Script Outline: A Clash of Kings
By Fire And Blood on in Speculation.

Ain’t this just like us, leaping ahead again, putting the cart before the slave, etc. But the way we see it, it’s never too early to plan for things you really want, and boy, do we want season 2! So here we present to you our A Clash of Kings chapter outline.

I have arranged the chapters in order and in a nice, neat 12-episode set… but as most people know, nothing is ever nice and neat in Westeros, and we here at Winter-is-coming.net proudly reflect that bold tradition by firmly stating there is no freaking way the second season of Game of Thrones will follow this all-too convenient script. Hell, I wouldn’t follow it. I just stuck the chapters in order so you all would know what came where.

(You can consider it your homework assignment to try and figure out what would go where, as well as what should stay and what should simply go, never to be seen on television.)

The chapters are described in their shortest, most basic form. If you have not read the book, you will probably not understand much of this outline, and thus should not be reading it. New characters will be CAPITALIZED; new settings will also be UNDERLINED. From these basic building blocks we will begin to get an idea of the challenges that await Dave and D.B.

All names and events from A Clash of Kings are © George R. R. Martin (and some are probably © HBO too by now).

Spoilers await the unwary. You need only open the door…

GAME OF THRONES SEASON TWO: A CLASH OF KINGS

Episode 1

01. PROLOGUE: CRESSEN POV; at DRAGONSTONE; intro of MAESTER PYLOS, SHIREEN, PATCHFACE, DAVOS SEAWORTH, LORD STANNIS BARATHEON, LADY SELYSE BARATHEON, MELISANDRE; Maester Cressen fails to poison Melisandre, and the long tradition of prologue POV deaths takes its second step.

02. ARYA 1: Arya heads north with Yoren, accompanied by Gendry, Hot Pie, and Lommy. Intro of JAQEN H’GAR, RORGE, BITER. Arya beats the crap out of Hot Pie.

03. SANSA 1: Sansa attends Joffrey’s name day tourney. Intro of SER ARYS OAKHEART, LADY TANDA STOKEWORTH, LOLLYS STOKEWORTH, SER DONTOS HOLLARD, SER BALON SWANN; Sansa’s quick thinking saves drunken, pantless Dontos. Tyrion arrives.

04. TYRION 1: Tyrion surprises Cersei and council with his return. Varys later surprises Tyrion by visiting Shae in the inn Tyrion had stashed her in.

05. BRAN 1: Winterfell; intro of BIG WALDER, LITTLE WALDER; fun with logs and sticks. Old Nan says the red comet means dragons are returning. Osha tells Bran not to fight the wolf dreams. Bran later dreams he is Summer.

06. ARYA 2: More refugees encountered by Yoren’s band on road; an encounter with gold cloaks reveals Gendry is sought by the crown.

07. JON 1: Jon and Sam prepare for the journey north. Mormont and Jon talk history; Jon again swears to keep his vows.

Episode 2

08. CATELYN 1: (new) intro of RIVERRUN; BLACKFISH and a sickly LORD HOSTER quarrel; intro of EDMURE. News of Gregor raiding the land; Catelyn decides to leave Riverrun to treat with Renly.

09. TYRION 2: Probable new intro of PODRICK PAYNE; intro of JACELYN BYWATER; Tyrion tricks Slynt and sends him to the Wall. Varys implies Meaghan and her baby were killed on Cersei’s order. Shae is restless in the manse, but Tyrion will not risk her life.

10. ARYA 3: Yoren and his rag-tag group find a woman and her young daughter (WEASEL) in a burned out holdfast. The woman dies in the night.

11. DAVOS 1: Melisandre burns statues of the Seven, gives Stannis “Lightbringer.” SALLADHOR SAAN tells Davos the sword is a fake. Davos and Stannis talk; Edric Storm mentioned.

12. THEON 1: Theon gets a blowjob aboard the MYRAHAM; CAPTAIN’S DAUGHTER is besotted. Ashore, intro of AERON DAMPHAIR, who escorts Theon to PYKE. Theon gives Robb’s offer to his father LORD BALON GREYJOY, who throws it in his face; the ironmen will instead sail against the north.

13. DAENERYS 1: Dany and her followers suffer on their trek east; Doreah dies. They find abandoned city of VAES TOLORRO. Dany sends her blood riders out. Time passes; Rakharo eventually returns with PYAT PREE, XARO XHOAN DAXOS, and QUAITHE, all come to see the dragons.

Episode 3

14. JON 2: Mormont & co. find village of WHITETREE abandoned. Intro of DOLOROUS EDD. Other nameless villages found and passed through.

15. ARYA 4: Yoren’s band also find abandoned villages; wind up in walled HARRENTOWN. SER AMORY LORCH comes in the night and storms the walls. Harrentown burns; most are killed including Yoren. Arya frees Jaqen, Rorge, Biter; flees Harrentown with Gendry, Hot Pie, Lommy, Weasel.

16. TYRION 3: Cersei freaks out about Stannis’s accusatory letter. Tyrion meets with blacksmiths about constructing giant chain. Intro of ALAYAYA; Varys takes Tyrion from Chataya’s to Shae’s manor via secret path.

17. BRAN 2: Bran, now lord of Winterfell, treats with guests including LORD MANDERLY and widowed LADY HORNWOOD; first mention of the bastard Ramsay Bolton. Most guests want Lady Hornwood’s hand in marriage.

18. TYRION 4: Tyrion steals potion from Pycelle; refuses Cersei’s demand that Tywin send an army; makes deal with Littlefinger that will grant with it Harrenhal and lordship of the Trident; meets with Varys re: placating House Martell.

19. SANSA 2: Sansa meets with Ser Dontos in godswood; he promises to see her safely home. Later, Sansa encounters the Hound, who escorts her to her room; he frightens her but she promises to sing him a song one day soon.

Episode 4

20. ARYA 5: Arya and the boys on the lam. Arya reveals her true identity to Gendry in private. Gendry captured by Gregor in PILLAGED VILLAGE. Arya attempts rescue with Hot Pie but is caught. Lommy killed by RAFF THE SWEETLING.

21. TYRION 5: Tyrion inspects wildfire with PYROMANCER HALLYNE; is promised 10,000 jars. SER CLEOS FREY sent to treat with Robb. Cersei confronts Tyrion re: agreement to send Myrcella to Dorne. Tyrion now knows who betrayed him to Cersei.

22. BRAN 3: Bran conducts harvest feast at Winterfell. Intro of JOJEN REED and MEERA REED. Bran later dreams a wolf dream in which Jojen and Meera approach Summer; when touched by Jojen, Bran wakes.

23. CATELYN 2: Catelyn treats with (King) Renly at BITTERBRIDGE. Intro of Renly’s new bride MARGAERY; intro of BRIENNE OF TARTH, who wins tourney and a place in Rainbow Guard. Renly refuses Robb’s treatise; Catelyn dubs Renly’s host the “Knights of Summer.” Messenger arrives, says Stannis besieging Storm’s End.

24. JON 3: Mormont & co. shelter at CRASTER’S KEEP; intro of CRASTER and pregnant GILLY, who begs Jon to take her with him; says Craster will give her newborn son to the Others. Jon refuses even though Sam promised her.

Episode 5

25. THEON 2: Theon rides (and flirts) with Esgred (ASHA GREYJOY); she reveals she is his sister once they are at Pyke. Asha later mocks him at a feast. Intro of VICTARION GREYJOY as Lord Balon reveals his plan of attack on the north; Theon is furious that his tasks are minimal.

26. TYRION 6: Tyrion finds Cersei in her chamber with Lancel; Tyrion imparts the good news that Renly and Stannis are fighting; Tyrion then poisons her. Tyrion, Timmett, Shagga break down Pycelle’s door; Pycelle thrown into dungeons.

27. ARYA 6: Arya imprisoned by Gregor with other villagers. Intro of THE TICKLER, CHISWYCK, POLLIVER (who takes Needle), DUNSEN, SHITMOUTH. Arya brought to HARRENHAL; takes the name “Weasel.” Intro of WEESE.

28. DAENERYS 2: Dany enters QARTH, takes up residence with Xaro. Intro of QUHURU, captain of Cinnamon Wind. Dany plots with Jorah on retaking Westeros.

29. BRAN 4: Jojen warns Bran he should leave Winterfell because of a dream he had. Luwin tells Bran magic is gone from the world.

Episode 6

30. TYRION 7: Lancel demands Tyrion release Pycelle; Tyrion turns tables on Lancel by making him confess he has had sex with Cersei.* Tyrion visits Shae. More sex ensues.

31. ARYA 7: Arya works the kitchens of Harrenhal; intro of PIA. Intro of VARGO HOAT and the Brave Companions. Ser Amory enters with captive Jaqen, Rorge, Biter. Jaqen grants Arya three names to whisper to him; she whispers “Chiswyck” and he is soon found dead.

32. CATELYN 3: Stannis and Renly meet; threats ensue, a peach is eaten; Stannis says Renly will be dead by the morrow if he does not yield; Renly refuses. Brienne and Catelyn bond; intro of SER ROBAR ROYCE (Robar the Red).

33. SANSA 3: Sansa escorted by Hound to visit Joffrey; Joff is furious at Robb’s victories and has her stripped naked and beaten. Tyrion halts the madness; he offers Sansa a place to stay in the Tower of the Hand but she refuses.

34. CATELYN 4: Catelyn visits Renly, who is being dressed for battle in his tent by Brienne. Renly is slain by a shadow; Brienne is blamed. Catelyn and Brienne flee; Ser Robar helps them escape.

35. JON 4: Mormont & co. arrive at FIST OF THE FIRST MEN. Jon wanders off; Ghost finds a cache of dragonglass weapons wrapped in a Night Watchman’s cloak.

Episode 7

36. BRAN 5: Luwin tells Bran of Robb’s latest victories. The Walders learn they have lost a relative and are cheered. Bran warns everyone that this is what Jojen’s dream told them, but few believe him. Intro of Reek (RAMSAY BOLTON); Jojen warns that Reek will kill Bran and Rickon.

37. TYRION 8: News of Renly’s death arrives; many houses have now gone over to Stannis. Littlefinger volunteers to try and woo Highgarden to their cause by delivering an offer of marriage between Joffrey and Margaery.

38. THEON 3: Theon has taken a northern FISHING VILLAGE. Theon returns to his ship SEA BITCH; Intro of DAGMAR CLEFTJAW, who Theon flatters into following his orders. Dagmar told to raid Torrhen Square to draw Ser Rodrik away from Winterfell.

39. ARYA 8: Lord Tywin rules at Harrenhal but is leaving; Ser Amory made castellan. Arya beaten by Weese. She whispers his name to Jaqen; Weese later killed by own dog.

INSERT: Jaime Lannister attempts escape from Riverrun scene! Please? Thank you, Fire And Blood Productions! We love you.

40. CATELYN 5: Brienne swears service to Catelyn at Riverrun; news of Jaime’s attempted escape. An ill Hoster babbles incoherently from his bed, thinking Catelyn is Lysa. Catelyn is brought Ned’s bones.

41. DAENERYS 3: The Pureblood of Qarth have refused Dany’s plea for aid, though her dragons are popular. Quaithe warns her she must leave Qarth soon. A lot of Q’s here. Dany finally decides to see the warlocks.

Episode 8

42. TYRION 9: Myrcella departs on ship bound for Dorne; first mention of the Kettleblacks. On return, royal party is assaulted by mob; AARON SANTIGAR, SER PRESTON GREENFIELD, High Septon killed; Lollys gang-raped. Hound rescues Sansa. Tyrion learns the mob blames him for Joff’s incompetence.

43. DAVOS 2: At STORM’S END, SER CORTNAY PENROSE refuses Stannis’s demand to hand over Edric Storm. Later in council Stannis says that Cortnay will be dead by morning. Davos rows Melisandre beneath Storm’s End, where she births a shadow.

44. JON 5: At Fist of the First Men, QHORIN HALFHAND intro. Dissention amongst Mormont’s men. First mention of Rattleshirt, the Weeper. Mormont grants Qhorin’s request that Jon travel with him into Frostfangs.

45. TYRION 10: Tyrion meets with Lancel (now his spy) at the sept. After, Tyrion tells Bronn to take 50 men and seize Tommen and hold him at Rosby. Intro of SYMON SILVER TONGUE. More Shae sex. Varys later visits dressed as beggar; suggests Shae attend Lollys.

46. CATELYN 6: Edmure marches from Riverrun to meet Tywin in the field. Catelyn learns Ser Cortnay is dead and Stannis has taken Storm’s End. She later speaks to Ser Cleos who has new peace terms from Tyrion; learns Tywin is in retreat, though this worries her.

47. BRAN 6: Bran dreaming inside Summer; sees that Winterfell is being attacked. Theon takes Winterfell, takes Bran prisoner; Bran yields castle to protect others. Mikken killed by STYGG. Hodor beaten. Osha goes over to Theon’s side.

Episode 9

48. ARYA 9: Vargo Hoat & Brave Companions return to Harrenhal with northern captives. Jaqen consents to help Arya free them only after she names him as the third name; “Weasel Soup” commences; Harrenhal retaken. LORD ROOSE BOLTON arrives and makes Arya (Nan) his cupbearer. Ser Amory fed to a bear.

49. DAENERYS 4: Dany enters HOUSE OF THE UNDYING. Psychedelic maze wandering ensues; the number 3 prevalent, appearing over and over. Visions include PRINCE RHAEGAR TARGARYEN and PRINCESS ELIA OF DORNE. Dany attacked by Undying; Drogon burns down House. Pyat Pree attacks her once she is outside and is subdued.

50. TYRION 11: Tyrion sends Shagga and clansmen off to harry Stannis. Ser Balon Swann and SER OSMUND KETTLEBLACK sworn into Kingsguard. Tyrion suggests to NEW HIGH SEPTON that people might rally against Stannis for burning the Seven.

51. THEON 4: Theon wakes in Winterfell with Kyra; discovers some of his men have been killed and Bran, Rickon, Jojen, Meera, Hodor, and Osha are missing. Sets off with party to find them, incl. Reek, who says they are hiding in nearby mill. Theon and Reek head toward mill.

52. JON 6: Qhorin, Jon, EBBEN, STONESNAKE, SQUIRE DALBRIDGE navigate SKIRLING PASS. They fall upon sleeping wildlings, incl. ORELL, who is killed, and YGRITTE, who Jon spares. She tells tale of Bael the Bard. When told he must kill her, Jon instead lets Ygritte go.

Episode 10

53. SANSA 4: In godswood, Dontos tells Sansa she will be leaving on a ship soon. Sansa goes to roof to look at fires outside the city; meets the Hound. They talk. Later she dreams of blood, and wakes having had her first flowering. Sansa panics, tries to burn the sheets, is caught and brought to Cersei, who chastens and mocks her.

54. JON 7: Continuing through Skirling Pass; Jon and Qhorin speak of Mance Rayder. Later Jon dreams he is inside Ghost, speaking to Bran, then spying on wildling camp. An eagle attacks Ghost and Jon wakes. Ghost soon found injured. Dalbridge left behind to guard pass against pursuit.

55. TYRION 12: Tyrion receives word of Bran & Rickon’s deaths, talks to Cersei. Cersei reveals she has Tyrion’s “whore,” but it is Alayaya she holds. Intro OSNEY & OSFRYD KETTLEBLACK. Tyrion threatens Cersei, returns to room to find Shae. No Shae sex– Tyrion too stressed!

56. CATELYN 7: Catelyn mourns Bran & Rickon at Riverrun. While castle celebrates victories, Catelyn goes to dungeon with Brienne; makes pact with Jaime.

57. THEON 5: Asha arrives at Winterfell; she is critical of Theon’s decisions, esp. the murder of Bran & Rickon. Reek volunteers to ride for help; Theon grants it. It’s revealed the boys who were killed were not actually Bran & Rickon.

Episode 11

58. SANSA 5: Sansa prays in the sept as Stannis’s attack on King’s Landing is imminent. Sansa goes to Maegor’s Holdfast; Cersei hosts a party for noblewomen, trying to keep morale up. Ser Ilyn is here, looming.

59. DAVOS 3: Davos leads naval assault on Blackwater Bay aboard his BLACK BETHA. It goes well until it goes very badly; the fleet is beset by wildfire and cannot escape, as Tyrion’s chain is drawn up. Davos thrown from his exploding ship.

60. TYRION 13: Tyrion and Joffrey watch from the walls. Not all the ships burned; some have come ashore. Joffrey has Antler Men catapulted at the enemy. Tyrion orders the Hound to lead a defense of the King’s Gate but is refused. The Hound flees. Tyrion has to lead it himself.

61. SANSA 6: Cersei’s morale ball goes poorly, and even Cersei is angry and drunk. Cersei orders Joffrey brought to safety. Cersei forces wine on Sansa, says Ilyn will be used to kill the nobles if Stannis wins.

62. TYRION 14: Tyrion leads assault on attackers in defense of King’s Gate. They push through and move to defend Mud Gate. Tyrion forces horse onto a tangle of WRECKED GALLEYS; he is betrayed by Ser Mandon and cut across the face. Podrick saves the day by pushing Mandon overboard.

63. SANSA 7: Lancel informs Cersei the battle is lost. Cersei strikes him and leaves. Sansa calms remaining nobles. She is warned to return to her chambers by Dontos; encounters the Hound who is drunk and demands his song. Hound rips off white cloak and leaves. Later Dontos tells her victory was miraculously won– by Renly.

Episode 12

64. DAENERYS 5: Dany prepares to flee Qarth; talks with Jorah about House of the Undying. Another assassination attempt with a manticore is stymied by Arstan Whitebeard (Ser Barristan) and STRONG BELWAS, sent by Illyrio to return Dany to Pentos. She agrees to go with them.

65. ARYA 10: Harrenhal is a more frightening place with Roose Bolton in charge; intro of SEPTON UTT and QYBURN. Arya does her duties, talks to young SQUIRE ELMAR, leeches Bolton. Arya finds map of Riverlands and hatches escape plan; Arya slits a guard’s throat and escapes with Gendry and Hot Pie.

66. SANSA 8: Joffrey bestows honors; Lord Tywin takes over as Hand, LORD MACE TYRELL given seat on council, GARLAN TYRELL into; Joff disavows betrothal to Sansa and betroths Margaery. Joff calls for execution of traitors. Sansa later given hair net by Dontos in godswood; he promises she will be leaving on Joff’s name day celebration.

67. THEON 6: Theon watches many of his men flee the approach of Ser Rodrik. He treats with Rodrik and threatens to hang BETH CASSEL. Theon later considers taking the black until Ramsay Bolton (Reek) finally returns with help. Rodrik is killed. Ramsay betrays Theon, stabs Luwin, burns Winterfell.

68. TYRION 15: Tyrion wakes, drugged and bandaged. Face wound terrible. Father has replaced him as Hand. Bronn is now a knight. Life sucking ass.

69. JON 8: Ebben and Stonesnake sent off; Qhorin tells Jon he must yield and join wildlings to act as spy. Intro RATTLESHIRT; he has Ebben’s head. Ygritte and others urge Jon be spared; Jon forced to fight and kill Qhorin. Rattleshirt forced to take Jon to Mance for judgment.

70. BRAN 7: Summer & Shaggydog roam burned Winterfell. Bran, Rickon, Osha, Hodor, Jojen, Meera exit crypts, find bodies everywhere. Luwin still alive; dies after telling Osha to separate Bran and Rickon. Bran (and Summer) goes with Hodor, Jojen, Meera, heading north. Rickon (with Shaggydog) leaves with Osha.

FaB Notes: A Clash of Kings (70 chapters) actually has less chapters than A Game of Thrones (73), but they are longer; AGoT has 807 pages, while ACoK weighs in at 969, so 12 episodes rather than 10 is probably appropriate.

ACoK gives us some meaty Arya chapters, some excellent Theon stuff, the great introduction of Brienne, and it introduces Stannis, who should be very interesting. Tyrion absolutely shines. And it ends with the (literally) explosive Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion’s chain, etc. Good stuff!

But here’s the bad news: some of the character arcs in this one aren’t nearly as gripping (or even as clear-cut) as most are from AGoT. Dave and D.B. are going to have to dig into their bag of tricks to keep the average viewer motivated to follow various storylines that don’t seem to be making much progress.

And it’s not so much a failing in the source material as it is the hard transition from page to screen; for example the early Jon chapters in ACoK are very readable, with good dialogue (and Dolorous Edd). But not much actually happens during the inexorable march north. The Ygritte story, the Qhorin Halfhand stuff… that doesn’t hit ‘til near the end.

Dany has her own issues, as she does almost nothing interesting until the House of the Undying, which is also at the end of her arc. If they’re really pushing Jon and Dany as two of the three main storylines, this one’s going to be a real challenge.

It could be argued ACoK is merely the progression of story, while A Storm of Swords is the actual payoff, and it’s hard to argue that, at least where Jon and Dany are concerned. Book 3 gets remembered for its fabulous weddings, sure, but both Jon and Dany have huge, excellent climaxes in ASoS as well. The problem is getting them there.

To put it in perspective, I have many friends who have read AGoT. Almost all went on to read ACoK, but only half of them finished it. By comparison, those who finished ACoK and went on to read ASoS (arguably the crown jewel of the entire series thus far) stuck with the series, went on to read A Feast for Crows, and are now still pining for A Dance with Dragons like the rest of us.

I have my own fixes for some of the issues; with Jon, for instance, I would introduce Ygritte earlier… perhaps have a wildling band stage a bold raid on Mormont’s caravan. Something (anything) to break up the monotony of the plodding march toward the Fist of the First Men.

Dany’s harder. I still don’t have a fix for her. There’s a real chance viewers could simply forget about her unless D&D invent a few new and interesting side-jaunts for her before she gets to Qarth. Or maybe something in Qarth. Or possibly even move some of her epic events from ASoS to season two.

Thoughts and ideas and idle speculation is welcome.


145 Comments

  1. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    *If I had to guess I would say this event does not occur doggystyle, much to the chagrin of a certain Westeros forum poster.

    More notes: Here’s a list of new locations and characters we may see in season 2:

    Cities: Dragonstone, Riverrun, Pyke, Vaes Tolorro, Harrenhal, Qarth, Storm’s End,

    Other: Whitetree, Harrentown, Gregor’s Pillaged Village, Bitterbridge, Craster’s Keep, Fist of the First Men, Northern Fishing Village, House of the Undying, Skirling Pass,

    Ships: Myraham, Sea Bitch, Black Betha, and the many Wrecked Galleys in Blackwater Bay

    Potential new characters (including those mentioned HERE) are: Maester Pylos, Shireen Baratheon, Patchface, Lord Stannis Baratheon, Davos Seaworth, Lady Selyse Baratheon, Melisandre, Jaqen H’gar, Rorge, Biter, Tanda Stokeworth, Lollys Stokeworth, Ser Arys Oakheart, Ser Balon Swann, Ser Dontos Hollard, Big Walder, Little Walder, the Blackfish, Lord Hoster Tully, Ser Edmure Tully, Podrick Payne, Jacelyn Bywater, Weasel, Salladhor Saan, Theon’s Blowjob Chick, Aeron Damphair, Lord Balon Greyjoy, Pyat Pree, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Quaithe, Dolorous Edd, Ser Amory Lorch, Alayaya, Lord Manderly, Lady Hornwood, Raff the Sweetling, Pyromancer Hallyne, Ser Cleos Frey, Jojen Reed, Meera Reed, Margaery Tyrell, Brienne of Tarth, Craster, Gilly, Asha Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, the Tickler, Chiswyck, Polliver, Dunsen, Shitmouth, Weese, Captain Quhuru, Vargo Hoat, Ser Robar Royce, Reek/Ramsay Bolton, Dagmar Cleftjaw, Aaron Santigar, Ser Preston Greenfield, Ser Cortnay Penrose, Qhorin Halfhand, Symon Silver Tongue, Stygg, Lord Roose Bolton, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, Princess Elia of Dorne, Ser Osmond Kettleblack, New High Septon, Ebben, Stonesnake, Squire Dalbridge, Orell, Ygritte, Osney Kettleblack, Osfryd Kettleblack, Strong Belwas, Septon Utt, Qyburn, Squire Elmar Frey, Lord Mace Tyrell, Garlan Tyrell, Beth Cassel, Rattleshirt.

    My best approximation, at any rate. This is 83 possible new characters tossed onto Game of Thrones, as opposed to the 87 we’ve been given so far in season one. You can subtract 21 people from the season one list who are confirmed dead by the end of season one (I did not include Syrio), which still brings the potential of season two characters to somewhere in the neighborhood of 150.

    I’m … not sure what to say about that!

    Woot?

    (Oy.)

  2. Ahimsa Kerp
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    I’ve always thought Clash of Kings, as a book, is the strongest of the series. Tyrion has his best scenes, Jon’s story really launches into the spectacular, but the book belongs to Arya. Her story will be the one that drives this season, I hope. Harrenhal is a television show unto itself, I think.

  3. Tar Kidho
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:02 am | Permalink

    Goodness me, someone got bored over the Holidays it would seem :-)

    For me personally it’s a bit early to already start thinking about the second season, but thanks nonetheless for your efforts. And 150 characters seems just…insane!

  4. Tar Kidho
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Ahimsa Kerp: I’ve always thought Clash of Kings, as a book, is the strongest of the series.Tyrion has his best scenes, Jon’s story really launches into the spectacular, but the book belongs to Arya.Her story will be the one that drives this season, I hope.Harrenhal is a television show unto itself, I think.    

    I agree on that! And the last book was in my unworthy opinion the worst… No doubt on my mind though that GRRM has been spending so much time on the next one to fully redeem himself!

  5. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    What with these issues of certain story arcs as presented by FaB, I can actually live with only another 10 episode order for Season 2 more easily. Condensing certain storylines and making everything even thighter is welcome, and if the pacing is better over 10 rathern than 12 episodes, then … Well, we’ll see :)

    It’s not too early to think of these issues, the producers certainly are, as we speak.

  6. Allanerik
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Maester Pylos (maybe a few lines, no more), Shireen Baratheon (1 scene ?), Patchface (1 scene ? a stange song), Lord Stannis Baratheon (a new main role), Davos Seaworth (a new main role), Lady Selyse Baratheon (some lines), Melisandre (some lines but very mysterious), Jaqen H’gar (mysterious, somes lines), Rorge (a little useless), Biter (a little useless), Tanda Stokeworth (a little useless), Lollys Stokeworth (a little useless), Ser Arys Oakheart (few little lines), Ser Balon Swann (a little useless), Ser Dontos Hollard (a co-starring for Sansa arc), Big Walder (somes lines), Little Walder (some lines), the Blackfish (we need to see him advises Robb), Lord Hoster Tully (maybe 2 scenes, guest-star!), Ser Edmure Tully (some lines), Podrick Payne (few lines or maybe not until blackwater battle), Jacelyn Bywater (somes lines), Weasel (useless), Salladhor Saan (a few lines), Theon’s Blowjob Chick (1 scene, extra), Aeron Damphair (i think useless), Lord Balon Greyjoy (1 scene, guest-star), Pyat Pree (extra), Xaro Xhoan Daxos (extra), Quaithe (extra), Dolorous Edd (extra), Ser Amory Lorch, Alayaya (extra), Lord Manderly (1 scene, extra), Lady Hornwood (1 scene, extra), Raff the Sweetling, Pyromancer Hallyne, Ser Cleos Frey (maybe a talk with Jaime ?), Jojen Reed (co-staring for Bran’s arc), Meera Reed (co-staring for Bran’s arc), Margaery Tyrell (i thing it’s important to show the other important family who will play the game of thrones), Brienne of Tarth, Craster, Gilly, Asha Greyjoy (co-staring for Theon’s arc, i would like to see her more with his brother), Victarion Greyjoy (useless), the Tickler (extra), Chiswyck (extra), Polliver (extra), Dunsen (extra), Shitmouth (extra), Weese, Captain Quhuru, Vargo Hoat, Ser Robar Royce (i would like to see Loras ‘fury after murder of his lover, and maybe burried his corpse), Reek/Ramsay Bolton (co-staring Theon’s arc), Dagmar Cleftjaw, Aaron Santigar (useless), Ser Preston Greenfield (extra), Ser Cortnay Penrose (extra), Qhorin Halfhand (guest-star), Symon Silver Tongue (useless ?), Stygg, Lord Roose Bolton, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen (nope, we don’t need to see his face ; use the wig of Viserys), Princess Elia of Dorne (we don’t need to see her face, only child in her arms), Ser Osmond Kettleblack, New High Septon (extra), Ebben, Stonesnake, Squire Dalbridge, Orell, Ygritte, Osney Kettleblack, Osfryd Kettleblack, Strong Belwas, Septon Utt (who?), Qyburn (maybe useless for season 2 ?), Squire Elmar Frey, Lord Mace Tyrell, Garlan Tyrell, Beth Cassel (so extra), Rattleshirt.

    In fact there are too much storylines. I think they are 7 storylines. So what ?
    In each episode i would like to see:
    - (Arc : War of influences into the Court of King) scenes in King’s landing: Tyrion/Sansa/Cersei/and co-starring: Lancel/Sandor/Joffrey/Varys/Petyr/Dontos. Clash between Tyrion and Cersei. People plotting around Sansa but she has a plan to flee. (Season 3)

    - (Arc : War between Stark-Tully and Lannister) scenes in Riverrun: Robb/Cat/Jaime/ and co-starring: Edmure/Blackfish/Cleos/Brienne. Victory of Robb but deliverance of Jaime, Wedding of Robb (there are no more issues for Stark for season 3)

    - (Arc : War between Baratheon Brothers) scenes in Peyredragon or Storm’s End ; so : Davos/Stannis/Melisandre or Renly/Loras group. Defait of Stannis, Victory of Lannister supported by the Tully, Davos imprisoned (hmmm what does Stannis in season 3 ?)

    - (Arc : Survival of a lonely wolf) scenes about Arya’s Journey with Gendry (no real new arc for season 3, it continues, but with others ennemies like brotherhood without banners and Sandor)

    - (Arc : survival and power of the last dragon) scenes about Dany’s Journey with Jorah / mabye new scenes. Conquest of East begins. (1 new arc for season 3)

    - (Arc : survival and war against the Others) scenes about Jon’s Journey in the north with Samwell. Separation, Jon and the Wildlings. Destiny of Samwell. (2 arcs for season 3 )

    - (Arc : war between Greyjoy and Stark) Theon betrays Bran. Ramsay betrays Theon. A new journey begins for Bran and the Reed (a new arc for season 3).

  7. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    I don’t think A Clash of Kings is slower, necessarily, but just that the focus shifts to different characters. For me, re-reading it at the moment (and about a hundred pages from the end), it really feels like much of the excitement and intrigue comes from Ayra, Tyrion and Sansa (and to some extent Catelyn, since she witnesses the Renly stuff). A lot of the Stannis/Davos material is pretty exciting (especially visually).
    Rather than adding material to the Jon and Dany parts, I would suggest keeping them tight, but expanding with material we only see offscreen in the books (e.g. we may see more of Renly before Catelyn actually visits him), likewise the Blackfish and Edmure and all their various goings on. Because the show won’t be limited by POV characters, it can add a bit of early excitement (though not too much, as it would ruin the climax) by adding material that involves non-POV characters, who most likely, the television audience will already expect since in season one (it appears from the footage and most speculation on here) characters like Jamie, Cersei, Littlefinger, Theon, etc will have more exploration than they did in the first book.

  8. reedgirl
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    I personally can’t wait to see shit hit Joffrey in the face. Would be the TV event of the year. I might even make a screensaver! (Cersei’s morale ball going south… love the way that was said.)

    Esgred/Theon – oh man, I hope they keep the physical molestation in. Makes it So. Much. Worse.

    The House of the Undying is going to be very telling about the future of the series… Heck, any scene with dragons will make me drool.

    I have always had a problem picturing/getting into the Blackwater battle scene – every time I read it I end up listlessly skimming through it. Maybe there’s just too many named-but-faceless ships (for me) to care? Anyhow, it seems like a lot of prose when the point is simply fire/crash/destruction. Davos’ outcome is important to me, but I’ve never been much for tactical warfare descriptions. It’s the same for me with land warfare – flanking/vanguard/reserve/cavalry etc are just concepts to me. I know what they mean, but I can’t seem to picture them in any detail. I read battle descriptions as a means to get to the next part of the story and to find out what happens to the POV characters.

    It’s gonna be hard to put the battles on TV methinks.

  9. K26dp
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    I think we’ll also see some things that are only mentioned or touched on briefly in the book. Namely:

    1. Littlefinger in Highgarden. This is a key development in the series, but is handled “off-screen” in the novel. I think they’ll need to be more explicit for the TV series.

    2. Ironborn raids in the north.

    3. Robb and Edmure’s victories over Tywin. Count Robb in with Jon and Dany as main characters that may need to have some parts written in to keep them fresh in the viewers’ minds.

  10. Adhikayev
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    When I saw a glimpse of a book cover on the website, my heart leaped as i thought Dances with Dragons was finished.

  11. jett
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    After multiple viewings of the trailer, reflecting, and visualizing the books as I know them, I cannot help but conclude that Gemma Jackson, in my opinion, may have been a bad hire.

    My first and last impression is that of an episode of Project Runway, as opposed to a dark, gritty, dirty fantasy. It appears to me, that this is her ‘time to shine’ in the fashion world and she is going far beyond the call of duty; to the point where much of the feel is borderline tragic.

    For instance, most art directors, who know medieval practicalities and function, would likely conclude that The Knight of Flowers helmet looks ridiculous and would never see battle. It is laughable.

    Other examples you ask? The Dothraki costumes and make-up are perfect for a NY fashion runway. WTF? Really? That’s what she came up with?

    Also…Roberts friggin crown??? Are you kidding me???

    Unless something drastically changes between now and the first episode, I can’t see myself buying into Jackson’s vision for Westeros. Until I am proven wrong, I think she was a bad hire and am not impressed AT ALL in the look and feel of the show. FAIL!!!

  12. Skyweir
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    I think Dany especially needs some more scenes. Perhaps allowing her to take a more active role in Qarth might be wise. Let it seems quite possible that the Pureblood will suport her, at least initially. That way, it might seem like her invasion will start before the end of the season, and making the stakes higher. Another option is to move the House of the Undying forward a bit, since the timing is not critical, and show some more history that way.

    Jon’s part can be spiced up a bit by amping up the horror of the setting, I think. It might also be possible that they will move the Fist of the First Men forward, since it really does happen at the same time as the end of ACoK. That way, they can leave every storyline with a bang.

  13. Half Myrish
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Reading this outline gets me looking forward to a lot of Dinklage as Tyrion scenes, especially him verbally sparring with Cersei. Fingers crossed that the writers will keep the dialogue witty and that the acting chemistry between them will be good.

    I think a lot of nonreader viewers are going to initially be like WTF? when Ned is beheaded , just like some readers were when it happened in the book. To help keep interest for Season Two, GOT going to need another male lead. I think the most important new roles for Season Two are going to be Davos and Stannis since a large part of the story centers around them in CoK. I think it’s going to be critical for Season Two to see which actors HBO casts in these roles.

  14. Brad Villane
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    While Thrones was ripe for expanding, Clash might benefit from some condensing, starting with the prologue, which is I think the longest chapter in any of the books thus far. We can meet Davos, Stannis, and Melisandre, but other than that there is an awful lot that can go.

    The Bran story before Theon arrives could do with a bit of shortening as well. I seem to remember a lot of sitting around and talking about the goings on of minor northern houses that would probably be super boring on screen. Meera and Jojen don’t show up till his third chapter.

    That being said, there are a couple of folk, as everyone else is mentioning, that need some more stuff to do.

    Jon definitely needs some more. Probably an encounter with the Others. There’s almost nothing in Kings about what seems to be the ultimate evil threat in series. Dave and DB will probably want to remind viewers of what’s ultimately at stake.

    Dany’s also got almost nothing to do, and the problem with stealing her stuff outta Storm, is that she doesn’t have a ton to do there either. She’s got five chapters in Clash and six in Swords. They’re going to have to get creative to keep her true to her character, but have her go through some sorta transformative experience. Having her learn about how to be a ruler in Qarth, may detract from what’s about to happen in Dance. This one is a puzzle.

    I’m not sure they’re going to have to expand to 12 episodes for Season two. There is arguably a lot more that happens in Book 1 that’s all being done in 10. Georgie also gets a little bit more long winded in the second book (not a complaint) and everything that’s going to be happening inside our characters heads is tougher to get on screen that it is on the page.

    I wouldn’t mind an 11 episode season, with the last episode running an hour and half, including the Battle of the Blackwater ( making for a truly epic finale). I still don’t know how they’ll pull that off on a TV budget.

    Jaime’s escape from Riverrun could also be moved to the last episode. He is thinking about it in Storm, but it actually happens towards the end of Clash. Would also give Catelyn something to do in the finale. End episode 10 with, “Brienne give me your sword.” so you could still have that awesome cliffhanger.

    Season 2 is definitely going to be a tougher nut to crack. For a lot of characters the story just ends, and there’s no “oh shit” moment like “King in the North” or “Music of Dragons”. And I would hate to get a Season 2 and then it get cancelled, cause we all know that we HAVE to get to Season 3!!!!

  15. The Rabbit
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    Everytime I would have an urge to nitpick, I would remind myself of transfering the Clash onto TV screen.
    I would not be in their shoes at all.

    A joke (a sort of)

    Another problem to add: Robb s story arc in Clash. In books he is almost invisible, but I am not sure, if the TV series could afford that.
    Same with Jaime , but all you can do in that case is to show his try to escape (with some cool dialogue between him and Blackfish).

  16. mummer
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    jett,

    For every person here who thinks (X) looks blatantly terrible, there’s someone else who thinks it looks fine, and vice versa… so I won’t bother getting into a “That looks bad / No it doesn’t” argument. I’ll just say two things:

    1. There’s not one single person who’s responsible for the entire look and feel of the show. Gemma Jackson almost certainly did not design individual costumes; they have a costume designer for that, Michele Clapton. Simon Brindle handles the armor. Jackson has more to do with sets and props.

    2. If you don’t like how Loras’s tourney armor looks, fine, but “it would never see battle” is an odd complaint since it’s not supposed to be used in battle. The book makes it pretty clear that knights in tournaments often wear extravagant armor that would never get within a mile of a battlefield.

  17. OzXaro
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    jett,

    Funny, because I’ve shown the trailer to quite a few people and they commented positively on the look of the show. In one case, specifically describing Loras’ helmet as “amazing”.

    I’m not saying you have no valid points, just that functionality and historical accuracy isn’t a huge concern for most of the audience.

  18. Maester Tcost
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    I agree with some of the earlier posters that we need more Dany, Jon, Robb, Renly, Jaime, and Littlefinger. K26dp suggested Littlefinger at Highgarden, dealing with the Tyrells, and I agree, but it must be done fairly carefully to avoid the depth of their collaboration and the beginning of the plot against Joff. Perhaps later on, after the Battle of the Blackwater, LF should make a brief appearance again at King’s Landing, ideally in a scene involving Sansa; he could tell her that he heard about her role during the siege, keeping the morale up at Cersei’s gathering after the Queen Mother departs, and letting her know that -someone- knows and appreciates what she did there.

    Dany1 should be split into three parts. Doreah should be reintroduced in the first portion so viewers will remember her better and be more upset at her death in the second part, and continue through the discovery of Vaes Tolorro, and Dany sending her riders out. The third part, probably the shortest, would have Dany at Vaes Tolorro, maybe including new stuff with Jorah and the handmaidens, concludiing with the return of the three riders and the trio from Quarth.

    A scene set before Catelyn’s arrival in the south should include Loras and Renly dealing with Renly’s family including at least Mace and Margery, preferably including Garlan and the Queen of Thorns as well, and Randal Tarly would be a good addition here. Maybe even Brienne, although it might be best to keep her introduction until the one where Catelyn first sees her in the tourney. The audience needs to be aware that the phrase “Highgarden and all its power” really does mean a lot.

    Another obvious addition is much more Robb. Early on, aftter Catelyn has left, show him at Riverrun with Edmure and the Blackfish, and at least one scene with the captive Kingslayer. That could lead into another with Lord Karstark to build up to Karstark’s treason and betrayal in the third season. Possibly something could be included here about Edmure’s hostility toward Tom of Sevens, and Tom could play The Rains of Castamere at some point.

    Then, toward the end, Robb in the west, winning more battles, and taking the Westerling’s castle, and Jean nursing him back to health, while Black Walder fumes and finally breaks with Robb after he marries Jean. At least one male Westerling should be worried about the wrath of the Lannisters, while these concerns don’t seem to trouble Jean’s mother, but no further hint should be given of the hand of Tywin being at work here.

    An extra scene with Tywin and Kevan, and perhaps Gregor, contending against Robb and/or Edmure, would be worthwhile. Maybe they could have another plot to rescue Jaime, very likely involving bribery.

    Jon is difficult. More with Sam and Master Aemon early on might help, as well as Pyp and Grenn. Another scene somewhere with Dolorous Edd, and one with the Old Bear or Chett. We have to have Donal Noye for ASoS, so introduce him here, since I don’t think he appears in season one. Maybe a scene involving the departure of Thorne?

    There will be so much Arya that I’m not worried about her, but the very volume of all these additions could well dilute the attention that Tyrion needs, let alone Sansa or Bran. There’s a delicate balance that has to be kept in mind in this.

  19. mummer
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    mummer,
    Sorry, I shouldn’t have even responded to that since it’s so far off topic. There are plenty of other threads for complaining about how things look in the preview. This one is about a script outline for A Clash of Kings.

    I pretty much agree with Steve. Having recently reread all the books, I don’t feel like ACOK is slower-moving or harder to adapt than AGOT; there may not be something dramatic happening to every character in every chapter, but in every episode-sized chunk there’s plenty of plot to chew on. There’s no straightforward through-line, but that’s kind of the point: many of the developments in ACOK, at least in Westeros, are about trying to impose some kind of order on things and having it fall apart in some way you didn’t expect but should have.

    About this: “Dany … does almost nothing interesting until the House of the Undying”… well, Dany doesn’t have a lot of chapters, period, but I think each one has plenty that’s interesting even if it’s not something she personally does. There’s the growing relationship with Jorah, there are a bunch of crazy new cities, and it’s becoming clear that because of her dragons she’s now one of the most important people in the world.

  20. Half Myrish
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    I think Jon’s story arc could definitely be moved up. Reading the outline for Episode 12, it feels like there is too much going on, anti-climatic after the Battle of the Blackwater in Episode 11. Have him meet Ygritte sooner in Season Two, have him kill the Halfhand and go over to the wildings just before the season finale, like Episode 10.

    Do we really need 12 episodes, or is it just going to drag out the story line? CoK may be longer than GOT, but much of it is dialogue and intrigue, rather than physical events that will translate well to screen, which is what other posters have discussed in relation to certain character arcs. Maybe 10 or 11 episodes would be better to condense the action and save the budget.

  21. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Brad Villane,

    I don’t think the prologue scenes will need to be shortened at all, since part of the length is simply do to Cressen’s own inner thoughts, which (sadly) we won’t likely see (unless he’s voicing them aloud to Davos perhaps, which, actually, could work very well). The prologue, IMO, is one of the most successful chapters in the book. I cared a lot about Cressen, despite that he was only there for a short time. It also made me immediately care about what happened to Stannis, to Renly and to his daughter (as well as laying the first stones toward my hatred of Melisandre, haha).

  22. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    Exactly. A lot of the extra length of A Clash of Kings, now that I’m re-reading it, turned out to mostly be description, which won’t take up screen time since we’ll be seeing the locations, banners, minor characters, etc, rather than reading about what they look like and who they are.

  23. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    personally i’ve never liked the entire Greyjoy storyline, even in the books. i often skip it on re-reading. i think it is just one storyline/plot arc too many frankly. the North could be overtaken by Bolton Jr/Bolton (post betrayal) just as easily with some adaptation. the whole battle for the King of the Iron Islands is one king too many and the whole Eron wed to the Dragon isn’t needed because of the whole

    Dornish supporting the Dragon thing

    . you don’t really need both the Iron Islands and the Dornish story lines. GRRM would have been best suited leaving them out of the book (might have been one less strand in that Meereenese knot). There are enough warring factions that adding the Greyjoys/Ironmen into the mix just seemed like overkill. It is really the same issue i have with many fantasy books. there is the “good guys” defeating great odds but then authors always want to make it utterly ludicrious. It isn’t enough to have the good guys win the battle of Helms Deep where they are outnumbered but not absurdly so but you have to have the good guys win out against 1000x their number near Morodor and of course the key to winning is two tiny Hobbits traipsing across hundreds of miles of enemy territory that happens to be as desolate as the surface of the moon. Or Wheel of Time where a small rag tag band of good guys manages to defeat a few of the superhuman bad guys but … shocker …. they come back to life after being killed and once again become unknown enemies. seriously, enough already. we get it. being a good guy is hard, the odds are long.

    ok, sorry. mini rant over. the point is they could entirely eliminate the Iron Men story line, use Bolton’s as the group that takes over the north instead (and sends Bran et all fleeing) maybe with the initial assistance but then betrayal of Theon (since he is already cast) which could thus ruin the Ironmen’s plan for conquest and end that unnecessary story line before it starts (and all of the Asha/Euron/Victaron/ect) characters it would normally spawn).

    i am sure they won’t but frankly the books have too much going on, too many storylines, too many characters to work on TV. and frankly with Mycella in Dorne that story line is far more interesting to me, i like the Dorne characters better (Sand Snakes, Oberyn, duaghter, Hotah, Darkstar, etc) and of course it more easily and believably ties into the Dany storyline.

  24. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    crap. sorry. i messed up that 2nd spoiler tag. oh well. if you are on this blog you should have read the books by now.

  25. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the recap!

    A friend of mine finally started Clash of Kings this week and immediately said “What’s with this guy and all the Prologues?!”

    That being said, I think starting Season 2 with Cressen and Stannis will work, only because Stannis will have been mentioned (hopefully) a lot in Season 1. It’ll be the pay off moment of “Oh this is the other brother, finally.”

    I think Arya 4 would make a great end to an episode. Yoren’s fight and Jaqen/Biter/Rorge release would be a cool note to end on.

  26. The Rabbit
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    My take on:
    Potential new characters: Maester Cressen (in), Maester Pylos (in) , Shireen Baratheon (depends on GRRMs future plans), Patchface (depends on GRRMs future plans), Lord Stannis Baratheon (in), Davos Seaworth (in), Lady Selyse Baratheon (in-probably), Melisandre (in), Jaqen H’gar(in), Rorge +Biter = Robiter, Tanda Stokeworth and Lollys Stokeworth (in probably), Ser Arys Oakheart (in – see: AFFC), Ser Balon Swann (extra), Ser Dontos Hollard (in), Big Walder +Little Walder =( One Walder or No Walder), the Blackfish( in), Lord Hoster Tully (in), Ser Edmure Tully (in), Podrick Payne (in-probably), Jacelyn Bywater (in), Weasel (out), Salladhor Saan (in -probably), Theon’s Blowjob Chick 8in), Aeron Damphair, Balon and Asha (in) Pyat Pree (in), Xaro Xhoan Daxos(in), Quaithe (in), Dolorous Edd (?), Ser Amory Lorch (out – Gregor -in), Alayaya (out – Ros -in), Lord Manderly(?), Lady Hornwood(?), Pyromancer Hallyne (in), Ser Cleos Frey (?), Jojen and Meera Reed (in), Margaery Tyrell (3rd season), Brienne of Tarth (in), Craster (in), Gilly (in), Victarion Greyjoy (3rd seson), the Tickler + Raff the Sweetling+ Chiswyck +Polliver +Dunsen+ Shitmouth = (2 of them stay – others: extras), Weese (in), Captain Quhuru (in), Vargo Hoat (in), Ser Robar Royce (out), Reek/Ramsay Bolton (in), Dagmar Cleftjaw (in – probably), Aaron Santigar( out), Ser Preston Greenfield (out), Ser Cortnay Penrose (in), Qhorin Halfhand (in), Symon Silver Tongue (in), Stygg (out), Lord Roose Bolton (in), Prince Rhaegar Targaryen ( depends on D&D take on H.o.U.), Princess Elia of Dorne (see: Rhaegar), Ser Osmond Kettleblack (in), New High Septon (?), Ebben +Stonesnake + Squire Dalbridge (probably in), Orell( in), Ygritte (in), Osney + Osfryd Kettleblack (out), Strong Belwas (in), Septon Utt (out), Qyburn (probbaly in), Squire Elmar Frey (probably out), Lord Mace Tyrell (3rd season), Garlan Tyrell (3rd season), Beth Cassel (probably in), Rattleshirt(in).

  27. Gecc1
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    My Predictions:
    - 10 episodes
    - Battle of Blackwater Bay gets moved to Season 3 (Ships approaching will be Tyrion’s Arc cliffhanger).
    - All Danny and Jon scenes get shown inside the 10 episodes of Season 2
    - Add one Jaime assassination plot by a Karkstark stooge (chance to show more Kingslayer plus more badassery inside his cell as he kills assassin while chained to wall).
    - Arya’s escape from Harrenhal moved to Season 3 (Roose calling Arya to his office possible Season 2 cliffhanger)
    - Won’t know Bran’s fate until Season 3 (Theon claiming he found them or that they are dead would be Bran’s Arc cliffhanger)
    - “Brienne, bring me the sword” cliffhanger for Catelyn’s Arc
    - Jon’s fight with the half hand cliffhanger for Jon’s Arc.

  28. Tysnow
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo

    Have to agree with Jacopo, there is one to many subplots concerning conflicting Houses and threats to Dany, either the Ironborn or Dorne must go and the Dorne family is far more enjoyable and their interests more intwined with K.L., the Lannisters and Tyrells than the Iron Isles. You can have Theon secretly working with the Boltons to overcome Winterfell then Ramsay turn against Theon once he gets the prize. For the Asha fans, you could introduce her as a messenger on her way to see Robb concerning Kingsmoot (Balon has died), and crosses with Theon and we get their great diatribe. Theon refuses to go back home (as he is firmly with Boltons) and Asha can reappear at Winterfell later with message that civil war has virtually destroyed the Isles and she came to see if he wanted to go with her and seek out a new life elsewhere. The wayward bride subplot could then be reinjected if the producers think it would not detract from the overall story.
    This way HBO can concentrate budget and talent on the more intriquing Dornish/Mycella storyline and the awesome characters (Oberyn, Viper, Sand Snakes, Hotah and Arienna) woven into it.
    As you can tell I believe the Dornish rule and the Iron Born blow with the exception of Theon and Asha.

  29. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow:
    Have to agree with Jacopo, there is one to many subplots concerning conflicting Houses and threats to Dany, either the Ironborn or Dorne must go and the Dorne family is far more enjoyable and their interests more intwined with K.L., the Lannisters and Tyrells than the Iron Isles. You can have Theon secretly working with the Boltons to overcome Winterfell then Ramsay turn against Theon once he gets the prize. For the Asha fans, you could introduce her as a messenger on her way to see Robb concerning Kingsmoot (Balon has died), and crosses with Theon and we get their great diatribe. Theon refuses to go back home (as he is firmly with Boltons) and Asha can reappear at Winterfell later with message that civil war has virtually destroyed the Isles and she came to see if he wanted to go with her and seek out a new life elsewhere. The wayward bride subplot could then be reinjected if the producers think it would not detract from the overall story.
    This way HBO can concentrate budget and talent on the more intriquing Dornish/Mycella storyline and the awesome characters (Oberyn, Viper, Sand Snakes, Hotah and Arienna) woven into it.
    As you can tell I believe the Dornish rule and the Iron Born blow with the exception of Theon and Asha.    

    i couldn’t have said it better myself.

    i know people might disagree but i think that even the book would be better without the Ironmen story arc. like you said i hope they do a Theon falls in with the Boltons and the story of the overthrow of Winterfell, Bran/Rickon “flee”, Theon betrayed, North in the hands of Bolton Jr/Roose Sr mini arc and leave out the whole King of the Iron Islands/North Balon, Kingsmoot, Euron/Asha, Kraken weds Dragon storyline. you might include the Ironmen as a peripheral story that now that the North is in disarray/Bolton hands that they are growing bolder and raiding even down to Highgarden (for season 3). tho i guess you could find another reason that the Arbor fleet is needed away from Dragonstone or maybe that isn’t even necessary as another plot device could be used to get Loras to lead an assualt.

    Dorne is a very good story line. it is well thought out and complex and builds on history and ties in many threads of KL, Lannisters, Dorne, Targs, Dany all together in a nice tapestry. The Ironmen storyline just seems like a poorly considered hobbled on extra that only has Theon as a common thread and he isn’t even a likeable character. if i were editing the books and/or making the Tv show the whole Theon/Ironmen thing would have been entirely left out from the start. There is enough going on in the World of Westeros without them.

  30. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,
    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    I felt as though the Dornish and Greyjoy storylines were almost equally out of place for me, although I liked Theon’s a bit better due to the fact that he was a pre-established character for whom I already felt a connection. I loved the Red Viper, but none of the other Dornish characters seemed all that rounded-out from AFfC alone.
    My feeling about all of these characters, however, is that GRRM likely has a lot of plans for them for future books (and especially, it seems, ADwD). They shouldn’t cut any of it, though with the release of ADwD I imagine a lot of the AFfC storyline will be rearranged.
    Furthermore, I think the Greyjoy bits are too important for the development of Theon’s character. Since they’re clearly establishing him as a main character in the first season (we know this because they’ve bothered to add extra Theon scenes to give him more to do), it would be ridiculous for them to take it out.
    Depending on GRRM’s plans for the characters, it IS possible that some of the Greyjoy and Martell roles might be amalgamated. Who knows though– when some of these characters may be developed into extremely interesting ones in later books, and in that case the producers would be kicking themselves in the balls.
    Most of these issues really do arise because of AFfC and the absence, in that book, of many fan favourites, along with the addition of a lot of new and relatively transitory POVs (one’s that only have a couple of chapters and so you can’t really become all that invested in them, or one’s who die in that book with relatively little development). Because of this, I think most speculation in terms of either of those storylines won’t be able to fully comprehend the importance or unimportance of particular characters until we have A Dance with Dragons.

  31. Slynt
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    I hope they have the funds to make Iron Islands look like they do in the novel. Great (sub)setting, and I can’t help but enjoy those Theon Greyjoy chapters. Hope they find a great, old, angry actor for Balon Greyjoy. Their first meeting in ten years is priceless.

  32. Brad Villane
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    There’s almost no way the show can support 150 characters. Season 1 is the biggest cast ever assembled for an HBO show. I doubt they are going to nearly double that for Season 2 no matter how successful it is. I think some characters will have to be combined.

    As much as I love the way the book handles Amory Lorch, it would be possible for the Mountain to carry out his actions with very little damage to the overall narrative.

    I think we’ll probably see a fair amount of stuff like that. Remember in Lord of the Rings Extended Cuts, many of Tom Bombadil’s lines were given to Treebeard as a nod to the character. I thought that worked pretty well.

    Just as long as they don’t do away with “Theon’s Blowjob Chick.” I really hope the show credits her as such. I also volunteer myself to help with the casting on that one.

  33. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    ALSO. The likability of any of these characters (Theon included) is EXTREMELY subjective. I like Theon quite a bit, for instance. Despite (or perhaps because of) his extremely massive character flaws, I find him a very realistic and synpathetic character. He’s not as terrible a person as a lot of people seem to think. Theon is exceptionally unsure of himself and his place in the world, doesn’t really have any close friends or family with the exception (maybe) of Robb, legitimately tries to do what his teenage-brain thinks is the right thing most of the time (although usually with ridiculously awful consequences– his taking and holding Winterfell in particular sticks out in this respect, since he seems to want to rule like Ned and be a good man, etc, etc, but his immaturity and lack of foresight bites him in the ass, ultimately). Until he actually gets told off by his father when he arrives on the Iron Islands as Robb’s envoy, he does actually want to do what Robb has instructed, but then finds himself in this impossible situation, wherein his father, uncles and sister are pulling him in one direction, and his childhood on the mainland in another. He is characterized mainly by his indecision and by the absence of any real authority/family figure in his life. He seems torn between two possible father figures (Balon and Ned), but he is rejected and mocked by the one and never truly accepted by the other. I think in that way, Theon represents best the conundrum of the ward/captive, who is isolated from his birth family, but never truly part of the “adopted” family either. Yes, he definitely does and thinks some exceptionally shitty things, but not any more than many of the other characters do, and especially when considering that he’s pretty damn young.

  34. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Brad Villane,

    To me, she’s actually someone who could be cut. I do think that part of the story is hilarious, but at the same time, if they’re establishing Theon as a womanizer in S1 then there’s pretty much no need for those scenes (especially when Asha kind of cements the fact during the Esgred chapter). They could easily save some money there if they wanted to.

  35. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    oh. i am not saying i think they will. i am pretty sure that horse has left the barn. they cast an up and comer as Theon and seem to have expanded his role a bit.

    what i was suggesting is that if i could sit down with GRRM during the planning stages of his books, or if i could have been his editor from the beginning, i would have told him to take out the Iromen all together. it is almost as if as he was canvasing medieval world history/cultures to pluck and put in Westeros he came across the Vikings and thought “oh, well i don’t have a Vikings group yet maybe i’ll throw them in off the coast of Westeros. yeah. that’d be cool.

    i mean even the Iron Islands themselves, on the map, aren’t n early large enough to support the kind of mini nation they are portrayed in the books. the whole thing, starting with Theon as a “hostage” all the way thru the entire story line is absolutely unnecessary especially within the context of Westeros historically. It makes sense to have some group in Westeros predisposed to wanting an alliance with Dany but that is the Dornish. from their marriage of Elia over Cersei, Elias murder, the Targ downfall, Danys flight and rebirth etc the whole history of Westeros is set up to nicely weave in the Dornish thread into the story seamlessly. not so much the Ironmen/Greyjoy story line. it is just dead weight (sorry to those who like some of the characters) strictly speaking and could just as easily be entirely left out. i mean how many warring nations and wannabe kings does one Island nation need?

    i know many will disagree and that people like Asha and etc etc. but i think if people were to look at the books objectively the one story that really isn’t needed, from the very beginning to end, is the Ironmen. take out the greyjoy rebellion (could have been anybody, Bolton Rebellion?) and thus take out Theon and the whole connection or mention of the Ironmen, find another group to usurp the North in Rob’s absence (Boltons) and cause Bran/Rickon to die/flee and the story is much more streamlined. nothing that GRRM can have planned for the future books can make the story line anything but a useless apendage since you don’t really need TWO different Westerosian suitors seeking out the favor of Dany and creating the Meereneese knot when one will do just fine (the Dornish).

    like i said. i am sure many will disagree. but i think the books would be better off without the Ironmen and i know the TV show would. even without them the TV show would be juggling probably too many balls, characters and plot arcs. with them in the TV show i just don’t see how the whole thing doesn’t eventually collapse under its own unintelligible to the normal audience ponderous weight.

  36. paulgude
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    Spoilers were warned about at the onset of the article, so this may be unnecessary blackness, but still:

    *If* you were to go that route, another option would be to cut out Theon’s trip from being seen on screen, but still have it occur. Have the audience be surprised right along with the folks at Winterfell when he shows up in Bran VI. I’m not a fan of cuts, but if they must then doing something that preserves the integrity of the original narrative will save them a *lot* of headaches in the future.

  37. Mormegil
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Permalink
  38. mummer
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?: the Iron Islands themselves, on the map, aren’t nearly large enough to support the kind of mini nation they are portrayed in the books

    Why do you say that? GRRM has said that Westeros is about as large as South America. Looks to me like that would make the I.I. about the size of Japan, maybe slightly smaller.

  39. mummer
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    I’m not sure I’d call Theon a sympathetic character at all, except maybe in his dealings with his father. To me he’s pretty clearly an awful person, even worse than the other ironmen in many ways. But he’s a lot more interesting to me than straight-up sociopaths like Joffrey or Gregor, because so many of his crimes and mistakes are driven by a miserable desire for approval– he really cares what people think about him, even people he’s victimized, it’s just that he feels sorrier for himself than for them.

  40. Inkasrain
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    I just reached the scene of Catelyn praying in the sept outside Storm’s End, where she sees the faces of her family and friends (and enemies) in the faces of the seven gods. It’s not an important scene plot-wise, but it struck me that it could make a beautiful ending montage for the episode of Renly and Stannis’s confrontation. Or they could move the scene, maybe to Riverrun, after Catelyn hears of the taking of Winterfell; that could be a particularly poignant moment leading up to the finale.

  41. Peeter Talvistu
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    FaB: this is insane! and i’m afraid also impossible :(

    i do agree that 10 episodes (with a possible longer finale) seems the way to go, including bringing jon’s more actiony stuff forward, adding some new jamie and robb and condensing winterfell more. but we will at least get some awesome guest stars!

  42. Tamsin Cleo German
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    I find myself torn on this. The books gain much of their depth from the complexity of the politics, and this was always their main appeal to me (when one compares them against other novels/series in the genre). But this complexity could also so very easily be the downfall of the TV show should the producers attempt to reproduce everything from the books.

    The adaptation of AcoK in season 2 (which I’m almost certain will be greenlighted, given the investment to this point) will be the key for the money people at HBO. It is essential that the producers keep the momentum they will surely have from season 1, and the thing most likely to blunt that momentum is the splintering of the narrative into too many strands for the casual TV viewer to care about.

    Cutting or combining storylines is the only way I can see for the producers to finesse this. While I hate to see anything lost, even the complexity of storylines that might not strictly be needed (e.g. *both* the Ironmen and Dorne lines), I seriously worry that trying to include everything will cost us all the continuation of the series as a whole, and I’d much rather see a streamlined GoT make it into season 4 and beyond, than see the inclusion of everything from books 1 and 2 leading to a baffled general audience and a premature cancellation.

  43. Sly
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    jett,

    Funny thing…Loras’s armor was the easiest costume piece for me to swallow, after flinching through some of the mish-mash armor sets. I saw it and went “Oh hey, actual 15th century jousting armor. Yay.”

    What Loras is wearing is a reasonable replica of a bascinet. If they even made it out of steel, it’s probably fully functional and the wearer could take a lance to the face with minimal injuries. The point of the rounded “snout”-like visor is that it’ll redirect the point of the lance to slide to either side of the wearer’s face, so the force goes by his head rather than right through it. To that end, the intertwining vine detail isn’t the most practical design, but over-all Loras’s armor is my favorite costume design.

  44. Grinbomb
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    I think we’re going to see more changes from the books in the second season than in the first and I thinks it’s an impossibility.
    The prologue I think they can keep, although as someone already pointed out it would be quite a bit shorter on screen than in the book given all the internal monologue. Its hard to say which characters they may get rid of or combine since we don’t know how the series will end, for example maybe they could get rid of some of the Greyjoys, but maybe not if all of them have a role to play latter in the series. Another issue is the action and cliff hangers in each episode. I don’t see how they couldn’t have the battle of the blackwater in the final episode. Maybe it starts at the end of the second last, but I think they’ll want to have the battle in the last episode and do all the aftermath stuff in season three if we are so lucky.

    D&D will want to make sure the viewers don’t forget about certain characters and really I think this will be their biggest challenge. With such a huge cast even for season one this may be a problem. I loved the first season of Boardwalk Empires on HBO, but one of the criticisms I heard from some people was they thought there was too many characters and they had trouble keeping tract. Now BE had less than 40 speaking role actors I believe. How are your average viewers going to follow let alone care about that many characters? I’m not at all concerned with the costume or set designs or plot changes at this point, what I’m most worried about is the flood of characters keeping the viewing audience from connecting with them, and thus and caring about the show and turning it off.
    Oh and the thing I’m second worried about would be the CGI, not that the first season would need as much as future seasons but I hope that the dragons end up looking cool.

  45. Grinbomb
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Tamsin Cleo German: I find myself torn on this. The books gain much of their depth from the complexity of the politics, and this was always their main appeal to me (when one compares them against other novels/series in the genre). But this complexity could also so very easily be the downfall of the TV show should the producers attempt to reproduce everything from the books.The adaptation of AcoK in season 2 (which I’m almost certain will be greenlighted, given the investment to this point) will be the key for the money people at HBO. It is essential that the producers keep the momentum they will surely have from season 1, and the thing most likely to blunt that momentum is the splintering of the narrative into too many strands for the casual TV viewer to care about.
    Cutting or combining storylines is the only way I can see for the producers to finesse this. While I hate to see anything lost, even the complexity of storylines that might not strictly be needed (e.g.*both* the Ironmen and Dorne lines), I seriously worry that trying to include everything will cost us all the continuation of the series as a whole, and I’d much rather see a streamlined GoT make it into season 4 and beyond, than see the inclusion of everything from books 1 and 2 leading to a baffled general audience and a premature cancellation.    

    I agree about them changing and combining some of the story lines, and as much as I hate to say it since I love them so much I can see the Dornish being reduced in their role in the series or removed altogether. Not that they have anything to do with season two but I think that decisions like that are really going to have to be made starting in season two.

  46. Brad Villane
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    I was kidding about “blowjob chick.”

    Though this is HBO and they do not skimp on sex. It looks like they are including every sex scene that was even referenced in the book in season 1, as well as adding some new ones. You can bet Theon’s gonna get blown in Season 2.

    I just really hope they don’t go softcore porn with it. “Watchmen” anyone?

  47. Zack
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    To go along with the current thread of discussion…so far I think the Dornish storyline is more interesting than that of the ironborn, but I would prefer not to have any whole storylines cut. Primarily because we are yet to understand the full scope of Martin’s plans with these stories. I’d suspect that with the release of ADWD some folks might reevaluate current feelings of such-and-such plot being ‘unnecessary.’

    The other thing I worry about is that Martin may (if only subconsciously) begin to shape his narrative with the TV series in mind, and we might not get the full impact of these storylines in the books just so that book and television series can be better enmeshed. But really, I don’t think I would mind vastly different interpretations of the world in the novels versus the adaptation. Could be a way to keep things surprising to the viewers/readers. Combining different storylines in the television approach could lead to some fun “Aha!” moments for us readers.

  48. DH87
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Zack: Combining different storylines in the television approach could lead to some fun “Aha!” moments for us readers.  

    I assume you mean for these “fun ‘Aha!’ moments” to flow from GRRM’s pen. I think we can assume that any such moments, no matter how well-intentioned, crafted by anyone but GRRM would lead to cries of horror from book readers. :)

  49. FilliamHMuffman
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    For season 2 and beyond, the production will need to pare down the number of subplots and focus the action more on the series’ central characters. For the adaptation of ACoK, Jaime and Robb in particular should get more screen time. For Jaime, add new scenes of him interacting with Robb and the Tullys. In addition to the new Jaime-Robb scenes, also give Robb more scenes with the Blackfish (the Blackfish’s role must be expanded in season 2 to introduce the character to the TV audience), and add some Robb-Jeyne scenes too.

    On the other hand, I would sacrifice much of the Greyjoy subplot to keep the series more focused. Early in the season, show Robb send Theon on a diplomatic mission to the Iron Islands. Later in the season, show Theon return to the North with a ship of Ironborn. Gut all the stuff in the middle. The complicated power struggles within the Greyjoy family are one subplot too many.

  50. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    I would disagree with anyone who says remove the Iron Islands subplots from the story. Theon may very well be one of the saving graces for the second season, in my opinion. The Esgred/Asha scene is priceless. His confrontation with his father just drips with menace, and I felt a real connection to Theon, even after he took Winterfell. All those mistakes, each one slowly adding up to his downfall… If you replace the Ironmen with the Boltons, you completely miss out on Theon’s real motivations, which include finally getting some sort of acknowledgment from a father figure (be it Ned or Balon). You’re certainly not going to have the sense he might want it from a Bolton. He just wants someone to tell him he’s worth something.

    Iron Islands are too meaty. Leave ‘em.

    As to who to cut from season two? Combining Rorge and Biter into Robiter (thanks, Rabbit!) is doable. Victarion can she shoved to season 3. Same with Margaery. Pylos can be an extra. Shireen, Patchface, Selyse–also extras, or shoved to season 3. Balon Swann = extra. Make only one Little Walder (who is not at all little). Bywater can be an extra. Yes, switch Ros for Alayaya (if Ros doesn’t stay at Winterfell). Yes, Gregor can replace Lorch (though I still want someone to be fed to a bear). Pyromancer Hallyne can be an extra. “Chisraff the Sweetmouth & his good friend Pollisen” = a big yes. Quhuru can be an extra. Santigar and Greenfield are extras who get splattered wonderfully. Penrose stays (very few lines). Stygg is just an extra thug. Rhaegar and Elia? I’m hoping, else why even do the House of the Undying? Osmond Kettleblack is in, probably, but his brothers are extras. New High Septon will be an extra, and not very fat. Ebben+Stonesnake+Squire Dalbridge = Ebstone Snakebridge, which is awesome. Orel can be an extra. Septon Utt will be a kiddie-diddling extra. Qyburn can be moved to season 3. Mace Tyrell & Garlan can be moved to season 3. Beth Cassel can be an extra.

  51. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    So who to keep sacrosanct with as little changes as possible? Do I have a list, you ask? Why of course I do! Why would you ask that? You are a fool. A fool! Here’s my top-25 list of important stand-alone characters needed to be cast for A Clash of Kings:

    1.Stannis Baratheon

    2.Melisandre

    3.Roose Bolton

    4.Brienne of Tarth

    5.Jojen Reed

    6.Balon Greyjoy

    7. Ramsay (Reek) Bolton

    8.Blackfish

    9.Ygritte

    10.Qhorin Halfhand

    11.Davos Seaworth

    12.Jaqen H’Gar

    13.Ser Dontos

    14.Gilly

    15.Podrick Payne

    16.Asha Greyjoy

    17.Vargo Hoat

    18.Hoster Tully

    19.Meera Reed

    20. Craster

    21. Aeron Damphair

    22. Rattleshirt

    23. Dolorous Edd

    24. Weese … because he has to get eaten by his dog. I need to see that.

    25. I have a 3-way tie between Pyat Pree, Xaro, and Quaithe, because they are the three wise men, and who else will come to see the baby Jesus?

  52. paulgude
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    I hasten to add that my suggestion was simply an idea to maintain cohesion *if* they decided to cut the Iron Islands. I agree that the Esgred/Asha scene is a standout.

  53. Brad Villane
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    26. “Blowjob Chick”

    T’would be awesome if Dany named one of her dragons Jesus after the three wise men came to see them.

    In fact she could name one Jesus, one God, and one the Holy Spirit. There you have it, the holy trinity.

  54. FilliamHMuffman
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Fire and Blood,

    I’m aware that removing the Greyjoy subplot would make Theon a more one-dimensional villain in the series, but a TV show, even an HBO TV show, cannot be as intricate as the books. The first season appears to be incredibly faithful to the source material, but as each subsequent book gets more bloated than the one before, compromises are going to have to be made. Making a few minor characters unnamed extras will not suffice. Cutting entire subplots is going to be necessary. I think for mainstream TV audiences, including the Iron Island and Dorne subplots on top of the central arcs of the Stark/Lannister/Baratheon civil war, the growing threat beyond the Wall, and the Targaryen restoration would be too much.

  55. paulgude
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    FilliamHMuffman,

    I think The Wire held up this kind of juggling act pretty well, but they had the benefit of a unified location so that characters and plotlines could bleed into one another. Still, we got to see multiple groups working against each other in relative isolation.

    It doesn’t mean ACoK isn’t going to get trimmed, of course. I honestly didn’t think the Blackfish would get cut from season one, and they were able to do that.

    I’m just happy that they have GRRM’s ear so they’ll get a heads-up if they’re about to cut something that turns out to be important later.

  56. Zack
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    I assume you mean for these “fun ‘Aha!’ moments” to flow from GRRM’s pen. I think we can assume that any such moments, no matter how well-intentioned, crafted by anyone but GRRM would lead to cries of horror from book readers.     

    Exactly so. With GRRM fully on board with the television project he’ll be able to steer the scriptwriters away from any disastrous cuts. I don’t *really* expect this to become reality to such an extreme degree though. I’d imagine they’d expand the number of episodes to fit in the extra plots, while trimming and combining *characters* from the various plotlines to streamline everything. No need for a hacksaw when a scalpel will suffice.

    FWIW, I’d be thrilled were the Esgred scene to happen word-for-word and as crotch-grabby as we expect. Absolutely the most hilarious exchange thusfar.

  57. Ahimsa Kerp
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Cutting this arc does sort of make sense, but I’d be sad. Losing Theon’s scenes would definitely hurt the depth and scope of the narrative, but even worse, visually, I think the Greyjoy scenes will be some of the best. Theon’s meetings with Asha and his father and amazing. Seeing a crazy-eyed, wild-haired Euron emerge from the misty sea would be an amazing sight.

  58. Tyler L. Metcalfe
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Gecc1: My Predictions:
    - 10 episodes
    - Battle of Blackwater Bay gets moved to Season 3 (Ships approaching will be Tyrion’s Arc cliffhanger).
    - All Danny and Jon scenes get shown inside the 10 episodes of Season 2
    - Add one Jaime assassination plot by a Karkstark stooge (chance to show more Kingslayer plus more badassery inside his cell as he kills assassin while chained to wall).
    - Arya’s escape from Harrenhal moved to Season 3 (Roose calling Arya to his office possible Season 2 cliffhanger)
    - Won’t know Bran’s fate until Season 3 (Theon claiming he found them or that they are dead would be Bran’s Arc cliffhanger)
    - “Brienne, bring me the sword” cliffhanger for Catelyn’s Arc
    - Jon’s fight with the half hand cliffhanger for Jon’s Arc.    

    There is so much going on in the next book I don’t really feel that anything should be left for the next season; just saying. Other than that, I shall resume my lurking.

  59. Gecc1
    Posted January 2, 2011 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Tyler L. Metcalfe,

    The third book will likely be split into two seasons.
    Plenty of room to push some of ACoK stuff into the third season.

  60. paulgude
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    I don’t know if we’ll need spoiler tags, but have we run into a deleted or merged major character yet in season one? The Blackfish has been postponed, but I seem to remember speculation that Ser Vardis was going to take over someone’s role? Am I misremembering that?

  61. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Ser Vardis will take on the plot role of the Blackfish when it comes to welcoming Cat to the Vale and accompanying her to the Eyrie.

  62. Peter Jørgensen
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Actually it is thought that Ser Vardis Egen is taking over the blackfish´s role in S1. He is the reason the blackfish can be pushed to S2. The Blackfish is the knight of the gate and protects the Gates of the Moon, which lead into the Vale. In the book he escorts Cathelyn from the Gates of the Moon to the Eyrie. That Role is supposedly taken by Ser Vardis Egen in the series. It is also speculated that some of the advice the Blackfish gives Cat in S1 wil be given by Ser Rodrik instead. Whether Ser Vardis Egen will get the role of Knight of the Gate in the series is unknown. The title propably don´t exist as there is no reason to go in that much detail in the series. I think it will work pretty well, and it saved the wages of an (hopefully) first grade actor to play the Blackfish in S1. Cats yourney will give us some time to emphatise wit Ser Varids before Bronn kills him, and his new position as knight of the gate, will still make it netural for him to be the one figthing Bronn, as he is the principal protector of the Vale. He could still retain his old role as Captain of Lysas Guard, and still escort Cat the the Eyrie. It really wouldn´t matter.

    I think they have cut down on the number of Bloodriders and Danys Khas. Many of the Kingsgurad also seemt to be nameless extras. We have seen footage of unknown ( to us) extras?/actors? standing in as kingsguards. Perhaps they are smaller NI actors that are unannounced but will take up the different roles of the various KG´s as the are given names and have roles to play in later books. Perhaps only one or two KG (apart from jaime and Barristan) will have lines and take the roles of all of them. We know Meryn Trant has been cast, and they would need a Mandon Moore in CoK on the bridge of boats.

    Who has been cut. I have no idea. For S1 it seems we will not get a Roose. Shame.

  63. Peter Jørgensen
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    I made a huge post basically saying what HmR said in two lines. But the internet seems to have swallowed it. Other characters that may be omitted/written together for S1 could be members of the Kingsguard, Drogos Bloodriders, Danys Khas and Tyrion mountain clansmen. Nothing has been announced of this, but no actors has been announced for the roles either.

  64. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Peter Jørgensen,

    It was filtered as spam for some reason, fixed now!

  65. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    mummer,

    I definitely agree that he’s pretty messed up and not always very nice, but I do feel that that is true for many of the other characters as well. I guess what I’m saying is that, much of what is bad about Theon seems to have come about due to his circumstances while growing up rather than his nature. I feel sorry for him because even though he does a lot of things that turn out to be horrible, most of the time he doesn’t attempt something with the intention of it being horrible. He’s an exceptionally naive and blind character, who tends not to see the potential negative consequences of his actions. I feel as though Theon is a very immature person, who may have been much more capable and mature had he ever had an actual family or home (e.g. if he’d been treated more warmly by the Starks).

  66. Maxwell James
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    Interesting thread – makes it clear what a challenge ACOK will be to translate to the screen.

    My suggestion is that the writers should seriously consider eliminating Craster (and by extension, Gilly), who I find to be both boring and nasty, a kind of gutter Tom Bombadil. While this would create some plot challenges, I think they could be creatively overcome & it could lead to some further streamlining. For instance: instead of having Mormont die at Craster’s Keep, have him survive long enough to play Donal Noye’s role in repelling the wildlings. As with others above, I would also endorse moving the Jon and Dany storylines along somewhat faster, and giving Robb a LOT more screentime in S2.

  67. Tysnow
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    I will play the antagonist again and give my viewpoint on why one or more subplots have to be removed for the sake of continuity. We the fans would love for all the storylines to stay intact for the series but to me it would be not be good business from HBO’s perspective, as they must create a product that appeals to the ordinary HBO viewership (29 million U.S.) and not just appeal to the hard core fanbase. The casual viewer who invests their time will attach themselves to certain characters and for those characters too skip an episode or two and then appear for only 3-5 minutes would not be productive. For example, here we are in Season 3 and in an episode we jump from K.L. to Riverun to Nightwatch to Winterfell to Meereen then to Iron Isles then to Jaime/Brienne, then to Arya, then back to K.L., that is way to many storyarcs in one episode and thus they would have to condense the story elements in an episode thus pushing scenes involving the others to the next episode. Therefore an episode would concentrate on K.L., Riverrun (Cat), Arya then the next episode Nightwatch (Jon), Meereen (Dany), and Jaime/Brienne, and the Iron Born thrown in the mix then back to the beginning. So we would skip storyarcs for an episode, so tell me how many viewers would HBO lose if they have to wait every other episode for their favorites to appear. The casual viewer doesn’t like a lot of jumping around and that is why BE lost more than half its audience. In conclusion I would rather a storyarc or two be thrown away and the series have a full 7-8 season run than to stay religiously to GRRM books and then be cancelled after 3 seasons. I am sure GRRM can work with D&D on how to re-edit the series and streamline it for HBO so GoT can achieve maximum success.

  68. Herr Fick
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Considering Mr Martin’s way of plotting his novels and intertwining his character’s fates, I find it unlikely that even one of the (until A Feast for Crows “peripheral”) story arcs (ie The Iron Islands and Dorne) could be left out without making Game of Thrones into another “inspired by” but de facto standalone series.
    For example, Myrcella’s fate, Quentyn’s quest and Prince Doran’s plot of revenge are, as far as we know, essential to A Dance with Dragons and the subsequent events. The Ironborn’s war against the North, their raids in the Reach, Euron Greyjoy’s plans with Daenerys’ dragons: all of that could possibly be left out, but it would scramble the whole story after A Storm of Swords. And because Mr Martin does not, usually, introduce characters or locations in vain*, the necessary adjustments to the overall plot would likely become bigger and bigger with each season after the second. In the end, Game of Thrones would probably no longer even resemble the novel’s story.
    *: That many readers seem to consider these two story arcs to be somewhat negligible is, in my opinion, due to their disliking of the respective characters (which is a matter of tase alone) or their unwillingness to follow another set of events and people, however important (and predetermined by Mr Martin) their role in this story may be.

  69. Ed
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    (This post is meant in fun, please don’t take it personally, NO insult intended) Hahahah… I’ve never seen a forum where people tried to impress others with their knowledge so much in my life. (Well, except maybe the WWII wargaming forum… “No, the Tiger tank had a turrent rotation factor of 72 degrees!”)

    Sly: jett,
    “Oh hey, actual 15th century jousting armor. Yay.”What Loras is wearing is a reasonable replica of a bascinet. If they even made it out of steel, it’s probably fully functional and the wearer could take a lance to the face with minimal injuries. The point of the rounded “snout”-like visor is that it’ll redirect the point of the lance to slide to either side of the wearer’s face, so the force goes by his head rather than right through it. To that end, the intertwining vine detail isn’t the most practical design, but over-all Loras’s armor is my favorite costume design.    

  70. Mormegil
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    I do wonder if the Iron born will be reduced down to just Balon, Asha and Theon with Asha becoming Queen unopposed on Balons death

    It all depends of course on how the Ironborn interact with Dany in ADWD.

  71. roel
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    I didn’t finish the wheel of time series yet!
    thanks for the spoilers.

  72. Ramon Carlos
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    This drive to simplify the plot arcs for HBO has me scared that GRRM might ‘simplify’ ADWD just to ease the conversion to film. I pray he does not.

    At some point, production costs should decrease sufficiently to allow a completely faithful unabridged adaptation of the ASoIaF series. Yeah it might sound more like a day-time soap at this point. And I’m not advocating one episode per chapter either. But if the episode count per season was, say, 20, then we could fit in everything.

  73. Inkasrain
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    I’m pretty sure I’m solidly alone on this (and for good reason) but I’d be more than happy to see them cut the Ironborn stuff completely. They probably shouldn’t and probably won’t, but from a purely selfish perspective, I’d still like it to happen. I’ve never found anything likable or sympathetic about the Greyjoys, and for me, they bloat the story without carrying their weight. (Same goes for the Dornishmen, who were much more interesting to me when they were just represented by the (undeniably awesome) Red Viper.)

    Obviously, this is strictly my opinion. Like I said, it’s probably not a good idea, and would probably make most fans rightfully pissed. But I’m rereading “Clash of Kings” now, and going over the Ironborn stuff again, I have to say… I still just don’t get it.

  74. Chrysee
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    I love ACOK but not a lot happens. Arya wanders and stuff happens but it can definitely be condensed. Jon and Dany don’t do much to the end. But there’s no need to invent stuff for them to do. ASOS is way too full of stuff for a 10 or 12 episode season. There is no reason they cannot get into ASOS stuff in the latter part of Season 2. The series does not have to stick to one book per season. I’d much prefer they get into ASOS content since alot of ACOK can be condensed pretty easily.

  75. dizzy_34
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Inkasrain,

    I can understand where you’re coming from but I like the fact that they (Greyjoys) are kind of the forgotten monkey wrench. I actually enjoyed the Ironborn stuff in Feast toward the end of the book. I think their payoff could be quite good.

  76. Brad Villane
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    I really doubt the ironborn stuff will be cut completely as it is emblematic of what makes the series as a whole so great. Book 1 sees Theon as a well intentioned youth fighting for the “good guys.” Book 2 is all about his fall from grace. How his relationship with an unloving father leads down the path of evil. It’s stuff like that that make asoiaf so freaking great. Theon is corrupted, while Jaime and the Hound find redemption. It’s way to great a character arc to throw out.

    What we’re much more likely to see is a condensing of locations on the Iron Isles to keep the budget down, the same way Darry castle became the crossroads inn. We probably won’t get to see Old Wyk in the granduer we imagined, but hopefully all the character moments will remain intact.

  77. spacechampion
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    I don’t understand what people are freaking out about. I think people are overestimating how long the Iron Born scenes of season 2 will take. I see no problem with casting that many people, since most will be guest stars, featured extras or no-line extras. For some of them more money will go into their costume than their fee for being a background extra.

    Balon is a short speaking part in one episode, so guest star role.
    Damphair is a long term commitment, but guest star role. Season two — two episodes?
    Asha, main cast but maybe four episodes?
    Victarion, featured extra for season two, back as a guest star in season 4 or 5. Possible to cut him or expand role to show capture of Moat Cailin.
    Dagmar Cleftjaw — 2 episodes? guest star.
    All other Iron Born, extras or featured extras.

    No way are they cutting this storyline.

    Dorne would be far, far easier to cut. We see nothing going on there until AFFC, all of which just tells the arc of why Doran is apparently doing nothing. The only thing we need to hear of this is some occasional news by raven, and then in season 5 or 6 we meet Quentyn Martell for the first time and then get the backstory for what Doran was planning and what happened to the Sand Snakes and Arianne. Doran, Arianne, Darkstar, the Sand Snakes — cut, cut, cut. For the third season Oberyn, Elaria and some Dornish background extras would be in perhaps three episodes.

  78. obsidian
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    I’m sure there must be some timeline experts here…andI know GRRM has said ( somewhere, sometime ) that the series won’t necessarily follow a one book = one season formula , but skew more to the timeline of the story. I think this was particularly in regard to books 3 & 4 – assuming we get that far -but surely they they may start shifting things a bit now, in order to accommodate that later.

    I was one who was not particularly fond of the Dornish stuff ( and I know that had a lot to do with my resentment at not getting to read about Arya, Jon , etc.. ) but I realize they must be important to the story..so I sort of can’t bring myself to say a whole segment should be cut. I know I’ll have to take my cues from what they do cut ( and of course from ADWD…this spring ? :))…I’m just really glad GRRM is involved to inform and guide the whole process.

  79. paulgude
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Herr Fick,

    I agree with this. Again, the writers are going to cut things to make their lives easier. With a work like ASoIaF, removing huge sections from the *reality* of the story can cause more headaches then they solve. There’s a difference between not showing a lot of the action on the Iron Islands and simply removing their role from the story entirely. I believe GRRM’s problem with his “knot” is similar to this. If you move one thing, you suddenly affect everything else. If they eventually decide to scrap keeping continuity with the series, then it’s no problem, but it seems as though they’re invested with keeping in step at the moment.

    I also agree with the folks who are saying that they’ll be doing their best to keep the main players in action, especially if their actors become popular with the TV audience. Given what they’ve done already, I can conceive of them doing two main things:

    1) Shifting around what is shown in the series vs. what is shown in the books. We’ve already had several additional scenes outside of the POV structure, and I can only imagine we’ll bet more. A prime example:

    We’re told of the escape attempt Tyrion sets up for Jaime. I expect (hope) that this will be shown instead. It gives Jaime more screen time, and is a great bit of action.

    Another:

    Robb takes a wound storming the Crag, and is tended by Jeyne Westerling, whom he eventually marries. We find out about it in ASoS, but this could be prime fodder for S2 if Richard Madden becomes popular.

    Conversely, we may see some scenes from the book cut and appear as reports instead. I can’t come up with anything that I personally see as indispensable, but gave a suggestion further up the thread about how something like this might be accomplished.

    2) Keep the main action the same, but alter the players. Hear Me Roar and Peter Jørgensen did a good job explaining how Ser Vardis may take on new responsibilities. I expect this fuzzy character action will continue as the story goes on. In historical fiction a character might be invented to stand in for several different individuals, and I can definitely see this type of consolidation happening. We have an interesting situation where The Blackfish has not been written out entirely, but is being held off for a season. This may continue to happen where another character acts as a placeholder for one to show up later, or we may eventually see a character absorb another entirely.

    Also, we already know they’re willing to do this with Will being the deserter.

    Of course, they may decide to make things “easier” for themselves and have a huge split between the books and the series at some point:

    Drogo lives, or Ned lives, Viserys never gets crowned, the dragons don’t hatch, Dany’s assassin succeeds, etc.

    Note: This will not happen.

  80. The Rabbit
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I must I admit I am not so surprised about the people s reaction to Ironborn chapters.
    I am not a big kraken fan either, but I do not want that writers cut that storyarc, because it would not be the same story for me.
    I am sure, at least, the major Ironborn players would be in.

  81. spacechampion
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    I think we’ll get an actual escape by Jaime from Riverrun, followed by recapture by Edmure some episodes later, perhaps even at a dramatic point when Edmure rides to meet Tywin’s army at the river, and Jaime tries to cross to it.

  82. Julian
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    I’m not really a regular here, so I hope no one dismisses my suggestion, but isn’t the Ironmen storyline (Theon’s) important to the fates of those at Winterfell. If I am correct doesn’t Theon seige Winterfell, forcing Bran, Osha, Rickon, Meera and Jojen to flee, removing some of Theon’s storyline might affect Bran’s storyline altogether. Also, does ASOS have to be two seasons? Can’t HBO just greenlight 12 or 13 episodes?? Just curious

  83. paulgude
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Julian,

    One suggestion is to have everything that happens on the Iron Islands still happen, just off-screen. However, there are a few great scenes that would get cut if that happens.

    As far as ordering more episodes goes, I think that’s more of a business thing than a consideration for storytelling. That’s not to say it may not happen, just that it won’t happen because we can’t see how they’ll show everything we want in ten. On that note, however, our armchair decisions about what “must” be cut to fit a 10-episode format are really just speculation. While something being cut seem pretty unavoidable, what and how will be decided by folks whose profession it is to make these kinds of choices.

  84. paulgude
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    “While something being cut seem pretty unavoidable…”

    Nothing like a few grammatical errors to remind me there’s no reason to try and be so highfalutin.

  85. dizzy_34
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Happens to the best of us. :)

  86. The Rabbit
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    I bring here a try of Global Timeline made by Errant Bard over at Westeros forums.
    I must admit I am more confused after have it read, than before.

    On the other hand I think I am still struggling with fact of beeing incapable to figure out the Tom Bombadil of Asoiaf.
    I am more convinced that GOT is a different kind of animal and that Tom Bombadil could not be some subplot or whole story arc in this case, but rather a whole lotta detailes GRRM s bombarded us with.
    Even before the first reports we had from the production I was sure that was entierly impossible to transfer all of GRRMs characters on screen, but I was also aware of the fact that every GRRM “major” subplot had connection with the end of the whole ASOIAF series.
    Even the annoying Ironborn and a little less-annoying Dornishmen.

  87. DH87
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: While something being cut seem pretty unavoidable, what and how will be decided by folks whose profession it is to make these kinds of choices.  

    Agreed: I can’t imagine HBO deciding to add episodes based strictly on content requirements. I suspect we are locked into 10 eps per season for the duration of the series. The whole cost-compensation structure is most probably based upon it. More likely will be the moving up/postponing of plot points from one book to another. The exception is an abbreviated final season for series such as Entourage, which has been dying for years but is being given a 6-ep boot out the door in 2011.

  88. FilliamHMuffman
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    It should be pointed out that Asha Greyjoy can still be introduced in season 2 if the Iron Islands chapters are removed from the series. A few Asha-Theon scenes in the North would be sufficient to establish Theon’s motives while narrowing the focus to the central story arcs.

  89. Adam Whitehead
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    The ironborn and the Dornish are pretty essential to the series. In fact, their rise to prominence reflects the game-like nature of politics in the story: the Greyjoys and the Martells hold back their hands and are able to enter the contest in greater force later on once the Lannisters and Starks have exhausted themselves (and once the Tyrells are in the game as well). TV writers also seem to really enjoy bringing in new characters every season (and fans seem to agree with them, as long as it’s not at the expense of established favourites), so from that angle it shouldn’t be a problem.

    As for why they’re so important:

    Dorne gives Daenerys a ready-made support base in Westeros and sets up her return. The ironborn look like they’re going to be playing a role in Dany’s story but, more importantly, they help bring down the North and maybe, depending on how ADWD pans out, become either a key support or opposition of Stannis.

  90. Steel_Wind
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    On the whole “Dornish are important to the story” discussion:

    No, Adam, they aren’t important. I admit that it is possible that they may become important, but to date, of the published material in books 1-4, they are the most obvious place to trim and throw away. They are superfluous additions to the narrative and can easily be expunged in service to the integirty of the greater whole.

    While it is not possible to cut out Theon’s capture of Winterfell, the rest of the power struggle within the Iron Isles can also easily be cut without affecting the main storyline — again, so far. It may be that this may become important in ADwD — and frankly, it may not be. Some things are going to have to be cut — you have to prioritize and maintain the essence of the story while making a watchable series.

    So yes, these are both prime aspects of the story to cut out, based on what we know so far.

    If D&D have to take a saw to the patient and amputate a limb — these are the most withered appendages and are both prime candidates. Victarion, Euron, Asha, et al — even Damphair? We can lose all of this (or have it happen off screen) without undercutting the essence of the primary tale.

  91. Grinbomb
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead: The ironborn and the Dornish are pretty essential to the series. In fact, their rise to prominence reflects the game-like nature of politics in the story: the Greyjoys and the Martells hold back their hands and are able to enter the contest in greater force later on once the Lannisters and Starks have exhausted themselves (and once the Tyrells are in the game as well). TV writers also seem to really enjoy bringing in new characters every season (and fans seem to agree with them, as long as it’s not at the expense of established favourites), so from that angle it shouldn’t be a problem.As for why they’re so important:Dorne gives Daenerys a ready-made support base in Westeros and sets up her return. The ironborn look like they’re going to be playing a role in Dany’s story but, more importantly, they help bring down the North and maybe, depending on how ADWD pans out, become either a key support or opposition of Stannis.    

    In the end it may just come down to numbers and buzz (which really go hand in hand). D&D decided to do may just be based on the rating of the first few episodes
    True Blood only started with about 1.5 million per episode and ended its first season with a little less than 2.5 million and now it’s HBO’s flagship show with over 5 million per episode.

    Boardwalk Empire did drop from the first episodes 4.3 mil, but viewer ship did quickly stabilize to about 3 mil per episode. If GOT only starts with 1 million the first episode but has 3 million by the last we’re set and D&D can probably see it as a sign to keep some of the complicated plot lines in the TV series. However If it starts with 4 million and ends with 2 mil or less we’ll be in trouble.

    As the book series is written, yes the Iron Born and Dornish are essential, but they could change things around so that they aren’t needed or are less prominent in the TV adaption. Like most fans I’d love to have the TV series be as faithful as possible to the books, but at what cost? If TV viewers can’t follow all the storylines and characters and say ‘the hell with it’ and stop watching, we’re in trouble. Like I’ve said before Boardwalk Empire had this criticism and they had about half the number of characters in their first season compared to GOT. The Stark family alone and all their guards, bannerman and followers etc, will be very hard to follow for people who haven’t read the book.

    As much as I love them both, the Iron Born and Dorish are not essential to the story to date. You could have the Boltons attack Winterfell without the Iron born ever stepping foot in the north, and the Dorish have been just as unnecessary so far.

  92. Inkasrain
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Completely agree. And I kind of think it would be make for very cool TV if we see little of Theon between the time that Robb sends him off the Islands as an envoy and the time he arrives at Winterfell. That way, Jojen’s prophesy of “the sea sweeping over the walls of Winterfell” could maintain it’s mystery until it comes to fruition.

  93. Ed
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Dagmar CleftJaw = Nick Nolte

  94. Tysnow
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    Politely disagree with the importance of the Iron Born with the exception of Victarion heading to Dany, but that can be replaced by the Golden Company (Let them have the Horn). The Iron Born did not bring the North down, Bolton did, all they did was occupy a few towns and the Neck and that was for a short time apparently. Theon captured Winterfell with a handful of men (which can easily be replaced by Boltons). The only cool thing to me concerning the whole Iron Isles subplot was the interaction between Asha and Theon. Like I mentioned previously you can have Robb send Theon to escort a messenger coming from Balon, and Asha be that person, thus we get the awesome interaction. Asha can depart the next episode and we don’t see her again until she arrives at Winterfell.
    As for the Dornish, they are more essential, we have the Red Viper, Mycella subplots along with the apparent Dany support and future Oldtown subplot plus the Elia and Dayne connections. The Dornish allowing Dany a base for invasion is moot, remember the prophetic phrase “To go West you must go East, to go South you must go North”, to me this means she must travel to Westeros by way of the Poison Sea and land in the North (I believe somewhere near Flint, as it is shown on the Westeros Map but so far the place has not been mentioned in the books). The Flint Hills would be perfect for invasion as there are no Mountains to traverse or Woods to cut through, and a clear shot to the Kingsroad.
    I am sure the producers and writers are well aware of the fact there are too many characters and subplots in the later books and cuts and arcs will have to be made or condensed.

  95. Allanerik
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    The scenes about Theon is coming to Pyk could be only 3 scenes for 1 episode (maybe the second), 15 minutes no more ?
    Actors: Theon, Asha (introduction), Balon (guest-star for one only scene). No Aerion (he is not important at all i think), no Victarion, they are useless for now.

    First scene Theon in his boat (sex with the girl because it’s HBO) (set: we see an island). Second, an another girl waits for him to go to the castel of his father (set: a road, two on horse back) . He continues to seduce, but she’s not a simple girl, she is his sister. A sister more ironman than him.
    Thirst scene (set: in the throne room of pyke), confrontation with his father. And the plan of Balon.
    I think is simple and not expensive. We don’t need to see the harbour and people. Ironmen are warriors, we will see them after at Winterfell.

    And so what ? maybe someone tell to Bran that ironmen attack the cost (Asha’s attack) in episode 3. Maybe at the end of this episode, or the beginning of the next one, we will see Theon infiltrates Winterfell and take power at the end.
    Next episode the flee/false dead children. No more episode about Bran during a moment. And during episode seven it could be the battle for Winterfell.

    These and Bran stuff (dreams, Osha, Reed, Rickon’s wildness) make a more tension on Winterfell about what ? maybe 4 episodes… after that we could have some of ASOS stuff about Bran and his journey in the next episodes. Because we know that this journey is actually boring.

    They couldn’t cut Theon family (because it’s important for the character and his betrayal). Asha/Theon could be useful in ADWD and so on.

    And of course no Dornish people, useless for now.

  96. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    I agree with Adam that the Dornish are actually more important than the Ironborn. If you have the Red Viper, you can’t have his ultimate fate be answered by a big pile of nothing. (And who is going to say they don’t want the Red Viper? Everyone wants his scene with Gregor.) What makes the story so cool is the fact that we’re finally seeing machinations that have actually taken longer than a fortnight to plot finally begin to come to fruition. Most of the plots we see from the major houses are simply due to their advantageous nature. “Look, the plum is suddenly ripe, let’s pluck it!”

    Doran Martell is a different sort of beast entirely.

    If I had my druthers, I’d keep everything. But if you’re telling me–with no choice–that I had to dump one of the great house stories, it would have to be the Ironborn. Though I wouldn’t be happy about it.

    Love Theon’s arc.

  97. Ryan24
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Here is an interesting thought about season 2.

    If they do what we all expect and give it the greenlight, filming/cast information will likely come out before season one ends. It will be rather clear that Bean, and for more devoted fans Addy and Mamoa are nowhere to be found.

  98. Jarmel
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: I agree with Adam that the Dornish are actually more important than the Ironborn. If you have the Red Viper, you can’t have his ultimate fate be answered by a big pile of nothing. (And who is going to say they don’t want the Red Viper? Everyone wants his scene with Gregor.) What makes the story so cool is the fact that we’re finally seeing machinations that have actually taken longer than a fortnight to plot finally begin to come to fruition. Most of the plots we see from the major houses are simply due to their advantageous nature. “Look, the plum is suddenly ripe, let’s pluck it!”Doran Martell is a different sort of beast entirely.
    If I had my druthers, I’d keep everything. But if you’re telling me–with no choice–that I had to dump one of the great house stories, it would have to be the Ironborn. Though I wouldn’t be happy about it.Love Theon’s arc.    

    Well we haven’t seen the payoff from either side. Both houses haven’t really been in the fray of things like the Starks and Lannisters. Honestly the whole Ironborn thing seems really quite unnecessary at this point. They are more a nuisance than anything else. The Martells are really the black horse of the series in that if Doran’s plans actually work out then he could cause some serious damage but if not then he is also a bit superfluous. Really it seems like Martin is biting off alot with all the different houses but we’ll see in the end.

    So to sum it all up, you could cut both houses out of the mix as the story currently stands and not much would be lost in the big picture(Viper and Gregor aside). I can definitely see the Martells having a larger role in the end but really it’s conjecture.

  99. paulgude
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Ryan24,

    Add to this the fact that all someone has to do is look up “A Game of Thrones” on Wikipedia to see a full plot outline with these spoilers included.

    Game of Thrones fans who haven’t read the book and want to make it all the way through the first season with surprises intact are going to have to be insanely guarded about avoiding almost all promotion for the show. Even then, annoying friends and trolls will have any easy time ruining things for them.

    Unless, of course, D&D + GRRM do some sort of horrible trick on people that read the book and EVERYONE gets surprised. Again, I’m pretty confident that won’t happen.

  100. mummer
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 3:24 am | Permalink

    Jarmel: you could cut both houses out of the mix as the story currently stands and not much would be lost in the big picture

    It’s just crazy to try to guess about such things right now. We’ve only read a little over half of the series! “As the story currently stands” is not a very meaningful measure. It’s like reading just the first book and deciding that Lord Beric is obviously a pointless minor character who’ll never have any further role in the story.

  101. Amir Mishali
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    I’m confused. Why are we even talking about the Dornish subplot and Myrcella in Dorn? This doesn’t happen until season 4. So does the power struggle in the Iron isles. I agree that both subplots are not necessary, and even if they become important in ADWD, the more important thing is that they are (to me) not very interesting, and the small number of POVs devoted to these subplots makes it hard for the reader/viewer to relate to these plots, and fragments the story.

    This is not the case with Theon in the Iron Isles. The story is interesting and provides us with some of the best scenes in ACOK. There’s a strong protagonist (well, sort of), that even if not likable, he’s interesting enough to carry the story, not to mention a capable actor in this role.

    I think that they’ll keep the Iron Isles in season 2, but will combine books 4 and 5 in the fourth season, while dropping some subplots, including the two discussed.

  102. Caedes
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 4:21 am | Permalink

    Not to cut this amazing debate (this board is great thanks to you, guys!) but a little bit OT: the great Pete Postlewaithe died yesterday.
    Most remembered for his Giuseppe Conlon, for me he ever will be my mental image of Maester Qyburn…

  103. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    Postlethwaite was good. Few could do the aching heart under a tough guy facade better than he.

    He and Sean Bean were actually very close.

    Steven Spielberg once called Postlethwaite “the best actor in the world.”

    Postlethwaite responded, much later, “I’m sure what Spielberg actually said was, ‘The thing about Pete is that he thinks he’s the best actor in the world.’”

    And I would have actually cast him as Rattleshirt.

  104. Blood
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    The Ironborn’s invasion of the North and taking of the Neck is essential to why the Red Wedding happens. Robb goes from “the King in the North” to “the King who Lost the North”, prompting Roose Bolton and Walder Frey to conclude that he has lost the war. It’s not the only thing of course and details like that can be glossed over or cut in the TV show but the Ironborn are not irrelevant at all in the books.

  105. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    I’m not sure that the amount of characters really will be that confusing for viewers. As long as everything is visually different and a good balance is maintained, it shouldn’t be a problem. No, many viewers will likely not remember the names of very minor characters, but ones that they are shown repeatedly they will at least understand the role of, etc.
    The first time I read the books there were a ton of minor characters who I would forget occasionally, but it definitely didn’t stop me from enjoying the book, and didn’t even detract from it at all. I think the sheer number of characters helped add to its sense of realism.
    For example, someone watching may not know who the Greatjon is, etc, but they will probably be able to point him out to their friends and say, “Oh, that’s one of Robb’s men and he’s loud and really wants a battle.” If they then go back and re-watch the series again and again, then they will pick up on more information about the world and characters, essentially the same way we did.
    I think the major characters and arcs are distinct enough not to be that confusing. It does also help that many of them are introduced through established structures such as the Small Council (e.g. Here is the small council [insert wide shot of room]: Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle and Ned). Characters like these are often easily recognizable through their carefully described appearances and their out-there mannerisms (Varys, for instance).
    I don’t think the Ironborn will be confusing from this perspective, especially since they are individually introduced to Theon one-by-one. I do think, to save money, they could cut some of those characters temporarily (e.g. Victarion) in the same way they did the Blackfish, but I actually doubt the number of characters will be an issue.
    There’s also the fact that this is an entirely different genre to BE, and to some extent I think it’s a little bit expected that fantasy have a lot of different characters.

  106. rorschach-
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    Blood,

    This, I’m really amazed how people say that Iron Isles or Dornish aren’t important. I think that they are gotten more important to “game” faster than example Starks got in book 1. Starks didn’t have about anything to do with game, until Ned realizes something is wrong and kicks the bucket. There are already many plotlines in Dorne and Ironborne; also you really don’t need to be psychic to see how important these families are coming to be in the future. There is no way in earth that these could be cut from the series if HBO/DD are going to play along with the books. The only question is that how much they are going to show from these events.

    I think that these talks about cutting are because people are bit dissapointed to plotlines from FFC and the rising nervousness of “incoming of second season” and “do we got too many things going for average viewer” aka fears of “too much = no season 3.”

    Shame that people are somewhat correct. I too do think that FFC wasn’t the brightest book in the series. Though I liked the almost biblical style of Damphair and mystical background of Crow’s eye, but things like too much attention to Oakheart instead of Hotah (and then killing him) and not diving into very interesting Euron character any deeper than just a scratch were just bad moves among a few other things. Truly shame but I do still believe that DWD will be the best book in the series, at least until Spring comes. And because of that talking about what to cut and what not at this moment are bit silly.

    Also shame about Postlewaith. It was always a bright moment when he came in a little siderole in any movie he was in.

  107. Herr Fick
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    mummer:
    It’s just crazy to try to guess about such things right now. We’ve only read a little over half of the series! “As the story currently stands” is not a very meaningful measure. It’s like reading just the first book and deciding that Lord Beric is obviously a pointless minor character who’ll never have any further role in the story.    

    I couldn’t agree more.
    If the series should continue throughout all the novels (a very big if, but let’s pretend) while leaving out whole story arcs like the Ironborn or Dorne and given Mr Martin’s way of writing, the plot will have become a “based upon” invention of the writers/producers by the End of season 4 or 5 (ie the second half of the merger of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons). By the end of seasons 5 or 6 (ie The Winds of Winter) it will likely be unrecognisable.

  108. Winter Is Coming
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Full disclosure: I am a big fan of the Ironborn. We Do Not Sow are the best house words, the kraken the best sigil, and Euron is a total badass.

    That being said, I think that people are getting way ahead of themselves and going overboard with these cuts. At this point, there is no way David & Dan will cut entire storylines like this. It would cause more trouble than it is worth.

    For the Greyjoys’ introduction to the story, I think Allanerik did a good job summing up what exactly they will film. It will be three scenes and two additional characters. I agree that Aeron and Victarion will get the Blackfish treatment. You can have Asha or Balon mention them, but save their introduction until season 4 or 5, when they have something to do. If the average TV viewer gets lost and confused because of three scenes set in Theon’s homeland and the introduction of his sister and father, than there is no hope for them.

    Down the road, David & Dan can do some more trimming of the Greyjoy or Martell storylines if need be. I’m sure they will streamline them just as they have the other stories (glossing over certain events, cutting minor characters, combining characters, etc.) But hacking off huge portions of the story would seem to do more harm than good.

  109. Shinyteapot
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Sad about Postlethwaite. Great actor, and only in his 60s. Terrible shame.

    As regards series 2, should it happen (hope so!) I imagine Victarion and/or Aeron will get the Blackfish treatment- much as I’d like to see them, if this means better actors later on I’d be ok with it. I do think both the Ironborn and Dorne storylines will end up being important- and certainly Theon’s character development needs him to go home and encounter at least his father and sister. Dorne will no doubt get a brief mention in dialogue but nothing more at this stage.

    Kingsguard who aren’t already cast will remain extras until they are needed for story purposes- no one will notice if one of the background whitecloaks changes appearance when the character becomes important.

    I think Dany’s story could begin a little earlier in her journey, and much more will be made of Doreah’s death. It seems she’ll have a fair few scenes that weren’t described in detail in the books, so may well be a more prominent character in the TV version.

    We definitely need more Robb- perhaps the story of his romance with Jeyne will be shown? I really want to see that play out on screen rather than just arriving as a shock to his mother as it did in the books.

    Jaime is the most difficult character to deal with. He needs something to do- but not too much, it matters to his character development that he spends a long time locked up and alone. Perhaps he could be interrogated/threatened with execution a bit?

  110. dizzy_34
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Changes I’m cool with are adding the Jaime escape attempt and showing more Robb Stark exploits. Any cuts would have to be more streamlining of the story for example the prologue and the battle of the Black Water (for budgeting). I think you have to have the Iron Isles and Craster. Craster, I believe, will be important for future storylines with the whole giving his newborn sons to the Others.

  111. dizzy_34
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Mormegil: A look at the competition. Camelot Teaser  

    I just saw this and maybe I’m biased but that does have a Legend of the Seeker quality vibe to it. Maybe it’s unfinished footage but it wasn’t too impressive to me.

  112. dizzy_34
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    BTW Winter, ABC is advertising on your site now? Nice! You’ve come a long way.

  113. silverjaime
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    On reading your summary – well done! – it strikes me that there will have to be a lot of new scenes written in the second series. The “action” for the most part is pretty slow, and as you say, a lot of the time, nothing much is happening. Also we have people like Littlefinger – who appears in ep 3 and ep 7 and that’s it. They’ll have to use someone of Aidan Gillen’s calibre more than that surely! It would be such a waste to only see him in a few scenes, even though, yes, he’s not in the book much at all. I think it would be prudent to keep up a stronger arc with established characters while introducing so many new ones in case people just get put off…and turn off the show!

  114. dizzy_34
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    OT but Ran had the article on A Game of Thrones is back in the NY Times top 25 bestsellers list. That’s got to be good news for the series. Must have been lots of people getting it for Christmas. I wonder if True Blood caused sales to go up on the Harris books before it aired? Maybe DH87 can answer that.

  115. Inkasrain
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    I also anticipate seeing much more of Highgarden in season two than we actually have in the books. The emotional fallout from Renly’s death for Loras would definitely be worth a decent chunk of screentime, in my opinion. That can also be used to flesh out the relationship between Loras and Margaery, which has always struck me as both sweet and somewhat twisted by turns.

    There’s also Littlfinger and all his plottings with the Tyrells, obviously. I actually think that they can afford to indicate the outlines of his plans– assassination and scapegoat, mainly– because even if seasons two and three bleed “Clash of Kings” and “Storm of Swords” together, I can’t see Joffery actually dying until the third season. Assuming the time between seasons will be about a year, that means that viewers have a significant amount of time to forget that Littlefinger has something big up his sleeve.

    And this is much less likely, but I wouldn’t mind seeing something more of the situation inside Storm’s End before Stannis takes it. I’ve always really liked Edric Storm, and I’d like to know more about him and his relationship with Ser Cortnay Penrose. Penrose himself is also really interesting; he comes across as really kind of badass in his single scene, and on my reread, I found myself wishing we could spend more time with him.

  116. Herr Fick
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    A point well made, WiC! :)

  117. userj
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    They can easily get rid of Aeron. Just have Asha meet Theon on the ship in disguise, and do the whole flirting scene there… I always thought this is how it should have happened anyway… Theon already feels slighted that Aeron meets him instead of his father… imagine how much worse he’ll feel that “some crofter’s daughter” met him instead – lol.

    For TV, it makes sense to introduce minor characters in the season where they have the most action. Victarion and Aeron will probably not appear as named roles until season FOUR (though there will probably be some guys that COULD be the brothers sitting by Balon at Pike, they’ll be cast for real when they really have something to do). A big bonus to this is that they can cast “special guest stars” in these roles (so big names instead of unknowns).

  118. Allanerik
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Season 2/Episode 01
    - the prologue must be divided in 3 times during this episode. 1) Maester Cressen and Davos (new main role) 2) Cressen recommends Stannis (important new role) to be the ally of Renly or Robb to kick Lannister from iron throne. But the wife of Stannis, Selyse (new, minor role or removed) has a better idea: R’hllor God and Melisandre (important new role : antagonist of Davos). 4) Cressen wants to kill Melisandre. A best scene (it’s magic in the air ^^) to conclude the first episode.

    - We know that Hotpie and Lommy are already cast. So we need Yoren and the group at the end of season one. So : Ary fights the two boys, Gendry protects Ary, Yoren promises to let her at Winterfell, Ary meets Jaqen H’ghar. Maybe at the end, they are followed by the Cersei’s men. And so fights in episode two. I think we need to shorten the Arya’s journey. Maybe more dreamwolfs.

    - The red comet could make a very good transition between characters (Sansa, Dany, Cressen, Bran for example) for the first episode.

    - I think we need more interactions between Sansa and Petyr/Sandor/Cersei/Joffrey. Because Sansa hasn’t a lot of scenes. The only scene about Sansa shows that she is alone and frightened by Jof. Her dream is over. So she needs supports: Petyr/Sandor/Tyrion and Dontos. She saves him. Great scene and after Tyrion and Shagga are coming.

    - Tyrion has a lot of scenes in ACOK. But he is more actor than the victim he was in AGOT. We need to see that. When he know the true about Robert’s and Ned’s death , Tyrion said to Shae he’ll bring (Jof and Cersei) to justice. So a new antagonist for Cersei. She needs also more scenes (her sex relation with Lancel i suppose, but it isn’t enough).

    - Bran and his wolf, dreaming. (maybe not Walder grandsons) Maybe not in the first episode, if it isn’t effective.

    - Jon and Sam go to the North, all group leaves the wall. They must accelerate their journey. At the end of episode, they arrive in a ghost town. No wildling, curious ?

    - There are a lot of stuff about Robb and Tully parents. If Cersei complains about captivity of Jaime, so we need to see him, talking with Robb and Karstark. So we introduce Lord Karstark and his vengeance. For the second scene, the set could be the bedchamber of dying Hoster Tully. First meet with Brynden and Edmure. It’s about the war: a proposal of peace. Catelyn decides to leave and meet Renly.
    A lot of things depends the end of season 1. If we didn’t see Riverrun, we must see the royal arrival. For the first scene ?

    - What about Dany ? 1 scene no more for now. Dany escapes in the desert, she follow the red comet. She gaves a name for each of her dragon (drogon, viseryon, rhaegal). For the first scene or the last one ?

  119. obsidian
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    It’s a ” knotty ” question..;)..( pardon me )

    We can’t know which faction is will be more or less important till we know how GRRM has resolved that problem..( c’mo-o-on , announcement !) Or we need a Littlefinger-esque rundown. Let’s ee , There’s Oberyn, the Ironborn , Marwen…am I leaving anyone out ? I’m with those saying look for minor characters to be axed , combined, etc. and some factions saved for later when their role becomes apparent. ithink it will be quite a bit of fun ..( here’s hoping we get that far ).. because if youlook at Errant Bard’s timeline that The Rabbit linked to above, there’s already quite a bit of crossover between CoK and SoS , so we could wind up being in almost as much suspense over what’s coming next as the first time TV viewers.

  120. Tyler L. Metcalfe
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Caedes: Not to cut this amazing debate (this board is great thanks to you, guys!) but a little bit OT: the great Pete Postlewaithe died yesterday.
    Most remembered for his Giuseppe Conlon, for me he ever will be my mental image of Maester Qyburn…    

    RIP, always loved his movies. He was in two big hits this year in Inception and The Town.

    I think they’ll keep the subplots.

  121. paulgude
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34,

    As a generally paranoid person my radar went off by the way they kept saying how it was, “gritty,” and showed how people really lived at that time. If whoever cut that trailer wasn’t trying to put the show up as Starz’s answer to GOT, I’ll eat my tin-foil hat.

  122. The Rabbit
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Allanerik,

    I like your speculation for the Ep 1 /S2, but do have in mind but we have not got (yet) all the info about how the each storyarc would end in s1.
    A glimpses of it yes, but some of the pieces still miss.
    - Robb storyarc do not end in Riverrun like in the books, and we do not know (at I do not) if the scene of Whispering wood has been filmed. No info of King of the North, neither.So, I suppose, that entering in Riverrun would be the most rational and logic solution to start the s2 with, but I just can be 100 % sure it would be it.
    - Jaime s plotline would depend of all mentioned about Robb.
    - Arya – as most of the guys in Yoren s companion have been already cast, I assume that the first Arya chapter is already covered in s1 (except maybe for Jaqen part)
    - From the reports we had from our dear spies, I could be almost sure, that Tyrion s plotline in s1 ends the same way as in books, so his showing up at Joff s tournament is very possible as a start in s2.
    - Same goes for Dany, do not see any other ending for her plotline in s1 than that in the books.
    - Concerning Bran, almost as same as for Robb – not much info for that end.
    - Jon and the Night Watch – same story, but it could be that they postponed Mormont s decision to go beyond the Wall to s2 (though I do not see why they would do it).
    - Cersei, Sansa, LF, Joff and others from KL – probably the same timeline as in the books, because of the info we have on Tyrion.

  123. paulgude
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Exactly. Removal of any of the players means entirely rethinking the intricate web of motivation and action GRRM has built. I’m firmly on the side that ADwD is taking so long to complete because as the storylines progress the implications of such need to be very carefully thought out. Not featuring members of a certain house until further down the line is possible, but outright removal? It’d be pure hell if you try to stick with the current continuity.

  124. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Hehe, just thinking the same, they’re really setting up a competition there, tapping the same approaches and angles. Well, maybe, bring it on :P

    P.S. Looking forward to watching it, actually ;)

  125. paulgude
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    Yeah, I just think they should let it be its own thing. There’s enough room for people to be fans of both.

  126. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Maybe it’s completly their own honest making-of angle. It’s interesting that based solely on what has been presented to the general public thru these vids, there’s very little difference between the two shows.

  127. Johan Sporre
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Why does Starz block most of the trailers of Camelot that’s available on youtube? Don’t they want people to see the material?

    In the “Camelot – First look” it’s almost comical how Tasmin Egerton almost use the exact same words that has been used for GoT repeatedly. And Joseph Fiennes really pours on the drama in the interview :)

  128. paulgude
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    It’s possible, but there’s no question in my mind that Starz is positioning Camelot to be their Game of Thrones contender and as Johan Sporre mentions above, there are a lot of similarities.

  129. Adam Whitehead
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Something I don’t get about CAMELOT is that they’ve obviously spent the money in front of the camera with some high-profile casting (although a second’s thought reveals these aren’t quite A-listers, but very recognisable nonetheless) but then seem to have skimped behind the scenes. Chris Chibnall is responsible for some of the very worst episodes of TORCHWOOD. Maybe he’ll turn out some brilliant work in this (he did do some half-decent LIFE ON MARS eps), but it’s not encouraging.

    The other thing I really don’t understand is that rather than take the opportunity to go in another direction to MERLIN on the BBC, they seem to have gone down a similar route: a very young Arthur (younger than the one in MERLIN, IIRC), a younger-than-normal Merlin (if not as young as in MERLIN) and right back to the basics of the legend yet again.

    Oh, for someone to buy the rights to Bernard Cornwell’s WARLORD CHRONICLES trilogy and just do that instead. The best modern take on the Arthurian legend and a work that is really dark and gritty.

    Steel_Wind,

    Both the ironborn and Dornish storylines become considerably more important in ADWD and integrate with the established storylines and characters elsewhere. Nothing more than that can be said without venturing into major spoilers.

  130. The Young Wolf
    Posted January 4, 2011 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    In my mind the possible issue for the series is the amount of characters, and the fact that, in the long run, none of them can be cut. There is no Tom Bombadil here, no extraneous plot points, everything is interconnected. The Ironborn and Dorne are two storylines that, in the long run, will prove to be crucial, otherwise GRRM would not have written them.

    In order for ACoK to work Theon’s story needs to be shown. Otherwise Bran never leaves Winterfell and Robb is in a much more secure position. Theon needs to interact with Balon, Damphair and Asha in order for the viewer to understand how he has practically cast out of his own House, looked upon as a Stark rather than a Greyjoy, which motivates him to ‘prove his worth’ i.e. to capture Winterfell. Plus the Esgred scene is hilarious! Euron doesn’t show up until AFFC, and Victarion can always be pushed back, he doesn’t do hardly anything until then. Damphair and Asha will be slightly difficult to cast though because they would have to initially show up in guest star roles and be ready to get promoted 2 years later to regular cast members.
    Dorne isn’t even an issue yet. Oberyn doesn’t show up until ASOS, and as a House the Martells would not show up at all until season 4 (or 5, depending on how they format the seasons). By that time if the series still exists it would probably be a major hit, since the budget is so high they would need big ratings numbers to justify its renewal.

    It is necessary to show the stories of the Ironborn and the Martells because by the end of AFFC they are two of the major powers in Westeros. The Ironborn are wandering around south, conquering as they go, which the Lannisters (or whoever sits the Iron Throne by the end of ADWD) will eventually have to react to, and Dorne is setting itself up for a Targaryen comback. These Houses will be crucial to the development of the next book or two at least and cannot be cut, period.

    ACoK is all but greenlighted at this point given the huge investment from HBO, and if the show is a hit, which I am very sure it will be, (see above, GoT sales skyrocketed into the NYT top 25), ASOS is sure to follow. AFFC/ADWD is the only thing to actually worry about for me, since ASOS sort of has an actual ending that could work for the series, unlike the other books.

  131. shinobishaw
    Posted January 5, 2011 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    I’ve always wanted to get some more details about Robert’s Rebellion, especially the climactic fight at the Tower of Joy- if it’s done cleverly and they really want to fill the extra space a 12-episode order will provide, it might be possible to pull a “Godfather, Part II” and tell the story of the Young Wolf concurrently with the story of the Old Wolf, allowing them to extend Sean Bean’s and Mark Addy’s stay on the show (does anyone know if they’re only contracted for one season?).

    There are obviously some big issues with this. If we see too much Jaime we might start sympathizing with him too early- I get the feeling his POV chapter’s were meant to be a big twist when we actually start to like a character everyone else seems to hate so much (especially Ned, whom we spent so much time with in the first book). If we see too much Tower of Joy it might spoil the twist (if there is a twist to be spoiled) regarding the business with Lyanna’s child (I refuse to give in to the rampant R + L = J speculation just yet). But I think there are some really great storytelling opportunities there.

  132. Allanerik
    Posted January 5, 2011 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Jon Campling for Damphair or Balon Greyjoy ?

  133. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 6, 2011 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    The Rabbit:
    Same with Jaime , but all you can do in that case is to show his try to escape (with some cool dialogue between him and Blackfish).

    This would be very nice, because it would set the scene for a certain confrontation in AFFC (if we get the Blackfish, if the series gets that far…)

    FilliamHMuffman:
    In addition to the new Jaime-Robb scenes, also give Robb more scenes with the Blackfish (the Blackfish’s role must be expanded in season 2 to introduce the character to the TV audience), and add some Robb-Jeyne scenes too.

    I can only agree.

    Steve Hugh Westenra:
    Depending on GRRM’s plans for the characters, it IS possible that some of the Greyjoy and Martell roles might be amalgamated. Who knows though– when some of these characters may be developed into extremely interesting ones in later books, and in that case the producers would be kicking themselves in the balls.Most of these issues really do arise because of AFfC and the absence, in that book, of many fan favourites, along with the addition of a lot of new and relatively transitory POVs (one’s that only have a couple of chapters and so you can’t really become all that invested in them, or one’s who die in that book with relatively little development). Because of this, I think most speculation in terms of either of those storylines won’t be able to fully comprehend the importance or unimportance of particular characters until we have A Dance with Dragons.

    This is indeed our problem when trying to foresee the TV treatment of a character or an arc, or even their evolution in the novels themselves. We still don’t know where they are going. I hate to admit it, but I base much of my Blackfish appreciation on his potential about what he might do in the future. If GRRM just put him in as a picturesque character and kills him off in Chapter 1 of ADWD… I will have bet on the wrong horse, but GRRM will have misled me a lot too.

    Instead, if Brynden’s role, or more likely that of characters such as Benjen, Syrio etc, is extended, we can surmise they will get to be more important in future books.

    In the case of Greyjoys and Martells; obviously GRRM won’t kill them off as a whole, and I don’t think they are not important, quite the contrary. I don’t have particular dislikes either; they are not my favourite families, but I like many of them – Asha, Aeron, Oberyn, Doran. I do think, however, they have an objective problem in the structural way they were introduced: fairly early (esp. Greyjoys), in a fragmented way (esp. in AFFC), and with no real payoff which has to happen in ADWD (maybe).

    The Greyjoys have an important role in the destruction of Winterfell, but after Theon is captured all the storylines remain suspended. AFFC has a thousand Greyjoy POVs, when one or two would have been enough. I had no time to get to care enough about any of them, and anyway none of them gets a resolution, albeit partial. The Martells are introduced later in the saga than the Greyjoys, with a bang (Oberyn), and again are short-changed in AFFC with all the POVs that could have been reduced to Arianne and Doran.

    This is what will give problems to D&D and, I expect, force them to cut and postpone. The Greyjoys and Martells ARE important… we just haven’t been fully told why.

    Zack:
    The other thing I worry about is that Martin may (if only subconsciously) begin to shape his narrative with the TV series in mind, and we might not get the full impact of these storylines in the books just so that book and television series can be better enmeshed. But really, I don’t think I would mind vastly different interpretations of the world in the novels versus the adaptation. Could be a way tokeep things surprising to the viewers/readers. Combining different storylines in the television approach could lead to some fun “Aha!” moments for us readers.

    I do hope there is a synergy between future novels and TV series. For me it’s maybe the most interesting part, technically, of this experiment: making a TV series from a saga which is not complete yet. (Harry Potter was another case, but I personally believe the synergy did not work very well.)

    I hope the TV series will influence GRRM in a positive way; that is, first and foremost, write faster and relent from his decision not to leave notes in case he should decide not to write anymore.

    (I wish GRRM a healthy and happy life, so the worst I allow myself to imagine regarding his production is a very real problem for writers: loss of interest. Which is what some fear has already happened with ADWD. In this case I do hope he admits it and turn the series over to someone else. D&D might come very much apropos.)

    Another positive influence would be for him to rediscover his scriptwriting origins and shape his future novels accordingly.Which does not mean make them simpler or more trivial! The scenes, the dialogues are already very much “movie-like”; the structure, as I said above regarding Greyjoys and Martells, is not. As shown from our debates, it’s hard to translate onscreen a story where the main characters appear so haphazardly. (Same problem in “The Lord of the Rings”, but Tolkien was not a scriptwriter and recoiled from the idea that his book might be turned into a movie.)

    What I hope from this collaboration is future novels with a better structure than AFFC. And why not, even deliberate change between novels and TV series to surprise the fans.

  134. Hillary Whitfield
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Jon Campling for Damphair or Balon Greyjoy ?

  135. Aleksi
    Posted February 1, 2011 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Well put! I definetelly agree the points and problems you describe. But as we’ve seen the material this posse is making is awesome! I’m relying that these guys can cope with this. Story and issues are complex and they have a meening so presenting it visual way will never be easy. But as much as I’ve seen I’m very convinced and I believe that 2nd season issues will be solved properly. Or perhaps thay can even add some their own input to the feelings and issues, not just visually presenting the book… You know, in the way that latest trailer describes anxiety and power madness!

  136. Ashara Dane
    Posted May 9, 2011 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    Ok just a question here? Have you bothered to read the entire series (published to date)?? The fact that Theon betrays Robb, and hello there is a need for all the areas to get involved, this included Dorne, whos princess was murdered by The Mountain, characters such as Syerio, The Bull, Alarya Stone (at least I think thats her name) Each character and story line has its purpose. We have yet to read A Dance with Dragons or the other two (or so I have heard books) so saying that leaving the Iron Men out of the story is a good thing is a bit premature. Also what are you doing after you explain who Theon is and why he goes to Pyke with Robbs message? You can’t very well just drop him off and leave him there, they introduce to many characters for that to happy. Read all the books before you decide who should and should not have been in the books. Just saying.

  137. Ashara Dane
    Posted May 9, 2011 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Amir Mishali,

    How do you figure that Dorne and the Iron Islands come in on Season 4? Hello can we say book two therefore season 2 possiably 3?

    Ok now this is just a comment about the some of the posts I have read (and yes I realize how late I am to this site) the dragons being named for the christian holy trinity?? really?? smoke crack lately?? Have you read the books, even the back covers?? Poor job on costumes?? Again really?? this is not mid evil times or the middle ages, this is fantasy there for fantasy costumes are allowed and honestly these are exactly what I have seen when I am reading the books. Ok with the Theon/Asha yet doesn’t know its his sister sex scean or almost sex scen> they showed Kal Drago doing Dany doggy style so why not Asha grabbing Theon?? I love most of these posts, they prove that some of you have read the books and are thinking how great it would be to see all of them in a series. Yes some things have to be cut for time considerations, but, really people you can’t cut storylines that are vital (even though we may not understand why yet) to the story as a whole. Beleive it or not GGRM knows what he is doing and has a huge hand in the HBO production of the series. Let the man do his work. And please no more renaming the dragons or characters as part of a Holy Trinity. Honestly what I would like to see is who is Jon’s mother, is she Ashara Dane sister to Sir Auther Dane the Sword of the Morning or was she just a common tavern wench? I would love to see a prequil to the whole thing. Ok so I admit it I am hooked, I am offically a Song of Ice and Fire junkie lol

  138. Jason
    Posted July 20, 2011 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    I totally agree with you It took two tries to get through ACoK. But in the end it was worth the read. I agree that some viewers are going to have a hard time with A Clash Of Kings on HBO. My suggestion is that they focus less on Dan and Jon, maybe just put them in a few of the episodes that way you get the feel that there is more time in between each of their scenerios. I think that there is a lot you can get into with the other characters, without losing its integrity.

  139. Jason
    Posted July 20, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    I watched Camelot at the same time as AGoT….no comparison. A lot people liked Camelot…I hated it….the story drags….the acting sucks (besides Eva Green) AGoT is going to make it all the way through. I havent seen a mini-series that draws you in like that, except for Band of Brothers.

  140. Jason
    Posted July 20, 2011 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra:
    Brad Villane,

    To me, she’s actually someone who could be cut. I do think that part of the story is hilarious, but at the same time, if they’re establishing Theon as a womanizer in S1 then there’s pretty much no need for those scenes (especially when Asha kind of cements the fact during the Esgred chapter). They could easily save some money there if they wanted to.

    I agree this chapter isn’t that vital to the story, except to reinforce the fact that Theon craves sex more than any other character, excepting Tyrion, of course.

  141. paulgude
    Posted July 20, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Jason,

    Obviously not, as Game of Thrones is still here. :)

    At the time I wrote this, there was a trend for Camelot to mimic Game of Thrones’ marketing.

  142. Jason
    Posted July 20, 2011 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    reedgirl:
    I personally can’t wait to see shit hit Joffrey in the face. Would be the TV event of the year. I might even make a screensaver! (Cersei’s morale ball going south… love the way that was said.)

    Esgred/Theon – oh man, I hope they keep the physical molestation in. Makes it So. Much. Worse.

    The House of the Undying is going to be very telling about the future of the series… Heck, any scene with dragons will make me drool.

    I have always had a problem picturing/getting into the Blackwater battle scene – every time I read it I end up listlessly skimming through it. Maybe there’s just too many named-but-faceless ships (for me) to care? Anyhow, it seems like a lot of prose when the point is simply fire/crash/destruction. Davos’ outcome is important to me, but I’ve never been much for tactical warfare descriptions. It’s the same for me with land warfare – flanking/vanguard/reserve/cavalry etc are just concepts to me. I know what they mean, but I can’t seem to picture them in any detail. I read battle descriptions as a means to get to the next part of the story and to find out what happens to the POV characters.

    It’s gonna be hard to put the battles on TV methinks.

    Because of the nature of the Battle I think that one of two possibilities is going to happen.
    1) Its going to to be an extended scene, where half is focused on the ship battle and half is focused on the land defeat of Stannis. OR…..
    2) They are going to focus solely on the ships and at the very beginning of ASoS….show the aftermath and just explain late what happens, with possible flashbacks. Either way they are going to have to show the Hound leaving, cause there is no way they can explain his having left the scene of the battle without totally remaking some of the potential scenes in Season 3: A Storm of Swords.

  143. TheImp'sNose
    Posted July 20, 2011 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    With some streamlining, re-arranging and additions here and there, I personally think COK has the potential to be an even better season than GOT was.

    Tyrion’s intriguing at King’s Landing, Jon’s ranging and Arya’s travels in particular I think are going to make absolutely splendid television.

  1. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by valantin, Chad Harris. Chad Harris said: Script Outline: A Clash of Kings: Ain’t this just like us, leaping ahead again, putting the cart before the slave… http://goo.gl/fb/iKnfd [...]

  2. [...] in January, Fire and Blood broke down A Clash of Kings into bite-sized chapter summaries. He then laid those out into a speculative 12 episode season. We [...]

  • Recent Comments

  • More from FanSided

  • Archives

    • 2014 (337)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •