Episode 16 – The Old Gods and the New – New Viewer Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

Daenerys in Qarth

After a slight delay, we bring you our non-book-reading recapper’s thoughts on Sunday night’s episode, “The Old Gods and the New.” Enjoy!

Spoiler note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask all the series veterans to refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or otherwise. This show is best viewed without knowing all the surprises beforehand, so please be respectful of your fellow fans. Thank you!

We Do Not Sow: It is a very slippery slope, from Theon’s smart ass remarks around the Starks, to trying to prove his worth to his father, and now hacking Rodrick’s head off like he was chopping wood. As tough as it was to watch Theon take Wintefell it was much worse seeing him butcher Rodrick. When the show started last year I thought both Jon and Theon were very interesting characters. Jon, the bastard son, always getting the evil eye from his father’s wife and Theon, the assigned son, to serve as a lesson and a reminder. The three boys seemed to grow up together and I’m sure formed a brotherly bond, and now all three of them are in such very different places. The line Bran stated “Theon, did you hate us all along?” was powerful. After the episode I thought of the Stark household, and how much things have fallen apart since Robert asked Ned to become the Hand of the King. It’s a shame and I feel like the kid with his eyes shut and peeking through his fingers…I’m not sure how much more the Starks can take!

Down in King’s Landing, all hell breaks loose and, in my house, laughter. Joffrey not only gets hit in the face with a cow pie but also gets bitch slapped again by Tyrion. We had been hearing about the whispers and the potential uprising from the city, and it was fun and pretty intense to see it take place. Especially when Sansa was running for her life. I have really grown to like the Hound. I considered him a Lannister henchman previously, but last season, he gave Sansa some words of wisdom about dealing with Joffrey and now he saved Sansa and really laid the smack down on those town people. In my mind, the Hound might be just playing his cards just like everyone else in King’s Landing.

Harrenhal might be my favorite storyline right now, I can’t believe the crazy situations, close calls and great characters that Arya has met on her journey. I would say you can’t even imagine those situations but George has and he wrote them down for all of us to enjoy. The conversations with Tywin and trying to hide from Littlefinger while she brings him wine are priceless. Tywin seems to be always asking her questions about her family and where she is from and I am worried she is going to slip up soon. Although he didn’t have much screen time, Jaqen is becoming a favorite of mine as well. Two kills down and one more to go, I wonder if she will give him a name she has been muttering before bed?

Over the Wall, Jon has found himself in a position he is very used to, where if he just followed the instructions his task would be done and headed back with his brothers from the Wall. I always find myself yelling at the screen for Jon to just do what he is told, but it probably wouldn’t be as much fun if that happened. Now he is stuck in the cold, just himself and the wildling prisoner. The only problem is she knows how to survive out there a lot better than he does.

Daenerys is going to end up getting help from the creepy guy from the House of the Undying. I think he took her dragons and now some sort of arrangement will be made. It might not be the best deal for Daenerys but if it gets her the dragons back and a boat I think she will take it. But as I am writing this she has basically lost all of her Dothraki followers and has no dragons so maybe she will accept the deal from Xaro. It can’t be the end of the dragons but then this show doesn’t play by the rules!


101 Comments

  1. Angel
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Those scenes in harrenhal have to be credited to D&D. Awesome performance by Arya and Tywin

  2. Choukai
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Even as a book reader I prefer the non book reader recaps and stay away from the other threads. Too many purists and whiners.
    This was one of my favourite episode of both series and seems to get better each week.

  3. Randy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    The scenes with Daenerys in Qarth felt like Alice in Wonderland.

  4. Elaine
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Choukai:
    Even as a book reader I prefer the non book reader recaps and stay away from the other threads. Too many purists and whiners.

    I feel the same way. I’d like to just enjoy the show as a show, not read complaints about how this or that didn’t happen in the books.

  5. Paul Plutt
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    It doesnt seem there are that many non-bookreaders visiting this site anymore…

  6. Dorkmaster Flek
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Elaine: I feel the same way. I’d like to just enjoy the show as a show, not read complaints about how this or that didn’t happen in the books.

    Agreed! As a book reader, I’m interested to see how they’ll reconcile the eventual differences when they come to a head, but having Tywin in Harrenhal has been much more interesting for Arya, and the hide-and-seek with Littlefinger was priceless. I was initially surprised at the theft of the dragons (that did not happen in the books) but I think that gives Daenerys a better reason to visit the warlocks, if indeed they are the ones who stole them. It looked that way, though it was hard to tell for sure.

    I’m also happy to find out that I was pronouncing both Brienne and Ygritte the same as the show all this time. Now I don’t have to get used to a different sounding name for characters I already know (*cough* Yara *cough*).

  7. New Wolf
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    I think this is the best episode yet. Yes, better than Garden of Bones, better than Baelor and Fire and Blood. Why? Well, because every scene had me standing on the edge of my seat. This is one of the most eventful and action packed episodes yet. But what really made it great was the emotional journey of the characters and character development.
    They didn’t even give us time to settle in with that beginning and I love it! I didn’t expect Theon’s attack so soon, it really surprised me. I always knew Alfie Allen was a good actor, but now I know he’s a really great actor. The look on his face when he killed Rodrick sent chills down my spine. He’s really torn apart inside but he always chooses to side with the Iron Islanders. But you can still see he has respect for Bran. The way he sat on his bed and kind of asked him to give him the title of Lord of Winterfell… Conquerors aren’t usually so polite.
    Isaac Wright was also at the top of his game. My heart broke while he screamed during Rodrick’s beheading. I’m so glad Osha got them out of there! I love the women on this show. Westeros is a man’s world but they sure know how to manipulate them.
    And that brings me to Ygritte ( I hope I spelled it right). Just when I started to think that Jon’s story is getting boring they bring in a great new character to keep him company. I already love her! And I love the fact that Jon has his own story now. That he’s not following orders and doing what everyone else does in the Nights Watch. This is much more exciting. I hope she sticks around.
    The riot in King’s Landing was really great. I am so glad Tyrion slapped Joffrey again! We all know that kid is evil, but what is even more dangerous, he’s really, really stupid. I’m glad Sansa is ok; I was terrified, I really thought she was going to get raped. But the Hound saved her! I hope we get more of him, he’s a really interesting character. He seems frightening and scary but I think he has a good heart. And I think he doesn’t like Joffrey (which is always a plus, of course). And now after the riot, I’m curious what will the situation in King’s Landing be like. Was this a one time thing or will the riots continue?
    The scenes with Arya and Tywin are so fun to watch. I think he started to care for her and he really seems to enjoy their talks. And Arya uses that to her advantage. She’s really clever. When Littlefinger came, my heart stopped! I think he noticed her and I think he knows who she is but I have no idea what’s he going to do with that information. He’s unpredictable. And once again I have to compliment Maisie for her acting in that scene. She’s perfect. And I loved the scene with Jaqen. It involved murder but it was kinda light hearted and really fun to watch.
    The situation with Dany is really getting interesting. I love when her inner fierce Targaeryen starts to show. It seems like we’ll visit the House of the Undying soon and I can’t wait! That guy from the fifth episode really seemed interesting. And I’m sure she’ll get her dragons back, she has to! Now I really want to know how many of her Dothraki tribe is still alive. It seems like they killed almost all of them.

    Lastly, I have a question for you guys. Do you know any other sites where non book readers can discuss the show? Because I don’t really like reading recaps of book readers. They often contain spoilers and usually bitch about the differences from the books which annoys me. There are exceptions though (for example, reviews from IGN and Huffington Post are really good). I would love it if there was a forum or something like that for us who haven’t read the books.

  8. Daniel
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I’m a book reader, but I really love this show. So far I’ve really loved the changes, obviously there are always a few things you can’t really agree on. But they are minor details, to me as long as the characters are were they are supposed to be on their individual journeys, I’m quite content. Big big applause to the series creators for bringing these amazing books the screen, I don’t think people quite know how hard it is.

    Anyway overall amazing episode, with only a few nitpicks:

    All of Winterfell, Theon and Bran was amazing. The death of Rodrik was probably the most memorable and hard to watch aside from Ned so far. And I agree Alfie Allen’s performance and the look on his face after having killed him was astonishing, so intense and insane.

    Arya and the Littlefinger scene, just wow another intense moment. Couldn’t stop holding my breath. One of the best newly added scenes not in the books.

    The introduction of Ygritte and Halfhands little speach to Jon was great, thought the rest of Jon this episode was pretty bland.

    I still haven’t warmed up to Dany and Quarth this season. I feel like the writing in her scenes are not on the same level as the rest of the show. I’m not really enjoying her storyline all that much.

    The chemistry between Robb and Talisa this episode was very adorable and charming. Loved it.

    The killing of Armory Lorch was poorly handled though I thought so rushed and the dart thing seemed kinda easy and cheap to pull off, not at all on the same level as when The Tickler got killed.

    The riot at King’s Landing, The Hound saving Sansa and another bitch slap from Tyrion to Joffrey. The best in the whole episode. Amazingly done.

    But all in all another great episode.

  9. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    New Wolf,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and comments here!

    So, you mean apart from these threads? :) I don’t know how safe the comment sections are there, but in the Recap Round-Up posts Sue collects the non-reader category recaps each week as well.

  10. Delta1212
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    New Wolf,

    http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3204374

    There you go. Thread in the Television Without Pity boards for non-readers to discuss the show. Book readers aren’t allowed to post in the thread at all upon pain of banning.

  11. daprosinik
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    Indeed non-reader reviews are much better, getting tired of purists and their silly complains.

  12. Anna Purrington Adams
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Hey everyone. So happy to have found this site. Love the books, love the show, and the Sunday’s episode had me literally in tears three different times. Wow.

  13. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    For some reason that image of Dany reminds me of Marge nagging Homer to take out the trash.

  14. Flow101
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    I really loved the episode overall , but I still have some minor complaints.

    Daenerys seemed like a spoiled brat in this episode. I mean can someone explain to me why should the “second most richest man in Qarth” give her ships just because she wants them? And her threats are also becoming quite repetitive. I really don’t like her story so far in this second season.

    My other complaint was how forced some scenes were. First they don’t show Theon attacking or infiltrating Winterfelll, it seemed like he just took over without any trouble at all.
    And the way Jaquen killed the guy so fast, I mean he just finished talking with Arya, and out of nowhere he catches up with the guard and kills him. Seemed just too unreal.

    But again apart from those, I really enjoyed the episode.

  15. vanderhook
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Paul Plutt:
    It doesnt seem there are that many non-bookreaders visiting this site anymore…

    I think that’s because most people who got really invested in the show last season have become bookreaders. I know thats the case for me and all of my friends.

  16. Jeremy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    New Wolf, some good non-reader communities are the Game of Thrones Newbies review at The A.V. Club and Alan Sepinwall’s review at Hitfix.

  17. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    For all those complaining about Dany you have to realize she spent her entire life being raised by Viserys, he’s a spoiled brat who thinks he’s entitled to everything so it’s no wonder some of his personality will have rubbed off on her.

  18. Remaal
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    New Wolf,

    CHUD has a very good spoiler free thread:

    http://www.chud.com/community/t/142824/game-of-thrones-season-2-throne-harder-spoiler-free

    Neogaf also has a “No book spoilers” thread on their forum:

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=467562

  19. Flow101
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    The Kingslayer:
    For all those complaining about Dany you have to realize she spent her entire life being raised by Viserys, he’s a spoiled brat who thinks he’s entitled to everything so it’s no wonder some of his personality will have rubbed off on her.

    Then you agree that she is spoiled correct?
    You can try and give her a pass with those excuses, but at the end of the day, she is acting like a spoiled brat.

  20. New Wolf
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar, Delta 1212, Jeremy and Remaal – thank you.

    And about Dany… I don’t think she’s a spoiled brat. If she was, she wouldn’t be alive right now. I think she’s just inexperienced and young. Most of the stuff she knows about is the stuff her brother told her. So all in all she turned out pretty good, in my opinion. She has a lot to learn, that’s for sure. I think Jorah is a good influence on her and I hope she follows his advice.

  21. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Flow101,

    You also have to understand that she has no real power. She is trying to accomplish something enormous without anything tangible to bargain with (aside from her dragons, and that is understandably out of the question.)

    He two major influences have been her half-mad, self-entitled brother, and her fearsome, take-what-I-want husband. Neither of those strategies will work for a woman in Dany’s situation, but aside from letting herself go back to being a doormat, it’s all she knows.

  22. Derp
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Great episode.

    I always thought Theon, at least as the HBO series portrays him (can’t comment on the books), was kind of an annoying, immature, two-dimensional character. His storyline is a bit cliche. I’m now very much looking forward to the possibility of Robb personally taking his head just like Theon took Rodrick’s. On a related note, does the series have to kill off EVERY badass character I like? At this rate, I feel like they’re going to run out of people I care about! I’ll be very upset if Meister Lewin is next!

    But speaking of badass, how about the Hound’s rescue of Sansa? It was obvious that he would be the one to save her, but still…wow. His protective instincts for Sansa are intriguing, much like Osha’s motherly relationship with Bran. And Joffrey getting manure in the face AND slapped around by Tyrion? Priceless.

    On the other hand, Jon’s scenes dragged a bit this week. I feel like they could have been condensed, but I suppose they’re making up for his lack of screen time in recent episodes. At any rate, I look forward to how things will develop with the addition of Ygritte.

    Also, glad to see Dany’s storyline this season is finally getting interesting. For such a clever and ambitious girl, she really is quite naive, entitled, and foolishly stubborn at times. I feel like she’s made the same stump speech over and over. Excited to see what happens with the creepy warlock guy, who I assume is involved in the dragon-napping.

    And of course, can’t wait to see what happens with Arya. Who will be her #3? Tywin definitely suspects something (fantastic acting in their interactions, btw), and I’m very curious to see how Littlefinger is going to play this development to his own advantage.

  23. Udi
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Love the nbr (non- book reader) threads. Always a kick to hear their take on what happened in the show, especially after the WTF moments like Ned’s execution, the birth of the dragons, the shadow baby, etc.
    Like I mentioned in a previous thread, I too dislike Dany’s scenes in S2. They are just quite annoying. But without spoiling anything for you non-book-readers, it will get better, promise.
    Piece of (old but always relevant) advice to you: If you don’t want to be spoiled, avoid the threads altogether. If you just can’t help it, then the good posters above have some supposedly spoiler-free sites you can check out. Glad to have you on board and hope you will eventually read the books – they are THAT good!

  24. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    This one started watching the show last season and then read the books, so fell in love with the stories and characters of the show first. Also find it tedious to read complaints regarding the adaptation as there is so much in the show to love. It is clear that D&D and GRRM have consulted on major plot points and it seems major things all make sense in the grand scheme of things…of course nobody knows what will happen after the current book plot lines anyway. This one finds it exhilarating to see the show each week, knowing there will be surprises and some of the best acting on tv make it riveting. There will be no spoilers from this one.

    A few comments re: this episode.

    Along with many others who have commented, tears emerged when watching the execution of Ser Rodrik amidst the plaintive wails of Bran and Rickon and others in the courtyard. Theon’s decision to go with through with this brutal and excessive act in order to impress his rabble of Ironmen showed he has crossed a terrible line now, yet his expression after shows that he is slightly conflicted still. Osha’s moves were interesting, trying to improve her position with Theon but using that to save the young boys she clearly has come to care for enough to risk her life against heavily armed men. This took major balls, and this risk has not been mentioned much in many reviews. Osha had the advantage of inside knowledge of the castle and of Theon’s character and made the best of both in order to pull off a stunning escape. The look on her face after slicing through the throat of the guard was total NINJA badass warrior woman. Natalie Tena has taken a minor role and given us a Major woman hero to route for now. LOVE. A few have complained about the robe-drop, but if you think about it, this was totally calculated to distract and exhaust Theon, and she KNEW he would fall for it.

    Arya’s story is endlessly fascinating, and Maisie is nailing it. Last year I thought Emilia Clark should get an Emmy for the great transformation she showed us from frightened child to khaleesi, but this year it’s Maisie Williams who’s driving her story and holding her own with the best actors around. Bravo Maisie! This one is pleased to see that her beloved Jaqen is well received by viewers…his facial expression when Arya said “NOW” was precious. Wish I knew how to make a .gif thing on that! A bit of humor is refreshing amidst the grim world that is Westeros. But is Jaqen pushing his luck? Is Arya?

    The riot in KL was well choreographed and terrifying, building on the previous week’s scene where Tyrion sees the unrest in the city for the apparent first time. This one was stomping her feet yelling at the TV as Sansa was cornered, and clapping with joy as the Hound showed that he may be the only TRUE KNIGHT in Kings Landing. Scary dude with a heart under the armor. SanSan lives. And the little bird learns that outside the cage, the world is treacherous, as bad as inside the cage. Sansa is getting “all growed up.” And anytime Tyrion gets to slap Joffrey…good times.

    Jon Snow’s story gets better and better. The Halfhand hasn’t shown us his hand, but has shown clearly that he is the man to know beyond the wall. He sees that Snow is truly a child with a sword, and he’ll have to grow up fast in this harsh wilderness if he is to survive. This one loved his advice to Jon, seems many don’t like the actor, but he nailed it. Ygritte ‘s debut was fabulous, as she soon saw that using her womanly wiles would help her live another day. Her smirk was priceless. Gets better and better.

    Why King Robb is never lit very well is a big mystery to me. He’s one of the most attractive cast members, yet he can’t get a well-lit close up now and then? Come on D&D, you’re wasting a natural resource by depriving the ladies of a good shot of the hotness. Are you afraid we’ll like him too much? The last shot where we got a really well-lit view of our young King In The North was when he just found out Ned was killed and was hacking at a tree with his sword. A young Richard Burton is what I saw there, and you leave him in darkness or shadow too much. Show the face please, we want to see it not just for the beauty, but to better know his thoughts. The eyes are the windows to the soul. It is known.

    The jury is out on Lady Talisa, is she a “true Lady” as Sansa would say? Or a spy for the Lannisers? Cat’s look to Rob after meeting Talisa said a thousand words. Cat ‘s also 100% awesome IMO.

    The fact that Dany resorts to the screaming about Fire and Blood when she doesn’t get her way is getting old. Didn’t she learn with Drogo that you get more flies with honey than vinegar? It seems only logical that somebody would steal the dragons, and this looks like an inside job. This added some excitement to the Qarth world, and I cannot wait to see how this plays out. Dany needs to learn the art of diplomacy sooner rather than later. So sad to see Irri go, she always had a word of Dothraki wisdom to offer.

    Dany, all the Starks, and even the royalty in Kings Landing learned this episode that they are in danger 24/7. Watch your back. Stay sharp if you want to survive. Words to live by. It is known.

  25. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Flow101,

    To an extent I suppose but put yourself in her shoes. She wouldn’t have much success trying to sweet talk people into handing over fleets or armies.

  26. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Paul Plutt: It doesnt seem there are that many non-bookreaders visiting this site anymore…

    Which could mean that the vast majority of people who are into this show enough to seek out websites like this have decided to break down and read the books.

  27. oh-bb
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    I will never understand why websites don’t employ proofreaders. :/ Really throws me off when I read transposed letters and weird errors.

    Be interesting to see Arya’s final name and how the NBR-contingent feels about that.

  28. bk753
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Random thoughts from a non-book reader…

    Petyr Baelish is an exceptional character, and I really enjoy him. “A grasper from a minor house with a major talent for befriending powerful men…” Often slippery, always conniving, ALWAYS looking to turn the situation into a political or financial gain for himself. I feel sure that he recognized Arya… he’s just deciding how to spin this into a positive for himself… I have no doubt he will, one way or the other.

    Dany is treading on dangerous ground… (was I the only one to assume her dragons were immediately at risk?). She now possesses little to barter with, except a name which doesn’t hold sway in Qarth. Making demands without the power of mature dragons to back her up, seems very impetuous, and childishly spoiled. I’m not sure whether or not she can truly trust Xaro Xhoan Daxos, but passing on his marriage proposal certainly looks like a poor move in hindsight.

    Theon is starting to compete with Joffrey for the title of “character I most want to see dead.” He’s always been a sleezy little snot, but his betrayal of Robb Stark has taken him to new depths of loathing for me. Head on a spike!

    The scenes in Harranhall are great, and so well written and done. Tywin, aching for his captured son… holds the ultimate “get out of jail free” card with Arya and doesn’t know it. Priceless!

    I have absolutely no idea how ANY of this ends…

  29. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb:
    I will never understand why websites don’t employ proofreaders. :/ Really throws me off when I read transposed letters and weird errors.

    Be interesting to see Arya’s final name and how the NBR-contingent feels about that.

    Sorry about that, I copy-edited this before having my coffee this morning. Bad idea! I think I fixed the errors you are talking about, but if you spot any others, just let me know. Thanks!

  30. outlaw_moon
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Hi all,

    I have been lurking around here for a long long time and finally decided to join in and comment. Have not read the books but loving the show.

    Like many here, I am loving Arya’s journey the most. Because she is coming across great characters. But something has been picking at me that I want to mention between Arya and Tywin. I might have missed this but I believe I have not. Tywin has been asking Arya about her origin and family, but he has not asked about her name? He keeps calling her “girl”, if he was so interested in her then wouldn’t the first thing to ask be her name? I know it is minor and in no way takes away from the show. I just find it to be a weak point in their relationship. Hard to see how they missed that detail out.

  31. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Hey guys,

    New here, just bought the first book so I can start reading it this summer after the show ends. I can understand all the Theon hate, but if put in his situation, could you say you’d do any different?

    He really is literally caught right in the middle of an awful situation. I really don’t hate him at all. In fact, I’d say he is one of my favorite characters on the show. You want to hate him for betraying the Starks, who by all accounts treated him well over all those years. But you have to realize that while they treated him well, he was never really one of them. For most of last season, I felt that that must have been even worse than just not being respected at all. He was treated like a Stark, but always told that he was not one. I really can’t blame him for wanting to prove allegiance to people who would not deny that he was ONE of them. He IS an iron islander, and while they may treat him like crap because he hasn’t proven his worth to them, they do not deny that he is one of them. While the Starks treated him well, he was never going to be accepted as a Stark.

    Best storyline, in my opinion. Hope to see Theon become an even more major player as the series progresses.

  32. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Flow101:

    My other complaint was how forced some scenes were.First they don’t show Theon attacking or infiltrating Winterfelll, it seemed like he just took over without any trouble at all.
    And the way Jaquen killed the guy so fast, I mean he just finished talking with Arya, and out of nowhere he catches up with the guard and kills him.Seemed just too unreal.

    But again apart from those, I really enjoyed the episode.

    The reason they don’t show Theon have any trouble taking Winterfell is because he didn’t have any trouble taking Winterfell. Last episode hinted that all of Winterfell’s forces were away trying to retake Torrhen’s Square, so Theon snuck in and met no resistance.
    And Jaqen is supposed to seem unreal and mysterious. There have been a couple little hints that he seems to be able to get places quickly somehow.
    I really loved this episode. The opening sequence is definitely some of the most powerful work the show has done. Coming from a book-reader, I REALLY loved this episode. Much like some here have said, I kinda grow tired of the reader re-caps because of all the complainers. I’ve seen the show and book as separate since the beginning and have loved them both because of it.
    My one complaint about this episode though, is the writing in Dany’s scene. Just like in Garden of Bones the writing in her scene just felt… poor, not because it was different from the books but because it just feels poorly-written. Hopefully Vanessa Taylor can get a better grasp of writing Dany’s scenes because otherwise she’s done a great job with the rest of the characters.

  33. bk753
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!,

    Couldn’t disagree more. Men are judged by their word and their honor, and in the Season One scene where Robb was hailed as “King of the North,” Theon was right there, pledging his loyalty to his least breath. He asked Robb “do you consider me your brother?” and Robb said “yes.” He swore to serve him faithfully and then attacked Robb’s home and family when they were most vulnerable, instead of protecting them as he pledged.

    He went “home” … as an emissary of a family that accepted, trusted, and needed him… and he betrayed them in the worst possible way… sneaking into their home with a team of raiders and taking everything from them. He is a bigger low-life than Joffrey, who doesn’t know any better than to BE the craphound he is. Theon knows better and mercilessly sold out his friends and “family” to win the respect of a coldhearted father who gave him away, a sister he doesn’t know or recognize, and countrymen that mean little to him.

    Total dirtbag… can’t even behead a man properly. Took him 3 or 4 whacks of poor Rodrick. Theon Greyjoy deserves to die screaming…

  34. SeVv
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    bk753,

    “Theon acts how he is as he grew up happy and among his brothers, but then he was stolen from his home and his brothers were killed. And then the man who did this to him tried to make him his own son, raising him amongst his other sons. This made him want to be like them, but he was always jealous because he wasn’t one of them, no matter what.

    Then he returns to his father he loved as a child but is uncertain of because he feels that he allowed him to be stolen, after his adopted father dies, leaving him without a guiding figure to turn to and he’s called a failure because he’s a Stark now. So he tries to go to his father and become both, helping his “brother” Robb by furthering the Grejoy cause.

    But then this father he’s loved screws him because he tells him to attack his old family. And he can’t escape. He can’t go home to Robb because Robb will have no use for him; he’s not a Stark and he feels unwanted there, especially by Cat. And he can’t order his men not to attack the North of they’ll end up killing him.

    He just wants to belong and feel loved and be someone, therefore he has to prove himself. And he hates the Starks because he loved them so much; he’s jealous of them. He wants to be Lord Stark. But he’s not. He’s Prince Greyjoy. Therefore he turns his jealousy against them and makes it bitter. It’s a hollow victory for him when he siezes Winterfell as he’s really play acting at being a Stark, lord of Winterfell. It’s ironic that rather than love him as he wants, he succeeds only in the people turning against him.

    In a way it’s rather a reversal of the motto “if you can’t beat them join them”. If you can’t join them, beat them, be better than them, you don’t need them Theon. You’re Prince Theon Greyjoy, a Greyjoy. “It’s important to know your name”

    This *beep* up story is why Theon is such an amazing character. He’s literally in a catch-22 situation where nothing he does can be right and he’s in a hole which he can’t dig himself out of so he keeps digging for Austrailia for the hell of it.”

    This is written from Theon’s perspective, so please don’t point out that he wasn’t stolen as that’s really a matter of whether you view parents as “owners” to give him away or “guardians” to protect and defend Theon and only make him do something when it’s for his own good.

  35. goober
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    vanderhook: I think that’s because most people who got really invested in the show last season have become bookreaders. I know thats the case for me and all of my friends.

    can i get an amen.or an harumph will do.

  36. No Raven For You!
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Another non-book reader (still).
    Theon Rules!,

    I go with bk753 on this one – ALL the Greyjoys: heads, spikes, walls.

    The only way that Theon could ‘become an even more major player’ is if he resolved his family / daddy issues and became a self directed person, instead of being jerked around by his father and sister. I just don’t see that happening. Every time his family of parasite pirates demeans him, Theon feels that he needs to work just a little harder to please them, as if they will ever give a shit about him. NOTHING that Theon can ever do will be good enough for these asshats. He is ‘truly lost’, never to be accepted by Balon because the Starks corrupted him, and now he has turned his back on his adopted family.

    The riot scene in KL was sort of disconcerting. Great that Joff got hit with cow shit (and then by THE Hand – reminding me of the old saying that ‘the King gets hit by shits and the Hand slaps’), but the ‘angry crowd’ then devolved into a zombie horde? I was having a very Walking Dead moment there when one of the fat characters went down, but then they hold up an arm because they are literally ripping him to pieces?!? Wow.

  37. Wes
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    No Raven For You!:

    The riot scene in KL was sort of disconcerting. Great that Joff got hit with cow shit (and then by THE Hand – reminding me of the old saying that ‘the King gets hit by shits and the Hand slaps’), but the ‘angry crowd’ then devolved into a zombie horde? I was having a very Walking Dead moment there when one of the fat characters went down, but then they hold up an arm because they are literally ripping him to pieces?!? Wow.

    Starving men take a hard view of priests too fat to walk.

  38. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    This whole debate really just displays one of the show’s biggest strengths. I feel like every character (except for maybe Joffrey) has people who like and respect them, as well people who can find something they dislike about them. While I love Theon’s character, I honestly can’t stand Jon Snow.

    Honestly, Tywin’s another character I’m surprised people hate so much. He has never done anything particularly harsh/unspeakable. He just seems to be fighting to keep his family at the top, and it just so happens his grandson is an idiot. But after he saved the prisoners, and the way he is treating Arya, it has made me realize he’s not totally ruthless. Just doing what he has to for his family’s name.

  39. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Ya I agree about Tywin, ruthless is definitely not the word to describe him. I call him effective, or efficient, as well as extremely proud.

  40. The Red Viper
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader, I completely understand why Dany’s story has changed so much. When reading aCoK, I was tempted to just skip her chapters because they were quite boring. Having the dragons stolen makes the story far more interesting and far less complex than explaining Dany’s visit and interactions with the warlocks at the House of Undying.

    And even with the changes, her story still isn’t that interesting. The reason is simple; in the books and in the show- Dany comes off as an arrogant person who demands a lot due to her bloodline but not very knowledgeable of it and of the Westerosi. Which is perfectly understandable (Viserys told her everything she knows) because GRRM made all his characters have a good side and a bad side.

  41. No Raven For You!
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: Tywin… has never done anything particularly harsh/unspeakable.

    Didn’t he order the killing of the Targaryen children after KL was taken during Robert’s Rebellion? I have spoiler-blocked it because I can’t recall it specifically from the show and may have picked that info up inadvertently outside of the four sides of my TV screen.

    As for your larger point – agree! Even ruthlessly efficient (see? we CAN all get along on WiC!) Tywin has things about his character I like. The fact that Charles Dance is just killing it in the role helps a lot. Hell, I think a reasonable argument could be made that Stannis the Grammar Nazi would make a better king than Joffrey. Actually ANYONE except Joffrey — he is The Devil. Pain Train comin’ for ya, little lord…

  42. Owen Blacker
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Paul Plutt: It doesnt seem there are that many non-bookreaders visiting this site anymore…

    Oh, we’re here, we just lurk ;o)

  43. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    bk753:
    Random thoughts from a non-book reader…

    Petyr Baelish is an exceptional character, and I really enjoy him.“A grasper from a minor house with a major talent for befriending powerful men…”Often slippery, always conniving, ALWAYS looking to turn the situation into a political or financial gain for himself.I feel sure that he recognized Arya… he’s just deciding how to spin this into a positive for himself…I have no doubt he will, one way or the other.

    Dany is treading on dangerous ground… (was I the only one to assume her dragons were immediately at risk?).She now possesses little to barter with, except a name which doesn’t hold sway in Qarth.Making demands without the power of mature dragons to back her up, seems very impetuous, and childishly spoiled.I’m not sure whether or not she can truly trust Xaro Xhoan Daxos, but passing on his marriage proposal certainly looks like a poor move in hindsight.

    Theon is starting to compete with Joffrey for the title of “character I most want to see dead.”He’s always been a sleezy little snot, but his betrayal of Robb Stark has taken him to new depths of loathing for me.Head on a spike!

    The scenes in Harranhall are great, and so well written and done.Tywin, aching for his captured son… holds the ultimate “get out of jail free” card with Arya and doesn’t know it.Priceless!

    I have absolutely no idea how ANY of this ends…

    Here Here!

  44. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: This whole debate really just displays one of the show’s biggest strengths. I feel like every character (except for maybe Joffrey) has people who like and respect them, as well people who can find something they dislike about them. While I love Theon’s character, I honestly can’t stand Jon Snow.Honestly, Tywin’s another character I’m surprised people hate so much. He has never done anything particularly harsh/unspeakable. He just seems to be fighting to keep his family at the top, and it just so happens his grandson is an idiot. But after he saved the prisoners, and the way he is treating Arya, it has made me realize he’s not totally ruthless. Just doing what he has to for his family’s name.

    Do you remember Tyrion’s story about his first love last season? That’s some classic Tywin right there.

    And remember that the brutal pillaging of the Riverlands by the Mountain and his men was done at Tywin’s command. He’s your classic evil executive, he’ll do anything necessary to succeed but will rarely get his hands dirty himself.

  45. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb: I will never understand why websites don’t employ proofreaders. :/ Really throws me off when I read transposed letters and weird errors.Be interesting to see Arya’s final name and how the NBR-contingent feels about that.

    Because most free websites (including this one I’m guessing) are more of a labor of love than anything else, and employing people costs money.

    But it does get me when websites belonging to actual news organizations are sloppy with the proofreading.

  46. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    No Raven For You!: Didn’t he order the killing of the Targaryen children after KL was taken during Robert’s Rebellion? I have spoiler-blocked it because I can’t recall it specifically from the show and may have picked that info up inadvertently outside of the four sides of my TV screen.

    As for your larger point – agree! Even ruthlessly efficient (see? we CAN all get along on WiC!) Tywin has things about his character I like. The fact that Charles Dance is just killing it in the role helps a lot. Hell, I think a reasonable argument could be made that Stannis the Grammar Nazi would make a better king than Joffrey. Actually ANYONE except Joffrey — he is The Devil. Pain Train comin’ for ya, little lord…

    Right you are…Charles Dance is killing it, and that Maisie Williams is holding her own with him is amazing! Let’s face it…there should be an Emmy category just for Game Of Thrones actors since they’re all so good.

  47. Morrigan
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Harrenhal might be my favorite storyline right now, I can’t believe the crazy situations, close calls and great characters that Arya has met on her journey. I would say you can’t even imagine those situations but George has and he wrote them down for all of us to enjoy.

    lol. No. Arya’s situations as written by GRRM are a hundred times better and don’t have slapstick goofy shit like Ser Amory Lorch falling down dead comically from a poisoned needle. This stuff in the show is all made up by the show writers. Just saying.

  48. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan: lol. No. Arya’s situations as written by GRRM are a hundred times better and don’t have slapstick goofy shit like Ser Amory Lorch falling down dead comically from a poisoned needle. This stuff in the show is all made up by the show writers. Just saying.

    This is a new viewer recap. Just sayin’.

  49. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan: lol. No. Arya’s situations as written by GRRM are a hundred times better and don’t have slapstick goofy shit like Ser Amory Lorch falling down dead comically from a poisoned needle. This stuff in the show is all made up by the show writers. Just saying.

    And yet their point was they’re enjoying those scenes that you denigrate, as are a lot of other new viewers, and others like myself who’ve read the books many times over. You can express your opinion without being a twat about it, and preferably not in a thread like this one where your comparisons don’t belong in the first place.

  50. Maiden Fair
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    bk753:

    I have absolutely no idea how ANY of this ends…

    Neither do I and I’m through 5 books!!!

  51. No Raven For You!
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan: like Ser Amory Lorch falling down dead comically from a poisoned needle.

    Oh! What coarse times we live in, when a desperate child calling in a heart-pounding, absolutely critical speed hit on a knight is considered “slapstick, goofy shit”.

    As for the actors — I said it before, and I will say it again…
    Give Maisie Williams ALL the Awards!

  52. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!:

    New here, just bought the first book so I can start reading it this summer after the show ends. I can understand all the Theon hate, but if put in his situation, could you say you’d do any different?

    The Starks generally treated Theon very well, like a ward rather than a prisoner. Robb called him his brother multiple times, especially when Greatjon Umber (AWOL in season 2) proclaimed him King in the North. Theon returned the appelation.

    However, there were a couple of scenes in which Theon was clearly not a Stark: first, when they stumbled upon the direwolf puppies. Theon refused to take one because the wolf isn’t the sigil of his house. Second, when Bran tried his cripple-saddle out for the first time and lost control of his horse, Theon offered to help look for him. Robb told him it was Stark business and turned him down flat. Theon ended up helping anyhow, but the tip of his arrow very nearly pierced Bran.

    So clearly, Theon never felt truly accepted by the Starks, not even by Robb. Still, when he offered to return to Pyke to broker an alliance with Balon, it was not a ruse to escape but rather, a genuine attempt to prove himself to Robb. He was just naive about Balon, who had come to think of Theon as a symbol of his own humiliating defeat, the death of his elder sons and the loss of his crown. Rationally, this is just as ludicrous as Cersei blaming Tyrion for their mother’s death in childbirth. Unfortunately, severe emotional trauma can make human beings bitter and twisted.

    Both Balon and Yara demanded that Theon make a choice: be a Greyjoy or run back to the Starks. It was of course, a false choice: Balon would never have allowed Theon to actually return to the mainland. He’d have disowned and imprisoned him, perhaps even drowned him for a traitor. When Theon burnt his letter to Robb, perhaps Theon didn’t merely decide to fight his way back into his father’s good graces. Perhaps he was also aware that he had no other option.

    Robb made a huge mistake when he didn’t listen to Cat’s warnings regarding Balon. It was also boneheaded for Robb not to discuss the plan of a strategic alliance between the North and the Iron Islands with his own war council. They would surely have confirmed Cat’s assessment but also understood Robb’s desire for a navy – something he has neither the money nor the men nor the time to build from scratch.

    The Lannisters have one, of course, presenting the permanent risk of a naval assault on the supply lines for Robb’s army (especially the bridge at the Twins). Moreover, now that he’s at war with Robb, Tywin could conceivably try to cut a deal with Balon himself, in spite of the fact that the Ironmen had roasted quite a few Lannister sailors during their ill-advised rebellion against the rule of Robert Baratheon.

    Note that one of the reasons Robb sent Cat to Renly is that the Tyrell bannermen have a huge combined fleet. The Starks don’t appear to have any allies beyond the Narrow Sea.

    Failing that, they would surely have counseled Robb to send someone other than Theon to broker a deal with Balon. However, that would have reminded Theon that being a ward means being leverage in any negotiations. He would have felt slighted and used, his relationship with Robb would have been severely strained.

    Robb wanted to avoid all of that, so he naively just accepted Theon’s genuine but ill-advised offer to be the broker. Which brings us back to when he burnt his letter to Robb: just as Cersei’s and Balon’s minds were twisted by events in their lives, Theon may actually have ended up blaming not himself but Robb for the identity crisis he found himself in. That in turn eliminated any scruples he would have had about seizing Winterfell, though Dagmer and Cassel both reminded him that it is the executioner who pays the iron price.

  53. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    No Raven For You!: Oh! What coarse times we live in, when a desperate child calling in a heart-pounding, absolutely critical speed hit on a knight is considered “slapstick, goofy shit”.

    Amory’s murder was cartoonish but GoT is no cartoon. It’s a drama, fictional but in many ways an allegory about the fundamental brutality of politics and war in any age. Perhaps the showrunners wanted viewers to chuckle first and later feel some shame over having chuckled.

  54. GoTtranscendsFantasy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Daniel,

    I don’t mean to be a dick but please don’t talk about the books at all! Saying that the LF scene is not in the book is still a spoiler. You’ve basically given away the fact that LF won’t say anything to Tywin or anyone else and that LF doesn’t present any kind of danger to Arya. If LF were to say something, then surely that scene WOULD be in the book due to its importance to the plot.

    I came to the same conclusion when I found out that Jon Snow being captured by the baby killer (end of episode 2) didn’t happen in the book. That made it quite easy to deduce that Jon Snow was not in trouble.

    I know you weren’t trying to give anything away, but I’m just pointing out that even sublte things like “I still loved this scene even though it was not in the book” is a spoiler. At the very least, spoiler tag something like that.

    And I’m not just directing this towards you but any other book reader. Please, nothing, nothing, nothing about the books! This page is for NON-READERS only!

  55. Knurk
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan: lol. No. Arya’s situations as written by GRRM are a hundred times better and don’t have slapstick goofy shit like Ser Amory Lorch falling down dead comically from a poisoned needle. This stuff in the show is all made up by the show writers. Just saying.

    just keep the bitching in the other recap-thread please.

  56. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan,

    There are lots of other threads for you to go and bitch about the show not doing justice to the books. This one is a NEW VIEWER thread only. Go suck the fun out of other discussion in another place, please.

  57. Robb's brother Tony
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Was anyone else reminded of Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith when Rodrick told Theon that he really was lost?

  58. Suzaku
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Choukai:
    Even as a book reader I prefer the non book reader recaps and stay away from the other threads. Too many purists and whiners.
    This was one of my favourite episode of both series and seems to get better each week.

    Agreed.

    It seems like there are a just checking scenes off a list. “From the book. From the book. New scene, hate it. From the book. From the book. Changed character, hate it. New scene, hate it. From the book.”

    Guys need to stop worrying so much about how closely it follows the book and just enjoy it for what it is.

  59. wargsareawesome
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Robb’s brother Tony:
    Was anyone else reminded of Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith when Rodrick told Theon that he really was lost?

    I was! And the words weren’t the only similarities: Rodrick taught Theon how to use a sword, just as Obi-Wan taught Anakin to use a lightsaber. I would mention more similarities, but I am a book-reader and they would be spoilers, so I won’t.

  60. pjm
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Choukai,
    Agreed on the non book reader posts.Refreshing to read the excitement,and edge of their seat posts. I’m a book enthusiasts,but the constant complaining from book readers is getting tired. It vexes me that we are all fans,and the tv version is absolutely,ridiculously tremendous! yet what would we do if the show was cancelled? Sit back,horn of fine ale in hand,and enjoy. There is no better series of books or tv show! complaints are for the Joffery’s and Theon’s of the world!

  61. Francine Rice
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Randy,

    I wholeheartedly agree. It is like Alice in Wonderland. I hate this entire Qarth storyline. To me, it doesn’t fit in at all with the other kingdoms. Maybe it is all just a mirage. Daenerys is one of my favorites but I don’t care for her story this season. I loved, loved, loved season 1. I also like Jaqen but what is going on with him? Apparently he is able to teleport objects as well as himself and if that is so why didn’t he teleport himself out of the prison wagon? I hope this series doesn’t become so fantastical that I can’t believe it. The direwolves also aren’t very protective this season. I think I may have to start reading the books in order to understand what is happening

  62. Flow101
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Francine Rice:
    Randy,

    I wholeheartedly agree.It is like Alice in Wonderland.I hate this entire Qarth storyline.To me, it doesn’t fit in at all with the other kingdoms.Maybe it is all just a mirage. Daenerys is one of my favorites but I don’t care for her story this season.I loved, loved, loved season 1.I also like Jaqen but what is going on with him?Apparently he is able to teleport objects as well as himself and if that is so why didn’t he teleport himself out of the prison wagon?I hope this series doesn’t become so fantastical that I can’t believe it.

    I also agree with this(I also haven’t read the books…yet).

  63. Lex
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan: lol. No. Arya’s situations as written by GRRM are a hundred times better and don’t have slapstick goofy shit like Ser Amory Lorch falling down dead comically from a poisoned needle. This stuff in the show is all made up by the show writers. Just saying.

    It’s been made clear, many times, that comments like yours are against the rules in the new viewers thread. Stop it with the smug reader comments. I’m starting to hate the readers, even though I’m one of them.

  64. Biscotti
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Biscotti really feels that WiC should have its own forum! With book reader and non book reader subforums. Let’s face it, it has a different focus and personality than other websites and I think it could really add something!

    Hear Me Roar:
    New Wolf,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and comments here!

    So, you mean apart from these threads? :) I don’t know how safe the comment sections are there, but in the Recap Round-Up posts Sue collects the non-reader category recaps each week as well.

  65. jkb
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Biscotti: Biscotti really feels that WiC should have its own forum! With book reader and non book reader subforums. Let’s face it, it has a different focus and personality than other websites and I think it could really add something!

    I concur ;p

  66. Derp
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Just a random thought, but something I’ve been wondering since the end of season one: whatever happened to Ser Barristan? His speech when he was dismissed from the Kingsguard was pretty boss (“even now I could cut through the five of you like cutting cake,”), so I assumed he would have at least some role to play as events unfolded. As there hasn’t been even a mention of him since then, I guess I was wrong? That would be a disappointment; I was expecting some epic ass-kicking from him. Seems like a wasted opportunity for an interesting character. Anyone have any thoughts? Is he gone for good?

  67. Matthew Jam
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I read all the books after finishing the first season, so I can flit between the spoiled and unspoiled discussions happily. Got to say though, the book reader threads are pretty much dead to me now, they do indeed suck all the fun out of the show. I am totally able to see them as two separate entities.

    Loved this episode, glad everyone else did, too! I thought Amory Loch’s death was brilliant, a lot of fun.

  68. WinterComing
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Delta1212:
    New Wolf,

    http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3204374

    There you go. Thread in the Television Without Pity boards for non-readers to discuss the show. Book readers aren’t allowed to post in the thread at all upon pain of banning.

    I’m pretty sure there’s at least a couple of book readers in that thread. Not regular posters but there’s one guy that always “notices” little things like Davos wearing gloves etc. And whenever I post his name on this site he mysteriously stops participating in the TWOP thread. Book readers who feel the need to guide viewers are the worst.

  69. jkb
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Derp: Anyone have any thoughts? Is he gone for good?

    Hardly ;p

  70. Mike
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    A non-reader colleague of mine made a special point of telling me that this was THE BEST episode he’s seen from either season.

  71. tel
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Francine Rice,

    I just want to say, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that the assassin can teleport. You can assume that it took Lorch longer than three seconds to get to Tywin’s chambers.

  72. Derp
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    jkb,

    Oh, good. I won’t prod further then. :)

  73. sukeyna
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    jkb,

    It would be nice if you put spoiler bars on that.

  74. Skid Marx
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    How can anyone not competely LOVE Sansa?
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ0aORjG6Pw

    I defy anyone to watch this and not fall in love! <3

  75. mags
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    it seems like all the jon and dany love has gone out the window a bit this season :( i kind of get it. It is as if the writing for their arcs are not completely on par with the other storylines.
    Jon is currently this one-dimentinal brooder, giving a bunch of one-liners. Any one notice that even gendry and ross have better and more lines?
    Kit’s acting in ep2 with sam was the the highlight so far. Haven’t seen the new one yet, but beyond that he hasn’t had much to work with.
    I’m saying this as a jon/kit fan, and not as a moaner :)

  76. Lela
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    “We had been hearing about the whispers and the potential uprising from the city, and it was fun and pretty intense to see it take place. Especially when Sansa was running for her life.”

    really? Was I the only one disturbed and sickened when Sansa was ALMOST RAPED? Fun??

  77. Wes
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    mags,

    tbh, I’m not sure I like the way Kit plays Jon. It’s too… flat. Perhaps Jon’s arc doesn’t adapt to TV as well. He doesn’t really have a lot of people to interact with.

  78. Wes
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Lela,

    ‘Fun’ certainly isn’t an appropriate word for the circumstances. From a book reader’s POV, I think there was some satisfaction in seeing the Hound come to the rescue and exchange between Tyrion, Joffrey, and the rest. It certainly is a disturbing scene, though.

  79. nazgul
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    greeting from Malaysia…
    yes we get GoT here…yes its few episodes late…and yes its censored…(hence the download)…long time stalker here…first time comment because – its the best episode to date! edge of the seat from the start…

    speaking of Theon multiple strike to off Ser Rodrick head remind me of Spartacus Vengeance finale (spoiler?) where Neavia also strike multiple time to off Ashur head…its sure hard to beheaded someone without proper weapon and skill…

    and I also have weird theory after watching Avengers last night…Tony Stark (Iron Man) might be descendant from Brandon the Builder (House of Stark founder) since both are engineering genius…like Iron Man – Iron Throne. And with Ser Dontos Captain America armor (first episode) the avengers almost got crossover in Got…

  80. Daniel
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    GoTtranscendsFantasy,

    Sorry I see your point, but that being said I do understand the frustration from the new viewers regarding the book readers posting spoiler after spoiler and bitching about that or that not being in the books or things being changed. I’m getting tired of it myself, which is why I wanted to post here, where people actually talk about the series and not bitch about the difference between the two. I’ll try not to refer to the books in any regard in the future.

  81. WinterQueene
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:06 am | Permalink

    Yes, I’ve read the books but, like so many others, I much prefer the non-reader threads, where I can enjoy the show for what it is, and not be brought down by whiny readers who hate anything resembling change.

    Definitely the best episode of either season. I’d been waiting from the mob scene all year, and here it is, in all it’s brutal, cowpat flinging glory! I was frozen in horror watching the almost-rape; it almost triggered a PTSD episode. But then the Hound went to town on the bastards and saved her, and I couldn’t have loved the man more for it. Looks like we might be getting some more interaction between them next week, which I’m looking forward to!

    I’m getting rather tired of Dany making the same speech over and over. I actually sided with the Spice King in their scene together, which surprised me. Apart from her season 1/first book storyline, I’ve always found Dany boring. The mysterious case of the disappearing dragons was a nice surprise and I’m looking forward to seeing how that plays out!

    The other highlight of the episode for me was Ygritte. She’s so sassy! Really looking forward to seeing her continue to be cleverer than Jon at every turn, I love that we have no lack of strong, independent female characters in the world of Westeros and beyond!

  82. mags
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 4:00 am | Permalink

    Wes

    i hadn’t read the books yet when i saw S1, so i had no expectations of the characters. But i’ve become attached to tv Jon the most. In S1 he interacts with others more, which allowed Kit a more diverse emotional arc. But it could get interesting from here into S3 with ygritte in the picture.

    The character is just very down played and completely over shadowed by other characters in his story. If i was one of the show’s writers, i’d take advantage of a character that’s popular with tv audiences. I think the fact that he needs to act jon as older also plays a role. Maybe his portrayal lacks a little charisma. But all actors grow into their characters as a story progresses.
    And in his defense, i love how he’s able to get angry and vented for jon and how he controls it. Always fun to watch.
    Anyhow, Kit is nominated for a Saturn award as supp actor for S1 this year, which i think he deserves.

  83. Kael of the Lake
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    Here are some highlights of episode 6.

    I was amazed by Jaquen’s acting. With very few words but mostly his expression (that tensed looking) he told Arya that she was given a superpower and she better not overuse it. His feelings about it was crystal clear. Well done Tom.

    I liked Ygritte’s playful mood after she made sure that she’s not in danger, at least by Jon. It might have felt awkward to some viewers because, a few hours ago, he was the man trying to behead her but in a little-less-than-an-hour episode time has to shrink and emotions should unfold quickly.
    Jon was behaving normally and he showed her that there was no trust at all. He couldn’t know if the freshly-killed wildlings treated her with respect or even if one of them was her boyfriend. So indeed, anything he did was justified.
    But also was Ygritte’s behavior. There can be many reasons why spooning Jon was so entertaining for her (apart from attraction or purely surviving instinct) and the most probable of them was a manipulation test over the man that couldn’t kill her. Kudos to both of them.

    Last but not least, Littlefinger’s stance and alertness. It’s not only an interesting character but well played too. Nobody could tell if he recognized Arya or not. Both cases are covered well especially in the mention of Cat’s daughters towards the end of the scene which could be easily translated as bait for the girl’s reaction. Arya didn’t even twitch but Littlefinger’s permanent grin left me uneasy and intrigued till the next episode.

    Downsides: Missed good ol’ Davos and Melisandre’s magic tricks.

    If not the best, certainly one of the most exciting episodes.

  84. James
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    I do post in the book reader recaps on rare occasions, but I prefer to read the non-book recaps. Its refreshing to see people actually enjoying the show. Also, I do appreciate some of the changes. I loved the scene in the first series between Cersei and Robert, and it explained a lot about the nature of their relationship – and that wasn’t in the book. Admittedly, there are some mistakes, some misjudgements – its a difficult job to translate a book into a different medium that opens some doors and closes others. These are counterpoised by the many instances where they get it right. And given the grandeur of the source material – when they get it right, there is nothing else like it on television.

  85. mags
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    ok, now I really need to find a way to watch this episode, it sounds so exciting, especially the Jon Ygritte stuff, have been looking forward to that meeting for months! There’s one week’s delay for the episodes that air in South-Africa.

  86. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    WinterComing,

    Yes, I’d be careful about TV w/o pity discussions, there are those smartass commenters who pretend they are non-readers but “notice” everything and “guess” everything right.

  87. No Raven For You!
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    I am a non-reader who sometimes posts over at the TVWOP “non-bookreader” forum – is there any particular poster that has raised your “Fake Non-Reader” radar so that I can skip those posts?

    Also, WinterQueene and others, PLEASE avoid saying “I am looking forward to X” if you are a book-reader. I get the enthusiasm for the books, but I don’t want to know! One of the lessons of Baelor last season was that anyone’s head could be on the chopping block next. Being a book-reader and saying “I am looking forward to X outsmarting Y through Season Z” should have a spoiler bar over it, because, as a non-reader, part of the thrill of this series is seeing X get into a threatening situation and knowing that this is the type of show that could kill off characters w/o any remorse. Knowing that X isn’t in mortal peril is a spoiler. Thank you. [/rant]

  88. Lex
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar:
    WinterComing,

    Yes, I’d be careful about TV w/o pity discussions, there are those smartass commenters who pretend they are non-readers but “notice” everything and “guess” everything right.

    That is beyond pathetic….

  89. WinterQueene
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    No Raven For You!:
    Hear Me Roar,
    Also, WinterQueene and others, PLEASE avoid saying “I am looking forward to X” if you are a book-reader. I get the enthusiasm for the books, but I don’t want to know! One of the lessons of Baelor last season was that anyone’s head could be on the chopping block next. Being a book-reader and saying “I am looking forward to X outsmarting Y through Season Z” should have a spoiler bar over it, because, as a non-reader, part of the thrill of this series is seeing X get into a threatening situation and knowing that this is the type of show that could kill off characters w/o any remorse. Knowing that X isn’t in mortal peril is a spoiler. Thank you. [/rant]

    Duly noted and I apologise. I tried to edit my post to avoid anything resembling spoilers, that one line slipped my notice- if someone could edit that post to add a spoiler bar, I’d be much obliged. In your position I’d be mad too.
    Promise it won’t happen again! >_<''

  90. Francine Rice
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    tel,

    In the previous episode he passed by Arya going in the opposite direction, holding his helmet when he passed her. She rounds the corner and the helmet is on top of the water barrel and he appears almost instantly. I haven’t read the books so I am only guessing. He moves uncommonly fast or so it seems. This is where the idea comes from.

  91. Sir Pounce
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    WinterQueene:
    Yes, I’ve read the books but, like so many others, I much prefer the non-reader threads, where I can enjoy the show for what it is, and not be brought down by whiny readers who hate anything resembling change.

    I also prefer non-reader threads for the same reason. That is to say that I enjoy READING non-reader threads. I think it’s inappropriate for readers to actually post in them, as it’s far too easy to accidentally spoil things. What we readers often forget (and as No Raven For You! pointed out above) is that everything — EVERYTHING — should be considered a spoiler for a non-reader. Those of us who have read the books should keep our mouths shut (which I will now go back to doing).

  92. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Just rewatched. Still can’t get over that opening scene. Maybe one of the best of the series yet.

    Random thought: Where was Bronn in that whole King’s Landing ordeal? Would have loved to have seen him kick some ass!

  93. Knurk
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: Random thought: Where was Bronn in that whole King’s Landing ordeal? Would have loved to have seen him kick some ass!

    it would have been too much badassery for the viewers to handle if in one scene we would get the Hound AND Bronn kicking ass.

  94. Shock Me
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Francine Rice,

    There is an explanation for the Direwolves not acting protective at Winterfell. But I agree it would have been helpful to have such a scene in the show.

    I just wish I could turn off my memory of the books while the show was on to have as much fun as you folks do.

    Absolutely LOVE the Tywin/Arya scenes. Loved Tyrion giving Joffrey yet another (p)imp-slap. Loved my favorite non-Ser, Sandor Clegane of the three dogs, rescuing Sansa. LOVED the High Septon getting to be Zombie lunch.

    Awesome thick neck on my man Roddy Cassell. Can’t wait to Theon eat it. I LOVE hating that guy almost as much as I LOVE hating Daeny’s crazy brother and crazy stupid Joffrey.

    I hope Doreah is OK. Daeny is running out of memorable Dothraki. I hope Ser Jorah gets back from the docks in time to help rescue the Dragons.

  95. Shock Me
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Derp,

    I think the Barristan The Bold is too Boss to leave alive so they either have to hunt him down or it will come back to bite them.

  96. Francine Rice
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    Ghost also did not protect Jon when he was attacked in the woods by the man with all the daughter wives.
    I was astounded that the one warlock, whose powers are supposedly waning, was able to kill everyone especially since the Dothraki are such skilled warriors.

    I pity Theon but I cannot stand Joffrey. With Theon I can at least understand why he is the way he is. Joffrey is just a complete and total nasty a**!
    I am able to follow the story most of the time. Every now and then I have a question or don’t understand something. I just found this forum so I will be visiting often.

  97. Biały
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    I have do many ideas I don’t know where to start!

    Maiden Fair: Neither do I and I’m through 5 books!!!

  98. Lord Of Television
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Non-book readers are here, lurking. I loved this site in S1, but it is getting too much traffic from book-readers. They are the ones who should be lurking.

    I love this show and I want to talk and read about it, because I look for every eye twitch and listen for every house name and sigil, but I ONLY KNOW WHAT IS IN THE SHOW.

    Please, do not confirm any theory I may post.
    Please, do not assure me that things will get better, or worse.
    Please, do not answer any question I post with a fact from the book. Even if the person is already dead. As far as I know, my favorite character in the world, Syrio Forel, is going to come back in season 7. I never saw him die. If you say it is so, be prepared to tell me in what scene if I can’t recall it.
    Please, do not mention that you were excited by a character’s “debut”. This is a spoiler. I don’t know which characters are going to play an imp0rtant part yet or will be snuffed in the next scene.

    Ideally, this forum should never need spoiler bars. Any theories proposed would be guesses by people who don’t know. Maybe they’ll be right. If I guess right, I don’t want a book-reader to accuse me of spoiling, because that spoils it for me, who didn’t know.

    Please, if you really like to read the excitement of new viewers, don’t help us.

  99. No Raven For You!
    Posted May 11, 2012 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    It is pointless, they won’t stop. I am done with this site. Sorry, We Do Not Sow — this site has too many self-important “experts” who need to rub their scent glands over everything.

    I am enjoying the conversation over here at Television Without Pity. Anyone who spoils anything — heads, spikes, walls.

  100. ubderos
    Posted May 11, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Dear fellow watchers,
    I’ve been lurking here since last season. must admit that I have read all the books within one week after the last episode of season 1….

    To fellow bookreaders… I know many of you enjoy following the non-reader thread… but why don’t just read it and not try to be “helpful”..
    Even comparing with the book as the event unfolded, is actually a SPOILER.

    I’m actually enjoying reading the comments by non-readers, but I rather keep the comparisons to myself…. If you need to post, Think first and edit before actually posting… otherwise you are not helping to gain new fans to the series… after all this site is about the TV series, not the books..

    polishing my axe now…. Greetings from far east…

  101. mags
    Posted May 12, 2012 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    i saw the episode now and thought it was brilliant! I oohed and aahed at pretty much everything that everyone else above raved about.

    Just to clarify, i am reading acok and am just behind the narrative in the show. I read ahead with certain favourite character chapters, which i know i shouldn’t, so i only sort of know what’s gonna happen.

    So i’m sorry as well if i spoiled stuff for others in previous posts.

    What i liked most about this episode were the nuanses:
    -Did LF notice arya?
    -Bran and Rickon crying at ser Rodrik’s beheadment.
    -Rob greeting and acknowledging his men.
    -Tywin / Arya
    -Sansa / The Hound
    -Halfhand touching Ygritte’s cheek.
    -Jon handling Ygritte. Forceful, but not ungentle.
    -the spooning. Very witty.


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