Since things have seemed to quiet down quite a bit, it seems like a good time to bust out a straight discussion post. This discussion idea was sent in by WiC reader Joe Blanche, he thinks it would be fun to discuss which episode GRRM will decide to write for season one (assuming it is picked up of course). And I agree with him.
Personally I haven’t given the topic much thought. But after dwelling on it a bit, I think it is an interesting one. First off, it kind of requires a breakdown of where we think each episode may start and end. And then from there, choosing which one might appeal to Martin the most.
There are also some intriguing side questions. Such as, do you think Martin will invent new scenes in his scripted episode or stick with what he has already related to us in the books? Or maybe he won’t invent totally new scenes but add a few things that only fans of the books would pick up on. Possibly even throwing in new clues to some long standing mysteries, such as the story behind Jon’s parentage. That would be something that I would love to see as it means that we would be getting something other than just the books acted on screen. We’d be getting a companion piece to the actual books themselves.
So what does everyone think? What part of A Game of Thrones will Martin choose to script and why? And do you think he will add anything or stick strictly to the source?
255 Comments
FIRST
bolufromthesooQuote Reply
Second!
and Jon & Tyrion on the Wall, absolutely.
JuhanQuote Reply
Whatever it is, I bet it will be a script that has a lot of Tyrion in it, because Tyrion is his favorite character to write. So, Jon and Tyrion at the Wall would be a good choice (Ep. 3 most likely, no?). It could also be Tyrion's whole trip to the Eyrie (I imagine that might be spread over two episodes, though).
Of course, whatever else happens around these sections will be a part of it too, but I'm focusing on the Tyrion chapters he might be interested in doing.
BrudeQuote Reply
THE Eddard episode. The one featuring the steps of Baelor's Sept.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
The one with Tyrion at the Vale of Arryn would be my guess. I think he would want to avoid anything connected with Bran as he said he was having biggest difficulties writing his chapters.
gabalQuote Reply
Is he only going to write one?
I would of thought he would be involved heavily in the scripting of the first few episodes and then probably write the last one by himself. This being the case so that he can control the middle episodes due to what is written in the first few.
SamQuote Reply
*SPOILER*
My guess would be part with Eddard at Robert's deathbed, followed by his betrayal by Littlefinger and usurpation by Cersei.
That part of the plot will be climactice, yet is filled with dialogue, machinations and skullduggery.
shadallionQuote Reply
I would think he'd like to write the episode that has Tyrion first meeting Shae. This also has a good battle scene with Tyrion, if my memory serves me.
As another poster mentioned above, the scene with Ned at Baelor's Sept is certainly a likely candidate.
FalconGK81Quote Reply
Jamie capturing Ned in Kings Landing right before he is killed. There is alot going on here, and it is a pretty climatic moment in the book.
RobertQuote Reply
Brude beat me to it. Have to agree with Jon and Tyrion at the wall (probably including the new recruits taking the oath?) and Tyrion coming and going from the Vale strike me as the most likely.
As an acrophobe I can't wait to get the bejeezus scared out of me with the sky cell scenes.
gofalconsQuote Reply
Hi guys, I've posted here before, but anonymously. Personally, I think George should direct the season finale. *SPOILER
You know, the scenes of dragons being born, Robb being proclaimed King in the North, it's climactic in every sense of the word.
And on a side note, if you're interested, you could visit my ASOIAF gallery on gorangligovic.deviantart.com
Nothing special, but it may help keep waiting for the news more bearable :)
gorangligovicQuote Reply
*SPOILERS*
I think it all depends on how where GRRM wants to have the most impact.
If he wants to set the tone early on, then Jon and Tyrion on the wall would make a lot of sense.
If he wants to be certain Tyrion gets the correct treatment, he may choose the episode where Tyrion outwits Lysa by choosing trial by combat, as it's the first time he wins big, in my opinion. Depending on how they frame it, him winning over the mountain clans may be a part of that as well.
Still, I can't help but think he may choose the last episode. It's such a make-or-break point for some people. *SERIOUSLY GUYS, SPOILERS* The appearance of the dragons really worked for me, but it could have easily gone south. It was his writing that made the scene work, rather than going cheesy. It's the grand finale that leaves you wanting a second season. I don't know if he'd be comfortable leaving that in anyone else's hands.
*END SPOILERS*
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I think he will write script to the first episode after pilot.
chronardaQuote Reply
I don't know, but I really do hope that whichever he chooses, he does add in a few extra scenes.
See, the additional scenes that Benioff and Weiss put in are just additional scenes for the TV series, not necessarily related to the books, whereas anything that GRRM adds in could, I would assume, be considered canon. So if he adds in additional Jon/Tyrion scenes, or Ned/Catelyn scenes, or Robb/Bran scenes, or whatever, we might actually get some more real information about the plot and the characters and the dynamics than we already have.
Make any sense?
SilverstarQuote Reply
Oooh, gorangligovic beat me to it.
The other thing I wanted to add is that is that as a former TV writer, GRRM is going to have a head of what works and what doesn't in the translation between the novel and the show. So, I think that there's a really good chance that we'll see more things shifted around and more things added. Since we spend a lot of time in the character's heads in the novel, some things will have to be shown to an audience. I'm thinking that when they are, some things are going to be seen as unnecessary by those of us who have read the books, but that could be because we already know them.
Oh, and if you're so inclined, I recommend clicking the The Men That Stare at Goats ad if it appears on the right. Winter probably gets some money for it and it was actually pretty damn funny.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
on a TV screen, the plausibility of dragons depends more on CGI then on writing, I think…
JuhanQuote Reply
the finalé, obviously. for two reasons:
1. any deviations that D&D implement along the way can be handed off to GRRM for consideration and ease of writing.
2. it's going to be one of the more stunning finalés in tv drama history. who better to do the honors than the creator of the characters himself?
not only do i think he'll write the finalé, but i also think they'll have a PR blitz for it, making a story out of his contribution, and hopefully ADwD will be out, and the show will be a hit, so people will care who GRRM is. america's tolkien of course.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Tyrion talking his way out of the Vale (with Bronn's help).
k26dpQuote Reply
*SPOILERS – DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED A GAME OF THRONES*
I'm still paranoid about people who haven't read the whole book coming here and having the ending ruined.
As far as CGI being more important, I disagree. Crafting the pacing of how they're introduced, outlining what exactly is shown, and writing the reactions of those in attendance is going to play a big part in how they're accepted.
If it's done well, you won't notice that the writing had any part of it, but it is very important.
Also, not to branch off of the discussion, but I'm not convinced they're going to go completely CGI with the dragons. I don't know if they'll be able to get the amount of realism needed for it, no matter how good the writing is.
*SPOILERS*
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Slightly off-topic but the one thing that no-one has mentioned is that with GRRM writing an episode that's just ANOTHER delay for DANCE.
He really is not going finish the series
nazaradineQuote Reply
It seems likely to me that the showrunners probably write the season finale. Keep in mind that the SHOW is Beniof and Weiss' baby – not GRRM's. I'm sure they will value his input and strive to match his vision and creation as much as possible but in the end the show will go how they want it too.
I think that GRRM will probably choose a character based inner episode with lots of character development and interaction. It is also possible that Benioff and Weiss may ask him to do a key episode that has a lot of character turns in which the person who knows all the characters so intimately and where they're eventually going could do it better than anybody else.
Moreover, the finale is just all the dominos falling down – the intricate and delicate part is in the set up anyway.
CurtisQuote Reply
Curtis, I honestly think that if you put D&D and GRRM in separate rooms and asked them to rank the shows they'd most like to do, the finale would top both lists.
I was approaching this from the idea that we were guessing based on GRRM getting his choice out of all the episodes.
If it's a question of what episode would D&D would ask GRRM to do based on where they think he was most needed, then I think you're correct.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I agree with legion about the scene with Ned on the steps. If the season's going to be 12 episodes, then probably the one just before lst, ending with a certain light-headed character.
amir mishaliQuote Reply
oops, /*last*/
amir mishaliQuote Reply
Off topic: I read one of the earlier Wolverine Origins drafts online, and I'm beginning to think Benioff has a thing for red-headed whores :P
On Topic: I agree with something heavily character based. I would love to see him write the finale but it could be more benficial to have him set up some of the character development so the finale is as emotional/kick-ass as we want it to be.
JillianQuote Reply
You know, Amir, Legion, it would be somewhat poetic for him to pen at particular chapter, given Ned's advice to Bran at the beginning of the book.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
It's true – often the most important episode in a tightly written 12 episode season is the eleventh – you need just the right balance of escalating the tension, not peaking too early and getting the viewers anxious for the finale.
CurtisQuote Reply
How about he finishes the f-ing book series before he writes a flippin' episode.
T. W. AndersonQuote Reply
I expect we'll hear a lot of that sentiment.
The short answer is that he can do whatever the hell he wants.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Moreover, writing an hour long television episode that is coming pretty much directly from the source really isn't going to take that long.
1 page of script translates to about 1 minute of screen time
CurtisQuote Reply
T. W. Anderson: George R. R. Martin is not your b-tch. He can write whatever he freakin' well pleases. (Although his editor may have other ideas, and some basis for insisting that he is, in fact, her b-tch….)
entomologistQuote Reply
I don't mean to be completely flip about this, I just had a flashback to the people who were complaining that his involvement with the casting was taking time from his finishing the book, too. His show is getting made into a series. He's going to be as involved as he can be. I originally was going to lay out why this is a good thing, but honestly, whether or not it benefits us is irrelevant. I can be patient for the book. People are concerned the show will get past AFfC and he won't be done in time. Honestly, that's a problem I'd love to have.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@PaulGude re:"Still, I can't help but think he may choose the last episode. It's such a make-or-break point for some people."
I think this is an excellent point. I actually hated the ending to GoT, because it seemed so out of place to the rest of the books, with the magical birthing of dragons from stone eggs. I only kept reading the series because someone explained to me that it would all make sense if I kept reading. **SPOILERS** And I agree, it makes much more sense when you learn that the rebirth of Dragons brings magic back into the world, and that Dany is a prophesied "AA reborn" (my own opinion, I know some debate this). Anyways, I agree that the finale may need to be done carefully to not lose people.
FalconGK81Quote Reply
@TWAnderson re:"How about he finishes the f-ing book series before he writes a flippin' episode."
You know, I went through a phase of feeling like this. You eventually get numb to it. I do sympathize with you. However, as pointed out by others, GRRM is in fact NOT our bitch. *SIGH*
FalconGK81Quote Reply
If I had to chose, I know I would pick an episode where there is a lot of Tyrion inside. It has been mentioned before that he is probably his favourite character (very much deserved – Tyrion is an amazing character!).
What I don't think is, that we will get any previews on Jon's parentage. I think that it'll turn out that it's a turning point to the story to finally know who his mother (and father?) is and therefore I think it unlikely that it'll be revealed earlier in the tv series…
Ms. FQuote Reply
Ms. F, I agree in a lot of ways. The one thing I think could happen is that some little clues are thrown in that fans of the books will catch that others won't. They could be something minor, like a character from one of the later books appearing briefly in a scene, but I think Winter may be onto something. It's very possible that in at least one episode there's going to be a hint or a clue that is going to make boards like this go completely crazy. Nothing need be explicitly said, in fact it may be better if it isn't, but rather just a tiny nudge towards something. I don't know if they'll be able to resist.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Tyrion in the Vale is at least three episodes:
(1) Catelyn and Tyrion at the inn; then she drags him up to the Vale.
(2) Tyrion's "trial"
(3) Tyrion heads back down, and encounters the mountain clans.
I think that you'd need an episode break between 1 and 2, and between 2 and 3.
Either 2 or 3 as a GRRM episode would be great. Depends on what else is happening in, say, Kings Landing, the Wall and with Dany during the same episode.
I think you'd have to ask what content you would want to be in the episode from all four of the major story arcs (Catelyn/Dany, Kings Landing, the Wall, Dany). For example, what stuff from the Wall would you want GRRM to write– the fight with the wight in the tower? Probably not, that's more of an action sequence than something that you need your best writer for. Maybe something like the introduction of Sam, or perhaps one of the scenes that involves the recruits talking to each other or to Alliser Thorne.
Dennis BrennanQuote Reply
His father is rhaegar and his mother is lya.
nets97531Quote Reply
I just wish he'd finish the damn book…growing ever impatient with the delay …he's got enough distraction going on….my vote is fir the bridge episode(the finale)
coltaine777Quote Reply
@TWAnderson re:"How about he finishes the f-ing book series before he writes a flippin' episode."
You know, he's been working hard on it right now. We've gotten a few updates on it's progress (and he does seem to be making progress) so get off his case. Maybe working on the show has renewed his passion for the series overall.
I was thinking probably the final episode will be the one he writes but I also like the idea of the one of Tyrion at the Vale.
RaynetteQuote Reply
@nets97531 (and everyone else)
Am I the only one who doesn't believe R+L=J?
Sorry to get off topic but nets started it. :P
gofalconsQuote Reply
I had an interesting thought recently.
Like a decent obssesive fan lol
Let's try to make the "episodes" from start to finish.
And to locate the most interesting points where one epizode could finish.
For exemple: the first after the pilot aka second: Will finish with "rise" – His name is Summer, in the opposite of the pilot, where we will have the "fall" in the end.
Back on topic…there to many interseting scenes in which I would like to have GRRM, it is very hard to me to decide. Maybe his intervention in the "prophecy part" of the series.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Whoa rabbit, you lost me there in the middle. I admit it's been awhile since I read AGOT but I really don't know what you're talking about.
gofalconsQuote Reply
What rabbit means is the first episode ends with Bran falling and *spoiler* the second one should end when Bran wakes up and names his wolf.
RaynetteQuote Reply
It is probablz because of mz bad english…i Am not a native speaker, but I am so eager to discuss..lol
Bran is waking after the comma, he had that "dream" about 3 eyed crow..and then he suddenly decide to name his Direwolf Summer.
It seems to me that this scene would make wonderful contrast with the end of the pilot. The things I do for love and Bran's fall.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Like a lot of people, the finale was my first thought. A Tyrion-heavy episode could be more likely, though, given GRRM's preference for him. Of course, if the pilot is any indication, most/all episodes will probably cover parts of at least a couple plotlines. Seems like they wouldn't want to go too long without checking in on a given character, and wouldn't want any given plotline getting too far ahead of another.
As for R+L=J, I think it's hard to argue that it's not the most likely scenario, but at the same time I really don't think there's enough evidence to say it's absolutely, definitely true. This is my stance on most of the predictions floating around, though one or two I'm a bit more sure of due to statements from GRRM.
On George needing to focus on ADwD… If he tried to write that all the time, he'd probably get so incredibly hung up on it that he wouldn't be able to write it at all. Writing an episode of AGoT is probably the BEST thing he can do, since it's still ASoIaF and might get the juices flowing better. Plus, as stated, GRRM is not our bitch. That said, I guess it's a lot better to vent here than to spam his Livejournal and/or email and piss him off.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Sorry, Sorry, I did not make SPOILER warning.
Always forget that there may be people here who have not red the books.
The rabbitQuote Reply
You are right Demokritos… about there not being enough evidence to be certain about R and L. And it would be the first time that something that important to the story where that obvious :D GRRM always suprises me, so maybe his thoughts go into and entirely different direction :D
Ms. FQuote Reply
@Raynette and Rabbit
thanks for clearing that up for me. Yes that part of the story does make for an excellent counter-point to the end of the pilot.
gofalconsQuote Reply
http://grrm.livejournal.com/
Soory but I can not remeber how to put a link, and I going to sleep.
But there is a new post on GRRMs blog.
Some new roles are filled, but no clues..
Dorgo and Bran has not been cast yet, that is for sure.
Good night to everyone!
The rabbitQuote Reply
Drogo, of course, not Dorgo.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Cool, more treats from the master. Good to be update, even if without any specifics.
Has anyone divided the story arc into 12 episodes yet?
MarkoQuote Reply
Seeing as I started it…I should explain why.
We can all agree that Eddard Stark shows impeachable behavior and it was egregiously out of his demonstrated character to father a bastard. We also know that Lya was captured by Rhaegar and that Jon looks like Arya who in turn looks like Lya (Eddard says so). We also know from the first book that Lya dies in the tower but before that while she lays on the bed filled with blood (midwifery was called the secrets of the bloody bed by Danaerys or Mirri Maz Duur). We also know this request haunts Eddard and still punishes him. Seeing as Rhaegar loves/lusts after lya its fair to say that after she disappears with him (abduction or elope is never specified but it is treated as abduction) something happens…So I think that the promise was to raise her child born on the "bed of blood" as his bastard without anyone's
nets97531Quote Reply
Hey, reality check: I think R+L=J is only obvious to obsessive fans. The clues that lay it out span 3 books and are easily missed unless you're looking, which, if it weren't for the Internet, would surely require at least two readings.
Personally, I find it to be one of the most satisfying deceptions in literature for its deftness, its plausibility and its profound impact on the overall story.
What I wanna know is: Who the eff is Tansy???? lol
HKCavalierQuote Reply
So, I'm assuming the newest one cast is the offer that was mentioned in the last casting update. Offers to several more seems promising too. looks like things are coming together.
JillianQuote Reply
I've tried breaking it down to 12 episodes, more than once, and it didn't really work with what we have on paper right now. Unless they A. add portions from A Clash of Kings, B. put significant time in flashbacks (I only want a few) or C. create new scenes altogether (which I would prefer) … all I can come up with is ten episodes – and only nine if we're looking at good cliffhangers.
The U.S. softcover version of AGoT has 807 pages. The leaked script covers the first 108 pages, minus 12 for the Tyrion chapter that's been left for the next episode. So 96 pages are covered in the pilot, which means you can approximate anywhere from 90 to 100 pages per TV episode, which is more than the book has (and don't forget they added scenes already to the pilot). Chapter wise, if they want some semblance of cliffhanger every week, I would end the episodes thus:
Episode 2 – ends at page 175: [Petyr holds up the dagger] "The Imp," said Littlefinger as Lord Varys watched her [Catelyn's] face. "Tyrion Lannister."
Episode 3 – ends at page 236: "Khaleesi, you are with child." "I know," Dany told her. It was her fourteenth name day.
Episode 4 – ends at page 322: [after Ser Hugh is killed by GREGOR in the Hand's Tournament, questions lead to Jon Arryn's death, Ned asks ...] "What was he doing that they had to kill him?" "Asking questions," Varys said, slipping out the door.
Episode 5 – ends at page 422: "I'll stand for the dwarf," Bronn called out.
Episiode 6 – ends at page 522: The direwolf trotted to him. Jon heard Samwell Tarley's sharp intake of breath. "Gods be good," Dywen muttered. "That's a hand."
Episode 7 – ends at page 637: Varys says: "…or he could bring you your daughter's head. The choice, my dear lord Hand, is entirely yours." (this is a little long – but the best cliffhanger in my view)
Episode 8 – ends at page 715: [Dany is sick with fever and about to give birth] The shapes, she [Dany] screamed. The dancers! Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.
Episode 9 – ends at page 807: [Dany] … the night came alive with the music of dragons.
Cliffhanger wise, I only got nine episodes.
Now … I'm hoping more is added, more substance, and maybe an extra cliffhanger or two.
I'd love to see what other people come up with!
About Yea HighQuote Reply
Oh, and every clue I've gone over points to R+L=J. In my honest opinion, I think the only thing that would prevent that reveal is the author actually changing his mind.
Or he really, really, really fooled us from the onset. It would have to be brilliantly clever though.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
About Yeah High did a much better job than I did capturing what an actual episode might look like. I just tried to figure out how you could space out the events.
1) Plot in pilot script
2) Results of Bran's fall, Eddard travels south, Tyrion and Jon travel North, and arrive to see the wall beset by problems. Assassination attempt, dagger recovered. Dany and Drogo travel to the Dothraki sea.
3) Catelyn travels to King's landing and meets Petyr, who says he lost dagger in bet to Tyrion. Benjen disappears. Jon vs. Allister, wins over recruits. We reach the Dothraki sea.
4) Catelyn and retainers encounter Tyrion in an inn. He is taken captive. More Jon vs. Allister. Dany is pregnant.
5) Jon befrends Samwell Tarly. Tyrion and Catelyn travel to the Eyrie, and he is placed on trial. Viserys is crowned.
6) Tyrion outwits Lysa to win his freedom in trial by combat when Bronn kills Lysa's champion. Jon becomes a brother, learns he is a steward. There is an assassination attempt on Dany. Drogo declares war. Eddard learns the secret of Queen Cersei's children.
7) Jon and Sam say their vows. Spurning the advice of Robert's youngest brother Renly to take Cersei into custody, Eddard instead tries mercy by offering Cersei the chance to flee. Jon and Sam carry the corpses back. Drogo is wounded during the raid on the Lhazareen
8) King Robert dies of a hunting mishap engineered by Cersei, and Cersei's eldest son Joffrey is proclaimed King before Eddard can pass the crown to Stannis, Robert's true heir. The corpses come to life. Drogo dies.
9) Jon kills the wright. Eddard moves against the Lannisters and is betrayed by Littlefinger. Dany tries to bring Drogo back.
10) Eddard reluctantly agrees to declare a false confession of treason in return for Sansa and Arya's lives and the chance to go into exile on the Wall. Joffrey promises Sansa that he will show mercy, then reverses course and has Eddard brutally executed. While Sansa is retained in custody, Arya escapes with the help of Yoren, a recruiting agent for the Night's Watch. Dany takes over role as leader.
11) War of Five Kings erupts. Tywin attacks Riverrun. Robb Stark leads northmen agains Jaime Lannister. A deal is made with House Frey. Jon learns of Ned's death, gets Longclaw. Daenerys loses her child.
12) Battle of Green Fork, Tyrion joins Tywin. Jaime captured. Riverrun freed. Tywin falls back to Harrenhal, orders Tyrion to go to King's Lading. Renly flees, declares himself king. Robb Stark is declared King in the North. Jon rides away but is brought back. The funeral pyre, and all that entails.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Also, I apologize for any factual errors. Not having my copy of A Game of Thrones with me, I'm working from memory and wikipedia's breakdown of the book. Not the most accurate of resource materials. I don't know if the scene with Jon leaving and returning is in the first book or not, I just think it fits with the final episode.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@About Yea High
Those sound like pretty good possibilities. Obviously, they can't all be right since it only comes out to 9, but I bet a few are. Not sure I'd put the Bronn scene as a cliffhanger, personally, as I think that would work better if we get his announcement and the fight in one episode, with Tyrion's fate in general having been a (rather literal) cliffhanger earlier. I'm not a TV writer and admit to not having paid special attention to how often episodes end in cliffhangers, but I think to keep the story flowing evenly you probably don't want a cliffhanger every single episode. You want to start with one, and throw more in pretty often, but sometimes you probably need to give the viewer a little bit of instant gratification and rely on the continuing unresolved plot elements to bring them back for the next episode. AGoT has plenty of those, so it should be a strong motivator once a few have been introduced. It seems like otherwise the story would feel a bit disjointed, especially for people who haven't read the books. They don't know what's coming, and between one episode and the next might forget some details, unlike with a book where you can just keep reading and/or flip back a bit if you forget something. I think I like your cliffhangers for 2 and 4 best, and having cliffhangers early on seems like a good idea as well, since fewer long-term mysteries are introduced and the viewers aren't juggling as much information already. Anyway, I wonder if they might split the endings up so that we get the last Dany scene at the end of episode 11 and Eddard's last scene in 12?
DemokritosQuote Reply
@HKCavalier
**SPOILERS**
Tansy is a woman's name, but it is also the name of a flower used to make tansy tea, which if drunk, will give a woman an abortion, essentially.
Reread the scene with Hoster, and tell me if this jives:
Petyr slept with Lysa. Lysa gets pregnant. Hoster will not allow Lysa to marry Petyr. Hoster forces Lysa to drink tansy tea. Lysa cries and cries, and Hoster promises that Lysa will marry someone better and will have lots more kids.
Of course, Lysa does not have lots more kids; the tansy tea likely damaged her fertility. Hoster is saying "tansy" on his deathbed because he regrets what he did to Lysa (and is possibly one of the reasons Lysa left Riverrun and never returned).
manydillsQuote Reply
I think Martin should write episode that would fulfill these two criteria:
1. Early enough in the series so that there would be little room for quality divergence.
2. It should be an episode that has a lot of character interaction (it need not to be a major event episode, certainly not the last one).
Perhaps capturing of Tyrion, the tournament, council session, Eddard + Varys + Littlefinger?
VladimirQuote Reply
**SPOILER ALERT**
What I always want to know is how R+L=J actually matters much except for poetic power? I mean, even IF it's true, it doesn't materially change anything, it seems to me.
Even if it's true, Jon is a man of the Night's Watch and thus prevented from marrying and fathering children to pass along his father's bloodline.
Even if it's true, Jon is at MOST a Rivers instead of a Snow. L+R were not married, so Jon is not legitimate. Given that, he's also not the heir to anything… which would be blocked in any case by his oaths to the NW, which he takes very seriously.
The most, I think, that his parentage could make him is a natural attractor to the dragons (maybe the black one, ha!) and thus a future rider. And there are a LOT of candidates for 'the three heads of the dragon' apart from him, IMO.
SlyQuote Reply
"Slightly off-topic but the one thing that no-one has mentioned is that with GRRM writing an episode that's just ANOTHER delay for DANCE."
This is why I think it will be last episode of the season or the second-to-last. He won't need to write the script for a late-season episode until after ADWD is completed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote the episode between finishing ADWD and TWoW as a kind of break, but one that keeps him still in the SoIaF universe.
Actually, now thinking about it, if they're not filming until April/May at the earliest, then they might not need a final draft of even the second episode until January or so, giving him a good month or two to work on it (assuming ADWD is completed before the end of November).
"L+R were not married"
No evidence they weren't. Targaryens can take more than one wife. And the Night's Watch is only relevant whilst the Wall still stands. If it collapses and the Others pour in Westeros*, the Night's Watch by extension has failed and the oaths become irrelevant, at which point Jon can do what he wants.
* Which is almost certain to happen unless the series is going to end with the lead Other getting to the Wall, prodding it, realising they can't cross and says, "Bugger! Okay boys, time to go home!"
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
@Adam Whitehead
On Martin: Not sure if the number of the episode will matter much: I think it's been said by people who know what they're talking about that the episodes will all be shot in quick succession. I'm guessing they may also want all the scripts done before filming starts, if possible and/or George's script before they do much more writing, since his status as creator could mean others work around him. Hopefully George's current estimate for completion (This month or the next) is at least near the mark, though, in which case he'll be writing his episode after ADwD regardless.
On R+L=J: It seems a bit unlikely that Lyanna and Rhaegar got married. It is possible they stopped at a small church or monastery before heading to the tower, but in the absence of evidence FOR this, the (slightly) safer assumption is that they didn't. That said, Jon wouldn't JUST be a Rivers instead of a Snow. We know bastards can be made heirs, and that lineage is not always as clear cut as the rules make it seem (Dornish plot to put Myrcella on the Iron Throne, for example.) Someone who doesn't have a legitimate claim can usurp someone who does if they have the biggest army. That said, I doubt Jon would make an attempt on the Iron Throne or any other high position. He could still serve as a rallying point against his will, though.
As for the wall falling, it seems very likely, but I do think it's possible the Others might be defeated at the wall, or simply find a way through it while leaving the wall intact as the best place to stop them. Even if the wall falls, I don't think there's any reason to think the Night's Watch would be officially disbanded. Most of them would probably desert, but my guess is that Jon would stick with his vows until he dies, or the threat is gone for good. Possibly if it turns out Robb named him as his heir. He is Eddard's son at heart, if in no other way.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Now I've got my book, I realize that there's a lot that happens that make good TV that won't necessarily be the major plot points. My breakdown didn't address any of these.
Here's an example of a possible episode two:
Episode 2: Tyrion, the Hound, and Joff discuss Bran's death. Tyrion hits Joff. Tyrion speaks of visitng the wall to Cersei and Jamie. Catlyn disses Jon. Jon gives Arya needle. Ned and Robert discuss the Dothraki. Jon and Tyrion have a chat where Snow attacks Tyrion. Dany and Drogo arrive at the Dothraki sea. We see the beauty of the land contrasted with Dany having a *really* bad time. (p 228 in the mass markt paperback) Robb and Catelyn's conversation is interrupted by a fire. An assassin comes to kill Bran, but Catelyn fights him off until Summer comes and bites out the assassin's throat. "Thank you," she whispers. The wolf licks the blood off of Catelyn's hand and lies beside Bran. Catelyn laughs hysterically.
End of Episode Two.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
One flaw: Very little Ned.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I think the most obvious way to solve that problem is a scene with Ned before the Tyrion scene. It seems as if we skip from Bran to Tyrion to Jon to Dany and never really see Ned react to Bran's fall. Is that correct?
Paul GudeQuote Reply
We never do see Ned's initial reaction, though he's pretty stoic, all in all. Still, throwing a small bone to Bean and adding a small reactive scene is nice.
That's a pretty small chunk of the book to be covered in one episode, though. I think some of those scenes would go faster than you think.
I don't see the story moving very quickly if the only really intense scene is Bran and Catelyn being attacked in the bedroom. I think episode two should have the Arya / Joff / Sansa fight as well.
Also, you would have Ned killed two episodes from the end?
If that's not going to be a season-ending shocker, I would probably at least leave it for the end of the second-to-last episode.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
Guys,
I would say it's very possible that even if they were not technically married, it was consentual as the presence of the three most important kingsguard suggests some type of warm feeling from rhaegar towards Lyanna. One that normally would come from a rapist to a rapee
nets97531Quote Reply
From the amount of stuff that happens after Ned's death, I'd say you couldn't have it in the last episode. It would have to go in as the cliffhanger to Episode 12. If you really wanted to, you could even move "THE KING IN THE NORTH!" to the start of Season 2 and have Ned's death as the season ending-moment, but I think Dany's dragons is a far more effective moment, as it is in the book.
It's also a great game of one-upmanship. "You thought we couldn't better last week's ending? Ha!"
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
@nets97531
I do think it was probably consentual, but the presence of the Kingsguard could have been to keep Lyanna in as much as to keep others out.
DemokritosQuote Reply
*SPOILER*
I really think that you can't have Ned's death at the very end. As much as it is a really shocking moment, you really can't leave people with an entire break between seasons wondering what the show is going to be like with the "main character" dead, which is exactly what I think it would feel like if Ned dies right at the end. I think we need to see how his death is the lead-in for everything falling apart, and then see the rise of the new group of players at the end.
*END SPOILERS*
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Oh, and AYH, if the assassination attempt was the act break, you could have the Arya/Joff fight and end at the wall, I suppose, depending on pacing.
Plus, some really big stuff was left out of my breakdown above, like the tournament.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Ack, no. Killing Ned off at the end of the season is wrong dramatically, because the WHOLE POINT of his death in the book is how unexpected and unprepared for it was, and how it sends everyone into a tailspin–it's about aftermath. The stuff that comes after, all the desperate jockeying for position, the panic, etc.–ALL that has to come directly on the heals of Ned's death in a swirl of shock and chaos. Because Ned's death is not built up to, it is not the climax of the action–it's the opposite, it's the wrench thrown into everyone's plans and we need to see them scramble. Put Ned's death at the end of the season and you need to rev all that up from scratch at the top of the next season after the audience has had close to a year to deal with it. No.
Also, if you put it at the end of the season you run the risk of giving Ned fans NOTHING to come back for. You need to give them something immediately, show the impact of his death on his world, maybe even give us hope, slim as it may be, that some sort of justice may be coming. Put Ned's death at the end of the season and you just might kill the series along with him.
The best damn series HBO has ever created can certainly have more than one major climactic event per season. Let lesser shows save their paltry allotment of wonder for their season finales, GoT is in a whole 'nother league! :)
HKCavalierQuote Reply
Curse ye, Paul Gude, ye've stolen me thunder, says I! Stolen the wits from out me brains and spilt them prematurely-wise upon the Interwebz!
Curse ye, and curse this cross-posting!
HKCavalierQuote Reply
[SCRIPT-BUILDING - SPOILERS ABOUND]
Hm, I'm going to agree then, and say you all have the right of it; Dany's dragons and "King in the north!" are emotive enough.
Put Ned's death at the end of the second to last episode. It will shock.
We still have the problem of making this a 12-part story. Let's see if we can't wrangle up a few more awesomesauce episode endings; if not cliffhangers, then high points in the story.
One might be:
"Make him fly," Robert said eagerly.
Lysa stroked her son's hair. "Perhaps we will," she murmured. "Perhaps that is just what we will do."
That could be a classic Pull-Back-And-Up-And-Away from the Aerie shot at the end, pulling straight out of the moon door. It's been done before, but … I wouldn't mind that pull away shot of the Aerie.
Something we can also toy with is shifting certain scenes for room, especially ones that aren't time constrained. like Jon at the Wall or anything with Daenerys.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
Yeah, AYH. Since they've already done it with the wedding in the pilot, I'm going to bet that there'll be a lot of that happening.
HKC – Sorry 'bout that. I think you said it much better than I could have.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Lyanna probably wasn't raped. There's bits at the Harrenhal tourney (IIRC) where it's indicated that she was attracted to Rhaegar, and Rhaegar probably took that 'fire and ice' thing very seriously.
Bear in mind that you're looking at it from Robert's view, and he was so obsessed with Lyanna that the thought of her willingly going to another man would have been intolerable.
Errant VentureQuote Reply
IMO, Tyrion's in good hands, I don't think GRRM will pick a tyrion episode specifically.
## SPOILERS AHOY! ##
I think he'll pick an episode with a dramatic death(s), in order to maximise its effectiveness.
My first though was Ned on the steps of Baelor's Sept. Second was the fall of Ned's forces within the red keep, Arya's last needlework lesson with Syrio etc. In fact, I hope he writes the latter, that would be my best pick for him :) (though, I think it will more likely be the former. That pivotal episode, scripted byGRRM himself would be a huge draw to fans).
With regard to not showing Ned's death, or showing it in the second to last episode, IMO it should be in the last episode, no question. It works in the books, and works magnificently. I understand that the screen is a different medium, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it :)
## END SPOILISM ##
JamesQuote Reply
@James
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Why is the scene on the steps being shown at the end of episode 11 different the books? After all, there's a bunch of other stuff going on after that particular scene. If you show it in episode 12, you'll have to put it at the beginning of the episode, and that, IMO, just wouldn't work.
amir mishaliQuote Reply
I'm pretty sure the steps will not be the last episode. Lots of important stuff transpires after that and I don't think much of it can be reduced. Not sure whether it would better fit in one or two episodes, depending on that the steps might be in episode 10 or 11.
The nine cliffhangers by About Yea High could be used, perhaps most of them … a lot happens inbetween sometimes, though, so with some fleshing out and potential shuffling you get more episodes, these without dramatic endings – but that's what you want; as some have already pointed out, you shouldn't end each and every episode with a cliffhanger. Anyways, it will be interesting to see how they deal with that, we can't even come close compared to the masters of the craft that they are.
MarkoQuote Reply
@ amir mishali – I had (perhaps erroneously) assumed that each series would be 10 episodes. If this is not the case, I'll endeavour to check my information more accurately before posting in future.
I think of it as being part of the last sequence in aGoT; for me, it was always the emotional climax of the first book. IMO it would make a better finalé than penultimate episode, whether the incident occurs the beginning or the end.
JamesQuote Reply
I don't know if GRRM would *have* to write it, but it would sure be cool to have an episode where they break off from the main action and tell The Hedge Knight story. Maybe after a natural cliffhanger or breakpoint.
I used to think HBO should just do it as a short made-for-tv movie to warm people up for AGOT. But you could almost do it in 60 minutes of non-stop screen time with no commercial interruptions.
For those who have't read it, it's a little lighter-hearted Westeros story that happens about 75 years before the ASOIAF timeline. But it does have GRRM's hallmark themes about struggling to live up to ideals in an un-idealistic world.
Do I think it'll happen? No. Once they've got their actors lined up and sets they'll just be rolling, as they should. You'd almost have to cast a Hedge Knight episode completely separately and have its own set. Though you could probably re-use a lot of whatever they come up with for the Tourney at King's Landing.
But a guy can dream.
jack_o_lantern85Quote Reply
James, I'm using the twelve episode mark because that's what's listed in Winter's FAQ:
http://winter-is-coming.blogspot.com/2009/08/game-of-thrones-faq.html
*SPOILER*
We all know that Ned's death is going to happen now that we've read the book, and so some people are remembering it as an emotional climax, a point to which we're all working. However, when we first read the book, things at that point were all lined up for things to go another way. Ned was going to take the black, and get reunited with Jon. Everyone was onboard with it. Then Joff messed up everyone's plans, and I don't know about you but I was taken by surprise. In retrospect it seems like the end of the book, but in first experience it wasn't a grand finale, it was an unexpected slaughter. The emotional impact was the shock and grief afterwards, and the story impact was things falling apart quickly after his death. Having his death happen earlier in the episode order means that viewers won't be expecting it at all, just like when the readers experienced it.
Again, to me another issue is that if you put Ned's death at the very end, some people will view the death of Ned not just as the end of the season, but the end of the series (for them). Putting it in context with the other events of the novel in the episode order would give you two additional episodes to prove to them that she show ain't over yet.
And like HKCavalier said, the final image in the book is still a damn fine way to close out the series.
*SPOILER*
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Spoilers (Of course):
After a bit of consideration, it seems to me like Ned's death may work best at the beginning of episode 12. Or possibly 11, I forget exactly how much needs to happen afterward and don't have the book handy. I know Amir already said he thinks it won't work, but it seems to me like it would make it more surprising and dramatic. They could set things up to where Varys convinces Eddard to confess the episode before, and the audience assumes this will happen next episode, and is relieved. Then next week rolls around, and like when we all read the book, they view Ned's execution with only a bit of trepidation, believing it will all work out. Then they are violently wrenched out of their complacency, and for the next 50 minutes they see all the show's characters wrenched out of theirs. I think this fits better with what HKCavalier says (which I agree with) about it not being led up to, but rather being a dramatic turning point that throws everything awry. It's a cause, not an effect, so it makes more sense to show what comes after right away, than to show it right after what comes before. It also seems like a cool idea to me to have a really big cliffhanger that the audience doesn't recognize as such until it's over.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Spoilers (for sure)
Man, Demokritos, I have to admit that I was advocating it happening earlier in the episode order, but that was because I was expecting it as the capper to an episode. Having it happen early in the actual episode is sheer genius. I'd even go so far as to say that if you did it that way, you may even be able to get away with holding out to the last episode. Ned gets killed, the war of five kings erupts, then dragons. If that was the last episode it would be like a hammer to the forehead, which could in fact make people wait months to see what happens next.
Well done, I say. Well done.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Paul Gude
Thanks for the compliment. Just popped into my head as a possibility, and reading what others were saying made it make a lot of sense to me.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Hrm.
I'm still thinking about the folks who don't know what's gonna happen next and back to my own first reading of the novel.
I really see Ned's death as a game changer, and that means you need to show the game ACTUALLY CHANGING after he dies. Y'know, up to that point you're just reading a pretty cool fantasy novel, you're not really thinking about medieval history at that point, you're thinking about dire wolves and prophecies and Others coming over the Wall. With Ned's death, you're ripped from the comforting conventions of fantasy literature into the real world of corruption and incompetence and plain wretched luck.
I really think the audience will be, you know, in shock for a while, and you want that shock to be happening DURING the season, not between seasons. You kill ol' Ned off two or even three–hell, four!–episodes before the end and those last few episodes will have EVERYONE watching–Did you see Game of Thrones last night? No, what happened? Holy shit, dude, you gotta check it out! Ned's death will create buzz, people–you know, a big ratings spike to warm the hearts of the execs and ensure a big budget for the Clash of Kings to come.
You cram it all into one episode with the dragons tacked on for good measure and I think it gets wasted, nearly lost in the shuffle. The harrowing coming down to earth and subversion of fantasy conventions that the event ushers in wouldn't have any time to take hold before we're up to our armpits in baby dragons! What are people gonna be talking about the next day, you think? Eddard's squalid demise, or the naked bald babe with a dragon on each arm?
It's a bad move, my friends. A bad move.
What I'm saying is that when I first read the book, Eddard's death was what turned GRRM from a good fantasy writer, to a g.d. genius. That turn of events made me sit up and pay attention–made me rethink the whole novel experience, just as it makes all the movers & shakers of Westeros rethink their next best moves in the Game of Thrones.
Not sure of the actual page count after Ned dies, but I remember that it FELT like the death came "somewhere in the middle" of the action and it made the rest of the novel both utterly thrilling and deeply scary because I knew at that point, no one was safe. Sweet Jesus Moroni! They just killed off Eddard Freakin' Stark and there are still 4 episodes left! Who they gonna kill now??? Juicy, juicy stuff, folks. Don't let some wall-eyed li'l hussy steal Ned's moment!
HKCavalierQuote Reply
I totally see you point here, HKC.
No matter which episode it's in, though, I want it towards the beginning of the episode.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
(Again, I'll still like it if it's at the end, but really really like the idea of it happening at a point in the show where something normally never happens.)
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@HKCavalier
Ned dies in the 5th Arya chapter, which is 66 out of 73 total chapters. I think you could put Ned's execution at the beginning of the second to last episode, or the end of the episode before it at earliest. Otherwise you'd be stretching too much out to fill the end of the season, unless they decide to wedge in some ACoK or something. I suppose they could also ignore Dany for awhile and catch up in a big splurge, but that seems like a bad move to me, and would probably be too disconnected from Eddard for people to really feel like it's a dangerous aftermath of that where anyone could die. It does seem like having Eddard's death and Dany's dragon thing in one episode might be concentrating the awesome a bit heavily in one episode, though. Perhaps they could have Eddard die at the start of eleven after having skipped the second to last Dany chapter, wrap up Westeros' plotlines for the most part in 11, and then cover the end of Dany's stuff in 12, with a couple loose ends at the Wall or some other non-King's-Landing place in Westeros thrown in to keep it from being totally disconnected from Eddard's death.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Oh, and back to the topic of the thread, what I'm hoping is that GRRM will be writing an episode with a fair helping of totally new scenes and dialogue to flesh out some portion of the story that George sees, in retrospect, as needing it. After all these years of going over the material, I'm sure there are bits he wishes he'd fleshed out and bits he lingered over that he'd like to tighten up.
I could see him really fleshing out Ned and Catelyn's scenes together, the story of their marriage–after all they are two of the biggest stars in the cast–flashbacks and such to ground their relationship–maybe put more meat on the bones of the whole John Snow deception. Maybe more doings with the Werewood and the Old Gods, Bran and his dreams and such, to take advantage of the visual medium of tv.
It's well known that a whole lot of fans can't stand Catelyn and I could really see GRRM wanting to make sure nothing like that happens with the show.
HKCavalierQuote Reply
@HKCavalier
That sounds like a really good call to me, both the idea of George adding things he's wished he'd put in in general, and the Eddard/Catelyn angle in particular.
DemokritosQuote Reply
When I was trying to make everything line up in the twelve episode breakdown above, I noticed that both the Wall and Dany/Drogo seemed a lot sparser. The one other thing with the Dany scenes is that there are some portions of it where even though it's one chapter a lot of time passes. In the book we sometimes see things happening at different rates for different POV characters. I'm wondering if, due to the immediacy of the visual experience in television and the stepping away from POV, that GRRM and D&D are going through the book and making sure that everything lines up a little closer chronologically. I'm wondering if they'll be adding more scenes with her, or having episodes where she doesn't appear at all. Otherwise, they seemed to be burning up a lot of her storyline pretty early.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I think it will definitely have Tyrion/Catelyn as the main arc….
BrianQuote Reply
[SPOILERS, et/al]
This is great stuff. I love these kinds of discussions.
So I've compiled a list of scenes that, in A Game of Thrones, took place after Ned's death:
- Arya witnesses her father's beheading (sort of) and is then taken away by Yoren of the Night's Watch. This could either be during the beheading scene or separate / after, depending on how they want to stretch it.
- Bran has a dream and goes down to the crypts where he finds Rickon and Shaggydog. Both dreamed of their father's death. Maester Luwen doesn't believe them until the raven arrives from King's Landing.
- Sansa is locked in the tower, traumatized by the remembrance of watching her father die. Her father's legs … that was what she remembered, her father's legs, how they'd jerked when Ser Ilyn … when the sword … She gets visited by Joffrey, beaten by Ser Meryn, taken to view her father's head, then beaten again. A lovely chapter.
- Daenerys has a fever dream and wakes to discover her unborn son is dead, and Drogo is (un)alive, courtesy of the maegi. Dany tries to make love to her husband in vain. She kills Drogo with a pillow over his face.
- Tyrion speaks with his father Tywin about some news: Jaime has been captured at Whispering Wood by Robb Stark and taken to Riverrun. Additionally, Renly has wed Margaery Tyrell, declared himself king, and is marching south. Tywin sends Tyrion to King's Landing. Have fun!
- Jon leaves the Wall with the intent of joining Robb. Hus Black Brothers catch him and bring him back. Mormont then reveals to Jon they will be going beyond the Wall.
- Catelyn visits her dying father at Riverrun. After, she joins the council assembled for Robb. The Greatjon delivers a stirring speech and the northmen declare Robb "King in the North!"
- Daenerys builds a pyre. On it she sets Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo's corpse, and her dragon eggs. She hops into the pyre herself and is reborn amidst fire and blood. And she has three new dragons to show for it; one black, one white, and one Hispanic (the el oh el courtesy of this blog).
Unfortunately, only one of the chapters that comes before Eddard's death would not be impacted by his fate, which is a Daenerys chapter that shows Drogo dying, Ser Jorah killing Quotho, and Mirri Maz Duur's creepy shadow spell. And if you moved the scene to follow Ned's death rather than precede it, you have three Daenerys scenes, which outweighs the others. Do-able, but … maybe not preferable.
However, the good news is this: the Tyrion chapter in which he talks to Tywin is chock full of information we can see rather than hear about:
Jaime and Robb fight in Whispering Wood. If they are going to show that scene (and I think they should), it needs to obviously come before the Tyrion scene – thus come during season 1.
Renly marries Margaery Tyrell. This would be an excellent scene to have in the last episode, just a glimpse perhaps, giving some foreshadowing of things to come, showing us Margaery, Mace, the Queen of Thorns, Left, Right, etc. Maybe a secret, wistful look passing between Loras and Renly.
Adding those and I could easily see Ned's death happening in the second-to-last episode — maybe even early on (shocking!).
Thoughts for any other scenes?
About Yea HighQuote Reply
Ned gets killed, the war of five kings erupts, then dragons.
Actually, the war has already started at that point, IIRC. (Can't check the book, I loaned it to my niece.) The battles of the Green Fork, the Whispering Woods, and the Camps (Robb lifting the siege of Riverrun) all took place between Ned's arrest and his execution. Were that not the case, you'd be right in your earlier chronology that at least two episodes would be needed after Ned's execution to cover the battles and all else that follows, but in fact, there's only one chapter from each major POV after Ned's death, showing how the different characters react to the news (except Arya, whose final POV chapter includes Ned's death, and Dany, who has two chapters, but doesn't hear anything about Ned and wouldn't care much if she did): Bran's ends with Maester Luwyn saying they'll need to find a sculptor who knows Ned's likeness; Sansa has the scene on the battlements with Joffrey forcing her to look at the heads; Dany recovers from her miscarriage, finds that Drogo is still breathing but in what modern medicine would call a permanent vegetative state, and gives him the gift of mercy with a pillow; Tywin learns of his forces' catastrophic defeats at Riverrun and dispatches Tyrion to King's Landing as Acting Hand of the King; Jon tries to desert, and his brothers bring him back to the Wall; and Catelyn witnesses Robb's lords proclaiming him King in the North. Then, finally, we cut back to Essos, where Dany recovers from her miscarriage, tries to awaken Drogo, gives up and smothers him, then sacrifices Mirri Maz Duur on his funeral pyre and hatches her dragons. Probably each of those chapters could be broken into 2-3 scenes interspersed through the episode, starting with Ned's execution and ending with the dragons.
There's a handy breakdown of the chapters here. There are a total of 72, plus the prologue, so a twelve-episode season really ought to cover six per episode. The pilot, however, includes eight, in addition to the prologue; a final episode that began with Ned's death would likewise cover eight, so maybe this isn't such a realistic scenario. In my next two posts, I’ll outline what a likely breakdown of the chapters into episodes might look like, with POV characters indicated by their first initial after the chapter number; I’ve moved a few chapters around for dramatic purposes, and I expect the producers will do the same.
entomologistQuote Reply
Pilot: Prologue, 1B, 2C, 3D, 4N, 5J, 6C, 7A, 8B. Most of us already know what happens in this one from the leaked script.
Episode 2: 9T, 10J, 11D, 12N, 13T, 14C. Tyrion finds Bran in the courtyard, reprimands Joff, notices Cersei and Jaime’s reaction to the news that Bran may recover, and decides to visit the wall. Jon visits Bran’s sickbed and Catelyn bitterly tells him, “it should have been you.” Dany is married to Drogo and receives her dragon eggs (actually, this may have been moved up to the pilot; I can’t remember for certain). Ned goes for a ride with King Robert; they discuss Daenerys and the pros and cons of making Jaime Lannister Warden of the East in place of Little Lord Robert Arryn. Jon, Benjen, and Tyrion ride north to the Wall. The episode ends with the assassination attempt on Bran (note that Bran's awakening does not coincide with this, but takes place chapter 17, from his own POV).
Episode 3: 15S, 16N, 17B, 19J, 18C. Arya has her run-in with Joff, Sansa refuses to contradict Joff’s lies about the incident, and Lady is consequently killed. Bran dreams of the three-eyed crow and the Heart of Winter, then wakes up to find himself crippled. Jon trains at the Wall, and learns that Benjen is missing and that Bran has awakened. Catelyn arrives in Kings Landing and meets up with Littlefinger, who tells her the lie that will lead to the War of Five Kings.
Episode 4: 20N, 21T, 22A, 23D, 24B. Ned learns of the disastrous state of the Crown’s finances, then meets with Catelyn and Littlefinger. Tyrion annoys Ser Alliser, talks with Lord Mormont about the Watch’s need for more men, and promises Jon he will do what he can to help Bran. Arya is discovered with Needle by her father, and begins training with Syrio. Dany adapts to life on the Dothraki Sea and defies Viserys for the first time in her life; her Dothraki bodyguard makes it stick, and Ser Jorah ignores Viserys command to strike her, bowing before her instead (GRRM was really going out of his way to draw parallels between Viserys and Joff, wasn’t he?). Dany and Drogo make love under the stars. Bran hears the story of the Long Night from Old Nan, gets the design for a cripple’s saddle from Tyrion, and meets Yoren, who passes through Winterfell on his way to King’s Landing, bringing the news that Benjen is missing and presumed dead. At the end of the episode, we learn that Dany is pregnant.
entomologistQuote Reply
Depending on how they do things, they could have Eddard dying as the very last scene.
I suspect they'll go dragons last, but they could do all that before, or as a fancy cinemagraphic thing cutting beetween the two scenes – Eddard dies/dragons emerge double sequence.
All the declaring and the Sansa beating could wait for a season premier for series 2.
In reality I would imagine Eddard will be penultimate, with dragons and decalrations as the last scenes (however, having the declarations as an over the credits fade out 'coming next season' moment could also work).
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Episode 5: 25N, 26J, 27N, 28C, 29S. Ned begins investigating Jon Arryn’s death, and what he might have been up to in his final days that could motivate someone to poison him. Sam Tarly is introduced, and befriended by Jon. Ned finds the book Jon Arryn was reading and the bastard Gendry, but doesn’t put the pieces together yet. Sansa watches the first day of the Tourney of the Hand and learns from the Hound how he got his facial scars. Catelyn seizes Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn. (I hope they have a good set for that inn, considering how it keeps cropping up in one book after another.)
Episode 6: 30N, 31T, 32A, 33N, 36D, 34C. Ned attends the second day of the Tourney, talks with Robert about the latter’s unhappy marriage to Cersei, sees Gregor unseated by Loras and the Hound stop his brother from murdering Loras, and has his conversation with Varys about Cersei’s desire to see her husband dead, and possible role in the death of Jon Arryn. Tyrion and Catelyn travel to the Vale, fighting off mountain men along the way, while Tyrion tries to convince Catelyn of his innocence. Arya chases cats, and overhears Varys plotting with Magister Illyrio in the bowels of the Red Keep, but her father dismisses her somewhat garbled rendition of their conversation. Robert learns of Dany’s pregnancy and demands her assassination, and Ned threatens to resign, but Littlefinger talks him out of it. Dany, Jorah, and Drogo discuss the feasibility of Dothraki invading the Seven Kingdoms, and Dany tries to make peace with her brother, then slaps him after he spits on her gift of Dothraki clothing. Catelyn arrives at the Eyrie, and Lysa and Little Lord Robert make their first disturbing appearance.
Episode 7: 35N, 37B, 38T, 39N, 41J, 40C,. Ned and Littlefinger visit a brothel and see Robert’s latest bastard, then are set upon by Jaime and his men on the way back to the Red Keep; Ned’s soldiers are killed and his leg broken. Bran is attacked by wildlings, resulting in the capture of Osha by Robb, Theon, and their hunting party. Tyrion spends some time in the Sky Cells. Ned and Robert argue about the fight with Jaime, and Robert threatens to make Jaime his Hand if Ned resigns the post. Jon and some of his fellow recruits are promoted, and Jon asks Maester Aemon to try to have Sam promoted too, so he won’t be left at the mercy of Ser Alliser without Jon and the others to protect him. Catelyn worries about Little Lord Robert’s upbringing and the repercussions of her capture of Tyrion. Bronn defeats Sir Vardis as Tyrion’s champion, and he and Tyrion depart the Eyrie.
Episode 8: 42T, 43N, 44S, 45N, 46D, 47N, 48J. Tyrion tells Bronn the story of his marriage to Tysha, then talks the wildlings into joining them instead of killing them. Ned learns of The Mountain’s raids on the Riverlands, and dispatches Lord Beric to and a force of the King’s soldiers to execute him. Sansa and Arya fight, Ned tells them to prepare for the journey back to Winterfell, and when Sansa protests that she wants to marry Joff and bear him beautiful blond children, Ned is struck by a sudden realization. Ned confronts Cersei with the truth about her incest-born bastards, and she mocks him for his lack of ambition. Dany is presented to the Dosh Khaleen, and Khal Drogo crowns Viserys with molten gold. Robert returns to the castle mortally wounded, and names Ned to be Joffrey’s regent; Ned doesn’t have the heart to tell him Joff, Myrcella, and Thomen are not his children, but writes to Stannis inviting him to take the throne as Robert’s legitimate heir, and tells his guards to prepare for trouble from the Lannisters. Jon and Sam take their vows to the watch, and Ghost finds a severed hand in the forest on their way back to the Wall.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 9: 49N, 50A, 51S, 52J, 53B, 54D. Ned is betrayed by the Gold Cloaks and arrested. Syrio enables Arya to elude the Lannister soldiers, and she witnesses the slaughter of the Stark retainers in the Tower of the Hand, retrieves Needle, kills the stable boy who tries to stop her, and escapes through the dungeons. Sansa is imprisoned, then forced by Cersei to denounce her father as a traitor. Jon recovers the bodies of Benjen’s men, gets into a fight with Ser Alliser over the news of Ned’s arrest, and battles the wights when they reanimate that night. Robb and his army ride out from Winterfell to confront the Lannisters, ignoring Osha’s warnings that the greater danger lies beyond the Wall. Drogo tells Dany that he is no longer interested in invading Westeros now that Viserys is dead, but changes his mind and commits himself fully to the enterprise after an attempt on her life reveals the bounty King Robert had placed on her head.
Episode 10: 55C, 56T, 57S, 58N, 60J, 61D, 59C. Catelyn meets up with Robb and his army at Moat Cailin, where Robb explains his daring plan to divide his force, sending the foot to confront Lord Tywin while the cavalry make for Riverrun to lift the siege there. Tyrion and his mountain men join up with Lord Tywin’s host on the Green Fork. Sansa attends Joff’s first court session, and begs for mercy for her father, which Cersei assures her will be granted if Ned will confess to treason and swear fealty to Joff. Ned dreams of the Tower of Joy and Lyanna’s death, then awakens to a visit from Varys, who informs him of Tyrion’s escape, Arya’s disappearance, and the choice of confession and exile to the Wall, or death for Sansa as well as himself. Jon is given Longclaw, and talks to Maester Aemon about his divided loyalties, learning the truth of the Maester’s heritage. Drogo is wounded, and Dany gets Mirri Maz Duur to treat him, also extracting a promise to assist with her own birthing. Catelyn strikes her bargain with Lord Walder Frey, enabling Robb’s cavalry to cross the Green Fork and add the Freys to his forces.
Episode 11:, 62T, 63C, 64D, 65A. Tyrion participates in the Battle of the Green Fork, while Catelyn witnesses the Battles of the Whispering Woods and the Camps and sees Jaime brought into Riverrun in chains. Drogo falls from his horse, and Dany begs Mirri Maz Duur to heal him, whatever the cost; her bodyguards kill Drogo’s bloodriders when they try to stop the healer from working her magic on him. Dany goes into labor during the ritual, and is taken into the tent, disrupting the spell. Arya witnesses her father’s execution.
Episode 12: 66B, 67S, 68D, 69T, 70J, 71C, 72D. Maester Luwin tells Bran of the Children of the Forest, and the news of Ned’s death arrives at Winterfell. Joff uses his knights to abuse Sansa, with only the Hound daring to show her a hint of kindness. Dany awakens, leans what the healer has done and that the khalasar has deserted her, and smothers Drogo. Tywin learns of Jaime’s capture and Ned’s murder, and sends Tyrion to King’s Landing to try to straighten out the mess Cersei and Joff have created. Jon tries to desert and is stopped by his friends, then learns of Lord Mormont’s plan to lead a reconnaissance in force north of the wall, taking Jon with him. Catelyn visits with her dying father, then attends the council of war where Robb is proclaimed King in the North. Finally, Daenerys Stormborn walks into her husband’s funeral pyre, and emerges again as Daenerys the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons.
entomologistQuote Reply
As I mentioned:
"Also, I apologize for any factual errors. Not having my copy of A Game of Thrones with me, I'm working from memory and wikipedia's breakdown of the book."
So, it looks like wikipedia has this out of order:
Eddard reluctantly agrees to declare a false confession of treason in return for Sansa and Arya's lives and the chance to go into exile on the Wall. Joffrey promises Sansa that he will show mercy, then reverses course and has Eddard brutally executed. While Sansa is retained in custody, Arya escapes with the help of Yoren, a recruiting agent for the Night's Watch.
A civil war, later dubbed the War of the Five Kings, erupts. Angered by Tyrion's capture, Lord Tywin Lannister attacks Riverrun, the Tully stronghold. Robb Stark leads an army of northmen into the Riverlands to support Lord Hoster Tully.
Sorry about that, once again.
AYH, great breakdown of the last bits after Ned's death. Definitely one or more episodes there.
Looking forward to your breakdown, entomologist.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Entomologist, that's a great breakdown.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I think the final episode can go one of two ways.
Either you are going to leave killing Eddard to the last minute and have the Dragons being born running alonside it, pushing the War of the Five Kings back to season two;
-or-
You have it as described very very well by entomologist.
Both have their attractions. Scenerio One allows you to keep your main recognisable star, in Sean Bean, in the series until the last moment (ala. Sam Neill in Tudors season one). It also gives a great hook in the dragons, whilst equally a nice conclusion in beheading just in case a second season is never ordered (hard though, but perfectly possible given the general feeling for Medieval themed things).
Scenerio two gives you much much more hook time for that second series; The War of the Five Kings is set up already, you have a nice moment where Robb is being shouted as the King in the North, you might even get a nice Wedding scene introducing the Queen of Thorns, and even a post credit bonfire scene from Dragonstone saying hi to Stannis………but it could be accused of too many hooks, and, having the dragons on last might even turn some people off the second series as, having had a show almost devoid of any huge fantasy elements bar the odd Wight (which i still think should be shot from an obscured angle), you suddenly throw dragons at them at the last minute.
I am almost certain the dragons will go on last, but perhaps as an interesting after credits sequence, picture this if you will:
Eddard's execution and Drogo's pyre are shown cut across each other. You see Eddard getting beheaded and Daenerys walking into the flames. Lots of screaming. The unreading audience think 'shit, three main characters just died.'
You could even have a scene before the end with the dclaring of Robb as King in the North and the word arriving to Winterfell. The last scene is Robb being chanted at.
Credits roll…….they stop
Funeral Pyre is shown, it's really burning, Daenerys walks out with the dragons, Jorah gives her the Mother of Dragons title, the Dothraki chant it, paralleling what we just had with Robb.
Credits roll properly.
While this doesnt negate my point about the dragons being last on perhaps turning some people off, I feel it's a better climax to the series than having Eddard die then having a pretty dull episode following his death where people are running around talking about it and that only gets intersting in the last ten minutes or so.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
If people talking about Ned's death isn't interesting, then they'll be doing it wrong.
And they won't be doing it wrong.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
But it wont be interesting.
You have to think average television audience, not book fan.
Quick and snappy, hit the audience, not long and drawn out, they wont stay around if they feel they are being preached at – I think Rome suffered from that alot. You'd having something massive happen, then people would stand about talking about it for an episode and half. As such, with TV ratings anyway, it died a death.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Also, aside from my glib response, if you read entomologist's breakdown, there's more stuff going on than just people grieving for Ned. For example, Sansa is grieving for Ned while Joff uses his knights to abuse her. Not necessarily boring, more like completely horrific.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I always felt when reading the book that was a terrible place to put that scene anyway.
You've just has the main character who you've grown to like die, you're in shock, now his daughter who, frankly, you dislike cos it's her dan fault gets beaten. Good was the though i had.
I think that can be a nice opening scene to Season Two. Imagine her and Joff on the battlements as the opener, dead head there staring at them. Nice reminder of the previous end, then he has her beat, reminding you he's a bastard.
I think entomologists way is the way the series will go, it' very true to the book and very involved. I think my way just seems more TV though, and is a much more impactful final episode.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Bravo, entomologist. Bug guy rules. Great breakdown.
My concern in reading your outline is for the earlier chapters. The latter half shows are bam bam bam, one mind-bending or heart-ripping thing after the other. By comparison, episode 2 seems almost listless, with the only real drama coming from the attack on Catelyn and Bran. Likewise episode 3, which only really has the Sansa / Arya / Joff incident.
I would still combine those, somehow, and draw out the last three episodes you outlined and turn them into four episodes (including a more in-depth Jaime at Whispering Wood) … and thus we have our 12.
A note to keep in mind is using the stars we have to work with; Jaime and Cersei are underused in much of season 1, Jaime especially. Pop in a few extra meaty scenes with them, and I think we'll be right on track.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
I love the potential episode breakdown by all posters…this site and all of it's posters are the best and I argue the smartest….eat your heart out …Star Trek and Star Wars and Foundation and Dune fans(though I love you too !)…but God…this blog is awesome !
coltaine777Quote Reply
This is goin' back a bit cos I'm catchin up.
@Demokritos 12:30
[Spoilers for GoT, the Wire(if you have seen the end of season 5 don't read this) & No Country for Old Men]
I agree totally and I would put my favourite pair of socks on it turning out like that because it is both HBO's & GRRM's style. You can see it in 'The Wire' all the way through and it is a massive surprise that blows away all of your protentions about the seeming linearity of the plot. With one fell swoop, he blows the whole books open and it immediately becomes more dynamic, intriguing and gripping. But he does more han this we Ned's execution. He turns your own fantasy on its head. Ned may not have been a favourite of some people, because he was a Hollywood cliche, but thats the precise reason lots of readers would have been endered to him. His demise ridicules the very idea of the security that permeates the love of such a character. Two examples of such moments in Cinama nd television are:
1) in 'No Country for Old Men' when the Vietnam vet who finds the money at the start gets shot off screen by a bunch of Mexicans in a pick-up truck. That was genius because he is built up like some Rambo type character – a cowboy, lone ranger, self-made man, against the odds protectin' his woman, and suddenly, in such a flippant & off-hand fashion the writers make clear his irrelevance and his fragility within such a drug motivated climate as well as his expendability with regard to the story they are trying to tell.
2) When Omar gets shot by an 11 year old kid. What can I say, heroes rarely die heroes deaths. The realism of both shows is just trying to show that your Hollywood cliches are myths, and we wan to stomp all over them – which is exactly what GRRM does with Ned.
So Ned's demise would ONLY work around 15 minutes into an episode, the last one most likely.
MozartQuote Reply
perhaps the final episode is a two hour episode, which includes ned's run-in with ilyn payne, the aftermath, and dany's new pets.
just a thought.
i'm with AYH that the current book, AS WRITTEN, will make a 12 episode series feel drawn out.
that is why i think that D&D need to create some more insights into the other characters, the ones who stay with us over several seasons, characters like:
TYRION, SANSA, CATELYN, JAIME and ARYA.
the flashbacks, which may seem fleeting in parts of the book, can get a whole chunk of an episode, since they lend to the world building, and add to the epic scale of time and place.
this will help lay a contingency plan for the shock of ned's plight, and keep fans hooked into season 2.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
here's also something worth considering… there are non-linear time issues in GRRM's books that will need to get resolved in the adaptations. here is one example…
chapter 66 of AGoT ends with Yoren snatching Arya from Baelor's sept, and pulling her into an alleyway to give her a nice shave.
seven chapters follow this moment, including the aftermath of ned's visit to the sept.
however, book 2, ASoS, starts (post-prologue) with the continutation of that climactic scene, where yoren gives arya her nickname of ARRY and takes her out of king's landing.
there's no way you could expect to hold onto the climax of baelor's sept, and pay it off with an episode in between.
just thinking about this, and whether they may blur the lines between books for stories that are clearly linear, and don't really matter about which book they happen in.
in the books themselves, it was the new POV characters that really became the difference. the rest of it is like a soap opera, just linear stories of each character woven together into the world at large.
those who've read the pilot script can see how that strict obediance to POV character isn't how they are approaching the series. ie. there aren't "chapters" in the narrativ, where we see "ARYA" fade up on screen, to let the viewer know we're looking at her part of the story now.
it's all blended together, so i wouldn't be suprised if some of book 1 and 2 blend as well, in order to make the most compelling 12 episodes possible, and keep the linearity where appropriate (ie. climactic scenes).
anyone else see this potential issue/opportunity/challenge?
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Ryan, I think that this is absolutely a possibility. Like I mentioned in my 4:50 PM post, if they try to line things up they're going to have to do a little extra work.
I think that showing what non-POV characters were doing around certain scenes would both add a little padding to the sparser sections and give us the type of extra information Silverstar was discussing earlier.
I also do think that if they start making sure things go more linear they may bring elements from the second book in, specifically the bits with Arya and Yoren that you mentioned.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
A couple of thoughts about Ned's death and where it ought to fall…
For those thinking it should be the end of the final episode, all I can do is reiterate all of the well thought-out explanations of why that's not a good idea. I don't care how powerful and dramatic that moment is, it's not the end of the story of AGoT. It's the event that *starts* the end of the story of AGoT. The whole point of Ned's death is not the death itself, but what that death sets in motion. *That* is the real ending of the story of AGoT…what comes after. Pushing those "after" events to season two both breaks the rhythm of the story, and misses the point of the story AGoT was telling.
On the other side, though, from an audience point of view, putting Ned's death at the beginning or even middle of an episode doesn't work either. It is an incredibly shocking and unexpected event, and people need time to process it. A lot of important things happen quickly after Ned's death, and if the audience doesn't have a little time to process their shock at that event, they won't really be able to absorb what comes after it. When reading the book, you can stop, and go "Wait…did he just…he just killed…no way!" You can flip back and reread what leads up to it, or put the book down for a few minutes, or do whatever else you have to do, to wrap your head around what just happened, before continuing. On TV–especially HBO–you can't do that. Even if Ned's death happened at an act break, there is no commercial break between acts on HBO, to give people a little time to process.
Now, sure, in the era of Tivo and other DVRs, people can certainly pause the show for a few minutes to process, and then go ahead. But it's sloppy writing to rely on that. *Most* viewers–possibly even many of us who have read the books and know it is coming, but will be caught up in the visceral visual reality of it–will need time to process it before we can really absorb what follows. Don't write with the assumption that people will have to pause their show. Write the processing time in. Put Ned's death at the end of an episode and give people a week to process the shock, and get fired up to see what happens next.
Sure, it *sounds* like a great idea to do it at the beginning of an episode, and then just throw the audience headlong into what happens afterward right away. It sounds like it would really capture that sense from the books of everyone scrambling to react and adjust and adapt. But the reality is that if the audience can't process the completely unexpected death of such a prominent character before new stuff is thrown at them…many of them just won't be able to absorb or appreciate the new stuff.
Just my two Winterfell pennies.
Best,
~~~~Random
random221bQuote Reply
Random, I've got to refer back to Mozart's post on this one. HBO has absolutely done this kind of thing before.
*WIRE SPOILER*
Omar Little, who by season five was a fan favorite and one of the "heroes" of the show, was killed in the first 17 minutes of what would be a 58 minute episode, episode 8 of 10-Episode season. As you've mentioned, there was absolutely no commercial break. The time you got to deal with it was spent watching the rest of the episode.
Some people may have arguments with this, so I'll address the most obvious one.
Omar and Ned are two different types of characters. Ned could be seen as the "main" character of Game of Thrones while Omar was a beloved side character. So, some could make the argument that they can be dealt with differently.
However, if you're a fan of The Wire then you know how beloved and "charmed" Omar seemed. I could easily see the exact arguments about how Ned's death needs to be at the end of an episode applied to Omar if The Wire had been based on a book and people knew the death was coming. On the opposite side, HBO will hopefully be laying groundwork so that when Ned dies it will be a huge blow, but not be seen as the death of the only important character in the series.
Again, not a direct parallel, but a pretty straightforward example of a very important character getting offed unceremoniously near the first quarter of an episode.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I'd love for GRRM to get in the habit of picking an episode that is largely not seen (but perhaps talked about) in the books. The season two no brainer episode that comes to mine is Tyrion's ill-fated attempt to break Jaime out of Riverrun. Martin might even be able to work in a Whispering Woods flashback in that episode.
I'm having to try a little harder to come up with similar material for book one right this second. maybe something with Benjen's ranging or The Mountain's reaving or perhaps some new scenes in the khalasar showing Dany rising and Viserys deteriorating. Any other ideas along these lines?
lordnedsheadQuote Reply
Legion: the steps at the very end wouldn't work that well in my opinion, as we have discussed before. I do, however, quite like your suggestion for interspersion of "king in the north" and "the pyre" scenes, paralleled with chanting and everythnig … looks good in my head.
MarkoQuote Reply
@Marko
Cheers, I think having that parallel works to emphasis the story in terms of the collapse of the Kingdom.
As for Ned's death being at the end, I can see where people are coming from, but as a television ending (remember this isnt the book, this is an adaption that needs to sell itself to a TV audience) I think Ned's death is better to have at the end for the reason I outlined (audiene shock, good end for the series incase s2 never comes and so on).
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Legion, I hope you can appreciate that we've shown that your ideas of what makes good television are not absolute. The Wire is thought by many critics and fans alike to be one of the best TV shows of all time, and they did the almost the exact thing you are saying won't work as well as your idea. You may like your idea better, and I can respect that. However, those of us advocating for an earlier time are thinking in terms of television, too.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
It seems pretty obvious to me: make Ned's death the climactic end to episode 11. This will have the audience reeling, then the hook would be "is he really dead? Was that faked?"
Then episode 12 is the aftermath, including "the King of the North" and Dany hatching the dragons as the final scene.
shadallionQuote Reply
I think my top five choices, based on the discussions above, would be:
1) First half of episode 11.
2) End of episode 10.
3) First half of episode 10.
4) End of episode 11.
5) First half of episode 12.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I'm wondering if they'll add a few more Dany scenes or scenes where Kings Landing et al talk about Dany. I can only think of a few times in the books where this happens. It might be good to try to tie her story in more with whats going on in the "main story." I know a lot of people who were saying things like "what's with the dragon girl?" after finishing A Game of Thrones. For a TV audience it could help to stress the connection more, either with Targ flashbacks, more info about Jorah, or something.
As for the Ned issue, I agree that it should happen before the last episode, most likely ep. 11. I can see it happening at the end of the episode, using it as shock, leaving people questioning whether or not he's actually dead. I could also see them skipping over Some of the Arya & Sansa POV and ending with the Bran/Rickon/Luwin getting the Raven scene, solidifying Ned's fate. Leaving people no question.
and going way back into the post with R+L=J there is also the idea that A King can legitamize a bastard.
JillianQuote Reply
*Spoiler*
Robb did name Jon his successor, yes? Did they ever mention what became of that document?
*Spoiler*
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I agree with you Jillian about Dany.
*Spoiler*
@Paul – I think, this document is with Maege Mormont and somebody else, while they heading to the North.
Robb gave them the document before the Red Wedding.
*Spoiler*
The rabbitQuote Reply
Thanks, The Rabbit. And Jillian, I like that idea. It would help with the problems I see with us getting so far into her storyline in the pilot.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Paul
I understand your thoughts on the Ned's death matter. I admit, I haven't seen "The Wire"–planning to watch it, and sorry I stumbled onto a spoiler, but what can ya do, right? Not your fault, you posted *SPOILER* I just felt I needed to read what you wrote anyway, since you were rebutting my position.
In any case, having not seen The Wire, I can't say whether I would feel what they did worked–though based on other people's opinions it sounds like it did–but from what little I know of both the show and the character…it was a very different show, and the character filled a very different role in the show. The question I need to ask was, how complex, powerful, and important were the things that happened in the rest of the episode? Was it stuff that it didn't really matter if the audience couldn't absorb it, because they hadn't yet processed the death?
I can only speak for myself, but if *I* saw the show and didn't know what was coming, and Ned was suddenly killed in the first half of the episode, my mind would be on that for the rest of the episode, and not on anything else that was going on. I'm sure it worked in the Wire–I fully believe it *can* work–but I feel that in this case, it's the wrong way to go, because people really *need* to be caught up in and able to appreciate all the things that happen after Ned dies, since those things are what the ending of the story is really about…those are the things that Ned had to die to set in motion. They are the *point* of the ending of the book/season. I think Ned dying early in an episode would *distract* people from that, rather than make the rest of the show more effective.
I admit, I could be wrong. But considering the intent of the death in the story, and what the point of the story is, and my knowledge/experience in cinematic storytelling (I am an actor/director…though not a famous one or anything…nobody's heard of me, LOL) I think in this case it would better serve the story to hit the audience with it, and then give them a week to process the shock before expecting them to absorb more big events.
Again, just my take. Good discussion all around. =)
Best,
~~~~Random
random221bQuote Reply
*Spoiler*
I have just tried to make 12 epizodes of 73 POVs of AGOT.
I realised it was not so simple lol
I have noticed some problems (IMO).
- Danys story arc – It would be good for the series that we have Dany in every episode, and I think, as Jillian before me, that some adding in Danys plotline will be necessary.
-Too much Sirs in the book – well, one of the think I most like in GRRMs books is fact, that there si a lot of characters, who does not seem importnat, but suddenly they become importnat.
For exemple: ministrel on the Stark feast (however I do not think that we are going to see Mance in the pilot).
It is very challenging for the reading, and I think it is quite impossible while you are watching the film.
So I was thinking about Beric and Thoros, and their plotline.
They first appereance is at the Hands tourement, then Ned sent them to Riverrlands.
And after that they are waitng for Season 2 lol
The rabbitQuote Reply
Random,
I think you and I simply differ in our impression of the audience's ability to process things, and perhaps what we want out of our TV. I like being challenged in those ways, of watching something horrific and then having to switch gears to something else.
Putting it at the beginning of the episode is a trick, in a way, of completely catching folks off-guard and leaving them reeling. If you like having that happen to you (which I do) it's an appealing idea. If not, I could see how you'd think it's unworkable.
Still, I think you and I agree on one major principal, which I think outweighs our disagreement of where it can effectively be placed, which is that it's the lead-in to the end, not the end itself.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Paul
I can see how putting it at the beginning could be effective. The lead up would seem like they really would send him to the wall…then the twist. my issue is what happens next. Do we follow around Arya and Sansa for awhile? How into the episode will people be after they get a shock like that? (Again, I haven't watched the Wire yet so I don't know how that worked)
My fear is that if we spend the rest of the episode looking at character reactions to it there won't be time for the audience themselves to have their own reactions. I would use the first half of the episode to make sure people think Ned is going to the wall. Add a scene with Cersei making preparation, add a scene on the wall maybe stressing the danger of the wall (i hate to say it but with the internet I'm sure a lot of people will know Sean Bean is only signed for one season. if you make it look like he'll be killed on the wall then you can still have the Steps come as a surprise)
JillianQuote Reply
Jillian, I do like that idea. I'm really sad that there's a good chance people won't get to be surprised like we were. Hundreds of off-hand comments could tip folks off to what's going to happen to him.
*GAME OF THRONES SPOILER*
If I remember correctly, Ned's leg isn't doing so well at this point. Is that correct? It's very possible that sending him to the wall could kill him. (I have this re-occurring day-nightmare that HBO and GRRM decide to mess with fans of the book and have Joff do a false pardon first, making everyone go, "Wait a second…what's happening? No! He's supposed to die! Are you kidding me!?! Then have him recant and kill him. I know this won't happen, just an odd fear of mine.)
*END SPOILER*
*THE WIRE SPOILER*
Interestingly enough, at this point in The Wire Omar's leg was messed up, too. Plus, at the beginning of the episode you see two of his enemies plotting to kill him in front of a third character. So, when he's limping around through a dangerous area, you expect something to happen, just not for him to die in that way.
After he gets shot, we get some reaction from the store clerk and the shooter, then we jump to a police station, well away from that action.
If they followed the way The Wire worked Omar's death, they might show Sansa and Anya's reactions immediately after it happens, then jump to Dany or The Wall next. Basically, make the whole thing shocking and brief, giving people very little time to mourn.
By making the whole thing sudden and unceremonious, the absolute shock, horror, and senselessness of the act could be demonstrated.
*END SPOILER*
Again, my idea is obviously just one of many, and I think the way you've laid things out could work for me.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Another reason Ned's death really shouldn't be at the end of Episode 12 is that ACoK is a longer book — deferring the last hundred pages or so of AGoT to Season 2 makes that imbalance worse, and they already have to fit more material into season 2 than season 1. (I'm hoping that if the show goes to three seasons, than HBO will give it more episodes to adapt the truly enormous ASoS. They've done extended seasons before, after all, notably with Season 6 of The Sopranos, and Showtime did seasons of different lengths for Queer as Folk.)
entomologistQuote Reply
@Paul
All in all I really need to watch The Wire lol
@entomologist
another good point.
JillianQuote Reply
*WIRE SEASON 5 and AGOT SPOILERS*
I was conflicted about Omar's death scene. The build up was epic. I mean you knew he was a wounded animal who was in a bad situation. You knew he wasn't going to get out of it. But having the kid take him out that way made me feel empty. At this point we had seen so much violence it didn't register with me. I think that apathetic feeling is what Simon was looking for, however. Omar didnt even get a byline in the paper (remember how the reporters just referred to him as a statistic). This is what Simon wanted to achieve, but is it what Martin was going for with Ned? It is interesting to compare them but I really think Ned's death isn't supposed to be lost in the shuffle – Omar dies and this is not consequential to the plot. Quite the opposite with Ned.
MegQuote Reply
And I hate you all. I just bought the first season of The Wire. :P
JillianQuote Reply
Meg, I get it. Others have tried to point this out to me, but you made me get it. The difference isn't how the audience feels about the character, but what the character means to their respective world.
A great point.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I get what people are saying about Ned's death needing some time afterward for people to process it, but personally I think I'd be more distracted from what happens afterward if I had to wait a week. I know when I read it, there was a little part of me, conditioned by hollywood endings and the vast majority of fiction in general, that thought it must have been some sort of trick. Part of this was the way Ned comes off as THE main character in book 1, part of it was the involvement of Varys and Littlefinger (If anyone could fake that, it's them). I seem to remember that the initial description of the event also skips over the beheading itself, just telling you it's about to happen, then giving the aftermath. HBO could, and quite probably will, actually show the beheading, but it's not that viewers will have any serious doubts, it's that they'll WANT to be wrong. All the facts add up, but a lifetime of reading and watching stories where this kind of thing is never done abruptly will make it feel wrong. Letting them ruminate about this for a week might just make them impatient with anything that doesn't go back directly and show with absolute certainty that Eddard is dead. Having it at the end of an episode sets it up as a cliffhanger, which it is in the sense of throwing everything in disarray, but this might add to feelings that some deception is going on, and will be revealed next episode. The Sansa scene doesn't reassert the truth well, as his head is specifically described as unrecognizable under the tar.
I think the best compromise might be to put the second to last Dany scene right after Eddard dies, so the viewer feels like they can get away from Westeros for a minute and get their thoughts together about it, and then go back and show the aftermath of Ned's demise. This sets things up so that if a viewer has any doubts, they won't be expecting confirmation one way or the other until the next season, by which time they should have gone over it in their head enough that they can face the truth.
I definitely understand the arguments, and think there are a lot of ways to organize things, each with pros and cons, though. I think Ned's beheading should work pretty well almost anywhere, because it's a great scene no matter what.
DemokritosQuote Reply
*SPOILERS GALLORE*
I think we need to remember who we are dealing with here. Both GRRM & HBO love messin' with their audiences and their protentions & expectations. They will not make it easy or comfortable for any viewers. That would go against the whole feel of the books, and I don't think GRRM would have given' the rights up to people that were gonna sacrifice authenticity for viewer satisfaction. There is a message in Ned's scene that is affectual in a way that a climax at that point would betray. The message is similar (if not exactly the same) as that portrayed by Omar's death. That message is that (in the simplest terms possible) your favorite characters will not get a free ride, and in the broad scheme they really aren't that important. The world is cruel and indifferent and this story will not sugar-coat it. Being in the middle of the episode would aid in rambing this point home. I agree totally with Paul Gude that they would cut straight to a couple of brief reactions from the kids, and then quickly moving onto some other part of Westeros with no direct connection to Ned and his story.
@Meg – I don't mean that they are analogous, just that they go against the audience's expectations in a deliberate fashion. Ned is not a hero, and his prominance in the first book only serves to carry the plot. That is built upon ten-fold when other info comes out obout Robert's rebellion, Ned's role in it and Jaime's character arc. But at the moment of his death he has been built up as one of the main protagonists.
Omar's death is even more complex because of the reasons you mentioned. His demise has the same a politically realist attitude surrounding it. Omar died in the middle of an episode, rather unclimactically, and ineffectually, demonstrating how indifferent the writers are to what the audience wants to see. It shows an artistic maturity that GRRM has in abundance also. Thats all I was saying really, not that the characters have aby similarity or their plotlines or anything like that.
MozartQuote Reply
@Demokritos
I think I get what you're saying (and if I'm wrong please correct me). If after ned we jump to Dany we get away from kingslanding let people jump to their own conclusions, while something else is going on.
This is where it gets tricky because really Dany going into the tent her second to last chapter is pretty important too and I don't really want her story or Ned's to be overshadowed by each other. If they end it with her walking into the tent, will that be too much for one episode? I have no idea. It seems to me the logical place to break but it just makes me wonder.
I still think it would be poignant to end that episode with "we shall fine a stone carver who knew his likeness well…"
Will all i want in this episode it seems i have joined the "let's have it happen in the middle of the episode" group
JillianQuote Reply
I haven't seen it, so I can't comment, but just because I feel I have to:
Game of Thrones is NOT The Wire.
They are not, from what I can see, similar. They don't have the same team behind them. They don't appeal to the same audience on the whole(I'd have thought).
While they are both prduced by HBO, that doesn't mean they will be at all similar. Although, it doesn't mean they wont be either. So I can be ignored too.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
*SPOILER-RIFIC*
@Omar little's demise –
I think his death( and all deaths in The Wire ) are not intended to surprise the viewer or prove that David Simon was willing to kill main characters or anything of that nature. It was simply a realistic demise for someone in that lifestyle. So often movies and shows tend to romanticize the death of a hero, and in The Wire, they just get shot out of the blue, as they would in real life, with no explanation and its over just like that.
@Ned's Scene –
I think they should keep it the way it was presented in the books. FWIW, the way I envision it, would be it happening at the end of episode 11, but as in the books, through the view of Arya. Yoren grabs her and tells her not to look, so she never sees it actually happen. This would be an affective way to end that episode. Joffrey would exclaim to cut off his head, Yoren would start to pull Arya away from the scene and we may hear the crowd gasp or the thud of a sword, but not ACTUALLY see it happen. I think this worked well in the book, because it left that doubt in your mind… like "No way he's dead…" I think the viewers will feel the same way and will want to watch the 12th episode that much more to find out.
The 12th episode can start with Bran waking up in Winterfell after his nightmare, and force them to take him to the crypt where they find Rickon who had the same dream and is already waiting… then the raven comes with the actual news… yada yada yada, and the rest of the episode can deal with the aftermath and things it leads to.
Lastly, the season HAS to end with 1.) Dany walking into the fire and dramatic shot of Jorah reacting to her "killing herself." 2.) Robb being declared king of the north. 3.) Just when people think the episode is over, show a last 30 second clip of Jorah walking through the ashes and finding Dany with the dragons, and have one of the dragons turn and look at him and scream or something, and then over. That implies that a LOT of badass stuff is about to happen and would be a great way to end a season.
ChrisQuote Reply
i dunno, I think it is reasonable to compare the Wire to GoT. They are both characterised by an untypical gritty realism.
MozartQuote Reply
PS. The fact that not much badass stuff will happen with either Robb or Dany in the second season is something they can come to grips with later :)
ChrisQuote Reply
@Jillian
I mostly meant that jumping to Dany would sort of give people a break from what is, at that point, the Ned storyline. The Dany plotline is so separate that I think people will be able to pay attention to it and put their emotions about Ned on hold more easily than if they went directly to Robb, Sansa, etc. I'm thinking Ned's death would be in the middle of an episode, then Dany, then back to Westeros. It would probably be the second to last episode, since I think Eddard dying and Dany walking into the fire are too big to be together in one episode. Admittedly, there might not be enough aftermath in Westeros to fill out 1 1/2 episodes, even with the two final Dany chapters. I'm having trouble figuring out how to organize the scenes in terms of which episodes they'll happen in, but it seems like those kinds of issues are going to be there no matter what. Of course, it's possible my preferences would be impossible to work out against the chronology and how long the episodes need to be. Definitely hard to get Ned's death at the middle of an episode by reworking Entomologist's excellent breakdown, at any rate.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Legion, I don't know about the others, but I brought up The Wire specifically because of this from Random:
"When reading the book, you can stop, and go "Wait…did he just…he just killed…no way!" You can flip back and reread what leads up to it, or put the book down for a few minutes, or do whatever else you have to do, to wrap your head around what just happened, before continuing. On TV–especially HBO–you can't do that. Even if Ned's death happened at an act break, there is no commercial break between acts on HBO, to give people a little time to process."
Not only can HBO do it, they did. You've used the "it's TV not a book" argument yourself, so hopefully you can appreciate what we were trying to address.
We don't want Game of Thrones to be The Wire, but we do think you can have that scene play out like the book and still be damn good TV.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@ Demokritos
I think it will depend on how much time we spend with Dany in the last few episodes. In the book her second to last chapter is pretty quick because she's in and out of consciousness after the birth. We don't actually see her giving birth or what happens to her once she goes into the tent. If HBO/D&D think some of this should be shown it'll take up a bit more screen time.
Also I don't think I've said it before but Entomologist's are great and are a fantastic resource :)
JillianQuote Reply
*breakdowns…
JillianQuote Reply
@ Legion of course they're different. But it's fun to analyze the parallels. As a huge fan of both, I have to ask myself why I'm drawn to them in the first place. I find enormous similarities in the theme and tone of both stories.
Here is where I think The Wire and ASOIAF overlap. The Wire is about how broken institutions in America silence, corrupt, or destroy people. ASOIAF is about how broken institutions in a feudalistic society silence, corrupt, or destroy people. Institutional inertia – whether in a corporatized police department or an unstable monarchy – really fucks people up. Those charismatic figures who challenge any of these laws bring chaos for themselves or for others. Sincere, honorable, or authentic people will not survive in either universe.
Also, off the top of my head I can think of other similarities:
"It's all in the game" – "You cannot lose if you do not play" – The Chess Scene in Season 1 Episode 3 – Kings dying and others rising to take their place – Deconstructing the meaning of "honor" and "loyalty" – Choices consisting of "bad" and "worse" – A bunch of angry men walking around with weapons looking for revenge (LOL)
MegQuote Reply
Perfectly said Meg. I agree completely.
MozartQuote Reply
Meg, that was great. Killer points all night.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Going from Entomologist's Breakdowns, for the third episode do you think they'll start with Bran's vaguely hallucinogenic awakening. That chapter is so different from the others, for me it makes sense to be put before the opening credits, ending with "His name is summer." the events in the section are so spread out that it would be fairly easy to rearrange the events without it making too much of a difference. Thoughts?
JillianQuote Reply
The difference isn't how the audience feels about the character, but what the character means to their respective world.
Which is exactly why it can't be the last scene of the last episode of the season — we need those chapters that show the ripple effects of Ned's death on his family and his enemies.
Definitely hard to get Ned's death at the middle of an episode by reworking Entomologist's excellent breakdown, at any rate.
I'm working on an edit of my breakdown, actually, because I largely agree with About Yea High's comment regarding the relative amounts of action in the early and late chapters. It'll probably take me a couple of days, though, because I'm going to go with more detail and predict how the chapters might be broken into scenes and interspersed throughout the episode (I paid the eight bucks for access to the full chapter summaries at that Bookrags site I linked in the post before my episode summaries, so I might as well get my money's worth….).
Later,
Alex
entomologistQuote Reply
hey guys.
i figured i'd risk an inquiry to the man himself, and GRRM had this to say.
"Whichever one David and Dan want me to write.
I am not even thinking about this right now. We have yet to shoot a foot of film, this is only the pilot, the series has not been ordered, and I have a book to finish.
I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.
George R.R. Martin"
perhaps his remarks will quelch our speculation at present, or at least warrant renaming this thread to "what episode SHOULD grrm write?"
perhaps, too, it may hearten fans who wonder whether he is letting outside forces delay his writing of ADwD.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
(SPOILERS)
Which is exactly why it can't be the last scene of the last episode of the season — we need those chapters that show the ripple effects of Ned's death on his family and his enemies.
Alex, I completely agree. I made that statement because Meg reminded me that the basic non-story of Omar in his world is starkly contrasted (see what I did there?) by how Ned's death will affect his world. I'm not wavering in my stance against the last scene of the last episode.
Ryan, thanks for getting that answer from GRRM.
"Whichever one David and Dan want me to write," means that if what Curtis said was on the money that the big answer would be "not the finale." He gave his reasons above, and I think they make sense.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Alex
Looking forward to it. Was my mention of your breakdown just a convenient segue, or do you plan on trying to work Eddard's death into the middle/beginning of an episode? Or perhaps, since you're taking a few days on this, you're going to offer a couple different finale possibilities? Regardless, it should be great.
@Ryan
When have we ever stopped speculating on something for such a silly reason as it being completely useless, futile and ridiculous? Honestly, you should know better (Kidding, if that's not clear). Good to hear George is focusing on ADwD, though I personally never had much doubt. He's probably twice as impatient for the finished book as any of his fans are.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Out of interest, being that it just started it's second series here in the UK, how did the BBC produced series 'Merlin' go down in America?
While it's more light than GoT will be, it's the same sort of setting and the sets are pretty elaborate. Plus it features a dragon.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Legion, as for myself, I've never really looked at it too closely, and I'd consider myself a fan of the fantasy genre. I'd actually forgotten about its existence until you mentioned it. There's not a lot of hype about it as far as I can tell. For me, it's mostly the timeslot, I think. Sunday 8/7 Central is kind of a dead-zone. After reading your description I was like, "Hmmmm…maybe I'll check it out."
It's been preempted tonight for an NFL game.
For a more well-rounded look, I thought Digital Spy gives an objective look to how things were going back in August.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
So, it isn't really watched and is critically panned by the big newspapers, bar Entertainment Weekly, who played the pink card?
Taking is back to the old fantasy setting = American audiences don't like, seeing this…..I'm worried.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
I wouldn't be too worried yet. I think an HBO fantasy series will mean something quite different here. I'm not exactly sure if NBC was clear to whom they were trying to market Merlin.
The impression that I got from the few promos that I saw was that they were going after a more Harry Potter crowd, perhaps because Harry Potter = The Only Real Fantasy Success in the minds of the NBC marketing folks. I honestly think if they had gone after older Buffy fans instead, especially with Anthony Stewart Head in the mix, they would have done a lot better.
HBO is not going to fall into that trap. This is the exact reason for the marketing suggestions Ryan and I were throwing out earlier.
Part of the reason shows like Merlin don't do as well as they should in my opinion is the opinion of at least some of the people in charge that Fantasy = Kids.
While some potential viewers might make that mistake, HBO sure as hell won't.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
HBO may not, but it's the issues that the audience have that fantasy = kids is where my worry comes from.
We will watch because we are fans. HBO will advertise and some people will be drawn in by that. Heady and Bean will bring in their fans as well.
Mainstream appeal may be lacking though, and I'm just hoping HBO will give it a chance and wait for DVDs and such, as they claim they wished they'd done with Rome.
Obviously I hope that this show is a huge and massive success. Equally I hope HBO isn't expecting True Blood style ratings. But I do think that we need to try and remember that we are aleady fans, we know the story is great; the issue will be getting the average viewer to give it a chance….
legion_quest666Quote Reply
The other side of the coin is that Merlin may be fantasy, but it isn't A Game of Thrones.
I talked to my wife about it and she actually saw Merlin. She said that she found it cheesy and a little silly.
She's a fan of Excalibur, however, which did pretty well here in the U.S. Never underestimate the power of sex and realistic violence to win people over. Usually when a fantasy series actually shows up on U.S. television, it is most often neutered to the point that it may as well be a show for kids anyway. The villains are jokes, the magical effects cheesy, and the fights sub-par.
Not having seen Merlin, I can't say that this is the case with it. I can say, however, that if someone takes the time to watch A Game of Thrones, I doubt "cheesy" or "silly" will be their takeaways.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
i'd like to know
1. how many books AFfC sold worldwide
2. what percentage of the book owners can watch HBO
3. what percentage of THAT will subscribe to watch the series.
that would be a good place to start, but i'm going to speculate that it is not nearly enough to compete with True Blood for viewership.
GoT is going to have to get new fans, and hook new viewers, and get people to talk about it and subsequently subscribe to the show.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Yeah, I'm not saying that Merlin and GoT are similar……the familiar thing is that they have that fantasy genre that is the same.
That genre has a stigma attached.
GoT's could break that stigma, but it has to get past it first. Merlin is simply the most recent show I could see that a true comparison in terms of genre could be drawn (rather than The Wire, that may have the story complexity, but isn't even remotely similar…..in fact, i would say is the polar opposite of GoT's in terms of genre).
Fantasy with complete emersion (rather than Buffy style fantasy that is set in modern times but has fantasy elements) isn't that popular and what HBO will need to work on is getting over that.
I would suggest WiC, that that could be a future straight debate like this thread – "How can HBO sell this show to the average TV viewer"
legion_quest666Quote Reply
I think another problem with Merlin was that it's been done. When I first saw the trailers for it my first thought was "really? Another Merlin show?" I made me think of the mini-series a few years back (I think it was a miniseries, or Tv movie, I'm not positive). For me another re-hashing of the King Arthur story wasn't something I wanted to see. I know a lot of my friends felt that way too and we're all usually the fantasy/scifi demographic.
I agree with Paul about the time slot and marketing too. Being a weekend show doesn't help viewership and NBC knows this. Their marketing was uninspiring. They didn't know who to market it to. It kind of looked cheesy too.
And honestly I'm still mad at NBC for cancelling Kings, which i thought was a really cool premise, with a great cast.
JillianQuote Reply
Yeah, a lot of people are talking about how they shouldn't have to make it appeal to an average audience, but the way I see it they have five levels to reach:
1) Fans of the book – Easiest. We're already on-board. They're doing a great job of staying true to the book while making it work as a TV show, which is pretty much all we ask.
2) Fans of fantasy who don't know the books. Pretty easy once again. People who like swords and some magical elements will probably be drawn to the series without much work. Even if they aren't very familiar with GRRM, the fact that there's a decent fantasy series should be good enough.
3) Fans of sci-fi shows who dislike current fantasy shows. I'd put my wife in this category. We both loved Firefly and she likes some fantasy movies, but she's been turned off by recent fantasy shows. For people like that, HBO will have to show that Game of Thrones will transcend their expectations of the genre.
4) HBO fans who don't necessarily like fantasy. I have some friends who will watch any drama HBO puts out. This may be a slight harder sell for them, because of the stigma fantasy shows have had recently. However, if they can be assured the complex drama, sex, and violence they expect will be present in Game of Thrones, I think they'll come over.
5) Folks who don't really like fantasy and aren't fans of other HBO programs. These are going to be harder to reach, and I don't know if they'll be focused on that heavily. I think it may be better for the producers to worry about getting regular HBO viewers to tune in and getting fantasy/sci-fi fans who don't have HBO to subscribe, at first. Once that happens, word of mouth and critical acclaim can help bring these folks in from there. I mean, if all of the audience for True Blood started watching Game of Thrones, would it matter if the Sunday Night Football crowd didn't tune in?
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Selling GoT to True Blood's audience will be hard enough.
True Blood is riding the back of the current Twillight inspire vampire craze. It's full of sex and scantily clad cast members.
Yes, GoT will have that, but generally older flesh (not saying that's a bad thing, but the teeny booper side of the audience that watch TB may not see the same things in GoT).
Of HBO shouldn't HAVE to appeal to the average viewer, but they are a company looking to make money. GoT is going to be expensive, as such it will need to warrent it's budget (if it gets made and so on).
How many people here already have HBO? How many will get HBO for the show? How many will just get the torrent?
GoT's will be an interesting show to see play out. While we all know that it should be awesome in terms of story, and likely acting, it will be interesting to see how it's recieved.
In terms of Paul's 5 kinds of people, 1-3 should be easy. 4 is the target imo.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
I'll be getting HBO if they pick up the show, and buying the DVDs as soon as they're available.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
1. Fans of the book-Easiest
Agreed. We're all going towatch this. We just have to hope that most of us will buy the channel or DVDs in support of the show, rather than getting it by other means.
The thing with ASOIAF, in book one there isn't much really fantastical in it. The prologue and the some of the Dany stuff. So if they market it purely as a fantasy series some people might be confused. From the tidbits of information scatterred here and there it seems like HBO may market it more as a character Drama, which I might work. I'm not saying leave out fantasy completely (because that would be stupid and lying) but if the main focus is the characters rather than the "fantasy setting" they may have a better chance of finding an audience. The Fantasy Stigma could hurt this project but the fact that HBO is the one taking the chance could help it succeed. "I don't really like fantasy, but it's HBO so if might be okay." That kind of thing.
Just some musings…
One thing HBO is already doing to market this is their casting. A couple of my friends said they'll at least give it a chance because Sean Bean and Jennifer Ehle are in it.
One of my concerns is the weirdness right in the beginning. The prologue might have some people going "Ice zombies?" "Did you watch Game of Thrones?" "You mean the show with the Ice Zombies?"
It could loose people right away. A solution could be to do the Prologue without actually showing the wights, leaving people question what killed the 2 and scared Gared enough to desert.
Just some thoughts.
JillianQuote Reply
I wish there was an edit feature…
JillianQuote Reply
@Jillian
I have been saying that about the Wights for a while. They don't NEED to be shown in the pilot.
You can easily shoot shadows and creepy angles, without showing them.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@Legion
Exactly. angles, shadows, the air getting colder, showing their breath. It sets up another mystery too, which might make people want to see more of Jon at the Wall and hook people into that story while most of the action takes place in elsewhere.
JillianQuote Reply
@jillian
i agree about the wights. even as a reader i am a little on the fence about them and i worry how viewers will respond if they are shown right away.
i am a huge fantasy reader and when i started AGoT and i read the prologue with the wights i was a little like "meh. really snow zombies? i don't know how long i'm going to last with this series."
and i mean, OBVIOUSLY it hooked me. it hooked me with the starks and dany and all the great drama! and as the series continued i saw how the wights fit into the plot and gradually became more interested in them.
this is what i'd like the show to do, introduce them and like you said, make it a mystery. like what is north of the wall that people are so freaked out about? i can't wait to find out! instead of: i don't get it, the bad ass night watch are afraid of dead snowmen? who cares.
for a first time viewer, maybe a fan of true blood, who is going to try out this new "fantasy" series, a leering blue eyed corpse attacking some dude might make them shrug and turn the channel. like too much fantasy/suspension of disbelief off the bat.
i hope they slowly dip viewers into that pool and when they do show us the wights, they better make them hella scary!
educatedponyQuote Reply
I'd much rather they actually show them, and give them the full Carnivale-style creep-out treatment. Art-house horror film, vs. Evil Dead.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
There is actually only one wight in the prologue, namely Ser Waymar Royce. It is really easy to confuse Wights and Others, though. I had to go and check myself.
Personally, if it WERE wights, I think they'd do just as well to go ahead and show them, but be subtle about it. Most of what we know about wights is that they have black hands and strange blue eyes. Since the wights would be wildlings living in cold weather, and probably fairly recently dead, they'd most likely have gloves (Or their hands could just not be shown close up), and they probably would not have a zombie-like appearance. I've actually never pictured any wights as looking like zombies: the cold weather presumably preserves them rather well, even if the Others' magic might not. I imagine them as looking corpse-like, but only in the same basic way that vampires are portrayed as corpse-like; no significant deterioration, etc. Until someone hacks off their limbs or something, of course.
I don't think they'd be too outside the realm of believability. Waymar, on the other hand, having been already introduced as a normal-looking human could be a problem, but I don't see much way around that, unless they want to keep it in the air as to whether he underwent a change, or is just betraying his companions. I think that would be a mistake, though, since it fails to set up the idea of wights for the later parts where Jon encounters them.
Others could be a problem, but The leaked script does give detailed descriptions of them, so it seems like they will be shown, unless they've edited that part significantly. Not sure how they'll make it work, but I think as long as they don't go over the top with their appearance or show them in too much detail for too long, it'll be fine. The prologue also shouldn't take too long, so I think most people will stick around for the execution right after, which should be a realistic and somber enough affair to counter the Others.
I also think the Others were just as potentially off-putting to readers as they will be to viewers, but they seem like a necessary setup for the world. Sidestepping them too thoroughly could be a mistake in that it wouldn't give viewers the grounding to accept later events. Personally I only really had any problem with the fantasy aspect when it got to Melisandre, as that seemed too abrupt to me. The East was always a little more magical, and George did a good job gradually introducing human-controlled magic through Mirri Maz Duur. The wall already had the Others, right off the bat. Suddenly having some hitherto unintroduced human woman in South-of-the-Wall-Westeros who can do all kinds of crazy stuff was a little harder for me to get over. If we don't set up the far North as a magical place early on, I see problems down the road that could dwarf the issues people might have with a quick first scene.
DemokritosQuote Reply
after reading the last couple posts I can't make up my mind about them showing the wights or not. I can see the benefit of both sides but personally if I got the "unseen monster, shadows, trees moving, someone screaming…death" It just reminds me too much of how Lost started out, and personally I just could not get into that show BECAUSE the 'unseen monster' was just way to overdone for me….
On the other hand Lost is somehow still on the air so maybe people do like that and I'm just the minority here
MikeQuote Reply
When I said wights I was including the Others into that category as well. You're right that it's easy to forget sometimes they're seperate
MikeQuote Reply
I think the thing with the Others/Wights is that they are only in the pilot briefly. We get some Wights again later in the series, but it isnt every episode.
Lost did the rustling trees and shadows EVERY episode, then had a random polar bear. Can see what you're saying, but not sure it's the same.
I wasn't aware that the wights and the others were seperate? I thought the Wights were Others?
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@Legion
The Others, so far, seem to be a totally separate race from humans. The physical descriptions do seem very similar to wights, but they have their own language, have weapons and armor totally dissimilar to those used by any living humans, and can apparently *create* wights. Wights wear clothes and armaments recognizable as from the Night's Watch or Wildlings, don't talk at all (Unless Coldhands is a wight, but he'd be the exception), and as far as I recall are not able to create wights, just kill people, though I suppose wights may just pop up from any and all corpses beyond the wall. I imagine the differences will be made clearer as the books progress, though it does seem possible that Others could just be very, very old, intelligent Wights who have developed their own culture. I do get the impression that Others predate the First Men, though. Not sure.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Ah, we're talking of 'The Others' as like a species name.
I was just looking at Wights as being Others, and there are likely other Others out there as well making up a group of different Others, lol.
Either way, the Wights work for the others/are others makes little difference.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Yep my bad. I should have been clearer and not grouped them together.
@Demokritos
my concern is that people might not be able to get passed the wights/others and see the well written and thought out characters in the story, especially for those that are new to the genre. People in Paul's #4 category. It could give the "this is just some stereotypical fantasy show' first impression.
Again, a lot of ifs and coulds.
JillianQuote Reply
Thanks for the clarification. I think the Other is in the book (and the pilot script) for a reason. It's the author's way of telling you that this stuff is real, right off the bat. We get a good, long look at it and it's supposed to freak us out. Any time someone laughs at the idea of things beyond The Wall, the Other should come to mind. Shadows and camera flashes are the cheap way, the easy way to apologize for its content. It won't get you very far, either. "What was that shit at the start?" "This guy at work read the books and said they were these ice zombies." "Ice zombies?" "He said some other shit, too, but yeah. Zombies.". Much better, in my mind, to show them and freak the audience out. People don't like fantasy, maybe, but a good scare is universal. Again, maybe it'll change, but right now there's a detailed scene with the Other in the pilot.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
all this talk about the others, and scaring people away brought me back to the original jacket text from the 1996 first edition of A Game of Thrones:
.
"Long ago, in a time forgotten, a preternatural event threw the seasons out of balance. In a land where summers can last decades and winters a lifetime, trouble is brewing.
The cold is returning, and in the frozen wastes to the north of Winterfell, sinister and supernatural forces are massing beyond the kingdom's protective Wall.
At the center of the conflict lie the Starks of Winterfell, a family as harsh and unyielding as the land they were born to.
Sweeping from a land of brutal cold to a distant summertime kingdom of epicurean plenty, here is a tale of lords and ladies, soldiers and sorcerers, assassins and bastards, who come together in a time of grim omens.
Here an enigmatic band of warriors bear swords of no human metal; a tribe of fierce wildlings carry men off into madness; a cruel young dragon prince barters his sister to win back his throne; and a determined woman undertakes the most treacherous of journeys.
Amid plots and counterplots, tragedy and betrayal, victory and terror, the fate of the Starks, their allies, and their enemies hangs perilously in the balance, as each endeavors to win that deadliest of conflicts: the game of thrones."
.
I'd sure as hell watch it. How about you?
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
***Spoilers from the script ahoy***
This is the scene from the prologue as described in the pilot script that was leaked. I still have severe misgivings about showing Wights right off the bat (fans of them/zombies may be disappointed they aren't in it much, people who don't like them may switch off instantly)
Anyway:
Gared struggles to keep his own horse under control. Ser
Waymar stands unsteadily, brushing the snow from his cloak.
WILL
(terrified)Gods…
He’s staring into the darkness at the edge of the clearing.
Ser Waymar turns to see what the young tracker sees: a shadow
emerging from the forest.
A figure steps into the moonlight, tall and gaunt, with flesh
pale as milk. It slides toward the rangers on silent feet.
Its armor appears to be carved from ice. Its sword is
translucent, a shard of crystal so thin it almost seems to
vanish when seen edge-on.
Ser Waymar’s voice cracks like a boy’s:
SER WAYMAR
Stay where you are!
The OTHER keeps coming. Ser Waymar draws his sword with
trembling hands. Will, standing near the fire pit, and Gared,
still on horseback, draw their own swords.
The Other halts. For the first time we see its eyes, bluer
than any human eyes, a blue that burns like ice.
They emerge silently from the shadows, on all sides of the
clearing. Five of them… six… seven… their strange
swords shimmering in the moonlight.
Gared can no longer control his panicked horse; it bolts from
the clearing, ignoring its rider’s commands.
The Others watch Gared flee. They turn back to Ser Waymar and
Will and begin to advance on the young men.
As the circle closes, the Others speak to each other in a
language we’ve never heard, with voices like cracking ice.
Waymar and Will stand together, class distinctions forgotten,
two boys about to die. They steady their sword hands and
mutter quick prayers as the Others descend upon them.
Paul was right, lots of very very clear shots of the Others/Wights.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
The big thing is that while I am 100% behind the promos shying away from the fantasy side of things and highlighting the things that are similar to shows they may already like, once they're watching the show should be 100% true to itself. We all know what comes at the end of the book, and there's no hiding it. Lost has the luxury of being able to be cryptic. If Game of Thrones tries that, I promise you there will be quite a few of press folks who won't hesitate to let everyone know what's in the book.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
"If Game of Thrones tries that, I promise you there will be quite a few of press folks who won't hesitate to let everyone know what's in the book."
That is a very good point.
JillianQuote Reply
The opening segment shouldn't be more than a few minutes and will probably have more of a suspense / horror vibe to it than a traditional "fantasy" vibe. This should ( hopefully ) hardly be enough to scare someone away from watching the rest of the episode, let alone the rest of the series. Also, this segment is very important because it lets the reader in on a little secret that the rest of the Seven Kingdoms is entirely ignorant to. While they fight each other and tear their alliances apart, we know that a even bigger threat is awakening. This makes all the events that transpire become that much more immediate and infuriating to the reader because we know if they don't pull their shit together, everyone may be doomed. Take this initial foresight away, and I think it changes much of the dynamic of what is transpiring in the Seven Kingdoms, as subtle as that dynamic may initially be.
More importantly, there should never be a feeling that the show has to compromise because it may "scare people off." IMO, the second they start down that road is the second when this show sets itself up to fail. I don't think people are against fantasy or fantastical elements. The problem is that people associate fantasy with cheese-ball movies with cliche story-lines and geeky undertones ( generalizing :) ). This series has a chance to show these viewers that there are actually really good fantasy stories out there, and once they realize that GoT is one of those they may find themselves really intrigued by the use of the fantastical elements. Keep in mind that most fantasy series are about 80% fantasy and 20% story, whereas GoT is more like %90 story and 10% fantasy.
ChrisQuote Reply
@Paul: I know you weren't arguing that the execution should be at the end of Episode 12; that comment was to the address of those who were.
@Demokritos: yes, actually, I did move Ned's death up to the middle of Episode 11. I'll be interested to see what you think.
The revision is done now, and I'm going to try to get it all posted in an unbroken string, so if you're reading this right now, would you mind refraining from posting for ten minutes or so? Thanks….
Alex
entomologistQuote Reply
The flip side to that is that the press may just as equally crap all over ice zombies that show up for 3 minutes and then vanish, bar one single appearence, until series 2.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Pilot: Prologue, 1B, 2C, 3D, 4N, 5J, 6C, 7A, 8B. Most of us already know what happens in this one from the leaked script.
Episode 2
9T. Tyrion finds Bran in the courtyard. Later he reprimands Joff for not going to pay his respects to the Starks. At dinner he comments that Bran is expected to live, and notes Cersei and Jaime’s reaction to that news. He then declares his intention to travel to the Wall when Benjen returns there. After Cersei leaves the table, he remarks that he hopes Bran does recover, as he's most interested to hear what the boy might have to say.
11Da. Dany's wedding celebration, with the presentation of her dragon eggs (I really hope the props department produces something fantastic, as we're going to be seeing the things frequently throughout the season), the three weapons her bodyguards will carry, her serving girls, and her mare. Scene ends with her asking Jorah to "tell my husband he has given me the wind."
10J. Jon visits Bran’s sickbed to pray over his comatose half-brother; Catelyn bitterly tells him, “it should have been you.” He then says his goodbyes to Robb, and presents Arya with Needle, before setting off for the Wall with his uncle and Tyrion.
12N. Ned goes for a ride with King Robert. Robert has learned from Varys of Dany's betrothal, and wants to have her assassinated; Ned says it would be dishonorable. Robert also intends to name Jaime Lannister Warden of the East in place of Little Lord Robert Arryn, which Ned feels would concentrate too much of the kingdom's military might in the hands of the Lannisters.
13T. Jon, Benjen, and Tyrion ride north to the Wall, concurrently with Ned's departure with the King and his entourage. Jon takes offense at Tyrion's description of the sorry state of the Night's Watch, and when Tyrion reaches to touch his shoulder in sympathy, Ghost knocks the dwarf to the ground. Later, seeing the kind of men Benjen picks up from a village magistrate to take to the Wall as recruits, Jon realizes Tyrion had a point.
11Db. The three day wedding celebration ends, and Dany and Drogo ride out to consummate their marriage. Dany is terrified at first, but finds her "savage" husband a surprisingly gentle and patient lover.
14Ca. Catelyn refuses to leave Bran's bedside to attend to her responsibilities for Winterfell in Ned's absence; Robb tells Maester Luwin he will make whatever decisions are necessary, with the Maester's advice and assistance. They are interrupted by the direwolves howling in reaction to the fire in the library (incidentally, a major clue that Tyrion was not responsible for the assassination attempt, as he would never have wanted the books burned). Scene ends with the assassination attempt being foiled by Bran's wolf.
15S. Arya and Sansa argue over the former's "unladylike" behavior on the journey. Sansa goes riding with Joff, who gets drunk at a farmstead. On the way back, they run into Arya and Mycah practicing swordsmanship. Joff challenges Mycah, but is attacked by Arya and Nymeria; the wolf mauls his arm, and Arya throws his sword in the river. Arya and her wolf run off, and Joff snaps at Sansa when she tries to help him.
14Cb. Catelyn and Ser Rodrik talk over the implications of the assassin's Valyrian steel dagger, and Catelyn's suspicion that Bran was too good a climber to have fallen without being pushed. They determine to travel to King's Landing together to try to uncover the truth.
16N. Joff lies about the incident with Arya, and Sansa refuses to contradict him; with Nymeria escaped into the woods, Cersei and Robert force Ned to kill Sansa's wolf Lady instead. Mycah's body is brought back to camp by the Hound. (Perhaps not the most dramatic final scene possible, but it's kind of a shocker, as most TV shows are shy about killing off sympathetic child characters.)
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 3
17Ba. Bran dreams of the three-eyed crow, who urges him to fly, and of his father and sisters surrounded by shadows — one beautiful and armored in gold, another with the head of a snarling dog. He looks north, to the wall and beyond it. This scene might play before the credits, ending with a reaction shot of Bran's terror at what he sees in the Heart of Winter.
19Ja. Jon trains under Ser Alliser Thorne at the wall, consistently beating the other recruits and showing his contempt for them. After he injures Grenn, the others try to gang up on Jon at night, but he holds them off until Donal Noye intervenes. Donal reproaches Jon for taking advantage of his superior training, pointing out that none of the other boys had the opportunity to study swordsmanship under a great castle's master-at-arms.
18Ca. Catelyn and Ser Rodrik arrive in Kings Landing and take rooms at an inn; Ser Rodrik goes to find Ser Aron Santagar, the Red Keep's master-at-arms, to ask him if he knows the dagger. A messenger brings Catelyn a letter from Littlefinger (here we might have a brief flashback to Catelyn's girlhood at Riverrun, introducing young Petyr Baelish).
23Da. We see a montage of Dany adapting to life on the Dothraki Sea — riding, wearing Dothraki garb, eating Dothraki food, learning a bit of the language, and having sex with Drogo in the standard Dothraki fashion (i.e. doggy-style).
17Bb. Bran recoils from the Heart of Winter. The crow tells him this is why he must live. Bran finally begins to fly; the crow pecks at his forehead and he awakens and names his direwolf.
19Jb. Jon, chastened by what Donal Noye told him, finds Grenn and offers to help him learn to fight better. Later he dines in the mess hall with Tyrion, who mentions his concern that Benjen, who had ridden out looking for Ser Waymar Royce, is overdue returning to Castle Black.
18Cb. Catelyn meets with Littlefinger and Varys, both of whom recognize the dagger. Littlefinger claims he once owned it, but lost it betting on Jaime Lannister in his joust against Ser Loras Tyrell on Joffrey's name day, and that the winner of that bet was Tyrion.
19Jc. Jon receives the news that Bran has awakened.
23Db. Dany defies Viserys for the first time in her life; her Dothraki bodyguard makes it stick, and Ser Jorah ignores Viserys' command to strike her, bowing before her instead. After Viserys storms off, Dany asks Ser Jorah if she has "woken the dragon;" he tells her that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and Viserys is only the shadow of a snake.
20Na. Ned has his first meeting with the King's Small Council as Hand, and learns of the disastrous state of the Crown’s finances. After the meeting, Littlefinger leads him out of the Red Keep by a secret route, and through the back streets of King's Landing to one of the brothels the Master of Coin owns.
21Ta. Tyrion mocks Ser Alliser over dinner, and talks with Lord Mormont about the Watch’s need for more men, promising he will do what he can to persuade the king to reinforce the Wall.
20Nb. Ned meets with Catelyn and Ser Rodrik in the brothel, and learns of the assassination attempt and Littlefinger's claim about the dagger's provenance. He wants to take his case to the king, but Littlefinger says there's no proof and advises him to forget about it (knowing that's the one thing a man like Ned can't possibly do, of course). Ned tells Catelyn to fortify Moat Cailin and keep close watch on Theon, in case they need to mobilize the Greyjoy fleet.
21Tb. Tyrion makes a last visit to the top of the Wall, where he runs into Jon. Jon asks him to help Bran, and Tyrion promises he will.
23Dc. Back in her tent, Dany notices the dragon eggs are warm, and falls asleep curled around them.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 4
22Aa. Arya storms off during dinner at the Hand's table, and when Ned follows her, he sees Needle. Arya refuses to tell her father where she got the sword. Ned doesn't press the issue, but pleads with her to stop quarrelling with her sister; he also tells her that she resembles Lyanna, and that Lyanna might have carried a sword had their father allowed it.
24Ba. Old Nan tells Bran the story of the Long Night and the Children of the Forest, but is interrupted by Tyrion's arrival at Winterfell. Robb is hostile to Tyrion at first, but warms up to him when the dwarf shows the boys his sketch of a saddle that might allow Bran to ride again. Greywind and Summer attack Tyrion, who leaves quickly after Robb and Bran call the wolves off.
23Dd. Dany talks with Doreah about the art of pleasing a man, and they practice a bit together. (Hopefully Tamzin and whoever they find to play Doreah won't mind doing a soft-core girl-girl sex scene…).
26Ja. Jon is teaching Gren, Pyp, and the other boys swordsmanship. Sam Tarly arrives at Castle Black, and Jon rallies his friends to protect the chubby new recruit from Ser Alliser's cruelty.
22Ab. Arya has her first "dancing lesson" with Syrio Forel.
24Bb. Yoren dines at Winterfell on his way to King’s Landing, bringing the news that Benjen is missing and presumed dead. Bran believe his uncle will be saved by the Children of the Forest. Maester Luwin says that the Children have been dead for thousands of years, but Yoren suggests that nobody really knows what might yet live beyond the Wall. (I don't think it's in the book, but either Yoren or Bran might point out that direwolves are supposed to be extinct, too.)
25Na. Ned meets with Grand Maester Pycelle, who tells him Jon Arryn was worried about something but otherwise healthy until shortly before his death. Ned asks if he could have been poisoned, and the Grand Maester opines that poison is a woman's weapon, or a coward's. (SPOILER! Of course, we ultimately learn that it was a woman, Lysa, and a coward, Littlefinger, who conspired to poison Lord Arryn.) Pycelle warns Ned not to trust Varys, and tells him that Cersei was not in King's Landing when the previous Hand died. Finally, he loans Ned the book Jon Arryn was reading before his death.
28Ca. Catelyn and Ser Rodrik arrive at the Inn at the Crossroads; they dine, and then notice Tyrion arriving with two Lannister soldiers and Yoren.
23De. Dany makes love to Drogo under the stars.
25Nb. Littlefinger suggest that Ned might want to question Ser Hugh of the Vale, squire to Jon Arryn who was knighted after his Lord died, and three other servants of the former Hand who remained in King's Landing when Lady Lysa removed her household to the Vale. He also points out the two spies outside Ned's window — one Varys', the other Cersei's, and cautions Ned to send one of his men to question the servants, rather than doing it himself.
28C. Catelyn seizes Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn. (I hope they have a good set for that inn, considering how it keeps cropping up in one book after another.)
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 5
27Na. Ned puzzles over the book Jon Arryn was reading, Grand Maester Malleon's Lineages of the Great Houses. Jory Cassel tells him the only thing he's been able to discover from Littlefinger's leads is that Jon spent a great deal of time with Lord Stannis, who left for Dragonstone shortly after his death and cannot be reached.
31Ta. Catelyn's party, with Tyrion and his two retainers as prisoners, make their way into the Mountains of the Moon, Tyrion attempting to convince Catelyn of his innocence. When the threat of the mountain clans becomes apparent, Catelyn reluctantly allows the Lannisters to be armed, and they prepare to defend themselves.
29Sa. Sansa watches the first day of the Tourney of the Hand, and sees Ser Hugh slain by the Mountain that Rides. At the end of the day, the lists are down to four contenders: the Mountain, The Hound, the Knight of Flowers, and the Kingslayer.
27Nb. Ned and Jory pay an evening visit to the armorer Tobho Mott (in the book this happened before the tournament, but I think having them slip away in the evening after the first day of the tournament could actually work better, as the crowding and revelry should make it easier to move anonymously, and the armorer might have a tent set up at the tournament, rather than being in his shop in town). Ned learns that the reason Jon Arryn and Lord Stannis visited Mott was to meet his apprentice Gendry; Ned immediately recognized Gendry's resemblance to King Robert. Mott tells them that an anonymous lord paid him twice the normal apprentice fee to take Gendry on, and that he considers it quite a bargain, as the boy has a genuine gift for the armorer's art. Ned can't see what this might have had to do with Lord Arryn's death.
26Jb. Jon and Sam dine together and walk outside afterward; Jon talks about his recurring dream of returning to Winterfell and finding it abandoned, and Sam explains how his father disowned him and forced him to take the Black. Jon comments on the curious kind of courage it takes for a nobly born boy to admit himself a coward.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 5 (continued)
29Sb. Sansa dines with the king and queen, and witnesses an argument between them. In the wake of the argument, Joffrey dismisses her, ordering the Hound to escort her back to the Red Keep. Sansa tries to make small talk about the tourney, and Sandor tells her that Ser Hugh's death was no accident — Gregor's lancepoint goes exactly where he wants it to. He also tells her the truth about how his face was scarred, and threatens to kill her if she ever reveals it to anyone.
30Na. Ned tries to talk Robert out of fighting in the tournament melee, but Robert only backs down when told that no knight would dare fight back against him, as he is their sovereign ruler. Robert admits to Ned that he believes Joff lied about the fight with Arya, and wonders how he could have fathered such an unpleasant child. He is miserable in his marriage, and considering setting Cersei aside in favor of the sister of another lord (though he doesn't say who, later events make it clear he's referring to Margaery Tyrell).
31Tb. Catelyn, Tyrion, and their party fight off the mountain men; Bronn distinguishes himself, Tyrion's two Lannister soldiers are killed, and the Imp saves Catelyn's life. After the fight, he tells her that Littlefinger had to have lied: Tyrion never bets against Jaime in a tournament.
30Nb. Ned watches the climax of the tournament: the Hound unseats Jaime, and Ser Loras defeats The Mountain, who kills his own horse in his rage, then turns on the younger knight until his brother intervenes. After the Kingsguard break up the fight, Loras concedes the tourney purse to the Hound rather than joust against a man who just saved his life.
23Df. In a brief scene on the Dothraki Sea, Irri (or was it Jhiqui?) observes that Dany is pregnant; she says that she knows, but we are not told that it's her fourteenth name day (squick!).
30Nc. Varys visits Ned in his chambers and warns him that Cersei had intended that Robert should die in the melee that day, and that she fears Ned because Robert would never harm him, no matter how insistently Cersei demanded it. He also claimed that the slain Ser Hugh was Jon Arryn's killer, and that Arryn was killed because he was asking questions.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 6
32Aa. Arya chases cats, and overhears Varys plotting with Magister Illyrio in the bowels of the Red Keep.
34Ca. Catelyn arrives at the Vale of Arryn and meets with her uncle, Brynden the Blackfish, who tells her of his concerns about Lysa's instability and paranoia, and her son's feebleness of body and mind.
32Ab. Arya tries to tell Ned what she overheard, but he dismisses her somewhat garbled rendition of the conversation in the dungeons
34Cb. Catelyn arrives at the Eyrie, and finds that her sister and nephew are even crazier than the Blackfish had suggested they were.
33Na. Robert learns of Dany’s pregnancy and demands her assassination. Ned threatens to resign, but most of Robert's other lords are all for it, making various suggestions as to how to accomplish it (this scene includes the first mention of the Faceless Men of Braavos).
36Da. Dany, Drogo, and Ser Jorah discuss the feasibility of the Dothraki invasion of Westeros Viserys desires. Drogo believes the Dothraki would prevail in the open field, but is worried about the necessity for siege warfare against castles. Jorah opines that King Robert is the kind of man who would want to take his armies out to fight the Dothraki head-on, but his lords would be wise enough not to allow it, making it a difficult campaign for the khalasar.
33Nb. Littlefinger talks Ned out of resigning, promising to show him the brothel Jon Arryn and Lord Stannis were seen visiting together.
41Ja. Jon, Grenn, Pyp, and the rest of their cohort are promoted; Sam is not, and Jon worries about leaving him at the non-existent mercy of Ser Alliser and the younger recruits.
38Ta. Tyrion spends some miserable time in the Eyrie's sky cells
35Na. Ned and Littlefinger visit the brothel and see Robert’s latest black-haired bastard.
36Db. Dany tries to make peace with her brother, but ends up slapping him after he spits on her gift of Dothraki clothing.
38Tb. Tyrion manages to talk Mord the gaoler into providing him with some information and decent food by telling him of the wealth of the Lannisters and the fact that they always pay their debts (Mord, of course, is too stupid to realize that what Tyrion feels he owes him is a nice vacation in the dungeons under Casterly Rock…).
35Nb. On the way back to the Red Keep, Ned's party are set upon by Jaime and his men; Ned’s soldiers are killed and his leg broken.
37Ba. Bran, Rob, and Theon ride out from Winterfell to hunt. Bran is left alone and set upon by wildlings.. The wildlings' talk reveals that they are scouts for Mance Rayder, who will pay well for a Stark prisoner. The midpoint of the season is a double cliffhanger: both Bran and Ned are in serious trouble we won't find out their fates until next week.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 7
40Ca. Catelyn worries about Little Lord Robert’s upbringing and the repercussions of her capture of Tyrion. She wants to see Robert fostered out at Casterly Rock, to get him out from under Lysa's toxic influence and also make peace with the Lannisters, but learns that Lord Arryn intended to foster him with Lord Stannis at Dragonstone.
37Bb. Bran is rescued from the wildlings by Robb and Theon; the sole survivor, Osha, returns to Winterfell with them as a prisoner.
39N. An injured Ned is visited by Robert and Cersei; Cersei blames him for the fight, but Ned denies it, telling the king what really happened and demanding justice for his murdered retainers. Robert refuses to punish Jaime or his men. Ned says he will resign and return to Winterfell, and Robert threatens to make Jaime his hand if Ned does so.
46D. Drogo's khalasar arrives in Vaes Dothrak; this scene gives us a nice tour of the city, with its stolen idols and sprawling market. Ser Jorah explains the laws of Vaes Dothrak (no weapon may be drawn there on pain of death, etc.).
41Jb. Jon asks Maester Aemon to try to have Sam promoted along with the rest of his friends, so he won’t be left unprotected. The Maester promises to consider it.
40Cb. Tyrion is brought before Lady Lysa and Little Lord Robert for judgement, and demands trial by combat (Little Lord Robert throws a tantrum when told that he can't "make him fly" yet).
37Bc. In a slight change from the order of events in the book, the news of the fight, Ned's injury, and the murder of Jory and his soldiers arrives at Winterfell (in the book this happened at the beginning of this chapter, before the ill-fated hunt). Robb is encouraged to call the banners for a war against House Lannister, but doesn't yet commit to do so.
43N. Ned learns of The Mountain’s raids on the Riverlands, and dispatches Lord Beric Dondarrion with a force of the King’s soldiers to execute him.
40Cc. Bronn defeats Sir Vardis as Tyrion’s champion, and he and Tyrion depart the Eyrie; Lysa refuses to provide them with an escort.
46Db. Dany learns about the ritual involved in her upcoming presentation to the Dosh Khaleen. Drogo heartily greets the other khals currently in residence, and invites them to feast with him after the rite.
44S. Sansa and Arya fight, Ned tells them to prepare for the journey back to Winterfell, and when Sansa protests that she wants to marry Joff and bear him beautiful blond children, Ned is struck by a sudden realization.
42T. Tyrion tells Bronn the story of his marriage to Tysha, then talks the wildlings into joining them instead of killing them ("I'm going to give you the Vale of Arryn" makes a pretty good last line for the episode, I think).
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 8
48Ja. Jon and Sam learn of their assignment as stewards. Jon is angry, as he wanted to be a ranger, but Sam points out that being Lord Mormont's steward suggests he's being groomed for command.
45N. Ned confronts Cersei with the truth about her incest-born bastards, and warns her to go into exile in the Free Cities before he informs Robert. She mocks him for his lack of ambition, and warns him that when you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die.
46Dc. Dany is presented to the Dosh Khaleen, who prophesy that her child will be the Stallion Who Mounts the World.
47Na. Ned learns that Robert has been mortally wounded on the boar hunt, that he was drunk when he faced the boar, and that it was a Lannister squire who supplied the wine; he visits the king on his deathbed, but doesn't have the heart to tell him the truth about "his" children. Robert appoints Ned Joffrey's regent.
48Jb. Jon and Sam ride out beyond the wall to take their vows in a weirwood grove.
47Nb. Ned writes to Stannis inviting him to take the throne as Robert’s legitimate heir, tells his guards to prepare for trouble from the Lannisters.
53Ba. Osha settles into her role as a servant at Winterfell, and tells Bran stories of life beyond the wall, and the magical creatures that still exist there — she's seen giants with her own eyes, heard rumors of the Children of the Forest, and seen the remains of folk slain by the Others.
47Nc. Ned arranges with Littlefinger to have the Gold Cloaks assist him in arresting Cersei, Joff, and their retainers once Robert dies.
46Dd. Viserys complains about his less-than-honored seat at the feast, and draws his sword on Dany when she tries to placate him. Khal Drogo crowns him with molten gold.
48Jc. On the way back to the Wall, Ghost finds a severed hand in the forest.
49N. Ned is betrayed by the Gold Cloaks and arrested.
50A. Syrio enables Arya to elude the Lannister soldiers, and she witnesses the slaughter of the Stark retainers in the Tower of the Hand, retrieves Needle, kills the stable boy who tries to stop her, and escapes through the dungeons.
It might be a good idea to add at least one scene with Tyrion and one with Catelyn somewhere in the episode: perhaps Tyrion trying to obtain lodging at inn while keeping the mountain men from destroying it, and Catelyn talking with Brynden, who agrees to leave the Vale with her. There might also be a brief scene somewhere in the middle of Lord Beric's initial clash with The Mountain.
entomologistQuote Reply
Legion, yep, but I'd rather give the users something they can judge for themselves. Good point, Chris. Thanks, Alex! I was just worried for a second. Can't wait for the update!
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Episode 9
51Sa. Sansa is imprisoned with Jeyne Poole, but refuses to believe her friend's descriptions of the slaughter of Ned's people in the Tower of the Hand.
52Ja. Jon recovers the bodies of Benjen’s men
53Bb. The Stark bannermen assemble at Winterfell; the Greatjon challenges Robb's authority, but laughs it off and becomes Robbs most fervent supporter after Greywind bites off two of his fingers ("Your meat, my lord, is bloody tough!").
54Da. Drogo tells Dany that he is no longer interested in invading Westeros now that Viserys is dead; Dany goes to the Vaes Dothrak market with Ser Jorah.
51Sb. Cersei coerces Sansa into writing a letter denouncing her father as a traitor, and another one addressed to him, begging him to confess.
52Jb. Jon gets into a fight with Ser Alliser when the news of Ned’s arrest arrives at the wall, and is confined to his quarters under guard.
53Bc. Robb and his army ride out from Winterfell to confront the Lannisters, ignoring Osha’s warnings that the greater danger lies beyond the Wall.
54Db. A wine merchant attempts to poison Daenerys, and reveals the bounty Robert had placed on her head.
58Na. Imprisoned in the black cells, Ned dreams of the Tower of Joy and the death of his sister.
52Jc. Jon awakens at a noise, finds his guard slain, and battles the wights that have reanimated and attempted to kill Lord Mormont.
54Dc. Upon learning of the assassination attempt and the reason for it, Drogo changes his mind and commits to invade Westeros and seize the Iron Throne for his bride.
57Sa. Sansa attends Joffrey's first court session, where a list of lords (most of them not present, of course) who must swear fealty to Joff or be declared traitors is read, including Robb, Stannis, Renly, and Mace Tyrell.
55Ca. Catelyn meets up with Robb and his army at Moat Cailin, where she reads Sansa's letter, and learns that the Lannisters are closing in on Riverrun.
56Ta. Tyrion and his mountain men join up with Lord Tywin’s host on the Green Fork, learning that Edmure Tully has been captured by Jaime's forces at Riverrun, but that the Lannister supply lines are still being harassed by Beric Dondarrion.
57Sb. Sansa pleads for mercy for her father, which Cersei assures her will be granted if Ned will confess to treason and swear fealty to Joff.
55Cb. Robb explains his daring plan to divide his force, sending the foot to confront Lord Tywin while the cavalry make for Riverrun to lift the siege there. Catelyn persuades him to place Roose Bolton in command of the infantry instead of Greatjon Umber.
56Tb. An outrider informs Lord Tywin that Robb's army is approaching; Tywin offers Tyrion's mountain men payment in gold and weapons if they will join in the upcoming battle.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 10
61Da. Drogo's khalasar attacks Khal Ogo's khalasar, which is in the process of sacking a Lazareen village. After the battle, Dany makes Drogo's men stop raping the surviving Lazareen girls, taking them as her handmaidens.
59Ca. Robb's army arrives at the Twins and finds the crossing closed. Some of his bannermen want to attack the castle, but Catelyn argues that it is impractical to beseige because they cannot surround both sides of it, and that even if they could take the East keep by assault the Freys will just retreat across the bridge, an assault across which would be ruinously costly. Catelyn says she will negotiate with Lord Walder, but warns Robb that the price of his aid will be high.
58Nb. Varys visits Ned in his cell, and informs him of Tyrion’s release, Arya’s disappearance, and the choice of confession and exile to the Wall, or death for Sansa as well as himself.
60Ja. Jon is given Longclaw by Lord Mormont, who explains its history and the reason it isn't going to his son.
56Tc. Tyrion tells Bronn to fetch him a whore; Bronn returns with Shae.
59Cb. Catelyn strikes her bargain with Lord Walder Frey, enabling Robb’s cavalry to cross the Green Fork and add the Freys to his forces.
61Db. Drogo is wounded, and Dany gets Mirri Maz Duur to treat him, also extracting a promise to assist with her own birthing.
62Ta & 63Ca. The episode climaxes with a long sequence cutting back and forth between the battle of the Green Fork and the Battles of the Whispering Woods and the Camps outside of Riverrun; the Stark infantry ultimately retreat from their attack on Lord Tywin's host, but at Riverrun Robb wins a stunning victory, capturing the Kingslayer and many of the Lannister vassels, shattering and scattering their army, and taking minimal losses of his own, though Jaime cuts down several of Robbs companions, including two sons of Lord Rickard Karstark.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 11
65Aa. Arya skulks and tries to survive in the alleys of Flea Bottom, until she finds herself being swept along with the crowd to the Great Sept of Baelor.
63Cb. Riverrun celebrates the lifting of the siege and the capture of the Kingslayer; Robb's men no longer have doubts, as the untested boy who led them south is now the hero of the two most one-sided military victories in living memory. Catelyn is pleased with the campaign thus far, but warns Robb against overconfidence, as Tywin's host is still strong, and Tywin himself is a far cannier commander than the impetuous Jaime.
62Tb. In the aftermath of the battle, the Lannisters at the Green Fork learn that the attack they just beat off was a feint — the real thrust was at Riverrun.
64Da. Drogo falls from his horse, and Dany begs Mirri Maz Duur to heal him. She says the khal is beyond her abilities, but then admits that there might be a way — a magical spell, but it is dangerous, costly, and uncertain. Dany asks her to try, whatever the cost.
65Ab. Ned confesses to treason, and Joff orders Ser Ilyn to execute him anyway. We do not actually witness his death; just as in the book, our POV is Arya, and Yoren pulls her aside so that she doesn't see the killing stroke.
66Ba. Bran dreams his father spoke to him in the crypt; when he and Maester Luwin go down there, the Maester is attacked by Shaggydog, until Summer subdues his littermate. Bran, Rickon, the Maester and the wolves return aboveground, but Bran continues to insist his dream was true. The Maester begins telling the boys what he know of the Children of the Forest — how their wise men, the greenseers, carved the faces in the weirwoods, and how they forged knives and arrowheads of dragonglass (of which he has a few to show them) deep beneath the earth. Osha puts in that the children still forge dragonglass beyond the Wall.
60Jb. Upon the mention of the wall, we cut to Jon, who talks to Maester Aemon about his divided loyalties, and learns the truth of the Maester’s Targaryen heritage.
64Db. Dany sacrifices Drogo's horse to empower the spell. The khal's bloodriders try to stop the maegi from working her spell on Drogo, and Dany's bodyguards slay them when they offer violence to their khaleesi.
66Bb. The raven bearing the news of Ned's death arrives at Winterfell; Maester Aemon reads the message, and says, "We will have to find a stonecarver who knew his likeness well."
64Dc. Dany goes into labor during the ritual, and against her protests, Jorah carries her into the tent.
entomologistQuote Reply
Episode 12
68Da. Dany awakens from her coma, learns that her child was stillborn, and sees what kind of "life" the maegi's spell has left Drogo; Mirri mocks her, telling her that she knew what the price would really be, and that the Stallion Who Mounts the World will ravage no towns now.
70Ja. Jon learns of his father's death. Sam knows him well enough to realize what he'll do, but Jon doesn't believe his friend will betray him, and rides out from the Wall in the night.
67Sa. Sansa is grieving in her room, until Joff forces her to attend court with him.
69Ta. The Lannister host on the Green Fork receives the news of Jaime's stunning defeat at Riverrun, and of Ned's execution, which makes it impossible for them to come to terms with Robb. Cersei wants them to return to King's Landing to defend the city against the threat of the Baratheon brothers, but Tywin chooses to march against the Northmen instead.
68Db. Dany tries to awaken Drogo by making love to him, but nothing works. Finally, she smothers him rather than leave him alive but mindless.
70Jb. Instead of telling the Lord Commander or any of their other superiors, Sam has told Jon's other friends of his desertion. They catch up with him near Mole's Town, insisting that they are his brothers and that if he deserts, then they're going with him. Jon gives in and returns to the Wall.
67Sb. Joff shows Sansa her father's head on the battlements, and makes the Kingsguard beat her when she defies him. Only the Hound dares to show her a hint of kindness.
69Tb. Tywin dispatches Tyrion to King's Landing; defying his father's orders, Tyrion takes Shae with him.
71Ca. Catelyn visits her dying father, then finds Robb in the Godswood with his men, debating their response to Ned's execution.
72Da. Dany prepares Drogo's funeral pyre, binding Mirri Maz Duur near the center of it; she asks her bodyguards to become her bloodriders, but they refuse, as a woman cannot be a khal. Dany ignores their refusals, and when the fire reaches its full height, she walks into it with her dragon eggs.
70Jc. Lord Mormont tells Jon of his intention to lead the majority of the rangers beyond the Wall to seek Mance Rayder's army, and that he wishes Jon to accompany them.
71Cb. Robb and his lords agree to continue the fight against the Lannisters, and the Greatjon leads the other lords to acclaim Robb King in the North.
72Db. Daenerys emerges from the ashes completely hairless but otherwise unharmed, and the night comes alive with the music of dragons.
entomologistQuote Reply
Oh man. I just visited "Merlin" on YouTube and after 3 minutes and 43 seconds I hadda shut the dang thing off and come over here. It was TERRIBLE.
1.) Total kiddy fare. Harry Potter wannabe knock-off snooze-a-thon.
2.) Cliché, cliché, cliché, cliché! "A young man…with the gift of magic…a destiny…blah blah blah…(snore)" "I, Uther Pendragon, hereby BAN MAGIC from the land!" and the crowd goes, "Ooh!" Laugh. A. Bull.
3.) Old Witch Woman ™ with some of the cheesiest old-age make-up this side of "Army o' Darkness" starts awailin' incoherently and the villagers in their Supercuts hair-do's and their brown bath-towel capes step aside so she can give us all she's got: "TheRE iS OnlY oNe eVIL In thIs LAnd aNd it IS YoU, UthER PEndrAgoNnnNnNnn!!!"
Fantasy sucks because fantasy sucks–make fantasy that doesn't suck and it won't suck.
There is a fantasy audience that will eat up all things fantasy. HBO needs to absolutely, sorry, ignore these people. Was "300" a fantasy movie? Was it marketed as a fantasy movie? It had cgi critters and witches, capes and a prophecy, a giant or two–but no, it wasn't a fantasy movie, 'cause folks didn't go to it to see a fantasy movie; it was a kick-ass action movie w/some fantasy elements. No one ever got the idea it was for kids and it made bank. But it surely could have been marketed as a fantasy movie and died the death.
300: blood and rage and nekkid peeps.
HBO: Blood and Rage and Nekkid Peeps 'Я' Us!
HBO is gonna market this show like it's a bloody "M" rated video game with awesome dialogue. Or "24 in Medieval Times."
And another thing: seen any character driven fantasy lately? No you haven't. Not even Lord of the Freakin' Rings is character driven (well, maybe the extended version on DVD… ;) ). GoT is character driven, it's soap opera, it's serial. It's "I can't believe he just did that, what will he do next?" It's "these people are just plain evil, can't wait to see next week!" It's "Christ, am I glad I don't live in medieval times!"
Think back to when they were in the planning stages for "Deadwood." Imagine there was a blog like this one (don't underestimate GoT as an IP, it's got serious legs and a huge fanbase that something like "Deadwood" could only dream of). What western tv dramas would they have pointed to and said, "Uh-oh, westerns don't sell." Who here watched "Deadwood" 'cause it was a western?
Sure, there's a stigma against fantasy, but that's because of all the monumentally bad fantasy out there. Breaking that stigma will be easy, as long as you break it and don't perpetuate it with dreck. Cutting out the kiddy market is a good first step.
HKCavalierQuote Reply
@etomologist
nicely done! looking forward to reading through your episode breakdowns. maybe the writing team should have a look at it as well, as their cliffnotes for the first season :)
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
And as for not showing the Others in the teaser–that kinda thing SCREAMS lame–yes, it's "Lost: in Medieval Times!" or "Congo: 1300 AD!" It screams, "We didn't have a budget so we're goin' 'artsy' and hoping you don't notice." No. You go horror, full-on, no-holds-bared R-rated turn-your-head-from-the-screen horror. Not cheesy zombie slathered-in-latex horror, but Japanese what-the-eff-was-that-jesus-were-those-the-thing's-hands??? horror! You focus on the psychological–show the audience that our boys never had a CHANCE–and they know it. You get real actors who can show the proper level of real terror and utter disbelief, followed by the steely resolve to die on their feet. And you show them dying. You show blood. You show it all. Then Sam Jackson in Jerry Curls says, "I'm sorry, were you expecting Unicorns and Rainbows?"
Anyone see "40 Days of Night?" That wasn't half bad. Y'know what? Though there is a stigma regarding fantasy in film and television, I don't know that there's any stigma about horror per se. There's good horror and there's bad horror. But infusing a Medieval Epic with horror elements is not exactly a cliché anywhere. No one's gonna say, "Medieval Zombies? Oh that is SO last year!"
It occurs to me, that if there IS a stigma against horror it might just be in the fantasy community! lol Lot's of fantasy readers want the knights and ladies and castles and dragons, but they might be put off by blood and guts and silent undead ripping people apart. Oh well, can't please everyone! :D
HKCavalierQuote Reply
@etomologist
Well done.
JillianQuote Reply
My thoughts on the brilliant breakdown by Entomologist:
Episode 2: Yeah, odd ending, but I like the idea of it ending with the Hound smirking about Mycah. If they wish to make him a complex character, it'd be a good way to set him up as 'evil' before he gets drunk and pitiful.
Episode 3: I'd like to see Ser Rodick getting his beard shaved on the boat. Going to be odd that he would have a beard in ep2 then in ep3 be in KL without it.
Episode 4: Was never comfortable with the random lesbian scenes, i'm a guy, but still, they always seemed a bit thrown in. Love the final scene being Tyrion's face when everyone stands up to take him.
Episode 5: 29Sa will need to be a big showy scene. I think 31Tb is a better place to end the show, with Tyrion saying he never bets against his family.
Episode 6: Id swap Bran and Ned around. Maybe end the episode with Ned craddling Jory, very powerful emotionally, although you do lose the double cliffhanger that way…
Episode 7: 39N – doesn't Cersei get hit here? The order from the book change works. Excellent last line.
Episode 8: In what scene does Robert die? Does he die off camera? Not sure the Tyrion or Catelyn scenes are needed, but yeah, they could be added just so everyone is in each episode. The crown of gold is such an epic scene, i'd prefer to have it end the episode myself.
Episode 9: Ned's dream will, I' have thought, include a blurry flashback. Maybe too much is happening in this episode? Dull ending to the episode – i'd swap the last two scenes, ending with Robb's war council.
Episode 10: That battle scene would be cool…….but also expensive and possibly if cutting between two battles, posibly confusing. A victory ending with people cheering works well though before we hit eps 11 and 12.
Episode 11: I seem to be in the minority, but having Ned's death mid episode doesn't work for me. I like that it's a shock and that you have to wait a week to find out if that was really the end of Ned.
Episode 12: I suggested an idea where we split between Robb being proclaimed King in the North and Dany being proclaimed Mother of Dragons. Because it was my idea, im bias and like the way it sounds. The dragons are obviously going on last.
Excellent job Entomologist. Makes it seem almost like it's really real rather than god knows how long away!
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Legion, I'd rather they do it right and have an idiot crap all over something the audience can judge for themselves than have them not show anything and let critics crap all over an idea that an audience never got a chance to see.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
(Sorry, slight double post. Didn't think the first one went through.)
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Entomologist
I like ending episode 2 with the hound. It's a great line.
I think the Dany/gifts scene was in the leaked pilot script.
JillianQuote Reply
But Paul, how can the audience judge anything if they tune in – see bloody battle with zombies, then the zombies piss off and they get high end politics and intrigue.
Seems to me it's a bit of a damnded if you do, damned if you don't scenerio.
If they go all out fantasy battle right away they might lose the people who've tuned in expecting something more high brow. If they don't go all out fantasy, they might get attacked by the press but might also get attacked by the fantast crowd who expect more zombies and get……well, don't get them!
Whatever they do, I'm still going to watch, so meh.
Let's talk more about entomologists break down. What about the notes I made on it? Anyone agree disagree with what he thinks and my thoughts on that?
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@legion
Agreed, I think we've hashed should they or should they not not death. Let's just hope whatever they do works and we get a series out of it :) I'll watch it, I'll buy it, enough said.
Episode 2: I think it works. If the Dany scene is in the pilot they could add a Dothraki travelling scene instead. in the book Dany tells how the road so long and she got sores and was about ready to end it, before she had a dream. Showing this and adding more "Visery's is a dick and she looks up to him moments" could strengthen the scene when it finally clicks what a fool he is. Again I like the Hound.
Episode 3: Agree that we should see the beard being shaved should be shown. I'm not sure If I'd break up the Bran awakening scene, but that's just me.
Episode 4: Like it.
Episode 6: I like opening with Arya over-hearing the Varys and Ilirio.
I think somewhere before this we need a Rob scene. We'll probably get him talking to Catelyn before the attack on Bran, but he doesn't get much screen-time before he calls the banners.
JillianQuote Reply
Alex, I think this is perfect. The scene with Ned was by far the thing that I was hoping you'd get right, and it worked for me. I really did get the feeling from the set-up that Dany walking into the fire was a plan to die with her husband, which makes the end more unexpected and powerful.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Entomologist
As expected, excellent job. Ignoring the chapter numbers and your notes on reordering, it would be very, very easy to think that's all exactly how it happened in the books, which is how it should seem onscreen. Also a lot of nice details. I've been planning on re-reading the books in preparation for ADwD soon (Optimistic, I know), and this makes me half contemplate skipping AGoT. I probably won't, since George is such a great writer, but I think I could and still follow ACoK perfectly.
@Legion
Ep 2: Complete agreement. I also think at this point, there's no reason to expect Mycah to be less important than, say, Theon. While he's not too developed yet, neither is anyone else, so I think there's solid shock value. Especially for non-readers.
Ep 8: I agree on the crown of gold being epic, but I think the Stark plotline is more central here, so ending with Arya's first kill might still make more sense, and I think having that right after Ned's betrayal is also the right move. Possibly move Ghost finding a hand before Viserys's death, though that's not a huge difference. I like the idea of throwing in Tyrion and/or Catelyn for just a minute to keep them in the viewer's mind, and to sort of drive home the way Catelyn and Tyrion are in relatively peaceful situations right now, totally oblivious to the major shitstorm not that far away in King's Landing.
Ep 9: I've been thinking about the dream sequences. Ned's might not count since it's a memory, not prophetic, but in general I've been thinking they need to be really vibrant and clear, but with surreal imagery. Again, I don't think Ned's dream is described as differing from the facts much, but you could still have Lyanna, pale on a bed stained bloody but otherwise pure white, with the background totally black, or something. This way you get a clear image of what's described in the book without necessarily having any more heads up on exactly what's depicted than a reader would.
On the ending, it does seem dull. I think maybe Alex put Robb's council before the outrider's report for continuity (Since the council would be before his troops are headed there), but the viewer could probably figure it out. Or they could throw in a quick shot afterward which actually depicts Robb's forces on their way, while keeping things in order.
Ep 10: I was thinking the same thing about the battles. It might be confusing to show them separately anyway, though, since they happen at the same time. Perhaps they should just make the settings very distinct: Green Fork bright and sunny, focus heavily on people previously mentioned as going there, with Whispering Wood shady, sun only coming through the leaves and mottling everything, and again focusing on characters we know are there, not at Green Fork.
Ep 11: I think the problem is that we really don't get better confirmation about Ned's death, except by the increasing unlikelihood of a deception as time wears on and as we better learn that GRRM is a monster of inhuman cruelty. I've already rambled enough on this, though.
Ep 12: Definitely makes sense to bring out the parallels. Not only is it dramatic, but it helps to thematically connect the two stories, which I'm guessing George would have done more of if he'd known he'd write at least 4 (Probably 5) books before Dany gets to Westeros.
DemokritosQuote Reply
Just thought I should note, there are no wights in the leaked pilot script. Just Others. It deviates from the book there.
Paul JQuote Reply
Thoroughly enjoyed your post entomologist! I actually learned a few new things from it too, even though I've read the books twice (like the Tyrion/library hint was new to me, and I had forgotten that great reveal from Sansa about the blond children).
The only question I have is: where is Arya in episode 12? Is it a bad move to leave her absent? Can we show the scene where Yoren is cutting her hair and preparing her for the journey North?
MegQuote Reply
Great work, entomologist!
@Meg: As a solution for Arya missing in the last episode, we could imagine a collage of silent scenes accompanied by music, shortly visiting each of the main characters (bar Robb and Dany, or just Dany, depends on where you insert it) which would also include Arya's hair being cut off. Then it ends with the last scene(s). Dunno.
Must say I was surprised to see such a confusion reagrding the undead wights and the magical race of Others. Didn't expect that from ardent followers. Anyway, in the script draft there are only Others, and no fight is shown on screen, just horror and the implication of the deadly outcome.
MarkoQuote Reply
I like Marko's idea about the silent scenes. And as for the Others, they are going to be present on screen for like, what, 10 seconds? Less than 10.
gorangligovicQuote Reply
i mentioned this early. but when arya is snatched from baelor's sept by yoren, it will be strange to wait a whole episode, then a whole season, to essentially continue that scene, and pick it up with her haircut and new nickname (arry).
things like this will also have to be considered, as the timeline from book 1 to book 2 is pretty much immediately subsequent.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
It will be interesting to see how focused the show will be on Arya and her storyline.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@legion
she is a main character in the 2nd book, and her journey to harrenhall is pretty important to developing the goings on around westeros.
i still don't know how you resolve the book 1 > book 2 cliffhanger with her with the same gap that the books have.
curious how that is handled, and if they reveal what happens to her in the alley before season 2.
it brings up a point. they HAVE to leave king's landing after that scene at baelor's sept, and not return to it at all, without paying off the storylines which are revealed in the beginning of season 2.
so if they do the ned dealio in episode 11, then they shouldn't go back to king's landing right? i think it just would be out of linearity on screen whereas it is more forgivable to jump forward then back in time in the books.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
While Arya is an important character, I wonder if she will be as important on screen. It's very rare to find a show where a child is a main character that isnt a children's show.
I was suprised that she wasn't aged up tbh.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@legion –
Well, that's one of the great things about SoIaF, its different from what readers are used to. You could argue that most books that aren't children's books don't feature children as main characters either. I hope they don't change a lot of what makes SoIaF great because it may not be "traditional."
Either way, as @invert said, she is pretty important to providing eyes for a lot of events and characters outside of King's Landing. Plus, I think Georgy has a lot more in store for the younger Starks towards the end of the story, so he may be loathe to significantly change their roles in the books, as would I.
ChrisQuote Reply
It will definitely be interesting to see though, its a lot of ask of an 11 year old actress to carry a story line basically by herself.
ChrisQuote Reply
what is great about ASoIaF as well, is that there are 8 POV characters in book 1, 9 in book 2, 10 in book 3, and 7 in book 4.
that means each character gets to carry their story, one chapter at a time. it is also what creates the sprawling epic feeling, while allowing each POV to be intimate.
it's also why it's going to work so damn well on screen. i have every faith! it truly was developed as a more episodic version of an epic the scale of LotR.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Time for my breakdown – not so great and with much less details as Entomologist's
Ep2: Begins with Lannister's breakfast and end with Bran's awekining: His name is Summer
Ep3: Begins with Cat's arrival in KL and ends with Dany's pregnancy
Ep4: Tyrion in Wineterfell on his way back from the Wall – End – Crossroad's Inn
Ep5: The Hand's Tournament – end – Attack on Eddard and his men by Lannisters
Ep6: Wildlings attack in Winterfell – end – Jon and Aemon – Talking about Sam
Ep7: Tyrion's and Bronn's night by the fire – story about Tysha End: Viserys's death.
Ep8: the death of king Robert – end – Arya's escape
Ep9:Cersei's maniplation on Sansa – end – Cat meets Robb's army
Ep10: Tyrion meets Tywin – end – Jon and Longclaw
Ep11:Drogo wounded – end – Ned's execution
Ep12: Bran's dream about Eddard – end – Dragons born.
The rabbitQuote Reply
@the rabbit –
Until reading that breakdown, I forgot about the scene with Tyrion and Catelyn at Crossroad's Inn. That has the potential to be a really good scene on screen. Tons of tension and suspense, all in an inn full of fighters.. plus, when she jumps up and announces to everyone that she thinks Tyrion attempted to kill Bran, that would be a huge cliffhanger.
ChrisQuote Reply
@Chris
I tried to make a litlle different approach from the rest, and as you see I did not change GRRM's story line.
I think it is far away to be perfect, because, there is a lot of contains where some things have to be added for example Dany's story arc in episode 2.
I am also concerned about my episode 3 – there are two many new characters appearing all at once – LF, Varys, Renly, Pycelle, Nightwatchers..etc. And they are all pretty importnat.
Maybe the audience will go crazy abou all this new names..in fact, it is even pretty hard to read that part of the book, without turning pages back, and constatly asking yourself: Oh, hell who is this chap ? I know someone mentioned his name earlier lol
The rabbitQuote Reply
Hi, all. Thanks for all the kind words! I had fun doing it, and I’m glad you guys had fun reading it. Maybe we can have a betting pool later on how close I come to what the producers actually do… ;-)
@Legion:
Agree re: Ser Rodrik shaving; that wasn’t mentioned in the summary I was working from, and I don’t have the book itself handy because I loaned it to my niece. I don’t really see the lesbian scenes as random; I think their important to Dany’s character development, because her dawning awareness that it was wrong for her to use Doreah and, later, Irri the way she did feeds into her rage at the cruelty of the slavers. You’re probably right about the order of events in Episode 5; both of Tyrion’s scenes could be moved later, so the order looks like this:
27Na. Ned is puzzled – the book and Littlefinger’s leads aren’t helping any, but why has Stannis gone off to Dragonstone?
31Ta. Tyrion protests his innocence; clans threaten; Tyrion and his men are rearmed.
29Sa. Day one of the tourney; Ser Hugh snuffs it.
27Nb. Ned and Jory meet Gendry.
29Sb. Sansa dines with the royal family, and learns more than she ever wanted to know about the brothers Clegane.
30Na. Ned talks Robert out of fighting in the melee, listens to his complaints about Cersei and Joffrey.
31Tb. Tyrion and Catelyn are embroiled in a deadly serious melee of their own; T saves C’s life.
26Jb. Jon talks with Sam about the former’s dreams and the latter’s miserable home life.
30Nb. End of the tournament, Loras, Gregor, and Sandor each display their personalities.
23Df. Revelation that Dany is pregnant.
30Nc. Ned talks with Varys.
31Tc. Aftermath of the fight. Tyrion never bets against his brother.
The tricky thing about that section of the book is that there’s an awful lot of Ned and not so much of anyone else; that might be a good place for extra scenes with Arya and/or Jon (perhaps juxtaposed scenes early in the episode, before the tourney starts, of the two of them training, learning two very different kinds of swordsmanship from two very different teachers).
Yes, Cersei does get slapped in Chapter 39(N). That might be a good breaking point for that one, actually – Robert smacks her and she storms out, cut to Vaes Dothrak or the Wall (the order in which 46Da and 41Jb take place isn’t important), then back to Ned and Robert for the rest of the conversation. I don’t know if they’ll want to break up chapters that are one continuous scene in the book, though.
I’m pretty sure Robert did die “off-camera” in the novel, actually; I think Ned was a little too busy at the time to be keeping a deathwatch at his bedside after they’d had their last conversation and Robert slipped into unconsiousness. Agree that the crown of gold is epic, but it doesn’t really set anything up; if I were going to change the order at all, I’d make Ghost finding the hand the last scene, Ned’s arrest and Arya’s escape (and first kill) just before that, and keep the crowning of Viserys before those scenes. The crowning is a climax; the other two scenes leave the audience saying, “Oh my God, what happens next?”
Episode 9 could end with Robb’s war council, or the Jon or Dany scenes could be pushed back in the sequence, so that it ends with the wight fight or Drogo swearing to put Dany on the Iron Throne. Totally agree with what you said about the battles and victories in Episode 10 – it looks like the climax of the season, but then there are two more episodes. Another “OMG, what happens now?” moment.
(TBC – once again, I've written more than the character limit will let me post in a single comment.)
entomologistQuote Reply
@Legion (continued)
The thing about killing Ned at the end of episode 11 is that there’s quite a lot that happens after that, not all of which I’d want to shoehorn into episode 12. However, on consideration I might do it a little bit differently:
64Da. Drogo falls.
65Aa. Arya in flea bottom, then following crowd to Great Sept.
63Cb. Riverrun celebrates.
62Tb. Tywin learns of Robb’s division of force.
65Ab. Ned’s execution.
64Db. Preparing the spell, bloodriders slain.
66Ba. Bran dreams, Rickon in crypt with Shaggydog. (Leave Maester Luwin talking about the Children of the Forest for 66Bb, in episode 12.)
60Jb. Jon talks to Maester Aemon about divided loyalties.
64Dc. Dany carried into tent.
This way, we get no confirmation of Ned’s death until the next episode, even though there are four substantial scenes after it. Whether they’ll do this depends on whether Dave and Dave are as monstrous and inhumanly cruel as George….
@Jillian
I agree that they’ll probably want to give Robb a bit more screen time in episodes 3-6; I didn’t want to spend much time speculating on what material not in the book would be added and where, but I think it’s clear that more material will be added. If they do it like the did in the pilot script – adding material that’s consistent with what was already there, and not deleting anything significant – then I’ll be very happy with it.
@Paul
I don’t think Dany intended or expected to die, though it surely looked that way to Jorah and the Dothraki. I think she was intensely, unreasonably confident that what would happen was what, in fact, did happen. IIRC, she thinks about her previous attempt to hatch the eggs, how the brazier wasn’t nearly hot enough, and how she’s since learned something about the nature of magic and sacrifice from Mirri Maz Duur. She went into that fire to hatch the dragons or die trying, but dying certainly wasn’t Plan A.
@Demokritos:
One problem with the way I’ve arranged the battles in Episode 10 is that I don’t think they were actually simultaneous in the book; now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure that while the Green Fork was fought in daylight, the Whispering Woods and the Battle of the Camps took place at night. It can still work, dramatically: we show the hard-fought Lannister victory over Roose Bolton’s footmen on the Green Fork, and then, just when things are looking bad for House Stark, we switch to Riverrun for the near-total destruction of Jaime Lannister’s army.
@Meg, Marko, & invertebrae: good point; we should have at least a brief clip of Arya getting clipped in episode 12. Since on screen we’ll know for certain it’s Yoren that’s dragging her away from the steps, and it’s not really plausible that a loyal brother of the Night’s Watch would murder a daughter of House Stark, I don’t think there’s much point in trying to create doubt as to what he means to do with that knife, the way Martin did at the end of the book.
@invertebrae: if we don’t go back to King’s Landing at all after Ned’s death, that means leaving the scene with Sansa and the heads on the wall to season two. They could do that – I think it would be the easiest scene from AGoT to defer – but considering that they apparently used that scene for Sophie’s callback audition, and that it was was crucial in clinching her casting, I kind of doubt they will – D,D,&G apparently think it’s a pretty important scene.
Regarding Arya, we’ll just have to hope Maisie turns out to be as gifted an actress as Natalie Portman circa Leon/The Professional and Beautiful Girls. Tall order, I know, but that’s the kind of talent needed for Arya.
entomologistQuote Reply
@entmologist
I agree with you concerning Arya, and thank you for bringing the memory of Leon in to my mind.
Natalie Portman was Arya in that movie.
The rabbitQuote Reply
I just realized there are actually 12 POV characters in AFfC, not 7 as I wrote above.
1. Aeron Greyjoy (The Prophet, The Drowned Man)
2. Areo Hotah (The Captain of Guards)
3. Cersei
4. Brienne Tarth
5. Samwell Tarly
6. Arya Stark (Cat of the Canals)
7. Jaime Lannister
8. Sansa Stark (Alayne)
9. Asha Greyjoy (The Kraken's Daughter)
10. Arys Oakheart (The Soiled Knight)
11. Victarion Greyjoy (The Iron Captain, The Reaver)
12. Arianne Martell (The Queenmaker, The Princess in the Tower)
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
*SPOILER*
And of course there's Pate, who dies in the prologue, and is replaced by The Alchemist pretending to be him at the end, when he meets Samwell in Oldtown.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
*SPOILER*
And the Alchemist, if you read his description carefully, is the man Jaqen H'ghar became after he changed his face at Harrenhal — which is how he was able to take on Pate's appearance. It remains to be seen why a Faceless Man needs to infiltrate the Citadel. And he's not the only one doing so, either; spell Alleras the Sphinx's name backward, and recall what the various Dornish characters had to say about the fourth Sand Snake….
entomologistQuote Reply
@ento
radical. did not even catch any of that when i read it. makes things much more interwoven and tricky. i love it.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Yeah, there's a lot going on at the Citadel — and now that we finally have a major viewpoint character in place there, we can expect to learn a lot more about it, although probably not until The Winds of Winter. I'd be surprised if Sam is a POV in Dance, except for maybe one or two chapters near the end, because most of it will take place in the North and Meereen, concurrently with Sam's journey in Feast.
As long as we're speculating on the content of Dance, I expect Osha and Rickon will show up in Davos' chapters, since both they and he were making for White Harbor. I don't buy for a minute that Lord Manderly really had Davos executed — I think everyone is telling Cersei what she wants to hear about events beyond the Red Keep, while doing whatever they feel is in their best interests, and I don't see how Wyman Manderly could consider it in his interest to gratuitously piss off Stannis Baratheon.
entomologistQuote Reply
@Entomologist
My guess is that all the POVs in ADwD are the 10 we already know about. The only book with more is AFfC, which in a sense only has 8, if you consolidate the Dorne and Iron Islands stories. Really hoping for a one-off Brienne chapter at the end (Maybe as a Winds of Winter preview, if nothing else.), but I doubt there's anyone with more than that who we haven't heard about yet. So, yeah, probably no Sam, especially since he didn't really have a cliffhanger ("Pate" is a danger, but not immediate.)
Nice point on Osha and Bran. I had completely forgotten they were headed anywhere, just remembered they were somewhere in the North. I got the same feeling about the Manderlys. Wonder where it will lead… Seems likely that Osha will try and keep a low profile, so maybe nowhere, but how many little boys have big black wolves?
DemokritosQuote Reply
There is still a toss up of who number 10 ADwD's POV could be.
Originally the choices were
- Loras
- Sandor
- Meslisandre
GRRM ruled out Sandor, and hinted it is likely Melisandre, but I'm personally holding out for Loras just because I'd like to see what was going on with him and Renley and GRRM's take on writing a gay character.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
GRRM later on said that the Tyrells do not appear in ADWD at all, which I believe lowers us down to one possibility.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
How come we get a POV from her POV, which, frankly, I can't really see as needed (and would rather have had one from Stannis' POV) and never ever got one from Robb's POV.
That has always been one of my very few criticisms of the story. Robb gets nothing despite how important he is, yet no development Arya gets crap loads.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@Adam
One of the new POV character is Doran Martell's son Quentyn, right? What is the current list of 10 POV's so far? I didn't get that memo.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
What wiki has to say about ADwD POV chaacters:
The tale is told through the eyes of at least 10 point-of-view characters and, as with previous volumes, a one-off prologue point-of-view.
Prologue: Varamyr Sixskins, a skinchanger and one of the surviving wildlings north of the Wall.
Jon Snow, the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.
Tyrion Lannister, a fugitive wanted for kinslaying and regicide, lately fled from the Seven Kingdoms.
Lord Davos Seaworth, King's Hand to Stannis Baratheon.
Daenerys Targaryen, sole heir to the Targaryen dynasty who ruled Westeros for 300 years until their deposition 15 years prior to the first novel. Called "Stormborn", "the Unburnt", "the Breaker of Shackles", "the Mother of Dragons", and self-proclaimed Queen of Westeros, now ruling the city of Meereen.
Bran Stark, rightful heir to the late Robb Stark, hiding while seeking an old power beyond the Wall, believed dead by his own family.
Arya Stark, hiding in the Free City of Braavos, where she is also called "Cat of the Canals" and continuing her training by the House of Black and White (The Faceless Men). Meanwhile back in Westeros, an imposter Arya Stark has been betrothed to Ramsay Bolton.
Quentyn Martell, the eldest son of Prince Doran Martell of Dorne, travelling into the east on a mission for his father.
The Kraken's Daughter: Asha Greyjoy, the niece of King Euron Greyjoy of the Iron Islands, lately fled from the isles.
Reek: Theon Greyjoy, now imprisoned, tortured and barely sane.
In a progress update on his website, dated January 1, 2008, Martin said he would add an additional point-of-view, which would be a character featured in the first series of Dark Sword Miniatures who had never been a point-of-view before. The three characters that meet these criteria are Sandor Clegane, Melisandre of Asshai, and Loras Tyrell. Martin later ruled out Sandor.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@legion
I always thought that the "leaders" didn't get their own POV's, because it's better as the Watson to Sherlock motif, a close POV character but not the main char themselves. It strengthens the author's ability to talk about the character without it feeling trite.
Ned was really the only exception so far, but probably we should have seen that as a red herring!
Robb has Catelyn
Joff has Cersei
Stannis has Davos
Balon has Theon/Asha
Doran has Arianne
Renly has Catelyn/Ned
Tywin has Tyrion/Cersei
Robert has Ned
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
thanks @legion for that info, shoulda known wiki would have the details. so is that why people are thinking that melisandre will be the added POV? i suppose that will take us from the wall and onto stannis's journey to fulfill the prophecy melisandre believes him to be a part of?
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
@Ryan
I get what you are saying, with Tywin and Robert, I agree, similarly, Stannis comes across well enough in his associate POVs.
Robb on the other hand, not so much. He goes off and marris Jayne and that is obviously dodgy fron the first time you meet her mother, but you never get the sense it's going anywhere becaus he isn't important.
The Red Wedding for exaple could have been ever more harrowing with a Robb POV, for me, with a Catelyn POV only and the odd outside moments from Arya, didnt go down as massively as it could have.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@Legion
I feel the same way about Robb. Another thing is that Robb is out in the fight with his troops: his story is not nearly as dominated by intrigue, meetings with officials, etc., and having his story told from the POV of someone who doesn't actually witness most of the pivotal moments because she's not a fighter always struck me as odd. My guess is George just felt like he needed to keep a decent mother around as a POV to counteract Cersei and Lysa. Or there could be an outside chance of something Robb encountered that we can't find out until later.
@Invertebrae
That is a good point, though I think Cersei is actually one of the few people in power who we actually get POVs from. Joffrey sometimes does things against his mother's wishes, but the overall ruling of the kingdom is never really in his hands, only in Tyrion's, Cersei's, and of course Tywin's above theirs.
DemokritosQuote Reply
If the rumor is true I am dreading the Melisandre point of view. Also, I think she will translate terrible on television. She IS the "mysterious seductive sorceress" fantasy cliche. The only good thing is potential eye candy. Unless someone can convince me otherwise (like say, Martin himself…)
MegQuote Reply
@DEMOKRITOS
actually, as it turns out, cersei is not a woman of as much power as one may have thought, but she is indeed the most conniving of the lot. i think we all know/knew that the lannister reign was doomed from the beginning. it just so happens GRRM took some of the protagonists down with their ship along the way, and of course he would choose to use the ones we got to know the best as the victims.
@LEGION
see, i don't see it the same way. the whispering wood, and the KING IN THE NORTH storylines feel more powerful by seeing it through those surrounding robb. and using catelyn as his proxy makes his decision making more difficult to attain, which i think is what GRRM was going for: a young man thrust into a position of power, but he's really just a boy. the jeyne debacle and subsequent red wedding show the cost of being a boy in the position of a king. same goes for joff.
ASoIaF to me is, in large part, about giving power to those who do not deserve it, and giving power to those who do not know what to do with it. we see it time and again throughout the story, and robb is the penultimate example of this.
with his father slain, he was immediately elevated as heir to winterfell, and all of the north. but his father was a traitor in the eyes of the new king, making robb an immediate enemy to the kingdom. he had no choice but to become a puppet in his own reign. it just so happened he had some great strategists around him, and good instincts on the battlefield. this did not mean he was mature in every way necessary to rule.
what some may perceive as GRRM copping out and becoming apathetic toward robb since he was doomed from the start, i simply counter that this is part of his point in this whole story. the good guys seldom win. and the bad guys usually end up dead too. the ones down the middle seem to last the longest in this tale of warring kingdoms. at least, to me anyhow.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
@Paul
Just to clarify something. You quoted where I said "On TV–and especially on HBO–you can't do that…" and replied with;
Not only can HBO do it, they did. You've used the "it's TV not a book" argument yourself, so hopefully you can appreciate what we were trying to address.
I didn't mean that HBO couldn't kill a character in the middle of an epsiode. I meant that when you are reading the book, and you read Ned's deaht scene, you can put the book down and walk away for a minute, or flip back and reread to see if it really happened, or give yourself any kind of pause or break you want, to come to terms with the event. When you are watching it on TV, you can't do that. Sure, if you are watching it on DVD, or have Tivo or some other DVR you can pause it…but one shouldn't assume everyone–or even most people–will have that option. So, when Ned's death happens, their options are to keep watching whether they have processed the death and can absorb what is going on next or not…or turn the show off and not watch the rest of the episode. Not a good set of options. Build in processing time for the audience. Ned's death should not get lost in the shuffle, nor should the things that follow his death get lost in the adjusting to his death.
@entomologist:
"The difference isn't how the audience feels about the character, but what the character means to their respective world.
Which is exactly why it can't be the last scene of the last episode of the season — we need those chapters that show the ripple effects of Ned's death on his family and his enemies."
But it's also exactly why his death should happen at the beginning or middle of an episode. That doesn't just make the death unexpected…it makes it seems senseless and meaningless. And it's very much *not* meaningless. It's meaning to the story is huge. It's not just a terrible, random thing that happens (which is what it sounds like Omar's death was…remember, I haven;t seen it.) It is the even that sets in motion so much of what follows. Ned's not the "hero" of the story he appears to be at first, true. But his death *is* a major event…a climax. His death had to happen, for the rest of the story to unfold as it does. It's a flashpoint. Don't let it get lost in the shuffle by putting it at the beginning or middle of an epsiode, and then just moving on to other stuff. let it reverberate for the audience, just as its aftereffects reverberate across the Seven Kingdoms, is all I am saying. The end of the 10th or 11th episode, I really think, is the right place for it, to serve the role in the story it was meant to serve. Not just the effect–sudden, unexpected, and nobody is safe–but the *role*…the murder of a very important, powerful, and beloved man, which helps lead to the shattering of a kingdom.
Again, just my two Winterfell pennies. =)
Best,
~~~~Random
random221bQuote Reply
Blast…didn't proofread well enough. Or, at all apparently. Forgive my typos…I am ashamed of myself. LOL
One very important typo to correct, though…
"But it's also exactly why his death *shouldn't* happen at the beginning or middle of an episode."
Oops.
Best,
~~~~Random
random221bQuote Reply
The idea of Melisandre as a POV character is interesting; thus far, she's mysterious almost before she's anything else, and it could be very enlightening to get an internal view of a character who works magic and knows more about the prophecy of Azor Ahai than anybody else (although I'm pretty sure she doesn't know enough not to misinterpret it, as Stannis is almost certainly not Azor Ahai reborn).
@random221b:
I disagree. For me, having Ned's death early in the episode — maybe even before the scenes at Riverrun and the Lannister camp on the Green Fork, now I think about it — casts a pall of impending doom over all the other scenes involving Catelyn and Robb, Bran and Rickon and Maester Luwin, Jon and Maester Aemon, and even Tyrion and Tywin Lannister where Ned's already dead but the news hasn't reached them yet. That's especially true if the Lannisters have some added, cautiously optimistic dialogue about the probability, following their victory on the Green Fork, that they'll be able to exchange Lord Eddard for peace with the North, while Robb and Catelyn have a similarly optimistic talk about the near certainty that the Lannisters will release Ned in exchange for the Kingslayer. It doesn't make it senseless and meaningless at all; quite the contrary, it reinforces the horror of it: "Oh my God, they're all so happy now, because they don't know!" And then you wait a week for the other show to drop, and also for the resolution of the Dany/resurrection spell bit… I think you're going to see a sudden surge in sales of the book between episodes 11 and 12 to fans of the show who can't stand waiting to find out what happens next.
entomologistQuote Reply
@entomologist:
What I have been getting at is, folks have been using the effectiveness of Omar's death in The Wire as an example of how a sudden, non-climactic death of a major, beloved character early in an episode can work, and why it could work for Ned, but they are failing to consider that (from my understanding–I haven't seen it) the effect of Omar's death being handled that way was to make it some terrible random event that just happens out of nowhere and then gets lost in the shuffle of everything that follows. It makes it more jarring, and upsetting, and brings home the unpleasant gritty realities of the situation, sure…but that's not the point of Ned's death. Or at least, it's not the main point. Yes, Ned's death is intended to show the audience that no one is safe…that this isn't the same old fantasy. But story-wise it serves a much bigger purpose. It is the impetus for many terrible events that follow. It needs to be given the weight of that. It should neither be lost in the shuffle of what comes after it, nor should it *over*shadow those things due to people having no time to process and cope with it. Let the event happen–it's going to shock the audience whether it's at the beginning of an episode, the middle, or the end. Unless spoilers leak, nobody is going to expect a "lead" character–one who, in fact, appears to be *the* lead–played by a big name to be suddenly and unexpectedly beheaded. The shock will be there no matter when it happens. Doing it early in an episode won't make it any more shocking. So do it, let the audience deal with it and take it in, and *then* show them what happens next. Ned's death is a *big deal* in the books. It really is. Let it be that big deal, and don't make it compete for attention with other things–or make those other things compete for attention with it–by making those other events in the story follow immediately on its heels.
I suspect that it's unlikely either side will convince the other on this matter, so I guess I don't really have any more to say on the matter. I believe it was…I want to say Meg?…that hit on what I was trying to get across before, but couldn't put into words…the difference between Omar's death and Ned's is in what role they serve in the story. That's why what worked so well for one, I feel, would not work as well for the other.
Best,
~~~~Random
random221bQuote Reply
You misrepresent my opinion random, but don't worry, you're not the first. I used Omar (andI think I bought it up 1st) as an example of something unexpected but also slightly trivialised and more poignent because of its context than the act itself. They are obviously not comparable as events within the plot, but outside in the type of thing they are trying to do to the audience and how they view the saga.
Ned's death is obviously totally different in lots of ways, but there is a similarity in technique they should, imo, used.
SPOILERS
I'm not sure how to make it clearer, but I'll try.
- Ned's death is unexpected. A couple of people might say they predicted it but for the most part people expected him to get out of it somehow.
- Omar's death is unexpected.
Within the plot there are very few similarities. Outside the plot though, the writers of both events change your perceptions of the characters due to there contexts.
- Ned is a prominent character and the context of his demise stomps all over your expectations. One does not necessarilly believe that he will survive the length of the series, but somewhere towards the end – a poignent moment when he passes the torch to Robb or Jon – would be expected, if cliched.
- Omar is a prominent character and the context of his demise stomps all over your expectations. One does not necessarilly believe that he will survive until the end of the series, but you don't expect it the way it happens – a poignent moment when he saves McNulty's life, or one of the kids maybe, in pursuit of Marlow and dies in the process, or some other shit cliche like that.
In the end, neither death is heroic. Ned dies at the whim of a child, and so does Omar. You are right to say that Ned's decapitation is consequential to the plot, where as Omar is just a statistic in the end. But by putting Omar's death 15mins into an episode with no consequences the writers are saying something even more important and interesting about Omar and his place in the world. The same would be done if Ned was killed 15mins into an episode. In the book, after the initial shock of he act in front of Baelor sept, you are forced to get over it quickly, which tells you that Ned is not so important after all. He is just another chracter, who, through subsequent POVs is shown not to be so clean and honourable as was thought, and the Starks are not necessarilly the good guys. (OT, I think Rickon will come back with some patronage to ry to claim the North in his early teens – and he'll be a little c&%t).
So as clear as I can be, because I've tried to say it numerous times, Ned's death is not such an important moment from a subjective perspective, which is why it didn't happen in Ned's POV. His death is important for reasons of plot development, and he himself is almost inconsequential (like Omar), despite the feelings of paternity he brings out in his readers. So it isn't an event that brakes the dam which is why it should have a short sharp build-up, swing straight into the after effects for greatest impact.
MozartQuote Reply
The Robb/Catelyn choice of POV, in my opinion, is down to GRRM wanting to do something different.
Robb is a great character, but to be honest, he's not really all that different from Ned and Jon. He's a boy hero, he's trying to run a kingdom, he's making mistakes. I think, to be honest, he's far more interesting from the outside than he would have been if we saw inside his head. He'd just be yet another teenage boy to add to the mix.
Catelyn, on the other hand, is highly unusual as a character in a fantasy novel. She George's attempt, I think, to show the ~cost~ of the war, rather than another fighter-type who will glorify it to a certain extent. And that's why we don't see so much of the actual battles and so on from the Stark side. George wants us to realise what it's like for those people who aren't out on the battlefield, winning glory, being badass and cool, getting lauded for their awesomeness. He wants us to realise what it's like for those left behind, for those for whom the war can only lead to bad things, for those who would really rather things had never happened. And that's what Catelyn brings us.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Great post.
clash of clans 2013Quote Reply