As Seen on TV: Thrones may change your perception of characters
By Winter Is Coming on in Editorial, Speculation.

Game of Thrones on TVAs we wait for the next batch of promotional material, this seems like a good time to bring up a discussion topic that has been batted around in the comments of various posts, but never fully explored. That is the question of which character do you think will see the largest rise in popularity once the show airs?

The change in medium is going to bring about some change in people’s perception of a character. Sansa may garner more sympathy, Catelyn more respect, Cersei more understanding, etcetera, etcetera. This also ties in with the concept of “teams” as popularized by the Twilight series. Will Team Robb grow in number versus Team Jon for the show as opposed to the books?

Personally I think the concept of “teams” doesn’t really apply to this series as most of these characters aren’t obvious rivals the way Edward and that wolf guy who I can’t remember the name of right now are. However I do think there is truth in the belief that certain characters will come across slightly different on screen as they do on paper. It is inevitable. Especially when you have new viewers bringing in completely unbiased views on these characters.

So what do you think? Who will see the largest rise in popularity once the series airs? Which hated character from the books will become more loved? And vice versa? And if you had to pick a “team” which would it be?


248 Comments

  1. Aerox
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think it will be all that much different than the characters who are already popular from the books.

    If all the pre-show buzz about how amazing the child actors are is correct, I think Arya will be the hands-down fan favorite of most people who watch the show. Tyrion will also probably be extremely popular.

  2. Andemir Duman
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    I think,Mountain that Rides
    kick some ass:)

  3. ari
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Jon will sweep the teen demographic, hands down.

    Based on what we’ve seen so far, Arya, Bran, Littlefinger, and Tyrion will have a following.

  4. Evoldoer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Hodor Hodor!!!

  5. C. Huneycutt
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    I have wanted to make a shirt that says “I ride with the Imp” for a while now. The show might just convince me to make it a reality. Sandor is another personal favorite of mine, but aside from them, I actually find myself most excited about seeing Samwell “brought to life.” Though, in the end, I always root for Dany.

    I refuse to buy into or use this “Team” business. The jargon doesn’t fit with the world! Declare your allegiance to a house or get out of Westeros.

  6. a different meg
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Well, I think Arya and Tyrion are already two of the most popular characters among fans of the books (definitely my 2 favorites).

    As far as characters who are currently not that popular go (therefore, should see a rise) – I think there is potential for Sansa to get more love from the fan community. I don’t dislike Sansa personally, but I have noted that some people hate her for the part she had in Eddard’s death. I think seeing a real flesh and blood person going through Sansa’s plight will make her more sympathetic.

  7. Andrija Andrew P
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    I think that Varys, if portrayed right, could potentially attract ppl and make them symphatize with him more than hate him.
    Also Cersei can be seen in a better light if they emphasize her caring for her children and her protectiveness towards them. But she will be very popular regardless of everything cause she has a wicked (v)agenda and you can be VERY popular even if you are not exactly all sunshine and crap.

  8. paulgude
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    I definitely think Sansa will garner more sympathy. It’s easy to dislike her in the book, but actually watching her life will be torture.

    I think a lot of the non-POV characters will get a larger share of fan attention as well. Everyone will be on equal footing at this point, so some folks may stand out even though we don’t have the benefit of reading their thoughts. Robb is a good example, and I think Littlefinger and Varys, while they are some of my favorite characters already, may be seen as main players.

  9. Ser Skwisgaard
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: I think a lot of the non-POV characters will get a larger share of fan attention as well. Everyone will be on equal footing at this point, so some folks may stand out even though we don’t have the benefit of reading their thoughts. Robb is a good example, and I think Littlefinger and Varys, while they are some of my favorite characters already, may be seen as main players.    

    I agree with this 100%. Without the structure of the POV chapters to keep us focused, just about any character could become a potential favorite. I think if anything, it will be the more minor-ish characters that come through earlier than expected. I know lots of people love Sandor, but there isn’t much to love until later books. Now, I expect him to play a much more visible part in the earlier parts of the story. Littlefinger (of course) will be everyone’s love-to-hate character.

    Part of me thinks, though, that Catelyn may become a largely disliked character.

  10. Scott
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    I think they should add Alf or at least an Alf-like puppet to the show.

  11. Katja
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    I have a feeling King Robert might get a bit more attention than he gets from the fans of the books. It’ll be easier to see how much Ned loves him and he’ll probably have more screentime. And he’s much harder to ignore as insignificant when he’s there in his own larger-than-life person. Whether he gets love or hate remains to be seen..

    Another thing that falls into my head is, how will the writers handle the very dramatic change in perception we have about certain characters when (if) we get that far? It’s a hard thing to do without the POV tool.

    Also, Go Team Viserys!

  12. Ikertzeke
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    a different meg: Well, I think Arya and Tyrion are already two of the most popular characters among fans of the books (definitely my 2 favorites).As far as characters who are currently not that popular go (therefore, should see a rise) – I think there is potential for Sansa to get more love from the fan community.I don’t dislike Sansa personally, but I have noted that some people hate her for the part she had in Eddard’s death. I think seeing a real flesh and blood person going through Sansa’s plight will make her more sympathetic.    

    Top 5 from Towerofthehand.com
    # #1 Tyrion Lannister
    # #2 Jon Snow
    # #3 Arya Stark
    # #4 Jaime Lannister
    # #5 Sandor Clegane

    You have also top 30 and top 10 hated characters.

    On those lists, I miss Melisandre…

  13. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    For Robb, I can imagine it going either way. What I mean is, although he’s not a POV character in the book, we mostly see him through his mother’s eyes so there’s an emotional closeness there– we almost know what he’s thinking, because she knows him so well and thinks so much about how he’s changing. In the show, depending on how it’s directed, that might not be there and then he’d seem a little more distant. Not that that couldn’t be good too in its own way.

  14. mratfink
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Ser Skwisgaard,
    I think that Catelyn is a character that will attract a large amount of hate, and my reasoning is based upon what i have seen from people following other tv shows. The archetype that attracts the most internet vitriol is usually the woman who plays the “wet blanket” role. I think Catelyn’s caution, which in my opinion is rightfully earned, will be seen by many tv watchers as the woman who is holding the men back from doing cool things. There is a little sexism in this hatred but well the internet allows people to express themselves anonymously and I have seen this reaction to cautious female mother figures on many different tv shows. In fact you even see Robb express similar sentiments at points in the series and I think Robb will be a character who the viewing audience identifies with to a greater extent than in the books because in the books we never see the world through his eyes.

  15. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    I also think “teams” are irrelevant in the context of the show (though who knows, the political madness of “Clash of Kings” might change this) but I think an increased focus on Robb is very possible. On the page, both Bran and Catelyn’s own issues cloud the lens through which we see Robb– most of is actions are given some kind of mental commentary by both POVs, which effects the way the reader perceives the character. Free of this, and with the advantage of a few more years, I think Robb will come across much more three-dimensional and sympathetic than he does in the novels.

    I’m a bit worried for Tyrion, though. I certainly don’t doubt the Dinklage, and plenty of Tyrion’s wit and personality will certainly come through in dialogue and acting, but I tend to think that a lot of what makes readers sympathize with and root for him comes from his internal perceptions and thoughts on what goes on around him. I’m worried we might be made to feel like we should like Tyrion without being given too many concrete reasons why.

    And I can’t help but wonder what they are going to do with Cersei and Jaime. I was struck during my reread of “Game of Thrones” by just how minor both characters really are in the book (even Theon seems to have more to do than Jaime does) and I’ll be interested to see where the show does (or doesn’t) add more sympathy to their actions.

  16. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    In this same web page, it was rumored that the relationship between Joffrey and Cersei be more twisted and incestuous. What do you think?

  17. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Scott,

    Yeah, but the mammoths don’t appear in the first book.

  18. furrever
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    The characters that stand to see the biggest increased in popularity via the television series in comparison to the books, are those characters who aren’t that popular to begin with among fans of the books (or at least started out as not being that popular specifically in book one).

    While I agree that Tyrion and Littlefinger will be huge fan favorites among the tv viewers (both because their literary characters are so much fun to read and they are both played by extremely talented actors), both characters are already quite popular among fans of the books. So, I’m not sure that either Tyrion or Littlefinger top the list of characters that will see the “largest rise in popularity once the series airs”.

    Same thing goes for Arya and Jon. Both are already hugely popular among fans of the books (in most people’s top 3 I’d say), so they really can’t rise much higher in popularity (e.g. going from #3 on the “book series popularity list” to #1 on the “tv series popularity list” isn’t quite the same as, for example, Jaime going from #10 to #4).

    Therefore, the two characters that I think will see the “largest rise in popularity once the series airs” in comparison to their popularity level among readers of the first book are:

    1. Jaime
    2. Bran
    3. Sansa

    Let’s face it, in book one you hate Jaime. But mainly because you only see his bad side. It’s not until the third book (when Jaime becomes a POV character) that you really start to like him as you become aware of his other (more likable) traits. On the small screen, however, viewers will more immediately like Jaime, as it appears the producers intend to give him more screen time (and new scenes), albeit as Ned’s antagonist. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if some viewers side with Jaime instead of Ned. The all-too-honorable Lord Eddard Stark could very well prickle tv viewers, whereas Jaime will come off as a bad ass, which I think a lot of viewers will like.

    I place Bran in second place as I know many fans (myself included) found reading his POV chapters to be somewhat tedious. However, seeing Bran’s fall on screen will make tv viewers instantly sympathetic toward him. And from what I’ve seen in the previews, Isaac is going to have the hearts of all the viewers.

    In third comes Sansa. Similar to Jaime, most readers don’t come to really like her character until later books. In book one, she comes off as a self-centered, starry-eyed brat. However, on the small screen, I suspect our hearts will more immediately feel sympathy for her.

  19. izakmo
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    i think it will be harder for jaime and sandor to “redeem” themselves in the series than in the books. besides their respective child murdering tendencies, incest is about as taboo as it gets, with pedophilia not far behind. reading it and watching it are two different things.

  20. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: I definitely think Sansa will garner more sympathy. It’s easy to dislike her in the book, but actually watching her life will be torture.

    This may or may not happen in season one, but there is no way the things that happen to Sansa in season two will fail to receive sympathy if they are depicted as they are in the book. I personally don’t know how people can see her character the same way in “Clash of Kings” as they do in “Game of Thrones” as it is, but I can’t even picture how the visual reality of a thirteen-year-old girl being beaten by grown men at the whim of her psychotic betrothed/sovereign could possibly fail to evoke a much more profound pity.

    I also hope they depict a few ‘ups’ and add a little depth to Sansa and Arya’s sisterly relationship. Yes, they are vastly different personalities, and yes, they are at fractious ages, but from reading “Game of Thrones” it seems like the girls have been at loggerheads their entire lives, and to me that’s a little bit less than realistic.

  21. Julian
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    I think Tyrion will have found his fan base by Episode 2, that little monologue he gives Jon on the way to Wall made me a die hard Imp fan. Not to mention his overall characteristics should win a few fans if Dinklage plays the character correctly (no doubt he will).

    As far as the other characters are concerned, I would love to say Jaime, but his screentime in season 1 will be limited, although his presense in the pilot will not be unknown, he only has a few Crowning Moments of Awesome in Season 1 (his fight against Ned might win the interest of a several newcomers.)

    Robb, I think will become a possible fan favorite towards the end of season 1 (like episode 8,9, and 10), as viewers do get to see him leading his forces against Tywin’s, as well as his capture of Jaime at the Battle of the Whispering Wood. But like someone above mentioned, he is not a POV character, so his actions will be described through the eyes of Catelyn, and I fear that non fans will come to despise the She Wolf (as Tyrion describes her) a few episodes into the series and even later when shekidnaps and accuses Tyrion of trying to kill Bran, keep in mind that by the time Tyrion is kidnapped in the series, new viewers will already have come to like him and his wit, so Catelyn’s mistreatment of the Imp won’t be look upon too kindly.

    Ned, is likely to have both sympathesizers and haters by the end of season 1. Viewers will identify with his struggle to keep up with his rambunctious King, but they may also scorn him because of his tendency to be so damned honorable which ultimately leads to his death

    Jon will have his fan base set in stone by the end of season 1, we watch him go from being a spoiled bastard child to a growing young man, maturing slowly in the ways of the Night’s Watch.

    Not quite sure bout Daenerys yet…..

    As far as supporting characters go, I think Littlefinger and Varys will be on everyone’s raydar if the actors play them well. Theon, Renly, Loras and others will have time to shine in Season 2. Shagga, Bronn, Osha, Vardis Egden, the Clegane brothers, and especially Tywin should be supporting characters that will catch the eyes of first time viewers, possibly making them fan favorites for the entire season.

    Whew!! Okay so that my opinion on who will become popular or who will gain more sympathy. Would type more but mah fingahs hurt!! D:

  22. Julian
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Holy Crap, I forgot to some stuff in spoilers….please forgive me

  23. Julian
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Wait, how exactly does this spoiler button work??

  24. Bilbo
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    @ Julian…You’re a bit of a spaz aren’t you?

  25. Julian
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Yes…yes I am *holds up head in a dignified manner*

  26. a different meg
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    I honestly don’t expect there to be much change in popularity for Catelyn. I think she continue to be hated by a significant portion of current fans, and newcomers. Jon and Tyrion are two somewhat instantly likeable characters in the books, and I think they will be well liked early on in the series. It will be hard to garner much sympathy for a woman who tells Jon that he should’ve been the one to nearly die instead of Bran and later goes on to have Tyrion kidnapped and put on trial. Just my thoughts.

  27. Brad
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    There is a certain kind of character I gravitate towards as a fave– people like Roose Bolton, and the Blackfish to name 2 examples. The more colorful secondary characters I guess you would say.

    As for the characters that will be appearing in season 1.. :-)

    Besides the more obvious choices, I think a certain fan following will develop for Bronn and The Hound. I think if the showrunners properly stage the conflict for the iron throne Robb could be a favorite by season’s end.

  28. Frank Ramirez
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    I think, if HBO does their job right (which its looking pretty good,) that viewers old and new are going to fall for Eddard! Other wise the surprise at the end of season 1 isn’t much of a surprise :D The Fan boys will undoubtedly fall down over Cersei and critics will pick up Tyrion. I personally am looking forward to seeing Cateyln and the Lady Lysa Aryn of The Eerie! Both are fantastic actresses and Cat looks fantastic!…hmmm…then of coarse there is old nan, who i think will get more of the lime light then she ever did in the books.

  29. a different meg
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Frank Ramirez: I think, if HBO does their job right (which its looking pretty good,) that viewers old and new are going to fall for Eddard! Quote  Reply

    I dunno. I think Eddard will frustrate some people. Characters who are too noble for their own good are hard to root for sometimes – they can be rather bland. While I like Eddard, I never found him particularly interesting.

  30. Jodan
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    One of the “minor” characters is inevitably going to gain the Boba Fett effect, question is which one? From reading the books, I’d say it has to be Sandor or Varys, seeming as Varys has the larger and more pivotal role in season one (Sandor doesn’t really come into his own till ACoK anyway).

    I can really see him barnstorming up the favourites lists. He enters as a mysterious and charismatic character and he never really loses it throughout the book with his allegiances going back and forth.

    Most TV viewers will figure LF for a backstabbing traitor by the end as well before anyone says this reasoning could apply to him as well, yet the TV viewer will have the Ned/Varys dungeon scene where Varys seemingly saves Ned’s life “for the good of the kingdoms” to keep them thrown off.

    The fact you can’t figure him out will draw people to him, compared to every other character (bar Littlefinger) most TV viewers will feel they’ll have all the characters figured out by the end of season one, I thought I did at the end of reading Game of Thrones, except when it came to Varys.

  31. Winter Is Coming
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Julian: Holy Crap, I forgot to some stuff in spoilers….please forgive me    

    Fixed it for you.

  32. E M
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Jon and Tyrion come to mind immediately as the characters that will have a genuine positive reception across the board of viewers. Jon might have a fanbase of ladies behind him from the first episode onward, but what really makes his character work is the connection he has to the events at the Wall that might’ve seemed a bit odd or outlandish otherwise. Jon is the character that makes the Wall accessible to us all. Tyrion, of course, is a strong presence in many situations and will prove himself likeable through his interactions with some lesser-liked characters such as Catelyn and Cersei. I think people are going to have a hard time liking Catelyn, but that’s no different than it is in the followers of the books.

    Daenerys leaves me unsure. I’ve always loved her, which I think comes from the fact that I was little older than she was when I started to read book one. From what I’ve seen all over, though, there are quite a few people among the fans who’ve trouble liking her and her storyline.. and I think that the “estranged” quality of her scenes will feel almost ethereal in comparison to the gritty reality of the other main characters. I think that it won’t be until the final episode that people will truly understand and appreciate her role. You cannot go wrong with DRAGONS, surely! That moment where she emerges from the fire..

    Littlefinger will be a great addition to the cast. The audience will become familiar with him over the course of the first season. Never quite liking him, mayhap, but never quite disliking him either. I think that there will be a lot of power in his interactions with Sansa over the course of the series, which will help shape people’s appreciation of both him and Sansa. Sansa is one of the characters who just keeps on growing, which is something that truly marks her as a fan favourite for later in the series.

    Jaime, then.. I think his character needs a lot of care in order to make him accessible to the audience. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau seems to have a very good grip on what makes Jaime tick, so I’m not really worried about it as much as I used to be. Still, I think that audiences will have to come to the stage of “love to dislike him” before the first season ends.. what happens to Bran is something that shapes Jaime as a character very early on, but I think that the subsequent insight we get into his character and his motives and his relationship with Cersei in later episodes/seasons will turn people’s worlds upside down. I have always liked him tremendously, throughout all the novels, so it is my hope that he will become just as likeable to the general audience as well.

  33. како велосипед
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    incest?,

    hahahahaha

    I can not believe what I’m reading

  34. izakmo
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Jodan,

    I think Bronn will be GoT’s “Boba Fett”. He’s got the likeable rogue thing down better than any other chacter in the series.

  35. Sleeky
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    incest?: In this same web page, it was rumored that the relationship between Joffrey and Cersei be more twisted and incestuous. What do you think?    

    I don’t think it would be necessary to demonize Cersei than she already is in the books.
    If you start going down that route then you are just using shock-value for shock-values sake. Much like True Blood did as that series progressed. I think it ended up being detrimental to True Blood and think it would be equally detrimental to GoT.

  36. world_dancer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Well, based on everything that gets said about Kit Harrington, it seems the producers are thinking he’ll be one of the major characters (and considering the love for Jon in the books, I think there’s a very good chance that they’re right).

    I’ll also go with Arya and Tyrion scoring in the top levels of interest.

    I’ll have to see the show, but some odd picks with potential would be Renly (it’s a short part, but with an actor who can steal the scene, he could make more of a mark than expected); and Bron (he does hold some of his own in practical with with Tyrion, so if they cast an actor who has a good buddy charisma with Dinklage, the two could feed off of each other and boost the character).

    I agree that Sansa could gain more sympathy and Cersei more understanding (though I can’t see her getting loved much as anything but a villain, based on her actual chapters in FFC), but I don’t see anything terribly unexpected unless Heady can get some real “Villain we love to hate” sentiment going for her.

    As for Teams, these usually arise in romances where more than one suitor is vying for the heroine, who is considered the ultimate reward, therefore the fans argue who she should spread her legs for.

    In GoT, the ultimate reward isn’t a girl, but a throne, so our Teams are logically Robb/Stark, Joffery/Lannister, Renly, Stannis, and Danerys by the end of season 1.

    Later on, we do have some theories over people selecting mates for Danny because it seems she needs two other dragon riders. I believe the majority are on Team Jon and/or Team Tyrion.

  37. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Sleeky,

    You’re right. Anyway, I must remind you that Cersei and his brother Jaime, have sex in front of the corpse of joffrey. hahaha ..

    “HBO may show an implied incestuous relationship?

    HBO is capable of anything.

  38. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    I would hope that the series geberates similar love/hate for all of the major players. Maybe some of the Catelyn and Sansa hate might be less harsh if they take a little more time to more fully explore the depths of the two roles. Tyrion and Arya will be a slam dunk.
    As for minor characters, I’d hope that Syrio gets a Richard Harrow (BE reference) kind of following for his badassery. Also, the surprise Miltos hinted at way back when might give viewers something more of the characters to devour than the books do. Also, Hodor could get alot more sympathy if they show him getting picked on and genereally treated as a second-class if not downright sub human by alot of the other characters.

  39. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Also, just to spice up the show, maybe they can use the title of this thread to insert As seen on TV to spruce up the technology of Westeros. Maybe the Maegi is an ace with a Fushigi ball and could use it to add flair to her foretellings. Perhaps the garden weasel could be responsible for the success of agriculture in Highgarden? Just a thought.

  40. Phantomwriter05
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    incest?,

    I also keep hearing rumors of Incest from Cersei and Joffery, but I don’t think there is any. I think people are confusing Cersei’s inappropriate style of affection as something it’s not.

    When I mean inappropriate, I mean showing affection that would be okay for like a four year old, but not someone who is fifteen (I think that’s what they’re putting Joffery at in the series.) She spoils him and always treats him like a little boy because she wants him to be dependent on her always so that

    1.) He’ll never leave her.

    2.) So that he won’t be able to rule without her. (When he comes to age he would namer her Hand of the King I’m guessing.)

    This is highly manipulative set of behavior, but at the same time Cersei has never understood what is and isn’t approprait when it comes to Family Love, has she? so you never know, she may have the same problem that Lysa has with her “little Robin”.

    (God I hope they don’t have Lena Headey still breast feeding Tommen.)

    anyway to answer the topic at hand I think what makes the characters people love and hate are the detailed introspectives Martin gives them. For instance Catelyn without her inner monolouges will come off as a shrew.

    I think that Cersei will gain alot more Sympathy from people if they show how Robert is in private with her. I think alot of people gain sympathy for the King because of his talks with Ned, but since there isn’t any inner monolouges you can’t find out what the Robert is like with his “family” or what kind of Monster he himself was contributing in creating in Joffery. So I think they have to show the man’s darker side in the first season and thus Cersei will get sympathy (She has mine already) ;)

    Other than that I can’t think of any character that is different without there introspectives. *shrugs*

  41. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: I definitely think Sansa will garner more sympathy. It’s easy to dislike her in the book

    I’ve always been surprised by how strongly a lot of people hate Sansa. She doesn’t seem to get any slack for being 12 and not knowing anything about anything. In book 1 she does a lot of typical obnoxious pre-teen stuff, and then she does two things with terrible consequences– one out of naive good intentions, and the other out of spite but without understanding what would happen. Sure, there are some young characters in the books who manage to take on more responsibility, but that’s because they’re forced to, and Martin still never loses sight of the fact that they’re kids who make a lot of kid mistakes.

    I don’t remember if it was the TV Zombies podcast or Bear Swarm, but at some point Sansa came up and some of those guys started venting how mad they were at her– not even for her personality, but for her role in the plot: it really bugged them that she knew some information that could’ve helped the other characters, if she’d known that they needed it and if she’d had any way to get it to them. Basically they wanted her to behave like they would, and as if she had read the book. I guess that’s either a testament to how involving the books are, or evidence that some people have trouble with the concept of fiction…

  42. dizzy_34
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Sansa is the most interesting one regarding this topic. If they show for instance Sansa going to Cersei to tell her about Ned wanting to get them back to Winterfell(which is only alluded in the books) I think it that could go a long way in portraying how Sansa is in the books. Otherwise she could be seen as total sympathetic character.

  43. Sleeky
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    incest?: Sleeky,
    You’re right. Anyway, I must remind you that Cersei and his brother Jaime, have sex in front of the corpse of joffrey. hahaha ..“HBO may show an implied incestuous relationship?HBO is capable of anything.    

    No. If I recall correctly they had sex in front of Tywins corpse. Not Joffery. And there certainly wasn’t any implied incestuous relationship between Cersi and Tywin.

  44. Johan Sporre
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Sansa’s likeability in the first season will to some extent depend upon just how awesome Arya is, since much of Sansa’s flaws are brought up around Arya. If they want to it’s also quite easy to make her telling Cersei of Ned’s plans more understandable.
    If her plight in season 1 (losing Lady) isn’t enough to make viewers sympathize with her I can’t see how she still will be hated by the time we come to season 2. Those parts were hard to read and will be even harder to watch.

  45. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34,

    The transfer of information between Sansa and Cersei is something that’s confused me for a long time. I’ll just put this whole chunk in spoilers, just in case, but edification would be appreciated.

    What exactly does Sansa tell Cersei that initiates Ned’s downfall? That Ned is sending them home? When he’s sending them home? Cersei knows most of it already. Ned himself has already informed her (like the idiot he is) that he knows her secret and plans to reveal her, and he’s shared pretty much everything along the way with Littlefinger. Aside from giving Cersei a more specific timeframe, I really just don’t see what information Sansa could have given that changed the situation in any dramatic way.

  46. Justin Dean Nelson
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    DEFINITELY Sansa and Cersei. Sophie Turner seems sweet, and Lena Headey has the potential to be a commanding powerhouse actress.

  47. Justin Dean Nelson
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    and possibly Rob for girls and gay guys like me. he is HOT

  48. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Phantomwriter05,

    You’ve expressed it very well.

    By the way. Where did you read the rumors that may show an incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jaime?

    Was it on this website? Lately there are many people that if they think that HBO can get very far with Cersei and Joffrey.

  49. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Sleeky,

    ¿?

  50. Kana
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    The thing I’m hoping for is that the tv writers aren’t tempted to make the early ‘bad guys’ of the series more sympathetic early on. The highlight of book 3 was realizing that I actually really liked Jaime, who I had previously assumed would be some kind of big bad to the series. Same deal with Sandor, the great part of his character is that the early impressions we get of him as a child murdering bastard aren’t wrong at all… Just incomplete.

    I don’t think it will be hard to recreate the changing impressions of those characters… Sandor’s not a pov character so everything that changes our opinions on him works well on screen. Jaime is harder to do, but expanding the Brienne / Jaime exchanges a little bit shouldn’t be too tough. And an extra conversation with his dad could probably fill in the rest.

  51. Julian
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Someone mentioned that Syrio might have a Richard Harrow like following. I think that sort of following is leaning more towards Bronn, once we see Tyrion and the sellsword’s relationship, I think HBO viewers might be reminded of Jimmy and Richard.

  52. DH87
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    The “team” concept was entirely manufactured by Summit Entertainment for the Twilight series to attempt to deny/conceal the real-life (and ongoing) romance between its two stars when there were four additional films to flog over two years. It was orchestrated by having the two leads separated in all the promotion of the series and undertaking a relentless campaign to create a “rival” to the male lead (ridiculous on so many levels) by promoting the actor in question in a way completely disproportionate to the role the character played in the novels. Teens were the perfect audience to pull this on and it has worked, apparently.
    A similar “team” affiliation has been adopted by some True Blood fans, particularly those who came to the TV show via the Harris books, primarily as a result of yet another campaign, this time on the part of the showrunner himself, to derail the scene-stealing dominance of Alexander Skarsgard by rewriting the relationship among the characters.
    Without constant PR manipulation and flagrant favoritism, fans are not inclined to engage in this kind of silly pro/con stuff. I don’t think we need to worry about it in GOT. The HBO PR department will no doubt try, but the story stands on its own two feet. Choosing “teams” in this series, with characters this nuanced and well-realized, won’t gain traction.
    Now if Catelyn hits the sheets with Jaime or Tywin in S2, or The Hound gets on with a septa, the manure is going to hit the propeller.

  53. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    I could see Bronn developing into that type of character as well. The only problem with Bronn imo though is that he’s one of the most transparent, up-front characters in the series. There isn’t much depth to him by design. That’s not to say he isn’t hellafun to watch or read, but he’s really not supposed to be any kind of sympathetic to the viewer. At least that is how I see him.

  54. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    I’m not sure we’re meant to think that it made any big difference. Sansa thinks it did, and that horrifies her and convinces her that she shouldn’t trust anyone ever again, but she doesn’t know about the other stuff you mentioned. And Cersei mentions Sansa’s mistake to someone else later, but more in the context of “see how innocent and dumb that girl was”.

  55. dizzy_34
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    It’s not anything specific but essentially when Ned informs Sansa and Arya that he’s sending them back to Winterfell and that he will not wed her to Jofferey, Sansa goes to Cersei. This is before Robert dies and it tips Ned’s hand, so to speak, before he acts. It’s mostly Ned’s fault, all in all, because he’s played the fool for thinking everyone would have the Relm’s best interest in mind, esspecially Littlefinger. However it shows how selfish Sansa can be for disobeying Ned.

  56. Mongerel
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    DH87: The“team” concept was entirely manufactured by Summit Entertainment….
    Without constant PR manipulation and flagrant favoritism, fans are not inclined to engage in this kind of silly pro/con stuff. I don’t think we need to worry about it in GOT. The HBO PR department will no doubt try, but the story stands on its own two feet. Choosing “teams” in this series, with characters this nuanced and well-realized, won’t gain traction.
    .    

    Well said. If anything, instead of forming up on opposite sides of some contrived romantic rivalry, teams would likely form to argue saving a character from death, or to condemn him or her. The internet fights could be very entertaining, if bloodthirsty.

    As for the Jaime/Cercei sex in front of a deadbod: it was Joffrey’s bod in the sept, in ASOS Chapter 63.

  57. Nicole
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    From what I have seen so far, I think viewers will declare themselves for respective Houses not ‘teams’. The Starks will win the hearts of most.

    One character I think will come across differently is Viserys. I loathed him in the books, but watching Lloyd, he looked kinda sexy and devious instead of weak and powermad.

  58. Brett
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Ned has is flaws. But his personality and believes are imbued in everyone of his children. Without him the show has no heart and so therefore he is the “center” of the series. If you don’t like Ned Stark and don’t see why he is a bad ass on his own terms you don’t get the series. I am so glad Sean Bean has been cast to play him.

  59. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    GRRM started the whole “team” thing back when he initially met Kit and Richard during the filming of the pilot (if I remember correctly anyway). I think he meant the comment to be more of a compliment to the young star’s looks and abilities, than as something that is likely to actually happen. Remember, this is a (non-vampire) fantasy show, and it airs on the adult-market HBO network. I doubt if many teen girls will care enough to give the show enough of a try, if they are even allowed to watch it, to rocket Kit and Richard into Jacob vs. Edward teen superstardom.
    Maybe as a result of the show, either or both actors will get another job that lands that kind of crzed fame, but HBO just isn’t the place to attract your average teen or tween.
    Also, to make a kind of nerdy observation, Robb and Jon are pretty tight. The whole bastard thing might drive a little wedge between them at times, but they seem to be close friends in the time we view them together at Winterfell. Jake and Eddy are rivals for the affections of the same girl. I’m not really sure what would make little chicks all over the place want to pit the two of them against each other. It doesn’t make logical sense, Its just kind of “cute” to think about I guess.

  60. DH87
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    I can understand why GRRM would like to see a “team” concept develop, since it fuels arguments on internet sites twelve months a year for both Twilight and True Blood. In contrast, look at the morgue-like reception Boardwalk Empire has received on HBO’s own boards. BE is a highly praised show, renewed, with decent numbers, nominated for every award out there, and zero fan buzz, anywhere. There is no “controversy” in the series, no real identification with the characters. That is not a good thing.

  61. KG
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    I can’t see how or why anyone would hate Catelyn.

    She behaves exactly how an approaching-middle-aged middle-ages-esque mother of five would behave. She fights to protect and guide her children with the limited means at her disposal in a hugely chauvinistic story setting.

  62. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    That’s how I saw it too, thanks!

    dizzy_34,

    True, it is selfish, but for me this is the kind of thing that defines Sansa (at least early on.) Her actions may be silly, selfish, thoughtless and wrong, but for a girl of her age, with her background, they almost always make sense to me. She also has incredibly ironic bad luck– Sansa pays such a disproportionate price for her “sins” that, as I see it, her karmic punishment is much more tragic than the rational consequences for anything she has done.

  63. dizzy_34
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    Agreed, however it’s going to be hard to portray all her inner thoughts on all the goings on in King’s Landing (esspecially if we don’t have a Jayne Poole). I think it would just paint a broader picture of her if they tried to include some of these “clueless” thoughts and how all the actions of others transform her character.

  64. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    KG: I can’t see how or why anyone would hate Catelyn.
    She behaves exactly how an approaching-middle-aged middle-ages-esque mother of five would behave. She fights to protect and guide her children with the limited means at her disposal in a hugely chauvinistic story setting.    

    there is only one character in the books that i find totally unredeemable and without any likable qualities. Lysa Arynn. that woman is entirely loathsome without a a single personality trait that doesn’t make me want to punch her in the throat.

    the problem with many of us fans of the books is that we have the “full” character pictures in our heads … our perceptions of each character are coloured by knowing their whole stories. i am just now re-reading the books and honestly in book 1 which makes this series most of the characters are only showing the 1st of many layers. Jamie is just a jerk. Tyrion, Sandor, Cersei, Arya, Dany and many others have yet to show but the barest parts to their full characters by the end of book 1 so that is sure to play a major role in how they will be perceived obviously.

    also the POV characters have so much internal rumination that readers are privy to that help round out their characters that viewers may not unless the TV show finds a really good way of relaying all that information.

    the last thing i’ll mention is that some characters look worse in hindsight. Ned for instance might be seen as “noble” at first but as the books go on and you see how complex the world and other characters are and how some of them grow i personally get more frustrated and pissed that Ned has lived for that long and allowed himself to be so one-dimensional and “nobility” quickly becomes “niavete”. many of the ill events that befall House Stark are entirely his own fault and at some point nobility must give way to protecting your own. unfortunately Robb takes too much of this from Ned and the same thing happens.

  65. userj
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    I agree with others that some non-PoV characters will become more important on the small screen than in the book. Highlights include:

    Littlefinger – People will enjoy watching him scheme, even more so than in the book. And, the actor is known from The Wire so will have some pull for HBO fans.
    Jorah – most of Dany’s appearances include Jorah (other than the various sex scenes). Plus Iain Glen is very charismatic.
    Robb – Robb does more of consequence in the last 4 episodes than most other characters despite being non-PoV. He will be HUGELY more important. I’m a little worried that we’ll lose some of the… intimacy… that we had only seeing Robb’s actions through Cat’s eyes but oh well.

    Ned vs. Jaime:
    It pains me to make this comparison because I had a rather unpleasant *achem* falling out with LOST but… It appears they are setting this up kind of like the Jack versus Sawyer thing from LOST. On the extreme end they may pull some of the Book 3 Jaime material to make him more sympathetic (though I really hope not). Perhaps a flashback. At the least, they will play the snark/humor up a lot, particularly when Jaime interacts with Tyrion. And this will be in stark (haha) contrast to Ned’s icy humorless attitude. At any rate Jaime will be much less of a non-character than he was in the book. I expect he will have fans right away.

  66. Linayus
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t start liking Sansa until she built her Winterfell snowcastle. That scene was a turning point for her, I think.. and the scenes directly following that one. I don’t believe the tv audience will particularly care for her either until further into the show.

    As for a fan favorite (other than the obvious choices of Arya, Jon, Robb, Dany, Ned, Tyrion, Jaime).. how about either of the Mormonts? Or Benjen Stark if he’s given enough time to develop with Jon early on…

  67. Rose
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    I see this stuff about Sansa a lot. It’s fascinating to me that among most people I’ve talked to who’ve read the books, Sansa is a fan favourite.

    I wonder if it’s a male versus female thing? The only actual, real life person I’ve met who still doesn’t like Sansa as of AFFC is my father, a man. All the other readers I know are women, like me, and all either love Sansa, or are very sympathetic towards her without particularly liking her. For myself and my closest circle, she’s in the top five POV chapters we love the most.

    I loved Sansa from moment one, she reminded me of the characters from Jane Austen or Laura Ingles Wilder. Her actions made sense to me and I found her softer views on things refreshing in the harsh world of Westeros. But to a guy who’s looking for blood and thunder …

    There’s a similar factor with Robert, here, men tend to love him and women tend to despise him. (I like him, myself.)

    I’m not trying to be sexist here, I’ve just definitely noticed a corelation on anecdotal evidence. I’m curious if anyone else has.

  68. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?: there is only one character in the books that i find totally unredeemable and without any likable qualities

    Gregor: taught his brother an important lesson about not stealing
    Vargo Hoat: overcame a speech impediment to become a successful businessman
    Craster: is godly
    Biter: isn’t afraid to be himself

  69. Linayus
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    mummer: Gregor: taught his brother an important lesson about not stealingVargo Hoat: overcame a speech impediment to become a successful businessmanCraster: is godlyBiter: isn’t afraid to be himself  Quote  Reply

    Hahahahahaha!! That totally cracked me up.

  70. dizzy_34
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    Well I’m a guy and I root for Sansa, but she is arguably one of the most frustrating character’s to read (I guess some would argue Cat or Brienne, both Women). However some of her POV’s are the most compelling stuff in the story.

  71. pas2pseudo
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Theon Greyjoy will remain for me the biggest loser of the series.

  72. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    mummer:
    Gregor: taught his brother an important lesson about not stealing
    Vargo Hoat: overcame a speech impediment to become a successful businessman
    Craster: is godly
    Biter: isn’t afraid to be himself    

    ok. maybe Rorge and Biter also have no redeeming qualities. but that is really the level that Lysa is on. she is just a utterly vain and stupid and insipid and weak pile of shyte all rolled into one.

    Gregor may be irredeemibly evil but he still is at least an effective character, even if his only effect is to reign down evil and destruction on the enemies of Tywin Lannister.

    Hoat is just amusing. he is a pantomime villain and does have a twisted sense of humour and as Roose says you don’t get to be the leader of a band of cutthroats like the Bloody Mummers for as long as he has by being stupid.

    and in his own self indulgent way Craster really does embody the pioneer spirit. he has set up his own little fiefdom and protects his family in the best way he knows how. of course he is a meglomaniac but most of the “powerful” in Westeros are and most have done far more harm than Craster has in his little midden heap hovel in the middle of the Frozen waste. plus as much as he might bluster and blow he always helped the watch more than he had to.

  73. paulgude
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and while I’ve always liked him, I think more folks are going to warm up to Sam when they see him portrayed on-screen.

  74. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    BE is another good example of understanding your target market. I don’t think that the lack of buzz on HBO’s boards for BE is really anything to get concerned about simply because the avereage person that watches that show probably isn’t super-likely to comment on a web-board about it. Its not the kind of show that generetes the rabid geek-type (pot calling a kettle here I know) that feels the need to comment about what they have just watched online.
    I can tell you anecdotally however, that there is a buzz about the show (BE I mean), at least among the people I’ve been hanging out with over the holidays. They might not bre invested in BE the same way those of us here have followed a show for years since its been greenlighted, but they are excited about season two and very much enjoyed season one. Tne net is important in gaguing buzz, but much moreso for shows that have a large group of people that actually use the net to talk about something as unimportant as a television show. Older people and many less geeky (yeah there is that overused-yet-fitting word again) viewrs simply don’t get entused enough about a show like BE to follow it beyond the airings.

  75. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    pas2pseudo: Theon Greyjoy will remain for me the biggest loser of the series.    

    Theon does run a close second for me to Lysa of characters i just can’t/couldn’t wait to see die.

  76. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    btw, there is TONS of controversy in the series and the cast is a host of intriguing characters imo. Some of the best ever on the small screen! I’ve said it before and I will say it again. If the GoT crew can put forth a finished product anywhere near what BE did from an acting and creative standpoint, then they are sure to have a huge hit on their hands as GoT’s subject matter wil help to attract alot more viewrs than BE. I’m hopeful, though not at all certain that GoT can reach the same standard as BE in this regard.

  77. Rose
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?:
    ok.maybe Rorge and Biter also have no redeeming qualities.but that is really the level that Lysa is on.she is just a utterly vain and stupid and insipid and weak pile of shyte all rolled into one.

    I like Lysa. She was a sweet, happy-go-lucky girl who always felt insecure next to her big sister and who could never get the boy she loved to look her way. And then she was given a forced abortion, was sent off to a cold tower to be married to an old man she didn’t love and who didn’t love her, and the only person who showed her any affection was her child.

    How is that not sympathetic?

    I find it interesting (here I go on gender again) that obsession and near-madness due to inrequited love is considered way more sympathetic in a male character than a female.

  78. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    I don’t know Jacopo. I have to dig deep, but if I try reeeeeally hard I can at least feel a little badly about Lysa’s situation. Especially if one of my long-time theories is revealed to be true down the line. This has to do with Tansy, the owner of the brothel/inn the Peach being the long-thought dead love child of Lysa and Petyr Hoster put her through an ordeal in her youth and Petyr plays her like a violin
    Yeah, she probably gets what she deserves, but I can at least feel a little sorry for her situation.

  79. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Rose:
    I like Lysa. She was a sweet, happy-go-lucky girl who always felt insecure next to her big sister and who could never get the boy she loved to look her way. And then she was given a forced abortion, was sent off to a cold tower to be married to an old man she didn’t love and who didn’t love her, and the only person who showed her any affection was her child.How is that not sympathetic?I find it interesting (here I go on gender again) that obsession and near-madness due to inrequited love is considered way more sympathetic in a male character than a female.    

    times are hard for everybody. cry me f**king river. are you trying to tell me that Lysa has seen more strife in her whole life than Arya and Sansa and Dany have in just the short span the books cover? yeah, not so much. most everybody in the books has had a hard life. life in Westeros is hard. Lysa has had it, while no means easier, far easier than many. losing children in childbirth isn’t easy but a reality of Westeros as is marrying people you don’t love. Was John Arynn young and handsome no. Was he cruel and abusive and poor and stupid and of mean birth and character? no. it could have been far worse for Lysa. she is just an entitled little beyatch who’d rather moan and whinge than do anything and on top of it she is a complete simpleton and coward. not a very flattering combination.

    there are plenty of female characters in the books who have far harder lives than Lysa and done far more to overcome it, dealt with it better and with more aplomb and have turned out to be flawed but decent enough people in their own right. Lysa deserves nobody’s pity.

  80. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    Again, whie Theon is a loser, he has a backstory filled with failed attempts at living up to his father’s idea of what a man and lordling should be. He’s a punk and a thug, but he has his reasons.
    A characte3r like Bronn lacks any sympathy on my part, mostly from his actions, but also because of his lack of backstory. GRRM hasn’t given us anything in this regard so I find it harder to feel for Bronn in anyway. With his character I like that. He’s what he is supposed to be. An emotionless sellsword. Perhaps we may learn how he was molested by a Septon in his youth in upcoming books (I hope not but who knows). But for now he will remain in my mind nothing more than a tool to be used by Tyrion or whomever the highest bidder happens to be.

  81. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    Well, if “amusing” is a redeeming quality… Lysa is the only character who uses the word “poo”, so that’s something.

    Seriously though, she is pretty awful, but it’s in a way that makes sense and isn’t all her fault. What we learn about the Tully/Arryn history makes it clear that Lysa was dealt a really lousy hand from early on. If she’d found someone who cared for her, and lived in a less crazy-making place, she could’ve turned out differently. I think if Cersei comes across as slightly more sympathetic, it’s mostly because Cersei has had a few advantages that Lysa didn’t.

  82. Rose
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?:
    times are hard for everybody.cry me f**king river.are you trying to tell me that Lysa has seen more strife in her whole life than Arya and Sansa and Dany have in just the short span the books cover?yeah, not so much.most everybody in the bookshas had a hard life.life in Westeros is hard.Lysa has had it, while no means easier, far easier than many.losing children in childbirth isn’t easy but a reality of Westeros as is marrying people you don’t love.Was John Arynn young and handsome no.Was he cruel and abusive and poor and stupid and of mean birth and character?no.it could have been far worse for Lysa.she is just an entitled little beyatch who’d rather moan and whinge than do anything and on top of it she is a complete simpleton and coward.not a very flattering combination.there are plenty of female characters in the books who have far harder lives than Lysa and done far more to overcome it, dealt with it better and with more aplomb and have turned out to be flawed but decent enough people in their own right.Lysa deserves nobody’s pity.    

    Meh, I still like her. I don’t need to see someone become a paragon of goddamn awesome to like them, I just need to see them being complex and realistic people. Some people AREN’T strong enough to overcome their difficulties and become awesome. Some people crumple under the weight of what they’ve endured and fold into the only things they can find that bring them any joy. Lysa was a soft, gentle, romantic girl. She didn’t have the stones to seize control of the Eyrie or declare vengeance against Petyr/Hoster for ruining her life. That doesn’t make her a worthless character.

    Don’t get me wrong, “Only Cat” was a badass scene, prolly my favourite in the whole series, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t feel terrible for Lysa in that moment.

    I might just have a weird definition of a likeable character, though — the only character *I* dislike utterly is Dany, who could end up ruining the books for me depending on how things end. Give me someone with a catalogue of flaws over someone so ungodly, unrealistically ~*~awesome~*~ any day.

  83. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    I’m not going to argue Dany with you on this point Jac, but playing devil’s advocate, I will at least bring up the point that Sansa and Arya came from a loving family (at least by Westerosi standards) By my reading, Hoster was a pretty harsh individual to have a s a father. He cared for his kids in his own way, but his House words Family, Duty Honor, rule him much more sternly than any monarch ever could. Its easy to see how something like this could mess up a teenage girl just coming into her own. Granted it turns her into a bat-shit crazy Lady and mother, but I for one can at least feel some sympathy for her.

  84. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    Never mind, I wrote that last thing before I saw your… rather vehement reply to Rose, or I wouldn’t have tried to convince you…

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    Seriously? I thought it was pretty clearly established in ASOS that tansy is an herbal ingredient in “moon tea” that Lysa was made to drink to abort her pregnancy.

  85. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    mummer: Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,
    Well, if “amusing” is a redeeming quality… Lysa is the only character who uses the word “poo”, so that’s something.Seriously though, she is pretty awful, but it’s in a way that makes sense and isn’t all her fault. What we learn about the Tully/Arryn history makes it clear that Lysa was dealt a really lousy hand from early on. If she’d found someone who cared for her, and lived in a less crazy-making place, she could’ve turned out differently. I think if Cersei comes across as slightly more sympathetic, it’s mostly because Cersei has had a few advantages that Lysa didn’t.    

    i guess. i really don’t see how anybody can like of feel any sympathy for Lysa Tully/Arryn.

    Cersei has had just as hard a life and bad a hand in many ways as Lysa but has at least marshalled all of her intelligence and guile and ambiguous morality to actually try and do something to protect and build those people and things she loves. she has plenty of faults to be sure but lack of gumption and ambition and at least a somewhat clear grasp on reality aren’t amongst them. add to the fact that after Tywin’s wife’s death (her mother) there really isn’t any real love, familial or otherwise, in her life outside of her very true but very doomed love for her brother Jamie. Lysa on the other hand has plenty of people she can reach out to and trust if she’d only bother to take her head out of her arse for a half a second. Hoster Tully might have had to make some hard decision regarding Lysa along the way somewhere (whatever it might have been) but i doubt he was as bad and distant a father as Tywin was to Cersei nor do i suspect that Edmure and Blackfish and Catelyn are as wretched and scheming a family as the Lannister clan. Remember it is only when Jamie becomes a halfway decent person that Cersei actually begins to dislike him. talk about dysfunctional.

  86. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    I don’t see much to sympathize with in the Lysa we meet in the books; she’s cruel and maddeningly short-sighted, to name a few of her flaws. That said, there’s little question she’s been put through hell by most of the men in her life. Given what she’s been through, I find Lysa more pathetic than anything else. She incompetent. She has lost any reasonable methods of coping with the world that she may have had when she was younger and more sane. This doesn’t make her likeable, but it does make me consider her much too ill to waste anger on. (Especially when there are so many more deserving targets… Theon, for one.)

  87. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    SPOILERS
    Yeah seriously. I think there might be something to it. Hoster says the word “Tansy” but I think its a person’s name. Tansy’s description in the books could fit the Tully look. Its mentioned in the books that naming peasant children after flowers or plants is a pretty common practice and I do believe that Hoster attempted to kill the baby. I think that she (or he as Lysa incorrectly assumes cause she is hell-bent on giving Petyr a son) wasn’t stillborn, but lived through the forced abortion and Hoster didn’t have the heart to kill her. He dropped her off at an Inn in the region and now she lives there. GRRM also often talks about incorrect PoVs and I htink Lysa’s assupmtion of her childs as a boy is an example of this.

  88. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    I don’t think Lysa is someone I’d like to have over for tea (moon or otherwise), but I do feel a certain pity for her.

  89. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    Hah! Indeed. I do pity her, but it’s a disgusted sort of pity, if that makes any sense.

  90. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    како велосипед,

    Before you had not read. Tell me, why are you laughing?

    It is very likely to be a nonsense, but I do not be surprised if HBO were further with the incestuous relationship between Joffrey and Cersei.

    Anyway, our friend Phantomwriter05, has some of reason.

  91. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    incest?,

    Unless I’m totally off my rocker, I’ve never noticed even a whiff of any tyoe of incest between Cersei and Joff.

  92. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    That doesn’t make much sense unless Hoster allowed the pregnancy to go nearly to term, which would’ve made it impossible to keep the secret as well as they did– I mean, Jon Arryn apparently knew about it, but it wasn’t common knowledge around Riverrun as it surely would’ve been if Lysa was 8 months pregnant.

  93. Tysnow
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    incest?,

    Jack Gleeson is 15 years old, so forget about them doing anything of the like.

  94. Tysnow
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    Probably started by someone who wanted to damage the show before it even aired.

  95. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    There are ways to hide a pregnancy, especially if Hoster was away from Riverrun for any length of time. Cat, remembers with bitter-sweet nostalgia all of the times she would stand on the batements of Riverrun waiting for him to return. Perhaps the timing of it all went down so that Hoster was away when one of Lysa’s Septa’s discovered what had happened. By the time the message got to Hoster and Hoster returned to RR it could have been too late.

  96. Poe to the Pulps
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Team Danny…..obviously.

  97. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Adding the incest between lady and William Hamley is the point that the Pillars of the Earth mini-series lost me. Well, that and the torture of Prior Phillip while Bigod watches. Adding something like that would be a horrible move imo.

  98. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Adding scenes that enhance the existing relationships between characters from the novels = good.
    Adding scenes that change the existing relationships between characters from the novels = mistake.

  99. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow and Lord Ned’s Head. They are right.
    Do not know why I’m insisting on the subject of incest. Since I read the comments of others on changes in the series, had the momentum and some strange sensations, that an incestuous relationship, it would be more accurate.

    I do not know how to explain it.

  100. DH87
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    It’s not just BE—most television shows/films do not generate the kind of intense identification/devotion as has Twilight, True Blood, Lost, Mad Men, or any of the projects featured at ComiCon. Many of them still live long and prosper. My point was that George’s wishful thinking in envisioning a Team Jon/Team Robb competition was his best-case scenario. He didn’t say, “Gee, I hope GOT garners top award nominations like Boardwalk Empire.” :) The cumulative effect of the drip, drip, drip of free publicity—cheer-leading for casting, previewing of pre-release material, posts on You Tube—surrounding charismatic projects is what has driven the film community to build its entire future around trademarked characters and partnerships with Marvel, etc. that are able to generate blog fodder. No marketing budget, no matter how huge, can match word of mouth (or word of nerd, I suppose). If we look at the marketing budgets for The Tourist or Tron Legacy, we’ll see that money and the two biggest movie stars in the world can’t buy success in today’s media environment. Free publicity drives book publishing and the TV business as well. It scares the daylights out of PR departments used to shoveling money at traditional outlets and think a viral campaign involved the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, thus the attempt to coop ComiCon, not Cannes, for big-tent projects over the last few years.

  101. incest?
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    Exactly. William Hamley incest is not in the novel. hahaha

    HBO may do the same. William’s mother is similar to Cersei, the two women are harpies and a manipulative. Use sex to achieve goals.

  102. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    WINTER….
    WTF happened yesterday? I guess there is a reason that NFL games shouldn’t be played on Tuesday! lol

  103. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    Two problems. 1. According to Lysa, Petyr was sent away because Hoster found out about the pregnancy, shortly after the duel with Brandon. Although we don’t know exactly how much time had passed since he slept with Lysa (thinking she was Cat– which contributed to his obsession with Cat and led to the duel), it seems like quite a stretch to say it was as long as you’re suggesting. 2. Tansy, the woman at the brothel, is way too old to be Lysa’s child. She was already working there during Robert’s rebellion.

  104. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Its been a while since I went over the particulars Mumm. I do seem to remember working out that Tansey was maybe a little older than Jon and Robb but I can’t remember exactly. Where do you see evidence that Tansey was at the Peach during the Rebellion?

  105. Phantomwriter05
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Let me set the record straight really quick …

    I never said there was going to be incest between Cersei and Joffery I mearily stated that Cersei’s affections toward her child is somewhat cringeworthy in terms of “Dude arn’t you a little old to be …” insert what you will.

    Joffery is a big time Momma’s boy, which is why I call him “Precious” and at the end of a Clash of Kings it really shows just how immature he is when he cuts himself on the Iron throne in the middle of a tantrum.

    that being said Joffery is the only one of Cersei’s children who is a Momma’s boy. Mrycella doesn’t spend much time with her mother and Tommen has shown signs that he and Cersei will have a very uneasy relationship even at Seven.

    Now I think that Who Is Jacopo Belbo? got a very good point about Cersei’s mind set that might explain why she would want to keep her children in a Peter Pan state (Though Tommen continues to fight her and show signs of devolping greatness by Feast for Crows.)

    Because Cersei grew up without much love in her childhood and now that she has that uncoditional love from all of her babies she doesn’t want that to ever go away so she babys them constantly so that they will always need her and thus never leave her.

    As a super fan of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles I can say that Lena Headey is pretty much playing an mirror world version of her own Sarah Connor role (and by far the greatest of the two.) in Queen Cersei Barratheon first of her name Queen of the Andals, Rydmar, and the first men, and Queen of the seven kingdoms. (That’s easier to read than write.)

    LOL ;)

  106. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Don’t have the novels with me atm here at my paren’t house so I can’t look it up.

  107. Winter Is Coming
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head: WINTER….
    WTF happened yesterday? I guess there is a reason that NFL games shouldn’t be played on Tuesday! lol    

    Yeah, for real. I had a bad feeling about that game. Whenever the fans, media and everyone else starts considering a game a sure-win, I start to get nervous.

    Worst part about that loss to me? No playoff bye means I’m going to be flying back from LA during the wild card game. Ugh!

  108. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    ASOS, the 30th chapter, where the outlaws stay at the Peach. T. owns the establishment – not very likely if she’s 17 years old – and it’s implied that she’s Bella’s mother.

  109. reedgirl
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    For me, characters with potential for perception amendment include Sansa and Catelyn. Stupid, useless women, the both of them, who singularly set into motion an execution and a frickin’ WAR. Now, SEEING their pretty faces and motivations on screen might change that. I often forget that Sansa is just a kid in GoT, but then again Arya & Bran are both younger and appear to have more wisdom inside their heads. But on HBO, we won’t hear anyone’s inner thoughts, so maybe the contrast won’t be so stark :P

    (Rant: Sansa embodies that ‘princess’ persona that has led so many women to ruin IRL. You know the type – in love with the man because he sends her roses/writes her poems/sobs in the street after he treats her like shit, the kind who feels she is above others in looks, can’t think her way out of a paper-bag, and calls you jealous when you tell her the bf is controlling/abusive… the kind of princess who thinks worship = love, and drama = validity, and gifts = happiness. UGH. Prince Charming isn’t coming honey! Get back to scrubbing them floors…)

    Ahem.

    Barring major plot changes, I will ALWAYS loathe Theon. The minute I see him on screen, I have a very epic hate-on planned. This perception is non-negotiable.

    And Ned will always be my hero <3

  110. paulgude
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    As far as “teams” go, if I had to pick a favorite character for the show, it’d have to be Dinklage as Tyrion. I was a fan of Dinklage before I knew anything about the show, and found out he got the role while I was reading “Game of Thrones” for the first time. My excitement for the series was completely enmeshed with them Dinklage in that role.

  111. paulgude
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Er, “them CASTING Dinklage in that role,” I mean.

    I often forget him when discussing favorite characters, because he’s pretty much a given for me.

  112. Zack
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    reedgirl,

    Could not possibly agree more with everything you’ve said.

    Those two are the protagonists I was never able to come around on, and, like you, especially so with Sansa. I don’t necessarily think the series is going to make me LIKE Sansa, but seeing the brutality she endures is going to be awfully difficult, especially if Sophie is any good. I have a feeling I’m going to be empathizing with her a lot more on TV. As for Theon, I’m curious what GRRM has in store for him in ADWD. From the sample chapter, I’m hoping he doesn’t try and make him sympathetic a la Jaime. Such an effort is almost certainly doomed to failure. Have to say his chapter encountering “Esgred” was quite hilarious though. If they play up that aspect of his character more on the show I might look forward to his scenes.

  113. Dash
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    I agree, some characters are going to win some points because they have more charismatic actors/actress. My guess is bran, arya and sansa will rise like a ice in my vodka, and so will do little finger and our hated evil queen…

    Bad side… right now i see that jon and his almost-non-a-beard, robb and his strange-non-stark-and-no-tully face (seriusly, ¿who are the parents of this guy?) and the surfers of the other side of the sea (yes, moma and dany, i´m talking about you and that blue sky that is always around you… by the name of the seven, you are going to walk in a hell in life, your land should burn your troath when you breath, and no look like california a nice day of summer!)

    And for sure will be team… and will be a lot of people in the lannister team. Hear my roar! (no, really, i always was a stark, but watching this cast, i´m goin to fall in love with the lion)

  114. mummer
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    reedgirl: singularly set into motion an execution and a frickin’ WAR

    Not really. Ned Stark caused his own downfall by telling Cersei and Petyr his plans, before Sansa did the same. And there was plenty of work done by others to set up the war before Catelyn’s bad idea at the inn– specifically by Petyr, who got Lysa to kill Jon Arryn and pin it on the Lannisters, and then framed Tyrion for the attempted murder of Bran. That guy wasn’t going to give up until he got a Stark-Lannister war somehow. And even if that hadn’t happened, Stannis was already under way on his own thing.

  115. Steel_Wind
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Among fans, I think the early favorite for “most improved following” will not be Sansa — it will be Viserys. (Sansa will be #2)

    Sansa has her detractors and, to some extent, her fans among FANS of the series. But the point is — she actually DOES have fans.

    But Viserys? Who the hell likes Viserys after reading AGoT? Nobody. He’s there to be despised and to show us the cost of preserving the pure Targaryen bloodline over the years. He’s the Targ incest curse, writ small.

    But from what I’ve watched in the small clips we’ve all seen so far, I’ve far preferred Viseryrs over Dany. Hell, from what we’ve seen of Viserys so far, I’m rooting for him! So much so, I’m rather upset he’s going to get crowned so relativly early in the series.

    As for who goes down most in popularity? Danaerys, I expect. Apart from Jon and perhaps Tyrion, she has the farthest to fall. We’ll see.

    The “surprise” to casual viewers. That a midget is the hero of the series. Not a mystical “hobbit” — an outright human dwarf. Things like that don’t happen.

    Until they do.

  116. Rose
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Among fans, I think the early favorite for “most improved following” will not be Sansa — it will be Viserys. (Sansa will be #2)Sansa has her detractors and, to some extent, her fans among FANS of the series.But the point is — she actually DOES have fans.But Viserys? Who the hell likes Viserys after reading AGoT? Nobody.He’s there to be despised and to show us the cost of preserving the pure Targaryen bloodline over the years. He’s the Targ incest curse, writ small.But from what I’ve watched in the small clips we’ve all seen so far, I’ve far preferred Viseryrs over Dany. Hell, from what we’ve seen of Viserys so far,I’m rooting for him! So much so, I’m rather upset he’s going to get crowned so relativly early in the series.As for who goes down most in popularity? Danaerys, I expect. Apart from Jon and perhaps Tyrion, she has the farthest to fall. We’ll see.The “surprise” to casual viewers. That a midget is the hero of the series. Not a mystical “hobbit” — an outright human dwarf. Things like that don’t happen.Until they do.    

    Lol, I thinnk I seriously fail at likeability — I liked Viserys in AGoT >_> His fate really, really upset me, and when Dany named Viserion, that really touched me. Viserys’s story is so sad. Dany was too young to remember everything that she lost, but Viserys wasn’t. It affected him so brutally. He was a good kid before the war, according to Dany’s good memories of him when they were kids together, before he hardened.

  117. Strider
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    My biggest fear with this series is that the war at the end of the book will look like a TV series and not a movie, I just watched the starz series Pillars of the Earth, and the action throughout the series was awful, I just hope the series will live up to everyones expectations, and will bring in new fans of the action genre

  118. reedgirl
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Zack: his chapter encountering “Esgred” was quite hilarious though…

    Never laughed so hard myself. Especially the ‘mother’s milk’ part… *clutching stomach in horror and glee* So. Very. Humiliating.

  119. Inkasrain
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    reedgirl: Stupid, useless women, the both of them

    You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but Catelyn is far from stupid, and farther from useless. She’s about as wary and calculating as they come in this story, but she doesn’t make Cersei’s mistake of thinking she’s the only one on the continent with a brain. There’s no question that Catelyn makes mistakes and a lot of her decisions are unwise in retrospect, but she is a major actor in the story, and makes her choices well given the information she has.

    reedgirl: Rant: Sansa embodies that ‘princess’ persona that has led so many women to ruin IRL.

    I don’t really understand this. In “Game of Thrones”, yes, Sansa does reflect this. But (in my opinion, anyway) this makes perfect sense. Sansa’s desires for romance and a fairytale life is what she has literally been suckled on. She was raised to be that great highborn lady, and she fit the role naturally, so she had absolutely no impetus to rebel against it. But regardless of what Sansa is like in “Game of Thrones”, to say that she continues to live in a dreamworld is just not accurate. Her perspective and beliefs change rapidly after Ned meets his end. She becomes infinitely more careful and wary, and her wisdom grows palpably as she is subjected to more and more tortures in a world that was supposed to keep her safe. No one has to like her or any character, but the reality of Sansa simply isn’t the silly dreamer by the last time we have seen her.

    All that said, I despise Theon as well, so on that we can agree ;-)

  120. Grimtuesday
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    I’ve always kind of felt bad for Theon. He was taken away from his family after his father got too big for his britches and tried to carve out a new kingdom, and once he returned, he was met with ridicule and disrespect by those who he thought would be pleased to see him and welcome him with open arms.

    I think I will like GREGOR more in the TV show just because I find it difficult to dislike Conan.

  121. Zac Beach
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    favorite characters:

    Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Jamie, Jon, Cersei, Sansa, The Hound, Littlefinger, and Varys.

    I am hoping Maisie and Sophie tear it up and make everyone fall in love with Arya and Sansa. I’m glad to see some Sansa love. They are the best Starks. I have total faith in Dinklage, Gillen, and the actor for Varys. I hope that they give extra time to Jamie and Cersei. Lena Headey only makes me love Cersei even MORE. I’m a total fanboy. The Hound is going to be bad ass. And if we get lucky, Harrington and Clarke will rule and are able to carry the series.

    A LOT will depend on how the actors portray their characters. Sophie could make Sansa innocent and naive (how I see her), or selfish and spoiled.

  122. Brienne
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    First of all, I love you WIC for forgetting the 2nd Twilight character in the post, with how impossible it is to avoid this drivel even if you are not a 12 year old girl or happen to have one at home.
    Second, I do think there will be a “Team” type mentality with TV fans that haven’t read the books, not for individual characters but houses. Until the shit hits the fan and even the families begin breaking apart physically and loyalty wise. I think these fans will also not even understand some of the books fan’s problems with Sansa. Therefore she will probably see a popularity bump.
    I also still believe that without direct knowledge of some of the tweeks we’ll see in adapting to television, we may be very surprised at how some of the characters are perceived.

  123. Jarmel
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    I actually don’t hate Theon. He tries to fit into this particular image for a father who pretty much despises him and is outshone by a sister who had the training and background he lacked through no fault of his own.

    Jaime is going to definitely get a boost and even despite the things he does, will probably be viewed as a badass. I think the Prince Charming aspect will play a bigger role in perception compared to the books(early on anyway) and people will view him as the man who gets things done.

    Catelyn won’t garner much fans as she will be viewed as too motherly and her lines with Jon won’t win her much support.

    Sandor will probably be the Boba Fett character but I doubt he will have a large fanbase until the later seasons(unlike Bronn who I expect people will rave about as he and Tyrion hopefully will have some awesome chemistry).

    Bran’s parts are the most relaxed and normal of the POVs and so I doubt much will happen in regards to popularity.

    Now Sansa is the truly interesting one. I expect alot of people to despise her and view her as the spoiled princess especially compared to Arya who acts with more sense despite being younger. Her pretty much screwing her father up will also end up with more haters. In book one she really isn’t a likable character(Hell in the entire series she really isn’t. She’s just being led on by people smarter than her.) so I doubt she will have a fanbase unlike Arya who people are supposed to like.

    I can see Dany getting alot of hate as her story might feel too detached.

  124. Zac Beach
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    you make total sense. I fear for the likability of Dany. We’ll see…

  125. Pia
    Posted December 29, 2010 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    incest?,

    No way. I just don’t think HBO would twist the story that much. People would NOT like it. Book fans would be dumbstruck and general audiences will have a hard enough time dealing with her and Jamie’s relationship. There is just no way.

  126. KG
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Grimtuesday,

    I’m with you. I’ve always had a sneaking “oh you poor guy” for Theon. His life has been horrible. A hostage over half his life and a cold, disdainful welcome when he comes back.

    I suspect he’ll be one of the few characters left standing when it’s all over. I don’t know how, but I’ll put a very weeee bit of cosmic gold on it.

  127. Fire And Blood
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    I’m nearly the opposite of reedgirl. Sansa and Theon are two of my favorite characters in the entire series. Sansa partly because my wife is so entrenched on Arya’s side (and an avowed Sansa hater) that I was almost forced to take the opposite tack. But in truth, I find her fascinating; no one is more alone. Sansa is a minnow swimming in a pool of sharks, yet she survives. And while it could be argued she learned her lessons slowly, she is indeed learning them by the end of A Feast For Crows. I can’t wait to see where her story goes next, and I really think Sophie Turner will make her extremely sympathetic. As for Theon, I love him for the walking chunk of mistake-prone tragedy that he is. There’s something arguably Lady MacBethian going on there, which I find fascinating, and he’s the main reason I want to see the second season. Alfie Allen will have some fantastic scenes to chew on in season two.

    My thoughts on who I think will be changed the most in the television series:

    Ned. I think Sean Bean already has his own take on the character, some of it grounded in what we already know from the book, and some of it simply due to putting the character in the hands of an extremely talented actor. I think we’ll see more emotion than we saw in the book, and I’m betting as we hurdle toward the end of season one we will even see a lot more. If he is dreaming himself in his brother Brandon’s shoes (as the last preview strongly hinted–another new scene we never read), I think that will help the audience see past Ned’s thick outer shell. In the end I believe he will be Ned, but he will be Sean Bean’s Ned.

    Jory. Probably a no-brainer. We know very little of Jory Cassel through the books, but already we have hints of an expanded role for Jamie Sives. Just the annoyed look he exchanges with Varys hints at some sort of running gag; I imagine Varys takes amusement in popping up unexpectedly in places Ned’s most trusted man swears he already checked. At least that’s what I gather from what little we’ve seen. And this is good; Jory’s ultimate fate will resonate even more greatly if we love him. I think we will.

    Gendry: Another small role that should be expanded, especially in season two. The whole “aging up” thing we’ve seen really stands out on this character; I think the producers are looking at the actor’s skills rather than worrying about whether or not he might / might not have some sort of romantic chemistry with Arya. And if Arya and Gendry are fated to one day meet again, far into the future (perhaps in the final season–some seven years from now–fingers crossed) and the producers (and GRRM) want to spark something up that greater than friendship, Maisie will be old enough to make that at least plausible.

    Honorable mention goes to a much-aged up Rickon, though I still have no idea what GRRM has planned for that wild child.

  128. Jordan Healey
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    Hopefully the next preview contains some footage of The Old Bear and Syrio Forel!

  129. Blood
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    reedgirl,

    Neither Catelyn nor Sansa caused the war, it was coming with Robert’s death no matter what. Littlefinger was never going to help Ned, and without his help Ned had no chance of winning after he told Cersei to flee. Catelyn or Sansa in no way caused Joffrey to kill Ned, and Renly or Stannis were in no way effected by them either.

  130. reedgirl
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    Blood,

    I must still respectfully disagree. The ship was there to sail the girls off, (Arya sees it waiting at the docks days after Baelor’s steps – LF did not arrange it) and Ned only co-operated Cersei (plead guilty against his own honor) to spare his daughters’ lives. None of it would have happened if Sansa hadn’t blabbed. The girls would be gone (Cersei’s power over Ned), and Ned would still be in the cells – refusing to cooperate, but alive. Remember that the Imp was a prisoner and Ned’s life was supposed to be ‘insurance ‘ on Tyrion’s life. That stalemate would have kept Ned alive for a time at least.

    As for Catelyn, when she (wrongfully) took the Imp at the Inn, Jaime and Tywin were spurred into action, and then so too were the Tullys/Riverrun dragged into the mire, and then, dominoes. Just finished a re-read with an eye to it. A war might have started anyways after Robert’s death (c/o Stannis & Renly), but as it stands, Catelyn was the catalyst.

    Mind you, LF was probably laughing at how easy the Stark ladies made it for him. IDK if war between the Starks/Lannisters was his goal. I think chaos/war in general suited him just fine, and a war was all but certain with Cersei’s little blonde lies…

  131. paulgude
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Perhaps not a spoiler, but I’m going to attempt to put it in a spoiler tag anyway:

    I fully expect a scene between Alfie and Donald Sumpter to break my heart.

  132. Peltast
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 4:20 am | Permalink

    I think Cersei will be the most changed in popularity – before, when I read ASoIaF I always thought Cersei was a raging bitch, however after Lena Headey mentioned something about her being fiercely maternal Cersei seemed actually more sympathetic when I reread the books.

    Never had a problem with Theon or Sansa myself, the awesomeness of GRRM’s writing made me root for whatever character/faction happened to be the POV that chapter.

  133. Steel_Wind
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    reedgirl: Blood,
    I must still respectfully disagree.

    Remember that the Imp was a prisoner and Ned’s life was supposed to be ‘insurance ‘ on Tyrion’s life. That stalemate would have kept Ned alive for a time at least.

    As for Catelyn, when she (wrongfully) took the Imp at the Inn, Jaime and Tywin were spurred into action, and then so too were the Tullys/Riverrun dragged into the mire, and then, dominoes.

    And I must respectfully agree with reedgirl.

    There likely would have been a war — no matter what. But the North and Riverrun would not have declared a King in the North without Ned’s execution. And that public event would gone wrong would not have happened if his girls had not been in King’s Landing. He would have been kept in a cell — and would not have been weakened with a mangled leg (the fight with Jaime would not have transpired) or later, gutted with a promise of a delivery of Sansa’s head on a platter.

    Catelyn was manipulated throughout by her trust in her childhood friends. She was betrayed by Lysa and Littlefinger — who put the whole damned thing in to motion. But it’s also rather clear that Catelyn was easy to predict and easily manipulated, too. And rash, to boot.

    I don’t assign any real moral blameworthiness for any of Catelyn’s actions… except for arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime. Tyrion was the brother of the Queen – and her own husband was the Hand of the King. Even if she had been right, it was not her order to give; it was Ned’s. And Ned didn’t give that order. Nor would he have done so. He would have gone to Robert after his evidence was complete and unassailable — and not until.

    Taking Tyrion as a hostage was an event she did not think through. If she had been doing ANY thinking at all, she would have put a stop to the “King in the North” declaration too — as that bit of foolery cut the Starks off from Stannis as a real political and military ally.

    As for releasing Jaime? Madness; sheer madness. By then, however, she is truly a broken woman mad with grief. Catelyn was no longer acting rationally. Brienne, however, has no excuse. She ought to — and did — know better.

  134. Marc
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Aerox: … I think Arya will be the hands-down fan favorite of most people who watch the show. Tyrion will also probably be extremely popular.    

    First comment and a full match. Arya & Tyrion willbecome the most popular characters. Both are more or less free, anarchistic, independent. Yesss.

  135. Jenny
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    TEAM JAIMEEEEEEE!!!!!
    TEAM SANDOOOOOOR!!!!!

    SHRIEEEEEEEK

    *topples over… topless*

    Lol lol lol

    It’s like the anti Edward and Jacob salvation…
    Not humble, not honest, not indistructable.
    *pukes… wearing an old tracksuit*

  136. ieiazel
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    Viewers will root for Ned, Arya, Tyrion and Jon (they are pretty much everyone’s favourites in GOT).

    About Arya vs Sansa:
    I once read a description of Arya somewhere: “She is the most improbable kid on earth”. I couldn’t agree more. Sansa, with her many many flaws, is much more believable as the girl of 12 she is when GOT starts. GRRM does his best to make us like Arya, she is certainly very compelling and she goes through horrific experiences, but she is far from being a believable kid. I will always be Team Sansa because of that. You are 12, you have just seen your father executed, you are surrounded by enemies and you endure beatings and humiliations… how do you react to that? We would have liked her to overthrow Joffrey’s rule, put Cersei in a dungeon and impose a democracy, yes, but that wouldn’t be believable because she was only a 12-year-old girl. My problem with Arya is that most of her actions are nearly as unbelievable as that.

    About Catelyn: well, it’s easy to criticise a character’s actions when you, as a reader, can see the whole situation with perpective. Catelyn is extremely intelligent, her advice to Robb is always quite sound and she is emotionally very strong (up until the end). Calling her stupid and useless is neither fair nor accurate, in my opinion.

  137. ieiazel
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    ieiazel,

    Aggh, i didn’t use the spoilers thing!! Sorry!!

  138. reedgirl
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    You and I should start a law firm… Steel/Reed? (WindGirl just doesn’t have the same ring :P ) Thanks for weighing in. You are brilliant. Totally agree about Brienne. Just shows that she’s a bit of a lunkhead too. Or just blindly loyal to Catelyn.

  139. dizzy_34
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Team “Half Man”
    Team “Belwas”
    Team “Rorge”
    Team “Biter”
    Team “Lomey”
    Team “Hotpie”

    the Hot Topic tee shirts are endless…

    The only thing I really hope HBO capitalizes on are the various houses on tees.

  140. Dennis Brennan
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Here are some Season 1 characters whose fanbase I would thing will increase over that from the books:

    * Samwell Tarly
    * Jory Cassel
    * Rodrik Cassel
    * Old Nan
    * Hugh of the Vale
    * Vardis Egen
    * Gregor

  141. како велосипед
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    incest?,

    I do not intend to mock.

    It is absurd to invent an incestuous relationship between mother and child. (Cersei and Joffrey)

    The novel has many references and incest.

    1. Jaime and Cersei.

    2. Cersei and Lancel.

    3. Viserys and Daenerys (no sex, but the brother plays tit and thigh)

    4. Theon Greyjoy and Asha. (not have sex, but there are moments of sexual tension between the two brothers)

    Etc.

    Why are they going to put another incestuous relationship? како велосипед

  142. Cutter Allen Kilgore
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    Team Hodor?

  143. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    mummer,

    How is it implied she’s bella’s mother? I aways took her to be the “madam” of the Inn. As for her young age (as I see it it) to be running the place, I figured she was the only living child (adopted or otherwise) of the former couple who ran the place. Even if she didn’t know she had noble blood, they might have figured it out. If so, she would have been treted differently and possibly given higher status than a regular peasant’s kid. I’m going to hold off on any further comment along this vein though until I get back home later today and grab the book for myself hehe!

  144. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    I will ask this of any timeline freaks out there though. What else was happening around the time that Lysa would have lost her child?

  145. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    ieiazel: I once read a description of Arya somewhere: “She is the most improbable kid on earth”. I couldn’t agree more.

    She’s improbable in present-day developed countries. Not that there aren’t 10-year-olds in present-day developed countries who’ve cultivated pretty strong survival skills and street smarts born from necessity–an example: some poorer urban neighborhoods with high crime rates. But it’s not quite the same.

    On the other hand, there are child soldiers even today. Kids can grow up quickly enough if they’re faced with a sufficiently dire situation. This understanding coupled with the “civilized nations” of the ASoIaF novels being rather less so than our own world makes me less than eager to say Arya is “unrealistic.” I’m sure medieval Europe had no shortage of kids training with a sword for inevitable battles.

  146. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Conversely, if Lysa’s child had lived, how old would it now be?

  147. Inkasrain
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    ieiazel,

    I agree completely. I’ve always thought that Sansa was the infinitely more realistic character of the two girls. Arya seems to me as very much calculated to win the hearts of modern readers. She loves the outdoors. She wants to learn to swordfight. She doesn’t care for the boundaries of class, rank and gender. She’ll make friends with anyone. She considers Jon her full brother. And she’s looked down on by many more dislikable characters– a surefire way to earn her sympathy.

    Honestly, it’s hard for me to consider Arya a fully realized character early on, because she’s just too easy to root for. She seems to me a transplant from our world into Westeros; it’s almost like the readers aren’t given a choice whether to root for Arya or not, and it’s made me resent her a little bit.

  148. Evoldoer
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Cutter Allen Kilgore,

    I’m with you!

  149. reedgirl
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    ‘Teams’ are child’s play.

    House Stark.
    There is no other house. “Winter is Coming”. I can see the heraldic wolf merchandise now. Castle Black/Night’s Watch are also made of win. “Night gathers and now my watch begins”, “I am the sword in the darkness” – all words I’d be happy to wear across my breast. Jon Snow. Nuff said.

    House Lannister is for punks, House Tully = Hufflepuff, and don’t even bother mentioning the drunken-reindeer of House Baratheon. Yeah, them’s fighin’ words! *spits chewing tobacco* I respectfully decline to incite the ire of House Targaryen. There’s room enough for both of us in ASOIAF. You cook em, we freeze em for storage.

    (PS: I love you WiC for forgetting that b-list suitor’s name from Twishite, but isn’t the stalker-vampire that Demi Lovato throws her life away for named Justin Bieber?)

  150. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    Speaking as the father of an 8 year old tomboy, I can assure you that Arya is every bit as realistic as Sansa. Also, speaking as a father of two, its amazing how different two children can be when brought up in the same house with the same rues. George demonstrates this difference of personalities incredibly well.

  151. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Aside from the obvious (I love Tyrion, Jon, & Arya the most out of all the S1 POVs) I think Bronn is going to end up stealing a lot of scenes and getting quite a following, despite a likable yet doomed Knight of the Vale….when the show airs, it’s a safe assumption that, as it was in the books, people will be drawn to charismatic characters.

    Not so much the characters like Catelyn–who will fill your standard overprotective, bland mother role–necessary, but not too exciting. Fairley (and the writers) have a Herculean task if they want to transcend that limitation. I hope they can, but lines like “It should have been you” certainly aren’t going to do her any favors.

  152. dizzy_34
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    reedgirl,

    What?
    You know you would sport a “We Do Not Sow” golden kraken. Or a Frey Twins or a Martel Sunspear. Lot’s of cool arms for this series.

  153. dizzy_34
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    oh how could I forget a Bolton Flayed Man.

  154. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    dizzy_34: reedgirl,
    What?
    You know you would sport a “We Do Not Sow” golden kraken. Or a Frey Twins or a Martel Sunspear. Lot’s of cool arms for this series.    

    I don’t know too many fans of the series who are going to be interested in sporting the Frey sigil. Death to the Freys!

  155. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Er, I should probably have spoiler-tagged that entire response. I’d be obliged if a mod could take care of it :)

  156. The Rabbit
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    A bit older than Robb? I guess…

  157. werewolfetiquette
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    The twilight references–team this and team that–are wholly unnappropiate for this far superior literary accomplishment. I cringe everytime I see the association.

  158. Inkasrain
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    I’m not saying that it’s impossible for someone like Arya to have tomboy tendencies and a vastly different personality from her sister, but she hits pretty much every box on the modern likability checklist. She is unadulterated awesome, and I still tend to think a girl raised as Arya has been would have been influenced in some way by the hierarchical, unequal society that is her daily reality. Just my perception, of course, but I really don’t see the reader is given anything at all to dislike about Arya until later in the series, and it rubs me the wrong way.

  159. dizzy_34
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Ah, some ironic fools would. ;) Heh, heh, heh…

  160. reedgirl
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Zack: Death to the Freys!

    x1000. In slow and painful ways.

    And I am a twin and a Gemini. Mores the pity…

  161. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    As long as one thinks it’s bad to obey your parents and do the things that you are required of you I guess that can be true. Personally I’d say that the bad side of Arya is that she has her own way of being spoiled by always wanting things to be her way, despite that other things are required from her.

  162. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    She may be the daughter of a Lord, but the unequality in the North doesn’t seem to be quite as defined as it is in the South. Plus, as a small child under a Septa’s guidance I’m sure she’s been taught to respect her elders. Sansa is a bit older and has had more time to develop some negative stereotypes, but even she is respectful around older people. She’s realy only super snobby to Arya. She mught have the negative feelings towards her “lessers”, but she is constantly remembering her manners in speaking to them.
    Also, being a tomboy, I would tend to think that Arya’s proclivity to get dirty would bring her into contact with more of the peasants of Winterfell and therefor come to know them and respect them more a people than Sansa who is consumed with becoming a Lady and focuses on them mosty as servants.
    Another way to look at it is tha Sansa is by far more Tully and Arya is a true Stark.

  163. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Tywin’s Bastard,

    Good point. Arya certainly knows she has some immunity when it comes to getting into trouble as compared to say Mycah, the butcher’s son.

  164. DH87
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain: I still tend to think a girl raised as Arya has been would have been influenced in some way by the hierarchical, unequal society that is her daily reality.

    Oh, I think she has been influenced, completely: the “long faced” description seals Arya’s fate. She is not pretty: that has been the determinator of women’s health and happiness for thousands of years. It is the reason why Sansa is “destined” to wed Joffrey, the reason why Catelyn has very little interest in her younger daughter, the reasonwhy Arya is mistaken for a boy one hundred times throughout the books, the reason Arya turns to Ned and Jon for validation and sees herself as alienated as Jon does. It is the reason Austen’s Mrs. Bennet pins her hopes for financial security on Jane, not Elizabeth; the reason Mr. Brown makes Velvet Brown wear her retainer even though she has just won the Grand National, the reason Scarlett O’Hara marries three times and sister Sue Ellen remains a spinster. Arya can be anything, go anywhere, do anything because she is invisible in the way every girl/woman learns to accept sooner or later.

  165. Blackfish Blues
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    userj:
    Jorah – most of Dany’s appearances include Jorah (other than the various sex scenes). Plus Iain Glen is very charismatic.
    [snip]
    Ned vs. Jaime:
    It pains me to make this comparison because I had a rather unpleasant *achem* falling out with LOST but…It appears they are setting this up kind of like the Jack versus Sawyer thing from LOST.On the extreme end they may pull some of the Book 3 Jaime material to make him more sympathetic (though I really hope not).Perhaps a flashback.At the least, they will play the snark/humor up a lot, particularly when Jaime interacts with Tyrion.And this will be in stark (haha) contrast to Ned’s icy humorless attitude.At any rate Jaime will be much less of a non-character than he was in the book.I expect he will have fans right away.

    Agreed about Jorah. As for Jack vs. Sawyer… don’t reopen this wound! ;) At least Jaime and Ned don’t have an improbable airhead criminal fumbling with her gun and sniffling after whichever of them is Her One True Love of the Week. (I don’t hate Kate, although the actress’ simpering often grated on me; I hated the way she was written.)

    Rose:
    I like Lysa. She was a sweet, happy-go-lucky girl who always felt insecure next to her big sister and who could never get the boy she loved to look her way. And then she was given a forced abortion, was sent off to a cold tower to be married to an old man she didn’t love and who didn’t love her, and the only person who showed her any affection was her child.How is that not sympathetic?I find it interesting (here I go on gender again) that obsession and near-madness due to inrequited love is considered way more sympathetic in a male character than a female.

    Your last point is very intriguing and would deserve more room, maybe on the Westeros board? As for Lysa specifically, I don’t like her much, but I’ve always been surprised that on the day of Catelyn and Lysa’s double weddings, the Blackfish had his final falling out with Hoster and chose to go away and follow Lysa, despite evidently being on better terms with Cat. I think he rightly judged Lysa as being the weaker of the two, a “damaged” young woman he might have wanted to protect and redeem. In one occasion he says that “the right woman” can rule. Maybe he hoped that Lysa would became a good and wise Lady of the Eyrie. Since I tend to trust the Blackfish’s common sense, through his eyes I can catch a more sympathetic glimpse of Lysa – until after some 17 years even he had enough and left slamming the door behind him.

    Steel_Wind:
    Among fans, I think the early favorite for “most improved following” will not be Sansa — it will be Viserys.

    I agree. It’s an instinctive feeling. I don’t like Viserys, but from the specials it’s clear that Harry Lloyd’s eyes, voice and gestuality will set fire to the screen – rightly so!

    reedgirl:
    House Tully = Hufflepuff.

    YES! YES! YES! Tullypuff for the win! ;)

  166. ieiazel
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Comparing Arya to war children is valid only at the end of GOT, when the war actually begins. My saying that she is improbable doesn’t limit to that period, but to Arya’s personality in general. Arya purposefully doesn’t fit in the teenager stereotype so that you can root for the underdog, easy as that. I rooted for her, of course, at the beginning of the book, but as the story developed I found myself more identified with Sansa because I was quite the innocent teenager, with my pop idols and my dreams, and Arya’s wildness sometimes seems forced. You will find many more Sansas than Aryas, at least in my experience.

    But without comparing her with Arya, Sansa has developed quite well, and her reactions to the circumstances are very reasonable (most of the times).

  167. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    This is all true, but perhaps simplified to emphasize the external factors over which she had no control while minimizing her choices. Arya may not have Sansa-beauty, but if she were so inclined, she could wear her pretty gowns and learn ‘proper’ needlework (as opposed to Needle-work) but she chooses to wear her hair like a boy and play outside in the dirt.

    I think a lot of what separates Arya and Sansa is more than just the superficiality of their looks. My belief is that we come into the world with our future personalities to some not-insignificant degree already kind of coded into our DNA. Arya just identified more with boy-stuff.

  168. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    What I meant with my previous post was to help to answer how Arya is able to pull off her chameleon boy-ruse. Keep in mind that scuffed knees, soiled clothes, short, mussed hair and an ever-present scowl can mask a gender as much as or more than simple “ugliness.”

  169. spacechampion
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    If there is one thing I wish for the series to add is a House Martin whose words are “He is Not Your Bitch”.

    Team GRRM for the win!

  170. DH87
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    I might be a bit more convinced of your point if GRRM had made the two sisters equal in conventional beauty. I inferred a cause and effect. I give great credit to Arya not to attempt to be something she can’t be—no amount of needlework and pretty dresses will make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear in the marriage market (except to Gendry, who thinks she looks like a proper lady when she’s dressed up —not a coincidence in my mind).

  171. DH87
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    I also don’t think it is a coincidence that the other woman active in men’s (non-sexual) pursuits in GRRM’s world is Brienne, who is called “ugly” more often than anything other than “tall” and mocked relentlessly for her lack of conventional beauty. GRRM casts the lack of conventional beauty as freeing, not limiting. The conventional beauties are Cersei, Dany, Margaery, Sansa and the prostitutes. None of them has a life of ease. All are trophies of the men in their lives.
    That said, if Arya had been a conventional beauty, I have no doubt Catelyn and Septa Mordane would have begun to take her in hand and make a marriage prospect out of Arya whether she liked it or not. The stakes for the Starks would have been too high not to do so.

  172. Dennai
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Taking Tyrion as a hostage was an event she did not think through

    Of course, she didn’t. She wasn’t thinking, she was in panic. I don’t get why people keep forgetting that she didn’t want to do anything with Tyrion. She’s praying for him not to look her way, not to see her, not to reconigse her. She wanted get away unseen and reach safety in Winterfell. But he saw her, and reconigsed her, and when that happened, she only thought that the man who tried to kill his son for Gods know what reasons , could very well be a threat to her person. She only has an elderly bodyguard with her. Tyrion two, and very probably enough money to hire more in that very same inn. In Catelynn’s mind, from the moment that Tyrion saw her, she was in mortal danger every step on the way home. She took the only way out she could see. She had felt the sharp edge of a knife tearing her skin not too long ago. No wonder she wasn’t keen to relive the experience.

  173. userj
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    It’s debatable whether Arya is pretty or not in the books. Comparisons have been made to Lyanna who was good-looking enough to woo the hearts of the most powerful men in Westeros.

    What’s not debatable is whether Arya is pretty in the TV show – Maisie Williams is a DARLING! She is ADORABLE! So we can’t use that as an excuse now anyway.

    Is Arya unrealistic? I think so, especially in AGoT. She feels like she is from a different book. Is she completely flawless? NO. She shows no sympathy towards Sansa after Lady is killed (even though in part this was Arya’s fault). With a few exceptions she is generally rude to people she first meets (much like Jon, and quite unlike Sansa).

    Is Arya or Sansa the “true Stark”? Well! If we think that Ned Stark is the epitome of all that is Stark, then it’s Sansa, not Arya that has more in common with him.

    Ned and Sansa are extremely idealistic and traditional in their values. Ned thinks a lady should grow up to marry an handsome prince/lord and raise his sons. So does Sansa. In contrast, Arya says to this “No, that’s Sansa!” and runs off.
    Ned thinks that people should act honorably and within their station, and so does Sansa. Arya runs around playing with street urchins rather than hanging out with Princess Myrcella, a girl her own age.
    Ned shows absolutely no ability to understand the minds of treacherous and evil people, nor does Sansa (both to their sorrow). Arya is streetwise (well beyond her years) and survives multiple attempts to kidnap her because from the start she trusts no one.
    Ned believes that people are generally trustworthy and will act with honor given the choice (Littlefinger and Cersei), so does Sansa. In contrast, Arya assumes everyone is out to get her (and is mostly right).

    Yes Sansa begins to learn, but she is really as idealistic as Ned to start with…

  174. corbob
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Definitely a Team Stark here.

  175. Kung Fu Blunt
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Did you just compare a game of thrones to the twilight series?

  176. Dennai
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    the reason why Catelyn has very little interest in her younger daughter

    Please, give me just a book reference of that, because I remember Catelyn thinking on her daughters always in plural, nor I recall Arya thinking to be neglected or ignored by her mother, neither mention or suggestion in Ned’s or Jon’s thoughs for that matter. In fact, the presence of Catelyn with Septa Mordane after Arya’s mischief tells me that Catelyn takes seriously her younger daughter’s education.

    if Arya had been a conventional beauty, I have no doubt Catelyn and Septa Mordane would have begun to take her in hand and make a marriage prospect out of Arya whether she liked it or not.

    Making a marriage prospects out of Arya requires no effort, comes from the craddle. She’s a noble, a Lord’s daughter, therefore, a marriage prospect.

    You make it sound like Catelyn gave up and cancelled any futher instruction for Arya because she thought it was a lost case. Probably for Septa Mordane was, and she would be happy having her away, but Catelyn woudn’t have any of it. Arya was provided with the proper education and formation a daughter’s Lord was supossed to have. She wasn’t very good at it, but her perceived lack of prettiness had nothing to do with that.

  177. TheFacelessMan
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    izakmo,

    Agreed! Bronn is the silent bad-ass type always lurking around.

  178. TheFacelessMan
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t seen too much love in the “Rise to Popularity” category for Jorah, who is one of my favorites (and who without Dany’s whole arc would not be nearly as interesting ….. well maybe still great but you know what I mean), and is a very sympathetic character in my opinion. The things we do for love. Applies.

  179. paulgude
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Dennai,

    Exactly so.

    It was a thinking-on-your-feet moment, and portrayed as such.

  180. persephone88
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    For me, it’s always been Team Jaime and Team Sandor.

    Jaime Lannister is such an anti-hero, the guy you love to hate in book 1 but you have to admire his utter brazeness and bravado. The Hound just doesn’t give a crap what anybody else thinks. He does horrible things, but then cracks of this pitiful side show around Sansa. I think Jaime is a shoo-in for the fans…then by Season Three he really comes into his own. Such a plum part for an actor if the series makes it that long.

    With Sandor, it’s going to be harder mustering the sympathy, I think, partly because he doesn’t have that Jaime sex appeal and confidence – he’s dour, merciless and seems to have little to like other than being a dogged fighter. I think the scene where Sansa sings, he is really going to have to bring the acting chops for fans to see him as possibly more than a pure villain up front.

    I am HOPING that Robert gets some fans. Loved Robert in the book. Even though he was on the decline, and impetuous, stubborn, boorish, etc. he was funny, he had a certain lust for life and wit that was such a contrast to Ned’s straightlaced lawful good persona. In the clips, I don’t get that from Robert, he just seems old and bitter and angry. I hope some of his merry side that was shown in his early scenes with Ned in the book come out.

    Really excited to see Syrio – he could be a major fan favorite too, as both the character as written and the actor are so agreeable!

    I think Arya and Bran will both easily endear themselves to the fans. Depending on how sympathetically Sansa is played, she could also be a popular character. I am anxious to see how Peter Dinklage captures Tyrion’s wit and sympathy, his most endearing qualities to me.

    I think Jory could become more of a standout than in the books, as his role seems a bit bigger, he’s a staunch Ned defender, and the actor is very good looking.

    I think those who could go either way are Dany, Catelyn and Jon. I’m hoping Jon isn’t TOO broody and emo in the show or he’ll become a bit of a caricature. Catelyn has to show some fire and strength or she could come across as the bitter stepmother who makes bad decisions. And Dany walks a fine line between innocence and dopey-ness in her early scenes if she’s not played right, her transformation into the Khaleesi has to be believable and really show some inner resolve and strength.

    Those I just couldn’t find anything remotely likable about are Theon, and Joffrey. Joffrey is so thoroughly bratty and self-centered, and I haven’t found the Greyjoys to be likable at all, though I’m hoping that maybe the Damphair will drown Theon for real in some later novel. Even Asha left me cold.

    For season two – I just hope the totally nail casting Jaqen H’gar – he is probably my favorite character in book 2.

  181. Tysnow
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Below is a perfect example of someone we consider as a beauty in our world but in Westerosean culture would be considered non-conventional and by most men, especially nobles and knights, unattractive.

    Brk Shds

  182. shadallion
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Loras will be the most popular, right up until when the show him getting analized by Renly.

  183. Jarmel
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    userj: DH87,
    It’s debatable whether Arya is pretty or not in the books.Comparisons have been made to Lyanna who was good-looking enough to woo the hearts of the most powerful men in Westeros.What’s not debatable is whether Arya is pretty in the TV show – Maisie Williams is a DARLING!She is ADORABLE!So we can’t use that as an excuse now anyway.Is Arya unrealistic?I think so, especially in AGoT.She feels like she is from a different book.Is she completely flawless?NO. She shows no sympathy towards Sansa after Lady is killed (even though in part this was Arya’s fault).With a few exceptions she is generally rude to people she first meets (much like Jon, and quite unlike Sansa).Is Arya or Sansa the “true Stark”?Well!If we think that Ned Stark is the epitome of all that is Stark, then it’s Sansa, not Arya that has more in common with him.Ned and Sansa are extremely idealistic and traditional in their values.Ned thinks a lady should grow up to marry an handsome prince/lord and raise his sons.So does Sansa.In contrast, Arya says to this “No, that’s Sansa!” and runs off.
    Ned thinks that people should act honorably and within their station, and so does Sansa.Arya runs around playing with street urchins rather than hanging out with Princess Myrcella, a girl her own age.
    Ned shows absolutely no ability to understand the minds of treacherous and evil people, nor does Sansa (both to their sorrow).Arya is streetwise (well beyond her years) and survives multiple attempts to kidnap her because from the start she trusts no one.
    Ned believes that people are generally trustworthy and will act with honor given the choice (Littlefinger and Cersei), so does Sansa.In contrast, Arya assumes everyone is out to get her (and is mostly right).Yes Sansa begins to learn, but she is really as idealistic as Ned to start with…    

    This is a very interesting and accurate analysis. It also made me compare Arya to Catelyn and how both are free spirits and really just do what they want. I never really thought about comparing Ned to Sansa and the way you put it is quite enlightening.

  184. DeadAngel
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    I think Bran will gain the most popularity boost. Tyrion, Arya,danny,Ned and Jon are already most ppls top 5. I cannot see Sansa gaining that much popularity at least not until mid to late season two She is a spoiled brat who is the reason for Ned’s beheading, and while seeing her beaten late in season two might get pity points I imagine people will be still pissed at her char for getting Ned killed
    Jaimie will be same as the books imo as he stillthrows a little kid of a building and fucks his sister. Bran whose POVs were a little dry and boring to read will be much more interesting to see Whether it is the climb and fall of the tower or the “crow dreams” as well as other events which are far more interesting to see than watchwarging are why Bran will likely get the largest popularity boost between the books

  185. Biliki
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    I don’t have the time to comment properly, I just want to say one thing: If people stark making wars about Robb and Jon, I will go crazy. GRRM was very clever for not going cliché with their relationship. One would expect they’d be rivals, yet they are REAL BROTHERS. They love and respect each other. I love them both and support them equally, and one of the things I enjoy most is the love they have for each other. If people go Team Edward and Team Robb all over again, I don’t know if it will be more frustrating, sad, or amusing. It’s one thing to prefer one over the other, and it’s another thing to team them up against each other. So it’s ok if teams ‘Robb’ and ‘Jon’ and ‘Jaime’ and ‘Eddard’ start popping up, but if people get the notion that there is some kind of rivalry between them, that will be a huge fail. I don’t even get the idea that they’re ‘different’. Their looks are different, that one I get, but character-wise they are pretty much the same. Loyal, stubborn, brave, just, merciful. They just have been tangled up in different situations, that’s why they seen different. but when I think of one and then of the other, the same adjectives, the same characteristics come to mind. That’s one of the sweetest relationships in the book. When Jon tried to leave the wall ‘because he belonged with his brother’ I was in tears.

    I don’t know why I’m saying this, I’m not angry or anything, I just wanted to get it out of my chest :P

  186. Jimmy
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Coming back to the Sansa Arya dispute.

    SPOILER, kind of.

    People seem to dislike Sansa because she is not Arya, i.e. a badass character. But Sansa cannot be badass. She could not have survived Arya’a trip through the war-torn lands, because first she is not badass and second she is beatifull. Arya was a nobody, just a boy, a “harmless” boy. Sansa could not have hidded her beauty. Being dirty would not be enough.

    Imagine the scene where Arya was taken by Gregor’s band. What happened there? Nothing happened (to Arya)! What would have happened if it was Sansa? Or forget Sansa. What would have happened if Arya had Sansa’s looks? She would probably had been raped or worse, and she was in no position to defend herself. So, for Sansa (or Arya “with Sansa’s looks”) to survive around men (in general) in the wilderness, whe would have to be the reincarnation of Wonderwoman. Otherwise she would end up like Pia. Raped, beaten, toothless or dead (or all of it).

  187. mummer
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    [slight grousing: I'm not sure why I'm bothering to use spoiler tags now that pretty much no one else is, but what the hell...]

    Lord Ned’s Head,
    Seventeen or 18. This is one of the easier things to date because she was married off to Jon Arryn during Robert’s Rebellion– that was Hoster’s price for supporting Robert.

    Look, I’m not going to convince you you’re wrong, but I think it’s worth considering that GRRM has set up mysteries and dropped clues about them many times in the series, and this just isn’t the way he does it. He either leaves them completely mysterious, or he drops clues that the reader can plausibly put together without having to invent extra details– like your notion that a brothel owner who’s described only as a “buxom red-haired woman” is actually a teenage girl; sure, that’s possible, but if Martin wanted us to see her that way, he would’ve said so (remember how clearly he described all of Robert’s bastards) because otherwise a lot of readers would assume otherwise and he’d have to add some awkward bit later to clarify her age. Also, look at the order that these things happen in ASOS: Catelyn wonders if Tansy is a woman’s name, then we meet a woman named Tansy… but then we learn that tansy is an abortifacient, and then Lysa says flat out that she had an abortion using tansy, and then she dies.. Martin is clearly playing with us early on¸wanting us to wonder if the woman had something to do with it (although, judging by the Westeros board, what most people thought it might be was that Hoster had had an affair with her during the war)… but the timing of the later revelations makes it pretty clear, I think, what the final answer is that he had in mind. Or, if you’re right, that plot twist is going to be a lot clumsier and harder to swallow than any of his others so far.

  188. J
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    Yeah, what was important is the timing.

  189. Cornslayer
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Jimmy,

    That’s assuming people dislike Sansa because she’s girly. From what I’ve seen, people dislike Sansa because she wasn’t loyal to her family. Margaery and Myrcella both are as girly as Sansa, but they are loyal to their family and love their siblings, thus no disdain for them. I’d say these two, not Sansa, are what a young lady should be in Westeros. I like Sansa as a character because her story arc is fascinating, but I can’t say I like her as a person. I’ve always thought she’s so unattached to her world that it’s a bit unrealistic, but then I would think it was necessary for GRRM to establish her character that way.

  190. DH87
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Dennai: Please, give me just a book reference of that, because I remember Catelyn thinking on her daughters always in plural, nor I recall Arya thinking to be neglected or ignored by her mother, neither mention or suggestion in Ned’s or Jon’s thoughs for that matter.

    Fair question. I don’t recall a single scene in which Arya and Catelyn exchange words (correct me if I’m wrong) and C. expends precious little time in the whole series on Arya’s fate, although she eventually longs to see whichever of her daughters has survived and Arya wants to see C. We hear Septa say repeatedly she is going to report on Arya’s behavior to her lady mother and to her mother and her father (in Kings Landing). We get the impression that Catelyn will sympathize with the Septa’s report on A.’s disobedience and misbehavior, not attempt to understand or sympathize, as N. does. We see Ned treat Arya with great love and understanding, even hiring Serio for her, when Septa M. reports upon Arya’s behavior and Ned interviews A. on the death of L. Arya says she misses her brothers, not her mother, when she dines in KL. When Catelyn asks how Arya progresses, Septa says A. has the hands of a blacksmith. Ned says he and C. had tasked Septa with the “impossible” task of making A. a lady. Arya says, Sansa has everything…and that maybe by the time A. was born, there had been nothing left….worse, Sansa was beautiful. Finally Catelyn tells Robb she’s promised A. as part of their agreement in a way that carries no compassion.
    Horsefaced Arya knows she’s plain and has had no one tell her otherwise; a caring mother would have done so. C. has favorites among her offspring—Robb, Bran, and Sansa, based on their importance to the House of Stark and her preference for B.—and a second tier of children— Arya and Rickon, and of course Jon. If Catelyn had been a supportive, nurturing factor in Arya’s life, I just think we’d have gotten more of a sense of it.

  191. obsidian
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Still with Arya/Sansa…This is what makes Maisie so perfect – she is adorable, but in an unconventional way. Those that insist to see Arya as ugly must not have paid attention to the clues to the contrary coming from her father, mother , Gendry, etc., sprinkled throughout the novels.

    As to which girl is a true Stark..userj points out the similarities between Ned and Sansa..and Ned points out the similarities between Lyanna and Arya , in character as well as looks.:).. referring to a wild strain running through the Stark family that Ned’s father called the wolf blood.

    Both true Starks is my assessment.

    I think Sansa will gain in popularity even in the first season as POV’s will have to be blended in and we’ll see a bit of the emotion, reaction ,or whatever associated with Sansa’s actions.

  192. J
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    I never thought Gregor came off as evil in the books. Bad certainly, but his malice always seemed too simple to qualify as real evil. Just a guy who loved violence and was so big and strong that he was always able to dish out far more than he received.
    When taunted during a fight about one of his past episodes of violence (I can’t see the spoiler button, so I will just be vague) he seems far more concerned that his opponent shut up and fight than affected by recalling what he did.
    Given that we won’t be hearing everyone’s internal monologue of horror at the thought of his presence anywhere but next to you (or, better yet, in front of you) in a battle line, I think we will just be left with his sheer bad-assedness.
    Unless we hear everyone’s pre-conceived notions, he just seems like an ill-tempered, violent, but otherwise uncomplicated giant. He’ll probably come off more as a polar opposite of Tyrion than anything else.
    Gregor is thus my pick for biggest popularity spike. At least in the first book you only hate him because everyone else does.

  193. DH87
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    obsidian: Both true Starks is my assessment.

    Agree 100 percent. Arya is so intuitively, while Sansa discovers her Stark self through bitter experience.

  194. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    Not the only one! I felt much the same way. :/

  195. Inkasrain
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Jimmy: Imagine the scene where Arya was taken by Gregor’s band. What happened there? Nothing happened (to Arya)! What would have happened if it was Sansa?

    This is a very important point. Arya and Sansa are both suited to survive in the situations they are put into. Sansa’s personality, beauty and delicacy would have made it all but impossible to survive on the King’s Road, but it’s equally fair to say that Arya, with her temper, strong will and sense of justice, would not have lasted long had she been in Sansa’s position, either.

    DH87:
    Agree 100 percent. Arya is so intuitively, while Sansa discovers her Stark self through bitter experience.    

    I agree that both Sansa and Arya are Stark to the core, but I’ve been pleased on my rereading “Game of Thrones” to see, before experiencing any major trauma, how many times Sansa tells herself “I am a Stark of Winterfell” when she needs to marshal her courage or dignity. (Not unlike Dany’s “I am the blood of the dragon” refrain.) I do think Sansa’s familial loyalty strengthens once she is alone and drowning in a sea of Lannisters, but it definitely is there to begin with.

    And really, I think all of the Stark children live up to their name, no matter how much they may look like Tullys. (I’m dubious about how much mettle the Tullys really have, anyway; there seems to be a certain… brittleness there.)

  196. Stevon
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    I think the popularity of certain characters is going to be somewhat dependent on screen time. From the few previews, it seems like the production will try to feature Ned, Jon, and Dany. Presumably because those characters anchor the three main storylines.

    The problem is that there are SO many other characters, it will be tough to give everyone equal exposure. Ned obviously interacts with lots of other main characters, but I keep thinking the Jon and Dany stories will be proportionately larger than they were in the book. And that could mean lessening other roles.

    If I had to speculate, I’d say Catelyn is who stands to lose the most as the season goes on. After the inital few episodes at Winterfell, she’s basically tied to Tyrion, who I think will be the main focus of that storyline.

    As far as expanded roles (aside from Jon and Dany), I expect Cersei and Jaime to gain a bit more prominence. It seems like Jaime is going to become more of a direct adversary for Ned. And obviously, Season 2 will need a new main character to drive the action in the South, which is why I think Cersei will be featured heavily.

  197. aschen heaven
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    For me, Bran‘s going to be a winner in the TV series. Personally I found his chapters a bit…disconnected…from the high-stakes, fast-paced political chess down South, so I didn’t sympathize with him much (although what happened to him early on made me go ‘Holy…but that’s a kid!’). Cue the HBO series, the trailers and that adorable child actor. Imagining those scenes again (especially the one where he fell) with that kid is just heartwrenching.

    And Viserys! I’ve found Viserys to be a pathetic but tragic character in the books (doesn’t really excuse his behavior, but at least we have an idea what made him such a delusional fella) but Harry Lloyd as Viserys puts a gleam on the character. He doesn’t come across as petty anymore – he’s seems outright dangerous and barely-restrained crazy. It will be interesting to see his take on an authentically raving and unraveling Viserys. I’ll say I’ll miss him when he gets his crown…

    For his swordfighting badassery, I’ll go for Syrio Forel too. He could go one-scene wonder on us all, and establish himself (memetically) as Westeros’ biggest badass. XD I think Bronn already has his share of fans, but I guess it’s another thing to see the sellsword snark and fight onscreen. XD

    About the ‘team’ thing…I dunno, GOT is not your standard teenage demographic fare. Even if it has a cast of good-looking actors, it’s not a genre nor the type of story which will appeal to the Bieber fans. I guess there would be your standard fan factions (on which character/actor/actress is the best/hottest/most badass) and people swearing their allegiance to the different houses/organizations. I really couldn’t see vehement fan wars of the Twilight fandom-level XD

  198. obsidian
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    I’ve hopped and skipped around so much in the books I can’t remember where , but I think it may be when Catelyn is talking to Brienne, just before she releases Jaime ?..anyway, she seems to be more in despair of ever turning Arya into a lady because she’s always messy ,scabbed up and not at all interested in the womanly arts.. not because she’s ugly, or even particularly plain.

    Sansa looks like Catelyn , and is seen as beautiful from a young age. Arya has a long face , a common trait among the Starks. Yet she’s like Lyanna who was seen as beautiful. On the surface it seems contradictory, but when I was first reading GOT I was thinking of the tomboy/ ugly duckling sydrome and thinking of the people I’ve known whose looks don’t seem all that attractive until they hit puberty ..then suddenly a very ordinary looking kid can begin to grow into a very striking young woman, and I couldn’t help wondering what people may have made of Lyanna’s beauty when she was 10 .

    Maybe I’m wrong , but it seems to me that a lot of the negative comments about Arya’s looks come from her own POV’s ( therefore her own perceptions) and echo things other people have said when they were exasperated with her ( for being messy,scraped -up, unladylike, etc.) or for being Arya Underfoot , or from other kids ,who can be notoriously mean.

  199. Zack
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    obsidian: I’ve hopped and skipped around so much in the books I can’t remember where , but I think it may be when Catelyn is talking to Brienne, just before she releases Jaime ?..anyway, she seems to be more in despair of ever turning Arya into a lady because she’s always messy ,scabbed up and not at all interested in the womanly arts.. not because she’s ugly, or even particularly plain.

    Yes! There were indeed comparisons between Lyanna and Arya. But anyway I believe I found the quote you’re referring to. She’s just heard the news about Bran and Rickon, and has just finished telling Brienne how ladylike and beautiful Sansa was, while fighting tears.

    “And Arya, well…Ned’s visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy and half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart’s desire. She had Ned’s long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collect dolls, and would say anything that came into her head. I think she must be dead too.”

    There’s not much of any indication that Arya was ugly, really. “Ned’s long face” is the closest she gets to talking about static looks. Any other time she focuses on looks it’s how messy and scabby Arya gets. It may seem strange, but as I read that passage I hear a lot of exasperated love and horrible grief in my Catelyn-voice. I don’t think she favors Sansa, but it is pretty striking how different the two sisters are, and that’s what she’s emphasizing for Brienne IMO.

  200. paulgude
    Posted December 30, 2010 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    shadallion,

    I think you underestimate the average HBO subscriber.

  201. paulgude
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    shadallion,

    To explain further…

    The Wire Spoilers:

    One of HBO’s most popular recent characters was Omar Little of The Wire, who was shown engaged in some rather steamy male-on-male action during the series. While it may have turned off a few of the more prudish viewers, “prudish” and HBO don’t normally go hand in hand.

    Game of Thrones Spoilers:

    I realize some may think this case is different, where viewers may not be clued into the relationship between Renly and Loras and then feel that it’s gratuitous. We see Loras and Renly’s last days together through Catelyn initially, and it’s obviously to me that she’s got blinders on to their relationship. Will the same be said for the viewers once we’re taken out of the POV structure? A lot of that is in the hands of the production. Not to put to fine a point on it, but “getting analized by Renly,” as you say could end up being a tender scene to all but the most prudish of individuals. (On a side note, I realize you chose your terms for comedic effect, but homosexuals can engage in various methods of affection that don’t involve anything remotely anal, and just because Renly’s a man of power doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll be the top. Again, it all depends on what the show ends up wanting to convey.)

    I also realize you may be throwing out the suggestion that women will be fans of Loras until they find out he’s gay, and then feel let down and/or betrayed and no longer like him. It’s completely possible for someone to convert sexual attraction to strong feelings of loyalty in these situations, as anyone who went to high school in the Midwest in the late 80s can attest.

    Again, I realize that you may have brought this up simply for jest, but it’s an interesting topic.

  202. Becks
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 3:05 am | Permalink

    This is a television show. There will be teams.

    I will be VERY interested to see the audience consensus on Jon and Robb. They’re both heartthrobs in the making, but it seems like from the promotional material that Jon is so much more prominent than Robb that maybe it will be a non-issue.

    I have high hopes from Jaime and Tyrion. PLEASE let them be like the books!!!

  203. 1radioheader
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 4:54 am | Permalink

    Is this the CIA?
    Why so many redacted lines?
    I know you want to reduce spoilers for those that are totally unfamiliar, but is there an uncensored board for those of us that have actually read all the (so-far-published) books?

  204. Monkey
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    For me I reckon the most improved is going to be Sam. I never really got into him in the books, mostly because he comes across as super pathetic and his really cool moments are always distilled by his negative POV. And when I first saw John Bradley I wasn’t expecting to think any different but after seeing him in costume I think I’m gonna really love him. Partly cause he actually looks kinda badass, partly cause he looks cute with a beard.

    Viserys and Bran are also gonna be right up there. I’m a huge Harry Lloyd fangirl and I can already tell he’ll be amazing while Bran looks all kinds of adorable. Jaime and Sandor don’t count cause I already love them to bits.

    Oh, and the Twilight comparisons are dumb and we should all drop them right now.

    paulgude,

    Agreed. And there are plenty of girls out there where it will just make them like Loras more. Just look at all the Wincest fanfic there is for Supernatural as an example.

  205. Goldzor
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    1radioheader,

    Well you can go on the Westeros forum but it’s more about the book than the show. You can find the link below on this site

  206. Steve
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    Team Sansa!!! <3

  207. Zack
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Six Feet Under featured a prominent gay relationship as well. I really don’t think your average HBO viewer is going to be bothered. GoT isn’t going to be a series for tween girls. Some might find their way to it but it won’t be one of the bigger percentages of viewers.

    I may be alone on this one, as well, but I’m really looking forward to extended Renly/Loras scenes. They could be some of the most emotionally-packed moments in the series.

  208. MWads
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    1radioheader,

    You can just highlight the censored portion to read what was said. I wouldn’t think that another, uncensored board is needed.

  209. Tar Kidho
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    I think the perception of the Dothraki as a people might be most changed, depending on how (detailed) they will be depicted. Despite the fact that the Dothraki are a rather cruel society, the people we get to know most in the books (Khal Drogo, Irri, and a few others) managed to show a more ‘civil’ side as well. In the books this might work better than at the screen? Let’s wait and see, just like for the other characters.

    One more thing: please stop this entire ‘Team x’ nonsense… ASOIAF is much too complex to fit such puberal categorization!

  210. Tysnow
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    My belief is that Tyrion like in the books will garner a lot of sympathy from the viewer. The audience realizes he was not responsible and all that happens to him as a result of that incident is injustice. Arya’s Army will be massive, and that is directly associated with HBO’s casting Maisie in the role, she will be a true scene thief. Bran will attract a strong tween contingent, Isaac comes across with such strong facial expression in those few brief clips I can see all the 10-15 year olds falling over over him and as he ages through the series his following will grow.
    Emilia and Kit have to be very careful in their portrayals because if Jon and Dany become to self absorbed in their woes and tribulations they may come across as entitled and arrogant to the viewer and not sympathetic. NCW will rule the 25-40 female demo and Loras the 16-24, Lena will grab the 16-24 year old males and Sansa the 25-35 demo, as younger men like older women and older men the younger. Everyone will love Sean Bean because he is Sean Bean. They went with more motherly for Catleyn and mark my words come awards time Ms Fairley will receive numerous cudos, as Michelle is a powerful stage actress and will rule her scenes. Overall though I feel if the series portrays the characters as in the books the following from the viewers will match those of the readership.

  211. Inkasrain
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    In terms of Loras and Renly, I’m also looking forward to seeing their relationship in greater depth. That said, I’d still prefer if they kept it on an emotional level this season, and went physical in season two. Both characters have larger roles in “Clash of Kings”, and by that point, the audience will have the benefit of being familiar with their relationship, and getting physical onscreen won’t come across as deliberately sensational. I think milage may vary a lot on this issue, though.

    One thing I am especially curious about is the timeline of the relationship. All we can really infer from the books is that they were definitely an ‘item’ by the time Catelyn comes to negotiate with Renly, but we don’t know when they met or how long they’ve actually been together. I wonder if D&D worked this out themselves, or if they asked GRRM for his vision of the length and progression of Loras and Renly’s relationship.

  212. obsidian
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Aren’t there small hints dropped almost from the outset ? I seem to remember Littlefinger warning Sansa it was useless to fantasize about Loras too much…and other small hints here and there. But they really start to add up by the time Catelyn goes to Renly.

    Zack : Yes, that’s the passage I meant. And I agree.. I never felt that Cat loved Sansa more , just that she didn’t know what to do with Arya. That said , I always felt Cat kept her motherly tendencies in rein..how she could still harbour so much resentment of Jon ,after having him around for 14 yrs. or so …basically being a good dutiful kid … caused me to see her as not particularly nurturing. ( though Family and Duty obviously do mean a lot to her.)

  213. paulgude
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    There are definitely hints throughout. The speculation is that HBO may be more overt. On that note, I’ve seen several discussions where people have refused to believe it until they’re sent to a link where GRRM confirms it.

  214. lorinheller
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Mark me another Cat and Sansa supporter. Sansa was only 12 when she made her mistakes, and has been paying a disproportionate penalty ever since. Cat (and Eddard) were manipulated expertly. Everything Cat ever did made sense to me from her perspective and what was happening to her at the time. Even her treatment of Jon was understandable, if unacceptable.

    A lot of people are angry at Ned for his tragic error and for being so stupid. Me, I don’t see Ned as being stupid, just completely unequipped in his nature to fully comprehend the grayness of the world. (Thanks to my wife for helping me spell that out.) He, himself, realized in the beginning of GoT that he was going to a place that wasn’t for him, but decided he didn’t have a choice. His fate was sealed from the moment he left Winterfell.

    This probably reveals my ignorance for Greek and Shakespearian tragedies, but have there been other characters prior to ASOIF whose tragic flaw was being too honorable or compassionate? That’s one of the things which so fascinated me about Ned and the series as a whole. That being too good could be your downfall.

    There are certainly a lot of completely irredeemable characters, but the one at the top of my list is Joffrey. Yes, I suppose it is hypocritical for me to excuse Sansa for his age but not Joff; however, in my opinion, no other characters in ASOIF take as much sadistic joy out of causing death and misery as Joff does.

    Jory is going to see a rise in popularity as they are increasing his role size, from the looks of things.

    And Old Nan’s speech is my favorite part of the trailer, so I’m hoping she gets some love.

    obsidian,

  215. frank ramirez
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Frank Ramirez,

    hmmm i can see that, good point… i just always enjoyed his POV from the books, I’m a strange one though because i don’t find danny’s particularly interesting hahah i know, i know, blasphemer! :)

  216. J
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Loras and Renly never do a public display of affection in the books.
    Regarding the relationship, here is what we have implied from others’ comments:
    1. The relationship began when Loras was Renly’s squire (I don’t feel like searching through the books for the quote, but it is something like “you know how close knights and squires can become”)
    2. Renly was the top and they did engage in anal sex. (again, (I don’t feel like searching through the books for the quote, but it is something like “If you don’t listen to me I’m going to shove this blade in places even Renly never found. “)

    Yeah, I know the spoiler tag was probably unnecessary.

  217. Zack
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Just Google “Are Loras and Renly gay?” The first result serves as pretty good evidence that they had to have been. In particular, I always remembered “When the sun has set, no candle can replace it” from Loras.

  218. obsidian
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    paulgude I think the L/R thing is bound to be more overt , simply because it will be visual. But like Inkasrain, I’m hoping that it will be not too explicit from the get go. (And for the same reasons.) Significant looks and lingering touches should be enough for starters. I found Loras’ comment to Tyrion very touching ( something about when the sun has been extinguished, no candle will suffice..) so I think it needs to be established that they boy is in love ,not just looking for a good time. At the same time, I don’t think their back story needs to be explored much, since they are at best secondary characters. When or how they first got together is neither here nor there .

  219. paulgude
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    J,

    I love spoiler tags.

    ACoK Spoilers:

    There’s nothing very overt, but there is this:

    “From time to time, King Renly would feed Margaery some choice morsel off the point of his dagger, or lean over to plant the lightest of kisses on her cheek, but it was Ser Loras who shared most of his jest and confidences.”

    Subtle, certainly, but someone with more eyes for this sort of thing than Catelyn may pick up on it.

    There’s no reason to think that their relationship won’t still be secret, just that the camera may go places the POV characters will not.

    In this vein, there’s absolutely no reason to believe that Jaime had any personal knowledge of the mechanics of Loras and Renly’s physical relationship. His statement is a cutting generalization and and educated guess. He’s simply hinting at their relationship, not speaking from graphic knowledge about who plays what part behind closed doors.

  220. paulgude
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Dang.

    As much as I love spoiler tags, I clearly need a refresher course on how they’re used.

    Nothing that hasn’t been stated already, I guess. Still, if any mods want to turn the whole thing into a mess of black, feel free.

  221. paulgude
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    I agree with all this. I think a “less is more” approach is kind of essential to establish the nature of their relationship.

  222. obsidian
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Oh,boy..here I am again. Some things I’ve had swimming around in my brain :

    I completely agree that Syrio could attract a large following. He’s already an appealing character in the books and then Miltos is, himself, very appealing… so I won’t be the only one hoping against hope that he somehow survives. To go a bit book-centric , I keep saying to myself – If,as it seems, the Hound ( or the Sandor part of him ) survives, why not Syrio? Please ? …No, I will not grow up.

    I also agree that Arya and Sansa are uniquely suited to cope with their own set of circumstances , and can’t help feeling that in Sansa’s case, this could lead to the ultimate downfall of Littlefinger. He’s giving her insight into all his machinations , but deep down she is a Stark of Winterfell and sooner or later that innate sense of justice and honour will out.

    Gregor ? No, he is all bad, not just badass. It’s not just badassery to shove your brother’s face into a brazier and hold it there, because he touched your toy.

  223. OldGran
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    I think Dany could be either wildly popular or the whole Dany/dothraki story line could undermine the whole GOT series if not done carefully. I have high hopes that HBO is doing it right. However there is a lot that could go wrong with this part of the story. The idea of an innocent young girl married off to a fierce primitive War Lord is the stuff of romance novels (bodice rippers) and can be cheese if not careful. Then there is the Dragons. they will be more difficult to get right than Others or Wights. All that said I think Dany could have a huge following, because she is so pretty and she has the beautiful handmaidens.

  224. persephone88
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Good points, PaulGude. Omar Little was one of the best and baddest characters on the Wire, and if Renly and Loras come even close to his level of popularity, they’ll have done well.

  225. paulgude
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    Something else on this score:

    Even if we don’t see Syrio again, I think Miltos Yerolemou could make another appearance. The man who gives Arya the coin’s most distinguishing feature is his thick black curls. Is it a mere coincidence a man with such hair was brought in to play a bald man? Might HBO be thinking of doing the unthinkable and mash up these characters? (Or, is a crazy theory that’s been floating around actually more legitimate than it seems?)

  226. Justin Dean Nelson
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    I just reread AFfC and I really like Margaery. I hope she gets a good actress.

    I don’t need to see Renly and Loras having sex, I would rather have that time for story. So I hope they keep all sex, M/F, F/F/ M/M to a low. If I want that I can watch porn. But Robbs or Jamie naked ass would be nice. :)

  227. Dennai
    Posted December 31, 2010 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Really, paul I expected much, much better from you. I can’t believe somebody usually so sound can’t subscribe to the crackpotters who think Syrio survives his encounter with Trant

  228. obsidian
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    paulgude and Dennai Thanks for keeping me entertained on an otherwise boring New Year’s Eve.

    I’ve missed discussion of that crazy theory, but somehow ,I managed to think of it for myself. I don’t say I believe it, though I may wish it in my heart of hearts , but in Westeros, stranger things have happened. It’s quite striking how many characters are believed to be dead, only to reappear later, one way or another. :) Also, our ( ahem ) occasionally playful author has left the door ajar on this one and gone on to plant a few teeny-tiny seeds ( which , of course , might be the seeds of red herrings ) and left other ambiguities that raise the ” crazy” possibility.

    So , we don’t see Syrio die. Later, when Arya meets Jaqen, his speech is ” like Syrio but not like Syrio” which probably plays a part in her being drawn to him and saving him. Still later, we find Jaqen can change his appearance at will …and the face he wears when he gives her the coin bears some similarity to Lady Merrywether’s lover and a striking similarity to the man who ‘becomes” Pate ( but who displays no Syrio or Jaqen-like speech pattern). Two or three distinct men, or..???

    I’ll be tickled whichever way it turns out , but I am fond of Syrio..

  229. paulgude
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    obsidian,

    Exactly this. I should point out, however, that it’s Miltos Yerolemou’s resemblance to the description of the man Jaqen becomes that has me even considering this possibility. If they had cast a bald man, I wouldn’t have given the theory much credence at all.

  230. paulgude
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Dennai,

    I live to disappoint.

  231. obsidian
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Yep. The curls give me hope. But whoever that curly haired guy is, I’mcurious to know whose agent he is and what’s his game..I’m very taken with Jaqen, too..and where does he have to be, I wonder?

  232. Feeblegenius
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 4:45 am | Permalink

    Since I’m a 1st time poster, I’m condensing a few thoughts I might have added elsewhere.

    What is all this hooey about sympathy? We need lots of villains with so many characters. I don’t want to feel for Cersei, Joff, Sansa, Cat, etc when we all know they say and do despicable things. I want to hate Viserys as much as I did in the books. Not make excuses for him. Martin shows us the faults of the “good guys”…sure, but I never had any doubt who the baddies are.

    Next, I know POVs can’t fully be covered, but is it so hard to believe that Gregor’s pure evil or Tyrion’s supreme wit can’t be conveyed in other ways? A picture is worth a thousand words, folks.

    Also, the age excuse doesn’t fly for Sansa’s treachery(ies). Not within Westeros where 8 year olds are subject to beheadings, 13 year olds are married, and 15 year olds lead armies! This is not subburban Midwest U.S.

    I worry about the Jaime that will be shown. He was hardly in book 1, so him gaining popularity in S1 might come off contrived. He has to be an asshole before his proper arc takes form later on. Same with lots of others in that light. The timing is pretty crucial.

    I love Lord Mormont, Sandor and Syrio and I love this site!

  233. SirOccam
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    I think Sansa is going to come across much less sympathetically due to the aging up. I really liked her in the books because I felt bad for her. She was young and naive and even though she caused great trouble for herself and others, I really want her to not only survive but thrive. Hopefully those lessons from Littlefinger will come in handy.

    In the show, I don’t think much of that will come through. She looks much older, so if she makes the same errors in judgment, I fear it will come across as stupidity–if not something worse–instead of honest mistakes.

  234. SebOneOnly
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Catelyn will very likely become perceived as the “wet-blanket” female character as you say. However, this isn’t likely to happen until the second season as her role in the first book is more adventurous and bold. She remains sympathetic throughout the books because of her genuine love for her children, but she becomes a drag as her heart is crushed again and again. So much tragedy piled onto one character may make the audience wish for end to her suffering, but I don’t think that is the same as the audience disliking her.

  235. obsidian
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Feeb..(may I abbreviate ?) Right you are about sympathy..There are more than enough characters we can love to hate to go around , and what fun would it be without them ?

    I read your points and SirOccam‘s together, and do feel the aging up creates problems as well as solving others. Sansa’s naivete will have to be played up, I think, which might be easier to do if Jeyne were around…At the same time, the actress is very lovely, and I’m thinking viewers will want to like her, and hope she’ll eventually redeem herself.

    Whatever they do with Jaime ,I think that one act for love will be enough to establish his first season …asshole-hood ?

  236. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    Ditto on Gregor. There were very very few characters for whom I retained a deep hatred throughout my reading of the books. For me, Joffrey, Gregor and Melisandre were those characters (doesn’t mean they weren’t GOOD, INTERESTING characters, because they were, but they were all fundamentally nasty people). With Joffrey, you could argue that he is a product of his upbringing, at least (in contrast to Gregor), but I think the sheer relish he enjoys while engaging in malicious acts/torture indicates that there’s something more sinister going on deep inside of him.
    Melisandre I just…don’t like. Great character, but I completely hate her.
    Gregor is about the closest to an outright evil person that exists in the story IMO. Again, fascinating character, but an asshole(to understate it in the extreme) through and through.

  237. obsidian
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    I’m with you….Joffrey was always a sadistic little monster. ( kittens ?) Not exactly natural.. Overindulgence was the worst thing to give him.

    I’d add Ramsay to that list, I think..

    Because of the religious aspects,I think Melisandre maybe deserves to be in a separate category of Despicable, along with the new High Septon from the later books ? Hmmm..I’m pondering…

  238. obsidian
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Oops! Re: Joffrey , I guess what I mean is ,natural ( for him ) maybe ,but not exactly normal. ;)

  239. Inkasrain
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Feeblegenius: I don’t want to feel for Cersei, Joff, Sansa, Cat, etc when we all know they say and do despicable things.

    What do Sansa and Cat do that deserves lumping in with the (rightly named) despicable Cersei and Joffery?

  240. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 1, 2011 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    Oh, definitely.
    It’s been so long since I read A Feast For Crows that much of that novel is a blur. I’m re-reading A Clash of Kings now, to be followed by the other two. Somehow I always forget Ramsey though– I guess because I lump all of the “Arya-related villains” into one group of general nastiness. I mean, certainly, The Tickler and many of the others she runs into are just as awful as Gregor, only less politically relevant.

  241. ZD
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    a really great discussion. I’m full of love for Sansa!

  242. SirOccam
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Feeblegenius,

    I couldn’t disagree more with your thoughts about the bad guys. In fact it’s one of the biggest reasons why I love the series…most every character is very multi-dimensional. As I told my friend before he started reading them “be ready to change your opinion on every character at least once.”

    There are only a couple of (major) characters I never felt sympathy for…Tywin, Ser Gregor, Joffrey, etc. Everyone else who’s supposed to be a “baddie” (yes, including Cersei) is not just pure evil. They do do awful things, but then again, so do some of the good guys.

    Jaime’s a great example of this. He did…what he did at Winterfell…and yet I’m rooting for him. And I can’t really reconcile that very easily. I can see him trying to do noble things, and yet I can’t say he wouldn’t do the same awful thing again if he had the chance/reason. In fact all of my favorite characters inhabit this grey area where they’re ostensibly good or bad but sometimes do bad or good things, respectively. Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Littlefinger, etc.

    I’d also like to echo Inkasrain‘s question. I can think of why you might throw Sansa in there (although I would argue she had good intentions), but I can’t think of anything for Catelyn, aside from a coldness toward a certain other character that’s kind of sad, but certainly not malicious.

  243. Feeblegenius
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    SirOccam,

    I did generalize a bit too broadly with the names I listed, specifically with with Cat. Her conversation with Jon in Bran’s room is precisely why I included her, though. And the thoughts you have on Jaime (which mirror mine exactly) is precisely why I left him out of my hasty “lumping”.

  244. Kim
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    furrever,

    I’ve always felt badly for Sansa in that regard. On re-reading GoT I’ve paid special attention to Sansa and Arya’s chapters and in the early going they’re pretty evenly split in the self-centered race. Arya’s just as single-minded about getting her way as Sansa is, it’s just that what Arya wants is more interesting and admirable to a modern audience. Sansa’s the kind of girl who’d want to have a lovely tea party with her dollys and Arya’s the kind of girl who’d want to have a lovely war with the dollys that would inevitably end up ruining Sansa’s dress. And since Sansa’s absolutely the kind of girl who’d run and tattle, the whole thing would end in tears on both sides. More succinctly, Sansa and Arya spend the first part of GoT behaving like siblings do. And then the crap hits the fan and both girls just kind of do the best they can.

  245. Inkasrain
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Do people think of Jaime as a sympathetic/rootable character pre-amputation? Because for me, the character doesn’t really even start until that point. It’s like he doesn’t let anything touch him (not being called “Kingslayer”, not Riverrun, not the attempted murder of seven-year-olds) until he’s forced to face the fact that he is really just a man like any other. Two-handed Jaime is, for me, about as sympathetic as his father. Once “crippled”, Jaime’s perception of the world and of himself changes palpably. It’s only at that point that I’m willing to say that I root for and support him as a character.

    Kim,

    I completely agree. I also think it’s a good point that Sansa and Arya’s squabbles are more or less the typical battles fought between young sisters. They do strike me as highly charged, but given time, I think there’s a fair chance the girls would have grown out of their intense strife. I’m very close with my own sister, and I can remember a few fights from when we were young that left us almost bloody.

  246. Rhaenys
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    TYRION!! i’m definitely team Tyrion!! xD

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