Westeros has the scoop on a foreign network executive who attended the recent screening of the first two episodes of Game of Thrones in London. Göran Danasten, an executive from Swedish broadcaster SVT, was there and shared his thoughts on the show.
His remarks begin with high-praise for the cinematography and production values of the show, saying that its looks incredibly good and that viewers will love the visual quality. However, the skeptical side of him notes that of course, there has been a veritable parade of “grandiose” genre shows, many of them very good looking as well, and a show needs something more than just great looks to distinguish itself.
He admires HBO’s push to offer “accessible fantasy”, especially one that adds an extra layer of complexity beyond the usual clichés that genre fans may have come to expect. On the other hand, while the first two episodes are “fantastic”, there are a lot of characters, and a rather complex setting, introduced in a short time span which will be pretty demanding for viewers unfamiliar with the books and the genre. He’s also unsure that the first two episodes really reveal a lot about the greater depth of the series (presumably in comparison to similar genre shows in the past). Ultimately, he feels that the show will be one that needs time to grow its audience, to give them time to adjust themselves to its and realize all those additional complexities that set it apart.
He had high praise for the actors, suggesting that all-around it’s very well cast. He especially cites some of the newer ones, whom he described as “magically good”. Maise Williams (Arya Stark), he says, was born for this, and indicates she’s spectacular. He was also impressed with Richard Madden (Robb Stark). Among the veteran actors, he also feels that Dinklage is unforgettable as Tyrion. In response to a query about how fantastical the show is, he did feel that perhaps it was toned down a little compared to the novel.
In addition, the rumored screening for cast and crew last week apparently did happen and John Bradley West (Samwell) tweeted his thoughts on what he saw:
Utterly utterly breathtakingly brilliant. Uncompromising and sumptuous photography and mesmerising performances. Goosebumps all round. Cinematic in its visuals and effects. Brilliant direction and dialogue.
Winter Is Coming: More positive thoughts are always a plus. Especially good to hear the positivity from an outsider. Including more praise for Maisie. Looks like she is going to be quite the little star.
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148 Comments
Truly amaisieng the amount of news we get this week!!! And I for one am happy to hear an ‘outsider’ saying that the show might be a bit character-heavy at the beginning, as too many productions nowadays seem to be pre-chewed for easy digestion…
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
Sweet, I can’t wait for the series to launch!
How did they manage to make it less fantastical? One of the reedeeming qualities of ASOIAF is that it wasn’t filled with explicit magic and mythical beasts.
From what I”ve seen of the set, it seems as if they’ve done a tremendous job of getting all the little details in.
Alex RisteaQuote Reply
What does he mean by toned down fantastically compared to the novel? There’s hardly anything fantastical in the chapters that compose the first 2 episodes apart from the prologue with Gared Will and the Others.
TastesLikeTheSeaQuote Reply
Yeah the less fantastical remake seems a little odd. I hope he’s not referring to the Others who are the only fantastical thing to show up in the first two episodes. But one thing that’s great about HBO is that they don’t really push to dumb down a show for their audience. Which I take as a good thing regarding all the characters.
dizzy_34Quote Reply
TastesLikeTheSea,
My bet is that that’s exactly what he meant: there’s no cliché hocus pocus going on…
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
dizzy_34,
*remark
dizzy_34Quote Reply
I’m glad his biggest concern is the unavoidable one: lots and lots of characters are introduced, and viewers won’t have a handy family-tree at their hands like in the books.
KnurkQuote Reply
Tar Kidho,
sorry, didn’t read the last line of his comment very well. Basically, I have no idea what he could mean because as far as we know they stick very well to the story… Maybe he was just expecting more fantastical elements and didn’t actually read the book?
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
TastesLikeTheSea,
I imagine he’s referring to things like Robert’s hammer being so large that Ned couldn’t lift it on his own, or the Knight of Flowers’ technicolored armor, etc. These things aren’t really all that realistic.
Michael JarantillaQuote Reply
Michael Jarantilla,
Of course. That would make sense. A pity in some ways, but in terms of appealing to a wider audience, I guess it’s ultimately for the best.
GaRQuote Reply
Michael Jarantilla,
Yes that does makes sense. Maybe he’s referring to the size of the direwolves too.
TastesLikeTheSeaQuote Reply
Maybe the connection between the kids and the dire wolves isn’t as fantastical as in the books.
It’s kind of comforting that the most negative point he has is the same as has been most agreed upon here as a difficulty – the amount of characters. I’m however also quite sure that Göran is familiar with the story and his thought is more a fear of how newcomers will experience it, and not that he actually thought it was too many characters to be enjoyable.
Johan SporreQuote Reply
Don’t forget — he’s looking at this from the perspective of a distributor. It doesn’t matter how good it is, he has to assess it for ratings. I’m sure an executive would have a lot of terrible things to say about the Wire: too many characters, too morally ambivalent, it’s unlike other shows in the genre, who is the good guy?
Mr. FreyQuote Reply
Yeah, he shouldn’t worry too much about the lots and lots of characters introduced, because as the season goes on the number of characters will be quickly reduced! LOL!
purplejillyQuote Reply
Mr. Frey,
Even more importantly: who is the bad guy?! One of the things I absolutely loved about The Wire was that it wasn’t afraid to make the system the main antagonist of the series. Seriously one of the best television shows ever made.
I do think that a comparison to The Wire could be apt when it comes to getting into the series. When I first started watching The Wire I checked out the DVD’s from my campus library in college. (I had heard that it was one of the greatest series ever made and had some time to kill so I figured, why not?) The first episode I felt a little disoriented as I was kind of just thrown into this world that all the characters had been living in and taking for granted for years. They felt like fully formed characters but I didn’t know them yet and didn’t have one of those characteristic “new guys” to follow along with as I am introduced to new concepts. Game of Thrones was very similar in a way. When I first started reading it I felt a little disoriented. Everyone was already a fully formed character living in a fully formed world and they didn’t take the time to sit there and explain it all to me before getting on with the story.
Ultimately I think that it makes it a much stronger tale overall but some people can be a little put off by just being dropped in. (think jumping into the deep end versus easing into a pool at the shallow end) I think the real payoff is that the early episodes (early chapters) don’t feel like a different show (book) on rewatch. (reread)
GeckoQuote Reply
I’d say the Wall is another fantastic element in the first two episodes. Only other thing that might possibly be in there (aside from the direwolves, but I imagine they’re pretty small in the first two eps), is Bran’s dreams/visions.
The complexity of the story and large cast was always my biggest worry. Of course, this is another reason HBO is a plus. They will air the new episodes at least 4 – 6 times the first week, they will likely re-air earlier episodes later in the season, and will certainly re-air all the episodes after the season concludes. Hopefully all the episodes will be available in On-Demand packages right away, as well. I think we can all agree that it will be nearly impossible for any non-readers to follow the story without watching all the episodes in order.
the goatQuote Reply
Johan Sporre,
If they’re following the book, there wouldn’t be anything blatantly mystical going on with the direwolves in those early episodes anyway. As for the other things Michael mentioned above: Loras’s armor doesn’t appear till later; I can’t remember where Robert’s hammer is described, but it was to scale with book-Robert who is a much bigger guy than TV-Robert.
Honestly I can’t think of anything Danasten could be referring to other than the Others. But that’s no surprise, since the early reviews of the pilot script already mentioned that the weird capabilities of the Others (presumably meaning their wight-making) wouldn’t be revealed right away.
mummerQuote Reply
Yes, but it easier to remember a face, a location or a scene that a read name on paper.
CaedesQuote Reply
He could be referring to some of the special effect vistas we haven’t really seen much of. The book has some amazing detail of how massive winterfell is. It might have been scaled back. It has a multi acre wood enclosed in its walls, multiple keeps and courtyards and a glass enclosed vegetable garden of some size
markQuote Reply
Knurk,
Hopefully this wont be an issue. I have faith in HBO subscribers and actually believe that they are kind viewers that will watch a series with some patient.
David TQuote Reply
Knurk,
I’d actually be pretty shocked if the GoT website doesn’t have some sort of character list/appendix by the premiere date.
the goatQuote Reply
“a lot of characters … complex setting … short time span … pretty demanding for [unfamiliar] viewers.”
HBO will have the extended version of “Inside Game of Thrones” On Demand along with something the “Inside Westeros”, “Meet the Starks”, etc.
Also, each episode will be On Demand so we can watch them again and again. I know I will.
“Maise Williams (Arya Stark) … born for this…”
Indeed. I bet she’s smooth as summer silk.
MikeQuote Reply
Cersei’s Wheelhouse is something fantastical that will be tonned down I would think.
Maybe only 1 deck (rather than 2) and 10 horses (rather than 40).
We probably will not see the Others too clearly though.
MormegilQuote Reply
For some people. I remember names on paper much easier than faces or spoken names. Probably in the minority though.
pualoQuote Reply
Do you get to wondering if the Others might not be seen at all in the prologue? Of course you see Gareth, Will & Royce, their reactions, the unnamed-HORROR they see and the backing away/fighting to survive. Maybe a glow from above, or the swords leading forward and the voices/crackles/laughter, and then our friends in black are cut down screaming, and we are left to our imaginations. Like the beginning of a horror film…
As for it being too ‘dense’ for non-readers, bring it on! I think the general public needs some meat to sink its teeth into, we’re all so TIRED of bs reality programming and the 24/7 news cycle that keeps us up at night. This is gonna be escapism, purer that what we’ve seen in a long time. A show with a sturdy foundation might just stand up longer. Like 7 seasons long. Maybe eight ;)
Tucking away supernatural elements for later in the story gives it room to develop, and for the audience to invest itself. It is known. You don’t show all your cards at once ;)
Franny BeeQuote Reply
Franny Bee,
Leaked pilot script spoilers: The Others do appear in the prologue. There is a detailed description of them, their swords, and their armor that is pretty much lifted straight from the books. Of course, we also know they reshot the prologue, so it’s anyone’s guess what we’ll actually see.
the goatQuote Reply
The magical system in the novels lends itself well to adaptation. Unlike most fantasy series magic isn’t central in ASoIaF, the meat is in the character-driven narrative.
Just give me a bigger, scarier direwolf and I’m happy with whatever level of majiks they can swing within the production parameters
heroine addictQuote Reply
I think the critical remarks are indeed key ones and legitimate for the show and the season. There is a genuine danger that so many characters will be confusing to viewers and turn them off.
I am confident every attempt was made to ease viewers into the mass of people as much as possible but in order to tell the story Martin wrote, stretches were likely made in the story-telling.
I want and hope for the television success as much as anybody, and I am quite confident it will be great FOR ME, but this problem is one that could hurt the series with the fee-paying audience.
It will be fascinating to watch the media as the series unfolds.
Larry D CurtisQuote Reply
Ah. The overload of characters? Yep this is no doubt the biggest issue I had when I read the series. Some of them didnt begin to cement themselves as real people until the sec0nd or third time I read the books. The audiobooks also helped.
Anyone get kinda annoyed at the height of the wall? 700 feet high? Really? The great wall of China is only 60 feet high in places. Hadrians wall was only15-20 feet high with towers every couple of hundred yards.
I always felt that a wall of 200-250 feet would be way more believable. After all the Pyramids were only 450 feet high and the Eiffel tower just around 800. Sure it is magical but really were is the details of why it is so damn high?
At 700 feet high arrows shot from the ground couldnt reach the top but GRR Martin has the wildlings firing from the ground and hitting people on the top. I dont see it is possible. Period.
The wall is a kinda joke to me in all honesty.
gurgiQuote Reply
The second I met Richard Madden I knew that kid was going places. It’s so cool that I’m always going to be able to say, I gave Robb Stark a pack of cigarettes.
He is both a gentleman, and a scholar, and I applaud him for what I know will be a fantastic performance in this show. I hope he gets the credit he deserves for his role in this.
RomulocksQuote Reply
I find the height of the wall to be unrealistic, but I don’t know why that would make it annoying. Things like this separate realism from fantasy: like GRRM has said, fantasy is bigger. Harrenhal, The Eyrie, and Storm’s End are unrealistic, fantasized versions of castles. As for if there is a particular reason why the Wall is 700 feet, I haven’t noticed, but maybe it hasn’t been revealed yet. Maybe it’s just because it was built to keep out a threat that nearly annihilated mankind, and they went a little overboard in building it. *shrugs*
JackSparrowQuote Reply
gurgi,
Thanks for that history lesson. You’re right, this whole thing is totally bollocks! Now I don’t have to watch, or wait for the new books!
Dragons, mystical trees, and ladies that birth killer shadows . . . those are all completely believable. But no way can I suspend my disbelief any longer when I find out this giant wall of ice is higher than an unladen arrow can reasonably fly!!!
That makes sense.
the goatQuote Reply
JackSparrow,
Obviously the Wall is in fact a sleeping ice dragon, and it is known that they are always 700 ft thick…
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
hee.
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
Actually, the height of the Wall is not such unrealistic if you consider it was being constantly built for thousands of years. Heck, if you’d have an army of men dedicated mainly to waiting for some action to happen and you can’t exactly allow them to go whoring they HAVE to keep their hands on doing something. If every LC raised the Wall by 1 ft on average, this is the height you’d expect. Thus said I don’t argue that such an enormous construction has any strategic sense.
Black LionQuote Reply
I am the opposite. Especially because in the books a name is always used to introduce a new character when they speak. In a movie or TV show, unless they are addressed directly by name then that is not always the case.
JamieQuote Reply
Fantastical elements “toned down” from the books?
What could possibly be toned down? GOT is probably the least fantastical of all the books (except, perhaps, for the soap opera of AFFC).
I hope they haven’t turned it into a costume drama devoid of all its fantasy and imagination.
I’m especially concerned about the appearance of the Others in what is probably the very first scene. How can we see them… without SEEING them? They are supposed to be armored. Perhaps if they’re fully armored, with helmets and masks, we can delay a look at their faces until season three. That would make it tougher to play on their frigid inhumanity as a real threat, but might satisfy those who are leery of seeming too “fantastical.”
But… “toned down?”
ChrisQuote Reply
gurgi,
Regarding the height of the wall, if I remember correctly, amongst other things, [spoiler]12 feet high giants[/spoiler] dwell beyond the wall. They would have had to account for that. Then again, I’m trying to rationalize fantasy… :)
Mr. MonsieurQuote Reply
Arrows could easily reach the top of the wall. Medieval bows were able to reach 500 yards.
Besides, realism isn’t a primary concern of art.
SteveQuote Reply
http://www.extrasni.com/news
Has anyone posted that already? I don’t have time to read all the comments :( A newsletter from Extras NI… They are writting about Seson 2 of GOT :)
Karolina BartnikQuote Reply
OT – have we got a definite YES yet for a second season? because ExtrasNI are asking for people to register with them and saying in their ad “and not only the second season of “Game of Thrones” ….” So I just wondered if we had definite word – because obviously they have!
silverjaimeQuote Reply
I do kind of worry that viewers who haven’t read the book or aren’t familiar with this world will have trouble digesting it all. Whether these viewers make the commitment to stick with it is going to be the key to it’s sucess. We know if they stick with it the payoff is HUGE. My wife, who hasn’t read the books, will be a good indicator for me if this is going to fly for the casual viewer (fingers crossed).
jdp13Quote Reply
@ Karolina Bartnik
That’s some sweet news, thanks a lot! WiC, can we get some sort of confirmation soon?
@ Steve
Well, 500 ft isn’t 700 ft, is it? And the shot would have to be almost vertical. But honestly, who cares? It’s a fantasy and they could well have sniper rifles if it was properly explained.
Black LionQuote Reply
500 Yards (not feet) is 1500 feet (twice the height of the Wall).
MormegilQuote Reply
silverjaime,
Nah… They don’t actually flat out say that filming will happen. Only that they are searching for extras – which may just be preparations in case a second season happens. We know preparations are already on the way in other areas of the production, and this is supposed to be standard for tv-productions.
sjweningsQuote Reply
Black Lion,
Maybe it became a sort of ego competition between LCs, to see how much extra footage they could add to the wall during their reign. You know how it is with guys, they worry all the time that size matters!! And maybe it does, with giant unknown monsters skittering down from the North now and then..
purplejillyQuote Reply
gurgi,
The problem with a 700 ft wall seems to me that you have to be careful, it’s easy to lose a lot of your Night’s Watch men from falling off the wall.. You fall off a 20 foot wall into the snow you might be okay. You fall off a 700 foot wall you got serious problems. And no matter how much sand or gravel you lay down, a wall of ice is always going to be slippery..
purplejillyQuote Reply
Popular fanwank (popular with me, anyway ;) ) is that the giants with the wildling army were the ones firing the arrows which reached the top of the Wall (12-foot-tall giants armed with their equivalent of English longbows could do it without it being too much of a stretch, pun intended).
True, but in direct or arcing fire, not going straight up (and every foot he steps back from the Wall adds a foot to the range; he’d need to be hundreds of feet further back to even see the top of the Wall properly). Take the best medieval longbow ever made, give it to the best archer in the world and tell him stand underneath the Eiffel Tower and hit a human-sized target standing on top and he won’t be able to do it.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Adam Whitehead,
To be fair, the Eiffel tower is a third taller than the wall.
elreylocoQuote Reply
After reading the original twitter post, in Swedish, I must say that “the show is toned down compared to the novel” isn’t what he said. It might be the meaning but it’s not certain.
“It feels like it’s toned down. The feeling is, relatively, a “realism” but in another world…”
would be my translation, and the question was “may I ask how big the fantasy parts are? I’ve understood that the books have dragons and black magic and no fairies & trolls.”
To me, he’s not referring to show vs novels but just the world in general. But it’s ambiguous.
ImpQuote Reply
Adam Whitehead,
Just to be even fanwankier, may I point out that the wildlings didn’t really need to aim at individual people up on the Wall– they were just firing zillions of arrows up there and a few of them found targets.
mummerQuote Reply
That’s always bugged me, too. Not enough to think on it more than 10 seconds, but I noticed it. Just too dang high. Would have been SO much better to make it 100 feet or so… (sigh) Oh well.
EdQuote Reply
100 feet? That would be extremely simple to climb over (you could easily use ladders) so the wildlings would go over it in droves with minimal effort. Unless the Wall is extremely tall there’s zero chance that so few watchmen could keep it.
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
Ed,
How on earth could the night’s watch defend 100 odd miles of wall only 100 feet high … now that would be suspending belief!
CrannogmanQuote Reply
It’s funny that we are debating the logistics behind a wall that was made to keep out The Others, ice zombies, mammoths, giants, and who knows what else…
While it’s a realistic fantasy, it’s still a fantasy. There’s still a lot of things that wouldn’t add up in the real world.
ChrisQuote Reply
I think the wall, being as high as it is, is supposed to make us wonder what the hell could be SO bad that it needs to be that high. It is supposed to make us dread the land beyond the wall, and wonder at the power of days gone by. I think it does a good job of both.
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
That would depend a lot on the expected foe, wouldn’t it?
If the foes are dead and their plan is to avoid you and just drive at the heart of your populatoin centres to the south to increase their number and then totally overwhelm you with numbers — then your best plan is to build an enchanted Wall they cannot go throigh on their own and build it high enough so they can’t climb over it, either.
The dead are a virus that replicates on its own. It’s a Zombie Apocalypse. You can’t let afford to let even one wight get through and reach a town – or you are screwed.
So you build a wall. Ordinarily, you could build that wall maybe 40 – or 60, 80 or even 100 feet tall. And that would *surely* be tall enough.
The problem with the Long Night is this: what do you do when the snow falls and drifts for YEARS, never melting, and drifts so high that it reaches right up to the top of the wall – a natural ice ramp that is miles across and makes contact with the upper part of the wall at multiple points along its length.
And the problem is, the prophecy shows that the snow will drift and do this even if the top of that wall is *hundreds* of feet high?
So what do you do? Answer – you build it even higher and higher and higher still — and hope the snow drifts don’t get so deep and compacted that they ultimately reach the top of the Wall. Because if they do? You are screwed.
That is the only reason you need a wall 700 feet high. You need it that high because the prophecy shows that the snow keeps falling, keeps drifting, and never, ever, stops. Not once. Not for years. Maybe not for decades.
That’s the reason the Wall is 700 feet tall.
Steel_WindQuote Reply
Steel_Wind,
You make a compelling case. o.o
I honestly hadn’t ever thought of that before. Sucks for all the people in normal, ground-level homes. That’s a lot of shoveling….
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
For context:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Life_Insurance_Company_Tower
This building is exactly 700 feet tall. (50 stories, plus architectural details on top).
Dennis BrennanQuote Reply
Steel_Wind,
Isn’t there a fair chance of glaciation if the snow is that deep?
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
Steel_Wind,
Is there anything in the books to suggest that wights beget wights? I sort of assumed they were the result of something the Others did (though I have no evidence for that either).
GaRQuote Reply
GaR,
There’s evidence specifically against it. In the first wight attack at Castle Black, they killed several people and those people stayed dead.
mummerQuote Reply
Critics are getting their first promo-packages from HBO. And many more to come he says. Time to brace ourselves I imagine, friggin’ awesome!
KnurkQuote Reply
@ wall debate:
I’m a structural engineer and I can tell you that a 700 ft tall vertical stone wall is not possible, let alone an ice one.
Here is the physics: stone crushes at between 200 to 1200 lbs/square inch of pressure depending its materials. Stone weighs between 100 lbs/cu ft and 150 lbs/cu ft. The denser stone is stronger so lets 500 psi and 140 pcf. At those dimensions a stone wall crushes at 514 ft. In order to work the base would have to be very wide, so much it wouldn’t look like a wall at all.
DigDougQuote Reply
Knurk,
Firstly, that is awesome. Secondly, notice how there’s no Dorne on that map? Plus is the placement of Tyrell Rose is off, right?
fevredreamQuote Reply
Steel_Wind,
I was rather thinking some 300 feet structure would suffice in the terms of keeping giants, mammoths and the like at bay. Even if the Long Night re-occured, during which the snow cover amounted to – as reported by Old Nan ;) – 100 feet high, there would be still over 200 feet of wall looming over the snow layer. 700 feet high structure does not give you any additional defense, it just gets narrower towards the top and any transport requires much more effort.
Black LionQuote Reply
DigDoug,
One of the points in creating a fantasy world and story is that you don’t have to adhere to real world physics all the time. You wouldn’t be able to build the Eyrie with their level of technology and with the difficulties of even a single person getting up there either, to name one of the other examples. Despite that the series is closer to realism than many other stories in the genre there’s still plenty of things that have to be explained with mystic reasons.
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
fevredream,
For me the rose placement is ok, it just couldn’t overlap with the Highgarden inscription. The Dorne does not play a single pawn in AGOT so it is good they are keeping them out of the picture for now. I was rather surprised by the size of Tully’s fiefdom but then I remembered that Harrenhal was “theirs”.
Black LionQuote Reply
Yeah, like how the heck people out there know/remember what happened, like, 10 thousand years ago.
Black LionQuote Reply
Tywin’s Bastard,
Agreed.
But in response to the debate about a wall needed to keep out giants only needing to be 300 ft, it might be instructive to think of that wall on a slope that a baby could crawl up.
Sarcasm wins everytime. Its like the email chain about Santa not following the laws of thermodynamics.
DigDougQuote Reply
Steel_Wind,
I never thought about long years of snow drifts, but that does make a valid point in my brain, and so perhaps that is why it has to be 700 feet high. Maybe it’s made of unobtanium ice, so it doesn’t have to be so wide at the bottom and so narrow at the top..
purplejillyQuote Reply
Tar Kidho,
It is known.
MikeQuote Reply
purplejilly,
I think it might be, you know, magic…. ;-)
Seriously, Brandon the Builder built the wall. Brandon helped build Storms end which is also enchanted etc etc. It’s magic folks… move on!
Patrick L EllisQuote Reply
Of course size matters! And I suspect that women claiming the opposite are just shallow… (my appologies for this ‘joke’, I saw it at some stand-up comedian’s show once and for some unclear reason it stuck. Been waiting to use it ever since ;-)
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
Knurk,
this is huge news! pretty cool. This should be a news entry
MarkQuote Reply
ChrisQuote Reply
Somehow this makes me proud of being swedish… Go illogical nationalism! yey!
LivveHultQuote Reply
I’d be more curious to discuss the possibility of a horn capable of knocking down a 700 ft tall wall that stretches hundreds of miles when blown…. :)
ChrisQuote Reply
It’s worth noting that the Wall was originally built much smaller (we don’t know how small) and gradually built up in size over millennia (presumably due to the magic properties of the Wall) of attracting fresh ice onto it. The original construction was probably much simpler (building a 300-mile-long wall is a huge undertaking, but not unprecedented in real life: the Great Wall of China is more than 10 times longer than that).
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
To be honest, the height of the Wall never bothered me nearly as much as the exaggerated time spans. I could believe if the Starks ruled the North for 1,000 years… but 10,000? Totally unbelievable, and it’s one of my biggest criticisms of the series.
LexQuote Reply
It’s not the Horn itself…it’s what is said would be awakened by the blowing of the horn that would do the actual Wall-busting.
ZackQuote Reply
I always assumed some serious magic went into the building of the Wall, what with all that stuff with tunnels that only NW members could pass through.
That said I think we shouldn’t just shrug off every inconsistency with “it’s fantasy you guys”. I mean GRRM has created a complex and detailed world here, there are fantastic creatures but within GRRM’s world it always felt like it could plausibly happen. So something blatantly unrealistic (like a 700ft wall) should be dissected and rationalised, not just shrugged off.
PeltastQuote Reply
Knurk,
Amazing find..well done…
coltaine777Quote Reply
Knurk,
Hey, I saw something on that map in the promo pack, hopefully an error on the part of whomever created it. Storms End is located inland, not on the coast. If they did move inland, could it be because they found a cool castle to use, and didn’t want to create this fantasical castle on a cliff with CGI.
That brings up another suggestion to the less fantastical question, perhaps all the castles and cities are more realistic. Therefore smaller, less elaborate and they could use the actual locales with less CGI work. This way they can use Bodiam Castle as a stand in for Riverun, with minimal CGI.
TysnowQuote Reply
Lex,
You and me both. I’m just shocked he stopped at 10,000 instead of going for “bajillion.”
KGQuote Reply
i always took the date descriptions with a grain of salt. The Maesters don’t exactly have carbon dating. And, how many modern cultures have questionable accounting of Earth’s age? 5000 years?
MarkQuote Reply
coltaine777,
Well, not that amazing if you knew I just found it out by followinging the tweets of WiC and Elio&Linda. Just spreading the news. Man, if I could get a hold on a case like that….
KnurkQuote Reply
I wonder how much those will go for on ebay.
TysnowQuote Reply
i am so excited to see maisie williams as arya. it seems as if she’s going to be the breakout star! arya is absolutely my favorite character and i have every right to believe that maisie’s going to defy our expectations and be absolutely fantastic!
CatieQuote Reply
I don’t think there is much doubt of that. Melisandre calls it a place of great power, “one of the great hinges of the world”. We know that the Wall blocks empathic communication between a Warg and his “owner”, too (But *doesn’t* block the three eyed-crow — perhaps because the 3EC can fly high enough that he can have his senses not be blocked by it? Line of sight thing? This seems the most likely explantion to me).
We also have some direct evidence of spells of preservation deep within the Wall itself. This seems the best explanation why the Wall has many texts that are so well preserved they are thousands of years older than those in Oldtown, an ancient city the very [i]purpose[/i] of which is to preserve texts.
Melisandre explains that there are spells of protection buried within the walls of all of the great fortresses of Westeros. Can there be any doubt that these spells exist in a place like Storm’s End, but not in a place like The Wall? I don’t think so.
It is also the best explantion behind Aemon Targaryen’s age. His bloodline is especially sensitve to the preservation spells within the Wall and that is what keeps him alive long past his natural span. When he leaves the proximity of the Wall — he dies.
All that plus the Nightgate? Can there be any doubt that the Wall is inherently magical and this is what explains its improbable construction and preservation over the years?
Steel_WindQuote Reply
Will make a new post once I receive mine. ;)
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
I did not hate you until this moment. :)
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Wow, you will get a promo-package?! Could you make a video and make comments about EVERY little detail in it? That would be so cool!
AbyssQuote Reply
Abyss,
Mh, reading that again it sounds a bit like sarcasm, but it is not, I am absolute serious! ^^
AbyssQuote Reply
The problem is not the height of the wall, it is that wildlings fire arrows that can reach the top. A five hundred yard (extreme range under ideal conditions) assumes level ground at worst. Even if you could get your arrows up that high in their arc, at that point all of their energy would be potential and they would do no damage (damage being cause by kinetic energy. GRRM should have just never had arrows going up there. All other parts of the suspension of disbelief work together beautifully as mythology made real, except that. That’s just sloppy physics.
It’s one flaw in thousands of pages of wonder. Give the man a freaking break.
JQuote Reply
About the wall’s height, I don’t remember any specific passages that alluded to it, but I always pictured the arrows coming from nearby hills..maybe even cliffs that would have made them a little more “level”, and I also thought that the wall was 700 feet tall at its highest, so I just assumed other areas were much shorter, though maybe that doesn’t make sense given where the battle involving the salvoes of arrows takes place.
righteous9Quote Reply
And we have no idea how long literate cultures can preserve their records without serious upheavals. We can talk about recorded and recorded/mythologized history going back about four thousand years in our own world, and fragmentary remains going back more than fifteen hundred more years before that, who know how much longer recorder history will continue?
JQuote Reply
PHUN WITH PHYSICS.
now, frictionless projectile physics don’t necessarily model the behavior of a true arrow, but, check out this site:
http://www.craville.110mb.com/calculators/proj.htm
Using meters instead of yards, and knowing that 45 degrees generally maximizes range, I plugged in initial velocity numbers until I got a range of 500m.
Then I changed angle of fire to 80 degrees. The projectile makes it to 242m which is a decent bit over 700 ft. But of course there would be no y-velocity at the top. x-velocity is around 12 m/s. I don’t know if thats deadly.
But then of course, consider:
a) It would have to be some pretty beefy longbows to do 500m.
b) maybe they were shooting from sentinel trees.
c) who cares. its close enough. Maybe they were super-ancient-magic-arr0ws-of-the-first-men
MarkQuote Reply
Off topic, but I finally watched The Station Agent, and Death at a Funeral. Both good, especially the former. I previously only knew Dinklage from Elf, Narnia, and an episode of 30 rock. I’m a bigger fan now!
LexQuote Reply
I don’t really recall from the books how this battle exactly worked out, but would it make sense if we supposed the Wildlings tried to shoot over the Wall, and not just onto the top of it? maybe they wanted to kill the NW that were going about their business behind the Wall… surely if the arrows went up that high, then over the wall, the gravity on the other side would have made them lethal for anyone trying to arrange things behind the Wall on the Night Watch side.
cleganeQuote Reply
I had not considered that explanation of Aemon but I like it.
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
I think debating why the Wall is 700 feet high is a complete waste of your own (and readers) time.
Can’t wait to see Maisie in the show :)
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Tywin’s Bastard,
It’s a speculation made by the Black Brothers in Braavos in FfC
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
Steve Reynolds,
Ha! I must have completely forgotten about that part then. Luckily I haven’t reread Feast yet so I can at least blame it somewhat on that.
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
clegane,
The brothers set up dummies on the wall and named them for their missing friends to boost their apparent numbers. Some were ‘killed’ over and over.
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
I like it that he mentions Maisie specially. I really think she will be great and steal the show.
NielsQuote Reply
Lex,
Did you watch the British version of Death at a Funeral? I think that one is a lot better than the American one (a very unnecesarry remake). The Station Agent is a great movie, Dinklage owned that movie.
KnurkQuote Reply
Agreed. I watched The Station Agent years ago in college for a film class and then had my wife watch it recently and she loved it as well. I also agree that the British Death at a Funeral is much, much better than the US remake.
JamieQuote Reply
Sounds very promising!
HBOForum.comQuote Reply
This has been raised with Martin. First off, he said the dates going much past 2,000 years or so are in some cases monstrously exaggerated (seemingly supported by Sam theorising that there’s only been 600 LCs rather than the claimed 998). Secondly, there are often cadet branches and lesser branches of the houses that aren’t talked about much (the Lannisport Lannisters I think have been referenced) but could take over if the main house was extinguished. IIRC, there was even the suggestion that maybe sometimes the houses have been wiped out and another family has taken over the name to preserve continuity (presumably not the Starks, though, given that it may be important for the modern Starks to be descended from Bran the Builder, builder of the Wall) and this has been lost. And obviously a lot of the houses are a lot younger – the Baratheons are only 300 years old, whilst the Tyrells, Greyjoys and Tullys could be quite young as well (the Tullys have been around for about 1,000 years, for example; the Greyjoys are descended from kings 5,000 years ago but it’s not clear how old the name is; we don’t know how long the Tyrells were stewards before House Gardner’s fall). The Martells are also only about 1,000 years old.
Only the Starks, Lannisters and Arryns have really huge ages, and only the Starks are truly ridiculous. It could be that the age-preservation spells built into the Wall and possibly Winterfell might play a role in that (because the Starks defeated the Others first time around, it’s destiny or something that they do it again), but I suspect it’s more just dramatic convenience.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Dennis Brennan,
thank you for the memories. My dad worked there for 40 years and I spent many a childhood day there visiting. 1 Madison Avenue. :)
mike careyQuote Reply
Can’t wait for the rest, and goodness me, I WANT one of those boxes!
So er Winter, since you will recieve such a promo box, don’t you think it would be really cool to have some kind of a contest with that as the prize? ;-)
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
THIS. ):
BUT, I’m really glad Adam pointed out what GRRM has had to say about it, as it clarifies that the author realizes it is ridiculous. I had hoped it was something like that, so it’s good to know he’s confirmed it.
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
Ed,
700 feet is impossibly high, but I like that aspect of it the most. In dreams the dimensions of things are often ridiculously “larger than life”. For me comparable height of The Wall makes the sequences involving it more archetypal and epic.
heroine addictQuote Reply
Steve Hugh Westenra,
A lot of elements of ASOIAF play off of the unreliable narrative narrator in a major way, so having minor details like ages of various things in ancient history affected by this makes perfect sense. You have to take the exposition with a grain of salt in this series.
SockMonkehQuote Reply
SockMonkeh,
Yeah, I definitely realized and expected that in terms of a lot of other aspects of the story. When reading that part though, I remember thinking, “Oh god, I hope he doesn’t really think that’s realistic.” My father had the same reaction and I remember suggesting that perhaps it was meant to be an erroneous belief of the characters. It’s just nice to have confirmation of a kind from GRRM, because it was still something that made me wince a little, haha.
As to things like the wall and Cersei’s massive carriage, my mind tends to auto-correct them in my head to more manageable sizes. ;p
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
I’d say that being in a medieval environment and believing that a house has been ruling for 10 000 years is far less strange than people in our modern society thinking that the Earth is 5 000 years old. I never got the impression that the series told such facts in a direct narrative, only though the beliefs of characters (plus that characters at times question the facts).
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
While we’re on the subject of unbelievable scale in ASOIAF, I just re-read a line where Jon Snow thinks of Dorne as “10,000 leagues away”, which is roughly the entire circumference of an earth-sized planet. I think it’s best not to take these things too literally…
Tom HiltonQuote Reply
I always assumed that characters saying “10,000 years” were doing the same as Catelyn when she says “a thousand leagues away”
GaRQuote Reply
This is such a weird discussion in my opinion. When I read fantasy, I don’t expect everything to make sense in a rational way. In fact, the very definition of ‘fantasy’ to me is that the world and story are free from the many physical and social constraints we know as reality. For me it should represent an escape from reality.
When I was reading the books, I was so ‘into’ the story that I never even questioned the 700 ft high wall or the 1000 yr Stark reign. Those are just facts in the world of Westeros, so how can they be unrealistic? I can just read the books and my imagination is free enough to accept everything that GRRM writes. Well, there are some things that unfortunately dragged me out of the flow of the story (for instance the resurection of Catelyn), though not because I thought ‘hey, that’s just not realistic’, but rather in the sense that I didn’t like their effect on where it leads the rest of the story.
There is lots of other fiction out there that is set in realistic frameworks (historical drama, most science fiction), so if one’s imagination has problems to accept a 700ft high wall or a reign of a 1000 years, then maybe one should look elsewhere… In other words: it’s not wrong to question things going on in a story, but if you find yourself questioning the very core of the genre that you’re reading (i.e. the fact that it is fantasy), then maybe another genre would suite you better… But who am I to decide what one should or should not read ;-)
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
Tar Kidho,
sorry, typo, that was supposed to read ’10000 yr Stark reign…
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
Tar Kidho,
I just love discussing this stuff. Debating relative realism in a fantasy setting may be pointless, but it’s still fun :P
GaRQuote Reply
Just a thought, is Caitlyn and every other character whose been resurrected essentialy an Other or one of their Weights? It’s been a while since I read it, but I believe it was by the red priest, but couldn’t he and the Others be using the same type of “magic?”
TQuote Reply
T,
Others aren’t undead, or at least we have no reason to assume so. They seem to be something else entirely. I think of them as “ice demons” personally, though that’s nebulous enough a term that it’s close to meaningless.
But is Catelyn anything like a wight? Other than being raised from the dead, there’s little similarity. She does have somewhat in common with Coldhands, who has been described as a “good wight” by some.
Also, use spoiler tags, yo. That some late-game spoiler action you got going on.
GaRQuote Reply
The enormous walls for Winterfell I imagined were constructed for the same reason as the WALL. That winters lasting 2 years to 5 or 6, which I remember according to somewhere was considered an abnormally long span, would cause snow to pile up endlessly. Then of course snowdrifts would add further to the height. The walls height is such to protect the realm against the Long Night, where snow depth reaches over 100 feet, add drifts piling up and as mentioned earlier on this post you then can have a depth almost 500 feet in places.
Though how did they build the wall then, since you would have to start with a foundation and I am certain it took many centuries for all that snow to melt, so they would have to dig down to earth all along the length before construction could begin (that is one big snow removal project.
TysnowQuote Reply
Steve Reynolds,
I’ve always believed that this is the sense GRRM is trying to convey too. Other good points include that a 100 Foot wall would be a pretty simple matter to climb over. Remember, it was built to literally shut off the northern reaches of a continent. It would have to be damn big. 700 ft doesn’t sound like that much of a stretch for a castle wall all things considered.
TheFacelessManQuote Reply
Tywin’s Bastard,
I think the 10,000 year thing, even if it’s not meant to be taken literally, fits with GRRM’s general approach to the series: keeping one foot in mythic territory while the other foot is firmly planted in real human life. We’re constantly reminded that underneath the surface of day-to-day life, these characters are facing some pretty huge, strange, and scary forces that don’t correspond to anything in our experience. And then Martin does his best to imagine how actual people would respond to those things (including ignoring them in many cases). A 700-foot Wall keeping out unknown grumkins is something we’ve never seen, but it stands in pretty well for all kinds of things that people are afraid of and would rather not deal with– the big difference being that most of those things in real life are impossible for any one person to really confront in person and see the truth of, whereas the Wall is a place you could actually go if you decided to, so it makes the characters’ decisions about it stand out more clearly. The depth of history in Westeros is kind of like that. There are plenty of characters who don’t really care about it, or who only care about one part that has special meaning for them, but they all know there’s a lot of it.
mummerQuote Reply
silverjaime,
Hi silverjamie, how you been? I registered for another year with ExtrasNI on Sunday past.The impression I got from talking to those folks was that season two is a pretty safe bet. I hope you are signing up this year, I know you would really enjoy working on GOT/COK.
Two FeathersQuote Reply
Knurk,
lol and your honest too…well thankyou for bringing it to everyone’s attention…
coltaine777Quote Reply
Steel_Wind, interesting post! I had not thought of Maester Aemon’s age in this way.
^ This, basically. :D
PeltastQuote Reply
The various classes of undead is sort of interesting…Pardon me if I’m repeating anything, but I haven’t read through all comments. here’s the things that are rattling around in my head. When Aemon is putting things together in his mind on his journey, he tells Sam, ‘ Fire consumes, but Ice preserves ‘ and I think he adds something about he should have known, or that Sam must tell Jon..have to check exact quote.
Then, on the Ice side , we have, perhaps , Coldhands ,and the Others, who can create wights ; while on the fire side , we see Thoros raises Beric, but when he thinks Catelyn is too long dead for ressurrection , Beric raises Catelyn himself..Mind you, he may cease to exist in the process..that’s at least hinted at, but with GRRM hints don’t always lead to facts.
It seems to me this all has to be part of some larger system ( or two ) but I can’t imagine how it all hangs together. ;)
obsidianQuote Reply
My edit button says that should read ..(they) are interesting.
And now thatI’ve read back over the thread a bit I have to add my voice to those crying out against complaints about the size of the wall.
C’mon, get UNREAL. Gritty and character driven it may be, but this is fantasy. Magic and Dragons,and Others, Oh, my !
obsidianQuote Reply
Yeah, I always took the 10,000+ years to be more made up to make themselves sound more important, and there are real life examples. Many Mesopotamian rulers claimed to have lived and ruled for 100′s of years, and their list of rulers is one big mythological mess at times. So that’s how I took the Starks’ long rule to be.
As for being descended from Bran the Builder, on that time scale, I think everyone in the north and possibly everyone in the south, is descended from him by now, probably more than once. To also use a real life comparison, I kept finding King John popping up in my family tree like 50 times, both through his legitimate children and numerous bastards. Everyone who is British is probably descended from him at least 100 times over, and other Europeans to lesser extent, and probably some Asians and Africans too. And he was only 800 years ago. (Charlemagne and Ghengis Khan are also two more examples of people practically everyone is descended from)
I can’t remember how many years ago Bran the Builder was, but if he was a king, had a bunch of kids, well the king’s kids are more likely to survive and be more reproductive than Jane the Farmer’s kids. So I think it’s safe to say that the modern Starks are his decedents, as are the Karstarks, and the Mormonts, and Boltons, and everyone else, even the peasants. It’s a matter of timescale and math.
Though the last name not changing, that’s unusual. I’m only mostly familiar with British monarchs, and through various wars and lines dying out, they swap names several times whenever it goes through the female side (eg Tudor to Stewart), but genetically they are all from the same descendent, from William the Conqueror and even the pre-William British royal lines were melded into his some generations after his death. Well, line isn’t so much the word for it. More like random walk. But perhaps every time Stark went through the female line, the new ruler just changed his (or maybe her? There *has* to be at least one female King of the North over all those years!) name back to Stark. That’s the only possible reason, because if you look at European history, over 1500+ years the royal houses change names.
The height of the wall never bothered me so much, I assumed ancient magic. It’s that the Wildlings could reach that high. *That’s* unrealistic. As far as I’m concerned, the only thing that could seriously challenge the wall is another ancient magic, or giants perhaps. Or… Hodor!
clemintineQuote Reply
OT: GRRM posted a new entry on Not aBlog, saying that he’s now unoficially on Twitter and Facebook through Ran of Westeros (think I’ve seen that news posted here already), and also saying he’s still writing on Dance. GRRM still writing on Dance?? Now that’s big news! ;-)
Aw, it’s getting difficult again, too long no news from HBO. Not doing drugs I never thought to ever experience a cold turkey, but whenever there’s no GoT related news for more than 2 days…
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
Always figured the wall was high because of the giant ice spiders.
Fat JonQuote Reply
I am bearer of bad news (kinda). Elyes Gabel (Rakkaro in GOT) has been cast to play a regular part in FOX’s pilot “Exit Strategy”. If the pilot gets the greenlight and goes to series (and I think its a very real possibility since Ethan Hawke is the lead and has an interesting premise) the parto of Rakkaro may have to be recast (that is if we get a second season). Here’s the news:
http://www.deadline.com/2011/02/tv-castings-roundup-slew-of-actors-book-pilots/
Cristian Far ArnedoQuote Reply
Cristian Far Arnedo,
Thanks for sharing this bit of news Christian. I’ve never seen Elyes Gabel acting, but being cast for a role in a series nexto Ethan Hawke must mean that he has potential, and look-wise he’d definitely be a loss… I don’t want his new project to fail, but hopefully he can stay with GoT! (if I had to choose between HBO or FOX, it would be a no-brainer, I’d choose quality…)
Tar KidhoQuote Reply
Okay, I need new GoT news now. I love you WiC, but everytime I see the same post as last time, I cuss out the Mother a little. (And the Maiden, because she’s not as sweet & innocent as she pretends to be ;) Man, this feels like a long wait…
To kill time, I suppose I will have to mentally revisit the Westeros themepark again, complete with it’s full-size 700ft Wall. It’s just the right height when used for it’s long-forgotten, original purpose – basejumping!
Fat Jon : I think the giant spiders escaped from the Harry Potter and/or LotR themepark. S’okay, as long as the Jurassic Park exhibits stay where they freakin’ belong.
~reedgirl
Franny BeeQuote Reply
Sorry if already posted:
Here’s a video of some guy opening the HBO promo-package (got it from Martin’s twitter):
LINK.
Enjoy!!!
TastesLikeTheSeaQuote Reply
Cristian Far Arnedo,
Richard Madden has also been cast in a new series. But I dont’t think that would affect filming for season 2, though.
LisaQuote Reply
Lisa,
Er, okay, that link didn’t work. http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/news/a303247/channel-4-announces-naked-apes.html
LisaQuote Reply
Cristian Far Arnedo,
2 things:
1) I’m sure that the actors who were cast had to sign contracts that tied them to multiple seasons.
2) It’s not hard to have a recurring role in multiple series at once. I’m sure they an squeeze him in. Besides Rahkaro/Jhogo likely won’t be in every episode even in S2.
userjQuote Reply
TastesLikeTheSea,
That was pretty cool!
LiesieQuote Reply
Tar Kidho,
Does he have a verified twitter account? I hate getting fooled by the fake ones and I try to limit who I follow so I can reasonably keep up with it all.. (That being said, if anyone here thinks they have a worthwhile twitter account let me know! :) )
purplejillyQuote Reply
While the comments are quite positive…”time to grow” is not really that positive. With today’s audiennces notoriously short attentions span and attention deficit disorder, “time to grow” is not a luxury a show like this will have. “Game Of Thrones” will have to quickly draw-in and maintain audiences, especially those who have not read the books, in order to justify the whole cost involved as well as insure a long life-span, past one season!
If not (I really hope not!), the show could suffer the same fate as “Carnivale”, a wonderfully layered and complex show, that at the time of its airing was quite unlike anything on the small screen! However HBO and the creators of that show overestimated the intelligence levels of the available audiences outhere who hover between a “One Flew Over the Coocoo’s Nest” lobotomized Jakc Nicholson and Snooki! That would be a worse-case-scenario! A best case scenario then would be “The Wire” mode…critically lauded show, with a fiercely loyal but small following, largely ingnored by the mainstream (witness the lack of awards and even nominations which accompanied one of the best TV shows ever made).
Obviously, I want “Game Of Thrones” to escape both of those hypotheticals and be extremely successful both critically and commercially, but in light of the fact that “Jersey Shore” is what passes for elaborate programming these days, there is always that nagging doubt. Hey if “Game Of Thrones” can match “Jersey Shore” in the number of farts, turds, T-Shirt Time, MVP and all of that other stuff than its odds would improve! I mean if Sean Bean can double as “The Situation”, and Peter Dinklage as Snooki…I am certain HBO would have a viable hit on its hands and we would be assured a full-run for the show! Hell, “Jersey Shore” is filming its fourth season in Italy no less! Wouldn’t it be nice if years down the line we could say that “Game Of Thrones” (or whatever the show would be called later) is shooting its seventh season! Nice…
Now, we definitely need a J-woww…if only we could find some daft bimbo with fake boobs…
loco73Quote Reply
loco73,
You’re so bored you have to troll?
Steve ReynoldsQuote Reply
Steve Reynolds,
Trollers gotta troll.
ChrisQuote Reply
Steve Reynolds
Well its either that, or masturbating to some “Girls Gone Wild” adds on Spike TV. Trying to keep some shred of my already shrinking dignity, I choose this.
loco73Quote Reply
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