Broaching the subject of feminism, sexism, and gender roles can be rough. A common complaint is that the subject is just so tiring and annoying. But hey, so is misogyny. So I’d like to discuss the topic a bit with the people here at WiC. There’s been a lot of criticism about the show’s treatment of women- the nudity, sexual abuse, and other issues. The issue of sexism also arises frequently within the fandom itself.
The Horatio Caine of Westeros
George R.R. Martin based his world on medieval society. While that might seem like an excuse to let a story setting be sexist, I think Martin’s world reflects our current one. For example, medieval women were paid less than men for doing the same work, while also taking care of their families. Sound familiar? Creating a world with sexist behavior and hierarchy is realistic. Though the world of Ice and Fire favors men, the women playing in the world are clever and inspiring. It’s hard to think of Game of Thrones as being anti-woman when you have moments like Dany striking back hard at Viserys after years of abuse, or Catelyn investigating the attempted murder of her son. The men reign at the beginning of Game of Thrones, but by the end of the first season, Daenerys, Catelyn and Cersei are widows who plot their own futures.
This construct gives characters like Daenerys, Cersei, Arya and Sansa something to struggle against. They assert their wishes, even when told they’re inappropriate or damnable or forbidden. They make mistakes, fall in love, take revenge, and change their world. This is a place I can relate to. A planet of gender equality sounds heavenly, but that’s not the world I live in. I recognize in myself the way that these women react to their circumstances. I also can recognize myself in Tyrion and Samwell, among others. A great story goes beyond gender definition. That’s one reason why I love A Song of Ice and Fire.
There have been some aspects of Game of Thrones that made people unhappy- notably the depictions of rape and nudity. I have very liberal attitudes when it comes to nudity- I don’t consider a nude woman to be weak, cheapened or automatically a victim. I don’t have a problem with any nudity, as long as it’s equally doled out. There’s been far more female nudity than male, so the show could improve in that regard. Sexuality is a part of the human experience, and it’s not always going to be pretty and healthy. This isn’t a happy story. And to people that complain about Ros and her “sexposition” role, doesn’t it make sense to create a role for one woman with personality, rather than to present several faceless prostitutes? Sex workers exist in our world, too. And exposition is needed in a tale as dense as A Song of Ice and Fire. It could’ve been done smoother, I acknowledge.
Seriously, more male nudity. Thanks.
The issue of rape in the show and the books is far more complicated. I realize it’s an extremely sensitive and triggering topic, but I think it would be wrong to avoid mentioning sexual abuse in the context of this post. Should the show refrain from depicting non-consensual sex? I can accept rape being part of a story as long as it isn’t sensationalized or blamed on the victim. I don’t want to see it treated casually or depicted any more than the story dictates. (The TV show’s alteration of Dany and Drogo’s wedding night is a very debatable issue, but I think it dealt with a weak point in the novel – the non-consensual marriage and unwanted sex after the wedding night- as well as it could, but more on that another time.) I’ve seen some complain about sexual abuse being a part of the series at all. I’m interested in knowing how people here feel about that.
As Ginia Bellafante demonstrated in her New York Times article, a lot of sexism we encounter with Game of Thrones comes from critics and the fandom. Fantasy fans are often subject to stereotyping; female fantasy fans get a double whammy, in that even liking the genre is suspect. Bellafante said she’s never met a woman who “refused to read the latest from Lorrie Moore unless everyone agreed to The Hobbit first.” So not only are we strange nerds, we’re also invisible. That isn’t true at all. I look at the Game of Thrones fandom- on message boards, Tumblr, ONTD, and beyond- and I see so many women on a regular basis that it never occurs to me to think it’s strange. It’s the norm, and people are beginning to learn that.
Just trying to save her father's life, no big deal.
Sexism within the fandom is troubling. I love a good debate about Game of Thrones players. I don’t care for its women being considered stupid or useless if they do something that the male characters disapprove of, or if they adhere to a traditionally feminine role. Arya is amazing and bucks the Westerosi female role, but that doesn’t mean Sansa sucks for wanting to wear dresses and get married. The habitual pitting of two females against each other is an annoying bit of sexism. I’d be a happy woman if people stopped reducing Cersei’s complex personality to “dumb whore.” These women are not delicate flowers without fault; they are equal players in the game of thrones. The sexism I see is usually in people’s interpretations, and rarely in Martin’s writing or in the Game of Thrones scripting.
These are my thoughts of the matter. What are yours? I know not all of you would agree, and I respect that. There are few things as infuriating to any woman- any person- as being told what they should be doing or feeling. With several powerful new female characters in GoT’s second season, I think the subject is only going to become more intriguing.
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399 Comments
It’s stupid to call “A Song of Ice and Fire” misogynistic because the role of women is an important part of the plot! Dany, Cersei, Arya, Arianne and Asha, they all analyze how they are treated different for being women, and they stand against it! Dany starting her own Khalasar, Cersei plotting to keep her crown, Arya wanting to be a knight, Arianne and her control over Dorne, Asha and her “Queensmoot”…
Anyone who calls GOT misogynistic has clearly not understood anything.
EmmanuelQuote Reply
Oh yay! I love meaty, intelligent discussions like this. XD
I definitely agree that much of the sexism in the fandom is from the fandom itself and not there in the source material (at least, insofar as the books are concerned). The Sansa/Arya comparison is one that you see a lot, and although part of that is probably inevitable (they pit themselves against each other to some extent in the first book/season), much of the negative attitude toward Sansa’s choices and interests seems to come from a rather sexist perspective.
I’ve been pretty vocal about my dislike of the sexposition in the show (not all of it, mind, just some very awkward scenes), but less because I found them sexist and more because I thought they were bad and clumsy. I don’t have a problem with creating a central-ish prostitute character (although the books do sort of have one in Shae), but most of the prostitutes in the show, including Ros, suffer a lot from happy-hooker syndrome, and that’s a large part of why I found them nearly unbearable and overly cheesy.
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
I’d like to add (sorry, the edit feature isn’t appearing for me) that although I’m looking forward to S2 with a lot of optimism, I think the expansion of Robb’s character and story may have some unwanted side-effects in that we may see less of/with Catelyn, which is a pretty huge shift in terms of tone, I think. I was never a huge fan of either character, particularly, but I did like that GRRM didn’t just switch to focusing on Robb as the lead in ACoK, and that much of that story was told from the unlikely perspective of the former main character’s widow.
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
Thank you for this!
I agree that almost all sexism misogyny connected with GoT/ASoIaF comes from certain parts the fandom and not from the source material/scripts.
FreyaQuote Reply
Great post and great debate topic, OitF!!
My take on the subject is that anyone that see ASoIaF as a mysogynistic, o male centered story should read it again. It’s mainly the women of the tale the ones who put the plot forward. Some examples, taking book 1 only
Catelyn convinces Ned to take HoK office.
Cersei’s assassination of Robert.
Pretty much everything around Daenerys, until book 5
And to say that a medieval society, even a fantasy medieval society, has no place for women… In the Game of Thrones, women have power, but not in the same way as men. And that’s something that on later books we found Cersei have not really got it, while the Queen of Thornes is a master player.
On the topic about sex, rape and nudity… I’m a man. Honestly, I could not (dare not) imagine what it would be to be a woman under a sexual assault. So I think my take on that would be pointless. Fwiw, each time I read the chapter on Theon and the Captain’s daughter I feel the urge to punch him in the face.
CaedesQuote Reply
Great post. I for instance did not have much problem with Dany and Drogo’s wedding night because in the books, even if he was gentle the first time, I do think he did rape her later on (let’s be honest, before she really settled herself with the Dothraki, she wanted to die, was taken by force etc).
I usually stay away from this kind of discussions because of this. Sorry to say, but too many people in this fandom do have those sexist views (while using lame excuses like “But it was a sexist time!”) and then try to justify it with “All those other female characters suck but hey, Arya is awesome because she uses a sword, kills people and acts like a man”. Killing people is not the only way to be badass. I love Arya but… just no.
There is a pretty great if not a bit abandoned livejournal community that focuses on discussions of the ASOIAF female characters, I can’t get the exact link right now but googling “Westeros Women” or something like that might take you there.
harrenhalQuote Reply
Word.
LF monologue on Episode 7 is each time more unwatchable.
CaedesQuote Reply
The major bulk of the complaints, I think, come from people who don’t understand the basic ‘time period’ in which Martin writes. (Yes, this is fiction, bear with me…)
In the medieval world, women were property of their husbands, brothers, uncles, grandfathers, etc. Their marriages were arranged to whomever would bring the biggest benefit to their male household. Their children were often married off in the same fashion. They had a lot of power within their own household but it often stopped at the gate.
Yes, there is a lot of rape and violence, but these are men’s tools to controlling women. Rape is a casualty of war, and there’s a LOT of fighting going on in Westeros. Sex is used both as punishment and reward, as it has been for eons.
I’d like to smack some of the female characters around in Dance with Dragons (DANY! WTF!?) but for the most part, they are as clever and as powerful as their male counterparts. Not with the blade (except Brienne) but with their minds and their bodies, which is sometimes the only weapon they can wield.
ConstanceQuote Reply
Like many other females, I stopped visiting GoT forums because the sexist buttfaces on there were driving me crazy. You know, things like, “Sansa deserves every gauntlet’d slap she gets because she’s stupid” and “Men only hate Brienne because she’s ugly” and stupider stuff.
LelaQuote Reply
Lela,
This. I sometimes check out livejournal and tumblr, but most times I don’t even bother anymore.
harrenhalQuote Reply
Sorry, but this is something I don’t get and I would like to be explained to me.
Why “it was a sexist time” is a lame excuse? An excuse for what?
The way I see right now, is like some people don’t like the story because there is rape and sexist violence in it… To me, that’s like not liking “The Wire” because some characters are drug addicts and drug dealers… Wtf? It’s a story!! Bad things happen! Why the big deal!?
Maybe, most surely, I’m wrong about it, but, I’d love to be enlightened on this one.
CaedesQuote Reply
Fury, excellent article, and very well-written! I’m so happy to see this issue being discussed in a rational fashion!
I do think the TV show comes off better than the books in this area. While at first I didn’t like the wedding night change for Dany, as time has gone on, I see it as a much more realistic depiction of an arranged marriage wedding night with a brutal warlord. I want to write more of this but am running late right now, but I will be back!
purplejillyQuote Reply
Ok, now if people on the forums get to say those moronic things, I’m beginning to see where y’all coming from. Point taken.
CaedesQuote Reply
Great article OITF! (I mean Sue)
I ll try to articulate my thoughts on the subject – as a woman who s been liked fantasy genre since she was 8 or 9 years of age.
Since then – now, I ll be 40 (jeez! lol) in two months, I have been through all sorts of feelings and thoughts and attitude on the subject.
I am pretty much aware of the fact that on the surface of the public, press, opinions etc. females are still presented as a minority in the fantasy fandom.
Is it really true? Or is it another prejudice surrounding female/male “worlds”.
Still, I am not sure.
Two moments come into mind: The two buses on the TitanCon bus tour crowded with female and male population equaly and on the other hand some women (mostly from my background – which is still very traditonal) referring to fantasy as a typical male stuff.
On the other hand all that stuff going on lately all over the internet as: Martin =sexist. Asoiaf = The Empire of mysoginia, Sansa = stupid bitch, Cersei = crazy whore..etc..is so ridicolous and idiotc ( excuse me for the word) that I do not have any wish to even comment…
The RabbitQuote Reply
Caedes,
I actually seen this one being used as a ‘justification’ for hating some of the female characters, probably a troll but I don’t even know (I guess it was something along the lines of “considering how everyone was sexist at the time period of the story is totally ok to feel the same for the female characters even if we are not living in a medieval world anymore”). Sorry if I articulated that in a weird way, english is not my first language. Thankfully I think the majority of fans are quite reasonable but the few offending cases always end up stooding out, at least for me.
harrenhalQuote Reply
harrenhal,
I think 80% of the GoT fans I follow on Tumblr are womens :D
LelaQuote Reply
Excellent post.
harrenhal,
” Killing people is not the only way to be badass.” Spot on.
Fury,
Interested in your comment; “For example, medieval women were paid less than men for doing the same work, while also taking care of their families.” What/which characters on GoT/ASoIaF did you have in mind? I can think of Brienne as one female character doing the same “work” as the men. I put work in quotes because I am not including being clever or devious in my definition of work, although others may.
Does anyone have other characters in mind for this example?
AssuntaQuote Reply
This is just a sampling, but I think it’s a good overview, and it gels with what I see on the net. These are stats from all of last year, from my youtube channel of Game of Thrones videos.
http://i42.tinypic.com/25knccy.jpg
Almost 40% of all views were from women, and on some individual videos, women’s percentages were much higher.
Spain win the prize for having the highest % of women viewers of the GOT vids.
I like stats, thought you might enjoy a peek. :)
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
The womens roles do change through the books, they become stronger as their stories progress. I mostly identify with Sansa & her hardships with Joffery, & applauded the scene where she says Robb might bring her his (Joff’s) head. I really hate the Sansa batterings on forums, yes, we all know what a fool she was for running to the Queen, but she was a ‘child’ at the time & at that age all you want is what YOU want. She quickly learns not to trust a Lion… but hopefully see we’ll see her trusting Dogs instead :P
I have no issues at all with the majority of the nude scenes being female, & my only complaint with Ros is that there is no real need for the character in the show (unless of course she takes on another persons role later in the show). But I do wish for more male nudity, because I’m a pervy fan girl :)
One thing I don’t really like is that some of the women characters use their sexuality to gain power or use it as a hold over men… Cersei & Asha mainly, but then they quickly learn that whatever they have between their legs means little in the long run. And although I loved Dany for the first few books, she soon turns into a simpering bore. You’ve got bloody dragons! Use them!
I think the ones to watch are Arya, Brienne & Sansa in the long run, so GRRM, you best finish that next book soon so we can get some girl power (sorry, I hate that term more than anything)
This is my opinion. Just saying x
houndloverQuote Reply
Assunta,
When I said “Sound familiar,” I was referring modern women and how we still make notably less than men do for the same jobs.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Hear, hear.
I suspect that the Dany/Drogo and to a lesser extent Sansa/Joffrey dynamics earlier in the season may have made people feel uncomfortable watching the show, because it showed women *accepting* a bad man. And Cersei as the only woman to rail against a stifling marriage is a villain.
EleanorQuote Reply
harrenhal,
Ehem… you’re saying that some people think it’s right to be on the same mindset that the character on the story?omg.. Can’t they tell the difference between real life and a tale? Hello?
CaedesQuote Reply
that’s a great article, and i agree with Emmanuel.
Anyway, I don’t think that people calling Cersei a whore or complianing Sansa is stupid means they are mysoginistic. That’s not the problem. Sansa DID spend the first book being utterly stupid, and Cersei DOES use sex as a mean to achieve something she wants. IMO, the problem is that people who make a habit to criticize pretty much every. single. female. character are fine with male charactes doing stupid stuff. If Cersei is a whore, then so is LF. If AGOT!Sansa is naive and stupid, AGOT!Jon is pretty much the same. The reason why Dance!Dany is annoying and acts dumb is not because she sleeps with Daario, as some people seem to think – it’s because she lets herself be distracted by Daario and makes stupid mistakes.. but, hey, I guess I can say the same about Tyrion and Shae, and so on.
Anyway, it’s nice to see Ginia’s name in a new post.. *__*
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
I think its hard to look at the source material and conclude that in its entirety it is misogynistic even if a great deal of its characters represent terrible stereotypes. I think it is important to look at the successful women in the show, and those we as readers identify with. Identification and sympathies are not author error but instead reflect a conscious choice on GRRM’s part.It is easy to see that the women who buck the stereotypes are the ones we love and are the ones who are successful in their own way. He has chosen to reward those who don’t adhere to their male dominated society and punish those who let themselves be pushed around.
There are certainly those exceptions to the above rule (Cercei), but on the whole I think it holds (Asha, Arya, Dany).
As for the TV show, well, HBO knows that sex sells. There are misogynist characters in the series and the show does play up its own shock value. Misogynist characters don’t make a misogynist show, they just make for unnecessarily uncomfortable moments for the viewer which may be misinterpreted by a director as “drama.”
Guybrush ThreepwoodQuote Reply
That’s an interesting graph. It’s interesting that the series seems more popular for guys in their 20s and 30s, but not as much for teenage or middle-aged guys. But with women it is the opposite; there is a dip in interest for women aged 25-45, but more interest amongst teenage girls and middle-aged women. Wonder why that is?
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
One of the central themes of the books and the show is the futility of moral clarity. There is both feminism and sexism here, and both strong doses. The two do not cancel each other out, as they might in a lesser narrative, and the tension between them is uncomfortable because it does not resolve. I think this unresolved discomfort is what people are responding to when they lash out at the show. Of course, it’s supposed to be uncomfortable. That’s the point. Some viewers get this, some don’t.
JRQQuote Reply
But what other f*** choice have they??
First, it’s absolutely in character to baheve like they do. Dany is a scared, lonely girl. Sansa’s head filled with dreams of knights and fairy stories. They do what they’re supposed to do! It’s not a question of “right/wrong” or “smart/dumb” actions. It’s about “in/out of character” actions.
Cersei is not a villain because she wants to break gender roles. It’s a villain because has put a bastard in the throne, has murder, plotted and is willing to do anything to anyone in order to keep power to herself and her born-of-incest son.
CaedesQuote Reply
The setting of Game of Thrones is undeniably sexist. This is not in itself an issue- sadly, it reflects reality as it was not so long ago (and in many places still is). I hope for a truly equal society but even in progressive countries we’re not there yet. While it would certainly be interesting to read/view stories set in an equal society (the modern Battlestar Galactica came close, but even that wasn’t quite there), Game of Thrones isn’t one. And that’s fine.
One thing that does occur to me in regards to the setting- spoilered as I’m not sure how much it was mentioned in the show- An at least fairly reliable contraceptive exists. I have no idea how long it’s been around in that world, but in ours, the pill makes a huge difference in giving women freedom and control over our own lives. One of the biggest factors in our progress towards a truly equal society is being able to choose whether or not to have children, and if so do it when you choose, and only have as many as you want to. I can’t help but think it should make an impact in Westeros too. It’s been suggested it does in wildling society.
A sexist setting does not however make a sexist story. One of the things that most impressed me about the books was how well a grown man writes the internal thoughts of young girls. The majority of the POV characters are very believable- I don’t always like them, but they seem real. Regardless of gender. That’s not an easy thing to do.
There are some characters very clearly fighting for a chance to be independent women, in some cases seeking power, some not. So I wouldn’t call the source material sexist, though the setting and a lot of the characters- including some favourites- definitely are.
The show is of course a different thing, but I hope that in time the strong women from the books will make a great impact on screen. I do however think there is a bit of an issue (of course it may be changed) with nudity and sex scenes.
I have absolutely no objection to sex and nudity on screen. Including rape scenes- it’s horrible, it does happen and a key part of the story is not shying away from showing terrible things. But I do think, if the show wants to avoid accusations of sexism we should expect to see roughly equal amounts of both genders, and this hasn’t been the case so far. But the use of prostitues in the series is more striking. It’s realistic that there would be plenty of prostitutes around and likely doing good business. But in a gritty show, it really doesn’t show the down side of that line of work. The prostitues we’ve seen are beautiful, healthy and don’t seem all that unhappy with their lives (I’m aware a lot of what we’ve seen is smile for the customer, but it’s still odd). Maybe this could be true of the King’s favourite, but we get the impression that’s the case for them all and it’s clearly at odds with the warts-and-all (pun not intended!) depiction of most aspects of society. Ros wasn’t too keen on sleeping with Pycelle, but if that’s a bad day she’s very lucky. Many prostitutes would be carrying every STD on the planet and probably dealing with some very harsh treatment from at least some customers. So if you’re going to show prostitution (fine), show it in a realistic manner. Since the show made a point of making Ros a recurring character (I found her move to King’s Landing stretched this too far, but that’s not really relevant) , the lack of this aspect is even more glaring.
I’m female and I love the books largely because it’s a good story. There have been things that have disgusted me- but I haven’t stopped reading, because I make a point of reminding myself that I don’t have to like the character whose thoughts I’m hearing. And seeing the bad stuff makes the struggle the female POVs go through seem much more daunting, and I respect them all the more for it.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
I agree that the blokes don’t get the same treatment, same as in real life! If you sleep with loads of women, you get a clap on the back, you do the same as a girl & people think you’re a slut (good job I don’t give a rats ass what people think of me!)
*Spoiler Alert*
LF is a power-hungry creep, Robert a drunken fool, Robb… oh, can’t say here as my spoiler button doesn’t work damnit! Tyrion, for however smart he comes across, just wants to be loved. And we all know how that ends up…. Where do whores go again?
There’s always gonna be people who have to find fault with anything that becomes as popular as this show/book series has & the real fans just have to let it flow. ALL the characters have flaws, that’s why we love/hate them so much. The good thing is, they change through the series so those we hate in AGOT we end up loving by ADWD (Jamie for me).
houndloverQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Lots of teen girls? Makes sense. Tumblr is crawlin’ with fangirls, drawing Jaime fanart and making pretty gifs, and there’s loads of Robb and Renly fans for some reason? Part of me wonders if the TV show is going to feature Robb more to cater to his millions of Livejournal and Tumblr fangirls…
LelaQuote Reply
Bold editorial, Fury, I for one appreciate the dialogue you’re trying to start up. Like a number other female fans I’ve stopped hanging out in most places around the fandom because I can no longer stand its attitudes toward women in the books, nor its knee-jerk defensiveness of possibly problematic aspects of either the books or the show.
The books’ intentions w.r.t. gender are clearly, IMO, egalitarian intentions, but I do think that in subtle ways it enables some of the sexism found in fandom. I wouldn’t say the books are misogynistic, but Martin could’ve done a few things better. Still he’s one of the better male authors in the genre I can think of when it comes to this stuff.
As for the show, I’m a really strong critic against the depiction of sex in S1. Like you I have nothing against nudity or graphic sex, but the gender asymmetry is really difficult to argue with. Male nudity is simply not as frequent, nor are the scenes with any gaze on male bodies so blatantly obtrusive. OTOH the narrative goes out of its way to include shots of female bodies in scenes where story is quite clearly a secondary concern to the nudity/sex (sorry, nobody will ever convince me that the scene with Littlefinger and Ros was executed in any way remotely near organic storytelling). Personally I’d prefer if the sex scenes were about characterization and story, the way almost all of them are in the books, but at the very least there should be some symmetry. It’s stuff like that that makes me wonder who this series is for.
The pilot episode of the first season was really strongly male-dominated.
I’m not holding my breath that a woman will ever get top billing on this show. It’s sad that I can’t have that kind of faith in television (though obviously this may be out of B&W’s/HBO’s hands).
I was also really disappointed that it felt like B&W can’t grasp some of the female characters outside lo-res stereotypes (particularly Sansa and Catelyn). I don’t think the story is ruined for them, but what we saw doesn’t really signal a sharp grasp either.
On the issue of Dany’s wedding night, I’m pretty stumped, as there are objections to both the book’s and the show’s handling of it. I mean, in the end Martin’s story has Dany falling in love with a generally terrible violent man. The show could’ve played it less for straight romance and more with an open acknowledgment of its issues though.
I got flack for saying this a couple years ago, but I still wish there were more female writers on this show. I wish one of the producers was a woman. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think all the directors in the first season were men too. I’m sure that’ll be a controversial opinion, but I stand by it. I would love to see them show as much interest in playing up Cersei vs Catelyn as they did Ned vs Jaime, especially since the women are a much more elaborate set of foils than the men ever were, but that would require them being interested in the female experience and, while I think there’s some interest, it really pales in comparison to a show like Mad Men or The Good Wife or such.
OJQuote Reply
I’m a woman aged between 25-45 (closer to 25, not 45!) & most of the women I know who love the show are in the same age group…. So I find it really strange that there’s a dip in that range. But then again, I act like a teenage Bieber-loving fangirl when I see/read anything to do with ASOIAF… & ‘squee’ louder than a jet plane when I see the Hound :D
houndloverQuote Reply
Shinyteapot,
I agree. In a feudal society, the lower classes would have terrible health, and absolutely no social or geographical mobility. Ros, being a part of one of the lowest of the lower classes, shows no signs of this. She is apparently in good health and can make enough money to travel wherever she likes (conveniently at about the same time most of the main characters leave the North and more expositionary scenes are needed in the South). Almost always, whores working in a whorehouse would get exploited by the owners of the establishment, and for instance not be able to keep gifts given to them by customers (such as the medallion Tyrion gives Ros). If they were not a part of an establishment, they would be exploited even worse.
MagnusQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
I’m being honest when I ask you this, what jobs? Who has one, instead of just being a rich lord. Actually, I think one of the weak points in the series is how they never explain why some families are richer than others. No one works, except the prostitutes and the City Watch. And that guy who wouldn’t sell Arya a lemon cake. The Night Watch doesn’t seem to be paid at all.
The most they have done is state that the Lannisters control gold mines, but they never talk about taxes or the economy. I know most people would feel the show would come to a screeching halt if they did, but I’m curious how the people in the Seven Kingdoms value money. Littlefinger is the Master of Coin, but not even he can keep the kingdom afloat just from his brothels.
SkipjackQuote Reply
There are strong women in ASOIF !!
BalerionQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
People insulting Cersei with the word “whore” is absolutely misogynistic. Cersei sleeps with far far fewer people than Robert, for example, yet you’ll find fewer people calling him a whore. As well, Martin makes it clear that women have few options if they want to exert power. Cersei’s arc does a great job of showing what it’s like to live in that situation: she grows up knowing that men ogle her for her beauty, and she feels like a piece of meat. She takes that and turns it into a weapon; it’s unlikely that she can change enough attitudes to be able to feel respected sexually, but she can at least exploit this sexism for her own gain. Maybe she is not good at knowing what to do with power once she has it, but her whole life has been spent under the thumb of not so very nice men. To hate her for being a whore (which she’s not anyway; she doesn’t make money off of sex, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that in a world that leaves women few other options anyway) I think is missing the point of what Martin is trying to say in his books. Cersei may not be a great person, but it has nothing to do with being a whore. Try being a cruel and murderous tyrant or such.
OJQuote Reply
hi
purplejillyQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
My query was inarticulately worded. I wanted to explore the connection between your statement and ASoIaF. No big deal; sounds like the thread is headed in a different interesting direction.
AssuntaQuote Reply
The article only briefly touched on this, but I think it’s fascinating to compare Cersei, Catelyn, and Dany in this way…it’s true, they ARE all widows who have to deal with (varying levels) of grief while simultaneously being freed to determine their own destinies…
Honestly, I think one of the most rewarding things about this series is how you can draw interesting parallels between almost any two characters, no matter how dissimilar they may seem. Tyrion and Jaime are presented as opposites in many ways, but their similarities are also striking, and they are believable as brothers because of it…too many stories make siblings out to either be polar opposites or carbon copies, and it’s not realistic at all. You could pick any two characters and get something interesting out of the comparison, though…even if they’ve never met, and the story has drawn no explicit parallel between them. Consider Syrio and Illyrio for a while, and I think you’ll see what I mean.
stileQuote Reply
Cersei isn’t evil for wanting to hold power in her own right. It’s what she does with the power she has that makes it a bad idea. http://xkcd.com/385/
And for those who have read ADWD Compare Dany/Daario to Tyrion/Shae. I found Meereen pretty tedious too, but Daario is no worse than the rest of it. Horny single girl finds bloke she likes, sleeps with him and thoroughly enjoys it, ditches him so she can get on with her job, still likes him but sends him away. And she’s a teenager. In reading, it dragged- but so did everything else on Essos.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
The remarkable thing to me about the source material is how many of the female characters are dramatically breaking out of quite rigidly established gender roles and succeeding in unlikely ways. I wouldn’t count Cercei or Catelyn on this list, necessarily, because both conform fairly well to cultural expectations for a Queen or a Lord’s widow, although both take to the roles in exceptionally active ways. I am rereading aFfC, and it is interesting to contrast Catelyn with Theon’s mother, who has been weeping in her tower because her sons are dead for over ten years, while Catelyn snapped out of it after a little over a month.
Here, however, is a list of female characters who are fulfilling truly exceptional roles, outside the bounds of what their society accepts or approves:
- Danerys, Mother of Dragons, leader of a Khalasar and Free-er of Slaves
- Brienne, warrior
-Melisandre, sorceress and kingmaker
- Asha, ship’s captain, and wannabe Queen of the Ironborn
- Arya, Faceless Girl
- Sarella Sand, Undercover Acolyte
I’d also like to give honorable mention to the rest of the Sand Snakes, the Mormont women, Ygritte and the rest of the Wildling Women, and even Harma Dogshead.
Martin’s world may have some stereotypical women and weak women, but it is the strong women who make the series remarkable,
littlejanetQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
You nailed it. That’s exactly what bothers me, the double standards. It’s okay when the men do it but when the females do it, all they get is hatred and insults.
When the characters who are constantly put down by fandom, at times in some really vicious ways, are always female…it’s time to stop and wonder why.
The BullQuote Reply
littlejanet,
Well done. Totally agree.
AssuntaQuote Reply
“Dumb whore” is certainly a stupid way to describe her (not dumb, and as noted above “whore” is an insult directed at female sexuality), but GRRM does create a character it’s really easy to hate. I hated her.
But then he does something very interesting with that hatred in ADWD: her long-awaited comeuppance is actually a really uncomfortable experience for the reader–that is, it was for me, and I think it’s meant to be. The brutal misogyny of the experience makes it clear that what she’s being punished for isn’t all the genuinely bad things she actually did; she’s being punished by the misogynistic head of a patriarchal religious institution for going outside the boundaries of the gender roles they consider acceptable.
Tom HiltonQuote Reply
While I appreciate strong women, I think the term is used rather artificially in discussions like these. We never note “strong men” because we don’t have this similar requirement for them to prove themselves worthwhile characters. There’s more to being a compelling character than “strong”. Is Theon “strong”? Is Tyrion “strong”? Do we care? Robert is strong in that he can beat people up, but he’s weak too, he’s self-pitying and self-indulgent and often can’t control his impulses.
I think what gives ASOIAF a lot of potential is that its women have depth and dimension. Weakness is part of the human condition too, and if it’s valid to explore that in male characters it should be just as valid to explore that in female characters without penalty. While defying dehumanizing gender norms is a very important part of understanding what it means to live as a woman in a sexist society, there is more to a female character than how they rate on the scale of gender norm defying. I love Arya for her fierce resistance, but I love Sansa for her exploration of traditional concepts of femininity just as much.
OJQuote Reply
I think people can frequently confuse the author or even the books with his characters or the narrator. Martin is shielded a bit from this because he has so many different POVs, some of which conflict in philosophy with another. But I imagine if the whole series were told from Littlefinger’s POV somehow, Martin would definitely be drawing accusations of sexism- and even more of misanthropy than he already does.
I think it’s worth exploring the difference between sexism and misogyny a bit. Sexism would claim male superiority while misogyny for the most part would just hate women. I don’t think people are making any claims that the show or books make the men out to be better than the women or inherently deserve to rule. And as far as hating on women goes, I haven’t seen it said lately but I completely agree with the whoever was the female fan who pointed out the biggest misogynist in ASOIAF, as becomes clear later in the books, is Cersei. She still combats sexism though by asserting her right to rule. This is especially true when fighting back against her interloping brother who is Hand and treats her with contempt, never listening to her while stealing her ideas. OK maybe Tyrion is the biggest misogynist by the last book, it’s a toss-up.
SkipjackQuote Reply
The only thing I have a problem with in the TV series is the amount of gratuitous female nudity compared to, what, one scene of male nudity (Theon)? For those who say, “but there’s the scene of Jon, Robb, and Theon getting shaved,” no, this is not a nude scene. Nor is the scene of Loras shaving Renly. If they’re going to have nudity, they need to show more penises.
One thing I have always loved about the series is the well-written female characters who go against type. Daenerys is no damsel in distress; she’s strong, clever, and devastating when she needs to be. Brienne is one of the most powerful and talented warriors in the series. Arya is a tough little survivor. Were it not for these ladies, and to an extent Catelyn and Sansa, I probably would not have become a fan of this series.
DreamlifeQuote Reply
I hope I’m not being forward but are the people calling for male nudity calling for it for their own prurient interest or in trying to right a wrong by having an imbalanced nudity ratio fixed? If anyone is interested in answering, please don’t say both but rather which one you feel more strongly about.
My own theory on why there isn’t more male nudity is that after Hodor dropped trou, all the guys said, “No way I’m going to compete with that” and refused any nude scenes. That might be it for the rest of the show unless they saved Hodor’s hodor in a drawer.
SkipjackQuote Reply
I think sexism is great in a fictional story. Makes the story more interesting and fascinating. I don’t want GoT to be like real life where feminists want to equalize the sexes 100%.
Having a gender discussion about GoT for me is utterly disinteresting, however. I just don’t get people who watch the tv-show/read the books then starts discussing how the different genders are portrayed in the story.
johnQuote Reply
Skipjack,
I think this is at least in part because it’s been stated in many places that GRRM’s favourite character is Tyrion, and this is a character I’ve found less and less likeable as the books progressed. Some chapters I found quite difficult to read, partially simply because of the content and partially because I know the character seems to have undentable popularity. I found some of the thoughts and actions, particularly relating to women, really horrible. I don’t have an issue with these things being in the book- in the story people do bad things, I can dislike the character- but if people associate the author more with this character than the others, it’s not a great impression.
Fortunately, the same man writes all the characters I do love, including many female ones. So I don’t think the accusations stand up, but if you got the wrong chapter as a sample it might well seem that way.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Skipjack,
Maybe the point is that male fans get to be prurient without scrutiny while female fans have to do this hoop jumping trick where they have to earn the right to be what male fans already are. Some people are pruriently interested in Dany and Ros and whatnot, and personally the case I’m making is that the show is pruriently interested in them. If prurience is fine, I think that’s a valid stance, but then it should be consistently fine. The imbalance is important because it assigns the object status to one gender alone. Martin makes sex a part of his story, sometimes for no other reason than to make the audience feel desire, so a purist argument would state that the show ought to include it that way too. But for me the more critical argument is balance.
john,
Maybe if you’d lived your whole life consuming fiction that marginalizes you on account of your gender, race, sexual orientation, etc, you would care. As things are, the reason why HBO should care, regardless of whether or not you do, is because marginalized people still have a lot of buying power. We’re consumers too.
OJQuote Reply
Personally, I thought Littlefinger’s sexposition scene in the brothel was over-the-top and unnecessary. Part of that was it was just hard to imagine the character blathering on about Catelyn and Brandon Stark with the women he’s talking to carrying on like that – it didn’t seem at all authentic, whereas the Theon, Viserys and Tyrion scenes did.
I know the gentlemen fans appreciate all the T&A, and frankly I don’t mind too much myself.
There are a number of leading male actors with attractive bare chests. I was also charmed by Tyrion’s bare little legs scurrying under his nightgown (I’m thinking Ep. 1). As for penises, really I can live without.
littlejanetQuote Reply
If truth be told; the majority of strong, well-rounded and amazing female characters I’ve ever discovered through books have come from the world a song of ice and fire. They are complex, intriguing and well written characters with flaws and shortcomings. They are aware of the lot they’ve been dealt by life and have decided, each in their own way, to fight for their families,for their desires, hopes and freedom; and for themselves.
lenaQuote Reply
I must say that it would be much better using diferent women. Because it would be the right effect. It would depict it as it is. That those who go with prostitutes do not care about them, they are faceless indeed in that respect. If it was 10 diferent whores in show doing “sexposition” role, there would not be that much opposition. Because:
a) it does not differ from canon lore, whores are all-present in Westeros
b) with just one regular whore you get the feeling this is the only whore in whole westeros, while the reality is much more diferent and darker
c) Ros does not contribute to the story in any possible way, so she is a dead weight, something that does not go in GRRM’s world
My dislike for Sansa and liking of Arya comes from their attitude toward family. Arya is Stark to the bone and loyal to her family to the end. While for Sansa, for her to change the opinion that Joffrey is not realy that cool is needed her father’s head on a spike. The thing is I blame Sansa for Eddard’s death. It might be unfair, but if Sansa listened to her father and packed her stuff and silently prepared for her and sister’s departure from King’s Landing they would be safe. Eddard might still die, but game of thrones would take an interesting turn when Sansa and Arya appeared in Winterfell. There would be no reason for Catlyn to release Jaime for one thing, witch would mean that Karstarks would still be with Starks in other words, Red Wedding would me much more unlikely. Robb would not have any reason to raid Westerlands. And Stannis could win the battle at Blackwater.
All that just from Sansa not runing and telling Cersei what Eddard is about to do. All that if only Sansa stayed loyal to her family.
This might be enfuriating for some, but decision between family (good, healthy relations) and some jerk you think you are in love with should be easy.
But then again, I also dislike the path Dany went down in ADWD.
AstalnarQuote Reply
Sexism in the fan community is not isolated to ASoIaF. It is, I fear, just a part of the larger and more disturbing trend of misogyny on the internet. Just about anywhere you go online, you’ll find misogynists making complete asses of themselves. I have little else to say on that matter. Much like trolling, it exists, and there’s nothing to be done about it other than to ignore it.
On the matter of sexism in the story, I feel much of the criticism is unjustifed. First, the historic era being emulated in the story was a different time. To represent it differently would be dishonest.
However, this is not historical fiction. It’s fantasy, so the argument that Martin was under no obligation to have women treated like that in the story is totally valid. He could have just as easily drawn a world where women were on equal footing or even positioned higher than men on the heirarchy.
What that argument ignores is the purpose of fantasy, fiction, and any type of storytelling at all: to offer a reflection of the world we live in. Frankly, sexism and misogyny is still very much present in the world we live in. To fail to represent these issues in the narrative would not only be dishonest from a historical perspective (which doesn’t really exist for fantasy anyway), it would be dishonest as a reflection of the real world.
I don’t understand how the advancement of women’s rights would in any way be helped by a story that puts forth a world where everything is okay and the sexes are on equal footing. That’s not the world right now; maybe someday, but not now. Pretending that it is otherwise would be dishonest. On the other hand, reading about women who endure against extreme adversity could be empowering to female readers. With the right interpretation, it could inspire them to break through the barriers in their own lives. Isn’t that what feminism is all about?
By making things so much more difficult for the women in the story, Martin is adding strength to their characters, because there is not one of them, even Sansa, who comes out of her crucible a weaker person.
Dan MQuote Reply
I agree iwth this completely. With the book being written by a man, it’s impossible to avoid a male gaze in the text (though GRRM could benefit from some frank conversations with women about female sexuality before he writes twow :p).
However with the show the opportunity exists to make things a bit more even… and this opportunitey has been largely ignored. For example wtf was that scene with Renly and Loras? That could have been HOT, and if a woman had written it (or a gay guy) it would have been. Instead it was just weird and akward becuase D&D don’t seem to understand that a little making out would have made that scene.
I will point out that (IMO) the best written episode was #6, written by the great Jane Espenson.
userjQuote Reply
Hating character is a book is weird anyways.
Catelyn path only shows a person dealing quit good with loose.
Dani story(I haved start ADWD yet) is a little bit on the fantasy site, but that i like. It also shows I guess how difficult it is to realise a good idea in real world. would call that stupid.
Arya’s story is pure fun, but a bit over the top.
Sansa naive yes, stupid no. she is a pawn in a game and she doesnt no the rules. She is very much like her father in that.
Cercei, she is not even the villian. If anything she is a victim of her lifestory.
Having Tywin Lannister as a father, her mother died giving birth to tyrion, her relationship with jaime, having to play the grown up lady of the house, the prophecys(having once life & death laid out for you and seeing it come true bit by bit), the marriage with robert…
and not being suspicion & having paranoia.
Michael TschuertzQuote Reply
Great topic. I believe this fandom is at least 50% female, but you wouldn’t know it after visiting the major forums because a huge number of the female fans are simply too uncomfortable to give their thoughts in an environment where the loudest voices are often sexist and misogynist. This is why so many of them have based their discussion on tumblr and LJ.
My main frustrations in fandom’s common reading of the characters are:
1. the moral/obligation double-standard accorded to males and females, ie; Cersei is a whore, but Robert is just a dude doing as dudes do; Cersei is a bad mother, but Robert’s complete absence and ineptitude as a father is not factored into Joffrey’s issues (when it IS canonically a factor); the clash of Jon’s early idealistic vision of the Night’s Watch with the bleak reality as sympathetic, whereas the same situation for Sansa is somehow deserved because she’s such a “bitch,” (meaning, because her idealism is coded feminine and Jon’s is masculine); criticizing the female characters for “using sex as an instrument of power” while the entire society gives males power and privilege based on sexual dominance.
2. diminishing the narrative importance of female characters as accessories to their male acquaintances (claiming that Brienne only serves Jaimes character development rather than having a narrative of her own, refusing to acknowledge that Catelyn has a POV because she has her own story, not because she’s simply an insight into Robb’s story)
I think sometimes these can be attributed to comprehension laziness–failing (not always willfully) to move beyond a setting that institutionalizes male privilege in order to recognize that the narratives actively refute the gender-role distillation of the characters. But part of it genuinely feels like fandom misogyny, and it becomes difficult to participate in discussions when a large chunk of the fandom engages in gender-biased interpretations so vehemently and refuses to consider that their readings may be problematic.
BMQuote Reply
Have you made a comparison to Mad Men yet? I don’t know it well enough, but I see parallels in story-internal misogyny and stong female characters. Do the creators get any flak, or is all “oh, it’s a potrayal of an era”?
houndlover,
It could well be that those differences in female reader numbers are not statistically significant, just noise (i.e. they are actually evenly distibuted).
Hear Me RoarQuote Reply
As a rape survivor, I can tell you there is NOTHING about GOT books or HBO that bothers me, sex wise. Why? Because it’s not real. It didn’t really happen. It’s a story. It’s entertainment. Use it for what it is – I am very entertained by Theon’s package, love him! Hope to see more this season.
Jen@House StarkQuote Reply
I’m only commenting because I saw the remark about the pay gap between men and women. It sparked the inner nerd in me to speak up because my passion is economics. Most people think about this issue on a very superficial level. When you delve more deeply into the economics of why this is so it becomes clear that it isn’t because of sexism. Here is Dr. Walter Block explaining why this gap exists for any who are interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAzkQWgIEbU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
DanQuote Reply
Hear Me Roar,
Both Mad Men and ASOIAF/GoT deal with a fair variety of female characters behaving and reacting realistically within a very purposefully sexist setting. But Mad Men explores the ramifications of sexism to a much more nuanced degree, and the issues of gaze/nudity/sex are nonexistent really. GoT is a lot less introspective, though IMO they could have chosen to adapt the source material in such a way that capitalized on its more thought provoking, rather than sensational, elements.
But HBO/GoT has to deal with different profit concerns than AMC/Mad Men. Anyway, they are similar in a very broad way. Matt Weiner gets less flak because he is so much more obviously concerned with sexism (and to an unfortunately much lesser extent, homophobia and racism), but the show does come under criticism for glamorising a sexist era with its very attractive visual style. IMO there is a ceiling when it comes clarifying that you are depicting problematic things rather than celebrating them (look up the TV Trope “Truffaut was right”) but I think GoT is still pretty far under the ceiling. I can respect that B&W have their work cut out for them because the story is so dense, but at the same time I don’t think that it’s impossible.
OJQuote Reply
john,
But isn’t your disinterest a bit revealing in and of itself? Perhaps the reason you don’t feel the discussion is necessary is because you as a male (I’m assuming you identify as male based on your name) have never experienced what it’s like to be on the wrong side of gender-based privilege, or lack thereof. The fact that you (and many others) don’t see anything compelling or urgent in discussions like these is the very reason we need to have them.
BMQuote Reply
OJ,
Sadly, you’re right, but IMO the use of the word “whore” isn’t related to the number of people somebody sleeps with, but to the reason why (s)he does that. Robert’s not a whore, and neither is Theon. Cersei, sometimes, is (inASOS) and I guess I can use the word in relation to the whole LF & Lysa thing in ASOS.
Well, I think that DanyDaario was WAY better and HEALTIER than Tyrion Shae. I hated her arc, but NOT for that reason. I hated how Dany completely lost her mind, but I enjoyed her relationship with Daario, and he actually seems to care about her. Dany’s problems don’t come from that, while Tyrion’s affair with Shae was the source of many of his troubles. Anyway didn’t ditch Daario. At all. I wish she had.. we would have saved many boring chapters.
DEFINITIVELY. Way more than Tarly senrior will ever be.
Shinyteapot,
This. I dislike him too. He’s incredibly misogynist, self-piting and a huge jerk. The fact that he’s witty isn’t enough to justify his being a dick, and I will never understand why people like him. If I want some black humor, I can read a chapter involving Stannis or Later.Books!Jon
Eddard was person who caused his downfall. Sansa caused HER OWN downfall, because she could have escaped, but I think that all the things she had to endure after Ned’s death were a big enough “punishment” if she ever needed one. Please, compare Sansa to AGOT!Jon, maybe it’ll be easier because we don’t have that many Sansa POVs in the first book. They both had their heads full of fairy tales, because it was what they wanted to believe…she thinks she knows everything, because she’s that young. … can you blame somebody for this? Especially an 11-years-old girl? I don’t think so.
(Team Sansa FTW)
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Hear Me Roar,
Mad Men is an interesting comparison, because it really is about sexism in many ways. And is not about racism in the same way, though so many fans would like to see that addressed. But I think racism is not it’s “beat”. I believe the majority of writers working on Mad Men are women, including Marti Noxon who took over from Joss Whedon as showruner on Buffy.
I don’t think Game of Thrones “erred” by not having more women writers (though it did have Jane Espenson) because the saga is not about sexism, or particularly about patriarchy in my opinion. It really strikes me that the whole thing is a meditation on the use of force in society, and what happens when your social institutions cartelize the use of it. The roles of the sexes reflects that on-screen, with women carving out particular niches in serving the cartels in a warrior society.
SkipjackQuote Reply
It’s a fictional story about a fantastical world. I want it to keep it that way. I fully am aware that it’s written by a real man, living in a world with a history of gender inequality. I just want it to keep it fantastical instead of incessantly dissecting every part of it.
Once the characters start discussing gender questions in GoT, I’ll get onboard. Of, course, that will never happen. It’s not what the story is about. This whole discussion is constructed by people who have every desire to draw parallels to “our world”. I am not one of them.
I’ve never felt privileged to be a man.
johnQuote Reply
I don’t know, I don’t really like the idea that women writers are only valuable to have because they have commentary to offer on sexism. A woman’s viewpoint on power and force is just as valid, and arguably has different things to offer than a man’s, probabilistically.
OJQuote Reply
All these posts are subtitled:
How I justify the sexism in my favorite show Game of Thrones. (Even though I am a —-gasp—–female!)
Good for you!
But there is still sexism in Game of Thrones. A shit ton of it!
And some people don’t like it. Or fantasy. Deal with it.
I’m sure many more women watch Mad Men (and absolutely love it) than Game of Thrones.
Epic The BallsQuote Reply
john,
While ASOIAF may not be a feminist tract it certainly has a lot to say on gender. If you’re not seeing that in the story, if you see the story as pure escapism without any ambitions of adding commentary to the real world, I think you’re missing a lot in the novels.
But anyway, if you’re not interested in the discussion why not just participate in another thread? When a thread comes up on a topic I’m not interested in, I just don’t post in it. I don’t go in and announce “Hey guys look, you know this thing you are all interested in? I’m so not interested in it! Just so you know!”
OJQuote Reply
I’m LOLling here. I must point out to you that what you wrote is the very definition of privilege.
SkipjackQuote Reply
Long time follower of the site but first time posting! I’m an avid reader of basically anything I can get my hands on and the ASOIAF series are genuinely some of the best stories I’ve ever read. It took me a while to pinpoint exactly what it was that made me fall so head over heels with them but the characters are the best thing about them!
I genuinely think Martin has written characters so brilliant that they jump off the page, you feel like you know these people. No single character is perfectly good or bad, they’re brilliantly complex. The bad guys are so bad you love them and the good guys have their moments when they feel like throttling them!
I guess my argument is that the idea of sexism in the story hasn’t occured to me once while watching or reading, just that I’m experiencing a vivid, exciting and absorbing world. Yes its got violence, murder, rape, flaying and all things nasty but we wouldn’t be so obsessed (well I’m completely obsessed anyway) if it was all sweetness and light now would we? :)
GgQuote Reply
Well, I never think I’d rather be a men, and sometimes I think that many discussions about misogyny are redundant and that many women are way too touchy about the whole topic, exactly as many people are touchy about other subject (anybody said RACEGATE?).
Anyway I enjoy this kind of discussion because I think it’s very interesting to understand how other people think, and I’m glad Fury wrote this editorial :)
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
I have such a lot to say, on several subjects arising from this thread, that I will try to make each point briefly, and can expand if so desired.
Fury, bravo for a brave and substantial post. This place is going to be the better for your new role here.
Much and more has been said about the setting being sexist, and this is to some degree true — but the High Middle Ages and the Renaissance were also times when, as growing wealth and abundant food supplies increased and specialization of labor in the cities increased, women began to gain in power relative to men (who did remain superior overall), especially at the highest levels. Eleanor of Aquitaine and Elizabeth I were exceptionally successful, but by no means unique among their contemporaries. The fascination with Courtly Love (a direct ancestor of the modern fantasy genre) was a manifestation, largely, of the chaos in society that the growth of female power and position created for those people. Shakespeare (whose worldview has a good deal in common with GRRM) empowers women to a degree never seen before in such a body of work, and he does not fail to include sexism or violence against women in his writing at all.
Fantasy fandom (at least in the United States) is often incorrectly lumped in with science fiction fandom as being male-dominated. Frankly, sf fandom is not all that much male-dominated, and in the 21st century is much less so than it was fifty years ago; and there have always been lots of women involved with sf art and costuming.
That said, I can speak with some authority on the subject of the history of fantasy fandom, which has always been much more nearly evenly peopled by males and females. By the 1090s I would say that the numbers have been about 50/50. I imagine that publishers have some interesting demographic information similar to what WiC had to say about the skew in gender about GoT watchers (though the Nielsens may have too small a sample size).
In her first chapter, Sansa is shown to be clever and charming. Her fault has never been stupidity (LF might lust over her but would never love a stupid girl) but a lack of wisdom and experience. By Feast, she is making up much of that ground.
Finally, someone should say that there is a legitimate argument (even if it isn’t one I support myself) that anytime you show a female body, especially an attractive one, even if fully clothed but especially in the nude, you are committing violence against women by objectifying them. It is easy to see why people object to showing blacks as shiftless or stupid, even though there are some black people who are shiftless or stupid; it reinforces the stereotype and at least it should not be done lightly. By the same token, if you only have one Jewish character in a story, it’s best not to show him as being greedy or scheming. Women have been at a disadvantage (to say the least) in society for the length of human history, and thus the way that any storyteller deals with them can be scrutinized and deconstructed.
Yet if you want to show the depredations of war, which is an important part of ASOIAF, an indispensible part of that is to unflinchingly show what happens to women in a war zone. Setting aside for the moment the exceptional instance of Dany and Drogo, the series has yet to deal much with the subject of rape. If showing women in any sexual way at all is objectionable to some people, showing rape in any way must be much more so. Yet if B&W skirt around doing this in Season 2, let alone leave it out entirely, it would be doing criminal violence to the books they are adapting.
Vast numbers of fan writers have agreed with GRRM that HBO is the best possible place for this show to be aired; maybe not the only place anymore, but the best. But to show it on HBO makes the female nudity and the display of sex on screen even more necessary than it is to remain remotely faithful to the books; the series has had more sex than the books did. Anybody who cares about the books at all, it seems to me, should complain loudly if anyone ever tries to adapt them in a sanitized manner.
We never saw the scene where Ned has lunch with Pycelle and meets his serving girl. Instead we got the Grand Maester’s scene with Roz, and we needed more Pycelle. Save perhaps for Roz’s farewell to Theon, this scene developed her personality more than others. I hope that the scene in Pycelle’s bedroom this coming season includes Roz rather than that serving girl. Roz could certainly take the part of one of the girls at Chataya’s, if we are getting Chataya’s at all.
Maester TcostQuote Reply
I’ve often been glad that I was a man…
stileQuote Reply
Of course the novels depict sexism and rape and the dark aspects of humanity. It’s a dark fantasy. That doesn’t make them misogynistic. Though I’ll add that I think the main thing that prevents such a view is that the women are given voice in the books. When it’s depicted on screen, we lose that perspective (along with that of the men), and that can cause what we’re seeing to stray further into the realm of misogyny because no one speaks up about such things (it would be out of character). I think Arya is the only character who escapes this problem of being flattened by the camera lens, and is perhaps one of the reasons many people like her.
I continue to take issue with the idea that Dany’s wedding was non-consensual. In the books it was always clear that she did choose her path for good or ill. Her choices were not the best, but she chose to consent and say yes. And I have a huge problem with how the TV show changed it. It does change Dany’s character, it makes her weaker and less decisive, and really less hopeful, as her willingness was a move to a life not always controlled by her brother.
Catelyn has always been problematic for me. She’s stupid but thinks she’s clever. Just in her case it takes a more motherly form than it does with Cersei. She’s just not cut out for politics, or perhaps just not cut out for being away from her children. She thinks too emotionally. Cersei as well oversteps herself in thinking she’s “Lord Tywin with teats.” There’s not really a middle aged woman of good sense or good principle. And while one with principle would likely end up dead like Ned, one with sense might have navigated things better than Lysa or Cersei or Catelyn. Instead the girls who look like they have a chance of surviving have men to guide them (Arya & her various mentors, Sansa & Littlefinger, Dany & Ser Jorah and other mentors). So only men can really teach a girl to rule & fight & scheme. And that’s a bit of an issue.
Anyway, it’s not misogynistic so much as limited by the setting, the medium, and the requirements of starting the story.
World DancerQuote Reply
Speaking as a man, the rapes don’t bother me none.
If you are a girl and you like Game of Thrones, stomp your feet. Make it loud and proud.
Yeah If you are a girl and you LOVE Game of Thrones, clap your hands!
Yeah!!! You go girl! No sexism is gonna keep you from lovin this show up and down.
If you want more dicks on the show stomp your feet!.
…. wow
See Ginia? You were wrong. Women don’t want sex on the show… or I mean, they want more dicks.
Epic The BallsQuote Reply
In the book, it was pretty clear that Dany’s wedding was NOT consensual. I’ve always had trouble understanding her “yes” on her wedding night, which I attributed to a desire to change her life.. but it really feels wrong how, after a couple months of marital rape (IT IS rape. She was thinking to kill herself), Dany suddently “fell in love”. THAT it was makes her look weak. Plus, in the book she’s 13 and Drogo in his early 30s. The fact that people think Dany&Drogo were a couple, and a romantic one, creepes me out. (this comes from a person who is perfectly fine with incest. Imagine that)
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
john,
But the characters are discussing gender in the text. Brienne, Cersei, Asha, and Arya’s chapters all have clear commentary on what it’s like to live in conflict with society’s gender expectations. What about characters like Varys and, in ADWD Theon, who I believe it’s implied has been parted from some of his genitalia who occupy two different roles as emasculated characters? What about gendered issues of inheritance and succession in AFFC, with Arianne advocating for Myrcella as an heir? Dorne’s greater gender and sexual equality in general? The text is saturated with gender discourse. It’s such a huge part of so many character’s narratives that I find it difficult to see how it can be dismissed without diminishing the power and narrative effectiveness of those characters.
BMQuote Reply
World Dancer,
Catelyn is not stupid, nor does she ever think she is clever. If you want a character who thinks s/he is clever, look at Tyrion. Catelyn does not ever sit around congratulating herself on … anything, really.
And anyone who calls Catelyn stupid and considers it “problematic” but can accept Ned or Robb is operating by a double standard, plain and simple. Also, Catelyn’s story is emotional because emotional things happen to her. Expecting her to be a model of cold logic when her whole family is dying is absurd. Tyrion acts absolutely illogically and emotionally when it comes to Shae, with whom he’s in some level of love, but he is allowed to have some plot elements separate from her. Catelyn’s whole story is defined by emotional significance.
If Cersei and Cat are too emotional, while Robert gets off the hook for letting his whole kingdom run to rot because he lost his high school sweetheart, or Tyrion gets off the hook for murdering a whore for pretty much doing the job he paid her to do, or Karstark gets off the hook for killing innocent POW’s because he grieved for his sons, or Loras gets off the hook for killing someone after his lover dies, then that is a double standard.
OJQuote Reply
This was posted while I was writing my earlier post, or I would have included it.
First, part of the book series (and the show too I think) really is about sexism. Sexism is not the main point, but even in Book 1 the stories of both Arya and Dany, and really those of Sansa and Cersei as well, concern resistance, even to the point of effective rebellion, against sexually assigned roles and behaviors. Sexism and its consequences is at the least a major subtheme, and Martin is against it.
Second, and more importantly, when a work of art like ASOIAF rises to the level that it has it needsto be analyzed and deconstructed. To do less is to accord it less than its deserved respect. Taken as a whole, ASOIAF is one of the greatest books of our time. In fifty years, if not less, there will be college courses on the writings of George R. R. Martin just as there are those on Tolkien or Dickens, both popular writers in their times, today.
Maester TcostQuote Reply
Yes, I agree. That episode’s writing was the best and I’d love to see more from Espenson in GoT. She was my favorite writer on Buffy as well.
I liked the Renly/Loras scene but I really wanted a touch of romance added to it. I’m really hoping for a lovely kissing scene for them this season.
As for the Littlefinger/Ros/Armeca scene is episode 7, the issues I see had nothing to do with the sex or nudity. For exposition’s sake, I can overlook the fact that book-LF would never spill his guts to a stranger, but I don’t think the writing was smooth at all in that scene. I quite like the metaphor for fucking Ned over, but in retrospect, I realized the problem was that it totally telegraphed what was going to happen at the end of the episode. Which is not so good.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
john,
It’s called appreciating the text, intellectual stimulation etc…it’s looking at something beyond entertainment value.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Epic The Balls,
Who DOESN’T want more dicks? I mean come on.
stileQuote Reply
It’s fantasy. There’s a whole world out there we can discuss. Real people, with real issues. For me, GoT is entertainment value, that’s it.
WiC get’s a female editor and (almost) immediately there’s a long post discussing “gender and Game of Thrones”. Who would’ve thought?
johnQuote Reply
Although I often curse Sansa for her naive choices in the first book, I love how she is developing and discovering her power as the series progresses. Whereas Arya started out likeable and plucky but is now going to a really dark place.
I identify most with Bran and Jon Snow but my favorites all have one trait in common. They play it where it lies based on the skills and knowledge they have at the time. It is why I’ve long forgiven Sansa for going to the Queen about her pending escape from King’s Landing.
Shock MeQuote Reply
So gender issues are only ever discussed or broached by women? And its the first thing that comes up when we’re given a forum to communkicate through. Seriously?
GgQuote Reply
As it´s very difficult for me to write elaborate thoughts in English I have to steal some of yours.
I don´t find what you (not you but everyone who says that) call strong women in this story. Arya is a survivor, but all children are in unusual or difficult circumstances and as you said (you worldancer) she´s not always without some kind of protection and when I think she´s the closest to a strong female personality I remember her character it´s quite masculinized.
I always end up thinking that the best characters are the wildlings.
andreaQuote Reply
john,
Thank you for demonstrating the exact reason why there aren’t more female writers and editors in this fandom; dismissive responses from those can afford to be dismissive.
BMQuote Reply
That whole world changes form person to person. GOT is something we all are familiar with. I think it’s better
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Then dude, just stop participating in the thread. Clearly it is about more than entertainment value for other consumers. That’s not going to change just because you keep announcing your tastes.
I don’t ever participate on WiC any more; Fury’s post is the only one I’ve felt like jumping into in a long time. Sorry that you can’t see past your own nose enough to understand why … actually I’m not sorry at all. Your loss. These conversations will be had whether they please you or not. You don’t have to participate, but then again, nobody made you post here. Seems like you’re the only one insisting on doing so.
OJQuote Reply
I asked Fury to write about her views on Game of Thrones and sexism. It is something that I thought was interesting and worthy of discussion. And I know Sue has a lot of thoughts and opinions about the topic. So far I think the post has spawned some interesting and enlightening discussion. If you don’t find it interesting, that’s fine, no one is forcing you to read the post or participate in the thread.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Psssst, Ginia Bellafante… you’re doing it wrong.
LexQuote Reply
I’m just curious, what are you afraid is going to happen if people have this conversation? We obviously see fertile grounds for discussion relating to it. How does it diminish your enjoyment when we talk about what it all means on a subject you aren’t interested in, even though we are also talking about you?
The ‘privilege of being a man’ which you made me laugh about earlier is in not having to think what something means for a woman, while what it means for a man is put right in her face.
OJ,
I’m not saying that commenting on sexism is the value of a woman writer, just that the show didn’t err in having the writers it did. That the sex of the writer was not material to the subject I highlighted, even if it could have added an even more interesting perspective. That is, I am absolving the show of obligation, rather than denying the value of a female contribution.
SkipjackQuote Reply
john,
OH NO! God forbid WIC.net have a female editor! God forbid that people (besides women) want to discuss gender! It’s not like gender politics is an important theme in ASOIAF and it’s not like there are female-identifying fans of these books or anything. Women totally don’t constitute for 50% of the world population, so why should we discuss gender?
It must be the end of your very small-minded world.
Your lack of respect isn’t very surprising.
~Purist~TearsQuote Reply
I think the discussion is trite. Maybe my comments don’t conform to your definition of “participation”, but all I am doing is giving my opinion, really. That’s what “Our is the Fury” asked for – our opinions on the subject. And regarding my comment of “privilege”.
Do people go around thinking about how privileged they are?
How lucky I was when I got drafted into the military. How lucky (or unlucky) I am every night out (or am I?). Yup.
I am sure the dead in Flanders Fields felt privileged to lay down their lives for their country.
Your victimization of yourselves (is that it?) has no bearing on how privileged I feel or don’t feel. Don’t ascribe onto me something that isn’t there, was never there, will never be there. My privilege isn’t equal to your victimization.
johnQuote Reply
Yes, Winter did suggest I write about this, and I was happy to. And you know, Martin’s books are so political that I don’t think it’s a stretch to find these issues in the stories. Sometimes people do try too hard to find subtext and isms in books and movies, but I don’t think George RR Martin expects people to ignore the gender and sexism issues brought up with characters like Brienne and the other women, or storylines like the Myrcella/Dorne inheriting stuff in AFfC.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
I didn’t like Littlefinger’s speech. While I get the point he was making (and that he was imparting some backstory to the audience), he knows full well that whores can be hired as spies- he does it himself. So I found him telling them everything absurd. The added sex was as far from subtle as it’s possible to be, but Littlefinger being uncharacteristically stupid is a worse crime to me!
Didn’t think much of Renly/Loras either. it conveyed that they were sleeping together, but it really didn’t show much by way of emotional attachment. There’s so few genuine loving relationships, it would be nice to see it there. Kissing would certainly help.
While I understand why Dany’s wedding night was changed- it simplified the story between her and Drogo a little- it detracted from Drogo as a character. In the book, it was one of the few glimpses that there’s more to him than scary warrior- he tried to make Dany comfortable. Doesn’t excuse the subsequent rapes (did he think ‘yes’ once meant forever or did he not notice the pain he was causing? or not care?), but Drogo was written as more plot point than character (book and tv) and needed all the depth he could get!
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
john,
Ignoring your inane attempt to deny the existence of gender privilege because men are asymmetrically targeted by the draft (yes I’m sure that really negates all the points Martin makes through Cersei, Asha, Brienne, and Arianne, very decidedly unsubtle points about women suffering in a sexist society) — you gave your opinion that you don’t find the topic interesting. How often do you really need to state that in the topic? We get that you find it trite and beneath you. So what? You’ve said it. We heard it.
OJQuote Reply
I was merely addressing the fact that I don’t go around feeling privileged all the time. I am not, never was privileged “because I am a man”. I might be privileged because I was born in a western country and I have the ability to spend time discussing “gender bias in a fantasy world”, however.
johnQuote Reply
HUZZAH! Good Job Ours is the Fury!! I think this dirty laundry needed to be aired.
I actually included Martin’s book in a paper I wrote on my feminism evolution, and put it up on my blog: http://artofkelsey.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/reviewing-my-academia-literocracy-for-girls-a-gender-centred-narrative-of-literacies/
It’s in the section about literature and feminism
Kelsey CatherineQuote Reply
john,
Privilege isn’t something you feel it’s something you have. No one is claiming victimization here, and it sounds strange of you to say. You and I are privileged to be men in this world. The show brings up time and again what it means to be a woman in a man’s world, as well as the obligations of men in that man’s world (look at Samwell Tarly, Tyrion Lannister, and Bran Stark and the cost of not measuring up to those duties). That’s the basis of the discussion here, and it’s just as relevant to relating to the characters we see/read about as talking about their family or their love interests.
SkipjackQuote Reply
john,
We are likely to agree on much and I’m not going to waste a lot of effort and thread space obscuring what could likely be more fruitful exchanges. But one thing everyone couldn’t hurt from knowing: the possibility of privilege can’t be denied just because you don’t feel privileged. The whole point of privilege is that you have the luxury of not being aware of it at all. Whether you as a particular individual are or are not privileged, I’ve lost interest in discussing. But in general, the whole point of privilege is to state that people have the luxury of ignoring certain issues that others do not.
Were someone trying to dismiss the importance of the soldier’s woes in ASOIAF and in doing so dismiss your experience as a drafted male human being, that would be something. But nobody is doing that. Meanwhile, you’re here trying to deny the importance of a conversation that you have the luxury of ignoring. If the last word is important to you, it’s yours as far as I’m concerned.
OJQuote Reply
OJ,
Pardon me, that’s supposed to say “unlikely” instead of “likely”.
OJQuote Reply
An attempt to move the conversation on, something different. A purely practical point.
Quite a few of us have made the point that in order to avoid appearing sexist, deliberately or otherwise, if there’s going to be nudity there should be roughly equal amounts from both genders. A point which presumably applies whether it’s strictly necessary to the story or merely nice to look at. In general this is a very reasonable principle, one I agree with.
Practically, then, how should the showrunners go about this? Would you rather see a Theon style full frontal, which is not entirely realistic for a sex scene, or camera angles that conceal? Do topless men count as nudity in the same way topless women do?
Do the biological differences make the ideal of equal nudity unrealistic or not?
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
I am not oblivious to the fact that there are people, groups, who are privileged in this world. I was talking about my own experience.
I refuse to get put in a group of “privileged individuals”. To me that is collectivist thinking that I firmly oppose. Don’t tell me I am something I am not. Don’t portray “male privilege” as something that’s a universal true. Or that the premise that men are privileged is some kind of scientific fact. It’s an opinion.
johnQuote Reply
Not sure why my post about Ygritte has been removed. I think it says a lot about the sexism of asoiaf.
Epic The BallsQuote Reply
I think Asoiaf is in fact a feminist opus.
Almost all the great evil in that book origins from man thinking they know it better and women despairing at their unwillingness to listen/head their advice.
Robb marries Jeyne
Drogo won’t listen to the maegi
On and on
JennyQuote Reply
I think Asoiaf is in fact a feminist opus.
Almost all the great evil in that book origins from man thinking they know it better and women despairing at their unwillingness to listen/head their advice.
Robb marries Jeyne and refuses Cat who urges him to take a Frey.
Drogo won’t listen to the maegi.
Asha advising Theon to go home
There are countless examples.
Simone de Bouvoir would have dearly enjoyed it.
Saying ASOIAF was sexist ist like saying Platoon was a pro-war movie.
JennyQuote Reply
Sorry for posting twice. The mobile version gave a failiure notice.
JennyQuote Reply
I’m late to the party so I’m sure it’s been addressed before to some degree, but I’m not reading all 100 comments so there’s my disclaimer up front.
Also, I’M GOING TO BE DISCUSSING PLOT POINTS FROM BOOKS 4 AND 5, so rather than blacking out my whole post i’m just warning the uninformed up front.
One thing that continually strikes me as annoying regarding the whole sexism issue when talking about ASOIF is that people continually point to Cersei as being a great and strong female character. If you really read the books, you’ll notice that she isn’t that great a character in a whole lot of ways. I’m saying this up front, so keep that in mind while reading the rest of this post, but I don’t think Cersei sucks because she’s a woman. I think she sucks because she’s one of the characters that isn’t as great. The fact that she is a woman is just window-dressing.
Gregore Clegane is a bad dude. There’s nothing about him that is redeeming. It’s not because he’s a man, he’s simply a brute. A similar line of logic can be applied to Cersei. I’m going to try to address Cersei in chronological order (as her life’s timeline) rather than in the order we discover the details as I think that’s fair:
1. Cersei was Jaime’s twin (his OLDER Twin – and I think that Jaime is the Volanquar not Tyrion FYI) but he’s the boy so he’s the heir and he is groomed to rule. This annoy’s Cersei and for the rest of her life she feels slighted (a reasonable, understandable and altogether fair reaction) and she continually touches upon this during her chapters (“If I were a man I’d be Jaime”). She also compares herself to her father (“Tywin Lannister with teats”) which is wrong to do. More on that in a bit.
2. Cersei is a nasty person pretty much from day one. She hates Tyrion b/c he’s ugly and their mother died birthing him. She almost twists his penis off – not a nice thing to do. She probably kills Maggie the Frog, or at least hurts her pretty badly after hearing her prophecy. Also, not nice. This is just her personality. She’s a bitch. If she were a man I’d use the adjective “Asshole”, so use whichever one offends you less, but my point remains.
3. Cersei manipulated Jaime into giving up his inheritance (maybe latent jealousy?) and he joins the Kingsguard in order to be with her once she went off to marry Rhaegar. (“Is it the rock you want, or me?”). Things didn’t go as planned due to the Mad King’s actions and then Robert’s rebellion, but never mind that. Cersei has shown that she isn’t a good person – she was going to cheat on her husband (a husband she wanted rather than one forced upon her btw) and she was going to deprive Jaime of his birthright b/c she wanted to have her cake and eat it too. Not something a loving person would do to their brother or their lover, much less both (in Jaime) and a 3rd party husband (Rhaegar).
4. Cersei marries Robert. This one is complicated. It’s obviously a political marriage, but Cersei is power hungry and want’s to be queen so she’s not exactly forced into this one. She loves Robert for about 4 hours (until their wedding night when he whispers Lyanna) before she hates him. The show tries to make her more sympathetic by her claiming she loved him for “quite a long time actually” but that’s B.S. she also never had a child by Robert in the books “If she did she wouldn’t be Cersei”. Indeed, she claims to Ned that Robert got her with child once, but she had it taken care of.
5. Cersei’s affair with Jaime. Cersei then goes off on this long life as a married woman wherein she’s using her brother, cuckolding her husband and other related activities. I’m going to go ahead and flip the sexism coin back around at this point. People point to her as a woman being forced into this loveless marraige. Do we think Robert was less forced? Political marraiges are made against both parties’ wills, and in this equation Cersei and Robert are equally miserable and equally unfaithful. I don’t think this has anything to do with her as a woman, I think its just an indictment on the entire institution of political marraiges in general.
6. Skipping ahead through the whole power grab that Cersei did, murdering Ned (a political blunder btw) I’m just going to focus on Cersei as a leader. During the power grab she was fighting for survival so let’s allow her all sorts of evil actions, ruthless tactics and political blunders. Once she’s Queen in full control (Crows) she is simply a terrible ruler. She’s not a strong woman making the best of being in a man’s world. If you’re looking for that, go read Dany’s chapters. Cersei is a paranoid ruler who doesn’t understand the need for diplomacy. She thinks that everyone needs to do what she says b/c she’s the queen and uses the fact that she’s a woman as an excuse for why things don’t go as planned rather than taking the opportunity to do some self reflection. She thinks the Tyrells are basically actively trying to take over (not really the case) and she doesn’t care that they really are 1/2 to 2/3s of her power base and does whatever she can to piss them off, and lacks the grace to even truly pretend like she’s not doing that. She lives in terror of Maggy’s prophecy and tries to get rid of Margery for no rational reason and, lest we forget, she is basically a tyrant. She sends people to the dungeons to be experimented upon by Quiburn (sp?), she seizes lands (Rosby) and she screws over the economy by pissing off the Iron Bank of Braavos. This isn’t a leader making the difficult choices a la Tywin Lannister, this is a crazed dictator barely in control much more like the Mad King (to whom she is compared at least twice I believe).
In conclusion, Cersei should not be used as a feminist paradigm, but, that said, her actions are not the result of her being a woman. Cersei is simply an example of a bad ruler (they can’t all be good). The worst leaders we hear about frankly are men (1. The Mad King and 2. Viserys, who would have been a bad leader had he lived). The fact that she is compared to the Mad King is telling (I think Jaime compares her to him once, and I can’t remember the second reference off-hand but i’m pretty sure its there). Perhaps most telling, the two smartest people in the books – Varys and Littlefinger – both recognize that Cersei is a terrible ruler, and both want her in place screwing things up so they can use the chaos to advance their own ends. So yeah, stop lauding her and instead jump on team Dany (or team Jon, keep the hope alive!)
Nights KingQuote Reply
Well then I will say it again…with spoiler guards
Ygritte is my favorite female character. She’s tough, independent-minded, and free. A really strong female character.. Maybe the only one in the series.
So while she says “you know nothing Jon Snow.”, Jon manages to use her, deceive her, has sex with her, never intends to be true to her, kills her, and then forgets all about her (but isn’t the Wildling Princess pretty?)
Oh, war.. Terrible thing.
The fact that he wouldn’t do that to his brothers or to his undoubtedly weak future wife but does that to the strongest female character of the entire series is strange to me. This is an example of the author not being in complete control of his narrative, He is certainly aware most of the time of the sexism, but he does not have mastery over all the implications.
Epic The BallsQuote Reply
Magnus,
The cheery, hearty whore with a heart of gold is just another fantasy construct of the male mind. Feminists disagree about how voluntary the life of a modern sex worker can be (any protestations by some individuals to the contrary) even in the most “enlightened” of modern societies. The cheery whore is part of the fantasy male-dominated societies require to justify the power imbalance between customer and sex worker—the often indefensible difference in ages between the individuals involved; the nature of the acts to be performed for money; the lack of legal consequences for most customers; the prevailing view that paid sex is an acceptable way for the uncontrollable male appetite to be satisfied without a “victim,” etc. For customers, its transactional nature makes the act of prostitution “acceptable,” which I suppose it may be if the only alternative is rape or some other coercive act.
It’s ironic that the most central coercive sexual act in GOT is the consummation of an arranged marriage, and those on the widest scale are the rapes by the Dothraki while the acts of prostitution take place between equally jolly buyers and sellers. The perfect example of this is, indeed, the independent, mobile, sexually available, endlessly witty (to the writers, at least) Ros. Of course, Ros is supposedly an unusually beautiful woman….
But this IS the fantasy genre, isn’t it?
DH87Quote Reply
I would like to add my voice to those saying that I don’t really see sexism or mysoginy coming from either the novels or the show…Talking specifically about the HBO series, I think (just as in the novels) the world portrayed in it is brutal, nasty and harsh in many aspects, and the world is presented as such with all its complex and complicated nuances, including the roles and positions women play and occupy within that world. I for one am glad that there is no sugarcoating happening in the novels or the series!
I think that actually the female characters presented in the series (and novels which I’ve just started reading) are even more extraordinary in that they manage to be soo strong and not only survive but actually grow and flourish considering the odds they have to overcome. Besides, Dany and Arya are some of my favourite characters on the series, as are Cat, Cersey and am sure as more is revealed Osha herself. I cannot wait to see the new female characters who will be unveiled come Season Two. If you think about it, even Ros herself has a certain amount of power and influence because she plays off of the weakness and lust of all the men who come to her…thus making a living and getting whatever else she needs, and in Westeros, that I would consider strength!
As I’m devouring the first novel of “A Song Of Ice And Fire” “A Game Of Thrones”, I must say that I’m not getting a wiff of sexism or any such negative aspects coming from the pages. The writing is masterful to say the least, and there is a certain tenderness about the way the characters are introduced and handled (up to a certain point obviously).
I also found that even the “controversial” aspects of the first novel i.e. when Dany sleeps with Drogo was described in a manner that I did not find disturbing at all…of course you do realize her age and his age and all that that implies, but a lesser author could have handled that badly by making it salacious or gratuitous, but Martin handled it beautifully in a very appropiate and masterful way.
But back to the show, I think D&D and all the people involved in the series have taken that lesson from the books and applied it as best as possible in what is a very different medium. I have never felt uncomfortable watching the show, I do like Ros unlike many people (I hope Esme Bianco comes back to GoT), I have no problem with Renly’s scene, nor with the one in Littlefinger’s brothel between Esme Bianco and Sahara Knite…so on and so forth…
I always thought that HBO has done a good job when it came to portraying female characters, think of “Mildred Pierce”, Elizabeth I”, “Deadwood”, “Boardwalk Empire” and others. Just like their male counterparts, they are as flawed, good, bad, complex, and everything else…I’m thinking in particular of “ROME”, where at first glance the men are the ones who seem to be all powerful, but as the show unfolds one realizes how much more clever, influential and powerful the women are…just think Atia (Polly Walker)!
Maybe I’m not making a whole lot of sense with my glib and muddled posting but these are my two cents on all this…
loco73Quote Reply
This is being discussed quite a bit on the Interwebz in the context of the new film “Shame,” and the “continuity” challenges posed by male anatomy.
DH87Quote Reply
Fantasy, yes. I don’t know how cheery Ros is, though. I see her as a total professional- you don’t really know what she’s feeling, except for when Pycelle is rambling on and she looks bored as fuck. She gives Theon some shit about his status, and mocks him when he wants her to stay in the North. She’s really only looking “cheery” and “happy” in her first scene, with Tyrion. And that’s probably not an accident, since we’re supposed to like Tyrion. Ros works for Littlefinger now, so it’s less “happy hooker” and more “Mata Hari”- still sexual, but as an agent of sorts, not just a good-time provider.
I’ve become more fascinated by Cersei’s character throughout the books. I don’t think she is a nice person, she enjoys people’s unhappiness a lot, but I enjoy her. Part of her personality has most certainly been shaped by her enforced gender role. Martin touches upon this with her repeatedly in AFFC. Cersei would be heir and powerful in her own right if she’d been born a male. She resents that like hell. She can’t have the things she wants directly; she has to manipulate her husband and later her children’s lives to accomplish her goals. Everything she wants, she has to work through the system of men who are considered more authoritative and rightful in their roles- Tyrion as Hand, her father, her uncle and so on. Her life sounds incredibly frustrating. That’s a large part of her character.
It doesn’t make Cersei a “good” person, but it makes her a good and interesting character, I think.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
john,
That was a post of ‘Epic’ proportions. It’s that kind of attitude is why Hollywood still makes mindless garbage. Personally I will take ‘trite’ art and culture over entertainment value anyday. This may not be to your liking but why be a hard ass about it? I understand that you are being attacked in some form or feel that way and maybe are just being defensive but seriously what is wrong with analyzing text like ASOIAF?
What you need to see is that certain stories as fantastic as they might seem actually make parallels to real life. Please respect others that feel that way :-)
Also have you read the books? Because not everything about them is ‘entertainment’.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
purplejilly,
I agree with the adaptation of the wedding night…. in the book it felt a little too fairy tale whereas in the TV show it felt more realistic especially for the character of Drogo and all whole situation surrounding the marriage.. Dany is sold off against her will, she is barely a woman and now in a brutal society she knows nothing of….
Bevan AwaiQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
I agree with you 100% and I also loved this post. As anyone on this board has noticed I tend to take this stuff a little too seriously than others. Bring on the intellectual discussion. Can’t wait for the next one!
I also want to add that my highlight of ADWD was the Cersei chapters. She is a fantastic character. And a fabulous villain.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
loco73,
Or Gillian (Gretchen Mol) on Boardwalk Empire. Mol is Emmy bound me thinks.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Just wanted to address a few things in Night King’s post:
1. TBH all of Tywin’s children aspire to be like him and it’s not necessarily true for any of them, so singling Cersei out is a bit unfair, non?
2. Cersei doesn’t exactly grow up in a vacuum. If she’s a nasty person it’s partly a reaction to the atmosphere she lives in. Particularly as House Lannister is one of the most female-unfriendly houses in the Kingdoms (see: Tysha, Shae, also their bannermen: Gregor Clegane) plus since her mother’s death, she doesn’t really have many female presences in her life. The oppressiveness of the Westerosi patriarchy affects her from a young age and she’s internalised it and it’s hugely part of what makes her such a ruthless character.
3. Um, I’m pretty sure Rhaegar was long married to Elia by the time Cersei went to King’s Landing. After all, don’t we learn in AFFC that Cersei is around nine when Aerys turns down the marriage proposal? I could be wrong though – someone mind verifying this?
4. Cersei’s hatred of Robert isn’t wholly about Lyanna, it’s also about the fact that he spends seventeen years physically and sexually abusing her which is actually sanctioned by the law because it’s a ‘husband’s right’. When she kills Robert, it’s partly about a victim standing up to their rapist which is the action, to my eyes at least, of an incredibly strong female character.
5. Also the fact that Robert was forced into the marriage isn’t equal to Cersei being forced. Because once she married him, she basically is his ‘property’ and he has the right to maltreat her as he will. Cersei doesn’t hold that same kind of power over Robert. The fact that she decides to have Jaime’s children is a shot at the patriarchy because she’s reclaiming physical agency from the system that denies it to her – everyone else decrees that she doesn’t need to have control of her own body, that it’s not important whether or not she wants to have her husband’s children, and Cersei wrenches back that power by choosing which man shall be the father of her children. Which is again, an incredibly strong action because she’s basically rebelling against the collective and establishment in a way very few other characters in this series do.
LivQuote Reply
Josh Atreides,
I bet you’re feeling really cozy ganging up with everyone against one person who makes a completely valid point that I assume you don’t understand at all.
I don’t agree with John, especially about trying to be serious for a minute to a stack of rabid fans, but at least it is a point.
epic-ittyQuote Reply
Caedes,
Steve Hugh Westenra,
Where you two when I was attacking the LF brothel scene several threads ago? Yeesh! ;-)
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Epic The Balls,
Vulgar language perhaps?
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Excellent post is excellent, Ours is the Fury.
I think this quite a pertinent topic to the female experience in this fandom, and obviously by the comment count thus far it is safe to say you’ve hit a nerve. ;)
I’d say in my own experience there’s quite a lot of pressure to pass a certain threshold of knowledge just to be a fan without gender included, but once gender is factored in there is even more stress. Beyond the treatment of the female characters in discussions, which I think can prove to be quite uncomfortable for women especially when it becomes a derogatory slur session geared towards lady parts, I think there is an impression female opinions aren’t wanted on the series as a whole or on topics that are typically considered male interests. For example, I can only remember one female critic writing about GoT last season, and then there is such brilliance as “chicks only like the romance of the ASOIAF” out there, which makes ‘chicks’ forced to be on the defensive and to prove their ‘fan worthiness’ when it comes to expressing themselves on all topics related to the material.
I don’t think that type of misogyny is limited to this fandom, it’s certainly not in every fandom, but more importantly I think it is the largest issue this fandom has. And yeah, I believe the fandom’s sexism spills over from the text, which I have to say is troubling, for though Martin wrote about a patriarchal society it doesn’t equate to him glorifying it. But then again, just because someone read the books doesn’t mean they understood what was written.
As for Ginia Bellafante, I still laugh at her Hobbit comment. It seems very behind the times to me, since not only did I read The Hobbit on my own at a young age (though no doubt influenced by the cartoons), I was forced to encounter it as required reading in junior high school. Also, the neighboring high school did it as a school play, -I couldn’t have avoided it if I tried! So then, why would I force my reading group to read it? I’d have assumed they all read it previously too. lol. Point is, I think ‘fantasy’ became mainstream a long time ago, it only seems just recent that people have noticed women read it.
SerenaQuote Reply
Serena,
Serena,
Are you “Serena” Serena from another board? If so, hi, there.
DH87Quote Reply
Exactly, you can compare her to witchever Stark kid and Jon and any of the bunch would stick with the family to the very end. And 3 of them were younger than Sansa, althought, only thing we know about Rickon is that he is 3 years old and angry on whole world because father is not coming home. But Bran, Arya, Robb and Jon, they would and did without exception pull for the family in any way they could. Bran assumed the role of a lord in stead of his elder brother who marched to war, Arya tried to get home in every way possible, Robb went to war to get his father free and then to avenge him, Jon even tried to desert Night’s Watch to avenge his “father”. What did Sansa do? She got locked down. Even her escape is thanks to Littlefinger, not her own initiative. She is passive all the time. Only thing she knows to do is crying and praying to the Old Gods. The latter might even be useful after reading ADWD.
Yes, Sansa is 11 year old girl, but how come every other child except her elder ones and younger ones knew where their heart is and she did not. Her age should not be any excuse in a world where allegiance is of importance from early age onward.
P.S.: Jon had anything but fairytales in his head from early childhood on, Catelyn made sure of it. He joined the night watch because he saw it as the only option for him to make somethig for himself. That combined with saying that Starks have always manned the Wall and his desire never to sire a bastard helped him decide the thing. Catelyn helped as well, she did not want him as Winterfell after Eddard would leave for King’s Landing and presented Eddard with choice either to send Jon away or to take him with himself to King’s Landing. And at the end it was Eddard’s permission that granted Jon the possibility to join the Night Watch. Only fairy tale that crushed for him was that NW is long gone from times where lords and knights were joining on regular basis. Sansa on other hand, does not stop dreaming until she falls in Littlefinger’s claws later on and he starts to teach her a bit about politics.
AstalnarQuote Reply
Astalnar,
Astalnar,
I’m sorry to tell you that you are completely and utterly wrong (and maybe a little stupid too). I’m going to put this as simply as I possibly can for the sake of your feeble understanding abilities.
Ned’s death was as much Ned’s fault as it was Sansa’s. Yes, your beloved Ned played a major role in his own downfall, but of course that goes completely overlooked because of his manly manliness. If he hadn’t told Cersei to run because he knew her secret, Cersei would’ve never needed to plot against him (and ultimately win because she was better than Ned in ‘the game of thrones’) to have him thrown in jail to protect herself and her children.
Now before you go blaming Cersei for Ned’s death, remember that Cersei initially wanted Ned sent to the Wall. But of course, she along with the other council members grossly underestimated her maniac of a son Joffrey, who ended up ordering Ned’s execution.
Yes, see that there? JOFFREY is at fault, not Sansa. Sansa barely did anything to cause his death, in fact she actually saved his life for one more pf your dear ‘Eddard’ chapters so you should be worshipping her character at this moment and not going around blaming her for the Red Wedding? What?
I suggest you put these books down and relearn how to comprehend books.
DBQuote Reply
People bring up Sansa’s naiveté often to support one view or another, but I find Jon to be just as naive in the first book. Both grow out of it, as they are exposed to the world outside of their relatively sheltered life in Winterfell. A case can be made that one of the most naive characters in the first books is Jaime, who also eventually begins to grow out of it. So, I don’t see Sansa as being a poster child for sexism.
For me the strongest, most resilient character in the books is Arya. Her plotline is the antithesis of sexism. And Dany’s plotline in season 2 is going to be full of her struggle against sexism. That too goes against the idea of the books and series being sexist.
I think Ours is the Fury hit the target squarely by reminding us that at the end of the first season, Catelyn and Cersei and Daenerys are all widows who plot their own futures. They, and to an extent Arya (and I suspect at some point Sansa too), are strong and effective characters. I don’t see the sexism in that. I see it as the opposite, in fact. These women are shown to overcome the sexism inherent in their society and rise above it. GRRM does a fine job of making that a theme, without making it all about sexism.
LangkardQuote Reply
Astalnar,
You ask, what did Sansa do? Sansa did the only thing she could possibly do: SURVIVE. Did you read her chapters and inner dialogue or were you too busy crying over your missing Eddard chapters?
Sansa was ALWAYS thinking about her family. She begged for Ned’s life. That was the only thing she could do. You like Arya because she wanted to go back to her family, and yet you dislike Sansa for wanting the same exact thing. Something fishy there, something like underlying misogynistic feelings.
You think Arya is braver than Sansa because she was this close to making it back to her mother, think again. Arya was lucky enough to look like a boy, to be the daughter of Eddard who was friends with Yoren who took her in and protected her. Arya had it all laid out for her because she was lucky enough to have a means of escaping in the first place, whereas Sansa was trapped from the very beginning and had to wait for her means to arrive, unable to go anywhere without the threat of being killed lingering over her head.
As for Arya being a Stark, have you even read ADwD? Because she’s completely gone off the rocker and is the farthest thing (literally too) from a Stark at the moment.
Jon may have attempted to leave the NW, but he didn’t. And the fact that he ultimately didn’t should speak volumes to you.
If you want to praise any of the Stark children for their bravery and devotion to family, praise Sansa. Sansa lived through the abuse because she had no other choice. She fought against the will to attack the people around her because she was SMARTER than that, she new what she was doing. And let’s not forget to mention that she did jump at the first opportunity for escape: Dontos. Sansa was patient and clever, and now look where she is. She has successfully reached a member of her family she knows to be alive (Robert Arryn), going farther than Arya or Jon or Robb or Bran or Rickon. By trusting her own instincts and trusting the right people, she is safe and sound while your beloved Ned and Robb are dead and Arya is No One.
DBQuote Reply
She has to? well, she´s not an interesting character for me mainly because of that. Would be much more interesting if this rebellion she felt throughout her life (wich is good) wouldn´t have turned into resentment because resentment is a poison that makes you crazy and sad. Worst of all: when finally she gets what she wanted, she does everything wrong because of that resentment that turns into madness and finally into ineptitude. .
I don´t mean that she should be perfect just not that pathetic. I would love to find a Westerosi woman doing something right, not just kill, fuck or use a sword like a man. In fiction I will always prefer a villain who does things right, that´s more interesting to me than this waste of energy that Cersei seems to be.
I´m sorry if it sounds bad, I don´t mean to denigrate what you say I just don´t like Cersei at all.
andreaQuote Reply
I absolutely agree… And there seem to be an inordinately high number of pages in forums devoted to painfully circular arguments about the actions and intentions of a number of Martin’s female characters -Cersei Lannister, Sansa, Dany and the ever-polarizing Catelyn Stark. Having visited many of these pages (and running away from them with flames on the side of my face), I have to wonder how much of this is due to Martin’s intent to subvert most of the tropes and muddy-up the characters and how much is due to holding female characters up to double standards.
fywinterfellQuote Reply
Nights King,
I don’t think Cersei is a feminist hero, but I don’t think she has to be to be a good character who happens to be female, does she? Sansa isn’t a feminist paradigm either, or Catelyn, or even Brienne, or the Tyrell women, etc. But that doesn’t mean she’s not a worthwhile character to have, in terms of feminism and otherwise. She is cruel and dangerous when given power, for sure, but I bet we could say the same thing about Aerys once, yet that wouldn’t invalidate his contributions as a character.
I say, I really think people need to start thinking about female characters as more than people we want representing ourselves/our group. It’s just as important to allow female characters the darker aspects of humanity as it is the more heroic ones. Cersei is excessively and unjustifiably cruel, and warped, but she’s interesting, through her character Martin says things about human nature. And I think it’s okay to appreciate the anger she bears towards the patriarchy and the battling spirit and emphatic desire to control her own fate, in and of themselves, without whitewashing her.
OJQuote Reply
I’m just going to go out there and say I don’t care if the show or books are sexist, because I’d rather not read something politically correct…boring!
And I agree about the sexism coming from the fandom – it is up to us whether we want to take what Martin says seriously. But remember, if you take Martin’s word as law, you should take a look at yourself, and see whether you have a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality.
ElizabethQuote Reply
Gg,
GG – very well said: I couldn’t agree more with every statement.
Ours – thank you for the well-worded springboard for discussion. Great discussion all!
uno0Quote Reply
Ha! I am finally offended and amused. Thank you!
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
DH87,
Hey, DH. Yup, that’s me. ;D
SerenaQuote Reply
I think Ros gets shrugged off too quickly because A) there’s some explicit sex scenes with her and B) she wasn’t in the books. But let’s think about why two huge fans of ASoIaF (D&D) created her in the first place. Some extra T&A for the show? I don’t really buy that. In the book, there are elements of the characters, especially the more secretive and plotting ones like Littlefinger, that are explained through back story or even the inner thoughts of other characters. How do you express these elements in a television format while staying true to the character? Well, there has to be a character that the other characters don’t perceive as a threat. It’s not like Littlefinger can just walk up to Varys and say, “Hey, you know what? I am still in love with Cat and I want to take over the kingdom piece by piece and here’s how I’m going to do it.” Littlefinger can spill his guts to Ros because to him it doesn’t matter what she knows or doesn’t know. She’s “just another whore”. In that way, Ros actually serves as a third party narrator to the audience. I think it’s kind of unreasonable to call the infamous scene trashy when it actually contains some of the most character defining and compelling dialogue in the series. If you’re truly that distracted by simulated sex to not be able to enjoy good characterization then you’re watching the wrong show because reading between the lines is what this story is all about.
Caedes,
ScottQuote Reply
What a difference a day makes. In the last post I had my feathers clipped by a few people for a very debatable, very minor spoiler. Yet in this thread its been ADWD this, AFFC that and ASOS the other! Some with spoiler tags some without.!
Rant over!
Two FeathersQuote Reply
EDIT: Didn’t mean to reply to anyone in particular. First time poster lol
ScottQuote Reply
i think many of the women in a song of ice and fire are brilliant especially arya, sansa and dany. but in the books it seems that cersi is depicted as a bold, ambitious but stupid character, she may think that she is in control and is a contender of the throne but really she dosent stand a chance, what with Tyrion, tywin and little finger all undermining her. which im sure will be evident in the next series
Emmanuel,
HarryQuote Reply
People have been very vague about future books, mentioning character development and the like. They didn’t announce a future death or notable plot point.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
I’m not sure we have to think about it. D&D told us, and it had nothing to do with her importance as a character to the story. They liked Bianco and made up stuff for her to do, according to
http://www.screenjunkies.com/tv/tv-news/david-benioff-talks-game-of-thrones-season-2-and-beyond/
You met Ros. How do you like her? You’ll see her again:
“There’s a character named Ros played by Esme Bianco who’s not in the books,” Benioff said. “Someone who has a short scene in the pilot and we just loved her work and kept her on.”
DH87Quote Reply
Not really one for commenting on posts but I just wanted to say, Ours is the Fury this was such a great article! I’ve seen a lot of articles on various websites of late discussing Thrones and gender roles/sexism but yours was the first that I thought really did a good job of highlighting important points. Fantastic post, can’t wait to read more from you!
Lady DayneQuote Reply
I get it. Ros was a device to sexposition?
anyway… So she wasn’t purely for adding t&a as you say. Though it was convenient, right? Right? And that convenience…. is more relevant to this post than bad writing.
And now for something completely different.
And badly written characters doesn’t necessarily mean sexism, either. If people like Mad Men, Playboy Club, and Pan Am, which should GoT be sexist? Just because it’s medieval sexism, in other words awfully outdated and an acquired taste.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
My theory about the series is that it’s about people who are NOT big, strong, rich men with swords getting and keeping power in a world where big, strong, rich men with swords have ALL the power. The only “protagonists” who are big, strong, rich men with swords are Eddard and Jaime. And we know how that goes. :D
Dingo BehaviorQuote Reply
john,
First of all I wish to apologize for my knee-jerk reaction to your point of view, not just because you have been a hearty supporter of Game of Thrones on this board through and through but because I value your opinion. This particular thread is controversial for the proverbial can of worms it is opening up. Flames abound in message boards concerning A Song of Ice and Fire especially when the topic of discussion is Dany, Sansa, Cersei and last but not least Catelyn. Already we are seeing the aggressive posts typical of the extremist Cat and Sansa Defender/Haters. As one pointed out is a trodden out argument one of a cyclical nature. I hope these verbal skirmishes fizzle out and we can go back on the intellectual tract that was Ours is the Fury’s intention.
You mentioned you were a soldier. First of all please understand that I am in no way trying to be condescending, I admire you for that. I have many qualities and deem fighting for one’s country, protecting your loved ones as great calling, something of true purpose, but I don’t know If I could will my self to follow that path. I imagine as a soldier you have to deal with reality in a way none of us are truly familiar with. As a result, you probably find the escapism that is to be found in fantasy books and movies or comic books or video games a welcome respite from what you have to face day in and day out. It entertains you, it makes you relax and forget about the real world for a brief moment or too. I appreciate that. Then today you to come on this board which helps fuel your love of the story and see a post talking about a fantasy story in the fashion of some political debate I imagine that kind of robs the tale of its magic for you. That is a valid point my friend but my issue with it is not the point itself but how it is worded. But my issue is that I personally encounter so much hostility to different ways of thinking, of such resistance that something can be more than just entertainment but be something much more complex that I lumped your comments under that same brand of ignorance. I use the word ignorance in its full literal meaning, not to be insulting but to illuminate my argument.
Unlike you I feel I live a privileged life. There are many times when I wake up and thank whatever higher power that I was born a Canadian citizen in this day and age…let alone anywhere on the North American continent. I went to university and studied film and literature. I deal with that in every aspect of my daily life. I love art in all its facets, not because it is pleasing to the eye but because there is a story and an idea behind it, that whether its a painting, a sculpture or song or a book or a film it captures the human experience. Nothing pleases me more than to be drawn into a grand narrative and identify with the characters as I would with real people. Many of us on this forum who are contributing to this discussion are passionate about this text A Song of Ice and Fire and its television adaptation. Perhaps maybe we are too into it? But that is for us to decide. My father, was the son of a cop, he was raised in urban St. John’s with seven sibling in a low middle-class household. As the eldest son he enormous responsibilities on his shoulders. Here is a man who from the day he was born had to work hard and behave well in a household as regimented as his schoolroom. When he was twenty years old he found himself married and the father of a young girl, a union that would soon end in divorce. From then on he set out on his own across eastern Canada using his natural charisma, pragmatism and generous spirit to become a successful salesman. He remarried, had two children and supported them and my half-sister while working everyday of his life to ensure that we were happy. At the age of 61 he was given early retirement. Whereas my Mother grew up in a upper class household on Newfoundland’s West coast in a lumber hub called Corner Brook, her father was the treasurer of the company that owned the Mill. She had many privileges that my father did not therefore her education was rather more formal than the practical lessons my father had to absorb in his schooling. Both my mother and I read the same books, love the same films and show a passion for art. My Dad has very good tastes in books and movies, but he really only sees them as entertainment. Whenever he hears my Mother, sister and I talk about characters in a book or fil, he thinks we are being utterly ridiculous. We try to make him understand how we feel but it’s simply something he cannot relate to because we have not seen the world the way he has. Such is the nature of a privileged life.
If my interpretation of your viewpoint and my anecdote about my father reflects in some way your feelings towards this kind of discussion then please understand that I bear your opinion no ill will. What I do object to is how you worded your thoughts. I mean it’s either ignorance or arrogance that made you comment on a thread the way you did, especially a topic devoted to a scholarly discussion about what you construe as an entertainment. No problem setting your opinion, but really what kind of reaction to it did you expect? Personally I wouldn’t have commented at all if I felt the same way, or I would have been more diplomatic about my perspective. You were attacked however quite viciously by people who are sensitive to this topic of sexism and misogyny the poster laid out for us. Some responses were civil, some were cold and some may have been outwardly angry, knee jerk reactions (like mine) you defended yourselves within your rights and you may have said things that probably shouldn’t have said ie: the female editor comment? That’s stoking a fire that did not need to be stoked. Also, I am very sorry but you need to consult your history books because male privilege is a fact not an opinion. Just ask any woman murdered as honour killings, or the nearly million independent women who were burned alive as witches across the Holy Roman empire in the 16th and 17th centuries.How does this relate to Game of Thrones? Well, Martin’s text is a fantasy story and we can escape to its exciting world with abandon, but I think what makes his work much more accessible than any other fantasy is how he depicts this fictional world. He grounds it in a hyper reality by miring the traditional escapist gloss with the trials and tribulations of medieval life.
All great art, all great narratives are derived from real life. The settings are merely window dressing because what makes a great story is the characters. And characters are but cyphers for the author to depict living peoples within the confines of a narrative. And discussions such as these not only celebrate the stories that are brought to life on the page but they are also is a celebration of humanity itself, for better or for worse. What is trite about that?
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
Point being, there’s no real conceivable way to suss out character details without a character like that. Who else would be in the position to be close enough to lords and nobility that they might express themselves in such a way to him/her than a whore? Unless you want the writers to give Littlefinger and Theon girlfriends then I can’t really think of another way.
ScottQuote Reply
epic-itty,
Not cozy at all actually. I feel I was kind of a jerk to John despite the non diplomatic way he defended his assertion. While it pains me to admit it as you are my nemesis, I agree with your opinion of me at this present moment.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Agree. As Joyce has alter ego Shem the Penman say in Finnegan’s Wake, the artist writes “over every square inch of the only foolscap available, his own body.”
Of course, perhaps more apropos of this particular discussion, Joyce also said: “Men are governed by lines of intellect—women: by curves of emotion.”
DH87Quote Reply
Trying to right a “wrong,” to use your words—so often the reason given by filmmakers for nudity (95% of the time female) is that it is “necessary” from a plot or character-development point of view (as opposed to “gratuitous” nudity), as though male characters or plot points are immune from such “necessity.” A current example is promotional material for the David Fincher version of THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO, which features an entirely clothed Daniel Craig and a partially nude Rooney Mara in a pose requiring no distinction re: clothing. It is ridiculous to argue anything other than economic realities dictates the amount of female nudity on screen: the vast majority of paying film customers are young men under the age of 30 who need a reason to part with their money in a theatre and the most tried and true reason is the promise of female nudity. The same argument is made for the premium movie channels (HBO, Starz, Showtime) and has been made here and elsewhere, repeatedly. The result is an endless objectification of women, exacerbated by the complete imbalance between the sexes. (It has also been alleged that a segment of male movie goers are offended by male nudity and female movie goers are not offended by female nudity, but I couldn’t easily find the link.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2074378/Rooney-Mara-wows-The-Girl-With-The-Dragon-Tattoo-premiere-New-York.html
DH87Quote Reply
Yeah, Martin’s story has a fair portrayal of both genders.
R. Scott Bakker on the other hand, wasted no time using the middle ages as an exuse to be sexist. I remember despising Serwe.
Pod4KingQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
I would reason it’s reflective of when women and men are most at their leisure. For women, that’s the rim around the concave of childbearing/childrearing years. Conversely, for men twenties and early thirties is when they are still clinging to fantasy. ;)
It just seems those are the times of both genders lives that they can afford to be self indulgent and enjoy their own interests and pursuits.
villanovaQuote Reply
earthly wisdom (or is it worldly? or street wisdom?) In Spanish we have this saying: “tener calle”.
Like I said: Beyond the Wall seems to be the best place to live.
andreaQuote Reply
First off, thank you Ours Is the Fury for writing this essay. This is a really excellent discussion you’ve brought up, because it’s such a polarizing topic. I agree with you, in that more of the misogyny associated with this series can be found in the fandom itself, and not as much in the books.
Honestly, I discovered this series through the TV show. My involvement with adult fantasy and sci-fi was extremely limited at this point in my life, so I wouldn’t have heard of it were it not for HBO’s involvement. Many of the new, female fans of the show found the series in the exact same way. As I discovered the books and became enthusiastic about them, I started looking for communities on line where I could find more information, have intelligent discussions about both mediums, and have a little bit of fun with them.
There were two things I discovered about the fandom when I did this. One, (which is less relevant to the discussion at hand), was that there was a prominent negative attitude towards new fans. Basically, we weren’t good enough for their fandom because they read the books first.
The second, which feeds directly into this post, and which bothers me to this day, is that there seems to be a general consensus in the ASOIAF fandom that everyone on livejournal and Tumblr is a) between the ages of 12 and 17, b) female, and c) not really in this for the plot.
As far as I know, these assumptions have only got one thing right: the demographic of these platforms are decidedly FEMALE.
Having a discussion in some of these ASIOAF forums is pretty impossible for a woman at times. You go in there, and they are dropping c-bombs like it’s nobody’s business, and talking about the motivations of women and the supposed “justified consequences” of their actions, in ways that I could never be on board with. (Calling Cersei and dumb whore and Sansa stupid have already been mentioned. Now, I’ll be honest, both Sansa and Cersei have had their moments of being just these two descriptions. But they are infinitely more complicated characters than that, and it’s frustrated to see them as portrayed as only those things.)
There’s also a bit of bashing of other areas of fandom, specifically lj fans and Tumblr fans. There was a lot of these “silly little girls” and “only in it for the hot actors” comments. (Mind you, these were mixed it with discussions of how the female actresses on the show weren’t hot enough to play their roles, but whatever. Clearly, that’s not the same.)
Many of the ASOIAF fans on tumblr and livejournal are educated women in their 20s and 30s. All of these memes that everyone enjoys so much, including things like Stupid Ned and Hipster Game of Thrones originated on tumblr, and were created by these women. Yet, these are the same women who’s contributions are completely diminished by the older, more male dominated sects of the fandom as being too “superficial”. As it happens, a lot of these women are the same ones who have brought up the subject of misogyny within the ASOIAF community, and met with a similar dismissal.
Is there a healthy amount of sparkle-text, shipping, etc happening in these platforms? Sure. But the vast majority of it is done in jest, as a fun way to talk about the series and let off steam. It’s not being created to ram down anyone’s throats, or change the face of the fandom forever. It’s just a little bit of fun. Unfortunately, it seems to be the thing that discredits these platforms to “legitimate” fandom websites.
To me, it all comes across as one big lack of awareness of the attitude that is being put forth towards the newer members of the fandom. If, as a women, you are made to feel uncomfortable in the existing fan forums (and told basically to get over it), and then proceed to be made fun of for the community that you start in reaction to being shut out of the original one, how are you supposed to feel?
Is it a wonder that there is a constant, grinding tension about this topic?
KatieQuote Reply
Way to completely misrepresent a character.
First, Jon never wanted to have a relationship with Ygritte; that situation was practically forced on him, but he did come to love her later. And he did want to be with her, but he knew it was impossible. Also, he never forgot about her. He remembers her all the time and he specifically mentions his decision about being Lord of Winterfell would’ve been easy had Ygritte been offered instead of Val.
FacelessManQuote Reply
Yep, one way. Not a far stretch of the imagination by any means.
“Practically” is the key word. Does that make him less accountable? No.
But he was with her. And then he killed her. This is called character driven story. Maybe Jon overstepped his boundary since this story is not supposed to be character driven.
Right. Reminder: Jon is supposed to be a good guy. In real life, you don’t get to play woulda coulda.
Only the strongest people can live without regrets. Jon is supposed to be one of them.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
no edit button.. why?
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
The most democratic and seemingly at times the most advanced.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
This has been an interesting thread to catch up on. I’ve enjoyed it quite a bit, except for the couple of comments about Sansa’s stupidity being a misogynistic viewpoint. My immediate response to that would simply be a bunch of questions marks, punctuated with a question mark.
At the beginning of the series, Sansa IS dumb. Her childishness and naivety to the ways of the world – which are inexcusable given that Arya is both younger and more mature – directly contribute to the deaths of Lady and Ned. The misery that she and her loved ones experience is the consequence of her own actions. George could have switched her story with Bran’s, given that he is also prone to daydreaming of knights and princes and silly fantasy stories, and I would feel exactly the same about him. I would think to myself, “Way to go, Bran, you big dummy.”
Robert is dumb. Theon is dumb. Hodor is dumb, Gods love him. Ned is at the very least naive, and probably the source of Sansa’s naivety as well. There’s nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. And she does wisen up – her character arc is one of my personal favorites. But in the first book, Sansa undeniably acts like a dopey child, and it has nothing to do with what’s between her legs.
GreatjonQuote Reply
OK there’s been some discussion of this, but obliquely. I’m going to put it in spoiler tags for the book readers, but it really drives me nuts.
Why aren’t people of one mind with me that Littlefinger killed Ned Stark? I mean really. I think the show makes it even clearer than the books. Littlefinger wanted his war and there was a danger of everything settling down with Ned going to the wall. But when we hear Joffrey tell the crowd that Sansa and Cersei have asked for mercy for Eddard but he refuses, calling those (trying to remember exactly) the weak words of women, who didn’t hear Petyr Baelish speaking through him and underlining some kind of ideal of masculine independence and strength by making an example of Ned. And then (still in the show) when everyone rushes to Joffrey and tells him he’s lost his mind, that everyone is everyone except for Littlefinger. To my mind, I’d lay just about all of it at his door, and of course Joffrey’s too, that tool.
Basically, I’m waiting for Sansa to take her revenge on Littlefinger, seeing how she knows perfectly well how he killed Jon Arryn, his benefactor. The whole old guard of the revolution against Aerys was wiped out by Petyr Baelish when you think about it, and people have got to know.
SkipjackQuote Reply
Late to the party as usual…
I in no way think the books are misogynistic. Some characters might be. Some situations may be handled better than others, but GRRM goes out of his way to create a variety of women. Some adhere to traditional gender roles, some don’t. Some are successful. Some are not. All of them have flaws. All of them have strengths. They act like people. GRRM doesn’t want us to hate a character because she’s a woman, he wants us to make our judgements on their actions and reasoning. We have a variety women POVs and non of them are cookie cutters. Brutality happens to everyone in this world, not just women. Most importantly, when a woman is raped or abused we are supposed to feel for the character. We want Dany to rise up. We are shown her tears. Love her or hate her, when Robert slaps Cersei I feel bad for her.
The Arya/Sansa debate is always interesting because from the get go GRRM progra ms us to like Arya. She’s the scrappy underdog, favoured by Ned (viewed as the main character) and Jon (outcast/hero character). Sansa is her opposite. Polite, she cares what people think. She wants to be married, and be loved. Compared to aryas take charge attitude she seems weak, naive, a little vapid. Sansa makes a lot of mistakes and does things that anger readers, whether its for selfish reasons, naivete, or stupidity. It’s never just because she’s a woman. Over the books Sansa has changed a lot but our first imprssions are hard to change. To me Sansas chapter read like a girl who doesn’t really believe in herself and is quite a bit smarter than she gives herself credit for. We only see her interact with people who look down on her later in the book and don’t give us a sense of what she’s capable of because no one expects anything from her (even herself). She’s used by men and women not because she’s a woman but because she’s young. I suppose Grrm could be commenting that traditional gender roles don’t make you easy for the real world, but that’s a stretch. Fairytales end, the world is not a song and Sansa is strong enough to endure all of it so far.
Mmm I didn’t mean to rant that much. As for the HBO sex scenes, nudity hasn’t bothere
Phoenix_tornQuote Reply
Nudity hasn’t bothered me. They actually showed fullfrontal male nudity which is fairlu rare (and that sexism debate goes way deeper than just thrones). Would I have liked a more intimate/less shaving Renly/Loras scene? Yep, but I don’t think that was a gender sexuality issue. I just think it was a strange choice, to do something different, and iffy writing.
Phoenix_tornQuote Reply
I absolutely think Martin is sexist. There isn’t a shadow of doubt in my mind. He just is. True, there are a handful of women who are both feminine and powerful, but they are always described as weak or lesser than men. Their schemes never seem to come together (e.g., Arianne, Cersei, Asha). They all seem to desire sex unrealistically. Arya is very successful in her schemes — one of the main reasons the audience roots for her, but she’s almost totally androgynous. Very little marks her as female. And she’s a child. Brienne is another example of a powerful, well-liked female character who is essentially a man with a vagina. And worse, underneath all her tough muscle and grit, she’s a lovesick fool. First Renly, then the kingslayer. Awww, da biggg ugggwy knight really just needs some maaaan love to ease her heartache. Sarella falls into this category as well.
Also, none of the women are really cruel, demented villains — cruel like Ramsay Bolton, for example, except perhaps Lysa and maybe some minor characters like Harma. And Lysa is a pitiful character, obsessed with her son to the point of breastfeeding him at six years old! And to add insult to injury, underneath Lysa’s insanity is… (seriously, don’t read this if you haven’t read AFFC) a completely unbelievable puppy love for Littlefinger. If Lysa really killed Jon for Littlefinger, how did she act so believable when hating Tyrion? She doesn’t strike me as a character able to hide her true feelings well. When women are villains, they’re either headstrong, sex-crazed failures or just sad.
As for the sand snakes… Lady Nym and Tyene may be deadly, but they’re also beautiful eye candy. Femme fatales — how else could prurient male audiences watch/read about them? Obara isn’t beautiful, and she’s deadly… which is why Martin portrays her as overconfident and haughty.
Melisandre, Melisandre. Beautiful, powerful, mysterious. The great enigma. And completely asexual. Oh, and totally hated and judged and considered to have bewitched Stannis by one of the audience’s favorite characters…. it’s Davos!
Since we’re on the topic of gender, why not add the portrayal of sexuality? I appreciate the way B&W brought Loras/Renly into the mainframe, into canon and out of mere speculation. The books never did that. They portrayed Renly as flamboyant, image-obsessed, and silver to Robert’s steel and Stannis’ iron — as, well, stereotypically gay, just altered for the time period. Loras is more nuanced; he’s a manly knight, exceptionally skilled at jousting, or charging at men with a great big penis. I mean, lance.
Now, the show hasn’t gotten beyond the Renly-Loras relationship, but readers of the book series know that eventually Daenerys and Cersei have lesbian affairs — if you can call them that. I would argue that Martin’s sexism is never more apparent than in the lesbian scenes. Let me reduce them both into two lines. 1) Daenerys: I miss Drogo, so I’ll sleep with this wet, horny lady in waiting who will do anything to please me. Hmm, on second thought I don’t like being a lesbian; I’ll be straight from now on. 2) Cersei: I totally want to be a man because men are better; in fact, I wonder what it felt like to Robert when he raped me, so I’ll sleep with this wet, horny lady in waiting who will do anything to please me. Hmm, on second thought I don’t like being a lesbian; I’ll be straight from now on.
BemmaQuote Reply
WHERE IS TRAILER OF SEASON2 ???????????
CIBQuote Reply
There are four different things to discuss:
1) Fandom of the books
2) Fandom of the show
These are different but overlapping things and I wholeheartedly concur with Katie:
3) the books
4) the show
These have been covered above, but I would like to agree with Bemma:
The show and books are heteronormative regarding sex, gender, and sexuality (yes, they are three different things). They are problematic in different ways. In the books there is no acceptable reason for randomly throwing in same-sex FEMALE scenes between heterosexual women, especially not when a homosexual couple are never even acknowledged. In the show there is no acceptable reason for random additional characters to have a noisy, detailed, lesbian sex scene while a lead character is telling his life story, especially not when a loving homosexual couple get cut off after a couple of seconds and a hint.
dimensionallytQuote Reply
A lot of discussion about female characters and sexism has focused on characters and their motivations. I’m more of a story guy. I’d like to address the character of Sansa from a story perspective.
The purpose of ASOIAF, as I see it, is to make a better fantasy by using gritty realism to destroy stupid, outdated fantasy tropes.
The main point of Sansa’s arc in AGoT is to deconstruct the trope of the princess and prince charming living happily ever after. (Is your rich, handsome prince more likely to be a gentleman or a selfish twat?)
In ACoK, Sansa’s arc deconstructs the trope of the captive princess waiting for her knight in shining armor. (Would any knight be stupid enough to charge in and try to save you from the wicked queen?)
Sexism plays a major part in her story, but mostly just to illustrate how preposterous these tropes are. (Oh, and by the way, you’re a woman in a heavily patriarchal society. Have fun!)
The character Sansa needed to be naive for her story to work as a critique of the Disney princess fairytale. GRRM went a step further and made Sansa spoiled and shallow in order to give the reader a little schadenfreude when her childish illusions crumble. This is not about misogyny, just good storytelling.
Therefore, I tend to stay out of these nature/nurture debate about characters, their actions, and the consequences of such. The fact that there are so many such discussions is clearly a testament to how well GRRM writes his characters, though.
I also think comeuppance is an important part of storytelling. While I don’t condone fans posting “character X deserved atrocity Y,” this is to an extent the kind of emotional reaction a storyteller goes for.
fake-o name-oQuote Reply
When women learn to work together even if they don’t like each other, they’re standing among society will increase. Currently it is not the case, if a woman does not like a coworker they complain, gossip, and spread dissension and angst towards their intended target. All this misdirected effort hindering the quality of work. Until by some miracle women suddenly become dramatically less emotionally driven, employers will still be wary of hiring anyone who will cause drama in their work environment.
SSJWugWugQuote Reply
Wow, 166 comments already… I think I’m a little late to the discussion, and really don’t have time to read through them all (so sorry if my points have already been made 100 times already).
My general view is that Westeros, as a feudal patriarchal society, is definitely a sexist environment, and many of the characters express sexist views. However, I would say that the books as a whole (and GRRM) are NOT sexist: they merely present a sexist world for the characters to inhabit.
fake-o name-o hit the nail on the head in the post above. One of the of the things that aSoIaF is, is a deconstruction of the standard fantasy tropes, with an application of a dose of historical realism and understanding of character motivation to stock situations like the captured princess, the child avenging the father and so on.
So when Brienne finds herself teased and ridiculed for being female in a male world, this isn’t something she can just brush off and overcome and then everyone recognises her value and all is right with the world. THAT would be sexist because it trivialises what has been established as a major institutional problem. She struggles, works hard, has crises, and DOESN’T overcome it, but stays true to herself and in time some individuals (Cat, Jaime) accept her for who she is.
Sansa is actually one of my favourite characters, because her story is so universally tragic. As children we all have a conception of the adult world that is unreal and fantastical. Every child dreams of being a knight or a princess (or equivalent), and as we grow up reality bites in and we accept that we will never be astronauts, that life is full of unfairness, and that we need to work hard to achieve our goals. Sansa’s reality is so awful and barbaric that she clings onto these dreams far longer than is healthy, and bit by bit they are completely destroyed. It’s my view that she’s pretty much graduated from the School of Hard Knocks now, and will be one of the stronger characters in the later books.
As for the fandom….unfortunately there are some large sexist elements. And I think the mistakes that they make are A) applying the sexists tropes of much of mainstream fantasy to the characters in aSoIaF and so completely misreading motivation, B) reading and repeating the words the characters say but not grasping the social context behind them and C) breathing.
EvilPicnicQuote Reply
Oh please. There are plenty of strong females in bothe book and show, and like the men, they are not all cookie-cutter copies of one another. That is the most anyone could ask for outside a “women’s studies” classroom.
Kai Alexis PriceQuote Reply
Bemma,
So do you actually like the series and the books? Or did you just hear about the discussion and decided to post in this site.
I’m not trying to be difficult I am merely curious.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Josh Atreides,
I do. There’s a lot worse out there. And as many have said, the story itself needn’t be politically correct. It’s interesting, not safe. I just wanted to add a voice of dissent heretofore absent.
BemmaQuote Reply
SSJWugWug,
Yeah, and women don’t want to be hired by sexist employers. So it all works out!
BemmaQuote Reply
I personally don’t think Martin is that sexist. I think a large part of the fandom is sexist.
JonhoQuote Reply
Jonho,
Amen. I actually think many of Martin’s more interesting characters are women, because thy are given a crappy situation and work within the confines of them to become real power players.
Like I said in my above post, it’s the fans that are the problem. Look at some of the comments to this essay! Is it really so much to ask to be able to talk about the crappy attitudes of this fandom without being told that this isn’t a “women’s studies” class?
KatieQuote Reply
Bemma,
Well said. I disagree with you overall, but you voiced your opinion in a civil fashion and I appreciate that. Kudos.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
DB,
I suggest you calm down a bit, and reread what what Robb or Catelyn or Littlefinger have to say about Eddard’s death and exchange of hostages.
Let me put it this way for you. If Sansa would not be in King’s Landing Eddard might died. But he would never admit to any crimes or things he did not ever commit. Ergo, if anything he would still be rotting in dungeons of Red Keep until they arranged the exchange of hostages, Jaime for Eddard. He was executed because he publicly admitted his “crimes”. He admited those crimes because Sansa’s life was in question.
I don’t understand from where did this come from about his “manly manliness”. If anything Eddard always wanted to be just and honest person, with his honor beeing one of more important things to him.
Yes, Joffrey said the command, Cersei plotted but if Sansa was not so naive and trusted everyone when her father tells her not to trust anyone and she still trusts the queen who ordered the death of her wolf. I call it stupid. Sorry. Nobody in their sane mind would trust a person who took something dear from them ever again.
I suggest you calm down before giving advice to anyone else.
——————————————————————————————————–
Sansa did nothing, she was passive player all along. She did not even try to do anything. After Eddard was executed she was just crying and refusing to eat in hopes people would forget about her.
I like Arya becase she is active participant. She does not wait for others to decide what she will do, she decides for herself. Even if wrong decisions, she is able to make her own decisions, she does not let anyone manipulate with her or order her around if she thinks it is not for her own benefit.
Did you forget what item did Arya decide to keep? That one items is her everything. And represents her family to her. And yes, I read ADWD. Have you considered it why Arya is doing what she is doing? Probably not just for fun.
Yep, Jon did not leave because others stopped him, and then he never got chance to repeat it. But did you read ADWD, his actions should speak volumes to you.
I am not about to praise Sansa for getting out of control of 1 manipulator into claws of another. She did not fight back becase she was afraid to get beaten again. Not because she was smart, but becase she was afraid.
Dontos’ plan was hatched by LF and Sansa needed a lot of persuasion to follow the plan.
And now where is our beloved Sansa? In hand of LF. Just one more piece in the game under his control. If you call Littlefinger and Cersei right people to trust I seriously doubt about your judgment.
AstalnarQuote Reply
Damn late to this party and this is right up my alley! I suck!
Anyways,I’ll throw my two cents in whether any want to hear it or not! LOL.
As a woman,nothing about the books or series has offended me at all. maybe something is seriously wrong with me. My guy friend who got me into the books was talking abou this the other day,most exspecially the sex scenes between Dany and Drogo and the one where Irri is “teaching” Dany. He kind of has a problem with the books and the fact that Dany is barely a teenager being forced to have sex. I of course see the otrher side of the coin…that was nothing new for those “times”. as soon as a girl had her first period she was off and married. And Khal Drogo was her husband. But the book was diffrent from the series…you see and feel her fear and you know she hates it. However, he is not cruel to her.There on the beach he is even kind of “gentle”! Is that crazy of me to see it like that? I told my friend that I even thought it was a little erotic. I can see where women would have major issues,but me personally no,I don’t.
None of the sexuality,nudity,content bothered me…the incest thing,whatever…its there it happened,what can you do? Is it wrong,yes it is….but in some places in some eras it wasn’t a big thing. I don’t dwell on it.
The Renley/Loras thing whatever again…boring,move on is how I felt about that.
The Roz…..well anything she did….she is a whore what else can she do. Did I bitch about the Littlefinger two girls going at it thing….it was a little loud. But I still managed to follow his dialouge…how many men can say that? LOL!
The women are strong and in their own ways powerful! I haven’t read a series in so long where the women are so strong! I love it! Even the girls…Arya…she is just so kick ass and brave. I WANT to be Arya! Even Sansa in her own way is strong.I give the girl kuddos and she gets better and better!
As a women would I like to see the tables turned? HELL yes! I want more male nudity! I want to see Kit Harington nude! LOL.
I just love the show and the books and the story that I refuse to let myself “read” into any of it. If it offends people,I tell them not to watch or read. Life is way to short not to find some enjoyment and to take everything so damn seriously!
Anyways, on to season 2 and some more naked men!
HildaQuote Reply
Oh shit,my spelling sucks! Sorry,just getting off twelve hours of work. AND I realize what a whore I sound like reading so many of your posts! I am a shallow shrew!
HildaQuote Reply
You’re not the only one Hilda. I’m pretty sure all of my tween years of reading V.C. Andrews books completely desensitized me to incest before I got to this series :)
My problem with this argument is the idea that the text is sexist because the feminine character’s schemes never come together. It isn’t just feminine character’s schemes that don’t come together. Everyone fails all the time, not just women, not just feminine women, everyone. Calling Brienne a “man with a vagina” irks me too. Just because she’s tough and wants to fight, you see her as a man? She want’s to be a soldier and the only way to get a shred of respect (and we see a very small shred of respect) is to act like a man. Calling her weak and foolish because she has feelings for men is a little sexist own. Yes she follows Renly and Jaime but she also follows Catelyn in the same way. Brienne isn’t nearly as hard/strong as she let’s on.
Should we be complaining that Jaime is personified as an arrogant playboy or that the Gregor is a sexist character because he shows that testosterone and masculinity are brutish and mean? Of course not. So why do we go to ever female character, take her out of the larger picture an analyse her without context?
Bemma-I completely respect your argument and at time can see a little of it (mostly in the straight/lesbian scenes), but we clearly have a differing opinions. That’s why I like this board. We can have civil discussions with widely different views without resulting in name calling (for the most part…)
Phoenix_tornQuote Reply
I think this is sexist against men. Also, I was under the impression that this was a site dedicated to bringing the most up-to-date news about the TV show to the attention of fans. Apparently I was wrong. I will never be coming to this site again because I worry that whenever I want to find out some cool new intel on the show, I am going to be subjected to things like this. I am now scarred for life with
Fran DresherQuote Reply
No future deaths, I`ll grant you. But if you care to read some of the comments again, I think you will notice a few notable plot points are mentioned during some comments , in the course of disscussing character development. Who marries who, who ditches who, who is vying for power etc. Granted ,most folks followed correct protocall, and either gave a warning in advance or correctly tagged their comments ( although the tags don`t work for certain mobile users apparantly) but if someone else quotes the tagged comment , half the time, the tags vanish.
Now , from my point of view ,being up to date with the books, I think we should be able to talk about any ASOIAF subject on this site ( except possibly the biggies , RW and the like ), as long as spoiler tags are used correctly.
Any one who does not want to get spoiled should stay out of the comments thread untill they have read all the books. Simple.
I am not criticising your excellent post Fury, or any of the comments . I also think that the wic.net policy regarding spoilers is quite sufficient (if the mobile problem is sorted ).
From now on if someone gets on their high horse and complains about being spoiled by a comment , I will just slowly shake my head , and ignore them. They took a gamble by clicking on comments, and lost .
Two FeathersQuote Reply
Astalnar,
You are not a smart person. You have below average writing skills and it’s obvious you fail often. You probaly were so happy when this thread was created so you could chime in with your two cents because, unfortunatley, the internet allows every amateur psychologist to do so. You said “ergo.” Wow, I wish we were in Westeros and you deserted the Night’s Watch, because your head should be rolling on the floor.
Fran DresherQuote Reply
Obvious Troll is Obvious. It is known.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
I wonder what it is that would attract such types to medieval fantasy? It’s unwarranted. I mean, is there something about the books that would attract these alleged sexist people [I'm assuming males between the age of 12 and 24]? I know that my favorite forums about Curb Your Enthusiasm is completely overrun by perverts, but that at least makes sense if you think about it. Sexism about Westeros… it boggles the mind.
I have never heard about or care for tumbler people. I come to this site about a TV show and not relive my freshman year in college. Well now that I am aware of them, I do care. Something must be done.
If this is going to be a weekly support group to help some insular bloggers group deal with “idiot opinions on the internet” then next time I’d suggest some Tori Amos music in the background and scented candles to lighten the atmosphere. And I do think it should be weekly, like the GoT laughs. I think getting all this stuff out in the universe is really going to help start the healing process for the entire westeros fanbase.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Wow – I was really excited to see this article and I have been following the thread for two days now and I cannot believe how this discussion has really disintegrated into juvenile name calling and insults! Grow up, all of you who have been posting this way, exchange e-mails if you want to keep fighting amongst yourselves and let the rest of us who are interested in hearing what other fans of the book and TV series feel about this topic participate in peace.
KQuote Reply
To be fair, the overwhelming majority of the posts have been very even-handed and intelligent. There are just a few trolls floating around and they are easily ignored.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
K,
I concur. I made a knee-jerk reaction to an earlier post. Sometimes we cling to strongly to our opinions and beliefs be they spiritual or secular that any thought that we deem threatening to them causes our hackles to go up. I just don’t understand why the discussion cannot be civil nor why people outwardly object to a discussion like this. It’s kind of like people not wanting gay marriage. Why do you care? It’s not your family, it’s not your choice, why not let them be happy?
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
First I had to see her on television, now i have to deal with Fran Dresher on this site? Oi!!!!
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
I’n not trying to troll, these are my opinions, and normally I contribute to this site in a more positive manner. You just don’t like what I had to say so you immediatley label me a troll and treat me as if I’m one of Craster’s sons. Although I will admit what I said to Two Feathers was complete trolling. My bad TF.
Fran DresherQuote Reply
Fran Dresher,
Very humble of you. I retract my previous post. But I think you were pretty harsh with Astalnar as well. Making fun of his spelling is pretty below the belt. I understand the emotion that rides you in the heat of a reaction post. One is liable to say anything.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
Yeah right. Let’s talk about fairness. This topic is an emotionally charged political discussion that is a sure way to incite strong opinions and flames. There is no way this post was going to end up as quiet and contemplative. And anyone who has used the internet will know that by ‘intelligent’ you mean those sharing your opinion and by a few ‘trolls’ you mean those people who completely disagree with this post. But it’s not your fault, as you are in the center of an emotionally charged discussion of which you are the emotionally charged owner. You never had a chance to be fair.
Epic pinaforesQuote Reply
And also, it points an accusing finger at male fans of SoIaF.
I’m actually surprised to see that it has not degenerated at all; if anything this is an amazing turn out.
Epic pinaforesQuote Reply
Maybe a world full of Eunuchs is the only solution…..or better yet a world full of the Unsullied and Shavepates
Fran DresherQuote Reply
Fran Dresher,
I think that bits about Astalnarand and Two Feathers were pointless. I disagree with Astalnarand’s post and I came here to reply to it, but then I saw your comment.. wow. I don’t know which language you or Astalnarand speak, but I really hate when people on the internet criticize somebody’s grammar or spelling just because they feel like doing it. Many people on the internet aren’t native english speakers, but at least they (we) bother trying to learn a second language.
And, BTW, maybe you don’t know, but “ergo” is lating, and means “thus” which is exactly the way Astalnarand used it.
I know my paragraph above is a little harsh and doesn’t add to the discussion, but I can’t help it. We all are a berseck button. Grammar nazis are mine.
Anyway, I think Two Feathers is right, there are spoilers here. A lot of people assume that everybody here has read the book, and almost all of us are, but there are some big revelations in the comments.
Nights King,
I really like this post :)
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Josh Atreides,
Interestingly enaugh it was not spelling that hurt. Hell, english is not my primary language. The fact that someone is wishing me death, that was a whole new deal for me.
AstalnarQuote Reply
First of all, I never said anything about his spelling or grammar being bad, I just found it funny how he used the word ergo. So stop putting words in my mouth. Also, I obviously don’t wish you death seeing as how I don’t even know you, I was only exxagerating my opposition to the points you were trying to make.
Fran DresherQuote Reply
Fran Dresher,
Oh good, I’m glad the discussion has disintegrated into “that’s not what I said, poop face.” Really helps the intellectual debate along.
KatieQuote Reply
It is, when what actually happened goes against it.
That wasn’t my point. You said he used her, which isn’t exactly true. He never wanted it but their relationship was real, and the only thing he got out of it was his and love.
First, he didn’t exactly kill her. Also, this is wrong. It is a character driven story as much or more as it is pure plot driven. I’m not sure where you got that idea.
I don’t know where you get that Jon is supposed to be some kind of superman in the story but that’s way off the mark. All of GRRM’s characters are some shades of grey, some more grey than others. They’re people with real motivations, regrets, fears and they’re put in situations where the outcome is usually less than ideal.
FacelessManQuote Reply
well, this is what most of the fandom think. Which is why Jon one of the most hated AND the most love characters.
Fran Dresher,
Honey, you DID make fun of another poster for a word you didn’t like and if you “exagerate your reactions” you will make people mad. You can either admit you were slighly offensive or keep saying we’re making things up, but if you keep doing that people will start thinking you’re stupid, or a troll. Sometimes both.
Like that comment. I’m absolutely fine with that word, you could insult me all the time and I wouldn’t care, but I know some people really don’t like to hear that. So you just said something very bad with no reason, and I call this trolling. Or being stupid. Probably both.
PS: If you want to be a troll, at least be a funny troll. Like Epic.
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
OJ,
Seconded. In Western culture, femininity is not valued. Here’s a good example. Depictions of male cross-dressing (men assuming femininity) are overwhelmingly presented as comedy, something to laugh at – think Big Momma’s House, Some Like It Hot, Mrs. Doubtfire, The Birdcage, Juwanna Mann,White Chicks, etc – or as villainous and criminal – Silence of the Lambs, Psycho, Party Monster, Dressed To Kill, and Homicidal are good examples. On the other hand, women dressing as men and assuming masculinity are typically treated seriously (usually they cross dress for either survival/glory) – Mulan, Yentl, Osama, The Ballad of Little Jo, Baran, the King of Masks, etc.
The same dynamic plays out in ASOIAF: masculinity is glorified, femininity denigrated.
Sansa represents the feminine. She likes to stitch, she wants to marry a chivalrous knight/lord, she names her direwolf “Lady.” Sansa’s femininity leads to the downfall of House Stark: her desire to adopt the fashions and mannerisms of the Court and her desire to marry and have children with Joffrey leads to her spilling the beans to Cersei. Her desire to be a woman and act accordingly has extremely negative consequences.
Arya, on the other hand, represents the woman abandoning femininity and embracing masculinity, and thus she becomes our hero, not Sansa. She hates needlework and dresses. She has no desire to marry or have children. She prefers her brothers to her sister. She would rather be a sword fighter than a lady. Accordingly, her wolf is named “Nymeria,” after a warrior queen. Arya’s adoption of masculinity (seen in her training with Syrio, who calls her “boy”) allows her to elude Lannister swords and escape from King’s Landing, while Sansa’s femininity directly leads to her captivity. Once out of the city, Yoren emphasizes that her survival depends on her total abandonment of female identity.
I’m not sure if I even need to discuss Cersei. She’s written as the villain/antagonist of the first three books and as an incompetent weakling in the fourth and fifth. Like Sansa, her actions set her house on the path to ruin.
Lady Stark is also problematic because she has no function outside of her role as mother. She supports her husband and protects her children. Period. Every action she takes, every political move, every conversation, has to do with her relationship to her husband and children. On the other hand, Lord Stark has motivations outside of his family life. He leaves Winterfell to support his king. He investigates the Hand’s death because he loved the man. He despises Jamie Lannister because they have a sticky past. While he certainly considers his children when making his decisions, unlike Catelyn he has an identity outside of his relationship to them.
Don’t get me wrong. GRRM does a good job of problematizing classical fantasy notions of chivalry, heroism, and masculinity. Brienne and Daenerys both challenge traditional depictions of women in American fantasy. His female characters have important roles in both the novels and television series. However, that doesn’t mean that he escapes the privileging of masculinity and the denigration of femininity that pervades our society. I challenge those who would write this off as his “realistic” portrayal of medieval life. He is the author of his books. He has creative control. He is limited by only his imagination. If he wants his books to upend tropes like the noble knight or the glorious battle, he can. If he wants to add dragons, direwolves, mammoths, giants, warlocks, bloodmages, and magic swords to his “realistic” vision of medieval Europe, he can. If he wanted to present a world where femininity is just as valued as masculinity, he would.
I love the books and the television series. But I don’t kid myself: if I want to read something with an interesting take on gender, I’m not reaching for ASOIAF. :P
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Foul language will not be tolerated. Keep it civil.
Hear Me RoarQuote Reply
Fran Dresher,
Who the hell do you think you’re talking to? No one is telling you not to express your opinion, but I sure as hell am going to use that same right to freedom of speech to call you on being a total asshole.
What ever happened to you never coming here again? Wasn’t that something you threatened a while back? Or was that you just “exaggerating” again? You seem quick to defend your own opinions, but when someone disagrees with you all you can manage to do is throw some classless name-calling around. (By the way, nice job in calling me a cunt in a discussion about misogyny. Good work.)
What I’m waiting for is to read your thoughts on the topic at hand, instead of wasting my time reading your bile. I’m here to actually talk about this essay. What are you here for?
KatieQuote Reply
I am not a huge Sansa fan but I have to say that some people on this thread are giving her far too much power as far as GoT is concerned. I think that much of the sad events that transpire for her family had their origins in a time before she was even born – so much of the entire story goes back to the Brandon Stark/LF duel, Catelyn’s subsequent marriage to Ned and Ned’s lifelong relationship with Robert and Jon Arryn. To blame Sansa for all that befalls House Stark seems a stretch. Do her choices throughout the first book (and beyond) drive me a bit crazy? Absolutely! After reading all the books do I think she is responsible for what has transpired? She has played her role in the Game as much as anyone else, no more and it remains to be seen how much less.
KQuote Reply
Ours Is The Fury distinguishes between the sexism of the text and the sexism of the fans. He exonerates the writer but blames the fans.
I disagree.
For example: two people watch a trashy reality TV show featuring a group of female roommates getting drunk and breaking stuff. During the commercial break, the two laugh, calling them skanks and whores. Who is sexist? The viewers who call them skanks? Or the producers, who decide they’re going to produce a show where women mostly get drunk and break stuff?
GRRM enables fandom misogyny by giving us an uncritical vision of a misogynist world. Saying he writes these gender roles in order to criticize them is like saying Oxygen’s “Bad Girls Club” or vh1′s “Rock of Love” are showing slut-stereotypes in order to challenge them.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
This is kinda extreme. What do you mean by “feminility”? All you have to do is turn on the TV and you’ll see a lot of extemely femine women. I think that’s the wrong word. If I had to say something, I’d say the problem is our spociety being “male chauvinist”. I’ve no idea if that’s the proper word, I used google translate D: but I think you’ll get what I mean. I don’t think men are privileged, and neither I think our society is misogynist. I just think there’s an intrinsic belief that men are better than women at doing some stuff. It’s a subtle thing, but it’s there
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Ours Is The Fury is a woman.
And I don’t understand how people can look at characters like Danerys and Catelyn and yes, even Cersei, and say that they are vehicles for misogynistic thinking. These are all intelligent women trying to wield power in a male-dominated world. They each have flaws which get in their way, but so do the male characters. (Ned, anyone?) Their lives are dictated by their limitations, as are all of our lives. It is what they do despite them that makes them great characters.
For me, the real misogyny rolls in during some of the fan discussion. I’ve already expounded on this, so I’m not going to beat a dead horse here.
I really don’t agree with comparing ASOIAF with these reality shows, though. Show me where any of those stereotyped individuals are trying to buck or better their circumstances.
KatieQuote Reply
I don’t think it’s sexist at all. They are insulting the two drunk girl, but it doesn’t imply they are sexist. I know there’s no male equivalent of the words whore, slut or -ladies and gentlemen, the word of the day! – cunt. But this doesn’t have to mean that anybody using those words is sexist.
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies
I think you make some very good points, but could you not read it as Arya and Dany being the feminist heroes because of their eschewing of traditional (male enforced) gender roles? And that Sansa and Ned are punished for conforming to their gender-role too rigidly?
But I am being facetious: there is no overall position on feminism in aSoIaF because aSoIaF is not interested in sexism, or racism, or -isms in general beyond Martin’s desire to make life really suck for his characters. And that’s all there is to it, I think.
We can bring up Cersei being cruel, and Dany’s rape, and Sansa’s girlishness as evidence of GRRM being sexist, but I think it’s also important to note the frequency of male idiocy, humiliation and rape also. Varys is very much affected by his genital mutilation as a child, many of the male torture scenes feature sexual humiliation of the worst kind, and then there is the whole existence of the Unsullied!
My point being: GRRM is cruel to everyone, which is a kind of equality.
EvilPicnicQuote Reply
this is great. Kudos
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
EvilPicnic,
Well said.
KatieQuote Reply
Katie,
SPOILERS
Cersei’s primary instrument of maintaining power is her vagina and her motherhood. She sleeps with any man she deems useful. She only manipulates effectively when she uses her body or her progeny (which come from her body). Most television shows follow this same formula: a woman’s strongest asset is her body/sexual organs/womb. Show me a male character in ASOIAF who fits that bill and you’ll have me convinced I’m wrong.
Daenerys is similar. Her rise to power begins with her marriage and her assumption of wife-status. Yes she gains independence, but only after she is able to “conquer” Drogo in the bedroom. Then she gets pregnant and is the Mother to the Stallion Who Will Mount The World. Then she gives birth to dragons and becomes Mother of Dragons. Then she becomes the figurative Mother of Slaves. Then she needs to find a male consort. Never at any time is she accompanied by a strong, independent adult female. She is surrounded by men; her only female advisor is a prepubescent cupbearer.
Why can’t a woman wield power without abandoning femininity, ie Brienne or Arya? Why can’t a woman achieve power without using her vagina and womb?
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Katie,
Thank you Katie, I shouldn’t have assumed the gender of Ours Is The Fury. My apologies.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
I read it as otherwise because their abandonment of traditional gender roles ends up upholding the value of those same traditional gender roles. You’re right: they’re male enforced behaviors. But isn’t the preference of masculinity over femininity also enforced by males? Isn’t it a sticky situation that these female characters seem to be caught in the middle: damned if they do, damned if they don’t?
And I think it’s a good thing to read into this kind of stuff. People criticize the genre, in part, because it can seem too shallow or undemanding. I’m glad this conversation is being had, because it proves those critics wrong: obviously everyone (or a lot) of commenters on this thread have thought about it. :)
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Any ways a woman can do that in westeros? Do you think Asha, the mormont girls and Arianne don’t have power? (Well, Arianne likes sex, and she did “use her vagina to get something” but she’s not cersei2 and looks like she’s getting better)
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
How is it uncritical? As just one example: Asha (…*ahem*…’Yara’) is depicted as the most intelligent and probably the best potential leader of all the Greyjoys. That the guys muscle her out is a damning critique of the misogynist world of Westeros.
As for your ‘for example’, here’s one of mine (and for the record I get drunk and break stuff on a regular basis. Being called a ‘skank’ or a ‘whore’ for doing so would be a bit weird. ‘Clumsy’ would be more accurate):
A fantasy where a princess does princessy things and a knight does knightly things and everyone lives happily ever after. Or a fantasy where the princess wants to be a knight, and the knight wants to be a princess. Which is potentially more sexist?
EvilPicnicQuote Reply
I believe that Evil Picnic is absolutely correct – GRRM has created a world that is rough for everyone – the women in his world have a more uphill battle than the men for sure but it is hardly easy for anyone to survive the Game of Thrones. His is not a clear cut world where good intentions are rewarded and virtues like loyalty, honesty and integrity enable your survival. It is a tricky thing for a writer to balance – I personally do not think that GRRM intends to “punish” his characters, in fact I think he is rather fond of them, the good and the evil. So, I think it is a tad unfair to label him or the books as misogynistic, especially since the series is not finished yet and we don’t know where he intends to leave the survivors when it all comes to an end.
KQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
That’s the unfortunate thing, isn’t it? If you’re going to parallel Westeros with anything in our world, you’d have to do so with England in the middle ages. In this time period, most women came into power through their marriages and social standing. That’s culturally the only options they had available to them.
The one woman who tried to wield power without working within the expectations of her society was Asha Greyjoy. That worked out horribly. I’m glad that GRRM actually showed this play out at the Moot, actually, because it illustrates how frustratingly futile doing so is in Westeros. She was absolutely right in her speech, and would have been the best ruler for her people. But these thick-headed warriors were never, EVER, going to elect a woman to rule. This is the culture she is living in. To ignore the realities of that got her nowhere.
So, if working against the grain will get you zip in Westeros, what options do any of the other female characters have?
You’re absolutely right in saying that Daenerys didn’t get a taste of independence until she was married to Drogo. She was able to hold on to her power without a male consort for quite a long time, though. And actually, it was the people who ultimately tried to betray her that pushed her into marriage in the first place. They thought they were dealing with a silly young girl with too many big ideas. What they got were dragons.
Now, Cersei is a special kind of crazy. All through the first book, I thought she was nuts, but I respected her. I honestly can’t say I’m thrilled with how much she relies on her sexuality to get what she wants, if only because I thought she was smart enough not to have to do that. Look at what she had for a parent, though? Look at how extreme a reaction Tywin had to whores in general, especially because of his father. Not to mention, his dismissal of Cersei, who wanted to be like him more than anyone. I’m not saying this is why Cersei grew up to act as she did, but isn’t it interesting that she set out to gain power by selling herself as much as the women that Tywin despised? It’s like, pissing him off, twice.
Brienne and Arya are definitely examples of wielding power without being feminine. The difference is, they aren’t necessarily trying to wield power over the men in their society. They’re just trying to be true to themselves, and defend their ideals.
To hold real power, even today, you have to manipulate the system to work for you. Bucking the system gets people to wake up, but it’s breaking down the machine from within that causes the most lasting effects.
It’s the crap reality of that world, as well as this one.
KatieQuote Reply
I’ll go with the knight who wants to be a princess. We can’t have that!!!!11111
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
Wait, are we talking about Sam? I LOVE Sam! :p
Honestly, talk about gender-bending roles in reverse. All the poor guy wants to do is read and play music and study art, but no no. Can’t allow that! He must FIGHT, because he is heap big MANLY MAN. Ugh, shut UP, Westerosi culture. Let the dude study, for crissakes.
(By the way, how funny is it that the one intellectual in the bunch is called too lady-like? We hold no power, but we’re clearly the smart ones. Okay then,lol.)
KatieQuote Reply
Wow, that sounds a lot like something my english teacher says all the time. *___*
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
I’m afraid it’s not about ‘why’, it’s about ‘how’. In a world where it’s pretty much survival of the fittest, it’s very hard for anyone who doesn’t measure to that rule. It’s not only many women who are prejudiced against, as you already know, I don’t need to mention Tyrion, Jon and I’m sure that thread already covered all this. Then you have Samwell who is neither a dwarf nor a bastard, yet he’s fat and cowardly (when it comes to fight at least) and that’s it his family status his denied from him.
Women do achieve power through wits though, regardless of what they have to do to get there, and yes it often means recognising the rules, having the intelligence to adapt to that world. And GRRM does a great job of depicting that, he keeps the story immersive by making it believable. I might be a minority but I’m a Sansa fan, she was naive at first because no one told her the realitiy of the world, but she wakes up quickly, adapts and now she’s the first one to even guess Littlefinger’s mind .
Queen of Thorns comes to mind to answer the ‘how’ question: wits and money.
The other major quality you need to survive being strength, well ‘why’ is simply irrelevant in this world as most wouldn’t care. At the end of the day, how else would you see it work? You can’t depict a realistic middle-age settings without some prejudice and misoginy. It’s not like you’ll have characters going to see their attorney or you’d see someone teaching political correctness to Gregor.
In fact there is an answer to ‘why’: Because she’d probably end up dead.
JedaQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
Heh. See you in class! ;)
No, just kidding. Although, he/she does sound EXTREMELY intelligent. :p
KatieQuote Reply
Less so in the UK but, in the US, this four letter word remains deeply offensive in polite discourse, equally offensive as the “n word.” It’s no surprise that the “n word” is considered too incendiary to spell out (and rightly so) but the “c word” is tolerated or even condoned. Tolerance of the c-word is sexist, just as tolerance of the n-word is racist. In impolite or hate speech, of course, anything goes.
Perhaps we should move on, since the offending post has apparently been deleted but not the discussion of its content.
DH87Quote Reply
houndlover,
Lordlings and Ladies,
Lordlings and Ladies,
THIS!
I’m wading into this one a little late in the game, but I truly appreciate the existence of this thread. It is something that has bothered me while I read the series. First of all, I will say that I enjoy the series, but I do have issues with the text–and the show. No work is perfect.
I enjoyed your first post immensely, as it sums up a lot of what I have been thinking/feeling. The women in the series are lauded as feminist icons only when they assume a masculine role.
My real problem with the series, and this is of the books as the show itself glosses over–or cannot afford time for–a lot of this, is that GRRM lays it on thick with the sexual violence against women. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be mentioned, and I understand his world is based on the patriarchal society of medieval Europe, and that rape is a tool of war. What I don’t understand is why GRRM feels it necessary to depict violence in ways that do not advance the plot, and that are graphically described above and beyond any ‘historical background’ or ‘setting of the scene.’ Why must Lollys be raped by 50 men? Why not five? Or one?
Yes, GRRM writes some great female characters, and some of them step outside the stereotype of femininity and kick ass! Hurrah! But he also drops sexualized violence–against men and women– in the background, and takes it to the extreme, with little reaction or discussion. That’s my main problem.
This is rambling, I know. Forgive me, I have a head cold and poor argument construction skills. Also, a broken keyboard. But I am damned excited that this discussion is taking place, mostly civilly. And you can bet that had the series been more female oriented and more ideally feminist, it would never have been made into a TV show, and we would not be discussing it with such a global audience.
ALRQuote Reply
Emmanuel,
Hear hear!
D_RichardQuote Reply
Well, it’s a matter of opinions, i’d say. A word is not offensive. The way the word is used can be. See the difference?
For example, my grandmother uses “the n word” all the times, because that’s the word she’s always used.She’s born in fascist italy 90 years ago, she doesn’t know what the hell politically correct is and she says stuff like “I like your n-word friend. She’s so smart and pretty”. I don’t think that makes her racist, because the way people act is way more important than the word they use. (To clarify, I should point out that we don’t have much racism here, and both the N and the C word aren’t considered such a big deal. A word is a word)
Random thoughts: 1)How is the use of the cword condoned in the US? I remember the faces of my american friends when I told them we all use it every day here..
2)For what I remember, the nword isn’t considered “incendiary”. People say it. BTW, I’ll never understand how the “n-word privilege” (cit, TVTropes) works. So, black people can say it all the time, and some of their white friends can get away with it, but not everybody can? And they get incredibly mad when somebody else uses it? It looks like it’s all about the word and not about what the word imply. This attention to details and political correctness is so sad. People should stop worrying about how people talk and start thinking about what they do.
Anyway, I agree with you that there’s no point in this discussion, so let’s end it here if you want. (and I should go to sleep) I just like to talk about stuff, and I’m glad we’re having this discussion
Katie,
Ahaha, she’s definitively a feminist, and she’s really cool. She’d talk about everything, make jokes about stuff like sex and politics and say that the boys in our class (and men in general) being troglodytes, and it’s really, really fun :D It’s even funnier because she’s actually right (there are some real misogynis guys in my class, and they really are troglodytes). I guess you can say from this post that English is my favorite subject at school :D
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Great stuff; fantastic post from Fury, and some really great responses. Well, most of them. Color me amused that some of the Finish-The-Book-George grumpkins have meandered over once again. It feels like they suddenly realized there was an actual discussion happening—and it might even be engaging, so they felt the need to troll it. They come like once a year. It’s Groundhog Day!
And really, it’s an attention thing. We see it. I actually take it as a mark of respect when someone takes the time to parse through a multi-paragraph offering in order to pick out the one or two sentences they can actually (finally) mock. It’s their way of giving props. Too funny.
Back to the subject. One thing that struck me as a little odd is the apparently varied ideas on what constitutes nudity.
Now I know I sound a little like I’ve fallen off the far-left liberal wagon when I say my views are not the views expressed by the MPAA. I am a fan of equality. A naked female chest seems the same to me as a naked male chest—except better, of course, because I’m a male heterosexual. But to female heterosexuals, I like to imagine it’s the opposite. I’m going to say most of them would prefer (if given the choice) of an attractive naked male torso over a female one.
But in the end the preference should probably be split about 50/50, much like ASoIaF’s fandom. I’m not “titillated” (ironic, that word) by a naked female chest unless it’s being shown in a sexual way. A random pair of bouncing boobs doesn’t suddenly put me in a sexual mindset.
My view is to see it as … art, I guess. That’s just the best way I can describe it. So to me, a topless female Dothraki dancer is the exact same thing as a topless male Dothraki dancer, and I don’t think it’s too presumptuous of me to say that they’re supposed to be viewed equally when shown next to one another in the same fashion.
Now then, of course, there are plenty of people who will say, “No, the female chest is always sexual, and the male chest is not even in the same discussion.” And that’s not just a small opinion—it’s also one shared by the ratings system in today’s movie and television censors.
So I get that that’s how a lot of people feel. I just don’t personally agree with the particular logic behind it.
So that said, if we were to across-the-board remove every appearance of naked upper torsos—moth male and female—we have to ask ourselves what we’re left with.
Genitalia and butts. And should butts count? Really? Lancel Lannister aside, everyone has a butt. I see baby butts on commercials. I’ve seen Franz’s butt on NYPD Blue more times than I’d like to count. Is a butt supposed to be funny or titillating? (There’s that word again!) I think they’re kind of funny. Butts!
So if we’re getting down to the nitty gritty, it’s the differing male / female genitalia that should be the point of contention where nudity equality is being discussed. And just off the top of my head… well, we’ve got Theon’s bow and Hodor’s hodor. We saw Ros’s moneybucket. Did we see Armeca’s hey-na-nee-na-nee-na? Might not have. I can’t remember—I was distracted by Littlefinger’s monologue.
Offhand I can’t remember any more. Are the males winning?
Anyway. Keep this thing going. Love the varied opinions and subjective-yet-enlightened responses.
FaB
Fire And BloodQuote Reply
I loved your post.
I liked the part about nudity, because I don’t agree with the opinion that shirtless guys = fine, bare chested women = sexual, but I’d like to point out that, even counting shirtless guys, we still need more male nudity. Call it par condicio, gender equality or eye candy, I think we need it.
And I HAD to quote the “everyone has a but except for Lancel Lannister” part, because it made me LOL
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
where are cats?
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Alas, I had to cut the list off somewhere, but I did neglect to include the Great Apes (specifically the gorilla and the chimpanzee), who, when comparing speed, strength/body weight, acuity/range of vision, and flexibility, probably rank slightly above Seal Team 6.
DH87Quote Reply
And if a man doesn’t like a coworker, he ignores or disparages that individual’s work; freezes his/her budget; makes subtle “jabs” within the male-dominated enclaves of the golf course, strip club, business junket, and hotel bar; or otherwise sabotages him/her until he/she moves on, voluntarily or otherwise.
Your point?
DH87Quote Reply
SSJWugWug,
I hope you are never in a position to hire anyone, because that is some seriously flawed judgement.
I hope you like this show. Just so you know, the president of HBO is a woman. (As are many high-ranking executives in cable, for the record.) Without her flawed, emotional, hindered say-so, we wouldn’t be here. Thank God she got herself under control, huh?
KatieQuote Reply
Finally, someone gets to the core of the issue. Thank you for stating what really should be obvious, and for stating it with such eloquence.
LuanaQuote Reply
Katie,
Jeda,
I don’t think that the medieval politics of Westeros okays this. GRRM created Westeros. He is the one who sets the limits for its characters, not the setting itself.
Likewise, Westeros is not a carbon copy of medieval Europe: the author carefully chose which elements of medieval life he would include, which he would exclude, and which he would tailor to suit his needs. For example, the role of the church in medieval England (and continental Western Europe) was vastly different from that played by Martin’s Faith of the Seven. The Christian church was of paramount importance for both commoners and the aristocracy, yet the author has no problem with downplaying religion in his series in favor of the political wheedling. Information on the Seven is scarce compared to the overwhelming detail he provides for the many noble houses.
So. Patriarchy was very much a part of medieval life. But as I point out, so was the Church. It’s the author who choses what stays intact and what gets cut.
ALR,
The background violence bothers me too, thanks for pointing that out. I never really had an opinion on the depiction of lgbt characters in the books until GRRM has Victarion toss a chained mass of “perfumed boys” into the sea just because he feels the need to establish Victarion as a cruel man (a fact I’m pretty sure every reader already grasped). A large chunk of my enjoyment reading the series comes from the richness of the world and my experience immersed in it. Disclaimer: I’m gay and brown – one of them “perfumed boys.” So when a huddled group of “perfumed boys” are casually, brutally murdered, an action flippantly covered in the span of one sentence and completely irrelevant to plot or character development, it totally disrupts my reading experience. I mean, how am I supposed to read that and feel nothing?
So you’re right Katie. GRRM is not concerned with sexism, racism, homophobia, or any other ism. It shows.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Luana,
Thanks!
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
I cleaned up the thread a little bit as the trolls had gotten too numerous and too offensive. Hopefully the discussion can continue in the civil and mature tone that we had going for a while there.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Kate,
Several dozen posts back you talked about Sam. One of the revealing things GRRM does relative to this discussion is with Randyll Tarly. Lord Randyll condemns his son to the Wall because Sam doesn’t conform to Tarly’s ideal of what a man is supposed to be. By contrast, in AFfC, we see Tarly treating Brienne with “if you’re raped you deserve it” disdain for failing to conform to what a woman is supposed to be. I suppose that makes Tarly an equal opportunity asshole. I think it would be cool if Brienne got to meet Sam at some point – not quite sure how that could happen…
littlejanetQuote Reply
And thank God for that.
johnQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
The violence in this series is overwhelming. I think we can all agree at this point that GRRM doesn’t treat anybody in inordinately violent ways, he treats EVERYBODY that way. (I believe EvilPicnic made that point above.) This is not a pretty world he’s created. It’s more extreme than ours in a lot of ways, and it takes the worst of humanity and wipes your face in it. Personally, I read this series knowing that a lot of what goes on is going to make me really uncomfortable. I know that the author intends me to feel this way. I also know that he has written characters as a contrast to all of this bad shit that I can take comfort in and root for. That’s what keeps me reading.
Slightly off-topic, I want to address your comparison of the Church in our world and the Church in his.There is actually evidence of the Faith of the Seven being more influential in Westeros than it is portrayed in the time period we’re reading out. The fact that Baelor the Blessed was such an influential King is one piece of evidence. Also, if we were only seeing the political intrigue going on in Westeros up until now, it doesn’t mean that the Faith hasn’t been boiling away in the background. GRRM is the king of showing only one viewpoint, while hinting at movement going on in the scenery that we get back to hundreds of pages later. So far, we have the re-constitution of religious armies, and the wandering monks preaching to the peasant classes during the wars. You also have the faith of R’hllor rising up to challenge the Faith of the Seven. I get the feeling that religion is about to come back in a big way to Westeros. I wouldn’t be surprised if we did see a more familiar portrayal of the relationship between Church and State in the rest of the series.
KatieQuote Reply
littlejanet,
Man, I would love to see Brienne and Sam travel together. Better, to see them save Randyll Tarly’s life, just so his head can explode from having his world view rocked so hard. Equal opportunity asshole is right.
KatieQuote Reply
EvilPicnic,
To answer your question, I would probably spend my dollars on the story that included all four archetypes, each explored with the same degree of depth.
And I hadn’t thought about Yara/Asha, thanks for pointing her out. She seems to be an exception. But, her character does fail the Bechdel test: “The Bechdel Test, sometimes called the Mo Movie Measure or Bechdel Rule is a simple test which names the following three criteria: (1) the film has to have at least two women in it, who (2) talk to each other, about (3) something besides a man.” Although used to look at films (most fail), I think it can apply to novels as well. And with Asha/Yara, the novels clearly fail with #2 and #3. Still, you make a fair point.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Katie,
I think you’ll be proven right, but I’m only commenting on what I’ve read thus far. The troubles with the Faith appear in, if I’m not mistaken, no more than five chapters in a span of five books. I can’t speak to what may or may not be happening in an unwritten background, particularly when we know so little of the Faith’s history. The High Septon welcoming Aegon the Conquerer and later Maegor’s rebellion are the only historical events written so far, but correct me if I’m wrong. Compare that to the lengthy and detailed history we have concerning the Targaryen dynasty.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
It can be incendiary for sure. The rule is not what is said but very much about what it implies. Basically, if you say it and mean it that you think someone is trash or lower than trash, then it’s hurtful. If you use it in a group context it’s the same. If you use it in the sense that ‘you’re not better than me’ it isn’t. If you are insensitive about it even then though it is. I’m a black man and I don’t use it but I’m not trying to represent. I just think the word is too fraught and know there are still too many people who mean it.
Generally, speech has degenerated over the years in the US to the point where it would be hard to be genuinely incendiary because everyone has heard it all before. The funny part is when people get offended at being called out about being racist as though being called racist is worse than being racist. Your grandma sounds like a cool cat, context is everything.
Once upon a time though not too long ago if you simply called someone “motherfucker” they’d deck you because of the insult to their mother. Custom changes though words still have meaning.
SkipjackQuote Reply
Skipjack,
There are ways to challenge or shock in speech and remain within accepted norms.Using the n-word and the c-word is so high-risk and so dependent upon the audience, as you well explain, that one has to assume the purpose is to offend. (It certainly can be assumed from the deleted/quoted post.) That these words are used so often in conjunction with language of sexual violence and misogyny confirms intention.
An interesting experiment is to insert the word in question in the sentence “All you—— should be taken care of.” A value-neutral term, such as Englishmen, sounds benign; a slur sounds threatening and is clearly hate speech.
DH87Quote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Funnily enough, the history I have to add to what you’ve already cited comes from a history of the Targaryens. Asshai.com has an article that has illustrations of most of the Targaryen dynasty, along with their descriptions as written by GRRM. Here’s the page:
http://bit.ly/iLIqgH
In the descriptions of Baelor the Blessed and his sister/wife Daena, and their sisters Rhaena and Elaena, GRRM expounds a little of their history with the Faith of the Seven in Westeros. Baelor seems like an orthodox believer. He ended up not being able to consummate his marriage to his sister due to his dedication to the Faith, and had all three of them locked up in the Red Keep for being “temptations to the men at court.” You have to assume that under his rule, religion was EXTREMELY important.
Going from events in the timeline the series is set, we know that whoever is High Septon of the Faith is supposed to hold political power. Otherwise, Cersei wouldn’t have wasted her time on placing her own animal in the seat. Her punishment really knocks home what the Faith of the Seven has the power to do, even to the royal family. It’s definitely a player in the game of thrones. It’ll be interesting to see that aspect of the culture brought out more. (Interesting, and, as always, uncomfortable. Yet another extreme religious movement! Greaaaat.)
KatieQuote Reply
Wow! Just getting back to this and 246 posts! And I was afraid there wouldn’t be enough responses!! LOL.
I haven’t read all these posts, but I just wanted to pop in one more thought, then I am going to go read more – I do think that Martin writes women in an unfair way – he definitely gives the men main characters better dialogue – they get jokes, snappy repartee, charismatic comebacks, and the women are almost always the ‘straight man’ part – like Buzzkill Brienne to Charistmatic Jaime, Overbearing Cersei to Witty Tyrion.
And I get the feeling that Martin can write male characters better – so he does. And the female characters come off as worse for it. This is probably due to him being a male, and not raising any daughters himself, I think.
Some writers’ strong points lay in different areas, and in Martin he doesn’t write the women as well, and therefore they come off as less realistic and less sympathetic. Except for fan favorite Arya, who is basically written as a boy.
My opinion of course, feel free to disagree :)
purplejillyQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
True, GRRM picks and choose, and on top of the religion example you gave you could also argue that because it’s fantasy he could potentially change things even more. But why should he? Would we really want to? A lot of the success of the novels comes from the tragedies, the prejudice, the unfairness of it all, precisely because it’s reminescent of our past. That’s why I asked how you would see it work, how she could have power in such a world other than the ways already depicted. In fact there is one: Melissandre and her magic, and even then it seems sometimes over the top, beyond the ‘touch’ of fantasy (althouth there are now other examples). You can’t just add modern version of women empowerement into that mix, any form of political correctness in Westeros and there is no more tragedy, and the novel loses much of its appeal. Besides women struggle is only one part of it, noble women in Westeros have a far better deal than the soldiers dying in the snow defending their keep, let alone children such as the butcher’s boys and many more kids killed in the series. At the end of the day it’s how the characters survive their struggle that makes ASOIAF so worthwhile imo.
JedaQuote Reply
Elena, I think you do understand it, because that’s a pretty good description, and yes, that’s how it works here in America. I live near Baltimore, MD and have some black friends that call each other the nword when around me, but I do not and would not use the nword around them, because that’s the protocol. (since I am white) It’s a word they reserve for their own use and that’s just the way it is.
purplejillyQuote Reply
YES. The way Cersei is written really rankles me for the reasons you give. “Overbearing Cersei to Witty Tyrion,” is so true. Hopefully they change that in Season 2.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Forgot to say: I think Martin very much wants us to feel something, and strongly. Many times I felt a deep unfairness, I’m sure we all did, I felt like a kid hearing something wrong happens in a story for the first time (many old kids stories are quite cruel anyway). But that’s really what kept me reading.
More interestingly, I actually felt that homosexuality was one of the few things in Westeros where there wasn’t so much prejudice, probably closer to antiquity philosophy than middle-age but I could be wrong. For example Renly and Loras might suffer a few jokes there and there (which really is nothing in this world) but aside from the jokes it seemed to me their pseudo-hidden relationship was far from a state offense, and they’re both liked and respected. Curious to have your opinion on this one.
JedaQuote Reply
purplejilly,
Here’s a topic to spin off of: can men write women? Even people lauded for their ability to capture the female voice (Joss Whedon for example) have been criticised because they are simply undertaking the antithesis of
what has already been done. Are all authors culpable for making certain that their female characters are as multifaceted as their male counterparts? Personally I believe that many male authors are guilty as Martin when it comes to this. I think until we see a world of complete gender equality we are going to be dealing with these archetypes and these tropes.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
john,
What? No reply to my apology/explanation? Did i insult you that much? If you don’t care that’s fine I guess. I’m just surprised is all.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Josh Atreides,
I think GRRM handled it pretty well. In most polls about favourite characters, you find Arya and Danny as the favourite, often with Tyrion and Jon. That’s 50% female, 50% male. Arya might be a tomboy of course but that’s not the case for Danny. I very much like some of Whedon’s work but what works for TV wouldn’t work in Westeros I think. Purplejelly raised an interesting point about the dialogues, I’ll pay more attention in the next novel but so far I much prefer the way Martin writes women than Wheddon. Martin portrays women with the strength we know them to have, he doesn’t make the mistake of having Elisa Dushku in high heels overpowering bouncers two men couldn’t possibly move aside, and the same in every episode (Dollhouse) which annoyed my wife even more than me. Again it seems to me he keeps things immersive and believable. But… I’ll pay more attentions to the dialogues.
JedaQuote Reply
Yes, the series expertly titillates our sense of outrage over the injustices of history. The medieval period was a very bleak time for most in Europe. However, while most European men and their male descendents can view “the tragedies, the prejudice, the unfairness of it all” as distant memories from a past time, for many – women, people of color, and non-heterosexuals especially – brutal injustice is alive and well. For us, there is nothing historical about violent oppression. Certainly, few men are crucified and left to die screaming these days, but it was not very long ago that black men were strung up in trees and burned alive for the crime of looking a white woman in the eye. And while I, as a man, have the privilege to walk down the street at night without fear of gang rape, most women do not have that luxury.
So, why he should change anything and would want him to? The problem with the books, as I see it, is that within Martin’s created world of Westeros, there is no space for gender equality. The game is rigged. You suggest that without female disempowerment, ASOIAF would be unsuccessful. For me, that’s the issue.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
I see your point and why you’re more sensitive to it. But litterature shouldn’t only be about politics. It really shouldn’t be, I’m sure you’ll agree with that much. And it’s not only about the success (if anything many novels are succesful without being dark) but artistic license. Literature is there to depict cruelty, outrage and injustice, if only to warn about the real danger. But even without it, it’s very important authors do that, otherwise how can you even read a Greek tragedy? It’s a good thing there is no space for human rights in Martin’s world, but I don’t think the game is rigged. While who live by the sword die by the sword, the clever ones like Varys can thrive, Danny becomes Queen, we don’t know what Sansa will do yet and I’d like to read more of Loras.
JedaQuote Reply
Up until the Victarion chapter I mentioned, I felt the same way. LGBT characters were/are mostly absent from the series and honestly, I’d prefer it to stay that way. Straight writers should leave such things alone unless they actually want to expend a little energy thinking about what their representations mean. GRRM obviously isn’t interested; I don’t blame him for that. The whole Loras/Renly thing was pretty boring. More of a “wink, wink, they’re gay!” than anything else. But he wades into the thick of it with his perfumed boys debacle. Christ. Who edited that mess?
I suspect any writer who murders background characters in order to foreground some characteristic of the lead male. The fact that those murdered were nonheterosexual and that it found its way into the novel mostly for shock value is absolutely ridiculous. I can say with absolute confidence that his disposable gays will never once be mentioned again in the novels. They are there for color and gore, period.
And in the same chapter, Martin has the sodomized Maester (filling the “cowardly homosexual” trope) tossed overboard with the rest.
Visibility does not always equal empowerment.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Don’t exactly remember how it was written but I’ll take your word for it as I also noticed that the ‘shock value’ of many scenes were getting saturated, especially with book 5.
JedaQuote Reply
Is written just as he said, my memory is not completely reliable but I remember that scene because I too think it was terrible and gratuitous. And I already said this in the thread about ADWD.
andreaQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
“Straight writers should leave such things alone unless they actually want to expend a little energy thinking about what their representations mean.”
I’m not sure how many ways I can disagree with this statement. So I’ll just say I think it’s a load of hooey. It’s telling that you felt the same way as Jeda until Victarion—a character clearly not meant to be represented in any sort of redeemable fashion—offhandedly killed people you finally felt some sort of connection with. After how many other casual deaths?
That may be the biggest example of reader entitlement since… well, since Just Finish The Book George.
It’s fiction. The writer has no responsibility to “empower” anyone.
Fire And BloodQuote Reply
That’s certainly true, I hope I didn’t offend you. I just said what I think about usinng curse words, we shoudln’t have let the discussion go there. (Although, now that it think about it, misogyny and racism are two very similar thing)
Well, the problem is that she’s stupid :P
I’ve no trouble with black people using that word, since it’s not one of my favorite words anyway. My problem is that I think we (0the society) care too much about blatant, obvious episodes (like using a bad word) rather than more troubling stuff (like, a mom who doesn’t let her daughter dating a black boy). The second one is way worse, IMO, because it denotes a narrow mindness and ignorance but nobody makes a fuss about it when it happens.
Of course, there’s nothing we can do about it, but I really appreciate the discussion and the answers I got.
I also dislike this. Not because Cersei looks stupid when she talks to Tyrion (she IS stupid) but because this is trying too hard to make Tyrion looks the awsome cool guy of the story. I dislike Tyrion because of his action, and the way he’s written really makes me dislike more. It’s like if GRRM were saying “you HAVE to like him”. No, just stop.
Really? As far as I know, many, many people dislike Dany. I’m not talking about tv viewers, I’m talking about book readers. And, BTW, a lot of people who LIKE Dany use the misogyny card a lot “you hate her because she’s a woman and has a sex life”. No, it’s because she’s dull.
I really don’t think so. It was perfeclty in line with the way Victarion thinks. He didn’t need them, he didn’t like him. I’d like to point out the Iron Islands – and maybe the North – are the most similar thing to actual Middle Ages in the books. Just as Jon’s gaydar is completely off, homesexual men make Victarion uncomfortable.
andrea,
I don’t think it was for shock value. It was to show how Victarion thinks, avoiding to have him kill some named character on screen.. so GRRM had him kill a bunch of faceless characters in a pretty gruesome way, because he HAD to, but he made it so that many readers would have enjoyed the chapter. And many DID.
I think the fact is that the chapter is written in a “off” way. We don’t read what Vic is thinking, and we don’t read anything about the actual deaths – did they scream? did they beg for mercy? – mostly because Vic doesn’t give a crap. In a book that big people already have charaters they care about, so the people Vic killed are nothing but names on a pages and the readers won’t care about them so much.
Well, IMO finish the book george was fun. We all have though this, or even said it out loud :D
PS:what happened to the edit button?
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Thank you for the great discussion so far, everyone. Please continue ;)
Hear Me RoarQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
Yes really, I didn’t make it up, although it’s true that most internet polls were made only after the starts of the series so it’s quite hard to differentiate book readers from viewers in them, thus not invalidating what you heard from book readers. I’m not sure I follow what you mean by liking Dany being linked to a misoginy card or her sex life? Can’t any difference of opinion and constructive criticism about a female character be made without being associated to misogyny in one way or another? It’s getting incredibly complicated: The very opposite of what can be perceived as being misogyny can be seen as the worst example of misogyny in the eyes of someone else. Dull is a bith harsh though, there is nothing dull about the part when she burns Miri, nothing dull when she uses the Unsullied in Book 3. She was dull in book 5, or maybe her chapters were, and maybe that’s just it, maybe I’m associating the chapters I liked to read, and what happened in them, to the character herself. Not that I’m particularly defensive about Dany, that list of Jon, Tyrion, Arya and Danny is not necessarily my personal list.
JedaQuote Reply
I was wondering the same thing today. Wasn’t there also a preview? I know it’s been a while I’ve been here but It was quite practical. Can’t we have it back?
JedaQuote Reply
Ah! Sorry, late hour = slow brain. On re-read I think I got what you meant: You want people to be free to find Dany dull without others using the sexist card on them. Well, like I said I didn’t find her (or at least her chapters) dull but that’s only my personal opinion and if it’s what you meant I totally agree with you.
JedaQuote Reply
SPOILERS UP TO DANCE. Nothing too big – deaths and similar will be marked. It’s about Dany’s arc
I was mostly talking about what I read in discussion forums, but I’ve never seen dany in a “character we like the most poll”. Anyway, I meant that many people dislike Dany because she’s boring, dull and has a huge superiority complex. The fact that she spends Dance doing nothing, thinking she knows better and mooning after a guy rather than think – something a self appointed queen should do. Many people, though, defend Dany saying that the people who don’t like her are misogynistic, and that she’s a strong woman and it’s absolutely fine if she sleeps with people, completely missing the point. I hate how some people play the misogyny or the racsm card everytime – doing so leads people to understimate those thing and to stop taking them seriously.
The main reasons why I dislike dany, besides the ones I wrote above which don’t bother me that much, are
1)Her attitude. “I want the world to be a nice place, with happines, luv and pink ponies, we all have to be happy, but HEY, I’ll burn whoever gets in my way. Slavery is bad but absolute monarchy in which crazy dudes like my dad can kill whoever they wants is FINE. Plus, I have the right to go and kill slavers because they’re EVIL and nobody wants them in power anyway, but Westeros don’t have a right to decide who the kinds has to be and i’ll KILL those traitors. Also, why doesn’t averybody love me? I’m doing this for their own good! I’m the mother! LOVE me!”
Why don’t you stop this and do actually something?
2)Her hypocrisy. Okay, I hate, hate, hate Dany’s attitude about slavery. First, I always dislike when a character in a MA setting comes up with modern idea, because it’s stupid. Dany has never had any troubles with slavery until she came to astapor. Yeah, she’s been sold, but she’s never shown to be bothered by it. Then she comes to astapor. She wants to BUY unsullied. She doesn’t have money. She DOES AGREE to a slave trade, and then she kills them. A smart move. But don’t go and explain it by saying you want to wage war against slavery, because it doesn’t make any sense. Say you wanted to take those cities, but don’t say you’re right in doing so because slavers are EVUL, especially when you’re a supporter of absolute monarchy in which, as Tyrion pointed out, there’s really no big difference between being smallfolk and being a slave. Plus, if you think you have the right to go and overthrow a goverment because you don’t want it, saying you do it because people didn’t like it, then don’t go complaining about the usurper’s dogs and how westeros is yours by right. Don’t go saying you’re right and everybody else is wrong
3)Her superiority complex. I’m the blood of the dragon was cool the first two hundred times. I don’t get sick made me think “I wish you do. Now”
4)She’s not a good ruler. IMO Dany’s the most immature character in ASOIAF. As a combination of my points 1)2)3), she wants things to be how she wants, and she wants them NOW. She lets herself be emotional when she shouldn’t and she doesn stupid stuff. First, when she killed the 163 masters. Exactly, why? She had no means to know if the people she killed were among the ones who killed the children. Probably they weren’t, since the most powerful slvares weren’t among them. Second, the innkeeped of the place in which an Unsullied was killed. He probably doesn’t know anything about it, but Missandei is crying and Dany feels so impotent she has to hurt somebody, even if it’s likely an inconcent. Third, the way she handles Meeren and Daario. You can’t let your hormones decide for you, and you can’t have it all. Just leave the freaking city now, because you can’t change it.
5)I have a fifth point – it’s about how Dany wants to change Slaver’s bay culture because she wants to. Breaking news – you CAN’T change a millenary culture in a few months. The moment you leave, everything will be back the way it was, just worse. If you want to change people, you have to understand them and trying to show them new ways, not just order them to change or you’ll kill them. She did basically the same mistake Jon didi, only on a much bigger scale and handled slighlty worse.
I don’t know how much I wrote, I’m sure it’s a LOT. But when I start I can’t stop :D
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Jeda,
I wish I read this before I wrote that novel above :D Anyway, yep, I meant that I want to be free to dislike whoever I want and not be called things.
And it’s not just Dany, Cersei or ASOIAF, BTW. It’s just that I really hate that attitude.
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Wow! It’s like … someone actually READ SoIaF???
I agree with all of it. Which is why I think she should be naked all the time in the show.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
I actually really like Emilia Clarke. I think show!Dany will come out way better than book!dany.
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
I think you need to take GRRM’s POV writing-style into account. Because if he was using an objective, or omniscient voice then I might very well agree with you.
GRRM alternates between different characters, each with their own subjective (and occasionally unreliable) voice. I think the most obvious example of differing viewpoints is Rhaegar, and how depending on which character we’re following we hear very different stories about his character. Or how Reek’s chapters change in tone as he regains some semblance of his life as Theon. But it also applies to subtler things, like how our characters react in different ways to the horrors and pleasures of the world. You can tell whose chapter you’re reading by the style of prose. I reread aGoT recently and Ned’s chapters feel like wearing blinkers!
I think in the chapter you’re referring to it was written that way because Victarion THINKS that way. You wouldn’t find a similar passage in a Dany chapter, for example.
Why I think this is ok, is because there is a difference between presenting an appalling fact and showing a character’s opinion of it, and the author condoning or endorsing such a view. Especially when the character has already been established as one the audience should loathe.
I think I would apply this thought to the entirety of the last two books…
EvilPicnicQuote Reply
Quoted for truth.
VAGUE DANCE SPOILERS
Whilst I thought Dany was fairly boring but just about tolerable in earlier books, aDwD Dany was just insufferable. And I think it’s George’s fault.
Dany’s all like, ‘I am the blood of the dragon, let me get this shit on the road and DO SOMETHING!’, and GRRM’s all like, ‘Not yet Dany, Tyrion’s still got five taverns to go his pub-crawl. Just wait around for a bit in that city nobody cares about, whilst I periodically remind the reader you’re still a character… Maybe you’ll get to have a story in the next book, hey?’
No wonder she spent most of it throwing a strop.
EvilPicnicQuote Reply
Noooooooooooooooooooo……
He just channeled her. Though obviously he finds all women to be boring and all men to be exciting.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
hey, I liked Feast. And Dance minus Dany and Tyrion. They ARE well written books. The only problem is that, since nothing happens and we’ll have to wait half a decade for the next one, we can’r enjoy them fully
Yeah, my problem with LatestBooks!Dany is that I really don’t know if GRRM is planning a slow decend into the dark path of mental disability for her or if she’s just badly written. I guess we’ll find out with the next books.
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
While I have no particular desire to use the word in question (I’m British and white, I’ve never heard any of my friends- black people included- use that word) I find this concept sad. I don’t want to offend anyone, but the very idea that some people can use a word and others can’t keeps the concept of ‘them’ and ‘us’ alive, and I don’t like that at all. I get it, but I wish it didn’t work that way.
Victarion calmly killed a group of women too, with just as little comment. There are two messages from those deaths- firstly that Victarion will calmly kill whoever he feels like, and secondly a bit of background information on the free cities and the slave trade- we now know that slave prostitutes of both genders, who likely had no choice in the matter, are traded in large numbers. We as readers feel sorry for them, Victarion doesn’t even register that they’re people.
Or more generally, how well can any author write someone who is different to him/herself? Gender is only one aspect of who a person is- and how important an aspect depends on the person.
I think GRRM does a good job with this for the most part. Read Sansa’s chapters in AGOT. She’s annoying, far from cool- but a very realistic girl- not every young girl thinks like Sansa, far from it, but there are many who do.
This is a fair idea in principle, but in the show it’s rare for a woman to be shown topless in a non-sexual situation (the dancers clearly were there for sex!). Drogo walks around topless because Dothraki think armour is for wimps. Ros walks around topless because her entire purpose- both the character’s job and the purpose of having her in the show- centres around sex.
Off the top of my head, I can only think of two occasions where women appeared nude or partially nude in a non-sexual setting, Lysa breastfeeding and Dany post-fire (sadly even here one of my male housemates commented on her nudity before noticing the dragons! But that one man does that should not be extrapolated to them all.), most female nudity was sexual in nature. Whereas there were far more non-sexual (Dothraki especially, but not exclusively) topless men.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Katie,
Too late.
I have no problem hiring a woman for a job she can perform just as well as a man, and giving her equal opportunity. I also have zero tolerance for workplace drama, it has a negative effect on environment and quality. I have had to cut men as well as women for trying to stir things up. The fact is for every man I have cut due to causing discord, I have had to cut four women.
Yes astute observation, the President of HBO is a woman. Here’s the kicker, I am as well.
SSJWugWugQuote Reply
SSJWugWug,
Wait, you’re a woman and you’re making these comments? Way to give in to your own stereotypes. I’m curious, what industry do you work in? With these kinds of attitudes, I want to make sure I avoid it.
Honestly, you came into this thread talking about how “women get in their own way”. Why, exactly? That’s not remotely what we were talking about. So, other than to imply that men are right to judge women harshly and treat them accordingly, what was your purpose here?
KatieQuote Reply
Phoenix_torn,
Wow,this has gotten crazy! So many great responses though. Some not so much.
Yes, I am a V.C. Andrews fan. FITA and Heaven were my favorite books. So after reading her stuff nothing surprises me.
HildaQuote Reply
Hilda,
like button needed :D
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
This trick is to fire women before they get pregnant.
Epic pinaforesQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
And I actually agree with most of it ;-) But that’s also why I don’t find her dull, because from the point of view of an interesting story, I like to see her corruption getting worse and worse as she’s finding choices more and more difficult.
To me, and I’m sure you noticed it too given what you wrote, but the hypocrisy started before Miri’s burning, when the Dothraki started to raid villages just so she could get her army. Ok, she smoothed things down but she still kick started death and burning so that she could have her throne. Was there another choice? Actually yes, she wasn’t a slave anymore, she was a Dothraki Queen, she didn’t have to start killing people to survive. But then there would be no story.
Bottom line, if it wasn’t story I’m not sure I’d like to see her on the throne, I’d rather have Stanis (except since Book5) with Varys as counsilor ;-)
JedaQuote Reply
You make several assumptions here, about both me and my opinion of the books. Let me clarify so that you don’t feel the need to assume.
“People you finally felt some sort of connection with.” Why do you conclude these are the first characters, minor or major, that I can “finally” feel a connection with? Is it because they are a few of the only non-heterosexual characters to appear in the series, and because I hold a critical view of their role in the novel, I must be only able to feel “connections” with characters who share my skin color and non-heterosexual orientation?
Do you yourself only feel connected to characters who share your skin color and sexual orientation? Even though I do not know you, I am going to graciously assume that the answer is no; that you possess the basic humanity to “connect” with many characters, white, brown, or otherwise.
“After how many other casual deaths?” Let’s imagine for a moment a heterosexual white male reader. Now, let’s imagine a non-heterosexual non-white male reader. They each sit down and read ASOIAF. Let’s recall the many, many white heterosexual characters (major and minor, foreground and background) who die in the novels, in a variety of gruesome ways.
“After how many other casual deaths?” Please bear with me. Because now I am going to take the outrageous step of putting myself in someone else’s shoes, someone who does not share my race or sexual orientation. I am going to imagine that the white hetero male reader would see nothing untoward with the treatment of white male characters in ASOIAF. Yes, many die brutal deaths, but many others also survive to fight another day. And those who do die, die in such a variety of ways that it would be outright silly to single out one instance, and then take offense.
“After how many other casual deaths?” Now let’s recall the select few non-white non-heterosexual characters who die in the novels, most of whom die in precisely one way, in exactly one scene, described in approximately one sentence. How many of them met casual deaths? Is the answer not, all of them? And if so, how might it make that same white hetero male reader feel to read a series in which, not some, not a few, but all of the white hetero male characters died? How might he feel if their deaths were given no weight by the author? How might he feel if their deaths barely registered to novel’s brown readers?
And then I ask you to take that same outrageous step, and imagine how those scarce few deaths (the perfumed boys and Oberyn Martell to be precise) might read to one who is not white and heterosexual.
FaB, I am not going to do this work for you. I believe that you possess the basic empathetic skills needed to put yourself in my shoes. Perhaps if you did you might respond differently to my criticism. Perhaps if you did, it would be harder to misread my personal opinion and taste as an example of “reader entitlement,” and the “biggest example since” .
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
I agree. It´s fun just like this blog is fun too and sometimes both can be intolerant.
Right, amen. Don´t be angry with me when I say that Greyjoy´s men are all brutes ;)
I know what you mean about Victarion, still there are things I find exaggerated. Some subtlety wouldn´t bother me at all. I already know how Greyjoys are. Those characters you say nobody cares about are those that help to explain the main characters. These “names on pages” do reflect the reality of past and present (imo) and is not a reality I particularly like. Today (maybe) nobody would throw a group of slaves to the sea but the same thing is done every day in a less obvious manner. Perhaps this is what GRRM is trying to say but maybe is just what I want to believe… so, augh I´m sorry I need my own language for this kind of discussion… I would have to give you very personal examples to explain myself in english and they´re irrelevant here. I guess you understand?.
Yes Danny is boring. About Tyrion: I think what defines Tyrion´s personality is this loving memory he has for someone he says he loved but raped anyway and that´s terrible too ( I don´t remember if that was said in season one) . At least he feels miserable most of the time. Perhaps that´s the only banal argument I have in Tyrion´s favor.
andreaQuote Reply
*edit
“biggest example since” -insert some vilified commentators name-.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Fire And Blood,
OJ already referred to this earlier, but it was useful to me so I’ll repeat. Google tvtrope “Do Not Do This Cool Thing.”
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Yes you have to be careful on TV, like the article you point to say you need to find a balance, particularly on some time of the day. You also have to be careful on mainstream cinema, that’s why you have an age rating. But you should be able to express yourself in art or independant cinema to a certain extent. Arugably in cinema, there is a debate because you have people’s safety to consider, like the life of stuntmen who sometimes die because we wish to be entertained, but there is no argument when it comes to writing a novel: you should really have complete free reign on how you depict a character. The book doesn’t convey the message someone should behave like Victarion, it’s not a political book. You can’t just monopolise and control writers imagination just because some are afraid on how others will take it. It’s wrong, plain wrong. You have to trust in people’s intelligence to make the difference between how someone behaves in a story and the real world, even if there is a risk, especially in literature, otherwise you never go forward and you inevitably slide towards dogma. Again how else do you see it work? Would you give a list of things ‘not to write’ to an author just because some will be offended by it? Even with guidelines to respect, not only you might kill the profession but none of the novels written under these rules would be remembered in the future, not one, because they’d most likely all seem the same.
JedaQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Lordlings and Ladies… two things.
1) I really enjoy having you here on this board and
2) Lit major? Gender studies? Honorary BAMF B.A.?
I think it would be interesting to delve into the emasculation trope in the series as well.
I need to read the section on the perfumed boys, as right now I want to argue that it’s not necessarily their choice to be perfumed. But yes, horrible things for background character development are horrible.
The best thing about these discussions, however, is that it doesn’t make me like the series any less, it’s just a re-frame. Hopefully I will come up with something more thoughtful to add to the discussion, but I’m going to need some more reading/watching time.
Which reminds me how discussion of TV -isms (sex-, rac- etc)shouldn’t be attributed to GRRM, and are better discussed in their own lens on visual media and more ‘mainstream’ television -isms.
Like the Dothraki being ‘barbaric’ and also brown/tan/visual foil to Dany, who is civilized and fair. Or the lack of any of the Summer Isles courtiers in the TV version.
OK, I need to organize my thoughts. All y’all, keep enlightening me.
ALRQuote Reply
Jeda,
I think it´s clear enough that one can say a novel (or whatever) is sexist without saying the writer also is. Maybe he´s not and he´s trying to make a point, but it´s inevitable that some things will slip away and people will react. And imo there has to be some responsibility, if not it would be better to write about less complicated issues. Although perhaps it´s just that … a story that pretends too much. I´m not so sure right now.
If GRRM is also making moral statements when writes a story like this (it doesn´t matter if he use differents PVO or an omniscient narrator)… why the reader can´t do the same?
Otherwise he would not have chosen a time as the middle ages to try to reflect something about the human spirit. Because he´s trying to say something… at least that is not debatable, right?
andreaQuote Reply
I don’t think he’s trying to say anything except: This is my book, and I will do whatever the fuck I want in it, including not write it.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
andrea,
” if not it would be better to write about less complicated issues”. That’s exactly it, I don’t think he’s necessarily writing about these specific issues. Why is the death of a perfumed boy or the raping of women anymore cruel than the killing of the butcher’s boy or the hanging of the inkeeper family and countless more? So I’m not even sure sexism applies separately since it’s a case of human rights completely missing, it’s all about survival and we all see our painful it is. He’s just writing about an extremely cruel world just so we feel for the character and their struggle. And it’s a good thing, he shouldn’t refrain from it otherwise we wouldn’t feel a thing, we all see a lot of it is immoral. My only issue with it is that after book 5 it’s sometimes getting repetitive.
JedaQuote Reply
Jeda,
George can write whatever he wants to write, I would be a lunatic to say or think otherwise. I’m offering my criticism. I’m not dictating what he should or shouldn’t put to paper.
ALR,
Not a gender studies or lit major but I have a passion for both. History major actually :) And thanks for the welcome. I’ve followed winteriscoming for awhile but I’ve never commented on the boards until now.
And I feel the same way. If I didn’t enjoy the show/books, I wouldn’t even be having this discussion. I have to go to work, but I’ll think a bit more about GRRM’s place in all this as it relates to greater media trends.
Thanks Ours Is The Fury for starting the convo!
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Thank you! I can’t stand how many people complain about bringing up issues of sexism, as if it was my fault. Because really, it’s a privilege to be able to ignore it and not have it in your face all the time.
I think is the fundamental problem with Ros as a character. She’s half baked. If they wanted to give a prostitute nuance and to explore who she is, they aren’t doing a good job of it. She’s only defined by her work, and by her relationships with men in the series. We never see her independent of men, she never goes out to shop for food, or do ordinary things or relate to women (w/w for the male gaze doesn’t count). She is only worthy of screen time when she is naked and sexually serving men.
This is one thing I love about aSoIaF and why it stands above so many other male-written epic fantasies. GRRM shows that there is more than one way to be an interesting, kick-ass woman. There are those who embrace feminine roles and use it for power, like Catelyn, and those who rebel, like Brienne. In fact I think Cat/Brienne are one of my favourite relationships. They are both strong, determined, clever women who go about their stations in different ways, and find common ground and friendship. Different types of women should not be at odds with one another, but it’s good to unite.
Cersei on the other hand shows how corosive the male-privledged society is. There is only one position to be Queen, whereas there’s several high power positions for men on the council. And so this structure pits women against women for the one place, and Cersei brings down other women who should be her natural allies, but instead they are threats because her own position is so precarious. It is a beautiful demonstration of how privledge really is divide and conquer.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
that´s what I´ve been thinking lately or more accurately I think the story just slipped away… too big, too pretentious but I hope we´re wrong because if not… what a waste of time! Well, not exactly because it´s entertaining. But I’m not so certain as you are right now.
andreaQuote Reply
Is not! I´m always (Elena knows it) saying something about all the victims in these books … especially those who don´t have a name.
Well, maybe that doesn´t say anything good about us … it has to be extremely cruel to make us feel?
Yes, it is repetitive.
andreaQuote Reply
Good point. I guess as far as books are concerned many of us need a visceral experience from time to time to be entertained, if only because of the ‘surprise’ factor. Or maybe it’s because I’m European and our kid stories could be so horrific you got addicted to the thrill… as long as it’s only a story of course ;-)
JedaQuote Reply
andrea,
Well, saying he’s not trying to say anything can never true. But whatever point he’s making really can only be understood by a genre writer after a career of semi-success. It’s never about a political statement; it’s always self-preserving genre drama. He’s flexing his writer’s muscles and giving himself certain freedom, that’s it. To me this isn’t about British history, parallels, sexism, etc. If you read his other books you know what his strenths are–women aren’t and kids aren’t. But this is just about him proving that he can sit down and write it during a moment of happiness. And sell it. And I think there’s a link to fantasy writer Lynn Flewelling here (in SoIaF) somehow. I’ve read her books and it’s amazing how similar her writer is to his. What is a moment of happiness? It is a moment where you as an artist do not have a relationship to keep you from living life. Relationships are worse than heroin on the artist brain. So to be completely frank and probably wrong, grrm was probably single or just starting a relationship when he wrote most of the three books (way before they were all published).
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Jeda,
I have no memories of such cruelty in the stories I read as a little girl ( a mixture of European and Latin American literature)… well, except that my loving father used to read Greek mithology to me o_O
and Westerns :)
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
No Hansel and Gretel? ;-) This one just came to mind, with the witch keeping the two protagonists (a brother and sister) and force-feeding them for days so that they taste better when cooked… Fortunately this one had a happy ending. They don’t always…
JedaQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
how many GRRM books will I need to read to persuade me (myself)??? I don´t know, I´ll keep trying for a little longer (ASOIAF only).
I don´t know if that’s what happened to him but it´s strange (curious) that you have thought that is a probable reason (because there are many others, you know). It may be true though, unfortunately. I didn´t think about it, really. To be honest I prefer not to be sure about some things. Talking about happiness and what it is to an artist… I dunno, maybe it’s just a coincidence (happiness I mean)
andreaQuote Reply
Jeda,
as I said… greek mithology… Cronus eats his children but they´re still alive in his stomach so Hansel and Gretel was fairy tale to me!!! ;)
andreaQuote Reply
Jeda,
and my mother used to take me to the cinema to watch horror movies with her… ¿lol?
Edit button please?
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
Fair enough. It was much later I was introduced to Greek Mythology, around 9, indeed I can see how the Kronos story could have been disturbing at an earlier age :)
JedaQuote Reply
Ours Is The Fury, THANK YOU SO MUCH for writing this article. I love ASOIAF (what I have read of it so far), not only because of the fantasy/politics/adventure aspects of it, but because of the many points it raises regarding women’s issues. The funny thing is, the aspects that I find so feminist are precisely the ones that other people think are so misogynistic or sensationalistic. First of all, I couldn’t agree with you more on “I don’t consider a nude woman to be weak, cheapened or automatically a victim”. Women’s bodies are well… bodies. Half of the world’s population have breasts and vagina, so I don’t see why so many people have a problem with it. Some people are also offended by numerous depictions of rape. To me, however, GRRM merely presents a sad reality that has existed since the ancient times until the present: rape has always been a WEAPON OF WAR. Believe me, many people still have to be aware of this fact. Take a look at what’s happening in Congo today. Also, during World War II, many women from my home country (Philippines) were kept as sex slaves during the Japanese occupation. I never felt that GRRM includes rape just for sadistic pleasure. Writing about a crime against humanity does not necessarily mean you condone it. I feel like making people more aware of these things can actually help prevent it from happening someday.
Regarding the Arya/Sansa dichotomy, I don’t believe that they are polar opposites (one is strong, one is weak). Rather, they are different manifestations of the same thing: how a woman fights to keep her identity and integrity in the face of adversity. Arya is outwardly strong, yet time and time again, she has to deny her gender and rely on her alter egos to survive. Sansa was stupid at first, but she has never felt the need to deny who she was. While she is not physically aggressive, she has her “armour of courtesy”, as Tyrion put it. People also underestimate her mental strength. She literally sleeps with the enemies at King’s Landing, but she survives.
Chai_latteQuote Reply
This seemed relevant to the discussion, sorry for the quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEqgWrJ6Hf4
FredQuote Reply
Katie,
To inform. On the contrary you are fitting into the stereotype by becoming emotionally argumentative over an internet comment. Only by knowing the ethereal flaws others place around us can we remove them and show ourselves to be the superior gender. If you would really like to do something about my comments, the next instance you witness a woman acting on gossip tell her to “Shape up, your making us all look bad.”
So you want to avoid my industry? Good luck not using anything that uses electrical components. You’ll be living in the Amish fashion in no time.
SSJWugWugQuote Reply
I don’t know about anyone else, but I have no interest in being the superior gender. Equal, not superior.
And a woman gossiping does not make all women look bad. Everyone gossips sometimes, and it’s not my place or yours to judge if you see someone gossiping.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
To be clear, you are judging (that gossip is OK). Some people who have thought more deeply about it (I believe they have anyway) think gossip and backbiting is a harmful thing whether it is true or lies.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Gossiping can be very useful, especially when related to bosses (they could be fired because of them).
andreaQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
hey! look what Rumpelstiltskin has to say: “love make us sick, haunts our dreams and destroys our day” ;)
andreaQuote Reply
Well said.
Also, SSJWugWug? I really don’t see us agreeing here…ever. I’m just going to leave it at that.
KatieQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
Nothing wrong with gossiping out of the workplace. There is a time and place. The problem is a gossiping tangent can be contagious and spread and cause some employees to focus more on things that can wait till after they get home. People can be seriously injured if they are distracted, and I cannot afford work environment hazards. So to limit distractions to a minimum I must attempt to keep everyone’s mind on the task at hand. This requires me to judge those who have a gossip addiction and have to get their fix at work.
SSJWugWugQuote Reply
I have another hypothesis about why you fire four times as many women as men. And I hope that as a fellow member of the female sex, you will seriously consider it, and do a little soul-searching.
You’ve stated that when a woman in the workplace does something wrong, you feel that it makes all women look bad. You take a female employee’s bad behaviour as a personal insult, and an insult to your entire gender.
As a woman in a management position, you therefore apply a zero-tolerance policy to female workers who make mistakes. You hold your female employees to a much higher standard than your male employees, because, damn it, you expect all women to be shining superior beacons of corporate success, like you. And you have no patience for females who make a mistake on the job, because you think they are making you, as a fellow woman, look bad. And therefore, you are four times as likely to fire a woman as a man.
Which is more likely: that you are the one who has a problem working with and managing other women, or that the entire female gender has a problem?
The only logical conclusion is that you need to sit down and do some serious thinking about the flaws in your management style, and work to become a better manager. I wish you luck, for your own sake, as well as your employees’.
LuanaQuote Reply
Luana,
Amen! Someone needed to to give her a dose of reality.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Does anyone have the link to the Sady Doyle ‘essay’? Because that would be great required reading for this thread.
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Luana,
Well said!
KatieQuote Reply
The piece:
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/26/enter-ye-myne-mystic-world-of-gayng-raype-what-the-r-stands-for-in-george-r-r-martin/
And a much better written rebuttal:
http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2011/08/29/305723/feminist-media-criticism-george-r-r-martins-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-and-that-sady-doyle-piece/
EvilPicnicQuote Reply
Katie,
Luana,
Little off topic here… but from what I have read… why are you even responding to wugwug?
she/he/it is more than likely a troll and you all seem to be giving it a good meal…
I base this on the prefix on the name SSJ, which means super saiyan. for those of you that dont know this comes from an anime DragonBallZ which seems to be a REPEATING THEME for trolls.
Sorry for the off topic but it had to be done, i firmly believe you all are getting strung along
Think first, argue later
DerigibleQuote Reply
Luana,
Hate to go against my own opinions, but wug² has made a circular argument. what ‘they’ said seems to be meant to get a negative emotional response, but by replying and being a woman, and giving them this response ‘they’ are looking for, you have successfully proven ‘their’ original points. troll or not it looks to me like you “were set up the bomb, all your base is belong to us”
/facepalm
for future, when debating (especially since you have hours to respond), figure out what your opponent wants so that you do not give it to them
Derigible,
agreed, dont feed the trolls they will just come back for more handouts instead of hunting naturally in the wild, eventually posing a risk to humans
Lord TobarQuote Reply
Lordlings & Ladies,
This feels a little like the Theatre of the Absurd; you kind of lost my (admittedly) ADD attentions after the second “After how many other casual deaths?” quote, to say nothing of the third.
(Part of me was like, “This wacky dude’s treating me like a baby!” And of course the other part was like, “As well he should! You’re but a child, FaBio!”)
Seriously, though, I am not in the habit of engaging in quote-by-quote, point-and-counterpoint debates. But you are amusing and articulate, so I will wade in, if not briefly. Generally speaking, I consider the line-by-line deconstruction of a post to be a common and oft-misused modus operandi (possibly originated by high school debate team rapscallions) intent on disproving salient points by switching focus away from one’s own teetering ground. I don’t usually go that route, as I find playing “quote the quote” tedious. So I urge you to feel special; this is a rare treat for you.
I do feel compelled to warn you that an inability to recognize figurative speech will significantly downgrade your final score.
But let’s go!
“Why do you conclude these are the first characters, minor or major, that I can “finally” feel a connection with? Is it because they are a few of the only non-heterosexual characters to appear in the series, and because I hold a critical view of their role in the novel, I must be only able to feel “connections” with characters who share my skin color and non-heterosexual orientation?”
I feel this way because you implied it in your response to Jeda. It feels like you were finally moved, after years of lurking, by Fury’s fantastic post and by the “perfumed boy debacle”—and not by much before. Feel free to clear that up.
“Do you yourself only feel connected to characters who share your skin color and sexual orientation? Even though I do not know you, I am going to graciously assume that the answer is no; that you possess the basic humanity to “connect” with many characters, white, brown, or otherwise.”
Correct! The answer is no! My favorites are Theon, Sansa, and Daenerys, and I share little in common with any of them, but I also feel connections to many others (more than a few are gay; more than that would be considered “non-white.” Martin has written upon a vast canvas for us; the choices are legion.
“’After how many other casual deaths?” Let’s imagine for a moment a heterosexual white male reader. Now, let’s imagine a non-heterosexual non-white male reader. They each sit down and read ASOIAF. Let’s recall the many, many white heterosexual characters (major and minor, foreground and background) who die in the novels, in a variety of gruesome ways.”
Not hard to imagine. It happened!
‘“After how many other casual deaths?” Please bear with me. Because now I am going to take the outrageous step of putting myself in someone else’s shoes, someone who does not share my race or sexual orientation. I am going to imagine that the white hetero male reader would see nothing untoward with the treatment of white male characters in ASOIAF. Yes, many die brutal deaths, but many others also survive to fight another day. And those who do die, die in such a variety of ways that it would be outright silly to single out one instance, and then take offense.”
First, it’s not very outrageous. I do it all the time. But yes, I agree with you. ‘Twould be silly.
“After how many other casual deaths?” Now let’s recall the select few non-white non-heterosexual characters who die in the novels, most of whom die in precisely one way, in exactly one scene, described in approximately one sentence. How many of them met casual deaths? Is the answer not, all of them? And if so, how might it make that same white hetero male reader feel to read a series in which, not some, not a few, but all of the white hetero male characters died? How might he feel if their deaths were given no weight by the author? How might he feel if their deaths barely registered to novel’s brown readers?”
That’s where you become batguano insane, my friend. It appears (correct me if I’m wrong) that you put a large part of the onus on race and sexual orientation. Which to me is hogwash. I don’t see x numbers of races or x numbers of homosexual characters killed; I see people killed—many offhandedly, some dramatically. Their sexual orientation means squat, as does their race, save for it possibly being a footnote—and only THEN when it’s one of (if not the only) reason for their murders.
I also saw the horrifying death of Oberyn Martell; there was nothing casual about it. One of the worst deaths in all the series. Top three. At least.
“And then I ask you to take that same outrageous step, and imagine how those scarce few deaths (the perfumed boys and Oberyn Martell to be precise) might read to one who is not white and heterosexual.”
If it were me? Exactly the same. If it were someone completely different than I am, say… some sort of weenie emo sensate (not that you are any of those—I hardly know you) desperately trying to find something to complain about, well… your mileage may vary.
FaB, I am not going to do this work for you. I believe that you possess the basic empathetic skills needed to put yourself in my shoes.
I do indeed. Thank you for not making me work. This was easy!
“Perhaps if you did you might respond differently to my criticism. Perhaps if you did, it would be harder to misread my personal opinion and taste as an example of “reader entitlement,” and the “biggest example since” .
It still feels like entitlement. But again, you can clear that up by agreeing that an author of fantasy fiction is not responsible for the horrors he writes being taken personally in any way, shape, or form.
If you say you don’t hold him responsible, I’ll believe you. But I doubt you’d backtrack. You did say: “I can say with absolute confidence that his disposable gays will never once be mentioned again in the novels.” By putting the onus on “disposable gays” you remove them from other forms of humanity—such as the thousands murdered by the Mountain during his rampage of the Riverlands. Because how many of them do you think will be mentioned again? I’m going to guess the same amount. And all you seem to care about are the people you identify with.
Rather than all the innocents. The proof is in the wording. But again… recant, and I’ll take you at your word.
Fire And BloodQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Fire And Blood,
Oi! You don’t like Victarion? Does the essence of awesomness defile your pretty complexion?
I don’t know what you mean when you say that we are clearly supposed to loathe him. Not only is Victarion a badass ruthless pirate that doesn’t give a damn, he wears full plate! On a boat! IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GDAMN OCEAN! Just wrecking people left and right, and he catches a blade with his gauntlet, thats right his hand, because he just doesn’t give a damn! That’s how he should be, because hes a mothersexin badass pirate bro.
How am I supposed to hate this guy? You say it was cruel to throw the perfumed boys overboard? What do you think was going to happen to them when they got to shore? That they would be set free in a meadow of flowers to skip into the sunset? Gdamnit, they we’re going to have a hard(in)ass life, possibly some will go on to star in westerosi snuff films and all kinds of freaky sex shit that we don’t want to know about.
What Victarion gave them harsh mercy, a quick death instead of long suffering.
and the maester, first he didn’t do a good job healing Victarion’s hand. He would have died from meningitis soon if the rescued red priest had not helped him. Then this dude comes crying rape to Victarion. I mean FFS would you want three battle ready ironmen or a maester who can’t heal worth a damn. What, was Victarion supposed to kill his ironmen to bring justice for the maester? Doubt it. He gave him a knife and told him how to solve it. Pretty much offering him survival of the fittest, and what did he do? cry more. So combined with being useless in battle or after battle healing and the fact that the crew thought him to be the source of bad juju. I think Victarion made the best decision. Additionally, he has to worry about mutinies so he needs to make the decision that the crew either supports or fears.
This also was a harsh mercy, had the maester not been thrown over, he would have probably been sodomized more and possibly Ghaddafied (knife to the butthole).
Victarion will probably be killed in the next books anyway because hes a MFbadass and thats how most of them go out. So until then get over it and stop whining, Victarion doesn’t care if your gay, brown, straight, woman, purple, grey, white, or if you have both genitalia and reproduce asexually he kills them all. All he wants is for them to be red or drowned.
Victarion/Arya are the most bad ass POV in the books. So if you don’t like him , skip the chapter he will probably kill more people that will offend and distract you.
VictarionFTWQuote Reply
An excellent point. Victor is big and strong.
Besides, what a wonderful imagination you have: Assuming people are going to be knifed to the butthole instead of getting a quick death is the only way to live.
Epic pinaforesQuote Reply
Catelyn:
1) I don’t have my book in front of me to look up the order, but she was a prime motivator in Ned’s moves, manipulating him into leaving the North out of memory of his brother if I recall correctly, when he could have stayed safe at home, all of which was part of an elaborate plan of Littlefinger’s. Dupe.
2) Fell into hysteria followed by a fugue because her son fell. Normal would be concern, but this was abnormal in her abandonment of her other children.
3) Trusted Littlefinger in Kings Landing.
4) Didn’t stay to support Ned.
5) Captured Tyrion, Catelyn grabs the moment to take a hostage of an incredibly powerful man and war leader. A sensible approach would have been to set things up so that later, when she had a better lead, Tyrion would come to her.
6) Thought she was clever taking Tyrion and thought she was clever throwing off the pursuers, but she makes for the Ayrie, which has savages roaming the lands and her traveling group is totally unprepared for it.
7) Has always misunderstood Lyssa’s character, which is only worse now.
I could go on, but I’m trying to stick only to things in the first book.
Karstark took an emotional path, but only after battle and legal wrangling with his lord failed him. He also took a calculated risk that kinship and the need for his troops would stay Robb’s hand. Catelyn goes directly to the emotions without pausing for thought.
Loras is a very young man. He compares/contrasts with Sansa or Robb. I’m looking a women of middle years. We only get three in the first book. He’s also a bit problematic as you could put together the behavior of the gay couple to indicate a play to an overly emotional/foppish stereotype. I think that’s one of the reasons I hope that the Blackfish is really gay.
Tyrion very rarely reacts emotionally. So he’s really not a good comparison. He contrasts with Cersei in pride, but he has more of the goods to back that up. I’m really not sure what you’re getting at with one of his rare less calculated actions.
Robert is an awful king. I’d say he’s out of his depth in politics, but honestly, he doesn’t really even try.
The thing with all the men on your list is that there are contrasts: Ned, the Blackfish, Robb, Littlefinger. But there are no female contrasts. Maege briefly plays the contrast with Catelyn in book 2, but we don’t follow the Mormont women. And in book two you have Brienne. Who is more sensible, but her actions are always directed by service to someone. But in book 1, there’s no one. Its a bit of a sad commentary on middle aged women and mothering that they don’t know how to make good decisions.
World DancerQuote Reply
Actually, Catelyn wanted Ned to go to King’s Landing as soon as Robert asked him. Her opinion was set prior to the receipt of Lysa’s letter. Lysa’s letter convinced Ned to go – Catelyn already knew it was Ned’s duty to serve the king and had told Ned as much.
It’s also worth noting that once Catelyn saw how dangerous the situation had become (after Bran’s fall) she advised Ned to stay.
This wasn’t very fun to read but since I’ve never had a child who was almost killed I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt here. Besides, it’s a good thing she did it since otherwise Bran really would have been killed. :)
Also it’s best to avoid using the term “hysteria,” it is a fundamentally sexist term (you may not know that, just trying to inform not blame).
If we think characters are idiots for allying with LF than everyone is an idiot. The only person who avoids working with him seems to be Varys. Even Tyrion works with LF. And of all these “smart” people that trust Littlefinger, Catelyn had the most legitimate reasons (they really were close as children, how can she know how twisted he has become?)
You mean in King’s Landing? From an outside perspective there was no Legitimate reason for Catelyn to be in King’s Landing. Hence, if Catelyn was found out to be in KL by the Lannisters (or Tyrion on the way back) and they really had tried to kill Bran, they would instantly know that the Starks were on to them, and would have made life very difficult for Ned (possibly moving against Ned and the girls immediately). She had to remain hidden.
She tried to avoid being seen and didn’t want to take Tyrion any more than he wanted to be taken. After Cat was seen, Tyrion (if actually involved in the conspiracy) would be in a good position to put Ned/Arya/Sansa in real danger once he got back to KL.
And why on earth would Tyrion come to her later if he was involved in the conspiracy to kill Bran??? O_o He’d head straight for KL and the protection of his family.
No, she didn’t think she was clever. She wished she’d never been forced to take Tyrion, regrets it almost immediately, and foir the record Tyrion not Cat decribes her idea to go to the Eyrie as “clever.”
They haven’t seen each other or communicated more than once or twice since Lysa was forced to have an abortion and then was sold off like chattel. And actually, Cat describes Lysa correctly (a vulnerable, weak person who needs someone to love her, but has never had that need met). She doesn’t know about Littlefinger because her father kept it a secret.
Tyrion is extremely emotionally volatile, You only need to read the last half of asos and adwd to see that.
userjQuote Reply
okay, it’s late and I’ve no ideas at all, so all I can do is to say how much i love some of the stuff yall wrote.
this was..well, epic. And also sooo true
andrea,
this made my day
Fire And Blood,
and this.. this is one of the bestest comments I’ve ever read.
VictarionFTW,
this was fun. I’m not a Vic fan, although I enjoy his bits, but this comment made me literally laugh out loud
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
There is a thing that GRRM keeps saying that really bothers me. He calls his female fans, and sci-fi/fantasy loving women in general, “boys with boobs”. He seems to think this is a great complement. It implies that in order to be accepted and good in the spec fic club, you need to be like a boy, as if that’s what we aspire to by loving fantasy. Leave your femininity at home please! Only emulating men is welcome here! So much wrong with that, so much androcentrism.
Yes, this has bothered me too! He never shows a genuine lesbian relationship. Dany/Irri and Cersei/Merryweather are construed for the male gaze. They are “curious women”, there to titillate the male audience, experimenting. I’d want to see two women loving one another, not there to give male readers a thrill, but there for themselves. To me this seems unauthentic. Though we never get Renly/Loras together in a scene, we do know at least that their love runs deep and they are there for each other.
Right, whatever a woman does it represents all women, and what men do it that’s individuals. I got it. Since when did this turn into your anti-gossip soapbox?
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
Lordings and ladies is not batguano, but awsome. Could you please not use abelist language?
You claim to be blind to these things, but no one is blind. It doesn’t help the conversation and it adds nothing. You need to see race, sexual orientation, sex etc. in order to discuss these things and identify systematic problems. Your blindness statement doesn’t make you look progressive, in fact the opposite.
The fact of the matter is that straight white men are only a small segment of the population, but they are the majority of representations in media and entertainment. There’s one of any flavour to suit your needs.
That is why when someone who isn’t like that comes around, it is more important. They are the only ones for people to identify with. They aren’t given any other portrayals. The perfumed boys are done away with in sentence, in book with how many queer men of colour? To further the plot of a straight white man, amoungst so many others of his kind. They are used as props and a shallow device.
That means squat to you? That’s privilege. You’re not counting the number of queer characters? That’s privilege. Not caring is a privilege.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
Please correct me if I am wrong but I’ve only seen the “boys with breasts” comment made once and I took it to be merely a crass response to she who shall not be namedat the NYTimes and her dismissal of the show and genre in her non-review. If this is a repetitive thing for Martin then I’m gonna have quite a bit to think about in regards to authorial intent, etc.
Your other points, I’m inclined to agree with…
fywinterfellQuote Reply
Fire And Blood,
Thanks for responding. Let’s see if I can clarify.
It feels like you were finally moved, after years of lurking, by Fury’s fantastic post and by the “perfumed boy debacle”—and not by much before. Feel free to clear that up.
So I’ll start there. Yes. I have long visited this site to check on the general status of GoT production. Rarely, if ever have I dipped into the comments section. I love the books and the show, and I love talking about both, but I don’t really go for the production details as much. Just me.
If you read my earlier posts, you’ll know that I have firm opinions on the topic at hand: misogyny. I believe that sexism is a central problem in our communities and that dialogues about it are, while unfortunately rarer than they need to be, of vital importance. I was surprised and delighted to see it being discussed here, with mostly respect and sincerity, and I am excited to be a part of it. So you are correct in feeling like I am participating in a discussion that interests me, where previous ones have not.
Along with Fury’s great post, you feel as though I was also motivated to join the discussion, as I have never done before, by the “perfumed boys debacle” (lol, since we seem to be throwing that one around a lot, going forward I’ll abbreviate it as PBD). When you responded to my post about the PBD, I had written twelve posts: nine addressing gender in ASOIAF, one addressing the PBD, and one addressing both. I believe my interests in joining the discussion are clear. Moving on.
That’s where you become batguano insane, my friend. It appears (correct me if I’m wrong) that you put a large part of the onus on race and sexual orientation. Which to me is hogwash. I don’t see x numbers of races or x numbers of homosexual characters killed; I see people killed—many offhandedly, some dramatically. Their sexual orientation means squat, as does their race, save for it possibly being a footnote
Like many who face discrimination, often in the form of violence, based on their race or sexual orientation (or gender), I too sometimes find myself contemplating race or sexual orientation (or gender). With that as a starting point, it comes as no surprise that you “don’t see x numbers of races or x numbers of homosexual characters killed; [you] see people killed.” Some other batshit thinkers like to call that the transparency phenomenon. Short definition: “There is a profound cognitive dimension to the material and social privilege that attaches to whiteness in this society, in that the white person has an everyday option not to think of himself/herself in racial terms at all.” In other words, “To be white is not to think about it.”
Although that applies to whiteness, the same can be said about maleness or heterosexuality. To be a man is not to think about it. To be straight is not to think about it.
Speaking as a man, there are many things that I do not have to think about because I a man. I can walk alone in public without fear of being sexually violated. Prospective employers will never ask me if I plan on having children. I don’t have to worry about whether I am being paid less than my female colleagues. When I get dressed in the morning, I do not worry about whether my clothing “invites” sexual harassment. I can express outrage without being perceived as irrational, emotional, insane, or too “sensitive” (except if I am expressing outrage about race). My reputation does not decrease with each additional person with whom I have sex. I can dominate a conversation without being perceived as domineering (unless the discussion is about race). If I kiss someone on a first date, I do not have to worry about whether I have provided that person with a defense to rape. Men I know do not consistently address me by pet names nor do strangers employ such terms to refer to or greet me.*
Long winded, I know. And what the hell is my point?!
My point is that as a man, I have the everyday option to not think of myself in gender terms. I do not have that privilege in regards to race or sexual orientation. My gender can mean jack squat to me; it can be as insignificant as a footnote. A footnote I have the option to read, if I choose to, but one I can just as easily skip past without missing a thing. (And yes FaB, I recognize figurative speech. I just happen to like using yours.) Not so for race or sexual orientation.
I say all this to emphasize that the topic at hand, misogyny, is quite inseparable from that other topic floating around the earlier parts of this thread: privilege. I think that the latter is harder to talk about. It’s easier to displace misogyny or racism as someone else’s problem: “Yeah lots of people are misogynists/racists, but I’m not one of them.” Harder to do that with privilege. The two are NOT the same. Someone with white/male/heterosexual privilege is not always racist/sexist/homophobic. Still, one cannot exist without the other.
There’s a reason why white readers can read without registering race. There’s a reason why male readers can read without registering gender. The same reason goes for straight readers and heterosexuality.
So. Back to the beginning. My motivations for posting what I did concerning the PBD. Well let me ask you. Which do you honestly think is more likely: that a self proclaimed fan of ASOIAF – one who has read all five thousand pages and watched all ten episodes – only cares about the characters featured in one sentence of one page of one book? Or that that same fan, who expresses distaste over one sentence in one chapter in one book, cares about a wide variety of characters (maybe even as many as you!).
FaB, as I see it, the only way you can leap to the first conclusion is if you believed that the only characters I care about are the non-white, non-heterosexual ones. When I asked you why believed that I feel no connection with other characters, you replied “I feel this way because you implied it in your response to Jeda.” As you say, this is the first time I’ve posted on these boards. You seriously know enough about my opinion on the book to make that call? To sense such an implication?
Please.
It still feels like entitlement. But again, you can clear that up by agreeing that an author of fantasy fiction is not responsible for the horrors he writes being taken personally in any way, shape, or form.
Every author is accountable for what she/he writes. I have the right to criticize an author if she/he writes something that I find ill-thought out. And that’s my objection to the scene; if you went back and read my comments, you’d see that. It’s the thoughtlessness of it… AND NOT VICTARION’S THOUGHTLESSNESS. VICTARION IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER PEOPLE, HE DOES NOT WRITE HIS OWN CHAPTERS. JEEZ. GRRM’s thoughtlessness, which is endemic to the characterization of “others” (women, people of color, non-heteros) within much of the genre of fantasy. GRRM’s violence cannot be said to be “democratic” when whites are slayed in a variety of wonderfully gruesome ways while some survive to live a variety of gruesome lives (I like gruesome, as it happens) and colored homos die in a single sentence. As I said (my opinion, I have zero sway over anything anyone writes), leave us the hell out of it unless you want to expend some brain power considering how such a “cameo” would make some of your non-white non-straight readers feel.
As it happens, I have no expectation that GRRM thinks of us at all. The ones who do are typically not white and not straight. (See Samuel Delany)
Sorry to all for hijacking the thread. Maybe we can get back to women in Thrones.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
* Not my examples. Pulled from Devon W. Carbado’s essay “Privilege.” It’s a good one, if any are interested.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Martin’s “boys with breasts” remark was a joke. He said, responding to Bellafante, “if I am writing “boy fiction,” who are all those boys with breasts who keep turning up by the hundreds at my signings and readings?”
It was a crack about the fact that only “boys” read his books, according to her, and yet here we women are. I don’t think it’s fair to use that joke at all as argument for Martin being sexist. Certainly, people could argue that George’s failure to depict a lesbian relationship and some other facts indicate an insensitivity to female or homosexual populations.
I don’t think Victarion’s perfumed boys incident means that George is anti-gay. It means that Victarion is, to put it succintly, a huge asshole. We are not supposed to like him. His behavior is repulsive. If people think he is a super guy despite this incident, well that says more about them than it does about GRRM.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Thank you, thank you, Evil Picnic for the links to those two articles – really an interesting read and the comments sections for both were nearly as entertaining (and depressing at times) as this thread! Everyone still involved in this thread should read them if they haven’t already!
KQuote Reply
Fury, first, thanks for starting this topic and writing an interesting introductory essay!
I don’t think anyone here has argued that Victarion’s treatment of the perfumed boys means GRRM is anti-gay. As Ladies and Lordlings explained in his last post, you can, however, make a good case for GRRM being thoughtless in the way he handled it, and see how he’s exposed his white male heterosexual privilege.
LuanaQuote Reply
that hurt!;) I´m not particularly a naive person, maybe I’m too patient or is just that certainty scares me a bit , but it doesn´t matter. The thing is I’m not so certain as you are about G. Martin´s thoughtlessness, lets say I hope he has something to say (unlikely but…who knows?).
What I want to say is that Deleuze said interesting things about privilege (and minorities) too. In Claire Parnet´s interview (“Deleuze from A to Z”) Deleuze talks about what it means to be left-wing (do you say left-wing and right-wing, right?) but it can be applied to other minorities.
I have this interview… in Spanish and I can´t translate it because I´m a complete disaster.
Read it (this fragment is in letter “L”), I think you’ll like it. And if you read some Spanish, my name has a link to a blog on Deleuze where you could find almost the whole interview.
andreaQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
Fine but then you cannot only cherrypick these systematic problems. It’s important to look at the broader picture. In that world, there is no human rights and many lives have no value. Based on that, if human life has no value, the rest are details. Why would sexism or race even come to mind in this world when your life as a human being is not valued (except by your family and those you protect if you’re in power)? As I’ve said before, the killing of the butcher’s boy sets the tone for the rest of the novel. If even a kid’s life has no value, isn’t that cherry picking to worry about specific rights of others? It just doesn’t sound right, that’s why I agree with FaB’s comment “I only see people”, it’s not blind, it’s actually the wise and moral approach. And it doesn’t make that line of thought non-progressive as this term wouldn’t even apply in that world. Judging Westeros by these standards is anachronic, flawed. And it is even if you want to trace it back to the fact that it was a patriarchal system, simply because rich women had far more power and rights than most of the population that you can’t simply conveniently ignore. The entire system is based on survival, the rest is irrelevant, it’s futile to me to try to correct and identify with the details (I’m speaking relatively of course, I know they shouldn’t morally be details, but they factually are in Westeros) in the structure of that system when even the foundation doesn’t allow it. That’s probably where we deverge, we’re not saying it shouldn’t be considered morally, we’re saying it’s wrong to ignore some deaths so that you can focus on some issues. And if you can give some deaths more values than others, that’s entitlement. You say it’s privilege not to count the deaths of queer characters? I say it’s privilege to feel entitled to even count them. It’s immoral to make a distinction in the deaths, for whatever reason.
JedaQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
I found the lines in question: “In her holds were twenty perfumed boys and four score girls destined for the pleasure houses of Lys… The girls he divided amongst his captains. ‘The Lyseni would have made whores of you,’ he told them, ‘but we have saved you. Now you need only serve one man instead of many. Those who please their captains may be taken as salt wives, an honorable station.’ The perfumed boys he wrapped in chains and threw into the sea. They were unnatural creatures, and the ship smelled better once cleansed of their presence.”
I think it’s exploitative rather than anti-gay. It occurs so that we can say, “Gee, what a prick.” Just like how the random episodes of lesbianism are there just to titillate.
George is no dummy. He’s aware that we’re living in a time where in the media, girls-kissing-girls are hawt, and where the murders of young gay men by people who think them “unnatural creatures” are mostly condemned by the nightly news anchor. He knows we watch these stories on tv and think, “God, that’s just horrible,” and he hopes that we’ll have the same response when Victarion tosses them over the side.
I like when writers treat the struggles and tragedies of oppressed communities respectfully, rather than exploiting them as a shortcut to make their readers squirm.
XenkanMonk,
Because of all the dudes working on the show, they might beef up the Loras/Renly relationship. I’d rather they get some female writers if they wanted to tackle an authentic lesbian relationship, and not a Cersei/Merryweather Danny/Irri style boner-vehicle.
Whatever happens, at least we won’t be subjected to Martin’s Qartheen boob dress. Talk about male gaze.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
As others have said, countless people are murdered in offhand and saddening ways. People cry about the execution of Lady the direwolf more than they do about the murder of Mycah, the butcher’s boy. If the murder of the perfumed boys is exploitative, than so is the murder of Mycah and about a hundred other characters in the series. Yes, we are supposed to feel something when people are killed.
The series could use more gay characters, I think. I hope that Xaro is gay in the TV series as in the books. Changing that detail would really bother me. As for the ladies’ gay sex in the books, Cersei/Taena is an exploration of Cersei’s gender angst and power issues, and does not read sexy at all. Irri/Dany is the one that actually does feel like pandering to straight guys, to me.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
andrea,
Lol. Sorry about the CAPITAL RAGE.
Thanks for the link. Mi español no es bueno, but google translate helped me with most of L.
We say left and right here. Most say liberal or conservative… but liberal and conservative mean different things in Latin America and Europe, right?
Westeros does not exist in a vacuum. If you look only at Westeros and it’s attendant rules and cultures than yes, you’re probably right. But if you take a step back and look at Westeros within the context of the society we live in today, which is the context that the author is writing within, then I think it might start to make more sense.
And within your logic, we shouldn’t even be speaking about this at all. Within your logic, we should make no distinction between man and woman, make no moral judgements about their representations in the series, and have no discussion about anything existing outside of the internal logic of Westeros. An internal logic, I might add, created by a heterosexual white male.
So, no conversation. Lol. How suspiciously convenient for those who are not on the “wrong” side of the race, gender, or sexuality line.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
yes! quite the opposite… I mean, liberal or conservative is the same thing here but they don´t call themselves like that. On the left side you can also find center-left (or moderate left but my province (state for you) is the only one with a left government in the whole country.
I hope you enjoyed it (the “L”), I like the idea of representing it as a mailing address. It´s a simple idea.
andreaQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
If the murder of the perfumed boys is exploitative, than so is the murder of Mycah and about a hundred other characters in the series.
That’s where we disagree, because when I read the books, I can’t take a colorblind approach. Mycah and a hundred other white characters die in the series. Hundreds survive. Twenty-one queer people of color die in the series. None survive.
Males have the privilege to see the many episodes of sex in the books as just sex, with the gender of the people involved and their gendered roles as irrelevant. They’re just people fucking. To a woman, maybe one or two of those scenes might be a little suspect. I don’t know.
I do know that, as a queer person of color reading the series, when there are very few of us included to begin with, and when those very few die all at once… I can’t see the equivalency that you do. Because I can’t ignore the fact that they are not white.
Also, they may not have all been people of color. I assume that some, or most, were because they are called “perfumed boys,” which recalls the famed male concubines from Sidama in what is now Ethiopia, who were kept by Ottoman sultans, royalty, and other men of means; they too were euphemistically called “perfumed boys.” And because the woman kept by Victarion from the group is described as the “dusky” woman.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
First aren’t you making an assumption here? Maybe not, maybe GRRM once said something along these lines, so if he did then fine, by all means point them out to me if he did.
I’m obviously not saying we shouldn’t speak about it at all, you know that. What I’m saying is we should speak about it in the right context:
“Within your logic, we should make no distinction between man and woman, make no moral judgements about their representations in the series”
Well, when it comes to the tragedy of their death, of course we shouldn’t make any distinction.
And don’t you think it’s a little easy, a little shallow to judge GRRM’s work under the lense that he’s an hetero sexual white male?
“An internal logic, I might add, created by a heterosexual white male.”
I mean, aren’t you the one judging someone ‘s choices and intentions based on his sexuality and race here?
The whole point of my post is that “I only see people” is the right statement, that you couldn’t cherry pick deaths over others, which you are undeniably doing by disagreeing with this statement. Giving a higher victim status to deads because of their gender or race, by making assumptions about Martin’s choice based again on his gender and race, that’s entitlement.
JedaQuote Reply
Earlier I posted about Cersei specifically, here I’m going to post about the topic at large.
As before, I’m going to be discussing all 5 books, so this is my spoiler tag
One thing I see popping up here repeatedly is the theme of just what constitutes a feminist archetype, what is misogyny etc.
An earlier poster made the comment that Asha is the only character who tried to make a powerplay without using her … lady parts as a weapon and that she is a good example as failing b/c she’s a woman. While there certainly were elements of her gender as a rejection of her ability to rule “A woman has never ruled the Ironborn”, lets not forget that Victarion – arguably an incredibly stereotypical masculine character who banked on said masculinity to win the Moot – lost as well. Indeed, Asha was doing well – even better than Damphair would have believed – before she was cut off. The true winner used guile and mystique. Therefore, she didn’t lose because she was a woman (in this instance).
That got specific quick, and as I’m typing I realize I can’t write a brief post and still fully communicate my message, but let me try to summarize what the above is attempting to address:
First, just because someone who is a woman fails doesn’t mean they failed because they are a woman – stop taking an easy excuse (lots of men fail in these books and in life and that doesn’t mean GRRM is anti-male).
Second, in presenting a male-dominated world, GRRM isn’t being explicitly, implicitly or tacitly anti-feminist. He is presenting a story that takes place in a male-dominated world. If he were to say it’s the best world ever because its male dominated that’d be a horse of a different color. However, his world is a decidedly shitty place to live. If one were trying to read between the lines, perhaps you might try to infer that he’s saying its shitty because there’s less equality (i’m not asserting this as my view point necessarily, but merely presenting it as an opposing interpretation).
Third, in a world dominated by physical violence as a means of obtaining, expanding and consolidating power (“Strong Arms and Sharp Steel rule this world” – the Hound), it is inherently going to be more difficult for women to gain a power base playing by the same rules. I was a Varsity Wrestler in high school and a boxer in college. weight and strength usually translate into victories, and, purely based upon statistical trends, on average women are generally smaller and weaker than men in a purely physical sense. Therefore, the occasional female-fighter like Brienne is seen as abnormal because she eschews the typical gender role assigned to women based upon statistically significant competitive advantages between males and females. Put another way, in order to compete with men physically, women need to resemble them physically (unless there is some compensating skill/experience/speed/equipment or exploitable intelligence gap). Again, as a wrestler I can’t begin to tell you how much of a difference even 5 lbs make in a match – weight classes exist for a reason!
In summary, I think there is a good bit of examiner’s bias. I’m not saying that there isn’t intentional misogyny in ASOIAF – there is (though that doesn’t mean GRRM is misogynist himself!). I guess I’m Davos in this argument vs. a couple of Melisandres – I’m saying someone/thing is grey vs. an onion with a bit of rot is still a rotten onion – but I’m continually surprised by how up in arms some people get about the mistreatment of one group of people while ignoring mistreatment of others. to quote an above poster, “everyone is treated badly, which is a type of equality”. Well said indeed.
Nights KingQuote Reply
Jeda,
First aren’t you making an assumption here? Maybe not, maybe GRRM once said something along these lines, so if he did then fine, by all means point them out to me if he did.
I mean that George R.R. Martin is an American male born in Bayonne, NJ and who presumably possesses a Social Security #. He’s an actual human being living in the same country I do and he writes books. That’s what I meant by “the context that the author is writing within.” Like, America.
And don’t you think it’s a little easy, a little shallow to judge GRRM’s work under the lens that he’s an hetero sexual white male?
No I do not think it is shallow to point out that a writer who I believe often represents people of color, queers, and women in problematic ways, is neither a person of color or a woman or a queer. GRRM deals quite explicitly in his novels with race. Qartheen are “milk men.” Lysenes have blond hair and blue eyes. Dothraki have “almond eyes” and brown skin. Sandy, salty, and stony Dornish, each distinguished by their phenotypes. Summer Islanders are “as black as coal.” For a writer who invokes race with some consistency, very little has been said about it.
And while the writer himself writes explicitly about race, for a reader to critically discuss his representation of it is shallow? Why? Compared to what? We seem to be comfortable looking at his work through a variety of lenses, including those of television, movies, history, other fantasy, gender, and so on and so on.
“An internal logic, I might add, created by a heterosexual white male.”
I mean, aren’t you the one judging someone ‘s choices and intentions based on his sexuality and race here?
I’m openly acknowledging his identity. Something many here seem reluctant to do. Yet when discussions arise about stories written by women or people of color or queers, suddenly it becomes just peachy to judge the creator’s intentions based on their identity. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone say, “She just wrote that scene because she’s a woman,” or “S/he just included that romance because s/he’s gay,” or “S/he just put that actor in there because she’s black.”
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
And if some would deny the significance of skin color in fantasy and the fandom, I would urge you to read some of the more colorful comments posted on this website in response to the casting of Nonso Anozie as Xaro Xhoan Daxos. A small change to the books, but such a big response? I wonder.
Yes, race really should be quite insignificant. In reality, it is not.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
I am in no way trying to attack you, I just want to see to what extent you are stretching this line of thinking but: Are you trying to assert that because GRRM is a White, Heterosexual American Male that he is incapable of writing about people who do not conform to his background? Are you asserting that he has no place doing so? Are you asserting that making an attempt to tell the stories of these non-conforming characters he is engaging in a form of exploitation? Are you asserting that if he tells their stories and their stories happen to be less than ideal that he is implicitly “anti-group x”?
George has a myriad of characters coming in across the entire spectrum. Therefore he inherently is portraying opposing view-points while simultaneously doing a pretty damn good job of not making any one view-point “more right” than the other. I just have a hard time heaping criticism at him for espousing a certain view-point where I think we’d all have a difficult time accurately describing his world-view. For example, I couldn’t tell you if George was an atheist, christian, jew etc. based on his portrayal of a religion closely resembling medieval Christianity, a pagan/shamanistic religion and several others of various forms.
As I said before, but will say more clearly here, I believe there’s a fair bit of examiner’s bias. If you write 5000+ pages fully realizing a world and a host of characters, i could read his books trying to validate any viewpoint I wanted and probably find enough supporting evidence to make a decent case.
Nights KingQuote Reply
I can tell he’s from Jersey and that he read too many Marvel comics as a kid.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Are you trying to assert that because GRRM is a White, Heterosexual American Male that he is incapable of writing about people who do not conform to his background? Are you asserting that he has no place doing so? Are you asserting that making an attempt to tell the stories of these non-conforming characters he is engaging in a form of exploitation? Are you asserting that if he tells their stories and their stories happen to be less than ideal that he is implicitly “anti-group x”?
No. I am asserting that as a white heterosexual American male, he is coming from a particular standpoint. Just as I, as a black homosexual American male, come from a particular standpoint. Like most societies, ours is stratified by race, ethnicity, class, gender, sexuality, etc. GRRM is just as capable of writing about people who do not conform to his background as anyone, but like anyone, his thought process comes from a particular social situation.
Each and every one of us is socially situated. I do not believe that the creative process washes our hands clean of our culture, our past, our community. I do not believe that a work of art can emerge unmarked by the fingerprints of its creator. That said, I do not believe that an author, or anyone else for that matter, who comes from the most privileged social position, (white heterosexual and male) can adequately represent “others” (people of color, queers, women) without first actively interrogating her/his own privileged position and the effect that that privilege might have on his/her writings.
The most common manifestation of not doing this within the fantasy genre is the erasure of “others” entirely. A whole world is created, and every kingdom, principality, and village is populated by whites. The protagonist is, more often than not, a straight white male. When people of color especially are represented, they are typically written in a stereotyped manner or killed off quickly. Or areas that are designated as populated by non-whites are shown on the map and alluded to in dialogue, but never actually “seen” in the text.
GRRM does a better job than most avoiding erasure. Nonetheless AGOT, written in 1995 – not exactly the nadir of enlightened representations of people of color by white producers/writers – falls into many of the same pitfalls of its predecessors. An outline of these would take much more time and thought than I have right now, but it is something that I have long wanted to do.
I think I’ve taken on too much here. I’m jumping around from race to gender to sexuality, and my arguments are getting a bit watered down in the process. Honestly, both race and sexuality would be better discussed in a different thread. Any more contributions from me will focus on gender, perhaps veering into sexuality where the two intersect in the novels and tv show.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
I enjoyed watching you fend off other and strengthen your arguments on a need-to-know basis. Clearly you have strong opinions based on your reading and the show, but you are sort of formulating them here because the aroma of blind fandom is… can be nauseating?
You show why you believe that, in one way of putting it, GRRM doesn’t care about being ‘politically correct’ about gender, sex orientation, and race issues, and it shows to those who notice.
But what I miss seeing is the point of your arguments. The thing I am most curious about is why is it okay for you to be a fan of this material?
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
I love that man. I didn’t see it yet this week.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
edit:
Like most societies, ours is stratified by race, ethnicity, class, gender, sexuality, etc. GRRM is just as capable of writing about people who do not conform to his background as anyone, but like anyone, his thought process comes from a particular social situation. And every social situation has traditional – and entrenched – ways, of seeing and relating to those in other social situations.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
andrea,
I also like how the boxing coach in Rocky said it: “Women weaken legs!”
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
I grew up reading fantasy. I love what GRRM did with the classical tropes that for a long time defined the genre. Also the battle sequences are bomb and I totally did not suspect all this shit that went down towards the end of AGOT. I suppose I like him for the same reasons most do.
At the same time, I have my criticisms of his books and the hbo adaptation. ASOIAF is not perfect and I do not pretend that it is. I consider myself a fan, but goddamnit, I hated ADWD and I’m not going to pretend like I like his representations of people of color and queers. He does a better job with women but, as you can see from the existence of this thread, there are still problems.
Perhaps my objections seem overwhelming because they’re so (apparently) controversial that I have to defend them left and right, with each defense exposing more and more of my distaste for those aspects of the books.
However, they are by no means the only aspects of the books. Hope that clears the air. Good question too, thanks for asking it.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
Sí, sí! Robert Carlyle you mean, no? he´s great! the voices he makes, the smiles… the eyes. He´s fantastic. Last night when I watched this episode I remembered instantly what you wrote. He said it perfectly.
“Women weaken legs!” jijijiji men too! worst: men make mush of our brains! papilla!
andreaQuote Reply
Maybe ;)
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
It’s interesting to note that because some fans seem so vocal about how SoIaF is to be defended as a code of modern morality, it forces others to appear as if they are attacking the books, grrm, the show; everything. It’s good to hear that someone as discriminating as yourself is a fan–it speaks volumes about the good stuff.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Absolutely! I have seen him in some great roles but he’s just amazing…pure magic… in Once Upon a Time.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
I´m sorry, I made a huge mistake. The letter (Deleuze interview) is “G” for “gauche” wich is “left” in french. I don´t know what happen to me. Read it again? Sorry.
andreaQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
Ken Loach´s Riff Raff! first time I saw him.
andreaQuote Reply
I’m not saying the books are perfect. I’m saying three things really:
1. Just because a single person may have represented a race, gender, sexuality etc. as exploited, amoral or anything else doesn’t mean he / she thinks that is right/appropriate – GRRM is first and foremost a storyteller. He makes decisions based on what he thinks best serves the purposes of the story at large, and is not responsible for presenting every race, gender, sexuality etc. as perfect, equal, moral or what have you.
2. Even if you reject point 1, you have to take things in context. Yes, one context is the time/place/background of the author, but another – and perhaps more appropriate context – is the setting within the work itself. As with the perfumed boys, is Martin asserting that the boys are not natural? No. He’s saying Victarion thinks they are not. Now, we can judge Victarion in the context of a ~2009 America audience, or we can simply take that as proof that the Iron Born don’t approve of male-male relationships whereas Qarth or other non-Westerosi cultures might within THE STORY. Do I, as a White Heterosexual Male think that drowning a whole bunch of people is ok because they’re male prostitutes destined to entertain other men? No. Do I think Victarion is a bad guy? Yes, I thought so before I read that passage, and I believe so even more now. Do I think that GRRM is a bad/prejudiced person now that he had a fictional character kill off other fictional characters in a way that is prejudiced? No. I don’t see how that connection gets made.
3. Really just an extension of points 1 and 2, I think people are too quick to judge here. First and foremost we are looking at a fictionalized world. Now I’m not saying it has no connection to our own. On the contrary, GRRM has said that he is very much inspired by our own history. Is GRRM’s responsibility to present all races/genders/sexualities etc. as equally strong? No, I really don’t think so. Just because there is a weak female character (Cersei) doesn’t mean that all female’s are weak (e.g. Danny). Just because there is a noble male character (Ned) doesn’t mean he’s perfect (he was noble to a fault) nor does it mean all men are (Gregore).
My concluding thought is this: People are PEOPLE. No matter your background you have redeeming qualities and you have faults. Martin has shown us a world wholly apart from our own, and yet altogether similar. By showing a single individual character and their prejudices, he is still showing us a single character. No two people are the same, no matter their similarities: Arya is a tomboy and Sansa is a “princess” and yet they have essentially the exact same background. It is altogether unfair to hold GRRM to a paradigm of creating a morally perfect and unexploited world when he has explicitly stated that he’s trying to create essentially an End of Days type situation here. To say that Martin is unfair to his fictionally ethnic characters because he is a factually white person is holding him to a grading rubric that few people do – or should – hold him to. In the end, we have seen the show on the other foot as well. In (White, European) Westeros, women, homosexuals and ethnic minorities are repressed. I grant you that. In Essos the Westerosi are regarded as barbarians. Does that mean that Martin thinks they are? Does he think both societies are? Or is he demonstrating that cultural divides lead to prejudices?
Nights KingQuote Reply
EvilPicnic,
:) That was hilarious.
Nah, I don’t think Rosenberg really refuted the core of Doyle’s objections concerning the sexual violence. Plus, a large part of Doyle’s piece addressed race, which Rosenberg notably did not address in her refutation. Both good reads though, thanks for sharing EvilPicnic.
andrea,
No problem, I’ll read it again.
Epic knows nothing,
I had my first suspicions in aSoS. He seemed just a little too familiar with the smell of raw sewage to be from anywhere else.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Nights King,
Even if you reject point 1, you have to take things in context. Yes, one context is the time/place/background of the author, but another – and perhaps more appropriate context – is the setting within the work itself.
You hit the nail on the head with that one. I think that’s the core of our disagreement. I believe that the most appropriate way to critique Martin’s representations of “others” is by placing both the author and his works within the wider context of a literary tradition that has long been hostile to representing “others” in any but the most narrow and self-serving of ways.
You believe that the most appropriate way to analyze these same representations is by exploring the author’s intent through a study of the world he has created – Westeros – and the ways in which its cultures interact, as seen through the eyes of multiple and diverse characters, who may or may not have moral agendas acceptable to the modern reader.
You make some good points, and you definitely have a valid approach. But because we’re coming at the same thing from two opposite directions, I’m not sure how much more I can say. I think we can agree to disagree.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
“He’s an actual human being living in the same country I do and he writes books. That’s what I meant by “the context that the author is writing within.” Like, America”
Right, so this is where we deverge. You come from the point that the context should be considering this day and age because these will be his readers, while to me the context of the work itself and the world he depicts is far more important in order not to infringe on the story, as the story should come first.
I’m really still not sure he presents them in problematic ways, he presents them in a realistic way based on the harsh world he depicts and I wondered if it was the reality of that world you find problematic, that’s what I meant by shallow. Admission on my part: that word was strong, had there still been an ‘edit’ button I would have changed it as I realised it could be taken personnaly, I’m glad you didn’t, I’m only interested in debates, not arguments.
“I’m openly acknowledging his identity”. Well it just seems to be a little more than that, and even that sentence is a little troubling. There is no reluctance in acknowledging his identity, we’re relucant to the idea that just because he’s an heterosexual white male and seems to depict women and homosexuals in what you, personally, perceive as a problematic manner, he’s likely to get it wrong. That’s judging him by gender and race, which is something you say you oppose. At the end of the day it can be ‘peachy’ as you say it because we’re not talking about interpretation of characters in a story anymore. Not that I personnally really care, it’s up to GRRM to defend himself on this one, my point is and always was that in the interest of writing, political correctness and trying to please everyone shouldn’t be the main consideration.
That being said I do see your point about “she probably wrote that because she’s a woman” example.
And I also saw your point (or was it someone else?) that it was harder to identify for you with characters than it was for someone like me. I can see that. For me, when Tyrion, thinking of Cersei, Sansa and other women situations reflected and I quote “Really, they are the strong ones…”, therefore acknowledging some of their struggle was enough, I can understand that for others it’s not enough. But again, imo, if it of course justfies this entire debate and the presence of this thread, it wouldn’t justify writing the books any differently.
Anyway, as always when I start to debate here, work starts to accumulate so I’ll have to take a break.
Thanks for the debate.
JedaQuote Reply
Typos, typos, very bad with typos… diverge, not deverge.
So, whatever happened to that edit button? It was great, especially for us non-native in English, as it was said earlier. Much easier to re-read the whole submitted post then in the limited edit window. You could always paste into it, but still it was useful. Anyway, I guess I’ll have to get used to it.
JedaQuote Reply
You tell ‘em. This show isn’t sexist. Now bring on more sexposition and T&A shots of Emilia Clarke!!!
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
There was another place I remember it coming up on hist livejournal, where he also called a female fan a boy with boobs. But his lj doesn’t have a search so I don’t know where it is. His attempt at humour doesn’t change things. Just because one’s intent is to joke, doesn’t make him innocent. His way of complementing women is to call them boys, and to identify them by their chest anatomy. How many times he said it doesn’t matter, he still said it at least once.
You are entirely missing the point. The world he writes is brutal. It’s not that they meet their deaths that is the problem, it’s how he writes their deaths. I’m paraphrasing Lordings and Ladies here because I can’t say it better, but white straight people meet all kinds of interesting deaths and have all sorts of stories told. Ned died with much fanfare, but before he died he had a story, we cared about him, he was an individual. Lots of white straight people are also killed in a sentence, but that’s ok. There’s plenty of others still kicking for us to read about.
Just because the world discriminates against someone doesn’t mean they can’t be a part of the story or the author should dismiss them. Look at all the female characters who have interesting and varied lives, and some of them meet bad ends. Tyrion gets a raw deal in life too, but he’s developed. Not so for queer characters and characters of colour.
Again, good intentions don’t mean innocence. It is still possible to be racist without being a full out KKK member. It’s dealt out in smaller packets, every day, and absorbed unconsciously. You keep excusing GRRM with oh he didn’t mean to, but you shouldn’t. He is a writer. It is his responsibility to not fuck up.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
It seems from your writing that the problem isn’t so much that this particular group of boys were casually killed off (something which happens to many people in the story), but that there aren’t many others who you feel are similar to you. Your race and sexuality are clearly very important to your identity. If Xaro Xoan Daxos (looking as he does in the series) were a POV character perhaps this would not be an issue, but he is not.
Largely this comes from the world GRRM chose to write. Most of the action takes place in a white-dominated continent, thus most of the characters are white. He could have chosen differently, but this is as valid an option as any other, especially given the parallels with equally white-dominated medieval Europe.
It would be nice to have some more diversity in the tale. I confess to feeling a little uncomfortable reading about Chataya and Alayaya- no issue that these particular black women work in a brothel, but it stands out more since we don’t meet many other black women.
There are gay characters in the story- Renly and Loras of course, and also a POV character Jon Connington. But perhaps you can’t identify with them because they are white? Whether Taena Merryweather is actually gay or just going along with it for the sake of spying is unknown- both are possible. More would be nice of course, but the story isn’t over yet.
When there’s a character you really feel a connection with in a story that’s great, but it’s no less a good story when there aren’t any characters you feel are like you.
I have yet to find a character I identify with in that way. There are plenty of white heterosexual women, but to me those are not the most important aspects of my identity. They are there, but I think of myself as other things first. Perhaps if a character I felt was really like me was introduced and killed off on the same page I’d feel pissed off too, but I don’t think I’d take offence.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
I haven’t said anything like that, actually. Please do not put words in my mouth. I barely touched upon race at all, and that wasn’t an accident. This topic is about sexism and feminism. I feel that racism and LGBT issues deserve their own discussions, because they are huge topics that deserve examination. I have a lot of thoughts about race and ethnicity in ASOIAF, but I was thinking I would hold back on writing about it in terms of the show until after we see Qarth depicted onscreen.
Google works on Martin’s blog. The “boys with boobs” comment, the joking quote I mentioned above, that IS the quote that comes from his livejournal- I can’t find any other remark like it. I have a feeling that quote has been taken way out of context and distorted. He made a joke. It made perfect sense in context, and his intent was to actually agree with the idea that women not liking fantasy is absurd.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Oh man… I have begun the final draft of a novel just recently and being westernized white heterosexual male I have just unconsciously made all my characters white. Even though I have an evil gay guy and an evil bisexual and a Brazilian with dreadlocks all living in a futuristic patriarchal society does anyone think I should go back and throw in some colour? Gulp!!!
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
I’ll be honest, the bent this conversation has taken has made me a little uncomfortable. Not because I don’t understand or agree with the viewpoints being brought forth here, nor because this hasn’t been an intelligent discussion (because it has.) It’s more because the focus has become so narrow that there is no way to move forward. We went from the topic of misogyny, to whether or not GRRM abused male, non-white characters in the books, whether that was intentional, and if it wasn’t, is that worse. Honestly, how is anyone supposed to comment on that? It’s such a specific complaint. No one is going to change Lordlings and Ladies mind about how he feels, because it’s a deeply personal situation for him. Moreover, anyone who disagrees with him doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on, unless you yourself are a non-white, gay male. It’s not so much that it’s a “controversial” topic, as it’s a non-starter.
Lordlings and Ladies, I am truly sorry that you feel at any way slighted. I don’t necessarily understand or agree with your stance, but I respect it. I don’t see how anything else can be said about the matter than hasn’t already been said.
Now, I hesitate to say this, because I am not looking to trivialize anyone’s feelings, but wasn’t this was supposed to be a discussion of how women feel in the fandom? Where did that discussion go to?
Further, we had a great deal of talk about misogyny in the books, but I haven’t really seen any back-and-forth on the topic of misogyny in the fandom. Anybody want to talk about that one? Is that too uncomfortable a topic to go into?
You know, maybe I’ve missed it. If I have, I’ll be happy to cop to it.
KatieQuote Reply
Also,
Amen.
KatieQuote Reply
omg please god no.
Epic pinaforesQuote Reply
Katie,
Lordlings and Ladies, I am truly sorry that you feel at any way slighted. I don’t necessarily understand or agree with your stance, but I respect it. I don’t see how anything else can be said about the matter than hasn’t already been said.
Totally agree. (ps – no slights. It’s been very civil).
Further, we had a great deal of talk about misogyny in the books, but I haven’t really seen any back-and-forth on the topic of misogyny in the fandom. Anybody want to talk about that one? Is that too uncomfortable a topic to go into?
“It’s just entertainment.” or “It’s fantasy, not the real world.” and “What about freedom of expression?” Those are the three most common responses I hear when the topic arises. There’s a lot of willful silence around it I think.
Do you think there’s a difference between new fans of the show versus old fans of the books? In terms of misogyny.
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Elena Amici,
You must read this (courtesy of EvilPicnic): http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/26/enter-ye-myne-mystic-world-of-gayng-raype-what-the-r-stands-for-in-george-r-r-martin/
and the other one too. Look above (Evilpicnic comment)
andreaQuote Reply
But racism and LGBT are a part of feminism. There are many women of colour, there are many queer women. In fact there’s lots of queer women of colour, and they face intersectionality. Feminism is not just for white, straight women. It’s not right to dismiss other discriminations a woman might face as being off topic to this thread. The perfumed boys in question might not be women, but the issues they face and how GRRM dealt with them are relevant to sexism.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
I kind of went on a little rant about this earlier in the comments,lol, but I do see a difference. I feel like a good chunk of the new fans of the show are female. These are the people who make up the livejournal/Tumblr community. There’s a bias against the fans in these platforms that really bothers me.
I’ve heard a lot of comments like “Oh, all the people on lj/Tumblr want to do is write in sparkle text and ship their favorite actors, they don’t care about the plot.” They’ve been referred to as “silly little girls” several times too. These are educated women in their 20s and 30s, who created their own community because they felt uncomfortable at some of the comments made on the bigger ASOIAF fan forums. Like I said earlier, c-bombs are dropped there like it’s nothing, posters say things like “so-and-so should be raped because she blah blah blah”, etc. I’m sorry, what woman would be comfortable with that? Is there some good-natured silliness that goes on in these communities? Yes. But it’s done in jest for the most part, and away from other platforms. And, a lot of these acts of “silliness” has inspired some of the funnier GoT memes out there. (Stupid Ned, Hipster GoT, FakeWesteros, etc.)
So these women create their own community because the existing, male-dominated community made them feel uncomfortable, and said old community makes fun of them for it. Very nice.
It’s not just the posters who make these comments, either. Some of the more well-known moderators have been very contemptuous of the newer fans of the books/show too. It’s disheartening.
KatieQuote Reply
Katie,
That’s the second time I heard this story. It doesn’t age well.
epic-ittyQuote Reply
Certainly racism and LGBT issues overlap with feminism. I think that goes without saying. In this case though, we seem to have completely veered away from feminism. Defining an ism is tricky and maybe impossible. But I place the issue of the perfumed boys more into an LGBT issue category. And race probably, because the “dusky woman” does make me think these boys were also non-white. The issues aren’t unconnected, but I’ve tried to focus on one major issue at a time for simplicity’s sake.
Katie- I’ve seen people say a lot of stupid things about the newer, more female-centered fandom of Game of Thrones. Generally, I tell those people to kiss my sparkly gif ass and then I never bother with them again. Makes my life easier. :)
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
Fair enough,lol. I rambled quite a bit in my first post, so when Lordlings and Ladies asked, I figured what I said got lost somewhere and I better reiterate. :p
KatieQuote Reply
I think another accusation is that we are “new” fans and therefore less worthy. I don’t know about others on tumblr, but there’s probably many like me. I’m a longtime fan, I just never participated before but the tumblr platform caught my imagination. It’s more fun to be a part of a community that is well versed in activism and to have conversations that go beyond the 101. Besides which, for the new fans there is nothing wrong with being a new fans! Fans are fans.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
After beeing a bit busy and too much into my RL job – Today I did some research on the stuff you guys are talking lately about.
I must admit now that I am deeply schoked and surprised by attacks on Tumblr community.
Although I am not on Tumblr, and probably never will be there and just to point out that my opinion on Tumblr is not contected to people who post there but rather to the form of it. I am just silly old-fashioned rabbit who prefers to read stuff :)
I only want to point out aloud that I support all Tumblr-girls :) and every other fan of the books or of the show or both who is willing to express their support in civilised manner!
Even if their opinions on some subjects are completely different.
But to attack a group of people who just express their support via some other media/way is just unacceptable.
So, GO TUMBLRs Girls!
The RabbitQuote Reply
Sadly, I missed most of the discussion and am coming in at the tail-end, but I’ve read most of the comments and it seems like there have been some great points made. Posts like this one (or discussions like this one) are why I enjoy this site.
I should probably preface my comment by saying that I come to the series (books and show) from a queer, white male perspective. As a transman, however, I often find myself in this weird grey area when it comes to discussions of gender. On the one hand, I identify as male and in many fora am treated with male privilege, but on the other I am just as often treated as a woman, or sometimes as a “thing” (with all its varying implications). Because of this, my approach to the topic is often confused.
My first real experiences in the ASoIaF community were on this website, and mostly I don’t find that people come off as overtly misogynistic (or racist or homophobic) as long as the subject doesn’t come up. I have a terrible habit of trying to pacify people when I find them belligerent, or feel they have intense views I find offensive, and the result is often that they react by continuing to dismiss the issues I (or someone else) has brought up. I think dismissing criticisms of sexism in media is a large part of the problem in the fan community, because even more, perhaps, than overtly calling someone a fag or a feminist bitch or whatever, it takes away the individual’s voice and sense of agency. Too often people wave away conversations like this one by saying things like, “well, you’re just reading too much into it,” or “get a life, it’s just a book.” I’ve always liked to question the books I read and shows I watch, especially ones I enjoy, and so I’ve found this attitude very appealing and discouraging (as though you can’t like something while also having problems with it).
For me, I know one of the reasons I don’t post a lot (well, at all really) on sites like Westeros, is that I do feel a certain amount of intimidation when I read threads and see how people are often treated when they bring up difficult questions or want to discuss minority issues (or sometimes even just approach the text/show critically). It isn’t that all I want to talk about are those things, but I feel as though by commenting on those issues I am somehow marked as “someone who cares about x because they are x themselves”. I mean, certainly my perspective is coloured by who I am and where I come from (I think Lordlings and Ladies makes a great point in saying that everyone is, whether they want to be or not), but when you attempt in anyway to support a minority community, your relationship with that community inevitably becomes a way of dismissing your opinions on the subject.
In terms of women in particular, I think a large part of the problem is that on many fan sites, when a woman (or a man) starts a discussion on female characters or sexism, or any related topic, the sexist comments are often the loudest, giving the impression of a male-dominated fandom, and effectively othering anyone who doesn’t fit the description of the commenter. It makes certain websites and groups into gendered spaces, rather than all-purpose “fan spaces.”
Not all of Westeros is like that, and there are some very intelligent, articulate people on the site, and I do like reading threads there, but the more I become acquainted with the website, the more certain aspects of it bother me.
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
The books are easy to quote and so to study. But studying teh opinions of anonymous internets? Sounds crazy, like sifting sewage for a poop. Not to mention the whole lack of objectivism thing (or the totally subjective emo-drama that would ensue).
Or, the x and y allegory: Once upon a time here we have group x and here y. x and y are fans of a tv show.. x allegedly said derogatory things about y because y arrived late to the party. Some people laughed, some cried, yet more got angry. And they never resolved their differences and the sun rose in the east another day. The end (hopefully).
Epic The BallsQuote Reply
Thank you so much for posting this. Much of what you said hit home for me.
I think you’re absolutely right about why the online communities so frequently self-segregate along gender lines. Sometimes its seems as if there’s an unwritten rule stating that when a woman brings up gender, her feelings are automatically suspect because she’s a woman. Meanwhile, the same mind-bending logic assumes that a man’s feelings on gender are inherently objective because… ?
Lordlings and LadiesQuote Reply
Lordlings and Ladies,
Exactly! What you see a lot of is people turning around and trying to make out that the person belonging to the minority group (or just other gender, since it’s a little ridiculous to suggest women are a minority in the technical sense) is somehow contributing to the problem by bringing it up, making the victim sound like a victimizer. I think it goes hand in hand with what you (at least, I think it was you!) said earlier about white people not noticing race issues or thinking its a big deal precisely because we don’t have to think about them. It’s not that in noticing race, anyone wants to be further segregated, just that it’s a sad fact that race, gender, class and sexuality are still issues that inform how we are perceived by and experience the world around us.
For instance, most people I’ve spoken to don’t notice the lack of sexual diversity on television in general, but to me its blatant. In saying that, its not that I am obsessed with pointing out the sexuality of characters all the time, just that I can’t fail to notice a lack of queer representation, where it feels like it would be natural to have some (and the same could equally be said for gender and race as well). Real life just isn’t as homogenous in Western culture as television makes out, and its a shame, because I think our entertainment industry would be enriched for having made the effort to present people fairly.
The new thing in terms of sexism and its relationship to feminism seems to be to turn it around and make it seem like feminists are all inherently sexist themselves, which I find appalling. ): In the nerd community, there’s also a lot of denial regarding the way women are portrayed (lately there’s been a lot of debate about women in comics).
Steve Hugh WestenraQuote Reply
slightly OT, sorry.
Epic knows nothing,
What´s happening? Suddenly all fictional characters agrees with you. Have you bribed them all? Listen to sweet Rayland Givens: “…women were put here on earth to turn our heads into mush”. He stole my line! I said it first.
What I believe is more or less this and I´ll use Simone Weil´s words, because she´s the most extraordinary woman for me, I love her and I can´t say this better than her: “Do not allow yourself to be imprisoned by any affection. Keep your solitude. The day, if it ever comes, when you are given true affection there will be no opposition between interior solitude and friendship, quite the reverse. It is even by this infallible sign that you will recognize it”. (I must highlight “If it ever comes” of course).
ASOIAF needs a female character like Simone Weil (or inspired by): her exquisites feelings and thoughts about faith, her courage, spirit and determination. It would be great but i´m dreaming. Well, for me, all stories need someone like her.
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
“no opposition between interior solitude and friendship, quite the reverse”.. brilliant!
“if it ever comes” emphasis: you romantic!
I was trying to think of GoT major female characters that don’t fall into the two acceptable misogynic categories of women: the virgin saint mother/whore dichotomy. Examing the female characters in the narration that don’t fall into these categories narrow down the area of focus, maybe. And although there aren’t as many speaking female characters, they do exist outside the categories, like Asha and Ygritte. What stands out most for me of all for the women found in this area of focus are defined by their sexuality every time. By comparison there are many more male characters and those are mostly not defined by their sexuality. Even north of the wall, the free womenfolk with speaking parts, are not free from a sexuality history on file (Ygritte, Osha).
From here I could make the conclusion that these female characters are written to please certain target audiences, just as most fantasy is targeted to boys. But… Ginia was wrong about one thing: People who aren’t fantasy fans love SoIaF, including women, of all ages. Once they (the daring) have a taste, they cannot stop reading aSoIaF and when done they are left wondering if all fantasy is as good. A trip to the bookstore and a conversation with a real boy with boobs in the fantasy section would indicate there are, but as she reads a recommendation she is soon disappointed. If Flewelling (who writes absolutely great female characters in fantasy) and GRRM wrote a book together in the SoIaF universe I wonder how it would turn out. I’m thinking it would be awesome! Anyway the point is the question: women don’t mind the fact that all non-category SoIaF female characters are defined by their sexuality is because it can be said that’s true in real life also? That women define themselves in the same way? No one could truly admit that. Certainly not a Simone Weil or De Beauvoir.
Based on a few hints dropped by extras there seems a possibility they will make Chaplin’s character Jeyne ‘not defined by her sexuality’ while Robb follows her around like a puppy dog. (I am actually counting on it, and I will be disappointed otherwise.) I really liked Chaplin in The Hour, so I have great hopes for Jeyne in season 2.
Special variations on the acceptable categories are Margaery Tyrell who plays The Mystery Princess who is ‘the Virgin OR the Whore’, and Queen Cerise who is of course a Mother AND a Whore. Interestingly, they are enemies. Another special case is Dany who plays all ‘acceptable’ categories of women. Virgin here, Mother there, a reborn saint/mother of dragons/etc.. ultimately though she’s just an orphan annie who was liberated too soon in the story and so must wait events.
Wow.. look at my fingers, typing all that up! Typing finger self-awareness = a good time to stop.
Epic knows nothingQuote Reply
andrea,
Andrea (or should I say Melisandre?)What magic spell do you cast to enable such thoughtful, non-facetious and civil responses from Epic?
Josh AtreidesQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
thanks to those typing fingers!
True!
The language barrier sometimes makes me think that maybe I didn´t completely understand what you mean. Be patient, please. I think S. Weil lived her life and defined herself out of any parameter other than simply being a human being (oh sorry my english grammar is sad) who lived in accordance with its ideas and thoughts . Her whole life was a proof of this: her will power and compassion… but hey! she wasn´t defined herself even by her family, education or religion. She was unique, extraordinary and certainly at the same time the most real person I can think of… auch… ok, I love her so much that I digress. Yes, she was unique and you´re asking about all the rest of us, women. Well, you don´t really ask and I can´t answer that with eloquence in English. I need my own beautiful language desperately but I will say this: I think we (women) try not to define ourselves by sexuality. It´s tricky I know, you have to be aware of yourself most of the time and not everyone wants or could to do the job. Perhaps the trick is in what motivates you to live, the reason beyond yourself that makes you get up every day. I think a woman or a man is defined by what it does when she/he can stop looking at her/his own navel (or is it belly button?).
So, you have hopes, too…we´ll see about Jayne :)
S. Weil also said that every separation is a link and consequently: ” For when two beings who are not friends are near each other there is no meeting, and when friends are far apart there is no separation”. See? I´m a true romantic ;)
And it´s late even for me. My time to stop is when I realize that I´ve wrote more in English than I´ve talked in Spanish during the day (or something like that).
andreaQuote Reply
Josh Atreides,
oh, Carlos Castaneda taught me a few tricks to appease wild cats and pumas and all sort of non civil felines. No, he ought to, he´s my grandpa. No, is because I´m awesome or because I secretly pay him.
He´s always civil Joshua, to you too. And I never call him names… you know.
But you should ask Epic… So, i´ll hide away my magic powers (from here because I need them to cook now) and I leave you two alone. :) Right.
Don´t be mad.
andreaQuote Reply
I think you make a good point bringing up the fact that it’s often very difficult not to define ourselves in this way (certainly I do, though I believe that we shouldn’t). There was a very interesting book I read recently called The End of Gay and the Death of Heterosexuality: http://www.amazon.com/End-Gay-Death-Heterosexuality/dp/1560256117
I’m not sure if it’s translated into Spanish, but if it is you should check it out. I found that it cemented in my mind a lot of my thoughts about gender (because it inevitably discusses that as well), and the fluidity of the terms we use to classify ourselves and other people. Basically, the author put into words a lot of sentiments that I’d felt for a long while.
But yeah, back to your point. ;p I think you’re right, and that it’s increasingly difficult to break the boundaries of gender and sexuality when our media and culture in general seem to be increasingly obsessed with them. On the one hand, you want to band together for the security it offers, but on the other you risk become further segregated from a larger population in doing so. One of the points Archer makes is that the unfortunate repercussion of group-identifying is that we lose sight of individual differences versus group differences. He makes the argument (using sexuality as the example) that gay rights movements are becoming outdated, because all they do is confine us to more labels when our society seems to be on the brink of re-discovering a culture where such boundaries don’t exist.
To a certain degree I agree with him, but even a cursory look at the comments on a youtube video on feminism or sexuality makes it clear that the “danger period” isn’t quite over yet. There still is something to be said for safety in numbers and a global movement to improve living conditions for women and minority groups.
It’s this same cultural obsession with sexuality that I think makes it hard for women not to see themselves through a sexualized lens sometimes. It’s not just the men, afterall, who are bombarded with sexualized women in advertisements, and there’s also an insidious element of manipulation directed toward women.
Whenever I read threads or articles devoted to the subject, I always end up thinking a little more deeply about the way the female characters are portrayed in the novels, and so I guess these conversations are doing their jobs!
I think there’s definitely something to be said about approaching the novels in the way you have here, but it brings us back to the same question of whether or not the whore/virgin dynamic in books is a product of the world the books are set in, and not Martin’s own subconscious biases. I would add Arya, in this case, to the list of characters that don’t fit into either category, although it’s been said many times before that she is written as a boy and so doesn’t count (for me that’s an issue of us defining what “girl” and “boy” mean in a contemporary sense though, and I think of gender rather differently than most people).
The general skeletons of the all the characters are fairly formulaic, and it tends to be in the details that we go beyond those initial formulas and get the meaty characters so many people love. At this point it’s very difficult to disintangle an idea of what a character is supposedly “really” like from how we see them (are we imposing modern, Western interpretations on them?), how GRRM sees them (did he create them solely from modern, Western biases?), and this idea of a Character in Their own right, with Their own pure, unspoiled agency.
The show makes it even more complicated (or maybe simpler??), because your viewing experience is filted through the writers, directors, producers, actors, etc.
I do think that (and I mentioned this in my initial comment), to some degree the show oversimplifies its women versus its men. Because the female protagonists are often more limited by in-world convention as to what they can say/do, much of their nuance is contained in their inner dialogue (I would argue more than it is for most of the male characters) and we lose almost all of that on the show. Catelyn stands out for me in this way most, perhaps, because so much of her character is already wrapped up in motherhood. When you take away her inner thoughts, you’re left with what seems like a very obvious, “good gal” character (and that’s not to knock Michelle Fairley, because I think she’s great in the role). I think doing characters like Catelyn and Sansa justice requires very smart writing, and although I don’t think the writing is universally bad on GoT (or even mostly bad, since I obviously enjoy the show), I’m not sure if it’s sharp enough in general to convey those characters, in particular, beyond what their more self-evident roles are.
Steve WestenraQuote Reply
I really don’t understand the whole point of this thread. If someone is offended by the portrayal of women in this show then they have every right to be offended. If they don’t want to watch this show they have every right not to want to for that reason. End of discussion.
coraxeryQuote Reply
I think the virgin/whore dichotomy is relevant because of several reasons. But the main reason is the traditional medieval setting. Here, you are either a virgin, or a whore. Westeros picks up on this wholesale even though there is no Mother Saint Virgin Mary to inspire the idea, but the Seven they have is close enough. Which is why I brought up the wilding women–they are not judged the same way within their own. This gives the opportunity for the narration to insert female characters that are vastly different; indeed Ygritte can have sex outside marriage without being a prostitute or being shamed. But when it comes down to it, even Osha’s has her sexual history is brought up.
As for Arya, well she’s a virgin, so she can’t be regarded as something outside the admissible categories of misogyny (according to feminist theory). Sansa is more relevant; Her virgin sexuality is contrasted to her feminine physique and her powerlessness and naivete. It’s another variation on the virgin OR whore status Margaery Tyrell enjoys, but without the protection of her family–Sansa can become a whore at any moment in the hands of predators.
Epic whateverQuote Reply
The point being made here is in SoIaF there is no escape from judgement even outside of medieval society for women. Why must it be revealed that Osha is not a virgin if her social standing doesn’t depend on it? Why must her character be defined by her sexual history? (Is it to describe all northern women as sexually aggressive?)
The willingness to define the sexual history of all women, even if the story doesn’t outwardly judge these women, allows for the misogynist virgin-mother/whore judgment in the reader. Given the thousands of pages, this is a pattern that can’t be ignored.
This isn’t about judging GRRM the lovable teddy bear. It’s about judging the narration. It’s not about guessing if the author is conscious of all outward messages.
Epic stromboneousQuote Reply
coraxery,
The point of the thread (as far as I see it) is not to complain about how offended we are (or aren’t), but to discuss the topic of gender in relation to the show, whether it’s handled well or not, how it could be improved, etc, etc. It’s the same reason anyone would want to discuss any aspect of a piece of literature or a film.
Besides which, if people ended the debate about what bothered them about an experience with, “It bothered me,” or “It didn’t bother me,” nothing would change.
Epic whatever,
I see what you’re saying regarding Ygritte and the Wildlings in general, but at the same time (if I’m remembering this correctly), it’s also a system whereby men prove their control of a woman through abduction, or some display that they are stronger. This doesn’t affect the virgin/whore dichotomy as such, but I wouldn’t argue that it’s entirely more enlightened than southern treatment of women in Westeros. In some ways, it’s very difficult to tell if Wildling women are unanimously treated as outside of being whores/virgins. No, a Wildling wife may not be a virgin prior to “marriage”, but she may still be judged as either a good or bad wife. Do we have any examples of Wildling women in marriage-like relationships who are held up as paragons or degraded (this is a legitimate question, as I really can’t remember)? I guess you could argue that Ygritte herself fits into that category.
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the fact that Ygritte doesn’t have her own chapters? Do you think we might have seen more evidence that she exists outside of the dichotomy or within it? Asha (since you mentioned her earlier) has her own chapters, and I’ve seen some arguments on other sites about whether aspects of her later storyline made her more misogynistic.
I’m still on the fence about Arya, because although yes, she is technically a virgin, there tends to be the implication of sexuality in tradition virgin motifs (at least there’s certainly that aspect to it in the Middle Ages), whereas Arya feels as though she’s incidentally a virgin (as she’s a little girl). At the same time, she does have a kind of Joan of Arc-ness to her, which would definitely place her within that paradigm.
I considered bringing up Sansa in my earlier reply, as I felt that she was a bit different as well, but I couldn’t put my finger on it what it was about her beyond the fact that she was a child in a difficult situation (clearly stereotypically feminine, but not necessarily tipping on either side of the whole virgin/whore thing). I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to why she seems to straddle the line so much.
Steve WestenraQuote Reply
Epic knows nothing,
I don’t think I fully understand your point about Dany. In my read of the text, Dany doesn’t seem to define herself in terms of gender or sexuality. In fact, she seems to me to be a fairly good embodiment of the Valyrian notion of gender-neutrality (The word for “Prince” is the same as “Princess” – and presumably other similar examples exist – because Dragons are gender neutral). Indeed, Maester Aemon (and therefore Martin) make a direct connection between gender neutrality and Dany. Even Barristan Selmy says he’s going to serve the “True KING” and then finds his way to Dany. Yes, I totally agree that much of the world she lives in thinks of her as a woman – and often times in a detrimental or paternal/misogynistic sense – but I think her true characterization rises above what (some) other characters see.
Also, you’ll notice that almost every time Dany makes reference to herself in gendered terms its when she’s trying to deceive someone (“though I’m only a young girl and unschooled in the ways of war”). Dany thinks of herself as a Dragon (and remember they are Gender-Neutral). The only time I can think of where she thinks of herself as Gendered is when she thinks of herself as the Mother of Dragons. Maybe I’m incapable of placing myself in this mindset as a male, but I don’t see that thinking of yourself as a Mother means you are thereby giving in to all things misogynistic. She could very well be thinking of herself in the gender-neutral sense of “parent” but simply being more descriptive.
I guess this is really where feminist theory loses me: I completely follow the arguments for female competence on par with men, I fully agree that women shouldn’t think of themselves in the context of being compared to men, but does ascribing female qualities, traits or roles to women thereby nullify the attempts of the first two? Women are mothers, not because they are forced to be, but because only they can be… if you were a male parent you inherently can’t have been a mother just like the female inherently can’t have been the father. Does being a mother thereby force-fit a woman into a misogynistic archetype from which they cannot escape, despite all other aspects of their persona?
If this is really what feminist thought believes, isn’t that a bit too absolute and lacking nuance? If this is not what feminist thought believes, or if I’m simply missing the nuance, then I’m eager to be corrected.
Nights KingQuote Reply
It’s interesting to look at the virgin/whore idea in terms of the male characters too. Jon and Sam are virgins- they are clearly ashamed of this, despite Jon at least telling us he’s holding back out of concern about the consequences, which is perfectly reasonable- it’s one of his more mature moments. Robert and Tyrion sleep with as many women as they can- and are proud of it. (Why those two are not best friends, with love of eating, drinking and whoring- and hatred of Cersei!- in common I have never understood!) This is of course a common theme (in real life too)- men who have many sexual partners are lauded for it, and women who do likewise are looked down upon.
It seems a shame that things are viewed so differently for men and women- in the real world as well as fiction. As an aside, I’m rather hoping that Robb (tv version) will in series 2 be shown as waiting for someone special for his first time (rather than purely worrying about pregnancy like Jon), something that usually only girls are portrayed as doing. It would be nice to see this presented as an acceptable choice for a boy too- and Robb is very much a hero figure.
Nights King,
On the basis that I consider adoptive parents to be true parents just as much as those with biological offspring (i.e you don’t need to carry the child to be a mother), I see no reason why ‘mother’ can’t be interpreted simply as ‘parent who happens to be female’. A father can love his children just as much as a mother can. The traditional roles were different, with mothers seen as nuturing and fathers as strict, but in modern society we are not restricted to those- and Dany views herself as equal to a man (in fact she considers herself superior to most people regardless of gender, since she’s a Dragon and they aren’t- and she could yet end up as mad as her brother!), whatever others might think so I imagine she at least would hold the modern view.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
For me, it was always the same, otherwise the Brontë sisters or Jane Austen wouldn´t have written their books. At least now not to have children (because you don´t want to) or repel marriage because is hell or whatever, is not a tragedy for your family…though sometimes it is… yes, about this then:
I would like to believe that because I have dear friends with all kinds of sexual preferences and have suffered for them: their parents, society, politics, etc. I know there is people who will never understand and you can´t do shit about them but, for what I see (even with the elderly) if you talk and explained with some sense, appealing to their sensitivity (and have patience) other people can understand and completely forget the way you live your life, who you choose, date or whatever makes you happy. I also realize that there´s no need to explain anything to anybody, but so are things for now. In my country gays can marry and adopt children without problems (or the same problems as everybody), for example and the law was quickly promulgated by a majority. Some things shouldn´t be imposed or need a especial law, they should emerge spontaneously and naturally I know, but it is what it is now and is the same with many other important and alarming things too: hunger, children living in the streets by themselves, etc… you know, it´s heartbreaking.
So, to Arya now: There´s one thing I think is well developed in Arya as a character but it has nothing to do with her sexuality. She´s masculinized for blah blah we all know but it doesn´t matter. What I think is great in Arya´s character, though I can´t tell if G. Martin did it intentionally (because is an uncommon thing to know about children): is her survival instinct as a child. At a certain age (can be 6 or 8 years old or less) children who are abandoned or left alone for other reasons and have to face adversity, can do so with surprising strength. I know because I see it (I’m not a psychoanalyst). And it really doesn´t matter if they are boys or girls, both survive with the same tricks, sometimes with same ferocity. Someone once said here that Arya was a psychopath who couldn´t have friends or something like that… I think she has good instincts but when children are in survival mode they only fight for themselves (imagine that!) and their younger siblings if they have them … while at the same time they look for all possible parental figures. (just like little Arya). So are the children living on the streets (at any era)… fierce, wild, powerful, proud of their courage, strength and independence (Dickens!)… without ever ceasing to be children (although only the adults could see this because children feels and want to look like invincible giants (and they are).
Did I make any sense?
Sorry, I know this thread is not about children, but as someone who actually has no problem being a woman, I mean that I assume that anyone who thinks that something is wrong with me because I’m a woman is because he/she is crazy (I may use other less fancy words for them though), I wanted to say something about the children in this story not directly related with their sexuality.
andreaQuote Reply
Ok, late to the party, but I just wanted to add one thing.
Most of what I would say has been very elegantly argued above, but regarding feminism in fantasy in general, I am generally just happy if there are strong women. Period.
This is not because I only read about women, but (and please don’t hate on me here – it’s all imho) it’s because of Lord of the Rings.
I read those books after years of reading other fantasy, and at the end, all I could think was “really? There were like 4 women in the whole freaking series, one was a witch, and the other 3 existed mainly to get married?” Since then I have many other series that suffer from the same thing, or where there is one ‘token’ female. This is frustrating because I always feel devalued as an audience.
So, while Martin may not be perfect, and I agree with the shock and taken-aback feelings with which Lords and Ladies viewed the killing of the boy slaves, I am a fan in large part because at least Martin tries to include people beyond the white male.
StephanieQuote Reply
So to start with I am male. While I think a number of characters in GoT are sexist, Martin treats the subject both accurately and according to today’s morales. Look the reality is, and always has been, that people with weapons do what they want to people without weapons. Invading armies have slaughtered and raped since the dawn of man and even some animals do this too. Martin doesn’t glorify sexism or rape, he writes it like it would be. Think of all the characters who have raped, most…well they get whats coming to them and in general are depicted as some of the worst people around. There isn’t a hero, or any kind of role model, surrounding the Mountain that Rides and his men. As it should be.
The women in the series are some of my favorite characters. I absolutely adore Dany for her confidence and passion. Personally I’m hoping she’s at some point coming over and setting certain parts of Westeros ablaze, torching it to the ground but that’s something else. She’s wild and compassionate, empathetic, smart yet naive, and is so strong. Arya is in my top 3 characters for much of the similar reasons. While I really disliked Sansa’s story for a long while, it wasn’t because I saw her as a dumb brat. But because for long parts of her story she very much is a teenage girl. She follows other younger characters like Dany, or Jon, or Bran who are naive and childish but their story forces them to grow up crazy fast and you see them develop into full characters.
While I am loathe to defend Cersei but she is hardly a “dumb whore.” She’s quite crazy, but for real reasons. She’s not some unruly wanton woman who does things purely on whim. Sure she has daddy issues, but her gender issues come from having an amazing twin brother and high birth. Cersei was raised expecting to have and hold power but to never wield because of her gender, and has never really understood why and tries to challenge that concept. There are tons and tons of reasons to hate her, but she is hardly simple or the cliche’d stereotypical “crazy bad lady”
Melisandre and Cersei, and some of the other lesser women characters, however I find extremely interesting because they themselves don’t have a sword..but have some kind of power in addition to their sex. They’re like anglerfish, and lure you in with the pretty shinny things before setting you on fire. In this world, and setting, is it really sexist to have women who are vying for power use their gender when the only way they obtain power is through manipulation? I think not. For similar reasons attributed to Arya, they are trying to survive and when it comes to survival you’ll do anything to win. Littlefinger had to do as much to accrue true strength but does that make him a victim – No, and not because he’s a guy. In the following events he didn’t have 5 thousand soldiers to protect him, he had his guile and he only got to that place by using his gender to his advantage much like the adult women in GoT have to do, albeit more frequently.
Maybe I’m jaded for being a guy, but this is one of the first series I’ve read where I can really say my favorite characters include more women than men. Top 3 being: Dany, Jon, and Arya with Davos just barely not making that list.
breaklanceQuote Reply
Luana,
I think WugWug is firing women for gossiping about her. :)
BemmaQuote Reply
Fascinating that sexism is rampant in the forums eh? What else did anyone expect? When women are portrayed as poorly as they are, it reinforces the stereotypes in the minds of the young boys who watch the show. It should be a huge cause for concern.
Yes yes, you have Arya, but she really is a classic example of a lone token character. In this case designed to “appease feminists” in a sea of sexism, conjured up by a man who follows (rather non-organically) a formula that keeps horny men and boys reeled in each episode.
Don’t fool yourself. Your argument that well “it’s not a happy world” isn’t good enough. You could have said: well it’s realistic in that kind of a world. But it’s not. Women in medieval times would have had pubic hair. But in this world, you really get the sense that it’s designed for young males who like their real-world shaved pr0n.
As a viewer, we’re annoyingly reminded of that. Kinda ruins the “fantasy” aspect of the show.
Mind you, I enjoy the cinematography and creative aspects of the show. But I’m considering dropping it for the repeated use of women as a spectacle.
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the book is feminist it says : if like Sansa you obey laws of gender you end up being abused by assholes… if like Arya you don’t obey , you end up wandering and struggling, but free and in control.
The show is sexist : nudity is not a problem, the problem, is nudity being used to imply that women are inferior , this happens when you show naked women being f**** by dressed men, in EACH episodes (this is decribed by social psychologists since the 70′s, not new, and certainly not new to hbo’s smart asses) . The problem is not” one” rape scene, the problem is rape scenes all the time, especialy rape scenes that are NOT in the books or not described, just implied.
Sreen whriters know what they’re doing and they do it on purpose: they know that men and boys will get hard ons by looking at young beautiful naked women being brutalized and humiliated. and HBO has a certain history of this : Mad men, deadwood , Rome, and even the new show “girls”. You always get violent sex scenes, where women are humiliated. I’m really getting tired of this, and I’m starting to wonder why HBO likes so much sexual violence against women, and gender domination displays.
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