GRRM details ADwD
By Fire And Blood on in Books, News.

George R.R. Martin’s latest LiveJournal entry holds some interesting details concerning A Dance with Dragons! And a number of them will directly affect season five (and beyond) of Game of Thrones.

Assuming we get there.

(Of course we will.)

WARNING: There are more than a few spoilers. Proceed no further, ye who’ve not caught up past A Feast for Crows.

READ THE ENTRY HERE!

A couple interesting tidbits:

Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS.

And…

Tyrion is not the only Lannister with a viewpoint. Cersei and Jaime will have chapters as well, though… be warned… not a lot of them. Arya is also on hand. And we’ll check in with Bran and his companions as well, on their long cold trek beyond the Wall. There are two Dornish POVs (one old, one new), and three ironborn(all previous POVs).

Fire And Blood: Looks like we wait a bit longer to find out the infamous word Brienne shouted out. And no Sansa, which probably means no Littlefinger! Brutal. But it’ll be good to catch up with Tyrion, Jon, and Dany after so long… and I’m really looking forward to the Dorne stuff.


270 Comments

  1. patryn0
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    The next largest chunk o’ chapters belongs to an old POV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us… rather the worse for wear.

    I wonder, is he referring to Cat?

    Also first!

  2. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:00 am | Permalink

    This stuff is amaaaaazing! And I love that he talks about the whole writing process, it’s a proper essay! ’tis a very exciting morning :)

    I just posted my POV guesstimation based on GRRMs confirmations and clues on the previous thread, but I’ll post it here too (since it’s where it belongs):


    Tyrion
    Dany
    Jon
    Cersei
    Jaime
    Arya
    Bran
    Theon (I1)
    Barristan
    Asha (I2)
    Victarion (I3)
    Areo Hotah (Old Dornish)
    Quentyn (New Dornish)
    Mel
    Davos
    1 unidentified

  3. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    patryn0

    Nah, I think it must be Theon. Would be… interesting to know what goes on in ZombieCat’s head though…

  4. patryn0
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    EvilPicnic,

    Well, I wonder about that. Wasn’t Theon present in the last few books as a POV?

  5. AlecTrev
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Theon has not been a PoV since he was captured at the end of CoK.

    We saw some of his flailed skin in SoS courtesy of Roose Bolton, so TECHNICALLY he “appeared” in there…

  6. Pierce VanderBent
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    How long until Winds is done????

  7. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    patryn0:
    EvilPicnic,

    Well, I wonder about that. Wasn’t Theon present in the last few books as a POV?

    No, he was a POV in ACoK, after that no. Now he returns, but the chapters, at least at first, will be name Reek.

  8. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    Hey FaB, that cover you have in the post for ADwD is way old. You really should use the actual cover that will be used. And it’s even going to be the same for both the US and UK releases after Voyager decided to use the US cover after all.

  9. SugarVampire
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:34 am | Permalink

    A repost from last thread:

    ADwD 16 POVs – my take (based on hints from GRRM’s Not A Blog)

    North of Westeros

    1. Reek – Theon (Ironborn 1)
    2. Bran

    Essos

    3. Dany
    4. Barristan (new)
    5. Tyrion
    6. Arya
    7. Quentyn (Dornish – new)
    8. Areo Hotah (Dornish – old, proxy for Doran)
    9. Asha (Ironborn 2)
    10. Victarion (Ironborn 3)

    Rest of Westeros

    11. Jaime
    12. Cersei
    13. Davos

    The Wall
    14.
    Jon
    15. Melisandre (new) (rumored/confirmed by Wikipedia)

    which leaves one new POV unresolved.

    I think it might be Osha who will help out with the action in the North and replace Davos at the end of ADwD. Yes, I believe Davos will die for the cause. Or a more intriguing POV Sir Jorah, who will probably die for Dany at the end of ADwD.

    Upon further reflection, I think Osha as the new POV makes more sense. Since she could interact with Jon and Bran, help resolved the fate of Rickon and Davos, act as a Wildlings/Northern myth storyteller like Old Nan.

  10. Pamoya
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:37 am | Permalink

    Quoting from GRRM’s post: “And there are some new viewpoint characters. Some of them are new CHARACTERS, introduced for the first time in this book.”

    The missing #16 is probably a brand new character we don’t know yet.

  11. John Engedal
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    No Brienne makes me sad(although everything else makes me happy so I´m not really sad).
    But maybe we´ll have some word on her fate anyway! :)

  12. Lex
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    Off topic, but today (Thursday) was my birthday. A friend gave me the best gift ever: Baratheon t-shirt, Lannister t-shirt, Ned Stark poster!

  13. biliki
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    EvilPicnic:
    Tyrion
    Dany
    Jon
    Cersei
    Jaime
    Arya
    Bran
    Theon (I1)
    Barristan
    Asha (I2)
    Victarion (I3)
    Areo Hotah (Old Dornish)
    Quentyn (New Dornish)
    Mel
    Davos
    1 unidentified

    I agree with everything! I think the last one is Melissandre!

    EDIT: OOPS sorry my bad, I didn’t see you included her! :/

  14. Samantha Hirst
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    No Brienne? *cries* So we have to wait another 2+ years to find out what happened to her. *le sigh*

    lol. Still can’t wait for ADWD though.

  15. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    Interesting. I’m thinking the unknown POV character will be a new one. I’ll go out on a limb and say it’s a character that hasn’t been introduced in the books yet. Not sure if spoiler bars are really necessary for this topic but I’ll use them anyways. With no Sam or Sansa chapters I’m thinking it could be a character in the Vale or at Oldtown, just so part of those stories are developed. I have a suspicion that the epilogue will involve Sansa’s marriage to Harry to set up the next book. I can’t see a whole book without Littlefinger appearing.

  16. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    pre-ordered from Book Depository :)

  17. nixterida
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    No Alleras/Sarella? No Sam? There’s shit going down in Oldtown that we have to know!!

  18. ANH
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    A pity about Brienne and Sansa. Personally, I could do without so many Ironborn POVs, but oh well.

    With all the shuffling around of characters, it seems like D&D are going to have to split up and sew back together their copies of Feast and Dance so that they can come up with some chronologically-sensible splitting of seasons.

    Also, I assumed the missing POV which will come back was Davos since he already mentioned Ironborn chapters as a way of referring to Theon.

  19. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:51 am | Permalink
  20. Fish
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    glad about Sansa, but to bad about Brienne and Sam

    and 3 damn ironborn POVs … that’s just sad :(

  21. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    Fish,

    I’m pretty sure one is Theon and the other two are Asha and Victarion. So even though they are ironborn chapters, they won’t take place on the iron islands, which should make them more interesting. I’m looking forward to the Reek chapters, finally learn more about the creepy Boltons and the dreadfort.

  22. ZeroCool
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    No one wants the new POV with the character we haven’t seen yet to be Howland Reed? Just me?

  23. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    RitariKnight,

    I was gonna use the latest cover, but I think the last time we posted about ADwD it was with the new cover. Just tryin’ to keep it fresh, yo.

    If the virulent green offends, I can instead replace it with a picture of KONG.

  24. Eleanor
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    It’s a shame the Meereenese Knot couldn’t have been resolved without adding what we’re fairly sure is a POVfrom Dany’s cadre. I was really looking forward to the total freshness of people who know nothing about her journey suddenly encountering her cold.

    Oh, and ZeroCool, I think he confirmed at one point that Howland Reed would never be a POV because he knew too much.

  25. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    Eleanor,

    The infamous knot was probably resolved by adding Barristan as a POV.

    GRRM also said at some point that Melisandre will never be a POV, for the same reason. At this point I woudn’t trust anything GRRM says during the writing. The finished product will be perfect no matter what, and the more surprises the book has for the reader the better.

  26. Kroket
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:01 am | Permalink

    What about Loras or someone else from his family? Story needs a Flower POV in my opinion or will we have to wait for Winds of Winter? I thought we saw stuff from the capital too?

  27. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood:
    RitariKnight,

    I was gonna use the latest cover, but I think the last time we posted about ADwD it was with the new cover. Just tryin’ to keep it fresh, yo.

    If the virulent green offends, I can instead replace it with a picture of KONG.

    The reason I posted what I posted is not because I don’t like the green cover, it’s ok in fact, but since the book will not be coming out with that cover and there are probably many visitors to this site that might get confused by the different covers as they might not be privy to the complicated cover history of Dance. Having the actual release cover on any Dance related post would be better as it would help in getting people to recognize the book if they see it (instead of trying to find the book in a bookstore by having a mental image of a different cover for it). Just my two cents.

  28. Jim
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    I wonder if the new character isn’t someone from Meereen who has joined the Son’s of the Harpies?

    I guess it would remove some of the tension from Dany’s side of things of we could see onto the organisation who wants to bring her down, but I think it could work.

  29. Tar Kidho
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    WiC, assuming the series will run for that long, WiC.net will still be around, and the end of time hasn’t come yet, don’t you think it would be nice to have some sort of a competition where the winner is he or she that predicts closest at what point Winds will be released? Even if it’s just ‘for honour’ without a real price involved, it would be good fun. You may register my bet as November 24 2015. What can I say, I’m a naïve positivo :-)

  30. my watch Begins
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:25 am | Permalink

    I personally think the new pov will be someone within the brother hood without banners. Maybe Thoros or Uncat. I really want a pov present when Walder Frey gets whats coming to him!

  31. Hollyoak
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Lex:
    Off topic, but today (Thursday) was my birthday. A friend gave me the best gift ever: Baratheon t-shirt, Lannister t-shirt, Ned Stark poster!

    Happy birthday, Lex!

  32. Mike Chair
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    I’m back from vacation.

    GRRM said

    And there are some new viewpoint characters. Some of them are new CHARACTERS, introduced for the first time in this book. Others are established characters, but new VIEWPOINTS; they have been around, but you’ve never gone inside their heads before.

    The answer is: The established character’s head would you like get inside most.

    *humming Jeopardy tune*

    The question is: Who is Petyr?

    At least I hope so.

  33. Za
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    Kroket:
    What about Loras or someone else from his family? Story needs a Flower POV in my opinion or will we have to wait for Winds of Winter? I thought we saw stufffrom the capital too?

    More of Queen of Thorns would make me very happy !
    (fangirl)

  34. Eleanor
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    nixterida:
    No Alleras/Sarella? No Sam? There’s shit going down in Oldtown that we have to know!!

    Oh no! You’re right! I was looking forward to Oldtown. :(

  35. SugarVampire
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    Arrogant Bastard,

    No Sam or Sansa / Alayne means no action on Oldtown or Vale. No Brienne>/b> means no BwB, no Stoneheart and no Gendry.

    According to Wikipedia, the prologue is Varamyr Sixskins, a skinchanger and one of the surviving wildlings north of the Wall.

  36. Bolton's Bastard
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Maybe I’m putting my head into the lion’s mouth, but here I go. Since this site’s focus is the TV series I’m going to look at this news from their interest. Took us 6 years to get from book 4 to 5, unless a HUGE change occurs we’ll get to the end of the series around 2019-2022. Providing GoT continues (fingers crossed) HBO will catch up WAY before the books are done. While I’ll look forward to the books, what will HBO do when they’re ready to start filming season “x” when the book for it hasn’t been finished? Does HBO have some clause with this deal to just let the writers plan out the series as THEY see fit, regardless if later on the books go a different route?

  37. nixterida
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    You could be right but an Alleras POV would give us some info on Sam plus story development in Oldtown.

  38. Sareeta
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    I hope when he says no Brienne, Sam, and Sansa he just means no chapter from their POV but we will find out what’s happening with them from maybe another character’s POV? I’m dying to know what happened to Brienne and intrigued about Sam and Sansa. Oh well. Must wait until July to find out. Can’t freaking wait!!!!

  39. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Bolton’s Bastard,

    This would only apply to Book 7 I would think as even if GRRM takes another 5 years to get Book 6 out it will be finished (or close enough) in time for the TV show to use.

    As for Book 7 if it isn’t out in time to adapt I would guess GRRM will give D+D as many details as he knows (he’s already told them how it ends I believe) and they’ll write the final season based on this.

  40. Za
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Or maybe HBO would do a prequel. The back story is so complex, they have enough to work with….

  41. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Za: Or maybe HBO would do a prequel. The back story is so complex, they have enough to work with….

    While HBO may well do prequels, Roberts Rebellion as someone suggested or adapting the Dunk and Egg stories I doubt they would replace the main series.

    I suppose if GRRM was only a year away from publishing book 7 they might give him the extra year but anything longer would not work. Not only do you have the child (not that they will be by then) actors aging yet another year but you’d have to keep all your cast on the payroll and have them doing nothing (very few Season/Book 6 cast would be involved in any sort of prequel I would think).

  42. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    RitariKnight,

    I think you should use a cover of A Lord of the Rings so new-comers will understand that it’s a fantasy book we’re talking about!

    Sorry, I think I was channeling the trolls in the casting thread – ignore this comment. :)

  43. userj
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    Uck… he seems to be saying that THEON will be the fourth most common PoV after Jon, Dany and Tyrion. For the life of me I can’t understand how reading about him being tortured by Ramsey Bolton for 10+ chapters could possibly be something I would want to read. He only had six chapters even in aCoK and that was plenty.

    Despite that gripe I’m SOO pumped to read about Tyrion and Dany! zomg!

    Oh! And regarded Brienne, I’ve always hoped that the next time we see her, it will be in a Jaime PoV (no need for a PoV to show her trekking back to KL).

  44. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    I think the returning worse for wear char will be Uncat. That will give us the BwoB and Brienne POV I also think one of the new POV’s will be in Oldtown, Petryn or someone else. So we’ll keep tabs on Sam

  45. David The Grey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    Ahh, the eyes, the eyes!!!!! It is SO hard to just max down to the bottom of the page to add a comment without reading any of the above. I’ve not read AFoC yet, after hearing everyone’s outcry I decided to let it sit on the shelf until the next book came out. I’m on my second reading of the series, and am on ASoS right now. Soon, soon, I’ll be reading all-new material! Can’t wait, and I can only imagine everyone else is super-excited for Dance to come out. Have fun! Hopefully we’ll all be here 5-6 years from now still happy as clams! :-)

  46. MADBerg
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    New character…Anyone remember that a Maester was sent to help Dany? If we’re lucky a POV from the maester could touch on Sam’s story

  47. Franny Bee
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    This news makes me very happy. Jon, Dany & Tyrion are the most compelling povs to me, so NAKED HAPPY DANCE! (sorry Queen Street)

  48. persephone88
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    I would be not at all upset if Dany somehow wipes out every last Ironborn in this book. Doubtful, but I can only hope. Just not an Greyjoy fan at all, though I am very interested in Theon’s perspective at the Dreadfort.

    I would be very happy to see a chapter from Barristan. He’d be good eyes in dealing with the Mereen knot, but also he has so much perspective on past events – on King Aerys, on the Lannisters, on Rhaegar, etc. I would be thrilled to get some backstory from his POV as well as the forward momentum of the Dany story.

    Osha is a possibility as a POV to keep us up on the wildlings, etc. I liked Osha (though I am living in fear that whatshername from Harry Potter may ruin the part in the TV show – just from the clips I’ve seen hints of the “Helena Bonham Carter School for Overacting” eyerolling weirdness – I liked Osha better as a hardened but wiser older woman, I think). I’d really like to know how Rickon has fared through all this, and she is a necessary POV for that.

    Woudl LOVE to see a Tyrell POV – Maergary, or Loras would be awesome, and you can’t give me enough of the Queen of Thorns, she is such a delightfully tart treat – but I’m guessing that won’t happen unless the focus really returns to Kings Landing.

    A little sad that they are skipping Sam and Alleras and Gilly in Oldtown – anyone else very curious what Pate the Pigboy is up to there? – and Brienne, but I am delighted that we will see a bit more of Jaime, Arya and Cersei in the new novel.

    As for older characters becoming POVs, I know it will not happen in this book, but I would really love to see the Hound become a POV later on. I know he’s at the monastery and that George *could* effectively choose to just leave him there pursuing a contemplative life, but really, don’t we all want to see him eventually face Gregor, find some resolve with the Sansa situation, or at least run into Arya again? I would like to know more of his backstory from his perspective.

    And I’m looking forward to forward progression involving the Martells, for sure. Lots to look forward to in this new novel…

  49. Ivan Popić
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Bolton’s Bastard,

    I hope GRRM won’t take that long to write the remaining books but I guess they could do a “Hedge Knight” spinoff to fill up until George gets the series finished.

  50. SugarVampire
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    nixterida,

    userj,

    Not all the area in Westeros will be covered in ADwD. Since AFFC covered the Vale and Oldtown, no Sam, no Sansa, no Brienne mostly likely means that no Vale, no Oldtown and no or very little Twins. Jaime and Cersei’s POVs means that Kings Landing will be covered.

    Theon or Reek is the fourth mostly covered POVs means to me that the North is one of the two main battleground/story telling places in ADwD. It will mostly likely involve Davos, Osha and Rickon in White Harbour, possibly Stannis, Jon and the Wildlings in the Gift or Asha when Ironborn and Bolten crashed in the North

  51. purplejilly
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Za,
    Prequel! Prequel! Young Viserys and Dany! Robert and Rhaegar at the Trident! Lyanna! Little Lannisters running all about.. that coudl be great!

    ADwD – No Sam? No Brienne? so sad… I have a soft spot for the underdog characters.. But again, I am sort of shying away from learning what happens to them. No happy endings in Westeros, it seems.. not for anyone..

  52. Cristian Modesto
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    If the show keeps doing well (fingers crossed), and assuming that ASOS is split into two seasons and that the same happens with a Dance with Dragons, it might work in the end…but, of course, if we get to season 9, we probably won’t even care anymore whether they catch up with George or not. It would be like a dream come true to have 9 seasons of ASOIAF.

    TV SHOW – Books

    ———————-2011 – A Dance with Dragons
    2012 – A Clash of Kings
    2013 – A Storm of Swords
    2014 – A Storm of Swords
    2015 – AFFC // ADWD 2015 – The Winds of Winter
    2016 – AFFC // ADWD
    2017 – The Winds of Winter
    2018 – The Winds of Winter
    ———————–2019 – A Dream of Spring

  53. purplejilly
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    PS – it would be fine with me if an earthquake sinks all the Iron Islands, and the Krakens are done forever. Give Theon a skin graft, and keep him alive and that’s more than enough Greyjoy for everyone..

  54. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Maybe the new character is a faceless man. Now that would be something.

  55. greenie88
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Cristian Modesto:
    If the show keeps doing well (fingers crossed), and assuming that ASOS is split into two seasons and that the same happens with a Dance with Dragons, it might work in the end…but, of course, if we get to season 9, we probably won’t even care anymore whether they catch up with George or not. It would be like a dream come true to have 9 seasons of ASOIAF.

    TV SHOW – Books

    2011 – A Dance with Dragons
    2012 – A Clash of Kings
    2013 – A Storm of Swords
    2014 – A Storm of Swords
    2015 – AFFC // ADWD 2015 – The Winds of Winter
    2016 – AFFC // ADWD
    2017 – The Winds of Winter
    2018 – The Winds of Winter2019 – A Dream of Spring

    I don’t see ASOS being broken up into 2 seasons (network executive decision)–but I’m sure they will lobby hard for 12-14 episodes. If GRRM works hard and puts aside side projects he can get Winds of Winter out in time…Dream of Spring probably won’t happen though.

  56. Onos Toolan
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Seems most people aren’t huge fans of the Ironborn. I’m a huge fan of Victarion and Asha though and can’t wait to see them enter the fray in Meereen and see what happens! :)

    What is dead may never die!!

  57. jwsnasa
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    patryn0: I wonder, is he referring to Cat?

    Also first!

    Anybody else notice that he said, “…Brienne has chapters that have been moved back…”

    chapterS!!!!!!!!

  58. Joss Attridge
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    I agree with Theon being the likely candidate for the return. What I thought though was that his warning that Cersei and Jaimes chapters being not many might indicate an imminent death for either or both of them.

  59. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    I don’t believe Theon is who GRRM meant when he said “The next largest chunk o’ chapters belongs to an old POV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us… rather the worse for wear.” I think it is UnCat. The math doesn’t add up easily otherwise.

  60. Alwyn Joseph
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    I love the Dornish and the Iron Born characters, especially Victarion, Euron, Asha, Areo Hotah, Doran Martell, Arianne, The Sand Snakes(they sound awesome).

  61. userj
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire:
    Theon or Reek is the fourth mostly covered POVs means to me that the North is one of the two main battleground/story telling places in ADwD. It will mostly likely involve Davos, Osha and Rickon in White Harbour, possibly Stannis, Jon and the Wildlings in the Gift or Asha when Ironborn and Bolten crashed in the North

    Yeah… and all that seems irrelevent to, well, basically anything that actually matters to produce forward progress in the plot. Which is why I’m bitter about Theon being a PoV – A prologue PoV I could take. But more chapters than Bran???? Come on.

    aSoIaF can be summarized basically as follows.
    1) Dany builds an army and makes allies in order to eventually invade Westeros.
    2) Jon preparing to fight the others.
    3) The struggle for the crown (which, IMO, is more of a precurser to 1 anyway)
    4) The development of the Stark pups, and their eventual return to power.

    None of these are advanced in any way by a Theon PoV. Or Asha for that matter. Stupid freaking krakens,

  62. Cristian Modesto
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Onos Toolan,

    I would really like an Euron Greyjoy potential storyline involving Highgarden (which has been the only “neglected” kingdom” so far) and Casterly Rock too, since we haven’t been there at all and the place could be really interesting. Also, there’s a lot of potential in Victarion storyline, the only thing I find boring about the Iron Island is Asha’s storyline.

  63. James Bell
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    ZeroCool,

    Howland Reed would be amazing! Let’s hope so

  64. userj
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Gwalchmai,

    I don’t think i’ts unCat/Lady Stoneheart. GRRM said that the returning PoV has been missing for “a couple” of books and Cat’s last PoV was in aSoS, she’s only been missing for 1 book. Also aDwD SPOILER: GRRM’s done readings from Theon’s PoV (called “Reek”) where he’s being tortured by Ramsey. So it fits really well.

  65. Bryan
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    More than likely, there will be only 1 chapter each for Cersei, Jaime, and Arya in ADWD – GRRM has mentioned that he would tie up some cliffhangers for POV characters from AFFC at the end of ADWD. Unfortunately, Brienne’s got pushed back.

    The 16 POV characters in ADWD:

    1. Tyrion
    2. Dany
    3. Jon Snow
    4. Theon (Ironborn #1)
    5. Bran
    6. Cersei
    7. Jaime
    8. Arya
    9. Asha (Ironborn #2)
    10. Victarion (Ironborn #3)
    11. Areo Hotah (Dornish #1)
    12. Davos
    13. Quentyn Martell (new character, new POV, Dornish #2)
    14. Barristan Selmy (existing character, new POV, Meereenese knot solution?)
    15. Melisandre (existing character, new POV)
    16. ?????????????????? (new POV)

  66. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    We can conclude a bunch of things from this post and others from the past. 16 POVs + 1 prologue + 1 epilogue means 18 in total, from this entry. We have the following confirmations from the Not a Blog entry:

    A rather long post I put on facebook, will post here as well, but contains spoilers so read at your own peril…

    And using the information that there is NO Sansa, Arianne, Aeron, Sam or Brienne.

    1. Jon
    2. Dany
    3. Tyrion
    4. Old POV that is back, worse for wear = THEON (this is proven due to GRRM readings and spoiler chapters), plus that there are THREE RETURNING ironborn POVs, we only ever had 4 before (Theon, Aeron, Vic, and Asha), when Aeron is out, Theon must be one.
    5. Arya
    6. Bran
    7. Cersei
    8. Jaime
    9/10: 2 dornish, one old, one new (Areo Hotah, even tho is not a dornish, i think is included here as the old one). The new is confirmed to be Quintyn Martell from previous Not a Blog entries.
    11/12: 3 Ironborn, all old POVs one is already Theon (see above), is Aeron is out, only leaves Vic and Asha.
    13. Barristan Semly was confirmed on Not a Blog a few days before.
    14. Davos: This one is not confirmed in this entry, but some of his chapters from Dance were read by GRRM at some signings, so you can pretty much confirm his presence in this book.

    This leaves us 2 POVs plus the prologue and the epilogue. The prologue is confirmed also by readings to be the wildling Varamry Sixskins, and will prob die as is tradition by the end of it. Epilogue we have no clue.

    As to the others we can make some intelligent speculation. The reason everyone thinks Mel is in is due to a Not a Blog post long long ago, stating that 1 of 3 characters based on recently completed Dark Sword minatures would be a new POV in Dance. They were Loras, The Hound, and Mel. GRRM later said in interview that “The Hound is dead”, so people ruled him out. He also said no Tyrells will get POV, so by default that left Mel. But in my mind, I am not so quick to disregard Sandor Clegane, as his words The Hound is dead, it may be taken figuratively to mean the personality of the hound is dead, and Sandor is alive, ie. the Gravedigger Brienne meets at the towards the end of her story. His chapters may be styled Sandor, and be a totally different person, if the Hound inside him is really dead. On the other hand, there is nothing to rule out Mel as a POV, so it is also likely. Either way, one of these 2 left over POVs must be one of those 2.

    The other one, we can make some guess due to the words GRRM wrote today in his blog. To quote:
    “Some of them are new CHARACTERS, introduced for the first time in this book.”
    Some of them sounds to me like a plural form, meaning more then 1. All the characters confirmed or thus far speculated are not new, except for Quintyn Martell, whom we have no met yet. Therefore I think the last POV will also be new, meaning we have not seen him/her at ALL in the series. This rules out unCat, Stannis, Thoros, and tons and tons of others. It does not in fact rule out Howland Reed. But for the next statement by GRRM, i think this is not likely:

    “What I can say? At least part of the infamous Meereenese knot was a viewpoint problem. (Not all of it, no, a lot had to do with chronology and causation, but some of it was a POV question). Introducing a new POV helped me resolve those problems, and made for a better book.”

    This sounds to me like the NEW POV was something that likely helped him with the Meereenese knot, and therefore will be over in the east with Dany. And for those of you familiar with the spoiler chapters of Tyrion, my money is on Young or Old Griff, someone from that mercenary company started by Bittersteel, some someone else in these camps.

    So sorry for the length, hope it helps with the discussion….

  67. SingSong
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    I’m a bit gutted if all of this means we won’t get a Loras POV. On the other hand.. It’s difficult to stay disappointed for too long when so much awesomeness seems around the corner. (And that’s coming from someone for whom the Dany story, Jon to an extent and even the Ironborn have always excited me the least).

    Quite excited about the prospect of a Theon POV. I get the feeling he’ll be privy to a lot of the political machinations going on (mostly through eavesdropping or being underestimated) so should be a good read.

  68. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Bryan,

    Whoa, your list is exaclty like mine except for 1 character. I don’t think Davos makes it, but UnCat is the “worse for wear” character. GRRM has stated he will clear up all cliffhangers in AFFC so we need a Brienne POV IMO.

    I know this is wishful thinking and unlikely, but it’d be awesome if the last new POV was Howland Reed.

    Another obsevation, and I’m not sure how this would work since it would throw a wrench into my list….No Sansa chapters, but is this word play possibly meaning there could be Alayna chapters?

  69. Drfunk
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    I don’t think the book series has any relevance with which season is shown. HBO sees ASoIaF as 1 complete story, not as book 1-2-3-4 etc… there may be some logistics issues as the GRRM hasn’t completed the last 2 yet but there’s no rule of thumb that says each book must be 1 season.

    ACoK is already a lot bigger than GoT was. Despite how awesome the show looks presently, we already see the limitations of the TV medium (cutting away some of our fav lines, doing away with some minor characters) etc… 10 hours couldn’t encompass the whole of book 1. It’ll get worse by ACoK (but still manageable). By the time it hits ASoS, all bets are off. D&D already mused about the possibility of splitting seasons in 1 of their interviews. ASoS is almost twice as big as GoT. The sheer density/plotlines to put it crudely there’s a lot of f@#$@ s@#$@ going on in Book 3.

    Even if they split book 3 into two seasons, I bet we’d still have cause to whine about how they cut away this and that etc.. the major issue with splitting into various seasons is that they might run out of the good stuff and put too much fillers. In this case, there will NOT have to worry about such things. In fact this series might be one of the few that will never have a filler episode (as each episode is very much needed to finish the arc on the season).

    A lot of things can happen between now and ten years from now (assuming the 5 year avg). GRRM could very well pump out a book 3 years from now (based on what he learned with ADWD). Or it could be 15 years before we see the next book. HBO could be bought out or go bankrupt. So it’s kinda silly to worry about problems that “may” occur that far out. There’s more than enough material for 7~9 (with book 5) seasons at this time. So let’s enjoy the ride and hope this series last as long as the book series.

    PS: I agree, having a PoV from a Faceless Man would be beyond epic.

  70. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Gwalchmai:
    Bryan,

    Whoa, your list is exaclty like mine except for 1 character. I don’t think Davos makes it, but UnCat is the “worse for wear” character. GRRM has stated he will clear up all cliffhangers in AFFC so we need a Brienne POV IMO.

    I know this is wishful thinking and unlikely, but it’d be awesome if the last new POV was Howland Reed.

    Another obsevation, and I’m not sure how this would work since it would throw a wrench into my list….No Sansa chapters, but is this word play possibly meaning there could be Alayna chapters?

    No unCAt, read my post above… also no Brienne, GRRM said it today. A Sandor POV might clear up the Brienne situation as well. Or we might get it from Jaime.

  71. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    William Aaron Grandy,

    Nice, well thought post. I think Barristan is the new POV to help with the Meereenese knot imo. I agree with what you said about Howland Reed, but I’m not giving up hope as I’m a R+L=J fan.

  72. Bryan
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Gwalchmai,

    Davos is a definite POV for ADWD – GRRM has read sample ADWD chapters for Davos at signings, as others have pointed out. Theon has to be the worse-for wear character. Unfortunately, it looks like Brienne’s fate won’t be known until TWOW.

  73. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Joss Attridge,

    or it may indicate that he is leaving Cersei’s trial unresolved until WoW, which would be a HUGE disappointment.

  74. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    William Aaron Grandy: “What I can say? At least part of the infamous Meereenese knot was a viewpoint problem. (Not all of it, no, a lot had to do with chronology and causation, but some of it was a POV question). Introducing a new POV helped me resolve those problems, and made for a better book.”

    That is just as likely to be the new PoV from Barristan than a totally new character.

  75. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    William Aaron Grandy,

    I do not think “worse for wear”=Theon. It’s too easy to make that leap, and GRRM is crafty. Using your logic about the Hound being dead and a new character, I say the same could be said for UnCat.

    The other idea I could use (though I doubt it), is Davos being the “worse for wear” character as he was reported captured and killed. He is likely captured and perhaps tortured. Hey! Maybe he got his other fingers shortened so he can wear those around his neck for luck now!

  76. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Bryan:
    Gwalchmai,

    Davos is a definite POV for ADWD – GRRM has read sample ADWD chapters for Davos at signings, as others have pointed out. Theon has to be the worse-for wear character. Unfortunately, it looks like Brienne’s fate won’t be known until TWOW.

    Why do u rule out learning or even seeing something of Brienne’s fate thru the eyes of other POV characters?? Jaime is in Riverrun, and if Sandor does become a POV, he is in a good position to learn something of her fate.

    Also GRRM writes about the missing POVs:

    ” Several of those characters had chapters written, completed, and polished that have been moved into THE WINDS OF WINTER.”

    Its not proof, but it certainly gives hope that some of those chapters are from Brienne, and that she will survive.

  77. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Mormegil: That is just as likely to be the new PoV from Barristan than a totally new character.

    Its true, but I think from the wording of his entry and the fact that GRRM had such a hard time writing the Dany chapters, we will get another eye on her.

  78. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Gwalchmai:
    William Aaron Grandy,

    Could be, but we def know Theon is in, and is def worse for wear, so both things fit. My gut tells me its Theon.

    I do not think “worse for wear”=Theon. It’s too easy to make that leap, and GRRM is crafty. Using your logic about the Hound being dead and a new character, I say the same could be said for UnCat.

    The other idea I could use (though I doubt it), is Davos being the “worse for wear” character as he was reported captured and killed. He is likely captured and perhaps tortured. Hey! Maybe he got his other fingers shortened so he can wear those around his neck for luck now!

  79. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Bryan,

    William Aaron Grandy,

    I’m definitely not ruling that out, I just don’t think that is the way it happens. I love all this speculation, but the fact is we are all making guesses at how this will work out. That’s the fun of it! You and Bryan have both made good observations and guesses, but the truth is we just don’t know for sure. Do I think my list is certain? Absolutly not, but I don’t think yours is either.

  80. Hot Pie
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    patryn0: The next largest chunk o’ chapters belongs to an old POV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us… rather the worse for wear.

    I wonder, is he referring to Cat?

    Also first!

    Nope, it’s probably going to be Theon. He said that the character’s been “missing for the last couple of books”, excluding both Cat and Davos, who were both in aSoS. Theon’s the only PoV character in the 2nd book that doesn’t show up in the third or fourth installments. Plus, I would certainly describe being FLAYED ALIVE by the Boltons *shudder* as being “worse for the wear.”

    I think all of us need to prepare our mind’s eye for Theon where-the-hell-is-my-skin-arghhh Greyjoy

  81. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    William Aaron Grandy,

    Yeah, I’m going on the assumption that she’s alive just because he mentions her in his post. To me there is much more important stuff to resolve involving the goings on in the East which I’m hoping this book does.

  82. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Gwalchmai:
    Bryan,

    William Aaron Grandy,

    I’m definitely not ruling that out, I just don’t think that is the way it happens. I love all this speculation, but the fact is we are all making guesses at how this will work out. That’s the fun of it! You and Bryan have both made good observations and guesses, but the truth is we just don’t know for sure. Do I think my list is certain? Absolutly not, but I don’t think yours is either.

    I don’t rule anything out, everything is in, of course, my own opinion! No offence or anything…

  83. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Hot Pie: Nope, it’s probably going to be Theon. He said that the character’s been “missing for the last couple of books”, excluding both Cat and Davos, who were both in aSoS. Theon’s the only PoV character in the 2nd book that doesn’t show up in the third or fourth installments. Plus, I would certainly describe being FLAYED ALIVE by the Boltons *shudder* as being “worse for the wear.”

    I think all of us need to prepare our mind’s eye for Theon where-the-hell-is-my-skin-arghhh Greyjoy

    Yap my thought exactly!

  84. Nick Larter
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    My favourite choice for a new PoV character would be Howland Reed – not least because he’s maybe the only living character who knows whether or not R+L=J
    Oops I just saw the other comments about Reed. Well I guess I can see GRRM’s point of view on that. He’s probably told Meera the really important stuff anyway! How about Harry the Heir then – so we still get some Vale action!

  85. persephone88
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    I’m also a bit bummed that we will not get any Tyrell POVs. I missed that announcement – was that taken to mean no Tyrell POVs *ever* of just in this next book? I agree that Highgarden has been mightily in the background, as has Casterly Rock, but we still have three books to go where they may show up.

    My money is on Davos or Theon over unCat for the worse for wear character. Really, revealing the thought process for an undead character would be pretty challenging, and I think Davos and Theon both have more potential to move the story forward due to location and connections. Honestly, I’m not sure how realistic or clear a Lady Stoneheart POV would be anyway, given her state.

    I’m kind of hoping the brand new POV is NOT from the Mereen tangle. Young / Old Griff could easily be introduced via Barristan.

  86. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Looks like we wait a bit longer to find out the infamous word Brienne shouted out.

    I don’t think so. For one he said we’d be getting a POV that we haven’t had in awhile and that is the worse for wear. That is almost certainly UN-Cat. If I’m correct, then we’ll be seeing Brienne, just not as a POV. All he said was Brienne has no POV, not that Brienne is not in the book. And, since other AFFC POVs are in the book (Jaime and Cersei), we know he’ll be covering the story past AFFC timeline, so it follows that SOMETHING about Brienne will be in there. Brienne POV was only ever needed because there weren’t other POV characters to use to tell her story. Now that she’s fallen back in with Cat, I’m guessing George decided to tell the story from Cat POV from this point on.

  87. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Samantha Hirst:
    No Brienne? *cries* So we have to wait another 5+ years to find out what happened to her. *le sigh*

    lol. Still can’t wait for ADWD though.

    FTFY

  88. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    ADWD sample chapter spoilers:

    There was already a Reek (aka Theon) chapter released as a sample, so the “character we haven’t seen for a couple books that is the worse for wear” is definitely Theon. Besides, Cat/unCat has only been missing from one book, not two.

  89. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Hrmph! All of you supporting the “We Do Not Sow” for the worse for wear ARE sowing doubts in my Uncat theory. I’m not ready to roll over on this yet, but you are making some sense. I’m just not willing to give up no BwoB POV, but perhaps this will explained with a new POV? If UnCat doesn’t make an appearance I have 2 empty POV slots for “new” chars.

  90. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    ZeroCool:
    No one wants the new POV with the character we haven’t seen yet to be Howland Reed? Just me?

    Oh God please. Unfortunately I think we’re not learning what we all want Howland to tell us until at least WoW.

  91. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Cat / Un-Cat has been in all four books. I think you can rule that one out.

  92. Hot Pie
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    persephone88: anyone else very curious what Pate the Pigboy is up to there?

    hehe, don’t you mean Jaquen Hygar? After all, the original Pate was killed in the prologue by a hooded man who described himself as “no one”…

  93. Adrian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    “Worse for wear” character is Theon. I can’t believe anybody would think you’d get any sort of meaningful insight from the POV of someone whose last POV ended with them completely crazy and nonsensical.

    If I had to pick characters from the other books to omit for this one, I would’ve chosen exactly the ones who are apparently missing. Sam hasn’t done a single interesting thing since he left the Wall, Aeron was never interesting, Arianne is boring…Sansa and Brienne I’m completely “meh” about.

  94. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Kroket:
    What about Loras or someone else from his family? Story needs a Flower POV in my opinion or will we have to wait for Winds of Winter? I thought we saw stufffrom the capital too?

    Loras being the character that is worse for wear is certainly a plausible guess. The biggest problem I see with this is that I don’t think he’d be in a place to tell us stuff the other POVs couldn’t handle. Oh, but the worse for wear comment was about a returning POV, right? Hrm…

    I don’t buy Theon/Reek as the “worse for wear” POV, I think that’s a red herring. He mentioned that there would be 3 ironborn, so I think Theon is covered by that clue. And he knew we’d all assume the “worse for wear” was Reek. George likes his little games, and I’m thinking that this is one of them.

  95. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton,

    This was my theory also, but now I’m wavering.

  96. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    dizzy_34:
    Cat / Un-Cat has been in all four books. I think you can rule that one out.

    That’s a good point. I forgot that Stoneheart had a POV in AFFC. I only read AFFC once, unlikely the half dozen + times I’ve read the others. It just wasn’t as good.

  97. Mr. Frey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Cristian Modesto,

    Cristian Modesto: If the show keeps doing well (fingers crossed), and assuming that ASOS is split into two seasons and that the same happens with a Dance with Dragons, it might work in the end…but, of course, if we get to season 9, we probably won’t even care anymore whether they catch up with George or not. It would be like a dream come true to have 9 seasons of ASOIAF.

    TV SHOW – Books

    ———————-2011 – A Dance with Dragons
    2012 – A Clash of Kings
    2013 – A Storm of Swords
    2014 – A Storm of Swords
    2015 – AFFC // ADWD 2015 – The Winds of Winter
    2016 – AFFC // ADWD
    2017 – The Winds of Winter
    2018 – The Winds of Winter
    ———————–2019 – A Dream of Spring

    Does anybody expect that after ASOS, HBO will start tinkering with the story more and more? Some of it will be required — say an actor doesn’t want to return or a minor character becomes a fan favorite (Everyone loves Hodor!). If the show is successful, HBO will have a bit more space to restructure the story.

    If successful, by the time Winds of Winter comes out, the GOT TV show will resemble Catalyn -- a shambling creature that barely resembles its original self. It may still be good, but there will be more TV-show fans than book fans. By the 7th season, GRRM will be writing an unrelated story.

    It will make some of the debates we currently have seem silly. Instead, we’ll argue endlessly if the zombie Cersei is canonical.

  98. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    All those who have trouble accepting the “worse for wear” POV as being Theon need to rethink things. There is no way it could be anybody else. The reasons are very, very clear.

    The exact quote from GRRM on this POV is “The next largest chunk o’ chapters belongs to an old POV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us… rather the worse for wear.”

    Old POV who has been missing for a couple of books. That means this POV character didn’t have any POV chapters in ASoS or AFfC (couple = two). This rules out UnCat for a fact. The only POV character who featured in ACoK that did not feature in the next two novels is Theon. GRRM has read sample chapters that feature a character called Reek and he has made one “Reek” sample chapter available for online reading as well. It is evident from the text in these samples that Reek is in fact Theon and that he is a bit worse for wear compared to ACoK.

    Theon is also one of four Ironborn POV’s in the books so far, and we know Aeron won’t be in ADwD, but three old Ironborn POV’s will be, so Theon is in the book for sure.

  99. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    I don’t think GRRM will take this long with the last books. He’s said that the story has been at its broadest in AFfC/ADwD and now there will be a narrowing of focus for the final two. There also shouldn’t be similar problems like the Meereneese Knot to solve, which after all came from his decision to scrap his original five-year gap from ASoS to ADwD. He has now gotten past the problems he wrote himself in, and I would truly think he should be able to finish the last two books in three years a book. So I expect to have the last book out in 2017 or 2018 at the latest.

  100. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    In the video from his editor, she pulled a sample page that certianly sounded like it was from the point of view of Ramsey Snow. I believe that’s one of the new POV’s of existing characters along with Ser Barristan. These ‘new’ characters he mentions, I believe, are just that, new characters we haven’t heard mentioned before.

  101. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    dizzy_34: his editor, she pulled a sample page that certianly sounded like it was from the point of view of Ramsey Snow. I believe that’s one of the new POV’s of existing characters along with Ser Barr

    Dont forget about the epilogue character. Ramsey could win that slot, only to be pwned at the end of it, and rightfully so!

  102. William Aaron Grandy
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    RitariKnight:
    All those who have trouble accepting the “worse for wear” POV as being Theon need to rethink things. There is no way it could be anybody else. The reasons are very, very clear.

    The exact quote from GRRM on this POV is “The next largest chunk o’ chapters belongs to an old POV character who has been missing for a couple of books, but now returns to us… rather the worse for wear.”

    Old POV who has been missing for a couple of books. That means this POV character didn’t have any POV chapters in ASoS or AFfC (couple = two). This rules out UnCat for a fact. The only POV character who featured in ACoK that did not feature in the next two novels is Theon. GRRM has read sample chapters that feature a character called Reek and he has made one “Reek” sample chapter available for online reading as well. It is evident from the text in these samples that Reek is in fact Theon and that he is a bit worse for wear compared to ACoK.

    Theon is also one of four Ironborn POV’s in the books so far, and we know Aeron won’t be in ADwD, but three old Ironborn POV’s will be, so Theon is in the book for sure.

    Totally agree with you!

  103. Lina
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    I agree with a lot of what people have already said here.

    I think the character “worse for wear” is either Theon, or less likely, Davos. Just because GRRM notes one person is worse for wear and then says there are three Ironborn doesn’t mean those can’t refer to the same person. And Theon was absent in ASOS/AFFC (“a couple of books”), while Davos was only absent in AFFC (“a book”).

    My list:

    CONFIRMED
    1. Jon
    2. Dany
    3. Tyrion
    4. Cersei
    5. Jaime
    6. Bran
    7. Arya
    8. Theon (1st Ironborn; sample chapter as Reek)
    9. Barristan (unknotted Meereen, confirmed on GRRM’s blog) *new POV #1

    IRONBORN
    10. Asha (2nd)
    11. Victarion (3rd)

    DORNE
    12. Areo Hotah (“old”)
    13. Quentyn Martell (“new”) *new POV #2

    OTHER
    14. Davos
    15. new POV and/or character
    16. new POV and/or character

    George mentions new characters, so there must at least be one new person we’ve never met before.

    If one of those last POVs is an established character, my shortlist includes people from the Vale, Oldtown, and Riverlands…as there appear to be no one in the above list that would really be able to provide insight into the happenings of those regions (we don’t know exactly where Jaime will be). My shortlist for Vale/Oldtown/Riverlands established characters are: Gendry, Thoros, Alleras (though s/he may qualify as Dornish and thus be excluded, as those spots are filled), a Tyrell (Margaery- could be interesting compare/contrast between her and Cersei’s trials; or Loras – if he’s alive, on Dragonstone), or Osha (to show Rickon and the North outside the scope of the Wall).

    I’m going to go out on a limb with this one, but could a new POV for an already-established character be….THE BLACKFISH?!! Think about it, he would be the perfect person to illustrate the Riverlands, and if he has Jeyne Westerling with him, that could be some awesome plot action. I want to say it’s too good to possibly be true, but what if? It would most definitely be the epitome of BADASS.

    Also, Howland Reed would be very telling, but I think that’s highly unlikely.

    *Note: If GRRM ever mentioned that the characters I just listed would never have a POV, please let me know.

  104. KG
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Well, I hate Dorne, and I’ve never liked the Dany story >_> sucks to be me.

  105. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    ZeroCool:
    No one wants the new POV with the character we haven’t seen yet to be Howland Reed? Just me?

    I do think somewhere along the line he’s going to make an appearance, and when he does, it’s going to be EPIC.

  106. Hot Pie
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton: Loras being the character that is worse for wear is certainly a plausible guess.

    Heh, what is with GRRM horribly injuring / crippling / handicapping his characters? Major spoilers ahead, but Bran is crippled 4 life, Jaime lost his sword hand, Catelyn has like 1/5 of a throat left and is apparently a zombie, The Hound has what is most likely a perma-limp, Arya is blind, Loras is on his deathbed and IF he survives will most likely have SOME major physical handicap, Tyrion has no nose, Theon is getting flayed alive, Davos loses his damn fingers for being awsome…i’m probably missing some, but dang GRRM, especially considering that most of these are / have become sympathetic characters by the time it happens.

  107. MUGger
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Has anyone thought about Thoros being a POV (perhaps for the epilogue)? That character could provide a viewpoint for several other characters in Westeros, and could serve as a way to witness the resolution of the Brienne cliffhanger.

  108. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    MetalgoddessAMB: I do think somewhere along the line he’s going to make an appearance, and when he does, it’s going to be EPIC.

    Well, you’d think he’d go looking for his kids after he heard about Winterfell.

  109. Ed
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    I did NOT notice that! Good catch!

    jwsnasa: Anybody else notice that he said, “…Brienne has chapters that have been moved back…”

    chapterS!!!!!!!!

  110. JedK
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Cristian Modesto,

    ———————-2011 – A Dance with Dragons
    2012 – A Clash of Kings
    2013 – A Storm of Swords
    2014 – A Storm of Swords
    2015 – AFFC // ADWD 2015 – The Winds of Winter
    2016 – AFFC // ADWD
    2017 – The Winds of Winter
    2018 – The Winds of Winter
    ———————–2019 – A Dream of Spring

    Reading GRRM’s blog about what it takes to create one of these books, I don’t see how it is possible for him to finish the book series in time for the TV series. I could see the TV series taking a year or two off in order give time for GRRM to write the final books.

    But, with that said…
    How many HBO Series last that long? Especially one as expensive as this one.

  111. Mr. Frey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Hot Pie: Heh, what is with GRRM horribly injuring / crippling / handicapping his characters? Major spoilers ahead, but Bran is crippled 4 life, Jaime lost his sword hand, Catelyn has like 1/5 of a throat left and is apparently a zombie, The Hound has what is most likely a perma-limp, Arya is blind, Loras is on his deathbed and IF he survives will most likely have SOME major physical handicap, Tyrion has no nose, Theon is getting flayed alive, Davos loses his damn fingers for being awsome…i’m probably missing some, but dang GRRM, especially considering that most of these are / have become sympathetic characters by the time it happens.

    And those are the survivors!

    You left out the bite scars on Brienne and the Frankenstein Gregor. Lancel is lucky to get away with a little anemia/depression.

  112. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Eleanor: Oh no! You’re right! I was looking forward to Oldtown.

    Yeah, all that Oldtown stuff last book was barely even a tease, and I was really interested to see where that story line was going…Feast even ended with an Oldtown chapter…argh, it’s going to be torture waiting for this!

  113. snakeDr
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    GRRM has mentioned before (cited by many already) that Howland Reed is one of the characters that would never have a POV. He is one of those characters that knows too much.

    (SPOILERS @ link)
    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/20115-howland-reed/page__st__20

  114. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Mr. Frey,

    Heh, I guess Jon Snow doesn’t count in that list.

  115. Astalnar
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    nixterida,

    Where did you get no Alleras/Sallera? It just says there will be no Sam chapters, nothing about Alleras.

    Hot Pie,

    SPOILER AFFC
    Do you remember in Arya’s chapters what was said about one initiate? He could not see but he could still light every candle that went out. It could be just part of her training.
    END SPOILER AFFC

  116. JRQ
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Hold on…..doesn’t one of the new POVs have to be Loras, Sandor or Mel because those were the new miniatures? Earlier in the thread, people have said George said (1) no Tyrells have a POV, (2) Mel will not have a POV. Can we confirm those statements? That would leave us with Sandor for sure, provided he is still in the running having shed the hound persona (“The Hound is dead”). You could even think of him as a “totally new” character that hasn’t been met.

  117. Drfunk
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    JedK

    Production value wise I think it’s what 6 seasons? Sopranos, Six Feet under etc.. So yeah hoping for 9+ seasons is a bit unrealistic. That said, just like how True Blood blossomed after its initial season, GoT could very well become the new flagship for HBO by next year. So production costs might get mitigated by new mediums being introduced (like HBO GO). The other thing is a lot of those series ran out of stuff to tell. Even a show like “the Wire” (my all time fav), ran out of themes after 5 seasons, Sopranos ran out of people to hit, Deadwood still had a lot to tell but was poorly managed (too much money), Six Feet Under ran out of dead people stories etc… and unlike those shows GoT will have the fuel to run 8+ seasons.

    The only thing that will stop it is once again production cost issues (like Deadwood/Rome). This time around, it seems they are much more fiscally responsible (comparing this show to Boardwalk Empire). We might whine about how the crowd at the Hand’s tourney was less epic than what we imagined, but if it means helping towards multiple seasons then so be it!

  118. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Cristian Modesto:
    If the show keeps doing well (fingers crossed), and assuming that ASOS is split into twoseasons and that the same happens with a Dance with Dragons, it might work in the end…but, of course, if we get to season 9, we probably won’t even care anymore whether they catch up with George or not. It would be like a dream come true to have 9 seasons of ASOIAF.

    TV SHOW – Books

    ———————-2011 – A Dance with Dragons
    2012 – A Clash of Kings
    2013 – A Storm of Swords
    2014 – A Storm of Swords
    2015 – AFFC // ADWD2015 – The Winds of Winter
    2016 – AFFC // ADWD
    2017 – The Winds of Winter
    2018 – The Winds of Winter
    ———————–2019 – A Dream of Spring

    IMO, it will never be more than 7 seasons. No way. What we can have is 12 Ep for some of the seasons. What you guys don’y have in mind is that it doesn’t have to be 1 season per year, some season scan be delayed to another semester to give more time for the books. So my prediction is something like:

    2011 – A Dance with Dragons
    2012 – A Clash of Kings
    2013/2014 – A Storm of Swords
    2014/2015 – AFFC // ADWD-The Winds of Winter(book)
    2016/2017 – AFFC // ADWD
    2017/2018– The Winds of Winter-A Dream of Spring(book)
    2019 – A Dream of Spring

    …hoping is free they say ;-)

    PS: And dont’ worry, Mr Martin WILL have the books in time…or you think is a coincidence he finished ADWD just in time to get advantadge of the TV show?? You know how many books he is selling atm?? Ah money money makes the world go round…

  119. JedK
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Hot Pie,

    Mr. Frey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:32 am | Permalink
    Hot Pie: Heh, what is with GRRM horribly injuring / crippling / handicapping his characters? Major spoilers ahead, but Bran is crippled 4 life, Jaime lost his sword hand, Catelyn has like 1/5 of a throat left and is apparently a zombie, The Hound has what is most likely a perma-limp, Arya is blind, Loras is on his deathbed and IF he survives will most likely have SOME major physical handicap, Tyrion has no nose, Theon is getting flayed alive, Davos loses his damn fingers for being awsome…i’m probably missing some, but dang GRRM, especially considering that most of these are / have become sympathetic characters by the time it happens.

    And those are the survivors!

    You left out the bite scars on Brienne and the Frankenstein Gregor. Lancel is lucky to get away with a little anemia/depression.

    That’s pretty funny to think about.

    Well at least they’re all living. How many characters have lost their lives in the first four books. (Not to mention that horse in last weeks episode, and a wolf :) )

  120. DH87
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    JedK: How many HBO Series last that long? Especially one as expensive as this one.

    We’ve heard good reports from media reporters that the HBO deal is one book per season.

  121. Drfunk
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano

    That’s a very cynical view. Publishers, producers etc.. may very well have lit a fire under George’s ass but to imply he’s solely doing for a bigger payday is plain ridiculous. If you bothered to follow closely in his blog, you would be able to see that he’s very VERY protective of his material. I.e he doesn’t want random fan fiction to sprout in Westeros. This has nothing to do with cashing in but everything to do with the fact that this is his baby. It’s not a stretch to say that this will be his magnum opus. Years from now, despite all the work he’s done in other literary work/mediums he’ll be measured and remembered by this very series.

    He’s a perfectionist in that sense, whereas casual writers may have succumbed to the allure of the quick payday (like Mr Jordan pumping out a book every 2 years before passing away). It’s clear he cares about the story he’s telling. So yeah I’m sure his agent/publisher/publicist/executives/producers/fans etc.. will all be pressuring him to match his books to the tv timeline. It doesn’t mean that he’ll cave in and pull out a half ass product to cash another check.

  122. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    PS: And dont’ worry, Mr Martin WILL have the books in time…or you think is a coincidence he finished ADWD just in time to get advantadge of the TV show?? You know how many books he is selling atm?? Ah money money makes the world go round…

    The conspiracy theories that GRRM somehow had the book finished and has been sitting on it so he can be a big fat money grubber are just laughable to me. He’s selling lots of books now because the show has created an increased interest in his works. Would that somehow not have been true if ADWD was already out a year or two?

  123. Prankster
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m kind of surprised so many people are writing off the idea of a “Stoneheart” POV. She fits the profile (yes, she was technically in aSoS, but her POV ended halfway through, so I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say she’s been “gone for a couple of books”) and her involvement allows the Brienne storyline to continue, even without her POV. Also, she’s a well-established POV character, so you almost have to have her back at some point.

    You might, I suppose, switch over to a different member of The Brotherhood without Banners, to achieve the same effect. And I can see the literary value of not having Stoneheart as a POV, as she’s arguably “less than human”. But still.

  124. JedK
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    We might whine about how the crowd at the Hand’s tourney was less epic than what we imagined, but if it means helping towards multiple seasons then so be it!

    I didn’t even notice the crowd, but thinking about it, it should have had a bigger crowd (but I’m OK with that). If you think of BW Empire (another show I really enjoy), there is a ton of CGI. People, and the Boardwalk are mostly CGI. There is a pretty cool YouTube video showing the making of BW Empire.

    So CGI is pretty cheap, and getting cheaper it seems. That scene with Tyion looking over the edge in his cell was obviously CGI (green screen) but looked amazing. Stick to the CGI like Boardwalk Empire and GoT can have those epic scenes and not break the bank.

    I hope you are right about the nine seasons and I hope it stays interesting.

  125. T
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Are the Ironborn going to be providing Danny their Ships?

  126. McSherrie
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    I think that GRRM might hold on to Howland Reed until the last epilogue. Clearly he wants to tie everything up – and not pull a Lost – but who’s to say he won’t hold on to the R+L=J mystery as long as possible.

  127. Cookie
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton: The conspiracy theories that GRRM somehow had the book finished and has been sitting on it so he can be a big fat money grubber are just laughable to me.He’s selling lots of books now because the show has created an increased interest in his works.Would that somehow not have been true if ADWD was already out a year or two?

    I agree wholeheartedly. But since there´re still people out there who doubt that the moonlanding ever happened, i guess we´ll just have to live with comments like this…

  128. Nick Larter
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    How about unravelling the Meereenese Knot with a Drogon PoV?

  129. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    I just thought of something…Tom O’ Sevenstrings is inside Riverrun when it changes hands in AFFC

    Could this be a character we’ve met before but never had a POV?

  130. Heroine Addict
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    ” I found the process so valuable that I’ve done the same with all my books since leaving LA. It’s the last stage of the process. Finish the book, then go through it, cutting, cutting, cutting. It produces a tighter, stronger text, I feel. In the case of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, my sweat — most of it performed after we announced the book’s publication date but before I delivered the final chapters — brought the page count down almost eighty pages all by itself.”
    - GRRM on Not A Blog

    This goes a long way to explaining how his books can be so long and still contain almost no dead weight – (the narrative kind that is).

  131. Ryan E
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Gwalchmai: William Aaron Grandy, I do not think “worse for wear”=Theon. It’s too easy to make that leap, and GRRM is crafty. Using your logic about the Hound being dead and a new character, I say the same could be said for UnCat.The other idea I could use (though I doubt it), is Davos being the “worse for wear” character as he was reported captured and killed. He is likely captured and perhaps tortured. Hey! Maybe he got his other fingers shortened so he can wear those around his neck for luck now!

    UNCAT doesn’t make sense. He said that character would have the 4th most chapters in the book…. it can’t be UnCat, because of the time-line issues. Since we know where she was at the end of AFFC, no way they can have several chapters from her point of view in ADWD that late in the book.

  132. Adrian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Prankster,

    No, her being in ASoS means it is entirely, 100% inaccurate to say she’s “been gone for a couple books.” It means she has been gone for ONE book. You can’t even say “one and a half” because her being in ASoS AT ALL means she was in it, not gone.

    And again: her last POV ended up with her being COMPLETELY CRAZY. WHAT valuable insight could POSSIBLY be provided by a mind that, immediately prior to being DEAD FOR DAYS, was absolutely batshit nuts?

    Theon: Previous POV character. Gone for a couple books. We ALREADY know he’s a viewpoint character in this book, we KNOW he’s “the worse for wear.” What is it that’s making people so desperate to just disregard plain, obvious evidence?

  133. Drfunk
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    I can’t remember the source but I distinctively recall that GRRM is bittery regretting reviving UnCAT. Going on to say we’ll never hear more about that storyline as it was never intended to bring yet another story arc. Cat ended in the Red Wedding, bringing her back just cheapened her character (in zombie form). So i seriously doubt we’ll see a PoV from UnCAT.

    So it should be Theon by default (along with the many other clues).

  134. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Guys , don’t be such a fanboys. One thing doesn’t have anything to do with ther other. If you still think thers no connection whatsoever with the pusblishing date of ADWD and the fact that the HBO TV series is airing now, you are very naive, IMO.

    Ofc Mr Martin didn’t have the book done and he waited for the release ’till now. Ofc not. But I’m sure having the TV series being done surely gave him an extra motivation to push forward with the book. And the publishers chose the best date to release the book, wich is oddly 1 month after the TV series ends. You think those guys weren’t aware of that? Please, is their job to make money

    I am telling you, you’ll see how book 6 and 7 go much more smoothly than ADWD.

    PS: Moonlanding? Really?

  135. Damphair
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who thinks/dreams/hopes the new POV will be Archmaester Marwyn, the Mage?

  136. Yoenit
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    If I was an HBO executive I would want to split up SoS for sure. Adding additional episodes to a season (say a 14 episode season for SoS) increases production costs but has no obvious financial benefits (you still sell one set of dvds and it is unlikely to increase the number of subscribers).

    However, if you split SoS in two seasons of 10 episodes you double the number of dvd sets you sell and people will have to subscribe for another year to watch the second season.

    If GOT remains profitable they will want to milk it for as long as they can and that includes splitting up the bigger books.

  137. Drfunk
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano

    I still say release of ADWD was a big coincidence. The book for the series so far will have resold regardless due to the popularity of the current TV version. So the TV show has no bearing whatsoever with the book sales. If ADWD came out next year, the show still would have done well, the previous 4 books still would have sold by the truckloads. The pressure from publishers / marketing dept is obv a factor. Martin himself is not going to be completely impervious to such things, but he has proven time and again that he really couldn’t give a @#$@ about anyone else (including the fans) until he tells the story he wants to tell. So your hypothesis that GRRM will finish books on time because it’s good for “his business” is just flat out wrong.

  138. Ser Thomas Stark
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    JRQ,

    Actually Mel is a confirmed POV for DwD, unless George changed his mind since 2009. There is only 1 of the 16 POVs unaccounted for, and it must be a completely new character.

  139. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Am I alone in my concern that the Cersei treason trial issue isn’t going to be resolved by the end of ADWD? It’s the main thread hanging from AFFC that I need to see resolved in this book. I demand a comeuppance! :)

  140. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    To be honest, I think my list of aDwD POVs in the 2nd post of this thread (EvilPicnic) still holds up as being definitive; if we maintain that all GRRM has said in his blog post to be true then it is the only logical solution.

    This talk of an UnCat POV is a bit silly for several reasons, but mainly because she just doesn’t fit in the list, what with all the characters that GRRM has confirmed and the clues (such as 3 Ironborn and 2 Dornish) that he’s provided.

    So I would basically like to steer the conversation towards who this 16th POV is.

    I think we can safely assume that it’s a completely new character (a la Quentyn Martell) based on the fact that GRRM wrote ‘new CHARACTERS’ plural. But might it be someone mentioned before? And If not, what area/type of character do we think it will be?

  141. Ivan Popić
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    I agree that a returning character who is worse for wear means Theon (or Reek as he is called in that sample chapter). However, I’m not so sure Areo Hotah is the old Dornish character, Arianne could be it as well now that her father has shared with her that he was secretly plotting with Targaryens all this time.
    We will definitely get a closure of some sort on Cersei because she and Jaime have chapters (plural) and I certainly hope Brienne’s cliffhanger will get resolved.

    However, to all who are hoping for a Doom of Iron Islands I don’t think that will likely happen. If the visions Dany saw in House of the Undying ones are true her second husband will be a Greyjoy. I also think she will marry him in order to get the best navy in the world with which she will launch a surprise attack by using Iron Fleet to cross the Sunset Sea and arrive in Westeros from the West (which nobody did before). Best navy in Westeros+Unsullied (best foot soldiers in the world)+remains of her Khalasar (best calvary in the world)+only 3 dragons in the world=one hell of a army with which to recapture the Iron Throne.
    Of course, this is all just my theory and Martin could have completely different plans with the direction of the story but this is what I’ll think will happen. However, she will have to get going to the Westeros sooner then later if Martin thinks to wrap it all up in 7 books like he plans to.

  142. Markus Ecker
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    After reading most the speculation here i like the possible Ser Gregor POV most, probably to fight for Cersei ? otherwise to find out whats going on at the dreadfort and with the Greyjoys in the north: how about Howland Reed himself as POV Ladys and Gentlemen?

  143. ogbebaba
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    I distinctly remember GRRM saying flat out that we will never see a lady stone heart POV (I am at work someone do a so spoke marten search, its in there somewhere)

  144. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Astalnar: Where did you get no Alleras/Sallera? It just says there will be no Sam chapters, nothing about Alleras.

    There’s only 2 Dornish PoVs. She can’t be the old PoV as she’s never had a PoV and the new Dornish PoV is Quentyn Martell.

    Unless of course GRRM isn’t classing her as Dornish due to her Mother.

  145. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Ivan Popić

    “Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS”

  146. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    patryn0: I wonder, is he referring to Cat?

    theon?

    So:
    1)jon
    2)dany
    3)tyrion
    4)old-missed POV: theon (also, iron island #3)
    5)iron island #1: asha
    6)iron island #2: victarion
    7)prologue
    8)epilogue
    9)cersei
    10)jaime
    11)barristan (new POV #1)
    12)melisandre (new POV #2)
    13)new POV #3 also new dornish POV also dornish POV #2: quentyn martell
    14)new POV #4: no idea. likey someone related to dany’s storyline. missandei? the mage?
    15)dornish POV: areo hotah
    16)bran

  147. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Ivan Popić:
    I’m not so sure Areo Hotah is the old Dornish character, Arianne could be it as well now that her father has shared with her that he was secretly plotting with Targaryens all this time.

    What part of this quote from GRRM’s blog post don’t you understand? (I’ve even bolded the relevant name.)

    “Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Several of those characters had chapters written, completed, and polished that have been moved into THE WINDS OF WINTER.”

    Areo Hotah is the only possible old Dorne POV left.

  148. Mr. Frey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Yoenit,

    After the first season, I assume that HBO will stop thinking 1 season = 1 book. I think they’ll budget how many episodes they want in a season, and then aim at good stopping points and cliffhangers. Since so many stories are independent, they’ll be able to make Books 2 and 3 rather fungible. There is very little connective tissue between Arya’s, Jon’s, Dany’s, Bran’s, and Tyrion’s timelines. I think you can freely move story between 2 and 3 without damaging the overall story.

    I rather expect that Bran’s and Dany’s stories will not resemble the books at all (aside from Bran escapes Winterfell and travels North, and Dany builds an army). I think the War of the Five Kings will be the only major plot point that must follow the timeline of the books.

    But, I’m not a purist.

  149. JRQ
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    SO, 16 total POVs, 12 old: (1) Jon, (2) Dany, (3) Tyrion, (4) Arya, (5), Bran, (6) Theon, (7) Asha, (8) Victarion, (9) Areo Hotah, (10) Cersei, (11) Jaime have all been confirmed either directly or by deduction. The 12th almost certainly is Davos, as Sansa, Sam, Arianne, Aeron, Brienne are out.

    Then, of the four new POVs, we have (1) Barristan, (2) Mel, and (3) Quentyn confirmed. If we take seriously that GRRM’s plural “new characters” means more than one new person who hasn’t been met, then so far, Quentyn is the only one who fits. That means the 4th new mystery character is someone we haven’t met. So no UnCat, no Marwyn, no Osha, no Sarella/Alleras.

    Also, he says these 16 don’t include the prologue and epilogue characters.

  150. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Bryan:
    The 16 POV characters in ADWD:

    16. ?????????????????? (new POV)

    I would suggest that there are two POVs which make sense:

    1 – Marwyn the Mage: This is the Arch Maester from the Citadel who departed for Slaver’s Bay at the end of AFFC. If he does arrive in Mereen, it is quite possible that he is the new POV. Marwyn would be a very interesting choice for GRRM to select, as Marwyn is one of the few “wise” in Westeros who actually has a clue as to what’s going on in terms of magic and the supernatural.

    We already will have a view into the mind of a Shadowbinder and Priestess of the Red God with Melisandre being a viewpoint character in ADwD, so Marwyn is a real possibility.

    2-Varys: Varys is busy in the Free Cities whilst Tyrion moves (supposedly) towards Slavers Bay. As Varys has now been removed from the centre of all plots in King’s Landing, and as he is presumably not as “uber-informed” when it comes to the Free Cities of Essos, this could be an intersting way of telling the tale in the Free Cities without having the viewpoint of a character who “knows too much.” Varys in King’s Landing is a POV that is too spoilerific, as Lord Varys of the Small Coucil knows too much. The FORMER Lord Varys, now on the run in the Free Cities is, otoh, a character who would be a very interesting POV and does not “know too much” in the sense of spoiling the tale.

    Of the new POVs, these two would seem to be the most likely candidates for the ONE missing new POV. While I would have doubted the suitability of Marwyn especially, the fact that GRRM is providing Melisandre as a new POV pretty much blows open the doors of “don’t let people see how magic works from inside the caster’s head” rule which seems to have been in place in the series so far.

    As with all things, the series has moved on and with Book 5, the lobster has been in the pot for a while and GRRM is confortable to turn up the heat a notch.

  151. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    varys knows too much. like LF, he will never be a POV (i think martin himself said it, but i can’t provide any reference right now)

  152. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    ??? fun.

    Gendry would be a good POV.. he could shed light on Brienne as she reveals to him her suspicions about his parentage as well as further clarifying the Beric/ Thoros / Stoneheart interaction..
    Marwyn would be a good POV..he could educate Dany and us at the same time.. ( and a Marwyn / Tyrion conversation would be something…)
    Theon IS the worse for wear.
    I’m sort of hoping for Alleras.. for his / her own sake and to keep tabs on Sam, ( Gilly , or is she at sea with Marwyn and the Summer Islanders ?) and whatever Pate/ Jaqen / (Syrio?) is up to..
    Osha /Rickon would be good..*sigh* I probably need to face up to the probability that ther aren’t enough POV’s to go around to reveal everything I want to know NOW..;)

  153. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici,

    The Prologue and Epilogue are not part of the 16 PoV’s

  154. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    ok, so.. if it’s 18 including epilogue and prologue

    So:
    1)jon
    2)dany
    3)tyrion
    4)old-missed POV: theon (also, iron island #3)
    5)iron island #1: asha
    6)iron island #2: victarion
    7)prologue (varamyr six skins)
    8)epilogue (who?)
    9)cersei
    10)jaime
    11)barristan (new POV #1)
    12)melisandre (new POV #2)
    13)new POV #3 also new dornish POV also dornish POV #2: quentyn martell
    14)new POV #4: no idea. likey someone related to dany’s storyline. missandei? the mage?
    15)dornish POV: areo hotah
    16)bran
    17)davos
    18)arya

    here we go!

  155. JRQ
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    As I mentioned above, if GRRM’s hint means there is more than one new POV characters we haven’t met, then the only remaining unconfirmed of the 16 (Elena’s #14 in the post just above) has to be a new character we haven’t met. If so, it cannnot be Osha, Marwyn, Sarella, Varys, Gendry, Missandei et al.

  156. Lex
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    So… this thread looks really spoilery! I’m not sure if I want to read it…

    Argh…!

  157. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    xD. it’s not a preview, lex, come on.

  158. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I was thinking Marwyn but thought that maybe he would be one PoV too many over in Mereen, still GRRM did say it was complicated.

    Never really thought of a Varys PoV, would be very interesting though.

    Of course if we take GRRMs words that “Some” of the four new PoVs are New Chaarcters means more than One is (and we’ve guessed all the PoVs correctly) then the unkown one has to be a new character so that rules out Marwyn and Varys.

  159. Ivan Popić
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    EvilPicnic: “Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS”

    Missed that bit, then it must be Areo…

  160. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I think Marwyn is the one I’d most like to see..he knows so much, and has had past interactions with other characters ,like Thoros, e.g., and if he has access to a glass candle…

  161. Lex
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici,

    Previews for the show are one thing… but we only get a new book every 5 years! I feel like I want to go into it as unspoiled as possible.

  162. Brian Baldinger
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    I recommend strongly AGAINST reading this post, even if you’re all caught up. It contains ADWD spoilers. Why the hell would he do that?!

  163. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici,:

    Varys knows too much. like LF, he will never be a POV (i think martin himself said it, but i can’t provide any reference right now)

    I am inclined to agree with you. The only reason I did offer it was because Varys is now out of King’s Landing. Otherwise, I completely agree.

    I might add that of all the characters that Arya Stark might interact with who would recognize her and know her for who she is — and recognize what she is now becoming and be justifiably concerned at the implications? That character is Varys. Moreover, Varys is also currently the most likely character to encounter her in Bravos.

    It would not at all surprise me to discover that Magister Illyrio and Varys are somehow involved with the House of Black and White in some capacity in terms of their overall goals, (which goals remain mostly inscrutable). So I could see such a meeting/recognition happening logically within the narrative structure of the books to date.

    Now *that* is a chapter I would love to read — no matter the perspective!

    I would also add that of all the characters in the series to date who could wind up Arya like a little marching Avatar of Death and set her whirring and clanking down a tragic path of vengeance and destruction? That “winder-upper” would be Varys.

    The possibilities are almost endless and would be extremely entertaining.

  164. Drfunk
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    I just love how GRRM is toying with us till the very end. People complained that the TV ruined the small nuances that got lost (like making Renly/Loras blatantly obv), I’m assuming it’ll be the same for Roose Bolton / Robb at the red wedding. Even now, he very well could have given us a complete list of PoV’s and we easily could have debated for hours as to who will be doing what. Instead he gives us a bunch of riddles to figure out the remaining PoV’s. The man is an evil genius. I’ve no doubt we’ll be debating over and over as to the identity of the final PoV’s (reminds me of the last cylon identities in BSG).

    Still hoping the last mysterious PoV is someone completely random to start yet another story arc. Jaqen or w/e his real name is returning would be epic.

  165. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Mormegil,

    ;)..I don’t think we can necessarily take George’s “Some” to imply a number. He does like to keep us guessing even when he’s explaining things.

  166. JMMelo
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Ok… A friend of mine sent me this, and I had nowhere to post this, and here is as good a place as any.

    Jaime and Tyrion as a singing duo, when they where younger

    Even Cercei seems to be enjoying the happy times!

    Now, if we can just find a way to get NCW, Lena Headley and Peter Dinklage to re-enact this…

  167. RitariKnight
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    JRQ:
    The 12th almost certainly is Davos, as Sansa, Sam, Arianne, Aeron, Brienne are out.

    Well, considering that GRRM has read at least one Davos chapter from ADwD at his appearances in recent years, then I’d say it is beyond confirmed.

    We know for a fact 15 of the 16 POV’s in ADwD. Who the one unknown is, is probably impossible to guess, since it’s most probably a previously unknown character. Also the epilogue character is a mystery, although there is maybe one hint at who it might be as already mentioned in one post above. We’ll find out in July, which is just fine by me.

  168. JRQ
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Argghhh…is this book still almost two gods-damned months away? Ok, I give up. Folks, help a brother out — what do I read in the meantime?

  169. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    ok :D

  170. Liesie
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Actually I don’t have anything to add to this discussion, and I think I’m just going to read and find out ;) but I just couldn’t resist the chance to write a comment on WiC with my grindpa’s IPad :p

  171. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    JRQ:
    Argghhh…is this book still almost two gods-damned months away? Ok, I give up.Folks, help a brother out — what do I read in the meantime?

    I recommend The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie for those looking for some GRRM inspired grim ‘n grittiness to tide them over till July 12., 2011.

    Link is here.

  172. Aldaris
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter:
    How about unravelling the Meereenese Knot with a Drogon PoV?

    :-)
    Yes, I can see it already. “Slept some. Woke up. Flew around some. Barbequed something. Ate it. Slept some more. Mom is scolding me. Ignoring her. Life is awesome.”

  173. Franny Bee
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Winter is Coming,
    I love the new mobile version of the site SO much. Way easier to load and read (iPhone) TY TY!

  174. MUGger
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    EvilPicnic,
    I think that an UnCat POV would be little better than a Hodor POV. “KILL all Freys! KILL all Lannisters! KILL, KILL, KILL!” I can’t image much more than that going on in that character’s head.

  175. Voitto Rintala
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    I think I found some info on the missing last POV from the publisher Bantam Dell webpage. From the description of the book. It says:

    But Daenerys has thousands of enemies, and many have set out to find her. As they gather, one young man embarks upon his own quest for the queen, with an entirely different goal in mind.

    This would indicate some unknown new young male character (with mysterious motives) since I believe Quentyn is the elder son and his motives are talked about if AFFC (unless there s some kind of a surprise coming).

  176. Mr. Frey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    MUGger,

    A Hodor POV would be very Faulkneresque

    Faulkner’s As I Lay Dying, has a chapter of just 5 words : “My mother is a fish.” GRRM could top that by 4 whole words! It could be an homage to Perec’s La Disparition too! It would be very post-modern.

    Assuming Hodor lives through ADWD — I want a Hodor chapter!

  177. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    JMMelo: Ok… A friend of mine sent me this, and I had nowhere to post this, and here is as good a place as any. Jaime and Tyrion as a singing duo, when they where youngerEven Cercei seems to be enjoying the happy times!Now, if we can just find a way to get NCW, Lena Headley and Peter Dinklage to re-enact this…

    This version is even better. Same Video different lyrics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7aGFrVSTAY

    We find out exactly what Jaime really thinks of Cesei.

  178. Kana
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Dubrovsky:
    Eleanor,

    The infamous knot was probably resolved by adding Barristan as a POV.

    GRRM also said at some point that Melisandre will never be a POV, for the same reason. At this point I woudn’t trust anything GRRM says during the writing. The finished product will be perfect no matter what, and the more surprises the book has for the reader the better.

    Of course as we’ve seen multiple times by now, although Mel is really good with the TEXT of the prophecies, when it comes to interpreting what they actually mean her track record is, uh, rather lacking.

  179. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Franny Bee, oh cool. It is very much a soft-launch right now. Activated it but still haven’t been able to test it extensively. Glad it works so far!

  180. mike mcgarvey
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    patryn0,

    Theon Greyjoy

  181. Starky Stark
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    My guess:
    Cersei isn’t in the book for long because she is beheaded…or whatever they do to huge sinners at the sept…case in point, she’s a goner

  182. Kieriyn
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Melissandre is only in because of the minatures, correct? Well if Sandor (ie, not the Hound) is in as a POV, then wouldn’t that take Melissandre out of the running?

    So then Archmaester Marwyn, the Mage can enter as a source of magical knowledge, as well as helping to untangle the Meeranese knot that is Dany’s plot lines (as he was heading there at the end of AFFC). Or maybe as that is the *end* of Feast, he’ll show up at the end of Dance and be the epilogue character?

    It would be really interesting to get inside Marwyn’s head as he might tell us if Pate =J’H, as well as maybe bring J’H to dany’s side of the world.

  183. Mormegil
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Kieriyn: Melissandre is only in because of the minatures, correct? Well if Sandor (ie, not the Hound) is in as a POV, then wouldn’t that take Melissandre out of the running?

    According to Westeros.org GRRM confirmed Mel as a PoV at a convention in 2009. I presume this is different to the miniture speculation as that was on his Not a Blog wasn’t it?

  184. Tom Hilton
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    I write with WordStar on a DOS machine, so that number is my own page count.

    That may be taking medieval historical verisimilitude a little too far.

  185. greenie88
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Starky Stark:
    Cersei isn’t in the book for long because she is beheaded…or whatever they do to huge sinners at the sept…case in point, she’s a goner

    I doubt it if GRRM wants to stick to the Maggie the Frog prophecy. Tommen and Myrcella would have to die first–and Tyrion or Jaime would have to do the honors

  186. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Starky Stark,

    Here is my wild, AFFC spoiling theory about Jaime and Cersei. They both die. Jaime changes his mind and decides to return to King’s Landing to answer Cersei’s call. Not out of love for her, but because he realizes he’ll never get his old life back. He’s no warrior with one hand, Cersei has betrayed him and their love is gone, his father is dead, his brother is missing and accused of murdering Jaime’s own father and son. Jaime decides to fight as Cersei’s champion, knowing he can’t win, but that at least he can go out fighting and die a warrior’s death, and in the process pay Cersei back for her betrayal. Jaime dies, Cersei is beheaded because of the actions (or inactions) of the valonquar, and the Lannisters go the way of the Starks: scattered and powerless. Though I have a feeling Tyrion will be building a new life for himself in the service of a certain Targaryan.

    Of course for this to happen and fulfill the prophecy, Tomman will have to die, and Myrcella will have to be crowned and then die. There is certainly room in a book the size of ASOS for these things to happen. Whether they will, we’ll find out in two months.

  187. Nigel Bradley
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    I would love to see a two page Hodor chapter:

    Hodor, hodor ho hodor… Hodor? … Hodor!

  188. MikeFromBraavos
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    I always laugh when I see people say things like “character X cannot be a POV because he/she knows too much”.

    Uh, hello… Ned was a POV character and GRRM still managed to keep Jon’s parentage from leaking out of his thoughts and onto the page.

    Why couldn’t he do that with Varys or Peyter or any other character??

    I realize that GRRM himself may have been the first to use that excuse – but the man does have a history of being coy/clever with his answers.

  189. Starky Stark
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    greenie88,

    Ahhh, I totally forgot about the Frog prophecies. Maybe she’ll last a while yet…

  190. Eleanor
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Tom Hilton: That may be taking medieval historical verisimilitude a little too far.

    :D

  191. dizzy_34
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: Franny Bee, oh cool. It is very much a soft-launch right now. Activated it but still haven’t been able to test it extensively. Glad it works so far!

    Cool! I finally got WiC back on my phone. That’s great man.

  192. MUGger
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    Nigel Bradley,

    My Hodor POV chapter is much different: “As he watched the White Walker approach, Hodor searched desperately for a word — a concept — to describe both the beauty and horror of the color-shifting armor, the seemingly delicate, yet deadly ice sword, and the brilliant azure eyes glaring at him with malice and anticipation. Suddenly, it came to him — an idea that communicated all his fear and awe. With firm resolve, he shouted “Hodor!” and saw understanding dawn in the creature’s unearthly eyes…”

  193. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    greenie88,

    I don’t think Maggy the Frog specified whose little brother.. if in fact “little brother ” isn’t a slightly misleading translation of valonqar..

  194. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    ahem.
    kevan lannister will do the deed

  195. Ingrin
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    For those speculating Cersei and Jamie’s demise. I would imagine Cersei and Jamie aren’t featured much in aDwD because they had more chapters than Arya in AFFC (Cersei more than 10, Jamie around 7 and Arya(and pseudonym) only 3 or so. Inverting the logic would imply Arya must have died in AFFC because she *only* had 3 chapters.
    I think more progress was made in AFFC for the twins in terms of story timeline, so the rest of the characters need to play catchup.

  196. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici,

    I agree that’s a very strong possibility. I lean that way most of the time.

    George’s tricksy habits just make me occasionally go..wait a minute, what about all the other kinds of brothers..brothers of various orders..?

  197. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is technically her little brother.

  198. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture,

    Yes, but..even if his hands were long and white , he only has one now…still maggy’s description could be a metaphor for another kind of death.

    And there’s always the possibility that I mis-remember the quote..someone else has my book , right now. ;)

  199. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    Yes, but I always took the “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you” to be metaphorical. Clearly she isn’t literally going to drown in her tears, so I don’t think she is literally going to be choked to death either. I take it to mean that through some action of the valonqar, she will lose her life. At this point I think all signs point to Jaime, though I am the first person to acknowledge that George is full of surprises.

  200. Marta
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    What if Martin only pulls a prank on us? Maybe he just wanted for us to play until the book comes out so we can be surprised by his choice of POVs. And when he says something about new character getting a POV – that could be anyone mentioned in the last books who altered his/her personality…

  201. coltaine777
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Sareeta: I hope when he says no Brienne, Sam, and Sansa he just means no chapter from their POV but we will find out what’s happening with them from maybe another character’s POV? I’m dying to know what happened to Brienne and intrigued about Sam and Sansa. Oh well. Must wait until July to find out. Can’t freaking wait!!!!

    I’m hoping the same…

  202. Ed
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    You say that like it’s a bad thing.

    MUGger:
    EvilPicnic,
    I think that an UnCat POV would be little better than a Hodor POV. “KILL all Freys! KILL all Lannisters! KILL, KILL, KILL!” I can’t image much more than that going on in that character’s head.

  203. Wastrel
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Eurghhh… massives of Jon (oh god), masses of Dany (OH GOD), bigs chunks of Theon (eurghh).

    Tyrion good. Some Arya chapters. No LF, it seems; not a lot of Jaime.

    Just Dornishfolk and Ironborn.

    Going to be another difficult one to get through.

    ——-

    A bold prediction: After ADWD, there will be at least THREE more books, and perhaps even four. The story is just out of control now, and Martin has little ability to analyse or predict his own writing, as we’ve discovered over the previous decade.

    Here’s three good reasons to worry:

    First: look at the POVs. We started out with 8, and then had 9, and then had 10, and then had 12, and now will have 16 – with another 4 waiting off-screen! Even if they all just have 2 chapters each to wrap up their fates, that’s half a novel right there!

    Second: look at how POVs are now being created. It’s not just that Martin is dealing with a larger story now – he’s no longer in control of his characters. Take the Dornish and Greyjoy characters. Originally, they weren’t needed. Then he decided he’d need viewpoints there. Then he realised he’d “need” six characters there – that is, as many characters as he needed for the whole of AGOT minus Dany and the Wall – but would keep them confined to the prologue. Then the prologue got too big and became chapters. Then the chapters spread out over the book – and now half of those characters are still hanging around a book later, and others probably have chapters in the book after that [it's likely that either arianne or aeron will be in TWOW given this last blog post, particularly if, as expected, Victarion and Asha both leave the islands]. Or another example: Barristan gets added for a couple of chapters to resolve a plot difficulty. It no longer feels as though these decisions are all worked out in advance, but rather as though decisions are made on an ad hoc basis as they arrive. That’s probably not good for quality, but it’s definitely not good for keeping to deadlines (in terms of years OR wordcounts).

    Third: huge issues arose out of nowhere in AFFC – the ironborn, the dornish machinations, the importance of religion, the role of the maesters, etc; it’s likely that with so much time in the east and the north, other new issues will probably arise, but the issues from AFFC will barely be touched on, going by POV lists. And we’ve still got this great big void in the story in the shape of the Tyrells. The broadest part of the story shouldn’t be bringing up big issues and then not exploring them – the bringing up of things should have been over by now.

    Fourth: Parris said there’d be seven before the split happened. With one of those seven split into two, that makes eight.

    Fifth: There were originally going to be three books – the first book has become five, but we’re to believe the second and third will still be one book each? I accept that the first book had to be the biggest, so I’m not expecting another ten, but… really no expansion of the middle and end of the story?

    Sixth: After that there were going to be five. And then six, and then a book that wasn’t even going to exist at all, in between the main parts of the story, has ended up being 2500 pages – split in two once, and almost split in two a second time as well! But the next two books, they’ll be absolutely as expected…

  204. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel,

    Unless I read ADWD and conclude that it is as disappointing as AFFC, I am going to continue to look forward to it and hope to see the series getting back on track.

    You can say “nay” all you want. :)

  205. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel,

    I’d rather look forward to the book coming out then worry about all the ways it could go wrong.

  206. darksofa
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    I’m wondering how… gruesome this book will be, because if everyone who’s a POV in DANCE survives, he’ll have roughly 25 active and different POV characters. That’s going to require yet another book split if he wants them all in WINDS OF WINTER. Of course, he can always end a character’s POV without killing them, but that might be unsatisfying in many ways.

  207. Emma
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    No Sansa, and only a little Jaime. :(

    Ah well, at least we get Tyrion, Dany and Arya.

    God, I’m an ungrateful wretch. No more frowny faces! ADWD is FINISHED and comes out this summer! Stop complaining, Emma!

  208. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture,

    Ahhh… you had the quote.

    I agree it could easily be metaphor. Even so , I’m thinking Jamie might be too predictable ( though not to Cersei)..and mostly lean toward a different set of siblings.

  209. morbiczer
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel,

    I fully agree. GRRM has lost control of the story after ASOS as evidenced by the seemingly endless list of POVs. He simply loves his characters and his world too much, and can’t concentrate on what is really important for the main story line.

    Not sure the series will be ever finished at all.

  210. maxlongstreet
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel, please go somewhere else and read something else. If you think it’s going to be so difficult to get through, go read one of the other literally millions of novels available on the market today.

  211. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    morbiczer: Wastrel, I fully agree. GRRM has lost control of the story after ASOS as evidenced by the seemingly endless list of POVs. He simply loves his characters and his world too much, and can’t concentrate on what is really important for the main story line.Not sure the series will be ever finished at all.

    Hey, I can relate, I love the characters and the world too much myself.

    And I’ll bet if you polled 10 different fans about “what is really important for the main story line” you’d get 10 different answers. I mean wasn’t Wastrel complaining about too many Jon and Dany chapters above? Jeez louise, if any two characters could be agreed upon to be central to “what’s really important” it would be them.

  212. Adrian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    Seriously, how could anyone consider Jon and Dany and now crazy mutilated Theon hanging out with the Boltons to be “hard to get through?”

    Hard to get through is Sam on a boat for chapter and chapters and chapters dealing with a whiny woman and a whiny baby and his whiny self. It’s Greyjoy after Greyjoy after Greyjoy who no one cares about and Martell after Hotah after Oakhart and the introduction of the goddamn Darkstar.

    Coupled with your absolute insane views on chairs, I bet you’re a goddamn blast to hang out with

  213. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel,

    morbiczer,

    ;) Ohyes! GRRM has done a really terrible job so far. He’s gone off the rails , no question.

    Of course we don’t really know what story he’s trying to tell ,therefore , nor do we know how best to tell it , but it’s obvious he’s lost it and will never finish.

    Time to clutch our towels and try not to panic !

    The book has ,what, 75 chapters ? Of 16 POV’s , 3 comprise half the book . So the next biggest chunk ( Theon) might be as few as 3 chapters…some of the remaining 12 POV’s may have as few as 1.

    We also don’t know how far ahead he is with WoW thanks to all the moving of chapters , etc..but if ADWD took 5 yrs , we obviously should assume maybe we’ll get WoW in no less than a decade , if at all.

    We need to get a grip !

  214. Adam Wing
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    What about Pod? How awesome would that be?! We’d definitely learn Brienne’s answer then.

  215. Lars
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    morbiczer:
    Wastrel,

    I fully agree. GRRM has lost control of the story after ASOS as evidenced by the seemingly endless list of POVs. He simply loves his characters and his world too much, and can’t concentrate on what is really important for the main story line.

    Not sure the series will be ever finished at all.

    I think we should wait until after we have read ADWD to make that judgement. Since according to GRRM, ADWD is *the central* point of his story which contained the famous “knot”, it should be clearer to see after seeing where the story is at the end of it.

    and BTW… Thanks a lot to whomever at the site enabled the mobile-friendly theme. For an iPhone user such as myself, it makes reading the site a lot easier! :) :) :)

  216. Lex
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Esme/Ros is on the front page of HBO’s Game of Thrones site. Can someone get us a direct link to the image?

    Confession: I’ve kind of fallen in love with Esme. I think she’s the most attractive female character in the show so far.

  217. Lex
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    Oh, here’s the link. I guess we’ll be seeing more of Ros after all.

  218. Tre Svatek
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    I want to also say how much I love the new mobile updates! So much easier for me to browse my favorite site while passing the hours wherever I am.

    As for GRRM losing hisway, I have loved his story up to this point. I am not about to start doubting him now.

  219. Tre Svatek
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    I want to also say how much I love the new mobile updates! So much easier for me to browse my favorite site while passing the hours wherever I am.

    As for GRRM losing his way, I have loved his story up to this point. I am not about to start doubting him now.

  220. Harry Hogg
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    I can’t wait. Been re-reading the series, currently on SoS BaG, and its reminded me how much I love ASOIAF. Can’t wait for Jon, Tyrion and Dany, going to be epic. As for this unknown POV don’t you lot think that a Howland Reed POV would finally reveal the truth about the death of Lyanna and the true parentage of Jon?
    After all he is the only one still alive who knows the truth.

  221. Harry Hogg
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    As for GRRM losing control I really don’t care if it he splits Winds of Winter and a Dream of Spring into 5 books each and takes him 20 years to write them. As long as he finishes before he dies I can wait, I mean he’s no spring chicken anymore.

  222. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Man, I loved A Feast for Crows. I kind of hope the series goes longer. Martin’s writing is simply superior to most of the other crap that’s out there.

    Nine books? Assuming he lives, yes please.

  223. Elena Amici
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Oh, here’s the link. I guess we’ll be seeing more of Ros after all.

    i’m sure that ros will take over the character of
    of kyra, theon’s mistress in book 2

  224. paulgude
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici,

    I’m thinking the same thing.

  225. obsidian
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Me too. .. but I hope she doesn’t get taken over by you-know-who

  226. paulgude
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    MUGger,

    Well done.

  227. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Wastrel:

    Fourth: Parris said there’d be seven before the split happened. With one of those seven split into two, that makes eight.

    Parris believed it would be seven when George said “six”. As a result of the split, George acknowledged she was right. You are going too far here.

  228. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    No accounting for taste I guess. I can’t get me enough Greyjoy personally, I love their story line. Martell story is much better on my current read through AFFC, which has me loving that book as much as the others. Of course the Jon/Tyrion/Arya triad are fabulous and I want more Bran/Brienne (not to mention the other POVs) but, man oh man are folks being a little too precious about “their” story. It’s GRRM’s story, remember, and we’ve all agreed that the story is bewitching, so give him some credit and let him tell his story. In 20 years new readers will be able to read without any wait for a next installment and cheers to them but it’s exciting to be alive while it’s still being created. I don’t presume to tell others how to read or how to feel about what they read, but fierce, negative rhetoric is just begging for an “I told you so” from GRRM defenders later on (or maybe vice versa). While I’m in the moment reading these books, I remember why I got hooked and I find no chapters to be lacking the same verve of composition that I first saw in chapter 1 of book 1. History will be the judge. Diatribe over.

  229. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 20, 2011 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Hey guys. I’m abut to start reading this thread from the top down. While I’m doing so, I figured I’d give you all something to do while you breathlessly wait for my input here. So, I’ve placed a new poll up at http://www.lordnedsheadlines.blogspot.com asking what your favorite original scene for the first half of the season was.
    Please give it a vote if you can and feel free to comment on any scenes I might have missed!

  230. Remy
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    dizzy_34,

    Are you thinking that the new Pate “pigboy” who Sam met at the end of Feast is actually Jaqen H’ghar? and will be the new POV

  231. Nigel Tufnel
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Looks like we wait a bit longer to find out the infamous word Brienne shouted out. And no Sansa, which probably means no Littlefinger!

    Guys, just because those characters don’t have a POV, doesn’t mean they aren’t in the book. There are others present who could heard what Brienne said (including a certain unseen someone in the background), and who says Petyr himself doesn’t have a POV?

  232. purplejilly
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Lex,
    Does that have anything to do with the fact that she’s always naked, every time you see her? :P

  233. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Do you think a new POV could be Syrio?

  234. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    How about Tom Sevenstrings for a new PoV? Depending on the timeline, he could be around to resolve the Brienne “single word” mystery. He is also at the walls of Riverrun to tell the story there Its probably a bit unlikely, but I sure as seven hells would love to see him as a PoV!

    Speculating about the epilogue, how about Jorah captured and killed by one of the Ironborn after revealing information about Dany told through a Jorah PoV?

    As to the scheduling issues and GRRMs slow writing, I really would like to believe that the unique issues involved first with splitting the book in two and secondly the Mereenese knot made his admitedly slow production rate grind down exponentially slower. Plus, George never seemed particularly worried about pressure from the fans (and I guess he shouldn’t have been). However, pressure from the network could do lots to light a fire under his creative process. There’s nothing like a non-self-imposed deadline to keep someone amped up and focused on the task at hand. However unintentionally, to some degree, HBO might have made GRRM its bitch.

  235. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    No way in hell, but if it were I’d find George and walk around behind him throwing winter rose petals wherever he went for the rest of my days.

  236. purplejilly
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    Wastrel,
    I would say you are right on this one, but you are forgetting one thing.. GRRM’s secret superpower of being able to kill off beloved main characters suddenly and with no warning. I would caution people not to get attached too much to anyone in those new viewpoints because before you know it, they could be gone..

  237. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    haha, I would be right there with you, but GRRM has not left a loose end yet and I don’t think he will leave that “loose end” without some explanation but I agree, probably not a pov.

  238. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    Oddly enough, I believe we’ll get somehwat of a final answer on the Syrio debate in episode 8. Miltos has hinted at a little surprise.

  239. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    My attempt at an UnCat PoV

    “Hate! Sorrow! Kill them all! My Babies…all dead. Die! Kill! The bells! The jingling bells! Robb! Bran! Rickon!….Ned…….Make them pay!” Make them all pay! Stop the bells!!!! Lecherous traitor! False knight. String her up. Kill. Vengeance!!!!!….oh…the bells…”

    As you can see, while it might be a passingly difficult writing excercise, I doubt it would make for engaging reading.

  240. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    I for one wish that as we get closer to release we get a definitive PoV list and chapter count for each. I don’t really see how it spoils much and I want to start working on an ADWD playlist for my read through!

  241. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    Lex,
    Does that have anything to do with the fact that she’s always naked, every time you see her?

    In all seriousness, the nudity has nothing to do with it. Of course she’s got a great body, but I love Esme’s face. And her voice, and her hair. :)

  242. Josh
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    No SAM!!! YAY!
    No Brienne, BOO!! A decade long cliffhanger really loses it’s edge when it’s revealed. Hopefulyl though we don’t have a Brienne chapter we still learn what happened to her. I’m not even that huge of a fan of hers but still, it just hurts the pacing if we learn ten years later she’s okay(though to be fair I read the book only 6 months ago but still :-p…I’m not expecting anything less than five years for book 6(so I’m not disappointed :D).

    A bit upset we won’t get Sansa because again, pacing wise, it’s a disservice to the character. She’s on an upwards slope in development and now we won’t hear from her for another five years? I was hoping for one or two.

    Three ironborn, I think I knew who they are but still not excited. I hate those guys.

    BUT everything else sounds good. Glad we’ll be catching up with Ceresei and Jamie as well as Tyrion, can’t wait to see what Bran’s up too, can’t wait to see some more Dornish stuff, so excited!

  243. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    OT, but I really enjoyed OtakuAssemble’s review of Pirates of the Caribbean 4.

    Larry pretty much hated the film. But his rant about “bullshit 3D films” from 16:27 all the way to the end, is awesome. :)

  244. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    Lex

    Have you heard Larry on the latest Podcast of Ice and Fire? They got him on as a special guest and have him expound some of his opinions in addition to their normal schtick. It’s so good… :)

    And I completely agree about his 3D thing; I was unwillingly dragged along to see the Pirates film by a lady-friend a few days ago, but luckily managed to insist that we see it in 2D. 3D is such a con. I do hope they don’t 3Dify GoT at some point…

  245. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    Also, so apparently the Rapture is happening today (???)

    Well, for me this is bad for two reasons:
    a) we’ll miss this week’s GoT, and b) George missed out on releasing aDwD on time (i.e. before the end of time) by just under two months. So close! I mean, how sucky is that? ;)

  246. SugarVampire
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    My take on number of Chapters each POV will have in ADwD :

    Meereen POVs (31 Chapters)

    Dany 13
    Barristan Selmy 3
    Tyrion 10
    Quentyn Martell 3
    Victarion 2

    The North POVs (31 Chapters)

    Theon (Reek) 6
    Asha 4
    Davos 3
    Osha (speculation) (unidentified new POV) 2
    Jon 12
    Melissandre 4

    Other Area POVs (11 Chapters)

    Bran 4
    Arya 2
    Jaime 2
    Cersei 2
    Areo 1

    Prologue – Varamyr Sixskins (Skinchanger north of the Wall)

    Epilogue – (speculation) a Faith’s Militant/Pilgrim journey through Riverland to (King’s Landing / Eyrie) with the re-introduction of Sandor Celgane accompanied with the news of (Robert Arryn’s death/ Harrod Harddyn’s impending wedding of Alayne).

  247. Rose
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head:
    Hey guys. I’m abut to start reading this thread from the top down. While I’m doing so, I figured I’d give you all something to do while you breathlessly wait for my input here. So,I’ve placed a new poll up at http://www.lordnedsheadlines.blogspot.com asking what your favorite original scene for the first half of the season was.
    Please give it a vote if you can and feel free to comment on any scenes I might have missed!

    Bah, no option for the Renly/Loras scene? I enjoyed that more than anything else in the season so far, unpopular opinion as that is.

    Voted for Robert/Cersei cause that’s my very easy second place.

  248. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    Another guess for new POV = Mya Stone – this would get you the sansa/lf plot line (I don’t remember anything bad happening to her but I suppose I could be wrong).

  249. userj
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    EvilPicnic,

    It’s ok, george is a godless liberal heathen like most of us – we’ll all be left behind, so we’ll get the book in July as planned!

    I don’t feel too bad if any of George’s fans do get raptured – I suppose probably in Heaven they already have all 7 books! :D

  250. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Rose,

    Hehe Rose. Its funny. The Renley/Loras scene was my least favorite episode of the series so far. I go into more detail in my episode fiver rundown, but I’ll just say that I was looking forward to D&D developing their relationship more subltey at first.

  251. Skye
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    I kind of want the new POV to be Willas Tyrell…we haven’t met him yet.
    Also, this is my first post. :)
    *gives herself a highfive for finally emerging from her lurker cave*

  252. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Welcome Skye!

  253. purplejilly
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Lex,
    Well, now my opinion of you has gone back up a few notches : )
    You should write her a love song and play it on your mean axe!

  254. Steve the Pirate
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    If I hear one more person complain that the gay couple should be more “subtle,” I’m gonna spew.
    I think it would be awesome if the maggy prophecy comes to nothing. Have Cersei executed by the Faith thinking, “What the fuck?!”

  255. Steve the Pirate
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    If I hear one more person complain that the gay couple should be more “subtle,” I’m gonna spew.
    I think it would be awesome if the maggy prophecy comes to nothing. Have Cersei executed by the Faith thinking, “What the hell?!”

  256. Belwas's Stool
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    My guesses for the unknown POV -Sandor or The Blackfish

  257. EvilPicnic
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Skye

    Highfive Skye!

    Is highfiving yourself not simply a clap? :p

  258. obsidian
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate,

    Oh well,at the risk of beating a dead horse.. as one of those who complained about the lack of subtlety..I ,at least, didn’t mean it should be subtle forever..just initially, to build on the romance and the secret love aspect.

    I know you’re responding to the podcast, here…but it just prompts me to want to say I’m a bit uneasy with the usual cries of “It’s HBO, what did you expect ?” in reply to any misgivings about sexual content..because HBO is becoming ?/ has become ? very formulaic in this regard , and if formula really takes over , I fear it will work against them in the end. Then who will we look to to undertake this kind of project ?

    I have a sneaking liking for your Cersei scenario , especially after Marwyn’s warning about the nature of prophecy. :)

  259. maxlongstreet
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate:
    If I hear one more person complain that the gay couple should be more “subtle,” I’m gonna spew.

    I hated the scene too, not so much because the relationship between Loras and Renly wasn’t “subtle”, but because it turned Renly into a gay stereotype rather than the complex character he actually was in the book.

  260. Rose
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    How exactly was Renly complex in the book? I agree that show and book Renly are very different beasts, and I adored book Renly — possibly more than show Renly — but assuming the arc is the same, show Renly is MORE complex a character. More insecurities, flaws, weaknesses, developpment, and goals. How is that less complex?

  261. obsidian
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet,

    The change in Renly’s character ( and probably Loras’ ) is really the most objectionable thing for me, too. It may well alter the percieved motivations behind their future actions.Which will not be an improvement for me. Some fancy writing would have to be done to put them back in place , and I’m not sure they’ll bother. A different or greater arc doesn’t necessarily make for a better story.

    The changes for Cersei don’t trouble me as much , since we all know she lies like a sidewalk , and aspires to be the great manipulator.So what has been written differently for her clearly needn’t alter her character much , if at all ,from the book Cersei.

  262. Zack
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate:
    If I hear one more person complain that the gay couple should be more “subtle,” I’m gonna spew.

    Seconded. It reads to me like, “Less icky stuff on screen, please.” And I just roll my eyes. Cause of course it’s fine to make the gays put up with all the straight sex that HBO has certainly not depicted with any “subtlety”…

    I don’t know why the only gay relationship between characters of any notable prominence in the story should be downplayed otherwise.

    They’re not ‘out.’ Society still disapproves, and plenty of Westerosi folks are ignorant about Renly & Loras. We just get a glimpse behind the scenes, as it were, to what is a clandestine relationship. Just because we see it doesn’t mean it isn’t subtle.

    I do, however, somewhat agree with the people who noted the lack of any kissing as a way to help put over the fact that for them it’s a deep relationship based in mutual love and not just sex…but then again, the shaving stuff is pretty intimate and for me that served the same purpose as kisses might have, without having to make the actors actually kiss. lol

  263. Wastrel
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Arrogant Bastard:
    Wastrel,

    I’d rather look forward to the book coming out then worry about all the ways it could go wrong.

    You say that as though they’re contradictory. I think that between now and ADWD there’ll be plenty of time for both.
    In that post, however, I was actually worrying about how FUTURE books would end up, and how long we’d have to “look forward to them” for.

  264. Wastrel
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet:
    Wastrel, please go somewhere else and read something else. If you think it’s going to be so difficult to get through, go read one of the other literally millions of novels available on the market today.

    Why? I like ASOIAF, and I don’t like most books. I’m sorry if you feel contaminated by having the share the books with someone who isn’t a drooling fanatic – but as it happens, I’m able to think critically about things AND love them passionately at the same time. Who’d have thought it.

  265. Wastrel
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Hey, I can relate, I love the characters and the world too much myself.

    And I’ll bet if you polled 10 different fans about “what is really important for the main story line” you’d get 10 different answers. I mean wasn’t Wastrel complaining about too many Jon and Dany chapters above? Jeez louise, if any two characters could be agreed upon to be central to “what’s really important” it would be them.

    Oh, I agree. Jon and Dany are completely central to the story. They just happen to be characters I don’t personally like, so I’d personally prefer it if their important-but-less-enjoyable chapters were more broken up by the fun stuff.
    [Actually, I do enjoy some Jon chapters, because I like the Others and wights and wildlings and whatnot stuff and he's the POV for all that - but I don't like Jon himself]

    That issue, of purely personal taste, is an entirely different one from thinking that the story is getting too big and that both AFFC and the reports of ADWD give reasons to worry that Martin may be losing his authorial control.

    [And hey, sorry if I'm a little sensitive on that issue, but I'm a traumatised WoT-vet, so naturally my curiosity turns in that direction]

    And of course ADWD may turn everything around. It may, and I hope it does. I just don’t think it will. Doesn’t mean I think the series will end up shit (but does increase the odds) but does mean I think it’ll end up (even) longer than planned.

    I don’t claim that this is certain, and if it doesn’t work out that way I won’t be astonished or amazed. I’m just placing the bet here and now while the odds offered publically are still (I think) rather skewed.

  266. Nicole
    Posted May 21, 2011 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Kong is not just merely dead, but really most sincerely dead.

    The final count shows that we’ve got 73 chapters, told through the eyes of (gulp) sixteen different viewpoint characters. I could tell you who they are, but then I’d have to kill you.

    Kong, you were one mother of a monkey, but I’m glad you’re off my back.

    I am so ready for this.

  267. Manosfrías
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    What is the Meereenese knot? Can someone explain it to me. (sorry for my english, im from Argentina)

  268. JohnEngedal
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    As I am in the middle of my A Feast For Crows reread, I’m just gonna throw this suggestion out there, not sure if someone already has, what if Aurane Waters(aka Aegon am I right?:p) is the final new POV? Last we heard he was heading for open sea with Cersei’s ships, could he be a possible solution to the Mereneese knot? I guess his chapters would be at the end of Dance though, so maybe not, still, I’ll just go ahead and entertain these thoughts over here by myself. Sure hope these spoiler tags work on my iPhone:)

  269. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Manosfrías,

    here’s a good forumthread about it. Basically people think a lot characters converge in Mereen and it got George in all kind of sorts of trouble (timelines, motivations etc.)/.

  270. Darkwolf
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    ZeroCool,

    I’ll throw in a vote for the craggonman

  • Recent Comments

  • More from FanSided

  • Archives

    • 2014 (336)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •