GoT gay? We GoT that!
By Fire And Blood on in Media, Speculation.

SPOILER NOTE: If our gentle readers do not wish to know which ASoIaF characters are gay, or are not gay, or are pretending to be gay, or are pretending not to be gay, or which ones just use their lofty positions to reenact a certain violent boar-tusked goring scene with their fingertips, well … uh … please skip this article altogether. Wait—is that a Tea Party rally I see yonder?! Go!

Shh, don’t tell ‘em: here we have the cloak of the Rainbow Guard!—>

(Tho’ someone clearly stripped the indigo stripe away. Bah! Who cares? Indigo shouldn’t even be a real color!)

Anyway. Two recent articles popped up online regarding the gay relationships in A Song of Ice and Fire contrasted with those that will appear in Game of Thrones (thanks to our guy Ax0r for supplying the links). Both articles contained new interviews with George R.R. Martin, as well as D.B. Weiss.

One from the site AfterElton, written by Brent Hartinger, can be found HERE.

The other, from the …ology site written by Matt Marquez, can be found HERE.

(The articles are actually both quite similar.)

One little tidbit that almost went unnoticed:

Better still, the gay characters will become more important in the second season, based on the second book. “They have a bigger role than they do in the first,” Weiss says.

Will have, eh? The Season Two confirmation is closer and closer, my dear friends!

Fire And Blood: It’s interesting that the Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgender (LGBT) community is asking pointed questions. I like the fact that anyone can love the story, no matter their preferences. It’s also interesting the show-runners are basically saying, yes, we will be showing you Renly and Loras–episode 3–blatantly together! It won’t just be hinted at. It’s also (thirdly) interesting that they noted Viserys as being the “effeminate” one (“very blond and affected”)–but clearly straight. Not sure what being blond has to do with it, but there you have it! The Red Viper and his bisexual leanings are also mentioned.

No mention at all of the Blackfish who, as many people have speculated, might also be gay. Or as one of my “bear” friends tells me, “He’s a bear man’s dream.” ( ! )

Lesbians are clearly harder to find; they’re not even mentioned in either article. I always had the slightest suspicion that Dacy Mormont might be a tad butch for her mailed skirts, and people of course mention Irri (though I have always considered that a servile thing). And has Osha ever stated that she liked Gage’s hands wandering about? I don’t think she gave it a thumbs up or a thumbs down. I could see bisexual Natalia Tena playing a bisexual Osha, noooo problem!

With the knowing understanding that I am taking a great big risk with the ‘shipping industry out there, here’s my question to the fandom: are there any other “deviate from the norm” relations you have perhaps imagined? Are you LBGT and want to see more? Or does this topic simply make your toes curl?

(I’ll ask nicely ahead of time—let’s not have this spiral down into namecalling. We’re attempting a mature discussion of a very real topic—one that is important to more than a few people.)

FaBihoff is curious! (Maybe not bicurious, but surely curious!)


494 Comments

  1. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    I find it offensive you would equate Tea Party people with homophobia. Do you really want to be painting people that, according to polls by left-leaning media outlets, a majority of americans agree with, in that way? Did you think such a comment was clever?

    What is it about people who favor fiscal restraint, limited government, and freedom that makes you think they hate homosexuals?

    Maybe you should edit your post and remove that incendiary comment and stop trying to be so clever? You know, before HBO has to pull all the goodies they’ve been sending you because they get a ton of complaints about the divisive nature of the posts on your site?

  2. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    John,

    I’ll take that as being tongue-in-cheek! Just like mine was. :)

  3. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    I was serious.

    Your post is completely offensive, you’re basically calling a huge swath of american homophobic, that isn’t cool, especially when it isn’t true.

    You wouldn’t talk about minority characters and at the beginning ask all the white readers to go attend a Klan rally would you? That is pretty much what you did.

    You know what pisses people off? Being called things like racist or homophobe when they aren’t.

    Here is an idea… try not to insult millions of people HBO is hoping will tune in on April 17th.

  4. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    John,

    Newp, not what I said. I actually equated the Tea Party peoples as a group who might not want spoilers. Or rather, I equated people who did not want spoilers as possible ladies and gents who might be interested in Tea Party goings-ons. They have rallies and stuff, I’m told.

    Not rallies against spoilers, but for other … Tea Party stuff.

    It’s in the spoiler section!

    So, John, how do you feel about gay characters in ASoIaF?

  5. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    (I was actually preparing for more of a backlash against people in support of the color indigo. Maybe I’ve dodged that bullet!)

  6. Alexander Nightlin
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    I don’t know about John, but as a Bi myself I see no problem. These books are so rare and beautiful that they can’t help but stretch some peoples imagination. When I read about the relationship with Jaime and Cersei I couldn’t help but fell intrigued. A rich world with vibrant characters that each have their flaws and weaknesses.

  7. Alexander Nightlin
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    (And Strengths)

  8. Peltast
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    I was under the impression that Dacy Mormont has a crush on Robb, I seem to remember a feast scene (Red Wedding?) where Dacy blushes when dancing with Robb. Or is that just my mind suggesting Brienne parrallels?

    With the Blackfish I’m not sure his sexuality matters at all, for the same reason Maester Aemon’s sexuality doesn’t. Unless they actually show us his backstory, that is.

    I’m straight, but I’m still glad they won’t be cutting Renly/Loras out, considering all the love (heh heh) the heterosexual couples are getting.

  9. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    AS I read it you were saying people who don’t want to read about gay characters can go to a tea party rally. Tea Party is often lumped in with the right, which does include homophobic people (not exclusively, John McCain’s own wife and daughter did anti prop 8 ads), but they’re more libertarian than that, and even if there were members against gay rights, it isn’t the group as a whole, which, as of Nov 2nd, appears to currently be a majority of Americans, well over 100 million people in anycase. If I can read it as an insult to them, (and to myself though I’ve never been to an event I agree with their economic platform), they can, and you don’t need to be turning people off from this series before it airs. Furthermore, don’t forget that very blue California elected very blue Barack Obama in 2008 with a significant margin of victory while at the same time passing Proposition 8 with a significant margin of victory, meaning many, many, Obama voters were homophobic. You might have said they could all go to an Obama Rally (which, by the way, would still be offensive for the same reasons).

    I personally feel a joke about someone being homophobic (when they’re not) is as wrong and as offensive as a homophobic joke. The same goes for racism. Improperly calling someone racist is as offensive as someone saying racist things.

    How do I feel? Well… I’ve read the books three times, though the last time was maybe 4 years ago, I don’t remember Renly being gay. So it is news to me. I just remember the bisexuality in Dany’s camp, and of course endless Blackfish speculation. I didn’t equate the rainbow guard to Renly being gay, because well… that would be completely anachronistic of GRRM… a modern day symbol of something being used as such, and he hates that sort of thing. It’d be like calling a raven “Blackberry.”

  10. Adriano
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    John,

    1) This is the Internet. Fire and Blood has the right to publish anything she/he thinks appropriate.

    2) You say you are offended by that statement. I’m glad you felt it necessary to share it with the GoT community, but I still fail to see the relevance of your argument. Why should I (or anyone) care if you feel offended? Nothings happens when you are offended other than you being offended.

    Although I do not trust Wikipedia too much it is sometimes useful to find articles and references. I also do not like polls and numbers but since you mention some in your post I feel more confident in proposing them as an answer.

    From:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement#Views_of_supporters

    “82% do not believe that gay and lesbian couples should have the legal right to marry, and that about 52% believed that “lesbians and gays have too much political power.”[68][69]”

    [68]
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/02/tea-party-poll-more-than_n_597968.html?ref=fb&src=sp#sb=164043
    [69]
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2012005031_new_poll_looks_at_tea_party_vi.html

    Having said that. I would suggest we keep the discussion focused on the REAL topic.

    To me one of the most important aspects of GoT is the similarity with the books within the limits that are set by time, resources and tv adaptation requirements.

    I would not like some much to see relations between characters that do not specifically mirror the books. I say so because I am conscious that as soon as I watch the first episode of the series, and as I go along, the characters that I have mentally envisaged in my mind will eventually get swapped for the actors playing them. This means when I read ADWD they will be my new heroes. That is already too much of a change. Having the characters in GoT behaving in a significant different way, in this case sexually, will create a distortion between the books and the the series that would not favour the fans.

    Adriano

  11. Cutter Allen Kilgore
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Wow, I really don’t think he meant anything sinister by it, John. People get so so wrapped up in these sensitive issues that sometimes we all need to take a big breather and try not to lash out at other people. It’s often very difficult to judge someone’s intention when reading online text because text has no subtle nuances the way that human interaction does. We can’t always determine when a statement or whatever is meant to be a little tongue-in-cheek.

    I wasn’t offended, for what it’s worth. But, hell, I’m not gay. I didn’t feel like you, Fab, were trying to insult me or call me a homophobe. Anyway.

    I personally love the relationship (largely off-screen as it is) between Renly and Loras. I love that one of the finest jousters in the kingdom (and a considerable hunk) is absolutely in love with his liege lord and disinterested in the thousands of adoring noble ladies who blush at his smiles and innocent glances. I love that he’s cocky and arrogant and thought of as one of the few “true knights” in the realm, considering the long-established stigma of effeminate gay men that many viewers will be familiar with.

    Also, anyone else find it a little weird that people mention Lyn Corbray’s *gay* sexual taste but not that he also seems to be interested in boys, (as opposed to men.) Or maybe I just mis-interpreted that about him. But it seems to me like he’s into pre-pubescent boys rather than grown men. I think it makes him even more interesting as a side character, personally.

  12. Ingemar Svensson
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Eventhough there is less lesbian action in Game of Thrones there will still be a lesbian audience because of Lena Headey who has a large lesbian following. I’m guessing Emilia Clarke might get a good following as well.

  13. GrandmaFunk
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Can someone enlighten me as to what would make readers think the Blackfish is gay?

    as for renly/loras…i was disappointed when it was pointed out to me that george has confirmed they were gay, the story worked better when all the allusions were semi-credible taunts by other characters and we were left wondering.

    it also makes the ‘rainbow’ guard concept really really really really lame.

  14. Winter Is Coming
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    John: How do I feel? Well… I’ve read the books three times, though the last time was maybe 4 years ago, I don’t remember Renly being gay. So it is news to me. I just remember the bisexuality in Dany’s camp, and of course endless Blackfish speculation. I didn’t equate the rainbow guard to Renly being gay, because well… that would be completely anachronistic of GRRM… a modern day symbol of something being used as such, and he hates that sort of thing. It’d be like calling a raven “Blackberry.”  

    Actually the Rainbow Guard thing wasn’t intentional by GRRM. It was just a coincidence. The other hints were intentional. I missed it on my first read as well but once you see it, it becomes kinda obvious.

    And I’m sorry you were offended by the Tea Party remark but I’m sure FaB didn’t mean anything personally by it. In case you haven’t been on this site very long, his style is very sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek. So please don’t equate it as an attack on you or your political leanings.

    But I appreciate you thinking that this site holds influence over millions of potential viewers though. If only we did get that kind of traffic, I could quit my other jobs!

    As to everyone else, let’s not start jumping on each other. Just comment on the topic at hand but leave the personal attacks out of it.

  15. Peltast
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    GrandmaFunk,

    I think the Blackfish thing is because he obstinately refused to marry any girl Hoster picked out for him. I personally always interpreted it as him just thumbing his nose at his brother and being a romantic, though I can see how other people might think he’s gay.

  16. Mr. Wu
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    John: for the love of god, SHUT UP. No one’s interested in reading tea party propaganda. Take it to Free Republic.

    As for Game of Thrones, while I’m a bit surprised they (apparently) added in some sort of Renly/Loras love scene, considering there’s scenes of Doreah training Dany and getting it on with Viserys, plus Tyrion and Esme Bianco and who knows what else in there, I don’t really see why not. Actually, I’m not sure about it being in season 1, but that’s just because Loras and Renly are pretty far in the background for most of that book… seems it’d make more sense in season 2. But I’m sure it’ll be fine. I doubt it’ll be as graphic as the gay relationship in Spartacus: Blood and Sand.

  17. Becky Wilson
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    I like Game of Thrones politics SO much more than I like American Politics these days. Oi.

    If I’m not mistaken, there’s strong hints that some of the Sand Snakes prefer other women, not to mention Cersei’s liasons with Lady Taena. There’s ample opportunity for some strong LGBT characters in there, which I find awesome. I also hope they don’t emphasize it, just for the sake of emphasizing it. It would detract from the subtle intrigue that is part and parcel of Westeros. Certainly they have to be more overt in television, because you don’t get the inner thoughts of some of the characters – but it’s easy to be heavy handed.

    I still can’t decide if Blackfish is gay or just stubborn. Boy, MAYBE I SHOULD REREAD THE BOOKS FOR THE ELEVENTY BILLIONTH TIME. Gee. Darn. Twist my arm. >:)

  18. Jim
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    I’ve been a long time reader and follower of this blog because I loved the book series and couldn’t wait for the HBO series. But today, I genuinely found a bad taste in my mouth as I read your biased and narrow minded statements about a large group of American society. I, for one, am a Tea Party member and would not be if the group was homophobic. In fact, most of us are Libertarians at heart and support gay rights like myself.

    You dragged politics into one of the few blogs I can read that doesn’t need to do that. I do not know how others feel but I am almost less inclined to visit here now as I do not need someone else outside the mainstream media making blanket statements about the Tea Party. Especially when it comes from an entertainment outlet.

    I hope you can stamp out all that hate in your heart because you are no better than the people who are homophobic.

  19. Abe
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Winter I appreciate your clarrification and understand and very much enjoy FaB’s style, however, in this case I have to agree with John. To take a vieled shot at the Tea Party, in the same post that goes on to talk about having a mature discussion with no namecalling is disingenuous at best.

    In regards to Renly and Loras. On the re-read the clues are at least as obvious as R+L=J even with out the rainbow guard. I think the blackfish being gay is wishful thinking by some, and the post on Lyn Corbay rings eerily true.

  20. Elaine
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    I’m really happy about the emphasis that the Renly/Loras relationship is getting. This is going to sound crazy, but they always came across to me as one of the more fairy-tale couples: you know, knights, tourneys, finery, chivalry. Theirs is one of the most poignant love stories in the series.

    I wish there were a real lesbian couple or two. That’s one of the things that’s bothered me about ASoIaF: when women have sex with each other, it’s about something other than love. Dany’s lonely and horny, so her maid helps her out, and…the “Myrish swamp”? I’m not saying those events are out of character or don’t fit, but it would be nice to balance them out with a relationship that shows that women can actually desire each other.

  21. T. R.
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Peltast,

    I was under the impression that Dacy Mormont has a crush on Robb, I seem to remember a feast scene (Red Wedding?) where Dacy blushes when dancing with Robb. Or is that just my mind suggesting Brienne parrallels?

    I always had this impression as well. Mostly from that scene. Though unlike Brienne, Dacy is described as pretty, so I’m sure she’s had suitors. Maybe it was a bodyguard crush.

    I for one am excited that they are making the Loras/Renly relationship more obvious early. I don’t know who George could have worked it into the books but given the show isn’t bound to the limited POV method of the books it will be really nice to see their relationship given some focus.

    I also think it’s great that the aspect of having so many GBL characters in the story will probably draw new viewers to the show that might have otherwise dismissed it. Fantasy is traditionally a very heterosexual genre (not that there aren’t exceptions), so I think it will pleasantly surprise a lot of people.

  22. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    I’m really glad that I apparently don’t read medieval fantasy with that much modern world context, seemingly contrary to how other people read it. I don’t put things like the Rainbow Guard in modern context, I feel that there’s plenty of context in the story and the semi-historical setting for it to have it’s own context. I feel equating it to modern day homosexuality is like feeling that they are idiots for having a feudal society instead of democracy. In short, I really dislike modern allegory in stories like these.

    As for deviating sexual preferences I think it makes the world and the story feel more realistic as those things are part of humanity. Sexuality overall is not an easy concept to get across in a good way but I think Martin does a good job of it and I never got the feel that it was a cheap trick, just a natural part of the events and characters.

  23. FatManderley
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    To be fair John has a point. Imagine if it was a debate on Iraq, and the topic starter says “If there are any anti-war people, please skip this article altogether. Wait, is that a commie rally I see yonder? Go!” the Internet would be up in arms.

    I do think you’re taking FnB’s joke a little too seriously though, John.

  24. Kai Alexis Price
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    However tempting, do not feed the trolls. It only makes them hungrier.

  25. Poggy
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    hey, I like indigo!

  26. Joakim
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    I think it’s great how GRRM shows a wide range of human nature in ASOIAF, including sexual preference. I initially missed the Renly/Loras relationship as it was far from obvious (though I did understand it later on). I can see how they want to play it up a bit in the second season, and I think it will make the story more interesting.

  27. αιμομιξία
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    I do not worry that show scenes of gay sex, that is already out of fashion. I’m more interested incestuous relationships. It is rumored that in this first season the brothers Jaime and Cersei will not be the only ones with incest. I am interested to know how HBO will explore the theme of incest.

  28. Ikertzeke
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Tea Party´s ideas are homophobic… only in America and…. Iran!!!
    After this post, in Iran they are going to burn George´s books… ;-)

    I love the Rainbow guard for Renly, it´s so… GAY! In Westeros they don´t have a clue… ha ha, unless you are a noble and you know Renly…

  29. Joakim
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Oh, and I think it would be a good idea for HBO to change the Rainbow Guard to something not related to our times. It’s as if Alexander the Great’s army would wear rainbow colors, just silly. Especially if GRRM didn’t mean it as a hint to Renly’s sexual orientation, which WiC mentioned earlier.

  30. coltaine777
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    It seemed pretty obvious to me that Renly and Loras were an item…as for the Blackfish ?..people are reaching with that one…I also think some posters are overreacting to Fabhoff’s post…it was a joke…

  31. Dynasty9
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    I feel that GRRM runs a parallel with the history of the English crown – with the exception of the dragons of course – and see many of the same characters in the “Thrones series”. England had the gay King with his beau, Pier and later Harry or something like that. GRRM is just creating life in a fantasy setting.

  32. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Politicsss! Take it away from usss! It burnsss, Preciousss, it burnsss usss!

    Back to ASOIAF: I always thought that Renly&Loras were one of the best couples in Westeros. I hope HBO does them justice.

    As for my man the Blackfish, I’ll take him any way he is.

    (Though I love the “romantic and stubborn” interpretation – I can tell from first-hand experience, these days it’s hard to be romantic and stubborn.)

  33. userj
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Yay!!! I’m glad Renly/Loras will get some playtime. Considering the actors, it should be super hot. :D“ <-*drooling*

    It will be interesting that we see at least kissing in s1, in that the relationship is being made a LOT more obvious. Yeah I know that in hindsight reading even aGoT there are some hints, but really it wasn't CONFIRMED until book 3. In aCoK we are informed that Renly is not into the ladies, and Loras flips the FK out when Renly dies… but for me it wasn’t enough to put 2&2 together until the various conversations with Loras in aSoS.

    So anyway, the TV audience will simply have a different perception of this relationship than we did when we read the book. But, I guess that’s true for anyone! And they probably figured with secondary characters deviating a bit didn’t matter as much.

  34. reedgirl
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Not GLBT myself, but I enjoy a good homosexual lovescene time and again. I thought Dany/Irri was the hottest sex scene – what woman wouldn’t want that? (scratch that, it’s not something we should talk about here – but a freakin’ HANDMAIDEN to do WHATEVER you want!? Whenever? Wherever…?). And it was kept all so ‘innocent’, just an adoring servant taking pride in her work. But is that the end of it? I don’t think so. (‘Betrayed for love’ has an Irri ring to it, imho. She’s been under the radar for far too long.)

    Renly & Loras = hot. I just love it and I am gonna make the dh watch their worship in episode 3, squirming! Loras is SO the girl, lol. But the emotionality gets me too. So subtle, but it’s there, painted with a light touch. Angst is good. “Fringe’ angst is even better.

    Blackfish – I don’t see him as gay though, just committed elsewhere (or a ‘lone wolf’/’sow wild oats’ type). I’m sure we’ll discover why he never married, or why he was turned off by marriage to a particular person.

    Cersei and Falyse: epic fail. Glad they were up to it, mind you, it just shows that Cersei is a bit of a tramp, and a user, and messed up. And ungrateful! And c-c-cold.

    The Red Viper turns my crank. Ah. What a man. Open-minded. His courtesan is bi, and not afraid of it (I wouldn’t doubt that he’s crossed swords too). That couple probably doesn’t fall asleep watching Leno on TV at night. But if Ellaria is still single…

    So yeah, bring it on! Open minded, I see the hotness in all of it.

  35. DeeDee
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    In Spain we have a saying: quien se pica, ajos come. That means, if something such as a joke (like the one FaB made) or a silly comment bothers you, it’s because there is some true in what that joke, or whatever, is saying.
    On the topic: really cool to read characters like Renly and Loras are going to have more time on the screen in the (it seems certain) second season. Plus, I think gay and lesbian sex is really hot so… nice :)

  36. Herr Fick
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    reedgirl: Not GLBT myself, but I enjoy a good homosexual lovescene time and again. I thought Dany/Irri was the hottest sex scene – what woman wouldn’t want that? (scratch that, it’s not something we should talk about here – but a freakin’ HANDMAIDEN to do WHATEVER you want!? Whenever? Wherever…?). And it was kept all so ‘innocent’, just an adoring servant taking pride in her work. But is that the end of it? I don’t think so. (‘Betrayed for love’ has an Irri ring to it, imho. She’s been under the radar for far too long.)Renly & Loras = hot. I just love it and I am gonna make the dh watch their worship in episode 3, squirming!Loras is SO the girl, lol. But the emotionality gets me too. So subtle, but it’s there, painted with a light touch. Angst is good. “Fringe’ angst is even better.Blackfish – I don’t see him as gay though, just committed elsewhere (or a ‘lone wolf’/’sow wild oats’ type). I’m sure we’ll discover why he never married, or why he was turned off by marriage to a particular person.
    Cersei and Falyse: epic fail. Glad they were up to it, mind you, it just shows that Cersei is a bit of a tramp, and a user, and messed up. And ungrateful! And c-c-cold.The Red Viper turns my crank. Ah. What a man. Open-minded. His courtesan isbi, and not afraid of it (I wouldn’t doubt that he’s crossed swords too). That couple probably doesn’t fall asleep watching Leno on TV at night. But if Ellaria is still single…So yeah, bring it on! Open minded, I see the hotness in all of it.    

    Greatest comment yet.

    ;)

  37. ablaaa
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Sorry, not digging the idea of said relationships made more obvious in the TV show.
    Thumbs down. q-_-p

  38. RahBur
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    I totally missed Loras+Renly on my first, second read-throughs. It took the WiC community to point it out to me. Reading it through a 3rd time … “Oh yeah, well whaddaya know….” Just another reason I love this series – GRRM kills most fantasy stereotypes and surprises the heck out of his readers at every turn.

    The fact that Loras is this super hot, incredibly skilled KNIGHT, who just happens to be gay … who else would do that but GRRM? I dunno, maybe someone has … just no one I’ve read.

    Obviously, since I love these books, and I’m a huge fan of shows like ROME and Boardwalk Empire, I dont have a problem with sex being depicted in literature or on screen. But I DO cringe when it becomes a huge focus of the show (True Blood, IMO). Of course, this is a purely subjective thing, but I’m really hoping HBO doesnt go overboard with it, no matter the orientation. I think there’s plenty of sex to make anyone happy ^^ As for the lack of lesbian representation.. I understand there’s no lesbian relationship detailed in the book, but there’s more than enough girl-on-girl sex. I’m very much against adding more sex to the series for the sake of pleasing every sexual orientation out there.

  39. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Adriano,

    Uhh… sure, he has the right to say what he wants, he can be offensive all day long and call half of the country gay, and then call the other half queer, while telling a racist joke and using Carlin’s 7 dirty words.

    And if I wanted I could start a letter writing campaign to HBO or a GoT boycott (I don’t, I want the show to be a success, but what if someone who doesn’t care gets a whiff of this guy calling people homophobic?). Is this really the kind of publicity the show would want? Really, insulting half of the country, do you think HBO and Game of Thrones can be a success with half the country tuning in?

    The fact is HBO has blessed this blog with access to events and information, that official association puts them on the hook for things said here, I’m sure they do not want homophobic statements or accusations coming out from the blog authors here. I’m sure they do not want the controversy or the distraction.

    Calling over 100 million people homophobic has no place on a blog about a TV show, if you want to play demagogue you should make a different blog. It is not funny. It is juvenile, it is immature, and it is completely tasteless.

  40. sjwenings
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Mentioning a Tea party rally here, when we’ve seen Tea party rallys against same sex marriage seems perfectly fine.

    It’s not exactly an anti-gay club, but there are certainly a lot of haters amongst them. Anyone who wants to be a member of such an organisation has it coming. You deserve it.

  41. Targaryen Fanboy
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    As long as they still have good character moments and/or story with sex scenes then I don’t mind. Sex is a huge part of life, but it’s my opinion HBO sometimes goes to far. We only have so much time. I think I’m just wary because of True Blood. Their sex is like half of the episode sometimes. I hope it’s more like Deadwood and The Wire.

    PS: Fab you are hilarious!

  42. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    I have to confess I missed all that on my first read as well. At least I didn’t pick up on it until very late. Another demonstration of skillfull writing! The show enhancing or bringing to the forefront what is already in the plot, that’s great – but as with other elements, don’t invent anything just for the sake of it.

    As to real-world politics, I am of the opinion that this blog can easily do without it, both in the post remarks and in the comments.

  43. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    This is awesome. Though I never caught any hints for either Dacey Mormont (she fights in her mail, but so does Brienne…) or the Blackfish, I’m sooo looking forward to Renly/Loras. Gonna be heartbreaking. Which makes for excellent TV. I also wouldn’t be bothered if they choose to “gayify” some of the characters from the series whose sexuality is unclear. Osha could be bi, as has been suggested–not lesbian though. Her “There’s a big man” comment to naked Hodor is too awesome for that.

    Also: lol at the Tea Party. How annoying if the site were to cater to a fringe. Please don’t change your awesome ways, WiC, FaB, HmR.

  44. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    See, and this is why we need an edit button, to help out my poor Nyquil-fuzzed brain (stupid cold!) and it’s inability to find two synonyms for “awesome.” Grah. My vocabulary is extensive I swear :(

  45. Chris
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    John,
    John,

    You expressed your opinion in your first post which is fine. However, to continue to ramble on about it is pathetic. Enough is enough and move on.

  46. Tyrion's Scar
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    I have only read all the books once so I am no expert but I swear I don’t remember picking up on Renly or Loras being clearly gay. I mean obviously they [especially Loras] do fit some of the stereotypes. I am glad they aren’t shying away from any issues like that. Which I didn’t really expect them to. HBO has always been beyond friendly to the gay community.

    Also want to say I had never really thought of politics in connection with this blog but I am glad to see that it seems to be progressive. I would have had a hard time continuing to frequent it had I found out you guys were a bunch of gay hating Tea Partiers. [I can say that because big bad John from the first reply can’t threaten to contact HBO about me =D ].

    I wouldn’t worry myself any about any backlash. Right wingers don’t read anything beside Reagan biographies and Mein Kampf. And if they were going to be put off of HBO it would have happened a long long time ago by things like True Blood.

  47. Stella Maris
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    reedgirl,

    Haha! I am 100% with you on all of that.

  48. Sir Mookie
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Until today, the differenes in the B-brothers sexuality never occurred to me. Robert the horn dog wencher, Renly the closeted homosexual, and Stannis, the workaholic, always struck me as ardently asexual. I recall reading that he performed his spousal “duty” only a couple times a year or was that Cersei thinking (in disgust) about Robert. I can’t recall exactly. Oh, WiC, love the site, love the passion about these books, love the comment section sans some of the pisier ones…

  49. Vee
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    John,

    Dude. Let it go.

    Polls are just that, polls. I’ve never been in one, and I’m not a Tea Party member. Neither is my husband, who is also not in any polls. So assuming one other person is a Tea Party member that is also not in the polls, 66% of Americans not in the polls are not Tea Party members.

    Statistics are so mangled to say what you want to say.

    I’ve known FaBio a long time, and he will say all sorts of things that pretty much anyone can take offensively. You know what? He doesn’t care if you’re offended. It’s more interesting to see WHY you’re offended than anything else. Because really, why are you? Politics in American nowadays are way too divisive as it is, which is why I’m expecting Joss Whedon to be right. China will rule the world. While we’re bickering about inane side-line comments on a blog about a fictional TV show, China is making vast quantities of renewable energy that our politics are too divisive to step up and do.

    To all the offended: Get over it, and do something productive with the time it took you to read all these comments, wallow in “OMG he didn’t!”, and look up statistics XX% people don’t care about.

    Now I’m going to go do something productive, instead of calculating how many people in this thread don’t care about statistics. :p

  50. marzman
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    I hope I do speak for most non-US fans of the books by saying take your political discussions to another place. I don’t want to read about tea or coffee parties or Obama rallies… or even John Stewart’s rally for that matter. And I don’t care who started with the politics in this forum.

  51. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Vee: Now I’m going to go do something productive, instead of calculating how many people in this thread don’t care about statistics. :p

    When you do that in your spare time, count me in. According to statistics, if I eat 2 chickens and you are starving, we’ve eaten 1 chicken each. :P

  52. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Vee,

    You know, it really wouldn’t make a difference to me if the Tea Party was just a group of 10 people in some guy’s basement. It is offensive to brand people homophobic like that. As offensive as it is to tell a homophobic joke.

    What if he had said something like … “Renly is gay, and then he is killed, what sweet justice that is.” It would be offensive wouldn’t it? Homophobia is offensive. Not something to be joked about, in either direction.

  53. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    I think the Renly/Loras scene kind of has to be shown especially since it will add depth to some characters that we won’t see too much of. Apparently a lot of people missed it in the books because of the subtlety so if they went that route those two characters would have much less screen time / importance, Loras would just be cute knight at the tourny and Renly would be smartass guy at council meetings.

    Also Cersei/Taena is more about two women using what they have for political gain than it being any genuine attraction, while I think Cersei is attracted to her its in the context of Cersei wishing she was a man – i think its that thought that turns her on more than Taena. Just to clarify Cersei wants to be a man for reasons of power both politically and sexually (in that situation)

  54. Shannon
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Completely bypassing the tea-party debate going on in these comments (other than to say, FaB, hey, I thought it was funny!), I don’t think it is unrealistic or ‘unbalanced’ at all for ‘truly lesbian’ characters to be difficult to find in ASOIAF. I mean, as a whole, they live in a very patriarchal, feudal society. Property is inherited by men, money is controlled by men, politics are controlled by men. Even for a lesbian, marrying a man in that world is a necessary transaction to ensure their own survival in relative comfort. The difference between this seems to be that for men in that world, there are systems in place that allow them to bypass traditional heteronormative culture. Blackfysh, as a younger brother, can simply refuse to marry. Inheritance is really not a big deal for him. Alternatively, he could have taken the black or joined the Kingsguard, both of which include vows against marriage. And then there’s Renly, who WAS married, but whom nobody has any problem believing was anything but Kinsey 6 gay. If he and Margaery had produced an heir, I highly doubt this perception would have changed in the least. People would have said “Well, that’s just for inheritence and politics. She’s still just a beard.” Why can’t that go the other way? Why can’t some of the married mothers be lesbians who did their duty?

  55. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Shannon,

    I think the main reason why the married mothers would not go the other way is that we only see Catelyn and Cersei’s POVs for married mothers and neither lends themselves to that and most secondary characterwith significant background details are men (as men in the story generally have more impact on events ie patriarchal society)

    Also I dont necessarily think Renly was Kinsey 6 gay but he was politically smart as well as gay so an heir would definately been seen as a politically motivated as was his marriage (Highgardens strength) since two of Renly’s defining charactersitics are his sexuality and his political awareness

  56. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Rob O Sevens,

    I think the comment was speaking more broadly. I can see a woman feeling like getting married and producing heirs is what has to be done, especially in a society as patriarchal as Westeros. A lot of marriages seem to be “arranged” too, right? Or at least done for reasons other than outright love. See: Ned stepping in for Brandon to marry Cat. Marriage out of duty to one’s family, to put her House in a stronger position politically…

    So I think it’s a fair assumption that there are a considerable number of lesbians, nevertheless with husbands, even if Cat and Cersei aren’t among them.

  57. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Also Im Canadian and I find it astounding how polarized America is on so many subjects and how they all tend to get tied up with one another left vs right, gay rights, religion (especially), etc.
    Truly blows my mind

  58. Shinyteapot
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    I have no objection to Loras/Renly sex scenes- or any sex scenes of any variety for that matter, as long as there aren’t so many there’s no time for the rest of the story! Having said that, if this relationship will be explicitly shown, I hope the series can still make clear the way their relationship fits i with society- they’re trying to keep it secret, not entirely succeeding (not everyone knows, but many do), I wonder if they realise how many know their secret? They still pretend to be straight in public (Loras gives flowers to girls, Renly gets married). I wonder if Margaery knew about them- seems likely she did.

    I really don’t want to find out either way about the Blackfish though. His sexuality is not relevant to the story (unless of course this changes later on) and I like that he retains a bit of mystery- the reader/viewer can interpret things as they see fit. Being gay wouldn’t be enough to stop him marrying anyway- many nobles marry for political rather than romantic reasons. Maybe his reason for not marrying is that he has a secret girlfriend or boyfriend- or he’s waiting for the right person, or someone broke his heart, or someone he loved died- any of these could be true regardless of his sexuality.

    I must comment briefly on the rather divisive remark made in this post. I like indigo and feel it should be immediately reinstated :p

  59. Aule
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    For me the Loras+Renly relationship wasn’t clear until book 3. I do believe however that Jaime may be “taking an interest” in Loras in book 4, seeing as how he always stands up for him against his lovely sister. It might be initiated by his disillution with Cersei. More or less the same story that we see going on with Cersei and Teena. I just think Jaime is more slow to jump to that sort of exploration than his sister.

    About the Loras+Renly being gay, I find it really funny how GRRM makes it so realistic, because irl young girls often seem to like gay men, and the same is clearly protrayed in the books (also with Jaime, if my suspicion mentioned in the above paragraph becomes true). So that’s what I find really funny :)

  60. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    I didnt mean to imply that there are not lesbians in Westeroes I just was kinda of replying to Shann0ns question on why its not perceived that way, I think the main reason is that the there really arent any characters or POVs that lend itself to that especially secondayr female characters. I was speaking more to perception than reality

  61. Shannon
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Rob O Sevens,

    I agree with you, actually. My comment had more to do with perception than actual reality. Personally, one of my favorite things about this series is that GRRM sees and writes in shades of gray, which is sadly something that a lot of people are blind to. Also throwing a monkey wrench into the whole over-labeling trap that modern society has fallen into is the fact that, in that world, GRRM has drawn a clear distinction between marriage and love. There may be loving couples, but it is extremely clear that in this context, marriage is a socio-economic and sometimes political transaction.

    As for the fact that the male characters are more represented in POV chapters and have richer histories, that kind of goes along with what I was saying. In a feudalistic patriarchal society, it’s only natural that the male characters would be at the forefront of the story, directly involved in what is going on. The women who are on the front lines would, according to their own rules and standards, be rather the exception to the rule.

  62. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Shinyteapot: I wonder if Margaery knew about them- seems likely she did.

    She’d have to be pretty daft to not get it, what with Renly not consummating the marriage with her, despite how beautiful she is. She’s got the clearest view of the man, and she seems to be quick-witted (judging from how she sees past Cersei’s doubletalk) and I just can’t imagine that she would miss that particular relationship. Especially not if somebody as distanced from them as Jaime can make cracks about it.

  63. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    ablaaa: Sorry, not digging the idea of said relationships made more obvious in the TV show.
    Thumbs down. q-_-p    

    I agree with this. I also agree that Fire and Blood made a joke in poor taste, and his defense response was wrong about being spoilers, I had to go back and read it again. In context it fully meant: “Cant handle the homosexuality? hey! look over there a tea party group to join”.

    Having a discussion about the rumored and possibly confirmed homosexuality of characters from the books being possibly literally shown doing such things on HBO fine. Thats actually an interesting topic. How much would it ruin it to change it to blatant instead of implied?
    Bring in politics and insult any group of members in small jest, specially one so vocal in complaining on such issues. Probably not so good.

    IMHO, I think HBO should go the same route as the books. Don’t fully expose the characters as gay. But to imply like the books do in varying amounts. Its actually far more interesting this way, and I think why George wrote it as such. I don’t know how well seeing gay sex scenes would come across for ratings.

    I’m straight and don’t agree with homosexuality. But I was generally ok that George involved such aspects into his books, and that even such characters are not left outside the circle of danger also. No one is safe. If you have the characters blatantly come out of the closet in the series. It changes the interaction between any character with them.

  64. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Aule,

    I have never seen the Jaime/Loras relationship that way I always perceived it as Jaime seeking redemption through trying to mentor Loras – he sees the parallels between the two of them: young, arrogant and extremely talented warriors, and wants to prevent Loras from making similar mistakes (I think he even sees Loras as another potential kingslayer although that may have been Tyrion)
    As Jaime becomes disillusioned with Cersei he starts looking at his own mistakes and stops becoming (as) selfish and starts looking at the good in others Ie, Brienne and Loras

  65. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Shannon,

    Rob O Sevens: Aule, I have never seen the Jaime/Loras relationship that way I always perceived it as Jaime seeking redemption through trying to mentor Loras – he sees the parallels between the two of them: young, arrogant and extremely talented warriors, and wants to prevent Loras from making similar mistakes (I think he even sees Loras as another potential kingslayer although that may have been Tyrion)As Jaime becomes disillusioned with Cersei he starts looking at his own mistakes and stops becoming (as) selfish and starts looking at the good in others Ie, Brienne and Loras  Quote  Reply

    well said

  66. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Dude…why must you do the Tea Party cut?
    don’t be a dick

  67. Shannon
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Exactly! It is especially interesting how readers seem to perceive those characters, too. Like Taena, for example. Yes, she’s married, and yes, she’s obviously using her sexuality to gain an advantage at court, but her husband doesn’t seem to mind at all. If I remember correctly there was a strong implication or a statement that she and her husband rarely if ever actually had sex. If that’s the case, is it really so out of the question that theirs is the ultimate marriage of convenience? If she were a lesbian and he were gay or simply asexual, all they have to do is produce and heir and for all intents and purposes, they are done. They never have to have sex again if they don’t want to, and if they are both comfortable in the knowledge that neither is remotely interested in the other, why not agree to overlook each other’s affairs? I’m not saying this is or is not the case, just that there is a tendency in this fandom to judge a female character by her marital status–a tendency that does not exist for men, and that, I think, is a very narrow-minded approach.

  68. Steve B
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I’m not even in the tea party (actually a staunch democrat) and even I found the initial post out of place. I know you were trying to be funny FaBio, but whether you meant it or not, the comment came off as rather judgmental- and definitely seemed to equate tea party member with homophobes.

    You’re often very funny, but I agree, I’d ask to have the politics removed next time. There are lots of conservative and liberal fans of asoiaf. I’ve heard many people bash grrm’s politics, but love his books. Why bring all of that here?

    We can smash each other’s faces in politically somewhere else! :)

    Just my two cents.

  69. Sareeta
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    I love this article, and even though I have strong (negative) opinions about the Tea Party, I’m going to refrain from going into them because this isn’t the place to do it.

    Also,

    Blackfish Blues’ “Politicsss! Take it away from usss! It burnsss, Preciousss, it burnsss usss!” made me laugh, hehe.

    I like that GRRM created LGB characters, because it makes the world that much more diverse and representative. I’m also glad he didn’t make it obvious or make them stereotypical gay characters. Honestly, I didn’t pick up on Loras and Renly being gay when I read the books. I’m happy they’ll explore the relationship in the TV version. I didn’t notice The Red Viper being gay either.

    I don’t think Dacy Mormont was gay, just a really cool warrior woman. Same for Asha, Osha, and Brienne—they’re women who also happen to know how to fight. We don’t really know if enough about Osha to determine her sexuality, so it’s definitely possible they can go either way with her. That would be OK with me.

    As for other possible LGB characters:
    -I think Vargo Hoat was pretty gay or bi, right?
    -Aren’t there male prostitutes who get sent to the Night’s Watch? I know it doesn’t make them gay if they were forced into it, but maybe
    -Speaking of the Night’s Watch, I bet there are some gay brothers. It must be hard those men to stay away from women for the rest of their life.
    -Xaro Xhoan Daxos – Didn’t Dany notice the way he eyed the boys he kept in his palace?
    -Lady Taena – either bi or lez…
    -The Blackfish: gay
    -Cersei – just curious
    -Dany – bi-curious, needy, or maybe something more? Will she find it in her heart to love another man after the deaths and betrayals? I know there’s speculation that she’ll end up with Jon but the prophecies say she won’t ever bear children… It would be interesting if she became like Queen Elizabeth I (the one who never married or had children so she could focus entirely on her rule)
    -I can see the Sandsnakes as being bi… But again, we don’t know enough about them. Man, I really hope we many seasons because I look forward to the characters in that part of the story. :)

  70. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart: I’m straight and don’t agree with homosexuality. But I was generally ok that George involved such aspects into his books, and that even such characters are not left outside the circle of danger also. No one is safe. If you have the characters blatantly come out of the closet in the series. It changes the interaction between any character with them.

    I don’t think it’s going to be anything close to “blatantly coming out of the closet.” Rather it’ll be the TV series being unshackled from the limitations of POV, allowing the camera to see things that no POV character saw in the books. I’m sure to Westeros at large, Renly will still be “obviously closeted.” Not “out” at all.

  71. Wastrel
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Personally, I’m shipping Arya-Dany. Well, I would be if I were a shipper, but I’m not, so I’m not. And yes, I know that sounds a ridiculous fanboy relationship, but it makes more sense than you might think. It needn’t involve any actual lesbianism, though – the idea of Dany being in a polygamous marriage has been pretty forshadowed, and it could be MFF rather than FMM, particularly if John is The Hero after all, not Dany. I always thought the vibe between John and Arya could turn into something sexual when they were adults, particularly if they’ve not seen each other for a decade and they discover that they’re less closely related than they thought. Plus, Arya has to be important somehow in the end – it’s hard to imagine she was just created to wander around the world killing people while the rest of her family play politics and save the world; plus, Arya+Dany+Someone would provide a great parallel/foreshadowing with Rhaegar’s interpretation of prophecy leading him to Lyanna: Dany being compared so much to Rhaegar (and probably taking his PWWP role), and Arya being compared even more the Lyanna. So at first glance JAD may seem insane, but so far as I can work out it may actually be the most sensible dragon-has-three-heads solution available, apart from the feasible but massively anticlimactic Dany+Randomguy+Randomguy2.
    ((Following that “Rhaegar-Lyanna foreshadows/was a misinterpretation of prophecy regarding the real PWWP relationship” theory, JDQ or ADQ could probably be made to work dramatically, though. But we’re getting off-track here.))

    More seriously, and detaching this from any Arya-Dany thing (as the books have shown that Martin doesn’t think marriage or love have to be about sex, or sex to be about about desire for that matter), if anyone’s going to ‘go gay’ other than established characters and Dany, Arya may be a candidate. In a way, I hope so, not in a fanboyish way, but just out of pity: as a mildly man-hating, dominant, aggressive gamine drawn to masculine roles and contemptuous of traditional feminine ones, it’s sadly hard to see her having a loving relationship with a man in a hidebound, male-dominated society – whereas if she did happen to discover a penchant for Braavosi girls, loving happiness would probably be quite attainable.

    [That said, if the pace really is going to pick up psychotically, with only two more novels to go, there’s really not going to be much time for any new relationships to develop]

  72. Jaeden
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    I am completely angered and offended that the colour indigo has not been given fair and equal representation in your biased and offensive colour scheme. I, for one, will boycot the colours red, orange, yellow, green, blue and purple in protest of this shameful act. Viva la indigo!

  73. mimi
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    -U. S. politics- :gag: —touchy, touchy people on both sides…..

    I don’t mind a gay sceen or two. Not surprised that HBO will ramp it up some (after all, they are hollywood). Just hope it’s not too much….

  74. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    RahBur: I’m very much against adding more sex to the series for the sake of pleasing every sexual orientation out there.

    agree

  75. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Aule,

    I think Jaime is just plain confused about his sexuality. The only woman he’s ever loved was Cersei, and he’s realizing that she isn’t what he thought she was. He’s ashamed that his body responded to Brienne. I wouldn’t be completely surprised if he experimented with men in the future.

    As for Renly/Loras I love them as a couple, and am excited to see more of their relationship on screen. As for gay sex not equaling ratings, I know A LOT of people would are really thrilled about this being included in the show from people of varying sexual orientations.

  76. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    I like what other people have said here.

    Leave real politics the hell out of GoT. Just don’t do it. If you continue…I’ll stop visiting this site. It’s that simple. I don’t have winteriscoming as my homepage because I want to be made fun….ya know? I would clearly identify myself as a Tea Party member, and I’ve met George, more than once. To say he “hates me” as an earlier poster said is absolutely ridiculous. He may not like my politics, but my love for his books is obviously well received. Also, the Tea Party has absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue of homosexuality. NOTHING. There is no relevance here….it actually just shows a good deal of ignorance to assume the two are related.

    But I haven’t read another post that was so inflaming, so I will consider this a mental slip, so to speak. I appreciate what you guys do with this website…and again, I read it every day for a reason.

    As to the gay issue in the books – If you didn’t pick up on Renly and Loras being gay together, you weren’t reading very intently. I thought it was almost a blatantly obvious thing. No, they never said it directly, but the hints were definitely there. I seem to remember when they were talking about Margaery and the moon tea, someone says something directly to the point that Loras isn’t interested in women. But maybe other people can point out better examples.

  77. Stella Maris
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Ok, original comment got caught up in moderation, probably because of the links….so, I will amend it :) Feel free to delete the other post in mod-limbo, WiC.

    I don’t at all mean to encourage the numerous “arm-waivers” around here, but I have to defend FaB here a bit. Even though he shouldn’t need any defense because it’s all a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor, not foot-in-mouth commentary. I apologize to anyone on here that doesn’t want to read political nonsense, in which case you can just merrily skip down to the portion after the line break.

    In response to this claim of Tea Party “homophobia” (using John’s word here, not mine): there are numerous blogs, article etc. hosted on the Tea Party’s most prominent political site regarding homosexuality and related issues. Just google “homosexuality site:teapartypatriots.org” (since they don’t have a site search of their own) to see. The articles include:

    – “Homosexuality — Choice or Nature’s selection?”
    – “Homosexual Agenda Could Care Less About Marriage”
    – “Homosexuals Have Equal Rights to Marriage” [my note: that is, marriage with a member of the opposite sex in order to procreate, because that’s what marriage is all about y’all]
    – “How The Gay Agenda Will Affect Our Future (Why Homosexual Issues Work Against Conservatives)”

    It’s no secret that many (the majority?) of Tea Parties support “defending traditional family values”, which is a nice way of saying “homosexuals should not have the legal right to marry or be able to adopt children.”

    So yes…regardless of whatever you think, more than just a few members of the Tea Party find the “homosexual lifestyle” and “homosexual agenda” repugnant and are therefore opposed to such things. I do acknowledge that there are members that wish that it were a non-issue (namely Libertarians). However, the prominent hosting of such discourse on its official website can be easily interpreted as a tacit endorsement of this view by the majority of the party itself. Indeed, by all appearances the party embraces both members and political candidates that very vocally hold these views and wish to run on a political platform that addresses these issues.

    THAT, my friends, is where the joke is. Nowhere did FaB say “homophobic” – he merely referenced the public perception of Tea Party members’ less-than-favorable view on homosexuals. So yeah, whether or not you disagree with FaB’s blithe comment or were offended by it or will cancel your HBO subscription over it (lol!), what he said does have social merit.
    —————————————————————————————————————————

    That said, the Blackfish being gay never had occured to me, but I can see it now. In a very James Buchanan way, of course. It will be interesting to see if George takes that anywhere.

    What about Littlefinger? I have always felt dubious about his leanings. Yes, he has this lifelong unrequited love thing with Cat, but apart from that there seems to be a suspicious lack of information about his extracurricular activities. He dresses in a very sharp and fashionable way, obviously has charisma, and makes several off-the-cuff remarks about whores to Ned. Throughout reading the books I couldn’t help but think there was something more going on there. Littlefinger is the sort of guy that doesn’t strike me to live in self-deprivation because of an unrequited love, however he is the kind of person to live very privately. And how does he manage to weasel ridiculous amounts of loaned gold from the great houses and neighboring nations anyway? Seems to me like he “knows” all the right people… ;)

    I would not be so fast to label Dacey Mormont a “butch” lesbian – we do have Brienne afterall, who is (as far as we know) a straight female who is only challenging social norms. Dacey, much like Brienne, was compelled to (literally) put herself in a man’s shoes, albeit for different reasons. I think the jury is still out on that one.

    I am inclined to agree with other people that bisexual exploration was much less taboo in Westeros as it is nowadays. I don’t think it was openly accepted or even encouraged like in the Roman empire, but I don’t think people would be burned for it either.

  78. Sly
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Oh, hey…Martin confirmation. I had not seen that before. I always thought Loras must be gay, but I thought he was in the same boat as Brienne, so to speak. Wow. This totally changes my perception of Margaery.

  79. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    And as to the Blackfish

    I don’t think he’s gay. I really, really don’t. I think his refusal to marry had far more to do with his father’s insistence that he do so, rather than his sexuality. He’s a loner. After 40 years of being his own master, this is just how he prefers to live now…he doesn’t want a wife telling him what to do and when to do it. I feel like he made that perfectly clear when talking to Cat prior to the arrangement between Edmure and the Frey’s.

  80. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    agree    

    Plus it doesn’t add to the story by adding in more time devoted to sex scenes in each episode.

  81. Jaeden
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    Plus it doesn’t add to the story by adding in more time devoted to sex scenes in each episode.    

    They kinda did that in The Tudors (Only seen the first season so far, can’t speak for the rest). Seemed like there was one or more sex scenes in pretty much every episode, regardless of whether or not it added to the story. (Usually it did, but in several cases there wasn’t much point to it)

    I like it when it adds to the plot, and moves the story forward. But if it’s in there just for the sake of having it in there then what’s the point? If the producers/writers of the show feel they need to add a Loras/Renly scene and it fits in with the plot and all, I’m all for it.

    George was more subtle with it in the books, just hinting at it sometimes blatantly, sometimes not. That worked for the books for sure, as most people reading it intently enough will catch it (at least on their second read as I did). It may work beter in a visual medium to have their relationship more blatant.

    Robert Jordan always used to say RAFO (read and find out) when asked questions about his books he didn’t want to answer (yet). I say WAFO. Watch and Find Out.

  82. GrandmaFunk
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    so…the only reason ppl think Blackfish would be gay is because he didn’t want to marry?

  83. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    FaBihoff, I just caught that… what is a “a bear man’s dream”? I have a vague idea about what a bear man is, and they are pretty masculine; what would they do with a macho (judging from Brynden’s dialogue with Jaime) warrior who might cut them in two if he didn’t return their affection? (Unless it involves the Mormonts. In that case I’d bet my money on a bear lady’s dream.) :D

    Most of all, do I want to know? ;)

    Shinyteapot:
    I really don’t want to find out either way about the Blackfish though.His sexuality is not relevant to the story (unless of course this changes later on) and I like that he retains a bit of mystery- the reader/viewer can interpret things as they see fit.Being gay wouldn’t be enough to stop him marrying anyway- many nobles marry for political rather than romantic reasons.Maybe his reason for not marrying is that he has a secret girlfriend or boyfriend- or he’s waiting for the right person, or someone broke his heart, or someone he loved died- any of these could be true regardless of his sexuality.

    We were separated at birth!

    Romulocks:
    And as to the BlackfishI don’t think he’s gay.I really, really don’t. I think his refusal to marry had far more to do with his father’s insistence that he do so, rather than his sexuality.He’s a loner.After 40 years of being his own master, this is just how he prefers to live now…he doesn’t want a wife telling him what to do and when to do it. I feel like he made that perfectly clear when talking to Cat prior to the arrangement between Edmure and the Frey’s.

    We too!

    PS: Team Indigo.

  84. Nigel Bradley
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Personally, I think that the jab at a political party in the original post was not needed. Especially in a topic where it is clear that a mature look at sexuality is called for. All it does is get those strongly for that party upset, and those strongly against the party riled up into insult mode for the party goers getting upset. Let’s be more responsible in the future.

    As to the sexuality of the characters… I think its more fun to have the “read between the lines” thing with Loras & Renly as that was how it was written in the book. As someone who enjoys analyzing literature, I enjoy when things are not overt, and make readers / viewers find something different on a second reading / viewing.

  85. Matt
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    Jim,

    Actually, most Tea Party members do not support gay rights. From Wikipedia: “82% do not believe that gay and lesbian couples should have the legal right to marry, and that about 52% believed that “lesbians and gays have too much political power.” Unfortunately you can’t pick and choose when you belong to an organization like the “Tea Party.”

  86. Strider
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    John,

    If you dont like what he says, dont read it. He doesnt actually work for HBO. Leave the guy alone.

  87. Putter
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    It is not hidden that the candidates who are running for office under the banner of teh teaparty are almost exclusively against gay marriage and gay rights. So while you can say you are not homophobic, and do not agree with it all you want, while voting for people who are actively working against gay rights, your words won’t hold much weight.

    Actions speak MUCH louder than words. If you are so offended by being percieved as a homophobe, perhaps you should DO something to counteract that perception, such as going to one of your teaparty rallys and voicing your strong gay-friendly beliefs.

  88. Rob O Sevens
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Fuck Indigo

  89. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Matt: Jim, Actually, most Tea Party members do not support gay rights. From Wikipedia: “82% do not believe that gay and lesbian couples should have the legal right to marry, and that about 52% believed that “lesbians and gays have too much political power.” Unfortunately you can’t pick and choose when you belong to an organization like the “Tea Party.”  Quote  Reply

    I believe that poll was the HuffingtonPost one right? Hardly an unbiased source. Also, if you remember the 08 elections, both candidates said they were against gay marriage (that includes Obama).

    I think Nigel said it best:

    Personally, I think that the jab at a political party in the original post was not needed. Especially in a topic where it is clear that a mature look at sexuality is called for. All it does is get those strongly for that party upset, and those strongly against the party riled up into insult mode for the party goers getting upset. Let’s be more responsible in the future.

  90. Herr Fick
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    I’m straight and don’t agree with homosexuality.

    Hilarious!

    Nobody asks for your agreement, dear Sir.

  91. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    @ Putter
    WHAT? You are mistaken sir.

    Example: Rand Paul – (R) Senator – Kentucky and Tea Party GOLDEN BOY
    Is against legislation to make gay marriage legal, because he doesn’t think the government should be making these decisions at all. According to Paul himself, he thinks it should be left up to “churches, synagogues and rabbi’s.” Just because someone votes against legislation doesn’t make them against the issue.

    I find myself in this same libertarian viewpoint.
    Personally I’m not gay. I think medically speaking it is a horrible idea, and there are many studies to support my theory that male homosexual sex can lead to severe medical issues and possibly death, NOT joking. But I also see the side that says you can’t help who you’re attracted to. I have gay friends, and I get that they quite literally LIKE guys. So I would consider myself pro-choice…about the gay issue. It’s not my life, you can do with your’s whatever you damn well please, but I don’t want my government actively telling me what I can or can’t do on almost any issue, unless it deals with somehow physically PROTECTING me.

    But the tea party is about fiscal conservation. It has nothing to do with social issues. Sure, some people show up at the rally’s who are anti-abortion, anti-obama, anti-gay, anti-WHATEVER. There are people who are against virtually everything. But the reason we gather, is because we agree on the Tea Party ideals of FISCAL CONSERVATION, which is the only party platform of the Tea Party, smaller government, and less spending. It’s fairly simple.

    It’s not smaller government, less spending and no gays.

  92. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    and I apologize for “male homosexual sex”, that is semi redundant. I didn’t edit…

  93. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Herr Fick:
    Hilarious!Nobody asks for your agreement, dear Sir.    

    In full context of my response. It says a lot about my opinion.

    I’m glad I can amuse you. What trick can I perform for you next. Maybe saw a man in half. Would you like to volunteer. I’m practicing and need the experience before I go on stage.

  94. Ryan E
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    When I think of the Tea Party, I don’t think of homophobia… just ignorance or current events and idiocy.

  95. Ruckus
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    The Tea Party is a joke.

    It may not be inherently Homophobic by ideology, but it’s ignorant ranks are clearly packed with Homophobes. And it clearly doesn’t represent America only a lunatic fringe.

  96. reedgirl
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Sly: Wow. This totally changes my perception of Margaery.

    Kinda makes Margaery/Loras/Renly a trio of slippery schemers, if you think about it. MT has been riding the Queen-of-Westeros Express on the backs of 3 different kings now. I find that very impressive.

    Go Marge!

  97. Herr Fick
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    In full context of my response. It says a lot about my opinion. I’m glad I can amuse you. What trick can I perform for you next. Maybe saw a man in half. Would you like to volunteer. I’m practicing and need the experience before I go on stage.    

    You are babbling, Sir.
    The fact of the matter is that the sentence I quoted implies the notion that homosexuality is an issue that people can agree or disagree with. This notion is ridiculous, since homosexuality is not an opinion or some other kind of proposition with which it would be possible to agree or disagree. Your disagreement is as ridiculous as it would be to disagree with people preferring fruit to vegetables or to disagree with lions eating antelopes.
    That you, Sir, nevertheless made your meaningless disagreement known to us shows that you are either a jester or an idiot – both of which are hilarious, as I wrote above.

  98. RahBur
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel: – the idea of Dany being in a polygamous marriage has been pretty forshadowed, and it could be MFF rather than FMM, particularly if John is The Hero after all, not Dany.

    I may have to go back and re-read some chapters. I dont recall any foreshadowing that might suggest a polygamous marriage for Dany. But I’m with you on the possibility that there is to be *something* between Jon and Dany by storys’ end – lovers, or enemies?

    As for this ….

    I always thought the vibe between John and Arya could turn into something sexual when they were adults, particularly if they’ve not seen each other for a decade and they discover that they’re less closely related than they thought.

    This boggled my mind! Never in a million years would I have thought such a thing, lol ! And, really, I HOPE this never becomes the case. :) Jon and Arya have such a sweet relationship, as they accept each other for who the other truly is.

    Besides, while I wouldnt classify myself as a “shipper”, I think GRRM has plans for Arya and Gendry, though, much like with Jon and Dany, I dont know to what extent.

  99. Goldenbrown
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    I welcome the way HBO is dealing with Loras/Renly relationship. It will avoid all the “they are, they are not” discussion amog the viewers, that will ended up being fruitless. Their “love story” (if you alloe me to put it in that way) is important to the whole context of the story and cannot be pushed under the rug. From that, you can understand more clearly the drive of some characters or some events.

    Showing in a matter of fact way will be necessary, since it’s clear that a lot of people did not grasp the clues. And what beautiful clues GRRM gave us. It was a master work, beautifully constructed clues along the books. I, for one, did not get it at first. AGoT was full of them. All across it. But I just came to understand it in a second read, after reading the other three books. By ACoK, the idea starts forming more clearly. By ASoS, it’s undeniable.

    I don’t blame people for not getting it. LGBT is, sometimes, not on the everyday life of some people, unfortunetely. So, it requires a bit of gaydar practice ;)

    My humble opinion, of course.

    Thumbs up to HBO!!!

  100. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    But back to the original post

    I think the Renly/Loras aspect, needs to be shown. But in the same veiled, nondescript way that readers feel when first absorbing book two. I don’t need a raunchy sex scene to tell me that Loras and Renly are meeting in secret to do the nasty whenever they aren’t doing important things that the would-be king does.

    Personally speaking, I would like it to be very hint hint secretive, slight suggestions, until possibly around the Tournament at Bitterbridge, or just before Renly is killed. The camera follows a serving girl as she walks past the partially opened flap of Renly’s tent. We look inside, and see a barebacked Loras on top of an dark figure that viewers will obviously know for Renly, and then ever so quickly, the scene is over. Just a flash. That will help to really solidify Loras’ response to the situation, which is to go ape-shit wild and slaughter Robar Royce as well as Ser Emmon Cuy.

  101. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Herr Fick:
    You are babbling, Sir.
    The fact of the matter is that the sentence I quoted implies the notion that homosexuality is an issue that people can agree or disagree with. This notion is ridiculous, since homosexuality is not an opinion or some other kind of proposition with which it would be possible to agree or disagree. Your disagreement is as ridiculous as it would be to disagree with people preferring fruit to vegetables or to disagree with lions eating antelopes.
    That you, Sir, nevertheless made your meaningless disagreement known to us shows that you are either a jester or an idiot – both of which are hilarious, as I wrote above.    

    Honestly I think you just like to read my comments. You sure as hell seem to pick them out.

  102. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    And I also know exactly when I came to the decision that Loras and Renly were something.

    Renly asks Loras to accompany him to his tent and quote “help him pray.” The idea of Renly as a pious man is ridiculous…he is anything but. So when you say you are “going to take the trash out” or “dropping the kids off at the pool” you are really doing something else entirely, typically a private or deviant subject. Why would Renly need to lie to anyone? about anything?

    The answer is pretty in-your-face obvious.

  103. Herr Fick
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    Honestly I think you just like to read my comments. You sure as hell seem to pick them out.    

    Of course! Most of them are rather funny.

  104. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    @ Ruckus
    That “fringe” is pretty damn big.

    Sounds more like a fairway to me. (I’m so punny)

  105. BryanP
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    Not supporting gay marriage has nothing to do with gay rights. Marriage is not a right, there are stipulations of all kinds based on your religion and/or government.

    And Ruckus, you need to check your facts. The Tea Party (I’m not a member, btw) has a higher percentage of college graduates than the general population. That fact is from a poll. Here’s a link…

    Doesn’t it tell you something that in order for a certain President to get elected he had to cater to the young (18-22) voters who really don’t know how things work yet? And that their turn out on election day was necessary to win?

    So basically, Ruckus, you and the others who posted in a similar vain are the ignorant ones. Though I shouldn’t expect the masses of sheep to actually do their own research, but instead I should expect them to just go with what it popular to think.

  106. reedgirl
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Romulocks,

    I figured it out when they started saying that Margaery would never get pregnant with Renly in her bed. It took me a while, but I got there eventually! After loong time.

    (I have the opposite of gaydar – gayfog, or homoblindness, or something like that. I am usually gobsmacked when someone tells me they’re bi/homosexual.)

  107. BryanP
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    BryanP,

    Link won’t go through, just google “Tea Party Education poll” and click on the NYT story.

  108. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Blah blah Tea Party

    Can we please not discuss the insanity that is American politics?

  109. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Want to discuss Canadian politics Lex? lol :P

  110. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Steven Harper’s dead eyes blah blah blah…

  111. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    BryanP,

    Are you proposing that the US raises the age to vote to 23 then?

  112. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Phoenix_torn: Lex,
    Want to discuss Canadian politics Lex? lol     

    Please no, that’s even worse.

  113. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    We’ll bore everyone out of the comments section.

  114. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    I actually said “Blah blah Tea Party yawn” but the yawn disappeared because it was between brackets.

    Why discuss the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, etc., when we have more than enough insanity to go around in the politics of Westeros? Speaking of Palin, who is the Sarah Palin of Westeros? Cersei? Catelyn? A combination of the two? Maybe she’s a Mormont (she’s a “mama grizzly” after all, no?).

  115. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of Stephen Harper and his dead eyes, maybe he should play Roose Bolton?

  116. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    NICE LEX! Zing

    I would say clearly Maege Mormont. She lives in the furthest northwest region possible in Westeros without being over the wall, she would prefer to fight rather than discuss useless terms, and Jorah Mormont is about as close as you can come to a down-syndrome baby. He is half a tard regardless.

    Too far?

  117. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Speaking of Stephen Harper and his dead eyes, maybe he should play Roose Bolton?    

    *Spit Take* New Game–Casting world leaders as ASOIAF characters.

  118. Aule
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    My Jaime+Loras theory has a big stone on the way to confirmation: Loras is about to die from his wounds, and usually GRRM kills whoever has a chance to die (except for the Stark children and Dany). However, if he thinks this development is important for the story (as in part of a sort of redemption for Jaime, which seems plausible at this point) somehow he will save Loras. This could happen now that Cersei is imprisoned and Margery has a very good chance to take command of the government. Margery could send her maesters to look after Loras and somehow save him.

    As to Jaime’s view of Loras as a sort of pupil with whom he wants to share his experience, it is exactly, imo, the kind of interest which could spark the fire. There are many different ways in which to love a person, and this is one of them, now as if this develops into a sexual attraction, I think it is very possible, considering how both are obviously extremely attractive men.

  119. Stevieboy
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    to all you guys ranting about this political points of views … isn’t their enough aggro in the world? Yeah OK from an American point of view perhaps FaBs comments were a bit to close to the bone … but geez man take in the spirit it was meant! I was getting really worried that we were just going to end up ripping metaphorical sherds from each other … right up until i read this post:

    Jaeden:

    I am completely angered and offended that the colour indigo has not been given fair and equal representation in your biased and offensive colour scheme. I, for one, will boycot the colours red, orange, yellow, green, blue and purple in protest of this shameful act. Viva la indigo!

    I just about wet myself laughing!! I to will join the boycott against red, orange, yellow, green, and purple. However, Jaeden, i think you went too far with blue! Blue always gets cast in a bad light and tarred with same same brush as purple. Blue is your freind! :-D

  120. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    Aule,

    I would say that Jaime is more likely to continue to be drawn closer to Brienne. He’s already started to see her in a different light, probably because his newfound realizations about himself has put him on a path where her character and honor is something to strive for.

    As for Jaime and Loras being attractive men, I doubt Loras looks very attractive after a burning oil shower.

  121. furrever
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    I’ve been reading this blog since the beginning, visit several times a day, and read many of the comments. While I wasn’t personally offended by FaBio’s jest at the Tea Party’s expense (it seemed fairly harmless to me and we all know FaBio is a prankster anyways), I can understand how others might be.

    What’s most unfortunate, however, are the many discourteous comments being made by those on both sides of the political spectrum–comments being made in response to FaBio’s ill-advised (albeit likely innocent) decision to make a political reference, regardless of how innocent he likely thought it was.

    WiC has always shown good sense in his writing style and the “standards” of this site. As the site owner, I trust that WiC’s better judgment will prevail and that he, FaB, and HMR will all agree to make this the last time politics are referenced in a post. Which is something that I think we all can agree would be for the best.

  122. Aule
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Tywin’s Bastard,

    Then I missed something, because I thought Brienne was killed :p But if not, then you are right. It is another possibility.

  123. DH87
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel: Personally, I’m shipping Arya-Dany. Well, I would be if I were a shipper, but I’m not, so I’m not.

    Nooooooo! Arya + Gendry = HEA ruling Westeros

    She can do all his thinking for him (er, offer gentle female guidance) and he brings the Baratheon legitimacy.

  124. Ben
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Is it just me, or are the people asking to leave the politics out of Game of Thrones being slightly ironic? I mean considering the subject matter of the books is all about political backstabing? No? Ah well.

    As far as gay relationships go, if you can handle the twincest in the first episode, you can probably handle homosexuality. I noticed the allusions to the Renly-Loras relationship early on, and they didn’t bother me then and won’t bother me when they air on HBO next year.

    The only thing that irked me about Renly was the rainbow colored capes. It feels like a blatant shout-out to a real world political group, and as many have voiced, politics should stay out of ASoIaF. (Still not ironic?) Another commenter said it felt lame and I have to agree. Winter pointed out that GRRM said it was coincidental, which I have no problems believing. But incidentally lame still feels lame.

    In language, it is important that we be clear with what we mean. If Martin wasn’t giving a shout out to the gay community with the Rainbow Guard, and it’s not a plot point, then I think D&D should remove it.

    The same is true for FaB. When I read the Tea Party line, I interpreted it as a veiled jab at the party itself–though I found it neither offensive or funny. A lot of people are taking it that way. FaB, if you meant that sentence to be read like that, then leave it, because that’s your opinion. However, if you didn’t mean it like that, then you should change it just as you would change a spelling error. I would hate for you to raise the trolls from their dens over a miscommunication.

  125. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    He could be romantic and stubborn and gay.

  126. ducky
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    I thought it was strongly implied from the beginning that Renly and Loras are gay. I do not find it either shocking or a big revelation.

    Funnily or ironically one of the few things that really shocked me in regards to the characters sexual lives was that Jaime Lannister is actually monogamous and had never been with anyone but Cersei. I did not expect that at all. I am glad he finally gave up on her because apart from the incest angle that woman is a user and poison.

  127. Mratfink
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Tywin’s Bastard,

    Does anyone else think that Loras has not been injured and that the “assault” on Dragonstone never actually happened? I mean the fleet is mainly from his father’s liegemen, and he wants to take them to defend the coasts from the Iron Islands. It would be fairly easy for him to control the messages sent back to King’s Landing, and a debilitating injury would be the type of excuse that prevents him from returning to King’s Landing quickly. Plus Margaery certainly seems to recover awful quickly from her sorrow and while that could be putting a brave face on it, her assurance at his well-being suggests to me that something else was going on.
    My guess is that the next time we see Loras it is fighting Iron Islanders off the west coast of Westeros.

  128. furrever
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Ben: Is it just me, or are the people asking to leave the politics out of Game of Thrones being slightly ironic? I mean considering the subject matter of the books is all about political backstabing? No? Ah well.

    I’m all for discussions on Westerosi politics. Just not American politics. :-)

    And this comes from a guy who really enjoys debating politics. I just don’t want to do it here. WiC.net is my safe place.

  129. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel,

    I’m glad you mentioned Arya, actually, because she was a character I always wondered about. I thought it would be interesting if, when she was older, she turned out to be a lesbian.

  130. Blackfyre
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    Nooooooo! Arya + Gendry = HEA ruling WesterosShe can do all his thinking for him (er, offer gentle female guidance) and he brings the Baratheon legitimacy.    

    We don’t need Baratheon legitimacy when there are Targaryen’s running around. Just a matter of time before they meet up…

  131. Critical Geek
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Divisive jokes and hype machines don’t mix. Ah well, stuff happens.

  132. Romulocks
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    @ Mratfink

    holy hell. that seems VERY likely. I’ve noticed a semi-continual pattern that if there isn’t a POV character at/near/in the event; it, more than likely, never took place. Maybe someone can cite an instance to disprove me. Love that input.

    My question using that stream of logic is what does House Tyrell stand to gain by lying that openly? I mean…Margery has to pretend to weep, and the maesters had to be bought off and etc etc etc. What is the overall goal of the deception I guess is my question.
    I really never believed he was injured permanently when I read it. It just seemed…stupid. But Loras has done stupid things before (Horse in heat).

  133. Anthony
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    You’re right…it’s not like this is a private blog site or anything.

  134. Aule
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    At some point the thought also crossed my mind, but I don’t think Arya will turn lesbian from the way she simply hates Sansa so much, considering that Sansa is the kind of girl who encompasses many “female” attributes.

    It is strange that she hasn’t showed any kind of attraction for anyone though, seeing as how she’s not a little girl anymore (I would guess she is in the pre-puberty years in which most children start to show an interest in relationships, in fact I think puberty is about to strike her any moment now). But at some point she did show a small amount of interest in Gendry. So that’s why I kind of already ruled out the possibility of her being a lesbian.

  135. Dash
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    First of all:

    INDIGO RULES!

    Second:

    Sorry for my awful english, i´m working on it

    Third:

    Im a spanish reader, and read the first 3 volumes in spanish… I understand the relationship of Renly and Loras pretty early… for sure when renly is with brienne wearing the armour, I was sure about it… it hapenned to others readers in spanish too?

    And Four (for my loved trolls out there)

    The thre musketers that have this blog rules almost so much as Indigo, and anybody that threat them or brive them or want them to take away any word they have say by other means that a calm and relaxed chat is a FASCIST. This guys are doing a great favor to HBO and Game of Thrones, and not the oposite.

    (And I support them and will keep reading, now more often than before)

    Oh, and please, this people sugesting that homosexuality is a disease… please, dont say that in a San Francisco reunion of Bears XD (by the way, Bear are masculine haired gay men, and some of them too like other masculine and haired).

    And yes, this tea party thing is looking just like other USAins…(I think that i feel enogh the trolls with this)

    Oh, yes… one thing…

    Its a joke!

    And sure you can check your glove golven award ceremony for check what a joke is…

    Or the fact that until Obama USA never had a global healt care system, when Cuba has one… that is another good one…

  136. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    ducky:Funnily or ironically one of the few things that really shocked me in regards to the characters sexual lives was that Jaime Lannister is actually monogamous and had never been with anyone but Cersei. I did not expect that at all. I am glad he finally gave up on her because apart from the incest angle that woman is a user and poison.    

    I’m with you.

  137. Ballista
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    My $.02 about the ACTUAL topic, not this other nonsense:

    We all know that being an HBO series , it gives a green light to be able to have significantly more violence, sex, etc than a regular network would have. My hope, however, is that they use these as GRRM does in the books: To paint a picture of a unique and interesting world full of some very horrific things. I don’t think GRRM is gratuitous when he includes sex in the story. I hope HBO does not take this green light and go too far and have sex for the sake of it. It needs to be used to advance the story or serve some plot/story/character purpose, not just to tittilate the masses. This goes for hetero/homosexual encounters. I don’t mind if Loras/Renly scenes are in there … but it shouldn’t be gratuitous.

  138. Mouk
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    I almost finished AFfC (60 pages to go) and you guys gave me some not-major-but-damn-close spoilers, I can’t imagine how AGoT, AcoK and ASoS readers are feeling right now if they followed your comments. This entire thread (especially the Tea Derp Party part) should be blackshaded!!

    On-Topic: I can’t say I totally agree with adding some splicit scenes (with or without sex) about issues that are treated in a subtle way in the books; but it’s true that without the POV there are nuances that are going to be lost. If HBO was to ask me for an intermediate solution, I don’t know what’d I say.

    Also,

    Blackfyre:
    We don’t need Baratheon legitimacy when there are Targaryen’s running around.Just a matter of time before they meet up…    

    Your comment made me think of something: did any of you ever imagined a Arya+Gendry vs. Dany+Jon? I mean, they are the legitimate vs. the illegitimate heirs of the royal families…And there’s a Stark kid in both sides. How awesome would that finale be? Also, how sad?

    PS: I see I’m not the only spaniard in here!

  139. Mouk
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and I forgot to say that I agree with all of those who are against putting some sex just for the sake of getting more viewers. If it’s not in the books, I don’t want to see it.

    …okay, I’m going to enjoy (man, I’m SO going to) the Dany/Doreah scene, but that’s no the point.

  140. tyfighter77
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Romulocks: Leave real politics the hell out of GoT. Just don’t do it. If you continue…I’ll stop visiting this site. It’s that simple.

    Me too. And I’ve been an everyday visitor for 3 years. FaBio, take a cue from WiC and tone – it – down. Often you make me chuckle, but this time you’re trying to hard. Where’s your filter?

  141. Jason
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    seriously, out of all the drama here, the only absolutely ridiculous thing I’ve read is this:
    “it isn’t the group as a whole, which, as of Nov 2nd, appears to currently be a majority of Americans, well over 100 million people in anycase.”
    I’m not sure where this “fact” came from, but please substantiate if possible. Tea Party support is not near 100 million people, nor anywhere close to a majority of Americans. Give me a break.

  142. feyrband
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    i just hope that they don’t spend more time on the relationships than is called for. that’s how it felt this last season of true blood in any case. lafayette was one of my favorite characters and him and jesus seemed to work well together. lafayette finally got to take a break from baby-sitting tara for once and have someone comfort him instead.

    now i admittedly have not read the books, but once they started getting into the witch/warlock/vamp blood dreams to me personally it was just bad tv and really felt like they were reaching. i support that in tv and especially cable tv you’ve been seeing more gay characters in prominent roles, it’s just that sometimes it feels unnatural. (the way they’re implemented)

  143. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Dash: First of all:INDIGO RULES!Second:Sorry for my awful english, i´m working on itThird:Im a spanish reader, and read the first 3 volumes in spanish… I understand the relationship of Renly and Loras pretty early… for sure when renly is with brienne wearing the armour, I was sure about it… it hapenned to others readers in spanish too? And Four (for my loved trolls out there)The thre musketers that have this blog rules almost so much as Indigo, and anybody that threat them or brive them or want them to take away any word they have say by other means that a calm and relaxed chat is a FASCIST. This guys are doing a great favor to HBO and Game of Thrones, and not the oposite.(And I support them and will keep reading, now more often than before)Oh, and please, this people sugesting that homosexuality is a disease… please, dont say that in a San Francisco reunion of Bears XD (by the way, Bear are masculine haired gay men, and some of them too like other masculine and haired).And yes, this tea party thing is looking just like other USAins…(I think that i feel enogh the trolls with this) Oh, yes… one thing…Its a joke!And sure you can check your glove golven award ceremony for check what a joke is…Or the fact that until Obama USA never had a global healt care system, when Cuba has one… that is another good one…  Quote  Reply

    You think cuba has a good healthcare system?

    http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

    That is all. Didn’t want someone to call you on that? Shouldn’t have brought it up.

  144. Avalanche3319
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Gotta agree the Tea Party jab was tasteless and inappropriate for this site. You had to know it would be offensive to some and would cause a bunch of political bickering. If I wanted to hear someones holier-than-thou thoughts on politics I’d read GRRM’s blog. Please leave it at the door here…

  145. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Jason: seriously, out of all the drama here, the only absolutely ridiculous thing I’ve read is this:“it isn’t the group as a whole, which, as of Nov 2nd, appears to currently be a majority of Americans, well over 100 million people in anycase.”I’m not sure where this “fact” came from, but please substantiate if possible. Tea Party support is not near 100 million people, nor anywhere close to a majority of Americans. Give me a break.  Quote  Reply

    Polls done by CBS and NYT put 1/3rd of Americans strongly in support of the tea party, which would be 100 million. 300 million / 3 = 100 million.

    Elections done by the government on November 2nd resulted in an avalanch of wins for candidates who preached Tea Party supported policies. In case you didn’t notice, it was kind of a big deal. Even if you don’t believe polls, you’ve got an election to look at as well.

  146. shagnasty
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    I hear tell that the opening secne of season 2 is gonna be the ghost of Renley tossing Strong Bulwas’s salad… with grape jelly.

  147. Mouk
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Ok, I know how to end with this: a single combat. Sides, choose your champions.

  148. Emma
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    I thought the Renly/Loras relationship was really quite obvious, and I’ve only read the series once so far. (Yes, I know! But I only got into it last year, so cut me some slack).
    I’m glad the gay relationships will get more screentime, especially the R/L one, as I love that Loras is such a strong person and not your stereotypical effeminate gay man.
    That being said, I would love even more if there was a character who was asexual (not just spurned in love and then scared of relationships, but honest to goodness asexual). I’m asexual, and we’re even more under-represented on TV, or hell, in any form of fiction, than the LGBT community.

  149. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    feyrband,

    I don’t think the superfluity and awkwardness of that storyline has anything to do with whether those characters are homosexual or heterosexual though. To me it just seemed out of place and like it didn’t tie in particularly well with the main plot. That said, part of my feelings toward those scenes is likely because I just don’t like Jesus all that much as a character. Lafayette is awesome, but it seems as though they don’t know what to do with the character.
    I think it would have been more fun if Eric had made him a vampire (which, incidentally, was what I thought had happened, and then was extremely confused when he wasn’t) .

    No, uh, getting back to GoT for a second.
    I’ve been pretty vocal about the fact that I think adding too many sex scenes to the show could go badly, but the LorasxRenly scene was never one of the ones I was worried about. Because none of the Baratheon brothers (or Loras, for that matter) have POV chapters, they are some of the characters I feel will benefit most from additional scenes, etc. I feel like, correspondingly, Renly and Loras be more at the forefront than they appeared in the books (which isn’t a bad thing). When Renly dies in the second book/season, it’s one of the most tragic points in the series, both because of Renly’s loss, but also Stannis’s. One thing I wonder about though, and I know this will sound like it’s coming out of the left field, is if Renly is really dead. There was something in ACoK’s, I can’t remember what, that made me think that it was possible that those killed by Melisandre/Stannis’s shadow, weren’t truly dead. I remember my suspicions being aroused by something GRRM said, about some characters seeming dead who weren’t, etc, or seeing things they thought meant someone was dead when they weren’t. Sorry about the lack of links/references to confirm that, btw. It’s obviously EXTREMELY hypothetical, and I can’t remember exactly what it was that made me consider the possibility. Definitely not saying I completely buy into it, but it would be kind of cool.

  150. Shera
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Can we please not call it “sexual preference”? The term is pretty offensive, as to many it denotes choice.

  151. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    *now :/ Typing fail.

  152. Steve the Pirate
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    FaB is funny, don’t go censoring him. I’m pretty sure this site won’t collapse if a few overly sensitive people storm off and stop posting. I’m also pretty sure those people will still lurk and read, or post under other names out of embarrassment.

    Dacey Mormont is not gay. She was crushing on one of the guys at the wedding and wanting to dance with him. She could in theory be bi, but then so could any character as long as they’re not otherwise stated.
    Renly and Loras were clearly a couple, confirmed by Loras’s blushes and mention if “praying” together before the battle. GRRM hasn’t ruined anything by confirming it- it was there in the story to see.

  153. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Mratfink,

    Yes, I tend to doubt every big event that takes place far from any POV, like Loras, Davos etc. Still it would be nice if bad things happens now and then, even when it’s not in focus.

  154. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Okay, gotta chime in here.

    First, the fact that there are apparently several members of this site who either are Tea Party supporters or even have gone to a rally or two, and yet still love these books and acknowledge that there are gay characters in them, characters they like, should prove that the Tea Party is not at its core a homophobic group. I’m sure there are homophobes that attend, just as I’m sure you’ll find homophobes at the DNC’s or just about anywhere. Small minds still exist on both sides of the court. Like many have pointed out, Obama’s official stance on gay marriage is that he is against it. Many leftists I know have told me that they are sure he’s not really against it, but had to say he was in order to get elected. Okay, assuming you’re correct, what does that say about America? That most Americans are against gay marriage.

    I agree with BryanP; marriage in general is not a right. It’s not in the bill of rights and nowhere in the Constitution does it state that marriage is a basic human right. Just like brothers and sisters can’t marry, or an adult cannot marry a child, two minors cannot get married, and even some HETEROSEXUAL OF-AGE UNRELATED PEOPLE are refused marriage, gay men and women cannot marry each other. There are economic reasons why they shouldn’t, either. For one, they cannot produce children. They can adopt, yes, but that’s not producing them. “But what about straight couples who can’t conceive?” They may not be able to, but they’re still designed to. And there are still procedures they can try in order to actually conceive. But two gay men or two gay women will NEVER produce a child without an outside partner of the opposite sex. In other words, no reason for the government to legally recognize their union.

    BUT!!! They can’t help that they’re attracted to the same sex, and as far as I’m concerned as long as it doesn’t intrude upon others’ rights, they can do whatever they want. The government legalizing gay marriage does intrude on the Constitutional right to freedom of worship, since multiple religions, INCLUDING ISLAM, THE LEFT’S CURRENT FAVORITE RELIGION, call homosexuality a sin. If it becomes legal, what’s to stop gay men and women from suing pastors who won’t officiate at their wedding based on their religious beliefs? So…pastors would be able to get sued for practicing rights guaranteed them in the Constitution. How is this fair? Oh, and if you’re against religion…that’s just too bad. It exists, it has existed since the beginning of time, and it’s not going anywhere. If you feel it should be outlawed, just remember that your opinion is just that; YOUR opinion. It would appear your house is made of glass and you’re throwing stones.

    Homosexuals have the same rights I do: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, they can speak freely, organize peacefully in public, worship freely, be free from unlawful searches, receive a fair trial, and so on and so on. They can serve in the military, and guess what? I’m against DADT, and so are many Tea Partiers and right-wingers, including notorious right-wing internet entrepreneur Andrew Breitbart. They can even find CONSENTING pastors to perform a church wedding for them, and in many states can now get a civil union license which does the same thing a marriage license does.

    And I’m not trying to stop them. No one is, especially not the Tea Party. Why would organizations like GOProud ally themselves with the Tea Party if they were nothing but homophobes?

    BTW; If the Tea Party is nothing but a lunatic fringe of society, explain Allen West, Daniel Webster, Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Ken Buck, Anna Little, Jeff Landry and the other Tea Party candidates that won. I mean, what got the most press was Christine O’Donnell’s loss, because the MSM only gave face time to the lesser TP Candidates, but a huge majority of the recently elected Governors, Congressmen and Representatives from the GOP were all Tea-Party-backed candidates.

    Finally, for anyone telling John or others to “shut up” or telling us that we should have more of a sense of humor, I’ll state that none of you would be laughing if FaB had been talking about drug use, tax evasion or extra-marital affairs, and had suggested that Democrats are a bunch of drug users who cheat on their taxes and spouses. This board would be so flooded with outraged comments that it would crash the board and WiC would have to disable comments from the post or remove the post itself.

    Plus, isn’t it the Democrats who are currently calling for a new tone in political discourse? One free from vitriol? I find it funny that their remarks are usually far more vitriolic, but in this case, FaB poked at a hornet’s nest and is now acting surprised he got stung.

    If you really want improved discourse…stop provoking and belittling people you disagree with (which you’ll notice I have not done).

  155. Kanga
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Definitely staying out of the political discussion, yikes…

    (although I do think the nomination of Stephen Harper for Roose Bolton was genius. I love that my country is led by a man who looks like a robot. Way to rock, Canada. :))

    As for the range of sexualities in the books in general, I think it’s great that there’s such a variety. I always found Dorne interesting for that, it was neat to see a culture in Westeros with apparently complete openness to sexual experimentation.

    With the Renly/Loras thing, I just hope they don’t overdo it. I liked how subtle the relationship was in the books, and I’d rather it didn’t turn into a True Blood-type situation in the show. There is such a thing as too much screen time devoted to sex. But that doesn’t have anything to do with the orientation of the characters, that’s a general thing.

    However, as a bi girl myself I can’t say I’ll mind if they include more lesbian relationships/etc than there were in the books. *cough* Dany *coughcough*. I just may fall in love with her when this show starts… ;)

    And as someone pointed out earlier, I think Lena Headey will bring a decent-sized LGBT audience with her. She seems very supportive of the community, which is great because she’ll bring more ratings and also because it’s just awesome :)

  156. The Rabbit
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Mratfink,

    I must admit that it actually crossed my mind as a possibility.
    Unfortunately, now I can not recall the context and timline of the assault at the Dragonstone, so I am pretty incapable to throw further arguments.

    p.s. I did not figure out Loras and Renly after the first read, I red about it on Westeros forums :)

  157. Monkey
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Geez, and I thought the state of politics in England was messed up…

  158. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    John: Polls done by CBS and NYT put 1/3rd of Americans strongly in support of the tea party, which would be 100 million. 300 million / 3 = 100 million.

    Don’t give your movement more credit than is merited. You know, they don’t poll people under 18. A quarter of Americans (75 million) are thus excluded from polls. If you want to say a third of POLLED Americans identify as teabaggers, that’s just over 74 million. Not 100. And young voters are the most likely group to lean Democratic, so you can’t just assume a third of those under 18 will agree with you.

  159. Rick in Sarasota
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    MY 2 cents: Here is how I would have posted this:
    SPOILER NOTE: If our gentle readers do not wish to know which ASoIaF characters are gay, or are not gay, or are pretending to be gay, or are pretending not to be gay, then best skip this post.

    Anyway. Two recent articles popped up online regarding the gay relationships in A Song of Ice and Fire contrasted with those that will appear in Game of Thrones (thanks to our guy Ax0r for supplying the links). Both articles contained new interviews with George R.R. Martin, as well as D.B. Weiss.

    One from the site AfterElton, written by Brent Hartinger, can be found HERE.

    The other, from the …ology site written by Matt Marquez, can be found HERE.

    (The articles are actually both quite similar.)

    One little tidbit that almost went unnoticed:

    Better still, the gay characters will become more important in the second season, based on the second book. “They have a bigger role than they do in the first,” Weiss says.

    Will have, eh? The Season Two confirmation is closer and closer, my dear friends!

    There no one is good or bad …just here is the post and if you don’t want to a spoiler, don’t read it.

  160. Steve B
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Everyone posting here so angrily about politics is a joke. If you can’t even be civil about it, why talk, except to bitch and moan and belittle others and prove you’re right? If you thought FaBio, or someone else, said something inappropriate, fine, let them know about it and get back to GoT.

    You guys are all like kids. This is not the place for this discussion!

  161. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Rick in Sarasota,

    And why he couldn’t have posted just that is beyond me. But, he felt the need to provoke.

  162. The Darkstar
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    -America has the most conservative politics out of any other NA or Euro country in the world.
    -the tea party formed because the most conservative party in the most conservative country wasn’t conservative enough.
    -gay rights is a progressive topic, just like womens rights or African American rights years ago.
    -fundamentally ultra conservatives have a problem with progressive thought.
    (and in my opinion tend to harbor a lot of anger)
    FaB clearly meant no harm or hurt.

  163. MirriMaz
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    While i believe each person is entitled to his own opinion I do find most of the points you made very random (conceiving children, suing pastors, religion in a secular nation????) just cause you can write long paragraphs of randomness doesn’t make you right.

    Now back on topic…I always thought Renly was gay from the moment he was introduced in AGOT, i just thought he has to be the gay one. Blackfish i never really thought about until i started coming on here and Westeros.

  164. Blackfyre
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker: Finally, for anyone telling John or others to “shut up” or telling us that we should have more of a sense of humor, I’ll state that none of you would be laughing if FaB had been talking about drug use, tax evasion or extra-marital affairs, and had suggested that Democrats are a bunch of drug users who cheat on their taxes and spouses. This board would be so flooded with outraged comments that it would crash the board and WiC would have to disable comments from the post or remove the post itself.Plus, isn’t it the Democrats who are currently calling for a new tone in political discourse? One free from vitriol? I find it funny that their remarks are usually far more vitriolic, but in this case, FaB poked at a hornet’s nest and is now acting surprised he got stung.If you really want improved discourse…stop provoking and belittling people you disagree with (which you’ll notice I have not done).    

    I would find it hysterical regardless. By making a post, you are adding fuel to the fire and thus provoking the other side…

    Did FaB make a jab? Possible. Is it something everyone needs to get their panties all up in a bunch about? I don’t think so.

    We all need to remember, this is a site dedicated to Game of Thrones. Take your political views and comments to another site. I for one do not want to scroll through every posters political views just to read the ones related to the topic.

  165. Jim Higgitt
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    I recall when I first realised about Loras/Renly, although I don’t remember the exact quote:

    Jaime (to Loras): Get out of the way or I’ll shove this sword where even Renly wouldn’t have been able to find it.

    Fantastic! I was like, ho….. ly…. shit! I looked out for it on my next reread and yup, the clues are pretty obvious.

    By the way, I can’t remember the context 100%, but I think it was book 3 when Jaime arrives at KL with Brienne in tow and Loras goes to attack her and Jaime has to step in. Does anyone else know the quote I am referring to ?

    Over all, I tend to agree with the majority of views here, don’t add loads of sex (gay or otherwise) just for the sake of it, but if it’s already in the plot, or helps advance it, then go ahead. It is HBO after all, there will be sex. Much sex.

    PS, arguing politics on the internet is not only pointless (well, I do find some it quite amusing, but suspect that was not the intent), it is counter productive. People will not be swayed by inhuman bursts of text on a fourm, and usually (not always of course), these things tend to descend into petty name calling and abuse, which impresses no one and puts off people who may have been already sat on the fence. If you belong to theTea Party and feel upset about lumped in with a bunch of homophobes, then do something productive about it like organising meeting with people with the express intent of improving the Tea Parties image on that front.

    Oh and if you are interested, I am straight, but not a bit bothered by the idea of being gay and I am deeply bothered about the growing popularity of far right-wing organisations like the Tea Party. Just seems kind of upsetting. (this is my opinion, it is not the word of God and I am entitled to it, just like everyone else).

    Whew, sorry for the rant.

  166. Blackfyre
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Mouk: Your comment made me think of something: did any of you ever imagined a Arya+Gendry vs. Dany+Jon? I mean, they are the legitimate vs. the illegitimate heirs of the royal families…And there’s a Stark kid in both sides. How awesome would that finale be? Also, how sad?PS: I see I’m not the only spaniard in here!    

    How do you mean legitimate vs. illegitimate? Gendry and Jon are both bastards as far as we know.

  167. Luke likely
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    I wasn’t as offended as john maybe because I’m used to laughing at opposing political views (being a fan of family guy) but I can see his point. I always love the winter is coming site and think it is a refreshing break from all the political face slapping. It’s feels good to have a community where we’re all united by something we’re passionate about rather than the reality of radically different political opinions. I personally don’t have a problem with gay characters but feel kind of stupid. I mean am I the only one that didn’t pick up that they were gay or maybe I did and just didn’t think about it enough to remember

  168. DH87
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Blackfyre: We don’t need Baratheon legitimacy when there are Targaryen’s running around. Just a matter of time before they meet up… 

    I’m prepared for a Dany reign—long or short— that is without living issue, followed by Arya & Gendry via some sort of deus ex machina. There are precedents in English history and elsewhere for monarchs with flexible definitions of legitimacy. Queen Elizabeth I was considered illegitimate by not only the Catholic Church but also by the Church of England, I believe, since Henry’s marriage to Anne Boleyn was declared null and void by both those entities. (Unlike her sister Mary I, ERI never attempted to legitimize herself.)

  169. DH87
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    feyrband: ow i admittedly have not read the books,

    The books, although not great works of literature, treat both the appearance of various supernatural beings and the issue of gay characters with a good deal more subtlety than does True Blood—surprising, perhaps, given that the TB creator, Alan Ball, openly self- identifies as a gay man.

  170. Lan the Cleaver
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    The Darkstar: -America has the most conservative politics out of any other NA or Euro country in the world.
    -the tea party formed because the most conservative party in the most conservative country wasn’t conservative enough.
    -gay rights is a progressive topic, just like womens rights or African American rights years ago.
    -fundamentally ultra conservatives have a problem with progressive thought.(and in my opinion tend to harbor a lot of anger)
    FaB clearly meant no harm or hurt.    

    Wow. You couldn’t be more wrong. One of the reasons something like the “Teaparty” formed was because of the continued invasion of government into the lives of private citizens. Some of those citizens are gay and should be free to do whatever they choose in their private lives including marriage. For a government to either endorse or condemn the actions of private citizens where no crime has taken place is completely outside of it’s authority.

    The original post was just a joke. No big deal, but it missed the mark badly. That it got under some people’s skin is no surprise as the common perception as constantly espoused by the Main Stream Media is that “Teapartiers” are ignorant, intolerant a-holes. Gun toting, belligerent homophobes. It’s not true and it gets old.

    As for the show, there will be little doubt that they intend for the Renly/Loras relationship to be water-cooler discussion. The Dany/Irri and Cersei/Taena were more just dalliances in the book but I wouldn’t be surprised to see them expanded in the show.

  171. Kanga
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Luke likely: I personally don’t have a problem with gay characters but feel kind of stupid. I mean am I the only one that didn’t pick up that they were gay or maybe I did and just didn’t think about it enough to remember    

    Don’t worry about it, I read the books five times without picking up on the Loras/Renly thing. It never occurred to me until I stumbled across a discussion about it on the internet. Same goes for R+L=J, both of them went right over my head when I read the books.

  172. Luxor
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Benjen Stark is gay. He went to the Night’s Watch because he never accepted the temptation of men. But in the brotherhood, hi realized that staying with another men, the temptation became bigger, so he lost himself in the other side of the wall to find love with some giants (and then you can figure it out how comfortable he lives nowadays). So when Jon Snow finds his uncle with a harem of good loocking giants (I doubt it a little), he understand that relationships between people of the same sexual orientation is not a problem at all, and then he will decide to make a war in honor of the seven colors flag. And obviously he wins, because he is a heroe. THE END.

    Sorry if I say this spoiler to you, it wasn’t my intention.

  173. Maximillian
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker: asex

    Did u just compare homosexual marriage to incest and pedophilia? What heterosexual marriages DO get denied–my experience is this mostly has to do with religious reasons.

    Personally I thought blackfish was on the asexual spectrum. But with a book series such as this, which is based on no black and white answers–doesn’t it make more sense that there are various levels of orientation in the book. Sexuality and attraction isn’t always (or most of the time for that matter) completely one side or the other. This also doesn’t mean most people are bisexual. I think sexuality has been handled incredibly well throughout the series and I know it will be different, but I look forward to seeing the way sexuality is handled on screen as well.

    Androgyny seems to be something that gets little attention, yet is prevalent throughout the series. Think about all of the characters that fit into androgynous descriptions. Many man are compared to women, physically. It is always a shock to me when it is also made a point when a man looks extremely masculine. This masculinity is almost as made a note of as when the character is described as extremely female. The vise versa can be said for the female characters, we all know how often Arya and other females in the series have struggled with this.

    On an interesting side note…(I can gather references if need be…there are tons of articles that have studied this)…there is a high level of correlation to homosexuality in men and birth order. The more older maternally biological brothers a baby boy has, the higher the chances that baby boy will be gay. Correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure this is completely coincidental) Renly and Loras are both the youngest males in their family…both with two older brothers.

    Just fun to mix in some modern psychology with this amazing book series!

  174. Rinoa De la Pica
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart: I’m straight and don’t agree with homosexuality

    I’m gay and I AGREE with heterosexuality. Sort of. At least it seems there are a lot of straight people that are smart, intelligent and open-minded. But, geez, what a bunch of “haters” we have around here, it’s sad to read all that homophobic garbage. Come on guys, just GO to other places to speak about your prejudices and hate. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.

    On topic, I’m so glad they decided to show us a bit of Renly/Loras. They are sooo damned hot I think I’m gonna meltdown when I see them kissing. Oh Lord, ‘Game of Thrones’ will portray all things I love… I can’t be grateful enough :)

    BTW, I remember other gay man in the books, one of the King’s Guards (I don’t remember his name though… Ser Preston Greenfield or Ser Mandon Moore?). I suppose he is not a key character, but there he is.

    Ps: I am big FaB supporter. I know you’re a great guy and didn’t intend to raise that controversy. It’s just some people are so narrow-minded. Glad to see some nice commenters as well (I love reedgirl, Blackflish Blues, Steve Hugh Westenra… Thanks guys, I love reading you every time lol)

  175. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    Truth. FaB deserves a flogging.

  176. gypsy
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    a) some of you americans take your politics way too intensely – aren’t you supposed to have the right to free speech?
    b) i love the loras/renly relationship. I especially like the way it was only alluded to, instead of wacking you in the face with it. Just makes it more mysterious and special
    c) chill out guys

  177. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    MirriMaz,

    America is not a secular nation. It was founded on Christian principles. I will hear no argument on that; I’ve heard all the “founding fathers were atheist” horseshit and it’s just that; horseshit. They weren’t perfect men but they were followers of Christianity.

    And my paragraphs were not random. I was trying to show that those against gay marriage may not necessarily be raging homophobes but might have legitimate complaints about it. I also was trying to say that marriage is not a right–not for anyone. Homosexuals can currently live together, get a civil union that makes them for all intents and purposes married, they can visit each other in the hospital during family visitation, the surviving partner gets the house in the event of the death of one partner, and they can handle funeral arrangements, among numerous other things they can currently do and no one is trying to stop them.

    I’m not about to trot out the old “some of my best friends are gay” canard (even though it’s true, and yes, they know how I feel about gay marriage), but I will say that I’m a writer and in the book I’m working on is so sympathetic to two gay characters and what they have to endure that it’s almost like I’m a gay rights activist.

    And this isn’t random; I’m saying I have no problem with consenting adults living their lives however they want. I have no intention on treading on their rights (recall that I have said repeatedly marriage is not a right) as long as they show me the same respect.

    And that is part of the problem. The Left in America refuses to show respect to the other side, even while disagreeing with them. It’s not enough to think they’re wrong; they must also have some nefarious motive. I don’t share leftist viewpoints, and I certainly have read some of GRRM’s blog posts that have left me shaking my head, but I still love his books and would never even think of not recommending them, or accusing him of being part of some left-wing propaganda machine, just because he’s a leftist. On the other hand, I don’t know how many times I’ve seen someone suggest that they’ll never read another book by Orson Scott Card nor recommend him to others even though they “used to” love books like Ender’s Game or the Alvin Maker series, and accuse him of “selling out to the far right” or being a propagandist. Leftists cannot disagree with someone and yet still show respect.

    So FaB makes a totally needless jab at a political group (they’re not even a party, and they’re not organized) that is not and never was about stamping out homosexuality, showing no respect for the idea that many GoT fans might agree with the Tea Party, and we’re supposed to be the bad guys, worthy of being banned, because we got offended? I mean, I didn’t like it when clementine insisted on calling Americans “USians” (how would you even pronounce that? “Youessians”? “Usshions?”) but I would never advocate banning her.

  178. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    gypsy,

    I’m not American, but not mentioning politics should obviously be a given, and when FaB’s observation is plain wrong, then he should be called out on his bs.

  179. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Petter Kristian Vikestad: gypsy,
    I’m not American, but not mentioning politics should obviously be a given, and when FaB’s observation is plain wrong, then he should be called out on his bs.    

    Exactly, and it’s more than that. I’m right-of-center but my big loves are speculative fiction, movies, music and predicting the Oscars. I can’t seem to go to a single website about my interests without seeing numerous swipes at those who share my political leanings, and it was refreshing that it seems to happen infrequently here.

    I used to be a regular reader and commenter at awardsdaily.com (back when it was called oscarwatch.com) but increasingly I found that those with any sort of right-of-center views were not welcome on that site, even by the administrators. More than once a post was put up of some conservative (they didn’t even have to be famous) who was quoted as saying he or she didn’t agree with the moral message of a movie or movies that were up for awards that year, and the entire goal of the posts on that topic was to make fun of these people. I eventually emailed the administrators, asking them if they couldn’t create a politics section in the boards and tell users to confine their political discussions to that board so that those of us there to discuss movies and awards could do so without veering off into political tangents. I don’t think this is unreasonable; many other sites do this. I never heard back from them and last I checked those “lets-laugh-at-stupid-conservatives” posts were still ongoing on the main page.

    Why is it that a site about movies can’t keep from making political jabs (particularly mean-spirited ones)? I don’t know, but I would hate to see WiC devolve into the same.

  180. Luxor
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    I’m straight and gayfriendly. I have five gay friends (one them is a girl) and they are, of course, just as normal as everyone else.

    I think that those who strongly reject homosexuality will have to tolerate living in a world that is progressing socially in favor of sexual freedom. And if they don’t want to be social misfits in the future, they will have to work in their positions.

    Homosexuality has always existed, even in middle age (time in which books are inspired). Taking it into account, does nothing but enrich the story.

  181. Jim Ticka
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Future reference FaB, never mention politics or religion, in jest or otherwise, on the internet if you don’t want to start a bitchfest.

  182. purplejilly
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Love all the gay characters.

    Feel it was a real misstep to bring up the Tea Party.

    The real base of the Democrat Party is African Americans and they are more anti gay than perhaps any community in America. Funny how that is.

  183. mummer
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Josh and John: If you don’t want politics to intrude on this board, you might consider not writing hundreds and hundreds of words of highly political comments in response to ONE SENTENCE that you found offensive. If you don’t think the things you’ve written here are just as partisan and potentially offensive to many readers here as FaB’s remark was to you, you’re dreaming. PLEASE stop. There is no excuse for you to drag your grudges toward other Internet communities that you’ve had arguments with onto this board. “He did it first” is not an excuse.

    And for what it’s worth, if our hosts made equally flippant comments about a group I belong to, I would not stop reading this board. I would probably voice an opinion about it. I would not go on and on and on fanning the flames and dragging the entire history of the United States into it– or if I got carried away and started doing that, and had this many people begging me to give it a rest, I sure hope I would give it a rest.

  184. purplejilly
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: Love all the gay characters. Feel it was a real misstep to bring up the Tea Party. The real base of the Democrat Party is African Americans and they are more anti gay than perhaps any community in America. Funny how that is.  Quote  Reply

    Note – this was my husband posting a comment under my login accidentally. NOT my thoughts. If it could be deleted, that would be okay with me..

  185. mummer
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    And please, PLEASE everyone else try to avoid taking bait– such as purplejilly’s last comment. Some people clearly enjoy this kind of foofaraw and would like to stir it up even more; no reason to oblige them.

  186. mummer
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    ps. After writing the above, now I see purplejilly’s explanation that that wasn’t really her comment. So I’ll just say I wish people would avoid taking bait, regardless of who’s offering it.

  187. purplejilly
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: (I was actually preparing for more of a backlash against people in support of the color indigo. Maybe I’ve dodged that bullet!)  Quote  Reply

    I am a lover of ALL shades of purple, and I deeply resent the exclusion of Indigo! It’s one of my favorite colors! If the Rainbow Guard flag excludes Indigo, then that’s the final straw for me. First they deny Dany and Viserys their beautiful purple eyes, then leave Indigo out of the Rainbow? That’s the last straw for me!!!

  188. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    Is this still happening? (yawns again)

  189. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    First off, the person who dragged the idea that America is a secular nation into this discussion wasn’t me. I had to point out the ignorance of that statement.

    Second, John voiced that he was offended, and what did FaB do? Apologize and state that wasn’t his intent? Address the concern with respect and then declare that we should move on from political discussion? No, he made another joke in poor taste assuming there’s no way John could be serious. And then AFTER that, he jokingly stated that he was trying to say the Tea Party doesn’t like spoilers.

    FaB fanned the flames, not us.

  190. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and let’s not forget other users declaring that people who think as I do should be banned for their views. And yet, supposedly, we’re the problem.

  191. Azurecobalt
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Sigh. Can we close the comments to this post so we can move on to other Game of Thrones related conversation? Clearly the discussion intended by this post has not materialized. And it’s a shame, too, because it’s an important discussion to have.

  192. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Azurecobalt,

    Blame FaB. He couldn’t resist slamming a huge chunk of Americans. Did he really think no TP supporters came to this site?

  193. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Yes. Yes it is.
    In a way though, despite all the arguing back and forth, it’s a bit refreshing to see that, in a post all about gay characters, the controversial argument isn’t to do with people claiming homosexuality is wrong or anything nasty like that. I remember a few months ago that such an argument DID arise on GRRM’s blog and it just left a sour taste in my mouth.

    It would, however, have been nice not to have to skim the comments to find the ones that are about the topic at hand. D:
    I shall now crawl back under my rock to continue writing my incredibly gay novel.

  194. corbob
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe this has been blown so far out of proportion. Some people need to grow thicker skins it seems.

    Back to Game of Thrones.

  195. purplejilly
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Maybe I have more finely tuned gay-dar, but I picked up on Renly and Loras right away, and even before they started showing them together. The knight of ‘flowers’? the emphasis on Renly’s and Loras’ well-dressed habits, the rainbow guard. I saw it right away. I was surprised GRRM didn’t have either one of them decorating throne rooms or something, there were so many stereotypical ‘hints’.

    I always felt like Brienne’s physical and emotional descriptions sounded very much like a transgendered female. The physical attributes and the agression seem typical for someone who had too much testosterone.

    I could see Osha as bi very easily.

    It seemed like the descriptions of the Kinsguard and the Night’s Watch made them both ideal places for gay men that wanted a safe way to be gay. Bound by their oaths to take no wives and father no children. So easy to explainto the family, then, if you were gay but did not want to be ‘out’.

  196. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Yep, I’d hoped HBO would leak us something tonight so people would forget about this, but no go…

    …so…how about that local sports team? (As is happens, my local sports team clearly sucks…)

  197. Mark
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    The Darkstar: -America has the most conservative politics out of any other NA or Euro country in the world.
    -the tea party formed because the most conservative party in the most conservative country wasn’t conservative enough.
    -gay rights is a progressive topic, just like womens rights or African American rights years ago.
    -fundamentally ultra conservatives have a problem with progressive thought.(and in my opinion tend to harbor a lot of anger)
    FaB clearly meant no harm or hurt.    

    word on this.

  198. MWads4200
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Im done with this site…like anyone cares anyway.

  199. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    It’s liberals who have the thin skins. Don’t believe me? Maybe you’ll believe Ricky Gervais. If he had made the same kind of jokes at the Golden Globes but had targeted Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck or the Tea Parties, do you think he’d be allowed to come back next year? Do you think any news releases would have called his remarks “controversial” and “in poor taste”? Or do you think he’d be celebrated as “cutting edge” and “witty”?

    I’m gonna make an attempt, however, to actually address the question being asked, here.

    First, I picked up on the Renly/Loras think the instant Stannis made a remark about Margaery dying a maid as long as she went to Renly’s bed at night. After that, on my second read, I picked up on the “prayer” session with Loras having more to do with hot buttsex than prayer. After that, Jaime’s comments, Loras’s lamenting about “when the sun has set what candle can replace it?” made total sense. I would be offended if these references were left out of the series, and I think it’s a good thing that we’ll be seeing their relationship happen onscreen.

    As for the Blackfish, I do think he’s severely closeted. Why else would his being told to marry cause him to not speak to his brother ever again? I hassled my brother that he was in his late twenties and not married, and he just laughed it off. He certainly wasn’t so angry he went off to live with our cousins so he wouldn’t have to see me or speak to me. (Ironically he’s now happily married and I’m separated with an impending divorce.)

  200. mummer
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Josh, you and John have written about 20000% more so far than FaB did, and have dragged in all sorts of unrelated crap, so it’s ridiculous to claim you’re not fanning the flames. Other commenters have also made things worse and wasted time by trying to argue with you on political points, but no one is forcing you to respond to every single person here. It’s the Internet, there’s an infinite supply of people you could argue with, and you really are writing in a very inflammatory way that pretty much guarantees someone’s going to try– I mean, even people who believe that “America is not a secular nation” is 100% true are surely aware that those are fighting words to a lot of people.

    You are doing exactly what you say FaB did, but doing it more and more and over and over again. If you keep going at this rate, I really do hope you’ll be banned– NOT for your political views, but because it’s incredibly disruptive. And my mom taught me that big kids don’t use “he did it first” as an excuse.

  201. mummer
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Josh, thank you for the last three paragraphs of your last comment. I’m going to ignore the invitation to further argument in the first paragraph, and I hope others will do the same.

    About the Blackfish– that sure is a popular explanation and it seems plausible to me, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to be more complicated than that. GRRM has just barely started delving into the history of the Tullys, and we’ve only heard a very brief mention of the nature of the dispute between Hoster and Brynden. I’m pretty sure he’s going to step into the spotlight a bit more in ADWD… and whatever the truth turns out to be, probably a lot of us will be slapping our foreheads and going “D’oh! Of course!”

  202. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    I agree, I think it’s hilarious that the controversy isn’t even about the main post, but about the Tea Party. Anyway, I enjoyed this post and FaB’s joke.

  203. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    I also thought Ricky Gervais was HILARIOUS on the Globes! Watched it on youtube today with some friends, and we nearly peed from laughing.

  204. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and I like the GoT pun in the title of this post. Not sure if anyone else mentioned it yet. :)

  205. James
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
    America is a secular country whether you like it or not. Conservatives really love the Constitution but they really wish the Founding Fathers left that part out so they could force their religion on Americans who reject bronze age myths. Luckily the Founding Fathers knew there is no bigger threat to real freedom and liberty than religion. History has shown us that and even today we see it. The biggest threat to freedom and liberty comes from the religious right. They have a certain moral view and their goal is to elect people with similar moral views and to pass laws forcing the rest of Americans to abide by those moral views. There are also numerous quotes from Founding Fathers where they are very critical of religious theology. Many of them were not Christian and that was in 1770’s before we had any idea about the history of the universe or human life like we do today.

  206. gurgi
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    After months of coming here and enjoying this site I feel rather betrayed by the idiotic first post.

    You think we come here to get not so clever insults?

    After sending people many, many links to this site and trying to help drum up excitement? Stupid all the way around.

  207. Ed
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    John,

    I actually stumbled on his comments when I first read his post too. Then I forgot about it and moved on. You’re taking it (and yourself) WAY too seriously.

    Relax man, let’s talk about GoTs…

    John: re were a real lesbian couple or two. That’s one of the things that’s bothered me about ASoIaF: when women have sex with each other, it’s about something other than love. Dany’s lonely and horny, so her maid helps her out, and…the “Myrish swamp”? I’m not saying those events are out of character or don’t fit, but it would be nice to balance them out with a relationship that shows that women can actually desire each other.

  208. Kana
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    Because it’s one thing to make fun of people at a party that you don’t know personally, and another thing to make fun of people to their faces? It’s got nothing to do with liberals or conservatives.

    Seriously, can we just delete all this off-topic shite? As we get closer and closer to GoT actually coming out, we’re gonna be getting more and more of these semi-troll, semi-moron posts, it’d be a shame for a pretty decent poster community to be destroyed be the inevitable flood of keyboard diarrhea.

    And screw you for trying to equate that pointing out that teabaggers don’t much like the gays is the same as homophobia. I’ve got friends who’ve been hospitalized because of violent homophobes, so no, it ain’t the same thing. Not even close.

  209. EvilClosetMonkey
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    If you only care about GoT discussion, please skip to below the line in this post.

    Politics: Please, let’s just avoid the subject. Many of the Americans here (myself included) really don’t care to discuss this here. I’m pretty sure the non-Americans are even less interested in that discussion.

    @ Josh Parker
    I’ll agree that atheism was not on the agenda of the founding fathers. And yes, many of their guiding principles were based on Christian ideas; however, I have to disagree that it can be simply stated that America is not a secular nation and was founded solely on Christian principles. Many of the founding fathers did not identfy themselves as simply Christian. Some were Deists (Paine and Frankling explicitly stated they were), some claimed no specific creed (Jefferson stated he was of a sect by himself and it would be misleading to state he was a Christian as the term is comonly defined), some seemed to think that their beliefs were something to be ket private (Washington did not really dicuss his religious beliefs. He promoted a belief in God as well as tolerance of all religions, and while he continued to attend services he stopped taking communion in his later years.)
    _______________________________________________________________

    As to the actual topic, my only quibble with the first season Renly-Loras scene is that (going purely off of memory here) I feel it would fit better in season two. But as long as it doesn’t feel like it is there just for the sake of having a gay sex scene I’m fine with it.

    I agree that the the lack of definitive lesbian couples is probably a function of the patriarchal society. As far as Blackfish, I personally don’t believe he is gay, but I wouldn’t be shocked if it turns out that he is. I really like that there is a spectrum of sexuality represented in these books.

  210. Cbushea
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    John,
    You are boring the hell out of everybody. Nobody cares!

    John,

  211. gurgi
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Its like FaB was like now I will bring up homosexual issues. Watch the TeaBaggers brains explode!!!

    Yeah he was looking for a fight and trying to be snarky.

    Real wise.

  212. Ed
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Therein lies the problem. FaB broke this covenent in the Original Post. If he would have just acknowledged that and apologized we all could have saved hours of reading. No bunching of panties, just an observation.

    Blackfyre:
    We all need to remember, this is a site dedicated to Game of Thrones. Take your political views and comments to another site.

  213. GaR
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    I do find it typical that Tea Partiers are trying censor a blog about a TV show.

    I read enough retarded comments from god-bothering, gay-hating, gun-loving, Palin-worshiping rednecks on other sites; I sort of thought the commenters here were a bit more liberal…

    Speaking of which, Americans need to understand that what they are now calling “liberal” is pretty much just code for “not a stupid hick”

    Back on topic:

    Wastrel,

    Interesting points about Arya. I’ll definitely be reading aDwD pretty carefully.

  214. ethelred
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Agreed. I’m a liberal, and I found Gervais’ Golden Globe jokes incredibly hilarious… though not nearly on the level as his unbelievable work on Extras, which is pretty much The Funniest Thing Ever (see, for instance, the Samuel L. Jackson racism episode, the Patrick Stewart “I’ve seen everything” episode, the Ian McKellen “You shall not pass!” episode, and the Warwick Davis/hobbit episode).

  215. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    EvilClosetMonkey: As to the actual topic, my only quibble with the first season Renly-Loras scene is that (going purely off of memory here) I feel it would fit better in season two. But as long as it doesn’t feel like it is there just for the sake of having a gay sex scene I’m fine with it. .  Quote  Reply

    I was thinking that too. I think it would work just as well if they teased out the relationship through the first season and actually confirmed it with a sex scene in season two. Still, if it’s done right it could help emphasize Sansa’s naivety, and give us more of Renly’s characters and making his betrayal of ned more powerful

  216. GaR
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Apologise for saying a true thing (albeit a generalised one)? I wouldn’t.

    If Tea Partiers don’t want tot look like homophobes they should stop being such massive homophobes.

  217. GaR
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Phoenix_torn,

    You see it as a betrayal? After Ned turned Renly’s offer, he did the only sensible thing, IMO.

  218. ethelred
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Phoenix_torn:
    I was thinking that too. I think it would work just as well if they teased out the relationship through the first season and actually confirmed it with a sex scene in season two. Still, if it’s done right it could help emphasize Sansa’s naivety, and give us more of Renly’s characters and making his betrayal of ned more powerful    

    Renly didn’t betray Ned. Renly made a perfectly reasonable offer to Ned, but Ned, being too honorable (and dumb), rejected it. Renly then did the sensible thing and got the hell out of Dodge. No betrayal, just bad judgment on Ned’s part leading to his own downfall.

  219. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    mummer: Josh, you and John have written about 20000% more so far than FaB did, and have dragged in all sorts of unrelated crap, so it’s ridiculous to claim you’re not fanning the flames. Other commenters have also made things worse and wasted time by trying to argue with you on political points, but no one is forcing you to respond to every single person here. It’s the Internet, there’s an infinite supply of people you could argue with, and you really are writing in a very inflammatory way that pretty much guarantees someone’s going to try– I mean, even people who believe that “America is not a secular nation” is 100% true are surely aware that those are fighting words to a lot of people.You are doing exactly what you say FaB did, but doing it more and more and over and over again. If you keep going at this rate, I really do hope you’ll be banned– NOT for your political views, but because it’s incredibly disruptive. And my mom taught me that big kids don’t use “he did it first” as an excuse.  Quote  Reply

    Uh, I’ll admit I skipped over some of the many posts, (from like comment 120-220 I was MIA) but I did not make any personal attacks, all of my posts were completely respectful, and mature. I did not use slurs, I did not use hyperbole, I did not engage in any ad hominem behavior.

    I do see you keep posting asking me to stop posting… puzzling, that. I’ve been busy for the last 8 or so hours.

    I did see someone mention the Tea Party was far right, that is incorrect. The christian coalition is far right. The Tea Party is a based on largely libertarian economics. I actually watched the birth of the tea party on live TV, when it happened. It was on CNBC, sister network of MSNBC. And the reporter who started it all complained about governments bailing out irresponsible homeowners who bought more home than they could afford, he then said “We should have nother tea party..” and the rest is history. Nothing about homosexuals in his entire rant. Funny, that.

  220. Lex
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    ethelred,

    Oh I’ve seen Extras, I love it. Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen were my favourite episodes. David Bowie was good too.

  221. Sleeky
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Goldenbrown: I welcome the way HBO is dealing with Loras/Renly relationship. It will avoid all the “they are, they are not” discussion amog the viewers, that will ended up being fruitless. Their “love story” (if you alloe me to put it in that way) is important to the whole context of the story and cannot be pushed under the rug. From that, you can understand more clearly the drive of some characters or some events.

    While I think that what you say here makes sense, there is a perverse part of me that prevents me from completely agreeing with you.

    I find alot of appeal in toying with the general audiences perceptions. Instead of having their relationship more overt, I like the idea of subtle clues.

    Example: In a scene where Renly and Loras are talking have one clasp the others shoulder to emphasis a point, and then instead of letting go, his had would just kind of slide down the others arm and then let go. Or when a discussion is over have them continue to look at each other just alittle bit longer then one might expect before turning to leave.

    Once the third season (third book) is underway the relationship can come completely out in open discussion. But until then the idea of making question marks appear over peoples heads has alot of appeal for me. :)

  222. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    ethelred,

    You’re both right. I was trying to think of a better word but couldn’t. I agree that Renly’s actions made the most sense in his position. I’m just trying to say that I hope we get more scenes with Renly in season one so we get a better idea of that position.

  223. John
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Oh, it would appear there are two Johns… I’m the original John, the one with the first comment on the thread. The other one is most definitely not me.

    Also, as far as “Fanning the flames” and “my side” is doing it… Have you been reading the other comments. Teabagger, hick, palin-loving (I hate her thank you), redneck. These are all derogatory terms. There have been more salvos pointed in this direction. Plenty on intelligence.

    It is obvious that this site attracts many different age groups, perhaps that is the problem. A few of us were able to converse like adults.

    Why not give it a rest? Sometimes you just get tired, like a few of the other commenters who said they just get tired of being insulted, viciously, personally, (like being called a homophobe) because they happen to think states rights are a good thing, lower government spending is a good thing, low taxes are a good thing. Maybe we’re tired of all the verbal abuse and how people (like FaB) think its okay to toss such insults around. Maybe we want to make sure they know its not okay, we won’t be demonized anymore. Debate us on the issues, don’t demagogue us. It is not okay.

  224. Sleeky
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Sleeky:
    Once the third season (third book) is underway the relationship cancome completely out in open discussion. But until then the idea of making question marks appear over peoples heads has alot of appeal for me.     

    My mistake. I meant to say the second season (second book). Not third.

    My apologies.

  225. GaR
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Phoenix_torn,

    True that. I think his actions were pretty logical, but any more story that makes its way into the show is more than welcome :D

    John,

    If that’s the case then the Tea Party has a serious PR problem, because pretty much everything I’ve seen of them is stupid rednecks trying to stop people from doing things. Which isn’t really what libertarianism is all about. The Tea Party appears almost diametrically opposed to what it started out as.

  226. mummer
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    John,
    I was talking to Josh, who had been continuing the pointless argument after you took a break. I mentioned your name only in the first sentence, and I didn’t say anything about whether you used slurs, etc. The fact is that this has obviously derailed the thread into a political argument that can’t possibly produce anything but acrimony. I was glad you took a break, and I’m sad to see that you seem to be eager to start up again. And “he did it first” is still not an excuse.

    You may notice that Josh has now started talking about GoT again. I’d really love it if you did the same. The same goes for everyone else here who’s dragging out the political dispute, but you don’t have to do it just because someone else is. If you want to talk about libertarianism, I’m pretty sure you can find a few other places on the Internet to do that.

  227. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    Love the discussions! Good to see my “fanbase” is solid (and growing), though I am somewhat vexed a number of you have finally seen through my disguise.

    In truth, as some of you have only recently discovered, I have a hatred in my heart that is terrible to behold. I am the epitome of the internet troll, divisive and filled with cankerous bile, safely obscured and tucked away in the relative safety of my mother’s moldy basement. I perch, gargoyle-like and bent-backed upon my wobbly little kitchen chair, gnarled fingers at the ready, ever prepared to stoke the oiled fires of knee-jerk sensates and silly people internet wide. My messages are carefully constructed, the barbs expertly delivered, aimed to skewer the weak and the pitiful and the sensitive, because making people cry is fun. It’s fun. I mock all of you! Ah-hah! Ha ha ha!

    Alright? Happy?

    Okay, okay. Actually… I only mock the Right (according to my family). What fools, they, with their God and their guns. And maybe the Left too (according to my friends). Leaf-kissing, peace-loving hippie communists! Y’all don’t belong here!

    Wait, I’m sorry, I go too far. I know I do. I can’t help it! Sometimes weakness just sits there, ready to be plucked like ripe fruit from a tree, or like a gnarly scab on my mother’s weeping backside. I am my own worst enemy. Henceforth, I am finished with the lies. I should put forth the final truth.

    Here it goes:

    I love people. All sorts of people. People fascinate me. The weird people, the “normal” (haha) people; the ones who think they have problems and the ones with real problems, like Sia Furler. And I mock, openly and with little regard for their feelings, because I can’t fathom how any living person could be so innately weak that a word, or a sentence, or a paragraph would truly do them harm. Words are like wind, you see. I have no pity for the dead, for they are gone; I pity instead those left behind to mourn their passing. And I have no pity for anyone who uses the word “offended,” not while there remains physical cruelty in the world.

    I mock myself, and I like to do it often because it keeps me grounded (else I would drift aloft to the heavens, buoyed by my vast intellect). I mock Winter and his gay (the Natalia Tena version of gay) dodgeball headband. I mock my wife, I mock Vee. I mock HmR and his eighty languages, and he accepts it, stoically. I mock GRRM, I mock poor dead Ned. I mocked Obama and I mocked Bush, and I even mocked Ross Perot.

    If I see you and I know you, I will hug you, kiss you on the cheek, and deliver King Robert’s soon-to-be classic “You’ve gotten fat” quip, which is basically me mocking myself by mocking you. Well, not just you, but your mom, your family…. you know. You people.

    You, in turn, will either accept the FaB and take me into your heart, or you will do your best to avoid me like the plague for the rest of your life.

    A third option is you will find a gun and come looking for me. But probably only if you’re from Texas. Ah, lordy, them Texans! They just kill me!

    To those I have truly offended, with merit, I can say only this:

    Kiss off, you lanky fat bastard gits. Indigo is a blight upon the face of human consciousness. It hardly bears a right to call itself a color, much less dare to find a place on the seven-colored optical spectrum. As of this moment, nothing has ever been officially stated to prove that indigo is a part of the Seven’s color prism. There are three primary colors: red, yellow, and blue. There are three secondary colors: orange, green, and violet. It’s a perfectly… balanced… system. Why the FROG anyone would even attempt to mess with that cohesion by inserting a seventh color–much less one described as “bluish purple”–I have NO freaking idea.

    So all you indigo lovers can go suck on a rotten egg. Until GRRM tells me otherwise, I’m going to assume the seventh color is good ol’ reliable black.

  228. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    The whole separation of church and state thing has been grossly misinterpreted. The entire goal of Congress not making a law establishing a religion was to avoid the trap England had fallen into of having an official state religion. If you want to know why that was a bad idea, watch The Tudors.

    What that law was NOT for, however, was protection of government from the church. It was for protecting the church from the government, because religion is one thing the government should NEVER get involved in. Does that mean religious people aught not to run for office? No. It means that once in office, they shouldn’t stick their noses into church business or promote one religion over another.

    This does not mean that America is a secular nation. It may be that most Americans these days are secular people but that’s not the same thing. Where do you think our laws against murder came from? From the Ten Commandments, that’s where from. And why in a divorce can a cheating spouse lose everything? From the Commandment against adultery. America’s laws were and still are based on Christian laws. It doesn’t mean you have to believe in God if you live in America, but America is a Christian nation, not a secular one.

    And I gotta agree with John; the people fanning the flames are the ones saying things like “liberal is just a code for not a stupid hick”. I’m not a stupid hick, thank you. I live in an urban environment surrounded by liberals, work with them, even go to church with them (back when I went to church). How is it okay for you to paint my entire side as a bunch of under-educated stupid hicks, but it’s not okay for me to take offense to that? If I said all liberals are stupid, arrogant children who are ruled by their emotions and hate America for not being a Communist Utopia, like, say, Cuba, you’d likely all want to slit my throat, or at least ban me from this site.

    But people can call me a stupid hick and they’re okay.

  229. reedgirl
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    FaB was fist-bumped by TyrionfreakinLannister.
    That is all.

  230. spacechampion
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    By that logic, you really ought to say America is a Jewish nation.

  231. BryanP
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    James: Josh Parker,
    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”America is a secular country whether you like it or not. Conservatives really love the Constitution but they really wish the Founding Fathers left that part out so they could force their religion on Americans who reject bronze age myths. Luckily the Founding Fathers knew there is no bigger threat to real freedom and liberty than religion. History has shown us that and even today we see it. The biggest threat to freedom and liberty comes from the religious right. They have a certain moral view and their goal is to elect people with similar moral views and to pass laws forcing the rest of Americans to abide by those moral views. There are also numerous quotes from Founding Fathers where they are very critical of religious theology. Many of them were not Christian and that was in 1770′s before we had any idea about the history of the universe or human life like we do today.    

    The amendment in question means that the government can’t create a State Religion, like what the English has. The second line following that (which you didn’t include) means that the government can’t ban or hinder someone’s religious preference.

    Please remember, that the same people who wrote these amendments also had a pastor say a prayer prior to each session.

  232. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    One thing people on the Left don’t get, and probably won’t ever get, is that to be a right-winger in America today is to watch movies and TV, read books, listen to music, etc. just waiting with baited breath for a line of dialogue or lyrics that call them stupid, lying, hypocritical, evil, fascist, racist, sexist, homophobic or just plain evil when a great majority of us aren’t any of those things.

    But the alternative is to stop watching movies and TV, stop reading books and listening to music, etc., other than stuff our side produces (Glenn Beck writes novels now, did you know that? I have never read one) or stuff from ages ago so that we don’t have to wince and swallow these insults day in and day out.

    I didn’t do that. I kept reading ASOIAF well after learning that GRRM was a leftist. I own every season of Boston Legal. Why? It’s a good show and I love it. I still listen to musical artists I know are left-wing, and I still watch movies with Sean Penn and Matt Damon. I love movies, I love TV, I love books and I love music and I refuse to live my life without them. But my side has made it very easy for the Left to completely dominate the entertainment industry. How? By leaving it behind. By backing down.

    I refuse to do that. I have an opinion and if it differs from yours, I don’t care. I’m gonna voice it. I’m not looking to start shit, but if you start it, I’m gonna finish it. And I’m gonna keep doing it until there’s more balance out there and more people start to understand that right-wingers aren’t just a fringe of society, we’re not evil, sexist, racist, homophobic fascists, and we’re not stupid or uneducated, either. Our views may differ from yours, but we are still entitled to them, and we’re done backing down and letting you ridicule us and attack us with impunity.

    You can say you mock both sides equally, but I say I’ve been coming to this site pretty much since it existed, I read every new post, and I’ve never seen you attack a leftist or leftist group this way. When you make jokes about Code Pink, the Climate Change fanatics or the fact that Obama is basically Bush 2.0 but with more socialism, then I’ll believe you attack both sides the same way. As it is, all you’ve done is make an unwarranted and baseless attack in a post that had nothing to do with that political group.

    I’m gonna be like Colin Firth in The King’s Speech. “Why should I listen to you?” “BECAUSE I HAVE A VOICE!”

  233. BryanP
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    BryanP,

    Oh, and us conservatives just want people to be able to read what was written, not add things that weren’t. Sort of like you did in your post.

  234. Josh Parker
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Oooh, and suddenly my comments are being moderated! That has never happened before and I can only assume it’s because I’ve outed myself as a right-winger. And you accuse ME of wanting to censor this site?

  235. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Clip of Tom McCarthy’s new movie Win Win from Sundance

    http://www.mtv.com/videos/?id=1655704

  236. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Rinoa De la Pica:
    I’m gay and I AGREE with heterosexuality. Sort of. At least it seems there are a lot of straight people that are smart,intelligent and open-minded. But, geez, what a bunch of “haters” we have around here, it’s sad to read all that homophobic garbage. Come on guys, just GO to other places to speak about your prejudices and hate. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.On topic, I’m so glad they decided to show us a bit of Renly/Loras. They are sooo damned hot I think I’m gonna meltdown when I see them kissing. Oh Lord, ‘Game of Thrones’ will portray all things I love… I can’t be grateful enough
    BTW, I remember other gay man in the books, one of the King’s Guards (I don’t remember his name though… Ser Preston Greenfield or Ser Mandon Moore?).I suppose he is not a key character, but there he is.Ps: I am big FaB supporter. I know you’re a great guy and didn’t intend to raise that controversy. It’s just some people are so narrow-minded. Glad to see some nice commenters as well (I love reedgirl, Blackflish Blues, Steve Hugh Westenra… Thanks guys, I love reading you every time lol)    

    It is not impossible to disassociate between the act and the actee. The homosexuality and the person. It is completely possible for a human to dislike the act but still like or even love the person. For example in far easier way to understand. Please understand this.

  237. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker: Oooh, and suddenly my comments are being moderated! That has never happened before and I can only assume it’s because I’ve outed myself as a right-winger. And you accuse ME of wanting to censor this site?    

    We would not censor you; you are far too amusing. People do not get moderated, but certain words do. Let me check and see what the hangup is. Please stand by!

  238. Zack
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: I love people. All sorts of people. People fascinate me. The weird people, the “normal” (haha) people; the ones who think they have problems and the ones with real problems, like Sia Furler. And I mock, openly and with little regard for their feelings, because I can’t fathom how any living person could be so innately weak that a word, or a sentence, or a paragraph would truly do them harm. Words are like wind, you see. I have no pity for the dead, for they are gone; I pity instead those left behind to mourn their passing. And I have no pity for anyone who uses the word “offended,” not while there remains physical cruelty in the world.

    Dude….yes. Yes. Woo. I am so glad the people running the coolest fansite on the Net are equally as awesome.

    “Words are like bullets, and I let them pass right through me.”

    Also, I would like to chime in with Lex and ethelred and show some Gervais-love. His work at the Globes was blisteringly funny, Extras was incredible “Even before she can get her knickers on, I’ve seen everything.” His recent HBO special talking about Noah’s Ark is GOLD. People are too easily offended.

    (I’m liberal, but I laugh my ass off at South Park’s Rob Reiner anti-smoking episode. Despite thinking smoking laws are sensible. Funny is funny.)

  239. Wolfheart
    Posted January 22, 2011 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    damnit. sentence unfinished. Far to many glasses of wine to care.

  240. Josh Parker
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood:
    We would not censor you; you are far too amusing. People do not get moderated, but certain words do. Let me check and see what the hangup is. Please stand by!    

    You do realize I’ve been coming to this site for a long time now, posted quite a few times, and never once have I brought up my politics before today. Some have called me a troll on this site or told me I should be banned. This was never the case before today.

  241. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    There we go. You just had to go say sheite didn’t you?! I’m offended.

    Don’t be jumpy, man. I have images of you jumping around shouting, “Come see the violence inherent in the system!”

    Anyway. Left, right… It’s all shades of gray, and taking a “side” (like politicians are mostly forced to do) removes certain freedoms of choice. I personally do “lean” left, mostly because a huge swath of the right is steeped in unyielding religious precepts; it’s my pot-smoking friends who accuse me of leaning right whenever I bitch to them about the need for quality law enforcement.

    But I’d legalize that sheite at the drop of a hat and tax that motherfarmer. Guess I’m part Libertarian as well.

    It’s all good, broski.

  242. ethelred
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    I would’ve gone with “help, help, I’m being oppressed!” personally.

  243. Rose
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    mummer: Josh and John: If you don’t want politics to intrude on this board, you might consider not writing hundreds and hundreds of words of highly political comments in response to ONE SENTENCE that you found offensive. If you don’t think the things you’ve written here are just as partisan and potentially offensive to many readers here as FaB’s remark was to you, you’re dreaming. PLEASE stop. There is no excuse for you to drag your grudges toward other Internet communities that you’ve had arguments with onto this board. “He did it first” is not an excuse.And for what it’s worth, if our hosts made equally flippant comments about a group I belong to, I would not stop reading this board. I would probably voice an opinion about it. I would not go on and on and on fanning the flames and dragging the entire history of the United States into it– or if I got carried away and started doing that, and had this many people begging me to give it a rest, I sure hope I would give it a rest.    

    this post for the win.

    FaB made a single line as an offcolour funny joke like he ALWAYS DOES about EVERYTHING. I found it a little offensive when he said something unflattering about fat people, and then I thought — oh wait, it’s fuckign FaBio, this is what he does!

    The only people who made this into a political circus are the people who came on and wrote dissertations defending themselves from one joking sentance.

    Shine on, FaB, and I’ll be bummed to fuck if haters hating makes you censor yourself in the future.

  244. Josh Parker
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Yes, well as far as I’m concerned some watery tart throwin’ swords at you is no basis for a system of moderation! I didn’t get a website because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me!

    Believe me, I do have a sense of humor.

  245. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    Word.

  246. Rose
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    I just have one more question for the anti-gay marriage brigade.

    What about people who don’t want children and would in fact possibly take their own lives if they ever found themselves having children? Are they allowed to get married? Is it unconstitutional to not like children? Hrm!

    Glad I’m Canadian :p

  247. DH87
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Josh Parker: we’re done backing down and letting you ridicule us and attack us with impunity.

    My friend,
    Please listen to yourself. This sounds like a direct quote from” Triumph of the Will.”

  248. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Rose: I just have one more question for the anti-gay marriage brigade.What about people who don’t want children and would in fact possibly take their own lives if they ever found themselves having children? Are they allowed to get married? Is it unconstitutional to not like children? Hrm!Glad I’m Canadian :p    

    I’m the Answer Man tonight. Rose, I actually have some insight into this. My family is somewhat insanely Christian, and the subject was brought up at their church while I was attending a Christening service. As you can imagine, there were a great many churchgoers opposed to the very thought, but I found it interesting to see where the divide was.

    With the older people, it was simply viewed as “wrong,” “immoral,” etc. The traditional stuff. What I found interesting were the views of some of the younger people, who had apparently been informed that if such a bill were to pass and gays were allowed to marry, that their church would then be forced to perform the marriages. Which of course made me laugh out loud. My brother then leaned over and whispered, “You know it would happen eventually. Somewhere, some gay couple out there would get their attention fix by trying to force their way into the most conservative church they could find.”

    Which… well, I couldn’t argue. I could see that happening, someday, somewhere. There are as many attention whores in the gay community as there are in the straight one (sure, probably more). Just to make the news? I could see someone trying something stupid. One couple in one-hundred thousand.

    But the fear of that happening–not in our church!–was literally palpable.

    So I think it’s a fear of, “Well, we don’t hate them, but if we give them THIS… then who knows HOW far they’ll go?”

    Classic fear due to misunderstanding.

  249. Ed
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    LOL!!! Godwin’s Law FTW!!! (It really was just a matter of time, wasn’t it? And YOU are the winner DH87!! Bwwwahahahahahahaha!!!!!

    DH87:
    My friend,
    Please listen to yourself. This sounds like a direct quote from” Triumph of the Will.”    

  250. isenriver
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Rob O Sevens,

    I’m Australian and I find it just as perplexing/weird/funny. The US is an interesting place.

  251. The Young Wolf
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    This morning I looked at the WiC homepage and saw around 45 comments and then a few minutes ago saw over 200 comments. My hypothesis: ‘Oh, looks like a bunch of people didn’t like FaBio’s tea-party joke and decided to reveal themselves as trolls.’

    Lo and behold, I Was Right!

    Troll (noun): 1. a mythical creature that lives under a bridge and likes to eat billy goats…
    2. An idiot on the Internet that has nothing better to do than start a flame war.

    Trolls appear in many forms. They derail forum topics, write long and detailed writeups bashing an article or forum poster, derail the forum, and bring the entire readership up in arms against them for no other reason than to grab attention or to satisfy some sort of self-righteous sh!t. It appears that some trolls have made their mark on this forum, bringing a negative light to an otherwise funny, entertaining, and informative article. It’s just silly, folks. If you don’t like it and for some reason read too much into it and view it as an EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE VERBAL ASSAULT ON YOUR POLITICAL GROUP OF CHOICE, read/comment on some other site. We won’t miss you. At all. There are many, many people reading this site. Besides, FaBio’s jest wasn’t even aimed at the Tea Party because of its political beliefs, it was because Tea Party rallies are getting a lot of media attention and people involved in them are very passionate and engaging (at least that’s how I read it). Thank you, FaBio, for retaining a sense of humor while reading through all the idiot comments and appreciating the productive ones simultaneously and, basically, continuing to be awesome and providing us something interesting to read/more news about GoT.

    ANYWAY, interesting that they said will have, not would have. I like how everyone in the media is assuming that GoT is going to be a BIG deal, since, well, it should be since it’s like, uh, the best thing ever. Being a straight man, I would not, ahem, enjoy watching a Loras/Renly ‘prayer’ scene, but I would get how it would be artistically justified, key to Loras’s character arc, a way to demonstrate the character dynamic to the *cough* less intelligent and perceptive *cough* section of the GIANT, MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE INEVITABLE NEW-TO-THE-SERIES GoT FAN HORDE!!!!! Yeah I would just fast-forward that scene on the DVD. And rewatch the Dany sex scenes over and over…and over…hey FaBio if you get her number please let me know…

    Oh yeah and mummer’s post FTW. And I have to agree with FaBio that indigo isn’t a legit color. It’s one of those silly secondary colors like yellow-green. Which is, when you come down to it, just a lighter version of green. Kind of like indigo is just blue-purple.

  252. DH87
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Ed,
    In this case, I’m more than happy to be declared the loser if it stops the posting at 251. :)

    (Thanks to The Economist [2007] re Godwin’s Law: “a good rule in most discussions is that the first person to call the other a Nazi automatically loses the argument.”)

    Note: I commented on the mode and manner of expression, not the views held.

  253. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Rinoa De la Pica,

    Aww, thanks man! I always wonder (not unlike everyone else, I’m sure) if people read my posts. I can be quite silly sometimes.

    And yes, the idea that someone can agree or disagree with homosexuality is ridiculous, since it implies that one can choose either to be homosexual or heterosexual (or bisexual!). And honestly (and I’ve felt this way for a long time) if I, for one, could choose my sexual orientation, I would still choose the one I am, because it’s a part of who I am as a person and how I’ve developed, etc, etc. It seems as though people should be able to just be who they are without having to be afraid.

    I can’t recall who brought it up exactly, but I also feel like the question of the Kingsguard (and other such organizations that might exist) as well as the Night’s Watch as options for gay men is very interesting. Because the church in Westeros is obviously VERY different from the medieval church, it seems as though the Night’s Watch might take on much of the role that monasteries would have had in our own Middle Ages (in terms of that particular aspect of life– obviously not the only purpose of monasteries, haha). Not to suggest that half the Night’s Watch are gay, as I find that unlikely, but rather, that I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a sizable number.

    One other thing I would like to say about ASOIAF in general, is that I’m glad there aren’t just one of two gay characters. Sure, most of the others are only minor, or are merely hinted at, but even that is so much more progressive and realistic than most books and television shows out there. Often I’ll watch something and, if there’s a gay character at all, it’s a “token” gay character, who may or may not fall in love with a guest gay character for one or two episodes. It’s the same reason why I’ve found shows like Queer as Folk and The L Word unbearable (well, not the only reason). I find them unrealistic because none of the characters are straight. You could say the same things about racial diversity on television, although that’s definitely getting a lot better.
    Even though I’m sure the writers and producers didn’t intend it, for instance, while watching Battlestar Galactica (which I very much enjoyed), it always struck me how hilariously homogenous the cast was. For a show that was all about internal character conflict and drama, and which was supposedly set in a futuristic, forward-thinking world, it seemed peculiar that so few gay characters existed, and that most of the cast were white. And yes, there were those webisodes about Gaeta, but it seemed more of an afterthought than anything else. Sure, I gay character shouldn’t be thrown in just for the sake of it. The problem is moreso that it doesn’t appear to occur much to people that there could be one, or better yet, more than one gay person on a show/ship/in a neighborhood. It doesn’t occur to most people that a very real and natural part of life, as we live it, is not being portrayed.
    I feel sorry for all those token gay characters (the only gays in the village), since they appear to be the only gay people in their fictional universes. What a bummer. Must get lonely.

  254. Brian
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    I too would appreciate the political jabs be left out of the front page news blogs. Doesn’t matter if “it was only tongue-in-cheek” or “just a joke”, it betrays Fabio’s political leanings, which then reflect on the rest of the site. This is a place to discuss GoT, not politics. Just take a look at this comments thread to see what it did to the place.

    So please remove from your vocabulary any words that are closely associated with any political movements. Same for racism and religion. I’d say sexuality also, but that’s already here I suppose.

  255. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Not to say that one day this won’t happen, but most individual parishes (even if their church technically allows gay marriage) still have the option to veto a wedding actually taking place on church grounds. And this is true, even if the minister is fine performing the ceremony.
    In the town where I grew up, there was a lesbian couple who wanted to get married in the local united church. The minister was happy to perform the ceremony, but it was put to a vote amongst the convocation first. I have no idea how that turned out, but I found it kind of disgusting that a group of people who wouldn’t even be attending the event and who had nothing to do with the couple had the power to stop them from expressing themselves religiously and romantically.
    It was even more frustrating this summer, when two of my close friends (a lesbian couple— one of whom I have converted to ASOIAF!) were hoping to get married together at a childhood church back in Germany (one of them is German and the other American, although they both go to school in Canada). Again, much as in the earlier case, the minister was fine performing the ceremony. They had the permission of the congregation for the wedding to take place and all the plans made, etc, when the congregation decided to change its mind. They had to go pretty far from where they’d intended to find somewhere they could marry, since most churches require that you attend their particular church for a certain amount of time before you can marry there.
    Not sure of the legal side of things, but it seems the case that, even with church law supposedly in their favour, what’s written on paper and what actually goes down are two very different things.

  256. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    * Ugh, “congregation.” :/ I think I need sleep.

  257. GaR
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Brian: I too would appreciate the political jabs be left out of the front page news blogs.Doesn’t matter if “it was only tongue-in-cheek” or “just a joke”, it betrays Fabio’s political leanings, which then reflect on the rest of the site.This is a place to discuss GoT, not politics.Just take a look at this comments thread to see what it did to the place.So please remove from your vocabulary any words that are closely associated with any political movements.Same for racism and religion.I’d say sexuality also, but that’s already here I suppose.    

    “Please change your content to things that do not offend me personally because I can’t deal that.”

    Seriously though, no one has the right to not be offended. Harden up.

  258. coltaine777
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    We need a new post…I for one will be happy when this flame war ends…at least on this site…

  259. Stephanie
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    I’m going to voice my opinion, then I’m going to be done with the political discussion; I won’t be responding to anyone who tries to argue with me, because good GRIEF!!!! Let it END!!!! I really hate that this board has been taken over by a political argument. Politics is NOT what we come to this site to read about! Come on & let it die already! No one is going to change anyone’s mind about this issue anyway. The way I see it is that the author made an off-hand remark, stating something that is widely believed by many people. Whether false or not, & whether you like it or not, there is definitely a stereotype that Tea Partiers are homophobic.

    So, can we please just let this one go & assume Fabihoff didn’t intend to make a political statement or upset anyone & get back to the important stuff….A Song of Ice & Fire!!!

  260. Kana
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Where do you think our laws against murder came from? From the Ten Commandments, that’s where from.

    China’s certainly going to be surprised at their christianity when they hear about this in the morning.

  261. Greatjon
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    People, please! Before anyone posts more political garbage, please take into consideration that you’re worsening my condition. I am afflicted with an *obsessive compulsive disorder which forces me to read every single comment to every single update on this website. And yet, I fear that if I see the words “gay,” “tea party,” or especially “Sarah Palin” one more time… my head will literally explode. The top will pop off and my brains will fall out all over the floor. So I beg you, please, think of my brains and end this madness.

    *Preemptive apologies to anyone with a real compulsive disorder

  262. Czarnian
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    Right wingers are known for their sence of humour….

  263. Entropy
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    But Stephanie, what an awesome thread. I for one do not want it to end. This conversation is immensely entertaining. I personally like the added depth a visible gay relationship will add to the program. As long as Ned isn’t gay. A proud American Conservative.

  264. Vic Sage
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    I have been operating on the assumption that Loras is gay and never gave a thought about who his lover is .Never mattered to me.As for The BlackFish I don’t think he’s gay not at all he’s just not interested in marriage and who can blame him? FAB,Indigo blows!

    PS: I agree with the other posters this is not the place for politics.

  265. Burning T
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    Are you (who are americans maybe?) people can debate about politics with these kinds of attitude? That’s fasinating! Fantastic!
    If this debate were on my country’s website, well……I guess we been barking each others about ‘How your grand-grand-grand father was ****** and **** and not ****, and so I’ll sue you, and kill you and so on and on and on.(without any conclusion…)
    Anyway, if we should debate about politics in THIS blog, wasn’t that for politics about Westeros ??

  266. Feeblegenius
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:29 am | Permalink

    I love threads like this, it’s entertainment you couldn’t buy if you wanted to.

    I’m offended that you’re offended that I’m offending you. Please stop all this political/religious debate…as soon as I step down from my pedestal! He started it! Nuh uh! I’m tellin! OMG Moses burned on the cross and Hitler was a cat-hater! I have lots of gay friends and they’ll tell you I’m totally cool, but…gays shouldn’t do stuff! I like taxes therefore I hate gays! God doesn’t love you because you spelled Shiboleth wrong! Sorry, that wasn’t in the form of a question. Killing unborn babies is wrong…but what if they’re gay babies!?

    If I offended anyone with my off-color, ill-timed, left foot in, right foot out, misplaced remarks…good!!

    Iloveitiloveitiloveitiloveit

  267. Richard A. Forsyth
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:39 am | Permalink

    Loved Ricky Gervais’ standup. Felt a little guilty because it was so rude but I always laugh at that stuff the most for some reason. I think its the tension. Anyway, Loras and Renly? I feel so naive; this is the first I’ve ever even thought of them having a little something-something on the side. I can see it and I can also not see it. I think you have to read it in either way.

  268. Richard A. Forsyth
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    High fives to Greatjohn’s comments, though I did find all this political stuff entertaining in a way. Don’t want politics in this discussion? Don’t bring it up, even as a joke. Freakin’ Americans are crazy about the stuff. It’s like waving heroin in front of an addict. You’re gonna get a blitz-out. But of course, funny again, so many people taking umbrage from political talk when GOT is the most political fantasy book I’ve ever read. I read loads of parallels to modern times, but without much of a specific point of view from Martin (with respect to conservative, progressive, etc.). Oddly, his fiction seems more objective about politics than his blog. Though, perhaps that’s because his books are not about politics, per se, but about people enmeshed in politics. I find both engaging, personally. Thanks all for the entertainment tonight. Had a bad day. This ruckus cheered me up.

  269. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:49 am | Permalink

    Josh Parker,

    This one is way off the mark. No one is intrusively moderating the comments. I personally dislike your suggestion that anyone is being censored on this site because of their opinion very much.

    Sometimes comments land in the because the automatic filters behind the site do not like it for some reason. We have to manually approve these, but we are not always around to do so. Please send us a message bringing out attention to it in order to make it happen faster.

  270. EvilClosetMonkey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    Warning: Minor Rant ahead

    Josh,
    America is indeed a secular nation. Yes, a large percentage of the current population is Christian and many of the founding fathers were Christians (though a surprising number were not) but that does not make the nation a Christian one.
    Also, as another poster said, the Ten Commandments were written by the Jews, so the whole ‘American law is based on the Ten Commandments therefore America is a Christian nation’ argument doesn’t really hold water. Also, please don’t tell me that you’re saying that the ideas that murder and adultery are bad is exclusively Christian (and/or Jewish). As Kana said, China (and a lot of other nations) would be rather surprised to discover their laws are based on Christian teachings.

    Rant Over

  271. The Rabbit
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    Take it easy, guys :)

    I just can not understand how some people took seriously FaB s joke.
    Hey, that s our FaBio, he mock everything and everyone that breaths on this Earth., but yet he is the one of most kind and most warm people over here.
    He just does not the deserve the bitchfest (hey, I like this word!) some are throwing here.

  272. EvilClosetMonkey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:41 am | Permalink

    As others noted above, the Renly-Loras relationship sheds interesting light on the rest of the Tyrells (especially Margaery). It must be interesting to play the queen to someone that is sleeping with your brother. And it seems that the Tyrells are rather accepting of Loras and Renly as they are. Granted, that might just be because of the power that relationship brings to the Tyrells as a whole but there is room to read it in another way. Makes me wonder if Randyll Tarly knew of Renly and Loras, he doesn’t seem like someone that would sit well with.

  273. clemintine
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:47 am | Permalink

    Josh Parker: America is not a secular nation. It was founded on Christian principles. I will hear no argument on that; I’ve heard all the “founding fathers were atheist” horseshit and it’s just that; horseshit. They weren’t perfect men but they were followers of Christianity.

    People also used to crap on privies and use mercury as a medication back in the day. Does it matter who you nation’s founders’ principals were? Things change. It’s called progress. Thank goodness I’m from a country that has a proper Charter of Rights and Freedoms and where healthcare is a basic human right. Now that I’ve moved to a nation where I have to pay private insurance for it, and where human rights are arbitrarily voted away, I appreciate my homeland all that much more.

    Josh Parker: I was trying to show that those against gay marriage may not necessarily be raging homophobes but might have legitimate complaints about it.

    And people who think that blacks should sit at the back of the bus aren’t necessarily racist either! Look, here’s my black best friend/spouse/co-woker/character to prove that I am completely incapable of racist acts and saying racist things!

    Josh Parker: I mean, I didn’t like it when clementine insisted on calling Americans “USians” (how would you even pronounce that? “Youessians”? “Usshions?”) but I would never advocate banning her.

    So what, now I’m like your e-non-USian-friend that you can hold up an example of how tolerant you are of people from nations other than yours? Thanks for not advocating my banishment. Because somehow using an acceptable and accurate word in passing is on par with spewing post after post filled with hatred, right? I am not your e-non-USian-friend, and why would you think I go by a female pronoun.

    Ahem, back to the actual topic at hand and not this crazed drailment…

    Yay for gay sex! Seriously, my thoughts are similar to what other people have said. Television is a different medium and I like the possibility of showing things in GoT that plausibly happened, but was never shown on the page because of the POV limitations in the book. I get the impression that D&D are reverent enough to the source material that they wouldn’t add stuff that wasn’t there in the book. Adding Renly/Loras, Cersei/Robert scenes etc. that were going on behind the curtain I’m all for (though the addition of new prostitute-characters for Tyrion to sleep with has me a bit weary because it’s not like GoT doesn’t have enough characters). If there were to add say, Robert/Caitlin, or something stupid like that then I’d be up and arms. Gay sex, straight sex, other sex, bring it on! As long as it moves the story forwards and isn’t gratuitous, and doesn’t turn the series into a shagfest I’m good.

  274. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:27 am | Permalink

    I kind of like how the L+R relationship is only hinted at in the books. It makes it more interesting. I don’t think the sexual aspect of their relationship is very interesting, but rather how the society in Westeros look upon gay relationships. I think the way the Westerosi almost never talk about homosexuality, except in veiled insults and jests, is telling. Perhaps I am totally wrong here, but I feel that it is more politically correct these days to show the gay-sex up front (thus presenting it as a non-problematic thing) than to present it as a stigmatizing deviation in the society of the setting, by means of keeping it hidden from both the Westerosi AND the viewers of the show. And I would prefer that political correctness NEVER gets in the way of creativity. Well, I don’t now if I’m making any sense. I trust D&D though, and do not really worry about this as long as they stay true to the characters.

    OT section:

    Pardon my English, but I must confess that I have some strong negative prejudice against USA, but at least I am aware of it and know not to act upon it. I think the way this thread has derailed is one example of why I harbor this prejudice. I lurk a lot here, reading almost every comment. Do I have cause for complaint when not every comment is interesting or pleasing to me? No, of course not. This site is not about ME. It is about GoT. I hope all you firebrands out there will remember this fact (and grow some humility as well perhaps). And you other wonderfully wonderful people, I love y’all, but please DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. (Oops, but did I just do that? Oh well…back to lurk mode I guess.)

  275. Rinoa De la Pica
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Priceless post! :D

    I am in fact, ignoring politics-related comments. As ‘mummer’ said earlier, it’s the wisest idea.

  276. ipod
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    It probably depends on what kind of show HBO wants to make. There’s certainly a market for gay sex. (True Blood taps into the super sexualized, and that’s half the point of the show. :) But GoT’s story isn’t furthered by confirming their relationship. Renly’s not marrying HIM, nor is he winning a kingdom for Loras. Confirming like that would be throwing us a bone. Personally, I found all the snide comments and complete obliviousness (from the ladies) on one of the kingdom’s Best Kept Secrets hilarious, and half the fun was always the wondering if I were reading too much into it and being increasingly sure I wasn’t. Taking that subtlety away would be taking away from Martin’s clever storytelling (and possibly Finn’s acting opportunity lol). However, if HBO feels the need to go that route in the TV medium, I’d understand. If they make it super sexy, I will think they’re being somewhat untrue to Martin’s storycrafting.

    Yeah, I guess this makes me a purist.

  277. ipod
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot,

    Word about PCness not interfering with creative process please! (Hahaha about the Modern Fam smooching scandal)

  278. clemintine
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    I think Moon Boy is a more apropos role for Stephen Harper :p

  279. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    R+L = L+R. It is known.

    Back to my field of expertise:

    Stella Maris: That said, the Blackfish being gay never had occured to me, but I can see it now. In a very James Buchanan way, of course. It will be interesting to see if George takes that anywhere.
    [snip]
    I would not be so fast to label Dacey Mormont a “butch” lesbian – we do have Brienne afterall, who is (as far as we know) a straight female who is only challenging social norms. Dacey, much like Brienne, was compelled to (literally) put herself in a man’s shoes, albeit for different reasons. I think the jury is still out on that one.

    Thanks Stella Maris, I knew nothing about James Buchanan (only unmarried POTUS) and Googling him I discovered a lot. A very very interesting comparison with Brynden. Food for thought.

    As for Dacey Mormont, she is (was, alas) another one of my faves and a character with much to say, but I think we have no inkling about where her interests lie. I hope what follows are not spoilers; it’s just some data about a minor character. Otherwise feel free to black it out. Maege’s eldest daughter, and a warrior in the Bear Island tradition, speaks highly of the Young Wolf, routinely serves as his bodyguard with other young warriors, does dance with him at the wedding. Catelyn thinks she has chosen to stay with him while Maege and her other daughters leave, but sees no particular interest towards Robb in this, other than admiration and loyalty. Later, Dacey asks a young Frey to dance but he refuses. This says nothing at all about her sexuality; we just don’t get to know her enough.

    Steve Hugh Westenra:
    Blackfish Blues,He could be romantic and stubborn and gay.

    Oh yeah! I’d be delighted to see this IN SEASON 2. *hint, hint, HBO*

    Rinoa De la Pica:
    Glad to see some nice commenters as well (I love reedgirl, Blackflish Blues, Steve Hugh Westenra… Thanks guys, I love reading you every time lol)

    Wow, thanks, Rinoa, your posts are so very entertaining too. I didn’t expect this, you made me blush! :D

    Josh Parker:
    As for the Blackfish, I do think he’s severely closeted. Why else would his being told to marry cause him to not speak to his brother ever again? I hassled my brother that he was in his late twenties and not married, and he just laughed it off. He certainly wasn’t so angry he went off to live with our cousins so he wouldn’t have to see me or speak to me. (Ironically he’s now happily married and I’m separated with an impending divorce.)

    I think it’s Hoster who refused to speak with Brynden again, or rather “refused to speak his name” (quote from memory). Still I think his refusal to marry has complicated reasons, as mummer said and I quoted below. Being drawn to men might be only one facet of it. We shall see… I hope! BTW, sorry for your troubles.

    mummer:
    About the Blackfish– that sure is a popular explanation and it seems plausible to me, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to be more complicated than that. GRRM has just barely started delving into the history of the Tullys, and we’ve only heard a very brief mention of the nature of the dispute between Hoster and Brynden. I’m pretty sure he’s going to step into the spotlight a bit more in ADWD… and whatever the truth turns out to be, probably a lot of us will be slapping our foreheads and going “D’oh! Of course!”

    I so wish it were true. I fear that GRRM will come to a point where he’s forced to cut dry branches, and the Tullys might be among the first. But I hope I’m just paranoid, and that your prediction comes true. Did I already put forth here my theory that Brynden might have taken the Faith vows in his youth?

    Fearing that I might get moderated, I’ll post a separate rant regarding politics (puke). BTW, WiC, I’ve never thanked you for your answer about moderation because I’ve been switching computers often, but thank you :D

  280. Spartan
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    I think it is a mistake to use the “gay” term on Loras and Renly. ASOIAF is heavyly inspired by the early middle ages (at least, Westeros and all the Lords and Sers stuff), and, at that time sexual behaviour was not a thing that can be easily labeled as in our times. In fact, there’s a lot of homoeroticism (read a bit about Richard the Lionheart), but people usually didn’t match in what today we call gay. Today we simpify a lot on the sex stuff. If he do sex with other guy, he’s gay…. in the X century, things are not as simple, and altohugh one guy could have sex with other, the affective side can go to the other side easily. In my opinion, Renly is a hedonist more than a homosexual.

  281. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,
    wah, I got moderated all the same. But people, do not take it personally, I think most of the posts on this thread that get too long are automatically moderated.

    While I’m here, I humbly suggest to the WiC three knights that when they upgrade the comment section, beside the “edit” button they add the numbering of comments. I’ve been going CRAZY looking for the posts I wanted to respond to. Come on, be mindful of small-brained trouts. :D

  282. aaron
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    back to the topic at hand, my biggest fear in the renly/loras love angle on the show is that they are going to make too much of it. hbo shows seem to have a tendency to go a little bit overboard with the sex lately (true blood spends about 2/3 of every episode with naked people doing absolutely nothing to advance the story lines) and AGoT, while there is a large part of the story that involves sex jamie and cerci the entirety of this series is more about humanity and not so much about one of the kings sleeping with his wife’s brother. i honestly don’t care either way who is or isn’t gay. i’m mostly trying to figure out how that early into the season loras and renly are together.

  283. Steve the Pirate
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    The Anti-American sentiment is just straight-up ignorant and silly Yep, I’m going to say it flat-out with no qualifications.

    As for the gay and sex issues, I think people are freaking out way too early about any potential love scenes or excessive onscreen nudity. Let’s wait and see. PR tends to play up sexiness for obvious reasons. GoT is not True Blood, a show that can make up its own plots now including bizarre nudity and pointless (and awesome) sex scenes.
    And people who think that Renly and Loras were hinted at and they wish it would stay only hinted at? They’re a bit blind. The Renly and Loras relationship was obvious early on their appearances.
    I think it’s safe to apply the “Gay” label to Loras, as he isn’t messing around with any women, and has no interest in doing so. Renly is more questionable, as its implied that he was shtupping Margaery, and that she wasn’t a virgin after being married to him. He might really be gay, and been thinking of men when having sex with his wife, as many closeted men do, but it’s impossible to tell at this point. I don’t think there’s any harm in calling him gay or bi. Whatever floats your boat.

  284. Casey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    I don’t care much for this idea of bringing the relationship of renly and loras full screen. It was done subtley and tastfully in GRRM’s books so much so that alot of poster didn’t even realise that it existed. I feel this is a gimmick used by HBO and the Directors to hit at the LGBT and Yaoi fan girls market that is completly unescisary. “Wow look there’s a subtle relationship with Loras and Renly, lets take that subtlty and rape it with gratuitous man on man action to realy rake in the raitings.” Please… its been done to death, you are so much better than that. That doesnt just go for the Gay relationships in GoT i hope they choose to keep the books way of dealing with relationships and sex scenes. Sometimes its bold, but its always tasteful and plot driven.

  285. Spartan
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate: The Anti-American sentiment is just straight-up ignorant and silly Yep, I’m going to say it flat-out with no qualifications.

    Ufff… i don’t want to go into that… but let me say that there are several countries that have good reasons to think that way. Read about the american intervencionism in Chile, for example (assesinations, political repression,endoresement of a dictatiorial regime, etc.)

  286. Alwyn Joseph
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Casey,

    The show needs to do well in order to run for more seasons, subtlety simply wouldn’t cut it with a large portion of the audience. And its not like they can spend 10 mins every episode concentrating on renly and loras, they’ve got an entire book to get through and only ten episodes, so don’t expect sex true blood or spartacus style.

  287. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    WARNING: POLITICAL POST (or not)

    My beloved American cousins, do you consider your politics so highly divisive? And you, my dear Canadians and Australians, are so surprised by it? I’m Italian. Heh. Amateurs.

    *stands up* Hi, I’m Blackfish Blues, I’m hetero and suffering from depressive anxiety. I get a full-fledged panic attack every time the tone of the conversation reaches a certain level of violence. We are many, probably even on this blog, but we’re too anxious to come out. :D I think a moderate discussion would be a kindness and a gesture of respect for us, just like not opening the windows would be respectful if there were a person with a bad cold in the room.

    FaB made a political joke, in good faith, and what happens? Name-calling, exactly what he did not wish. A heightened level of verbal violence. An increase in vulgar words, and I’m not one who is fazed by it, so if I noticed, it’s probably true.

    I think a lot of people delurked just to react to FaB’s post, either to cheer or complain. (Indigo sucks! No, indigo rules, I’ll never come to this site again!) ;) FaB, I love you. You know this. Because everybody loves you. From someone who loves you, would it be so out of place to remove that phrase about “indigo” from your original post? I hate censorship, but I don’t think this is the case. I don’t care about the content of the words. This blog had a very precise orientation from the beginning: GOT ONLY. It was so wonderful, truly “a safe place” as someone said. Now we might have started a trend that will poison it. With a simple couple of words. Words can kill.

    Last night I was thinking: are we really talking about homosexuality? Or are we talking selfishly about OURSELVES? Apart from people like Steve and Rinoa who related their own experiences, and all those who bravely struggle to talk about Loras and Renly and the Blackfish, what has all the political brawl (and I include this very post) done for homosexuality? “I’m right because I belong to the Sewing Circle.” “No, I’m right because I’m for the Quiche Lorraine, and you suck.” “No, I’m right because the Sewing Circle supports Indigo and I have indigo friends.” “No, I’m a Quiche Lorraine and so I support Indigo more than you do.” Can you see it? It’s all I, I, I, I, I.

    I’m a space buff, and I was doubly shocked by the Tucson shooting, because Gabrielle Giffords is the wife of Astronaut Mark Kelly, the commander of Shuttle Discovery’s upcoming flight. Scott Kelly, current commander of the International Space Station and brother of Mark, said this from space, while asking Houston for a moment of silence:

    “We have a unique vantage point here aboard the ISS. As we look out our windows and see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately it is not. These days we’re (…) reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict on one another. Not just with our actions, but also with our irresponsible words. We’re better than this. We must do better.

  288. Casey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Alwyn Joseph,

    I guess your right, I just hope that it sticks to whats important to the story and doesn’t just start throwing it in for impact value.

  289. Steve the Pirate
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Spartan,

    I’m aware of some political fracas and problems. That doesn’t give you or anyone else an excuse to label and insult 300 million people because of the actions of a few people. People in power invariably do dickish things. Most of us have no power, and don’t wish any harm to other countries.
    That would be like me saying all the inhabitants of a middle eastern country were [any judgmental/rude/prejudiced word goes here] because of the violent actions of a handful of people. I don’t say those things, so don’t label all Americans when you clearly know so little about us.

  290. Dom
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues: My beloved American cousins, do you consider your politics so highly divisive? And you, my dear Canadians and Australians, are so surprised by it? I’m Italian. Heh. Amateurs.“    

    Compatriota (o compagno di sventure, che dir si voglia)! :D

  291. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    Hah! Salve, fratello! Sono una compagnA di sventure. :D

  292. MirriMaz
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate,

    I don’t think anyone meant to be anti-American, people just got carried away with a discussion.

  293. Zack
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues: “We have a unique vantage point here aboard the ISS. As we look out our windows and see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately it is not. These days we’re (…) reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict on one another. Not just with our actions, but also with our irresponsible words. We’re better than this. We must do better.“

    I don’t like the idea of living in a world where everyone makes only the most bland, lowest-common-denominator jokes, for fear of offending someone. Jay Leno has that market covered, and it’s not fun to see.

    Words didn’t put a bullet in Giffords’ brain. Some sociopath did.

    Not that I’m opposed to the idea of a civil political dialogue. It would be a wonderful change of pace.

    I just don’t believe in giving one group special treatment when it comes to being exempt from jokes. Nobody has the right not to be offended.

  294. Andrija Andrew P
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    and here I thought that European Parliament was a cluster…fart. Anyways you Americans take all these things much too seriously, I wonder what would you say if someone like Berlusconi were to be elected as President… XD

  295. Spartan
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Andrija Andrew P:

    and here I thought that European Parliament was a cluster…fart. Anyways you Americans take all these things much too seriously, I wonder what would you say if someone like Berlusconi were to be elected as President… XD

    Berlusconi is a shame to italians and, extensively, to european countries (i’m spanish). I’m expecting him to quit or being banned from his charge.

  296. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    WARNING: POLITICAL POST

    Zack:
    Words didn’t put a bullet in Giffords’ brain. Some sociopath did.

    Yes. But someone put words into that sociopath’s brain, both from his “side” and the “other side”.

    NOOOO NOT BERLUSCONI DON’T MENTION HIM I’VE KILLED FOR LESS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *dies*

  297. Steve the Pirate
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    MirriMaz,

    Um, some people are actually admitting to prejudice about Americans. Add them to the ones who are simply making rude and dismissive comments about Americans. Admitting or being open with one’s prejudice doesn’t make it acceptable.

  298. Czarnian
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Wolfheart: Wolfh

    Are you sure you are comfortable being that close to another man?

  299. Spartan
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues: NOOOO NOT BERLUSCONI DON’T MENTION HIM I’VE KILLED FOR LESS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *dies*

    Ok.Ok. Berlus-what??? ;)

  300. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    Spartan,
    I love you. Will you marry me? ;)

  301. Spartan
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    Um

    Blackfish Blues: I love you. Will you marry me?

    Umm… no. I’m 100% straight (well… 99%, i like Cher…)

  302. Dynasty9
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Spartan,

    Cher is quite handsome.

  303. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Spartan,
    Alas, my usual luck, I hit on another woman. :D Or are you a metro-sexual man who likes Cher? Then you have a chance!

    Oh, I did get bi-curious, ONCE, but then I discovered women turned me down just as often as men. :D

    Hey WiC, FaB and HMR, how about turning the blog into a lonely hearts club? Better than politics!!!

  304. Dynasty9
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    And I thought I visited this site to take a break from our painful political situation and the arguments of the world. It does say something to quality of knowledge that GRRM’ reader’s exhibit, but why do we not save the sparing for MSNBC or CNN web sites and enjoy ourselves here. Pretty sure this was not a good idea, but whatever.

  305. Spartan
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    Oh… i’m a guy who reads fantasy and play rpgs… and likes Cher. Let’s end this topic now…

  306. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Spartan I’m a lady who reads fantasy and plays RPGs and occasionally likes Cher! Pleased to meet you, topic ended. :D

  307. ethelred
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Spartan:
    Berlusconi is a shame to italians and, extensively, to european countries (i’m spanish). I’m expecting him to quit or being banned from his charge.    

    Won’t he just bribe a judge again and then get reelected?

  308. Andrija Andrew P
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    ethelred,

    Yeah possibly, but who will we have then to say to the news media and the world at large that he wishes to be as tanned as Obama or that he is “the Jesus Christ of politics. I am a patient victim, I put up with everyone, I sacrifice myself for everyone.”

  309. Victoria Cole
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Casey: I don’t care much for this idea of bringing the relationship of renly and loras full screen. It was done subtley and tastfully in GRRM’s books so much so that alot of poster didn’t even realise that it existed. I feel this is a gimmick used by HBO and the Directors to hit at the LGBT and Yaoi fan girls market that is completly unescisary. “Wow look there’s a subtle relationship with Loras and Renly, lets take that subtlty and rape it with gratuitous man on man action to realy rake in the raitings.” Please… its been done to death, you are so much better than that. That doesnt just go for the Gay relationships in GoT i hope they choose to keep the books way of dealing with relationships and sex scenes. Sometimes its bold, but its always tasteful and plot driven.  Quote  Reply

    I am with you on this so much. I would have prefered for there to be subltle build up. With either the relatiosnhip being made more prominent in Season 2 or shown later on in flash backs.

    Because as it is right now, it just seems that they are putting the relationship to the forefront inside for the sake of political correctness or to appease a certain segment. Having read AfterElton’s coverage of Spartacus Blood and Sand, They are more interested in how many gay people are on the show, and how they are treated, as opposed to just seeing good tv.

  310. Ellen
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    I LOVE the Loras/Renly relationship, and I’m glad the series is fleshing it out. It’s the most romantic one in the books. Loras’ line about the sun setting? It just broke my heart. I hope the show will do the relationship justice, and not just include it for titillation and shock value, like I worry the Dany/Doreah scenes might be.

    ***OT***
    I love this site, I do, but if it devolves into something in any way political, I’m out of here. (And I’m as apolitical as they come.) It’s OK in a message-board type site, where you can ignore those threads if you choose, but the format of this site makes it hard to skip them.

    The original comment was inappropriate, for a site that’s serves a general community, and is not supposed to be a personal blog. The response was worse. Keep it to your blogs, guys. Or, one of the millions of sites where people can compete to be cute and insulting and clever, while spouting Wikipedia articles and statistics and lots of righteous indignation.

  311. OldGran
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Anyone know the answer to this? Whyizzat that hetero couples move in together, get pregnant, buy a house, get engaged,have the baby. No wedding in sight. Gay couples on the other hand, are hell bent in rushing down to city hall and tying the knot?

  312. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Casey,

    I don’t think it’s a gimmick. I think it’s just that this is a chance for the writers to show more of some of the non-POV characters. For some, this may involve sex and for others it probably won’t. To me, it makes sense to show Loras and Renly more than many of the other minor-ish characters, since their relationship will likely be surprising to the audience, and also because it’s an integral part of the characters. I don’t expect that it will be twenty minutes long and take up half an episode (I hope not, anyway!), but it could be used to great effect, and yes, it could be done creatively and tastefully. The same for the rest of the sex scenes.
    Sex scenes aside though, I’m just very excited to see where they go with these characters, and also with many of the other non-POV characters. Who knows, maybe we’ll get some extra Sandor Clegane? It’s a chance, I think, for the readership to see behind closed doors (both figuratively and literally) at what non-POV characters were doing all the way back in the first book.
    In the case of Renly, I think it will also make it that much harder to watch when he does die. Most of my sympathy for Renly came from Maester Cressen’s inner thoughts during the prologue for ACoK. I think it will do characters like Renly a lot of good to be shown on television and to have their stories fleshed out a bit.
    After all, these books are ultimately about human drama and inner conflict, etc. I think the Renly/Loras storyline has a lot to offer in terms of both of those things. And to be clear, I would say the same if one of them was a woman.
    I’m all for material that adds something to what we already have– I’m not in support of scenes that are included simply for the sake of raunchy sex (e.g. the LittlefingerxWhores thing, which may or may not be what it sounds like). To me , that scene would take away from the character (one of my favourite characters in the books), so I’d rather it wasn’t there. Renly and Loras, however, (who are not favourite characters of mine, incidentally) makes quite a bit more sense to show on screen. Not only would it be in character, but it would allow us the chance to understand more about them and what drives them.
    Of course, it all depends on how it’s done. Occasionally I panic and think, “oh man, they’re going to add all of these pointless sex scenes and it will turn into True Blood set in Westeros!”, but honestly, that is a bit silly of me. True Blood is really a bit of an exception for HBO. Yes, there was what I would call a lot of pointless sex in Six Feet Under, and occasionally it seemed sensationalist in Rome, but most of their other shows aren’t that bad. The Sopranos had VERY little sex, and it was one of their most successful series ever (if not the most). The more trailers I see, and the more footage, the less I worry about stuff like that.

  313. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Ellen,
    agreed, for what it’s worth.

  314. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    OldGran,

    I don’t think that they are, necessarily. Like any group of people (if we want to put people into groups) there are people for whom marriage matters and there are those for whom it doesn’t. It may seem as though every gay person and their mom wants to get married, but that’s only because the media pays so much attention to the ones that do, and that are married (in countries where it is legal or a privately recognized marriage). The outcry isn’t because every single gay person wants to get married and plans to run over to the nearest church and tie the knot as soon as they can– it’s that they recognize that there are gay people amongst themselves who would like to be married, and they are supporting a movement toward having the option to. I’ve heard quite a lot of my gay friends say that they don’t really know for sure if they want to get married or not (the same as most of my heterosexual friends, actually), but just that they would like the choice to be able to. They would like it to be a choice they are allowed to make for themselves.

  315. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    OH, UM. Can a mod please spoiler-block that italicized bit of text in my post three comments above? I seem to have clicked the wrong button and now it is emphasized rather than hidden. D: D:

  316. Entropy
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    I am becoming convinced that HBO is taking care to do a great job with Martin’s material so I am not too worried that they will exploit the gay relationship for ratings. At least that is my hope. I really believe that tasteful gayness can add a lot to this already insanely deep storyline. The ratings will come. I can feel it my loins.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEo4JEaBSgo

  317. Maester Tcost
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    In (likely vain) hopes of bringing us together a little on the start, at least, of this fuss, the Tea Party just isn’t all that (dare I use this word in the context?) homogenous a group. It’s certainly not monolithic, but it mostly arose from tax and spending issues. There is a lot of overlap with rightist groups that are mostly concerned with social issues, and for many or maybe most of those, stopping gay marriage is the top priority.

    People who haven’t paid as close attention to the origins of the Tea Party as John has may not be sensitive to those differences. This includes many fairly sophisticated leftists who nonetheless make the serious mistake of not trying to understand their adversaries very carefully.

    That confoundment is aggrivated by polls like those listed in this debate. I used to take polls for a living. Even with a huge sample size, it is very difficult to get a valid sample of Tea Party supporters, because they will make up only a fraction of all the people you interview. Accordingly, while I think that the studies mentioned do indicate that there is a very significant proportion of self-identified Tea Party supporters who do oppose gay rights, it is also unquestioanly clear that a large proportion of those Tea Party supporters come to the table with a somewhat libertarian agenda, which tends to make them supporters of gay rights, or at least opponents of laws disallowing rights to a minority such as gays.

    My best guess, as someone with a high level of political education, is that a small majority of the Tea Party opposes gay marriage while a large majority supports gay rights in general. And, importantly, that any particular group of Tea Party members might be mostly composed of people who do support gay rights.

    John, I respect your opinions, though I mostly disagree with them. I also think that you make a big mistake if you suppose that because so many people voted Republican in the 2010 elections that they are Tea Party supporters. A lot of them are old-fashioned Chamber of Commerce Republicans and there will be a major rift within the GOP if Senators like Hatch and Lugar are targeted by the Tea Party.

    Disclaimer: I myself am a tax-and-spend liberal, though I support a balanced budget, and I believe that liberal spending is only possible when the people can trust the Congress to keep a balanced budget. LBJ, the biggest spending liberal of all time, believed that, and he was right.

    Oh, and Clementine, I still object to the term USAians to describe Americans from the USA. All the more since now you know of that objection.

    ***
    That said, I don’t think that Jaime Lannister is all that much interested in Brienne. We see him musing about a lot of subjects in the second half of AFfC, and Brienne rarely comes to his mind, though she often thinks about him in her chapters. Nor do I think it likely that he’ll take any romantic or sexual interest in Loras, though I can imagine the Kingslayer gradually sliding into a mentoring role for the Knight of Flowers.

    One thing that I would love to see between now and the end of the tale, though I can’t presently guess how this could come to pass, is a serious discussion between Jaime and Sandor on the subject of knighthood. They would each have a lot to say to the other, I think, if they would take one another seriously.

  318. OzXaro
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    I was genuinely interested to see the comments to this post. It’s a shame some folks are so sensitive they have to turn lighthearted entertainment into an inappropriate debate.

  319. purplejilly
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    reedgirl: Kinda makes Margaery/Loras/Renly a trio of slippery schemers, if you think about it. MT has been riding the Queen-of-Westeros Express on the backs of 3 different kings now. I find that very impressive.Go Marge!  Quote  Reply

    Isn’t there a time in book 4 where Cersei is trying to get one of her men to sleep with Margery in order to discredit her and the man has no luck? There are comments about Margery always being with her handmaidens day AND night – i took that as Margery being lesbian- also I thought that was why she was happy to marry Renly, and NOT have it consumated right away, because they were each other’s ‘beards’, and also because she knew Loras and Renly were already an item. This also plays in with her being happy to marry little Tommen, because it will be a long time before she has to do any ‘duty’ sexwith him.

  320. Zack
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: Isn’t there a time in book 4 where Cersei is trying to get one of her men to sleep with Margery in order to discredit her and the man has no luck? There are comments about Margery always being with her handmaidens day AND night – i took that as Margery being lesbian-

    Those were all speculations on the part of Cersei. Who by that point, as we all know, was about as paranoid as anyone could be, and trying to justify certain ways to get Margaery out of the way.

  321. Luke likely
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Spartan:
    Ufff… i don’t want to go into that… but let me say that there are several countries that have good reasons to think that way. Read about the american intervencionism in Chile, for example (assesinations, political repression,endoresement of a dictatiorial regime, etc.)    

    I can see why some countries might have a problem with america but these comments are geared toward american citizens and do not think their hostility is warranted

  322. purplejilly
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Love the discussions! Good to see my “fanbase” is solid (and growing), though I am somewhat vexed a number of you have finally seen through my disguise. In truth, as some of you have only recently discovered, I have a hatred in my heart that is terrible to behold. I am the epitome of the internet troll, divisive and filled with cankerous bile, safely obscured and tucked away in the relative safety of my mother’s moldy basement. I perch, gargoyle-like and bent-backed upon my wobbly little kitchen chair, gnarled fingers at the ready, ever prepared to stoke the oiled fires of knee-jerk sensates and silly people internet wide. My messages are carefully constructed, the barbs expertly delivered, aimed to skewer the weak and the pitiful and the sensitive, because making people cry is fun. It’s fun. I mock all of you! Ah-hah! Ha ha ha!Alright? Happy?Okay, okay. Actually… I only mock the Right (according to my family). What fools, they, with their God and their guns. And maybe the Left too (according to my friends). Leaf-kissing, peace-loving hippie communists! Y’all don’t belong here!Wait, I’m sorry, I go too far. I know I do. I can’t help it! Sometimes weakness just sits there, ready to be plucked like ripe fruit from a tree, or like a gnarly scab on my mother’s weeping backside. I am my own worst enemy. Henceforth, I am finished with the lies. I should put forth the final truth.Here it goes:I love people. All sorts of people. People fascinate me. The weird people, the “normal” (haha) people; the ones who think they have problems and the ones with real problems, like Sia Furler. And I mock, openly and with little regard for their feelings, because I can’t fathom how any living person could be so innately weak that a word, or a sentence, or a paragraph would truly do them harm. Words are like wind, you see. I have no pity for the dead, for they are gone; I pity instead those left behind to mourn their passing. And I have no pity for anyone who uses the word “offended,” not while there remains physical cruelty in the world.I mock myself, and I like to do it often because it keeps me grounded (else I would drift aloft to the heavens, buoyed by my vast intellect). I mock Winter and his gay (the Natalia Tena version of gay) dodgeball headband. I mock my wife, I mock Vee. I mock HmR and his eighty languages, and he accepts it, stoically. I mock GRRM, I mock poor dead Ned. I mocked Obama and I mocked Bush, and I even mocked Ross Perot. If I see you and I know you, I will hug you, kiss you on the cheek, and deliver King Robert’s soon-to-be classic “You’ve gotten fat” quip, which is basically me mocking myself by mocking you. Well, not just you, but your mom, your family…. you know. You people.You, in turn, will either accept the FaB and take me into your heart, or you will do your best to avoid me like the plague for the rest of your life.A third option is you will find a gun and come looking for me. But probably only if you’re from Texas. Ah, lordy, them Texans! They just kill me!To those I have truly offended, with merit, I can say only this:Kiss off, you lanky fat bastard gits. Indigo is a blight upon the face of human consciousness. It hardly bears a right to call itself a color, much less dare to find a place on the seven-colored optical spectrum. As of this moment, nothing has ever been officially stated to prove that indigo is a part of the Seven’s color prism. There are three primary colors: red, yellow, and blue. There are three secondary colors: orange, green, and violet. It’s a perfectly… balanced… system. Why the FROG anyone would even attempt to mess with that cohesion by inserting a seventh color–much less one described as “bluish purple”–I have NO freaking idea.So all you indigo lovers can go suck on a rotten egg. Until GRRM tells me otherwise, I’m going to assume the seventh color is good ol’ reliable black.  Quote  Reply

    FaBio your Indigo hatred wounds me beyond belief. I know there are several places in the books where GRRM describes certain things as ‘Indigo’. If it snows as much as they say next week, I will find page numbers for you :) This will PROVE to you that GRRM does indeed believe in the magic of Indigo. Your cold words and denial of Indigo lead me to believe the only possible truth. You are a closet LOVER of INDIGO!!

  323. clemintine
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    Isn’t there a time in book 4 where Cersei is trying to get one of her men to sleep with Margery in order to discredit her and the man has no luck?There are comments about Margery always being with her handmaidens day AND night – i took that as Margery being lesbian- also I thought that was whyshe was happy to marry Renly, and NOT have it consumated right away, because they were each other’s ‘beards’, and also because she knew Loras and Renly were already an item.This also plays in with her beinghappy to marry little Tommen, because it will be a long time before she has to do any ‘duty’ sexwith him.    

    Now Margery being a lesbian would be a plausible and interesting turn of events! I’m really hoping that Margery is a POV in later books. She’s seems to be playing the Game of Thrones is a very savvy way and I’d like to see what it going on inside her mind. Who knows, maybe she’ll be one of the heads of the dragon when Dany lands ashore and be Dany’s queen?

    Though personally, I’m a Tyrion/Dany shipper and I hope they meet in aDwD and he joins her side. So just as long as he is one of the two heads I’m happy.

  324. purplejilly
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    One more thought on the Renly/Loras relationship – for anyone who watched the Xena shows, everyone knows that the whole Xena/Gabrielle ‘ship was wildly popular with lesbian viewers. but was it ever obvious, or confirmed? No, it was all ‘subtext’, and that ‘subtext’ was what made it more interesting, more intruiging, more thrilling for the fans to watch, and every time there was a comment or scenario or a touch on the shoulder or something, it could allow the shippers out there to go wild and say “SEE?? OF COURSE THEY ARE!!”. Back in those days the email listervs are what would light up, since blogs and message boards and twitter and such were not really around or active yet. I was on some email listservs about the series and they would explode every time a possibly ‘ship-related comment was broadcast. I think HBO would be well served to do the same with Renly and Loras. I’m sure HBO executives are running to mark this down as i post :)

  325. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    That’s really how I saw it too.
    I think it’s going to be interesting to learn more about the Tyrells and their underhanded schemes in later novels.

  326. Felix Reichert
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    John,

    Maybe he infers from the many openly homophobic members and supporters of the tea party, and their openly homophobic public declarations?

    Maybe…

  327. Aryas Horse Charle
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Other sex? Dear God, save us all!

  328. Gregory Kelton
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    This quote from the article:

    I’ll ask nicely ahead of time—let’s not have this spiral down into namecalling.

    Is hilariously hypocritical given this from earlier in the article:

    If our gentle readers do not wish to know which ASoIaF characters are gay, or are not gay, or are pretending to be gay, or are pretending not to be gay, or which ones just use their lofty positions to reenact a certain violent boar-tusked goring scene with their fingertips, well … uh … please skip this article altogether. Wait—is that a Tea Party rally I see yonder?! Go!

    So if I agree with some of the Tea Party’s message (smaller government, lower taxes, less government intrusion into my life) I must be a gay-phobic bigot? Nice.

    I think having LGBT relationships strongly featured will be good for the show. I always liked how Martin portrayed them in the story. You can really tell that Loras and Renly truly love each other, and yet the whole subject is very taboo, only whispered about and hinted about in the society. It’s very realistic. I hope the show carries this aspect over, it’s good stuff.

  329. Aule
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    About Margery being a lesbian, I think it is plausible, but we know very little about her yet. Mostly we hear of her in Cersei chapters in book 4 and by that time Cersei is pretty mental, so I do not trust much of what she describes.

    All that seems to be true so far is that Margery is a very intelligent girl, who is also directed in the game of thrones by her grandmother (I don’t recall her name), who pretty much rules all the Tyrells.

    As for her sexual inclinations, I don’t think her being OK with Renly not consummating their marriage is due to her being a lesbian. It could very well be just because she was almost still a child and was just plain scared of it.

    Besides, Cersei had several potential bed-mates. I recall the singer, and some of her guards. Seeing as Cersei was constantly getting into bed with different men and keeping it a secret, it would be likely Margery is doing the exact same thing, and besides sleeping with the men Cersei sent her and then telling them to keep it a secret and rewarding them by keeping them in her bed is also likely.

    Well, all in all we still know too little about Margery, but I think she’s little more than a puppet of her grandmother and also lets not forget that Tyrells supported the Targaryens, so when Dany returns they may get an even more important role, seeing as how much power they currently have and their decision to turn for or against Dany (once she is back in Westeros) will be paramount.

  330. Jim Higgitt
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    As a raging homophobe, I am deeply offended by the implication that I would belong to the Tea Party. Please withdraw your horrible accusations, there is no need to stereotype us in that way. I would never be associated with that lot, thank you very much!

    By the way, I really shouldn’t need to add this, but I probably should: that was a joke.

  331. EvilClosetMonkey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    I might have to reread those parts in AFFC. By that point I pretty much dismiss anything Cersei thinks for obvious reasons. I originally read the various marriages and proposed marriages for Margaery as trying to get to the throne. If Margaery is a lesbian I don’t think she could have been that thrilled about the scheme for her to marry Robert.

  332. reedgirl
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Aule: lets not forget that Tyrells supported the Targaryens,

    Wouldn’t it be awesome if the animosity between Highgarden and Sunspear is (mostly) a smokescreen? They’ll just open up the borders when Dany arrives, and hand her KL too, and screw ya’ll, (thanks Varys )! The North and the Vale will be more of the ‘war’ I reckon, the war against the c-c-cold threat.

  333. Alwyn Joseph
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Aule,

    Olenna, the queen of thorns. Can’t wait to see what she and Petyr are cooking up :P

  334. Yorick
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Guess what, if you support the Tea Party, you’re supporting homophobia and the furthering of discrimination against homosexuals in America. It’s supporting the politicians associated with the Tea Party, and those people are primarily homophobic. You might be a part of it because you’re a libertarian, but Tea Party doesn’t mean Libertarian Party. If it did, then hey, it would be called the Libertarian Party.

    You don’t get involved in something as politically massive as the Tea Party and say it has nothing to do with queer issues. Even if you yourself have no problem with the LGBTQ community, by associating yourself with the Tea Party you are taking a position counter to their ideals, even if it’s not on the label. While FaB maybe shouldn’t have brought up politics in a nonpolitical blog, the point behind his little bit of mockery is intact and valid.

    (Also he didn’t even say Tea Partiers are homophobes. He suggested homophobes join the Tea Party. All that suggests is “the Tea Party is home to many homophobes” which is quite true. Square isn’t a rectangle, rectangle is a square, etc. Really, the people who should be offended are folk who just love taxes but can’t stand the thought of two dudes buttfuckin’.)

  335. Yorick
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    *rectangle isn’t a square, square is a rectangle

  336. Dany's Knickers
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Probably not the wittiest comment ever, FaB. John, un-bunch your panties and relax. While I’m sure you’re *highly offended*, go get a grip on reality or troll somewhere else.

  337. Mouk
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Blackfyre:
    How do you mean legitimate vs. illegitimate?Gendry and Jon are both bastards as far as we know.    

    Sorry, by that I meant the heir of the “true kings” (AKA Targaryen) vs. the heir of the “imposed king” (AKA Baratheon). I know, I know, the Targaryens were also imposed, but it’s just a way to say it

  338. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Yorick,

    This is frankly buffoonish. It is like stating if you support Black issues your are lining up with a homophobic force and you are thus painted with the same brush. The American Black community is probably the most homophobic group in America.

    http://www.blacklightonline.com/phobia.html

    Debbie is not alone. An overwhelming number of Blacks suffer from homophobia – a fear of homosexuals. Homophobia, as in other phobias, is rooted in the fear of the unknown. People generally fear something which escapes their understanding or which they lack sufficient information to adequately judge a situation. The over-abundance of erroneous information on homosexuality only serves to further confuse and complicate the issue.

    The influence of the Black Church, the importance of masculinity and the role of the family appear to be the underlying causes of homophobia in the Black community. These issues deserve further exploration.

    First, there is the issue concerning the influence of the Black Church. A majority of Black ministers view homosexuality as going against the teachings of the Bible and immoral.

    Bishop William A. Hilliard, of the Third African Methodist Episcopal Zion District, is one of many in the religious community opposed to homosexuality. “The Church is diametrically opposed to homosexuality; we stated that as our official position last year at our national conference, it is a sin,” he stated. Bishop Hilliard’s colleagues are quick to agree. Bishop Jasper Roby, spiritual head of the Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God, believes that unless homosexuality is stopped it will “destroy us all.”

    The Black culture is deeply steeped in the tradition of the Church. Representatives of the religious community exert a powerful influence on Blacks and their cry against homosexuality is taken up by the larger sections of the Black community. The general attitude of these ministers is that homosexuals should repent, as they contend that homosexuality is a matter of choice and homosexuals can change if they so desire.

  339. Gregory Kelton
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    BTW; If the Tea Party is nothing but a lunatic fringe of society, explain Allen West, Daniel Webster, Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Ken Buck, Anna Little, Jeff Landry and the other Tea Party candidates that won

    I live in the district that Anna Little ran in. She did NOT win, she conceded to Frank Pallone. Just saying.

    Blackfyre wrote:

    We all need to remember, this is a site dedicated to Game of Thrones. Take your political views and comments to another site. I for one do not want to scroll through every posters political views just to read the ones related to the topic.

    So FaB gets to drag politics into it with his tasteless shot at the tea party, but then when he is called on it (and refuses to even admit it was in poor taste) those that are calling him on it “need to take your political views and comments to another site”? That is laughable.

    If WiC, FaB and HMR don’t want politics discussed on their blog, they shouldn’t bring politics up in their posts.

  340. Victoria Cole
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    The only thing that is buffonish is your post.

  341. Scott E
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    (Aside: I’m gay and pretty liberal, but admit I cringed at the tea-party reference; politics, along with religion, should be restricted to blogs about politics and/or religion. Nothing is more unnecessarily divisive and thread hi-jacking.)

    Anyway, what really bothers me are the comments against the show being open about the characters’ sexuality. They say they prefer it to be under the radar like in the books, but “subtle” is really just code for “invisible” and “I want to suspend my disbelief and not be reminded that they’re gay.”

    For those of us who are gay we want to see characters whose sexuality we can relate to, it’s not too much to ask considering the vast amounts of heterosexuality that will be on display. It will also be extremely meaningful to me to see relationships like mine portrayed in a genre I’ve always felt completely excluded from.

    I hope that those who criticize the show’s handling of the gay characters take a moment to reflect on how their comments might sound to the gay readers on this site.

    Personally I will probably tear up a bit to see a well-portrayed realization of Loras and Renly’s relationship on the screen. I don’t think a lot of straight people realize how meaningful that is, especially for those of us brought up in very homophobic environments.

    Can we be a part of the Song of Ice and Fire universe too? Can we peer into this fantastic world and see ourselves reflected back? Should we be content with mere innuendo and the biting remarks of POV characters?

  342. DH87
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Jaeden: They kinda did that in The Tudors (Only seen the first season so far, can’t speak for the rest). Seemed like there was one or more sex scenes in pretty much every episode, regardless of whether or not it added to the story.

    We’ve discussed this before; gratuitous sex both satisfies premium channel subscribers and makes for easy cutting for basic cable repackaging. If you are watching the Tudors on BBCA now, you’ll see the case in point. Important plot developments remain, sex romps go away, ads and basic-cable mores win.

  343. Dolorous Dave
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Ned is gay.

    Sorry, spoiler alert.

  344. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/11/did-blacks-tank.html

    What follows is from an ABC article about how the Black Community tipped the balance and shot down Gay marriage in California. I guess if you support the Black Community you are supporting the an evil group that needs to be brought to task? Why do blacks hate Gays? Oh why?

    Yes, black Californians who voted for Obama also supported the gay marriage ban by a wide margin but so did Hispanics. And white and Asian-American opposition to the ban wasn’t large enough to overcome the spread, so to speak.

    That said, African-American opposition to gay marriage and gay civil unions is not new. In an ABC News/Washington Post poll in late 2007, blacks opposed gay civil unions by 58-36 percent. (Whites were in favor, 55-41.) In earlier polling we’ve done on gay marriage, blacks have been even more broadly opposed, 66-31 percent.

  345. userj
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Heyyy!! Let’s swamp out all the political discussion by writing some steamy reenactments of what the Loras + Renly scene will look like!

    Who’s first?!

  346. DH87
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Scott E: I don’t think a lot of straight people realize how meaningful that is, especially for those of us brought up in very homophobic environments.

    I support your sentiments completely, but the risks are always there for mainstream media. HBO board moderators regularly scrub threads started by posters/viewers of True Blood who threaten they will stop watching or cancel their subscriptions if more homosexuality is featured and complain the series is already “too gay.” A major paranormal novelist has reportedly decided to “downgrade” a planned book in her series to a novella because it is going to feature a homosexual relationship —a significant portion of her readership apparently has indicated no interest in wanting to buy it/read it. Getting too far ahead of prevailing mores carries risks in an already risk-filled creative environment.
    More Aniston/Vaughn romcoms, anyone?

  347. Winter Is Coming
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Just want to say that I don’t care if you guys discuss politics here. I’ve never restricted any sort of conversation on here, whether on-topic or off. Feel free to discuss whatever you like. But please, please refrain from the personal attacks. That is the only thing I ask. You can all express your opinions and defend your views without resorting to calling other people idiots, morons and the like.

    As to everyone else that doesn’t care about politics, the newest thread is that-a-way and you can discuss whatever you like there.

  348. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Scott E,

    Well said. To be clear (if any of my posts have been misinterpreted) I really hope they show the audience Loras and Renly’s relationship. It’s one of the most genuine relationships in the entire series. I just don’t want to to change the story and have every character aware of their relationship.

  349. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: Just want to say that I don’t care if you guys discuss politics here. I’ve never restricted any sort of conversation on here, whether on-topic or off. Feel free to discuss whatever you like. But please, please refrain from the personal attacks. That is the only thing I ask. You can all express your opinions and defend your views without resorting to calling other people idiots, morons and the like.As to everyone else that doesn’t care about politics, the newest thread is that-a-way and you can discuss whatever you like there.    

    I dont think anyone wants to discuss politics here. It is just FaB just rubbed the Tea Party is homophobic rag in our faces. Is there homophobic Tea Party members? Sure there are. Are there homophobic people everywhere? Sure. Are most Blacks in America Homophobic? The polls sure seem to point that way.

    FaB could of started his first epically misguided post this way. We are going to discuss gay issues and characters now. To anyone to doesnt want to or will make personal attacks to a Black American Church you should go!!! Go!!!

    Anyone see the issue yet?

  350. Casey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Scott E,

    Thats not what I meant, I don’t care if it’s there because obviously GRRM intended it to be so when he wrote the books. I just don’t want them to violate the integrity of the story for the sake of some ratings grab sex sceens. This goes for the Hetero relationships as well. I just don’t want to see the show devolve into a Porn parody of GRRM’s books.

  351. clemintine
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Scott E: For those of us who are gay we want to see characters whose sexuality we can relate to, it’s not too much to ask considering the vast amounts of heterosexuality that will be on display. It will also be extremely meaningful to me to see relationships like mine portrayed in a genre I’ve always felt completely excluded from.

    I think what you said is very important, and it is true. So far in SoIaF we’ve had two FF encounters happen in POV chapters, but will GRRM ever write a MM sex-scene? I’m hoping so, because otherwise it would feel unbalanced.

    Slightly off topic…
    If you’re looking for queer-friendly fantasy, Mercedes Lackey is an author you might like to try (especially her Last Herald-Mage series), but with two caveats. Her writing style appeals to more younger people and I kindof outgrew her when I wasn’t a tween any longer so she’s no GRRM. She also can get very preachy, and even though I agree totally with her politics and am probably as left wing and feminist as she is, it still makes me feel like a chior. But she does show a spectrum of relationships in her works which I’ve always really enjoyed about her. Jaqueline Carey, and Nalo Hopkinson are also queer-friendly writers, and though it is not always the focus of their works, it is there and done with respect. They are both better authors than Mercedes Lackey, in my own opinion, though if we start debating our opinions non-SoIaF fantasy on this thread that is already full of politics, well, it’ll be even messier :)

  352. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Scott E,

    This exactly. Well said.

  353. Casey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    Any one who calls themselves the “Tea Party” has to expect to cop some flack. I mean I can’t be the only one getting a Lewis Carol flash back to the March Hare and Mad Hatter can I?

    But seriously who the Frak cares what political party you belong to obviously your all a bit over sensitive about the issue which says to me you obvioisly don’t have a mind of your own so much so you have to latch on to someone elses ideals and ride that. Think for yourselves find out what you believe and leave it at a personal level because this community is about GoT TV series.

    Although I guess it could be in keeping with the books, they’re full of political back bitting…

  354. ethelred
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    gurgi:
    I dont think anyone wants to discuss politics here.It is just FaB just rubbed the Tea Party is homophobic rag in our faces.Is there homophobic Tea Party members?Sure there are.Are there homophobic people everywhere?Sure.Are most Blacks in America Homophobic?The polls sure seem to point that way.FaB could of started his first epically misguided post this way.We are going to discuss gay issues and characters now.To anyone to doesnt want to or will make personal attacks to a Black American Church you should go!!! Go!!!Anyone see the issue yet?    

    For what it’s worth, every single member of the Congressional Black Caucus voted to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell except for one member who was retiring to run for Governor of Alabama. Not a single current member of the Tea Party Caucus who was in Congress at the time of the vote voted to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. The Congressional Black Caucus also supported modifying the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to ban discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation; the members of the Tea Party Caucus in Congress at the time did not. Also worth noting: the District of Columbia council passed (with strong support throughout the city) a bill legalizing gay marriage. The vote was nearly unanimous; only one council member voted against it. Columbia is a black majority district.

    If you’re trying to make the point that there’s a lot of homophobia in the black community, that’s a case one can legitimately make. If you’re trying to make the argument that blacks are the problem and that the Tea Party isn’t, that’s not something you can successfully argue because actions count and there’s no basis in any sense for the idea that the Tea Party has been anything other than a blockade in the face of progress on gay rights issues.

  355. Kanga
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra: Lex,I shall now crawl back under my rock to continue writing my incredibly gay novel.    

    *clicks like button*

    Blackfish Blues, Rinoa De la Pica, Steve Hugh Westenra,

    I second the “you guys are awesome” comment someone made above. I love reading your posts :)

    purplejilly: One more thought on the Renly/Loras relationship – for anyone who watched the Xena shows, everyone knows that the whole Xena/Gabrielle ‘ship was wildly popular with lesbian viewers.but was it ever obvious, or confirmed?No, it was all ‘subtext’, and that ‘subtext’ was what made it more interesting, more intruiging, more thrilling for the fans to watch, and every time there was a comment or scenario or a touch on the shoulder or something, it could allow the shippers out there to go wild and say “SEE?? OF COURSE THEY ARE!!”.Back in those days the email listervs are what would light up, since blogs and message boards and twitter and such were not really around or active yet.I was on some email listservs about the series and they would explode every time a possibly ‘ship-related comment was broadcast.I think HBO would be well served to do the same with Renly and Loras.I’m sure HBO executives are running to mark this down as i post     

    I could not agree more on the handling of the Xena/Gabrielle thing. Xena was my favorite show growing up, but being around 5 years old I never picked up on the subtext the first time round. I’ve been catching up on the series for the last couple months though, and I think the Xena/Gabrielle thing was done brilliantly . It’s honestly one of the main reasons why I continue to watch the show. At first I enjoyed it more out of nostalgia, but the are-they-or-aren’t-they quality to that relationship totally hooked me, and now I watch it going, “Are they getting their naughty on or not? I WANNA KNOW!!” (Xena being gorgeous and running around in a rather smashingly short skirt-thing helps too, but that’s beside the point… ;)) If they handled the Renly/Loras thing the same way, well I think that’s the best way they could possibly do it. The buildup of tension and wondering is just fantastic.

  356. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    ethelred,

    What point do you think I was trying to make?

    My point is FaB was painting with a very broad brush and he should know better.

    He wanted to slander the Tea Party with Homophobia on some very slight evidence. When there is much more historical evidence of a great deal more homophobia elsewhere.

    He wanted his little pound of flesh and he got it.

  357. Mark
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    I don’t give a shit about Loras/Renly gay relationship. I hope they don’t put too much focus on that because I don’t recall that being a big component of the story. If it was then I forgot about it because it’s been awhile since I’ve read the books.

  358. Steve B
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Jesus, I can’t believe you all are still at it. Let it go people! It’s like a weird troll circle jerk– I piss you off, then you piss me off, then I piss you off, then you piss me off.

  359. Steve B
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm, just occured to me I was using a gay porn metaphor there, which is probably loaded in this conversation. Oops! :) Sorry ’bout that. Metaphor still applies though.

    Hope all the anger, name calling and bile makes everyone feel good!

  360. Steve B
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Of course, who knows, perhaps I’m simply fanning the flames rather than putting them out. Ah, it’s hard to do good in the world!

  361. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/13/iraq-gays-murdered-militias

    Is this a story of the Tea Party using the internet to hunt down and kill gays?

    No it is from the UK Guardian about Iraq and the wave of homophobia in Islam.

    So I could do another FaB opening post.

    If our gentle readers do not wish to know which ASoIaF characters are gay, or are not gay, or are pretending to be gay, or are pretending not to be gay, or which ones just use their lofty positions to reenact a certain violent boar-tusked goring scene with their fingertips, well … uh … please skip this article altogether. Wait—is that a Mosque I see yonder?! Go!

  362. Casey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    Let it go man. Wow some people are wound tight. sheesh.

  363. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/13260/warren-g-shows-the-hypocrisyhomophobia-of-rap-music

    Warren G shows the homophobia in American Rap Music. Is Warren G a Tea Party member? According to FaB he should find a Tea Party Rally right now and sign up!!!

  364. Casey
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    gurgi: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/13260/warren-g-shows-the-hypocrisyhomophobia-of-rap-musicWarren G shows the homophobia in American Rap Music.Is Warren G a Tea Party member?According to FaB he should find a Tea Party Rally right now and sign up!!!    

    How bout I start calling you racists you neo nazi faciast. How does that make you feel. Just back the hell up and get the hell of this forum take your political diatribe and shove it up your arse which is were your head seems to be firmly planted.

  365. Steve B
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Nah, let ‘em all keep going. Just watch it all go down from the sidelines. At first it was all sort of painful and worrisome to me, but now I feel like the tit for tat back and forth is so far gone it almost makes good entertainment. Sigh. Almost.

  366. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Casey: gurgi,How bout I start calling you racists you neo nazi faciast. How does that make you feel. Just back the hell up and get the hell of this forum take your political diatribe and shove it up your arse which is were your head seems to be firmly planted.    

    Yeah now thats better. Feel your hate. Embrace it. Move to the dark side.

  367. gurgi
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1182991,00.html

    Time Magazine says Jamaica the most Homophobic place on earth.

    FaB declares all people upset with this thread should make sure to vacation in Jamaica with the Reggae Tea Party.

    Jamaicans really dont like spoilers I hear.

  368. coltaine777
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    You really need to give it a rest…

  369. Steve B
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Eh, let him get it all out. No ones really listening anymore anyways.

  370. Steve B
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    He feels slighted and wants to get even. What can you do?

  371. Zack
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    I’m just happy that amidst all the humorless complaining going on, somehow if you dig through this thread there’s actually good conversations to be found.

  372. Feeblegenius
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    We’re maybe 10-12 more entries from a good “I’ll kick your ass” post. Is there a Godwin’s Law equivalent to this? If not, I’ll have to come up with a good name for it.

  373. Lex
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Feeblegenius,

    Is that the law about Hitler? I read about this law about ANY discussion on the internet, that the longer it continues, the higher the chance that someone will eventually bring up Hitler/nazis.

  374. Jardin17
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    I would love to see some of these relationships fleshed out, especially Loras & Renly.

    I hope they show when Loras takes Renly’s body and buries it in the secret place only they know. It would add a lot of depth to his character and it would also be very touching! :’)

  375. Ikertzeke
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Feeblegenius,
    Is that the law about Hitler? I read about this law about ANY discussion on the internet, that the longer it continues, the higher the chance that someone will eventually bring up Hitler/nazis.    

    Related to this post & Hitler:
    1.-He was homophobic.
    2.-People usually say that words don´t kill, not in Hitler´s case, words can kill in a massive way, even in Westeros…
    3.-He was democratically elected…

  376. Andrija Andrew P
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Now that you mention it I do recall that a few years back my grandmother reached the same conclusion and Hitler became persona non grata during dinner times… It was rather distressing to discuss Blood purity laws between the main course and sweets, does not help your digestion in the slightest.
    And now the rest of you lot, would you all ever so kindly desist with nonsensical outbursts, you sound like raving children. From the perspective of someone who had to flee his home because of the serious issue of war and human suffering which it caused this debate seems totally unimportant.not to mention inappropriate and misplaced and I would kindly ask you to shut up and exchange your e-mails and to continue this somewhere else…

  377. Lex
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Ikertzeke,

    He’s also often incorrectly labelled as an atheist, when most of the evidence shows that he was catholic.

  378. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Haha. People get so angry.

    There’s like this misguided team mentality where it’s like, “That dude made a joke that belittled our team! Get ‘im!”

    When really, there are no teams. Only sheep fully associate themselves with any one of these political parties, Tea Party included. I’ve never met any actual free thinkers who could look me in the eye and say they agree with every single thing any one candidate or party stands for.

    Educate yourselves; detach from this misguided guilt by association and learn to take some playful ribbing every so often. Thin skin only hurts you.

    I have to say, the kneejerk need to rally against a joke is pretty amusing, though I’m slightly miffed that no one has rallied to poor Winter’s side when I belittled his dodgeball headband. Like you’re sensitive that I jokingly implied Tea Party members were fond of the color indigo, but you can’t be bothered to bestir yourselves in defense of our mentor and leader? Where is the fairness in that? What team are you on? Shame on you all!

    (Again, I kid. I love that headband. I need to do a post in which WiC’s headband is rightly displayed.)

    Anyway. We have another thread where we’re talking the latest GoT stuff, but hey, I welcome more, uh, discourse here.

    Come at me, weapons drawn! I shall deflect your best blows and SPANK you all soundly!

  379. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    It’s reached the point where I’m starting to think that only an extremely major piece of news (e.g. another trailer, season 2 announced, the addition of Sookie Stackhouse as a new main protagonist….) will distract people from this argument, which (rightly or wrongly) they are pursuing with much vigor.

  380. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Ha! I was going to respond with *Bad, Naughty, evil Zoot* before clicking on the link. You win this round…

  381. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    A Sookie Stackhouse announcement probably would derail this, you’re right.

    I’d cast her as Lollys though.

  382. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Phoenix_torn,

    Are you her twin sister, Dingo?

  383. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Are you asking if i want you to spank me?

  384. Andrija Andrew P
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    O.O

  385. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Phoenix_torn,

    It goes without saying. I just assume everyone wants me to spank them.

    Except my daughter, who used to glower frightfully. Most kids cry; she just looked affronted.

  386. Feeblegenius
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Feeblegenius,
    Is that the law about Hitler? I read about this law about ANY discussion on the internet, that the longer it continues, the higher the chance that someone will eventually bring up Hitler/nazis.    

    Yessir, the very same. It was invoked about 2/3 the way into this thread and despite a few feeble attempts by some folks who lack the imagination of a slug, we have yet to meet the requirements for the holy trinity of true Internet bottom-feeding. Trolling, insults, and the coup de gras…threats.

    Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love it when a lurking mouse bursts from the woodwork, tears his flesh off, revealing his true identity as an acid-spitting, fire-breathing, puppy-eating demon spawn from the 14th level of a hell most god-fearing folk never even knew about and learns us all a few things about what it means to be human.

    In short, I have faith in stupidity.

  387. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    I wouldn’t knock it if they went that route.
    She’ll need to eat a few more pies before second season comes around, but otherwise…. ;p

  388. Brian
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    GaR:
    “Please change your content to things that do not offend me personally because I can’t deal that.”Seriously though, no one has the right to not be offended.Harden up.    

    Read whatever you want into what I said, but do keep it to yourself afterward because you make yourself look like an ass.

    A proper summary of my post would have been, “Keep politics/religion/etc out of the web page or else it will devolve into comment threads like this one.” This request has been echoed by several others. If this offense you, harden up.

  389. Damyrn of Dorne
    Posted January 23, 2011 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Renly wasn’t gay… he just had some erectile dysfunction :D

  390. purplejilly
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    Alwyn Joseph: purplejilly

    I would absolutely love her to be my RL grandmother! Olenna rocks!!

  391. purplejilly
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Haha. People get so angry. There’s like this misguided team mentality where it’s like, “That dude made a joke that belittled our team! Get ‘im!”When really, there are no teams. Only sheep fully associate themselves with any one of these political parties, Tea Party included. I’ve never met any actual free thinkers who could look me in the eye and say they agree with every single thing any one candidate or party stands for. Educate yourselves; detach from this misguided guilt by association and learn to take some playful ribbing every so often. Thin skin only hurts you.I have to say, the kneejerk need to rally against a joke is pretty amusing, though I’m slightly miffed that no one has rallied to poor Winter’s side when I belittled his dodgeball headband. Like you’re sensitive that I jokingly implied Tea Party members were fond of the color indigo, but you can’t be bothered to bestir yourselves in defense of our mentor and leader? Where is the fairness in that? What team are you on? Shame on you all!(Again, I kid. I love that headband. I need to do a post in which WiC’s headband is rightly displayed.) Anyway. We have another thread where we’re talking the latest GoT stuff, but hey, I welcome more, uh, discourse here.Come at me, weapons drawn! I shall deflect your best blows and SPANK you all soundly!  Quote  Reply

    All this headband talk is now having me picture you and Winter as HarryPotter and Ron Weasley in the Very Potter Musical Spoof on Youtube.. Each time I see a post by Winter in my head I am hearing “Did somebody say Ron Weasley??” (for those of you interested, you can go to youtube and seach for ‘A Very Potter Musical’ – fun watch for any HP fans or even if you didnt particularly like HP cause they skewer it quite well)

  392. purplejilly
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Kanga,
    you were 5 ? Oh my. I feel so old now.. : ) But glad you agree with the subtext making it more fun. I hope they don’t do it up like Spartacus, with the hardcore gore and graphic sex slammed right in your face..

  393. LSUinNL
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    This post may have ruined this site for me.

    Maybe you guys can create competing left/right wing GoT news sites or just keep politics out of it.

    I think most people don’t want to navigate through this much BS to get to the reason they come here in the first place

  394. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:18 am | Permalink

    LSUinNL: This post may have ruined this site for me.Maybe you guys can create competing left/right wing GoT news sites or just keep politics out of it.I think most people don’t want to navigate through this much BS to get to the reason they come here in the first place    

    I think most people come here for a little escapism. I know I do. I have been coming here since the news was leaking that the show might be green lit. Probably over two years ago. Maybe a little more or less.

    I got my wife addicted to coming here. Sent countless links to it at websites I visit.

    No one ever heard a peep out of me or any other Tea Party people that I can remember and I think I read at least 20 percent of the comments.

    An apology at the beginning after the first comment would of cut this off completely. A refusal to do so when his own opening paragraph violates his own request to not stoop to insults is bizarre to say the least. FaB meant it and he meant it exactly the way we are taking it to mean.

    I feel betrayed.

    I guess his responce would be dont let the door hit you. This attitude is also bizarre. Were we not all fellow enthusiast before this? Do you not want fans of all stripes to feel welcome here?

  395. Entropy
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:24 am | Permalink

    Lsu whatever. It’s one thread bitch. Being sensitive Is basically the reason for this long and entertaining thread.

  396. sjwenings
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    Some people need to get over themselves…

  397. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    gurgi: I feel betrayed.

    Littlefinger did it.

    ::points::

  398. Czarnian
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Thanks FaB for not giving in. I dont care who is right in this. People are far to sensitive. Pointing at someone saying “I think you are an idiot” is far more respectful than with a soft voice saying “you are entitled to your opinion” only to backstab the same person in your thoughts. Respect is harsh and honest. Respect is to view others as strong equals who can take a punch.
    The Teaparty is famous even here in Sweden for their strong direct language. Now all I hear is a lot of complaining over a joke. Do you really want to enforce the view that right wingers lack humour and self distance? You are doing a good job at it.

  399. Biwwy
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Hm. Isn’t anyone concerned that they’ll lay on the gay a little too thickly? One great thing about the Loras/Renly relationship was that it was so subtle, not blatantly in your face. I for one would be disappointed if all of a sudden they were shoving it in your face every time Loras and Renly are on screen.

  400. Biwwy
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Btw, this is also a concern for sex scenes in general. I’m all for sexy, but I don’t want sex scenes that weren’t depicted in the books being flashed around just because it’s HBO and it’s “sexy and gritty”

    is anyone else concerned about this?

  401. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Czarnian,

    Aftonbladet is not exactly known for it’s impartiality. No one cares what you might have heard in Sweden, and that is really besides the point. Now, I am neither American nor a right-winger, so the only real problem I have with this is the integrity of the website. If FaB refuses to own up the the fact that he belittled and stereotyped many viewers of this forum AND not to mention many more future viewers of the show, for nothing more than a cheap laugh, then I for one won’t let it go. If he, as moderator, can get away with that without as much as an excuse, then being fair, everybody offended by his “joke” should be able to call him a narrow-minded spineless cunt without fear of reprimands. Actively trying to turn away certain types of viewers is not a minor thing. This is not a minor issue.

  402. Czarnian
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Petter Kristian Vikestad: Czarnian, Aftonbladet is not exactly known for it’s impartiality. No one cares what you might have heard in Sweden, and that is really besides the point. Now, I am neither American nor a right-winger, so the only real problem I have with this is the integrity of the website. If FaB refuses to own up the the fact that he belittled and stereotyped many viewers of this forum AND not to mention many more future viewers of the show, for nothing more than a cheap laugh, then I for one won’t let it go. If he, as moderator, can get away with that without as much as an excuse, then being fair, everybody offended by his “joke” should be able to call him a narrow-minded spineless cunt without fear of reprimands. Actively trying to turn away certain types of viewers is not a minor thing. This is not a minor issue.  Quote  Reply

    It is a bit beyond me how Aftonbladet came into the picture. It is my opinion how ever that prejudice should be fought everywhere, even here. Sure, my media intake is biased to the left since neutral media doesnt exist. I read the Huffington Post and watch The Daily Show, The Colbert Report and Real Time with Bill Maher. This cant hide the fact that the foreground of the Teaparty movement is anti-gay, anti-pro-choice, anti-immigration and pro-gun. The teaparty are the ones calling Obama a nazi-communist and questioning his nationality. The Teaparty are the ones who wanted the tax-cuts for the rich. The Teaparty has no black or gay spokespeople. The Teaparty are the ones talking of overthrowing the government by force.
    I know there may be a few who are in the Teaparty movement only because they are for a small government. Even so, they still have to ansver for the prejudice spread by the people in the foreground or start their own movement.
    Politics is everywhere and SHOULD be everywhere since it dictates our day to day life. For some it dictates if they in the end will afford to buy the GoT DVD-boxes. There is no excuse for using litterature or a TV-show as a means to hide from reality. The books themselfes are full of politics so bringing up politics here is honoring both them and GRRM who himself has very strong political views.
    If someone should be weakminded enough to not be able to coup with what FaB wrote I am thinking they sure must have a hard time surviving in the real world.
    Grow up FFS

  403. Adam Roberts
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    wtf! loras and renly are gay?

  404. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: Just want to say that I don’t care if you guys discuss politics here. I’ve never restricted any sort of conversation on here, whether on-topic or off. Feel free to discuss whatever you like. But please, please refrain from the personal attacks. That is the only thing I ask. You can all express your opinions and defend your views without resorting to calling other people idiots, morons and the like.As to everyone else that doesn’t care about politics, the newest thread is that-a-way and you can discuss whatever you like there.

    Winter, thanks for the new thread and for the freedom you allow us on your blog. However I would have loved to be able to read and comment on this thread, “Homosexuality in GOT”, without having to skip 3 posts in 4 for the sake of my sanity. :(

    As I’ve tried to explain above (did my post even get un-moderated? ah, bugger that), there are people who can’t “get over it”, “grow a thicker skin”, “be less sensitive”, because of their health. They have to be very careful about the sites they visit, because a high level of verbal violence causes panic attacks. A certain site may become their safe port. Oh yes, there are beheadings and rapes and mass murders in the stories it contains, but that’s actually cathartic, because it’s a controlled violence. It’s in a book and you can decide whether to read it or not, to skip some parts. Once you’re comfortable with that, the site becomes a joy and a solace to read.

    Then Politics comes in.

    Politics is the experimental proof of Godwin’s Law. Politics IS “personal attacks” and nothing else. You can’t have the one without the others. Everywhere, every time, talking politics is just the same as “calling other people idiots, morons and the like”. Talking about Winter’s headband is not.

    Steve Hugh Westenra: Fire And Blood,It’s reached the point where I’m starting to think that only an extremely major piece of news (e.g. another trailer, season 2 announced, the addition of Sookie Stackhouse as a new main protagonist….) will distract people from this argument, which (rightly or wrongly) they are pursuing with much vigor.

    I agree. No, wait, I agree with Steve, not with the addition of Sookie.

    Kanga,
    thx. :)

  405. Will
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    John, gurgi,

    Please, relax.

    Breathe.

    Understand that people can say things, and you don’t have to get in a huff.

    Thicker skin and all that…

  406. Winter Is Coming
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues: Winter, thanks for the new thread and for the freedom you allow us on your blog. However I would have loved to be able to read and comment on this thread, “Homosexuality in GOT”, without having to skip 3 posts in 4 for the sake of my sanity.

    I hear ya. But methinks that ship has sailed. Maybe in the future the topic can be revisited and people can discuss it in a rational manner. But for now, it seems, this thread has turned into the “political discussion” thread.

  407. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Czarnian,

    Did you read my post? I did not discuss partisan politics, but I simply stated that the publishers and moderators of this site shouldn’t show partisanship. Well, it doesn’t matter now. I will not let you spew bad rhetoric. Firstly, you think this anti-Obama bullshit is bad? It’s really isn’t worse than the anti-Bush sentiments five years back. I think you need some perspective, Swede. I think drawing a Hitler mustache on either president is wrong, and in both cases, unwarranted. Secondly, Allen West is black and a supporter of the Tea Party. So basically, you have no points, and instead of actually reading what I wrote, you responded with rhetoric alone. Tea Party-members are easy targets, and neither FaB nor you would justify belittling them if they weren’t. Do you think he would joke about someones job, religion, or place of birth in one of his oh-so-witty posts? No, of course not. This is a forum for HBO’s Game of Thrones, and I expect the publishers from now on won’t alienate a fan just because of his or hers political color.

  408. Fordeus
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    CAN WE PLEASE STOP THE POLITICAL TALK NOW?

    This entire post should just be deleted because it’s gone so off topic it’s ridiculous. 90% of this has absolutely nothing to do with GoT, and those comments should just be deleted.

  409. Czarnian
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Petter Kristian Vikestad,

    When every news organization in the world today is more or less politically biased I dont find any problem with a single moderator making a political joke. Neither is it FaB’s or my fault if the Teaparty movement is as you say, an easy target. Also, during the Bush-years there was no display of hatred towards Bush from the democratic party. The democrats very much differ from the Republicans that way. The way of the medial democrats today is satire, not hateful attacks such as is propegated by Fox. Everyone is allowed a voice here, even FaB and so are you and I. I personally found the remark witty and I know myself well enough so say that I have self distance and self-esteem enough to find other remarks that may oppose my own political standpoint funny. There are now persons more boring that those who cant take a joke aimed at them or their opinions. You seem to be one of them and I pity you.

  410. Czarnian
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Besides, there is no question about the fact that the Teaparty movement is opposed to gay rights. Sure there may be individual Teaparty members who arent, but that is besides the point when the only viewpoints expressed are clearly anti-gay. Any organization or movement IS what it DOES.
    Therefore FaB’s witty remark was really true.

  411. purplejilly
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Biwwy,
    Yes, I am VERY worried they will make it too strong. It surprises me just reading this blog, at how many people didn’t realize it at first and actually still are not sure. I think that makes it more interesting. I think it should be hinted at with subtext, and be more mysterious. That makes it more fun for the viewer, on the general level.. I am looking for a low-key relationship.

  412. tek
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Rob O Sevens,

    LOL! Well said sir…. well said!

  413. Ikertzeke
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    This is the official statement from the Red Lady, a priestess of the Lord of Light, Melisandre of Asshai: ” I am not a witch, I am YOU”

  414. purplejilly
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Littlefinger did it.::points::  Quote  Reply

    LOL!!!!!

  415. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,
    I fear you are right. I’ll take it as a fait accompli. Hoping for new future discussions on the topic, I’ll now head to the doggie thread. ;)

  416. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    You and I can start our own discussion of the topic and hijack a different thread. ;p

    Not really though…it’d be pretty one-note. We seem to agree on most things, haha.

  417. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    lol We should go back and hijack theloras or renly casting thread.

  418. Smegma
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Phew. Read all the comments. All I have to say is – it’s a private blog, and those that are offended can leave. You have that right, just as they have that right to make that joke. I find this terribly amusing coming from supposed “small government” people that want less regulation. Yet if you find it personally offensive, the writers should censor themselves! Get over it. It’s a joke.

    Anyway, I am very glad they are going to show a good deal of the relationship of Renly and Loras. I figured it out when I read the books and it was searching for this and info on other theories (R+L=J and more) that I developed on my own that I came across other people on the internet who had figured it out too. I had argued that it was the case to a few friends that also read the books and they didn’t believe me :)
    I loved when GRRM confirmed the relationship.

    I really liked how they handled Omar Little in The Wire and his gay relationships and sex. Ideally, I would love for a subtle build up with people wondering and then the big payoff. But even if HBO decides to address it head on right from the beginning that is fine by me. It’s an important part of these character’s motivations and I look forward to it. Of course, I am in the minority it seems but I love all the sex on HBO shows. Some of the scenes in Rome were so hot. :P

  419. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Biwwy,

    I think Scott’s post a few comments above yours is the best response to this, but I’ll add a bit of my own as well.

    Honestly, I don’t think LorasxRenly was that heavily veiled in the novels. It certainly wasn’t blatant, but then, I don’t expect big flashing lights and neon words to scroll across the skin announcing their homosexuality either.

    Considering the fact that Loras and Renly were supposed to have been quite secretive about themselves, it’s remarkable how much GRRM does reveal to us through exposition and POV. It leaves me with the impression that, if either or both of the character had been POV characters (do to the necessity of the plot) then GRRM may very well have included a brief description of them together.

    As I said above, and have iterated on numerous occasions that I hope HBO doesn’t go overboard with the sex or add too many superfluous sex scenes, but honestly, I don’t see a RenlyxLoras sex scene as superfluous, and I don’t think it will take away at all from the mystery of the characters. For one thing, even though the audience will be in on it, the majority of the other characters won’t be, and I think that will make it much more interesting for viewers. Something like that exists in the books as well (at least, I’m pretty sure it was intended to exist), but it’s harder to do when the characters the audience is supposed to feel more knowledgeable than are essentially the ones writing it. What, in text, comes off as “subtle” to some, would feel nearly invisible on screen and would also feel like a bit of a cop out.
    I agree that there should be some hints beforehand, just to get the cogs turning a little, but to make those hints without confirming it in some way would feel amiss, I think, on television.
    I would feel much the same way if the couple in question were in a secret (perhaps adulterous, for example) heterosexual relationship. If we’re talking relatively major characters like Renly and Loras, it would feel as though they’d left the plot hanging if we didn’t follow the hints to some kind of eventual follow-through, if only because we’d be missing out on so much of the complexity behind the characters. It’s hard to cite an example from the books because there aren’t really too many examples, but Cersei and Jaime do come to mind. There’s is certainly a secret relationship and it could be done to great effect, plot points intake, should we not actually see them ever together or ever at it. It does work though, as storytelling, to be more explicit about their relationship, without, I think, ruining any of their mysteriousness as individuals or together.

    I’m not saying that it is necessarily true of you guys in particular, but it does seem as though there is this code, where by “keeping it subtle” what people really mean is “I don’t want to see two men getting at it, please leave it out because I’m not in to that.” Well, certainly one can’t help what turns them on/off. I would never fault someone for that, and you definitely don’t have to pay attention if it’s particularly graphic and you’re that bothered by it. BUT, and this has been said many times without making it less true, there is an enormous, enormous amount of heterosexual sex on television– of heterosexual couples on television (not just talking about the sex aspect here). No one complains about all the gratuitous hand-holding between heterosexual couples, or how their relationships aren’t subtly done. This is because of the perceived notion that it is a norm, and that therefore those outside of the norm should be and will be used to the fact.
    But the thing is, it’s all constructed. There’s really no logical reason why there couldn’t be two (instead of the token one) gay couple on a mainstream television series and have those two couples (four whole people who are gay!!! They exist! OMG) be completely different from each other and live entirely different lives and possibly not be in the same storyline together. It’s not any specific person’s fault that this doesn’t happen, because most of us have been brought up in a society that views homosexuality as a deviation from the norm rather than a naturally occurring thing.
    If I, as a teacher (hypothetically speaking, since I teach university students, not children….har), were to send my second-graders home with a book in which the parents of the main character happened to be gay, there would be an outcry, because people would accuse me of trying to brainwash their children and teach them to become homosexual. No one complains about overt heterosexuality in children’s books, or says, “hey, you’re impressing heterosexual norms upon my child, who may or may not turn out to be gay.”
    For me, it’s not about some terrible need for a token gay sex scene or for gratuity of any kind, but for a movement in our ways of thinking, as a society, to portray life how it really is, and not to hide facets of ourselves and our culture. All it does it perpetuate the myth that queer people are this fringe group who are somehow separate from regular society, and allow an already existent fear of the unknown to grow unhindered.

  420. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    ….uh, that should totally read “screen,” but hey, skin works too, I guess?

  421. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    “bluish purple”?
    I’m offended. Indigo is clearly purpley blue.

  422. Gregory Kelton
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Also, during the Bush-years there was no display of hatred towards Bush from the democratic party.

    This is DELUSIONAL.

  423. Franklin
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton,

    Gotta agree, that hatred for Bush from the left side of the spectrum was constant & rabid. I still hear/see it every day, and the guy is gone into retirement, not interfering like certain other ex-presidents do.

    Both sides do this, but the Bush years saw a new level of vitriol.

  424. Biwwy
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    I have no problem with a scene if there is one, but what I’m voicing is a simple concern over them taking it to extremes. In my follow up comment I also said I felt the same regarding heterosexual sex scenes. It’s not about what turns me on or off, as I have no problem with either, but what I’m saying is that sometimes those sorts of scenes are unnecessary. For example, a tastefully handled scene of Loras and Renly that was inferred in the books during the time they “prayed” together, then that’s perfectly fine. But hot mansex in every episode they appear in together wouldn’t be. In other words (with hetero sex as well) I’m only concerned with sex for the sake of sex, like you said.

    I never said the inclusion of it bothered me, only a concern about them laying it on too thick.

  425. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Biwwy,

    I did get the impression (especially from your follow-up comment, which I had read before replying) that it wasn’t necessarily something specifically against homosexual sex in the series (which is why a prefaced that section about people who were, by saying I didn’t necessarily mean either of you, but just in general, as this has come up on other sites and in other threads).
    I think we’re very much on the same page in terms of there not being too much sex (of any variety). I definitely don’t need to see what every single character in the series is like in bed in order to get an idea of them as a character.
    It did seem that you weren’t that keen on there being much time given to them on-screen and as a couple in any respect (for the sake of preserving what was perceived at subtlety in the books), which was, in large part, what I was trying to respond to.
    You’ve made it pretty clear though that that wasn’t what you were getting at, so I apologize.
    Mostly I’m just reiterating Scott’s points about the fact that there isn’t really any reason why the audience needs to be in the dark concerning Loras and Renly, when knowing more about them would allow us to care about them more as characters, and subsequently would make Westeros seem more realistic.
    I wouldn’t expect or want them to include sex scenes between the characters every episode (and that goes for all characters, actually). In fact, I hope that there are some episodes with no sex, as including it every episode would come off as kind of desperate.

  426. Wolfheart
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Has anyone considered what the opinion of the actors portraying Renly and Loras think? And how far they are willing to go in such scenes? Or what they are WILLING to do. For instance some straight actors have a hard time doing those certain things. How secure or insecure they may be about it or with themselves.

    Food for thought. As we seem so focused on our own opinions. I’m very curious as to what they have to say about it.

  427. Zack
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart: Has anyone considered what the opinion of the actors portraying Renly and Loras think? And how far they are willing to go in such scenes? Or what they are WILLING to do. For instance some straight actors have a hard time doing those certain things. How secure or insecure they may be about it or with themselves.
    Food for thought. As we seem so focused on our own opinions. I’m very curious as to what they have to say about it.    

    See, that’s the other thing. People are truly opining that they think HBO is going to be anything but tasteful with this particular relationship, when I think because of the actors own hangups, if they do have any…it’ll be pretty tame. I mean undoubtedly they were asked if they would be comfortable doing love scenes with another man before being cast. I *hope.* LOL

    I remember how tastefully they did the Michael C Hall/Mathew St Patrick relationship in Six Feet Under. I wouldn’t expect horribly graphic scenes here either, guys. This isn’t a porno.

  428. purplejilly
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    Just to clarify on my own thoughts, I have no problem at all with gay relationships or seeing gay sex portrayed, my ‘subtle’ hopes were to make it more interesting, (IMHO), like in what I posted about the Xena show earlier.

  429. Rinoa De la Pica
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra: I shall now crawl back under my rock to continue writing my incredibly gay novel. Steve Hugh Westenra

    Hey!! I wanna read your novel. Can I? ;D (I’m in fact sending mine to some publishers, and I’m waiting right now for their positive response!).

    Kanga: Blackfish Blues, Rinoa De la Pica, Steve Hugh Westenra,
    I second the “you guys are awesome” comment someone made above. I love reading your posts

    Aww, sweetie, I’ll repeat the same question that Blackfish Blues made above… Will you marry me? (LOL perhaps I may have a chance with you). Just to end this thread accordingly(:P).

    Ok, back on topic (although I’m not sure which is the topic anymore). Could any fan of HBO series tell me how they usually handle with same-sex relationships? Are they somehow similar to hetero relationships? Are they sexy? Are they “chaste”? I’m afraid I haven’t seen yet any HBO series. Shame on me!

  430. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    You raise a good point.
    I’m pretty sure from what we know (the fact that such a scene appears to have be filmed as all) that the actors probably are comfortable with playing gay characters, and likely in intimate (though not necessarily ultra explicit) scenes.
    I definitely look forward to hearing what the actors have to say about their characters (same for all the other actors we haven’t heard from yet either).

  431. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    Also, it would be fun to find out if those were the parts they auditioned for initially, or if they were trying out for other characters (again, same with many of the other actors). I know that happens sometimes.

  432. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I thought your Xena post was pretty interesting. I watched that show when I was a kid growing up (same with Hercules too). I never really noticed their relationship when I was little, but that’s mostly because I stopped watching it during the later seasons when it became much more of a focus. Watching it now, it seems pretty overt.
    Although I agree with you to some extent (Xena has a massive, rabid fanbase), it seems as though going that route is more for titillation than anything else. And paradoxically, it is exactly that sensationalist attitude toward same-sex couples on screen that most people seem to be objecting to.
    Because GRRM has explicitly stated that Renly and Loras are gay, there isn’t the same kind of dynamic that there seems to have been with Xena and Gabrielle, who (although it was kind of obvious they were meant to be in love), were never explicitly STATED to be couple (correct me if I’m wrong on that count though, as I’m not exactly knowledgeable concerning the Xena fanbase, etc).
    The other real difference is that Xena was played for camp, the same way that True Blood is an intentionally campy program. I think both shows do this pretty successfully, but GoT isn’t the same thing at all, and making the gay couple in a GoT the titilating, slightly campy element of the series would be a real kick in the face, in my opinion. Renly and Loras’s relationship should be handled with the same gravitas and sense of realism that Catelyn and Ned’s is, or Cersei and Jaime, etc. That’s not to say there shouldn’t be lighthearted moments in scenes between them, or in the series as a whole, because humour is just as much a part of the real world as hardship, but rather, I would be severely disappointed if Renly and Loras were the comic relief/campy couple of the show.

  433. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    *titillating

  434. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    And now, my thoughts on homoerotica!

    (It was bound to happen once all the political stuff died down.)

    Regarding graphic love scenes of any sort, be they gay or hetero, I actually lean toward exclusion rather than inclusion. Not because I take any offense at being shown something graphic (nothing offends me), but because I rarely see them advance the story in any significant way.

    The good ones are rare. You could show me 100 different “sex scene” clips and I would choose perhaps 5 that actually did something to advance the story or moved me in any sort of way (and by any sort I mean any sort). The art is in capturing the emotion of the moment onscreen—or the lack of emotion if the story that is being told is about a lack of connection. But usually it’s about emotion. Facial expressions (joy, ecstasy, pain, desire) are just as important as body placement (trembling hands, rhythmic torsos, artfully ‘twined limbs).

    The scene should be at the crux of something. A clash of wills, a final submission, something that invests us and packs that extra punch, so that what we’re watching is not just artfully placed porn. Watching Jon and Ygritte’s 105th coupling holds no interest for me unless something different or interesting happens to their story during that little roll in the furs.

    Realism is just as key. If I’m watching three love scenes in a row, and the female actress remains partially clothed during each one of them (usually due to her contract stipulations), I lose interest quickly. Not because I was robbed of a fabulous chance at seeing titties (yay titties!), but because in my own mind I go, There’s no way I wouldn’t be ripping that bra off this chick. I put myself in dude’s place and think, Victoria’s Secret would not be keeping her secrets for very long if I were there.

    One of the best love scene I ever saw was in (can you guess?) … Brokeback Mountain. Because it wasn’t just about desire, or the usual things that you see on film, but rather about one man’s struggle against his own nature and guilt. It was a wrestling match that essentially went very badly for the loser.

    (Or very goodly, depending on your take.)

    Brokeback Mountain deserved every award it won (and more, I think, since it was robbed in more than a few Oscar categories). It was a story about ill-fated love; a tragedy in every sense of the word. Jake Gyllenhaal was … well, basically he was Jake Gyllenhaal, no surprise, but Heath Ledger was phenomenal. Just brilliant. Believe it or not, I had more confidence in Ledger playing the Joker after seeing Brokeback Mountain than before. I saw how he could just become something that he wasn’t. Very eye-opening, for me.

    Can Loras and Renly do that? I kind of doubt it, but I also don’t expect it. I suspect their scene is going to be “shocking and revelatory,” offering quite a surprise to audiences who aren’t familiar with the books.

    There goes Loras! Isn’t he cute? He’s adorable! See how all the girls want him! He’s so pretty and aloof!

    The cheers fade as Loras enters his tent. A few lovestruck girls sigh audibly.

    Inside the tent—is Renly! Clearly there to congratulate his friend and—uh—-oh.

    Oh!

    You get the picture. Anyway, that’s what I’m envisioning. It’s telling, and it certainly moves the story forward. Personally I think they should make it as shocking as legally allowed. Just for that extra punch. Sorry, Sansa.

  435. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Rinoa De la Pica,

    Ahaha. It’s honestly pretty awful so far. I’m not sure anyone would want to read it. I’m also a little paranoid about sending out my writing to people, as I had a bit of a scare last month when someone I’d met recently (and who I’d let read my story) informed me that she’d taken one of my characters and inserted him into the novel she was working on. ):
    I AM planning to heavily revise this story one day though, and perhaps try and get it published as the prequel to another story that I’m writing, which I will be genuinely looking to have accepted somewhere. The second one also has some gayness too. ;p
    If you would like to read something of mine that’s been published (if somewhat unimpressively, in a free, online journal), here’s a link to a short story of mine: http://www.ceruleanrain.com/issues/Issue3final.pdf

    Mine is the last one (Ragnarok).

    Let me know if you have any luck submitting yours for publication! I would love to read it. I bet there are a number of us aspiring authors on this site. Who knows, maybe one day we can have a published, WiC moot….

    To answer your other question, it varies from show to show how homosexuality is treated, but mostly it seems as though it’s dealt with just the same as the heterosexual relationships are (which bodes well). No special treatment, just honesty.
    I’ll try and list what I’ve seen, though keep in mind that I haven’t seen everything that HBO has done (most notably The Wire).

    The Sopranos: Much like the heterosexual, romantic relationships, not much time is given to the few homosexual ones. Certainly I don’t remember any graphic sex. In later seasons it becomes an issue for a minor character and it’s a pretty moving storyline.

    Six Feet Under: Sex-wise, it is probably the most explicit that I’ve seen aside from True Blood. Even then though, it’s not THAT explicit. In terms of the characters and their relationship, I found that the main gay couple was one of the most consistently well-written couples on the show, which was nice to have on a program that fluctuated a lot in terms of its quality. The characters were some of my favourites on the show, and they also didn’t suffer from “only gay in the village” syndrome.

    Rome: One of HBO’s only shows (that I’ve seen) that had a serious lesbian relationship. I thought it was cute, and it was mostly well done. Some of the sex scenes were very lengthy though, and I felt like it was unnecessary. There were some heterosexual scenes that also seemed superfluous in the series too.

    Carnivale: There was some lesbianism, which was done pretty well. It ended up having a bit of a “she was only in it because she didn’t have a real man,” feel to it though. I find this happens A LOT on television with lesbian characters. Not so much gay ones. One of my favourite shows though. There was a vaguely stereotypically gay character, but he was very VERY minor.

    Oz: One of my favourite series of all time. Since it’s set in a male penitentiary, it dealt quite a bit with homosexual themes. I thought it was very well done. I don’t remember the sex ever being that graphic, but be warned, because pretty much everything else is. There is also a ton of non-sexually related nudity, so flapping penii abound.

    Big Love: Deals very tastefully with issues facing gay people who may not be entirely aware of their sexuality and who are attempting to reconcile their nature with their religion. It’s not a major feature of the plot until around season 2 (I think??), but it becomes very important later on.

    True Blood: Much like everything else on the show, it deals with homosexuality in a fun, campy way. There’s a certain amount of parallelism drawn between anti-vampire activists and homophobes. Lots of gay characters (a few of them good, a few of them pretty dire– the same as the heterosexual ones). Being a show about vampires, there’s also a lot of gender bending and bisexuality.

    Aaaaaaand, I think that’s all. I kept it vague intentionally, as I wanted to avoid spoilers. I’ve also seen the first season of Deadwood, but I don’t recall any homosexuality and so I left it off the list. I hope that helps!

  436. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    That’s actually exactly how I was envisioning how the “sex scene” (or pre-sex scene) will likely be done, and it works for me because it makes sense story-wise, character-wise, and it sets the scene for being able to include some interesting material later on that deals with their relationship and their (un?)nefarious schemes.

    You pretty much described my opinion on sex scenes in general in your comment, btw. I’m happy to have them if they show me something important, are eventful in some way, or if it’s done artistically or to show some kind of contrast, etc, but otherwise…yeah, I don’t really need to see Bob and Jane (or Joe) doing it over and over every episode. Bill and Sookie’s sex scenes in True Blood are a good example, I think, of what NOT to go overboard with. Apart from having nothing to do with furthering the plot or telling us more about the characters, they’re also extremely, agonizingly vanilla (hilarious considering one of them is supposedly a blood-sucking fiend….).

    Not so sure I agree with you about Brokeback Mountain though. While I do think you’re right about the sex scene being important and well done, I found myself terminally bored sitting through the movie. I definitely felt bad for the characters, and I’m happy it brought attention to the issue for a lot of people, but for some reason it didn’t capture my imagination.

  437. Joe
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    John,

    I beg to differ, often topics that are offensive, are funny because they are offensive. Many comics and writers have made their whole carreers off of writing and telling offensive jokes. You know what, it is ok to laugh at a joke that somebody might find offensive. It does not make you homophobic, racist, sexist, classist or any other ist or phobic, it just means you have a sense of humor. If we would all loosen up and laugh a bit more often, we would all be better off.

  438. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    As a big Spartacus Blood and Sand fan I think they did the homosexual affair just perfect. Very loving and respectful.

    I doubt GOT goes anywhere near that level of sex but I have been very curious on how they are going to portray the nude and sex scenes in the book.

    Loras is 17? I would think they would want to skirt any child porn issues. This whole thing is going to be tricky to pull off. The Dany sex scenes. She is 13-15? The abuse of Sansa.

    All this is going to be an amazing tightrope to walk.

  439. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Martin has used the nudity and sex scenes as shock value. Really can anyone remember him putting in a romantic moment?

    I dont think the Tyrion scenes qualify as romance.

    I would guess HBO will do the same and attempt to use it to shock.

  440. Biwwy
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    Just to clarify on my own thoughts, I have no problem at all with gay relationships or seeing gay sex portrayed, my ‘subtle’ hopes were to make it more interesting, (IMHO), like in what I posted about the Xena show earlier.

    I fully agree with jilly here, and with your own points as well. I have no problem with the audience being subtly made aware of the relationship (and then a bigger reveal later on, the Godswood scene for example), but one interesting factor about Loras/Renly was that while their true feelings for one another may have been perceived by others in Westeros, both continued to put up a sort of front for obvious reasons, for example Loras handing out roses to young ladies during tournies, etc. This element of their forbidden relationship was what I found interesting and I hope this is preserved in the show without being overshadowed by “HEY THESE GUYS ARE GAY”

    To me their relationship was more beautiful because it was about love, not just about passion or lust, so I hope it doesn’t resort to that.

  441. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    I honestly think they will handle many of the age issues by not addressing them at all. Loras is 17 in the books, and even if he isn’t aged up (and almost everyone is, so why not him?) I don’t think there will be any sort of narration saying “Here is Loras, a boy of 17…”

    I think the young men will just be seen as “young men.” Just like Dany, who we will see as a young woman. Even though the leaked pilot script had Daenerys’s age at 15, they may never actively state her age in the show. And if the actress playing her is legal (Emilia Clarke is a few years older than 18), then it’s a non-issue.

    The real issues will probably be with Sansa, who is being played by a 14-year old and who is most definitely seen as a sexual object (by some) in the books. Do they have her go through the violent stripping scene ordered by Joffrey with her back turned to us? Or do they simply omit it altogether? I for one would hate to see such a sharp display of Joff’s madness tossed aside, as it helps us despise him even more, but at the same time I would be loath to put a 14-year old through that experience, even if it were “acting.” So I’m on the fence there.

    But Loras? The actor is legal. I think we’ll see that dude in his full glory.

  442. Nico
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    This Fire and Blood guy is pretty offensive. First the cussing now this, I think I will move on from this website. I liked Winter is Coming’s style before this guy joined.

  443. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Biwwy,

    Oh definitely. I fully expect them to keep those parts, as it’s important to the characters (not just Loras and Renly, but also to Sansa, whose naivete on all fronts is so integral to her character in the first book).
    You mention that their relationship seems to be more about romance than a lot of the others are and I think it’s that reason precisely that makes it interesting to include a positive sex scene to contrast with a lot of the loveless and painful ones that take place elsewhere in the story.
    At first I would have preferred for them to show the sexual scene between the two characters later rather than earlier, because I was imagining it working better on screen, but if they plan to include more scenes with them earlier on (and with each other), then it makes sense to do the sex scene earlier as well. I’m not sure when it will happen for certain, but it seemed from the interview (I could only get the After Elton one to work for some reason) that it will be happening earlier in the series.

  444. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra: Blackfish Blues,You and I can start our own discussion of the topic and hijack a different thread. ;p Not really though…it’d be pretty one-note. We seem to agree on most things, haha.

    Save your strength for the Season2 casting posts… I will need your support to get a hot Blackfish :D

    Steve Hugh Westenra:I shall now crawl back under my rock to continue writing my incredibly gay novel.

    Hey, if you let Rinoa read it, I wanna read it too! As an exchange, I can let you read my slash m/m fiction. It’s not just men who get turned on by lesbian action, we girls have our needs too!

    Fire And Blood: One of the best love scene I ever saw was in (can you guess?) … Brokeback Mountain. Because it wasn’t just about desire, or the usual things that you see on film, but rather about one man’s struggle against his own nature and guilt. It was a wrestling match that essentially went very badly for the loser.(Or very goodly, depending on your take.)Brokeback Mountain deserved every award it won (and more, I think, since it was robbed in more than a few Oscar categories). It was a story about ill-fated love; a tragedy in every sense of the word. Jake Gyllenhaal was … well, basically he was Jake Gyllenhaal, no surprise, but Heath Ledger was phenomenal. Just brilliant. Believe it or not, I had more confidence in Ledger playing the Joker after seeing Brokeback Mountain than before. I saw how he could just become something that he wasn’t. Very eye-opening, for me.Can Loras and Renly do that? I kind of doubt it, but I also don’t expect it. I suspect their scene is going to be “shocking and revelatory,” offering quite a surprise to audiences who aren’t familiar with the books.

    FaB, I forgive you everything, you’re the first male I know who liked Brokeback Mountain. Pity you’re taken already. ;) I loved that movie because it was a meaningful LOVE STORY – no matter that the protagonists were men, camels, unicellular organisms etc. That’s what I hope for L/R. That people look at them and say “what a sweet story of two people in love” rather than “oh look, thei’re gay, who would have thought that.”

  445. Biwwy
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    That’s what I hope for L/R. That people look at them and say “what a sweet story of two people in love” rather than “oh look, thei’re gay, who would have thought that.”

    Exactly.

  446. MissingReed
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    My main concern is that it will be rapey and/or have t&a just for the sake of having t&a. The books are full of a lot of rape, and they only do a marginally good job of addressing it as a horrible event.

    Rome had this issue, of rape and t&a for the sake of t&a, the very first episode was almost impossible to watch because of it.

  447. GaR
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Nico,

    I’d rather profanity than redneck slang, personally.

  448. OldGran
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Don’t worry FaB, we still love you! Group hug for FaB! We are like a family here on Wic, a disfunctional family, but family none the less.

    Now can’t we just get along? ( a famous man said that one time)

  449. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    Haha, well, like I told Rinoa, I’m not sure it’s something I want to share at this point, since it’s kind of bad and in need of a lot of editing and sharpening, etc. You can, however, see one of my published pieces of writing here: http://www.ceruleanrain.com/issues/Issue3final.pdf
    It’s the last story in the issue and it is VERY old. It was old when I submitted it, so it’s even older than that now. It’s been a long time since I’ve read it, and it could very well be awful.
    I would love to read your m/m slash if you are so willing. (:

    Fire And Blood,

    I too would be loathe to lose the Sansa scenes, simply because they’re just that powerful. I’m sure they’ll figure out a way to do them without traumatizing the poor actress. It’ll be hard enough watching the parts wherein he has her beaten, let alone the stripping scene.

    Also, are Gethin Anthony and Finn Jones that different in terms of age? Gethin Anthony looks pretty young as well. It won’t feel all that odd, I think, with two characters who are both young and who look over the age of consent.

  450. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I feel the love!

    Tea party/orgy at HmR’s house! Meet you all there in an hour! All proclivities welcome! Go!

  451. Phoenix_torn
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    You have intrigued me with you fiction. I’d love to read it, as long as it doesn’t involve Adam Lambert lol

  452. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    MissingReed: My main concern is that it will be rapey and/or have t&a just for the sake of having t&a. The books are full of a lot of rape, and they only do a marginally good job of addressing it as a horrible event.Rome had this issue, of rape and t&a for the sake of t&a, the very first episode was almost impossible to watch because of it.    

    I think that is what we are in for. Martin doesn’t do romance in these books.

    Maybe HBO will do a little romance but then it wouldnt be exactly Martins world. I dont know if I would really like changing it up too much.

    A good place for romance would be Robb. Or Ned and Catelyn.

    You know on second thought I guess the weird relationship Sam has is somewhat romantic. Or even Jon and his wildling is romantic.

  453. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    Yeah, Sam and Gilly definitely was as well. It seems to be something that features more in the later books rather than the first (Ygritte and Jon, as you say).

    I do think that there is romance in ASoIaF, it’s just not badly done, cheesy or boring romance. It feels more natural than that (taking either of the aforementioned couples as an example, or Loras and Renly). It’s tragic or engaging or tender simply because it is more lifelike and less idealized.
    I think what’s important about some of the character legitimately being happy in their relationships is that it shows, despite the fact that most of the characters are in loveless marriages or have skewed, unhappy romantic experiences, that isn’t true of everyone. Even Tyrion and Tysha is pretty romantic, if also terribly sad.

  454. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,
    rig me up a transporter bean and I’m there :D

  455. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues:rig me up a transporter bean</blockquote
    BEAM! I'm already drunk enough to party :D

  456. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Craster and his lovely wives is a wonderful display of Romantic love.

    Craster doesnt appear in the first book does he?

    My wife suggest Mel Gibson for the role of Craster. Mel does sweet loving characters perfectly.

  457. Pancho Francisco
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Just real quick in regards to the blackfish…. when catelyn visits her father, Lord Hoster is upset because blackfish wont marry and catelyn replies that he will NEVER marry a girl. That is where it stems from I beleive…. Personally I had suspicions after that part…

    As for Renly and Loras…. I really didnt pick up the allusions admittidly! haha but hell I’m excited! The two hottest guys in the realm are an item? Heavens yes!

    Oh! Im gay no clearly, NOOOOO problem with the homosexual themes haha :D
    No offense taken from Fab, and Fab….dont let him upset you, tea partiers are just crazy and everyone knows trying to talk sense to crazies is like trying to carry water in a bucket with no bottom ;)

  458. Rinoa De la Pica
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues: As an exchange, I can let you read my slash m/m fiction. It’s not just men who get turned on by lesbian action, we girls have our needs too!

    Aha! That’s what I liked you, I knew it! I knew we shared similar tastes. :) I’ll definitely read Steve’s short story (and the rest of the stories, they all look fantastic, btw), but it would be an honour for me to enjoy your m/m fiction as well. Just for my girl needs, you know hehe. I could tell I’m more or less a novelist specialized in m/m action. Too bad all my fiction is not written in English but in my mother tongue. Whatever…

    WOW Steve, mate. Thank you very much for your amazing analysis. I couldn’t imagine HBO dedicated so many gay relationships in series as big as The Sopranos, Carnivale or Big Love. I planned to see these series anyway, but now I don’t know what to watch first. I think I’m gonna read more in detail the “What to watch discussion thread”.

  459. Rinoa De la Pica
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Yeah, Sam and Gilly definitely was as well. It seems to be something that features more in the later books rather than the first (Ygritte and Jon, as you say

    HAHA oh man!

  460. Rinoa De la Pica
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Rinoa De la Pica,

    Oh, oh. Sorry for the triple post. The quote somehow was quoted wrong. I swear I’m not drunk.

    Fire And Blood: Tea party/orgy at HmR’s house! Meet you all there in an hour! All proclivities welcome! Go! Fire And Blood

    THIS is what I pretended to quote. I love it. lol.

  461. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Pancho Francisco: Just real quick in regards to the blackfish…. when catelyn visits her father, Lord Hoster is upset because blackfish wont marry and catelyn replies that he will NEVER marry a girl. That is where it stems from I beleive…. Personally I had suspicions after that part…

    Hi Pancho! The exact quote is, “He’ll never marry”. Girls are nor mentioned. (not really exact quote but I’m doing without the books).

    It could mean he’s homosexual. OR it could mean he’s like me who’d rather have all her teeth kicked out rather than marry. Time will tell!

  462. Alice Louise Moore
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    There is lots of explicit sex and violence in GRRM’s epic. I’ve read all 4 books. Right now, various characters’ preferences or the company they keep do not seem germane to the story. It is the heterosexual act, at the beginning, that is of far more importance.

    As to your spoilers, I thought, “Aha, so that’s why character X had no interest in Sansa Stark.”

    Fire and Blood, there are many people who read GRRM’s works. A good chunk of them are -GASP!!!!!!!-conservatives.

  463. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    Lol.
    Well, by that I didn’t mean that all of the relationships in later books are romantic (far from it, in fact). I just meant that most of the couples you pointed out appear in later books. Possibly this is because many of them happen between younger characters, who haven’t been forced into unhappy marriages.
    Also, I could believe Mel Gibson as Craster. It rings disturbingly true. ):

  464. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Rinoa De la Pica,

    Thank you! Somewhat unfairly of me, I only ever got around to reading one other story that was in that anthology. It was okay, but not great. It made me wonder a bit as to the quality of my own writing, ahaha….
    I’ll be sure to let you know if any of my longer stuff gets accepted by any publishing houses!

    Also, if you’re interested in those shows specifically because of homosexual themes, I would caution you that some of those storylines don’t develop until later seasons (often the second season). If it’s what you’re interested in, then Six Feet Under and Oz are probably your best bets. At the same time, I wouldn’t turn anyone away from any of those series, as they’re all great in their own ways (even True Blood, although quality varies from episode to episode A LOT in seasons 2 and 3).

  465. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra: gurgi,Lol.Well, by that I didn’t mean that all of the relationships in later books are romantic (far from it, in fact). I just meant that most of the couples you pointed out appear in later books. Possibly this is because many of them happen between younger characters, who haven’t been forced into unhappy marriages.Also, I could believe Mel Gibson as Craster. It rings disturbingly true. ):    

    Mel could pull it off for sure. Maybe he would have interest in the character because he is having problems getting work these days. He would come way cheaper than 5 years ago.

    If I was the HBO producers I would make some back channel inquires.

  466. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Alice Louise Moore: Fire And Blood,
    Fire and Blood, there are many people who read GRRM’s works.A good chunk of them are -GASP!!!!!!!-conservatives.    

    I’m a fiscal conservative. This news brings me joy!

  467. Kanga
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Now that I think about it, I was probably closer to 7 or 8. But either way, definitely early elementary school. I loved that show growing up, I even had a Xena action figure. Which I still have, because I’m cool like that. : ) I haven’t seen Spartacus but I get what you mean, like others have said I hope they portray it as a legitimate, loving relationship as opposed to just tons of sex just for shock value’s sake.

    Rinoa De la Pica,

    Haha, aww that made me smile. Thanks, you’re very sweet : ) Yes, I suppose you do! You got lucky and found the one girl around who likes boys and girls. I’m open to marriage proposals from all genders : ) lol

  468. Kanga
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues:
    As an exchange, I can let you read my slash m/m fiction. It’s not just men who get turned on by lesbian action, we girls have our needs too!
        

    I’m curious now too! Put me down on the list for when you send this thing out, it sounds intriguing… :)

  469. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    I’m not sure if I would want to support his career, even if it was to typecast him as an abusive, misogynistic, incestuous murderer.
    Also, I still think he’d be out of their price range. Plummeting career or no, he’s still a major star.

    It would be a hilarious telephone call though… “Hey, uh, Mel. So HBO’s doing this character right, and he’s a complete f****** psycho who has a harem composed of daughters and granddaughters who he forces to have sex with him, and, oh yeah, murders their male offspring. Of course, I thought to myself, there is only one actor who springs to mind….”
    XD

  470. LivveHult
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    Wow.
    This has got to be the most annoying and utterly stiflingly boring and stuffy post+commentsection I have seen on this site.
    I am actually offended by it’s pure length and everything trolly and actually also everything pro-american, pro-american politics about it. ;)

    Not because I am anti-american. Seems like a fascinating country, with good and bad, just as any country. I’m against pro-american etc statements, because to me that highlights a disregard for the possibility that anything other than pro-american should be accepted.
    And to me, that gives me the same type of chills down my spine as I get when I study history and the nationalistic movements in beginning of 20th century Europe – yes I mean nazis, fascists etc..(note: type of – am not specifically stating that it IS like being nazi – before anyone goes crazy on me)

    Because there is always more than one way to look at something, and because I don’t believe in blindly following an ideology – wether it’s nationalism or something else.

    LOVE Arya+Jon theory, my romantic mind has wanted that since book 1
    LIKE Arya+Jon+Dany theory, but not sure GRRM will let it happen
    LOOKING forward to seeing hos Dornes people fit into this story already…..
    DEEPLY curious – as to how this story will end

    RENLY+LORAS I want to see done tastefully and discreetly at first, with a allknowing wievers POV feel, because I like the intrigue and guessing GRRM brings to his stories.
    Rather – all se be done tastefully actually.

    AM NOT opposed sex – gay or otherwise. In GOT or real life. Personal preference/choice/orientation
    AM Lutheran Protestant. AM Swedish. AM straight.
    (Just so you can compartmentalise me nicely enough.. :P)

    Thinks Jesus and God loves gay people too. Why else would he have made some gay. I’m not really stating that – I’m just highlighting the obvious theological dilemma: that if you believe in a AllPowerful Creator of All – then he must have created homosexuality, right? Or what?

    And think I dislike the personal attacks made from FABios defenders in this post even more than the excruciatingly boring political overreacting monologues made by Josh and others.

    Peace, Love and Understanding people…

  471. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    LivveHult,

    It is quite a lengthy bit to get through. I knew a post with the rainbow flag affixed would illicit some sort of response though.

    But the most surprising thing for me was the realization that there are Arya+Jon shippers out there! Left field!

    She needs to end up with Gendry. Come on now.

    (Though I fear she is going to end up dead.)

  472. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    LivveHult,

    I think the on-topic posts have been quite interesting and civil, actually. It’s just wading through the rest of it….

  473. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: LivveHult,
    It is quite a lengthy bit to get through. I knew a post with the rainbow flag affixed would illicit some sort of response though.
    But the most surprising thing for me was the realization that there are Arya+Jon shippers out there! Left field!She needs to end up with Gendry. Come on now.(Though I fear she is going to end up dead.)    

    You are still amazingly clueless. You still don’t seem to understand that there was really no uproar about anything gay at all. No one seems to care that much at all about portraying it on screen.

    What caused the uproar was you and you alone. Your smug insults and whole middle finger attitude.

    Seems people don’t mind homosexuality and GOT. No one cares about the rainbow colors.

  474. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    I did notice you mention me a lot. There is anger in your heart, ser! Tell of this thing you despise!

  475. Ed
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    I just wish they had left Renly’s hair long… :(

  476. gurgi
    Posted January 24, 2011 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: gurgi,
    I did notice you mention me a lot. There is anger in your heart, ser! Tell of this thing you despise!    

    Your out on your ledge and you just wont back down. Thats fine. It tells a lot about you and tells a lot about Winter also.

    You came to this topic with an image in your mind. No one responded the way you were sure would happen in your amazingly uneducated opinion of the Tea Party.

    Frankly the Tea Party formed completely around the idea of less government and lower taxes. It really blew up around the whole Healthcare issue.

    What really changed this last election? Independents fled the Democrats. Thats pretty much it. Why would they join a bunch of racist/homophobes?

    Maybe because they see through the media narrative and are not buying it?

    Wonder how many homosexuals were at the Tea Party rallies this year?

    Quite a few I would hazard to guess. Or can you tell who is gay in a crowd? Can you?

  477. Hear Me Roar
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: I feel the love!Tea party/orgy at HmR’s house! Meet you all there in an hour! All proclivities welcome! Go!    

    Heeeeeey! :D

  478. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    Dude, you missed the party.

    Hopefully the mess wasn’t too bad. All that blood on your walls… I blame Rabbit and her carnivorous ways.

  479. Fire And Blood
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    gurgi came too. I was all, “You’re a little long-winded for a Orioles fan.” But he’s actually very genteel. I like him!

  480. Blackfish Blues
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 4:31 am | Permalink

    Kanga,
    LOL, thanks, I didn’t mean to advertise myself, but whatever derails this thread is welcome :D I’m on FB and Twitter, if you click on my name and rummage around you should find a way to contact me privately.

  481. The_Rabbit01
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Heh.
    You lucky bastard!
    Having a hard day in the office today – no time for your mean provocations!

  482. Feeblegenius
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    gurgi:
    Your out on your ledge and you just wont back down.Thats fine.It tells a lot about you and tells a lot about Winter also.     

    You’re implying that Winter is guilty by association.

    gurgi: Yorick,
    This is frankly buffoonish.It is like stating if you support Black issues your are lining up with a homophobic force and you are thus painted with the same brush.The American Black community is probably the most homophobic group in America.    

    This is rich! I’m still enjoying how easily FaB can light your fuse. I doubt he’s going to apologize and say you were right all along, but keep trying…it’s fun to watch.

  483. Czarnian
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Fun to watch is an understatement. Its like watching Glenn Beck

  484. Brynn
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    I just wanted to come out of lurking to say…

    Some of you are REALLY REALLY funny. Even though the subject did get derailed to political bickering much too often, it really resulted in some comical comments that made me nearly snort my coffee through my nose. Thanks for that. :D

    I can’t and won’t comment on overly sensitive political diatribe of select few folks since I just skimmed their posts after the first, but I will agree that I think Loras/Renly relationship CAN be portrayed, even with extra sexual scenes included, in a tasteful way. I doubt it will have the depth of Brokeback Mountain because A) no Heath Ledger and B) GRRM just did not give them such material in the books. They were not the front and center story by any means. I think that if HBO and D&D want to tackle the homosexual relationship with any meat in the GoT series, they will have to do it very cleverly not to upset the fans who are loyal to the story as it is told in the books.

    But then again, True Blood deviated a lot and I think they did just fine in making the series very entertaining. But there are fans of the book who did not like the series at all.

  485. LivveHult
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    Yeah… typical I’m such a sucker I just have to go and skim them all eh..?
    :)
    Fire And Blood,

    Lengthy indeed.. :) Almost ends up in the same replycategory as the old Tamzin and whatnotdebates – this…
    LOL – and so was my post
    Which frankly was probably just as boring.. got into my own little flamemood there I see…
    Oh well! :D I’m hapier now…
    But CLEARLY you cannot see Gendry with Arya – it was soooo just a youthful fling….
    ;)
    I would like to intrest you in a small wager about these theories, Ser – but chances are I’ll have forgotten about it when the time comes! :) Plus I have not the slightest idea what to offer in wager.. If I were Cersei, I’d offer myself – but I see both technical and moral difficulties with that. So.
    Got any ideas? Or I’ll just wager Indigo – the color that the cat’s prefer.

  486. silverjaime
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Josh Parker: First off, the person who dragged the idea that America is a secular nation into this discussion wasn’t me. I had to point out the ignorance of that statement.
    Second, John voiced that he was offended, and what did FaB do? Apologize and state that wasn’t his intent? Address the concern with respect and then declare that we should move on from political discussion? No, he made another joke in poor taste assuming there’s no way John could be serious. And then AFTER that, he jokingly stated that he was trying to say the Tea Party doesn’t like spoilers.
    FaB fanned the flames, not us. Josh Parker

    Oh.My.GOD!!! What are you …9 ???? “we didn’t start it…HE did!”
    For god’s sake shut the hell up and take your childish whining somewhere else and give us all a break! My kids are in bed and I didn’t want to come on here and listen to more yapping! Get back on topic!

  487. silverjaime
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Petter Kristian Vikestad: Czarnian,
    Aftonbladet is not exactly known for it’s impartiality. No one cares what you might have heard in Sweden, and that is really besides the point. Now, I am neither American nor a right-winger, so the only real problem I have with this is the integrity of the website. If FaB refuses to own up the the fact that he belittled and stereotyped many viewers of this forum AND not to mention many more future viewers of the show, for nothing more than a cheap laugh, then I for one won’t let it go. If he, as moderator, can get away with that without as much as an excuse, then being fair, everybody offended by his “joke” should be able to call him a narrow-minded spineless cunt without fear of reprimands. Actively trying to turn away certain types of viewers is not a minor thing. This is not a minor issue. Petter Kristian Vikestad

    And as for this…..such a load of vitriol over an ill-judged comment! I can’t believe it warrants this level of vicious name-calling! Thank god I have nothing to do with USA politics – I used to think UK politicos were bad………
    That’s it – I’m off, until people like you have gone elsewhere for the night.

  488. GaR
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    I’m not above inflaming this further.

    If tea party supporters are so easily offended, then I’d suggest that their vulnerability to butthurt is the result of a guilty conscience or that they just need to harden up.

  489. Czarnian
    Posted January 25, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    Well put, Ser.

  490. Mescalinico
    Posted February 28, 2011 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    no doubt is possible that Blackfish be gay..but onestly, don’t know why, during my first reading i thought he had a crush on Hoster’s Wife. don’t know what with my brain, that was the first idea.

  1. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Athenae and The Rabbit, Winter Is Coming. Winter Is Coming said: New post: GoT gay? We GoT that! http://bit.ly/gQhCXD #GameofThrones […]

  2. […] is interesting from a number of angles. The original topic which involves a discussion on gay characters in Game of Thrones as well as a fandom that leans male and has a number of … err … oblivions in their […]

  3. […] is interesting from a number of angles. The original topic which involves a discussion on gay characters in Game of Thrones as well as a fandom that leans male and has a number of … err … oblivions in their number. […]

  4. […] is interesting from a number of angles. The original topic which involves a discussion on gay characters in Game of Thrones as well as a fandom that leans male and has a number of … err … oblivions in their number. […]


  • Recent Comments

  • RSS Recent Forum Topics

  • Archives

    • 2014 (1081)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •