The filming in Northern Ireland is winding down. We’re getting multiple reports now that they will be starting filming in Morocco on Thursday. The last few days of filming seem to have occurred within the Paint Hall.
We also got some more info from Rimshot about his time on set last week. Here is what he had to say:
Hi guys
Just thought I’d throw my tuppence into the current discussions.
While I was having lunch on set (swedish meatballs btw! Very nice!!) I was sitting on a wall, watching a few crew members working on this cart. They were cutting up a roll of bright green material and attaching it to the edges of the window in the side of the cart. I remember thinking “I wonder what that’s for” but I was soon brought back on set. I wish I had asked someone as I didn’t realise it would cause such debate on here. It is a small gypsy style cart so it can’t imagine it will be used for the ‘wheelhouse’.
A few more titbits from Wednesday.
There was a separate, documentary crew on set all day. They were always there, trying to get interviews with the cast. I saw them asking Rory who politely asked if they could wait until after his scene. I saw them interview Richard using the courtyard as a backdrop ( of course I just happened to wander past as they were filming!). They kept popping up filming everywhere. So there is definitely some behind the scenes footage being prepared (probably for an EPK).
I have a lovely picture in my mind of Joffrey. Just as we were leaving the set, we were in the minibus. It was raining and Joffrey was standing just inside the castle gate alone in full costume, holding an umbrella, and lost in thought. It was a lovely image.
There was another moment when the 1st AD had to tell a guard extra not to use his staff as a walking stick but to hold it straight in front of him.
The director had a bit of trouble getting Isaac to fall on the correct spot.
If I think of anything more I’ll be back.
BTW – Really enjoying the book so far.
Hope all you guys are well.
Rimshot later adds, to clarify his comment about Isaac Hempstead-Wright (Bran) falling:
Actually, I got that slightly wrong. It was the other kid who fell but the director was having a bit of trouble getting Issac to whack the kid and for the kid to fall on the correct spot.
And lastly, as to the set photos you have all heard about, I was going back and forth on whether to post them and decided to do so. Mostly because I’ve billed this site as the place to come for any and all Thrones news, so my readers have come to expect it. But also because I haven’t heard anything directly from HBO about taking down anything that I’ve posted. If HBO wishes me to remain more discreet about posting these types of things, I have no problem doing so. I’m not trying to hinder production in any way. I have had contact with HBO in the past and they haven’t expressed any displeasure with the content of this site. So until they do, I will continue to post the juicy info. :)
So without further ado, here are the Castle Ward set photos.
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197 Comments
First
shadallionQuote Reply
Great photos! Hope you don't get in trouble!
hayrickmanQuote Reply
Just to continue this blessed wheelhouse conversation, here is how D&D described this scene to us in the script:
First, we see an envoy from afar:
"From the stronghold’s gates, the King’s Road wends its way to the horizon — where tiny specks of red and gold appear, barely visible. Very slowly, they grow larger.
The king’s party approaches."
Then, we see Cersei emerge with Tommen and Myrcella:
"As the king’s party dismounts, an ornate wheelhouse pulls into their midst. QUEEN CERSEI LANNISTER (32) emerges with her younger children, TOMMEN (7) and MYRCELLA (8).
Ned kneels to kiss her ring; her smile is pure formality."
"Ornate wheelhouse" is all they use to describe the coach. That's why my mind goes more toward something like THIS, only with more interior space.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
i cant see this cart working as "house on wheels"… CGI magic or not, it just look way too tiny. hum. Unless it will be used ONLY as doors, and rest of it will be CGIed :)
petrQuote Reply
I want to see pictures of the main actors in full regalia: I really don't understand why HBO is so secretive about it. We're all going to watch the show, that's a forgone conclusion. What harm in seeing what the Hound looks like?
shadallionQuote Reply
Is it time to change the "current date and time" to Morocco?
hayrickmanQuote Reply
seeing the wagon in question here, i'm not sure what the digital extensions would do to change the footprint of it. the wheels are a bit oregon trail looking, and unless they are completely replacing everything, it seems a strange thing to dress up like this.
time will tell, oh yes oh yes.
furthermore, am i the only one thinks that the stone relief above the doorway at castle ward does NOT represent the direwolf/stark insignia? it seems to be a pre-existing element. no? maybe i am mistaken, but i think kinny said he had images of the direwolf banner.
hmmpf.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
It is pre-existing element, I am pretty sure.
And it looks more like a fox…direfox!
The rabbitQuote Reply
WiC, I don't think you are going to get any guff from HBO about showing pictures that come from an open set. These are open to the public and nobody can stop other visitors from taking pictures and posting them, that's just one thing they are going to have to deal with. Legally, they could maybe actually have a problem if they start trying to intimidate or stop people from showing images from sets built in a public place.
Now, if you start posting pictures of sets inside Paint Hall, or some other closed set that they have put off limits then I think there might be a problem there.
BrudeQuote Reply
My two cents about the Blessed Wheelhouse debate: First, it should be cited in the next article about all the BUZZ surrounding GoT. Second, It's Cersei, she and her children have spent weeks{?} in it: It will be BIG.
hayrickmanQuote Reply
Ryan, I'm pretty sure that is the insignia and part of the set. Looks like an olde fashioned depiction of a wolf to me, and the tree emblam above it is probably meant to represent the Heart Tree in the Godswood.
Everyone who has reported on that piece has said it's part of one of the added set walls, not the original castle constructions.
BrudeQuote Reply
@WiC,
I forgot to tell you, I agree with every word you have written above about HBO and the sneaks.
I mean, this is a fan blog, and we are creating the buzz constantly, helping them in some way.
If they let some guy to take photos of the fake direwolf.(I still wonder about it, how that was possible at all), I do not see how they gonna be pissed off of that blog.
In fact, you are not the one with the camera, just a passionate fan.
The rabbitQuote Reply
It could be it, Brude, a fake wall, I completely forgot what GRRM (or was it Rimshot?) said about not knowing where the real castle ends, and the fake begins.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Looking at the Wheelhouse picture WiC posted, it's pretty clear they are using a small wagon as something for the actors to interact with and climb out of, but they will be able to do whatever they want with the design of it from there. The whole thing is covered in green.
BrudeQuote Reply
It looks like there's puppy dog in that relief but there's also tree above the animal and two roses (winter roses?).
The cart was smaller than I thought. Maybe it's just background prop, not Cersei's wheelhouse.
MauberlyQuote Reply
That just looks like any old wagon covered in green screen. I'm wondering if any of the actual wagon will make it to screen(the wheels, front). Maybe they are just using it for motion capture, to make a rendering with accurate bumps and motion from the road.
And that seems likely to be what we heard GRRM was taking a picture of, the emblem. I was wondering what's up with the roses on the sides and the tree on top, but as Brude said, it may represent the Heart Tree. Or it may be left over from YH, who knows.
ChrisQuote Reply
@Brude
Interesting. Seems nothing like a wolf to me, and the tree doesn't look anything like a heart tree either. I'm not getting the "grey direwolf on a white field" vibe from that set piece whatsoever.
However, if that is truly a set piece, kudos on a job well done. looks medieval to me!!
Interesting………
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Can anyone see what is above (the-animal-everyone-sees-as-a-wolf-but-not-me) and under the tree?
It is something (three pieces of something) but it is not clear enough?
The rabbitQuote Reply
Are those roses on the sides of the wolf? I couldn't make them out. It would make sense if they are winter roses – a good way to start sneaking that element into the story early – almost subliminally, really.
By the way, that is definitely a wolf device carved into the stone – you can tell by the way the tail curls up. Yes, many dogs do that too, but it's particularly indicative of a wolf.
Google "wolf, heraldry" and you'll find many wolf devices that resemble that bas-relief.
BrudeQuote Reply
The head is strange, I can not see wolfish pointed ears, the tail and the body look like a wolf (or dog).
The rabbitQuote Reply
I think, we need Rimshot to explain.
The rabbitQuote Reply
BTW, Independent Theatre Workshop's latest newsletter has an interesting article (scroll down) about Jack Gleeson, our darling Joffrey. A little bit of background info.
MauberlyQuote Reply
to me, the triptych seems to have some cat/bird/fox like animal in the middle, with three trees behind it in the distance. on the left and right panels, my eye sees two more trees, wind-blown, as part of this landscape. then the pediment (or whatever it's called) above the triptych has a wizened old tree, like a family tree.
just doesn't say stark to me whatsoever.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
The head is strange, I can not see wolfish pointed ears, the tail and the body look like a wolf (or dog).
When a wolf or a dog is attacking, it's ears go down. This is meant to be a fierce, attacking wolf so the ears would be pressed against he's head. It also has a very deep chest and a narrow waist, again that just screams wolf. A fox has a long, thin body, more like a cat.
Zooming in on the pictures after I downloaded them, the things on each side of the wolf seem to look more like trees than flowers, but I can't be 100% certain.
BrudeQuote Reply
Looks like the WheelHouse is much more gypsy cart than I ever imagined it. Granted they could green screen it much bigger, but still, that style just doesnt scream Cersei Lannister lived inside this thing for a month or so.
I'll get over it.
The wolf looks cool, carved in stone and sat up there.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
maybe thistles?
wabawangaQuote Reply
The pic is to small, I can really see it clearely.
It could be attacking wolg (had a german sheppard – and all you have said about ears is true).
But, the head, it is still bird-like to me.
The rabbitQuote Reply
I have downloaded it, and zoomed in.
It seems to me, that the "eye" which I thought first is actually an ear.
And the animal has a open month.
The rabbitQuote Reply
After zooming in I don't see it's wolf, really. Animal's head is round and it's sort of blunt-nosed. If you compare it to the fake wolf, they look nothing alike. Ears are round too.
MauberlyQuote Reply
Bah, WiC shows us set pictures and all we can say is "that wolf looks funny"?
That WALL looks AWESOME. Even some posters here were fooled. The CART is covered in green. That means the only things you'll see of it are the NON green things. Everything else will be graphics, which can be expanded, transmogrified, gussied up, and glittered, so QUICHERBITCHIN about the wheelhouse. It's gonna look fine. Go watch the John Addams SFX bit again. Twice.
The wolf looks like wolf heraldry. It's obviously not a lion, or stag, or a dragon. Jeebus. I'm listing this wolf thing under "just can't please some people".
Critical GeekQuote Reply
Not sure what you guys are looking at, but definitely looks like a wolf(canine at the very least) to me.
ChrisQuote Reply
Just to open discussion and not remotely to be snarky, but if it isn't a Stark Wolf, what are people thinking it might be?
The closest would be what…..the Florent Fox? And I couldn't even tell you their seat or why'd they'd be in wherever that place is! Lol.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
i'm fairly certain its a wolf, with two long-stemmed flowers on either side (roses) with a large tree above. this is supposed to be medieval, so its going to look stylized and not 100% realistic. seems pretty stark-ish to me!!
nikkiQuote Reply
In Photo 7 we see that pretty much the entire cart is masked out.
I think it is the wheelhouse, they'll be filming it from the right side, and the cart elements are going to be completely replaced.
From the size of the wheels and the base, my guess is that it can still look "too big" without being crazy. They've masked it enough that it could look like small house too big for its base which would be ideal for me.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
All right, I could not see it properly, before the download.
I looked closer to it, and it has shape of a wolf, even the the head, with the pointy ear, and the open jaw, and long nose.
Do not take me serious please, I am famous for not recognizing the animals.
The rabbitQuote Reply
I think it looks like a wolf and a tree, with two roses on either side. I'd say that's a Stark emblem.
Looks good to me, too.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
the wolf and buggy debate isn't about me being disappointed.
i complimented that wall already, shit looks damn real.
i am just starting to wonder if there might be some your highness crossover, since i can't really connect that engraving to anything very "stark" like is all. there is no snow, the wolf doesn't look wolf like. there are some flowers or strange trees, and the tree on the top doesn't really look like a heart tree to me.
just observing, trying to puzzle stuff out.
the set itself looks awesome, and the buggy debate i stand by a really cool, ornate, opulent looking coach. big enough for cersei, but not legion's seige tower (jk jk jk!!). but you know what i mean.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Chill out. Of course, it's wolf if it's Winterfell set. But it doesn't look like this direwolf. Not dissapointed tho, the atmosphere in Castle Ward area seems to be just right.
MauberlyQuote Reply
Flowers could be blue roses :P
Ryan, I get what you mean with an opulant Coach, the issue I have with that is that I cant imagine someone living for several weeks in a an oppulant coach.
Which leaves us with it being more Romaney/Go West American type wagon, and that, at any size, doesnt say Cersei to me (as I say, because of what I see of Cersei in my head, which may be utterly different to others).
Either way, I love that we have things to debate and discuss, makes the day go faster!
legion_quest666Quote Reply
I like the yard, and I can see it as Winetrfell yard.
And why, Ryan, do you think there must be snow inside the Winterfell.
I thought it was built on some terrain full of "hot-water" inside.
The rabbitQuote Reply
The wolf is perfect, I'm really surprised that they didn't chisel it away so that only few people can recognize it as a wolf, any carving in an old castle would have disappeared a long time ago.
ebleyesQuote Reply
I really love that we've been debating about a wagon for 2 days.
I think this set looks pretty great. The emblem, is kind of amazing, whether for 'your highness' or for winterfell, it's a great detail. When I look at it I see wolf/tree/flower, which works for me. It's just a background detail. I doubt it'll be focussed on anywhere near as much in the show as we're focussing on it now :P
JillianQuote Reply
Going to add my vote to the idea the only part of the cart that we'll end up seeing is the door when the actors enter/exit. In long shots I bet the whole thing will be CGI. Judging from the John Addams video, my guess that will hold true for almost all the long/deep field shots. I'm really excited to see how they use the tech to bring the world to life.
subversivevibeQuote Reply
The closest would be what…..the Florent Fox? And I couldn't even tell you their seat or why'd they'd be in wherever that place is! Lol.
The seat of the Florents is Brightwater Keep, and it's never been described in any detail in the books. It's upriver from Oldtown.
The wolf looks like a heraldic wolf, just google those terms and look at a lot of other heraldic wolfs that have a lot of similar traits. It has all of the physical features of a wolf in all the right proportions, more or less. Remember, this is supposed to be the work of an artist who doesn't have the technique and training a modern or classical artist would have, so their skills in rendering the beast are a bit limited. It's a medieval, heraldic style wolf
While I'm not an expert on canines, my best friend is – he's a dog handler/trainer/search and rescue paramedic and we've talked for hours about this stuff. About dogs, about wolves about the subtle differences and changes in traits between dogs and wolves and the traits retained by various breeds that are still closer to wolves than others (huskies, shepherds, etc.). I've absorbed enough on the subject to know what I'm looking at here.
BrudeQuote Reply
Also, WiC, is there any chance you could add the Facebook API to log in for comments with?
subversivevibeQuote Reply
The Rabbit:
"I am famous for not recognizing the animals."
I couldn't resist:
The Rabbit Is Famous for Not Recognizing Animals
Paul GudeQuote Reply
ha ha ha!
Paul, excellent!
Saddly, but is very close to reality, indeed.
All right, I can see the differnece between the cow and the horse…but the rest of the animal world…a panther?? hmmm is it something similar to tiger? hmmm?
The rabbitQuote Reply
Lol! It's quite dangerous that the rabbit doesn't recognize the wolf :)
MauberlyQuote Reply
I fiddled with with it a bit. Looks like a snarling wolf to me.
LaurenQuote Reply
looks like the wolf is top of a landscape background, too, by the way.
LaurenQuote Reply
lol, I always thought the wolves are nice and gentle dogs.
The rabbitQuote Reply
@Lauren
Yeah, I saw it exactly like that, when I have zoomed it.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Thanks Lauren!
JillianQuote Reply
Lauren, great minds and all that:
The "Crest" enhanced
I didn't draw on it, but even with just adjusting the brightness/contrast you can make out the wolf a bit better.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@rabbit
didn't mean in the courtyard snow, just envisioned the direwolf insignia in all its forms to indicate wolves and snow. not roses and trees and rolling hills and cat/bird/wolf creatures.
but guess what, i don't really care. that location looks awesome, and i'm getting winterfell vibes left right and center. exciting!
…ryan
P.S. i don't really care about the wagon either, as long as i believe it would be something cersei would have her minions at king's landing fashion for her, like her fleet of ships for joffrey.
invertebraeQuote Reply
HAHA, PG! Made me laugh so hard :))) Love the comic.
Thanks for another great summarizing post with all the reports and info we have, WiC! And the photos … seems like days worth of material to discuss already :) I agree you're having a sound and fair policy, and HBO should tell you if they disagree with it.
MarkoQuote Reply
@PG:
great minds, indeed :)
LaurenQuote Reply
I agree with Brude. Covering the entire cart in green except the door means they are going to CGI all but that part. It would be difficult to CGI an actor stepping out of a door and down the step. Makes sense. How big they make it in the end is purely speculation tinged with our own ideas of what we want to see. It is entirely possible that they will merely extend the carriage upwards for a second story as in the books without making it all around huge as some of us would like. :)
I also agree with Brude about the wolf design. It is pretty much a heraldric wolf and Lauren's great spread of the pics shows it better. And the flowers to the side look like Scottish thistles to me.
I really like the tree above. I'm dying to see how they handle the design of the godswoods and the heart trees.
Once filming is done, what then? Are we going to chew our own limbs off in boredom spiced with anticipation bordering on fanatical? Will ASoIaF fans be known instantly be their stumps, or at least the bleeding remains of their fingernails? Time will tell.
mogonsQuote Reply
@Ryan
I get it, thanks.
And I can tell that I am there with you, not about the wolf, because it is wolf when you look it closely, but the rest of, it looks like more Riverrun than Winterfell.
But, I can live with it.
In fact, I would be more concentrate in that very scene on what is going on inside the yard, than to some symbol on the wall, shown for some seconds.
Good night to you all, Rabbit goes sleepin..see ya tomorrow evening.
The rabbitQuote Reply
The Knight of Redemption said on his set report:
The Director delighted in pointing out to George a small visual homage to something that happens later in the story…made me smile and I hope it stays in for the final edit.
If those side flowers (if they are flowers at all) really are blue winter roses could that be the small thing McCarthy pointed out?
MauberlyQuote Reply
Mauberly,
I thought about this, too.
Since there's little doubt in my mind that we'll see this crest somewhere in the final edit, I'm going to go with the homage being something else.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
the more i look at it, the more i 1) believe it's a wolf; and 2) really, really like it!
what excites me is the fit and finish of the wall itself, including the relief of the stark insignia. really cool!
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Lauren, I think it is stone – not left ear )))
I try to do this photo more contrast – here (or bigger but b/w). IMO it looks very similar to marten – image and heraldry image.
NarwenQuote Reply
Hibberd: Continue to hear that only if "Game of Thrones" producers royally blow this pilot will the network fail to give it a green light…. HBO realizes they have something special and are pretty stunned by the amount of online buzz this early
I think it is pretty sure we get at least one season.
MauberlyQuote Reply
I wonder if they used some of the same tricks as John Adams, and put green screen above the set and will go back in and make it look like its in the middle of a massive castle or if they just won't have the cameras filming above the set line. I can't imagine those trees are supposed to be in the background on screen as they look a little out of place.
ChrisQuote Reply
@Mauberly –
All clues are pointing that way, and in the quote you put up there, Hibberd said he was basing that off what he's heard from people "in the know" regarding HBO and not just other industry people.
Still can't believe how well everything is going with this project, at least from our angle.
ChrisQuote Reply
I've been wondering why Julia Frey have all those layered clothes and rain pants on if she's within the Paint Hall on that green screen photo? Is that hall cold? (Yeah, I have nothing else to do but think odd questions)
MauberlyQuote Reply
Loving this debate. It's what makes this blog so much fun! To me the emblem is a (dire)wolf = Starks and they pray to trees. Seems spot on to me. I also bet Julia's having a chuckle at the wagon speculation ;)
JacMac30Quote Reply
Hmm..just thinking the wagon may be what influenced Julia's Doris Day moment earlier in the week! ;)
#Just got back from the windy city…. whip crack away whip crack away! ;)
JacMac30Quote Reply
I was watching the first episode of THE WIRE for the first time with the creator's commentary, and I was rather surprised when he mentioned off-handedly that all the background shots in the low-rise area of Baltimore that show a wider view are digitally manipulated to include a lot of tower blocks which in reality had been demolished years earlier. I was surprised by that as I never even noticed they weren't really there (and still can't see the join).
Comparing that with the clips from JOHN ADAMS that have been posted before, they should be able to do some incredible stuff for scenery manipulation in GoT.
As for the other people filming, ROME had a lot of internet featurettes that went up on the website as the two seasons aired, behind-the-scenes things, interviews etc, a lot of which ended up on the DVDs as well. My guess is that they are planning something similar this time around as well.
That also makes me ponder (getting a long time down the road and a long way ahead of ourselves) that they could also get some of the cast and crew to do DVD commentaries for the episodes, maybe a GRRM commentary on the first episode? That could be cool.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
@Mauberly
I'd been wondering that too. I'd initially assumed Paint Hall but then realised it could easily be an external photo at night (or late afternoon here these days), but I'm assuming the screen was used in daylight.
Guessing and wondering is fun! :)
JacMac30Quote Reply
From what I've seen, I'm betting it's possible Julia doesn't stay in one place for too long and it's better to be suited up indoors than have to run outside without protection.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Narwen,
I like the enhancements you did.
Still, though, it looks like a wolf to me. Like JacMac30, I see a wolf and a tree. I do think those could be flowers on the side as well. The one on the right even seems to have a thorn.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
It's definitely a wolf, and they're definitely trees not flowers (you can even see the hills that they are standing on, continuing from the centre frame).
I think the problem people are having is that the wolf looks quite different from the previous Stark direwolves we've seen in various places. Still, it looks pretty cool to me, and it's definitely a wolf!
lexQuote Reply
All I know, we _definitely_ need hi-res pictures :D
MauberlyQuote Reply
Wow, haven't posted a week or so because of the lack of time. This blog keeps amazing me that when there's no 'real' news we fans get hyped up seeing a cart and a castle wall as teen girls get hyped up seeing Robert Pattinson (who?). I'm loving it.
It's cool to comment at free will and we don't have to have discussions categorized like in a forum and have on-topic warnings from moderators.
My two cents: cart won't be Cerseis, it's just way too small. Probably some dead pigs are going to be CGI'd, but that actually doesn't make much sense either. The sign looks cool. I think it's just a detail and won't get any zoom, therefore it's not a problem it may as well be a marten allthough the specific flowers and trees are contradictionary to why the wolf wouldn't be carved a bit more detailed.
The James Hibberd news gets me the most excited. Things are looking better and better. I stated before: there will never be a two season order when HBO doesn't have any ratings. That's beyond all logic tv-decision making.
KnurkQuote Reply
Talking about wolves: just saw the trailer of The Canyon on apple.com. That movie looks absolutely crap but seems to have a lot of real wolves in it that have to act together. Might be interesting to see how they managed to do that.
KnurkQuote Reply
Knurk, for most any other show I would agree, but with the cost and the sets and the need to keep the kids at a certain age, they could film 2 seasons worth in a year and then pre-production one set for season one, if it's a hit they can go ahead and confirm the post-production work for season 2 that's already hard filmed.
I'm sure they wont and that 30 episode guy that started all this just misheard being told 13, but still.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
I know this is sort of off topic, but why doesn't Winter do a podcast? It seems, at least according to Hibberd, we'll be seeing a first season. As far as I know, there isn't one on the internet as of yet.
MichaelQuote Reply
I don't know what Winter thinks, but from my POV I'm not a huge fan of podcasts unless they are doing something useful, like you can use them as a DVD-style commentary (like Ronald D. Moore's BSG podcasts) or it's the creators of a show responding to Q&As (like Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof's splendid LOST podcasts). I can also usually read much faster than I can listen or watch someone speak, so based on the blog at the moment, I think a a podcast would be pretty redundant at this point.
If we'd been more organised in Belfast, maybe taken some audio-recording stuff and done some voice interviews, that would have been a good use of the podcast format though. Maybe something to bear in mind if there's another meet-up during filming next year (assuming it gets picked up etc).
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Omg, that looks amazing! The sigil, that is. Gorgeous; I can't imagine how it could look better!
For those of you thinking it does not look like a wolf, go look up the artwork "Unicorn in Captivity" and "The Lady and the Unicorn." Looks to me like they are using that style of art, which is authentic medieval and so, is perfect for GoT.
CrystalQuote Reply
Oh, and based on the wolf, I've an idea that the Lannister lion will be similar to lions done in artwork from that period.
CrystalQuote Reply
Knurk, the only thing that will remain of that cart are maybe the doors and wheels, if that. It'll be as big as they want. Things have come a long way since "Sky Captain" used all digital sets, but the John Adams footage shows they can add or take out as much as they want.
Also, right there with you as far as "The Canyon" goes. Perfect example of what GoT *shouldn't* look like.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
If that's the Stark sigil of the direwolf on the wall carving. It's acceptable and good not great. Not what I have seen anywhere in my head or in online interpretations.
The only issue I have with it is the head is rather small. Like really small in comparison to the body. I'm curious now to see what the direwolf looks like all over the costumes or banners and flags.
Do wish the R&D had spent more time R&D the Stark direwolf sigil and heraldric sigils from many periods.
ScottQuote Reply
@ Scott, if you look up authentic medieval artwork, it is obviously done in that style. I may be alone in this, but I don't think they should mix artwork from different periods. I think that would mess up the flow and the feel of the show.
Most online interpretations seem to have chosen styles from later periods.
CrystalQuote Reply
@Crystal.
Let me clarify. I'm a member of the SCA, and passionate about heraldry, pagentry and period history.
WHat I meant was they should have researched many periods of styles of heraldry and found somethign that fit with the Starks history and age. I never said MIX periods.
The North has generally according to the books not interacted with the south that much. Meaning they done stay "with the times" as much.So their clothing, armor and heraldry will look older in style.
Personally it kind of looks like a large ferret.
ScottQuote Reply
@invertebrae
Yes, I think it looks like a large ferret. If they made the direwolfs head large and more wolflike It would work better.
ScottQuote Reply
thought i'd weigh in on Wheelhouse-gate. From the picture it looks like some of the "green screening" has even come off. From what I understand this set was done with and ready to be "taken down" … It pretty much makes sense that this cart is only being used to give the actors something physical to interact with. To climb out of and such. I am wondering that since the doors/windows/wheels are not greened out does that mean they cannot later alter them? I would have concerns if those were the doors/windows/wheels to a "royal" wheelhouse. But then they could be going with a more rough/rugged medieval utilitarian look and feel to the whole thing? i don't know. i don't doubt they can do wonders with CGI but if they have to work around those non greened out elements i don't see how they can be very "lannistery" and opulent? any ideas?
Who Is Jacopo Belbo?Quote Reply
Scott, I don't know if the fact that you don't agree with the interpretation is sufficient evidence that R&D rushed things.
Crystal, you can let me know if we're saying the same thing (and I think we are) but I get the impression that research *was* done and that's precisely why it looks how it does.
We're going to be getting into the stages now where things are taking concrete form, and we'll be seeing many things that clash with our own ideas. We need to start getting used to that.
It looks good to me, and GRRM liked it enough to take a picture of it.
Of course, I realize that as this goes on, more and more problems are going to come up for folks. I'll try not to sound too much like a broken record.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
But from the peek at the extras costume we saw, the whole look of this show is medieval inspired. Why should they used heraldry from a different time period than the costumes?
I think it looks like a wolf done in Gothic style, mid-1400s to 15th century art, and I like the look. I never pictured Renaissance, Tudor, or Elizabethan styles for GoT, always medieval.
CrystalQuote Reply
@ Paul Gude,
Yes, exactly. This art looks like it would be perfect for a medieval setting! I am fairly sure we'll see the rest of the heraldry done in a similar style.
CrystalQuote Reply
@Who is…
I don't think the wheels rule it out being the wheelhouse. It looks like the green was put on on to specifically allow the wheel to move, which makes sense if they had to actually move the position of the cart. Would it have been difficult to "Green" the wheels while it was avtually moving? is it possible they covered the wheels when it was stationary? I have no idea…
JillianQuote Reply
If you look up The Lady and the Unicorn "Taste" tapestry, there is a roaring lion. My guess is that our Lannister lion head will look similar to it.
CrystalQuote Reply
Jacopo, they could overlay onto the actual material, but my guess (with the wheels) is that the lip of the wheelhouse could extend past and obscure them.
I know some folks are complaining the wheels look too old-timey. Just a guess, but I think it's possible that this cart was the closest thing available to what they needed, rather than picked/designed to be exactly what they wanted for the finished product. They're probably not too worried, as it's going to be completely transformed.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Paul G & Jillian: i am completely on board with using it as a acting prop but i wonder how they can digitally alter the appearance of the wheels without them having been also greened out? maybe i do not understand cgi but i thought in order to place a digitally rendered overlay over something that appears on film it has to be 'greened' (or blued? i think i saw that somewhere) out? which would mean you couldn't overlay CGI wheels (and door/windows) over the dumpy ones on that rickety cart? am i wrong in my understanding of how CGI works? can they in fact also replace the wheels, windows, door on the cart in addition to whatever CGI wizardry they do to replace what is covered in the green cloth?
@crystal: peek at extra costumes? man, what did i miss now? dammint janet!
Who Is Jacopo Belbo?Quote Reply
@lauren. A decent job trying to define the head. But…
Based on the texture of the fur they did in the carving of the wolf. The neck is thinner and longer and the head smaller then your outline.
I still stand by my opinion and my knowledge and major research on this. The head even for close to period heraldry the wolf's head is to small. I'll give the doubt that its been worn down due to age.
Even in medieval ages, they did a decent job of getting proportions done well enough. The look of appendages and heads may be a distant interpretation but the look was there.
ScottQuote Reply
Scott,
I'm sorry that your academic knowledge in this area is going to lessen your enjoyment of the series. Gemma Jackson's work on John Adams won her an Emmy. While it's not the same as having a strong grasp on heraldry, it shows enough attention to detail on a historical project that I'm betting at least some thought went into the wolf's design.
As a layman, I think it looks really good. Lucky for me, anyway.
Speaking of John Adams…
Jacopo, stop what you're doing and watch this.
It will be much more instructive than me about how current green screen technology works.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
The design of the wolf looks closer to period art in the dark ages then in the middle ages of 13-15th centuries.
@Paul Gude "Scott, I don't know if the fact that you don't agree with the interpretation is sufficient evidence that R&D rushed things"
I've been a passionate medieval fan and historian since I was 16 and joined the SCA at 20. I have a wolf in my heraldry myself. I had to do a shitload of research as wolves weren't commonly used in heraldry. I also have a 4 year degree in art and design. I can usually spot when they didn't exhaust all options, or even tweek something even to make it a we bit more layman even in a fantasy setting. Hell this is westeros. I love that they are doing their best to be true to the books and close to historical look. But heck this is a fantasy world. They can deviate a little. I just don't like the fact it looks loosely like a wolf and more like a ferret on steroids.
No one should use Google as a definite source for accuracy. But I can say that a wolf sigil in the middle ages of 13th-14th would look more like this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_H2gf2RwVTcw/SA837j9_XKI/AAAAAAAAA8M/9bwzHrREsdU/s400/wolf-stantant.gif
When I did my own designs of Stark heraldry. I turned more toward north european art on wolves. Such as the norse/scandinavia.
ScottQuote Reply
It wont lessen my enjoyment at all. You assume to much of me and not knowing me at all. I'm allowed an opinion on it, thus there you go. If anything if they read this they may take it to heart and take some constructive critique.
I said the design was acceptable and good not great. It could have been better. Still think they could have made it more wolf like (in the fore part of the wolf)
.
After looking at it in length and doing a little photoshop work. I still stand the head is tiny in comparison to the rest of the boy and now I'm starting to think based on my database of art the neck may be a tad long.
I'm just going to shrug this one off. And I'm still greatly excited by everthing and that this is happening.
ScottQuote Reply
@ Scott: I don't think it's is as disproportionate as you seem to feel.
enhanced sigil
and real snarling wolf
Considering that even the enhanced pic is blurred, I think the proportions are pretty good. The head on the sigil you linked is far too large. I prefer the wolf used to that!
And, this is a link to an encyclopedia written in the 1800s regarding the subject of the coat of arms. You might look at some of their sigils. There's even a wolf.
CrystalQuote Reply
That's a lot of green on the wagon. I wonder how large they will manage to make it.
The engraving is still beautiful. I see winter roses, maybe the heart tree?
Can anyone make out the three objects above the "wolf" :D?
To me they look like varying sizes of flowers
ScottQuote Reply
@Scott -
Not saying what your saying isn't true, just going to say that I'm glad I am approaching it from a layman's perspective because it looks damn good to me :) That last link you posted doesn't look THAT much different to me. The obvious difference is that the direwolf has a much broader neck and chest. It also appears to be crouched down a bit with its neck extended. That said, the head doesn't look much smaller to me, but that is my layman's opinion.
I will say that I am sure that they did a whole lot of research into this stuff and if something looks the way it does, I am sure it is intentional. I wouldn't assume that the problem is a lack of effort on the R&D department.
ChrisQuote Reply
historically accurate or not, I like this wolf better than the one on the cover of A Game of Thrones
JillianQuote Reply
To me the objects above the wolf look like trees in the distances. Probably "heart trees."
CrystalQuote Reply
Joke is gonna be on us when the cart turns out to be a fruit cart, and the emblem actually is a ferret and part of the Your Highness set… :) But the idle speculation is so fun!
ChrisQuote Reply
@Jillian
I agree.
Now, I won't have anything to say if any leaked Lannister sigils get put up. Lions were rampant in historical stuff.
ScottQuote Reply
I love the stylized look of the wolf sigil. I am with Crystal in thinking that it looks perfect.
As for the wheel house I wanted to add that we don't have proper perspective here to judge. I mean that quite literally. In addition to any CGI elements added by postproduction, there is also the issue of scale and forced perspective. For all we know the door of the wheelhouse/gypsy cart will be able to allow entry to three people walking abreast.
lordnedsheadQuote Reply
I'm gonna giggle a little inside when I see the pilot and the "direferret". More if its all over and much easier to discern.
*nibble nibble gnaw gnaw grrr grr menacing and imposing!
ScottQuote Reply
Scott,
You're right.
I took your statements that it didn't look right as an indication you were disappointed with it. Sorry if I misinterpreted that.
If all you wanted to do is complain about it, or make light of it, then good on ya.
I'd take your own advice to heart about jumping to conclusions about people you don't know anything about, though. You've come down pretty hard on the people who designed that wolf, and I doubt you've had a chance to ask them why they made the choices they did.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Chris, that gets me back to the idea of Julia Frey reading this thread and cackling to herself over our interpretations of what she's doing.
Really the perfect photo.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
i am completely on board with using it as a acting prop but i wonder how they can digitally alter the appearance of the wheels without them having been also greened out? maybe i do not understand cgi but i thought in order to place a digitally rendered overlay over something that appears on film it has to be 'greened' (or blued? i think i saw that somewhere)
It was once a necessity (before CGI was really well developed), but isn't any longer. They still use green screen to make things easier, but in a pinch, like when something goes wrong in a shot and it would be too costly to reshoot or they only catch it much later in editing, they can just go in and add or remove anything they want. I've seen were actors who are walking around and moving a lot, even pretty close to the camera, are completely removed from shots because it affected the composition. You can't even tell someone else had been in the shot once they are done with it. They just repaint the background where the actor was taken out.
If they want to replace those "dumpy" wheels they can. Personally, I don't mind if they keep them as they are. These wheels just carried that cart some significant part of the way from King's Landing to Winterfell – that's a trek of something approaching 2000 miles along the King's Road. I say "significant part" because we hear that the thing breaks down constantly and they are always repairing it – presumably the wheels and axles.
BrudeQuote Reply
Brude,
I agree on that score. In story terms wheels could simply be utilitarian, rugged things put there by the wainwright because it was known that the majestic wheelhouse would be completely overshadowing them.
Or, as Chris says, it's just a fruit cart and we're all going crazy for nothing.
Either way, nothing to worry about, folks.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I'm a commenter from the cheap seats. My voice wont carry very far, and most likely wont matter. unless I'm not actually a part of the minority in thinking so on this. I know a certain important people read this. Maybe they can be mature enough just to shrug this off as a crazy fan or enough to maybe question it themselves.
And anyone who is hired for such a position in Production design and R&D. Such as I have been in graphic should know or how to handle constructive critisism. Otherwise you wouldn't survive in such a job.
Even though I'm passionate about this, and disagree a little in the design. I still think it looks real and its well done.
Although! I would jump on the chance to interview the design crew. Oh how would I, If I knew how and if they'd be willing to. I have so many questions that probably wont be answered until much much later.
The beauty of research and design is seeing it come to fruition. And you will never truly appease everyone unless your willing to put something up on the chopping block or in front of the firing squad.
"crazy fan" eagerly awaiting all the hard work come to fruition!
ScottQuote Reply
Scott,
I'm *really* looking forward to hearing from all of the production staff. An actual Q&A would be great, but even the footage from the documentary crew will make me extremely happy.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@ Scott:
To an extent, I agree with you. I do think the head looks a bit small… or at least the muzzle. The muzzle should be longer.
The fact is, many of us weren't sure whether it was a wolf at first. Primarily, IMO, due to the head/muzzle. Why else did we have to enhance and zoom it, before we were sure?
Regardless, it looks cool… but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a special stylized sigil above a doorway, and different from the emblem that will appear on the Stark banners.
lexQuote Reply
@lex. Yes, agree.
ScottQuote Reply
Oh, and duh…
Thanks for the report, Rimshot!
I read and enjoy your information and hardly every say anything about it any more.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
it's just a strange looking wolf is all. doesn't resonate with what our collective minds see when envisioning the direwolves and stark sigil. i think that is a fair, and safe statement, no?
that said, it's still a nice little bas relief, and we'll likely never see it up close so who really cares. that wall still looks freaking ridiculous! (in a good way)
let's just hope the stark banners don't have ferret wolves on them, as that would be less forgivable by me and the rest of you lot.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
That particular bas-relief could well be 1000 years old or more. Winterfell is OOOOOLLLLDDDDDD. The style used on the contemporary banners could be a bit different, we'll see.
BrudeQuote Reply
@Brude
Agreed, they get to take whatever liberties they wish to use. I like the idea that this relief was from an era prior to the one thriving in Westeros when the story takes place.
Sidenote, was it Brandon the Builder who erected Winterfell?
Either way, here are some various styles, from Byzantine to Norse, of various wolves I was checking out today, if anyone is interested…
- An Assortment of Wolves
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
@Brude and Invertebrae.
Agree. Winterfell is old. And the reliefs and designs on winterfell could be older style art then the more "contemporary" style used on costumes and banners in winterfell. Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder yes. According to the books.
ScottQuote Reply
Part of Winterfell are very old. Other parts not so much.
lordnedsheadQuote Reply
Brude, Scott, Ryan,
Great points all. If this was meant to look older and the banners are of a different style, it would add to the sense of history.
Not a bad idea, and a nice detail to throw in.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Regarding that wolf: don't forget that Winterfell is an ancient place. This may as well be just a piece of decorative artwork dating back to the Age of Heroes, so the actual Stark sigil might look completely different.
Maybe the costum to wear a coat of arms was introduced to Westeros much later (by the Andals, let's say). As we already learned earlier in this thread, heraldry is an evolving art. Therefore, I like the idea of Winterfell containing different interpretations of it much better than pasting the same, "modern" direwolf-crest all over the place.
Also, I got another idea concerning those "30 episodes" everybody speculates on: my guess is that someone down the line of communication mixes it up with "30 days of shooting". Think about it this way: it would make perfect sense to film the episodes completely out of order, based on the various locations/casts rather than the order the scenes will appear in the finished product:
30 days seems about right to me to film the trip to Kings Landing and everything that will happen there, and there won't be any other places where a Baratheon guard is needed. After that, they could send 90% of the cast home, and continue to shoot everything that takes place at the wall, send everyone home again and move the production on to Marocco.
And so on – they surely won't travel to Marocco every other week just to shoot a few minutes worth of footage for one episode, will they?
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
@invertebrae and everyone else who is curious
I've also found some cool heraldric wolf stuffs.
check it out:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Bartensleben_Schloss.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Armoirie.loup.png
http://www.ngw.nl/int/dld/w/images/wolfegg.jpg
the first link is the real impressive one.
ScottQuote Reply
I like the scrawny french one. And all of them, to be honest. I've always loved wolves. That may be part of why I instantly liked the Starks, now that I think about it. :)
lexQuote Reply
BTW, has anyone ever mentioned the first Narnia film? It had CG wolves. To be honest, despite having an awesome design, they still looked somewhat fake to me. CG animals almost never fully blend in with live actors, IMO. However, I'm guessing that the CG wolves from Narnia will look better than anything we'll get, considering they were produced with a massive budget by WETA (the LOTR people).
Maybe real wolves is the way to go?
lexQuote Reply
The more I think about it, the idea of ANYTHING being drawn by 40 horses gets sillier and sillier:
The animals alone (given they are put up in pairs) would amount to a line of at least 50m. Now imagine the space needed to let them go in a circle, let alone PULLING something around a narrow streetcorner or a bend in the way: the front animals would already be going in a different direction than the ones in the back. So the whole kingsroad would need to be build like a railway line…
Now, what happens if something so heavy as to require 40 strong animals to pull it goes downhill? How many guys have to step on the brakes?
Finally, how do you LIFT the damn thing in case of a broken wheel? That would surely require a crane of some sort.
You see: the gate of Winterfell being not big enough to pass through would be the very least of their problems. Given Roberts temper, he would have put the bloody thing to the torch before reaching the fork ;-)
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Heh, good points, Dunkeltroll!
On the subject of the sigil, my take is that Winterfell would use an older style of heraldry; since, as has already been pointed out, the North is somewhat isolated from the rest of Westeros. I think of it as if Winterfell and the rest of the North is more like late 9th-10th century England and even Scandinavia, with the South more like the 13th-14th century France and Germany.
GRRM has stated in interviews that his historial period interests tend more towards the time of the Wars of the Roses, solidly 15th century. But the books mix and match periods in a typical fantasy way. So you have armor that seems to run the gamut from armor described like scale armor, which was old when the Romans used it, all the way up to late 15th century Gothic-style full plate armor. The castles seem to run have a similar spread, but seem mostly to be enlarged versions of later 12th century Anglo-Norman-style castles.
So, I see no reason why the heraldric symbols can't display as seemingly wide a time frame, from older-looking designs of simple heraldy to the complicated later arms. The major houses, being older have simpler heraldry like the Stark's grey direwolf on a white field and Lannister golden lion on a red field. But there are also plenty of the more complicated arms of tthe minors houses, like those described when Tyrion challenges Pod to name the sigils of the approaching Dornish at one point.
And GRRM clearly knows this stuff, because I distinctly recall one of the characters (can't recall which one at the moment) having his heraldry described as specifically cadenced as a cadet branch (Scott will know that I mean here).
I love the discussions here!
mogonsQuote Reply
Somehow I got a feeling Julia Frey just answered to my question about her clothes :D
MauberlyQuote Reply
Wow – looks like my pics have really set the cat amongst the pigeons. Or is that wolf amongst…..err…..Westeros fans ?
Sorry I didn’t get a better one of the sigil, but my pics were taken from a location freely accessible to the public. As you can see there was some ‘closing off’ and I didn’t want to cross that line.
Re potential ‘set crossover’ with ‘Your Highness’. The only reason I thought of this – in reference to the Castle Ward location – was because of the script page posted on to the wall of the temp structure. As I have since reasoned (in a none too dazzling burst of intuition) that the structure could have been previously used for ‘YH’ elsewhere (where the script page was tacked on) and was then utilised for AGoT at Castle Ward. I haven’t followed the production of ‘YH’ so I have no idea whether they used Castle Ward at all. Might be that they were nowhere near the place.
Of course, there are sets for both ‘YH’ and ‘AGoT’ in the Paint Hall, but they are separate. This structure is MASSIVE. It was formerly used for painting ships, hence the name, and is divided into four huge ‘cells’ – only one of which is (to my understanding) being used for AGoT (that might change if – fingers crossed – the series is picked up) .
And yes, I can see it as being very cold to work in all day. Think of a massive and draughty warehouse down by the docks and you get the picture.
Oh and thanks for posting the links to the John Adams SFX, I’m halfway through watching this series (god bless HBO for the likes of this, Band of Brothers, Carnivale, Deadwood, The Wire, Curb etc – the list goes on) and I’m gobsmacked at how that link reveals what they have done. Truly amazing.
kinnygrahamQuote Reply
This is for the first time, this blog made me little angry. I mean the whole thing about that wolf carving. So much negative buzz around it, i dont want to see, what will happen here, when you find out about some changes from the books,when some costume will be different from what you've imagined etc etc. I thought, that this will never happen here on WiC, but i am starting to believe that i wasn't right.
All that negativity just because the wolf is slightly different from what you've imagined. I don't understand it.
And from my POV, it is a wolf done in sort of medieval style and it looks awesome and it fits the Starks well.
It looks like I'm alone in this, but – creators of Game of Thrones, you're doing well and that stone sigil is great.
Molda22Quote Reply
Scott: I am interested in your coat of arms designs. Where could we see those?
MarkoQuote Reply
On the set, I was wondering why Arya was holding some knitting, while watching the sparring with Jon.
I've just read the 'Arya' chapter and all becomes clear! I wish I had read the chapter before I was in the scene as it would have all made more sense.
@Silverstar – I know I'm in exactly the wrong place if I want to avoid spoilers but I just can't resist popping in here to see what's going on. Sorry I didn't get chatting to you more last Wednesday. Next time you're over the Guinness is on me!
concerning the photos and current discussions…
Firstly, forget about 'Your Highness'. At the Unit Base, 'G&H' ( the company used on all major shoots here in NI) supply various types of vehicles, like costume trucks, lighting trucks, mini-buses etc. They also supply '4 ways' which is basically a movable set of changing rooms which are often used by doubles/stunts etc. I noticed that the same 4-way that I used as a double on 'Your Highness' was being used on GOT but that the room signs were still the 'YH' ones. They just haven't been changed yet. In fact, I saw a mini-bus that had 'Your Highness Transportation' written in the window.
As far as I know the Castleward set is new and has only been used by GOT.
The photos. The first photo is shot through the entrance gate. The gate just under the sigul in the fake wall was where we went through to access the toilets and where the actors 'greem room' was. My 'Stark Servant' role was filling one of those large braziers you can see with logs while the sparring went on behind me. Me and another Stark Servant were hauling logs up a ladder into that frigging brazier all day. Every time we did it (I'm talking loads of logs here!) we would hear 'cut' and then the dreaded 're-set' which meant we had to empty the bloody thing; haul all the logs back and then start all over again!!
I had a really good look at the sigul and it looks the part to me. I was very impressed with how authentic it looks.
I can't say anymore but the photo is less than half the set. There is alot more to the right of the gate which you can't see in the photo.
(You should have seen it when it was 'occupied' with all the actors/extras/horses/chickens…!)
rimshot44Quote Reply
"@Silverstar – I know I'm in exactly the wrong place if I want to avoid spoilers but I just can't resist popping in here to see what's going on. Sorry I didn't get chatting to you more last Wednesday. Next time you're over the Guinness is on me!"
Sounds good to me ;)
SilverstarQuote Reply
@Molda22:
I don't think the reactions are really negative, but surprised. The Stark sigil is one of most frequently depicted "icons" of the series, I guess, and a lot of people have a very accurate picture of it in their minds. This "stone carving" is a take on the subject not seen before in context of the series (of books), so it makes people wonder.
As I said before, I don't think that it represents the current coat-of-arms of house Stark, but a predecessor or an archetype. Even if not, I wouldn't be disappointed – it would simply need a little time to "sink in".
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Molda22, if you think this is negative, you weren't around for the Tamzin Merchant debates.
Though even in fairness to that … I've seen much, much worse on the wwwebternets. Really, the Tamzin thing was essentially one or two (anonymous) juveniles throwing out troll-spit, two or three mature posters saying they weren't really confident with the casting, and about two-dozen other people supporting the choice.
Personally, I think Merchant is bloody hot and talented, but some people couldn't get over the "Most beautiful girl in the world" title many thought Daenerys should have. It all comes down to personal taste.
But the direwolf bas-relief debate? It's not even a debate. It's a conversation with opinions, all strong ones, and most of them educated.
Personally? I like the gold direwolf on the yellow cover of A Game of Thrones. But that's me; I would personally encourage brand-spanking new kinds of heraldic devices, as Westeros is not earth and doesn't have to hearken back to any particular period.
Don't agree? Awesome. But we've hardly deteriorated to name-calling (unless you count the 100 or so names people have for Paul Gude).
We're fine. Let the debates continue!
About Yea HighQuote Reply
Personally, I think there's no point worrying too much about tiny things like the Stark sigil or the wheelhouse or whatever. Any time people get a bit wound up about things like that, take a step back, and remember how HUGELY lucky we are to be getting such an amazing adaptation of books we adore in the first place. I'm sure we can live with a few things that aren't exactly what we imagined from the books :)
SilverstarQuote Reply
Oh, yes, and:
Rimshot – thanks again for your stuff. You AND kinnygraham (don't kill kinny!) have given us more stuff to drool over. And debate about.
I have no idea what we're going to do in the next few months.
Mauberly, nice link to Julia Frey's site. I check that thing every day – not so much for GoT news (she has an ill-reputed and infamous poker face) but just for the eye-on-life stuff she posts. I read it, my wife reads it. I swear the dog even read it once. Chick's got one of those lives where you go, Wow, how exciting. What a cool life! … And I'm so glad I'm warm and indoors.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
I agree it's far from critical yet, but also that people ascribe too much to the little things we have the luck to glean. While in general the fans trust the producers, there are a lot of judgements passed based on inadequate knowledge of what is possible in postproduction, and the assumption that things on screen cannot be vastly different from what we see in the photos. I bet many people would be in some ways disappointed if they watched the shoot itself, for similar reasons. Far from being any kind of expert, but even without such authority I say: calm down already now at the start, or it will escalate further down the line.
MarkoQuote Reply
@rimshot44:
I worked for a company specialized in renting mobil rooms, toilets, showers etc. earlier this year. The stuff gets used for construction zones, racing events and rock festivals alike. Once the "event" is over, the rentees are usually in a hurry to get back home or wherever, and sometimes there is no time to clean things up before transporting it to the next location. It's "amazing" what you can find in these containers – both trash (think half eaten, week old pizza) and leftovers like drinks, paperwork, boxes of shirts, catalogues…
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
'(don't kill kinny!)'
*looks around nervously*
Errmmm…..I hadn't realised that there was a contract out on me………
Unless those stories of vat-grown HBO ninja-assassins are true ?
*gulp*
kinnygrahamQuote Reply
Never heard of the Faceless Men, kinny?
SilverstarQuote Reply
I am so sorry.
But kinnygraham has 'gone away'.
Forget you knew kinnygraham.
So sorry.
kinnygrahamQuote Reply
Ran at Westeros posted this:
30 Weeks of Filming
MauberlyQuote Reply
Cool! and very reasonable. Another question finds its answer, I believe.
MarkoQuote Reply
PS – Better rates for 'problem removal' in Quarth.
kinnygrahamQuote Reply
Ran's news on Westeros seems to kill the already-remote chances of the series airing in 2010 stone dead.
If it's a 30-week shoot and they start on 1 March (which we know they won't), that will take the filming through to mid-September. If it's a June start, which may be much more realistic, they probably wouldn't wrap until almost Christmas 2010. They can't start showing the series before it's filmed because in the time it takes to film one episode they'll have filmed three, and HBO never do that anyway. They always wait until the whole season is in the bag before showing anything.
In fact, my prior favoured date of January 2011 may even be a little optimistic now.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Er, the time it takes to film one episode, they'll have SHOWN almost three, sorry.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
So long as it gets shown at some point, I'm happy.
SilverstarQuote Reply
As long as it is some time that winter :) Hope the decision on greenlighting the season comes a bit earlier so they can prepare and indeed start shooting around March. A June start is too late in my opinion.
MarkoQuote Reply
We know Jennifer Ehle is unavailable until May, IIRC, so to me that makes a much earlier start date unlikely. Factor in time to write all the scripts, do the additional casting and so on, I'm not seeing a much earlier start date as being very realistic.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Well, there's a fair amount they could be filming without Jennifer Ehle, if needs be. All the stuff in Morocco, for one thing. Most of the King's Landing shenanigans. Everything beyond the Wall. She's mostly needed for bits at Winterfell, a little bit in King's Landing, all the Eyrie stuff, and then at Riverrun. So they could start filming before May.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Bah, to think it might even happen we need to wait for 2 more years, brrr :/ and perhaps about a year until the promos …
MarkoQuote Reply
On a wolf between bare trees: It could be seen as an emblemae for the Starks, combining their wolf and the leafless trees of winter as a pictorial combination of arms and motto..
I have actually, from the start, had my issues with GRRMs heraldry, mainly because of its disregard of our earth´s heraldic rules on colour on metal/metal on colour.("Sable, a flaming chain vert in bend" By the time you got close enough to Bronn to distinguish the green on green flame and chains, you would be dead) Of course GRRMs world has its own heraldic rules, but it makes for a blurrier heraldry.
The Stark wolf, described as charging,and usually rendered as courant is, as a mainly horizontal shape , difficult to use to fill up the shield. Note how, in the Bartesleben arms shown above, they combined it with two sheaves in the arms to achieve this. In the fanart and covers this is often attempted solved by pulling the wolf up to a rampant or saliant position.
And of course in traditional heraldry grey, white and silver would all be argent, making the Stark arms blazon:
"Argent, a wolf argent courant(or saliant)"
Of course it is doable, but it needs a dark grey and a very clean white to make it clear.
I am really interested to find out how the designers have solved these quandries.
The poster formally known as
Thoros of Myr
prometevsbergQuote Reply
@prometevsberg … I spent hours yesterday on wikipedia reading about heraldry and as a result I totally understood what you were saying…
hayrickmanQuote Reply
30 weeks seems like a long time to have as a filming schedule for a show that is going to have only a half season episode order.
Most full 22 episode full season shows only shot for about 40 weeks.
But then of course, alot of those shows have their mid season breaks and such and shooting continues while the series airs.
Heroes for example just showed episode 9 while future episodes are still being filmed this week for the same series.
No chance of GoT going that way I suppose?
legion_quest666Quote Reply
I think HBO desnt do it that way… Which, on the other side, means we get more quality product. And well, year or three – deosntmatter for me at all, as long as i get to see it! We waited for so long, one more year wont be that hard :D
petrQuote Reply
Just one more year is what we keep saying about the books…….lol
legion_quest666Quote Reply
This may have been addressed in another thread, so forgive me if it has …
In regards to the timing of filming/releasing, etc, if we're looking at potentially 2 more years, how do you think this will effect the story, as far as the child actors go? The series' content doesnt span over years, so far at least. Two years might not make much of a difference in regards to the appearance of the younger actors, but if the series gets picked up ( as we hope it does! ) we're looking at potentially 7 seasons … thats a long time. I cant imagine that Issac will look like an 8 year old Bran even by the time the 5th season rolls around, nor Maisie like a 10 year old Arya.
I know films and shows have dealt with this before, namely the Harry Potter movies. I dont have a problem with age differences between characters and their actors, but there can be a big difference between a 20 year old playing a 17 year old and, say, a 13 year old trying to play an 8 year old character.
Arya is probably my favorite character in the book series, and I think Maisie is perfect for the part, as far as her appearance ! I'm excited to see her on screen, given the positive acclaim she's recieved by GRRM and D&D. what happens if, in a few years, she looks to "old" to play Arya? I hate when actors are replaced, especially when you've come to love that character as a particular actor has come to represent them. I would hate to see Maisie replaced later down the road because of the age gap that will inevitably come.
Already, some of the characters' ages have been adjusted for the production ( Robb, Jon, Daenarys )How do you think they could handle the aging of the even younger actors, as the series progresses? No doubt Issac and Maisie will look very different by the end of the series (assuming all 7 are shown) as compared to how they look now. Is this a big deal? Will it effect the story much? Will it effect viewers of the show? Do you think there is a possibility of adjusting the story some to accommodate the aging of the younger actors?
Just some food for thought.
RahBurQuote Reply
I think because of the way the series progresses they have three options:
1) They slow things down in the series and have things that seem to happen over night in the books take months in the series. This would allow the children to age naturally, like in Harry Potter where each book is set one year later (bar the last few). While it would still mean that the actors would be portraying characters older than their book counterparts, it would explain away their natural aging and allow the same actors to return each series. As far as the story goes, it would slow alot down which could ruin the dynamic of the events.
2) Re-Casting. If the children grow up too fast, they get re-cast. Personally, I'm against this (when they time jumped in Rome and aged up Octavian I really disliked that (it didn't help that the replacement was awful where as the original was really good)), but I can see why it might appeal to others who prefer things stay book canon about anything else and to the producers who are going to have a real issue over what to do with disabled Bran and the Hodor carrying if he grows up too fast or ends up having an early growth spurt!
3) Hard film (ie, with no cgi rendering or post productions work) several series worth with the kids while they are young and then do this each year so that you have the children's sequences ready to be edited in to the adult sequences years in advance. I doubt they would do this, but it does lend itself to the 30 episode's worth stuff that the extra mentioned.
Obviously this is going to be a really big issue for the makers of the show if it gets picked up and it will be interesting to see what they do.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
On the plus side, they have fewer characters to worry about, as they have aged up many of them to teenagers, and those actors won't radically change in appearance.
MarkoQuote Reply
I haven't followed much discussion regards the book so this is maybe already known/spoken of, but is one year in Westeros the same as one Earth year? i.e. perhaps a Westeros year = 2 earth years.
Maybe that's how they get away with it ;)
ps. I realise it's probably meant to be the same but fantasy leaves room for bending the rules ;)
JacMac30Quote Reply
@Marko,
Right. There's only a few characters to worry about as far as age is concerned, but they are major characters, who, so far, have managed to survive GRRM's plot thus far …
I'm anxious to see how they handle this. I'm glad they decided to up the ages of some of the other characters though.
**SPOILER**
I think the general viewing audience will have an easier time accepting an older Robb as King of the North.
**SPOILER**
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the series gets picked up and that they will find a creative way of handling the natural aging of the children, without having to recast.
RahBurQuote Reply
Didn't someone who went to the Moot in Belfast mention that Maisie was older than we first thought?
Perhaps Arya has been aged up as well, leaving only Bran to really worry about?
legion_quest666Quote Reply
@Moldy
What you talkin' bout? This whole debate is about whether 1) it's indeed a wolf at all, and 2) is it truly original for the GoT set or a YH hand me down that fits in. For you to be physically angry is interesting to say the least.
@Mauby
Yeah, I speculated a two concurrent season order was highly unlikely. 30 weeks duh, why did nobody posit that the woes "episodes" may have been the errant one??
@A. Whitey
Even if filming didn't start in earnest until may, I still see no reason a Jan 2011 airdate (my past, and current prediction) couldn't happen. Why not?
@AYH
Name calling? I've only ever called Paul Glued by his proper name, Güd. I don't see any reason for calling P. Gewd by his rightful ne (The Gude) would ever be considered name calling. After all, we love Guderati.
@legiey
reading over your series progression scenarios, i think they will try their hardest for number 1. there isn't a large enough time jump in the books to warrant number 2, and as i've said before, there is a linearity to show writing, it's not all done in one pile. each script is honed and crafted right up until (and sometimes during) principle photography of that script. that said, number 3 runs into the problem of not having the latter parts of the series shot in order to capitalize on the aging conundrum of the younger talent.
RE: 30 weeks vs. episodes
I'm fairly certain that 30 weeks is "appropriate" for a 12-15 episode season of GoT. It took seven months to film (not post) John Adams, which yielded about 7-9 hours of edited footage. That's almost 30 weeks right there. GoT will need 12-15 hours of edited footage. Even if they manage to shoot one episode in 18 days, and they only do 12 episodes, that's still 216 days of shooting, which equals 36 weeks (if you have them shooting 6 day weeks).
Seems just about exactly right to my eyes, no?
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
I don't know. I have little to no knowledge of shooting schedules beyond what I have read on other forums and blogs about other shows.
Like I say, Heroes claims to take about 40 weeks, but shoots while the series is airing. I've seen anything from 10 to 18 days per episode for Rome and similar for True Blood (with 12 being the average), which the doomed Jericho managed to turn an episode round in a week.
HBO will decide what to do I'm sure if the show gets picked up.
The other thing to consider with long shooting schedules is the actors. With the work load some of them have lined up, I'd be suprised to see such a long shooting schedule, but then I guess not everyone is needed every day and actors can likely work on seperate things at once.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Molda22,
I understand exactly where you're coming from. Ryan, if Molda22 is convinced it's authentic (like I am) a lot of the comments could be taken as being mocking to the designer. That's enough to get disgusted a bit at the discussion. I temper it myself with a lot of head-shaking and eye-rolling.
As far as the "30 weeks" vs. "30 episodes" vs. "13 episodes," I'm going to keep harping on this, too.
The guy said that he was told 30 episodes. Not that he "overheard" it, but he was told it. We also have no idea who told him, and how they came by their information.
That being said, once you've made up your mind that "30 episodes" is false, using the figure 30 or 13 to somehow glean a shooting schedule is no more effective then going off of things that we've heard earlier about 12 episodes. It's beyond anecdotal at that point.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Okay, missed the all important:
"according to a source peripherally involved in the production"
On Ran's post.
That changes everything I said. If Ran trusts this source, then that's a reason to go the 30-weeks route and assume 30-episodes was misheard.
A new bit of information changes everything, always.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
It's interesting that both numbers are 30.
Maybe the extra misunderstood what he was being told? 30 episodes and 30 weeks just got confused somewhere along the lines.
Equally, but unlikely, it could be that Ran's 'peripheral source' has misunderstood 30 episodes as 30 weeks.
Gotta love guessing games like this.
legion_quest666Quote Reply
i'm putting my money on 30 weeks of filming being the production estimates at this point. if they do minor reshooting for EP101 after the show is optioned, then they have a couple weeks head start, and a couple weeks of pre-pro head start, and a big casting head start.
my 36 week estimate (12 episodes, 18 days/episode, 6-day shooting weeks) is at all in the ballpark, then the time saved above plus efficiencies in episode shooting days along the way, then 30 weeks is just about a perfect estimate.
30 episodes is much harder to logically quantify, and 30 days is a strange number to assure some scottish fight/stunt guys of as a future promise to give them work.
peace and maintain…
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Yeah, Legion I erroneously thought the "30 weeks" was more speculation along the lines of "maybe he heard '13 episodes'" until I saw Ran had a source.
Once that came through, the 30 becomes significant again.
Maybe something like this, "Tough shoot, huh?"
"Yeah, it's been a hard week."
"If the show gets picked up, we have 30 more!"
Again, like you said, just guessing games.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
And we have a new thread to guess in as our awesome daily update rolls round!
legion_quest666Quote Reply
My money is on 30 weeks!
@Molda22
Do not be angry at us, please.
Sometimes we can exagerate a little bit, but we tend to be positive, overall.
Nobody said, anything really bad.
And I am sure everyone here is excited about the series.
The most of us is aware, that we are not going to have "our" version of GOT, it will be a HBO one, and I am cool with it.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Just to add a little something: before we see the first episode, and then the rest, we cannot even start saying it's different from what we imagined. We'll have to wait before we know.
MarkoQuote Reply
Yeah, Molda, no need to get angry.
We are all fans here, and as Rabbit says, things are likely going to change from the books. As soon as the beloved source material changes, people are bound to be disappointed.
Very few people are ever over the top around here, we just like to discuss every minute detail to death because we are mad obsessives!
You gotta take the rought with the smooth and remember most of all, we're all here to have a laugh most of the time.
Well, I am anyway ;)
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Agreed. What bothers me is people who think there are going to be big bad (ok, adjectives optional) changes based on no proper evidence. It's certainly too soon for that.
MarkoQuote Reply
Yeah, this isn't XMEN 3, no big bad changes here!
…………….So far…………
legion_quest666Quote Reply
Just to add something, I have been through all of this with LOTR.
I knew people who were angry at Peter Jackson, because he ruined all they had in their heads…
It is ridiculous…
On the other hand, we can exageret sometimes here, as Legion pointed out, but it is all in a good intention.
There is no bih news, and we are going crazy abiut the small ones.
I have never filled bad vibes on this blog (not counting a bounch of teenage trolls attacking our Dany)
I do not mind ih my Mel is not the Mel Legion has in his head.
And it makes me laugh, there is no reason, to be angry as someone sees things differently.
The rabbitQuote Reply
The Rabbit,
I can't speak for Molda, but the only thing that I didn't like about the wolf discussion is when it was suggested that the production design folks skimped on their research and therefore came up with a bad wolf.
It's one thing to say that the thing they came up with doesn't match your own idea of it, but claiming that it doesn't match your idea because they're bad at their job is something else entirely.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
And that wolf is not very indicative of any other wolf design to be used on the show, on top of that. To me it's rather a nice touch that shows their attention to details in production design – we expected nothing less.
MarkoQuote Reply
Paul. thank you for explanation.
I admit, I did not read carefully all todays posts.
I thought that Ryan and me got you angry with our birds and foxes.
That is a whole different thing you are talking about.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Hey, Rabbit.
No big deal, and Scott went on to explain himself afterwards, but Molda's comments were before that explanation.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I guess some people took my little remark as the wolf carving on the wall looking like a "ferret" to emotionally. Try to distance yourself emotionally when you are in a discussion on design. Otherwise you will do no good for yourself or the other in a discussion over opinions.
Let me help add a little historical information regarding the use of a few non-traditional heraldric colors and metals. Other-in-law and I were having this same discussion regarding GRRM and his heraldry in Westeros being different but inspired by history.
I dont want to paste everything here but I'll link the conversation. I'll take a snipit out for reference.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=39909&pid=1963901&st=0&#entry1963901
"Now the only possibility is that in the later 14th century in Germany some other Tinctures in RL heraldric use came to be used. Such as Cendree (grey/iron)" I should have include "to the 16th"
Colors such as dark grey, brown, dark red made appearances later in medieval times.
ScottQuote Reply
I have to remind myself that Winterfell is MUCH older then Kings Landing and well nearly the entirety of westeros. So Seeing heraldry and sigils of direwolves looking older, say from dark age like art is more understandable. Seeing that on a carving in a wall much more understandable. It would translate a little more difficult on banners and costumes.
I can't argue that it looks authentic on the wall. They did a fine job making it look real.
Now I haven't mocked the designer. Just given a constructive opinion on the matter. If I wanted to insult the designer…well that would be easier and much more imature.
Now insulting was when people insulted the beauty of Tamzin. I think she is pretty. Not my vision of Dany but *shrug* I think I said that somewhere else. But I was more concerned with her acting. I had only seen her in Tudors so I couldn't make a better educated guess on her reading of Dany. I'll trust GRRM since he saw those.
I'll say it again. I would love to hear Production design and those involved answering fan questions. It would be great to know where they got their inspiration and research from.
And @Legion. I'd have to argue that Wolverine Origins was much worse then XMEN3.
@Gude "I can't speak for Molda, but the only thing that I didn't like about the wolf discussion is when it was suggested that the production design folks skimped on their research and therefore came up with a bad wolf."
My apology I was a little cold on that.
ScottQuote Reply
Scott,
Thanks for that. Like you've mentioned, of course, I was probably way more sensitive about it than the actual designer would be.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Could you give a link to your design, if you have them on-line somewhere, Scott?
MarkoQuote Reply
@Gude
"I was probably way more sensitive about it than the actual designer would be."
Surprisenly that depends from individual to individual. I would hope other designers like myself, have grown a thick skin when dealing with critique and opinions from others. We really have to in this bizz when you work under an art director and even read things online. Heck even as a Art director you shouldn't just go with your own opinion.
@Marko
I apologize, I can't remember which design(s) I've mentioned. But would be more than happy to ablige If can find my quote…*facepalm* to locate what I was talking about.
ScottQuote Reply
You mentioned you did some researh on wolf heraldics for your own ASoIaF sigil designs. So … are those coats of arms available for viewing anywhere?
MarkoQuote Reply
OK, so please calm down, anyone.
Don't want to give a big rant, so here is the short version:
wolf on wall looks cool (totally "in place"),
so designers made their choice and turned out a great result. Not my initial vision, but who am I to be giving a f+++ about? Same goes for anyone else here.
Please, stop apologising for every thought that you offered not "matching" the current state of affairs. Proper "speculation and discussion" can't take place between people that are all of the same mind from the beginning.
And sorry for any typos / bad language. Hope you get my meaning nevertheless.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Dunkeltroll: one of the points I am trying to make in my posts is connected to this – you couldn't have had an initial vision of the relief wolf, because you weren't expecting any at all. You just have an image of the Stark coat of arms in your head, and we have not seen those yet. On cloth, on shields, etc. And the wolf as the symbol of the house may likely appear in different forms and in different materials, as an ornament here and there. This portal bas-relief is a nice touch. Otherwise I fully agree :)
MarkoQuote Reply
anyone care to translate what the russians have to say about the Stark relief on the wall. I'm curious if anyone had an opinion.
http://7kingdoms.ru/2009/chto-snimali-v-castle-ward/
ScottQuote Reply
Hurray for Babel Fish at Altavista/Yahoo. You can cut and paste it into Babel fish and then work out a reasonable translation (except for proper names, slang and the usual idioms which won't translate. It is essnetially just a discussion of what we said here. A pat on the back for kinnygraham and the others giving us information.
The part about the wolf sigil is tghe beginning of the second paragraph, next to the picture of the wagon with the odd 5th wheel. The literal Babel Fish translation is:
"The symbol of wolf in the original was visible not very well; therefore it was necessary to increase contrast, as the consequence of shadow they became less they were natural. Wolf and [chardrevo?] is above remarkable. Certainly, wolf resembles the cross-breed of kindness and fox faster, but performance impresses. I am convinced that is soon us worth waiting [fanart] such [lyutovolkom?]."
The discussion at the bottom pretty much echos the arguments laid out here, with about the same range of sentiments. One post mentions that the sigil wolf resembls the marten on the coat of arms of the Russian city of Ufa.
I'm fascinated by that odd 5th wheel carriage. Sadly, I shall now spend the rest of my evening digging through the interwebnets trying to figure out what it is and where it was used and why.
mogonsQuote Reply
chardrevo – weirwood, lit. wonder-tree
lyutovolkom – with [such] a direwolf, lit. mad-wolf
MarkoQuote Reply
@ mogons.
I wouldn't swear to it – but was that carriage possibly in 'Van Helsing' ??
kinnygrahamQuote Reply
@Mogons
"The discussion at the bottom pretty much echos the arguments laid out here, with about the same range of sentiments. One post mentions that the sigil wolf resembls the marten on the coat of arms of the Russian city of Ufa."
Ok, so I wasn't the only one. America to Russia. They were the same as me. Impressed with the carving but thought it looked a little off in terms of looking like a wolf. Yes someone else mentions Fox. Fox is a little sleeker in the head and I've translated from their site they agree on.
ScottQuote Reply
http://7kingdoms.ru/wp-content/gallery/casting/robb2.jpg
A russian artist illustrated and silhouetted the wolf carving on the wall for the art. I have a hard time thinking "yep its a wolf" when i see it.
My fiance has included. "It looks like a golden retriever or sheep dog" So we've gathered this:
"wolf/golden retriever/marten/ferret/fox"
Love the feel but the fore part of the wolf looks less wolf like in this. Short snout, small head. Long neck.
ScottQuote Reply