Episode 7 – You Win or You Die – Early Open Chat
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

HBO Go Ep 7

For all those who have HBO Go and decided to use it tonight to watch episode seven of Game of Thrones, use this here thread to discuss your thoughts. As for me, I am waiting until Sunday to see it, so no recap until then. Please keep all your thoughts about this episode, and most importantly the details of what happens in this episode, confined to this thread. That means no hinting or spoiling in other threads.


465 Comments

  1. rufus
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    if only the site was up…

  2. Jason Willis
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    That was amazing

  3. Trollsbane
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    “I always wanted to be a wizard.”

    Brilliant

  4. Jason Willis
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Trollsbane,

    haha yea sam should have asked if he could say his oath to the Lord of Light

  5. Steve
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    The Hound cut one of the Stark men in half. Damn.

  6. Steve
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Another thing — Charles Dance is a stud.

    He’s the perfect Tywin with a dash of Randall Tarly thrown in.

  7. RicardoRI
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Okay, so people are able to access HBO GO? I have been trying for over an hour. Looks like they didn’t put together a scaling plan. Not a good showing for HBO NO GO.

  8. Jason Willis
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    RicardoRI,

    yes i got it right after the show, well it took like 5 minutes for me to log in and it to load

  9. Steve
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    RicardoRI: Okay, so people are able to access HBO GO? I have been trying for over an hour. Looks like they didn’t put together a scaling plan. Not a good showing for HBO NO GO.

    Who is your cable provider? I, too, couldn’t access the HBO Go website so I went to Xfinity.tv instead and it worked.

  10. Maxwell James
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    If you have Comcast you can watch it over xfinity, which is doing much better than HBOGO right now.

  11. Maki
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Amazing episode. What really struck me were the Tywin/Jaimie and Littlefinger w/whores scenes. These were two of the best non-book scenes so far.

  12. RicardoRI
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Steve,

    I am with AT&T UVerse. The site freezes when I try to log in now. Ugh. This is such a buggy site. I’ve been trying to log in for a while now. The site was even having issues last night.

  13. rawrt
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    “And remind her that Lannisters pay their debts.”
    -Tywin Lannister

    Charles Dance is great as Tywin.

  14. Ashavan
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Looks like it’ll be a great episode, and I’m looking forward to watching it, whenever HBO-Go gets its shit together. If this was supposed to be the big coming out party for their web service, they really blew it. I’ve been trying to log into it for an hour and half on both my computer and my iPad, and all I get is spinning wheels. WTF?!?!?!?!?

  15. RicardoRI
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Anyone want to share their comcast login with me? ;^)

  16. Anne Vaillancourt
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Anyone from Canada able to find the damn episode?? I have Videotron and IllicoWeb is still at 5 eps…
    EDIT: HA Nevermind, it just popped up ! Going to watch right now :D

  17. Scott
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    I have HBO go on my ipod already set up and when I tried to log into it on my laptop earlier today it kept booting me out saying that username/email/account was already accounted for basically. I started thinking you were only allowed to register one device or something. As soon as episode 6 was over I hopped over there on my laptop again just to try, and logged right in first try. Not sure whats up with the inconsistancies on the HBO go site, but im sure they’ll work it out. Now I feel a little guilty about jumping a week ahead. Fortunately It was good enough that I’ll be looking forward to next sunday maybe even more than usual so I can see it again.

  18. Maki
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Not sure if it matters, but it worked for me on hbogo.com through chrome.

  19. Maxwell James
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    That Littlefinger scene is certainly going to be talked about. I thought the action in it was pretty ridiculous, but Gillen pulled it off quite brilliantly.

  20. Gecc1
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Wow!
    Lots of win on episode 7.
    So much stuff… So much stuff.

    Glad to say I have FIOS and was able to log into HBO Go without issue.
    Connected my PC to the large screen TV via HDMI and it looked beautiful.

  21. rufus
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Maki:
    Not sure if it matters, but it worked for me on hbogo.com through chrome.

    I’m not sure why, but Chrome works for me as well. Doesn’t work on firefox or android at the moment. Thanks for the tip!

  22. Joel
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    great episode leaves you wanting more, can’t wait to watch in hd on my huge tv next sunday much less the next episode in two weeks. On a side note I can’t believe we are already this far into the season feels like it just started and its going to be over in 4 more episodes……hopefully season 2 is expanded beyond 10 eps

  23. Steve
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I really like Osha as well. Didn’t care for her in the books but in the show she is an entirely different character and much more memorable.

    I’m still bitter about the no ToJ scene in episode 6 but the added Tywin/Jaime scene in episode 7 was awesome.

  24. Ashavan
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    I’ve got FIOS too and I don’t have jack shit on HBOGO. >:(

    Gecc1:
    Wow!
    Lots of win on episode 7.
    So much stuff… So much stuff.

    Glad to say I have FIOS and was able to log into HBO Go without issue.
    Connected my PC to the large screen TV via HDMI and it looked beautiful.

  25. Apotheosis
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    What a lovely episode. They really nailed the ending.

  26. DaveB
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Hey, what happened to the GRRM-confirmed rumor that someone who doesn’t die until book 3 was going to die this episode?

  27. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Actually, I thought the Littlefinger Sexposition with the whores was too over the top.

    In the books, Littlefinger was a Lord and a merchant of great skill. He had an interest in some whorehouses, yes, but that was a minor part of his business enterprise. The show is making him out to be “pimping” as his main source of income and interest. That’s bullshit.

    In any event, I presume they added the whole sex scene because they think that’s what keeps some of their viewers interested. I guess they know their market best. *shrug*. If they kept the rest of the story, I wouldn’t pay it much heed. But… they didn’t. (See Below)

    As for episodes 6 and 7, I thought they were great and I can’t wait to see a buddy of mine (who has not read the books) but who has watched up until Ep 6 for several weeks now. He’s been waiting for this for nearly a month and he had NO IDEA it was coming. It should be a fun conversation.

    I’m not too sure about the choice to make Renly’s offer of aid to Stark seem so overtly self-serving. In the book, it seemed to me that Renly acted out of self-preservation and genuinely wanted to help Stark. The show made it seem to be part of Renly’s plan to seize the throne. I’m not so sure that was necessary. I guess the real point was so that Renly could explain that Stannis was not fit to be King and to tell the audience why.

    And now…to my main complaint:

    Is it just me, or did they seriously mess with the plot in an impermissible manner? Where was Sansa’s scene with her going to the Queen? That’s not a small plot point. Just because the book’s POV structure lets us learn of this through Cersei later does not mean that device should have been used in a non-POV show.

    Are they actually going to cut her betrayal out entirely?

    Whatever the case, that’s the first time in the series that I thought the writers have gone too far. Sansa betrayed her Father to the Queen. She may have done so unwittingly, but that doesn’t change what happened. THAT is the book they are showing.

    You don’t get to cut that out for Sexposition and not be called on it.

  28. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    I got on, got halfway through the ep and HBOGo froze and booted me off via Firefox for the Mac. Pretty underwhelming performance, unfortunately, but what I saw was tremendous. I’ll try again later tonight and tomorrow.

  29. Mike Chair
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    HBOGo on Verizon Fios:
    It took about 40 minutes, but when it got rolling it was great.
    HD was clear and the playback only had a few stutters.

    Episode 7:
    Wow. What a ride! Charles Dance is Tywin and John Bradley owns Samwell. There’s Ghost. Drogo’s rant — Jason having more fun than a Dothraki should be allowed to have.

    So, is HBO putting Episode 8 on HBOGo next week?

  30. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    DaveB: hat someone who doesn’t die until book 3 was going to die this episode?

    I thought that was a comment about somebody dying this season, not this episode.

  31. RicardoRI
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Signed in to HBO GO, waited a few minutes, got logged out, and got this message:
    AT&T is experiencing technical difficulties and cannot process your request at this time. AT&T is working on this issue and hopes to have it resolved soon. Please try again later.

    BOOOOO. :^(

  32. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Can anyone that has seen episode seven give a quick run down of what happens? Time Warner Cable (sadly) doesn’t allow me access to HBOGo, so I have to wait a week. Boo hoo.

  33. Maxwell James
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I agree the Sexposition was way more than was necessary. Which has been a problem of mine with the show since the beginning, but I’ve accepted it as part of the price we pay for seeing this on the air. What I liked about that scene was Gillen alone, who I think did a good job of conveying his mysterious character through the excessive grinding.

    As for Sansa, I assume that will be revealed in retrospect (can’t remember in the books if it’s before or after). They set it up quite clearly in Ned’s last scene with her, so I don’t see any reason why it would be cut.

  34. joe
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    THe developers of HBO GO should be fired for wasting all our time

  35. coraxery
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    The forcing of T&A in episodes is becoming an issue. I think they need to take a cue from some of their other shows, it’s fine if it is plot driven but the littlefinger whore scene was ridiculous.

    I’m also preparing myself to be underwhelmed by the battle scenes.

    The Sansa part that people are talking about occurs outside POV in the books which if it didn’t it would completely ruin this episodes ending.

  36. Leofric
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    In the book you don’t find out Sansa went to the Queen until after the throne room scene, so possibly we will see it or have it discussed in the next episode

    Comcast/Xfinity worked for HBOGo without any issues, was able to log in right after episode 6 ended.

  37. DaveB
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: I thought that was a comment about somebody dying this season, not this episode.

    So strange. I went back to research, and I can’t find anything that says episode 7. But I swear I read everywhere that it was this episode. Oh well, I’m crazy.

    Are they setting up Pyp to take the Dareon part?

  38. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    HO-LEE-SHIT

    Maxwell James: As for Sansa, I assume that will be revealed in retrospect (can’t remember in the books if it’s before or after). They set it up quite clearly in Ned’s last scene with her, so I don’t see any reason why it would be cut.

    I also happen to agree with this. They might be trying to set up a really nice “knife in the gut” moment if Ned and the audience find out she had a hand in his demise while he’s on the steps of Baelor’s Sept

    ALSO:
    Hound and Sansa fans, rejoice! (I refuse to write San/San… wait… shit.) Anyway, on HBO GO you can check out a preview for episode 8 already and it looks like there’s some “pretty bird” creepiness coming our way!

    Episode 8 is GRRM’s episode, right?

  39. Ed
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Wow!! THAT was a GREAT episode! I loved the Littlefinger scene, by the way. Roz and her friend did great! :)

    The whole danged episode was epic. Drogo was fanTAStic!! I LOVE that scene! Big props for HBO tonight, I can’t wait to watch it in high def next week!

  40. Josh Berkowitz
    Posted May 22, 2011 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Momoa as Drogo in the speech scene was inspiring. The final scene in the throne room was tense. Loved every minute of this episode.

  41. Nymeriarya
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Ughh. No luck on hBOGO in the last two hours trying to launch episode 7.

  42. Leofric
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    DaveB,

    They mentioned Daeron being assigned to Eastwatch when Aemon was assigning tasks, so they have both

    I also liked how they had Tywin already carving up a stag before Robert is quite dead.

  43. JRQ
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    1 ) Episode 7 was astonishingly good. But…

    2) Help me out with something, folks: Ned knows Joffrey’s parentage. I can assume Renly knows (or suspects) too. But how do Ned and Renly both know that the other knows? It seemed like an unrealistically open conversation for them to be having, with each of them seeming to just assume Joffrey’s ineligibility in the presence of the other, with Ned advocating Stannis and Renly advocating himself. What am I missing here?

  44. rufus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    I admit this is very minor, but it bothers me that in the opening scene Jaime says he “could care less what people think of” him; the phrase should be could not care less. Oh well, people get it wrong every day. Surprised no one caught it though.

  45. Gecc1
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Brandon Stark,

    SPOILERS BELOW if you don’t want to know what happened.

    Highlights of what happened on episode 7

    Tywin gives Jaime 30,000 men and tells him to attack Riverrun
    Ned tells Cersei he knows about her incest. Cersei replies with her famous line.
    Robert comes back wounded from the hunt. Names Ned Protector of Realm.
    Renly asks Ned to attack and take Cersei’s children
    Ned asks Littlefinger to bribe the City guard
    Ser Jorah stops a wine seller from poisoning Dany
    Jon is named a Steward not a Ranger
    He takes his oath with Sam by a heart Tree
    Ghost finds a severed hand
    Drogo learns of the attempt on Dany and SWEARS that his son will sit on the iron chair and he will cross the poisoned water and give his son seven kingdoms
    Ned gets summoned to the throne by King Joffrey
    Littlefinger tells Ned he has the City Guard
    Ned tells Cersei that his son has no right to the throne and orders her arrest.
    The City Guard turn on him and kill all his men.
    Little finger tells Ned. he warned him not to trust him
    Credits

    AWESOME!

  46. Hoberto
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    Awesome episode

  47. seanathin
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    With FiOS it took about 20 minutes to get HBOgo to fully load and let me log in though once it did, the episode ran just fine with only a small hicup in the credits.

    The Whore bid needed to be shorter though the subtext was great. Loved everything else though. That last sequence was really tense even though I knew what was going to happen.

    Can’t wait to watch it in HD, and then on to episode 8.

  48. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    I wonder if this will hit the torrents

  49. Mimi Miéville
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    these past two episodes have hewed very closely to the content of the books, sexposition aside. they’ve definitely impressed me the most thus far.

    however, did they get tywin lannister mixed up with randyll tarly? the twyin in my mind was significantly more emotionless, succinct, and inscrutable.

  50. Chris
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    1.) Well, I guess we know why Ros had to go to Kings Landing… That was wayyyy too much, IMO.

    2.) Jason Mamoa gets the award for Best “Going from only having like three lines to delivering what might have been the best scene of the show so far”.

    3.) It’s official. Game of Thrones hates animals.

    4.) Awesome episode. Just like the book, its getting better as it goes.

    5.) I think I like this director the best. Not even sure why, just thought the direction of the last two episodes worked better for me. Epecially the way they shot the Robb fight scene in ep. 6.

  51. Josh Berkowitz
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Did anyone find it fitting that they showed Tywin skinning a stag in the opening scene?

  52. feyrband
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    it worked freaking perfect until 48 minutes. and i haven’t gotten it to play for longer than 30 seconds since. now i’m at the point where it won’t do anything except play from the beginning and still for only 30 seconds… ARRRGH

  53. JamesW
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    I understand that some of you had bad experiences with HBOGO, however. You should all be proud that the fans of A Game of Thrones broke their system! Also, don’t shoot down HBOGO! It lets us watch any show when ever we want. In a few years we will just be paying HBO to use HBOGO and stop paying the cable companies for something that was intended to be free to the audience in its initial purpose.

    Don’t forget that they allowed us to see and episode a week early. Negative responses like some here will not lead to HBO releasing other episodes a week early..

    Now, about the episode… WOW! I remembered Sansa betraying Ned when I saw the scene with her and Joffery and I got sick to my stomach. My mom has not watched episode 7 yet… but man is she in for a treat!

    It is really sad that two HUGE actors will be leaving the series soon. But, god! I wish Ned was not so honorable. I remember reading this in the book and wanting to shout out in rage at the man that just got betrayed. Ohhhh!!!! and the scene in episode 6 with Arya? AMAZING! Arya is my favorite character and today I just found out she has at least one chapter in the new book! WOOT!!!

    And Dany!!! Good lord! pure genius! I can’t wait to see how HBO is going to handle the dragon CGI. I really hope they get an artist like the one that made gollum in LOTR. That guy did such a great job with the skins!

    Anyway… See you all in two weeks!

  54. blatz
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    First, HBO Go sucks for not anticipating the volume of people wanting to see episode 7. However episodes 6 and 7 were beyond excellence . The moon door, Bran’s rescue, Viscery’s crown…all brilliant. Neds realization about Robert’s kids, rather non-kids. Brilliant. Syrio, Petyrs betrayal. I just can’t think of one thing to compliment. All things need complimenting. I want to shake Benihoff and Weiss’ hands.

  55. James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Chris: 5.) I think I like this director the best. Not even sure why, just thought the direction of the last two episodes worked better for me. Epecially the way they shot the Robb fight scene in ep. 6.

    I agree, I noticed the direction and feel changed in a good way for episode 6 and 7, so I looked up info in the episode guide listing on the site and saw that his name was Daniel Minahan, and he will be doing episode 8 as well. Hopefully the production team keeps him around next season for more episodes. He got a lot of great, and natural performances from the cast.

  56. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    JamesW: Don’t forget that they allowed us to see and episode a week early. Negative responses like some here will not lead to HBO releasing other episodes a week early..

    The responses here have not been especially mean-spirited towards HBO. Rightfully frustrated, but if HBO can’t take the heat when their shit breaks, then they’re absolutely in the wrong business. In fact, if I’m HBO I use the flames to inspire my dev teams to make a better more stable product. Yeah, it’s not good if their streaming service crashes on a night when they were excited about really showing off its capabilities, but on the other hand, their reaction ought to be “damn, a whole hell of a lot of people wanted to use HBO GO tonight… let’s get back to work on this thing.” HBO is not going to get all pissy about the mean old posters at WiC.net. They’re going to realize that the rabid popularity of a show overloaded their system. An HBO exec would take that any day (and then send the developers back to work to ensure that that is the last time their system crashes from unforeseen demand). HBO better not be licking their wounded pride right now so much as licking their chops at what a ratings giant like True Blood will do for HBO GO usage this summer.

    If we can keep the servers maxed out to keep pace with our consumption of this show, we’ll get that Red Wedding yet :)

  57. Amby
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    JRQ,

    Renly doesn’t care about line of succession, he cares about who would be a good king (or at least, who he thinks would be a good king). Joff’s parentage is irrelevant to him; he knows Joff would make a terrible king, which is the same reason he rejects Stannis’ claim.

  58. Amby
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Josh Berkowitz,

    You know, when I watched the episode I was thinking, “Why would a lord be carving up his own food? Doesn’t he have some servants to do that for him?” But you guys are right, the symbolism there is great.

  59. Dante
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    I can’t get hbogo to let me get past the credits for ep 7 and it’s sooo frustrating. It feels very overhyped and not ready for primetime. How could they not have anticipated this?

  60. Amby
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Chris,

    Totally agree about Momoa’s scene. Gave me goosebumps.

  61. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    The name “Stannis” has become the new “Hey, ___________ did you know the Mad King killed Rickard and Brandon Stark in this throne room?”

    Seriously, they name-dropped the hell out of that Baratheon brother in this episode, which leads me to believe HBO was hopeful they would wrap up the Stannis casting before the end of this current season and get a recognizable name under contract to promote in the vacuum Eddard Stark is about to leave

  62. feyrband
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    Amby:
    Chris,

    Totally agree about Momoa’s scene.Gave me goosebumps.

    yea glad i got it to play again, chills from that bit.

  63. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Dante,

    I’m almost ashamed to admit I’ve already watched ep 7 twice. What’s your connection type/provider?

  64. blac9570
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard,

    I’m not seeing the Episode 8 preview on HBO GO or the hbo website. Where did you find it?

  65. Amby
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Chris,

    About the hating animals thing:
    1) A lot of that stuff is in the books.
    2) I think they’re trying to be realistic about people’s attitudes towards animals in that type of lifestyle (medieval). Modern attitudes about things like animal cruelty and morality in general are quite different than what you should expect to see in a show about people who kill each other with swords regularly.

  66. Jason Willis
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    blac9570,

    if you hit the info button when you are on episode 7 it is one of the videos on the side

  67. JRQ
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Amby:
    JRQ,

    Renly doesn’t care about line of succession, he cares about who would be a good king (or at least, who he thinks would be a good king).Joff’s parentage is irrelevant to him; he knows Joff would make a terrible king, which is the same reason he rejects Stannis’ claim.

    I realize that, but I’m actually asking something different — It’s clear why Joff’s parentage is irrelevant to Renly….what I want to know is why Renly so openly presumes Joff’s parentage is irrelevant to Ned. The discussion skips over Joff and goes right to Stannis vs. Renly, as though Ned and Renly (1) share knowledge of Joff’s parentage, and (2) are each aware this knowledge is shared by the other. I’ll have to watch this exchange more closely tomorrow.

  68. Larry D Curtis
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    JamesW: I really hope they get an artist like the one that made gollum in LOTR. That guy did such a great job with the skins!

    The problem is this: Weta Workshop, which won Oscars for the LOTR trilogy, spent millions and had teams of artists working on CGI for Gollum. It was NOT an artist on his computer, it was a hell of a lot of time, money and people working on it.

    It will be noteworthy, whatever way things go with CGI dragons. Is that still a spoiler or is it SOOOO obvious at this point to even the most casual viewer (if such a thing exists in this series) that dragons are coming. A nice close to Season One I would think.

  69. Adolfo
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    The episode was brilliant. What sux is I have to wait 2 weeks to see what happens! ARG!! What a great series.

  70. Pamoya
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    You say that you recognize the revelation of Sansa’s “indiscretion” happened later in the books, but it should have happened earlier here because the show doesn’t need to rely on the POV structure. But I strongly disagree… and I am pretty sure we will see it later, since they set it up very well with the Joffrey apology and the whining about having to leave KL.

    My disagreement is based on this… how would they have shown it without *completely* undercutting the surprise, drama, and tension in the throne room in the very last scene? Have her standing with Cersei ahead of time and spoil the surprise? Have her pop her head out and say hi right after Janos Slynt skewers a Winterfell guardsman? Neither of those things, imo, would have worked at all. I liked that they kept the revelations to the order in the books.

    The whores and Littlefinger wasn’t my favorite scene of the episode, it went on a bit too long. As much as I like her, seeing Ros there (even if she did catch a boat) felt a little forced. But I absolutely loved everything else.

    My two favorite additions: Theon and Osha was fantastic, and a great introduction to Osha and how she views things a lot differently than anyone else. And Lord Tywin was just insanely good in the first scene… clearly the patriarch and head of all things Lannister.

  71. Andrew Phillips
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    I thought the Ned/Cersei confrontation was a little weaker onscreen then it played out in my head when I was reading the books.

    But wow…hell of a couple episodes tonight. Wow.

  72. Amby
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    JRQ: I realize that, but I’m actually asking something different — It’s clear why Joff’s parentage is irrelevant to Renly….what I want to know is why Renly so openly presumes Joff’s parentage is irrelevant to Ned. The discussion skips over Joff and goes right to Stannis vs. Renly, as though Ned and Renly (1) share knowledge of Joff’s parentage, and (2) are each aware this knowledge is shared by the other. I’ll have to watch this exchange more closely tomorrow.

    Heh, good point, maybe I will too. :)

  73. RedViper
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Drogo went from meh to awesome in one episode. lol That scene along with the final scene was intense! My heart sunk in my chest when Ned arrived at the throne room. Its like knowing something bad will happen to someone you care for and not being able to do anything about it.

    Finally those new to the series will be able to suffer with us and hopefully keep coming back for more.

  74. Pamoya
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    JRQ,

    Among the real players on the council, I assume that Joffrey’s parentage is an open secret. Nobody discusses it amongst themselves, but everyone knows it.

    But why does Renly assume Ned Stark knows? He doesn’t *know* that Ned knows, I don’t think. But Renly is desperate. This is his last play before running from the capitol with Loras Tyrell to start an armed rebellion. He probably is aware, along with Varys and Littlefinger, that Ned has been running around checking out Robert’s bastards. I think he hopes that Ned knows, or that Ned will at least understand that letting Joffrey keep the throne would be a disaster.

  75. Ghost
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    I waiting for a moment when the hound turns to Joffrey and tells him “Joffrey I am your father.”
    The lady who designed the customs is awesome, loved Joffrey’s. Awesome work HBO!

  76. AryaSnow
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    There are scenes with Arya in episode 7?

  77. The DarkStar
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    After an hour and a half…..
    FUCK YEAH. Great episode!!
    I really feel this is the gateway to the rest of the season.

  78. Andrew Gavin
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Hbogo worked for me, but I already had it logged in and ready to go as I had been watching the Soprannos earlier. Even doing that over the last couple of weeks it’s occasionally flakey — although once it stabilizes will be a great service, and is already good. The video quality is certainly a bit worse than my HD DirectTV feed, particularly when the camera pans, as there is a big motion stutter. But it’s perfectly watchable.

    I wrote up a full plot recap and review of ep 7 here.

  79. Pamoya
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Jason Willis:

    if you hit the info button when you are on episode 7 it is one of the videos on the side

    Thank you for this! I never knew you could get to extra videos on HBO Go. Wow, soo much good stuff still to come. And now two weeks to wait. Oh well, it was worth it. :)

  80. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Steve,

    What a great introduction, too.

  81. Alan
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    Pamoya:
    Steel_Wind,

    You say that you recognize the revelation of Sansa’s “indiscretion” happened later in the books, but it should have happened earlier here because the show doesn’t need to rely on the POV structure. But I strongly disagree… and I am pretty sure we will see it later, since they set it up very well with the Joffrey apology and the whining about having to leave KL.

    My disagreement is based on this… how would they have shown it without *completely* undercutting the surprise, drama, and tension in the throne room in the very last scene? Have her standing with Cersei ahead of time and spoil the surprise? Have her pop her head out and say hi right after Janos Slynt skewers a Winterfell guardsman? Neither of those things, imo, would have worked at all. I liked that they kept the revelations to the order in the books.

    The whores and Littlefinger wasn’t my favorite scene of the episode, it went on a bit too long. As much as I like her, seeing Ros there (even if she did catch a boat) felt a little forced. But I absolutely loved everything else.

    My two favorite additions: Theon and Osha was fantastic, and a great introduction to Osha and how she views things a lot differently than anyone else. And Lord Tywin was just insanely good in the first scene… clearly the patriarch and head of all things Lannister.

    +1 on all that. I think they will reveal Sansa at a traitor but it would have killed the reveal; the Littlefinger backstory was great but frankly the gratuitous nudity is almost funny at points; Tywin and Osha were great.

  82. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Alan,

    Knowing most of the plot ahead of time, all the exposition just washes over me anyway. At least they gave us something to watch while the rest of the viewers catch up.

    I agree that Osha’s pretty great, and Tywin is amazing. Nice having him cleaning the stag, both for the symbolism and for the implication that he’s not afraid to get his hands dirty. It’s one thing to have a father lament his son not making anything of himself, another to show him as a still-capable man who isn’t living vicariously though his children.

  83. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Amby:
    Josh Berkowitz,

    You know, when I watched the episode I was thinking, “Why would a lord be carving up his own food?Doesn’t he have some servants to do that for him?”But you guys are right, the symbolism there is great.

    And the other answer is “because Tywin Lannister is one hard motherfucker.”

  84. Kristen Weaver
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:43 am | Permalink

    YAY finally got it to play! All be it in choppy bits over an hour and a half, but still damn good! Can’t wait to watch it in a week in HD without the unscheduled brakes :D

  85. Kyles
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    JRQ,

    I saw that scene as renly suggesting that they essentially kidnap joffrey so that they could control the kingdom through their new puppet king. Renly and Ned could be kings in everything but the name. The little comment at the end about being a better king was just testing the waters to see Ned’s reaction/ Renly being pompous.

    In other news, i watched the preview for episode 8 and one little sound bite is bugging me; Sam saying “you were touched by the white walkers….” umm I think he means to say “you were touched by some reanimated corpses Jon, wights, if you will. Yeah lets call them wights. Anyway, these *wights* touched you.” Because those are not walkers…

  86. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    feyrband,

    Refresh your webpage.

    Mine stopped working near the end too (when Ned hands Barristan Robert’s last order) and would only restart at the beginning not allowing for forwarding.

    I decided to reset my internet connection and refresh the webpage. Doing so, I was able to foward the video back to where I left off.

    Great stuff.

  87. PatD
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:04 am | Permalink

    But why does Renly assume Ned Stark knows? He doesn’t *know* that Ned knows

    I don’t think that discussion had anything to do with assumed knowledge of Joffrey’s true parentage. Robert named Ned Protectorate until Joffrey came of age. I think Renly was just taking advantage of the circumstances and suggesting Ned didn’t need to be Protectorate, as Renly felt he was Kingly material and ready to sit on the throne now.

  88. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    Kyles,

    I think I can excuse that line based on the fact that many people in the North have heard of the White Walkers, but no one’s entirely sure of what they should look like. I’m okay with characters using the wrong name, if it’s done so intentionally.

  89. Kana
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:29 am | Permalink

    Has anyone posted the episode 8 teaser to yoube?

  90. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:55 am | Permalink

    Wow, that was a great great episode, the best so far in my opinion. Even without as much action, no tyrion or arya the time still flew by. Loved the scenes at the wall, seemed straight from the book. Littlefinger’s long rant to the whores reveals a ton about his character and reminded me of Al Swearengen’s rants in deadwood when one of his hookers sucks him off (although the lesbian action was a bit over the top, plus how did Ros get to KL in one day). They’re setting up Stannis well also for season 2, there’s already a great sense of foreboding about him.

    Dany’s parts were excellent as well, definitely the best of hers in the series so far. Loved Drogo’s speech and the scene with the winemaker.

    Everything in this episode clicked really well, though now I have to wait two weeks. Oh well, it was worth watching it early.

  91. James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    Did anyone else think that Littlefinger scene with the whores was way too over the top. By the time it was over I had no idea what Littlefinger even said. I was just surprised at how long it was and how it kept getting more graphic. It seemed really out of place and unnecessary. I usually dont mind the gratuitous nudity or sex but that was just too long and explicit.

  92. Zach
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Chris,

    Agreed, this director is DEFINITELY the best thus far. Let’s hope these two episodes are the new standard for the series.

  93. Sandra
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    I agree with everyone else, Littlefinger and the scene with the whores was just way toooooo much for waaaay tooo long. On the other hand, that scene was offset with tons of other brilliant stuff. Tywin saying that Tyrion was the least of the Lannisters, for instance. I remember Jaime’s aunt saying in ASoS that Tyrion was Tywin’s son, not Jamie, and I just want to Joff-slap him for being so down on him. The tension between Ned and the Lannisters is overwhelming.

  94. Amby
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: And the other answer is “because Tywin Lannister is one hard motherfucker.”

    Haha, indeed.

  95. Del
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:
    Actually, I thought the Littlefinger Sexposition with the whores was too over the top.

    I think a part of the reason (besides the obvious show enough T&A to make people go “Oh, it’s HBO”) is for future scenes with Shae and Tyrion. “They know it’s all just an act. Your job is to make them forget what they know…. He’s winning you over in spite of yourself… He wants to believe you…” so on, so forth.

    You can’t get into Tyrion’s head like in the books. It might be a bit more difficult to really show how much Tyrion wants to believe that Shae could fall for him. We’ll probably get the story he tells to Bronn about his first wife, and the rest will have to be shown by how Dinklage emotes. This explanation from Littlefinger will help a TV audience keep the “act” in mind.

    With that said, just how much they show in this particular scene was probably a bit much. Could have gotten the same effect with a bit less. /shrug

  96. TC
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    I really did not like the Littlefinger sexposition scene. Only partially much because of the sex, though it was over the top, but mostly because Littlefinger who makes Sansa play the role of Alayne even with no one there because you never know when a servant or someone else might walk in and hear something other wise… This man is not going to be discussing his true desires and motivations with whores or even hinting at them, especially not a whore who is new to the city from the north who could be a spy for Varys or the queen or any one else, or or who might gossip innocently about the topic with others. Trust no one he tells Ned, but discuss your most inner desires and motivations with complete strangers? Especially a whore who is willing to sell their own body for money and certainly isn’t likely to feel scruples about selling information too? It’s not even like he forgot himself in a moment of sexual passion either. It just didn’t work for me.

  97. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    webrip it someone!!

  98. CoolHand
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Any one have a horrible feeling in their stomach D&D have decided to replace Shae with Ros. All signs are pointing toward that…also, it looks as if Shagga and the other Mountain Clansmen will not make the cut, which makes me infinitely sad :( … My biggest disappointment was not hearing Tyrion talk about Tysha, his first ‘wife’… This episode (7) was the time to do it and if episode 8 doesn’t I have a sinking feeling it will get lost in HBO’s need for pointless sexposition… /sigh

  99. coltaine777
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    CoolHand: Any one have a horrible feeling in their stomach D&D have decided to replace Shae with Ros. All signs are pointing toward that…also, it looks as if Shagga and the other Mountain Clansmen will not make the cut, which makes me infinitely sad … My biggest disappointment was not hearing Tyrion talk about Tysha, his first ‘wife’… This episode (7) was the time to do it and if episode 8 doesn’t I have a sinking feeling it will get lost in HBO’s need for pointless sexposition… /sigh

    Shagga is in it…they show him in one of the many trailers they have released…

  100. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Shae was cast. They just wrote more Esme Bianco scenes into the show because they liked her.

    Even George likes the character.

  101. Mag the Mighty
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    CoolHand,

    I’m sure it has been mentioned many times before, but Shae is definitely in the story, and is being played by Sibel Kekilli

  102. Ingrin
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    CoolHand: Any one have a horrible feeling in their stomach D&D have decided to replace Shae with Ros. All signs are pointing toward that…also, it looks as if Shagga and the other Mountain Clansmen will not make the cut, which makes me infinitely sad … My biggest disappointment was not hearing Tyrion talk about Tysha, his first ‘wife’… This episode (7) was the time to do it and if episode 8 doesn’t I have a sinking feeling it will get lost in HBO’s need for pointless sexposition… /sigh

    I wouldn’t care if Shae is replaced, although ep 7 diminished the odds to about 50% chance (since Roz is now in Kings landing and working for Littlefinger, it doesn’t really add up. In the books, Tyrion seems much closer/trusts Varys with his needs than littlefinger).
    I would imagine the Tysha exposition would make sense later, in Season 3 when he can tell Shae/Roz like he does in the book. No need to bring it up this early.

  103. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Del: I think a part of the reason (besides the obvious show enough T&A to make people go “Oh, it’s HBO”) is for future scenes with Shae and Tyrion.“They know it’s all just an act.Your job is to make them forget what they know…. He’s winning you over in spite of yourself… He wants to believe you…” so on, so forth.

    You can’t get into Tyrion’s head like in the books.It might be a bit more difficult to really show how much Tyrion wants to believe that Shae could fall for him.

    +1 Very good point.

    As for the Sansa reveal… perhaps. If it comes later, I’m fine with that.

    What I won’t be fine with is if they don’t show it at all. I also think the scene with Sansa and Septa Mordane was a bit too much. A lady’s armor is her courtesy. Sansa would not have been so rude with Septa Mordane as she was.

    Assuming the treachery is revealed, it now seems that Sansa is destined to be hated by TV viewers even more than many (most, perhaps) readers of the series hate her. Right now, she’s almost a caricature of Mean Girl. Age down LinLo and have her play Sansa!!

    Hmm. Wild thought: Could LinLo pull off Melisandre? Probably. I know, I know. The potential drawbacks of that casting are huge. Still. It would eternally keep the series in the press. You can’t buy that kind of publicity. And a steady paying gig might straighten LinLo out, too. *chuckles*

  104. Steve
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    The only thing that makes me mad about the Littlefinger sexposition scene is that they keep adding all of these obvious fanservice scenes such as that, Renly/Loras and Littlefinger and Varys, but they cut out the Tower of Joy.

    I’m still mad about the Tower of Joy and still cant fathom why they didn’t include the best scene from the first book but decided to add a bunch of fanservice instead.

  105. Smart
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Guys, Shae has been cast. Shae and Ros are two separate characters in this show.

  106. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Steve:
    The only thing that makes me mad about the Littlefinger sexposition scene is that they keep adding all of these obvious fanservice scenes such as that, Renly/Loras and Littlefinger and Varys, but they cut out the Tower of Joy.

    I’m still mad about the Tower of Joy and still cant fathom why they didn’t include the best scene from the first book but decided to add a bunch of fanservice instead.

    Relax, people… It’s OBVIOUSLY going to be in the series, they just haven’t shown it yet. Later is just fine.

  107. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Man, am I the only one around here that likes hot girl-on-girl action? LoL!!! I had NO problem with the LittleFinger scene. That was hot. They can show all the scenes like that they want.

    And it was NOT 10 minutes long people. Let’s leave the hyperbole at home.

    James:
    Did anyone else think that Littlefinger scene with the whores was way too over the top. By the time it was over I had no idea what Littlefinger even said. I was just surprised at how long it was and how it kept getting more graphic. It seemed really out of place and unnecessary. I usually dont mind the gratuitous nudity or sex but that was just too long and explicit.

  108. CoolHand
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Well that is very good to know…now I don’t need to chop off D&D’s manhoods and feed them to the goats. :)

  109. TC
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Ed:
    Man, am I the only one around here that likes hot girl-on-girl action?LoL!!!I had NO problem with the LittleFinger scene.That was hot.They can show all the scenes like that they want.

    And it was NOT 10 minutes long people.Let’s leave the hyperbole at home.

    It’s not the girl on girl action that bothers me. It’s the trust no one, completely secretive Littlefinger discussing his inner desires and motivations with a whore who just arrived from the north while she “auditions” for him.

  110. James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    I loved Aiden Gillen performance in that scene but it was hard to even pay attention to what he was saying because of what was going on. I just thought the sex was way too graphic and could potentially turn off viewers, luckily it came towards the end of the season so most viewers who stuck with it are already hooked on the show but a scene like that early in the season could of lost the show viewers. It comes off really cheap and unnecessary especially in an otherwise fantastic episode. The show is graphic and shocking enough as it is the writers dont need to add their own perverted stuff.

  111. coltaine777
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Put me down as another who didn’t like the Littlefinger sexposition scene…thought it was very silly…way over the top…still an excellent episode ….

  112. Kevin Kenney
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    DaveB,

    The master of horse’s son, Hallen…or something?

  113. persephone88
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    I weakened and watched it!!! Will gladly see it again next Sunday!

    Awesome episode on so many fronts. Loved all the stuff at the Wall, good to see Jon and Sam back and I cannot wait for Jon’s talk later on with Maester Aemon. I got teary over the vows!

    Robert had a good last scene, and up until Renly said he should be the king, I was feeling the love for him. Good contrast to Robert.

    Heart breaking for poor Ned, who so wants to do what’s right! And Cersei’s true colors are slowly coming out.

    Two complaints:

    Tywin Lannister butchering his own meat? WTF?! This is the man who scoffed at Janos Slynt for being the SON OF A BUTCHER, and Tywin is doing the same? He’d never get his hands so dirty! I get the symbolism, he’s callous and does not shy away from bloodshed, but seeing him do the menial labor – uh uh. Major misstep, IMO.

    That being said, his words with Jaime were perfect – loved his delivery and loved NCW’s reactions. Great setup of Jaime’s devotion to Tyrion while Tywin sees Tyrion as the weak link. Looking forward to more more more Charles Dance!

    The other complaint – that brothel scene with Littlefinger. On numerous levels. FFS, HBO, we do not need that level of soft porn adding eye candy to your fricking exposition. For another thing, I cannot EVER see Petyr Baelish revealing his humble beginnings and inner turmoil and motivations to a couple of whores whom he obviously has no respect for. Although the writing was good as far as his description of his past with Cat, the scene was about a hairsbreadth from ridiculous between the whores all over each other and him baring his motivations to them while they’re “training”. Not at all a fan of that set-up – it’s the worst thing about HBO to me, the need to ramp up parts of the story with sex that really don’t need it. Cut the whole thing down and give us a few extra minutes with other major characters.

    Otherwise, great episode, the story is spinning along nicely and that ending scene was awesome!

  114. Bran
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Ed:Relax, people… It’s OBVIOUSLY going to be in the series, they just haven’t shown it yet.Later is just fine.

    how is it obvious in any way?

  115. Maxwell James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    I think True Blood has been a really bad influence on both this show and Boardwalk Empire. The former is unapologetically campy, and works because of it. But HBO’s other dramas are not, and when they try to imitate TB’s approach, you can see the seams straining.

  116. seanathin
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    With HBOgo crashing, it’s very possible that HBO wanted us to crash those servers, and crash them bad. Not only to help prove that GOT is a hit but to really show where the cracks are in the system. Like an MMO stress test where they want players to crash the server so they can get data and fix it.

  117. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    I do not have one complaint about that episode, they ACED it.

  118. GeorgeW
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    How did they handle Robert’s death scene? Did they play up what a feat it was for him to slay the Boar and survive as long as he did?

  119. C2
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard,

    Where is the Ep8 preview at on the GO site? I can’t seem to locate it, it just has full episodes and that “bonus” info section.

  120. TheImp
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    JRQ,

    Renly wanted to keep Joffrey out of his mother’s hands. If Joffrey proves to be the little shit that he is, they throw him off the throne and put Renly in his place.

    Renly doesn’t know that Joffrey is a bastard son of Jaime/Cersei.

  121. thejpizzel
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Great episode. I like the look on Selmy’s face when Ned yelled at his personal guards and city watch and told them not to hurt him. When they walked in the throneroom this exchange happened:

    Wife: “Hey, is that the kingsguard up there?”
    Me: “Yep”
    Wife: “Shit’s bout to go down ain’t it?”
    Me: “Yep”
    Wife: “Littlefinger’s gonna screw Ned ain’t he?”
    Me: “No way. Why would he do that?”
    Wife: (after scene) “YOU ASSHOLE”

    Anyway. I’ve got mixed emotions on the brothel scene. My wife didn’t like it. She said it was just too much. While I agree it might’ve carried on a ‘tad’ too long, the scene itself didn’t bother me. I can see Littlefinger doing shit like that. Yes, Littlefinger has some class, but I can still picture him mouthing off (pun intended) about how bad ass he is while watching two chicks go at it. So again, the scene itself didn’t bother me, maybe just a little shorter and the moaning not so loud.

  122. Andrew Phillips
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    The brothel scene gave us the reasoning behind Littlefinger screwing Ned too…in a way that we didn’t see the buildup to in the TV series vs. the books. So I think it was useful/necessary in that way.

    I suppose it would have made more sense if he wasn’t like…speaking TO the whores though – although I don’t know how else you could have done it. I kept expecting Ros to put 2+2 together and then Littlefinger to have to kill her.

  123. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    All of the longest scenes have been scenes that they’ve wrote themselves I believe.

    Robert’s Monologue (okayish)
    Thorne’s Monologue (fantastic)
    Viserys + Doreah in the bath (boring until he went bipolar)
    Robert + Cersei convo (pretty good minus the whole black haired baby bit)

  124. Kaldor
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Whatever the case, that’s the first time in the series that I thought the writers have gone too far. Sansa betrayed her Father to the Queen.

    that may be revealed later so the queens actions are more surprising to the viewer. take this as ned’s point of view…

  125. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    Put me down as someone else on board with the scene. Was it over the top to the point of being ridiculous? I think so. Did I mind that? Not one bit.

    Granted, this brash/talky Littlefinger is much more open than the book Littlefinger, as established already in the snark-off with Varys.

    I think this choice was made in service to exposition, both now and in the future. So, I’m getting used to it now.

    It’s worth noting that he’s recounting perhaps the most fatal embarassment of his life while instructing two women on how to deceive a man into thinking they like him.

    Considering the scene as something that’s actually happening rather than just fan service is an interesting exercise.

    That’s not to say it *isn’t* fan service, but you can pretend it’s connected to the actual show if you work at it.

  126. Tyrion's Scar
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Dear HBO,

    Please leave out all the sex even though the book is filled with it. It is much too gratuitous and graphic. Plus we need the space for more gaping neck wounds and dead children.

    Love [TOTALLY PLATONICALLY],

    Sexually Repressed in America

  127. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    coltaine777,

    Doesn’t Tyrion strike up his deal with them after he’s freed? I don’t think we’re far enough along in his journey back to be worried yet.

  128. Tee
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    This is my first post here and I just want to say that the sex scenes were WAY too much and unnecessary. It just seems lazy to write yet another graphic, loud sex scene and add exposition to it.
    Otherwise, the ep was awesome.

  129. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    TC: It’s not the girl on girl action that bothers me. It’s the trust no one, completely secretive Littlefinger discussing his inner desires and motivations with a whore who just arrived from the north while she “auditions” for him.

    He didn’t really reveal anything of importance. If anything his rant was just a vehicle for him to artfully coach them on how to convincingly fuck (over) a customer. Which, for Littlefinger, is just about everybody he meets, he never stops working it.

    And I wonder if they made the sex deliberately over the top in that scene, I thought it was a pretty funny scene myself.

  130. Fish
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Am i the only one here who enjoys lesbian sex ? sigh

    A great episode, loved Tywin cleaning the stag symbolism… tho he gave Jaime half his force (30k men) and the dothraki have 40k men i think it was mentioned… so they don’t seem like much of a threat if 1 “kingdom” alone has more men then them

    Drogo’s speach stole this episode, it gave me goosebumps, it was perfect

    and the ending… oh the sweet ending, and that sweet smile, loved it

  131. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    James: I loved Aiden Gillen performance in that scene but it was hard to even pay attention to what he was saying because of what was going on. I just thought the sex was way too graphic and could potentially turn off viewers, luckily it came towards the end of the season so most viewers who stuck with it are already hooked on the show but a scene like that early in the season could of lost the show viewers. It comes off really cheap and unnecessary especially in an otherwise fantastic episode. The show is graphic and shocking enough as it is the writers dont need to add their own perverted stuff.

    Man, I don’t know what people here have watched in the past, but this post and others that complain about how graphic this scene was kind of blow my mind. It was not-very-convincing softcore porn. Is it the fact that it was two women that has people saying it was so graphic? And dismembering horses and cutting down children is a-ok, but a little intense manual stimulation between two ladies of the night is over the top? I feel like I’m going to channel all those Europeans who are always saying, “Oh, you prudish Americans.”

  132. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    GeorgeW: How did they handle Robert’s death scene? Did they play up what a feat it was for him to slay the Boar and survive as long as he did?

    Unfortunately no.

  133. Kaldor
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Leofric: I also liked how they had Tywin already carving up a stag before Robert is quite dead.

    how could i miss that symblism. was just thinking somethin was weird with that beeing a stag…

    TC: This man is not going to be discussing his true desires and motivations with whores or even hinting at them, especially not a whore who is new to the city from the north who could be a spy for Varys or the queen or any one else

    exactly. that’s why i found that unbelievable first. but then, maybe he is intentionally planting false rumors… however, i liked the first part of that scene, because it shows how littlefingers mind is set. this whole “make him belief he is the greatest” thing was a good metaphor for littlefingers way of doin’ politics…

  134. BETHOD
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Just watched the webrip.Best episode yet.Ne 1 else thought Ghost looked too much dog and not enough direwolf?
    Fish,
    All the dothraki qre fierce mounted fighters.The majority of Tywin`s armies are probably conscripted farmers and other commoners.Thats wer the difference lies

  135. Tee
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    I’m a European and not prudish at all, but this scene was way too long, too loud, and it would definitely be over the top even if it was heterosexual. :) But as long as the rest of the episodes are great… It’s all cool.

  136. shadallion
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Both episodes were great.

    There are certainly differences between the show and book, but that’s okay. As long as the major plot points are hit, I”m good to go.

    Tywin does seem to be switched with Randall Tarly though, as someone mentioned earlier.

  137. Kaldor
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    Tee: It just seems lazy to write yet another graphic, loud sex scene and add exposition to it.

    thejpizzel: So again, the scene itself didn’t bother me, maybe just a little shorter and the moaning not so loud.

    Ed: I had NO problem with the LittleFinger scene. That was hot. They can show all the scenes like that they want.
    And it was NOT 10 minutes long people.

    Tee: this scene was way too long, too loud

    hihi, i can imagine how everyone sat in their livin room with friends and chips and the volume turned up, and suddenly everyone got uncomfortable with the scene sounding like a porno and the seconds wouldn’t pass :D

  138. James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    I never complain about sex and nudity in premium cable shows. People having been complaining about the unnecessary added sex and nudity since the first episode but it never bothered me because it was pretty much on par with a lot of premium cable shows recently, some gratuitous boob shots or maybe a quick racy sex scene but that scene with Littlefinger took it to another level. I’ve never seen a scene that pornographic and lengthy on a mainstream premium cable drama(yes I have watched Spartacus) and I dont know why HBO or David Benioff and D.B. Weiss decided that Game of Thrones should have a scene like that. I cant stand anytime someone dares object to some unnecessary sex scene they’re automatically labeled a prude and have hang ups. Thats like me saying anyone who liked that scene is a pervert. Even after the first minute or so I thought it was a bit much but then they actually had the girl start fingering the other girls asshole. Really?? Anybody who objects to them adding a scene like this in Game of Thrones is now labeled a prude. The main reason I hate that scene is because I want the show to be a big success and a scene like that will not help. A scene like that can not help gain viewers only lose them. The 6th episode has gotten an overwhelming positive response from reader and nonreaders and the buzz is building and the show keeps getting better and I can only imagine how many people are going tune is next sunday and be really taken aback and turned off by that scene. Like I said luckily they added late in the season so anybody who finds that scene really lewd and distasteful are most likely too hooked by now to give up the show. Honestly I know its very unlikely but I hope HBO removes it before it airs on sunday. Its a really unnecessary and over the top scene and even out of character for Littlefinger.

  139. WyGlaaf
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion’s Scar: Dear HBO, Please leave out all the sex even though the book is filled with it. It is much too gratuitous and graphic. Plus we need the space for more gaping neck wounds and dead children.Love [TOTALLY PLATONICALLY],Sexually Repressed in America

    Tyrion’s Scar wins the thread imo. Glad someone else sees it as clearly as I do. It’s kinda funny, like how the Renly/Loras scene brought out all the latent homophobia…

  140. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Need more HOUND

  141. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    James,

    You really think the show is going to lose viewers over that scene? Funny thing to me is I barely paid attention to what the women were doing because I was trying to listen so carefully to what Littlefinger was saying. I didn’t even notice the fingered asshole, hmmm, maybe I’ll have to watch it again….

  142. OddlyOtter
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    I knew what was going to happen at the end and I still gasped and said “OMG” haha. Such a good story!

  143. DH87
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Well, I finally got the whole episode to load and play, over an hour and a half. When it stalls, you go back to approximately two or three minutes before the stall, wait a few minutes and start Old Betsy up again. Rinse and repeat. The Dothraki horde is ten times faster than HBO Go. Ruins the drama, alas, but great, great episode nonetheless.
    HBO tech folks? Run behind the horses for a few miles til you get this thing up to speed.

  144. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    OddlyOtter:
    I knew what was going to happen at the end and I still gasped and said “OMG” haha. Such a good story!

    I read it I don’t know how many times, but all of the sudden, when Ned was summoned by “Kind Joffrey” my tummy tied and I had goosebumps!!!
    Oh no! It’s happening again! I thought… LOL

  145. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Bran: how is it obvious in any way?

    Because it’s one of the Lynchpins of the whole series.

  146. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Ghost. Fcuking. Barked.

    ………..srsly.

    :(

  147. C2
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Jenny: Dear HBO,
    Please leave out all the sex even though the book is filled with it. It is much too gratuitous and graphic. Plus we need the space for more gaping neck wounds and dead children.
    Love [TOTALLY PLATONICALLY],
    Sexually Repressed in America

    Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:12 pm | Permalink
    Need more HOUND

    /THIS

  148. dtb
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    I have to say that in that Littlefinger scene, his dialogue was great- but it was a bit much for me. While everything they have done this season has been tasteful and had a purpose in developing characters- I thought this was just blatantly pornographic. If I want to watch porn, I’ll watch porn- but I don’t watch Game of Thrones to watch porn. I feel like it really distracted from a great episode.

  149. Mick J
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    About Littlefinger being too brash/not secretive enough:

    People complaining do realize this is TV, right? There is no inner monologue. He HAS to talk to somebody to develop his character. Who can he talk to reveal his inner self? Not Ned certainly. Not Varys, their scene only showed he was scheming but not much else. Talking to his whores is all he can really do, and Aidan Gillen was brilliant.

    As for being too explicit: GASP. TITTIES. Let’s see:
    - horse beheading
    - numerous throats being cut/slit/ripped out by direwolves and then they ZOOM in on it
    - splinter through the throat, and then LINGER on the blood bubbles
    - blood everywhere, pretty much

    But TITS. SEX. IT’S TOO OFFENSIVE. HEAVEN HELP US, MY EYES AND DELICATE F*CKING SENSIBILITIES CANNOT HANDLE THIS OBSCEN — Hey, look! Stabbed right through the eye and LINGER on it! Uh, winning! Great TV, feel the drama!

  150. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,
    Remember: A non-consensual knife in the eye is always more acceptable than a friendly finger up the backside.

  151. TC
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: He didn’t really reveal anything of importance. If anything his rant was just a vehicle for him to artfully coach them on how to convincingly fuck (over) a customer. Which, for Littlefinger, is just about everybody he meets, he never stops working it.

    And I wonder if they made the sex deliberately over the top in that scene, I thought it was a pretty funny scene myself.

    Really the best way to consistently f*ck over other people is for no one to know that is your intention. Him discussing his love for Catelyn and advertising how loves to screw people over with a whore from the north as she is auditioning for him just seems the exact opposite of anything a person who plots years in advance and trusts no one would do. I feel he should be portrayed more like Ben from LOST, (LOST spoiler)where when you first meet him you think maybe he is innocent, or suspect he may be an other, but at worst an agent, only to later find out he is the mastermind leading them. Now perhaps they can remedy that to some degree if we find out that Ros has been spying for him all this time and is a trusted agent of his, but so far there is nothing to suggest that. But you aren’t going to successfully dupe too many people if you advertise it to random whores who come to audition at your brothel.

  152. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Mick J,

    Ha! Jinx!

  153. TC
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Mick J:
    About Littlefinger being too brash/not secretive enough:

    People complaining do realize this is TV, right? There is no inner monologue. He HAS to talk to somebody to develop his character. Who can he talk to reveal his inner self? Not Ned certainly. Not Varys, their scene only showed he was scheming but not much else. Talking to his whores is all he can really do, and Aidan Gillen was brilliant.

    For some characters that is true, but Littlefinger is never a PoV character anyway so we don’t get his inner monologue in the books either. There is no inner monologue for him to reveal. They already established that he had a thing for Catelyn several times, and him wanting to screw people over would be pretty clear just by the end of the episode when he is holding Ned at daggerpoint saying “I told you not to trust me”.

  154. dtb
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I don’t care about them showing “titties” as you call it, but I don’t see ANY purpose for the display of finger sex in that scene other than titillating the viewers. And it sure was effective, and really distracting to me for the rest of the episode.

  155. coraxery
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    All I could think about during the Littlefinger scene was: Why? There are so many things that they have to eliminate in order to get this thing down to 10 episodes and certain characters only get so much screen time so if you add a scene that doesn’t exist in the books it better be damn good.

    So for me an added scene like Tywin and Jaime in the tent was great.

    Littlefinger with two whores baring his soul was utter crap. We know what Littlefinger is and what he does and what his motivations are, there was no reason to take these minutes away from other characters, except for the T&A quotient that they are trying to fill with each episode.

  156. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    C2,

    Hehe, I wish to say I only wrote the second part of the message about needing more HOUND!

    I don’t mind the sex as long as it’s not taking away too much time for the plot.

  157. Alyx
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    I really enjoyed the episode, but I agree with others who thought the Littlefinger “sexposition” scene was weak. To everyone who is labelling those who disliked it “prudes”, listen to how ridiculous the scene sounds: “And now we cut to Littlefinger’s brothel, where he is having whore auditions!”. Seriously? Gillen looked so ridiculous just standing / sitting there, delivering these really revealing lines about his character’s childhood with a completely straight face. The wanting “everything” bit was well delivered, but the entire set up required so much suspension of disbelief that it really cheapened the show for me. I was hoping for a tv show I could at least respect as good television, and the rest of the episode delivered, but this scene was such a waste of time. It was an obvious excuse for a sex scene, nothing more. We shouldn’t have to make excuses as to why the scene matters or why they did it; if it doesn’t work it just doesn’t work. When every episode is packed full of things that need to happen, that four minutes was really a waste of space. At the very least, a more realistic scene could have taken its place. I really hope that it doesn’t happen again.

  158. Kaldor
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    someone pleaz make a metal/hardcore track out of drogo’s speech. i listened to it serveral times now. it kicks ass. DOTHRAKI METAL!

  159. persephone88
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Mick J: About Littlefinger being too brash/not secretive enough:People complaining do realize this is TV, right? There is no inner monologue. He HAS to talk to somebody to develop his character. Who can he talk to reveal his inner self? Not Ned certainly. Not Varys, their scene only showed he was scheming but not much else. Talking to his whores is all he can really do, and Aidan Gillen was brilliant.As for being too explicit: GASP. TITTIES. Let’s see:- horse beheading- numerous throats being cut/slit/ripped out by direwolves and then they ZOOM in on it- splinter through the throat, and then LINGER on the blood bubbles- blood everywhere, pretty muchBut TITS. SEX. IT’S TOO OFFENSIVE. HEAVEN HELP US, MY EYES AND DELICATE F*CKING SENSIBILITIES CANNOT HANDLE THIS OBSCEN — Hey, look! Stabbed right through the eye and LINGER on it! Uh, winning! Great TV, feel the drama!

    Distracting would be a better word. Sorry, LF, your monologue is just not interesting enough to let you simply speak it, we have to keep cutting away to the whores to keep the – ahem – *interest* of the viewers.

    A bit insulting, really, like the plot itself isn’t enough to hold our interest.

  160. dtb
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    That Drogo scene was soooooo good. I was beginning wonder why they got Jason Mamoa at all, as they’ve had nothing for him to do through the first 5, but with this scene and his lines in episode 6, I am really impressed.

  161. James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    You guys are right. Since they have a lot of blood and violence in this show they should be able to put as much unnecessary pornographic stuff as they want in the show and anybody who doesnt like must be a sexually repressed America. They should also add a scene where Loras and Renly take turns jerking each other off, surely none of you guys would have an issue with that I mean they show graphic violence why not have a scene where 2 dudes jerk each other off. Sex is natural after all and if you have issues with an unnecessary scene like that in Game of Thrones you obviously have sexually hang ups.

  162. Maxwell James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Sigh. The problem with the LF/Ros scene is not that it is “too explicit,” but rather that it betrays the producers’ lack of confidence in their material. Which is unfortunate because the material is pretty damn good!

    Look, I’m all for a revealing monologue from Littlefinger, and I’m fine with him giving it while others on screen are being revealing in other ways. But it’s possible to have too much of anything, and this scene ultimately ended up as a soft-porn distraction rather than a meaningful addition to the story. That’s unfortunate, because Littlefinger’s monologue was written well and delivered well, but I suspect most viewers had trouble paying much attention to it.

    As for the comparisons with the violence: pretty much all of the violence in the show has been canon (the Jaime-Ned showdown is a notable exception). That’s simply not true for the sex scenes, especially those featuring Esme Bianco. And that’s fine – I’m all for making additions so long as they actually improve the story. On balance, this one didn’t.

  163. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    James,

    I know you’re trying to make a point, but I won’t mind them adding that in S2.

    You know, as long as there’s a discussion on the current balance of power while it’s happening.

  164. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I realize this is pure no-prize territory, but if I had to somehow tie it in, I’d say it was an example of Littlefinger getting two people to screw each other while he directs the whole thing, sort of like what he’s describing as his main tactic.

  165. phiaV
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    ok firstly, I’m sick of Roz now, I wish she would just go away :(

    But, omg fantastic episode, even knowing what was coming I was still yelling at Ned not to go in the throne room. Was great to see Ghost (yay!!) and the scene of Jon and Sam saying their vows gave me serious goosebumps.

    Oh and Tywin, perfect casting, I especially loved the way they subtly portrayed the usually confident and arrogant Jaime as timid and wary in the presence of his father.

    I couldn’t be happier with the way this show has been handled, they have stayed so faithful to the books whilst adding extra scenes that feel like a new extended version of the books. Just awesome.

  166. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: Maxwell James, I realize this is pure no-prize territory, but if I had to somehow tie it in, I’d say it was an example of Littlefinger getting two people to screw each other while he directs the whole thing, sort of like what he’s describing as his main tactic.

    That was my take on it too. Now whether or not they didn’t realize or didn’t care that the hot girl-on-girl action itself would be too distracting is the question. But personally I like the scene seen in that light, and thought it was less clunky than some of the other sexposition scenes, and actually admirably ballsy in the way they took it to the limit and then kept going.

  167. juseas
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    This episode was utterly amazing and i think the best of the bunch

    The tension and drama were perfectly brought to screen, so good that i got goosebumps although i knew all this from the book.
    The effects work was great. Lots of amazing new shots of the wall and a fucking huge tent camp for Tywins’s army.

    Another thing that i loved was the placement of the Lannister guards, the kingsguard and the city watch in the throne room when Ned and his men entered.
    The setup and cinematography were frightening and epic at the same time.

    The Littlefinger scene was good, sex wasn’t a problem considering they showed much more difficult to look at violence scenes throughout the show.

    Typical prude americans. They don’t care if you have a 10 sec shot of bloody wounds, dead children and savaged animals but suddenly if you have a longer softcore sex scene it’s hard to watch…
    I will never get that sort of double morality, it makes no sense at all…

  168. Maxwell James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Sure. And I can even appreciate the self-awareness of such a scene, with LF as porn director (Indeed, for a while now I’ve fantasized that should they get to book 4, that LF’s description of Harry the Heir’s genealogy could be played out in montage (or even split-screen) form. From my perspective that’s one of the most cinematic scenes in the entire series).

    But I’m also a big believer in the notion that the camera tells us what to pay attention to. And in this case, the camera was telling us to pay attention to Ros ploughing the other prostitute from behind, for a good long time, while Littlefinger said some things.

    And imo, that’s all about the legacy of True Blood on HBO’s other (non-Simon) dramas. Which is too bad. Camp is a lot of fun when the goal is a campy good time, but otherwise it tends to be a non-fun distraction.

  169. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I’d say that you make a reasoned argument, and I definitely wouldn’t defend this scene as being something it’s not.

    I think for me it was a “take a deep breath because this is going to happen” moment. Once I realized what they were doing I was personally happy they went on the side of too far rather than not far enough.

    And, granted, my take may have been skewed because I already knew everything Littlefinger was talking about, so I didn’t feel like I was being distracted from anything.

  170. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Trollsbane:
    “I always wanted to be a wizard.”

    Brilliant

    100% agree. Best line of the night, possibly best line in the show yet. Simply hilarious.

  171. DH87
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Where are all of those posters who poo-pooed the notion that former porn actress Sibel Kekilli was hired for graphic sex scenes in GOT and claimed that she must have been hired for her brilliant acting resume? I think we see the direction D&D are going with the Littlefinger scene and should prepare for more—and more graphic—to come.
    And I like the statistic that prove the scenes D&D wrote are the longest—where are those who said I was over-reacting about hubris among show runners?
    That said, their faults thus far have been minor compared to the ream job given the True Blood original material, thank the Seven.
    B. Cogman, you guys are still doing fantastically well, but LET GEORGE DO IT. You’ll still get paid and look like geniuses, guys.

  172. Iker Gernika
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    By season 2 they will have to solve the Direwolfs “problem”, it´s just ridiculous how every scene with the “dogs” is painful to watch, these “dogs” can´t act.
    Love it the scene with Tywin and Jaime.
    Waiting for Stannis, Melisandre, Davos and all the second season´s new characters.

  173. Oi!
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    ASOIAF fans bitching over sex scenes, LOL it’s not as if grrm gets a chubby whenever there’s a chance of some graphic sex scene depiction in the books (and food)… but of course in the books every sex scene has a deeeeeeeeep meaning behind it.

  174. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    I guess the trouble is that there is a lot of Anonymous Tits-Ass-Dick Addicts watching HBO just for the purpose of the sex scenes and the producers know it.
    So, I guess D&D have certain obligations to fulfil.
    The sex in the books, although there is a lot of it, is treated with the same casualness as the violonce.
    Arya is being threatened/offered sex plenty of times without much ado, women get raped brutally, Cersei and Jaime are having it off next to the corps of their son, Dany is tangentially fucked after eating the horse heart…
    Just as people’s throats get cut, they are maimed, burnt, etc etc etc — there are constantly crows picking out eyes and maggots crawling through brains but it’s just part of the scenery in a way.
    That’s what so special about it.
    It’s not like the usual every-100-page-romp you get from Ken Follett et al.
    It’s just part of the depressing world of Westeros at wartime.
    I wished the sex was treated more like that in the Show too.
    The naked winetrader was ok – that seemed very “Martin-ish”, there are constantly “members” flying about. But the brothel scene was “in you face baby” and hence it didn’t fit the tone, I think.

  175. C2
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    My bad, I hit quote and it inserted that other one, but since I also agreed with that I copypasta’d. What a crazy notion to expect “quote” actually quote the post you click on! :)

  176. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    “Blatantly pornographic” yadda yadda.

    Most of you have clearly never SEEN porn.

  177. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    I guess the trouble is that there is a lot of Anonymous Tits-Ass-Dick Addicts watching HBO just for the purpose of the sex scenes and the producers know it.

    Is this actually true? Have they not invented the internet yet where these people live? Considering what any 12-year-old can find with a google search, this ain’t dick, so to speak.

  178. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    paulgude:
    Steven Swanson,
    Remember: A non-consensual knife in the eye is always more acceptable than a friendly finger up the backside.

    I see season 1 scenes like this as filtering out all the prudes and half-hearts that aren’t prepared for the clusterfuck of awesome that is Storm of Swords…

    Ladies, get your fainting couches ready, because I feel the vapors comin’ on….

  179. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Is anybody as amazed as I am by how much Charles Dance and NCW look like father and son???

  180. Tee
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    juseas,

    Don’t know if you noticed, but not only Americans are complaining about the sex scene. And the comparison with dead kids and animals is weird – the horse didn’t get decapitated for 10 minutes, neither did they show Bran falling for 10 minutes.

  181. C2
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Tee,

    I think you’re basically daring someone to make a 10 minute youtube loop of bran getting pushed out of that tower now.

  182. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    James: Even after the first minute or so I thought it was a bit much but then they actually had the girl start fingering the other girls asshole. Really??

    True Blood featured a scene wherein a lead character hate-fucks another character so badly that he twists her head around backward so that he doesn’t have to look at her face, before renewing a more vigorous thrusting pace. The show did not lost any popularity as a result.

    I think we can all survive some good-natured anal play.

  183. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson:
    Jenny,

    Is this actually true? Have they not invented the internet yet where these people live? Considering what any 12-year-old can find with a google search, this ain’t dick, so to speak.

    I agree with you there. It is far too easy to get free porn that to pay a premium cable price for it is absolutely ridiculous.

  184. afe
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Damryn of Dorne,
    Ghost. Fcuking. Barked.

    ………..srsly.

    This. Why oh why.

  185. Tee
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    C2,

    :)

  186. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    cardus: I see season 1 scenes like this as filtering out all the prudes and half-hearts that aren’t prepared for the clusterfuck of awesome that is Storm of Swords…Ladies, get your fainting couches ready, because I feel the vapors comin’ on….

    I’m rereading Clash right now and it’s at least as bad. I wonder if they’re making Sansa even less likable now so it’s not as shocking seeing her repeatedly beaten and humiliated by grown armored men. And I wonder how in depth they’ll show the Tickler’s work (which I’m morbidly curious about the details of, myself).

  187. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    BarkingGhostGate actually took longer to rear its head than I thought it would, and has been much mellower than expected. Oh well, there’s always the official recap thread next week.

  188. OldGran
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    I will need to watch ep 7 again…I missed a bit of it when, during the endless sex scene I went out to the kitchen and unloaded my dishwasher and putzed around for a while.
    Things I liked about this ep. Jon Snow and the Night’s Watch taking their vows. Ghost finding the severed hand. Tywin Lannister! He looks like he is Jaime’s father.
    All in all a good episode.
    Problem with showing two eps at once I’ve blended them together in my mind.

  189. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    That really struck me, too. Great job with casting!

  190. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Re: Ghost barking. I didn’t even notice until it was pointed out here. This has been the same for several of the book vs. show minigates. I can’t tell if this is because I missed some crucial details on first reading, or if I am just not at all bothered by the differences between the two. I’m trying to think if there’s been anything that’s happened so far in the show that has made me think “OH FUCKING HELL! WHY WOULD THEY CHANGE THAT! HUGE MISTAKE!” Mostly just apathetic indifference coupled with curiosity over how they will handle iron out the changes they make.

    Maybe I’m just dead inside. :(

  191. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: I agree with you there.It is far too easy to get free porn that to pay a premium cable price for it is absolutely ridiculous.

    Well, SOME people prefer entertaining Drama WITH sex scenes.
    The incredibly gigantonormous boddice-ripper-industry lives of the same thing.
    Adventure and bonking.
    Always successful, ask Shakespeare.
    So – if it didn’t sell, HBO wouldn’t make it.

  192. Jimm
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    I don’t get why leaving out Sansa’s involvement is important in any way. Say they cut out that aspect entirely, it doesn’t really change anything important besides diminishing Sansa’s guilt.

  193. Jimm
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Which could easily be replaced by her feeling like shit for being an asshole to Ned for all this time before he got killed.

  194. Keaton
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Another fantastic episode, aside from Littlefinger’s digression with Ros. They have a LOT of ground to cover in the last three episodes…

  195. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    Agreed completely. Nothing finer than something both visually and intellectually stimulating. I was just trying to point out that I doubt people are paying for HBO merely to see boobs on screen. It is my hope that subscribers are people who like good TV first and foremost, and have nothing wrong with goodly amounts of titillation.

  196. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Jimm,

    I agree. I was never really clear on how Sansa telling Cersei caused Ned’s downfall when Ned laid out all his plans to Cersei in the Godswood anyways. Is it because Sansa told Cersei before Ned and thus Cersei acted quickly to remove Robert during the hunt? If that’s the case, I’m not sure how they’re going to convey that in the show since Sansa and Cersei’s conversation should have happened already.

  197. Franny Bee
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Littlefinger’s exposition during the sex scene was ridiculous. You can’t compare it to violence bc no one is talking about their life goals/motivations while Gregor is horsehead removing in the background.

    Charles Dance blew me away. That’s Jaime’s DAD!

    I knew what was gonna happen with Ned, and I still didn’t want to see it happen. That’s good TV. /heartbroken/

  198. Lars
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Tywin was awesome, and his scene with Jaime was great. Wonderful symbolism with the stag.

    They did not have Cersei try to seduce Ned, but I don’t mind it. It wouldn’t fit the show characters so well, so I don’t mind.

    The Littlefinger/Ros scene went on too long, otherwise it was OK. They are trying to explain his character motivations to newcomers, and I think it was a reasonably effective scene at doing that.

  199. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Maki:
    Amazing episode.What really struck me were the Tywin/Jaimie and Littlefinger w/whores scenes.These were two of the best non-book scenes so far.

    I HATED that Littlefinger scene. The “exposition while a guy fucks a whore” motif is getting old. So what do they do? Exposition while a guy watches two whores fuck each other! WAY TO GO!

    The whole thing felt like cheap titilation with Littlefinger backstory (to justify his actions at the end of the episode). I thought it was terrible.

  200. john2
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t even think about the Littlefinger/Whores scene. I mean there were some naked girls, wow. I didn’t even react to it. I thought Littlefingers rant was interesting though. It really set up what happened later ;p

  201. Victoria Cole
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton,

    Gregory Kelton: I HATED that Littlefinger scene. The “exposition while a guy fucks a whore” motif is getting old. So what do they do? Exposition while a guy watches two whores fuck each other! WAY TO GO!The whole thing felt like cheap titilation with Littlefinger backstory (to justify his actions at the end of the episode). I thought it was terrible.

    Oh I agree. There was so much material from the book to cover and the producers decide to shove in a gratuitous, clearly out of place sex scene that added absolutely nothing to the story. Are D&D really 15 year old boys?

  202. Bobben
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    The obsession you guys seem to have with the outdrawn sex scene overshadows the greatness of this episode, if you ask me. I get the feeling a lot of people jump on the indignation train simply because it’s there and since everyone else is doing it. Episode seven is the most exiting episode to date, a fact that hopefully will get through eventually.

  203. Maxwell James
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    One thing I’ll add as a positive comment on this episode:

    For all the criticism she’s gotten for playing Cersei as too downcast and stonefaced, I greatly enjoyed watching Lena Headey’s performance in this episode and the last one. I really think her take on the character comes off as much more intelligent than in the books, to the point where she’s downright scary at times. And what’s not to like about that?

  204. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Woof! Woof!

    WOOF! WOOF!

    And they fucked Tywin up too. Shame, because the actor can pull of the real Tywin easy.
    The calm, collected, eyes of steel and mind of blades Tywin.
    But instead we get this nervous guy who OH SO SUBTLY IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY is skinning a stag.

    THAT IS SO SUBTLE PRODUCERS AND WRITERS I CONGRATULATE YOU ON YOUR SUBTLETY!

    ITS SO FUCKING SUBTLE!!

    WOOF! FUCKING WOOF! WOOF!

    And you know whats the worst about it? Its not like they record the audio on the spot so the dog just happened to bark and then they couldnt get rid off it. Somebody actually had to put that in there intentionally.

  205. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    Man, am I the only one around here that likes hot girl-on-girl action?LoL!!!I had NO problem with the LittleFinger scene.That was hot.They can show all the scenes like that they want.

    And it was NOT 10 minutes long people.Let’s leave the hyperbole at home.

    1) It felt 10 minutes long.

    2) Yes, you were probably the only one. The rest of us don’t need “as many scenes like that as they want”. It was gratuitous and immature. One of the things I always like about ASOIAF is that the sex is very real and in your face, but it’s all plot driven and/or character development (Tyrion’s “relationships” with whores, or Jamie/Cersei’s twincest, or Jon and Ygritte. This crap is just titilation for titilation’s sake. I can imagine this producation meeting:

    D&D1: “Hey, we need Littlefinger to give a soliloquy, why don’t we have him do it while banging a whore”.
    D&D2: “Nah, we’ve done too much exposition with the speaker banging a whore, it’s getting tired.”
    **silence**
    **silence**
    D&D1: “What about while two whores bang each other”.
    D&D2: “NOW you’re talking”

  206. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    I never read Sansa to be deliberately denouncing Ned.
    She truly believed in the goodness of Cersei who had done her very best to convince Sansa of her devotion.
    Sansa doesn’t want to leave and Ned makes the fatal mistake of not telling her what’s been going on.
    He should’ve been frank with his children in a better world – and then we would not have a book to read.

  207. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton,

    It’s so absurd to have Ros travel from Oslo to Rome in order to work as a whore for Littlefinger.
    Is she the only woman having sex in Westeros?
    And if I see her do that face again (showing her teeth whilst pursing her lips) I am going to vomit.

  208. Jenny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James:
    One thing I’ll add as a positive comment on this episode:

    For all the criticism she’s gotten for playing Cersei as too downcast and stonefaced, I greatly enjoyed watching Lena Headey’s performance in this episode and the last one. I really think her take on the character comes off as much more intelligent than in the books, to the point where she’s downright scary at times. And what’s not to like about that?

    Agree… Cersei in the throneroom – finally rid of Robert – is the book Cersei to a t.
    How she tears apart the paper!!! Yihaa!

  209. Amy
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    Are all the people defending the brothel sex scene the same ones who decried the Renly/Loras scene last week?

  210. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    That scene with Littlefinger, Roz – of all people, and the other girl was totally stupid.

    Right there with Loras-Renly one.

  211. Edric Dayne
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Hmm…

    This episode was good, but perhaps it suffered a bit from inevitability. For the last 20 minutes or so, it was obvious exactly what had to happen and when. Esme is very cute, but perhaps we’ve been seeing too much of her these last few episodes? (You can interpret that however you like.)

    It must be an automatic reaction to leap to the defense of anyone being criticized online, but I don’t understand it in this case. All the criticism of HBO is absolutely valid. They failed to provide a promised service to paying customers, simply because they hadn’t bothered to gear up technically to point that they could fulfill that promise.

    I still believe in intellectual property rights. Under most circumstances, that is.

  212. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Amy,

    I was fine with Loras/Renly. Actually, I thought it was much more in-place than the Littlefinger scene.

    I think most of us “defending” the Littlefinger scene recognize that it’s pretty rediculous. It’s just that our tolerance for that sort of thing is higher than the people who hate it.

    The highly negative reaction makes even minor acceptance an endorsement of protracted ass-play by contrast.

  213. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    Where are all of those posters who poo-pooed the notion that former porn actress Sibel Kekilli was hired for graphic sex scenes in GOT and claimed that she must have been hired for her brilliant acting resume? I think we see the direction D&D are going with the Littlefinger scene and should prepare for more—and more graphic—to come.
    And I like the statistic that prove the scenes D&D wrote are the longest—where are those who said I was over-reacting about hubris among show runners?
    That said, their faults thus far have been minor compared to the ream job given the True Blood original material, thank the Seven.
    B. Cogman, you guys are still doing fantastically well, but LET GEORGE DO IT. You’ll still get paid and look like geniuses, guys.

    Anyone want to translate this into English?

  214. Edric Dayne
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton: I HATED that Littlefinger scene. The “exposition while a guy fucks a whore” motif is getting old.

    I agree as well. Sex doesn’t bother me. Unecessary exposition does, especially when it messes with a character. Littlefinger, in the books, is as good a player as he is, and as intriguing a character as he is, for several reasons, but among them is that at least until book 4, he keeps his own council. We never now what he’s planning because we don’t know his motivations, and we don’t know his motivations, at least in part, because he doesn’t blab about them to every whore in the city.

  215. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    I refuse to believe that you, of all people, found something you hated in an episode.

  216. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    Bobben:
    The obsession you guys seem to have with the outdrawn sex scene overshadows the greatness of this episode, if you ask me. I get the feeling a lot of people jump on the indignation train simply because it’s there and since everyone else is doing it. Episode seven is the most exiting episode to date, a fact that hopefully will get through eventually.

    Have you been paying attention to these threads all season? Every little pissant phobia or distaste someone has gets blown up into a 40-message debate, continually overshadowing the fantastic adaptation this series is turning into.

  217. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    This was always my take, too. Sansa does know that she’s going over Ned’s head in trying to get the Queen to help her stay, but she doesn’t know she’s putting Ned in danger.

  218. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton:
    2) Yes, you were probably the only one.The rest of us don’t need “as many scenes like that as they want”.It was gratuitous and immature.

    Yes, we know. Sex is always immature; but, daggers through the skull? Fucking awesome!

    Please….

  219. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    DH87: B. Cogman, you guys are still doing fantastically well, but LET GEORGE DO IT. You’ll still get paid and look like geniuses, guys.

    Let’s wait until the episode that GRRM wrote solo airs before going this far.

    EDIT: Also, if you want GRRM to write every episode on his own, and act as de facto showrunner, you can basically say goodbye to The WInds of Winter and A Dream of Spring ever seeing the light of day.

  220. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Amy:
    Are all the people defending the brothel sex scene the same ones who decried the Renly/Loras scene last week?

    Only if you can’t read or have a poor memory.

    Screw the homophobes. Sorry guys, gay sex is part of human nature too….

  221. Max
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Well, I don’t have HBOGO since I’m not even from the US and I found the episode online and downloaded it. HBO think they can restrict people but apparently they cant.

  222. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: The Smiling Knight, I refuse to believe that you, of all people, found something you hated in an episode.

    It’s a sockpuppet trying to sully his good name, gotta be.

  223. Kevin Kenney
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: Amy, The highly negative reaction makes even minor acceptance an endorsement of protracted ass-play by contrast.

    Bwahahaha!

  224. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: Let’s wait until the episode that GRRM wrote solo airs before going this far.EDIT: Also, if you want GRRM to write every episode on his own, and act as de facto showrunner, you can basically say goodbye to The WInds of Winter and A Dream of Spring ever seeing the light of day.

    I’m thinking they meant that they should adhere to George’s text more strictly than they have been. This despite the fact that this is possibly the most faithful adaptation of any book I’ve seen, ever.

    I’m watching this with multiple minds. One trying to enjoy it as a series on its own, one fanboy giggling at favorite scenes, and one as a person who’s read the books multiple times and has tried to imagine them cinematically, and comparing what they’ve come up with. And the only way to honestly do this is to acknowledge the complexity of bringing something like this to the screen, including all the various interests at play and unpredictable variables (like the most wolflike dogs ending up damn near impossible to work with). And so I’m evaluating each new scene in the light of the fact that they’re having to cut so much out, so using these new scenes to accentuate certain character arcs, some very long term, and spell things out for new viewers that can’t be easily explained like in the books. I think Littlefinger’s diabolical diarrhea of the mouth was building toward his betrayal at the end of the episode. There was definitely a little dumbing down going on there.

  225. Schlafmohn
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    I was scanning the comments for a shout-out to Joseph Campo….but nothing. Am I seeing ghosts?If yes, then there is someone that looks a lot like him.

  226. Vellyr
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    I noticed that Larry Williams made an unintentional prediction that hit pretty close to the mark today when he said “I hope Tywin gets his shit rocked”.

  227. Khal Zhen
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    At some point one must accept sex as human nature and not worth getting into a fuss about. If you want an immature take on sex, stop by my remedial high school math lab some time. Being surrounded by high school freshmen really helps you realize that “immature” is very overused and generally should be replaced with “not my taste”.

  228. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    Hey, if you’re gonna plough on camera, at least get your money’s worth… She did.

    Maxwell James:
    paulgude,

    And in this case, the camera was telling us to pay attention to Ros ploughing the other prostitute from behind, for a good long time, while Littlefinger said some things.

  229. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard:
    The Smiling Knight,

    I refuse to believe that you, of all people, found something you hated in an episode.

    Because we all know that wolves bark. Right?

    Thats what they do, they go thorugh the FUCKING WILDERNESS AND THEY SCARE THE PREY WITH BARKING!

    THEY GO WOOF! WOOF!

  230. Fabian Schneider
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    Domesticated wolves would actually bark. They are not that far from their canine cousins, it is mostly the being raised by men part that makes barking part of their behaviour. So as for Ghost barking, it actually fits.

  231. Shandy
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    At first I thought that this was the episode GRRM wrote, and when it got to the Littlefinger scene I thought “REALLY?! George wrote that?!”

    Don’t have a huge problem with the scene – I think what bothered me about it was that it took away a little of my perception of the character. I like that we never really hear Littlefinger talking about his own motivations in the book, it retains his mystery and threat. Seeing him on his downtime like this, I don’t know. Maybe just felt like it cheapened him a little? Also the fact that the sex was SO LOUD and I was trying to watch it without drawing family members into my room. Keep it down, guys, geez!

    Surely all the Ros scenes make new viewers feel like she’s going to be a really important character. I think they should have perhaps tried to spend more time on characters like Bronn – because in all the newbie reviews nobody knows who he is exactly.

    ANYWAY. Both episodes rocked my socks for the most part. I am such a sentimental fool for these characters. I feel sorry for EVERYONE who dies – Viserys with his little boy face, Ser Vardis, Robert (always had a soft spot for Robert despite hating that he was the ruin of Ned, and Mark Addy just made me love him more), even the wine merchant because of the horrible, horrible fate that awaited him. Gods help me for the episodes to come @_@

  232. Trent Schell
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    For the people complaining about HBO GO:

    I think it was their way of having a stress-test for their new service. How else are you going to get that many people to log on simultaneously? Hopefully it will help them improve future reliability.

    P.S. I’d actually have been disappointed if it didn’t crash. Glad to see that many people are wanting more.

  233. Mike Chair
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    First, finger sex is safe sex. Okay?

    As for Roz, there’s something about a girl who will show you her hoo hoo at the toss of a coin that makes me want to watch.

    Finally, as for you people who were wondering why you weren’t seeing enough direwolves: IT’S BECAUSE THEY BARK! If you had wolves that barked wouldn’t you be embarrassed? If he starts chasing his tail or drinking water from a little bowl that says “Ghost” on it I’m going to demand my money back. Enough is enough.

    Actually, I didn’t even notice Ghost barking (tired) but I’ll take all your words for it.

  234. TC
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    Edric Dayne: I agree as well. Sex doesn’t bother me. Unecessary exposition does, especially when it messes with a character. Littlefinger, in the books, is as good a player as he is, and as intriguing a character as he is, for several reasons, but among them is that at least until book 4, he keeps his own council. We never now what he’s planning because we don’t know his motivations, and we don’t know his motivations, at least in part, because he doesn’t blab about them to every whore in the city.

    That’s exactly my point. We already know Littlefinger has a thing for Catelyn. We also find out that he fucks people over in the end scene where he holds Ned at dagger point and tells him “I told you not to trust me”.

    Even basicly the same scene but editing out the parts where he talks about Catelyn and what he really wants have worked for me. Him explaining how to dupe or fuck someone over is fine, him explaining his motivations to whores he just met is the issue for me.

    Certainly some people are anti-sex scene period, but let’s not like this is a scene that was in the book that people are complaining about. Considering how many sex scenes that were actually in the book that they been cut that could have shown to this point, and how much other material that was in the book that had to be cut due to time constraints, this scene just seems unneeded, and completely against Littlefinger’s character.

  235. Yayayaya
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    persephone88,

    Your ‘major misstep’ number 1 is one of the dumbest statements I’ve heard, makes no sense. Cleaning a deer in thefield has nothing to do with what he scoffed at Janos for. This was his father career lineage, not cleaning a deer in a camp

  236. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider:
    Domesticated wolves would actually bark. They are not that far from their canine cousins, it is mostly the being raised by men part that makes barking part of their behaviour. So as for Ghost barking, it actually fits.

    It fits? ah..i see… youre one of the targeted audience.
    Very well. Carry on.

    :hundredpalmfacepalm:

  237. fishbone jones
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    I think the number of people amongst these comments who say they didn’t even catch the anal finger bang speaks to how “distracting” the sex was to Littlefingers AMAZING monologue.

    Count me amongst those who were so taken in by the performance the sex was just background and unimportant. To me it actually underscored the monologue.

    As for speaking inner thoughts and plans to whores? If he feels the need to unburden that to someone and wishes it to be kept unknown. What better way than to say it to two intensely distracted whores who are listening but unlikely to do the math or even remember much beyond whew, I need a bath, and wow, Littlefinger is a buzz kill.

    I felt this episode was spot on in every way.

  238. Mercury
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    Regarding the Littlefinger sex scene. I actually thought it was incredibly revealing of his character in general in a way we hadn’t previously seen. Sure there have been hints that he is still in love with Catelyn, but we don’t really understand the extent of his nature until this scene.

    I think the scene was designed to be provocative yes, but not for no reason. If a man can calmly narrate his life story and goals while nonchalantly narrating a series of intense sex acts we do learn things about him. Namely that he is kind of fucked up and manipulative. Also, while it may seem foolish to be so open, it also can show the kind of absolute disregard he shows towards his whores, not even thinking them capable of putting two and two together and understanding his plan.

    In the end, I think if the scene felt gratuitous and overly explicit, it is because Littlefinger is being written as a character who exists in a mindset that is morally disturbing and unacceptable to us today.

  239. Mercury
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    fishbone jones,

    My thoughts exactly.

  240. persephone88
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Yayayaya: “I hope Tywin gets his shit rocked”.

    Thanks, Yayayaya. I still say Tywin Lannister would not be gutting a deer – he’d have some lowly laborer on hand to do it for him, even in a camp.

    Of course, perhaps he had a sudden yen to go deer hunting while preparing for war. Or needed some food. Or maybe he wanted to make a big symbolic point to Jamie. Yeah.

    That was hitting the viewer over the head with *symbolism* rather than staying true to the character, IMO. And I can disagree with your take on it without calling you stupid, imagine that!

  241. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    fishbone jones,

    I agree with that. It’s material I knew, there was sex going on at the time, but the star of the scene was Littlefinger and his monologue.

    I can understand how some don’t feel that loud sex can and/or should be incidental, but the scene worked fine for me.

  242. Mike Chair
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider: Domesticated wolves would actually bark. … So as for Ghost barking, it actually fits.

    Wow. Nice try. Of course they can bark. Heck, I can whistle “Dixie”, but I don’t because if a guy from Boston walks around whistling “Dixie” he’s getting his ass kicked. Wait. Ghost is a direwolf. Who says direwolves can bark? Okay, who says they can’t? Maybe they only bark at the moment they go north of the wall. Ridiculous? Yes, as well as disconcerting. It’s like a lion that mews. It’s humiliating!

    Look, if a lion mews it’s Mewgate.
    I know a gate when I see one.
    This is House Gatewatch.
    This is Barkgate!

  243. Steve the Pirate
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Oh, more bitching and moaning, I should’ve known.
    Ros is hot as hell, and made the exposition more fun. And Littlefinger WAS a pimp. I think they needed to have more settings outside the throne room, and decided a colorful brothel room was a good chance. I think it is. Gorgeous set design and decoration.
    Tywin was indeed a total stud. Him being not afraid to get his hands bloody was apt, and do you think anyone cares that in the book he mocked some City Watch dude’s dad for being a butcher? Nope. Doesn’t matter. Charles Dance is flawless.
    Loved the Wall scenes. The oath always gives me goosebumps.

  244. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    paulgude:
    fishbone jones,
    I can understand how some don’t feel that loud sex can and/or should be incidental, but the scene worked fine for me.

    They must’ve hated When Harry Met Sally….

  245. Modehead
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Trim the fat. This plot is so complex. The lf scene adds absolutely nothing to the plot and wastes valuable screen time. Between that and the omission of Roberts death (no reason not to show the death of the king… No literary device holding it up,) I thought this episode failed. Nonreaders are going to dislike this episode

  246. cardus
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Modehead:
    Trim the fat. This plot is so complex. The lf scene adds absolutely nothing to the plot and wastes valuable screen time. Between that and the omission of Roberts death (no reason not to show the death of the king… No literary device holding it up,) I thought this episode failed. Nonreaders are going to dislike this episode

    Unfortunately, the only real valid point against the Littlefinger-ing whores scene is ruined by your conclusion. I think nonreaders will eat this episode up.

  247. Brad
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    The sex scene was not worthy of the show. It’s just stupid to have such a long scene, without much merit, while the show cuts certain details from the books.

  248. Tee
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Wikipedia on “bark”:

    Although wolves do bark, they do so only in specific situations. According to Coppinger and Feinstein, dogs bark in long, rhythmic stanzas but adult wolf barks tend to be brief and isolated. Compared with wolves, dogs bark frequently and in many different situations.

    So did Ghost bark in long rhythmic stanzas? :)

  249. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Ghost barked. The plot for the rest of the TV series is ruined. HBO should cancel their casting auditions for season 2. Ghost barked.

    I can understand criticisms but typing in all caps, cussing at and making sarcastic remarks towards the show creators is really childish and makes it hard to take those criticisms seriously (even if they are valid). Some members of the cast and crew do actually read through these threads and spewing off immaturely isn’t contributing in a way that makes them [if they choose to] learn from their mistakes for future seasons. It’s just plain disrespectful. You wouldn’t say word for word to their faces what you typed here, would you? If not, that’s hypocritical since Dave and Dan are expected to stick to Martin’s text. If so, there’s nothing else I can say.

    I didn’t care for the girl-on-girl scene, but I did absolutely love the well-written/well-performed monologue going on with Littlefinger at the same time. If the girls just kept it lower in volume I probably wouldn’t have mind. I found them distracting to the importance of Littlefinger’s dialogue. I loved the bit where he said “Fuck everyone” or “Fuck them all” (something like that) because it really hit the nail on the head regarding his character. He is truly self-serving, loyal only to himself. And it was fun seeing this scene knowing how the episode was going to end.

    I got to admit. Seeing King Joffrey on the Iron Throne with the Kingsguard below him and the Lannister men behind him was badass. I thought to myself “okay, here we go”, not just about what was immediately coming but about the rest of the series in general.

    Once more, I find it funny that we got focusing shots of the hearttree’s face during Jon and Sam’s vows since so many fans complained initially about the face of the hearttree in Winterfell being near invisible.

  250. Steve the Pirate
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    People who think Littlefinger’s scene was pointless were clearly so distracted by the nudity that they weren’t listening to what he was saying, or comprehending that what he was saying to the women doesn’t just apply to them and their clientele interaction. Go rewatch it and close your eyes if you have to.

  251. Maester May
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Holy hell, Smiling Knight, calm the eff down. Wolfs can and do bark just like dogs can howl, numbnuts. Yeah, it bothers me too that Ghost specifically can growl/bark, but I barely noticed. Plus is it really that central to the character? Keep in mind this is a minor role, and a non-human one at that. You have been bitching about the show since casting, on through the trailers, up til now. Just don’t effing watch the offing show then.

    And to everyone pissing and moaning their brains out about the LF scene… stop. You already knew this wasn’t a show to watch with your parents or kids, just like how you wouldn’t give book one to your mom or your 10 year old son.

    I honestly thought it was there to balance out the Renly/Loras scene for all the homophobes out there. And LF realizes (as should you): how closely are the whores listening to him while they’re fingerblasting each other? It’s clever because he’s telling us exactly what he’s up to, but everyone is too distracted (either mesmerized or uncomfortable) to catch it.

    And whoever it is that said it was more graphic than Spatacus is full of sh&t.

  252. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant,

    The problem I have with Ghost barking is it’s just lazy, very lazy. Jon’s direwolf is an albino which never makes a sound except for the odd growl. It’s what sets his wolf apart from the others. How hard is it just to have the barking left out.

    It’s honest criticism. Fans know the difference between dogs and wolves.

  253. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Oh no, Ghost barked. The whole series is obviously ruined forever. How will anyone ever enjoy the show if Ghost barks. First people whine incessantly about there not being enough wolf time in the show. Then we get some wolf time and people whine about the wolf barking. I’m surprised no one thinks he’s the wrong shade of white.

    I swear to God, some people are going absolutely out of their way to find things to be disappointed about. If you want to let yourself get so distracted by minutiae that you miss all the amazing storytelling going on, you deserve to be disappointed.

  254. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Damryn of Dorne: Argilac the Arrogant, The problem I have with Ghost barking is it’s just lazy, very lazy. Jon’s direwolf is an albino which never makes a sound except for the odd growl. It’s what sets his wolf apart from the others. How hard is it just to have the barking left out. It’s honest criticism. Fans know the difference between dogs and wolves.

    I agree. It’s not that I disagreed about Ghost barking, its the way some people chose to vent their frustration about it. Honestly, it didn’t hit me when he did bark. I don’t even remember him barking. I read about the barking here first. So it didn’t bother me at the time, but I do remember something in the book about Ghost being as silent as a …ghost!

    Not a plot-breaker though. This series has been too good to let something like Ghost barking ruin it.

  255. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Modehead: Trim the fat. This plot is so complex. The lf scene adds absolutely nothing to the plot and wastes valuable screen time.

    You read the books? See that scene again from the point of view of a new viewer who’s never read the books. That scene (minus the sex) adds plenty to the story.

    What does seeing the king die add exactly? He died. What more was there to show that we didn’t already see with him and Ned earlier?

  256. Mike Chair
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant: Ghost barked. The plot for the rest of the TV series is ruined.

    Eric Bigpicture: Oh no, Ghost barked. The whole series is obviously ruined forever.

    Yeah, yeah. I agree it’s no big deal. But, it is a gate. I didn’t even notice it at first. I had to go back and watch again. As histrionic as TSK is, and I hate to admit it, but he’s right. They did that on purpose. I bet it was just to screw with us — the only freaks who would notice it or even care. Nonetheless, who should find gates but we, House Gatewatch?

  257. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant,

    If youre talking about me… i would so tell it to their faces, only it would be much worse then what i wrote. If by some chance they read it i wish they take it as personally as possible.
    And then some.

    Simply because it deserves nothing less.

    For the clueless around here… and this really disappoints me in humanity in general… Ghost is supposed to be completely silent direwolf.
    Its his thing. He never whines, growls, never even howls – not even when he hears other wolves do it. You know – GHOST, get it? ahaha… my god…. im actually explaining this to people… im going to be sick…

    Throughout these seven episodes we had a serious lack of direwolves – which are an integral parts of the Stark children storylines – only because of general incompetence of the producers to dutifully prepare for and then bring about the execution of that element.

    He growled when Jon set him on Rast in the show… but i generally overlooked that even if it was retarded too. Because i understand by now that this is a cheap tv show that uses cheap gimmicks like that to get its points across.

    And now, in one scene where we do see Ghost in the machine – he barks.
    Barks like a dog he really is.

    Even more maddening is the fact that someone had to put in that sound into the audio – if they are shooting the sounds separately. Or someone couldnt erase it – if they are recording the sounds on the spot.

    I cannot really say which is the more retarded and insulting option.

  258. Ginny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    paulgude:
    Steven Swanson,
    Remember: A non-consensual knife in the eye is always more acceptable than a friendly finger up the backside.

    But it wasn’t someone stabbing someone else in the eye for 4 minutes and 40 seconds (Yes, I timed it) while someone else randomly confessed their inner thoughts.

    I have been completely on board for everything that’s been done with the show, I think it’s great. Sex doesn’t bother me in the least. But that scene was way too long, gave us no new info, and was just unnecessary when there is so much story to be told.

    I’ve had some things that have bugged me with the adaptation, but nothing like that useless scene. Luckily it’s one scene out of many great ones.

  259. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Argilac the Arrogant, If by some chance they read it i wish they take it as personally as possible.And then some.Simply because it deserves nothing less.

    I’m at a loss for words.

  260. Ginny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:
    Argilac the Arrogant,

    If youre talking about me… i would so tell it to their faces, only it would be much worse then what i wrote. If by some chance they read it i wish they take it as personally as possible.
    And then some.

    Simply because it deserves nothing less.

    For the clueless around here… and this really disappoints me in humanity in general… Ghost is supposed to be completely silent direwolf. Its his thing. he never whines, never even howls – not even when he hears other wolves do it. You know – GHOST, get it? ahaha… my god…. im actually explaining this to people… im going to be sick…

    Throughout these seven episodes we had a serious lack of direwolves – which are an integral parts of the Stark children storylines – only because of general incompetence of the producers to dutifully prepare for and then bring about the execution of that element.

    And now, in one scene where we do see Ghost in the machine – he barks.
    Barks like a dog he really is.

    Even more maddening is the fact that someone had to put in that sound into the audio – if they are shooting the sounds separately. Or someone couldnt erase it – if they are recording the sounds on the spot.

    I cannot really say which is the more retarded and insulting option.

    Ghost has made noise in every scene he’s been in. We actually hear him before we see him. Why is this just now an issue?

  261. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    I wish I could see this bloody episode and give an opinion.

    Damned Time Warner Cable.

  262. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Ginny,

    - Smiling Knight assumes the lotus position and starts the mantra : Your are not real, this is not real, this is juts some weird hell i have fallen into,… im probably dreaming, ill weak up every minute now, every minute now…-

    -zennnnnnn-

    Because, Ginny – he barks – like a dog.

  263. Sean
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    My problem with the Littlefinger bit wasn’t the sex I just though that once he moved beyond the subtext bit of him being the whore and Ned the jon, and hit the villiny monologing with no subtext. It just felt a little odd that he would bear his soul like that to two whores who were basicly auditioning. Other then that I loved the first half of it.

    The rest of the episode was rocken.

  264. Sareeta
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    The TV series is making me much more critical of Ned and his decisions than when I read the book. So many opportunities for him to stop the Lannisters and prevent his own demise, yet he keeps digging himself deeper because its the noble thing to do. Imagine if he and Renly had teamed up?! Renly would make a better king than Robert and Joffrey *sniffle*

    I loved all the talk about Stannis, one my favorite characters in the series. I cannot WAIT to see him in season 2.

    Khal Drogo speech was excellent, OMG. This was Jason Momoa’s best episode for sure and definitely one of the best speeches in the series.

    Theon… Hm, I was definitely more trusting of him in the books than in the TV series. He’s such an ass from the get-go that I don’t think it’ll be much surprise what happens down the road. But, wow, Osha!!! I love her in the books and love her in the series.

    Thought the Roz/other whore scene went too far. But I did like Littlefinger’s monologue. That was his best scene in the series so far. Before I felt he was playing the character a little wooden. Boy, when his true colors shine through, he’s a creepy MF.

    Night’s Watch part was excellent. Love that Sam wished the be a wizard :P Love the mention about grooming Jon for Lord Commander :)

    What else? Oh, Tywin! Tywin is such a freak. I actually found the skinning of the stag (oh, foreshadowning much???) more repulsive than the other killings we’ve seen so far.

    Best episode so far. What a cliffhanger, too!

    Thanks, HBOGO!!! Now please release the rest of the episodes early!!!

  265. Ginny
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:
    Ginny,

    - Smiling Knight assumes the lotus position and starts the mantra : Your are not real, this is not real, this is juts some weird hell i have fallen into,… im probably dreaming, ill weak up every minute now, every minute now…-

    -zennnnnnn-

    Because, Ginny – he barks – like a dog.

    Wolves bark, quite similarly to dogs. And dogs can howl similarly to wolves. Sadly I am not an expert and when I listened to a sampling of each, I could not tell the difference. However I’m sure there are better canine experts that could.

  266. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Ginny: But that scene was way too long, gave us no new info, and was just unnecessary when there is so much story to be told.

    This is the main point I disagree with. That scene didn’t tell me a whole lot since I’m pretty familiar with Littlefinger’s character and motives form reading the books. If I’m a new viewer, however, that really explained a whole hell of a lot about why he acts the way he does. I suppose there might have been a number of different ways of getting that point across, but I thought it was an interesting choice for juxtaposition between speech and the visuals on screen.

  267. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    I’m reminded of that scene from Family Guy where Peter is making a movie. He has cast Joe, his wheelchair-bound neighbor, as a doctor in the movie and bitches at him that his character isn’t wheelchair-bound so he needs to get out of the chair and actually walk.

    Joe’s insistance that its not possible falls on deaf ears. Peter continues to bitch.

  268. GaR
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Maester May: …you wouldn’t give book one to your mom…

    What? Why not? My mum’s a big fan of the books and the show.

  269. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    A few general questions:
    1) Why do you torture yourself with this show? Surely there are better and less fury-inducing ways to spend your time? I know you love the books as much as any other reader (if not more so) so I just don’t see the point in force-feeding yourself something that really just makes your blood boil.
    2) About what percentage of your average day is spent in a state of apoplectic rage?

  270. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    (Ed sits upright in a cold sweat!!!)

    GAH!!! I fell asleep for a second and I dreamt I was Smiling Knight!!! Whew…

    I just want to state for the record, I’m glad I don’t live my life like some of the posters here. God your life must be miserable.

    It would be NO fun to go through life complaining so much. It’s like they’re trying to find every little thing wrong with this series as they can, instead of appreciating the wonderful show that we have.

    AAaaaahhhh, what a relief! :)

  271. Mike Chair
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    If you’ve been following these posts you know The Smiling Knight (TSK) is all kinds of crazy. However, he is meticulous. If all he finds wrong with this episode is that Tywin is feeling the butcher and Ghost barks a couple of times, that means it’s a really good episode.

    Now, come on, northern Inuit dogs bark, wolves bark, and direwolves don’t. Four books over 3,000 some odd pages, not one bark. TSK may be over the top but you guys are blind on the bottom. It’s a small (maybe teeny) gate. But it’s a gate. The episode was awesome but I refuse to ignore obvious (per se) and, quite possibly, intentional inaccuracies. That’s all I’ve got to say about the barking for now. I’m sure the issue will resurface on the recap post Sunday. Then everyone can weigh in on whether it qualifies as a gate or not.

  272. uberstellar
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Wow, seems we have a whore-gate on our hands. Personally, I feel I was prepped for that scene by watching (and loving) Deadwood. Al Swearengen was a ruthless, brilliant, manipulative pimp who had an unhealthy relationship with his girls. He knew he couldn’t vent his innermost fears and thoughts to anyone else because it would undermine his authority, and he obviously didn’t buy into a sense of false sexual intimacy because he was an expert on how to fake it. But he had a million insecurities that led to his current personality, and he wanted to share that with someone, so he felt most comfortable with girls he owned. It’s actually kind of ironic, these hardened souls scoffing at how easy it is to con the average john by way of faking arousal; and yet these pimps convince themselves the whores are the safest audience for their innermost thoughts. I know Swearengen’s best monologues occurred when he was receiving, er, oral pleasure and I would imagine GoT- who’s already demonstrated their reluctance to stage too many straight exposition scenes without background titillation to keep interest- was inspired to attempt the same with Littlefinger.

  273. MTTS
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Super disappointing to hear about the unneeded addition for the show in the form of and over done sex scene.

    To be honest I enjoyed the books and expected a certain degree of it. But I would rather them stick more to story rather than feeling the need to either relive the sexual scenes mostly b/c I’m not really that interested in those parts. Sure it can be argued some of it’s needed as it IS certain characters story. However I don’t need to see all of it each episode.

    Label me a prude or what have you. I just would rather see more important and interesting things than two chicks go at it for the sake of either shock value or some pubescent, “this is soooo hottt…OMG” concept. Sorry but when it comes to that, unless it’s advancing the plot in some redeemable way, and I’ll argue hearing littelfinger talk about his plans doesn’t really sound like one, I’d rather they’d left it out.

    Oh well, here’s to hoping that they learn from this and season 2 includes less unnecessary scenes. I know their gonna love playing up the shae-tyrion stuff, which I’m almost equally shuddering.

    I will say it’s kinda awkward to sit through with your wife, not to mention it REALLY bothers her.

  274. paulgude
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Ginny,

    I don’t think that’s a bad attitude to have. We’ll all have something we don’t like eventually, I’m sure. Letting something you dislike overshadow the entire experience would be a shame.

  275. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    MTTS: I will say it’s kinda awkward to sit through with your wife, not to mention it REALLY bothers her.

    I’ll admit, that makes me sad to hear that watching a sex scene with your own wife is awkward.

  276. sffdd
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    DaveB,

    I don’t know what rumor you’re referring to but Martin did warn you never to trust him

  277. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 23, 2011 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: This is the main point I disagree with.That scene didn’t tell me a whole lot since I’m pretty familiar with Littlefinger’s character and motives form reading the books.If I’m a new viewer, however, that really explained a whole hell of a lot about why he acts the way he does.I suppose there might have been a number of different ways of getting that point across, but I thought it was an interesting choice for juxtaposition between speech and the visuals on screen.

    But of course, one of the most mysterious and unpredictable characters of the whole story just goes around spewing his whole reason de etre to some random whore he sees for the first time. Outloud. In details. Giving it all up. In this point in time. Just because.
    In a spiders city.

    Oh what a player! A Playa!
    It makes perfect sense.

    Just like Tywin Lannister, some nervous guy who has nothing better to do then to butcher and skin animals on his own – in order to make himself seem scary or even more ridiculous – bad ass – and failing to convince even Larry “commander in chief” – makes sense.

    You have Charles Dance, you have the book… and then you fail to put those two together?
    There are no words to describe the fail.

    To the rest of you in several comments above… havent we sorted out those annoyingly pathetic “why dont you stop watching – go away – stop bothering my emotional investment in visuals of the show” arguments already?

    Ginny,
    I suggest you read my full post once again, read the books once again, and get some real info on behavior and sounds of wolves – in nature and in the entertainment media of all kinds of all time. Then come back here show me one wolf that goes “woof, woof” and try again.

    And try not to disregard or skip over the first half of first sentence of my answer to you above either.

  278. MTTS
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard,

    LOL,

    How so? I realize I might be old fashioned in this sense but I don’t frequently pop-in porn and say “hey honey, check this out!!”

    Might be cool with you and yours, and good on you. However I just don’t make a habit of watching other people hump in general. Not that I care if people are out there humping, just not my prerogative to view them as they do it.

    Which I think this is something people are missing. Sex is natural, sure. Do you need to make a bag of popcorn walk over to your neighbors house and watch them go at it? Nah, not really. If you want to, more power to you.

  279. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:
    To the rest of you in several comments above… havent we sorted out those annoyingly pathetic “why dont you stop watching – go away – stop bothering my emotional investment in visuals of the show” arguments already?

    The most “annoyingly pathetic” thing on these forums is you. You seem to think that hating everything makes you sound intelligent. It only demonstrates how naive and ignorant you are about how television works. It’s pathetic. You act like a child, insulting and berating people for liking a show you obviously derive no joy from — yet still watch week after week. It’s pathetic. Your writing style would indicate that you are functioning at the intellectual level of an autistic 14-year-old boy. No offense to autistic 14-year-old boys (including yourself, if I just hit the nail on the head. It would explain a lot.)

    I think some small percentage of the people who vigorously defend the show may be emotionally invested in defending it. You are without question emotionally invested in attacking it. That’s even more pathetic. Oh, and you should type in all caps more often, it’s really effective. That way people can just scroll past your verbal diarrhea with only a brief glance.

  280. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    MTTS,
    Alright, fair enough. It’s not my business to pass judgment on your or your wife’s tastes or sensibilities, BUT:

    Suddenly a sex scene in a TV show is no different than popping over to your neighbors’ house and watching them have live sex in front of you?
    This is close to one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on this site, and that’s saying something.

  281. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture VS The Smiling Knight

    Incoming flame war in T-minus 5…4…3…2…

  282. NousWanderer
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    1a.) For all of you noting that these lordly, powerful men frequently seem to expose themselves while in the presence of “lowly” whores, have you stopped to consider that it might be an intentional theme? Maybe there are cultural reasons why these men, with their stories, only feel comfortable revealing their darker motivations to a precisely chosen underclass of women with whom they feel the most comfortable? And perhaps there’s a subtext there, when the repressed Theon and the scheming Littlefinger and the heartbroken Tyrion let the words flow amongst sex workers in ways they cannot with others? Maybe this isn’t simply a reliable trope for exposition but it’s also a way to illustrate a common thread in the lives of these men and women? Maybe it’s a way of showing how, in the end, the pariahs and whores see things most clearly and live with the fewest illusions about who their supposed ‘superiors’ really are? ALL of that comes across to me. Maybe not to others. There’s a reason why Ros appreciates Tyrion so much. The money, sure, but also the fact that he offers a warmth and kindness in his drunken appetites. And don’t we see the sadness of that, then, when the Hound berates him for his conquests – conquests he has to pay for because surely no other woman would touch him? Or Theon, someone effectively a political prisoner who can’t – doesn’t have the option – of making a woman like Ros his wife (or any woman for that matter). Or Littlefinger, whose whole life has orbited one central love with a growing cunning intended solely to advance his station and secure, once and for all, a perfect defense against ever being so humiliated as he once was by the hand of Brandon Stark?

    This is completely disregarding the fact that the whoregate scene was marvelously acted and beautifully decorated. Also: sex is visually interesting and can convey a wide range of emotions. Note how the women were compelled to authenticity as the silver TONGUED Littlefinger continued his story, playing the puppeteer’s role with mere words?

    There’s always more there. These writers take this show too seriously to simply have an anal play quota that they keep careful tabs on. The scene worked, was dramatically economic and characterized so many dimensions of Littlefinger simultaneously. It was a huge success.

    1b.) Yes, most of the violence depicted was featured in the books. This doesn’t mean that it has to be depicted as it was described in the books. Put otherwise: violence can be implied rather than shown. Now, I personally prefer the approach HBO is taking. I don’t think the show needs to shy away, and violence can often be terribly resonant and breathtaking – as it is in this show. Lady’s death? It provoked a response. Gregor’s horse? The same. Jory, Ned? The same. Ser Hugh of the Vale? Why do you think Sansa and Arya were framed just behind his gurgling last breaths? These shots *serve a function.* At the same time, some people feel that these functions don’t justify the explicitness with which the violence is depicted. But they’re often brushed aside. Why are we so willing to remain unchallenged where nudity is concerned? Because we’re speaking from cultural assumptions about what is and isn’t acceptable. The violence makes the show better, rawer, truer and more honest.

    Comparably, nudity and sex are often used (thus far) to represent vulnerability (Dany, S1 + S2), the forbidden (Cersei, S1), lechery and self-abasement (Tyrion, S1), the borderland between vulnerability and self-preservation (Theon + Ros), complete exposure and manipulativeness (whoregate), etc. These are functional scenes and while I’m not arguing that they’re all equally successful, it’s a silly mentality that suggests that these moments on the threshold exist simply to titillate. Is that part of it? Of course. Just as violence is meant to thrill and excite. This is a visual medium, we’re visual creatures. But these are also powerful, important scenes for far more complex, nuanced reasons than some of you allow.

    Similarly and inversely, sometimes sex IS used in a purely suggestive fashion. Take, for example, Jaime being forced to listen in on Robert’s whoring. The function is multifaceted. Not only does it characterize Jaime and Jory (through their reactions) and Robert (through his behavior), but it also offers a slight moment of comic relief mixed with pathos and discomfort. It’s useful. There’s a solid defense to be made for almost all of these scenes, and I’m honestly shocked at how revolted and reductivist some of you seem to be.

    2.) Barkgate. First of all, I’ll repeat myself: film is an audiovisual medium. Animals move their mouths. Sounds come out. Truly mute wolves are exceedingly rare. In the context of a novel, Ghost’s “trait” can be directly characterized. That’s not so easy here. Given that it’s a matter of careful balance and economics as to when Ghost can be on screen in the first place, I find it remarkable that there’s such an uproar about the fact that he made noise. Allow me to put it simply: it would create a disconnect in the minds of audience members if, in those few scenes where Ghost is present, he’s completely silent. Otherwise you’d need to have a character comment on this small point of description in order to have it make sense, and that’s too much work for too little reward. It would be stilted. Awkward. Far more awkward than any exposition heavy scene thus far. It’s. just. not. a. big. deal. Perhaps we’ll get a “he doesn’t make much noise, does he?” moment in the future and you can all feel vindicated.

    3.) I’m going to make myself clear: the way you act in these discussions is totally unacceptable, The Smiling Knight.

    4.) RE: Sansa’s betrayal — there’s absolutely nothing which suggests that we won’t get that payoff later on, and it would actually undercut the dramatic twist of Ned’s failure in the throne room had the audience been given reason to anticipate Cersei’s counterplot. This is yet another example of fearing for the worst before the show has been allowed to finish. The same goes for the Tower of Joy or the supposed flashbacks/imaginings of the death of Ned’s brother and father. Ned is going to be in a cell, now, with some time to think and grieve and regret. Perhaps we’ll see something interesting and surprising. And even if we don’t see the Tower of Joy in this season, there’s absolutely nothing which says that we won’t see it in a future season. Does it have to come from Ned? Not necessarily. Maybe Sean Bean will be a guest star for one episode and the sequence will somehow be associated with Jon Snow (if the R+L=J theories are true). We simply can’t say. It’s just so, so problematic to expect the show to adhere so closely to the very, very specific chronology of the chapters. By all accounts – by any account – this show is so incredibly faithful to the source material as to be unbelievable. I cannot think of another television adaptation which is so meticulously adherent to its progenitor. The fact that people are now screaming – in capital letters – about the fact that Jon’s albino direwolf barked while fetching a severed arm proves that we have entered a realm of absurdity so complete, so total that we should reevaluate our priorities both individually and as a fanbase. My fucking god.

    5.) Charles Dance was nothing if not incredible. Everything I wanted from Tywin came across in that scene, and the visual impact of ‘seeing him get his hands dirty’ worked perfectly. You also need to keep in mind that while the average viewer might understand the general association between the sigils and the houses, they don’t necessarily think of them whenever they confront the houses (e.g. a giant bronze stag gleaming in a bright, neon sky doesn’t mentally flash like an epilepsy warning whenever they confront the word “Baratheon”). The skinning is no more or less subtle than the direwolf discovery scene, and I thought it was pulled off far more evocatively. The sounds of that butchery are still with me. Coupled with Dance’s steely, self-certain performance, I was rocked.

    6.) One last topic, since I haven’t mentioned it here yet: Renly + Loras. There are definitely homophobic undercurrents running through some of the posts I’ve read in the last couple weeks.

    Yes, it’s presented with subtlety in the books, but this is because we have almost no scenes between Loras and Renly in the first novel. Neither are POV characters. Scenes are added to the series to more roundly characterize important figures who aren’t given attention in the books but who are otherwise essential to the plot. This is done so that later on, when these characters ‘suddenly become important’, we don’t have to sit through miles of exposition in which we’re ‘caught up’ with who they really are. I thought the scene was fantastic. I also question why it’s necessary or even valuable to be anything but forthright about these characters in their private moments. George R.R. Martin has confirmed that Renly and Loras were written as gay lovers. Why should the show have to dance around the issue when it has the opportunity to explore richer, more interesting scenes between these two figures?

    Please, people. Save yourselves.

    Also, I’m over at http://www.twitter.com/RickonStark

    I’m sure he’ll have some choice words to say about his increasingly successful vanishing act soon enough.

  283. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Mike Chair:
    If you’ve been following these posts you know The Smiling Knight (TSK) is all kinds of crazy.However, he is meticulous.If all he finds wrong with this episode is that Tywin is feeling the butcher and Ghost barks a couple of times, that means it’s a really good episode.

    Thing is, if they avoided making these few really bad choices, the episode would have been brilliant. So seeing such crass mistakes (Tywins introduction being the most tolerable one) has an extraordinarily negative effect.

    Now, come on, northern Inuit dogs bark, wolves bark, and direwolves don’t.

    Wolves. Do. Not. Bark. – like the dogs.
    They do not make “woof! woof!” sounds.

    JonSnow’sBastard,
    I dont think so. Frankly, i cant stoop to that level and its highly doubtful that can understand anything else.
    I think my posts and “its” speak for themselves sufficiently in this regard.

  284. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Ginny,

    I understand the commotion that this had caused. Many are disputing the fact that Ghost barked and thus invoking the natural inclination of wolves to bark on occasion. However, what those advocates of natural wild ability are not realizing is… the CHARACTER of Ghost, is a silent one.

    This is the primary concern of those literary adherents, the lack of adherence, the sloth of the production, in forgoing an obvious and fan-appreciated aspect of a “minor” character. I, for one, am concerned with the pace and parallel of this show to the source material.

    I will rest my hopes on a next season, when monetary concerns can be put aside, and some CGI can be put to good use, furthering the legitimacy of G.R.R.M.’s text.

  285. Ed
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    Hey Smiling Knight, maybe you mentioned it before (considering you’ve been complaining for 7 episodes now), but I guess I missed it, so I’ll just ask: If you hate so many things about this (epic fail, I think you called it), why do you watch it?

    Seriously, why would you? Wouldn’t you be convinced after 2 or 3 episodes that they have no idea what they’re doing?

    And IF you ARE right, and it IS so bad, the fact that you keep watching it says more about you than it does the show! LoL

    Just be gone already.

  286. Ginny
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    Damryn of Dorne:
    Ginny,

    I understand the commotion that this had caused. Many are disputing the fact that Ghost barked and thus invoking the natural inclination of wolves to bark on occasion. However, what those advocates of natural wild ability are not realizing is… the CHARACTER of Ghost, is a silent one.

    This is the primary concern of those literary adherents, the lack of adherence, the sloth of the production, in forgoing an obvious and fan-appreciated aspect of a “minor” character. I, for one, am concerned with the pace and parallel of this show to the source material.

    I will rest my hopes on a next season, when monetary concerns can be put aside, and some CGI can be put to good use, furthering the legitimacy of G.R.R.M.’s text.

    I haven’t said anything disputing that Ghost does not make noise in the books.
    I’m saying he has been making noise in previous episodes, and now suddenly everyone is just noticing? I came to terms with this change in the character in episode #1. :)

  287. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant,

    I can understand criticisms but typing in all caps, cussing at and making sarcastic remarks towards the show creators is really childish and makes it hard to take those criticisms seriously (even if they are valid). Some members of the cast and crew do actually read through these threads and spewing off immaturely isn’t contributing in a way that makes them [if they choose to] learn from their mistakes for future seasons. It’s just plain disrespectful. You wouldn’t say word for word to their faces what you typed here, would you? If not, that’s hypocritical since Dave and Dan are expected to stick to Martin’s text. If so, there’s nothing else I can say.

    Actually I’ll bet anyone affiliated with the show would just call their friends over and say “Hey, check out what that Smiling Knight character is on about this week!” My guess is he brings much joy to their world, albeit unintentionally.

  288. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant: I agree. It’s not that I disagreed about Ghost barking, its the way some people chose to vent their frustration about it. Honestly, it didn’t hit me when he did bark. I don’t even remember him barking. I read about the barking here first. So it didn’t bother me at the time, but I do remember something in the book about Ghost being as silent as a …ghost!

    Not a plot-breaker though. This series has been too good to let something like Ghost barking ruin it.

    Oh, it bothered me at the time. I was like “Oh no, Ghost barked, now how much bullshit am I gonna have to wade through on the post-ep threads?!?”

  289. paulgude
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard,

    If only HBO would have some sort of warning at the beginning of content in the show people might find objectionable. Oh, wait…

  290. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: I’ll admit, that makes me sad to hear that watching a sex scene with your own wife is awkward.

    No kidding. My wife and I call that foreplay. ;)

  291. paulgude
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Well said on all points. More of this, please.

  292. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Ginny,

    Alright, I understand that your acceptance of the differences began in episode one. That being said, I am bewildered by the fact you don’t comprehend people taking issue with the Ghost’s character being so different (in a literary adherent’s eyes) than we thought we knew.

    What I think you fail to realize, is that a Wolf barking, is so offensive to the above adherents, a true fan could only rise to the occasion and call foul.

    Wolves. Do. Not. Bark.

  293. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Damn, you should get a round of drinks on the house for that post. Very well said.

  294. Trollsbane
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    I didn’t notice Ghost barking the first time I saw it. On the re-watch, it definately made me scowl. I’m not feeling any hatred, but it does kinda blow that it happened.

    Guess the thought of Ghost finding his voice won’t be the thing that brings the wall down.

  295. Enteril
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Thing is, if they avoided making these few really bad choices, the episode would have been brilliant. So seeing such crass mistakes (Tywins introduction being the most tolerable one) has an extraordinarily negative effect.

    Wolves. Do. Not. Bark.– like the dogs.
    They do not make “woof! woof!” sounds.

    JonSnow’sBastard,
    I dont think so.Frankly, i cant stoop to that level and its highly doubtful that can understand anything else.
    I think my posts and “its” speak for themselves sufficiently in this regard.

    Wolves bark fine, and yes, just like dogs. Same mechanism, same sound when you compare roughly similar sized wolves and dogs. Just because it doesn’t fit your worldview of wolves, doesn’t mean it’s right. Wolves bark, just like dogs. Almost every noise that dogs can make, so can wolves. Do you know why? I’ll give you a hint: because they’re the same species.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bark_(utterance)

  296. Alcibiades
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    Yeah man, I agree with Eric, why the fuck are you even here dude?!

    Seriously it’s time to get a new alias and start again, this time less obvious :p

  297. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer:
    1a.) For all of you noting that these lordly, powerful men frequently seem to expose themselves while in the presence of “lowly” whores, have you stopped to consider that it might be an intentional theme?
    Youre trying to hard.

    This is completely disregarding the fact that the whoregate scene was marvelously acted and beautifully decorated. Also: sex is visually interesting and can convey a wide range of emotions. Note how the women were compelled to authenticity as the silver TONGUED Littlefinger continued his story, playing the puppeteer’s role with mere words?

    Ah yes… the visuals. So important.
    btw, they were not compelled to authenticity – quite the opposite but i guess a guy can miss that if its hard to listen to what the characters are saying while watching all those beautiful decorations.

    The scene worked, was dramatically economic and characterized so many dimensions of Littlefinger simultaneously. It was a huge success.

    I only saw one Littlefinger dimension there. His biggest secret, thrown out to some random whores for no internally consistent reason at all.
    In complete opposition to the logic of the whole setting, fueled by the cheapest of purposes – to reveal Littlefinger deepest and most secret motivations clearly to supposedly idiotic viewer. To spell it all out way ahead of time and plot or story requirements – completely onlitering any kind of suspense that reveal might have carried.

    2.) Barkgate. First of all, I’ll repeat myself: film is an audiovisual medium. Animals move their mouths. Sounds come out.

    In-fucking-credible…

    Truly mute wolves are exceedingly rare.

    Wait… you mean to say…. that they should have hired a real mute Wolf to… what?

    In the context of a novel, Ghost’s “trait” can be directly characterized. That’s not so easy here.

    Do you have any idea how the sound is recorded in movies? Any at all?

    Given that it’s a matter of careful balance and economics as to when Ghost can be on screen in the first place, I find it remarkable that there’s such an uproar about the fact that he made noise.

    Im finding this bit truly remarkable too.

    Allow me to put it simply: it would create a disconnect in the minds of audience members if, in those few scenes where Ghost is present, he’s completely silent. Otherwise you’d need to have a character comment on this small point of description in order to have it make sense, and that’s too much work for too little reward. It would be stilted. Awkward.

    :lol: and the Oscar goes to Nous Wanderer for the biggest bullshit of the episode 7 comment thread.

    :applause.

    Far more awkward than any exposition heavy scene thus far.

    Scrivens!

    It’s. just. not. a. big. deal.

    Corse not govner. Its only a dog. One of the Stark kids dogs.

    And even if we don’t see the Tower of Joy in this season, there’s absolutely nothing which says that we won’t see it in a future season. Does it have to come from Ned? Not necessarily.

    Of course not. After all, there are so many other witnesses of those events in front of the tower and inside of it.

    The fact that people are now screaming – in capital letters – about the fact that Jon’s albino direwolf barked while fetching a severed arm proves that we have entered a realm of absurdity so complete, so total that we should reevaluate our priorities both individually and as a fanbase. My fucking god.

    I was not screaming. I was making a point with the same level of sophistication and subtlety those scenes were made with.

    3.) I’m going to make myself clear: the way you act in these discussions is totally unacceptable, The Smiling Knight.

    Oh, bugger yourself with a hot poker and then jump on it. :)

  298. The DarkStar
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    I heart The Smiling Knight. I will “control F” through long posts just to see what he writes and what angry people write at him. I know things got pretty heated in a previous thread about TSK getting banned, and my 2 cents is this blog would be worse off without him. APOIAF has chase, we have TSK.

  299. Ginny
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    Having met GRRM (one of the nicest guys you’ll ever meet) and some of the HBO crew, I will tell you that if GRRM had told D&D (who I have not met but would love to) that a certain aspect of the story or characters was absolutely vital, they would have found a way to keep true to the source material.

    This is a TV show, based on a book. It is not a retelling of the book. :)

    If you don’t have faith in GRRM, then just stop watching. It’s simple.

  300. Argilac the Arrogant
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Wolves. Do. Not. Bark. – like the dogs.They do not make “woof! woof!” sounds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaJEoz4tmm4

  301. dtb
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:12 am | Permalink

    I probably overreacted to the brothel scene. I just think that sometimes film and tv shows can lean to heavily on what is sensationalist-which often makes them very popular, but not really great art. This is the danger of a high budget adaption.

    The story is about “the human heart in conflict with itself” as GRRM has said. I just don’t want to see it lose that to whatever can titillate its viewers the most.

  302. theendofsmiles
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    the smiling knight licks balls. hes a ball licker.

  303. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant,
    Thats not a “woof, woof” man.

    And is the significance of a Wolf being played by a dog totally lost on you?
    Not an ordinary wolf but absolutely silent direwolf that doesnt even howl, called Ghost – at that?

    And that the viewers are already suppressing disbelief on that account and that nobody really needs it to cheerfully go woof, woof?

  304. MCA
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    So, does anyone think the character GRRM sad would die this week that doesn’t die until later in the books is really Benjen? His horse rode in and they found a hand. Maybe he’ll be the rising dead instead of the two rank-and-file Night’s Watchmen like in the books.

    Also, GRRM writes next week’s episode. Huzzah!

    And… just by looking up at that mess of a comments section above this post, I doubt anyone here actually cares about what happened in this episode. They’re too busy throwing poo at each other. Glad I waited until now to watch it and then come over on to this board. Hilarious.

  305. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Just takes some people a while to learn that relentlessly arguing points on forums doesn’t really get you anywhere. Some people may never learn :P

    The power of charisma is completely useless here, so I doubt that anyone would ever change their opinion about anything – hence there’s no real reason to get in a ramped out argument against anyone unless you’re trying to prove (to yourself or to them) that you are somehow better than they are. Most people refuse to admit even to themselves that they’ve lost an argument and always have to have the last word.

    I’m sure there’s something more useful you could do with your time.
    And I’m also pretty sure it was a waste of time typing this out.

    on topic:
    I was okay with the littlefinger brothel scene, I did not remotely care about the two girls fornicating with each other because it was just not as interesting as Aiden Gillen’s acting.
    I do think these sexpositions are quite strange, I’ve never seen their like on TV before, but I can’t say that they make for good television.

    Some of the new scenes have been great, but a lot of the (particularly long ones) could have been improved by being shorter and to the point. It seems like they’ve gone and chopped down George’s writing (in some cases tragically editing out the best lines) – but they haven’t really been as tidy with their own writing.

  306. From Chaos
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Great post, could not have said it any better.

  307. obsidian
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider,

    This is an honest question. Have you known any domesticated wolves ? I’m interested because I’ve known one domesticated wolf and a second friend had previously owned another. both had been with their owners for a number of years. Neither wolf barked. Snarl, vocalise in other ways , yes..but not bark. I’ve known a number of wolf crosses and they barked, alright.Since I only know directly of the 2 wolves, I wondered if you have known more…

    I’m not going to get wildly upset over it ,or let it ruin the show for me.

    I’m just going to tell myself, who knows what direwolves do in Westeros , I guess.

  308. Sara
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    Maybe I’m in the minority but Littlefinger can “direct” me any day. ;D

  309. Kana
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Very well written, and I agree with most of it, although that Littlefinger sex scene monologue thing was still… awkward. Even though it does foreshadow both Littlefinger’s behavior, and also Shae / Tyrion later on.

    I have been pretty amused by the sudden need to defend Renly’s character. He’s hardly a fan favorite by any means, and I certainly don’t remember many fans getting in a tizzy over the importance of his perfect casting. Suddenly he’s portrayed as slightly too gay and people are jumping from their seats to defend poor Renly.

    Personally I enjoyed their scene. The books basically rely on PoV to inform us that Renly, despite his large army, is a lightweight. Now unless we want Catelyn to turn to the camera in season 2 and say ‘As you know Rodrik, actually Renly’s not really very well prepared for this kind of thing!’

    Seems like a lot of people start kneejerk complaining about any possible even perceived change to their beloved story, without realizing that it’s a totally different medium. There’s many things in the book which simply would not work well in television. Give me quality over blind loyalty to the source material, please.

  310. Kana
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    I only have one concern:

    How does Ghost barking hurt the story?

    It makes no fucking difference.

    In the books we have plenty of scenes of them growling, and howling, but good lord, one bark and the internet’s all aflame? Good lord above people, are you TRYING to satirize yourselves?

  311. HorRIFTic
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:29 am | Permalink

    Wolves don’t bark?

    Hmmm, might wanna tell these wolves:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX2KBfrDeec

    Also, have a word with these wolves as well:

    http://vimeo.com/53969

    Smiling Knight, if you are going to complain about something asinine, at least have a clue about what you are speaking about, eh?

  312. Sara
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer: 1a.) For all of you noting that these lordly, powerful men frequently seem to expose themselves while in the presence of “lowly” whores, have you stopped to consider that it might be an intentional theme? Maybe there are cultural reasons why these men, with their stories, only feel comfortable revealing their darker motivations to a precisely chosen underclass of women with whom they feel the most comfortable? And perhaps there’s a subtext there, when the repressed Theon and the scheming Littlefinger and the heartbroken Tyrion let the words flow amongst sex workers in ways they cannot with others? Maybe this isn’t simply a reliable trope for exposition but it’s also a way to illustrate a common thread in the lives of these men and women? Maybe it’s a way of showing how, in the end, the pariahs and whores see things most clearly and live with the fewest illusions about who their supposed ‘superiors’ really are? ALL of that comes across to me. Maybe not to others. There’s a reason why Ros appreciates Tyrion so much. The money, sure, but also the fact that he offers a warmth and kindness in his drunken appetites. And don’t we see the sadness of that, then, when the Hound berates him for his conquests – conquests he has to pay for because surely no other woman would touch him? Or Theon, someone effectively a political prisoner who can’t – doesn’t have the option – of making a woman like Ros his wife (or any woman for that matter). Or Littlefinger, whose whole life has orbited one central love with a growing cunning intended solely to advance his station and secure, once and for all, a perfect defense against ever being so humiliated as he once was by the hand of Brandon Stark?

    This is completely disregarding the fact that the whoregate scene was marvelously acted and beautifully decorated. Also: sex is visually interesting and can convey a wide range of emotions. Note how the women were compelled to authenticity as the silver TONGUED Littlefinger continued his story, playing the puppeteer’s role with mere words?

    There’s always more there. These writers take this show too seriously to simply have an anal play quota that they keep careful tabs on. The scene worked, was dramatically economic and characterized so many dimensions of Littlefinger simultaneously. It was a huge success.

    1b.) Yes, most of the violence depicted was featured in the books. This doesn’t mean that it has to be depicted as it was described in the books. Put otherwise: violence can be implied rather than shown. Now, I personally prefer the approach HBO is taking. I don’t think the show needs to shy away, and violence can often be terribly resonant and breathtaking – as it is in this show. Lady’s death? It provoked a response. Gregor’s horse? The same. Jory, Ned? The same. Ser Hugh of the Vale? Why do you think Sansa and Arya were framed just behind his gurgling last breaths? These shots *serve a function.* At the same time, some people feel that these functions don’t justify the explicitness with which the violence is depicted. But they’re often brushed aside. Why are we so willing to remain unchallenged where nudity is concerned? Because we’re speaking from cultural assumptions about what is and isn’t acceptable. The violence makes the show better, rawer, truer and more honest.

    Comparably, nudity and sex are often used (thus far) to represent vulnerability (Dany, S1 + S2), the forbidden (Cersei, S1), lechery and self-abasement (Tyrion, S1), the borderland between vulnerability and self-preservation (Theon + Ros), complete exposure and manipulativeness (whoregate), etc. These are functional scenes and while I’m not arguing that they’re all equally successful, it’s a silly mentality that suggests that these moments on the threshold exist simply to titillate. Is that part of it? Of course. Just as violence is meant to thrill and excite. This is a visual medium, we’re visual creatures. But these are also powerful, important scenes for far more complex, nuanced reasons than some of you allow.

    Similarly and inversely, sometimes sex IS used in a purely suggestive fashion. Take, for example, Jaime being forced to listen in on Robert’s whoring. The function is multifaceted. Not only does it characterize Jaime and Jory (through their reactions) and Robert (through his behavior), but it also offers a slight moment of comic relief mixed with pathos and discomfort. It’s useful. There’s a solid defense to be made for almost all of these scenes, and I’m honestly shocked at how revolted and reductivist some of you seem to be.

    2.) Barkgate. First of all, I’ll repeat myself: film is an audiovisual medium. Animals move their mouths. Sounds come out. Truly mute wolves are exceedingly rare. In the context of a novel, Ghost’s “trait” can be directly characterized. That’s not so easy here. Given that it’s a matter of careful balance and economics as to when Ghost can be on screen in the first place, I find it remarkable that there’s such an uproar about the fact that he made noise. Allow me to put it simply: it would create a disconnect in the minds of audience members if, in those few scenes where Ghost is present, he’s completely silent. Otherwise you’d need to have a character comment on this small point of description in order to have it make sense, and that’s too much work for too little reward. It would be stilted. Awkward. Far more awkward than any exposition heavy scene thus far. It’s. just. not. a. big. deal. Perhaps we’ll get a “he doesn’t make much noise, does he?” moment in the future and you can all feel vindicated.

    3.) I’m going to make myself clear: the way you act in these discussions is totally unacceptable, The Smiling Knight.

    4.) RE: Sansa’s betrayal — there’s absolutely nothing which suggests that we won’t get that payoff later on, and it would actually undercut the dramatic twist of Ned’s failure in the throne room had the audience been given reason to anticipate Cersei’s counterplot. This is yet another example of fearing for the worst before the show has been allowed to finish. The same goes for the Tower of Joy or the supposed flashbacks/imaginings of the death of Ned’s brother and father. Ned is going to be in a cell, now, with some time to think and grieve and regret. Perhaps we’ll see something interesting and surprising. And even if we don’t see the Tower of Joy in this season, there’s absolutely nothing which says that we won’t see it in a future season. Does it have to come from Ned? Not necessarily. Maybe Sean Bean will be a guest star for one episode and the sequence will somehow be associated with Jon Snow (if the R+L=J theories are true). We simply can’t say. It’s just so, so problematic to expect the show to adhere so closely to the very, very specific chronology of the chapters. By all accounts – by any account – this show is so incredibly faithful to the source material as to be unbelievable. I cannot think of another television adaptation which is so meticulously adherent to its progenitor. The fact that people are now screaming – in capital letters – about the fact that Jon’s albino direwolf barked while fetching a severed arm proves that we have entered a realm of absurdity so complete, so total that we should reevaluate our priorities both individually and as a fanbase. My fucking god.

    5.) Charles Dance was nothing if not incredible. Everything I wanted from Tywin came across in that scene, and the visual impact of ‘seeing him get his hands dirty’ worked perfectly. You also need to keep in mind that while the average viewer might understand the general association between the sigils and the houses, they don’t necessarily think of them whenever they confront the houses (e.g. a giant bronze stag gleaming in a bright, neon sky doesn’t mentally flash like an epilepsy warning whenever they confront the word “Baratheon”). The skinning is no more or less subtle than the direwolf discovery scene, and I thought it was pulled off far more evocatively. The sounds of that butchery are still with me. Coupled with Dance’s steely, self-certain performance, I was rocked.

    6.) One last topic, since I haven’t mentioned it here yet: Renly + Loras. There are definitely homophobic undercurrents running through some of the posts I’ve read in the last couple weeks.

    Yes, it’s presented with subtlety in the books, but this is because we have almost no scenes between Loras and Renly in the first novel. Neither are POV characters. Scenes are added to the series to more roundly characterize important figures who aren’t given attention in the books but who are otherwise essential to the plot. This is done so that later on, when these characters ‘suddenly become important’, we don’t have to sit through miles of exposition in which we’re ‘caught up’ with who they really are. I thought the scene was fantastic. I also question why it’s necessary or even valuable to be anything but forthright about these characters in their private moments. George R.R. Martin has confirmed that Renly and Loras were written as gay lovers. Why should the show have to dance around the issue when it has the opportunity to explore richer, more interesting scenes between these two figures?

    Please, people. Save yourselves.

    Also, I’m over at http://www.twitter.com/RickonStark

    I’m sure he’ll have some choice words to say about his increasingly successful vanishing act soon enough.

    A-fucking-men, good sir.

  313. Blood
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:35 am | Permalink

    Look , the brothel scene is in there is obviously so that D&D can add anal fingering to their list of “first seen on a TV show right here on GoT”.

    Also I wonder if everyone still finds Drogo as hot now that he’s made a sacred oath to rape every woman in Westeros and take all the children as slaves.

  314. Ghost
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:46 am | Permalink

    Just wow, some of these posts are surprising to me, as book readers I would think some people here would have more imagination and be able to suspend reality a little. So Ghost barked…..it didn’t bother me at all because it didn’t detract from the joy I got from seeing him on the screen. It’s very easy to be negative, but so harmful and not just to yourself. Ignore the things you don’t like, re-interpret them to fit with how you personally see it and revel in the things on the screen that enchant you.

  315. Sara
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    From what I’ve read, wolves bark for different reasons than domesticated dogs, and generally as a warning to other wolves of danger, or because of nervousness.

    Ghost veered off as soon as they left the gate, and returned with the wight’s hand. I can suspend my disbelief to accept that, even though, yes, Ghost is generally silent.

    I can deal with these minor flaws and lack of utilizing the wolves in Season 1, but they better step up their game in Season 2. Real animals or CGI, either will do, but we’d better get Bran’s wolf dreams, and Robb riding into battle with Greywind, and tales of the demon bitch direwolf amassing a pack of lesser wolves and ravaging smallfolk.

  316. oenone
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    I would love to know what, if any TV shows you like… or at least, don’t hate.

    You watch Game of Thrones why exactly? To rip the episodes apart? Great reason for watching a show. I’ve never continually watched a series i hate, certainly not a whole season! Time is too precious, find something you actually enjoy instead of torturing yourself by watching Game of Thrones every week.

    If your arguaments made sense, it wouldn’t be so bad but mostly you talk about audio. visual, stunt techinques you know nothing about. Your comments on the sword fighting scenes are laughable, which in every one elses eyes are perfectly fine, but of course you know better.

    You find fault with such a small scene as Mord entering the sky cell and hitting Tyrion, why? The smallest of scenes which everyone else enjoys, friends i watched this with laughed at these scenes, for some bizarre reason are unable to enjoy this series like the rest of us. Such a shame, maybe you think another network besides HBO would have made a better job?

  317. A Bear_A Bear
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    The voice of sanity!

    Seriously, some “fans” don’t deserve this show. Ghost barked? Big deal. Did anybody let their nerd-rage over that or the (imho brilliantly acted by Gillen) Littlefinger scene distract them from the astonishing closing scene? If so, I feel sorry for you, really, because you’re doing yourself out of enjoying an adaptation that is much better in every respect than anyone but the most delusional fanboy (or fangirl) could have expected back when news of the series first broke.

    I mean, even if you knew that was coming, that whole end sequence in the throne room was jaw-droppingly good television, just as the ending of Episode 6 was too, and if anything even more awesome than the same scene in the book. For some reason loved the look on Ser Barristan’s face, like “as if these clowns could do me harm…” And the subtle glance exchanged between Cersei and the gold cloaks commander just before it all hit the fan. Magic.

    And Charles Dance makes a fantastic Tywin, imho. Sure, the book Tywin would probably be too mindful of his own dignity to let anyone see him “at work” as it were, but that scene worked for me. It certainly established him as a character to watch, to respect and fear, which is necessary considering the TV show can’t include all of the internal monologuing from other characters concerning just what a serious customer Tywin is.

  318. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    Wolves bark. Like dogs. One summer I worked at http://www.familieparken.no/. Wolves bark. Like dogs. The end. You are truly the troll of trolls. Are you aware that you contribute nothing to this site? Are you aware that your criticisms are seldom valid? You are a sad person. You should found the nitpickers league and go cry there.

  319. Ingemar Svensson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    Amby:
    Josh Berkowitz,

    You know, when I watched the episode I was thinking, “Why would a lord be carving up his own food?Doesn’t he have some servants to do that for him?”But you guys are right, the symbolism there is great.

    Also, sometimes men want to feel all manly and stuff. That’s why the flying spaghetti monster invented BBQ.

  320. Joohnson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Petter Kristian Vikestad: Wolves bark. Like dogs.

    Ghost doesn’t. That’s the point here. It’s out of character, just like Littlefinger spilling his biggest personal secret.

  321. IP
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    Joohnson: Ghost doesn’t. That’s the point here. It’s out of character, just like Littlefinger spilling his biggest personal secret.

    what is this big secret that LF reveals?

  322. Joohnson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    IP,

    Just rewatched it. And you’re right, it’s not much, unless Ros is very clever and picks up who he’s talking about. Still don’t see why he’d be laying out breadcrumbs like that, though.

  323. Aldaris
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    And Charles Dance makes a fantastic Tywin, imho. Sure, the book Tywin would probably be too mindful of his own dignity to let anyone see him “at work” as it were, but that scene worked for me.

    I am not so certain of that. He propably hunted that stag, and many hunters prefer to do the gutting and skinning themselves, even great Lords. This is not some menial labour, it’s part of a hobby.

  324. Gatzby
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    1) Littlefingers duel is revealed when Bronn has his fight with ser Vardis in books. The duel itself is totally out of character for Petyr. To me it shows that his love for Cat is more important to him than his political ambitions. Also he risks to get Sansa in later books.

    2) Ghosts non silence was already in Rast’s Full Metal Jacket scene (or did he growl in books too?) In books it is pointed out, that Ghost is always silent. How do you point that out on film? The bark is there for drawing attention to him where new audience wouldn’t notice him.

    3) Was that Joseph Campo as Thoren Smallwood?

  325. Ash
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    Mimi Miéville,

    I definitely agree that that’s how book-Tywin presents himself, but we do learn in book 4 that he’s motivated to seek power/prestige for personal motives as well as practical ones–the whole “my dad sucked as a ruler and squandered our wealth/prestige” thing. So while that’s definitely not how he chooses to present himself to others, it is an aspect of his character, and I think that making it more prominent makes a lot of sense in terms of adapting the series for a TV show–it makes the Stark/Lannister conflict more personal and tense, and distinguishes him from schemers like Littlefinger and Varys (who book-Tywin is probably more similar to).

  326. Bairanax
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer: R+L=J

    Quote, same my wiew point in your post

  327. JonJRaymond
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    In the books Sansa’s telling the Queen about their planned escape is related later in a conversation. We don’t find out immediately.

  328. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Joohnson,

    Well, in the pilot, nobody on WiC complained about Ghost whimpering so Jon was able to find him. Old nitpicks are old, and no, Ghost making noise is not the issue. No one cared before, so the issue here is clearly the barking, and wolves DO bark.

  329. Herr Fick
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    JonJRaymond,

    More importantly, it has no immediate bearing on the plot because Cersei already knew about Eddard’s plans.
    Sansa’s ‘betrayal’ is not a plot point but a characterisation point. Thus, it doesn’t have to be shown at this point of the story. There are many decisions and actions that characterise people but not all of them can be depicted in the television series.
    Of course, I hope that we will hear Cersei talking about this particular event at some point.

  330. Wastrel
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    I enjoyed the LF scene. In itself. LF’s monologue was brilliant, and lesbian sex is always pretty.

    However, it was still a terrible decision in the wider context.
    i) it patronised the viewers. Not just this scene but the compulsory sex scene in every single episode – “you’re too stupid to be interested in what LF is saying so here’re some breasts”. I don’t need them to meet a quota of nude shots every hour, and it’s annoying that they seem to think I do. I’ve nothing against including sex when there’s a reason for it, but cutting from actual scenes to have two characters (invented by the producers for precisely this and no other purpose) having sex is just silly.
    ii) it wasted time. the series is FAR too cramped, and this episode in particular felt very rushed with all the vital plotting that had to be squeezed in. So it was a stupid idea to spend precious minutes on a scene that contributed nothing
    iii) it contributed nothing. As pointed out, everything we learnt about LF is stuff that’s obvious already (or would have been by the end of the episode)
    iv) it totally undermined the plot of the episode. For the end of the episode to be powerful, you have to think Ned has at least a chance – the twist ending should be a twist, even if an inevitable one in hindsight. Instead, they have LF literally tell every whore he can find “I’M GOING TO BETRAY NED STARK TO HIS DEATH JUST YOU WATCH ME”. For me, in the books, LF was meant to be ambiguous – clearly untrustworthy but maybe on the right side. Having him declare an eternal vendetta against the Starks right before his betrayal just takes all the sting out of it.
    v) it undermines the character of LF. As people have said, LF is meant to be secretive and mysterious. Not explaining his life goals to every passer-by he’s never met before.More generally, I understand why they may want to make more characters understandable earlier on, but the point of the books is that these characters are revealed gradually, from different angles. What are they going to fill the later seasons with when all of the important revelations are moved to S1?
    vi) it undermines the tone of the story. The story is dark and unpleasant; but D&D seem to want to make it more and more cartoonish. Comically over-the-top villain ranting superposed on comic lesbian anal sex-play with gratuitous nudity makes it feel cheap, camp, childish and cartoonish. Which is fine if that’s what the show is meant to be (none of those things are bad entertainment per se), but it doesn’t fit well with much of the rest of the show. In the books, the sex is as realistic and as unpleasant as everything else, and having “taking a break from the mud and grime, here’s one of the producer’s fantasies!” sections just feel incongruous.

  331. iamnoone
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    I’m a long-time lurker, but I couldn’t continue to sit quietly without saying what a magnificent post that is by NousWanderer above.

    Carry on :D

  332. Gatzby
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Q:Do wolves bark?
    A:I don’t know. I’ve seen them at zoo, then they didn’t.

    Q: Do dire wolves bark?
    A:I don’t know. They have been extinct for 10000 years.

  333. Joe
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Barkgate.

    This is ridiculous. Try to enjoy the multi-million dollar, extraordinarily faithful adaptation of a beloved, but niche fantasy series. A wolf barked once. It doesn’t matter. At all.

  334. Herr Fick
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Wastrel,

    Signed.

  335. Fantasyfan
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    I thought the sex scene with the prostitutes went on too long.

    I am not embarrassed to watch it with my wife. My son… maybe.

    And will my wife want to watch with our son?

    In the books, there are at least two lesbian sex scenes. While there
    is nobody observing and directing, one of them has passing resemblance
    to what we see.

    In this comments, there has been some mention of a little “ass play.”

    Perhaps rather than getting just a little more kinky, this had a
    completely different significance.

    It related to Littlefinger’s plan to “Fuck someone in the ass.” And not in
    a tender and loving way.

    I would note that Littlefinger doesn’t tell his new employee any tactical
    intelligence. “I am going to tell Ned he has the City Watch, but really, they
    will betray him.”

    Assuming Ros does work for someone, what useful information could she share?

    Could she plausibly tell anyone who would care that Littlefinger confided in her
    that he is unscrupulous?

    I guess I should watch again.

  336. modehead
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    cardus,

    The two non-readers that I know (who aren’t prude at all,) already made jokes about HBO’s demand for boobs. After that scene, they were both completely taken out of the plot of the show and discussing how absurd HBO’s standards have gotten. That’s just one example of my point.

    Also, please, next time you want to throw away an entire argument because you don’t agree with it, don’t act all high and mighty because you are presuming facts. Your rebuttal was arrogant and ignorant.

  337. modehead
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Argilac the Arrogant,

    Yes, I’m a book reader. I’ll concede that LFs monologue fleshes his character out more. But, it’s lost in the noise of the scene. Maybe that was an artistic decision, and I see the merit in it. But, I’m not convinced.

    Re: Robert’s death. It’s just good TV and should be a cardinal rule: If you kill the king, put it on screen. He’ the King! Why keep the king’s death off screen? I don’t watch the Borgias, but if the Pope died and I only found out because someone ran into a hallway and told another character, I’d feel cheated. Same goes for the Sopranos. Every big mob boss’s death was shown. In the Wire, they showed every death of a major character. Etc excetera

  338. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    They would have had to alter the script a bit though to include Robert’s actual death.

    Milk of the Poppy would have put him ‘out’ so to speak. They could have shown Maester Pycelle giving it to him perhaps.

    However in the books, who was present for Robert’s death? Cersei, perhaps (LOL perhaps she smothered him). And then she took advantage of the situation and got her shit sorted.

    I think in the TV show it still worked to have the Death off screen because otherwise it would have kind of ruined the surprise ending of episode 7 a little bit.

  339. the Gull
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    The Litlefinger-whore scene was a bit long. I understand it’s point but it took too long to get to it. I thought overall the episode was the best one yet. So much shit goes down I could hardly contain myself. And how about the Khal Drogo monologue? Momoa was bad ass. I felt like crossing the Narrow Sea myself to rape and pillage with him. Very inspiring.

  340. Gatzby
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    modehead,

    I disagree about Robert’s death. Finding out that the king is dead and being summoned by king Joffrey and queen regent Cercei shows that Ned is two moves behind in the Game and we already had the scene of Robert signing his final will.

  341. Ed
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Wait, wait, wait… So now we’re complaining that HBO is doing things the SAME as they did in the book?? (Robert died OFF-screen in the book).

    God I wish people would make up their minds, I was all ready to start fires cause HBO was doing things DIFFERENT than the books… Sigh… (Ed goes to put his pitchforks and “don’t change the book” signs)

    modehead:
    Argilac the Arrogant,

    Re: Robert’s death. It’s just good TV and should be a cardinal rule: If you kill the king, put it on screen. He’ the King! Why keep the king’s death off screen? I don’t watch the Borgias, but if the Pope died and I only found out because someone ran into a hallway and told another character, I’d feel cheated.Same goes for the Sopranos. Every big mob boss’s death was shown. In the Wire,they showed every death of a major character.Etc excetera

  342. DisgruntledGoat
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Joohnson:
    IP,

    Just rewatched it. And you’re right, it’s not much, unless Ros is very clever and picks up who he’s talking about. Still don’t see why he’d be laying out breadcrumbs like that, though.

    That’s easy to answer. So the audience that HASN’T read the books knows what happened between Littlefinger and the Starks. It had to come up somewhere.

  343. Jimm
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    modehead:
    Argilac the Arrogant,

    Yes, I’m a book reader. I’ll concede that LFs monologue fleshes his character out more. But, it’s lost in the noise of the scene. Maybe that was an artistic decision, and I see the merit in it. But, I’m not convinced.

    Re: Robert’s death. It’s just good TV and should be a cardinal rule: If you kill the king, put it on screen. He’ the King! Why keep the king’s death off screen? I don’t watch the Borgias, but if the Pope died and I only found out because someone ran into a hallway and told another character, I’d feel cheated.Same goes for the Sopranos. Every big mob boss’s death was shown. In the Wire,they showed every death of a major character.Etc excetera

    The Soprano’s didn’t show Tony’s death.

  344. Schlafmohn
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Gatzby,

    It was GetJoeontheshow, wasn’t it? I asked the same question yesterday, but no one else seems to have noticed by now…..some bad screencaps: one two

  345. Mike
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    My only complaint about LF’s monologue scene is the same one I had about the Theon/Roz-banging one a couple weeks ago.

    It didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know, so it took screen time away from something else that they could have included but now don’t have time for.

  346. The Red Avenger
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Having read the book and not at all worried about spoilers from the episode (unless they shoe-horn in a later book revelation) I came into this thread expecting to find a discussion of the episode not 90% about one scene and it’s merits. But what has encouraged me to join in is the outlook that “Littlefinger’s monologue wasn’t necessary. I ALREADY KNOW WHAT HE’S LIKE” but the series isn’t just for you. Infact 90% of those watching probably haven’t even heard of the books. I hadn’t until a few years ago. They are watching the story cold and so whatever information is revealed through the prose of the story – it has to revealed in other ways and usually through exposition and it’s a myth to think that all the exposition has been through sex scenes. There have been plenty of others. Yes there is plenty of adult stuff but then there is in the books. Theon’s first POV chapter has him in an expository sex scene which is perhaps where they took their cue. I think some book fans have to take into consideration this is a different media and therefore open to a new audience – one who I might add is growing by each episode so D&D are definitely doing something right. I also think this may be one of the most faithful adaptations I’ve ever seen but it has to be accessible to new fans. It’s also nice to see just how many of them have gone out and bought the books on the strength of the tv series. Long may it continue

  347. Ed
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Well, sure – cause WE’VE read the books over and over and know it inside and out. I’m guessing new viewers need to be told things repeatedly so it sinks in, and I get that. (Note the repeated mentions of Jaime slaying the Mad King, now they’re bringing up Stannis repeatedly)

    I’m okay with that.

    Mike:
    My only complaint about LF’s monologue scene is the same one I had about the Theon/Roz-banging one a couple weeks ago.

    It didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know, so it took screen time away from something else that they could have included but now don’t have time for.

  348. TPFKA Thoros of Myr
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Two things comes to mind, after I somehow got to see the episode, which does not seem to have been picked up on the thread….:
    Is not the girl with Roz in the much discussed brothel scne Siben Kikelli, “you from whatever exotic place you are” .e. german.turkish, who is playing Shae?
    Jason Momoa famously having danced the haka at his casting call, anybody else catch on to the haka touches in his boast-oath?

  349. coltaine777
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    TPFKA Thoros of Myr: Two things comes to mind, after I somehow got to see the episode, which does not seem to have been picked up on the thread….:Is not the girl with Roz in the much discussed brothel scne Siben Kikelli, “you from whatever exotic place you are” .e. german.turkish, who is playing Shae?Jason Momoa famously having danced the haka at his casting call, anybody else catch on to the haka touches in his boast-oath?

    the actress with Roz is porn star Sahara Knite…Kikelli is playimg Shae….

  350. paulgude
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    Additionally, while we hope everyone’s been watching the show from episode one, there is the phenomenon of people tuning in for the first time.

    In fact, I remember people worried that the show wouldn’t pick up new viewers because it would be too hard to catch up. Now D&D are being faulted for leaving roadmaps.

    House Gatewatch: You Win or You…JK, You Can’t Win

  351. paulgude
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    TPFKA Thoros of Myr,

    Indeed! I was struck by that, and how well it worked.

    Most people don’t know this, but Charles Dance cleaned an stag during his screen test, then ate the entire thing as an encore.

  352. Phalange
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    modehead,

    So we’ve already discussed the problems with filming the wolves attacking people, but somehow everyone also wants to pull off filming a boar attack? I’d think that would be even harder to do.

  353. fuelpagan
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    The DarkStar: I heart The Smiling Knight. I will “control F” through long posts just to see what he writes and what angry people write at him. I know things got pretty heated in a previous thread about TSK getting banned, and my 2 cents is this blog would be worse off without him. APOIAF has chase, we have TSK.

    LMAO!!! Me too. It used to annoy me, now I just find him hilarious. The louder he complains, the better the show actually was. If he actually liked an episode, I’d start to worry.

  354. NousWanderer
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight

    Youre trying to hard.

    No, not really. If anything I’m giving the show the benefit of the doubt and avoiding my own knee-jerk reactions to better appreciate a show as unlikely and enjoyable as this one.

    Ah yes… the visuals. So important.
    btw, they were not compelled to authenticity – quite the opposite but i guess a guy can miss that if its hard to listen to what the characters are saying while watching all those beautiful decorations.

    The visuals absolutely are important. Again, film is a visual medium. What’s more is that people like yourself are sometimes are liable to hemorrhage over a misplaced teacup, so it’s always worth mentioning when I particularly appreciate the sumptuous set design.

    As for the whores, note that one of them was reaching orgasm (or selling it in the middle of an intense speech, which is about as authentic as it gets for a whore) and the other (Ros) was thrilling in her newfound efficacy by the end of the scene. I used the word authenticity for a reason.

    I only saw one Littlefinger dimension there. His biggest secret, thrown out to some random whores for no internally consistent reason at all.
    In complete opposition to the logic of the whole setting, fueled by the cheapest of purposes – to reveal Littlefinger deepest and most secret motivations clearly to supposedly idiotic viewer. To spell it all out way ahead of time and plot or story requirements – completely onlitering any kind of suspense that reveal might have carried.

    Absolutely not. The scene in no way established with certainty that Littlefinger would betray Ned, only that he had a preexisting resentment.

    In-fucking-credible…
    Wait… you mean to say…. that they should have hired a real mute Wolf to… what?
    Do you have any idea how the sound is recorded in movies? Any at all?
    Im finding this bit truly remarkable too.
    :lol: and the Oscar goes to Nous Wanderer for the biggest bullshit of the episode 7 comment thread.
    :applause.
    Scrivens!
    Corse not govner. Its only a dog. One of the Stark kids dogs.

    Of course I do. What you don’t seem to gather is that it doesn’t matter if Ghost’s bark is the result of the field recording or foley work. It doesn’t matter that it’s an intentional, deliberate choice on the part of the production staff. Why? Because it makes sense for it to be there. I’m not saying that they needed to FIND A MUTE WOLF. I’m saying that most audience members have no reason to understand that Ghost is a mute without being told so, especially with the amount of screen time Ghost necessarily has, and that it would be awkward if this characterization was meant to be firmly understood because of a few short scenes. A wolf glaring threateningly while poised on someone’s chest will look awkward without accompanying sound, and the muteness isn’t going to be well understood by audience members unless it’s explicitly described. That’s just the way it works.

    Of course not. After all, there are so many other witnesses of those events in front of the tower and inside of it.

    One thing you seem to forget about film is that it has no obligation to introduce new information via the characters themselves. The scene can stand alone. If it happens once Ned is dead, it’s going to be very clear that it’s depicting events from the past. There’s absolutely nothing which says that the show won’t show us events from the past, and it’s your assumption that this scene can only exist after Ned or Howland Reed stare up into space and we get a lovely dream sequence transition.

    I was not screaming. I was making a point with the same level of sophistication and subtlety those scenes were made with.

    You were typing in caps which is internet-speak for yelling. Your point was lost because you made it so poorly.

    Oh, bugger yourself with a hot poker and then jump on it. :)

    Brilliant.

    A Bear_A Bear:

    Seriously, some “fans” don’t deserve this show. Ghost barked? Big deal. Did anybody let their nerd-rage over that or the (imho brilliantly acted by Gillen) Littlefinger scene distract them from the astonishing closing scene? If so, I feel sorry for you, really, because you’re doing yourself out of enjoying an adaptation that is much better in every respect than anyone but the most delusional fanboy (or fangirl) could have expected back when news of the series first broke.

    Some people completely lack the ability to see anything on its own terms; their preconceived idols and notions act as a filter through which the world and their experiences pass, and any discrepancies between these experiences and their internal, meticulous, obsessive blueprints creates existential rage. It’s like some kind of fucked up nerdrage engine where the structure is made of fragile obsessions and the fuel is the hard work of others. The end result is a combustion of monumental bullshit by people whose scathing sarcasm, bitterness and resentment is so overpowering that one wonders how they could possibly claim to derive love, joy, excitement and happiness from the source material in the first place.

    Think what you will of the series, but it’s clearly had so, so much attention lavished on it. Nobody can charge these people with not trying hard enough or haphazardly hacking the books to pieces. But that’s what some seem destined to do, strangely enough, and it’s difficult to fathom what would make them happy. This isn’t to say that criticisms aren’t allowed. Obviously they are. But how those criticisms are made is so important, as is recognizing what assumptions exist beneath those criticisms. Much of this scathing behavior boils down to “HBO only CARES about showing tits and cock” or “because Ghost didn’t bark the producers of this show obviously have absolutely no allegiance to the source material”. There’s always this hyperbolic attempt to obliterate the goodwill of other people who are probably more talented and more invested than almost everyone on these boards.

    Example 1 (what we rarely get): “I’m disappointed that Ghost makes sounds in a few of his key scenes. This is mainly because I think it’s a hallmark trait of his character and reflects on Jon Snow as well–there’s something haunting and eerie about possessing such strength and ferociousness but being largely invisible, forgotten, on the margins. In an important way, I think Ghost parallels Jon Snow’s function as a character and we lose some of that when we see him growling and barking like any other wolf. It’s just not as powerful as I’d hoped.”

    Example 2: “BARK BARK! WOOF WOOF! WHAT THE FUCK?! NICE SUBTLETY, FUCKING PRODCUERS!”

    There’s a difference. I’m well-convinced that if The Smiling Knight had a hand in this show’s writing, it would be far more likely to fail. Should he ever become a multi-billionaire, perhaps he can hire a production team to make his own, private, personal adaptation and it can be just the way he wants. We’ll have long, sweeping shots of Ghost moving silently between snow-frosted trees and the entire first season will clock in at 124.5 hours.

    Kana:
    NousWanderer,

    Very well written, and I agree with most of it, although that Littlefinger sex scene monologue thing was still… awkward.Even though it does foreshadow both Littlefinger’s behavior, and also Shae / Tyrion later on.

    I have been pretty amused by the sudden need to defend Renly’s character.He’s hardly a fan favorite by any means, and I certainly don’t remember many fans getting in a tizzy over the importance of his perfect casting.Suddenly he’s portrayed as slightly too gay and people are jumping from their seats to defend poor Renly.

    Personally I enjoyed their scene.The books basically rely on PoV to inform us that Renly, despite his large army, is a lightweight.Now unless we want Catelyn to turn to the camera in season 2 and say ‘As you know Rodrik, actually Renly’s not really very well prepared for this kind of thing!’

    Seems like a lot of people start kneejerk complaining about any possible even perceived change to their beloved story, without realizing that it’s a totally different medium.There’s many things in the book which simply would not work well in television.Give me quality over blind loyalty to the source material, please.

    Ultimately the Littlefinger scene comes down to your own personal tastes. It worked for me–better, I think, than the Theon-Ros scene, for instance. There was far more going on and I bought that it acted as a nice valve for Littlefinger. No strategic information was revealed.

    But my overall point is that the scenes aren’t likely there solely to titillate and excite. Obviously they have that capacity, but the writers are trying to accomplish other things more subtle than simple exposition-while-people-fuck. How well they accomplish those things will vary for each of us, but the fact that this ‘type’ of scene is showing up more than once makes it worth looking at the subtext, which I think is definitely there.

    As for Renly, I couldn’t agree more.

  355. Mike G
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: The Smiling Knight, A few general questions:1) Why do you torture yourself with this show? Surely there are better and less fury-inducing ways to spend your time? I know you love the books as much as any other reader (if not more so) so I just don’t see the point in force-feeding yourself something that really just makes your blood boil.2) About what percentage of your average day is spent in a state of apoplectic rage?

    FANTASTIC AHAHAH

  356. blac9570
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: bark

    You do realize that wolves can bark? I don’t see what the big deal is here. I do wish they would have gone the CGI route instead of using the dogs. The dogs just seem to small to me.

  357. Amby
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Dude. That. Was. Awesome. Someone got served.

    Unfortunately, some people just can’t recognize a good argument when they see one, especially on internet forums. At least here we’re only talking about a TV show.

  358. dtb
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    What worries me is that the show may be relying on the sex scenes, in the same way that some comedy can rely on cussing. Sex is great, and at the right moment a well placed f-bomb is hilarious. But these things can become a lazy way to express something if overused, instead of finding a more creative approach.

    And it would be a real tragedy if by the end of season 1 we don’t have any kind of tower of joy flashback, and yet they hired some porn actresses..

    I do think some of the sex in the show has worked well(dany, loras&renly to an extent), I just hope D&D aren’t just adding extra stuff to meet some kind of “quota” for each episode

  359. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer your post is full of win lol. IMO SmilingKnight is just playing with us because it’s just unfathomable for me that someone can get so upset about a wolf barking. If his whining and crying are in fact sincere then god save us all, I have no more faith in humanity.

  360. paulgude
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Brilliant again.

  361. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Here here! Yes, TSM has demonstrated through his own writing that he has a bizarre and very unrealistic notion about how film and television production work, and giving him and episode to write would result in a laughably uninteresting (though book faithful!) plodding mess of a story.

  362. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    modehead: Argilac the Arrogant, Yes, I’m a book reader. I’ll concede that LFs monologue fleshes his character out more. But, it’s lost in the noise of the scene. Maybe that was an artistic decision, and I see the merit in it. But, I’m not convinced.Re: Robert’s death. It’s just good TV and should be a cardinal rule: If you kill the king, put it on screen. He’ the King! Why keep the king’s death off screen? I don’t watch the Borgias, but if the Pope died and I only found out because someone ran into a hallway and told another character, I’d feel cheated. Same goes for the Sopranos. Every big mob boss’s death was shown. In the Wire, they showed every death of a major character. Etc excetera

    I am so glad they didn’t show Robert’s death. I’m totally sick of these on-screen deathbed scenes, with an emotional dramatic moment between the dyee and those he loves, where he has just enough time (or, for the most tragic stories, not quite enough) to declare his last words of love or regret or whatever, then is gone. Barf. I’m glad they kept it offscreen like it was in the book.

  363. Phalange
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer just butt-fingered The Smiling Knight like he was a whore in King’s Landing.

  364. digtastik
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    If nothing else, all the attention that has been given to this scene/episode has only made me that much more curious to see what all the fuss is about.

  365. nixterida
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,
    Seriously man why so serious? Ghost barked, so what? Did i miss the “Silent Wolf That Was Promised” prophecy? What book was it in?

  366. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    theendofsmiles:
    the smiling knight licks balls. hes a ball licker.

    I have only five, no…six words for you buddy.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj2T9L9Q7FQ

    HorRIFTic,
    First is a howling bark of an imprisoned Wolf, second is yelping and barking – both extremely rare and yes i have seen those videos before i posted anything.

    Tell me.. when someone mentions a wolf… whats your first association of it? Howling or dog like barking?

    When you see that DOG acting as Ghost going “woof woof” do you think “gosh, now thats a proper wolf, ney, a direwolf! Ney! It`be proper silent Ghost who never even so much as yelps or growls or howls in the books!” or do you think “well that dog kinda looks like a wolf”?

    ———

    Shut – the hell – up, – liar.

    NousWanderer:
    The Smiling Knight

    The visuals absolutely are important. Again, film is a visual medium. What’s more is that people like yourself are sometimes are liable to hemorrhage over a misplaced teacup, so it’s always worth mentioning when I particularly appreciate the sumptuous set design.

    Oh nice, another “discrete” strawman. I can see how the local crowd is impressed by your witty writing.

    No, youre another fanboy apologist whose emotional investment largely lies on the visual of the show and the rest can be excused or forgotten in any way – for you to continue enjoying it. Anything threatening that is met with insults and or pathetic whining.

    As for the whores, note that one of them was reaching orgasm (or selling it in the middle of an intense speech, which is about as authentic as it gets for a whore) and the other (Ros) was thrilling in her newfound efficacy by the end of the scene. I used the word authenticity for a reason.

    Nice try but for the fact they were both acting there was nothing authentic about it, except that they are acting.

    Absolutely not. The scene in no way established with certainty that Littlefinger would betray Ned, only that he had a preexisting resentment.

    I didnt say anything about betraying Ned. Is it too hard not applying your own private meanings to other people words?

    Of course I do. What you don’t seem to gather is that it doesn’t matter if Ghost’s bark is the result of the field recording or foley work. It doesn’t matter that it’s an intentional, deliberate choice on the part of the production staff. Why? Because it makes sense for it to be there.

    Why the hell would a dog bark make sense when youre trying to convince the audience that they are seeing a wolf?

    Why make Ghost into an ordinary direwolf when his silence is the part of his character, and why do it with a dog like barking in the first place?

    What exactly, making Ghost look like a dog does achieve here?

    Why do i have to spell out these so obvious things… wait.. oh right.

    I’m not saying that they needed to FIND A MUTE WOLF. I’m saying that most audience members have no reason to understand that Ghost is a mute without being told so, especially with the amount of screen time Ghost necessarily has, and that it would be awkward if this characterization was meant to be firmly understood because of a few short scenes.

    Yes, yes you imbecille, thats why i told you you get a reward for the bullshit of the thread but even that is too complicated to understand it seems.

    You were claiming that saying one sentence about Ghost would be out of place and whatever – in the series that spends minutes of time on shitty expository scenes done in cheapest ways imaginable.

    One thing you seem to forget about film is that it has no obligation to introduce new information via the characters themselves. The scene can stand alone. If it happens once Ned is dead, it’s going to be very clear that it’s depicting events from the past. There’s absolutely nothing which says that the show won’t show us events from the past, and it’s your assumption that this scene can only exist after Ned or Howland Reed stare up into space and we get a lovely dream sequence transition.

    Im saying there is this thing called internal consistency which would be served best if it was Ned remembering it since he is the only one who can remember it as it was described in the books.

    Sure you can have some random idiot or even Howland Reed, Jojen or Meera remembering it for him – it would be a lesser, cheaper and worse option, especially since you still have Ned available to do it.

    No, what youre saying is just another apologetic pre-emptive bullshit – in case they do not show te scene.
    It will go from “oh someone else can remember it, its a movie for chris sakes” to “it isnt important for the plot” or some form of it.

    You were typing in caps which is internet-speak for yelling. Your point was lost because you made it so poorly.

    Yes, but the yelling is not screaming and it had a point.
    My point was lost on you – because youre an ego tripping imbecile.

    Brilliant.

    I know.

    Some people completely lack the ability to see anything on its own terms; their preconceived idols and notions act as a filter through which the world and their experiences pass, and any discrepancies between these experiences and their internal, meticulous, obsessive blueprints creates existential rage. It’s like some kind of fucked up nerdrage engine where the structure is made of fragile obsessions and the fuel is the hard work of others.

    Isnt this thread and posts of you and your ilk a fine proof of it?
    Why just look at all these pathetic little shits cropping up after you and desperately trying to gloat while they have the time.

    The end result is a combustion of monumental bullshit by people whose scathing sarcasm, bitterness and resentment is so overpowering that one wonders how they could possibly claim to derive love, joy, excitement and happiness from the source material in the first place.

    Oh hahahaha… now you will tell me what i can and cannot enjoy in the source material too?
    ego`s – what a funny pathetic things they are…

    How about logic, brilliant writing and deep interconnected, internally consistent plot?
    Its overall subtlety in how it develops and deals with every facet of its characters to?

    Think what you will of the series, but it’s clearly had so, so much attention lavished on it. Nobody can charge these people with not trying hard enough or haphazardly hacking the books to pieces.

    Would you do me a favor and find a sentence where anyone was saying anything about hacking the book to pieces?

    But that’s what some seem destined to do, strangely enough, and it’s difficult to fathom what would make them happy. This isn’t to say that criticisms aren’t allowed. Obviously they are. But how those criticisms are made is so important, as is recognizing what assumptions exist beneath those criticisms.

    Right, right… the old “only criticisms i approve of are admissible” coupled with the fact that your counter arguments are as insulting and rife will willful invented assumptions of true motivations and reasons of other people words.

    Same old story every time…

    Much of this scathing behavior boils down to “HBO only CARES about showing tits and cock” or “because Ghost didn’t bark the producers of this show obviously have absolutely no allegiance to the source material”.

    Really? And this is so because you say it is so?

    There’s always this hyperbolic attempt to obliterate the goodwill of other people who are probably more talented and more invested than almost everyone on these boards.

    ooooh… people are trying to obliterate the good will of the producers and others… by criticizing some parts of the show? Is it like in that movie with aliens? no seriously.

    Example 1 (what we rarely get): “I’m disappointed that Ghost makes sounds in a few of his key scenes. This is mainly because I think it’s a hallmark trait of his character and reflects on Jon Snow as well–there’s something haunting and eerie about possessing such strength and ferociousness but being largely invisible, forgotten, on the margins. In an important way, I think Ghost parallels Jon Snow’s function as a character and we lose some of that when we see him growling and barking like any other wolf. It’s just not as powerful as I’d hoped.”

    Barking like a – DOG, you pathetic apologist.

  367. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Uh oh, sounds like NousWanderer has woken the dragon….

  368. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t even read his post. Just scrolled down and laughed at the length of it.

  369. Knurk
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    (I have posted this also in the last thread but I think you’re putting all your energy in this thread now). Clearly you have very high standards for being entertained. I’m wondering what your favourite tv-shows/movies are, and which tv-shows/movies are just on the tipping point from being good to being bad (as in what’s your least favourite good tv-show/movie).

  370. fuelpagan
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    Oh, but you should read it. He points the finger at a fallacious argument while committing several fallacies of his own. It’s funny shit.

    OT:
    BTW. I love your handle. I thought to myself, “I wonder if Cersei said that when she ate the turtle soup!

  371. NousWanderer
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Uh oh, sounds like NousWanderer has woken the dragon….

    A grave injustice to dragons everywhere.

    fuelpagan:
    TastesLikeTheSea,

    Oh, but you should read it. He points the finger at a fallacious argument while committing several fallacies of his own. It’s funny shit.

    OT:
    BTW. I love your handle. I thought to myself, “I wonder if Cersei said that when she ate the turtle soup!

    If my post contained a necessarily fallacious argument in and of itself, I’d love to hear about it so we could discuss. I’m not really considering TSK’s interpretation of any of my views here, so I’m open to other viewpoints. ;)

  372. Bene
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Best. Episode. Ever!

    i didnt like the whorehouse scene – ways over the top. id like to kepp recommending the series to others. but i dont like recommending soft porn. and i cant believe anyone is watching the series just for the boobs (…eand we even we got to see ways more than just boobs in this episode…).

    anyways, i am overwhelmed by how close to the books they are in so many scenes and dialogues. the throne room scene was epic. of course, more screen time to play things out would be a great benefit, but respecting the given limitations i love what we get!

  373. Stephen Berry
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    No! The show is evil! And complete sh*t! Aaaaaaarrgh! The producers hate us!!!! The apocolypse is coming!!!!

    Wait….. The apocalypse almost did come, right?

  374. john
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Amazing episode.

    That said, this site needs a few moderators or something. It’s a shame to see the discussion degrading to this level. No joy in reading the comment section anymore because it’s always full of either downright trolls, or people who are nothing but negative. It’s getting old.

  375. Ben
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    They cut three sentences out of the Night’s Watch Oath! Why the hell would they do that! It would only have been like 5 seconds more screen time! Anyone else notice this, and share my outrage? “I am the horn that wakes the sleepers” is my favorite part, dammit!

  376. NousWanderer
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    john,

    Very much in agreement with you.

  377. Steve the Pirate
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    I still find it hilarious that people whine about “soft core porn” but have no problem with knives in eye sockets. That in a nutshell is what’s wrong with American society. I’m American, so I can say that. :P
    And that’s not soft core porn. If it were, we would have seen more of the oral action. Dammit.
    As far as the barking? Repeat after me: 99.99% of the viewing audience doesn’t give a fuck. Let it go.

  378. Sara
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Ben,

    I was. =\ they cut out “I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers,” — I did have an “Oh :C” moment at that, but still, it was good to see a face on the heart tree this time.

  379. purplejilly
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: fallacious

    Now you made me go look up “fallacious” just to make sure I was remembering its meaning correctly..

  380. Sara
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Ahahahahaha. They DO sound alike. ;)

  381. purplejilly
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Ben: They cut three sentences out of the Night’s Watch Oath! Why the hell would they do that! It would only have been like 5 seconds more screen time! Anyone else notice this, and share my outrage? “I am the horn that wakes the sleepers” is my favorite part, dammit!

    What?? Seriously, unless GRRM approved this edit, or asked them to change it, that’s really, really showing a lot of disrespect to the source material. What on earth is the point of changing the Night’s Watch Oath to make it 5 seconds shorter? Esp. when you got to blow a horn to warn people as part of the Maester’s Path challenge online? Wow, this actually is quite bothersome..

  382. purplejilly
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Sara,
    Yeah, and when they were talking about ‘performing fallacious acts’ in the post, well, considering what I’ve seen on screen lately, my mind just ‘went there’.. LOL. Gives a whole new meaning to “The Smiling Knight”..

  383. purplejilly
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: We’ll have long, sweeping shots of Ghost moving silently between snow-frosted trees and the entire first season will clock in at 124.5 hours.

    I would probably actually watch that : )

  384. Sara
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Lmao. He’s smiling for a reason? ;)

    I swear I think I’m the only person (besides the elegantly-put Nous) that actually ENJOYED Littlefinger’s soliloquoy. At best, the whores know he has loved a woman for a very long time, and most whores meet terrible ends in ASOIAF, so I doubt they’ll go digging for any specifics elsewhere. Maybe it was just Aiden Gillen’s preformance, but he totally owned Baelish in that scene. All I can say to HBO is “More, please?” and I really don’t care if they decide to hang out the lesbian sex drapes again, or not, because I’ll likely not notice. XD

  385. fuelpagan
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: If my post contained a necessarily fallacious argument in and of itself, I’d love to hear about it so we could discuss. I’m not really considering TSK’s interpretation of any of my views here, so I’m open to other viewpoints.

    LOL. I honestly don’t see any fallacy in your argument that he claims is a strawman. Strawman fallacy is a substitution of a superficially similar situation to discredit a position. That’s not what you did. Your substitution was to give reason why you feel it’s necessary to push visuals, not discredit a position. So yeah, I’m struggling with his claim of a strawman.

    I tried in the episode 3 recap to get TSK to see what else the scene is doing than just what is on the surface. But he just holds to his position regardless, as I’m sure you have noticed. Which is fine. I enjoy debating someone with a differing opinion. But his tone is not fine. As you pointed out with your 2 examples. I don’t think he will ever understand the difference between debating and attacking.

    Now I just read his posts because I find it funny. His logic certainly differs from what I’ve studied.

    Here is a nice example of a TSK scene. I about died laughing.

  386. Hawk of the North
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    what’s that saying about arguing on the internet and winning an event in the Special Olympics?

    no offense to any of you Special Olympians out there…

  387. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Ok, here is an informative article from NOVA Online. Fairly respectable source for information about science, I think we can all agree.

    This article is written by Fred H. Harrington, Professor of Ethology (study of animal behavior), Mount Saint Vincent University, Nova Scotia. The following is the introduction to an article about wolves and — you guessed it! — their howling.

    Ask anyone about wolf vocalizations and the howl invariably springs to mind. Even though wolves bark, woof, whine, whimper, yelp, growl, snarl and moan a lot more often than they howl, it is howling that defines the wolf, and fascinates us.

    The emphasis is my own. I will sum up the main point in all caps because everyone knows that’s an effective way to make a point when writing online. WOLVES BARK MORE OFTEN THAN THEY HOWL. So, Smiling Knight, you don’t know what you are talking about. Period. Wolves bark more frequently than they howl. Stop pretending they don’t.

    If you need to have a pet issue to be pissed off about (and we all know you do!) I recommend being pissed off because Ghost — specifically and exclusively Ghost — is mute in the books. It’s still a pretty silly thing to get riled up about, but at least it’s something you didn’t just pull out of your ass. Oh, also be sure to pretend that’s what you were upset about all along, not just wolf barking, so as to make yourself appear to be less of a half-witted mouth-breather. Wolves bark, and apparently they do it all the time. The evidence is mounting that you just make things up and say words and hope people will believe them because all those capital letters look oh-so-very authoritative. Crawl back under the bridge in your mom’s basement.

  388. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    The essence of this argument:
    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

  389. vibesmoother
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    I just deconstructed, parsed, re-deconstructed, reassembled, analyzed, over-analyzed, then repeated my over-analyzed parsing of every sentence, punctuation mark, name, quote, and empty space in between down to their infinitesimal meaning in all these posts that I don’t think I or, thankfully, the smiling knight, GOT, HBO, TV, or the universe even exist anymore.

    ….and I have never felt more awesome…..

  390. Ser Karnaan
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider,

    Ghost doesn’t make any noise, he is mute after all. or at least has not made any noise so far. in the books anyway, i didn’t even notice the bark in the ep, I guess it is just a way to have the Watch guys notice he is coming. To be honest Ghost making noise is not a deviation that I see makes any difference at all.

  391. Drfunk
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    You know I get home and get excited there’s over a 100 comments I haven’t read in this topic. Then i find over half of it is about Ghost barking and why it wasn’t edited. Talk about bitching at the most irrelevant aspect of the show. Seriously Smiling Knight. In case you haven’t noticed, the wolves are kind of like random fixtures in the background. Aside from summer ripping the dumbass (which prob spent their entire wolf f/x budget), we’ve seen ghost growl+bark(omg how dare he), greywind be a carpet rug, Nymeria doing her “I’m a cute little wolfiee aww gimme a hug”. Meaning D&D showed us that real dogs are epic fail (that breed). How the @$#@$@ can you bitch about growling when they didn’t even show the wolf WWE tag team vs wildling in the Bran scene??? Your bitching priorities are messed up dude.

    As for the sexposition, I blame Spartacus for it. All the fanboys watching that show expect to see either:

    1. Decapitation
    2. Boobs
    3. Dry humping
    4. Combination of 2+3
    5. Minor dialogue

    Does it bother me that they feel compelled to show this is an R rated series? Not really. Am I disappointed that they’ve painted Varys and Littlefinger as somewhat more human (fallible I should say). Yes. In the books those two were virtually above everything. Never knew what they were up to, they were always 5 steps ahead of everyone else. When they DID make a move it was felt across the whole board (like littlefinger here). In the TV version, they are shown as people who are smart but also very very vulnerable. The Littlefinger i envisioned would not be running his mouth at anyone, you REALLY wouldn’t know wtf the dude is about. Same with Varys, these are professional liars whose sole purpose in the show is to be ambiguous. So yeah kind of dissapointed they painted him as such, the same way I feel about Cercei being an ice queen instead of a maneater. Am I the only one who saw Cercei ala Sharon Stone in basic instinct 1? She eats men for breakfast with her blatant sexuality, in here she’s this frosty ice queen which drives me nuts. Not to mention they removed her move on Ned arggh..

    Anyways enough of my mini rant. Point is TV show is NOT the books. OK? IT IS NOT THE BOOKS (bolded it for you Smiling Knight). Don’t like it? Don’t watch it. We have a tremendous community of fans of all different backgrounds. There’s so many other interesting stuff we could be talking about instead of this phD analysis of wolf barking…

    PS: someone call out Barristan to dispatch the Smiling Knight if he keeps trolling in the next 20 posts :D

  392. Stephen Berry
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    You know, this place kinda sucks to be at now. It’s no fun reading the threads here anymore. ::sigh::

    Later.

  393. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Dear HBO,
    please stop using sexposition as a plot device, it’s only episode seven and has already become a parody of it’s self, not to mentioned coined a new internet meme. Surely your writing team can come up with something more clever than banging a chick while monologuing to get your point across.

  394. The DarkStar
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk: How the @$#@$@ can you bitch about growling when they didn’t even show the wolf WWE tag team vs wildling in the Bran scene??? Your bitching priorities are messed up dude.

    Good point.
    When watching that scene with somebody who didn’t read the books, she kept saying, “here comes his wolf, watch out”, when it didn’t happen I leaned over and told her how that went down on page, but, I wasn’t even dissapointed because the dogs are all pretty stupid, they could have ruined that scene just as easily as made it better. I was more concerned with Theon shooting the arrow, I thought it went right past Brans head through the dudes eye, not in his back?

  395. The DarkStar
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Sexposition aside. I liked the reveal of littlefingers character. I’m also a big fan of the littlefinger varys throne room scene. You can’t have Aiden Guillen sitting around for three seasons before people realize he’s THE player. Works in books, not on TV shows with actors. I think thats one of the things that makes re-reads of the series so awesome(reading the same words but with new info about the characters). Reading about little finger in book one, knowing he is super powerful, but the show affords us that insight in his character to enjoy him right away.

  396. Jack Slap
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard,

    where is this episode 8 preview? I cant find it anywhere on HBOGO

  397. userj
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Tywin… was… I have no words. Amazing. Perfect. Jaime was like… putty in his hands. Awesome.

    Also, I think I’m crushing on Ser Jorah. Much more than when reading, and I had a bit of a crush on him then too. *blush* It’ll be hard watching the poor man self-destruct, if we get that far…

  398. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture,

    First off that sentence you quoted clearly states that wolves make all sorts of sounds more often then howl. That is true since howling is used for a specific purpose.
    It did not say that wolves bark more often than anything else.

    They certainly do not bark like the dogs do. They can make barking sounds but thats different than dog barks.

    However, the image of the wolf is strongly connected with howling to every human.
    Thats how we see wolves.
    Wolf – howls.
    Dog – barks.

    When you, or anyone else, sees a four legged canine looking animal that goes Woof, Woof! you do not think – Wolf!

    On top of that, of course, Ghost shouldnt make any sounds at all.
    And if he by some chance does – they shouldnt be dog specific sounds.
    Because that defeats the whole purpose trying to make it look like there is a wolf there and not a dog.

    Ive said all of this already, you just need to scroll and look it up if reading more than one sentence isnt too much for you, which i really doubt.

    After that you can collect the vomit of this post you wrote and suck it up.

    Drfunk,
    Im criticizing the dog barking, not the growling in this case, because it could have been easily edited out.

    Ghost growling was also wrong but since they have shown so much incompetence to portray this side of the story and generally avoided any subtlety at all in anything, not just direwolf theme i felt like getting over it. Obviously they thought a silent bearing of fangs is not threatening enough so they had to emphasize the threat with a growl.
    (plus they never bothered to explain that Ghost is completely silent and does not even howl which is just one of the mistakes they made in regards to the Stark wolves)
    A growl i could live with. Dog bark – no.

    I didnt really expect wolves in the Bran scene because its been made clear that sort of thing is outside of their competency or intention long ago.

    Surely, editing out, or not recording it in the first place, a dog bark isnt out of their powers and abilities. The number of posts about it are merely answers to people responding back.

    But, you say the tv show isnt a book? Why thank you for bringing that to my attention.
    And i was trying to twist my LCD all this time….

    Does that mean that whatever they do is simply fantastic? Or is that a cheap excuse that has no specific meaning to issues at hand?

    You say Cersei and Littlefinger were not meant to be exactly like this? Direwolves not executed nearly good enough etc?
    Its a tv show buddy – its not a book.

    For the record, apart from the unfortunate Littlefinger exposition spill and that dog barking this episode was pretty much excellent. Seeing Eddard walk towards the Throne room i almost felt a certain tightening in my throat.

  399. GP
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    DaveB:Hey, what happened to the GRRM-confirmed rumor that someone who doesn’t die until book 3 was going to die this episode?

    I believe that happened in episode 6 when Marillion the singer is killed in the attack by the hill tribes. At least I think he died because I don’t remember seeing him in the Eyrie.

  400. Drfunk
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    My point was your issues seems trivial compared to the other stuff that could have been handled better (you know like character changes). Think about it, you’re basically writing off this great adaptation which is prob as good as it would get (in terms of tv) on the basis that it didn’t edit out the barking… Seriously, even hardcore fans would overlook that part or even notice it, nevermind the newcomers. As for Ghost not being silent, they never mentioned that part in the show. Maybe that part has been changed as well oh noes! So let’s all move on from discovery channel edition of barking vs howling and focus on other stuff.

  401. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Jordan Healey:

    Some of the new scenes have been great, but a lot of the (particularly long ones) could have been improved by being shorter and to the point. It seems like they’ve gone and chopped down George’s writing (in some cases tragically editing out the best lines) – but they haven’t really been as tidy with their own writing.

    I totally agree with this.

    and sometimes it breaks my heart.

    But it’s not happening as much here as I’ve seen it so many times before from book to film adaptations of beloved literature. twice an episode maybe. It could be A LOT worse I guess.

    I’m enjoying the series. It’s better than most stuff on TV. I miss a lot of stuff also. it isn’t perfect, but it’s not shit. Most of it I really Love!

  402. FeedtheTrolls
    Posted May 24, 2011 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    If you feel the episode was that strong then start of your comment that way or at least mention it up front. Why the intense focus on the negative? We all have our complaints but please put them in the proper balance.

    It seems like you get some perverse pleasure from making fanboys squeal. It’s all a bit tiresome.

  403. JD
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Yeah I wouldn’t get so incredibly picky. And GRRM wrote episode 8 people so don’t try to cut on the little things, everything is intentional.

  404. From Chaos
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Quick question… alot of people found episodes five and six to be the best of the group so far. Where would you lucky folks rank # seven among the bunch?

  405. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:
    Eric Bigpicture,

    First off that sentence you quoted clearly states that wolves make all sorts of sounds more often then howl. That is true since howling is used for a specific purpose.
    It did not say that wolves bark more often than anything else.

    I wasn’t even going to respond, but you obviously can’t read very well, so I felt obligated to correct you. First of all, you are correct: that paragraph I quoted does not say that “wolves bark more often than anything else.” You know who did claim it said that? You. Certainly not me. Just to clarify, here is the original quote from the article I cited and linked to (look up the concept of “citation” if you are unfamiliar):

    Ask anyone about wolf vocalizations and the howl invariably springs to mind. Even though wolves bark, woof, whine, whimper, yelp, growl, snarl and moan a lot more often than they howl, it is howling that defines the wolf, and fascinates us.

    I left out my emphasis that time, lest it confuse you. That paragraph states that wolves bark more often than they howl, a fact you ridiculed as ludicrous not 24 hours ago.

    Here is another quote. This is the one where I — in a not-so-subtle fashion — make fun of you for being a shitty writer while summarizing the contents of the preceding paragraph. Read carefully, there are polysyllabic words. Just sound them out slowly:

    I will sum up the main point in all caps because everyone knows that’s an effective way to make a point when writing online. WOLVES BARK MORE OFTEN THAN THEY HOWL.

    As you can see (and could have seen previously had you bothered to scroll your semen-encrusted mouse wheel away from you until my original post came into view), neither I, Dr. Harringon, nor for all I know Jesus Christ Himself ever claimed that wolves bark “more often than anything else.” Just that they bark more often than they howl — a fact that pretty much finger-bangs your previous claims right in the shitter, so I understand why you would want to misrepresent it. However, if you are going to try to make an argument, it is generally considered the norm to refrain from making one based on fabricated evidence. Also, if you are going to go to the trouble of quoting people, at least bother reading what they wrote. Lastly, if you are going to blatantly misquote someone, try to do it someplace where the original quote isn’t published for all to see on the same page as your truth-stretch. In certain professions (ones that don’t revolve around a guild) this sort of sloppy and ethically retarded behavior can lead to real trouble.

    Ethically retarded. I’m not making any judgements about your intellect or mental capacity. What would I base such a judgement on, hundreds and hundreds of words of your writing? ;) (That’s a winky face)

    To the rest of the forum, I apologize for the ugliness and I pledge to be done sullying the boards with this nonsense. I would love if we could get back to important completely pointless trivial matters, such as the disappearing/reappearing deer skin in the Tywin scene. :)

  406. NousWanderer
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    JD:
    Yeah I wouldn’t get so incredibly picky. And GRRM wrote episode 8 people so don’t try to cut on the little things, everything is intentional.

    A sick, disgusting, perverted, awful part of me legitimately hopes that the nitpicker squad manifests in full force for the only episode George R.R. Martin wrote the entirety of. It would resonate with me on some cosmically absurd level.

    “GEORGE R.R. MARTIN, YOU ARE FAILING GEORGE R.R. MARTIN!”

  407. HuntGod
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    If I want a lesbian sex scene there are no shortage of sources for that material…

    If I want a good adaptation of a novel I hold dear to my heart, there is only one source…

    Why mix them?

    The scene ran 4 minutes and change btw and was completely gratuitous and served NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER!

    The galling part is that there are ample opportunities in the original text for sex and titillation if that’s what you need, without just fabricating crap that doesn’t serve any useful or developmental purpose.

    I would think the Shae storyline is going to be culled or modified and Ros used instead, otherwise why invest us in this whore from the north?

    Other than the ridiculously unnecessary sex scene, it was a great episode and I really enjoy the Tywin/Jaime scene and yes Charles Dance (though not visually perfect) is an excellent choice for Tywin and I couldn’t have picked a better.

  408. Sara
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer: A sick, disgusting, perverted, awful part of me legitimately hopes that the nitpicker squad manifests in full force for the only episode George R.R. Martin wrote the entirety of. It would resonate with me on some cosmically absurd level.“GEORGE R.R. MARTIN, YOU ARE FAILING GEORGE R.R. MARTIN!”

    I love you.

  409. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture,

    Oh, you just repeated the starting statement and thrown in some more pathetic elementary school insults that actually perfectly describe you and your posting.
    Which means i dont even have to bother.

    semen encrusted mouse wheel? Ho ho ho… i bet you thought that was a nasty remark? Hahahaha…. my, my…and then you write about ethical retardation? :lol:

    I think you should consider wiping some of that away from your face before writing such drivel in public.

    The second pathetic attempt to twist that statement you quoted into an “argument” works as much as the first one. Not at all.

    The quote clearly states that wolves make several different types of sounds more often than they howl. It does not state that they bark more than they howl – which is just your fabrication, unless its written in invisible ink only you can read.

    lets cite away:

    Even though wolves bark, woof, whine, whimper, yelp, growl, snarl and moan a lot more often than they howl, – it is howling that defines the wolf, – and fascinates us.

    ok? ive bolded parts that are actually relevant that you missed.

    I dont see where it says :

    WOLVES BARK MORE OFTEN THAN THEY HOWL.

    Yeah i imagine it must be difficult to read with all that stuff in your eyes and such a huge butthurt.

    but i like you, really, on kingsguards honor….you should drop by the Kingswood sometime, i feel we would have a lot of fun.

    Drfunk,
    I am not writing off the whole adaptation.
    Im merely criticizing one specific issue that is inordinately jarring because the whole direwolf theme has been so poorly managed from the start.
    This is like sipping salt into a wound. Pouring gin into my whiskey. Eating marmelade with cheese…. No, its even worse than that.

    What other issues would you talk about? There are no issues. Dont you remember?
    This is a TV show not a book.

    Like, if you turn this to the other side all you see are electric cables and plastic casing and whats written on it is totally unconnected to the plot or characters.
    Believe me i checked.

    FeedtheTrolls,
    I was going to but then that guy said it actually fits, for seven sake – and that other guy made a whole book long post of strawman arguments and some weird excuses and whatnot, being all smarmy and pleasant like – telling me what my intentions and thoughts are and so on…

    Lets try now!

    ok, Cersei didnt make a pass at Eddard – but that would have been completely out of line because of the way they have been playing her and Eddards character up to now.
    They also havent talked in the Godswood either which is a shame… but yeah, what can you do.
    Apart from that it was very good.

    Roberts death bed – Mark Addy rules.(pun intended)

    Daenerys thread – excellent and best one yet. That side of the story was incredibly stilted all the way through and suffered greatly for it. With a few more scenes and a bit more time it feels much, much better. Drogo whips it finally and it looks cool even though i thought it will come out really cheesy based on previews.

    Osha-Theon- Luwin – great. (i always imagined Osha pretty much as Natalia Tena so – no problems there and she does a great job – although i wish there was less monkey posturing since i never got that particular vibe from the wildlings)

    Jon getting his stewardship and all – good.
    Nights watch oath – good even with few lines of an oath missing.
    The Weirwood tree face is an unfortunate replica of La bocca della verita,
    http://www.iloverome.net/rome-history-the-mouth-of-truth/

    But then again… hmm… maybe it only bothers me a bit because i thought it was so expected because its something so familiar to me… i guess it can represent a nifty trick to other people.

    Neds demise – as good as the book.

    NousWanderer:
    john,
    Very much in agreement with you.

    I guess i could apologize for calling you names since a much more appropriate candidate presented his case. But take the other stuff i said very sternly.

    From Chaos,
    Best one yet, without a doubt.

  410. Gytha Ogg
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate: I still find it hilarious that people whine about “soft core porn” but have no problem with knives in eye sockets. That in a nutshell is what’s wrong with American society. I’m American, so I can say that. And that’s not soft core porn. If it were, we would have seen more of the oral action. Dammit.As far as the barking? Repeat after me: 99.99% of the viewing audience doesn’t give a fuck. Let it go.

    Stp, I love ya and you’re often the voice of reason here, but I don’t think that’s entirely fair – was the Jory scene 4-5 mins of knife twisting and screaming? I dont care about nudity or sex, it doesnt offend me at all, and I thought previous complaints about a few ass shots/sex in the show were silly – BUT THE SCENE JUST WENT ON FOR SO FRIGGING LONG. it became ridiculous and I found it jarring. What I think bothered me is that over the previous 6 eps, the show established a baseline of sex/nudity that we got used to. Less than spartacus, more than the wire sort of thing. So to have 4 mins of porn star shrieking and ass fingering was jarring and pulled me out of the show. Cutting the nights watch vows instead of 15 seconds less of Ros and her friend? Meh. If this makes me a prude, so be it.

    Oh well, Jon/Sam and Tywin more than made up for it :)

  411. Gytha Ogg
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate: I still find it hilarious that people whine about “soft core porn” but have no problem with knives in eye sockets. That in a nutshell is what’s wrong with American society. I’m American, so I can say that. And that’s not soft core porn. If it were, we would have seen more of the oral action. Dammit.As far as the barking? Repeat after me: 99.99% of the viewing audience doesn’t give a fuck. Let it go.

    Stp, I love ya and you’re often the voice of reason here, but I don’t think that’s entirely fair – was the Jory scene 4-5 mins of knife twisting and screaming? I dont care about nudity or sex, it doesnt offend me at all, and I thought previous complaints about a few ass shots/sex in the show were silly – BUT THE SCENE JUST WENT ON FOR SO FRIGGING LONG. it became ridiculous and I found it jarring. What I think bothered me is that over the previous 6 eps, the show established a baseline of sex/nudity that we got used to. Less than true blood, more than the wire sort of thing. So to have 4 mins of porn star shrieking and ass fingering was jarring and pulled me out of the show. Cutting the nights watch vows instead of 15 seconds less of Ros and her friend? Meh. If this makes me a prude, so be it.

    Oh well, Jon/Sam and Tywin more than made up for it :)

  412. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture:
    Ok, here is an informative article from NOVA Online. Fairly respectable source for information about science, I think we can all agree.

    This article is written by Fred H. Harrington, Professor of Ethology (study of animal behavior), Mount Saint Vincent University, Nova Scotia. The following is the introduction to an article about wolves and — you guessed it! — their howling.

    The emphasis is my own. I will sum up the main point in all caps because everyone knows that’s an effective way to make a point when writing online.WOLVES BARK MORE OFTEN THAN THEY HOWL. So, Smiling Knight, you don’t know what you are talking about. Period. Wolves bark more frequently than they howl. Stop pretending they don’t.

    If you need to have a pet issue to be pissed off about (and we all know you do!) I recommend being pissed off because Ghost — specifically and exclusively Ghost — is mute in the books. It’s still a pretty silly thing to get riled up about, but at least it’s something you didn’t just pull out of your ass. Oh, also be sure to pretend that’s what you were upset about all along, not just wolf barking, so as to make yourself appear to be less of a half-witted mouth-breather. Wolves bark, and apparently they do it all the time. The evidence is mounting that you just make things up and say words and hope people will believe them because all those capital letters look oh-so-very authoritative. Crawl back under the bridge in your mom’s basement.

    ghost doesn’t bark.

  413. DrShock
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    They indeed have plenty of scenes from the book they can have nudity in if they want it, no question. Why create bad, obvious injections of T&A?

    That’s the sad truth here- it’s almost like what you’d see some shlock producers do back in decades past. Ever see a finished film get gratuitous T & A scenes added to get it distributed? These “scenes” are so sophomoric they are seem funny, especially in the context of the usual quality of the show. They are embarrassing. This coming from a longtime film fan who loves Blue Velvet, Body Heat, etc.

    Who the Hell let the ghost of Ed Wood onto the set of Game of Thrones when the creators of the show were having lunch? I’m almost getting ready to expect Wood’s bongo drums playing in the background in the next tit scene!

    The only people who they aim for here are the cheerleader watching “she’s so hot!” schmucks who truly need a life. Or the folks who have not seen enough quality productions that contain nudity. HBO is clearly using this as a marketing tool. One scary line I read in a review speaks volumes here- “Come for the nudity…stay for the characters.” How frightening is that if you only care about bringing these books faithfully to the screen? Someone at HBO obviously loved the gigantic injection of the same types of scenes into the True Blood books and they are striking again here.

    Does it all go back to the Sopranos? At least they kept the strippers in context with the club and it worked. Tony had affairs left and right. It worked. HBO- please don’t sell your newest series so short. Do the same here as you did there.

    And don’t get me started on that “mustard smearing nipple shaving” scene. They are just giving ammo to the show’s haters who don’t realize the quality of the books. Again, embarrassing. HBO- have faith in the books and your cast. Amaze the viewers with the characters and story here, and use the nudity when it pops up in service to the story like any good production does. you are risking another telling description, “Come for the characters…leave because of the stupidity.”

    HBO Execs- Please see Mulholland Drive, Blue Velvet, Last Tango in Paris, Body Heat, and a little show called The Sopranos for better examples of how to “do it”. Steer clear of Porky’s.

  414. FeedtheTrolls
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    Agreed. It was a great episode; and it’s nice to read some positive comments from you! People would think it was the Rapture or something.

  415. Matt Celoria
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:
    Argilac the Arrogant,

    If youre talking about me… i would so tell it to their faces, only it would be much worse then what i wrote. If by some chance they read it i wish they take it as personally as possible.
    And then some.

    Simply because it deserves nothing less.

    For the clueless around here… and this really disappoints me in humanity in general… Ghost is supposed to be completely silent direwolf.
    Its his thing. He never whines, growls, never even howls – not even when he hears other wolves do it. You know – GHOST, get it? ahaha… my god…. im actually explaining this to people… im going to be sick…

    Throughout these seven episodes we had a serious lack of direwolves – which are an integral parts of the Stark children storylines – only because of general incompetence of the producers to dutifully prepare for and then bring about the execution of that element.

    He growled when Jon set him on Rast in the show… but i generally overlooked that even if it was retarded too. Because i understand by now that this is a cheap tv show that uses cheap gimmicks like that to get its points across.

    And now, in one scene where we do see Ghost in the machine – he barks.
    Barks like a dog he really is.

    Even more maddening is the fact that someone had to put in that sound into the audio – if they are shooting the sounds separately. Or someone couldnt erase it – if they are recording the sounds on the spot.

    I cannot really say which is the more retarded and insulting option.

    Dude, you’re so lame.

  416. aeh
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    It really bugs me that the Drogo speech has been totallyovershadowed by that horribly long and unecessary sex scene. I thought everyone would be discussing it. Maybe if he had a finger up the wine sellers arse…

  417. Matt Celoria
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    aeh,

    Agreed. One of the best scenes I’ve ever seen on any show, period.

  418. dizzy_34
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    So I caved, and watched this on my co-workers ipad over lunch. Best episode yet, holy crap! I got chills three times in this episode. The nights watch vows, Drogo’s speech, and the ending. I loved every second of this episode. This may have been discussed already but I did miss Jon going to Maester Amon about Sam. So I assume maybe Rast will be taking the place of Chett?

  419. Team Sansa
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    I’m not even sure if anyone is reading this thread anymore, but I think some of us would appreciate if the word “retarded” wasn’t used in certain contexts. Smiling Knight, I’m talking to you. Do a Control F and find the ways that you’re offensive…

  420. paulgude
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    aeh,

    TPFKA Thoros of Myr and I briefly talked about it, but I’ll chime in again with a HELL YES.

    Jason Momoa did an amazing job, and bonus points for it being in a language that for the most part didn’t exist until a couple of years ago.

  421. Dante
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    This is the most ridiculous episode-comment thread I have ever seen. I, too, would like to see more of the direwolves, but I understand that there were constraints behind the scenes that don’t make that possible. Whether or not they bark or not just seems…..nitpicky (not to mention the fact that the direwolves are fictional creatures to begin with, and thus it seems pointless to draw upon Earth-based biology for backup one way or another). In any event, Ghost’s silence was never a defining characteristic for me. I had to go back to the books to remind myself where that was even mentioned.

    I also understand that the show that we are watching is going to be different from the books that we have read, even if the overall direction of the story and characters is the same. Thus, I don’t take it as a personal insult to all that is good and holy when changes are made. The books remain as fantastic as ever, and the show is turning out to be quite enjoyable and gripping in its own way. I have seen quite enough of Ros, though. :)

  422. Pamoya
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    I was just re-watching episode 7–one of my favorite quotes is from Maester Luwin:

    Luwin: The lady is our guest.
    Theon: I thought she was our prisoner.
    Luwin: Are the two mutually exclusive, in your experience?

    Brought an evil grin to my face.

    Also I was thinking about the stag-skinning bit at the beginning. I really liked it and thought it set up Tywin Lannister’s character nicely (what with the symbolism and the gruesomeness) rather than being out of character. Others in this thread have pointed to Tywin’s disdain for Janos Slynt, son of a butcher, as meaning he wouldn’t want to get his hands dirty doing that type of work. But I think Tywin looks down on a butcher because he is a common tradesman, never mind the particular trade, and in Tywin’s eyes his noble Lannister blood makes him far superior.

  423. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Pamoya: I was just re-watching episode 7–one of my favorite quotes is from Maester Luwin:Luwin: The lady is our guest.Theon: I thought she was our prisoner.Luwin: Are the two mutually exclusive, in your experience?Brought an evil grin to my face..

    I’ve said it before but it bears repeating, Donald Sumpter as Maester Luwin is incredible in this, brings authenticity to every scene he’s in whether he’s being the dutiful counselor or dryly sarcastic teacher.

  424. paulgude
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Pamoya, Steven Swanson,

    I completely agree. I appreciate Luwin’s every line.

    As far as showing Tywin with the stag goes, it’s a twist on the somewhat standard trope Non Idle Rich:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonIdleRich

    I think it’s used here to good effect. He’s not helping anyone, but it is showing that he’s more than just a coin purse. This is a capable man, with exacting standards.

    I have noticed that most of the criticism leveled against the scene comes from comparing TV Tywin to Book Tywin. I currently find TV Tywin more likable than Book Tywin, similar to how Lloyd made TV Viserys more sympathetic. I’m behind this portrayal 100%.

  425. Felagund
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    This episode could have been the best…

    If not for two things

    Yes, Charles Dance _IS_ a good actor, I admit. But this is NOT Tywin Lannister (from the book)… I was soooo disappointed to see… :|
    First: Lord Tywin is clearly the type who wont get his hands dirty – in all meanings. The skinning of a stag is a good metaphor, I admit, but I am sure Tywin would leave that to his servants.
    Then, he LAUGHED! There were at least two parts when he snorted with laughter. TYWIN LANNISTER? :O Come ON!
    And third. He talks waaay too much. Tywin is one person who speaks only when it is needed and that’s why his voice has the power and authority it has. The Tywin from the books would surely not stop to explain Jaime in details why is it actually important to avenge the abduction of Tyrion.
    All in all, Charles Dance is good, but it is clearly not Tywin ‘motherf*kin’ Lannister I (and many others imagined…)
    And the second scene with Littlefinger and the whores.
    I would not go into details with the plain soft porn we get in our faces. I pretty much got used to the “obligatory sex scene” in every episode…
    But to see Littlefinger, (who is clearly a man who loves to keep his secrets and motivations to himself) explaining his most determinative memories to a random trainee whore (Ros), I was like: WOT? (Not to mention he doesn’t really say anything that we could not have picked up from the past episodes already…) Why on Earth would he do such an amateurism?
    So it was quite confusing for me…

    But I must admit, that all the rest of the episode was just pure awesomeness and badassery. Beautiful dramatic scenes, and the scene at the end… Wow… I was speechless then… (And the Night’s Watch Oath is still sooooooooo cool! :O)
    All in all, a great episode (8,5/10, so to say :)), too bad for the first two scenes (lucky for me they were the first, so that I got overwhelmed with the rest afterwards :D)

  426. Art Dude
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Personal rating…Episode 7, 6, 5, 1, 3, 2, 4. Not that Ep 4 was bad. It was still way better than most TV, while 7 was knock it out of the ballpark great (no issue with the LF scene, and really, there was a bark?) Of course, it’s the setup in the first (and thus slower) 1/2 of the season that makes the second 1/2 so thrilling.

  427. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Felagund: This episode could have been the best…If not for two thingsYes, Charles Dance _IS_ a good actor, I admit. But this is NOT Tywin Lannister (from the book)… I was soooo disappointed to see… First: Lord Tywin is clearly the type who wont get his hands dirty – in all meanings. The skinning of a stag is a good metaphor, I admit, but I am sure Tywin would leave that to his servants.Then, he LAUGHED! There were at least two parts when he snorted with laughter. TYWIN LANNISTER? :O Come ON!And third. He talks waaay too much. Tywin is one person who speaks only when it is needed and that’s why his voice has the power and authority it has. The Tywin from the books would surely not stop to explain Jaime in details why is it actually important to avenge the abduction of Tyrion.All in all, Charles Dance is good, but it is clearly not Tywin ‘motherf*kin’ Lannister I (and many others imagined…)And the second scene with Littlefinger and the whores.I would not go into details with the plain soft porn we get in our faces. I pretty much got used to the “obligatory sex scene” in every episode…But to see Littlefinger, (who is clearly a man who loves to keep his secrets and motivations to himself) explaining his most determinative memories to a random trainee whore (Ros), I was like: WOT? (Not to mention he doesn’t really say anything that we could not have picked up from the past episodes already…) Why on Earth would he do such an amateurism?So it was quite confusing for me…But I must admit, that all the rest of the episode was just pure awesomeness and badassery. Beautiful dramatic scenes, and the scene at the end… Wow… I was speechless then… (And the Night’s Watch Oath is still sooooooooo cool! :O)All in all, a great episode (8,5/10, so to say ), too bad for the first two scenes (lucky for me they were the first, so that I got overwhelmed with the rest afterwards )

    Regarding Tywin, keep in mind that we’ve never seen him interact with Jaime, who is probably the most important person in the world to him as the one who can carry on the Lannister name. I imagine he and Jaime in private would be very different than Tywin in public.

    That said, I see some of your (and others’ ) points about this Tywin being slightly different in feel. But personally I don’t care, I thought he came off as an incredible badass in his manner, and that’s good enough for me. I can’t wait to see newbies’ reactions to him with this and future appearances.

  428. Mike Chair
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Figuring Tywin would act differently when alone with Jamie is very astute.

    As far as him skinning his own stag, I totally buy that and here’s why. I know people like that. Super rich guys who think they’re badass Renaissance men. They’ve got four stall garages full of tools. They fix their own cars even though they can afford a mechanic, nay, a new car. They do their own landscaping and carpentry because the peasant laborers wouldn’t get it right. You can’t go near their grills at the BBQs because they’re cooking. I bet Dick Cheney dresses his own kill (be it quail, lawyers or otherwise). It doesn’t make them da Vincies or Franklins. It makes them pompous pricks who confuse wealth with enlightenment. Screw those guys and screw Tywin Lannister!

  429. Felagund
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Well, he knows (and is surely highly annoyed by the fact) that Jaime clearly can’t pass on the name, being a Kingsguard knight ;)

    I think it is the greatest irony of the books is that the Heir to Casterly Rock is actually Tyrion :D

  430. Rocio_Valcarcel
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 6:55 pm | Permalink
  431. Felagund
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    You may have a point on that one, though…

    (however, I do not really imagine Tywin like that)

  432. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Felagund: Steven Swanson, Well, he knows (and is surely highly annoyed by the fact) that Jaime clearly can’t pass on the name, being a Kingsguard knight I think it is the greatest irony of the books is that the Heir to Casterly Rock is actually Tyrion

    Tywin doesn’t give a shit about that, as far as he’s concerned Jaime should drop that Kingsguard crap and claim his true mantle as a Lannister. He even mentions that in their conversation, that Jaime is better than a mere bodyguard. A sacred oath doesn’t mean dick to Tywin Lannister.

  433. Felagund
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Too bad Jaime doesn’t really want to commit a second oathbreaking :)

  434. Carrie Meathrell
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Pamoya: I was just re-watching episode 7–one of my favorite quotes is from Maester Luwin:

    Luwin: The lady is our guest.
    Theon: I thought she was our prisoner.
    Luwin: Are the two mutually exclusive, in your experience?

    I was rewatching today as well, and I agree. Maester Luwin is such a troll when it comes to Theon (also the “failed rebellions” line in Ep 5)! So many lulz.

    But I also just reread ACoK, and I must say, D&D are setting up Theon’s arc in Season 2 very well — the sack of Winterfell is going to be VERY emotional, esp. Luwin’s death. I’m a little weepy just thinking about it.

    I’ve always HATED the Greyjoy subplots in the books (Drowned God? borrrrrrrrrrrrrinnnnng evangelist), but Alfie Allen is actually making me care about Theon and making me look forward to what will happen in season two. I mean, Theon is still an asswipe, but once Robb leaves Winterfell to Bran in S2…well, you know.

  435. Knurk
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Rocio_Valcarcel,

    that’s really unnecessary. People who want to watch it illegaly know their own ways to find it, please don’t promote it (and the crappy websites it’s streamed on) here on this website.

  436. Elena Amici
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    best episode so far. i’d rather pretend that LF & Roz scene is just a product of my immagination

  437. Mirax
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe you guys are discussing the wrong sex scandal in the Littlefinger scene!!! Sure, the girl on girl action appeared more gratuitous, but that’s not the important part. Am I the only one that heard Littlefinger say he was a virgin?! “I’m saving myself for another” and then he goes on to say he’s been in love with her most of his life.” I realize that he doesn’t specifically say he has never had sex before, but his initial comment just seems to scream it at me.

    I loved the scenes at the Wall. I think Jon came off as legitimately angry and upset about what he saw as petty revenge that would affect his whole life, until put into perspective by Pyp. I like the building of the friendships between Jon and his new brothers. It comes off as bleak, but almost a positive when compared to King’s Landing.

    My bf doesn’t know what to think about Jorah. On the one hand, he just got a royal pardon for telling the King that she was pregnant and that’s bullshit. On the other hand, the King tried to cancel it on his deathbed and Jorah did just save her from being poisoned. It’s a conundrum.

    I agree that Sansa acted seemingly out of character when she was being rude to her Septa. However, I think it is used to further accentuate her disconnect from the North and her happiness at being in the South. She doesn’t like having her new styles criticized because it seems to lessen her accomplishment of fitting in where she has always wanted to belong. Also, it makes it just that much more believable that she wants to stay. People were complaining just a couple of episodes ago that Sansa didn’t seem like she really enjoyed King’s Landing and no one would understand why she would go to the Queen. Her little scene with the Septa shows exactly how she feels about KL and just how far removed she is now from the North.

    On to Renly and Ned. Ned is an idiot! Renly was at first only suggesting what Ned already knew needed to be done, at the very least. Secure Joffrey. Separate him from his mother and ensure that you have control of the throne in KL. After that, Ned could have presented his evidence as he saw fit. He could have just accepted Renly’s help and then moved on with his plan after things were safer. Why, Ned, why? It was only when Ned assumed that Renly meant to completely dethrone Joffrey and give Stannis the crown rather than just gain control of Joffrey, did Renly mention being a better King. I think it was well played.

    I’m very tired and also very afraid that my post is nothing more than incoherent ramblings, so I’ll retire for the night. Good night, all.

  438. hvacigar
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Best episode thus far. Powerful aspects of the book translated well to the screen, particularly the play between Ned and Cersei. The parts with Sam and Jon came off great as well. Littlefinger is….well amazing in his part. The added scenes were also fantastic. Gimme more…

  439. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 25, 2011 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Mirax,

    Storm of Swords spoiler, but Littlefinger pretty definitely had sex with Lysa post-duel as she was taking care of him, and she most likely got pregnant and had to drink a tea to induce abortion.

  440. Joseph
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    This whole Littlefinger debate, in my opinion, has gotten a little out of hand. He runs a whore house, it seems only natural that he would instruct them on how to deceive a man – which of course is the central theme of this episode. Not only does this set up and forshadow future events with Ned, he reveals alot about himself….it brings to mind the season finale (1) of Deadwood, where Al Swearenjon confesses his upbring while he’s getting a blowjob. It fits with his character, I buy it.

    Also, I think Drogo’s character has been overshadowed by these Ghost barking and LF debates…to me this is the first episode where Drogo actually becomes three dimensional. Such as in the first scene where Danerys discusses crossing to Westeros and he gently rebukes it, and gives her a little nudge with his head. And then, of course, is the badass finale where he delivers that great speech. I’m glad they threw in “Moon of my Life” as well. Episodes 6 and 7 should be commended for humanizing Drogo and the whole Dothraki culture, in my opinion.

    Let’s just celebrate getting a fantastic adaptation of a great novel – unfiltered and bold.

  441. Caedes
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    You, my friend, are a wise and a scholar.

  442. Jon
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    If Lord Tywin gets a phrase wrong, do they bring another deer so they can start all over again?

    People have been discussing if wolves can bark or not (Wikipedia says they can), but there is one wolf in the series that does not bark, doesn’t even make a sound: Ghost. So I think it is a mistake to have him run into the Hauted Forest barking when Jon and Sam are on their way to take their vows. The barking should have been removed when it was edited.

  443. Mirax
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    That’s kinda my point. I was so tired last night I forgot to mention that’s the reason I find his statement so very odd. I’m probably reading too much into it, but typically when someone says that they are saving themselves, that means they aren’t having sex with anyone else at all. So the “saving myself” plus the “in love with her for most of my life” equaled “i’m a virgin” to me. If that’s true, then as you stated, future plot-lines would need a lot of re-working. If that wasn’t the intention, then my poor brain would’ve preferred a different line, though I have no idea what would’ve worked as a “no” and a lead in to his motivation. Of course, I’m also in the group that would have preferred to leave his motivations a bit more ambiguous. I enjoyed knowing that he was a treacherous, scheming jack-hole whose motivations we were kept in the dark. I can understand that this can be viewed in the same light as the Loras/Renly relationship. We aren’t limited to the POV structure so we can learn more about this aspect rather than needing to wait for other characters to know it, but while I think Loras/Renly gain a lot of characterization by adding their scene, I think Littlefinger has been a large enough presence so far that we don’t necessarily need that extra insight.

  444. purplejilly
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Joseph,
    That episode was the one episode I saw of Deadwood, when he’s monologuing and alternately screaming at the girl to pay attention to his BJ she is giving him, and it turned me off Deadwood right then and there.

    I thought “This is ridiculous. I am not watching one more minute of this crap”. I haven’t watched ep 7 yet due to hbo-no-go but if they start moving the way of Deadwood I am going to seriously reconsider spending any more time on the show. What I’ve read of Ep 7 doesn’t look promising..

  445. digtastik
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    I saw the scene last night. Way over-hyped. Also, have any of you complaining that the sex was so distracting given any thought to that being a whore’s job? LF is training two whores on how to be a distraction and, based on many reactions to the scene, I’d say perhaps they got it right.

    *Just saw Joseph’s post which says about the same thing I just wrote. Just shows I’m not alone on that particular train of thought.*

  446. Blackfish Blues
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    I’d been spoiled about Roz’s role in E7. I have a growing dislike for her treatment in the show, for reasons I wrote in the E6 spoiler thread; however discussing her can bring out some very interesting insights – I talked about it with a Twitter buddy who maybe is here (hi Sue) and though we disagreed, I got lots of food for thought.

    Anyway I watched E7 with enormous prejudices. I found the soft-porn scene boring and distracting (I couldn’t hear LF over the squeals), but the rest was AWESOME. This cast is stellar – Tywin, Barristan and Jorah convey a Ned-like level of intensity with the twitch of an eye. The younger cast is adorable, esp. Jon and Sam. I burst into tears during the Night Watch vow – despite knowing it almost by heart, I didn’t even notice the missing lines, it was all in the way they said it, and the hugs! I rarely cry during movies or TV shows, and never during GOT until now.

    Then I come here to share the love and I find myself INSULTED AND OFFENDED like the show never did; not personally, of course, but lumped together with all those who did not like the porn scene (and the R/L scene), and called prudish, homophobic, repressed – *gasp* American!

    I’m European, and I find a certain hypocrisy in saying “I like sex scenes, look how progressive I am, how high-minded, how tolerant, EXCEPT OF COURSE THAT I DESPISE AMERICANS.” Is it just me, or some people’s “tolerance” has holes?

    I agree with those who are upset with the turn these discussions are taking. It’s not just TSK vs. everybody else, it’s a growing general tendency to demean contrary opinions, instead of turning them in an occasion of learning.

    There was so much awesomeness in E7, and here we are insulting each other about whether Roz moaned too loud. Is this what HBO wants us to discuss? What a pity.

    I’m so fed up with this thing that I keep misreading the other bone of contemption as Whores don’t bark.

  447. James
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    This is exactly my issue with the Littlefinger brothel scene. Doesn’t matter what your opinion about it is you can’t deny that it is a huge distraction to an otherwise fantastic episode. When it airs on Sunday there will be even more discussion about it. People should be be talking about all the great scenes in this episode but instead its all about the gratuitous 4-5min lesbian porn that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss felt the need to add to the best episode yet. As someone already said they already established a standard for the sex in Game of Thrones so I don’t know why the felt the need to put such an over the top scene like that in. I’m sure the writers knew that it was going to surprise a lot of viewers but most not in a good way. Its just a unnecessary scene that has become a huge distraction. I know its unlikely but I’m still hoping they remove it before this Sunday or at least edit it.

  448. Ed
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    Joseph,

    I thought “This is ridiculous.I am not watching one more minute of this crap”.I haven’t watched ep 7 yet due to hbo-no-go but if they start moving the way of Deadwood I am going to seriously reconsider spending any more time on the show.What I’ve read of Ep 7 doesn’t look promising..

    Yeah, I hear ya. Well, seeya.

  449. Ed
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Now this is just downright silly. We’ve gone from complaining and whining about scenes, to hoping that the producers remove them? Sigh… (Don’t know if I’ve ever heard of such a thing).

    James, I respect your opinion that you didn’t like the scene. I DID happen to like it. So did some others (their posts are above). Why don’t you respect the product offered, knowing that different parts appeal to different people, and that not all parts will appeal to everybody. Or, as an analogy, do you demand that McDonalds remove certain menu items cause YOU don’t like them?

    James:

    I know its unlikely but I’m still hoping they remove it before this Sunday or at least edit it.

  450. darcey
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Completely agree with you. BookSansa would never have been that rude with Septa. If they’re trying to make me dislike Sansa more, they’re doing a good job. In the books Sansa irritated the hell out of me but I mostly felt sorry for her. HBOSansa I just want to slap the b!tch.

  451. aeh
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    James,

    I also hope that it is edited or removed. I aint no prude and have no problem with nudity or even sex scenes but it went on too long, was way too graphic and totally removed you from the rest of the episode. I didn’t even notice that Littlefinger was saying anything! Cut it down or cut it out so I can get on with the rest of the episode.

  452. aeh
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    digtastik,

    Yeah, granted, but its not soft porn hour on Movies 24!! It is the length of the scene that bothers me.

  453. Mirax
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    aeh,

    I have to agree with Ed on this one. The Littlefinger/brothel scene is not nearly controversial enough to be edited or completely tossed out. I think that sort of thing only happens if something is being screened for viewer approval before it is released to the public. (Though I could be wrong, I don’t work in any sort of tv/movie profession.) The episode may not have aired on TV yet, but I’m pretty sure that having it on HBOGo is considered the same way.

  454. AlwaysFan
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    James,

    You obviously never watched HBO’s Tell Me You Love Me…

  455. Wolf of Dorne
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    If the girls just kept it lower in volume I probably wouldn’t have mind. I found them distracting to the importance of Littlefinger’s dialogue.

    This. I didn’t care about sex (I came to accept the “Sex Scene for Free of the Week” long ago) or the lenght of the scene, but had the girls been a bit quieter I’d have enjoyed it more. Littlefinger’s monologue is quite cool and shows a side of the character non-readers would have had some difficulties to learn (at least this early in the series), but the ladies’ loud moaning overshadowed it. Pity.

    WOOF WOOF!

    Ghost whined the very first moment we met him back on episode 1, so why all the nitpicking now at episode 7? Sure, I’d prefer HBO had silenced its barking, but it seems such a small detail compared to the awesomess GoT has shown in every episode so far that I can let it pass.

    Sheeez, guys. Relax. You’ll live longer. :)

  456. Remy
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    I wished Littlefinger had shut his mouth during that scene but If I want to watch a steamy lady-boning scene, I’ll stick with the L word or Lip service.

  457. Lex
    Posted May 26, 2011 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Just jumping in here to say I can’t believe there’s nearly 500 comments on an episode that hasn’t technically aired yet! I’ll be back in 3 or 4 days. :)

  458. Mirax
    Posted May 27, 2011 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    I’m just curious as to what portion of us were attempting to not watch the episode early. :D

  459. Pepi
    Posted May 27, 2011 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    I’m quite sure, I saw Joseph Campo, aswell.

  460. aeh
    Posted May 27, 2011 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Mirax,

    So funny. I lasted about 2 days.

  461. A Bear_A Bear
    Posted May 27, 2011 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    TPFKA Thoros of Myr: Jason Momoa famously having danced the haka at his casting call, anybody else catch on to the haka touches in his boast-oath?

    Yes, I did! :D I thought that was a great scene, in fact it made me sorry thaat Drogo isn’t going to survive and invade the Seven Kingdoms like he vowed to – seriously, what were you thinking, GRRM?! :D

  462. paulgude
    Posted May 28, 2011 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    coltaine777,

    This is actually kind of a big deal.

    If that’s Shae, the implication is that this “camp follower” ultimately reports back to Littlefinger. A further implication, especially given his instructions in this scene, is that he’s training her, perhaps even specifically sent her to get close to Tyrion. If that is actually the case, it means that he ended up screwing the Lannisters as much as the Starks, considering how that all turned out.

  463. jaybe
    Posted May 28, 2011 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Amby,

    He is THE lion. And lions eat stags.

    About Renly… I think he has HIS “Queen of Thornes” “thorn” stick into his ear. That’s why he want’s to be kong. It has nothing to do about Joff.

  1. [...] be updating this post with a few thoughts on the episode itself as well as some reflections on how the open discussion that has been opened over at Winter is Coming unfolds – I’m especially curious to see how many book readers wade into the discussion [...]


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