Writers talk character cuts and season two storyline
By Winter Is Coming on in Press, Speculation.

David Benioff and Dan Weiss, writers and producers of Game of Thrones, were interviewed recently on a Sirius Radio show called What’s Worth Watching hosted by Jon Hein and Jenny Hutt. In the interview they talk mostly about the usual stuff (the child actors are great, George’s story is brilliant, etc.) although they do drop a few new interesting tidbits (Jack Gleeson smokes a pipe!). But there are two exchanges that I think were particularly interesting for devoted fans of the series. One has to do with character cuts and one has to do with the season two storyline.

First off, when Jon (who has read the books) asks which characters they wish they could have kept in this first season, David & Dan’s answer is vague but potentially revealing. Here is the transcript:

Jon: Are there any characters from the first book that you wish you could’ve got into this series that didn’t make the cut?

Dan: We were so aware of the kind of choices we’d have to make, we knew we’d have to condense and cut and what-have-you, so I feel like from the beginning, one of our main jobs was to focus in on who we loved and who we didn’t think we could do without, so I feel like we got most of the ones we really, really…

David: And I know Jon you’re a Blackfish fan, so I apologize. But the truth is there are so many new characters coming in, so that could be confusing. Many more than characters who die in the first season. And that keeps happening, each season there are new characters coming in, and at a certain point you have to be careful because, a.) there is a budget, and b.) we have about 540 minutes to tell the entire story each season. And you can only go back and forth between so many characters before it all starts to feel so diffused that you lose track of what’s going on and you lose touch with the central characters.

Jenny: But next season a lot is going to happen with Bran and Rickon…

David: Oh yeah. All of the characters that you know from the first season are back in a major way it’s just there are some new characters as well. That’s what I’m saying, I guess, we need to make sure we have enough time to tell all these stories properly and that does mean there are certain stories that we’re just not gonna touch on, certain minor plotlines or minor characters we just don’t have time to give proper weight to. We’d rather not throw them in there for a 30 second cameo as opposed to spending more time with our central characters.

What do you think? Is Benioff talking about the Blackfish there? And is he talking about the whole series or just referring to the first season?

The other interesting answer, and speculation on what it may mean for the season two storyline, after the break. Beware as this speculation will contain spoilers from book three of the series. You’ve been warned!


As they are wrapping up their interview, Benioff makes an interesting comment about one of the themes of season two:

Jon: Season two, you hard at work on it now? What can people expect?

Dan: In Belfast, typing away, prepping away, designing away, building away…

David: Dragons, direwolves…

Dan: …and not sleeping away.

David: Jenny, you’re gonna be happy, season two is the season of the love story.

Hmmm… The only love story I can think of in book two is one that happens offscreen. Confirmation of a Jeyne-Robb romance in season two? What do you think?


217 Comments

  1. Ana Carolina S.
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    And maybe some SanSan stuff <3

  2. Chrysee
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Well it could have to do with Jon and Ygritte I mean, honestly not so much happens with Jon in the second book that that particular storyline can’t extend into the third book stuff. And he’s removed enough from the rest of the story where this could be okay without messing with other book two storylines. The same would be even more true of Dany, but there’s not alot of romance to be had there.

    edit: I also have to say I’m totally fine if the Blackfish is cut. He’s awesome in the books, but I think I’m much more open to changes in the series than most.

    But hey, think of how much time they could save in season two if they’d also cut Ros :)

  3. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Love story wtf…

  4. JD
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Ah, ah, there are a lot more than that! Don’t forget about:

    ) 1Jon-Ygritte
    2) Tyrion-Shae (one-sided, ill-fated, but oh well)
    3) Brienne-Renly (see above)
    4) Renly-Loras
    5) Perhaps the very delicate beginnings of Samwell-Gilly

    I bet I’m missing some . . . Anyone else?

  5. Saso Alauf
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Well they already said Robb would get a more on-screen role in season two than what he had in the books…

  6. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Chrysee, they better not move that story up. If they don’t end Jon’s season two storyline with him dueling the Halfhand and joining the wildlings that is a big fail, in my opinion.

  7. Saso Alauf
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    either that or Theon takes Catelyn as a bed slave…

  8. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Sounds like Jeyne & Robb to me.

    Ana Carolina S.,

    And not at all like San/San. That is a lot of things, but not a love story.

  9. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    JD,

    Asha and Theon.

  10. Kana
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    JD,

    Plus the whole Renly-Loras-Margaery triangle, which I would love to be further developed from the books.

  11. Ana Carolina S.
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    GaR:
    Sounds like Jeyne & Robb to me.

    Ana Carolina S.,

    And not at all like San/San.That is a lot of things, but not a love story.

    Agreed, it’s a sick relationship for both of them.

    But a fangirl can dream :P

  12. Josh Parker
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    I’ve always believed we’d see the Robb/Jeyne romance happen on screen. This makes me happy as it’s a canonical way to expand Richard Madden’s screentime and I don’t at all have a problem with it.

  13. JD
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Oh, but Jon-Ygritte doesn’t really start until Storm, right? And I agree with Winter’s opinion on how that story line should end . . .

    TastesLikeTheSea,
    I heart this comment.

    Kana,
    Yep!

  14. Johan Sporre
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Cutting some of Arya’s encounters perchance? Maybe Bolton will still be missing (and they’ll combine Ramsay and Roose to do stuff in the North).

  15. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    I wouldnt really care if they dropped the Blackfish, as he is one of the most overrated chars in the series, in my opinion.

  16. fuelpagan
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion and Shea
    Robb and Jeyne
    Brienne toward Renly
    Loras and Renly
    San/San
    Littlefinger and himself

  17. Chrysee
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I don’t know. It’s definitely a good break in his story, but unless they’re only planning to use him in a few episodes, there just isn’t that much more that happens before that. Especially considering how much happens in book 3, they’d be silly NOT to push what they can into season two for those characters that just don’t have very much going on AND are not as directly tied in to the rest of the storyline. Not every awesome moment can make the season finale :/

  18. dizzy_34
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Having not heard the context of the interview, I think he might have been kind of flippant about that “season of the love story” comment. I mean there are several romantic “moments” but there’s no central love story in book 2 There’s Tyrion and Shea I guess.

  19. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Cersei and Moonboy of course, George never wrote in details about that relationship. A golden chance for D&D.

    But seriously, season 2 is not about the lovestories. Season two is all about the gold in the village and Tyrion. Or maybe David is a huge Arya&Gendry shipper…

  20. Chrysee
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    Littlefinger and Varys sure had a budding romance in season one, what with all their mutual admiration and gash banter. Clearly, once Tyrion is thrown into the mix that becomes one of the greatest love stories in the series.

    Because honestly, I don’t have any idea what they’re talking about.

  21. pualo
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion and Shae is a huge love story (although very non traditional), and I think is the main one they are talking about.

  22. Chrysee
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Oh, I think I just got it. R+L=J info perhaps? the Reeds tell Bran that story maybe? I don’t think it really happens in book two, and it would be one scene rather than a story arc, but it sure would be something fans would look forward to and that seems to be what they’re hinting at.

  23. Lossoth
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    My guess is they’re going to cut Ser Courtney Penrose. Renly’s assassination will take place at Storm’s End, with Davos taking Melisandre under the seawall. And the shadow come up from the basement. The only trick will be getting Catelyn and Brienne out of a castle under siege, but I’m sure they’ll manage something, an unguarded sally port or something.

  24. ND
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    It makes sense to cut out some elements of CoK and include scenes from SoS, especially if D&D fear that SoS would have to be cut into 2 seasons. If that’s the case, why not include some SoS material in season 2? They can’t abandon the likes of Jaime, Robb, and Jon because they don’t appear as much in CoK, the TV audience will not be happy. If this means a Robb-Jenye romance, or a Jon-Ygritte romance next season, that’s not a big issue, and neither is the Blackfish although in Feast For Crows when he is holding Riverrun, they will have to find somebody to take his place.

  25. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34, Jenny was complaining earlier in the interview that the only good love story of season one (Dany & Drogo) is now no longer. It seems based on David’s comment he is reassuring her that another “big” love story will be coming in season two.

  26. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Ana Carolina S.,

    It’s only sick if certain shippers’ wishes come true. As it is he’s just a sad/angry dude with a bit of an infatuation with a pretty girl who’s too young for him, and she’s done nothing more than a little fantasising (unless her faulty memory of the kiss was actually a mistake in the narrative, which seems unlikely). Since she refused to go with him after the Battle of the Blackwater without anything untoward actually happening, I’m filing it under fucked up things that happened in the past.

  27. Selyse
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Jeyne was such a hideous character in the books, I would not mind seeing if they can get something better out of her…

  28. Whiskeyjack
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    I am with D and D on this one. Stay with the main characters, which I consider to be the Starks, Lannisters and Dany… maybe Renly/Stannis. Honestly if we never meet a character from Dorne I would be happy.

  29. bondirotta
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    YES! No NBA season means no play-offs in 2012 to blight the second season Sundays.

  30. burth
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    You never know, someone might try to make an honest woman out of Ros :)

    And on the matter of the blackfish… why does he have such a large (or just very vocal?) following? I thought I might have missed something on my previous reads of the books, but when I was rereading in preparation for ADWD I paid special notice to him, and he only appears in a couple of chapters, doing mostly unimportant stuff (also he is rude to Jaime, how dare he!)… well, to each his own, I guess, I also never saw what’s supposed to be so cool about the Tower of Joy flashbacks/dreams :D

  31. Blackfish Blues
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Guys, thanks for posting the actual text. To me it’s obvious they talk about the FIRST book and Season ONE, re: The Blackfish.

    OK, no, it’s not obvious and I’ll keep worrying my heart away, but at least now that I know the context of those vague voices that for me first surfaced on Twitter, I feel ever so slightly better. I like to look at the enemy in the eye.

    Which, with these people, is awfully hard. As I’ve said somewhere else, beside the actual grief at the possible cutting (and thus reduced importance in the books and even earlier death) of my favourite character, I’m going out of my mind with confusion.

    Very simply: if they cut the Blackfish (and they have to know already if they did), why not just say it?

  32. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Semi-related to the thread, I was toying with season 2 and beyond storylines for each character. Assuming they split ASOS into two (or 1.5 seasons) I think Jon’s storyline would break down thusly (spoilers galore obvs):

    Season 2 – Ranging beyond the wall, ending with him joining wildlings
    Season 3 – Traveling with wildlings, falling in love with Ygritte, ending with Ygritte dying in his arms
    Season 4 – Taking command of the Wall, epic battle, ending with him becoming Lord Commander
    Season 5 and beyond – whatever happens in Dance, Winds, and Dream

    Of all the storylines I did, his worked out into nearly perfect arcs. Assuming D&D have already done the same thing I did, I can’t see them breaking it out any other way.

  33. dizzy_34
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Well in that case I’m going to assume the Robb Stark exploits are going to heavily featured. I’d be all for that instead of Ros the ubiquitous however I’m sure there’s an Alayaya switch coming regarding that character.

  34. Mr. Wu
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Alas, poor Blackfish! We knew him, WiC.

    If they plan on doing one season for A Storm of Swords in 2013, I think it would be a good idea to move a few elements of ASoS to the 2nd season, including Robb/Jeyne, Jaime’s release up through maybe getting his hand cut off, and the first battle between the Night’s Watch and the Others/White Walkers. Maybe Jon’s first meeting with Mance, and some of Dany’s conquering?

  35. GrzebykK
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    What about Dany-Jorah thing?
    In the book it was quick, but why not to make it longer in the series to enrich the eastern thread?

  36. Jay
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Bran and Meera? :P I pull that face, though, but I’m actually only halfway through aSoS, so that could be expanded on and I just haven’t read it yet. I doubt it, though.

    In seriousness, possibly Jon and Ygritte. D&D have said that they intend to push some aSoS stuff forward, like they did with aCoK this season. Failing that, Robb and Jeyne would be my next guess. But JD has a point, there are a fair few love stories in aCoK.

  37. Epic the marvvvelous
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    I am expecting to see a lot more of that Jorah and Dany chemistry. It positively sparked in the last few episodes.

  38. dizzy_34
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Why bother with that? Fabio is going to do his back breaking faux scripts right? Get to work Fabio! :)

  39. daveb
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    bondirotta: YES! No NBA season means no play-offs in 2012 to blight the second season Sundays.

    Likely no football either. Which isn’t an issue since the NFL would conclude before Game of Thrones Season 2 airs, but this creates a scenario where hockey and baseball are the only acts in town. NHL Playoffs in April-May-June are going to be a hot ticket.

    There’s just always gonna be SOMETHING competing.

  40. HandmaidenofDany
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    I am all for expanding some of the book relationships that happen in the background. I actually think the Robb/Jeyne relationship should be expanded because I never really got a sense of why it happened. Robb just didnt’ seem like the type to do something that stupid. The way Robb describes what happened left a bad taste in my mouth.

  41. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34, I’m sure he will. He already has done a quick breakdown of the whole book, but I suspect he will do episode-specific ones soon.

    But I was curious about the long-term and if they were to shuffle storylines from other books into different seasons what that might look like. I may do a post on it at some point, if I ever get it to a point where I’ve found logical season arcs for each character that don’t disrupt the established timeline.

  42. Anvil
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Why are some people fantasizing about moving parts from book 3 in season 2? They have already lots of stuff to cover. Remember, book 2 isn’t really shorter than the first even if some early parts can be straightend out. But after they’ve already rushed trough the events of the first book, there is no way they can put larger parts of the 3rd book in the already overflowing storyline of the 2nd season, especially if they’re going for more screentime with Robb and Jaime. I don’t want this show to become superficial like most book adaptions.

  43. Drfunk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I think they need to re-organize and shove at least 25% of the book 3 storyline into season 2. The epic finale of season two will be the blackwater, maybe not as epic as perenor fields but it should be the same length wise (as it’s a sacking of a city). So shoving the turning point of jon defecting to the wildlings would be too much stuff to put in the finale. My thinking is that if they moved up that storyline to epi 7~9 , and 9′s cliffhanger being that scene it would work well. Book 3 is going to be more stuff than 1 and 2 combined and then some. Anything they can shed into 2 and hopefully get rid of 95% of the “Irrelevant” sexposition or Ros would be a major improvement as it is.

  44. Drfunk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Anvil,

    A lot of the minor character have been cut from season 1, so that material is already gone from book2. From a plot standpoint it’s about the same as book 1 (with those cuts being made already), so instead of adding more random fillers, putting in relevant plot scenes from book 3 (at least introducing it) wouldn’t be so bad.

  45. Jenny
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    SanSan!!!

    A “Love Story” in a way which is loved by very very many fans.
    Not as a romantic thing but for its dynamics.
    Don’t shoot the messenger.

    They’d totally screw the element of surprise if we saw Jeyne…

  46. Mike G
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Stuff has to be cut and moved around. You don’t want people who have no idea who the minor characters are getting overwhelmed. Blackfish I love him, but Cut him, Roose and Ramsey Boolton, Combine em. If Benjen has no purpose in the later books him and Halfhand can be combined as well. There are more and bigger names as well that can get the ax. The Frey kids that go to Winterfell cut them too. The GreyJoy uncles..Euron and Victorian can combine. I am sure there are more if i thought about it.

  47. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    The Battle of the Blackwater doesn’t result in the city being sacked. Stannis’s forces aren’t even able to lay siege to it or force a breach; it was a pretty decisive victory for the defenders.

  48. HandmaidenofDany
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Personally, I hope to see a lot of Arya.

  49. Josh Parker
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Also moving stuff up from Season Three could have more scenes with Stannis/Davos. We all know they’re gonna be regulars.

  50. Degausser
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    maybe if jaime is getting released from riverrun early, we’ll get to see that jaime/brienne relationship :) *gets ready for haters*

  51. shadallion
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Other than meet Craster and then Ygritte, Jon Snow doesn’t do much in book 2 until the very end with Qhorin.

    My guess is that they’ll have the Night’s Watch encounter some White Walkers earlier. Not a big pitched battle, but an encounter.

    I think the main focus of this season should be:

    -Tyrion governing King’s landing and playing the Game of Thrones vs. Cersei, Joffrey and Littlefinger.

    -Arya in the Riverlands

    -Theon in the Iron Islands and then Winterfell

    -Dany in the desert and Qarth

    -Stannis and Renly

    -Jon in the wilderness of the north

    In that order. The material in “A Clash of Kings”, while an awesome read, is probably a lot harder to translate to the screen that the much more compact, tidy “A Game of Thrones”.

  52. dizzy_34
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Just a quick question regarding Dance (don’t worry no spoilers, but damn those people they’re everywhere). How soon after it’s release are you planing a post for it if in fact you are going to do a post for it?

  53. Drfunk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    I know that. I meant the actual scene is suppose to be drawn out “like a sacking of a city”. Meaning they can’t get away with a 1 min ‘battle’ clip. It needs to be pretty much half the episode.

  54. HandmaidenofDany
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    No way can they afford to do it. I could see 15 to 20 minutes at the MOST for the battle.

  55. Anvil
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk:
    Anvil,

    A lot of the minor character have been cut from season 1, so that material is already gone from book2. From a plot standpoint it’s about the same as book 1 (with those cuts being made already), so instead of adding more random fillers, putting in relevant plot scenes from book 3 (at least introducing it) wouldn’t be so bad.

    Apart from the absence of the Tullys and some flashbacks nothing much else were cut iirc and yeah, as I said some slow moving things can be straighend out (eyeing on some Hoster Tully grieving sessions and Kings Landing intrigue) but if you shuffle a lot of things around there will be a mess which may have larger implications on a lot (more) future events.

    Example: Freeing Jaime to the point of chopping his hand off in the latter half of season 2 is not only a bad decision in the overall dramaturgically structure of the season, he’ll have a lot less to do in season 3. So voices are going to cry out for more Jaime in season 3. And then what? Moving stuff from book 4 forward? And after that?

    Yeah, I’m overdramatising things and I have nothing against some minor changes, but larger chunks should stay where they supposed to be or there will be some sort of meereenese knot at some point in the future.

  56. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34, not sure yet. I’ll give it a few days, probably. Long enough for me to have finished reading it, so I can moderate the comments without fear of spoilers (although with this early leak I may end up getting stuff spoiled for me before then anyway :/ ).

  57. digtastik
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    I’m curious how they will handle Dany’s arc. Not much for her in Clash. We’ve already seen how they moved Jaime’s sole appearance in book 2 into the first season. Jon doesn’t do much either. I think we can expect many more shuffles when it comes to the show to give the actors screen time so that the viewing crowd still gets what they want. We’ll see a lot of Ty, Robb, Stannis, Arya, and the KL crew but everyone will need to be addressed. It will be fun seeing how they go about it.

  58. sjwenings
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Mike G: If Benjen has no purpose in the later books him and Halfhand can be combined as well.

    Oooh.. thats an exellent idea! Though i suppose he does have quite a bit of purpose still.

  59. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    Do you mean siege? I don’t know why you’d compare an unsuccessful assault on a city to a sacking. The duration of the battle on screen is completely unrelated to anything to with any sacking, as far as I can see.

    ::edit::

    Was Minas Tirith sacked in LotR? It’s been that long since I read or watched it, I don’t recall. I thought they maybe broke through the outer defences before the Ringwraith was taken down and the attackers routed…

  60. Stacia
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    I’m so afraid that Arya’s part is going to be cut so that they can add in a Robb/Jeyne love story. If that happens, I’m going to be pissed off.

    Other than building Robb up for what happens in Book 3, I don’t see the point of heavily featuring Robb/Jeyne unless there is a required amount of nudity to keep HBO happy.

  61. The Winter Rose
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    OMG, I hope the love story stuff will be flashback-ness with R & L <3
    *insert dreamy fangirl sigh here*

  62. Josh Parker
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    No to combining the Boltons. There is no way to have Bolton at both Harrenhal and Winterfell.

  63. Mr. Wu
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Stacia:
    I’m so afraid that Arya’s part is going to be cut so that they can add in a Robb/Jeyne love story.If that happens, I’m going to bepissed off.

    I’m pretty sure HBO, D&D, and everyone else behind the show is well aware that Arya was wildly popular among book fans and newbies alike this season. I wouldn’t stress too much about that.

  64. dizzy_34
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    It’s like the “Snape kills Dumbledor” people out there. So good luck.

  65. Mirri Maz
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Jay,

    Don’t be silly it’s Bran and Jojen

    i think they will expand Robb and Jeyne which is cool in my opinion, Richard Madden was pretty awesome as Robb and the whole relation with Jayne is pretty intresting (how she seduced him and the possibility of magic being involved).

    Personally i’m just going to start the show as something independent from the books, it will make the experience more fun and i’ll always have the original to fall back onto.

  66. Astalnar
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Lovestory about Jon and Yigritte. They could actualy show bits of Renly and Margery.
    Jeyne and Robb meet in the 3rd book, so it is not possible.

    I am realy angry and disapointed that they sacrificed Blackfish to insert scenes with ther Mary Sue of a Roz. All scenes with Roz were so unnecesery that it is quite painfull kowing we lost great character such as Blackfish on account of Roz.

  67. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Stacia,

    They won’t cut Arya. They’ve got a talented actor who’s a fan favourite, so she’ll defintiely be in there.

    That said, she probably won’t have as much screen time as S1, but we’ll get the important bits.

    Gods, I can’t remember when things happen now. Does she get to Harrenhal in aCoK?

    I hope we see more of Ser Gregor. In S1 we missed out on his presence at the Green Fork, so hopefully we get to see him when his men capture Arya & co.

    I forget which book it is when we get the story of Gregor raping the tavernkeeper’s daughter, but the event itself must have happened circa late book 1 or early book 2. I wonder if that’ll make it in.

  68. digtastik
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    I’m voting for a When Hodor Met Osha.

  69. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    I dunno about that, I really wanna see the Red Viper! The rest though, not so much.

  70. Johan Sporre
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    A lot of stuff happens to Arya in ACoK. Yes, she gets to Harrenhal, and spends several chapters there. By the end of the book she’s leaving the castle in the company of Gendry and Hot Pie.

    Josh Parker,
    Does Roose have to be in Harrenhal? Couldn’t the Goat do it himself with the aid of some Northmen?

  71. Jenny
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Hey – in the mobile version of this page all spoilers are shown bold.
    Just sayin’

  72. paulgude
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    I prefer it bolded to having blacked-out text that you can’t highlight to read, which is what it used to be for me.

  73. Shinyteapot
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    A possibility (and I have no idea if it’s true or not) that would make you happy:

    Maybe Blackfish becomes a more prominent character in ADWD. In which case D&D might wait a while to bring him in, so they can cast someone particularly good. But mentioning this would be a spoiler, so they don’t.

    There’s a hope you can hold onto until the 12th anyway :)

  74. aeh
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    I always thought that Jaime really started to warm to Brienne and was always waiting for them to have some kind of strange love story. Maybe wishful thinking

  75. Astalnar
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    Event with Gregor raping that poor taverngirl is well past us. It happened right after the tourney. We found out about it in third book.

  76. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    I think I have a significant problem with the removal of the Blackfish – maybe I have read this wrong (which happens from time to time) but it’s my recollection that at the end of Feast, the Blackfish has escaped Riverrun. Now, GRRM would not have made that happen unless there were something significant for him to do once escaped. They may combine the Tully brothers into one and accomplish the same end but since I don’t know how the story ends I don’t see how that might effect the long term story. The producers have probably already discussed the future of all these characters with GRRM but that’s disheartening too if they have learned that the Blackfish meets an insignificant end since I WANT the Blackfish to do something badass. (My guess is that he might end up with a Greyjoy).

    My 2 cents, I’m probably misremembering that the Blackfish dies in book 2 or something…

  77. shadallion
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Don’t understand the Blackfish obsession. He is not integral to any major plot line! He just has a little verbal repartee with Jaime and earlier he and Robb together explain to Edmure why he is a failure of a military strategist. Other than that, he’s “off screen” the entire time.

  78. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    You’re correct; Brynden escapes Riverun when Edmure surrenders to Jaime, going for a swim out the river gate. I hope he’s escaped for a badass reason too; it’d be some GRRM style bullshit for him to reappear in book 5 as a drowned corpse at Saltpans or whatever :P

  79. Steve Reynolds
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    I can’t see how they can follow the book and introduce 5 new Westerosi castles, Riverrun, Harrenhal, Pyke, Dragonstone and Storm’s End, let alone add another one in if they are going to follow Robb’s romance, or show anything of the Greyjoy invasion and Torren’s square. Even mentioning these places if they are not seen will be confusing. How do the designers make 3 different sea castles visually distinct for the viewers? Perhaps they’ll drop Storm’s End?

    I was thinking they’d drop Ser Amory Lorch and give his villainy to the Mountain.

    I’m also wondering if Tywin will get some screen time in season 2.

  80. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    shadallion,

    The Blackfish is popular because he’s a mysterious badass.

    He’s the most competent Tully, he’s a bit of an outcast, and he’s Robb’s go-to guy when he needs something done right.

    Also some people speculate he’s gay, which always results in a boost in popularity, if only due to the arguments that ensue :B

  81. Eric Bigpicture
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    shadallion,

    Amen to that.

  82. shadallion
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Steve Reynolds,

    The concern about the many new castles is legit, but I think the CGI team proved that they can do a good job of creating visually satisfying shots of the castles in season one (the Twins, the Eyrie, King’s Landing).

    As long as they keep showing the new locations on the opening-credit maps, giving us a good “from a distance” shot of the outside of the castles, and perhaps even more HBO.com interactive stuff to back it up, I think that it will be enough for the new viewer to understand.

    Fortunately, the inside of most castles look pretty much the same.

  83. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    bondirotta:
    YES! No NBA season means no play-offs in 2012 to blight the second season Sundays.

    what a dickhole comment, millions of fans are getting screwed and you are cheering for a few extra viewers and media-attention?

    Anyways, it’s way too early for me to start speculating what will happen in season 2. Just bring me ADWD and all the castingannouncements first!

  84. paulgude
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Astalnar,

    Ros has been blamed for the lack of direwolf appearances, the cutting of favorite scenes, and now the removal of the Blackfish.

    The plain fact is that the exposition scenes everyone hates weren’t put in there to give Ros something to do. Ros was added to those scenes as an attempt to make them more palatable for people who already know what’s going on. Obviously it didn’t work for some viewers, but at least it gives them a place to focus their ire. If not for Ros, you’d have to spread your anger over wasted moments among a bevy of nameless camp followers, serving girls, etc.

    On another note:

    Jeyne and Robb meet during the events of ACoK. We don’t find out about it as readers until Catelyn’s POV in ASoS, but it’s already happened.

  85. Ed
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Chrysee:

    Blackfish… He’s awesome in the books, but I think I’m much more open to changes in the series than most.

    Why do you say that? I don’t understand all the Blackfish love. He’s a somewhat interesting guy who makes a few appearances in the books. Nothing more.

    Not knocking ya, just curious why you (and some others) dig him so much.

    EDIT: Just read GaR’s comments a few posts above…

  86. shadallion
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Whiskeyjack,

    I agree about Dorne, other than the Red Viper. That guy and his battle with the ********* has to be there.

    The details of Prince Doran, the Sandsnakes, Myrcella, etc….those can all be related by a raven’s message.

    Sorry, still don’t know how to hide spoiler-text.

  87. DH87
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    OT, but it looks as though Camelot has bought the farm. Starz isn’t renewing for a second season, citing production problems.

  88. Lord Willum
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Maybe it’s me being overly optimistic, but I like the implications inherent in:

    ‘But the truth is there are so many new characters coming in, so that could be confusing. Many more than characters who die in the first season. And that keeps happening, each season there are new characters coming in’

    OK, so its reaching a little, but if they’re thinking about this problem as an ongoing concern, might be they’ve received strong votes of confidence from the HBO higher ups, if not full approval of further seasons

    Also (as mid-reread through ASoIaF in advance of DwD) wondering what changes will be made regarding Tyrion at the end of Season 2 – he won’t be getting his nose chopped off, that’s for sure, if he does enter battle, facial scar at worst I reckon, but given the Green Fork sidestep, will it be plausible for him to be in battle at all?

  89. shadallion
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Roz has a world-class rack and I was never sad to see them in all their splendor.

  90. Steve Reynolds
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    He has a cool nickname and his reputation is such that it’s like calling out ‘Omar’s comin!’

  91. Steve Reynolds
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    shadallion,

    I also like the idea of using her to represent the ‘little bird’ level of spydom – it’ll be all the more painful when something awful happens to her as the pieces move on the board.

  92. Stacia
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    I’m afraid that Arya’s part is going to get cut to a few scenes and appear in only a limited number of episodes.

    - Episode 1 – short set up of Arya traveling with Yoren and the others then getting stopped by the Goldcloaks after Gendry.

    - Probably a few episodes later, they catch up with them. Yoren is killed, Arya is on the run with Hot Pie, Gendry and Lommy. They’re captured by Gregor Clegane.

    - Next episode, set-up Arya at Harrenhal, use her as a way to set-up what’s going on there with the Lannisters.

    - Then enters Jaqen H’ghar and the murders. Weasel soup

    - Arya learns of Bran and Rickon’s deaths and escapes

    They can probably reduce all of Arya’s role down to a few scenes in 5 episodes, unless they want to heavily feature her.

    With everything else happening in ACoK, the characters that they want to add scenes for (likely more of Renley and Loras and more with Margery Tyrell with Natalie Dormer playing her), and since the producers want to heavily feature Jaime and Robb and are adding parts with them or moving parts from other books, something’s going to get cut. It’s likely not going to be the Greyjoys or Stannis, especially if they intend to cast well-known actors that don’t want bit parts.

    Likely to get cut are Arya and Bran, since it’s difficult, time consuming and expensive to work with child actors due to the filming rules, requirements for guardians and tutors on set. Also because those characters are going to require additional locations and are cut-off from the rest of the “action”.

  93. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Lord Willum,

    Pure speculation, but I’d expect him to still be betrayed in the battle by… Ser Mandon Moore? Or was it Ser Meryn Trant? An M- Kingsguard knight anyway. But he’ll probably just be knocked senseless and then half drowned (in addition to the other (non-facial) wound/s he sustains).

  94. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Stacia,

    That’d be enough to keep me happy. The Harrenhal stuff could fill up a few scenes though; a fair bit goes on there.

  95. EvilPicnic
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    When he says ‘season of the love story’, my guess is that he doesn’t mean one ‘love story’ in particular, but that love could be a central theme of the next season.

    Which could encompass Tyrion&Shae, Robb&Jeyne, Brienne’s love of Renly, Sandor’s lust for Sansa, Jon first meeting Ygritte, Sam first meeting Gilly, Cat’s love for her children, Dany’s love for her people etc. That’s some good material to play with around a central theme of ‘love’.

  96. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Ok, I’ll join in.

    People not understanding the Blackfish love? This is GRRM, he can write 2 sentences about a character and make that guy a living legend in those 2 sentences (Shitmouth anyone?). I love the Blackfish, every page he’s on gets my heart pumping with excitement. For all you not getting it and want to cut him I suggest you re-read BlackfishBlues’ comment she repeated a few times a couple of threads back. She said it way better than I can.

    People hating on Roz, Gude said it right. It may feel like she stole scenes you wanted to see, but those scenes were already gone before they expanded her role. People think we would have seen more direwolves if she wasn’t in? We’d probably just have some more clunky expositiontalk without those beautiful boobs.

    People wanting to cut Doran and the Sandsnakes or put that story in Raven’s letter: that story is going to blow up in later books. You need to introduce them before it looks like the show just magically pulls a bunny out of a hat. Maybe leave that oaf of an Oakheart out, but that’s it (but probably there are people who love him like I love the Blackfish).

    Edit: And Dorne is so much cooler than the Reach, I hope every single Tyrell get’s hanged by the hands of some feisty Sandsnake.

  97. Stacia
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    I guess what really pissed me off reading the books was that I felt like far too many irrelevant other characters were added. I started reading because I was interested in the Stark kids and I felt as the series went along, all of them became irrelevant.

    It’s sort of as if the Harry Potter books stopped being about Harry and started focusing on a dozen other characters and Harry only occasionally appeared.

    While I like that the producers are saying they want focus on specific characters that they’ve built up in Season 1- like Robb and Jaime, but looking at ACoK, if they’re going to zero in on central characters, then the writing is on the wall that the cuts are going to include Arya, Bran and likely Jon as well.

    Then looking ahead at Season 3, with more of Arya’s wanderings, I could see her role being cut even further then.

    They have a real find with Maisie Williams and the chance to do something different with a character like Arya than likely using tired cliches with romance storylines.

  98. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    I don’t much like Oakheart, but it’s nice to see him bumbling around like a dickhead and then commiting heroic suicide by charging a bunch of crossbow bolts and a dude with a big fuckin’ axe.

  99. Pamoya
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Astalnar: Jeyne and Robb meet in the 3rd book, so it is not possible.

    We don’t hear or see it until Catelyn finds out in book 3, but Jeyne and Robb definitely meet and get married during book 2. Before Arya escapes Harrenhal, she runs into one of the little Frey boys, who is promised to a princess–presumably Arya, though neither of them know it–and he becomes angry when he finds out the Frey family has been dishonored and he won’t be marrying a princess after all. That is in ACOK 65, Arya 10. http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/102/065/index.html

    For love stories, I am hoping to see some Jeyne and Robb, some Jorah and Dany (ending with her rejecting him, of course, but no reason they can’t draw that out longer before ending it), a little bit of twisted evil Melisandre/Stannis, and some of the triangular relationship with Loras/Renly/Margaery.

  100. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    shadallion: Sorry, still don’t know how to hide spoiler-text.

    highlight your spoilertext and click the spoilerbutton.

  101. Steve Reynolds
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    The Dornes are important to the Lannister power plotline - supporting Myrcella over Tommen as the rightful ruler – and we don’t know how important they’ll be to Dany’s story; as others have pointed out in the past, she’s more likely to have them as an ally than any other of the original 7 kingdoms.

    The Wire introduced the city council by inference and with a few short scenes in earlier seasons before it became more central in seasons 3-5, and introduced the School and the Paper in successive seasons as well. It’s possible to bring in whole new plotlines and locations and castmembers and still be great.

    I’m still holding out for a departure from the season per book restriction beyond season 2, so that we can spend a bit more screen time with characters we love, and still introduce the new stuff from the books

  102. morbiczer
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    (Deleted my post, since i forgot about the spoiler policy here.)

  103. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    jup, I liked that story too. But if you have to cut something there, maybe cut him and just cast one Sandsnake. You really don’t have to cast alot of people in Dorne for book 4, probably only Hotah, Doran, Arianne, Oakheart and one Sandsnake

    Now that we’re talking later seasons: do you think they will recast Tommen and Myrcella later on?

  104. melkathi
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    *sniff*
    First Dondarrion doesn”t get the space he deserves in the books, now he’ll get cut in the series as well.
    *sniff*

    I want a Beric Dondarrion mini – series!

  105. Felagund
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    Well, actually that’s what an ordinary writer would do. “He escaped, so it’s clear, he will have some part later on!”. But let’s not forget, that GRRM is not an ordinary writer. ;)

  106. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Steve Reynolds,

    I 100% agree with you on the slow introduction of Dorne, a few scenes in a couple of episodes will definately trigger the interest of viewers. It’s like you said in the Wire and the Sopranos where people walked in the background for a season and then suddenly got to carry entire episodes later on.

  107. Ed
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Chrysee:
    Littlefinger and Varys sure had a budding romance in season one, what with all their mutual admiration and gash banter.

    PPpffffftttttttt!!! LOL!!!!

  108. Andorod
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    They cut the Blackfish and Lord Hoster, who are major characters, but they add useless characters like Ros. It doens’t make any sense.

  109. Ed
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Nah, they’ve got a couple of real Gems in those two little actors and they know it. I would expect lots of Bran & Arya (especially Arya).

    Stacia:

    Likely to get cut are Arya and Bran, since it’s difficult, time consuming and expensive to work with child actors due to the filming rules, requirements for guardians and tutors on set. Also because those characters are going to require additional locations and are cut-off from the rest of the “action”.

  110. Ed
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Andorod:
    They cut the Blackfish and Lord Hoster, who are major characters, but they add useless characters like Ros. It doens’t make any sense.

    Maybe it’s just a mistake. You’ve made them before.

    Maybe they thought it’d be a “neat” thing to add her in, and she’ll have this cool little cult following aaaaaaand it didn’t work out. (shrug) Some things work better than others.

    Swing and a miss… no big deal.

  111. Gina
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    It’s not like they can’t have the Blackfish show up for AFFC. He’s not a major character by any stretch.

  112. saluk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Even then, it’s not likely they cut Blackfish to make room for Ros, or cut any of the others things people wanted in that place for that purpose. Each thing that is cut is cut for a specific reason, and why limited time is certainly a factor, that limited time doesn’t solely lay on Ros’ head.

    I don’t think Dorne is going to be cut guys. A lot of it maybe, but not altogether.

  113. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Good question. With Myrcella it’ll depend on Aimee… I’ve forgotten her name… on the current actor’s ability. She was originally cast as an extra for the pilot, but managed to hold onto the role, so hopefully she’s good enough to hang around. I don’t know what’ll happen with Tommen. I don’t think he’ll have to do anything interesting until season 4ish (after Joffrey’s death, anyway). We’ve seen so little of him that a recast shouldn’t be too difficult to pull off.

    As for cutting Oakheart… someone needs to follow Myrcella around and then somehow lose her (and half her face). It makes sense for that someone to be a KG knight, though they could maybe play more of a background role; most of what happens to Myrcella before Oakheart’s death can probably be skipped, and Oakheart’s little love story won’t exactly be missed… by me, anyway.

  114. Charles
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    The love story is going to be Robb and Jeyne. Since season one ended, i knew they were going to try and keep certain characters that don’t appear as much in book two on screen, namely Robb and Jaime.

    There’s really no other ‘love story’ that they can do at this point in the season. Jon’s stuff is fro season 3, and i think they brought that up in response to someone expressing their disapointment at not having the Drogo-Dani relationship for next year, so there’s really one thing that can replace that at this point, and it solves their issues with having Robb off-screen.

    My main concern is that they are going to cut the Blackfish. I love that character, but even then i could survive him being cut and i understand why he would–the probablem is that i think Martin isn’t done with the Blackfish in the novels, and them cutting him might comeback to bite them in the ass at the end.

  115. Steel_Wind
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    OT, but it looks as though Camelot has bought the farm. Starz isn’t renewing for a second season, citing production problems.

    Nothing off topic about that! Joseph Fiennes is available? Eva Green, too? Hell, even Jamie Campbell Bower would be fine in the right role.

    But Fiennes being available is a big deal. He’d make a great Stannis. I’d prefer Eccleston, (or Ralph Fiennes, even) but still… Joe Fiennes would do nicely.

    I expect the roles have been cast and it’s all about “i” dotting and “t” crossing at this point but, you never know.

  116. paulgude
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    saluk,

    Exactly. If you line up all the things people say were cut to make room for scenes with Ros in them, you soon realize how long they actually aren’t. And again, remove Ros and a lot of those exposition scenes would still be there.

  117. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    yeah, I think they’ll go for the recast, nobody will remember those kids from the second episode or just sitting somewhere in the background in others. (BTW, you forgot to blacken a major spoiler in your post.)

    I also think they’ll have an extra play Oakheart, or maybe in the style how Trant is now portrayed. Just a couple of sentences here and there.

  118. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Oh hells. Spoiler blackened.

    Yeah, I could see Oakheart as a featured extra or whatever. It’d heap all the expository responsibilities onto Arianne, I suppose. My reread is behind schedule, and it’s been a long time now since I last read Feast so my memory is a bit fuzzy.

  119. Knurk
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    they could hire a pornactor for Oakheart, that’s all sexposition coming from GRRM’s own pen right there.

  120. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Oh, even better: Ros can take over his role.

  121. Mimsy
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Just adding to the romance:
    It’s quite open to interpretation, but I kind of got a teen crush kind of vibe from some of the Gendry / Arya material

  122. Bran
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    if they had such an aversion of cutting storylines and characters, how about, I dunno, ask for more than 10 damn episodes? D and D are the ones who wanted to go w/ 10 eps. If they’re gonna f up this thing, I just as soon see it end now

  123. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Bran,

    You’ll never open your third eye with that kind of attitude.

  124. tysnow
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Stacia,

    Learn to use your spoilers tag more, Stacia, common sense should tell you most of what you posted were spoilers.

  125. Mimsy
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and xaro xhoan daxos could be played on screen with a romantic sentiment as well

  126. Valorna
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    I think we don’t wait book 2, but the true timeline. Some jounreys can be cut a little.

    For the episode 1:
    (East) Dany/Jorah/Dragons/khalasar follow the Red Star and cross the desert. A handmaiden dies. She sends Rhakkaro across the desert to find a city.
    (North) Jon and the Night Watch meet Craster. They hear a strange story about Craster’s babies and the White Walkers…
    (War-Stark) Robb/Catelyn/armies make them entrance in Riverrun. Meeting with Lord Tully and Edmure. They put Jaime in prison.
    (War-Lannister) Tywin’s Army takes Harrenhal. He waits Robb’s moving troop.
    (Place of power) Birthday/tourney of Joffrey. Sansa saves Dontos’ life.
    (North) Gilly meets Jon/Samwell and needs to be rescue. They say NO.
    (Place of power) Tyrion becomes the Hand of Joffrey. Cersei is not happy of this decision. She wants Jaime coming back to her. Tyrion hides Shae but the Spider finds her. “Alliance” between them.
    (War-Stark) The Stark needs a new alliance. Robb sends her mother to South and make a strong bond with Baratheon brothers, and he send Theon to his father.
    (War-others) Arya/Gendry/Yoren find trouble on the kingsroad. Yoren dies. Arya saves prisoners.
    (East) Rhakkaro is coming back with 3 strange people. They are impressed by the dragons.
    End.

    Episode 2

    (North) Jon makes strange dreams about Ghost and wildlings. Ghost isn’t there.
    (War-others) Gregor finds Arya/Gendry.
    (Place of power) Tyrion gets to defend Kings’landing. He begins to play with Pycelle/littlefinger. Tyrion poisons Cersei.
    (North) Bran Stark meets Jojen and Meera Reed. They talk about wolves dreams.
    (Place of power) Dontos thanks Sansa to saved him. He say to Sansa he will rescue her…
    (War-others) Gregor lets Arya in Harrenhal, into the lion’s den. Jaquen thanks her to saved him. (parallel with Sansa storyline)
    (Place of power) Tyrion sends the Ned Stark bones to Riverrun with a rescuer team to deliver his brother. Sansa has first blood moon. Joffrey wants to marry her and makes mad babies.
    (East) Daenerys comes to city of Quarth. Dany says she needs help to conquer Westeros. Quaithe says Dany must be prudent.
    (War-Baratheon) In Dragonstrone : Stannis, Melisandre, Selyse, Davos, Maester Cressen their first meeting with viewers. Stannis wants to make the true about incest thing. Stannis and Renly are not a good relationship. Melisandre and her prophecy. She suggest to kill Renly. Cressen wants to stop her but dies. The magic and influence of Melisandre is very strong. Davos is defiant.

    Episode 3

    (East) Xaro Xaon Daxos proposes marriage to Dany. But Jorah, little jealous, knows that the man wants to have one of her dragon in fact.
    (North) New wolves dreams for Jon. He finds the trace of Ghost with some strange weapons.
    (Embassy-Stark/Baratheon) Tourney of Renly. Brienne matches Loras. Brienne becomes the new kingsguard of Renly. She is in love with him. But where is Ser Barristan ? Cate comes to making peace. Renly talk to her about Ned who denies his offer.
    (North) Bran seems to act more and more like a wolf than a boy. After Luwin remonstrance, Jojen and him talk again.
    (Council Lannister) Cersei gets the letters about the incest. She is not very happy. She wants her father back to protect the city. She finds the plan of Tyrion (Pycelle talked to her about – he is the spy) about sending Myrcella to Martell. Cersei doesn’t want that. But the council says that will be better to protect the princess and make a good alliance.
    (Embassy – Lannister/Stark) Robb gets the bones of his father. In the night, Jaime tries to flee but without succes.
    (Embassy- Stark/Baratheon) Cate meets Lady Margaery Tyrell at feast. Brienne isn’t very good in the situation. Cate has pity and talks to her about her motivations to become a lady-knighted. Renly shows to Catelyn his very strong army.
    (North) Commandant Mormont and Jon talk about the glass weapons. Sam reveals that weapons have a strong power against White Walkers. So they will use it.
    (Council Tyrell) Margaery is the clever one. She finds Renly with her brother. Maybe the offer of Catelyn is good, Renly would talk about that with Stannis too. What’s about the heir of Renly ? If he wants the war he needs to be a heir if… but the lovely Loras say that till he’s in live, no one will touch Renly (double sense).
    (East) No one wants to help Dany. But maybe some wizards would like to…

    My suggestions for 4th and 5th episodes:
    Episode 4 is about Greyjoy stuff (meeting Asha and Balon), the magic around Dany (first part), and the dark magic of Melisandre against Renly (shadow birth). Cate and Brienne flee. Loras kills everyone, he finds the reason in the arms of his sister. Loras puts in the ground his lover, he promises to kill Brienne for this murder. Tyrion arrests Pycelle, and discovers the true about the pillage of Kings landing, and the Lancel’s relationship with Cersei. Trouble in the north called Ramsey Snow, Bran needs to resolve it. Robb talks about war to take golden mines of Lannister. He can also talk with Jaime about the last event, he knows about why Jaime pushed Bran out of the window after the letter of Stannis about the incest. No night watch.

    Episode 5 : Ramsay Snow has arrested. Jojen averts Bran : this man will kill him and Rickon.
    People in Kings landing are hungry (because all of they eat comes from the Reach but Tyrell stops the export), they are very irritated too. Joffrey has not pity. Sansa meets Dontos a lot in the Garden. She wants to be rescued NOW, because Joffrey wants to marry her.
    Robb wins battles so Joffrey is turn on mad king and wants to beat Sansa. Knights beat her. Tyrion saves her. The marriage is broken.
    Arya is punished at Harrenhal. She wants to flee. She asks to Jaquen to help her. She becomes the Ghost of Harrenhal.
    Second part of magic around Dany. Drogon fights to deliver her. They go away but sorcerers want to kill her. She is saved by a old et mysterious man called Arstan.
    Theon change his allegiance and takes Winterfell at the end of the episode.

  127. KG
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    aeh,

    Oh definitely. I’ll be disappointed if not.

  128. Fire And Blood
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    I’m very curious to see what changes they will make in the Jon and Dany story lines for season two. Neither does very much up until their ACoK climaxes, besides travel a lot. Their tales, if laid out exactly like they were in the book, won’t make for very compelling television until the very end (can’t imagine how they will do the House of the Undying, but I can’t wait to find out).

    So you have to punch things up. And staying with the “romance” theme Dave and Dan seem to be building on, my suggestion would be to introduce Ygritte early. A wildling raid on Mormont’s caravan for food and equipment, bold as you please. I would have Ygritte encounter Jon in one of the tents and actually beat him after a quick scuffle—have her knife at his throat before one of her cohorts whistles a retreat. She spares him…

    (Here we get to see she is at least semi-badass instead of just assuming she is.)

    Fast forward to the traditional encounter where Jon wins the fight and is told to, essentially, “get rid of her.” And he can’t.

    Fast forward to the end. Ygritte is with Rattleshirt and co. Her pleading look could be one of the things that actually makes Jon NOT want to do as the Halfhand wants, because he already knows in his heart he will be betraying her in the end.

    She gets three scenes, and there is clearly a romance brewing.

    As far as Dany is concerned… perhaps they play up on the chemistry Emilia Clarke has developed with Iain Glen, and make that more of a “will they—won’t they” scenario.

    Hell, maybe they will. And then she regrets it. Or something. It could make the scene where Arstan Whitebeard outs Mormont all the more painful for her.

  129. KG
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    I’d consider my monthly HBO bill well spent for some nekkid Iain Glen.

  130. weste
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    why does everyone gotta hate on the blackfish, he is the only tully that doesn’t suck

  131. andrea
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Winter is coming:

    Noooooo!???? I hope he´s talking about season 2 because I think Blackfish like Benjen will be more important later on …don´t you? I mean, Blackfish´s run away at the end of book 4 or I´m crazy? And Benjen is missing but not dead.

    Regarding your other question I believe that all love stories will occur sooner than we think and I don´t care much about that really. I´m sure will be great.

    What worries me a little bit: how they´ll dealt with magic in the relationships between Stark´s children and his direwolves. It seems difficult to adapt… ¿perhaps even a challenge?
    I must apologize once more for my english. I hope you have understood what I wrote.

  132. Thomas Chainsaw Ledbetter
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea: Love story wtf…

    wtf indeed… i want sum war story

  133. Lex
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    I 100% expect a Robb/Jeyne love story. How else would they expand Robb’s storyline? I also expect they might get a slight head start on Jon/Ygritte.

  134. The Dragon Demands
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    I strongly suspect that when they call season 2 the “season of the love story”, they are referring to Rhaegar/Lyanna flashbacks.

    The focus groups gave them the strong impression that they actually had to go back and shoot those flashback scenes, because: 1- its the biggest love story in the series, 2 – its confusing to have people just verbally explain what happened, SHOWING it is much less complicated.

  135. andrea
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Winter is coming:
    sorry, I didn´t realize I had to cover up the spoilers. So estupid. But they are not so serious right? I´m really sorry. Erase me, it´s ok.

  136. Charles
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    I had completly forgotten about Rhaegar and Lyana. Season 2 is he perfect chance to play that up, specially to add some flavor to Dani’s storyline which is preety static in book 2.

  137. tysnow
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Concerning the Eva Green situation, I don’t think she would take the role if it was even offered. She just seemed to be forcing herself at times toward the end of Camelot, perhaps she didn’t like the writing, directing or the terrible acting by others. I believe it left her with a negative attitude toward tv witches, and therefore she will go back to the big screen.
    But I could be wrong too, hopefully we won’t have to wait to much longer……afterall, HBO production starts in three weeks and still no additional casting news.

    WE WANT MORE CASTING CLUES! please……..pretty…please.

  138. Epic the fantastic
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy,

    God I hope not. By the way are you the last Mimsy by any chance? Because, I don’t know, I thought you might be the last Mimsy.

  139. Steve the Pirate
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    There is always the possibility that D&D are talking a bit of crap, too, reassuring the shipper-type fans that there will be big love stories.
    I don’t see anything wrong with moving up a bit of Jon & Ygritte. The bit with Qorin would make a great episode ending. I can see Jon breaking his vows completely with sex as being a good place to end a season for him.
    But I agree with spec with that Robb & Jeyne will be fleshed out into a great love story.

  140. Epic the fantastic
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    The Dragon Demands,

    That would be really surprising. Because the events that happen in agot/s01 are the resolution or last gasp of that background story. Ned is dead, King Robert is dead, and Dany never knew her family besides her brother, so any tension created by that background story would be wasted. But who knows. I for one would be very pleasantly surprised they went ahead with it, which is also why I doubt it’s going to happen.

    I would not be surprised if they expanded the Robb/Jeyne theme unfortunately.

  141. Jeda
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    My guess is they have to emphasize on Robb and Jeyne, so that Robb’s actions that will eventually lead to the Red Wedding do not seem out of the blue (as it might on TV if we barely see Jeyne). It might make the aforementionned event even better.

  142. Kim Litzow
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Maybe I missed something in the book Game of Thrones, but I don’t remember reading about the Renly/Loras relationship as it was depicted in the show. Both Robb and Jon’s romances don’t occur until Storm of Swords. So, I really wonder what love story they are talking about from Clash of Kings. Now, there were some things shown in season one that did not happen until Clash of Kings, so maybe they are going to bring some threads from Storm of Swords into Season two??? I love the idea of seeing more of Robb than is in Clash of Kings. I’d never tire of seeing Robb or Jon Snow!

  143. GaR
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Kim Litzow,

    I think Robb’s indiscretion did happen circa book 2, it just wasn’t mentioned until book 3 when Cat finds out.

    The Renly & Loras scene is a new one of course, but it could have happened; D&D didn’t have to change anything to put it in the show (except making Renly a wimp and Loras too skinny to actually wield a sword).

  144. Kim Litzow
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    I agree, one of the Fiennes brothers would make an awesome Stannis. Eva Green is a little young for Melisandre, but does a great “witch”.

  145. Jeda
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    GaR,

    Yes, there is nothing wrong with Gethin Anthony’s acting but he is probably the character which is the furthest from the book’s version imo. Nothing to do with his relation with Loras of course (it took me until book 3 to realise it but that was just me being slow), it’s more to do with his lack of charisma in Season 1. It’s hard to imagine that a fake Renly will lead to the victory of Blackwater with that version of the character. Only Season 2 will tell of course, but here, despite the fact that Loras and him mention that the people love him, he really doesn’t have the charisma he’s portrayed to have in the book.

  146. winterqueen
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    As for Sandor and Sansa- I will be very interested to see how HBO handles them in S2. Maybe some of the S1 interactions will be moved to S2? They have to show the Hound saving Sansa from the mob during the bread riot! Also, will they keep the “Sandor trying to take Sansa out of King’s Landing during the Blackwater” scene?.

    I like the idea of Robb and Jeyne’s love story being played out for the show

  147. John Stephens
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I’d wager big money that the love story is a flashback to the summerhall tourny with the where Rhaegar adorns Lyanna.

  148. Josh
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think it’s Jeyne and Robb, I think we’ll get them towards the end of the season but I think this season will feature Robb more as a soldier than a lover, haha. Robb doesn’t reach the Crag until the end of book 2. He has a lot of places to go through before he arrives at Jeyne.

    I think with the casting of Natalie, we’ll see more of Margery. You’ll probably see her struggle with her marriage, and Renly/Loras love story. We’ll also probably see Tyrion/Shae. Breinne/Renly.

    And if the rumors are true Brienne/Jamie.

  149. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Epic the fantastic:
    The Dragon Demands,

    That would be really surprising. Because the events that happen in agot/s01 are the resolution or last gasp of that background story. Ned is dead, King Robert is dead, and Dany never knew her family besides her brother, so any tension created by that background story would be wasted. But who knows. I for one would be very pleasantly surprised they went ahead with it, which is also why I doubt it’s going to happen.

    I would not be surprised if they expanded the Robb/Jeyne theme unfortunately.

    I was trying to run down all the people that might know about the whole thing and there really could be any # of folks that would know and keep it a secret because it really doesn’t matter at this point in the story (to anyone but Dany I would think) but I could imagine book-wise it would only be revealed to Dany/Jon through either Howland Reed or Barristan Selmy (who I think might very well know through a relationship with Rhaegar). Interesting to see if they develop it in the series and how they do it.

  150. DavosFTW
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I really think they should cut Qarth! Send Dany straight threw the desert to Slaver’s Bay!

    Or maybe just cut out every character that isn’t Davos.

  151. Ingemar Svensson
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Ya, doing Jeyne and Robb is certainly an inexpensive way to give Robb more screentime (like they said they wanted to) without having to spend that much to put battles that happens outside of the page onto the screen.

  152. Moon and Stars
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    I was so dissappointed with Dany and Drogos relationship ending. Thats what caught my attention the most. I wish there was someway to bring Drogo back :(

  153. Lord Ned's head
    Posted June 30, 2011 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Hey WiC. Not to nitpick, but the host’s name is Jon Hein as in the John Hein of The Howard Stern show and Jump the Shark fame.

  154. Steve Reynolds
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    KG,

    You do realise that’s not the same Mormont caravan? :)

    John Stephens: I’d wager big money that the love story is a flashback to the summerhall tourny with the where Rhaegar adorns Lyanna.

    I’d be REALLY surprised if they spend their pennies on flashbacks in season 2 when they have so much to get through and only 10 episodes to do it. The mystery of Jon’s parentage can wait for later when he’s more important than he is now.

    I lean toward the view that D&D’s comment means that love is an underlying theme in season 2, and that they’ll demonstrate it as a powerful motivation for people to do crazy things:
    We’ll see more of Renly and Loras, and we’ll see Loras go batshit with sword in hand after the shadow passes through Renly.
    We’ll see Robb fall in love with a Lannister even though they both know it’s crazy and if it’s written right it will be romantic enough to make you cry
    We’ll see Catelyn’s love for her daughters make her commit treason
    We’ll see Theon’s need for the love and approval of his father make him betray his friend and send him down an ever more doomed path
    and we’ll see Joffrey and Sansa provide the darkness that makes everything else bright

  155. DibuK
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    Wow Ros gets so much hate here.
    I love Ros so much I want the next seasons named after her:
    A clash of boobs
    A storm of Ros
    A dance with Ros

    I kid, I kid!

  156. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    The situation with Renly and how he has been portrayed in the novels as opposed to the television show are, in my mind, fairly easy to reconcile. If he’s given enough screen time in the second season (which I believe he will get in order for his death to have more impact for viewers), we’ll see him grow from the character we saw in season one to a charismatic, powerful leader of men (with the help of Renly, of course). It hardly needs to be said, but television and novels are two incredibly different mediums, and in the world of TV you don’t just have a character show up right out of the gate as the person that they’ll be throughout the entirety of their story.

    With regards to any concerns I may have over how season two will be handled – I’m not worried. Season two may be a bit longer as far as the number of pages goes, but I felt that the first season dispensed character motivation and development adeptly and concisely, whereas the same information sometimes took two or three pages of written word to get to the same conclusion. I think D&D have got this covered, and with Martin being so heavily involved with the series (compared to the influence most authors have when their work is adapted), I think we have plenty of reason to simmer down a bit and be a little more optimistic about how things will play out.

    Just my two cents.

  157. paulgude
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    I agree completely about Renly.

    I think that TV Renly will see this as his time to shine, out from underneath his brother’s thumb. As you say, book Renly never had this issue, but for TV Renly it’s a big opportunity.

  158. Ser Lemon Cakes
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    paulgude,

    Re: Renly/Margery/Loras: I really hope the show that Magerey is a knowing ‘beard’/ in on it. I think the casting of Natatile Dormer points to that. I makes Margery a more complicated person/player and and Loras’ love for each other (him joining the Kingsguard to protector) deepper.

  159. paulgude
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Ser Lemon Cakes,

    I agree.

    I think a variant of that is that we’ll may see Renly try to hide it from her but she’ll figure it out and be pragmatic.

  160. Phoenix_Torn
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    I agree. One of the biggest problems with Renly in season 1 was that we never really got to know what “the people” thought of him. Loras says they love him. Littlefinger belittles him, but Renly only really interacts with the council and Robert. If we need an outsider’s opinion.

    *your name is fantastic

  161. the goat
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Phoenix_Torn,

    When does he interact with the people in the books?

  162. paulgude
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 3:05 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    In the books, he actually appears in the tournament.

    “Renly was unhorsed so violently that he seemed to fly backward off his charger, legs in the air. His head hit the ground with an audible crack that made the crowd gasp, but it was just the golden antler on his helm. When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly, for King Robert’s handsome young brother was a great favorite.”

    It’s probably one of the biggest character changes, as Renly in the show doesn’t like fighting.

  163. Emma
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 3:32 am | Permalink

    SanSan!
    I don’t care what anyone says, I love these two. Their relationship is one of the best (and most fucked up) I’ve ever read. If TPTB decide not to put it in the show, heads will roll. Absolutely.

  164. Astalnar
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    Pamoya,

    My bad, totaly forgot about Arya beeing at the time in Harrenhal.

  165. Chris77
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    I always wonder why so many of you are suggesting mayor character cuts/merging.
    We are fans after all and want aeverything!!!
    Season one was able to introduce us to the world and mayor plotline without mayor cuts and I have confidence that D & D will be able to do so with S 2 as well. After all the main players and the world is already introduced and you only have to show some new minor locales (which they managed admirably with the Eyrie and the Twins in Season 1). Stannis is already known to us as well the the Greyjoy background after all.

    I would rather have them show all the characters without giving them lines or names ( they could show a maester in Dragonstone and the fans will know it is Cressen for example) or give them short cameos (like Beric in S 1) than cutting them whole. I don’t think merging will do any good, because the books are not written to the end and we don’t know yet if some characters will play a role later on. And even if Martin does tell D & D that certain characters won’t play a role later on ( unrealistic IMO, because if Martin knew the whole story inside out yet, all books would be out in short succession…) it spoils the future books for the fans because we will be able to tell so by the series…

    Eva Green for Mellisandre!!!

  166. Rimshot
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    Off Topic

    Hi guys!

    I recently did an interview on Radio Ulster with the lovely Carla who runs Extras NI. We were there to plug the open casting for GOT season 2 extras being held on 4th July in Belfast. I chatted about being an extra and my experience on GOT. It was great fun! It’s available for a few more days on this link. We are on at the the start for about 10 minutes. I also had a nice chat with Carla off air about S2. Can’t say anything but it will be very cool!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0124476/Arts_Extra_29_06_2011

  167. the goat
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    paulgude: It’s probably one of the biggest character changes, as Renly in the show doesn’t like fighting.

    That all depends on how you define “fighting.” (also, I’m presuming that events from the 1st season of the show are no longer considered spoilers.)

    George has made it pretty clear that tourney jousting is for “knights of summer.” In the show, of course, we only see the two deadliest jousts (to man & beast alike), because those are the most important, plot-wise. But that doesn’t change the fact that in Westeros 99% of tourney jousts end with neither death nor serious injury. So, just because Renly entered the lists in the book doesn’t all of a sudden make him Rambo. Even in the book, he never “fought” anyone. He looks like Robert; when he has a giant army behind him, he acts like Robert; but he was never Robert, book or show.

    I agree that the show (especially the shaving scene) made him seem “wimpier” than in the book, and certainly less self-assured (which is actually my biggest complaint.) But its really just a matter of perspective. Simple version: In the book, tourneys ain’t a big deal, every knight does it. Thus, Renly jousts. In the show, tourneys are constant deathtraps. Thus, Renly doesn’t.

    As far as the “people love you” thing, that’s more a practical concern: a) spend another 2-3 days of shooting and $100,000 just to show Renly get unhorsed so the crowd can cheer when he gets up (which most of the non-reading audience wouldn’t even understand), or, b) add a line to Loras’ dialogue about why Renly could should be king. I would’ve loved to see more jousting, of course, but whattya gonna do.

  168. Blackfish Blues
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    Wow, the comments this morning actually made me feel better about the BLOODY-GATE. See, having something to do is much better than wait and worry.

    Shinyteapot:
    Blackfish Blues,
    A possibility (and I have no idea if it’s true or not) that would make you happy:

    Maybe Blackfish becomes a more prominent character in ADWD. In which case D&D might wait a while to bring him in, so they can cast someone particularly good. But mentioning this would be a spoiler, so they don’t.

    There’s a hope you can hold onto until the 12th anyway :)

    Thanks, it’s a nice thought! The 12th will be a day of closure anyway. Unless there’s no Blackfish at all in ADWD, and I can relax for the next 5-6 years.

    Kingthlayer:
    The Blackfish – maybe I have read this wrong (which happens from time to time) but it’s my recollection that at the end of Feast, the Blackfish has escaped Riverrun. Now, GRRM would not have made that happen unless there were something significant for him to do once escaped.
    (snip)
    The producers have probably already discussed the future of all these characters with GRRM but that’s disheartening too if they have learned that the Blackfish meets an insignificant end.

    Great answer, and sorry if I messed up your spoilers: they disappeared when I quoted, and I put them back, and also highlighted the part that perfectly explains the reason why I’m so bereaved.

    (Why one should have a sanity-threatening crisis about it is too long to explain here. If you wish you can dig out my blog.)

    I’m having a discussion on Twitter with Ser Pounce, of all people. :) I’m trying to explain that I DON’T think “if D&D decide to cut the Blackfish, GRRM will cut him from future books”. I DO think, on the contrary, that if D&D cut the Blackfish, it means they know GRRM will cut him from future books. I don’t even think it’s Roz’s fault; I think GRRM is still elaborating his material, and D&D act accordingly. Kingthlayer just said it better.

    GaR:
    (snip)
    … it’d be some GRRM style bullshit for him to reappear in book 5 as a drowned corpse at Saltpans or whatever :P

    That’s what I’m afraid of. (I don’t think this is a spoiler, not even a theory, otherwise apologies for not blacking it out.) That GRRM is cutting because he’s lost control of his awesomely big and detailed world and needs to finish this thing somehow. It’s the same reason why, though with less emotional involvement, I’m afraid that Davos, Brienne and Loras have already died off-screen.

    (WARNING, REAL ADWD SPOILER FROM SAMPLE CHAPTER) Mance Rayder is surely already dead in the AFFC timeline. (END OF REAL ADWD SPOILER FROM SAMPLE CHAPTER) And by the way, this messed up my mind big time, and I still wish GRRM had divided AFFC and ADWD chronologically, instead of by character.

    But guess what, I could deal with a dead Blackfish. My super-power is denial! :P It’s the wait that’s killing me.

    Knurk,
    THANKS! I feel less alone now. :P I think people in this thread are generally nice about not “getting” the Blackfish. But I don’t get people who don’t get what others get. (sorry.) They seem so surprised. Yet it’s the very point of a good story, there’s something for everyone. I don’t “get” the Arianne Martell or even Robb Stark love, but I’m not surprised that lots of people like them. Since you mentioned it, I’ll repost my Blackfish theory below, for everybody’s entertainment! As soon as I find it…

    Once again, anyway, I can’t understand why last year GRRM was all “BLACKFISH MOVED TO S2 PERIOD DEAL WITH IT” and this year they are all dancing around the issue and D&D can only produce a Blackfish-related apologetic halting sentence that could refer to the past or the future. That’s why I suspect, as I said above, that GRRM still hasn’t decided what to do with the Blackfish (and a million other characters).

    BLOODY-GATE!

  169. GaR
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    Blackfish Blues,

    I’m pretty sure GRRM has it all under control.

    The alternative is unthinkable.

    I hope Brynden gets up to some rad shit in Dance…

  170. Blackfish Blues
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    GaR,
    fingers crossed! :D

    Here’s my old post, sorry if some stuff is a repetition but I have no time to edit, sigh (damn work interfering with my emotional well-being)

    Why the Blackfish?

    I think this needs an answer on three levels.

    1. Storytelling level: short answer, we don’t know yet. We’ll know by ADWD, probably even later. AFFC ends with several characters, Blackfish included, on a cliffhanger. If GRRM has decided he’s created too much material (my main fear) he’ll slash left and right in JK Rowling style: Davos and Brienne will die offscreen and the Blackfish will be said to have drowned in the Red Fork, never to be mentioned again. Or, he is Azor Ahai reborn. How can we tell? Right now, asking what the Blackfish contributes to the story is like having read only AGOT and wondering what Tywin or Shae contribute to the story.

    2. Texture level: What did Jory bring to the TV show? Ser Rodrik? Shagga? They help create a believable and interesting world. This of course varies widely with personal opinion. But from a purely “picturesque” level, I can’t imagine how D&D could pick and choose and say “we keep this one and not that one”. Until now, they’ve kept a lot of cool characters we were sure they’d cut.

    Speaking of Jory, one of my favourite scenes of the show is the Jaime-Jory exchange in front of King Robert’s bedchamber. Can you imagine what a similar scene with the Blackfish would do for NCW while Jaime is a prisoner in Riverrun? Not to mention to prepare the famous AFFC dialogue?

    3. “Statement” level: the reason why a lot of people like the Blackfish is that he embodies a rebellion of some kind against conventions. Once again, this reminds me of JKR’s Lupin. He was an inspiring outcast in books 3 and 5. Then he was wimpified in the movies (no offence to David Thewlis who was perfect, it was the way he was written – and dressed) and reduced to off-screen gossip in the last 2 books.

    There, I’ve even shortened it a bit, to be less obnoxious. BLOODY-GATE!

  171. the goat
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Also, um…….I’m just gonna throw this out there, but did it ever cross anyone’s mind that, maybe…….perhaps………….Dave was being, I don’t know, slightly tongue-in-cheek when he said that……..given the fact

    THAT EVERY SINGLE FUCKING LOVE STORY IN ASOIAF HAS BEEN FUCKING DOOMED SO FAR!

    Let’s go down the line, shall we:
    (I count unrequited love as “potential love stories, doomed to haunt the future”)

    Lyanna/Rhaegar
    Petyr/Cat
    Robert/Lyanna
    Brandon/Cat
    Ned/Cat
    Dany/Drogo
    Sansa/Joffrey (at least this one we can all be happy was doomed)
    Renly/Loras
    Brienne/Renly
    San/San
    Robb/Jeyne
    Jon/Ygritte
    Oberyn/his paramours
    Jaime/Cersei
    Tyrion/Shae
    Jorah/Dany
    Lysa/Petyr
    Arianne/Ser Arys

    I’m sure I missed some. Anyway, point is I think/hope he was snidely referring to the two I think/hope might actually work out (although I sure as hell ain’t holdin my breath at this point):

    Sam/Gilly
    Brienne/Jaime

  172. Kim Litzow
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    GaR,

    I just finished CoK, and am in the beginning of SoS, and we haven’t met Jeyne’s character yet. From what I understand of the circumstances of their meeting, it could have occured without us knowing as there isn’t a lot about Robb in CoK. You mention that we learn about it when Catelyn does. So, if that is the case, they could use that material in season two, even if it isn’t written in CoK. There were a few scenes in season one that didn’t occur until CoK, which surprised me because there was so much material to cover that was in GoT. But, as a tv series, it all worked, and I wouldn’t know the difference if I hadn’t been reading the books as the series progressed. Given the great job they have done so far, I will trust that whatever material they decide to put in a particular show or season will end up working perfectly.

  173. Mimsy
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    Epic the fantastic,

    Not only am I Mimsy. I am the Last of the Mimsies, lol.

    So, are you epic by any chance?

    Anyway, I agree that I hope they don’t carry out the ideas I mentioned.

    If I was directing second season I’d focus on the adventure. Most characters are travelling a lot in strange locales. I’d give this season a bit of the kind of feel Indy Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark / Temple of Doom. With less hamming it up though. Try to keep it exotic yet real.

  174. aaron
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    my one question, and i’m not going to talk about who should or shouldn’t be cut, is this – if they have 540 minutes to tell the entire story, why spend about 40 of them on random sex scenes with prostitutes? there has to be another way to give the back story of the characters involved. if they cut out those scenes, they could easily put a ton more ACTUAL story into the show.

    sadly, i know they have to keep it in or else the true blood fans wouldn’t watch.

  175. clemintine
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I think it’s rather two sided. One one side of their mouths they talking about so many new characters and what they have to cut and difficult choices. On the other side of their mouths they give us Ros in the series, a frivolous, useless character who doesn’t exist in the books! Gawd I hate her. If they want to talk about choices and cutting, then cut Ros and give her screen time to an actual character. I mean, I loved the added content with dialogue between Varys and Littlefinger, Cersei and Robert etc. but felt slapped every time Ros showed up/was mentioned. Kill her off already, that’s not a hard choice.

    The San/San I never got. He once said “I should have raped her when I had the chance.” Does that sound like some sort of romance to be idolized? It’s sick. Anyways, I’m more of a Sansa/Tyrion shipper (once she’s grown up of course) and I think they’re the true beauty and the beast story here. He’s the only Lannister who treats her with respect and decency, and well, unlike other men of his era and setting he doesn’t contractually rape her but tries to give her her own comfort zone as best he could even if it burns him.

  176. Johan Sporre
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    clemintine,

    SanTyr all the way!

  177. Whiskeyjack
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Alright maybe not cut all the Dorne characters. But through a AFFC it feels as if the all the extra characters swamped over the others that were the whole reason I like series. The only characters not introduced in GoT that I want to hear more about are Davos, Brienne, Strong Belwas and Howland Reed if we ever meet him – and maybe Dunk and Egg (which I would love as a 3 episode interlude between TV seasons). The Dornish folks are somewhat interesting in their own right and I like the cultural counter-point they add to the story, but they detract from the main story arcs and they go on for too long.

    And usually I like adding protagonists later in series (argubably the two most compelling character from Malazan were added in books 4 or 5 – Karsa and Tehol). But so far outside of those I mentioned I feel like most of the added chracters muddy the waters. May be a I will be wrong and they will be intregal to a ADWD, but its difficult to see that now.

    Further, in my mind GoT, ACoK and SoS read as one long story – with a AFFC really almost a different tone (like a Hamlet novel about Rosencrantz). So I don’t mind with moving up story arcs to make a TV season more compelling, or largely cutting characters. That said, I do think Blackfish will make an appearance. Too much happens at Riverrun for him not to show up.

  178. Knurk
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Whiskeyjack,

    I had the same feeling reading AFFC for the first time, I was rushing through the books just to know what happened to Arya. But the second time I fell in love with the Sandsnakes, Oldtown and the Crow’s Eye. And to be fair: there are only 4 (!) Dorne chapters, so they didn’t drag the story. As I said, Dorne can be done with 5 or less castings and they only have to appear in a few episodes. But for the love of the Old Gods, don’t cut them!

  179. Shane Armstrong
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Off with Sansa’s head – my first read through, I skipped almost all her chapters because they were so boring, and did not advance the storyline. The Littlefinger/Eyrie story is going to be chopped to pieces anyways.

    As for love strories:

    Loras/Renly/Margary
    Stannis/Melisande
    Jon/Yrgritte
    Gilly/Sam

    Too many to name, but they also have a lot of treachery and war to cover. I didn’t think they could pull off GOT, but they did. So who knows until we see a finished product.

  180. Lina
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    But aren’t there only a few days between Ygritte’s death and when Jon defends the Wall/becomes LC? They surely couldn’t stretch that for a whole season, do you think?

    Though I do agree that the duel with Halfhand makes for a perfect natural cliffhanger for the end of Season 2.

    Fire And Blood,
    Yes! Brilliant idea!

  181. JonJRaymond
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    Knurk,

    The Dorne chapters are my favorites. I could do with them cutting most of the Iron Island storylines.

  182. JonJRaymond
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    I don’t think of Ned and Cat as a doomed love story. They had 5 kids! Cut short certainly and they could never grow old together but…

  183. paulgude
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    the goat,

    Yeah, I hesitated putting it in spoiler tags. The only reason I did is that it’d be a bit of a surprise for anyone who’s watched the show but hasn’t read the books if they ever decide to.

    The original point to all of this isn’t whether Renly’s tough or not, but rather where in the book it demonstrates the people’s attitude towards him. In the books, he gets a little bit of the rock star crowd appeal that Loras has.

    In the show, Loras lays it out like this.

    “People love you. They love to serve you because you’re kind to them. They want to be near you. You’re willing to do what needs to be done, but you don’t gloat over it. You don’t love killing. Where is it written that power is the sole provence of the worst? That thrones are only made for the hated and the feared? You would be a wonderful king.”

    In my mind, they’re setting up his popularity due to his performance as a civil servant in his role as master of laws. It’s not a bad thing, but it is a difference.

  184. Shock Me
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    For me both the Iron Islands and Dorne confused the issue. Add to that the lengthy introduction of Brienne (whom I happen to like despite the boring internal monlogues) and that she seems like an afterthought especially after she is strung up with Pod by Lady Stoneheart.

    I love Asha, Euron, Arianne, Doran, Oberyn, and Darkstar but their introduction makes it seem like GRRM got stuck on how to develop Dany, Jon, and Arya and threw them in to distract us until he could think of something.

    The only reason I even want to see Dorne someday is that I’m a huge fan of Aveo Hotah and I want to see him fight whatever our former maester Qyburn is cooking up in the dungeons of the Red Keep to fit that heavy plate.

  185. Whiskeyjack
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    JonJRaymond,

    I was going to throw in the Iron Born stuff as well but at least through Theon they have direct hand in things – so I can appreciate it a bit more as appropriate background.

  186. Epic the Doggystyles
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Anything with sex or the opportunity for sex scenes will be added, not cut.. HBO will be all over the sandsnakes because they relate to sexual taboos (HBO’s favorite subject). HBO”ll even have to cut other sexpositions to show how nasty and kinky these Martells are. Once they get to the Alleras/Sarella stuff they’re going to go absolutely ballistic.

    EDIT: Did I say sexual taboos? Sorry, I meant: tired sexual taboos.

  187. Jenny
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Shane Armstrong:
    Off with Sansa’s head – my first read through, I skipped almost all her chapters because they were so boring, and did not advance the storyline.The Littlefinger/Eyrie story is going to be chopped to pieces anyways.

    Well. In fact there are some of the most vital informations in the Sansa Chapters.
    Even if you don’t like her, they give you some hell of a clue!

  188. Ryan E
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Bran: if they had such an aversion of cutting storylines and characters, how about, I dunno, ask for more than 10 damn episodes? D and D are the ones who wanted to go w/ 10 eps. If they’re gonna f up this thing, I just as soon see it end now

    Its mind-blowing that someone would say that, after we just finished the highly successful and excellent first season. They are certainly not f’ing this up, this has been an even better adaptation than most of us could have believed.

  189. Gerard
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    I always felt one of GRRM’s failings was the Robb character development. I will be glad if they expand on the Jeyne-Robb storyline. The series did a good job strengthening Robb’s character…so much more than Book 1 did. When I read Book 1 I felt a near zero connection with Robb, so when he dies at the Red Wedding, I kind of shrugged it off. The TV series has made Robb’s character much more important to the viewer so more detail on what makes up the man will be appreciated and make his demise that much more meaningful to the whole plot.

  190. Brad
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Stacia: I guess what really pissed me off reading the books was that I felt like far too many irrelevant other characters were added. I started reading because I was interested in the Stark kids and I felt as the series went along, all of them became irrelevant.

    It’s sort of as if the Harry Potter books stopped being about Harry and started focusing on a dozen other characters and Harry only occasionally appeared.

    I understand what you’re saying, but I can really appreciate the way the focus of the narrative shifts to different characters throughout the series. I think it’s brilliant, and I wish the adaptation would retain this quality. That would mean following ACoK closely, and having few scenes with Robb and Jaime.

    The Wire had this quality — the second season was an entirely different supporting cast than season 1. When season 3 brought back the original supporting cast, while also keeping the thematic and plot developments from season 2, it was phenomenal. Like catching up with old friends — and enemies.

    The material is there in ASoIaF for that kind of adventurous storytelling in the adaptation.. But it looks like the showrunners are playing it more safely than that.

  191. Kalasin
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    I have just finished books 2 and 3 and I am all for cutting a LOT of characters. I realize I haven’t read book 4 yet, but from my perspective I have no idea what function the Blackfish would serve in a tv show (I barely know what role he serves in the books). He’s kind of a tiny background character (one of about a million at that level of importance to the story) compared with so many others (e.g. Bolton, Dondarrion) who will probably need to be in there because they are more important to the story and have more impact on the principal’s lives. There are TOO many people in these books, and it’s going to be enough a a challenge to find a way to break down Dany and Arya’s storylines and keep them clear, because they’re rather convoluted in the books and involve LOTS of people of limited long-term importance, without adding in random people standing in the background in Riverrun. I really hope they are able to find a way to streamline Arya’s story for the show, because it made me very frustrated even though she is a character I love. I was so grateful when she wound up with the Hound because at least I knew exactly who he was and where he came from.

    As far as the story breaks, I personally love the way Jon’s story is broken down in the books, because the end of book 2 is a great stopping point and it makes book three kind of his book, where his character gets this huge arc and journey, and it would be nice to keep that intact. Ygritte in book 2 is a prologue, and I like keeping her main story intact in one season, and how it plays into Jon’s later decisions in staying with the watch, etc. shouldn’t be broken up, imo. But I could see them bleeding the edges. Maybe end season 2 with the wildings going over the wall?

    Really it’s hard to predict without knowing what’s in store for book 5 though. He could feature heavily (likely, imo), and they would need to fast-track his story overall, or he could be in it very little, in which case they could move more slowly.

    So if they keep those breaks more or less intact (and let’s face it – they didn’t put THAT much from book 2 in season 1 – they stayed almost true to the book – I know they’ll bleed the edges more between seasons 2 and 3 but there’s no reason to think they’ll go overboard), I think it makes a lot of sense to include stuff with Robb and Jeyne. We know they want to find ways to use him next season, and they certainly can’t just put in a bunch of random battles (for budget reasons, if nothing else). They could make this more of Robb’s season and then make the next one more of Jon’s. Just to keep the girls on their toes :) (and to make Robb’s death in season 3 more affecting.)

    Plus, the argument that Jon’s storyline is separate and therefore easier to mess with, timeline-wise breaks down when you bring Stannis into the picture.

    The bigger question for me is how they’re going to get Jaime into the season.

  192. Knurk
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Maybe one of the moderators has to state a bit more clearly in the mainpost that new viewers should stay the heck away out of the commentsection because spoilers are all over the place here, though I doubt a lot of new viewers are already scared away by WiC’s warning.

  193. Wolfheart
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    When does Ygritte pop in book 2 or 3. Jon needs his trist!

  194. Mirax
    Posted July 1, 2011 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Gerard,

    Whoa, spoilers of that caliber should be blocked, or at the very least you need to warn people before you just type it out! Any death not in season one should be spoiler tagged. I realize there probably aren’t any complete newbies reading this thread, but there could be plenty of people out there who have read book 2 but haven’t made it through book 3 that would think it’s safe to read this thread since it’s titled season 2. : (

  195. the goat
    Posted July 2, 2011 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    JonJRaymond:
    the goat,

    I don’t think of Ned and Cat as a doomed love story.They had 5 kids!Cut short certainly and they could never grow old together but…

    Yeah, I guess you’re right. When Ned got his head chopped off, the general consensus seemed to be, “well, they had five kids, its all good.” Cat seems to have taken it pretty well, too.

    paulgude,

    Agree completely, but as I said, I think it comes down to more of a practical (budget/shooting schedule) concern than a re-invention of the character. So many people have opined that Renly is somehow wholly different than in the books, which is simply not true, that when I read your comment “probably one of the biggest character changes,” I presumed you were making the same argument.

    Obviously he’s more of a pawn than in the books, but he was always a pawn. Renly: more suited to hold the crown than ever win the thing. Ah, sweet irony. Peaches, anyone?

  196. zuziako
    Posted July 2, 2011 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Puuh-leeeze. It’s about Sandor and Sansa. I mean, they hinted it in the last episode. And maybe beginning of Arya/Gendry ? And of course, one sided Dany/Jorah !

  197. Hydr0x1de
    Posted July 2, 2011 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Epic the Doggystyles:
    Anything with sex or the opportunity for sex scenes will be added, not cut.. HBO will be all over the sandsnakes because they relate to sexual taboos (HBO’s favorite subject). HBO”ll even have to cut other sexpositions to show how nasty and kinky these Martells are. Once they get to the Alleras/Sarella stuff they’re going to go absolutely ballistic.

    FWIW, I’m 75% certain that D&D have already introduced Sarella in the form of Shae, hence part of the reason for the additional scene and the significant character changes.

    –OH.

  198. Nikki
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    I can see Jeyne-Robb being fleshed out in this, which would be nice, since I love Robb.

    Anyone think Davos might be cut? hmmm
    It’s probably Patchface! haha

  199. Cookie
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    aaron:
    my one question, and i’m not going to talk about who should or shouldn’t be cut, is this – if they have 540 minutes to tell the entire story, why spend about 40 of them on random sex scenes with prostitutes?there has to be another way to give the back story of the characters involved.if they cut out those scenes, they could easily put a ton more ACTUAL story into the show. sadly, i know they have to keep it in or else the true blood fans wouldn’t watch.

    If they´d just cut out those scenes, the story could easily become incomprehensible for the non-book reader due to a severe lack of backstory and context. While the sex itself might be gratuitous, the “sexposition” scenes as a whole are definitely not.

    I´d also prefer a less clunky way of giving the viewer this information, but it doesn´t mean they could cut out this exposition entirely. It serves a purpose after all. And i do think it is necessary to tell the story.

  200. tysnow
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Found this pic of the absolutely perfect Melisandre , can’t beat this!
    and another smokin pic of the Red Priestess

  201. tysnow
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    I agree with those who said Karen Gillan for Ygritte, (I believe someone mentioned her before) and Ta Da, Pixie Lott (Scottish pop star and wanabe actress) as Gilley (it would be a good first role).

  202. Mormegil
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Hydr0x1de: FWIW, I’m 75% certain that D&D have already introduced Sarella in the form of Shae, hence part of the reason for the additional scene and the significant character changes.–OH.

    Can’t really see this happening. Whilst it’s possible that Shae may turn out to be from a noble family I doubt she is any character we have met in the books.
    And why do you think she may be Sarella? Is she trying out different careers? Sailor – tick Camp Follower – Tick, Maester – Tick.

  203. tysnow
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Mormegil,

    Can’t really see this happening.

    Why not, I can easily see one of the Sand Snakes going under cover (literally) to work there way into the Lannister household, better to spy on them (we know they are used this way from time to time). Afterall we all know how the Dornish hate the Lannisters, this is a good way for Sandsnake Shae to prep the ground for her fathers arrival and their revenge against Tywin.
    It is also a good way to expand Shae’s character and make her more interesting, while blending her story into later happenings. Furthermore it makes better use of a very talented actor and explains the mystery behind the new improved Shae 2.0 that D&D have created.

  204. Mormegil
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    I did say she may be a from a noble family which of course could include the Martells but I can’t accept her as Sarella as that would change the story too much, killing Shae is a big part of Tyrions story and if Shae was Sarella she would have to leave Kings Landing and go to the Citadel and thus not be killed by Tyrion.

  205. obsidian
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Cookie,

    I really can’t agree as to the usefulness of the sexposition scenes. Some , I liked and found useful …others ,I was sort of ambivalent about ,and still others I disliked intensely…mainly for what they did or didn’t achieve , rather than for the sex / nudity itself.

    In terms of furthering the story ,Tyrion’s was the most useful , establishing a lot about his character and relationship to Jaime from the outset.
    Pycelle’s was the next best , both telling and amusing, and though it seemed to come out of nowhere in the episode , the payoff will come early next season when Tyrion surprises him in bed with a woman .. I guess you could argue that it might work better as a surprise , but still , it works…I’m a bit nervous that the woman in his bed will be Ros, since that might mean further straying from the text with Tyrion , and further build-up of Ros ..but we’ll see..

    I know people who found the bathtub dalliance ridiculous ..but I didn’t mind it . Let’s face it , I can’t begrudge Harry Lloyd any screen time ;), and while the writers could have informed us as effectively in another manner ( which also would have worked for me ), the scene did provide quite a bit of foreshadowing in a number of areas and a greater understanding of Viserys.

    Proceeding onto progressively iffy-er ground … I had no objection to seeing Renly / Loras in an intimate situation . I found it somewhat disappointing that the situation seemed designed to appeal to contemporary tastes . What disturbed me most was what to me ,was a perversion of the characters.. Renly seeming so pouty and petulant ( can‘t stand the sight of blood? He seemed to get through the tournament ok ..), Loras seeming so obviously manipulative .. Combine this Renly with Renly at the Hunt and Renly with Ned, and I’m not exactly feeling sanguine about where they’ll take him next season.( Or Loras , for that matter )…Loras says the people love Renly, but we don’t ever really see a reason why .

    Now we come to Theon and things get worse. His scene with Ros reveals nothing we aren’t shown in other scenes , except for his anatomy . We’ve got Theon / Tyrion , Theon Robb, and what I think is the most revealing ,if not the most explicit , Theon / Osha / Luwin . The Ros scene feels contrived ,clunky and repetitious. I wouldn’t have minded seeing Theon having some sort of sexual romp, or coming on to the odd serving wench. Lust is a fairly important component of his make up. It needn’t have taken so much time , or such a highly unlikely conversation to reveal it. The added emphasis makes his subsequent swearing to Robb seem suspect , whereas in the original story , Theon doesn’t realise the depth of his own resentment til he gets to the Iron Islands.
    On top of this, would we expect book Theon to gallop off for a last glimpse of the Brazilian of a departing whore ? No. He’d be lifting the skirt of the nearest miller’s wife , crofter’s daughter or kitchen maid .

    To my mind , the least effective and least appealing was the LF/ whores scene. It’s been rehashed to death, so I won’t go over it in detail again,
    …But before we ever got to this scene ,I thought they were writing LF a bit on the broad ,or “ heavy” side. This just confirmed that suspicion . There’s no hint of how his financial wheeling and dealing made him wealthy and an important player at court…to all appearances , it’s just by “ virtue “ of being the bestest pimp. For a subtle character, his monologue is completely off . Instead of being suspicious and unsure of where he stands , no viewer could now entertain the possibility that he might have any worthy intentions whatsoever. Even if he doesn’t actually divulge any real plans , it’s not the sort of misdirection a true manipulator would care to have out there.

    The absolute worst thing about the sexposition is that it’s become a running joke in just the first season .. and I don’t think an intentional one. So I hope they’ll reconsider and dial it way back for season 2. For me , it provided most of the few truly jarring notes in an otherwise superlative production.

  206. obsidian
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Mormegil,

    Couldn’t agree more on the unliklihood of Shae =Sarella Not only would it mess with the story line but the part of Sarella cries out for an actress with some African heritage . I can’t imagine D&D would fail to go with this .

  207. obsidian
    Posted July 3, 2011 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    Even with book Shae , we have only her word on her background, no verification…and considering her ultimate fate, her backgroud is unimportant to the story. We only know her through her relationship with Tyrion.
    I think D & D probably found an actress they liked , who was comfortable with a certain amount of nudity , but who happened to have an accent , and adjusted the character accordingly. They could write any number of backgrounds for her without changing the story in any meaningful way at all.

  208. hydr0x1de
    Posted July 4, 2011 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    (Rather long, but pardon me while I try and explain why my 75% certainty is not 75% crackpot. Excessively long posting the first sign of crackpottery? Oh dear)

    The more regular characters, the harder it to keep straight who’s who, particularly for non-readers. The Wire had a large cast, a consequent high entry barrier, and almost didn’t complete because of low ratings. D&D want to be able to make the full 7-8 seasons if possible, and GOT needs good ratings to justify its budget. So Donal Noye, Blackfish, Thoros, Hallen, ?Jhogo?, etc, were cut from Season 1. What they really don’t want to do every season is introduce significantly more additional characters than they can get rid of. Even worse is where characters disappear for a year or three. If Osha accompanies Bran instead of Rickon, and Littlefinger and Robb are shown wooing Lysa and Jeyne respectively, I won’t be surprised, because it keeps regular characters in front of the viewers. If Marillion — who otherwise would not have returned until end of Season 3 — is never seen again, or else appears in Petyr’s storyline in Season 2, I won’t be surprised. If Karstarks, Blackfish, a goodly number of Beric’s and Hoat’s men, Lady Whent, and most of the Sandsnakes appear only by implication or not at all, then so be it. Not saying that these things will/must/should happen – just that if they do they’re reasonable changes to keep things tight and comprehensible.

    Transmitting backstory and plotlines needs to be done more obviously than in the book because unlike readers, viewers can’t read minds or narrative. The Jory/Jaime scene, the Robert/Barristan/Jaime, and the Osha/Theon/Luwin scenes served multiple purposes – developing and connecting characters, and getting backstory over. Ros was, I think, an awful but necessary addition as she allowed characters to be able to spiel backstory where there’s no other appropriate character (similarly Viserys/Doreah and Littlefinger’s audition) – hopefully that’ll stop now. There’s subtleties that are lost in translation – the Varys/Illyrio meeting is a standout, but the Varys/Petyr scenes and the Pycelle (+Ros) scene are also upfront – they show the players as players explicitly rather than by implication.

    Dorne is enough of a problem in AFFC, being a mass of side-plot, with a bunch of new characters (I love it, but it’s seen as a bolt-on by many). Some have suggested it be cut, but I suspect that’s not possible. Changes to connect things might help integrate it for viewers. For instance, Prince Doran could well appear a couple of times in Season 3 (Oberyn pre-KL showing him explicitly as a player, Myrcella arriving in Dorne, reactions to death of Oberyn). With a direct adaptation, Sarella would only be mentioned in passing at in end of 3/beginning of 4 , first appear in Season 5 (presuming AFFC&ADWD are merged and split), and be revealed presumably in Season 6. If it’s important for a Sandsnake to be in Oldtown (ie: you can’t just cut Alleras or make the character male and unrelated) – and given Aemon’s vision it probably is – then it runs the potential of seeming very arbitrary and out-of-the-blue to viewers.

    As an article of faith, I hold that where changes in the adaptation have been made, there’s a good reason; they’ve cut or merged characters, cut subplots, and added a red-header whore not for the hell of it, but because they’ve decided it helps tell the story that needs to be told better and more simply. And if they’ve gone out of their way to cast a foreign actress as Shae, and given her additional deliberately mysterious backstory, this isn’t random whim or handwaving. It’s Chekov’s gun – there has to be a payoff for the changes to the character and the details of that game. Otherwise there’s other backstory they could have plugged in there, or else they could have introduced Shae at Winterfell, and not kept her separate from Ros – and just added Random Whore-Of-The-Week as required. It would be really interesting to see what the casting sheet said.

    So firstly the downsides of Shae as Sarella: She’s not half-Summer Islander, and it would mean a significant change to the end of ASOS (death of Ros to get the amusement over Tywin’s death?). The impact on Tyrion‘s character arc is not trivial – and is the reason why I’m only 75% rather than 90% on it. Not being half Summer Islander? Well, not ideal, but for Sarella, above all, they need someone who can play both female and male (take a look at Wikipedia’s pic and imagine sans makeup with eyebrows unplucked and shorter hair), and that trumps the requirement for specific racial mix.

    And the advantages of Shae as Sarella? It introduces a potentially significant late-game character into the mix early; it enables the transmission of backstory with Red Viper/Sarella scenes (revenge/court info/rationale for Oldtown); it adds a female player into the mix; it’d contrast with Arya (Sarella gets things right); it enables integration with the Dorne storylines and makes Sarella‘s appearance in Oldtown explicit; and it explains Shae 2.0 (nice term!) using only book-derived backstory.

    So why doesn’t Shae being both a daughter of some noble family – Martell or otherwise – and being killed by Tyrion work? Because it doesn’t make things simpler. There’s no family in the books that have or need (dramatically) a(nother) daughter dead at the hand of a Lannister. Why is there no mystery about Ros’s background?

    Anyway, it won’t take until end of ASOS for my certainty to drop — if we don’t get a scene or two of her rummaging through papers, eavesdropping, manipulating more than just Tyrion, having curious conversations with Varys, claiming to be the daughter of a trader, and/or being otherwise devious and mysterious in Season 2, then I’ll get ready to archive the theory in the crackpot drawer come Season 3. If we do get those kind of scenes, however, then D&D have obviously decided to significantly diverge from the books — and there’s a reason for it.

  209. KG
    Posted July 4, 2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Brad,

    No Jaime?

    SHUN THE UNBELIEVER!

    ShunnnnNNNNNNNnnnNnNnnNnnn …

  210. Hot Pie
    Posted July 5, 2011 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Steve the Pirate: I can see Jon breaking his vows completely with sex as being a good place to end a season for him.

    hehe, yeah: Jon’s breaking his vows completely with sex all over the damn place in book 3 : P — but hey, so do, like, half of the brothers in the night’s watch (and on a regular basis, too)…honestly, what’s really guilt-tripping the poor kid is not the fact that he’s finally getting some, but rather that he’s fallen in love with her (although in Jon’s case, he probably wouldn’t engage in the former without first experiencing the latter), which is presumably what the whole ‘father no children’ part of the oath was actually supposed to be preventing. Love, as Maester Aemon was kind enough to point out to us, is death to duty.

  211. 2whom?
    Posted July 6, 2011 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings,

    Not sure I see how you can accomplish this, since Benjen is still missing at the end of Book 4, whereas Qhorin is definitively deceased.

  212. tysnow
    Posted July 10, 2011 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Just want to add a name I and others have mentioned before as a viable Melisandre actor, with all going on I forgot one of my top picks, Carice Van Houten, she is stunning in a regal way not hollywoodish, awesome figure, extremely talented (similar vein to Helen Mirren), she conveys all the traits of Mel, even an exotic accent but in a deep smooth way (just like Mel), she wouldn’t come cheap, she is much in demand in European films. She played a similar role in Bean’s Black Death (she stole the show when onscreen) which is what the actress that is cast will be required to accomplish.

  213. sjwenings
    Posted July 10, 2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    2whom?: Not sure I see how you can accomplish this

    Well, as I said, I don’t really see it working out either. But missing does not equal alive.

  214. wulfhund
    Posted July 10, 2011 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Shane Armstrong,

    Hmm… one major love story was left out above, how about Pia and the Pillory? After all she gets alot more lines than Ros in the books, would be a shame to leave her out, she helps show that Jaime isn’t truly the monster everyone thinks he is later on, not to mention how her story helps define just how brutal Hoat, the mountain and Bolton really are.

  1. [...] what’s going on and you lose touch with the central characters.Read more from Benioff and Weiss at this link. Posted on June 30, 2011 by Andrew Sims Tweetrelated posts ‘Game of Thrones’ [...]

  2. [...] “Game of Thrones” writer/producers David Benioff and Dan Weiss tease that the second season of the hit HBO show will be “the season of the love story”. [via Winter Is Coming] [...]

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