D&D more ruthless than GRRM

My money is on Renly.

Yeah, 99% sure it’s Rast.

Spoilers people!

Although I guess this entire post is about spoilers.

Has anyone thought they would do something nuts like take out… SPOILER

Robb or Catelyn early… That would be crazy right??

Will Perkins,

Doesn’t Renly die in the second book?

I think we’d all like it to be Rast, but I’m thinking it’s someone a little more important with the whole condensing season 3 comment. My guess is Rickard Karstark. Who is going to probably be slain by Jaime in the whispering woods. Therefore when Cat releases him (Jaime) in the third season the whole Karstark house will just leave and go looking for him and foresake Robb. Do I like this scenario? No. I would definately miss Robb having to execute him but I can see this happening to condense the story a bit.

It can’t be Beric can it? How are we going to get undead Cat without Beric? IMO he’s essential to the story so I just can’t see him getting killed of so early.
Also he does not feature much in the first book, and his storyline is quite small but his role is a very important one.

Missentity,
wildlings during the wall battle

Robb. Why are these posts blacked out? Are some spoilers okay and others aren’t?

Off Topic: I heard a bit on National Public Radio this morning about Game of Thrones. Quick summary: They introduced it as “Sopranos in Middle Earth”, had a sound bite from Dave and Martin (both I’d heard before), and commented that “The field is ripe for an epic fantasy TV series”. They also predicted that what HBO is hoping to do with this series is pull in a new crowd of subscribers: The fantasy crowd (also referred to as geeks)

There was a bit more to it, but that summary covers most of it. Not terribly interesting, but still fun to hear about it on the radio this morning. Probably reached a few more people who hadn’t heard about it before.

its, without a doubt, Hoster Tully

Martin,

Impossible, he is still alive!

Okay, well, it’s not Theon, because Theon is still alive. He’s got a POV in ADwD.

I have this sinking feeling in my gut that it’s gonna be Tywin. I really hope I’m wrong, but with GRRM saying the character has an important role to play in Book 3, I really doubt he’s talking about Rast or Rickard Karstark, not to mention if Beric’s death is shown, it doesn’t really matter, because he can be brought back.

Very, very concerned now. I just have this sinking feeling that it’s either Rob, Jeor, Joffrey or, horror of horrors, Tywin.

Clambake,

no, ALL spoilers are non-okay. Again two megaspoilers in the comments that aren’t blacked out… People need to realize that a lot of people here haven’t read the third book yet.

I can’t see through the spoiler boxes on my iPhone and it’s DRIVING ME CRAZY

How does this relate to Dungeons & Dragons? I’m don’t see any connection to or mention of D&D.

Josh Parker,

I kind of doubt any of those would be offed in season one, there is too much story to be cut with any one of them and the ramifications would be emense and it wouldn’t be the same story. D&D are smarter than that.

It’s been a while since my last read– when is Gregor supposed to die/undeadify?

And D&D isn’t Dungeons and Dragons– it’s the writers of the show.

What about Gregor? I know technically he doesn’t die until book 4, but he never makes an appearance in it.

What about Gregor? I know technically he doesn’t die until book 4, but he never makes an appearance in it.

I really hope all of you are right.

No, Rast has no part in the killing of the Old Bear. That’s all on Garth of Greenaway, Ollo Lophand and Dirk. Rast isn’t even mentioned in that scene.

Dom: although I can’t see how that could trim the storyline in ASOS

Where has it been said that the death was brought forward for that reason?

If it is Rast and if he dies where I said then the reason is because he replaces the named character who dies in the book (but is not in the show), nothing to do with trimming the story in book 3.

So they want Martin to write the Battle of the Blackwater, eh? We’re talking about the biggest battle in Book 2 here, right? And a scriptwriter who’s middle initials R.R. stand for “unfilmable script”. I wonder how many drafts he’ll have to go through before it gets approved.

I can already hear D&D saying, “No, no, no, George, we have a budget, you know. This thing is great, but it would cost more than the Lord of the Rings trilogy did. You have to cut this and this and this and that one’s gotta go, too. Sorry!”

Hey, I’d love to see Martin’s script for that episode on my telly, I just don’t think HBO is going to give them an extra $300m just for one episode, though.

Ran later confirmed it was much more minor than he originally thought, and that we can rule out people like Beric, Hoster and Karstark. It is almost certainly Rast.

jwsnasa,

The problem with that is that he’s not in this season. I suppose it’s perfectly reasonable to have a messenger come to Catelyn and tell her that he died, but the way this is phrased makes me think it will be an onscreen death, or the death of someone we have seen in person.

Sorry guys, its Hooster Tully. He dies in season 2, but if its moved up to season 1, all that story line, including Tansy can easily be moved into season 1 without a hitch. Then, Season 2 can cram more stuff, including the beginning of ASOS, just as season 1 will encompass some things that actually occur in ACOK. The result is that Season 3, which can actually drag a bit in the middle, will start about 1/4 the way thru ASOS, resulting in a seemly quicker pace and the possibility that the whole Season 3 can be filmed in 10 or 12 episodes.

Dom: Ran says the character we’re talking about is “VERY minor”.

Okay. I guess the riddle is who’s (1) male, (2) dies in third book, (3) is VERY minor, and (4) will greatly reduce the size of SoS if killed in the first book? (Or be part of a reduction?)

I can risk an argument that, in the whole scheme of things, Beric is very minor. If it’s some guy that’s only mentioned once or twice why would anyone be talking about it? He’s not a POV character. He only appears in 4 chapters in GoT ( Eddard VI, Sansa II, Eddard XI, and Sansa III).

If we can take what GRRM says at face value then Rast is too minor. Marillion is an interesting and plausible choice, since anyone can be fingered for the murder of Lysa but for my mind Beric is the most logical of all – he’s a very minor character who does one major thing and I see no reason why his role couldn’t be merged with Thoros.

Big news

Almost there!

Okay, if we’re back to him being minor, then we’re pretty much back to Rast.

If it is Hoster, sorry, Cajunman, but it will be an offscreen death and we’ll never meet him. It’s been established by GRRM and D&D that other than Catelyn or Lysa, we get no Tullys this season. No, not even the Blackfish. And especially not Hoster.

new to commenting here…I also have the sinking feeling it will be Tywin, and here’s why:
(1) he’s a significant enough character that it’s worth GRRM noting his early termination (since he does die in book 3, unlike Renly)
(2) unlike Rast or some others that were mentioned, he actually has a role to play in book 3 and all the other books such that killing him earlier could allow condensing of the third season
(3) while his role in book 3 (and thus season 3) is relatively important (someone has to plan the Red Wedding and bring all the players together to pull it off, make the right deals etc.), quite frankly, I could see them giving that role to another character whose continued existence is VITAL for other reasons than to provide the menacing calculating opposition to Robb Stark…for instance, I could see them allowing Walder Frey to take Tywin’s role as chief orchestrator of the Red Wedding, or give the role to Cersei (not Jaime or Tyrion, since the former would lack credibility to come up with that sort of thing and his captivity makes it impossible, and it would ruin the portrayal and development of Tyrion’s character to have him plan the deed)

That said, the main reason I believe it might be Tywin is that I could see various parts of his role being just as easily divided between and carried by Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime, Lord Frey, etc. I don’t know really how much screen time this would save, plus there’s the problem of Tyrion’s development through the killing of his father at the end, and if they have him kill Tywin earlier, what then, etc.

I just feel it’s gotta be someone relatively significant, else it would make no difference in condensing the series…

Hoster Tully kicking it earlier might save us a few scenes too…I don’t see how Jeor can die early without complicating Jon’s rise to commander…Joffrey is a maybe…I suppose they could’ve decided that one season of his incompetence and cruelty is sufficient and it’s ongoing presence in the second and third could be as easily replaced by Cersei ruling in a similarly incompetent manner…Joff exists merely to torture Sansa for the most part and lives only slightly longer than the other contestants for the Iron Throne, partly, I think, to spite our fantasy notions of cosmic justice…cutting him early would, like Tywin, give Cersei the opportunity for a bigger role, and she can easily swallow it I think…Again, there would be the problem of explaining Tyrion’s departure without him being accused of the deed…though, if tywin or joff are the ones, he could always flee because he’s accused of the murder of the other, so long as only one of them is the one cut early

Everybody suggesting Marillion, I already got schooled in that one. He doesn’t die in book 3. He is merely framed, jailed, and in book four a confession is forced out of him.

mummer,

Then what in seven hells does this mean:

According to GRRM, a character is killed in this 1st season of the series who does not die until the 3rd novel. Because of spoilers, he chose not to discuss it further (I tried!), but he did indicate it was a male character.

Benioff and Weiss deliberately made the change, which has interesting implications all of its own… such as already looking to find ways to trim down a potential third season by closing out or greatly compressing elements of A Storm of Swords.

Why, if he is VERY minor, would it spoil anything to reveal him now?

Why would D&D be “more ruthless than GRRM” if its a pure nobody.

And why would we be taking about it?

Why, mummer, WHY?!

new to commenting here…I also have the sinking feeling it will be Tywin, and here’s why:
(1) he’s a significant enough character that it’s worth GRRM noting his early termination (since he does die in book 3, unlike Renly)
(2) unlike Rast or some others that were mentioned, he actually has a role to play in book 3 and all the other books such that killing him earlier could allow condensing of the third season
(3) while his role in book 3 (and thus season 3) is relatively important (someone has to plan the Red Wedding and bring all the players together to pull it off, make the right deals etc.), quite frankly, I could see them giving that role to another character whose continued existence is VITAL for other reasons than to provide the menacing calculating opposition to Robb Stark…for instance, I could see them allowing Walder Frey to take Tywin’s role as chief orchestrator of the Red Wedding, or give the role to Cersei (not Jaime or Tyrion, since the former would lack credibility to come up with that sort of thing and his captivity makes it impossible, and it would ruin the portrayal and development of Tyrion’s character to have him plan the deed)

That said, the main reason I believe it might be Tywin is that I could see various parts of his role being just as easily divided between and carried by Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime, Lord Frey, etc. I don’t know really how much screen time this would save, plus there’s the problem of Tyrion’s development through the killing of his father at the end, and if they have him kill Tywin earlier, what then, etc.

I just feel it’s gotta be someone relatively significant, else it would make no difference in condensing the series…

Hoster Tully kicking it earlier might save us a few scenes too…I don’t see how Jeor can die early without complicating Jon’s rise to commander…Joffrey is a maybe…I suppose they could’ve decided that one season of his incompetence and cruelty is sufficient and it’s ongoing presence in the second and third could be as easily replaced by Cersei ruling in a similarly incompetent manner…Joff exists merely to torture Sansa for the most part and lives only slightly longer than the other contestants for the Iron Throne, partly, I think, to spite our fantasy notions of cosmic justice…cutting him early would, as with Tywin, give Cersei the opportunity for a bigger role, and she can easily swallow it I think…Again, there would be the problem of explaining Tyrion’s departure without him being accused of the deed…though, if tywin or joff are the ones, he could always flee because he’s accused of the murder of the other, so long as only one of them is the one cut early

I’m going with Hoster Tully, 100%. An early death for Rast won’t compress Season 3 any, and to be frank Rast is unimportant enough that they could just write him out or make him “that nameless guy who doesn’t like Jon.” On the other hand, Hoster Tully doesn’t really do anything except mumble and die. We get saved a lot of tedious scenes with Catelyn at his deathbed. It changes the plot not a whit to have had Edmure as de jure Lord of Riverrun as well as de facto.

Plus, it also allows them to cut the Blackfish from Season 1, since he wouldn’t be at the Eyrie, he’d be back in Riverrun. So it’s really practical.

of the characters discussed, the ones that make the most sense to me: Rickard Karstark and Rast. if they kill off Tywin in the first season, then Tyrion doesn’t get his penultimate moment at the end of Storm. it cannot be Tywin

Lossoth,

that would be horrendous. Edmure & the Blackfish cannot in any way be combined into one character

Notmy Realname,

Also, killing off Beric limits their options somewhat. They haven’t plotted out Season 3 yet. They might get feedback and want to go one way or another–depending on fan reaction they might really want to emphasize the BwB. They might plot it out and realize that they really need the BwB or else everything else falls down. The point is that they don’t know yet, and if they want to get around the BwB, they can do it later. Whereas if Hoster Tully is alive while Catelyn is in Riverrun, we’re going to be seeing a lot of “Tansy…”. And it’s pretty skippable.

Okay. Now that we have some more infor, I highly doubt its someone as unimportant as Rast. Unfortunately I think this news makes it more likely that my previous speculation of Beric becomes stronger. Think about it. There is nothing Beric does in the script short of makin Jeyne Poole drool that Thoros cannot do. He has a flamig sword. He can breathe life into Cat down the line.Also. with the prominence of R”hllor in the third season, Thoros akes more sense to keep if you need to cut one of the two. I’d love a Thoros/Melisandre confrntation in a later book as well. If this turns out to be true, its sad news, but I understand. There are just too many characters as the story goes on to keep things as diverse as they are in the book. In fact, if the have to start making extracutions or outright cuts to the story, this is probably a pretty good place to make a move. Other BwoBs might be extracuted as well. Look for a guy with a bow and another guy wearing a yellow cloak in the background. D&D if you do go this route, I only ask that your please, please please keep Tom Sevenstrings around.

It’s Lord Karstark.

And it makes perfect sense to throw that into Robb’s becoming King arc. It’s the gloomy flipside to his KING IN THE NORTH triumph, and the sting in the tail of the Whispering Wood.

There are some hilarious and illogical suggestions going on in this thread though. A few characters discussed that aren’t even dead, some that couldn’t possibly be killed off. Honestly, Tywin? The chief antagonist? You need to think these things through more before you post, guys.

Eeek.. I started reading the books a few months ago in anticipation of the TV-series (and absolutely fell in love with them), but I’m not even halfway through the third book yet and would hate for it to be spoiled by something that happens in the show!

Better start reading a lot faster! Who could it be?

*MUST STAY AWAY FROM SPOILERS!*

Tre Svatek,

“The main concern that I flagged David and Dan with was … what I call “the butterfly effect” … there are many minor characters that appear, and it looks as though, “OK, we can cut this character.” … But then in Book 3, that character has a huge role to play … I try to tell them about it. Sometimes they address it, sometimes not, in which case, two seasons from now, if we’re still on the air, we’ll see how they deal with that.”

He says basically its a minor character in book one, who blossoms into a (at least fairly) major character by book 3. That’s not (b)Rast(b). I guess speculation depends on your definitions of major and minor, but to me (b) Beriic(b) is the most likely person to fit that bill.

Notmy Realname: I’m going with Hoster Tully, 100%

I believe he’s a contender. He fits all the elements. But I can’t be 100% on anyone.

Rob: I also have the sinking feeling it will be Tywin

The thing about Tywin is killing him early would change the story too much. His actual death is a watershed moment. It influences everything that follows. He’s the only real check on Cersei. Once he dies she’s pure unrestrained, unadulterated psychosis on parade. It’s great.

Mike Chair:

mummer,
Then what in seven hells does this mean:

Why, if he is VERY minor, would it spoil anything to reveal him now?

Why would D&D be “more ruthless than GRRM” if its a pure nobody.

And why would we be taking about it?

Why, mummer, WHY?!

I can’t even tell if you’re serious now, but in case you are:

1. Why would GRRM want to give away the death of even a minor character, when it’s a detail that even people who have read the book don’t know about? He’s never given out plot details like that from the show in any interview.

2. The “more ruthless” bit was a headline written by Hear Me Roar, who has no special knowledge about this and (I think) may have misread the quoted articles.

3. If you don’t know why you’re talking about it, I can’t help you with that.

Look, again, the thing you quoted about compressing the third season was written by Ran as speculation– it’s not a quote or summary of anything that GRRM or anyone on the show said. And the same guy, Ran, later followed up to say that it was definitely a minor character (which he had not known when he wrote the first part), and that he hadn’t meant to imply any of the stuff you’re getting excited about. And Ran was the only source for this in the first place, so if you’re not willing to accept his explanation, then… I don’t know, have fun, I guess.

It’s funny how I wrote that Ran has confirmed it to be a “very minor character” very early in the thread (and it’s been repeated by a few others) and people keep speculating about really important ones, even those that don’t actually die in the third book.

Read the thread before speculating, and do the research on when people die. ;)

Ran wrote: MINOR character. I don’t even think Hoster fits how minor the character in fact is. But I can’t say much more, beyond the fact that no, I do not actually know who it is. I just know he’s VERY minor.

Soooo its probably Rast

purplejilly,

Except he lives. That isn’t even a spoiler. His “death” at the conclusion of Book TWO (not three), is left ambiguous, which is a sure sign he didn’t really die.

It
is
Lord
Rickard
Karstark
executed
by
Robb.

Mike Chair:
jwsnasa,

Like I said, I’m no more than 65% on … him (my spoiler button disappeared).

They’re talking about trimming the story down.He isn’t crucial enough to ruin the thing if he’s offed early.That’s all I’m saying.He’s got to be important enough to be an issue but not so important to derail the storyline (plus the other elements of the riddle).

But there is one problem here. The few scenes he’s in is very important to Aryas development. They can maybe cut Beric, but they can’t cut most of his scenes becasue it’s essential that Arya gets captured and brought to him so that she can be kidnapped by the hound. He is also essential to the story because his death brings Cat back to life.

I would argue that allthough Beric does not appear much in the books and thats why we call him a minor character he is really a major character because his presence is so important to the story.

This is good, this is very good, this is just what I needed to distract me these last few days ;(whew) a good MURDERGATE!
Who is it?
Whodunit?
Why?
We have our clues. We have the exhaustive and overwhelming brain power of House Gatewatch. The thread is exploding already.. Thank you GRRM! This will tide me over until Sunday, and already the Stockholm-Syndrome Gate is fading from my forethoughts . . .

mummer: OK, I get it– you’re not serious about this, nothing I say matters, you’re just enjoying stirring up a commotion. Well like I said, have fun, but I kind of wish everyone else wasn’t taking the bait

Your premise challenges the integrity of this post. You claim that it can’t be certain people because the character must be VERY minor. My point is simple. If he is SO minor then why is it an issue at all? If you claim that it shouldn’t be an issue then the fault must lie with Hear Me Roar for putting it up here. WiC.net does not have history of putting up frivolous posts. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. They have the right to defend themselves. I have the right to Always Support the Bottom!

Well, it looks like we have another GATE!
Deathgate!Deathgate!Deathgate!Deathgate!

Incidentally, since were taling extracution here. What if D&D combined Beric with Ser Hugh? Beric, the dashing knight at the tourney, gets killed by the Mountain Other than that, I’d love to see a Gregor/Beric throwdown after Ned sends men out to get the Mountain

Team Sansa:
What about this as a theory: Could the Karstark betrayal/death happen early in order to establish Robb as a fair and just Lord, tying him to the viewers as Eddard’s son in spirit and action and show that he is willing to make tough decisions.This would set up the KotN quite well.

Welcome, Team Sansa! I thought so too. If it happens in the last ep, it would bracket the season nicely between two you-know-whats.

Team Sansa:
One last thing: I’m a first time poster and have finally gotten the courage to comment, so this might have already been discussed in other forums, but the “butterfly effect” that GRRM refers to could really get sticky if HBO does the whole series.For example, combining Blackfish with Edmure would be horrible – I think that Brynden’s role could be huge in subsequent books.Notice how terrified Jaime is that he’s on the loose at the end of aFFC?I’m still steaming that Blackfish isn’t in this season.I hope GRRM sticks to his guns and continues writing the books without the TV show in mind.Let D&D figure out how to make these decisions later.

Are we twins separated at birth? :D There must be a good reason for the Blackfish’s escape in AFFC.

Notmy Realname:
On the other hand, Hoster Tully doesn’t really do anything except mumble and die. We get saved a lot of tedious scenes with Catelyn at his deathbed. It changes the plot not a whit to have had Edmure as de jure Lord of Riverrun as well as de facto.

Plus, it also allows them to cut the Blackfish from Season 1, since he wouldn’t be at the Eyrie, he’d be back in Riverrun. So it’s really practical.

(sorry, I changed the spoilers because they just disappeared on me)
Agreed, this reason for the Blackfish not being at the Eyrie is a real Ockham’s Razor. Although I’d miss the funeral boat, one of the best Blackfish scenes.

Bottom line: Karstark or – less convinced – Hoster (Cat could get a raven about his death, but then why even mention him? just to make her suffer more? then again, GRRM did mention him in the Minor Houses promo) for me.

Tywin’s Bastard,
I think ‘minor’ character depends on people’s viewpoints, when wild speculation is running rampant as it is right now : )

Anyone who clicks on the comments about a post SPECULATING on who might be killed on a show that hasn’t even premiered (meaning only people who read the books would know the characters anyway) knows that there will be spoilers.

Let’s not be too silly, please.

This is an awesome thread. Reading through all these just reminded me how epic GOT really is. My money is on Tully. Catelyn spends too much time with him and it drags on.

Notmy Realname,

I see what you’re saying, but I think the potential gain in terms of freeing up screen time down the line would be outweighed by the loss of those extremely personal moments between Cat and her father, and of course Edmure as well. They will want to keep as many of these types of relatable, powerful family moments as possible.

youandwhosearmy,

Mmm…you do have a point. It could work if they trim it down a bit. Again, if the premise is that a minor character dies earlier, my money’s still on him. I’d have to re-read to see what the deal would be with Karstark, though.

..Robb…. ??

Lord Ned’s Head: Incidentally, since were taling extracution here. What if D&D combined Beric with Ser Hugh? Beric, the dashing knight at the tourney, gets killed by the Mountain Other than that, I’d love to see a Gregor/Beric throwdown after Ned sends men out to get the Mountain

How are they going to combine 2 Characters that have 2 different actors playing them?

What are they going to do combine the two actors using a faulty Teleport Device?

Funny thought. If it is indeed Beric who dies in S1, then its still possible, by the nature of his character, that he could return depending on the method of his death. Maybe D&D wanted to show a death in S1 in oreder to make his return all the more shocking?

Mormegil: How are they going to combine 2 Characters that have 2 different actors playing them?
What are they going to do combine the two actors using a faulty Teleport Device?

OMG OMG OMG OMG I think you just discovered the real reason that Robb was seen with a wolf’s head after the Red Wedding. He’s not dead!! He just had a teleportation accident, and now he’s hiding in a basement, saying “Help me… please help me“…

mummer,

*golf clap*

Well played!

Something to consider, is this really the type of conversation that Winter himself would stay out of? I think not…

Does it change our speculation if we extrapolate from this fact that the character likely dies in the first six episodes, becuase WIC knows who it is, and that he cant say for release reasons?

It makes Rast more likely, Hoster Tully or Tywin less.

Guybrush Threepwood,
Winter just posted a minute ago and said he didn’t know who the character was. And if it’s Rast, I think the wight attack may not be happening till episode 7 anyway.

Beric Dondarrion – my first thought as well.

I thought the “Tasy” stuff is kind of important when it’s revealed that Hoster made Lysa abort Littlefinger’s baby. Sure you could cut that stuff down because a lot of the book was inner monologue by Cat. Dontos doesn’t show up till Joff’s tourney I thought. So that kind of rules him out doesn’t it?

The Tansy stuff might be hugely important later on… but I digress

Lina,

I think it’s Balon, it could be a good reason for Theon to leave at the end of season 1, and then it would shorten the following seasons, since Theon would not have to deal with Balon. HBO may play it out that Theon is the new Lord Reaper and the iron islands may call a moot after Theon’s “death”, and Crow’s Eye would appear then.

Can’t be Beric. Why would D&D even introduce the character as a featured extra only to immediately kill him off. Would be really sloppy story telling.

Same with Karstark, why introduce him and then immediately kill him?

Don’t buy Tywin either. Too central to the story. I keep hearing D&D talking about not wanting to vandalize George’s story and killing Tywin early would definitely do that.

Gotta agree with a lot of the above posters that it is

Rast or Hoster

.

George doesn’t say that its a character that appears on screen in Season 1, only that he’s killed in Season 1.

Hoster

would cut down on an awful lot of time for Season 3 if condensing is their goal. Would also not have a lot of impact on the story at large.

I think the key here is to look at the cut from a writing standpoint. What effect does killing this character early have on our primary characters?

Hoster

plays into a lot of Catelyn’s sadness, but she’s got plenty of that between

Ned and Bran/Rickon.

I just don’t think most of these suggestions are “big” enough to merit an announcement like this—it has to be a marquee player. Most of these characters won’t have been identified, much less missed, by the viewing public in S1.

DH87,

It doesn’t really seem like it was an “announcement” to me. It seems more like GRRM was just cautiously talking about upcoming likely alterations as he’s done numerous times recently and gave the death of the character as an example.

A-a-ar-gh ! My spoiler tag didn’t take , the edit button didn’t give me th option of adding them ,and I forget how to do it with the keypad..help…

Whaddaya know. Spoiler button was down again, but I worked it out manually. Youcan teach an old aurochs new tricks!

Lord Ned's Head: It doesn’t really seem like it was an “announcement” to me.

Perhaps you’re right. My scenario would have two major players going down in flames in E10 (the known fatality deserves an Emmy simply for giving 100 interviews and never telegraphing, by even a lifted eyebrow, his demise).

purplejilly: Okay, after sneakily googling ’round the Internets, I find that from IMDB – Charles Dance (Tywin) is listed as appearing in the 9th and 10th episode – so probably Tywin is NOT the mystery murder victim.

PJ, you’re a genius! Can we reverse engineer from imdb to see who has fewer episodes than they should? Probably not. It’s not that up-to-date. They’ve got Kit and Maisie in 2 episodes each.

obsidian,

Spoiler tags are written <b> text </b>

Mike Chair,

Probably not entirely easy to reverse engineer that seeing how the fact remains (despite people’s strong efforts to ignore it) that the exact and completely unaltered quote from Ran about the character is ” it’s a VERY minor character”.

Who Is Jacopo Belbo?:
okay first of all the interview where GRRM talks about discussing the “butterfly effect” with D&D is from JANUARY.and his quote is him speaking HYPOTHETICALLY …as in i warned them they can’t just axe somebody they think is unimportant because down the line they may end up being important.the “somebody dies in the first season who doesn’t die in the book” is a completely unrelated conversation from just this week.it is NOT connected in anyway to an interview back in January so we cannot assume that this pre-mature death falls under such a “butterfly” effect.not to mention multiple people have posted that GRRM confirmed it is a MINOR character … as in not somebody who becomes important either.

and further i have to just say anybody who suggested Tywin is just smoking crack or taking the piss.Charles Dance is one of the major actors the show landed and considering they will be losing Sean Bean they are going to need somebody with Dance’s gravitas for season 2.not to mention from a character standpoint Tywin is sort of the replacement for Ned in terms of the role they fill in the power vacuum surrounding the throne.their motivations are different, Tywin wants to stabilize the realm and keep it safe and Ned wants to keep Robert safe.but essentially they are two men cut from the same cloth and when the books lose Ned it is then that Tywin steps in to take a larger role, filling in the space left empty and representing the “solid past” and “serious westeros lord with power” faction.

basically up until he dies Ned is the character many think “well why didn’t he become King he’d be a hell of a lot better than Robert” and after he is gone that role of “sheesh things would be much better with this guy in charge” guy moves over to Tywin.

and if you think about it the two aren’t that different in many ways, serious, hard, powerful and competent men.of course the major difference is one clings to his “honour” like some paper armour and the other knows that “honour” doesn’t keep you safe at night or hold a realm together and that sometimes, somebody has to step up and do what is necessary even if that might be cruel or savage. Tywin is like Ned without any delusions about the world being a fair and honourable place (is it any wonder Sansa grew up as idealistic and naive as she did?) and willing to get his hands dirty when neccessary to achieve greater good/goals.

Ha! What a load of horse manure. Tywin is the series adolf hitler not someone who cares about stabilizing the realm! Stabilizing the realm?
By mass murder, rape, torture and war?
He weakened the realm completely just as the Winter started coming, not to mention something else!

He cares not one bit about the “realm” but only for his power and Lannisters getting the throne. He sees nothing beyond it.
No delusions eh?

Whatever he did backfired or will backfire in the near future and we all know how this uber mensch ended, dont we?

Did his cruelty help at the end? Was it a better armor than Eddards honor?
Did it make him shit gold? What did he achieve when he ordered Tysha raped, then convinced Tyrion she was only a whore playing him and even made him do it?

And i do like him as a character, you know?

But boy do some people miss things. just wow!

Tywin’s Bastard: it’s a VERY minor character

Ah, but the rub is the very minor character’s early demise will/might/can have a “butterfly effect” on the series. True, he may not even be listed on imdb. Hmm. Who’s not listed on imdb and fits the profile? Hoster and Beric to name two. Interesting. Veeeery interesting. *stroking nonexistent goatee*

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/fullcredits#cast

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/13/watch-5-new-game-of-thrones-clips-video/

five new clips….this show is gonna be crazy

one question tho…where is tyrion’s flip?

What about Greatjon Umber?
He dies in 3rd book, is a male, and is not so minor that his death doesn’t change anything. There is also a good place for him to die, When he draws a sword against Robb and Greywind attacks him, he could die. Though, it would ruin one of the best Robb’s quotes “My father taught me that drawing sword against your liege lord is punishable by death, but I am sure you only meant to cut my meat”

Grujah: What about Greatjon Umber?He dies in 3rd book, is a male, and is not so minor that his death doesn’t change anything. There is also a good place for him to die, When he draws a sword against Robb and Greywind attacks him, he could die. Though, it would ruin one of the best Robb’s quotes “My father taught me that drawing sword against your liege lord is punishable by death, but I am sure you only meant to cut my meat”

No He doesn’t. He’s alive and Well (well alive anyway).

His Son dies in ASOS he’s imprisoned by the Freys.

Kill them all. Bugger Beric and the Brothers without Banners, heave Hoster, rack off with Rast. The BwB can be a rumour til we need to see them after the wedding, shortening scenes of Aryas journey. Hoster can die off screen relieving us of his deathbed boredom. This would save a reasonable chunk of scenes at the expense of flavour, but then that flavour of destruction and despair could be explored with Brienne later when she’s on Jaime’s quest. I’m not saying there is no BwB, but it could be quite effective to have a wild and half mad Thoros and a few other nameless brothers find the aftermath of the wedding. Let’s face it, they won’t fit everything in, so ask yourself what are you prepared to lose. Oh, and while I’m at it, Craster. Find another way to have a wetnurse and other bub. Save the screentime, save the show.

Could WinterIsComing please edit this thred? I have thankfully read all the books, but this whole thread is FULL of huge, untagged spoilers. What is the problem everyone? Does there need to be a tutorial about spoiler tags? if you can’t figure out how to use them, DON’T post spoilers.

Tywin’s Bastard: I think that someone that has a Butterfly effect wouldn’t be called a very minor character with caps

I see your point. Perhaps we should redefine the “butterfly effect” element, which is only a concern of GRRM. I give the concern credence in our analysis because I ask, why cut the character early but to save space later? Perhaps we should retool the element so, rather than the character causing a ripple effect to trim the story, he is simply part of a planned pruning that may or may not have a “butterfly effect.”

Under this analysis we should also consider who appears early in the first book as a minor character that is part of an expendable group later.

I think it is also valid to consider who is involved in all scenes of violence early in the first book under the hypothesis that D&D simply used an existing scene to dispense with the chap.

Mormegil,

Thanks for that!

It’ll be interesting to see how the books and show line up on that score. I’m sure there will be more than one difference.

I knew it was going to turn out like this… It’s gonna be the watchmen movie all over again, someone who’s just skimmed the books and armed with nothing but a material grasp of the story (grasping none of the complexities) is going to piss all over the story, and we’re going to get to hear how great it is for the next few months…

(If it’s Roose Bolton they kill off I’m going on protest :P)

Dragons in Dungeons may or may not be found here

My current bet is that they are going to off with Grey Wind on S1. This will easy on the CGI costs in later seasons, and Grey Wind is not as important as Ghost, for example. And it is male, after all