Fans review the early eps of season two
By Winter Is Coming on in Reviews.

You’ve read all the critic reviews and they are great, but what do the hardcore fans think of the first few episodes of season two? To answer that question we have two lucky WiCnet readers who were able to attend screenings of the first two episodes and have written up their thoughts.

First up is Ivan Popić (@ipopic), who managed to attend an HBO Adria advance screening for the second year in a row, thanks to The Rabbit. Here are his spoiler-free thoughts:

The number of friends and relatives who are hating me right now is huge and I suspect even Rabbit could be plotting my demise. The reason is that they couldn’t go to the advanced screening of first two episodes of second season which I did as a representative of House Gatewatch. Thankfully, I managed to get 2 tickets so at least my girlfriend is happy with me.

HBO Adria did a great job for season 1 premiere so they decided to more or less repeat what they did last year – knights from Order of the Silver Dragon were patrolling the cinema, ladies in medieval garbs were handing out tickets and a lot of Daenerys cosplayers were seen in the cinema as well. The crowd was bigger than last year which shows that even in our small country Game of Thrones has gained popularity. The members of production company were in the audience as well which was a nice gesture to thank them for all the hard work they did at shooting in Dubrovnik.

But enough with the introduction, let’s talk about the first two episodes we have seen. I’ll write without spoilers but I presume everybody who is reading this has seen the first season and knows there are dragons and direwolves in it and that Ned Stark was beheaded in the first season.


Last year there was always a tiny voice of doubt in the back of my head which doubted will HBO manage to do justice to A Song of Ice and Fire. That voice was forever silenced long before I saw the end of the first episode and I was much more relaxed when the familiar opening theme started. The series picks up right where it left but it took me some time to adapt to slower rhythm compared to the last episodes of first season. Of course, I have been watching a DVD to prepare for second season so that doesn’t mean everybody will get that feeling. The action skips a lot in first 2 episodes and some plotlines get really small screentime but with only 10 hours the producers have it is the only way to show every major storyline without axing even more characters from the show. I’m not sure how a viewer who hasn’t read the books will follow who is who in Westeros but I had the same doubt in first season. We saw that once the audience got excited about the show they quickly caught up with the characters so I don’t think neophytes will have much of a problem with new additions to the cast.

The new plotline with Stannis Baratheon gets a decent amount of screen time in first two episodes which is only logical as this is the first time we meet Stannis in the series and we need an introduction to him and the people he leads. Some actors from this group are good and some are amazing. Personally, I never cared much about Davos Seaworth in the books – I always thought he has viewpoint chapters only because Martin needed somebody to observe what Stannis is doing from the front row. However, performance by Liam Cunningham is so great that Davos is now one of the characters who I can’t wait to see more of and has certainly showed many layers Knight of Onions has. Another new area are the Iron Islands but we have seen little of it in first two episodes and I’ll reserve judgement about them until I see more of the Ironborn. Balon is yet another great casting but others didn’t really get much screen time.
I’m not even going to mention actors that we have already seen before who are all generally on the level from first season or even better. However, I must mention Tyrion and his take on the court politics, it is one of the highlights of the Clash of Kings for me and so far his performance is amazing. Nina Gold again did a great job and several of the new characters are really great (I especially enjoyed Lucian Msamati as Salladhor Saan).

CGI looks amazing – they haven’t ruined direwolves, dragons look realistic enough and all locations are amazing, especially Pyke. In fact, if I wasn’t familiar with Dubrovnik’s architecture I wouldn’t even notice some CGI work they did in the background.

Don’t think that everything in the episodes is great and amazing. I’m confident some gates will emerge and book purists won’t be happy with the adaptation. There are changes from the source material and in my opinion one scene in particular which I loved in the book fell flat. Ros is still very much present (she has more screen time then Daenerys in episodes I saw) so if you are among those who hated her you will have opportunity to resent her appearances even more.

I’ll stop myself now as I don’t want to write any spoilers and ruin the viewing pleasure to others and it is getting harder and harder not to spoil anything. I can’t wait for the official premiere so I can freely discuss, cheer, moan and nitpick about every little detail of the show with the rest of you.

Next up is Knurk (@Nagil_K), a frequent poster on WiCnet, who was lucky enough to get into an advance screening. I asked him to send us spoiler-free thoughts on the first two episodes and here is what he has to say:

The first two episodes of the new season are simply amazing. I cannot stress enough how much I freakin’ loved every single second of it. I recently rewatched the first 2 episodes of season 1 and the difference is night and day. I was very pleased with what I got in season 1 and it exceeded my expectations, but my inner geek was always telling me that the show could be better, and the little devil on my shoulder was asking me why it wasn’t the bloody perfection I always had in mind when reading the books. That little devil didn’t show up once during the two hours I sat in the theater today. I’ll put in a disclaimer that upon rewatching season 1 I noticed more flaws than the first time around, so maybe my uber-excitement always sits in the way the first time I watch Game of Thrones, but for now I’m just savoring this awesome experience. Another disclaimer I’ll put in is that I’m not affected by deviations from the book at all, all I expect is good tv and when D&D drastically change the story of the book I’m not questioning their motivations or fear for what this means for future events, I just go with the flow (because mind you, there will be changes some fans just won’t like).

What pleased me the most was how fluent(ly?) everything went: all the scenes clicked very well together, there was room for comic relief, the pacing was in the right gear every time and the transitions of scenes didn’t feel forced but came natural. The creators seem to have perfected their juggling of all the storylines without dropping one ball. Sure, there were a few characters who got very little screentime, and I really wanted to see more of them but I couldn’t think of any wasted minutes with other characters so that was just the side-effect of a one hour show.

The new actors are all great, I had doubts about Yara but she really nailed it in my eyes (pure Iron attitude). Balon, Davos, Stannis, Melisandre, Salladhor, Matthos, they all rocked. As a Lena Heady critic of the first season I’m pleasantly surprised by her this year, the evil smirk is gone and she has a more ‘commanding’ presence that I was missing from her last season (still that eyebrow formation always remains this ^-). And boy, if there is one stand-out it must be Jack Gleeson, absolutely phenomenal work.

I’ll end this gushing review with another gripe I had last year, the stale use of the camera. This improved with Alan Taylor in the last episodes of season 1 and it has improved even more this season. Lots of camera-usage and tricks that give you the impression you’re watching a feature film, one particular ‘dream’ scene made all the hairs on my body stand straight. The moving cameras and beautiful cinematography gave the whole just an extra ‘oomph’ I was missing last year. And the CGI is great, though I do worry a bit how the Direwolves will look when they are running (based on how slow the Direwolves were walking around when fully on camera). But why am I ending with my one quibble? My grade so far is 9.8 out of 10, gotte give the guys some room to blow me even harder away of course.

Lastly, Westeros.org published their review of the first four episodes. There’s is a bit more spoiler-filled than most, so only check it out if you aren’t spoiler averse. Here is a spoiler-free snippet:

As always, we’re die-hard fans of the novels and everything, inevitably, is touched by that perspective… but sometimes, reasonable and even necessary decisions for the sake of adaptation don’t necessarily lead to the very best storytelling. It’s a difficult beast, adapting a mammoth series such as A Song of Ice and Fire, and it can’t fire on all cylinder all the time. But most of the time? It gets there, for the most part, and there are some sections of the story which should please even the most hardcore purists. Other areas… perhaps not so much, especially as sometimes the changes seem gratuitous, change for the sake of change.

Winter Is Coming: Thanks to Ivan and Knurk for providing their thoughts!


215 Comments

  1. Rukie44
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    Lucky! How does one attend one of these advanced screenings?

  2. Joe
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Ros gets more screen time than Daenerys? That’s a lil scary…

  3. purplejilly
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Ros gets more screen time than Danerys? *sob*. D & D’s little fan-fiction princess is working her way to the Iron Throne, no doubt..

    Thanks Ivan and Knurk for these reviews! Can’t wait to Gate it up more on Sunday night!

  4. Arthur
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    What’s with them giving valuable time to Ros? Every scene she is in personally annoys me. That news about her having more time then Dany is disturbing. Besides that, everything seems awesome…

  5. Coltaine777
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Also not happy to hear about Ros screen time..they can’t kill her soon enough for me..

  6. Maxwell James
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Remember that Dany doesn’t even show up in aCoK until two hundred or so pages in, so its not surprising that she wouldn’t be around much in the first two episodes.

  7. the waif
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    good reviews…though i read knurk’s review beforehand in post, reread is awesome.

  8. userj
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,
    Boooo IA that’s really annoying. Hopefully this just means all the Ros stuff is over with quickly and we can focus on actually important characters later. :(

    I don’t even hate Ros but her having more screentime than Dany, Jorah and the Essos crew??? That’s simply ridiculous.

  9. Maxwell James
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Also, I suspect Dany’s total screen time may be highly concentrated in one episode.

  10. Empedocles
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Dany’s storyline in A Clash of Kings is extremely boring so if they make that work, hats off.

    I’m not surprised that Ros is getting considerably more screen time, since I’m guessing they are using her in all Tyrion’s brothel-related scenes. It makes sense to continue with her instead of introducing Chataya and the other prostitutes (whose names I can’t recall). I do find her annoying though.

  11. Kanga
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Coltaine777:
    Also not happy to hear about Ros screen time..they can’t kill her soon enough for me..

    Agreed!

  12. Arthur
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Coltaine777,

    I agree. I have nothing against the actress who plays Ros but come on. Isn’t there enough characters and plots to explain that need attention and are of more importance then some 2 copper piece northern whore who in the books was of absolute zero importance?

    She gets scenes and they keep room in the series for a whore named Ros but might have to write out the Reeds? That IMO is inexcusable. Does anyone here actually give damn about the character named Ros? I doubt it… Again, nothing against the actress, just the character.

  13. Stannis
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Well I havent read anything past the first book, but I’m glad they’re condensing most of the prostitutes to one named character still with the impression of many. Just gives a face to the concept and isn’t as terrible as everyone is saying. LF’s lesbian scene is the only exception… It isn’t that bad if you just listen to what he’s saying and translate that to his position in the court, but all ros’ other scenes are effective imhio (in my humble iron opinion)

  14. sbj2k1
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    I like Ros. I think the way they’re using that character is brilliant. Give us more D&D.

  15. Anonymous Web User
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    I am not a purist.

    But Ros is a bland, pointless addition.

    And to be fair, Dany doesn’t do much in CoK, especially toward the beginning.

  16. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Ros has nothing to do with the Reeds, the comparison is pointless. Her role does not supplant their screen time. She does replace Chataya and Alayaya which is something to consider, because then we lose two of the few women of color in the series, not to mention we don’t get the Summer Islander culture which is nice to have.

  17. userj
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James: Also, I suspect Dany’s total screen time may be highly concentrated in one episode.

    No way, that doesn’t work for a TV series.

    Besides, although Dany has only 5 chapters in ‘Clash, four of them are in Qarth and only one of these is the house of the undying which is obviously what you’re referring to. She does a lot of policking in Qarth. It just turns out that none of it actually works in the end.And her last cok chapter is just brilliant (it’s the one where you-know-who shows up).

    I suspect/hope they are backending her screentime because of the fact that they need to use a lot of screentime the first episodes to introduce Stannis et al, and include the expanded Tyrell storyline, etc.

    Not to mention it’s clear they are somehow altering/expanding her story what with the spice king or whatever his name is.

    Stannis: Well I havent read anything past the first book, but I’m glad they’re condensing most of the prostitutes to one named character still with the impression of many.

    I really don’t hate Ros, and I’m ok with them using her as a prostitute composite as they did in S1. This adds some humanity to what grrm tended to use as window dressing the in books. But now that we know she’s not a Chataya replacement (since Shae will be starting her job as Sansa’s maid much earlier), I don’t see the point. There really weren’t any other whores in a clash of kings.

  18. andrea
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    I really appreciate your reviews guys because I don´t trust “professionals” critics.
    Knurk you already gave me one very important news (to me). Fingers crossed, though.
    As long as Ross presence helps the plot it´s all fine. Bad writing is the only thing that bothers me.

  19. quorin halfhand
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    wow, im so glad they added dream sequences to the tv series! now i cant wait to see how the house of undying plays out on tv. 2 days away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cant wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. tek
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I personally dont have a problem with Ros. But I think the argument of losing some of the very few examples of summer islanders and people of color in the series is probably the most valid argument so far against her. I think the producers use her to link everything together (similar to how they are reportedly using the comet in the first episode this season). I really dont have a problem with that. And for her having more screen time than Dany, I would like to see those figures when you take the whole season into account. Its silly to get worked up over screen time when you only have hearsay, and only about 20% of the show at that!

  21. Arthur
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Hello Ours is the Fury,

    You missed my point, or maybe I didn’t express it well enough. I wasn’t talking about Ros taking away screen time from the Reeds. I was talking about Ros possibly taking away screen existence. The paycheck they give the actress that plays Ros, the traveling expense, room and board, food. All that stuff has to come out of their budget.

    I don’t want to hear the excuse, “We couldn’t fit the Reeds, (or any other character that actually was of some importance in the books), in the TV series because of budget”, while they drag along a meaningless character named Ros for who knows what reason.

    Good point about Chataya and Alayaya. That is something I didn’t even think about. It would be much more interesting if they used an exotic whore, and gave a little “sexposition” on the lands far away, the TV viewer is yet to see.

    I am not here to argue or try to push my opinion of Ros on others. I just personally get really annoyed when I hear about her. I really dislike that character and every scene she was in, in season 1. Though I think it is mean to say, I really will enjoy if her character gets killed off. I would cheer…

  22. tek
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    The Reeds not being in the show is far more likely due to screen time than money. It wouldnt cost much for a child actor or two. It has a lot more to do with plot complexity, and keeping viewers from having to learn too many characters, and screentime. Lets be honest here… its HBO, there is gonna be sex… so your money argument would actually SUPPORT having only one whore, and not a bunch of random ones if you ask me.

  23. Violentos
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    You probably shouldn’t say: ” Here are his spoiler-free thoughts” and then “Ned Stark was beheaded in the first season.” shown underneath that on the main page…

  24. Eric Allen
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    “…give the guys some room to blow me even harder…” -Knurk

    I give this line 5/5 stars.

  25. negar
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    1 day remains huh?!
    It’s so childish of them to like Ros and then make roles for her. but I’ll wait , maybe it’s not as bad as every scene with her in season 1.

  26. quorin halfhand
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Violentos,

    seriously, who are you people? and when i say ‘people’ i mean those of you who skim through an article on the internet and proceed to slam the poster about a certain detail that was explained in the same article.

    For instance, if you actually read the article you would have seen this
    I’ll write without spoilers but I presume everybody who is reading this has seen the first season and knows there are dragons and direwolves in it and that Ned Stark was beheaded in the first season.

    Thats all you have to see before backing out with being spoiled, if you kept reading after “I presume everybody who is reading this has seen the first season” then its just your own fault

  27. Arthur
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    tek,

    I understand what your saying but the Reeds don’t demand any screen time for their sake alone. Bran’s screen time would just also include the Reeds. Know what I am saying? The Reeds, hopefully Meera, will only have some screen time during Bran’s scenes. Kind of like Bronn’s screen time only being with Tyrion…

  28. tek
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I understand your argument, and I too, would like to see the Reeds, but I dont blame their cut on other characters, like Ros. again, I would apply your argument back on itself. at no time, was Ros the central character of a scene last season. Well, maybe the turnip scene, but that was to establish continuity. All of her scenes have been to allow a view into other characters.

  29. Arthur
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    tek,

    Everything else, besides Ros scenes, seems amazing and I can’t wait to watch the show. I can’t wait to see what a bigger Direwolf does to a person. I can’t wait to see what Nik was talking about in episode 7. I can’t wait for the birthing scene. So much to look forward to I can be here all night speaking about it… But why, why this undeserved screen time with Ros?

    Last season, though I understand the reason for her scenes, were awful. That infamous Littlefinger scene was just the best example. Now, whenever I see her when I pop in a bluray, her appearance just makes me mad because IMO she belittles the entire series.

  30. Lord Jon
    Posted March 30, 2012 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    Violentos,

    Violentos:
    You probably shouldn’t say: ” Here are his spoiler-free thoughts” and then “Ned Stark was beheaded in the first season.” shown underneath that on the main page…

    Agree!

  31. Steven Swanson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    Ros has nothing to do with the Reeds, the comparison is pointless. Her role does not supplant their screen time. She does replace Chataya and Alayaya which is something to consider, because then we lose two of the few women of color in the series, not to mention we don’t get the Summer Islander culture which is nice to have.

    I was wondering about Summer Islanders too since they seem to be making the world at large more racially variable.

    As far as Ros goes, her character is essentially meaningless and she’s more of a plot device. All of her appearances last season were devoted to fleshing out (heh) the characters she was on-screen with, and that’s it. And personally I don’t have a problem with that, or not much of one. I think people are getting too hung up on her as a character in her own right.

    Although I did see in some newbie forums last year that some people were speculating on the important role she must play given all her screen time. Thought that was pretty funny.

  32. Stannis
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Spoilers for Ep. 2: What they have Stannis and Mel do is absolutely ridiculous with a side of stupid. Sex on the painted table? Really?

  33. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    I always get annoyed by the vigorous defense of Ros. I’m sorry, she’s the definition of a superfluous character. She takes time away from more interesting scenes and characters. And I don’t buy that, “she’s a window into other characters.” Was “play with her ass” really crucial to understanding Littlefinger? Was Theon more complex for her scenes? Pycelle? In fact, I go as far to say these characters would be much better served without her scenes. In particular, certain decisions made by Littlefinger and Theon are pretty telegraphed now. At the end of the day, D&D wrote these scenes because they liked Esme Bianco. These scenes are a favor to the actress, they’re not needed for the story.

  34. afartherroom
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Did…did the Westeros reviewer actually complain that the screenplay was short on character development for Maester Cressen? Seriously?

    Holy cow. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I liked the prologue too, but…wow.

    Fans are crazy.

  35. Ivan Popić
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Violentos: You probably shouldn’t say: ” Here are his spoiler-free thoughts” and then “Ned Stark was beheaded in the first season.” shown underneath that on the main page…

    I wrote it tongue-in-cheek and it is really your own fault if you spoil yourself for something in the first season by reading an article about season 2 reviews. Besides, when HBO does posters like this one for promotion the cat is out of the bag.

  36. Ivan Popić
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    I have really stirred up the discussion about Ros :D

    Yes, she does have more screen time then Daenerys but to put things in perspective – Daenerys has only two scenes in two episodes I saw.

  37. Premislaus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    afartherroom,

    Westeros review reminds me about communities like NoMutansAllowed (Fallout franchise). There are purists and there’s a fan Taliban.

  38. Ivan Popić
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    Stannis:
    Spoilers for Ep. 2: What they have Stannis and Mel do is absolutely ridiculous with a side of stupid. Sex on the painted table? Really?

    More spoilers for episode 2:

    I too found it a bit out of character. We know they did it but with Stannis and his sense of honor and righteousness I expected him to resist a bit more. I realize Melisandre required him to give in completely to the red god but I thought it would take more persuasion on her part then – “I’ll give you a son”.

  39. Solar
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    afartherroom,

    Yeah, complaining about Cressen is ridiculous. He lasts like..what? 12 pages? Elio (Westeros reviewer) seemed to be upset that things were being changed and characters weren’t exactly as they are in the books. Given his knowledge of the series, I guess he can’t help but have a purist mentality.

  40. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    They’re also rather racist, homophobic and misogynistic, so not really much of a surprise.

  41. Mimsy
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:31 am | Permalink

    I won’t judge Ros until I’ve seen a few episodes. I can see how her character could give the non book reader a lot of backstory on various characters, but I hope they don’t throw in awkward sex scenes in the process. Last seasons lesbian scene was so awkward and distracting, I don’t even remember what the heck Little Finger was talking about in that scene.. other than behaving like an abusive Pimp. I just wanted it to stop and I think the actresses did too.

  42. Hear Me Roar
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    I am especially glad there is a lot of Yara praise, here and elsewhere. If the looks didn’t seem to fit, the attitude is all that matters, and it sounds like spot on :) Looking forward to that, glad she’s already in the first two episodes.

  43. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    Mimsy,

    By actresses do you include Sahara Knite, adult film star?

  44. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    afartherroom,

    Just another reason to discount their review.

  45. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:55 am | Permalink

    LF is a pimp, though, and while he can be incredibly abusive (to Ned & Cat’s trust, for instance), I don’t think he was being particularly abusive in that scene. No more than an average theater director towards his/her actors, anyway. And certainly less physically abusive than a modern pimp.

    Obviously it was a sexposition scene, and it certainly went farther (and longer) than any other sex scene in S1, but that doesn’t mean it was out of character or in any way unbelievable.

  46. afartherroom
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    I’m actually really looking forward to seeing what they do with Ros this season. Part of what made her seem slightly absurd last season — to me, at least — was that she really didn’t have much of a character per se. She seemed like more of an anonymous accessory to others’ characterizations — more a prop than a person. This made it seem a bit bizarre that they bothered to move her all the way to King’s Landing just to have her continue to serve that narrative function. There just didn’t seem any particular rationale to having it be Ros, rather than any other random whore, serving her function in the scenes she was given.

    It sounds, though, as if they’re actually making her more of a character in her own right in the future. As far as I’m concerned, that’s all to the good. I don’t have a problem with non-canonical additions to the cast, so long as they actually have some personality and character and dramatic function, rather than simply serving as unusually mobile pieces of set dressing.

    (And I actually rather liked the infamous LF scene. It was a great monologue. I felt it might have worked better if the scene had been directed somewhat differently, though.)

  47. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    Nice to see that what I suspected from all the trailers is true, that the cinematography has taken a step up.

    As for Ros, I don’t really get why people say that her screen time could be better served to showcase and explain other characters. The entire purpose of Ros is to give exposition to other characters. More specifically the things that would only be told through thoughts and memories in the book.

  48. Elio & Linda
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    For those who are baffled by the point of our discussing Cressen, see additional discussion at http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/6208/?fb_comment_id=fbc_10150696014438972_21844859_10150702260258972. I hope that clarifies the confusion.

  49. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Barefoot surefoot lightfoot, she sang under the breath. I am the ghost in Harrenahl.

    +1 minus 18 hrs, 55 minutes. (oh, sorry, 15:55 for you east coast bastards)

  50. Langkard
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:08 am | Permalink

    I am trying to contain my jealousy of Ivan. Aside from living in one of the friendliest and most beautiful countries in the world, he gets to see an advance screening. Very nice!

  51. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:13 am | Permalink

    Ros was the only character in s1 that was invented by D&D and not GRRM, which is telling. I love the guys, but I think GRRM is a far better story teller than they are. I don’t mind if they skip things and move stuff around, and most of the added scenes in s1 were really great because they made sense, but I hope D&D will refrain from inventing too much stuff in future seasons. The books are so rich so why not use more material from than rather than invent uninteresting characters and cringeworthy soft porn scenes? The show is still the best thing since sliced Frey pie, but a geek gonna whine, right?

  52. caz
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Keeping ROZ at the cost of the Reeds??????? That’s totally inexcusable!!!!! WTF???

  53. Herr Fick
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:35 am | Permalink

    the goat:
    They’re also rather racist, homophobic and misogynistic, so not really much of a surprise.

    What?
    I really hope that you’re not talking about Elio and Linda…

    In any case, Westeros-org has always taken the readers’ stance in terms of criticism and they have been very fair about it. Nobody complains about changes from page to screen per se. But from a reader’s point of view, they try to understand the reasoning behind a particular deviation. And when they can’t find a narratively neccessary or creatively compelling reason, they criticise it – especially when central characters (their motives, habits or history) are altered. This is the case with Cersei, for example, who seems to have been changed even more in season two, maybe to make her more sympathetic, maybe to render Joffrey even more revolting.

    It’s a great thing to have reviewers within the ASOIAF community who watch the series from different points of view: WinterIsComing takes a more independent, television-centered stance while Westeros.org and TowerOfTheHand often put the novels first and highlight the television series’ changes (“good” or “bad” in their opinion). What’s wrong about that? By the way, all of the major community sites are very pleased by Benioff & Weiss’ work: Even their harshest criticisms have never challenged that, as far as I can see.

    Minor criticism (about Cressen’s death, for example) may seem pedantic on the one hand, but on the other hand most fans of the novels (Westeros.org included) haven’t exactly been niggardly with praise and approval. Fans tend to see only the negative side of a review, even though it might express much admiration.
    I, too, am somewhat of a reader first, but I greatly enjoy HBO’s television series. That doesn’t mean that I don’t criticise some of the producers’ decisions. And, to be honest, I rather read someone’s well-reasoned disapproval of a short-lived secondary character’s alteration than a diatribe about CGI direwolves based on 0.5 seconds of trailer footage made by someone who knows nothing about visual effects technology. But to each their own. I believe that everyone should voice their opinion – after all, we have so many great forums in this community and not everyone has to engage in all discussions. :)

    Will Cressen be a long-term point of discussion? I doubt it. But for now it’s interesting to talk about it, especially since his death has such a strong impact on the reader (we read about it from his perspective, after all).

    So, let’s just see how his role or Ros’ role plays out in season two… We already know about a lot of interesting changes (Shae becoming Sansa’s handmaid, Jeyne not being a Westerling but a nurse from Volantis, Joffrey exterminating his ‘father’s’ bastards, Daenerys’ struggles in Quarth) and some shifts in focus (Melisandre and Stannis having a relationship that is only hinted at in the novels, Robb’s exploits as general which are not shown in the novels, and so on). After the somewhat rough start of season one, I would not judge season two before it is over: Many decisions in the early episodes will probably play out during the season’s second half. And from season one we know that Benioff and Weiss know what they are doing.

  54. Tom K.
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:35 am | Permalink

    What i dont like about Ros beside the red hair..(its to much red hair with sansa and ygritte and melisandre..)

    i think she will take the role for all the lesser female characters in kings landing..AND may be she even takes the role of Arya aka Jeyne Pool aka the only female Person from winterfell Theon AND the viewers know (what is really important in the 5th book) . That would be baaad…

  55. Elio & Linda
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    Ros is getting more stick than she deserves.

    Trim thirty seconds of stuff in her first scene, and it’s basically entirely necessary and important and not just an excuse for some rumpy-pumpy (as Charles Dance calls it).

    Cut out the bad stuff leading up to her scene in episode 2, and it’s very good.

    And she has a terrific scene in episode 4.

    It’s worth noting that none of these scenes are really about her — she’s a witness to or a victim of various displays of power from other characters. If not her, than someone else would have to exist for these scenes to be seen, and having someone whom we recognize, who has a name, who’s had some dialog and who we have a sense of as a character is a lot better than just making it random prostitutes at all times.

  56. Elio & Linda
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Elio & Linda,

    That said, yes, it’s a shame there’s no Chataya or Alayaya this season.

    But there are Summer Islanders.

  57. Hear Me Roar
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    Elio & Linda,

    Thanks for you input. I like your reasoning in these posts and appreciate the useful information. Summer Islanders exist, that is good.

  58. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    Elio & Linda,

    I get your point, I really do, but I miss Chataya and Alayaya. Far more interesting people. And in Winterfell, they could have had Kyra instead of Ros. Why invent a character when the book already had better characters they could’ve used? No biggie though, and I must confess that the LF ass play scene would have been awful with or without Ros, so it’s not all her fault.

  59. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Tywin’s Bastard: . The entire purpose of Ros is to give exposition to other characters.

    Well, her last scene is S1 was actually plot driven (as was the LF scene, but everyone gets too hung up on the sex, or the LF Cliff Notes, to even notice), and it seems like she will become even more important than ever.

    Two important things to note, however, before you continue to condemn her: 1) She can Act. Esme has been incredible, & this opportunity is as important to her, if not moreso, than anyone in the cast. D&D agree, apparently. 2) As I mentioned, Ros is no longer simply a plot device (ubiquitous prostitute), she’s graduated to full-fledged pawn in this Game.

  60. Oi!
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:06 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot,

    Yeah lets cast even more actors for useless characters whose role for exposition sake can easily be taken up by Ros or any of the existing characters.

  61. afartherroom
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot: most of the added scenes in s1 were really great because they made sense, but I hope D&D will refrain from inventing too much stuff in future seasons.

    Their added scenes were great, some of the strongest material in the show. Furthermore, I thought that nearly every time they diverged from the source material, it was a clear improvement on the original. There were a couple of notable exceptions, yes, but most of what they changed was for the better, and in a number of cases served to fix the very things that were most broken or problematic in Martin’s book. That’s why I personally hope that they feel free to be even more inventive in future seasons.

    I guess you can just think of me as the anti-purist. :)

  62. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    She’s there to give exposition to plot and history as well, yes, but the scenes with Littlefinger and Pycelle are also very much about those characters, explaining who they are.

    And I didn’t condemn her in the slightest. To state her purpose is not condemning, it’s just pointing out a fact. I agree that the character has been very well acted and I’ve had no problems with her.

  63. sjwenings
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    sedeyus: And I don’t buy that, “she’s a window into other characters.” Was “play with her ass” really crucial to understanding Littlefinger? Was Theon more complex for her scenes? Pycelle?

    Littlefinger: Does everything have to be crucial? It’s just one short line and one variation to whats going on the background. His monologue explained his character well enough, and was useful in fleshing him out.

    Yes, Theon was more complex for her scenes – maybe not in the way that many liked, but at least you are wrong. :)

    Pycelle? Yes, ofcourse. We saw that he was not who he pretended to be. Ros is even barely present in the scene, really.

    I’m still rather ambivalent about Roz. I see her as a decent device to flesh out characters. I’m sure they could have done better and worse, and i don’t mind any of her scenes. Not being a prude also helps, I’m sure.

    Edit: Actually, only “Roz scene” I don’t like is when Jon mentions her as his (almost) first woman. Why would the honorable and handsome son of a lord go get himself a whore? I’m sure he could have done way better.

  64. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    Oi!,

    Actually, Ros _is_ that extra addition you don’t want. They could’ve used an unnamed extra in Winterfell (who could have been used as Kyra in s2 and beyond if they wanted, but if not, just an unnamed extra), and in KL they could’ve used Alayaya instead of Ros. No extra character added, just using a character that GRRM wrote instead of one D&D made up. I see how they have used Ros in the show, and I like some of the scenes (the Pycelle scene in particular), I just think D&D should’ve used a more interesting “canon” character instead of one they invented, however good they thought the actress was.

  65. Eleanor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    I like Ros.

    Seriously, what better way to get across Theon’s pride issues re the Starks?
    And what better way to introduce Tyrion?

  66. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    Eleanor,

    Yes I do agree, but the character could’ve been called Kyra and should’ve stayed in WF. *retreats to lurk dimension*

  67. Eleanor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot,

    Kyra wasn’t a whore though, just a seducible town girl.
    If the character had been called Kyra, we would have complained about how it was essentially a totally new character but with Kyra’s name.

  68. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot: Oi!,

    Actually, Ros _is_ that extra addition you don’t want. They could’ve used an unnamed extra in Winterfell (who could have been used as Kyra in s2 and beyond if they wanted, but if not, just an unnamed extra), and in KL they could’ve used Alayaya instead of Ros.

    Ser Lurkalot: I get your point, I really do,

    No, you certainly do not. Ros IS the ubiquitous whore! The reason they wrote her character that way, and continue to expand on that character, is because it was much cheaper (& less time consuming) to use a single actress to fill those roles, not because D&D lack the ability to write those characters.

    No One (*) deserves more praise than those two insane idiots, for giving every single one of you far more (Har!) than you ever fucking deserved.
    “deserve got nuthin to do wit it”

    *WM

  69. Oi!
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot,

    Yeah that would be great, an unnamed extra with dialogue and we are in for some more of the stable boy quality acting scenes.

    Ros is an interesting character much more so then the KL whores of the book combined and more important Esme is a good actress.

    Plus do certain people blackout during sex scenes in the book that they cry so much about the “explicit” sex in the TV show. I mean book Cersies sexcapedes, for me the lesbian scenes with that Myrish broad are far more ridiculous than the whole “play with her ass” background scene during LFs monologue.

  70. the waIF
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    another review….

    he says in first four episodes there is only 1 time dragon comes damn..

    http://blogs.detroitnews.com/geekwatch/2012/03/31/game-of-thrones-plays-out-for-second-great-season/

  71. Jaime Lannister
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    I don’t care for Ros. She’s getting a healthy dose of “Joffrey” this season, so there’s that.

  72. the waIF
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Herr Fick,

    you are absolutely right about elio and linda and other readers like me…
    but plz spoiler tag the spoilers…;)

  73. Knurk
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    Thanks Winter for posting my review!

    For all the Ros-complainers, just wait and see. She doesn’t even get naked in the first 2 episodes! (very, very, very light spoilers for the first 2 episodes) Her first brothelscene sets up the most heavy-impact scene in episode one and her second scene with Littlefinger is pure excellence, great acting from both actors. She doesn’t take away screentime from anybody as her first scene is pivotal and the second scene is all about Littlefinger. The Danyscenes are few but because of that they have greater impact in my eyes.

    It’s a shame we won’t see Chataya or Alayaya (?) but this was the most logical step for the character Ros. I’m glad she’s being fleshed out and I really think the hate for this character will be a bit toned down, although of course some people here will never forgive her for just being around in the first place.

  74. Ryan
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    Spoiler:

    I heard they are going to end the series with: Jon + Ros = King and Queen of Westeros

    Edit: I meant to spoiler mark that, but bolded it instead. Kind of makes it even more epic.

  75. Steve Westenra
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    I have a question involving a a spoiler!
    What was the scene you mentioned in your review that fell flat? *hopelessly curious*

    This is all sounding great so far! The material we’ve seen most recently in the trailers and clips has eased my mind.
    The comment about Ros/Dany did worry me a little, but having seen it explained more in the comments it doesn’t seem that bad. Like most people, I think, I find the actress fine and don’t want to bash her, but so much of her story last year seemed unbelievable (within the context of the world) compared to everything else. Hopefully that’s changed a bit this year, although it would have been nice to have Chataya and Alayaya.

  76. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Ryan,
    Ser Lurkalot,
    sedeyus,

    Hah, my thoughts exactly.

    I also keep hearing D&D keep referring to this series being called;

    “Game of Thrones, a song of Ice and Fire.”

    Maybe, if they continue to drag along Ros, they should rename it;

    “Game of Thrones, a Song of Ice and Fire… And a Whore Named Ros.”

  77. Dreamlife
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    I haven’t read all the comments, but while my initial reaction to Ros was “darn, there’s more of her this season,” I’m going to try to keep an open mind. I think I would like her more if she were better fleshed out (sorry, bad pun). What I mean is if they made her into a more interesting character with a backstory, motives, dreams, etc. In season 1 she just seemed to be used to highlight other characters’ stories (Theon’s identity issues, Petyr’s history with Catelyn, Pycelle’s big act, Jon’s fear of fathering another bastard, etc.) Honestly, we don’t really know anything about her other than she is a whore who has apparently been with nearly every major male character in the 7 kingdoms.

    I guess I am biased because I know she’s not in the books, so I assume she’s not important to the overall story. However, if they merge her with some whores from the books (Alayaya/Chataya as others have suggested), then things might get more interesting for her.

    Anyway, good to know the fans seem to like what they’ve seen. I also highly respect Dan Feinberg’s and Alan Sepinwall’s opinions, and both loved the first 4 episodes. That’s good enough for me. I haven’t read Maureen Ryan’s interview yet, but I tend to agree with her early criticisms of the show, so I’m curious to know what she thought…but I will wait until after I have a chance to judge for myself.

  78. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    This is the final point I will attempt to make about Ros and why so many people, especially me, dislike her scenes and character.

    D&D are excellent writers and producers but why do they keep regression to Ros scenes to try to explain things? With all their intellegance and skill as writers you would think they can use another, more creative way, they puts the real characters from the books in the scenes. As sedeyus pointed out, I believe it was stated during the commentary by D&D, Ros was such a fun person they added scenes for her… What?!? I understand the actress that plays Ros may be a wonderful person, they really are going to carry her along the series and give her valuable scene time because she is nice? Wow, that is just.. Crazy.

    Also, I am part of a very tight family. None of us are the “offended” type, nor the “purest” type. Every Sunday we get together and when it is a Game of Thrones Sunday, we watch it together. When ever Ros comes on, out loud, people are like “Oh no, not her again” and others just are like, “I am going for a smoke”. It is really embarrassing. All her scenes are really low points in the show. I really think she belittles the show and I know I am not alone in this opinion.

    She has no place in the epic saga and D&D have giving her far to much attention already. You’re telling me out of all the Seven Kingdoms, Ros is the only whore all the major characters come in contact with? I agree with some others who have posted, why not give her lines to a mixture of different whores, ones from exotic locations to add a greater sense of foreign people and lands.

    Anyway, I am done complaining about Ros, just mentioning her character gets me all worked up. Season 2 is going to be awesome, though I know the moment Ros comes on screen many people will be like, “oh no, not that whore AGAIN”…

  79. Impi
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    It is a no win situation if/when they add the Summer Islands prostitutes. If D & D add them in, then the discussion will turn to why are the only women of color prostitues.

    Just like the lengthy arguments following the Dothraki wedding scenes.

    They leave them out or replace them with Shae/Ros/etc and then they get fan reaction too.

    It is a shame, but I suspect no matter how they handle it, there will be complaints.

  80. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Theon leaned on her shoulder and let her guide him across the rain-slick boards. “I liked you better when you were Egret,” he told her accusingly.
    She laughed. “That’s fair. I liked you better when you were nine.”

    +1 minus 13 hours, 10 min

  81. PatD
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Benioff prepared us for this in his BluRay commentary. He warned viewers that Roz would be getting a lot more screen time in Season 2, which, I admit, made me roll my eyes when he said it. I’m not all riled up over her presence, but I’d just like to point out that exposition in any form is rarely a good device . It’s “telling” rather than “showing,” and usually signifies some kind of shortcoming – laziness, lack of writing skills, or pace issues. I seriously doubt any of that applies to the creative quotient on this series, so I think tagging Roz as an exposition device is kind of an excuse. She seems to be a favorite with TPTB, and I think it’s really that simple. She gave them good naked when asked, and they’re returning the favor.

    I’m reserving judgement about whether she deserves all this favoritism until I watch her performance. It’s entirely possible (I suppose), they see something I don’t… or haven’t, yet.

    But never mind all that, because the good news for me is that Liam Cunningham, by all accounts, rocks Davos. I’m totally relying on him to fill the hole left by Ned, so the positive Davos reviews overshadow everything else I’ve heard/read.

  82. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot:
    Ros was the only character in s1 that was invented by D&D and not GRRM, which is telling. I love the guys, but I think GRRM is a far better story teller than they are. I don’t mind if they skip things and move stuff around, and most of the added scenes in s1 were really great because they made sense, but I hope D&D will refrain from inventing too much stuff in future seasons. The books are so rich so why not use more material from than rather than invent uninteresting characters and cringeworthy soft porn scenes? The show is still the best thing since sliced Frey pie, but a geek gonna whine, right?

    This. I’m mad because we are not allowed to write fan fiction about ASOIAF, but they have done it. They have created Ros, and snuck her in, and now they are getting to do what we are not allowed to do. Have their character cavort around the ASOIAF world and interact with the characters we know and love. I guess it’s their right, as the show creators, but it annoys me. And I agree with Fury, that they are probably going to use Ros to replace Alayaya and Chataya, and it comes at the expense of diversity, and the story of the summer islanders. It’s nothing personal against Esme Bianco, who is a beautiful woman, and seems like a capable actress, it’s just that who she is, and why she’s there, grates on mny nerves, like Jar Jar Binks.

  83. PatD
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink
  84. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Well spoken!

  85. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    “We all have it coming kid.”

    William Munny, the Sandor Clegane of the Wild West.

  86. OldGran
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Ros Ros Binks. I like it. She will always be RRB to me now.

  87. qwerty
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    At the end of the day, D&D wrote these scenes because they liked Esme Bianco. These scenes are a favor to the actress, they’re not needed for the story.
    that’s the bottom line. and it *is* a drag on the show. that completely pointless pycelle scene wouldn’t have occurred without the need to give ros something to do.

    this is not purism. for example, i find the westeros reviewers’ complaints about the handling of the cressen character absolutely ridiculous. it is classic case of a fanboy exaggerating the importance of an utterly disposable character.

    not so with ros. here we have completely inconsequential character that just happens to be in contact with a lot of major characters. by the time the season is over, ros will have fracked half the cast. it reeks of the sort of convenient plotting that characterizes bad writing.

    D&B are aware of the complaints relating to both ros and sexposition in general. every review so far indicates that they have actually doubled down on both. i can’t help but feel that they are doing this as a big fuck you to perceived excessive fanboy criticism of their work.

  88. John W
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    I wonder if Gleeson might contend for a best actor supporting Emmy this year?

  89. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    qwerty:
    At the end of the day, D&D wrote these scenes because they liked Esme Bianco. These scenes are a favor to the actress, they’re not needed for the story.
    that’s the bottom line.and it *is* a drag on the show.that completely pointless pycelle scene wouldn’t have occurred without the need to give ros something to do.

    this is not purism. for example, i find the westeros reviewers’ complaints about the handling of the cressen character absolutely ridiculous. it is classic case of a fanboy exaggerating the importance of an utterly disposable character.

    not so with ros. here we have completely inconsequential character that just happens to be in contact with a lot of major characters.by the time the season is over, ros will have fracked half the cast. it reeks of the sort of convenient plotting that characterizes bad writing.

    D&B are aware of the complaints relating to both ros and sexposition in general.every review so far indicates that they have actually doubled down on both.i can’t help but feel that they are doing this as a big fuck you to perceived excessive fanboy criticism of their work.

    Wow, please admit you at least have the decency to tell other people that you’ve never read the books. Your lack of comprehension is almost shocking. Oh, wait, are you from westeros? Nevermind.

  90. Pau Soriano
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    sbj2k1:
    I like Ros. I think the way they’re using that character is brilliant. Give us more D&D.

    This. I love Ros. I find Ros bashing pretty disturbing tbh. The double standard of some people…

  91. TC
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    This has always been my main complaint about Ros: not that they are adding something that isn’t in the books, but rather that stuff I would rather see from the books has to be cut due to lack of screen time, but Ros’s scenes are added. Sure her scenes may only be a few minutes, but when the average chapter is covered in ~5 minutes or less those few minutes become significant. That being said I’m not going to overly focus on it til I have seen the scenes myself, I’m sure there will be plenty of discussion in the individual episode discussions.

  92. sjwenings
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    qwerty: completely pointless pycelle scene

    Whats completely pointless with showing that Pycelle is pretending to be weaker and slightly senile? It’s like, his main feature.

  93. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    qwerty,

    Yeah I see and agree with what you are saying. What’s next for the character Ros? Will D&D parade Esme out for interviews? Maybe she will be nominated for an Emmy? She has such wonderful scenes. I mean watching her take a “whore bath” after having sex with Grand Maester Pycelle, just the way she wipped herself, deserves an Emmy because it was such quality acting…. Right?

    We really need more scenes like that. They bring so much to the story…. Yeah right, those were low points and I was ashamed even watching them. All scenes with Ros were awful and poorly executed.

  94. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings,

    I think he was saying that a scene with Ros was not needed to show Pycelle’s act. Was it really necessary to have a sex scene with Ros to bring that out? I doubt it, they wrote that in as a favor to the actress is what his point was.

  95. HERP-DERP
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    sbj2k1,

    I agree. I think Ros is played by a much better actress than Daenerys, so I am happy she has more screen time. Dany just shouts and screams at everybody and overacts; she is also portrayed as extremely stubborn and arrogant towards the end of season 1; which just irks me..
    Ros, on the other hand, is much more enjoyable to watch.. she’s coy, sexy, quirky… and, of course, looks better naked :P

  96. Pau Soriano
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    sjwenings,

    What’s next for the character Ros? Will D&D parade Esme out for interviews? Maybe she will be nominated for an Emmy? She has such wonderful scenes. I mean watching her take a “whore bath” after having sex with Grand Maester Pycelle, just the way she wipped herself, deserves an Emmy because it was such quality acting…. Right?

    I’m not sure what I find more annoying, your anti-Ros crusade or your Natalie Dormer sexist spam

  97. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    Awww, my feelings are hurt. I have always thought long and hard and tried to consider with tender loving care how my thoughts, opinions and ideas would personally affect you.

    Sorry you feel that way… Mate.

    P.S. do you even know what sexist means? In case you were wondering it’s a form of the word sexism, witch means; Discrimination because of sex, especially against women. So please explain to me how my Natalie Dormer comments fall under that category…

  98. qwerty
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    the goat: Wow, please admit you at least have the decency to tell other people that you’ve never read the books.Your lack of comprehension is almost shocking.Oh, wait, are you from westeros?Nevermind.

    is this sort of belligerence really necessary? what is it about my post that offends you so?

    [btw, the stuff in spoiler bar is no spoiler at all. i meant to quote, and screwed that up. sorry about that.]

  99. Qazokju
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    The problem of Ros has been said, it’s clear. So when someone complains about her, some people disagree because they don’t want to be that guy from 11 months ago. Old story about newbies, complaints are out of style. Yeah yeah yeah Ros sucks, move on. For a community (wic) that doesn’t hyperlink bad reviews, it makes sense that it’s a losing battle. You are reduced to a tiny flashing “it sucks” icon that you defend weakly or you walk. I thought the bad reviews of 2011 were the source of the only interesting conversations about GoT last year, no offense to other topics.

    Im rock steady. Yeah I’m you 11 months ago and no trend will change my mind. So to make the points about Ros:

    1. Given that every bad review of GoT is about how complicated season 2 is (ie., fans are book readers versus the rest of us) I have to think that simplifying scattered whores into one travelling whore is a poor attempts to simplify, and all things considered, the writers could have done a lot better if their point was to simplify the plots and characters.

    2. Personally I don’t know why one whore is better than a bunch of whores. What is wrong with a bunch of whores? It’s probably more convenient. And the character is a device. So let’s face it, Ros is a weak link on the show. The cast is already huge to the point most named characters on the show are just faces and Ros has more screen time than any other character except Sean Bean.

    3. Unless the whole point of Ros is to upset some book readers–give them something to talk about. Because trust me, 99.9% casual viewers have no idea what her name is. To book readers she stands out like a sore thumb. So if that is the point, well even there they could have done better.

  100. mummer
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    I’m not going to argue one way or another about Ros, but I find it weird how every time people mention the Ros/Pycelle bit, it gets called a “sex scene.” Unless I missed something (and I’m pretty unlikely to miss any sex scenes), there was no sex scene– there was a “Pycelle talks to Ros after some implied sex” scene. Similarly, from the response to the shadowy outline of the guy’s body through his gown, a lot of people seemed to be convinced that they had been shown an HD close-up of Pycelle’s balls (“OMG some things can’t be unseen!!!” etc.). People are entitled to their dreams, I guess.

  101. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    It’s worse then a sex scene. We see her taking a whore bath and wipping herself disgustingly.

    But I am done with the Ros debate. Qazokju expressed my view on the Ros subject more eloquently then I could have wrote.

    I’m really sorry if I annoyed anyone. The scenes with Ros just get me so angry… =[

  102. lefaisan
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju,

    And where are all those negative reviews you’re talking about exactly ? The only one I’ve seen is the “NY Times” one.

  103. The Onion Knight
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    I been A Song of Ice & Fire fan for a while now and lurked this site for many a day prior to this but never have I been so Tywin Lannister with my opinion of so many as I have reading most the comments on this site. I cannot imagine any of you ever wrote something that was published let alone adapted?

  104. dimensionallyt
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    I cannot believe the amount of vitriol on here.

    At least wait and see for yourselves how Ros is handled this season.

    Esme is a good actress (I so wish she had been Shae), I am sure it will all be fine. Everyone seems to be getting their knickers in a twist about nothing.

  105. the waIF
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    winter,

    give us new post so this rosie topic ends!!! :/

  106. Meg
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: they are probably going to use Ros to replace Alayaya and Chataya, and it comes at the expense of diversity,

    I never thought of the inclusion the Summer Islanders (the place where “all the black people are from”) a gesture of diversity. I read it as embarrassing, actually. The SI’s on Sam’s boat are only there to help him get it on. The black women in King’s Landing are (surprise!) whores, and that Xho guy in KL seems like his only purpose is to make court life seem colorful and exotic. Moreover, don’t you think it would “look” in poor taste if the two black whores are beaten at Tyrion’s expense? Likewise, in the books he didn’t even say he was sorry…just went back to Shae, glad they didn’t beat her! (I started to hate Tyrion because of this). I have no problem if D&D replaced this half-assed attempt at “diversity” with a character who won’t invoke a firestorm about race and sexuality (she’s already a lightening rod of controversy for the latter!).

  107. the waIF
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink
  108. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings: Littlefinger: Does everything have to be crucial? It’s just one short line and one variation to whats going on the background. His monologue explained his character well enough, and was useful in fleshing him out. Yes, Theon was more complex for her scenes – maybe not in the way that many liked, but at least you are wrong. :)Pycelle? Yes, ofcourse. We saw that he was not who he pretended to be. Ros is even barely present in the scene, really.I’m still rather ambivalent about Roz. I see her as a decent device to flesh out characters. I’m sure they could have done better and worse, and i don’t mind any of her scenes. Not being a prude also helps, I’m sure.Edit: Actually, only “Roz scene” I don’t like is when Jon mentions her as his (almost) first woman. Why would the honorable and handsome son of a lord go get himself a whore? I’m sure he could have done way better.

    sjwenings: sedeyus

    My point is we will figure all these things out later in the series in more interesting ways, Ros isn’t needed to do it. I’m a book reader but I imagine if I was watching You Win or You Die would have completely took out any suspense on what Littlefinger was planning to do at the end of the episode. The same goes for Theon and Pycelle this season. None of these scenes were in the books, none of them were needed for the books. I’ll make the point again, D&D wrote these scenes as a favor to the actress, not because they served the story.

    And I’m tired of all this, “You’re all just prudes!” If my main focus was to watch people having sex, I’d go watch porn. My focus with Game of Thrones is to be entertained by the story. Yes, ASOIAF does have sex in the books, but it’s never the kind (at least I haven’t thought so) that it detracts from the story. It tells us things about the characters or setting in a NATURAL way. It’s never *SEX* three page monologue from one character to another about their inner hopes and dreams.

  109. Steven Swanson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju:

    2. Personally I don’t know why one whore is better than a bunch of whores. What is wrong with a bunch of whores? It’s probably more convenient. And the character is a device. So let’s face it, Ros is a weak link on the show. The cast is already huge to the point most named characters on the show are just faces and Ros has more screen time than any other character except Sean Bean.

    It’s a lot cheaper and easier to cast one speaking part than numerous different ones. They found an attractive decent actress to play the “whore” role, so they stuck with her, makes sense to me.

    Logistics matter, especially in a production as sprawling as this one. I mean I just finished rewatching season 1 last night and thought it silly how most of the Dothraki were so generic or invisible aside from Qotho (I think that’s the bloodrider they used), but it absolutely makes sense when you consider the logistics of the show.

  110. Meg
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju: What’s wong with a bunch of whores?

    Probably because a “bunch of whores” would be exactly that. They wouldn’t even have a name or be distinguishable from each other, which is an egregious sin for women and storytelling as far as I’m concerned. At least Ros has a name and some intelligent dialogue. Now all they need to do is give her some dignity. Trixie from Deadwood she is not.

  111. mummer
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Arthur: I hope I can resist ever responding to you again, but… grow up, man. If you can’t deal with the idea that women (and men) sometimes like to wash up a little after sex (and the “disgusting” part was in your head; on screen, what you saw was Esme Bianco’s nice rear end, and a dish full of water), then you really might want to watch a different show, because I can guarantee you’re going to see plenty of things way more “disgusting” than that.

    Based on your past behavior, I won’t be surprised if you respond with something about how you’re being persecuted for having any negative opinions. Actually there are plenty of people here with negative opinions, and although other people argue with them, they haven’t been driven away or stoned to death. You’re getting this kind of response because you sound like a belligerent 13-year-old; if you can’t imagine how that could be, that’s too bad. People also might take you more seriously if, every time you said “I’m done with this discussion, I promise not to say anything else about it,” you didn’t make a dozen more identical comments about it almost immediately (I’m talking about in the past; feel free to prove me wrong this time).

  112. fuelpagan
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Interesting conversation. Although I do understand many of your arguments against Ros. I think the way D&D are utilizing her is brilliant. The last thing the show needs is more characters that viewer only fans must realize who they are. Her character is already established. Even if you don’t like her, the moment you recognize her on screen, you know it is Ros the prostitute. You put in a random extra in the Pycelle scene, the writer must put more effort into fleshing out what is going on. Random girl could be a servant. We don’t get that Littlefinger is trying to extract information from Pycelle using his prostitutes. You still would need a scene establishing that the woman works for Littlefinger, and then hope 2 weeks later the audience remembers who she is and for whom she works for.

    And if she is replacing Alayaya, it allows for more time for other stories because you don’t have to establish who Alayaya is. You don’t have to establish why Tyrion would trust her with keeping his secret. You don’t have to establish a relationship to the point it makes since why Tyrion cares for her well being. So when Cersei holds her hostage, Tyrion’s reaction makes sense. All these connections are already there with Ros, utilizing them leaves more time for other parts of the story.

    So instead of using 3 actresses for Kyra, Chataya, and Alayaya, using 1 actress in a new character not only keeps the confusion of who is who down, but also keeps cost down in both money and screen time. The only extra scene this character added was the turnip cart scene showing her leaving for King’s Landing. The savings it provides in that she is already a known character and she has a background with Tyrion it makes sense to me.

  113. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    When someone has to resort to posting personal insults about another poster because they may have different views on a subject matter, they already lost the debate.

    Talk about “growing up”, just look in the mirror. Seriously.

    P.S. If you enjoy watching a scene of a whore wipping the loveseed from a 80yr old man who just had sex with her. Maybe you can write a request to D&D for then to insert a scene of Ros taking a shit while talking to someone about an important plot the viewers need to be made aware of.

  114. mummer
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    dimensionallyt:
    Esme is a good actress (I so wish she had been Shae)

    I like both Bianco and Kekili, and I like how different their characters are. Ros is a very practical person who takes care of herself and doesn’t bother getting into anything with people (except for needling a doofus like Theon). Shae has more of an edge to her, she’s ambitious and romantic and reckless, which makes her a really interesting match for Tyrion, and I think Kekili gets that across well. The main difference between Shae on TV and in the books is that the one on TV is smarter.

  115. Hi-Fi
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Wow. So much hate. Some peope are crazy. Ros isn’t taking screen time from anyone! None of her scenes are about her at all. You might as well say Tyrion, Theon, Littlefinger and Pycelle are stealing screentime from the others, because all of Ros’ scenes were about them.

    I like Ros. I think the actress is charismatic. I kinda dig that she’s used as a plot device. She’s not considered a person, she’s just there like furniture. She’s just a pawn. I like that she’s possibly replacing Alayaya. And if she does replace Jeyne Poole later on, as rumored, the theme would continue: Ros is a whore who plays the role that people expect her to play. It’s never about her, it’s always about what the others want and need. That’s a sad character arc I’d enjoy to see.

  116. Qazokju
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Steven, Meg,

    Yes I suppose if they had given her dialogue in the Littlefinger or Pycelle sexpositions, they would not be sexpositions and Ros might be more than just a nearly nameless whore with huge amout of screen time. But no. So anyway, let’s defend Ros more because the truth is she’s great, isn’t it?

  117. mummer
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,
    Funny how I haven’t told any of the other people here who have different opinions from me to grow up, just you. Also funny how you paid no attention to any of the other specific things I said. But keep telling yourself you can’t possibly be doing anything wrong.

    (To be clear, and I really mean this honestly: I have no idea what you’re personally like at all. You’re probably not 13. All I can go by is the way you talk here, and that is how it sounds to me; I literally don’t know any grownups who talk that way. You’ve been extremely hostile, defensive, and rude from the first day you showed up here, and I’m far from being the only person who’s said so.)

  118. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    None of them attacked me personally you fool.

  119. Steven Swanson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju:
    Steven, Meg,

    Yes I suppose if they had given her dialogue in the Littlefinger or Pycelle sexpositions, they would not be sexpositions and Ros might be more than just a nearly nameless whore with huge amout of screen time. But no. So anyway, let’s defend Ros more because the truth is she’s great, isn’t it?

    She did have dialogue. In both scenes. And in the second one part of the subtext was that she was there spying for Littlefinger, feeling out where Pycelle stood on the new king, but he didn’t bite. And it sounds like in the new season she’s moved up in Littlefinger’s whore ranks even more.

  120. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    mummer,

    You are right. I am really sorry.

    Please forgive me?

    The fact of the matter is I really am 14. My dad lets me use his computer. I am sorry about all I have said and posted. I try to be like you, a grown up, but it is so hard!

    Ros is awesome! I can’t wait to see her! Really looking forward to it.

  121. Meg
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Jesus christ people, I’m not a “Ros lover,” I just sound like one because some people hate her so much.

  122. Qazokju
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Sorry I guess that seemed sarcastic. No, I really meant: Go Ros! I think she’s (the character that is, never mind the very talented actress who breathed life into her) fantastic. Not only is her character extremely intriguing, but also she’s brilliantly (and I mean BRILLIANTLY) used by D&D as a device to get to know Littlefinger and the old guy later on. Those D&D guys are amazing writers and they are reinventing the wheel with this show. They’re really writing the bible on How To Adapt a Book to HBO show. Now if D&D can only make the OTHER characters besides the happy whore Ros be anywhere as closely layered and developed as even a tiny fraction of the book versions, then I’d be truly super glad. I mean, I accidentally watched a few scenes with Councilman Thomas ‘Tommy’ Carcetti and accidentally compared that fascinating character with our Littlefinger and I was simply FLOORED by how horrible GoT Littlefinger is. But anyway! But anyway! Go Ros! (And btw I was being sarcastic about Littlefinger.. I think GoT Littlefinger is just fascinating to watch and truly sensational).

  123. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Regarding the Ros wiping scene? Have you seen Deadwood? Rome? That’s a common occurrence in HBO series: to take the mystique of sexuality and transform it into gritty banality.

    I personally had no problem with that scene, it’s what prostitutes do. The semen was not seen, the labia was not shown in an explicit fashion. It’s no different from any other visceral HBO drama. I would have more problems portraying her as Ros the Happy whore because the actress despite her mean cheeriness last season was anything but. That scene was so non-sexual and worked well to remind us that she may be hot and all that but in the end she simply doesn’t just bang hot guys and take part of lesbian orgies, she services dirty old men as well.

    And from what I’ve heard from the reviews regarding this season is that she is playing an amalgamation of several prostitute roles. I am not a big fan of hers and I have my pet peeves with the Littlefinger brothel scene, but I don’t think she is a terrible actress or character. On the last instance I will wait to see how season 2 turns out before I will pass judgement.

  124. Matt C. Der
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    The thing I hate about Ros…. Is that I even know her name.

    The fact that we are having a 120 post argument about her makes me sick.

    These books are way to well written to be belittled by this whore.

  125. fuelpagan
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    I would have to disagree with those scenes not serving the story. Those scenes show a glimpse of what is going on behind the mask. Non book viewers better understand Theon’s situation. They get an idea of what Littlefinger is motivated by and see for themselves that he shouldn’t be trusted, not just told he shouldn’t be trusted. So when he betrays Ned, the audience is given a chance to see what Littlefingers motivations for doing so truly are. The Pycelle scene shows that Pycelle is not a frail as he is letting on to be, and that Littlefinger is using his prostitutes as spys.

    This argument that those scenes have nothing to do with serving the story and are just there because D&D liked the actress, I find fallacious. If the scenes didn’t serve the story they were trying to tell, they wouldn’t be there. Now they could have gotten the points across in other ways then using Ros. But Ros is the device they chose. As a book reader, I would prefer they not include her. But I can appreciate the function she serves. It’s not like complaining about it is going to convince D&D to edit her out now.

  126. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju,

    Sorry I guess that seemed sarcastic. No, I really meant: Go Ros! I think she’s (the character that is, never mind the very talented actress who breathed life into her) fantastic. Not only is her character extremely intriguing, but also she’s brilliantly (and I mean BRILLIANTLY) used by D&D as a device to get to know Littlefinger and the old guy later on. Those D&D guys are amazing writers and they are reinventing the wheel with this show. They’re really writing the bible on How To Adapt a Book to HBO show. Now if D&D can only make the OTHER characters besides the happy whore Ros be anywhere as closely layered and developed as even a tiny fraction of the book versions, then I’d be truly super glad. I mean, I accidentally watched a few scenes with Councilman Thomas ‘Tommy’ Carcetti and accidentally compared that fascinating character with our Littlefinger and I was simply FLOORED by how horrible GoT Littlefinger is. But anyway! But anyway! Go Ros! (And btw I was being sarcastic about Littlefinger.. I think GoT Littlefinger is just fascinating to watch and truly sensational).

    Dude you are awesome! And oh yeah… I totally agree with you! In fact I am glad we see more Ros and less Dany. I hope we get to watch Ros evolve into a very important character and we get to see just as much scenes of her having “whore adventures” as we see scenes of the other characters. That would be very fun and ingenious of D&D.

  127. Qazokju
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Matt C. Der,

    Makes you wonder why New York Times keeps giving SOIAF (the books) great reviews, and the show bad ones… Damn Yankee fantasy haters.

  128. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Matt C. Der,

    I blame Knurk ;-) and his comment about how Ros is in the first two episodes more than Dany. Since then it’s been assumed that D & D care more about Esme Bianco’s character than they do about a key player in the story. This in spite of the obvious fact that Dany’s storyline is slowly being built up in the season, that its probably a great way to save on budget when rendering CGI dragons, and it may be in terms of not wanting to slow the narrative momentum by having too much of Quarth in the beginning. I think we will have a lot of Dany episodes post episode 4 (Re: CvH saying that Mel is only in 4 episodes). We shall see.

    This is just a fun digression but I personally loved how in the beginning of season 1 the writers made seamless segues from Westeros action to Essos action eg: Ned in the crypt: “Targaryens are gone.” Robert: “Not all of them.” Cut to Dany @ Pentos. Or my favourite, Catelyn telling Ned “Your brother and father rode south once…on a king’s demand….” Maester Luwin: “A different time, a different king.” Cut to Dany’s wedding. Not to mention Dany’s matrimonial “rape” juxtaposed against Bran’s fall, an excellent portrayal of the loss of innocence. The more I think about, the Pilot was pretty damn perfect.

    And I just want to say in general, that I really miss Epic…seriously I do. He would have dined well on several posters on this board.

    “I forgive you all.”

    -Epic the Christ

  129. Mike Johnson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Herr Fick,

    Really? You think they’re reasonable? Take a look at Westeros’ thread on Gemma Whelan’s casting as Yara Greyjoy. It is not only ridiculous, it is actually cruel, insensitive, and analytically moronic.

  130. fuelpagan
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju,

    I’m glad I’m not the only one who finds issue with our Littlefinger. I think he is a great Actor, but something is just off in a few of the scenes. I thought the ones with Vary’s were pretty good. But more than once it seemed he was trying to “act” calculating instead of just being smooth. The scene where he was explaining the dagger was his came out very forced.

    Wait, did you edit your post and say he is great or maybe I just didn’t read your complete post. Damn. Well I still think a few of his scenes came out clunky.

  131. Steven Swanson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Qazokju:
    Steven Swanson,

    Sorry I guess that seemed sarcastic. No, I really meant: Go Ros! I think she’s (the character that is, never mind the very talented actress who breathed life into her) fantastic. Not only is her character extremely intriguing, but also she’s brilliantly (and I mean BRILLIANTLY) used by D&D as a device to get to know Littlefinger and the old guy later on. Those D&D guys are amazing writers and they are reinventing the wheel with this show. They’re really writing the bible on How To Adapt a Book to HBO show. Now if D&D can only make the OTHER characters besides the happy whore Ros be anywhere as closely layered and developed as even a tiny fraction of the book versions, then I’d be truly super glad. I mean, I accidentally watched a few scenes with Councilman Thomas ‘Tommy’ Carcetti and accidentally compared that fascinating character with our Littlefinger and I was simply FLOORED by how horrible GoT Littlefinger is. But anyway! But anyway! Go Ros! (And btw I was being sarcastic about Littlefinger.. I think GoT Littlefinger is just fascinating to watch and truly sensational).

    Wow, what a little wiener you are.

  132. Ivan Popić
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Steve Westenra:
    I have a question involving a a spoiler!What was the scene you mentioned in your review that fell flat? *hopelessly curious*

    The scene I mentioned is Theon’s first scene with Asha. I loved how she teased him and made him spill out everything he was planing in the books and later reveals herself to him by showing him her husband (the axe) and her suckling babe (the dagger). Here they just ride to the castle and Theon is trying to get his hand down her breeches and later she walks in on him and Balon and he realizes he had tried to hit second base with his own sister.

    I think the Ros thing kinda got blown up from my comment. She does have more screen time then Daenerys but that is 3 scenes compared to 2 Daenerys has. I’ll guess you’ll see for yourself tomorrow when the show is broadcast on HBO.

  133. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    Meg,
    I dunno, it just seems like it’s the whole Hollywood ‘whitewashing’ thing. I’m not necessarily a fan of portraying women as whores as ‘positive’, but at least it seemed in the book that Chataya was a business owner, and ran iher brothel as a business, which was a positive portrayal. It almost seems worse to take out the black characters who are whores, by saying ‘oh, it would be too offensive if we showed black whores’. How is that more offensive than white whores? If you are saying the skin color of the whore makes a difference, and you replace one skin color with a different one, isn’t that being racist? It seems like they are going to a lot of trouble to be faithful to the book, and defend all the actions in the book as ‘realistic’, except in the number and diversity of whores. I think it’s all because they want to give Ros more to do..

  134. the goat
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    qwerty: what is it about my post that offends you so?

    Hmm…I thought I made it somewhat clear that it was your ignorance.

    Qazokju:

    2. Personally I don’t know why one whore is better than a bunch of whores. What is wrong with a bunch of whores? It’s probably more convenient. And the character is a device. So let’s face it, Ros is a weak link on the show. The cast is already huge to the point most named characters on the show are just faces and Ros has more screen time than any other character except Sean Bean.

    BECAUSE IT COSTS TIME AND MONEY TO FIND MORE ACTRESSES WHO ARE WILLING/ABLE TO PLAY THOSE PARTS!! How many times does this need to be explained!?! Seven fucking Hells, if idiocy was a physical trait you’d all be bigger than Wun Wun. Would you be happier if D&D had reduced the number of dragons or direwolves rather than consolidating Kyra/Alayaya/etc into a single character?

    FaB just got off the phone with NCW, and we’ve all agreed that the next person that brings up Ros will get “Jorah-ed.”

    sedeyus:
    My point is we will figure all these things out later in the series in more interesting ways, Ros isn’t needed to do it. I’m a book reader but I imagine if I was watching You Win or You Die would have completely took out any suspense on what Littlefinger was planning to do at the end of the episode. The same goes for Theon and Pycelle this season. None of these scenes were in the books, none of them were needed for the books. I’ll make the point again, D&D wrote these scenes as a favor to the actress, not because they served the story.

    Oh my R’hllor, you are so getting eye-stabbed.

    First, as you mentioned, you’re a book reader, so by definition your viewpoint is skewed. Second, whether or not you read the book, if you didn’t realize that LF was untrustworthy, you’re dumber than that NYT reviewer. Third, there was absolutely nothing revealed in that scene which had not already been explicitly mentioned in the book, at that point.

    The Theon scene was mostly sexposition (also character driven: he doesn’t have a wife/gf, he’s extremely elitist and chauvinistic), but it certainly wasn’t unbelievable.

    As for the Pycelle scene, I’ll re-post one of my old explanations later if I can find it, but it honestly boggles my mind that so many “book readers” miss the point. I could understand if non-book readers just dismissed it as “more sex” (as Ros does, which is Pycelle’s intention), but I thought book readers would be more discerning. So don’t worry, no matter how disappointed you are about Ros, and her inclusion in the series, I am much more disappointed in you.

  135. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    sedeyus,

    I would have to disagree with those scenes not serving the story. Those scenes show a glimpse of what is going on behind the mask. Non book viewers better understand Theon’s situation. They get an idea of what Littlefinger is motivated by and see for themselves that he shouldn’t be trusted, not just told he shouldn’t be trusted. So when he betrays Ned, the audience is given a chance to see what Littlefingers motivations for doing so truly are.The Pycelle scene shows that Pycelle is not a frail as he is letting on to be, and that Littlefinger is using his prostitutes as spys.

    This argument that those scenes have nothing to do with serving the story and are just there because D&D liked the actress, I find fallacious. If the scenes didn’t serve the story they were trying to tell, they wouldn’t be there. Now they could have gotten the points across in other ways then using Ros. But Ros is the device they chose. As a book reader, I would prefer they not include her. But I can appreciate the function she serves. It’s not like complaining about it is going to convince D&D to edit her out now.

    How is that fallacious? D&D are on record saying they liked the actress so they wrote more scenes for her. Of course, the scenes aren’t going to involve just her, but if Ros was played by an actress they didn’t like as much in the pilot, we wouldn’t have gotten those scenes.

    It’s all a matter of opinion, but I stand by my opinion that her scenes are unnecessary. Her scenes reforce things we already know or we’ll very soon find out. Theon had several scenes in season one that emphasized his uneasiness with the Starks. One more scene with Ros didn’t make a difference. Littlefinger’s motive for betraying Ned was easy guessed and is expanded upon later in the series. What Pycelle knows or doesn’t know is a question answered in season two.
    Once again, Ros is the definition of superfluous. I really do love Game of Thrones altogether, but it’s also ridiculous to act there are no flaws to D&D’s writing. One is their overreliance on Sexposition. Another is their habit to tell, instead of show.

  136. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    the goat: BECAUSE IT COSTS TIME AND MONEY TO FIND MORE ACTRESSES WHO ARE WILLING/ABLE TO PLAY THOSE PARTS!!

    If they are using ‘budget’ to defend taking roles away from black women,
    and cutting the very few possible roles for women of color in this production, then that sucks. They certainly haven’t skimped on the white male soliders, mountain men, and other assorted white guys that are everywhere. Budget and consolidation didn’t come in to play with those mountain guys Tyrion runs into after leaving the Eyrie! I call racism and sexism on D&D!!

  137. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Ros exists. Some of us hate it, some of us don’t. Deal with it. There are better things to talk about.

  138. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Oh my R’hllor, you are so getting eye-stabbed.

    First, as you mentioned,you’re a book reader, so by definition your viewpoint is skewed.Second, whether or not you read the book, if you didn’t realize that LF was untrustworthy, you’re dumber than that NYT reviewer.Third, there was absolutely nothing revealed in that scene which had not already been explicitly mentioned in the book, at that point.

    The Theon scene was mostly sexposition (also character driven: he doesn’t have a wife/gf, he’s extremely elitist and chauvinistic), but it certainly wasn’t unbelievable.

    As for the Pycelle scene, I’ll re-post one of my old explanations later if I can find it, but it honestly boggles my mind that so many “book readers” miss the point.I could understand if non-book readers just dismissed it as “more sex” (as Ros does, which is Pycelle’s intention), but I thought book readers would be more discerning.So don’t worry, no matter how disappointed you are about Ros, and her inclusion in the series, I am much more disappointed in you.

    Of course, I realized Littlefinger was untrustworthy in the book, before he betrayed Ned. He’s a naturally shifty character. The tv adaption also drove that home with a sledgehammer. Exactly the reason we didn’t need another scene of Littlefinger emphasizing, “Hey, this guy is untrustworthy. UNTRUSTWORTHY I SAY!” We already had enough scenes showing the television audience that Littlefinger was suspicious, him explaining his motives to Ros wasn’t necessary.

    What Pycelle knows or doesn’t know will be explored in season two. Just like the Maesters’ plans is something that can be explored in later seasons.There’s no reason to explain these things before they actually happen. Again, my issue with D&D of telling the audience something, instead of showing it.

  139. mummer
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus: How is that fallacious? D&D are on record saying they liked the actress so they wrote more scenes for her.

    They did say that, but I thought they pretty clearly meant that they liked how she played the character– as in, they thought she was good for the show. What you said earlier was that they wrote more scenes as a favor to the actress, as in for her personal benefit, which is very different. If that were really the case, it’d be pretty weird and unprofessional for the producers to admit it in an interview– whereas the other interpretation, “we liked what she brought to the show” (or “we thought this would be a minor character, but her performance showed how the character could be more interesting”), happens all the time in TV and movies and is just a normal part of the creative process.

  140. LordDavos12
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Arthur: Pau Soriano, Awww, my feelings are hurt. I have always thought long and hard and tried to consider with tender loving care how my thoughts, opinions and ideas would personally affect you. Sorry you feel that way… Mate.P.S. do you even know what sexist means? In case you were wondering it’s a form of the word sexism, witch means; Discrimination because of sex, especially against women. So please explain to me how my Natalie Dormer comments fall under that category…

    I wouldn’t be questioning another poster’s intelligence if I were you. I thought “wipping” was a simple typo the first time you posted it, wasn’t going to mention it, and then you proceeded to post it again and again.

  141. userj
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: If they are using ‘budget’ to defend taking roles away from black women,
    and cutting the very few possible roles for women of color in this production, then that sucks.

    Ros isn’t taking over Alayaya and Chataya’s parts.

    Their role was completely removed by having Shae become Sansa’s handmaid right away.

  142. fuelpagan
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus: How is that fallacious? D&D are on record saying they liked the actress so they wrote more scenes for her. Of course, the scenes aren’t going to involve just her, but if Ros was played by an actress they didn’t like as much in the pilot, we wouldn’t have gotten those scenes.

    It’s all a matter of opinion, but I stand by my opinion that her scenes are unnecessary. Her scenes reforce things we already know or we’ll very soon find out.Theon had several scenes in season one that emphasized his uneasiness with the Starks. One more scene with Ros didn’t make a difference. Littlefinger’s motive for betraying Ned was easy guessed and is expanded upon later in the series.What Pycelle knows or doesn’t know is a question answered in season two.
    Once again, Ros is the definition of superfluous.I really do love Game of Thrones altogether, but it’s also ridiculous to act there are no flaws to D&D’s writing.One is their overreliance on Sexposition. Another is their habit to tell, instead of show.

    I don’t think D&D’s writing is flawless. And I agree with some of your points. But Ros is not superfluous. I have no doubt it was their appreciation for Esme that inspired them to look for a way to further utilize the character as D&D have stated on many occasions. At this point we can only guess at how they plan on using her. I see her as a way to simplify the story replacing the need for several more characters. Saving both money and confusion. If she is replacing Alayaya, then the relationship to Tyrion is already established saving the need for another character and the time it would take to develop why Tyrion would actually care when Cersei holds her hostage. And if she is also going to replace Jeyne Poole in becoming a fake Arya, the scenes she has with Theon take on more meaning. People who watch the show would already know Theon knows that fake Arya really is Ros. And there is no need to explain why Theon would risk more torture to save her. That relationship has been established.

    The character Ros is a way for D&D to combine several characters into one and still keep to the spirit of the story. If they hadn’t figured out a way to utilize the character to simplify the story, she wouldn’t still be around.

  143. persephone88
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    I am not a Ros fan. I understand entirely that D and D like the actress, that it is better to create a prostitute character whom viewers can identify as a person rather than a nameless whore, and the need to streamline the Chataya / Alayaya / etc minor characters into one for the sake of simplifying the already huge cast. Sadly, it’s more that whenever I see Ros, in my mind I see some faceless HBO exec at a screening whispering, “You know, this is getting a little talky cramming all this plot in – could you throw in some background sex to keep our young male demographic watching?”

    I hope that if Ros continues as a character, that they actually develop her as a character who serves a greater purpose than sexposition. It sounds like they have done that, I’m guessing, in the scene with Ros’s reaction to Meghan and her baby that we expect to be coming in S2. I am also hoping that Ros will not continue to be the Travelling Prostitute. (Look, she’s at the Wall! Look, she’s gone to Dorne now! Now she’s in Braavos! That could get silly. ;)

    I have to say that the two expository scenes in season 1 that made me wince the most were Littlefinger telling Sansa the story of the Hound’s burned face (why oh why did they have to rush that and not let The Hound tell it to Sansa himself?!), and the Littlefinger sexposition with Ros and Armica, which was painfully bad to watch, not just due to the explicit sex, but due to the idea of Littlefinger baring his soul to two women whom he’s exploiting and whom he considers beneath him. I get that the story of Littlefinger’s past with Cat needed to come out, but his telling it in that manner seemed very out of character.

    The prevalence of good reviews for season 2 have me very hopeful, especially when we hear it from prior book readers. I have to say that I was apprehensive when the first photos started being released with the shots of Maester Cressen at the burning of the seven. I pretty much knew then that the prologue of Clash of Kings had been substantially altered. Yes, it was a single chapter in the book, but it was so cinematically and beautifully written, that I really longed to see it brought to life on screen in the original way – Cressen puffing with exertion climbing the stairs of Dragonstone, Patchface with his haunting bells and poor little Shireen with her cracked face, all the way up to Cressen’s death at the hands of Mel. It sounds as though it has been rushed a bit and swapped around – I am hoping that it will still be as haunting as the Season 1 opener was with Will and his fellow crows facing the Others.

    Also not sure how I feel about some of the definitive character strokes that D and D have chosen for the tv adaption. It sounded from a previous review I read that we will see Stannis doing Melisandre on top of the Painted Table. That was left a lot more ambiguous in the novels, and I think it added to Stannis’ character, this lawful to the point of breaking man who has this attraction to a woman not his wife. Ditto Margaery Tyrell, who kept you guessing with the is she a smart young girl who is learning the game, or is she a pure player? It seems that D and D have chosen to make her obviously a player nearly on the order of Littlefinger. I rather liked the fact that she kept Cersei guessing as to her “innocence” and managed to keep a pure and sweet face before the court. I hope that Margaery will retain some subtlety. And I am praying that Renley toughens up this season, as his snivelly scene with Loras in the bath was just a mess. I like Gethin Anthony and he looks great this season, I just would like he and Loras to be more likable and sympathetic than they were last season.

    So far I’ve heard not a peep from reviewers about Jaqen. I’m hoping that is just because he is not featured so much before episode 4, and not because his part has been whittled down to nothing. Also really looking forward to seeing his wagon companions Biter and Rorge and hoping that they are as scary and horrible as they were in the books. :)

    And bring on Jack Gleeson – the boy is a villain you just love to hate, and I soooo look forward to seeing him as the series progresses. :) So much high drama in store still to come!

  144. mummer
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    persephone88: So far I’ve heard not a peep from reviewers about Jaqen

    From every review I’ve seen, it sounds like the Arya plot has barely been visited yet in the first four episodes (which are all that any of the reviewers have seen)– and from interviews with that actor, and with Maisie Williams, it sure doesn’t sound as if his part has been “whittled down to nothing.” Hope that helps…

  145. persephone88
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Lest my prior commentary seem too critical, I should say that overall I am delighted with the series so far, and think D and D have done an admirable job with condensing a marvelous but incredibly complex book into 10 hours of captivating cinema – and I agree that if they ever decided to show these on the big screen that they could likely make a bundle. This series is so beautifully filmed, it truly deserves to be seen in a real theatre on a vast screen. So kudos to the them for a great job with season one, and it does sound as if season 2 may be more captivating.

    Fingers crossed we get word from HBO soon that 3 and 4 are green lighted…:)

  146. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: I see her as a way to simplify the story replacing the need for several more characters. Saving both money and confusion.

    See I can’t really buy into that idea because there aren’t so many whores that it’s necessary to simplify them. Look at this way, in Book one, there are essentially three whore characters: Mhaegan, Doreah, and Shae. In the cases of Shae and Doreah, material was actually ADDED for the characters. There was no Ros, so all together you could say there was more whore (I’m sorry I can’t think of a better word) material in season one of GoT than there was in book one.
    Just like there’ll will probably be more whore material in season two than book two. All this talk of simplifying Alayaya and Chataya is funny, they’re really not major characters. They appear in probably less than five scenes. Ros looks like she’s getting her own storyline with Joffrey, might take Alayana and Chataya’s place, seems like she’ll be crying over Mhaegan’s baby’s death, and probably have a few more scenes with Tyrion and Littlefinger. Doreah looks like she’ll survive the Red Waste. Shae’s likely to have more added scenes, especially if they make her Sansa’s handmaiden this early.
    So the idea that Ros is simplifying things, for money and time, just doesn’t hold up.

  147. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    I wouldn’t be questioning another poster’s intelligence if I were you. I thought “wipping” was a simple typo the first time you posted it, wasn’t going to mention it, and then you proceeded to post it again and again.

    Thats funny LordDavos12. If you want to be critical about spelling mistakes, look at your handle name. I wasn’t going to say anything the first 5 threads he have taking up arms against me but since you are being picky about spelling, there it is. Really? Think about your name here before you try to bust on someone for making a spelling mistake.

  148. LordDavos12
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Care to clarify the error of my handle? As in, my personal handle that I created ? Not a simple word that a first grader should know how to spell?

  149. Knurk
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Lol this thread really exploded, and don’t you bloody blame it on me Joshua Taylor (blame Ivan)!

    In all seriousness, how can so many people be so hung up on one character? A topic where two fans on this site say how they fucking love the new season and 95% of the comments concern Ros?!? She must be doing something right.

  150. Herr Fick
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Mike Johnson:
    Herr Fick,

    Really?You think they’re reasonable?Take a look at Westeros’ thread on Gemma Whelan’s casting as Yara Greyjoy.It is not only ridiculous, it is actually cruel, insensitive, and analytically moronic.

    Are you are referring to the “Asha/Yara” thread on the casting board? Many posts there were, indeed, tasteless. Interestingly, all of those came from new users (and, more specifically, immature trolls), while several westeros.org veterans challenged their bullshit – which is how most of these discussions at westeros.org go…
    In any case, neither Elio nor Linda participated in the mud-slinging. So, what’s your point?

  151. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Knurk:
    Lol this thread really exploded, and don’t you bloody blame it on me Joshua Taylor (blame Ivan)!

    In all seriousness, how can so many people be so hung up on one character? A topic where two fans on this site say how they fucking love the new season and 95% of the comments concern Ros?!? She must be doing something right.

    It’s a credit to D&D that most of the show is so good, it makes the black spots more noticeable. But really, my complaints about Ros aren’t really just about Ros. They’re about the nature of sexposition (which feels condescending to me), of how occasionally the writing can have the subtlety of a sledgehammer, and sometimes if the writers are using their limited time and resources to bring the best story to the screen. Ros just feels like all these issues are wrapped up into one character.

  152. Gmork
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Knurk:
    Lol this thread really exploded, and don’t you bloody blame it on me Joshua Taylor (blame Ivan)!

    Personally, I don’t blame you, but all the Knurk-polishing going on. Having read your contributions, I feel like polishing the Knurk myself. Keep up the good work.

  153. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Lets recap some of the Ros scenes in a nutshell…

    1). Ros has a beautiful sex scene with Theon. (Her moaning was top notch).
    2). Ros is on a turnip wagon and flashes Theon some vigina (Beautiful acting BTW, the way she lifted up her skirt and smiled).
    3). Ros is in a whore house and plays with another whores ass. (Another emmy award winning performance, just the way she moaned and did that “assplay” was magnificent).
    4). Ros giving herself a whore bath. (Yes again, another award winning performance. The way she wiped her private parts with a few swift back and forth movements was flawless).

    All these scenes, IMO, are low points in season 1. I understand there were some important character/plot storylines being told in the background of these scenes.

    I am just wondering why D&D chooses to use these types of scenes to tell the character/plot storylines. Couldn’t they be a little more creative, I would like to think so…

    Ros scenes, seem to me, to be like their “Quickfix” at explaining things to the viewers.

    I am not offended by them or a purest. I just think, the way they are done, is very dull and annoying.

  154. Knurk
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    that’s good to hear. I actually do think D&D have learned from season 1, there’s only one sexposition-scene in the first 2 episodes and it isn’t clunky and it’s literally straight out of the book.

  155. Pau Soriano
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    purplejillyI call racism and sexism on D&D!!

    You are kidding right?

  156. Matt
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    A bit off-topic, but do we know which new actors or recurring actors got the promotion of “series regular” in the opening credits?

    Edit: I’ve seen conflicting reports and that’s why I’m wondering.

  157. Knurk
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Arthur: Anyway, I am done complaining about Ros, just mentioning her character gets me all worked up. Season 2 is going to be awesome

    now remember you said this, then breathe, relax and just enjoy season 2.

  158. Arthur
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Yeah lol…

    I can live with D&D giving Ros scenes but I won’t like it at all.

    I will just go get something in the kitchen when ever she comes on, or go outside and have a smoke, like the rest of my family and friends do….

    No worries, I can’t wait for tomorrow!

  159. purple gilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink
  160. Matt S
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    I really have to stop reading these comments, I sometimes hate calling myself a book reader because of the amount of absurdity that comes from them. I’m happy for changes from the books because the books are not perfect by any means, but Season 1 is by far the best first season of any show I’ve ever seen, so I’m glad that they D&D are changing things.

    But if you are such a fan of the books that you can’t stand any significant change, then maybe you should remember that A) this is an ADAPTATION, things will change it’s inevitable B) GRRM even said in the commentary on episode 8 when Mago died in the show (but never did in the book) that it could be argued that a divergent timeline has occurred, and thus things can be different from the box, that this is just an alternate universe from the books (my words). and C) Not to sound rude, but you should be thankful you’re getting such an excellent (imo and in most people’s opinion) adaptation and not some slaughtered 2 hour bullshit Hollywood movie.

    Oh and am I the only one who liked the Ros/Littlefinger scene?

  161. afartherroom
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    the goat: it honestly boggles my mind that so many “book readers” miss the point.

    That’s been the pattern, though, hasn’t it? Every time there’s a scene that wasn’t in the book, a huge number of book-readers seem to miss the point of the scene entirely, while the non-book-readers, for the most part, understand it just fine. It happens over and over and over again. Sansa gets a great scene that adds some much-needed nuance to her characterization? The people who are actually watching the show start talking to one another about her character, her psychology, her capacity for denial, and her precarious position in the society in which she lives. Meanwhile, book-readers wonder to each other why the show really needed that exposition about who built the bloody Red Keep. Pycelle is revealed as a canny player and Ros as one of Littlefinger’s new ears, all while doubt is thrown on Daenerys’s very sanity? The people watching the show start talking to each other about whose side Pycelle might really be on, re-evaluating his earlier scene with Ned, and get into animated and excited debates over the more disturbing aspects of Daenerys’s character. Meanwhile, book-readers complain about their perception that matter-of-fact labia-washing and the threat of seeing a sillhouette of Julian Glover’s aging balls are obviously meant as cheap titillation for viewers (HBO! Now for fetishists and gerontophiles!).

    It would actually be totally hilarious, if it weren’t so very sad.

    (ETA: MattS — no, you’re not. I liked the scene as well.)

  162. Ed
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Not so sure about that. The one actress (Sahara Knight, I believe her name is) is a porn star and she’s done a lot longer, hardcore scenes than that one. She seems perfectly OK with those kind of scenes (from the ones I’ve seen of her, uh… work).

    Mimsy:
    I won’t judge Ros until I’ve seen a few episodes.I can see how her character could give the non book reader a lot of backstory on various characters, but I hope they don’t throw in awkward sex scenes in the process.Last seasons lesbian scene was so awkward and distracting, I don’t even remember what the heck Little Finger was talking about in that scene.. other than behaving like an abusive Pimp.I just wanted it to stop and I think the actresses did too.

  163. Matt S
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    afartherroom:

    (ETA: MattS — no, you’re not. I liked the scene as well.)

    Woot! Also I agree with everything you said just then.

  164. sedeyus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    And I hate how any problems with the show are now cast away, “It’s an adaption. Deal with it.” It’s okay to have actual issues with the show itself and not blindly swallow whatever D&D are giving you. If any other show was this blatant about nudity getting in the way of story, I have problems with that show too. And I’ve seen enough negative posts from tv watchers, to say my problems with Ros and sexposition isn’t just because I read the books and they’re changing things.

  165. Ed
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    But Purple, you KNOW if they DID show the black whores, there’d be a ton of complaining from groups about how they only black women they showed were whores… Kind of a Catch-22 for D&D huh?

    purplejilly:
    Meg,
    I dunno, it just seems like it’s the whole Hollywood ‘whitewashing’ thing.I’m not necessarily a fan of portraying women as whores as ‘positive’, but at least it seemed in the book that Chataya was a business owner, and ran iher brothel as a business, which was a positive portrayal.It almost seems worse to take out the black characters who are whores, by saying ‘oh, it would be too offensive if we showed black whores’.How is that more offensive than white whores?If you are saying the skin color of the whore makes a difference, and you replace one skin color with a different one, isn’t that being racist?It seems like they are going to a lot of trouble to be faithful to the book, and defend all the actions in the book as ‘realistic’, except in the number and diversity of whores.I think it’s all because they want to give Ros more to do..

  166. Qazokju
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Wow, what a little wiener you are.

    Nice. What a fat qock u r.

  167. Ed
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    I approve of this post.

    Matt S:
    I really have to stop reading these comments, I sometimes hate calling myself a book reader because of the amount of absurdity that comes from them. I’m happy for changes from the books because the books are not perfect by any means, but Season 1 is by far the best first season of any show I’ve ever seen, so I’m glad that they D&D are changing things.

    But if you are such a fan of the books that you can’t stand any significant change, then maybe you should remember that A) this is an ADAPTATION, things will change it’s inevitable B) GRRM even said in the commentary on episode 8 when Mago died in the show (but never did in the book) that it could be argued that a divergent timeline has occurred, and thus things can be different from the box, that this is just an alternate universe from the books (my words). and C) Not to sound rude, but you should be thankful you’re getting such an excellent (imo and in most people’s opinion) adaptation and not some slaughtered 2 hour bullshit Hollywood movie.

    Oh and am I the only one who liked the Ros/Littlefinger scene?

  168. Steven Swanson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    afartherroom,

    Well said. And I say that as a semi-fanatical book reader.

  169. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Hear fucking hear!

  170. Knurk
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    I see your point and I feel with you, when criticism gets brushed or laughed away it quickly reeks of sycophantism and we just have to swallow everything the show throws at us, and sycophantism is probably the worst thing that can creep into a fandom. Therefore I’m thankful this site is barely moderated.

    On the flipside I think Ros has been over-analyzed enough, it’s a dead horse by now. Everyone knows the character has a lot of haters, but also has quite a few fans. The people telling the haters to get over it probably just mean: we get your point, we don’t need a deep analysis of Ros and/or the LF-brothelscene every 2 weeks. Noone is right here, this discussion simply can’t be won by anyone except the trolls.

  171. andrea
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    lol, what a mess you made!

  172. Knurk
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    haha hotdamn, it was Ivan! Anyway, this thread is just a perfect tool for everyone to vent their latest steam from season 1. Now they can enjoy the pure bliss that will surround them tomorrowevening and hopefully they’ll forget about sexRosition.

  173. PatD
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    I think it’s simplistic to reduce people’s negative commentary about Roz/Ros to being that of “haters” or people who “don’t get the point.” I see very few that actually hate her, or miss the professed point of her character. It’s a commentary thread, and people are reacting to the early reviews and news about her increased role in Season 2. Everyone has a right to post their feelings about that. Yeah, some of us get more worked up about it than others, but that’s to be expected, too.

    I loved my reading experiences with the books, but I don’t feel they are some sort of sacred texts that should be protected from all change/adaptation (let’s not forget Martin’s approval of Bianco). I kind of envy the non-readers their virginal approach to the TV series (heh, never thought I’d type “envy” and “virginal” in the same sentence), so I’m more than open to a few surprises.

    I just think this whole sexposition thing is fan created. D&D have never actually copped to Roz/Ros being such a slack device, and, as I’ve said, I really think it’s just a case of the show’s creators giving an actress they favor a break. Is it detrimental to the integrity of the show (not the text, but the show)? I thought it was in Season 1, but not catastrophically so. Some of what I’m reading about Season 2 suggests she is better used this year, so I’m hoping that’s true. But her character is certainly not a deal breaker for me. If TPTB feel entitled to a little indulgence now and then, I have to say, as an appreciative fan, I can allow that. If not for these guys, we wouldn’t even have this Sunday night gem, so, for me, it’s a small trade-off.

    But everyone has the right to post their informed, intelligent opinions. If the subject seems over done or too contentious for anyone, then scroll/click on! There’s certainly enough on this site to scroll/click on to.

  174. andrea
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Instigator, don´t blame Popic! You made Arthur smoke his nerves!

  175. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: You are kidding right?

    No, I’m not, not if they cite budget concerns as to why they replaced Alayaya and Chataya with Ros. But they haven’t said that’s why they did it, it was the goat who said that, so it’s just speculation that I call racism and sexism on them at this point.

  176. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    But Purple, you KNOW if they DID show the black whores, there’d be a ton of complaining from groups about how they only black women they showed were whores… Kind of a Catch-22 for D&D huh?

    No, because then they could explain the Summer Islands, and how in ASOIAF people are generally separated racially because of how the land is laid out, and travel is slow and difficult, and explain that this is why they couldn’t cast a black Cersei or Dany because of very specific looks that are key parts of the storyline – and so this is why they had to stick to the book version of those two roles, and cast them as written. Complaint answered.

    Do you think the actresses in the movie “The Help” were complaining because their roles were maids? Shaking their heads, saying “Always casting the black folk as the servants”..

  177. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    I agree, plus, this is the whole point of WiC’s site – to give us a place to talk about the show, good or bad, what we liked or don’t like. It just seems that the stuff we don’t like makes more passionate threads.

    I think we are all allowed to have likes and dislikes, casting we can’t stand, parts left out that break our hearts (poor Blackfish Blues), and people whom we think are awesome (My Fav Crazy Eyes boy, Harry Lloyd). We all have the right to our opinion about things, and everyone else has the right to not agree with us. That being said, I think I am finally Ros’d out for the night. And who coined the new term? Rosposition? OMG that is brilliant.. I’m sure I’ll have a chance to use it in future rantings..

  178. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    That’s a bold charge…though I don’t believe it I hope they comment on the issue. Personally I can see HBO execs adjusting their collars in regards to the existence of the Summer Islanders especially since the anger stirred by the representation of the Dothraki early last season. Maybe they thought it better to not show them at all and avoid controversy and falling ratings. Sure book fans will be aware of the absence but what is not shown can be easily denied. Scary if we think about because it’s kind of a reverse racism?

    I will be honest when I write (see: attempt and put off and put off) my novel, it becomes frustrating when I realise the majority of my characters are white. It’s not because I am a racist, it’s just what comes naturally. This gets me thinking, musing if I should make this character black or Asian just because someone is going to criticize my work. It’s one of the reasons why I procrastinate with my novel. I hate that this big elephant in the room exists.

    They may make a fare share of dough but sometimes I do not envy a film/TV producer: they have a precarious path to walk. It’s just sometimes the safest path also tends to blow up in their faces as well. Curse our ancestors and their proclivity for enslaving people and creating this politically correct climate to begin with!

    Moral of the story: you simply can’t please everybody. People will love/like this show and have their personal objections (apparently Ros is one of them!) and people will dislike/hate for many different reasons as well. The problem is that we should not equate our love or hate for a series like GoT with our selves. We get possessive with the things we love and take any criticism as a personal affront. It’s human nature.

  179. PatD
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Or, maybe it was this simple:

    D: “What’re we gonna’ do about the whole Alayaya/Chataya storyline? That’s going to require two new actresses and some valuable screen time .”

    D: “What about Esme?”

    D: “Oh, yeah, right. Esme.”

    D: “We kind of owe her, ya’ know?”

    D: ” Yeah. So, we agree? Except for Shae, wherever/whenever the script calls for whore/prostitute we insert Esme.”

    D: “We’re going to get a lot of shit over this.”

    D: “Yeah, but we owe her. She brought it in S1, and just because everyone else in this story is a backstabbing mofo, doesn’t mean we have to be.”

    D: ” Plus, George likes her, too.”

    D: “Okay. Let’s do it.”

    So maybe not exactly like that, but I honestly don’t think it got any deeper than that.

  180. tysnow
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Ha, Ha, Ha to Ros haters, Jace Lacob for Sexy Beast (5 star review I guess) says this about fan favorite whore to hate, “Esmé Bianco’s haughty prostitute Ros, a character created specifically for the show. At first just window-dressing, she becomes an intriguing and well-placed entity within the power games here”.
    Personlly, I really like the character and the actress, Esme; though I thought the “play with her ass scene” was a tad over the top. I enjoyed her other scenes, and to me they added to the characters performing opposite her, while giving no readers, much needed exposition.
    I believe D&D’s purpose for her and the scenes are to show us, the trust she eventually earns from her patrons so she can spy for Littlefinger while giving us exposition for what is happening off screen.

  181. PatD
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Plus, I suspect she takes a beating, too.

  182. afartherroom
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Knurk:

    Heh. Not your fault. And thank you for your review. I really enjoyed it, and I too hope that Gleeson gets some props this season. He does seem all-too-often to get left out of the young actor accolades, which makes me sad because I think his performance so far has been really superb. I’m looking forward to seeing what he can do with the role this year.

  183. Virtus
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: If they are using ‘budget’ to defend taking roles away from black women,
    and cutting the very few possible roles for women of color in this production, then that sucks.They certainly haven’t skimped on the white male soliders, mountain men, and other assorted white guys that are everywhere.Budget and consolidation didn’t come in to play with those mountain guys Tyrion runs into after leaving the Eyrie!I call racism and sexism on D&D!!

    You do realize that they changed the skin color of Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Salladhor Saan from white to black? (Well, I guess Salladhor’s skin color was never explicitly mentioned, but he was from Lys and the Lysene are described as white.)

  184. afartherroom
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    tysnow: Jace Lacob for Sexy Beast (5 star review I guess) says this about fan favorite whore to hate, “Esmé Bianco’s haughty prostitute Ros, a character created specifically for the show. At first just window-dressing, she becomes an intriguing and well-placed entity within the power games here”.

    As this directly addresses my only complaint about her character (upscreen I think I referred to her as “mobile set dressing”), you can’t imagine how happy it makes me to hear this. I’m thrilled that they’re finally giving her character some substance. Excellent news.

  185. purplejilly
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Virtus: You do realize that they changed the skin color of Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Salladhor Saan from white to black? (Well, I guess Salladhor’s skin color was never explicitly mentioned, but he was from Lys and the Lysene are described as white.)

    EXACTLY! So why whitewash the whore roles? If you are going out of your way to find some work for characters with darker skin tones, why cut two of them? I guess because they are women, and D&D don’t take the women’s roles as seriously as the men.

  186. Mike Johnson
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Herr Fick,

    Do they moderate the site? Then such mudslinging should be shut down with a warning, and then banning. Or perhaps they don’t take their roles as moderators seriously. And no, I do not think moderators have the responsibility to censor opinions. But I do think the moderators should demonstrate some sort of role modeling behavior when threads such as that one run seriously off the rails by publicly reprimanding classless posts that reflect badly on the entire community. Then again, maybe they didn’t shut it down because they agree that the actress’ casting doesn’t exactly match the textual description of the character in the books, and therefore they condone publicly insulting her on their website. Hard to tell since they seem oblivious to the threads on their own website.

  187. Katie
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    I honestly don’t have a problem with the character of Ros. The only time I ever felt that the sex last season was gratuitous was in the Littlefinger scene. And not for any reason other than I happened to watch that episode with my mother, and I wanted to die of shame where I sat. But this casual regard to sex and women is such a part of this world in all of its incarnations. You should already know what you’re getting into when you experience this show.

    What I liked about Ros is that Esme plays her with this attitude. She comes off as less as the woman who is constantly getting f*cked, and more like the one who sees through all of the crap she’s fed and is just biding her time before she uses it. She plays Ros as the user, which speaks to the precedent George sets in the books of turning perceptions on their head.

    Do I think it’s a shame to lose an opportunity for some diversity in the TV show’s version of Westeros? Yes. But I don’t for a second think that David and Dan aren’t going to flesh out this world as fully and richly as possible over the course of the series as a whole, so it’s not a tragedy for me (yet.) Making Ros fill in these particular roles does make more sense for the TV show. There will be more of an emotional impact with a familiar character, and for non-book readers that is going to be essential.

    Just my two cents. :)

  188. Pau Soriano
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    PatD: d
    Or, maybe it was this simple:

    D: “What’re we gonna’ do about the whole Alayaya/Chataya storyline? That’s going to require two new actresses and some valuable screen time .”

    D: “What about Esme?”

    D: “Oh, yeah, right. Esme.”

    D: “We kind of owe her, ya’ know?”
    d

    D: ” Yeah. So, we agree? Except for Shae, wherever/whenever the script calls for whore/prostitute we insert Esme.”

    D: “We’re going to get a lot of shit over this.”

    D: “Yeah, but we owe her. She brought it in S1, and just because everyone else in this story is a backstabbing mofo, doesn’t mean we have to be.”

    D: ” Plus, George likes her, too.”

    D: “Okay. Let’s do it.”

    So maybe not exactly like that, but I honestly don’t think it got any deeper than that.

    Nd

    Mike Johnson:
    Herr Fick,

    Do they moderate the site?Then such mudslinging should be shut down with a warning, and then banning.Or perhaps they don’t take their roles as moderators seriously.And no, I do not think moderators have the responsibility to censor opinions.But I do think the moderators should demonstrate some sort of role modeling behavior when threads such as that one run seriously off the rails by publicly reprimanding classless posts that reflect badly on the entire community.Then again, maybe they didn’t shut it down because they agree that the actress’ casting doesn’t exactly match the textual description of the character in the books, and therefore they condone publicly insulting her on their website.Hard to tell since they seem oblivious to the threads on their own website.

    I think u won the price of the most idiotic post of the threat (and that ir saying something)

  189. Katie
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    You can’t produce this story without taking the women’s roles seriously. That’s going bit far, I think.

  190. Mimsy
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Is she an adult film star? I would have never guessed it from the performance. I guess I would expect more comfort with the scene. My impression was that if felt clumsy and lacking.

  191. the goat
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Sooooooooo many eye-stabbings, good thing I still have both hands…

    purplejilly: If they are using ‘budget’ to defend taking roles away from black women,
    and cutting the very few possible roles for women of color in this production, then that sucks.They certainly haven’t skimped on the white male soliders, mountain men, and other assorted white guys that are everywhere.Budget and consolidation didn’t come in to play with those mountain guys Tyrion runs into after leaving the Eyrie!I call racism and sexism on D&D!!

    wtf? Do you honestly think Alayaya/Chataya were cut because they were black??

    persephone88: I am also hoping that Ros will not continue to be the Travelling Prostitute. (Look, she’s at the Wall! Look, she’s gone to Dorne now! Now she’s in Braavos! That could get silly. ;)

    Can we please just be done with this? She traveled from Winterfell to King’s Landing, hardly a marvel. Yes, of course, the conceit is that she immediately ended up in LF’s employ, but if we can all agree that this was a plot contrivance (or was it?), let’s at least table it until it becomes relevant again.

    sedeyus: Of course, I realized Littlefinger was untrustworthy in the book, before he betrayed Ned. He’s a naturally shifty character.The tv adaption also drove that home with a sledgehammer. Exactly the reason we didn’t need another scene of Littlefinger emphasizing, “Hey, this guy is untrustworthy. UNTRUSTWORTHY I SAY!”We already had enough scenes showing the television audience that Littlefinger was suspicious, him explaining his motives to Ros wasn’t necessary.

    Yeah, you’re right. The audience should simply be left with Aiden Gillen’s sly smirk and patronizing, condescending dialogue to explain his motivations. R’hllor forbid we actually learn what those motivations are (y,know, like every single book reader was allowed to do through Catelyn’s internal monologue, which was not translatable to television).

    sedeyus:

    What Pycelle knows or doesn’t know will be explored in season two. Just like the Maesters’ plans is something that can be explored in later seasons.There’s no reason to explain these things before they actually happen. Again, my issue with D&D of telling the audience something, instead of showing it.

    Again, your arguing through the “prism” of a book reader, as GRRM phrases it. The TV audience doesn’t know what is going to happen in advance, and D&D have to use different devices to convey character and plot information to them.

    Regardless of the when and where we learn Pycelle’s secrets, this argument is about Ros, and whether or not she’s a contrivance to fill some nudity quota. In this scene, she clearly is not. If you wanna argue that the scene belongs in S2:E5, or shoulda been moved up to S1:E6, that’s fine. But that is a different argument. No matter where you put it, the fact remains that its a character and plot driven scene.

    And if you’re arguing that D&D rewrote their scripts and moved the scene into S1 because they believed it was absolutely necessary to (or were mandated to) have a scene where Esme cleans herself after servicing a 70 year old man, I’m gonna go ahead and agree to disagree, cuz there’s no point.

    sedeyus: See I can’t really buy into that idea because there aren’t so many whores that it’s necessary to simplify them. Look at this way, in Book one, there are essentially three whore characters:Mhaegan, Doreah, and Shae. In the cases of Shae and Doreah, material was actually ADDED for the characters. There was no Ros, so all together you could say there was more whore (I’m sorry I can’t think of a better word) material in season one of GoT than there was in book one.

    Okay, now I think the arguments are diverging. Ros is a convergence of characters, yes, but only unseen or non-plot driven characters. Tyrion consorts with prostitutes, as does Theon, and Pycelle (in the book I think its maids, but again, unnamed). In order to show these scenes, which were not depicted in the book, you need to cast those prostitutes. It is cheaper to hire one than many. No one is arguing she was created for any other reason, and yes, her character has been expanded to an actual, plot driven character. But even so, that does not mean that her prior scenes were superfluous. Everything has reasons.

    minus 23 hours, 36 minutes

    “Tell me the bad thing you dreamed,” Bran said. “The bad thing that is coming to Winterfell.”
    “Does my lord prince believe me now? Will he trust my words, no matter how queer they may sound in his ears?”
    Bran nodded.
    “It is the sea that comes.”

  192. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    purplejilly: No, I’m not, not if they cite budget concerns as to why they replaced Alayaya and Chataya with Ros.But they haven’t said that’s why they did it, it was the goat who said that, so it’s just speculation that I call racism and sexism on them at this point.

    Then I’m sorry for u…if you really think D&D are sexist and racist, just for expanding Ros role, u must be pretty dumb ;)

  193. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    I understand that people have more than just reservations with Ros and other aspects of the series but to call Benioff and Weiss sexist and racist is a tall order.

    I am curious as to what Nonzie and Lucian have to say about this if they are ever asked in an interview. And I think Michelle Fairley, Gwendoline Christie, Gemma Whelan and Maisie Williams would disagree with D & D being called sexist. As would Amanda Peet.

    The whitewashing of KL’s prostitutes was probably a difficult decision. On one hand there’s the memory of the Dothraki reactions that caused some controversy earlier on and then there’s the reverse racism by not showing the Summer Islanders as whores. Either way they can’t win. This is what that decision came down to. I guarantee you there was a production meeting and a vote was taken, or an HBO exec made the request.

    The truth is we don’t know, therefore it’s extreme to accuse two people of racism when we don’t know the full story.

  194. Mimsy
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    I’m gonna have to take your word on Sahara’s many talents. ;) I wasn’t dogging the girls. That particular scene was just so Skin-a-MAX to me.. (pot shot to the lame Cinemax “porn”) lol

    I don’t know about whore’s.. seeing as I’ve never been one.. but I just didn’t buy Sahara getting off on a half hearted Ros male role play attempt while LF talks her freaking ear off. It was just stupid.

    The Renly/Loras sex was way more exciting and fun.. and they TOO were freaking talking strategy. Now that’s how you do it kids!

    I was wondering why everyone was posting over here.. the other threads are a wasteland compared to this hotbed of heated whore (racism??) debate.

  195. PatD
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    I guarantee you there was a production meeting and a vote was taken, or an HBO exec made the request.

    Maybe. But in a crucial sophomore season burdened with exotic locations, more elaborate settings, the loss of a major character, the astronomical budgetary concerns of an enormous battle, etc. and so on, I honestly don’t see them expending this much time and energy on Ros’ character. They’ve obviously had a story arc in mind for her for a while, and I just don’t see it as being this controversial among them.

    For the record, I think everyone associated with this series is much too intelligent, dedicated, and sensitive to be suspected of sexism or racism (I keep referring to the BluRay commentary, but you really do learn a lot from that). I think they’ve just had to make some unpopular decisions for reasons many of us probably don’t have a clue about. I can’t even imagine the amount of responsibilities involved in a project of this size. Just based on a law of averages, Ros can’t figure among the top priorities of Season 2. She just conveniently killed two birds with one stone, so-to-speak.

  196. sedeyus
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Yeah, you’re right. The audience should simply be left with Aiden Gillen’s sly smirk and patronizing, condescending dialogue to explain his motivations. R’hllor forbid we actually learn what those motivations are (y,know, like every single book reader was allowed to do through Catelyn’s internal monologue, which was not translatable to television).

    There are several scenes in season one that go over Littefinger’s fight with Brandon for Catelyn’s hand. We also have the scene where Littlefinger tries to convince Ned to let him take Cersei and her children into custody and consider making Renly king. Does the television audience really need everything explained to them in concrete detail? Isn’t a good thing to leave some room for speculation when it comes to the characters’ motivations?

    Even book readers are never given concrete details on why Littlefinger picked Cersei over Ned. And YMMV, but Littlefinger’s a more interesting character for it.

    the goat: Again, your arguing through the “prism” of a book reader, as GRRM phrases it. The TV audience doesn’t know what is going to happen in advance, and D&D have to use different devices to convey character and plot information to them.

    Once again, my issue with Ros scenes is repeats what the television audience has already been shown. I’m not talking book vs tv, I’m talking the information already shown to us on GoT. We have several scenes, without Ros, that emphasized Theon’s relationship with the Starks and Littlefinger’s shadiness. You could argue that the Pycelle scene adds material but since all the scene really amounts to holding up a neon light above Pycelle’s head screaming, “This guy’s shady!” It’s an unnecessary scene.

    Listen, I’m fine with changes from book to television as long as the changes are good. Probably my favorite scene in season one was the conversation between Robert and Cersei, a scene that couldn’t and wouldn’t happen in the books. The Ros scenes suck. They have incredibly clunky dialogue that serve little to no purpose other than to show some tits and give Esme Bianco something to do.

  197. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    sedeyus: There are several scenes in season one that go over Littefinger’s fight with Brandon for Catelyn’s hand. We also have the scene where Littlefinger tries to convince Ned to let him take Cersei and her children into custody and consider making Renly king. Does the television audience really need everything explained to them in concrete detail?Isn’t a good thing to leave some room for speculation when it comes to the characters’ motivations?

    Even book readers are never given concrete details on why Littlefinger picked Cersei over Ned. And YMMV, but Littlefinger’s a more interesting character for it.

    The Littlefinger monologue doesn’t really give us insight into why he picks Cersei, it’s just a general statement of how he works (fucking people ((in the ass)), easing into it, etc.). Which I don’t think was all that necessary either but it’s hard for me to judge as a book reader. They’re definitely making Littlefinger more overtly slimy.

    And he pretty obviously picks Cersei simply because that allows him to further his goals; if Ned had bought into his plan he probably would have gone with Ned. I mean his main goal was keeping Stannis off the throne, who just wouldn’t tolerate the presence of somebody like him.

  198. Obsidian
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    Yikes ! I ‘ve been getting ready for tomorrow’s GoT dinner all day . Finally I peek in here …and it’s Ros already ?!

    The LF scene was over the top with the loud moaning, the early ,obvious reveal of LF twirling his moustache, etc ..I think it’s better if you’re left wondering about him for a while. The scene felt very contrived. And it went on , and on, and on…

    That said , I quite like Esme in general , and I totally get the expediency of having characters converging in Ros . I approve of them introducing more actors of colour into the story..and we’ll see how they do with that as we go on. I’m looking forward to meeting more Summer Islanders, though.

  199. WildSeed
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,
    Losing the character Alayaya ( w/in the GoT series )is a huge disappointment for me.
    In ASOIAF she collaborated with Varys, Tyrion and the Red Viper of Dorne. Her
    intelligence was as becoming as her beauty and sultriness. Strawberry blonde Roz
    does not possess that quality or interest. I hope the writers make her screen time
    worthwhile , there are alot of whores and beggars already.

  200. WildSeed
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    HUH?

  201. Ivan Popić
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    persephone88:
    So far I’ve heard not a peep from reviewers about Jaqen.

    He has a brief scene in episode two and he delivers it spot-on like in books. I’m confident he will shine in this role.

  202. Steve Westenra
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Ivan Popić,

    Thanks for answering my question! That is a bit disappointing, I have to agree, but I suppose in the grand scheme of things it’s not so a big a deal.

  203. Cookie
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:No, I’m not, not if they cite budget concerns as to why they replaced Alayaya and Chataya with Ros. But they haven’t said that’s why they did it, it was the goat who said that, so it’s just speculation that I call racism and sexism on them at this point

    Wait a minute… You call racism and sexism on the producers, because of what? Because they seem to have cut out two minor black female characters in an adaption that has already seen the cutting of countless other characters, many of them white, male and with an arguably bigger role in the book series (the three Tullys beeing a chief example here)?

    I´m sorry, but i have a hard time taking this criticism seriously, because with a difficult adaption like this, there could be a hundred reasons why they would´ve cut these two characters. Playing the racism and sexism card because of this sounds quite harsh to me.

  204. Herr Fick
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Mike Johnson:
    Herr Fick,

    Do they moderate the site?Then such mudslinging should be shut down with a warning, and then banning.Or perhaps they don’t take their roles as moderators seriously.And no, I do not think moderators have the responsibility to censor opinions.But I do think the moderators should demonstrate some sort of role modeling behavior when threads such as that one run seriously off the rails by publicly reprimanding classless posts that reflect badly on the entire community.Then again, maybe they didn’t shut it down because they agree that the actress’ casting doesn’t exactly match the textual description of the character in the books, and therefore they condone publicly insulting her on their website.Hard to tell since they seem oblivious to the threads on their own website.

    Interesting, that someone who obviously doesn’t know anything about the westeros.org community and its moderation standards, should defame Elio and Linda for something they had no part in.
    Compared to most fan community forums westeros.org has very high standards and some strict moderation policies while at the same time allowing dissent and even strong subjective statements of taste.
    Still, the casting threads on the board have been a low point in terms of niveau, since many teenagers and newbies feel obliged to post their knee-jerk reactions to HBO’s casting chaoices (“They ruined my perfect mental image!” aso asf). And, as I wrote above, many posts in that particular thread were juvenile and insolent. But this was true for casting discussions on winteriscoming.net, too. Maybe you remember NCW terrifyingly ugly nose…
    Casting discussions on fan boards often have to endure a relatively high number of low-level posts. But as you can see in the “Asha/Yara” thread, there were plenty of (experienced) users who called out the bullshit.

    And no, Elio and Linda don’t automatically agree with every opinion expressed by the 20000 members of their forum – you know that, I know that, and to insinuate that they do in this particularly ugly case is dishonest, cheap and lacking in style.

    By the way, yesterday Elio posted this in the respective thread:
    “Finally, the forum isn’t a place for people to go around insulting one another, and we expressly note that sometimes actors from the show read the forum and so we should act in that light, so chill out folks. Please refer to the rules for a concise look at what to do and what not to do. And if you think someone’s not abiding by them? There’s a report button to let the moderators know. ”
    And if I’m not mistaken, calls to edit and even some deletions have been handed out…

  205. Oi!
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    So basically your saying that D&D are alien and female since most of the characters from the book that were cut so far are male and white.

  206. Ivan Popić
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Steve Westenra:
    Ivan Popić,

    Thanks for answering my question! That is a bit disappointing, I have to agree, but I suppose in the grand scheme of things it’s not so a big a deal.

    Maybe I wouldn’t feel disappointed if it wasn’t one of my favorite scenes in Clash of Kings. However, some scenes in the books that I felt ambiguous about blow me off my feet in series so it is a case of you win some, you lose some.

    And in general, the series is a great and they have made a step forward from last year in production values.

  207. Jaime Lannister
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Madness. Madness and stupidity.

    – Lord Tywin Lannister

  208. userj
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    purplejilly: If you are going out of your way to find some work for characters with darker skin tones, why cut two of them?

    They didn’t go out of their way, in fact the just opposite. D&D literally made the castings for XXD and Salla open to actors of any race, and the best actors were chosen irrespective of race. They confirmed this in a recent interview.

  209. Marina Aurora
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Omg, wonderful reviews, truely! From so far I think season 2 is going to be great and stick closely to A clash of kings and some things from the third book. As far as the character Ygritte is concerned, she doesn’t appear as a major, important character, she is mainly introdused only, it is not until the next book she really gets a lots of attention, but anyways, I’m really excited to see Leslie’s performance of her as well, although I think her appereance was way too “pretty” to match how she is in the books, she should have looked a lot more homely, but as always, the performance and the personality is more important then the looks.

    Melisandre is also a character I’m excited to see, I really love this woman, she has become some kind of girlcrush of mine, haha, and I’m one of those who are really glad that Carice van Houten will play her, but I really think they could make her eyes look more redish, the same as I thought they could’ve done with the Targaryens in the last seasons, because they were meant to have purple or lilac eyes, honestly, I cannot really see the difficulity of adding that.
    I was not particulary happy with the actor they’d cast for Stannis though, he looked a lot skinner, and whimpier, weaker and more feeble than I had imagined by reading ACOK, but once again, I may be surprised, and I’m easily surprised.
    And I hear a lot of different opinions on the Onion Knight, ser Davos, personally I had though him to be some years younger, like in his late or early fourties and not so grey looking, but I’ve seen a couple of clips and such of him and from those little clips, he seems great, and as I know and Martin has said, the characters in the series are older than in the books, so I’m ok with it. I think Davos will be one of the new favorite characters especially for the male audience out there, this season If what I hear here and other places is true. Personally he never gained my love really much, but he’s really cool and down to earth, however. And Cunningham a talented actor.

    Brienne I also carry great expectations for. She is really one of the freaks of Westeros, alongside Tyrion, and I really love her character, she’s different, honest, kicks ass, a strong woman but with a good heart, and her apperenace is so interesting. I think the actress for her looks awesome.

    Some things I’m not soe xcited about is that they’ve put so many scenes, especially with Jeyne Westerling (who doesn’t really appear until the middle of the third book) and Robb Stark into this season, I think it quite unnecessary and the actor for Jeyne is a total failure of casting, not at all what I had imagined from the book.
    Harenhal and Dragonstone are the places I’m looking most forward to see first of all, and Quarth. I hope they really has captured the essence and feeling of the spookiness and largeness that is Harrenhal castle, I think many others also have those expectations.
    And I hope Danys dragons will look realistic and have no faults at all. And I really do not hope they will get the Unsullied in this season, if so, they have gone too far into the next novels, just saw from a videoclip a bunch of warriors who looked like the so called “Unsullied” and really hope they are someone else.

    I cannot wait. And for me, who live in Norway, really hope that I will get to download the first ep. really quickly after the official release.

    Oh, forgot to mention something.. Hate that Ros has more screentime than Dany, although there is little of her also in the book, but Ros, she has little more than none time in the books as well, I hate her, I really do not see why she gets so much screentime, she’s not important at all -.-

  210. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Marina Aurora:
    because they were meant to have purple or lilac eyes, honestly, I cannot really see the difficulity of adding that.

    D&D actually address this in the comentaries of the Bluray, they said that they did try with lenses, but the effect was not satisfying at all. In their own words, “actors do a lot of “acting” through the eyes, and the lenses were damaging the final result of the acting”. Or something like that ;)

  211. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    FAUSTUS, a modern retelling.

    2009: A dark and stormy night in the Hollywood hills…two writers BENIOFF and WEISS are musing over a laptop and pizza dinner on the fate of their developing television series.

    Benioff: I hope HBO greenlights our series. I want to bring A Song of Ice and Fire to the world’s attention.
    Weiss: I concur.
    Benioff: But oh how can we be sure if HBO will even like the pilot?
    Weiss: I concur.
    Benioff: And even if it gets greenlit, how can we be sure that we will not be cancelled a year or two down the road. It is HBO after all!
    Weiss: I concur.
    Benioff: The Martin fans will be on our side, at least those who aren’t crazy Purists *cough* Westeros *cough* But the average Joe? What will he care about an Iron Throne and a Littlefinger and a direwolf?
    Weiss: No way we can make this like the book verbatim. Impossible. Even George agrees with us on that. And killing off the main character isn’t going to go down well either. And the wolves how do we pull that off. CGI?
    Benioff: Just make sure that they don’t growl with their mouth open and we will be fine. Oh what to do? I will do anything to bring this gritty,gory, glorious deconstruction of high fantasy to life!

    *all of a sudden in a flash of fire and brimstone. a figure emerges from the darkness of Benioff’s office. The sickly smell of sulphur wafts through the air.*

    Benioff: Nightcrawler?
    Weiss: As if you will be allowed to touch that franchise again after Origins…what the fuck did you do to Deadpool anyway?
    Benioff: It was an adaptation! Sidebar: materializing demon in my house! So glad Amanda’s not home!
    Weiss:…and then there’s the Xavier cameo? Did Stewart even get a royalty cheque?
    Benioff: MY VICTOR CREED WAS PERFECT!

    *arguing*

    *Beelzebub completes his form and it is a beautiful red haired woman that kind of resembles a British burlesque actress*

    Beelzebub: Hey Hollywood writer fucks! You! *she points at at Benioff*
    Beelzebub: Troy was bollocks, sorry to tell you! Bana yay! Pitt nay!
    *points at Weiss* And you….wha, smashing shirt! Kingdom of Loathing well done mate!
    Weiss: Thank you..it’s about power.
    *Beelzebub rolls eyes*
    Beelzebub: Sure it is mate. And tits and ass and blood.
    Benioff: I know you…
    Beelzebub: So have many men, Cain, Judas, Attila,that Hitler wanker, Harvey Weinstein…but you can call me Esme. Beelzebub is so bloody Lord of the Flies y’know?
    Weiss: I concur.
    Esme: So let’s get down to business gents..you have a fancy of bringing ASOIAF to the magic box?
    Benioff: Oh god yes, but at what price Lord of darkness?
    Weiss: I concur.
    Esme: All right then what if I could make this happen?
    Weiss: That would redefine the supernatural. All logical forces are against it ever coming to be. It’s about power.
    Esme: So many obstacles lads! The pilot getting greenlit… Jennifer Ehle really?…what about Gillian Anderson? Also Lena Headey? Isn’t she a brunette?
    Weiss: I concur.
    Esme: Then you have production costs, pleasing fans and the Unsullied, the very concept that an adult fantasy series would never be taking seriously…really look it up, my mates Ginia and Neil know what they are talking about. You lads need a miracle.
    Weiss: So how?
    Benioff: Okay I know what’s going on here you want our souls right? Well I am not going to sacrifice my life, my integrity…
    Weiss: Me as well!

    *they go on and on angrily until Esme tires of this*

    Esme: Boys! Boys! Listen to me now. You got this wrong! I don’t want your bleedin’ souls. You retired those a long time ago heh-heh. Just takin’ the piss out of ye, your souls are fine. You would be surprised to find out what with all the lore and whatnot that with the ‘ception of some pretty boy tosser demon hunters every once and while messing up with our plans, Hell is a dreary place. Good pay mind you and a wicked health plan but overall…I want to get out, I want to do something.
    Benioff: So you don’t want your souls, and hell is dullsville, so what do you want in return?

    *Esme smiles and walks over to Benioff and seductively whispers in his ear*

    Benioff: So fame and critical acclaim, and just enough to keep more of the Purists at bay…
    Esme: ‘Cept Westeros. Not even God can protect you from their wrath.
    Benioff: …plus the strong prospect of longevity? And that’s all you want?
    Esme: Yep.

    *Benioff and Weiss confer*

    Weiss: Why this? Why not our souls?

    Esme: I want to make the fanboys squirm!

    Benioff: Done!

    Weiss. I concur. But I have a question, will Martin finish A Dream of Spring before the series is done?

    Esme: When hell freezes over! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! DONE! Enjoy boys! Remember our deal or Legend of the Seeker will be seen as Tolkien compared to the likes of you!

    Weiss: It’s about power.

    FINIS

  212. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    *back from the Ministry of Love*

    I love Ros. Those who criticize Ros or anything that has any connection to her are evil people! They do not love the show or D&D like we true GoT fans do, and all their opinions are invalid and should be moderated harshly. I hope D&D keep on inventing characters. Let’s get rid of unimportant people like colored prostitutes and Tullys.

    I also love the line “play with her ass”.

  213. purplejilly
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Ser Lurkalot: I also love the line “play with her ass”.

    Had I known assplay was the key to lesbian sex satisfaction sooner, my life could have been so much better!

  214. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Let’s flog this dead ‘un some more shall we? I absolutely hated that Ros repeated those horrid lines of Littlefinger’s when we first see her in ep 11. It’s like being spat in the face. But then the scene turns out to be very very good. Substitute Ros for Chataya and it would have been absolutely perfect. I know its too late for that, and that me writing this is an exercise in futility, but I feel the need to vent some nerd rage. I am a futile nerd.

    Sorry for keeping this tiresome thread alive, but since everyone else have moved on I see little harm in it. =)


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