Movieline caught up with the very busy Jamie Campbell Bower for a quick interview where they hit on all his various projects, The Prisoner, New Moon, Harry Potter and, of course, Game of Thrones. Below are the Thrones-related questions, hit the link for the full interview.
You’ve signed onto several book-to-film adaptations. Are you ever curious about how the fandoms are reacting to your casting?
I try to leave that out, just because for as many people that like you, there’s always going to be the same amount of people who hate you. Because we do what we do, we’re subject to our lives being put on display, almost. More and more people will comment on what they think of you. I don’t mind if people are saying nasty things about me behind my back — I just don’t want to know about them.Have you already shot the pilot to Game of Thrones for HBO?
Yeah, just finished.And you’re playing Waymar Royce. What can you tell me about him?
Ohhhh. Not very much.But it already exists as a series of books! You wouldn’t be spoiling anything.
Well, it exists in pilot form for the television company. [Laughs] I don’t want to spill the beans, because they could be like [sing-songy voice], “Uh-uh. You said something bad, you can’t do it.” And I’d be fired!Was it a good experience, at least?
It was a great experience. Very short shoot, but they threw a lot of money at it. Hopefully it’s going to be really good, and hopefully it’ll be greenlit and we’ll go ahead with it. It was great fun and a very strong, rich cast.
Winter Is Coming: Great to hear more positive things about the shoot. Especially nice to hear more good things about the cast. Interesting that a guy that has worked on huge blockbuster films such as the upcoming editions of the Harry Potter and Twilight franchises, would mention how much money they are putting into this pilot. He would definitely have a good feel for what an expensive shoot would look like. HBO is really going all out for this one.
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211 Comments
my first First!
noctemcatQuote Reply
Just read the interview via the westeros twitter. Hilarious seeing that Bower doesn't want to say (little spoiler ahead) he gets killed instantly so that he actually can't say anything about his character.
I'm agreeing with you Winter that especially Bower is saying they're throwing a lot of money into it, and he has only been one day on set. That's got to say something.
KnurkQuote Reply
I'm thinking that "they threw a lot of money" at his scene means the CGI Others. What other way could they spend heavy on the prologue scene?
izakmoQuote Reply
I don't think he'll know how much the CGI will cost, that's more of a post-production question. My guess he's maybe talking about size of the crew, the sets, the props they used etc.
KnurkQuote Reply
Just based on his character in The Prisoner, I'll be glad to see him killed in GoT.
shadallionQuote Reply
Maybe. I think filming a sword fight with a stand-in and being told that the Other would be added later through CGI would impress him more than the price of set (a small camp with a few extras playing wildling corpses), props (just wardrobe and swords, really), or crew size (why would they use an unusually large crew?)
On the other hand, it's possible that the Others are actors in elaborate make-up/prosthetics/wardrobe and that's what he was talking about. This could work if they do it right (creatures from Pan's Labyrinth) not wrong (cheesy lumpy faced vampires in Buffy the Vampire Slayer).
http://www.calendarlive.com/media/photo/2006-12/27104068.jpg
izakmoQuote Reply
Wow, when did Firsties invade this board? Lame.
ElisabethQuote Reply
Eh, he shouldn't be afraid that HBO will fire him. It's not like we'll ever see his character again after the pilot :P
RinsoQuote Reply
Wise of him not to burn bridges with HBO.
boQuote Reply
http://airlockalpha.com/feature/6894/commentary-hbo-should-find-gold-with-game-of-thrones.html
"All in all, "Game of Thrones" ranks as one of 2010's top projects to follow. It's truly an exciting time for fantasy fans — novels of the highest caliber may be heading to the small screen on a weekly basis, shepherded by a network with an impressive record for quality programming. Like the knights of Westeros, HBO should ride high."
ninepennyQuote Reply
@Elisabeth
If you have a good forum/blog the firsties will come, it's a proven fact.
MikeQuote Reply
@Elisabeth.
Wow, you're so cool. Thank you for showing us the light on this, your very first post.
shadallionQuote Reply
I just had a weird thought, but what if HBO decided to keep Waymar Royce around? I know GRRM is working closely with HBO but I'm sure they have the power to change things, especially if fans will have a positive reaction. From what I know about this Bower guy he's an up-and-comer who will probably rate well with the ladies. Why give someone like that a 2-bit part? Again, probably not the case, but the thought just struck me suddenly.
BrianQuote Reply
I have posted before, but couldn't resist this one. I've noticed that the regulars jump at the chance, also, and everyone agrees they're cool beans. Sorry if I let you down.
noctemcatQuote Reply
They can keep him around… as a wight. :)
CrystalQuote Reply
Interestingly, in the leaked script, they don't show what happens to Will or Waymar – only that the Others descend. So technically he could escape.
Would be cooler to see him as a wight though. What the hell else would they do with him? Not sure The Further Adventures of Ser Waymar Royce would be on anyone's docket.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
Hah, yeah, I didn't say I wanted to see him survive. But I could see it as an HBO tweak.
BrianQuote Reply
Anyone else watching the Prisoner remake? Not sure what to think about Bower in that. His character hasn't done much yet, but Ian McKellen is brilliant (as expected)
JillianQuote Reply
See, now he'd have earned all sort of cred with me if he had said "My character has a funadmental part to play in establishing the tone of the series. He's really quite important." As that would not only set his scene up perfectly, but would also be true.
Critical GeekQuote Reply
Just wanted to point out that it's not like they shut JCB in a box on the way to the set or anything. He's just as capable as us (perhaps moreso?) to form an opinion about how much HBO is spending without judging from his scene alone. He could just be going from his own paycheck and the faces he saw at the reading, too, but my guess is that his agent may have mentioned the budget when he told him about the role.
Not to say that the Others won't have CGI elements, just that we can't judge that solely from JCB mentioning a large budget.
Nice pokerface on JCB, too.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
"I'm thinking that "they threw a lot of money" at his scene means the CGI Others."
They're using CGI for Others? WHY?! That is completely unnecessary!
DemersonQuote Reply
Demerson, it's just a popular bit of speculation. There aren't even any rumors about it.
I'm personally very pro CGI backgrounds and extremely against pure CGI characters.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
The fact that they're using real puppies is encouraging. If any CGI is used for the Others, I'd want it to be an enhancement of a flesh-and-blood actor
I'd rather have freaky-looking actors.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
PG beat me to it.
Making a judgment on a rumor is…echo chamberish. Next thing you'll be complaining that R+L=J is cliche. :)
/duck
Critical GeekQuote Reply
@shadillion: not my first post. Been at this blog longer than you have, most likely, though I stopped paying close attention to the comments after the casting hoorah. I am pretty cool, though.
ElisabethQuote Reply
You know, after reading his answers again, I've got to give him mad props for the answers he did give. So yeah, he's earned whatever credit I was gonna give him from that first post.
Critical GeekQuote Reply
Critical Geek,
My favorite bit:
"Hopefully it’s going to be really good, and hopefully it’ll be greenlit and we’ll go ahead with it."
Unless you want to take this as a nod to the idea of bringing him back as a wight or him taking on Renly or Loras if the series is picked up, I think they picked the right guy for Royce. With his sense of humor, he'll play mum all the way to the premier of the first episode.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@ Elisabeth: You knock the "firsties" (which every popular blog has), but you have no problem stooping to the "I've been on this blog longer than you?" thing? To quote you, "lame".
PS People have been saying "first" on this blog for quite a while now. Where have you been?
LexQuote Reply
A quick note on casting speculation for the first season.
As we've no doubt all heard, the great Edward Woodward (my main choice for Maester Aeomon) has passed on. He was a great actor, and I felt it may be worth remembering him here, though his only connection to the production was wishful thinking by myself and a few other posters.
Additionally, a big fan favorite for several different characters, Ray Stevenson has just joined the cast for Thor. Don't know what their shooting schedule is like, or if this will affect anything.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
As people have said, nice poker face, Bower :) Glad he liked the shoot. Others: I'd like to have real actors, though CGI enhanced as necessary.
MarkoQuote Reply
@Paul
Yeah, that's pretty much my stance as well.
Making full blown CGI Others would, imo, be a waste of time and money. Real actors with professional makeup and costumes will always look better than digital counterparts.
DemersonQuote Reply
Taking a look at Ray Stevenson's entry on IMDB, I see that he's in listed as an actor on Rome, which is "under development". Any subscriber cares to check that out?
amir mishaliQuote Reply
amir…
I messed up the link but Ray Stevenson mentioned that a Rome movie is in the works.
RobuQuote Reply
Yes, it's a Rome movie. I believe it was announced earlier this year. It took some doing, but they managed to get it together.
BrudeQuote Reply
Thanks! That is very cool news. Do you know anything more about it? Who's going to be directing etc.
amir mishaliQuote Reply
I think the casting folks and David and Dan did a clever thing in casting JCB and not showing him being killed off. Means that he'll hopefully draw in lots of the Twilight fanbase, and by leaving it hanging as to whether or not he's dead (although we know he is), they'll stick around waiting for him to come back and hopefully get drawn into the story regardless.
Love the fact that they went with a Twilight cast member as we suggested.
Actually, that'd be an interesting discussion topic. How many instances can we think of so far where we fans have suggested something or someone, and it's actually happened?
SilverstarQuote Reply
At least part if it would likely be coincidence or parallel thinking, not to mention obvious best choices like Peter Dinklage. But still: it's nice to know the producers think along the same lines as the fans.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Yeah, in some cases, that's probably true, but then you've got instances like the map overview/crow intro that was detailed in the pilot script, which is almost exactly something that was suggested by someone over on Westeros.
It'd be interesting to figure out just how often there's been cases like that, so we can figure out either if they are actually taking notice of the fans, or (just as interestingly) if there is a lot of parallel thinking going on, and therefore we can feel confident that they are sharing a lot of our thoughts on the show.
Or, indeed, if there isn't that much going on at all, and we're overstating it.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Dinklage and Bean were the only real fan favorites (and I mean top-of-the-fantasy-cast-list) people who were cast.
They were also the first two announced. It was like Christmas come early for many.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
A guess only D&D can answer to that. We know they stick their noses into fanpages now and again, and are open to suggestions. But the possibility of an adaptation might well have been discussed among fans even before HBO optioned for it, and D&D might have read some of it a long while ago, bluring the line between their own ideas and what they picked up elsewhere.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Add: We highly suspect the voice of the narrated ASoIaF (e-books were they?) was cast as Grand Maester Pycelle, and then his scene was dropped because of a schedule conflict, so Pycelle was dropped from the pilot. Almost everyone had him on the wish-list (I can't remember his name offhand) as Pycelle too.
About Yea HighQuote Reply
I just had a look through the casting polls to see which actors were suggested by fans for the roles (i just looked at the first post with the lists, not through all the comments).
The ones that were suggested and cast in those roles are Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister, Sean Bean as Ned Stark, Jennifer Ehle as Catelyn Stark, Jason Mamoa as Khal Drogo and Ian McNeice as Illyrio Mopatis (in fact, Ian McNeice was the only suggestion)
Funnily enough, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was suggested as both Ned Stark and Theon Greyjoy, Lena Headey as Catelyn Stark, Jamie Campbell Bower as Joffrey Baratheon, Harry Lloyd as both Jon Snow and Robb Stark, and Rory McCann as Robert Baratheon.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Speaking of them casting polls and casting lists…hrm…Gonna see what I can do to get them updated for season 1 cast suggestions, now that we're out of real news….
Critical GeekQuote Reply
I'm firmly in the no-CGI-camp as well (shudders at the thought of direwolves like the werewolf in HP3). There's a big difference between interacting with a blue screen and interacting with something *living* and it's the latter that always seems more real. Since GoT's got the realism down pat, I don't want to be drawn out of the story by badly drawn wolves :)
I'm still a wee bit sorry that Ray Stevenson wasn't cast in this (with a small voice: as the Hound) but I understand the fear of typecasting – and I can forgive almost anything if we get Rome: The Movie. (OT: Is the Prisoner any good?)
Flower AdamsQuote Reply
Poor Elisabeth. You are having no luck with your posts are you? Always getting a quick retort – if that's the correct word – to your posts.
Thinking there must be something to my theory the other day.
But well, to echo others, there has been "first"s going around for quite some time now. And by some of the most prominent posters here and, I'm guessing, on Westeros. (Seems to be the same crowd more or less… Shocker… ;))
Did you take a sabbatical from the blog or something then? Seeing as you've missed it before?
Anyway, seems like a harmless thing to me. Not so lame, not so serious either. It's just a joke E. I would never presume to suggest you lighten up or anything like that.
Only saying that it's in my opinion just a tiny harmless insider joke and I hope you won't take any offence in those little things.
Change of subject.
Love the lightness in his tone when asked about his character… haha!
Tricking the fans and showing the true color of the show – the unexpected"ness" of the whole series.
It's great tactics that – hope he really goes all the way with his acting chops in PR for the show as someone mentioned here above, which I can't find right now… It's a lovely, lovely setup! *grins maliciously*
My 2/10 cents…
–Livvey
LivveyQuote Reply
Don't know if anyone mentioned this before but one reason to cast an up and comer like Bower then kill him off is for the shock value. A way to get the audience use to the idea that any character( or actor for that matter) is fair game in this series
HouseUmberQuote Reply
Too bad blogs miss the geeky options message-boards have, like avatars and profiles. I really would like to have the option to reread all posts by some of the "substantional" folks here – as well as some statistics (member since x.x.x, total # of posts)… ;-)
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
I love the way Bower seems to suggest he has some interest in the on-going project. That's pretty funny and a good indication that the writers and producers will enjoy screwing around with the viewers' heads as much as GRRM enjoys screwing around with the readers'.
brhodesQuote Reply
Yeah, the "hopefully it'll be greenlit and we'll go ahead with it" is pretty funny. Makes it sound like if it's greenlit, he'll have plenty more filming to do.
I'm liking JCB.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Or he is just mixing things up and thinks he is going to return as a wight, vampire or something else. I wonder if he did read the books…
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
@HouseUmber
Yup, especially since it'll show well into while his Twilight fame peaks. The only problem is that episode one deaths just aren't shocking for tv series. Even Stargate: Universe had one.
SPOILERIFICNESS
Honestly, I think Lady's death will have more shock value.
/END SPOILERIFICNESS
In fact, the best way to make that one have any shock value at all is to do exactly what he's doing right now: giving every indication during interviews that he's going to be busy when Game of Thrones starts filming, and for him to show up at any media blitzes that involve the cast until after the first show airs.
Critical GeekQuote Reply
why in the heavens would the others be CGI? it's dark, they're cloaked, they don't fight just draw in around the brothers. That would be criminal to waste budget on that. Might be they do some compositing to enhance the supernatural but CGI? god no. I'd rather they make CGI rocks that kick up on the kings road than cgi characters (that was a joke).
also, he could have seen their sets at paint hall during the read thru. he could have been impressed with the snow in his own scene. He might have seen the extensive training while learning to ride his horse. he could have had a dozen conversations with cast and crew while being called a see you next tuesday. any of these things may have lead him to the observation that HBO were going all out for the pilot. I doubt CGI others was the red herring.
FIRST?
ha. I'm funny.
*giant fire breathing crickets*
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
The only problem with it will be those of his fans who get all excited about him being in the show, and so go and find out what his role will be by checking out various fansites, only to discover that he dies really quickly. Lots of Bean fans did the same thing, and were disappointed to discover he dies in Season One.
Would have been better if they could have kept the name of his character under wraps a bit, perhaps.
SilverstarQuote Reply
@Critical Geek
SPOILERIFICNESS
I know that the death of Lady was the first big shock of the book for me I had to reread that part a few times to make sure I had read it right.
/END SPOILERIFICNESS
LanceTidwellTCQuote Reply
Hello All. . . long time lurker yada yada. Anyway, on the Crow intro, isn't that an awful lot like the intro for Deadwood? Just substitute a horse for a crow and the daily goings-on of the town for places in Westeros. I like the idea of the crow intro very much, but it just seems too similar, and both shows airing on HBO no less.
DJQuote Reply
@Geek & Lance
**SPOILZORZ
Lady was first big shot. Really? Not "The things I do for love." Lady's demise was indeed surprising, but more because of how understated that scene was. The Bran scene was staged in a really tense way, and right when you thought everything was safe and sound, well… you know…
?
The only way Bran's fall wasn't the first big shock to any reader would be if somebody spoiled it for them beforehand. That was one of the all time most shocking, well-paced, fuck with your head moments in all of fantasy literature for me. It sort of rewrote the rules on what was out of bounds for me. Never saw it coming.
That was strictly why I made the suggestion that D&D be very sensitive to how much/little we discover about Jaime before that moment. If they can convince us he might be one of the good guys at that pivotal moment, they will have done their job.
There is a passage where Bran (and another with Jon) sees Jaime as the very definition of what a real knight should be like. They HAVE TO use that perception to full advantage for the window scene to work on the small screen.
*END SPOILZORZ*
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
@About Yea High
The narrator for the aSoIaF audiobooks is Roy Dotrice. And for those who haven't listened to the books – he does a fantastic job with them. Was a shame he was unable to do the 4th book though (can't remember who was used for that one, but Dotrice was sorely missed).
I think he'd be a fine Pycelle.
meggyoQuote Reply
I didn't mean to sound all hostile, my apologies! Internet culture sometimes fascinates and baffles me. From now on I will accept your firsties as just another meme. I've been distancing myself from reading the speculation and discussion because in my mind, the less I think about the show, the faster it will get here. I'm sorry for being a bitch. Hooray for Game of Thrones!
ElisabethQuote Reply
About Yea High,
I'd put Roy Dotrice as Pycelle in the "speculation" camp. GRRM called the actor a "world class thespian," but I fully reject a claim put out by some that that could only be speaking of Dotrice. People want him in there, but there's been no proof. I'm still of the opinion that the actor they're talking about is Jim Broadbent. He's right for the role and Nina Gold has cast him in so many shows over the years I fully expect him to show up in Game of Thrones. Of course, that's just speculation, too.
HouseUmber,
It was suggested that Royce be played by someone who folks who haven't read the books could believe might be a hero. The Prologue is written very similar to a familiar scene in modern cop shows where the young hotshot is bringing new methods that the old guard doesn't understand. (In turn lifted from Sherlock Holmes?) The viewers could easily believe that Royce is going to be a major player up until the point where he got killed. That's why lots of us were excited by JCB being cast. He's kind of perfect in that way.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Oh, and as far as casting that fans suggested becoming reality, Ian McNeice was one of the folks whose agent I contacted about Ilyrio Mopatis.
I doubt someone who was originally on an HBO show needed fans to tell his agent about an upcoming project that needed an overweight actor. Still, it goes to the "thinking along the same lines" track that Dunkeltroll mentioned.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@ Paul and Ryan
I wasn't advocating CGI Others, I just think that's the most likely explanation.
Bower says, "Very short shoot, but they threw a lot of money at it."
He's apparently commenting on the money spent just on his short scene. Not overall budget, big name actors who don't appear in his scene, paint hall sets unrelated to his scene, or comments from cast and crew about overall production cost.
He could be talking about his paycheck and fake snow, but I doubt it.
I just can't think of what they could have thrown money at in that scene except the Others, and CGI seems the most expensive option. I don't want (or expect) Jar Jar Binks Others. But I'm guessing there will be CGI enhancements to make the Others seem more otherworldly.
This is all just speculation for the sake of speculation, of course.
izakmoQuote Reply
Jim Broadbent would be great for Pycelle! Something about that guy's chin just screams sycophant.
izakmoQuote Reply
"Speaking of them casting polls and casting lists…hrm…Gonna see what I can do to get them updated for season 1 cast suggestions, now that we're out of real news…."
Yes !
casting lists. Leaving the future Ros´es of GOT aside, who, in the canonical text, has speaking lines in Season one..if R'hllor be willing, it is greenlighted?
For which of them has actors been suggested?
(Jimmy Nail for Yoren!)
We must take precautions against going WiC cold turkey when everything moves into post-production,and if the powers that be read our suggestions, it is now we may have any influence, so I see a lot of time gainfully misspent in the next months to come.
The poster formerly known as
Thoros of Myr
"My name is Arya Stark
You killed my family
Don´t bother with any preparations."
prometevsbergQuote Reply
Does anyone remember if JCB said he read the books, or at least GoT? Maybe he only said that he didn't want to 'spill the beans' because he didn't realize that the prologue is almost the same as in the books (meaning he just dies)?
nikkiQuote Reply
Thoros, I concur. We need to fill the long painful months ahead with something. Someone must have generated a list of anticipated Season 1 speaking roles in this blog somewhere. If not, that is a task that must be undertaken. Invertabrae seems like the perfect one for the job…
DerekQuote Reply
OH and Esme Bianco must return as Melisandre. I must go add my 2 cents in the casting polls…
nikkiQuote Reply
Folks, seriously.
Anything we know, JCB could know. He's not some weird idiot savant that can only comprehend what he sees in his script.
Izakmo, he was at a table read with almost all the other actors. He might have judged the amount being spent by the quality of the catering. I just don't see a CGI Other being the only explanation. Again, the fact that I *really* don't want CGI others will help me think of alternate examples.
Nikki, also I'm guessing that JCB would be told about his commitment when getting the job. I'd think that'd be part of his contract negotiation. He strikes me as being a funny coy person, operating out of respect for the joke rather than ignorance.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Nikki,
I agree 100% about Esmé.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Could just be that the overall quality of everything he saw pointed towards a lot of money being spent on the production. IIRC, for example, Rimshot, who has been an extra in a lot of things, commented that the costumes being used in AGoT were the best ones he'd ever seen.
If someone like JCB noticed the high quality of the costumes, the sets, the actors, and so on, it wouldn't be that strange for him to extrapolate from that that HBO were pouring a lot of money into the show.
SilverstarQuote Reply
I would love Esmé as Melisandre, but sadly, unless there is a major reworking of the canonical text, that would be for the second season, R'hllor be willing, there being one..
So for now, season one should leave enough characters looking for an actor..
A breakdown by locales, POV or Households?
The poster formerly known as
Thoros of Myr
prometevsbergQuote Reply
Silverstar,
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking.
I think Izakmo could have point that JCB threw "Very short shoot" and "but they threw a lot of money at it" in the same sentence could be indicating that the "short shoot" he refers to are his specific scenes, and that those are the scenes in which he saw the money being spent.
I'd point out, though, that a CGI Other would be post-production, which (might) have lead him to say, "Very short shoot, but they're going to throw a lot of money at it."
Again, this is a case in my opinion of reading too much into things.
All that we really know from the statement is that he thought the shoot (his scenes? the entire shoot?) was short, and he thought that they threw a lot of money at it.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
While the red witch will be an important casting for the second season, I can think of no more important casting for ACOK than…….Hot Pie!!
AbrahamQuote Reply
Abraham, nice one. Hot Pie is a crucial and important role to fill!
@ Paul, now that you point it out, I do agree that JCB was just being coy, while still being faithful to HBO.
I'm really excited to see who they will find to play Gendry! They have done a superb job finding nice looking boys so far… Also Lollys and Tanda will be funny. so many more roles…
nikkiQuote Reply
Is Ian McShane considered a "fan favorite" for the Old Bear? If not, he should be.
izakmoQuote Reply
Sure, the "FIRST!" thing might seem a little childish… but it also illustrates the fact that the blog is busy and popular enough that people need to race to be the first one to comment. For that reason, I think it's cool.
LexQuote Reply
You guys are hilarious. Esme is attractive, but in no way is she professionally qualified for an important, reoccuring role like Melisandre on a major HBO show.
shadallionQuote Reply
@Izakmo
I am right with you for the Old Bear.
The rabbitQuote Reply
Izakmo, I'm with you and the rabbit.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@ shadallion
a lot of people with important, recurring roles on HBO shows weren't considered "professionally qualified"
I'm not saying they should her the role if she's not a great actor, I just think she would be a good fit.
nikkiQuote Reply
Izakmo, I think Ian McShane is a "fan favorite" for every male role of a "certain age"…Brynden Tully, Balon Greyjoy, Qhorin Halfhand, Doran Martell, Tywin Lannister, and of course, Jeor Mormont. I think people would even settle for seeing him play Lollys if meant getting him into the series.
gofalconsQuote Reply
Shadallion,
To put this in perspective, we're fans of Esmé making posts on a board talking about casting for a second season of a show that is still a pilot at this point.
The chances of any of this affecting the casting of Melisandre are pretty slim.
That said, regardless of her professional credits, the cast and crew have met her and know what it's like to work with her.
To speak to the more cynical side of things, I'm guessing the reason you accept the fact that Esmé was cast in the pilot was her willingness to put herself out there in ways that a more "professional" actress wouldn't. Correct?
*SPOILERS*
Depending on how graphic they are with Melisandre giving birth to the shadows, Esmé may be the right choice again.
*SPOILERS*
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Gofalcons,
Well said. It's more of a case of, "How can we get Ian McShane in this?" rather than "Who can we get to play _______?"
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Also, if I didn't make it clear above, I meant that the folks involved with the show will know both Esmé's abilities and what it's like to work with her.
All *we* know about her is that she studied acting and has been in some movies. They'll be much more suited to gauge her ability than us.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
broadbent, mcshane and Brian cox are must haves, as pycelle, davos/blackfish and mormont, respectively.
and I think esme would agree when I say, let's see her performance before we go and cast her for another role!
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Re: Brian Cox
Brian Cox is rumored to be in casting talks for the Hobbit films (playing one of the dwarves).
If this is true, he will be busy filming that for all of 2010.
LexQuote Reply
However, I think Brian Blessed would also make a great Old Bear.
LexQuote Reply
What's-his-who actor said: Well, it exists in pilot form for the television company. [Laughs] I don’t want to spill the beans, because they could be like [sing-songy voice]….
SPILL THE BEANS?
Could it be that SEAN BEAN or MR BEAN is in this PILOT…?
LAWLZ
DaveyQuote Reply
Re: Beans
Well, as for your "spilling the beans" theory, we already thought of that a long time ago with GRRM used the same phrase.
Yes, Sean Bean IS in the pilot. As for Mr. Bean (Rowan Atkinson), I think he'd make a great Littlefinger (a la Blackadder II) and GRRM said he can picture him as Varys.
LexQuote Reply
I have a hard time seeing McShane as a potential Davos, but that's likely just because Davos is the polar opposite of Swearengen.
He'd make a brilliant Blackfish, but I think the role is too small.
In any case, it looks like he's booked up at the moment with some show called "Pillars of the Earth". Pity.
izakmoQuote Reply
Hi all, this is my first post. This is also a "test" post to make sure everything functions properly from my work computer…
Great message board though, now that I'm half way through AFFC, I think I can start posting here without risking too many major spoilers.
MorganQuote Reply
Sadly, the whole casting discussion (better: making suggestions) is not my cup of tea, simply because when I think about it, I stay too close to the roles actors already played in the past. Guess this is where typecasting comes from. Still, I would enjoy following it – so get going!
Regarding Esme or JCB being possibly recast in other roles: sadly, we won't be able to make any educated statements judging from their performances in the pilot – they will be both in it for about 5 minutes tops. Also, since we will most likely not see these before the rest of season 1 finishes production, it is up to the casting staff to give them a second go (or not). And if Esme should blow them away playing a whore, why recast her as a priestess? There are more than enough loose women in Kings Landing, or the books in general…
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Though I can't really picture McShane with a bald head and blonde facial hair, I think at this point the role of Tywin would be best suited to him. He'd be a prominent guest star who'd appear in 2-3 episodes over the first two seasons, and then most of season 3. I think that's the most screen time he'd get of all the potential roles suggested for him (I personally can't see him as Davos, he has too strong a personality/presence in my opinion).
MorganQuote Reply
Ian McShane as Roose Bolton? It's not a huge role but Bolton's appearances are concentrated into several chapters of Books 1, 2 and 3 and it looks like he'll be back in Season 4/Book 5, and he is of course an important character with a big impact on the story. We know he's good at playing cold and callous.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Actually, now I think about it, he could be a good Balon Greyjoy as well, although I still like the idea of Keith Allen for that (more for his acting ability than the stunt casting of him being Alfie Allen's real-life father as well).
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
I'd be OK with McShane as Bolton, though I suspect an actor of his caliber would want more speaking lines… plus a lot of people would suspect that he's a villain (in addition to being creepy), which could ruin some of the shock value of the red wedding… at least with Tywin, it's pretty obvious from the start he's not on the good guys' side.
MorganQuote Reply
@Invertebrae,
Unlike the book, or a movie, people expect "things to happen" in the first episode of a tv series that shape the "main characters" of the rest of the season. Nobody knows who the recurring characters are until they start recurring. Bran's scene is only shocking because it involves a kid. Waymar's scene is only shocking because it involves a relatively big name actor (which is the only way to translate that shock from book to screen). The both of them together is what sets the series apart, demonstrating that neither actor heft nor youth are plot armor vs this series.
Lady's death is the first for a now reoccuring character (mycah is just your standard dead guest star), and shows that not even the "magic" bits of the series have plot armor. That's what got me into series: no one and nothing was safe, but on tv that theme takes more than just one episode to establish.
Critical GeekQuote Reply
it's pretty obvious from the start he's not on the good guys' side
There's a GOOD side?!?! Oh my!!! I'll have to read the books with this new point of view!!
I always thought there was no good or bad but just the lucky ones and the miserables… or rather the Ones that Play the Game of Thrones, or die.
LAWLZ
DaveyQuote Reply
Sorry, poor choice of words. Of course there's no "good" and "bad" side, but I got a good sense from his first scene in the book that Tywin was going to be… let's say, unlikeable (as a person, not a character).
MorganQuote Reply
@Marko
A little football post.
HOP HOP HOP
I have told you everything would be all right!
Čestitam!
The rabbitQuote Reply
Davey, You stinking crotch-goblin,
Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Of course there's a good side. It's just I think someone was confused that Tywin was not on it. Tywin is a good guy: he isn't into whores for himself or for his youngest son; he was faithful to his wife and when she died he did not remarry. These are important moral attributes. He pushed his children (perhaps too much) to be the best. The result is, they are the best. Jaime is a swordmaster beyond compare, Cersei is the queen of all the realm, and Tyrion knows more about dragons than a lot of people, and he's really cool albeit very tiny.
Also the Lannisters' realm is very stable, rich, fruitful and happy, and they never stabbed anyone in the back, except for when the Lannisters turned their backs on the Targaryens at the end.. but that was a good thing no? And I guess when Jaime betrayed his king, but for the best, in't it? And well, Cersei has a personality disorder… so you can't blame her. But um beyond that they are good people. I guess except for the part where Tyrion killed his dad. But it was self-defence, in't it?
MiddletonQuote Reply
Ryan,
I think I speak for everyone in the "It would be cool to see Esmé as Melisandre" camp when I say this is contingent on the folks running the show thinking she's capable of doing it.
We're just hoping it'll happen, not wanting it to happen against all logic.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Marty,
You silly old goose, if there is a good and bad side, the Lannisters, and at least Tywin, is definitely on the BAD side exactly for the reasons you argue are for the GOOD side. And like Morgan said, Tywin is very much UNLIKEABLE. I for one DON'T like him, he's ugly and old, and more's the point, mean and cold. And he probably smells like old guy… you know that smell… moth balls, old man breath, bad teeth, too old to shower. old.
DaveyQuote Reply
Thank you, The Rabbit! An unbelievable, amazing win! Slovenia at the WC!
MarkoQuote Reply
I'll say it again–Esmé's part will replace the part of Brienne during Brienne's only important part in the role–of the journey with Jaime to King's Landing.
Brienne's part is completely marginal otherwise. Therefore they will write her out and only fill in the parts that are needed with secondary characters. Even the part where the young Baratheon gets killed doesn't not need her there, not as witness or as anything else. The camera will be there, that is enough of a POV. IMHO
FünkeQuote Reply
Haha. I get it. Hazing the newbies. I hid during freshman week, please don't hurt me.
MorganQuote Reply
@Geek & Lance & invertebrae
about the shocking value of
"what I do for love" VS Lady's death
I actually was more shocked (as in surprised) by the second, although I still agree the the first is absolutely brilliant and maybe the best turning point I've ever read. As a cliff hanger, it will be awesome! :D
Reason why I was more surprised by the second (also read it several times) is that I vaguely expected all pups to survive for some magical purpose later in the story (also brilliant writing to kill it of) whereas for the "what I do for love" scene I was kind of prepared due to some idiot who told me the start of the book was really unexpected and groundbreaking.
StuQuote Reply
Davey, You moldy rogue, you scurvy trollmonger,
No, I don't know that smell of old people. Obviously, you are old. Really old. And stupid. And a homosexuelle. And stupid, and old.
I have spoken.
MiddletonQuote Reply
@Fünke:
if WE (the fans) start to think about which "marginal parts" can be written out, where will it take us? Lets see:
- Robert learns likes the northern climate, and declared Winterfell to be his new residency. Ned gets act as his Hand and chamberlain, since he already knows how to run the place. So no one has to go to Kings Landing, and everything that happens there will instead take place at Winterfell. Most of the other locations receive similar treatments, cutting the budget needed to run the show in half.
- The direwolfs being direwolfs is completely excessive; some regular dogs will do. In fact, I own a lovely and very photogenic Golden Retriever, who would like to play Ghost. He is highly qualified, since he likes to swim while it's freezing, and his fur is quite pale to go with the theme. His Winterfell (winter coat) is also very thick and fluffy.
- That freakingly high wall can be ersetzt (you get this, English speeking fellows?) by some remains of the former inner-German border. I guess there are a number of watchtowers left in some outdoor musuems, which can easily be redecorated. Also, it kind of served the same purpose than the one in the books. The Limes or Hadrian's Wall are other good choices… ;-)
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Dunke,
I don't see your point. Maybe instead say why Brienne needs to be in the show.
FünkeQuote Reply
As others pointed out before: Brienne is a new take on the "tough girl"-kind of character, something that would make the show stand out.
And also, my personal guess is that we have not read the last words about her. She will be present at some major turning point, somewhere in the future (striking dowm one of Danys dragons or something like that).
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Is that it? I think you can do better than that.
FünkeQuote Reply
On second thought, killing a dragon would turn her into Éowyn, only uglier… but GRRM will let her do something remarkable, I'm sure.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
By the way ersatz is a common english-ified word, so no worries there. :)
FünkeQuote Reply
Why on earth am I to think of a better reason NOT to write her out? To do so would be far-fetched in the first place!
But still, I got a reason for you: she embodies the "true knight" Jamie once wanted to be (or not, whatever), thus being the perfect mirror to watch himself in. You can't replace her with anyone else without losing an important impact on Jamies development.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
I knew about "Ersatz", but "ersetzt" is a little off… but I played on that, sure.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Brienne is a major POV character in AFFC and she will be again in ADWD. She isn't just the escort of Jaime to King's Landing, as Fünke seems to believe. She's extremely important in the entire turn which Jaime's character takes away from Cersei and more towards his honor, as tarnished as he finds it. As Dunkeltroll points out, she is the perfect mirror for him.
Does she really die in the final scene for her in AFFC, when she is apparently hanged? I seriouusly doubt it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jaime and Brienne end up together… yes, that kind of together. Nor would I be surprised if Brienne ends up the nemesis of Melisandre. I suspect that she'll also, at some point, find Tyrion since she has Pod with her. It's also possible that she ends up rescuing Sansa from Littlefinger's grasp. The possibilities are wide open for Brienne in ADWD and the following books. She's a major character in the last published book, and certain to be even more pivotal as the books progress.
mogonsQuote Reply
And my vote goes for Brian Cox for Jeor Mormont, the Old Bear. Picture him in his role as Wallace's uncle in Braveheart. Then again, like McShane, he's great for any number of the older roles such as Craster.
mogonsQuote Reply
Agains cutting off imortant characters, locations and props! We don't want GoT to look like this!
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
Major SORRY for all those typos in the last few posts. It's getting late, and the beer takes its toll (guess I'm a Tolltroll now).
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
I wouldn't be crushed if they wrote Brienne out of the show entirely either. If it was just some Winterfell knight escorting Jaime back to King's Landing, and then they're captured by the Brave Companions, I honestly don't think it would damage the story at all.
We need to realize that it's pretty far-fetched to think this show can be done scene-for-scene from the books. Some plotlines will need to be left to the readers, otherwise we'll go multiple episodes between scenes of truly key characters.
shadallionQuote Reply
Re-reading AFFC right now, so this post is full of spoilers of a sort– and just recognized that Brienne is added to the list of scarred/deformed characters GRRM creates– has anyone ever noticed this list?? Tyrion, The Hound, Loras, Brienne, Jaime. I started wondering if these were going to be the beginning of a kind of mythical Kingsguard (minus Tyrion)– all scarred/burnt/deformed in some way! :) Hmmmmm…..
Brienne, I think, will serve some major function as the story continues– I highly doubt she's dead yet. Same goes for the Hound. In AFFC, she's the obvious "glue"– stumbling in to clues that I think will be important later. Plus, if Martin thinks she really is central, than I'm sure he'll let the writers know. Kind of Rowling-esque.
StephenQuote Reply
Looks like that's a wrap
http://juliasmexicocity.typepad.com/julias_mexico_city/2009/11/dusty-wrap.html
JillianQuote Reply
Hmmm… "truly key characters"? What has GRRM been doing the past few years: filling pages with "can-be-droped" plotlines? I don't think so. Sure, we will not get a scene-for-scene, but Brienne? Rather drop some of the highly-unrelated-to-anything-else stuff happening in Dorne in AFfC, for instance. There should be a way to tell the outcome of those stories in a few minutes, if need be.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
I have a theory that I once elucidated over at westeros.org about how some of the various POV character are destined to become sort of paragons or embodiments of The Seven, and I think Brienne is one of those characters, probably The Maid (though possibly the Warrior, odd since she's, well, a she). I think Arya is the Stranger, Sansa will become The Crone, Dany is already The Mother (her people chant "Mother, Mother" wherever she goes and of course she's the Mother of Dragons). Jon the Warrior, Jaime the Father and I think Tyrion will probably be The Smith. If I am right about that, then Brienne will need to remain in the show.
To what end, I don't know. It may be something that is never made explicit in the story, but I think it's a real thread if you look at it carefully.
In each case, each character seems to represent a different aspect of the Seven when we first meet them. Arya, Sansa and Dany are all maids, Brienne is a warrior (though she is also called The Maid of Tarth…a hint, perhaps), Tyrion is a stranger, and so is Jon, while Jaime starts as a warrior.
Anyway, that's my little pet theory. We'll see if it pans out.
BrudeQuote Reply
I agree– I felt like everything in Dorne was to show us 1) what Doran really wants (revenge! surprise!), and that Quentyn has sailed to Daenerys. I also felt like most everything in the Iron Islands was to show us that Victarion was going to sail to Daenerys, and that he didn't like Euron. I'm still not convinced that couldn't be shrunk. I think Brienne could be shrunk some in AFFC, but I also think, as I said before, that she's giving us the "glue" that's going to hold other things together later on. Who knows? I don't think you could really cut her, but you might be able to shrink her part some. Could you basically shrink/almost remove Sam's voyage, Arya's training, and Sansa's few chapters too? I dunno. Then you're talking about a book half the size.
Comparatively, yes, I'd say Jaime and Cersei are more obviously necessary to the plot in AFFC, so who's to say?
I think the greatest "space savings" will come from making visual what Martin spends many pages describing– halls, banners, meals, etc. Of course, battles will probably take longer.
StephenQuote Reply
Very interesting about Brienne.
Here's my take.
1. Almost all the points that makes Brienne important are speculative, ie., that she will important later on, that she isn't dead, that GRRM has something up his sleeve…. HMMMM… And the crazy theories are …. well.. fanboy-esque
2. You guys failed to point why she has been in anyway crucial to the plot (from what I read here so far) and it's evident she is not a key character (to my own reading).
The only reason to keep her that you pointed out is that she is a device that changes Jaime on the trip to King's Landing. That can easily be re-written.
The reasons for me that she is of any value to the show are 2:
1. Might make the show have a certain chemistry the director is looking for.
2. I find the two reason she's of any use to the plot are how one person pointed out, changed Jaime, but that can easily be changed since it's more about Jaime's own history unravelling, about who he used to be. The second plot reason is Brienne as witness to the death of Renly. But the story so far never follows up on that, and now she's dead. She should have been blamed for Renly's death and hanged. That can be easily re-written. The death of Renly being caused by Melisandre was something that GRRM reconsidered later on, IMO, because Melisandre is the perfect prophet and weapon against The Others, and she is perfectly situated for the upcoming fight. The death of Renly says more about Stannis' character (to kill your own brother).
Finally I have to say that the last book is Brienne-heavy, but it's a sad story, and hopefully IMO that's the last I hear from her. I might be wrong, but I was glad when she died. The hound is more up in the air, obviously.
I thought FEAST was a way of getting rid of loose ends as GRRM said, Brienne being an obvious loose end.
FünkeQuote Reply
I loved the scenes in Dorne by the way… Very excellent contrast and exciting to know it's part of Westeros. Part of the deal of the series is we the readers should know all of Westeros by the time it's over. And the scenes in Dorne make excellent entertainment, so it can't go.
FünkeQuote Reply
A second read of AFfC really gave me a much deeper appreciation of the Dorne scenes.
Brienne was still pretty much a waste. It was well written, but nothing happened of consequence with her!
shadallionQuote Reply
There is a good reason to keep Brienne in the story, namely that whilst there are prominent female characters like Cersei and Cat, these are less directly active roles in the sense they don't get up and fight directly, and they retain their ability and influence through their relationship to men (enraging Cersei in the process). Brienne, OTOH, is a directly active female character who gets in and mixes it up with the best of them (literally, in Jaime's case), and having a female character like that will no doubt be attractive to HBO.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Brienne is one of the characters I'm most looking forward to seeing — I would hate it if she were written out. However, I don't see this happening, because while other characters could serve her function in the plot, her situation is unique enough that the narrative would be poorer for the substitution.
Good stories aren't just about plot, they're about characters and relationships. Brienne's interaction with Jaime and the traits they bring out in each other are some of the most fascinating in the book, and would make for *great* television.
varcolarouxQuote Reply
This thread is infested with enough sock puppets that I don't entirely know who is real any more.
Good work, Davey/Middleton/etc.
Honestly, this thing about writing Brienne out of the series was brought up before as a "solution" to her being difficult to cast. It's also one of the funniest arguments I've seen in a while.
Next, I want to see people argue the merits of HBO keeping Ned as the central character throughout all seven seasons.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
i'd rather sink the iron islands than annex brienne.
1. catelyn needs a steward, someone she can trust, a woman.
2. brienne, as hideous as she is, shows jaime what it means to care and love something other than his sister.
3. brienne's presence in the world of westeros is nothing if not refreshing, and it makes for an interesting character. a large part of ASoIaF are character stories, all of whom serve their purpose in his bigger picturer.
4. brienne is likely not dead, and her quest for sansa will become a front and center plot point as things come to a head.
5. finally, we don't know the level of her importance yet, but if we start to question GRRM's characters and choices on who he focuses on, what's the point of watching the show? let's just write it ourselves!
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Well said, Ryan.
JillianQuote Reply
Thanks @Ryan for stepping up.
First, your sinking iron islands comment is shocking as you wanted it to, but you can't be serious.
1 is easily rewritten, and unimportant.
2 I agree, and I said as much. It's not about Brienne, it's more about Jaime. Brienne has always been a device, not a main character. The reason she is a POV is to make other characters more interesting, such as Renly, Jaime, Catelyn, and that gross knight she meets and teams up with in Feast. Unfortunately in the process Brienne is always purposely dull and a lost cause. She is what she is because she had no other choice, not because she is a brave strong woman as some fans highlight. And every actress that has been speculated for her part is a lot prettier than Brienne (yadda yadda ugly suit) which betrays what fans really want. Therefore I would not use fan demand of Brienne as proper gauge because I guarantee that no one will be happy with Brienne if the role is true to the books, except people like you who says she is hideous. I also think she's dull-witted.
#3 refreshing? I don't think the series needs refreshments. I will agree that the women don't have the most range, but saying your #3 is like saying Varys is a refreshing male figure. Varys is actually a lot more interesting, though not nearly because he is a eunuch. Brienne is interesting at best because she's ugly and dull… I liked her as a contrast to Renly's war camp, then she fizzled out.
#4 & #5 Speculative. Let GRRM say what he will either publicly or to GoT producers about Brienne–but don't put words in his mouth. Besides, I am only bringing this up because the show would be infinitely better without most of Brienne, and we already know there are rumors about book 4 being merged with adjacent story arcs.
FünkeQuote Reply
Before someone jumps on me saying that "the gross knight" from feast is a main character, I don't think that, but he is only interesting because it is from Brienne's POV. In the series, there will be no such POV literary tricks, there will be only contrast. So from the get-go Brienne will be decimated if the show happens. And if she is decimated like she has to be, people won't get it. Brienne is already doomed, so I say write her out.
FünkeQuote Reply
I completely agree with Funke.
shadallionQuote Reply
Hahaha. Well, Funke, you're definitely not one who's scared of provocative statements. :P
As for whether Brienne is "dull" or a "lost cause", that's a matter of opinion. As for if she's dead, that's ambiguous at best. As for if she's important or not– well, hopefully, the novels will be farther along by the time she would appear in the show, so then we'd know better.
There are so many characters who you could "cut" without affecting the "main" story too much, as long as you rewrote stuff. I don't see any need to cut Brienne any more than other interesting characters. And she seems far more important (is given a lot of "screen time") than other "supporting" characters. But to each their own.
That's why opinions are so great. Plus, we have the books, whatever they might change for the show.
StephenQuote Reply
I am beginning to wonder whether this Brienne stuff is all a joke – and was started just to start a good heated discussion to pass some time until we get our next update? The suggestion that she is written out altogether is absurd.
Granted, some of the Brienne chapters in AFfC were a LITTLE under par, but she simply has to play a part in the series – i mean, how awesome would it be to see her dancing around in a bear pit with a tourney sword?
AriQuote Reply
#4 is speculative for sure. but #5 is not, as i was saying that GRRM decided to give her a voice in that book for a reason, and by saying she could easily be cut is more of a personal taste issue (ie. you don't think she's worth keeping, you don't like the color magenta, you don't like green beans, you don't like single-ply toilet paper).
somehow i don't think she is as useless as we think funke. if it turns out she is dead, and she didn't accomplish her promise to catelyn or her promise to jaime, i'll be disappointed, but i don't think that will be the case. just my opinion.
and no, i wasn't serious about the iron islands, but if i had a choice between either or, i'd say bye bye to the greyjoy's. keep theon though, just make him an orphan or something :)
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Man, I must be bored.
I'm actually interested in whether shadallion is another of the Davey/Middleton/Fünke sock puppets, has been taken in by them, or is running a completely different side game.
For those of you new to the slow times on this board, you're watching one person argue with themselves, and a few other posters getting pulled into the fray.
Again, at this point, I don't know who's a real person any more.
Well done, sir or madam. Well done.
It *does* make discussing anything seriously difficult when you don't know if folks actually believe what they're writing, but there isn't really a lot going on right now.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
I believe everything I write…oh wait do I?
dizzyQuote Reply
I'm confused. Are you saying one person is using multiple user names?
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
Sock puppets. Two arguing "users" that are being controlled by one person.
If you want to go hunting through old threads, you'll find one where Davey/Middleton lays it out for the people he duped.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
He or she, I should say.
It's sort of fun to watch when you know what's going on and other folks don't, but occasionally it makes me a little crazy when people who haven't come out as being sock puppets start agreeing with their extreme theories.
I start to expect EVERYONE is a sock puppet.
Then I get lonely, and a little scared.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
*hug for Paul
just think of what it's going to be like now that filming is done…
JillianQuote Reply
If you want in on the joke, it's here.
Best post is September 25, 2009 4:00 PM.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Jillian,
I honestly think there will be a dead zone of sorts between now and the announcement that the show is picked up. Discussion of casting for season one will happen more in earnest when it's for sure going to happen.
Again, I've got a hope that the Amazon.com ASIN for Game of Thrones and the success of the Capricia pilot DVD pre-release means that HBO might be open to doing a similar marketing experiment.
Still, though, we're in for a long wait.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
Since we couldn't get Legion on board, and there ain't shit else going on around here other than poster schizophrenia, I figured I'd give anyone else who hasn't seen The Wire 100 reasons why it's one of the best shows ever put on television.
- 100 Quotes from The Wire
The uninitiated now have something to fill their time waiting for more GoT news.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
a bit late, but wow a Rome movie! Can't wait! Maybe it will come out the same time as the Deadwood movie!
carlosQuote Reply
Re: Best Shows on TV
Here's my list, in order.
1. The Sopranos
2. Rome
3. Deadwood
4. Lost
5. The Wire
6. Carnivale
7. Curb Your Enthusiasm
8. Flight of the Conchords
Not surprisingly, 7 out of 8 are HBO shows!
LexQuote Reply
@ Paul:
Wow… it never even crossed my mind that anyone would ever do something like that. Just… wow. You learn something every day!
LexQuote Reply
@Lex
Other than missing Twin Peaks from the list, and Arrested Development, I'd say that's pretty close.
It's almost worth making a Comedy and Drama list separately.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
@Ari
It's not a joke but it's not serious. Even though I meant everything I said, it would be too strange to write Brienne out. I doubt they would ever remove it completely.
She is over-rated though, obviously, as shown when people actually compare her (speculated) importance to entire regions of Westeros like Iron Islands and Dorne. That, to me, is the joke.
Her character is quite pathetic. Her silly quests are also funny, quixotic.. I never cared if she could get it done. And when I'm not laughing, I'm crying at this poor monster and her sad little life, and how in the end of it, it will still be garbage no matter who she kills or saves.
As for paranoids on this site, I'm sure Marty and Davey are ecstatic. The size of their egos border on grotesquerie. Don't feed the trolls, the saying goes.
Although shadallion's highly intelligent (evidently), that's not me!
FünkeQuote Reply
@Tobias Fünke
So the truth comes out: FÜNKE SIMPLY DISLIKES BRIENNE.
Here's my exposé: INVERTEBRAE HATES READING CHAPTERS WHICH TAKE PLACE ON THE IRON ISLANDS.
There, can we move on now?
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Ryan, life is about a good story and a good argument. If I had said I don't like Brienne, who cares? PS Sorry you don't like Iron Islands chapters.
FünkeQuote Reply
Fünke/Davey/Middleton,
I meant what I said earlier, too. This is pure damn art, all the more masterful by the fact that you keep mentioning it and I *still* get worked up about it.
It's like getting mad at a ventriloquist's dummy, a sure sign of skill.
I like Brienne, obviously. Still, I like the Iron Islands, too. I have to think it's there for a reason.
I'd love to see Theon's story eventually end there when the whole series is played out.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
@Fünky
Yeah, I dunno, just the whole selecting a new leader stuff i wanted to drown myself just to see if it would help. I mean i get the outsiders who feel jaded thing, but what do you find redeeming about that whole crew?
Regarding life is a bout a good story and a good argument, what are you a bumper sticker?
Just kidding. I always like a healthy debate. The bigger the topic, the more I like it.
*crickets?*
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
The uninitiated now have something to fill their time waiting for more GoT news.
They missed the best part of the exchange when Slim Charles killed Cheese:
Slim Charles: "Yo, that was for Joe!"
Gangster: "This sentimental motherfucker just cost us money!"
Also, they missed a ton of great Bunk and Bunny Colvin lines. No, "fuckity, fuck, fucken-A" scene, no "pussi" (apparently the proper plural form of pussy). No bottle in a paper bag speech. :(.
Then again, it's so hard to pick even 100 favorites from that series when every single line is perfection.
BrudeQuote Reply
@Brude
Yeah, that's why — while the youtube clip claims it — I didn't mention them being the 100 best, though they are good ones of course.
There was far too little prop joe in this one, he had some classic lines!
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Yeah, got to have more Prop Joe. I mentioned Bunny Colvin because he's my favorite character from the series, though he probably doesn't have as many classic lines as some others.
BrudeQuote Reply
@Brood
I thought Bunny was very "real" and not as cartoonized as some of the more classic characters. I liked him for that reason. No frills, just an honest guy with good values, maybe a little boring by television standards, but you felt for him. when he does his stint as a security detail, that scene with the hooker getting roughed up, you just felt for his plight. and obviously the stuff with namond later on was touching.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Let's add that I don't want Dorne to be written out, too. But when aFfC arrived, I wanted to read more on the plotlines already in progress – instead I got Dorne and Sam in Oldtown, wtf? Still, it will all come together in the end, in the in inclusion of these plotlines will be justified.
@Paul: maybe we need an extra blog for people who like to talk to themselves. Like "Winter is Coming: the sock puppet wars".
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
@ Ryan: I've never seen Twin Peaks. Maybe I should check it out soon, when I need a new show to watch.
LexQuote Reply
@Dunkin Trollnuts
GRRM defnitely tested our mettle in the 4th book. Every time you started getting into one plot-line, a new POV character would arrive.
It was like fantasy wack-a-mole!
@Lexington
Yes, check out Twin Peaks! Wild stuff. Super 80's in parts, but ahead of its time in many ways.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
There are quite a few main characters who could be written out without affecting the 'main plot' all that much, really.
But I don't think anyone should want them written out. Whatever impact they have on the main plot, they add to the richness of the story, and that's what makes the books so great. They'd be all the poorer without them.
SilverstarQuote Reply
The German paperback edition is even worse, since they split every book in two and put very cheesy stock-artwork on them. Can you imagine to wait FIVE MORE MONTH for the second half of aFfC to arrive? Check out the bad covers and the publication dates here, for a laugh.
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
@invertebrate
Twin Peaks is definitely my favorite T.V. show of all times. Carnivale is close second, though.
I think that if they get to make a 4th season then they should off with the iron isles and dorn plotlines, and combine it with the 5th book. I just don't think that a T.V. show with so many plotlines will work.
amir mishaliQuote Reply
just a short clip for those who don't the amazing mothrf*cking masterpiece that is "the wire":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnBbv8kyFPs
peeterQuote Reply
To change the subject slightly anyone else get irritated by Ygritte and her 'you know nothing Jon Snow' thirty times a chapter.
MatrimQuote Reply
If you think german version is bad you shouldn't check the french one then. ;)
All books are cut between 2 and 4 parts. (youhoo for 80€+ the complete book)
The art is not good either, and is reused several times. Worse is that now they make complete edition (read 1 book english = 1 book in french) but the cover are even worse.
SA_AvengerQuote Reply
I think the Wire is amazing but haven't even started on season 2. So watch out revealing major spoilers for me. I also loved Twin peaks, but for some reason stopped watching halfway through season 2. (and yes, of course Arrested Development)
KnurkQuote Reply
I could just be completely blind and missed it, but when this turns into a series (I'm saying when rather than if; feeling optimistic!, how long do you guys think everybody who can't get HBO are going to have to wait to see it? Or, because BBC will be co-financing it, will the BBC get it at the same time?
SamanthaQuote Reply
I very much hope that the BBC will not be stupid, and will choose to show it either concurrently with HBO, or at the very least, pretty soon afterwards. I think they'd be throwing money away if they chose to wait to show it, because many people will just resort to other methods of getting hold of the show.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Dunkeltroll & SA_Avenger: Same for us here in Czech Republic. All ASOIAF books have been splitted to 2 parts, to get more money from readers.
Molda22Quote Reply
I will personally visit some networks in the Netherlands to demand to buy the series immediately, and don't make the mistake they did with the Sopranos, Mad Men, Dexter and tons of other shows where they are 3 seasons behind of the US.
BBC will probably be behind too so it will be hard not to download, because half the fun will be the talkback after the show has aired.
KnurkQuote Reply
My fear is that if the BBC is putting money into the show, and then chooses to show it a significant time after it is shown on HBO, a lot of viewers in the UK and elsewhere who would have watched it on the BBC will resort to other means of watching it.
Which means that viewing figures for the BBC when they finally do show it will end up being down, and they may then decide that putting more money into the show would be a waste as they're not getting the viewing figures, and so end their financial involvement, causing HBO to drop the series due to lack of funding.
Which would be dreadful.
SilverstarQuote Reply
The way I see it, is that the British public are essentially funding this (the BBC side of funding anyhoo), because we're all license fee payers; so it would be foolish for them to alienate us by having a significant delay in airing dates. I'm thinking of Rome, and the Tudors, where we were essentially a year behind, and it's scary to think HBO/BBC could hit non-US viewers with a similar delay, because, to be honest, if I knew I had a year to wait to watch GoT; I would find alternate ways to get hold of it, as sad as that is.
SamanthaQuote Reply
@Samantha,
That's exactly what I'm afraid of. I seem to recall being told that the reason Rome was cancelled was something very much like this – that the BBC messed about with cuts and the airdates and timeslots so much that their viewing figures went way down, they felt their money could be better spent elsewhere, they pulled out of financing it, and so HBO ended the show.
SilverstarQuote Reply
For me, there's no way around downloading the series: in Germany, tv shows (& movies) always get dubbed – which takes time. I'm sure as hell are not going to wait for this. And besides, I can live without commercial breaks… ;-)
@ Molda22 & SA_Avenger: it is said that English texts gain about 30% in lenght, when translated to German. I don't know if it's the same with French and Czech, but that's the usual justification for the splitting-habbit: it's simply too much text for a single volume (with readable typesize and convenient paper). But how you can end up with four books is beyond me – this really seems to be a money grab.
Since the US hardcover edition is cheaper than the two respective German paperbacks (and there are also some reviews pointing out weaknesses in the translation), buying the original was a no-brainer. Sadly, my girlfriend doesn't dare to read a novel in English – so I had to buy the German stuff after all…
DunkeltrollQuote Reply
@Silverstar
That wouldn't surprise me in the least, and relegating it to BBC 2 didn't help either. But then again, that raises a whole new question as to -when- BBC would air it? It would have to be after the watershed, but would it be at 9pm, as soon as the watershed kicks in, or even later? Will it even be on BBC 1 or 2, or will it be consigned to BBC3 where they can get away with airing it earlier?
SamanthaQuote Reply
I guess it all depends on how well they expect it to do, and hopefully the buzz already surrounding it will encourage them to give it a good timeslot. I hope they don't relegate it to some crappy timeslot just because it's fantasy.
What's the best timeslot, do we think? Something like 9pm Thursday on BBC1?
SilverstarQuote Reply
Weekday evening slot, and then a Sunday repeat is in keeping with BBC habits of dramas, be it period, historical or fantasy. Look at Merlin, it gets a rather good slot on a Saturday evening, despite it being fantasy, so something of the calibre of GoT should certainly get a decent slot.
SamanthaQuote Reply
Which means that viewing figures for the BBC when they finally do show it will end up being down, and they may then decide that putting more money into the show would be a waste as they're not getting the viewing figures, and so end their financial involvement, causing HBO to drop the series due to lack of funding.
—-
I don't think that will have any impact on the numbers. These kind of things are highly overestimated. Take the numbers from Lost from :http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/05/05/most-pirated-tv-shows-on-bittorrent-april-27-may-3/18055 for example.
Lost has 1.7mio Downloads WORLDWIDE. Most of these should be from from other English speaking countries. The number itself is not that high if you take the population into account. 1.7mio out of maybe one billion with enough language skills are 0.17%. (imagine what the numbers will look like in countrys with other languages, for example France or Germany must be next to zero there. A few fans and that's all)
seb332Quote Reply
Dunkeltroll: I've got both czech and english versions of the books, and even if i didn't expect that, it was translated to czech perfectly. And to compare it, yes it was little bit longer but surely it wasn't 30% like in German.
But if we are speaking about translation – AFFC had different translator than previous books and he didn't listen to the community and he tried to translate the names of the houses(apart from the main ones) So it was horrible and ridiculous. Especially when it comes to the Iron man. I spent most of the time trying to find out who is who, because i was lost.
That translator was bombarded (methaporically) from all sides and i think(and hope) that Dance with Dragons will be with original english names again.
Molda22Quote Reply
* iron men of course. And sorry for my crappy english, but i'm trying to do my best :)
Molda22Quote Reply
@seb332,
Hope you're right :)
SilverstarQuote Reply
Fashionably late to the conversation …
First off: @Invertebrae –
"It was like fantasy wack-a-mole!"
That made me giggle. Thanks ^^
Secondly, RE wirting out characters/plot lines, I wouldnt support it. Even though there are some characters and plot lines, locales, etc that I find myself less interested in as I read through the chapters, like Silverstar said, they all add flavor to the series. They may not contribute much to the main scheme, but serve to influence and bring out more depth to the main ideas in the story.
I rather like Brienne, myself, even though I will admit, as a character standing on her own, she's rather bland. But, in the mix of the entire cast of characters, she adds an interesting flavor. How many times do you see in some fantasy series a female warrior archetype who is 5'10", beautiful, smart, and can kick the ass of someone twice her size? That's not Brienne. Sure, she can kick some ass, but thats because she's quite a big girl ^^ As far as her wits are concernend… I never pictured her as someone on par with Tyrion, to be sure. but I think I would like her much less if she was.
The Iron Islands… I was interested in their history and culture at first, in that they provided an interesting contrast to the Seven Kingdoms … but then they just kinda got old for me. It's not badly written, they arent terrible characters, its not a bad plot… it just doesnt do it for me, personally.
I'm a huge Arya fan, and love Daenarys for the evolution of her character.
As for the current subject … I dont have HBO, never have. I'm realizing I have missed some great shows. I have never seen Rome, but I'm thinking I need to remedy that, and soon. I might also have to rememedy the fact that I dont have HBO, in time to catch the pilot episode of AGOT. :)
RahBurQuote Reply
Just to clarify, because its early and I'm tired and probably writing incoherently…
I'm not saying that I dont think there will be characters, small subplots that might be excluded from the tv series … there's an awful lot of text to condense down, and some things just wont convey as well on the small screen. What I'm saying is that I wont be the first to say, "yes! Take this character out, please!" Or, "we dont need this series of events !" It all works together to give the story life, and who knows what GRRM has in store for us later on …
RahBurQuote Reply
I hope BBC show this pretty much at the same time as HBO (i.e. a few hours to few days out), otherwise many people will acquire it before showing. I'd much rather see the show on TV (as for channel, BBC HD please! I presume they are filming in HD?) where it will look far better, but if there's too much of a delay a poorer picture with no wait will seem far more attractive.
Merlin is a family show, hence the Saturday slot, GOT will not be suitable for anything like that. I'm guessing maybe the Spooks slot- 9pm on Wednesday BBC 1- or similar on another weekday, with a later repeat at the weekend on BBC 3. And hopefully the first one simulcast on BBC HD.
shinyteapotQuote Reply
I assure you I am a real live boy, not a sock-puppet!
As I mentioned earlier, we are being delusional if we think that the show can be shot scene-for-scene and with the full run of characters, and still be condensed into seasons of 12 sixty-minute episodes. We're all a little spoiled by the pilot I think, where there are only a handful of storylines and everything (and more!) from the book is in there.
When they get to seasons 2-4, this will not be possible. Somethings will have to left out. This happens with every book-to-movie/TV show adaptation, even for small, uncomplicated stories.
All of the justifications for Brienne's story-line have been very weak, usually along the lines of this:
"Even though there are some characters and plot lines, locales, etc that I find myself less interested in as I read through the chapters, like Silverstar said, they all add flavor to the series. They may not contribute much to the main scheme, but serve to influence and bring out more depth to the main ideas in the story."
"Adding flavor" is not a good enough reason to keep a time-consuming plot-line in there. What are they going to do, have Tyrion, Cersei, Jon, Dany and the rest just sit on the sidelines for huge chunks of the show while Brienne wallows in self-pity and goes wandering off talking with random hedge knights?
If they do have her in there, I think her role should be sharply minimized. I have no problem with her being the knight that takes Jaime to King's Landing, but after that adventure, just leave her out. Not because she's a terrible character, but for the sake of the show's limited air-time minutes!
shadallionQuote Reply
And here's my Top Ten All-time TV dramas:
10.Mad Men
9. The Tudors
8. 24
7. Big Love
6. Battlestar Gallactica
5. Dexter
4. Alias
3. The Wire
2. The Shield
1. Rome
shadallionQuote Reply
@Shinyteapot
I know Merlin is a family show; what I was saying is if a show like that can get a prime slot, then surely GoT can get one, because some people have commented on perhaps GoT won't because it is a fantasy drama.
SamanthaQuote Reply
Thing with removing characters, though, is that we don't yet know what else they might be needed for, or how much impact they might have on the future plot. It's all very well to say that Brienne hasn't done anything useful, but supposing they cut her, and then it turns out in later books that she has some kind of vital part to play in the fight against the Others? And if HBO does make it as far as filming all seven seasons, they then have to fudge things completely to make the plot work?
The only person who can really say which characters are ok to cut is GRRM, not us.
If we're talking about characters that could be cut as they don't have much impact on the main plot, you could add Bran to that list. And Jaime, for that matter. Great character that Jaime is, his main role in the books as far as the main plot is concerned so far is to cripple Bran, get caught, and get released, if you boil it down.
Not that I'm for one moment suggesting that Jaime or Bran should be cut from the series, btw.
SilverstarQuote Reply
@shadallion,
"As I mentioned earlier, we are being delusional if we think that the show can be shot scene-for-scene and with the full run of characters, and still be condensed into seasons of 12 sixty-minute episodes."
Agreed. I dont think anyone is suggesting we expect a play-by-play of Brienne's escapades …
I'm guessing that, for the show's sake, Brienne's role will indeed be "sharply minimized". The books go into much more detail, obviously, than the tv series can. I'm hoping, though, she will be given due air-time, to allow her character to fulfill the role GRRM intended for her to have. Cutting her out entirely…. I hope they dont do that to any of the POV characters… they are POV for a reason, I think.
I know there has been discussion of "who's your favorite character". I'm re-reading the series and am halfway through ASoS, and I'm finding myself really wanting to know more about Gendry. First time around, I didnt give too much though to him, but now I'm ever-so-curious as to what GRRM has in store for him…
RahBurQuote Reply
What do you think about arya scenes in tv?
I am currently re-reading the books again (half way through CotK) and i can't imagine what will HBO do with Arya. Huge amount of her chapters are her inner thoughts and emotions and very small amount of actual plot.
So if they want to capture it as it was in the books, her scenes will be like one minute long, because there won't be enough to show. Most of things we get to know in her chapters, are those from her thoughts and well that can't be done in TV (otherwise than some cheesy "arya is speaking loud to herself all the time" method)
So they will have to change her scenes from the book a lot. Or they will give her very limited amount od screen time.
I will accept either ways :)
Toss your ideas
Molda22Quote Reply
I will not accept a limited amount of on screen time for Arya! lol
She's just too good of a character.
I think there's likely enough action for most of Arya's scenes to do her justice, without the inner monologue. The scene with Joffrey and the butcher's boy … her training sessions with Syrio… I especially love her scenes with Jaqen H'ghar. "Valar morghulis" I cant wait to see what they do with her.
I was reading the scene with her and Gendry at Acorn Hall, " Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?" I'm have a feeling Arya will quickly become an onscreen fan favorite as well. She's cute, and she's fiesty…who doesnt like that?
:)
RahBurQuote Reply
There are a lot of characters who have chapters very much about their inner thoughts – Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, to name but three in addition to Arya.
I think the writers are going to have to come up with ways and new scenes to help show some of these thoughts, else we'll lose an awful lot of information about what makes those characters who they are.
SilverstarQuote Reply
to be honest, i think this will be more likely the way seasons go for GoT moving forward, I picture it in three parts: 1. what to keep/lose; 2. what to add; and 3. who to focus on.
First, the writing team is likely going to try and make these 12 episode seasons. They will wrestle and toil with what to include, what to remove. Most of these decisions will have to do with what works on screen vs. in a book. That's the hardest part, and requires good/great writers to pull it off. You have to look at Jackson/Walsh/Boyens as a lynchpin of a group of writers who had a huge task of doing just that for the LotR franchise. The team for The Wire is probably a better comparison though, as David Simon made it a point to hire several novelists to help write the screenplays. With Benioff and Weiss novelists themselves, I am sure they are drooling at the chance to have such an epic canvas to write within.
Second, they will have to consider where they stray from the GRRM cannon. They will do this for a few reasons. One will be narrative devices that work on screen (ie. we all agree that Ros and her opening lines in the leaked pilot work. Not only does she do a great job at introducing us to Tyrion and Jaime, she also gets to passively raise a toast to Jon Arryn without tons of set-up.) The things in a book which reoccur in different characters' thoughts will need to be optimized, and film can achieve this easily. A picture is worth a thousand words right?
Finally, the writing team will really have to figure out which characters are the "main" characters. In the book, you can get away with that many POV characters, giving all of them equal importance and passivity. On screen, the viewer will need to have a smaller handful to latch onto. This decision will not only be made on the plot of the book, but also on the "attractiveness" of a character on the small screen. If I were to make a prediction, here would be the five main characters of the GoT series:
1. Tyrion
2. Ned
3. Dany
4. Arya
5. Cersei
Runners up as I see them:
1. Jon
2. Sansa
3. Bran
I think even five MAIN characters is pushing it. Find me another show, comparable or otherwise, where you really had five "STARS". The only one I can think of is LOST, and many many people complain that when LOST was all about character stories, things dragged on. Because you're always doing these false starts and subplots.
We have to remember that while there is a bigger ongoing master plot in ASoIaF, part of why we love GRRM so much is his ability to not only make subplots that hold on their own for each of his POV characters, but he has a gift for making every single chapter feel like a mini movie. This is great for episodic television, so the challenge of making a 12 episode season is not only ambitious but gratifying in that puzzle-solving kind of way.
Another note, regarding Brienne. I think the beauty of film, again, is that you don't have to be 3rd person limited the whole time. That may bode well for characters like Brienne, especially when she is with Jaime. Their banter and relationship doesn't need to be just through one or the other. Most of the series will be shown 3rd person omniscient, if the pilot and history are any indication.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
"I think the writers are going to have to come up with ways and new scenes to help show some of these thoughts, else we'll lose an awful lot of information about what makes those characters who they are."
That's exactly what i meant. There is huge amount of important things in some of these inner thoughts. These that makes those characters who they are (like Silverstar said) and also some important plot additions (i don't know how to describe it better)
So they definitely need to find a way to somehow show us these.
Molda22Quote Reply
Good post, invertebrae!
shadallionQuote Reply
I think with regards to the 'main' characters, they'll need to pick one character per storyline to focus on, which may mean having more than five, unless they choose to minimise some of the storylines. Some will weave in and out of each other, but you've basically got (and I'm just talking about the first season, as the mains will change from season to season):
The Wall
Winterfell
King's Landing
The Eyrie
The Riverlands
The East
Which would make the main characters probably Jon, Robb, Ned/Cersei, Catelyn/Tyrion, and Dany.
Arya also has her own plot. Sansa weaves in and out of the King's Landing plot. Bran weaves in and out of the Winterfell plot (yes, he's the POV character, but I have a feeling they'll beef up Robb's role). Jaime weaves in and out of the King's Landing and Riverlands plots.
Those would be my picks for the mains in AGoT. Things will change if the show moves on to ACoK.
SilverstarQuote Reply
Fùnk,
Surely you must agree with me when I say they should also cut out Dany from the show?
She has absolutely NO connection to the rest of the characters (except, I admit, for that jaw-dropping revelation in season 3 when we find out the old guy following her is the same old guy who had 2 speaking lines in season 1).
Really, if the producers were bold, they would excise her from the show and just focus on the oft-mentioned Game of Thrones. Then, in the season 12 finale, when Westeros appears to have finally united under one ruler, this queen will show up out of nowhere and burn everyone into submission with her dragons, before having HBO-style sex with her handmaids. The end.
mQuote Reply
I more or less agree with Silverstar… In the books, a lot of characters gain importance based on second hand accounts and people's perceptions (such as Jaime in the first book, or Robb in the first two). These characters need to be beefed up in the show, so that people who arent't familiar with the books still care about what happens to them (or forget about their existence entirely).
Having said that, I don't think this will be done at the expense of other characters. For example, though Bran is a POV character, his chapters are usually few and far between, so I don't think they'll need to cut too much of his stuff out to make room for other characters.
MorganQuote Reply
I spy with my little eye, another sock puppet.
@ryan
I almost agree. I believe Jon should and will be a star of the show, while Cersei's part, at least in season 1 will be limited. I agree that if they use two many plotlines, then things are going to drag. Of course, the worst will be season 4, which has many plot lines. They would just have to cut a few of them off, especially the iron isles and dorn.
amir mishaliQuote Reply
ok, sorry but i just don't get anything you are saying. do you really want an easy to follow cookie cut show to come out of this??? look at the wire, look at mad men. as long as you have well established characters you can weave in and out of their own stories however you please. sure, you get more of some characters but that doesn't mean that you have to discard the others and make them two-dimensional stand-ins. if you don't develope them, they will remain boring. the only way you can develope characters, however, is to give them screen time. don't treat your viewers as if they were idiots – that's the moto of HBO. if they can read GRRM's convoluted books they sure as hell can follow a tv show, where characters are not just names but have actual faces!
peeterQuote Reply
@peeeeeter
Agreed. There is the reality of how MANY you can strongly focus on, and how many become supporting. I believe the books have too many main characters to sustain a 1-hour episodic series. The viewer would get lost where a reader can take their time and focus.
That is a reality they'll be dealing with. They'll also be dealing with whether they make character X bigger on screen than they are in the books, and also if they should make character Y smaller than in the books.
Mark my words.
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Ryan,
I think this is me agreeing with you. You tell me…
If you think of Deadwood, there are main characters, whose interests figure into almost every plot and subplot. Al Swearengen and Seth Bullock had interests both personal and professional in almost everything that happened there.
Then, you have characters like E.B. Farnum and Trixie, who figure into many of the plots because of their placement in the world. They aren't main protagonists, but they're highly visible characters.
Then, you have characters like Doc Cochran, who sometimes have a supporting role, but for one or two episodes get a subplot of their own.
Perhaps even more fitting would be The Wire with its multiple locations and number of players. It would always have its "main" characters, but wasn't afraid to spend a little time on more minor players.
Whichever model you go with, you can start thinking of an average episode and figure where your favorite character may fit in with everything. The one major thing to remember is that the most screen time doesn't always equate the most love. Clay Davis isn't in every episode, but is a very memorable character. The same goes for Omar Little.
I for one have every faith that the writers will deliver on the show. It won't be a direct translation of the books, but it will be an excellent TV show. Benioff has read all the books and loves them. I believe my favorite characters will be treated well, even those that don't get as much screen time as I might like.
Paul GudeQuote Reply
the wire shows what i'm talking about most clearly paul. it actually does a brilliant job of managing tons of characters. it also worked against the show at times, when things lost focus (as much of a masterpiece as the show was, it suffered from that on occasion).
but each season, you had about five MAIN characters, each of whom had 1 or 2 costars around them (mcnulty had bunk and keema, barksdale had stringer and weebay, marlow had snoop and chris, etc etc.), and then a third tier of supporting cast. even with this formula, the show was so poly-talent that it was all they could do to keep it wrangled.
GoT will have the same problems, only in the epic fantasy genre!
and to be honest… I CANT WAIT!
…ryan
invertebraeQuote Reply
Yeah so I hope Asha Greyjoy meets up with Brienne and kicks her ass. Actually… that would be a good fight. PS Asha is a POV character. But doesn't anyone care?
Nooooo.. it's all Brienne this and that… You people get together talkin bout Brienne like a buncha women in a sewing circle:
"Eewww, look how Jaime and plain-jane Brienne are flirting! How Qute.. How Quaint…. look how Jaime has changed from it!"
"Ewwww, look how cute nakkid Brienne is in the pit fightin' bears…"
"Ewwww, look how I'm soooo sure Brienne isn't really dead, and how she's got important quests to do…."
Well… Po.0
What I love about Asha? A kick-ass strong, independent, ambitious type, the perfect ironborn… And a cool older sister. Fight-on sistah.
Now… what's great about Iron Islands?
The blasting icy sea-wind, the salty spray against jagged rocks that break the ocean, that breezy rickety bridge between two towers, and Pirates! Harr Matey! I'm talkin PIRATES, man! Get with the program!
I get it though, some of the later chapters, like when they invade parts of the mainland, were kind of "too fast and convenient". But, how many page can the big man write.
Ciao,
Whiney "I love Hunny" Poo
Whiney the Poo BarQuote Reply
This one goes out to Whiney, the Pirate Bear:
When I come back from a mighty quest
I have no need for sleep or rest
I head to a tavern for a drink
And get so drunk I cannot think
A wench by my side and a jug of mead
These are the things that I most need
So I sit back and sing this song
And drink and party all night long
Hey, hey, I want more wenches
Hey, hey, more wenches & mead
Hey, hey, I want more wenches
Lot's of wenches is what I need
Now, back to the topic at hand (or: last discussed stuff:
TV fare changed tremendously over the last few decades. Apart from soap operas, 80's (and most of 90's, as fas as I know) series had more or less stand-alone episodes. There where a few recurring special guests or hints of an ongoing story, but mostly you could jump right in and understand 90+% of what was going on. Take any episode of the A-Team, Magnum, Star Trek:TNG or early X-Files for example.
Today, they increasingly count on people recording (or better: buying DVDs of) the show; you miss the first few episodes, you got no chance to make any sense of it – look at 24, Lost, BSG, Heroes.
GoT will of course belong to these "dense" shows. They could maybe even go without a "previously…" segment, since it would take up to much time to retell all storylines at once. OR, they do it the "Lost"-way: introduce the main characters in the first few episodes, then focus on a different set of protagonists / a different location for the following episodes. This would cut a lot of the backstory the viewer needs to know for a single viewing, and would allow for a more in-depth view of the action at hand. Am I wrong here?
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P.S.: Link to the pirate song above, by Alestorm from Scotland: Wenches And Mead
Credit where credit is due – great party band!
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