Quick Hits: Emmys, music and more
By Winter Is Coming on in Press.

Here are some news and notes from this past week:

 


115 Comments

  1. Knurk
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    Although I don’t give a crap about the emmy’s (ignoring the Wire?), I’m somehow very looking forward to the announcement of those nominations.

  2. Nikst
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    It would be insane if Game of Thrones didnt win best Drama series. Especially considering that Mad Men, who apparently is the favorite, has won several times and therefore shouldnt be able to win every year by doing the same thing over and over again. Lets hope Game of Thrones takes home allot of prizes. Not because the prizes themselves mean something, but because of the recognition and promotion it brings to the show and with it new viewers.

  3. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Just give all the emmys to Game of Thrones

  4. Lucas
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    When do they announce the emmy nominations?

  5. Knurk
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Lucas,

    july 14.

  6. Prankster
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    The Wire never won an Emmy? Yeah, that’s just a joke. And despite the Hollywood Reporter’s optimism, Emmys for GoT are pretty unlikely. *Maybe* next season.

    Interesting to see the ratings comparison in that article, too. I eagerly await the in-depth ratings breakdown for the first season that I’m sure this site will eventually be airing…:)

  7. Mike Chair
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Random thoughts.

    The Emmys are a mummer’s farce.

    Portal Awards should have a GoT ballot to make it easier.

    There should an award for “Best Cutie Patootie Actress Who Magically Materialized Out Of A Book”, but “Best Young Actor” will have to do for Maisie.

    The 5 reasons GoT should win everything are 1-GRRM, 2-D&D, 3-Nina Gold, 4-Emilia Clarke, and 5-The Fans.

    DouglasHarris0n’s [sic] version of “The Rains of Catamere” should be used by HBO.

    Gonzo for Dolorous Edd!

  8. Mimi Miéville
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    my girl emilia better win one. she was absolutely incredible this season.

  9. SeanFan
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    There’s another nice interview with Sean Bean while he was in Monte Carlo. He discusses his character of Ned. Wait a few seconds till the ad disappears from the page and the video will then start. It’s also available in HD if you click on the icon below the screen……..

    http://www.allocine.fr/series/ficheserie-7157/interviews/?cmedia=19229893

  10. KG
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    The Sean Bean interview amused me, because he seemed quite invested in the story as he was telling it – just as if you or I was explaining “Baelor’s” finale to someone else.

  11. dimensionallyt
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    I doubt we will have any luck with Emmys – they hate genre shows.

    The Muppets are freaking awesome. Beaker shall be my new desktop!

    Speaking of fannish things, does anybody know GRRM’s official view of fanfiction based on the show not the books? There is already a slew of it out there and I am vaguely curious to have a peek but don’t want to if he would object as much as he does with the books.

  12. GaR
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    dimensionallyt,

    The main reason GRRM hates fan fiction is because it’s lazy writing. Basing your lazy writing on a TV show rather than a book is still lazy writing.

    He also doesn’t want people fucking with his characters, and the characters on the TV show are his characters.

  13. Jimbeezee
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    I found another podcast of the GOT finale at Boomtron: http://www.boomtron.com/2011/06/game-of-thrones-season-1-finale-fire-and-blood-review/
    My fiancee and I both thought it was rather distasteful, actually. Quite often they seemed to be simply condescending and malicious toward many of the characters.

  14. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    GaR:
    dimensionallyt,

    The main reason GRRM hates fan fiction is because it’s lazy writing.Basing your lazy writing on a TV show rather than a book is still lazy writing.

    He also doesn’t want people fucking with his characters, and the characters on the TV show are his characters.

    fanfiction is not lazy writing, that’s just GRRM’s bias towards it playing out. Anyone who takes fanfiction writing seriously can tell you it’s anything but (actually it’s pretty freaking hard, hence the amount of badfic out there), but you have to realise it’s a completely different art form from writing original fiction.

    reading extensive amounts of fanfiction has actually opened my eyes to how lazy many published authors are. many don’t put nearly the amount of work into their characterizations or developing relationships that would get a FF author royally chewed out, instead a reader is forced to dumb down their incredulity because the author decided to use “because I said so” to move characters and plot.

  15. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Jimbeezee:
    I found another podcast of the GOT finale at Boomtron: http://www.boomtron.com/2011/06/game-of-thrones-season-1-finale-fire-and-blood-review/
    My fiancee and I both thought it was rather distasteful, actually.Quite often they seemed to be simply condescending and malicious toward many of the characters.

    wait, you mean there’s a podcast that has a greater circle of spite then the podcast of ice and fire?
    …i’m not sure how to feel about that.

  16. GaR
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Ashley Blackwoody,

    Not that I care or anything, but fan fiction is definitely lazy writing. No two ways about it.

    ::edit::

    If fan fiction writers are so brilliant, maybe they could come up with their own worlds and characters and actually publish something without breaching copyright.

  17. saluk
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    I think what he means by lazy isn’t that the writing is bad (as with anything, there are good and bad examples), but that you are using characters and worlds that you didn’t create. Still, by that definition you have things like superhero reboots, and adaptations (haha GoT) which could qualify as fan fiction, so lol. Christopher Nolan and D+D are lazy writers now? I wouldn’t take the authors stance on it as a reason not to seek it out if that is your fancy. I think it could be interesting to see the differences between book and show fanfiction :)

    For mashups, don’t miss Arrested Westeros!

  18. GaR
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    saluk,

    Dead right. Some fan fiction is very well written. If the writers of it wrote their own material they could probably make a good living off it.

    The TV series can’t be called fan fiction. It’s an authorised adaptation of an existing story.

  19. dimensionallyt
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    GaR, Ashley Blackwoody, Saluk

    I knew that would start something, whoops!

    Lots of fanfic is awful, lazy writing, lazy plotting, lazy everything. But lots of it is amazingly skilled and sophisticated. You would probably be surprised how many fanfic authors are also professional writers, or who later go on and publish their own imaginative fiction. A professional writer is not necessarily any worse or any better than an amateur, just different.

    Theoretically speaking, GoT is fanfic (or to use academic jargon, ‘a transformative work’) because it is re-shaping and (re-)creating scenes, characters, and settings in another medium. The only difference is scale and official approval, but neither of these stop something being a piece of fanfic. Besides, if we were going to reject all unofficial fanfic we would lose the Bible, Greek and Roman Myths and Legends, Shakespeare etc etc. Re-creating stories has been going on as long as stories have been told and it always will. Often the retelling can be ‘better’ than the ‘original’.

    I have never read any fanfic in this world because of respect for GRRM’s wishes, but he has let others play in his sandbox now so it seems less problematic. I love the idea of comparing book and tv fanfic!

  20. GaR
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    dimensionallyt,

    No. No, no, no.

    Retelling a story in a different medium is not fan fiction. It is an adaptation. An authorised adaptation, crucially.

    Is the Broadway show of Spiderman fan fiction? Don’t answer that actually, I’m afraid I’d disagree with the answer.

    Why am I discussing fan fiction? Damn it, guys :<

  21. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    dimensionallyt:
    Theoretically speaking, GoT is fanfic (or to use academic jargon, ‘a transformative work’) because it is re-shaping and (re-)creating scenes, characters, and settings in another medium. The only difference is scale and official approval, but neither of these stop something being a piece of fanfic.

    That’s just incorrect. The GoT television series is an adaptation of an existing work into another medium. It is in no way “fanfic” in any sense of the word as it is understood and used by the vast majority of people. Waving off the “official approval” as if it were some small detail is just silly. The series was done with the full consent and approval of and in collaboration with the author. Calling it fanfic is absurd to the extreme.

  22. John W
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    I think Dinklage and Clarke have a chance at garnering noms, beyond that I don’t think anyone else will.

    The Emmys have never been kind to genre shows, just ask Joss Whedon and Sarah Michelle Gellar.

  23. Mike Chair
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    dimensionallyt: Theoretically speaking, GoT is fanfic (or to use academic jargon, ‘a transformative work’) because it is re-shaping and (re-)creating scenes, characters, and settings in another medium.

    GaR: Retelling a story in a different medium is not fan fiction. It is an adaptation. An authorised adaptation, crucially.

    Eric Bigpicture: That’s just incorrect. The GoT television series is an adaptation of an existing work into another medium. It is in no way “fanfic” …

    On May 7, 2010, George R. R. Martin said:

    My position on so-called “fan fiction” is pretty well known. I’m against it, for a variety of reasons … Consent, for me, is the heart of this issue. If a writer wants to allow or even encourage others to use their worlds and characters, that’s fine. Their call. If a writer would prefer not to allow that… well, I think their wishes should be respected.

    It is known.

  24. stevelabny
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Fanfiction is no different than writing pre-existing characters or in a shared universe.

    Are the screenwriters for the TV show “lazy writers” because they didn’t create their own world and universe? Are any other writers who work on an adaptation, or join a show after it is created? What about any Marvel or DC writers for the past 60 years?

    Writing pre-existing characters is arguably more difficult, because they already have a “voice” that the readers expect to be consistent.

    Many of the current generation of authors, especially female young-adult authors, started off as fanfic writers – see Cassandra Clare.

    I don’t read fan-fic, but grognards mindlessly bashing on it are still grognards even if their name is GRRM.

    George’s opinions about fan-fiction are no more valid than his opinions about football (he roots for two teams? blasphemy), his opinions about politics (let’s not and say we did) or his opinion of LOST (ok, he’s right on that one) .

  25. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    I had always been under the impression that anything written by anyone other than Tolkien, Howard, and Martin is fan fiction, of a sort, in the fantasy/sword & sorcery genre. Changing the place names and character names does not make something original fiction. If the plots, characterizations, creatures, spells, etc. are all basically the same….how is that original.

    Has anyone really come up with a fourth way, a point of view within the genre that does not derive from the writing of the above three writers? I don’t really think so.

    Is that even possible? I don’t know. But if someone did, that would be original.

    For me, I don’t read fan fiction, just because I am trying to read so much already with such little time, that I let the publishing houses cull the herd for me.

  26. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    back to the post itself:

    Both Talking TV with Ryan and Ryan & Fire and Icewall Podcast are the two best podcasts about tv overall out there and recommends the four contributors writing about tv to anyone, especially Alan Sepinwall….he’s going to get a Pulitzer one day.

  27. Kit
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins:
    back to the post itself:

    Both Talking TV with Ryan and Ryan & Fire and Icewall Podcast are the two best podcasts about tv overall out there and recommends the four contributors writing about tv to anyone, especially Alan Sepinwall….he’s going to get a Pulitzer one day.

    I will add Cast of Thrones to the Podcast rec too. Hilarious people.

  28. Lex
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins:
    I had always been under the impression that anything written by anyone other than Tolkien, Howard, and Martin is fan fiction, of a sort, in the fantasy/sword & sorcery genre.

    Wow, I hope you’re joking.

  29. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    I think GoT will win plenty of awards where fans get to vote.

    On another point, does anyone else check the site every 10 minutes looking for a Stannis update? Geez, they film next month – get those contracts signed already!

  30. Mike Chair
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    stevelabny,

    If you read the GRRM link in my last post you would know that GRRM was not “bashing” fan fiction. In fact, he admits there are good arguments for and against it, and he admits to writing it, himself, in the past.

    My point was he is against it. Regardless of the validity or invalidity of his opinion, he obviously does not consider GoT (the tv show) to be fan fiction. There is no accepted definition of fan fiction. But, if I were to propose a test, rather than a definition, it would be to the ask the author of the original work if he considers the derivative to be fan fiction. By this (admittedly self-serving) test, the answer would be no, HBO’s GoT is not fanfic.

    In my opinion, when considering whether an adaptation can be considered fan fiction, one must consider how far the derivative: strays from the original work, tells a new story with exiting characters, introduces new characters into an existing story, and whether the original author participated in writing the derivative.

    Personally, I have nothing against fan fiction, if it is done well. I just don’t think HBO’s GoT qualifies as fan fiction.

  31. Ryan McCoy
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    HAHA! I check this about every few hours to see if there is a casting update. I think we will find out at least one major role this week, I mean filming is right around the corner!

  32. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    it makes my heart sing to see that nerdtastic GoT outdraws that banal, mysogynistic boys romp glorification of superficiality Entourage. Sex in the City was vilely superficial and Entourage is the cruder male version of Sex in the City (just a different city).

  33. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Wow, I hope you’re joking.

    Actually no, can you name any good writers who aren’t derivative of those three authors in some fashion in the fantasy/sword & sorcery genre?

    Though I should say that I think that Gene Wolfe is an island onto himself.

    And I am obviously excluding speculative fiction writers like Gaiman, Pratchett, etc.

    Lex, I checked out your site, very cool, but only found two fantasy writers, Erikson and Kay. According to wikipedia..trying to use a third party…here is Erikson style:

    Erikson has stated explicitly that he enjoys playing with and overturning the conventions of fantasy, presenting characters that violate the stereotypes associated with their roles.[6] Erikson deliberately began the Malazan Book of the Fallen series mid-plot rather than beginning with a more conventional narrative.[6][9] Erikson’s style of writing includes complex plots with masses of characters. In addition, Erikson has been praised for his willingness to kill central characters when it enhances the plot.[1]

    Sounds familar….

    In regards to Kay….he writes historical fiction crossed with Fantasy….extremely well….but again….that’s not original both in terms of concept and in execution.

  34. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins,

    stephen erickson pretty much breaks the moulde. so does China Mieville and R Scott Bakker and Guy Gavriel Kay just to name a few .

    and there are plenty of other writers who are pillars of the fantasy genre. Moorcock, Donaldson, Peake.

  35. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?,

    Agree to disagree then. As for Moorcock, wouldn’t you agree than a writer who fashions stories as an argument against the cliches formed by Tolkien, etc…..is by definition being derivative.

    Those are all great writers, some more than others. I put forth the idea that if something is not wholly original, than it could be argued that it’s a form of fan fiction, in some form. Another poster called out fan fiction for being unoriginal, therefore suspect. I’m arguing, beyond those three authors, who can we really say has been truly original.

    If someone writes a story in reaction to another story….that’s not originality….that’s a debate.

    Thank you for replying to my post. Agrees some of those writers are great ones, just not terribly original, for me.

  36. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Ryan McCoy,

    no joke, I bet it will all come down on one day…one epic day

  37. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins,

    I think it’s not exactly correct to say that authors who use tried and true fantasy imagery/characterization are directly responding to those great writers you mention (I may be incorrectly summarizing your point). I also can’t agree that other writers are writing fan-fiction because they use ideas that others may have been the first to exploit. That happens in non-fantasy fiction all the time and it’s not fan fiction, why does it have to be differnet for the fantasy genre? If I wrote a story about how a poor college kid killed a pawn broker would it be called Crime and Punishment fan fiction? I don’t think so, even if the general idea was taken from another writer. Was Shakespeare writing Greek myth fan-fiction? Don’t buy it.

  38. Who Is Jacopo Belbo?
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins,

    martin is no more original than kay (who predates him considerably) or bakker or erickson or wolfe or many many others. martin is GOOD but not pristinely original.

    nothing is pristinely original … it is true for music and most artistic expressions. everything has been done before in some form or fashion. some people can avoid tropes and cliches and blend together a variety of myriad influences into a, while not wholly original, still a unique tapestry. martin is one of those but he is certainly not alone.

    peake, howard and tolkien “invented” the modern fantasy genre. but both of them borrowed very heavily from myths and other sundry stories that predated them and were influenced by other writers who predated them in the proto-fantasy era (Lovecraft, Dunsany, Caroll, Burroughs) … heck most of tolkien is lifted straight from various scandanivian epic poems (the poetic and prose edda etc). it doesn’t make him any less great but it makes aruguing that he is some holy paragon of originality not only wrong but patently absurd.

  39. KG
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Ashley Blackwoody,

    Yes it is lazy. Make up your own damn characters if you’re such a writer.

  40. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    No worries, I just think if you replace my use of ‘fan fiction’ for not original, then we really aren’t arguing about anything, are we? Which is the point I am making about fan fiction. I don’t read it, not because it’s un original, you are right, in the end, what is? I don’t read it because I don’t have the time to read all the crap for one nugget of gold.

    In regards to Kay, yes, he is a great writer, no question, and the idea of using historical settings as analogues for fantasy is not originally a Martin idea, Shakespeare did it of course. But what makes Shakespeare original and Martin (to a much lesser extent, obviously) is NOT plot, but story and theme. What makes Martin original is the texture and feel of the stories. It does not feel like a reaction to something else, like Morcook and Erikson are.

    I guess I should stop talking, it’s hard for me to explain, but thanx for the exchange.

    edit: an example being Martin’s use of third person limited point of view.

  41. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    is prejudiced, but finds Ashley’s point pretty enlightening since it’s not a world I’m familiar with. I appreciate the insight she offers.

    but why stop at demanding new characters. Why not continue on to demand new plots…Oh…wait….

    Who Is Jacopo Belbo?

    I don’t believe that I bestowed Sainthood or argued for labeling them a new Holy Trinity. But if that makes your post have a bit of flair to say that I did, have at it.

    Thus far:

    Fanfic is unoriginal…..

    most/all modern published fantasy is derivative of Martin/Howard/Tolkien….

    therefore unoriginal….

    Those 3 guys stole from myths, history, and legends….

    therefore unoriginal…..

    Hence….WTF does it matter if fanfic is unoriginal?!?

  42. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins,

    Being derivative is not the same as writing fan fiction. If I were to write a story in which Legolas, Gimli and Frodo have a wacky new adventure in Middle Earth, that would be fan fiction. When GRRM writes a book in a Medieval-style fantasy setting somewhat reminiscent of Middle Earth, that is not fan fiction. It’s a new world, new characters, new story, etc. It is not based on someone else’s work at all.

    It’s certainly not an original concept or genre, and GRRM is clearly influenced by Tolkien (and has said as much), but that does not make it fan fiction. I feel like there is a misunderstanding about what that term means, because some people seem to be confusing “fan fiction” with “influenced by something.” Everything is influenced by something. As someone already pointed out, no art is completely original and nothing is free from outside influence.

  43. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins,

    Disregard my previous post, I see you just made the same point. :)

  44. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Eric Bigpicture,

    LOL…no worries brother….I usually talk my way to the proper position….after usually exhausting all the wrong ones.

    Great points though.

  45. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    That’s a great point, but I think that genre fiction, particularly SF, but also fantasy is almost like a conversation unto itself. And particularly in regards to plot. Which is why I think that genre writers are so well versed in the books that came before them.

    Then you have someone come along and by virtue of sheer originality of plot, style, characters, setting, use of point of view, changes the conversation. I think that Martin, Tolkien, and Howard did that. Perhaps saying original is the wrong word, but does think that most authors are reacting to those three than not.

    For instance, I think that Martin’s use of third person limited point of view will probably be more influential on other genre writers than the fact that he merged historical fiction and fantasy in the way that he did. A way that I think is different than Kay, who does precede him in using that technique, for which I stand corrected.

    Or the way that Tolkien, literally, invented a world from the words up. That all encompassing world building is still rippling forward.

    Great Stuff!

  46. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted June 26, 2011 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    I agree fanfiction can be horrendous when done improperly, but I grew up in the extended Star Wars universe and would never call Timothy Zahn a “lazy writer”. I have no doubt he has created his own world, but maybe they didn’t catch on with people or there was not enough interest for him to get published. I disagree with Martin on this point.

  47. Yan
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    Speaking of cute illustrated characters, I randomly found this diviantART gallery of cute illustrated characters from the books. It has hundreds of them:

    *Warning: contains spoilers for books 1-4*

    http://evrach.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=0

  48. Josh
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Okay I LOVE Peter Dinklage as Tyrion, I really do but honestly John Noble all the way. I LOVE Fringe and he’s just AMAZING every episode. He can make me laugh than cry in literally two seconds.

  49. Max from Russia
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Sean BEAN MUST WIN EMMY AWARD !

  50. Mick J
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    My eyes have glazed over from scanning this pointless fanfic/not fanfic debate.

    More importantly: Muppets.

  51. KG
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    There is no “creation” in taking someone else’s hard work and careful shapings and stealing them for your own stories without their permission.

    It’s intellectual theft. If you’re so talented, create your own world.

  52. the goat
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    Since WiC linked some mashup sites (Muppets were great btw), here’s A Song of Ice & Wire:
    http://asongoficeandwire.tumblr.com/

    My coz Kris helped me put together the .gif of Ned’s last moments. Credit also to gifsoup.com for the images, and David Simon for the line.

    Fanfic is what it is. People writing on the internet (i’m sure some of them also mail out a newsletter or whatever, but its mainly electronically disseminated). The real question is, “who gives a shit?”

    “Do you lie awake at night, fearing my gash?”
    gash = fanfic

    Pretty sure GRRM’s answer would be no. He’s not in favor of it, obviously, cuz who would want to see their creation bastardized (no pun intended), but he doesn’t go around suing every dumbass who posts a SanSan wannabe Harlequin romance novel. Because no one cares, and more important, no one profits.

    That .gif I made is totally illegal. Hell, HBO could sue me twice! But they won’t, because I am neither making money off their copyrighted material, nor am I preventing them from making money off their copyrighted material. Now if I made a pile of cash selling knockoff IZODs with Drogon instead of that stupid alligator (hipsters will buy anything), I’d probably get in trouble. Do you see what happens, Larry!? This is why fanfic will always exist, and everyone will continue not caring.

    Jaycel Adkins,

    You’ve inspired me to write some fanfic. It starts off with you making your absurd argument that every fantasy writer ever, except the three whose gashes you dream about, is unoriginal. Then Viserion flies in for no reason, and burns your legs off. Then Arya rips off her disguise (don’t even ask), and stabs you in the belly with Needle. Then Jules Verne runs over your entire family in his Bentley, gets out, pisses in your mouth while lecturing you on the history of fantasy literature, gets back in his Bentley, runs over your family again, and flips you off while driving away. Then Biter shows up. With his Ipad. He also has an IV, which he uses to administer milk of the poppy and various antibiotics to keep you alive. He also has one of those Clockwork-Orange-type-things that keeps your eyelids open, while he makes you watch hour after hour of C-Span II on his Ipad. At some point rats start gnawing on your entrails and stumps, but you don’t even notice cuz of the narcotics (also, C-Span II is super boring). Then the drugs wear off, and you do notice the rats. Luckily, Shaggydog scares them off, right before he bites off half your face. Biter thinks this is funny, so he eats three of your fingers. Then everyone gets bored, so they all go home. You want to go home too, but you have no legs (and only seven fingers). So you die. Screaming.

    Yay! Now I’m an author! Fanfic rules!

  53. theGodfarmer
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 4:41 am | Permalink

    Another thing that I’m pretty phsyced about that gives me hopes for both Emmy, more seasons, and so on is the IMDB ranking! :D We now got nearly 21.000 votes and it is still holding strong on 9,5!

    Lets compare some :)

    Boardwalk Empire – 11.500 votes – 8,9
    True Blood – 15.000 votes – 8,3
    Camelot – 2200 votes – 7,4
    Borgias – 1500 votes 8,5

    And then some big ones….
    Sopranos – 42.000 votes – 9,4
    the Wire – 35.800 votes – 9,7

    So…. When looking at this I get a very good feeling. We are beating the shows like Camelot and Borgias, knocking their socks off! And also standing our ground very good compared with Boardwalk and True Blood. Even with “gold-star” shows like Sopranos and the Wire.

    Btw, we are also beating both Rome and Deadwood ;)

    For me IMDB is a very good indication on how shows are doing. Many are voting and speaking their mind.

  54. dimensionallyt
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 4:41 am | Permalink

    the goat: Since WiC linked some mashup sites (Muppets were great btw), here’s A Song of Ice & Wire:http://asongoficeandwire.tumblr.com/

    That is awesome! And indeed, it is also fanfiction.

    I suppose this little string of comments has completely encapsulated the fanfic pros and cons.

    My earlier point, which others carried on, about fanfic being a retelling, is of course a little tongue-in-cheek, but the primary point is, as others have said, originality is kind of questionable. The Simarillion is basically Genesis re-written. There is a terrible urban fantasy series by Rob Thurman that is basically a rip-off from the tv show Supernatural. And what about the thankfully rejected Wonder Woman tv pilot. That sure as hell wasn’t approved by WMM. None of these examples would be called fanfic in common discourse, but creatively there is little difference between them and the ‘San/San Harlequin romances’ that re-create the characters as ‘Beauty and the Beast’, which is itself fanfic, which GRRM himself wrote for.

    It is never simple to argue semantics, the simplest argument is ‘GRRM doesn’t like it’.

  55. Blackfish Blues
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,
    Ryan McCoy,
    I check this site every morning to see if the Blackfish’s absence is official, have a good cry and then begin the healing process. /Dolorous Blues

  56. PatD
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    I find it amusing, and not a little bit surprising, that GRRM is so down on fanfic, considering it is, for all intents and purposes, like an informal training ground for fantasy writers. I’m not into it, but as has been mentioned, it’s harmless and doesn’t take food out of the author’s mouth, so I can’t get all worked up over the issue. Most authors have almost parental-like love for the characters they create, so, in a way, I guess his negativity towards fanfic is kind of understanding. The important thing is that he’s not authorized a bevy of lawyers to scrutinize the internet for potential legal action (like, say, J.K. Rowling has).

    It’s amusing in that all of literature is derivative, especially genre lit. You’ll realize just how unoriginal GRRM really is when you read something like Penman’s The Sunne in Splendour (an historical fiction about The War of Roses), because so many of the characters in ASoFaI could have, literally, walked off the pages of that book. Cersei is really Eleanor of Aquitaine in disguise. And I could go on and on. This isn’t a criticism. I think the way he’s adapted historical events and intrigue is brilliant. But when the issue becomes originality, well, I kind of have to chuckle about people’s claims that GRRM stands out in that area.

    Very few in the fantasy genre are, by definition, original, at all. As has been noted above, there are distinctive pioneers who have had a vast amount of influence on the modern genres. Most of the biggies have been mentioned, but one who is always, and woefully so, IMO, left out of that discussion is the marvelous Rosemary Sutcliff. Her Sword at Sunset (originally written in the 1960′s) was the very first, non-magical reimagining of the Arthurian Legend, and she’s pretty much cited by all those that followed as one who really effected change in the genre. There’s not a small parallel between her writing and George’s.

    Actually, if people are looking for reads to help them while away the long wait for Season 2, I’d strongly suggest Penman’s books. They don’t have magic or dragons, but they contain just about everything else that’s so great about TSoFaI series: painstaking medieval research, brilliantly plotted intrigue, terrific battle scenes, unforgettable characters, and all presented within a wonderfully complex, but very entertaining read. Start with The Sunne in Splendour, then go on to her Welsh Trilogy, and I guarantee you’ll feel like you’re almost in GRRM’s world again. It’s pretty amazing that both of these female authors write such terrific and exciting battle scenes. They both put the lie to that NYT author who claimed women don’t have an affinity for these things.

  57. Mike Chair
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    the goat: Since WiC linked some mashup sites (Muppets were great btw), here’s A Song of Ice & Wire:
    http://asongoficeandwire.tumblr.com/

    dimensionallyt: That is awesome! And indeed, it is also fanfiction.

    LOL. Agreed.
    I had an exchange on this site some weeks ago and it was decided that Omar Little would have little chance against Cersei. You’d have to call the Brother Mouzone.

  58. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    I know it…someone throw us a bone :)

  59. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins:
    Kingthlayer,

    That’s a great point, but I think that genre fiction, particularly SF, but also fantasy is almost like a conversation unto itself. And particularly in regards to plot. Which is why I think that genre writers are so well versed in the books that came before them.

    Then you have someone come along and by virtue of sheer originality of plot, style, characters, setting, use of point of view, changes the conversation. I think that Martin, Tolkien, and Howard did that. Perhaps saying original is the wrong word, but does think that most authors are reacting to those three than not.

    For instance, I think that Martin’s use of third person limited point of view will probably be more influential on other genre writers than the fact that he merged historical fiction and fantasy in the way that he did. A way that I think is different than Kay, who does precede him in using that technique, for which I stand corrected.

    Or the way that Tolkien, literally, invented a world from the words up. That all encompassing world building is still rippling forward.

    Great Stuff!

    I think I understand exactly what you’re saying and I agree to certain extent. It’s very difficult to go in new directions in the fantasy genre in particular.

  60. Lina
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    No fun having to choose between Maisie and Isaac. :( And they were up against Daniel Radcliffe? Can you be considered a “young actor” if you’re in your twenties and have done 7 major movies? :/

  61. DavosFTW!
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    Can someone interview Ramin Djawadi and ask him what he thinks of the fan covers of his intro. Personally I think it could become one of the greatest all time movie/tv themes up there with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, X Files, Jaws etc.

    I think individual episodes could maybe do with more music but when its there its epic. Love the covers.

    Down with Qarth!

  62. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    I’m not sure inspiring someone of your wit and talent is a good thing or a bad thing, but thank you for the welcome.

  63. Brad
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins,

    For any art, there are a very small number of components that creators re-use and rearrange. In western music it’s the 12 note scale, and on another level, certain rhythmic patterns. As a musician I used to kind of freak out over this; how could I possibly do anything original or distinguish myself?

    By your logic, all musicians write the equivalent of “fan fiction” by reusing musical ideas, and visual artists do too by using the same color palette as their colleagues. It seems to me that the art of creation is in having something personal to say with the musical forms we all use, or visual art forms we all use, or in any means of expression.

    Famously, and most applicable to your post, it is an often heard idea that there are only a finite number of story types, that get told and re-told. See http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/plotFARQ.html.

    In light of this, it’s a subjective matter for one to pick their “big 3″ fantasy writers as you have. I think they are 3 excellent writers, but I do not see any reason to elevate them while diminishing others like Fritz Lieber, Roger Zelazny, Gene Wolfe absolutely, and yes, Steven Erikson.

    As far as fanfiction goes, I don’t think the very practice is “lazy writing” at all. I think there are excellent fanfiction writers, and there are lazy ones. It’s a matter of the effort put into it.

  64. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    Thank you for your reply.

    My main argument is that fan fiction being completely dismissed and harped upon by virtue of not creating original characters/settings is more akin to the pot calling the kettle black.

    Even Martin took one of his major plot devices from an actual historical event.

    Red Wedding

    There is alot more that goes into the actual writing of fiction than creating characters and setting, which I imagine that fanfic writers do. In addition, as previously noted. fan fiction writers get to train themselves doing those things in their fanfic.

    I think you can call fan fiction alot of things….the same way you can call fiction alot of things.

    But lazy?….hmm….someone who is actually familiar with the writing process wouldn’t really make that charge fairly….I think.

    Brad:

    Yes, I think you and I agree more than disagree.

    I would just say that there is a difference between originality of plot and originality of technique.

    The whole ‘Hero with a Thousand Faces’ idea is about plot and structure, where there is very little original thought.

    But how those stories are told, via say Tolkien’s world building or Martin’s use of point of view could be deemed original and influential.

    In terms of visual artists….the line I would draw would be before and after the use of perspective by early Renaissance artists, as an example.

  65. Nick
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    I assume a few of you will find this interesting:

    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/52191-adwd-coming-early/

    Hope it all works out. Amazon.de say I’ll have the book by Thursday

  66. purplejilly
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    dimensionallyt: It is never simple to argue semantics, the simplest argument is ‘GRRM doesn’t like it’.

    It’s sad that he doesn’t like it, some of the funniest things I have ever read were fan-fic, like Xena fanfic, and Harry Potter Fanfic – but I can understand that if you are an author, and you create characters, that you are sort of jealously protective of them, and don’t want anyone else writing things about them, or making them ‘do’ things.

    If I was an author, I think I would be flattered that people liked the characters and the world so much that they’d want to write their own adventures in it. But maybe not, maybe if that actually happened, I’d be upset and jealous. I dunno. It’s hard to say.

  67. Matthias Hinkelmann
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    finally, cool to be a german ;)
    Never thought of saying this in my life… but hell yeah!!!
    we need to wait until winter till GAME OF THRONES hit our screens… but we get ADwD 2 weeks earlier… to cool!!!

  68. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    Nick,

    Wow! Something to be truly jealous over!

    You should post a picture of you with the book if you did get it…..that’s awesome.

  69. Nick
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    I totally will.

    and a picture of the last page ;p

    nah not really. But seriously I’d watch out for spoilers across the internet if this does happen.

  70. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I think there are two levels operating with Martin’s views…actually.

    1. True fan fiction, normal people writing stuff and sharing it amongst themselves via online forums and sites….kinda no big deal…no one is making $$$ really off of it, at least not the writers, maybe the websites via advertising….then again…who HERE is seriously going to take issue with that.

    2. Then what is happening to Robert Jordan/Bran Sanderson with Wheel of Time. It’s completely not based on anything but speculation and some of the interviews Martin has given, but thinks THAT is where his true spite lies. The whole, if Martin can’t finish, someone else will….to which Martin rightly states….NO THEY WON’T. Thinks that is really the nut that lies at the heart of Martin’s view on FanFic…just my armchair speculation, but kinda think it holds up.

  71. Knurk
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Just ordered mine from Germany, that would be totally awesome and bad news for upcoming deadlines!

    Why are the books here in the Netherlands twice as expensive as in the rest of the world?

  72. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    while I wouldn’t say any form of fiction influenced by another is fanfiction, I will say any form of adaptation, either television, theatre, comic, is. It’s someone who is not the original author working with that story.

    I will say I’m an elitest and a heavy handed critic when it comes to fanfiction. It takes a lot to impress me, because to me simply writing down your fantasy involving these character is lazy, but it’s not lazy writing, it’s lazy fanfiction. Fanfiction is not about wowing me with your creativity in terms of world building, it’s to wow me with how clever you are with by just twisting one thing, the pile of dominos will fall in a completely different direction, opening your eyes to a whole new set of possibilities. However, you can’t do this without staying in character, and can convince me that this is how these characters, that I’ve come to know quite well, would act this way.

    I’ll say it again, many original writers are down right lazy when it comes to characterization. I think people should start using fanfiction as a teaching tool to develop writers characterization abilities. Fanfiction is all about reader manipulation. A fantasy author could tell me the sky is purple and I’d have no choice but to believe him, because he says so. If I’m reading fanfic there is no way the author could tell me the sky is purple when I know perfectly well the sky is blue, but a good fanfiction author – a good reader manipulator – could convince me, and if they’re damn good, could probably even get me to question my memory of the original work it’s based off of. Original authors have it easy because a reader is not questioning the how and why every little thing they do but you could bet your ass that I’m doing that when I’m reading fanfiction.

    Like I’ve said, it takes a completely different set of skills required to be successful.

    Yes the majority of fanfiction out there is trash, however I’m willing to bet that if the majority of published works out there were created by 14 year old girls who’ve never used a spell check before, then you’d probably be saying the same for that. If GRRM doesn’t like it because it’s people playing in his sandbox, fine, but when he says it creates lazy writers, well that’s just false speculation on his part.

  73. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    I also ordered the book. Usually it takes about a week or slightly more for the order to get to Israel.

  74. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Knurk:
    Just ordered mine from Germany, that would be totally awesome and bad news for upcoming deadlines!

    Why are the books here in the Netherlands twice as expensive as in the rest of the world?

    Only twice as expensive? :) When I wanted to buy the books that True Blood is based on, I went to the local bookstore and they were ~17.5$ per book. I said to myself “Fuck it, that’s what the Internet is for (besides porn)” and ordered the first 3 on Bookdepository, for 7$ per book, with free delivery.

    My main hobby is building plastic models, mainly armor and ships. The prices of models and related materials (paints and such) here are about twice the price on good webstores like LuckyModel, and that’s including shipping costs.

  75. purplejilly
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    since we’ve got time to kill until we get more casting news, for any fanfic fans out there, for lots of lulz, everyone should read the worst Harry Potter fanfic ever, “My Immortal”.

    If you google harry potter and my immortal, you’ll find the page describing it and linking to it. It’s the Rebecca Black’s Friday of fanfic. There are dramatic readings of it on youtube which are hilarious. I feel happy for the girl who wrote it (probably a 15 yr old and definitely no spell check! or dictionary check! or thesaursus check!), because at least she got a LOT of people to read her work, which is always the goal of a writer anyway, right? This might be the kind of stuff that keeps Martin awake at night, thinking about fanfic :P

  76. lather
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    I love the soundtrack. I think it’s very epic. I mop with it on ipod, it makes mopping epic. I make epic sandwiches, I push epic poops. I hope the soundtrack wins all the awards.

  77. Chrysee
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Buzz kill, guys. Looks likely that someone noticed the twitter activity and may have fixed the amazon.de shipping.

  78. dizzy_34
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    party’n party’n yeah! fun, fun, fun, fun… (you had to bring up that song huh?)

  79. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    since we’ve got time to kill until we get more casting news, for any fanfic fans out there, for lots of lulz, everyone should read the worst Harry Potter fanfic ever, “My Immortal”.

    If you google harry potter and my immortal, you’ll find the page describing it and linking to it. It’s the Rebecca Black’s Friday of fanfic.There are dramatic readings of it on youtube which are hilarious.I feel happy forthe girl who wrote it (probably a 15 yr old and definitely no spell check!or dictionary check! or thesaursus check!), because at least she got a LOT of people to read her work, which is always the goal of a writer anyway, right?This might be the kind of stuff that keeps Martin awake at night, thinking about fanfic :P

    wow, I’ve actually heard of this. I go to all the fanfic panels at cons, and this is one that actually comes up. I’m a fandom sociology nerd, that’s why I love this stuff so much. says so much about fandom and the inner workings of fanboy/girl’s minds. To those who listen to the podcast, you know i’m a huge san/san shipper but surprisingly I would never write san/san fic… I would however write fic making complete and horrible fun of all the san/san stories out there, but do it in a clever way that makes half the readers unaware I’m making fun of them. All my stories (different fandom) are based around social and fandom commentary. That’s not something I can do outside of fanfiction and actually the lack of asoiaf fanfiction is the reason I have no interest in writing for it. There’s not enough material for me to secretly make fun of.

    I also feel no shame completely derailing this thread since as said, there’s not much to talk about and fanfiction’s pretty much taboo on westeros so i get nowhere to debate it.

  80. Anvil
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Chrysee:
    Buzz kill, guys. Looks likely that someone noticed the twitter activity and may have fixed the amazon.de shipping.

    Too bad, but mine is already in the shipping process. :confused:

  81. OldGran
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    I expect Fringe to get most awards, they had a great season. I hope Thrones gets a mention for something though. Is there a catagory for ground breaking? and how do you choose between Issac and Maisie, they are both so good.
    But the thing that surprised me the most- no Justified. I want to get that one on DVD.

  82. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Anvil: Too bad, but mine is already in the shipping process. :confused:

    Mine too. I still have June 28th as a shipping date and can’t change anything about the order.

  83. Nick
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Oh god I hope those orders that changed to preparing to dispatch will get sent!

  84. purplejilly
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    Ashley Blackwoody,

    That sounds like your stuff would be interesting to read! yeah, the My Immortal stuff is amazing, especially because the girl wrote SO MUCH of it, and obviously never even used spell check. 40 chapters of it.. for example:

    “What happened 2 Snipe?” I growled.

    “U will see.” Draco giggled mistressly. He opened a door……………Snap nd Lumpkin werz there!11 Serious waz pokering dem by staging dem wif a blak nife.

    “NOOOO PLZ!1111” Lumpkin bagged as Serious started 2 suk his blood. I laffed statistically. I tok some photons of him and Snap bing torqued. (ok I no dis iz men but fink abot it ppl dey r pedoz nd Snap trid 2 rap dem and neway sadiztz rok haz any1 seen shrak atak 3 lolz). We took sum of Snipe’s blod den Drako and I went bak 2 our roomz. We sat on my goffik blak coffin. My cloves were kinda drity so I pot on a blak leather outfit fingie kinda like da 1 Suelene haz in Undreworld. (if u haven’t herd of it den FUK U!111) . I put on some blak platform high heelz. Darko put on ‘desolition liverz’ by MCR. Den………………………………………….we storted 2 take of eachotherz clozez. I tok of his shit nd he had a six-pak, lolz. We started 2 mak out lik in Da Grudge. He pot his wetnes in my u-know-what sexily. I gut an orgy.

    “Oh Draco!111111!1 Oh mi fuking gud Draco!1111” I screemed passively as he got an eructation.

    “I luv u TaEbory.” he whispred sexily and den we fel aspleep lol.

  85. Abyss
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Off-Topic:
    Casting-call for season 2 is out!

  86. fruity
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    My take on why GRRM doesn’t like fan fiction is this: most unpublished fiction is crap. Wait, hear me out. Reading most fiction is a tedious activity, similar to shoveling manure.

    GRRM is relatively interactive with fans. But if he had to interact with fan fiction, he would have to 1. read a lot of it, and 2. lie often about its quality (to be encouraging, a nice guy). I think that it is easier to be encouraging than to read it, of course. It is faster to write a sentence or two.

    By not supporting fan fiction, he doesn’t have to officially respond to any of it. Also, he’s not done with his own story. I think there’s an awful What’s Happenin’ episode where Rerun sends a manuscript to the station and shortly after believes he was robbed of his idea without getting credit. I think the resolution was he found out that two dozen people had the same plot idea.

    If you consider GRRM’s series Wild Cards which is written by a stack of writers, you can see he actually has no problem with people picking up his characters.

    In brief: GRRM simply doesn’t have enough time to ‘support’ fan fiction.

  87. kerning
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    I’ve been voting the Portals each day now. :)

    Sadly, personally I couldn’t vote Lena for best actress…not a hater (though I feel her performance could have been better), but Paula Malcolmson on Caprica to me was stellar.

    Also disappointed the best episode nominated there is the premiere. Not “Baelor,” or “Fire and Blood” or “A Golden Crown” or “The Pointy End”? I think even outside of peoples’ personal preferences, most would agree those 4 are by far superior.

  88. purplejilly
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    fruity,
    Also I have heard of some authors who support fan fiction of their works, but do not personally read any of it, in order to avoid the conflicts of people saying they stole their idea. That sort of seems like a happy medium. Keeps the original author away from the stress of seeing what other people do with their work, and eliminating the legal complications that might arise a la your “ReRun” example..

  89. metalgoddessamb
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    I don’t know where to put this, so I’ll mention it here:

    Did anyone else experience GoT withdrawal yesterday? because I sure did!

  90. tek
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    metalgoddessamb,

    nope! My GOT group got together last night to play the board game. Had a blast (and a little bit of revenge, as I won as House Stark!)

  91. metalgoddessamb
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    tek:
    metalgoddessamb,

    nope! My GOT group got together last night to play the board game. Had a blast (and a little bit of revenge, as I won as House Stark!)

    very good!

    I just need the book now to help me move on…less than two weeks…can’t wait!

  92. Alan
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    fruity:
    My take on why GRRM doesn’t like fan fiction is this: most unpublished fiction is crap. Wait, hear me out. Reading most fiction is a tedious activity, similar to shoveling manure.

    GRRM is relatively interactive with fans. But if he had to interact with fan fiction, he would have to 1. read a lot of it, and 2. lie often about its quality (to be encouraging, a nice guy). I think that it is easier to be encouraging than to read it, of course. It is faster to write a sentence or two.

    By not supporting fan fiction, he doesn’t have to officially respond to any of it. Also, he’s not done with his own story. I think there’s an awful What’s Happenin’ episode where Rerun sends a manuscript to the station and shortly after believes he was robbed of his idea without getting credit. I think the resolution was he found out that two dozen people had the same plot idea.

    If you consider GRRM’s series Wild Cards which is written by a stack of writers, you can see he actually has no problem with people picking up his characters.

    In brief: GRRM simply doesn’t have enough time to ‘support’ fan fiction.

    You’re right in the sense that fanfic is generally terrible, and I’m sure Martin wants no part of the aspects that you mention.

    Let’s face it — 99% if fanfic is “wouldn’t it be awesome if this happened!” It’s the type of comfort writing that Martin has criticized before. (And the type of writing I personally have no time for – I get the allure “this scene is badass” fantasy writing but haven’t enjoyed it in years).

    But I think you’re wrong that this is his big issue.

    He’s been pretty clear that the concept of fanfic is something he doesn’t like. These are his characters, this is his story — the idea of someone messing with your characters is not something I’d want and I can see why he’d dislike it.

    Personally, I don’t get the point of fanfic. I don’t read books to read what I want the story to be — I read it to read the story, however it goes.

  93. HandmaidenofDany
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I have never read any fanfic, but I don’t blame others for wanting to write it. Some sidestory or maybe an aternate route. I completely understand the “what if” concept.

  94. Alan
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Just because something has similar themes, storylines or bears a resemblance doesn’t put in the fanfic realm. There’s some crap fantasy out there (and there’s probably fanfic that better written) but the key differential is while Cersei may have elements of a historical figure or someone may have elves in their story, Cersei is not Eleanor of Aquitaine and that elf isn’t Legolas.

    And adaption is hard work but no, it’s not fanfic and no, it’s not necessarily as creative in the traditional sense. Though getting the story to stay whole in another medium often requires creative solutions. But no one is adapting ASOIF to a novel or short story like fanfic does. And while people do change the story in adaptations, their intent is supposed to be to keep the story whole. They just don’t always do a good job.

    Personally, whatever floats your boat. I think it’s pointless, personally, but it’s pointless for me. And I’m sure there’s actually some very good technical writing amidst the miles of crap. But let’s stop pretending that it’s the same as even derivative original fiction or adaptations. There’s an easy line to see in most cases.

  95. James Brookes
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    George’s opinions about fan-fiction are no more valid than his opinions about football (he roots for two teams? blasphemy),his opinions about politics (let’s not and say we did) or his opinion of LOST (ok, he’s right on that one) .

    George’s opinions about fan-fiction based on his work are completely valid; he owns the copyright on the characters, the setting, etc. Ironically, they’re more valid than anything else you cited above, where he is just a bystander like the rest of us.

  96. James Brookes
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    By the way, I don’t begrudge GRRM his stance at all, but one of the things he said in his blog post appears to be incorrect:

    …no one mentioned one crucial aspect of copyright law — a copyright MUST BE DEFENDED. If someone infringes on your copyright, and you are aware of the infringement, and you do not defend your copyright, the law assumes that you have abandoned it.

    I did a quick search and it seems like GRRM is confusing a trademark with a copyright. Am I missing something here? Just curious.

  97. Ashley Blackwoody
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    As soon as someone adapting a work puts any of their own idea’s into it, it becomes fanfiction. Anything that doesn’t take place in canon is fan created fiction. “Do you lie awake at night, fearing my gash?” <George didn't write it, it's not canon, it's fiction.

    The legal side of fanfiction is a touchy matter. Long story short, authors can't read fanfiction, writers take it down when asked to avoid a court finally making a definitive ruling either way. And no, the whole “must protect his copywrite” is either BS or he doesn’t understand the laws.

  98. Mimsy
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    I think you were right about many things.

    DouglasHarris0n’s [sic] version of “The Rains of Catamere”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0xu7P-zzsk

    That is really interesting. I think HBO and GRRM should make a deal with some record company, let them have some young artist they want to promote to create a version of rains of castamere for the third season. The emotional effect of that song, properly done, could be enormous. It would have a few million potential fans even before first airing. Great hit potential. Frankly I think some record companies would kill to get a budding artist for that song.

  99. purplejilly
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    metalgoddessamb: I don’t know where to put this, so I’ll mention it here:Did anyone else experience GoT withdrawal yesterday? because I sure did!

    YEP! It was terrible!!

  100. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I can see your point that perhaps it is unfair or even more likely incorrect to argue that fan fiction vs. derivative fiction is a distinction without a difference.

    Summing up my major point and in reply to the posting of some other great contributors, I think that in terms of ‘originality’ we should give that label to writers based upon technique/craft rather than plot or character.

    I feel, Alan, that most fantasy is in a way fan fiction, just with different Proper Nouns.

    Therefore, if we want to celebrate originality and innovation in the genre, let’s save it for people who contribute new techniques to the craft, rather than new stories, because in actuality there really aren’t any.

  101. Anvil
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Dubrovsky: Mine too. I still have June 28th as a shipping date and can’t change anything about the order.

    Got my shipping confirmation minutes ago. Yeeehaaah!

  102. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Anvil: Got my shipping confirmation minutes ago. Yeeehaaah!

    Mine is still in “Shipping soon” status.
    Hope for the best and stuff …

  103. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Dubrovsky,

    Argh…hates you both!

    Just kidding.

    Seriously, take a pic and blast it on here…..we’ll be sure to rain down nothing but love.

  104. Mimi Miéville
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    thanks for introducing me to the best piece of literature i’ve read in a long time. this is like the world’s longest trolling session.

  105. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Someone was bored enough to analyze My Immortal for tropes:
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/MyImmortal

    Whoever did it, I salute him.

  106. saluk
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Lol, I am familiar with My Immortal. It’s somewhat transcendental :)

    There is some really well done “fan fiction” out there by famous authors. Check out Neil Gaiman’s “A Study in Emerald”. It uses characters created purely by other authors in a new and inventive way. I think it’s more acceptable since the authors are no more, but I wonder what they would have thought? Bob Kane is no longer writing batman comics, but many subsequent authors took the story to great places. There have been plenty of misses there as well, but would we be better off if batman had stopped producing anything after the original artist stopped?

    None of the these are some internet dweeb shipping two characters together in some kind of weird fantasy wish fulfilment, but well-written and thought out positioning of characters in new stories. I really don’t think fan fiction is a good term for this kind of thing… Anyone have any ideas for a better term?

    As a writer I’m not sure how I personally would feel with other people ripping into my stories. Legend of the Seeker as an adaptation really is fan fiction, consisting of 90% invented situations and dialog. If I was the author of those books I would be furious at what happened, even though it was completely legal.

    I think though this is the kind of thing I can’t truly understand until it happens to me, which isn’t likely, heh. I think that responding to fiction with fiction though makes a bit of sense.

  107. purplejilly
    Posted June 27, 2011 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Mimi Miéville: purplejilly, thanks for introducing me to the best piece of literature i’ve read in a long time. this is like the world’s longest trolling session.

    Seriously, on nights when my husband and I need a laugh, we have a few glasses of wine or something, then I do dramatic readings of various sections in my best ‘voice actor’ style. I’m not a voice actor but I play one when I am drunk : )

    Some of the funniest parts are the words she misspells, or when she uses the wrong word that ends up having a hilarious unintentional meaning. My favorite was a part where the MC has the teachers “Snap” and “Loopin” peeking through her window, on broomsticks and ‘masticulating’ at the sight of her. LOLOLOL.
    Normally I am not a snarky or mean person, but apparently many people along the way (preps!) tried to get her to use a dictionary, use spell check,and review her writing before publishing, and it went in one pale, elf-like ear, past the limpid bloo eyes and out the other ear. And like I said before, at least she got people to read her fanfic, and since she wrote 40 chapters of it, that probably makes her happy in the long run!

  108. Conor
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Words cannot express how much I love those cartoon character adaptions, also according to the creator he’s going to add more, such as the rest of the Starks and Drogo!

  109. Anvil
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 3:03 am | Permalink

    Jaycel Adkins:
    Alexander Dubrovsky,
    Seriously, take a pic and blast it on here…..we’ll be sure to rain down nothing but love.

    http://www.abload.de/img/dsc001329j39.jpg

    http://www.abload.de/img/13045973915045k2v.jpg

  110. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 3:46 am | Permalink

    Anvil: http://www.abload.de/img/dsc001329j39.jpg

    http://www.abload.de/img/13045973915045k2v.jpg

    Nice :)
    I still haven’t got my confirmation e-mail, but maybe it’s because I didn’t choose the fastest delivery. The order still has “will be shipped soon” status, with today as a shipping date and I can’t change anything about it.

  111. Matthias Hinkelmann
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 4:20 am | Permalink

    http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4128/dancec.jpg

    so, some guy’s got lucky in germany, before they stopped it… i guess amazon.de is in deep trouble ;)

  112. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    I got my confirmation e-mail few seconds ago and the status of the order changed to “shipped”. I should get it by next weekend tops, judging by my previous dealings with Amazon.

    That just made my day! :)

  113. Jaycel Adkins
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Anvil,

    Kudos to you, Ser.

  114. dimensionallyT
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    purplejilly: “My Immortal”.

    I haven’t read the rest of the thread, but took a quick diversion to this fic. Holy crap! That is awesome. There must be a tumblr somewhere with links to all the worst fanfic, some of the Supernatural ones I have read are beyond terrible (others are amazing though!).

  115. dimensionallyT
    Posted June 28, 2011 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Alan: Let’s face it — 99% if fanfic is “wouldn’t it be awesome if this happened!” P>

    It really depends on the fandom and the writer. A lot of fanfic is simply speculative ‘what would happen if X had won the battle/not died/succeeded in killing Z’. You are right that a lot of the wish fulfilment stuff is terrible (especially when people write themselves into the story) but fanfic is a lot more complex than that.

    Ashley Blackwoody
    I’m a fandom sociology nerd, that’s why I love this stuff so much.

    Me too, but from the cultural studies perspective instead. I’m one of those nerdy article-writing academic types, yey for us!


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