Season 1 Speculation

Scripting Episode 5

Continuing our ongoing exercise in guestimation as to the content of the GAME OF THRONES scripts. Our rough Season One outline can be found HERE. Episodes 2 – 4 can be found here: Episode 2, Episode 3, Episode 4. As per the norm, none of these scripts are official. Episode 5 encompasses pages 305 – 384 of A Game of Thrones (U.S. softcover).


33 scenes; 62 pages

½ of TYRION 4
½ of EDDARD 7
[insert Jaime/Cersei]
½ of EDDARD 7
½ of TYRION 4

Action is loaded throughout: The second day of jousting at the Hand’s Tourney begins with the Hound unhorsing Jaime, and it ends in violence after Ser Gregor loses to Ser Loras; Gregor kills his horse, tries to kill Loras, then goes toe-to-toe with his brother. Arya escapes castle guards in a mad dash through the Red Keep’s catacombs. A bloody fight on the High Road as mountain clansmen attack Catelyn’s party, and Tyrion, armed and allowed to fight, comes to Catelyn’s defense during the battle. The episode ends with Jaime ambushing Ned in the deserted streets of King’s Landing, killing Ned’s men and shattering his leg.

Introductions: Bronn, Chiggen, Lancel Lannister, Fat Tom, The Blackfish, Lord Nestor Royce, Mya Stone, Maester Colemon, Ser Vardis Egen, Lady Lysa Arryn, Robert Arryn, Baby Barra and her Whore Mom, Wil, Heward (also Lord Hoster Tully and Young Catelyn Tully in a flashback)

Deaths: Ser Gregor’s horse, a handful of mountain clansmen, two Brackens, Chiggen, Wil, Heward, Jory Cassel

Sex: This is freaking HBO! I added a Jaime and Cersei scene.


Catelyn has Tyrion captured. Many inn patrons call for Tyrion’s death despite the protests of Masha Heddle. “Don’t kill him here!” she pleads. “Don’t kill him anywhere,” Tyrion adds.


Tyrion is bound, hooded, and tossed onto a horse. Catelyn announces they will take him north to Winterfell. Catelyn, Ser Rodrik, and Ser Willis Wode ride off through the rain with Tyrion in tow, accompanied by three Bracken men, Bronn, Chiggen, and the singer Marillion.


Tyrion discovers to his dismay that they are not headed north to Winterfell as advertised (“Loudly and often,” Catelyn admits), but rather east to the Eyrie. There is little chance he will be rescued by his family now.



Ned and Ser Barristan Selmy talk beside the wagon that holds the body of Ser Hugh of the Vale.


King Robert is trying to squeeze into armor with the aid of his squires (one of which is LANCEL LANNISTER). Ned and Ser Barristan attempt to talk Robert out of joining the scheduled melee with seemingly little success.


The championship jousts continue. Ser Jaime Lannister is unhorsed by the Hound (Sansa says she knew he would win). Ser Loras Tyrell defeats Ser Gregor Clegane, and Gregor, in a fury, kills his horse– and then attempts to kill Ser Loras. The Hound saves Loras and fights with his brother until King Robert’s booming voice brings an end to it.


Jaime, nursing bruises from the joust, is visited by Cersei. Cersei complains about the melee, won by Thoros of Myr; it is revealed King Robert did not enter the melee after all. They discuss Tyrion; Jaime misses him while Cersei clearly has no love for their dwarf brother, and her mood grows more sour. Jaime seems more intent on flirting than listening to Cersei complain, and Cersei leaves in an angry huff.


King Robert is drinking heavily again, and Cersei’s mood is worse, if possible. Jaime keeps his distance. Arya shows off the bruises she’s gained during her “dancing lessons” to her father; Sansa remarks that she must not be a very good dancer. Ned suggests that maybe having Syrio train her was not a good idea, but Arya will have none of that. Arya brags that tomorrow she gets to catch cats!


Ned’s brooding is interrupted by the arrival of a cloaked and disguised Varys.


Another cloaked figure slips past an open door; King Robert lies within, passed out and snoring on a bed.


Varys reveals an assassination attempt was to have been made on King Robert during the melee.

The cloaked figure outside Robert’s bedchamber is revealed to be Jaime.

Ned voices his disbelief to Varys.

Jaime is already past Robert and down the hall. He enters another bedchamber.

Varys implicates Cersei in the plot against Robert.

Jaime finds Cersei alone in her room. She starts to protest, still angry, but Jaime silences her with a hard kiss.

Varys also reveals to Ned that Jon Arryn was murdered.

Jaime fucks Cersei with his hand clamped over her mouth.

Varys says Jon Arryn was poisoned by his own squire– the conveniently dead Ser Hugh of the Vale.

Cersei is giving as good as she gets. She stifles her own cries with the palm of her hand.

King Robert sleeps the night away.

EXT. RED KEEP – DAY [2 pages]

Arya chases a cat through an alley. She encounters Myrcella and Tommen on a side street, accompanied by a septa and Lannister guards. Arya is so bedraggled no one recognizes her; she is mistaken for a beggar boy and ordered seized. Arya runs.


Arya loses herself in a maze of hallways.


Arya hunkers down in the dark, hiding. When her eyes finally adjust, she sees the room is filled with the gigantic skulls of ancient dead dragons. Arya eventually calms her nerves and goes to try to find a way out, but overhears two men talking (Varys and Illyrio, both disguised) and is forced to hide amidst the giant skulls. The two men talk of bastards found, and seem to be plotting a war and other things; Arya hears one say, “If one Hand can die, why not a second?” Eventually they move out of range of her hearing. Only after they are long gone does Arya move again, looking for a way out.


Arya emerges from the sewer, filthy. She is more than a mile away from the city.


Arya marches up to the guard and demands to be taken to her father.


Arya is brought before an angry Ned. She babbles about what the two shadowy men were saying but can’t seem to get anything straight, and her father doesn’t seem to believe her. Their talk is interrupted by the entrance of Yoren, newly arrived from the north. Yoren seems to have some dark news to tell, so Arya is ushered out by her father’s guard FAT TOM.


Arya, still worried, asks Fat Tom if he would ever let anyone kill her father, Fat Tom laughs and assures her he is safe. “Every northerner is worth ten of these southron swords.”

EXT. THE HIGH ROAD – DAY [4 pages]

As Catelyn’s party continues east toward the Eyrie, the captive Tyrion continues to protest his innocence. Tyrion insists Littlefinger lied to Catelyn; he points out Littlefinger also lied about taking Catelyn’s maidenhood. The heated debate is interrupted by an attack of mountain clansmen. Catelyn reluctantly arms Tyrion, and everyone is forced to fight. They win; though two of the Bracken men are killed, as well as Chiggen, and Ser Rodrik is wounded. Tyrion even rescues Catelyn from two looming clansmen.


Catelyn and her bloodied party approach the BLOODY GATE, where they are met by SER BRYNDEN “THE BLACKFISH” TULLY; Catelyn greets her uncle warmly…



A younger Brynden Tully argues with his brother, Catelyn’s father LORD HOSTER TULLY; they fight bitterly as a YOUNG CATELYN TULLY looks on. Brynden refuses his brother’s decree that he should marry; Hoster calls him a “black sheep,” to which Brynden replies that he is a Tully and therefore should be a black fish.



The Blackfish joins the escort. Ser Rodrik is left at the gate so his wounds may be cared for.

EXT. VALE OF ARRYN – DAY [2 pages]

The party progresses down through the mountainous vale, Alyssa’s Tears seen even in the far distance. The Blackfish warns Catelyn about her sister Lysa’s changed ways.


The party arrives at the GATES OF THE MOON. A long climb up looms before them, though they expect to make the climb in the morning. In the courtyard, LORD NESTOR ROYCE greets them with disheartening news: Lady Lysa has ordered them brought up at once. MYA STONE, King Robert’s firstborn bastard daughter is introduced; Mya cheerfully talks to Catelyn about her love, a squire named Mychal Redfort. Mules are given, and they set off again.

EXT. MOUNTAIN TRAIL – NIGHT [quarter page]

TRAVEL MONTAGE as the party continues up the narrow trail in the dark, led by Mya. WAYCASTLE STONE is passed through, as is WAYCASTLE SNOW. An even steeper climb follows; Mya assists Catelyn past a precipice. WAYCASTLE SKY is arrived as dawn touches the mountain peaks.

INT. WAYCASTLE SKY – DAWN [quarter page]

Catelyn and the others are taken through the waycastle and out the back; they are placed into large baskets with winches to be drawn the rest of the way up to the Eyrie.


Our first good look at THE EYRIE as Catelyn and her party rise up along the mountain face in the winch baskets.


Catelyn and her party are greeted by MAESTER COLEMON and SER VARDIS EGEN.


LADY LYSA ARRYN warmly greets her sister Catelyn. Only after Ser Vardis and Maester Colemon are dismissed does Lysa reveal her fury at Catelyn for bringing a Lannister to her home. Lysa is clearly imbalanced. Young ROBERT ARRYN enters, distraught; Lysa soothes her son by breastfeeding him. She assures Robert that the Lannister cannot hurt him here. “Make him fly,” little Robert whines. Lysa replies, “Perhaps that is just what we will do.”


Ned argues with King Robert while the Small Council looks on. Robert has discovered that Daenerys is pregnant and wants her killed; Ned argues the morality of the act. It’s a losing cause, and Ned has had enough; he resigns as Hand of the King and leaves.


Ned enters the solar and notifies Vayon Poole he is no longer the Hand, and to make preparations for a return to Winterfell. Ned is soon visited by Littlefinger, who says he should consider staying at least one more night; Littlefinger has finally located one of the witnesses Ned seeks-– in a brothel.


Ned questions a WHORE, whose baby daughter BARRA is said to belong to King Robert. “She looks so like him, does she not, milord?” the whore asks Ned. “She has his nose, and his hair…” The whore is young and clearly besotted with King Robert.


Ned exits the brothel with Jory Cassel, as well as WIL and HEWARD-– two other members of his guard. Littlefinger follows, quipping as he goes.


Ned and his entourage continue through the empty streets. Ned questions Littlefinger about King Robert’s bastards; Littlefinger recounts a bastard born in Storm’s End, conceived in his brother Stannis’s own wedding bed, as well as twins born in Casterly Rock, though Littlefinger says Cersei had the twins killed.

[QUICK FLASHBACK of Lyanna Stark saying, “He will never keep to one bed. Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”]

They are met in the street by Jaime, accompanied by twenty Lannister men. Jaime wants Tyrion returned to him; he draws steel and advises Ned to do the same, though he allows Littlefinger to flee. Ned says that if he is killed, Caitlyn will slay Tyrion. Jaime balks, not wanting to chance his brother’s life “on a woman’s honor.” He tells Ned he is free to go … and then tells his men to kill the others. The sudden and furious fight leaves Jory, Wil, and Heward dead. Ned loses consciousness after breaking his leg beneath his fallen horse.

INT. TOWER OF THE HAND – NED’S ROOM – DAY [quarter page]

Ned wakes. His shattered leg is being set by Grand Maester Pycelle. Ned blacks out again.


    • It's impossible to fit her in all the episodes, unless they are going to create some new scenes…

      • You can't skip Dany in two back to back episodes, she needs to make an appearance in this episode, or episode 4, even if they are brief scenes.

      • I'm guessing they will create new scenes for Dany. Much of her journey across the Dothraki Sea is covered in flashback, that for the television series will probably have to be enunciated. Dany's 3rd chapter alone contains enough material to stretch across 3-4 episodes.

        • I'm imagining the going back and forth between Dany and the Starks will be done similar to how Battlestar Galactica switched between the Galactica crew and Helo and Boomer when they were on Caprica. Or, perhaps a better example is how they switched between the Galactica crew and the Cylons.

          It's been a while since I've read the first book, but isn't AGoT about 2/3 Stark content and 1/3 Dany content? I could see them taking a break from Dany for 2 episodes, but not 3. If this show makes it to the next few books, I could see it becoming a little like LOST, where there are several "main" characters, and each episode is centered around a specific character.

          • Nope, Dany's story makes up about 1/7 of the book at best. IIRC, the Blood of the Dragon novella (which won a Hugo) which was made up of all of Dany's stories assembled into one book came to less than 100 pages.

          • Another good example is HBO's own Carnivàle, which had basically two different casts separated by a large distance who eventually converged.

            Actually, "The Wire," is perhaps an even better example of how to deal with an ensemble cast with main characters that remain separated for a large period of the story.

          • Yea, I see it most in common with The Wire in terms of the complexity of the large cast and their interactions. Especially with how The Wire expanded their scope and added new points of interest with each season.

            The challenge with GoT is that I think it takes it even further than the Wire and these other shows, and does so across an entire made-up world, not just the city of Baltimore for example.

            Book one is complicated enough with the 4 main story lines(Winterfell, King's Landing, The Wall, Dothraki). But then in book 2 things expand and separate quite a bit, and we have:
            King's Landing,
            The Wall,
            Dany going all over the Eastern Continent,
            Arya going all over the place with different groups of people,
            Stannis and Davos and their exploits,
            Robb and Catelyn, and Catelyn going to visit Renly,
            Theon's storyline.

            That's about 8/9 separate story-lines taking place and I feel like I may have even left off some. Granted, Theon and Davos both only have a few chapters, so they may only really be focused in a couple episodes each… but its definitely a lot to juggle and a lot to ask of the viewers. (If done well, I don't see it being a negative thing at all, just to throw my opinion in there.)

          • Yeah, that's the main reason I realized The Wire was a better example than Carnivàle on one hand, because as it went on you had a lot of separate people and locations fracturing off of the main storyline.

            I'd argue, however, that when dealing with drama we don't so much have to worry about actual distance between the players as we do keeping track of which characters belong to which location/storyline. With "The Wire," you had to keep track of who knew who and who worked for whom, etc.

            There may be hints of where we're at by the way it's shot and edited. If you look at something like the movie Traffic, the different qualities of the film gave you a clear impression of which of the three main locations you were at.

            For all I've said, however, I think we pretty much agree. This is going to be a VERY complicated story to tell, but it is definitely possible if they know what they're doing.

            I know that people dislike "Lost" comparisons, but your comment of this being a lot to ask of the viewers is completely correct. Anyone who doesn't watch regularly is going to make the same remarks about how it's incomprehensible, and complain about how there's no way to know what's happening. However, for most fans of HBO dramas, complications come with the territory.

          • Yea for sure. I think the good news is that there is definitely a growing acceptance and even desire for these sprawling, sophisticated shows with season-long story arcs and large ensemble casts. HBO has been doing them for years with great reception and really pushing the boundaries. But even the networks and cable channels are starting to have success with these shows – Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Mad Men to name a few examples off the top of my head.

            I know for me, once I watched a show like The Wire, it's hard for me to watch a "regular" show now because they just seem so vapid and limited in comparison.

            GRRM has stated that they are full aware of the challenges the show will have, and that it will just get more expensive and challenging with each season – I think he said he was just glad that was D&D's job and not his, heh.

          • I remember that. I think he basically even stated that it was written to show things you could do in books that you can't do on television.

            I've been advocating the idea of season-long one-shot shows that are written to tell a complete story in 13 episodes. It's a lot harder to "jump the shark" if you have a built-in end you're working towards.

          • Yeah, GRRM has stated on multiple occasions that part of his impetus to write the series to begin with was that, while he was working in Hollywood, he was tired of being told that every script he turned in was too big, too elaborate, too expensive. Writing a series, of course, he could make it as big an complex and "expensive" as he wanted, since fantastical words don't cost any more than mundane ones. It is deliciously ironic, then, that these are the stories that will be made into a full-fledged series.

            Season 1 is definitely doable from a modern television perspective. Season 2, however, will be an immense challenge if it is even to begin to approach the book. The Battle of the Blackwater is the sort of thing that makes an executive producer's head explode.

          • Yea, and reading between the lines of a few comments GRRM has made, I think they are confident the first season will have its challenges, but that they will be able to remain pretty much faithful to the text. But he seemed to hint at the fact that starting with season 2 some more difficult decisions may have to be made.

            And I am fully prepared to accept the fact that we probably won't see the Battle of Blackwater as written in the book. It is a battle that would probably put Helm's Deep to shame – with the scale, the hundreds of boats, King's Landing, the wildfire, the chaos, etc.

            I would love to see them pull it off, it'd be amazing TV if they were able to. But the last episode of The Tudors I saw had a "battle" and it honestly looked like a civil war reenactment with some cheap special effects thrown in. GoT may have a larger budget than The Tudors and better people working on it, but I don't think they have anywhere near the time, resources and budget that a production like LOTR had.

            I think if season one is a big hit, they will have a lot more to work with for season two, which may be what they are hoping for… if it is just a mediocre hit we may have to see lots of corners cut and three seasons if we are lucky… no basis for this, just my assumption.

          • I've always thought that if they give it more than one season but still decide to cut it early it will probably last to season three, because it's a nice "stopping point."

            That said, I really think it can go the distance.

          • Stopping at season 3 would be def. better than season 2, but it would be almost as bad as the way Deadwood ended. I don't even think Shakespeare would write a story with so much buildup that just ends shortly after the Red Wedding with no resolution…. people would / will be PISSED, heh.

          • Stopping right after the one Arya chapter would be best (= most horrible) ending of a series. EVAR.

          • I know exactly the Arya chapter you're referring to. When I read that…

            I totally thought he called Arya, I was talking to my friend that introduced me to the book and he asked me where Arya was and I told him she was dead and he was like HUH? and ruined it for me before I got to another chapter but apparently he read it as he knocked her out, not as he killed her. I felt dumb lol was I the only one who thought that the Hound killed her?

            **********END SPOILER *********

            That will definitely be an episode cliffhanger at the very least. It would be like OMG on top of everything that had already happened in the chapters before.

    • I do agree that we don't need Dany in every episode – or even every other episode. As the Gude Dude pointed out, shows like HBO's THE WIRE successfully kept an excellent story whirling in front of us even when certain storylines were skipped for multiple episodes on end.

      The end product should be a quality show — period. If the script is able to encapsulate the story as it should, we will remain engaged and entertained throughout.

      That said, for this episode I was actually entertaining some sort of end montage with a single-character voice-over (Catelyn maybe) that had quick shots of all the primary story characters … something having to do with "Unexpected turns in the road" that would have included a shot of Dany showing some unexpected intimacy toward Drogo (to showcase her slowly evolving feelings for him) …

      I even wrote it out, but in the end thought it felt a bit too Wisteria Lane for GoT. We can be reminded of Dany's story when the TV says: "Next week on Game of Thrones…"

      Episode 6 has plenty of Daenerys.

      • I wouldn't mind at all if they decided to skip the TV voices ("Previously … / Next week …") entirely. The repetition at the beginning isn't so irritating (but doesn't do wonders to the mood either), but the 'next week' stuff is a big turn off for me. I simply hate it and try to grab the remote control as fast as I can to switch off the tv.

        I don't think the audience would need any extra reminders. Dany and Jon will be easy to remember, because the Wall and the Dothraki are so different they stick out from the rest of the characters.

        • I never watch the "Next On," like you, I'm always reaching for the remote as fast as I can.

          I'm indifferent towards the previously… and I'm sure it will be there. It's a show that asks a lot from the viewer, so I'm sure they will do whatever they can to help the viewer remember who and what and where things are happening. And it's so commonplace now that I don't find it very distracting.

          • It might not be for us (the built-in fanbase us), but "Previously On Game of Thrones …" will likely be a necessity for most others. There are just too many different stories swirling around for the new-to-GoT layman to be expected to just casually pick up where last week left off. I'd bet half my house (and my little dog too) that HBO will employ that tried-and-true reminder.

            Is "Next on …" necessary? Nope. But unlike movie trailers (which usually seem to show too much, in my view), those little teasers rarely give too much away for television shows. I enjoy 'em; whets my whistle, so to speak. But as with most things, YMMV.

  • A bit off topic, but not sure if anyone is still looking at the Tamsin Egerton post, so I'll mention it here. Apparently she is cast as Guinevere in Camelot. Amazingly, they apparently have Eva Green cast as Morgan La Fay (great casting choice, surprised they got her!).

    This article is in French, I used a translator to get the information:

      • Furthermore, that movie is a guaranteed cash cow… and with the people they had lined up to work on it, there's like a 2% chance of it not being awesome. It's sad to see all the issues the production has had, its been in pre-production for like 3 years and they still haven't gotten a green light. Crazy.

        • I agree it's insane. In Hollywood, there's no such thing as a real slam-dunk, but The Hobbit is as close as you can get.

          What the Hell are they thinking?

          Of course you can also address the rumor mill, which says Del Toro was dead set against doing The Hobbit in 3-D … and that's what the studio wants now (that's just about what all studios want now) … and THAT stare-down was the final straw. But I don't have any facts with regard to that either way.

          • It's a good thing. If Del Toro got out, it's a good reason. The man has a spotless record.

          • If Del Toro had to sell out, it would be an inferior movie. Given the known circumstance, it's a good thing he dropped out.

            A "producers versus director" film always ends up skewed (latest publicized example, Where the Wild Things Are).

            Is the movie really truly split into two as shows in imdb? A two-part in 3-D? Talk about cash cow. The whole idea stinks of max dollar.

    • The only way this could turn out good is if Peter Jackson decides to direct it. During the early script writing, Jackson said several times that he was having a lot of fun and was almost starting to regret / have second thoughts about giving up the chance to direct. If PJ is back at the helm, I think it will turn out okay. I can't think of any other directors I'd be really excited about or happy with, however.

      • I actuallymightsort of hope Jackson wouldn't direct The Hobbit. He's a very good director when it comes to smaller scale films (Heavenly Creatures is one of the best films I've ever seen), but he seems to get a little bit carried away with epic stuff. Too much of pompousness, emphasizing, special effects, extended battle scenes… etc. Which is why I was very enthusiastic about Del Toro. I thought he might exceed Jackson's take on Middle Earth. And it also felt nice just for variety's sake that we'd be able to see someone else's vision about Tolkien's world.

        But Jackson is a good choice nevertheless. He is a decent director and at this point he knows The Hobbit the film-to-be very well. It could be difficult for some brand new director just to jump in.

      • Alfonso Cuaron could do it justice. While I like Del Toro, I don't think he was the only one that could do it. I think Jackson will probably end up doing it when all is said and done.

        • I agree. It's funny how people start always to say "X is/was *the only one* who could direct/act/whatever Y" if X is (thought to be) *just successful*. It happened with Jackson, it happened with most actors in LotR, it seems to be happening with GoT. I've read some old casting threads and back then people had a lot of opinions who could play whom. Even Dinklage as Tyrion had some competitors, but now he is widely declared as the only choice. And we haven't seen even a promotional picture of him, not to mention his performance as Tyrion. (This is not to say I'd oppose Dinklage as Tyrion. As far as I know, he's probably the best choice, but he never was the only choice, imo.)

      • I've seen Pan's Labyrinth, the Hellboy movies and The Devil's Backbone… I thought all were really good, with Pan's Labyrinth standing out. I don't think he's done enough movies to have a LOT of terrible movies, if if all his movies were terrible, that would still just be a FEW terrible movies… just sayin'. :)

        I was definitely looking forward to seeing his creative stamp put on The Hobbit because in terms of visuals and creativity, I thought Pan's Labyrinth is at the top of just about anything I've seen.

        • I know. I was very excited about some of the visuals Del Toro was going to bring to The Hobbit. These included re-designing Jackson's ugly wargs to make them look more like proper wolves, pushing (and passing) the limits of animatronic technology, and making Smaug the best movie dragon of all time. Hopefully they still keep many of his design ideas.

  • I'd work it a slightly different way myself. I'd have the whole tourney take place over the same episode as I think that feels nicer from a structural perspective. In order to give Ned's storyline an episodic feel I'd add a coupla scenes showing the increasing tension between Ned and Robert and then end his story with him resigning as Hand. With the introduction of Loras I'd establish his closeness to Renly, and as I couldn't remember when Renly showed Ned the locket of Margaery I put it in here as well.

    Cat's story will go from capturing Tyrion through to arrival at the Eyrie, which will end the episode because really, Lysa and Robert being absolutely mental is too good a cliffhanger not to use.

    I did actually fit Dany in this episode, specifically the arrival in Vaes Dothrak and Viserys's rejection of her gifts. Jon also gets in with his scheming to get Sam accepted as a full brother of the Watch.

    The main change I'd make would involve Arya. Her chapter with Varys and Illyrio is fairly isolated and can be moved quite easily. All you need to do is change the details of the political events that they talk about. So I pushed it back to episode 6, my thinking being that I didn't want to reveal an extra layer of political intrigue until later in the season.

    • Interesting. I was actually trying to see if I could move the Arya overhears Varys & Illyrio scene in the catacombs to earlier rather than later. That way when Varys visits Ned in disguise, the audience just heard "If one Hand can die, why not the other?" and wonders if Varys isn't about to try to assassinate Ned; you then juxtapose that with Jaime sneaking past a snoring Robert and the initial feel would be Assassins are running amok in the Red Keep!

      Even though neither are in fact assassins. In the end I decided against it, however. I could see moving Arya's catacomb adventure to episode six, sure.

      Having the Hand's Tourney take place over a single episode might be nice too, though you'd need to sacrifice something for space, and I'm not sure I want to lose Cat and Tyrion's overland trek; we'd miss out on a fight with clansmen, we'd miss her reunion with the Blackfish (I personally skipped over the meeting with Ser Donnel Waynwood and went right to the Blackfish), but mostly we'd lose the perspective of time passing on this long journey. Even if you shorten it to a montage — like I did with the journey through the three waycastles — it needs to be seen as time consuming.

      How many pages did yours come out to?

      • 74 pages, plus a few small extras. I'm quite shocked yours takes up more pages cause it feels like mine's got a lot more packed in there.

        Having said that, both Jon and Dany's stories are pretty short with only 3-4 scenes in the episode. As for Cat and Tyrion's trek, it's quite a lot of pages but all together it shouldn't take up too much screen time as a lot of it is just describing the travelling. Plus, I cut Mya Stone and that also saves on time.

        • Mine's at 62 pages. Unfortunately, 74 would be deemed much too long; even for HBO, which doesn't mind "approximating" its one-hour television show mantra. I have seen HBO scripts go as long as 66 pages and as short as 52 page, but never in the 70's.

          If we're talking about having the Hand's Tourney all in once episode (again–works for me; it's a more complete telling that way) we need to look for other things to cut.

          I might even consider sticking all of the Hand's Tourney into episode 4 if we could somehow work that out.

          • Hmm, you do indeed have a point. In that case my best bet would be to shift Dany's stories one episode earlier because I already had a Dany-free episode and 3/4 both came in shorter than this one. How's that?

  • This is really awesome! If the HBO show is written half this well (with so many clever cuts and scandalous imaginings) I'll be a lucky girl. Excellent job, and thanks for the epic read!

  • It is slitely off topic, but I have noticed that you used flashbacks in your script.
    I think you arranged them fine.
    I was wondering a lot – after we saw the leaked script without any flashbacks – if it would be any flashbacks in the series at all?
    I would be very satisfied if they put in a few (battle of the Trident, Jaime is sitting on the Iron Throne wihle Ned marches in the throne roome).
    I think that these are the scenes not only my wish, but also very useful for the audience to understand the events happened before and provoked many things covered by the main plot in the series.

    • I don't have too much hope for flashbacks, as needed as they are. The would be too expensive just for a few moments of screen time, I think.

      Still, it would be a blast to be able to see Harrehal's Journey or The Battle of the Trident

    • Some people don't like flashbacks. I do, however, if used sparingly. I would certainly use them for the Trident … though for the scene of Robert killing Rhaegar I'd keep the men helmeted, obscuring their faces.

      More telling are Catelyn's flashbacks; there's a great scene when Robb is about to begin the Battle of Whispering Wood where she recalls everyone who's said goodbye to her over the years (her father Lord Hoster, Brandon Stark, Ned at Winterfell) even as Robb says farewell to her. I think it is a poignant scene that would help the impact of what follows. Were I writing it, I would put that flashback at the top of my list.

      Less important but equally nice is Catelyn's remembrance of Brandon Stark dueling young Petyr Baelish; I think showing a younger, more naive Petyr will help serve as a nice little omen for things to come.

      So were it me, yes, I would include most of the flashbacks George R. R. Martin wrote into A Game of Thrones. At least 75% of them.

      • Personally I'm against flashbacks in GoT. For starters, there's the extra cost involved of casting more actors and potentially more sets/locations as well. For more, cutting out all the flashbacks will free up a whole load of screentime.

        If you really did want to show flashbacks, I'd like to see them produced differently, more like a series of stills with narration from the present-day characters over the top. I reckon with (for example) Meera's story of the Harrenhal tournament that would look really good. Plus, no speaking actors means less cost.

        • I, for my part, would very much like flashbacks. They give Westeros the sense of history and with this, make it seem more like a real and credible world. They show that a lot has happened before and it still affects. The protagonists aren't living in a bubble, specially designed for them, they are simply a part of larger world, with past, present and future.

          How to show this with style and within the budget is naturally a different matter. But I hope they'll figure out something. Your suggestion seems definetely to be a possible way.

          • That would be a great idea to cut costs. I'm all for it, so long as the information gets out. They could even stylize it enough so as to have the still appear to be various works of art, like, say … figures in a stained glass window for one, or carved in stone on another, or illustrated with Ye Olde Faency lettering in a thick book.

        • @Monkey, how do you convey Ned remembering Lyanna on her death bed saying "Promise me Ned, promise me" if you don't use a flashback?
          I admit you could convey her voice in his head, but how are you to tell the viewer whose voice it is Ned is remembering and when he heard it?
          In this case, no present-day character could narrate this story beacuse no one else was there but Ned, and Ned keeps it secret, so he's not about to tell it to anybody… unless you make him talk to himself in the weirwood or his cell, but it IMO would seem funny…
          Or he could hear the voice while wacthing Lyanna's statue in the crypts, but again, you lose the notion of when this happened, i.e. on her death bed, which is very important to establish some doubt as to Jon's true origin…
          I can almost see this flashback of Lyanna on her deathbed, covered with blood and extending her arms towards Ned (without showing us her hands) while saying "Promise me", and letting us imagine she could be handing him a baby….

  • I would very much like flashbacks, too, but I am completely aware of stuff Monkey is talking about (budget, costs, sets, etc).
    I could guess they would use some flashbacks, but only the ones which are necessary to the story.
    Like Trident, Jaime and Ned in the Throne Room etc…

    The stuff like Tower of Joy (I know it would be pretty awersome as a scene) would depend, IMO, about importance of TOJ to the main plot ( if theroy R+L= J is valid one or just red herring – please, do not start the debate, here :D).

  • Nice script FaBio!
    I agree with Monkey though about the tourney being more of a complete story line if it all happened in the same episode and I wouldn’t skip over the Ned-Robert dialogue to discourage the king to take part in the melee.
    If you want to had a Cersei/Jaime scene, I would use it to show Jaime frustrated over Tyrion being taken and Cersei perhaps agreeing that though Tyrion is nothing to her, they cannot allow such an insult to Lannister pride and them complotting Jaime’s intervention with Ned without giving us the details, the lust taking over the business…
    I would break down Catelyn/Tyrion scenes and mix them in all over the episode to better convey the time that passes between the scenes since they are travelling.
    And like Ser G, I imagined Dany’s chapter being broken into many small scenes + added scenes for things we are told happened in between her chapters, to follow her more regularly throughout the episodes and better convey the idea of the distance (time) she travels.

    • Speaking of Jaime/Cersei, I’m somewhat worried about Jaime’s role in the series. I absolutely love the way Martin has dealt with him. Jaime was a despicable villain in AGOT, then, at the end of ACOK he picked up our interest, and in ASOS & AFFC he became somebody we could sympathize with and even like. His character arc is a rare treat.

      Now, I know that Jaime’s role in GoT seems to be bigger. The problem is I really don’t see how they could do that without losing something in Jaime’s transformation. If they keep him as a villain in the first season, what kind of extra moments can he have? More biting comments? Not going to work, I’m afraid. We love the snarky ones. More sex scenes with Cersei? Then he’d become a sex symbol – again, not a good thing if we want Jaime to be disliked. And I personally would hate if he became some sort of another Jason (True Blood), a guy whose contribution to the plot consists mainly him having sex again and again and again (boring!).

      The other way to deal with Jaime would be letting him have scenes like you suggested (worrying about Tyrion and then having sex with Cersei). Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good scene; Jaime is very much in character there. But would that give away too much too soon? Would Jaime become too likeable? Tyrion is surely a fan favourite at that point and if Jaime cares *noticeable* for him, the audience will like Jaime for being worried about Tyrion. It was more subtle and and more hidden in the books – e.g. Jaime’s confrontation with Ned could also be explained by family pride, like you mentioned with Cersei.

  • Finally had a chance to read your outline FaB and I have to say I thought it was very good. A couple of observations:

    – Glad to see that even though Desmond is gone, his infamous line lives on. Though I wonder if Jory might not be the one to deliver it. I imagine they are going to want to give Jory a decent amount of screen time, to make his death more meaningful. Plus you get the irony of him ending up dying at the end of this episode in a scenario with odds not too unlike what he has mentioned.

    -As much as I would love to see a flashback of the Blackfish, I have to imagine a less time-consuming way of getting his backstory would be in dialogue. Something like…

    CATELYN: You haven't changed a bit, uncle. I gather you still haven't taken a wife?

    BRYNDEN (smiling): Still a lonely bachelor.

    CATELYN: Well father always said you were the "black goat" of the family.

    BRYNDEN: That he did. But I think Blackfish suits me better. I'm still a Tully, after all.

    CATELYN: Well you'll always be Uncle Brynden to me.

    BRYNDEN: And you'll always be my little Cat.

    Catelyn smiles.

    CATELYN: So how is my sweet sister?

    BRYNDEN (serious): Not well, I'm afraid.

    I'm sure David & Dan could write this better than me, but you get the idea. This would free up almost 2 whole pages of script for other scenes. (Maybe a brief Dany scene?) I think, like others have said, that if they include flashbacks it will be for the really important stuff. The Blackfish just isn't a big enough character to get his own flashback, as awesome as that would be.

    • That Catelyn / Blackfish scene would take care of any needed flashbacks. Good call! I would leave the term "sweet sister" to Lannister and Targaryen lips, however; we get enough of that phrase from Viserys, Tyrion, and Jaime.

      I also like having Jory speak Desmond's line, though it loses its irony if Ned's men are indeed outnumbered nearly ten to one when Jory dies. Maybe if we chop the number of Lannisters down to six or eight it would work; have Wil and Heward both lose one-on-one fights and have Jaime winning against Ned before some treachery ends the fight prematurely and takes Ned's horse out from under him.

      • Good point about the "sweet sister" phrase. Was just trying to make the dialogue sound "GRRMish" (yeah, I just made up a word, you wanna fight about it?). But "sweet sister" is definitely a Lannister thing. "Dear sister" would probably work better in this instance.

  • The show should avoid flashbacks entirely. Instead, each episode could open with a medieval-style illustration – as if out of a history book – of a scene and a voice over (maybe Old Nan) recounting the 'accepted' version of events ('Lyanna was abducted' rather than the *possible* truth). This would allow the producers to film the true version of past events and possibly even release a War of the Usurper movie once all its secrets have been published.

    The most important thing is finding a way to respect how the history recounted by characters within the novels is often radically different from the actual occurences. TV is too visual for dialogue recounts, but showing live actors enact a false history would be problematic as well. Minor stuff like Catelyn and Blackfish's personal history doesn't need anymore more than a new line of dialogue (see WIC above).

    • And when I say medieval art, I mean stuff like this:….

      Try to imagine Tywin presenting a couple of bodies to a young Robert with Gregor, Lorch, and Jaime in the background, with some sigils at the top of the screen.

      The art in LOTR (like the painting behind the shattered sword) reflected Middle Earth well, but it's too fancy for ASOIAF in my opinion.

  • I'm not trying to criticize to harshly but I feel that this kind of post (scripting episodes) is very close to fan fiction and is nothing more than idle speculation. As the scripts are being written by professionals already I don't really see the value in doing it here. Furthermore I feel it takes some of the credibilty away from your website. I come here for news relating to the series and entries like this blur the line as far as what this websites identity is. It is of course not my site so do what you will but please give some this some thought.

    • I've always ignored these posts as they are not why I come here (I came for the gang bang). I also agree about the site credibility.

      On the other hand, it must be fun for this site's moderators to have an audience for their impassioned work. I think they should do whatever they feel like. But evidently these posts are not a draw..

    • I disagree wholeheartedly. To me, there is a clear line between what is news and what is speculation here. And with the lack of real news in the last 3 months, this blog would've slowed to a crawl and lost most of its reader's interest without any speculation and discussion. I would say that once the news picks up, which it definitely will at some point in the next year, it might be better to focus more on that.

      I personally think reading stuff like this is a lot of fun, and though its fan fiction, its very well thought out and written by very knowledgeable fans… so it lets our imagination run wild a bit, while still giving as a good idea of we we may see in each episode.

      This is, of course, one man's opinion.

    • Although I always skip these scripting entries, I do disagree with you. It is indeed idle speculation, just like the casting choices for Petyr, Tywin and so forth. It brings out a lot of good discussion, if you just want the news it's quite easy to filter the posts on this blog, as the tag of this post is "speculation." People see value in this as they see value in sportsgames being analyzed weeks before they are played, it's innocent fun.

      This will always be a site created by a fan for other fans, and it happens to be we other fans like to speculate a LOT. This doesn't mean it won't remain a high credible source for GoT news.

    • I tend to skip these posts as well, and I have wondered about their usefulness… but I also think they have helped during the last three EXTREMELY dry months. Also, they're quite easy to ignore if you are not interested, so I don't see the harm.

    • Criticize away! We are not immune to it. In fact, I believe even a harsh critique invites healthy discussion, and what else do we have to do between these informational dry spells?

      I did indeed put forth this scripting idea to Winter in order to add "filler," so to speak. If the powers-that-be at HBO decide to start releasing, say, one production photo per week, plus casting news or production tidbits, I'd be the first to tell you we don't need any of this speculative crud at all.

      Alas, that's not the case. We stand within the driest of dry spells. And of course I'm always curious as to what other people think will or won't be included in the series. I just like reading that sort of stuff. A lot of people don't, and for them … hey. Move along. Nothing to see here. Seeya next post.

      As to it being fan fiction … mmmm … I'm not sure. Perhaps a tiny percentage is fan fiction, if you count the small amount of "added" scenes (though for the most part those are merely outlined, not scripted). But 99% of this stuff is already canon from the books. We're just rearranging it into TV-sized bites and speculating on whether or not we'll see it – and when (thus it falls under the "Speculation" tag).

      If we get a cease and desist from GRRM or HBO regarding the scripting stuff, we would immediately comply; our aim is to serve the inner nerd in all of us and to follow production as closely as possible. I personally want us to be to GAME OF THRONES what is to LORD OF THE RINGS – if not more. (Apples and oranges, you could argue, since is equally dedicated to Tolkien's books, if not more, but you get the gist.) Making enemies of GRRM, or Dave, D.B., or anyone else in HBO is not our goal. Closing doors rather than opening them does not serve the fanbase. The production people know us, they follow us. They'll tell us if we piss them off.

      That said (this is slightly off-topic), we're not here to softball the show. We've been criticized in the past for being "fanboyish" about the production, lacking in sharp or open criticism, but I will defend our stance any time anyone asks about it. We haven't seen anything that makes us fear for the show in any way. You cannot judge an unfinished product, and the only one we have is one still photo of Will and some dead wildlings, and to me … hey, the snow looks fine. And I like Will's cloak.

      When we see more finished product, we'll be more critical, both positive and negative. And the negative won't be to just sling mud pies; if we point out something that goes awry with the show, we expect it will be commented on by the fanbase at large. And if there is enough consensus as to a "wrong," I would like to think we could influence some sort of change for the next season (assuming there is one). That's not hubris, that's merely offering a large platform with which fans can be heard.

      I am personally very critical of today's television, so I am immensely curious to see this finished product. I suspect it will be very good. I suspect it will be one of the most gripping television shows of all time. All signs thus far point to that. So far they are doing everything right.

      Well, except for releasing timely tidbits to the fans.

      But then that's why you have us. To help fill in the dog days. Cheers!

      • To me it seems as if there is a fusion between fans and people of the trade here. A good mix. It seems to me as if the site is on a healthy middleground.

        I think all the posts are very thought trough and sober.

        I know there are fans here that turn every thread into speculative gossip…I for one….but it seems to me as if the site is resisting to get swept away and keeps a cool head.

        I actually find the critique a bit unfair. They do a heck of a job to keep this site a blog of facts and news and the speculations are pure journalism.

        If this site would stick to pure facts and only what is written in stone it would make for very boring reading….as would any journalism without a speculative touch.
        Then it would only be a secondhand rendition of second hand facts.

        Many speculative posts have turned out to become truth because they are never far fetched.

        And lastly, posts that arent to ones taste are easily avoidable.

        Keep ut the good work.
        It is no wonder this is the worlds leading news-site concerning GoT.

      • Well said, Fire and Blood. Don't know I have much more to add other than the fact that if you can't stand the sight of idle speculation and discussion then bookmark this link:

        If you visit us via that link you will get only the posts reporting solid news from GRRM, David & Dan or HBO.

        If you are like myself (and I suspect most of you are) then continue visiting the site at the domain and enjoy all the rumors, speculation and discussion your heart desires. :)

        • Yeah, I think things are pretty clear: I do not read posts or comments I do not consider interesting.
          But I do know that there are people who like it – for example: the debate about GREGOR. :D.
          So let them debate about GREGOR, I would not mind it. They like GREGOR, I do not :D

          I will discuss the things I like.

          I like speculations, for my part, especially in the days (months) like these.

          Btw, I asked Mo Ryan the other day if we could expect any news soon. – She replied that she did not know, and mentioned something like: maybe at Comic con….

          Heh. If we are going to wait till the Comic con – we will start dying of waiting soon :D

          Another thing (half-speculation) posted yesterday on the GREGOR-casting related blogpost – the news about Katarina Gellin – she is going for Doreah.

      • Forgive me for being stupid, but I don't understand this fan fiction thing at all. I have a very little interest in it, but neither do I want to condamn it. It's pretty harmless fun for those who want to develop their writing skills or spend more time with their favourite characters, isn't it?

        I know that GRRM himself disapproves fan fiction, and while I consider it proper to respect the author's views, I also try to pay attention to the reasons he has. The blog post GRRM wrote some weeks ago was mainly concerned about legal rights and income, but if a fan fictioner doesn't try to make money or claim he or she has invented the characters, there is no harm done, is there?

        So, what I would like to know is why all ASOIAF fans seem to whole-heartedly agree that fan fiction is a bad thing, like, by definition? Is it because GRRM thinks so? Or don't you just personally like it or find it interesting?

        • I ll answer you for my part. I haven t any interest in fan fiction at all. Never had, even before I was aware of GRRMs existance.
          But on the other hand, I very much like fan art – images and illustrations.
          I found fantastic stuff on Devinat, not to mentions professionals illustrating for GRRMs calendars.
          As for GRRMs post about fanfic – I red it a bit – and as I understood it it was not all in the legal rights and income
          That is one side of a problem, according to GRRM, the other is his "emotional connection" to his characters – or something like that.

          And for is it a good thing or the bad – Do not know, you can consider it by several points of view.
          To be honest – as I have the same interest in it as in GREGOR :D, I do not think about it at all.

          • Yes, I can understand what you're saying. As I said, I'm not a fan fictioner myself, but I realise there are a lot of people who find it enjoyable. I consider fan fiction to be harmless fun, when I bother to think about it ;) Which is why I've been a little surprised by the overall (and quite ferocious) objection it has received. It shouldn't be a big deal.

            As for GRRM's emotional connection, well, I can understand that as well. But on the other hand, if you're a writer and your work is being published, you have to accept that everyone isn't going to have a similar reaction to the characters than you yourself have. For example, I've read some very hateful opinions (not fan fiction, just in normal discussion) about Sansa and I cannot see how GRRM could be feeling more happy about those. Yet, as far as I know, he hasn't tried to control the discussion. (Which is of course very good, I just don't see why he felt the need to do that to fan fiction)

            Oh, and I definetely agree with you about fan art. There are some real masterpieces out there.

          • All of what GRRM has said about legal rights is essentially correct, and it is irrelevant whether or not a fan fictioner is trying to make money. Okay, not irrelevant, because trying to make money off of copyrighted work is worse than distributing your own derivative works for free.

            Copyright law is designed to protect the right of authors to make a living, and it applies equally to all authors–good or bad, successful or not–and it is important to remember that distributing new stories about somebody else's characters can potentially take readers away from the original author's works.

          • Consider, for instance, a writer who publishes only in online publications, which are now a venue for new writers. Some reader likes it and writes a new story featuring the same characters in the same world, and publishes it for free on a personal blog. If the first writer continues to publish on subscription sites, and the fan-fiction writer continues to publish for free, and both write decent stories about the same characters, it is easy to see that some readers will come to read the free material more often than the pay material. Why pay when you can get something for free, after all? As a result, the original creator of those works suffers both financially and from the loss of control over his own work.

          • And the loss of control issue is quite real. Copyrights, as well as other intellectual property, are considered abandoned when used without permission, if the owner does nothing to stop that use once it is discovered. (It works that way with other property, too, for what its worth.)

            That's my two cents. I have a knee-jerk reaction to people trying to argue that fan fiction isn't copyright infringement because nobody makes money off of it. That's like saying that lime wire isn't copyright infringement because nobody makes money off of it.

          • I think I agree with you. There were a lot of words and I might have skipped a few. I saw on the wikipedia page about fan fiction that some authors don't want fan fiction based on their characters to be distributed for any reason. Their will can be done when the legal request is passed to a site like

          • I think I should also add that there are more nuances and exceptions involved than I can possibly add in comments, so please please please don't assume that anything in the law can be considered absolute.

            You bring up one such nuance, which is the express permission (or not) by the author. Authors can generally make it known that they don't mind fan fiction being distributed under certain circumstance–for instance, only for free and with credit given to the author. Then you would be entitled to do as you like in those limitations.

          • Okay, thanks for the detailed answer, Kyle. I know very little of fan fiction, so it’s nice to get a better perspective to it. You pointed out some serious problems. But as you said, there are also a lot of nuances and exceptions, so it’s not easy (at least for me) to decide what to think. For example, that new online writer of yours is such an exception. As far as I know, most of the fan fictioners write on well-known subjects, like Harry Potter or Lost. In these cases, the original work is such a phenomenon that it’s hard to see how the fan fictioners could cause serious harm. More likely, they just end up promoting the original work by their writings, and keeping the buzz alive while waiting the new book/season/whathaveyou. I guess it might be said (despite sounding somewhat pompous) that the fan fiction situation comes down to a classical democracy problem: how to take into account the will of the many, but to maintain the rights of the few. There is no easy solution, which could be applied to all cases. The fan fictioner of an online writer is in a very different position compared to the fan fictioner of a tv-series like Lost, for example. I most certainly haven’t thought this fan fiction thing through, but my knee-jerk reaction to it is tied up with my respect for freedom of speech and all that jazz.

        • Fan Fiction is like a dream you had last night. No one is interested in hearing about it except yourself.

          • Well, if I'm right, there are a lot of people who read lots of fan fiction. So many are interested, in fact.

          • Heh, after reading my post again, I notice how well I formulated it. At first I wanted to say to Pitanucci that 'you're wrong', but it sounded so rude I decided to change it to 'I'm right' (and made some other adjustments as well). Clever, huh? :)

            Thanks for the wiki link. The history part was especially interesting.

          • You also have to consider that in ASoIaF case, the series isn't done yet. And given the time between each publication, a lot of fan fiction could be published during that time. Fans expect GRRM to surprise them and be original. But the more time he takes to perfect his work, the more the chances a fan fiction would already have explored a similar twist of plot or a similar continuation of plot as the one GRRM intended, thus ruining the orignality of his book when he finally publishes it.
            Moreover, the overzealous fan fiction author could decide to sue GRRM for copying his ideas and making money out of it, claiming he thought of it first.
            And no one could expect GRRM to read every fan fiction and change his story every time one of them steers too close to the story he's writing. Now all this rewriting would blow away any chance of us ever seeing ADWD in our lifetime.

            You see the potential problem…

          • Well, actually no, I don't see it.

            All you say could also be applied to normal discussion, couldn't it? Westeros forums for example are full of different theories and speculations and some of them are bound to be (at least partly) correct. But no one suggests that the discussion should be restricted or stopped. And no one expects GRRM to read all the messages and change his story accordingly. (Haven't he actually said he doesn't follow the discussion so that he wouldn't be influenced?)

            How is this any different compared to fan fiction? I'm sorry if I'm harping on the same string, but I really cannot understand what's so wrong about it.

          • I see your point, but IMO, such discussions are intended as speculation between members of a forum or group, whereas fan fiction is written in the form of a complete story and published to be read by the public at large…
            that's where I draw the line, but I admit it's not crystal clear.

          • The lesson we have learned here is that a boring (evidently) discussion about fan fiction is more exciting than an exciting (presumably) fan script of episode 5.

          • I wouldn’t draw line there, because I consider that fan fictioners also form a group. They write as fans, to themselves and to another fans, not to the whole world. Or so I would think. Outsiders might read their writings, but outsiders might also read the discussions from the forums. (I actually am that kind of outsider. I’ve never bothered to log in to Westeros, but I occasionally go there to read some threads)

            It’s true that the form of the speculations in the forums is different to complete stories made by fan fictioners, but how significant is that? I mean, if we are talking about “plagiarism” in the idea level (certain plot twist etc), I don’t see how a fan fictioner would be any different from a forum member. If we are talking about “plagiarism” in the sentence/chapter level, I’d say it’s very unlikely that there would be that kind of massive similarities between the original author’s and the fan fictioner’s writings even though the fan fictioner would try to imitate the style of the author.

            I’m far from an expert in legal matters, but I tentatively think that a possible solution to this would be that fan fictioners, forum members and other internet users would agree not to make any demands even if they happened to figure out the same idea the author has also invented. Perhaps in some cases the author could steal someone else’s idea, but that would be “the price” for posting it to internet where anyone can read it. If some fan had a brilliant idea they wanted to use themselves and make money with it, then why not a write a book of their own. Okay, this probably is full of obvious mistakes and such, but I like simplicity now and then :)

          • Yes, but that's the way of the world, really. Anything can lead to problems, especially if someone (= e.g. lawyer) really tries to make things problematic .

          • I';ve always joked that the "Clearance & Copyright" class name should be rewritten as, "Why You Should Never Ever Make a Film, Book, or Television Show (Ever)."

    • To me it's a bit worse than idle speculation and falls into a different category than fan fiction. Maybe this is me being over-cautious, but there's a well-publicized example of, back in the UseNet days, of fan speculation on Babylon 5 causing a real detriment to the show. After the concept of "Mindwiping" was introduced in an early season, a fan speculated something along the lines of "Wouldn't it be cool if they did an episode where someone who was mindwiped started having flashbacks to something really horrible he'd done in the past?"

      J. Michael Straczynski (the creator of B5) actually had that idea for an upcoming show, but then couldn't do it for fear of being accused, either informally or legally, of stealing the fan's idea. They actually had to track the fan down and get him to sign something that said that they had had the idea independently and that he took no legal ownership of it. The result was that the episode being planned wasn't made until a later season than they wanted.

      This sort of thing can be fun, and is certainly being done with a harmless intent, but I think it's important that we (as the fanbase) not cross a line where we get into a level of detail where it can be perceived that we're impeding the ability of the people who are being paid to create this show to do their jobs. It's one thing to say "Oh they should totally make X point in the books be a cliffhanger at the end of an episode," another thing entirely to get into a detailed scene-by-scene outline.

      Somewhat ironically, it's not a bad thing if we're completely off from what the creators of the show intend. It's much worse if we're spot on. How bad would it look if what turns up on the show matches what's written here exactly?

    • If you take a minute and create an IntenseDebate account, you can edit your posts after you've posted them. :)