Here is a real quick Quick Hits post, mostly for general discussion:
- George R. R. Martin is named to TIME Magazine’s Top 100 Most Influential People list. Book fan and comedian John Hodgman writes up an essay on GRRM.
- The issue of racism in Game of Thrones has become a bit of a talking point recently. Slate and National Review chime in on the topic.
- A good interview with David Benioff and Dan Weiss over at Screen Junkies. Some slight small spoilers for those who haven’t read past the first book.
- George R. R. Martin was interviewed by Empire magazine. Lots of stuff we already have heard, but overall a good read with a few new tidbits of info.
Loading ...
72 Comments
what does “racism” mean? do they refer to the dothraki being barbarian o what?
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
I don’t think Martin or the producer of the series (Dave and D.B.) are racist…but just in traditional fantasy stories there tends to be racial steotypes that are reinforced. The same goes for ASOIAF…I don’t think that Martin intended to raise a few eyebrows with Game of Thrones, and undoubtedly there are people of color in the series that are not savages like the dothraki (the folk from Dorne qualify) but it is something that NEEDS to be thought about. In a lot of fantasy stories, the people of color are barbaric; Why is that?
Other than the fact the most epic fantasy stories are written by white guys.
Julian WalkerQuote Reply
well, it’s a kind middle age setting. what did they expect?
i’ll never understand this, people can see racism *everywhere*
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
As has been said, the “whites” of westeros are just as barbaric……so who cares?
cardusQuote Reply
Would have been nice if they had cast a few black actors in some prominent roles. Yeah, people would have bitched that they didn’t match their descriptions from the books, but so what? You’d get used to it. Maybe the Lannisters and Starks and Targaryens would be hard to do that with because of potential bloodline issues down the road, but why not make a bold move and cast Varys as a black man? Or Illyrio, or Syrio Forel, Jorah Mormont, the Cleganes, or the Old Bear? Well, I suppose there’s room for it later with those across the sea, Dorne, etc., maybe Mance Rayder, Thoros, Melisandre, etc., but it sure does look like a very, very white world, I would have liked to see them mix it up just a little more. The contrast only makes the “barbaric” Dothraki look even like an more obviously racist concoction (I’m not saying Martin is racist, but it creates an opening for the perception of it).
Nigel TufnelQuote Reply
cardus
That is very true, the white of westeros are just as barbaric, but for the most part their behavior is apart of the norm. Dothrakis on the other hand, are viewed as abnormal because of their frequent raping and sexing underneath the sky and because of their other behaviors.
Elena Amici
I agree with you, sometimes people are ultra sensitive to small things, however so people know racism when its there, mainly people of color because they are still subjected to it.
Julian WalkerQuote Reply
Nigel Tufnel,
uh. because that would be f**king stupid. there are black characters in the books. they are the summer islanders. Xablar Xho and the strumpet that seduces Cersei and the crew of the ship that Sam takes to Oldtown.
and the Dornish are probably very similar to the Middle-East which means some arabic and some darker/black individuals can be cast there.
Who Is Jacopo Belbo?Quote Reply
Just a person color, I want to see at more fantasy series like Earthsea or Anansi Boys were people of color are just that…people. Not barbarians not noble savages, not exotic looking folk. Just people
I’d like to see something like the cast of “The Wire” or “Treme” but in a fantasy setting, not just a medival fantasy setting but any setting that is a product of the imagination. Another reason why so many fantasy series have a abundant amount of whites is that alot of folks think of fantasy as medieval. It doesn’t have to be medieval. We know the European Middle Ages were populated with whites, but fantasy does not have to be limited to that setting.
Julian WalkerQuote Reply
Good for grrm that he is in the top 100!! However,
Spoilers below:
Why do reviewers etc who have read the books always feel the need to mention things like “there aren’t any dragons, or at least at first there aren’t”. The last chapter is without a doubt in my top three moments of the whole series… Because it was a surprise and I didn’t read it in a review.
SeanQuote Reply
This is hilarious when you keep Martin’s personal politics in mind.
KuraudoQuote Reply
Would have been nice if they had cast a few black actors in some prominent roles. Yeah, people would have bitched that they didn’t match their descriptions from the books, but so what? You’d get used to it. Maybe the Lannisters and Starks and Targaryens would be hard to do that with because of potential bloodline issues down the road, but why not make a bold move and cast Varys as a black man? Or Illyrio, or Syrio Forel, Jorah Mormont, the Cleganes, or the Old Bear? Well, I suppose there’s room for it later with those across the sea, Dorne, etc., maybe Mance Rayder, Thoros, Melisandre, etc., but it sure does look like a very, very white world, I would have liked to see them mix it up just a little more. The contrast only makes the “barbaric” Dothraki look even like an more obviously racist concoction (I’m not saying Martin is racist, but it creates an opening for the perception of it).
I kinda disagree with this…if blacks or people of color (non Caucasians not just blacks) were cast in these roles, whites would try to use these roles as an example of defending whitewashing, as they did with the recent Akira movie casting and the Last Airbender
Julian WalkerQuote Reply
I’m pretty glad D&D didn’t go changing the show to make it more PC.
That one slippery-ass slope, y’all.
GaRQuote Reply
Allright I’ve gotta go cuz the libray is closing…but if we can keep this discussion going on tomorrow or possibly even Monday that would be cool.
Winter, is it too much to ask for a briefly written article about race and Game of Thrones? That way alot of people can participate in this discussion! :D
Julian WalkerQuote Reply
Nigel Tufnel,
But I do agree with your line of thinking!! Very well said friend!!!
Julian WalkerQuote Reply
I write fiction, and I once heard a literary agent say she was looking for the Black Lord of the Rings.
There is a great fantasy writer named David Anthony Durham. He happens to be black. His Acacia series kicks ass and he has been compared to Martin.
http://acaciatrilogy.blogspot.com/
HollyoakQuote Reply
From my own experience of years of political discussions on the Internet, I can safely say that most people who use big words like racism, fascism and such don’t know what they mean.
Considering GRRM’s political views, it’s stupid to even think that his works are intentionally racist. The whole discussion whether GoT is racist or not is a waste of time and bytes on the server …
P.S. Fuck the extreme political correctness of these days, pardon my French.
Alexander DubrovskyQuote Reply
And maybe they should make Robert a secret transvestite while we’re at it, so no minority feels left behind? Or we could all respect Martin’s vision and portray it as close as possible. After his great books it’s the least we/HBO could do. He did not choose to have any black Westerosi, thus we should respect it.
ImpQuote Reply
Question: am I wrong if I imagine the mountain clans as white? You know, them people slitting each others throats over a piece of saussage and feeding the cocks of their dead enimies to the goats.
If anyone in ASOIAF comes across as “primitive” to me it would have to be them.
Amused-to-DeathQuote Reply
Amused-to-Death,
That’s racist, yo. Not all white people feed people’s cocks to the goats.
GaRQuote Reply
Actually there are a few “people of color” in the books, as another informed forum member here pointed out: Jalabhar Xho, the Summer Islanders, the “working woman” who runs the brothel, Alleras, the Sphinx (an Acolyte), probably others too I can’t remember.
The Intertubes: Where everyone can type.
HollyoakQuote Reply
Yes there are but they are not Westerosi, with the exception of the Dornish who aren’t black as the Summer Islanders are.
ImpQuote Reply
By the way, this topic is discussed extensively over here . The larger part of what is written actually makes sense. People disagree, but they are civil – and I can see good points beeing made on both sides of the isle.
When I saw the scene I didn’t even consider the racial aspect of it. And even though I do consider this to be a topic worthy of debate, from my point of view the debate reminds me of this South Park episode .
Amused-to-DeathQuote Reply
I think the only reason this is really coming up is because we haven’t met the rest of the world of ASOIAF yet in the HBO series. The Dornish and Summer Islanders are examples of civilized non-whites. The Dothraki are more tribal. The majority of people inhabiting Westeros are civilized white people. The Burned Men and Wildlings are more barbaric. GRRM did write in all kinds of people. We essentially only have half of the book series, so who is to say that GRRM doesn’t have plans for a non-white POV. Even if he doesn’t, though, I think his series already does a fantastic job of showing that “civilized” doesn’t equal “good/smart,” and “barbaric” doesn’t equal “evil/stupid.”
MiraxQuote Reply
You’re right, Imp.
*bows*
HollyoakQuote Reply
It is pretty ridiculous really. There is nothing racist at all in the novels or in the series, at least as far as the first episode is concerned which is all most of us have seen at this point. Portraying one kind of society as ‘barbaric’ is in no way inherently racist, even if that culture happens to be of colour. Especially since Martin’s writing rarely condemns characters, their actions etc explicitly. It is also very obvious that morality in the series is often very grey which further steers away from a simplistic model like ‘dark skin = primitive’.
So yeah, to me it is pretty much the equivalent to saying that portraying a content housewife in a work of art is inherently sexist or male chauvinist.
MuspelheimQuote Reply
I’m SO sick of people always bringing up the race thing. “Is Tolkien racist?” “Is GRRM racist?” The answers are no, and no.
I really don’t think we should be linking to any more trashy articles by Slate.
LexQuote Reply
Julian Walker,
I would agree that ASOIAF is ‘racist’, and also ‘sexist’ in its portrayals – and I don’t know if this will come across properly in the written word here,
but I don’t feel like it was done intentionally, or with malice, I think it was just a white guy writing white guy stuff. And I read it, and watch it, and I can see that it’s somewhat racist, and somewhat sexist, but I can enjoy it because I don’t feel like it’s ‘malicious’. It’s sort of like when I watch old Star Treks, and Kirk is putting the moves on the blue or green colored girl of the week. It’s kind of corny, but they didn’t mean to be racist or sexist. I mean, we’ve got Uhura, after all, a female of color in a respected crew position. And we get Brienne, and Arya, and Alleras. I think it’s coming across a bit worse on the TV show, due to compressed story lines, and the increased emotion that comes with a visual medium.
There are some shows I have seen, or books that I have started to read, that have been so offensively racist or sexist that I have stopped reading them or watching them. ASOIAF is not that bad, and definitely gets better as you get further into the series, I believe.
I know many of the guys here have had trouble with our complaints of ‘excess boobage’, and the female nudity, and think we women are having problems with seeing naked boobs, when that’s not the issue at all, for me, anyway. It’s the *inequal distribution* of nudity. If we could see as many ‘fat pink masts’ as we do boobs per episode, that would solve the issue, for me. It’s the inequality of WHO is naked, and what we see, that makes it annoying and more offensive. If we talk bottoms, let’s see, we see Dany’s bottom, Cersei’s bottom, and 4 ‘whore’ bottoms, so that’s 6 girl bottoms, and how many guy bottoms do we see? None, that I remember. We get three shirtless young guys in a haircutting scene, but that is not ‘nudity’ per TV standards.
purplejillyQuote Reply
Right, so one guy who has a very small part in the series. And then, a whore, and part of a boat crew? Uh, OK.
Look, while the relative racial homogeneity of Westeros is not going to ruin anything for me (they are my favorite books ever, after all), where’s the harm in mixing it up a little? Would putting some minorities in a few prominent roles really negatively affect anything? Might even help to draw some more viewers in. I won’t lose any sleep over it, I’m not angry about it it’d just be cool if they’d taken more of a chance here and there. But I did acknowledge the possibility future books may offer more opportunities, hopefully that’ll happen.
Nigel TufnelQuote Reply
The dothraki are a nomadic tribe who do everything in the open. It’s a warm climate over there and they are not exactly fully clothed. Having said that and coming from an evolutionaly point of view, wouldn’t it be considered unrealistic if the dothraki were NOT people “of color”?
And while we are at it, in “The Wire”, was it considered racist back then when the N word was used like all the time? Or was it OK because only black people used that word? And if so, why was it OK?
JimmyQuote Reply
Nothing is less appealing to me than the prospect of discussing the political correctness of Westeros. This is such an incredibly ridiculous debate. Goodbye, thread.
LexQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
What I *think* people mean when talking about Racism in GoT, at least the TV series, is so far the white people are the ‘civilized’ knights, rulers, lords, etc. The dark people are the ‘uncivilized’ barbaric hordes, eating gross food, living in huts, and screwing their women doggie style at weddings in front of everyone instead of the privacy of a tower (lol). Their clothes, their living abodes, and their lifestyle is more primitive, therefore they ‘appear’ to be lower class, less intelligent, etc. And then youve got the ultra-white, ultra-blond Viserys, ‘tricking’ the stupid dark Dothraki by giving them the ‘treasured gift’ of a white woman to marry their leader, in order to go have them fight and die and get his kingdom back for him.
Little do viewers know how all this is going to backfire on Viserys. So much of this changes around, and how you view Dany, Viserys and Khal Drogo is going to spin completely around, but right now, at first initial viewing on the TV screen, people are rushing to judgement, and saying ‘ewwww, this is so trope and so racist!’. And right now, it actually is that way. But it’s going to change. I hope the non-reader people who feel discouraged by the racism now will stick with it, because it does get better.
purplejillyQuote Reply
purplejilly,
well, as i said it’s a middle age setting. it’s just realistic IMHO
and, by the way, dothraki aren’t even black!
boh.
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
I don’t think we should link to those articles either. They only stir the pot.
It’s hard to “talk” about this issue on the Intertubes, where tone and intent aren’t always clear. It’s really, really hard, in fact, but I will try anyway, even though I am sure I am going to regret it, because someone is going to take it the wrong way.
Was Tolkien racist? Of course not. In fact, I recall an article where someone asked, for whatever reason, if he had any Jewish blood. Tolkien answered that he did not, to his knowledge, share that great people’s heritage. Or something like that.
He was though, of course, a product of his times. The Easterlings in the Lord of the Rings are described as “swarthy and dusky.” Often, everything that is evil is “black.” The Black Riders, The Dark Lord, the Dark Tower, etc. (Now someone is going to reply by saying: You mean to say that because Tolkien had Black Riders he is racist?) Groan…
Anyway, it may be hard to understand if you are non-white. ( I am a black person.) Blacks and other people of color have grown up with a different kind of radar. Where some non-white viewers would see the first scene of the Dothraki as strange, weird, awful, whatever, some blacks and people of color automatically say: “Wow, first people of color we see and they are dancing, raping and killing.” Know what I mean.
That’s all it is. It’s looking at the world from a lens that is a little bit different, based on our own lives and upbringings, history, etc.
I don’t think anyone in this thread was ever saying GRRM was “R” word. (I don’t even want to put the great GRRM’s name in the same sentence with that word.)
I would have to disagree with the suggestion of putting people of color in the TV series. That, to me, doesn’t speak to bravery and uniqueness, but to pandering and political correctness. The author did not make the Old Bear black, and Tolkien didn’t make Aragorn Latino. I think that would be a disservice to the source material.
Anyway, I could go on, but I’m tired. LOL.
I hope people can at least understand where I’m coming from.
HollyoakQuote Reply
How many prominent people of colour were there in Richard III’s retinue? In the court of Charlemagne? To the extent that Westeros reflects medieval Europe, it’s fairly accurate in its racial homogeneity. Until the advent of modern transport technology, there wasn’t a lot of mobility for populations, and so random mixing of ethnic groups was rare. One group might conquer another, but that would lead to wholesale importation of large populations, and not a random person of a different ethnic group.
The world of ASoIaF has a lot of different ethnic populaces, in different parts of the world. I don’t think it’s racist to imply that those groups don’t generally mix that much.
TulseQuote Reply
Good God this crap makes me sick.
There are plenty of openly racist people in this world you can go complain about. Go do something about that.
To waste time trying to “find” racism where none is intended is a big fuc^*&$ng waste of time.
Lex had it right… Goodbye thread!
EdQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
I know, Jason Momoa is obviously not african-american, but he’s ‘brown’, so I guess if you’re dark enough, then it counts as ‘racist’.
purplejillyQuote Reply
Hollyoak,
Hollyoak, that was well put, and I understand exactly what you mean. I agree with you. And it IS harder to explain on the Internet. But you did pretty well!
purplejillyQuote Reply
Fantasy is different from historical reality, but at the same time it is often familiar. The reason I think is that it is easier for us to transplant our own reality into a fantastical setting rather than come up with something from scratch. So, Westerosi are white since they are essentially European. The barbarians in Westeros are white: wildlings, mountain clans, and iron born, are also white since they too are European. The Dornish are based on Middle-eastern cultures so they will look Arabic or Persian. The Dothraki are a nomadic horse people so they look like a historical nomadic horse people, though I’d have preferred a Mongol look rather than Amerindian.
I personally think this works better than adding token characters to create artificial diversity. Hopefully, it will become clear that the Dothraki are no more barbaric than anyone else in the series, they just don’t disguise it with a civilized facade.
PS the National Review backing up GRRM is a hilarious irony. Broken clock is suppose.
QuantaQuote Reply
I think it was Brude who first suggested blacks in certain roles that weren’t specifically white. I know we had a discussion about whether someone such as Bronn, where we don’t really know his lineage, could be played by a black actor (I think he could have, easily).
But GRRM’s world is very specific regarding lineage. Westeros is very Europe; you could even argue Dorne is very much akin to Spain, both in its southern locale and its people of multiple hues (from dusky-skinned Moors to very white Caucasians).
The Dothraki, to me, always felt a little hodge-podge. Like Mongol-slash-something-slash-something. And they slowly over the years (because of their traveling nature I imagine it isn’t just Drogo who takes brides from some of the cities that pay homage to them) integrated some of the peoples we see on the television show (black, Asian, you name it). I have no problem with the “ethnic” look of the Dothraki. I think as the show expands and we see more “civilized” (read: wealthy) people from Essos, this sort of subject will be moot. Sallador Saan ain’t a white boy, and that dude’s loaded (whether he admits it or not).
Fire And BloodQuote Reply
Thanks, Purplejilly!
Now I’m going to leave this thread and go back to more serious discussions like the shape of Jaime’s nose, Dany’s eye color and the design of the roofs at Winterfell.
I’m out!
Ugh, nothing brings me down like fans of great books de-volving into race discussions.
HollyoakQuote Reply
Tulse,
Actually there´s a much more important reason than lack of transportation.
Climate.
Northern Europe = less sun = paler skin in order to get enough vitamin D
Rickets would have been a huge problem for any large black population and every new generation would be paler and paler.
CzarQuote Reply
– typical American political correctness run amok.
Isn’t it politically incorrect to ignore the other offenses going on? Constantly referring to Tyrion as “the imp” is just wrong not to mention the indiscriminate slaughter of little people later in the story. Plus, all that capitol punishment isn’t very humane. Didn’t someone tweet about the horses and who cares for the ones that run away? What about using ravens like some twisted indentured postal service, forcing the elderly to wear heavy metal chains around their necks and work until they die, and forcing young children into marriage? Dismemberment! Tree worship! Horse worship! Incest! Rape! Polytheism!
If it offends you so, stick to The Bachelor where they only denigrate women.
Mike ChairQuote Reply
I think a lot of this debate popped up just because a couple of the dancers at the wedding were black, one of whom had her boobies prominently displayed, most noticeably during Dany’s long walk to her big ride. It was a rather strange casting choice, although I don’t think in the book it was clear that those dancers were Dothraki. I always pictured the main population of black people in the books to be the Summer Islanders, but then I’m sure people will go off about their stereotypical aspects as well, even if they are more “positive” (they’re pretty randy, as I recall).
But whatever, not worth getting hung up on in any case, except for those people looking for something to get hung up on. And they are legion.
Steven SwansonQuote Reply
I would like to accuse George, HBO, D&D and that random guy over-there of being Alienacist (whoa what a word!)
I mean the first thing we see of Others/White Walkers and theyre beheading people, speaking like cracking ice, arranging body parts into weird and unnecessary symbols only to have those same body parts take a walk, running in a menacing fashion and are not white at all!
Whats up with that?!
I demand that supernatural alien races or life forms (even when they look like zombies) are portrayed in a more positive fashion AND i demand there are some Chinese people among them! And Eskimos! And Aborigines!
The Smiling KnightQuote Reply
I am a HUGE fan of fantasy and as a non-American, non-European, non-white person (Middle East/Arab) I have learned to simply accept the racism that is usually found in this genre. I have come to realize that it is not malicious.
To create an interesting fantasy world, one necessarily needs to create exotic and different cultures whilst ensuring that said cultures are accessible to readers. If an author creates a really really strange out-of-this-world culture, he/she would need to spend an incredible amount of time ‘world-building’ and sacrificing plot and character development. So, if one creates a culture that is sufficiently exotic but that can be easily imagined by the reader this problem is resolved. Unfortunately the the more accesible a culture is to readers the more realistic it becomes to other human cultures. It need not be a simple Dothraki = Mongols but more like Dothraki = Mongols/Native Americans/Nomadic Bedouins etc. So long as it connects to some ideas we already know. Human culture is the only kind of culture we know and it is all we can base our imagination on. This problem will never go away until we meet non-human cultures! (Then it would be Alienism?)
THAT BEING SAID, I have to say the depiction of the Dothraki in the pilot was pretty funny. I cannot see how anyone would not find their depiction racist. They are presented as one race and yet are obviously NOT one race (you had African American actors, Middle Eastern looking actors, Asian looking actors) – it was essentially the non-white people race. I don’t have that big a problem with the turbans, snakes, veils etc. (which are obviously screaming ‘orient’ and only warrant an eye roll) but at least get the actor’s race right! The Dothraki in the book were not presented as a cosmopolitan people – they were close knit tribes and obviously the same race. I’m pretty sure there would be an uproar if Arya was played by an Asian girl.
Anyway, it’s very difficult to create a fantasy culture that is not connected to a specific human culture. Some authors are actually very good and creative about it , some are not. GRRM is not the best when it come to this aspect of his work, but he makes up for it with just about everything else :)
K-dogQuote Reply
The problem with a lot of this analysis is that it doesn’t make a distinction between whether it’s the depicted society that’s offensive, or if the books themselves have a racist/sexist message. For me, that’s a big difference. Content vs. intent. I don’t see anything malicious in the intent, and a society that has prejudice ingrained in it, while not ideal, doesn’t make the work itself a racist platform. It’s unfortunate that the Dothraki in the show look like something out of Film Studies 101: Eurocentrism and the Non-white Barbarians, but that doesn’t mean that the story advocates bigotry.
ariQuote Reply
Then that brings up the question to me of: How many is “a few” and how prominent?
SleekyQuote Reply
People have made the same argument about lots of movies(LoTR, Avatar, etc) and you could make the same point about a lot of movies with a similar theme, IE Dances with Wolves. It is what it is.
I do think that the Dothraki could’ve been portrayed much better as they did come off as a bit of a hodge-podge of “not white.” I am thinking they did this because they wouldn’t be able to get that many extras of a similar race to Jason Momoa. IMO, there is nothing malicious or ill-intended by it though.
Also, I don’t think the argument will hold up as the season progresses. If anything, as the story goes on, the Dothraki are portrayed as some of the more honest and straight up characters in the book. They may have sex and kill, but so does everyone else. The difference is I don’t think you would ever see the Dothraki stoop to the levels of depravity that you see all around Westeros, and I think it could be argued that they have more honor than most of what remains among the powerful “white” kingdoms.
ChrisQuote Reply
I’d like to see an adaptation of a China Mieville book and see if people could find a racism angle in that.
“Oh, of course they make the giant fucking cactus-men bad guys…”
ChrisQuote Reply
i was watching game of thrones, Michelle Fairley looks absolutely identical to Joan Allen.
peter inghamQuote Reply
I wouldn’t call ASOIAF racist, but as a non-white fan, I do wish there were interesting characters of other races. I hope as the story extends into other regions (Dorne) of Westeros they will be able to show more races in roles other than slaves. I was really excited about the Dorne characters in AFFC because to me the Martells are incredibly interesting and I see them as either Indian or Middle Eastern. I really hope that’s how they are portrayed.
I always pictured the Dothraki as brown skinned Africans or possibly Native Americans. I’m OK with the choice to use a Hawaiian as Drogo, I guess, but I thought it was weird seeing the other Dothraki were a mixed bag of “brown people”: blacks, whites who look like they were painted brown, Indians, etc. It would make more sense to choose one race to represent the Dothraki. Then again, assuming some of those people were “captured” from rival tribes, it might explain why not everyone is the same race.
I hope as Dany travels Essos we will see that not everyone is as barbaric as the Dothraki. I also hope to see other races. I picture the people of Asshai as pale white people with red hair and American accents (lol), but as others have suggested, I would be ok with Asian (Japanese/Korean/Chinese) with red hair. The Lhazareen could easily be interpreted to be Indian, Native American, light-skinned Africans, etc.
For this world to really feel real it would make sense to have it reflect our own world a little better.
PS: I’m completely game for casting Idris Elba as a major player in future seasons. I know the people of Lys are blonde/blue eyed, but for some reason I’ve always pictured Elba for Sallador Saan. I think when reading I allow the characters’ names to influence how I picture them more than their physical descriptions.
SKQuote Reply
K-dog,
Well said.
Steven SwansonQuote Reply
Hollyoak,
I totally agree with this. Couldn’t have said it better.
SKQuote Reply
HP Lovecraft was certainly racist, and so was Georges Rémi. Asking if GRRM is racist is about as useful as a college educated [race] [gender].
screwsQuote Reply
Two really cool items I noticed today.
1.) GRRM’s blog had a link to these women who create recipes based on Westeros themes, the website is humorous and the recipes look scrumptous.
Innatthecrossroads
2.) On HBO on-demand they have a awesome video about the making of the Title Sequence, including a very spoilerish look at the EYRIE.
TysnowQuote Reply
I came to this discussion thread thinking people would be talking about the D&D Season 2 interview … obviously not *shrug*
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
That’s actually a fantastic interview with D&D. Obviously their minds are on future seasons now. And the fact that more violence is going to happen to the kids than the stuff that happened in the books?
Blows my mind.
Uh, good luck, kids.
Fire And BloodQuote Reply
When you look at the first episode of GoT on HBO only, I can understand if people wonder about race issues when they first see white medieval nobles in Westeros, and then turn to a bunch of mixed colored people who dance and rape. That transition could have been done way better I think, considering the accusation of racism in Asoiaf is quite unfair. The dornish has been mentioned ofc, but I’m specifically thinking about how Martin describes the summer islanders. So far we dont have an indept study of the culture, but what we know indicates the opposite of stereotycial western colonial descritions. For starters, they are great ship builders, exlorers and merchants, with the fastest sailing ships around. This in itself indicates some kind of advanced and rich society and culture. But whats more interesting is that they seem to live in an unusually equal society, where men and women work side by side and where women are not held back by their gender. The summer islanders also seem to have a refreshingly healty perspective on sexuality (my own opinion :D ), which people are allowed to exlore and develop as they please. This is a huuuge contrast to the very patriachal and rigid society of Westeros (maybe with the exeption of Dorne). Heck, if I had to choose someplace to live in Martins world, I would without doubt choose the Summer islands. Seems like a much better place, compared to everything else. This contrast is a great addition to the books, and makes the accusation of steretypical blacks less potent.
BobbenQuote Reply
YOu know GoT is hitting some sweet spots when it gets referred to in reviews of other TV shows.
In the Guardian (UK) today – the TV review of epsiode 1 of the new series of ‘Dr Who’ (pretty significant TV event here), the paper said this on the somewhat confusing plot:
“Yes, it’s for kids and all that, but there must be many small children, and perhaps their parents too, who secretly wished that Sean Bean might be transported from Westeros to start talking some bloody sense.”
MartinQuote Reply
The Dothraki are always seen through the eyes of Daenerys, giving us a very prejudiced first impression of this “savage tribe”. But over time she learns the culture and her husband better, and the picture isn’t as black and white as it first seemed.
I think the production team could’ve emphasized the more realistic elements and skipped some of the cliché ones (the choreographed dancing for one), and Daenerys’ fear would’ve been even more understandable.
I actually thought the Slate article by Nina Shen Rastogi was fairly balanced though. She was opening up for discussion around the topic, not claiming GoT is racist. As she said, “my initial reaction to the wedding scene in Game of Thrones was not to storm off in an offended huff, but to laugh.” I have to admit I shared her reaction.
JoakimQuote Reply
Racism in ASOIF ?…..Oh God …can we please move 0n…
coltaine777Quote Reply
K-dog,
i will agree in so much as i think HBO totally f**ked up the Dothraki from a looks/art direction point of view. the not picking one race of extra to portray them was absolute stupidity. Malta isn’t that far away from Tunisia i mean they couldn’t have at least consistently cast a bunch of Tunisian or Tunisian descent extras? the hodge podge nature of the whole thing is what makes it worse imho. had they really focused on a clear and distinct racial look and cultural look for them it wouldn’t be nearly as bad. the costuming is way way way way off too. they are a nomadic people. they wouldn’t have a bunch of textiles. they’d wear more leathers and skins (mostly horse). they may love horses and be a horse people but raising that many horses means a lot of dead horses just naturally that need to be used in their entirety. their clothing would probably feature a lot of bone and maybe even some things made of horse hair. of course they might have some textiles and other fabrics thrown in since they also raid and pillage but i would imagine that would be more accent pieces.
basically, as much as i love the show, somebody completely f**ked the pooch on the portrayal of the Dothraki, from how they cast the extras to the art direction of the whole thing top to bottom. it is just one big jumbled mess. that isn’t racist that is just incompetence.
Who Is Jacopo Belbo?Quote Reply
I think that some Americans are sooooooo over the top with all that PC crap that it makes me want to vomit. I mean, racism? In the GoT?? Like seriously??? :D
Andrija Andrew PQuote Reply
ASoIaF is not racist
CaedesQuote Reply
I would argue, as others have, that the wildlings, the mountain tribes of the Vale, and the bloody mummers stand as the most morally reprehensible folk in the books and they’re 99% white. The Dothraki, while they rape and pillage just like the Mongols that informed their culture, do operate on a strict social code and Khal Drogo is one of the most just people in the story. Wether you agree with him or not, he has a very clear sense of what is right and wrong. Such moral clarity is quite foreign to all the other characters in the story. If something is racist, I would think that it’s purpose (intended or otherwise) would be to leave others thinking that a people group is somehow worse that others. I get the opposite feeling with the Dothraki. If you like the Slate article you’ll really love the new article I’m working on called Do Fish Have Feathers? It’s a breathtaking look at wether or not something that so obviously isn’t true is in fact true! In the end I don’t reach a conclusion but that’s perfect for the Slate audience.
KingthlayerQuote Reply
might add this to the racism debate? http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/is-game-of-thrones-racist-not-even-wrong/
TPFKA Thoros of MyrQuote Reply
Ok, then enlighten us as to how the Dothraki SHOULD look?
cardusQuote Reply
I would just love to see Varys played by a black actor.
That would go so well with his disguises, wouldnt it?
It would be like that scene in Top Secret.
By the way… how come all these “race concerned people” are only asking for black people to be forced into the series?
I would really, really like to know.
The Smiling KnightQuote Reply
This is one of the many reasons I don’t like the changes made to Dany’s wedding night (I understand why it was done and there are book->show changes I like, this just isn’t one of them). We lose something that gives Drogo’s character some depth, and also shows at least one Dothraki being something more than stereotypically barbaric.
The description in the books was quite vague- the Dothraki could have been of almost any ethnicity except white- since they live somewhere very hot and sunny, making them white wouldn’t make sense. But once Drogo was cast, that decided what the Dothraki would look like. I’m surprised they are so varied, but maybe that will be mentioned in the show (absorbing conquered peoples and former slaves perhaps?).
Of course it is somewhat awkward that the group of ‘barbarians’ has to be non-white, but I think once we meet the mountain clans, and find out more about the wildlings (not to metion Craster- yuk) it will become clear that barbarism isn’t restricted to any particular ethnicity. Not to mention that the ‘civilised’ people often get up to far worse.
I wouldn’t have objected at all if some prominent roles that weren’t genetically connected to the major houses (obvious plot issues) had been cast as different ethnicities- but neither am I upset that it’s worked out as it has, the best people for the roles were cast.
Btw, it’s probably not in line with other people’s perceptions, but I always pictured Arianne as a younger version of supermodel Iman (aka Mrs David Bowie!) and am still hoping the Dornish people match my imagination- though I won’t be worried if they don’t.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Thats so true! I didnt even think about that. I await some angry articles about racism against white people when we get to those episodes!
Or maybe not… But it should hopefully calm down a few people.
sjweningsQuote Reply
Perhaps this is true in how the Dothraki treat one another, but I have to say that since their entire culture is based around the debasement, rape and pillage of those whom they consider lesser beings – like the “Lamb Men”, I don’t actually think they are more admirable than the people of Westeros; think Tywin’s sack of King’s Landing but all the time. Where did all those statues in Vaes Dothrak come from any way? This is the constant refrain in my head when Dany gets starry-eyed about her “sun and stars” and frankly I thought the idea of the “Stallion Who Mounts the World”, wedding the Dothraki appetite for conquest with the Targaryen genes for pure craziness, sounded like a disaster in the making. BUT the Lazareen who are supposedly the same “race” as the Dothraki but are sedentary cultivators rather than nomadic and predatory ARE portrayed positively, IMO, and they are also non-white, just totally victimized by the Dothraki.
A lot of high fantasy IS based in medieval Europe, but there’s The Tales of the Otori which is based in Japan and Chris Wooding’s Saramyr books which sound like they take place in some sort of Chinese/Central Asian steppe thing. One of the articles I read on race in fantasy put forward Jacqueline Carey as an example of using different races in her fantasy fiction but at least in the Kushiel series, I honestly think she goes a step farther along in the racial badness stuff: she uses non-Europeans as scenery since the really, really incredibly deeply evil civilization is based on ancient Persia and moreover, the most amazing place in the world where the people are literally descended from angels and are so beautiful that no one else can possibly compare to them is … France.
I should maybe say here that I’m half-Indian (the South Asian kind) and in my heritage there is vast and complex mythology (and two great epics) that I wish would be explored more closely in fantasy fiction. There’s a lot of great stuff in the Mahabharata about power, love, greed, comradeship, belief, pride, and even polyandry :P It’s waiting to happen, I can feel it!
Regina ThorneQuote Reply
If I were GRRM I would feel pretty insulted at having people speculating about my work being racist. Hopefully he will not be affected by this obsessive political correctness that I’m afraid has gripped the minds of many well-meaning individuals.
I’ll leave it at that though since part of the charm of fiction is to get a break from charged and infected debates about real-world issues.
FilfrasQuote Reply