The Los Angeles Times Show Tracker blog had a chance to interview Game of Thrones writer and executive producer D.B. Weiss recently. Weiss talked, among other things, about the post-production and visual effects on season two, their approach to adaptation, and addressed last season’s controversial brothel “training” scene.
On the current status of season two:
Yes, we are in post-production and getting it all ready as quickly as we can for the drop-dead dates when they pry it out of our cold, dead hands. We’ve got a couple of episodes locked and done and in the can, but we still have some work to do on the back end.
On their approach to adapting the books to TV:
Our approach has always been what we pitched to George at the very beginning: We’re adapting his entire series. The changes we make, taking something from one book and putting it in the middle of events from another book, are always at the service of the series as a whole — both George’s series and our series. Oftentimes an event from Book 2 will serve as a better end point for a character in Season 1 than it would as a starting point in Season 2.
This year there are definitely things we took from Book 3 and pulled them back a season and there are things we hold off on introducing from Book 2 to put in a later season and there are things, regrettably, there’s just no room to include at all. George, luckily, isn’t just a seasoned novelist. He’s also a seasoned television writer and he knows how the sausage is made and understands the sacrifices that often need to be made in the service of preserving the impact of a show as a whole.
On the controversial Littlefinger monologue and “training” session:
It’s a challenge you face getting inside a character’s head when you don’t have any of the novelistic devices George has at his disposal. Many of which are the equivalent of voiceover, telling us what a character is thinking. The Littlefinger scene was born from the necessity to learn who this person was behind the mask, and unfortunately this is someone who’s such a confident total game player that the truth about who he really is and what he’s really about is something he’s not going to reveal to the other game players he encounters over the course of his daily life. In this situation, the prostitutes serve as psychiatrists, which is the conception behind that scene and setting it where we set it and doing what we did with it.
On the visual effects in season two:
Visual effects definitely play a much bigger role in the show this season than it did last season. I don’t have a shot count in front of me, but I know those can be deceptive. Lots of visual effects shots are fixes. And one of the great things that we’ve learned this season was how to minimize those low-value fix shots by not needing the fixes to begin with … how to get the right blood spray that you want in production so you don’t need to add it in later. For every one of those you can save, it’s more money spent on a visual effects shot that people are really going to notice …. But we have such an amazing group of visual effects artists this year that you’re sometimes hard-pressed to remember what was real and what was added in later.
Be sure to check out the rest of the interview where Weiss talks about the season one box set, and addresses the previous reports over the length of a certain big battle scene.
Winter Is Coming: First time I think they’ve addressed the Littlefinger scene. Does knowing the thinking behind it change your opinion of the scene at all? Also, I am getting more and more excited about this season. It sounds like David & Dan are much more comfortable as showrunners and I think that is going to be evident in everything from the writing to the visual effects. Only 25 more days!
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122 Comments
First- yeh.
JenishQuote Reply
They r definitly speaking abt reeds…i cant digest that- we all love them,we all.., why not u, D&D :(
JenishQuote Reply
I think most understand the point of the Littlefinger “sexposition” scene. But it was not executed well.
Hopefully the amount of grief they have received for that scene improves their writing of similar exposition scenes in season 2.
LarsQuote Reply
Knowing the thinking behind it does allow me to give them a little more leeway, but I still say it was a fail as a scene and as a plot device, maybe because it was the first time they tried a trick like that. Allthough I’d hate to add more sexposition, I think it would have worked better if it had been LF one on one with his own personal trusted consort, in private, whoever that might be.
It still seems too odd that he spilled so much personal and important information to a stranger fresh off the turnip cart from Winterfell. With no thought that she might be someone’s spy? As suspicious as he was? After he just walked Ned around the garden, showing him the variety of different spies by all those other people? Telling him to trust no one? It was a good try but just didn’t work.
purplejillyQuote Reply
First time? Hardly… I guess they were good enough to make you not notice the other “sexposition” scenes. (bathtub w/ Doreah, all Ros scenes) The Littlefinger brothel scene was just the most obvious of them all.
LarsQuote Reply
I think in season 3 we will get to see the whole theon/ramsay story in real time as opposed to not seeing Theon for an entire 2 seasons and then having him show up again. I think this is why they held off on introducing Ramsay…
davidbcQuote Reply
OT: Has anyone seen any of the DVD Blu Ray commercials on TV. I saw one during Saturday Night Live and I thought it was really bad. Commercials like those will do a good job at reminding people who already saw the show that it’s out on DVD but they’re not going to get anyone who knows nothing about it interested in the show at all. HBO has done awesome job with the trailers for season 2, they are filled with nice lines of dialogue and more importantly awesome imagery of beyond the Wall landscapes, lots of fire,war explosions, even dragons, much better than any trailers they put together for season 1 and could get people interested in Game of Thrones who know nothing about it. But these DVD trailers seem like a completely random selection of images from the show strung together for a 30 sec TV spot. I know you can’t explain what the show is about in 30 sec but surely they could have put together a more visually striking trailer that does the show justice. HBO uploaded the TV spots to their youtube page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez86wO5CiLo&list=UUQzdMyuz0Lf4zo4uGcEujFw&index=1&feature=plpp_video
I guess it doesn’t really matter the show will have huge DVD Blu Ray sales anyway but if they put together better TV spots it get even more people interested in checking the show out.
JamesLQuote Reply
We already knew the thinking behind the Littlefinger scene, that does not excuse it for being written so completely out of character and being poorly executed.
sadliarQuote Reply
davidbc,
Yes. I think you’re right there.
And in answer to the sexposition question, I think we all knew the reasoning behind it, it’s not a mystery, but that still doesn’t excuse doesn’t the utter gratuity of the scene.
DeeQuote Reply
Other than it was too obvious that whenever Ros popped up they were going to hit us with some character background information, I never minded the LF scene. That said, since her role is apparently expanding in S2, I hope they find some better use for her.
FacelessManQuote Reply
The problem with the Littlefinger scene is it was totally out of character for someone like him. In the real world, a conniving game player like him would not trust even a psychiatrist, let alone two prostitutes who could/would spill the beans to someone else for the right amount of money. It was — and is — totally wrong for someone like Petyr Baelish to confide in anyone for any reason (other than he expects that what he’s telling them WILL get out in order to get a plan in motion). He trusts in no one other than himself and keeps everything close to the vest. While DB’s right in that causing a problem with explaining the motives of such a character, the way it was portrayed was one of the low points of the entire series.
Jan FennickQuote Reply
I do not mind them to take something from book 3 or set something back from book 2 as long as it is shown at all.
And I am not as naive to believe that I will get EVERYTHING I want, its still an adaptation.
Even though the key events should not been altered that much, otherwise I will miss a lot of things.
for example (Warning, HUGE SPOILERS)
that whole ramsay/roose thing. When Luwin spoke is last words to Bran I was shedding tears, I was shocked by that twist and from that day on i saw Ramsay as the main evil character in that whole series. And even though Roose killed Robb, ive never hated him nearly as much as I hate Ramsay. Should they leave him out and just give Roose that part, it would be a shame for that Ramsay charakter imho.
Also I still dont get the point of not casting reek/Ramsay. One more castmember of that importance for later on would not have been that much of a big deal I suppose. Just look at what they did with walder frey, if my mermory serves me right.
MichaelmannQuote Reply
Totally agree with Jan, purplejilly, and sadliar on the LF scene with Ros and Armica. I don’t buy Dan’s reasoning that LF is “so confident” that he’s arrogant enough to spill his past to two prosititutes in his employ. LF projects confidence but he is still smarting inside over Cat rejecting him all those years ago, and he would never spill his guts about it to two women he looks down on. I could see him saying those things only as a tool to manipulate someone else – but he is not one to bare his soul, especially to someone he would consider beneath him.
I get the reasoning behind the need for the exposition…but that one in particular was out of character and poorly done. The one between Viserys and Doreah was more believable.
persephone88Quote Reply
It could just as easily be about the Tullys as the Reeds. I think at the moment there’s more chance of the Reeds turning up in Season 3 than there is for Hoster Tully and the Blackfish (plus Riverun) turning up at all.
Edmure will probably turn up in Season 3.
MormegilQuote Reply
Book 1 is as close to a treatment of a screenplay as a novel can get – very visual and clearly from a writer who knows how to write cinematically. Whereas books 2 through 5 get increasingly literary. It makes sense when considering Martin’s career trajectory, how he’s been ever transitioning from screenwriter to novelist with this series. Therefore the writers on the show will have to take more liberties in their adaptation as the series goes on and for avid readers of the books, this should be a thrilling development after considering the several new scenes in the book 1 adaption. For me, Jaime and Tywin’s pow-wow before war, Varys and Littlefinger’s sparrings before council meets, and the Royal tell-all between Robert and Cersei – these were all wish fulfillment scenes. No longer did I read those books and wish I could be a fly on the wall for this… or a fly on the wall for that. For in this humble dork’s opinion, it’s in the additional scenes where the show runners and writers proved their fandom. So they’ve earned the benefit of the doubt leading into Season 2. Can’t wait to see what they’ve come up with.
Dee,
Michael JQuote Reply
Ug, my irritation with the Littlefinger scene was because having the information revealed at that point in the story is damaging. The entire episode works better WITHOUT knowing who littlefinger is. And it came off as such a Snidely Whiplash moustache twirling scene. Littlefinger is NOT supposed to be that kind of villain, and without that scene he doesn’t come across as one; but that scene strongly gives that impression and colors every other scene we see him in.
“The Littlefinger scene was born from the necessity to learn who this person was behind the mask”
Why do we need to learn who he is? You don’t even really learn that much in the book by this point. He’s meant to be enigmatic.
“It’s a challenge you face getting inside a character’s head”
We never go inside his head in the books. And frankly, I really don’t want to go inside his head.
Ug. So bad. The fact that Weiss tries to justify it just irritates me to no end. Just come out and admit it was a misstep.
I know there will be missteps in season 2, I just hope that none are as bad as the “LF twirls moustache” one.
salukQuote Reply
Exactly. That’s not confident, that’s careless. Littlefinger is anything BUT careless. Ros or the other girl could/would go running to first person who paid more (or threatened her) and spill all his plans. And that would be the end of LF. It makes no sense whatsoever.
It would have worked better as a voice over or just let alone — let’s face it, five books in and we’re still not 100% sure of what his motives/plans are. Which is more intriguing than the whole Super Villain trope of “Let me spill my guts now and tell you of my nefarious plans…” *sigh*
Jan FennickQuote Reply
I agree that the sexposition was sometimes clunky. However I wonder if some of the hate for the Ros and Littlefinger scene comes out of a prudish worry that it makes our favorite series to trashy to recommend to all our friends. How is it that frank depictions of sex can be literary in a book but are “porny” on HBO. One of the best things about the books is the characters are more human and real than in most fantasy books and real people have sex. While I hope we don’t have a scene like this one that takes us out of the flow of the narative I also hope they don’t take out all the sex in a misguided effort to make the show more “respectable”.
Who am I kidding it’s HBO there will be plenty of sex.
Maester BlasterQuote Reply
Mormegil,
hey, i m great fan of blackfish (actually i m great fan of every single character written by martin even that liddle man in that little cave on that rainy ngt) specially since blackfish show us tht he can actually swim… ;) they must cast edmure and blackfish.
But i think D&D know better and as they r consulting george & he might be giving them tips that some of the characters might have completed their journey of significance in series till ‘dance with the dragons’ and no further need of them other than few lines describing the knighthood and lands they get for their help in the adventure so D&D might cut them according to their ‘mass of significance’ or twist the storytale to save the extra casting and money and in this way series may stay ‘not much complicated’ to non readers.
JenishQuote Reply
Nah. It’s complete bs. The whole point of having a Littlefinger is he’s the character whose head you’re not supposed to get into. It was, and remains, a clumsy bit of mustachio-twirling, monologuing softcore.
Not that I really care at this point. And the rest of the interview was great.
Maxwell JamesQuote Reply
I don’t remember Littlefinger spilling any specific beans in that scene but I could be wrong? If memory serves me correctly, he spills HOW he operates more so than WHAT exactly his plans are. It’s not like the other characters (sadly, besides Ned and Catelyn) would trust Littlefinger farther than they could throw him anyhow, so it didin’t bother me that much in that regard.
However, it was still clunky and overwrought as a bit of character development- I feel they could have doled all of that out in separate scenes- maybe confiding with Cat about how he has learned from his past boyhood experiences with Brandon Stark?
bear islandQuote Reply
I meant the first sexposition when the speaker wasint involved in the act. HE was just watching other people do the sex. MAybe that should be called voyuer-sposition
purplejillyQuote Reply
Of all the moments for my dad and older brother to be sitting in the room watching with me, they were present for the LF “play with her ass” scene. I knew it was coming, since I had already seen the whole 1st season, but my brother and dad were catching up, so I walked out of the room and came back when I knew it was over. I couldn’t look my dad in the face, haha. And there are plenty of awkward moments in the season (which are really weird to watch with your brother >_>), but that was by far the worst.
I understand what they were trying to accomplish, but I don’t understand why it had to be while instructing these 2 whores how to do each other. I also and baffled why he would open up to Ros after only just meeting her. Perhaps he wants her to know his secret, knowing she may whisper to someone else?
All I can say is for season 2, I am watching each episode solo until I know for sure it is safe to watch with family members.
DreamlifeQuote Reply
Love the books, love the show but no amount of rationalizing will ever convince me that the Littlefinger brothel scene was in any way worthy of the rest of the series. I’m no prude and don’t really mind the acts being depicted, I just thought the entire scene was poorly written and executed. When you really look at the first season there are other Littlefinger moments that also seem out of character – “outing” Renly and Loras so publicly at the tournament comes immediately to mind. In the books Littlefinger is a very troubled and complicated character with some fairly disturbing motivations – I hope they keep that up for the show and don’t turn him into the mustache-twirler that so many posting here have commented about.
KQuote Reply
I actually didn’t mind any of the other sexposition scenes, but I just can’t believe Littlefinger giving fucking lessons to his best pair of whores while at the same time giving them a nice trip to his personal Department of Backstory. It just does not make sense. I could understand Theon bragging to Ros. I thought the Doreah/Viserys scene was actually pretty well done. But the brothel scene was awful.
CanaryQuote Reply
Is there anything in the books that states clearly that the the guy who killed Robb was indeed Roose, other than the evidence of his Bolton-ish cloak? Because to me it was really just some random guy.
ValyrianQuote Reply
Valyrian,
Yes. He said “Jaime Lannister sends his regards”, which was a direct quote from Roose’s private conversation with Jaime (although Jaime probably meant it in a less violent way at the time).
mummerQuote Reply
Can’t wait to watch this scene with my mom.
KnurkQuote Reply
I’m getting more comfortable with the changes over time. I still wish they could afford to not make so many changes; but I accept that in exchange for seeing these books brought to life on the screen, I must deal with some things I might not like. In the end, I think we get the better part of the deal in the compromises which must be made.
LangkardQuote Reply
Honestly, changes don’t bother me as long as they are well written and make sense. If I want canon, i’ll go read the books.
TheBullQuote Reply
Not even Ian McShane/Al Swearengen–best pimp in the history of television– could have made that scene work.
MegQuote Reply
The “infamous” Littlefinger scene was very much a book reader creation. Just look at the comments in this thread: “Littlefinger wouldn’t give that information away to whores. That’s not the kind of person he is. In the books he is this and that, etc.”
Those are clearly comments about book Littlefinger, not TV show Littlefinger. Because in the TV show, that IS who he is. When Al Swearengen was giving away similar backstory and plot points in essentially the exact same way on Deadwood, no one was crying, “Al would never do that!” because they didn’t come into the show with a preconceived notion of who Al was. It only makes the show better to give the writers and actors of GoT that same respect.
GreatjonQuote Reply
davidbc,
spoiler tags please!
If It PleaseQuote Reply
“and there are things we hold off on introducing from Book 2 to put in a later season”…
I really hope he’s talking about Ramsay right there. Could be talking about the Reeds, but I’m still holding out hope for the Bastard o’ Bolton.
Varamyr FourskinsQuote Reply
Yep, most likely this is Ramsay. The father has been cast for season 2 already, so the bastard would likely not be completely dropped.
And the Reeds (or characters filling the same function) could be introduced in season 3.
LarsQuote Reply
Lars,
They better have Ramsay… Ramsay is just pure evil. He has an obsession with torturing people, breaking their spirits and humiliating them. He also loves hunting people via having naked women run through the forest with half a day head start before he hunts them down, kills them and rapes them (or sometimes vice versa). Then skinning them, feeding their remains to his dogs and naming new hunting dogs after those females he has hunted and skinned that gave him the most sport. He is a very interesting character. He makes Cersei look like a good natured, fun loving, kind woman…
I bet Ramsay will be introduced is season 3 along with at least Meera Reed. They can easily have Meera play the role as Jojen as well. I think it will be very important to give Bran a love interest. I know they are young but you know what I mean. He needs a cute frogspear girl to exchange awkward stares with and become close to in a romantic way. Someone to also help him seek out the 3 eyed crow while explaining to him and helping him master his skin changing powers along the way… I really liked the little flirts and interaction between Meera and Bran. IMO Martin also hinted that Bran will slip into Hodors skin and hold her and have a phisical relationship with her that way in the future.
ArthurQuote Reply
This interview also makes me a little upset. When ever I hear the producers talk about the “visual effects”, they always seem to act like its some welfare child that they had to set a little money aside for. I mean, yeah I know its just a TV series and they don’t have a 200 million dollar budget for a 2 hour movie. Their budget is what, 20 million I think for 10 hours? Yeah it has got to be tough. But still, if you are going to do something, like a fantasy series, you have to set aside ample funds for the visual effects you will need to incorporate the fantasy element. Everything they have done so far is top notch. From adapting from book to tv series, to casting people to perfectly fit the characters, wardrobes, background, everything I can think of is top notch. That newest 1 second clip of Grey Wind looked awesome. Yeah maybe he was growling without baring fangs, thats fine I can look past that tiny little detail. I just hope all the dire wolf and dragon shots look as good as Grew Wind did. It would be a shame to have such high quality in every aspect of this series except the fantasy creatures involved.
If they need more money for the visual effects then ask HBO. I am sure if they explain that they are going to need more and more CGI as the series progresses HBO will understand. What is going to happen when Jon Snow meets up with all the fantasy elements he finds beyond the wall? CGI is going to play a larger and larger role. You shouldn’t have to cut corners during filming to put towards the visual effects.
I remember the producers themselves when asked what will season 2 be like. they said something like “Dire Wolves and Dragons”. If they themselves knew this was to be the case then why does it constantly seem like very little funds were invested towards these dire wolves and dragons?
Sorry, I just needed to vent and get that off my chest…
ArthurQuote Reply
Arthur,
You think they didn’t have a large budget because they didn’t ask for it? Come on now. HBO will do what they think is financially beneficial for them, regardless of whether they understand or not.
TheBullQuote Reply
Only real problem I have with the Brothel scene is that I can’t really watch it with anyone else, without getting embarrased.
Littlefinger in the TV-show does not have to be an exact copy of Book-Littlefinger, so no real prob. And I thought the overdone moaning was a bit funny, as I suppose it was meant to be – the characters are learning to “fake it” after all. It was fine. I even think the Play with her ass-thing “had” to be there for some progression in the scene. Yeah, laugh all you want – if they we’re gonna continue going at it for a minute or whatever it was without contributing with more to the scene than just sex, they needed to step it up a notch, so to speak. They could have gone further too, for that matter. Not necessarily saying they should.
sjweningsQuote Reply
Knowing the thinking behind the whore training scene doesn’t change my opinion at all . It only reinforces it . Their thinking was fairly obvious to anyone who had read the books , and perhaps my main complaint about the scene was that it made LF too obvious , too soon . A lot of the fascination of that character in the books is that when you first meet him you don’t know..and you gradually become more and more suspicious, and his nastiness is revealed bit by bit.
ETA: sjwnings..I think it was more like 4 minutes. overkill.
In a movie, you wouldn’t have time to do the slow reveal , but there’s much more time in a series ,and I think it would have been quite OK – even preferable to have left him more ambiguous ’til season two.
Secondarily ,I did and do still feel the sex went on for too long and was too noisy..but my objection was never that there was sex. Much more subtlety was called for all around.
ObsidianQuote Reply
One thing is on my mind for a long time about the changes in the show. Why did they show Grand Maester Pycelle faking? I cant remember that he was faking in the books. I don’t even think we were given a slightest hint about it. Do you think D&D have some purpose for that.
For the readers, we know what the faith is of Pycelle in ADWD.
But i’m really hearthbroken by the Reeds. I don’t think they need them anymore judging by the trailers.
kindly manQuote Reply
kindly man,
I like the Pycell faking scene. It shows Pycell as a Player too.
Book readers know that he is never a Player like Varys or Littlefinger, but he has his own Game.
In the Books you think a long time he poised Jon Arryn and later in the “Shagga the Barber” scene Tyrion learns that he is a Player. A worse.
I like Ros, the actor and her purpose. She is used to show an authentic medieval scenario. I like that Theon try to get tribute from someone, even if it is a whore. Her journey to KL is ok. All book readers hate the sexposition scene because it is so out of character for Petyr. And for some Viewers this was too much sex (I must grin while I read your comment @Dreamlife).
BUT we all know the reason for this scene long time ago! That D & D don’t say this was a misstep is okay (that how the business works), but I really hope that they have the opinion and don’t think the end justifies the means.
I’m curious how she will in season two. Many (include me) suggest that she changes her loyalty to Varys and plays Alayayas part.
For the tournament scene I’m not sure. If Petyr want to get influence over Renly (and I can image he will) he must do his ‘threat’ in public, because in private Renly can strike back (He is the brother of the king, nobody speak without respect to him!). But Petyr shows Renly ‘Hey, I know your secret, don’t anger me or I throw you in a scandal’ and Renly can’t counter in public without wake cause tongues to wag. So I think this was a good move.
24 Days to go. It’s like Christmas.
No-OneQuote Reply
Grand Maester Pycelle is revealed as being at least a peripheral schemer in the second book.
Specifically, Pycelle is working for Cersei: Tyrion feeds different information regarding Myrcella to a number of different people, and it’s revealed that Pycelle blabs to Cersei. This is what leads to Pycelle getting his beard shorn and being thrown in the dungeon.
Having Pycelle revealed as faking in the last episode of this season is a hook for the next season – his involvement in season 2 now doesn’t come completely out of left field
Ax0rQuote Reply
I have an important question: was anyone cast to play Stannis’s wife in season 2? or has she been cut out of the story?
HERP-DERPQuote Reply
HERP-DERP,
In the last Trailers you see a woman in the ‚Burning of the Seven’- scene. Maybe she is supposed to be Queen Selyse Florent. But we haven’t a Casting clue. She could be the next ‘Jeyne Poole’ ;-)
No-OneQuote Reply
Wouldn’t it have been wonderful if instead of Littlefinger telling Sansa the Hound’s backstory, he’d told her the story of his fight with Brandon (without explicitly saying he loved Catelyn, but the implication is there)- easily done, she just has to ask if he’s ever been in a tourney.
That way we would have kept Littlefinger being creepy towards Sansa but the Hound could tell his story himself. And we’d get the important elements of Littlefinger’s background (from a lesser house, can’t stand up to the tough guys in a fight, quietly resentful and ambitious) without needing to blatantly state his ambition, or any of the unnecessary prostitute training to liven up the background.
it would even foreshadow a little his later teaching her politics (while moving beyond creepy into manipulation and grooming)
Quietly writing that scene in my head now.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
I think it’s great to finally get words from the person who is actually making this thing happen. Not the pretty boy(the other D) or our beloved fat man. The guy who has truly put his heart and soul into this project. Notice the pic above, it says it all, he has the headphones on. Tough questions and great response from someone who truly knows the film process. Quit talking about Little Finger and give this man the credit he deserves.
MeekyReekyRamsayQuote Reply
Obsidian,
Awww, sorry LF’s “nastiness” wasn’t revealed slowly enough to please you.
Also, “secondarily,” really? smh
UGH yourself, since you are ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY AND ONE BILLION % WRONG!!!!!!!!! The details of LF’s youth were revealed much earlier in the book than in the show. (A Game of Thrones – Catelyn IV)
sadliar:
We already knew the thinking behind the Littlefinger scene, that does not excuse it for being written so completely out of character and being poorly executed.
Spoken like a true bookreader. Who gives a fuck what the television audience needs to know, right?
Jan Fennick,
purplejilly,
sadliar,
Maxwell James,
Meg,
K,
perhaps you would enjoy a more fantastic reality than this. I believe Scooby-Doo has slightly less lesbian anal tho. I’m sure you’ll figure it out :)
the goatQuote Reply
Dontos hasn’t been cast either, has he? Kind of a tertiary character at best but he still does serve an important role in the Sansa arc.
This is just the madness in me but I have a weird feeling that his role might be taken over by Ros.
Ser_GQuote Reply
Ser_G,
Don’t worry be happy.
http://winteriscoming.net/2011/09/dontos-hollard-casting-leaks/
No-OneQuote Reply
To avoid hard feelings, here’s a re-post of the kids singing the theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t92ukx0A2fk
the goatQuote Reply
Greatjon,
People on this thread may be hanging on to who “book Littlefinger” is because as the books go on his character becomes even more integral and to change his methods or motivations even slightly now could have big implications to the story arc down the road. Besides, even if the scene in question was perfectly in keeping with his character, I still think it was very poorly executed and stands out as one of the weakest things to happen all season.
KQuote Reply
I feel this sentiment is overblown by fans (particularly LF fans). Don’t forget, LF brags to no less than three people, in public, how he deflowered Catelyn and Lysa. Also, once he has Sansa under his power, he blabs a ton of stuff to her. Which, of course, will come back and be his undoing in the end. The thing about LF is that he is fairly megalomaniacal – he thinks he is untouchable, unbeatable, everyone else are worms or puppets on strings.
For him to say he was in love with someone and that he plans to “fuck them all”! Isn’t exactly specific enough to be out of character.
userjQuote Reply
Greatjon,
Exactly. People need to separate the two mediums. I have seen far worse use of sex and nudity in better shows/films than this scene with Littlefinger.
RygarQuote Reply
How many characters in the Essos storyline are essential to the overall series? A lot of new characters are introduced over there as the books go on, so by weighing this against the importance of the Reeds and Tullys and how much money hbo can spend on new cast memeber, we can probably develop odds on what characters will be included and what characters will be sent to Ser Illyn
Edit: Forgot to mention Dornish characters too
Ted furthmanQuote Reply
@the goat
That’s somewhat funny, since our complaint derives from LF being portrayed like a skooby-doo villain rather than a realistic character.
No one but you complained about the sex, so try working on your reading comprehension.
sadliarQuote Reply
Months later, I still love the brothel scene.
NousWandererQuote Reply
NousWanderer, agreed! Your breakdown of the scene was brilliant and turned me from a detractor to a proponent of it. Hope you can continue to be active in our episode discussions again.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
You know, you don’t have to be nasty just because we have an opinion different from yours. We aren’t saying your opinion isn’t worthwhile, and we aren’t saying your opinion is wrong. We’re just saying we have a different point of view, and we were expressing it, as we were invited to do by our Lord and Master!
Mature and respectful people should be able to have a conversation about entertainment (or any topic), and what they like and don’t like about it without resorting to insulting or denigrating someone who views the topic differently.
And I’m not trying to be mean to you here, either, I am just making a statement and a request for everyone who participates here to think about this, and to try and have fun discussing your opinion, without getting mean, personal, or disrespectful to those with a different view.
purplejillyQuote Reply
Be careful! He uses his evil Nous Magic to bewitch readers!!
purplejillyQuote Reply
I’m all about the different mediums as art forms with different elements and interpretations, but D expressly states the brothel scene was an effort to elaborate on the book LF. It just didn’t work for many of the reasons people have mentioned above. It kind of bothers me that he doesn’t see it as a misstep, because that could mean we’re in for more of the same. If so, I hope they get better at it.
For me, it’s not a problem between book story vs. TV story, or nudity. Several of the other additions/differences in Season 1 from the book were done brilliantly: The conversation between Cersei and Robert, and Ned seeing Arya and directing Yoren in the Baelor scene are two that come immediately to mind. HBO usually credits its audiences better than that. They are masters at allowing ambiguity and complex characterizations. So, yeah. The brothel scene was the only big criticism I had with Season 1 (I would have liked more Robert/Ned backstory, and more battles, but I understand the limitations and thought they did the best they could with those elements).
The bottom line for me was that it was just so obvious, out of character, lazy and unimaginative. Those other scenes that worked and were different from the book were very imaginative.
PatDQuote Reply
Dunno, I’ve always found the brothel scene to be surprisingly ‘in-character’ for Littlefinger. To each his own, I guess.
I personally thought his speech was brilliantly placed and executed; as for the rest, I didn’t find it over the top, but then again I am used to seeing rather explicit scenes and so are the people around me (none of my friends found it cringe-worthy either). *shrug*
MachaQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
can u plz link to his breakdown of the scene? herp derp
HERP-DERPQuote Reply
No, we really don’t.
EdQuote Reply
I honestly don’t care how long the battle is, but his quote here has me puzzled:
“Oh wow, somebody is actually timing it.” I’ve watched this episode through
maybe 15 times. We certainly couldn’t put a number on it.”
What does he mean they couldn’t put a number on it? It starts, it ends. How long was it?
(shake my head)
EdQuote Reply
Ed, I’m guessing that the battle isn’t just one straight sequence, but is intercut with other scenes, which would make it harder to calculate exactly how many minutes are spent just on the battle.
HERP-DERP, there are actually two comments, you can find them here and here.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
To me that Littlefinger scene “Play with her a$$”, was very awkward and out of place. I understand the idea that Littlefinger needs to reveal his past to the TV audience by talking to whores. But it was a little weak. You could tell that they just wanted to throw in some T and A scene and used that as an opportunity. I remember sitting there and I was angry because to me they could have used that precise time showing the Dany/Drogo drama playing out or something much more important.
You got to remember, GoTs has other shows to compete with like ‘Californication’ and ‘Spartacus’ to mention a few. And sexuality in both those shows are far more up front and center then in GoTs. I honestly think this was an attempt to have some raw sexuality like those shows do., however I do wish it was done in a more clever way.
Tyrion gets to visit some really extravagant whore houses in season 2. I hope they give us our required dose of sexuality via this encounters. After all Martin does have a very adult, raw way of describing things and sexuality is just a small part of the books. But it is definitely there in all its adult, raw-like glory…
ArthurQuote Reply
re: Littlefinger’s monologue: For some characters I completely understand that they need to fill in information that in the books would have been internal monologue and thoughts. The thing with Littlefinger is we really DON”T need to know his inner thoughts because we never get them in the books either. He hasn’t been a point of view character, so it is entirely possible they could have revealed information about him the same way they did in the books.
It’s also a stretch to think that just because Littlefinger owns brothels, that he personally directed individual prostitutes “training”. He doesn’t come across as someone with a love life to speak of in the books who would have expertise in that area to share. As master of coin, with far reaching plans of his own, I think he has more important things than micromanaging whores to spend his time on, much less sharing his inner motivations with them. It would have almost been more believeable if he delivered the content of the monologue in a conversation with Varys, since if he is that flippant about who is sharing his thoughts with, it probably got back to Varys anyway.
It’s also a direct contradiction to his behavior later with Sansa, where he tells her they have to continue to play the part of father and daughter even when alone because you never know who is listening.
TCQuote Reply
Speaking of reviewing, I went to Larry Williams (Otakuassemble) Channel, to try and find some updates about GoT and what he’s going to be reviewing and when, etc, and I found an update that talked about his comic book, Bersek, and GoT. It’s a long video, 20 or 30 mins long, anyway he starts off with a short talk about the progress of his comic book, then switches to the topic of “Berserk”, and then he goes on a long, intense, impassioned ten minute rant about how he is NOT going to review Berserk, he doesn’t want to talk about it, he doesn’t want to hear about it, people might think they have the right to request what he reviews, but in words we remember, he is basically says that Larry Williams is not your bi*** (lol), and he went on and on and on about Berserk and why he won’t review it. Which now has me curious as all get out. Does anybody know what Berserk is, and what it did or what it contains to have made Larry so angry about it, and so anti-Berserk? I HAVE to know what all this Berserk controvery is about! But I am afraid to ask Larry.. Here’s the link if you want to see. Then he does get to a short GoT update where he basically says he is not going to read the books until the series is over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbvRF9yfAkU
purplejillyQuote Reply
purplejilly, it’s some anime film. On a related note, I heard that someone spoiled the RW for Larry? Does anyone know if that is true? That’s disappointing, if it is.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
In regards to the ‘sexposition’ scene – as others have already voiced, that was not exactly a revelation. I think we all understood what was intended and the reasoning behind it (what else could possibly have been the reason, after all?), it’s just that it doesn’t make sense to me. Littlefinger is notorious for being secretive to the absolute extreme. I understand the difficulty of fleshing out his character and motives under the constraints a TV adaptation inherently presents, but it could have been executed better. If they really were serving as ‘psychiatrists’, could they maybe NOT have been faking orgasms while listening? So loudly? It’s like listening to a doctor’s prognosis while singing ‘I’M HENRY THE EIGHTH IIIIII AM!!~’ in his/her face the whole time.
Rant over.
OmittedQuote Reply
I never had any issues or problems with Littlefinger’s “brothel monologue”…LOL! I’m comfortable with nudity and sexuality both on the screen and otherwise. I think that there are far more “controversial” things happenning in this world and everyday life than a scene on a TV show!
But if you want to discuss disturbing, I’m disturbed by shows such as those on TLC where little girls are called beauty queens, sexualized, made to dress in provocative outfits, parade in front of adults and either dance provocatively or do many, many other questionable acts! Or the dance show on Lifenetwork/Slice (in Canada) where I saw a scene (on “The Soup”) when the “dance instructor” is yelling at tweener girls telling them to think about dancing in a way that would make the audience “want them”! To my mind that is trully discusting and “controversial”… and far more disturbing than anything I’ve seen on “Game Of Thrones”…but many people seem to dismiss any and all concerns about those kinds of shows… in hindsight, Littlefinger and his unsinkable whores look downright normal and sane!
I’m also glad that D.B. Weiss poured some cold water over our collective euphoria! We must remember that there is no guarantee that HBO won’t cancel or abandon the show at some point! That possibility looks a bit less likely due to the show’s success and popularity, but nevertheless we would do well to not take anything for granted!
I’m glad they are committed to adapting the entire ASOIF saga, and that they envision an 8 season show (though personally I don’t think that the show should go beyond 7 seasons)! But there are many facts to take into account for such longevity, which as of yet remains wishful thinking! I will breathe easier when the last season of the show has been greenlit, until then I won’t take anything for granted, and will be greatful or each and every season I see brought to screen!
Remember, he said that Season Three has not yet been officially approved by HBO…
loco73Quote Reply
Gonna have to agree on this one! I HATE those f&%king shows!
EdQuote Reply
purplejilly,
“Beserk” was originally a Manga and then was turned into an anime. And then turned into comic books. It is a really epic anime, kind of like ‘Claymore’. Speaking of Claymore, I really loved Claymore. Anyone that hasn’t checked that out do yourself a favor and watch the series. Season 3 changes slightly from the Manga episode “Invasion of Pieta”, then takes a totally different turn from the Manga after that. But besides that it was great!
I am a huge anime fan and I have seen that Martin likes to draw. I was hoping at some point he would license an anime company to make a huge series out of his books. That would be awesome! A big advantge of anime is that everything can be done, that we read in the books. No limits! You want to see dragons and dire wolfs, a good anime will make them appear flawlessly awesome. You want to see a huge battle, it can be done. No worries about budget.
Anyway, off topic again. ‘Claymore’ is the original ‘Underworld’ type series. But instead of werewolfs and vampires you are dealing with flesh eating demons called “Yoma’.
And I hope someday Martin lets a top-notch anime company draw out his books… =)
ArthurQuote Reply
You’re supposed to hate them. Those shows are carefully crafted in a way to make you hate the mothers of those little girls, and want to tune in every week to see what awful things they are doing this time. It may be unscripted, but it certainly isn’t unplanned or unedited or un-manipulated.
MWQuote Reply
Wow, Berzerk, yeah that show is pretty insane. I still need to read the manga, but it’s definitely a story that pulls no punches. I wonder why Larry is so against it.
Those details are not what I object to. It’s the idea from the interview that they needed a way to reveal what Littlefinger is thinking that I take issue with. Also, maybe I need to watch the scene again, it offended me when I first watched so maybe it’s not as bad as I remember :)
salukQuote Reply
My two cents:
Everyone I watched the show with (5 or 6 people) disliked the LF scene. Myself included. Not because of the graphic nature, but because it was just too over-the-top, awkward, and uncomfortable. Not sexy. And yes, it felt out of character and (for me) ruined the surprise twist of Littlefinger’s betrayal of Ned. I understand the motivation behind it, but for me, the scene is a definite misstep.
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
I don’t think it necessarily spoils that he’s going to betray Ned. He says he will F them all and helping Ned could have done that, had Ned accepted his plan. I actually think that’s the case; that Littlefinger would have helped Eddard if he had managed to convince him to take the throne as Protector of the Realm. That would have given Littlefinger a better position of power to move on from than what he got by helping the Lannisters, and a ruler he could manipulate far more easily (both because Ned isn’t used to that game, and because he would surely trust Littlefinger completely by then).
The good things about Littlefinger is that he isn’t written as the character that always succeeds with his plans, he’s written as the guy that always have several plans in motion and when one falls through he walks away unscathed with another.
As for the scene not being sexy, I didn’t even think it came off as being intended to be sexy.
Tywin’s BastardQuote Reply
Tywin’s Bastard,
Right on! I totally agree with you. Littlefinger does what he must to stay in good grace on the side of the controlling family.
Eddard, love him to death, was just out of place and had no idea what he was dealing with. Eddard was just an honorable man, a warrior. He was totally outmatched in the political arena. Littlefinger is one of the top dogs in the political arena battlefield. He knows every angle and wields his wits better then any warrior can wield a sword.
That “play with her a$$” scene was the writers trying to communicate this to the TV audience. Littlefinger will lose in hand to hand combat, but that is no longer his game. He is a witty bastard that is playing that political game that no Eddard can understand.
It’s called, The Game of Thrones…
I do agree that whole scene was very awkward and not thought out very well.
ArthurQuote Reply
No Argument there! I wince and look away even when they are mocked on The Soup. I wish The Soup wouldn’t even show anything from them, because it sort of gives them more exposure, ya know? *shudder*
Thanks to all who gave me the Berserk/Beserk details! WiC, I will see if he says anything about being spoiled about the RW. That would be absolutely awful if they did..
purplejillyQuote Reply
the goat,
I was about to say something regarding LF´s scene but then I read your burst and thought “what for?”. I can´t stop thinking you’re the kind of fan who makes other people (who likes the series or books) desists to come here to express their opinions.You could be really blind and insulting. If all the fans were like you this site would be very bland. Just ¡yay! all the time. Pity, because you are fun too.
To be honest, this happens a lot here (I know, you all would say this is my own fault but it´s tiring being forced to defend your opinions from the insults so I’d rather read some and move on).
And the truth is the cranky humor of some people here is not very colorful.
I say this in the other way around too when people get too critical over whatever this site produces.
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
Don’t worry about defending your opinion to some of these people. I have tried taking on all comers with polite logical answers and I was called names and insulted. Then I got banned for derailing the thread.
So just take it in stride. Put what you think about anything GoTs out there. Maybe defend your opinion once or twice then just move on. Most of the people here are cool and will respectfully disagree with you on one topic then 2 days later help defend you on another.
Don’t take it personal like I have or it can get out of control and even if you’re the logical, respectful person the blame will still get cast on you for fueling the fire of all the narrow minded fans on here that are “pro” everything GoTs and aren’t ready for any kind of criticism, even if it’s obviously justified…
ArthurQuote Reply
andrea,
ah the woes of fandom Andrea. Sycophants, trolls, haters, there’s no avoiding them.
what you did is what we call ‘spamming’, as in repeating your (not so polite and logical as you might think yourself) arguments over and over and over and over again until even the people who were agreeing with you ended up disagreeing with you, because everyone hates spam.
KnurkQuote Reply
Knurk,
Really? Maybe to you it was spamming because you were looking at it from your own lil world POV. But I was talking to many people who continuously were trying to argue and attack me. But hey you call it what you want. Everyone sees things differently and very few people see past their own POV. Thats why there is something called “average”. Average is what the majority of the population are in all aspects, including perception and intelligence.
ArthurQuote Reply
Arthur,
you know I never had to defend my opinions here, perhaps clarify something once, but was a matter of languages, things lost in traslation. I´ve said all kind of things so I´m probably not talking about me. I just don´t do it now because it bores me to think what will happen after and doesn´t have a point ultimately. Other people say what I want to say and that´s enough for me. I never take it personal, I just think blindness it´s a pity Don´t quarrel with Knurk please, he´s not precisaly blind nor average. He just speaks his mind sincerely.
andreaQuote Reply
Knurk,
yeah, you´re probably right. I visit this site for almost a year now. I need more experience maybe.
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
I am just saying all my posts in that stupid “growl gate” we’re in self defense of myself from other posters either arguing or attacking me…. To you it may have been spamming. To me it was talking to many people and arguing about minor points and details about the same issue.
That won’t happen again I have learned to back off…
ArthurQuote Reply
is a fun way to explain what happened I guess. Don´t be mad. I know, I read about that growl gate and was surprised about your energy for explaining yourself with everybody. Now you know that you don´t need to do that. That´s what I´m talking about, no one should have to explain themselves.
andreaQuote Reply
I didn’t mind the brothel scene. I felt like it showed the viewers that LF is quite crazy and has a very twisted view of love. To me, cinematically, it worked fine. Ros wasnt really listening to him in the first place and I got the sense that the other whore didn’t understand the language. I think in a show like this with a large ensemble cast you need to reveal bits and pieces of secretive characters to keep people’s interest. I also don’t remember him revealing any real sensitive info either. Just that he loved Cat and lost a duel for her hand, and some stuff about being deceptive, none of this would be news to the Starks.
AntmanQuote Reply
When I think about it. I really didn’t mind the Littlefinger scene to much either. I mean I wasn’t offended in any way by it. It was just awkward. I think if Ross was played by an actress with curves that I was attracted to I might have enjoyed it. She has a pretty face and nice breasts but no a$$, no thighs or hips…
Yeah, I am being very shallow and thinking like a typical male. But it is the truth. I just don’t find her attractive. Give me a woman with some hips, thighs and a big booty and that “play with her a$$” scene would have been worth watching =)
That skinny chicks does nothing for me! =)
ArthurQuote Reply
loco73,
I’m sure many people must complain about the shows you mention. I would never watch them, myself. I find the whole reality show scene disturbing even without the content you point out. I didn’t know they existed.
But of course they’re not likely to be mentioned them here , because this site is for discussing GOT. WiC asked if now knowing D&D’s thinking behind the scene altered our opinions any ( to which I guess the answer is ..uh , probably not ).
It seems most of us who object don’t do so because sex appeared on our screens ( although many of us would have preferred it to be more subtle ) but more so to the character development at that stage of the series ..and many of us feel that the particular character would not have been so revealing to prostitutes to begin with.
But no matter how often we say it , many people want to think we’re narrow minded prudes who shrink at the sight of flesh , and want to believe everyone popped up in a cabbage patch . WE WOULDN”T BE WATCHING , if that were the case.
ETA: Those caps are not yelling at you , loco..they’re just stressing to all and sundry that the described reactions to our opinions are often pretty insulting.
ObsidianQuote Reply
My post was lost ?!?! Phooey.
Hah! sorry..not lost , just in limbo for a bit.
Goodnight.
ObsidianQuote Reply
*sigh* I know I shouldn’t even be answering this….
Arthur,
Here’s a friendly advice. These comments will only discredit you on this board; they’re in very bad taste and unnecessary, no one really wants to know what you get off on, not to mention that judging a scene from that perspective does make you look like a 12-year old who’s just discovered porn. There is a time, a place and a way for speaking your mind and this really wasn’t the case.
Oh and before you respond (because I know you’re dying to have the last word, as all young people do :) ), this isn’t an attack on my part, you don’t have to ‘defend’ yourself, you just have to think twice before posting this type of comment in the future. Well, maybe not ‘have’, but ‘should’.
Thanks.
now ON-TOPIC:
I’d really love to hear GRRM’s take on the brothel scene sometime. I can understand book readers thinking that LF would never imperil himself in such a manner. On the other hand, knowing that the producers are also huge fans of the book and have more knowledge about the future of the series than the rest of us personally puts me at ease with their decisions, so far at least. I guess it also has to do with how attached one is to canon, in general. I, for one, am at ease with adaptations and like to be surprised. Maybe that’ll dramatically change my initial perception of some characters, maybe it will only enrich it, maybe it will create two separate versions that can co-exist in my head. I’m all for enjoying the ride.
MachaQuote Reply
Macha,
I find it really funny and amusing that whenever someone mentions anything about a woman’s body or something sexual on this board they are considered “12yrs old” and attacked by some self proclaimed righteous person. I guess Martin is 12yrs old too huh. I mean the way he writes about sex and stuff. Oh, I guess the writers and directors are 12yrs old too, the way they write scenes showing naked women! I guess anyone who talks about girls with their clothes off is 12yrs old. Littlefinger most of all most be less than 12yrs old too! He is so immature OMG!!!
My comment on the opinion of an actress not being very sexy was in bad taste? Says who? You? That is pretty funny. The only one acting 12yrs old around these boards are people that respond to the mere fact of someone mentioning naked woman and calling them 12yrs old. I am not going to argue or have a war with you. It doesn’t matter to me what someone who places themselves on such a high pedestal of righteousness thinks of my posts or age.
I got some advice for you. Grow up, sexuality, woman, and a mans opinion on these matters is something that has been going on and happening since the dawn of civilization
As far as your pathetic attempt at a preemptive strike to anything I may post as a response, trying to be clever saying “Oh and before you respond (because I know you’re dying to have the last word, as all young people do :)”. I doubt that young people are the only people who feel the urge to respond to weak attacks on their credibility. I mean, I don’t like to punch down but the whole premise that I am 12yrs old because I think the actress that plays Ross isn’t very attractive is something that really makes me laugh. Thanks for the morning laugh!!! =)
ArthurQuote Reply
Arthur,
You are right to speak your opinion regarding sexuality, but the fact that you do proves how new you are to this board. With few exceptions there are many people here who respect the opinions and feelings of others, it’s what sets us apart from IMDB, Ain’t It Cool News and to a lesser extent Westeros.Org.
There is also a lot of women on these boards, some of them single, definitely several wives and mothers from various different backgrounds with different attitudes towards life so what Macha is telling you and what other people will be telling you if you persist in your comments you will make more enemies on this board than friends. At minimum no one will put much stock in your comments due to the sophomoric content of your previous posts. If that doesn’t bother you fine, but you reap what you sow.
You want talk about girls? Talk amongst your buddies or in any of the male dominated chat rooms….OR you could be a little more tactful eg: “Emilia is beautiful” as opposed to ” I like her boobs and ass”. You can even use a little innuendo or an eyebrow raise, but blatant dehumanization and objectification is no good. Just a thought.
It’s called respect.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Arthur,
I think you misunderstood Macha… you were called 12 years old because you cannot possibly have hit puberty yet. You find Ros unattractive!?! are you FREAKIN KIDDING ME! “no a$$, hips or thighs” LOL… HAVE YOU TAKEN A LOOK AT THE REST OF HER BODY(i.e. her breasts)!?! based on ur comment I can conclude that your either a prepubescent child, an old man [libido decreases with age], or black [tend to have an a$$ fetish]; Tell me I’m wrong!
HERP-DERPQuote Reply
Wow… this line of conversation is so awkward. Good job, Arthur!
Team SansaQuote Reply
HERP-DERP,
way to completely contradict the point I was trying to make…sheesh!
Ah well, carry on.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Hah! Okay… You all win I lose.
I will no longer defend my opinion. You all are right I am 12yrs old and Ross is totally beautiful and sexy!
End of debate…
ArthurQuote Reply
Arthur,
oh Arthur, Arthur, Arthur… some subtlety please? It´s a minimal effort. I know you could lose the opportunity to open your mouth when you should. There´s pointless statements. Lose them. And what about if you try to forget calling people “average”, “pathetic” or “laughable”? That will help, I´m sure.
andreaQuote Reply
Well Heeelllloooo, Arthur!
purplejillyQuote Reply
Arthur,
There’s no opinion to be defended. It’s a matter of decorum, end of story. You don’t talk like that on a public forum or in any public situation when there is other people around unless you don’t care sounding like a) an ass or b) like a pubescent boy.
This should be self explanatory. I don’t even understand why you would defend your self. Just say you don’t find Ros attractive, that’s all we need to know. You make some good points on here and we love your enthusiasm, but you really need to watch you say sometimes. I hate to sound condescending…but sheesh.
Anyways, peace.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
I don’t understand why so many people are giving Arthur such a hard time. Now I’m starting to wonder if a lot of the backlash for the LF scene is due to prudish opinions.
Macha, you are not Arthur’s mother and it is not your job to censor him. Same goes for Joshua. If Arthur went up to a girl and said “You could really use some hips and thighs, and while you’re at it, it would really be nice to see some cushion in the back!” Then, yes, THAT would be tactless.
But, why are you so offended by his opinions on how the actress who plays Ros looks? Women (middle aged women, no less–not 12-year-old, prebuscent women) give me their opinions on male celebrities all the time. Should I call these women tactless? Or, is it possible, you all are acting just a bit uptight?
GoTtranscendsFantasyQuote Reply
GoTtranscendsFantasy,
My dislike for the LF scene has nothing to do with being a prude. From a formal, narrative and artistic point of view I believe it is the low point of the entire first season. It is a casualty in the ongoing war of art versus commerce.
It’s not that were offended that he doesn’t find her attractive or that he says so, it’s how tactless he is about it, breaking her down into body parts. That’s objectification and many people men and women find it insulting. Now he can say whatever he wants but we are patently going to let him and others know that kind of talk isn’t always welcomed.
He seems as if he’s come right off IMDB with the blazing star of anonymity behind him. And this site is more of a community than it is a discussion board. What I can’t figure out is how he doesn’t understand why we object to some of his comments. It boggles the mind as does the notion that “gee I must have offended someone with my dialogue…hmm maybe I should dial it down a little bit. THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE BESIDES MYSELF AFTER ALL…” does not even cross his mind.
But you know what, let him learn how to become part of WIC on his own. I don’t like saying these things about someone I don’t know. But I feel that they needed to be said. It’s nothing about being uptight it’s about respect. He can say what he wants from now on, I am not going to comment any more on the matter. I am not a self appointed Mod.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
GoTtranscendsFantasy,
They get offended about anything I say it seems. I have learned just to ignore it after one or two defenses then move on.
Otherwise, like a pack of wolves, they all come together and attack you from all angles.
Heh, it’s kind of funny though…
Glad someone actually read what I wrote and just didn’t blindly be offended by me saying IMO Ross had no curves…
Let’s move on……
I ordered season one bluray. Hope it comes soon. I plan on having a GoTs marathon with some of my 12yr old friends! =]
ArthurQuote Reply
GoTtranscendsFantasy,
Joshua already said it way better and it seems we’re in perfect agreement over this so I’m not gonna comment any further on the subject. My reply to Arthur was exactly what I said: a bit of friendly advice. But heck, I can always go back to ignoring him.
I’d just like to point out, for the fun of it, that I actually liked the brothel scene. :)) It boggles the mind, doesn’t it? But yeah, you can go on believing that everyone who finds ‘a$$ & booty’ comments (written in that manner) immature is a prude, I don’t mind. Cheers!
MachaQuote Reply
So she’s offended by me saying the actress that plays Ross IMO was lacking curves specifically in the thigh and booty department but liked the scene when Littlefinger demenenly said “Play with her a$$” to a whore that was naked with another whore.
Yeah, that makes total sense…
ArthurQuote Reply
Yeah, I don’t know. I just don’t find T&A comments that offensive. Raunchy maybe. I had a middle aged woman at work, during lunch, pull out a picture of some celebrity and commenting on the dude’s abs (how is this different from tits and ass). She also made fun of the lead singer of LMFAO by saying “What does he weigh, like 5 pounds” (which actually offends me because I’m thin but I’m not going to be mad at her for saying that. It’s not like she was aware of my body image issues).
But my main point is let Arthur be. I’ve read much more offensive things online than graphic details of a woman’s looks (i.e. racist comments, pointless name calling, calling Obama a Muslim, Pinko, and/or terrorist).
And I never said you guys were prudes. It just gave me reason to pause. Macha, if you say you like the LF scene, then I stand corrected.
GoTtranscendsFantasyQuote Reply
Arthur,
you act like everyone is ‘picking’ on you, but there’s simply no discussing with you. When people were coming up with all sort of facts and arguments you kept pushing your own opinion as truth instead of starting a debate . And now here again you aren’t discussing with people, you’re merely repeating your own opinion again and again without adding anything to the discussion. You feel the need to insult someone back in a lengthy post when they have called you a 12-year old. Instead of giving an ‘adult’ response you react very agressively. You’re not on trial here, you don’t have to respond to everyone disagreeing with you. Just imagine there would two people here like you with the same mindset but disagreeing, you two guys would be endlessly going on in a vicious circle here.
KnurkQuote Reply
The wolf pack is circling…
Strength in numbers to defeat the common foe…
The small folk gather together with their torches and pitchforks to drive the evil naysayer from their beloved WiC board.
I’m going to end it at that I do not want to get banned again so please end this?
ArthurQuote Reply
KnurkQuote Reply
Arthur,
Common foe? Would that be people who are offended by your sexist comments?
Look man, let’s bury the hatchet here. No one is criticizing your point of view, what we are criticizing is how you express it. If I used the N word on here to describe someone be it a character or a poster that would not be appropriate would it? Take a look at the comments on this site for a little while, do you see anyone using that kind of talk about sexuality without being ignored or criticized? Do you want to be a person like that on this board? Or do you want to be an attribute to this board and state your opinion, argue respectfully for a comment or two and move on like we all do? I myself used to get into fights with a Troll on this board and it ruined the discussion for everyone. Why can’t you accept that the way you talk about women is kind of insulting to someone besides your self?
If you continue to protest in this fashion than you are either two things a) immature or b) a Troll.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Yes , let’s bury the hatchet. Ple-e-ease ?
And Arthur may not be aware that the actress herself used to drop in here from time to time…( and maybe even posted, unless Ros the Ubiquitous was someone else ).
Whenever these discusions deteriorate to Sex vs No Sex ( which is never the way they start , or even really what they’re about ) or a discussion of body parts , it’s really depressing and a lot gets lost along the way.
I think Esme is very attractive and a pretty good actress in a limited role . So I hope the material they give her in S2 is really good. ( For her and us ;) )
ObsidianQuote Reply
Obsidian,
I do understand that Winter and others were refering to the Littlefinger scene in the show as to whether or not the show was served or underserved by it, and whether or not the scene is consistent with the nature and personality of the character. Unfortunately as you pointed out the discussion usually de-evolves to the level of seemingly being for or against sexuality/nudity on the show. My posting was geared more towards the latter.
So let me be clear, I have no problem with the scene as to its nature i.e. the sexuality/nudity, how it was filmed etc., nor do I have a problem with it being part of the show’s narrative, nor how it squares off with Littlefinger’s personality, behaviour and way of being, conscious of the fact that the Littlefinger on-screen is not (and I imagine cannot) be a full reproduction of the Littlefinger inhabiting the pages of the ASOIF novels.
I regret if somehow my comment implies that the people who don’t like the brothel scene are somehow prudes or sexually repressed. That was not my intent, but based on some previous threads and discussions surrounding this subject matter, some people seemed to be directly pointing out, that they had a problem with the explicit nature of the scene, so as I said, I fashioned my posting adressing comments in that vein…
Well I got to go now, I’m about to watch the Littlefinger scene…I think a glass of shiraz and some cheese and crackers as companions ought to do it….
loco73Quote Reply
Back to DB Weiss and his discussion of adapting the ASOIF books to the GoT -HBO series:
I was waiting for this topic to be broached , expectations of reader fandom and GoT newbies
and respectful screen writing. There has to be a compromising perspective , delivering a cohesive quality program that entertains all . This can be done and likely because GRRM is directly involved in the process. HBO’s “TrueBlood” is a good case and point of doing the opposite and turned out to be a fiasco. Even reasonable expectations were not met there with a poorly adapted , inconsistent direction stymied by Alan Ball ( main character essential profiles were changed and/or reversed with another, the heroine not worthy of redemption). Worst is the distancing of the much loved SVM book series author ( Charlaine Harris ) from the show. Anyway, Weiss here is preparing us some for putting on a cohesive project worthy of the meticulous detail and budget. Once again GRRM is involved so I’m reasonably happy with that. It would advisable that all differentiate between ASOIF and GoT to remain sane. I’m still gonna grumble some though (:
WildSeedQuote Reply
WIC, did my comments post just now? I think I did something stupid.
WildSeedQuote Reply
Looks like my comments translated , thanks. GRRM remarked during an interview about a scene he’d written for s2 called ” Calling the banners”, where ravens were sent to every region lord’s castles or key points of alert contact and the impact of viewers envisioning the process.
He wanted it filmed but was over ruled as it being too costly. He chuckled about that and said something about learning budgets but preceded to revise a scene that satisfied the story. I have no illusions of there being a writing team, but at least he’s included in the project and no stranger to writing for TV ( re: the “Twilight Zone” ).
WildSeedQuote Reply
That was a Season 1 scene (when Rob calls the other Northern House to war).
MormegilQuote Reply
Mormegil,
Yup, you’re right, thanks for the correction. I remember GoT Theon reminding Robb who then consulted maester Luwin about calling the Northmen Banners. I’ve been engrossed in book 4 lately but fresh memories still linger of book 3 war clashes with ravens flying to every region . I actually thought GRRM was referring to ravens being sent from the Wall and warning every region ( N,S,E,W )of the Wildling threat. That would be fitting since one of the last scenes from GoT was lord Mormont heading out with the Black Brothers towards the Wildling territories. Besides the Wall alerts others were being sent calling banners to their own regions purpose. It would have justified one scene I think generalizing the effect . Well, I just probably misread the article. I was impressed that GRRM wished to depict that in a scene, it would have had great impact and no iPhones required (:
WildSeedQuote Reply
WildSeed,
I do believe GRRM said he had written that scene with ravens arriving at all the bannermen’s castles, instead they opted for the cheaper solution.
KnurkQuote Reply
sadliar,
I agree – we’re not stupid and we do realise what LF was saying and the analogies he was making, however, he could hardly be heard at times over the gratuitous grunting and yelling of the ladies, and the whole premise of LF “opening up” to women he owned was completely wrong. I still think the reduction of LF’s character to ‘chief brothel-owner of Westeros’ is doing the character from the books a disservice. He was very canny and wily businessman and Master of the Coin among other things.
SilverjaimeQuote Reply
I hate the brothel scene. It dragged down the entire series and made it into softcore porn. It had no regard to the character of LittleFinger, and that scene ALONE makes me not want to recommend the show to friends, or share it with friends (we bought the DVD). All it did was show me that the directors are horny guys who really wanted to see some lesbian action and felt like they owed it to the 16 year old boys who watch HBO when their parents aren’t home. As a reader, as a true fan, and as a thinking person, I would ask the show’s writers to please consider not adding a needless sex scene and a made up prostitute character to this season. It makes our beloved show – and their fantastic writing – seem cheap. What is this, Entourage?
ColleenQuote Reply