The Final Cut: Season Two
By Winter Is Coming on in Casting, Speculation.

AxeFilming on Thrones is set to wrap in Northern Ireland tomorrow, after which there will be only a few weeks of “beyond the Wall” filming in Iceland. With the casting of Rattleshirt, that contingent of characters has now been filled. So I think we can say with assurance that the season two cast for Game of Thrones is now complete.

However, those who’ve read A Clash of Kings may notice some prominent characters absent from the cast list. Let’s take a look at those characters and discuss whether we think we will see them eventually, or if they are at risk of (gulp) being cut from the series entirely.

Edmure & Hoster Tully: Well, as we speculated, the Trout looks to be out of season two. Recent reports of filming confirms this as Jaime remains a captive of Robb within his war camp; he’s not being held in the Riverrun dungeons. I suspect that season three will open with Robb and Co. arriving at Riverrun, setting the stage for the introduction of Hoster, and more importantly, Edmure Tully.

Brynden “Blackfish” Tully: But what about the Blackfish? The Blackfish is a fan favorite character, so his exclusion from season one was met with some disappointment. Now it looks like he will sit out season two as well. The big question on everyone’s mind now is, will we ever get to see the Blackfish? We have to have an Edmure and Hoster is a small role, easy to cast and include without eating up much screen time. But the Blackfish is the type of peripheral role that could theoretically be cut to save time and to keep the focus on the primary characters. We will have to continue to wait to find out the Blackfish’s ultimate fate.

Jojen & Meera Reed: Ah yes, the Reed siblings. Next to the Blackfish, these have been the most talked about “missing” characters. We’ve been waiting and hoping they would make an appearance in season two, but with filming in Northern Ireland set to wrap tomorrow, it doesn’t look like that is going to happen. Still, I wouldn’t give up hope of ever seeing the siblings just yet (I’m looking at you, Julian Walker). I have a feeling the Winterfell plot line may end up being extended into season three, meaning we should get to see our little crannogmen next season.

Reek: And the main reason I think that is because we have had no word on the casting of this character, “Reek” (you book readers should know why I used quotes there). I really can’t see any way they could cut this character without massive changes to the story. So unless they have mysteriously cast this character and aren’t telling us (doubtful, as our spies would have ratted them out by now), I feel pretty confident in saying we will get our Reek next season.

Vargo Hoat: I think we will get a Vargo eventually, he’s too colorful and important a character to cut, but delaying his introduction to season three shouldn’t be too problematic.

Strong Belwas: Another fan favorite character who, like the Blackfish, could face the ultimate cut. Although he is also a colorful and distinct character, he really doesn’t serve a purpose in the story (Vargo has a pretty large role to play). He could still make it in for season three, but if I had to make a wager, I would say he’s out.

Mandon Moore: Any reason the already-cast Meryn Trant couldn’t fill Mandon Moore’s role? Not that I can see. Moore is probably out.

Qyburn: Like his Brave Companion counterpart Vargo Hoat, I suspect this ex-maester will be introduced next season.

Big Walder & Little Walder Frey: Since we have no word of casting on the Walders in Winterfell, I’m assuming these completely superficial characters will be cut from the show.

Queen Selyse, Shireen & Patchface: If they appear at all, they will be featured extras this season. These roles may then get recast later on, if necessary.

Lollys, Falyse & Lady Stokeworth: Same as above.

Mance Rayder: He doesn’t appear until book three, so look for him next season.

Winter is Coming: I know there will be people disappointed in some of these cuts. But if they are reshaping the story the way I think they are, we should still get all the characters we love, just joining the story in a slightly different way.


166 Comments

  1. Bayrat
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Boo on the Reeds not being in season 2. And is there any word on Big and Little Walder?…and first

  2. John
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    The biggest cuts that I have problem with are the Reeds and Reek . I just hope that you are right and they are introduced next season cause if they are cut definitely then I would like to evaluate whether I would want to spend my time watching this show anymore .

  3. Chris Berez
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    So does this mean they’re pushing the sacking and razing of Winterfell to Season 3? That’s a major event at the end of Clash. They have enough to deal with in Season 3 to push that much story from the second book into the next season. Or are we thinking that Season 2 may end just end with Theon sacking Winterfell? It could still happen, but without the Reeds, we lose Jojen’s prophetic dream, which would be a shame.

    Oh well. They did such an excellent job with the first season. I just need to try and have faith that they know what they are doing.

  4. Winter Is Coming
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Bayrat: Boo on the Reeds not being in season 2. And is there any word on Big and Little Walder?…and first

    Forgot about the Walders. We haven’t heard anything, so I’m assuming they are cut. I added them to the post. Thanks!

  5. Magnus
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Spacing the introduction of characters out over the seasons a little more makes a lot of sense. Especially for characters like Reek and Qyburn who only really become important later on. I mean, Reek is pretty important in the second book, but casting a good actor for the role and expecting them to be available again in two years is a risk. I don’t really care if the Reeds are cut entirely. They don’t seem to be that important in the long run.

  6. Ali
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Pretty pissed about Edmure, Blackfish, Hooster and Riverrun not being involved at all.

  7. tek
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    ::puts on flame retardant jacket (to protect from Reed supporters), pulls up a chair, and grabs some smores materials::

  8. Nick Larter
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    What about some of the castings that are still unconfirmed, but which were previously reported, Black Lorren springs to mind immediately, but I recall (maybe erroneously) that there were one or two others as well. Will you be adding them to the S2 cast page with an ‘unconfirmed’ marker or are you going to wait to the official cast list from HBO is released?

  9. Winter Is Coming
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter, yeah, those are kind of in limbo where HBO hasn’t confirmed them officially but they are almost certainly in (the High Septon was another one of these roles). If HBO doesn’t release an official cast list at some point, I will have to add them to the cast page as ‘unofficial.’

  10. Brad Villane
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    I’ve got a feeling that it’s gonna be Osha that takes Bran to the wall and serves the purpose of the Reeds. Could have some crazy ripple effects, like what becomes of Rickon, and ultimately Davos.

    You could get through season 2 without Reek, though I’m none too happy about it. The Dreadfort men that he commands could still show up when Rodrick is at the gate, kill him, sack Winterfell and take Theon hostage…then we meet Ramsay in a later season. Wouldn’t change that much.

    Still gonna miss a lot of these characters

  11. Kammich
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I am not one to get worked up about the removal of periphery characters, because the writing staff(s) are capable enough to find creative solutions. However, I am a bit surprised about the lack of the Reeds, and–to a lesser degree–Selyse. None of them really directly effect anything in season 2, but I think they’re pretty important to the development of other core characters.

  12. The Rabbit
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    I am pretty sure you are right about the Tullys. I have been thinking of that possibility for few months. Blackfish included.
    Great minds think alike ;)
    Reeds – I think they are out. Osha will retake their role – all along to the Wall – then Bran and Hodor will go beyond the Wall, Osha and Rickon to Skaagos.
    Cutting Reek seemed a big problem to me, until we heard the rumour of Roose being sent to WF by Robb.
    I still think that could work for Theon storyline, but at the same time it would complicate Robb s storyline and most notably events surrounding Red Wedding.
    Other characters you mentioned above are probably cut out (I was sneaking a bit around croatians extras – there was no sign of Lollys and her mother during the filming of the riot)

  13. Knurk
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    You think there is a chance HBO wants to keep a few characters under wraps? Or is it really safe to assume all these characters are out?

    I can’t understand they would cut an easy role like Strong Belwas. They just need a huge dude who now and then blurts out an epic oneliner. Probably the only character that could create some comic relief in the desolate place that is Essos. Let’s hope Irri gets more screentime if Belwas is indeed out.

  14. Ahorwitt
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Chris Berez, yes, I do not believe W-I-C’s interpretation for this reason. The burning of Winterfell is the natural conclusion of ACOK. Ending it earlier does not make sense. It all builds up to the juxtaposition of Theon’s downfall with the revelation of Bran’s survival and his departure north.

  15. Ripley
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Well, I for one won’t miss the Reeds at all if they’ve been axed.

  16. Magnus
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    If Roose is the one to go to Winterfell and then burns it, it will be no surprise at all that he is a traitor. The viewers will expect him to betray Robb when/if he comes back south in season 3 for that wedding. I think it is more likely that the rumor is caused by him traveling through Winterfell on his way south in the beginning of season 2, just like several other vassals of Robb actually did in CoK when they were called south to bolster Robb’s forces. This will give us some time to get aquainted with him before he ends up in Harrenhal. It will also give Bran something to do in the early season.

  17. Mirri Maz
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Doesn’t Strong Belwas only appear in the last part of Dany’s storyline? if so he could be anyone introduced for a few scenes and then they can expand on his role in the next season if they want.

    The Reeds are important to Bran’s part of the story, unless like someone else said they use Osha and send Rickon with someone else from Winterfell to hide him but that has to do with what G.R.R has in plan for him.

  18. Winterdark
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    So basically nothing interesting is gonna happen in Winterfell. Bran is gonna sit there not having dreams or trying to escape from psychopathic servants who are not really servants. He is simply gonna be sitting there, bored stiff and us with him for a whole season. I’m really sorry, usually I’m all up for moderateness and keeping an open mind but in all honesty: this stinks! They squandered the chance of having some really cool scenes and one of the greatest villains ever! Very dumb move imo

  19. Ivan Popić
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    If all this cuts are made I wonder what will they do with Winterfell in season 2.

    Without Reeds, Walders and sacking all that is left is Bran hosting the harvest feast and direwolves being locked up in Godswood. Oh wait, they were locked up because of Walders anyway.

  20. dizzy_34
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    So if all this speculation is true, there will essentially be NOTHING going on in Winterfell in season 2? (Besides Greendreams and “Come into my Castle” games). Poor Hodor and Bran…
    LOL…or what the last three posters said.

  21. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    The only ones I wouldn’t be sorry to see missing are the Walders haha.

    Also, happy birthday to Harry Lloyd!

  22. Johnny E
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    John,

    I agree. The Reeds, Tullys, Reek and Vargo must appear at some point or they’ve changed the story too much to forgive. The first season was perfect with very few story changes and nothing of any great importance cut. It makes me wonder if they plan on splitting up Storm of Swords. If that’s the case, perhaps they’re planning on pushing a portion of Clash of Kings into next season and ending Season 3 about 3/4 of the way through Storm (Ending with the RW perhaps). This would make sense because Storm of Swords is big and telling all the stories of that book would be nearly impossible in one season.

  23. Charisse
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Winter, they posted an actual set photo at MGOT – some extras in heavy gear on a boat. We need official speculation on what it is! http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2011/11/17/extras-say-the-darnedest-things.html

  24. Kevin
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Bayrat,

    Hey guys, don’t get discouraged. Seasons 3 and 4 will cover book 3 and possibly some of Feast.

    What does that tell? They can add an hour or two that they can move from Season 2 to Season3 and then an hour or so of season 3 to season 4.

    They are just shuffling the deck a bit due to the immensity of this book so I am sure that the Reeds will be in this story.

  25. Julian Walker
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    I’m gonna keep sayin’ it until it becomes a T-shirt or when they are actually cast in damn show:

    WHERE THE FUCK ARE MY REED SIBLINGS?!?!

  26. Donkeymagic
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    The good news through is Sahara Knight is back. 3 episodes and one with dialogue according to her model mayhem page.

  27. TJ Flynn
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    I would be disappointed if they cut the Reeds, Belwas, and of course Blackfish, (maybe even big and little Walder Frey), but I would be legitimately upset if they somehow cut Reek out of it; that’s one of the (admittedly many) story lines/twists in the book I liked the best. Theon’s vast transformation was absolutely fascinating to me, and a seemingly further transformation in future books that I am anxiously anticipating.

  28. userj
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I think we’ll have Belwas. He’s too much fun to cut. No reason to introduce him now, though – just have him be there when they reach the ships, or join up after they reach Meereen.

    I do wonder if they cut him what Arstan’s cover story would be. I suppose he could just be a mysterious sellsword sent by Illyrio or something.

  29. Zack
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I hope they just give the Reeds’ material to Osha.
    But why cut Belwas? his role is so small that the show wouldn’t be affected either way as far as plot, but I would think HBO would hope to have those kinds of peripheral characters that add that spice to the proceedings. Belwas is so badass and funny! I’ll stay hopeful he’ll be in there, because they did cast a Dolorous Edd, and Belwas importance to the story is about on that level.

    I also hope we get to see the Blackfish eventually. That’s not looking very likely though :(

  30. Assunta
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Julian Walker: I’m gonna keep sayin’ it until it becomes a T-shirt or when they are actually cast in damn show: WHERE THE FUCK ARE MY REED SIBLINGS?!?!

    Julian Walker, you win. All this time I have taken a vaguely smug attitude of “calm down, grasshopper, it shall come to pass” to your Reed rants. Well, you are vindicated and I am an ass.

    No Reeds? Seriously, HBO?? Seriously???

    SIGN ME UP FOR THAT DAMN T-SHIRT!!!!

  31. Ripley
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Bugger the Reeds, bugger them with a spear!

  32. Jess
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    This list is depressing… lol I’ll really miss the Reeds and Blackfish (and the other Tullys). I feel like if they’re not doing the Winterfell scenes (since the Reeds and the Walders weren’t cast), we don’t need Reek either. Sigh… I wonder how they’re adapting season 2/3 from book 2/3.

  33. Winterdark
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Even if they move Reek and the Reeds to season 3 that still leaves Bran with nothing to do for season 2. Yes he’ll host a feast, during which he’ll meet noone interesting because they’ve all been cut. *sighs* *shakes head*

    Oh and Osha is no Jojen and certainly no Meera. Won’t work replacing the siblings with her. Besides there is the blatant problem of who is gonna betray and than free Bran if not Osha?, Hodor? I’d like to see that.

  34. shadallion
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Strong Belwas would be great comic relief and I also really would like to see him fight that warrior outside of Yunkai, but alright I guess.

  35. João Amaral
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    When in the end of the post was

    Winter is Coming:

    I was like “Wow, i don’t know that character”. lol so dumb.

  36. Knurk
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    shadallion,

    well that’s season 3 of course, so we continue to hope. And when GRRM announced they were going to film the books back in 2007 this was the one scene that immediately jumped out to me how epic it would be on tv. Hundreds of extra’s taking their dicks out and pissing of a wall (Paco?), Strong Belwas taking a dump on his slain enemy. Actually, when you think of it I’m probably just a very juvenile kid who likes pee and poop jokes. One of my favourite chapters though, and it’s a Dany one (who would have thought!).

  37. SG
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    I have no problem with most of the cuts. I think Vargo Hoat, Edmure and the Reeds can easily be held back to the third season, and the Blackfish could be talked about but not seen until season four if necessary. But I will be disappointed if we don’t see Reek, because he had such a pivotal role in the final chapters of CoK. It would be a waste of a great season finale cliffhanger if they didn’t include Reek’s arc in season 2. Or perhaps a certain character associated with Reek will have his storyline extended into season 3? That will be tricky to pull off but I can see why they would want to do that for casting purposes.

  38. Julian Walker
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Reeds aside, I am still wondering as to what the hell Bran is going to do for 8 or 9 episodes in season 2? Is he going to be interacting with Osha and Maester Luwin mostly? Will we see him struggling to hold down his position as lord of Winterfell? And most importantly of all, will the 3 eyed crow return once more?
    Besides Osha replacing the Reeds won’t make much sense cuz she does not want to go towards the Wall. She even retreated from the Wall because of the Others, so going back towards it would not make any sense.

    Oh yeah, and someone remind me cuz its been awhile since I’ve read Clash, who is the lord of Harrenhal? I know Janos Slynt gets demoted by Tyrion, so who takes his place?

  39. Knurk
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    If Bran turns out to be doing nothing that would be a major waste of acting talent from Isaac. His “I wish I was dead” line gave me the most goosebumps of the entire season last year.

  40. Brett
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    1. Cutting the Tullys until next season makes sense, although it bothers me that they might introduce Edmure at the last minute, just in time for him to go to the Red Wedding and get captured. It would seem so pointless, like introducing a character just to make the plot continue. They might as well just cut them completely.

    2. I was hoping the Reeds would survive, but I doubt they will. What we’ll most likely get is Bran, Hodor, Rickon, and Osha heading north to the Wall. At that point, Bran and Hodor will head north with Coldhands, and Rickon and Osha will head off to parts unknown. Of course, you would have to come up with some reason why Rickon-Osha don’t just head over to Castle Black and Jon Snow.

    3. Cutting “Reek” is really strange. He’s a key component of the second book’s plot. How do they actually plan to have the adapted second season work out without him?

    4. Mance actually does appear in Book Two.

    I suspect that this means Season Two is going to be Super-Tyrion-centric, along with a far larger role for Robb and Jaime. The book already has Tyrion as the central character (he has more POV chapters in it than any other character in A Clash of Kings), but the show will probably take that even further.

  41. clemintine
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    Who’s going in the Frey Pie now?

  42. Brett
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    clemintine:
    Who’s going in the Frey Pie now?

    The Freys in the Frey Pie were only introduced in A Dance with Dragons, so cutting the Walders is no big deal.

  43. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    I’m okay with all of this if it is just getting pushed back rather than removed entirely. I thought Winter’s summary of how that might go down from a few posts ago was very well-done and made a strong case for it.
    That said, when I think about the fact that Robb was a massive non-entity for me in the books (and kind of last season too tbh, not that that’s meant as an insult to Richard Madden), I’m a bit disappointed to be getting more Robb and his wars instead of more everyone else. In a lot of ways, what all of this does is sacrifice much of Catelyn’s depth, history and character development, and though I was never a massive Catelyn fan, she is a much more central character than Robb is. From a television perspective it makes sense that they would want to flesh out Robb’s off-page storyline a bit, but at the same time he is one of GRRM’s least well-drawn characters, and I think part of that is intentional storyline-wise, since the focus is meant to shift from Traditional Male Lead (Ned) to the variety of chief protagonists we find in Clash. Thinking about it, it does actually change the tone of the story quite a lot.

  44. Mormegil
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Charisse: Winter, they posted an actual set photo at MGOT – some extras in heavy gear on a boat. We need official speculation on what it is! http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2011/11/17/extras-say-the-darnedest-things.html

    Iron Islanders I would guess.

    Speaking of which, There’s no mention of Victorian and Aeron (Damphair) Greyjoy being cut in the orginal post.

    I wonder if Brans story will become more mystical with Bloodraven talking to him more directly either through the TEC or the Godswood.

  45. Julian Walker
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    2. I was hoping the Reeds would survive, but I doubt they will. What we’ll most likely get is Bran, Hodor, Rickon, and Osha heading north to the Wall. At that point, Bran and Hodor will head north with Coldhands, and Rickon and Osha will head off to parts unknown. Of course, you would have to come up with some reason why Rickon-Osha don’t just head over to Castle Black and Jon Snow.

    You see this is not cool, man. I just cannot dig Osha, Hodor, and Rickon going north to the Wall. Besides, doesn’t Rickon have something to do with Davos being in White Habor in Book 5? If they really want to include the Reeds, then they can just show up in season 3. Have them go to Winterfell to swear fealty to Bran, but find that the place has been sacked by the Boltons or whatever, then have them track Bran down, meet up with him and do all the green sight stuff and the story exposition ect.

    Makes more sense than just cutting them. Besides, so folks on Westeros mentioned this….child actors would be alot cheaper to cast than having Natalia Tena replace the Reeds. She is a Harry Potter actor and undoubtedly cost more in terms where they might place her in the story. A few unknown kids for Jojen and Meera is a bit cheaper.

  46. Eggtar
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    What about the Old Bear’s raven? I was sooo upset when he was not cast for the 1st season of GOT. I almost decided to boycott HBO for life, but then I held on to the slim hope that maybe, just maybe they would cast him for the second season. Things are not looking good my friends, I tell ya!!! “Corn, corn, corn”. HBO’s budget is probably to tight to go out and hire the best raven actor in the Seven Kingdoms. You’d have to be a very talented raven indeed to pull off that line!!! Crows are cheaper, maybe they can afford a crow?

  47. Ryan E
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    The only one I’d miss is Edmure, assuming the post is right about who would be pushed back to next season, and all the assumptions make perfect sense to me. But I think it makes sense to put off the Riverrun story and focus on Robb. Honestly I think the Reeds have the potential to come off as hokey on TV so I wouldn’t be at all surpised or bothered if they are eliminated. I think they can push some of the Winterfell Season 2 stuff back to Season 3, as ASOS will be a two season book with some AFFC and ADWD moved into Season 4.

  48. Maxwell James
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    For those concerned about the Reeds:

    One thing they could do is have Bran & company go south at the beginning of season 3, to Greywater Watch. There he could meet the Reeds – including Howland if they want to mindfuck us bookfans – and learn that he actually must go north beyond the Wall. Since they plan on spreading the events of ASOS over two seasons, this would add some extra meat to his storyline.

  49. Julian Walker
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    How would Bran know to go to Greywater Watch though?

  50. Jim Cross
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Just a random thought, but what if the Reeds discovered Bran and Co in the crypts at the beginning of season 3

  51. val
    Posted November 17, 2011 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Child actors would be cheaper, but I suppose that you can’t keep an actress like Natalia Tena on hold for who knows how many years (assuming she and Rickon are coming back at some point). I guess they could show us what they’re doing and take some shock away from the Manderly thing in DWD, but if there is anything going on in Osha’s journey at all, they’d actually be spoiling stuff that isn’t even in the books yet. It really sucks too if they’re sending the Reeds to season 3 though. That last scene of CoK would have been great as the season’s last, it’s a real shame. Reek could be played by an extra now and “really cast” next season.

  52. Ser Raybat
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Somehow the Winterfell scenes with Bran need to be included, and the Reeds being vital. Reek and the Frey brothers can be show up like how Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen were portrayed in the ending of season 1. Unless they alter the storylines where Maester Luwin can play the roles of the Reeds… or Hodor learns to speak!

  53. Ava
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    I’m actually most upset about Strong Belwas…and I have no idea why. Of course, he doesn’t appear until the veeeeery end, so there’s a good chance he could still show up. Maybe they’ll just bump it back a bit.

  54. Bayrat
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    I’m sorry, but how can you have Bran traveling North of the Wall without any talk of Green Dreams. There is absolutely no way they can substitute Osha for the Reeds. Out of the Blackfish, Strong Belwas, and the Reeds, the Reeds play a more important role in the story line. I will be livid if they are cut out of the series. And having them survive the burning at Winterfell just sounds stupid to me. All these people die and two kids make it out unscathed Lets hope they are just waiting to reveal things later.

  55. Nimble Dick
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    BullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshit
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    BullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshitBullshit

    HBO why dont you jest get rid of Deny altogether, have Bran really killed, Riverrun never exist and just put Littlefinger and his whores on the Throne.

    This is total and complete bullshit

  56. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I actually love this idea.

  57. G_Lee
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    It Would make no sense to let Osha take the Reeds part. She makes her introduction in season 1 telling us how badly she wants to go as far South as possible… Now she’s supposed to head back North? People wouldn’t understand. What about Rickon anyways?

  58. Marco
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    How can people complain about the little things in this show, when all together this is some awesome series they’ve made. The fact that they even made a series based on the books is like a dream come true, minor plot elements and characters missing don’t matter when the main aspects of the story are the same.

  59. Razha
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    I think all the ideas in this article do make sense.
    I also think part of the events of the ACOC will be pushed to Season3, while the events of ASOS will be split between Seasons 3 and 4.

    In this Case you can keep almost all the characters:
    – Tullys, Reeds, Hoat, – all can be pushed to season 3

    Reeds:
    1 – may arrive to WF already after it is taken over by Theon (they had vision or something… or even they might get there with the intension to help Bran and Rikon )escape

    or

    2 – Bran and co might meet Reeds already after escaping (as some people already mentioned here)

    Little Freys, Tanda family – could be extras, Strong Belvas too

    but for Belvas I have an alternative idea as well – Denny might meet him later, in different circumstances (astapor, mereen?)

    As to Selise and her daughter – they might be extras… or they might be suggested to be elsewhere – so they could arrive to join camp Staniss in later seasons.

    As to Winterfell
    I think season 2 coul end with Theon taking WFover
    Season 3 could end with burning wf and escape of kids, and in that case
    the journey of Bran will be taking place in season 4 ending with meeting either Sam, Coldhands or Three-eyed craw

  60. Zach
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    I’m really confused. What is WIC proposing happens to Bran’s story in this Reekless, Reedless scenario?

    All signs point to Roose taking the Ramsay role. He doesn’t need to be at the Red Wedding at all. He doesn’t need to be at Harrenhal at all. This changes nothing for future events, and makes the Winterfell story nice and compact. Better, I dare suggest, than the book version.

  61. Brett
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Zach: Reedless scenario?

    All signs point to Roose taking the Ramsay role. He doesn’t need to be at the Red Wedding at all. He doesn’t need to be at Harrenhal at all. This changes nothing for future events, and makes the Winterfell story nice and compact. Better, I dare suggest, than the book version.

    No, it doesn’t make any sense. Roose is one of Robb’s biggest banner-men in terms of soldiers (probably the biggest), and an experienced war leader. There’s no way he’s going to be hanging around in the North while his men run around in the South with Robb, and that means that he can’t do the Reek/Ramsay role without it looking kind of stupid.

    Besides, you can’t really merge the characters of Roose and Ramsay without it being very strange. One is a cold-blooded but calculating leader, while the other is a full-blown psychopath who hunts women with dogs for sport.

  62. Razha
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    I know this is quite a bit far-fetched but what if
    they let Theon play Prince of Winterfell a little longer? Here is what I mean
    End of season 2 – Theon Takes over WF no reeds, freays or reek are seen yet
    Seaon3 – Theon tries to play a “good new ruler” role, so he gains some (little) support) and it is him who arrests the ‘reek’ not Rodrik Cassel, then whe get a season 3 of interactions between Theon, children, reek etc… ending with escape

    also about keeping Nathalia Tena busy untill Davos finds them:
    The stark kids might travel to the North together during teh Season4 and split only at the end of season – Bran and co going north, and Osha /weekon east

  63. Louisa
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    The Frey brothers weren’t mentioned in Walder Frey and Catelyn’s conditions last season (heh, heh) so from there I just assumed they were not going tobe included in the next season.

    Is it too muchhope to hope that the Reeds would atill be included? Maybe they kept thecasting a secret.

  64. Mario Mjoed
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    this is weird. i mean.. to throw away the whole jojen / meera / bran dynamic is… just… :( it actually makes me sad. i SO wanted to see them suffering, learning and travelling together. those could have been some really great scenes. and they maybe throwing away the only real love story in the whole series.

  65. Tar Kidho
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    Knurk:
    If Bran turns out to be doing nothing that would be a major waste of acting talent from Isaac.

    Totally agree with that! If anything, they should be looking into EXTENDING his storyline…

  66. Zach
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    Brett: No, it doesn’t make any sense. Roose is one of Robb’s biggest banner-men in terms of soldiers (probably the biggest), and an experienced war leader. There’s no way he’s going to be hanging around in the North while his men run around in the South with Robb, and that means that he can’t do the Reek/Ramsay role without it looking kind of stupid.

    Besides, you can’t really merge the characters of Roose and Ramsay without it being very strange. One isa cold-blooded but calculating leader, while the other is a full-blown psychopath who hunts women with dogs for sport.

    First, whoa, quoting exposes spoilers like whoa.

    Second, yes it makes sense. You understand that everything you just stated about Roose is completely arbitrary, right? Do you really think scriptwriters sit around going over minutia like who has X amount of bannermen? No. They sit around and figure out how to tell the most emotionally compelling story. “Dovetailing” (taking two characters and merging them for better storytelling rhythm), in the case of AGOT, is king.

    Think about it this way. The book’s Winterfell story involves a LOT of unnecessary characters when the real heart of that story is Theon’s betrayal and subsequent fall. All that stuff about Ramsay marrying Whats Her Name and Reek getting captured and turning into Ramsay is just way too much to cram into the show. So instead of shoehorning in all that nonsense that is only going to bloat the emotional heart of the story, they cut it down to the bare bones. THAT is smart screenwriting.

  67. Rose Sathmantes
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    Pardon my interruption, first time poster, lurker since forever; all these talk of Osha taking over from the Reeds and accompanying Bran and Rickon north is just depressing for yours truly. I mean, what about Maester Luwin’s dying wish?

    “Listen,” Luwin said to Osha, “the princes…Robb’s heirs. Not… not together…do you hear?” The wildling woman leaned on her spear. “Aye. Safer apart. But where to take them? I’d thought, might be these Cerwyns…” (A Clash of Kings p 967)

  68. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    I think they’re going to ditch the whole “Reek” aspect of Ramsay’s storyline and introduce him in season 3 when he sacks Winterfell.

    My guess is Ser Rodrik will make mention of his depravities at some point, and Theon, rather than Robb, will condemn him to death after he takes over, as a show of goodwill to the people, but no one will ever bring him to justice. So when he shows up during S3 and parlays at Winterfell, Rodrik will tell him that all will be forgiven so long as he assists in defeating the Ironmen and helps retake Winterfell… at which point Ramsay will chop off his arm and turn against the Northmen. But rather than opening the gates, Theon will try to resist in a futile effort but will be taken captive by Ramsay (i.e. the very same man he condemned to death, and could not capture).

  69. Blood
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:57 am | Permalink

    What about Qhorin Halfhand? Has he been cast and I missed it or is he seriously going to be a nameless extra? He can’t really be pushed to S3 since Ygritte has been cast.

  70. Marco
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 4:00 am | Permalink

    Blood:
    What about Qhorin Halfhand? Has he been cast and I missed it or is he seriously going to be a nameless extra? He can’t really be pushed to S3 since Ygritte has been cast.

    Halfhand has been cast.

  71. Butze
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    Who cares about Reeds or Walders anyway. These characters killed the whole Bran storyline for me (well, I have not read ADWD yet… up till now it’s really boring reading about that warg-cripple).

  72. Sarah
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    Julian Walker,

    I am with you, I love them two as they add a real dynamic to Bran and also the blossoming relationship that bran has towards Merra Also even though I have not read ADWD purely due to the fact I am a little nervous about what will happen I am sure that they have the biggest part to play in the last two books.
    I want my siblings and if I do not get them one person here will not be happy.

    On a lighter note I take back what I said about Oona playing “Jeyne” through the picture I am starting to see a different look to her and what she might do, I am thinking it will work out better

  73. Shinyteapot
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    Losing the Walders is no big deal, the only interesting note they related to was the dream about who gets which piece of meat. Which is nice, but not hugely important.

    Putting off the Tullys (hopefully including Blackfish) and Vargo Hoat I can live with, though I think it’s important we get to know Edmure a bit before a certain event. However I will be very upset if Catelyn and Robb are in the same place when they receive bad news (which has to happen to give them motivation for their actions) as I think it’s important to both that they make those decisions without the other around. Robb is still young and it shows in the choice he makes when he doesn’t have his mother to give advice. And Catelyn might not be so rash in trying to help her other children if Robb were there to talk to her.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to lose the Reeds, or have them (or one of them) turn up next series and swap roles with Osha. So much has been said about how everyone loves Tena as Osha that I imagine they’d want to keep her on screen as much as possible. It would be a shame, but equally it could work if written well.

    I really hope Belwas appears! He’d only be in one scene this series so could perhaps have been cast without spies noticing. I hope so. He’s too cool to miss out.

    And even more so I hope Reek has been cast without our knowledge. It’s possible that all the extras are keeping quiet under pain of no work next series- and to keep a good surprise for the rest of us? While I’m sure a way around could be found without him, I don’t think I’d find it satisfying.

  74. loco73
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Oh boy here we go again…let see what will stand in the way of enjoying the show this time around…what, is one of the characters not whipping his arse according to the novels?…

  75. Elena Amici
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    John: The biggest cuts that I have problem with are the Reeds and Reek

    this. I don’t care THAT much about the Reeds, because they ARE going to be in the show sooner or later (the Reeds or some other character doing exactly the same things) and that’s a given. I can wait for the Reeds.

    But i WANT my Reek (wow, i sound like Ramsay here). I NEED my Reek. How can the plot work without him? I feel confident though.

    Maybe they casted and didn’t tell us. Maybe. Maybe S2 will end with theon taking winterfell and Reek is going to be only a featured extra playing a stinking prisoner. This would also solve the Reeds problem. I think it could actually happen. What do you think?

    PS:

    loco73:
    Oh boy here we go again…let see what will stand in the way of enjoying the show this time around…what,is one of the characters not whipping his arse according to the novels?…

    This. I think we all realize they HAVE to change the story at some point. If the show is different from the books, but it’s still good..what’s the problem? Why should you stop watching it?
    I think GoT is amazing, and I’m going to enjoy it anyway, even if they’re going to change the story. I think it could actually be an improvement from the books
    (i DID like Feast – and Dance – but i think GRRM could have written those books better).

  76. biliki
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    My biggest issue is with the Reeds.

    But if they are planning to have them in season three, I’m fine!

  77. Dreamlife
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    Here is why it doesn’t make sense for Hodor and Bran to split off from Osha and Rickon and go to the Wall together: Hodor can’t hold up a conversation. It will be the two of them walking in silence, or Bran complaining aloud, or talking to himself, or worse: a voiceover of what’s going through Bran’s mind. The benefit of having the Reeds is they could talk through their plans so you had an idea of what to expect, or at least what they were hoping for. I am hoping D & D have a good solution for removing the Reeds from the story if that’s what they are doing…

  78. Epic Wunderscheisse
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    I’m glad they cut the Reeds. Not only are they way too magical but boiled down in a tv show this would be too obvious:

    Robb whispers sweet nothings to his Jeyne who plays hard to get.
    Cut to Beyond the Wall
    Jon does googly eyes across the room to the sun kissed lass.
    Cut to nondescript road
    Brann’s face flushes bright red when Ms Reed catches him looking

    There’s a war on, boys. Your poor sisters are mentally and emotionally being tortured.

    PS my theory is that Osha and Hodor are going to start a family of their own beyond the wall and will join the efforts to rebuild wildling tent communities after the war. They will pronounce Hodor their king and live a long life in Newfoundfreeland after defeating Stannis, enslaving Meliz Andree, and conquering a mostly undefended Westeros (as the houses have decimated their own armies). When Dany Girl and her tree bags full o’ dragons come rollin around on their wooden horses, she will be so delighted that the free folk have taken over westeros that she go back to Asia and live the rest of her days with her sworn colored free servants.

  79. Ryan
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    This is totally off topic.. but I hope that the TV show is able to trick the viewers into thinking that theon actually does kill bran and rickon.. I totally thought that actually went down in the book. It would be a shame if they didn’t do an amazing job portraying this.

  80. purplejilly
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    I think it’s good we talk about this stuff, and get the angst out now. It looks like the further they go into the series, the more they are going to have to change to adapt it for the TV Show. I am trying hard to get myself in the mindset that the show is going to be different from the book, and that storylines will go different ways, characters will be cut, new ones will be added, and try to get my disappointment over with now, so I can enjoy the show for what it is.
    I really had hoped it would stay very close to the book, but with the budget and the limited number of episodes that HBO wants to give to them, they are not going to be able to do that. But I am going to be positive, and enjoy the show for what it will be.

  81. purplejilly
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    Epic Wunderscheisse,
    LOL, I love that line about the boys having too much fun while their sisters are being tortured :)

  82. oracle86
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Knurk:
    You think there is a chance HBO wants to keep a few characters under wraps? Or is it really safe to assume all these characters are out?

    I can’t understand they would cut an easy role like Strong Belwas. They just need a huge dude who now and then blurts out an epic oneliner. Probably the only character that could create some comic relief in the desolate place that is Essos. Let’s hope Irri gets more screentime if Belwas is indeed out.

    Besides, without Strong Belwas, how does “Arstan Whitebeard” make his entrance?

  83. G_Lee
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    How is Bran even supposed to know he has to go beyond the wall without Jojen telling him? As I said, making it Osha’s idea would be nonsense (she wanted to run as far south as possible). I also think that the Reeds would be a great opportunity to introduce the backstory of GoT and the Rhaegar Lyanna thing. I’m sure watchers would want to know how Roberts rebellion came to be in the first place. I’m really happy with the show so far, season 1 was simply perfectly adapted, more than any of us could’ve hoped for so I’m sure they’re gonna make things fine in season 2 as well. So I trust to see the Reeds after the burning of Winterfell, when Osha, Hodor and Bran reappear from the crypts. I can literally see the three of them emerging from that broken door, eyes half-shut because of the light they aren’t used to anymore and seeing the two Reeds standing there, greeting them.

  84. baffled
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    As much as it bothers me, I can see them giving all of Jojen’s stuff to a more talkative three eyed crow in B’s dreams, and possibly giving some to Osha. Eugh.

  85. Fire And Blood
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    I know this goes against conventional purist thought, but there are two major reasons why I think the Tullys, the Reeds, the Walders, Strong Belwas, and all these other non-essentials are being shoved aside.

    Or at least shoved to season three.

    1. Cast size. People. People! Look at the freaking cast. Season one had a record-setting 79 cast members—not including 11 featured extras, which brings the total to 90. No other show has had anything near as sprawling a group, especially given the fact that we only had 10 episodes. 21 characters perished in season one (5 dead featured extras included), leaving us with a carryover of 69 characters for season two. So then you add the 35 news characters (not counting featured extras) for this new season, gifting us with a grand sum of 104 characters we have to find places for in front of the camera—some way, some how—and manage to do it sometime within 10 episodes.

    I don’t run a television show for a living (I only critique them) but I’m not sure some of you realize what a gigantic task this is. Not just from a cohesive storytelling viewpoint, but from a “maintaining viewer interest” viewpoint. New viewers–the non-book readers we oft mock—will be especially put upon to try to remember who is allied with whom, who is friends with who, etc. It’s by no accident that they made Kit Harrington wear a light colored pelt over his blacks. Sure, we knew who he was… but newcomers might not be able to distinguish between one black-cloaked dude and the next. Did it make sense from a story standpoint? No. But sometimes people need visual clues.

    For the non-initiated, it’s gonna be tough trying to figure out who’s who. And so I agree, for the sake of the show’s success—trim the fat.

    2. It really is just 10 episodes. Book 2 was longer than book 1. And yet still—we have only 10 episodes to work with. Contrast that with the fact that we’re almost definitely getting book 3 filmed in TWO ten-episode chunks. This leaves a hell of a lot more leeway where introducing characters (the Reeds) or new locales (Riverrun) is concerned.

    The one character I see as vital who’s still missing is Ramsay Bolton. He really should be the one responsible for the sacking of Winterfell. I would be hard-pressed to create a better villain for that purpose.

    But the rest? Chaff. We have Dany, we have Jon. We have Tyrion, and Catelyn. We have the kids. We have Stannis, Melisandre, Roose Bolton… and the list goes on (and on).

    What else do we need? I mean really need, that we can film in this 10-episode chunk? I’m just asking you to think with your heads here.

  86. plop_
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Amen to that.

  87. Elena Amici
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: For the non-initiated, it’s gonna be tough trying to figure out who’s who.
    And so I agree, for the sake of the show’s success—trim the fat.

    this.

    Fire And Blood:
    The one character I see as vital who’s still missing is Ramsay Bolton

    again, this. I think they’re moving that part of the storyline to s3, as i wrote above. Especially considering that bran doesn’t do anything in Storm. So I think it’s possible that they end the season with theon taking winterfell

  88. Mark Wilson
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I think it’s good we talk about this stuff, and get the angst out now.

    In as much as there has to be any angst, I agree. But the point you end with, and which many people in this post and others repeatedly touch on, is what we should all be doing – enjoying the show for what it is. GRRM has created a great story with colourful characters that we have all enjoyed already. Now D&D et al. and HBO are creating another version of this story, with many familiar faces and scenes for us to enjoy like old friends, but the fact that some plot elements will be missing shouldn’t be treated as a tragedy. They are still there, in the books, where we first encountered them and can always go back to enjoy them on re-reading. On the plus side, some altered or entirely new elements of the story are hugely enjoyable. Much of my enjoyment of the first series was due to such additions: the conversation between Robert and Cersei, Drogo ripping out Mago’s tongue, the Drogo haka-monologue, random banter between Tyrion and Bronn, and lots more. To be honest, if I was given a choice between a more faithful adaptation where every character and line in the show was taken unaltered from the books, and a more dynamic one which takes enough liberties to surprise me (for better as well as for worse)… I think I’d probably plump for the latter.

    Epic Wunderscheisse,
    I enjoy your writing, Epic. Reminds me of John Lennon. A bit less surreal and a bit more cycnical, but I’m guessing you’ve had less LSD during your life, so that makes sense.

  89. Lise Bollum
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Arriving late at the party it seems… I’ll throw in my two cents anyway.

    The size of the cast was a thought that struck me as well, and I believe that we will have some Tullys and Vargo Hoat, at least, next season. These are far too important to skip entirely without large changes to important points in the story. (as most already have mentioned).

    As for the Reeds, I haven’t completely given up, but I think they are a lost cause by now. In fact, I had a slight tingle this might happen already during the first season. Even though the scene was intended for some exposition, I always got a feeling that the fact that Osha knows what really lies beyond the wall was emphasized to such an extent was because she – planned or not at this point – would take the Reeds’ role. And also, up until ADWD, I could see a way this could be pulled off in the long run, but with the information we get in ADWD; I see quite a jumble if the show ever gets that far. Personally, I find it sad, since I’m in fact quite a fan of Bran and his storyline and the chemistry between him and the Reeds, but hopefully, it will work out.

    As for Ramsay Snow/Bolton, this is what surprises me the most. I expect Roose will take his role, but then again, who will be in Harrenhal in season 3? After all, seeing him moving northwards after the most important Harrenhal-events in ACOK could make sense on its own, but then again, there is a certain pivotal conversation in ASOS (readers will know which one I talk about of course) that has such ripple effects throughout the following books that I can’t see them alter that part of the story significantly. Maybe Roose will march north, sack Winterfell, leave the command to Ramsay – who will be a featured extra at this point, and then go back to Harrenhal where Jaime and Brienne eventually will show up in season 3 , but this seems like bad logistics to me.

  90. Ahorwitt
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Elena Amici, There was an NI Extras casting request for a red-haired kid the same age as Rickon. I think that’s a clear indication that we’re getting as far as Theon killing the miller’s kids. Once you’ve got that far you kinda have to reveal that Bran and Rickon are really alive, IMO.

  91. Mormegil
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    The trouble with moving the killing of fakeBran and Rickon and the sacking of Winterfell to Season 3 as some have suggested is that it lessens Catelyns reasons for letting Jaime go which I think we all know will be brought forward to Season 2.

    In the Books she lets Jaime go because she believes Bran and Rickon are dead and she wants her Daughters back but in the show what reason will she have? The Situation will be the same as it was in Season 1, so why didn’t she let him go back then?

  92. Winter Is Coming
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Since a few people have asked, here was my theory on how they might split up the Winterfell storyline into two seasons from a few posts back:

    My own theory which would allow them to skip casting Reek this season goes thusly:

    Dagmer Cleftjaw replaces Reek for this season, in as far as being Theon’s right-hand man while at Winterfell. It is the Cleftjaw that suggests they pretend to have caught and killed Bran and Rickon. The viewers believe they are dead for an episode, maybe two, then we get a glimpse of them in the crypts during the season finale. We also learn from Asha, before she leaves Winterfell to Theon, that Ser Rodrik is coming to take back the castle. So viewers know Theon’s hold is tenuous, Bran and Rickon are still alive and could soon be rescued by Rodrik.

    Season three opens with “Reek” arriving in Winterfell. He claims that Ramsay was killed by Rodrik and he managed to escape. He promises to aid Theon in exchange for his life. Theon is desperate, so he agrees. Add a few scenes of Reek being nasty. When it’s clear that no aid is coming from the Ironborn, Reek offers to head to the Dreadfort for reinforcements. Things then proceed as they happen in the book, with Rodrik arriving in Winterfell, getting killed by Reek/Ramsay, Ramsay then taking Winterfell.

    This allows them to not have to cast Ramsay until season three and solves the problem of Theon and the whole Winterfell storyline being off-screen for two or more seasons.

  93. Chemaslane
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    If they are going to split book 3 in two, they cant afford two seasons with bran only travelling. It seems logical to postpone some events, but they will have to.find another excuse to catelyn letting free jaime

  94. loco73
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Elena Amici,

    My point was that I do agree with them changing the story, while the novels I’m sure are wonderful they are not frigging sacrosanct and can be changed and adapted to serve the TV series. I was making that poor attempt at an ironic comment in anticipation to people’s complaints about various characters or scenes from the books being left out in the next season…

    I will definitely NOT stop watching the show, which is what my whole posting was about…especially not when George RR Martin himself has said repeatedly that he understands why D & D have to change the story, as he himself pointed out based on his own experience working on TV as a writer, that it is one thing to write a novel and another to write a script. There are characters and scenes that simply cannot be included due to budgetary restraints, limited resources, insuring that the show remains viable and gets a long-run etc., but mainly due to a thing most seem to ignore…REALITY! If we had unlimited funds, resources and time, then I guess a literal interpretation of ASOIF would be possible, but reality dictates that such a thing cannot be done…hence it is called an adaptation…

    I do understand that fans of the novels are fierce in their loyalty and are absolutely commited to these wonderful novels, but unfortunately even the best efforts cannot encompass everyone’s wishes and ideas. After all this is D & D’s and HBO’s show, which is remarkable in that Martin is as closely involved with the making of the show as it is possible, a fact for which we should be greatful and thankful…other writers are not so fortunate.

    God, I have lost count how many times I have seen some of my favourite novels and characters being turned into crummy, idiotic and plain out stupid movies and TV shows. Even at best, in most cases all I have too look forward to is mediocrity! The examples are so abundant that I won’t bother listing any…take your pic!

    In the case of “Game Of Thrones” we are very, very, very lucky and fortunate to have a group of people involved in making and producing this show, who are not only top notch, but also committed to the source material, people who actually love the source material and are doing their utmost to please established, long-time fans…but at the same time are trying to open-up the universe of “A Song Of Ice And Fire”, without cheapening the novels or dilluting the story (isn’t this kind of the point…attracting more people to ASOIF and getting it the exposure and recognition it derves?). For my part I think they have done a fabulous job so far, and I for one am not dissapointed in the least!

    If they keep to the essence and spirit of the story as they have done so far (by “they” I mean all the parties involved in “Game Of Thrones”) they should be OK. Is everything perfect? No of course not, but I’m not looking for perfection, I’m looking to be entertained, simulated and thrilled, and in that aspect “Game Of Thrones” has delivered in spades, which is not what most TV programmes can claim these days. Honestly, if you want perfection dont watch the show instead…go boil an eg or take up knitting!

    PS. It is crazy…the fact that even with Martin’s seal of approval, it seems not to be enough for some…and he is the creator of all this for goodness sake! Think about it, if he really wanted to he could take all the novels, piss on them, set them on fire and stop writing for ever…and guess what? It would be his right to do so!

  95. StrongBelwas
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    I have an off-topic related question.

    What happens when two bastards get married and have a child? Does the child get a bastard last name or what?

    Just speculating

  96. dizzy_34
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    The only issue I have with that senerio is it takes away from Reek suggesting they kill the Miller’s kids and flay their faces. That’s the first hint we get at Reek being a major creep. I’m betting on them ending the season with Theon sacking Winterfell and getting a visit from Asha (Yara) telling him the Ironborn aren’t coming to help. How they introduce the Reeds into all that (if they do) is anyone’s guess.

  97. Ahorwitt
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    I am not buying the theory that it will be moved to S3. The two main plotlines of Season 2 are the Battle of the Blackwater and the taking of Winterfell. Jon, Dany, Arya, and Catelyn are all side-stories in comparison. The Blackwater Battle will be settled in episode 9. What, then, is to happen in Episode 10? We need a major cathartic closure scene like the birth of the dragons in Season 1. Jon killing Halfhand doesn’t do the trick because Jon’s arc is not a significant part of this season. Ending the season with the ASOS prologue where the Others appear, as many have suggested, would be “kewl for kewl’s sake” and not make sense in terms of what matters to the overall ACOK story. The burning of Winterfell as Bran and Rickon are revealed alive is the only scene with sufficient gravity to end the season on — sad and yet hopeful, quite powerful. (This is why Martin ended the book with it.) Punting this into next season would be a massive storytelling error for a show that’s made precious few so far.

  98. Mormegil
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    StrongBelwas: I have an off-topic related question.What happens when two bastards get married and have a child? Does the child get a bastard last name or what? Just speculating

    They seem to use a variation of the bastard name for example IIRC there is a character called Longwaters whose grandfather was a Bastard with the name Waters.

  99. G_Lee
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    If HBO tells Martin they can’t do it otherwise he’ll certainly agree unless it ruins his entire story. I’m pretty sure he’d prefer to see his books – the work of his life – getting done not 100% accurate than to see the show canceled after two seasons! And so would I by the way!

  100. Harry The Heir
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    I think That scraping the Burning of winterfell until season 3 is a bad idea. I also don’t like the lack of Tullys and Reeds, i don’t really care about Ramsay as i think Roose could pull of the role and then bring Ramsay in to be a badass season 3. I personally would like to see Ewan McGregor as Edmure Tully!

  101. HonestJerk
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Punting the sacking of Winterfell to season 3 doesn’t make story sense

    BUT

    Have we thought of Alfie Allen? Theon is a non-entity in Book 3; and the TV show is going to take 2 seasons to cover Book 3. Do the Producers want to say goodbye to Alfie Allen for 2 years…?

    Make more sense to give him SOME sort of story in season 3… And the only story he has left is sacking of Winterfell

  102. epic thusly
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    G_Lee,

    I think they bribe GRRM with smoothies whenever he might cause too much a stir. Healthy but delicious California smoothies with kale.

  103. epic thusly
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    HonestJerk: And the only story he has left

    They could do mini-adventures called ‘My hot lesbian sister Yarra and I’. Comedy routines. She’s funny. She’s really funny.

  104. agreeswithwinterfell
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    To add to what Winterfell’s theory:


    I think the producers are going to break up Theon’s arc to further Robb’s arc in season three. Theon is less sympathetic so I imagine the producers will use his downfall more for the shock value than the drama, although I’m sure it will still be dramatic enough.

    But apropos Robb’s arc, it fits in well for season three. D & D have stated numerous times that they want to split book three into two seasons, with the finale of season three ending on a tragic note (clearly they want to end it with the Red Wedding). I suspect the main thrust of that season will be Robb’s downfall. So at the beginning Robb loses his home, then as the season progresses he loses his men and his support and things just get bleaker and bleaker until finally he and his mother and his circle of supporters are slaughtered off.

    That would be depressing as hell for a season lone story, but I think it’s an interesting approach. Could be extremely powerful too.

  105. epic thusly
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    agreeswithwinterfell: more for the shock value than the drama

    Is there a difference, really?

  106. emma
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Reek, Reek…. I want a sneak peek!!!! I NEED this character to be in season 3, he is my fave ‘evil character’.

    Glad there’s no mention of the Walder brothers though, I completely forgot about them!

  107. emma
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Lise Bollum:
    Arriving late at the party it seems… I’ll throw in my two cents anyway.

    As for Ramsay Snow/Bolton, this is what surprises me the most. I expect Roose will take his role, but then again, who will be in Harrenhal in season 3? After all, seeing him moving northwards after the most important Harrenhal-events in ACOK could make sense on its own, but then again, there is a certain pivotal conversation in ASOS (readers will know which one I talk about of course) that has such ripple effects throughout the following books that I can’t see them alter that part of the story significantly. Maybe Roose will march north, sack Winterfell, leave the command to Ramsay – who will be a featured extra at this point, and then go back to Harrenhal where Jaime and Brienne eventually will show up in season 3 , but this seems like bad logistics to me.

    They will have to get Ramsay…. his own personal ‘Reek’ has to save a certain young lady from WF….

  108. Sarah
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    agreeswithwinterfell,

    I really love that idea and it could work perfectly, a way in which we get both the sacking/burning of winterfell and the story continuation into s3 is to have theon taking over winterfell with his own battle, then in the next one have him do his thing and have his own downfall to be the mirror image of Robb’s. Sympathy for Robb joy at seeing Theon loose everything. within this we then get my two favorite characters (reeds) and Ramsey. The interaction between the two going down the route it will take will keep viewers hooked and wanting something nasty to happen. Much in the same way as with Joff, the little git that he is

  109. raegenhere
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Really can’t imagine they would cut the Reeds entirely… they are just too important. Also, I really don’t see why they should… they should be easy too distinguish from the rest of the characters. If Osha would fill their roll, it would give her more screen time… but remember there is a storyline for bran and osha coming up for sure in the following book. I think D&D have a bit of info of what will happen from GRRM, so they can’t screw up too bad.
    I genuiley trust D&D won’t sacrifice such important characters just too save a bit of money on actor salaries or too spare the audience to remember one or two more names.

    The main thing is, its quite difficult too cast important characters for more then one season. It’s better to let a character appaer a bit later, if manageable, instead of having to recast them later on.
    I think its very hard for actors with their schedules… I don’t think the Mountain would have quit this promising series if it wasn’t absolutely important for him.

    Also, I find it a bit sad that WiC.net is now infected with that pointless “first!” thing, I thought this doesn’t happen on more mature communities like I consider this one.
    But as long as people don’t post it without any other content, I remain calm ;)

  110. Shinyteapot
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    agreeswithwinterfell,

    I fear something that depressing, ending on such a low note, may not play well with viewers? I’d end it slightly further into the book.

  111. Zerowolf
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    I think some of these comments miss the point somewhat.
    HBO’s brief is not to faithfully reproduce all the events within the books, rather it is creating an entertainment for it’s subscribers based on the books.
    Having a vast cast list would dilute the budget and confuse the viewer.
    Consider this – if the writers slavishly followed the text of the books there would be no Jaime or Robb in the second series.
    We should focus on what they are bringing in,story wise,not what they are omitting.
    I have faith in their abilities.

  112. Epic The Balls
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    loco73: God, I have lost count how many times I have seen some of my favourite novels and characters being turned into crummy, idiotic and plain out stupid movies and TV shows. Even at best, in most cases all I have too look forward to is mediocrity! The examples are so abundant that I won’t bother listing any…take your pic!

    True, GoT is a new hybrid; crossing the likes of “Penthouse Presents: Caligula” with “Melrose Place”. But, minus the parts of Caligula that make Caligula disturbingly awesome, like ass-fisting someone for no reason at his wedding night. Alas, the audience chuckled and shnortled softly, collectively, not knowing that their hot breath decayed at the fabric of our Game of Thrones melodrama all over the universe. Everytime you laugh at a part of GoT that is not supposed to be funny, a fairy dies. I warned them. Sean Bean, he only muttered something meekly. His wig made him look uncomfortable. Bla bla bla…

    HOWEVER, I want to say that sometimes, if not always, characters in genre fiction are crummy. It takes trying to make them into people before one sees that their fave character is 2d. Books are easier than movies because movies visualize a tiny portion of what you can imagine from a few lines of description. GoT is very popular but for the wrong reason. Far too many people found it amusing.

    Alas GoT is a new hybrid crossing the unlikely chemistry of Heath Ledger’s A Knight’s Tale with the rated PG parts of Flesh Gordon (1974). The audience should have been like whoa that is so gritty and realistic. Like The Sopranos with swords. It should have been like… balls to the wall badassery, blood strewn, manly, boyish, puerile, dirty-hands-before-dinner-dog-nasty, going out with the boys don’t stay up late, territorial pissing and back slapping. 300 but European, less undies, with a New Jersey comic book store sensibility. Alas, they twittered “bla bla bla.. lol”. Ah and now, there is no Reek… are they TRYING to destroy everything I love?

  113. Michael Johnson
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    John,

    Seriously? You would stop watching one of the best written and acted shows on television because the show is not just like the books? Ridiculous.

  114. Violet
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Brad Villane,

    I was thinking the same thing about Bran going to the wall with Osha, I like this idea better anywaysI don’t care for the Reeds so no bother for me if they aren’t cast. (ducks as flaming missiles soar in from Reed fans)

  115. Michael Johnson
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Chris Berez,

    And…the prophetic dream can easily be given to someone else. Problem solved.

  116. persephone88
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    I have just thought of something that has me a bit worried…maybe just wrong speculation on my part, but this non-casting of the Tullys has me wondering.

    You don’t think they’d cut Edmure altogether, do you, and somehow make it Robb marrying Jeyne at the Twins when he goes to apologize to old Walder? I fear in terms of cost that they may cut all the Tullies entirely, including Hoster, and just have the Petyr / Lysa storyline told through exposition by themselves in terms of condensing the story. And that would really stink!

    I fear we may never see Jojen and Meera. It seems that Bran’s storyline has very little left this season. While Jojen and Meera were not my favorites, Jojen’s green dream about the sea rising up was such a critical plot point in book 2. You don’t think they’d give that to Osha and make her the “greenseer” (by some other name)? Also, if no Reek, what will be the culminating event of the season? Reek is such a big plot point – if they give it to Theon, how will that affect his book 4 plotlines?

    And though I know they are tiny parts, I will be very sad indeed if there is no Patchface and Shireen in the opener. I thought Patchface and Shireen were what made that scene realllly creepy / spooky with his predictions, and also helped set up Stannis’s miserable family life on Dragonstone.

    Is there a Dragonstone in the series, or is Stannis going to be put elsewhere for the sake of cost cutting?

    While I liked the show very much, everytime I read about Sahara Knight getting multiple episodes and characters like Vargo Hoat and the Blackfish pushed out, my teeth start to grind. I am wondering if Ms. Knight’s lines might be something a bit more plot-worthy than “oh! oh! oh!” or “more! more!” or the like. Sacrificing stand out characters plot for those glorified extras leaves me shaking my head.

    Another thought, since they seem to love Esme Blanco. What are the odds that Ros may become an amalgamation of Pia and Alayaya as the story goes on?

  117. Joshua Taylor
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    raegenhere,

    Yeah now that the show aired almost five months ago this is not the same site it was before. I miss that site.

  118. Dev F
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    persephone88: Also, if no Reek, what will be the culminating event of the season?

    If the season starts with Bran presiding over the Great Hall of Winterfell, awkward but beloved, there’s a certain symmetry in ending with Theon in the same position, awkward but despised.

  119. David Thomas
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Mario Mjoed,

    The “only real love story of the series” is in the Bran storyline? Who could you possibly be talking about? Unless the relationship you’re referring to is either gay or incestuous, the only possibility is Bran/Meera. And that’s just gross. She’s like 15 and he’s like 8. Or something like that. Please tell me you’re referring to Hodor/Osha (weird but less weird than Bran/Meera).

    I would enjoy seeing the Reed storyline but it’s totally unnecessary. With a little imagination, there are many ways to develop Bran…my guess is they are going to make Osha the greenseer who has the “ocean wave” prophesy and teaches Bran how to start down his dark path of mind-controlling Hodor, bitterness about his legs, and other assorted evil that will truly be revealed in the sixth and/or seventh books IMHO.

    So with Osha filling BOTH the Jojen and Meera roles in the plot, that just leaves one truly important thing missing: the story of the God’s Eye and the Tourney at Harrenhall. And again, there are a million ways we can get that information (it could even conceivably come from Catelyn for goodness’s sake with some minor adjustments (remember, Meera heard is second-hand herself, so why couldn’t Catelyn or a different character)…there is no reason that Meera has to tell that story or even that Bran needs to know that information…what’s most important about that story is that the READER know it, not the characters.

    I love the idea of Osha taking Bran, Hodor, and Rickon to the Wall, then leaving Bran and Hodor to continue themselves after meeting up with Sam/Coldhands. What really matters in all that time is that we see Bran ignore all the advice he’s given, get more and more bitter and entitled and whiny, warg into Hodor with absolutely no moral misgivings about this inherently evil act, and begin his journey past the wall where he will begin training to become an evil overlord sorcerer with the remaining Children of the Forest, who are creepier than anything in (and seemed ripped right out of) the movie Pan’s Labyrinth.

  120. Winterfell Burning
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    S1 didn’t cut any major plotlines and most important characters appeared, except for a few (the Tullys, Beric Dondarrion) that would be OK if they appeared in S2, but no latter.

    But cutting so many characters and important plotlines makes me worried.

    ASOIAF also has a characteristic of introducing characters, often briefly, and make them disappear only to return with an important role much later. While it is something that is difficult for TV, because the actors might get jobs that make them unavailable, if you want to cut all of this, you might as well not adapt ASOIAF at all.

  121. Winterfell Burning
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    And as for the poster that suggested that Roose isn’t really needed at the Red Wedding , I think you’re due to a re-read…

  122. the goat
    Posted November 18, 2011 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    Since a few people have asked, here was my theory on how they might split up the Winterfell storyline into two seasons from a few posts back:

    This is exactly how I think they will do it. The killing of the miller’s kids/”Bran and Rickon” is actually more important to the advancement of the story than the burning of Winterfell. I wouldn’t be surprised if the last scene of the season is Bran, Rickon, Osha, Hodor and the wolves hiding in the crypts. Of course, D&D could be extra cruel to non-book readers and leave them to believe that Bran and Rickon are dead for an entire year until S3 airs.

    To me, it just comes down to issues of time and money. I’m sure they’d like to have Ramsey and the burning of Winterfell in S2, but Rodrik’s short siege, the Ramsay/Rodrik battle (even if they don’t show much of it), and the burning of Winterfell are expensive, time-consuming scenes (both in terms of screen time and production time), and it seems like they’re going all out on the Blackwater. Also, as others have mentioned, Bran doesn’t have a whole to do in SoS aside from the story of the tourney at Harrenhal and meeting up with Coldhands and Sam (which probably wouldn’t happen until s4), so it gives him more screen time in S3.

    The only potential problem with your theory is that if Ramsay doesn’t show up until after Theon “kills” Bran and Rickon, how would he know that Bran and Rickon aren’t really dead? Of course, they could just have Theon admit it to him while Ramsay is torturing him.

    Another important thing to note, although it seems that Ramsay won’t appear this season, he can certainly be talked about (kidnapping/marrying Lady Hornwood, Rodrik going after him). If he isn’t mentioned at all this year then he has likely been cut from the story altogether. If he is mentioned then he will almost certainly appear at some point.

    As for the Reeds, they could also easily be introduced in S3. For instance, after the burning of Winterfell, Osha, Bran, Hodor and Rickon emerge and find the dying Luwin. Luwin tells Osha to split the boys up, but with only her and Hodor that isn’t feasible. So they all head south, sneaking toward White Harbor or wherever. Soon after, the Reeds find them and tell them they must take Bran north to the Wall. How did they find Bran? Greensight. Why does Bran trust them? Jojen knows about the three-eyed crow.

  123. TheImp'sNose
    Posted November 19, 2011 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    There is a reason that GRRM initially felt ASOIAF was unadaptable to film!

    The T.V. format gives them some room to stretch as compared to a feature film length, of course, but 10 episodes is super tight…

    If they can shape it into a form resembling the best aspects of season 1, I will be thrilled, but the book lover in me HATES the potential removal of the Tullys, Reeds, Reek, etc.,- maybe they will pull off something even better than I am thinking, and then I can collapse in an gelatinous heap in fron of my television next year.

  124. Superdeluxe
    Posted November 19, 2011 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    I guess this pretty much confirms that GRRM Plans to either kill the Reeds in his books or they no longer a factor (Even though he hinted at a bigger role for the Reeds in ADWD).

  125. Superdeluxe
    Posted November 19, 2011 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    David Thomas: Mario Mjoed, The “only real love story of the series” is in the Bran storyline? Who could you possibly be talking about? Unless the relationship you’re referring to is either gay or incestuous, the only possibility is Bran/Meera. And that’s just gross. She’s like 15 and he’s like 8. Or something like that. Please tell me you’re referring to Hodor/Osha (weird but less weird than Bran/Meera). .

    Remember GRRM had said that he wanted the kids to all be about 3 years older. If you keep Meera at 16, and make Bran 12. Sure that might be ‘gross’ in season 2..but by the end of the series (Book) Bran would be what 20? and Meera would be 25. Now not so ‘gross’.

  126. Shannon Keenan
    Posted November 19, 2011 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    You know I so very much love reading a book then then having a series or movie to look forward to. But this constant irritation of disappearing characters and diverted plots is getting really old. As much as I love this book series and was so amped that we now have a visual representation of this fantastic story, I honestly think I do not have the energy and patience this time. I cant stand some writers, I mean if they were truly fans and truly understanding they would know that removing so much really does change it for us, why bother making the show period when all the the little things that make up this book are shoved to the wayside or put way out of chronological order, that only serves to annoy the people who fell in love with the series in the first place. I don’t know if I will be able to look away from the train wreck but I am certainly gonna try….especially since Drogos gone lol at least for one season I could enjoy the eye candy and forget about the disappointments.

  127. Blackfire
    Posted November 20, 2011 at 3:22 am | Permalink

    ” But the Blackfish is the type of peripheral role that could theoretically be cut to save time and to keep the focus on the primary characters. We will have to continue to wait to find out the Blackfish’s ultimate fate.”

    What is this garbage? Why are you justifying a potentially terrible and stupid decision with reasons that make no sense. The show is already creating FICTIONAL CHARACTERS THAT NEVER EXISTED IN THE BOOK for season two but don’t have enough time/money to cast a fan favorite that’s still actually alive in the novels? Please, spare me the bs excuses; people want the BLACKFISH not some made up Lannister to stroke the show writers’, that aren’t GRRM, egos. Grow a backbone and call the show out for its dumb decisions. No need to sugar coat it.

  128. Hirondelle
    Posted November 20, 2011 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    Yikes, with all this gutting and cutting ACoK now feels barely recognizable. No Winterfell to speak of? No Riverrun whatsoever? D&D are doing some serious re-imagining. Looks like GoT is no longer “based on” but “inspired by” ASOIAF. But hey, I’m game. Let’s wait and see if it has a pulse.

  129. JP
    Posted November 20, 2011 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    I seriously can’t see how season two can develop in winterfell without the Reeds.
    Howland is one of those characters that have been hinted 1 or 2 times in the first book and we’ve been looking forward to meeting him due to the fact that he might be the ONE living mofo that knows the truth about what happened in the Tower of Joy and maybe Jon’s parents
    AND, meera’s kick-ass charisma and jojen’s skills and real intent of being 200% loyal to the starks.. really, I don’t think only putting theon greyjoy back in winterfell can wrap up all the exciting things that happened in ACOK…

  130. Emrys Greyjoy
    Posted November 20, 2011 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    Personally I’m more inclined to believe the Reeds will be introduced next season now, rather than have Osha completely take over their role. I can understand why people suggest that, and it is a definite possibility, but it always seems to me that such a change doesn’t take into account the unique impact the Reeds have on Bran.

    It’s also possible, I think, that ‘the Reeds’ will become ‘a Reed’ – with them combining Meera and Jojen’s roles. I like them both, but as it stands I feel only one is truly necessary to the plot and to the evolution of Bran’s character.

    Osha just doesn’t have the same world view, and as such couldn’t (or rather, shouldn’t) affect Bran the same way. Plus she will be needed on Skaagos down the line, and it would make a lot of sense for them to both make Bran’s journey north more interesting (meeting the Reeds for the first time, expanding on Green dreams, leaving Osha and Rickon) and expanding upon Rickon and Osha’s own journey much as they are set to give us a look at Robb’s untold story.

  131. Jenny
    Posted November 21, 2011 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    I just want to say: I THINK IT LOOKS GREAT!
    I’m gonna love it.

    Come on people, just enjoy it!
    EASE INTO IT!

  132. Mia
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    Meera and Jojen are a huge and significant part of the Bran storyline and I’m really disappointed they’re not in season 2. Especially Jojen is a key character with his greensight and helping Bran to deal with his skinchanging power. I just don’t see Osha doing those things for Bran. So I hope they’re just gonna introduce the Reeds (or one Reed) in season 3.

  133. Michael Johnson
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Well…first, I am writing this as a fan of the series – I have been following it since I was a grad student and Game of Thrones first came out. I have read all five novels, enjoyed them all in different ways, and am convinced it is one of the best fantasy series of recent years, though perhaps not THE best.

    But.

    These forum comments confuse me, and I think it comes from a basic misunderstanding of the purposes of “art” and an artist’s “obligations” to the audience. That is to say, there aren’t any.

    Yes, that’s what I said. George R. R. Martin has no “responsibilities” when it comes to satisfying his fan base, as grievous as some of that fan base might find such an idea. And unfortunately, when Martin agreed to other writers gaining the “rights” to that subject matter, he has also agreed to allow them creative license in adapting that material however they wish. And they, too, are artists. And that means…yep. They also have no “obligations” when it comes to the audience and changing the subject matter.

    Look. Critics have all agreed that the show is one of the best on television. All you have to do is watch the show and the writing quality is clear. Is it perfect? No. And neither are the books. But it is miles better than most of the competing narratives vying for your attention on the television screen. How this could possibly lead someone to expect a “trainwreck” in the second season is beyond me. It is, in fact, a ridiculous statement, purely born out of disappointment that the source material is not being slavishly reflected in the storytelling on the screen, since it cannot possibly be logically based on any such evidence of shoddy craftsmanship in the first season. It is quite possible that the show will not be as good – anything is possible – but the idea that it won’t be as good based on the show making changes to the source material is pure subjective opinion: it won’t be as good for you because it will deviate too much from the book. If that is true, fine, don’t watch it. But don’t claim the show’s quality suffers just because you don’t LIKE the changes. Your PERCEPTION of its quality may suffer – but once again, that is based on your personal opinion, not on objectively measurable aspects of the show itself.

    Bottom line, the only responsibilities the writers have is to tell the best story that they can tell in the television medium, and they have the RIGHT to make whatever changes they deem necessary to tell that story the way they want: HBO gives them the right, Martin himself gave them that right, and their creative license as artists gives them that right. We, on the other hand, have NO rights to the subject matter, and while we have the right to complain about changes we don’t like, we have no right to being intellectually dishonest and equating personal disappointment with artistic failure.

    The writers are trying to tell a good story to an audience consisting of both those who have read the novels and those who haven’t. They have made a creative choice to alter the material where they deem necessary in the name of telling the story effectively. Narratives that work on the page do not transfer automatically to the screen with the same effectiveness – luckily, the writers seem to know this, whereas apparently vast sections of the audience, including fans of the books, do not. To turn your back on a quality narrative out of a sense of personal outrage – that’ll teach ‘em! – seems pretty silly. My guess is, and time will tell, that Game of Thrones will, like the Lord of the Rings films, endure the ire and angst of its rabid fan base and end up being extremely successful despite the condemnation of changes to the characters and narrative brought by fans of the original material who do not understand the true “obligations” of artists.

    That’ll teach ‘em.

  134. Epic shtickybuns
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Michael Johnson,

    You talkin’ like some fancy lawyer talk. Ah guess dat’s cause you went to grad school. But, I heard it before. As a fan I have no “responsibility” to smear my smelly opinions all over the internet. But I will anyway, gratis.

    My guess is no one will remember GoT in 20 years, if it even gets finished. Like about 99.99% of the other fantasy books it will vanish in a sea of glossy covers, and it will read like an outmoded style by the next generations. GRRM will live comfortably for the rest of his life at least.

    But in the meantime, nice sales. I even saw DwD in a Best Buy commercial on the cover of a eBook reader. I think the retailers notice because DwD was one of the biggest selling ebooks of all time or something. I’m still on page 72, midgets drinking and pissing sour wine.

  135. Elena Amici
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Michael Johnson: 1)These forum comments confuse me, and I think it comes from a basic misunderstanding of the purposes of “art” and an artist’s “obligations” to the audience.
    2)Yes, that’s what I said. George R. R. Martin has no “responsibilities” when it comes to satisfying his fan base, as grievous as some of that fan base might find such an idea.
    3)They [D&D] also have no “obligations” when it comes to the audience and changing the subject matter.
    Bottom line, the only responsibilities the writers have is to tell the best story that they can tell in the television medium, and they have the RIGHT to make whatever changes they deem necessary to tell that story the way they want: HBO gives them the right, Martin himself gave them that right, and their creative license as artists gives them that right. We, on the other hand, have NO rights to the subject matter, and while we have the right to complain about changes we don’t like, we have no right to being intellectually dishonest and equating personal disappointment with artistic failure.

    Okay, let me tell you something: you basically wrote a LOT just to say something we all already know. I’m not trying to be rude, but it kinda sounds like you’re trying to teach us a little lesson, talking about rights and copyright and exectudive producers. there’s no need to.
    Started answering to your post point by point (1,2 & 3) but I realized that I was repeating the same thing over and over again: we are fan. We love this story and we care about what the producers are doing. Else, what’s the point of this site? We know we have no right or whatever, but we like to think we do. We like to think our opinions matter to somebody else, even if that “somebody else” means the other posters. GRRM and HBO may not have “responsabilities” or whatever, but we have the damn right to bitch about what they do if we feel like doing it.

  136. Knurk
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Michael Johnson,

    Ugh another one of those ‘GRRM/HBO is not your bitch’ argument. Good for you GRRM/HBO have no obligations towards us, but when they fuck up this is the place where we can bitch about it.

    Although there are of course commenters who complain about EVERYTHING, people doing the ‘holier than thou’-act telling them they should appreciate the story as it is told and should stop bitching are even more annoying.

  137. andrea
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Michael Johnson,
    I wonder what would happen if these changes turn the show into something that YOU don´t like at all. You wouldn´t complain? even when you have to pay premium tv? or spend your money on a book that bores you? Why not complain? Is your time, is your money, your hopes, whatever you invests in it.
    The only problem or difference I see here has to do with standards. You seem very sure that we are far more demanding than you (and that’s always debatable)…and you complain about it!!! And why not, you have the right to complain about us complaining about … and so on.
    What about people who can not criticize what they like? That doesn´t mean you don´t enjoy it. Is good entertainment right? Are there some rules that I don´t know?
    Anyway, on this blog, the vast majority loves the show.
    And I will miss Strong Belwas, that´s my only complain so far.

  138. Nicko
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    userj: I do wonder if they cut him what Arstan’s cover story would be. I suppose he could just be a mysterious sellsword sent by Illyrio or something.

    Why does he need a cover story? In the book, that’s a big reveal – but that won’t be the case with the TV series because you can actually see the character. Hence, no need to conceal his identity. Hence, no need for Belwas, who is essentially a Asrstan delivery system.

  139. Knurk
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Nicko: Why does he need a cover story? In the book, that’s a big reveal – but that won’t be the case with the TV series because you can actually see the character. Hence, no need to conceal his identity. Hence, no need for Belwas, who is essentially a Asrstan delivery system.

    of course he needs a cover story. It’ll be completely out of character and unrealistic if Selmy goes to Dany and says: hello, I betrayed your father but now I’m here because prince Jerkface gave me early retirement! Therefore Belwas is still a perfect deliverysystem, and probably the most awesome deliverysystem that exists.

  140. jens
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    The exclusion of the blackfish shows laziness on part of the writers. They could easily have merely mentioned the character and built him up. They haven’t even shown a single tully character. Not even a foot soldier. Lazy.
    They sure have time to create new characters, but haven’t shown any interest in developing the tullys. Hell, they havent even mentioned the martells.

  141. andrea
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Knurk: and probably the most awesome deliverysystem that exists.

    Yes, he is
    Yes, of course
    Yes, you´re right

  142. Epic knows nothing
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    andrea: Knurk: and probably the most awesome deliverysystem that exists.

    Yes, he is
    Yes, of course
    Yes, you´re right

    Anybody else have a suspicion the above is a coded message to al-Qaeda? Or is it just hilarious?

  143. andrea
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Epic knows nothing,

    I would have said Belwas is immensely fat, bald and funny but Knurk was much more creative. Without SB Dany´s arc would be really boring. Like Jon Snow whithout Tormund.
    I am a terrorist only in my kitchen!
    You just want to get in trouble, Troublemaker!

  144. Epic knows nothing
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    andrea: Dany´s arc would be really boring

    would be/could be/is?

    andrea: Troublemaker!

    Yes, of course/Yes, you´re right

    andrea: Tormund.

    Unfortunately I have no idea who this is. But worse I am not trying to remember. All I care about is casting news these days. And not reading Dance with Dragons (to make it last a long time).

    I don’t know who Belwas is either except he’s fat, funny, and the best delivery system ever.

  145. andrea
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Epic knows nothing: I don’t know who Belwas is either except he’s fat, funny, and the best delivery system ever.

    Epic knows enough then.

    You don´t care but I´ll tell you anyway: Tormund and Strong Belwas are two very simple and funny characters. My favorite type of characters. Don´t mess…they´re huge .

    Do you want to know what happens in ADwD? I could/would tell you… but if you want to suffer …

  146. Epic knows nothing
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    andrea: Do you want to know what happens in ADwD?

    As it happens, I am doing an experiment where I am the guinea pig test. My goal is to read the book entirely by spoilers. My theory is that I will be just as informed as the past readers of the book, if not better, just from having compiled and read carefully spoilers in user comments. Even in the early stages I have a more advanced opinion than most as a result of my analysis from an enumerated compilation of casually spoilered facts distilled from the original Dance with Dragons: nothing happens, and a wedding. But I’m just getting started so I expect more astonishing results later. So yes, Andrea, I would like to know what happens. As for your favorite characters, I say cart in the King Falstaff. And for your kitchen terrorism, I support it. I am reading something called Bones Blood and Butter which should be illegal in the modern world of 24/7 convenience. Yes it is very exciting.

  147. andrea
    Posted November 22, 2011 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Epic knows nothing: Bones Blood and Butter

    I must get that book! Prune? Hmmmm. (I did a quick search)

    Epic knows nothing: Falstaff

    exactly! exactly! You know something…

    ADwD: I assumed it was an experiment but really… troublemaker!

    hey! I almost forgot: there is a note for you at my blog! if you decide that you want to read it, leave a comment for me. I do NOT want to expose that awful translation to others.

  148. WinterQueene
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    I think I’m going to hold any flames I may feel the need to throw until AFTER I’ve seen how the omissions/introductory delays play out. I have great faith in everyone involved in the making of GoT, most of them are passionate fans like us, so I trust them to do the best they can with the massive text and character list.

    I will be quite sad if the Blackfish is cut, he is a BAMF and BAMFs deserve recognition (and screentime). Not so much if Hoster is cut, his part is so minimal that it would be a waste of part of the budget to cast him, IMO. I am looking forward to seeing Edmure (I think of all the Tullys, he is the one they will definitely keep) when he eventually shows up, and the way they treat his part in the story.

    As for the Reeds, I’m not worried, and I don’t even mind if they are dovetailed into one character. I’m quite sure we’ll see them in time, in some form or another, and if we don’t then I’m excited to see how D & D map out and replace their roles in the plot. I’m not a huge fan of them in any case, yes they are an important device in Bran’s storyline, but apart from developing the idea of prophetic/green dreams and convincing Bran to go north of the wall, they don’t seem to have any personality. They’re just… there. IMO (ducks frogspears and flames thrown by Reed fans)

    “Reek” is probably too important to drop entirely/merge with Roose. But using a featured extra and then recasting/ delaying his arrival doesn’t worry me… yes, it would be nice to have his psychotic creepiness introduced at this stage, with the flaying of the miller’s son’s faces, but his part in the story is largely much later on. It would make me laugh like mad if he’s been secretly cast and there’s all this fury over his apparent non-casting.

    Honestly, the only change so far that has annoyed me AT ALL was giving the Hound’s background story to Littlefinger at the joust. I daresay the only changes in future that will annoy me in the slightest will be any that hinder the San/San. The Hound is my favourite, Rory is an amazing actor, and I want to see my Hound get SOME enjoyment from his otherwise bitter existence.

  149. Elena Amici
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    andrea: Like Jon Snow whithout Tormund.

    I love Tormund, but I think Jon’s arc could do without him (although this would break my hear.. did i say that I love him?). You just made me remember that theory about merging Tormund and Mance :D I’m giggling *-* (Mance playing ‘Me Huge Member’.. that would just kill me :D)

    Epic knows nothing: And not reading Dance with Dragons (to make it last a long time).

    read it already and be done with it. Trust me
    Better, read Dany’s and Tyrion’s part as fast as you can and save Theon, and especially Jon for later :D (this is what I did. I didn’t want Jon’s arc to end)

    WARNING:
    Epic knows nothing: Dance with Dragons: nothing happens, and a wedding

    two wedding, actually. Two freakin weddings in which NIOBODY DIES (except our patience in the one we don’t ‘see on screen’. )

    Wanna know MY Dance spoiler history? I got a lot of fake spoilers
    3 days before the book came out I read a review implying that something cool was going to happen to Jon and something bad was going to happen to a fan(and GRRM’s) favorite character, so I was sure Tyrion was dead. 2 hours later I read, from a guy who already had the book, that Dany died. I was kinda haapy, because i don’t care about any of them, and I though that a main character’s death meant more possibilty of surviving for the characters i DO care about. (I misread the second spoiler, about DANY dying. Or maybe it was just wishful thinking… Whatever. I was so totally like “wow, my fav characters are safe for a while”. talking about irony!)

    WinterQueene: But using a featured extra and then recasting/ delaying his arrival

    I totally jumped on the Iwan Rheon van.

  150. andrea
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici: Jon’s arc could do without him

    Yes, sad, but true… although we don´t know yet how important Tormund will be.
    I didn´t want to say that Jon´s arc is boring like Dany´s. Just came out wrong. In fact I´m started to think that Jon and the wildlings are my favorites. What I meant is that Tormund is funny like S. Belwas. Oh my… forgot about Dolorous Ed!!! How could I? Kill me.

    Elena Amici: (Mance playing ‘Me Huge Member’.. that would just kill me :D)

    jijiiji I forgot about that.

  151. Elena Amici
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    andrea: In fact I´m started to think that Jon and the wildlings are my favorites.
    What I meant is that Tormund is funny like S. Belwas. Oh my… forgot about Dolorous Ed!!! How could I? Kill me.

    Of course they are u,u
    And what about Pyp? for the night is dark, and full of turnips!

  152. andrea
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Elena Amici: Pyp

    has his moments, yes.
    Augh my memory sucks

  153. Epic
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    I was not joking about reading your translation. I hope I get to! It would be a privilege! I didn’t see it posted directly on your blog. Perhaps I can give you one of my email aliases if you prefer to keep it private. I finally re-found your blog link. By the way, I hope you continue your blog for a long time. I find it very pleasant to read to say the least. I am terrible at reading spanish (or castellano) but there is google translate to guide me (and it leaves the original too to see the richer version of the text). However for the more formal text, google translate holds no water and I have no doubt that your translation of Rivera(?) will be more meaningful and correctly nuanced.

  154. andrea
    Posted November 23, 2011 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Epic: will be more meaningful and correctly nuanced.

    oooooooh, don´t get your hopes up, please. I used everything I found to help me. My memory (well, my memory), huge dictionary, google… but Rivera is harsh. I think he would be furious. I can do better, I know, but for now read it as it is, if you like Rivera then I promise I´ll try my best.
    In a moment I´ll post those paragraphs for you. If my friends tease me, I´ll endure it because most of them speak English like me. If you tease me… then I don´t know. If you preferred to give me an e-mail, it´s fine too. You can write it on the post where I left the note for you or at my e-mail (you can see it on my blog I think). As you want.
    Don´t you prefer to read Rivera in spanish? Is fantastic.

    Epic: By the way, I hope you continue your blog for a long time.

    You´re so nice. Thank you.
    It´s done, but give me a minute to post the real Rivera. You just look for the post below letter J.

  155. Pod4King
    Posted November 27, 2011 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    So Strong Belwas was back on the ship when Arstan meets Dany. I don’t see how him not being cast means he’s out.

  156. Roger Dering
    Posted December 24, 2011 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    To those of you who complain about Bran not having anything to do this season. You do realise he has 4 chapter of absolutely nothing but walking in Storm and no chapters in Feast and only 3 chapters in Dance, two of those is just more walking. They HAVE to pad the events out as much as they can.

    If they go to Howland Reed first after the sacking of Winterfell happens in season 3, that’ll be a good opportunity to do that. Reek should be at Winterfell by the time Theon gets there or we’ll really miss something in this adaption.

    I’m way more worried about the Tully’s. Honestly, if Blackfish isn’t in season 2 then just give his latter seasons storyline to Greatjon and leave him out. What is the point of that character if he Cat and Robb only spend a few scenes together, none, that’s what.

  157. Pod4King
    Posted January 18, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Is this Weasel they mentioned Ramsay, giving a new definition to the whole Weasel stew thingy?

    I heard that Ramsay kills Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, gets in trouble w/ Robb, and the commander of the soldiers imprisoned in Harrenhal that Arya frees w/ Jaqen’s help. I heard Ramsay than gets sent north to winterfell to help ser Rodrik (presumably by way of Maidenpool). When he gets there, everything proceeds like the book.

  158. The Reeds
    Posted January 21, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    With a little creative scripting the Reeds might easily be introduced after the sacking.. Just have Osha hide and run with Brandon and introduce the Reeds after they run.

  159. Turre
    Posted January 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Brad Villane,

    Reeds will propably be casted. Especially Jojen is toooooo damn important and interesting to be cut. Casting must be just right. You still have to get Bran to the wall, so replacing The Reeds with Osha just cuts one actor off the buget. Osha is gone anyway and The Reeds are way more interesting. Just think about all the adolescent crushes you might write between Bran an Meera :-)

  160. Turre
    Posted January 21, 2012 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Ok. Belwas has just on or two smalla scens so he can be an extra. Blackfish? What does he do in the end anyway? Lollys get gang raped, so that an opprotunity not to miss.

    The Reeds though. Jojen is a prophet and Brandon clearlly has a chrush on Meera and Meera with her net creates a lot of good moments. Replacing them with Osha is just nuts. Osha is a minor character who getsdumped for a long time anyway. So replacing The Reeds with Osha is just bad writing and makes no sence. You still have to get Bran to the wall….

  161. Jaison Corleone
    Posted February 6, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    couldn’t bran, richon, osha and hodor get lost while leaving winterfel for the wall to find john and have them run into the guy riding the elk to take them to the children of the forrest? i’d like to have the reeds in there too but they could be cut out in this way. it would change things without upsetting the major events.

    also maester lewan (sp) could be the on to see that bran in a skin walker and tell him about the children of the forest.

  162. Doug
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    They have to do Vargo Hoat, the Blackfish, the Reeds, “Reek”, Edmure, Hoster and Queen Selyse no matter what. They COULD probably get away with waiting a while on the Blackfish, Queen Selyse and maybe even Hoster Tully for a while. The others need to come in quite early in season 3 for sure if not before. Reek actually in my opinion has to come in in season 2. Not even an option. We will see but I don’t see how they couldn’t at least throw him in a little.

  163. Beau
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    I wish Strong Belwas does not get cut off of the series :[

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