If you haven’t been following my Twitter you may have missed these two interviews of George R. R. Martin at the Chicago Comic & Entertainment Expo. (Pro tip: you don’t have to have a Twitter account to keep up with my tweets, just bookmark the page or add the feed to your favorite RSS reader.)
First, is this article from Monroe County Community College’s newspaper, The Agora, in which Martin reiterates that certain things from the books, including characters, will be cut during the adaptation process.
Martin admitted the impossibility of including every detail from the 674-page novel.
“You can’t get every word or every line of dialog, or even every character in,” he said. “But 10 hours is a lot of time, so we hope to be able to capture most of it. From what I’ve seen so far, it’s going to be quite faithful to the books.”
Second, we got a short snippet of an upcoming interview with George R. R. Martin from the Chicago Tribune’s Maureen Ryan.
“The irony of ‘A Game of Thrones’ and where we are now is, I wrote the books almost in reaction to my years in television,” said Martin, who confirmed that he is writing the eighth episode of “Thrones” first season. “My scripts were always too long, they were always too expensive. I was always having to cut them. There were too many characters, too many matte paintings. ‘We can’t have all these matte paintings, we can’t have this giant battle scene that you’ve written because we can only afford 12 extras.’
“So when I went back to books, I said, ‘I don’t care about any of that any more. I’m going to write a story that’s going to be as gigantic a story as I want. I’m going to have hundreds of characters, gigantic battles, magnificent castles and vistas — all the things I couldn’t do in television, I’m going to do in these books and I hope people like it.’ So now here we are doing it for television. But fortunately it’s David and Dan [David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, the executive producers of the series] who have to figure out all the problems, not me.”
Lastly, you can read Martin’s recap of the convention on his blog, where he teases the interview with Mo Ryan by saying, “I could tell you what we talked about, but then I’d have to kill you…”
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44 Comments
But how much GRRM has seen so far?….How many scripts or first drefts they already had at this point?
Quiet WolfQuote Reply
I'll be brave enough to offer my humble opinion here. I assume a lot of the South will be cut or reduced. It's the least interesting and least important part. I think that Dorne is the obvious choice for Bombadil of the series. If it becomes more important later on, they could always be given some extra focus then. I'm not saying they will cut the Knight Of Flowers–House Martell should still exist–but most of what goes on down there doesn't really matter so much, in my opinion, and could easily be written out or written differently or occur off-camera.
Kai Alexis PriceQuote Reply
His episode was too long, so they had to split it into two.
Nick ChambersQuote Reply
http://instantrimshot.com/
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
The second half will be played in season 4.
Nick ChambersQuote Reply
This LOTR comparsion has me thinking a bit. As long as it's more like the extended versions of LOTR I'll be happy. I thought the movies got the essence of the story however the theatrical version really missed some good opportunities (like the mouth of Sauron scene) that could have really added to the movies overall. As long as the essence is there I guess that's all that matters. With 10 hours to tell it I think they'll do fine.
On an urelated note, do we think this will air around the same time as the new Curb season next year? I would love that Curb is awsome.
dizzy34Quote Reply
The Knight of Flowers is a member of House Tyrell, not Martell. The Tyrells need to be in it to set up Cersei's massive fall from grace in Season 4/5, whilst the Martells are definitely critical to the endgame. However, no significant Martell character appears in the books until Book 3 because they are not needed, so I assume they'll do the same in the TV series.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
For cutting, I really think we can use the pilot as a a guide, at least for the first season. As much stuff as was cut from the chapters in the pilot script, a similar amount will be cut from the the rest. Which means nothing important, basically. I don't think we have to worry a lot about cuts. Although it could be a problem with the longer books later.
pualoQuote Reply
Curb is coming back? AWESOME!
LexQuote Reply
Agree with you pualo.
When I did my imagined "characters cutting" I had a pilot as a guide.
@The_Rabbit01Quote Reply
Yes, it was announced a couple of days ago. Should air in 2011. Would love a Sunday of Curb, True Blood and Game of Thrones (wouldn't mind Bored To Death in there as well). I gave Treme a shot but it's just not my thing. I'm hoping I like Board Walk Empire better.
dizzy34Quote Reply
Agreed. I recall, prior to reading the pilot script, many people were speculating that Dany's story wouldn't be included at all in the pilot. Not only was she in it, but they actually moved a chapter of hers forward to get more of her in the pilot. And of course, David & Dan still fit all of the important characters and scenes from Winterfell in there. With a bonus Lannister scene or two for good measure.
So using that as an example, I expect the plot to be streamlined and minor characters to be reduced to glorified extras. But I don't foresee any major cuts or changes to the story. At least not for the first season.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
I love Curb, so I'm very happy to hear this… but I wonder where they'll go with it? IMO, the last two seasons both felt like pretty good endings for the entire series. I'll gladly take more Larry David goodness, but I hope it doesn't jump the shark.
LexQuote Reply
Always a possiblity…LD has his hits and misses but his hits are usually home runs.
dizzy34Quote Reply
Interesting you mention the Dany issue, given a conversation I have just had with a friend of mine. I had recently introduced her to the books (as I have many others – see I'm doing my part!). Anyway, when she finished the first Dany chapter, she was so taken by her storyline (and I think Dany being young and vulnerable certainly helps in this regard) that she went and read all the rest of the Dany chapters in the book before coming back to the beginning again.
As an aside, she then decided to read everyone else, one person at a time, which in my opinion would completely ruin the books. Has anyone else heard of people reading in this way?
But my point being was that at the beginning, the Dany story is so compelling (possibly even more so for female readers) that I now think HBO has done a great thing by moving the additional chapter of hers forward so it fits into the pilot. If they can drum up plenty of viewers to watch the pilot by way of great marketing, then I think that having more of the Dany story in the pilot will help to "hook in" viewers for the series. Kudos.
HostylQuote Reply
Well the thing about these books are that they lend themselves to being shuffled around a bit. (Hell DWD is hopping back to the beginning of Feast) I'm sure they can take a lot of liberties with the placement of the Dany story. They could even have most of an episode deal with her and then get back to her two episodes later. (Spoiler) Just as long as they end the season with her hatching the Dragons, I'll be happy.
dizzy34Quote Reply
But in saying that, they don't want to run into what I think is one of the major problems with Lost, that being that they will end an episode with a cliffhanger involving certain characters, then we don't get to see those characters at all in the next episode, and have to therefore wait 2 or sometimes 3 weeks before the cliffhanger gets resolved.
HostylQuote Reply
I agree that the Dany story will keep the female audience hooked if nothing else will.
It's just perfect in that regard. They seem to enjoy the abused yet beautiful and talented female victim characters. And the whole epic love story with the dangerous/sexy exotic man in a world "far away". I predict some steaming hot sex-scenes as well, that will keep the women grinding on their chairs (too much?).
It's important that whoever plays Dany is someone most women can relate to in some manner. So some "babe" would not work very well. We got a very appealing male lead in the Dany story, but Dany herself needs to be portrayed by someone with grace and a little humility.
sjweningsQuote Reply
Lombardo said that his thought was to have TREME and THRONES airing simultaneously. Whether he meant just at roughly the same time or maybe using TREME as a lead-in to THRONES is unclear, but that puts THRONES in the Spring 2011 slot. TRUE BLOOD Season 4 is looking like it will be June 2011 (so starting after THRONES finishes, probably) and CURB's airing time is uncertain.
It looks HBO's plan for the next few years is to have TREME and THRONES at the start of the year, TRUE BLOOD in the middle and BOARDWALK EMPIRE in the autumn, with the other shows slotting in around them. That gives them all-year-round coverage of new drama, which will hopefully keep subscribers on board all the time, rather than cancelling between seasons (as a lot of people did with THE SOPRANOS).
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
You are all overthinking this for the first season. Assuming they keep to the same ratio of book pages to script pages, they'll have six to seven extra minutes per episode with nothing cut. That's enough time for a "previously on", a introduction sequence, and a "next time on". How do i get this number? 60 pages of script = 91 pages of soft cover. 807 pages of softcover – 91 pages = 718 of softcover = 80 pages per episode for the rest of the episodes. 80 pages=54 script pages= 54 minutes.
I.e. the reasons for cuts will NOT be time, but be quantity of actors with lines. So when thinking of who will be cut, think of who else will be able to convey their lines/viewpoint.
My guesses for who gets cut will be xhalabar zho, chataya, allayla, rickon, osha, not sure about anguy and lemoncloack…
Critical_GeekQuote Reply
Agreed with the script page formula… although it could be when (and if) they start dealing with flashbacks, they may be more time consuming to make it easily understood by the average viewer.
I seem to recall Rome episodes not being the full 60 minutes, but more like 55 minutes, and that;s including the overly long starting sequences, but without any "previously on" or "next time on". Do we actually know that we are getting 60 minute episodes, or are they going to be more around the 55 minute mark.
Agree with most of your guesses for cuts, but absolutely disagree with cutting Rickon, he is far too important, and may become much more important to come (and its not like you can just introduce him later – HEY where did this Stark kid come from). Although they could just introduce him at the start and not show him for most of GoT. Everyone has their most shocking moments, but for me it was when I thought Bran and Rickon were dead – the whole innocent children thing.
HostylQuote Reply
HBO isn't so hung-up on exact page/minute counts for episodes as regular network TV is. They don't have to worry about commercial breaks and such, and if something runs over a bit, they can start their next movie at the quarter hour, or whatever. It doesn't affect them too much, because remember, the movies they show usually have somewhat odd times. Feature films usually run 'about' 90 to 120 minutes, but really there is no set thing with them. All of that is approximations.
If an episode needs to run 63 or 67 minutes, it will, if they only need 52 minutes, well it will end then. The last episode of "The Pacific" was barely more than 50 minutes, IIRC. I was surprised how much before the hour it ended. The pilot episode of Treme was 80-some minutes, but most episodes are around 60 minutes.
I think on balance HBO would like them to keep it a bit less than 60 minutes, but they seem to be pretty lenient on these things.
BrudeQuote Reply
The pilot of Treme was 80 minutes? Wow.
I've watched all the seasons of Rome, Deadwood, Carnivale, Sopranos, and The Wire, and I don't seem to recall them ever going over 60 minutes. I guess it's probably happened a couple times, but they were nearly always between 50-60.
LexQuote Reply
The Wire definitely had a few episodes longer than 60 minutes. One season finale was 90 minutes, I believe.
BrudeQuote Reply
I don't really think entire places/chapters need to be cut. One of the cool things about GoT is that in one way or another, most of the characters influence each others somewhere along the way. I think and hope that the LoTR comparison is more of a general reference. Tom Bombadil is completely irellevent to the plot of the story. He is, according to Tolkien himself, a being that operates outside of the happenings of Middle Earth. There is nothing in ASoIaF that is as easily snipped off onto the cutting room floor.
There will be lines omitted and likely there will be scenes and maybe even entire chapters cut out, but I really hope that all of the elements are there in some way or another.
Lord Ned's HeadQuote Reply
The second half has been postponed indefinitely. You'll see it when it airs.
AshliQuote Reply
GRRM basically made it clear that some characters will be cut. This shouldn't be speculation anymore, he said it himself.
LexQuote Reply
Ha, a soul mate at last! I read the Dany chapters in each book before even starting with the rest of it, after being fascinated with her storyline in GoT. Then when re-reading the books, I actually took your friends approach, and read through the books following single character at a time.
MaryQuote Reply
I hope they recast Jon Snow
KalQuote Reply
I'm curious if they will treat the bigger battles in the book like they have done in Rome. Scene's like these would require a lot of money, extra's and time, resources that you might want to spend elsewhere.
Rome didn't have any big battle scene's (only a brief one during the pilot and a more extensive one at the end of S2), whilst still being an awesome show. I'm a bit torn about this, as I'm dying to see things like Rob's attack on Jaime, the ships at KL, etc, but I can also understand that this might be too much considering the available budget per episode.
How do you guys think HBO will address this? Maybe they will focus on one particular 'big scene' and only show the outcome of others (like they did in Rome)?
Danny DreijerQuote Reply
..becayse our current Jon Snow looks constipated? I believe that the role calls for this.
NaysayerQuote Reply
There's only three battles in book one (Whispering Woods, Green Fork, and the Dothraki raid) and with the exception of the Green Fork they happen "off screen". I think they'll mainly focus on Tyrion during the Green Fork so there are many tricks to making it seem like a massive battle is going on around him. Kind of like Braveheart did. I think they'll worry about season 2 when/if they get there.
dizzy34Quote Reply
We call it 'intense'. You say tomato.
Sarah Ha HaQuote Reply
A lot is being made about this "Tom Bombadil," statement. Remember that this isn't a direct quote, but a statement from Trebla regarding what GRRM said. Here's what she said in context:
"His point on the series is that if you loved how Peter Jackson did LOTR, you will like the series. If you were one of the ones that hated it because there was no Tom Bombadill, you won't like the series!"
To me, this seems not so much of a "clue" that a beloved character was going to be removed, but basically saying that nit-pickers who expect the books to be a direct translation will be disappointed.
Still, this sparked a lot of speculation about major characters and whole storylines of the book being cut out. Then, the quote above seemed to reinforce this idea for some: "You can’t get every word or every line of dialog, or even every character in."
Personally, the inclusion of "ever word or every line of dialog," in that statement reinforces the caution against expecting a word-for-word translation from book to screen. Still, that "every character," line, combined with the idea that there's a direct correlation between Tom Bombadil and a character in ASoIaF has got some folks convinced that a fan favorite is going to get axed.
I wanted to remind everyone of something that happened when we were trying to solve GRRM's clues. He posted this on Not a Blog:
"In the pilot (though not, of course, the series), Rickon, Tommen, Myrcella, Ser Boros Blount, Ser Meryn Trant, Septa Mordane, Jory Cassel, Hullen, Vayon Poole, Jeyne Poole, Beth Cassel, and Hodor will all be non-speaking roles or 'featured extras.' Some may not appear at all, or else will turn up only in the background. So don't drive yourselves mad trying to figure out who will play those parts."
I'm not pointing this out as a means to say these characters are "safe," but rather offer this up as an example of what GRRM could be talking about when he says, "You can’t get every word or every line of dialog, or even every character in." We're given a list of thirteen characters that "won't be in the pilot." I don't think the idea some have put forth that characters will be reduced or absent but not specifically purged from the story is that far off the mark. Having a character absent from or silent in a scene would take little effort. Erasing a character from the world completely would in most cases cause as much hassle as keeping them in.
They'll be doing this to reduce problems, not cause more of them.
@sgnpQuote Reply
When ASoIaF gets to the 2nd and 3rd books there are a awful lot of characters and Houses to follow, I think this is where they will be combined or omitted. I thought maybe that the Tyrell's can be omitted and replaced with Dorne, have the Viper and Loras be combined or have Loras be a younger brother, Margaery be a second daughter of the Prince of Dorne and the Queen of Thorns his mother. Loras the Viper and the Mountain duel ends up a tie with both critically injured so Tyrion still ends up in the dungeons. The Sand Snakes thinking their father is mortally wounded want revenge. Loras the Viper recovers and goes to Dragonstone, or Loras Dorne goes to Dragonstone and the Viper is sent to Storms End and then marches back when Cersei conspires against Margaery.
This is just my way of showing how things can change but still keep close to the books.
TysnowQuote Reply
It's speculation that they're anything but tiny characters.
pualoQuote Reply
That was the worst part of Rome. It was really cheesy and disappointing and brought down the quality of the otherwise great show. I hope they don't do it that way on GoT.
pualoQuote Reply
The elimination of an entire House is much further from "close to the books" than I'd ever want to get. Plus, the amount of effort it would take to reconcile all the loose ends such a radical departure would turn up would completely negate any positives a consolidation of that sort would create.
That's not to say that it hasn't been done before. The movie "Return to Oz," combined the plots and characters from two completely separate books and managed to tell a cohesive story. Still, the end result was barely recognizable as one or the other. The movie "From Hell" combined two completely different characters from the graphic novel of the same name.
In general, these types of things are jarring to fans of the original source material. If they do end up going this route, I think a lot of fans of the books will be surprised.
I totally understand the impulse of thinking these things through so that you can get a handle on them if they happen. I just caution against thinking they're an inevitability.
@sgnpQuote Reply
Are you Bob Ross?
SteveQuote Reply
I know a great deal about happy little trees, but am nowhere near on Bob's level. He has become more powerful than you could possible imagine.
@sgnpQuote Reply
I agree with this assessment about the battles in Season 1.
I'll also go ahead and speculate that Season 2 will work in much the same way. (Spoiler? Not too much) The climactic battle is mostly seen from the walls of the city, the deck of a ship, or the point of view of someone in a chaotic scene. The first two mostly call for panoramic views that can largely be done with artistic rendering, and the last one is handled much the same way dizzy34 just described for the Green Fork.
KyleQuote Reply
ROME had a brief burst of the Battle of Alesia in the first episode, an even briefer burst of the Battle of Pharsalus in a later episode (the sixth, IIRC) and then the full-on Battle of Philippi in Season 2, Episode 6, and only Philippi was shown in any detail (and even that was a massive simplification of the real battle, which spanned days, partially took place in marshland and actually had two major engagements). In the final episode we also join Antony shortly after the naval Battle of Actium, with none of the battle shown beyond some burning ships way off on the horizon.
Given HBO's resources, this was somewhat disappointing. The contemporary BBC Roman history documentary series had brilliant CGI battle scenes on a tiny amount of the budget. ITV's adaptation of SHARPE'S WATERLOO depicted Sean Bean fighting the Battle of Waterloo for almost two hours where you never saw more than about 300 men in a single shot and was still effective, which is nothing short of miraculous. The BBC's adaptation of WAR AND PEACE used a similar process to depict the Battle of Borodino.
In short, there is no reason HBO can't do the battles and do them well. But based on their prior history of hesitation and tentativeness (even the CGI company HBO contracted to do work on ROME remarked on how odd it was they were so unambitious in the effects sequence, particularly in the first season), I'm not holding my breath.
Or to put it another way, if BATTLESTAR GALACTICA can do the Battle of New Caprica on $2 million, there is zero reason why GAME OF THRONES can't do the Green Fork or an effectively-pared-back version of the Blackwater on three times that.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Hope they don't.
sjweningsQuote Reply
The Wire definitely had a few episodes longer than 60 minutes. One season finale was 90 minutes, I believe.
JoeQuote Reply