Recap round-up: “The Ghost of Harrenhal”
By Ours is the Fury on in Press.

Here are some of the notable recaps and reviews of the fifth episode of Game of Thrones‘s second season:

Book Readers
Axechucker – TVEquals
Sean T. Collins – Rolling Stone
Alyssa Rosenberg – ThinkProgress
Jace Lacob – Televisionary
James Poniewozik – Time
Myles McNutt – Cultural Learnings
Maureen Ryan – Huffington Post
Rowan Kaiser – Press Play
James Hibberd – Entertainment Weekly
Todd VanDerWerff – A.V. Club
Jenna Busch – Zap2It
Westeros.org

New Viewers
Alan Sepinwall – HitFix
Jenifer D. Braun – NJ Star-Ledger
David Sims – A.V. Club
Matt Richenthal – TV Fanatic
Scott Meslow – The Atlantic
John Kubicek – Buddy TV
Larry Williams – OtakuASSEMBLE Before he continues with his regular review, the video includes a “Sansa rant” as Larry calls it, and that portion is largely a talk about Sansa-fans sending Larry hatemail for not liking her. So if you’re a hardcore Sansa fan, this might not be for you. But I think he makes good points about respecting a non-book-reader’s right to develop their feelings for a character over time without book fans insisting he’s wrong because of things from the books.

HBO also provides “Inside the Episode” videos every week:

Formerly HBO included a video recap for each episode, but this week there is only the written synopsis of episode 205.


412 Comments

  1. That's yo Garbage
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:28 am | Permalink
  2. Superdeluxe
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Always love the recap section.

  3. Shady_Grady
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    We did a recap of last night’s episode here.
    http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2012/04/hbo-game-of-thrones-recapthe-ghost-of.html

    It is aimed at people who have not read the books. Spoilers aren’t discussed.

  4. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    SANSA FTW

  5. Jeff
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    I was really expecting something from D & D this week in the Inside the Episode as they clearly have eliminated the Reeds. At least acknowledge it and we can move on so I don’t expect them to show up at some point!

  6. Superdeluxe
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Andy Greenwald’s piece was really good:

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/48593/game-of-thrones-season-2-episode-5-the-ghost-of-harrenhal

    He is not a reader, but he makes some really good points about the lack of flexibility a literal translation like Game of Thrones has.

  7. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    That guy Otaku is an asshole. I opt for NOT posting his reviews here. They’re extremely offensive and offer no substantial non-book reader insight that we couldnt get anywhere else. In this Sansa-rant he’s made crime victims feel personally slighted, even guilty for “sacrificing” aka not killing themselves. Take his link out please.

  8. Mike from Braavos
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Haha – I just read your post on the other topic about how you missed Sansa this episode and though – I hope that person doesn’t watch Larry’s recap this week! : )

    Larry isn’t normally THAT offensive – but as a book reader who also hates Sansa, I loved it.

    He did got a little too far IMHO w/ the victim thing. I agree w/ his point about how people put victims on pedestals unnecessarily – but I don’t agree w/ how he said he doesn’t feel sorry for them. You can feel sorry for someone who has suffered a tragedy without elevating their character assessment b/c of said tragedy.

    As much as I disliked Sansa while reading the books, I definitely felt bad for her.

  9. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    DB:
    That guy Otaku is an asshole. I opt for NOT posting his reviews here. They’re extremely offensive and offer no substantial non-book reader insight that we couldnt get anywhere else. In this Sansa-rant he’s made crime victims feel personally slighted, even guilty for “sacrificing” aka not killing themselves. Take his link out please.

    Oh please ,shut up . Larry has been linked here since his season 1 reviews which were awesome so just because you disagree with him on the subject does not mean he doesn’t deserve to be linked . Also stop thinking you are a majority telling people what to do .

  10. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    DB: That guy Otaku is an asshole. I opt for NOT posting his reviews here. They’re extremely offensive and offer no substantial non-book reader insight that we couldnt get anywhere else. In this Sansa-rant he’s made crime victims feel personally slighted, even guilty for “sacrificing” aka not killing themselves. Take his link out please.

    Larry is a pretty popular reviewer on this site, and a lot of people enjoy his stuff. Feel free not to watch his videos if you don’t like his stuff. Sorry but I just can’t agree with the whole “I don’t like it, so nobody else should be exposed to it” school of though.

  11. Ramah
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    DB:
    That guy Otaku is an asshole. I opt for NOT posting his reviews here. They’re extremely offensive and offer no substantial non-book reader insight that we couldnt get anywhere else. In this Sansa-rant he’s made crime victims feel personally slighted, even guilty for “sacrificing” aka not killing themselves. Take his link out please.

    Personally I find Larry’s reviews to be the highlight of the review list. Especially when he gets animated over something.

    DB, there’s more than you here and if you don’t like the guy then don’t follow the links. Simples.

  12. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    DB,

    His reviews are quite popular, even if he has touched a sore point with some viewers in this subject. I understand that not everyone will like his reviews. I don’t agree with your interpretation of his views in this case, and I will be keeping his link in. Obviously you’re not a fan of his and that is totally your call.

  13. greymouser
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Wow, I think Larry Williams needs to quit watching the show…like now. Not because he dislikes Sansa (which is totally his right as a viewer), but because his arguments against her as a character don’t match up with his admiration for other characters who share similar qualities. His opinion that he doesn’t like that she initially wasn’t there for her family is fine, but then why admire Tyrion or Cersei, who hate each other, do everything they can to undermine each other, and wouldn’t shed a tear if the other died? There are numerous characters who are backstabbers, liars, opportunists, etc, so why not throw some hate their way? Because they’re successful at it? He seems to come from the Ned Stark school of thought in regards to many things (and that’s very admirable), but that’s why I think he might be engaging in the wrong series; the Ned Starks get killed in Game of Thrones. Nobility, honor, courage…these are great qualities, but in this world (unlike in Tolkien or many other fantasy stories) they won’t necessarily serve you well. His comments on Stannis being cowardly for not fighting Renly in the field are an example of this…Stannis basically said to Davos in the last episode that the cleaner ways of doing things don’t win wars. Robb Stark didn’t fight Jamie Lannister in single combat when Jamie challenged him…was this some cowardly move? Or was Robb being smart, not rising to Jamie’s challenge, knowing he couldn’t beat him at his own game and so deciding to beat him at a different one? I’ve enjoyed some of the guys reviews in the past, but this latest one just seemed overly aggressive, rude, and almost hateful (especially to book readers who had an opinion on his take on Sansa…if they were this rude to him, then I guess I can understand his response). However, I’ve read the books, I’ve watched the television show, and even if I hadn’t read the books, there are a number of times we see Sansa either being defiant of Joffrey (“Maybe my brother will bring me your head”…then trying to push herself and Joffrey off the ledge but getting interupted by the Hound), or outwitting him (saving Dontos at the beginning of the season by playing on Joffrey’s need to humiliate others). Even Tyrion has shown that he understands what Sansa is doing and admires it (“Lady Stark, you may outlast us all”). Just because she doesn’t rush at Joffrey on a suicide mission with a dagger doesn’t mean she doesn’t have courage, and to be honest, Ned wouldn’t want her to throw her life away that way…he would want her to survive. And the argument that Sansa is rude and snotty to others doesn’t hold weight either…practically EVERY character is that way in this story, including Tyrion, Cersei, Jamie, Daenerys, and on and on. If Mr. Williams wants to continue with the story, that’s fine by me, but I don’t think he’s going to be a very happy camper, and I for one can’t continue to watch him rant and rave about his disappointment that the story isn’t matching up with his own expectations. I tried to be as civil and fair-minded as I could in this posting, so hopefully people don’t unload on me now.

  14. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Hibberd calls the shadow baby the Smoke monster and suggests the name Deus Ex Machina. I love the double LOST reference — the 19th episode of LOST was so titled. I don’t think it was a true Deus Ex Machina moment, however, because Mel’s magical abilities were sufficiently hinted at in earlier episodes. I would call it Deus Ex Vagina, though. Which is kind of cool because “vagina” in Latin means “sheath” or “scabbard”.

    Hibberd doesn’t seem to have a problem with Arya offing The Tickler.

    Across the country, viewers jump up on the couches yelling “Joffrey!” But you can’t really blame Arya for picking somebody more local and more recently loathsome — the man known as The Tickler who’s been torturing prisoners.

    I remember when reading the books and saying to myself, “Why did she pick that guy? Why not this guy? That effect is the same. I understand Winter’s point last night about the Jaqen/Arya/The Tickler business. I’m reserving judgment at this time.

    Hibberd’s take on the Brienne/Catelyn scene was interesting:

    she [Brienne] can sometimes seem stiff, formal and dramatic instead of seeming like somebody who’s supposed to be stiff, formal and dramatic. Does that make sense? Her near-comedic, humorless intensity is a deliberate part of her character, but given how quickly things are moving on the show, it’s not entirely clear that, yes, other characters see her that way too.

    Hibberd read the books. Larry didn’t. Larry loved this scene. All is well.

  15. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Oh, I see the Sansa supporters here are gonna be raving this thread .

  16. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    By keeping his link, you’re telling me you condone what he says. No thank you.

  17. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Again, that is your interpretation and I’m not going to bother arguing with you about it. Enjoy the other recaps or not. Your call.

  18. rolle
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    The quality of OtakuAssemble’s reviews has significantly dropped this season. He is not discussing some events due to not liking some characters and secondly he has forgot/missed a lot of other important scenes. I miss his season 1 reviews where he analyzed and speculated much more and was making his theories of things to come. His spark is now gone. There are better reviewers on YouTube so why not include them as well. It is not like there is an abundance of non-reader reviews.

  19. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    thank you for the disclaimer about Larry’s review. His point about Sansa being an “asshole” is fine, but the rest of it is crap. Its myopic to blame Sansa for not killing herself and Joff in the process. I am reminded of blaming victims who were killed because they “didn’t do anything” to stop it. BUT then he goes and notices the GIRL POWER moment between Brienne and Cat, which some people didn’t even get!! I love that. So yeah, unfortunately, he seems to really love female characters who display more “masculine” strength than “feminine” weakness.

  20. greymouser
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    And let me just add that I have no problem with Mr. Williams having a different opinion than me on any issue under the sun, or him liking to play fast-and-loose in his reviews to give them a more emotional and personal feeling. It’s just that he went way overboard in this latest review, almost going out of control at certain points and barely suppressing what seems like a lot of rage. I personally don’t enjoy watching a review and being told to “fuck off”, and maybe some of you think that’s a reasonable response from a rational human being, but not me…that’s not the way I was raised.

  21. Maxwell James
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    People need to stop taking so much offense at other people’s opinions. This isn’t science, or even politics. It’s responses to a work of art. If you don’t like what someone has to say, just ignore them.

  22. Ramah
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    DB:
    Ramah,

    If you find some guy telling victims to essentially kill themselves to be the highlight of the recaps, good on you, boy.

    Not watched it yet. Waiting till after I see the episode here in the UK. So although I’d like to say “he is talking about a character he dislikes, not a real person – get over yourself” I’ll have to resist.

    Unless he actually says that “I wish all victims would kill themselves” I’m pretty sure I will be able to chalk it up as one persons opinion about a character in a TV program though. Shrug.

  23. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Yeah, I’ll try to not take offense to being told to “fuck off.” Wow, that guy has so much ~respect for his viewers.

  24. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Though I don’t agree with a lot of his views, I do find Larry’s reviews amusing, more so in the fact that most of his predictions in where the show is going are usually wrong. I also do not agree with his views on the whole “Sansa situation”, but he is entiltled to his opinion, which may not be liked in the majority, but that should not be a reason to exclude him from here. He’s as big of a fan of GOTs as much as any fan of ASOIAF are. I’m sure there are characters in the series you either can’t stand or can’t relate to…he just might be more emotionally vocal about it than others (which always causes backlash from people who have different opinions). Do I like his views on Sansa or anybody in that same situation: no. Do I think he should be “banned” from this site: no. His opinion is his own as yours is…yours. From my experience talking with people, it is EXTREMELY difficult argueing with someone when they think they are right. Very rarely do people’s opinions change…except in movies. And his quote “Go f*ck yourself with a flaming dildo…” had me howling!!!

  25. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Ramah,

    Instead of being completely shallow about this, why don’t you think about the moral implications this person gives off by saying that Sansa should have killed herself? What do you think that says about how he feels about a “real person” if he or she were put in a similar abusive relationship? There’s more to this than just an opinion of a fictional character.

  26. greymouser
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Hey, opinions about art are just as important as those about science or politics; art helps define societies and is hugely important in shaping people’s lives. People are allowed to have opinions, be criticized for those opinions, and criticize others in return, it’s just that I wish more people would do it in a civil manner. It’s easy to just blatantly call people who think differently than you do names or curse them out; it’s harder to calmly and rationally explain your side of things and why you disagree with someone else. Yes, sometimes emotion creeps into things, that’s somewhat inevitable, but if you let it completely overtake reason then you’re defeating your own argument before you’ve even begun…and that goes for all sides.

  27. greymouser
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    And I’ll just finish by saying this…by no means should Mr. Williams’ reviews be removed from this site. I’m not about censoring or removing opinions, even if I disagree with them. He has as much right to say what he wants to say as anyone else, and he has the right to say it in the way he wants. And other people have the right to either listen and agree, listen and disagree, or not listen at all. The end.

  28. Random fan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    DB:
    That guy Otaku is an asshole. I opt for NOT posting his reviews here. They’re extremely offensive and offer no substantial non-book reader insight that we couldnt get anywhere else. In this Sansa-rant he’s made crime victims feel personally slighted, even guilty for “sacrificing” aka not killing themselves. Take his link out please.

    No offense but YOU sound like an asshole (and not to single you out, but the others ranting about this do too). Larry Williams is an awesome, passionate reviewer. And if he is getting hate mail for not liking a FICTIONAL F’N character in a review of a FICTIONAL f’n story, he deserves to rant and rave about it. This is a TV show for gods sake. He’s right, everyone has the right to their own opinions without being hated on, so to have the gall to go to his sight and call him sexist or whatever is ridiculous. So keep on keepin on Larry! Most of the people who don’t have their heads up their buttocks (and I’m a book reader and not even a sansa hater) love your reviews, and appreciate what you offer to our community. Thanks! And for those who don’t like it, in his words, F off! =)

  29. T-Good
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    DB,

    I agree that Larry was over the top this week, but let’s not jump to conclusions. He was just out of control a little bit, give him a chance.

  30. greymouser
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Random fan,

    No, actually, for those who don’t like it, they don’t like it…they don’t deserve to be cursed out any more than he does. He’s not an idiot for thinking the way he thinks, and his critics aren’t idiots for thinking the way they think. You can support him all you want, but don’t reduce the whole thing to name-calling…there’s a difference between being passionate and being hateful.

  31. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    ok WiC, let’s start a new topic to comment about, you just have to title it either:
    Larry Williams…YES or NO
    or
    Otaku Assemble!!!…Should they be allowed to assemble here or not??

    Seems all the other reviewers you posted aren’t getting nearly the attention that good ol’ Larry is

  32. garik16
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    For the record, Larry’s view on Sansa is interesting…..BECAUSE ITS THE MOST COMMON VIEW FROM READERS AFTER BOOK 2.

    Seriously, I thought they’ve made her more sympathetic in the TV adaptation and the loss of her inner monologue has made things better for her, but if you’re objecting to this you’re forgetting how people (including myself) reacted after parts of ACOK.

    Sansa is not a standard fantasy heroine, and that throws people off who want standard fantasy female characters….people don’t watch or read these things to like the damsel in distress – and most damsels in distress don’t get as much screentime.

  33. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    I like Larry Williams’ GoT reviews. It’s like watching a three-year-old juggle knives. It’s scary, clumsy and dangerous, yet I can’t look away. He hasn’t read the books and doesn’t want to. You know he watches each episode closely so if he misses something or gets something wrong it probably isn’t his fault, so I say “Ouch. It’s okay, Larry, put a band aid on that M&Fer and keep going.” But when he gets something right it’s total awesomeness, and I say, “Yeah Larry, you the man!”

    Regarding the Sansa Rant, someone called him sexist. He probably could have handled it with more grace, but then he wouldn’t be Larry.

    I think the important point here is that some non-book viewers are having a real problem with the character of Sansa, and Larry is helping us understand why that is.

  34. Blood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    I thought Larry’s rant was over the top and think his attitude towards Sansa is strange. That shouldn’t mean that his reviews should be removed from the links however. He got “famous” for his rambling discombobulated non-reader reviews that didn’t really make much sense, and still don’t some of the time. Swearing, ranting, telling viewers to fuck off, etc. is all within his style. I may not agree with him a lot of the time but you know what you are getting if you watch his videos and being emotional and opinionated even if the opinions are wrong is what people look for in his reviews.

  35. coronaking
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs:
    Seems all the other reviewers you posted aren’t getting nearly the attention that good ol’ Larry is

    Are you surprised? His review is the only one in video format.
    Of course it’s much more appealing than all the written ones.

  36. Ed
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair:
    I like Larry Williams’ GoT reviews.It’s like watching a three-year-old juggle knives.It’s scary, clumsy and dangerous, yet I can’t look away.He hasn’t read the books and doesn’t want to.You know he watches each episode closely so if he misses something or gets something wrong it probably isn’t his fault, so I say “Ouch.It’s okay, Larry, put a band aid on that M&Fer and keep going.”But when he gets something right it’s total awesomeness, and I say, “Yeah Larry, you the man!”

    Regarding the Sansa Rant, someone called him sexist.He probably could have handled it with more grace, but then he wouldn’t be Larry.

    I think the important point here is that some non-book viewers are having a real problem with the character of Sansa and Larry is helping us understand why that is.

    Good post.

  37. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair: I like Larry Williams’ GoT reviews. It’s like watching a three-year-old juggle knives. It’s scary, clumsy and dangerous, yet I can’t look away. He hasn’t read the books and doesn’t want to. You know he watches each episode closely so if he misses something or gets something wrong it probably isn’t his fault, so I say “Ouch. It’s okay, Larry, put a band aid on that M&Fer and keep going.” But when he gets something right it’s total awesomeness, and I say, “Yeah Larry, you the man!”Regarding the Sansa Rant, someone called him sexist. He probably could have handled it with more grace, but then he wouldn’t be Larry.I think the important point here is that some non-book viewers are having a real problem with the character of Sansa, and Larry is helping us understand why that is.

    Well put. I enjoy Larry too, but he definitely has moments where you can’t help but cringe.. but it’s almost like that’s his charm.

  38. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Please folks, let’s keep the discussion civil. You can agree or disagree with Larry’s views, but no need to start personally attacking people. I will have to delete any further comments that cross that line.

  39. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    coronaking,

    Nope , not surprised at all, just trying to poke fun at this whole situation we got going on here. I just love passionate and faithful fans, whether it be Larry Williams or the previous commenter DB, or everyone on here in fact. It’s fans like them and sites like this that let us have a voice that keep shows like this from dying out.

  40. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    coronaking: Klavonivs, Are you suprised? His review is the only one in video format.Of course it’s much more appealing than all the written ones.

    I know this is totally off-topic, but am I the only one who is actually put off by video reviews?

    Whenever I go online to look up an article/review/etc, I want text. I never want a video, because a video means I have to watch the entire length of the video to get the information I want. I want text. I want to be able to skim through and pick out the information I need. This isn’t to say I don’t read entire bodies of text, but oftentimes I pick out one thing then read around it. Morever, I can read most articles or reviews quicker than the entire duration of a video — especially Larry’s which are like 20 minutes long. I like Larry’s video reviews because we get to see how animated he gets.. I just wish he’d edit them and make them shorter and sexier.

  41. alde
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Sansa lover here.

    Larry is awesome, insightful and authentic; the kind of person I’d love to make into my friend.

    To you-know-who: don’t be such zealots. If you don’t like the guy, don’t watch him and stop bitching. It’s not like you’re doing anything constructive.

  42. Random fan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    greymouser,

    there IS a difference. i bet the hate mail he got is just as bad or even worse than what he gave out. it’s just that what HE gets is sent by internet tough guys hiding behind a wall of anonymity which HE doesn’t have, since he puts his face out there every week.

    yes, as you said there’s a difference between “being passionate and being hateful.” and he got HATE MAIL. you hold a non-professional reviewer to too high a standard. he is only giving what he got, yet he got his hate under ridiculous circumstances over views on a fictional show. he is responding to REAL people making REAL accusations on his REAL character. and for what he offers to us fans, he has the right to fire back. period. Sorry but you guys are wrong. Long live Larry

  43. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Larry Williams is extremely homophobic IMO. Why is he still linked here?

  44. garik16
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook,

    Yes for the most part. I prefer written reviews because I can read them fast. So I’m happy that 95% of the reviews listed above are written reviews.

    That said, for a review posted up there as an example of a fan reaction to a show, I think that the emotion carries through better if it’s in video.

    For the best, I wish someone could transcribe the video so that those who don’t have time to watch could read it in 5 minutes rather than take 25 minutes to watch, but it’s okay for one review.

  45. Superdeluxe
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    DB,
    Because he is a popular recapper for game of thrones?

    Weirwood:
    Larry Williams is extremely homophobic IMO. Why is he still linked here?

  46. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Myles McNutt and his Cultural Learnings are the best reviews. I especially loved what he said about the Dany-Irri-Doreah dynamic and the symbolism of Dany’s disposition projected from her handmaids. Very insightful.

  47. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    I agree with you. (It seems my other post agreeing with you was deleted).

  48. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Strange, when I was watching Larry’s video the little audience in my head was giving him a standing ovation. If you don’t like his position regarding Sansa that’s fine but to personally attack him (like some of you are doing here) is uncalled for. It is rather amusing to see people making his point for him though. If you Sansa fanatics don’t like it so much than don’t watch his videos. Personally I think Larry should snack on your bawwwing.

  49. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Superdeluxe,

    Have you seen his review of the first Renly/Loras scene?

  50. alde
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    He doesn’t enjoy watching homoerotic scenes. Sure, he was a bit rude about it in the first Loras x Renly episode, but he was fine after that. Hell, he was rooting for Renly. You call that extreme homophobia?

  51. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Yes! He is extremely homophobic as well. I can’t believe our comments get deleted while his videos are still put on this website lol the Irony.

  52. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    alde,

    Bill Burr has a nice bit on this attitude, for some people unless you are cheering on the relationship and calling advice to them in the bedchamber and watching lustily you must be homophobic. Only liking hetero scenes is a clear sign of bigotry, everyone knows that

    /sarcasm

  53. Bgap
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps Larry should have saved his Sansa rant for the end of his review. While I also appreciate and enjoy his passion and emotional responses to the story, the rant went on and on. It became more about his own personal therapy than anything specific to the series.

  54. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    DB, I haven’t deleted anybody’s comments. I’m not sure what Weirwood is talking about.

    And Larry’s reviews are linked here because they are popular and lots of people enjoy them. If you don’t, then don’t watch them.

  55. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    alde,

    Change Homoerotic to Afrocentric and see if you would defend someone dismissing characters based on their cultural identities and refusing to discuss them in a review.

  56. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    DB: Weirwood, Yes! He is extremely homophobic as well. I can’t believe our comments get deleted while his videos are still put on this website lol the Irony.

    You’re comments are getting deleted because all you are doing is making defensive quips to anyone who disagrees with you.

    As far as his homophobia, I haven’t watched any of his season 1 reviews, but of his season 2 reviews (havent watched the two most recent) he hasn’t given me that impression. In fact, I think he liked Renly. Was he calling them fags and saying homosexuality has no place on the show? Or was it more along the lines of “I get uncomfortable during homoerotic scenes” because if it’s the latter, it’s not homophobia. Theres big difference between being put off by homoerotica and being homophobic.

  57. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I posted that I also thought Larry Williams was an asshole. And that more people are starting to see that. That post is now gone. Do you have other Mods or Administrators?

  58. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Nope, multiple comments of mine have been deleted.

    Funny, they said the same thing about Rush Limbaugh.

  59. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    I think the only proper response here is “no u”

  60. alde
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    I’d prefer them not to discuss it rather than rant about it, certainly. Makes it easier to forgive.

    I wish there were more assholes like him.

  61. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook,

    I am astounded that you delete my comments and accuse me of being defensive when you allow offensive comments by Larry Defenders to stand. You are not exactly an impartial judge here.

    And I also disagree with your assessment of my comments. I was not making quips at people who disagreed with me. I am stating my opinion, just as the Larry defenders are.

    Sorry YOU are so easily offended in your fanboy/girl love of Larry Williams. Now THAT was a defensive quip! (in my best Tyrion impression).

  62. Unrobb
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    That would be his right.

  63. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Ok, one of the other mods has been removing comments that violate my above request of conversing civilly and not resorting to name-calling and personal attacks.

    As I said, any comments that contain personal attacks will be deleted.

    ETA: And for the record, we’ve had to delete comments from “Larry supporters” as well. So there is no bias here, just trying to keep the discussion civil.

  64. LordStarkington
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    I take Larry’s reviews with a grain of salt – he’s not a book reader, he obviously gets very (perhaps too) invested in the characters and he seems to judge characters based on how well they fit roles he enjoys (Arya, for example, as a tomboy heroine) versus those that don’t (Sansa, obviously). I don’t agree with him quite often but within that context I still usually enjoy seeing his videos to see what he thought.

    I did think he was really over the top in this week’s review though, although a lot of his actual arguments are ones I’ve seen from book readers too (“It’s her fault”, “She should just kill Joffrey”, etc.). Still, he’d probably have been better off editing it out or something, as I found it off-putting.

  65. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Agree wholeheartedly. He is actually going out of his way to offend people with his “opinions” like “Sansa is a bitch!” Wow, what an opinion right?

  66. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Random fan,

    Was thinking the same thing on the “doppleganger effect.” I say let’s not give “them” any more fuel to their fire of hate towards Larry and other faithful fans. Funny that these two sound more hateful than Larry, calling him homophobic now

  67. PatD
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    DB: why don’t you take a deep breath and think about this for a few minutes. Most of what you saw in this week’s vidcast by Larry was a reaction of someone getting inundated with hate mail. Over comments about a fictional character! You have no idea how vile or offensive that hate mail might have been. I’m thinking it must have been pretty bad for Larry to go off like he did. The guy’s only human, for Pete’s sake. And his offensive remarks were addressed to those who sent the hate mail, so why would that upset you (unless you were one of them)?

    There’s a very simple solution if you find him too offensive for your tastes: don’t click on the link every week. Some of us are able to put his reviews in a much more objective light, don’t take all of his rants literally, and understand that they are coming from someone who doesn’t have all the backstories from the books. I’m a reader, yet I can perfectly understand non-readers not liking or understanding Sansa’s character, to this point.

    His is just another opinion, and mandating that his link be deleted from this site assumes that intelligent, balanced fans can’t determine things from his reviews for themselves.

    I think you are taking this way too seriously and personally.

  68. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs,

    Lol if you don’t like my comments, why don’t you take Ours Is The Fury’s and Winter Is Coming’s advice and close your eyes to it.

  69. PatD
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    And here I thought we were going to have a Gate-free week.

    Silly me.

  70. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Other than agreeing that I thought Larry Williams is an asshole (which was in response to DB’s post) there was no name calling (especially of other posters here) except by Larry’s defenders like “Random Fan” above.

    You may want to take a look at who you have moderating for you (just a suggestion).

  71. Random fan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Funny thing is these people complain, and yet now they spew stuff and it gets kept while other stuff most people agree with gets deleted. The vocal minority (much like the tea party), 2 people in this case, have played the persecution role so well they are now being allowed to get away with saying whatever while others get deleted.

  72. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    PatD,

    You’re essentially telling me to just not do anything about something that offends me, for which I say, frankly, I don’t want to. I’ll give my opinions about Larry’s review and if you don’t like them, try taking your own advice and don’t read them.

  73. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    Well in his defense the Sansa supporters did start it. I suppose the high road would have been to ignore the Sansa fanatics attacking him but instead he chose to respond which I can understand. He didn’t simply dismiss her but listed specifically why he doesn’t like her but apperently that’s not good enough for you. Again I find it amusing that you are proving his point, apparently he isn’t allowed to not like her by “true” fans or some nonsense.

  74. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    The differnece is i am not taking offense to your comments, I’m just stating what I’m seeing here. I don’t NEED to take my eyes off of anything on here because I’m fine with it. I’m not trying to censor you…i’m just trying to make you go away:)

  75. Random fan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    my post was deleted too. believe me it’s not just you. so they are being neutral. and you call larry a bad name, and i use the same exact word, but yours is ok however mine is name calling? hahaha, as i said in my deleted post, last time i check larry is a person so calling him a name is name calling

  76. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs,

    Yes. We are Borg. *rolls eyes*

    Seven forbid two people disagree with you. They MUST be the same person.

  77. PatD
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    I’m not suggesting your posts be censored as you are suggesting the links should be.

    Step away from the computer, DB. Take a breather.

  78. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Please no Star Trek comments on here okay???? This is strictly for ASOIAF…if you want to make a comment like that call “yourselves” the whites…

  79. Dave
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    I find Larry’s (and Jennifer Braun’s) to be the most enjoyable of all the recaps. Larry’s passion and reactions just crack me up. And I agree with Random Fan. Larry is responding to people who have sent him hate mail. I might not have reacted with the same vulgarity but I would still not be happy about it.

    And Larry if you are reading this thread, keep in mind that Sansa is a “proper” lady and very much a girly girl. So her reactions to certain situations would differ from the other “stronger” female characters in the story. Keep up with your great reviews. I watch them every week.

  80. LordStarkington
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    To follow up on my previous post, it’s not just about Sansa that he has…somewhat divergent opinions. In his review this week he criticizes Stannis for, more or less, “not being a real man” and having Renly killed by the shadow rather than on the battlefield.

    Well, sure, it was a cowardly and sneaky thing to do but Larry seems to think that Stannis should have thrown his far inferior force against Renly’s so he could kill his brother in single combat (although he’s against fratricide!), which is both wholly unrealistic in the GOT/ASOIAF universe and also based on Larry’s favoring of traditional hero types.

    So, like I said, the Sansa stuff bothers me but I think it’s more of Larry’s POV being really different than mine. I just wish he’d had enough self-awareness to realize being that confrontational on a video is probably just going to make things worse.

  81. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Larry knows controversy will bring more eyes to his page (and he may get more gifts for being an uber-fan) just look at his phony staged “reaction” rant about Ned’s death last season.

  82. Strepsi
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    The hilarious AfterElton recap is up.

    http://www.afterelton.com/tv/recaps/game-thrones-205

    Sample quote about Renly::
    “A moment for our adorable Otter King, eh? I’ll be shaving one armpit in his honor and flying my flag at half-mast, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.”

  83. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Lord Starkington, anyone who would call him a sexist for not liking Sansa likely isn’t going to be rational regarding him no matter what he does. Might as well meet those people head on.

  84. Random fan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    we all love the story and that is bringing out our passion. isn’t that great? let’s stop the bickering. we’re all in it for the story afterall. let’s agree to disagree and get back to talking about game of thrones. we’re all in the same brotherhood, afterall! this has gotten out of hand. sorry mods, i think i contributed to making this a hard day for you lol. i won’t be saying more on this topic except to each his own, be it reviewer or poster. hopefully others can do the same. >olive branch<

  85. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    uh oh, is this all about jealousy and how he got that poster??? And to say “phony staged reaction”???? My gf nearly had the same reaction (in her mind, not running around the room), just not saying the dredded 6 letter word Lary was saying. Then ALL the non book readers at work all had similar reactions and almost refused to watch the last episode….so saying his response was phony…..are you sure you’re not trying to do the same thing Larry did and “push peoples nerves:?????:)

  86. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs, or, better, Klavonitis,

    I’m glad you’re trying so hard to make me go away. Really, it makes me feel good.

  87. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    lol, staged? he must be a pretty good actor then, he looked genuinely pissed to me

  88. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs,

    This was all hashed out here, last year on these boards, a few days after he posted the Episode 9 rant. BEFORE Larry was given gifts. You have to admire his pavlovian response. “May I have another Please sir?” ;)

  89. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    oh come now, you clearly missed what had happened. I was telling you to go away so in fact you wouldn’t go away….I complimented you way early on in one of my posts about your passion for the show and books. Guess you can say I was instigating this last comment you directed back to me…for that i apologize….see I can be sorry for comments too:)

  90. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Here’s my problem with The Tickler going out early (it could be easily remedied, so it’s not a big deal, but just bear with me here); in the books we see virtually all of the Stark children “go bad”. Bran has no problem whatsoever with invading the bodies of other people and animals (which is a pretty dick thing to do when you really think about it) and he ultimately turns to dark magic, becoming an apprentice of sorts for a corpse in a tree. Rickon is an “angry” child who now keeps company with cannibals on Skagos. Sansa is becoming Littlefinger’s protege, and Arya, most of all, has turned into a remorseless, cold-blooded killer.

    But, much like Truman Capote’s “In Cold Blood”, we have walked a mile in their shoes, and can understand their motivations for doing what they’ve done. We’ve seen them traumatized and abused, their family murdered, their dreams crushed, etc… so we have sympathy for them, rather than disgust. But, if we hadn’t been able to live vicariously through these children, and did not see what they saw, or felt, or thought, we would see them for what they are, rather than for what they once were. Virtually every killer had a messed up childhood. Oftentimes they have witnessed family members murdered, or were the victims of abuse themselves. And, out of all the children, Arya is the most “far gone”, IMO. And when she kills The Tickler (in the books), that’s the first time (as far as I can remember) that we really get to see her unleash her inner rage that she has been bottling up for so long (which, in my view, does not depend on age. But, again, that’s not a difficult problem to solve. By the time S4 rolls around, most non-book readers probably would’ve forgotten about The Tickler anyway, so they can always turn her rage on a more contemporary character when the time comes. But I do think that scene, in and of itself, is somewhat important to Arya’s story arc. The hate inside of her needs to come out at some point).

  91. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Well, if that’s true then all power to him for “tricking” most people, even the writers of the show then. My hat goes off to Larry the thespian :)

  92. Derpstradamus
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Larry’s experience highlights a common issue when talking about Sansa. Whenever a male says they don’t like the character, the Sansa Defence Force crawls out of the woodwork and proclaims that person a sexist. I stay away from the conversations, but I see them all the time on other websites. The same thing happens with Dany. You can dislike a character without having bad taste or being a sexist.

  93. ravens20
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    I’m not a fan of Larry’s reviews simply because he doesn’t seem to care much for the politics and the subleties of the game (like his rant about the Varys/Litlefinger scene being boring last year). While he claims to not want stereotypical characters, he sure seems to complain when characters aren’t swinging swords or acting courageously. But it isn’t even that he doesn’t like certain characters, which is fine, but that he doesn’t seem to appreciate their roles in the themes of the show. Victims and conspirators are critical to show the nature of power and show how many ways there are to survive in a tough world.

  94. LordStarkington
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    gswelcome:
    Lord Starkington, anyone who would call him a sexist for not liking Sansa likely isn’t going to be rational regarding him no matter what he does.Might as well meet those people head on.

    If the only people criticizing him were truly and completely irrational, there’s no real point in confronting them either, is there?

    We also don’t know exactly what was said. I don’t think Larry is actually sexist, for example, but he pretty obviously favors female characters with more masculine traits (Brienne the warrior woman, Arya the tomboy, etc.), so I can see why people mistake preference for…certain types/stereotypes of characters as coming across as sexist. That doesn’t excuse anyone who was inappropriate when messaging him though.

    I simply think he didn’t do himself any favors by expressing himself the way he did – anyone irrationally criticizing him doesn’t care and people on the fence or “politely” criticizing him probably think he’s wound too tight. Anyone criticizing him to troll is now probably encouraged, nobody wins but them.

    Anyway, I’ve probably spent more time on this than I should have. My overall point is that – if you don’t like Larry, he comes across the way he does because he’s a very specific kind of fan. I don’t happen to agree with his judgements on the series (especially his preference for traditional heroics and heroes) but everyone is a fan for their own reasons.

    I’ll still watch him because I think it’s interesting to see what a fan like Larry thinks about the show, and I’ll continue to leave it at that.

  95. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    I am now going to drop Larry-gate. To those who still worship him, enjoy! I will take a “wait and see approach” and see how it all pans out.

  96. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Superdeluxe: Andy Greenwald’s piece was really good:http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/48593/game-of-thrones-season-2-episode-5-the-ghost-of-harrenhalHe is not a reader, but he makes some really good points about the lack of flexibility a literal translation like Game of Thrones has.

    I thought his points were kind of stupid, on one hand he’s saying, “Hey, why can’t people I enjoy watching like Renly survive a little longer so I can be entertained?” while also saying, “The plot is moving too slow!” Never mind that Renly’s death is exactly what moves the plot forward. It exemplifies a certain type of viewer (or reader) who wants the show to conform to their own personal tastes rather than be willing to give themselves over to the experience as presented, and not make a priori assumptions regarding what the show is or should be about.

  97. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs,

    See, although you complimented me in one of my earlier posts, you can’t pull a winteriscoming.net and try to redeem a person by going back in time and looking at ~all the good things they did before in order to let said person get away with nasty comments. Basically, just because you were nice before doesn’t mean you’re nice now. Same thing goes for Larry. just because he was popular and shed some good insight for non-book readers before doesn’t mean he should get away with the hateful comments he’s giving right now.

  98. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    I concur with you and I think I will go outside and enjoy the weather today:)

  99. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    But DB….I’m very nice:) See I even gave you a smiley face to prove my niciness

  100. ravens20
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: I thought his points were kind of stupid, on one hand he’s saying, “Hey, why can’t people I enjoy watching like Renly survive a little longer so I can be entertained?” while also saying, “The plot is moving too slow!” Never mind that Renly’s death is exactly what moves the plot forward. It exemplifies a certain type of viewer (or reader) who wants the show to conform to their own personal tastes rather than be willing to give themselves over to the experience as presented, and not make a priori assumptions regarding what the show is or should be about.

    I couldn’t agree more with this post. It just doesn’t seem like a valid criticism to me that a show diverges from your assumptions or even your preferences for what the show should do…especially when the assumptions are unfounded given the dark and dreary universe we have seen so far.

  101. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    coronaking: Are you surprised? His review is the only one in video format.Of course it’s much more appealing than all the written ones.

    Funny, I personally hate video reviews, and while I watched Larry’s last season I haven’t seen a one this season. Sounds like I’m not missing much. Doesn’t mean they should be removed from the list though, no matter how offensive his opinions might be.

  102. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    If it’s not one stupid argument on here, it’s another. I fail to see why anyone would get so worked up over a YouTube commentator (great as he can be, sometimes) who obviously realizes that responding to all the (unnecessary) hate mail he’s been receiving in kind will generate some “controversy”. Opinions are opinions are opinions, and even if we don’t agree with someone else’s that doesn’t mean they should be attacked personally. We don’t know him, he doesn’t know us. If he were talking about a real person with such a complete and utter lack of sympathy (or empathy, at the very least) I could see it being a big deal, but since he’s reviewing a fictional character in a television show, the outrage seems a little… Well, outrageous. Can we get back to whining about inconsequential changes now, please?

  103. OldGran
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    I always view Larry’s videos and enjoy his perspective as a non-book reader, in spite of the fact that he uses rather “colorful” language.( By colorful I mean atrocious.) I overlook that becaue he no doubt talks like that all the time and dosn’t think anything of it. I have no problem with his opinion about Sansa, however I do mind that he used up a lot of his review time responding to “hate mail” he received on his facebook page. Those of us who just watch the reviews and are not on the FB page did not need to hear all of that vitriol. It overclouded his review. IMO.

  104. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood: Superdeluxe, Have you seen his review of the first Renly/Loras scene?

    Yeah, it made him uncomfortable. That’s not an unusual reaction from a heterosexual man, and at least he was honest about it (I actually thought his visible discomfort was kind of funny).

  105. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    I suppose I’ll give a right back at you to the haters and Sansa drones :)

    @ LordStarkington, I understand where you are coming from but I simply don’t think it would matter, it isn’t as if he or anyone else will change someones mind once its made up heh. Might as well vent a little rage, if it offputs people who would take his side well thats unfortunate. His reviews have always had over the top emotion to it, watching his vids means you accept that.

    But I’ll drop this as well. I’ll just say to what I seem to be seeing to reviews in total is that they think there was too much information in this episode. D&D did go back to cramming all the locations in instead of skipping The Wall or Quarth like they’ve done in the past but even so it seemed to get information imparted well without seeming crammed. Except for Renly’s death at any rate, it happened so fast and then the story just moved on…

  106. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood: Vanderhook, I am astounded that you delete my comments and accuse me of being defensive when you allow offensive comments by Larry Defenders to stand. You are not exactly an impartial judge here. And I also disagree with your assessment of my comments. I was not making quips at people who disagreed with me. I am stating my opinion, just as the Larry defenders are. Sorry YOU are so easily offended in your fanboy/girl love of Larry Williams. Now THAT was a defensive quip! (in my best Tyrion impression).

    Oh wow. First off, I didn’t delete your comments. I’m not a moderator, not sure where you got that impression. Secondly, you made your first point just fine (that you don’t like Larry), but many subsequent posts from you and DB have been this annoying persecution complex. Here’s some examples:

    Yes! He is extremely homophobic as well. I can’t believe our comments get deleted while his videos are still put on this website lol the Irony. – Weirwood

    I posted that I also thought Larry Williams was an asshole. And that more people are starting to see that. That post is now gone. Do you have other Mods or Administrators? – Weirwood

    Nope, multiple comments of mine have been deleted.
    Funny, they said the same thing about Rush Limbaugh. – DB

    At this point, all you guys are doing is being upset that people disagree with you and that mods have deleted comments similar to this. I believe I also read a post by DB responding to a post of mine which was werbatim: “I’m just here to annoy you”. Like thats it, thats the entire post. Sorry but that deserves to be deleted.

    Third, I’m certainly not a Larry “fanboy” (always love when the fanboy accusation starts getting thrown around!) as I’ve even said in this thread that I cringe during certain moments of his videos. I don’t like it when people think that NO ONE should see something that offends them personally. When you ask for it not to be linked here, you’re asking for WiC to deprive it’s userbase of a reviewer a large amount of people enjoy.

  107. Azure Flame
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    I really enjoy Larry’s reviews, including his rants. He has passion and a totally fresh perspective, and that makes him fun to watch. I’m a book-reader, and only started to like Sansa towards the end of ASOS. I’ve seen all of his reviews since Season 1, and I really hope he doesn’t get turned off of doing them because of some thin-skinned and negative reactions.

    Keep it up, Larry!

  108. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook,

    Thank you for your response. You have the right to your opinion. :)

  109. Klavonivs
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook,

    Vanderhook, come outside with me and enjoy the nice weather…I have concluded that it is pointless to argue with people whose opinions will not change. There are many that agree with you and i applaud your comments, but it’s time to let it go and await a new post to comment about….but nicely said in your post though:)

  110. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Wow, I thought Larry’s review was hilarious this week! Sure, his Sansa rant was a little crazy… but it was entertaining as hell. And he wasn’t insulting everyone who likes Sansa, he was speaking to those people who keep emailing him private messages, criticizing him for not liking the character. If you don’t like Larry’s style, don’t watch his reviews, it’s that simple. Personally I still find them entertaining, and will keep watching.

  111. Inka
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    I just find it funny that most of the people who say “This is just Larry’s opinion, everyone is allowed to have one” then go on to say that we should not express our opinion of his recap and just get over it.
    As a Sansa fan I should probably take everyone’s advice and not watch the video, but I have actually enjoyed most of Larry’s reviews so I will give it a try. If he was getting hate mail, I guess his rant could be justified. Just don’t be surprised when you see a follow up rant from me. I have an opinion too and gosh darn it, I have the right to post it on the internet.

  112. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Klavonivs: Vanderhook, Vanderhook, come outside with me and enjoy the nice weather…I have concluded that it is pointless to argue with people whose opinions will not change. There are many that agree with you and i applaud your comments, but it’s time to let it go and await a new post to comment about….but nicely said in your post though:)

    Haha I wish man! I was just on my lunch break — it’s so nice out arghhh.

    But yeah I realized it as I was wrapping up my post and even hesitated posting it entirely: I’m just perpetuated the derailing argument even further.

    I can agree to disagree, I just can’t agree that no one should be exposed to something because it offends a certain segment of the population.

  113. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Sigh, is this the start of LARRYGATE…

    First of he did put a disclaimer on his review. Repeatedly in fact. Second, if you don’t like it then don’t watch it. Let me start this by saying that I am a fan of Larry’s GoT videos. It’s not a professional review so it won’t have the star power or the budget. What it has however is a genuine perspective from someone who is traveling through Westeros for the first time. That’s why I’d assume most people liked about it. He’s giving us a nostalgia into that moment when we first read the series and the mystery about it. He is anything but PC and quite vocal in his affection AND his displeasure.

    So is it any wonder that he took his first real criticism so harshly and lashed out? Seriously, each of the reviewers linked on this site has their strengeth/weaknesses and all come from different backgrounds. When I click on Larry’s review, I get the “In your face Larry segment of GoT I enjoy”. If i wanted to read something profoundly intellectual I’d read Sepinwall, Poniewozik, Mcnutt etc.. Want comical? Hibbert can do no wrong. So why get angry about someone when you know what type of comment/reviews he’ll put on? This is like bit#@@# about the movie being shitty when you knew it was going to be shitty in the first place. Larry isn’t perfect either. Even as a fan I don’t fully buy into his “logic” regarding aspects of the show (and it’s got nothing to do with the fact that I’m a reader).

    He got angry for being called a sexist and blew his lid. He’s angry because he’s offended someone would attack him on his views. The same rules don’t apply to him however, as he obviously blew his stack when he went on his little rant. Seriously, both Sansa fans and Larry need to chillax and hug it out (as Ari Gold would have it). Bottom line is, people are entitled to their opinion, you don’t like them then tune them out.

    As for his personal idea of “girl power” etc.. This is where I would differ as to what makes GoT so refreshing. See when I first read this series back in 99′ it knocked the wind out of me. Having been a fan of the genre since LoTR, the subsequent fare proved to be really cliched and out of touch. The typical, weak protagonist suffering evil and injustice going through a quest to gain power and defeat the evil guys blah blah blah. Add in random romantic interest, some comic foils, some heroic sacrifices and you got your fantasy formula down pat.

    See this was why it was so unappealing to many. As a reader you knew some things would never happen like in real life. GoT comes in and breaks all the rules. No main characters per se, anyone being killed at any time, insane plot twist, characters “behaving” as they should within their station in life. In any other show, if your good guy gets ambushed by 6 dudes then he’d somehow make it out alive. That’s how it works. Did you seriously ever think that Chuck would die in any of his ridiculous situations? What about Jack Bauer? In GoT, if someone is ambushed by 6 dudes in an alley they @#$@$#@ DIE. See the difference?

    It’s not about the dragons, or the wall, or the walkers, or 982938492923 awesome, creepy, insane, funny characters. It’s the fact that this show is NOT behaving like it should be and creating a new genre of “realistic fantasy”. So with this view on things, Sansa is behaving “exactly” like a girl of her station and age would be in that situation. For Larry to dislike her qualities is one thing but to blame her for not “going suicidal” (when she briefly did at the bridge) is not only wrong but short sighted. Sansa is slowly evolving into a player (like her manipulation of twatface to save capt America). You don’t transition from naive young girl to a super schemer in a manner of a few episodes. Just like how Robb is learning to become a leader, Sansa is in her own journey which is still grounded in this “realistic fantasy” setting.

    So let’s all stop the bashing of people’s opinion and stick to blaming HBO for not having enough Hodor.

  114. charles
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Larry Williams is played out. I used to look forwards to his reviews a lot last season, but this year not a single one of them has been good. This week we are treated to an 10 minute long sansa rant that was supposed to be ‘a few minutes’ and ended up being a video of his own.

    I watch his reviews to watch just that, his thoughts (which have been no where near as insightful or witty as last season’s) not a 10 minute, never ending, self-repeating rant about how people can ‘fuck off’.

    Not that i think his points about why he doesn’t like sansa aren’t valid, and i definitly believe the fanbase has been getting uder his nerve for his dilsike of a character, but his reviews this year are boring enough that the last thing they need is HALF of it devoted to something that’s not even in the damn episode.

    As far as new reader reviews i think Andy Greenwald is the best, him and Jenifer Braun. Andy makes good points, and jeniffer gives you more a blow-by-blow recap, but she’s pretty funny.

  115. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    All I can say is, Larry will get what’s coming to him when all his favorites die and Sansa is the last one standing. So, HAH!

  116. Laura Stone
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    AHAHAHAHA. I plus one your comment. AND SERIOUSLY: Hodor, people. I’m staging a sit in for more of that dude. (And more of Brann’s burgeoning mustache.)

  117. Vikestad
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Larry isn’t really doing anything great with the reviews anymore. It was fun the first season, due to his shock and glee but now, it’s boring and nothing annoys me more about the reviews than his silly silly rants.

  118. charles
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    If i didn’t make myself clear enough above, I LIKE larry. I loved staying up to catch his reviews last season, a 20 minute long, in your face, unadultered view of a first timer–that’s his appeal. I still like him, and still stay up to watch his reviews even though i think they haven’t been as good. In fact he himself admitted this a few eps back where his said his attempt at being more of a professional reviewer wasn’t working out.

    So to my surprise i got in thinking i’m going to get treated to a 26 minute long old larry recap, and HALF of it is devoted to a pointless rant that had nothing to do with the episode. Make a damn separate video.

  119. Vanderhook
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    What Larry needs is an editor. Just slice out some of the more rambly parts and dead time and we could get a nice concise 10 minute review.

  120. Arthur
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Who gives a rat’s ass about Larry Williams? Why is he even an issue? Seems like he is this sites Ros.

    I watched a video of his once when I first starting posting on this site just to see what the big deal was. After about 30 seconds I had to click off his link, very annoying and shallow thoughts.

    Larry Williams is this sites Ros. (You know, the whole “creators pet” thing).

    Just ignore it if you don’t like it and move on… There are so many more meaningful breakdowns of the episodes on the links above.

  121. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Goodbye lovely Renly, we will miss you! Superb job Gethin!

  122. Doran's Gouty Toe
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    What I don’t get is WHY people would send Larry ANY kind of mail, hate or not?

    I was a big fan of his first season reviews, where he seemed enthusiastic, energetic, and genuinely earnest about what he was seeing. I’ve been “disappointed” (and I realize it is absurd to have any expectations of a YouTube amateur review) with his second season appraisals though, to the point where I almost didn’t finish the last one. Nothing to do with Sansa.

    I feel he’s becoming too “meta-Larry”, and reacting more and more to the mail and the fan reactions and less and less to the actual show. His emotional reactions were always over-the-top last season, and that was what made it fun. Now he’s all fired up for the damn mail, but strangely a lot colder about the show. He ranted on and on and on about Sansa, but left out large parts of the episode — no mention of Theon, would have loved to see what he is expecting there.

    I might be wrong, but I’m getting a vibe he’s not as emotionally invested in the show as he was last season. Could it be the manifeststion of a general sentiment in the newbies crowd? I hope not.

    Feels like we changed the animal’s habit by feeding it junk food (ANALOGY, I’m not comparing Larry to an animal, I like the guy!). I miss old Larry!

  123. TheBull
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Honestly, I found it strange that he seems to think it’s crazy that people are so emotional about a fictional character when….that’s what his reviews are about. Passionate discussions of characters and stories that aren’t real. And did he forget his response to Ned’s death? Even he realizes he is being a hypocrite and anticipated people calling him out on it.

    I haven’t minded his past comments about Sansa so I don’t see where the hate and sexist accusations came from but the things he said this week made it very uncomfortable to watch. Ignoring the fact that he hates her for the same qualities that he loves in other characters, the things he said about victims and being hateful towards Sansa for not killing herself in order to get rid of Joffrey is just….disturbing. In so many ways.

    To be honest I didn’t watch his recaps for his “insightful views” so I can’t complain in that regard. I watched because I was curious to see how someone who hasn’t read the books was keeping up with the show. I’m not interested in seeing that with him anymore. If anyone has other youtube recapers they can suggest, please post them!

  124. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    You may not like his style of reviews but to label him as the “Ros of reviewers” is just plain wrong. Larry’s got something all those meaningful, insightful reviewers don’t have. He’s got real genuine passion (of both kinds). Would any of those reviewers go off on a rant about how they “killed his n…. ned?” So yeah, it may not be your cup of tea or very constructive but Larry DOES bring something to the table others don’t.

    By contrast Ros brings nothing but an occasional flash of her genitals. What makes me @$##@$#@ hate the character of Ros even more is because:

    1. She is part of D&D’s master plot of the character assassination of Littlefinger from an awesome player to someone reading “Master Schemer for Dummies”.

    2. Taking up VALUABLE TIME that could have been used to lengthen some of the really classic book moments featured on the show.

    So how is Larry the Ros of reviewers? Were all the critics set in stone before HBO’s show and he just randomly crashed the cool party? Call him what you want (though if you call him sexist you know he’ll devote his next 15min cussing you out ), but please don’t classify him as in the same league of the Ros situation.

  125. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany,

    I want my Gethin/Renly Curtain Call!

  126. Inka
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    That was a pretty bad rant, even as far as rants go. I do hope it was just a stupid reaction to hate mail, because 90% of things he says are too ridiculous to be a rational thought on a character. Suggesting that Sansa should kamikaze herself? Seriously?

  127. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Doran’s Gouty Toe,

    I think it’s got mainly to do with the fact they offed two of his main characters. It’s hard to feel passionate about the show when your first love gets taken away (as well as his backup). So yeah I definitely don’t feel the same kind of enthusiasm from Larry. Just like Tywin (with his wife), the best part of Larry died with Ned sadly.

  128. Vikestad
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    The real question should be, would WiC and friends have given Larry a soapbox if he had filmed 25 minutes of nothing more than his living room wall? I actually think this is a valid question at this point. There are bound to be better reviewers on youtube, but once on the list, the list you stay?
    By the way, I don’t appreciate being told to keep my opinion for myself, thank you.

  129. Arthur
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    Hah…

    Good point. Nothing can turn my stomach as much as a Ros scene. Even a pointless Larry rant doesn’t come close.

    Larry is no Ros, my bad…

  130. ItsAllJustAGame
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Larry is the man!! He is a true fan and tells it like it is. If you don’t like him don’t watch him. And I don’t mind Sansa. I feel bad for her and hope she can find a way to get out of the mess. But stop bitching about someone explaining to you why he doesn’t like the character! I agree shes a bitch but I still like her. Anyway keep doing your thing Larry! Don’t change a thing about your reviews!!

  131. fuelpagan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    What is sad is that Larry wasn’t able to allow his views to change based on what is coming up for the character in the future. I think once Sansa moves past the victim stage that she is in right now, he might have started to see the character differently. But now I doubt that will happen.

    Some people just don’t like certain characters, it’s not your job to say someone should like eating beets just because you do. My character issue is with Asha/Yara. I know a lot of you like that character, but I just found it annoying. I just don’t care for that character.

    I didn’t care for some of the things Larry said, but he wouldn’t have had to say anything if people would quit trying to force him to change his views instead of letting the show do the work.

  132. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    greymouser,

    People tend to get pretty angry when they’re unfairly called sexists or racists. Especially over a piece of fiction.

  133. LordVarys
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    Stop being so offended by OtakuAssemble’s reviews — he is basing his hatred for Sansa over the fact that she’s a victim-character and hasn’t done anything to convince him that she’ll rise up against Joffrey.

    Can you dispute the fact she sold out her sister and got her OWN wolf killed? Can you dispute the fact she hasn’t done anything to show us she’s fighting back *yet*?

  134. Mike from Braavos
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: I think once Sansa moves past the victim stage that she is in right now

    Wait… are you saying she does move past the victim stage? I’ve read all five books and don’t remember that happening… unless you consider learning to manipulate Sweetrobin getting the upper hand. : )

  135. Maester Victor
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    I LOVE Larry’s videos. They are fantastic because he’s voicing his opinions. We all read or watch (or both!) the show and we all have our own opinions. I don’t agree with him but I love hearing what his view is. KEEP IT UP LARRY!!!!!! :D

  136. Doran's Gouty Toe
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk:

    I think it’s got mainly to do with the fact they offed two of his main characters. It’s hard to feel passionate about the show when your first love gets taken away (as well as his backup). So yeah I definitely don’t feel the same kind of enthusiasm from Larry. Just like Tywin (with his wife), the best part of Larry died with Ned sadly.

    I think you hit the nail right on the head there. Is it a feeling that’s widely shared by newbies I wonder? Larry did notice the pattern of “punishing” happy turnovers and killing hopes and likable characters — I think that has made him wary and more distant emotionally, like someone that tries to guess the trick behind the magic trick instead of letting himself be surprised. The condensation of plot with the 10 episodes limit accentuates this feeling of one-bad-thing-after-another even more…

    Still, he should try to be less self-conscious and worry less about how he’s perceived (that would be easier if people stopped sending him stupid letters), and stop beginning every review with ” First I want to address something”!….

  137. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Del:
    greymouser,

    People tend to get pretty angry when they’re unfairly called sexists or racists.Especially over a piece of fiction.

    As an example, it would be like if in response to some of the people here saying that they hate Larry’s reviews and that he’s an asshole, people started spamming “you’re just a racist.”

    It’s a very unfair accusation, and people tend to take that sort of thing very personally.

  138. Entropy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    I always enjoy Larry’s reviews. So honest and refreshing from it’s boldness. Be strong Larry!!

  139. Macha
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Doran’s Gouty Toe,

    As someone who watches Larry’s reviews on a regular basis, I’d say the reason he comes off a lot ‘colder’ towards the show this season is because he wanted to try out a more ‘professional’, serious approach, which – he said so himself – wasn’t really his thing, so he finally gave that up. I, for one, am glad he did, and I expect him to go back to his usual self as the season progresses.

    Now, it’s not my intention to add fuel to the fire, but I have to say this…
    Larry’s rant didn’t bother me one bit, because I don’t need constant affirmation of my beliefs.
    I’ve come to appreciate Sansa a lot as a character since ASoS. And while I may not agree with Larry on some points in regards to her character and her options, I can understand why he feels this way towards her. Instead of dismissing everything that contradicts their beliefs, some people should really make an effort of imagination and ask themselves why someone behaves or thinks the way they do.
    What some people are doing with Larry’s opinions is extrapolation at its very best. He specifically said he doesn’t glorify victims, not that he hates them or that all victims are to blame for their suffering. His feelings towards Sansa in particular are fueled by Sansa’s behaviour prior to her imprisonment, and how the hell can you blame him for that?

    Frankly, I find it quite baffling to see how offensive everything is to everyone nowadays. I’ve been active in two other fandoms previously, but not in the last 4 years or so and geeesh, suddenly I wake up and see sexism accusation everywhere.
    Of course, everybody’s free to speak their minds and it’s perfectly ok to be invested in a show or a character but I’m just thinking…maybe it’ll be easier for some people to enjoy a show/a fandom/ LIFE/ if they take a deep breath, chill, and try to remember they’re here to have a good time. At least, that’s what I hope. If not, please don’t be offended I took the liberty to assume that. ;)

    To quote Larry, I’m just saying.

    EDIT: Doran, my reply was just the first paragraph, the rest was addressed to everyone, and no one in particular. :)

  140. dizzy_34
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Boy that Axechucker dude is so offensive… he’s got to go! ;)

  141. Rose
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    I have to admit, his recaps are usually the highlight of my week, but I was really offended by Larry’s review this week.

    Yes, he warned for a “Sansa rant,” but he sure didn’t warn that he was going to go on a victim blaming spiel. I was genuinely uncomfortable and very negatively affected by the way he completely underplayed the strength it takes TO endure. I am a Sansa fan, it’s true, but it doesn’t bother me that he doesn’t like Sansa. I don’t like a lot of characters others like, Robb being the biggest, and I expect others to respect my opinion. That’s fine. But the accusations he leveled against her got extremely personal and real-life and I’m not sure this site should be endorsing this.

    You can say “blah blah opinions on personal characters” but honestly, his opinions WEREN’T just about personal characters. He seriously sat there and told us that he has no respect for victims unless they meet his standards of fighting back. He told us straight-faced that that is his opinion in real life. I was INCREDIBLY uncomfortable about this, not as a Sansa supporter, but as a human being. He’s entitled to any horrible opinion he has, but does he deserve a stage for it? It’s absolutely not acceptable to belittle and shame victims for not “fighting back” and saying they’d be better served sacrificing their LIVES?

    It’s not just about a fictional character. His rant got really personal and really real-life and I’m really not sure it should have been featured here :/

    The accusations about him being sexist have some merit — he clearly only respects both men and women with masculine qualities — but that’s a feminism rant for another time and I actually don’t think it’s an issue as it applies to this site at all. But that’s not what it’s about, nor is it about Larry Fans vs. Sansa Fans.

    And tbh … it’s true what everyone’s saying — Larry’s fire has gone out. The show that he wants GoT to be, one where Robb wins the North, Ned lives, conflicts are always settled by fights, and the sword is greater than the pen, that’s not the show that GoT is, and he’s just going to be more and more disillusioned by what’s coming. Whereas last year seeing how he reacted to things was literally the high point of my week, now he just seems so tepid. I was so excited to see how he reacted to Renly’s death and the shadowbaby, and he seemed more bored than anything else. I can’t imagine ANYTHING that’s going to happen in the remainder of the series that’s going to make him happy, other than the Purple Wedding, and eh, we can get that reaction from anywhere. The Starks will keep getting darker and darker, Dany isn’t coming home to Westeros any time soon, schemers always win and fighters always lose … This is a story about backroom deals and losing your personal honour to survive, and Larry isn’t interested in either one.

    I hate it because he was the best part of season one, but it’s the truth. Maybe we should just kill this one fast before it poisons everything slow :(

  142. Inka
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    LordVarys,

    Yes, I can.
    1. She did not get her wolf killed. That was all Cersei and Jeffrey. Even Robert for agreeing to punish the wolf that had nothing to do with the attack. Or Ned, for actually being the one who killed the wolf instead of, um, I don’t know, letting her go. Maybe not a smart move but he could have at least tried to talk to Robert the next day instead of just killing Lady as soon as he was ordered to do it. Or Arya, for attacking the prince! It doesn’t matter how big of a jerk Jeffrey is, he is still the future king and you can’t attack him without expecting any consequences. But she is just a kid, so we shouldn’t blame her. O wait, so is Sansa.
    2. When Sansa was given the note letting her know that someone wants to help her flee, she took the chance and followed up on it, even though it could have been a set up. I’d say that’s pretty brave. Before that, she didn’t have other chances to improve her situation but she still did things to help others, like Ser Dontos. Honestly, what more do you want?

  143. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    LordVarys,

    Yes actually I can dispute that by, firstly, stating that it is not a FACT that she sold out her sister. She decided to remain neutral in that situation, which many people seem to gloss over, by saying that SHE DIDN’T REMEMBER. She did not side with Arya and SHE DID NOT SIDE WITH JOFFREY EITHER.

    Again, she chose to remain NEUTRAL by saying she didn’t remember.

    Getting her own killed? Because Sansa would’ve definitely wanted that to happen. Because Sansa was the one who passed the sentence. Because she didn’t YELL AT THE KING AND QUEEN AND PRINCE about Lady not having done anything, which was brave on it’s own accord!
    How about you stop skimming Sansa’s chapters and pay closer attention.

  144. Mimsy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    Wow.. Larry is gonna get a lot of fan mail this week. Yikes!

    My only regret in watching that review is that Larry was talking about “Sansa” and not the “peach.” That’s how I feel about the peach at this point. lol

    Other than the Fbomb rants and opinion on victimization.. he pretty much summed up the series when he said as soon as he starts to feel good about someone the rug is yanked out from underneath.

  145. Ash
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    This alert guy is just a total pleb! How long did his rant on Sansa go on for? He expected the shadow to cause a plague and turn fields to ash? If you could wipe out armies like that then the series would be over now and stannis will be on the iron throne. A love triangle with dany/jorah/daxos!!!! This is not a soap opera! And does he not realise tyrion will want the wildfire, not to claim the throne but would you really want the most flammable liquid in the whole of westeros in the hands of a 15yr old sadist freak! He would end up burning kings landing to the ground like the mad king tried to. WiC, why do you even bother with his reviews? Any fan can sit in front of a webcam in the kitchen and talk crap!

  146. Ash
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    This larry guy I meant to say! IPhone predictive txt let me down!

  147. scott glennon
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Why is everyone talking about this guy? I didn’t know who he was until there was all this talk about him. So he is a Sansa hater. What is that? New? As readers, we know he is on a journey and having a knee jerk reaction to the character. I remember not liking Sansa in the beginning as well. However, I followed the journey and now Sansa is one of my favorites. I also remember hating Jaime in the beginning, but by “Feast” he became one of the POV’s I read with the greatest interest. Not that I necessarily liked him, but his internal struggles fascinated me. I think it is important to remember that moral ambiguity is a running theme in all the books, and I for one am glad they are continuing that with the show. Larry, stay on the journey-it’s worth it. Also, put notes on cards, the rambling is hard to watch.
    The show itself was awesome, front to back!
    Can’t wait till next week!

  148. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    Really don’t think WiC should axe a link to someone’s video review just because you don’t agree with it. A lot of people enjoy it, and nobody is being forced to click on it.

  149. Ash
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    Agree with all that you just said, don’t think ‘purple wedding’ will happen till season three though. By then I hope WiC cut out larrys reviews. Like you said, larry wants a different type of story, knights of the round table type.

    Oh, why do you not like robb?

  150. Ash
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    scott glennon,

    Just have a problem with him droning on about it for ages before he gets on with his review.

  151. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Del,

    Doesn’t look like too many people are enjoying right now.

  152. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Ash:

    By then I hope WiC cut out larrys reviews.

    This site has always been really good about not being the thought police. I wouldn’t want them to change that aspect of this place.

  153. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    What’s funny is that if Sansa “fought back” as he’s suggesting she should (disclaimer: I haven’t seen his latest review and have no intention of doing so, just going by commentary), she’d be forgotten and a miserable failure over the long term. By doing exactly what she does, playing along with her captors and escaping when she gets the chance, plus all the subterfuge that follows, she stands a good chance of making it through successfully and possibly even reviving the fortunes of her family. So, to summarize, Larry’s notions of how she should respond to her situation are, to use his terminology, all fucked up.

  154. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    That’s strange. I see just as many people who are saying they enjoy Larry as those saying they don’t. The simple solution is to not click, not to remove opinions you don’t agree with. WiC.net has always been good about keeping in dissenting opinions. Let’s not change that.

    Steven Swanson,

    Larry doesn’t have the luxury of knowing what happens in future books. He only sees what the show has given us, which so far, has been a sympathetic but largely unlikable character.

  155. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    This might be a good time to remind everyone that Sansa is one of the most hated characters in the books. She has fans, but she also has haters… LOTS of them. I get the feeling that poor Larry thinks all the book readers love Sansa.

    I don’t hate her, but she is probably my least favourite character.

    Anyways, this thread is HILARIOUS. Is it just me, or are people here at WiC slowly but surely going insane this season? We always had gates, but lately it’s more like hysterical offended outrage drama for the sake of drama.

  156. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Del: Larry doesn’t have the luxury of knowing what happens in future books. He only sees what the show has given us so far, which so far, has been a sympathetic but largely unlikable character.

    Oh, I know, but just goes to show you how it might be wise to withhold one’s opinion about a character until you see how a situation actually plays out over the long haul. Especially when that character happens to be an adolescent girl betrothed to a sadist with no apparent way out. Swear to god, some people’s lack of ability to empathize with characters is mind-blowing, especially when the people in question would likely be sobbing in a heap if put in a similar situation.

  157. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    I agree, though to be fair, I felt sorry for but absolutely hated Sansa in the book up until Book 3.

  158. Mike from Braavos
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Swear to god, some people’s lack of ability to empathize with characters is mind-blowing, especially when the people in question would likely be sobbing in a heap if put in a similar situation.

    You can empathize with someone w/out liking them. If [[insert political blow-hard on the opposite side of your particular political spectrum here]] got some sort of terminal cancer, I would certainly empathize with him, and feel bad about his situation, and the impact it would have on his family & friends… but I wouldn’t stop hating the person.

    It’s like Stannis always says “the good does not wash away the bad, nor the bad the good.” : )

    I can’t have a complete dislike for Sansa, and STILL feel sorry for her.

  159. James
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Can we stop promoting idiots like Larry Williams? I am sick and tired of this YouTube generation who seem to think that everyone wants to hear what they think about things.. honestly.

    I love this show (as I have the books for many many years), but some of the new fans who have latched onto it make me want to wretch.

  160. GrandmaFunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Yes actually I can dispute that by, firstly, stating that it is not a FACT that she sold out her sister. She decided to remain neutral in that situation, which many people seem to gloss over, by saying that SHE DIDN’T REMEMBER. She did not side with Arya and SHE DID NOT SIDE WITH JOFFREY EITHER.

    Again, she chose to remain NEUTRAL by saying she didn’t remember.

    Except that that is not neutral at all.

    If you witness a murder and and are asked to testify in the prosecution of an innocent man…and you chose to lie by not stating what you know is the truth, you are both condemning an innocent man, and letting a guilty one walk free.

    If your choices directly favour one person and adversely affect another, that’s not neutral.

    If Sansa truly didn’t know/remember, then yes, her position would’ve been neutral..but here she has a choice to tell the truth or to lie, and she chooses to lie. Just because her lie is not an overt fabrication about the events does not make her actions neutral in the least.

  161. Rose
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Ash:
    Rose,

    Oh, why do you not like robb?

    Haha, because he commits the only unforgiveable sin a character can in my eyes: being straight up fucking boring. Not the book version of Robb, I sort of like/am neutrel on book Robb. But while Richard Madden is a fantastic actor, I cringe at the sight of his blandly handsome face. Robb’s only interesting facets in the books were being REALLY young and REALLY naive. With that all stripped away, he’s just a bland hero-character in a story I go to specifically to get away from bland her0-characters.

    I totally understand literally everyone disagrees with me and that doesn’t bother me :)

  162. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Arthur: Seems like he is this sites Ros.

    Ha! Arthur, you’re a genius. What we need is someone (preferably female) doing topless GoT reviews!

  163. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    It’s funny you mention this. My non-book-reader friend thinks Robb is the worst character in the show. Completely boring and uninteresting. He says that if Robb dies, he won’t care whatsoever. To me, that’s a bad sign… like, maybe the show has failed at making Robb sympathetic or interesting? Or failed at making new viewers love the Starks? How can anyone not be cheering for the Young Wolf? Hard to say, since I’m book-biased.

  164. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    James,

    Some of us want to see how he reacts. We can’t exactly forget everything we’ve read, and the easiest way to get that “new viewer emotional experience” is by watching his reviews. Reading someone’s review after they’ve had time to sit down, go back and reread, and rewrite their thoughts doesn’t really give that same experience. I enjoy reading GoT reviews, and go through a few of them every time this post comes up on Monday, but Larry’s videos gives us something different.

    The simple solution is to not open his videos. Not to tell people to stop liking things that you don’t like.

  165. Rose
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Rose,

    It’s funny you mention this. My non-book-reader friend thinks Robb is the worst character in the show. Completely boring and uninteresting. He says that if Robb dies, he won’t care whatsoever. To me, that’s a bad sign… like, maybe the show has failed at making Robb sympathetic or interesting? Hard to say, since I’m book-biased.

    Hey, he’s better off than me! I’m personally rubbing my hands and cackling with glee in excitement for the Red Wedding. The show has done something worse than make me fail to sympathize with Robb — it’s made me cheer for Walder Frey! (To be specific, I’m not excited to see Robb die, that’s petty and the RW is still going to be brutal just because Catelyn has, against all expectations, become my favourite HBO-verse character. I’m just so, so looking forward to not having to SEE him anymore. I hope to god his horrible love interest goes off screen when he does :(

    That said, I really don’t think HBO has failed at making Robb sympathetic. I think he’s been very positively received BECAUSE he’s so blandly palatable. There’s nothing unlikeable about him except for the fact that there’s nothing unlikeable about him, and you have to be a crazy person like me to care about THAT this much :p I think HBO is doing mostly for the “average” viewer.

  166. HMZ
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Sure the kid’s reviews have been less substantial for season 2, but let’s face it, his season 1 reviews established him as a barometer of how the new viewer nerd community is taking to the series. He rakes in views and, while perhaps being an animated, prone-to-fury reviewer; he is, until he flips his shit completely or seizures on cam, a valuable source for discussion and speculation topics.

    Discussion and speculation being a core tenet of this website, I can’t see any reason why he should not be included. Especially if the only argument against him is that some readers were offended by his expressed opinions.

    Get out your pitchforks and torches, I’ll be here all week.

  167. Shinyteapot
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    I need a baby dragon shaped kitchen blowtorch.

  168. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    On the subject of Robb being not liked or bland, you have to blame HBO for this.

    Robb is one of those guys that is hyped for his military accomplishments in both the books and the show. You hear and see the aftermaths of what he accomplishes, but you never actually see him while he is accomplishing it.
    People believe certain characters are bad ass because they have seen them kick some ass on the show, or read about it in the books.
    Sadly for the Young Wolf, nobody has seen him actually kick ass in the battlefield, which has done him a great disservice.
    If people actually got to see Rob in action on the battlefield, I can assure you he would have a bigger following/liking.

  169. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    If you can accept the concept that this show is about being realistic then you shouldn’t hate Sansa at all. In the source material she’s what like 12?14? Even though people of the “middle age era” tended to be more mature at such young age (even married), or that female have been widely acknowledge to mature quicker, she’s still a kid. The character is very believable. If anything, Arya is the unrealistic tomboy archtype. For every 500 Sansa’s in the world there would be 1 Arya.

    I’m not a Sansa fan but I can appreciate the slow development of this Stark. If Robb is learning leading and warfare from being directly involved in battle, she’s learning about court double speak and learning to put on a facade for everyone to see. It may not be terrible exciting as Arya learning to sword fight with Syrio but she’s learning the ‘big game” in her own right.

    That said, for the pure Sansa lovers out there, let’s be clear on somethings. First as Larry put it, you put your family first in front of strangers (even when they are wrong which she wasn’t in this case) This is even more true for the Starks. For her to not support Arya is understandable but still terrible (which is when Larry prob got on the Sansa hate train). Sansa understands about being a proper lady and manners above all. She very well couldn’t tell everyone that the crown prince is a snivelling little lying snot (not if she planned to marry him). On the other hand, she knew Arya wasn’t capable of that kind of deceit so she chose the cowardly way out of fake amnesia.

  170. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    HMZ,
    “Discussion and speculation being a core tenet of this website, I can’t see any reason why he should not be included. Especially if the only argument against him is that some readers were offended by his expressed opinions.”

    Except when people make inappropriate comments here (say homophobic for instance) the comments are deleted and the poster is banned if they continue. Just sayin’…..

  171. charles
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    i have no problem with larry doing his rant. Even though i disagree with 95% of everything he said, he can have all the rants he wants, it’s his channel. But for gods sake do a separate video. We got there to watch a review of an episode, not 10 minutes of bumbling nonesense.

  172. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood, your comment was deleted because you called someone an ‘asshole’ and you clearly aren’t banned, so please stop making it out like we are unfairly censoring you.

  173. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    In actuality I was not commenting on MY comments at all. Just that you try to keep this website free of offensive posts and I commend you on that. Larry’s videos can be offensive and IMO do NOT support the tenets of this website.

    ETA: This is your site and I wouldn’t fault you at all for doing what you wish with it. (“It’s good to be king”) But I hope you see another person’s point of view when it comes to linking to a site that IMO dos not support your sites rules of decorum.

  174. Blood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    No matter how offensive any particular review or reviewer is I’d still like it linked here (with warnings if necessary) just so that the site remains the only bookmark you need to see (almost) everything that’s being written or youtubed about the show. Being linked shouldn’t be considered an endorsement.

  175. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    I respectfully disagree, here. It is possible to not like a child’s personality, but there’s always the hope that they can change and be raised well. Being realistic does not have to mean likeable. The idea that simply “being a kid” means that they are completely free from dislike is not an idea I agree with.

    charles,

    On that much, I agree. It would have been much better served as its own video than an addition to the normal episode review.

    Weirwood,

    I believe this site has linked the New York Times on several occasions, where they implied some heavily negative things about female fantasy fans. Links have generally been “at your own risk”, while behavior that actually takes place on this site is actually moderated.

  176. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    First off, let me say that I am not a fan or a hater of Sansa.

    I simply want to add an observation to the whole Sansa betrayed her younger sister battle cry that many people are throwing around.
    I find it very believeable that Sansa would not side with her sister against Joff, and don’t actually see anything wrong with it.
    At that point in the book/show, Sansa was blindly in love with Joff. We have all taken sides against our family when love is involved, or know someone who has taken sides against their family when love was involved. I personally know of friends or family members who have cut off all ties simply because someone’s love interest was accused or insulted.
    So basically, Sansa has reminded some people of some pretty bad moments in their lives or lives of people they know, and she is disliked for it. I’m afraid that no amount of future developements, will change the strong dislike some people have for Sansa.

  177. fuelpagan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Mike from Braavos: Wait… are you saying she does move past the victim stage? I’ve read all five books and don’t remember that happening… unless you consider learning to manipulate Sweetrobin getting the upper hand. : )

    Well I’m describing “the victim stage” to mean the point when she is simply struggling to survive with no idea how to get free. Once you see her interacting with Dontos, you can’t help but hope for her to get out, even though she is annoying. (Just as Larry was happy to see Tyrion save her from Joffrey’s torment.) And then you start to see she is more than just a snobby noble girl, she actually has a big heart. You start wondering what might happen next with her, because she no longer is simply sitting there just trying to survive with no means to get away.

    I think Larry is grasping at straws to come up with reasons why he doesn’t like her. I think it’s simply that she was a snob who cared more about marrying Joffrey than about her family. And now she is a victim trapped and she appears to be stuck that way for a good while. It just doesn’t appeal to him without seeing a chance for moving her story forward. I guess Larry doesn’t remember last season when Sansa almost did kill Joffrey and was interupted by Sandor. I find if funny how he comes up with the suggestion to sacrifice herself to kill Joffrey and everyone cries how awful that suggestion is, when she almost did just that. She would have probably done it at the time if Sandor hadn’t stopped her.

    Once she can talk to someone she thinks is really helping her, the better qualities of her character can be displayed. She is no longer just a victim, she has hope for a future.

    Some people pick up on these traits and end up liking the character, or at least enjoying her story. Others still find her annoying and just don’t care.

  178. bluerhino
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Seriously, is this whole 100 plus count thread about a reviewer. Un real

  179. chavalah
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Rose: You can say “blah blah opinions on personal characters” but honestly, his opinions WEREN’T just about personal characters. He seriously sat there and told us that he has no respect for victims unless they meet his standards of fighting back. He told us straight-faced that that is his opinion in real life. I was INCREDIBLY uncomfortable about this, not as a Sansa supporter, but as a human being.

    Thank you for this…main reason I encouraged a boycott of this particular recap elsewhere, actually. This is a far bigger deal than disliking a character, and he’s been hinting at his general opinion for awhile. I just wish there’d be some recognition in fandom the negative implications of shaming assault victims. I don’t buy that it’s “just fiction.” After all, even through the tv show we know far more about Sansa than we do about most real life victims on the news. If we can’t show humanity to fleshed out characters in dire situations, then why should we to a few words in a newspaper article?

  180. Jaime Lannister
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Larry is a badass, even if his whole “routine” is probably more of an act than he’d ever let on.

    Great reviewer regardless. The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and whining moaners keep on complaining.

  181. Tywin87
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink
  182. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: Some people pick up on these traits and end up liking the character, or at least enjoying her story. Others still find her annoying and just don’t care.

    And I wonder how many hate her just because she reminds them of every girl who wouldn’t give them the time of day back in jr. high.

  183. LockeLamora
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    I can´t belive that people srsly go that far to send a person who is reviewing a show ,messages and e-mails only because he dislikes a certain character, which truth be told many book readers don´t like either.

  184. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Your crusade to get WiC to stop posting links to Larry’s reviews, based on ONE rant that (IMO) wasn’t even offensive, is really getting a bit ridiculous. Many people enjoy Larry’s reviews, and that’s why WiC links to them. If you don’t like Larry’s reviews, don’t click on the link! No one is forcing you to watch it, or even condoning it. No outside reviewers opinions reflect on WiC in any way. WiC posts the links, and you (as an adult) as expected to be able to make your own adult choices about what you do or do not want to watch. I think you need to give up and move on…

  185. sunspear
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Anybody else notice that a few of the reviewers seem to think Catelyn and Renly actually came to a deal? They seemed to miss the detail that Robb would have to agree to pledge fealty to Renly, something he wouldn’t do.

  186. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    But he’s not shaming assault victims. He’s talking about a fictional character he does not agree with, and whose story he does not like. You’re making this out to be bigger than it actually is, which was what caused this issue in the first place: people e-mailing him/messaging him as sexist for not liking Sansa’s character.

    A lot of people here are excited for the Blackwater fight, but I’m not going to start claiming that must be because they love people getting brutally killed in real-life wars.

  187. Dan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Ignoring the whole dust-up over that dude’s video reviews, which I stopped watching early on in Season 1 because they annoyed me — I think that I’m going to have to stop reading westeros.org’s recap/analyses because they are starting to annoy me, too — but for very different reasons. Every scene that comes from the books is praised to the heavens while (almost) every scene that is new or changed from the books is criticized soundly. I get that they view themselves as the ‘protectors of the realm,’ but this bias is pretty huge. I, too, was underwhelmed by Renly’s death scene, but it didn’t ruin the rest of the episode for me. The TV show represents an almost impossible task of adaptation; things are going to change. Not every change is bad just because a scene or a line-reading didn’t spring from GRRM’s brow. This is only going to get worse.

  188. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    I feel a bit hurt by Larry’s Sansa rant, mainly because in the past I felt like messaging him in response to his opinion on Sansa to dispute a few points but refrained from doing so because of not wanting to bother him… so I kinda felt like I was being slammed, even though I know I wasn’t.

    Less obscenity would have been better, but he did acknowledge that himself after a while. Also, to be fair, part of the appeal of his reviews is their off-the-cuff character, and the fact that he didn’t edit out the swearing is part of that I guess.

    Anyway, obviously he is entitled to like or dislike any character he prefers. He can hate Sansa as long as he likes. Even so, I feel that he’s wrong about her on a number of counts. 1) She had one chance to kill Joffrey and was about to take it when Sandor intervened. We haven’t seen a single chance that she’s had since then. He has armoured bodyguards and she is unarmored, unarmed, and without any martial training. 2) Admiring Sansa is not exalting or fetishizing victimhood. One does not admire her for being a victim; one sympathises with her for it. If one admires her, it is for what she manages to do *in spite* of how she is mistreated, such as saving Dontos or carefully managing her steps so that she doesn’t give her captors any more excuses to hurt her than the ones they think up on their own initiative.

    There’s more I’d like to say, but I’ll leave it there for now.

  189. Rose
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Del:

    Ignoring the whole dust-up over that dude’s video reviews, which I stopped watching early on in Season 1 because they annoyed me — I think that I’m going to have to stop reading westeros.org’s recap/analyses because they are starting to annoy me, too — but for very different reasons. Every scene that comes from the books is praised to the heavens while (almost) every scene that is new or changed from the books is criticized soundly. I get that they view themselves as the ‘protectors of the realm,’ but this bias is pretty huge. I, too, was underwhelmed by Renly’s death scene, but it didn’t ruin the rest of the episode for me. The TV show represents an almost impossible task of adaptation; things are going to change. Not every change is bad just because a scene or a line-reading didn’t spring from GRRM’s brow. This is only going to get worse.

    Except that he actually said: I DO NOT LIKE VICTIMS. I THINK THAT VICTIMS ARE WEAK. THERE IS NOTHING ADMIRABLE ABOUT ENDURING HARDSHIP.

    If he said “It frustrates me how Sansa doesn’t, so far, seem to be doing anything to improve her situation,” that’s one thing. Even if he says it in Larry-speak. It’s fine. I disagree with him, because I think she does everything she can in a way that he doesn’t personally like, but I get that opinions differ. He SPECIFICALLY went on a victim-blaming rant and I don’t think that’s something this site should be endorsing.

    EDIT: ugh, quoted wrong post. Meant for the person who said that he’s not victm blaming because he’s talking about a fictional character.

  190. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    I am truly simply stating an opinion. An unpopular opinion that I have felt the need to explain further. Since so many here believe that this site should link to any and all reviews and information. Which we all know is BS.

    BTW I stopped watching Larry’s rants after the fake outrage last year and when he came here to “defend” himself over it. And I have kept my opinion of larry to myself until today when I agreed with other posters here. Larry, like most of fans, seem to believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion about Larry- as long as it is favorable and only contains praise.

    So I am once again…. moving on.

  191. Skipjack
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    I don’t agree with Andy Greenwald at Grantland that the show hasn’t stretched out and milked some chemistry and fan favorite characters. Just look at how much time they devote to Tyrion and Bronn together. It’s a welcome change from the books and yet while Renly is a fun character he doesn’t also have a foil to play off except in the oh so serious conversations with Cat or Stannis. There wasn’t a real way to keep him around, since being a king he’s one of the major players and every scene he’s in that doesn’t move the plot forward is taking away from someone else’s time. Those few grace notes and comic relief seem to go to Tyrion and Bronn. We all wish there were more than ten episodes.

    Likewise I think the lack of Jaqen’s two companions in the cage will be used to give his relationship with Arya a bit more face time. The real problem I think with having so much story isn’t that it’s over-determined but has so many characters with conflicting goals. It is inevitable that some character arcs will be interrupted abruptly or else have to scramble in reaction to events. You can probably tell I don’t rate that as a problem at all, except that we only have ten episodes per season.

  192. Macha
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    re: westeros.org’s recap

    I actually gave it a try for a few paragraphs, until they’ve really outdone themselves and managed to find some kind of fault even in Qarth’s ‘garden party’ scene. Of all the ways to portray Qarth’s exotic civilization, a garden party?! Oh the horror.

    But hey, westeros.org’s loyal readers might feel the same way about this site, so to each his own.

  193. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Del:

    Hmm, I don’t think I said her character was likable or that I found her likable. I said the character was more believable. She thinks and acts like most girls in puberty would (at least from a male perspective here), that doesn’t mean I particularly enjoy her character. Let’s put it this way, the greatest thing I love about this show is that they more or less behave like a real person would (instead of a character archtype). If Sansa were a scheming master like Varys from day one then part of the realism would be hurt by it. The fantastical elements are slowly creeping back in the show but for the most part the realistic character development of the show remains true.

  194. From Chaos
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Lets all just thank the gods that Larry did not say anything negative about the Reeds or Tullys!!!!

  195. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    It’s fine to have an opinion, but skimming this thread it seemed like you were posting over and over, again and again, over something that will never happen (i.e. asking WiC to stop linking to Larry’s reviews). Your suggestion that WiC stop linking to Larry’s reviews goes beyond an opinion, and enters the realm of an unreasonable request. The fact that you were offended by Larry’s review is NOT a good reason for WiC to stop providing the link.

    Feel free to complain about Larry all you want, but I think you should give up on the crusade to have Larry’s links removed.

    Incidentally, Larry is great about always recommending this site as the best place to post, comment, and discuss the show.

  196. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    re: Westeros.org

    Avid reader fans have long been criticized for bemoaning the fact that our precious series has been vandalized. It’s true a lot of those criticism border on the superficial but there are SIGNIFICANT deviations from the book (and I’m not even talking about character merge/cuts due to budget restraints) that do warrant a raised eyebrow. Especially if some of these changes have no bearing on extra cost/screen time. D&D have maintained they are the most hardcore fan of the series out there. Though the essence and majority of the series has more or less been faithfully adapted (and much better than any of its other genre adaptations). It still baffles some readers when they completely reinvent an existing character. Even GRRM who has been incredible supportive has commented they completely made up new characters out of Shae and Littlefinger.. When even the man himself speaks out about it, what else would die hard fans from westeros might feel?

    I’m sure given time, D&D might illuminate us to their decision process (I’m not blaming them btw, since I realize what a monumental workload it must be adaptating this series) but until then we should give them the benefit of doubt (while whining loudly on the forums).

  197. The Instrumentalist
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Hmm… I know that the topic has been talked to death but I just wanted to point out a little analogy for Larry’s review. Someone related him to Ned, and that’s exactly what I picture when I hear all of his reviews, especially controversial ones like this one.

    I picture Ned riding into the throne room of the red keep and finding Jaime sitting on the throne with his bloody sword. Ned judged Jaime purely on his actions in that moment, and for the rest of his life until he died, never knowing that Jaime actually saved King’s Landing from wildfire. Larry judges Sansa for her actions in this very moment, because he doesn’t know the backstory – or the furture – and that’s the kind of man he is. He has his own mentality of what honour/courage is, and Sansa does not life up to that image. That is how I see it.

    Phew… never thought I’d attribute Sansa to Jaime Lannister :P

  198. ThePinkDragon
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    I don’t see why we’re having a discussion about some random person’s opinion.

    Larry just seems to be a guy. Why does it matter if he says something offensive or not?

    (This is, for the record, coming from someone who’s been a real life Sansa.)

  199. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    I was mostly responding to this:

    Drfunk:
    If you can accept the concept that this show is about being realistic then you shouldn’t hate Sansa at all. In the source material she’s what like 12?14?

    Given your follow up post, though, I can see what you were actually trying to say.

    Rose,

    And you’re reading more into it than he actually says. He’s not shaming assault victims. He comes from a background (or at least he believes as such) where persevering is simply expected of you. He made no claims that Sansa deserved what she got. He’s even happy when she is rescued from Joffrey’s tormenting and beating her in the last episode. At no point in his rant did he say it’s the victims fault that they are in the situation that they’re in. He’s saying they need to do something to fix that. He also straight out says a victim doesn’t become a likeable character solely for being a victim.

    Do I agree with his entire rant? No, not at all. I’m saying that you’re making this out to be way more than it actually is.

  200. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Again. I was further explaining that the “every reviewer has an equal right to be linked here” excuse was BS. That is simply not true.

    Winter can, will and SHOULD do whatever he wants with his site. That is his right. And I am free to choose whether or not to read and post here. But I do enjoy this site and most of it’s posters. I have absolutely no influence on what Winter does, but I was further explaining my reasoning for agreeing with others who find Larry to be less than a stellar example of the fandom.

    Sorry if I have reached my posting per topic maximum. But I knew full well that people would be offended by my supporting other posters right to be offended. ;) But that is the nature of the internet.

    And once again, moving on……

  201. JohnnyBoy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    As a Sansa fan and a fan of Larry’s work, whenever I hear him disagree with me about Sansa, I cringe a bit and move on and I enjoy the rest of the review. Now I haven’t seen the video but if he insults the ACTRESS than that’s a different story since Sophie is a real person who doesn’t deserve crap from people for her character. If the argument is simply based on Sansa then it is the people who sent the hate mail’s fault for being aggressive, not Larry. I’m pretty sure I’ll comment again after the review to give any other ideas.

  202. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    The thing is, though, not everyone agrees that he’s saying something as wildly offensive as some of you are claiming. Bit too harsh? Probably. Putting a rant into something that probably shouldn’t have had it in the first place? Most definitely, IMHO. Shaming real life victims or claiming that victims deserve everything they get? No. Absolutely not.

    JohnnyBoy,

    He never said anything about the actress. He talked at great length (too long, for someone who wasn’t even in the episode) about the character of Sansa, and the people who called him sexist for not liking the character. He was very obviously mad that people would unfairly claim such, just as anyone would get mad if someone claimed they were racist for not liking his reviews.

    It really demeans real instances of sexism when it’s thrown around so lightly.

  203. T-Good
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Worst part about Larry’s review this week? He forgot to talk about all the characters!! Didn’t even get to mention Bran or Theon. Really wanted to hear what he had to say about both of them. I think the hate mail and “sansa-rant” threw off his whole review. That was the most disappointing part about the whole thing IMO (his review wasn’t as strong because he was distracted the whole time).

  204. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Del,

    Some of us are being derided for deriding Larry for deriding his detractors……. I do love a vicious cycle….. (and really trying to move on…..)

    LOL ;)

  205. LG
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Re: Westeros.org:

    Elio and Linda make it very clear upfront that they are book purists and that’s the lens through which they view the show. That’s the value that it has for them – that it’s a show based on these books. Not sure why anyone would complain about being served what’s on the menu, so to speak, when it comes to their reviews. There are a dozens of other recappers that are more show-oriented if that’s your taste.

    Do they nitpick? You betcha, yah! But I also see them make insightful points about aspects of the adaptation, both tiny and large, that *nobody* else brings up. I’m glad there’s a book purist viewpoint out there amongst all the others, just for counterbalance.

  206. JohnnyBoy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Yea so after watching the review, I am not angry at Larry at all. He brings up some valid points, the biggie being he doesnt have the same perspective that I do, as a bookreader. And with his perspective on her storyline, she sounds like an asshole. Its just I look at the character a different way, which is fine. So stop the hate, and get pumped for Blackwater….duh.

  207. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Ash: This is not a soap opera!

    I’ll probably get flamed for saying this but I think the series is a (high budget) soap…if you read the wikipedia entry on “soap opera” ASOIAF fits it almost perfectly.

    ravens20: I’m not a fan of Larry’s reviews simply because he doesn’t seem to care much for the politics and the subleties of the game (like his rant about the Varys/Litlefinger scene being boring last year). While he claims to not want stereotypical characters, he sure seems to complain when characters aren’t swinging swords or acting courageously. But it isn’t even that he doesn’t like certain characters, which is fine, but that he doesn’t seem to appreciate their roles in the themes of the show. Victims and conspirators are critical to show the nature of power and show how many ways there are to survive in a tough world.

    This! I wonder if some audience members are missing the subtle game that Sansa’s been playing with Joffrey throughout this season. Which is the game that victims play to stay alive. Irregardless I am still going to watch Larry’s reviews because I’m addicted to non-book reader’s impressions of the show. Maybe I’m living vicariously through them.

    My non-book friend who normally watches VERY closely was confused why Stannis said that he could have hung Renly’s bannermen. I had to explain what a “bannermen” was so I think he might be fuzzy on the feudal social structure. He loved Arya’s double-identity and the irony of the situation. He is on edge waiting to see if she kills Tywin or if Tywin finds her out first!

  208. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Del:
    He was very obviously mad that people would unfairly claim such, just as anyone would get mad if someone claimed they were racist for not liking his reviews

    Except that if Larry called someone racist for not liking his reviews and the person in question defended themselves by saying that they’d been brought up to value a different model of black person, I would start to think that the person really was racist. To me, that’s just the same kind of situation as Larry saying that he’s not sexist but rather has been brought up to value a particular kind of female strength rather than any other kind. But if there’s some flaw with this metaphor that I’m not seeing, please, by all means, point it out.

    (For the record, even posting this comparison makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.)

  209. Turin
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Maxwell James,

    Yeah, I’ll try to not take offense to being told to “fuck off.” Wow, that guy has so much ~respect for his viewers.

    He only told people who send him hate mail over his opinion to F-off. So if you feel that was directed to you, maybe stop sending him hate mail?

  210. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney,

    It’s an equally ridiculous claim. What that assumes is that women are only capable of doing nothing but “enduring” when faced with something terrible, and that “the ability to endure” is an entirely womanly quality. That women are not as capable, which is frankly a bit more insulting than saying that a character does not become more likeable solely because they’re a victim.

    Please don’t misinterpret what I’m saying here. I’m not saying that’s exactly what you, personally, are writing here. I’m not even saying that Sansa is in a position to actually do anything immediately that will improve her situation (as I said earlier, I disagree with a lot of what Larry says). I’m saying it’s BS to yell “sexism” over not liking a fictional character, and assuming that it’s entirely due to a character’s gender.

  211. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Del:
    It’s an equally ridiculous claim.What that assumes is that women are only capable of doing nothing but “enduring” when faced with something terrible, and that “the ability to endure” is an entirely womanly quality.That women are not as capable, which is frankly a bit more insulting than saying that a character does not become more likeable solely because they’re a victim.

    I’m not aware that *anyone* is claiming that women are only capable of doing nothing but “enduring” when faced with something terrible. I think, however, that the idea that the ability to endure hardship with dignity is not something that can be seen as positive for a woman… or that it’s somehow less worthy of praise than the kickass warrior-woman archetype… is worth questioning.

  212. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    On Westeros…

    DrfunkWhen even the man himself speaks out about it, what else would die hard fans from westeros might feel?

    I didn’t get a sense that Martin’s opinion on the different interpretations of Shae and Littlefinger was an actual complaint, just an observation. But who knows what’s going on in his head. We’ll never know because it would be a faux pas to publicly critique the show on which you serve as a producer. Also, not to worry the point, but some people might take offense to the idea that Elio and Linda are die hard fans who represent the “book purists,” and who are also “in sync” with Martin’s opinions on the show (I’m not saying you said this Drfunk, I just get this feeling from some circles). I think the biggest thing that grates on me about their reviews is the assumption that they know the capital T Truth of what “being true to the books should mean.” Moreover, in their review they will not (or cannot?) criticize the source material. Whether its a fear of ruining their relationship with GRRM or blind love to every single bloated word of the books, that perspective is just not my cup of tea.

  213. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    At this point in the story, what makes Sansa more helpless (i.e. “enduring”) than Jaime? He’s arguably the best sword in Westeros, she’s a young girl, and they’re both in custody. Except he’s in chains and she’s dining with the Queen. Characterize Sansa how you like. I characterize it as brilliant writing.

  214. Oi!
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    He dislikes her for taking her frustrations out on others (septa, Shae…) and her eagerness to do anything to please Joff (season 1). Basically the two things most book reader Sansa haters hate her for.
    He doesn’t hate her for being a victim, he just says he wont change his opinion of her because she is. He has a point just look at Reek in ADWD alot of readers that hated him for his betrayal now since his a victim sympathize with him even root for him.

  215. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney: I’m not aware that *anyone* is claiming that women are only capable of doing nothing but “enduring” when faced with something terrible.I think, however, that the idea that the ability to endure hardship with dignity is not something that can be seen as positive for a woman… or that it’s somehow less worthy of praise than the kickass warrior-woman archetype… is worth questioning.

    That is still assuming that the character isn’t liked because it’s a woman who’s enduring hardship with dignity. That’s never said, that’s just what you’re assuming. It hints at people having the thought that it’s more praiseworthy just because a woman is doing it. That’s where the implication is made that a woman is not capable of more, which is not at all true.

  216. Vikestad
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    This is not about Sansa. It is about his reviews. This season his reviews have been far below par, and I see people writing that a lot of people still like his reviews, yet basing on these comments I can’t agree. Let people who still like them watch them, but I think it is wrong giving him a soapbox wasting people 25 + minutes every sunday night or monday morning with terrible reviews frankly.

  217. bluemeanies
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    @Rose

    Totally agree and I was picking up that victim blaming attitude about Sansa in a previous review but it was a quick did he say what I thought I just said thing. This review confirmed it, the idea that the only path to even respectability as a victim is to purposefully get herself killed, and this is coming directly from his real life views of real life situations. That was the exact point that I knew I would never watch another Larry Williams review and I would recommend he be removed from the blogroll. I know it won’t happen now, but hopefully Winter-is-coming tracks click throughs and n0tices that the ones to Williams have dramatically dropped after this and drop him as an amatuer reviewer. There are thousands of amatuer reviewers, he was elevated because he was entertaining in the first series, he shouldn’t have a permanent claim to a spot on the list just because of that if he is veering into this territory.

  218. Herr Fick
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Some people in the SOIAF community erroneously conflate their feelings about and opinions of a character’s personality with the merit of that personality’s writing.

    Sansa Stark is one of Martin’s best characters, as is her mother. Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, and Theon are very well-crafted, too, as are some of his secondary characters (although, because they provide no POV, we never get to look inside their heads). Daenerys’ characterisation is contentious, as far as I can tell from most discussions. The same holds in Cersei’s case (especially after Maggy the Frog in AFFC, which some see as a cheap retcon).

    Now, for some readers and viewers it seems to be important how they feel about a character’s decisions in the story, whether they find them “good” or “bad”, likeable or hateful. Although I, personally, find this to be irrelevant, it is, of course, their prerogative to like and dislike whomever they want. And as with all matters of taste, it is (mostly) pointless to argue about such feelings and opinions. There always will be Sansa haters and Sansa lovers (as well as those stark raving mad San/San shippers… ;) ).

    But many of the more extreme fans (and I’m not talking about extremely well-versed fans but rather those with extreme points of view) often fail to make a distinction between their personal feelings or opinions about a character on the one hand and the character’s writing, her or his place in the novels’ narrative on the other hand. Thus, while it may be understandable to dislike, for example, Sansa’s* personality (that is, her beliefs and actions), it would be absurd to attack her characterisation in the novels – or in the television series, for that matter. People who think that Sansa – as a character – is extraneous, negligible or poorly crafted are simply not very perceptive. Their general opinions about the novels or television series (especially the former’s subtleties) are probably distorted by the bias I argued against above – or simply superficial.
    The biggest problem of such a view is that it prevents one from opening to new feelings and experiences: If I hate Sansa and let my judgement of her personality spoil my appreciation of her superb characterisation or particular perspective on the narrative, how are another’s arguments about Sansa’s decisions supposed to change that? I reckon that it would be much more difficult than without my conflated viewpoints.

    That said, there are reviewers who are so biased – or superficial – as to refrain from even discussing particular characters and their part of the story, which, in my opinion, renders their reviews moot.

    *: One could, of course, choose any character.

  219. Rosen
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    I, for one, have quite enjoyed watching commenters criticize Larry’s behavior, while exhibiting the exact same sort of behavior themselves. The situational irony in this thread has been absolutely delicious.

    One can only hope they are not as passionate about silencing dissenting opinions out in the real world as they are over their precious fictional characters.

  220. The DarkStar
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    I think Larry’s reaction to Ned’s death was not genuine.
    ANY-WHO, I enjoyed his reviews last season, not so much this season.

  221. Drfunk
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Honestly, I don’t follow westeros as much as I used to. This isn’t too say their insight or resources on the sites are bad. I do feel at times they can come off a bit condescending in regards to the source material but then again considering their heavy involvement with the books/show it’s just human nature. That being said, they are far from being the least bit offensive. Little too hoity toity at times but always more or less professional.

    The folks from the podcast of Ice and Fire on the other hand are anything but politically correct and they are a RIOT! Seriously, if you guys want a good laugh and not take things too seriously theirs is a podcast to check out when it’s out.

  222. Entropy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Vikestad,

    A man says that a link is not a soapbox…

  223. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair:
    At this point in the story, what makes Sansa more helpless (i.e. “enduring”) than Jaime?He’s arguably the best sword in Westeros, she’s a young girl, and they’re both in custody.Except he’s in chains and she’s dining with the Queen.Characterize Sansa how you like.I characterize it as brilliant writing.

    I think there is a lot more going on than just “both are in custody.” I see how the situation is gendered. Jaime can mouth off to his captors. His resistance is verbal, and eventually physical. He gets an escape scene. Then Cat frees him and he becomes his own man. Sansa, as both a bride piece and a hostage, has to put on a front. Then she gets carted off to another place where she has to perform the same rituals for another male patriarch. The same thing she was doing at KL, only this time she’s processing the how’s and why’s of power, instead of just aping it.

  224. KG
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Here’s a shocking newsflash:

    Larry has the right to think differently than you do. (GASP!)

  225. Obsidian
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m completely stunned to come here and find people ranting about Larry’s rant and what’s more ,have been busy trying to get his reviews boycotted here and elsewhere .

    What planet am I on ?

  226. Entropy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Rosen,

    Well said… Seems a little strange that some people have a hard time analyzing their own words.

  227. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Yeah. Of course. Like I said — brilliant writing.

  228. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Okay, I re-watched Larry’s review, and the rant was harsher than I remembered… but DAMN it’s funny! I’m so glad I find him entertaining, rather than offensive. Some of his quotes this week are just hilarious! (e.g. “Where’s my sympathy for Sansa? It’s in the dictionary, right between shit and syphilis!” LOL!!!). <– blacked out, to avoid offending anyone.

    And yes, I think he plays to the camera a little bit. He's definitely a bit of an actor/ performer. His reviews/statements/opinions are best taken with a grain of salt. :)

  229. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    Dr. Funk -heh, hoity toity is a good word to describe them… the country club of GoT reviews ;) Speaking of raunchy reviews, what is the name of the group that did the Bryan Cogman video interview a few weeks back? They looked like a fun motley crew.

  230. TC
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    I havent watched Larry’s review for this episode yet, but I do think they have been less entertaining so far this season. I also think there is a big difference between saying you dislike a person’s review and you won’t be watching them any more and trying to insist that NO one should be watching his reviews. It’s an adult TV show and you should have the ability to self censor what you read, without trying to censor for every other reader. It’s not like it is difficult to avoid if you choose to. It’s quite different from inappropriate comments which are mixed in with no warning until you read them.

  231. Doran's Gouty Toe
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    On a lighter note: HBO’s Inside the Episode used a great piece by Arvo Pärt as musical background (during the Tyrell bit).

    Thanks HBO for existing.

  232. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk:
    Meg,

    The folks from the podcast of Ice and Fire on the other hand are anything but politically correct and they are a RIOT! Seriously, if you guys want a good laugh and not take things too seriously theirs is a podcast to check out when it’s out.

    Speaking of that podcast, I might be a guest on their review episode (recording later tonight). Not sure why they invited me on, but hey, why not? :)

  233. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    On a more positive note……… Is there anyone who is missing that SHOULD be included on the “Notable” recaps and reviews?….. (since everyone hates censorship and everyone’s favorite has a right to be included)…… ;)

  234. Antti Peltokorpi
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    I was a fan of Larry’s recaps of the first season, and I still tune in to check them out for season 2.

    I personally also disliked Sansa as a character at that point of the story, although I still empathized with her. Thus I have no issue with Larry’s dislike of the character, just the way he disclosed that in his rant. Don’t get me wrong, I like his no-bullshit attitude, but like some others here, I was genuinely offput by some of his reasoning.

    He goes on for minutes about Sansa not deserving sympathy because she doesn’t go all kamikaze on Joffrey. A 13 year old girl in a situation like that? Kamikaze? On the king? Is he serious? And then he proceeds to lecture the viewers on his real life views on victims. I genuinely felt like turning off the video at that point, and I’m not exactly the most touchy person when it comes to that kind of stuff.

    And again, this coming from someone who likes his recaps, particularly season 1.

  235. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    In the end, whatever Larry, or any other Sansa-hater says about Sansa is irrelevant because, I’ve realized, GRRM loves Sansa. He has kept her alive thus far, redeemed her character, put so much time and effort into writing her characterization. The only opinion that matters on the subject of Sansa is GRRM’s, and I’m glad that’s an opinion I can agree with. Her story is being built up to the point where her ascension to power is inevitable, and then I will laugh in the face of all those who spent their time vehemently hating her, a 13 year old whose only crime was being a young girl.

  236. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Strepsi: The hilarious AfterElton recap is up.

    http://www.afterelton.com/tv/recaps/game-thrones-205

    Okay, I finally read it. Busy day. OMG! Hilarious. Didn’t last week’s recap round-up cite Brian Juergens? Why not this week?

    Back in the KL, Tyrion and Bronn (Jerome Flynn) wander about, drawing no attention to themselves whatsoever, nosiree. Just your run-of-the-mill well-heeled little person and his ogre companion out for a daily stroll! They hear a manic street preacher going on about the incestuous Queen and sadistic boy king and Tyrion’s all, “Nailed it!” but he’s not thrilled when Bronn points out that the references to a “demon monkey” are aimed at him.

    Now she’s comfortably ensconced in Xaro Xhaon Ducksauce’s estate, and is training one of her dragons to cook meat on the windowsill. She orders, “Dracarus!” and the little bugger sears a chunk of skirt-steak better than a Top Chef Master. Adorable! I’m hoping that next she’ll command, “Drakkar Noir!” and force the little tyke to douse her in crappy musk.

    She pops up out of a crock of sunflowers to tell Ser Jorah (Iain Glen) that “fire is power.”

    Okay, WHO THE EFF WAS THAT? Was it Bjork? Cobra Commander? I haven’t the foggiest. And while some people might find what she’s doing with the hexagon face-tiles and armbands and pendant and print to be a bit matchy-matchy, I think she TOTALLY pulls it off, don’t you?

    ** wiping away tears**

  237. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    You’re taking this far too personally.

    Many show viewers have only seen TV show Sansa, up to the equivalent of Book 2. Many, but not all, book readers had a problem with Sansa, but found her to be a much more interesting character by the time they’re in Book 3. Many TV show viewers haven’t had the chance to “come around” regarding their opinion of her yet.

    There’s no reason for you to get mean about some people who don’t care for your favorite fictional character.

  238. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair: Okay, I finally read it. Busy day. OMG! Hilarious. Didn’t last week’s recap round-up cite Brian Juergens? Why not this week?

    He puts them up late. I would’ve included his this week if he had it up in the morning, but he didn’t. There are loads of reviews/recaps out there so if someone doesn’t have it up when the roundup is ready to go out, I just find another one to share. I do really like the AfterElton one a lot.

  239. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Del,

    Aw, am I mean? Don’t take it personally.
    I just really love Sansa, why does that offend you so?
    Does it irk you so much that Sansa will “win the game of thrones?” And that GRRM loves her?

  240. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    I’m not taking it personally, I’m just confused by it is all. I won’t trouble you any more on this, though. Just realize that your behavior completely negates your fake outrage over “sexism and homophobia,” and shows your true colors as just a super fan taking things way too far about a fictional character.

    As a side note, I already said that I liked Sansa by the time I got to Book 3. I sincerely hope that she gives Petyr his and ends up in a good place by series end.

  241. purplejilly
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,
    The After Elton review makes my life worth living. It is so hilarious. That sort of stuff is what I really enjoy..

  242. Alan
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook: I know this is totally off-topic, but am I the only one who is actually put off by video reviews?

    Whenever I go online to look up an article/review/etc, I want text. I never want a video, because a video means I have to watch the entire length of the video to get the information I want. I want text. I want to be able to skim through and pick out the information I need. This isn’t to say I don’t read entire bodies of text, but oftentimes I pick out one thing then read around it. Morever, I can read most articles or reviews quicker than the entire duration of a video — especially Larry’s which are like 20 minutes long. I like Larry’s video reviews because we get to see how animated he gets.. I just wish he’d edit them and make them shorter and sexier.

    +1,000,000. Who are you people with all this free time? I can read a written review with as much content about five times as quickly, plus they are edited and are often written with a real thought to flow and unified theme.

    I vastly prefer most written internet content, but almost always prefer it over podcasts and people staring at webcams.

  243. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Del: That is still assuming that the character isn’t liked because it’s a woman who’s enduring hardship with dignity.That’s never said, that’s just what you’re assuming.

    Sorry, but it’s not just what I’m assuming. Larry commented specifically on this quality as a feminine archetype that he dislikes.

  244. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Understood. His tardiness may be due to the amount of work he puts into them. What, with all the images of ducksauce hanging around Xaro Xhaon Ducksauce’s neck and Bran and Hodor on a box of Raisin’ Bran and Dany superimposed over a clip of Janet Jackson’s “Escapade” video and promo photo of ABC’s “Wildfire” the series, etc.

  245. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    Doran’s Gouty Toe:
    On a lighter note: HBO’s Inside the Episode used a great piece by Arvo Pärt as musical background (during the Tyrell bit).

    Thanks HBO for existing.

    HBO. Making our literary dreams come true.

    So looking forward to hearing more about them doing American Gods.

  246. The DarkStar
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    That’s awesome.

  247. purplejilly
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Also just want to jump into the Larry fray and offer my support for Larry – He doesn’t like Sansa’s character and that’s his right to an opinion. And people should not be contacting him and harassing him for telling him he is wrong for not liking Sansa. Larry goes on to talk later about Brienne and Catelyn and their scene in the woods, and how much he loves that, because he likes the portrayal of strong female characters. I agree with Larry on that. Sansa is the sort of typical female trope of the helpless damsel in distress, and I am tired of seeing these types of portrayals. So is Larry, apparently. Just my two cents worth.

  248. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    I´m not a fan of the character (or submissive people) but this thing with Sansa reminds me the criticism that some people did to Jewish who survived Nazi concentration camps: “You should have rebelled, there were more jewish than nazis at the camps, after all”, they said deceiving themselves with common sense. I recommend to those who can not understand Sansa´s submissive behavior to read “If This Is a Man” by Primo Levi. He says, basically, that everything in the concentration camps was deliberately created to suppress the dignity of man. The same happens to Sansa, she can not show anything resembling a personality at the risk of being tortured or killed.

  249. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Sansa is actually the strongest character on the show. “A Lady’s courtesy is her armor”

  250. Del
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    I suppose Godwin’s Law had to come into play eventually.

    Anyway, a good evening to everyone. Only 1 more week until Ygritte!

  251. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsrXc3neQ6c
    My favorite part is at the 2:45 mark….. :)

  252. scott glennon
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    I would just like to commend everyone for not taking to Sophie Turner to task. I think she OWNS this role, and has delivered time and time again. It is the hallmark of a great actor that they can say alot while saying very little. Judging by the emotions on this thread, I’d say she’s getting the job done. Superbly. Rock on, Sophie!

  253. DB
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    *high five* Those moments of the show make me so happy. It’s terrible how much of a disservice they’re doing to Sansa’s character on the show, what with cutting her scenes so much and leaving her out two episodes thus far. We haven’t even gotten the “Come to the godswood if you want to go home” scene yet

  254. molt
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Well I didn’t get the whole Larry thing till I watched his video and quiet frankly I’m shocked. Shocked that he was mad that people were mad at him about a fictional character but he also went on a rant about a fictional character? We are talking about someone who don’t even exist for crying out aloud! I don’t condone whatever other people told him but his reaction is also over the top. You don’t glorify the victim?!?! That they should kill themselves? Why because they are the victims? What happened to getting back at them AND staying alive as well? He was talking about a fictional character but his views were a little bit frightening because you can clearly see that he is not talking about a character but his real views. I guess he will be mad if a family member is raped but the person “endured” it because it was a man the size of the Mountain. That’s not cool and both parties are wrong, i mean Larry and those that sent the hate mails. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

  255. PetetheGreek
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    This thread reminded me of a penny arcade cartoon Pat Rothfuss once linked. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 WIC and OITF, bless you for your hard work and patience!

  256. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    andrea: this thing with Sansa reminds me the criticism that some people did to Jewish who survived Nazi concentration camps… I recommend to those who can not understand Sansa´s submissive behavior to read “If This Is a Man” by Primo Levi … she can not show anything resembling a personality at the risk of being tortured or killed.

    Bullseye!

    How about Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl? Frankl, himself a Nazi concentration camp survivor, described 3 stages of inmate psychosis: (1) shock, (2) apathy – exhibiting only the behavior necessary for survival and (3) depersonalization.

    This is Sansa. I’m jealous of you, Andrea. It’s been too long since my college philosophy classes. Nice.

  257. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Del: it’s BS to yell “sexism” over not liking a fictional character, and assuming that it’s entirely due to a character’s gender.  

    I dont know if anyone said that it was entirely because Larry doesn’t like “women.” To me it seems like he doesn’t like weakness as a trait, in fictional and real life men or women. That’s why I think this particular attitude (not Larry as a person) is sexist because fearing weakness is a trait that tends to produce more subtle misogynistic attitudes–not hatred of “women” in this case but fear of weakness in men or women (femmephobia, homophobia, what have you). For example, he thought it was weak that Stannis didn’t fight Renly like a “real” man on the battlefield. Therefore it seemed like Stannis was less of a man in his eyes. He clearly has a strict model of manhood that he judges the characters against. Not necessarily a bad thing, but its probably good to re-examine the flaws in that model every once in a while.

  258. Arthur
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Are last nights ratings released yet???

  259. Suzaku
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    I like Sansa having read all five books, but she was really insufferable for, I don’t know, pretty much all of the first three.

  260. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    lol did you just bring nazis into this? ok this has officially become ridiculous

  261. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    PetetheGreek,

    I would agree with this if we could change “anonymity” to “Youtube channel” :P

  262. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    :) well, I´m a big fan of Primo Levi who also was a surviver and always have him in my mind. I didn´t read Frankl but I know they were in the same camp so I guess they both say the same.

    Del: Godwin’s Law

    I don´t know what that means.

  263. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    gswelcome,

    oh please, think.

  264. Planet-Ex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    andrea:
    gswelcome,

    oh please, think.

    And you could just use google:

    “It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.”

  265. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    *shrugs*

    You are the one who has Godwin’d the discussion. Could have taken a pro-Sansa stance without it. I guess the internets are right, one can’t have a discussion about ANYTHING without someone tying Nazis into it.

  266. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    gswelcome,

    Would you be satisfied if she compared Sansa’s situation to Stockholm Syndrome? She made a valid reference to what she knew of history and the treatment of holocaust victims. She was NOT calling someone a Nazi.

  267. JamesL
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Interesting article on next weeks episode. http://www.eonline.com/news/watch_with_kristin/game_of_thrones_scoop_get_ready/312626
    Someone shows up at Harrenhal who knows who Arya is, any ideas who this could be? I wonder if whoever it is ends up being her 2nd kill for Jaqen.

  268. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Planet-Ex: by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.”

    I didn´t do that.

    gswelcome: I guess the internets are right

    I guess Godwin doesn´t have Primo Levi´s talent.

  269. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    thank you!

  270. gswelcome
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Why precisely were Nazis brought up at all? I still find that fascinating. I suppose pro-Sansa side is getting desperate. I don’t see why the Sansa lovers are so defensive on their love of her and need to tell others how wonderful she is. Isn’t it enough that they like the character and others don’t?

  271. Rose
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Again, the discussion here is not about Sansa or Larry’s opinion of Sansa. It is about how Larry brought real-world opinions into his view of Sansa, real world opinions that were clearly victim blaming and critical of anything but traditional strength. He took the argument AWAY from Sansa by turning the discussion away from Sansa and towards victimhood and perceived passivity.

    I don’t think anyone here has their jimmies rustled because an internet reviewer said something mean about a fictional character. Plenty of reviewers hate characters I love and love characters I hate. That is a normal and harmless opinion.

    Larry made his opinion about REAL WORLD ISSUES — the nature of victimhood, survival, endurance, and passivity. HE did that. If you listen to his review, HE turned the issue away from Sansa and towards victim-shaming. I 100% disagreed with him saying that Sansa is a horrible person who sold out her family. It didn’t bother me at all. Larry’s reactions are always enjoyable whether they’re palatable or not. But LARRY turned the discussion from Sansa to victimhood. THAT is the issue here.

    I LOVE Larry’s reviews. I had a HUGE problem with his rant on victims and have a HUGE problem with WiC supporting that rant.

  272. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    AfterElton recap is great! very funny!

  273. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    gswelcome,

    Why does it matter to you WHY someone brought up Nazis? She did it for the reasons she stated.

    You tried to belittle her by pulling out your tired internet meme……. sorry it didn’t work out for you this time….. better luck next time………

  274. Steve
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood:
    gswelcome,

    Why does it matter to you WHY someone brought up Nazis? She did it for the reasons she stated.

    You tried to belittle her by pulling out your tired internet meme……. sorry it didn’t work out for you this time….. better luck next time………

    Because bringing Nazi’s into a discussion about someone disliking a fictional character from a book and a tv show is about as asinine as you can get.

  275. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    The i09 recap is up, and once again proves to be the best out of any of them. I’d post a link, but this post isn’t about Larry Williams reviews or Nazi’s, so I doubt anyone will be paying any attention.

  276. Breakspear
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Its unfortunate for Sansa in the series that a major key piece of her character is completely missing. Without this, Sansa is only a teen-age self-centered mean girl who is mean to whomever she can be mean to (her septa, her handmaid etc.), and is trying to survive in a hostile environment.

    One major difference between how Sansa is portrayed in the books vs the series up to this point, is her complete infatuation with songs and stories. In the stories, the weak always triumphs over the strong, the just always wins against evil, princes and knights are always good people, people’s deaths glorified, etc.. When she goes in the the real world (south) and applies what she knows about people from the songs and stories, she gets screwed. Its like someone who grew up watching saturday morning cartoons and developing a black and white concept of the world growing up and realizing the world is grey.

    This culminates into her telling the queen her father’s plans of sending her and Arya to Winterfell, which basically leads to the massacre that followed. Until her father’s death, cognitive dissonance took place to fit what was going on to her conception of what should be going on. Even after, she is oblivious in her role in the events that followed because her world view is limited to how things occur in songs and stories. Her character development is tied with her realization that the world is not like the stories, not just learning to survive.

    Although D & D are doing a great job for the most part, maybe if they presented Sansa’s development better, Larry’s reactions may be different.

  277. Steve
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    I personally hated Sansa until A Storm of Swords, at which point she became one of my favorite characters and during one of my many rereads I even began to appreciate her arc throughout ACOK.

    But the arguments against Larry Williams are so retarded.

  278. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Steve,

    And your misreading of the entire situation you are describing may be just a smidgen worse IMO…….

  279. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Breakspear, aren’t you just describing every Stark, ever? :P

  280. Weirwood
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    Thanks! After a quick google search I found http://io9.com/ and the screencaps of the new Prometheus aliens! :)

  281. Skipjack
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Most non-readers I’ve spoken to about the show really dislike Sansa. The others just think she’s a drip and unworth their interest one way or another. I think it’s because she suffers in likeability by comparison to the rest of her family, and most people aren’t interested in a deeper reading of her when there are so many other characters to engage with. If it wasn’t for her POV chapters in the books it’s unlikely as many book readers would find her appealing either.

    I’ve tried to get people interested in her dilemma but really lovely people at the most just shrug and say they haven’t seen it yet, and maybe they’ll change their minds in her favor if the show offers something positive to say for her.

  282. Breakspear
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Also I was thinking, the genre of the source material is “fantasy.” Its not “non-fiction,” “historical,” nor just “fiction.” It is where we can wish things that are not true in our world to be true in this fictional world. Everyone is entitled to want this fictional world to be how they want it to be. Ultimately it is what the author, or in this case, the writers of the episodes make it what it is.

    If Larry wants a world where victims stand up for themselves, thats valid: its fantasy.
    If Larry wants a world where people sacrifice themselves for the greater good, that’s valid: its fantasy.

    This is the whole point of it being fantasy, not just fiction.
    Martin keeps the human elements realistic. But the setting, the environment, values, customs, morals are all fantasy. Trying to tie fantasy, especially one like this one to a set moral code is ridiculous. Martin subscribes to the idea of Moral Relativism; he shows many different moralities with many different cultures he presents.

    Sure we all have our real world values morals etc.. We all want others to agree with what we believe in. But in this fictional fantasy world, indulge in the opportunity to try to imagine what life might be like under these different set of contingencies.

  283. Mike
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Recap-gate!!

  284. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    gswelcome: Why precisely were Nazis brought up at all?

    Only indirectly. We were comparing Sansa’s psychosis to that of the inmates in German concentration camps. (A very astute comparison initiated by andrea, BTW.) It’s not our fault that the captors happened to be members of the National Socialist German Workers’ party.

  285. Arthur
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    OMG!!!

    Who gives a &$@& what Larry thinks…

    The fact that some of you are sitting here and typing deep inner thoughts as you over analyze what some ranting halfwit says, who hasn’t even read the books. In and by itself is extremly perplexing.

  286. Breakspear
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Sansa development is the only one who’s development is believing she knew all about how the world works through song and story and learning how its not and adapting slowly.

    In general,
    Bran’s development is tied to recovering from all his dreams being crushed and developing a new identity. Arya is anti-social and moral ambiguity personified. Basically she disregards all rules and customs and learns to do whatever she has to to survive. Robb, although we only get a glimpse from Catelyn’s pov in the books, is a man trying to live up to expectations placed on him. Rickon is just getting wild. John is the most complex, and there are many themes.

  287. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Obviously I have to clarify that I wasn´t attacking Larry W, at all. I´m saying that there are other ways to understand this character (Sansa). Also seems that I have to repeat that I´m not a Sansa fan and I´m not making an apology about her.
    To all of you who has insulted me without paying attention to my comment (or Mike´s) I think you just saw a stinging word and jumped to my throat because… it´s easy? But what do I know.

  288. Lex
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Rose:
    I LOVE Larry’s reviews. I had a HUGE problem with his rant on victims and have a HUGE problem with WiC supporting that rant.

    WiC is NOT supporting anything. Everyone needs to stop trying to connect WiC with the opinions of other reviewers. Maybe WiC needs to put a disclaimer before the recap roundup posts.

  289. Mike Chair
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    My final point is that maybe Sansa behaves this way because she is damaged. Seriously mentally damaged. Her father beheaded in front of her. His head on a spike. The abuses of Joffrey. It’s one thing to be held captive as a prisoner of war. It’s quite another to be so abused simply because of the accident of birth. She acts only to please her jailers and, thus, to save herself. In this way she is like real-life instances of similar horrendous circumstances. To be written in this way — to be performed this way — is great art. I’m glad I’m a fan.

  290. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    JamesL:
    Interesting article on next weeks episode. http://www.eonline.com/news/watch_with_kristin/game_of_thrones_scoop_get_ready/312626
    Someone shows up at Harrenhal who knows who Arya is, any ideas who this could be? I wonder if whoever it is ends up being her 2nd kill for Jaqen.

    Well, it might tie in to something I’ve been wondering about. Since they didn’t introduce the character Harwin it would be strange if/when she meets the Brotherhood to not have that person present that allows her to reveal herself (unfortunate, because I love that scene). So maybe a Winterfell soldier that she knows will be taken prisoner, who will in some way tie in to Beric’s gang later? Just a shot in the dark.

  291. Entropy
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    This thread seems as good as any to ask this question, I only go on this site with my iPhone, how do I see what has been blacked out (spoiler tags)?

  292. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Pastor of Muppets – I love your screen name! <3

  293. andrea
    Posted April 30, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair: To be written in this way

    Yes, Sansa is not an easy character to love because no one wants to identify with her for different reasons, but one could try to see beyond that and be more demanding/strict with oneself.

  294. Lex
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Well, A Podcast of Ice and Fire just had me on as a guest!

    It was a lot of fun! My favourite part was when one person asked me if I was FaBio, and I said something like “Nooo, I’m not nearly as great a man as he. But I’m one of his bannermen.”

  295. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Thank you voice of reason :)

  296. Sara
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    The vitriol in here is reminding me why I generally don’t participate in fandoms. All the scary, obsessive people come creeping out eventually and have to take the fun away from what being a fan actually is.

  297. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    Sara:
    The vitriol in here is reminding me why I generally don’t participate in fandoms. All the scary, obsessive people come creeping out eventually and have to take the fun away from what being a fan actually is.

    But then you get to experience one of the great parts of fandom, making fun of those people. ;)

  298. Stark Bannerman
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    They seem to like to take the episode titles from lines of dialogue, so it seems a bit odd to me that this particular ep wasn’t called “The Old Gods And The New” as that line featured prominently. “Ghost Of Harrenhal” seems like better fit for the next episode when-presumably-we’ll get to see a certain character being a ‘ghost in harrenhal’.

  299. Jules
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    I don’t get all this hubbub over Larry’s recap. Do you know what I do when I disagree with someone’s opinions on a recap? Here’s what I do: I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK. Get over yourselves.

  300. paylor
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    DB,

    I think the point that William made is that he was, and is, being personally attacked for sharing his opinion on a fictional character and he’s right. It’s beyond messed up that people have sent him hate mail because he ultimately doesn’t like a fictional character. I love Sansa, but this is ridiculous. William is a human being. Sansa is a work of fiction. Let’s get our priorities straight, please.

  301. Arthur
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    So I was thinking of Meera today at work and if D&D do plan to bring her along for the TV series ride, how would they do this?

    There are many ways they could introduce us to Meera but so far out of all my guesses the most logical way would be to have her find Bran in the woods at the start of season 3.

    Meera could also be bestowed with the Green Dream gift. She could use this to explain how she knew she would find him there and that her father sent her to make sure Bran stays safe or whatever.

    They can develope a kind of, forgive my lack of better explanation, a Jedi/Padawan, type relationship. In other words, Meera could act like his mentor. (For those of you who wouldn’t of understood my Starwars analogy).

    Bran could also develop a “crush” on her and maybe it could develope down the road…

    Any thoughts???

  302. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    Entropy,

    Unfortunately you have to copy and paste the spoilers into your Notes app for the iPhone.

    Meg,

    Thanks! ;)

  303. Langkard
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    Herr Fick,

    That was very well said. Thank you.

  304. Langkard
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Just to annoy the San/San shippers, I’ve decided to start calling Xaro Xhoan Daxos by his new name…

    San San Ducksauce

  305. chavalah
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Del: But he’s not shaming assault victims. He’s talking about a fictional character he does not agree with, and whose story he does not like. You’re making this out to be bigger than it actually is, which was what caused this issue in the first place: people e-mailing him/messaging him as sexist for not liking Sansa’s character.

    The quote I was responding to was very distinctly about assault victims on the whole. And just because I point out that this is talk of shaming victims for not acting in accordance with one person’s beliefs doesn’t mean that I endorse hate mail about Sansa or anything else. I’m speaking publicly about a public issue.

  306. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Larry Williams is the man. My favorite part was when he talked about how every time you start feeling good about something you end up getting crushed. D&D are doing their job if a non-reader is feeling that. The other stuff he said didn’t bother me. I like Sansa but I don’t worry whether he does. I also took his stance on victims not as attacking victims but as not turning a victim into a hero simply because they are a victim. He looks at Sansa as a bad person so it doesn’t surprise me that he has no sympathy for her now. Acting like he is condemning all victims is ridiculous.

  307. Alan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    andrea:
    Obviously I have to clarify that I wasn´t attacking Larry W, at all. I´msaying that there are other ways to understand this character (Sansa). Also seems that I have to repeat that I´m not a Sansa fan and I´m not making an apology about her.
    To all of you who has insulted me without paying attention to my comment (or Mike´s) I think you justsaw a stinging word andjumped to my throat because… it´s easy?But what do I know.

    Your and Mike’s conversation was pretty much the only interesting thing on this thread.

  308. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    Rose,

    Except that he actually said: I DO NOT LIKE VICTIMS. I THINK THAT VICTIMS ARE WEAK. THERE IS NOTHING ADMIRABLE ABOUT ENDURING HARDSHIP.

    You incorrectly quoted Larry Williams. He never said what you said he did. Just putting something in all caps doesn’t make it true. I had to go rewatch that to confirm you were being inaccurate, to put it politely. He did not say I DO NOT LIKE VICTIMS. He said, “I do not glorify a victim”. He did not say I THINK VICTIMS ARE WEAK. There isn’t even a quote close to that. He did not say THERE IS NOTHING ADMIRABLE ABOUT ENDURING HARDSHIP. He said, “I do not glorify someone who does nothing but ‘endure’ and ‘survive’”. Hopefully that ends the controversy for you since you must have just heard him incorrectly.

  309. JamesL
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    I’ve been thinking about it and I’m pretty sure it is going to be Littlefinger going to Harrenhal to talk to Tywin about the Joffrey and Margery marriage.

  310. TheSmartOne
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    The problem I have with Larry is that he’s gotten to comfortable with his new found fame he got last year. The dude just comes off as an Elitist prick, he reviews aren’t even fun to watch anymore personally I enjoy other youtubers reviews this year.

  311. Stannis
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    This might seem off topic, but if there is anyone out there with a deep, expressive voice (english or american), who is interested in volunteering to read a sci-fi audiobook in a similar vein to GoT (not for profit unfortunately, but for fun!!), please feel free to contact me at papacapsicum@gmail.com :)

  312. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    So I was thinking of Meera today at work and if D&D do plan to bring her along for the TV series ride, how would they do this?

    There are many ways they could introduce us to Meera but so far out of all my guesses the most logical way would be to have her find Bran in the woods at the start of season 3.

    Meera could also be bestowed with the Green Dream gift.She could use this to explain how she knew she would find him there and that her father sent her to make sure Bran stays safe or whatever.

    They can develope a kind of, forgive my lack of better explanation, a Jedi/Padawan, type relationship.In other words, Meera could act like his mentor. (For those of you who wouldn’t of understood my Starwars analogy).

    Bran could also develop a “crush” on her and maybe it could develope down the road…

    Any thoughts???

    Yes, that you are obsessed with thie Meera/Bran relationship that won’t happen because she’s twice his age ( him being 8) AND he is turning into a tree :P

    Regarding Larry, he is totally wrong about his victim blaming rant….but guys, he is very naive in general, he is what, 23? When I was his age I was the same…young and stupid. He’ll grow up.

    Larry’s best value is to see what is the general nerdy fandom reaction to the show.

    PD: Andrea, estan locos, estos romanos :P

  313. Chris
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Superdeluxe,

    I, too, loved Andy Greenwald’s piece.
    When he said that Jon and Sam have ended up on Hoth, I laughed out loud.

  314. purplejilly
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Mike Chair,
    Victor Frankl’s book was great. I was haunted for a long time after reading that, but it was also incredibly inspiring.

  315. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    Can you give me the quote where he blames the victim? I keep seeing people say this but I didn’t hear him say that when I watched it. I heard him say he doesn’t glorify a victim. I heard him say he doesn’t glorify someone just for enduring. I never heard him blame victims though. Now if you want to say he thinks a victim should be proactive in getting out of their bad situation then I could agree with you on that but that isn’t blaming the victim. So please explain how Larry went on a victim blaming rant? If you can’t provide a quote then don’t you find it silly that you called him stupid and naive. Also when I was Larry’s age I had already learned that calling people stupid and naive was not a great way to express your maturity. You must have missed that life lesson in your many years on this earth.

  316. purplejilly
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Dan: He looks at Sansa as a bad person so it doesn’t surprise me that he has no sympathy for her now.

    Right, he emphasized, in the part I heard, about how Sansa went against Arya, and against her family, when she lied to the King and her father about what happened with Joffrey and Arya, and Larry said you never go against your family. So she is getting what she deserves (my words) for going against her family and lying. If she had told the truth back when the whole Direwolf problem came along, Ned and Robert might have had a break then, and Ned might have taken his girls and gone back to Winterfell. Maybe Larry should be a House Tully fan, instead of Stark : )

  317. Oi!
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Any truth that Daario casting is currently underway (westeros forum).

  318. Dreamlife
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    James Hibberd is my favorite book-reader reviewer, because his reviews are long and usually very funny. At the same time, he doesn’t feel the need to obsess over book and TV differences. He put my thoughts about the Brienne-Catelyn oath scene into words that make sense. I couldn’t figure out what it was about that scene that worried me, but he seemed to feel the same way. We just haven’t had enough time with Brienne to notice that she’s this huge, awkward, but sweet and noble knight. That scene appeared to be melodramatic, but it was supposed to be, coming from Brienne. She takes such things very seriously where others in Westeros don’t.

    Alan Sepinwall is my favorite TV reviewer, but I don’t participate in the discussions like I do with other series he reviews because I don’t want to inadvertently spoil.

    Larry’s video reviews always put a smile on my face and I didn’t mind his 8 minute Sansa rant. I think it is out of line for people to send him hate mail for not liking a character. I grew to like Sansa later in the series, but definitely at this point, she is nothing but a spoiled brat. You’d think getting slapped around and humiliated would teach her a lesson about her attitude, but she continues to act that way towards Shae. I cringe at the thought of her wedding to Tyrion when she won’t even kneel down so he can put his cloak on her shoulders I don’t agree that she should have killed herself (and Joffrey) for the good of the realm, but I do wish she had shoved him when she had the chance. And turning her back on Arya and Ned was unforgivable. Arya is the younger sister; Sansa should have stuck up for her. All those who are saying Larry should be removed from the links are being ridiculous. Don’t watch if you don’t like. And those claiming he’s sexist? Hello! He loves Arya, Brienne, Catelyn, and Margaery and he even admires Cersei.

    Anyway, I’m surprised he didn’t mention Bran and Theon. Must not have made much of it.

  319. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    It’s not feasible for me to read all these now, so forgive if this has been stated before. People are throwing around the “kill herself” idea, as if Larry said all victims should just kill themselves. He has a great point. His indication that Sansa should try to pull a Cressen is totally reasonable. At that point, I feel like a lot of us might do the same thing. We saw a glimmer of that intention in Sansa in the shadow of her father’s piked head at the end of season one. It would be difficult for her, still, since she doesn’t seem to be alone with Joffrey without at least the Kingsguard there, but it’s worth a thought in the back of her mind.

    (Okay, maybe “pulling a Cressen” is a poor choice of words, since that didn’t work out so well for Cressen… but you know what I mean.)

    And for the record, I neither love, nor loathe Sansa – but I do find her POV chapters interesting.

  320. Drfunk
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    After all this talk of Larry said this and said that blah blah blah.. you Larry haters realize what you’ve done right? He’s going to hear about this and then come looking through these comments… Then he’ll troll us like the last review by saying he’ll just put in a quick word before launching into a 3 hour debate about how his integrity is being questioned on Wic.net!

    If being called a sexist warrants a 10min cuss rant, what will the involvement of nazis result… In a sick twisted way, I hope he reads all these comments and launches a 6 hour tirade against some of the silliness of this thread. It’s hilarious, and I hope some of you haters come around and realize it’s not the end of the world.

    On another note, I keep plugging this guy every week and I hope some of you start following his review:

    http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/game-thrones-s02e05-recap-review-spoiler-and-wtf-alert-2922041.html

    Jordan Yerman reviews in the same style as Hibbert. If you like silly pop culture humour reference review then check his out, it comes out a bit later in the week but still entertaining as hell! His reference of Davos Seaworth as Han Solo is so true!

  321. LV
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    gswelcome,
    Del,
    Planet-Ex,

    Psychological comparisons with survivors of the Holocaust may be unwarranted or tasteless but they are not instances of Godwin’s Law.

    To ineptly invoke the “law” in situations such as this has become a rhetoric device without any merit as an argument.

  322. PatD
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    Okay, I re-watched Larry’s review, and the rant was harsher than I remembered… but DAMN it’s funny!

    This. I know I laughed.

    Larry is not a bad guy; he’s obviously just not for everyone. Let it go, folks.

    Tywin recognizing that Arya is a girl in disguise is no trivial example of the Lannister cunning. There’s a reason the writers had him so astutely pick up on that. He may not know it yet, but as soon as Tywin does find out that Cersei/Joff let Arya escape, he’s going to very quickly put two-and-two together about his smart, little, Northern cupbearer.

  323. Bgap
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    Mike Chair,
    Victor Frankl’s book was great.I was haunted for a long time after reading that, but it was also incredibly inspiring.

    Also read this during a very challenging time in my life, and I was inspired to…ahem…endure. And I agree with LV, unlike many ridiculous instances of Nazi/Hitler comparisons, (especially in politics) this one is more legitimate because it deals with prisoners and victims under the control of psychopaths.

  324. Pixie Me
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    The otaku assemble stuff is just silly. I like Sansa, but don’t care what others think, and he has every right to have the opposite opinion. But the rant? Not exactly mature. And as a childhood physical and sexual abuse survivor, I definitely winced at what he said about “glorifying victims” in that last review. I lost a lot of respect for him for it, even though I know what he said was about a fictional character. He does imply that his thinking regarding Sansa is his thinking standard for all “victims”. (Not an exact quote but he does say something like ‘I can stand people who just endure, people who do nothing about their situation.’)

  325. Rob
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Somebody is a sensitive Sally. So because you personally disagree with his opinion, you feel it’s your right to censor him. Fascist much?

  326. Inka
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Jules,

    Obviously you do give enough fuck to post here so get over yourself too.

  327. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Well, it’s looking like Larry’s taking things fairly personally. He’s posted on his Facebook page about people in this comment thread calling him a Nazi. I replied that no one had called him a Nazi but, rather, that someone had compared certain psychological features of holocaust victims to those of abuse victims like Sansa. I further said that the fact that he thinks this means people are calling him a Nazi makes me wonder about the content of the “hate mail” he received.

    My comment has been deleted. I can no longer comment at the OtakuAssemble facebook page. A previous comment, in which I said I could understand where he was coming from, suggested that maybe he was getting more mail than he would if comments were open on his videos and floated the idea of a comment thread policed by books readers who would screen it for spoilers before publishing comments, and made a few points about the character of Sansa, has also been deleted.

    I don’t know. I get that Larry has the right to his own opinion… Does he get that others have the right to respond with their own views?

  328. chavalah
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Breakspear: This is the whole point of it being fantasy, not just fiction.
    Martin keeps the human elements realistic. But the setting, the environment, values, customs, morals are all fantasy. Trying to tie fantasy, especially one like this one to a set moral code is ridiculous. Martin subscribes to the idea of Moral Relativism; he shows many different moralities with many different cultures he presents.

    This sounds like a flawed interpretation of fantasy to me. Martin provided a world with strange weather changes, prophecies, dragons, direwolves, and some people with supernatural powers. But that doesn’t make the main characters, on the whole, any less human than us in this world. Their moral codes are tied into realism; the characters grapple with questions of power and loyalty and survival and etc. etc. in the same way that we might. Sansa’s abuse in King’s Landing has nothing to do with “fantasy.” There are no spells or enchantments involved.

    I always saw it as Martin writing about people, not cultures. Sure, there are some things we have to accept–a highly sexist society, a world where raping, murdering and pillaging runs rampant especially during war, and a place where relatively good people, self-sacrificing people, victimized children, and well-drawn characters we can relate to don’t always come out on top. I don’t think Martin is particularly taking a stand on anything he imposes on his characters. According to his interviews he always meant for us to feel for their situations, and he particularly feels kinship with all of his POVs. If he didn’t, then certainly we wouldn’t feel moved to sit here debating them.

  329. DB
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Rob,

    LOL Sensitive Sally? Sexist much?

  330. Jules
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Inka,
    I care enough to comment because I would like to be able to come here and read about the show, not Larry Williams and the PC police.

  331. KG
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Larry has the right to think however he likes.
    Larry has the right to feel whatever he feels.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he thinks.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he feels.

    Because he is an American.

    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot think differently than you.
    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot feel differently than you.

    Believing and saying otherwise makes you … Nazis.

    And THAT is how Nazis actually relate to this converstaion. Militant assholes trying their level best to brutally bulldoze anyone who doesn’t fit into their particular worldview.

    The “you”s of this site make me sick.

  332. Anonymous Web User
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    The personal back and forth attacks here are really annoying.

    Take it elsewhere.

    It’s one thing to debate. It’s another to just insult each other.

  333. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Now that is Godwin’s Law being introduced properly! Congrats KG!

    And following someone blindly and believing they can do no wrong and are above criticism and that all of their detractors must be silenced has a vaguely fascist sound as well….. just saying.

  334. Anonymous Web User
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood:
    KG,

    Now that is Godwin’s Law being introduced properly! Congrats KG!

    And following someone blindly and believing they can do no wrong and are above criticism and that all of their detractors must be silenced has a vaguely fascist sound as well….. just saying.

    Who’s saying that?

    Most people are saying that they disagree with Larry but that he has a right to his opinion.

    On his youtube page, his supporters are saying that he shouldn’t have made the rant, or at least not as harsh as he made it, but that they still like his reviews. Very few are blindly following him.

    And WIC has made it clear that allowing his review to be linked is not equivalent to endorsing it.

  335. Ed
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Where’s the “LIKE” button???? THAT is how you do it, people.

    KG:
    Larry has the right to think however he likes.
    Larry has the right to feel whatever he feels.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he thinks.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he feels.

    Because he is an American.

    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot think differently than you.
    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot feel differently than you.

    Believing and saying otherwise makes you … Nazis.

    And THAT is how Nazis actually relate to this converstaion. Militant assholes trying their level best to brutally bulldoze anyone who doesn’t fit into their particular worldview.

    The “you”s of this site make me sick.

  336. KG
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Au contraire. I never said the “yous” don’t have the right to disagree or think their OWN things in their OWN way. I said they have no right to silence or denigrate anyone who is on the opposite side of that page.

    But it was a nice try at slapping me with that paintbrush :) I give you a 5/10

  337. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Larry has the right to think however he likes.
    Larry has the right to feel whatever he feels.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he thinks.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he feels.

    Because he is an American.

    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot think differently than you.
    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot feel differently than you.

    Believing and saying otherwise makes you … Nazis.

    And THAT is how Nazis actually relate to this converstaion. Militant assholes trying their level best to brutally bulldoze anyone who doesn’t fit into their particular worldview.

    The “you”s of this site make me sick.

    What does being an american has to do with anything??? I thought those things u listed are UNIVERSAL rights.

    Don’t mix up things, theres some ppl that wants Larry’s link removed, and some others (like me) that just think his opinions are not very mature (to say the least).

    I’m not that bothered anyway, as I said I think he is like 21, he’ll grow up to realize what he’s saying about victims in general is just plain wrong. I’m more worried about people in this page not realizing that.

    I’ts very easy to say “do something, go sacrificial lamb and kill joffrey blablabla..” when you’re not the one being abused. This is a very sensitive topic and I understand why many people are upset about it. There’s hundreds of woman getting killed every year in my country (and thousands in the world) that just “couldn’t do anything about it”, because is just not that fucking easy.

  338. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    But the Rights you proclaim for Larry also should be conferred to others…. that sword cuts both ways…….. and your opinion of me means little to nothing to me…. and that is how Larry should take criticism IMO…. NOT just delete negative comments and only bask in the light of his new found internet fame…… he sounds like he is playing the victim on his Facebook page…….. but I am sure he will endure………

  339. Josh
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    OMG did someone really bring up nazis? That’s the quickest way to lose an argument “Hey let compare men who committed some of the most heinous crimes in history to people going overboard on a reviewer”

    Come on guys. Not needed, not appropriate. And quite honestly, the term makes me sick.

    Also Sansa should not be compared to a Holocaust victim. Sansa is a political prisoner. I love Sansa and have always sympathized with her and in no way is she treated kindly but Holocaust victims were more treated like sub-humans. Sansa is a pawn, yes but a pawn they at least feed, cloth and give maids to. She is a PoW. Watch a documentary on the holocaust, speak to a victim, go to the holocaust cmuseum. Just be aware of what you’re comparing things too. And that goes for people on both sides of the argument.

    I mean I’m not a fan of Larry just because he’s a little too weird for me but to each their own.

    Anyway about reviews…

    Any word the New Yorker one yet? It’s a great read:

    http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/television/2012/05/07/120507crte_television_nussbaum?currentPage=all

    Basically a look at the series as a whole. Of course the sex scenes are brought up. Apparently one actress walked off the set because of them…Wonder what that’s about. But yes, the reviewer loves to the show too. Another win for Westeros.

  340. linecom1
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    POE FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    -LOVE,

    a podcast of ice and fire forum member :)

  341. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    lo cierto es que estoy un poco asustada. No me llamaría a mí misma ingenua pero parece que lo fui intentando ser razonable con quienes no quieren serlo, defiendan a quien defiendan y con aquellos que cuando ven una palabra urticante no pueden pensar más allá. ¿Fui realmente yo quien armó este lío? ¿Deberé restringir mis comentarios a lo lindo que es todo? Hoy será un buen día para NO perder la oportunidad de cerrar la boca ;)
    A propósito, lo siento mucho por el Barça … y por el Pep que es tan guapo!

  342. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    Great article thanks! I love reading and watching recaps and reviews when the reviewer is erudite and has a vocabulary beyond common expletives.

  343. TheBull
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Rose:
    Yes, he warned for a “Sansa rant,” but he sure didn’t warn that he was going to go on a victim blaming spiel. I was genuinely uncomfortable and very negatively affected by the way he completely underplayed the strength it takes TO endure. I am a Sansa fan, it’s true, but it doesn’t bother me that he doesn’t like Sansa. I don’t like a lot of characters others like, Robb being the biggest, and I expect others to respect my opinion. That’s fine. But the accusations he leveled against her got extremely personal and real-life and I’m not sure this site should be endorsing this.

    You can say “blah blah opinions on personal characters” but honestly, his opinions WEREN’T just about personal characters. He seriously sat there and told us that he has no respect for victims unless they meet his standards of fighting back. He told us straight-faced that that is his opinion in real life. I was INCREDIBLY uncomfortable about this, not as a Sansa supporter, but as a human being. He’s entitled to any horrible opinion he has, but does he deserve a stage for it? It’s absolutely not acceptable to belittle and shame victims for not “fighting back” and saying they’d be better served sacrificing their LIVES?

    And tbh …it’s true what everyone’s saying — Larry’s fire has gone out. The show that he wants GoT to be, one where Robb wins the North, Ned lives, conflicts are always settled by fights, and the sword is greater than the pen, that’s not the show that GoT is, and he’s just going to be more and more disillusioned by what’s coming. Whereas last year seeing how he reacted to things was literally the high point of my week, now he just seems so tepid. I was so excited to see how he reacted to Renly’s death and the shadowbaby, and he seemed more bored than anything else. I can’t imagine ANYTHING that’s going to happen in the remainder of the series that’s going to make him happy, other than the Purple Wedding, and eh, we can get that reaction from anywhere. The Starks will keep getting darker and darker, Dany isn’t coming home to Westeros any time soon, schemers always win and fighters always lose … This is a story about backroom deals and losing your personal honour to survive, and Larry isn’t interested in either one.

    I hate it because he was the best part of season one, but it’s the truth. Maybe we should just kill this one fast before it poisons everything slow :(

    Standing ovation

  344. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    andrea:
    Pau Soriano,

    lo cierto es que estoy un poco asustada.No me llamaría a mí misma ingenua pero parece que lo fui intentando ser razonable con quienes no quieren serlo,defiendan a quien defiendan y con aquellos que cuando ven una palabra urticante no pueden pensar más allá. ¿Fui realmente yo quien armó este lío? ¿Deberé restringir mis comentarios a lo lindo que es todo? Hoy será un buen día para NO perder la oportunidad de cerrar la boca ;)
    A propósito, lo siento mucho por el Barça … y por el Pep que es tan guapo!

    Aah muchas gracias! la verdad es que la gente estaba muy triste por aqui durante toda la semana…primero el madrid, luego el chelsea i finalmente Pep. Pero bueno, su rueda de prensa de despedida estuvo muy bien, la gente lo entiende i que se le va a hacer, todo lo bueno tiene su final ;)

    Y no te preocupes, la verdad es que tu post es de lo mejor de esta discusion, sino lo quieren (o pueden) entender no es tu culpa. Piensa que el problema de la red es que no sabes con quien estas debatiendo, y, muchas veces, es un problema de edad. El chico este, Larry, es muy joven y aun no entiende muchas cosas de como funciona el mundo. De la misma forma prefiero pensar que la mayoria de la gente que lo apoya es muy joven tambien..

    Y no ha sido para nada culpa tuya. De hecho, espero que gracias a ti alguien abra los ojos.

  345. Anonymous Web User
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    The whole irony about all the outrage (genuine or not, I’m not sure) about Larry is that it will only make him more popular.

    So, to the people who think he should be censored, congratulations on giving him more views on his site!

    Perhaps those who seem so upset at him are really clever, sneaky Larry supporters?

  346. chavalah
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Interesting to note how some people are arguing that Larry might “grow out of” his shallow opinions about victims–isn’t that a valid argument concerning some of Sansa’s behaviors?

    Also interesting…a few weeks ago, after the Sansa/Shae scene, most people here were more derogatory towards Shae than Sansa…though sadly, the reaction to both women was very negative. It was a tough situation for both of them, but I tend to try and find common ground with most characters. Also, a reminder to book fans that neither the Shae scene (at this point) or the Mordane scene last year were part of canon. It’s part of D&D’s streamlining the story.

    Even in the show characters aren’t as shallow as some critics make them out to be. Sure, Sansa doesn’t run or fight or embrace tomboy behaviors like her sister. But she’s able to pick herself off the floor whenever she’s beaten and repeat the lies that keep her alive…she even saves a man’s life. I just wish that more people would realize that there’s plenty of room between being a “passive victim” and a “badass ninja” but alas, fandom. We like to be polarized.

    Speaking of such, Nazi comparisons and hate mail are a great way to detract from any meaningful conversation and turn this into even more of a sideshow. Major props to wic.net mods; always enjoyed the site and I know this can’t be fun to moderate.

  347. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: la gente estaba muy triste por aqui

    y por aquí también! Espero que no cambien mucho su forma de jugar porque realmente me gusta y no porque esté Messi, eh? Me gusta mucho Andrés “niñito de su abuela” Iniesta ;)
    No sé qué es lo que yo prefiero pensar, francamente. Me sorprende que se haya desviado tanto el sentido de lo que quise decir. Pero en fin, tendré más cuidado la próxima vez… o no, si amerita. Gracias.

  348. Nilan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    A poster from the podcast of Ice and Fire amongst the multitude…

    Firstly, everything going on is free speech — both Larry’s review and those responses to it.

    Secondly, let’s be real here: the core reason this thread is so long has nothing to do with Larry, or Sansa, or any television show: it has to do with what people believe is the appropriate response to someone in a victimized position.

    Larry’s point that Sansa should sacrifice herself was over the top if you were looking at this in the real-world. But he DOES have a real-world point concerning Sansa — to turn a phrase, “The fire that burns the villain is the same that purges the hero: it is only fire”.

    Meaning: that Sansa suffers is cause for empathy, but IMO it is NOT cause to think of her as a hero, and the way in which she caused some of her own situation is part of the reason the character is disliked, especially when it is set against Arya. If Sansa’s suffering is heroic, the natural question is ‘does that not diminish Arya’?

    The question is not one of ‘feminine’ passivism and ‘masculine’ activism. The entire point of this story to me seems that the trait is associated with one’s sex by BOTH men and women, and that association is DUMB. Society long-ago got itself thinking that just because women on average lack a little physical upper-body strength that this translates into anything more than just that (and there’s a lot of women out there that can out-arm wrestle the average man). It’s just as stupid as it was to say that it was more “asian” to be good at math, or that if you were doing well in school that you “weren’t black enough”.

    THAT’S what’s going on. This isn’t about the supposed virtue of a suffering woman, it is about the supposed virtue of suffering, PERIOD. The virtue of self-pity. That Sansa is a young woman is beside the point.

    And what Larry says is that: it’s not a virtue. And I agree with that, and I do agree that what happens is that people begin to treat it as such. I do not agree that it makes Sansa evil, or that she deserves her treatment — and if Larry means any of that, I don’t agree.

    Sansa is in a horrible situation. She should look for a way out of it. If someone is in a position to help her, they should help her. It is not her fault. But does that suffering make her a hero? Is to be passive a virtue? What does that say about people who are active? That they should not bother?

  349. Del
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    LV,

    Perhaps you need to do a quick google search. Godwin’s Law has nothing to do with whether the comparison has merit or not. Merely that it inevitably comes up.

    However, I appreciate you “ineptly,” as you chose to put it, acting as if you knew what you were talking about.

  350. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    You missed Andy Greenwalds review this week! He cracks me up!

  351. Knurk
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    thank you for making this thread worth reading, because I was going nuts reading all the back and forth between the pro- and anti-Larrypeople. It’s almost like Larry is discussed like an actual episode itself.

  352. Rose
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Larry has the right to think however he likes.
    Larry has the right to feel whatever he feels.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he thinks.
    Larry has the right to express whatever he feels.

    Because he is an American.

    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot think differently than you.
    You do not have the right to tell him he cannot feel differently than you.

    Believing and saying otherwise makes you … Nazis.

    And THAT is how Nazis actually relate to this converstaion. Militant assholes trying their level best to brutally bulldoze anyone who doesn’t fit into their particular worldview.

    The “you”s of this site make me sick.

    What about the fact that Larry literally deletes comments of polite dissention on his facebook page? Does that make him American, or Nazi?

    I used to really like Larry, but after his handling of this situation, I won’t be watching his reviews anymore. Again, this has nothing to do with Sansa, but about his treatment of victims and his downplaying of the strength it takes to endure. I’m extremely bummed that instead of considering his words and wondering if he might have made the entire thing a little too personal, he’s lashed out and banned everyone who disagrees with him from his facebook. I’ve helped spread the word about Larry’s reviews since episode 1. Being told I’m not welcome in his reviews because I took issue with him bringing a sensitive real world issue into them?

    How is that free speech?

  353. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Josh:
    Sansa should not be compared to a Holocaust victim. Sansa is a political prisoner.

    Perhaps you’re right that this comparison should not be made. Yet the fact remains that no one called Larry a Nazi, they simply (whether correctly or incorrectly, whether they should or should not have done) drew a parallel between the mindset of these two kinds of victims. For pointing out to Larry that no one had called him a Nazi, and wondering if he had perhaps been mistaken about some of the things people were saying in their “hate mail” as well, I now find myself banned from commenting at Otaku Assemble and find all my comments deleted. Considering that people are defending Larry’s right to free speech and to express his opinion, I find this a bit ironic. He doesn’t seem interested in allowing others the same rights that folks are so keen to protect when it comes to him.

  354. Del
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Meg: I dont know if anyone said that it was entirely because Larry doesn’t like “women.” To me it seems like he doesn’t like weakness as a trait, in fictional and real life men or women. That’s why I think this particular attitude (not Larry as a person) is sexist because fearing weakness is a trait that tends to produce more subtle misogynistic attitudes–not hatred of “women” in this case but fear of weakness in men or women (femmephobia, homophobia, what have you). For example, he thought it was weak that Stannis didn’t fight Renly like a “real” man on the battlefield.Therefore it seemed like Stannis was less of a man in his eyes. He clearly has a strict model of manhood that he judges the characters against. Not necessarily a bad thing, but its probably good to re-examine the flaws in that model every once in a while.

    That’s a pretty fair outlook, and it’s certainly something to consider.

    I’ve gotten a different impression about a few others from what has been said, but I might have unfairly lumped everyone under that same blanket.

  355. Knurk
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Rose: I’m extremely bummed that instead of considering his words and wondering if he might have made the entire thing a little too personal, he’s lashed out and banned everyone who disagrees with him from his facebook. I’ve helped spread the word about Larry’s reviews since episode 1. Being told I’m not welcome in his reviews because I took issue with him bringing a sensitive real world issue into them?

    How is that free speech?

    ha, it’s Not-A-Blog all over again.

  356. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Nilan: Is to be passive a virtue?

    I can not keep quiet. Agree with you on some things but I don´t want to make value (?) judgments because I don´t identify with passivity and would be unfair and ignorant on my part to think I know what I´m talking about. When it comes to saving your own life nobody knows how will react. I think passivity is not something intrinsic to a person, something you’re born with but something imposed on a person by his/her circumstances so, would be tricky to state what passivity is. Is Sansa brave? I think it´s not a question that does justice to her. For Larry standards maybe not but I would say she´s strong in the way she was taught to be strong, ladylike and such (not very inspiring for an epic story, I know but not all the characters have to be the same).
    Now all I need is to start a Theon´s apology (I´m talking to you Elena Amici) ;)

  357. LordStarkington
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    I largely agree with Meg’s post you just quoted Del – in cast my previous post wasn’t clear, I think at least some of the sexism charges are because he favors the stereotypically male traits (fighters, physical confrontation etc). I’m sure there were also some nuts too but, hey, that’s the internet for you.

    Personally, as I’ve noted, I don’t think it has anything to do with disliking or hating women, I just think his POV is one where he likes the “big damn hero” type moments where there’s epic confrontation. Ignoring the Sansa bit, for example, there are his comments on Stannis/Renly. He does comment that fratricide is bad but goes in much greater length about how Stannis was wrong because he didn’t fight and kill Renly in battle and took the coward’s way out, essentially.

    I’ve watched many/most of Larry’s reviews and I’ve always gotten the impression his expectations are that there’s going to be a grand, mythical-scale, scope to things while I’ve always viewed ASOIAF/GOT as a more grounded story that happens to have a few mythical elements (admittedly if the Others really are the true “big bad” I will be wrong about that!).

    I didn’t see Larry talking about the Renly/Loras scene so I can’t comment on that (although I’m sort of curious now), but even with his cursing I felt the animosity was clearly towards whoever messaged him and not anything else. I’m pretty sure that if Larry read the books he’d probably like Sansa more (although I don’t think she’d ever be a character he really liked because of the kind of character she is).

  358. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Rose: What about the fact that Larry literally deletes comments of polite dissention on his facebook page?

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that more polite comments than just mine were deleted. It makes me sad. I have loved watching Larry’s reviews from the very start, am subscribed to his channel and almost always have his review watched before it gets posted here. Now I’m just not sure how much longer I’ll be watching his videos if this is the way he feels about opinions that differ from his.

  359. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Free speech doesn’t mean you can say what you want where ever you want. It means that on YOUR property you can say what you want when ever you want. I recommend reading The Ethics of Liberty and For A New Liberty both by Murray Rothbard.

  360. Del
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: I didn’t see Larry talking about the Renly/Loras scene so I can’t comment on that (although I’m sort of curious now), but even with his cursing I felt the animosity was clearly towards whoever messaged him and not anything else. I’m pretty sure that if Larry read the books he’d probably like Sansa more (although I don’t think she’d ever be a character he really liked because ofthe kind of character she is).

    I agreed with a lot of what you posted previously, I think you’ve been pretty clear. I’ve mentioned myself that I feel that it didn’t really have a place in his episode review.

    As to Renly/Loras: He avoided talking about the scene, with something along the lines of “I’m not going to talk about that.” However, he talks about Renly in later reviews and seems to actually like the character himself. Saying he’s homophobic would not really be accurate, as he doesn’t seem to have a problem with homosexual people, but saying he’s uncomfortable with homoeroticism would probably be an accurate thing to say.

    …I just realized how ridiculous it is to analyze this one guy who does video reviews this much. I think that’s the sign that this discussion has run its course for me, lol

  361. Breakspear
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: This sounds like a flawed interpretation of fantasy to me. Martin provided a world with strange weather changes, prophecies, dragons, direwolves, and some people with supernatural powers. But that doesn’t make the main characters, on the whole, any less human than us in this world. Their moral codes are tied into realism; the characters grapple with questions of power and loyalty and survival and etc. etc. in the same way that we might. Sansa’s abuse in King’s Landing has nothing to do with “fantasy.” There are no spells or enchantments involved.

    I always saw it as Martin writing about people, not cultures. Sure, there are some things we have to accept–a highly sexist society, a world where raping, murdering and pillaging runs rampant especially during war, and a place where relatively good people, self-sacrificing people, victimized children, and well-drawn characters we can relate to don’t always come out on top. I don’t think Martin is particularly taking a stand on anything he imposes on his characters. According to his interviews he always meant for us to feel for their situations, and he particularly feels kinship with all of his POVs. If he didn’t, then certainly we wouldn’t feel moved to sit here debating them.

    I believe you misinterpreted what I wrote. I wrote that “Martin keeps the human elements realistic.” These are the responses and desires a human would have in a set contingency, and the secondary emotions and beliefs that comes from these. Since the morality of the world Martin creates is based on this, the morality is different from what is moral in our society. Also in each society Martin writes about, the morality changes according to the contingencies of that society. An example is the take on slavery between Westeros and the societies in Essos. Another is infanticide above and below the wall. Like you said Martin does not have a particular stand on a specific type of morality in his writings, only the specific morals of the POV character. By definition that makes Martin morally relative because he acknowledges morals are different for each culture.

    Also what makes something fantasy is not just spells or enchantments like you describe. Another huge feature common in many fantasy novels is a self-coherent world, where magic and other fantasy elements are integrated into. In many cases this is a totally made up world.
    For example, our Westeros has distinct seasonal features that is very fantastical. This specific contingency has led to people who experience the hardships of many years of winter to develop a specific mindset, leading to different customs and morals which is very human. (Compare this to Inuit or Eskimo morality. You will find many common themes, and this is very different from for example, christian morals)

  362. Rose
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney: Yeah, I’ve noticed that more polite comments than just mine were deleted.It makes me sad.I have loved watching Larry’s reviews from the very start, am subscribed to his channel and almost always have his review watched before it gets posted here.Now I’m just not sure how much longer I’ll be watching his videos if this is the way he feels about opinions that differ from his.

    I completely understand deleting incendiary or rude comments — about half the ones posted on this page on BOTH sides deserve to be culled, to be honest — but shutting down polite disagreement and retreating to a defensive bunker?

    I hate how people are just making this into YOU’RE SO MAD OVER A FICTIONAL CHARACTER BEING CALLED NAMES. Again, I had ZERO problem with him saying that Sansa is a bitch who sold out her family, despite disagreeing. This is about his comments about victimhood and passivity, and now, his poor reaction to criticism that has really not been that harsh.

  363. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    What about the fact that Larry literally deletes comments of polite dissention on his facebook page? Does that make him American, or Nazi?

    It does make him either. It makes him a person who has control over his Facebook page and he can do as he pleases with it. What a ignorant question. I also question what you consider polite dissention considering you wrote this,

    Except that he actually said: I DO NOT LIKE VICTIMS. I THINK THAT VICTIMS ARE WEAK. THERE IS NOTHING ADMIRABLE ABOUT ENDURING HARDSHIP.

    As I wrote above he never said what you say he did.

  364. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Thank you very much:)
    I´m puzzled, though. I can not blame language this time. I truly don´t understand this thing with prohibited words.

  365. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Larry owns his Otaku facebook and it’s his call what he wants to delete or keep. Freedom of speech simply doesn’t apply in this scenario.

    I will say, I think the comparison to Viktor Frankl’s work is apt. I read that in high school, and Sansa’s responses do remind me of his descriptions. But yeah, pretty much any mention of anything to do with the Holocaust/Hitler/Nazis is going to inspire Godwin’s Law comments. It’s really just a joke- it doesn’t invalidate your point. :)

    Hey, there’s a new interview round-up posted. Some of you should check that out and see the Nonso Anozie interview. XaroSexualityGate?

  366. Meg
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Nilan: And what Larry says is that: it’s not a virtue.

    Nilan I like your points but isn’t declaring passivity in the face of aggression = not virtuous a type of victim-blaming? Larry attempts to make a point about tendency of the fanbase to sink into victimhood. I’m like okay, valid point, I can see that, it’s annoying sometimes. But it comes out all wrong and he ends up focusing it on the victim’s actions and his approval/disapproval of them. Or rather, her lack of action as a reason why he doesn’t like her. I have to disagree because 1) she DOES act, just in a typically feminine ladylike way, and 2) if femininity isn’t enough of a “lady’s armor” for him, then he leaves her with nothing. Oh, except suicide apparently.

  367. PatD
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán,I don’t FB, so I’m not sure how the filtering works for that app, but most other apps (blogs, Web sites, etc.) can filter comments based on “Tags” or cue words. It’s entirely possible he just added the word “Nazi” to a filtering string and your post was deleted without Larry even seeing it.

    Plus, I suspect he’s being deluged right now.

    Like I said upthread, he really doesn’t appear to be a bad person, just young and over zealous, at times. I like the flavor he brings to the diverse list of recap links, and I’m able to put a lot of what he says into perspective, so it just doesn’t rile me.

    On Topic: that’s a late-to-the-party write-up by The New Yorker, but it’s an excellent piece.

  368. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    I am astounded this is still going on…. and I realize (and am somewhat ashamed) that I had a hand in it…. all it proves IMO is that Larry Williams is extremely immature and refuses to listen to any and all opinions that differ from his own……. in fact he goes into rage-filled rants when told he is wrong…. it seems he suffers from a severe lack of introspection and a whole heap of insecurities (which is probably why he only allows praise to remain on his FB page)…. /end of my armchair psychology rant ;)

    is that type of person really worth all of this Sturm und Drang……????

    I for one am done giving this sad person any more space in my head…….. he means nothing to most of us in our daily lives…. I am letting this discussion die and will just try to avoid anything to do with him in the future…… some people thrive on attention (even negative attention)…. so IMO it’s best to avoid/ignore them….

  369. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    No that is not victim blaming. He simply said he isn’t going to just glorify a victim because they are a victim. That is a valid point. For example, say a mass murderer is a victim of kidnapping and torture. Should we glorify him simply because he is a victim in this particular situation? Granted, that is an extreme example that doesn’t directly apply to Sansa but I think it does illustrate the point. LW doesn’t like Sansa, he goes as far to say he hates her, so it should not be surprising that he doesn’t feel anything for her in her current situation. She is very low in his opinion so it will take something major for her to redeem herself which is why he thinks she should sacrifice herself to take out Joffrey. There is a big difference between not glorifying a victim just because they are a victim and blaming victims.

  370. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Glad you clarified that. I was under the assumption that you were a huge Larry fan.

  371. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    LOL just realized he was living in my head… rent free…..

  372. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Free speech doesn’t mean you can say what you want where ever you want. It means that on YOUR property you can say what you want when ever you want.

    Well, yes: it’s up to Larry how he wants to handle the Otaku Assemble page. I just got the impression (truly or falsely) that it’s a page to focus on his videos and other publicly shared creative work rather than his private Larry Williams page for friends and family, if you see what I mean. Accordingly, I would have thought that any reasoned response to his work written with non-inflammatory language that stays on-topic would be acceptable to post there.

    Anyway, clearly that’s not the case.

    If I want to respond to his videos, I already can’t do it on YouTube because he leaves comments closed to prevent people posting spoilers (which I completely understand; I wish people wouldn’t be such jerks as to spoil others)… and now I can’t post on the Otaku Assemble Facebook page either, so I guess that leaves here or Westeros, where there’s also a thread on his reviews. I do think it’s a shame that he’s not willing to leave some of the reasonable comments that disagree with him, but hey, that’s life.

    PatD:
    Siobhán,I don’t FB, so I’m not sure how the filtering works for that app, but most other apps (blogs, Web sites, etc.) can filter comments based on “Tags” or cue words. It’s entirely possible he just added the word “Nazi” to a filtering string and your post was deleted without Larry even seeing it.

    I don’t really know how these things work myself (I don’t use Facebook that much), but it wasn’t just that one comment that was deleted, it was another one that I’d put on his wall earlier that got a few likes as well, and now I can’t comment on the page at all. If there’s something that auto-bans/blocks people if they include such a word, I doubt that option’s active, as there are posts from people mocking or making fun of the word “Nazi” being mentioned and their posts are still there.

    Thanks for the thought anyway.

  373. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Weirwood:
    I am letting this discussion die

    Yeah, probably best if I do so too. I’ll give his reviews a few more chances, but for the time being I’ll leave off commenting on the last ones.

  374. OtakuASSEMBLE
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney,

    I messaged you on Facebook clearing that misunderstanding up.

  375. Dan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney,

    I’m not sure why you got banned from posting there. I have no idea how you worded your complaint. I do know that I also defended the original person who brought up the Nazi thing on his page and my comment is still there. I also saw someone critique his view on Sansa and that is still there. So I’m not sure how he decides to remove or ban. That doesn’t change my point though. I was saying that what he was doing has nothing to do with free speech.

  376. LV
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Del:
    LV,

    Perhaps you need to do a quick google search.Godwin’s Law has nothing to do with whether the comparison has merit or not.Merely that it inevitably comes up.

    However, I appreciate you “ineptly,” as you chose to put it, acting as if you knew what you were talking about.

    You are wrong – on the internet.

    I explained what Godwin’s Law is about, ie the increasing probability in online discussions of comparisons with the Nazis or Hitler.
    Afterwards, I pointed out that the comparison made in this threat (between the psychological ramifications of Sansa’s situation and the situation of certain Holocaust survivors) does not constitute an instance of the law, because nobody was compared to the Nazis or Hitler. Therefore, those who invoked the law as a means to discredit the allegedly “godwinning” poster(s), were wrong.
    Furthermore, they used Godwin’s Law in an inept way often encountered in online discussions: As a rhetoric device without merit as an argument.

    Go get some reading comprehension.

  377. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    LV: You are wrong – on the internet.I explained what Godwin’s Law is about, ie the increasing probability in online discussions of comparisons with the Nazis or Hitler.Afterwards, I pointed out that the comparison made in this threat (between the psychological ramifications of Sansa’s situation and the situation of certain Holocaust survivors) does not constitute an instance of the law, because nobody was compared to the Nazis or Hitler. Therefore, those who invoked the law as a means to discredit the alledgedly “Godwinning” poster(s), were wrong.Furthermore, they used Godwin’s Law in an inept way often encountered in online discussions: As a rhetoric device without merit as an argument.Go get some reading comprehension.

    Is this a good spot to point out this discussion has jumped the shark?

    And for the record I agree with you, her initial comparison was an intelligent and relevant one and not “Godwinning” at all.

  378. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: “Godwinning

    I promised myself not to come to this thread again but I´m weak and I really want to know. I´m sorry if it´s tiresome. I´m glad that you´ve understood (and LV) what Mike Chair and I meant. Could you, please, explain to me what “godwinning” means? I´m a little scared with words since yesterday.
    And I had to find what “jumped the shark” means, also and I agree.

  379. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    OtakuASSEMBLE:
    Siobhán Mooney,
    I messaged you on Facebook clearing that misunderstanding up.

    Oh, that’s great news! I don’t see any new messages there, no notifications in my message centre or via email or anything, so maybe you somehow messaged a different Siobhán… Regardless, I’m really relieved that it was a misunderstanding, and I appreciate you taking the time to contact me when you must be flooded with feedback. Thanks a lot. :-)

  380. Knurk
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    from Wiki:

    Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

    as many others have stated, you aren’t guilty of godwinning the discussion.

  381. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,
    Ok, godwinning would be to use an extreme argument that refers to an event of undeniable immorality? something like that? Yes, I´m all kinds of innocent then ;) This thing with language makes me crazy!!! Thanks again Knurk.

  382. purplejilly
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    When I first heard Godwin’s Law being invoked in the thread, I thought it had something to do with Godwin on True Blood – and at one point in history, he and Eric were pretend Nazis, or actual Nazis, or something. I can’t remember. Obviously I haven’t been around on the Internet arguing enough!

  383. Weirwood
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I think you mean Godric…. ;)

  384. andrea
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    hahahah I´m so dumb! Godwin ning! no god-winning. What happens to me? I´m off now, too embarrassing.

  385. WinterComing
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    chavalah:
    Interesting to note how some people are arguing that Larry might “grow out of” his shallow opinions about victims–isn’t that a valid argument concerning some of Sansa’s behaviors?

    What’s interesting to me is that,IIRC (I only watched the review once), in the rant itself Larry acknowledges that he used to have horrible traits that he grew out of.

    With Otakuassemble-type of reviews that’s always going to be a problem. His original appeal was that he was spontaneous but that also means there will be contradictions and ill-formed arguments in his statements. What’s sad is that people really just want him to keep doing this when it’s obvious that he’s not gonna be that excited over the series again (especially since someone spoiled book 3 for him). I wanna see him improve as a reviewer but I’m sure that’ll mean his views will take a hit.

  386. Del
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    LV,

    I don’t know in what world you live in that it does not relate to the Nazis. Perhaps you should follow your own advice, chum.

    If you’re going to point out people who were using it to discredit, might want to leave me out as a “response to.” It’s generally seen by a lot that the conversation has gone on way too long, nothing to do with “that point is invalid.”

    I note that others continue to misunderstand what Godwin’s Law is, and think that relevancy or merit has anything to do with it.

  387. chavalah
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    Nilan: Meaning: that Sansa suffers is cause for empathy, but IMO it is NOT cause to think of her as a hero, and the way in which she caused some of her own situation is part of the reason the character is disliked, especially when it is set against Arya. If Sansa’s suffering is heroic, the natural question is ‘does that not diminish Arya’?

    And what Larry says is that: it’s not a virtue. And I agree with that, and I do agree that what happens is that people begin to treat it as such. I do not agree that it makes Sansa evil, or that she deserves her treatment — and if Larry means any of that, I don’t agree.

    It’s all relative, though, isn’t it? Ned played a huge part in his own downfall as well, but he doesn’t get a fraction of the hate. This is about shallow character observances and first impressions gone haywire.

    As for Arya, certainly she’s a strong enough character in her own right to not be “diminished” by anyone else, just as Sansa shouldn’t be diminished by her. She’s not a two-dimensional victim. She’s taking steps to preserve her own life by putting on the courtesy armor; even Tyrion takes note of it. She’s even able to save another man’s life. If that’s not heroic, especially when Joffrey might have her beaten for insubordination, then I don’t know what is. (And this is just in the tv show, which has been lacking in Sansa’s character arc.)

    You write that activism doesn’t always have to be “masculine.” I think Sansa’s story proves that.

  388. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    andrea:
    hahahah I´m so dumb! Godwin ning! no god-winning. What happens to me? I´m off now, too embarrassing.

    That’s awesome, when I saw your confusion I thought you might have taken it that way. I think god-winning is what Melisandre’s trying to achieve.

  389. chavalah
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    WinterComing: With Otakuassemble-type of reviews that’s always going to be a problem. His original appeal was that he was spontaneous but that also means there will be contradictions and ill-formed arguments in his statements. What’s sad is that people really just want him to keep doing this when it’s obvious that he’s not gonna be that excited over the series again (especially since someone spoiled book 3 for him). I wanna see him improve as a reviewer but I’m sure that’ll mean his views will take a hit.

    It does seem like most people want our entertainment to be as provocative and in-your-face as possible. I was under the impression that Larry promised more rants because he was trying to up his viewership. I’m shocked he’s gone this far without being spoiled on book three, though it’s certainly a shame. Probably fits into the “provocative entertainment” factor as well, seeing how he’d react. ASOIAF fans certainly like to shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes. And I certainly agree that more thoughtful commentary would mean less hits for his page.

  390. A_S00
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Why is Myles McNutt writing as if he’s seen the 6th episode? Are they still sending out screeners to critics ahead of time?

  391. Nilan
    Posted May 1, 2012 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Nilan I like your points but isn’t declaring passivity in the face of aggression = not virtuous a type of victim-blaming?

    Absolutely not. Wait, let me re-phrase: in my opinion, absolutely not. I think it’s a very dire misunderstanding of passivity and activity.

    I make no distinction here of, say, a woman or a man having a strength and discipline to keep quiet when it is necessary and having to shoot someone when THAT is absolutely necessary. Is the former an example of Sansa?

    People have said that Sansa is merely doing what she was brought up to do. Were they and I reading the same book? Arya and Sansa DO come from the same family, right? And the Starks are pretty much as good as it gets for functional families in Westros high nobility.

    Passivity in the face of aggression is not just a one-note issue either, and goes beyond just passivity itself. Sansa turned to people she barely knew before her own family. She let stories of romance become more important to her than the actual people in her life and let them blind her to reality. It would be one thing if Sansa were from a household where this was drilled into her from youth, but Arya’s presence shows that it was not. Sansa was not brainwashed by her parents into her opinions: she held them freely.

    Larry attempts to make a point about tendency of the fanbase to sink into victimhood. I’m like okay, valid point, I can see that, it’s annoying sometimes. But it comes out all wrong and he ends up focusing it on the victim’s actions and his approval/disapproval of them. Or rather, her lack of action as a reason why he doesn’t like her. I have to disagree because 1) she DOES act, just in a typically feminine ladylike way, and 2) if femininity isn’t enough of a “lady’s armor” for him, then he leaves her with nothing. Oh, except suicide apparently.

    Larry made a poor choice of suggested options if this were a serious debate. For a character to fail to sacrifice their life is not much of a reason to dislike them… especially when, in the show, there WAS a point she was on the verge of doing just that, when she was thinking of pushing Geoffrey to his death at the end of season 1.

    That said, I can understand the hostility towards Sansa. I do not think of Sansa in terms of feminine weakness, but in terms of if she would be able to protect someone weaker than herself. I’m not sure she comes out favorable at this point in the story.

    We talk in terms of active and passive, weak and strong, victim and aggressors. In my experience, the strong and active are those who oppress those weaker than themselves, but strong and active are ALSO the ones who protect the same people. Those who are weak willed do not protect one another, be they man or woman. The weak mutually abandon one another to the strong. That’s not masculine or feminine, it’s a cross-gender concept.

    Remember that the most useful thing about thinking of one-self as a victim is that it removes you of all responsibility. This is why so many aggressors cast themselves as victims themselves and yeah: the Nazis were no exception. To hear them tell it, THEY were wronged, primarily by the French and the Jews. Someone ELSE started it: they were just defending themselves.

    Which is why I’m very suspicious of considering victimhood as a virtue. All it does is give those who are not victims even more incentive to cast themselves as misunderstood.

  392. Josh
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Is this a good spot to point out this discussion has jumped the shark?

    And for the record I agree with you, her initial comparison was an intelligent and relevant one and not “Godwinning” at all.

    It most definitely is haha…

    Though when I brought the word I really don’t feel like using anymore, it was after a poster called another poster..that word haha…I just don’t think it should be used in the discussion of a spazzy(like him or not, he’s a spaz haha) reviewer; whether you agree with what Larry says or not.

    So about reviews:

    So with what seems like more and more reviews coming out each episode, with new major publications jumping in on the GoT bandwagon, I wonder how that will affect not only GoT’s ratings but it’s Emmy chances. More and more are seeing that isn’t just “fantasy” and that it is on the same level as Mad Men and Homeland. Will that reach the Emmy voters ears?

    I still think next season(more or less the first half of Sword of Storms) will not only win over any critic who was against the show or has to yet review it, but will be the show’s best chance at Emmy(and a ratings overtake of True Blood..)

    So yeah major publications, keep them coming! Who are we missing? Why hasn’t The Reader’s Digest gotten in on the game. And Highlights. When I was in third grade, I would have loved if my Highlights magazine featured an article about an HBO show :p. The question is, how will they make sexposition educational?

  393. Meg
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Nilan, I’m sorry, I’m still not following you. You seem to demonize victimhood but engage in victim politics in your post by establishing rules on who gets to claim it. You focus on Sansa’s attributes for living in a fairy tale world and allying herself with her prince instead of her family. Yet, this is exactly what medieval society FORCES her to do, only she romanticizes it. To me it’s like making fun of women who wear too much make-up when, the social imperative for women is: wear a lot of make up or you’re a failure. That Arya sees through this ruse makes her perceptive but it also makes her femmephobic: just like most readers she sees no use for anything Sansa does. Second, what does this particular aspect of Sansa’s character have to do with being terrorized by Joffrey?

    We tend to probe her inner thoughts to find reasons for her hostage situation, and, honestly, I think some readers (not you) disturbingly do that to see if she “gets what she deserves.” Moreover, there always seems to be this reaction to characters in the book, where people want to point out “who had it worse than x.” They are establishing a cult of True Victimhood. By evaluating Sansa on whether she helps those that are weaker than her (which she does ), people grant victim status to whomever they see as more worthy, responsible, and innocent.

    In terms of IRL victimology, I agree w/ you. I understand wanting to use caution when using the term. In the political sphere, it’s used for posturing without really addressing actual injustice. However I don’t see what this point has to do with those who are asserting that Sansa is in a helpless situation so she handles it as best she can, in ways that are true to who she is.

    NOTE – If I seem a little too enthusiastic about this discussion its not because I’m trying to score points; this has actually got me thinking!

  394. purplejilly
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 4:45 am | Permalink

    Weirwood:
    purplejilly,

    I think you mean Godric…. ;)

    LOL – yes, I do – Godric, Godwin, all those old vampire names sound the same :)

  395. LV
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    Del:
    LV,

    I don’t know in what world you live in that it does not relate to the Nazis.Perhaps you should follow your own advice, chum.

    If you’re going to point out people who were using it to discredit, might want to leave me out as a “response to.”It’s generally seen by a lot that the conversation has gone on way too long, nothing to do with “that point is invalid.”

    I note that others continue to misunderstand what Godwin’s Law is, and think that relevancy or merit has anything to do with it.

    What exactly are you going on about?

    I explained what Godwin’s Law is about: Compraisons with the Nazis or Hitler. *check*
    I pointed out that comparing Sansa’s psychological experiences with those of certain KZ survivors is not an instance of Godwin’s Law. This is self-evident and your insinuation that it “relate[s] to the Nazis” is absurd because that kind of relation is not what Godwin’s Law is about: Nobody was compared to the Nazis or Hitler. *check*.
    I then argued that today many people in online discussions use Godwin’s Law to discredit other posts (‘You godwinned the discussion!’ You pulled a Godwin!’ Who godwinns loses!’ and so on) even though those posts do not fall under Godwin’s Law. *check*

    You are correct, Godwin’s Law itself is not about making an argument (or, better, being used as a rhetoric device). But people use it that way – even in cases (like this one) where it is not applicable. This is what I criticised.

  396. Eric Allen
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    Nilan, I’m sorry, I’m still not following you. You seem to demonize victimhood but engage in victim politics in your post by establishing rules on who gets to claim it. You focus on Sansa’s attributes for living in a fairy tale world and allying herself with her prince instead of her family. Yet, this is exactly what medieval society FORCES her to do, only she romanticizes it. To me it’s like making fun of women who wear too much make-up when, the social imperative for women is: wear a lot of make up or you’re a failure. That Arya sees through this ruse makes her perceptive but it also makes her femmephobic: just like most readers she sees no use for anything Sansa does. Second, what does this particular aspect of Sansa’s character have to do with being terrorized by Joffrey?

    We tend to probe her inner thoughts to find reasons for her hostage situation, and, honestly, I think some readers (not you) disturbingly do that to see if she “gets what she deserves.” Moreover, there always seems to be this reaction to characters in the book, where people want to point out “who had it worse than x.” They are establishing a cult of True Victimhood. By evaluating Sansa on whether she helps those that are weaker than her (which she does ), people grant victim status to whomever they see as more worthy, responsible, and innocent.

    In terms of IRL victimology, I agree w/ you. I understand wanting to use caution when using the term. In the political sphere, it’s used for posturing without really addressing actual injustice. However I don’t see what this point has to do with those who are asserting that Sansa is in a helpless situation so she handles it as best she can, in ways that are true to who she is.

    NOTE – If I seem a little too enthusiastic about this discussion its not because I’m trying to score points; this has actually got me thinking!

    This is by far the best post in this abortion of a thread.

    PS. Larry deserves his spot as a featured non-book-reader reviewer on WiCnet for as long as the show keeps running, and he keeps making reviews for the episodes. If you are offended by his tone or his style, don’t watch. For the rest of us, we’ll continue to eagerly await every single one of his reviews as they come out each week.

  397. tuntematon
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    So many things wrong here it makes my blood boil. First of all “godwins law” isnt even a logical fallacy sort, only someones opinion: “you mentioned nazis – so game over”. So it’s really silly going around internet acting if it’s an actual “law”.
    Second this political liberal “victim blaming” bs needs to stop. He’s not blaming anyone in the first place, get through you thick skulls that not liking something isnt the same blaming or hating(=going against); same obviously goes for renly-loras scene. And even if he were blaming, because he’d thought she was somehow responsible for her situation, I’d would be totally fine.

  398. purplejilly
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    i think this might be the most active recap thread we’ve ever had. FaB better hurry up with that retweet post!

  399. Nilan
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Nilan, I’m sorry, I’m still not following you. You seem to demonize victimhood but engage in victim politics in your post by establishing rules on who gets to claim it.

    I don’t see how I demonize victimhood, but yeah: I certainly opine on who gets it, and they are my own opinions and I believe others share them. There are actual victims, and I don’t believe in the nonsense of telling someone who got randomly punched in the head that they asked for it because they weren’t wearing a helmet walking down the street just in case.

    But if you don’t have some sort of ‘rules’ on victimhood — your terminology, not mine — then you have absurd scenarios that are even MORE likely, which are is those who oppress claiming they are victims of either the people they oppress, or someone else.

    You focus on Sansa’s attributes for living in a fairy tale world and allying herself with her prince instead of her family. Yet, this is exactly what medieval society FORCES her to do, only she romanticizes it.

    But Arya’s existance PROVES that she is not forced into it. What’s more, it’s clear there’s NOBODY particularly close to her that gets her to ally herself with her prince instead of her family. Who? Arya? Ned? Catelyn? Jon? The only people who have this sort of opinion are the Lannisters themselves. And what’s more, she BARELY KNOWS THEM. Not only has she only met them less than a year ago, but even in that time she hasn’t seen them nearly as often as her own family.

    I didn’t read that Sansa was forced to do anything, and in fact was living in a ‘society’ where she was expected to respect her family before her lord. In fact, even moreso than other Westros Royal Families, because she was brought up in the north.

    To me it’s like making fun of women who wear too much make-up when, the social imperative for women is: wear a lot of make up or you’re a failure. That Arya sees through this ruse makes her perceptive but it also makes her femmephobic: just like most readers she sees no use for anything Sansa does.

    So Arya is phobic of something that tells her to do something or she’s a failure? How about that maybe she just plain resents being told what to do? I don’t recall Arya being told or implied that she’s a failure by anyone for not wearing makeup or dresses except by largely Sansa herself. Presumably also Jeyne Poole and Septa Mordane. Catelyn I don’t think even implies this, and in the early chapters I don’t think it even crosses Princess Myrcella’s mind (though perhaps Arya or Sansa thinks it does). Certainly I don’t see Bran, Jon, Robb, Ned or even Theon doing anything of the sort.

    If Tywin Lannister (or even Mace Tyrell and Hoster Tully for that matter) were Lord of Winterfell, sure: he’d force or coerce Sansa into her gender role so she didn’t reflect badly on him. But Sansa is not the daughter of Tywin Lannister.

    Second, what does this particular aspect of Sansa’s character have to do with being terrorized by Joffrey?

    It’s one of the largest contributing factors on how she got into the position of being terrorized by Geoffrey. That is not to say she deserves to be terrorized by him or anyone else, but that the act of being terrorized is not a virtue and neither are the circumstances that got her there. Littlefinger, perhaps, ‘deserves’ to be terrorized by Geoffrey. But the fact that someone like Larry might say he does not think that passivity is a virtue and that Sansa is a hero is not equating her to Littlefinger or anyone else who would actually ‘deserve’ that treatment.

    We tend to probe her inner thoughts to find reasons for her hostage situation, and, honestly, I think some readers (not you) disturbingly do that to see if she “gets what she deserves.” Moreover, there always seems to be this reaction to characters in the book, where people want to point out “who had it worse than x.” They are establishing a cult of True Victimhood. By evaluating Sansa on whether she helps those that are weaker than her (which she does ), people grant victim status to whomever they see as more worthy, responsible, and innocent.

    I don’t know that I would agree with these readers, but people should have standards on what qualifies as a victim and what does not. Call it a cult if you wish, but whether it’s a cult or just plain having a set of standards… if you don’t have them, then you have Nazis crying to you that they just HAD to invade Poland because of that venomous treaty of Versailles.

    There there, Germany. There, there.

    Of COURSE we should evaluate. Of course we should have our own opinions on who is a victim and who is not. If people of like minds express their opinions and others might term that collective opinion to be a ‘cult’ — well then I say: so be it, O Brave New World.

    In terms of IRL victimology, I agree w/ you. I understand wanting to use caution when using the term. In the political sphere, it’s used for posturing without really addressing actual injustice. However I don’t see what this point has to do with those who are asserting that Sansa is in a helpless situation so she handles it as best she can, in ways that are true to who she is.

    It has to do with it because I only used politics as an example, and I used it mainly just because we were already discussing Nazis. I could have used serial killers and abusive parents as other examples. And it relates to the point because denying vicitmhood status to Nazis, serial killers and abusive parents when they inevitably claim it requires applying STANDARDS. Larry is doing the same to Sansa.

    Larry’s standards do not match your standards. They don’t match mine either. But then, I do see a certain line of thinking in Larry’s standards that is absent in others, which is judging Sansa based on what she did without pre-supposing anything more than what is seen. Sansa does NOT come from an abusive home. She faced no greater challenges than Arya did. In fact, she had more free agency to be who she was than Cersei did, or Margery did.

    I don’t view Sansa in the first book as a spiritual kindred with, say, Gilly. And I notice Larry says nothing of Gilly either, so perhaps some people should ask him about Gilly to make a contrast because I bet you nothing flat there would BE ONE. Gilly had literally no choice at all points of her life. Even in aCoK she has less agency than Sansa does, and has WAY less than Sansa in aGoT. And unlike Sansa, she really WAS brought up that way: there’s no Aryas in Craster’s Keep.

    Sansa is, for me, a spiritual kindred to Renly’s ‘knights of summer’, and in some ways to Renly himself. People who do not and will not see the world for what it is rather than what they would like it to be. And there’s all sorts of men and women like that.

    NOTE – If I seem a little too enthusiastic about this discussion its not because I’m trying to score points; this has actually got me thinking!

    In my opinion, that’s perfectly fine. If you meant this statement in a sort of apologetic way, I would say that, to go without saying, no direct or indirect apology is necessary. At all.

  400. Josh
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Nilan:
    Sansa is, for me, a spiritual kindred to Renly’s ‘knights of summer’, and in some ways to Renly himself. People who do not and will not see the world for what it is rather than what they would like it to be. And there’s all sorts of men and women like that.

    In my opinion, that’s perfectly fine. If you meant this statement in a sort of apologetic way, I would say that, to go without saying, no direct or indirect apology is necessary. At all.

    To be fair that’s hardly Sansa’s fault either. She was raised to be this kind of girl. Arya rebelled against it but Sansa didn’t. She tried to be the woman society and her parents wanted her to be. People forget that she’s just a child. Arya is a special case. Arya isn’t a very realistic character. But Sansa is. She’s a teenager, selfish and pouty but also molded by society. Exactly how many 14 year old girls see the world for what it is and not what they want it to be?

    As time goes on, she of begins to change…but it’s a slow go because when you’re stuck in a situation like that, you try desperately to hold onto what you know.

  401. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Holy shit, some of you are a tad bit wacked.

  402. Mike
    Posted May 2, 2012 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Tweets!

    For the love of all that is brevity — TWEETS!!!

  403. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted May 3, 2012 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Sansa killed Lady, Sansa killed Ned Stark, Sansa kept her sister from getting back at winterfell with her family, pushing her on a road that would turn her into a psycho killer. I understand how you can like her, she’s the one dooming those boring Stark and opening the way for more intersting families.

  404. LV
    Posted May 3, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan:
    Sansa killed Lady, Sansa killed Ned Stark, Sansa kept her sister from getting back at winterfell with her family, pushing her on a road that would turn her into a psycho killer. I understand how you can like her, she’s the one dooming those boring Stark and opening the way for more intersting families.

    Yeah.

    Why don’t you read the novels first and join the discussion afterwards?

  405. Maira
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    GrandmaFunk,

    If your mother got married to a man, sent away, became part of another family (from Tully to Stark) and did not see your family in years; If you knew that your wedding vows imply obedience to your husband; If you knew bethrotals are basically impossible to break… Would you speak against your future husband AND lord AND king of the Seven Kingdoms? Yeah, I guess everyone’s going to answer “oh, yes, I would. I’m very strong and courageous and I wouldn’t give a shit about titles, customs, or the proper social hierarchy”.

    Sansa’s been brought up as a lady of that time. People judge an 11 year old from almost medieval times as if she was a 90′s girl. If a daughter of mine lied to save her boyfriend instead of siding with her sister, I’d hate her for that. But this is Sansa Stark, who is going to belong to Joffrey Baratheon for the rest of her life. She’s been educated to avoid conflict between houses. That’s what political marriages were for. Sure, at that point she was a fairytale marriage, and she has reasons to believe arranged marriages can be happy (her parents love each other). So, of course she wants to please her betrothed.

    Again, I would call this behaviour treasonous in modern times. But not in Sansa’s time. If I sent my girl to be married hundreds of leagues away, and take for granted I might never see her again in years, of course I want her to be in good terms with her future husband. Cat is not a Tully, she’s a Stark. Sansa is not going to be a Stark, she’ll be a Baratheon. She might not see Arya in years. Once you are sent off, you belong to the other family (no wonder Cersei is furious about that).

    I know Arya is awesome. From our point of view. But from the characters’ point of view, Arya was the one who misbehaved, by getting out of her social position as a female; getting Mycah out of her social position as a butcher’s boy, and hitting Joffrey. Joff is a jerk. But Sansa cannot simply say “he’s a jerk, I won’t marry him”. She can only pray that he will not get mad at her. So she simply shuts up.

    Cowardly? Yes, Sansa Stark is a meek, 11-year old coward. If you’re taught “courtesy is a lady’s armor”, you’re doomed to be a coward. Courtesy doesn’t stop punches.

    In the series, Ladylike Sansa cannot be seen. Cat’s situation to compare to hers cannot be seen. Her manners or her education cannot be seen. You can understand why people who watch the series do not like the character. Without her “songbird” qualities, desire for harps and beauty, and naiveté, she’s far less understandable. And she was quite the annoying brat despite being understandable.

    You can also understand why readers don’t like Sansa. Victims aren’t cool, they aren’t empowering and they are uninspiring. What pisses me off is when people disregard the setting just to blame Sansa. Sansa behaves like a girl raised as a Sansa Stark in Westeros. She has reasons to do the things she does, and she certainly was not to blame for Lady’s death. I can’t see why she gets more blamed than Ned, Robert The Pussywhipped, Cersei or Joff. All of them had actual power to do something. Sansa was trying to stay betrothed. I don’t know why people act as if she could say “you hurt my little sister, I’m dumping you”. This is Westeros, people! Do I have to remind you what happens if you break a marriage vow? Seen in perspective, I respect Sansa more for shutting up.

  406. Maira
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan,

    Dude, you failed reading comprehension at school, didn’t you?

    I’d just like to know something:

    Ned goes to tell Cersei about the incest—> Cersei orders Lancel to poison Robert with fortified wine, resulting in —> Robert’s death.

    Ned is NOBLE.

    Sansa goes to ask Cersei leave to stay in King’s Landing —>Cersei (who has been told by Ned that she knows about the incest) milks her for information and takes her hostage —> all result in —> Ned’s death.

    Sansa is a traitor.

    Differences? Ned is a 35 year old man who at this points knows that Cersei betrayed Robert and, also at this point, knows that she had ordered the death of children like baby Barra. In Ned’s words “I don’t kill children”. He knew Cersei was dangerous.

    Sansa is a 12 year old taught to expect being sent off to a good marriage was the best possible outcome in her life. Women (like her own happily married mother) belong to the family they marry into. She doesn’t know Cersei kills people. She doesn’t know anything beyond songs, heraldry, embroidery and cutesy stuff. However she is called a traitor, despite the fact that from her point of view, it’s clear she knows nothing about what’s going on.

    This sort of double standard is what bothers me the most. It’s not that Sansa is disliked. She’s not Awesome, and rule of Awesome is what matters in fiction, she is written to be unlikable. However, not-being-awesome doesn’t make you guilty of treason. And if it does, then I’d like to know why Ed Stark, who made exactly the same mistake only with more information, gets away with it.

    I bet it’s because Ned has a king-sized sword. Swords are awesome.

    Sansa Stark has made me reject the notion of popular juries. People can assign likes or dislikes according to emotions, and that’s fine. But to assign guilt based on emotions, and to display different double standards despite the crime being the same, without even realizing that they’re applying a double standard… boy, does that scare me. Some people may be jurors some day, and they don’t even realize how flawed their judgment is.

    You can dislike or hate Sansa Stark, she doesn’t really exist. But she’s not guilty of treason because you don’t like her or because you hate her. She’s not worse than an almost-genocidal Tywin Lannister because she’s cheesy. She is annoying as hell, but has many redeeming qualities. It’s just that awesomeness is not one of them.

    Crime of Uncoolness, I guess.

  407. Maira
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Have we read the same books? Sansa is betrothed to Joffrey. Joff is going to be his family. Cat hasn’t seen the Tullys in YEARS. Cat is not a Tully, is a Stark. Sansa’s been brought up to belong to whatever family she’ll be sent to. Joff is meant to be her family, not Arya. Arya is awesome and Joff is a jerk, but no one knows that yet.

    Why do everyone apply their own modern concept of family to Sansa’s situation? Get in her shoes, she cannot choose whom she’s going to marry. Of course she wants someone pretty and in the best position possible. And once she’s betrothed and there’s no way back, of course she wants her future owner to like her. She cannot act as your daughter (I wouldn’t forgive a girl from our century who acted in the same way, context does matter).

    And I just can’t believe that people dismiss the betrothal as if it was unimportant. Joff is not a guy Sansa picked up at bar. Do I still have to remind people what happens in Westeros when a betrothal compromise is ignored? I just can’t believe she still gets crap for the Arya-Joff-Lady situation from readers post ASOS.

  408. Dan
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Maira,

    Ned went to Cersei and told her that he knew the truth about her because he wanted to save her and her kids life. That is what makes his decision noble. Had he waited for Robert to return and tell him the truth without confronting Cersei first then it would have resulted in the death of innocent children. So while he underestimated the depths that Cersei would be willing to go to stay in power, he made his decision for noble reasons.

    Comparing Ned trying to save children’s lives to Sansa trying to keep near her boyfriend is pretty far fetched. I fail to see this double standard you speak of.

  409. Amen-Ra Lumumba
    Posted May 11, 2012 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    While I do not agree with all of the things Larry Williams Opinions, especially his Sans Rant. I love his reviews. Its like when you read A game of thrones for the first time and you are trying to guess what is going to happen. You think things are going to happen the way they usually do, and they never turn out that way. Watching his reactions and his surprise brings me back to those moments. His reviews are so fresh and raw. One of the better reviewers if you ask me. After something really big happens I find that I can’t wait to see how Larry is going to react to that event on his Review.

  410. Allara
    Posted June 19, 2012 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    sansa is responsible for the death of the butchers son no forgivness for her lies. Just because she goes through hard ships doesn’t make her a good person. She is still treacherous. Larry basically said she didn’t deserve glory for being a victim. He didn’t attack victims he said they didn’t deserve glory yet people get angry over that.

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