Executive producers and writers David Benioff and D. B. Weiss have been on the publicity circuit for Game of Thrones since early January with nary a break. Here are three recent articles where David & Dan talked Thrones, each providing some new and interesting tidbits.
First, this interview with AOL TV’s Mo Ryan, who sat down with the pair at the Winter TCA press tour in Jan. Some good info here, including a very spoilery bit about the final scene season one. Be sure to read it only if you’ve read the entire first book. I also liked this quote from Benioff about the human drama present in the show:
Well, I think what you say is — you’re absolutely right when you [talk about] bringing it to the human level. And again, this all goes back to the first time — it’s almost five years ago now — that we brought it to HBO. They were very nervous, you know, trying to do an epic fantasy for television. Even though HBO is much more generous with their budgets than many people are with television budgets, it’s still a television budget and you’re trying to shoot something on television schedule. We can’t do the Peter Jackson ['Lord of the Rings'] thing where he’s spending two years in New Zealand and has weeks with helicopters shooting and armies of 500,000 orcs fighting a million elves or whatever. We’re never going to be able to compete on that level.
But where we can compete and where we think we can actually do better than movies is getting down and dirty with those people and being very intimate with them and lavishing 10 hours on these characters and getting to know them better than you ever could with movies.
The next article featuring D&D is this piece by Charlie Jane Anders at sci-fi blog io9. Quite a few cool bits of interesting info is this one, most of it positive, however this part got me a little worried about what lies ahead:
Benioff said they “wouldn’t make any guarantees about anything,” but reiterated that they’re passionate about being true to the books. At the same time, Weiss pointed out that they couldn’t possibly have the casting budget to include all of the characters who turn up in A Clash of Kings, the second book. Already, they’ve had to cut or combine some minor characters in the first book, but in the second season they might actually have to cut some comparatively major characters just to avoid having a cast of thousands.
And lastly, this piece at TV Guide focuses on the ending of the series and how Benioff and Weiss have talked with George R. R. Martin about where this story is going. Not only have they been given early access to A Dance with Dragons (they’ve read the first 600 pages), but they even know how the series will end — and have already begun talking about that final episode.
“We’ve talked through what the final episode, the final season will be.” Executive producer David Benioff adds: “We can’t wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We’re very confident.”
Winter Is Coming: They’re already thinking about the final season? I guess that is good. As for me, I’m just hoping we can get through A Storm of Swords, anything after that will be a bonus.
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133 Comments
Well, we knew that GRRM gave D&D some info about where the series was heading… but actually discussing the final episode of the show? Wow.
I’m not sure whether I’m more excited or worried by the prospect. I would love to see the show go all the way, but I’m obviously worried about GRRM being able to keep pace.
LexQuote Reply
The first season of True Blood was very faithful to the first novel. Except the death of Lafayette, which was changed for the show. After that, they moved more and more away from the books. I hope we won’t see the same for GoT, but it could very well happen. I think adapting this first season is easy compared to what it’ll be to adapt Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords.
JoohnsonQuote Reply
If people gasp about the last scene in the first episode, their heads are going to explode over the red wedding.
Mike RosenzweigQuote Reply
Haha! D&D’s sinister plot is revealed; they wanted to get their hands on Dance of Dragons before the release date.
Crafty bastards, those.
Freely SeekQuote Reply
That is indeed surprising re: Clash of Kings casting!
I had assumed otherwise, considering we lose Viserys, Drogo, and Eddard. Couldn’t they discover some more talented, just-right unknowns to carry the roles of Stannis, Melisandre, etc, forgetting those ideal cast choices?
Because let’s face it, I’d rather they cast new faces and save money and be able to do the story justice then bring in stars and be short on budget!
kerningQuote Reply
Eh, honestly I can live with all that. If they can stay true to the books but develop their own thing at the same time, more power to them. We have to be realistic after all. The cast is so huge and people have already made comments about how hard it is to keep track of the cast as is…
JoshQuote Reply
I can imagine what the last shot of the season is, but I didn’t read that part in the Mo Ryan interview.
Pretty cool though, that David and Dan are probably the only people aside from GRRM who know how the series ends.
HollyoakQuote Reply
I know the ending. Winter Comes. Duh.
Mike RosenzweigQuote Reply
I’m kind of miffed that that Catelyn line isn’t in the show. It’s such a big deal to the character, and such a memorable quote.
It seems like, all around their trying to soften Catelyn a lot, and I’m not sure how I feel about that. While I understand that they want the audience to feel sympathetic toward her, I think they’re doing a disservice to their audience in assuming people can’t deal with major character flaws.
For me, it isn’t the sex or the violence or any of that stuff that makes ASoIaF a more mature series, it’s how the characters are portrayed and the fact that they aren’t easy and that they do some things that you really really might have a problem with.
I don’t want a nicey nice Catelyn, or a muted down Hound– I want the complexity and intensity and humanity of GRRM’s characters. ):
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
BUT WHAT IF GRRM CHANGES HIS MIND ABOUT THE ENDING, le gasp, et cetera. Though hopefully he’ll have gotten that book writ up before it comes to final-season-writing time, knock on wood twice.
Steve Hugh Westenra,
It’s interesting you feel that way. From the selection of previews and interview remarks, I had the opposite reaction! It’s to be hoped that they maintain the balance of her complex humanity, without either making her Madonna or Evil Stepmother. I’m not very pessimistic about it.
JQuote Reply
If anything, the “major” character that could probably be cut most easily is Davos, which is unfortunate. Melisandre and Stannis are both essential, and Brienne cannot be dropped without completely changing Jaime’s entire character arc, but Davos is only necessary from a literary perspective because otherwise we’d have no insight on Stannis. That’s not as important in a TV show, which is a bit sad.
EnterilQuote Reply
I was surprised they cut the line, but Catelyn definitely isn’t “nicey nice.” She is still very cold to Jon, so I think the spirit of her character hasn’t changed. But yeah, that line really cut to the core of her feelings, so I was surprised it was dropped.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
I am soo glad that they are at least considering the second season even before they aired the first one, I am just hoping that we will be able to survive the first season with fairly strong ratings and audience.. Btw does anyone know when can you order the dvd from HBO? I mean how long is a typical waiting period between airing the show and having a chance to order it? And I am in Croatia, if that matters..
Maester IvoQuote Reply
Anyone else besides me, who have started using “Pull a LOST” in conversations? *I sadly think it will become viral*
Hehehe.
I’ve known for a year or two now that George has a good grasp on how he wants to end his story. But its also good to know that D&D know the gist to so they can seed the shows right. Im ok with them knowing. Just as long as they dont have loose lips.
“loose lips sink ships” So David and Dan keep those lips tight around anyone except you two and George.
I can see Blackfish being cut. Wouldnt like it but it could happen. Some of the nasty characters in the story could be cut. Like Rorge and Biter. Merge some of if not all of Gregors men into Gregors characters, or just have certain newbie actors perform a line with a name attached, such as the tickler. I really cant see Davos being cut. He has far to many interactions with Stannis. But they could merge Davos’s character into Mels. But I think I remember one of the producers mentioning Davos as an interesting character to see. Lose some of Freys numerous sons that talk to just extras in costume…to merge into one or two of them.
We should compile a list of who we think could get cut and those needed to be kept in.
WolfheartQuote Reply
I love them hinting that Robb may take a larger role in season 2. I’d love to see all the stuff we are told about in the books actually happening.
Also, I really, really dig the idea of the changing opening map as new areas become prominenet in the story. It might be a minor point, but I love looking for little changes that take place in shows from episode to episode. From the Observer on Fringe, to the chalkboard on the Simpsons, its a fun treat for regular viewers. What’s more, its probably going to actually be informative for folks who don’t have a map of Westeros tattooed to the back of their eyelids like we all do.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
I think it usually takes about a year after an HBO show’s season ends for the DVD to come out. I think Hollywood films are quicker these days, sometimes in only a few months.
If I am wrong on this someone please put an end to my mummer’s farce.
HollyoakQuote Reply
For me it will always be pulling a Bababooey!
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
If I had to guess at character cuts, I’d think they would lean towards Berric, Thoros and the bros without banners. It would suck major auroch’s balls if they did, but I can see them cutting them or whittling the group down without hurting the story too much. I only ask that they at least keep Tom O’Sevens. Hmm spoilers button isn’t up apparently, so let me just say that his last scene at Riverrun in AFFC is way to cool to cut. There is also the bit about a dog and lightning that’s pretty cool.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
Steve Hugh Westenra,
Agreed. When i saw the scene in the latest Making of, where she told Jon “I want you to leave”, with Ned in the background, it seemed to me that they might have cut the “it should have been you”-line, since i doubted they would show Jon visiting Bran twice or Catelyn saying this with Ned next to her.
It kinda sucks, because, though not necessary to the plot, or to show how Catelyn feels about Jon, it’s just a damn good, memorable line. I suppose they wanted her to seem a bit less like a bitch. But this was something she said when wracked with grief – As long as she does not act like this in general, i don’t really se how the audience wouldn’t be able to stomach her.
Oh, well. At least they didn’t change Jaimes infamous line to “I want you to leave!” *shove*
sjweningsQuote Reply
TV Guide? Cover story?
Addison ClarkQuote Reply
The show doesn’t have to be a copy of every part of the book. That’s why the books are there.
Harry Potter movies tried that and they got bogged down.
A streamlined version of the books is fine, as long as what’s on the screen is good.
JoseQuote Reply
They can’t cut the Brotherhood entirely. Consider the Epilogue of Storm and the implications that has, as well as a large part of Arya’s arc. Beric and Thoros are probably safe.
EnterilQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Sometimes, a simple look can say a thousand things.
Mike RosenzweigQuote Reply
I shouldn’t be laughing at this but I am :-p.
JoshQuote Reply
Lord Ned’s Head, well, Beric makes an appearance in the first season and Thoros (and his flaming sword) is at least talked about, so not sure either of them would be cut.
Davos is someone who I speculated that they might lessen the role of. I’m not sure if they could, or would, cut him completely. Especially now after reading the recent Daily Beast article where he was mentioned as one of D&D’s favorite characters.
The Blackfish though… yeah, he might be one of those “comparatively major characters” that gets the axe. (I can hear Blackfish Blues shrieking in horror already.)
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Do you think that Roose Bolton is a character that could be cut or merged? He plays an important role in the series, especially in ASOS red wedding but his motives would be hard to tell through television and I know he wasn’t cast in the first season, where he had a very minor part in the book.
Arrogant BastardQuote Reply
Perhaps they could merge Blackfish and Edmure somehow? Some sort of slightly older, battle-hardened Edmure that has never wanted to marry?
EnterilQuote Reply
We’ve seen a Bolton sigil (on that leaked site this week), so maybe they’re keeping him?
I doubt they’d cut all the outlaws, since Beric is already in Season 1, and a certain stone-hearted lady must join their ranks down the road. They may condense some of them, or leave some nameless.
I agree that we may lose Davos…
LexQuote Reply
I can’t see them cutting any character who has a point of view. Blackfish seems like a likely candidate, perhaps some of the Greyjoys, maybe combine Rorge and Biter, Qhorin… I see characters like that being cut or combined before Davos. I guess it just depends on what one considers a “major” character.
TCQuote Reply
Lex,
We also get to see a full color Bolton banner, along with a Hornwood and Umber one, in the 25 minute making of GOT.
Avalanche3319Quote Reply
I think losing Davos entirely would be a bigger deal than people are making it out to be. He does basically function as Stannis’s conscience, and so many decisions Stannis makes are directly influenced by him. He just serves as such an interesting counterpoint to Melisandre, particularly in their scene together under Storm’s End, and that whole plotline would be entirely different without him.
Steven SwansonQuote Reply
Steven Swanson,
Good point. D&D must constantly try to think of characters to cut, only to say “Damn you GRRM, for making such well-developed, integral characters!”.
LexQuote Reply
Is it possible they’ll cut Dorne completely?
LexQuote Reply
When they mean they are cutting characters, are they talking about cutting characters like they cut some of the handmaidens and bloodriders for season 1? If that is the case, I will not be losing any sleep. If Lollys and Lady Tanda and the trader Davos interacts with a lot (totally cannot remember his name and my copy of ACOK is on loan) are cut, as well as many of Renly’s bannermen, I won’t be sad.
If they start cutting Davos or Brienne and the Blackfish, I might have some issues. I am not saying Davos has to be a huge character, or even appear as more than a background character, but to cut him completely would seem unecessary. I know there is a large cast, but they don’t need recognizable names for all these characters. Many of them can just be featured extras and such.
What really worries me though is their implication that they might have characters who don’t “make it all the way through the books will get to stick around a bit longer”
Why would they ever need to mess with that. Taking away the “anyone can die” aspect of the books would literally ruin the series for me. If Robb suddenly lived through the Red Wedding, I don’t know what I would do with myself.
Time will tell, but back to cut characters, who would they even need to cast for this next season?
Stannis, Melisandre, Brienne, Davos, Blackfish, Pyat Pree, Thoros of Myr, Hoster, Edmure, Asha, Ygritte, Podrick, Jaquen Hagar,Dontos, Quorin, and Balon Greyjoy so I count that as 16 characters that I would say show up (Beric Dondarrion already having been cast, and other characters not being necessary to show up, ofc I am sure I have missed some important characters) other characters will undoubtedly show up, but will not be nearly as important, aka Edric Storm.
As for who we are losing after the first season…
Ned, Robert, Viserys, Jory, Vardis Egen, Benjen, Khal Drogo, Mirri Miraz Dur, and Illyrio (if I recall he doesn’t really show up again in ACOK) so we have 9 people leaving, and again, I am considering this amongst important-ish characters. Obviously some are more important than others, and I do think we are adding more important characters than we are losing, but really, to look at in terms of new storylines, its only adding 1-2 more, and Stannis’ storyline definitely has to be there, so to remove Davos just wouldn’t really make sense. Losing the Greyjoys would make more sense, but seeing as how Theon has already been set up, I see that as less likely.
So really I only see minor characters being removed from season 2, much as minor characters were removed from season 1. But ofc, this is all wild speculation.
Tre SvatekQuote Reply
I really hope they don’t cut Davos. One of my favorite parts is when Stannis makes Davos his hand in ASOS, I’d love to see that moment if the series gets that far.
Arrogant BastardQuote Reply
No, I doubt it. If we get that far. Fans will be screaming to see Oberyn. And Dorne starts to play a more integral part of the current books that are out. And to see the scene between Oberyn and Gregor over Tyrion is just going to be one epic scene I dont want to see cut.
Woops Im thinking to far ahead. As for season two. How much does any Dorne character play in…
WolfheartQuote Reply
Exactly… It would IMO be criminal to lose Davos character. With a POV writing style, you can have lots of internal dialog. But in a television/film production you need actual *dialog* between people to make things clear to the viewer. And the constant Davos/Melisandre tug-of-war over Stannis will be crucial to understanding these characters. The scenes practically write themselves.
Davos role as a ‘the skeptic’ will also be important in the increasing magical elements of the series.
LarsQuote Reply
It’s going to be very difficult deciding what to cut. One of the areas I can think of is what happens to Cat, after the scene where I wanted to throw the book at the wall.
I also think it is sad that people don’t like this series because it’s in a fantasy genre. I thought it was a very tiny part and they miss out on the juicy huge story. Most of the fantasy was brilliantly done, and it took the series to a much higher level.
Kevin W.Quote Reply
I don’t think they would have to cut any major characters from the second season (obviously depending on how well the second season goes), but a lot of the secondary and tertiary characters will have to be cut or turned into extras.
Also some of these roles becoming larger in later seasons, so perhaps some of the others (probably the Greyjoys) may be kept for later on (Aeron, Victarion perhaps).
I’ve got my list down to 66 new characters although you could still cut away quite a few more and still maintain all the important figures from Season 2.
Maester Cressen
Davos Seaworth
Melisandre
Patchface (probably cut)
Maester Pylos
Shireen Baratheon
Stannis Baratheon
Rorge
Biter
Jaqen H’ghar
Ser Arys Oakheart (probably cut)
Ser Mandon Moore
Big Walder Frey
Little Walder Frey
Ser Cleos Frey (cut or extra’d)
Edmure Tully
Hoster Tully
Rickard Karstark
Ser Brynden ‘Blackfish’ Tully
Jacelyn Bywater
Salladhor Saan
Aeron Greyjoy
Asha Greyjoy
Balon Greyjoy
Pyat Pree
Xaro Xhoan Daxos
Quaithe
Eddison ‘Dolorous Edd’ Tollett (Don’t Cut !!)
Ser Amory Lorch
Podrick Payne
Lord Wyman Manderly (probs Featured Extra)
Ser Boros Blount (probably cut)
Ser Balon Swann (probably cut)
Hallyne the Pyromancer
Ser Dontos Hollard
Raff the Sweetling (Featured Extra?)
Chiswyck
Meera Reed
Jojen Reed
Brienne of Tarth
Ser Robar Royce (Extra/Featured Extra?)
Edric Storm
Cortnay Penrose
Craster
Gilly
Victarion Greyjoy (probably cut)
Dunsen (Extra?)
Polliver
The Tickler
Quhuru Mo
Weese
Pia (Extra or Cut)
Vargo Hoat
Roose Bolton
Ramsay Bolton
Dagmer Cleftjaw
Lollys Stokeworth (Extra or Cut)
Qhorin Halfhand
Shagwell
Ygritte
Sorrowful Man
Strong Belwas
Qyburn
Ser Garlan Tyrell
Margaery Tyrell
Rattleshirt
Probably biggest change here is when Catelyn travels to Renly’s host – all the named Lords are cut / turned into extras (they sort of did the same with the first season). Robett Glover and Ser Wendel Manderly may want to be kept, I am not sure. I also don’t know if Stonesnake lived either. And I am partial to Dolorous Edd, please don’t merge him with Sam – keep him and give all the other NW people lines to him!
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Jordan Healey,
Jeezus! There’s 66 new characters in Book 2??? I would have guessed 15 off the top of my head.
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
No, there’s more like 150. I removed most of them.
Also I can’t remember if Garlan or Margaery are actually seen in the second book, maybe it’s the start of the 3rd one.
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Davos is one of my favourite characters, so I really hope he isn’t cut.
Blackfish, while interesting, doesn’t have a very big role overall and could be removed completely. Most members of the BWB could be meshed together (Beric, Thoros and one Archer-Singer-yellow-coat-wearing-guy). Rorge-Biter… that would mean only 2 deaths though.
It is really hard trying to find characters I’d be willing to cut! I am glad I just get to enjoy the show :)
MelarraQuote Reply
Jordan Healey,
Wow… I’m actually pretty stunned! Would never have guessed there’s so many new characters, although I should have known (I’ve read it 3 times, after all!).
Anyways, just found this new(?) article about the HBO adaptation in the New York Times.
LexQuote Reply
Jordan Healey,
I feel like Margaery at least is, but I have a terrible memory for stuff like what went in which book of a series :P
Does Hallyne really do anything? Except show off the wildfire-making process and make a few flustered progress reports?
Melarra,
Ohh, good point. The numbers don’t add up…
JQuote Reply
That’s Season 3-4, dont even need to worry about them yet. Although I hope they don’t cut Tom O’Sevens, Lem or Anguy.
Nope, you could make him an extra too.
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Here are the leftovers from Season 1
Catelyn Tully
Robb Stark
Sansa Stark
Arya Stark
Bran Stark
Rickon Stark
Jon Snow
Theon Greyjoy
Maester Luwin
Ser Rodrik Cassel
Old Nan? (May cut her because Margaret John died)
Hodor
Osha
Greatjon Umber
Cersei Lannister
Jaime Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Tywin Lannister (I think he’s in 1-2 scenes at the end)
Kevan Lannister (AFAIK only in the Ceremony scene at the end)
Joffrey Baratheon
Myrcella Baratheon
Tommen Baratheon
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Grand Maester Pycelle
Renly Baratheon
Ser Barristan Selmy
Ser Loras Tyrell
Janos Slynt
Ilyn Payne
Ser Meryn Trant (maybe they’ll turn Ser Mandon into him, who knows)
Lancel Lannister
Gregor Clegane
Sandor Clegane
Bronn
Shae
Tobho Mott? (Don’t think he’s in it, maybe 1 scene but probably not)
Gendry
Lommy Greenhands
Hot Pie
Shagga
Jeor Mormont
Maester Aemon
Yoren
Samwell Tarly
Pypar
Grenn
Rast
Daenerys Targaryen
Ser Jorah Mormont
Doreah
Irri
Rakharo
Bowen Marsh (Unsure if he’ll be in it, most likely though)
Galbart Glover (Unsure if he’ll be in it, most likely though)
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Steve Hugh Westenra,
I don’t have a big problem with them cutting that line since that’s said at a point when Catelyn isn’t really herself. In my opinion the line truly says more about where she is at that point than it describes her relationship to Jon, which is established at several other times (and none so drastic).
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
I want to have high hopes for the show, but reading that io9 interview you just know they are going to scew it up sooner rather then later.
They display that classic eagerness regarding unnecessary changes predicated in a (faulty) belief that they themselves are superior writers. They think they can change the story for the better, but that never works out. Ever.
One thing are changes that are “forced” by various practical limitations. Another thing is “The producers just felt it worked better that way.”
Despite my feelings on this I still enjoyed the 14 min preview. I even found the altered prologue moderately okay. Was bummed about the no head-kick part. Poor decision me thinks.
The White BullshitQuote Reply
Agree completely. I think Davos is the most likely to go, I like him alot but his only real purpose is to view the Stannis storyline, which we don’t need him for in a TV series.
As for Season 2, ACOK, I expect we will see many new scenes about Robb in the west and Jamie also, because they are main characters and you can’t remove them from several episodes in a TV series like you could in a book
Ryan EQuote Reply
I found this kind of funny:
Anyone care to tell them that Peter Jackson DID spend 10+ hours with the LotR characters? >:D
Michael JarantillaQuote Reply
See, I completely disagree with that. D&D are very careful to not take unnecessary creative license. And GRRM himself has said he knows how TV has to work and has put all his trust in them. Maybe I’m an extreme idealist, but if someone as conservative about his creation as GRRM is all right with the decisions they’re making, I trust them too. Completely.
An example: We’ve seen that Donal Noye’s lines have been given to Tyrion at the wall, giving Jon his reality check about his training. I don’t think this is a bad decision, but was likely a hard decision. TV paces so differently from the books. I think this will work just fine.
For the second season, I think the Blackfish is gone. Which breaks my heart… he’s one of my favorites. But I can see it, and I can be ok with that. I’m less inclined to be ok with cutting Davos, since he’s so important as a voice of common sense, and plays a vital role in the death of Cortnay Penrose. I can see some of the Qarth people cut. As much as I hate to think it, I can also see Strong Belwas cut. (lawlz, see what I did there?) But I trust D&D. I have to. I think the story will remain intact, just the presentation will differ slightly.
Becky WilsonQuote Reply
I’m with those that expect Davos to perhaps being the first POV character that is cut and I’m not particularly bothered by it. Davos is a good character but is primarily just a way to show us what’s happening around Stannis in a more special way than following him directly. But removing Davos (or lowering his status) we not only get one less primary character, we also remove several minor character that are somewhat important to him but not really to anyone else.
Tywin's BastardQuote Reply
A comment on the change of Cat’s inclinations:
Reading the “we just think it works better” can be jarring. They didn’t elaborate on it, but I tihnk I see where they are coming from, and approve of the change: in the course of one and a half episodes, Cat would change her mind about Ned levaing a couple of times. With so little time to establish her motivations and personality, that could easily seem quite ridiculous. It works well in the books since we see her thought process do directly, over many many pages.
Hear Me RoarQuote Reply
I don’t think it will be Davos, especially since D&D have already said that he is one of their favorite characters (with Jaqen if i remember correctly) for season 2.
Plus they say: Already, they’ve had to cut or combine some minor characters in the first book, but in the second season they might actually have to cut some comparatively major characters just to avoid having a cast of thousands.
Who was cut in the first season Noye? so compared to him alot of characters may look “major”.
Oi!Quote Reply
I’m pretty sure that the POV characters are safe. The secondary characters – like Gregor’s men, the Bloody Mummers, BwB, Northern lords, Ironborn, wildlings and such will probably be condensed into one or two characters with lots of nameless extras around …
Alexander DubrovskyQuote Reply
D&D have said that the character they are most looking forward to adapting is Davos, so until stated otherwise I take that they are planning on having him in season 2.
NickQuote Reply
Hear Me Roar,
Hmm, I haven’t thought about it this way. I guess it makes sense. Still a bit disappointed about losing some of Cat’s strength in the first few eps; it was much more interesting and novel in the book that Ned was the one hesitating, compared to the cliché of the wife-who-doesn’t-want-him-to-do-his-thing. (I don’t want to say wet blanket, because even this way, Cat is definitely not that.)
As for cutting “major” characters, I really don’t think they will cut Davos. For one, D&D mentioned that he is one of their favourite characters. Yes, he doesn’t have much to do in the second season, but he is a crucial counterpoint to Melisandre, and I think Stannis would need him as his conscience in the show, too, and to make his character’s moral traits more definite, interesting and complex (I’m thinking of Davos’s bag of bones – that sentencing in itself tells everything we need to know about Stannis).
As much as I love the Blackfish, I agree with previous comments: I think he’s gone. We can probably lose some of the Greyjoys. And (while I join the collective NOO shriek) Dolorous Edd can probable be incorporated into Sam – something, if I remember correctly, FaBio pondered at the WiC podcast.
I hope they’ll keep Jojen and Meera. (They could maybe, somehow, replace them with Osha.)
GainesQuote Reply
Victarion can’t be cut because of where he’s heading in DwD. Some of the Iron Islands people, definitely. I’m hoping Asha won’t go because we’d miss the hilarity of the Esgred scene. It also really brings home the way Theon is seen as a weakling by his own people when a young woman – in quite a gendered culture – is given preference over him for brutal piracy.
EleanorQuote Reply
You know, the more I think about it I really can’t see them cutting Davos. To say that he’s there just to observe Stannis is quite unfair. He really is the only person close to Stannis who acts as the Kings conscience. Are they really going to have no one to act as a counterbablance with Melisandre while she’s trying to steer him down a more sorcerous path? Also, who else is going to convince Stannis to head to the Wall in season 3/4?
SnarkQuote Reply
Also, it was interesting in the io9 interview that D&D singled out Robb being on the back burner in season two. Then what about Jaime? He has a single scene at the end of the book, and if I’m not mistaken, that’s all. Maybe they can show his earlier escape attempt… but other than that? Not much stuff to expand. If Nikolaj Coster-Waldau will make as much an impact on viewers as I’m sure he will, then they won’t want to lose him for pretty big chunks of the season. I’m very curious how they will tackle this particular difficulty. (Maybe by incorporating some of his SoS chapters? But wouldn’t it compress the timeline in the Catelyn/Brienne subplot too much? Would it work?)
GainesQuote Reply
I hope that GRRM has plans for the Blackfish to be important later on, it would be a shame if he were cut.
I think Victarion and the Damphair will probably both be put off until a future series. Davos I imagine will stay, but he may not need a big name actor. A lot of roles will be played by extras- Edric Storm needs to exist, but he doesn’t necessarily need to talk much, similar can be said for Big Walder and Little Walder. I hope Dolorous Edd stays!
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Clash of kings major character cut?
My guess is: Davos will appear season 3.
Raúl LapuenteQuote Reply
There is a new interview with Kit Harington on youtube. – This time the camera is in the right position. ;-)
AbyssQuote Reply
Davos won’t be cut.
Blackfish probably will be (or merged with Edmure or a slightly more hale Hoster) unless he does more in future books than he has so far.
I would have thought a Greyjoy would be cut but the Family tree on the tie in website did list all of them (The Blackfish was missing from the Tully tree though).
Ser Amory Lorch will be replaced by Gregor (most of whose men will be extras).
The Reeds could be combined into One person.
Most Freys will be background Extras (the two Walders will probably be cut).
Qhorin Halfhand will be the only named Ranger who goes scouting in the Mountains.
Quaithe is probably cut.
As to things like Jaime not appearing too much I do think his release would be brought forward along with other things like the attack on the Fist of the First Men
If they can get 12 episodes for ACoK and move a few ASoS events into Season 2 then they may be able to tell AsoS in 12/13 episodes as well.
MormegilQuote Reply
Mormegil,
some of those are like nails on a chalkboard
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
I remember something about D&D looking forward to casting Stannis, Melisandre and Davos, so I guess they’re still in. The Blackfish could possibly go, transferring his Robb’s right-hand-man stuff to the Greatjon. I don’t think you can loose Roose as House Bolton has other storylines going on as well in the North and they have a wide-ranging impact (as tempting as it probably is to drop them and move their main storyline contribution in Book 3 to the Freys alone).
Amory Lorch is probably disposable. I’d look for characters of that level to being dropped. I also don’t see the missing Lannister story (Tyrek?) making it in and we may also lose Lollys and the Stokeworths, despite their storyline in Book 4.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Does that Interview confirm R+L=J?
Or did D+D guess Ned + Wylla or one of the other combinations?
MormegilQuote Reply
All of these are very resonable, acctually. If that is it, I think we will be good.
As much as I like the Blackfish, his role can easily be merged with someone else, even though the Tullys will come of a as a rather incompetent lot without Brynden.
I’m a bit scared that they might cut the Boltons, but I hope not. House Bolton is awesome, and they are in many ways more integral to the actual story than people like Davos Seaworth. I think the POV style sometimes blinds us to who are actually driving the plot in the novels.
Some minor characters also should not be cut, I am thinking people like Randyll Tarly, who should be in just to flesh out (heh) Sam’s character a bit.
SkyweirQuote Reply
Enteril,
I could see that, as the Catelyn they’ve cast is about the age of the Blackfish anyways. If the Blackfish were twenty-or-so years senior to Fairley, he wouldn’t make for much of a crafty action hero – unless his wheelchair had rocket-launchers. Imho, Edmure becomes the Blackfish, remains her younger bro. Better chip on the shoulder too, because that’s your SISTER they’re threatening, not just your niece.
imho Hoster Tully will be cut. Davos too, or Davos will be combined with the Maester @ Dragonstone. Hopefully not the dead one. Maybe Melissandre become Stannis’ love interest…
Franny BeeQuote Reply
I can see why the producers might keep a character beyond their expiration date.
For instance, what happens if the producers find they need to combine the book characters A and B together under the name of character A? Especially if character A is scheduled to die early season two, but character B’s story line doesn’t resolve until season four or so. You end up with a character that doesn’t die when they do in the book.
There are a ton of characters that can be cut or combined in season two. Best gird your loins now because it won’t be pretty…
Dale RippkeQuote Reply
Mormegil,
It seems more likely to me that they guessed the first than the second. If they didn’t guess that they are very clever since most things point in one direction when you’ve dug into the details.
But perhaps everything will come to a twist when we learn that Ned was, in his youth, often drunk on elderberry wine…
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
-I’d hate to lose Lollys Stokeworth if only because of what happens with Bronn. You can certainly cut down on her featured-time though.
-The thought of cutting Dolorous Edd hurts my soul to the core.
-I could deal with a “Jojeera Reed.”
-Merging Edmure and the Blackfish could work, although how would they deal with the fact that Edmure is rather incompetent and the Blackfish is a great tactician? I’m thinking specifically of Robb’s orders to defend Riverrun…
-You can lose Patchface, maybe even Shireen. If they keep her, it’ll be as a featured extra.
-Lorch will be replaced with Gregor.
-Rorge and Biter are cuttable, or you can merge them.
-Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling…I want them kept, because we need to see Arya’s prayers….you could maybe lose one, though, or merge them. What a hateful idea though.
-Any number of unmemorable lords (Manderlay) could be lost and I probably wouldn’t even know it…
-Salladhor Saan, cut him without much negative impact.
-They could find a way to give some of the more villainous Kingsguard members’ lines to just one or two of them. Merging Trant and Moore is an easy change.
ZackQuote Reply
I respectfully disagree. A guy called “the Onion Knight” for being an illiterate onion smuggler who was knighted for his service but had is fingers chopped off for his sins who goes around wearing his amputated fingers around his neck as a charm who learns to read so he can warn Stannis about the threat in the north *whew* is just too developed and entertaining to cut. He’s got 3 chapters in ACOK but 6 in ASOS. No way he’s cut.
Maybe. But I think it’s more likely she gets it on with Jon Snow (perhaps both). I base this on the scene at the end of what I assume is ADWD: Jon I (pre-released excerpt) http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html ), when she says “Then you know nothing, Jon Snow.” I predict she continues to seduce him.
BTW I assume we have all read the 4 pre-released excerpts of ADWD. Danerys I was at then end of AFFC but there are 3 others on the web:
Jon: http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
Tyrion: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/chapter.html
Reek(?): http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000194603
Mike ChairQuote Reply
I think that quite a lot of the minor characters people are talking about, such as the Stokeworths, Shireen, Patch, the BWB, could easily be featured extras. Audition ‘em, get ones that can pull their weight, and that way, they’re out and about in the background til they’re needed, yet don’t make a mess of any lines given. I remember the shoot of Titanic had a group of core extras that they kept on for the entire shoot to play the passengers, you could do something similar for the nobles of King’s Landing, the Freys etc. etc. That way you have the various characters out and about but aren’t paying through the nose for actors for all of them.
All that said, I’d rather lose minor characters than see other ones (such as Blackfish and Edmure) merged or cut altogether. I understand characters are going to have to go, but I’d rather see the very minor ones go than lose some of the more prominent ones.
Samantha HirstQuote Reply
The no head kick makes complete sense in the context of what a non-reader knows up to that point. They haven’t even given Theon’s name, much less his role or any of his background. So to a non-reader having him kick the head would totally counteract the seriousness and honor/duty feeling of the scene. When viewers see Theon at that point they would assume he is part of the Stark family or at least their house, kicking the head and Ned doesn’t reproach him for doing it.
The main thing with the article is we don’t know what a “major” character means. Blackfish and other characters of his level who play important parts, but only a hand full of scenes per book seem most likely. I imagine the biggest challenge is keeping an actor who plays a big part in a particular scene, but then isn’t seen for half a season or more, since the actor needs more consistent work than that. So I think looking at characters who fit that category gives likely candidates to be cut or merged with other characters who disappear for long gaps.
TCQuote Reply
I like that D&D are talking about expanding the characters. I think it’s ok to stray from the books as long as the over all story isn’t changed too much. Spending time with Robb while he’s out in the west would be a great chance for the show to expand the lore of the books.
The ReaderQuote Reply
I love Mormegiel’s idea of combining Ser Amory with the Mountain. At least I am ok with it. In fact, it might make for some very memorable scenes with Maisie and Conan.
As for the BwoB. Its true that Beric will be around. Thoros (or at least a guy in red with a flaming sword) would make for excellent eyecandy. The others though like Lem and Anguy might be in jeopardy of getting cut or scaled back into extra-hood. As mentioned before, if this has to happen I truly hope Tom escapes the edit-axe.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
And they could expand Jaime’s role in a similar way prior to his capture.
TCQuote Reply
I’m actually really, really hoping that D&D give us some more time with the Tyrells. I always thought — shit, spoiler tags are broken — I always thought ~the character who dies very abruptly in aCoK~ could have had a death even more jaw-dropping then ARGH ~the character who dies not so abruptly, but still shocked must of us, at the end of aGoT~ if they’d had more time onscreen. Giving us time with that character and their love interest and their dream for Westeros and their marriage and everything … could have been the best death in the series.
I hope the HBO version sees the potential there and spends some more time with that character and that situation. I’d accept a lot of cuts other places for the chance to really experience that arc. I can always go to the books for the stuff that was cut, after all, but there’s terribly little Tyrell stuff actually in the text …
Stupid POV limitations.
RoseQuote Reply
Zack,
I think we can get by without Lollys until AFFC if needed. Much like the BWoB, I fear that some of Gregor’s men might be up for extracution (hey! Did I just coin a new term?). Imo, the Tickler would be the most likely to escape. I have a hard time thinking the Blackfish would be merged with Edmure. The scene with them by the river is just so strong (and would translate very well to TV) that I would really hate to lose it. Plus, according to GRRM, we know that they were at least planning to include BF in season 2. The Riverrun crew is pretty sparse as it is. I think we need to keep the two most prominent figures there.I’d be careful about Patchface and Shireen. I’ve always thought that GRRM has something more in store for these two down the line.
I really don’t envy D&D and their upcoming casting decisions.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
OT….Thanks to the Rabbit_01 for bringing attention to another couple of positiVE reviews..this time from the Toronto Star tv reviewer Rob Salem apparently loved the series (he has not read the books) and Malene Arpe (entertainment blog for the star) also loved it, though she says the first ep had her a little worried about how good it would be…
coltaine777Quote Reply
Rose,
Totally with you on the more time for the Tyrells comment.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
Arrogant Bastard,
I thought I saw in an interview somewhere that Davos is one of D&D’s favorite characters.
MarkQuote Reply
Hmm let me ask. If (when) we get the season two announcement, what are the chances we will get a larger budget and/or more episodes? With season one, I felt that HBO was cautiously committed to the show. It seemed like they wanted to support the show, but didn’t want to extravangantly open the purestrings. With season two, I hope they can realise that to give the expanding story the attention it deserves, that they will be best serving their show by becoming a little bit more liberal. I’m not expecting huge changes. but it would be nice to know that the network is securely behind the show. Maybe they can dosome adjusting once the show comes out if the subscriptions go up significantly?
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
Correct me if I’m wrong, but does the Bwob show up at all in ACOK? I have no problem with them cutting or merging Rorge and Biter as long as they keep Jaqen H’gar. I noticed Benioff in an interview said about Jaqen “He doesn’t really show up this season, but he’ll be a big player next season”. Could this mean the part has already been cast and Jaqen makes a short cameo at the end of season 1, since we do know arya’s story is forwarded a little with the additions of Hot Pie adn Lommy.
I think the Stokeworths can be gotten rid of entirely, they add pretty much nothing and are hardly in the books at all. In ASOS Bronn can just marry some random lady instead. In regards to the Blackfish, I can see them cutting or merging his character since he doesn’t appear much and they would have to hire a strong actor for his role. The whole Hornwood Bastard of Bolton situation I think would be trimmed, I found it confusing the first time I read the book and in a tv series with so much else going on I don’t know how they can keep it.
Arrogant BastardQuote Reply
Mark,
When it comes to extracutions (yeah I’m going with it), I really hope that characters like Davos, Edmure ad the Blackfish will be included. Davos and the BF especally are very important to the stories of the main characters. I think some of the characters more likely to meet the axe are the me too characters. In places where we have a ton of smaller characters, its easier to lose or combine some names. If we only see Raff in the background I think it will be more ikely accepted because we will still have enough going on in Harrenhal to not miss him too much. Davos is too important tohis area of the story to lose. Heck, without him we wouldn’t even see Dragonstone in GRRM’s book. Plus if he were cut, Stannis would be left talking to alot of open air. Combining him into Mel is at least possible I guess, but in a character-driven show, we lose a very interesting tension triangle if we do.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
This.
Times a thousand.
They confuse their admittedly intense involvement of months with the author’s 24/7 commitment of years, beginning to equate the two. They don’t see the thousand rewrites of a line of dialogue and think a brainstorming session between the script supervisor and a one-season contract writer is a viable substitute. They lean toward “energy” and “visual impact” and away from complexity and subtlety.
If they could be novelists they would have been. They can’t and aren’t.
DH87Quote Reply
And re: “unneccessary changes?” Some of us like changes. I love changes. If I wanted the same experience as the books, I’d read the books. What’s the point of an adaptation if you’re not going to change things? Is the book not good enough as a book? You lose George’s amazing narrative flow when you translate to screen, so I damn well hope they’re adding stuff to make that worthwhile.
RoseQuote Reply
“Adaptation” in a literary sense means translation from one medium to another, not change for change’s sake.
Why not have Scarlett O’Hara fall in love with Big Sam, the foreman at Tara Plantation, and have Rhett Butler date Aunt Pittipat? Why not have the Civil War take place among the provinces of Canada?
Why not buy the rights to some other vehicle if you don’t like the one you are dealing with?
Why not write fan fiction so you can take copyrighted characters and populate your own world of fantasy…..oh.
Someone already thought of that.
DH87Quote Reply
DH87,
Um, actually they are novelists, both Benioff and Weiss have written novels.
Arrogant BastardQuote Reply
I don’t think that cutting Davos is really an option for D&D. He may be less prominent as a POV character but he is Stannis’s emotional core, Davos keeps him from always acting with the morality and tact of a robot. I think it’s much more likely that characters will be merged like, say, Gregor would be responsible for Ser Amory Lorch’s actions in the show. Also there are lots of characters in ACoK that, for the purpose of the series, could be seen as extraneous, and could either be featured as extras or removed altogether. I think the important thing, and the hardest part about writing the script, is that they manage to keep the amount of characters/overall cost of actors down in order to keep the show going and make it look as good as season 1 looks already while at the same time staying true to the nature of the books. No easy task to be sure, but from what we’ve seen I can say I trust D&D to figure it out.
And there will be minor plot changes. That is inevitable.
The Young WolfQuote Reply
You didn’t answer my actual question, DH87. What’s the point of an adaptation if it’s a perfect retelling of the book?
That, to me, is the insult to the book. A book isn’t good enough? It has to be live action tv/film, like everything else, to reach its true potential? Literature needs to be “improved” by being filmed?
When changes are made, the adaptation had value. The translators had something that they wanted to see from the text and an inspiration and creative drive to make it.
When none are made, what’s the value?
RoseQuote Reply
DH87,
“If they could be novelists they would have been. They can’t and aren’t.”
Kind of a hilarious statement, since both Weiss and Benioff ARE novelists.
PranksterQuote Reply
Arrogant Bastard,
By the end of that little rant, I was thinking more of True Blood’s Alan Ball than D&D and screenwriters in general, but I appreciate the correction nonetheless. I don’t know how successful D&D have been, but the fact that they’ve published a novel at all is reassuring.
DH87Quote Reply
Umm, yeah. They are novelists and I believe pretty well regarded although I’ve never read their works.
CountQuote Reply
Good question.
There are novelistic conventions that cannot be translated successfully to the film medium—internal monologues are a perfect example. Listening to an actor recite long internal monologues with or without visual context becomes an unsatisfactory visual experience. Recasting such devices is a big enough challenge to a screenwriter. Paring down a cast, in the case of ASoIaF, is a logistical necessity given the marketplace and other posters have persuasively argued how difficult that alone will be. Eliminating Scarlett O’Hara’s first two children from the film version of Gone with the Wind was so unimportant in terms of the storytelling that probably 7 out of l0 readers of the book don’t remember that she had other kids. It was a necessary but minor change for the film adaptation.
Keeping Robb Stark alive for seven seasons because his character is popular or having Scarlett O’Hara run off with the overseer—-thoses are not the surprises we want.
EDT to add: in my comment above, I meant to say “I was thinking of True Blood’s Alan Ball and screenwriters in general.”
DH87Quote Reply
In terms of who’s gone, bear in mind it’s possible to cut a character from S2 but have them show up later. For instance, it’s entirely possible Asha won’t be in S2, but she seems too important to later events to be cut completely.
I predict Stannis’s family and Patchface will be cut (not neccessarily gone entirely, but kept offscreen or extra’d). By the way, does anyone know what’s up with Patchface? Martin introduces him like he’s going to be important, but then he’s an afterthought to the story.
Another likely cut: all three of Pyat Pree, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and Quaithe. MAYBE Daxos gets kept just to give Dany someone to stay with in Qarth, but even then he can be reduced to a very minor figure. Pree’s more or less uneccessary, and Quaithe may end up being important, but her role can be put off until some later season. If they need to set up her connection to Dany, maybe she can just have a vision of shadow and flame or something.
Incidentally, people are writing off Jaime in S2, but I actually think there’s a lot you can do with him, even when he’s in captivity. There’s the escape attempt, but there’s also the fact that he has to bond with Catelyn after a fashion. I can easily see that happening over the course of a season rather than being boiled down to a single scene.
Anyway, bear in mind that B & W are sort of spitballing in terms of needed cuts–I don’t think they’ve sat down and made any decisions yet. As someone pointed out above, I actually wouldn’t be that surprised if they didn’t have to cut as many as they thought, given that they lose a lot of characters in S1 including two of the priciest actors, Bean and Addy–and it’s possible Momoa might be somewhat in demand these days, too.
PranksterQuote Reply
DH87,
That depends on the changes in my opinion. They should of course try to stay faithful to what the source material is about but they also need to make it their own in some ways. If they don’t make it their own they aren’t artists, they are just copycats and it’s like recording a cover of a song and just play it like the original artist does. That has little worth as a work of art.
Tywin's BastardQuote Reply
Merging the Blackfish and Edmure? I don’t see that working, they’re too different as characters. It would be essentially cutting both and introducing someone new in their stead. Of course that may happen, though I would be very sad to see it.
I don’t think ageing up the characters prevents the Blackfish fulfilling his role as in the books. There might be a significant age gap between Hoster and Brynden. Hoster could have been married off as a young teenager. There are plenty of people who stay very active well into their 60s and even 70s- and Brynden may be younger, he might only be 10 years older than Catelyn (If Joffrey and Sansa were to marry as soon as she is physically old enough, and she fell pregnant quickly, Rickon and Tommen would only be 6-10 years older than that child I apologise to everyone cringing at the thought of Sansa actually marrying Joffrey and having his child!), so I don’t see it as an issue at all.
Having Gregor take Lorch’s role is a good idea though. I think Rorge and Biter need to remain separate, even if one of them is just an extra, otherwise Arya can only request two deaths.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Just to continue that thought, there probably have been more successful novelists turned screenwriters than vice versa. Although F. Scott Fitzgerald was the most famous failure, Jessamyn West (The Big Country, her own Friendly Persuasion), William Goldman (The Princess Bride), Harold Pinter (although a poet, not a novelist) and the immortal Robert E. Sherwood (a playwright and a biographer) demonstrate that brilliant screenwriting can create a work as powerful and nuanced as any novel. The Best Years of Our Lives remains the most brilliant screen adaptation, I believe, and it was adapted from a narrative poem.
DH87Quote Reply
You know I think they have been committed financially… I do agree though, that they might have to open up the purse strings even more to bring season 2/3 to life…they gotta give those battles justice..if it means spending 2/3/4 million to film just some of those battle scenes they should do it….it can’t be done Rome style….go big or go home I say…but it ain’t my money :)…and yes I am paying for HBO Canada…
coltaine777Quote Reply
Well, I guess I’d say that by changing the medium, they are undertaking the most drastic change in artistic “ownership.” Art is first and foremost a way of seeing: if Picasso takes a bicycle saddle and handlebar and creates “Head of a Bull” (1943), the genius involved is not in the craft but in the way of seeing, the visual presentation of the concept. If DH87 takes a milk can, welds a mop handle to it, and calls it “Body of a Goat,” it is probably not going to end up in the Guggenheim Museum.
D&D have an enormous task. They seem to understand they need to use a scalpel, not a meat ax to complete it. That’s why brain surgeons get the big bucks, not butchers.
DH87Quote Reply
DH87,
I don’t think we differ much in opinion since I don’t want to see any significant changes in the core of Martin’s work. I gladly accept when they do creative interpretations of things like the throne room of the Eyrie though. That doesn’t mean that I will like everything but as long as it’s creativity that’s combined with faithfulness I’m interested in the process.
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
coltaine777,
You know, I actually think the big battles in aCoK and aSoS might not be as expensive to film as you might think. The battle on the harbour outside King’s Landing takes place at night, on water, in the midst of smoke and fire, which would allow them to suggest a lot with a little and not require them to show LOTR-style vast armies. Watch the climactic scene of “Gangs of New York” to get a sense of what I’m talking about. Smoke is easy on the budget!
The climactic battle of aSoS is more elaborate, but even there it takes place mostly within a small, cramped tunnel, so there are ways they could keep the most expensive stuff off-screen.
PranksterQuote Reply
Prankster,
I hear ya…but my point is I want to see it (the battles) not something suggested off screen… I think it is a silly dream lol… but I’d love to see it…and I know George warned us not to expect LOTR type battle scenes…but maybe if this is a huge hit HBO will say “let’s go for it”…150m a season budget would be nice :)…I’ll buy lots of dvd’s…
coltaine777Quote Reply
Tywin’s Bastard,
Yes, I think so, too.
The battle scene logistics, as described in the parallel discussion going on here, require D&D’s total attention and creative problem solving, not the dialog or character development. D&D have had the latter handed to them on a silver platter, so they should concentrate on the cinematic and budgetary challenges presented in Martin’s work. The problem is, those are difficult and not always rewarding tasks, and showrunners tend to avoid them, instead mucking with the things that are more fun and “rewarding” because there’s no one to stop them from doing so. Their egos can pretty much run away with them. Again, True Blood is a perfect example. Ball has created a mess that the critics are now hooting at and the audience won’t be far behind. Strip away (and I use that term advisedly) Skarsgard and the rest of the eye candy and you now have nothing more than a glorified soap opera, complete with campy voodoo dream sequences, laughable orgies, clueless new characters, aimless side plots, and a bloated cast.
DH87Quote Reply
Just to be absolutely clear, I don’t want folks thinking I was suggesting HBO has been stingy. I feel they’ve been quite the contrary. What’s more, I believe their cautious approach early on is both smart and warranted. Its also likely that not having a monster budjet only forces them to focus all the more on interpersonal relationships between the characters which is always the more important thing as far as I am concerned.
Lord Ned’s HeadQuote Reply
The casting debate is an impossible circle to square really. We all have our favourite characters that we’d love to see brought to screen but equally, all but the most fanatical of us accept that cuts, changes and mergings of roles have to be made to get the story on to the screen on time and in budget.
To me, the most important consideration is that the characters that remain are relevant to the overarching narrative arc of the 7 book story as a whole and I actually think that on this point, the production team have not done too well so far. Firstly I was sad that the Tullys have been cut from Season 1, since they do have an ongoing role in later books.
Secondly I was surprised that so much effort has been invested in apparently irrelevant dead-end characters like Khal Drogo and Viserys, even though I am hugely impressed by the results. If I were making the show then I’d have have been inclined to keep the Dany plotline offscreen for Season one, communicating developments through rumours reported at Council meetings and introduced her with the GOT dragon scene at the start of season two.
It’s been suggested don’t cut characters but do them with unknown actors instead of ‘names’. I know little about production logistics, but I’d guess it’s not as simple as that – every new character that is added doubtless creates a cost overhead in all sorts of ways that those of us outside the industry have probably never thought about.
I’m halfway through a re-read of ACOK at the moment, so I started to think, who could you leave out – well there are loads of bannermen who you could make anonymous and wouldn’t have to name and loads of minor thugs; Chiswyck, Weese and Polliver are virtually the only ones of the Harrenhal thugs who have plot significance. Of the larger characters Asha has been mentioned – personally I would be so sorry to lose that long scene with her and Theon which is marvellous, but I could understand why the production team might do a Tully on her. Others whose days might be numbered – Selyse, Smallwood, Cleftjaw, Damphair, Penrose, Craster. Gosh I hope they don’t cut the Reeds!
Slightly OT – I don’t know if this has been mentioned before – I don’t read every single comment here – but it strikes me that if GOT is a huge success we are going to get that phenomenon of big name actors cutting their fees and lobbying for parts or cameos in future seasons. If that happens, then that blows some of the casting options wide open!! Kate Beckinsale for Asha, anyone??
Nick LarterQuote Reply
SHRIEK!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, from a fangirl’s point of view: you people who at least like the Blackfish, speak up, don’t be negative! If HBO sees we’ve given up on him, they won’t be encouraged to keep him. (Gotta work on a banner or something…)
I can think of a thousand uses for the Blackfish (get your mind out of the gutter). There’s a reason why he’s a rather popular character: he stands out, he’s picturesque. He would be one more way for GOT to distance itself from your usual fantasy show. The Blackfish breaks one more trope, the wise old uncle who counsels the hero/heroine; THIS wise old uncle kicks ass and takes names, messes up with people’s minds (Jaime), swims under portcullises and follows an alternative lifestyle, whatever it is.
I can hear some critics say of S2, Ep1: “Oh, what a bore, but that Blackfish was interesting.” I’m not saying he can save the series, anymore than those ignorant critics in the post below can sink it, but he could make at least a little difference.
This is a very important point. As with Davos and other fan favourites, we can argue and hope and fear and shriek all we want, but it all rests with GRRM’s plans. If the BF is going to be important in ADWD or later, probably he’s in. If he’s not, then his position is shakier (but then again, why have him escape Riverrun otherwise?) Same for Davos: if they don’t cast him for S2, it means he’s really dead in AFFC, and in this case GRRM’s style really took a plunge. You just don’t kill important characters off-screen.
Of course Brynden is “officially” only 5 years younger than Hoster, but we’ve already known of bigger changes in S1. Also, my great-aunt is only 5 years older than my mom, being the youngest of Grandma’s sisters.
But even if the age difference between Brynden and Cat stays the same, remember that Cat is supposed to be 35ish in a harsh world. There’s no Westerosi birth certificate that says she and Ned are their players’ age. Take a character like Barristan: he looks definitely older than Cat-Fairley, but he’s a badass warrior, and rather hot too.
Oh yeah, I was going to apologize for having this thing for older men, but this is another nice point the series could make: older men and women CAN be hot! Down with ageism.
Your first point is interesting, but I always saw it the other way around (as I always do); Brynden loves Cat as a daughter even though she’s not, she’s not even a sister, she’s a niece – and yet she’s Family. I find this detail very Tullyesque. If Cat were Brynden’s sister, or the sister of Brydmure/Edmynden (I hope I haven’t given HBO ideas!), it would be, I don’t know, too easy. It’s hard to explain, hope I got the point across.
As for Hoster, I know that GRRM at least mentioned him in one of the specials. (“Other Houses”?) This can mean nothing, he might just be mentioned as Cat’s father in the TV series, just like Arathorn was never seen in LOTR (also because he was already dead). And yet the mention struck me; they are trying to keep it as simple as possible, and GRRM throws in yet another name?
Mind you, if I have to choose between Hoster and Brynden there’s no contest, but I think Hoster is rather important to Cat’s psychology. She’s a mother, almost archetypally, but she’s also a daughter, and I believe she would like to enjoy this role longer in these times of difficulty. Instead, when Hoster dies, she’s utterly alone. Yes, she has Brynden to counsel her, but loose-cannon Brynden is not exactly a father figure. Also, the funeral is an incredible scene.
Blackfish BluesQuote Reply
Well, personally, I’d rather watch Zeffirelli’s Romeo and Juliet than Luhrman’s abortion of an adaptation. The beauty and worth of staying faithful is putting visuals and music to beloved words. Not that such an approach is necessarily better than reading the words on a page, but reading Shakespeare or seeing a good adaptation are both worthwhile ways to spend some time.
Now, having said that, Akira Kurosawa’s Throne of Blood is a brilliant, unforgettable take on Macbeth, but transplanted to feudal Japan. I’m not against changing key components of a story per se, but it’s a case-by-case basis.
To sum up: I think it’s quite silly to attempt to make the case that a faithful adaptation is generally going to be superior to, or more worthy of one’s time than an unfaithful one.
ZackQuote Reply
Exactly. That scene would completely change the a new viewer’s first impressions of the Starks, as they won’t know Theon or his backstory.
Ryan EQuote Reply
DH87,
I doubt you will get people as obviously talented and creative as D&D to become glorified transcribers and budget analysts. They are in this to create something of their own. The adaptation of a major book is it’s own entity and the showrunners vision will be a large part of the finished product, as it has to be.
SkyweirQuote Reply
DH87,
Also, “if they could be novelists, they would be”…?
Really? Because being novelists is the ultimate achivement and all people should struggle to become one? All other creative endevours are less than the mighty novelist?
I can think of a few hundred things I would rather be than a novelist, so I don’t really count the fact that I haven’t written a novel as a personal failure. My guess is that D&D feel much the same about this.
But because they are not novelists, their opinion is of course useless, and they should not deign to make changes when transferring a story to a script (not a novel, mind you)?
Fan arrogance is loathesome, it reminds me of myself during the LoTR adaptation. What a bunch of arrogant brats we were.
SkyweirQuote Reply
Blackfish Blues,
Cross fingers that he appears in Dance!
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Again: Benioff and Weiss ARE NOVELISTS. Benioff wrote The 25th Hour (both the book and the movie).
But yes, there’s a whiff of fanboy extremism going on here. I remember the run-up to LOTR; the suggestion that Peter Jackson might possibly alter a word of Tolkien’s perfect, untouchable prose was treated as inherently bad. You can argue about the finished product, but the idea that Jackson didn’t make some smart changes in adapting to the screen is silly. (Personally, blasphemer that I am, I think Jackson actually made some changes that improved the story beyond making an effective adaptation. Of course, he muffed a few things as well. C’est la vie.)
This whole discussion was prompted by how practical necessities–in this case, not having the casting budget (or presumably time) to feature all of the characters, and yet we’re still hearing about B & W’s “arrogance” in making changes? These things tend to snowball, in case you hadn’t noticed. Fewer characters will mean alterations to the plot. Likewise, the lack of internal monologues will change the tone and our sympathies towards certain characters (as mentioned, Davos is likely to come off as a far less significant character, whereas Robb is likely to become far more so). I’m going to court controversy here and say I think cutting “that line” from Catelyn to Jon is a smart move–without her internal monologue, Cat is likely to come off as hateful and unsympathetic if she’s too harsh to Jon. And as has been said–a glance can convey so much on film.
Quite frankly, I hope B & W hack down the dialogue to a bare minimum. When you have actors reading these lines, it’s so much less necessary to spell everything out. This is exactly the kind of change that has to be made in the transfer from book to screen.
PranksterQuote Reply
Looking at that list, the answer is “Extra-ing” most of them. Others can easily be combined.
The Obvious Needs
Stannis Baratheon
Melisandre
Edmure Tully
Rickard Karstark
Aeron Greyjoy
Asha Greyjoy
Balon Greyjoy
Podrick Payne
Brienne of Tarth
Either Meera or Jojen. Both would be better, but I’d go with Meera.
KGQuote Reply
Disclaimer: I am a novelist. :)
When I said if they could be novelists, they would be, I did so in the context of the writing of fiction. The novel is, second to poetry, the literary form most influential in the assessment of a writer’s place in the pantheon. Certainly if you are not a writer of fiction, there are probably more than a few hundred things you’d rather be.
Since D&D are novelists, no doubt they understand the effort, discipline, and imagination necessary to create and sustain a world; plot action for a panoply of characters; craft dialogue that not only advances the plot but also serves as a window into characters’ motivations; and master place, continuity, flow, and the element of surprise. There is a reason why the Nobel Prize for Literature is awarded to poets and novelists more often than to dramatists, writers of nonfiction, or orators. JMHO.
And then, of course, there’s always Shakespeare.
DH87Quote Reply
The novelist Nora Roberts (who has optioned dozens of her books for film adaptation) says that no matter what filmmakers promise in terms of adhering to the original material, they always do what they want anyway once the contract is signed.
That is simply the nature of the contractual relationship. The novelist makes the choice to hands over his work, cash the check and hope for the best, unless a side arrangement is made for script or casting approval, etc. Everything we’ve heard has led us to believe D&D want GRRM involvement. That to all of us should be a good thing. Who knows: if Professor Tolkien had been alive, perhaps Jackson would have brought him in as an executive producer on LOTR.
DH87Quote Reply
Off-topic: Salon has posted an “essential guide” for Game of Thrones, apparently for new users.
http://www.salon.com/entertainment/tv/game_of_thrones/?story=/ent/tv/feature/2011/04/09/game_of_thrones_primer
However, the guide spoils just about every major event from the first book, and even major deaths from the whole series, so I’m not sure why its for new viewers. It’s interesting to see the show get coverage on a big site like Salon, though I’m baffled as to why the author decided to spoil everything.
Arrogant BastardQuote Reply
Maester Ivo,
Usually DVD’s some out right before the next season so it looks like you would be waiting about a year before its available.
JasonQuote Reply
KG,
Karstark isn’t -strictly- necessary. Or at least, not for more than 1 or 2 scenes. It’d be pretty easy to give his other lines to various other existing characters.
Edmure could probably be reduced as well, or put off until later seasons. The list of stuff he actually does is pretty damn short, and most of those things could be done by someone else. Obviously he’ll need to be around for the wedding, but before then there’s just not that much need for him.
KanaQuote Reply
That’s a well-written article and there are couple of spoiler warnings, so no real damage done.
Alexander DubrovskyQuote Reply
As far as Dontos goes: Remember, a large part of his role is to introduce us to Stannis, and tell us what we need to know. TV/movies and books work a lot differently this way, we’re not stuck to the Dontos 3rd person limited viewpoint, and it would indeed feel very awkward to have Dontos constantly explaining to someone else all the details we need to know about Stannis. Dontos’ other role is basically Stannis’ morality pet: Stannis seems like a dick, but we like Dontos, who likes Stannis, so we’re a bit more invested in him than we would otherwise. So he’s still important in the Stannis storylines, but not as necessary to be around all the time.
I would assume Stannis’ wife won’t show up, or only as an extra.
KanaQuote Reply
Davos ( Dontos is Petyr’s souse of a catspaw) just may prove to be more important than Stannis’ conscience and our link to Stannis..Assuming he’s still alive in Dance , he may be one of the only, if not the only rational man left in the south. He and Marwen , Sam and possibly Pylos are pretty well the only ones aware or giving any credence to what’s happening in the north. He’s already taken actions that have had game changing consequences , and they may not be his last.
obsidianQuote Reply
Kana,
Fair enough :)
KGQuote Reply
From the io9 piece (emphasis added):
If intended, this paragraph is very funny. Paraphrasing Tolkien, the only correct English plural of dwarf is dwarfs, and the adjective is dwarfish. Tolkien invented the usage “dwarves” specifically for his race, which is indeed bearded. But Tyrion is not a dwarf in that sense — he is merely a small human. However, I suspect that the “dwarves” in the quote is merely a misspelling.
LiorQuote Reply
Here’s my take on new characters for season 2:
characters that were supposed to appear in season 1, but don’t –
Hoster Tully
Edmure Tully
Blackfish (might be combined w. Edmure)
Dontos Hollard – cut?
Podrick Payne
Davos storyline:
Davos
Stannis
Melissandre
Salladhor Saan (might be delayed to s.3)
Shireen Baratheon- extra?
Florent Selyse ?
Patchface
Alester Florent – cut?
Pylos – cut?
Nightwatch storyline:
Craster
Gilly
Ygritte
Qhorin halfhand
Greyjoy storyline:
Aeron Greyjoy
Balon Greyjoy
Asha Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy – cut?
Dany storyline:
Daxos Xaro Xohan
Pree Pyat
Quaithe
Belwas – delayed to s.3?
Arya storyline:
H’ghar Jaqen
Biter
Amory Lorch – probably combined with Gregor
Chiswyck
Vargo Hoat
Weese
other characters:
Brienne
Alayaya – probably combined with Ros
Hallyne
Margaery Tyrell – delayed to s.3?
Jojen Reed
Meera Reed – probably combined with Jojen
That’s a minimum of 25 new characters…
Amir MishaliQuote Reply
Thanks! But if he doesn’t appear in S2, chances are he’ll appear in ADWD only to be instantly maimed, disfigured AND killed in a horrifying manner. :P
I’m not bitter anyway, this TV series is what made me discover in the first place a wonderful saga and the current man of my life. :P
BUT, Winter Is Coming, if I may, shall we do a Blackfish casting? It does no harm, supports the bottom and contains no gates. (You bet I’ll scream TROUTGATE to infinity and beyond if my man isn’t in.) I don’t usually do this, but Family, Duty, Honour compel me to pimp my Casting the Blackfish page.
About which (the casting), there have been some good points above, regarding salaries and actors’ renown. I can’t decide if I’d rather have Jeremy Irons (say) for 3 seconds as a “stunt casting”, or a talented unknown with a decent screentime. But at this point, I’ll take anything as long as he’s in.
O my lords, hear the plea of one of the most faithful bannerwomen of House Gatewatch!
Blackfish BluesQuote Reply
Amir Mishali,
I think your count is just about right; but now I wonder how many characters do we LOSE in S1?
I’m a dumb trout and so I think I can count only a few:
Ned
Robert
Viserys
Drogo
Jory
Vardis Egen
Whatshisname Arryn who dies in the tourney
Waymar Royce (stretching it)
Lord Arryn (hey, he’s listed in the cast!)
Mycah (stretching it even more)
Lady (grasping at straws)
…
Who am I forgetting? It’s still 11 to 25, a bad percentage, but what I mean is that we do lose a good chunk of the named cast, not considering unnamed extras.
Blackfish BluesQuote Reply
Blackfish Blues,
Qotho
Mirri Maz Duur
Septa Mordane
Syrio Forel
That’s about it…
Amir MishaliQuote Reply
Amir Mishali,
Oh, right, thanks! Whoops, shouldn’t that be spoilered?
Also:
The one beheaded in the beginning. (Can’t use spoilers.)
Blackfish BluesQuote Reply
Blackfish Blues,
haha, yeah completely forgot about spoilers. too late now, i guess…
Amir MishaliQuote Reply
Lord Ned’s Head,
I totally agree with that, I think it’s strangely a good thing the budget isn’t unlimited. I’ve seen enough LOTR-scale battle sequences, I’m not impressed by them anymore. The characters are what makes ASIAF great, too much money only tempts distraction from that. I’d rather see a small scene with let’s say Cersei and Tyrion, or Arya and Gendry, than a battle. And yes, battles can be shot small by concentrating on a character POV.
As far as a S2 budget, I’d think they could re-use much of the work they did from S1 (costumes, props, scenery, sword and horse training, location scouting, etc.), so that should actually save them money.
Nigel TufnelQuote Reply