One of the best things about Game of Thrones is that people who have never or only rarely participated in the online fandom experience have gotten involved with this show and the A Song of Ice and Fire books they are based on. Long-time fantasy fanatics and genre newbies alike bond over the story, and these oddly relatable characters.
That said, I thought it would be fun to chat with a few strong voices from the fandom. I’d like to do this from time to time with different groups. For this first round table, the discussion participants include Tumblefell, Bexclare from ONTD, Elle, Miss, Serena who is a writer and moderator for HBOWatch, Kissed-by-Fire, and the Sookieverse, and finally, XenkanMonk, a frequent commenter here at WiC, who also has an amazing fantasy-centered blog.
XenkanMonk: I would be easier with the changes they made if the entire series books had been finished first. Of course GRRM has told D&D bits of the ending, but I worry that they might either cut out something small and vital without knowing it, or may telegraph the series ending by virtue of what they choose to leave in. Shireen has always been my favourite for the winner of the Iron Throne. However, they have probably cut her out of season 2. (The trailers show a lady who might be Selyse at the burning and so perhaps they also have a Shireen but have not announced it). Does this mean D&D have already partially spoiled the ending before A Dream of Spring is even written, that Shireen is in fact not important? Or are they delaying her introduction for future seasons? GRRM has said that who the story is about will be a surprise. Will D&D unknowingly give it away?
Elle: I think the story could become a little stagnant and difficult to translate if it were to remain 100% truthful to the books. Overall, it’s important to keep the themes consistent, but the details don’t necessarily have to be exact, just as long as the outcome is the same. Certain story threads need to be fleshed out in order to translate them to the screen since reading something is a different experience than seeing something (mostly because when you’re reading, you’re heavily relying on your imagination). The books can be ambiguous about a certain event that takes place because the readers can visualise it for themselves, but in the show, that event might have to be shown on screen in order to engage the viewers and get them interested in what comes later. The books also rely on certain details so that the readers can world build, but with visual representation, you don’t need as much extraneous material for the reader to imagine these worlds, so that time can be filled with something else.
Tumblefell: Yeah, I think so. With as much praise as Benioff and Weiss received for their original scenes -the conversation between Cersei and Robert in “The Wolf and The Lion,” for instance- I have no doubts we’ll see more of these kinds of additions. We’ll also continue to experience minor shifts in character(s) and further timeline tweaks but I don’t foresee the production team straying so far from what’s on the page that the overall integrity of the story and the integrity of the characters is compromised. Admittedly, I am a bit ambivalent about some of the rumored changes that we’re supposedly going to see in Season 2 but I’m maintaining cautious optimism. They made some great TV last year, so…
Ask me again, when and if the Tullys, Martells and Reeds are knocked out completely…
Serena: Oh, I think it should be doable. However, if they start making core changes that contradict the text just because they believe in their own genius and it is not even good TV, well, no I’m not going to be happy about that. And while the later books might present a challenge, I think they could still remain faithful so long as they desire to be. – I don’t necessarily mind changes in an adaption, I mind bad storytelling.
Miss: A certain amount of faithfulness is realistic to expect, but not total absolute faithfulness. Ten episodes was never going to be enough to cover each book (maybe Feast, but perhaps they’ll recombine elements of the middle books to flow chronologically, as the books actually don’t; and of course they plan to split Storm). So minor characters will be combined, some plot points will be shortcut, scenes will be consolidated. That’s fine, as long as they remain true to the spirit of the themes and characterizations. I think the plot should serve to reveal the characters and themes, and not the other way around. For me that’s actually an area that could use some improvement, and I’m not sure it will improve quite yet. What makes good TV, that’s subjective! Are “Mad Men” and “The Wire” good TV? Or “Spartacus” and “The Tudors?” Changes must happen in the translation to a visual medium, but what kind and how many depend on the market you’re going for. They’ll probably bow to profit-related pressures, for better or worse.
Bex: I don’t think so. I mean, look at AFFC and ADWD– HBO is going to have to cut and paste to make coherent seasons with those two books alone. And GRRM’s world expands drastically as the series progresses, both with locations and characters, so D&D will have to make a lot of alterations for 10-13 episode seasons of the series, especially for people new to the show. A perfectly faithful TV series would be extremely confusing with GRRM’s POV structures alone. I’ve read all the books; please just give me good TV.
XenkanMonk: I’m most excited for Brienne. GC [Gwendoline Christie] looks amazing as her. She towers over Loras and everyone else. So many times female warriors are portrayed as being tiny waif-fuers, but Brienne actually looks like she can handle a sword and hold her own in a fight against anyone. I’m glad her armour is functional too.
Elle: I’m going to cheat a little on this question and say that I’m excited to see what the show does with characters who are more in the background in the books. I’m looking forward to seeing what they’re going to do with Jeyne and the dynamic between Catelyn, her and Robb. I’m curious about they’ve expanded on Dany’s storyline, specifically how they’re handling Xaro Xhoan Daxos‘ role. I’m also really looking forward to seeing the relationship between Stannis, Davos and Melisandre play out!
Tumblefell: Brienne, Stannis, Margaery, Davos, Ygritte, Dolorous Edd…but mostly Melisandre. Melisandre plays with fire. Roll on, R’hllor!
Serena: To quote Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Brienne.
Miss: Brienne of Tarth, absolutely. She’s such a unique character, she turns the warrior babe trope on its head and occupies such a fascinating place in the gender commentary that Martin provides. She’s also a great look at themes of chivalry and honor, and she’s one of the few women we’ll get to see participating in the heavy action scenes. If you look at her closely you’ll see how she is similar to both Arya and Sansa Stark, and that’s brilliant. I don’t think TV has seen anything like her before.
Bex: STANNIS. STANNIS.STANNIS. I already have my hipster glasses laid out because everyone is going to see how incredibly awesome he is. Stephen Dillane is going to kill it. Stannis is one of the most underrated characters in the series.
XenkanMonk: My pet ship is Brienne + Sansa. People do like to ship the beauty and the beast thing with Sansa and either Tyrion and Sandor. While I agree with the desire to see Sansa have a happy ending in a skewed fairy-tale sort of way, Brienne is the truest knight in Westeros, the most like a traditional knight who still believes in honour and being a good warrior, and yet she is also the most unlike a traditional knight because she is a woman. She is the knight Sansa has always dreamed of. I hope that they meet, fall in love, and will save each other many times, Brienne when brawn is needed, and Sansa when brains are needed.
Elle: Here’s a really random pairing: Theon Greyjoy and Daenerys Targaryen. One thing that really makes me feel for these two characters is their sense of not belonging and their loneliness. They both long for home and pine for childhoods that were essentially stolen from them. I also think they’re both a little misunderstood, they’re both dealing with massive amounts of guilt and regret in ADWD, and sometime in the near future, they could bond over all their emotional damage and find a home together. In addition to all that, at this point in his journey, Theon’s incredibly weak from everything that he’s been through and Daenerys happens to be a very strong and steadfast character–I think he could find strength in her.
Tumblefell: “The Season of the Love Story” …in a word, blerg. This series is not kind to lovers. Hot Pie, who looked like Hot Pie, loved hot pie. Sadly, Hot Pie’s hot pie was eaten and not eaten by Hot Pie. Hot Pie wept bitter Hot Pie tears over hot pie crumbs. And no one was ever happy again. The end.
Serena: Clearly they are referring to Cersei and Lancel, and they better be or we’ll be having words. -Forbidden love, a large gap in age as well as unequal social status, and also personality-wise Cersei is a monster compared to Lancel’s relative innocence,- so many factors working to keep them apart I don’t know how anyone can root against their relationship. Best of all, it’s canon! But then Lancel is a very divisive character in this fandom, probably due to the fact he doesn’t have dragons and in a series such as the ASOIAF which is full of ironically dubbed “strong men,” he seems weak and passive. I just hope Benioff and Weiss have the same priorities in regards to Lancel and his relationship with Cersei that I do. My heart just bleeds for Lancel. … and his wigs.
Miss: The torrid, quietly desperate story of Maester Luwin and Old Nan: It was love at first cataract-ridden sight, but his vows to a cold and restrictive celibate order meant that they could never be!
Bex: Usually Cersei/White Walker is my go-to pairing, but that may be too sinister. I’m all for a Stannis/Davos bromance. And it’s easy to pitch Robb and Theon as gay lovers.
But the true romance of the series, the “OTP” if you will, is Jon Snow and his luscious mane of raven curls. In season 2, Jon and his hair depart fearlessly from the Wall, committed to deduce the Wildling’s strange behavior and remain frizz-free and weightless in the harsh frozen climes. Jon’s hair’s glossy radiance defies gravity and wind conditions as Jon pouts, swings his sword about and looks generally gormless. Despite the trials and tribulations of their grand adventure (and a certain ginger…) the relationship of Jon and his glorious locks is a steadfast tale of true love.
XenkanMonk: I don’t have much against nudity. I like watching nudity. What I took issue with was the nudity ratio. There is much more gratuitous female nudity than male. With the recent Sins trailer, which has several disrobing females and not one male, it looks like the second season may repeat this, which disappoints me. I thought perhaps they makers would pay attention to the sheer number of female fans at Comic Con, and on the internet, and realize that there is a wider audience out there than people only attracted to women. Another contentious issue was Dany and Drogo’s wedding night. Many people voiced concerns that D&D (the producers that is) made it into rape. I disagree. In the books too, I thought it was also rape. Though Dany does say “yes”, she still does not have a choice because if she were to say “no” he would have still had sex with her. Consent only has meaning if not having sex is a valid option. D&D removed the problematic rose-coloured glasses of rape that were in the books, though they kept the later randomization of Dany and Drogo’s relationship. I also do like the continued fleshing out of Cersei, who is rightly a controversial character. Unlike in the books, in the show we get close to her while she is at her best. In the books we only get inside Cersei’s head when she is at her darkest hour and I felt this was always a disservice to her. I look forward to fully armoured Cersei, and I love the touch of the armoured belts that she wears over her dresses.
Elle: For the most part, I think the nudity was essential to the storyline since we’re dealing with a world where realistically, sex and nudity happen (just as in real life). This isn’t a sanitised fantasy world; it’s violent, gritty, and deals with very human themes. I do think that the show catered more to the male gaze because it featured so much female nudity (all of it very attractive) as opposed to male nudity. I’m pretty blasé and open about nudity being depicted on screen and there was at least one sexposition scene that I thought was gratuitous, unnecessary, and just took me completely out of the ASOIAF world–and it didn’t seem true to the character (you can probably take a guess at which one that was). I do find it a little disconcerting that people seemed to complain more about the nudity than all the violence though.
As for the abuse, I dislike the fact that in order to show the strength of women, they have to be put through as much strife as possible–and not just typical conflict that makes for good storytelling, but gendered sexual and emotional abuse. I don’t love that even in fantasy, the world these women live in has to be so sexist–we already deal with so much of it in real life so seeing very familiar marginalisation present in an escapist fantasy world is tiring. However, as much as I dislike the fact that capable, well-constructed female characters can’t seem to exist without being downtrodden, since the world GRRM created is misogynistic and patriarchal, it’s important to show just how much pain these characters overcome. It’s essential that the audience see their struggles in order to understand what they’re up against, and to appreciate them for surviving and thriving despite their terrible odds.
Tumblefell: To me, the sex and nudity was talked about by the media -and on the internet- more than it actually appeared on screen. Having discussed the subject with friends who have also read the series, we all agreed it was certainly more prevalent in the books. Yeah, you’ve got Dany rising naked out of the ashes, nursing a dragon and it’s badass and empowering; you’ve got Lysa Arryn nursing her 10 year old son and it’s badass in its absolute absurdity; but Cersei and Jaime are fully clothed when caught by Bran and that doesn’t lessen the shock; and Ned and Cat are clothed when Luwin delivers the letter and there’s no loss in intimacy in the preceding scene. But I can’t dismiss the criticism entirely because much of it stems from the male gaze-ness of the “sexposition” and the majority of the nudity. And when a show inspires a term like “sexposition”…
People love to talk about sex so, of course, there’s going to be even more of it next season! Whether or not production is courting controversy through it, we’ll just have to see.
Serena: It’s HBO, they are going to try to push buttons re: sex and nude scenes. Shrug. Of course S1 leaned more towards female exposure, but frankly, I try to objectify the men on this channel as much as possible. So more male nudity please! As for a lot of those particular scenes in question, I found their flaws were rooted in editing and pacing, the content didn’t exactly throw me off… With the exception of Drogo and Dany’s humping session in the second episode, that bothered me in regards to her character evolution. As for this upcoming season, I’m not so sure it will be as controversial as S1, unless someone goes down under but HBO has a hard time getting camera angles right for that of thing. Oh snap!
Miss: The complaints about sex and nudity were justified. There was a lot more gaze on the female form than the male form. Male nudity was a lot more casual (the man who had to run naked behind the khalasar, Hodor in “The Pointy End”) than female nudity, which was more sexualized. While I have nothing against Esme Bianco, they pretty much created her character so she could be seen naked often. Yes she is doing other things, but those other things could be done in other ways that don’t involve naked women who fit the standard beauty ideal. Enough has been said on sexposition already so I won’t rehash it all. We won’t know about the second season until we’ve seen it. We’ve seen glimpses of Loras and Renly becoming intimate, but what if they remain mostly clothed, while we’ve also already seen Margaery stripping? What if that’s the one instance we have to compare against many more instances of titillating female nudity? That would make it seem a little bit like appeasement instead of a real commitment to a naturalistic, inclusive and paradigm-shifting approach to sex and sexuality. We’ll have to wait and see.
Regarding abuse, there’s a case to be made that it’s necessary to understand what women (like Dany) need to overcome, but it can possibly go too far. How they handle Sansa in season two will be telling; already they fixated on her beating stripped and beaten in the promo material, which is a bit disappointing.
Bex: I think some of the Daenerys scenes were needlessly graphic, and that scene in the brothel with Littlefinger and Ros was laughable (and perhaps her character in general), so I wouldn’t disagree with people who were unhappy. I think the amount of controversy will remain the same; Ros, Shae, Melisandre and Margaery will probably be getting nude this season, and Sansa will be at the mercy of Joff. It’s just going to be different from season 1, but I don’t predict that the show will be getting tamer.
And finally….
XenkanMonk: Shireen Baratheon. She is the dark horse, the stone dragon, and the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms.
Elle: I have a completely trollish desire to see fandom riot over a certain pair (who have yet to meet), ruling Westeros. However, if I’m to answer truthfully, I don’t think there will be an Iron Throne in the end—in fact, I don’t think there should be. I think the kingdom should have a ruling force in the north and a ruling force in the south or a council of rulers so that way, there’s a balance of power that doesn’t rely on a monarchical government.
Tumblefell: Melt the Iron Throne – wildfire, dragon fire, whatever it takes! But if I MUST make a choice and toss all logic and anything I know about anything aside, the Imp seems like a safe choice.
Serena: Sansa, so she can say “Let them eat lemoncakes.” Yes brilliant.
Miss: I think a possibly “lowborn” Targaryen pretender reigning over Westeros for years to come would be just hilarious.
Bex: My theory is that Rickon’s probably going to be the only character to survive anyway, so long live King Rickon and his court of unicorns and turtles.
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97 Comments
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DavosFTW!Quote Reply
Great interview!
JonhoQuote Reply
wow!!
Jenish KachhadiaQuote Reply
King Jaime Lannister laughs at your feeble attempts to hand the Iron Throne to lesser men and women.
Jaime LannisterQuote Reply
First!
Davos, Jonho & Jenish usurped my First! The First is mine by right and birth and blood!
Sword-O-Da-Mornin’Quote Reply
I hope for Shireen as well, wonder whats with Patchface
Tom K.Quote Reply
Also btw. I personally would like to see an Other on the Iron throne or the hell with that . How about Jon Snow… wait for it… AS an Other!!! BOOM there it is… Or possibly Bran, see because Bran can rule all day without his arse ever hurting.
All reality aside though, Tyrion would probably make the best ruler. There’s nothing the guy can’t do well, except maybe run fast but who cares. He’d be King he shouldn’t be running from anyone anyway
Sword-O-Da-Mornin’Quote Reply
there will be no king
jkbQuote Reply
Check my girl Bex out! :p Thank you for pulling members from all factions of the fandom for this. It’s great to get a wider perspective on the series than is usually given. Hope there are more of these!
KatieQuote Reply
some interesting opinions. well, all but “bex.” if you don’t have anything to say, best shut up and let others give their opinions instead.
sansaQuote Reply
sansa,
Do you have any constructive criticism of her comments? If not, please take a moment to enjoy the irony of your statement.
KatieQuote Reply
Great roundtable! Very enjoyable reading. I would totally dig the ballad of Maester Luwin and Old Nan.
Maxwell JamesQuote Reply
Katie,
lol, Bex’s comments were my favorite! She clearly has her opinions but seems to realize that this is about something fun, not SRSBZNZ
userjQuote Reply
Heh, fun read. (^_^)b I would have liked a wee bit more seriousness, though. Not that it’s void of it, but… Oh, and an actual roundtable *discussion* would have been nice.
Anyway, I feel like answering those questions as well.
1) No. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing. Other than Littlefinger getting the Hound’s best line and Shae’s character being completely rewritten I don’t really take issue with any omissions, changes or additions, save for one or two scenes. However, I do worry a bit since I feel D&D’s emphasis in interviews etc. has shifted from being as faithful as possible during the lead-up to last season to staying true to the big picture with the small pictures being ripe for experimenting with their writing muscles, but this way could very well lie disaster in adapting an unfinished series.
2) Mostly Brienne, but all of them really. I hate them having recast the Mountain, though. Just as I hate how TPTB recast War Machine and Hulk for Iron Man 2 and The Avengers, respectively. For one it’s immersion-breakingly jarring. And that the prior actor in all three cases looked and acted perfectly doesn’t exactly help, either. Howard Stark looking different every time I weirdly enough have no problem with, though. Probably ’cause they look close enough to each other and the comics version and are minor enough of a presence visually.
3) *groan* *facepalm* well, Kem/Pod OTP ;p
4) The changes to Dany’s wedding night bedding bother me as that makes the change into a true romance come totally out of left field and even more disturbingly Stockholm-esque. The infamous overlong and wholly superfluous brothel sexposition scene makes me want to vomit all over the people responsible for it. Repeatedly. I really liked the final(?) one with Pycelle, though, as it showed what a scheming scumbag he really is in a fun way. And of course: Disturbing Breastfeeding FTW! Yay! And the rest were fine, even if occasionally cheesy. Or at least they would have been if we had seen more than only Theon’s peon (and two others in almost uniquely unerotic circumstances). (Not that I didn’t enjoy the shirtless shaving scenes.) And going by the apparently only and already to 90% spoiled sex scene between Loras and Renly in which both are (again) merely shirtless I haven’t got even the slightest hope for the ratio between sexes being more equalized this time.
5) King Renly Baratheon, the first of his name. Alternatively Rickon in the North and Daenerys in the South.
twincastQuote Reply
userj,
This series is wonderful, in that it really allows you to explore the themes of duality within human nature and the lengths that people will go to for power that they aren’t even equipped to wield. Because of this, I think it goes without saying that it can be extremely bleak. That in and of itself isn’t bad, but you have to have a sense of (dark) humor about the whole thing or you’ll be constantly throwing the book across the room in despair. Fans need to be snarky and have fun with it, otherwise it stops being entertainment.
KatieQuote Reply
i have to agree with sansa’s comment about “Bex” and her answers. she obviously takes this as a joke most people reading would appreciate thoughtful answers, not a lot of silliness.
clareQuote Reply
I asked that the participants speak with their own natural voices, and humor is totally welcome. I think there are a lot of very serious answers there, and I also love Bex’s humor. It doesn’t negate what she has to say. It’s a good balance.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
clare,
Other than the joke answer she gave to the question that was clearly meant to inspire humor, what about her answers wasn’t thoughtful? Was it the fact that she doesn’t share the same opinions as a lot of the fandom that made you think she wasn’t invested in the questions? Or was it the fact that she didn’t write down her responses as if she was turning in an English Lit paper that threw you off?
(Every person in this panel seemed like they enjoyed the questions and had fun with their answers, btw. Are we pointing Bex out because she’s from ONTD, or what?)
On a lighter note, if I’m not going to hear a ballad of Jon Snow and his glorious hair, I would absolutely love to be told of the undying love of the Maester and the Nursemaid. The very idea conjures the emotional resonance of Tristan and Isolde, tbh. ;p
KatieQuote Reply
sansa,
clare,
Please don’t comment under two different names and “agree” with yourself. It’s kind of pathetic.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
AHAHA! Seriously?
KatieQuote Reply
No fair that they know the ending already!
Can GRRM just crank the next book out already? geez
:)
AB
AlexBaratheonQuote Reply
I think nobody is gonna win the Iron Throne, like no one is gonna survive (maybe Hot Pie).
Plain_AQuote Reply
“I don’t love that even in fantasy, the world these women live in has to be so sexist–we already deal with so much of it in real life so seeing very familiar marginalization present in an escapist fantasy world is tiring.”
Couldn’t agree more here.
dbQuote Reply
I wouldn’t say Westeros is constructed purely for escapism. In fact, one of the strenghts of the story is that it is not purely escapist.
MagnusQuote Reply
Ps Drogon will win the throne w/ Viserion and Rhaegal as his “hands”…
It is known-
Dragons rock!! Drogon being the most kick ass one :D
AlexBaratheonQuote Reply
Magnus,
I have to agree here. Especially in the case of young adult fiction, I love when a fantasy story shows a world where women have more opportunities to be the hero and not have societal restrictions be placed on their actions. It gives a good goal for young girls to strive for.
However, in an adult story like this, it’s important to have some realism. GRRM has said that he wanted this story to feel like a historical fiction, and I honestly wouldn’t be able to buy a medieval world where a woman wouldn’t have to battle for every bit of power she got. It’s just not plausible. I also happen to respect the women in this story immensely, because they know that the world their living in is total bullshit, and they do what they need to in order to push their agendas. That’s the kind of strength I want to read about. Not necessarily a fairy world, but one in which I can recognize the games being played, and truly admire the players.
KatieQuote Reply
Khal Drogo will be ressuructed as a wight and conquer the entire seven kingdoms with his zombie khalasar.
VanderhookQuote Reply
I am excited to see how they will develop Hot Pies character in the coming seasons
Stannis & Mel 2012
Nimble DickQuote Reply
Nicely done WiC.
Thanks for reaching out to the fans and getting their thoughts and opinions on things. Little gestures like that make the whole base happy because we feel like our opinions matter or at least someone is listening to us besides ourselves.
It is always fun to read another fans well thought out and well written thoughts on anything GoTs related. The group you selected seem for intelligent, insightful and well spoken.
You know I had to give my thoughts on those questions… =)
Question 1). What I look forward to most from the TV series is reliving the experiences that affected me most from the books. I remember clapping and cheering in the car on the way to work when Jaime Lannister went back to help Brienne and the guy he was with said “We came all the way back here to help that wench” and Jaime said “Her name is Brienne.” Or, when Dany was going to sell one of her dragons to those slavers for the Unsullied but instead she taught Drogon the command for breathing fire and knew once the Unsullied were hers they would obey her command no matter what. She used all those facts to her advantage and had Drogon burn the slavers face off and set the Unsullied to killing all the slavers. That made me cheer out loud!
D & D seem like very intelligent people to me and I know all of us experienced similar feelings of joy and sorrow throughout the books on many of the same parts. As long as those parts are kept in the TV story and they build up to them correctly to have the same affect on the viewer, as it did on the reader, I will be happy. For instance, Jaime better call Brienne a wench several times and Brienne better stare back at him and defiantly say “My name is Brienne” each time. Or when Jaime says “Her name is Brienne”, there will be no affect.
As far as casting so many characters. Their are many minor characters that many of us may hold dear, Meera Reed, for instance for myself. I know the reality of a TV series won’t allow so many characters and I can live with that. But no Meera Reed? Come on man, Meera won’t be cast? For real??? =(
Question 2). Brienne of course. I can’t wait to see how they build up her relationship with Jaime. It goes from Jaime hating her and thinking she is an ugly freak of a woman and wanting to kill her the first chance he gets… To him having the outmost respect for her, even caring for her. That will be awesome to watch unfold.
Question 3). No time to answer that.
Question 4). There are people out there that complain about everything. Fact of the matter is George R R Martin’s books are written for adults. Also, if you compare the TV series to other competitor stations TV series the violence and nudity is mild. ‘Spartacus’ is filled with gore, rape and women being used as slaves. ‘Shameless’ also has very explicit scenes. ‘Californication’ has more nudity and sex in a 30min episode then GoTs has in its whole series. It is funny how these people who complain about the women being treated abusively in GoTs close their eyes to all the lead female characters who portray power. I think GoTs has a good balance. It is not just women being made to get naked and abused. Some of the strongest characters are, in fact, women.
Question 5). No time to answer that.
Oh yeah,
Natalie Dormer is so hot, when she walks barefoot on pavement it shrieks in pain from her heat.
ArthurQuote Reply
This round table idea is great fun to read. Thank you to all of the participants! Humor is a must in Westeros.. we already get plenty of drama. The “Jon and his luscious mane of raven curls” love affair was hilarious! *ahem* and is soooo true!! I look forward to their windy and turbulent journey north of the wall.
I love, love, love Brienne!! She is a true knight from the tippy top of her head to the end of her big toe. I would say she’s honorable to a fault. Many times I wanted to climb onto a ladder.. smack her on the head and tell her to put her honor on hold for 5 seconds!! …but then she wouldn’t be Brienne. =/
Brienne.. Ned.. Robb and Jon.. with their HONOR!! Drive me nuts! haha
MimsyQuote Reply
This.
And not only Bex, but pretty much everyone else except XenanMonk.
This is all what “a few strong voices” from the fandom had to say?? What a big, big letdown.
I loved the idea but the people who took part in it totally missed the point, imho.
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Somewhat off-topic, but I finally got around to reading the Season 2 impressions over at Westeros.org and I spotted this:
**instead of dogs, the show has gone with actual wolves shot against bluescreen and digitally composited into the scene.**
Gosh, didn’t I suggest something on that order way back during Puppygate and get brutally shot down? Why yes, yes I did. (Proceeds to do the “I told you so” dance of triumph)
KGQuote Reply
Daamn now I feel like an idiot for agreeing with her :S
PS: Please do check mi IP, u’ll see we’re prolly in different continents
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Yeah, I remember that. They did try and rip you for that suggestion (don’t remember who exactly).
Something about “You have no idea how TV shows are made and the budgets involved…” but with a condescending tone that insinuated you were an idiot.
I hereby declare YOU the victor here! Who’s the idiot now?
EdQuote Reply
KG is now WINNING!!!
purplejillyQuote Reply
Also, XenkanMonk, really? You think Sansa has brains???
XenkanMonk: My pet ship is Brienne + Sansa. She is the knight Sansa has always dreamed of. I hope that they meet, fall in love, and will save each other many times, Brienne when brawn is needed, and Sansa when brains are needed.
purplejillyQuote Reply
Way to go Bex! You did a fantastic job and I loved reading your comments!
MegQuote Reply
purplejilly,
If she didn’t before, she will, after LF is done with her. If she survives the training, that is.
Ow, and I’m also on a GoT-is-not-so-serious-business boat. It’s about fiction books and TV series after all. I think Bex’s approach is just right. :)
PepiQuote Reply
As someone who not only participated in this roundtable but is familiar with all of the strong voices featured here, I believe quite a bit of thought and consideration of the reading audience went into each response -whether or not you appreciate the light tone or brevity is, I guess, up to you…
That said, I really enjoyed reading all of the responses -it all comes down to the fact that we just want to see a good show!
tumblefellQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
Given that I designed the round table, I’m quite certain everyone got the point perfectly well. :)
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Ok mate, first I’m sorry If I’ve offended you, I know that is hard to take criticism…but I think that if you wanna take something positive out of this, instead of blaming me for not liking the tone or the length of the response, what I think would be more productive for you would be to re-read what you wrote and think if that was really the best you could do, and think on what you could have said that would have made that read more interesting for others…
And, without trying to be harsh but just straight-up honest, maybe you guys really did put in each response quite a bit of thought and consideration, but many times that is just not enough…I refuse to believe that is the best the fandom can do while analyzing the series.
And again without trying to be a jerk, I believe yoiu when you say that you really enjoyed reading all of the responses, but maybe your standards are lower than mine ;)
And again, I say this in good heart..I have no idea who you guys are, what ONTD is (I actually had to scroll up to copy that name and just realized you and Bex are “partners” there…but don’t feek the need to defend him, all the other commenters were almost as shallow in my opinion, except mb Xenkanmonk) but I really was expecting a lot when I saw the post, and, in my opinion, you just weren’t up to the task…
PS: Maybe it is my fault, maybe I was expecting some interesting discussions ala Westeros (I actually though Elio would be here when I read the “strong voices” remark) and it’s me who totally missed the point of the post…but then, what a missed opportunity!
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
IMHO, having a sense of humor is a sign of intelligence, YKWIM? Also, I was expecting smart and witty retorts but I guess we’re all disappointed then. BFO.
SerenaQuote Reply
Then what a missed opportunity!!
I hope you won’t take offense in me saying I felt quite cheated after reading the responses ;)
PS: Maybe next time you could make more clear that the post is some kind of comic relief thinguie and that we shouldn’t take it too seriously hehe
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
I’m reading your post over and over, and the only thing that I am taking from it is that you feel this panel insulted your intelligence by not delving as deep into these questions as you may have. Which you are making extremely clear, by the way, by being as insulting as you possibly can be while cloaking the harshness with the phrase “I’m not trying to be a jerk, but…”
You know anything said after the word “but” doesn’t count, right?
You know what would be a more productive exercise for you? Instead of repeating over and over again how much you didn’t like a panel, why don’t you offer your thoughts instead? I think, after reading the selection of posts you’ve left for us here, we’d love to know what astounding insights you may have into these questions. I’m sure your higher standards would truly serve to educate us on the opinions and style of dialogue that we should be accustomed to as true fans of this illustrious series.
I’m looking forward to your contribution! :)
KatieQuote Reply
Thanks incredibly to Fury for providing the opportunity for this discussion. It was interesting to see where we all agreed and where we differed, and I’m very happy to read the opinions of the others who participated. I think everyone did a swell job, and I loved the chance to be both serious and relaxed here. I only regret there wasn’t room for more depth in the format! Thanks again!
MissQuote Reply
Haha well I don’t really want to get into a fight but I didn’t find those answers funny or witty at all…actually, many times it’s easier for people to (try) to make a joke about something than to give a thoughtful answer…
If you were expecting smart and witty retorts from me, I’m sorry I dissapointed you…but english is not my mother language soI can’t compete there ;)
PS: I don’t know what YKWM or BFO mean
PPS: I think critics (wich I’m sure are the targets of u guys criticism) take criticism better than u guys!! :-D
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
O dear if that is the most insulting that I possibly can be then my insulting capabilities are truly disastrous!!
I tried to be polite but firm in my criticisms. I really think the answers were really weak. I don’t think I insulted anyone. But then again, I might be mistaken, so then again, sorry if I sounded harsh…BUT I think I’m entitled to an opinion no?
Sometimes you read a critic review and think is awful, so you tell the reviewer…sometimes you read a book or see movie that you think it’s awful and u voice your opinion…I thought this post was not the best and said so, trying to be respectful to everyone. I think you guys have to soft a skin, when people publish something thay have to be able to withstand criticism without taking it as a personal attack ;)
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
purplejilly,
(Flexes her mighty intellect with great style and panache)
KGQuote Reply
I think this whole thread was an attempt by WiC to put a little spotlight on some of the actual fandom and let them speak freely to their fellow fandom readers/posters.
I was delighted to see the site administers actually took the time and organized this for us. It was a gesture of kindness and them showing they respect and enjoy our views on all things GoTs. The people selected for the interview all wrote intelligently and had good answers. It is okay for them to let their personalities show during their answers. Humor is a good tool to use when trying to reach out and befriend other readers/posters.
That being said, I feel we all should just relax and talk about what was discussed in a polite and friendly way. We shouldn’t be on here trying to pick apart the people selected for the interview. The whole point is they are normal, everyday fandom, like you and I, and they were giving a chance to express their thoughts and opinions on a generous platform.
I have very strong opinions as well, and I never shy away from a little battle of opinion from anyone. But this thread isn’t here for debate, it is here to spotlight a few fellow fans. We all should be respectful of one another.
That being said, here is some of my humor…
Natalie Dormer is so hot, if she dove into an olympic sized swimming pool in 3.2 seconds it would turn into a sizzling hot tube.
ArthurQuote Reply
What a fun panel!! Fury, you did an amazing job organizing this. The responses were great as well. I hope we can have another one after Season 2.
MegQuote Reply
Hi Arthur,
I just wanted to offer my viewpoint on your comment on question #5. While there are definitely shows out there with more gratuitous nudity than Game of Thrones, that doesn’t mean we can’t criticize the show on its own merits. I don’t think Game of Thrones is nearly the worst offender when it comes to gratuitous sexualization of women, but it’s not raising the bar either (and my philosophy is, why not shoot for the moon!).
Also, I believe that there is more to doing female characters justice than power. After all, power is only one facet of humanity. Say you have a show where the balance of men and women in sociopolitical/supernatural power is about equal; you can still have a problem if the men never get naked and the women do every episode. There’s an obvious market force at work in that creative decision. It’s not about being prudish, it’s about being fair.
There’s an interesting argument to be made that the gaze of the show reflects the fact that Westeros itself objectifies women more than men, but that’s a fine line to walk. Even a show like Mad Men, which has probably the most intelligent approach to this sort of thing, gets criticized (by pro critics, not just a bunch of geeks on the ‘net! ;D).
Game of Thrones has a lot of intriguing and multi-faceted female characters, but I feel there’s still a male gaze issue at play here. One positive doesn’t make another negative go away. That said, Spartacus it ain’t (though I wouldn’t even honestly mind if not for the fact that there are just so many scenes to squeeze in to ten episodes). Anyway, that’s my take!
MissQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
Look, Elio and Westeros.org is not the whole of ASOIAF fandom. Not everyone approaches ASOIAF/GoT fandom in the same way. You apparently expect fandom to be Super Serious Business analysis and theorizing, but not everyone does. Some people are in it for the funny, some people are in it for the shipping, some people are in it for the fanfic, some people watch GoT just for some damned eye candy, and yes, some people are in it for the endlessly derivative theorizing and character bashing that goes on at Westeros.org.
So, consider that as much as you expected this to be Westeros.org v. 2.0, if it was, some of us would be groaning and as grumpy as you feel right now if it was just another opportunity for Elio to be considered an aspirational superfan or something.
It wasn’t to your taste. Not everything will be, and not all discussions of fandom and appreciation of the media we all love is going to press the right buttons for you. It’s okay. Fandom is like that.
(And just to be clear, I have nothing personal against Elio, he seems a fine enough guy and was polite when we debated a few times, but I don’t particularly find his analysis insightful (nor much of what is on Westeros.org, generally), and I’m a little tired of the implication that because he’s buddies with GRRM and helping him write a book that it means his opinions are more important than any other fan’s.)
CanaryQuote Reply
Canary,
Very well said.
KatieQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
No worries, I took no personal offense at your initial response. The rest I’ll leave alone and simply say that I recognize that my own answers to the questions were fairly surface-level responses. But then again, I had no intention of being pedantic ;)
tumblefellQuote Reply
When all is said and done, Queen Myrcella will have to choose between Podrick Payne and Hot Pie, and Pod, being unable to handle the rejection, will hang himself.
My dark horse here is King Gendry and his queen, Mya Stone, maintaining yet another longstanding tradition.
Maester TcostQuote Reply
We are in agreement then!! :-D
It’s ok for me not to like some of the answers of the panel and it’s ok for me to say it, as lons as I’m respectful and I don’t insult anyone.
I also didn’t like AFFC or ADWD that much either, as I’ve said around here before, and I don’t think Martin would mind that much if he knew. I’m confident that he’d return to his best in the future, now that the Meereenese knot is untied (or isn’t it?), but if he doesn’t , o well…there’s plenty to enjoy about things even if u don’t like them 100% (even if u hate 50% of it, u can still enjoy the other 50%, so I’m not too bothered)
About Elio, well, I don’t agree with him on many ocasions (for one, as I say I didn’t like Martin’s 2 last books) but I DOe think his analysis are insightful (or most of what is on Westeros.org, for that matter). If you don’t, and think the analysis here was more insightful…then we are asymmetrically alike :-D
And for not having not having anything personal, you talk an awful lot about him and his desires to be “an aspirational superfan or something” hehe…you know what they say: “Excusatio non petita..” ;)
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
I’m glad you didn’t. I think that many times the fear of resembling pedantic works againts oneself, so it’s easier to try and be on the lighter side to not be called off (is that the right expression, called off?)
I would have enjoyed some more pedantic responses myself ;)
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Obviously.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
If Shireen ends up on the Iron Throne then I will be very disappointed. The thought makes me nervous that we’ll get a stupid ending to a fantastic series. I think that idea being thrown out there in the first response caused me to feel like Pau as I read the rest. I couldn’t enjoy any comedy after such a terrible ending, in my opinion, crept into my head. I think I might need to go get really drunk and hopefully black out this idea from my thoughts.
DanQuote Reply
Reading the comments above, I believe that what I have to say is completely off topic, but it seems to me that the Round-Table discussion is the most appropriate WiC entry to comment on that is also recent.
That being said… I have a spoilery theory about Jeyne that may have already been discussed, but is something I haven’t seen anywhere yet. I can’t keep it to myself anymore and I apologize if I should’ve posted this somewhere else. Okay!
Said theory: HBO is going to eliminate the need to cast any of the Westerlings or Edmure by killing off Jeyne by the end of the season. I think that the “commoner-looking” Jeyne in Robb’s character video is, in fact, just a commoner. She is feisty and smart and Robb falls in love with her and ultimately ends up marrying her, despite his agreement to marry a Frey. But before the end of the season, she dies, which frees up Robb to then fulfill his agreement to marry a Frey once more. So, instead of Robb and his men heading to the Twins in the third season to wed Edmure to Roslin, Robb will be the one who intends to wed. However, Walder Frey can’t forgive Robb’s betrayal and is also already in cahoots with Tywin, so he still decides to stage the wedding and murder Robb.
The reason I think this is true:
- Jeyne was not cast as a “Westerling,” but simply as “Jeyne” and no other Westerlings have been cast. I think if she were highborn, she would need a retinue of some sort at some point in the season and as far as I can tell–since no one else has been cast–she doesn’t.
- D&D (or someone involved with the production of the show, I don’t remember) said that a character who was not killed in the second book would die in season 2. That could mean Jeyne.
- It would allow the Red Wedding to play out in a relatively similar way to the books while eliminating the need to cast several new minor characters (which could be potentially confusing and use up precious time) in a show that only has more major characters to introduce.
My theory would indicate several things:
- That the Westerlings don’t have a part to play in the future of ASOIAF, which would make the Jeyne-is-in-hiding-and-is-actually-pregnant-with-Robb’s-child theory null.
- That the need for Tullys in the show diminishes greatly, because the most important reason for casting Edmure would be for the Red Wedding.
- That would mean that Edmure, Roslin and their child also don’t have a part to play in the future of ASOIAF.
- Probably many other things that I haven’t thought of.
I realize that there are some serious repercussions to my theory, which may be the reason I’m wrong, but I’m still worried that this is the path HBO will take. I hope it’s not true, because I would love to see the Tullys cast (come on, Blackfish!) and the Westerling betrayal play out on screen. Again, maybe this has already been discussed so sorry if this is redundant! But if not, what do you all think? Plausible? Or am I completely daft?
HilaryQuote Reply
I’m sorry to say, but this has prbably been the weakest post on this site for quite a bit (although some of the points WERE interesting). “Strong voices fom the community”? Really? Even Larry from Otaku Assemble would’ve been more insightful.
HarumphQuote Reply
Purplejilly, did you not notice that Sansa is the only one who is able to see through Littlefinger’s plans? I’d say it’s pretty obvious from even the most casual reading of the books that she’s smart as a whip, and rapidly losing her youthful naïveté.
Cersei_IIQuote Reply
Canary,
so this. I get tired whenever there needs to be a fan interviewed in the media they call on Elio the as-you-called-it ‘superfan’. I find it quite annoying that he represents the ‘fandom’ so often while he bans so many fans on Westeros.org and his girlfriend, the co-founder of that website, quite often insults large parts of the fandom in the most crazy ways. Of course Elio can’t help it that he gets called, but it would be nice if the media turned to some other fans instead for a change.
This roundtable discussion was excellent by the way, more of these please!
KnurkQuote Reply
I like your theory, Hilary. I think it’s very possible, and it wouldn’t lessen the impact of the RW much. Introducing the Tullys so late (season 3) might kill the emotional impact, so this change might be for the better. Book purists will riot, though.
I enjoyed this post. It’s a nice break from all the promotional materials/interviews. I appreciate snark, and lurk on ONTD and Tumblr, as well as read the heady “realpolitick” type threads on Westeros and ToTH. There’s really something for every type of fan out there, but I’ve found WiC to be a nice central site, sort of a rallying point for the fandom. You get all types of fans here. And that’s a good thing, people.
EllenQuote Reply
Hilary,
Kudos! That’s an extremely plausible theory, and would certainly save D&D a lot of time and money. But I must admit that I hope it’s not true, since as you say, it would be quite a spoiler for the final two books if they can safely write the Tullys out.
Cersei_IIQuote Reply
Hilary,
great theory. I do think you don’t have to worry about spoilers for books yet to come, it is quite possible D&D can write another ending than GRRM has in mind or write around GRRM’s ending like you just did.
KnurkQuote Reply
Hello Miss,
I understand your criticism of women written into scenes baring breasts or being totally nude while the men, for the most part, are not as objectified nearly as much. I wouldn’t blame Game of Thrones for this. It is sadly what gets ratings. Although Game of Thrones may be a little guilty of this, “Play with her ass” scene comes to mind, it is not even a fraction as guilty as other competitor series, or even series on HBO itself. True Blood has basically turned into a supernatural soft porn flick. I was a fan, up until last season, because every episode revolved around Sookie getting naked and sleeping with someone. Game of Thrones is so much deeper then that. If a character gets naked, it is to show some characterization of the characters involved. Even that Littlefinger scene, though it was awkward and poorly done, was an attempt to let you know what Littlefinger’s angle in the plot was.
To your point about why not have men get nude as much as females. I agree, I think it is about time that started to happen. One thing about Spartacus, as I am sure you already know, is they have their male actors walking around nude in all their glory all the time. Not just bun shots either, I am talking full frontal nudity. I seriously doubt Game of Thrones will have any of that but maybe they should. Why are the women the only ones who have to bare it all in front of the whole cast, crew and viewers? I totally agree that is unfair.
I think America is the only post industrialized nation that sees the naked human body as shameful or forbidden. You go anywhere in Europe and watch TV, a commercial for soap will come on and a naked woman/man will be there scrubbing their body with soap. Nothing dirty about it. In America that would be “Rated R”.
Also, you got to remember the Hollywood mentality. It is a place where if you want to make it as an actor/actress you better be beautiful. I mean there are cases where a few actor/actresses make it big and aren’t so good looking but those are few and far between. And sadly it is even more the case for the women. The young and beautiful get the parts and the older the actress gets the more her window of opportunity closes.
I guess I am in agreement with you about the objectification of women. My only caveat to your view is Game of Thrones actually does this less then any other subscription series I have seen in a longtime. Furthermore, Game of Thrones has some really in depth female characters that totally rock and are completely bada$$. Remember, the Game of Thrones producers and writers still have to compete in this market. They didn’t set the rules or pick the viewers. Their number one priority is to keep the series going by getting ratings. So that means they have to conform to the popular demand of shooting scenes with beautiful women being naked. Maybe, to be fair, they can throw in some male frontal nudity to satisfy the female viewer from time to time. =)
Oh yeah,
Natalie Dormer is so hot, if you were to see her naked you’d suffer from spontaneous combustion.
ArthurQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
I’ll just point out that you’re the person who brought up that you were disappointed that the “strong” voices didn’t include Elio. I didn’t pull his name outta nowhere to mention. I just find it ironic when someone complains when possibly THE most quoted ASOIAF fan isn’t in one particular interview. (And I’ll gently p0int out that you may have misinterpreted my meaning with your jibe – I don’t think Elio goes out of his way to be aspirational, but he is framed that way by a lot of fandom and popular media, in the sense of, “gee, wouldn’t everybody like to be this superfan who gets to be buddies with GRRM?” It’s not even something he does purposefully, it’s how his story gets framed in media.)
But back on point, let me try to explain what it is I think you’re missing.
You’re not being respectful. You’re being quite insulting and offensive. Maybe this is a language barrier issue, since you admit yourself that English is not your first language, but to say that you have “high standards” and anyone who enjoyed this must have “low standards” is actually pretty offensive.
Nobody is bothered that you didn’t like it. People are annoyed because you’re pretty strongly implying that anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a “real” fan, and is a bad fan and an idiot. You are not smarter, more insightful, or better than the rest of the people on this site. You can say that you did not *like* the tone of something without complaining that fans have to, in your words:
None of the respondents answer to you. As Neil Gaiman famously said, “GRRM is not your bitch.” Neither are your fellow fans.
CanaryQuote Reply
Knurk,
Indeed. I mean, I don’t like his site, so I don’t tend to go there, it’s no big deal, but it’s a little tiring that his opinion (which even he admits is pretty slavish to GRRM, and I tend to view as being extremely conservative about canon in mind-numbingly boring ways) is always the one that gets touted as “how fans think”. Blech.
CanaryQuote Reply
Canary,
You’re my favorite. *applauds*
KatieQuote Reply
Oh gods, that’s … precious. XD
And rereading the whole thing I realize the long jokes on potential lovers must have colored my perception on the whole post somewhat. It was a minor criticism anyway regardless.
I must however stress that when I read round table I think discussion, so the utter lack thereof really was somewhat of a disappointment. Reacting to others’ opinions makes for far better a read.
twincastQuote Reply
Monk makes a pretty good point at the very beginning: by watching the show slowly catch up with an unfinished series of book, small character threads that the reader was storing on the way and playing fantasies with, are going to get more and more forgotten in favor of the ones actually depicted on screen for brevity’s sake.
Now I’m almost reluctant to watch the rest :O ALMOST.
Restore The DayQuote Reply
Canary,
agreed.
ElricQuote Reply
Thought I should chime in to say thanks again to the mods for letting me do this.
Since my answers in particular have gotten some heat from what appears to be a troll, I’d just like to point out that my prompt was to write paragraph-long responses using the voice I use around the web.
I knew most of the other contributors and knew that they would write well thought-out and insightful comments. So I thought humor would be an appropriate response to the questions, especially since I was a representative of ONTD, an incredibly lighthearted and snarky corner of fandom. Sorry it wasn’t SRS BSNS for some people, but there are a ton of fans who choose to enjoy the series and show without the need for squabbling and close-readings of the text.
Kudos to the other contributors! I really enjoyed your comments.
BexQuote Reply
Haha don’t take it so personal mate!!
I’m sorry that you didn’t like that I didn’t like your post…next time I’ll try harder to like it! (’cause clearly that’s what the problem was;)
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Hahah.
Nice reference to Marie-Antoinette, Serena :P
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Haha again with Elio!! I inadvertedly must have touched a tricky subject ;)
Look, if you check again you’ll see I never said I was dissapointed when I didn’t saw Elio, I said (in a Post Scriptum, in between brackets) that I expected (in my limited knowledge of the ASOIAF) Elio to be in the panel, when I read the “strong voices” remark.
I actually thought “great, some new voices I never heard off, let’s see what they have to say”!. I was dissapointed at what they said, wich is a totally different thing.
Well sorry to you (I guess? I’m not sure if you are one of the commenters) if you felt insulted or offended…I apologize ’cause that was not my intention. Maybe is the language barrier (I don’t think so), or maybe is that you have too soft skin (who doesn’t on the internet?), but I don’t think that was that insulting or offensive, really. More than a language thing I think it must be a cultural thing. Mediterranean vs Anglosaxon? Could be…
Did I? That maybe a language thing then ’cause I never wanted to imply that. (A “real” fan, good/bad fan, what those that even mean?) Sorry again ;)
Of ‘course I’m not!! Quite the opposite ;) There I think you went too far hehe…(you really think I think writing this makes me “better” than the rest of the people? noooo)
PS: And to Bex, I always found funny how easy is to call Troll someone when he doesn’t agree with you ;)
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Thanks Fury for letting me participate. It was fun and I loved reading the other responses as well!
Elio and Linda aren’t the be all and end all of fandom. Quite frankly, they can be downright racist in their commentary and are extremely insulting towards more female corners of fandom. They are just two people with rather disturbing views, not the whole of fandom. I was quite glad to see that WiC brought out less mainstream voices and I got to read about people I don’t usually hear about.
Why exactly do you find this stupid? There are many who are rooting for Stannis, and by law he is Robert’s true heir. Shireen by law is Stannis’s true heir. So from a legal standpoint it is not unfeasible. Of course this is a world where might rules so anything could happen on the battlefield. And if you’ve read Dance, you’ll know that much more ado was given to Shireen, and the mysteries of greyscale, and there is the stone dragon prophecy. Her great grandmother was after all a Targ. GRRM looks like he’s cooking something up in the Shireen corner, fingers crossed. I’m very attracted to the idea of a girl who has been very ignored, despite her advantageous position in the game, and has suffered from a disfiguring illness be the one to rise to the occasion and rule over all.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
Haha so I did inadveterdly stumble onto an ongoing war!!
Look, I had no idea Elio and Linda were racists, mysoginists etc etc…as I said, I thought he’d be on the panel when I read the “strong voices” remark, but I was not dissappointed when I didn’t see him , quite the opposite.
I also was quite glad to see that WiC brought out less mainstream voices and I got to read about people I don’t usually hear about, I just thought what they had to say was not, how can I say it without ofending anyone…was not up to my taste, because I was expecting not a pendantic analysis blablabla, I was expecting honest answers (like the ones you posted), not people trying to be witty (and can I say failing? In my opinion, failing . If I had found the answers witty, they wouldn not have bothered me as much. But I probably didn’t find them witty ’cause I fail at english)
There ;)
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
Just wanted to say that I enjoyed this roundtable, and to be honest, I find some of the “uber serious” analysis and discussion of GoT/ASoIaF to be somewhat pretentious and tiring after a while. This is certainly just a difference of opinion on my part, since I tend to not enjoy debating things into the ground or picking apart a subject until all that is left is a carcass.
If you look at this series as a whole, it is fairly bleak, people. Having some humor to lighten up the discussion is certainly welcome in my book, and I don’t think it necessarily negates the sentiments expressed or makes them a “lesser” opinion. Most humor/satire has an underlying truth or thread to it, that, if you choose, you can pick it apart until the cows come home.
Considering FaBio‘s somewhat bizarre one-man stance against indigo, for example, I consider this site as one of the places where some humor can be found while discussing GoT.
MORE HUMOR…LESS “GATES”!!!! XD
AoifeQuote Reply
Shireen on the Iron Throne? I shudder at the thought… Maybe she’ll wed SweetRobin Arryn for the sickest mostly likely to fail couple in Westeros. I’m sure GRRM will come up with an ending much more satisfying than Shireen.
Hoping for Dany or Jon (Or both!). Anyone think Aegon Targaryen is legit?
IcebirdQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
Having read ADWD, I gotta say I think things are not looking all too well for poor Shireen. While I don’t believe Ramsay’s letter, there isn’t many facts to support the idea that he’s lying. So Shireen is basically caught amongst the wildlings, who fear her, and a few nightswatchmen, who just killed their lord commander, and are imo not to be trusted … they might very well hand the whole Baratheon bunch, Mel included, to Ramsay. And also more importantly; Mel is (very likely) on the virge of discovering, that Stannis after all is not the true AA, so she’ll need some king’s blood to feed her flames. Shireen has king’s blood … not sure if anyone else, currently present at the wall, has it. I, being a Stannis fan, hate this theory, but knowing the way of GRRM(or probably not, actually), I think it’s quite likely.
PepiQuote Reply
Amazing post is amazing.
slave2thewageQuote Reply
clare,
Speak for yourself. Silliness is always welcome, IMO.
Cersei_II,
Sansa also has a unique perspective on Littlefinger that nobody else has, so I think that’s probably giving her too much credit. I think she’s learning, though. Sansa was never dumb, just young, naive and totally invested in what her world and culture were telling her she should be totally invested in. She’s grown up a lot. Book 1 Sansa couldn’t have helped Sweet Robin down from the Eyrie the way she did. She’d have frozen up, or whimpered until someone else took care of her. Compare the way she sees Littlefinger now to the way she regarded Joff and the Cersei in Book 1, she’s figuring shit out.
witless chumQuote Reply
Came by to read and support my girl Serena, who I find funny and insightful, and who doesn’t make me feel stupid about my analysis of these books. I’ll continue to support her whenever and wherever I can, and I really enjoyed the other perspectives. Kudos to WiC for this roundtable, and I hope to see more stuff like this in the future.
A little sense of humor about this show and the books is a good thing, IMO. Never a good idea to take anything too seriously.
krtmdQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
Uh, what? Is Linda and Elio’s alleged racism and dislike of “female corners of fandom” a real thing or something that only you can see?
witless chumQuote Reply
I remember Linda’s “Oh, saying a character should be raped isn’t misogynistic” post over there. Completely lost all respect for that place after that.
slave2thewageQuote Reply
witless chum,
Oh, her tumblr has it in spades.
Special mention goes to pond scum, cunt-stained fingers, fan amoebas, and freaking out at black people.
XenkanMonkQuote Reply
great interview! there should be more of these, if possible, Ours Is The Fury! ^^
kudos!
Thiago SlashQuote Reply
Pau Soriano,
I was talking about this clare/sansa person who clearly has an axe to grind. I don’t particularly care about your opinions.
BexQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
There are a few reasons I hate the idea of Shireen on the Iron Throne. I’m just going to black all of this so I don’t spoil anything for anyone. First, “from a legal standpoint” doesn’t really hold much weight. If legality really mattered then the Targaryens or Stannis would be in charge right now. Too many competing for the throne for it to end without might being what wins out in the end. So what might does she have behind her? Yes, you could kill off Dany, Jon Snow, Aegon, the Lanisters etc. and have her as the last one standing but why would anyone follow her? Who is going to be her muscle to keep the Throne? Is the North going to back her when they find out Rickon is alive? Do you kill him off too? It seems such a stretch to come up with a realistic scenario where she has enough power to take the throne.
Second, the prophecy doesn’t call for a stone dragon. It said, “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.” It talks about waking dragons out of stone, not stone dragons. Also notice the plural dragons and not a dragon out of stone. So that makes it even harder to stretch it into meaning that because she has grey scale that she is the metaphorical dragon of the prophecy. Shireen also would need to be reborn amidst smoke and salt which she has not done. I don’t think GRRM would write “when” the red star bleeds… if he meant that being born on Dragonstone more than a decade before the red star will suffice. And why not just say born instead of reborn if that suffices? It seems very difficult to come up with an explanation of how she fits the prophecy better than Dany. I mean there is nothing in the prophecy that Dany doesn’t fit. You can even begin to make a much stronger case for Jon Snow now than Shireen.
Lastly, I am supposed to believe that GRRM writes nearly 5000 pages and the person who is going to take over the Iron Throne is a character that couldn’t even fill a page with her dialogue so far? I mean if he really wants to have a surprise ending then yeah he can have a character that virtually nobody is emotionally invested in win out but is that what makes a good story? We already know that she isn’t going to be a POV character so how is she even going to become a character that people can get invested in at this point? You could get invested in Robb without being a POV character but that was because other POV characters had such a strong relationship with him. What POV character is going to bring us to feel for this girl? This is why I hate the idea. I would feel cheated if I was thoroughly invested in so many great characters and then some character who is barely an afterthought to me is the ultimate victor.
I personally think Dany is Azor Ahai and if the PwwP is a different person I expect that to be Jon Snow.
DanQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
One last thing, I’m an Rothbardian libertarian so I hope the Iron Throne is destroyed and they go to a free market system that has no king, queen, or government to rule anyone. But unless GRRM has been reading Democracy: The God That Failed or For a New Liberty I don’t think that is likely.
DanQuote Reply
Well, I tend to think of Shireen as a last-one standing type of victory where her claim is already solidified. E.g., Stannis defeats all comers for the Iron Throne, but then everyone dies (successfully) saving westeros from the others, so Shireen is crowned, marries Tommen to knit the realm together, and they bring everlasting peace (and kittens) to Westeros. It’s kind of nice because there’s at least something sweet and cute at the end of it all. :)
userjQuote Reply
userj,
So the king is dethroned and then made king again? That’s an even worse ending. I’d rather get a Soprano type ending than that. If that is what GRRM does then I hope he as least writes an epilogue where Arya comes in and assassinates them both leaving the Seven Kingdoms leaderless. No way, no how are two weakling kids going to rule the day with an abundance of fantastic characters to choose from. If you’re even thinking along these lines George then just send me a copy with the last bit of the book blank and I’ll write my own ending.
DanQuote Reply
Now you guys have me hoping for the death of a character I had given very little thought to. What kind of person have you turned me in to? I’m praying for the demise of a young disfigured girl now. Last week I would’ve felt pity if she died and now I’ll feel relieved. I feel dirty.
DanQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
*bows deeply and swishes hat* PondScum, that would be me …
SaphanaQuote Reply
XenkanMonk,
I’m glad somebody brought this up. It bothers me that GRRM and David and Dan talk so highly of westeros.org when one of its admins is so disrespectful to the fans. It’s ok to disagree, but as someone who’s been sort od a semi-official spokesperson for the series, it is unacceptable to be as heinous as she’s been.
KatieQuote Reply
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