Episode 7 – You Win or You Die – Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

Cersei in courtyard

Episode 7 of Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die, has just aired. Wow. Another fantastic episode. What did everyone else think? Discuss the show amongst yourselves below. I’ll be back with a full recap along with my thoughts and reactions as soon as possible!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the first book. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. The new viewer recap and discussion thread can be found here.

The episode opens on Tywin’s camp. And right off the bat we meet the man himself, Tywin Lannister. He is skinning a stag (a symbolism not lost on me) and putting Jaime in his place. Charles Dance so captures Tywin’s commanding air that I don’t even mind his lack of mutton chops. The normally unflappable and cocksure Jaime is reduced to an uncertain and timid fool in his presence. Tywin instructs him to ride to Riverrun and enact vengeance on the Tully’s, because a Lannister always pays his debts.

Back at King’s Landing, where Ned has summoned Cersei to the courtyard where he reveals what he knows. Cersei does not seem phased. In fact, she admits outright that she is glad that her children are Jaime’s and not Robert’s. Some of Lena Headey’s best work as Cersei is in the this scene. Ned cautions her to flee King’s Landing before the King returns from his hunt. Cersei does not take Ned’s advice. “When you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. There is no middle ground.” Cersei is playing to win.

Ah yes… Littlefinger and his whores. The scene did go on far too long, so I won’t spend much time on it here. I will say that I don’t necessarily find it out of character for Littlefinger to share this info with his whores. It’s not he’s telling them his plans and machinations. He’s relating a story from his past, one that is pretty well known amongst court anyway. And I also love his response to Ros’ question about what it is that he wants. “Oh, everything, my dear. Everything there is.”

Next is time for our brief, weekly look at the goings-on at Winterfell. Here we see Theon acting like a smug prick, bossing around someone who he actually can boss around. I love Luwin’s smackdown of him when he calls Osha a prisoner and not a guest. “Are the two mutually exclusive in your experience?” Osha then proceeds to creep Luwin (and me) out. “They was sleeping and they ain’t sleeping no more.”

After a two-week absence, we finally are back at the Wall where Jon and Sam are standing watch when they spy a rider. Only it’s not a rider, just a horse. Benjen’s horse. But where is Benjen?

King’s Landing now, where Renly delivers the bad news to Ned, the King has been attacked by a boar and is dying. Ned goes to his bedside, to find Robert speaking with Joffrey about how he should have been a better father. Even though Robert is a shitty father and a worse husband, I still feel bad that he has been cuckolded and led to believe this boy is his son and sad that he is disappointed he didn’t spend more time with him. If only he knew…. Ned has the decency not to tell him. Addy is great in his final scene, mixing humor with heart as he appoints Ned regent until Joffrey comes of age. Ned slyly writes “rightful heir” instead. Not that it will matter anyway. But I’m getting ahead of myself…

Across the Narrow Sea, Dany is braiding her husband’s hair and telling him of the Iron Throne. Drogo says a khal doesn’t need a throne to sit on, just a horse. Drogo and Daenerys (Daenogo? Dronerys?) may have gotten off to a rocky start but is now one of the few tender and loving relationships in the show.

Dany heads to the marketplace accompanied by Jorah and her handmaidens. After assuring the khaleesi that Drogo will eventually help her win back the throne, Jorah excuses himself to go retrieve a message; in this case, a royal pardon. Dany encounters a wine merchant that insists on gifting her a cask of (poisoned) wine from the Arbor. Jorah seems to have second thoughts about his role in what is about to transpire and steps in to save Dany’s life. The wine merchant flees only to be brought to justice by the long arm of Rakharo’s whip.

Back at the Wall, Lord Commander Mormont is delivering his graduation speech to the new recruits about to be sworn in as men of the Night’s Watch. He gives them their assignments and Jon is shocked to hear he has been assigned to the Stewards and not the Rangers. He goes all emo on poor old Maester Aemon, who is much less whiny here than when we last saw him. Sam eventually explains to him what is happening. He has been handpicked by Mormont to be groomed as the next Lord Commander.

To King’s Landing, where Renly makes Ned an offer he must refuse. Stupid Ned and his honor. He summons Littlefinger to his quarters where Petyr explains to Ned that all the power is his, he just needs to “reach out and take it.” Again Ned’s honor gets in the way. “Well why did you bring me here Lord Stark? Not for my wisdom, clearly.” Ned needs Littlefinger to ensure that the Gold Cloaks will be on his side. Gillen is so good, you can almost see the plans for his double-crossing take shape in the Machiavellian smile he gives Ned.

To the Wall now, beyond the Wall actually, where Jon and Sam go to say their vows in front of a heart tree. (Which looks amazing by the way.) The vows sound as epic on screen as one would hope. Everyone is smiles and bro hugs, until Ghost finds a severed hand in the woods. Oh, and Ghost barking? Despite hearing about it all week, I didn’t even notice it. That is how much I don’t care.

Speaking of vows, back at Vaes Dothrak, Drogo makes a vow of his own. He vows that he will cross the Narrow Sea and take back the Iron Throne, for his wife and for his unborn son. An epic performance by Jason Momoa. Just an outstanding job learning Dothraki and then putting that much emotion behind it. I got chills.

And finally, in King’s Landing, Ned is summoned to the throne room by King Joffrey. Robert is dead. Littlefinger assures him he has the support of the Gold Cloaks as he goes to faceoff against Cersei and her son. Joffrey has wasted no time acted like a pompous little shit. Ned shows them Robert’s decree and Cersei tears it up, much to Ned’s (and Barristan’s) chagrin. No matter, Ned thinks, I still have the Gold Cloaks. He orders them to seize Joffrey and Cersei. Unfortunately, things don’t go exactly to plan. The Gold Cloaks turn on Ned, killing his men (spear through the chest seems to be the death of choice for Stark guardsmen these days). Littlefinger steps behind Ned and puts a knife to his throat. “I did warn you not to trust me.”

And that is where this week’s episode ends. Another fantastic episode. I know you nitpickers had a field day over some of the stuff in this episode, but I thought all the important scenes were spot on. Like I said, Tywin’s introduction was perfect. Ned and Cersei’s confrontation was great, well-acted by both Headey and Bean. Addy’s final scene was a good one. Drogo’s speech gave me chills. And the scene in the throne room was epic in the way it just twisted and turned. I can’t wait until next week.


783 Comments

  1. Qthulhu
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    I got better!

  2. Trollsbane
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    I’ll repeat myself from last weeks HBO Go section.

    “I always wanted to be a wizard”

    Brilliant!

    In before Ghost barking and sexposition take hold of the thread. ;)

  3. Mike Chair
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Barkgate

    Should direwolves bark?

    Four books, six direwolves, over 3,000 pages and not one bark.

    I’m not asking whether wolves or even direwolves can bark. Rather, the discussion should be whether direwolves should bark. Is it consistent with what we know about direwolves? They’re supposed to be extra large, extra fierce, prehistoric, badass canines on steroids.

    What if Tyrion suddenly spoke in a New Jersey accent? Dinklage could. He shouldn’t. What if Hodor suddenly waxed all Scarecrow with a brain? “The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side.” It would be out of character.

    Tyrion ain’t from Joisey, Hodor doesn’t know geometry, and direwolves shouldn’t bark.

  4. Jim Higgitt
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Did everyone enjoy the show?

    My take on Barkgate is less about a direwolf barking and more about Ghost, who never makes a sound in the books, doing so in the show.

    I’m not too concerned really, but I thought that this would upset people more than the noise itself. Oh well, just me then.

  5. Deborah
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Finally my non-reader husband gets excited! He did not see that coming. I know people are going to be upset with the Roz scene and the fact that Ghost barked (gasp) but I loved the episode. The whole skinning scene grossed me out too so a well rounded episode in my opinion.

  6. maxlongstreet
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Ugghh. Worst episode yet by far. Particularly bad on the heels of the best episode. Full of made-up scenes like those with Tywin and Petyr where the characters’ motivations are awkwardly laid out for slow viewers. Littlefinger confiding in a couple of whores? Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.

    I have a tough road to hoe getting my wife to watch going forward, since she basically has said she’s not interested in watching a show so lame and obvious.

  7. Deborah
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    P>In before Ghost barking and sexposition take hold of the thread.

    Yep. I have given myself a 20 minute limit this week as I am sure it will get mired in Barkgate.

  8. Jim Higgitt
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Right-angled triangle.

  9. Trollsbane
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    I could care less about direwolves barking, but that’s twice now that the little wolfy that lost his voice has been heard. (The first when Jon found him) But meh, whatever.

    I’m very anxious to see the next episode since GRRM wrote it. And this episode was awesome!

  10. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet:
    Ugghh. Worst episode yet by far. Particularly bad on the heels of the best episode. Full of made-up scenes like those with Tywin and Petyr where the characters’ motivations are awkwardly laid out for slow viewers. Littlefinger confiding in a couple of whores? Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.

    I have a tough road to hoe getting my wife to watch going forward, since she basically has said she’s not interested in watching a show so lame and obvious.

    I thought the confiding in the whores scene was too long just to explain his obcession with Cat. But doesn’t he put the knife to Ned’s throat in the book? I”m pretty sure he does.

  11. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet,

    Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat?

    That happened in the book too.

  12. Phantomwriter05
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    I liked it alot …

    I mean it was like watching Roman Holiday.

    You know what’s going to happen but each time you hope that it doesn’t end in betrayal.

    My one problem is that they really downplay Cersei and Neds relationship.

    In the book, when Ned and Cersei talk Ned is tender to her. He really wants to grant her mercy and save her and the childrens life. Which is important because Cersei ends up sparring him in the Black cells in their unseen conversation.

    I just don’t understand the need to make Ned and Cersei so atagonistic. They never hated one another. Ned hated Jaime, but that was it.

    *Sigh*

    I just went on a nerd rant …

    Either way other than the Cersei and Ned misreputation I really loved the episode.

    And can’t wait for Martin’s episode.

    There is so much great stuff in it.

    I’m stoked!

  13. cardus
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet:
    Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on.

    You mean _exactly_ like in the book? lol

  14. Trollsbane
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet: so lame and obvious.

    Now that is something I’ve yet to hear from anyone.

  15. Mike Chair
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Jim Higgitt: Mike Chair,

    Right-angled triangle.

    I pulled the quote from imdb:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032138/quotes

  16. greenie88
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet:
    Ugghh. Worst episode yet by far. Particularly bad on the heels of the best episode. Full of made-up scenes like those with Tywin and Petyr where the characters’ motivations are awkwardly laid out for slow viewers. Littlefinger confiding in a couple of whores? Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.

    I have a tough road to hoe getting my wife to watch going forward, since she basically has said she’s not interested in watching a show so lame and obvious.

    Last two episodes have been more close to the books than the previous ones. So I guess you don’t like GRRM’s story since it’s so lame and obvious.

    PS–You need to go back and reread AGOT..particulary a certain dramatic event that took place in the throne room that involved the City Watch, Lannister guards, Cersei, Joffrey, Varys, Petyr..and yes..a dagger.

  17. Jim Ticka
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Honestly, how does the barking matter AT ALL? By the Seven.

    + Charles Dance may not have the mutton chops but he has the acting chops. Can’t wait for him to get more time on screen.

    + Momoa killed that speech. So much energy, actually makes me excited for Conan. The director or acting coach or whoever they have helping these actors must be great because everyone is speaking a made up language like they actually speak it.

    +Oh, Littlefinger. Why do I like you?

    - Cersei has that wig on again. Ugh.

    -Joffrey has that face on again. Ugh.

    - Lets pull back on the sexpostion now, come on.

    Favorite episode so far.

  18. Steve the Pirate
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Another brilliant episode. I think the only legitimate quibble about Littlefinger’s scene with Ros and the other hooker is that why would he speak so freely with anyone, even an employee. As for the sex, well there’s a metaphorical bent about fucking, and the length of the scene that bothers some- well it’s four minutes long. Really, I think an adult should have enough of an attention span for that.
    I reread ACoK and ASoS and I didn’t remember Ghost wasn’t supposed to be bark. Who gives a crap, really. It doesn’t change the story.
    Loved all the NW stuff tonight.
    Gillen was amazing and I couldn’t help but laugh and almost cheer for him in the end. That man works hard to pull off his evil machinations, heh.

  19. Dasein
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Deborah,

    The skinning scene is possibly the best character introduction I’ve ever witnessed. Tywin is of a lost breed, powerful, cunning, ruthless, and yet field dressing his own Stag. Perfect!

  20. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Jim Ticka:
    + Charles Dance may not have the mutton chops but he has the acting chops. Can’t wait for him to get more time on screen.

    + Momoa killed that speech. So much energy, actually makes me excited for Conan. The director or acting coach or whoever they have helping these actors must be great because everyone is speaking a made up language like they actually speak it.

    Yes to Charles and Jason. That speech was amazing. It actually made me finally say, wow, I’m glad he got the part. Up until that he, as Drogo, had almost no acting skills required.

  21. Lossoth
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    best line:

    “titles titles….”

    Credit is due to Mark Addy for inserting humor into an incredibly somber moment.

  22. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate:
    Another brilliant episode. I think the only legitimate quibble about Littlefinger’s scene with Ros and the other hooker is that why would he speak so freely with anyone, even an employee. As for the sex, well there’s a metaphorical bent about fucking, and the length of the scene that bothers some- well it’s four minutes long. Really, I think an adult should have enough of an attention span for that.

    My main issue is not that it was SsOOOO long i lost interest. I definitely didn’t “lose interest” hyuk hyuk. It was just 3 minutes of screen time that could have gone to putting in something else from the book that would have been more awesome to see than two actresses act as whores fingering each other.

  23. David The Grey
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    I was impressed with Tywin’s skinning job! Happy to see Ghost! And happy that the ending got a “fuck!” out of my non-reader wife, followed shortly by “She’s a bitch!” The previews for next week had my wife at the edge of her seat. I think she’s hooked… she has no clue what she is in for.

    I thought the sexposition was tacky. Both because it’s been done so often now, but also because Littlefinger’s lines didn’t interest me as much as either Viserys’ or Greyjoy’s in their respective scenes. Don’t know if it’s because of the actor’s delivery or what have you… but it felt tacky to me. That’s my only nit… and it’s a very small one, I am still immensely satisfied with the episode and the show itself.

    Can’t wait until next week! And woo hoo, now I can go listen to the rest of Larry’s review! :-)

  24. Deborah
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Dasein,

    Totally agree with you. However, as a meat eater who would never actually kill her own dinner and won’t eat anything with a face… I was grossed out. But it was a good feeling!

  25. Emma
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    “I always wanted to be a wizard.”

    As did I, Sam.
    As did I.

  26. Andrew Gavin
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    With the setup of the core characters and relationships established in the first four episodes, the momentum of events in Episode 5-7 just continues to pick up pace. I wrote up a full plot recap and review of ep 7 here.

  27. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Ned and Cersei’s scene was not inappropriate and reflects the book accurately in my view (albeit it leaves out the part where Cersei offers her body to him in order to pay for his silence with her flesh).

    I loved Tywin and Jaime. Dance IS Tywin Lannister and is the BBEG of the show. I loved every moment of that scene.

    It’s been a week since I first watched Ep 7. Bring on Ep 8!!

  28. Jessica C.
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Watching this epsisode was so painful. Ned and his honor, I just wanted to smack some sense into him.

    The only thing missing was that Jon/Aemon scene where he talks about the watch needing every man including ones like Sam. But the little that we got of Aemon made me very happy. I love him so much.

    and how about that preview for episode 8 :o

    I wish it was next Sunday already.

  29. furrever
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I thought it was a great episode. This series hasn’t disappointed yet. Is it perfect? Of course not. But I never expected that it would be as it’s an ADAPTATION.

    I did think the sex was WAY over the top this episode. I liked Petyr’s monologue however, and I think it served the purpose of explaining why he betrayed Ned (i.e. jealousy).

    As for the bark, it didn’t really even phase me until I read the complaints here. Let’s face it, the direwolves are going to have to be more dog-like in the television series, so this didn’t seem all that out of place to me.

  30. greenie88
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Phantomwriter05:
    I liked it alot …

    I mean it was like watching Roman Holiday.

    You know what’s going to happen but each time you hope that it doesn’t end in betrayal.

    My one problem is that they really downplay Cersei and Neds relationship.

    In the book, when Ned and Cersei talk Ned is tender to her. He really wants to grant her mercy and save her and the childrens life. Which is important because Cersei ends up sparring him in the Black cells in their unseen conversation.

    I just don’t understand the need to make Ned and Cersei so atagonistic. They never hated one another. Ned hated Jaime, but that was it.

    *Sigh*

    I just went on a nerd rant …

    Either way other than the Cersei and Ned misreputation I really loved the episode.

    And can’t wait for Martin’s episode.

    There is so much great stuff in it.

    I’m stoked!

    Ned most certainly did NOT like Cersei! He warned Cersei because he didn’t want children to be killed who were guilty of nothing but having the wrong father. And Cersei did not “spare” Ned. It was a political decision as killing him would firmly put the North in war with the crown, and she was more worried about Stannis and Renly. At this point, the Lannisters didn’t have any allies. The Vale was aloof. Dorne hated Lannisters. Tyrell was backing Renly. The Stormlands were split between Renly and Stannis. Cersei knew she was in big trouble so was scrambling for a way to diffuse the North situation–including still allowing Joffery to marry Sansa if it came to that.

  31. LordAJ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet,

    “Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.”

    You know, that actually happens in the book…

    “As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned’s dagger from its sheath and shoved it up uner his chin. His smile was apologetic. “I did warn you not to trust me, you know.”

  32. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    LordAJ:
    maxlongstreet,

    “Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.”

    You know, that actually happens in the book…

    “As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned’s dagger from its sheath and shoved it up uner his chin. His smile was apologetic. “I did warn you not to trust me, you know.”

    Thanks for find the exact text.

    You know when I first read AGoT I thought Petyr killed Ned in that scene.
    I was completely shocked, then when he turned up in the cell I was so relieved.
    and then….well you know.

  33. Phantomwriter05
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I agree …

    Dance completely disappears into the character.

    He plays a character that you can understand why Jaime and Cersei (Two of the most cutthroat people in the series) fear him so much.

    The man is amazing to watch.

    I can’t wait to see Charles Dance and Richard Madden become foils against one another these next couple of years.

  34. Tysnow
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Sexposition scene waaaaayyyyyyy tooo looonnnng, final scene in throne room way2short, that last scene should have been more epic at the end and gory 2 boot (wanted to see the guy fall in 2 pieces after Hound cut him in half, etc (expected this scene to be HBO graphic), dissappointed.
    Dany, Drogo scenes were the best of this episode, then Wall (though story is lacking a bit) should have cut the Ros scene by 2/3, give half of it to Wall and the other half to a more epic Throne room brawl. HBO dropped the ball on that.
    Also, I watched Borgias this week with the battle scenes, if Showtime can show thousands with their lower budget on Borgias, why can’t HBO show thousands of Dothraki leaving Vas Dothrak, or again a bigger badder throne room fight, what’s up, afraid to get cutting edge gory lately (hell Borgias even showed a little 8 year old girl getting her throat slashed), I expect shocking scenes like that from GoT, not some over extended lesbo sexposition (it got to the point of being silly).
    Tywin/Jaime and Dany scenes saved this episode from being the worst one, at least for me, I expected better, especially after last weeks episode.

  35. Dasein
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    Perhaps you should watch something else?

  36. The DarkStar
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    While I didn’t care for the sexposition. I really liked the reveal of Littlefingers character there. It sets up his later betrayal better, and its good to know he is a power player at this point (makes aiden guillen have an important role to the audience, which he does). And if I like his little monologue, I can’t think of a better way for him to do it really other than how it was done. He is certainly not going to tell anyone of any importance, so he told it to whores who weren’t even paying attention, worried about impressing the boss, so the viewer could gain insight in his character.
    I’m ok with it.

    Episode was great.
    WOOF!

  37. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    I’m from the same town as Dinklage…you know not a single person on the planet talks like that, correct?

  38. Phantomwriter05
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    greenie88,

    Actually all of the things with the rising of the three kings (Robb, renly, stannis) didn’t happen until after Ned is murdered. Same with Jaime’s capture.

    When Cersei comes to Ned in the Black cells all that is known is that Robb is on the prowl out there somewhere in the riverlands.

    So in turn Cersei is sparing Neds life not out of political gain. Everyone was of the belief that Robb was over his head against Tywin.

    I really view it as a life for a life.

    Cersei spares Ned because Ned tried to spar hers twice.

    Of course Joffery has other plans of course …

  39. vibesmoother
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Lost in all the child actors being so good is how Jack Gleeson is playing Joffrey. Maybe it’s like Sansa in that you love to hate him, but the kid is really good playing that role.

    And how good he is will pay off as the show progresses.

  40. maxlongstreet
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    I stand corrected on the knife thing. I still didn’t like the episode much, a lot of which is because I don’t think D&D or Gillen are really nailing Littlefinger in the way most of the rest of the cast is spot on.

  41. NousWanderer
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    I’m going to recapitulate my thoughts from the last episode 7 thread here, albeit in a slightly modified form.

    1a.) WHOREGATE: I am anticipating an outcry against the “whore training” scene, so I’ll say this in advance: for all of you noting that these lordly, powerful men frequently seem to expose themselves while in the presence of “lowly” whores (“sexposition”), have you stopped to consider that it might be an intentional theme? Ros is an invented character, but there were plenty of opportunities for raunchiness without her. It might be useful to ask ‘what purpose does she serve?’ Well, men talk to her. A lot. About their lives.

    Maybe there are cultural reasons why these men, with their stories, only feel comfortable revealing their darker motivations to a precisely chosen underclass of (expendable) women with whom they feel the most comfortable? And perhaps there’s an intentional subtext there, then, when the repressed Theon and the scheming Littlefinger and the heartbroken Tyrion speak up with candor in the company of sex workers in ways they cannot with others? Maybe this isn’t simply a reliable trope for exposition but it’s also a way to illustrate a common thread in the lives of these men and women–maybe it’s a way of showing how, in the end, the pariahs and whores see things most clearly and live with the fewest illusions about who their supposed ‘superiors’ really are? ALL of that comes across to me in the scenes. Maybe not to others. I think the success varies, but I don’t think that the scenes are deliberate attempts by the production staff to be puerile and nothing but.

    There’s a reason why Ros appreciates Tyrion so much. The money, sure, but also the fact that he offers a warmth and kindness despite his drunken appetites. And don’t we see the sadness of that, then, when the Hound berates him for his conquests – conquests he has to pay for because surely no other woman would touch him? Or how about with Theon, someone effectively a political prisoner who can’t – doesn’t have the option – of making a woman like Ros his wife (or any woman for that matter). Or Littlefinger, whose whole life has orbited one central, lost love and has been characterized by a growing cunning intended solely to advance his station and secure, once and for all, a perfect defense against ever being so humiliated as he once was by the hand of Brandon Stark? Some might argue that Littlefinger was out of character, revealing what he did. But what he revealed, really, was that he was in command of the situation and of himself. There were no “game changing” secrets given away–just a bald admission of how he sees things.

    This is completely disregarding the fact that the whoregate scene was marvelously acted and beautifully decorated. It worked for me. What’s more: sex is visually interesting and can convey a wide range of emotions. Note how the women were compelled to authenticity (e.g. compelled to the point where they wanted their pimp to join in) as the silver TONGUED Littlefinger continued his story, playing the puppeteer’s role with mere words? Littlefinger takes a certain relish in his playacting. Well, now we see why his whores do, too (remember Jory’s last peek? playacting can be effective.)

    There’s always more there. These writers take this show too seriously to simply have an “anal play quota” that they keep careful tabs on. The scene worked (for me), was dramatically economical (by almost any measure) and characterized so many dimensions of Littlefinger simultaneously. It was a success. Bold, shocking, titillating? Yes, and a success.

    1b.) Food for thought: VIOLENCE-GATE — Here’s a question about ‘what’s worth showing.’ Yes, most of the violence depicted thus far was featured in the books. This doesn’t mean that it has to be depicted as it was described in the books. Put otherwise: violence can be implied rather than shown. We have a tendency to discredit the writers when sex is enlarged or heightened because we have more of a tendency to see sex as intrinsically gratuitous. My view is that the sex has been used for purposeful effect, just as the violence has.

    Now, I personally prefer the approach HBO is taking. I don’t think the show needs to shy away from brutality or grittiness, and violence can often be terribly resonant and breathtaking. Lady’s death? It provoked a response (and was largely implied rather than shown). Gregor’s horse? The same (despite being graphically depicted). Jory, Ned? The same.

    Ser Hugh of the Vale? Why do you think Sansa and Arya were framed just behind his gurgling last breaths? As one reviewer wrote, the scene was less about letting US see his death and more about letting us see *Ned’s daughters* watch his death. These shots *serve a function.*

    At the same time, sure–some people feel that these functions don’t justify the explicitness with which the violence is depicted. But they’re often brushed aside by a larger majority who accept the violence on its own terms. So, then: why are we so willing to remain unchallenged where nudity is concerned? Because we’re speaking from cultural assumptions about what is and isn’t acceptable. The violence makes the show better, rawer, truer and more honest. The sex can do the same.

    Nudity and sex are often used (thus far) to represent vulnerability (Dany, E1 + E2), the forbidden (Cersei and Jaime, E1), lechery and self-abasement and willful illusions (Tyrion, E1), the borderland between vulnerability and aggressive self-preservation (Theon + Ros), exposure vs. facade (whoregate), etc. These are functional scenes and while I’m not arguing that they’re all equally successful, it’s a silly mentality that suggests that these moments on the threshold exist simply to titillate. Is that part of it? Of course! Just as violence is meant to thrill and excite. This is a visual medium, we’re visual creatures. But these are also powerful, important scenes for far more complex, nuanced reasons than some people allow.

    On this note, it’s worth recognizing that sometimes sex IS used in a purely suggestive fashion (implying without showing). Take, for example, Jaime being forced to listen in on Robert’s whoring. The function is multifaceted. Not only does it characterize Jaime and Jory (through their reactions to what’s going on behind closed doors) and Robert (through his behavior), but it also offers a slight moment of comic relief mixed with pathos and discomfort. It’s useful. There’s a solid defense to be made for almost all of these scenes, though the first reaction for many people is to be revolted and reductivist.

    2.) BARKGATE: First of all, I’ll repeat myself: film is a(n) (audio)visual medium. Animals move their mouths. Sounds usually come out. It creates a visual disconnect when the audience sees action without corresponding sound unless adequate reason has been given for the discrepancy.

    Truly mute wolves are exceedingly rare. Nobody expects a silent wolf. In the context of a novel, Ghost’s “trait” can be directly characterized. We can be told – directly and without awkward shoehorning by a character making the observation – that Ghost is mute.

    That’s not so easy here. Given that it’s a matter of careful balance and economics as to when Ghost can be on screen in the first place (especially since the ‘bond’ between the Stark children and the direwolves becomes much more important later on), I find it remarkable that there’s such an uproar about the fact that he made noise.

    Again: it would create a disconnect in the minds of audience members if, in those few scenes where Ghost is present, he’s completely silent. It doesn’t matter if the bark was added in through foley work or was a part of the field recording: it made sense. Otherwise you’d need to have a character comment on this small point of description in order to have it make sense / to answer audience questions, and that’s too much work for too little reward. It would be stilted. Awkward. It’s. just. not. a. big. deal. Perhaps we’ll get a “he doesn’t make much noise, does he?” moment in the future and you can all feel vindicated.

    3.) RE: Sansa’s betrayal of her father — some people have expressed concern that we haven’t seen Sansa rush to Cersei and beg to be kept in King’s Landing. There’s absolutely nothing which suggests that we won’t get that payoff later on, and it would actually undercut the dramatic twist of Ned’s failure in the throne room had the audience been given reason to anticipate Cersei’s counterplot (Littlefinger’s admission of his feelings for Cat is about as close to foreshadowing as we need to get). This is yet another example of fearing for the worst before the show has been allowed to finish. The same goes for the Tower of Joy or the supposed flashbacks/imaginings of the death of Ned’s brother and father. Ned is going to be in a cell, now, with some time to think and grieve and regret. Perhaps we’ll see something interesting and surprising. And even if we don’t see the Tower of Joy in this season, there’s absolutely nothing which says that we won’t see it in a future season. Does it have to come from Ned? Not necessarily. This is film. It doesn’t even have to be a recollection belonging to any one character. Maybe the Tower of Joy will serve as a functional ‘epilogue’ to an episode or to an entire season. Maybe Sean Bean will be a guest star for one episode and the sequence will somehow be associated with Jon Snow (if the R+L=J theories are true). We simply can’t say. It’s just so, so problematic to expect the show to adhere so closely to the very, very specific chronology of the chapters. By all accounts – by any account – this show is so incredibly faithful to the source material as to be unbelievably rare. I cannot think of another television adaptation which is so meticulously adherent to its progenitor. We need to be patient. Payoff in television is planned for differently than it is in novels (usually).

    4.) Charles Dance was nothing if not incredible. Everything I wanted from Tywin came across in that scene, and the visual impact of ‘seeing him get his hands dirty’ worked perfectly. Regarding the obviousness of the stag: it’s worth keeping in mind that while the average viewer might understand the general association between the sigils and the houses, they don’t necessarily recollect these associations whenever they confront the houses (e.g. a giant bronze stag gleaming against a bright, neon sky doesn’t mentally flash like an epilepsy warning for most audience members when they confront the word “Baratheon”). The skinning is no more or less subtle than the direwolf discovery scene in E1, and I thought it was pulled off far more evocatively. The sounds of that butchery are still with me. Coupled with Dance’s steely, self-certain performance, I was rocked.

    I loved this episode.

  42. Jenco
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Khal Drogo gave me chills!
    Also, I don’t see why softcore porn in every episode is necessary.. just because they can? Sex can add a lot to a scene, but at some point it just becomes gratuitous and detractive

  43. Peepin
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Wolfs bark.

  44. Tysnow
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Dasein,

    Why! they could have concentrated more on Littlefinger and less camera centering on girls, the sex in TB has purpose and its graphic but doesn’t get that overlong.
    If I had been the director, I would have had Ros grab a banana from a fruit bowl nearby, that would be HBO (that would have been awesome).

  45. Hollyoak
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Episode was great. The sexposition scene did not, erm, rise to the level of the other scenes in this great series. This is the first time I felt the nudity was actually gratuitous.

    More Charles Dance as Lord Tywin Lannister, please! Like, now!

  46. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    [Wall of Text crits you for 185%. Your head rolls across the floor.]

  47. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Ros absolutely sucks as a character and is entirely unnecessary, by the way.

    Just saying.

  48. RahBur
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Whoah, the brothel scene was waaaay overdone. Petyr’s dialogue was fantastic, and certainly helped to put more depth into his character, but I found it to be highly overshadowed by the gratuitous happenings in the room, I couldnt concentrate on what he was saying! HBO … what Littlefinger has to say in this story is way more important than two whores going at it. = /

    However, another episode thoroughly enjoyed. Loved LOVED — “I wanted to be a wizard.” Laughed out loud at that one.

    Ghost barking? I didnt even bat an eye at that. He seemed happy to be getting out to run a bit in the wild =D

    Drogo’s speech was FANTASTIC! Gave me chills. And the Throne Room Scene …. had me on the edge of my seat the entire time, and I knew what was coming! What was more fun was to see my newbie husbands hands fly up in exasperation when the Gold Cloaks turned on Ned =D So much fun!

  49. Trollsbane
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow:If I had been the director, I would have had Ros grab a banana from a fruit bowl nearby, that would be HBO (that would have been awesome).

    LOL

  50. Tysnow
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Jenco,

    Drogo ruled in that scene.

  51. The DarkStar
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    CZ,

    lol!

  52. Wolfheart
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Ghost doesn’t make sounds in the book. Yes, wolves do bark in real life. Where do you think dogs inherited that trait. I was ok with it. Its a forgivable. The heart tree freaked out the wife. Nice bromancing between Jon/Sam! The Theon/Osha scene was good. Get some Osha in to explain her character. It’s really to bad we see very little mention of Rickon and Shaggydog.

    I loved this episode. Didn’t like the lengthy sexposition. The exposition scenes are taking more time away from the actual story that carries the most weight. HBO met its nudity and sex quota WELL in this episode. I really dont think its needed in this awesome story. Its not whats drawing viewers back and back and back again and hooking people. I understand they want to explain Baelishs motivations and personality. But not knowing to much is what’s REALLY entertaining.

    Tywins introduction was AWESOME. Cutting up a Stag. Symbolism much..haha. Anyone bothered that they can alter Peter Dinklages hair to look more golden. But HBO drops the ball on NCW’s hair for Jaime. It was definitely BROWN in that scene. What HBO cant afford to highlight,bleach/wig his head at all. To get close to how Dinklage has his hair?

    Anyone catch that Benjens horse returns. I don’t believe his horse returns in the books. Is this a nod/hint from David and Dan?

    Momoa’s Drogo speech was great. You really want to join him, the amount of power passion in his speech!

    I really missed that they cut out Renly being present to see Roberts seal on the letter about Ned taking control until Joffrey comes of age.

    We got the Wights hand and Ghost…
    Can’t wait to see the next episode. It gets more exciting and sadder at the same time!

  53. Dasein
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    That would have been awesome. I was referring to the Borgias reference. Was that Shae with Ros?

  54. Khal Zhen
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    The Littlefinger monologue scene bears nowhere near the amount of attention it is getting. Having seen Deadwood, The Sopranos, and Rome, the background flesh is just something you come to expect. I hear True Blood is even more over the top.

    I’m surprised no one freaked our over the naked kids before that or the naked doomed wine seller later. Although, I do fully admit I wouldn’t recommend the season to several family members who I know aren’t used to it.

    It was a solid episode, firmly establishing the motivations of characters well into the first half of book 2. It’ll all be fireworks for the next 3 episodes.

  55. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Hits and misses in this episode. Big misses.

    Tywin Lannister butchering his own meat? Really? The richest, maybe most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms is dressing out a kill in his own tent? What? Who wrote this episode? I’m afraid to find out it is someone I like. What was this meant to instill in the viewer? That Tywin is a badass? OK, so he is. He’s also a rich badass. A very rich one. Rich enough to have people to dress the people who dress the people who dress the kills. Rich enough not to pull stinking offal out of a carcass in his own tent in front of his own frigging furniture. Dumb. Ruined the entire scene for me. A massive /facepalm moment to start the episode like this probably didn’t help my appreciation of the other dumb things in this episode. Like…

    GhostBarkedGate. Inexcusable. This is what sound editors are hired to fix. Apparently they didn’t have a director or sound editor who knows that wolves don’t bark – ever. What were they thinking?

    There is sex in the series. Fine. And we need exposition in the series. Fine. Combining them was interesting the first time. Trite the second time. Boring the third time. What is the count now? Roz is becoming the poster child for sexposition (pun intended). Great that we got more back story for Petyr Baelish. We also got a scene that was missing only a boom-chicka-bow-bow sound track in the background to make it completely inane. Come on guys. Surely D&D are clever enough to sneak in some exposition without using the same silly sex + back story trick over and over. It’s gone way beyond cliché now.

    The above put me in a bad mood, but there were some good moments in this episode.

    Maester Luwin smacking down Theon with just one sentence. Captive and guest not being mutually exclusive indeed. The look on Alfie Allen’s face was pure gold.

    More Ghost. OK, he barked. A sound editor should never work in the business again. But at least we got more Ghost. That is a good thing, right?

    The heart tree was good. Should have been a few more new brothers taking the oath out there, but it’s not as big a thing to complain about as the 4-man boar hunt from last week.

    Ah, Daenerys. Emilia Clarke is really shining now. She was speaking just with her eyes when Jorah confronted the wineseller. Good stuff.

    Jason Momoa gets more dialogue! Then even more dialogue! Now that was a Khal Drogo. Good way to end the episode.

    Barristan Selmy is getting more screen time than he had book time. I think this is a good thing. It will help non-readers of the books later.

    Dareon? He’s not listed as a named actor. Yes, he was in the first book in a small way. But is this the guy who will be playing Dareon? We don’t see him again until the Sam’s journey in AFFC. Does the lack of a named cast member for the part mean he’s been cut from any season devoted to AFFC, or that he’ll be recast?

    The entire wineseller chain of events was nicely done. I like Iain Glen as Mormont more and more each time he’s on screen.

    Sad to see Mark Addy’s last episode. He owned the part of Robert so well. He looked the part when cast. But he has certainly shown that it wasn’t just appearance alone which got him the role. He became a great Robert Baratheon.

    Woof! Arggghhhh!

  56. Kristen Weaver
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    CZ:
    [Wall of Text crits you for 185%. Your head rolls across the floor.]

    hahahahahahahahaha!

  57. Elizabeth Hildick
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Yes! I agree with you on every point, especially your breakdown of Whoregate. I am surprised that people seem so distracted by the sex that they cannot see it serving another function apart from titillation. I thought the Littlefinger/whores scene revealed so much about his character even without his words.

  58. purplejilly
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Hurray for the King’s Landing Butler! He got to be the one to deliver the news to Ned that the King was dead! He’s my favorite unnamed character, now : ) Long live the KLB!

    Tywin and that stag.. Ugh.. I had to cover my eyes and peek so I could avoid the ‘hunter porn’ Jaime sure did look upset at his dad’s obvious disappointment in the man he is so far.

    The main problem I have with the “LF and the whores” scene is that just a few eps ago, LF was impressing Ned with how he was the head of the WCIA (Westeros Central Intelligence Agency), and was walking around outing the cover of all these different agents as he and Ned walked through the courtyard, etc. Telling him to ‘trust no one’.

    Yet now, some brand new person who says they are from the North shows up, having LITERALLY just fallen off the turnip cart, and with some other auditionee from ‘who knows where’, and he just starts to rattle off his deepest, darkest secrets? A spymaster you are not, Dear Petyr, if you reveal your desires and your deepest dreams like that to strangers! What happened to trust no one?? And Ros is from the North! Does he not think she could figure out who he was talking about? Holy Crap that was waaay too many clues he revealed.

    I hope they turn Ros into a super secret spy now, maybe the long lost bastard daughter of Hoster Tully, who’s coming down to King’s Landing to take revenege on the abduction of her Uncle, The Blackfish, who is obviously tied up in someone’s root cellar. Maybe she will fall in love with the KLB!

    And Khal Drogo’s speech around the fire, wow, that was really, really good! It was very emotional, and moving. Finally, Dany and the Khal seem to have a real relationship, real love, and we see it onscreen!

    Ghost barking I didn’t mind so much, because I knew about it ahead of time, and I have resigned myself to Ghost being a white dog now, so that’s out of my head. Allthough I think I could see some frustration on Kit Harrington’s face as he told Ghost to bring him the hand.. LOL.. Probably because it was take 20 or so..

    John Bradley West is just a great Sam. He’s got a bit more spunk than book Sam, and a bit more humor, and I think it plays well on screen. And what’s this? Pyp is a singer? Are we going to get some singing here soon? Some songs of the Night’s Watch? I still find the Night’s Watch parts very captivating, and I could watch an entire hour of just the Night’s Watch stories..

  59. Jamie
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    jesus. people are complaining about the wolves barking once?

    solid episode though.

  60. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    Hmmmm, from what I remember, the throne room scene at the end played out practically identical to how it was in the book, what part was it missing? If you mean they should have fought more, I disagree, the Stark guards were caught by surprise and slaughtered quickly, a long fight scene would have felt silly with how outnumbered Ned and his men were.

  61. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Some of you people really need to chill about the barking. Saying someone should lose their job because a dog barked? You’re outta your goddamn mind.

    Tywin dressing his own kill? How about…WHY NOT? Does it ever say anywhere, at any time, ever, that Tywin doesn’t do just that? Just because that’s the way YOU IMAGINED it doesn’t make it so. It doesn’t seem at all odd or unusual that Tywin would do something like that. MAYBE he’s of the mind that if you want something done right, do it yourself. We don’t know. You don’t know. Maybe he just likes carving things up. We don’t know. You don’t know. It is what it is and you need to relax and enjoy the ride, even if it’s not your imagination leaping off the page onto the screen.

    I sometimes wonder how some of you managed to make it past the first episode.

  62. RahBur
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Hah ! Have to share what my husband said, as we were talking about the brothel scene. I’m really bummed about it, cause I thought it was completely gratuitous, that it might overshadow what Petyr was actually SAYING. But the husband (who hasnt read the book) said this :

    “I can see why HBO did it; Littlefinger is the king of f–ing people. And he’s there, teaching two people how to properly f–k someone, and make them BELIEVE they’re sincere.”

    Cue Throne Room Scene ….

    I guess I see his (and some folks on this thread’s) view on this.

  63. cindyash
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    It was just 3 minutes of screen time that could have gone to putting in something else from the book that would have been more awesome to see than two actresses act as whores fingering each other

    Totally agree. I realize this is HBO and they have a reputation to uphold, but that sex scene was totally unecessary to the story, and didn’t tell us anything about Littlefinger that we didn’t already know. I also was more than a little grosssed out by the skinning (tho I closed my eyes through most of it), tho I admit that it was the perfect setting for Tywin’s dialogue with his son.

    Nouswandering, just read your comments

    Maybe this isn’t simply a reliable trope for exposition but it’s also a way to illustrate a common thread in the lives of these men and women–maybe it’s a way of showing how, in the end, the pariahs and whores see things most clearly and live with the fewest illusions about who their supposed ‘superiors’ really are?

    I think you make a very good point. But I still think this could be shown without as much detail, and without as much time spent.

    But these are also powerful, important scenes for far more complex, nuanced reasons than some people allow.

    Perhaps (and I need to reread your comments again, I find them very interesting), but I can think of many many movies where complex, nuanced character and plot turns without the explicit amount of sex and violence shown. As for your comment that people are ok with violence but not with sex – I am not a fan of either unless for me they move the story forward (I know that for others they do, as you eloquently expressed). Im just saying you can do much with less; its been done before through the ages. Surely HBO has bright enough writers to do it here (tho I am not holding my breath :)

    Drago’s speech was amazing, as was the Nightwatch oath scene. The acting here continues to be briliant; despite any complaints I might make, I am still in awe of how this book is being presented here. Oh, and my DH, who was along for the ride, defintely sat up and took notice with that last few moments. I’d already told him that Martin frequently kills off favorite characters, so now he’s dreading whats coming, but can’t stop himself for watching. A good thing I suppose.

  64. greenie88
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Phantomwriter05:
    greenie88,

    Actually all of the things with the rising of the three kings (Robb, renly, stannis) didn’t happen until after Ned is murdered. Same with Jaime’s capture.

    When Cersei comes to Ned in the Black cells all that is known is that Robb is on the prowl out there somewhere in the riverlands.

    So in turn Cersei is sparing Neds life not out of political gain. Everyone was of the belief that Robb was over his head against Tywin.

    I really view it as a life for a life.

    Cersei spares Ned because Ned tried to spar hers twice.

    Wrong…wrong…wrong.

    From the book…Ned talking to Varys in the black cells..Varys’ words.

    “Cersei is frightened of you, my lord … but she has other enemies she fears even more. Her beloved Jaime is fighting the river lords even now. Lysa Arryn sits in the Eyrie, ringed in stone and steel, and there is no love lost between her and the queen. In Dorne, the Martells still brood on the murder of Princess Elia and her babes. And now your son marches down the Neck with a northern host at his back.”

    Martin, George R.R. (2003). A Game of Thrones (pp. 634-635). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

    said. “Yet only a boy, as you say. The king’s brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights … Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy.

    Martin, George R.R. (2003). A Game of Thrones (p. 635). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

    No one knows what Stannis has been doing on Dragonstone, but I will wager you that he’s gathered more swords than seashells. So here is Cersei’s nightmare: while her father and brother spend their power battling Starks and Tullys, Lord Stannis will land, proclaim himself king, and lop off her son’s curly blond head … and her own in the bargain, though I truly believe she cares more about the boy.”

    Martin, George R.R. (2003). A Game of Thrones (p. 635). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

  65. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Adrian:
    Some of you people really need to chill about the barking.Saying someone should lose their job because a dog barked?You’re outta your goddamn mind.

    Tywin dressing his own kill?How about…WHY NOT? Does it ever say anywhere, at any time, ever, that Tywin doesn’t do just that?Just because that’s the way YOU IMAGINED it doesn’t make it so.It doesn’t seem at all odd or unusual that Tywin would do something like that.MAYBE he’s of the mind that if you want something done right, do it yourself.We don’t know.You don’t know.Maybe he just likes carving things up.We don’t know.You don’t know.It is what it is and you need to relax and enjoy the ride, even if it’s not your imagination leaping off the page onto the screen.

    I sometimes wonder how some of you managed to make it past the first episode.

    You argue that the wind should stop blowing Ser.
    Some people have just formed such a complete picture of how the characters are that they cannot accept any other, even slightly, changed interpretation.

  66. Nimic
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Apparently they didn’t have a director or sound editor who knows that wolves don’t bark – ever. What were they thinking?

    Except, you know, that they do. They don’t bark often, but since you just made a huge point out of THEY NEVER BARK HE BARKED WHAT HAPPENED THERE I just thought I’d point it out.

    As for the rest.. I do agree with most (?) people that the Littlefinger-scene was a little bit TOO much, both in the amount of sex and the amount of information Littlefinger gave a couple of possibly unreliably whores. But it was only a few minutes long, and it doesn’t bother me too much. Certainly not as much as it seems to bother some people.

    I have to say, I was really surprised when I saw people going apeshit over Tywin and the stag. That is exactly the sort of thing I’d expect Tywin to do. Hard, arrogant, and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Do you think NO people of power enjoyed doing such things? I think you need to study a bit more history.

    All in all, a very good episode. I can’t wait for next episode, though, it’s going to be the best. Watch it.

  67. purplejilly
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Adrian,
    I think Tywin dressing his own kill was to drive home the point he’s a ruthless man who is not squeamish nor above anything. Plus it was symbolism to the extreme that it was a stag, and he kept grinding away at it when he kept asking Jaime again and again why Ned Stark was still alive..

  68. Tysnow
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Arrogant Bastard,

    I don’t mean longer in terms, just really more HBO graphic, I heard alot about Hound cutting a Stark guard in half, but didn’t see it (maybe they edited it out), I saw just a brief millisecond of it, which is the editors fault (whomever did this episode, doesn’t like graphic violence, but loves long drawn out sexposition). Make love not war, I guess.

  69. Tyrion's Scar
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    If you guys are flipping out about the sex so far wait until the bonafied porn star shows up. Why do you reckon they hired one of those to play a role ?

  70. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Oh I had no problem with the scene, believe me. I thought it was great. My imagination and the way I enjoyed the book is not hindering my enjoyment of the show.

    It’s just ridiculous that people say things like that “ruined the scene” or that it made them mad.

    Also I CAN’T BELIEVE THEY CUT TYTOS BLACKWOOD THIS IS THE WORST SHOW EVER AND I HATE IT

  71. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion’s Scar,

    She already did show up. That was her with Ros.

  72. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    My sister, the non-reader I watch with totally lost it this week. I felt so bad for her, she cried so hard. She really likes those Starks!

  73. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    As this is a spoiler thread, I do wonder what D&D were doing with giving Jorah Mormont a pardon in Episode 7.

    He never received a pardon in the book; just the promise of one. Are D&D hedging their bets?

    We know that the fact that Jorah betrayed Dany comes out through Selmy, who was a member of the Small Council and knows Jorah was Varys’ spy. (Except, Selmy is not a member of the Small Council in the TV series. But they’ll ignore that and just say he knew). But Jorah betrayed Dany for a promise to go home that never was fulfilled. In this episode, Jorah gets his pardon. He could have left. He doesn’t. He understands what it must mean and goes to save Dany’s life — and STILL does not leave.

    If D&D are hedging their bets as to whether or not they will just keep Jorah Mormont with Dany and not have him be ordered away — they planted the seed of the future flexibility in this episode.

    I’m not saying that D&D have decided to keep Jorah with Dany after season 3 (the first half of ASoS); rather, that it looks like D&D have provided themselves with the flexibility to choose to do so later in the series should they wish to. They’ll cross that bridge when they come to it.

  74. Josh
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Pros:

    Osha – Awesome. Seriously, what a great job there.

    The Ned/Cersei scene – Woot. Even better than I thought it would be. That scene was just brimming with tension and excitement. I know some people aren’t liking this new version of Cersei but I love her. She’s so much more complex and interesting than the one note villain the book Cersei has become. Brilliant performance by both.

    Emilia – Is this really her first big role? Seriously? She could be speaking some made up language and still give Dany an edge and softness all at the same time. Dany isn’t my favorite character after book 1(she becomes too much of a Mary-Sue) but Emilia is doing such a great job, I don’t think I’ll care. Not a fan of the spray tan they’ve given her though, haha.

    Jorah – Not much to say but he never interested me too much in the book. The whole pedophile/slaver thing turned me off. But the actor is doing a great job with the role and with Emilia being older, his love for her is less gross.

    The Wall – Loved the scenes here. I HATE Sam in the book(like my least favorite character HATE) but I’m REALLY enjoying him here. I always enjoy the wall in the books and these were some of my favorite wall scenes in book 1 and I thought it was translated so well. Kit’s doing a good job with Jon but Sam’s the standout for me only because I don’t hate him :-p.

    The Episode: SOOOOOO FRACKIN’ good in just about every way(except for the first few minutes). It just so well paced, so well acted and so well written. My favorite episode yet and next week looks even better. Those last five minutes I was just on the edge of my feet.

    Seriously terrific, amazing, everything good word used to describe something good should be used for this episode. My favorite episode yet.

    Cons:

    The Littlefinger/whore scene was both the worst scene of the show yet and an amazing piece of acting/writing. The whores were sooo unnecessary and distracting. Seriously, it was a scene no one could watch with a friend or a loved one without feeling slightly uncomfortable. It was just WAY too much and there wasn’t a point to it except to have some softcore porn in the episode.

    BUT the Littlefinger part of it was terrific(and is a PRO). Aidan was terrific. Yes it was exposition but it felt natural and really told you so much about Littlefinger. It was bone chilling and exciting, revealing yet mysterious. Just wonderful. Too bad their were whores moaning in the background, totally distracting from it because seriously it could have gotten him an Emmy but Emmy voters are stuffy and having it occur when it did is going to hurt his chances.

    I wish they’d give Bran and Robb more to do. Start establishing Bran’s relationship with Osha, show Robb’s struggle in running the house. Enough Theon, the exposition king. We get who he his, start concentrating on the other guys up North.

    Khal Drogo – Bored me in the book, bored me here.

    Small thing but I didn’t like that they changed Pip’s backstory. It was revealing before. Yes he was low class but as a whole he was as noble and good as Jon. Did we have to sex up everything?

  75. Tysnow
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Now my ranting is over, what I loved.

    Tywin skinning while talking to Jaime, awesome.

    Dany assasination attempt, cool.

    All the Wall scenes, perfect.

    Ned/Renly scene, great setup.

    I loved the Throne room confrontation up till the all too brief and rated PG cut fight.

    Drogo speech was priceless, nailed it perfectly, if I was there I would be wanting to mount a horse and head to Westeros, right then and there.

  76. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Adrian,

    You do know that this is the thread for people who have actually read the books, right? The thread for those who haven’t is over there —>>

    It’s not about a dog barking. It’s about a wolf barking. Yes, wolves do bark – very rarely. When startled. When raised in captivity around dogs who bark. That’s about it. The don’t bark when they go racing off into the woods. This wolf did. And this just isn’t any wolf. It’s a direwolf named Ghost. It’s Ghost. Not Scooby Doo. Ghost wasn’t just named for his color. Those who have read the books know this.

    Tywin is protrayed throughout the books as obscenely rich. Consciously rich. His armor is golded and jeweled. His cloak is clasked with twin golden lions on the shoulders. His horse is caparisoned in silks and gold. Every single scene with him in the books displays his power and wealth. And yet, he was in his own tent pulling entrails from a dead animal? Have you ever done that? Do you even have the slightest clue what that smells like? Go visit an abattoir sometime. Again, this thread is for those who have read the books.

    On the subject of Roz. Perhaps there is something we’re missing. Maybe D&D know something we don’t. They supposedly know how the books will end, right? Perhaps there is a character in the remaining books who is being set up now as Roz? That’s the only reason I can think of for the recurring use of her as a weird mix of Cinemax on Friday and a BBC doumentary.

  77. Jinn
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    What happend with the character that not die in GoT but dies in the series??

  78. Quanta
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Barkgate left me more bemused than upset. I think its because I was just so glad to see Ghost, I don’t care if he was acting doggy.

    Sexpositions was more annoying for two reasons. First, it was a very long scene and the time could have been spent better elsewhere. Second, exposition during sex is getting tiresome as a device. It is simply overused. If they are for some reason contractually obligated to have a sex scene in every episode it would be nice to see one that’s more about character development. An intimate scene between Dany and Drogo or a not so intimate scene with a drunk Robert and Cersei would be better.

  79. Phantomwriter05
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    greenie88,

    She knows that the Starks will end up joining Stannis anyway …

    It never makes sense that she would just let Ned leave the capital for the wall. Do the Lannisters believe that …

    1.) The Starks will just sit out the fight?

    2.) That the northren lords will just allow Yoren to take Ned to the wall on the orders of Joffery?

    Cersei probably knows all that … no matter how you look at it Ned will be back.

    That’s why I see it as Cersei sparing Ned’s life.

  80. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Jinn:
    What happend with the character that not die in GoT but dies in the series??

    No one has yet died in the series who did not also die in the same place in the books.

  81. Deborah
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Dasein: Tysnow, That would have been awesome. I was referring to the Borgias reference. Was that Shae with Ros?

    I really hope not because sheis nothing like I picture her. That and Tyrion gets her after a battle when she is a camp follower so I would hope they don’t bring her in this season.

  82. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Langkard:
    Adrian,

    You do know that this is the thread for people who have actually read the books, right?The thread for those who haven’t is over there —>>

    It’s not about a dog barking. It’s about a wolf barking.Yes, wolves do bark – very rarely.When startled.When raised in captivity around dogs who bark.That’s about it.The don’t bark when they go racing off into the woods.This wolf did.And this just isn’t any wolf. It’s a direwolf named Ghost.It’s Ghost.Not Scooby Doo.Ghost wasn’t just named for his color.Those who have read the books know this.

    Tywin is protrayed throughout the books as obscenely rich.Consciously rich.His armor is golded and jeweled.His cloak is clasked with twin golden lions on the shoulders. His horse is caparisoned in silks and gold. Every single scene with him in the books displays his power and wealth. And yet, he was in his own tent pulling entrails from a dead animal?Have you ever done that?Do you even have the slightest clue what that smells like?Go visit an abattoir sometime.Again, this thread is for those who have read the books.

    On the subject of Roz.Perhaps there is something we’re missing.Maybe D&D know something we don’t.They supposedly know how the books will end, right?Perhaps there is a character in the remaining books who is being set up now as Roz?That’s the only reason I can think of for the recurring use of her as a weird mix of Cinemax on Friday and a BBC doumentary.

    You are much to caught up with how you believe things should be because of your interpretation of the books.

    Not only that, you’re a douche.

    I’m going to go ahead and say it, since almost everyone else around here is too nice to say it Mr. This is a thread for people whom have read the books douchebag.

  83. koinosuke
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who really thinks Ghost barking in the background once is a big deal needs to take a step back and reexamine their lives, please. Of all the things to freak out about.
    For me the only real con of the episode was Litllefinger’s brothel scene being a bit much, but it wasn’t enough to sully the episode. Best one yet, imo. Can it be next Sunday now, please?

  84. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Oh hey man, thanks for the tremendously condescending post. Now I know this may shock you, seeing as my opinion differs from your Nazi-esque craziness, but I’ve read the entire series to this point multiple times. You know what else happens in the book? Jaime is in the joust, wearing a lion’s head shaped helmet. The Kingsguard wears white armor. Ros doesn’t exist. That scene with Osha and Theon never happened. I could go on but I don’t need to prove shit to you.

    Again, I ask, heart in my throat, hopeful and with bated breath that you’ll enlighten your obvious inferior, but when, EXACTLY…and since your knowledge of the source material is so encyclopedic, please provide exact page numbers…hardcover or soft, it doesn’t matter, I have both, as well as the first book favorited on my browser here…when was it that Martin said “And also Tywin NEVER EVER EVER skinned an animal, ever ever!”?

    I think I forgot that part, but since you’re so deeply in tune with his character’s inner motivations, thoughts, emotions, and feelings, I hope you’ll deign it worthy of your time to prove me wrong, and why everything YOU IMAGINE is correct.

    And maybe DIREWOLVES do bark. You know, since this is a discussion based on the books…you should know they’re not real wolves. Or did that slip your mind?

  85. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    And yet, he was in his own tent pulling entrails from a dead animal?Have you ever done that?Do you even have the slightest clue what that smells like?Go visit an abattoir sometime.Again, this thread is for those who have read the books.

    Look, I’m sorry but you are overstating this by more than a little. He is carving up a Stag. Not a pig, not a cow, not a goat or a sheep or a chicken. A Stag. Nobles and Kings DID field dress their own kills. That was not considered peasant’s work like carving up a domesticated sheep would be. It is a distinction with a difference.

    So to suggest that Lord Tywin Lannister was too important to carve up his own deer after a hunt overstates the matter on both a factual and historical basis by more than just a little.

    Moreover, the symbolism in Tywin carving up a Stag was obvious and very well done.

    Lastly, everything Dance did oooozed Tywin Lannister in that scene. He OWNS the part. In as certain a manner as Maisie Williams owns Arya. That was Tywin Lannister. To a tee.

  86. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    CZ,

    I didn’t want to say it

  87. Lanister accountant
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    I whole heartedly agree that if people here are needling things like barkgate, the series is in really good shape. This episode had a lot going for it, sexposition aside. No complaints from me.

  88. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    CZ: You are much to caught up with how you believe things should be because of your interpretation of the books.

    Not only that, you’re a douche.

    I’m going to go ahead and say it, since almost everyone else around here is too nice to say it Mr. This is a thread for people whom have read the books douchebag.

    CZ: You are much to caught up with how you believe things should be because of your interpretation of the books.

    Not only that, you’re a douche.

    I’m going to go ahead and say it, since almost everyone else around here is too nice to say it Mr. This is a thread for people whom have read the books douchebag.

    And this is a thread for people to discuss their reactions to the show, having read the books. Do you just not get that, sport? Yet you and Adrian decided to insult people for expressing their opinions? Who made you the arbiter of what should or shouldn’t be posted here? Mighty high opinion of yourself to be calling someone else a douche. Pot meet kettle. Instead of arguing points, you made it an ad hominem thing, both of you. I tossed it back in your face. If you don’t like it, don’t dish it out. Dimwit.

  89. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Dasein,

    I think that was the character Armeca, invented for the series, played by Sahara Knite. She’s on the cast feature on this website, and her past “acting” work makes it clear whey they picked her for this role.

  90. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Did you ACTUALLY just say that I insulted you and started this?

    You are instantly one of the most condescending, self important dicks I’ve never met.

  91. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Have you ever dressed out a deer? I have. You don’t do it in your own tent. I might buy Tywin doing it himself but never in his own silk tent among his furniture. Seriously. Go find an abattoir, a slaugherhouse. Take a good sniff. The very first thing Tywin did was slit that thing open and pull out the entrails. In his own tent. Whomever wrote that episode has obviously never done so, or they’d have written it differently.

  92. kingslander
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Does anybody know a forum where we could discuss the episode without it constantly descending into childish bickering?

  93. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Adrian:
    Langkard,

    Did you ACTUALLY just say that I insulted you and started this?

    You are instantly one of the most condescending, self important dicks I’ve never met.

    Hello, Pot. This is Mr. Kettle.

  94. Wolfheart
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Langkard:
    Hits and misses in this episode.Big misses.

    Tywin Lannister butchering his own meat?Really?The richest, maybe most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms is dressing out a kill in his own tent?What?Who wrote this episode?I’m afraid to find out it is someone I like.What was this meant to instill in the viewer?That Tywin is a badass?OK, so he is.He’s also a rich badass.A very rich one.Rich enough to have people to dress the people who dress the people who dress the kills.Rich enough not to pull stinking offal out of a carcass in his own tent in front of his own frigging furniture.Dumb.Ruined the entire scene for me.A massive /facepalm moment to start the episode like this probably didn’t help my appreciation of the other dumb things in this episode. Like…

    GhostBarkedGate.Inexcusable.This is what sound editors are hired to fix.Apparently they didn’t have a director or sound editor who knows that wolves don’t bark – ever.What were they thinking?

    There is sex in the series. Fine.And we need exposition in the series. Fine.Combining them was interesting the first time.Trite the second time.Boring the third time.What is the count now?Roz is becoming the poster child for sexposition (pun intended). Great that we got more back story for Petyr Baelish.We also got a scene that was missing only a boom-chicka-bow-bow sound track in the background to make it completely inane.Come on guys.Surely D&D are clever enough to sneak in some exposition without using the same silly sex + back story trick over and over. It’s gone way beyond cliché now.

    The above put me in a bad mood, but there were some good moments in this episode.

    Maester Luwin smacking down Theon with just one sentence.Captive and guest not being mutually exclusive indeed.The look on Alfie Allen’s face was pure gold.

    More Ghost.OK, he barked.A sound editor should never work in the business again.But at least we got more Ghost.That is a good thing, right?

    The heart tree was good.Should have been a few more new brothers taking the oath out there, but it’s not as big a thing to complain about as the 4-man boar hunt from last week.

    Ah, Daenerys.Emilia Clarke is really shining now.She was speaking just with her eyes when Jorah confronted the wineseller.Good stuff.

    Jason Momoa gets more dialogue!Then even more dialogue!Now that was a Khal Drogo.Good way to end the episode.

    Barristan Selmy is getting more screen time than he had book time.I think this is a good thing.It will help non-readers of the books later.

    Dareon?He’s not listed as a named actor.Yes, he was in the first book in a small way.But is this the guy who will be playing Dareon?We don’t see him again until the Sam’s journey in AFFC.Does the lack of a named cast member for the part mean he’s been cut from any season devoted to AFFC, or that he’ll be recast?

    The entire wineseller chain of events was nicely done.I like Iain Glen as Mormont more and more each time he’s on screen.

    Sad to see Mark Addy’s last episode.He owned the part of Robert so well. He looked the part when cast.But he has certainly shown that it wasn’t just appearance alone which got him the role.He became a great Robert Baratheon.

    Woof!Arggghhhh!

    I forgot for a moment that Tywin WOULDNT be dressing his kill, then I realized it. It would be appropriate for his book character not to. But in the instance of this scene, I thought it was doable.

    Yes, WOLVES DO BARK. Humans bred domestic dogs FROM WOLVES. WOLVES BARK, DOGS BARK. Ghost does not in the book. I agree that a sound editor could have easily removed it.

    I loved the look Barristan gives Cersei when she puts out her orders. You can see it in his eyes that he can no longer work with house Lannister. He IS an Honorable man. Part of the reason for his departure.

    We may still see Mark Addys dead body…hah

  95. Trollsbane
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think that was Shae.

    This is Shae
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1402546/mediaindex

  96. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: And this is a thread for people to discuss their reactions to the show, having read the books.Do you just not get that, sport?Yet you and Adrian decided to insult people for expressing their opinions?Who made you the arbiter of what should or shouldn’t be posted here?Mighty high opinion of yourself to be calling someone else a douche.Pot meet kettle. Instead of arguing points, you made it an ad hominem thing, both of you.I tossed it back in your face.If you don’t like it, don’t dish it out.Dimwit.

    So you obviously try and insult someone, based off your own opinion being right and EVERYTHING else being wrong. Then when someone calls you out on being a total douchebag you cry ad hominem and claim that person made it personal? You act like you are the arbiter of what is right in the episode based off of you own opinion and then ask why the other person believes they are the arbiter of what is right? Then you use a pot calling the kettle black insult and call the other person a dimwit?

    Douchebag.

  97. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Yes that’s very cute, thank you. I’m still waiting for answers to my questions. Or am I just to assume that your imagination is the be-all end-all?

    Answer my questions, please. I’m a big fan of learning and nothing would please me more than bettering myself through your brilliant tutelage. Please, Mr. Kettle, edify me.

  98. Clob
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    While it wasn’t my favorite episode thus far I still enjoyed it. I did however think the first twenty minutes were nearly my least favorite of the first seven episodes. Not surprisingly, many of those minutes were filled with non-book scenes. It’s not that I hated those twenty minutes… they just could have been better filled.

    The very first scene with Jaime and Tywin. It was okay but my entire focus for some reason during the scene was on Jaime’s hair. What was up with that? It looked darker, goofy, and made him look very different.

    The second scene with Ned and Cersei was nearly straight from the book and just fine.

    The third scene in those twenty minutes was Littlefinger’s in his brothel. I don’t mind nudity and sex, rather like it usually, but this new scene was cheap, tacky, cheesy and below the standards I want in GoT. Not to mention that I don’t care all that much for the Baelish character and listening to him speak for five minutes bores the hell out of me.

    The fourth scene – Theon and Osha, then Luwin. meh for the Theon part. He’s being thrust on us too much for what his part is in the first book. As soon as Luwin and Osha start speaking we’re twenty minutes in and then the episode picks up and I enjoy the rest as much as the first six episodes.

  99. Ser_G
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    The complaints about “whoregate” are the most idiotic yet, and that’s saying something.

    “No, no, no, no. Is that what they teach you, up in the North? And you, wherever you’re from. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? Do either of you understand a thing that I’m saying?”

    Change 6 words and this is a speech to Ned.

    “Let’s start over, shall we? You be the man, and you be the woman. Well, go ahead! Slowly. You’re not fooling them, they just paid you. They know what you are. They know it’s all just an act. Your job is to make them forget what they know. And that takes time. You need to … ease into it. Well, go ahead. Ease into it. He’s winning you over in spite of yourself. You’re starting to like this. He wants to believe you. He’s enjoyed his cock since he was old enough to play with it, why shouldn’t you? He knows he’s better than other men. He’s always known it, deep down inside, now he has proof. He’s so good, he’s reaching something deep inside of you that no one even knew was there. Overcoming your very nature.”

    What exactly do people think he’s talking about here? Here’s a first grade hint: it’s not sex, and it’s not the whores in front of him.

    The exposition that follows isn’t the most engaging, but it’s tied in nicely with the stinger regarding Ned: “He’s just so … good.”

    I feel like I’m being condescending even having to point it out, but this isn’t even difficult and it seems like the majority of the commentators here are completely missing it.

  100. Conrad Arthur
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    About the direwolves acting doglike: They are juvenile direwolves still. Dogs are like juvenile wolves, retaining more youthful characteristics into adulthood.

  101. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    CZ: So you obviously try and insult someone, based off your own opinion being right and EVERYTHING else being wrong. Then when someone calls you out on being a total douchebag you cry ad hominem and claim that person made it personal? You act like you are the arbiter of what is right in the episode based off of you own opinion and then ask why the other person believes they are the arbiter of what is right? Then you use a pot calling the kettle black insult and call the other person a dimwit?

    Douchebag.

    You don’t even know what ad hominem means do you? I posted my opinions. Adrian then respondes with an ad hominem post which was entirely about why his opinions are better, because the rest of us need to chill out and we take things too seriously. The wntire post was ad hominem – directed at the posters not the content. I responded, then you chimed in with a direct insult. Again, ad hominem. So I gave it right back. You’re an idiot. No further need to keep demonstrating it.

  102. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Langkard:

    Have you ever dressed out a deer?I have.You don’t do it in your own tent.I might buy Tywin doing it himself but never in his own silk tent among his furniture.Seriously.Go find an abattoir, a slaugherhouse.Take a good sniff.The very first thing Tywin did was slit that thing open and pull out the entrails.In his own tent.Whomever wrote that episode has obviously never done so, or they’d have written it differently.

    Yes, I have. Moose too. What is this, an episode of the Red Green show? Or is this the part where you drain the steel beer can and crush it like Quint?

    No, I wouldn’t do it in a tent. But that’s where the SCENE takes place. They didn’t want to green screen the whole scene and add extras galore to it. So they shot it in the tent, set up outside. Ideal? No. But this is television, it’s not a historical re-enactment of a scene that never took place from a book that never happened in a land that doesn’t exist.

    They are entitled to some artistic license.

    As for the tone of your post — and others above — not too sure about the horse you are on, but it sure looks a lot like Stranger. Perhaps you might clamber down off said high horse for a bit, hmm? Nobody else here but us fellow fans. If you lightened up — you might find you were among friends.

    Not saying it’s all you fault, but please, lighten up.

  103. Mike Chair
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Adrian,

    My point is Dinklage portrays Tyrion without his ordinary manner of speech, whatever that is, because to do otherwise would be out of character. The dog portraying Ghost ordinarily barks. He shouldn’t whilst portraying Ghost because direwolves should not bark. It’s out of character. It’s irksome. Wolves bark. Direwolves don’t. Again, 4 books, 6 direwolves and over 3,000 pages and not one bark.

  104. TheRevenge
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Adrian,

    Tywin is described as a hard man who is still in excellent shape(as opposed to his brother who is not). What makes you think he does not hunt? I find it hard to believe that a man in his great physical condition(at his age) sits around reading books all day. What in the book tells you that he would NOT kill and dress a stag?

    “Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated , he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach.”

    Tell me, how does a man like Tywin pass the time and keep that body in shape?

  105. Tyrion's Scar
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Adrian:
    Tyrion’s Scar,

    She already did show up.That was her with Ros.

    Oh heh. I haven’t actually seen the episode yet. I usually wait for my brother who is a non reader and he fell asleep. =[

  106. Wolfheart
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Look, I’m sorry but you are overstating this by more than a little. He is carving up a Stag. Not a pig, not a cow, not a goat or a sheep or a chicken. A Stag. Nobles and Kings DID field dress their own kills. That was not considered peasant’s work like carving up a domesticated sheep would be. It is a distinction with a difference.

    So to suggest that Lord Tywin Lannister was too important to carve up his own deer after a hunt overstates the matter on both a factual and historical basis by more than just a little.

    Moreover, the symbolism in Tywin carving up a Stag was obvious and very well done.

    Lastly, everything Dance did oooozed Tywin Lannister in that scene. He OWNS the part. In as certain a manner as Maisie Williams owns Arya. That was Tywin Lannister. To a tee.

    Except for those glorious blonde mutton chops…lol

  107. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Dude, you REALLY need to go back and read my first post again. You took it WAY too seriously and I apologize if it twisted the stick up your ass. I never once said my opinion was better, not once. I said “WE DON’T KNOW” about Tywin’s motivations of emotions or thoughts. The ONLY point of my post was to respond to your “WHY?” question with a “WHY NOT?”

    And then you lost your shit.

    And then you still didn’t respond to my reasonable questions, after you insulted me in an incredibly condescending, holier than thou fashion. And then you continued to ignore the questions. And then you started attacking people and claiming they did it.

    If I can tie it to a moment from the show(OH MY GOD IT’S ALSO IN THE BOOKS I MUST NOT HAVE READ), Cersei says Ned was returning drunk from a brothel and attacked Jaime. Attacked Jaime RIGHT outside the whorehouse, with his guards speared with their swords still in the scabbard, and outnumbered by like fifty. It’s an incredible, unbelievable lie with all the evidence against it right there for everyone to see.

    Do you actually believe the things you say?

  108. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: You don’t even know what ad hominem means do you?I posted my opinions.Adrian then respondes with an ad hominem post which was entirely about why his opinions are better, because the rest of us need to chill out and we take things too seriously. The wntire post was ad hominem – directed at the posters not the content.I responded, then you chimed in with a direct insult.Again, ad hominem.So I gave it right back. You’re an idiot.No further need to keep demonstrating it.

    I do actually understand what an ad hominem attack is, and you’re still a douchebag.

    You should stop watching the show, you obviously can’t enjoy it very much as it doesn’t match your perfect idea of how it should be.

    PS>His reply wasn’t even really an ad hominem. He did not try and discredit your argument by linking it some character flaw that was specifically about you. He didn’t even use your name.
    It’s only an ad hominem if you are using the most loose interpretation of the term. That he didn’t specifically refute your opinion with actual written verse form a book by GRRM.

  109. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    TheRevenge,

    No dude I’m saying it’s not unbelievable at all. I think it’s entirely reasonable, and Langkard lost his fucking mind because he disagrees.

  110. greenie88
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Langkard

    Most people who read the books don’t even remember Ghost was totally mute. I didn’t, and I’ve read them 3 times. I’m sure right after I read them if you asked me I would know the answer–but in the months that past that bit of information was lost. Why? Because it never really mattered to the storyline. From the first book I remember the Ned betrayal, Lady dying, the Arya/Joffrey fight at the river..and many scenes left to be played out in this series. But Ghost being mute–was never a big deal. I didn’t read the books thinking “Oh, I hope Ghost is around Jon to protect..and Gods I hope he doesn’t make a sound”. I didn’t get my friends to read the book by hyping there was a mute wolf.

    Ghost’s quietness in the grand scheme of things 4 books in….is not a major deal. And I doubt in the rest of the books the fate of the kingdoms will hinge on whether Ghost “doesn’t howl/bark”.

    Matter of fact, there is a scene left to play out (if they follow the books) where Ghost does warn Jon. If we went with the ‘quiet’ Ghost in the series, we would need exposition to explain why Ghost is quiet so the audience doesn’t wonder “Hell…why doesn’t that dumb wolf just howl or bark?” Or they could go with the non-quiet Ghost (probably with GRRM’s blessing since as I stated, Ghost’s muteness doesn’t seem like a big deal in the story) and go with it.

  111. TheRevenge
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Actually that post was directed at lang, sorry about that Adrian.

  112. drinksTeaInTheMornin
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Game of Thrones Episode 8 Preview – The Pointy End

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q653MMhri3A

  113. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Conrad Arthur:
    About the direwolves acting doglike:They are juvenile direwolves still.Dogs are like juvenile wolves, retaining more youthful characteristics into adulthood.

    I’ll buy that. Even though wolves, for the most part don’t bark, except when startled or when raised entirely around dogs who bark. The dogs in the Winterfell kennels would have nothing to do with the Stark’s direwolves. They were terrified of them. And Ghost is even more quiet than the others. Wolves growl, they whine, they are entirely more vocal than dogs, except for the barking. And when they rarely do bark, it’s even at an entirely different frequency.

    It could have been fixed. As I said, sound editors are supposed to fix things like this. This one didn’t. Poor sound editing.

    Note to Adrian and CZ: This is how one argues about the content of a post without making it personal. Go back and read your first posts after mine again and see where you might have gone wrong. I don’t do turn the other cheek. I bite back. If you don’t like it, ignore me. As I will be dong to you.

  114. cindyash
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    Um, I meant to ‘spoiler’ those last few lines of my post, and Im not being allowed to edit. Could the powers that be do that for me please?

  115. paulgude
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate,

    I put the “Littlefinger going all super-villain with his plans” up there with Ned reading out loud to himself. Just a little bit of theatre cross-over.

    Suspension of disbelief powers…activate!

  116. SirOccam
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Phantomwriter05,

    Agreed about Ned and Cersei. I liked their scenes in the books, and I wish it had kept the same sort of feel.

    Overall I really liked the episode. Charles Dance is fantastic as Tywin. Nice symbolism there too, gutting the stag.

    The Littlefinger scene was…wow. My friend and I were watching it and he turns to me and he’s like “dude, this is…almost porn.” I can’t say I disagree. I certainly never got that feeling from any other nudity in the show so far. It’s going to be awkward as hell if I happen to be around when my parents decide to watch it. Still, I absolutely loved Littlefinger’s monologue/soliloquy/I’m not sure what.

    I never even noticed any dire wolves barking, so I can’t say I care about that a whole lot. Who’s to say dire wolves don’t bark? =P

  117. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Like I said. Go back and read my first post again. I assume your problem is that I said “You’re outta your goddamn mind.” I’ll apologize for that.

    But you STILL have not answered my questions. You still haven’t given any substantive reason why what you are IMAGINING IN A FANTASY NOVEL where you DON’T know what the character is thinking, or hell, even what he’s doing when he’s not hanging out with a POV character, is correct and any other interpretation is wrong.

    If you dance around the questions again, or ignore them as you’ve done, or just continue to try to insult me with how much smarter than me you think you are, it’s not going to make ME look bad. I’ve been civil to the point that you have. I don’t give a shit about your “biting back” because it’s been toothless and ineffectual. I just want to know why I’m wrong and you’re right.

    And as for ignoring someone for disagreeing with you on the internet? You choose internet coward over internet tough guy? Brave choice pal

  118. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Langkard:

    Note to Adrian and CZ: This is how one argues about the content of a post without making it personal.Go back and read your first posts after mine again and see where you might have gone wrong.I don’t do turn the other cheek.I bite back.If you don’t like it, ignore me.As I will be dong to you.

    Congrats on not being able to follow your own advice. Being a pretentious douchebag because someone said “why wouldn’t he do something like that” since your belief that he wouldn’t is opinion only is what started all of this.

    I’m done with you.

  119. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    CZ,

    By the way, I like you

  120. paulgude
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    kingslander,

    I enjoy reading the non-reader forum for more objectivity.

    Unfortunately, I can’t discuss anything with them, less I poison the well.

  121. fuelpagan
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Loved the scene with Tywin and Jaime. Loved the fact he was butchering his own deer. It symbolized for me his feeling that he must do even the most mundane things himself or they just won’t get done right. And he’ll be left trying to fix the mess.

    But overall I felt kinda Meh about this episode. I think it’s because of all the responses of how great it was got my expectations too high. I hope HBO doesn’t do the episode early stunt again. Really ruined it for me.

    Now about whoregate. Littlefinger is a pimp. So him talking with and training his whores makes sense. So my problem wasn’t with the scene, but how it was shot. It felt too gratuitous that it almost felt like soft core porn. I liked the scene, but I don’t feel it was necessary to be that graphic and still get all the points across.

    Barkgate…I really could care less. They could have made him sound like a chirping cheetah for all I care. I’m just glad Jon finally called him Ghost.

    My only complaint is that Robert never talked about the battle of the trident. I thought they would put that story on Robert’s deathbed. But I guess we will never get the story from Roberts point of view.

  122. Wolfheart
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    While it wasn’t my favorite episode thus far I still enjoyed it.I did however think the first twenty minutes were nearly my least favorite of the first seven episodes.Not surprisingly, many of those minutes were filled with non-book scenes.It’s not that I hated those twenty minutes… they just could have been better filled.

    The very first scene with Jaime and Tywin.It was okay but my entire focus for some reason during the scene was on Jaime’s hair.What was up with that?It looked darker, goofy, and made him look very different.

    The second scene with Ned and Cersei was nearly straight from the book and just fine.

    The third scene in those twenty minutes was Littlefinger’s in his brothel.I don’t mind nudity and sex, rather like it usually, but this new scene was cheap, tacky, cheesy and below the standards I want in GoT.Not to mention that I don’t care all that much for the Baelish character and listening to him speak for five minutes bores the hell out of me.

    The fourth scene – Theon and Osha, then Luwin.meh for the Theon part.He’s being thrust on us too much for what his part is in the first book.As soon as Luwin and Osha start speaking we’re twenty minutes in and then the episode picks up and I enjoy the rest as much as the first six episodes.

    Knowing his hair should be the same color as Tyrions and Cersei’s I also couldnt stop focusing on the brown hair. HBO dropped the ball on this one.

  123. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    I suppose I should say, by the way, that I would like to apologize to everyone trying to enjoy this thread for having been at least partially responsible for its derailment. But I do hope you can at least kind of see where I’m coming from.

  124. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:

    Not saying it’s all you fault, but please, lighten up.

    Accepted, but the dickhead twins, CZ and Adrian, set me off.

    It would have been better, perhaps, if they had Tywin watching as someone else dressed out the deer. Sitting in a chair, watching a servant do it. Drinking wine from a golden cup. They might have removed the large varnished armoire too. And put him in something other than black leather. As far as I remember, there was not one scene in the books where Tywin wore anything other that the richest silks, velvets and gold or the finest gold washed armor with silk. Even when Tyrion puts a crossbow bolt into Tywin’s guts as Tywin takes a shit. Tywin was wearing a silk robe. Black leather, entrails and the incredible stink of them, in his own tent? Just isn’t Tywin. And it’s a shame, because Charles Dance is perfect for the part. He did a good job of being the arrogant, scheming and very smart Tywin Lannister. It was the setting which didn’t match the scene.

  125. Tysnow
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    drinksTeaInTheMornin,

    Concerning Ep. 8 preview, why are the Kingsguard pulling their swords out to fight, I don’t remember that in the books. Neds capture is over, unless its a flashback by Ned to the the Throne room fight, while asleep.

  126. SirOccam
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    You guys seriously need to chill the hell out.

  127. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Alright, I was going to try to ask the EXACT same question in a way even you couldn’t interpret as insulting, but you seem to be intent on being insulted either way. But it boils down to the same thing.

    WHY? Why would that be better?

  128. Clob
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    watching for a second time… additional notes –
    They made Pyp a steward rather than a ranger. I suppose it doesn’t matter, just curious

    sure like Barristan in the show.

    Reread what should be next week’s episode – look forward to it

  129. greenie88
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    That’s the scene where Barristan is “fired”. You can see a bit of Selmy in the foreground.

  130. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    SirOccam,

    For the love of god, please read through the entire development of this insanity. I posed a simple question and got blown up on and insulted.

    I think I’ve been more than reasonable, honestly, not at all in the wrong, and still had the decency to apologize to the other people in this thread for shit I didn’t start but was involved in.

  131. drinksTeaInTheMornin
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    well greenie88 said it.

    1 against 4, this should be awesome.

  132. Adrian
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Well I’m going to sleep now, fellas.

    I do apologize again for all the ballyhoo.

    I love you all.

  133. CZ
    Posted May 29, 2011 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    paulgude:
    kingslander,

    I enjoy reading the non-reader forum for more objectivity.

    Unfortunately, I can’t discuss anything with them, less I poison the well.

    I agree. It’s a fun read, but not being able to discuss with them makes it rough to post anything at all.

    I got my fiance into the the books after the first couple of episodes so now we can discuss things. Before then she would ask questions like what happens with this person and I would have to try really hard to hold my tongue. I would usually just say, Martins writing is very brutal and NO ONE is safe.

  134. greenie88
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    drinksTeaInTheMornin,

    Yep, I stopped every frame and studied them and tried to deduce what I was seeing.

    I noticed that Othor didn’t seem to have the wight blue eyes!!!! Uh-oh, I expect eye-gate next week.

  135. drinksTeaInTheMornin
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    greenie88,

    LOL, me too, studied every frame like it’s 2010.

  136. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Now about whoregate. Littlefinger is a pimp. So him talking with and training his whores makes sense.

    See, this is the part that I didn’t like about the scene — and for just this reason.

    Littlefinger is NOT a pimp. He’a Lord from one of the poorest areas south of the Neck. The lord of rocks and sheepshit, in his own words.

    To compensate for the poorness of his lands, it turns out the Littlefinger will do something that most of the other Lords of the Seven Kingdoms won’t do — which is get involved directly in commerce and the dirty business of making money.

    Lord Petyr Baelish is, in fact, one of the most successful merchants in the Seven Kingdoms. He has a wide variety of investments in many commercial ventures. He is not a hands on pimp; rather, he merely has an ownership interest in a few brothels. These holdings are but a few of his investments. It’s like he owned 100 shares in Disney Corp and so they gave him a job description “amusement park operator”. WTF?

    So instead of portraying him as the one Lord in the Kingdoms who actually will get his hands dirty in the business of business, they have, with that scene (and the prior scenes in the brothel), make him out to be a pimp in the viewers estimation. “That’s what I know”. That’s not Littlefinger from the novels as I read him.

    And so that’s why the scene bothered me. They made Littlefinger seem overly crass, far less affable and generally likeable, and into a man whose only source of income is flesh — a hands on pimp. Instead of the brilliant Master of Coin whose talent for breeding dragons is so(in)famous to his fellow Lords that they allowed him to rise far above his station, they have made Baelish out to be a mere villainous pimp.

    Littlefinger the Master of Coin is a man you have to admire even as you despise his duplicity. Littlefinger the Pimp? Not so much.

    Not a fan of that characterization of Littlefinger. With or without the moans.

    Apart from that, I loved the episode.

  137. Trent Schell
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Tywin is old-school and not afraid of a little blood on his hands. Dressing his kill may be his idea of a relaxing evening.
    Do you think he’d be afraid to put a worm on a fishing hook? Does he have someone to wipe his ass too?

  138. KG
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    This week’s requisite boob scene finally tumbled over the edge into “WTF-Enough Already” what a stupid, pointless, overlong scene.

  139. paulgude
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    CZ,

    Yeah, it’s a problem.

    I’d love to be able to discuss the show with folks who have read the books but don’t judge the show in terms of the books, but it’s difficult, perhaps impossible. That kind of objectivity is rare, even with people who think they have it.

    I’m erring on the side of fanboy. It makes watching the show a lot more fun.

  140. KG
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Well, well. Look who got turned on.

  141. userj
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Kingslander,

    The TwoP forums are pretty good (though of course if you have read the books dont’ post in the completely unspoiled speculation thread). They have a thread for each episode and I haven’t seen any mindless bickering. Westeros.org is as bad as here for nitpickers, and rarely does anyone post in the show threads.

  142. DH87
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    If anyone is still interested in Barkgate, everyone is correct.
    Wolves do (rarely) bark. They more often growl, whine, yip, and howl. When they bark, it is a short “alert” to pack mates, typically at short range.
    The kind of bow-wowing the animal depicting Ghost used is a dog usage, not directed at anyone, just a joy of living barking most domesticated dogs utilize all the time.
    Now, back to whoregate, on which I have nothing from direct experience to contribute.

  143. paulgude
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Like I mentioned in the last thread, thanks for making it so that I can keep mostly lurking. Excellent points, all.

  144. fuelpagan
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Lord Petyr Baelish is, in fact, one of the most successful merchants in the Seven Kingdoms. He has a wide variety of investments in many commercial ventures. He is not a hands on pimp; rather, he merely has an ownership interest in a few brothels. These holdings are but a few of his investments. It’s like owning 100 sharaes in Disney Corp and branding him a film-maker or entertainer.

    Owning 100 shares in Disney corp doesn’t give you leave to hide friends of yours in their hotels. These are brothels he owns, with whores he trusts to keep quiet. This makes him a pimp. I don’t see it as a degrading position. He’s training them to keep his investment returning high profit margins. That’s how the scene works for me.

  145. Ripley
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Loved this episode, sex scene and all.

  146. Drfunk
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    The show has exceeded my expectation by a mile. Is it a perfect adaptation? This is where everyone seems to get their panties in a knot. I have OCD on some of the little details of the book myself but *Joker voice* “why so serious?” If the new TV viewers wanted our opinion on stuff they’d ask for it. I bet most of them are thoroughly enjoying the show as is without us (readers) comparing out e-peen knowledge of Westeros.

    This show has been a learning experience for everyone. From the actors to the producers. Call me optimistic but I’ve got a good feeling that D&D learned a lot from this season (like their decision to go real dogs vs CGI which might get fixed for s2). To the amount of sexposition (as this seems to be a genuine concern) being brought out etc.. Just like our fav characters in the show are developing on and off screen, this show needs time before it really gels together. Season two should become much better overall.

    If you’re still pms’ing hard due to some book detail which was poorly transitioned, please take some time to look at this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUS2LSJR22k

    The most epic scene with an equivalent epic soundtrack will make everything alright. (having some beer while you watch it is even better).

    PS: Anyone else got a huge boner after Drogo’s speech? I’m not even gay (not that there’s anything wrong with that) man I miss Seinfeld…

  147. Kyles
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    Awesome episode, but i find i have to screen every episode with hbo go first before watching with my parents. That way i can just happen to leave the room for the awkwardly long sex scenes

  148. oracle86
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    In this episode, when Ned tells Varys to stop the plans regarding Daenerys, Barristan looks at Varys and cocks his head. I am sure he could piece out everything because Ned specifically says “Daenerys Targaryen”. And all those references to Selmy’s honour by Ned should do the trick, especially since we know what happens next.

  149. Katrina Brooks
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    I wanted to add a disclaimer here: I have read the books, and I thoroughly enjoy them. However, just as I watched the Harry Potter movies and took them in as separate from the books, I view HBO’s Game of Thrones as an alternate continuity to the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, and therefore try not to compare them in my mind. It’s hard, but I take things with a grain of salt.

    Tywin and Jaime: I felt this scene captured the essence of who Tywin is. He’s not afraid to get his hands dirty, and he care about the honour of his house. We see him chastising Jaime for not restoring the honour to House Lannister. Also, I love Nikolaj Coster-Waldau in this scene. He emotes well. And the symbolism, with the stag… oh, wow, that was epic!

    Ned and Cercei: Very similar to the books. I felt several chills, knowing what was going to happen at the end of this episode, and the ‘when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die’ line was well delivered. Nice cinematography at the beginning of the scene too, with Cersei bathed in backlight while the camera looks up at her. It almost foreshadows that although Ned is trying to bring her down in this scene, she still has the upper hand.

    Which brings us to sexposition (is that what we’re calling it?). Yuck is all I can say. It went on far too long, and I really can’t see Petyr truly spilling out his feelings to a couple of whores.

    Theon and Osha/Luwin and Osha: Enough of Theon, as much as I like him (now, thanks to HBO), I want to see more of Bran, Robb, and RICKON!!!!! (oh, and direwolves). However, Tonks, I mean Osha was great, as was Luwin in this scene.

    Night’s Watch #1: chilling. Jon and Sam have a great bromance like chemistry going on. I love those two actors.

    Robert’s Bedside: I hope that was just Joffrey putting on an act. I don’t recall him being that upset in the novels. However, that was brilliant acting by Jack Gleeson. In all honesty, I could totally see him as Scorpius Malfoy if the Harry Potter movies ever put out a spin-off series based on the Next-Gen. But enough of that. The whole scene played out very well, with nicely placed humour from Robert. Sad to see Mark Addy go. It’s almost as sad as last week, seeing Harry Lloyd go. By the way, I’m getting freaked out by that vacant, almost terrified stare Varys seems to have on his face 24/7.

    Dany and Drogo: Very well played. I love Jason Momoa. And Emilia Clarke is just beautiful and suits her character. This scene was almost exactly the same as the novel, and I have no critique.

    Dany at the Market: First of all, Jorah and Dany have excellent chemistry, as much as I still am a Dany/Drogo shipper. Jorah getting his pardon confused me for a sec, but I can see how it may pay off in the future. The wineseller was perfect, and the body language and facial expressions throughout this scene really impressed me. Also, may I say, GO RAKHARRO!!!!!!!! He deserves a medal. As does his actor. Of course, that could just be me fangirling.

    Night’s Watch #2: Jon angst. LC Mormont. Maester Aemon. Everyone’s expressions when Jon is assigned to the Stewards. Pyp’s (changed) backstory, which tied into the scene nicely. Sam’s ability to break the tension (I always wanted to be a wizard). Everything about this scene made me giggle with happiness.

    Ned and Renly: Renly’s really listening to Loras now, isn’t he. There isn’t much to say about this scene, except Ned is really stupid.

    Ned and Littlefinger: I was screaming at the screen the whole scene for Ned to not listen to Littlefinger and throw the creep off of his balcony. But sadly, it never happened. Again, not much different than the book.

    Night’s Watch #3: The reciting of the vows really gave me chills, and the finding of the severed hand even moreso. I don’t care about Ghost barking. In all honesty, I didn’t notice until I read the complaints. Also, whoever commented on the fact that there should have been more people taking their vows, it’s in the books that Jon and Sam are the only two.

    Drogo Speech: The emotion that Jason Momoa managed to pack into that speech, given that it was in an invented language that he only just learned for the show, seriously impressed me. Major props to him. Seriously, the cracks in his voice as he pledges to give Raegho the Iron Throne almost had me in tears, knowing what would happen. Oh, Drogo, you really are a great husband and father. Also, full male frontal nudity. Good on ya, HBO.

    Throne Room: Oh boy. I was almost in tears from the Drogo speech, and this scene drove me over the edge. I knew what was going to happen, and I was still wistfully hoping that Ned would keep his mouth shut. That dress Cercei was wearing was gorgeous, by the way. Major props to the costuming department (even though the Cercei in my head was wearing red). Also, the organization of the extras in this scene was fantastic. It looked so real, and so threatening. Joffrey was a perfect little shit in this scene, and I still can’t get over the Hound’s helmet. At first, it’s intimidating, but then I look at it long enough and it looks comical.

    Littlefinger: He deserves his own heading so I can fanrage. LITTLEFINGER!!!!!!!!!!!! fhdfkhdjkglfhgjkhadjklfghfjkdlajdfghfjkdlkajfgdfjlag (yes, that was my exact reaction to “I did warn you not to trust me”)

    All in all, I liked this episode for the most part. It was very similar to the books, and for the most part, I felt the same level of emotions for the scenes. The added scenes were a bit meh, especially sexposition, but whatever. It’s HBO, what do you expect? Of course, the Drogo speech was expertly delivered, and Emilia Clarke is fantastic as Daenerys. Tamzin Merchant who?

    I’m a bit disappointed that we didn’t get the younger Stark children this episode, but it was a loaded one regardless. And I’m one of the condemned fans who doesn’t like Tyrion (I know, gasp), so the lack of him was nice, for me. I just can’t wait for Shaggo to cut off someone’s manhood and feed it to the goats. That’s the highlight of Tyrion’s existance for me. Hopefully that comes next week.

    Yay, Jack Gleeson! You can act like a little piece of shit! Congratulations!

  150. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    KG:
    NousWanderer,

    Well, well. Look who got turned on.

    Here’s the thing, KG – Ros is definitely boner-worthy. I mean, I’d have flagrantly jerked it to that scene if my priorities were a little different the first time around. That’s not saying much, though, since I can fap to just about anything. I mean, hell, where are my hands in this picture (the man behind twitter.com/RickonStark …revealed!)

    http://gyazo.com/1a9128920368b05bdd056e9b76d8aac7.png

    For all you know I’m watching Schindler’s List and fapping right there. But, that’s the thing: you don’t really know.

    Even still, it’s worth reminding you:

    http://gyazo.com/ae4a7164546c9b16f6a12e48acb52eda.png

    More to the point of the discussion, however: claiming that I was maintaining an erection throughout the ‘whoregate’ scene isn’t an adequate way of addressing any of the points of my earlier post.

    Your dismissal, then, is thematically relevant – I have to give you that. How? Well, what was Littlefinger’s speech about if not…adequacy?

    Surely you can work it a little more than that. C’mon.

    Sell it.

  151. The DarkStar
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    I thought that Tywin scene was perfectly in character. In order to be a great general you need to be a soldier first, work your way up through the ranks. Ned teaches his son, why HE has to behead the deserter. Tywin was getting his hands dirty while he was out with an army, maybe to help him think. I bet his father taught him how to hunt and skin his own kills cause Tywin is the man. He is NOT a pampered lord. He is a hard nosed grizzled brilliant battle commander, fierce and strong of mind. You think he doesn’t know how to clean a stag?! Maybe the Tyrell lords don’t but Tywin does, and he does it to help him think and stay sharp.

  152. Drfunk
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Katrina Brooks,

    I agree with everything except the Cercei interpretation. We never witness the slutty man eating side of her (which becomes obv apparent in future books) which really makes me wonder how they’ll do that transition. It’s not so much the scene that bothered me but the interpretation of it (as this will finally cause Jaime to breakaway when he figures she’s been cheating on him)

    Other then that I agree, that the Stark children should have gotten more focus than Theon. He’ll play a key role in season 2+ but not at the expense of not fully fleshing out the Bran arc line (will we even see the Crag tag team) as well as not giving Robb enough screen time (where he WILL become a major player) which could be a serious mistake. It’s almost as if PoV characters take the forefront while the ones without takes a backseat Or is it because if they fully developed Robb / Bran there would yet be the issue of having dumb dogs who couldn’t deliver their action/lines within schedule.

    But despite all that, it is truly breathtaking to see how much emotion can be conveyed through the small nuances of acting. Reading and imagining can do wonders but seeing it happen is another thing.

    On a side note, does anyone feel the soundtrack is appropriate? There were concerns about a switch of composer so late into the start of the shoot. Everything (besides the awesome opening credit) seems so SUBDUED, i mean I don’t recall ever hearing anything epic to reflect it. Wondering if that’s the preference everyone has. I’d like to hear some epic music from time to time during the show personally.

  153. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    Katrina, there is so much win in your post I can only reply in small bits – I didn’t do it right, but my edits in your post has ** in front of my comment. I hope it looks okay

    Katrina Brooks: Theon and Osha/Luwin and Osha: Enough of Theon, as much as I like him (now, thanks to HBO), I want to see more of Bran, Robb, and RICKON!!!!! (oh, and direwolves).

    **Exactly – I get the feeling that Theon is the “Jan Brady” of the Northern Bunch, and is now stomping around the stables, going “It’s always the Starks, Starks, Starks!!!”

    However, Tonks, I mean Osha was great, as was Luwin in this scene.

    **Yeah, and like I had any doubts that Tonks was afraid of Theon.. LOL.. “Never heard of them Iron Islands at Hogwarts North of the wall”
    Watch out Theon, you are about to get a body-binding charm put on your skeevy little ass!Expelliarmus indeed!

    Night’s Watch #1: chilling. Jon and Sam have a great bromance like chemistry going on. I love those two actors.
    **They are my favorite new couple, especially with Sam asking Jon if he misses girls.
    Robert’s Bedside: I hope that was just Joffrey putting on an act. I don’t recall him being that upset in the novels. However, that was brilliant acting by Jack Gleeson. In all honesty, I could totally see him as Scorpius Malfoy if the Harry Potter movies ever put out a spin-off series based on the Next-Gen. But enough of that.

    Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes! What a great Scorpius he’d make! And I was so touched that he seemed truly upset that his father is dying. Because I think he really does think it’s his father now and forever. I don’t think Cersei will tell him otherwise in case he decides to spill the beans and say he doesnt care because he’s King now.. He wouldn’t be able to keep that secret.

  154. Rik Taylor
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Dasein,

    Totally – I loved the symbolism of the head of the Lannisters very casually butchering a Baratheon; I’m sorry, a stag.

    I’m really having to separate the book from the show, since what takes hundreds of pages of narrative and internal monologue has to be summed up in a visual form that still keeps a decent pace. The whorehouse sexplanation/sexposition may have been awkward, but non-readers needed to know about his relationship (real or mis-interpreted) with Cate.

  155. Milenten
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    maxlongstreet,

    You and your wide are douche bags….. Sometimes being less pretensious is more

  156. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,
    Here’s how I equate it. Remember that scene at the Night’s Watch, when Sam asked Jon about had he ever had a woman, and did he know where to put it? When they were in the dining hall scrubbing tables with salt or whatever?

    Well to compare, they could have had Jon and Sam in their bunks, and had then yanking their wing-dang-doodles, moaning softly at first and then louder as Jon describes Ros, what she looked like, and afterwards, why he didn’t conclude it. But you know what? It would have been cheap, cheesy and unneeded for those excellent actors to convey that scene in that manner. There did not have to be sex in it. And there wasn’t and it was a beautiful moment.

    Same for LF and the Brothel. He could have been in bed, ‘after’ an audition had just been completed with the two new whores, relaxing in the afterglow, and then talking little tidbits about his tips for pleasing men, and the asides about the one woman he really likes. This is when men confide this kind of stuff anyway, before or after the ‘act’ not ‘during’ it. “During” it, you should be interested enough to leave the monologuing out of it. If I’m with a man, or he was watching me with another woman, and he started monologuing, I’d close up shop and say “Hey, we can come back and do this another time when your concentration is available…”
    And it seems that Ros is a good enough actress that she could play cuddly in bed after sex, and ask enough questions and make enough facial expressions to make it believable, don’t always have to have her in motion with her trade, ya know?

    It just came off as unnatural, and unneeded, and a way for HBO to say “Hey look at us, we’re HBO, we show this stuff because we can!!” Someone really needs to redesign their logo to be made out of boobs, peens and crotches..

    Yeah, I know they did this with Deadwood, and True Blood, but this is ASOIAF – you have so much great source material, you don’t need to peen and boob and crotch it up all the time. If I want a good crotch shot, I know where to go, and it doesn’t have to be HBO…

    Also, Kings Landing Butler, ya’ll! Don’t forget him! he was great!

  157. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer:

    2.) BARKGATE: First of all, I’ll repeat myself: film is a(n) (audio)visual medium. Animals move their mouths. Sounds usually come out. It creates a visual disconnect when the audience sees action without corresponding sound unless adequate reason has been given for the discrepancy.

    Except that the barking sound is heard when we see Ghost from his back, running away from the camera.

    The argument of “animals move their mouths but there is no sound – how weird would that be?” is so exceptionally stupid that it is the only one in that whole post that leaves me completely speechless. Congratulations.

    Truly mute wolves are exceedingly rare. Nobody expects a silent wolf. In the context of a novel, Ghost’s “trait” can be directly characterized. We can be told – directly and without awkward shoehorning by a character making the observation – that Ghost is mute.

    That’s not so easy here. Given that it’s a matter of careful balance and economics as to when Ghost can be on screen in the first place (especially since the ‘bond’ between the Stark children and the direwolves becomes much more important later on), I find it remarkable that there’s such an uproar about the fact that he made noise.

    Nobody expects a wolf that barks like a dog either.
    And it is easy here. There were countless opportunities to mention that Jons direwolf is a silent one. There were countless opportunities to show him – all missed because of the incompetence of those creating the show.

    What youre trying to say here is that the first mistake someohow makes the other one – not a mistake?
    Well no.

    The bond between the Starks and heir direwolves is important from the start, it is something that needs to be discreetly woven into the story, something that needs to be set up.
    Otherwise you end up with direwolves in the machine, suddenly jumping out only in the scenes where you absolutely cannot avoid them and none of that subtle connection to the Starks visible or guessed at, understood.

    Again: it would create a disconnect in the minds of audience members if, in those few scenes where Ghost is present, he’s completely silent. It doesn’t matter if the bark was added in through foley work or was a part of the field recording: it made sense.

    It makes no sense whatsoever to have a direwolf who is supposed to be completely silent – barking like a dog.

    Not from the story point of view, nor from the tv show point of view – since that dog is supposed to “act” like a wolf.

    And if people do not expect one thing from wolves – it is that they go around doing “woof! woof!” (regardless of a wolf ability to make a similar sound).

    Otherwise you’d need to have a character comment on this small point of description in order to have it make sense / to answer audience questions, and that’s too much work for too little reward. It would be stilted. Awkward. It’s. just. not. a. big. deal. Perhaps we’ll get a “he doesn’t make much noise, does he?” moment in the future and you can all feel vindicated.

    This paragraph is a demonstration of a oxymoron.

    Indeed, how weird it would be for some character to comment on Ghost silence – in this series of all? Characters commenting on some part of the plot or story or character exposition? Shocking!

    And then, even after “its not that big of a deal”, we should get that comment sometime later on – after he has been barking and growling around? Makes perfect sense.
    Just about as much as the rest of that post of yours.

  158. SergioCQH
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Charles Dance just became the best actor on the show in my eyes.

  159. Nicole
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Hells yes. I thought this episode was great. Loved the whole thing. Dany becomes more and more amazing each week. Drogo’s speech was badass. Seeing Joff on the Iron Throne was intense. GHOST! Finally, I don’t care if the wolves are dogs and that they look and act like dogs all I want is MORE of them or at least SOME of them in the f’ing show.

    I especially loved the setup for the next season tonight. I can’t wait to have 5 kings. Even Renly stole some scenes tonight. Great casting.

  160. Titus Crow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Jenco:
    Khal Drogo gave me chills!
    Also, I don’t see why softcore porn in every episode is necessary.. just because they can? Sex can add a lot to a scene, but at some point it just becomes gratuitous and detractive

    I just don’t see it being an issue. These scenes are often fairly short with the infamous brothel scene being around four minutes much of which was sound. What are we to do when you have whore mongering characters? Is this Amish country? It’s not like it’s anything we haven’t seen before and while it is gratuitous at times the scenes also carry significance.

  161. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,
    I swear, if you watch the scene with Jon asking Ghost to come to him, you can see the frustration on his face, and the hatred for that damned wolfish dog that did not do what they needed it to …LOL
    They blew it on the Direwolves for S. 1 – it’s blown, we get what we get, we can only hope they get a CGI budget for them for S. 2. But for me, S1. Direwolves, the show totally missed the boat, and for whatever reason, had to ruin the magica connaction between the Stark children and their wolves. Oh well. we shall see if S. 2 gets any better.

  162. Dante
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    do we really have to have another full week of the same debates? everyone should just agree to disagree about the barking and move on to other topics.

  163. Remy
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Would everyone calm down about the barking dogs. It’s not a big deal. All books when translated to the big screen lose something. D&D are doing great job. Every week it’s something else. Enjoy the show. Realize it’s not going to have everything you love. Realize they are going to add new scenes. If you can’t be happy then don’t watch it.

    This happened with The L Word. Everyone was their own critic. People hated this or that with it. I’ve been through this before and have to say. You will enjoy the show if you the writers, directors and cast tell the story for you.

  164. Avalanche3319
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    I usually try to refrain from nitpicking and just enjoy all the good, but I have to say I absolutely hated the brothel scene. I’m not against sex scenes, but this went beyond ridiculous. One of the reasons I couldnt get into Spartacus was the gratuitous sex for the sake of being “edgy.” GOT has now veered into those waters and it cheapens the show. It’s to the point that I would no longer recommend the show to some of my friends and family.

    Other than that scene the episode was excellent. I couldnt care less that Ghost barked, I’m just glad to see him. And actually hear his name spoken!

  165. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    What a fantastic episode! I don’t care that Ghost barked I was just happy to see him around at all. The so called “sexposition” scene was well done I thought. It gave light to what Baelish’s true character is and that he’s trully a player in the game. Him telling these things to whores is in no way a strange thing. Men and women have used prostitutes and escorts and courtesans for not only sex but as a way to talk about their fears and dreams etc in a safe place with someone who even if they judge you they are never going to outwardly show such judgements. Petyr’s monologue was fantastic and very well played. Tywin’s intro was amazing and perfect. The Lion butchering the stag? Could there be a better visual analogy for the episode at hand? Also he definately came across as a man not to be trifled with. I really liked the sense of care that came across for his son, you don’t get that alot from him in the books.

    Ahhh Mark Addy… you sir will be severely missed. You were the only man I ever saw as Robert and you’ve more than lived up to that. Thank you for being amazing at what you do. the twinkle in your eyes and that laugh were fantastic additions to the show and it won’t be the same without you. Robert’s death was much more heart wrenching here than in the books to me. Wonderfully done sir.

    Could they have chosen a better Samwell Tarly? Not in a million years. I just wanna hug him. ” I wanted to be a wizard”. How can you not love that guy? Aemon is perfect of course though I did miss jon making sure sam was allowed to fully take the black to protect him from Thorne but I realize that it would’ve added a good five minutes at least to be done well and it wasn’t absolutely necessary for what was going on. I can’t wait for Jon to pass through his whiny boy phase to his “awesome all that is man” stage. One thing only that I noticed that I couldn’t understand was why they removed a line from the oath. “I am the horn that wakes the sleepers” Was I the only one who noticed that? I mean its not a huge deal or anything it just doesn’t make sense why it would be left out. The weirwood was beautiful and everything I ever imagined it would be.

    As for the final scene I think it was done as well as time would allow. I wish it was a little more clear what is happening as the fight happens so quick its hard to follow even for someone who knows it inside and out. I thought Barristan did a great job showing the inner battle of which way to go. Follow his oath to protect the king and blood royal or do what is right for the realm at large. all in all this episode was awesome. You know that giant snowball thats been sitting on top of the mountain, its shadow falling over everything? Yeah it just got kicked off its perch and I for one can’t wait to see the path of destruction its gonna make. GRRM is to Tolkien as the internal combustion engine is to the horse. both are marvels but one is sooo much greater than the other. All thats left to say I guess is… HODOR!!! :D

  166. SirOccam
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Adrian,

    I wasn’t addressing that to anyone in particular, but a few people do need to take it especially to heart (not you so much). It’s ridiculous to get so frenzied about something so trivial. We’re all fellow ASoIaF fans here.

  167. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Some of this may be spoiler-ish….I also think that the brothel scene serves a purpose not only in showing us more of petyr’s character but also show why certain characters later might get “taken in” by a certain whore whom shall not be named. Petyr training them is less for the sex (which, come on we’re all adults, we’ve all had and seen sex, don’t be so damn prudish) but more to explain why these women are and will be so important to the coming seasons.

  168. Hawk
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    that will be the dismissal of Ser Barristan from the Kingsguard…

  169. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Not that anyone really cares at this point, but I have my recap up now. Scroll up to read or click here.

  170. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    We do care sir! We do! And thank you for your hard work and dedication :)

  171. dtb
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer, you are very thoughtful and intelligent, and you make some good points.(sexposition)

    I just don’t see it. If they are trying to get across a theme of Noblemen confiding to whores, they are not doing a very good job of it. I DO think some of the sex scenes have been done very well- the especially the stuff with Dany and Drogo, and even the Viserys-Doreah bathing scene. If they do the Tyrion stuff well, it should be heartbreaking.

    I don’t however think that you always need to show everything for it to be effective. A good example of this I think is the Wire. Sex was a very important theme in that show. But it wasn’t thrown at the viewers all the time, and not everything was shown all the time. The fourth season, which I think may have been the best, had very little sex. However, The Wire was not popular…and we want GOT to be, so I don’t know what the trade-off is.

    Not saying that the sex has been handled terribly, but it does seem like a bit of laziness on the part of the writers at time-in that they have relied on it too much.

  172. Blink
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    LangkardAnd put him in something other than black leather.

    Minor point, but I think he was wearing a butcher’s apron or some variation thereof since he was dressing the stag.

  173. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:

    Tywin and that stag.. Ugh.. I had to cover my eyes and peek so I could avoid the ‘hunter porn’Jaime sure did look upset at his dad’s obvious disappointment in the man he is so far.

    To me, the scene was a very cheap way to introduce the character of Tywin.

    No doubt that the actor himself is very capable and a great choice for the role. He has the right charisma and presence that can convince anyone that Jaime would be skittish around him.

    But the dressing of a stag was just a too blatant cliche.
    No doubt real Tywin would be capable of doing it, he may even done it some time because he surely would balk at it. But it is not something he would feel he needs to do to impress anyone.
    More importantly – it is something he wouldnt be wasting his time on right now, at the start of his military campaign.

    He would be at the planning table, in his armor, surrounded by his captains and planning, planning, planning and scheming away.

    THAT is what should have been shown. That is who he is.
    Eyes of steel, a mind of blades. A guy that goes to sleep in his armor – if he sleeps at all.

    Besides that the whole symbolism of a butchered stag was already done and repeating it again now is just boring.
    With Joffreys “antler men” we might think there is some deep stag fetish that Lannisters have. (though i wouldnt be surprised if that was left out)

    purplejilly:
    The main problem I have with the “LF and the whores” scene is that just a few eps ago, LF was impressing Ned with how he was the head of the WCIA (Westeros Central Intelligence Agency), and was walking around outing the cover of all these different agents as he and Ned walked through the courtyard, etc. Telling him to ‘trust no one’.

    Yet now, some brand new person who says they are from the North shows up, having LITERALLY just fallen off the turnip cart, and with some other auditionee from ‘who knows where’, and he just starts to rattle off his deepest, darkest secrets?A spymaster you are not, Dear Petyr, if you reveal your desires and your deepest dreams like that to strangers!What happened to trust no one?? And Ros is from the North!Does he not think she could figure out who he was talking about?Holy Crap that was waaay too many clues he revealed.

    Exactly. To me the whole convulted sex scene accompanying the exposition only made this bigger mistake all the worse.

    Once again, in the important aspects of the story the producers show that they are incapable of maintaining a shred of subtlety or mystery. Its all spoon feeding and hammering away.
    Littlefinger character is one that needs to stay mysterious. To keep people guessing what is his deal.

    And if he is going to reveal anything about himself he will do it in an appropriate place – such as talking to Sansa, for example, when the time is right.

    Not only do they ruin his mystery and a good revealing moment later on but they also ruin the surprise of him betraying Eddard at the end of the episode.

    At least i would think they do but seeing some comments around here makes me think they should have thrown in a couple of “muahahaha!” evil villain laughter’s too, or stabbing Eddards vodoo doll with a dragonbone knife.

  174. Ghost
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    This episode was my favorite so far. The Littlefinger scene was great because it is different. This is a show for adults, and because of that they should take risks. Not everyone will like it, however they deserve credit for going out on a limb.

    I also view the t.v. series separate than the books and some of my favorite scenes, where created by HBO, so I also hope they don’t strictly stick to the books. I hope they cut out the lame stuff in the books, keep the good stuff, then add to it to make it even better for film.

  175. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Littlefinger character is one that needs to stay mysterious. To keep people guessing what is his deal.

    Right! I don’t think I figured out LF was running the stuff behind the scenes so much until AFFC. Then I looked back and realized how he’d been playing so hard in the background, but keeping it low profile. This LF too out in the open is too boring.

  176. gurgi
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    I no longer tell friends to watch. I am pretty disappointed in the show so far. If I add up all the things I dislike it becomes rather a enormous list. Most having to do with all the artistic license that D and D decided to take. I think the material was too much for them and they have failed in their many many character motivational changes.

    I will keep watching because I must. I read the first book the second year after it came out. I just read the rest about three or four years ago. I have the audiobooks and have been waiting for the show with baited breathe.

    It may please some folks, it may please you. It however does not please me.

    As much as I loved Spartacus I am shocked I find the sex scenes in this to be just awful amateurish tripe.

  177. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Except that the barking sound is heard when we see Ghost from his back, running away from the camera.

    The argument of “animals move their mouths but there is no sound – how weird would that be?” is so exceptionally stupid that it is the only one in that whole post that leaves me completely speechless. Congratulations.

    Except that we’ve already seen Ghost pounce on someone’s chest and growl. It *is* possible for me to address Ghost more broadly. I can refer to his characterization as being consistent over time.

    The fact that he’s already made sound (in a situation like the one I’ve described) serves as a precedent to the bark that’s giving you high blood pressure. It’s pretty clear that Ghost barking serves as an audible cue for the actors – and, by extension – the audience, to ‘address’ Ghost and see what’s up. What’s up happens to be a severed arm in his mouth. Audible cue -> visual payoff. Wow, and they told me that filmmaking was just one juxtaposition after another!

    The Smiling Knight: Nobody expects a wolf that barks like a dog either.
    And it is easy here. There were countless opportunities to mention that Jons direwolf is a silent one. There were countless opportunities to show him – all missed because of the incompetence of those creating the show.

    What youre trying to say here is that the first mistake someohow makes the other one – not a mistake?
    Well no.

    The bond between the Starks and heir direwolves is important from the start, it is something that needs to be discreetly woven into the story, something that needs to be set up.
    Otherwise you end up with direwolves in the machine, suddenly jumping out only in the scenes where you absolutely cannot avoid them and none of that subtle connection to the Starks visible or guessed at, understood.

    I expect wolves to bark like dogs, but then again I watch more television series narrated by David Attenborough than you do.

    The bond is important. It’s really not all that significant early on. Would it be better if they were able to give it more attention? Yes. I’d like a few more shots where we simply see the Starks and the wolves together. This was managed a bit better earlier on, whereas the last few episodes (which are, by and large, the better episodes released thus far) have been light on the Direwolves. I don’t find it quite as big of a tragedy as you seem to, and I don’t think the show is worse off for it. The show has a lot more that needs to be done in a very short amount of time. It’s working for me. It’s clearly not working for you. I’m not afraid about how the direwolves are going to be handled in the future. While what we’ve been given isn’t “ideal” it’s also much better than I feared. I’m satisfied.

    You seem to hate the show. Sorry about that. You must be let down. Oh well.

    The Smiling Knight: Indeed, how weird it would be for some character to comment on Ghost silence – in this series of all? Characters commenting on some part of the plot or story or character exposition? Shocking!

    And then, even after “its not that big of a deal”, we should get that comment sometime later on – after he has been barking and growling around? Makes perfect sense.
    Just about as much as the rest of that post of yours.

    The facetious point being made is that if it’s so important for Ghost to be characterized in this way, maybe the writers can throw you a bone (har har) and make some passing reference to him being ‘quieter than the others’ later on. Sorry that the part where I suggested it might let “you all feel vindicated” was lost on you in consequence of your desperate need to find a foothold in what’s increasingly becoming more of fevered display of attachment to inflexible (and inevitably unsuccessful) ideas about filmmaking and less of a worthwhile discussion.

    As with the last thread, we have no reason to continue this.

    Now, if anyone else would like to have a more civil discussion about the show…

  178. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    LOL well said sir. Not too surprising that someone who chose the moniker of the smiling knight would be less than civil and would be as you say “fevered”. You made my wife and I laugh so thanks for that.

  179. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Except that the barking sound is heard when we see Ghost from his back, running away from the camera.

    The part that makes me sickest is when I think that they probably added the bark in in post-production sound editing – like they saw the shot of the white creature running silently, and some non-book reader technician thought : This looks kind of weird – let’s add some barks” and then congratulated themselves with some more 5 hour energy drinks. Oh well, I guess Bryan Cogman couldn’t be everywhere. I hope he makes himself some good deputies for the next Season to help him watch this stuff.

    And the point I am trying to make is not just that ‘oh, it’s a dog, the dog barked, big deal’, it’s again the producers have messed with the magical connection the Stark/Snow children have with their wolves, and are messing up the magical characteristics that go with those wolves. Ghost is silent, but it’s not because he’s shy, it’s part of his magical trait. I always saw it as the Gods commenting on the silence surrounding Jon’s parentage and background. Ghost was silent because of the mystery surrounding Jon. I am expecting that in the future, when Jon learns the truth about his parents, Ghost will howl.. It’s hard to have the magical creatures only half-done.

    I understand why it happened, I understand they got dogs that were hard to work with and didn’t obey, and by the time they figured it out it was too late for CGI. But I think it’s important we keep dinging them for it, because it S2. they should either get it right or drop it completely.

  180. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    The Smiling Knight,
    I swear, if you watch the scene with Jon asking Ghost to come to him, you can see the frustration on his face, and the hatred for that damned wolfish dog that did not do what they needed it to …LOL

    Yeah Ive noticed that “give me the bloody hand!” look from Harrington, :P

    They blew it on the Direwolves for S. 1 – it’s blown, we get what we get, we can only hope they get a CGI budget for them for S. 2.But for me, S1. Direwolves, the show totally missed the boat, and for whatever reason, had to ruin the magica connection between the Stark children and their wolves.Oh well. we shall see if S. 2 gets any better.

    I guess the only good thing about giving the “direwolves” so little screen presence now is that it leaves enough space for broadening that theme in the next season.
    I wont be holding my breath for it though.

    purplejilly: Right!I don’t think I figured out LF was running the stuff behind the scenes so much until AFFC.Then I looked back and realized how he’d been playing so hard in the background, but keeping it low profile.This LF too out in the open is too boring.

    Right. That is the point of him. To intrigue the readers and viewers and keep us guessing as much as he keeps the other characters in the story guessing. You never know if he is working for someone, for some specific goal – to what end.

    I would think that having something be mysterious is a good thing in that it would keep the viewers coming back for more – but apparently they think differently.

  181. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    dtb,

    Thank you for the kind words. I think that this is just an area where we’ll inevitably disagree. For me, the scenes work because the subtext works. It’s something I can’t help but pick up on.

    For others, the scenes clearly come off as tawdry and excessive. I honestly don’t find the sexuality all that shockingly out of place in Martin’s world.

    I do think that the writers are exploring themes and recurrent situational drama far more than people are giving them credit for. I believe these scenes serve specific functions. And I do think there’s an argument to be made – regardless of how successful they are – that the production team isn’t simply trying to “prove” themselves by twisting George R.R. Martin’s story with sexuality until it no longer resembles itself. Maybe you disagree with me, and that’s fine. It’s one thing, however, to say a scene doesn’t work. It’s another thing to attribute the scene’s motivation to “corrupting forces” within the production team (not what you’re doing, necessarily, but it seems to be the tone that some people are taking).

    I will say this about The Wire: with the exception of Kima and Jimmy (and then, only as motifs – not themes – within their lives), I don’t think the topic of sex is explored all that fully.

  182. Jesper Molbo
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    I have followed this site since its first post, read most of the comments too, on everything. I am as big a fan of both books and show as you will find. I have absolutely loved the devotion and excitement here, its great to have a place where people share the geek-gasms that most people in my daily life don’t get.

    That’s why its really sad for me to say, i will have to stop reading comments here from now on. At least on episode threads. To me, this show is awesome. A greater adaptation than anyone could have ever hoped for. However, about half the people in these threads seem to forget this to complain, nitpick and flat out bitch about every single detail that does not match their view of the books. It makes me sad and it makes me angry, to the point where its messing with my enjoyment of this experience, and i will no longer have that.

    Fortunately, i have now found this excitement in other forums. The ironic part? Its i forums about games, football etc, where 90% of the posters are non-readers enjoying the hell out of an awesome show.

  183. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:31 am | Permalink

    Jesper Molbo,
    I think I would have had a much easier time of this if I had waited, watched the show first, then gone back and read the books later. That way I could have enjoyed the show as the show. But with the books in the back of my head, it makes it so hard to enjoy the show by itself..

  184. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer: Except that we’ve already seen Ghost pounce on someone’s chest and growl. It *is* possible for me to address Ghost more broadly. I can refer to his characterization as being consistent over time.

    Consistent as a one big mistake that keeps rolling on.

    The fact that he’s already made sound (in a situation like the one I’ve described) serves as a precedent to the bark that’s giving you high blood pressure. It’s pretty clear that Ghost barking serves as an audible cue for the actors – and, by extension – the audience, to ‘address’ Ghost and see what’s up. What’s up happens to be a severed arm in his mouth. Audible cue -> visual payoff.

    Wong again.
    He barks, runs off and then we get the whole Oath thing and only then he returns with the hand.

    Audible cue for the actors??
    Im quite speechless on that particular point, again.

    My blood pressure is fine, btw. Are you unable to post a single post without these pathetic attempts at… what exactly?

    I expect wolves to bark like dogs, but then again I watch more television series narrated by David Attenborough than you do.

    I seriously doubt that.
    You may expect anything you wish btw but that doesnt make it any more true or any less silly or addresses my arguments about this issue in any way.

    The bond is important. It’s really not all that significant early on. Would it be better if they were able to give it more attention? Yes.

    Oxymoron much?

    I’d like a few more shots where we simply see the Starks and the wolves together.

    Why? its isnt that big of a deal.

    I don’t find it quite as big of a tragedy as you seem to, and I don’t think the show is worse off for it.

    i find it a mistake, not a tragedy.
    Since it is an important part of the Starks story – yes, the show is worse for it.

    You seem to hate the show. Sorry about that. You must be let down. Oh well.

    Youre not guessing very well what i “seem” to think, i suggest you lay off it.
    Your track record is abysmal.

    The facetious point being made is that if it’s so important for Ghost to be characterized in this way, maybe the writers can throw you a bone (har har) and make some passing reference to him being ‘quieter than the others’ later on.

    har, har.

    Sorry that the part where I suggested it might let “you all feel vindicated” was lost on you in consequence of your desperate need to find a foothold in what’s increasingly becoming more of fevered display of attachment to inflexible (and inevitably unsuccessful) ideas about filmmaking and less of a worthwhile discussion.

    The only thing lost on me was any kind of logic in that sentence.
    As for “feverish displays” and “desperation” – i think your posting speaks volumes in that regard.

    As with the last thread, we have no reason to continue this.

    Sure we do buddy.

    Now, if anyone else would like to have a more civil discussion about the show…

    haha ha.

  185. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    Jesper Molbo,

    I know that we geeks have a horrible habit of needing to be king of the castle and be right all the time. We have the really poor need to make sure everyone knows that we know as much as there is to know about what we know (lol sorry) but don’t give up on us sir! We’re not all horrible to each other.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIAnkrPgTvY

    :)

  186. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:39 am | Permalink

    I heard Ghost breathing. Please call the doctors. I can’t take it anymore.

    Also, how about Drogo’s speech? So much more than I could have hoped for. Jason Momoa brought it to the table and then picked up the table and smashed it over my contented head.

    It’s a good thing I don’t have an iron suit, because that vicious mofo is ready to start knocking targets.

  187. DeadAngel
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    ok good episode all in all ,but why did they feel they had to cut out the part of Sansa tadling on her father to Cercei? I am not usually nitpicky about changes but this has been driving me crazy. it is a pivotal moment where i go from disliking Sansa to hating her, and thinking she deserves everything which befalls her later. now with this scene gone i feel the viewers might not view Sansa in the same light and i dislike the major change that was done here… anyone else pissed by this?

  188. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    A PSA from Ghost http://vimeo.com/53969
    *translation: “stop being so bitchy because I decided to make a sound. maybe I’m not as mute as you think. Maybe I just hold off saying something till I have something to say. There was snow. My paw got cold. Get over it humans”

  189. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Well I’m glad to see that the early release hasn’t put a damper on The Smiling Knight’s resolve to bitch about everything in the show!

  190. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    DeadAngel,

    Ahhh remember we don’t learn about that little factoid until a bit later. you are right that it needs to be there but it isn’t something we’ll see for a bit. :)

  191. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I’m starting to think he’s been lying to us this whole time about all of that smiling.

    …. :( :( :( :( :(

  192. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:53 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    LOL. Well smote sir

  193. DeadAngel
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:54 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    Well if my memory serves me correctly and it has been over a year since my last reread of the series, shouldn’t it have been what happened when Sansa and Arya were told to pack? Sansa goes to Cercei and tells her that Ned wants to make me leave, please don’t let him force me to leave i want to marry joff ect…

    You think they will just add it as an aside later? they have not gone back chronologically in the series as of yet, and it seems like a weird time to star doing so now with that scene.

  194. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:00 am | Permalink

    DeadAngel,

    no no you are very correct in what happens. We the readers (viewers) aren’t told until a bit later though. Sansa most definately does as you say she does and believe me my wife and I hate her deeply too it just happens without us seeing it. If I remember correctly we don’t find out about it until sansa is brought before the council to be told that ned has been arrested and branded a traitor…I think. gonna read and listen to that chapter again tonight to be sure.

  195. Cerb
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    Adrian: She already did show up. That was her with Ros

    She changed alot then. Don’t think that’s Sibel.

  196. Josh
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    I’m sorry but I think people really need to step back and realize what they’re bitching about when we are actually having a “Barkgate”. Come on….isn’t that a little uh…pathetic? It’s such a tiny detail, that doesn’t add or subtract anything from the show.

  197. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:11 am | Permalink

    I don’t understand why people are complaining that we are taking issue with the minor fact that Ghost is supposed to be silent?! I could care less about LesboGate. It’s just that Ghosts character is a PART of Jon’s. I would call anyone out that said Jon was a Minor part of the story. It’s just plain lazy that they didn’t put one piece of dialogue in mentioning Ghost’s silence. That’s all I have to say in the matter.

  198. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    Josh,

    and barkgate is a terrible word. no flow. doesn’t roll off the tongue at all.

  199. Kaldor
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    CZ: I thought the confiding in the whores scene was too long just to explain his obcession with Cat. But doesn’t he put the knife to Ned’s throat in the book? I”m pretty sure he does.

    who cares what’s in any book. it’s a tv series and can only be judged as that.

  200. greenie88
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    Jesper Molbo,

    The one thing about GRRM’s work is how even among the biggest fans there is such a wide variance in which characters people are drawn to.

    Some can’t stand Tyrion…I love him.
    Some love Sansa..I can’t stand her and still think she is a dimwit, self-centered pawn who is destined to do some very unhonorable things in the future (my prediction–she is asked to kill Robert to pave the way to her “queenship”)
    I never found the Hound a very compelling character.
    Catelyn never got on my nerves as much as some people..then again I kind of skimmed over the passages where she was like “oh, poor me..my sons..my daughters”..but her grief was very believable to me.
    I’m not a big Dany fan, I always felt she chapters were the most unbelievable (well, they do have the biggest fantasy aspects about them)
    I loved the intrigue and plotting around KL–others are turned off by it.
    Arya I adore–yet others are turned off by her coldheartedness and bloodthirsty motives.
    I’ve even see Cersei apologists!!!! Yuck.
    I think there are a lot of likeable, heroic characters to follow–I’ve seen book haters complain they put the book down because they didn’t find anybody likeable which makes me scratch my head.

    So given the wide variances in likes/dislikes among devoted fans, I’m not surprised there is a lot of disagreement upon whether a certain character is being portrayed accurately or not. About 60 to 80 percent of each episode consists of scenes and dialogue straight out of the book. The rest are made up scenes and they are very hit and miss. Robert/Cersei I thought was excellent. Varys/Littlefinger and Loras/Renly were acceptable and I felt didn’t stray too much from the storyline. Littlefinger/Ros just struck a sour note to me–the last 3 episodes were humming along nicely and suddenly we have an out-of-character confession from Littlefinger blabbing his deepest, darkest motives to a couple of strangers. That’s not the Littlefinger we know from the book.

    In a way I do kind of sympathize with the writers though–in the books we do know the history of Cat and Petyr. We do know Petyr was deeply in love with Cat. And given where the story next season goes and thereafter..Petyr relationship with the other Tully’s is a major deal. It seems like the writers want to drive home exposition by repeating it 2 or 3 times so the watchers pick up on it. You would be surprised about how many non-book readers watching the series have already forgotten that Petyr was almost killed in a duel with Brandon (um..Brandon who?? Stark? Who’s that?). So for the writers–Petyr doesn’t have many soundboards to talk to when it comes to exposition right now–(without revealing who is really working for a Petyr). Whores are an easy out. Men confide in whores, and in the past whores have made great spies but in general call girls and whores are respectful of their clients privacy (despite Ros talking about Tyrion to Theon–bad form Ros!). And Catelyn would only talk about things from her point of view (which would be incomplete since she doesn’t know some things). I do think next week we get a Lysa/Catelyn heart to heart chat and I wouldn’t be surprised if the writers interject some Petyr gossip in there.

    All said-I don’t think the exposition given in that scene was all that important–at least it would have been more tolerable if placed in next weeks episode. It telegraphed Petyr’s betrayal. As a matter of fact, I kind of wonder if this scene was slated for next week and they moved it. I liked the rest of the episode though. Tyrion gutting a stag in his tent..meh. I can see the argument he should be a table with a big map..maybe writing some raven letters. Maybe that’s what we will get when Tyrion does his daddy scene–or maybe Tywin will be practicing taxidermy this time..who knows. But the scene wasn’t ruined for me totally–not as big a sour note as Petyr/Ros.

    And Ghost barking–honestly, I couldn’t care less. Maybe the sound editors screwed up, who knows. But a non-quiet Ghost isn’t going to destroy any plotline–not like Robert’s..ahem..brown hair.

  201. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Kaldor,

    Whereas I agree that we could all be a bit less judgemental I have to disagree on the point you make a bit. For most shows I would totally agree but as this show is based on something else it would be impossible to completely remove it from what its based on. We judge movies based on books in the same way. Yes they are separate entities but they are also indelibly connected. If we utterly disregarded the source material we’d have “starks in space” (I’d totally watch that).

  202. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    purplejilly: The part that makes me sickest is when I think that they probably added the bark in in post-production sound editing – like they saw the shot of the white creature running silently, and some non-book reader technician thought : This looks kind of weird – let’s add some barks” and then congratulated themselves with some more 5 hour energy drinks.Oh well, I guess Bryan Cogman couldn’t be everywhere.I hope he makes himself some good deputies for the next Season to help him watch this stuff.

    Id rather not think about precise reason for that at all.

    purplejilly
    And the point I am trying to make is not just that ‘oh, it’s a dog, the dog barked, big deal’, it’s again the producers have messed with the magical connection the Stark/Snow children have with their wolves, and are messing up the magical characteristics that go with those wolves.Ghost is silent, but it’s not because he’s shy, it’s part of his magical trait. I always saw it as the Gods commenting on the silence surrounding Jon’s parentage and background.Ghost was silent because of the mystery surrounding Jon.I am expecting that in the future, when Jon learns the truth about his parents, Ghost will howl..It’s hard to have the magical creatures only half-done.

    I understand why it happened, I understand they got dogs that were hard to work with and didn’t obey, and by the time they figured it out it was too late for CGI.But I think it’s important we keep dinging them for it, because it S2. they should either get it right or drop it completely.

    Interesting interpretation of Ghost silence.
    I never thought of it that way precisely.
    To me it was more of a “one of the pack but different” symbolism – which is similar i admit, but doesnt deal with that particular silence surrounding the parentage directly.
    Although it could very well be another symbolic link.

    Since there are many.
    Ghost was the only one of the pups that had his eyes opened, while the rest were still blind.
    As he has no voice, neither does Jon in matters related to Stark family.
    He is one of them , but an outsider.

    And he sees, as Ghost sees.
    Or is made to see, life as it really is, sooner than his siblings.
    He gets to see the real threat sooner then the rest. While they waste their time in Game of thrones he knows what the real danger is.
    He sees the real deal of the reality of the Nights Watch and learns to accept it and change himself accordingly.

    He sees Tyrion as Tyrion Lannister. Not a dwarf.
    He accepts his hard lessons because he sees the truth in them.

    Generally, Jon as a character exhibits seeing and understanding the truth, regardless is it about the greater context of the story or about his personal reality and position.
    He exhibits the same throughout his story, all the way up to Stannis and his false sword.

    He is black as Ghost is white. Both belonging to the Old Gods.

  203. gurgi
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:19 am | Permalink

    DeadAngel,

    It fits completely with D and D. They seem to really have a fondness for dumping all the good stuff and making up silly sex scenes and changing peoples basic motivations.

  204. greenie88
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    DeadAngel,

    The Cersei/Sansa meeting is revealed in the first Sansa chapter AFTER Ned is imprisoned when Cersei mentions the meeting. There was no ‘realtime’ description of the meeting by GRRM in a Sansa–just references to the meeting.

  205. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:22 am | Permalink

    Drfunk:
    The show has exceeded my expectation by a mile.Is it a perfect adaptation? This is where everyone seems to get their panties in a knot.I have OCD on some of the little details of the book myself but *Joker voice* “why so serious?”If the new TV viewers wanted our opinion on stuff they’d ask for it.I bet most of them are thoroughly enjoying the show as is without us (readers) comparing out e-peen knowledge of Westeros.

    This show has been a learning experience for everyone.From the actors to the producers.Call me optimistic but I’ve got a good feeling that D&D learned a lot from this season (like their decision to go real dogs vs CGI which might get fixed for s2).To the amount of sexposition (as this seems to be a genuine concern) being brought out etc.. Just like our fav characters in the show are developing on and off screen, this show needs time before it really gels together.Season two should become much better overall.

    If you’re still pms’ing hard due to some book detail which was poorly transitioned, please take some time to look at this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUS2LSJR22k

    The most epic scene with an equivalent epic soundtrack will make everything alright.(having some beer while you watch it is even better).

    PS: Anyone else got a huge boner after Drogo’s speech?I’m not even gay (not that there’s anything wrong with that) man I miss Seinfeld…

    lol…I’m a total lurker and hardly ever post…but I just had to say that I love you for giving me that video. After the raging boner I got from Drogo’s speech (I’m not gay either, but that sweaty man screaming in that strange tongue…I mean, you’d have to be crazy NOT to be turned on), seeing four minutes of Joffrey face-pwnage really made this a hard night for my loins (pun intended).

    Anyway, about the episode: I watch every week with a group of friends, two of whom have yet to read the books. The Littlefinger sexposition was simply awkward to watch around them. That, for me, is a big reason I disliked it. Also, I agree that the HBO Littlefinger is too pimp, not enough brilliant Master of Coin. Aiden Gillen does such a good job playing him that I can’t complain too much, however.

    I loved Tywin skinning his own stag. Someone pointed out that that was a prestigious thing for a lord to do and that if it were a sheep, he wouldn’t be doing it…that’s exactly how I felt. If there’s one massively rich lord that would skin his own stag for supper, I’d say it’s Tywin Lannister. And doing it in the presence of others (even if it is his own son) makes it more likely in my head.

    Brilliant episode, I thought. Can’t wait for next week.

  206. Fabian Schneider
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    Langkard:
    Adrian,

    You do know that this is the thread for people who have actually read the books, right?The thread for those who haven’t is over there —>>

    It’s not about a dog barking. It’s about a wolf barking.Yes, wolves do bark – very rarely.When startled.When raised in captivity around dogs who bark.That’s about it.The don’t bark when they go racing off into the woods.This wolf did.And this just isn’t any wolf. It’s a direwolf named Ghost.It’s Ghost.Not Scooby Doo.Ghost wasn’t just named for his color.Those who have read the books know this.

    Tywin is protrayed throughout the books as obscenely rich.Consciously rich.His armor is golded and jeweled.His cloak is clasked with twin golden lions on the shoulders. His horse is caparisoned in silks and gold. Every single scene with him in the books displays his power and wealth. And yet, he was in his own tent pulling entrails from a dead animal?Have you ever done that?Do you even have the slightest clue what that smells like?Go visit an abattoir sometime.Again, this thread is for those who have read the books.

    As for the wolf barking – yes, it is a weird sound effect. Then again, we could all comment on cgi glitches and colouring discrepancies of the same magnitude and we’d be so busy we wouldn’t even need to watch the bloody series. I’m with greenie88 on this one – couldn’t care less.

    Concerning Tywin – so does wealth exempt someone from doing manual labour? I don’t think Tywin has ever been characterized as hands-off boss or squeamish. He is also not as arrogant as his children. The reason he held his wealth and his family’s immense power seems to be to have been pragmatism, something he displays several times in the books. In addition to that – a noble who doesn’t skin his own prey? He’d be the laughingstock of Westeros, and that’s something even he couldn’t afford.

  207. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    afireinside30x,

    So true. Tywin has been putting the fear of the gods into people since he was 13. He’s totally someone who needs no man to bring down a stag for him nor is he a pretty lordling who is afraid to get his hand bloody. this absolutely fits his character.

  208. Kaldor
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow: If we utterly disregarded the source material we’d have “starks in space” (I’d totally watch that)

    if “starks in space” where a good tv series, that would be fine with me :)
    also, us bookreaders would be the only ones noticing the changes. but we’re not the ones the series is made for. hbo must address a general broad audience to earn a few pennies… otherwise they wouldn’t do it at all.

  209. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:31 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    Well I’m glad to see that the early release hasn’t put a damper on The Smiling Knight’s resolve to bitch about everything in the show!

    Nor has it dampered anyone bitching about my bitching.

    Could i mayhap ask for a bit of precision, however?
    Is it “everything”? Truly?

  210. m4st4
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:31 am | Permalink

    That whore needs to go! I was SO, SO mad after that scene with Littlefinger… Spoiled, naive, in-your-face and plain stupid way to tell us more about Petyr. Pissed!

    …>_<

    I mean, girl is PRETTY, no doubt, but man… So pissed. I'm glad I did 6&7 last week so now I'm ready for some more. It's starting to get painly obvious – GRRM is GRRM, I want my 'Dance' (but will continue to look for the bright sides of this, in every other way, very good series).

  211. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    Wow… what to say? I sound like a broken record, but I like each episode more than the last.

    This week’s episode was maybe a little slower than the last two (i.e. less fighting), but I think that’s my favourite type of episode (along the lines of Episodes 3 and 4). Lots of intrigue, amazing acting, fantastic dialogue, etc. And definitely the craziest cliffhanger ending so far.

    Tywin seemed a little different from the book; my friend and I both felt he should have been more cool and aloof… but then we realized that HBO is probably doing the same thing they did with Renly, showing Tywin in private, discussing his concerns for the Lannister legacy. Plus, Jaime’s acting was great and the deer-skinning was just bad-ass.

    The lesbian/Littlefinger exposition scene was definitely over the top. I’m not sure, but it MAY just have been the most hardcore sex scene I’ve seen in an HBO show (“play with her ass”, LOL!). It was still cool to hear LF’s backstory, but my friend had a point when he said “this scene feels like a waste of time”.

    Otherwise, everything was brilliant. I had really missed The Wall, so it was great to see it again. I loved Kit’s acting when Jon Snow got placed with the Stewards. The Maester Aemon scene was just hilarious! The wineseller stuff was well done. Robert’s death bed was sad, and well acted. Khal Drogo’s oath was way more passionate and exciting than I expected (Jason Momoa finally got a chance to shine!). And the final scene, with the betrayal of Ned, was pretty near perfect (at least compared to how I imagined it). Probably the best cliffhanger yet! If I hadn’t read the books, I’d be going crazy to find out what happens next week!

  212. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    gurgi,

    Which characters have had their motivations changed?

  213. obsidian
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    Charles Dance is wonderful. I thought the stag dressing was a bit heavy handed, but I can live with it. I would like to remind D&D ( if only I could ), before they go on with Really Spelling It Out , that we can put 2&2 together . Tywin’s lines to Jaime on their own reveal that he isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty. But as someone else pointed out ,I doubt he’d want that stench in his tent.

    Ned & Robert – loved it. Ned & Cersei – almost as good. The Wall – excellent as usual.

    Drogo , Dany & Jorah – more excellence. Show Drogo has won me over more than Book Drogo ever did, even if I wish the costumes were a bit more sophisticated.

    Joffrey’s true evil really begins to come out..

    Theon & Osha – was more truly revealing, character-wise , than Theon & Ros.

    But I feel really robbed in regard to Littlefinger. The reveal comes far too early .. and the Sexposition was really heavy-handed . Though he clearly knows men talk to whores ( perhaps the main reason he owns a couple of brothels, in spite of his quip about whores rarely sinking)..he would never reveal himself in that way. He would also know that occasionally whores talk to men..for pay..or they may already be in someone else’s employ. As has been pointed out Littlefinger is not a pimp..that’s perhaps the least among his enterprises , and I hate to see him being written so broadly , when he was so enigmatic in the books.

    There have been some long rationalizations of this scene posted ,but they are just rationalizations. The point is , the scene was completely unnecessary. There was no need to reveal so much about LF so soon, and I agree it did rob the throne room scene of much of it’s shock value.

    Every time someone mentions that some of the the sex may be overdone, there are those who cry “Prudery !’ and “What about the Violence ?” and launch into long explanations, that usually require all sorts of pre-suppositions ,of why it’s so right.
    ( See :beautifully decorated ). To which I’m tempted to reply grow up. No-one has said there shouldn’t be any sex, everyone expected there would be a goodly amount. The violence was also expected, but by comparison , it’s very brief , so the two are not a good comparison.

    I know people ( some book readers, some not , but all intelligent generally well read people) who will be at least disappointed and possibly turned right off by tonight’s show ,because although they are not turned off by sex and violence they are turned off by gratuitousness. You can say perhaps they should watch something else, but I don’t think D&D will be thrilled if their audience is eventually reduced to those who are tuning in specifically for sex ( as explicit as the law will allow ) and more and more violence. They could have had them for the price of True Blood.

  214. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    Kaldor,

    fair point sir though I think the show is partly for us bookreaders too. I mean lets face it, the overwhelming amount of fans of the books are partly the reason why they greenlit the show in the first place. They knew they would have a good base to build on. All they had to do was come here and see how awesome we all were and bingo bango bongo…. Green light. But I agree with the spirit of your original post. No need for so much bitching when this show is (in my opinion at least) one of the best (if not THE BEST) handled when it comes to moving from one media to the next while staying true in most respects to what it’s based on. Lets all just compare the way the harry potter movies were dealt with to how thrones is being dealt with. We’re getting a much better handling from people who obviously know the books very well and care about the story.

  215. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:43 am | Permalink

    Also, does anyone else think that Sean Bean and Mark Addy completely nail their respective roles when they have scenes together? I mean, they’re great apart (Mark Addy, especially. Man, that guy IS Robert!), but it seems like they’re all the more stronger when they’re together. Their chemistry is perfect. I completely believe that they’re old childhood friends and that the only person Robert ever loved more than Ned is Lyanna.

    Jess Snow,

    Right on!

  216. Jeda
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    That was a good episode! My wife didn’t see the last part come in ;-) As for the sex scene, just getting used to how HBO do things now, still very much within the spirit of the book though. And it went quicker than Viserys in the bath talking about dragons or Loras and Renly, but maybe that’s just because as hetero male I found it more entertaining :-) Anyway, I was genuily impressed by Jack Gleeson acting as Joffrey, this is a very scaring king from day 1! Looking forward for more Joffrey out of his head… and expecting a lot from the last 3 episodes …

  217. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:49 am | Permalink

    afireinside30x,

    For sure! You totally get that they were each the brother that they never had (both have brothers obviously but they are all so very different with different desires/personalities/drives etc) Ned’s face as he realizes that Robert is going to die and that not only will his best friend and brother be gone but he’ll be left alone in a foreign dangerous place dealing with the same intrigue that drove Robert to become what he was and eventually killed him is absolutely heartbreaking. Neither man was made to fill the roles they’ve had to take (Ned and Robert not Sean and Mark) but both knew that once they started down “the king’s road” (sorry) there was no turning back.

  218. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Loved it! I was hemming and hawing as to whether or not this was the best episode yet. I still think episode 6 edges it out by a smidge. But it’s a narrow margin, and Drogo almost picked me up bodily and hurled me over to the other side. What a fantastic fucking speech. Though I’ll need to re-watch to see whether or not the female Dothraki cheered very loudly when Dogo said he’d rape the women.

    Having given it some thought, here’s where I come out on some of the trending arguments:

    The NousWanderer camp is right about Littlefinger’s sexposition. I wouldn’t have expected something like that watching, say, The Pacific, but Westeros is a world of Myrish swamps and aching loins. In-your-face sex is very much a part of GRRM’s lexicon. And maybe I’ve seen too much soft-core porn on Skinemax (Forbidden Science, anyone? For some reason I’m not allowed to add Noelle DuBois to my celebrity exemption list, and that’s just wrong) … but that brothel scene was not pornographic. It was actually kind of comedic. I was chuckling at the scene while NousDub was happily fapping away. Littlefinger the conductor! Gillen is an artist, just to be able to keep a straight face.

    The Smiling Knight camp (which may be an army of one-and-a-half) is right about barking Ghost. From a never-read-the-books standpoint? Sure, it’s not noticeable. The only people that did notice it were fans of the series. And for me it’s not about whether wolves bark, it’s about whether Ghost barks. I didn’t like him growling at Rast, and I don’t like him merrily yapping his way into the woods. Worse was the fact that they added the barking in post-production. That just tells me they missed the boat with the character of Ghost completely. Now to be fair, I can’t imagine D&D actually ordering it. With a gazillion other details to look after, I imagine some post-production peon who understands maybe 80% of the story just did it without knowing right from wrong.

    Jilly said it: they’ve basically screwed it with the pooches. The Northern Inuits were basically 75% fail. No need to beat on it… and I’m going to hedge my bets and say they don’t repeat the mistake by bringing back the same dogs (digitally enhanced or not) in season two.

    But again: minor, minor quibbles. I won’t ever bitch that an A show should be an A+.

    Also, I’m going to hire NousWanderer. For something. Some day. I have no idea what, but he’s hired.

  219. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:52 am | Permalink

    isn’t so much nicer when we’re all having conversations and not sniping at each other like children? :)

  220. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:55 am | Permalink

    As a member of the Nouswanderer camp I second a job for our fearless and well spoken leader :D

  221. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    Oh, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau completely stole Charles Dance’s introductory scene on strength of subtext alone. He may turn out to be the best hire yet, and that’s saying something. Jaime freaking Lannister.

  222. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Indeed. The look on Jaime’s face mirrors the way I think most men feel around their fathers. No matter how old you get dad can still make you feel like a nervous boy who just wants to make him proud sometimes. Every episode I watch I see him fleshing out the character more and more and I’m constantly impressed.

  223. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    You took the words out of my mouth. Also, when Robert asks Ned to hand him the paper so that he can sign his name, Ned dabs the quill into the ink for him. Now granted, that does seem like something anyone would do for a man on his death bed, but to me that is just a very subtle gesture on Ned’s part and it reveals just how much Ned cares about this man.

    Or maybe I’m reading too much into it. Who cares? Either way, they’re freaking perfect! :)

  224. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:04 am | Permalink

    I’m a straight guy, so it’s hard for me to admit this but…here goes:

    I liked the Renly/Loras gay scene way more than the Ros/random whore scene. The man-on-man love scene felt way more necessary in setting up future events than the Littlefinger sexposition. Don’t get me wrong, Aiden Gillen nails every scene he’s in, but that scene had way too much nailing (that’s my attempt at humor).

    One good thing that came from that scene, however, is Littlefinger saying, “Play with her ass.” I can see that becoming a catch phrase among us fans. When an episode isn’t especially to our liking…”It would have been better if he’d have played with her ass.” An episode doesn’t have enough action: “Too much dialogue, not enough ass-play.”

  225. The_Rabbit01
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:11 am | Permalink

    Confession time:
    Yes, I have been cheating..not honorable I know.
    Watched it on Saturday, watched twice in fact.

    Now, scene by scene:
    Tywin – hell yes! what a great casting decision. I do not mind the stag and Tywin s dirty, bloody hands – he ll get more bloody later on – great foreshadowing.
    Liked also NCW s change in that scene – a boy indeed, not a man.

    Cersei and Ned – one word = classic!

    Petyr and his girls = yes, this the first scene in series so far, that I actually did not like it. Over the top.

    The Wall – absolutely adorable. Fanastic acting from Bradley and Harington.

    Ghost barked? – when and where?

    Dany – it is good, I find it more interesting than I was reading the book for the first time.

    King s death: I ll miss Mark Addy – he gave the life to the Demon of the Trident in the way I have not dare to hope.
    Curtain call for Mark!

    Finally the last scene:
    It was surreal, terrible and great in the same time – from Cersei to Joff – from Hound to ser Barristan, from Gold Cloaks to Stark Guards, from poor Ned to Littlefinger.

    yes, I have watched already the preview of EP 8…I can not wait next Monday!

    Holy shit!

  226. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:11 am | Permalink

    afireinside30x,

    I’ve grown up with and around gay men my entire life so the Loras/Renly scene didn’t bother me at all. I found it very real and sincere even. my one thing with the scene and its come up anytime someone has gone down on someone else is the incessant and far too loud slurping sounds that are brought in. What the hell is goin on down there? Why in the name of the gods is it so wet? oh and I hope you’re right about the “play with the ass” becoming a catch phrase. I haven’t stopped laughing yet . well done my friend

  227. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    AFI30x,

    Stop playing with Jess’s ass! She’s a Snow. This is beneath you.

    Always support the bottom.

  228. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:20 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    LOL this ass is totes male. so thanks for asking him to stop… I think. Always support the bottom indeed… and beyond that I could be the bastard of a king, you never know. Robert made the eight afterall and I do have a magnificent beard…just sayin. and as a snow I’d imagine I’m cold more often than not and warm hands are always welcome ;)

  229. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:21 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: The NousWanderer camp is right about Littlefinger’s sexposition. I wouldn’t have expected something like that watching, say, The Pacific, but Westeros is a world of Myrish swamps and aching loins. In-your-face sex is very much a part of GRRM’s lexicon. And maybe I’ve seen too much soft-core porn on Skinemax (Forbidden Science, anyone? For some reason I’m not allowed to add Noelle DuBois to my celebrity exemption list, and that’s just wrong) … but that brothel scene was not pornographic. It was actually kind of comedic. I was chuckling at the scene while NousDub was happily fapping away. Littlefinger the conductor! Gillen is an artist, just to be able to keep a straight face.

    For the record, I wasn’t actually fapping away (OR WAS I?). It’s just that Esmé Bianco is eminently fapworthy! I completely agree with you about the scene’s comedic edge, by the by. My gal and I both adored Petyr the Pimp-eteer.

    As for Skinemax – it just can’t hold my attention. Even now, when it’s fully visible. Long gone are the pre-netporn days when a warbling breath of scrambled cable softcore was enough to stoke my budding desire for a week at a time.

    More broadly: I’ll take agreement on this point over agreement about the far more middling and less significant “barkgate”, anyhow. Barkgate is effectively a squabble over a cosmetic detail in the characterization of a symbolic animal sidekick belonging to one of many important characters, whereas whoregate is typically presented as a challenge to very the integrity of the production team.

    I’m not so convinced that the dogs have been a complete failure, really. I have no real, genuine gripes regarding the direwolves. I would have enjoyed seeing them contextualized with the Stark children a bit more (i.e. simply having the wolves present in certain shots (e.g. Bran/Robb in Winterfell)), but I don’t feel that this was essential to the story in any way. It’s really only a noticeable half-concern in episodes five and six. I think that the direwolves are as important to the story as anyone else does, but I’m really not overwhelmed with emotion at the fact that they’ve been a little peripheral up until now. It makes a lot of logistical sense to me that they have, actually. Nobody is putting up nearly as much fuss about RickonStark’s invisibility spell.

    Fire And Blood: Also, I’m going to hire NousWanderer. For something. Some day. I have no idea what, but he’s hired.

    Jess Snow: As a member of the Nouswanderer camp I second a job for our fearless and well spoken leader :D

    In the Game of Jobs, you … nevermind.

    How can I help?

  230. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    Haha…Again, I totally agree. The slurping…WTF? I first noticed it in episode one with Tyrion and Ros, but I sort of felt like that scene was supposed to be comedic and the weird slurps added to that. But with a sincere scene like the Renly/Loras scene, why is it so damn loud? I didn’t hear any loud, wet noises during Littlefinger’s sexposition, and if those sounds are gonna be anywhere, I’d say that’s where they belong.

    I guess that scene also proves that Littlefinger, like the loyal members of House Gatewatch, does indeed support the bottom.

  231. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:24 am | Permalink

    afireinside30x: One good thing that came from that scene, however, is Littlefinger saying, “Play with her ass.” I can see that becoming a catch phrase among us fans. When an episode isn’t especially to our liking…”It would have been better if he’d have played with her ass.” An episode doesn’t have enough action: “Too much dialogue, not enough ass-play.”

    Christian Bale (as Patrick Bateman) did it even better with

    “Don’t just stare at it – eat it.”

    Then again, I am admittedly a deviant fuck.

    http://gyazo.com/cc4dd82e5defd2389a67b5faf6ad6263.png

    Holla at all the American Psycho fans in the joint.

  232. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer:
    As for Skinemax – it just can’t hold my attention. Even now, when it’s fully visible. Long gone are the pre-netporn days when a warbling breath of scrambled cable softcore was enough to stoke my budding desire for a week at a time.

    HA! took me forever to figure out that breast weren’t supposed to go in and out of picture. Searched my wife for years for the ever elusive UHF knob to no avail.

  233. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:29 am | Permalink

    American Psycho had me at the first business card mention. So real.

  234. SugarVampire
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:31 am | Permalink

    Adrian,

    Don’t worry. This is the internet. It is very easy to scroll pass comments one doesn’t want to read.

    BTW, I do agree with you on the part of BarkGate and StagDressingGate. Like others said before, I have read all 4 books multiple times, so far, Ghost being mute has no impact on the storyline.

    Similarly, Tywin fielddressed his kill in the tent could be explained by the fact that he wanted to keep the conversation with his son private. He also wanted to impress upon his son once again that he is ruthless and not afraid to get his hand dirty. He is the richest lord in the realm. If the fielddressing stinks up his tent with expensive furniture, he could get his servant to clean them up or replace them. He didn’t care about material things. All he cares about is power and the fear and respect his family name strikes at the heart of every man in the realm.

  235. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:33 am | Permalink

    This is the true story (TRUE STORY!) of when nobles stop being polite and start getting real…wait wait sorry. Stupid flashback. How, with all the spoofs that are going around, has noone made a “Real World/Game of Thrones” mashup?

  236. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Deviant fuck, eh? We should get a long famously!

    Westerosi Psycho, anyone?

  237. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Future goal: I will not only be employable but will necessitate the existence of a tray of personalized business cards printed in ‘Cyrillian Rail’.

    Wait…is that bone?

    Help.

  238. Adam Wing
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:39 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who saw trepidation in Dany’s eyes when Drogo declared he would kill, burn and rape his way across HER kingdom? That she was just starting to realize exactly what she had unleashed and now couldn’t stop. I mean it was more than satisfaction or ambition written on her face. Maybe she just wanted to jump his bones then and there but I’ve never known Dany to be titillated by the bloody consequences of war.

    I mean, I’m not complaining. Her doubt (if that’s indeed what it was) only adds to an already great character.

  239. NousWanderer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:40 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow:
    This is the true story (TRUE STORY!) of when nobles stop being polite and start getting real…wait wait sorry. Stupid flashback. How, with all the spoofs that are going around, has noone made a “Real World/Game of Thrones” mashup?

    Puck: “King Robert is like, using his fuckin’ boar wound to get attention, man. Like what the fuck do you want me to say? And then there’s fuckin’ Renly, man. Like I come into this place stoked to chill in the throne room and then it’s just Renly just bein’ all fuckin Renly, man. It’s like, all you do is present yourself as gay, young, wannabe-king, man. And then Joff keeps fuckin’ sittin’ in my chair, man. I fuckin’ called that chair. It’s time to do some van damage in here, because that’s who I am.”

    Adam Wing:
    Am I the only one who saw trepidation in Dany’s eyes when Drogo declared he would kill, burn and rape his way across HER kingdom? That she was just starting to realize exactly what she had unleashed and now couldn’t stop. I mean it was more than satisfaction or ambition written on her face. Maybe she just wanted to jump his bones then and there but I’ve never known Dany to be titillated by the bloody consequences of war.

    I must admit that I thought her look bespoke a certain “oh my god, I wish you would split me in two right this very second you proud, beautiful hunk of enraged, barbaric and righteously-just manmeat” impulse, though a little “whoops, look at what I’ve started” might have slipped in.

  240. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    Adam Wing,

    I noticed that a bit too. and she hasn’t even really seen them make war yet…wait till she gets a load of them in full on Dothraki badass mode.

  241. Nathan Oliver
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    On TywinStagGate: Even very rich powerful people have hobbies and interests, sometimes even smelly and dirty ones. How much money does Jay Leno have? Yet he likes to get out and play with his cars, no doubt getting greasy in the process. I mean the freaking KING likes to hunt. Who’s to say Tywin doesn’t like to dress game? It not like he was peeling potatoes for his stew, he was dressing a “noble” prey animal for a hunter.

    I think it was an awesome character introduction.

  242. bunderant
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:44 am | Permalink

    That girl in the sexposition scene can’t be Shae… The actress they got to play her (Sibel Kekilli) is only credited on IMDB for episodes nine and ten (Not to mention that it wouldn’t make much sense for her to be in King’s Landing at this point in time).

  243. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    I feel like if HBO is offering an “I made the eight” shirt, they should also give us one of these:

    http://gyazo.com/4c01ec3b1e80afe1410596f8201d0fd1.png

  244. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Screw you guys man I’m gonna go ride my fuckin bike and be a douchbag to people. I don’t need this show. I don’t need none of you!

    Cersei (private confessional) – He was a dick but I’ll miss him. even if he was a lowborn little bastard. he at least didn’t judge me like all the others. I think they hate me cause I’m beautiful.

    Jon (private confessional) haha no we hate her cause of the whole incest thing. its just creepy man. I thought there were rules. none of use were supposed to have guests…

    Puck runs into the confession booth- No thats just you ya big virgin!

  245. afireinside30x
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    Adam Wing:
    Am I the only one who saw trepidation in Dany’s eyes when Drogo declared he would kill, burn and rape his way across HER kingdom? That she was just starting to realize exactly what she had unleashed and now couldn’t stop. I mean it was more than satisfaction or ambition written on her face. Maybe she just wanted to jump his bones then and there but I’ve never known Dany to be titillated by the bloody consequences of war.

    I mean, I’m not complaining. Her doubt (if that’s indeed what it was) only adds to an already great character.

    I definitely saw a bit of that. And during the preview for episode eight, I saw more of it.

  246. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    afireinside30x,

    This is my new favorite meme ever. So much win on that shirt I can’t even stand it

  247. Jim Higgitt
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Sorry Mike, I wasn’t being serious and I do get your point.

  248. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    Had to work tonight so just gone done watching it and I have to be at work again in 6 hours, but this show is worth the loss of sleep.

    Great episode and the acting is so top notch!! Loved the Khal his speech just rocked, so much passion and the way he and Dany look at each other makes you believe it when they say “My Moon and Stars”. For those people not liking E.C. they are crazy, she is owning this part completely. Dany is one of my top three characters and I love how she is acting it.

    Littlefinger is getting better and he deserves the extra scenes based on what we learn about him in book 3.

    Of course there are some of you who are complaining about the bark and about Ros, but those our such minor quibbles in an episode filled with greatness. I love the books have read them several times, but intentionally didn’t GOT because I didn’t want to be bogged down by my memory of the little details. This has let me just enjoy the show for what it is. For those of you who decided the read GOT again right before the show started did you do it so you could nitpick it to death, please people this show is amazing and enjoy the ride and let go of the petty stuff. The only way any of you would love 100% of it is if you directed it yourself.

    95% of this show is all awesome and that is a major A in my book.

    Have to get to bed but will be back tomorrow to squash more nitpickers if I need to and to extoll the virtues of this fantastic show!!!!

  249. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:53 am | Permalink

    bunderant,

    That and she looks nothing like shae and shae doesn’t come to KL till much later when she comes with gonna be blacked out as a spoiler so why put the name anyway.

  250. gurgi
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    If I had to guess right now I think this show only gets two seasons.

    I cant imagine season after season of back story dropping sex scenes.

    Watching Deadwood of late I think the powers that be in HBO do actually demand dumb back story sex scenes.

    Maybe this is why I have not been able to get past the 4th episode of True Blood?

    Compare and contrast the sex between Spartacus and this show. With Spartacus they stop the acting and just show us a minute of two of sex. Hot steamy sex. They dont usually bore us with endless chatter. HBO has somehow found a way to make two girls having sex boring. By having a damn speech during it. What a waste.

    Anyone wonder how they will mess up the battle scenes? Probably have two people wack swords and then cut to the end. Show a bunch of bodies on the ground cut up and just talk about what happened. If they cant CGI direwolves they wont be able to show napalm like fire, ships blasting apart, large combat scenes.

  251. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    gurgi,

    Don’t get too attached to your Deadwood sir. Those cocksuckers are gonna screw ya in the end. and why all the hate? we had a nice little happy back and forth goin once the smiling knight went to bed.

  252. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:02 am | Permalink

    Just realized there was no Tyrion… then I realized there was no Arya or Sansa!

  253. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Tyrion was probably busy still laughing about his “confession”. Arya was busy being a badass and Sansa was busy just being an ass. Next week buddy next week

  254. Jess Snow
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    Good night all. This has been loads of fun and kept me away from a crippling WoW addiction for a night. We laughed, we cried, there was ass play and bbq. all in all a lovely way to spend an evening :D

  255. SugarVampire
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:17 am | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    I do think that readers of this site are a bit sensitive to criticism. Most of the time I don’t agree with your comments. However, I do think that it is important to have someone like you to put out a point of view that is hyper-protective of the books or hyper-critical about this adaption. (Thanks for spending a good deal of time contributing to the conversations.)

    As I noted before, it is very easy to scroll pass someone’s comments if one get tired of another person’s posts. There is no need to constantly get annoyed by other’s different take of this show. (This is coming from one who read almost all the comments in the majority of the threads.)

    If every posters praise every episode as the greatest things on earth (like the overwelming applauses on Harry Lloyd), threads could become boring after awhile.

    My 2 cents.

  256. gurgi
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:19 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    I do really dislike so much of it. I think by episode five I started to see things just adding up that I couldnt ignore anymore.

    I wish the show luck and hope it does well. I will watch. Maybe I change my mind some.

    Martin never treated us like we were stupid. He left hints and clues but didnt hit us over the head with anything. IF we got it we got it. If we didnt get something right away it became a A-Ha moment later.

    The show is just the opposite. They do think we are stupid and are so heavy handed with so much of the story.

    Screaming from the roof tops that Renly was gay. Little Finger and his pussy training speeches. Showing the Dragon Eggs over and over and over and over. Ext.

  257. Christopher W Daniel
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    I hope they can use some sort of CGI or something to convey a sense of BIG ARMIES.
    The Dokrathi “Horde” is a joke..

  258. Michael
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Best episode yet. Just one brilliant, epic, well-acted scene after another. Not many shows can make magic like this happen with a huge amount of dialogue and lack of action. It should immediately be renewed for as many seasons as they need to complete the series.

  259. Fire And Ice
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    The sex was ridiculous, it was quite disturbing. =.=” I skipped it. I assume I missed nothing important..lol.

  260. Ghost
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    Would it be possible to have two seperate threads for after-show debates. One for the people that want to nitpick each episode to pieces and one for people that want to just share their experiences watching it? This is a genuine request as I love reading what other people think of the show but honestly all this constant negativity over minor details is bringing me down. I’m not adverse to people disagreeing or pointing out things they don’t like but the animosity in the way some people here do it is just too much.

  261. my watch Begins
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    First off I think the show is very good.
    But I find it funny that people are bitching over minor missteps like Ghost barking and Tywin skinning a deer over major things such as Sandor/Sansa’s speech being cut out, the tourney of the hand being underplayed and some other important things being cut completely.

  262. Jeda
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Wow. I couldn’t have said it better! Your post was a pleasure to read. Looks like we’re seeing the show with the same eyes. Ghost’s barking is probably the least important of your post so I am also surprised by the intensity of the debate over it. Especially since wolves do bark. If you listen long enough, you always figure out (at a zoo for example) it’s not dog barking, sometimes a few seconds is enough, but for these few seconds it can be confusing. Ok, there could be an argument that wolves usually only bark to communicate danger or are afraid and when they do it’s not for long. Well, Ghost only barked once or twice if I remember and the next scene shows him coming back with the hand, so maybe he did smell/sense something. To be honest, it’s only because of this thread I started to think about it, but really, it still fits.

  263. Justin
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    I know the people that love the show and the people that hate it all have their opinions for a reason, but I’m beginning to think that it was an extremely good decision not to reread the books before watching. I can’t really remember all the little details (like Ghost barking, bits of cut dialogue) that everyone seems to get caught up on.

    Yeah, they haven’t done the best job with the direwolves. The sex does make it just a little awkward to watch with parents. But man, that last shot with Littlefinger and Ned was absolutely perfect.

  264. feyrband
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    all my friends love drogo and ned both. i think they’ve kind of known ned was screwed from the beginning because of him being the only purely honorable person. but drogo… after this episode he’s got people up off the couch shouting and ready for him to go kick some ass. gonna be a wild ride.

  265. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Nathan Oliver,

    Deer, elk, quayle or pheasant. You killed it? Then you prepare it. If you’re unexperienced, someone will help you, but you always participate. It’s like that now. Why wouldn’t it be like that in Westeros? The TywinStagGate is not a gate at all. Hunters, chime in?

  266. Kachina Doll
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    First time poster here. I just want to say how much I’m enjoying watching the show and reading all of your comments as well. I’m afraid I’m now going to add my whine to the many others about that scene, so feel free to scroll on past if you’ve had your fill. I can’t blame you, I just need to vent a bit.

    While this was my favorite episode so far, I was a bit disappointed with the “sexposition” scene. Not because of the sex, but because I felt the scene was just so unsubtle. Littlefinger is a very subtle character but the he-screws-everyone-and-makes-them-trust-him-even-when-they-know-they-can’t symbolism was just a tad obvious. It doesn’t fit the mood for his character and as such I found it jarring. Coupled with the unnecessary exposition (Who cares at this point why he betrays Ned? Wouldn’t it have been more powerful to reveal it later, in smaller pieces?) it seemed as though Littlefinger was just a nanosecond shy of twirling his Snidely Whiplash mustache and threatening to tie Catelyn to the railroad tracks. It was just a really clunky scene in an otherwise well done episode, so it’s not surprising so many people are talking about it. It stood out for the wrong reasons.

    But I loved the episode. Cut that one scene and hire enough extras to make Kingslanding seem truly busy, busy enough to provide contrast with the usually empty throne room, and it would have been just about perfect.

    My husband, a nonreader of the books, is really getting hooked. And to be fair, the sexposition didn’t bother him at all. I doubt he remembers that Littlefinger had anything to say beyond “play with her ___.” so perhaps it was more subtle than I’m giving it credit for.

  267. Milan Petrovic
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer, Great overview of the episode! It seams that most people get uncomfortable watching sex, and yet can easily watch all sorts of violence. This sexposition scene had purpose to tell more about Littlefinger, and his openness about his motivations is fitting in that scene. He can’t tell any of that to anyone else, he has no friends really, so a scene with Ros is a perfect setting for that.

    Barking is also not a big deal for me, I expected something from Ghost, mute thing from a dog in a series simply is not working as in the book. Series is very different medium, and some things will not work, and I think that many people still can’t accept the fact that book so big and complex can’t be the same as a series. This starts to look like The Lord Of The Rings movies vs book and complaints about Tom Bombadil, invasion of Hobitton and other things.

    Considering everything, Game of Thrones series, so far is nothing but great. From a set of highly complex and very unfilmable books, we got a series that new viewers and also readers can enjoy.

  268. Beatrice Soriani
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Don’t just stare at it – eat it.”g

    I was waiting for someone to bring that up! :D

  269. Milan Petrovic
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    Ghost, I second that.

  270. DeConnie
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    maxlongstreet: Ugghh. Worst episode yet by far. Particularly bad on the heels of the best episode. Full of made-up scenes like those with Tywin and Petyr where the characters’ motivations are awkwardly laid out for slow viewers. Littlefinger confiding in a couple of whores? Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.I have a tough road to hoe getting my wife to watch going forward, since she basically has said she’s not interested in watching a show so lame and obvious.

    Something really bad has had to be done if a non-reader says the show is too obvious.
    The book on the other side, was totally unpredictable and you never knew what was going to happen. But in the show they defined the charactarers so wrongly they became predictable. (Except for Cersei who was the only one sided one (with good reasons for it) and they change it to make her more likeable….)

  271. miltos Yerolemou
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    and now for my two cents.
    E.P.I.S.O.D.E 8
    I don’t think i need to say anything else….’just so’

  272. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    miltos Yerolemou, I seriously cannot wait.

  273. Deagusser
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    don’t ignore it people, barkgate is very real!!
    it’s so scandalous, monocles popped off of faces of esteemed gentlemen.

  274. Frank P
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Some people should just stick with the books. Why even bother watching if it makes you so upset? I`m glad I`ve only read the books once, so I don`t remember all the details. However, books and films have never been the same medium, so why even compare them as such? This show have to tell the story, within a limited timeframe, and I think they are doing a good job. And, unlike most TV-shows, this is only to get better and better. And if you are just unhappy about it all, then at least you can dance with dragons this summer, even though if I were George, I wouldn`t dare to put any books outhere. Because for some fans, Winter has truly come.

  275. 0KEN0
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    Wow… can’t believe how petty so many fans are. Getting sad about a bark? Unbelievable.

    I’ve read a SoIaF 4 times now, and they’re my favourite books… I watched episode 7 twice, and not once did I even think about the bark.

    I literally laughed out loud when I came here and saw people complaining about it.

    Is this adaptation perfect? Not even close… but come on people…

  276. Frank P
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Some foreshadowing hopefully.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAKnsoRrOS0&feature=related

    I`m such a romantic…

  277. Mike Chair
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Jilly said it: they’ve basically screwed it with the pooches. The Northern Inuits were basically 75% fail. No need to beat on it… and I’m going to hedge my bets and say they don’t repeat the mistake by bringing back the same dogs (digitally enhanced or not) in season two.

    Does anyone know how True Blood does it with the werewolves?

  278. the goat
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    I’m sure this has been posted already, but I can’t wade through all the mess.
    quick sidenote tho, who has more daddy issues: Jaime or the smiling knight?

    Anyway, who cares, such a magnificent episode!!

    “Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns, and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the Wall. I am the shield that guards the realm of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night, and all the nights to come.”

    Anyone who thinks that Littlefinger exposition needs less lesbian sex has problems. That”s all i’m gonna say about that. King Robert Baratheon was murdered by a fucking pig. No man could’ve protected him from himself, although I hope that dutiful young lad does not blame himself. This scene was more self-explanatory, but everyone will ignore it anyway:

    Maester Luwin: Why did you come here?

    Osha: Didn’t mean to come here. Meant to get much further south than this. As south as south goes. Before the Long Night comes.

    Maester Luwin: Why? What are you afraid of?

    Osha: There’s things that sleep in the day. And hunt at night…

    Maester Luwin: Owls and shadowcats…

    Osha: I’m not talkin about owls and shadowcats…

    Maester Luwin: Hmm. These things you speak of. They’ve been gone for thousands of years.

    Osha: They wasn’t gone, old man. They was sleeping. And they ain’t sleepin no more.

  279. Oi!
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Yeah child actors in close proximity to real wolfs.

    The main difference is that in True Blood the wolfs are just being wolfs and really dont have to do shit but growl and if there is a need for a shoot with an actor you can easily get a stunt double in there.

    Plus isnt there a law regarding wolfs and wolf hybrids in N.Ireland that forbids owning/importing them?

  280. IP
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    agree

    Ghost:
    Would it be possible to have two seperate threads for after-show debates.One for the people that want to nitpick each episode to pieces and one for people that want to just share their experiences watching it?This is a genuine request as I love reading what other people think of the show but honestly all this constant negativity over minor details is bringing me down.I’m not adverse to people disagreeing or pointing out things they don’t like but the animosity in the way some people here do it is just too much.

  281. Franny Bee
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Always support the bottom. Play with her ass.

    New WiC banner?

  282. Jesper Molbo
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Another vote in support for Ghost’ request. Im all for people voicing their opinion, I just wish i could read about peoples experiences with the show without barking, eyebrows or accents causing “the sky is falling” every third post

  283. Joakim
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    I haven’t seen the episode yet, will watch it later tonight. But I couldn’t resist and just had to watch the first scene… Wow! That was Lord Tywin Lannister. Charles Dance is perfect as Tywin. Skinning a stag! Perfect casting, wonderful acting and excellent writing. Can’t wait to see the whole episode tonight :)

  284. Steven Watson
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    vibesmoother:
    Lost in all the child actors being so good is how Jack Gleeson is playing Joffrey. Maybe it’s like Sansa in that you love to hate him, but the kid is really good playing that role.

    And how good he is will pay off as the show progresses.

    It would be easier to appreciate Gleeson’s acting if his makeup and hair weren’t so distracting. Guess that’s not his fault, though. He has a lot of weight to carry in the next two seasons, so he’ll get a lot of opportunity to impress.

  285. vibemoother
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Steven Watson: It would be easier to appreciate Gleeson’s acting if his makeup and hair weren’t so distracting.Guess that’s not his fault, though.He has a lot of weight to carry in the next two seasons, so he’ll get a lot of opportunity to impress.

    Yeah, the hair looks like someone smeared a handful of lard through it….. Maybe Tywin has a Lannister cosmetics line made from leftover stag parts.

    But that does bring up a good point; all the eyebrow fuss, wig issues, and other aesthetics that may miss the mark a little very rarely distract me personally, even though I have been reminded of them since we got our first snippets of film. The acting in this show is good enough to make me forget all that nonsense. Kudos to the cast and I am fully invested in the way that the characters are being played even if the look and manner is different from my imagining of their counterparts in the books.

  286. Alice Moore
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Was that scene with Petyr and his ladies really necessary? We learned some of Littlefinger’s motivations, but, the porn scene was a distraction. A first time viewer might think him a voyeur. C’mon guys, I’m trying to sell AGOT as the work of the American Tolkien to my friends. We can watch this kind of stuff on The Tudors or just read a Bodice Ripper.

    Rant over. The rest of the episode was pretty good. I liked the Oath takeing of Sam and Jon at the Heart Tree. The Bark did not bother me

    It was good to see Khal Drogo finally get some dialog. Up to this point he was making Schwarzenegger look like a soliloquy spouting Shakespearean actor. We learn that he loves and cares for Dany. Of course, he does want to enslave women and children as revenge. You can’t have everything.

    The GRRM written episode will be a treat.

  287. Stephen Berry
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Have to also agree with Ghost- would love an alternate thread. These ones are like 80% suckiness with 20% thoughtful critiques.

  288. Eric Fitch
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    “Tywin Lannister butchering his own meat? Really? The richest, maybe most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms is dressing out a kill in his own tent?”

    And Robert hunted boar because he had no one to fetch one for him? He did it because he enjoyed it. Did he field dress his prey as well? Hunters do that sort of thing. Well, in that case he didn’t get a chance but it is no leap to think that he may have. It is not the least bit problematic that Tywin would simply enjoy field dressing a stag possibly one that he deigned to kill himself.

  289. HuntGod
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Did no one else see a parallel between the Tywin/Jaime scene and the unshot scene of Samwell and his father from the books, where his father sends him to wall while dressing a stag.

    I thought they did that intentionally as an easter egg of sorts for the book readers to read a little into Jaime/Tywins relationship, which is born out to a degree in later books.

    WHOREGATE – Yeah it was gratuitous and a waste of film, I appreciated Littlefingers exposition, but it could have been done in a different setting in half the time.

    I would have preferred two minutes of Jon convincing Aemon to promote Sam to the watch ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over watching the two hookers finger each other.

    BARKGATE – Really? This is what you latch onto to complain about?

  290. Ingemar Svensson
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Did anyone notice the broom behind Tonks, ehm…I mean Osha…Coincidence?

    http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2131/osha.png

  291. Mirax
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Emma:
    “I always wanted to be a wizard.”

    As did I, Sam.
    As did I.

    Me too. I’m still disappointed by my like of wizard-ness every day.

  292. Delrachnid
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    I’m enjoying the show overall but there a few things that bother me from time to time. Most notably is the way the show has been dumbed down and subtle plot lines that were prevalent in the books are spelled out so much that they should be questions on “Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?” Who says that the American public wouldn’t get it? As an example, Lost, you either loved it or hated it but the one thing it did well was let the viewer try and decide what the heck was going on. People would gather at the watercooler the next day at work and actually talk about the show and what this or that could mean. That’s kind of what I envisioned for this show. If you read some of the other boards populated by non book readers they are guessing things that took me two books or more to figure out. Now I could just be that dumb, but I’m more apt to believe it’s because the show is revealing way too much way too early.

    The other, less notable thing, is the sex in the show. I, like many other men, love boobs. I love sex. But jesus enough already. It is distracting, and moreover, it makes the show less appealing to a mass audience. My reasoning is this. Take any other HBO series. Sopranos, The Wire, Six Feet Under, Trueblood, etc. The one thing every show has going for it is that I would recommend it to anyone without even thinking twice about putting a disclaimer in there. I’m thinking of the people I would recommend this to and I would feel uncomfortable telling, let’s say, my mom, “Hey there’s this new series on HBO that I want you to watch based off my favorite books of all time. There’s alot of sex and nudity but try and get through it and stick with the show.” That’s my major problem with the sex in the show. It’s overly done and clumsy in the process and makes it less of a show that I would tell people that have some kind of importance to me to watch, i.e. my mom, sister, boss, certain people that I know are more conservative. I want to be able to tell everyone that this show is awesome.

    And don’t even get me started on the Direwolves. I’d rather see a Direwolf Transformer in an episode directed by Michael Bay than have them not be present.

    Sorry for the whine, just had to get it off my chest.

  293. stoogeling
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    If you think about the character that Ros is obviously being groomed to replace (S–e), and her upcoming role in the undoing of a major character—the scene leans less towards exposition and more towards foreshadowing.

  294. Drfunk
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    I’m reading a lot of reviews at the moment and finding out a disturbing trend even amongst critics who’ve read the books. One of the complaints was regarding to the “silly botched” attempt at assassination. Meaning that the whole thing was poorly conceived and looked fairly random. In the show it’s implied and even shown that Varys is in cahoots with Illyo. So “knowing” that Varys is trying to help Dany get her thrown back by fanning the feud between the wolf and the lion, is it such a stretch to imagine that he sent in a noob assassin? The council scene failed in that one aspect, it’s quite obvious we WILL see Jaqen, as he is a key element in Arya’s development. With Jaqen comes the faceless men, so if it’s going to be part of the storyline they SHOULD have mentioned/introduced it during the small council meeting. Pycelle? I believe talking about it and then Littlefinger bitching about how even a small army would be cheaper than hiring one.

    That in turn would have explained somewhat why the wine seller was so inept in his mission, a real assassin would have jumped on Dany as soon as he was foiled instead of running away. Maybe I’m reading a bit too much into it but it seems critics seems to ignore Varys’s involvement with the Targs and make it seem he’s got another agenda (at least in the TV version).

    To deflect Barkgate 2.0, let’s bitch about the music! I’d like some more prominent music to be featured during the show (and not just the awesome opening).

  295. Vellyr
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    A few people commented on how short the throne room fight scene was, but I think that this may be one of the places where they’ve shaved off budget for the dragon fund.

  296. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    The difference is, the modern reader who “always wanted to be a wizard” has to learn to live with the disappointment.

    Samwell Tarly, on the other hand, just has to hang in there until The Winds of Winter is written. There are some glass candles that need lighting and a Valyrian steel link on his Maester’s Chain which needs forging…

    I thought the line was clear foreshadowing in a manner which was not in the book, mostly because at the time, GRRM had not yet firmly established in his own mind the overall character arc for Sam Tarly in 1995 when he wrote the scene.

    Fifteen years+ later, matters have clarified considerably and Sam’s fate can be more accurately foreshadowed.

  297. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Vellyr:
    A few people commented on how short the throne room fight scene was, but I think that this may be one of the places where they’ve shaved off budget for the dragon fund.

    I thought the fight scene was precisely as long as it needed to be and did not differ measurably from the way it was depicted in the book. Spot on, more or less.

  298. Johan Sporre
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    I didn’t come out of it as exhilirated as last week’s episode, but it was still a great episode to me.
    Acting continued to be great (Bean-Headey, Bean-Addy), and the scenes at the Wall were fantastic once again.
    Littlefinger’s talk was a bit too long, but I still found the writing of that scene to be good, with lots of clever wordplay.
    But I’ve got to say that Dany was overall my favourite :) Missed Arya and Tyrion though.

  299. Dany's Knickers
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    I started reading through the comments, but didn’t get all the way (or nearly so) before I had to post.

    First, with Tywin dressing the Stag… didn’t anyone catch the double-meaning with King Robert having been ‘gutted’, circuitously by the Lanisters? I thought it was quite appropriate.

    Wow, a direwolf barks and fan boys freak out. Really, this is the kind of shit that bothers you? Whatever.

    I felt the episode was exceptionally acted. Seriously, there’s nary a weak link. While I didn’t particularly care for the Littlefinger / Ros scene, I didn’t find it horrid either.

    The next three episodes should be quite a ride indeed! Can’t wait for season 2!!!

  300. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Mirax: Me too. I’m still disappointed by my like of wizard-ness every day.

    My older children waited for their owl to bring their Hogwarts letters for years.. Sigh.. How sad and evil JK Rowling is!!!

  301. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Deagusser: it’s so scandalous, monocles popped off of faces of esteemed gentlemen.

    hahaha, monopoly boards everywhere are now disfigured!

  302. Devongirl
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Old lurker-new poster here – happen to have some real-world experience that might explain two things that have irritated (some) people…

    The direwolves – I have a feeling that the producers were taken with the (albeit almost ideal) look of these dogs and probably with the innocent collusion of an over-enthusiastic breeder for whom the breed can do no wrong (oh they’ll be PERFECT, they’ll do WHATEVER you ask of them) ended up with a bunch of juvenile dogs that were at best excited participants and at worst recalcitrant vandals. My mother in law lived in Nunavut for years and rescued fourteen Inuit sled dogs – admittedly not the same breed, but all the wolf-dog types are similar…fabulous if you want them to run fast in one direction (preferably pulling something) or chasing something fast in one direction, or fighting with each other: not so great if you want them to co operate, or fetch, or even a do a simple sit-stay. They are far from stupid (most of them, at least) but they are well known to be some of the most difficult breeds to train. One of the reasons you never see a husky-type dog on a sit com, and only rarely in agility trials even though they are superb athletes. I think they ended up with a pack of half grown dogs that went bananas with excitement – so many things to chase! smell! fight with! chew on! knock over! – that they did a modified hand wash and incorporated them where they could or had to – preferably inside. I laughed out loud when I saw Lady on a leash – I found myself imagining how many takes they tried with her at heel before they gave up. Maybe next season they’ll hire adult dogs that have a few years of obedience training behind them and hope for the best. I can’t imaging CGI being practical – to do it well costs an absolute fortune, and even at it’s best wouldn’t be as good as real dogs.

    And with respect to Charles Dance’s Tywin – when you have an actor of this magnitude doing a role, (and trust me on this one – I’ve been a theatrical costumer for twenty years), he has a great deal of say in what he wears. And given what he’s established with one scene, can you really see him wearing cloth of gold? I’m imagining his poor dresser at an early fitting, draping a silk velvet cloak around his shoulders, at which Mr. Dance calmly but with polite and terrifying firmness expresses his preference for something less foppish. I honestly don’t think they would even have attempted it – to me it would have struck a false note and run the risk of making Tywin seem initially ridiculous. Costuming has a language just like everything else in film making does, and dressing a character as a peacock is a subtextual statement about his personality which in this case then needs to be subverted. And while I’m a great fan of GRRM’s wealth of such subversions (Hoat’s terrifying lisp, for example) I don’t think in this case it would merit the effort. With such a complex story to tell in such a brief amount of time I don’t fault the writers for simplifying some elements. Not to say that he won’t enter gorgeously dressed later on – but it will be for a reason and have more impact as a result.

    Didn’t mean to write so much (speaking of keeping it simple!)

  303. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Adam Wing: Am I the only one who saw trepidation in Dany’s eyes when Drogo declared he would kill, burn and rape his way across HER kingdom? That she was just starting to realize exactly what she had unleashed and now couldn’t stop. I mean it was more than satisfaction or ambition written on her face. Maybe she just wanted to jump his bones then and there but I’ve never known Dany to be titillated by the bloody consequences of war.I mean, I’m not complaining. Her doubt (if that’s indeed what it was) only adds to an already great character.

    Yes, I saw that too.. And that little part of the speech was a bit creepy – as I think it was meant to be..

  304. IP
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Delrachnid: . Most notably is the way the show has been dumbed down and subtle plot lines that were prevalent in the books are spelled out so much that they should be questions on “Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?”

    can you give me an example

  305. Ed
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Best idea ever! (Take your whiney nit-picking to your own thread!)

    Ghost:
    Would it be possible to have two seperate threads for after-show debates.One for the people that want to nitpick each episode to pieces and one for people that want to just share their experiences watching it?This is a genuine request as I love reading what other people think of the show but honestly all this constant negativity over minor details is bringing me down.I’m not adverse to people disagreeing or pointing out things they don’t like but the animosity in the way some people here do it is just too much.

  306. Ed
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Pretty sure thats porn star Sahara Knite. She can be in more scenes, as far as I’m concerned.

    bunderant:
    That girl in the sexposition scene can’t be Shae… The actress they got to play her (Sibel Kekilli) is only credited on IMDB for episodes nine and ten (Not to mention that it wouldn’t make much sense for her to be in King’s Landingat this point in time).

  307. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,
    That is a very good explanation of who Ghost is, and why his characteristics are important!

  308. Ed
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Well – Bye.

    gurgi:
    I no longer tell friends to watch.I am pretty disappointed in the show so far.If I add up all the things I dislike it becomes rather a enormous list.Most having to do with all the artistic license that D and D decided to take.I think the material was too much for them and they have failed in their many many character motivational changes.

    I will keep watching because I must.I read the first book the second year after it came out.I just read the rest about three or four years ago.I have the audiobooks and have been waiting for the show with baited breathe.

    It may please some folks, it may please you.It however does not please me.

    As much as I loved Spartacus I am shocked I find the sex scenes in this to be just awful amateurish tripe.

  309. Ghost
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    Ingemar Svensson:
    Did anyone notice the broom behind Tonks, ehm…I mean Osha…Coincidence?

    http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2131/osha.png

    haha, well spotted :D

  310. Ed
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    That’s interesting Adam, I didn’t see that. I DID notice her reaction, but to me it was purely a deep-seated “Oh HELL yeah THAT’S MY MAN” feeling she was giving off. She was viscerally excited about the whole prospect and was down 100% with it.

    Adam Wing:
    Am I the only one who saw trepidation in Dany’s eyes when Drogo declared he would kill, burn and rape his way across HER kingdom? That she was just starting to realize exactly what she had unleashed and now couldn’t stop. I mean it was more than satisfaction or ambition written on her face. Maybe she just wanted to jump his bones then and there but I’ve never known Dany to be titillated by the bloody consequences of war.

    I mean, I’m not complaining. Her doubt (if that’s indeed what it was) only adds to an already great character.

  311. A Bear_A Bear
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    You know, I can’t wait for the response to next week’s episode – “What?! Look at the total disrespect this shows for the source material! Sexposition?!?!! Syrio would never do THAT!! What hack wrote this piece of…? Oh. Oh, I see…” :D

  312. Khal Zhen
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Ghost,

    Yeah, or if anyone knows a board that fits such a description. One for details, one for overall picture?

    I guess that’s the problem with having so many people who are passionate about the books on this board. There are different reasons we love them and those different focuses lead to pretty heated reactions.

  313. stu
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Don’t really agree about your no-barking argument. First of all, even though it’s 3000 pages without a bark (sounds a bit weird to me but OK let’s assume it) direwolves are far from featured on every page. Secondly, given that they act like canine creatures besides size and strength, I see no reason why they shouldn’t bark. Summer whines/howls when bran climbs the walls of Winterfell before his fall. You think they howl but don’t bark?

    I guess there could be some point in letting Ghost be mute, since he’s a sort of outsider, but otherwise, if GRRM didn’t point out that they didn’t bark I see no reason (and I’ve never thought of direwolves as non-barking) to take away an essential canine trait.

  314. TC
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    stu:
    Mike Chair,

    Don’t really agree about your no-barking argument. First of all, even though it’s 3000 pages without a bark (sounds a bit weird to me but OK let’s assume it) direwolves are far from featured on every page. Secondly, given that they act like canine creatures besides size and strength, I see no reason why they shouldn’t bark. Summer whines/howls when bran climbs the walls of Winterfell before his fall. You think they howl but don’t bark?

    I guess there could be some point in letting Ghost be mute, since he’s a sort of outsider, but otherwise, if GRRM didn’t point out that they didn’t bark I see no reason (and I’ve never thought of direwolves as non-barking) to take away an essential canine trait.

    The bark doesn’t bother me really, but it curious that they didn’t choose to mute the sound out. You aren’t shown the dog’s face when the bark happens, so it is odd that they conciously choose to keep that sound in, when it seems the sound editor could have quite easily removed it.

  315. dtb
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    I’ve been a bit critical but,

    Tywin-Awesome
    Jaime-Awesome
    Drogo’s Speech-Super Awesome
    Addy’s last scene-Very Awesome
    The Wall-Quite Awesome
    The Wallb, more Maester Aemon-AWESOME
    Episode 8-Gonna be the longest wait since the week leading up to the premiere…

  316. twincast
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know if the Tywin scene was a necessary addition, but it was a good one IMHO.

    But having to endure the endless minutes of cheesy whore training, just to, when it finally gains a semblance of plot relevance two thirds through it, sum up LF’s backstory, all of which we’ve heard before, some of it even more than once… What the Fuck? I didn’t mind any of the other sex(ual) scenes before, but that was just cheap titillation and pure filler in a series that doesn’t have even a second to spare on filler material.

    Concerning (dire) wolves not barking and Ghost being mute: Well, of course it would be better if it weren’t happening, but at least we got to see him again and it’s not a deal breaker by any means for me anyway.

    The rest was good, though, but there were no real highlights aside from maybe the final scene (and, okay, Drogo’s speech was awesomesauce) and the brothel scene drags it way down to worst (‘though still good) episode so far with plenty of breathing room to the lowest of the other six.

  317. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Geez, the “gates” get more trivial and pathetic every week! I really just pity the nitpickers at this point.

    Also, loved the look of the Lannister camp in the first scene! All that re and gold, and all those lion banners. Perfect!

  318. OldGran
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    I have watched this episode 3 times now twice on HBOGo and once on TV last night. The first time I loved Tywin and Jaime, no problem with Tywin dressing his own kill, although I did wonder why he didn’t “field” dress it outside. Did not notice the bark. Non-issue. The sex scene brought the flow of the show to a stop. It went on so long I started to think of all the work I should be doing and ended up going out to clean up in the kitchen. As a result I missed the whole middle of the show. That is why I needed to watch it again later in the week. By that time I had read all about wolves and barks, and the sex scene and a speech by Littlefinger.
    When I watched it again I was prepared for the sex scene so it was not as bothersome and I listened to LF speech. To me that scene was kind of like a commercial that when it is over you can’t recall what they were selling.
    Now after last night’s viewing I can see it’s a gratuitous sex scene about gratuitous sex, or false sex. The point being that LF is himself “false”, but can make you believe he is something else. I don’t think of it as LesboGate because the girls are not lesbians they are whores who don’t even know each other having only just met.
    I don’t think that if someone does not enjoy prolonged gratuitous sex they must enjoy prolonged violence or gore. I wont watch prolonged torture or excessive violence either. That’s why I gave up on TB. Does that mean I want HBO to be PG-13? No, adult themes can be presented without pandering.
    Love the Night’s Watch scenes, Jon’s shock at not getting the Ranger post,when he knows he is qualified is real and well done. Sam. Love him in the book and love him in the show. “I always wanted to be a wizzard.” Ha, careful what you wish for,Sam.
    This is the best adaptation from book to film I’ve seen in a long time if ever.

  319. Yeekim
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Was I the only one who noticed that Ned signed the letter to Stannis “Eddrrd Stark”? :D

  320. McSherrie
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Watching this episode last night I found myself thinking, Don’t scream ‘Ned, you idiot!’ at the end. We reached the end of the episode and my friend screamed “Ned, you idiot!” I felt vindicated.

    And while I did notice that Ghost is making noise, I wasn’t disturbed by it. It’s a change, but not one so drastic to ruin anything for me.

  321. Yeekim
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    The Ghost looks, sounds and feels nothing like a (dire)wolf and everything like a big, friendly husky.

    And I don’t care. The show still completely rocks. (y)

  322. TC
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    the goat:
    “Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns, and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the Wall. I am the shield that guards the realm of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night, and all the nights to come.”

    Anyone who thinks that Littlefinger exposition needs less lesbian sex has problems.

    Unfortunately they removed a few words from the night’s watch vow to get in that lesbian sex scene, the vows should read:
    Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death… I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

    They also could have been well served to show Jon convincing Maester Aemon to make Sam a steward, which contains a discussion that explains what a maester is, about their chains, and what each link means.

    I also would have preferred the left in Ser Loras’s request to hunt the Mountain from last episode which Ned denies, which could have been followed this episode with Littlefinger’s chat with Sansa and Septa Mordaine where Sansa says father should have sent Ser Loras. Littlefinger agrees, but wants to know why Sansa thinks so. Sansa goes on to discuss how it is just like the songs, where the handsome hero knight defeats the evil villain. Littlefinger says that is not the reason I would have given, “Life is not a song, sweetling. Someday you may learn that,to your sorrow.”

    It’s not that I found the sex scene offensive, though I did think it was too long, but there were a lot of other good scenes from the books that were cut for this long scene which didn’t really fit my picture of Littlefinger from the books in the first place. So if it was added to give non-readers a better grasp of who Littlefinger is, I don’t think it paints a very book accurate picture. This is the same man who has Sansa remain in character as Alayne even when they are alone just in case a servant or someone else walks in or over hears them talking. I also never got the impression that revenge was a primary motivation for Littlefinger. He betrays Ned because Ned refuses his advice and insists on backing Stannis who would have removed Littlefinger from power. This came across as self preservation more than revenge. I think he would have been equally, if not more happy, if Ned had listened and backed Joffrey while acting as Hand reagent with Littlefinger as his chief advisor as Baelish advised. Littlefinger always felt more like The Usual Suspects and Keyser Söze, “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn’t exist.” fits Littlefinger, who is accepted in the court by many different opposing factions because he has no armies and they believe he is no threat. Such a man isn’t likely to be advertising how he loves to fuck people to strangers, even if it is true.

  323. Adam Wing
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Ingemar Svensson:
    Did anyone notice the broom behind Tonks, ehm…I mean Osha…Coincidence?

    http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2131/osha.png

    She IS changing the rushes there. But still… awesome.

  324. oenone
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Just watched it, fantastic episode! A few thoughts:

    Woofgate – This was really an issue for some people, seriously? The gates get more and more pathetic each week. I barely even noticed it! I actually enjoyed it, was nice to see ghost for a change. Barely noticeable woof or not.

    Whoregate – Agreed with this, one of the worst scenes in the entire series… i’ve had no problem with sex scenes until now, did anyone really hear what littlefinger was saying in this scene with all the moaning in the background? Really cringeworthy scene and the length only made this worse. It does lower the series into ‘trash’ territory, a shame when other scenes are so good!

    Drogo – What can i say, awesome speech, i want to join his army!

    Ending – was epic however felt a little rushed… should have cut the whore scene in half for more here!

    Joffery – hate him even more than in the books, if that’s even possible!

  325. MW
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one here who has never seen or read Harry Potter?

  326. oenone
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    …oh and Renly, much, much better this week, before I thought his casting was the worst in the show, there are signs here that he’s not so bad.

  327. oenone
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    MW: Am I the only one here who has never seen or read Harry Potter?

    I doubt it, i’ve never seen or read Harry Potter and have no plans to.

  328. sffdd
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    The reason ghost shouldn’t bark is because he’s mute, not because he’s a dire wolf imo

  329. sffdd
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    oenone,

    You guys are missing out although the movies are just watchable, the books are fantastic.

  330. Tulse
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Devongirl, I think you are completely right — the use of Inuit dogs was the best solution to a very tough problem, namely, how to show very large wolf-like animals. CGI would have been an unconvincing disaster (while being hugely expensive), and any other real dog breeds would not have looked right at all. It is unfortunate that the northern breeds are so notoriously difficult to train (I owned a half-Husky, so I know), but that’s what’s available. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the dogs turned out to be more problematic to deal with than the producers had anticipated, and perhaps that’s why we’ve seen so little of them. But in any case, it seems like what’s been done is likely the best that could have been done, under the circumstances.

  331. LadyofLeaves
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    OMG! Tywin totally stole Randyl Tarlys “How to talk to your kid” – Setup!
    Got the symbolism only on second watch.

    Luwin realy doesn’t like Theon. I’m starting to feel kind of sorry for the guy.

    Samwell continues to be awsome and funny. (“I always wanted to be a wizzard” Well who doesn’t? Except for Doreah who wants to be a dragon. It is known)

    Ned continues to be wayyy to single minded and honorable for his own good. (I was yelling at him when I read the book, now I’m yelling at him while watching the show, it’s a good thing my room has thick walls)

    And barking or no barking, more direwolfs are always a good thing. I wanna see Shaggydog! Anyone else thinks that Rickons naming skills are awesome?

  332. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Re: bark-gate.

    Who gives a shit? I’d rather just enjoy the awesome freaking albino direwolf running through the snow, and carrying back a severed arm. LOVED it. More Ghost, please.

  333. Dolorous Dave
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    I think this episode was absolutely awesome.

    I think people are being too critical on things like Ghost’s bark, Tywin skinning the animal etc -the writers aren’t stupid, they did all this for a reason.

    I have a few small criticisms myself though.

    Again they left out some great lines, which though they didn’t advance the plot they were really good and would have only needed a few seconds of screen time each. For example:

    Ned: “Have you no shred of honour?”
    Littlefinger: “Oh, a shred, surely…”

    Littlefinger (same scene): “You think your honour protects you, like armor. But all it does is slow you down and make it harder for you to move”

    Nevertheless it was an amazing episode.

    Best bits:
    -Khal Drogo’s hair-raising speech, spittle and all
    -Pyp’s dismissal of Jon Snow’s complaints
    -The tense final scene

  334. Wolfheart
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    JaimesBrownhairGate

    Come on. They got Dinklages hair right, Headeys hair right. They dropped the ball on NCW’s hair though.

    Kinda a critical point when Jaime and Cersie have incest and have kids with Golden hair.

  335. Ed
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    LOL I saw that too, just wondered if he wrote funny, or what…

    Yeekim:
    Was I the only one who noticed that Ned signed the letter to Stannis “Eddrrd Stark”?

  336. Avalanche3319
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Also, loved the look of the Lannister camp in the first scene! All that re and gold, and all those lion banners. Perfect!

    Yeah, that openinig shot of the Lannister camp was brilliant. I wish we had a shot like that for the tourney. Everything about that opening scene was pure gold. Charles Dance blew me away, he IS Tywin Lannister. In one scene he may have become my favorite casting choice.

  337. Tulse
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Avalanche3319: that openinig shot of the Lannister camp was brilliant. I wish we had a shot like that for the tourney.

    Exactly — this is one time that I thought the producers were at least making an attempt to show the proper scale of locations and crowds. I’d have liked that at the tourney, and at Vaes Dothrak, and at our first arrival in King’s Landing, and at Pentos…

  338. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    JaimesBrownhairGate

    Come on. They got Dinklages hair right, Headeys hair right. They dropped the ball on NCW’s hair though.

    Kinda a critical point when Jaime and Cersie have incest and have kids with Golden hair.

    This is somewhat common, though. When I was younger I had very light blond hair. As I got older it naturally darkened and is now somewhat reddish/blond with some sandy coloring as well. To me, Jaime’s hair looks like nearly every other blond member of my family in that it just got darker as he got older.

  339. Alex Harman
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    afireinside30x:
    Also, does anyone else think that Sean Bean and Mark Addy completely nail their respective roles when they have scenes together? I mean, they’re great apart (Mark Addy, especially. Man, that guy IS Robert!),

    As of this episode, we have to say he WAS Robert — King Robert is in the past tense now. Expecting the Mark Adde Curtain Call post within the next few days.

  340. Jeda
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Tulse,

    Agreed! It was a fantastic shot! Regarding all the populated areas, I assume they had to make budget decisions and keep all these for the end of the season where it really matters. They already took it very seriously by investing a lot (really they didn’t take the p___) but they have to be careful when launching a series not knowing if it’s going to work. After all Rome was cancelled because it was too expensive, we don’t want that to happen again. I can only guess that a similar decision was made with the Direwolves. They had so much to build and concentrate on for season 1 that they probably decided to keep them as pulp for season 1. We know they didn’t just forget they were big because we saw the mother on ep1, so maybe they just decided to age them slower. Their size is only important toward the end of book 1 anyway (in fact starting in ep8) so maybe we will be pleasantly surprised soon. Otherwise well… HBO convinced me they certainly did the best they could! I for one will buy the DVD! Do my part for the money needed for the next season(s) ;-)

  341. Tulse
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Jeda: Regarding all the populated areas, I assume they had to make budget decisions and keep all these for the end of the season where it really matters

    I’m sure that’s it. That said, I really long for a Lucas-style “enhanced” version on Blu-Ray with added crowd shots and “helicopter views” of the various mentioned locales. (Not gonna happen, I know, but still…)

  342. Alex Harman
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Tulse: Exactly — this is one time that I thought the producers were at least making an attempt to show the proper scale of locations and crowds.I’d have liked that at the tourney, and at Vaes Dothrak, and at our first arrival in King’s Landing, and at Pentos…

    I’d have liked that too — but I’ll forgive all if they show that they saved all the money they could have spent on those scenes to give us an eye-poppingly awesome Battle of the Green Fork and three Avatar-quality CGI dragons. Oh, and at least 200 extras shouting “THE KING IN THE NORTH!

  343. Wolfheart
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: This is somewhat common, though.When I was younger I had very light blond hair.As I got older it naturally darkened and is now somewhat reddish/blond with some sandy coloring as well.To me, Jaime’s hair looks like nearly every other blond member of my family in that it just got darker as he got older.

    That’s a good excuse I suppose for David and Dan to use. But not when the other siblings have golden blonde hair…

    I was a blond up until age of 7 then went brown. At the age Jaime is in the book and more so in the series. He’ll STAY blonde until he goes grey. So try again. It quite simple. He’s supposed to be a blonde not a brunette. They lost all the lLannister traits on NCW on this one.

  344. Wolfheart
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Alex Harman: I’d have liked that too — but I’ll forgive all if they show that they saved all the money they could have spent on those scenes to give us an eye-poppingly awesome Battle of the Green Fork and three Avatar-quality CGI dragons.Oh, and at least 200 extras shouting “THE KING IN THE NORTH!

    Yes, lets hope David and Dan didn’t cut out that awesome line from the Bannermen of the North. “The king in the North” line with people repeating in in fervor would be a great way to end on of the last scenes in Winterfell on Season 1.

  345. silverjaime
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    This episode was really strong and so much of it was absolutely great – the last scene, though a bit rushed, made the hair on my neck stand on end! However, I’m just at a loss to understand the inclusion of the “Sexposition” scene!
    The whole point of Baelish’s character was that we weren’t supposed to know which side (if any) he would come down on, until the betrayal of Ned. HERE we have it spelled out in words of one syllable, just in case we’re all too stupid to realise it at the end scene, when we’re supposed to be (and I WAS when I read the book) shocked!
    Apart from that – why the hell would one of the court’s most secretive and devious characters spout off to random prostitutes his innermost motivations and dreams??? Completely unrealistic. AS is “training” whores in the first place – I’m sure they know what they’re doing, Roz certainly does! – as I’ve said before, it was like No.2 in the “Masturbatory Fantasies for Boys” annual. The unfortunate thing is that you have to sit through the soft porn if you want to hear Aidan Gillen’s speech, although the groans and moans make it hard to hear at times. And the action wasn’t even in the background, we had to look OVER well-shaven mounds of heaving flesh to even SEE Aidan!

    On looking back at the furore over the Loras/Renly scene and a bit of off-screen slurping, I wonder what on earth would have happened if they’d been as graphic as this? especially ass-fingering, which would have been pretty usual for them – I wonder if everyone saying this scene isn’t that graphic would have been of the same opinion if it had been the gay couple and not lesbian whores? I’m not a prude, but saying that it wasn’t as bad as internet porn means nothing to me, as I don’t look up internet porn, but I DO object to having an exposition scene accompanied by women loudly fingering each other etc. I wish D&D wouldn’t write scenes so obviously geared to a specific audience, or if they do, that nothing important is happening in the scene so I can skip it.
    And as Littlefinger was a favourite of mine in the book, I’m very sad that his character has been changed from complex to shallow, when it needn’t have been. The allegory between what LF is saying about fucking people over, and what the whores are doing, is of course obvious to me, however, I don’t like how it’s portrayed in such detail or at such length, considering the numerous other ways this could have been conveyed, and the time constraints within which to tell the story. The other sexposition scenes I’ve had no problem with, but the sex in this scene was IMHO both gratuitous and tacky.
    AND it reinforces the previously-depicted view of Littlefinger as nothing but a pimp – one with delusions of grandeur and huge ambition – but still a pimp, which is NOT how the character was portrayed in the books

  346. Knurk
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Hmm didn’t really like this episode. Some say Lena heady is doing a great job, but in my opinion she is just telephoning her lines in and lets her right eyebrow do all the acting. Only casting choice that really doesn’t work for me.

    The NW’s oath, King Robert’s death, the brothelscene, the betrayal, the wineseller, Tywin and Jaime, it all felt off. Only actor/character killing it this episode is maester Luwin, Theon got owned!! I do think that knowing what exactly is going to contributed to me disliking it, so BWP I hereby join you again. Let’s hope the rewatch will be an improvement. First episode I’m actually dissapointed with, but reading most of the other comments, it luckily is just me.

  347. GaR
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Great episode. Probably my favourite so far.

    Tywin & Jaime were great. I don’t understand the pissing and whining about a dude dressing his own kill. Everyone I know who hunts does that themselves; not because they can’t afford to have someone else do it, but because it’s a part of a hobby they love. Anyway, Charles Dance was awesome, and NCW played off him brilliantly.

    Could’ve done without the sexposition, but it wasn’t as bad as I feared. Gillen was excellent as usual.

    I’ve grown to love Ghost barking. It upsets people who piss me off.

    The best bit though was at the end, when Baelish shafts Ned. A non-reader I was watching with said “He (Ned) will come out on top in the end. I hope he kills Queen Bitch.”

    ::edit::

    Forgot to mention Drogo’s speech. Momoa knocked that one for six. After spending the whole series so far doing and saying bugger all, that scene was amazing.

  348. purplejilly
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    A Bear_A Bear: You know, I can’t wait for the response to next week’s episode – “What?! Look at the total disrespect this shows for the source material! Sexposition?!?!! Syrio would never do THAT!! What hack wrote this piece of…? Oh. Oh, I see…”

    What? Syrio and Sexposition? OMG that will really get me mad, if that happens. At least Syrio is from Braavos so hopefully it won’t be doggy seven kingdoms style..

  349. Sinnfrei
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    The wolves are coming much to short for my liking. But letting ghost bark was definitely a mistake. And not just because wolves usually don’t bark …

    By the way: Just because an animal has white fur, it’s not an albino. And the dog they used as ghost isn’t one. But hey, who cares about eye-colors, hair-colors, and the like any more in this series …

    It’s just sad they didn’t get this simple things managed – I’m really worried about the things to come next season now …

  350. GaR
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    Oh, also, I’ve started intepreting “dropped the ball” as “made me cry like a little baby.”

  351. Kachina Doll
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    silverjaime,

    On looking back at the furore over the Loras/Renly scene and a bit of off-screen slurping, I wonder what on earth would have happened if they’d been as graphic as this?

    I wish it had been that graphic. Instead, it seemed cowardly. Those two characters don’t lack for bravery, so bringing cowardly storytelling to their storyline is almost as jarring for me as the crude sexposition done with Littlefinger. I like for the method of telling the story to fit the characters in it, or differ only for significant reasons.

    But I agree with your original point. There would almost certainly be a lot of people upset about graphic Loras/Renly who didn’t mind the Littlefinger scene one little bit, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many of those same folks are happily implying that those who didn’t like the whore training are just prudes.

    Although I didn’t quote it, I also agree with your point that Littlefinger is being shown as too pimpy. It’s definitely not how I read him. I think it risks making his storyline going forward seem pathetic rather than sinister, but maybe that’s the point? I hope not, but I’m worried that that’s actually where GRRM’s going with that character and I may need to adjust my expectations for Littlefinger. I’ll be disappointed, but the show and the books are wonderful enough that I’ll do it gladly if GRRM will only finish the darned story.

  352. Tar Kidho
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    I think this was actually the episode I enjoyed most so far. True, I noticed Ghost’s unlikely bark and thought the brothel scene was over-the-top, but with all the other goodness both things didn’t bother me for more than seconds. And finally things are really heating up! (I can imagine that for new viewers all plot twists are getting really exciting now) And besides the market scene, there was not a lot of awkward acting around. So overall I would give this episode a 9/10.

    But then you come here and start reading the comments, and it seems like it was a really really bad epside… :-)

  353. Tar Kidho
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: At least Syrio is from Braavos so hopefully it won’t be doggy seven kingdoms style.

    Even if they adopted the same position in Braavos, I’m sure it’s done in an utterly elegant and rythmic style :-)

  354. Tar Kidho
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    silverjaime: I’m not a prude, but saying that it wasn’t as bad as internet porn means nothing to me, as I don’t look up internet porn, but I DO object to having an exposition scene accompanied by women loudly fingering each other etc. I wish D&D wouldn’t write scenes so obviously geared to a specific audience, or if they do, that nothing important is happening in the scene so I can skip it.

    I completely agree. And actually these scenes (btw, this one MUCH more than the Loras/Rennly one, or the Viserys/Doreah bath tub scene which was very tastfully done) stop me from promoting the series to friends that haven’t read the books…

  355. Jeda
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Kachina Doll,

    But of course, it could also be the opposite… When I watched that scene, I knew a lot of women (this is no criticism of course) would make the same remarks about it that hetero men made about Renly/Loras. The only real difference is that one scene was aimed at an audience, the other was aimed at another one. Complaining about this is the same as complaining about the other one, but just from another point of view. Was it more graphic then two men shaving each other? Again, it’s a point of view. Of course Renly’s scene made me uncomfortable, while it’s my wife who was uncomfortable with this one, but that’s what makes it such a good show for me, because it had an effect on me in each case. Granted both scenes went a bit too long, with this one’s purpose being a bit less clear than Renly/Loras. Loras’ scene mixed a gay scene with fleshing out (no pun intended) Loras’ character, that’s a good thing because we won’t see much of him for a while and it’s a good opportunity to do it now, also setting up Renly’s story. I think Littlefinger’s speech here was used to clarify the story of why Catherine married Ned more than about his intentions. He doesn’t say in that scene who he intends to f___ by the way. It only seems too obvious if you read the book, but my wife who didn’t wasn’t sure what he meant, it could just as easily have been Cersei or Varys he was talking about since in a previous episode they were shown as competitors with respective spies. Cheers

  356. PatD
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Some say Lena heady is doing a great job, but in my opinion she is just telephoning her lines in and lets her right eyebrow do all the acting. Only casting choice that really doesn’t work for me.

    I totally agree. I’ve been keeping mum on this, because she seems to be such a fan favorite, but that scene in the garden with Ned was the final straw for me. I know Headey was pregnant during the filming of this series, and that may explain why she’s not up to her regular standards, but I also think that her not reading the books has actually hurt her portrayal of Cersei. I like the depth the writers have attempted to give this character, but I have not been impressed with Headey’s acting of it… especially in comparison to the other actors who are doing wonderful, passionate jobs. I think her deliveries have been wooden and/or mediocre, at best. Some may attribute subtlety to her interpretations, but I think she walked through the part. And all of this is coming from a big Lena fan.

    TC: the best commentary I’ve read re: the LF/whores scene. Mirrored my feelings exactly.

    The Smiling Knight: all your condescension aside, I think your inability to enjoy the Tywin/Jamie scene is due to a major imagination dysfunction on your part. Tywin is a cunning, brutal manipulator. It’s not unimaginable that he set that scene, in a tent, with the foul stinks as purposeful enhancement of his word assault on his reckless son (watch Jamie’s face… he actually gives his father a look of “Okay. I get it. You’re punishing me with this foulness and the whole Tywin as Butcher act”). What’s more, how do we know that was his own, personal, sleeping tent? Just because it was richly furnished does not mean it was his living quarters. Tywin’s dumphouse is probably richly furnished.

    This is a fantasy, dude. Not an historical recreation. Critical awareness is a good thing… to a point… but when it overshadows your imagination and your ability to enjoy a generally excellent adaptation, then it stops being such a good thing.

  357. Jeda
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    silverjaime,

    Actually, at this point even with this scene we still don’t know where Littlefinger’s plan is. The fact of reading the book certainly influenced me to think the same but my wife who didn’t wasn’t quite sure who he intended to f____, it could still have been Cersei or Varys. Besides, at this point I’m sure he doesn’t know yet he’s going to betray Ned, regarless of the brothel scene, he only makes this decision later in the episode when it becomes clear that Ned will not go along with the same ideas he has.

  358. GaR
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    PatD,

    Headey, a fan favourite? She’s been one of the most heavily criticised members of the cast.

    She was only pregnant for the filming of the pilot, incidentally.

  359. PatD
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    I was basing my comment on all the positive remarks I’ve read onforum. Good to know others feel as I do.

    I swear, sometimes it’s as if she’s acting in a different movie than everyone else. I’d stop bragging about not having read the books, if I was her.

  360. GaR
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    PatD,

    She does seem like she’s playing a totally different character much of the time. I just think she’s playing that character, whoever she is, quite well :P

  361. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Can someone please givemea quick answer as to whether or not Ros’ partner was Shae? She looked similair to the actress’s headshot to me.

  362. Bro
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Loves:
    All of the NW stuff
    Jon’s panic attack when he recognises Benjens horse, felt really sorry for him then.
    Jon being a dick after being lobbed into the steward group right after saying there is honour in becoming a steward. Sam “I wanted to be a wizard”. I wish he had said Old Bear instead of old man regarding the LC but anyhu…
    Pyp getting things off his chest and his dirty look at Sam when asked for a song.
    The oath scene was spot on (complete with gorgeous smile from Kit). And Ghost’s name was FINALLY mentioned, yipee! The shot of that group walking out of the tunnel with Jon leading was great. For me that’s foreshadowing for his future as LC
    Question: Is Daeron sent to Eastwatch in the book? And why the hell was Pyp made a steward? I thought he made the rangers…
    Ok gotta stop ranting about the NW or my post is gonna be way too long.
    Drogo
    The hair braiding scene with Dany was just lovely.
    Was blown away by his war speech. Even without subtitles, I think I would have been able to follow waht was going on just by his body language and interactions with Dany and Jorah.
    Ser Barristan: always pleased to see him around. The more the better.
    Tywin: Fantastic scene. Foreshadowing with the stag skinning. Charles Dance and NCW worked really well together. You can tell Jaime wants to make his father proud but fails utterly.
    Osha messing with Theon’s head. I laughed out loud at that. Great scene. And of course Maester Luwin dressing down Theon with one sentence.
    Likes:
    Renly. Can’t place specific reasons why but there you have it!
    Joffrey being a prick as usual. Really liking Jack Gleeson in this role.
    King Robert. ‘Nuf said.
    The last scene. I wanted to scream at Ned to run even though I knew he wouldn’t and couldn’t with that injury anyway! I wanted to punch LF in the face for betraying him, even though I knew what was coming.
    Dislike:
    LF and his whores scene. Completely trashy. Great dialogue from Aiden Gillen but the rest was utter rubbish. No need for it at all. I actually wanted to fast forward that but figured I’d miss some good stuff from Aiden.
    Sigh. I guess there’s always gonna be something that people will lose their heads over, can’t be avoided it seems. Pun wasn’t initially intended but when it did click with me, decided to leave it in!

  363. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    btw, I think they are making Little Finger’s overall goal fairly obtuse in the series. It looks to me like he’s willing to stop at nothing short of the throne itself. I think in a short-term sense he will be happy to increase power incrimentally, but ultimately he wants the iron trone. This may or may not be te case in the novels, but there have been several not-so-subtlyhints that he wants it all on HBO.

  364. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    Bro,

    Yes Dearon is sent to Eastwatch. The thinking was that as a singer, he might be able to make trading with merchants easier and more enjoyable.

  365. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    The change I thought most interestng here was that Pyp was sent to the stewards. He’s a ranger in the book.

  366. Bro
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    But doesn’t he end up back at Castle Black at some stage? I really need to re-read those, my brain’s like a sieve for details like that! Yeh, I wondered about Pyp is my post above as well. Why would they change that?
    BTW about the whore with Roz, I’ve read other comments saying that’s not Shae. Apparently Shae doesn’t turn up till ep 9.

  367. Lord Ned's Head
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Bro,

    I’mnot positive Bro, but I think that thery meet up again in AFFC when Same heads out to Braavos via Eastwatch. Dearon is assigned to help him recruit.

  368. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    If you read the majority of these comments they range from positive to really positive. There are a few nitpickers who post a lot though, like Smiling Knight and is tawdry ilk. Since this thread is for those of us who hav read the books there seem to be two types posters, the first and largets population are those of us who think this show is awesome, love the adaptation and although we have a few things that we are critical about we realize that this show is a solid A and we are just pleased it is being done so well so we focus on the things that we love about it.

    The other poster are just into negativity, they look for any issue to raise as a complaint to start a negative debate. I feel really badly for this group because they obviously loved the books, but are so caught up in them that they cannot appreciate the wonder that is this show. I truly hope that by the end of the season they can let go of this negativity and just enjoy the show.

    The acting on this show from the entire ensemble is just so much better than any other show on TV right now that it is ridiculous. We are really lucky to be able to watch this show people.

    So for all of you out there who are on the positive side of things don’t let the minority of nitpickers, whiners and negative posters get you down. We love the show and we will shout it from the rooftops.

  369. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Eric Niewohner,

    Statements like yours annoy the hell out of me. Just because people would have like to seen a closer adaptation to the books in one aspect of a character, we are all “negative whiners”. Many intelligent posts have been made in this thread and the other on the barking issue being a lazy mistake, that doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate the rest of the show.

  370. Bro
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head,

    Yeh, I remember that part. But it’s annoying me that I can’t remember exactly when he shows up again! The NW stuff is my fav from the books and hence the series so I would like to be able to recall as much detail as possible. I may have to start carrying my copy of AGoT around with me at all times! :L
    I have a feeling Daeron may have been around for the battle with the wildlings at the Wall but I can’t remember for certain.
    Ah hell I’m gonna have to look up my book in the morning. Unless some kind soul out there would care to put me at ease…….? Anyone, anyone at all? Don’t be shy. (What am I saying? No one on WiC.net is shy!)

  371. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Seriously, guys. The nitpickers have become cartoonish caricatures of themselves. It’s beyond stupid at this point. It’s embarrassing and sad.

  372. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head:
    Can someone please givemea quick answer as to whether or not Ros’ partner was Shae? She looked similair to the actress’s headshot to me.

    Not Shae. The character’s name is apparently Armeca.

  373. Bro
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Seriously, guys. The nitpickers have become cartoonish caricatures of themselves. It’s beyond stupid at this point. It’s embarrassing and sad.

    I hope I’m not considered to be one of these nitpickers… :(

  374. Zack
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Tend to agree with the criticisms re: Cersei, Ghost barking (and the unsuitable nature of these dogs in particular), and how boring it’s getting to be able to predict the weekly scene of developing character motivations during gratuitous nudity. Though I did enjoy said scene regardless, for exchanges like: “And what is it you want?” — “Oh, everything. Everything there is.” Gillen’s delivery is pitch perfect.

    Having the unpleasantness of the criticisms out of the way, we can get down to it–good god. Loved the episode. Tywin’s intro could not have been better. How cool was that symbolism of the stag skinning? (Very.) And Jaime at a loss for words for once! Ha!

    FINALLY more Wall scenes. Maybe the high point of the episode for me. I loved basically everything about these scenes.

    Drogo finally has some lengthy dialogue, and he killed with it!

    And finally…stupid, stupid, honorable idiot, Ned. You bozo. Great acting from Bean throughout the episode.

  375. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    I still don’t see him as a brunette, though. His hair is definitely a darker shade than Cersei’s and the children, but “brown” is not the word I would use. The only thing I can think is that they tried dye or a wig at some point and didn’t like the look of it, and then decided to leave it as is (with maybe a few highlights) to be “close enough.” At any rate, I can see how it’s disappointing that he doesn’t have the same shade of hair as it’s a Lannister trademark and would lend more significance to the moment when Ned is reading through the book of noble families.
    I didn’t mean to imply with my previous comment that your concerns over Jaime’s hair-color were baseless. I was merely trying to offer my rationalization for it, since I honestly haven’t given the actor’s hair a second-thought since the series started until I saw a concern over it on this board.
    Out of curiosity, have you been unsatisfied with NCW as Jaime in general? I think he’s quite good, actually. He’s not how I had always pictured the character, but I like what he’s doing with the role so far.

  376. Lex
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Bro: I hope I’m not considered to be one of these nitpickers…

    Based on your posts above, no. I’m not saying we shouldn’t critique the show at all (I post my own critiques after each episode, along with what I love).

    But the extreme nitpickers have lost all perspective (and lost touch with reality, IMO). They’re blowing the smallest things way out of proportion, to an absurd extent. Why? I have no idea. Maybe they’re just miserable people who don’t know how to enjoy anything. Maybe they need to tear something down to make themselves feel superior. Maybe they have no idea what adaptation means. Maybe they have no understanding of artistic license. Maybe they have no imagination or ability to be open minded about things.

    All my friends in real life, readers and non-readers alike (even the cynical ones) are LOVING the show.

  377. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    I actually don’t mind people nitpicking. We all have little details that we remember very fondly from each book, and for all the little moments that were brought to life, there have been changes or omissions which have been disappointing, but such is life. So, yeah, nitpicking is fine.
    What drives me batty, though, is the lack of respect that so many people show each other in their comments. Lex, I’m sure it makes you crazy as well, and I think that’s a far worse problem than people expressing their disappointment that the show failed to capture something from the book the way they hoped. Granted, it gets old when each “-gate” is treated as a harbinger of the apocalypse, and I agree that this attitude does lead to a general cartoonish quality to some nitpickers.

  378. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Eric Niewohner: The acting on this show from the entire ensemble is just so much better than any other show on TV right now that it is ridiculous. We are really lucky to be able to watch this show people.

    It’s excellent, to be sure, but I think a few of AMC’s offerings have better ensembles top to bottom.

  379. Ripley
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    This is the first episode where I felt they left out an important scene – Jon speaking to Maester Aemon about Sam. I always saw this as a reason that they chose Jon to be steward to Mormont and groom him to be commander. It showed a smarter side to Jon. Having read the books I already have a clear picture of who Jon Snow is, I’m curious to see what the new viewers think of him.

  380. dizzy_34
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Lord Ned’s Head: The change I thought most interestng here was that Pyp was sent to the stewards. He’s a ranger in the book.

    Yeah I noted that to the wife that that was a change from the books. I did like Sam’s line “Can you sing me a song, Pyp?”
    Only reaction I got from across the coach on this episode (besides gross out from the skinning the stag part) was “I knew that guy was bad!”

  381. scryer
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    A few late comments:

    Whoregate: I was not 100% a fan of the scene but I think it was the writers attempting to make a connection (and not quite pulling it off) between the sex on screen and Littlefinger’s modus operandi of seducing others into thinking what they want to think vs. attacking them head on. Given he seduced Ned later into thinking that Petyr was going to deliver him the City Watch, it’s a connection a writer might try to make. But I agree it went on a bit too long and there were other scenes that could have been kept instead. D&D are on record as really liking Roz/Esme and looking for ways to get her more involved in the show. Perhaps they got seduced by that.

    One reason for that: my wife asked me what eye candy there was for men on the show and I think it’s a surprisingly short list. Cersei is being played as older and colder, Catelyn is too old, the Stark girls are too young, and Daenerys is too young as well. That does not leave too many good looking women to ogle, at least until Shae shows up. Roz (and Doreah, another add-on sex scene participant) fits the bill.

    And no, that wasn’t Shae. Shae’s been cast, and that was not her. Having her associated with Littlefinger would open major plot problems later anyway.

    On Barkgate: I’m not nearly as offended by this as some, but one piece of information that might be pertinent: I read an authoritative-sounding post on a UK board indicating the CGI crew had been expanded from 6 in S1 to 30 in S2. That, if true, tells us a few things.

    1) HBO probably hedged its bets a bit in Season 1. It’s been noted that Rome had a lot more convincing armies… but Rome was a 40% higher budget and it killed the production in the end. I’ll take a few less CGI army extras in return for the quick S2 renewal.

    2) Given their hedging of bets, their approach to the direwolves in S1 makes sense to me. You already have a lot of original scene generation to build: the Wall, the Eyrie, Kings Landing, Winterfell. You also have our big season finale scene which absolutely has to be the right CGI content. And you have to stick to budget with hundreds of speaking parts and a lot of expensive costuming, prop, and sound work. Someone shows up with dogs that look the part, and you read S1 and realize that the wolves are only pivotal to about 4 scenes: Summer and Bran, Ghost retrieving the hand, Ghost scaring Rast, and Nymeria in the sword fight. There are no other scenes where the wolves have to DO things. It’s a sensible budget decision to make.

    And on Ghost in particular: You can’t have him not make a sound on screen without explaining it – non-readers will be too confused. So what are you going to do – another exposition scene about why Ghost doesn’t talk? That’s not an easy one to work into conversation. They have time to work the wolves in appropriately.

    3) If the CGI budget jump is true, I would just about guarantee that the direwolves will be 100% CGI next year. They need to grow larger than any live dog is going to, and the show runners clearly aren’t too confident in the existing wolves’ on-camera abilities. If they can manage decent looking werewolves for that Twilight stuff, it should be doable here. And again, how many scenes do the wolves actually act in? I count maybe a handful (won’t list to avoid spoilers).

    I’m disappointed – not surprised, but disappointed – at the amount of posting on the few negatives in what appears to me to be a winning production, against great odds of even being green lighted in the first place, let alone being talked about in Emmy conversations. It’s a phenomenon I see elsewhere too, though — the experts need to prove themselves as better by defending their expertise instead of sharing it freely. Human nature, I guess. Maybe they’ll add a scene where Grand Maester P disses Cressen via r-mail for not knowing how wide an electrum chain link needs to be.

  382. gurgi
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    PatD:
    GaR,

    I was basing my comment on all the positive remarks I’ve read onforum. Good to know others feel as I do.

    I swear, sometimes it’s as if she’s acting in a different movie than everyone else. I’d stop bragging about not having read the books, if I was her.

    This is perhaps the greatest statement yet. Exactly.

  383. Wolfheart
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard:
    Wolfheart,

    I still don’t see him as a brunette, though.His hair is definitely a darker shade than Cersei’s and the children, but “brown” is not the word I would use.The only thing I can think is that they tried dye or a wig at some point and didn’t like the look of it, and then decided to leave it as is (with maybe a few highlights) to be “close enough.”At any rate, I can see how it’s disappointing that he doesn’t have the same shade of hair as it’s a Lannister trademark and would lend more significance to the moment when Ned is reading through the book of noble families.
    I didn’t mean to imply with my previous comment that your concerns over Jaime’s hair-color were baseless.I was merely trying to offer my rationalization for it, since I honestly haven’t given the actor’s hair a second-thought since the series started until I saw a concern over it on this board.
    Out of curiosity, have you been unsatisfied with NCW as Jaime in general?I think he’s quite good, actually.He’s not how I had always pictured the character, but I like what he’s doing with the role so far.

    Let me prove myself with this lovely still shot of Sean Bean(Ned) and Jaime (NCW) during their duel in the streets. LOOK AT THE HAIR COLORS. YOu can not honestly tell me its not the damn near the same hair color. But when you compare Dinklage to Bean to NCW its quite obvious.
    http://winter-is-coming.net/wp-content/gallery/official-promo-images/the-wolf-and-the-lion-06-1920.jpg
    I particullary havent LOVED NCW or David and Dans take on Jaime. He has lost his wit and cocky arrogance.

  384. DH87
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    scryer: D&D are on record as really liking Roz/Esme and looking for ways to get her more involved in the show. Perhaps they got seduced by that.

    If this is true, they are sadly mistaken. This actress is neither beautiful nor charismatic nor compelling to watch. She has one facial expression, a knowing smirk that is already becoming tiresome. The camera does her no favors and she is not going to wear well. I hope they reconsider. No whore in the Seven Kingdoms would get more screen time than Queen Cersei and Roz is perilously close to over-exposure—in every sense of the word.

  385. Ed
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart: Let me prove myself with this lovely still shot of Sean Bean(Ned) and Jaime (NCW) during their duel in the streets. LOOK AT THE HAIR COLORS. YOu can not honestly tell me its not the damn near the same hair color. But when you compare Dinklage to Bean to NCW its quite obvious.
    http://winter-is-coming.net/wp-content/gallery/official-promo-images/the-wolf-and-the-lion-06-1920.jpg
    I particullary havent LOVED NCW or David and Dans take on Jaime. He has lost his wit and cocky arrogance.

    Sigh… Are you really doing freeze-frame screen shots to compare HAIR COLORS??? Jesus H Christ you nitpickers are outta control…

  386. Wolfheart
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Ed: Sigh…Are you really doing freeze-frame screen shots to compare HAIR COLORS??? Jesus H Christ you nitpickers are outta control…

    I didn’t do the freeze frame. Its in the media images here on this WiC site. His hair color is kinda important to the whole incest/bastard child plot.

    It just doesnt make sense. They manage to get All the other lannisters hair right. Hell even Lancels..but fuck up with Jaime.

  387. GaR
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    scryer,

    Daenerys is too young?

    How old are you? o_O

    Daenerys is played by a 23 year old and is too young. Cersei is played by a 37 year old and is too old…

    You are too bloody fussy about age. I think they’re both hot and will continue to enjoy ogling them both.

    ::edit::

    I agree with pretty much everything else you said, though.

  388. ThrameofGones
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    OH MAN, Tywin SMILED a couple times in his scene with Jaime, OH SHIT SON! He never EVER smiles, the only time he ever did was secretly with Cersei when she was a child. MAJOR FUCK UP, OH DAMN, the whole crew should be fired for that shit, UNBELIEVABLE, it matters almost as much as Ghost barking, BARKING for fuck’s sake, FUCKING BULLSHIT…and how much does that matter to the story? ZERO. He barked, big deal. Dany and Viserys don’t have purple eyes, big deal. Everyone is older, so what. A lot of things have changed and are going to, it’s inevitable, those of you that actually get so bothered by the tiny details that don’t matter to the actual story are likely to have a heart attack very soon from watching the series. It’s a show, enjoy it.

  389. The DarkStar
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    miltos Yerolemou: and now for my two cents.
    E.P.I.S.O.D.E 8
    I don’t think i need to say anything else….’just so’

    !!! I love me my Syrio!!!! <3

  390. dobesol
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Roz can go hang out with annoying Lucy from Boardwalk Empire on Whore Island. I dislike them both for distracting me from good acting. Enough revelations through sex!

    Loved the Wall scenes, Robert’s deathbed scene, the wine seller scene…

    I think if the producers want to add some sex to the show they need to start sexing up Cersei- I feel like shes way too rational and cold and in control in the series. In the books she seemed much more emotional and single minded, not very well thought out and paranoid, but manipulative…and she used her charms to manipulate men.

    And I wish Ghost was silent. Let the other wolves bark. I totally rolled my eyes at that bark.

    Great ending, I would have loved more throne room…

  391. The DarkStar
    Posted May 30, 2011 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    Ingemar Svensson: Did anyone notice the broom behind Tonks, ehm…I mean Osha…Coincidence?

    http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2131/osha.png

    good spot!

  392. KG
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    To be so attached to one throwaway line in a one-thousand page book is not nitpicking. It’s the pathetic wail of an eternal basement dweller.

    Have some pride, folks.

  393. jhalex
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    So I for one was actually happy with the “fore[play]shadowing” scene. Looking back, LF’s whole thing about “the man wants to believe you… you just have to convince him that he’s the one who could win you over” – LF could be talking about his machinations with Ned. Ned wants to believe that Cat’s childhood friend can be counted on because Ned is just so honorable. LF convinces Ned that yes, Ned is so much better than all the other men that for him, LF would do anything. I haven’t gone back to watch it again, but I do wonder how much of whst appeared to be straight up sexual direction could be heard in a totally different light.

    (admittedly, LF probably has no interest in playing with Ned’s bum so I wouldn’t take it all literally)

  394. nitpicker
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 1:43 am | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    My siblings and I were all bleach blonde as kids. My sisters remained blonde, but my brother and I gradually darkened into that dishwater blonde-brown, similar to what Jaime has in the show.

    So it makes perfect sense to me, and is not jarring at all.

  395. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    Damryn of Dorne,

    If you fully read my comments you will see that I stated the majority of posters are positive and the minority are whiny nitpickers and I specifically point out Smiling Knight and his followers. If you are one of his followers and agree with his rather rampant negativity then yes I am calling you a negative whiner. We all have some criticisms, but when the negatives are the resaons you post at a place where the majority of the people are positive then you have to ask yourself why are you posting. I can find issues and problems in any TV show, movie or book that I watch or read, but if what I am watching or reading is an A for me I see no reason take a mostly negative tone because it isn’t an A+.

    Also anybody who doesn’t understand that the show is going to have a different take on some characters and events is being really naive about the adaptation process. Overall they have been very faithful and in my mind have actually given some of the characters a better depth and more motivation for why they are the way they are. So if my comments “annoy the hell out of you” too bad because that means you are one of the mostly negative posters, however if all you have is a criticism or two and your posts are mostly postiive then I don’t see what I would have to say would bother you.

    Finally I don’t care how intelligently somebody tries to be overtly negative about this show because when you compare this show to just about anything else on TV it is in the top 1% of what is out there right now and so being super negative about this show is patently ridiculous. It is also in poor taste considering the thread we are posting on is a very positive thread as are most of the posters and therefore someone who is trying to tear the show down is just being negative for no good purpose and I will continue to speak out against that type of behaivor.

  396. Elena
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    Well I love Lena Headey as Cersei. I think she’s doing a great job.

  397. Shaggydog
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    [...]

    And what’s this?Pyp is a singer?Are we going to get some singing here soon?Some songs of the Night’s Watch?

    I’m waiting to hear The Maiden and the Bear. First book’s almost done and not even a single verse…

  398. clemintine
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    All I know is, Ros better be Jon’s mother or something equally important.

    I thought she was going to be revealed in this episode as a superpowered secret spy for Cersei/Varys/Littlefinger. Nope, she’s still a random prostitute.

    Or she wins the Game of Thrones through blackmailing everyone. I bet by the series conclusion, she will have also collected Sansa’s, Cersei’s, Joffry’s, Cat’s, Edmure’s, Robb’s, Renly’s, Euron’s, Stannis’s, Mel’s, Oberyn’s, Dany’s, Biter’s, Sandor’s, Tommin’s, Brienne’s and Arya’s deepest confessions as well. Ros for Queen!

    Who want’s to bet that by season 3/4/5 she heads over the Essos to become one of the heads of the dragon? Maybe she’ll be all three heads of the dragon!

    Or she will become Westros’s top psychiatrist.

    Ros: *clipboard and pencil in hand* So Rorge, when your mother bit off your nose and fed it to the goats, how did it make you feel?
    Rorge: My mommy never loved me! *sobs*

    Otherwise, I’m getting tired of her pointless character.

  399. 2Readers1apartment
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    maxlongstreet:
    Ugghh. Worst episode yet by far. Particularly bad on the heels of the best episode. Full of made-up scenes like those with Tywin and Petyr where the characters’ motivations are awkwardly laid out for slow viewers. Littlefinger confiding in a couple of whores? Putting a knife to Ned Stark’s throat? Come on. Sometimes less is more.

    I have a tough road to hoe getting my wife to watch going forward, since she basically has said she’s not interested in watching a show so lame and obvious.

    I couldn’t agree more on your critique of this episode, spoke for me. Each of those scenes bothered me immensely and felt so dumbed down, no subtlety. Tywin giving a coming of manhood speech and some crazily prideful overdone rant to Jaime…ahhhgggg.. Still definitely watching the rest of the series and have very high hopes for episode 8 given that Martin wrote it. Death to Ros the imaginary whore of secrets! and no she cant be Jon’s mother…wasn’t her identity told in the books?

  400. clemintine
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 5:14 am | Permalink

    Oh, and the scene with Osha and Maester Luwin=win. But Osha and Theon=fail. We already get it. Theon is a dick who no one respects; there’s enough time to develop him in the next season, for now, I wish they’d stop focusing on him. It would have been better to have Robb or Bran interact with her.

    Maybe I’m sounding overly negative. Overall I love it. Things like lack of purple eyes, Ghost barking, Tywin sans sideburns and prepping his own game (I liked that; he does it himself not because he can’t afford someone else to do it, but because he’s badass and butchers his own kills and enjoys it), little details don’t phase me.

    The things I have issues with is which characters they choose to spend time one that I think should not be priorities, prepping up an inserted character Ros, or boasting Theon’s screentime when he’s not supposed to have much of a role in season 1, when there is more actual book material they could have been using instead.

  401. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire:

    Smiling Knight,

    I do think that readers of this site are a bit sensitive to criticism.Most of the time I don’t agree with your comments.However, I do think that it is important to have someone like you to put out a point of view that is hyper-protective of the books or hyper-critical about this adaption.(Thanks for spending a good deal of time contributing to the conversations.)

    As I noted before, it is very easy to scroll pass someone’s comments if one get tired of another person’s posts.There is no need to constantly get annoyed by other’s different take of this show.(This is coming from one who read almost all the comments in the majority of the threads.)

    If every posters praise every episode as the greatest things on earth (like the overwelming applauses on Harry Lloyd), threads could become boring after awhile.

    My 2 cents.

    Nice to hear, i guess but im not over or hyper protective of the books nor am i hyper critical about the show.

    To me, someone who would take up the quest to be over protective of the books, whatever that really means, would need to be a incredible moron.
    Because, other then someone attempting to burn all of them i dont see what this protection could entail.

    Im also not hyper critical of the adaptation because if i was then my posts would be as long as whole threads here.
    No, im quite satisfied to be a personal nemesis of Eric, Lex and few other screaming apologists in the cheerleader camp.
    (not really, i dont give a flying fuck about them but this is what they think anyway)

    Other than that, nice to see there are people who can deal with a bit of criticism.
    Which, i think is actually the majority around here.

    PatD:

    The Smiling Knight: all your condescension aside, I think your inability to enjoy the Tywin/Jamie scene is due to a major imagination dysfunction on your part.

    Nah, its probably hysteria, frigidity and neurosis.

    Tywin is a cunning, brutal manipulator. It’s not unimaginable that he set that scene, in a tent, with the foul stinks as purposeful enhancement of his word assault on his reckless son (watch Jamie’s face… he actually gives his father a look of “Okay. I get it. You’re punishing me with this foulness and the whole Tywin as Butcher act”).

    Tywin Lannister does not need any foul stinks to enhance his “word assault”.

    I mean…. hahahah what the fucking fuck… hahahaha….

    What’s more, how do we know that was his own, personal, sleeping tent? Just because it was richly furnished does not mean it was his living quarters. Tywin’s dumphouse is probably richly furnished.

    I dont care but now that you mention it – it is extremely stupid to do dressing in a tent, on the furniture, like that.

    This is a fantasy, dude. Not an historical recreation. Critical awareness is a good thing… to a point… but when it overshadows your imagination and your ability to enjoy a generally excellent adaptation, then it stops being such a good thing.

    I wouldnt touch that kind of imagination with a ten foot pole.

  402. Cersei's Cunt
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Has Barkgate finally petered out? At the end of the season, can we vote for our favourite Gate?

    Since GRRM is writing the next episode, can we cancel next week’s overly nitpicky Gate and call it canon?

    You all may think Roz is a more booby Poochie but once she is revealed as a secret Targaryen (and future WhoreQueen of Westeros), you’ll see her unending and excruciating screentime in a different light.

  403. Knurk
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Man, I can’t wait to see what George has done with Syrio in the next episode!

  404. fer
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    have not have time to read the whole thread but just wanted to say that while the sex scene was longer than needed I a have not a huge problem with it what is seen….. but the sounds, oh the sounds……. my housemates thought I was watching porn

  405. Lina
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    I’m impressed by the fact that the momentum of the series didn’t slow down during this episode, even though there’s very little actual action. Most of it is “behind-the-scenes” or “talking-in-rooms” type drama. But it worked so well!!

    Shortlist of Awesomeness: Tywin, Mark Addy’s farewell, Drogo’s speech, Emilia’s eyes, Littlefinger’s monologue, Osha & Maester Luwin tag-team owning Theon, “I always wanted to be a wizard.”

    Tywin – Charles Dance is perfect. No bald head/mutton chops, but he definitely has the physical presence I always imagined Tywin to possess. Some people have complained about “Skinninggate” or whatever, but I do not find it strange that Lord Lannister would dress his own kill. Think about it: Even the richest, most powerful men have their hobbies, things they enjoy doing. I wouldn’t think it strange that Lord Tywin enjoys hunting and butchering his own prey. Further, I think they were trying to show him not as a lord and a commander, but as a father. This was his scene with Jaime, not with his war council. This was him commenting on Lannister family affairs, not on battle plans. I think they tried to show him in a more private moment, and giving him a task he may do alone or only with his closest relatives helped set up that scene. The symbolism of the dead stag is obvious, but I think there’s another metaphor here: Just as he easily cuts the skin off the animal, he too strips Jaime of confidence. We’ve seen that Jaime is bold and arrogant, but in front of Tywin, he’s reduced to almost a dead animal. NCW’s acting was superb.

    Robert - I will miss Mark Addy. I really enjoyed him as Robert. He brought a certain warmth to the character. My favorite part about this scene was how he still worked in a few quiet chuckles, keeping in character until the very end. I wish they had added the “I’ll give Lyanna your love” line from the book, but no biggie.

    Drogo - The speech was infinitely badass. Jason Momoa is fantastic when he actually gets to talk! Dany’s reaction was also really well-done by Emilia. She looks almost pained or nervous, but I think that on a deeper level, we see a display of euphoria. Or maybe ecstasy is the better word – a deep, almost mystical feeling that borders on arousal, pain, and a mix of other things. I think she has realized that she has a man who will fight to the ends of the earth for her, and she finally believes she will go home. These are both things she has never known, and she gets them both at the same time.

    About the gates:

    Barkgate - I tried to be a staunch book fan, but I can’t make myself care. Yes, it’s out of character that Ghost barked. No, he should not have. Yes, some non-reader sound tech probably added the bark in post-production. But does it REALLY matter? Ghost’s silence is a symbolism of Jon Snow’s bastard lineage, but so far, his silence has not played any direct role in the story. So I just don’t see the need to spend the energy bitching about the bark. I’d much rather have barking Ghost than no Ghost at all.

    Whoregate - This one is justified. No need. Overly gratuitous sex scene, something HBO is never afraid to use (Lucy and Nelson in Boardwalk, half of the True Blood sex scenes…). Littlefinger’s narration was ace; a great description of his modus operandi. The “I won’t fight them, I’ll fuck them” is perfect, because that really IS what he does. He seduces people, uses them, and gets rid of them when they serve no further purpose. But the scene was too long and unnecessarily graphic. I have no problem with sex in TV, and I understand that GRRM writes about sex in a very direct, non-glorifying way. But I found the whores detracted from Littlefinger and cheapened the scene. A few other people have said it, but this type of scene makes me a bit embarrassed to recommend the show to non-readers.

    I’m not sure if this gate has been discussed yet, but can we just talk about Ros for a second? Doesn’t it take about a month – or a few weeks at least – to travel from Winterfell to King’s Landing? Wasn’t she on the back of a vegetable cart during the last episode? If we are to assume the storylines are running parallel to each other and happening in the same time frame, that means Ros made it to KL before Robert returned from his hunting trip. Travelgate is unnecessary, but I just find myself hating on Ros, so I think I’m using this as a reason to bitch about her CONSTANT presence. At first I thought consolidating the whores of Westeros into Ros may have been a good idea, but now I wonder if she’s causing more problems than she’s worth.

  406. The Winter Rose
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Enjoyed the episode. I really don’t understand this Barkgate thing, and I don’t care. Sexposition however… yeaaaaah. ‘Twas a bit too much for me. Made me cringe. It felt very tacky. And I wasn’t sure how convinced I was about Littlefinger explaining his past to some whores. But Aiden Gillen is so faboulous I guess I don’t care that much by the end of the day.

  407. The Winter Rose
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Lina: Whoregate - This one is justified. No need. Overly gratuitous sex scene, something HBO is never afraid to use (Lucy and Nelson in Boardwalk, half of the True Blood sex scenes…). Littlefinger’s narration was ace; a great description of his modus operandi. The “I won’t fight them, I’ll fuck them” is perfect, because that really IS what he does. He seduces people, uses them, and gets rid of them when they serve no further purpose. But the scene was too long and unnecessarily graphic. I have no problem with sex in TV, and I understand that GRRM writes about sex in a very direct, non-glorifying way. But I found the whores detracted from Littlefinger and cheapened the scene. A few other people have said it, but this type of scene makes me a bit embarrassed to recommend the show to non-readers.

    This prety much exactly sums up how I felt about that scene.

  408. Had to Step In
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Steel_Wind,

    Have you ever dressed out a deer? I have. You don’t do it in your own tent. I might buy Tywin doing it himself but never in his own silk tent among his furniture. Seriously. Go find an abattoir, a slaugherhouse. Take a good sniff. The very first thing Tywin did was slit that thing open and pull out the entrails. In his own tent. Whomever wrote that episode has obviously never done so, or they’d have written it differently.

    Langkard, you seem to be looking for things about which to complain. Tywin isn’t going to care about that tent. Did you notice the hundreds of identical tents in the opening scene? I’m pretty sure he can find a new tent if he needs to.

  409. dizzy_34
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    I’m telling you all right now, get ready for Ros to be the Allayaya role. Does it bother me? A little bit because storywise Tyrion going to Littlefinger’s brothel wouldn’t make a whole lot of since from Tyrion’s POV. But the show’s Tyrion has already had an established “relationship” with the Ros character. So logistics wise, it makes sense to combine a few of the secondary characters for the show.

  410. Carlos
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Regarding the change of Pyps backstory… anyone else think it looks like their setting him up to take Dareon role in AFFC? i.e. traveling with Sam and getting killed by Arya

  411. Lina
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    dizzy_34:
    I’m telling you all right now, get ready for Ros to be the Allayaya role. Does it bother me? A little bit because storywise Tyrion going to Littlefinger’s brothel wouldn’t make a whole lot of since from Tyrion’s POV. But the show’s Tyrion has already had an established “relationship” with the Ros character. So logistics wise, it makes sense to combine a few of the secondary characters for the show.

    This is an example of why I think Ros causes more trouble than what she’s worth. Tyrion would never go to Littlefinger’s brothel. And I pray they do not have her acting as a go-between and offering Tyrion information about Littlefinger’s plans, or vice versa.

  412. coraxery
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    When Greatjon’s fingers getting eaten by Grey Wind or Shaggydog being completely written out of the Winterfell episodes, then I think people have a right to complain. Its these things that are being excised so that we get Whoregate. I think the dire wolves are expensive to film with the handlers and all of that stuff needed for the days they are on set, its a little bit disappointing they seem to be getting cut out of the show because of it.

    I have no problem with the additional scenes ala Tywin/Jaime, or Jorah/Viserys – those were great additions, just don’t give me Whoregate because of some sort of skin quota.

  413. Knurk
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    finally started reading some more comments here and then I read that KLB was in this episode. WUT? I change my point of view on this episode entirely! Hope to see some emmynods going his way by the end of the season.

    coraxery,

    that scene is IN, it has been confirmed!

  414. blackear
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    ThrameofGones,

    THIS. Yes.

  415. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34,
    Lina,

    I think this is another case of complaining about a cut or a change before we even know whether it actually is cut or changed (see also: Bran’s dreams, San/San, etc.). There has been no indication that Ros will be replacing Chataya or Alayaya; it is pure speculation based on the fact that she is a whore in KL. So a bit of a premature complaint, IMO.

    And even if she were replacing those characters, wouldn’t that mean she would have to own the brothel? So if they are setting her up to replace them, I would hope that they would add in there that she purchased the brothel from Littlefinger or something, because yes, having Tyrion hide Shae at LF’s brothel is problematic.

  416. dizzy_34
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Of coarse it’s speculation. I’m not complaining about Ros, I just can see where they’re going with her ‘inclusion’. Who knows maybe that’s the last we’ll see of her, but I doubt it. Maybe she’ll get fed up with Littlefinger and go to a different brothel.

  417. Adrian
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    I dunno if this has been mentioned yet…anyone else think it’s weird, given that we know why Mance Rayder left the Night’s Watch, that they seem to have no problem with Jon…and only Jon…wearing a grey/white fur?

    I mean, I think it’s no big deal but with people complaining about how “Tywin wouldn’t do things we have no idea whether or not Tywin would do,” it seems strange that no one has complained about something that’s specifically mentioned in the text.

  418. Lina
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    The way I see it, it would be easy enough to just cut Chataya completely and slot Ros into Yaya’s role – a prostitute to help Tyrion hide his liaisons with Shae. She wouldn’t really need to own the brothel to do this. It is completely reasonable to assume this could happen, consider how often Ros has come up in various plotlines already (Tyrion’s talk with Theon, Theon’s backstory, Jon Snow’s speech to Sam, and now Littlefinger…).

    I’m not trying to start Yayagate, because like you said, we don’t know if this will indeed happen. But it’s fair to consider the “what if” and the consequences the change could have on the story. I used to think Ros was a good addition to the show logistically and narratively. She allowed HBO to save resources and create necessary exposition. But now, after E7, I just fear that her addition to the storyline could get messy, because she’s entangled with too many powerful/notable people in Westeros. I.e. her relationships with Tyrion and Littlefinger in the (possible!) event that she assumes Yaya’s role. D&D and Cogman and company sure as hell know better than I do, but I can’t help approaching Ros with concern.

  419. Tar Kidho
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    fer: my housemates thought I was watching porn

    During that particular scene, I think we all have to agree we were :-)

  420. Harry Hogg
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Really enjoyed this episode, from a tv POV this series is getting better and better. It’s including some changes from the book but as a whole these have worked so far.
    Having said that I do have a few gripes, one being making Tywin a butcher. I mean it was a great scene with him butchering the stag, symbolic and all, but seemed a little out of character. Another problem I had was LF explaining things to his whore’s, again I know this is just a technique for him to explain his motives etc to the audience.
    They have also changed some details about Sam and his story, he seems less nervous and shy then he did at this stage of ASOIAF. Overall this just makes things a little simpler for the audience and the writers but we lose a bit of characterisation of Jon.
    And to end this on a high note, Ghost is back!

  421. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Adrian: I dunno if this has been mentioned yet…anyone else think it’s weird, given that we know why Mance Rayder left the Night’s Watch, that they seem to have no problem with Jon…and only Jon…wearing a grey/white fur?I mean, I think it’s no big deal but with people complaining about how “Tywin wouldn’t do things we have no idea whether or not Tywin would do,” it seems strange that no one has complained about something that’s specifically mentioned in the text.

    The first time I noticed it was during the “graduation” scene, but I also noticed how much it made Jon stand out in the crowd, which may be its purpose. Personally it doesn’t bother me in the least, as they haven’t really emphasized the “all-in-black” aspect of the Night’s Watch overmuch.

  422. scryer
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34,

    I agree on this one. They’ve already gotten grief on the Dothraki and racial stereotypes. Roz as Alayaya makes a lot of sense in that light.

  423. Ed
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Good call Carlos – I had not considered that! BUT remember Dareon is an actual character in the show, so I don’t know…

    Carlos:
    Regarding the change of Pyps backstory… anyone else think it looks like their setting him up to take Dareon role in AFFC? i.e. traveling with Sam and getting killed by Arya

  424. Adrian
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    I don’t think that makes too much sense. I think it’s just because at that point in the book when Jon is being all whiny about being a steward, it’s Dareon who tells him not to bitch about what’s fair. I think they just gave it to Pyp because he’s already a somewhat established character as Jon and Sam’s friend, as opposed to Dareon who just showed up.

    I think it would sour people’s opinions of Arya, honestly, if she killed someone that viewers will have known by that point for three seasons as one of Jon’s best friends

  425. SeanFan
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Despite the fact that Ned is still polite in his words to Cersei, as he’s a gentleman, his hand really conveys what he feels! LOL…….

    http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4737/fingernb.jpg

  426. Lex
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight
    No, im quite satisfied to be a personal nemesis of Eric, Lex and few other screaming apologists in the cheerleader camp.
    (not really, i dont give a flying fuck about them but this is what they think anyway)

    So I’m a screaming cheerleader apologist, am I? Even though I routinely mention my own criticisms of the show after each episode? This just shows (once again) that you are truly out of touch with reality.

  427. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    I especially love the double-standard here. If you think the show sucks, you are just stating your opinion and being honest. If you enjoy the show, it is because you are a cheerleader and an apologist. It couldn’t possibly be that you actually like the show. That would be impossible, since clearly, the show sucks. A very arrogant stance to take.

  428. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    What’s ridiculous here is the Smiling Knight is generally taken to be the most obvious representative of “The show sucks!” even though he, on occasion, will manage to put in the fine print that he’s actually enjoying the show, right after a several page dissertation about everthing that’s wrong with it. And I think he means it, but some people really like to emphasize the negative.

  429. Andrew son of Endrew
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Adrian,

    Thank you. I Couldnt have said it better.

  430. dtb
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    TSK makes all the rest of us nitpickers look bad!

    P.S. I can’t wait for the Tywin vs Tyrion scene in the next episode, among other things..

  431. dtb
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    SeanFan:
    Despite the fact that Ned is still polite in his words to Cersei, as he’s a gentleman, his hand really conveys what he feels! LOL…….

    http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4737/fingernb.jpg

    That’s hilarious!

  432. John Engedal
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    I would just like to point out that I love this show. I DID enjoy episodes 5 and 6 a bit more than 7, but it´s still the best episode of anything ever, just because it is in fact an episode of a show called Game Of Thrones.

  433. Cersei's Cunt
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Leave the Smiling Knight alone!

    He’s our Dolorous Edd, our Brita Perry, our Debbie Downer, our Comic Book Guy! Sure, he’s an ridiculously nit-picky, hostile, smug, fun-vampire, but he”s our fun vampire.

    No lie, whenever I check out the latest episode recaps, I immediately search for his comments to see what alleged crime against fiction and good taste he’s gotten himself into a frothing rage about this week.

  434. oenone
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: nor am i hyper critical about the show.

    This made me laugh.

  435. Alex Harman
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart: Yes, lets hope David and Dan didn’t cut out that awesome line from the Bannermen of the North. “The king in the North” line with people repeating in in fervor would be a great way to end on of the last scenes in Winterfell on Season 1.

    Actually, that scene takes place at Riverrun, after Robb’s back-to-back victories in the Battle of the Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps break the Lannisters’ siege of that castle. It’s significant that it’s not only the Northmen proclaiming him King in the North: the Riverlands lords join in just as enthusiastically.

  436. GaR
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    oenone,

    Same here. I wish we had a forum so I could use it for a sig.

  437. KG
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    miltos Yerolemou,

    Been looking forward to it since Episode 1 :)

    En garde! —)—————-

  438. Sinnfrei
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Well, one’s for sure: You Americans (as well as an increasingly lot of people in the world nowadays), really have a totally screwed up sense of morality …

  439. Alex Harman
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34:
    I’m telling you all right now, get ready for Ros to be the Allayaya role. Does it bother me? A little bit because storywise Tyrion going to Littlefinger’s brothel wouldn’t make a whole lot of since from Tyrion’s POV. But the show’s Tyrion has already had an established “relationship” with the Ros character. So logistics wise, it makes sense to combine a few of the secondary characters for the show.

    Huh. I kind of thought Littlefinger did have some ownership interest in Chataya’s, as the eponymous owner-manager’s silent partner. He’s certainly familiar with it: he took Ned there to see Robert’s youngest bastard.

    SeanFan:
    Despite the fact that Ned is still polite in his words to Cersei, as he’s a gentleman, his hand really conveys what he feels! LOL…….

    http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4737/fingernb.jpg

    Heh! I’ll bet Sean Bean did that on purpose, too.

  440. Tar Kidho
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Sinnfrei:
    Well, one’s for sure: You Americans (as well as an increasingly lot of people in the world nowadays), really have a totally screwed up sense of morality …

    Watch out people, new Troll on the block – better not feed it…

  441. Bro
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    2Readers1apartment: Death to Ros the imaginary whore of secrets! and no she cant be Jon’s mother…wasn’t her identity told in the books?

    Jeez I really hope not! Didn’t Jon say he almost slept with her? I can just about deal with brother on sister action but son on mother? Someone pass me a bucket! :L :L

  442. Bro
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Lina: I’m not sure if this gate has been discussed yet, but can we just talk about Ros for a second?Doesn’t it take about a month – or a few weeks at least – to travel from Winterfell to King’s Landing?Wasn’t she on the back of a vegetable cart during the last episode?If we are to assume the storylines are running parallel to each other and happening in the same time frame, that means Ros made it to KL before Robert returned from his hunting trip.Travelgate is unnecessary, but I just find myself hating on Ros, so I think I’m using this as a reason to bitch about her CONSTANT presence.At first I thought consolidating the whores of Westeros into Ros may have been a good idea, but now I wonder if she’s causing more problems than she’s worth.

    But in last weeks ep, didn’t she say she planned on catching a ship in White Harbour or some such place? Wouldn’t that lessen her journey to KL considerably?

  443. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Lina,

    Ros mentioned that she was going to White Harbor to catch a ship to Kings Landing, she wasn’t taking the Kingsroad. Still strains credulity that she could get there so quickly, but then for me her expanded part itself strains credulity more than that.

  444. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Sinnfrei,

    Are you referring to something specific here? As an American I find non sequiturs deeply offensive and an affront to my fucked up morality.

  445. Bro
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Carlos:
    Regarding the change of Pyps backstory… anyone else think it looks like their setting him up to take Dareon role in AFFC? i.e. traveling with Sam and getting killed by Arya

    But Daeron was in that ep Carlos. Didn’t you hear Maester Aemon instructing him to report to some fellow or other and not to mention anything about his nose? So why would they swap the characters around when both are already there?

  446. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Lex: I think it would sour people’s opinions of Arya, honestly, if she killed someone that viewers will have known by that point for three seasons as one of Jon’s best friends

    You write more posts about people that criticize something then writing about the show itself.

    Winter Is Coming:
    Lex,
    I especially love the double-standard here. If you think the show sucks, you are just stating your opinion and being honest. If you enjoy the show, it is because you are a cheerleader and an apologist. It couldn’t possibly be that you actually like the show. That would be impossible, since clearly, the show sucks. A very arrogant stance to take.

    The show does not suck and i never said it. Some scenes and some decisions suck, thats all.

    Tywins introduction was not completely bad, for example, its just that its Randyll Tarly we got instead of Tywin. :shrug:

    As for few people i mentioned, its only because they spend too much time throwing insults around at anyone that criticizes anything, not because they like the show.
    I should really just ignore them.

    Btw, are we going to have a Mark Addy send-off thread?
    That, at least, is someone worthy of praise.

  447. Alex
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    To paraphrase an old Yiddish saying, if one person calls you a troll, call him a jerk; if two people call you troll, tell them to go jump in a lake; but if three people call you a troll, you’d better start looking for a bridge to live under, before dawn catches you out and turns you into a big ugly statue. You’re well past three by now.

  448. Bro
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Adrian:
    I dunno if this has been mentioned yet…anyone else think it’s weird, given that we know why Mance Rayder left the Night’s Watch, that they seem to have no problem with Jon…and only Jon…wearing a grey/white fur?

    I noticed that when he arrived at the Wall first day but I just assumed it was so he stuck out for viewers when he’s in a large group, such as the grad scene. There was one shot where the view was from on high showing all the recruits seated and stood before LC Mormont. I spotted Jon straight away simply from the collar on his cloak (and maybe from his fabulous hair!)

  449. The Smiling Knight
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Alex:
    The Smiling Knight,
    To paraphrase an old Yiddish saying, if one person calls you a troll, call him a jerk; if two people call you troll, tell them to go jump in a lake; but if three people call you a troll, you’d better start looking for a bridge to live under, before dawn catches you out and turns you into a big ugly statue.You’re well past three by now.

    Thats… incredibly inane.
    I dont think that actually works… even in elementary schools anymore.

    Oy vey, what embarrassment…. A brokh tsu dayn lebn, pisher.

  450. Ed
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Fu&%^ you.

    Sinnfrei:
    Well, one’s for sure: You Americans (as well as an increasingly lot of people in the world nowadays), really have a totally screwed up sense of morality …

  451. McKee
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    OK, I actually have read this entire thread.

    I’ll tell yew what.

    I’ve only had one watch at the episode, so these are my first impressions.

    I remember being afraid of the opening scene, because someone not GRRM is writing Tywin Lannister. Is this just going to sound like fan-fic? I thought the script and his delivery were pitch perfect. I especially remember his upbraiding Jaime caring too much about the opinions of others. To which he replies, “I couldn’t care less what people think!” Lord Tywin: “Yes, that’s what you want people to think.” Classic paternal verbal abuse, right there. That’s verbal immasculation going on. Chilling.

    Then, we got to whoregate. I went into it thinking of it as whoregate because I read this thread. Oh, here comes whoregate, I thought. So you guys softened the room up for me, so-to-speak. I was distracted by it, and I have to confess that it actually might make my love of this show just slightly embarassing. I might lean over and just mention, you know, this part wasn’t in the books. Just sayin’.

    But I’m surprised that no one derived from it what I did. I figured they put that in because TV Littlefinger is freakin’ insane. He gets my personal aversion to sexposition. He gets it, he’s found my weak point. If ever there was a person in AGOT that was capable of sexposition, its this guy. Well, I admit, Tyrion can pull it off. We forgive him these little lapses in judgement.

    Everyone else, what were you thinking? Catelyn, playfully nuzzling Lord stark while forbidding him to leave? Why? Theon, screwing a whore while she mocks you? I thought you were a sadist, man! Viserys, at least you get some credit for waking up and realizing you weren’t having a good time.

    Book Littlefinger, he just didn’t seem like a psychopath to me. Not right out front like that. TV Littlefinger is two Jokers short of a Batman. TV Littlefinger is villianous, amiright? Book Littlefinger is a consummate opportunist.

    There’s actually an entire Littlefinger Anti-Defamation League on a forum somewhere that can do this better than I can. I’ll let them take it from here.

    This next comment is for someone special out there. You know who you are:

    direwolves < JEYNE POOLE

    In case you can't tell, this shows floors me every Sunday. I feel the same gravity (concerning the broad plot strokes) as I did when reading the book. Except with the book, I could just keep reading and find out what happens right away.

    I guess what I'm saying is that my biggest complaint about the show is that there isn't more of it.

  452. purplejilly
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    McKee: I guess what I’m saying is that my biggest complaint about the show is that there isn’t more of it.

    That’s my main complaint too. I think so much of what bothers me could be solved if they had more episodes to explain things better, or longer episodes each week.

  453. purplejilly
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    Knurk: finally started reading some more comments here and then I read that KLB was in this episode. WUT? I change my point of view on this episode entirely! Hope to see some emmynods going his way by the end of the season

    Yes! He has palpable anxiety on his face as he tells Ned the King is dead. You can feel the anxiety running through the entire household staff by his expression alone. Lancel can look pretty and pour the wine, but he’s no KLB!

  454. purplejilly
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Carlos: Regarding the change of Pyps backstory… anyone else think it looks like their setting him up to take Dareon role in AFFC? i.e. traveling with Sam and getting killed by Arya

    I just hope they are setting him up so we can see Pyp naked and singing..

  455. Lancel_lannister
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    hehehe. I also want to see more Lancel Lannister. The actor who interpret the character, is beautiful. I hope that HBO will dare to show the sex scenes with Cersei.
    In this season I do not think showing a scene of sex.

  456. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Lancel_lannister,

    But will it be doggystyle?

  457. Lex
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    You’re quoting someone else, under my name. Probably a mistake on your part, but I’m just pointing it out.

  458. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:

    Oy vey, what embarrassment…. A brokh tsu dayn lebn, pisher.

    Your life IS a disaster. You are a worthless troll, and what’s worse? You revel in it.

  459. DH87
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34: I’m not complaining about Ros, I just can see where they’re going with her ‘inclusion’.

    We’ve heard that D&D love Ros and are looking for ways to expand her role—perhaps she is Jon’s long lost mother? Or another Baratheon bastard? Or Tywin’s new ladyfriend?

    The actress is neither comely, nor impressive as an actress (she seems to have one expression, a bemused sneer) and already drastically over-exposed, literally. We’d better prepare for her taking up plenty of screen time. When showrunners get a bee in their bonnet like this, they can seldom be dissuaded.

  460. Mosh
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Lancel looks like Link to me. Which is awesome.

  461. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    “…I’m not a prude, but…”
    “It has nothing to do with the fact that I’m American, but…”
    “I like this show, but HBO has crossed a line…”
    “I enjoy some nudity as much as the next person, but…”
    “If I wanted softcore pornography, I’d get it elsewhere…”
    “Nudity doesn’t bother me one bit, but…”
    “This doesn’t happen in the books, but…”
    “…play with her butt, but…”

    Can anyone hear me? It’s difficult to get on with this monologue over all the loud moaning.

    Move.
    On.

    We’ve seen:

    Multiple beheadings
    Decapitated horses
    Neck geysers
    Jory getting skullfucked with a dagger
    Death, death, death
    More Stark swordsmen getting impaled than I care to count
    Through-the-torso, blood geyser, kick-you-through-the-Moon-Door slaying
    Beat-down naked assassin with jiggling junk as prelude to execution by dragging
    A whorehouse orgy
    Contractual rape
    Saddle-sore doggy style
    Incest
    Theon’s bouncing junk
    A less-sociopathic ‘Basic Instinct’ moment in the back of a root vegetable carriage
    Two instances of blowjob slurping
    Blackberry jam

    If you’re suddenly uncomfortable watching this show with ma, pa or the children, perhaps you’ve only recently changed your mental batteries.

    I’ve actually become convinced that the biggest problem in that scene is the sound editing; if the whore practice was muted just a bit, people would be so much calmer. Looking back, it’s remarkable how little you really see. It’s mostly writhing bodies in profile with hand-to-fanny action masked by legs.

    My list of things I liked about the scene:

    1.) The aforementioned subtext wherein marginal, aspirational characters with strong senses of who they are despite their political weaknesses feel most comfortable exposing themselves to whores.
    2.) The metaphor whereby faking orgasm is paralleled with Machiavellian cunning. Let us rely on Littlefinger’s own words:

    “Slowly. You’re not fooling them. They just paid you, they know what you are. They know its all just an act. Your job is to make them forget what they know. Now that takes time. You need to ease into it. Go ahead, ease into it. He’s winning you over in spite of yourself. You’re starting to like this. He wants to believe you. He’s enjoyed his cock since he was old enough to play with it, why shouldn’t you? He knows he’s better than other men. He’s always known it deep down inside, now he has proof. He’s so good he’s reaching something deep inside of you that no one even knew was there, overcoming your very nature.”

    Sounds like the whores certainly managed to push more than a few of us into the “this isn’t an act” camp given how much attention they’ve received. Littlefinger is a financial and political prostitute and yet winds up as an important confidant to many major players. Interesting, then, that he attributes “being a confidant” as the impetus behind his first and only love. Tyrion might be the best at going down on Dornish women, but Littlefinger’s skills with the tongue are perhaps even more persuasive.
    3.) In all honesty, I find Esme Bianco attractive. But while I might make jokes to the contrary, that scene was not arousing. And I’m quite sure it wasn’t supposed to be. Esme Bianco herself gives a nice laugh before letting Littlefinger finish his story. As was pointed out earlier, there’s something comical and charming about the entire scene.
    4.) People go on about how Littlefinger undercut his own impenetrability by ‘revealing his plans and motivations’ so deliberately, but he really didn’t. He wove a tapestry out of gleanings we’ve already received, and did so elegantly. He spoke to a whore candidly but with a great deal of theatricality and when it came time for him to admit what he truly wanted, he suddenly grew terse and inward-turning. “Everything there is” and a smile. The question of how truly motivated he is by “Just Cat” remains. And the smile at the very end of the scene? Amazing.
    5.) The worst aspect of the scene is its placement (i.e. the fact that it somewhat telegraphed the possibility of LF’s impending betrayal of Ned by being an early scene in the episode). That said, I felt this was compensated for by LF’s alternate proposal to Ned in the hours before the confrontation in the throne room. I was not left with the impression that the betrayal was inevitable, only that it was inevitable if Ned chose as he did.
    6.) Really, truly, honestly, sincerely – the scene wasn’t pornographic. It wasn’t even ‘softcore’ porn.
    7.) Littlefinger’s immediate transition back into the Master of Coin / pimp – he takes the quill, makes his plans, goes back to the books, lets them know that they’ll be working tonight (e.g. he’s satisfied with the performance).

    So on and so forth. There’s a lot to like about it. The exposition is long, and yet most people aren’t finding fault with the speech or with its duration. But the duration of the ‘play sex’ is timed to sync with the cadence of the speech itself. If you don’t get the implicit parallel (which is very immediate, very deliberate) between the whores and Littlefinger, the sex might be seen as some distraction. Maybe it’s just me and the degree to which my brain has been saturated with sexual imagery over my 25 years on this planet, but I wasn’t distracted by the moaning or the skin. All of it enhanced my appreciation of Littlefinger’s speech. And in a room full of actors, it seemed damn natural. Acting *is* their authentic mode. And bold, explicit portrayals of sex, faked or otherwise? Totally Martinesque.

    But disagree with me openly and vociferously. That’s fine. The bit I find truly troublesome is how quickly these sex-related criticisms degenerate into a fundamental condemnation of the production team itself.

    I’m also going to note that I have no problem with criticism in and of itself. I come away with criticisms after almost every episode, but a useful strategy (given the nature of HBO dramas) is to try to anticipate intent. I approach scenes by offering the benefit of the doubt and I see the adaptation as a unique work. I’ll judge the season when it concludes, because even though I feel the production staff has done a good job of creating thematic links between different scenarios in individual episodes, this is still very much a “novelistic” adaptation. I’m not going to moan about every discrepancy because I’m not going to approach this as a dogmatic literalist.

    To restate what I said last week:

    Some people completely lack the ability to see this adaptation on its own terms; their preconceived idols and notions act as a filter through which the world and their experiences of the television show pass, and any discrepancies between these experiences and their internal, meticulous, obsessive blueprints creates existential rage. It’s like some kind of fucked up nerdrage engine where the structure is made of fragile obsessions and the fuel is the hard work of others. The end result is a combustion of monumental bullshit by people whose scathing sarcasm, bitterness and resentment is so overpowering that one wonders how they could possibly claim to derive love, joy, excitement and happiness from the source material in the first place. Some critics have legitimate, thoughtful concerns. Others come off as chronic curmudgeons hellbent on tenuously converting as many people to a state of utter dismay as is possible only before using “but I pretty much like the show” as a kind of addendum-shield. “If I just tack this onto the end of my routine spew, I’ll blend right in.”

    To further repeat:

    Think what you will of the series, but it’s clearly had so, so much attention lavished on it. Nobody can charge these people with not trying hard enough or haphazardly hacking the books to pieces. But that’s what some seem destined to do, strangely enough, and it’s difficult to fathom what would make them happy. So, again, this isn’t to say that criticisms aren’t allowed. Obviously they are. But how those criticisms are made is so important, as is recognizing what assumptions exist beneath those criticisms. Much of this scathing behavior boils down to “HBO only CARES about showing tits and cock” or “because Ghost didn’t bark the producers of this show obviously have absolutely no allegiance to the source material”. There’s always this hyperbolic attempt to obliterate the goodwill of other people who are probably more talented and more invested than almost everyone on these boards, either through a direct assault or through a hyperbolic miscalculation of what can priorities can be reasonably expected of the producers.

    Example 1 (what we rarely get): “I’m disappointed that Ghost makes sounds in a few of his key scenes. This is mainly because I think it’s a hallmark trait of his character and reflects on Jon Snow as well–there’s something haunting and eerie about possessing such strength and ferociousness but being largely invisible, forgotten, on the margins. In an important way, I think Ghost parallels Jon Snow’s function as a character and we lose some of that when we see him growling and barking like any other wolf. It’s just not as powerful as I’d hoped.”

    My response would be that I agree with some of this, but that I don’t think Jon’s characterization would be all that impacted by Ghost’s silence on film, and as such it’s a minor discrepancy. My earlier point about having to deliberately contextualize the silence in order for it to “work” on screen remains.

    Example 2: “BARK BARK! WOOF WOOF! WHAT THE FUCK?! NICE SUBTLETY, FUCKING PRODUCERS!”

    There’s a difference between these two examples. I’ll leave it to you to figure out.

  462. Ed
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    LOL!!! (love it!)

    Mosh:
    Lancel looks like Link to me. Which is awesome.

  463. Eric Niewohner
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Very nice post and I bet that took you a while to write, lol. But really I enjoyed the context, the clarity and the intent behind the post. Unfortunately the people who should really read it won’t and even if they did I doubt they would understand what you are saying since they come on here with negative intent and people with that type of attitude are almost impossible to reason with, because they don’t want to be reasoned with they just want to tear stuff down.

    But kudos to you for a most excellent post.

  464. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Eric Niewohner:
    NousWanderer,

    Very nice post and I bet that took you a while to write, lol. But really I enjoyed the context, the clarity and the intent behind the post. Unfortunately the people who should really read it won’t and even if they did I doubt they would understand what you are saying since they come on here with negative intent and people with that type of attitude are almost impossible to reason with, because they don’t want to be reasoned with they just want to tear stuff down.

    But kudos to you for a most excellent post.

    Thank you, but the typo I bolded (“you’re” rather than “your”) is staring me down like a machete-wielding motherfucker out of a deleted scene from Apocalypse Now. Curse the edit timer’s expiry.

    Twitch.

    Twitch.

    As penance for this grave error, I’ll willingly offer myself as a living sacrifice whenever the next pro-series bonfire comes around.

    Thankfully, FaBio just now reached in, fixed the only typo I’ve ever made in my entire bloody life, and he thoroughly, frankly, forthrightly and with verve supported my bottom. It’s not quite playing with my ass, but it feels good! He’s still going to hire me, some day, some way. For something. He just doesn’t know what.

  465. Eric Niewohner
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    Smiling Knight,

    For you to use the word nemesis would imply that you are somehow some sort of threat, which is laughable. You are more of an irritant like a mosquito and every time you buzz by I will verbally squash you.

    What is sad is the moderator who runs this thread is telling you that you are overly negative, many posters are telling you that same thing yet you continue to bash the show. Wake up my man and smell the coffee you are acting like some sort of crazy demagouge who will rant and rave when nobody wants to hear it. I don’t understand why you even watch the show if you have so many complaints about it. Hmm maybe it is because you just like to complain about stuff because that is sure what it seems like.

    As far as being an apologist for the show if that means that I think the show is amazing, fantastic and incredible then I am an apologist. I certainly don’t think the show is perfect and there are some things that they could have done better but like I have said before I would give this show a 95% and I am not going to complain because it is not perfect.

    I loved the books and know that just like an any adaptation of a book to a movie or TV show that the books will always be better that is just a fact. However knowing that and understanding the producers have to wade through a huge book and make ten great hours of TV without a doubt they have done an amazing job of adaptation.

    What is too bad is that you will never get this because you come from a place of negative intent and I come from a place of positive intent, as do most of the posters on this forum. I really do hope that you will be able to let go of your unreasonable wish that the show slavishly and without question match up to your exact perspective on the books and are able to enjoy the show for what it is and that is one of the best shows on TV.

  466. Eric Niewohner
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Lol, in the world of posting those things happen and sometimes we don’t spell a word properly, but it is all cool because the context of your post is the thing that matters.

  467. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,
    In translation:
    Look at me i can copy paste my previous post and pretend its still valid and im smart and i know what everyone else is REALLY thinking – and if you dont then i will tell you what you should be thinking!
    And if anyone debunks this pile of steaming crap ill just wait and then post it again sometime later! Like i just did!

    Eric Niewohner:

    For you to use the word nemesis would imply that you are somehow some sort of threat, which is laughable. You are more of an irritant like a mosquito and every time you buzz by I will verbally squash you.

    : laughing my ass off:
    “I will verbally squash you! ” – hahahahaha… oh god… hahaha

    What is too bad is that you will never get this because you come from a place of negative intent and I come from a place of positive intent,

    :falls from the chair laughing:

  468. fer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Who else thinks the Drogo speech scene is going to become the source of zillions of youtube parodies a la Hitler’s speech from Downfall and become the thing the show is most known for

  469. Hear Me Roar
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    fer,

    You should start with the first one … let the trickle become a flood :) I’d love that.

  470. 2Readers1apartment
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    twincast:
    I don’t know if the Tywin scene was a necessary addition, but it was a good one IMHO.

    But having to endure the endless minutes of cheesy whore training, just to, when it finally gains a semblance of plot relevance two thirds through it, sum up LF’s backstory, all of which we’ve heard before, some of it even more than once… What the Fuck? I didn’t mind any of the other sex(ual) scenes before, but that was just cheap titillation and pure filler in a series that doesn’t have even a second to spare on filler material.

    Concerning (dire) wolves not barking and Ghost being mute: Well, of course it would be better if it weren’t happening, but at least we got to see him again and it’s not a deal breaker by any means for me anyway.

    The rest was good, though, but there were no real highlights aside from maybe the final scene (and, okay, Drogo’s speech was awesomesauce) and the brothel scene drags it way down to worst (‘though still good) episode so far with plenty of breathing room to the lowest of the other six.

    QFT.

  471. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:01 am | Permalink

    :a hand appears from under the desk, grabs around for a pen and starts writing:

    To Winter and FaB and whomever it may concern.

    Just wanted to say that im not jumping into flamewars intentionally.
    I really wish there was a few good old melees where me and these guys could discuss things with some sharp and blunt arguments but yknow, modern times and all…
    Its just hard for me to resist all these troll posts of various forms so i retaliate once in a while.
    But it really leads nowhere and it does get tiresome to come up with witty retorts that just woosh over those heads – even if they may be fun for others.

    After all, nobody is paying me to entertain.

    So, ill try to cut down on this a bit in the future.

    Of course, i know you would want me to cut down on other stuff instead.
    Well, at least for the next episode im not expecting having much material to criticize.

    I think its high time we saw how a proper maester does it, anyway.

    -edit-
    btw… have you guys thought of maybe having a Smiling Knight recap?
    No? Just a thought…

  472. Joakim
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    Yeekim:
    The Ghost looks, sounds and feels nothing like a (dire)wolf and everything like a big, friendly husky.

    And I don’t care. The show still completely rocks. (y)

    +1 to that! I can take a few deviations (such as Tywin’s missing mutton chops and cape), especially when they do so many things so well. The overall quality of this show is amazing, in all departments. Charles Dance’s scene was on par with Oscar winning films and performances, so is Nina Gold’s casting. In context of the overall awesomeness of this show, I can live with a few hickups and mistakes.

    Oh, and +1 to what Ghost said. Not sure that’s the best solution, but I agree with the reasoning.

  473. Lancel_Lannister
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Sorry, but I do not know what you mean.

  474. Shock Me
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Looking forward to the DVDs of this show. I’ve read the books. For the first time in 30 years I’m very tempted to subscribe to HBO. Perhaps for Seaon 2?

    If they took a crack at Robert Jordan’s Eye of the World series I’d be bitching right along with you about how Liandrin Sedai’s hair should be colored and braided.

    On a side note, Lena Heady would have rocked as Catelyn Stark and Stoneheart. In my mind’s eye, Cersei is more of a Nicole Kidman type .

    Anyone know when the first season will be released on DVD?

  475. Lina
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Bro,
    Steven Swanson,
    You are both right. But still, there’s no way she got down the road to White Harbor and then around the Vale to King’s Landing in the same time it took Robert to hunt boar. Unless Robert was hunting boar for a month, but then wouldn’t Ned’s leg have healed more? See what Ros has caused? Chain combo of bad timing!

    Before everyone says I am nitpicking, allow me to say I am joking. I actually don’t really give a shit about the potential discrepancy in the storyline timing. It doesn’t affect the narrative so it’s no big deal. For me, it’s just an example of the potential the character has to complicate future plotlines. :(

  476. Knurk
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Lina,

    you have a very valid point. Catelyn and ser Rodrik, Tyrion, Ros all seem to have a super-transporter in their asses. It’ll make the Arya aCoK and Sam aFfC story-line’s a bit hard to grasp because their travel takes a half or entire season.

  477. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Lina,

    I tentatively agree with you. Thus far, the chronology is where the show has proven least capable, particularly with regards to the establishment of time and distance. The approach has been fast and loose, and the team isn’t really doing a great deal to fill audiences in with either the 1.) relative travel times required between locations or 2.) a clear measure of how much time has passed within one location between events.

    That said, this approach hasn’t presented any problems in the narrative, but I remain curious to see if there’s any mental disconnect for audience members when season 2 rolls around and the size of Westeros is really felt. I’m thinking there won’t be any glaring concerns, but I’m also thinking it’s a facet of the show that the production team might concertedly try to tighten up.

  478. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer: Thankfully, FaBio just now reached in, fixed the only typo I’ve ever made in my entire bloody life, and he thoroughly, frankly, forthrightly and with verve supported my bottom. It’s not quite playing with my ass, but it feels good! He’s still going to hire me, some day, some way. For something. He just doesn’t know what.

    I am touched. Literally, it seems.

  479. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer, this post is so full of win that the other posts surrounding it have also become full of win just by being in close proximity to it.

    The Smiling Knight, whatever bro. You can post what you want because I don’t think anyone around here takes you seriously anymore. I know for me, and I think many others, you have become a joke character; a bad parody of the über-nerd that thinks he knows best how to adapt something and whines whenever the adaptation isn’t directly inline with his supposedly “perfect” version. You are also ridiculously arrogant and think you are much more clever than you actually are. So yes, you are entertaining. But not in the way you think. We are laughing at you, not with you.

  480. digtastik
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    “So Ned and Cat got married as a result of Ned’s brother gettting killed? I can sort of understand how a relationship like that could result in the guy having a bastard child.” -Missus Dig after viewing whoregate.

    I guess she wasn’t too put off by the distractions.

  481. Shinyteapot
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    I enjoyed the episode, but not as much as last week. I think maybe knowing what’s coming spoilt it a little.

    So the best scene for me was one not from the book. I liked Tywin’s introduction, and am a little surprised that what I thought was the most impressive prop ever was actually a real animal. That tent must have stank by the end of the day. I just hope the animal wasn’t kept in heat so long the meat spoiled- would be a shame to waste it!

    Tywin was perfect though, and Jaime suitably in awe of his father. The scene worked well I think. Including the very obvious symbolism.

    The scenes at (and beyond) the Wall were great, and all the characters felt very realistic. Jon finding out his assignment was exactly as irritating as I found him in the book. I really wish the point of his persuading his superiors to let Sam graduate with the others had been left in though- I rather liked that, and it’s a good counterpoint to his whining later on. He can be thoughtful sometimes- but he’s an annoying teenager sometimes too (very much like reality).

    The heart tree was beautiful and I was pleased to see Ghost (and hear his name!), don’t care that he barked. I didn’t even remember that Ghost from the book was mute until someone mentioned it here. Real wolves can make a variety of noises just like dogs, barking amongst them. Seeing him run off as they came through the tunnel reminded me of a puppy let off the lead for the first time, it made me smile.

    I liked all Dany’s scenes with Drogo this episode, his ‘dance’ seemed a bit over the top but it fits with the culture as portrayed on screen. And they do appear to be genuinely in love now. Jorah remains perfect, but it’s interesting that he actually has his pardon (would Joffrey recognise it? I suppose he has no reason not to). I suppose it’s to make his decision to protect Dany more dramatic?

    Osha is different to the books but so far no complaints, she comes across well. Her chat with Luwin seemed quite friendly. I always thought they were a little more antagonistic, but this works well too. Luwin seemed less dismissive of Osha’s story than I expected- certainly nowhere near as much as Tyrion was of the stories of White Walkers.

    Enough Theon though. I’m sure new viewers get it by now. I don’t really like this emphasis on his situation as ‘hostage’- in the books I got the impression his friendship with Robb was quite genuine and he really intended to get his father to help out until Balon started having a go at him, and the change of heart was largely prompted by this. Non-readers will not be in the least bit surprised by his actions now. He’s grown up in Winterfell and been treated well, there’s too much emphasis on a resentment that should be more in the back of his mind than always at the front.

    I’d very happily swap most of the Theon stuff for more Robb. One of the things I was really looking forward to for the show was getting more insight into non-POV characters. In some cases it’s worked brilliantly (Viserys!) but Robb has really been sidelined. Great shame.

    Of course all the really interesting stuff was in King’s Landing. I thought Ned’s confrontation with Cersei played out well, though I wish she’d slapped him. Speaking of scenes with non-POV characters, I was rather hoping we’d see Robert’s encounter with the boar, though I presume it would have been difficult and costly to film. Mark Addy has been superb and I felt genuinely sad at Robert’s passing. Loved that he had humour throughout- and thought it cruel but fitting that his last conversation with his ‘son’ essentially went ‘Sorry for not being there. I shouldn’t have been a father. Now go away’. Surely even Robert could have managed something encouraging?

    The whole scene with Robert and Ned was great. I don’t think Ned did himself any favours through the whole episode- to be expected of course, but even so, coming out of Robert’s room, after making sure the King is given a drug that will help him sleep so can’t be asked questions, then immediately saying he’s changed his mind about the order Ned disagreed with- if I were there I’d be suspicious! We all know it’s the truth, but I wonder if any of the characters suspected Ned of lying to save Dany?

    Littlefinger was great in his scenes with Ned, less so in the brothel scene. Much of his speech was done very well, but the line about wanting ‘everything’ just somehow seemed off to me. I wasn’t keen on the scene anyway- made his betrayal too obvious and only reinterated information the audience already knows. The whore audition really was gratuitous. No particular objection to sex scenes, but it seems there are a lot of them, and mostly either unpleasant or paid for. We haven’t seen Dany and Drogo sex scenes since they started getting along- only when she hated it and the first time she tried to gain some power in the relationship through sex.

    I’d happily have swapped that scene for some Robb character development!

    Looking forward to next week.

  482. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    So my sister, whom I watch with (non-reader, and I’ve mentioned her before to try and gauge what non readers glean from the adaptation) gleaned this:

    While musing on the scenes with Jon at the Wall two days after ep7 she says to me “I bet if that old guy dies (Commander Mormont) Jon becomes the commander of the Night’s Watch.”

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Now I’ve been really good about being vague and keeping a straight face with her regarding her questions, and she has always been on the right track with the story. and for instance, ep 7 was a complete surprise for her, as I was able to keep Roberts hunting accident and the final scene at bay by answering vaguely her questions from last week. She honestly thought that as soon as Robert get back from the hunt, Ned would tell him the secret, the Lannister’s would get arrested, and all would be well. She was actually excited for the episode, thinking that this is what would happen. Her reactions? Trepidation and fear when Robert came back mortally wounded…and then, after the final scene, she said “I HATE this f-ing show!” and ran from the room sobbing, and I mean sobbing, gutwrenching, body heaving sobs. I can’t tell you HOW F-ING BAD I FELT, for her, at that moment. (I was crying too).

    The next day, she FINALLY asked me for the book, which I’ve been trying to get her to read for years, and can’t believe it took 7 episodes. (I thought she’d ask sooner). but anyway…

    When two days later, when she just pulled this theory about Jon out of thin air (I mean, one comment from Sam, and she got this?) well, I guess I was so surprised I couldn’t keep a straight face. My eyes popped out of my head, and after composing myself and trying to be vague again, she just knew.

    Sooooo….How’s that for non-reader’s “not being able to figure out what’s going on?”

  483. Shinyteapot
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Forgot to mention- best line of the episode:

    Maester Aemon (NB he’s blind)- Make No Comment About His Nose

    Must be quite something :p

  484. SJGIM
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I am also loving this adaptation, and you very eloquently expressed what I believe is a valid and probably correct interpretation of what Littlefinger’s whoregate scene was meant for. I don’t believe I have yet weighed in on this topic. The problem I believe is with the medium. 1st off, I have to admit that I am a bit of a prude. That being said, if TV was something that people regularly watched alone and unobserved as with reading a book, there would be no problem with such a scene. However if, like me, you enjoy watching shows with others and then discussing them, watching a sex scene with any group of people can be awkward, not matter how little you see (and you’re right, the sounds in the background didn’t help). Particularly one that is around 3 min. long (don’t quote me on this I didn’t check.)
    For some, that are watching this with family, the awkwardness is increased. It wasn’t the scene itself that bothered me, but the uncomfortable atmosphere, however short, it caused in the room. I re-watch the episodes and had no problem with it when watching it on my own (and NOT for that reason, you pervs).

    On a separate note, I at least will also be more likely to discuss on this forum the things from each episode I dislike, as opposed to the things about the show I like, simply because if I talked about the things I liked I would be spending hours after each episode typing out these comments. I assume it is the same with others on the forum, although some do talk about how they dislike the show or a scene “ruins” an episode.

    Bro: Bro
    Posted May 31, 2011 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Adrian:
    I dunno if this has been mentioned yet…anyone else think it’s weird, given that we know why Mance Rayder left the Night’s Watch, that they seem to have no problem with Jon…and only Jon…wearing a grey/white fur?

    I noticed that when he arrived at the Wall first day but I just assumed it was so he stuck out for viewers when he’s in a large group, such as the grad scene. There was one shot where the view was from on high showing all the recruits seated and stood before LC Mormont. I spotted Jon straight away simply from the collar on his cloak (and maybe from his fabulous hair!)

    I noticed that as well. That was actually my biggest complaint of the episode because of the Mance storyline later; ironically (to me) most don’t seem to think it’s a big deal. It is probably just to make him stand out. Still hope they make Jon dye it before or during next episode. I even mentioned this while watching.

  485. paulgude
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I’ve noticed a fairly prevalent trend of folks saying they’re judging the show on its own merits, but then faulting it from deviating from the books. It’s often hidden under a veneer of “the way it happened in the book made sense, someone like [CHARACTER X] would never do [ACTION Y] like they did in the show.”

    The fact that they’ve actually just seen [CHARACTER X] do [ACTION Y] doesn’t matter, because they feel (however subconsciously) the TV show doesn’t trump the book reality. They can rationalize that they’re coming to this conclusion differently, of course, like:

    “No, I’m being objective. This scene is out of character because someone as secretive as Littlefinger wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores.”

    The problem with this rationalization is that Littlefinger obviously *isn’t* so secretive that he wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores. He just did. Someone as secretive as BOOK Littlefinger wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores.

    Book Littlefinger is based on GRRM’s text and your imagination. TV Littlefinger is based on the script based on GRRM’s text and Aidan Gillen’s interpretation. Contents and motivation may have shifted during transport.

    Same goes for stag-skinning Tywin, even barking Ghost. These aren’t the characters you know. You may love it or hate it, but it’s going to keep happening.

    I personally like it, as it brings something new to the table. I like being surprised now and again.

  486. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,
    Jesus, how pathetic…

    MetalgoddessAMB,

    How can it be really a wonder she guessed about Jon becoming LC? Samwell just flat out said it. It wasnt even a hint – it was a direct obvious reveal.
    Even more so obvious and expected because Jon just lost his expected position of a ranger.

    Nice way of completely ruining any kind of suspense of that whole storyline.
    Yeah, it must be because “the adaptation isn’t directly inline with my supposedly “perfect” version.” eh Winter?

    Because only a completely insane and delusional person could ever take offense at the whole plotline of the Jon at the Wall being spoiled for all the future seasons right at the beginning, right?

    No, no, lets hear how it makes perfect sense instead!

  487. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Or put in another way: If you push your own head far enough into your own ass you will eventually see the light.

  488. Rosmustdie
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    I can’t say Smiling Knight doesn’t haven’t the truth of some things.

  489. clemintine
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    fer:

    Who else thinks the Drogo speech scene is going to become the source of zillions of youtube parodies a la Hitler’s speech from Downfall and become the thing the show is most known for

    Lol, if I had the vidding skills I’d do it. This has memealicious written all over it. Forget bringing the Dorthaki Hord to Westros. I so want Drogo to clean out Stephen Harper, abolish the senate, introduce proportional representation, and instate Daenerys Stormborn, First of Her Name, as Queen of Canada.

    NousWanderer: That said, this approach hasn’t presented any problems in the narrative, but I remain curious to see if there’s any mental disconnect for audience members when season 2 rolls around and the size of Westeros is really felt. I’m thinking there won’t be any glaring concerns, but I’m also thinking it’s a facet of the show that the production team might concertedly try to tighten up.

    At least though in season 2 the land in ravaged by war and brigands so that could account for considerable slowdown.

  490. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: If you’re suddenly uncomfortable watching this show with ma, pa or the children, perhaps you’ve only recently changed your mental batteries.

    I’m not suddenly uncomfortable with these things, and the sexposition. I’ve been uncomfortable with tham all along. And as the episodes progress, I keep pointing out the new ones, and comment again about how it feels to me (and apparently a lot of other people).
    With your “Move on” command, it feels like you are trying to make people feel ashamed, embarassed or uncomfortable about expressing their opinion here.
    Some people are just as uncomfortable with all the violence, and have stated as much. So listing all the violence and sex that came before doesn’t automatically mean people will now accept any new ass play thrown in their faces with embarassingly loud moaning.

    Just yesterday, the guy who plays Sam posted on Twitter that he watched ep. 7 with his mom and dad, and that during and after Ep. 7, due to ‘certain scenes’ everyone started straight ahead at the TV and made no comments, and his parents didn’t look at him or talk to him since the show ended. When the gratuitous and overdone sex scenes are surprising even other actors in the show in their finished versions, I don’t think the posters who complain here are being petty, moralistic American prudes for commenting that they didn’t like them.

    I didn’t like porn or watch it before Game of Thrones, and I didn’t realize I had to be “porndoctrinated” to watch Game of Thrones and not be offended or annoyed. But it sure does seem to be turning into that. Before the show aired, I told my family and friends about it all the time. Now I don’t promote it anymore. I’m still watching, for now, but it’s getting harder as I get more disappointed.

  491. Tysnow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    I actually like the series deviations from the book, sort of an alternative Westeros universe. Tolkine fans have two versions of LOTR, and soon Hobbit, book and movie. I like this as it leaves room for surprises (the vast majority of them pleasant atm). George said the deviations would expand as seasons progress (can’t wait) so hang on, hardcore anti-deviants.
    I love that there are two distinct variations of ASoIF and look forward to July 12, and read the GRRM universe version.

  492. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: How can it be really a wonder she guessed about Jon becoming LC? Samwell just flat out said it. It wasnt even a hint – it was a direct obvious reveal.

    I was more than a little annoyed at that. I would have preferred that they come to that realization over the course of some weeks, you know, first let Ser Alliser gloat, let Jon pout, and then as Jon goes about his duties working for the LC, and tells Sam comments that the LC might make, things he has Jon do, they might slowly come to the realization that the LC has something else in mind, and Ser Alliser has been outplayed. This is another example of them not having enough time to let the story unfold by itself – they have to slam it into our face quick before it’s time to get back to more whores in training.

  493. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Rosmustdie:
    The Smiling Knight,

    I can’t say Smiling Knight doesn’t haven’t the truth of some things.

    I have to say I’ve agreed with a lot of his points, I just think most people just don’t like the way he presents his arguments, and then keeps going on and on and on and on and on……….

  494. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    So now you’re complaining about Sam revealing his Lord Commander theory to Jon because it’s too obvious? Even though it took place exactly the same way in the book?

  495. Brynn
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Wow, long thread.

    That just goes to show what an impact this episode has had. I didn’t even read through the HBO GO early viewing thread.

    This episode was full of win!

    Although I am realizing more with each episode how this is an adaptation of the book and not necessarily faithful to every detail of the book. If I accept that and let it go, the series would likely be nearly flawless.

    Tywin skinning the stag was a great scene, not just for symbolism, but in showing the powerful character that is Tywin. And NCW is just fantastic. While his characterization is already incorporating some of the dimensions that only is revealed in later books, I am glad D&D is doing it now. Jaime is such a complex character that I think he does need a few seasons to percolate rather than letting it all come out in season 3.

    Sexposition. Yeah, a little repetitive tactic. I was concentrating to hear everything that Petyr was saying through that scene, sex was distracting if anything else. But I can’t think of another way that exposition could have been delivered. And I agree with earlier poster that LF’s directions to the whores DEFINITELY had double meaning. Well done there.

    I am not sure I agree with D&D in exposing Petyr’s motivations so openly and early, but it does set up the Throne Room scene nicely. But in the books, LF was way more mysterious to me and was revealed to be so ambitious in later books. Then I tell myself, this is an adaptation, not a retelling…

    Ghost! YAY! I was so happy to see Ghost, I didn’t even notice the bark. And Jon and Sam are fantastic. I am sad though if they are not going to show that Jon spoke to the Maester on Sam’s behalf.

    The Throne Room scene. I knew what was going to happen, but it still punched me in the gut and made me angry. Good job!

    Now here are the things that I have trouble letting go:

    1) Not seeing ENOUGH Ghost/Direwolves. Was this the first episode that Jon even called him “Ghost”? I know likely the Direwolves’ importance must have been drastically reduced because of the problem with the dogs themselves, but still. Makes me pout a little. I hope next season we get some CGI and get more Direwolves! The show has not even named Grey Wind or Summer yet.

    2) Not seeing enough Robb. Too much Theon. Come on. Even the non-reader GETS that Theon is a prisoner/ward/guest. Enough already! D&D could have cut out one Theon scene and put in a Robb scene where he is struggling to take his father’s place. I want more emotional impact when “King in the North!” echoes in the vaulted halls.

    3) Sansa. Yes, I am Team Arya. Sansa was my least favorite character in the books. But I REALLY do not like the fact that D&D portrays her as an obnoxious brat. Where are the lady manners that is her mantra in the books? Her naivete? The show has done a WONDERFUL job of showing the love between Arya and Ned, but the only emotion I’ve seen from Sansa towards her father so far was aloofness, selfishness, or disdain. I am afraid that I will not be as emotionally invested in the ultimate scene where Sansa is shown the heads of her father or the Septa. And that’s a shame since that was pretty much the only scene I really cared about in the books where Sansa was concerned.

    Okay. :breath: This is an adaptation. Adaptation.

    Other than those points, I am completely hooked! I want more Tyrion! More Arya! I hope Syrio scene is going to be awesome next episode.

  496. Vino Mano
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone notice when Sam says “one horn blast for ranger returning…two for wildlings and three…” Jon just cuts him off…

  497. ManilaJake
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    While your defense of sexual nudity in theory is astute, your sole focus on the show blinds you to the context of HBO and its track record of using female nudity solely to attract eyeballs. Perhaps GoT is the perfect vehicle to imbue HBO’s softcore phallacy (sic) of water-cooler ratings with narrative purpose. But it doesn’t change the impression that HBO shows boobs as fanservice.

  498. SJGIM
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson:
    The Smiling Knight,

    So now you’re complaining about Sam revealing his Lord Commander theory to Jon because it’s too obvious? Even though it took place exactly the same way in the book?

    Basically what he said. Sam points this out to Jon pretty quickly in just the same way in the books. The ‘spoiled’ Jon part is before, while their training and he is feeling picked on while the others see him as a bully, and immediately after before Sam talks to him.
    On a related topic, I love the show’s portrayal of Sam. One of my favorite characters in the show. I can’t wait to see his shining moment.

  499. SJGIM
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Vino Mano:
    Yeah, it made me smile, and wonder if many of the non-readers paid enough attention to it to know later what they are. They will probably be reiterated before becoming important though. I probably wouldn’t have caught it if I didn’t love the Watch so much.

  500. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    I don’t recall if I got that feeling (he was being groomed for command) at that exact point when I was reading the books, but I don’t think so. I think I took it more as Mormont “protecting” the son of his former lord. That, coupled with a father/son relationship because his own son disappointed so much. looking at what I just wrote, it COULD be construed as “being groomed for command” although it wasn’t obvious to me until much later.

    I also don’t recall, did Sam actually make the statement “you’re being groomed for command?” Because if it was that obvious, then I would have gotten it much sooner I think. Or maybe I just missed it?

    at any rate, I really was surprised my sister got it so soon.

  501. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: Nice way of completely ruining any kind of suspense of that whole storyline.
    Yeah, it must be because “the adaptation isn’t directly inline with my supposedly “perfect” version.” eh Winter?

    Yup, that’s correct. I mean, how dare they do things exactly as they are done in the book? They definitely should have consulted you first so that you, in your infinite wisdom, could have given them the TSK-approved way of handling this scene.

    You are so far off the rails now that you are complaining about changes THAT AREN’T EVEN CHANGES! Like I said, a joke.

  502. McKee
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I feel the same way, and plan on using “porndoctrinated” in a sentence at some point today.

    I got a little embarassed and shifty during that scene, and felt the need to lean over and mention to my wife, “…this wasn’t in the books.” I guess I felt the need to wash my hands of it.

    But I have to also say that, while there is certainly strong sexual content, I can’t really call this porn. If they took the exposition OUT of sexposition, and it was just sex, then that would be porn, and it would be (in its own porny way) pleasurable to see. In theory.

    But they didn’t, and its not. But I’m wondering if that isn’t part of the point. Littlefinger’s commentary makes this firmly not-porn, but is something that resembles porn, but is almost completely unlike porn. You would find it arousing if you were a psychopath. It makes me feel bad for the whores, it really does. The next time you’re having sex, imagine Littlefinger sitting in a corner lecturing you about it. See how that makes you feel. Awful, right? I feel doomed just writing that. I’m giving myself the creeps just thinking about it.

    I think the producers are really playing up Littlefinger’s misanthropy. TV Littlefinger has shed his enigmatic and opportunistic graces and descended into psychopathy. For him sex, exists as a means of applying leverage to others, or a way of forcing others to swallow malicious lies. You can tell from this scene that the idea that sex has something to do with love is now completely lost on Littlefinger. He interprets that as only as a fantasy used to addle and distract others.

    I guess what I’m saying is that when we get uncomfortable during this scene, the producers may be secretly high-fiving. They were trying to squick us out, and it worked.

    One thing I never really thought about GRRM and the ASOIAF till now. There is very little happy sex. Its miserable, its sadistic, and it offers ZERO escape from life’s problems. Tyrion may like to think that it does, but look where that gets him.

    At the very least, I congratulate the film makers for making me think more deeply about this than the book did.

    Also, just as an aside, if you read some of Martin’s other works, he is QUITE comfortable with using sexual content as an aperture for dark thoughts and darker deeds.

    Without spoiling, I kind of wonder if there will be much opportunity for this much gratuitious sexposition in later episodes/seasons. Crazy as it may sound, this first season may the cheeriest and sex-filled season of them all. Maybe they are choosing to focus more on sex now because there will be even less opportunity to do so later on. And we’ll be glad for it. And that’s how they want us to feel.

  503. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    MetalgoddessAMB: I also don’t recall, did Sam actually make the statement “you’re being groomed for command?” Because if it was that obvious, then I would have gotten ii much sooner I think. Or maybe I just missed it?

    Yes, it was a speech under an arch, or something, in the same place where Pyp reveals he wasn’t actually sent to the wall for stealing a wheel of cheese, it was because some lordling wanted to see his peen. Then Sam asks him to sing, Pyp walks off in disgust, then Sam spills his ‘you’re being groomed for command!’ theory. In the same way in CSI that they stand around and say “Hmmm, he was poisoned by a special wasp only found in Brazil, which I know about, because I am a specialist who studies Brazilian wasps in addition to being a cop”.

  504. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who thought that the marriage of A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO wasn’t going to include copious amounts of sex scenes was deluding themselves. While the scenes can certainly be uncomfortable to watch in a group setting, I expected nothing less.

  505. Dom
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:
    How can it be really a wonder she guessed about Jon becoming LC? Samwell just flat out said it.It wasnt even a hint – it was a direct obvious reveal.
    Even more so obvious and expected because Jon just lost his expected position of a ranger.

    Wow. You really should re-read the book, you know.

  506. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    hehe, I meant in the book, if he made that exact statement. And I just read it for the fourth time a couple months ago and I still can’t recall. I just know at that exact moment when I was reading it the first time, I didn’t get the command thing…. not until later books. Of course by the time I read it the second time, I already knew this happens, so I might have subconsciously skipped over it while rereading it.

  507. Adrian
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Some of you purists may want to re-read the source material you so passionately refuse to deviate even slightly from.

    A Game of Thrones, Chapter 48, Sam talking to Jon:

    “When I was little, my father used to insist that I attend him in the audience chamber whenever he held court. When he rode to Highgarden to bend his knee to Lord Tyrell, he made me come. Later, though, he started to take Dickon and leave me at home, and he no longer cared whether I sat through his audiences, so long as Dickon was there. He wanted his heir at his side, don’t you see? To watch and listen and learn from all he did. I’ll wager that’s why Lord Mormont requested you, Jon. What else could it be? He wants to groom you for command!”

  508. digtastik
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    I love boobs.

  509. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    ManilaJake,

    I’m a fan of The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Deadwood, The Wire, etc. — the list goes on. I’m even a fan of True Blood (for what it is) and I have very little problem with HBOs approach toward nudity. Even if I were to take your view as fact, however, it would have absolutely nothing to do with arguments for or against the specific use of nudity in this series. Put otherwise, if you could definitively prove that HBO often uses nudity as nothing more than fan service, you’d still have to illustrate how that’s the primary impetus behind the use of nudity in this show. In this case, correlation wouldn’t imply causation (or motivation, as it were). Furthermore, to really have a solid argument, you’d have to illustrate why fan service and narrative meaning (insofar as nudity is concerned) are mutually exclusive. They aren’t, but you might be able to provide a really persuasive argument as to why it didn’t work for you. And that’s fine. But because the scene can be argued for reasonably well, it’s always going to come down to your subjective viewpoint. Nobody is going to really successfully argue that the writers are just meeting some kind of quota. Speculating is fine, I guess, but ultimately it speaks to a larger lack of faith in the show and a deep disappointment in a narrative approach which I don’t see changing anytime soon.

    I’m also not convinced that a robust and vivid sexual attitude isn’t present in the novels. There are many places where the criticism of these scenes might be coming from, and I really think some of them are disingenuous. To each their own, but I’ll always be more interested in reading thoughtful comments on the matter than hyperbolic spew, so I definitely encourage you to keep sharing your criticisms when they apply.

    SJGIM: I am also loving this adaptation, and you very eloquently expressed what I believe is a valid and probably correct interpretation of what Littlefinger’s whoregate scene was meant for. I don’t believe I have yet weighed in on this topic. The problem I believe is with the medium. 1st off, I have to admit that I am a bit of a prude. That being said, if TV was something that people regularly watched alone and unobserved as with reading a book, there would be no problem with such a scene. However if, like me, you enjoy watching shows with others and then discussing them, watching a sex scene with any group of people can be awkward, not matter how little you see (and you’re right, the sounds in the background didn’t help). Particularly one that is around 3 min. long (don’t quote me on this I didn’t check.)
    For some, that are watching this with family, the awkwardness is increased. It wasn’t the scene itself that bothered me, but the uncomfortable atmosphere, however short, it caused in the room. I re-watch the episodes and had no problem with it when watching it on my own (and NOT for that reason, you pervs).

    That’s completely understandable if you’re watching the show in company of people who find sexual depictions of this sort distracting or awkward, but HBO can’t and shouldn’t constrain itself for those people who watch the show with others in imperfect settings. For every group of people watching this show who find themselves uncomfortable because of a scene, there’s another group of people who laugh and cheer and feel completely comfortable. Absolutely no one I know would watch this show and feel ashamed about it. Different people know different people – it’s obvious but worth appreciating. This show doesn’t “belong” to the literalists and it doesn’t “belong” to only those preexisting fans who have a particularly stodgy attitude (or simply conservative attitude) toward on-screen depictions of nudity and sex.

    The show is billed as being for mature audiences only, and there’s a list of pertinent adult situations given before the show airs. It’s not a ‘family friendly’ show and it really shouldn’t be treated as one.

    And I really want to reiterate that regardless of one’s views on the specific content within the show, the fact that we’re more comfortable with violence than sex (as a culture) is definitely worth acknowledging. I’m an American and I’m not going to make this a national thing because I know plenty of Americans who aren’t the direct inheritors of Victorian ideals, but there’s definitely something to this.

    purplejilly: I’m not suddenly uncomfortable with these things, and the sexposition. I’ve been uncomfortable with tham all along. And as the episodes progress, I keep pointing out the new ones, and comment again about how it feels to me (and apparently a lot of other people).
    With your “Move on” command, it feels like you are trying to make people feel ashamed, embarassed or uncomfortable about expressing their opinion here.
    Some people are just as uncomfortable with all the violence, and have stated as much. So listing all the violence and sex that came before doesn’t automatically mean people will now accept any new ass play thrown in their faces with embarassingly loud moaning.

    Just yesterday, the guy who plays Sam posted on Twitter that he watched ep. 7 with his mom and dad, and that during and after Ep. 7, due to ‘certain scenes’ everyone started straight ahead at the TV and made no comments, and his parents didn’t look at him or talk to him since the show ended. When the gratuitous and overdone sex scenes are surprising even other actors in the show in their finished versions, I don’t think the posters who complain here are being petty, moralistic American prudes for commenting that they didn’t like them.

    I didn’t like porn or watch it before Game of Thrones, and I didn’t realize I had to be “porndoctrinated” to watch Game of Thrones and not be offended or annoyed. But it sure does seem to be turning into that. Before the show aired, I told my family and friends about it all the time. Now I don’t promote it anymore. I’m still watching, for now, but it’s getting harder as I get more disappointed.

    I’m not trying to make people feel ashamed or embarrassed about their reactions to the show. I am encouraging people to get over thematic and narrative choices which are explicit priorities of the show-makers and which have been clearly illustrated as recurring elements or devices. There is something to “get over” when this becomes the dominant thread of conversation after every episode by a cadre of people who continually “threaten” to stop watching; my suggestion to them would be to simply stop watching. It’s not in my interests or the interests of almost anyone else for people to be made so uncomfortable or disappointed. If the show brings you misery, if it’s not satisfying, if it impels you toward hatred, malice or self-debasement by attacking people who disagree with you, it’s best to walk away. I’m not saying that everyone who feels this disappointment attacks others, by the by. Some clearly do.

    I can understand why you want to keep watching: you’re deeply invested in the world of these novels. I am, too. I am happy to say that the adaptation is more than meeting my expectations; I’ve had criticisms from the beginning (the first direwolf scene, the Dothraki depictions early on, shoehorning Theon’s motivations + his relationship with Robb, etc.) but these have been outweighed by the sheer amount of enjoyment I get from watching the show. I have and continue to give the show the benefit of the doubt by treating it as a work which must stand on its own two feet. It’s not genuine to argue that the show doesn’t bear any responsibility to the source material–I wouldn’t go that far. But I honestly can’t, not in my right mind, argue that this show suffers for a LACK of fidelity to the source material. Many of its strongest scenes are utterly original and yet the adaptation feels so genuine, so sincere and so painstakingly cared for with respect to the source material (as compared to any other television adaptation of this scale or depth, of which there are few if any) that I just cannot bring myself to antagonize it the way some manage to. The show is a monument to what happens when production teams truly spend an overwhelming amount of time and effort trying to live up to an adaptation’s source–NOT the other way around.

    Regarding John Bradley – it’s clear to me that he’s presenting the situation as a comical one. His folks are older and more conservative he is, and he’s taking a certain amount of relish in the fact that the scenes made them so uncomfortable. Nowhere does he indicate that he is personally shocked or disappointed; he fixates on the reaction of his parents. He even admits (in another tweet) “Yeah, we got a little naughty this week. All justified. Naturally.”

    paulgude makes an excellent post on the topic of how a subsection of preexisting fans approach the show, and I couldn’t agree more.

    paulgude: I’ve noticed a fairly prevalent trend of folks saying they’re judging the show on its own merits, but then faulting it from deviating from the books. It’s often hidden under a veneer of “the way it happened in the book made sense, someone like [CHARACTER X] would never do [ACTION Y] like they did in the show.”

    The fact that they’ve actually just seen [CHARACTER X] do [ACTION Y] doesn’t matter, because they feel (however subconsciously) the TV show doesn’t trump the book reality. They can rationalize that they’re coming to this conclusion differently, of course, like:

    “No, I’m being objective. This scene is out of character because someone as secretive as Littlefinger wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores.”

    The problem with this rationalization is that Littlefinger obviously *isn’t* so secretive that he wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores. He just did. Someone as secretive as BOOK Littlefinger wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores.

    Book Littlefinger is based on GRRM’s text and your imagination. TV Littlefinger is based on the script based on GRRM’s text and Aidan Gillen’s interpretation. Contents and motivation may have shifted during transport.

    This is exactly it.

    purplejilly: The Smiling Knight: How can it be really a wonder she guessed about Jon becoming LC? Samwell just flat out said it. It wasnt even a hint – it was a direct obvious reveal.

    I was more than a little annoyed at that.

    I know you’ve both read the books, so…what gives? You’re now annoyed by something which happens in almost the exact same fashion in the books? Do you want to be happy?

    Actually, that’s more directed at purplejilly – I’m already convinced that The Smiling Knight is a troll of the first order. He might not be one on a conscious level, but he’s what people intended when they called others “trolls” even before the internet helped popularize the word as an interpersonal descriptor. I pretty much agree with WiC’s take on him at this point.

    Winter Is Coming: Anyone who thought that the marriage of A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO wasn’t going to include copious amounts of sex scenes was deluding themselves. While the scenes can certainly be uncomfortable to watch in a group setting, I expected nothing less.

    Amen.

    McKee,

    I’d like to thank you for writing a post about the “sexposition” scene which manages to be thoughtful, introspective, honest about your personal feelings and still doesn’t wind up completely shitting all over the show. This is the kind of criticism presentation I’m willing to support the bottom of.

  510. cat of the canals
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Pretty much. I don’t think I would watch anything on hbo with the parents. With my friends, I’m totally ok with it. Reading the comments from the previous week I was expecting to see, like, a close-up of some fingering action or something. After watching this Sunday, I really don’t get the upheaval.
    I wonder if it’s due to people who usually don’t watch hbo, if it relates to age (people who are still young and living w. their parents and have to watch with them), or what. I’m a little baffled.

  511. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    McKee: I guess what I’m saying is that when we get uncomfortable during this scene, the producers may be secretly high-fiving. They were trying to squick us out, and it worked.

    You know, I never thought about it that way, McKee.. Kudos to you to bringing it into another light. Maybe they MEANT it to be over the top, embarassing, and uncomfortable – this is where that interactive feature on HBOGO could be really useful – a pop-up explaining that during the scene would be helpful!
    (Note – the simulated whore training you are about to see is over the top and under the ass crazy on purpose. We meant it to be this way. No whores were harmed in the faking of this scene. That was, however, a real stag that Tywin tore a new one into. Send your PETA letters to D & D)

    As for later scenes/seasons containing as much, I am now starting to dread the upcoming Tyrion/Shae scenes in the future. “Men call me.. often.. and loud.. and hard.. and wet.. while doing handstands” LOL..

  512. paulgude
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Tysnow,

    Exactly. These variations don’t bother me.

    I admit that for a little while I went through some casting anxiety: Momoa was to attractive for my version of Drogo, Michelle Fairley was too old for my version of Catelyn, Natalia Tena was too young for Osha, etc. Luckily, I got over it before the show started. Once I actually saw them, they were great. A lot of it had to do with the show being a different animal than the books.

    It could be that I had a childhood of Spider-Man being a comic book, Live-Action TV Show, newspaper comic, Saturday Morning Cartoon, etc. all with variations of plot and characterizations. I got the most of the, “That NEVER happened!” out of my system while I was still a kid.

    Repeat with Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Batman, Robin Hood, endless productions of Shakespeare, etc.

    Eventually, I was able to compartmentalize different interpretations pretty easily, even enjoy them. Two versions don’t have to battle it out for superiority. They can be enjoyed on their own merits.

    A tiny, evil part of me hopes D&D eventually write an event that irreconcilably splits the world of the books and the show, if nothing else to demonstrate how minor these current “gates” actually are.

  513. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    MetalgoddessAMB,
    Oh, I thought maybe you might have been interrupted whitle the show was on, or something… LOL…

  514. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    paulgude: A tiny, evil part of me hopes D&D eventually write an event that irreconcilably splits the world of the books and the show, if nothing else to demonstrate how minor these current “gates” actually are.

    That’s a fabulous idea, I hope so too – I think it would make it easier for me all around to separate the two. I have plenty of suggestions for the paradigm shift that does it. Actually, I was hoping the death of Viserys could be the start – don’t kill him, and then deviate further..

  515. paulgude
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    If nothing else, when the warning “Strong Sexual Content” comes up at the very beginning you have time to take precautions.

  516. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: Anyone who thought that the marriage of A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO wasn’t going to include copious amounts of sex scenes was deluding themselves. While the scenes can certainly be uncomfortable to watch in a group setting, I expected nothing less.

    Maybe that’s my problem. I always watched comedies on HBO before, like Curb Your Enthusiasm, and Flight of the Conchords. They had occasional nudity but it was always done in comedic fashion, so it fit. I watched the Wire and the Sopranos too, and I just don’t remember the nudity ‘sticking out’ so much like it does here. Am I having selective memory problems??

  517. paulgude
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I thought maybe leaving out the Blackfish would do it, but so far they’ve been able to stay pretty much on the same path.

  518. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: I know you’ve both read the books, so…what gives? You’re now annoyed by something which happens in almost the exact same fashion in the books? Do you want to be happy?

    I didn’t think it happened so quickly in the book – but then again I might be mis-remembering. I thought it was a slower realization that brought Sam to that thought, I didn’t think he said it right away after the sorting. I think they missed out on a chance for some mystery and drama to develop, a chance for Jon to slowly realize that the LC had actually done him a favor, instead of insulting him. Instead it’s just “What? I’m a Hufflepuff?” to “Oh, I get to be head boy, so it’s okay.” in three minutes. But that’s just another casualty of them having so little time to get so much spelled out.

  519. obsidian
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Of course, for the posters who’ve been here for any length of time , we’re watching knowing it is an adaptation of the book , so even those who are OK with , and expect , a certain amount of deviation are going to be a little dismayed when they feel the writers have strayed a bit too far. There can be no complete separation.

    I frankly don’t care about fur collars, hair colour ( shades of blonde ), eye colour, the occasional bark and the like . I don’t mind a younger Osha, a slightly more sympathetic Cersei , etc..etc..

    I do dislike Littlefinger being made so tranparent. If I didn’t know there was a Book Littlefinger , I’d still feel Show Littlefinger was being portrayed as more of a cardboard villain than was necessary. With the brothel scene, I got the point in about a fifth of the time they devoted to it , and so did my non book reading co-watchers. But the writers had to give the final proof of their low opinion of our intelligence by having LF tell us he wasn’t going to fight them , he was going to fuck them… What a revelation. Do they think we’ve spent our lives under a rock..or that our hairlines begin at our eyebrows ? Do they think we wouldn’t have understood what was going on in the final scene without that piece of information ?…If they don’t think we’re all thick as bricks , the only other explanation is that they were looking for a way to fill a sex quota , and maybe give us an extra dollop to make up for the odd episode that didn’t have much, or maybe balance the ratio of sex to violence.. who knows? What’s for sure is , it feels very contrived , and the “sexposition” ( thanks, Myles) is now a cliche.

    I don’t mean to sound like one of the ranters , here …I love so much about the whole series ,that the good far outweighs the bad…I have some small personal nit picks, like Jaime saying ” I could care less…” that I know many people have no problem with, so I usually don’t mention them , and just tell myself it’s my ” purple eyes “, but if allowed to go on ad infinitum , cliches become a real problem. I know this season is in the can , but I hope there will be some adjustments made for next..

    OT ( sort of ).. but does anyone else find it odd that in Westeros, they don’t know how to make the beast with two backs ?

  520. Lina
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    The Sam comment didn’t bother me one bit. In fact, I felt they embedded it in non-seriousness. Isn’t it right after that when Sam says his best line: “I always wanted to be a wizard” ? I felt they sort of glossed over the poignancy of Sam’s theory.

    Plus, if people suspect that JS will become LC, is that really…bad? It’s not like Sam was going all “Snape kills Dumbledore” on us and telling us what/when/how things happen. He was just speculating, just as I’m sure many others speculated. If new viewers are smart enough to figure out the Lannister kids, and get to R+L=J, they’re definitely smart enough to know that Jon won’t be fetching cups and tending fires forever. ;)

    Although…my dad did ask me if “keeping a fire burning” had some strange double-meaning. Given the show’s track record I guess it wouldn’t be THAT much of a stretch. :D

  521. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: I’m not suddenly uncomfortable with these things, and the sexposition.I’ve been uncomfortable with tham all along.And as the episodes progress, I keep pointing out the new ones, and comment again about how it feels to me (and apparently a lot of other people).
    With your “Move on” command, it feels like you are trying to make people feel ashamed, embarassed or uncomfortable about expressing their opinion here.
    Some people are just as uncomfortable with all the violence, and have stated as much.So listing all the violence and sex that came before doesn’t automatically mean people will now accept any new ass play thrown in their faces with embarassingly loud moaning.

    Just yesterday, the guy who plays Sam posted on Twitter that he watched ep. 7 with his mom and dad,and that during and after Ep. 7, due to ‘certain scenes’ everyone started straight ahead at the TV and made no comments, and his parents didn’t look at him or talk to him since the show ended.When the gratuitous and overdone sex scenes are surprising even other actors in the show in their finished versions, I don’t think the posters who complain here are being petty, moralistic American prudes for commenting that they didn’t like them.

    I didn’t like porn or watch it before Game of Thrones, and I didn’t realize I had to be “porndoctrinated” to watch Game of Thrones and not be offended or annoyed. But it sure does seem to be turning into that.Before the show aired, I told my family and friends about it all the time.Now I don’t promote it anymore.I’m still watching, for now, but it’s getting harder as I get more disappointed.

    I agree with Purplejilly. David n’Dan can make their changes from Book to screen all they want. Will I like changes and dislike changes or cuts of course. Im a big fan of the books, but I’ll still overall love the show. But Im not to particular on the increasing amount untastefully done sex scenes in the show. I know this is HBO and all. But maybe if they pulled it back and limit time to them to include more from the books no matter how D n D translate the scenes. Far more viewers they would get and not lose.
    It started off tasteful in the first episode and has been getting increasingly annoying, and its taking up far more time that can be used to tell story. Im just tired of the sex-exposition trick. I have stopped advertising this show to family and friends that enjoy a great drama tv. Because I know if they saw it they would highly reconsider watching it ever again specially after episode 7.

    Trust me if HBO would add more story and drama and less to lengthened sexposition scenes it would probably garner better ratings.

  522. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Question to those who have stopped recommending the show to friends/family because of the sex: do you or did you recommend the books to friends/family? If so, why? There is just as much (if not more) graphic sex in there as there is in the show. Not trying to be an ass, just genuinely curious.

  523. Theinsider
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Lancel_Lannister,

    Do not get your hopes. I do not think HBO showing the sex scene between Lancel and Cersei

  524. digtastik
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    So Dany’s rape in the first episode was tasteful? Two siblings having sex is tasteful? Those were two of the sex acts I recall(not counting Tyrion’s whores – those were definitely tasty).

    also, I love boobs.

    also also, I think everyone involved has done a great job on the show.

    also x 3 It took me 5+ viewings of the pilot to stop nitpicking. I got over it.

  525. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    I guess you can edit how you imagine something in your own head, ‘see only what you want to see’, but when it’s right there in front of you, the only option you have is to turn away.

    I certainly didn’t hear slurping sounds in my head when reading the book.

    I have to say..the one time I imagined something in my head from the book Sansa’s wedding night I’m still haunted by… the image of a naked Tyrion sitting on the end of the bed with a hard-on.

    yeah, naked dwarves are not something I want to carry around in my head, but it’s there, and I can’t shake it. shivers.

    oh, that was an answer to Winter’s query

  526. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: That’s a fabulous idea, I hope so too – I think it would make it easier for me all around to separate the two. I have plenty of suggestions for the paradigm shift that does it. Actually, I was hoping the death of Viserys could be the start – don’t kill him, and then deviate further..

    Sounds like the part of you rooting for that isn’t so tiny or evil. ;)

    I vote bigtime “no” on that, I want all major deaths to happen at their proper time. I’m fine with the minor deviation, elimination/combination of characters etc., but I’m really enjoying how close they’re keeping this to the “real thing.”

    Not to mention that, like has been discussed before, a supposedly minor change could completely alter the outcome down the road, and that I’m definitely not on board with.

    On a related note, does anyone think the fact that Theon is being so heavily emphasized might mean D&D have some insight from George as to a more crucial role for Theon down the road? Unless they just love Alfie Allen and wanted to give him more screen time.

  527. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    Question to those who have stopped recommending the show to friends/family because of the sex: do you or did you recommend the books to friends/family? If so, why? There is just as much (if not more) graphic sex in there as there is in the show. Not trying to be an ass, just genuinely curious.

    Its far easier for someone to read about it then VISUALLY see it. Reading it is private and in the head. But visually if your around others its can be anywhere from awkward to embarrassing, unless you and any amount of your friends and family are very liberal about this aspect of life.
    Im no prude the nudity hasnt bothered me. But the length and in your face they have taken makes its really akward to watch around friends and even some family members.

    Dany’s sex scene was handled tastefully. BUT IT WAS SHOCKING! Tastefully in that it wasnt like the Scene with Ros/Armeca while Littlefinger coached them and spilled his inner feelings.

    When I say tastefully, I mean not in your face. Not full blown softcore porn. Things were covered, fabric and clothes placed in well done places, angles and perspective of the shot good.

    Now if HBO were to shoot the wedding night scene with Dany/Drogo exactly as depicted with close in shots or far shots…it would be as or far more jarring to the viewer as with teh Ros/Armeca scene. I think what HBO did with Dany/Drogo’s first time worked well even if they cut out the part where she says “yes” after being seduced.

    I just don’t think any big fan of the books can argue that seeing no more Ros and far less sexposition scenes would be bad if it gives way for more stuff from the book even if done in cool expositions like Tywin/Jaime for example.

  528. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,
    I did not recommend the books to family or friends (allthough my sister has already read the books), but I did recommend the show to family, friends and co-workers before it started, because I thought it was going to be a really cool show, and something very different, very unlike everything else on TV these days. I honestly didn’t expect as much nudity and graphic sex or ‘unpleasant’ sex as what we ended up on the screen with. I know there is some graphic depictions in the book, but I thought they would ‘class it up’ a little for TV, and not be using it at (what I would call) the ‘teenage titillation level’.

    I guess I am surprised because *my* experience with HBO and nudity/sex scenes had NOT been that graphic before. As mentioned, I watched their comedy shows, like Curb Your Enthusiasm, and Flight of the Conchords, which only rarely showed nudity, and then, it was done in a comically ‘tasteh’ way.

    I watched one episode of Deadwood, which apparently was the Al Swearengen sexposition scene with his young hooker, and was completely turned off and did not watch any more Deadwood. But I didn’t think we’d be getting Deadwood in Westeros!

    For some reason, I was expecting action and adventure and some nudity, along the lines of Firefly, with lots of swear words thrown in, because people love to use the F word on HBO.

    Instead, there is a lot more nudity than I expected, and it’s not just nudity in general that is the problem, it’s the way it is shot, and the way they choose to use the sex in the scenes. It’s hard to explain, but it just seems jarring, over the top, and gratuitous, the way it was done so far. I work in a professional environment, and actually would not discuss a show like this at my workplace.

  529. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,
    I’m still waiting to see who is the character they kill off early, the one that is supposed to die in Book Three that is going to die in I guess one of the next three episodes?

  530. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    And for the record. I thought they could have cut the Ros/Armeca/Littlefinger scene shorter to give Robb some character development. As someone stated before. It will be needed for the last episode.

  531. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: Maybe that’s my problem. I always watched comedies on HBO before, like Curb Your Enthusiasm, and Flight of the Conchords. They had occasional nudity but it was always done in comedic fashion, so it fit. I watched the Wire and the Sopranos too, and I just don’t remember the nudity ‘sticking out’ so much like it does here. Am I having selective memory problems??

    I didn’t watch Sopranos much, but nudity and sex was at a minimum in The Wire, and was only used to advance the storyline (which I know some people have argued is the case here, but I’m not convinced). I wish they’d gone more that direction in this adaptation, but I think they’re almost self-consciously trying to overcome the chaste fantasy stereotype.

    That said I’m not really bothered by the added scenes. I actually thought the Littlefinger one was better than some others, I liked the correlation between his speech and the ho-training. Still not sure how necessary the scene was at all, but so it goes, at least it was funny (and I agree with what somebody said (FaB?) that it was intended to be somewhat ironic and silly, not arousing).

  532. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: I didn’t watch Sopranos much, but nudity and sex was at a minimum in The Wire, and was only used to advance the storyline (which I know some people have argued is the case here, but I’m not convinced). I wish they’d gone more that direction in this adaptation, but I think they’re almost self-consciously trying to overcome the chaste fantasy stereotype.

    That said I’m not really bothered by the added scenes. I actually thought the Littlefinger one was better than some others, I liked the correlation between his speech and the ho-training. Still not sure how necessary the scene was at all, but so it goes, at least it was funny (and I agree with what somebody said (FaB?) that it was intended to be somewhat ironic and silly, not arousing).

    I didn’t like how that Littlefinger/Ros scene revealed to much about Petyr Baelish’s motives and inside his head. I greatly enjoyed not knowing so much about him. It made reading the first 4 books AWESOME. They’ve kinda killed some of the surprise about Littlefinger for viewers. The shock wont be as huge if we get to season 3 and 4.

    And even though I enjoyed the Varys/Littlefinger exchange. I also think it revealed a little to much about Littlefinger.

  533. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Also you know what else drew me in? All the previews, the chacracter portraits, and the behind the scenes things we got ahead of time made the show SEEEM to be much tamer than it actually was. I was expecting more along the lines of the previews, which never showed any graphic sex or violence.

  534. digtastik
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    It’s interesting to note that the non-reader thread regarding this episode doesn’t as big a, uh, bone to pick in regard to the sex scene. I also find it interesting that all of the non-readers that I’ve gotten interested in the show(or others in my social circles) have NOT(sorry gang) complained about it. Is it just that the readers are more likely to take offense with the sex because it’s not what was imagined from the text? I’d be interested in see the statistic of the percentage of readers/non-readers that are up in arms over the amount of skin in the show.

  535. Maxwell James
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I wouldn’t say I’ve stopped recommending it so much as I’ve become a bit more wary about recommending it, but my short answer would be: I don’t think that premise is true. My impression is that the sex scenes in the books proportionally take up less of the reader’s time than the sex scenes in the show do of the viewer’s. Most of the sex scenes are quite brief, and while they do tend to be somewhat more explicit (as book sex scenes usually are), readers also have more control in terms of how they can choose to read them versus viewers of a show.

    That said, my real problem with a few of the sex scenes in the show (most of them have been fine) has been that they reflect the writers’ lack of confidence in their own ability to interest the audience in the show’s backstory, so they awkwardly graft a sex scene on top. I don’t buy NousWanderer’s argument that this is a deliberate theme, because (as I said on the previous thread about this) the camera tells you what’s important. If it were, I think they would take more pains to show the men from the womens’ perspective. Instead the camera mostly lingers on the women as eye candy.

    I just think it’s an obvious, and rather boring, marketing gimmick, and I view it cynically as such. I’m also skeptical that it’s an effective marketing gimmick, because I think the many passionate fans of the series will love it no matter how much or how little sex it has. I for instance still love the show, but I think it deserves some criticism from this perspective.

    Finally, I’ll add that minutes are a scare resource in this TV show, and every “sexposition” scene (and indeed, every scene) needs to be evaluated in terms of what we didn’t get to see because we watched it instead. When you get right down to it, I just didn’t think the LF + trainees scene was a very interesting scene; there were many other places where we could have spent some or all of that time.

  536. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    digtastik:
    It’s interesting to note that the non-reader thread regardingthis episode doesn’t as big a, uh, bone to pick in regard to the sex scene.I also find it interesting that all of the non-readers that I’ve gotten interested in the show(or others in my social circles) have complained about it.Is it just that the readers are more likely to take offense with the sex because it’s not what was imagined from the text?I’d be interested in see the statistic of the percentage of readers/non-readers that are up in arms over the amount of skin in the show.

    I think its more that its taking away from the chance to show scenes from the book however they are adapted to the screen. Because we as readers KNOW there is a plethora of great material there that non readers are missing out on.

  537. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson:
    The Smiling Knight,
    So now you’re complaining about Sam revealing his Lord Commander theory to Jon because it’s too obvious? Even though it took place exactly the same way in the book?

    Youre right. It was almost the same in the books.

    There it didnt stand out so much because it was a part of the whole situation developing on. In the Tv show the scene ends on that note so it comes off as much more obvious.

    My reaction was a bit out of line in this case, true.

    Still, i was reacting to MetalGodess description of how her sister got it easily and insulting post by Winter.

    Winter Is Coming,
    You accuse me of thinking i have infinite wisdom once more and ill start calling you “Weener is coming” or worse.

    NousWanderer,
    Although you like to pretend otherwise because that present an easy opportunity to portray yourself and your reasoning as superior there is no issue of “having sex or not having sex” in the show.

    The issue is its execution, not whether it is there or not.

    The Littlefinger scene is bad primarily because it is revealing his true motivations too soon, contrary to what his whole character should be (in the books and tv show) and lessens the surprise of his treason at the episode finale, by extension.
    Secondarily because it is done through overblown and unnecessary cheap sexual scene.
    Which is a gimmick employed several times already and thus it seems cheaper and cheaper and worse and worse each and every time it is used.

    Otherwise personally wise – i know – youre just a verbose asshole with a sense of entitlement and illusions of grandeur which is crudely visible in the way you set your arguments by first laying on ad hominems and strawman arguments about supposed personalities of those whom you speak against each and every time.

    You are so convinced of your own infallibility that you dont shirk from accusing other of behaving in certain ways without realizing it, subconsciously of all things even if you know fuck all about that person.

    Which is really ironic but i guess you wont be able to see it in that light.

    Which is a very common occurrence on teh internets. So youre nothing but one more in the long line of similar assholes.

    McKee,
    Now, that theory is something i could agree with. Or at least hope it is true.
    I kind of.. dont think so, myself but at least it makes some sense as a theory.

    Im not sure i would characterize sexual relations in the books as overtly negative.
    At least not by intention of the writer.
    I just think that some of them get highlighted more in that sense by circumstances.

    I think its fairly obvious that the tv show has equaled or already surpassed the number of sexual encounters in all of the books so far.

    paulgude,

    If i have insulted you personally with my previous comment i do apologize.
    It was merely a metaphor about rationalizing too much, especially when using other people over rationalizations as an argument.

    You do have a point to a degree but adaptation does men that it is supposed to follow the source material so there must be some kind of limit to how far you veer of it in terms of final output of quality.

    However, the devil is in the details or execution – so you cannot really cover it all with a blanket statement.

  538. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James:
    Winter Is Coming,

    I wouldn’t say I’ve stopped recommending it so much as I’ve become a bit more wary about recommending it, but my short answer would be: I don’t think that premise is true. My impression is that the sex scenes in the books proportionally take up less of the reader’s time than the sex scenes in the show do of the viewer’s. Most of the sex scenes are quite brief, and while they do tend to be somewhat more explicit (as book sex scenes usually are), readers also have more control in terms of how they can choose to read them versus viewers of a show.

    That said, my real problem with a few of the sex scenes in the show (most of them have been fine) has been the “sexposition” aspect of them – that it reflects the writers’ lack of confidence in their own ability to interest the audience in the show’s backstory, so they awkwardly graft a sex scene on top. I don’t buy NousWanderer’s argument that this is a deliberate theme, because (as I said on the previous thread about this) the camera tells you what’s important. If it were, I think they would take more pains to show the men from the womens’ perspective. Instead the camera mostly lingers on the women as eye candy.

    I just think it’s an obvious, and rather boring, marketing gimmick, and I view it cynically as such. I’m also skeptical that it’s an effective marketing gimmick, because I think the many passionate fans of the series will love it no matter how much or how little sex it has. I for instance still love the show, but I think it deserves some criticism from this perspective.

    I agree. Ive said it before. A good story doesn’t need to have sex to draw in viewers and high ratings, but in context of Georges story it does and it works, because its plotline. But in how HBO is going about it, some of them havent worked so well to help plot. The good story does it on its own.

  539. digtastik
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart,

    While I agree that there are things that I might rather see from the books(and yes there are many) at times, I also understand that the show is not the book. The producers are doing what they do and I am just along for the ride. I am planning on a reread prior to Dance and when that happens, I’ll enjoy the books again.

  540. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart: I didn’t like how that Littlefinger/Ros scene revealed to much about Petyr Baelish’s motives and inside his head. I greatly enjoyed not knowing so much about him. It made reading the first 4 books AWESOME. They’ve kinda killed some of the surprise about Littlefinger for viewers. The shock wont be as huge if we get to season 3 and 4.And even though I enjoyed the Varys/Littlefinger exchange. I also think it revealed a little to much about Littlefinger.

    What exactly did it reveal about him? Everybody talks about how he’s laying it bare, but is he really? He likes to fuck people, big deal. He claims to carry a torch for Catelyn, that’s no secret. When asked what by Roz what he really wants he doesn’t give a straight answer, he says “everything”. All he revealed is that he’s a manipulative bastard, and anyone paying attention could tell that already, and I thought the insinuation that he’d seduced Ned Stark by making him believe Stark was seducing HIM to the cause of righteousness was awesome.

    But he didn’t really tell us jack about his ultimate motives. Like any good liar, he revealed just enough to make you think he was being entirely truthful, while telling you nothing that would actually incriminate him. Which is pretty much what he and Varys do all the time.

  541. fuelpagan
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight: There it didnt stand out so much because it was a part of the whole situation developing on. In the Tv show the scene ends on that note so it comes off as much more obvious.

    Hmm. I thought it was obvious when I first read the books. But given all the twists in the novel was cautious about it coming true.

    The Smiling Knight: Winter Is Coming,
    You accuse me of thinking i have infinite wisdom once more and ill start calling you “Weener is coming” or worse.

    Is this your way of proving you don’t have infinite wisdom by acting like a 3 year old?

  542. Cersei's Cunt
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    I’m one of the ones who thought the sexposition scene was awkward, plodding and tacky, but reflecting on it, it’s not that much of a departure from the books which feature their fair share of awkward and tacky sex scenes. Fat pink masts and Myrish Swamps are memorable in all the wrong ways. For all of Martin’s strengths, his sex-writing-fu is weak as hell

    The difference is that reading about the adventures of Tyrion’s veiny purple cock take up a couple of paragraphs in a thick book, while the poorly conceived Ros-Littlefinger scene took up a decent part of an hour-long TV show and killed the momentum.

    This is one area where I wish the show would depart more from the books.

    (And yes, I’m well aware of the irony of making appeals to good taste with my current username)

  543. paulgude
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    Thanks, and I wasn’t offended. Given the high bar you’ve raised when expressing displeasure, that was downright tame. :)

  544. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: What exactly did it reveal about him? Everybody talks about how he’s laying it bare, but is he really? He likes to fuck people, big deal. He claims to carry a torch for Catelyn, that’s no secret. When asked what by Roz what he really wants he doesn’t give a straight answer, he says “everything”. All he revealed is that he’s a manipulative bastard, and anyone paying attention could tell that already, and I thought the insinuation that he’d seduced Ned Stark by making him believe Stark was seducing HIM to the cause of righteousness was awesome.

    But he didn’t really tell us jack about his ultimate motives. Like any good liar, he revealed just enough to make you think he was being entirely truthful, while telling you nothing that would actually incriminate him. Which is pretty much what he and Varys do all the time.

    *Nod* But can you maybe see that what they have shown so far of Littlefinger could bring him to be a suspect behind the murder of Jon Arryn dagger and attempted murder of Bran, setting things into motion. Based on how seductive, cunning he is depicted already. But readers know the truth. I guess thats the best way I could summ it up. Littlefingers character is so complex I could write a thesis about his reasons and motives for what he does in the books. There is so many interweaving things to it.

  545. Maxwell James
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Cersei’s Cunt,

    LOL!

    For what it’s worth, Martin’s writing is often so completely un-sexy that I usually assume it’s by design (although plenty of comments on his blog indicate otherwise). His feast scenes are way hotter than his sex scenes.

  546. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: What exactly did it reveal about him? Everybody talks about how he’s laying it bare, but is he really? He likes to fuck people, big deal. He claims to carry a torch for Catelyn, that’s no secret. When asked what by Roz what he really wants he doesn’t give a straight answer, he says “everything”. All he revealed is that he’s a manipulative bastard, and anyone paying attention could tell that already, and I thought the insinuation that he’d seduced Ned Stark by making him believe Stark was seducing HIM to the cause of righteousness was awesome.

    But he didn’t really tell us jack about his ultimate motives. Like any good liar, he revealed just enough to make you think he was being entirely truthful, while telling you nothing that would actually incriminate him. Which is pretty much what he and Varys do all the time.

    This, this, a thousand times this. My thoughts exactly. Littlefinger is my favorite character in the books and I think his on-screen portrayal has been perfect, so far.

    But hey, that’s just my opinion.

  547. Cersei's Cunt
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Too true, no-one does food porn like Martin. Maybe next season they can promote Ros to cook and replace all the brothel scenes with feast scenes.

  548. McKee
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Good question!

    I’d like to add that I have no problem with a show that in some way “invites” me to examine my own feelings of discomfort or embarrassment. That’s part of the quality!

    Let’s say I recommend the books to my mother. Now, she reads romance novels, and you know those are graphic as hell. Have no doubts about standing by the novels, yet, and this is the important bit, no plans on reading over her shoulder, either.

    Not only will be reading the stories at different times and in different places, but we each visualize the stories in our heads, utterly alone. My imagination is territory upon which no one will intrude, no one CAN intrude, even if I wanted them to. We are all alone inside of our heads, I’ve gotten very used to that, and I’d like to keep it that way.

    Here comes the show. I’ll recommend it heartily because it is based on the finest literature I know. You should watch it, its excellent television. But not with me. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: I do not tolerate sexposition in my personal life. Not enjoyable to me.

    What happens if we’re watching the brothel training scene and she suddenly asks me, “When’s the last time uou’ve been to the dentist, McKee? I’m your mother, so I feel I’ve a right to ask. You don’t want your teeth to fall out and live on oatmeal the rest of your life, do you? You don’t want YOUR kids to have a father with no teeth, do you? I’m sorry you’re getting upset, I just want what’s best for you. Now, don’t get defensive, I’m just asking a simple question…”

    AAAAAAHHH! All of a sudden the whore’s are eating each other and I’m having to defend myself from a verbal assault at the same time! Its Theon and Ros all over again! Littlefinger’s in the corner, he says I’m doing it all wrong, Wrong, WRONG!

    whew.

    I can deal with my mother.

    I can deal with sexposition on screen.

    And if I play my cards right, the two will never intersect.

  549. greenie90
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    Theinsider,

    I’m not quite sure what you mean. On the web westeros.org there is a person who told me that if there is a scene of seduction Cersei and Lancel.

    I have also spoken with someone who has worked as an extra in the series, and the guy assured me that there is a short scene of sex. And chances are you have been cut in editing.

  550. dtb
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    I would just like to say, that when something is graphically described with words, it is not really going to have as much shock value as when you see it on screen. And so in many ways if you are taking something from the book, and visually depicting it exactly the way it was described, you are really “amping up” the effect of this. At least, it is this way for me. I feel like I can recommend the book to a lot more of my friends than I can the tv show. I should mention that I still absolutely love the show.Also, I do think that having gratuitous sex added is better than showing nothing at all, as that would really have made a terrible adaption as well.

    Edit: some other people already made this point it appears!

  551. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Another possibility to consider re: sex scenes is the dreaded “notes.” The suits at HBO are probably some of the most perspicacious working in television but they’ve proved in the past to be less than subtle in the “notes” (feedback on each script) they’ve sent to showrunners. Notoriously they were reported on True Blood to tell the showrunner not to let the heroine (a 25-year-old virgin at the start of the series who moves beyond her first love to several delectable supernatural gentlemen, each of whom helps her on her road to maturity and self realization) “sleep around too much.” Partially as a result, she continues to mope ludicrously after her abusing, mendacious, and manipulative first guy, and we’re going into S4 for chrissakes.
    They may have gone in the other direction on GOT. The grassy knoll theorist in me wonders if the HBO suits said to D&D, “Hey, this is so talk-heavy, can’t we spice it up a little?” and D&D said, “Hey, we’re liking Ros big-time anyway, let’s try this.” Could have worked very well behind a diaphanous curtain, for example, particularly Ros’s “Want to join us?” (which can be read either as her attempting to manipulate her new boss in the very way he is recommending or yet another promulgation of the fallacy that sex workers get into sex work because they enjoy sex). I agree that tamping down the sound or shortening the scene would have helped and also that Robb is being badly short-changed. This could just be a misstep, which the great D&D are perfectly entitled to make in the face of a tremendously commendable and award-worthy first season. It’s like looking at a small flake of damage on the face of a minor masterpiece painting. Some say “Get over it,” others say, “What a shame.”

  552. DavosDrivesTheBoat
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    I’m a huge fan of the books and a purist at heart…I have issues with some of the decisions (the gratuitous nudity, the Stark sisters’ casting, the almost complete disregard of the Stark’s relationship with their furry counterparts, to name a few).

    That being said, I feel that the tone of the show is near perfect. I think it captures the feel of Westeros as brilliantly written by our R.R. Looking forward to many more years of ASOIAF on HBO…

  553. Bro
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    NousWanderer, this post is so full of win that the other posts surrounding it have also become full of win just by being in close proximity to it.

    Mine’s 12 comments away from NousWanderer’s post, I don’t suppose it counts?! :L

  554. Bro
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Vino Mano:
    Did anyone notice when Sam says “one horn blast for ranger returning…two for wildlings and three…” Jon just cuts him off…

    I noticed that too. I wonder if it was deliberate, as in letting the newbies forget about the White Walkers. So when they show up in season 2 newbies will be like WTF in a good way…..

  555. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,
    They are wearing me down, man.

    fuelpagan,
    If its working than – yes.

    Wolfheart: *Nod* But can you maybe see that what they have shown so far of Littlefinger could bring him to be a suspect behind the murder of Jon Arryn dagger and attempted murder of Bran, setting things into motion. Based on how seductive, cunning he is depicted already. But readers know the truth. I guess thats the best way I could summ it up. Littlefingers character is so complex I could write a thesis about his reasons and motives for what he does in the books. There is so many interweaving things to it.

    They didnt reveal something specific Littlefinger has done or might have done.
    thats not the point at all.
    Thats only a superficial mystery about him. Trying to outguess his immediate tactical moves is only the first layer of fun.

    His much deeper secret is whom does he work for really, what does he want and why.
    After all he seems to be merely a capable coin master thats doing rather well financially and politically in the court. He rose to the highest step he could in that position.

    So why exactly does he do what he does?

    This scene completely reveals all of it.
    He is not working for anyone – he is working for himself. As far as i remember the readers dont get that until Feast for Crows.
    Why? We get that too. Because of events around Catelyn.
    The one “he chose” as he tells Eddard the first time he sees him.

    Only his ultimate goal remains half unspoiled because “everything” is a pretty broad term so you can argue he didnt specifically reveal whether he wants the iron Throne itself or the whole world or what. But it still presents his goal in a much clearer light then the books have so far.

    If we go by the books it is still unclear whether he wants to grab a good piece of Seven kingdoms for himself, Iron Throne itself or he just wants to spread destruction and chaos which is the most likely one out of the three so far.

    And he reveals all of that to Alayne. With no lesbians or whores or anyone else around.
    That makes sense for multitude of reasons and that makes him a great character.

    Someone who spills his darkest secrets to random whores would not last a day in the game, on the level he is supposedly playing it at.
    It goes even against the tv show itself if you remember his and Varys talk about “seeing each other.”
    Littlefinger supposedly even knew about Illyrio`s visit, even if he couldnt have and didnt in the books.
    Varys would have had his monologue in printed and illustrated version in triplicate before Baelish even finished talking.

  556. obsidian
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t stopped reccommending either the books or the show to people, but the reccommendation comes with a warning..expect sex..even unpleasant sex and expect violence.. What would ( I hope it doesn’t come to this ) make me stop is if the writing becomes too cliched , ham-fisted, or obviously pandering to adolescent tastes. And they’re beginning to make me a bit nervous. All the PR about this being adult fantasy won’t wash if they go much further along this path. I was hoping they meant adult in the sense of intelligent ( which could include some sex and violence ) and not just adult in the sense of X-rated. They’re treading a little close to the line.

    The difference between the book and the show is,as others have mentioned, on the page.. if it’s more than a person is comfortable with ( sex or violence ).. they can gloss over a couple of paragraphs and continue on with the story. They can find their own level of acceptability. With the show, sure they can briefly look away in most cases , but if it goes on and on for 3-4 minutes accompanied by loud sound effects , they can’t ignore it. ( The sound is particularly obnoxious. I thought the first example with Tyrion was pretty icky, but because they made it a joke , albeit a pretty coarse one, I thought that would be it. I had no idea I was witnessing the birth of a trend.)

    So I’m more with purplejilly… and the question I want to ask is , would the people who are defending the whoretraining scene have been turned off the series if it had been shorter with less or softer moaning, or if it had not been included? Would they not have understood or been able to enjoy the LF character without his early declaration of motive ?

    Is it really better to be telegraphing Theon’s character and future actions to this degree ?

    I retiterate, it’s not sex per se or violence per se that’s making me nervous. It’s a general heavy handedness where they feel something has to be explained..and a sense of them filling quotas.

  557. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Lol I can’t believe some of these arguments are still going on. I go away for a couple days and when I come back its the same things being rehashed over and over. a few more thoughts on the infamous sex scenes… first and foremost the sex in the books isn’t tame by any stretch of the imagination. nor is it a rarity. Half of the machinations that go on in KL happen in or around brothels and you know what brothels have all over the place? Naked people doing naked things. it shouldn’t surprise people then that sex is shown and is a regular part of things. Also LF uses his brothels to gather and hold information about the lords and ladies that come to use his services. His training of Ros and the unnamed one makes a lot of sense. They have to seem totally into it while still completely being there mentally so they can gather said info. you can’t listen when you’re faking loud orgasms nor will people open up to you when its obvious that you’re just faking it. Like he said they know its not real but if you’re good enough they’ll convince themselves that they’ve managed to win you over and get to you thereby making them more open to telling secrets that might be useful. He isn’t just training them he’s letting us in on his own tactics. Ned knows not to trust him but LF is the master of giving just enough and holding back just enough to let ned convince himself that petyr is on his side. LF is the great poser. like a photagrapher he knows how and where he wants people to be and is fantastic at getting them into the positions he needs them to be in. We see that here and throughout the books Sansa and lysa anyone? the kettleblacks? Beyond all that LF was amazing in that scene. I’m a grown man and as much as I love a good lesbian scene it was totally all about LF in that scene. The man is good enough to steal a scene from two extremely hot naked women getting it on. that alone should be applauded. I watch this with my wife and even she wasn’t phased at all by all the lady business. The sex is completely secondary and if its all you can see happening in the scene I think it says a lot more about you than it does about D&D and HBO

  558. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Also if you’ve read the books you should know better than to watch the show with your parents because thats gonna be uncomfortable no matter what. But being embarrassed to see nudity or sex while watching with friends? Sure if you’re 12. Are you scared to go up to the blackboard because someone might see your hardon as well? “One of the benefits of not being puritanical about sex is not being embarrassed afterward. You should look into it” – Inara Serra, Firefly

  559. obsidian
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    I think you’re missing the point. Most people are not complaining about nudity ,or sex ..but gratuitousness , in terms of the length of time expended on the scene ( time that might have been more effectively spent elsewhere ), the volume of the moaning ( distracting ) and the monologue itself. People don’t need to have it explained yet again, and never did. It’s very easy to analyse. The analogy has already been made by D&D with a sledge hammer. You’d have to be extremely dense not to get it . Some feel it might have been much more effective to let LF have a slow reveal ,as he did in the books , which would render this scene completely unnecessary , unless they were simply looking to include a large dose of girl on girl action.( Which they’ll have ample opportunity to include later. Though they wouldn’t have LF there as a surrogate to command ” play with her ass.” )

  560. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    Both of these posts made me smile.

  561. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    McKee: I can deal with my mother.

    I can deal with sexposition on screen.

    And if I play my cards right, the two will never intersect.

    Your post made me laugh, though I have to say that anyone using the “inevitability of watching this show with their parents” as a legitimate argument against the explicitness of the sex scenes isn’t going to be very persuasive.

    “I CAN’T HELP IT. I HAVE TO WATCH THE SHOW WITH MOM AND DAD. HBO DOESN’T UNDERSTAND. IT’S AWKWARD. IT’S AWFUL. PLAY WITH HER ASS? PLAY WITH MY MORTIFIED SOUL.”

    I know you’re not saying this. It’s just…I feel like some people actually want to say this.

    That’s obviously not something HBO needs to be concerned about.

  562. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,

    I would have to disagree about the so called slow reveal. LF let everyone know very early on not to trust him. When he tells ned in the books its also letting us know that his motives are suspect. all his actions are self serving and easily seen to be as such. Its clear early on that the two underground players of the game (LF and Varys) are both after different things. LF is out for himself and to achieve his own ends throughout where Varys serves the realm. these are pointed out time and again through their own speech and as well as subtext. Also and again. Go back and read the sex scenes in the books. They are nothing if not gratuitous. To “gloss over” these parts makes no sense to me. If you pick and choose what to read in the books you miss things that are integral to the development of the characters and story arcs involved. I mean if the “whoregate” scene (lol) bothers you then you’ll never make it through tyrion and shae’s relationship. they spend most of it naked and fucking. Not being sweet. not tenderly carressing but straight up flat back fucking. thats pretty gratuitous. Speaking of tyrion and shae’s relationship.. it takes much the same route that we see LF training his girls to take. Tyrion knows that shae is a whore and isn’t in love with him but because of the way she acts he’s able to keep convincing himself that he may be wrong that maybe she does feel things for him. that maybe he did reach something inside of her that noone else has. She has and uses all the skills that LF is teaching his ladies to use. the illusion of innocence mixed with the ability to be anything but.

    NousWanderer,

    Always a pleasure mate :D

  563. GaR
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I want to say it. Somewhat. My mum’s a big fan of the show and the books. This shit is getting awkward.

  564. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    OMG thats fantastic! right on the money. I mean what his lessons really come down to is him saying this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn7oEYe4ePc ;D
    well… that and http://gyazo.com/4c01ec3b1e80afe1410596f8201d0fd1.png

  565. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Just tryin to keep things lighthearted folks :) no offense meant

  566. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    I was reading these comments with my grandmother when you posted that, Jess Snow.

    You’re out of line.

  567. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    LOL….wait…seriously?

  568. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    I humbly beg grandmother wanderer’s pardon and promise to be a good snow from now on

  569. NousWanderer
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    She’s disappointed that your video was so tame.

  570. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Dirty ol’ girl hehe

  571. Jess Snow
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Alright time to allow my soul to be crushed for a few hours and go to work. Play nice folks. watch out for TSK you never know when he’ll pop up to do some soul crushing of his own.

  572. obsidian
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    Winter had asked something along the lines of : how the people who said they had stopped reccommending the show to most people because the “sexposition” was becoming uncomfortable squared that with still touting the books ..and what was different. (very broad paraphrase, hope that’s right ).

    I , along with others, answered that on the page, it’s much easier for a person to ignore the bits they don’t find palatable. ( my reduction of a number of answers ).
    I didn’t say I had glossed over anything ( although I have ,e.g. descriptions of Biter’s handiwork ), but just generally, that’s what people do.

    I’ve read the books a number of times and still feel LF is much more subtly written in the books. You may suspect him of plenty, but you can’t be sure of exactly what he’s up to until much later on ( If ,in fact, you can even be entirely sure by the end of AFFC ). I feel it would be more suspenseful and more dramatic to keep it that way, so I was greatly dissappointed in this one scene , particularly ,in that regard. So to me ,the girl sex, here ,was not only unnecessary, it was written in to facilitate making a dramatic choice I disagree with. ( If it’s not the other way around , which would be even worse.) …Cersei and Taena or Dany and one of her handmaidens will be another matter entirely.

    So I don’t anticipate having any problem with Shae and Tyrion , unless I feel they make a writing decision that changes their characters, or something like that. I do hope they will have fallen out of love with the sound effects by season 2.

  573. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    If it’s any consolation, even the newbies get that Littlefinger didn’t actually reveal anything of importance. Here’s a quote I found over at the Television without Pity unspoiled thread, and this person isn’t the only one to express something like this:

    (Said in the voice of Littlefinger): “I’ll now deliver half of my character background, while also being the audiobook of the Seven Kingdoms Kama Sutra, simultaneously…while still remaining primarily inscrutable.”

  574. Theinsider
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    greenie90: Theinsider, I’m not quite sure what you mean. On the web westeros.org there is a person who told me that if there is a scene of seduction Cersei and Lancel.I have also spoken with someone who has worked as an extra in the series, and the guy assured me that there is a short scene of sex. And chances are you have been cut in editing.

    My God! Who said it? I can not see that in three chapters, the series shows the flirtations of Lancel. Be careful, because people lie.

  575. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Jess Snow: Alright time to allow my soul to be crushed for a few hours and go to work. Play nice folks. watch out for TSK you never know when he’ll pop up to do some soul crushing of his own.

    Pfft, you give him way too much credit. ;)

  576. Eric Niewohner
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    I have to admit it is pretty interesting to come back and read the posts daily for many reasons. Many of you have some great insights and I appreciate the fact that some of you really craft your posts so carefully and take such time. NousWanderer keep doing what you do because your posts are not only clearly articulated but you also very eloquently ask the trolls to step up and prove their points and they cannot, since they are subjective judgements they are making based on their interpretation of the books and the only interpretation they accept is theirs and theirs alone.

    What we have to remember is that the producers are making a show that can encompass an audience beyond the people who have read the series so they are going to take some shortcuts, make some things more obvious and have some exposition. Littlefinger owns a whorehouse and when he is there guess what people there is going to be sex going on. It was pretty clear that they used the sex scene to symbolize the point he was trying to make and the show has to help out the people who have not read the book and therefore don’t have the backstory and all the little details a book can provide to help the viewer understand L.F. character better or any character for that matter.

    As far as the sex and violence goes in relation to recommending the show or watching it with friends or family the best way to deal with that is be upfront about it. My mom and dad are 74 and they expressed an interest in watching the show with me so the first Sunday it was on I went over to their house and before the show started I told them that there would be some pretty graphic sex and violence and that if they didn’t feel they could handle it then this is probably not the show for them. So when the show started and the graphic sex and violence took place I was totally comfortable watching it with them because I had told them about it. Guess what 7 episodes in and they are still watching it and although my mom feels some of the sex scenes are difficult to watch she appreciates the show overall and enjoys watching it.

    Winter is Coming made a great point earlier asking people if they recommended the books to people, knowing the level of graphic sex and violence in them and that was a very astute question. For those of you who read the books how is it even possible that your are surprised or shocked by the graphic sex and violence especially considering the show was going to be on HBO? It boggles the mind that some of you who have read the book are more shocked and outraged by the sex and violence than non-readers, I mean really did you read the censored version of Game of Thrones or are you so uncomforatable with your own sexuality that seeing it on screen makes you uncomfortable? It is really hypocritical to say you have read the books and love the series then blast the show for having graphic sex and violence when the books have them galore and from a violence perspective they have been pretty tame compared to the book.

    As far as recommending the books since I am the store manager of a Barnes & Noble I have been recommending this series without reservation since the books first came out and have hand sold over 1,000 copies to other fans of the genre and even some non-fantasy, yes I have kept track because I love this series almost more than any other. I don’t recommend to people under 18 and I always let the people know that this is hardcore epic fantasy so if you are uncomfortable with sex or vilolence these are not the books for you. The best thing about working in a bookstore is recommending a book and then have the customer come back in and ask for the rest of the series and this happens really consistently when I recommend Game of Thrones. Also you might want to know that since the series started due to the excellence of the series and all the interenet hits the series is getting the entire series is selling like hotcakes across our whole chain.

    I also find it really silly and ignorant that anybody found the portrayal of the Dothraki as racist or were offended that Drogo talked about raping women. Again readers of the book who are complaining about this stuff if you have any grasp of history at all you realize that the Dothraki are based on the Mongol culture and therefore Martin’s portayal of them is done with that history in mind, also for those people who thought the portrayal of the Dothraki was racist was this a complaint you had about the books as well? As far as Drogo’s comment about raping women goes for time immemorial whenever a town or city was defeated the leaders would allow their warriors to go nuts and rape and pillage the town. The reason for this is that most of the common footsoldiers were poorly paid and lived in harsh conditions so when a city was defeated the leaders allowed their warriors to go crazy for awhile so they could keep them in line until the next battle. This was not something that was specific to any one culture either this was across the board from Asia, to Egypt, to Europe and yes to America this was something that the leaders just looked away while the town was pillaged. This is historical fact not something that is made up and really up until the 20th century was just the norm and even today there are still some places where horrible things happen during war to civilians. So to complain about this stuff and say it is racist or Drogo’s comments are out of line you just don’t understand the history of warfare on this planet. Do I condone these actions, absolutely not, but I understand that I cannot apply my 21st century morality on a show that is based on the morality of medieval historical times and when you do it just shows your ignorance of history and again for the readers of this series to again complain about this stuff in the show what book were you reading. When the Dothraki take a city they plunder it, kill the men, rape the women and take the surviving women and children as slaves, much like the Mongols did.

    I could go on but this post is plenty long already, so enjoy this show because it is special and unique and I want to see a season for every book not just two.

  577. dtb
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Just because some people offer criticisms of the show does not make them trolls. Some may be in the mindset of “I love this show! Nothing that it could do would ever make me criticize it!”. Others of us are in the mindset ” I love this show! But I also enjoy discussions on what could be done to improve it”. It seems like some criticisms are being dismissed by the first group only because they are criticisms.

  578. Eric Niewohner
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    Sir you are a troll of the highest order and it is absolutely hilarious that someone who thinks they are so smart is so dense. Time and again many people are telling you that your rampant negativity is out of line and yet you blithely go your merry way blasting the show. Seriously if I disliked a show or had as many complaints about a show as you I would stop watching it. The fact that you continue to watch it and then continue to complain about it says something about your character and not in a good way.

    You are also very rude as you are a guest on this thread and to respond to the moderator or host of this thread the way you do is just flat out wrong. If you want to take on me or other guests that is your right, but W.I.C. is gracious enough and obviously works really hard to provide this wonderful website and the ability to talk about it. At the very least you should respect that and respect W.I.C. and temper your smart ass comments in that regard. Look at it this way if you were in someone else’s house and the host or owner told you that you are being rude or out of line and it should stop, 99.9% of any poll would say stop being rude or leave the house if you cannot control yourself. But because you can hide behind the annonimity of the interenet I guess you feel that you can continue to be rude to the host. It is really sad that you continue to act in a such a way and I hope my comments help you at the very least offer an apology to W.I.C. and at least maintain a level of politeness when dealing with the moderator.

  579. Jeda
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight,

    Not wanting to get into the whole argument, but I don’t entirely agree with Littlefinger revealing his intentions in that scene. That’s actually only a perception if you read the book in fact, it’s knowing what’s going to happen that can lead to think that, I know it did to me but then I had second thoughts. At this point, I don’t think he has the intention yet of betraying Ned, even in the series, he only makes that decision I think when it’s clear Ned will not go along with his plan and that’s a few scenes later. Why do I think that? Well, when he says “since I can’t fight them, I’ll f___ them” he cannot mean the Starks explicitly because Ned’s brother is already dead. What he means by ‘them’ is all who play with these rules, and it can just as easily be Cersei and Varys as they’ve already been shown as competitors in ep3/4. That’s how my wife took it and she’s a non-reader. As for the brothel, it’s true LF is shown more as a pimp than in the book, but I think HOB pulls it off by explaining that for LF it’s a way to find money, because that’s his job. In his own word from a previous episode ‘Brothels make better investments than ships’. So to me, given you have only a few minutes for a scene on TV, using the brothel is a clever way to mix all that, and yes the sex quota too. And just like Drogo might have appeared brutish with Danny in ep1 and people complained about, it was obvious to me it was just for lack of screen time to show otherwise but I knew they had time to show the real character, and we didn’t wait long, ep2 did show his true character towards Danny. I’m sure it’s the same for LF, they won’t insist on his pimp role for long. Anyway, just my take on it…

  580. Knurk
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Hah, my dad made me read the books. So I’m sure as hell going to make him look at this series and I sure as hell hope he’s going to feel awkward about those sex-scenes because I sure as hell felt awkward when I opened my parent’s bedroom door a couple of years ago.

    .
    .
    .

    Nuff said.

  581. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Eric Niewohner, I appreciate the support, but I wouldn’t waste your time worrying about TSK. He’s proven that he is incapable of anything but disdain for those who disagree with him.

  582. Arya's Cat
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Apologizing in advance for the length of this post — trying to catch up.

    NousWanderer: I’ve actually become convinced that the biggest problem in that scene is the sound editing; if the whore practice was muted just a bit, people would be so much calmer.

    This may be true — I noticed the more I had to strain to hear what Petyr was saying, the more annoyed I got.

    paulgude: The problem with this rationalization is that Littlefinger obviously *isn’t* so secretive that he wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores. He just did. Someone as secretive as BOOK Littlefinger wouldn’t discuss his plans with whores.

    All I have is anecdotal evidence to refute this, but here it is. Hubby, who hasn’t read the series, thought it was odd Littlefinger would be so open with a couple of whores he just met. The primary reason was the earlier scene in which he and Varys had their Master Spy pissing contest — a scene in which Petyr was made aware that Varys has somehow gotten potentially damaging knowledge of what goes on in his brothels.

    purplejilly: I watched one episode of Deadwood, which apparently was the Al Swearengen sexposition scene with his young hooker, and was completely turned off and did not watch any more Deadwood. But I didn’t think we’d be getting Deadwood in Westeros!

    I actually think this might be unfair to Deadwood. If that’s the only thing you saw of the whole show, I certainly understand why you were turned off by it. But there was a lot prior to that point in the series that made that scene work for me (the first time, anyway — subsequent scenes staged this way just made me feel bad for Dolly). The scene did make me uncomfortable, but it also made sense in context. I do think there’s a difference between depicting characters exploiting other characters, and a show itself exploiting characters/actors.

    Also, “porndoctrination”! Love that word!

    Maxwell James,

    +1 to everything you said.

    I also thought that the brothel scene was meant to mean something, but didn’t work so well in that regard. I think others have mentioned possible intent being lost in part due to the fact there have been other scenes that came off as exposition with sex tacked on. This also makes me a little worried about future Tyrion/Shae scenes. In that particular case, there really is a purpose — not just hypothetical — and I hope that doesn’t get lost because of everything else.

    And on a more positive note, how happy was I to see Charles Dance? I’ve been picturing him as Tywin ever since I saw him in “Bleak House.” Woohoo! And he didn’t disappoint! I was totally oblivious to Deerskingate.

    Serious props to Momoa as well. They didn’t give him as much to do as I would’ve liked in the series, but he sure did sell what they did give him. He was wonderful in that last scene, but my favorite bits are the smaller moments where he and Clarke convince me of Dany and Drogo’s bond.

  583. Eric Niewohner
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    No problem as I admire your site and the community you have created. You are due many thanks for doing such a fine job on this website. At work I have told all of my GOT buddies to check this site out and they all have been pleased with what they find. So thanks so much for doing what you do and I know I am not alone in my appreciation for your wonderful efforts.

  584. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson:
    The Smiling Knight,

    If it’s any consolation, even the newbies get that Littlefinger didn’t actually reveal anything of importance.

    If nothing of importance was delivered during that scene, then why did we even need it at all?

    as far as I’m concerned, it was just a waste of a precious 4 minutes, where something of importance could have been delivered.

    I didn’t learn anything I didn’t already know, and neither did my non-reader sister.

    think of it this way: If it never happened…we wouldn’t even miss it.

    But we miss a lot of other shit don’t we?

  585. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    The Smiling Knight:

    They didnt reveal something specific Littlefinger has done or might have done.
    thats not the point at all.
    Thats only a superficial mystery about him. Trying to outguess his immediate tactical moves is only the first layer of fun.

    His much deeper secret is whom does he work for really, what does he want and why.
    After all he seems to be merely a capable coin master thats doing rather well financially and politically in the court. He rose to the highest step he could in that position.

    So why exactly does he do what he does?

    This scene completely reveals all of it.
    He is not working for anyone – he is working for himself. As far as i remember the readers dont get that until Feast for Crows.
    Why? We get that too. Because of events around Catelyn.
    The one “he chose” as he tells Eddard the first time he sees him.

    Only his ultimate goal remains half unspoiled because “everything” is a pretty broad term so you can argue he didnt specifically reveal whether he wants the iron Throne itself or the whole world or what. But it still presents his goal in a much clearer light then the books have so far.

    If we go by the books it is still unclear whether he wants to grab a good piece of Seven kingdoms for himself, Iron Throne itself or he just wants to spread destruction and chaos which is the most likely one out of the three so far.

    And he reveals all of that to Alayne. With no lesbians or whores or anyone else around.
    That makes sense for multitude of reasons and that makes him a great character.

    Someone who spills his darkest secrets to random whores would not last a day in the game, on the level he is supposedly playing it at.

    It goes even against the tv show itself if you remember his and Varys talk about “seeing each other.”

    Littlefinger supposedly even knew about Illyrio`s visit, even if he couldnt have and didnt in the books.
    Varys would have had his monologue in printed and illustrated version in triplicate before Baelish even finished talking.

    ha ha, I love the last sentence.

    And here I think you are making a good point.

    See, when you speak respectively and present clear, precise and intelligent arguments and leave out all the snarky stuff, you might be able to finally get through to people.

    I have on occasion agreed with a few points you were trying to make.

    But sometimes how you deliver it is off-putting. and then the back and forth name calling and fighting ensues…and it’s not only tiresome, but childish even. (and I’m not talking just about you, but your detractors also). and then it goes on and on and on and on…

    I hope you’re not thinking I’m trying to start something with you…because I’m not, just saying that the one time you say something in a civil tone that makes a lot of sense …well a lot of people might not have read it because at this point they are predisposed to just skip over anything you might have to say…

  586. Jeda
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know about we “wouldn’t miss it”. The puzzled look on my wife’s face was priceless :-) It said “What on earth is going on here?” “What are you making me watch my dear husband?” Eh eh, so funny. Ok, HBO is getting borderline on that one, but I’m glad we readers can see new scenes that are not in the book, otherwise we wouldn’t have add the Varys vs LF scene. “One shivers at the thought…” with Conleth Hill actually shivering, such a nice touch. Granted, not all extra scenes are that good.

  587. McKee
    Posted June 1, 2011 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Jeda,

    Full props for Conleth Hill.

    “Such a dutiful lad, to make sure his Grace did not lack for refreshment…”

  588. Jeda
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    McKee,

    … or “And you know, we were so close” ;-)
    Varys didn’t have that much room in the book, but Conleth Hill gives him such a presence. He’s one of this character that I think is even better in the series than in the book.

  589. Rob Nix
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    I watched the entire Sopranos series recently for the first time and the sex scenes were never as gratuitous as what’s seen on GoT.

  590. The Smiling Knight
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Eric Niewohner,
    Dude, right now im feeling like im a guest at the Twins.

    Eric Niewohner:
    The Smiling Knight,

    You are also very rude as you are a guest on this thread and to respond to the moderator or host of this thread the way you do is just flat out wrong. If you want to take on me or other guests that is your right, but W.I.C. is gracious enough and obviously works really hard to provide this wonderful website and the ability to talk about it. At the very least you should respect that and respect W.I.C. and temper your smart ass comments in that regard. Look at it this way if you were in someone else’s house and the host or owner told you that you are being rude or out of line and it should stop, 99.9% of any poll would say stop being rude or leave the house if you cannot control yourself.

    Im not in someones house. Im on a public site. At least thats what it looks like.
    If in fact this isnt the case and this is another Westeros.org feel free to try and bann me. See how well that goes.

    Someones credits on building and maintaining it do not come into this argument at all.

    And i dont do this… thing… you speak of.
    If someone is insulting to me, moderator, admin or holly Dalai lama – they can expect the same in return.
    (also, that dalai lama may seem all nice but the sucker packs a mean left hook, let me tell ya)

    Jeda:

    Not wanting to get into the whole argument, but I don’t entirely agree with Littlefinger revealing his intentions in that scene. That’s actually only a perception if you read the book in fact, it’s knowing what’s going to happen that can lead to think that, I know it did to me but then I had second thoughts. At this point, I don’t think he has the intention yet of betraying Ned, even in the series, he only makes that decision I think when it’s clear Ned will not go along with his plan and that’s a few scenes later. Why do I think that? Well, when he says “since I can’t fight them, I’ll f___ them” he cannot mean the Starks explicitly because Ned’s brother is already dead. What he means by ‘them’ is all who play with these rules, and it can just as easily be Cersei and Varys as they’ve already been shown as competitors in ep3/4. That’s how my wife took it and she’s a non-reader.

    Thats my point. It doesnt reveal he will explicitly go after Eddard but after anyone – including Eddard.
    The scene reveals he is an ally to none – against everyone.

    When he says “i will fuck them all” that means Starks too.
    Surely, if this scene wasnt in the show, Littlefingers betrayal in the last scene would have been more surprising, for example.

    As i already said, the point is not about revealing his immediate tactical moves, but exposing his most secret motivations much too soon and for no good reason i can discern.
    In a very cheap and crude manner, by a crass gimmick that they have used several times already.

    Jeda:
    As for the brothel, it’s true LF is shown more as a pimp than in the book, but I think HOB pulls it off by explaining that for LF it’s a way to find money, because that’s his job.

    I never said anything about that.
    Its true that brothels are just one of his business ventures in the books but i can see why the tv show decided to put an angle on that, from production costs and “we need them naked flesh and sex scenes” point of view.

    Steven Swanson:
    The Smiling Knight,
    If it’s any consolation, even the newbies get that Littlefinger didn’t actually reveal anything of importance. Here’s a quote I found over at the Television without Pity unspoiled thread, and this person isn’t the only one to express something like this:

    (Said in the voice of Littlefinger): “I’ll now deliver half of my character background, while also being the audiobook of the Seven Kingdoms Kama Sutra, simultaneously…while still remaining primarily inscrutable.”

    They dont even know what they lost because they never got the chance to wander about his motivations, reasons or possible alliances.
    And because they keep mixing the importance of immediate moves and overall motivations and intentions.

    MetalgoddessAMB: ha ha, I love the last sentence.
    /
    I hope you’re not thinking I’m trying to start something with you…because I’m not, just saying that the one time you say something in a civil tone that makes a lot of sense …well a lot of people might not have read it because at this point they are predisposed to just skip over anything you might have to say…

    No, its alright. I have no delusions about how rude some of my posts may seem to other people.

    besides, :jumps on a couch: you can always start something with me, babe :D

  591. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    MetalgoddessAMB: If nothing of importance was delivered during that scene, then why did we even need it at all?

    as far as I’m concerned, it was just a waste of a precious 4 minutes, where something of importance could have been delivered.

    I didn’t learn anything I didn’t already know, and neither did my non-reader sister.

    think of it this way: If it never happened…we wouldn’t even miss it.

    But we miss a lot of other shit don’t we?

    I basically agree with you, in my ideal version of this show I’d definitely pull this scene out in favor of something else.

    And on the other hand, I enjoyed this scene as a creative and funny interpretation of and performance by a certain character that the writers obviously love. And given it does exist, I prefer to focus on that more than what should be there in its place. I’m indifferent to the whoresex part in itself, although I guess it was a little loud.

  592. Jeda
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Funny interpretation indeed. It might even be a contender for one of the most memorable quote of season 1: “Play with her a___ !”. Ok, not the most politically correct, certainly not sophisticated, definetely not in the book… but without doubt memorable! Not sure that’s how GRRM intended to have this show remembered though ;-) Still, there are so many subtle dialogues in that show, that to me the writers can easily afford that kind of fun. Let’s not forget the professionalism of these two actresses though, it must have been a difficult scene to do.

  593. Jess Snow
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who looks forward to coming home and reading/taking part in discussions on this site almost as much as the show on sundays? We may not always agree on things but what community does? how boring it would be if there wasn’t honest discourse amongst friends. WIC over these past two years you’ve given us something that we didn’t have before which is a place to come together and talk and laugh and argue. As a geek and thrones fanboy it isn’t always easy to find others like myself and on the worst days it can feel like we may be alone amongst the lions but when I come here I actually feel like I’m a part of something big and wonderful. Something that doesn’t happen often for most people…and thats an amazing thing. So thank you. The words don’t really cover it but its all I got…alright well theres my openly emotional truthiness for a while. :) Time for the dulcet tones of Mr. Dotrice to wash over me and make all well again

  594. Jeda
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    Jess Snow,

    Hey Jess, speaking about GoT fix, have you ever listened to that guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H9y-T2AW7Q
    I usually listen to him on Tuesday morning while I work, his name is Larry (I think Winter has put him as one of the regular reviewers) and his enthusiasm is addictive. The reason really why I listen to him is because as non-reader in his 20min/episode or so, he’s really living the episodes like I lived the book and it’s fun to listen to. Cheers

  595. Jess Snow
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    Jeda,

    Hey thats awesome mate thanks! I’ll be listening to this tomorrow for sure. What a pal :)

  596. Shock Me
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    I decided to bite the bullet and subscribe to HBO. Last night I watched all of Season 1 so far (Episodes 1-7) via HBO On Demand. I figured paying for a month of HBO was cheaper than a boxed set of DVDs.

    Although I enjoyed Jason Momoa’s speech, like scenes of both the Dothraki Horde and the masses of King’s Landing, I found the HBO version of the Seven Kingdoms I was quite underwhelmed by the size of the crowds. Westeros seems mostly depopulated and the war hasn’t even started

    When reading the books, I imagined a group the size of the Saruman’s Uruk-Hai army in Peter Jackson’s the Two Towers. In the book I imagined the Mongols. In the HBO version I got way cool Klingon-Cheyenne Dog Soldiers with some awesome whips.

    Although I looked for it, I never saw Ghost barking. Littlefinger’s monologue was far better as I read it on these forums than in the show. The scene was overlong and could have been more tightly edited and blocked. As far as the sex, well frankly the women looked like part of the furniture. Which was a bit sad given that Ros herself is quite an engaging personality on-screen with her red hair is quite striking.

    I even had to go to great lengths to stop from questioning why there were no farm lands in close prximity to Winterfell. I decided the location was chosen strategically for the hot springs to allow them survive the long dark winters. Lots of greenhouses off screen and all that.

    But, you know what? The dire wolves showed up on cue to bite the right people. Nymeria got her pound of Joffrey flesh, and Summer trailed behind Bran and defended him from the assassin when he was helpless in his bed.

    What was missing was Bran’s sparring victory over Joffrey that lead to Joff sending the assassin that every other Lannister in Westeros was blamed for. Perhaps that will be a flashback or one of Bran’s dreams?

    Although I would have cast the show differently, I absolutely love this adaptation of GRRM’s work. Cersei is sinister, beguiling, and manipulative. Dany is at once vulnerable and commanding. Ned and Robert are amazing. Even Robert and Cersei together are amazing.

    Love all the younger cast as well even Sansa who was also at times impolite to her Septa in the book as well. As I recall, she was at that moment compared to Arya. Joff was very well done as well as Sam. I can’t wait to see season two (I might even leave my subscription in force between seasons).

    No matter how excellent the acting is, and despite the attractions of the sex and violence, I still don’t see the show lasting past season two. Perhaps I am wrong. I hope I am. I would love to see both the books and the TV show to its dire, desolate, and windblown conclusion.

    Season 3? I can haz?

  597. blackear
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    I was talking with my non reader friend and he brought up a good point. How does Ned make the connection that Joff and all the rest are Jaime’s? I’ve read the books and may have overlooked this explanation in the show because I already knew but I can’t even remember how he comes to this conclusion. Are Cersei and Jaime the only two blonds in the seven kingdoms? The two are not shown together that much in the show and no one has said anything like “those two have always been too close.” Am I missing something?

  598. greenie90
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Theinsider: My God! Who said it? I can not see that in three chapters, the series shows the flirtations of Lancel. Be careful, because people lie.

    I can not say names because people can get angry. You have some reason, I do not think there is a sex scene, but there may be a scene of seduction.

  599. Lina
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    Steven Swanson,
    I’m still waiting to see who is the character they kill off early, the one that is supposed to die in Book Three that is going to die in I guess one of the next three episodes?

    I know he doesn’t die in ASOS, but did you see Marillion anywhere in the Eyrie after the fight on the high road? I don’t remember seeing him after the fight and thought it was odd.

    obsidian:
    Jess Snow,

    I think you’re missing the point. Most people are not complaining about nudity ,or sex ..but gratuitousness , in terms of the length of time expended on the scene ( time that might have been more effectively spent elsewhere ), the volume of the moaning ( distracting ) and the monologue itself.People don’t need to have it explained yet again, and never did. It’s very easy to analyse. The analogy has already been made by D&D with a sledge hammer. You’d have to be extremely dense not to get it .

    This somewhat sums up my feelings on the whore scene. I cut out the part that obsidian wrote about the “slow reveal,” because I’m not sure that writing Littlefinger into the TV script works the same way as writing him into the book. In the book, he’s not a POV, so we never get inside his head or even see him unless he comes across one of our POV characters. We don’t know what goes on in his brothels or what he does in his spare time (IF ONLY, right?!). But in the show, he’s a second-string main character, and the screenwriters need to consider this. They need to set him up as having his own personality and they need to hint at his motives; otherwise, no one would give a shit about him being around. I think Littlefinger has been done really well on screen – a testament to the production team AND Gillen, who is just hands-down fantastic.

    That said, I still have a problem with Whoregate. I usually watch Game of Thrones with my family (dad and 20-year-old sister, sometimes mom), just as I’ve watched several other HBO series with my family. Yeah, sex scenes might be initially slightly awkward, but it’s not really a big deal. As my sister always reminds us, “We’re all mature adults.” Plus, we all know what to expect from HBO. And I knew what to expect going into Game of Thrones because I had read ASOIAF. So that’s not the problem for me. All that said, Memorial Day weekend sort of threw everyone out of wack, so I ended up watching Ep. 7 alone during the 11PM showing. So I watched Whoregate unfold all by myself, with not even the possibility of awkwardness. Though come to think of it, my dog did get up and slink out of the room with a sort of embarrassed look on her face…just kidding! :D

    My problem with the scene doesn’t exist externally of the production. It’s not an issue of my feelings or my environment. The problem for me is that the scene was gratuitous. First, it was far too long. Sometimes when I’m watching GoT, I feel likes scenes fly by and I’ve barely had a chance to digest what’s going on. Total opposite for Whoregate. I kept expecting it to end but it never did, and just dragged and dragged. Those minutes could have been used elsewhere for a more effective purpose (um, who is Robb Stark?). Littlefinger could have still been instructing his whores, but we could have seen only half of the class. Second, the sound was overdone. The editing should have been more leveled, with Littlefinger’s voice having more dominance over the soundwaves. Let the whores moan all they want, but keep them as background noise, as ambient sound. Third, going with what I quoted from obsidian above, it seems like the analogy was uncharacteristically upfront. By that, I mean, it’s VERY EXPLICIT (not in the sexual way, but in the right-up-in-your-face way). Littlefinger teaches his whores how to fuck while he talks about how he fucks people over! And he’s telling them to make the clients believe it, even though they know otherwise, just as he makes people believe he’s on their side even though he’s TOLD them otherwise! (Ned :(). Now we know HBO doesn’t think we’re dumb (Maesters’ Path), and I don’t want to say this was a “stupid” analogy, but it was very…blatant. Maybe it was designed to really drive home Littlefinger’s mega-manipulations for new viewers who haven’t read the series. Or maybe I’m being haughty about our intellect as ASOIAF readers. Either is possible. Finally, for my fourth point, please see any of my above posts regarding Ros. Not going to make you all listen to that old chestnut again!

  600. Knurk
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Lina: I know he doesn’t die in ASOS, but did you see Marillion anywhere in the Eyrie after the fight on the high road? I don’t remember seeing him after the fight and thought it was odd.

    Bryan Cogman came here on the boards and confirmed he was limping along in the background after the fight.

  601. 1_RedCat
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    just a thought I wanted to write down:
    I rewatched the episode I found that the scene, where drogo is making his oath is like the mirror to danys heart eating. It was exactly the same thing, the same intense keeping eye-contact, the proud watcher (first drogo watching dany, now dany watching drogo) and just the whole expression, bodylanguage of the persone who is proving their devotion for the other person (first dany, now drogo).
    Perhaps everyone saw this right away, Im just kinda slow, dont know XD
    just wanted to share, because I think they did a great job there. the scenes are like two sides of the same coin. Esspecially how similar the scene is in the matching expression of dany and drogo. Loved how they did this : )

  602. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    What was missing was Bran’s sparring victory over Joffrey that lead to Joff sending the assassin that every other Lannister in Westeros was blamed for. Perhaps that will be a flashback or one of Bran’s dreams?

    Bran’s sparring victory was over Tommen, not Joff. Joffrey just talked smack with Robb in that scene.

  603. purplejilly
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    obsidian: So I’m more with purplejilly… and the question I want to ask is , would the people who are defending the whoretraining scene have been turned off the series if it had been shorter with less or softer moaning, or if it had not been included? Would they not have understood or been able to enjoy the LF character without his early declaration of motive ?

    Right – and maybe as a another way to try and explain my feelings about the sex and the way it’s portrayed so far, was that I was expecting something like “American Beauty”, all erotic scenes and rose petals, and instead felt like I got “American Pie”, with Jason Biggs eyeing up an apple pie on LF’s couch…

  604. Lina
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Knurk: Bryan Cogman came here on the boards and confirmed he was limping along in the background after the fight.

    Thank you! I wasn’t around for a few days so I must have missed that. Thanks again :).

  605. Lampster65
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    Before this episode, I commented that I didn’t understand the whole Roz character inclusion. I’m still not sure where its going and what it really adds.
    There are a lot of scenes in the book that have been skipped with “time” being the assumed reason, so to take this much time on a scene that was NOT in the book AND seemed gratuitous and distracting, I just don’t get it.
    Like with Lord of the Rings, whenever they strayed from the cannon, the movies seemed weaker. Martin’s story writing is the star here. Stick to that and we’ll all be happier.

  606. Andy Tabelz Tabeling
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    maxlongstreet,

    he put a knife up to ned’s throat in the book too…..

  607. Lampster65
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    blackear: How does Ned make the connection that Joff and all the rest are Jaime’s?

    Its a good question, because we (the readers AND the viewers) know early on that Jaime is the father, when Ned figures out Robert ISN’T it isn’t clear how he makes the connection. I’m sure there have been rumors around The Court since they were separated as kids, and he’s the only blonde man she’s close to. Anyone have a better ‘smoking gun’ for us?

  608. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Lampster65,

    I think it’s just an educated guess, confirmed after he asks “your brother…or your lover?” I don’t think he was certain about the answer until after that.

  609. Arya's Cat
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    blackear,

    Lampster65,

    Ned thinks:
    - murder of Jon Arryn and attempts on Bran’s life = Lannisters
    - attempts on Bran thought to be because he saw something he shouldn’t have (as stated by CSI Cat on show)
    - Arryn’s research showing blonde kids as anomaly
    - Jamie with Cersei at Winterfell the day Bran fell, while everyone else went hunting

    Yes, an educated guess. Though I always did find it funny that instead of thinking, “They’re Lannisters… but incest?” Ned seems to go straight for, “They’re Lannisters… it’s probably incest.”

  610. Wolfheart
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    blackear:
    I was talking with my non reader friend and he brought up a good point. How does Ned make the connection that Joff and all the rest are Jaime’s? I’ve read the books and may have overlooked this explanation in the show because I already knew but I can’t even remember how he comes to this conclusion. Are Cersei and Jaime the only two blonds in the seven kingdoms? The two are not shown together that much in the show and no one has said anything like “those two have always been too close.” Am I missing something?

    It’s all the physically and facial attributes. All of Cersei’s children look alike and have golden blonde hair. All the bastards that Jon Arryn and Ned found were black of hair and looked like Robert. The clue that Jon Arryn said before death “The Seed is strong” as in the fathers seed. It is thus further compounded by the Book of Lineages. Then Sansa gives NED a lightbulb moment talking about “give Joff children with golden hair”.

    If they were Robert’s kids. They would have most likely ended up with Black hair and Roberts features as his seed was strong as the Baratheon features are strong.

  611. gurgi
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: Yup, that’s correct. I mean, how dare they do things exactly as they are done in the book? They definitely should have consulted you first so that you, in your infinite wisdom, could have given them the TSK-approved way of handling this scene.

    You are so far off the rails now that you are complaining about changes THAT AREN’T EVEN CHANGES! Like I said, a joke.

    I think you are too invested in the show and too close to the HBO production now. You obviously love the inside info and the props of being an early blogging fan boy. However you are far from objective. But that’s cool. But try to refrain from making it personal to other posters.

    You know people who are critics are like people who go to restaurants. If the food is bad some people return it, ask for something else, or refuse to pay. But lots of people dont like confrontation and quietly just make a mental note to not comeback in the future.

    So I think you would be better served if you thought of the complaints as just a tip of an iceberg. There are more people having issues but that just don’t speak up.

    I have stopped suggesting to friends to go check out the show. I know I am not the only one. I have read others on this thread itself who have made this known.

    I still will watch because I loved the books and want to see how this whole thing ends. In a great success or a middling show that finds itself off the air in fairly short order. I still of course hope for a great success.

    But one thing I am sure of. It wont stay on the air till the conclusion of the books. If we get a third season I would be pleasantly surprised. If we get a fourth season I will be absolutely shocked.

  612. Arya's Cat
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Not defending the whore-training scene, but I don’t think romanticizing sex squares with the rest of GoT. On the other hand, I don’t want “American Pie”, either. Maybe a happy middle?

  613. obsidian
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Arya’s Cat,

    I believe in the books there are a number of references to how close C & J are , even for twins, and perhaps the show could have made more use of this. But anyone might ,by putting themselves in Ned’s shoes , think, they’re so-o-o close ,and what with the kingsguard protecting the King and his family day and night ,who would have had access to the Queen ? It would have been much more difficult for her to have a fling than even another noble’s wife , with all those eyes around.

    I think he was making an educated guess , but maybe a more educated one than the show makes really clear. Still, I don’t mind having to figure out what leads a character to act a certain way ..;)

  614. gurgi
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    Anyone who thought that the marriage of A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO wasn’t going to include copious amounts of sex scenes was deluding themselves. While the scenes can certainly be uncomfortable to watch in a group setting, I expected nothing less.

    Its just that I was expecting good hot steamy interesting sex. Instead we are getting a lot of idiotic doggie action and mega speeches during. It has come across as amateurish. They made sex boring and tacky.

    It could be better. A lot better.

    It would be better if they kept their actors dialogue much shorter during the sex scenes.

  615. Lina
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Lampster65: Its a good question, because we (the readers AND the viewers) know early on that Jaime is the father, when Ned figures out Robert ISN’T it isn’t clear how he makes the connection. I’m sure there have been rumors around The Court since they were separated as kids, and he’s the only blonde man she’s close to. Anyone have a better ‘smoking gun’ for us?

    Inside Lord Ned’s head (see what I did there? Where’s LNH?!): Lannister sketchiness + Jon Arryn’s death + Lysa’s letter + “the seed is strong” + Bran’s “fall” + Cat’s sleuthing + LF saying the dagger was Tyrion’s + Gendry + Barra + Cersei’s children’s blondness + the Baratheon genealogy + Sansa’s naive observation + Cersei’s obvious disgust with Robert = thought that these kids might not be Robert’s!

    I don’t know if any of them are the smoking gun; if anything, I’d say the book. But Ned is smart enough to guess it out and then once Cersei doesn’t deny it, he knows he has an ace in the hole.

    Except he doesn’t, because he gets himself captured and executed :( –> http://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/introducing-stupid-ned-stark

  616. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    gurgi, trust me, I’m not pretending to like the show because it gets me cool inside info and whatnot. I genuinely like the show. Others don’t. That’s fine. I understand that most of those who don’t like it aren’t coming on here to talk about it.

    But for those that do want to come here and criticize the show, they are certainly welcome to do so. In fact, many people here complain that that is all people want to do in the recaps. Criticize and nitpick. So I think most would agree that this is certainly a place where people are free to express their opinion about the show, be it positive or negative.

    For example, you have been vocal about your dislike of the show, but you are respectful of others’ opinion and don’t feel the need to insult others to get your point across. I respect that. You share your disappointments, but you are not attacking the show, the show runners or other fans.

  617. NousWanderer
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Saying the sex in GoT resembles “American Pie” is more than a stretch. Other than the fact that they both feature nudity, GoT’s tone is wildly different. I can’t even begin to compare the two.

  618. NousWanderer
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    gurgi: But try to refrain from making it personal to other posters.

    You do realize that he was responding to The Smiling Knight, right?

  619. Arya's Cat
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I honestly wouldn’t know. I haven’t seen “American Pie.” I was responding to purplejilly, and assumed by “American Pie”, she meant something akin to the brothel scene.

  620. JonSnow'sBastard
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Arya’s Cat: I honestly wouldn’t know. I haven’t seen “American Pie.” I was responding to purplejilly, and assumed by “American Pie”, she meant something akin to the brothel scene.

    In the next episode, it’s rumored that Jon walks in on Sam banging a Lemoncake in the mess hall.

  621. obsidian
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Arya’s Cat,

    purplejilly,

    So far, what with the impending demise of Drogo, I think the only relationship that might lend itself to the full-on rose petal treatment would be R+L , and who knows if we’ll see much or any of it ? Well, maybe a hint with Robb and Jeyne, or maybe Arys & Arianne since he’s so smitten, not just in lust. What will they do with Jon & Ygritte ? ( Mostly clothed , under furs , or in the deep dark of a cave)..;) But I agree , there could be more of a happy medium , in some cases. I wouldn’t complain…. Of course they can always write in a scene for Ros to make up for any hidden sex..:) I know I shouldn’t tempt fate that way.

  622. Arya's Cat
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard,

    Jeezus! Okay. Yeah — I know what movie it is now. That’s the only scene I know from it, though. I take it the rest was the same.

  623. purplejilly
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,
    Have you seen the movie “American Beauty”, though?

    I wasn’t trying to compare GoT to American Pie directly, what I was inferring was the handling of nudity, eroticism and sex in American Beauty, as compared to the handling of nudity, eroticism and sex in American Pie.

    American Beauty, to me, had a delicate, unsettling feel. But it was a well told, well ‘shown’ story, and everything fit in very well, despite it being disturbing, taboo subject matter (Older man lusting after his teenage daughter’s friend and gay eroticism)

    and in American Pie, well, for those who havent seen it, four guys are trying to lose their virginity before they graduate, and one guy experiments (and gets caught with) a warm apple pie. Literally a pie, not a euphemism. And there’s boobs.

    I dunno, maybe they intended the WhoreGate scene to be over the top, overly loud, and completely in your face. Maybe they wanted us to strain to hear LF’s speech over the moaning of the auditionees. If they did, this is where the hbogo popups would help!

  624. gurgi
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I didnt mean to imply you are pretending to like it. I dont think you would do that. I think perhaps you are too emotionally invested to give the critiques their due. There is a difference.

  625. Jeda
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    gurgi,

    I won’t be shocked if it stays on the air that long. If it’s cancelled it would be because it’s too expensive. Rome was cancelled for that reason, and also because the BBC wouldn’t do it on their own, but later HBO regretted the decision (as far as I know) with all the succesfull DVDs sales. This time they kept GoT less expensive than Rome to lower the risk, so all we have to wait for is how the DVD sales will do. Rome and Sopranos were huge hit in Britain, France and Italy, and there is also a big fanbase over there for GoT (cannot speak for Germany but probably as well). So if the sales are fine, starting at the beginning of season 2, there is a good chance this show goes all the way. I’m more concerned about GRRM finishing book 6 and 7 in time for that though because he has only 5 years before season 6 starts filming. He did write Book1 and Book2 in 4 years so it’s possible but… oh well, we’ll see.

  626. obsidian
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Arya’s Cat,

    purplejilly,

    Okay, I know I’m getting silly now, but the thought just struck me in regard to the J&Y example..I can just imagine a mound of heaving furs emitting loud slurps and moans and plunging noises ..makes me giggle and shudder simultaneously.

  627. purplejilly
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    JonSnow’sBastard: In the next episode, it’s rumored that Jon walks in on Sam banging a Lemoncake in the mess hall.

    I wouldn’t be surprised! And Sam would say, with an apologetic expression:
    “Jon, I told ya, I was missing the girls! And I don’t know where to put it!”

  628. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    gurgi, ah ok. Point taken. You might be right that I tend to slough off most of the criticisms, but it is only because lingering on them would detract from the enjoyment I derive from the show. I suppose I choose to focus on the positive stuff (of which there is a lot) than the negative (of which there is very little). To each his own.

  629. obsidian
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    1_RedCat,

    Lovely point. And I agree the connection between those two scenes with Dany and Drogo was very well done.

  630. purplejilly
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    obsidian,
    Oh no, now I’ve got that image stuck in my head too, LOL.. Especially since it’ll be ‘wilding sex’ I bet they will “Pie” it up..

  631. gurgi
    Posted June 2, 2011 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    obsidian: demise of Drogo, I think the only relationship that might lend itself to the fu