Episode 17 – A Man Without Honor – Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

Episode seventeen is in the books. What did you think? My full recap and reactions is below. Read it, after the break, then share your thoughts in the comments!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Clash of Kings. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ACoK yet, our non-book-reader recap will be up later. Thanks!

Summary

Where to start? Let’s begin beyond the Wall, where Ygritte is still Jon’s prisoner. Apparently Jon enjoyed their spooning session quite a bit. Ygritte taunts him mercilessly about it as they continue to hunt for Qhorin and his men. But before they can find them, Ygritte gets away and leads Jon right into a band of wildlings.

At Harrenhal, Tywin is killing soldiers, trying to find the assassin that is on the loose. Gregor suggests it may be someone from the Brotherhood without Banners, who has infiltrated the camp. Tywin is furious that the Brotherhood is still out there, causing trouble. He orders Clegane to burn and pillage in an attempt to suss out the location of the Brotherhood. Arya and Tywin then talk about Harrenhal, and the tale of Harren the Black. Arya knows the story but is more interested in the Targaryen sisters who helped Aegon burn the castle down. Before dismissing her, Tywin reveals that he knows that Arya is not a commoner.

In King’s Landing, Sansa thanks Sandor for rescuing her. Sandor says “you’re welcome” in his own special way. Later, Sansa has her first period and freaks out because it means she can now bear the king’s children. Shae tries to help her hide the evidence, even going so far as to threaten another handmaiden. But it’s all in vain as the Hound walks in. Later, Cersei attempts to console Sansa and gives her some guidance about what it takes to be a queen and a wife and a mother. That night, Tyrion and Cersei share a moment as they realize Joffrey is out of control and with Stannis coming for them, protecting the kingdom falls on them.

Across the Narrow Sea, Dany is distraught over her dragons being stolen and is blaming Xaro. Xaro says he has called a meeting of the Thirteen and suspects it was one of them that was responsible. Jorah returns and Dany talks with him about trust. Jorah assures her that she can trust him, so she orders him to find her dragons. Jorah goes to Quaithe, as she seems to know things. Quaithe tells Jorah that the ones who have the dragons is with Dany. Dany who is at the meeting of the Thirteen. There, Pyat Pree reveals he has the dragons. And Xaro is in league with him. They’re making a power play to install Xaro as King of Qarth. Pree’s doubles assassinate the remaining members of the Thirteen. One of the Pyat Pree’s then tells Dany to come to the House of the Undying if she wants her dragons back. Jorah runs in and stabs the Pree in the back and he dissipates. Another Pyat Pree advances on them, again urging Dany to come to the House of the Undying. Dany, Jorah and Kovarro high-tail it out of there.

At Robb Stark’s camp, Alton has returned with the response from Cersei to his terms. Robb orders Alton to be put in with Jaime until a new pen can be built for him. Robb then talks to Talisa, who needs more medical supplies, so Robb tells her to come with him to the Crag. Later, Alton and Jaime talk about their old squiring days. Then Jaime gets an idea for how he can escape. He asks Alton for his help, all he needs is his life. He kills Alton and the guard enters to investigate. Jaime kills him too, takes his keys and unchains himself. He must not have gotten far though, as the next morning he is being dragged back into camp. Catelyn has to keep Lord Karstark, whose son was guarding Jaime that night and was killed by the Kingslayer, from killing Jaime in revenge. That night, Catelyn goes to confront Jaime. Jaime taunts her about Ned’s bastard. Catelyn asks Brienne for her sword.

In Winterfell, Theon has discovered that Bran and Rickon have escaped. He hunts them down with hounds and Maester Luwin is dragged along. We see Bran, Rickon, Hodor and Osha walking in the countryside, they come upon the farm that the two orphan boys were sent to. Osha says they can’t run forever, eventually they will be tracked down. Later, Theon and crew arrive at the same farm, where Dagmer finds some walnut shells. He tells Theon to send Luwin away. Back at Winterfell, Theon has gathered the servants of Winterfell in the courtyard, including Maester Luwin. He then shows them what he does to those who defy him and reveals the tarred corpses of two small children. Maester Luwin cries out in anguish. Theon looks guilty. Fade to black.

What I Liked

Qarthian Coup – I thought this was a nice twist and, as a book reader, one that really surprised me. It makes sense that there would be some power plays within the Thirteen and this was a bold move by Xaro and Pyat Pree. Plus the whole scene with all the Pyat Prees slitting the throats of the rest of the Thirteen was creepy and cool. I’m not entirely sure why they needed to steal Dany’s dragons to pull this off, but maybe it will become clear on a rewatch or in a later episode. Anyway, I thought it was a cool twist and it made me say “Daaammn!” in a good way.
“You Know Nothing, Jon Snow.” – A classic line from the book that everyone was waiting to hear and Rose Leslie nailed it.
The Brotherhood – I like that they are establishing the Brotherhood without Banners. Makes me certain we should get some good scenes with them in later seasons.
This cast is amazing – There were a bunch of scenes tonight of just two people talking, but they were so compelling and dramatic because of the acting. Tywin and Arya. Cersei and Tyrion. Alton and Jaime. These scenes may not have looked like much on paper, but they were amazing to watch on screen, thanks to stellar acting by Charles Dance, Maisie Williams, Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage, Karl Davies and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.
That ending – So, they went there. I remember people wondering if David & Dan would be so cruel as to make all the new viewers think that Bran and Rickon were actually dead. Although there were clues that those two corpses aren’t the Stark boys, I’m sure many viewers will be convinced that they are. The tweet post should be interesting this week. I’m interest in We Do Not Sow’s take, as well. Let’s try not to ruin it for people, okay?

What I Didn’t Like

Jaime the Kinslayer – Jaime really went to the dark side in this one. Not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I can buy that a starving, desperate, imprisoned Jaime would go to great lengths to escape; but one of the most compelling parts of Jaime’s character is that despite doing some pretty horrible things, he does have a conscience. I think kinslaying may be too much, even for him. But damn, did Coster-Waldau sell it.

What did everyone else think? Leave your thoughts in the comments and don’t forget to rate the episode in our poll, at the bottom of this page.


667 Comments

  1. ace
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Now you can be spoilery with the deviations from the book

  2. dmf
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Oh my lord that ending.

  3. Harry
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    WTF JUST HAPPEN

  4. Arlene Lozano
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Oohh, Maester Luwin’s cry at the end brought me to tears!

  5. Derpstradamus
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    I’m normally not one to complain about changes from the book, but the changes to the Jon storyline seem completely unnecessary. They have all of the necessary characters cast, why change it that much?

  6. dmf
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    SO PUMPED FOR RATTLESHIRT

  7. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Good stuff. I liked the changes…and I love Ygritte. She’s fantastic beyond belief.

  8. Aziraphale
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Bloody hell, I didn’t think they were going to go there by showing the boys, but wow…they did. Gave me chills.

    Besides that, did love that little Ygritte line “did you pull a knife on me during the night?” :)

  9. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    ?!

    That’s pretty much all I can do in terms of a reaction right now.

  10. House Snow
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    NOOOOOO!!!!!!!

  11. LordStarkington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Initial thoughts:

    I thought this was a good episode but a pretty noticeable step down from last week except for the last few minutes.

    I still like Arya/Tywin although I think she’s getting a bit too bold. I can deal with it. I like that they’re adding more drama to the Qarth storyline, and I’m interested to see where it goes. The “Sword” and bodies cliffhangers were well done and a good choice, and I liked Alton/Jaime’s conversation. I also think Rose Leslie is fantastic as Ygritte.

    I didn’t like the attempted escape though, on a couple of fronts. First, why would Jaime have to kill Alton to get the guard’s attention (are chains just that crude?), I just sort of assume he could have knocked him around rather than brutally kill him. I also thought it was silly to have one of Lord Karstark’s sons serving as a common guard but meh.

    Interested to see where things go with Jon, the preview (and last scene here) suggest possible large deviations from the book.

  12. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    It’s another episode I think I’m gonna have to rewatch.

  13. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Poor boys…a lot goin’ on this episode! Kingslayer, you are such a dickweed. Westeros is hopping’ tonight! And Qarth too…WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS!!!!! Guess next week is the House of the Undying then, can’t say I will miss the Spice King.

  14. Mike Chair
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    The rapport between Arya and Tywin is epic.

    Snow knows nothing.

    NCW is back.

    Dany’s story crawls like it does in the books.

    I loved it.

  15. james yar
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    BEST EPISODE OF THE SERIES! HELL YESSSSS!

  16. Jon Connington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    You know nothing jon snow

    *cracks big ol’ smile.*

  17. Harry
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Who were those boys?

  18. Emo
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Was that the crippled Stark boy that they burned and hung?

  19. Craig Leska
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    What’s this nonsense about only 2 episodes left? 8,9, 10. That’s three. Right?

  20. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska,

    Yeah, I legitimately had a fight with my mom about this. She doesn’t think an HBO promo would lie. What’s with that?

  21. chris
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Very cool season 2 I have enjoyed the books now I can enjoy the show with suspense with all the new twists well done D&D keep up the good work I have no idea what they have up their sleves

  22. Shannon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    the ending reminded me of the way maximus’ family was murdered like that in gladiator

  23. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska:
    What’s this nonsense about only 2 episodes left?8,9, 10.That’s three.Right?

    Assuming it’s just a promo mistake. That seems far more likely than them axing an episode and keeping it covered up for weeks…even months.

  24. House Snow
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Honestly, I don’t see what the big fuss about Jaimie was. He behaved exactly like Jaimie in that episode. So he killed someone innocent, big deal. I thought it fit fine in the context of how he behaves.

  25. It's True
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    He did have an escape attempt in the books, and he did kill some dudes, but not Lord Karstark’s son (that happened in a battle).

  26. Clob
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    If Rattleshirt has captured Halfhand as well we’re essentially still on track for the most part with Jon’s line. Things may get (there) a bit differently, but not by all that much.

  27. WhereTheWildRickonsR
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    5/5!

    Gotta rematch to catch all the details but so man scenes that had me pumped up.

    Cat, Jaime, ygrette…wow a lot of powerful scenes

  28. House Snow
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Emo: Was that the crippled Stark boy that they burned and hung?

    I think its pretty self evident.

  29. LordStarkington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark: Assuming it’s just a promo mistake. That seems far more likely than them axing an episode and keeping it covered up for weeks…even months.

    Not to mention releasing a synopsis for a non-existent episode. They probably intended the “2 more episodes” to be part of the promo next week.

  30. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    It’s True:
    LordStarkington,

    He did have an escape attempt in the books, and he did kill some dudes, but not Lord Karstark’s son (that happened in a battle).

    Right, but they couldn’t reference a battle that took place in the past and have viewers connect to it. It made sense from a TV standpoint to make the guard Karstark’s son (even if it makes no sense from another standpoint). Worked for me given the circumstances.

  31. dmf
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    It’s True,

    I thought he did kill a Karstark in his escape attempt? Because Lord Karstark has a pretty emotional reaction all of a sudden and that escape attempts comes way after Jaime’s initial capture and the battle

  32. Emo
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Ok
    But was the the Stark boy that they killed? I’m in shock!!!!

  33. Jon Rivers
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    I got chills when “You know nothing, Jon Snow” was said.

    !!!

  34. Jon Connington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    If Rattleshirt has captured Halfhand as well we’re essentially still on track for the most part with Jon’s line.Things may get (there) a bit differently, but not by all that much.

    besides jon’s warging into ghost and getting attacked by whats his name as his eagle.

    w/e i guess…

  35. LordStarkington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    It’s True:
    LordStarkington,

    He did have an escape attempt in the books, and he did kill some dudes, but not Lord Karstark’s son (that happened in a battle).

    Oh, I know, that’s part of why I didn’t like the scene in the episode. I wasn’t *too* bothered by it but I think the way it happened in the books would have been more dramatic and come across as a little less contrived/cliche. I dunno, just my two cents.

  36. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    If Rattleshirt has captured Halfhand as well we’re essentially still on track for the most part with Jon’s line.Things may get (there) a bit differently, but not by all that much.

    I agree. I think it gets there just via a different path. I love me some Jon and Ygritte, so the more of them the merrier.

  37. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Emo:
    LordStarkington,

    Ok
    But was the the Stark boy that they killed? I’m in shock!!!!

    Next episode will shed much more light on it.

  38. Arthur
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    I liked this episode.

    Even with all the changes from the book I still think it was good.

    Jon Snow Vs Ygritte was awesome! I loved those scenes! Those were the best of this episode because it was so close to the books… LOVED it!

    Dany’s storyline change was cool. It makes sense and I don’t mind that change at all.

    The only thing that bothered me was I was waiting for a cool kickass scene with nik and nothing happened. This was Nik’s favorite scene? him bashing a cousin to death after a very sinister dialog? I mean it was cool but I was waiting for an awesome escape scene with him using his sword.

    Other then that I really liked this episode but I am holding off critiquing it until after i watch the second airing…

    On a side note. Did anyone notice the preview of what is ahead and HBO saying “2 episodes left” there is 3 episodes left right?

  39. PatD
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    What’s with the “Only Two Episodes Left”?

    8, 9, 10.

    Isn’t that three?? WTF?

  40. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    PatD:
    What’s with the “Only Two Episodes Left”?

    8, 9, 10.

    Isn’t that three?? WTF?

    Promo mistake. Don’t worry about it.

  41. Dreamlife
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    The good:
    1. Conversation between Arya and Tywin, including when she spoke too freely and her warned her I’m actually going to miss these scenes

    2. Sansa’s attempt to thank Sandor. Looks like they’re making up for the lack of San-San scenes in season 1.

    3. Sansa’s flowering. Sophie has been doing stellar work this season. The fear in her eyes when she find out and seeing her hysterically trying to hide it was painful to watch. I like the pairing of Shae with Sansa. I even enjoyed Cersei’s scene where she gives Sansa advice about loving your children no matter how you feel about the king.

    4. Tyrion and Cersei scene

    5. Jaime scenes, especially talking about his time serving Aegon. As soon as the Lannister boy started inching towards Jaime, I foresaw this ending badly for him. Poor kid. I also enjoyed seeing the start of Jaime’s banter with Brienne

    6. You know nothing, Jon Snow

    The Bad:
    1. The Dany stuff was boring and frustrating. I was hoping to see House of the Undying this episode. The political stuff had me confused.

    2. Final scene I don’t think they shouldn’t have emphasized the orphan boys so strongly in the earlier scenes…no way anyone is going to believe the corpses are Bran and Rickon, though Theon did look pretty guilty

  42. dmf
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark,

    I just dont buy that the wildings could catch Qhorin.

  43. Deva
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Alot of changes. I loved the books and devoured every one. I can understand condensing so things but to change actual story lines… By the time they get to book 5, if they do, the series will be I recognizable from the books.

  44. Jack Slap
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Why was Robb going to the crag? something about surrendering? who was surrendering exactly? and did you notice his love interest (forgot her name!) was all like “Oh i dont think i should go to the Crag”. I think we now now her true identify! ugh

    But can Jon still kill the Halfhand? Perhaps he is already captured?

  45. Arthur
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Derpstradamus,

    I’m normally not one to complain about changes from the book, but the changes to the Jon storyline seem completely unnecessary. They have all of the necessary characters cast, why change it that much?

    They had to change Jon’s storyline a little with Ygritte to allow them to have the dialog. So the viewer can be clued in on the foundation and backround story. So he needed some “alone time” with Ygritte for this to happen.

    It made perfect sense to me.

  46. NewJeffCT
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    House Snow: I think its pretty self evident.

    Alas, poor Bran & Rickon, we knew ye well.

  47. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Deva:
    Alot of changes. I loved the books and devoured every one. I can understand condensing so things but to change actual story lines… By the time they get tobook 5, if they do, the series will be I recognizable from the books.

    Might not be a bad thing. Book 5 is a meandering mess compared to the awesomeness of SoS.

  48. F*ck Yeah Yoren
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Oh god, with Jaime’s murder of Alton, and the murder of the boys being Theon’s doing and not Reek’s, I don’t know if I can forgive them.

  49. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Jack Slap: But can Jon still kill the Halfhand? Perhaps he is already captured?

    He went to accept their surrender. I assume that means he had men there laying siege.

  50. TC
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    I was hoping for a more faithful adaptation this season than what they have given us.

  51. WhereTheWildRickonsR
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Dreamlife,

    Dreamlife:
    The good:
    1. Conversation between Arya and Tywin, including when she spoke too freely and her warned her I’m actually going to miss these scenes

    2. Sansa’s attempt to thank Sandor.Looks like they’re making up for the lack of San-San scenes in season 1.

    3. Sansa’s flowering.Sophie has been doing stellar work this season.The fear in her eyes when she find out and seeing her hysterically trying to hide it was painful to watch.I like the pairing of Shae with Sansa.I even enjoyed Cersei’s scene where she gives Sansa advice about loving your children no matter how you feel about the king.

    4. Tyrion and Cersei scene

    5. Jaime scenes, especially talking about his time serving Aegon.As soon as the Lannister boy started inching towards Jaime, I foresaw this ending badly for him.Poor kid.I also enjoyed seeing the start of Jaime’s banter with Brienne

    6. You know nothing, Jon Snow

    The Bad:
    1. The Dany stuff was boring and frustrating. I was hoping to see House of the Undying this episode.The political stuff had me confused.

    2. Final scene I don’t think they shouldn’t have emphasized the orphan boys so strongly in the earlier scenes…no way anyone is going to believe the corpses are Bran and Rickon, though Theon did look pretty guilty

    I do agree that the Dany story was kinda blah..but used that time to grab snacks

  52. Arthur
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark: Promo mistake. Don’t worry about it.

    Yeah I saw that too and got scared!!! There are 3 episodes left right???

  53. SillyMammo
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Derpstradamus,

    I like the changes. It gives a more convincing arguement for why Jon does what he does. In the book, his reasoning didn’t ring all that true.

  54. Dreamlife
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Jack Slap:
    Why was Robb going to the crag?something about surrendering?who was surrendering exactly?and did you notice his love interest (forgot her name!) was all like “Oh i dont think i should go to the Crag”. I think we now now her true identify! ugh

    But can Jon still kill the Halfhand?Perhaps he is already captured?

    Ooh, nice catch on the Crag. Except unlike you, I like the possibility of Talissa being Jojen/Meera because this means yes the Reeds are in the story and yes Oona will stick around in future seasons

  55. Michelle
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    I loved everything, especially Jaime and Jon/ Ygritte.

  56. Scholesy
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    dmf:
    Brandon Stark,

    I just dont buy that the wildings could catch Qhorin.

    Except that is exactly what happens.

  57. michelle
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Derpstradamus:
    I’m normally not one to complain about changes from the book, but the changes to the Jon storyline seem completely unnecessary. They have all of the necessary characters cast, why change it that much?

    I TOTALLY AGREE! WHAT’S UP WITH THAT?

  58. Ed
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Book four AND five are messes!

    B

    Brandon Stark: Might not be a bad thing. Book 5 is a meandering mess compared to the awesomeness of SoS.

  59. WhereTheWildRickonsR
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark: Might not be a bad thing. Book 5 is a meandering mess compared to the awesomeness of SoS.

    Well..if they only have a limit of 10 episodes, they can cut out the bad stuff

  60. Joseph
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska,

    I believe the “Battle of Blackwater” episode is a two-hour episode. So yes, two episodes left, but three hours.

  61. David the Grey
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Jon Connington: besides jon’s warging into ghost and getting attacked by whats his name as his eagle.
    w/e i guess…

    While I am with you on your sentiment, I think this might be something they can strip and insert at whatever point they like, and still keep the plot points the same. I don’t recall the exact sequence of events, but I’m wondering if the writers were able to give more screen time to Ygritte this way?

  62. Winnie
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    My favorite storyline is kinda shot….i think……trying not to complain, really trying…but what’s up with the direction Jon’s story is taking? No more Qhorin Halfhand perhaps? I did love Jon and Ygritts’s scenes together, both actors are doing a fantastic job, but I think Jon is being portrayed as a puss…….I guess I should ignore the books and just watch the show for what it is…..sigh…..
    Positive note- Tywin and Arya are fantastic! I could listen to them banter all day long! I actually found myself tolerating Shae this episode -and Jamie! Wow, he certainly uses words as dangerously as his sword…
    I don’t believe the two burned bodied were really the Stark boys…… Looking forward to next Sunday! Again!

  63. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Judging by some of these comments, WiC might have to put up a curtain call for Bran, or else risk ruining the surprise.

  64. Arthur
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    WhereTheWildRickonsR,

    I do agree that the Dany story was kinda blah..but used that time to grab snacks.

    I like Dany’s storyline chage. It makes more sense then the books IMO. And trust me I am not a D&D fanboy I think their use of Ros sucks!!!

    With Dany I like the change.

    The change is basically this in a nutshell;

    Someone of power wants to use Dany’s dragons to gain more power. From what is being said in this episode. The dragons will die without Dany so this person of power wants the dragons but also needs to keep Dany alive and well and with them or they would die. Now Dany needs to find a way out of this mess.

    That makes sense right? When I was reading the books the whole time I was thinking “Why doesn’t someone just kill Dany and take her dragons?” It should have happened. So this TV change is for the better and more realistic. Only thing is they had to make the dragons totally dependant on Dany so it would make sense to still keep her alive.

    I really like it…

  65. TheBull
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Best episode of the season, easily one of the best of the series so far. FANTASTIC!

  66. Winnie
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    michelle,

    Agreed!

  67. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    I liked it, changes and all.

    That was an amazing shot of Harrenhall from Tywin’s window. And another great interaction between Tywin and Arya. The Mountain got some lines! And he didn’t come across like a giant who can’t act. I’m fine with the new Mountain. And what do we call exposition which takes place while the cup-bearer gobbles up some mutton while the great lord does some backstory on Harrenhall? Eatposition? Muttonposition? A man wants to know.

    Rickon had multiple lines! He has darn strong hands to crack a walnut like that too. Yay, Art Parkinson!

    I think of the two major Jaime scenes, it was the second one which NCW liked. The one in which he talks about vows. Nicely done there.

    Tyrion and Cersei. Powerful scene. At the end of that scene, two wonderful actors communicating without speaking. Amazing work by Dinklage and Headey there.

    No Joffrey this time around, but plenty of Sansa. And the Hound and Sansa. Twitter probably had a San/San nerdgasm on the first and another one the second. Except for the mysterious Shae helping, the “flowering” scene was nicely done. Still on the fence about Shae. I wonder where they’re going with this interaction.

    Theon, as Ser Rodrik said so well last week, is truly lost now. You could see him losing himself to the dark side this episode. He’s turning into quite the little rhymer soon enough.

    Ygritte! Great dialogue. I’ll bet Twitter crashed FaBio’s computer again at the long-awaited phrase. Sad that they cut out some bits of Qhorin’s stuff. Hoping they’ve just moved it around a bit and it still happens somewhat as written; but I’m quite happy with Rose Leslie and Kit Harrington together in these scenes. Poor Jon, he really does know nothing and is in way over his head with Ygritte.

    Nice scene with Jorah and Quaithe. Interesting stuff, probably sent those looking for absolute canon screaming for the hills.

    King of Qarth? Well that one certainly surprised me. But where the hell is Doreah? And I cheered when Jorah took out Pyat Pree and then frowned and yelled “Damnit!” when he didn’t. Nasty, screep warlock. But I’ll bet you could kill him by feeding him a quarter-pounder with cheese (or is that a Cheese Royale in Qarth?).

    Going to be interesting next week, and we still need a buildup to the Blackwater on top of everything else! Whew. I’m tired out just thinking about it.

  68. persephone88
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    I am loving Brienne more with each episode. I was worried about Gwendolyn Christie at first casting, but she is rocking this part. Next season will be awesome. I just wish they had had Cat swing the sword up before they cut away in the Jaime scene. Also missed her kicking over the slops bucket at him per the book. His scene with her was right on the money though.

    Poor Alton. That guy did a bang up job in a small role – I was feeling bad for him being one of the Lannisport Lannisters, so wanting to be like Jaime, and then…ugh! I have to say, they are really painting Jaime blackheartedly, but as a major Jaime fan, I don’t mind this too much. My only qualm was that I don’t see him taking out a relative, even though he had no love lost for his Frey cousin in the books, this was a lot more villainous. I just hope the writers can really score on his changes in Season 3 without it seeming totally unbelievable. Really looking forward to him and Brienne.

    Again, love Maester Luwin. He has so brought that character alive. I liked how Theon stumbled a bit after trying to beat up the much bigger guard in the opening scene – Theon is just a born loser, trying so hard to please the wrong people. Alfie Allen has done a great interpretation of this part, and made Theon much more multidimensional, I think.

    I wish we had seen the miller’s boys. I have to say that this is one instance where I DID miss Jojen Reed. The scene in the book where Jojen tells Bran he dreamed of a man cutting his face off gave me serious chills. I think the burned bodies is going to be way too obvious to the non-reading audience that it is not Bran and Rickon.

    Not sure about the Dany storyline. I liked the creepy Pyat Pree multiplying deal, and him in cahoots with Xaro. I am just hoping that the house of the Undying retains some of the prophecies and is not just dragons turning on their captors. Are we ever going to see what happened to Doreah? Or the initial Irri murder scene? Or has that scene gone the way of Ned Stark’s remembrance of Brandon in the throneroom?

    I’m liked Jon’s reactions in his scenes with the wildling – and she delivered the “You know nothing, Jon Snow” wonderfully.

    Did NOT like the Tyrion / Cersei scene. They are making Cersei way too weak this early on. I didn’t like her confiding in Tyrion about Jaime. Or her moaning about Joff.

    Interesting San/San scene – he was meaner than I expected, but I am hoping that they will have that wonderful last scene together before he flees KL.

    And did anyone notice the look exchanged between Roose and Jeyne Westerling as he was leaving Robb’s tent and she was going in? Are they in cahoots or what? I wonder how they are going to play Jeyne’s alias – that she ran away from home, and that’s why she did not want to go back to the Crag? That she didn’t want him to know she was a Lannister bannerwoman?

    Love the Arya / Tywin scenes, but I think she was too off guard in this one…til she covered at the end. And how are they going to make Tywin into the cold hearted bastard he is at the end re. the events leading to his demise, when they’ve given him this almost grandfatherly way with Arya? I hope that D and D can pull it off!

    Overall good episode, though I was not happy about the burned boys at the end. Will be interested in seeing what the critics / viewers think…

  69. Dany's Knickers
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    So, I’ll pose the question, because it seems to match with the direction of the series:

    Is Game of Thrones actually better when it deviates from the book but keeps hitting the ‘book milestones’? I agree, it’s deviated fairly significantly… pieces I was hoping to see how D&D would handle (no discussion with the half-hand, and WTF was that in Qarth). However, I think they’ve pulled off genius! They’ve taken a story we know, love, cherish… and made it better only through making US (bookreaders) wonder. They’ve made US, in a way, stop seeing the books alone and start watching the show, as something on it’s own.

    Personally, I think they’ve brought new life to the series. I’ve found that the episodes that have purely followed the book (or close to it) we’re episodes I’ve liked, but not truly embraced. The story in my mind is still better.

    However, the new story, the one with some changes, some different motivations, has me rapt. I’m actually much more intrigued. I think it’s actually far better than getting a visual regurgitation of the book.

    Now i feel dirty…

  70. JamesL
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Deva,
    “By the time they get to book 5, if they do, the series will be I recognizable from the books.”

    Good, hopefully they can manage to keep the story entertaining.

  71. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Joseph:
    Craig Leska,
    I believe the “Battle of Blackwater” episode is a two-hour episode.So yes, two episodes left, but three hours.

    No, there’s three episodes: “The Prince of Winterfell”, “Blackwater,” and “Valar Morghulis.” I’m betting on a promo mistake.

  72. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    Haha! Man, I’ve been seeing more and more people calling the show out for changes that aren’t actually changes at all, so this is hilarious to me. My guess is quite a few newbies read through the series fairly quickly, or some of us long-time fans are starting to get so old that we’re becoming senile waiting on this series to conclude. Either way, funny stuff.

  73. PatD
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I never saw that massacre of the 13 coming. I love being blindsided and thought it made for great TV.

    Lots of very quotable lines in this episode:

    “You know nothing, Jon Snow.” (Great delivery, too.)

    “Is that a woman?”

    “You put a crown on a dog.”

    “M’lord, not My Lord.”

    I’m totally loving the Jon/Ygritte treatment. I have no fears that Halfhand’s great moment will be shortchanged.

    That was a terrific scene between Tyrion and Cersei. His body language… when she was crying… like trying to comfort a viper. Great stuff.

    I think we saw some foreshadowing in that scene between Tywin and Arya.

    My only complaint about this episode (and, really, the scene is not over, so maybe it’ll still happen), is that I wanted to hear Jaime tell Cat about the scene in the throne room with Ned’s father and brother before he killed the king. I though that part in the book was really well written.

    All in all, very entertaining episode.

    Theon’s misunderstoodness has officially met its expiration date with me.

  74. Derpstradamus
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    My biggest problem is that it seems they skipped the part where Jon and Qhorin find Mance’s camp, Jon gets his scar, and then the ensuing chase sequence.

  75. michelle
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I LOVED ALL THE BOOKS I DIDN’T THINK THEY WERE A MESS

  76. PatD
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    The Alton/Jaime scene was one, big, fat metaphor for this fandom.

    I’m shooting a virtual side-eye at NCW.

  77. Solar
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    House Snow:
    Honestly, I don’t see what the big fuss about Jaimie was.He behaved exactly like Jaimie in that episode. So he killed someone innocent, big deal.I thought it fit fine in the context of how he behaves.

    no man is more cursed than the kinslayer. jaime would NEVER kill a member of his own family in that way.

  78. Eric Fitch
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    The Stark boys didn’t die. They would not have handled it that way.

  79. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Dany’s Knickers,

    I agree wholeheartedly. I started my GOT series life as a diehard purist and now I’m enjoying things immensely.

  80. sockslol
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    I’m extremely disgruntled about how the show implied Sandor told Cersei about Sansa’s menstruation.

  81. David the Grey
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    My initial thoughts:
    – I loved Ygritte! She has all the best lines!
    – Happy to have Jaime back! Loved his scene with Cat & Brienne.
    – Sansa & The Hound, Sansa’s flowering, and Sansa’s talk with Cersei – all excellent!!! Actually this was an awesome Sansa episode, my most favorite yet for her.
    – I was wondering why the emphasis on Rickon’s walnuts, but by the end of the ep, I figured it out.
    – I also liked the Jorah & Quaithe scene, particularly the look on Jorah’s face when betrayal was mentioned.

  82. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Eric Fitch,

    Like putting Ned Stark’s undignified, fly-ridden head up on a spike for Sansa to see? Hmm. ;)

  83. Ingemar Svensson
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    I thought the episode was actually kind of slow and lacked some real action. A bit too much of just people talking and exposing. There was no point where I felt that I just have to watch that scene over and over again.

  84. paul
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Battle of Blackwater will be episode 9 of this season and will take up around 16 min of the episode..

    http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwater_(episode)

  85. Mrs. Wun
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink
  86. Eric Fitch
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Eric Fitch,

    Like putting Ned Stark’s undignified, fly-ridden head up on a spike for Sansa to see? Hmm. ;)

    Whatshisface asked Theon to send Luwin away. That tells us something.

  87. Derpstradamus
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    paul:
    Battle of Blackwater will be episode 9 of this season and will take up around 16 min of the episode..

    http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwater_(episode)

    IIRC that is a misquote.

  88. UNONUTINGJONSNOW
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    The things you do for love………. Jaime Lannister :(

  89. cranscape
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Not sure why people don’t understand you can get from A to C with a different B than in the books. They are just giving lines/scenes/duties to a smaller pool of characters, speeding things up, dealing with the shoddy memory of tv viewers, but they have the same final destinations in mind. It sucks when it is your favorite minor character or scene that gets chopped, but they have the key moments GRRM laid out in mind and will hit on them. Have a little faith. They aren’t stupid.

  90. WhereTheWildRickonsR
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    WhereTheWildRickonsR,

    I like Dany’s storyline chage.It makes more sense then the books IMO.And trust me I am not a D&D fanboy I think their use of Ros sucks!!!

    With Dany I like the change.

    The change is basically this in a nutshell;

    Someone of power wants to use Dany’s dragons to gain more power.From what is being said in this episode.The dragons will die without Dany so this person of power wants the dragons but also needs to keep Dany alive and well and with them or they would die.Now Dany needs to find a way out of this mess.

    That makes sense right?When I was reading the books the whole time I was thinking “Why doesn’t someone just kill Dany and take her dragons?”It should have happened.So this TV change is for the better and more realistic.Only thing is they had to make the dragons totally dependant on Dany so it would make sense to still keep her alive.

    I really like it…

    Agreed. Maybe I should have clarified. I liked the last few moments of her story. I just kinda tuned off the parts when she’s proclaiming mother of dragons blah blah blah. She is a great actress but theyre not giving her much to work with..until the ending. Wow

  91. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Solar,

    Yeah, agreed. Jaime never seemed like the type to me who would kill even a useless, distant member of his family. That kid was 100% innocent on top of it, and did exactly nothing — unlike Bran, who Jaime could have at least said “well, he saw me committing a moral/religious wrong.” I guess Jaime never came off to me as a totally coldblooded asshole, even in his worst moments (i.e. throwing Bran off the tower).

    I’m really not sure about that change. It’s not ruining the episode for me, but… I don’t know, maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

  92. Lundy
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Now the Jon story line w/ the wildlings feels contrived, where it didn’t seem that way in the book. That disappoints me a bit… Dany’s new story line could be interesting though.
    I’m enjoying the Tywin & Arya scenes, but he’s gonna catch on girl. I wonder if Tywin will be her 3rd death & that will be the surprise death brought forward from the 3rd book.

  93. Eric Fitch
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    There wasn’t nearly so much menstrual blood described in the books. Damn them for these changes!

  94. Jack Slap
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Joseph:
    Craig Leska,

    I believe the “Battle of Blackwater” episode is a two-hour episode.So yes, two episodes left, but three hours.

    where did u hear that?

  95. Mike From Braavos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Dreamlife: The Bad:
    1. The Dany stuff was boring and frustrating… The political stuff had me confused.

    That sure sounds like the book to me! : )

  96. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS

    Well, let’s just assume that they also captured Qhorin–they can still threaten to kill both, Qhorin can tell Jon to fight him to “prove” he is breaking his vows, and the plot can continue from there just the same way it was.

  97. fuelpagan
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    I pretty much love this episode, but do have a couple of reservations.

    The Jaime scenes were just awesome! The look on his face when Alton said he would remember the day he squired for Jaime till the day he died. It was the same look of regret when he shoved Bran out the window. Just perfect. The moral of the story is don’t talk to Jaime about the good old days, you end up dead. Robert, Jory and now Alton.

    Dance and Maise were great again. Wonderful scene.

    Enjoyed the Qarth scenes. I told you guys last week that Ducksauce was in on the dragon theft. I’m finding the show more interesting than the book. Other than the house of the undying, the Dany storyline in the book bored me in ACoK.

    I liked Jon’s storyline, but if I don’t see the Halfhand asking if Jon’s sword is sharp, I will be disappointed. So having reservations, but I think it will be fine.

    No doubts now that Talisa is a fake name and she really is Jeyne, they just changed how they meet to give them more time together.

  98. Lundy
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    At the end of the show it said there are only 2 episodes left. It should be 3, right???

  99. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    paul,

    Actually, the 16 minutes was a misquote from a mistranslation. It is probably going to take up most of that episode.

    I read the “two episodes left” as there being two episodes left in the “real” season, since much like last season where Episode 9 was the climax and Episode 10 was used as a denoument and set up for the next season, the same is being done this year, where Episode 9 brings all the stories this season to their climax, and Episode 10 wraps things up and sets up next year for us.

  100. Jack Slap
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Dreamlife: Ooh, nice catch on the Crag.Except unlike you, I like the possibility of Talissa being Jojen/Meera because this means yes the Reeds are in the story and yes Oona will stick around in future seasons

    what? reeds? no no i meant she is actually jeyne westerling!

  101. a
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    House Snow,

    In the books, it’s said to an extent that the worst type of person is a “KINslayer”. The Jaime in the book seemed to be characterized above this terrible of a dishonor.

  102. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Baramos:
    LordStarkington,

    MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS

    Well, let’s just assume that they also captured Qhorin–they can still threaten to kill both, Qhorin can tell Jon to fight him to “prove” he is breaking his vows, and the plot can continue from there just the same way it was.

    That is exactly how I see it playing out next week. At least I hope so. A few things shifted around, but the basic story preserved.

  103. T-Good
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    cranscape,

    Perfectly put.

  104. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    I loved the name of this episode. Some of the other names have been a bit hit and miss on what exactly they are referring to (“The Old Gods and the New” was definitely vague), but “A Man Without Honor” is such a perfect name since it refers to so many characters–Jorah, who has secretly betrayed Dany in the past; Jaime, who is considered a vile traitor to the man he swore to protect; Ned Stark, who Jaime points out must have cheated on Catelyn to sire a bastard; Jon Snow, who’s honor in keeping his oaths is being tested; and Theon Greyjoy, who has turned on his surrogate family to the extent that he is willing to murder children. The realization on Theon’s face at the end of the episode as he understands just how low he has sunk was stunningly done.

  105. Ed
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think there’s a need to convince you. Even D&D can swing and miss sometimes. I didn’t like that either.

    I’m cool with changes to the story as written though – it sure makes it more interesting to watch. I have to pay attention!

    ThePinkDragon:
    Solar,

    Yeah, agreed. Jaime never seemed like the type to me who would kill even a useless, distant member of his family. That kid was 100% innocent on top of it, and did exactly nothing — unlike Bran, who Jaime could have at least said “well, he saw me committing a moral/religious wrong.” I guess Jaime never came off to me as a totally coldblooded asshole, even in his worst moments (i.e. throwing Bran off the tower).

    I’m really not sure about that change. It’s not ruining the episode for me, but… I don’t know, maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

  106. Susie
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Dreamlife,

    I totally agree. I didn’t believe Bran and Rickon had died for a second until I saw Theon’s expression. Then I panicked.

  107. David the Grey
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: King of Qarth? Well that one certainly surprised me. But where the hell is Doreah?

    Didn’t Dany send off Doreah to get information from wealthy ‘happy’ Qarthians? Could Doreah have been seduced by the richest of them all (now King of Qarth) and helped to have the dragon’s captured?

  108. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    I love the books and the changes they have made do not bother so much. So far they have kept the core intact. I understand there are budgetary and scheduling issues for the story to become fully realize. I did find myself missing Greatjon Umber this season when Robb has these scenes with the Boltons and Karstarks. If Greatjon was there I feel it would add some continuity between season 1 and 2. I know, they have change more important things to the storyline than worrying about adding a minor character like Greatjon. However I do miss him, he is one of Robb’s only bannermen who is not a backstabbing piece of s#!t.

  109. House Snow
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Eric Fitch: The Stark boys didn’t die. They would not have handled it that way.

    What can I say man. Those two kids are dead. They just didn’t want to show there faces thats all

  110. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    House Snow: I don’t see what the big fuss about Jaimie was. He behaved exactly like Jaimie in that episode. So he killed someone innocent, big deal. I thought it fit fine in the context of how he behaves.

    The big deal is that it was very Tywin-esque to use someone who liked and trusted (nay, worshipped him!) as a pawn. (Jaime’s definitely up for killing innocents but not in this cold and calculating way – that just doesn’t seem very Jaime-like to me.) And why did he have to kill Alton? Why was the Karstark kid – who came in when they were talking too loudly – not able to hear him beating someone to death until it was all done?

    It didn’t really work logically for me if the whole idea was to lure the Karstark boy into the cage; Jaime could have clued Alton in on the escape plan and had him yell or something with the same effect of getting Torrhen Karstark in the cage, no? (And why only one guard on the Kingslayer? I have so many logical problems with this bit.) And then, after Jaime’s “escape”, Lord Karstark could have killed Alton for aiding Jaime to kill his kid (from Lord Karstark’s perspective) which would <have tied in with Karstark’s murder of the squires in the book after Cat releases Jaime.

    I’m not even a book purist, I’m just offended by the lack of logic in this entire scene – it makes no sense to me as staged.

  111. Winnie
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Eric Fitch:
    There wasn’t nearly so much menstrual blood described in the books. Damn them for these changes!

    Hahaha! Crack me up! This made me take my chill pill real quick :)

  112. Meg
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    sockslol: I’m extremely disgruntled about how the show implied Sandor told Cersei about Sansa’s menstruation.

    Yeah, why would he do that? It makes no sense.

  113. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Jaime has yet to have his epiphany, so I personally think this is in character.

    Besides the dude just got done pointing out how distantly related they are, and Jaime is probably the most spur-of-the-moment character in the books. He’s not going to think things through as much anyone else would.

  114. DoubleA012
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    After reading the pre-show chat I was a little worried about the possible changes. However, after watching the show I gotta say the only story line changes I don’t like is Jon Snows. It was a big deal that he let her go in the book and also a big deal that Qurin and him fought (and Ghost). Thats how he gained their trust. Im not sure how they are going to do it now but after last episode (and this one) here is my prediction:
    -Qurin told Jon before they attacked the wildlings that one was a girl, or possibly that they would leave one alive (if he didnt know one was a girl). He told Jon to prove himself he would need to infiltrate them like he did in the book before they fought and then learn about them for the nights watch. Which would make more sense in why they left him to kill her instead of watching. Another possiblity is that they knew Jon couldnt kill her and might possibly lead her to their people (maybe they [qurin and crew] are following from a distance?). Anyways I think the wildlings will take him and either qurin and his crew will run into them or try to save Jon which is when he’ll have to fight him (possibly qurin told him their may come a time when they have to fight?)
    -Actually as I just wrote that which I had been thinking about a new possibility popped into my head. Maybe they will try to kill Jon, but Ghost will save him and as they run away he runs into the night watch again, which is when they then have to make their last stand, and then jon fights Qurin after he makes his speech to him and what not.
    -These are just a couple Ideas idk why they are changing Jons so much, kind of dumb, but all the other changes are welcome.

    I thought the Jamie thing was great, and honestly I dont think any non book readers will be mad, most people dont even care about Alton. And book readers know the real Jamie so all should be happy.

    The Dany added story line is cool, I like how they slit the throats of the 11 others haha that was cool. Makes it a bit more interesting and also forces her to go to the House of the Undying. Who else would willingly go there?

    Theon and the fake deaths of Bran and Rickon were good, great cliff hanger, many should be shocked at that and it now looks like Cat will let Jamie go once shes found out their dead

    Overall not mad about the changes other then Jons but I have faith they will work it out. Also, sorry if I spelled any names wrong, I dont care to remember exactly how they are spelled.

    Oh and one more thing if someone could answer, this was episode 7 and the preview said “Only 2 episodes left” so this season is only 9 and not 10 episodes? or was that an error?

  115. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    David the Grey: Didn’t Dany send off Doreah to get information from wealthy ‘happy’ Qarthians?Could Doreah have been seduced by the richest of them all (now King of Qarth) and helped to have the dragon’s captured?

    That’s a possibility. I think perhaps she might also be taking care of the dragons, perhaps having saved her life by convincing the dragon-nappers that the dragons know her, trust her and she can feed them? We’ll see soon enough.

    And on a totally unrelated point…

    I’m really a bit annoyed that Irri was just killed off with no fanfare. It has left a bit of a hole like never really discussing Roz and the other whore from a couple of weeks ago. Not sure why, but the writers seem to have gone a little too bare bones on the plot for those two instances.

  116. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    There are people legitimately complaining on various forums about the amount of blood Sansa had.

    I’m…not sure any of these people are women, because seriously.

  117. MaryS-NJ
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I loved the stuff between (comedienne) Ygritte and (straight man) Jon Snow, but I’m not sure about the changes from the progression in the book, especially the absence of Quorin Halfhand and my concern that there won’t be a duel. As it is, “You know nothing, Jon Snow” looks downright stupid, not just an honorable fool.

    I don’t have a problem with any of the other changes so far. They have to condense somewhere and I think they’ve made some excellent choices in how to carry the core of the story over from the book to screen.

  118. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    There are people legitimately complaining on various forums about the amount of blood Sansa had.

    I’m…not sure any of these people are women, because seriously.

    Speaking as a man, I can say that most men remain blissfully ignorant of that whole aspect of womanhood and we are squeamish and just generally unable to deal the subject rationally. Don’t expect reasoned arguments about any facet of it from us.

  119. The Dear Hunter
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Why are people posting on the book reader’s recap if they dont even know the way the whole Theon/Bran/Rickon thing goes down? Not sure I get why people like that would want to have that whole section of the story either spoiled, although I dont believe it was very believable, are confirmed for them. An another note I fear we have lost a very good Halfhand moment that I don’t believe can be redeemed with the way it is looking like it will go. It will just feel too staged.

  120. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    On the changes: I’m not against any of the changes in theory, but I thought the execution of the changes was pretty corny this week. That’s all I’m going to say about Pyat Pree and his doppelgangers…

  121. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Oh, no, I get that, it just seemed like a really, really weird thing to complain about.

  122. Andy Gavin
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    I agree that this isn’t quite as good as last week (my full episode review here). Still, there is some really good stuff. The John / Ygritte interaction is awesome. She’s doing a really good job with the character. The Arya / Tywin back and forth is also great – and a few of Jaime’s lines are really funny: “Is that a woman?”

  123. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    The Dear Hunter,

    Imagine Jon and Qhorin as captives together in Rattleshirt’s camp. They escape. Qhorin gives all of the book canon arguments to Jon about what he needs to do and it proceeds apace. All while cutting out an unnecessary scene or two by condensing it all and shifting the storyline around a bit. I think that’s a reasonable way to work it and I hope that is what happens.

  124. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Is there no love for Brienne’s “…MAN”?

  125. Jon Connington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    no one else is disappointed in jon not warging? and halfhand realizing they were found after jon tells him his visions with the eagle? resulting in the dule?

    im mad disappointed…

  126. Jack Slap
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    SkywalkerIsDead:
    I love the books and the changes they have made do not bother so much.So far they have kept the core intact.I understand there are budgetary and scheduling issues for the story to become fully realize.I did find myself missing Greatjon Umber this season when Robb has these scenes with the Boltons and Karstarks.If Greatjon was there I feel it would add some continuity between season 1 and 2.I know, they have change more important things to the storyline than worrying about adding a minor character like Greatjon.However I do miss him, he is one of Robb’s only bannermen who is not a backstabbing piece of s#!t.

    ya what did happen to him in the show? did the actor just not come back for season 2?

  127. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Is there no love for Brienne’s “…MAN”?

    Gwendoline Christie is just amazing. I want many more interviews from her. And next season is just going to be Brienne-awesome.

  128. Suzaku
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    dmf:
    Brandon Stark,

    I just dont buy that the wildings could catch Qhorin.

    No, but Qhorin can catch the wildlings.

    What might happen is Qhorin could witness Mance’s camp and then encounter Rattleshirt’s party.

    Then he comes up with the idea to have Jon infiltrate the Wildlings, so he labels Jon a deserter and tries to kill him, while a battle breaks out between the two groups. While they sword fight he explains the idea and forces Jon to kill him.

  129. Jack Slap
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Heres the deal with the halfhand..

    I dont see why they would even cast him in the show if Jon killing him was not going to happen.. Think about it. What has he added to the show so far that the Lord Commander could not have done or some other ranger that has already been introduced etc.

  130. Blaarg
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t quite gather what went on in Qarth. Who was crowning himself king, Daxos?

  131. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Blaarg: I dont see why they would even cast him in the show if Jon killing him was not going to happen.. Think about it. What has he added to the show so far that the Lord Commander could not have done or some other ranger that has already been introduced etc.

    Duck Sauce. He got in bed with the warlocks.

  132. paul
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    how did Jorra initially betray Dany? I didnt’ get that..

  133. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Blaarg,

    Yes. That’s why he kills the 11 members of the 13 who are not him and Pyat Pree.

  134. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    paul,

    He was spying on her for Varys, sending him notes about her movements and what she is doing. That’s why Varys has that kid give him a royal pardon for his trying to enslave those poachers.

  135. Vee
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Is there no love for Brienne’s “…MAN”?

    She was PERFECTION in this episode. Her candor and facial expressions when speaking alone with Catelyn? Absolutely priceless.

    I’m going to be rewatching the episode with the West coast, so just a mini-braindump now, but I’m very pleased with how they’ve changed up Jon’s story line. I don’t think they’re sacrificing important elements, just mixing it up to keep people on their toes and provide some (IMHO) much-needed information about the Wildlings so the audience can truly appreciate the magnitude of this stage in Jon’s journey.

    And, again, Rose Leslie is murdering me with every line she utters. In the best possible way. The Ygritte/Jon back and forth was off the charts great.

  136. Megan Tesch
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    paul,

    He was sending Robert information on her

  137. House Snow
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    On Bran and Rickon-I almost believe they didn’t really want people to believe its Bran and Rickon. They really highlighted orphan kids, so I think they just bit the bullet and said noone is going to believe this part and shot it the way they did.

  138. Andy Gavin
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    paul,

    By reporting to Varys in season 1.

  139. paul
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Baramos,

    ahh thank you

  140. Baramos
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Suzaku,

    They corner them in the book…

  141. Tom Hilton
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska,

    Had the same question. That’s just wrong, but it’s a weird mistake to make.

  142. Langkard
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Tom Hilton:
    Craig Leska,

    Had the same question. That’s just wrong, but it’s a weird mistake to make.

    I think they meant to say only 2 episodes left until the finale, which is the usual way HBO does these things. But someone screwed it up.

  143. andrea
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Sense and modernism.
    Loving Ygritte here!… but too busy to say more.

  144. GRRM
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    So two small kids, a retard, and a wildling are able to elude an entire hunting party through the woods? Really? And Theon was a skilled hunter at that

  145. Assunta
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Dany’s Knickers:
    So, I’ll pose the question, because it seems to match with the direction of the series:

    Is Game of Thrones actually better when it deviates from the book but keeps hitting the ‘book milestones’?I agree, it’s deviated fairly significantly… pieces I was hoping to see how D&D would handle (no discussion with the half-hand, and WTF was that in Qarth).However, I think they’ve pulled off genius!They’ve taken a story we know, love, cherish… and made it better only through making US (bookreaders) wonder.They’ve made US, in a way, stop seeing the books alone and start watching the show, as something on it’s own.

    Personally, I think they’ve brought new life to the series.I’ve found that the episodes that have purely followed the book (or close to it) we’re episodes I’ve liked, but not truly embraced.The story in my mind is still better.

    However, the new story, the one with some changes, some different motivations, has me rapt.I’m actually much more intrigued.I think it’s actually far better than getting a visual regurgitation of the book.

    Now i feel dirty…

    Thanks for posting this for me! Thinking that right now the show is doing an excellent job of keeping the moments/scenes I love (San/San, “you know nothing, Jon Snow”) but still keeping me guessing (dragon napping, what the hell is Jamie gonna . . . oh, shit, that’s cold, dude). Finding that I really love the moments that keep me guessing.

  146. Sword-O-Da-Mornin'
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    CGI for Harrenhal was amazing. Loved seeing it that way

  147. Tito
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    I am will to turn crazy if I have to wait until next year for just another 10 episodes. Seasons should last 20 episodes! Starks are getting plucked off left and right. Today Lady Stark received the worst Mother’s day present twice over!

  148. Arthur
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Also… Did The Hound just tell Sansa he was on her side?

    He said something like “You wont mind the hatefull things I do when I’m the only one standing between your beloved king and you”.

    Wasn’t that him basically saying he will protect her??? Hmm maybe I’m reading into it to much…

  149. don draper
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone think that Dagmar Cleftjaw (Theon’s first mate) might actually be Bolton’s bastard in disguise? I’m not sure if they could pull that off, but he is playing a lot of the roles that reek played by suggesting the murder of the miller’s kids

  150. Weirwood
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    So many great scenes and quotable lines (“Did you pull a knife on me in the night?”) I can’t wait for all of the recaps.

    BTW, Hibbard’s is up: http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-7/

  151. Winnie
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    If Rattleshirt has captured Halfhand as well we’re essentially still on track for the most part with Jon’s line.Things may get (there) a bit differently, but not by all that much

    Ah! Good call!
    It makes much more sense to me that Halfhand and gang were simply captured and physically unable to find Jon, as opposed to just being inept…..that still leaves room for an important conversation and “test” to occur… I shall have faith in the writers :)

  152. Angela
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone else think we’ll see Irri’s big death scene she was talking about in an interview in the House of the Undying?

  153. paylor
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska,

    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. WTF? Maybe they are skipping Memorial Day weekend and putting two episodes together for the finale. But you still don’t say it’s two episodes.

  154. PatD
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Theon wakes to find his lover gone, which can’t be a new experience for him.

    ~ James Hibberd.

    Ha!

  155. T-Good
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Something interesting not yet mentioned, Tywin seemed to suggest that arya is posing as a commoner when she is actually a higher born girl. Thoughts?

    Not sure where they’re going with it

  156. Be
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Just noticed that The Hound was dubbed in this episode as well as the previous episode with another voice. Sounds nothing like Rory McCann.

    Wonder why they would do this?

  157. daev3
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Gives me butterflies.

    Glad D&D didn’t write the books and George was adapting… they just look for ways to dick with it. So many great scenes with one medium.
    I laughed at the death of the 13.
    Still hoping for the Q sacrifice but not holding my breath.
    Theon was great.

  158. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Solar,

    Yeah, agreed. Jaime never seemed like the type to me who would kill even a useless, distant member of his family. That kid was 100% innocent on top of it, and did exactly nothing — unlike Bran, who Jaime could have at least said “well, he saw me committing a moral/religious wrong.” I guess Jaime never came off to me as a totally coldblooded asshole, even in his worst moments (i.e. throwing Bran off the tower).

    I’m really not sure about that change. It’s not ruining the episode for me, but… I don’t know, maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

    One might be driven slightly mad being tied up for long periods of time surrounded by enemies. It might alter one’s sense of right and wrong, push one to desperate measures? Just sayin.

  159. Ser Balon Swann
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    I know this is a fairly minor point, but I do think that Ian Whyte redeemed himself as the Mountain, i found him much more intimidating physically and verbally in this episode than I did with episode 4. On another note, I think the scenes are really well done but for some reason I am really freaked out about how they are changing Jon Snows storyline, for some reason I have this (likely foolish) fear that he’s going to turn himself over to the wildlings with out Qhorin ordering him to, which I think is VERY important. I doubt D&D would do that, but then again I don’t know, and with the way Jon has seemed rather…. bumbling in these episodes makes me nervous. Jon’s one of my favorite characters, and I don’t want them to screw up his (already kinda screwy :)) sense of honor.

  160. Mike
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    Meg: Yeah, why would he do that? It makes no sense.

    It seemed very odd that he was even there.

  161. LordStarkington
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    T-Good:
    Something interesting not yet mentioned, Tywin seemed to suggest that arya is posing as a commoner when she is actually a higher born girl. Thoughts?

    Not sure where they’re going with it

    It’s probably just further evidence Tywin is catching onto her, but

    ADWD Spoilers (not worth spoiling yourself over if you haven’t read it, as it’s related to a pretty big plot point)

    Roose Bolton has the same conversation with Theon/Reek when they’re marching north, as Theon says “My lord” and Roose tells him a lowborn person (as “reek” is supposed to be) would say m’lord because they’re too stupid to know there’s two words to it.

  162. JamesL
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Not as exciting as last weeks but still good. Comparing the first half of season 1 to the first half of season 2 I would say that overall season 2 has been better but one thing that this episode makes noticeable is that unlike the first season the second half of this season won’t have the constant building of momentum and increased quality of storytelling that the second half of the first season had. This was more more of a slow burn episode and I’m thinking next weeks might be too. All the of the second half of the first season episodes were epic and filled with game changing events. It should really pick up with the finale 2 episodes of this season though. I’ve seen some people comment before that they don’t want Vanessa Taylor to write episodes next season but IMO she has written 2 most exciting and entertaining episodes this season and her episodes have been by far the most well received by nonreaders.

  163. Josh
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Great episode. I think I loved every scene(save many for the Talsia scene…I still just don’t like her character, nothing towards the actress but she’s very blah, but I do love Richard Madden as Robb so…it stinks haha)

    Cersei/Tyrion scene was terrific. Emotional and wonderful acted. I love when he went up to her and she just looks so shamed and he looks so awkward. It’s just..wow…They both deserve Emmys for that brilliant scene.

    Maester Luwin…ergh heartbreaking.

    Sansa…double heartbreaking. Love that scene with her and Cerssei.

    Arya/Tywin…brilliance in every sense of the word.

    Ygriette + You no nothing John Snow” = me cheering.

    I like what they are doing with Dany. She is so much flawed then book Danny. I love it. She’s so real and Emilia does such a wonderful job.

    Every Jaime scene was flawless. I can’t wait to see where his character goes. Love that scene with Alton and LOVED that scene with Catlynn.

    Seriously this episode was like a lesson in brilliant acting.

    One thing I’ll add, I don’t think Talsia = Jeyne. She didn’t seem super against going to the Crag. She just didn’t think she should. But when Robb smiled back at her, she smiled too…I really hate this storyline, I wish they would have kept the innocent love of Jeyne and not this sort of one dimensional chick.

  164. Suzaku
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    don draper: Does anyone think that Dagmar Cleftjaw (Theon’s first mate) might actually be Bolton’s bastard in disguise? I’m not sure if they could pull that off, but he is playing a lot of the roles that reek played by suggesting the murder of the miller’s kids

    No way. I’m pretty sure it’s just because they’re not going to cast Reek until season 3 and need someone to fill the role in the meantime.

    Why would Bolton send his son to Pyke to pose as a member of Theon’s crew? He wouldn’t have even known Theon would be going to war against the Starks.

  165. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska:
    What’s this nonsense about only 2 episodes left?8,9, 10.That’s three.Right?

    I has an idea! Is it possible they’ve made us a little 2-hour season finale? Does HBO do that?

  166. Ser Balon Swann
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Gay for Cersei,

    every source I’ve checked said there are TEN, not nine, episodes. Last 3 are “The Prince of Winterfell”, “Blackwater”, and “Valar Morghulis”

  167. darquemode
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Much, MUCH better episode than last week!
    The reutrn of Jaime Lannister was long overdue, but thankfully this was his episode both in name and by deed! As I was watching I knew he would kill Alton, but the impact was still huge and it was one of the best scenes of the season bar none!

    Tywin and Arya continue to be amazing together. as do Tyrion and Cersei. I am completely okay with the changes to the Bran/ Rickon storyline so far and I hope it continues to be different from the books long into next year!

    I absolutely love the chemistry between Yrgritte and Jon (or maybe I should say Rose and Kit), but I am not sold on the changes to the story. I guess we got a few more moments of them alone than in the books and that was D&D’s design, but I do not think it has paid off in any meaningful way. Their time alone would have been just as good if not more impactful later in the story with the roles reversed! At least this week’s Jon scenes were improvement over last week’s fiasco of losing Ygritte maybe 100 feet from the best racker the Night’s Wacth has seen this generation.

    I am not a fan of the stolen dragons. This episode did little to win me over to that plot device. The Pyat Pree duplicates killing the Thriteen was a pretty intense scene, but I still think it played out better when Daenerys chose to go to the House of the Undying on her own as a way to take control of her own fate. This theft of her dragons just reenforces how weak and inexperienced she is…. how childlike. Hopefully they will move beyond that aspect of her very soon because I am very tired of her acting like she has in the series!

    It’s been very nice to see random Direwolf sightings the last few episodes! That is how it should havebeen last year! They do not need to be front and center in every scene, but they should appear as often as their owners do.

    Overall this was an incredible episode and one of the best this year…. easily! The return of Jaime added so much to the episode for me and I did not miss Joffrey, Varys or Littlefinger (and his whores) one bit! In fact I would say part of this episode bing as strong as it was is due to not having a very forced feeling Littlefinger scene!

    Here are this week’s episode extras:
    http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/05/game-of-thrones-episode-207-man-without_14.html

  168. Jared
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    In a recent interview, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau claimed that Episode 7 contained one of his favorite scenes that he had ever participated in as an actor. After watching Jaime’s conversation with the unfortunate Alton Lannister (I assume that was the scene, though his later conversation with Catelyn was great as well), I can see why. That was some remarkably eloquent and tense dialogue that told us volumes about his character, and then pulled the rug out at the end. And of course, he got to kick a little ass – despite being chained – there at the end. Jaime probably hasn’t been enough of a factor this season for NCW to get any awards attention (I assume that no one in this fine cast will other than the very-deserving Peter Dinklage, which is a shame) but that scene certainly merits recognition for all the actors and writers who helped bring it to life.

    And before anyone mentions it, I don’t care that the scene wasn’t in the book. I also don’t buy the earlier argument on the Open Thread that D&D have somehow irrecoverably ruined Jaime by making him a kinslayer as well as a Kingslayer. I won’t condemn that line of reasoning, because it’s a perfectly valid opinion, but it’s my opinion is that his actions were entirely consistent with the kind of man Jaime was at this stage in the second book. Jaime saw an opportunity to get back to Cersei, and he acted on it. Alton/Cleos’ death was his means to achieving that end.

  169. S money
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Checked out HBO’s schedule for the next 3 weeks. There is still 3 episodes left :)

  170. WhereTheWildRickonsR
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    I think we’ll find out whether people believe rickon and brans death by the twitter reports

  171. Anne Ansible
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    The rapport between Arya and Tywin is epic.

    Some of my favorite stuff.

  172. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    The Ducksauce twist tripped me out more than Jaime. I wouldn’t really consider that going over to the dark side, or kinslaying… (well, it depends on whether Alton was related through his mother’s side or his “father’s” side, if you catch my drift), but I have a different take on it. I’d get into it right now, but I don’t really want to get into it right now (lucky you).

  173. paylor
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    Susie,

    He still killed two children. Don’t you think he’d be just a tiny bit remorseful about that?

  174. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    I’ve updated the post with my full recap and reactions. My quick review: this episode kicked ass. Some amazing acting and interesting twists and turns.

    Oh, and I seem to be one of the only ones who liked the Qarth stuff. That Pyat Pree is one cold-blooded and creepy mofo.

  175. smahsmah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Really hope they don’t ruin Jaime’s character as he is the best written character in the book’s in my opinion.

    As long as they establish clearly that he did it to get back to Cersei and he shows regret for his actions later, I believe it is recoverable.

    However, I do wonder why they are making Jaime less sympathetic just couple episodes away from season 3 when he becomes a fully fledged major character to root for and then after that in AFFC he is basically the protagonist of that book.

  176. patchy face
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Susie,

    Theon really pisses me off but there at the end, looked like he was in his own personal hell.

  177. Kyron
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    It looks like we might still get that scene between Robb and Cat then when Robb comes back married and Cat has released Jaime.
    Glad that they managed to work that in despite all the changes.

    Although Cat’s motivation is a little messed up if this is when she releases him.
    I think in the books she does it when grief stricken over the news about Bran and Rickon.

  178. T-Good
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Ya I assume they’re trying to show Tywin is figuring out his cupbearer isn’t who she says she is. But I don’t think he will find out who she is because they would be a major deviation, anyways…

    Yep I do remember that from ADWD quite well

  179. patchy face
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Loved the Qarth stuff — thought it was actually a big improvement over the book.

  180. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    Judging by some of these comments, WiC might have to put up a curtain call for Bran, or else risk ruining the surprise.

    This

  181. Royboy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Why hasn’t Tyrion been hinting at the chain?!?!?! That was a huge buildup for me while reading please somebody help me!!!! :( surely they aren’t going to leave out the chain!!

  182. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Lol…

    Looks like HBO pulled the “only 2 episodes left” teaser from the second 11PM airing. This shows it was clearly a mistake that they got word of.

    Every other second airing I have watched showed the preview trailer right after, same as first airing.

    So no worries. There are 3 episodes left, not 2…

  183. Shaggydog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Watched tonites episode for second time and this time no next weeks scene, guess HBO trying to fix that 2 episodes left screwup!!!!!

  184. T-Good
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Kyron,

    Yep, didn’t even think about that. Everything has been flowing well in the bigger picture.

    Like most others I hope the half hand vs Jon dynamic isn’t lost, and I don’t think it will be. They are just taking. Diff route to same end. Like somebody said earlier in another thread.

  185. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: One might be driven slightly mad being tied up for long periods of time surrounded by enemies. It might alter one’s sense of right and wrong, push one to desperate measures? Just sayin.

    I suppose that makes sense. I can see his morals breaking down after a while…I think I’d go a little nuts if something was chafing my neck that long, too.

  186. Greyjoying
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    I really enjoy Charles and Maisie together but Tywin and Arya bonding like this makes absolutely zero sense.

  187. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    NCW was talking about the scene where he kills Alton. He discusses it in the Episode Extras I linked earlier.

    I think that was so in character for Jaime despite some not feeling that way. He saved himself by any means necessary. When he sees a weakness he uses it to his advantage. I just hope it doesn’t come back to bite him in the hand….

  188. LordStarkington
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    Boy, people are really pissed at Theon on Twitter.

  189. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Someone on another forum — I lose track of all the GoT ones I read, I think it was TWOP maybe? Or Westeros.org? one of those — called Jaime ‘badass’ for killing his cousin.

    I cringed. That was badass like all the death in The Hunger Games was badass. Ick.

    I guess I’m just really oversensitive to these kinds of things. I can’t help but think, “But Alton probably had FRIENDS and HOPES and DREAMS and they all ended RIGHT THERE.” Hah.

  190. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Ed’s Theory of the Day: Dorreah betrayed Dany for Gold!

  191. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    WhereTheWildRickonsR:
    Dreamlife,

    I do agree that the Dany story was kinda blah..
    but used that time to grab snacks

    Hehe, welcome to the books! After the House of the Undying and the whole ordeal with obtaining the Unsullied….well, you’ll be eating a ton of snacks dude

  192. if it please
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Langkard,

    but didn’t they already establish in the last episode that they wouldn’t take qhorin captive? just cut off his head if he’s lucky?

  193. Dogmayor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Anyone else worried about the fact that Catelyn asked for Brienne’s sword at the end of her conversation with Jaime? I hope she doesn’t cut his hand off.

  194. T-Good
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Btw,

    Was Anybody else hoping Jaime was going to tell the story of Ned’s brother and father. Or does that happen somewhere else in the story? I can’t remember.

  195. House Snow
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    smahsmah: Really hope they don’t ruin Jaime’s character as he is the best written character in the book’s in my opinion. As long as they establish clearly that he did it to get back to Cersei and he shows regret for his actions later, I believe it is recoverable.However, I do wonder why they are making Jaime less sympathetic just couple episodes away from season 3 when he becomes a fully fledged major character to root for and then after that in AFFC he is basically the protagonist of that book.

    I don’t know I think it will make his change in character better. To this point He seems less bad guy then he did in the big. It wouldn’t even seem like he was having a big transformation. The more bad things he does the more it will seem like he is becoming a better man later on.

  196. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    Anyone else worried about the fact that Catelyn asked for Brienne’s sword at the end of her conversation with Jaime? I hope she doesn’t cut his hand off.

    Too soon for that I think (and hope).

  197. Dogmayor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    if it please,

    In the preview for next week you can see that Qhorin has been captured by the wildlings. They show just a little flash of him as they throw down Jon in front of him. There’ll probably be a pic of it floating around in no time.

  198. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Dany’s Knickers: Is Game of Thrones actually better when it deviates from the book but keeps hitting the ‘book milestones’?

    I don’t think it’s better, just different. Kind of like an equally good alternate ending in a film. I think D&D’s version of the story is every bit as good on screen as GRRM’s is on paper. I have found that some scenes so far played out better in the book, and vice versa. I’m sure when GRRM was writing the tale, he sometimes pondered which of several ways to proceed with a storyline, and this medium has now provided a means of revealing alternate means to the same ends. There are certain things I can’t help but kind of wish they hadn’t changed (i.e. Arya won’t be stabbing The Tickler), but this is just the sort of expansive story that can afford some latitude and be just as enjoyable.

  199. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    T-Good:
    Btw,

    Was Anybody else hoping Jaime was going to tell the story of Ned’s brother and father.Or does that happen somewhere else in the story? I can’t remember.

    Been a while since I’ve read as well, but I think it would fit during Brienne and Jaime’s travels for him to tell her that story

  200. Hilda
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Awesome episode!
    I understand everyones being upset that there are deviations from the book. Some have worked even better others not as great as the book such as the Jon stuff but it really isn’t that bad.
    We all knew there were going to have to be changes. No since in getting that pissed off about it. Unless you want to pay the production costs,then by all means write a check to HBO!

    No,I have not been a fan of the beyond the wall stuff. But I must say that Kit and Rose were simply amazing!

    Dany and her mishaps were to me very boring in the books. Her story has been pretty boring here too. Sad,cause Emilia is great!

    Lena was wonderful here too.
    Cersai’s speech to Tyrion was great.

    Sansa…ugh…I hated that moment when she woke up and found her sheets bloody…felt her dred and fear. I loved the change with Shae!
    For the first time I actually liked Shae.

    By far the best change has been Arya/Tywin! The exchanges between them have been brillent!
    That for me is the best story! Can’t wait for the end! Team Arya all the way!

    I knew the winterfell story was gonna be the hardest! It was!

  201. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    I don’t know… Just a cool scene in the future when Tywin learns who she truly is, and you see the realization dawn on his face would be worth it.

    Reminds me of a scene in the old Clint Eastwood movie “Firefox” when a Russian Colonel realizes who Clint Eastwood really is and what he’s there for… It’s awesome. “No!! He CANNOT be here for that!!!”

    Greyjoying:
    I really enjoy Charles and Maisie together but Tywin and Arya bonding like this makes absolutely zero sense.

  202. Lexyvil
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Honestly, I don’t mind the new Gregor casting, even though the previous one was better.

  203. T-Good
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Dogmayor,

    Im pretty sure it is right from the book. if i recall correctly next she is going to ask him for his word that if she releases him he will do right by her and tell Tyrion to send her arya and Sansa

  204. Mimsy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    All of the boner jokes had me rolling. Torturing virgin Jon is so much fun.

    Brienne’s MAN was out of left field and hilarious.. I had to rewind and watch that. Jaime saying “Where did you find that BEAST?” made me LOL. Those two are going to be AWESOME!!!

    I was surprised that the Hound was so forward in his ability to protect Sansa from her King. I immediately thought back to King Targaryen and the mauling of his wife. Would the Hound really intercept Joffrey’s abuses? Such a San/San moment right there. =)

    Rickon continues to scare me.. in a good way. He’s either going to be a total psycho or the biggest badass of the series.

  205. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Yeah, that would have been cool.

    T-Good:
    Btw,

    Was Anybody else hoping Jaime was going to tell the story of Ned’s brother and father.Or does that happen somewhere else in the story? I can’t remember.

  206. Dave
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    I was just watching the promo for next week on youtube and I’m positive they show Jon being forced onto the ground next to Qhorin. It’s probably only a second where his face is visible.

  207. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    I really liked this whole episode. I don’t mind the changes from the book. I actually liked them…

    My only disappointment is D&D not giving us a good Jaime escape scene. This season lacks action. I know from watching behind the scenes stuff that D&D hired an actual swordsmaster. I thought for sure, by how Nik talked about this episode in interviews, that we’d see an awesome hack and slash sword fight scene where Jaime kills 13 Northmen singlehandedly.

    I miss Khal Drogo. I miss seeing a badass warrior ripping people’s tongues out through their throat. I really think the absence of a warrior like Drogo leaves a void for fans like me.

    I hope when they cast Strong Belwas, they give us another badass shirtless barbarian-like warrior. I don’t want him to be a fatass. I was wishing Jaime would satisfy my primal need for some nasty sword fighting but it didn’t happen.

    D&D please give us a badass warrior like Drogo. (Strong Belwas). =P

    Okay I ranted enough…

  208. RoBBB
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Joseph,

    So Episode 10 it’s not called Valhar Morgulis?

  209. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    anyone else think that the miller’s sons are the same orphan boys that Bran sent to that grey-haired man (that Theon punches) a few episodes back?

  210. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    I really liked this whole episode.I don’t mind the changes from the book.I actually liked them…

    My only disappointment is D&D not giving us a good Jaime escape scene.This season lacks action.I know from watching behind the scenes stuff that D&D hired an actual swordsmaster.I thought for sure, by how Nik talked about this episode in interviews, that we’d see an awesome hack and slash sword fight scene where Jaime kills 13 Northmen singlehandedly.

    I miss Khal Drogo.I miss seeing a badass warrior ripping people’s tongues out through their throat.I really think the absence of a warrior like Drogo leaves a void for fans like me.

    I hope when they cast Strong Belwas, they give us another badass shirtless barbarian-like warrior.I don’t want him to be a fatass.I was wishing Jaime would satisfy my primal need for some nasty sword fighting but it didn’t happen.

    D&D please give us a badass warrior like Drogo. (Strong Belwas).=P

    Okay I ranted enough…

    To be fair my friend, that moment is the only time Drogo actually fights someone. Crown for a king was badass, yes, but all Drogo did was dump a pot.

  211. Royboy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Tyrion saying nothing about the chain…anyone else devastated? Surely to god they arent cutting the chain!

  212. T-Good
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    Yea that’s what I figure will happen, cheers to another great episode

  213. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    anyone else think that the miller’s sons are the same orphan boys that Bran sent to that grey-haired man (that Theon punches) a few episodes back?

    I think they deliberately inserted the orphan scene at Winterfell to establish a defendable storyline once Rickon and Bran are revealed to be still alive.

  214. Dan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Derpstradamus, yeah that is exactly what I am thinking. They seem to be removing one of the best parts of the book with Qhorin and Jon retreating through the wilds. “Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?”

  215. Carolina H
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    i am happy with the san/san scenes!!! at last we saw sandor being mean to sansa, instead of the softer version from the show (all right, he didn’t put his sword against her neck, but it was still wonderful) and saying how he would protect her- it reminded me of the dragonknight who was in love with his king/brother’s queen… i also liked shae now, and sophie and rory were as always great!!
    jon/yrgritte, really funny!! and don’t like theon much now. poor cat, the north is really going to hate her after next week, but her acting tonight was awesome. and jaime, yes he killed his cousin, but i love the guy, his lines are so cool! i’m scared of pyat pree and feel so sad for ser jorah….
    can’t believe there’s only 3 more weeks to go!! :(

  216. Dan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Royboy, they briefly mentioned the chain in one of the earlier episodes. So it should be showing up.

  217. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Is there no love for Brienne’s “…MAN”?

    I freakin’ LOVED line of Brienne’s, and didn’t Catelyn NAIL IT this episode? Fairely was especially powerful IMO.

  218. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Royboy:
    Tyrion saying nothing about the chain…anyone else devastated? Surely to god they arent cutting the chain!

    I could have sworn he was going to say something to Cersei along the lines of “Well, I’ve taken precautions that will aid us against Stannis’ ships.” Even if it had been something like that without revealing the chain itself, I would have been happy.

  219. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Jon Connington:
    no one else is disappointed in jon not warging? and halfhand realizing they were found after jon tells him his visions with the eagle? resulting in the dule?

    im mad disappointed…

    Maybe they’re saving some of the magic/wargy stuff till next season?

  220. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Dan:
    Royboy,they briefly mentioned the chain in one of the earlier episodes.So it should be showing up.

    Perhaps my mead has gone to my mind, but I don’t recall when this happened. Do you remember what ep?

  221. paylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I’m liking the Qarth storyline too. Except for the fact they have apparently killed Dany’s entire Khalasar. It does actually give some purpose for her to go to the House of the Undying.

  222. HumMis1349
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    I really liked this whole episode.I don’t mind the changes from the book.I actually liked them…

    My only disappointment is D&D not giving us a good Jaime escape scene.This season lacks action.I know from watching behind the scenes stuff that D&D hired an actual swordsmaster.I thought for sure, by how Nik talked about this episode in interviews, that we’d see an awesome hack and slash sword fight scene where Jaime kills 13 Northmen singlehandedly.

    I miss Khal Drogo.I miss seeing a badass warrior ripping people’s tongues out through their throat.I really think the absence of a warrior like Drogo leaves a void for fans like me.

    I hope when they cast Strong Belwas, they give us another badass shirtless barbarian-like warrior.I don’t want him to be a fatass.I was wishing Jaime would satisfy my primal need for some nasty sword fighting but it didn’t happen.

    D&D please give us a badass warrior like Drogo. (Strong Belwas).=P

    Okay I ranted enough…

    Strong Belwas needs to be fat, it forms a protective layer for his vital organs.

  223. Royboy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Dan:
    Royboy,they briefly mentioned the chain in one of the earlier episodes.So it should be showing up.

    Yes please enlighten us

  224. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    GRRM: They corner them in the book…

      

    They had a 6 or 7 hour head start, so it’s plausible. Plus in the book they did some fancy backtracking and walking through streams to throw the hounds off their scents.

  225. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    T-Good:
    Something interesting not yet mentioned, Tywin seemed to suggest that arya is posing as a commoner when she is actually a higher born girl. Thoughts?

    Not sure where they’re going with it

    This one thinks that Tywin suspects she’s a high-born bastard girl or something like that, but has bigger fish to fry so doesn’t think about it too much. It is curious though that Arya seems to be getting a little too bold, hope it doesn’t get her into even MORE trouble.

  226. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    That’s true but there are zero moments like that this season. I know this is a Drama series and not about action. But I want to see some warriors fighting. Blackwater will be good but I want some one on one stuff…..

    I guess I’m being greedy. I am a AD&D and World of Warcraft nerd. I want some epic warrior action… Gimme gimme! Lol…

  227. Mimsy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Is it me or does anyone else scream INFECTION whenever Talisa comes into a scene? Her dirty/bloody sleeves and week old hand rags creep me out. It’s a miracle anyone survives her nursing.

  228. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12: Perhaps my mead has gone to my mind, but I don’t recall when this happened.Do you remember what ep?

    I don’t recall the chain ever being mentioned either and I have been waiting for it….

  229. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Be:
    Just noticed that The Hound was dubbed in this episode as well as the previous episode with another voice. Sounds nothing like Rory McCann.

    Wonder why they would do this?

    Is his accent super thick?

  230. Gatorfisch
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I think next week is Nik’s favorite. Not this one. Loved his reaction to Brienne…for a few reasons!

  231. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    I’ve noticed a lack of comments regarding Alfie Allen’s portrayal of Theon Greyjoy, and with every episode of late I’m more impressed by him. His character is quite a complicated one, and it’s not getting any easier. It should be noted that Alfie is doing a truly incredible job.

  232. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Gatorfisch:
    Arthur,

    I think next week is Nik’s favorite.Not this one.Loved his reaction to Brienne…for a few reasons!

    Nope, it was this episode.

  233. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    HumMis1349: Strong Belwas needs to be fat, it forms a protective layer for his vital organs.

    Agreed.
    If Strong Belwas is even cast he needs to be huge and fat and by all apprearances at first he needs to come off as an idiot – NOT a warrior!

  234. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Gay for Cersei:
    I’ve noticed a lack of comments regarding Alfie Allen’s portrayal of Theon Greyjoy, and every episode of late I’m more impressed by him.His character is quite a complicated one, and it’s not getting any easier.It should be noted that Alfie is doing a truly incredible job.

    I agree. I should have mentioned his performance, as he is really nailing the part. I think, for me at least, the reason I neglected to mention him, is just the feeling of utter disgust I get off the character. Yes, that’s the intention, I know…he’s just so good at being bad it makes me feel guilty saying I like what he is doing. :)

  235. Rinso
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    To be honest, I’m not thrilled. A lot of the moments didn’t work for me and a huge number of scenes are already ridiculously out of character thanks to the butterfly effect of countless tiny changes.

    Honestly, so far I’m kinda disappointed with Season 2. The first one was better. The changes irk me most, but there are moments where the writing is just weak regardless of its faithfulness.

  236. Pyat Dean Pelton
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    Jon Connington,

    for me it was more like
    *giggles like a little schoolgirl*

  237. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Honestly the lack of “epic” action is exactly what I LOVE about ASoIaF and Game of Thrones. The small quiet moments speak louder than any action scene to me and mean more to the overall story.

    On top of that the sword fights in the series have been hit and miss frankly. They have a much higher percentage of getting the heavy drama right than they do of getting the action scenes right.

  238. Andrew
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    Well, Bran did explicitly state that the two Winterfell orphans were at that farm when they first came upon it.

  239. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    LordDavos12,

    That’s true but there are zero moments like that this season.I know this is a Drama series and not about action.But I want to see some warriors fighting.Blackwater will be good but I want some one on one stuff…..

    I guess I’m being greedy.I am a AD&D and World of Warcraft nerd.I want some epic warrior action… Gimme gimme! Lol…

    Nothing wrong with being a WoW nerd. Don’t worry; as I’m sure you know, the best Jaime scenes are yet to come…not necessarily this season of course. On a side note, will Diablo III consume your life this week as it will mine?

  240. Mimsy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Rewatching the episode. Brienne’s line, “Who wants to die defending a Lannister?” Oh, Brienne. :) I love how she said “die.”

  241. andrew
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Arthur: I hope when they cast Strong Belwas, they give us another badass shirtless barbarian-like warrior. I don’t want him to be a fatass. I was wishing Jaime would satisfy my primal need for some nasty sword fighting but it didn’t happen.

    This is exactly what i hope they *don’t*do

    the great thing about Belwas, and I love me some Strong Belwas, is that everyone underestimates him for a big dumb idiot with a ridiculous vest.

    But we all know differently from Mereen

    Plus, can you imagine a badass warrior like drogo screaming “LOCUSTS!!!!” with unrestrained glee???

  242. T-Good
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Anybody see Larry’s review yet? Let me just say that his friend gave him some faulty information..Seemed like his friend either doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or that his friend tried to not spoil anything and just botched it haha

  243. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    One of my favorite episodes ever.

    I’m in love with Rose’s Ygritte. Her chemistry with Kit is AMAZING! And Michelle Fairley was brilliant as usual. Good to have Jamie back as well.

    I really disliked Dany’s scenes last episode, but her scenes tonight were creepy and suspenseful!

    And I enjoyed Talisa! I liked her introduction scene in Ep. 4, but wasn’t a fan of the dialogue between her and Robb last week. This one was much better. And Oona is beautiful!

    I miss my Gendry, though. And Varys as well!

    But yeah, fantastic episode.

  244. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    Jared: Jaime saw an opportunity to get back to Cersei, and he acted on it. Alton/Cleos’ death was his means to achieving that end.

    It was completely unnecessary for him to kill Alton though – why not just keep talking when the Karstark kid told them not to or make a bunch of noise until Torrhen Karstark came in to intervene? He seemed quick enough to interrupt Jaime and Alton conversing so I find it hard to believe Jaime had to beat someone to death to get the guy’s attention a second time. (And why is there only one person guarding Jaime Lannister? Really? That seems totally unbelievable.)

    The problem for me with killing Alton was that the cold-bloodedness Jaime shows there is out of character. I don’t mean that Jaime isn’t capable of really evil, horrible things because he obviously he is, but he’s never read to me as someone who can cold-bloodedly plot a murder while chilling with the guy he’s about to kill. That’s Tywin’s speed, not Jaime’s and the books make a point of telling us that Jaime is dissimilar to Tywin in that regard. He doesn’t think things through and plot like that to gain someone’s trust before he kills them. he just kills them.

    I totally, totally buy him killing the Karstark boy to get the keys and get out of there, but killing Alton makes no sense. It’s not impulsive (as so many of Jaime’s actions are) but calculated, and it’s also unnecessary, and most importantly it seems totally out of character for Jaime.

  245. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    RoBBB,

    There are 3 episodes left not 2. None are more than the usual hour long format. The HBO shcedule has them listed and Valar Morghulis is the title for the finale.
    http://www.hbo.com/#/schedule

    Or for an easier to navigate and read schedule…
    http://www.thefutoncritic.com/showatch/game-of-thrones/listings/

  246. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: It was completely unnecessary for him to KILL Alton though – why not just keep talking when the Karstark kid told them NOT to, till he came in to intervene? The cold-bloodedness of killing Alton really ISN’T Jaime; it’s Tywin. And the books tell us over and over again that Jaime didn’t inherit that characteristic of Tywin’s. I totally, totally buy him killing the Karstark boy to get the keys and get out of there, but killing Alton makes no sense. It’s not impulsive (as so many of Jaime’s actions are) but calculated, and it’s also unnecessary. And that’s why it bothers me the same way that Jaime seeking Ned’s approval in season 1 for killing Aerys bothered me: it’s out of character.

    I agree with you. I also don’t understand why “Jaime would do it to get back at Cersei.” At this point, it does not make sense.

  247. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Too bad we didn’t get to see Deepwood Motte this week or we’d have gotten to see the jet-setting Littlefinger during his 2-hour layover before his flight back to Kings Landing…..

  248. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    andrew: This is exactly what i hope they *don’t*do

    the great thing about Belwas, and I love me some Strong Belwas, is that everyone underestimates him for a big dumb idiot with a ridiculous vest.

    But we all know differently from Mereen


    Plus,can you imagine a badass warrior like drogo screaming “LOCUSTS!!!!” with unrestrained glee???

    You sir, made me laugh out loud. And also think of Marcus Fenix.

  249. Matt Chung
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    This thread is for people who’ve read the books, Meg.

  250. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    Ha!
    Best comment of the night!

    I am so glad we did not get more over-active and over-sharing Littlefinger this week.

  251. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    Arthur: I hope when they cast Strong Belwas, they give us another badass shirtless barbarian-like warrior. I don’t want him to be a fatass.

    Gotta be a fatass, man. Gotta be.

    andrew: The great thing about Belwas, and I love me some Strong Belwas, is that everyone underestimates him for a big dumb idiot with a ridiculous vest.

    Hear, hear!

  252. Ducky
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Well, that was painful. Benioff and Weiss completely butchered Jaime’s character by having him kill his made-up for the show cousin. It’s not like you have to make stuff up to show that Jaime is not a fluff bunny – being a sister fucker and little boy defenestrator already shows that Jaime is not on the side of the angels. Making him a kinslayer to boot is overkill. Also, he didn’t have to kill that hapless and starstruck kid to get the guards attention.

    And as the cherry on the crappy sundae the vows scene was a pale shadow of the chapter in the book.

    This makes me dread how they are going to muck up Jaime’s ASOS storyline.

  253. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Mike:
    Too bad we didn’t get to see Deepwood Motte this week or we’d have gotten to see the jet-setting Littlefinger during his 2-hour layover before his flight back to Kings Landing…..

    I ROFL.

  254. Kib
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    new Mountain is suck!!! Sandor look more scary than him!

  255. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Matt Chung:
    Meg,
    this thread is for people who’ve read the books, Meg.

    Huh? I’ve read them. Twice.

  256. Alex
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    has anyone seen Larry’s review someone lied to him about the whole bran and rickon thing and telling him the direwolves are died lol

  257. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    shit that was a good episode. Things I liked:

    1. Arya vs Tywin
    2. You know nothing Jon Snow
    3. SanSan
    4. tyrion ALMOST comforting cersei
    5. Robb and Volantis Woman

  258. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    Kib:
    new Mountain is suck!!!Sandor look more scary than him!

    You know, I was ready to hate on the new Lurch-like Mountain, as well. But his conversation with Tywin was fine. Good enough that, when I imagined it being with the original Gregor, I couldn’t picture it being as good. Season 1 Gregor seemed always out-of-control mad/angry/scary and hardly even capable of understanding the orders that Tywin gave Lurch, tonight.

    Pleasantly surprised.

  259. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    Kib:
    new Mountain is suck!!!Sandor look more scary than him!

    To be fair, Sandor is supposed to look scarier in terms of looks…not counting size.

  260. ser lyonel the laughing storm
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Dark Sister referenced but Jaime’s a kinslayer y’all crackers caught me trippin

  261. Syrio
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    On man, the scenes with Jon and Ygritte are just great. In contrast the Robb/Talisa scenes are just so much weaker.

    Also Lena Headey has been great all season and was great again tonight.

    Also loves the Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys conversation between Arya and Tywin. I love it when they find ways to insert some history background into conversations.

  262. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    Yes me and my friends will take off work to play Diablo III lol…

    On the whole Strong Belwas thing… I just want D&D to satisfy my demographic (20yr-30yr olds). It really isn’t important is Belwas has a belly. I am just saying we need some warrior scenes (medevil weapon fighting scenes). We have plenty of drama, plenty of complex storyline, plenty of nudity and sex, but we haven’t had any warrior action. Last season we had the Jamie Vs Ned build up. We had Dothraki stuff and Drogo. This season we just get a bunch of beheadings and we got to see Brienne kill 2 knights in 3.5 seconds. I know there is a lot on the plate D&D has to serve us already. But is it to much to ask for one epic swordfight once or twice a season?

    I guess I’m just upset because I was soooo looking forward to seeing an awesome choreographed swordfight scene were Jaime hacks his way through 13 Northmen. And it never happened =[.

    There are individual warrior aspects to this already hugely complex story and I just feel they are being forgotten.

  263. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Maybe I just took something else entirely out of the scenes with Jaime tonight, but I got the distinct impression that he was expecting to be killed or to escape, and that he didn’t care which it ended up being. His line about not being suited for captivity said to me that Jaime essentially felt like it was now or never, and if he wasn’t able to get away he’d make damn sure they didn’t lock him back up by being totally ruthless (which he was). I can see why NCW enjoyed the scene so much, because it really shows just how broken Jaime feels about who he is and what he is and isn’t capable of. Jaime may be many things, but a prisoner isn’t one of them, so in that context his desperate escape attempt came across as a kamikaze-ish venture from the get-go. Little does he know…

  264. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Damryn of Dorne:

    4. tyrion ALMOST comforting cersei

    Amazing scene from Peter. You could FEEL the “I’m almost going to hug her”.

  265. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    Jon Connington:
    no one else is disappointed in jon not warging? and halfhand realizing they were found after jon tells him his visions with the eagle? resulting in the dule?

    im mad disappointed…

    I’m extremely annoyed at this too, not because “they changed something”. They’ve changed lots of things this year and most of it I’m okay with — and some of it has been decidedly better (Arya + Tywin makes for a much better show than Arya +Roose Bolton — and it’s not even remotely close).

    The problem with the changes they made to Jon’s arc this year is that they have made the main hero of the books out to look like a bumbler, instead. They have not been “true” to Jon’s character. THAT is the problem with the changes. Moreover, it’s not as strong a story. They have 7 episodes next year to show Jon and Ygritte. We didn’t need more of that now.

    What they have also done is not establish that Jon is a warg. Given the importance of this in ADwD, my worry is that they are going to make a major change in the book they can’t easily write themselves out of.

    As for WHY they made this change with Jon, I think it comes down to cost: they spent their motherlode of CGI on Blackwater. They didn’t have enough left for Ghost in the mountains, fighting an eagle and for a look at a camp of wildlings, giants and mammoths.

    So we got Jon+Ygritte instead.

    This, in and of itself, is not that big a deal. The problem is that along the way, they have removed the reveal of Jon being a warg — and worse — have turned the one larger than life hero in the novels into a bumbling fool, who is not a warg, does not find the cloak with the obsidian arrows and knife blades, can be snuck up on and knocked unconscious by an old man, is not requested to go ranging — but instead begs to do it like the kid on the Wall with Benjen — who DISOBEYS a direct order to kill Ygritte, and who can’t keep her close even after she’s escaped once already, and who gets surprised and surrounded by a group of wildlings.

    THAT is the part that isn’t okay. Changing the story is one thing; changing the character? Especially one as important to the series as Jon is — is quite another.

  266. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Andrew: Well, Bran did explicitly state that the two Winterfell orphans were at that farm when they first came upon it.

    Okay the same orphans that Bran sent there, right? I just like that little parallel that they are in the wrong place, wrong time partially because of Bran.

    @Steel Wind
    I think they pushed up Jon and his spearwife because “This season is the season of the love story” – David and Dan. Blech.

  267. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    Anyone else starting to hate Dany? She pisses me right off.

  268. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Mike:
    Anyone else starting to hate Dany? She pisses me right off.

    I’ve never enjoyed her. I know some people do, and I don’t want to bag on anyone, but in the quilt that is ASoIaF, she is the poop patch.

  269. J
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    The Spice King was too fierce for this world. ;_;

  270. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    And speaking of changes…

    No hiding in the crypts? Or are we to guess they went back there?

  271. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    I can live with the new Mountain I guess. But if Conan is available for the season where Viper vs Mountain goes down I really hope they get Conan.

    The Mountain is another one of my favorite warriors. He wears armor that is so thick and heavy no other man can even try to wear it. The new Mountain doesn’t look muscular at all, he just looks tall.

    Also, all the major houses have their little mystical advantages.

    Targaryen is Dragons
    Starks is Direwolves
    Baratheons is Mel
    Lannisters is The Mountain

    That’s all the Lannisters have. So at least make him completely badass.

    Also, let’s face it. After the Viper poisons him. He gets sent to a dungeon and some “nacromancer” type guy basicaly keeps him alive (or brings him from the dead) and he becomes basically a Flesh Golem.

  272. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    WIC I love what they are doing in Qarth, I love to be surprised and it is a definite improvement over what Martin wrote. The motiviation for Dany to go to the House of the Undying seemed sketchy to me in the book. I also loved how the thirteen or the twelve, lol, get taken out and also Jorah trying to kill the Warlock but guess what it was an illusion, all very cool. Really don’t get why people are not more excited about this change especially since most people found Dany’s story in CLOK boring. Very nice as a reader to be surprised, loving it.

    Also I was totally fine with Jaime killing his cousin. He has always done what he has to do to survive. That is who he is and yes he does change on his journey that is coming up but not yet. So for people to say he would never kill his kin is ridiculous. He is loyal to Cersei, Tyrion and his father and that is it. If someone is in his way he will do what he has to do get move through them. For goodenss sakes people he shoved a ten year old boy out of a tower hoping to kill him and you think he has some sort of moral compass, that is just silly.

    I cannot wait to see the reaction of the non-book readers to the final scene. I was reading the book on a flight to NY, years ago, and I freaked out completely, just couldn’t believe it. So I hope everybody who has not read the books freaks out as well.

    But the real reason this was my favorite episode of the season were the incredible scenes and incredible acting tonight, Jaime and his cousins, Jaime and Catelyn, Tyrion and Cersei, and Arya and Tynin, wow all of those scenes were acted at the highest level, just so interesting and intense, especially when Jaime was talking to Catelyn about Ned’s honor, wow that was brutal and awesome!!!

    So best episode of the season for me and it is only going to get better!! Yes I also loved Jon and Ygritte and again don’t mind the changes.

  273. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Yeah, I think Conan would be a better fit for the Viper fight. We’ll see what happens.

  274. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:
    And speaking of changes…

    No hiding in the crypts? Or are we to guess they went back there?

    I’m guessing that will be revealed later. If not, a lot of people will be pissed.

  275. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    I just hate how they make Dany whine, bitch, and demand things from people and then when she doesn’t get her way she acts just like her brother did. You’d think from seeing him act that way and how petty it was shed learn not to be like him.

    Hope last episode was the last episode I see Dany acting like her brother… Hopefully. Besides that I love Dany <3

  276. Eusta
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:43 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: I’m extremely annoyed at this too, not because “they changed something”. They’ve changed lots of things this year and most of it I’m okay with — and some of it has been decidedly better (Arya + Tywin makes for a much better show than Arya +Roose Bolton — and it’s not even remotely close).
    The problem with the changes they made to Jon’s arc this year is that they have made the main hero of the books out to look like a bumbler, instead. They have not been “true” to Jon’s character. THAT is the problem with the changes. Moreover, it’s not as strong a story. They have 7 episodes next year to show Jon and Ygritte. We didn’t need more of that now.
    What they have also done is not establish that Jon is a warg. Given the importance of this in ADwD, my worry is that they are going to make a major change in the book they can’t easily write themselves out of.
    As for WHY they made this change with Jon, I think it comes down to cost: they spent their motherlode of CGI on Blackwater. They didn’t have enough left for Ghost in the mountains, fighting an eagle and for a look at a camp of wildlings, giants and mammoths.
    So we got Jon+Ygritte instead.
    This, in and of itself, is not that big a deal. The problem is that along the way, they have removed the reveal of Jon being a warg — and worse — have turned the one larger than life hero in the novels into a bumbling fool, who is not a warg, does not find the cloak with the obsidian arrows and knife blades, can be snuck up on and knocked unconscious by an old man, is not requested to go ranging — but instead begs to do it like the kid on the Wall with Benjen — who DISOBEYS a direct order to kill Ygritte, and who can’t keep her close even after she’s escaped once already, and who gets surprised and surrounded by a group of wildlings.
    THAT is the part that isn’t okay. Changing the story is one thing; changing the character? Especially one as important to the series as Jon is — is quite another.

    Can’t agree more.

  277. Adenhart
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    Judging by some of these comments, WiC might have to put up a curtain call for Bran, or else risk ruining the surprise.

    This, let’s pay our respects for the non readers.

  278. if it please
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    no it’s in there, the last shot of the season they filmed was the 4 of them exiting the crypts.

  279. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    @ Mike – I think Dany is at her best when she has a group of loyals to lead. I’m sure when she starts freeing slaves left and right she will be much more tolerable, because she uses her “annoying fiery attitude” on actual jerks –like the slave masters. Meereen was basically Dany adapting to the Dothraki all over again, only Meereen is a real shitbag of a culture (still hated how GRRM phoned that worldbuilding in…)

    I will say that Emilia’s acting just isn’t doing anything for me. I keep seeing the ACTING! gears churning in every scene she’s in. It’s not natural.

  280. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    Clob:
    If Rattleshirt has captured Halfhand as well we’re essentially still on track for the most part with Jon’s line.Things may get (there) a bit differently, but not by all that much.

    Oh my god if this is where they’re going I would totally be ok with it.

  281. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    F*ck Yeah Yoren:
    Oh god, with Jaime’s murder of Alton, and the murder of the boys being Theon’s doing and not Reek’s, I don’t know if I can forgive them.

    In the book the idea was Reek’s, in the show they gave the idea to Dagmer, big whoop. Theon allowed it in both scenarios. Also, they established that Alton is a pretty distant relative so it’s not really a big deal to me.

  282. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    He saw a weakness in their containment and he took advantage of it. To me it was completely in character for him to do so – relative or not. Jaime is not so honroable that he would accept his own death over the cost of a lesser Lannister.

    His code of honor does not extend to everyone in the realm.. He has always considered himself and his family better than (and worth more than) most others. He ceratinly would protect his imediate family, he would not cheat in a 1 vs 1 sword fight and he would not let verbal attacks on him go on challenged, bu he is not the very walking, talking, sword-fighting definition of Chivalry incarnate.

    It was not about being ruthless like some have said, it was about self-preservation period.

  283. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Quarth stuff is one of my favorite plot lines from this season. It gives me hope that D&D can make out something interesting even from the waste of time known as Meereen.

    You should do a curtain call for the Spice King.

  284. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    She was my least favorite story arc in the books and even though I felt they improved her last season…. this season she is far worse than even in the books.

  285. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Jon Connington:
    no one else is disappointed in jon not warging? and halfhand realizing they were found after jon tells him his visions with the eagle? resulting in the dule?

    im mad disappointed…

    If they don’t get around to some warg action soon, a little part of me will die. lol
    But seriously, it will be the biggest letdown for me.

  286. andrea
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets: Jaime may be many things, but a prisoner isn’t one of them,

    neither a cripple. I mean, now, at least with Alton´s killing, Jaime can be rightly called a murderer with no honor, as Wic said: a “Kinslayer”. Killing Aerys, a cruel king who was hated by everyone, it´s nothing for him ( he´s just gets tired of explaining this to people and nobody wants to admit it). What he did to Bran was awful but Bran´s not dead (still awful ofc) and Aerys death don´t count for Jaime because it was some kind of justice for him. But for this one there are just horrible excuses (like with Bran). I think this change is a good change: we all know how Jaime will pay later on. He said it in this episode: if I can not do what I do, I would be nothing. Oh man, if you only knew…

    ThePinkDragon: maybe someone can convince me otherwise

    Did I?

  287. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    I’ve come to accept that the shades of gray on this show are going to be blended a little differently. They add white to some characters’ palettes (like Cersei and Tywin) and black to others (Jaime and Theon). If people are upset by this then perhaps they cling too tightly to the belief that characters are locked into a single shade that they remember at the end of ADWD. Wait until the arcs are finished, like, completely. In the meantime, the shades will always be in flux, even after a character’s death.

  288. the goat
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Another outstanding episode, and wow those last two scenes were so fucking amazing!

    As far as Jaime bein a kinslayer, yeah its a significant change, but I think they’ve pretty well established that he “could care less about what people think of me.”

    And its premature to moan and groan about the Jon changes until we see how it plays out. Rose was fantastic tonight.

    The one thing I am kinda sad about is that the speeding up of Jaime’s release meant that we lost Cat’s motivation of learning about Bran & Rickon, but I liked the way they handled it.

  289. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Mike,

    I can live with the new Mountain I guess.But if Conan is available for the season where Viper vs Mountain goes down I really hope they get Conan.

    The Mountain is another one of my favorite warriors.He wears armor that is so thick and heavy no other man can even try to wear it.The new Mountain doesn’t look muscular at all, he just looks tall.

    Also, all the major houses have their little mystical advantages.

    Targaryen is Dragons
    Starks is Direwolves
    Baratheons is Mel
    Lannisters is The Mountain

    That’s all the Lannisters have.So at least make him completely badass.

    Also, let’s face it.After the Viper poisons him.He gets sent to a dungeon and some “nacromancer” type guy basicaly keeps him alive (or brings him from the dead) and he becomes basically a Flesh Golem.

    The Lannisters had MUCH more than just the Mountain!

    Tywin is the most brilliant military mind in generations and Jaime is the best swordsman of his generation. In addition Joffrey is the biggest pratt in many generations, although I’m not sure that counts on the positives list.

    The Mountain was their enforcer but hardly their ace in the hole.

    All that said, Conan for his battle with the Red Viper would be okay by me too.

    I think they need to change this new Mountain’s armor. Beef up the shoulders some. If they do that I will be 100% okay with this Ian Whyte guy. His voice is deep and gravelly (how I imagined Gregor’s)… he is tall enough and frankly he may be a better actor than Conan was. I’m just not sure since I never saw Conan act last season…. he just glared angrily.

  290. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:08 am | Permalink

    darquemode,

    I agree with you totally. I wasn’t saying The Mountain was all the Lannisters had. I was saying The Mountain was all the Lannisters had as far as a fantasy element is concerned.

    Know what I mean???

  291. HumMis1349
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Tall people are a fantasy element?

  292. Leland's Axe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    I’m coming to come out and say it: this is a stronger piece of narrative fiction than the books. Nearly every change has improved or tightened the original storyline. The books are somewhat better at establishing characters and world-building, but the difference isn’t as great as you would expect between thousands of pages and 17 hours (and counting) of television.

    I’m so grateful to D&D, and hope we get to see at least four full seasons (If they can’t finish the series, I’d rather they end with Storm).

  293. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    I was prepared to hate what they did to Jaime. But I simply can’t ignore how wonderful that scene was. It was the best of the season and one of the best in the entire series. It seems a crime that they can’t nominate NCW’s work in this episode. It was Emmy worthy.

  294. Matt Chung
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    Meg: Huh? I’ve read them. Twice.

    Then it should be pretty obvious who’s who :|

  295. oh-bb
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    I’m all fine with Jaime killing Alton. I think that was the whole point of the squiring conversation. Being a squire is about serving no matter what, right? And Jaime made a bit of a deal about how good at it Alton was — at service, at being, well, a tool. Jaime was also handling his captivity pretty well, as well as possible, but underneath that there has to be some emotion and desperation. Unless they’re going to change him COMPLETELY, we know Jaime feels, and deeply. Just as he did feel regret at what he did to Bran. But he felt it was necessary.

    He loves Cersei. He already threatened, in show, to kill the entire world for her. Alton might be an okay dude, but if his death can possibly get him back to Cersei, then hey, let him “serve” one last time.

    Plus, again, this idea of the kinslayer being the worst at all is not something that has been established in the show, to my understanding. I think at this point we can safely say that if it ain’t in the show, it ain’t in the show… and that goes for attitudes as well. We can bring our book knowledge with us, but it should come with the understanding that not everything is going to translate 100%.

    Next season, if events fall out as in the books, however, we might just find out how people feel about kinslayers, and then we can re-evaluate how best to feel about this scene.

  296. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    I pretty much love this episode, but do have a couple of reservations.

    The Jaime scenes were just awesome! The look on his face when Alton said he would remember the day he squired for Jaime till the day he died. It was the same look of regret when he shoved Bran out the window. Just perfect. The moral of the story is don’t talk to Jaime about the good old days, you end up dead. Robert, Jory and now Alton.

    I think we can now take anyone telling Jaime “I’ll remember that till the day I die” as a cue for Jaime making sure that day comes soon.

  297. Jason Basa
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    I was as giddy as a school girl when Ygritte said “You know nothing, Jon Snow”

  298. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    HumMis1349,

    Okay let me be more clear…

    The Mountain is 7 feet tall and all muscle. He wears armor that is so thick and heavy no other man in Westeros can even lift it let alone move in it.

    He gets poisoned but is kept alive, or brought from the dead as kind of a Flesh Golem

    No I don’t think a tall person is fantasy. For you to even think that all The Mountain is, is a tall person. Maybe we aren’t talking about the same Mountain…

  299. oh-bb
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    andrea,

    What he did to Bran was awful but Bran´s not dead (still awful ofc)

    Wha? It’s okay that he pushed Bran out a window because Bran didn’t die? As I recall, Jaime was exasperated that he didn’t manage the money shot, as it were, on that one. So I’m not really sure how attempted child-murder is okay at all, since, y’know, it was only attempted. It’s not like he managed to pull it off.

    He had every intention of killing Bran. And it was done with exactly the same tone and approach as tonight. Jaime saw an opportunity, felt a bit of regret, and took it anyway, because that’s how he rolls.

  300. Weirwood
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    HumMis1349,

    Okay let me be more clear…

    The Mountain is 7 feet tall and all muscle.He wears armor that is so thick and heavy no other man in Westeros can even left it let alone move in it.

    He gets poisoned but is kept alive, or brought from the dead as kind of a Flesh Golem

    No I don’t think a tall person is fantasy.For you to even think that all The Mountain is, is a tall person.Maybe we aren’t talking about the same Mountain…

    Not to mention the possibly headless part…..

  301. oh-bb
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    Leland’s Axe,

    I think it’s about half and half, me, but if the show can keep this arc going, then I have high hopes for later seasons, as I’m in the camp that thinks the books take a rather sharp downward turn after book three, especially with ADWD.

    Right now I think the show is doing some few things for expediency’s sake that could be done a bit better, but overall I think the narrative is tighter, and I agree with you there. I just think sometimes the book’s looser narrative actually makes for better story at this point… things are a bit rushed in the show from time to time. However, with only ten eps per season? I think they’re doing a hell of a job.

    Though I think there are some scenes could have been left on the floor to expand some others. Oh well. Nothing’s perfect!

  302. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    Matt Chung: Then it should be pretty obvious who’s who :|

    I wasn’t asking who they were. In the books Bran didn’t send them there as a gift to the Miller. In the show he did. Another poster confirmed that for me, I just wanted to see if anyone else caught it. Christ on a bike.

  303. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    I have a theory: What if Doreah has the dragons not because she betrayed Dany but because she is working with…..Barristan Selmy. What if Barristan knew what Pree and Daxos were up to and went into save the dragons and managed to get Doreah and the dragons out after Irri was poisoned or strangled? We could then attribute the massacre of Daxos’ guards to Selmy….and that Pree merely wants to get Dany to the house of the undying?

  304. JamesL
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Anyone else hope they don’t go back to Iceland next year for beyond the Wall? I know it looks pretty but it just doesn’t feel right for beyond the Wall. The whole landscape in Iceland just doesn’t give the beyond the Wall scenes the creepy atmosphere they should have. Everything is out in the open and you can see for miles all around you instead of being in a dense forest. How can you be scared of White Walkers when you can see them coming from miles away? Look at those opening images from the pilot or Jon Snow traveling through the creepy dark wintery forest when he was spying on Craster sacrificing his son, thats what beyond the Wall be like.

  305. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    that episode was beyond perfect.

  306. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    GRRM:
    So two small kids, a retard, and a wildling are able to elude an entire hunting party through the woods? Really? And Theon was a skilled hunter at that

    You answered your question… WILDLING. This is what wildlings do.

  307. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    I agree… I was hoping D&D would shoot in Alaska. There are plenty of beautiful ice/snow mountains that also have a beautiful wilderness. I was wondering why they just didn’t shoot Jon Snow’s storyline in Alaska to begin with…

  308. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    Wait, is Doreah dead for sure or what? I’m watching a rerun and Daenerys kinda just wrote her off…like, “Don’t know where she is, probably dead.”

    Or is that a suggestion Doreah’s up to something? I don’t know. I feel like Daenerys needs some allies left…all she has are Jorah (kinda), Kovarro, and Oldthraki.

  309. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    Jorah puts on a great Jack Nicholson face while talking to Quaithe.

    NEVER!

  310. Syrio
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    They aren’t in the haunted forest, they’re in the Frost Fangs, and it looks about what I expect the Frost Fangs to look like.

  311. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    LOVED this episode! All the changes made sense and give good motivation. Felt a bit bad that the Lannister I liked got beaten to death by Jaimie for nothing.

    Also pretty clever to use the dragon theft to draw the 12 of 13 out of their heavily guarded compounds. I just don’t understand the motivation of the Warlocks to get Daeny to the HOTU.

  312. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I keep hoping that they choose some kind of US locale at least once to shoot something in Essos. I really wanted, for example, Navajo country to be the Red Waste. Or Moab, Utah. What a beautiful area. Drove through it once for a few days. Glorious.

    …But anyway. It’s a long shot, I know, but we do have some wonderful, ethereal locations over here…of course, they’re probably very expensive places at which to shoot a TV show.

  313. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    Did anyone dig how Roose Bolton didn’t have to say hardly a god damn word in the entire episode yet McElhatton was still able to convey how creepily awesome he is? When he looked back at Robb and ‘Talisa’ I got chills. I am totally on board with this interpretation. I also loved him in the furs, as he looked more like a Northerner than in previous episodes. I also love how they are playing up the ambiguity with his character. I keenly looking forward to his development, as it seems D and D are presenting little nuanced breadcrumbs.

    As for Jaime killing his kin, I feel for some of you that think this betrays his character, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me. I was pissed with Pullo on Rome when he killed Eirene’s slave fiance, but he was still awesome regardless. I don’t think this changes Jaime’s endgame in the SHOW or the BOOKS.

  314. Greatjon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Larry’s review this week is pretty funny. A friend gives him some interesting “spoilers.”

  315. Zach
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    Not as good as last week’s.

    Loved the Pyat Prees! Great way to make the warlocks creepy, and to make the Qarth story actually matter.

    Loved Jaime.

    The dialogue between Ygritte and Jon was really weak. Same with Arya/Tywin. I love those character pairings and performances, but the actual writing… bleh. Long, drawn out, clumsily written conversations. Oh well.

    (Same for the conversation between Jaime and Alton. Just get on with it, fellas. But when they did… that’s how I like my Jaime.)

    I, too, am interested in the public’s reaction to Theon…

  316. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:53 am | Permalink

    Zach,

    The dialogue between Ygritte and Jon was really weak. Same with Arya/Tywin. I love those character pairings and performances, but the actual writing… bleh. Long, drawn out, clumsily written conversations. Oh well.

    Yeah well….that’s like totally your opinion man! :-)

    Have to disagree! But to each their own!

  317. Zach
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    I’m just saying one scene of Ygritte making uninspired penis jokes would have been… uh… it wouldn’t have been as bad as THREE.

  318. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    Zach:
    Not as good as last week’s.

    Loved the Pyat Prees! Great way to make the warlocks creepy, and to make the Qarth story actually matter.

    Loved Jaime.

    The dialogue between Ygritte and Jon was really weak. Same with Arya/Tywin. I love those character pairings and performances, but the actual writing… bleh. Long, drawn out, clumsily written conversations. Oh well.

    (Same for the conversation between Jaime and Alton. Just get on with it, fellas. But when they did… that’s how I like my Jaime.)

    I, too, am interested in the public’s reaction to Theon…

    The dialogue between Jaime and Alton was perfect. To each their own, I guess.

  319. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:00 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:
    And speaking of changes…

    No hiding in the crypts? Or are we to guess they went back there?

    “We can’t run forever…”

  320. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:00 am | Permalink

    Arthur: I was surprised that the Hound was so forward in his ability to protect Sansa from her King. I immediately thought back to King Targaryen and the mauling of his wife. Would the Hound really intercept Joffrey’s abuses? Such a San/San moment right there. =)

    Rickon continues to scare me.. in a good way. He’s either going to be a total psycho or the biggest badass of the series.

    You need to watch “14 Blades” with Donnie Yen, that will satisfy your sword lust for a bit. Check it out. A man would like that movie.

  321. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    Also, WOW at that ending music. Fuckin’ creepy as hell and perfectly exemplifies Theon’s failing sanity. Doesn’t anyone else agree? I hope S2 gets a soundtrack, too — unless that was a track on S1, in which case, please let me know which it is!

  322. Wes
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    paylor:
    Winter Is Coming,

    I’m liking the Qarth storyline too. Except for the fact they have apparently killed Dany’s entire Khalasar. It does actually give some purpose for her to go to the House of the Undying.

    I hear people complaining about a lack of purpose a lot but I don’t understand. Dany had exhausted all other avenues in Qarth (the Thirteen, the Pureborn). The Warlocks were the only other ones who had reached out to her, so she went to them for help.

    I’m not complaining about the changes for the show. I think they needed to spice up her plot line for television. But her not having a purpose for going to the House of the Undying in the books? That’s just false.

  323. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    anyone else think that the miller’s sons are the same orphan boys that Bran sent to that grey-haired man (that Theon punches) a few episodes back?

    Possible.

  324. Zach
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    If it had been half the length, sure! I loved mentioning Barristan, all that. There just was no reason for it to last five freakin minutes. We only live once, people.

  325. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:06 am | Permalink

    This episode was actually my 2nd favorite…

    I liked all the changes. All the scenes were awesome and well done. Jon’s Storyline was my fav this episode I loved his dialog with Ygritte. Everything was awesome…

    Just wanted to see Jaime kickass that’s all. That was a perfect oppertunoty for D&D to give us an epic swordfighting scene. Oh well, I still loved this episode.

    My fav is still episode 5. This one falls right after that.

    Can’t wait to see some Richard/Oona loving =]

  326. Lex
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Good episode, but not quite as good as the previous two. A slight step down…

    That being said, it had some seriously awesome scenes.

    High points:
    -Harrenhal looked AMAZING!
    -New Gregor was actually pretty good.
    -Tywin being ruthless (burn the farms and fields!)
    -Another excellent scene with Arya and Tywin. They’re really nailing this storyline, in spite of the big changes. Loved the backstory of Harrenhal, Aegon and his sisters (so much name dropping, including dragons!). The Milord/My Lord thing (lifted from ADWD) was kind of neat.
    -Some of Catelyn’s best scenes this season. Finally, really felt like Catelyn from the books!
    -The Jaime/Karstark stuff was great!
    -Loving Jon and Ygritte’s chemistry. But I was very glad when he reached for Longclaw, instead of giving in to temptation.

    Low points:
    -The Alton Lannister thing. I may have been more shocked if I hadn’t seen some comments here before viewing, but still… it just seemed kind of pointless and stupid. I didn’t really like his character, or his backstory, or the fact that he looked like Gendry, or the fact that Jaime killed him (seemed like a moronic escape plan), or the fact that his death totally overshadowed Karstark’s son’s death. Just seemed like a dumb change.

    Lastly, I think it’s pretty obvious that Talisa IS Jeyne Westerling. She looked reluctant to go to the Crag (the home of the Westerlings) because she’ll be recognized. Also, did you see Roose looking slightly unimpressed with her and Robb’s developing relationship?

  327. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    Ducky:
    Well, that was painful. Benioff and Weiss completely butchered Jaime’s character by having him kill his made-up for the show cousin. It’s not like you have to makestuff up to show that Jaime is not a fluff bunny – being a sister fucker and little boy defenestrator already shows that Jaime is not on the side of the angels. Making him a kinslayer to bootis overkill.Also, he didn’t have to kill that hapless and starstruck kid to get the guards attention.

    And as the cherry on the crappy sundae the vows scene was a pale shadow of the chapter in the book.

    This makes me dread how they are going to muck up Jaime’s ASOS storyline.

    One so seldom has the opportunity to use “defenestrator” these days. Well struck!

  328. aimlessgun
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    Tied for best EP of the season with EP3.

    I cannot, cannot wait for more Cat/Jaime/Brienne next week.

  329. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    It’s clear to me that Jaimie has had enough and knows that escape is best but his murder will make peace impossible on the Lannister side. He is goading everyone to kill him.

  330. spacechampion
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:34 am | Permalink

    I was guessing last week that Dagmer Cleftjaw would take Reek’s role in goading Theon to kill the boys. Looks like I was right.

    Remember last season Jaime said he’d kill everyone if necessary until he and Cersei were the only ones left in the world. Killing Alton to him was necessary. I don’t think he’ll regret it, only that it was for nothing.

  331. Jackol
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    I just don’t understand the motivation of the Warlocks to get Daeny to the HOTU.

    As I recall, the undying things that live in the HotU were planning to feed off of her until Drogon came to the rescue. Presumably royal blood/spirit/whatever is nice and tasty for soul sucking vampire things. ie they lured her to the HotU for a snack.

  332. Blackfish
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    Another great episode, and lol at the complaints people have. Pretty much everything has been said so I’ll mention no nudity again? Those HBO execs are dropping the ball!

    Also wow Sophie Turner is taller than Lena Headey!

  333. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    Blackfish,

    No nudity IMO is a good thing. I am so glad we haven’t seen Ros in a while. The next nudity scenes I hope are ones with meaning behind them. Not brothel scenes…

  334. Brienne
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    My favorite epi of the season thus far.
    I like the fact they took Jaime to a darker, more psychopathic place than even the books take him. And to have a scene like that juxtaposed with Cersei yearning for Joffrey to be more like Jaime merely shows the deft hand that went into writing and directing this one. The storyline changes seem to be establishing depths to these characters that television audiences will appreciate, and as a book reader I am delighted in the twists when they surprise me. I bet even GRRM likes watching his beloved creations go down roads that he’s never seen them going down before.
    I can’t wait for next week.

  335. Aoife
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:55 am | Permalink

    Arthur:

    Just wanted to see Jaime kickass that’s all.That was a perfect oppertunoty for D&D to give us an epic swordfighting scene.Oh well, I still loved this episode.

    The escape scene was at night. Epic swordfighting would’ve been wasted in the dark. Escaping in the middle of the day (for better lighting) would’ve been stupid. I’m sure Jaime will have plenty of swordfighting opportunities to come. (And he certainly kicked Alton’s ass! XD)

    Also, you complaining about there being no action? Wasn’t Sandor’s rescue of Sansa last week not badass enough for you, eviscerations and all? Just hold your horses until Blackwater, gah!

  336. Adam Roberts
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:57 am | Permalink

    “you’ll be glad of all the hateful things I do someday when your queen, and I’m all that stands between you and your beloved king.”
    wow what did the hound mean by that

  337. Crispin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:00 am | Permalink

    I am now more convinced than ever that the season 2 Lannister theme, which darkly played during the first camera-pan over Harrenhal this episode, is indeed the tune to “The Rains of Castamere”. After all, why else would Tyrion have whistled it during the first two episodes of this season?

    Good episode, lots of strong scenes, but I’m still not sold on Talissa. I guess next weeks episode will likely be the make or break point for me as far as that storyline is concerned.
    Tywin and Arya are getting more and more intense. Vastly superior to the Arya plot in the books. But at this rate, it can’t be long before Arya gives Tywin the clue he needs to place her real heritage.
    Jaime’s escape attempt, however, was really terribly contrived. It would have made more sense if Torren Karstark had rushed into the pen while Jaimie and Alton were still fighting to try and separate them, but to just go in when Torren was already lying on the ground when Jaime had backed up, without calling for backup or at least yelling for help while going in, felt rather unbelievable to me. Also, I agree that Jaime wouldn’t have had to kill Alton. Knocking him around would have been sufficient. I don’t take issue with Jaime killing his cousin if it suits his purpose, but in this case, it was unneccessary.

  338. Toast
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:03 am | Permalink

    I think there is more than just guilt in Theon’s look at the end. It is a look of realization. It is like everything he has done has finally sunk in. Invading the North and beheading Ser Rodrik didn’t phase Theon, he said himself that it is all just a game (almost giggling). Ser Rodrik’s last words ring true, Theon is truly lost. He finally just figured that out in the fading moments of that episode. Beautifully done.

  339. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I won’t lie, your thoughts about Jaime having too much of a conscience or even more accurately honor to commit kinslayer actually pointed out the only thing that i could actually find unsettling with what i think was the best episode of the series, kinslaying is a huge deal in Westeros, even more than kingslaying (according to what people think, the gods think, lol), Jaime actually being a stand up guy in his own way is a huge part of the irony of how people view his actions especially his actions surrounding the “I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act”quote

    however after a quick google search i found that its only considered kinslaying if its a close relative, which allows him to sadistically bond with his cuzo before smashing him in the face with a rock & keep what honor he has left

    it would b interesting to see him trying to explain this to Brienne lol

  340. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Yes on Roose Bolton, see my previous post for further extrapolation on that matter.

  341. Kib
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:13 am | Permalink

    i miss Great Jon Amber ((((

  342. Ser Jon Falstaff
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:14 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    So Cat draws a sword… Will she free the King/Kinslayer or, substituting for the Goat, take away his sword hand? I’m betting on the latter. It’s too early for Cat to harbor the kind of motivation that would allow her to free Jaime. I think she’ll free him in Episode 10.

  343. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    Ser Jon Falstaff,

    she can’t take his sword hand away b/c that would or at least should basically make it impossible for him ever ever possess any positive feeling for Sansa, Lady Stark, Brienne or any1 associated with her

  344. Aoife
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    Kyron

    Although Cat’s motivation is a little messed up if this is when she releases him.
    I think in the books she does it when grief stricken over the news about Bran and Rickon.

    I think it still works if Cat releases him now, b/c she knows Jaime is probably not gonna make it through the night or until Robb gets back. If Jaime dies, then the chances of getting Sansa and Arya back alive are slim, and any possible peace between the Starks and the Lannisters would go down the toilet.

    Although if Cat releasing Jaime next ep happens, I’m wondering if/how they will include Robb (book spoilers/show speculation) beheading Karstark. Maybe he makes an attempt on Catelyn’s life after she releases Jaime?

  345. Crispin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Ser Jon Falstaff,

    I hope not. Taking Jaime’s hand is more of an episode ender, whereas the scene with Cat and Jaime already ended so cliffhangery this episode that they’ll probably not be able to wait to resolve it until the end of next episode. In fact, I hope that that scene with our beloved Kingslayer should in fact be the “cut” of this season, although whether it’s the goat or someone else remains to be seen.

    I mean, Cat can hardly expect the Lannisters to deliver her daughters unharmed to her if she sends them “spoiled goods” in advance.

  346. the goat
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    “Where did you find this beast?”

    “poor old dead Ned”

    “What was the name of that bastard he fathered?”
    “Brienne.”
    “No, that wasn’t it.”

    Bowing at Jaime right now.

  347. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:38 am | Permalink

    Do people really not remember that Catelyn asks for Brienne’s sword in the book too? And guess what, she didn’t cut his hand off. The episode 8 synopsis says “Robb is betrayed.” I’m guessing the betrayal is Cat releasing Jaime.

  348. Dan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:38 am | Permalink

    For those that can, you should check out NCW’s reaction to his scene where he kills Alton. That’s the kind of reason I like this scene. When I finished reading the second book I hated Jaime Lanister. I thought he was a giant piece of shit. I did enjoy some aspects of his personality but I was really wanting him to die. When he became a POV in ASoS I was not even sure I wanted to be in this guys head. Obviously, after reading them I grew to love his character and his chapters but what made that transition so sweet and memorable was because it was so drastic a change in feelings toward this guy. From hate to love. I was missing that in this show. I already loved Jaime going in so there was no transition for me. Adding him kill Alton brought me and especially non book readers to a place where we can feel real hatred for this guy. If D&D do right by him later on I think that will be a fantastic transition to see again. It will be more riveting to see this if the hatred is deeper. I can honestly say that if he had killed Cleos Frey in the books like this in book two it wouldn’t have shocked me at all. And I still would have loved him after books 3 & 4.

  349. Icebird
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:40 am | Permalink

    Loved everything with Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, and Jamie this week.

    I’m even ok with Alton (aka Cleos) dying because Jamie isn’t all that fond of him in the books anyway and it was easily one of the best scenes in the season if not the series. Guess it’ll just be Brienne and Jamie on their journey.

    Sansa kinda annoyed me in S1 as she did in the books. But these last few episodes with Sansa are amazing! I’m on the San/San bandwagon. I’m a little disappointed we haven’t seen Ser Dontos since episode 1… Shae is annoying me less. Hope it keeps up.

    I wish they would have built up Bran & Rickon’s deaths a little bit more. That final scene seemed like it was over in 30 seconds and didn’t have as much of an impact as it could have.

    I’m a whole lot more ok with the changes to Dany’s storyline now than I was last week. Still wish they didn’t kill off Irri. (Bullshit… It is known) The scene where Pyat Pree killed the rest of the 13 was really good. I’m looking forward to the House of the Undying next week.

    I’m not ok with the changes to Jon Snow’s storyline. It seems like he’s not going to get his conversation with Quorin Halfhand where he is encouraged to join the wildlings if captured. I almost thought Jon was going to nail Ygritte a season early… Jon’s storyline in Clash of Kings was fantastic… and better. I wish they weren’t messing with this one. :( I do enjoy some of the banter with Ygritte (I wish she’d accused him of not knowing where to put it) but it’s gone too far. Maybe they’ll redeem his story a bit in the next week or so. Glad we’ll get to see Rattleshirt next week though!

    I’ll give this episode a 4/5. Would have been a 5/5 if they didn’t screw with Jon’s story.

  350. moi
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    “And gag him!” That was my favorite line from last night. (From Catelyn Stark)

  351. Dan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:49 am | Permalink

    I would be surprised if Cat cuts off Jaime’s hand next episode. Surely we’ll get the great Brienne/Jaime sword fight next year or maybe the end of this year. Plus in the preview it sure looked like Jaime was released.

  352. DutchDrunk
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    I figure this is what will happen with Jon’s story for the next episode.

    Qhorin is also caught by the Wildlings, which you can see a very brief glimpse of in the preview. Ygritte has already said that they would cut Qhorin’s head off if he was ever caught, but that Mance would definitely accept Jon into their midst. Therefore I think that Jon and Qhorin are tied up together at some point and Qhorin will whisper to Jon to do everything they ask to get close to them, then they’re thrown together in a pit to fight to the death, where Qhorin will probably have another chance to emphasize his point.

  353. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    They really like moving their favourite conversations forward don’t they. I was a bit disappointed to hear Jaime dishing out some of the best convo lines he has with Brienne at Harrenhal in book 3 to Catelyn. I suppose it’s not too bad, considering the second half of the hot tub convo is the best part.

    Yay for some SanSan.

    Really liked the Quaithe scene as well. Little changes like this work very well. Most of the bigger ones don’t.

    Figured that they’d make the dragons a premise for visiting the House of the Undying (as stated in a previous post), entirely unnecessary, but Pyat Pree’s assassination of the 13 was pretty cool nonetheless.

    Was impressed with the epic beard of Rickard Karstark, nice to see that they are actually capable of presenting some less modern looking people.

    I really like Daenerys’ Qartheen dresses as well. Probably the only element that they’ve managed to capture from the ‘otherwordly feel’ of the Qarth of books.

    Didn’t *hate* any of the scenes, which was good.

    About as good as episode 2 which for me was the best so far.

  354. DutchDrunk
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    About Catelyn/Jaime:

    In the book we all know that her motivation to release him has to do with her ‘losing’ Bran and Rickon, and making sure she at least gets her girls back. In the show this news of course hasn’t reached her yet, so I think her motivation now will be two-fold. She still wants her girls back, so she makes him swear the oath in the next episode. But her second motivation now seems to be to keep the peace.
    In the books, Karstark was with Robb, so the trouble didn’t start until they came back. As stated in this episode, there will probably be a lot of trouble if Karstark doesn’t get to kill Jaime. That’s why she’s releasing him now, to make sure Robb still has a united army to come back to.

  355. Luana
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:35 am | Permalink

    Wow, I really enjoyed this episode. Things have diverged so far from the books now that it’s more like watching a really good fanfic. When Ygritte said “You know nothing, Jon Snow” I may or may not have emitted an audible squeal.

    Know what I liked best? Lots of horses NOT cut out of scenes, like the hunt for the Stark boys, and Jaime’s capture. The whole episode seemed much more real and less like play-acting on a set, and I really think it had a lot to do with using horses in all of the scenes where there logically needed to be horses. It’s funny what a big difference that makes to the whole look and feel of the episode.

    But hey, what’s with the whitewashing of Smiler? (Okay, I’m just going to apologise for that joke right now and save us all some time.)

  356. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    Brilliant, brilliant episode. And that ending! OMG. If I ever meet Ramin Djawadi, I’m giving him a great big kiss just for the music score over that last Winterfell sequence. Palpitant, tragic, and with an unbelievable sense of fragility, a truly masterful piece of scoring.

    Though the Kinslayer changes hurt a little – mainly because I’m such a devoted Jamie fangirl – I completely understand why they did it, and rather like it.
    1- It brings back Jaime’s character with a bang. A drama filled scene not easily forgotten.
    2- It makes Karstark’s need for revenge against Jaime much more plausible, and defensible, than the books.
    3- It returns to Jaime an agency that’s been taken away from him in his imprisonment. It reminds the audience that this is a dangerous man, one that should neither be trusted nor underestimated.
    4- It gives Catelyn more reason to release him once she hears about the death of her boys. If she believes his life in Robb’s camp is no longer safe, much better to release him and hope for her daughters in exchange, than have him die at the hand of a Karstark.
    5- It makes Jaime’s future transformation, and the effect Brienne has on him, much more poignant and powerful, now that we’ve witnessed him brutally murder a pathetically doting character like Alton, in cold blood. It will provide for a stark dramatic contrast to future Jaime.
    6- the visceral emotional impact of the scene alone was worth it.

    I did NOT like the fact that they changed and butchered Jaime’s convo with Catelyn. That is my favourite chapter in all the books, and the adaptation did not do it justice. This is the only reason I, perhaps harshly, scored this ep a 4 rather than a 5.

    I completely endorse the changes in Qarth. For the first time since her early chapters in AGOT, I’m finding Dany’s arc interesting, and I thank D&D for it.

    Everything else was gorgeous. Performances tonight were flawless on all fronts. Pacing, tension, drama, writing…etc were all wonderful.

    Special mention goes to David Nutter who is, imo, the best director GOT has had so far. I really hope he comes back next season to direct a lot more episodes.

  357. erica
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    I’ve never read the books, but i don’t think those burnt bodies were the boys of winterfell. Or atleast i hope they weren’t

  358. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    Actually yeah, the Kinslayer bit is quite against Jaime’s character.

  359. DutchDrunk
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    I think Jaime’s conversation will have a part 2 in the next episode. As I don’t think the reason for Cat asking for Brienne’s sword will be to cut of his hand instead of the Goat later on, nor release him since you can’t chop through a chain with steel. He’s going to swear the oath, so the conversation can continue.

  360. freoduwebbe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    He told Robert she married Drogo.That led to the first assassination attempt.

    paul:
    how did Jorra initially betray Dany? I didnt’ get that..

  361. NotoriousPYG
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Royboy: chain

    I also, am very worried about the failure to mention the chain.

  362. Dreamlife
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Jack Slap: what? reeds? no no i meant she is actually jeyne westerling!

      
    Quote

    Oops, sorry. I stand corrected.

    Now that I think about it, for me the peak of Dany’s story (after hatching her dragons) is House of the Undying. After that, there is much promise (I kept expecting big things to happen, but nothing came of it. Her chapters in ADWD were such a let down.)

  363. Strepsi
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    Dreamlife,

    re: “The Bad: The Dany stuff was boring and frustrating. ”

    Yeah, but think how much more static it was in the books. Essentially at the end of book 1 she is an über fantasy woman, but for book 2 she hangs around in Quarth and has a hallucination in the House of The Undying. Quarth is a cool city, but thee changes are giving way more drama and motivation for her, in all that happens. Plus I agree with the recap, Pyat Pree is so cool and creepy. But still, Irri and Rakharo :(

  364. Maxwell James
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    Good episode.

    This year instead of sexposition we seem to be getting a lot of Tywinsposition. And man, that alone is one hell of an improvement.

  365. DutchDrunk
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    I really don’t understand how people can be that upset about Irri’s death =/

    She’s a very, very minor character in the show and the books. In the show Doreah has way more to do, and in the books Irri barely says anything more than “It is known.”

    Sure, she’s been with Dany for a very long time, but she never had too much to do for me to really miss her or anything.

    Someone like Missandei is far more interesting in Dany’s storyline, although it’s much later in the story of course.

  366. Virtus
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    Not liking Jaime’s murder of his relative. In the books he never liked Cleos, whom he viewed as weak, but he wouldn’t have killed him just to get someone’s attention.

  367. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    @ Mike – I think Dany is at her best when she has a group of loyals to lead. I’m sure when she starts freeing slaves left and right she will be much more tolerable, because she uses her “annoying fiery attitude” on actual jerks –like the slave masters. Meereen was basically Dany adapting to the Dothraki all over again, only Meereen is a real shitbag of a culture (still hated how GRRM phoned that worldbuilding in…)

    I will say that Emilia’s acting just isn’t doing anything for me. I keep seeing the ACTING! gears churning in every scene she’s in. It’s not natural.

    Emilia’s acting is the only thing that is saving the total frustration associated with GRRM’s decisions about the direction of Daeny’s storyline. Tyrion’s storyline in Essos suffers the same way and doubly so because so far their paths do not intersect. To a certain extent Essos is even problematic for Arya’s storyline.

  368. Black Lion
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    Why didn’t Jaime and Alton come up with a better ruse (maybe based on the book-version escape plan) so that poor Alton would live? (And could be later killed by dad Karstark, triggering the ASOS plot.) Why?
    I also didn’t like the handling of the Bran and Rickon plot. D&D needlessly put too many hints. Not a single soul on the TWOP boards believes that B&R are dead.
    Apart from that, it was a magnificent episode. Can I haz a show consisting only of Tywin&Arya and Jon&Ygritte scenes? Pwetty pwetty please?

    ETA: I loved the change in Cat’s motivations. For all the bad that D&D did to her character, this episode they got redeemed.

    NotoriousPYG,
    yeah, count me in as worried about this. They don’t even have to show this, they can have simply Davos speaking: oh crap, now we can’t go back if bad shit happens. And it happens :D

  369. Tomer Segal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    Dialaouges where great, amazing acting indeed. It’s nice that the TV viewers got some history lessons from most of the charactars today.

    The Qarthian coup was a nice twist. Also the end of the episode was very well done.

    But damn, I’m really not happy about making Jamie a kin slayer. I mean, he might fall out sometimes, but he’s not evil as he comes out in here. I think it was unneccesary. Also the new Jon storyline seems useless. I don’t see the point.

    Does anybody have the soundtrack name of the ending?

  370. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    I got the same vibe from Jaimie as you did. He finally decided to roll the dice when the opportunity arose because either way he knew he couldn’t lose. If he lives he fights another day. If he dies he strikes the single greatest blow left to him.

  371. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    NotoriousPYG: I also, am very worried about the failure to mention the chain.

    Yes, that occured to me watching the ep. Maybe they the producers couldn’t find a way in which they could afford showing the chain, so they removed it from the Blackwater plot. Or maybe the chain will appear on the show as being an old forgotten King’s landing defensive tool that hasn’t been used in a long time, until Tyrion decides to put it to use again… or something like that.
    I hope it’s not been cut. It’s a rather significant part of Tyrion’s accomplishments while acting Hand.

  372. Ser Lemon Cakes
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Great episode for me. It seemed like everyone was slowly going insane and being honest at last in those moments. The Bernard Herman goes Westeros end music underscored that.

    Can I just say how beautiful the woman looked in this episdoe? Rose, Oona, Lena and Michelle in particular. As one I appreciate seeing non plasticised natural attractive women on screen.

    Just noticed that The Hound was dubbed in this episode as well as the previous episode with another voice. Sounds nothing like Rory McCann.

    Wonder why they would do this?

    Seemed the same to me. I think this was the most dialogue we have heard from Sandor so far. I think the actor tones down his natural Scottish accent for dialog beyond RAWR!

    Perfect episdoe if for the want of more Varys, Pod and KLB? Where are those guys?

  373. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    I always loved the retreat scenes. Especially when they split up and the rock climber climber Stone Snake doesn’t make it despite his skill.

  374. Tomer Segal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    oh and also, it would have been much more cooler if they made the whole last scene more beliveable. just make all the viewers sure that the kids are dead.

  375. purplejilly
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    Not as good for me as last week, but still many shining moments. I want to rewatch it again because I was distracted and had trouble hearing all of the dialogue. Quick hits are:

    • I loved Shae trying to protect Sansa, chasing down the other handmaid with a knife. When Shae first saw the stain and realized what it meant, and her first reaction was ‘help me flip the mattress’ I was all “YAY SHAE!” I didn’t like Book Shae much, but Show Shae is growing on me!
    • The Arya and Tywin exchanges continue to be priceless. Those two could do a one act play together, the Tywin and Arya conversations, made up solely of their conversations at the table there.
    • Ygritte and Jon are priceless too, and I love Ygritte expanding Jon’s mind by giving him a little ‘reality check’ about “who lives where, and who owns what land, and what gave them the right to put up a wall?” By the expressions on Jon’s face he is started to rethink all he ever knew, or else he is very constipated.
    • Tyrion and Cersei and the poignant conversation in the bedroom. Wow. I think Tyrion almost wanted to hug her, but was sure he’d get punched for trying. I could feel Cersei’s pain.
    For discussion for the book readers – when *I* read the books, I always felt like Theon couldn’t find Bran and Rickon kind of on purpose. I felt like he wanted to let them get away, and so when they were difficult to find, he used the orphan boys on purpose, for a dual purpose, to save face with his ironmen, but also secretly to let Bran and Rickon get away. He’d never admit to it… But that was the vibe I got. Did anyone else every get that vibe?

  376. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    As awesome a scene as it was to get the unsullied, it pissed me off because it would take so many more ships to get them all back to Westeros.

  377. Emerson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    I really love the scenes betweeen Arya & Tywin, maybe the best added scenes.

    And Dany’s story got interesting too, the various Pyat’s killing the 13 was very cool.

    You know nothing Jon Snow, Ygritte got the spotlight.

  378. Tim
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    I loved everything on this episode, except for Jaime killing Alton. That was just dumb and feels like change for the sake of change instead of something well thought out. And I liked 90% of the stuff they changed or scenes they have added that weren’t in the books.

  379. DutchDrunk
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I never really had that feeling. To me Theon knew exactly what he was he was doing, trying to save face so he could hold Winterfell until his sister could bring more men.
    The show does give me way more of a feeling of Theon being ‘lost’ and still very torn compared to the books, so what you describe would be more believable in the show, but not from the books.

  380. Black Lion
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    purplejilly: • For discussion for the book readers – when *I* read the books, I always felt like Theon couldn’t find Bran and Rickon kind of on purpose. I felt like he wanted to let them get away, and so when they were difficult to find, he used the orphan boys on purpose, for a dual purpose, to save face with his ironmen, but also secretly to let Bran and Rickon get away. He’d never admit to it… But that was the vibe I got. Did anyone else every get that vibe?

    I don’t really agree. From the books it seemed that Theon just wanted to reestablish his authority at whatever costs. The longer the hunt dragged, the more anger he was brewing. I think Alfie is a genius and I blame D&D for the sloppy scripting. In the books Theon is so internally furious and helpless when Reek comes up with his plan that I completely bought that he could kill B&R if he found them.

  381. Flouride
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Liked:

    -Ygritte. Such a lovely woman.
    -Tyrion/Cersei moment
    -Sophie Turner seems to be way more comfortable in her role.
    -Luwin’s cry of despair in the end

    Can’t decide yet:

    -Ducksauce being part of the kidnapping of the dragons and whole coup with Pyat Pree. It’s a huge change from the books.

    Disliked:

    -Changes to Jon’s story. While I love the banter between Jon and Ygritte, I could have waited a bit longer for all that to happen. It’s pretty illogical that both Qhorin and his men aaand Ghost just leave poor Jon all alone in the wilderness. And that Jon can’t track footprints on snow to find them.

    -Jaime’s escape. So now he is also a kinslayer? Seems to me it was added just make it more shocking. I don’t mind the change from the book, but at least do it properly and not half-assed. Having Torrhen Karstark as a lowly guard was silly and having Jaime kill his kin was beyond retarded. I guess we now know why they did not have Cleos Frey in series. Killing a cousin would have been too dark and apparently that’s the only way Jaime can escape…

  382. Frost Nocturne
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Zach,

    I agree with you on the Jon/Ygritte and Arya/Tywin dialogue, but I thought Jaime’s convo with Alton was excellent. One scene of Ygritte teasing Jon is fine, but three repetitive scenes of juvenile taunting? I hope they throw a bone regarding Jon’s warging and give the Halfhand suitably badass future scenes, as well as explaining his reason for letting Jon execute Ygritte.

    As for Arya/Tywin, I think it started out a bit awkward with having her eat and such. The first half of that scene was really straining my suspension of disbelief of how Tywin would actually have conversations with his nameless cupbearer. But I loved the way they integrated more Targaryen backstory into the scene with Arya admiring Visenya, as well as Tywin noticing Arya’s too proper “my lord” which immediately reminded me of Roose’s conversation with Theon in ADWD. Watching the Arya/Tywin scenes is almost like a guilty pleasure, because it’s new material and strains believably, but the dynamic between the two characters/actors is brilliant.

    In the Jaime/Alton scene I really liked that they emphasized Jaime’s love and talent for fighting and his desperation to escape a situation he is clearly unsuited for. And it was great to hear more about how badass Barristan is, remind viewers of his existence, and add a bit more back-story to Jaime’s early years. As for his murder of Alton, I’m mostly alright with it as far as Jaime’s character at that point after being imprisoned for so long. It’s a distant relative, as the synopsis helpfully points out, Jaime doesn’t even remember him at first (the scene played out so similar to his scene with Jory in S1), and Jaime would do anything necessary to get back to Cersei. Just roughing Alton up a bit to bring the guard in would be more reasonable, but that doesn’t exactly have the shock value we got, does it? And Jaime at this point is not exactly reasonable or the kind of person to do things halfway. I agree with others who have said he was done with being locked up, and intended to either escape or die in the effort.

  383. Talon Lannister
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Although Alaska, or even parts of Canada, would be a great location, it surely has to come down to budget. Iceland is a short flight from Eire and the UK. Even their Mediterranean locales are relatively short distances away when compared to North America. More budget on actors and costumes and CGI, less on travel.

  384. Eric Fitch
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    House Snow: What can I say man.Those two kids are dead. They just didn’t want to show there faces thats all

    They might not want us to see them dead or watch them be killed but they didn’t even show them being captured. And why would whatshisface care whether Luwin was present? Were they guarding his sensibilities too?

  385. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins: Judging by some of these comments, WiC might have to put up a curtain call for Bran, or else risk ruining the surprise.

    Hoo boy – are you trying to make this site blow up? :-)

  386. rolle
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Great episode.
    SEVEN HELLS with some of these changes. Some of them are refreshing but some are annying. :)

  387. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Jared: And before anyone mentions it, I don’t care that the scene wasn’t in the book. I also don’t buy the earlier argument on the Open Thread that D&D have somehow irrecoverably ruined Jaime by making him a kinslayer as well as a Kingslayer. I won’t condemn that line of reasoning, because it’s a perfectly valid opinion, but it’s my opinion is that his actions were entirely consistent with the kind of man Jaime was at this stage in the second book. Jaime saw an opportunity to get back to Cersei, and he acted on it. Alton/Cleos’ death was his means to achieving that end.

    Dead On. I said it last year: Jaime is a shit. He’s a shit in the books (yes ALL of them), he’s a shit in the series, he’s a shit.

  388. andrea
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    oh-bb,

    yes, yes, that’s exactly what I´m saying. I have no morals. In fact, I urge everyone to throw children out of windows. It’s fun (not the same if you just paralyzed them).

  389. Lana
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    Rose Leslie is stealing the show – she is too damned good for her own good! The chemistry between Kit and her is absolutely delectable and, to my mind, very much boosts his performance. What a delight.
    Dany’s scenes…not so much. Qarth is a serious fail in my book, one which not even the disarming Iain Glen succeeds in redeeming. It’s like the more they try, the worse it gets. I hope season 3 shows a change for the better.

  390. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    I’m really hoping they’ll show Jaime’s telling of his side of the story of how he became Kingslayer. Whether he tells it to Cat or anyone else is not important at this point, but we really need to hear his side of it. It’s essential, even crucial, to our understanding of his character. I really hope they show it, if not this season, then perhaps next year.

  391. Jack Slap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    House Snow: Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink
    On Bran and Rickon-I almost believe they didn’t really want people to believe its Bran and Rickon. They really highlighted orphan kids, so I think they just bit the bullet and said noone is going to believe this part and shot it the way they did.

    my GF, who did not read the books, totally fell for it! and I let her fall.. very enjoyable

  392. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    For the last time, I’m not objecting to Jaime’s killing Alton because I romanticize Jaime and think he’s a prince among men, I’m objecting because it doesn’t make sense – either from an escape-logic point of view (all Jaime needed was something to bring Torrhen Karstark into his cage so he could kill him (perfectly in character!) AND from a character-centric point of view. Yes, Jaime is a bad guy who kills and defenestrates people during the commission of other crimes such as treason and incest. I understand that. But Jaime has never struck me as a guy who coldly plots the murder of someone while buttering him up with flattery so he’ll come close enough to be murdered. I said that was Tywin-esque, except that it isn’t even that because Tywin wouldn’t kill someone he didn’t feel he had to. And there was absolutely no reason for Jaime to kill Alton.

    Yes, he had that nice scene with Jory remembering the siege of Pyke last season and then stuck him in the eye with a knife, but he didn’t discuss Pyke just to get Jory to come closer for the eyestabbing. One thing didn’t follow immediately upon another so I didn’t feel like Jaime had plotted Jory’s death while talking to him.

    And from a plot perspective, I think this is also a silly and wasteful development. We’re all talking about Alton Lannister’s death, not Torrhen Karstark’s so Lord Karstark’s thirst for vengeance is less visceral seeming because the really shocking death wasn’t his son’s. Having Alton live to aid Jaime’s escape could have made him one of Karstark’s targets and then he could have killed Alton in revenge, which would in turn give Robb a reason to execute him. As it is, I suspect Robb will kill Karstark for saying nasty things about Jeyne/Talisa and/or Catelyn and that’s just not the same motivation for Robb either.

    Jaime is my favorite character in the books, and the show leaves me in the weird position of loving the actor they cast for the role but either hating or being indifferent to all of his scenes. I never thought I’d look forward to Theon’s scenes more than to Jaime’s but there you have it. And I have to confess, I’m a little afraid of what they’re going to do with Jaime’s story next season.

  393. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor: I have a theory: What if Doreah has the dragons not because she betrayed Dany but because she is working with…..Barristan Selmy. What if Barristan knew what Pree and Daxos were up to and went into save the dragons and managed to get Doreah and the dragons out after Irri was poisoned or strangled? We could then attribute the massacre of Daxos’ guards to Selmy….and that Pree merely wants to get Dany to the house of the undying?

    Whoa. Never considered that. Well done. I like it.

  394. Blaat
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    Another fantastic episode, though a little less action oriented than last week’s.
    What I loved:

    - The Kingslayer. His speech about vows, Aerys and his remarks were breathtaking. Don’t think he really considered Alton kin, if he was like a cousin his family wouldn’t sit that far away. Loved the brutality of the murder and the convulsions of the victim.

    - Pyat Pree. In the books he was just there, doing some retarded dance. In the show atleast, Qarth is a lot more interesting. The only thing that could potentially conflict with the book’s larger storylines is Xaro Xoan Daxos’s small role in book 5.

    - Alfie Allen…has he been nominated by the GoT producers voor an emmy? He has been absolutely outstanding as the fallen Theon Greyjoy. Luwin’s cry was indeed heartrending.

    - Ygritte is just like I imagined her. For some reason I always imagined her pretty, because well, who imagines ugly girls outside of Brienne? Hope Halfhand will battle Jon.

    - Dany telling Jorah the way it is. Apparently and fortunately she doesn’t really believe all that much in her screaming threats.

    -Harrenhal in all it’s vanished glory!!!

    What I didn’t like:

    - no Bronn

  395. Jaime Lannister
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Still not buying that Jaime would very calculatingly butcher his young, admiring relative. Was a great scene, and Nikolaj nailed it, but fuck…

    Also, Roose Bolton looks badass in his furs.

    And Dagmer looked evil as fucking hell at the end there.

  396. Vanderhook
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Not as good as last week, but a great episode nonetheless. My thoughts:

    - Jon Snow/Ygritte scenes were great, but I felt like they took up a bit too much time this episode. It seemed like almost every other scene was Jon Snow and Ygritte, and while their dialogue is fun, there will be plenty of time for their relationship to develop down the road. No need to cram it all in one episode. Not worried about the Qhorin ultimatum getting axed, it’ll definitely happen.

    - JAIME! A full dosage of Jaime this episode and it was awesome. My only complaint is that the Jaime/Alton scene seemed to drag on a bit, though the acting was fantastic by both of them. Not a huge fan of Jaime killing Alton. Jaime was interesting because although he did some reprehensible things his intentions for doing always had a noble quality. I.E, he threw bran out the tower to protect his sister/lover, he killed the King he was sworn to protect to prevent genocide etc. Not that distraught over it because in the book he never really cared for Cleos and desperate times call for desperate measures.. but still. Even with that gripe, I have to say NCW totally stole this episode.

    - BRIENNE! A small part in this episode but she was awesome. I like Brienne much more in the show. She nails her part so well and is going to give me more of an appeciation for her when I read the books again. Loved the tease between Jaime/Brienne.

    - LORD KARSTARK! Not much to say here, just happy that he is in the show as I don’t remember him being cast and he’s a character that could have easily been written out. He also looks almost exactly like I imagined him. Side note: Where’s the Greatjon? I guess he couldn’t make it this season. Hopefully he returns next season.

    - Qarth in the show is BETTER than the books. Way better. Way more exciting in the show and a great way to keep the bookreaders on their toes. Pyat Pree is way creepier than in the books. RIP Spice King, I hate Pyat Pree just for killing him. Curtail call for the Spice King!

    - Cersei is definitely being made more sympathetic. They did this a bit in the first season too, but even more now. I don’t mind it. I found Cersei interesting in the books but I also found her to be one of the most unbelievable characters. In the books she came off almost as a cackling Saturday morning cartoon character. I think this interpretation is superior and far more beleivable. Side note: the show seems to be making the Jaime/Cersei incest more common knowledge or at least acknowledge more by the main characters. I.E., its not a danced around subject like it was in the books.

    Getting tired of writing at this point so I’ll just throw in a few shoutouts: Sansa, the Hound, Catelyn, Theon and Luwin were all also fantastic this episode. Can’t wait to see more Davos/Stannis/Melisandre, Asha coming to Winterfell, the realm’s reaction to Bran and Rickons deaths, the resolution to Jaime/Catelyn’s scene and the house of the undying.

  397. Fer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one that find weird we have not seen Pod yet? they cast him and everything, but nothing but a blink and you miss it mention in episode 2

  398. Jen@House Stark
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    Loved the Tyrion/Cersei scene. Yeah, they are trying to make her look more human, but I don’t buy into it. I thought Tyrion was going to try to hug her, poor halfman. Love Ygritte! Love Jaime saying, “Is that a woman?”. LMAO.

  399. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    By the way, Rose Leslie’s line delivery of “You know nothing, John Snow” was absolute perfection. The venom with which she spit it out turned a silly catch phrase into an insightful comment on Jon’s character this season.

    Rose proves, yet again, that stellar casting is this show’s strongest asset.

  400. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Remaal,

    I agree. Ygritte is mind-blowingly awesome.

  401. J
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Fer,

    I find it pretty weird that they went to the trouble of casting Pod and then he’s been pretty much entirely M.I.A. the whole season. Didn’t the actor give an interview where he talked about Pod’s relationship with Tyrion? What happened? Or is it all smashed into the last three episodes?

    It’s going to seem kind of out of nowhere if Pod saves Tyrion during the Blackwater unless he gets a lot of screentime in the next episode or something.

  402. TheFrozenKing
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    i really did like that one,the darkness from jamie is well not really what i did expect,but hey they nailed it.

  403. Michael
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    I like this episode in summary more than I did actually watching it. I don’t think it was as strong as last week’s episodes, but we’re clearly set up for some fun in the next 2…er 3 episodes.

    I like the Jaime changes, his desperation is more believable this way, reminds us what a dangerous man he is (and when Brienne repeatedly puts him in his place, reinforces what a badass woman she is!) and sharpens the whole Karstark thing.

    What I didn’t like was Cat appearing to “free” Jaime before finding out the latest news from Winterfell. I’m hoping that what we’ll see next week is that they didn’t free him, but have hidden him, but as soon as word comes from Winterfell, she’ll react accordingly.

    It’s entirely possible that Robb won’t be returning to the camp this season. He could spend the rest of the season at the Crag. I think it would be really cheap and rushed to have him show up in Ep. 8 already being married. Considering their entire relationship has been just about glances thus far and the writers are clearly invested in showing us more of Robb & Jeyne, I’m hoping “Robb is Betrayed” not only refers to Cat & Jaime, but perhaps to Jeyne at the Crag, maybe they try to capture him when they were supposed to surrender, and in the process he’s wounded and Jeyne “takes care” of him

    All the people worried about Qhorin & Jon, remember the line from the finale summary, “Jon Proves Himself to Qhorin”…that should be all the confirmation you need that they’ll meet again under dramatic circumstances.

    With the Qartheen changes it really does seem like House Of The Undying will be in the finale. I was hoping for earlier, but that appears to be the “Strange Place” mentioned in that summary. Since Doreah didn’t show up with Drogon, there will likely be much discussion and discovery in Ep. 8 and we’re all presuming Ep. 9 won’t have anything but the Blackwater. I still think it would be really cool if the D&D decided to take Dany to Asshai at the end of this season, it would be a major change but I never understood why Dany never even considered it.

    For a reaction from a non-reader to the ending, my wife responded to seeing the burned boys at the end with, “that’s not them…right?” “that’s can’t be them, it’s not them…right?” “I don’t think that’s them, it can’t be them…right?” So seems like a very effective ending to say the least.

  404. The Red Viper
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    If you think about it, it would make sense. Why would they trust just any man to guard The Kingslayer. Surely they needed a high northern lord/lordling who wouldn’t be tempted by Lannister gold.

    I don’t really mind the change from the books but I felt this was a change they didn’t need to make. It makes Catelyn a ‘good’ character in the TV show instead of how GRRM intended in the books. All the characters have flaws, and Catelyn’s was loving her children so much she cost Robb the war(and his life).

    I like the change north of the wall somewhat. The show needs to show Ygritte’s importance to the storyline so it made sense to bring her in from the start. I’m just worried that they will remove Halfhand’s ‘order’ to Jon and let Jon reach that conclusion himself which is not something the principled Jon Snow would do on his own. I love how Rose Leslie plays Ygritte though, perfect.

    I love the change in Qarth. This part of the storyline in the books were quite show and mystical so it adds a lot more spice to Dany’s story. Can’t wait for Arstan to show up!

    I still hate the changes to Robb’s story. But I’m not going to complain about it as long as the show brings in the threatening song “Rains of Castamere” well later.

    Arya’s story had to be changed. Too many characters in the book and they needed to include more Tywin in the storyline than there was in the books.

  405. Wall Crawler
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    I don’t like the Jon changes, either. Where is Ghost? He’s a such an important part of Jon, and his relationship with the wildlings to be cut out like this.

  406. Michael
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Not sure I believed a single word Jamie said to Alton. It was all a lure to bring him in close for the kill and then the attempted escape. All that nonsense about him being a bad squire sounded quite like a lie to me. Just another manipulation by a Lannister.

  407. Laura T.
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    I have two thoughts on Dorea.
    1. She escaped with Drogon (I only saw two tails in that cage) when the shit hit the fan & is hiding, biding her time till it’s safe to bring Drogon home. Dany & Drogon go to the HOU & burn that MF down & bring back her babies……or
    2. She is one of the three deceptions & has been promised fame, fortune, maybe Daxos promised to make her his queen. What were the three deceptions, once for blood (the blood maege in retribution for the Dothraki slaughtering her people) once for gold (Dorea is the inside “man” helping Daxos & Pyat Pree steal the dragons after being promised wealth & possibly a kingdom) & love……Mormont? or a love later to be revealed.
    What are your thoughts?

  408. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Hahahaha!! You’re a bad man, Jack Slap!

    Jack Slap: my GF, who did not read the books, totally fell for it! and I let her fall.. very enjoyable

  409. Stephen
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    I understand they have to make changes from the book, but don’t create silly things. Why did the guard go in when he could have just poked a stick through the cell to see what had happened to Alton Lannister. I know the Starks make silly mistakes but come on…haha
    Also why was Jon taking Ygritte back. He knows Quorin will just kill her so why not just let her go…like he did in the book which makes more sense. And the tv Jon appears to have no relationship with his wolf at all.
    Also not really gonna be much of a relationship between quorin and Jon now as they cut that rather short. So not gonna be much of an impact when the meet again, unless ghost will save him and he can get back to quorin and continue their mission.

  410. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Awesome! Totally agree! Here here!

    Ser Lemon Cakes: Can I just say how beautiful the woman looked in this episdoe? Rose, Oona, Lena and Michelle in particular. As one I appreciate seeing non plasticised natural attractive women on screen.

  411. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Frost Nocturne: As for Arya/Tywin, I think it started out a bit awkward with having her eat and such.

    He seemed to be using her as a taste tester, without her knowledge. He had just complained about the “assassination attempt.”

    Zach: The dialogue between Ygritte and Jon was really weak. Same with Arya/Tywin. I love those character pairings and performances, but the actual writing… bleh. Long, drawn out, clumsily written conversations. Oh well.

    I agree I really didn’t like the dialogue.

  412. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome.

    the goat:
    “Where did you find this beast?”

    “poor old dead Ned”

    “What was the name of that bastard he fathered?”
    “Brienne.”
    “No, that wasn’t it.”

    Bowing at Jaime right now.

  413. Drewr15
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Stephen,

    yeah honestly the only changes that have me bugged out a bit are how they handled the Jon Ygritte Halfhand part. I mean the dialogue between Jon and Ygritte were great but I am worried about losing the impact of Quorin knowingly letting Jon let Ygritte free and knowingly telling Jon to join them knowing it means his death. That is huge and hopefully will not be lost.

  414. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    I posted this towards the end of the open chat, but since people are still bitching about Jamie being a kinslayer I’ll repeat it here.

    I think it’s a common theory that the “little brother” who is prophesied to kill Cersi, isn’t Tyrion but rather Jamie. By the time the last two books are out, Jamie being a kinslayer might not be as out of character as you think.

    Either way Jamie doesn’t “change” until he meets Vargo Hoat.

  415. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins: Judging by some of these comments, WiC might have to put up a curtain call for Bran, or else risk ruining the surprise.

    QFT.

    @WIC: You need to do it.

  416. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    That’s very interesting, I had not considered that.

    What about the Tullys, Tyrells and Martells?

    Arthur: Also, all the major houses have their little mystical advantages.

    Targaryen is Dragons
    Starks is Direwolves
    Baratheons is Mel
    Lannisters is The Mountain

    That’s all the Lannisters have. So at least make him completely badass.

  417. Tyrion4Lyfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    So, where the hell has Ser Dontos been?

  418. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Iagree.
    Until I see Pyatt Pree WITH the dragons I will not believe he has them. I can easily accept the warlocks stealing Dany’s dragons, but the single man carrying the dragons off is not how I picture the warlocks handling the dragons post-theft!

    Like I said last week, I htink it is entirely possible it is Whitebeard (Selmy) who has made his way to Qarth to protect who he sees as the legitimate heiress to the Throne and to become a member of the Queen’s Guard.

    Pyatt Pree attempted to have Dany’s Khalassar killed off and to have her dragons stollen, but the lone hooded figure we saw swept in spoiling the theft, killing the theives and assassins, and taking the dragons to a place of safety.

    Pyatt Pree then swoops in to take advantage of the situation while he can and says that he has thee dragons at the House of the Undying (despite his theft attempt having failed) in an attepmt to lure Dany to HoU.

    That’s how I would have played it to re-introduce Selmy since they will not be able to hide his identity like in the books.

  419. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    I think I must have shouted at the screen and stood up clapping at least half a dozen times!

    Tyrion and Cersie’s scene- Tyrion slowly walking toward her as she cries, somehow wanting to comfort her, she looks at him in apprehension, him turning his head away to avoid her gaze…perfection!
    Jamie and Alton-this was totally unexpected and I found myself seething as Jamie bashed in Alton’s head-it’s always the little guy getting shit on in Westeros…I guess it happens everywhere, which made it all the more believable, well, and because Jamie is such an ass at this point. Kudos NCW, excellent acting!
    Arya-I’m not sure where they are going with the Tywin/Arya scenes, no lord would speak to a mere cupbearer so openly, nor allow her to eat at his table, but I do enjoy the dialogue and will wait and see how it all pans out.
    Cat/Brienne-Love, love , love both actresses! They are doing such an awesome job. The look in Cats eye’s as Jamie hurls insult after insult and truths that really cut! Gag him indeed! Brienne looks like she wants to rip his head off.
    Ygrette/Jon-liked the playfull dialogue, but didn’t think they needed that many scenes worth of it. I have to say, though, I jumped up in glee clapping and shouting in happiness when she uttered her famous sentence!
    Hound/Sansa-honestly still don’t get the whole San/San thing to this day, but I still had a smile on my face during their interaction for all those fans out there. To me the Hound came across very much like the book character in this scene, hateful/slightly (and I mean barely, as in the book) sympathetic.
    Sansa’s blood scene-beautifully done, just as I imagined and this is the first time I liked Shae. I am starting to see where they are going with her character now. By the time D&D are done with the viewer, we will like Shae and feel remorse for what Tyrion ends up doing, I guarantee it.

  420. Joe Snow
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    It will be interesting to see what motivates this whole change in making Shae Sansa’s handmaiden. I’m also wondering how Shae’s ineffective threat of the anonymous handmaiden may expose her true loyalties to Cersei, and how Shae’s growing bond with Sansa may possibly motivate the souring of her secret relationship with Tyrion in things yet to come, especially once Tyrion is forced to betroth Sansa. Who knows, this may all play into Cersei’s schemes for revenge in a different way than the books.
    persephone88,

  421. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    darquemode:
    Joshua Taylor,

    Iagree.
    Until I see Pyatt Pree WITH the dragons I will not believe he has them. I can easily accept the warlocks stealing Dany’s dragons, but the single man carrying the dragons off is not how I picture the warlocks handling the dragons post-theft!

    Like I said last week, I htink it is entirely possibleit is Whitebeard (Selmy) who has made his way to Qarth to protect who he sees as the legitimate heiress to the Throne and to become a member of the Queen’s Guard.

    Pyatt Pree attempted to have Dany’s Khalassar killed off and to have her dragons stollen, but the lone hooded figure we saw swept in spoiling the theft, killing the theives and assassins, and taking the dragons to a place of safety.

    Pyatt Pree then swoops in to take advantage of the situation while he can and says that he has thee dragons at the House of the Undying (despite his theft attempt having failed) in an attepmt to lure Dany to HoU.

    That’s how I would have played it to re-introduce Selmy since they will not be able to hide his identity like in the books.

    I think you did see Pyatt Pree with the dragons, from behind in the episode they were taken. yes “a single man” did it, a single man who has demonstrated his ability to split into at least 10 other men.

    If it was Whitebeard, taking the dragons would a bad way to get on Dany’s good side. Why not just wait there for her to return. and what was that tower the dragons were being led to? Whitebeard’s secret Qath tower he kept all these years? It just doesn’t make sense for it to have been Whitebeard who took them.

    Or maybe I just don’t want to believe in an introduction of whitebeard that leaves out Strong Belwas.

  422. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    Excellent observation Meg, I didn’t even think about using her as a taste tester! He also knows that she isn’t who she says she is so he needed to see if she could possibly be trying to assasinate him.

  423. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I can understand what you’re saying, but I never looked at The Mountain as High Fantasy as I read the books honestly. He was just a big mean brute of a knight that did the Lannister’s biddingbecause he enjoyed hurting and killing people.

    I did see Gregor as something more than normal in ADwD when he seemingly becomes Ser Roberrt Strong… but at that point he was not the Lannisters really either.

  424. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Dany’s Knickers: Is Game of Thrones actually better when it deviates from the book but keeps hitting the ‘book milestones’?

    For me this is a no-brainer. YES! All the episodes I’ve loved have been the ones where they took the most risks/made the most changes while staying true to the overall story. All the episodes that have been “meh” for me are the ones where they tried to stay too strictly to “this is how it is in the book”. D&D have really hit their stride, and I think they have more confidence because they are turning out GREAT work that is very true to the source AND allows for book fans to be surprised.

    So, in short, YES, GoT is better when D&D “go off script” (so to speak).

  425. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    LOL!! Well, since you just posted it without the Spoiler Tags it’s kind of a moot point.

    Gregory Kelton: QFT.

    @WIC: You need to do it.

  426. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Meg: He seemed to be using her as a taste tester, without her knowledge. He had just complained about the “assassination attempt.”

    a HA! That makes perfect sense and is fitting with the kind of cunning Twyin is capable of. It also fits with him having figured out that she is not just some low-born girl (I don’t think he just figured it out from “my lord”, that’s just his way of letting her know that he knows.)

  427. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    I agree 100%. In the book Theon has a realization about where they are after looking at the Stark pin. To me that ensures that he did, in fact, know that they were in the crypt and knowing this he decides to let them be.

  428. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    You know,

    Sometimes I forget just how amazing this show is. The acting is great, the sets are beautiful, the production is top notch, the writing is intriguing. While watching each episode you can just sit back and be transported into the world of Westeros. D&D truly have done a great job at bringing this book saga to life on the TV screen. We all sit here and nitpick and bitch and complain about tiny little details. But overall, 98% of this show is truly epic and wonderful. It really sucks that it is almost over already and we will have to wait a whole year to see 10 more episodes. I am starting to get angry that there is only 10 per year… Again I am GREEDY!!!

    There is nothing else like this on TV. What am I going to do? Sucks…..

  429. Kalasin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Ok, here’s my new theory. Sorry if someone else already came up with this but I can’t read 427 comments.

    Since Jon never let Ygritte go, he doesn’t have that as evidence of his waivering loyalties when he has to convince the wildlings that he is coming over to their side. So he’s going to have to sleep with her right off the bat to prove to her (and them) that he’s turned. At the end of this season. That seems to flow from all of the heavy banter this episode. After Qhorin tells him to go undercover, of course! (still can’t live with that being cut)

    Just a thought.

  430. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Kalasin,

    They are going to have Jon kill Qhorin, no dount about it. Maybe it wont happen exactly like the books but make no mistake Jon will kill Qhorin… It will be a very tense and sad scene.

  431. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    I’m probably the only one who feels this way, but I thought that (show) Ygritte was so damn annoying I was wishing Jon would just punch her in her perfect teeth.

  432. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Wonderful post. I agree 100%.

    Arthur:
    You know,

    Sometimes I forget just how amazing this show is.The acting is great, the sets are beautiful, the production is top notch, the writing is intriguing.While watching each episode you can just sit back and be transported into the world of Westeros.D&D truly have done a great job at bringing this book saga to life on the TV screen.We all sit here and nitpick and bitch and complain about tiny little details.But overall, 98% of this show is truly epic and wonderful.It really sucks that it is almost over already and we will have to wait a whole year to see 10 more episodes.I am starting to get angry that there is only 10 per year…Again I am GREEDY!!!

    There is nothing else like this on TV.What am I going to do? Sucks…..

  433. Winnie
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    You know,

    Sometimes I forget just how amazing this show is.The acting is great, the sets are beautiful, the production is top notch, the writing is intriguing.While watching each episode you can just sit back and be transported into the world of Westeros.D&D truly have done a great job at bringing this book saga to life on the TV screen.We all sit here and nitpick and bitch and complain about tiny little details.But overall, 98% of this show is truly epic and wonderful.It really sucks that it is almost over already and we will have to wait a whole year to see 10 more episodes.I am starting to get angry that there is only 10 per year…Again I am GREEDY!!!

    There is nothing else like this on TV.What am I going to do? Sucks…..

    Agreed! I have done my share of complaining/ worrying…,BUT, it is the best show on tv! Absolutely brilliant! the actors and writing are top notch. I eagerly wait for Sunday to roll around to be transported to this fantastical world. Dreading the fact that in 3 weeks from now, a year will need to pass until season 3- ugh! Waiting will blow…..enjoying the ride for now!

  434. Stephen
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    I think they should have written the mountain out of this season (easily done really) so that could get the original actor back for season 3/4.

  435. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    Ian Whyte is just fine and not nearly as skinny as people are making him out to be. He’s pretty built. And his voice rocks. It doesn’t sound like there was a happy split between Conan Stevens and production, so I doubt we’ll see him again. No big whoop, Gregor’s not a big role.

  436. Kalasin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I don’t dispute that. That goes side by side with my theory. I think they both happen.

  437. Stephen
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Actually I don’t think it will be that sad as they have not built Quorin up enough, nor have they built a significant relationship between Jon and Quorin. So the impact will be limited i think. This might very well be a big mistake in story telling. Hopefully something is coming we have not thought of to clean it up.

  438. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Jordan Healey,

    Jaime is not a kinslayer for killing his cuzo, kinslaying is the killing a close relative (Immediate family) according to wikipedia

    and is also supported by the fact that Jaime could have easily killed his cousin in battle if his Frey father decided to support his family instead of his wife’s family. If that would of happened he would not be a kinslayer. If Jaime met Tyrion on a battle and killed him, regardless of the situation = Kinslaying

    in a world in which Houses are constantly sending daughter off to other Houses, it would be far to easy to commit kinslaying if killing un-immediate family counted

  439. SeVv
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    but it is a big role

  440. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Eugene Toussaint:
    Jordan Healey,

    Jaime is not a kinslayer for killing his cuzo, kinslaying is the killing a close relative (Immediate family) according to wikipedia

    This may have been why he spent so much time trying to identify Alton’s mom. I took it as him trying to get a handle on just how distant this cousin was so that he would be distant enough to kill w/o it being a kinslayer problem.

  441. Horea M
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Please, does anyone know the ending song?

  442. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    sounds about right, I mean I am with everyone else. If what he did counted as kinslaying, he character is basically ruined b/c it truly make it difficult to almost impossible for anybody (specifically Brienne) to ever see anything good in him.

    Kinslaying is worse than kingslaying, its like the thing the gods curse you the most for and actions in view of the gods play a huge role in how people are seen and who they actually are in the series, especially in the Frey’s downfall

  443. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Horea M:
    Please, does anyone know the ending song?

    It’s an original song from the season two soundtrack. The soundtrack will be released on May 29th. You can pre-order it here.

  444. Johnny Reno
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Langkard:
    Rickon had multiple lines!He has darn strong hands to crack a walnut like that too.Yay, Art Parkinson!

    Hodor was cracking them and handing them to Rickon.

  445. Juan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    It took Catelyn five episodes to travel to the Stormlands and back.
    It took Littlefinger three episodes to travel to the Stormlands, and then to Harrenhal.
    It took Theon five episodes to travel to the Iron islands and then Winterfell.

    It took Ser Alton Lannister one episode to travel to King’s Landing.
    WHY HAS IT TAKEN HIM FIVE EPISODES TO GET BACK? Perhaps the Ep2 scene with the Small Council discussing Robb’s terms should have been postponed a couple episodes.

    Also thinking that Sansa’s Florian (Ser Dontos), should have been introduced by now, or at least done in the next episode. Else she’ll have no reason not to escape King’s Landing with the Hound (if they don’t cut/change that scene)

  446. DavidBC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    i’m starting to get a strong feeling that Dagmer is Ramsay…

  447. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Juan: It took Catelyn five episodes to travel to the Stormlands and back.
    It took Littlefinger three episodes to travel to the Stormlands, and then to Harrenhal.
    It took Theon five episodes to travel to the Iron islands and then Winterfell.

    It took Ser Alton Lannister one episode to travel to King’s Landing.
    WHY HAS IT TAKEN HIM FIVE EPISODES TO GET BACK? Perhaps the Ep2 scene with the Small Council discussing Robb’s terms should have been postponed a couple episodes.

    Also thinking that Sansa’s Florian (Ser Dontos), should have been introduced by now, or at least done in the next episode. Else she’ll have no reason not to escape King’s Landing with the Hound (if they don’t cut/change that scene)

      

    The time between the episodes is not constant. Even in the books Martin has said that one of the reasons he doesn’t give exact distances and time-frames is that he doesn’t want people getting hung up on stupid shit like this.

    Dontos could show up next episode, or not until next season and Sansa doesn’t go with the hound because he’s a drunken creepy guy who scares her.

  448. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC:
    i’m starting to get a strong feeling that Dagmer is Ramsay…

    …yes. Ramsey Bolton left the dreadfort and has been posing as a low level iron-islander. All as part of his brilliant plan to get into Winterfell. Because he knew Theon would come home and that things would play out this way.

    Some of you over-think these things.

  449. DavidBC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Erik,

    Roose knew that Theon was being sent home.

    Theon got the idea to attack Winterfell from Dagmer.

    Dagmer has been filling all of Reeks parts from the book…

    It could be an interesting way to throw book readers off…plus the actor has that Ramsay look…and looks a lot like Roose.

  450. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC:
    Erik,

    plus the actor has that Ramsay look…and looks a lot like Roose.

    I think the biggest problem here is that the actor looks WAY too old to be the son of Roose.

  451. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC,

    Ok, but even if Roose knew Theon was going home, how would he get Ramsey to the Iron Islands before Theon arrived? How would Ramsey pass himself off as an Ironborn? How would he ensure that Ramsey ended up on Theon’s boat? How would he know that Theon would listen to Ramsey and not just follow his fathers orders?

    There are just way too many variable for this to have been a plan.

  452. Jaime Lannister
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Dagmer’s actor is older than Roose’s.

    There’s the red light, right there. Please stop with the Dagmer = Ramsay Snow theories. >.<

  453. I know nothing
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    An off hand theory about Jon and Halfhand.

    What if Jon is captured and joins the wildlings, and in the last scene cuts down the Halfhand to prove his worth. There is no conversation between the Halfhand and Jon. The entire talk of the off season would be whether Jon has actually betrayed the Nights Watch. The truth could be told next season in backstory but it would make for some memorable tension as the possibility of a Stark bastard being a betrayer would drive a lot of reaction.

  454. DavidBC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Erik,

    You underestimate the abilities of Ramsay Bolton. He is a master manipulator!

    Roose couldn’t gaurantee any of this would happen, but he is smart, hates the Starks, and wants to be Warden of the North… So he would take a shot and see how things worked out.

    Also, Ramsay could have been imbedded in Robb’s camp already…or maybe the distance just doesn’t matter…considering Theon got to Winterfell rather quickly.

  455. Erica
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    How does Robb going to the Crag mean Talisa is Jojen/Meera?

    Dreamlife,

  456. Jillian
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    The biggest miss of season 2 for me has been Dany’s wardrobe. I get the Dothraki garb and I love the elegant dresses (like at Xaro’s garden party or whatever) but what is with the weird mix she’s been wearing the past 2 episodes? It’s like she puts on the Qarth version of a child’s party dress over her Dothraki pants. And I love Margaery’s dresses, so it’s not as though I’m put off by things being a little different fashion-wise, I just think they keep missing with Dany.

  457. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC:
    Erik,

    You underestimate the abilities of Ramsay Bolton. He is a master manipulator!

    Roose couldn’t gaurantee any of this would happen, but he is smart, hates the Starks, and wants to be Warden of the North… So he would take a shot and see how things worked out.

    Also, Ramsay could have been imbedded in Robb’s camp already…or maybe the distance just doesn’t matter…considering Theon got to Winterfell rather quickly.

    If it worked out that way I wouldn’t think “oh wow roose is more clever than I thought.” I would think “oh wow that’s some pretty shitty convoluted writing, worthy of LOST.”

  458. Northern Warrior
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    The key to Talisa’s story is: the first amputee. If she wasn’t a banner woman of the Lannisters, how did she know that boy was a simple fisherman?

    Like the changes to Qarth et all.
    Can’t wait for Joffrey to get his full measure GoT’s version of justice.

    More wolves, please.

  459. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC,

    I am EXTREMELY doubtful that this could even be a possibility. NO WAY. That would be the stupidest change ever and entirely unbelievable. SERIOUSLY.

  460. DavidBC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Jaime Lannister: Dagmer’s actor is older than Roose’s.There’s the red light, right there. Please stop with the Dagmer = Ramsay Snow theories. >.<

    I don’t think this is true…but i’m having trouble finding age information for Michael McElhatton.

  461. paynete
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC: Erik, Roose knew that Theon was being sent home.Theon got the idea to attack Winterfell from Dagmer.Dagmer has been filling all of Reeks parts from the book…It could be an interesting way to throw book readers off…plus the actor has that Ramsay look…and looks a lot like Roose.

    I agree, I think it is Ramsay. And if so then excellent! Also he appears more clean shaven than the other iron born that we have seen.

  462. Shock Me
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Erik,

    I think it is much more likely that Dagmer Cleftjaw was given some of the lines and actions of Reek and that Reek’s later actions will be accomplished next season by Ramsay/Reek himself.

  463. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me:
    Erik,

    I think it is much more likely that Dagmer Cleftjaw was given some of the lines and actions of Reek and that Reek’s later actions will be accomplished next season by Ramsay/Reek himself.

    Here Here! Ramsay should be a young 20′s in age at MOST, and this Dagmer looks too old to be Roose’s bastard. Agree with your premise.

  464. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Juan, you’re thinking way too hard. You’re gonna ruin the show for yourself. Just relax and enjoy it.

    Juan:
    It took Catelyn five episodes to travel to the Stormlands and back.
    It took Littlefinger three episodes to travel to the Stormlands, and then to Harrenhal.
    It took Theon five episodes to travel to the Iron islands and then Winterfell.

    It took Ser Alton Lannister one episode to travel to King’s Landing.
    WHY HAS IT TAKEN HIM FIVE EPISODES TO GET BACK? Perhaps the Ep2 scene with the Small Council discussing Robb’s terms should have been postponed a couple episodes.

    Also thinking that Sansa’s Florian (Ser Dontos), should have been introduced by now, or at least done in the next episode. Else she’ll have no reason not to escape King’s Landing with the Hound (if they don’t cut/change that scene)

  465. Ed
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Arya: “Have you met many stonemasons, my Lord?”

    Tywin: “Careful now, girl.”

  466. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Might a woman add how much this episode ROCKED!!!???!!! Wow, had to watch it twice to really absorb everything…it was packed with everything you could possibly want, except no Jaqen. Oh well, maybe next week.

  467. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    I know nothing:
    An off hand theory about Jon and Halfhand.

    What if Jon is captured and joins the wildlings, and in the last scene cuts down the Halfhand to prove his worth.There is no conversation between the Halfhand and Jon. The entire talk of the off season would be whether Jon has actually betrayed the Nights Watch.The truth could be told next season in backstory but it would make for some memorable tension as the possibility of a Stark bastard being a betrayer would drive a lot of reaction.

    I think that would be neat as long as whatever the flashback was, you saw it happening in the episode, even if you didn’t get the details. To clarify, Halfhand and Jon being left alone, for example, at some point where we cannot hear the conversation. Add in some meaningful only in retrospect conversation when they fight — it needs to be something believable afterwards. But it would be very cool even for someone that knows what is going on.

  468. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer: purplejilly, I agree 100%. In the book Theon has a realization about where they are after looking at the Stark pin. To me that ensures that he did, in fact, know that they were in the crypt and knowing this he decides to let them be.

    Hmmm. What I got from that scene in the books was Theon accepting Reek’s plan to kill the miller’s boys and dress them as Bran and Rickon, not that Theon or Reek had any idea Bran and Rickon were hiding at Winterfell. If he had even suspected that, he would have torn Winterfell apart looking for them. Why let them live if they could pop out and expose him as a coward and a liar?

    No, Theon deserves no slack on that. Don’t let your sympathy for Theon based on what happens to him later blind you to what a monster he is.

  469. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany: Sansa’s blood scene-beautifully done, just as I imagined and this is the first time I liked Shae. I am starting to see where they are going with her character now. By the time D&D are done with the viewer, we will like Shae and feel remorse for what Tyrion ends up doing, I guarantee it.

    Not a chance in seven hells. I don’t care how good Shae is to Sansa – and I see nothing that is not self-serving so far – that filthy bitch’s lying testimony at Tyrion’s trial will ensure her death inspires nothing but cheers.

  470. Arthur
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned all that much,

    Looks like D&D have grown out of their “Sexposition” stage and evolved to a much more clever and meaningful way to tell back-story (Arya and Tywin conversations). I really enjoy this kind of dialog. From the 1st few episodes maybe a false alarm went off in my brain with all the Ros scenes. I am so happy she hasn’t been in any scenes these past episodes. There was no really legitimate excuse to use her (other then to show breasts). Everything we needed to know about Joffrey/Littlefinger could have been done in a much more clever way, without Ros. Also, with Jon and Robb on the crest of their new relationships. It wont be long before we can have some meaningful romantic sex scenes (True Blood style). And that by itself will be a big improvement.

    Overall, this season is starting to unfold and come together as a very good season. Just as good as season 1. The few minor concerns I have had have been taking care of.

    My concerns were;

    1). Ros… At first it looked like she would be getting as much scenes as the major characters and D&D were going to pickup right where they left off on season 1 with her. Using her to show nudity and pushing the boundaries of sexual content on TV shows. But that wasn’t the case. I can live with her being shown every so often, would much rather her be killed off though.

    2). CGI… I thought D&D would give us really awful CGI with the “budget” excuse. Not the case, the dire wolves and dragons look amazing.

    3). The Mountain… Yeah I liked his voice too. The scene with Tywin was good and he seemed dark and evil. I just wish they would give him some shoulder pads or something. He just looks very narrow-shouldered and not like the beefy, muscle packed Mountain I always imagined.

    4). Not having the Reeds (Meera)… With every episode that passes I am growing more and more confident we will see the Reeds or just Meera. Osha is awesome and I love her but Bran needs his friends. By this time in the book (Bran and company leaving Winterfell) Jojen and Meera have already helped Bran and explained to him how to consciously warg. Since Osha has not explained any of this to Bran, yet at least, I am confident they are leaving all the “Warging and Greendream” stuff for the Reeds (Meera) to explain.

    These are just my opinions. I know a lot of you disagree and do not like what I have to say. Sorry if this bothers you but I just wanted to express my thoughts with fellow book/TV series fans…

  471. NotoriousPYG
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    Yellow Dog: Not a chance in seven hells.I don’t care how good Shae is to Sansa – and I see nothing that is not self-serving so far – that filthy bitch’s lying testimony at Tyrion’s trial will ensure her death inspires nothing but cheers.

    ^this

  472. Kalasin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I dunno – this show has never done a single flashback, and I don’t see them starting now. Besides, I think the fact that Jon is under orders is important to the development of the story and character. I think having it uncertain will alienate the lage number of non-book fans who are already really iffy on Jon. He has to start doing something right. Plus, turning him into a potental villan, while it may be in line with the show overall, is very contrary to his character and the way his story is told. I think it would backfire, personally.

  473. Liz B.
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    persephone88,

    You actually see the “Miller’s boys” (farmers in this one) being herded into a building just as Theon arrives at the farm. You just know what’s coming…

    The scene with Cersei and Tyrion (with Cersei crying) actually happened in ACoK, so that’s sensical. Even better, because the look Tyrion gives her is priceless.

  474. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    What I really love about this episode is how the title “A man without honor” and theme touched on just about every scene. Unlike last week where the title loosely fit the theme of the episode, this one works on so many levels.

    Start by looking at Jaime Lannister. He gave up on the noble idea of honor a long time ago. Too many conflicts by following the code arose from it, and conflicted completely with his view of right and wrong while watching what the Mad King was capable of. The day he shoved his sword into the Mad King, he threw out the book of honor. Killing the king he swore to protect meant his death, he accepted it. He didn’t try to run and hide the fact he did it. He was proud of his decision and it felt like justice, regardless of the consequences to him. The fact he survived to serve King Robert probably shocked him, for he had already accepted his fate. He would play along, but from then on there were only two people he would truly protect, his brother and sister. That was the honor he would live by for the rest of his life.

    Now Jaime the captive has been begging for death. Last season he pleads with Catelyn to grab a rock and repeatedly strike him until he was dead. She wouldn’t oblige. Earlier this season he mocks Robb in hopes to make him angry enough to kill him. Robb thinks he is threatening Jaime with Greywind, but really Jaime is inviting him to do it. He gave up on his life a long time ago, death would be better. Jaime doesn’t kill Alton so he can live, he does it so he can die. It was his way of forcing the issue, he had no illusions he would actually escape. But he had to create the illusion so someone would finally kill him.

    Then we can look at Theon Greyjoy. Raised by the Ned Stark in the hopes of influencing him into being a honorable man. But the Greyjoy’s have their own idea’s of honor, and a culture that fits their lifestyle. Theon is trapped between how he was raised and how his culture expects him to act. In trying to balance the two sides, he is destroying both. He has lost himself, unlike Jaime who many view without honor, Jaime knows who he is and what he holds important. Jaime still has honor when it comes to his siblings. Theon is grasping for an ideal that is in complete conflict. He wants to be honorable and good to his subjects as Ned Stark. He wants the love and praise of his father that Yara receives. The hunt for Bran and Rickon is another example of how destructive the two ideas are when you try to combine them. The Iron Men see him as weak, the folks left at Winterfell see him as a turn cloak. He is truly lost, as is his honor. Only by deciding who he is, will he be able to find honor again.

    Next let’s take a look at Joffrey Baratheon. Even though he wasn’t in this episode, he was very much a part of this episode and is truly “A Man without Honor.” For Joffrey, honor is for other people, not for him. He is the King, he is not bound by honor. He commands and others are honored to obey, or so he thinks. Cersei, Tyrion and the Hound all realize this about Joffrey. They also recognize the danger Sansa is in. The Hound has pledged to do what he can to protect her. Cersei is giving her advice to help her cope, just as Cersei had to cope with the situation she was in. But what are Tyrion and Cersei going to do about Joffrey? The root of their power flows from this bastard who thinks he is Robert’s heir that has no honor. A kid who takes pleasure in being cruel to others. It’s the classic finger in the dam problem. To remove the finger means the destruction of the dam. You can’t repair the dam without removing the finger, and the dam may still break on its own anyway.

    And last there is Jon Snow. Now by no means do I think Jon Snow is a man without honor. But I include him in the list because this is the first time we see his honor being tested with ideas by those who honor means nothing and survival means everything. They don’t call someone king out of any code of honor, they call him king because they chose him for a king. Jon grew up equating honor to being a good person. His Nights Watch brothers have demonstrated to a point that there are still good people who don’t follow his strict code of honor. Now he will have to decide about those who completely reject his code of honor. What will it mean if he finds there are good people among the Wildlings?

    Anyway, since the elimination of the essay thread I’m posting a short one in this thread.

  475. zerowolf
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Solar,

    I think it’s pretty much established that Jaime is capable of just about anything.
    Killing a king he is sworn to defend.
    Sleeping with his sister.
    Pushing a child to his death to conceal the above incest (failed).
    Attacking the Hand of the King.
    Why should he flinch from killing a distant cousin who means nothing to him?
    He is a cold blooded killer with an honour code somewhat different from that held by many around him – i.e his own.
    That’s what is so good about him.
    Later,however…

  476. LordDavos12
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Kalasin: Alan, I dunno – this show has never done a single flashback, and I don’t see them starting now. Besides, I think the fact that Jon is under orders is important to the development of the story and character. I think having it uncertain will alienate the lage number of non-book fans who are already really iffy on Jon. He has to start doing something right. Plus, turning him into a potental villan, while it may be in line with the show overall, is very contrary to his character and the way his story is told. I think it would backfire, personally.

    There was a Sansa flashback last night :oO

  477. Tyrion4Lyfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Jillian:
    The biggest miss of season 2 for me has been Dany’s wardrobe.I get the Dothraki garb and I love the elegant dresses (like at Xaro’s garden party or whatever) but what is with the weird mix she’s been wearing the past 2 episodes?It’s like she puts on the Qarth version of a child’s party dress over her Dothraki pants.And I love Margaery’s dresses, so it’s not as though I’m put off by things being a little different fashion-wise, I just think they keep missing with Dany.

    I actually like the outfit she was wearing when confronting the “spice king” in S2E6. It reminded me of Egyptian garb (from antiquity).

  478. The Rabbit
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    The best season 2 episode so far.

    Great acting, great theme, great pace.

    I just loved it!

  479. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    I disagree – I just don’t think GRRM would have put the Stark pin in the chapter if it did not have a specific purpose (making Theon think that they are probably in a place that’s important to the Starks – the crypt). There is always a possibility that I was wrong but that part really stuck out to me because I couldn’t really figure out why the pin would make Theon know where they are but it really only makes sense to assume that he figured out where they are.

  480. jkb
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    random stuff:
    – mountain defo needs shoulderpads, i played a gnome in world of warcraft for 6 years and believe me, armor+shoulderpads will make everyone look bigger and more ‘badass’ (for the lack of better word), no matter how small or thin you might be ;p his voice is just awesome though
    – i like tywin+arya stuff but i think they’re overdoing it now, if things continue like this, next episode he will adopt her. enough is enough
    – no chain ;/
    – ygritte is such an annoying bigmouth, she wouldn’t STFU. love her ;p
    – say what you will about jaimie but nikolaj was just amazing
    – loved the qarth scenes. did the assassination of 13 happen like that in the books? so glad i rushed thru them sometimes ;p
    – is cat gonna cut jaimie’s hand?
    – final scene, holy fuck. if I didn’t know what happens i’d shit my pants big time

  481. Ron
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    At first I agreed that the changes weren’t necessary, but after talking to my girlfriend and my female co-workers (I converted them all to fans of the book and series) I realize that they are all in love with Jon Snow and were really looking forward to seeing a love story develop with him in it. Think it is smart for the show to develop a love story to keep the female audience engaged. The changes won’t effect any of the outcomes and I kinda like the actress they picked.
    Derpstradamus,

  482. SLIM
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    I think the decision to have Jaime kill a relative, even a distant one, was a mistake on the part of the ‘forTV’ writers.

    My impression of Jaime has been that he has his own non-traditional code of honor. Not the typical code of honor which would bind him to blindly obey order’s and/or vows. His slaying of the mad king was a moral decision to save thousands of Kings Landing residents from genocide. His personal code seems to allow him to make decisions to rebel against a vow and/or order for what he considers the greater good. Despite how despicable his shoving Bran out the window is, he was ultimately a father who knew that if news of his incest were revealed, the lives of his children would be put into jeopardy. He knew saving them would be no easy task either as King Robert constantly demonstrated his bloodlust by never relenting his hunt for the lives of the last Targarean children. Imagine how King Robert would react to knowledge of the incest. I can see how knowing this would drive a man/father who considers himself honorable into such a vile crime as attempting to kill an innocent child.

    But to kill a relative, even a lowly one, as part of a stratagem for freedom seems to breach his code of conduct as I interpret it from the books. This whole part sits badly in the pit of my stomach. As I got to know Jamie through the chapters and by the end of the fifth book, I was able to mostly justify his actions, and accept him as a heroic character with a murky past. But now, and with GRRM’s concent, Jamie is shown to arbitrarily use the life of a relative enthralled with hero worship, for his own selfish desires, this just disgusts me. By allowing D&D to portray Jamie in such a way I wonder if we have accidently seen GRRM’s ultimate intention for the Jamie’s character in the last few books. That at the close Jamie truly has no honor and will end up an unredeemable villain at the end of the song.

  483. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    I understand where you are coming from, but I think they are going to make Shae more of a victim in the show. Like she had no choice to do what she did in order to live. I agree she is hateful in the books, but I am seeing them building Shae differently here.

  484. Reverse Nielsen
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone else think the farm was a bit too modern? Nineteenth century or newer, if you ask me.

  485. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    SLIM: But to kill a relative, even a lowly one, as part of a stratagem for freedom seems to breach his code of conduct as I interpret it from the books. This whole part sits badly in the pit of my stomach.

    He didn’t do it for freedom he did it for death. He would rather die than be a prisoner. Cat and Robb refused to kill him, so he is trying to force them into killing him by escaping. It was a dumb plan in hopes of actually escaping, but a pretty good one to get himself killed.

  486. Praise R'hllor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    This is a strange one…

    All season I’ve been loving the episodes as they are, yet at the same time being torn towards wishing they stuck closer to the books.

    This episode is a prime example… loved it for the most part, many excellent scenes, and I personally love the changes to the Dany storyline. However – I’m not so sure about Jon’s story. Yes, Ygritte is fantastic, and yes, we have been given some valuable time to build up her relationship with Jon, but seriously – Qhorin NEEDS to ask Jon if his sword is sharp at some point… I’ve never known one short word to give such goosebumps as “sharp” did on my first read through.

    Also… I’m a little bit concerned by the promo for next episode that Weasel Soup may not be in!! (although it does look like Tywin is on the march, which bodes well for the Blackwater, but we could really do with Roose heading for Harrenhal asap).

  487. Bloodwrath
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    guess Jaime never came off to me as a totally coldblooded asshole, even in his worst moments (i.e. throwing Bran off the tower).

    The attempted murder of a child wasn’t definitively enough to qualify for the title of cold-blooded asshole, eh? Also, JL doesn’t really impress me anyway. For all of his talk, I didn’t see him cut down any truly great knights/fighters at any point in time, and Brienne made him look like a fool to boot. Victarion would annihilate him. He’s the poster child for spoiled brats who wasted a load of potential.

  488. Webg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    I thought Sansa asking the Hound why he’s so hateful seemed odd since he’s been either silent or nice to her. It’s like she read the book. I suspect something was lost in the final cut.

  489. Kalasin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    That was a dream of something that already happened. It wasn’t new information. I don’t really see them having Jon dream a whole conversation he supposedly had a season before just as a way to get it in later.

  490. Praise R'hllor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Also… no Varys for 4 whole episodes now.. what the fuck is up with that?! I was anticipating loads of screentime for him this season, as would reflect the book

  491. Dave in DC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Clob,

    That was my thought. There has to be a piece where Jon is ordered by the Halfhand to go in with the Wildlings. I can deal with many of the changes to the story line, but to change that one would be bad indeed.

  492. Webg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Did they have extra scenes in the DVDs for Season 1? Do you think they’ll ever create DVD versions with extra scenes? I suspect some things were left out during editing that could help the story.

  493. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Bloodwrath,

    It is implied that he won several tournaments.
    He never saw battle because the Mad King kept him close as a hostage. Which is why he would rather die than be a hostage again. And Brienne beat him after being stuck in a cell for several months unable to train and given just enough food to survive.. You can’t claim Jaime was in top form during his fight with Brienne.

  494. Ashaïese
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    This is just a guess but I’m pretty sure Dany will be (somehow) saved by Barristan Selmy at the House of the Undying in next episode. The way he was reminded to the viewer in Jaime’s speech seems too big to be a “coincidence”

  495. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany: Shae more of a victim in the show. Like she had no choice to do what she did in order to live. I agree she is hateful in the books, but I am seeing them building Shae differently here.

    Now that would be one change I could not accept, even worse than nicening-up Cersei. I wish you were wrong, but I’m afraid you’re right.

  496. Joohnson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    I watched it with two new viewers and they both nailed the ending straight away. They recognised two kids running around in that holdfast(or whatever) and correctly guessed, or rather knew, that Bran and Rickon are safe. Disappointing. Was it that obvious in the book as well? Remember thinking they were dead.

  497. morbiczer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    jkb: – loved the qarth scenes. did the assassination of 13 happen like that in the books? so glad i rushed thru the books sometimes ;p

    That entire Qarth story line is made up for the TV show, it has almost no relation to what happens in the book. :)

    The Thirteen are not the rulers of Qarth, they do not get assassinated, the dragons do not get stolen, etc.

  498. James
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Alex,

    Well, Larry is an idiot after all.. so why not?

  499. Leuf
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    I thought the reason Jaime killed Alton rather than just injure was he didn’t want to leave the Starks with any Lannister’s prisoner. He does everything he can to get himself killed when he fails at escaping. Alton would have just slowed him down escaping, and he wouldn’t have the opportunity to kill him after if he failed.

    I’m not liking the changes, but I’m going to try to focus on the positives. I will say that I think Arya and Tywin is starting to get stale for me though.

    Rose Leslie is a perfect Ygritte, so I can understand why they wanted to rework Jon’s story to get them together sooner. Nickolaj was great, as was Alfie.

    Third episode in a row without Ros!

  500. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer: I just don’t think GRRM would have put the Stark pin in the chapter if it did not have a specific purpose (making Theon think that they are probably in a place that’s important to the Starks – the crypt). There is always a possibility that I was wrong but that part really stuck out to me because I couldn’t really figure out why the pin would make Theon know where they are but it really only makes sense to assume that he figured out where they are. Kingthlayer

    So interesting that you read it so differently. I saw the pin as a cloak pin that Reek got from the boys’ rooms, so they could dress the miller’s boys as Stark children. I don’t remember anything that implied the pins came from the crypt. If Reek knew they were in the crypt, why not just drag them out? Why the charade? I also don’t remember anything that implied Theon knew where they were, just that he grasped Reek’s idea of using the Stark cloaks and pins to disguise the miller’s boys as Starks.
    However, I failed to re-read ACOK before the second season started – now I’m going to have to read it again, even more slowly than the second time last summer.

  501. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Webg,

    D&D have stated that they really do not have any “deleted scenes” to speak of and likely will not as the series progresses. The filming schedule is so tight that they use what they film and only film what they need.

    I guess there could be a few scenes that were edited for time… but I doubt there are many. I would not mind an extended scene or two in the BD/ DVD sets!

  502. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    good points all – I may has misinterpreted it as your reading makes good sense

  503. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Kingthlayer,

    I never liked Theon from the start and quickly grew to hate him, so I always interpret everything to his detriment. Even after ADWD, I still think he hasn’t suffered enough.

  504. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan, nice essay! I’m not 100% convinced that Jaime really would kill someone so coldbloodedly (he’s a killer but a hotblooded and impulsive one, IMO) but you certainly provided a thoughtful alternate interpretation of the scene.

    I’m guess I just disagree that Jaime has such a huge deathwish at this point – doesn’t he want to live to get back to Cersei? I often find myself wishing TV Jaime would get the TV Theon or TV Cersei treatment (which is something I never thought I’d say.) Theon and Cersei are villains but they’re complex and complicated and I have a lot of sympathy for them, though not for their actions. In contrast, throughout the course of the TV series, I have lost the sympathy and liking for Jaime that I came in with from having read the books. I’m hard-pressed to think it’s NCW’s fault, because he is a good actor, so I have to blame the writing.

    I spent so much time fulminating about the Jaime-kills-Alton scene that I forgot to say that while the vows speech to Catelyn was the point in the books where I first started to think there was something more to Jaime than pure black-hearted villainy. The TV version just didn’t work for me at all, perhaps because it was split between two seasons.

    Leuf, the Starks have thousands of Lannister prisoners, so why would leaving Alton alive have made a difference? Besides, I’m sure Lord Karstark would have been happy to kill Alton after he (apparently) assisted Jaime in killing Karstark’s son. So either way, Alton dies.

  505. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Leuf,

    Interesting take on Jaime’s scene… I suppose that could be possible.

    I took it more as Jaime knowing that Alton was supposed to be under Stark protection as an envoy or messenger. By attacking him, he forced the gaurd to open the cell. In the immediate chaos after Jaime killed Alton the guard did not think to call for help or more Stark bannermen… he just opened the pen door to see what was wrong with the messenger who should have been kept safe.

    So he knew that the chaos might allow him to escape and if not his recapture may get himself killed. Thus ending any leverage the Starks have over his father. If he is dead, the Starks canot use him against Tywin, Cersei or Joffrey.

  506. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Do people really not remember that Catelyn asks for Brienne’s sword in the book too? And guess what, she didn’t cut his hand off.The episode 8 synopsis says “Robb is betrayed.” I’m guessing the betrayal is Cat releasing Jaime.

    I agree. I’m just hoping against hope that she’ll receive a raven with the news of Bran and Rickon’s deaths before she releases him. I need that to be part of her motivation.

  507. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    Likewise.
    I do enjoy disliking him though unlike some characters I just dislike and dread reading about.

    I had a thought during my last re-read of the books. Wouldn’t it be just like the cripple, bastard and broken loving GRRM to make Theon The Prince who Was Proomised or Azor Ahai? He has literally been reborn both in salt (baptism that made him a true Ironborn) and smoke (Winterfell’s sacking results in him being reborn as Reek). Although he does not fall into the ancestral line of Aerys and Rhealla like the wood witch foresaw.

  508. Kalasin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Joohnson,

    I definitely think it was pretty obvious in the show. I haven’t heard of a single non-book reader yet who didn’t get it. I don’t remember how I felt in the books but I think I knew because of a spoiler I’d read. But it definitely worked better in print.

  509. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    darquemode:
    Leuf,

    [...] Alton was supposed to be under Stark protection as an envoy or messenger.

    If that’s true, why did Robb put him in Jamie’s pen in the first place? Yes, they have a lot of prisoners, but they must have other minor noblemen in captivity. Why not swap one out for Alton? From a military perspective, wouldn’t you want to keep your go-to messenger from exchanging information with your most valuable prisoner (unless you’re listening in on their conversations)?

  510. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Oh I agree.
    Obviosuly it was not a logical or wise decision as hindsight proves out.

    I think like most people they assumed he would be safe with “family”….. even if it was distant family.

    I am not real clear on my code of conduct with regards to messengers in Westeros. I could be wrong.

  511. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: fuelpagan, nice essay! I’m not 100% convinced that Jaime really would kill someone so coldbloodedly (he’s a killer but a hotblooded and impulsive one, IMO) but you certainly provided a thoughtful alternate interpretation of the scene.
    I’m guess I just disagree that Jaime has such a huge deathwish at this point – doesn’t he want to live to get back to Cersei? I often find myself wishing TV Jaime would get the TV Theon or TV Cersei treatment (which is something I never thought I’d say.) Theon and Cersei are villains but they’re complex and complicated and I have a lot of sympathy for them, though not for their actions. In contrast, throughout the course of the TV series, I have lost the sympathy and liking for Jaime that I came in with from having read the books. I’m hard-pressed to think it’s NCW’s fault, because he is a good actor, so I have to blame the writing.
    I spent so much time fulminating about the Jaime-kills-Alton scene that I forgot to say that while the vows speech to Catelyn was the point in the books where I first started to think there was something more to Jaime than pure black-hearted villainy. The TV version just didn’t work for me at all, perhaps because it was split between two seasons.

    Thanks.

    This really goes back to the Mad King. The Mad King used him as a hostage during the rebellion and I really think Jaime would rather be dead then be in that situation again.

    If given a choice Jaime would choose to get back to Cersei. He only left in the first place because Tyrion was in trouble. Tywin forced Jaime to attack the Riverlands instead of going to rescue Tyrion. But I think Jaime would choose death over being a hostage. You can see the sense of relief on his face when Catelyn points the sword at him.

    As I said in the essay, he accepted death a long time ago. That’s just a part of being a soldier. And there is no reason why he would think he would live after killing the king.

  512. Lord of the Oakfort
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    I didn’t hear it myself, but it was probably “only two more episodes until the season finale.”

  513. DavidBC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog: Now that would be one change I could not accept, even worse than nicening-up Cersei. I wish you were wrong, but I’m afraid you’re right.

    This “nicening up Cersei” was in the books, she actually kisses Tyrion on the cheek in this scene… and he remarks that it is the first time she ever kissed him.

    I think we are getting a nicer Cersei and a meaner Jamie in order to make each of their flips seem more drastic.

  514. DavidBC
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin: If that’s true, why did Robb put him in Jamie’s pen in the first place? Yes, they have a lot of prisoners, but they must have other minor noblemen in captivity. Why not swap one out for Alton? From a military perspective, wouldn’t you want to keep your go-to messenger from exchanging information with your most valuable prisoner (unless you’re listening in on their conversations)?

    Roose and Karstark clearly just wanted to kill Alton in this scene, they were using the overcrowded prisons as an excuse.

  515. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    What the fuck did I just see…:S

  516. Leuf
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Leuf, the Starks have thousands of Lannister prisoners, so why would leaving Alton alive have made a difference? Besides, I’m sure Lord Karstark would have been happy to kill Alton after he (apparently) assisted Jaime in killing Karstark’s son. So either way, Alton dies.

    They have Lannister soldiers, but Alton is a Lannister. Admittedly he’s not worth anywhere near what Jaime is worth as a prisoner, but still ransom-able. Jaime didn’t know the guard he killed was important and wouldn’t think that far ahead. A snap “I can’t take him with me so I have to kill him rather than leave him behind” decision fits with Jaime.

  517. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    darquemode,

    Actually, we know that there were scenes that were shot during the first season (that appeared in trailers and making-of videos, no less) that weren’t included on the DVD. Also, there have been scenes with Dontos and Irri’s death scene – that we know of – that were shot and not included in the show. I wouldn’t say they don’t have deleted scenes, but they are making a conscious choice not to make them available on the DVD/Blu-Ray sets.

  518. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Leuf: A snap “I can’t take him with me so I have to kill him rather than leave him behind” decision fits with Jaime.

    Leuf, it’s not a snap decision though, and that’s why I find the scene so out of character for Jaime (even Show!Jaime). Jaime quite deliberately lures Alton to his death by remembering (or pretending to remember) the day Alton squired for him and sympathizes with some story about squiring for Barristan Selmy and blahblah. It’s all very cold-blooded and calculating, which are never words I associate with Jaime. I think the people who are saying that it’s in character for Jaime to kill a distant cousin are missing this point of the objections of those who disagree: Yes, Jaime would kill anyone who got in his way and his impulse is to kill things to get out of his problems. What’s OUT of character for me is that he’s totally calculating and cold-blooded about it. We have never seen him do that in the books or the series; he doesn’t calculate, he acts at least until he loses his hand when he’s forced into more caution. That’s why this was, for me, out of character.

    fuelpagan: Thanks.

    You can see the sense of relief on his face when Catelyn points the sword at him.

    I wish I could say that I saw that, but I really didn’t – I think his goading Catelyn was just to get a quicker death than being torn apart by angry Stark loyalists, but I didn’t sense that his goal from the get-go was to die. I don’t know, I wish I saw this desperate deathwish-having Jaime that some of you do. Obviously, he’s a deep-dyed villain, but he’s always seemed to be someone who suffered from poor impulse control based on his emotions. I didn’t see that with his killing of Alton; I saw a cold-blooded killer who was calculating and manipulative, which are not traits I ever associate with Jaime. (Yes, he tried to murder Bran – but I wouldn’t say that he was calculating or manipulative when he did this. It was a “thing I do for love.” Killing Alton wasn’t – so that changes my perception of his character quite a bit.)

  519. Huckleberry
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Someone on another forum — I lose track of all the GoT ones I read, I think it was TWOP maybe? Or Westeros.org? one of those — called Jaime ‘badass’ for killing his cousin.

    I cringed. That was badass like all the death in The Hunger Games was badass. Ick.

    I guess I’m just really oversensitive to these kinds of things. I can’t help but think, “But Alton probably had FRIENDS and HOPES and DREAMS and they all ended RIGHT THERE.” Hah.

    Well said. Thanks

  520. Magog
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    This was fantastic episode.
    Firstly, because of the lines like this:

    1. Theon: It’s better to be cruel then weak
    2. Cercei: The more people you love, the weaker you are
    3. Xaro: Those on the margin often come to control the center
    4. Jorah: No one can survive in this world without help

    And so on, and so on, and so on…

    And secondly, because this episode ended with 4, not 1, not 2, not 3, but FOUR cliffhangers, one better than the other:

    1. Dany escaping from Pyat Pree madness
    2. Catelyn approaching Jamie with sword
    3. Jon Snow surrounded by wildlings
    4. Theon killing Bran and Rickon

    Can’t expect more than that…

  521. kindley man
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    im watching the episodes with my wife. Me a book reader and my wife a non-book reader.
    it’s really nice to see here react on the things that happen. She often does not follow the story. But she had a lot of ‘shock’ moments up until this episode.
    judging on her respons, she was not really amazed by this one. Up until now she was pumped after every episode.
    I have to agree with her, as a non-book reader, the story has to much dialoges. A book reader understands that there are certain things that have to be explained. But this episode had to much.

    Up until now the show kicks ass. Ep 7 was a bit meh. But up to ep 8, the build up to BLACKWATER!!

  522. Tomislav Bozniak
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Hodor cracked the nut, Rickon took it out of his palm..
    Langkard,

  523. Langkard
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Tomislav Bozniak:
    Hodor cracked the nut, Rickon took it out of his palm..
    Langkard,

    Yeah, I realized that when I watched it again. My mistake. I missed several things in that episode which became apparent watching it a second and third time.

    After several viewings now, I rate this most recent episode as the second best behind the third episode of this season. I expect all the rankings to be moved down by the ninth episode, however. The Blackwater!

  524. scott glennon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    This was to me, an actor’s episode. Everybody stepped up and delivered. Not just Cat and Jamie, but Arya and Tywin, Sansa and Cercei, Tyrion and Cercei (Sorry but I’ve been in love with Lena Heady since 300) Theon and Luwyn, Jon and Ygritte, good job everybody!
    As for the Dany changes, She spends alot of ACOK wandering in the desert, BUT what happens in the House of the Undying is pretty central to the entire ASOIAF story arc. I’m one of those who caters to R+L=J and a key point in that formula is the House of Undying.
    All in all another awesome episode!

  525. scott glennon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Oh, I almost forgot: “Gag him!” Gotta love Cat
    and “Keep turning Left..”

  526. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Well wow what an episode, this is easily my favortie of the season so far.

    I love the expression Theon has at the end, for the viewers it’s what have I done but for the book readers it’s will they believe this.

    Not a huge fan of the changes they made with Jamie killing his cousin, it’s suppose to be the beginning of Jamie’s journey to a sort of honorable redemption, how are the viewers suppose to show him any sympathy when he’s bashing his cousins brains in ?

    I love the changes between Tywin and Arya and for the love of god someone please make a jpeg of Tywin giving history lessons !!

    BTW wasn’t the “Mi’lord” line from ADWD ? Pretty sure ” Bolton corrects Theon/Reek about it.

    As for Dany I just wish they’d hurry up and introduce Whitebeard already.

    Oh and I must say Rose Leslie is doing an oustanding job as Ygritte, she’s nailed the character for me.

    Sophie Turner also done a fantastic job with that scene.

  527. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    Oh and clearly the episode should have been titled ” A Man Without Hodor.”

  528. Lala
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    DEAR DAVID AND DAN, STOP MAKING JON AN IDIOT.

    THANK YOU.

  529. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    And one last thing The new Mountain……….he’s more like a lanky pantomime villain, I don’t care how it’s done but bring back Conan before it’s too late otherwise a certain scene from ASOS is going to be really weak.

  530. Langkard
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer:

    Not a huge fan of the changes they made with Jamie killing his cousin, it’s suppose to be the beginning of Jamie’s journey to a sort of honorable redemption, how are the viewers suppose to show him any sympathy when he’s bashing his cousins brains in ?

    I agree in part. I think Jaime killing Alton was probably not necessary; however, I don’t think it affects Jaime’s eventual epiphany (can it be an epiphany if it evolves slowly?) in a seriously negative way. I always thought of the beginning of Jaime’s changes not being via Catelyn but instead via Brienne. And killing Alton might have a more profound effect when we get to Jaime and Lancel’s interactions in a later season. Jaime’s treatment of Alton might be seen as the polar opposite of how he comes to view things after seeing the damage that being with Cersei does to Lancel. Strange as it may seem, the murder of Alton may make Jaime’s road to redemption (if that is indeed what he is on) more dramatic and easily understood by the viewers.

  531. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Lala,

    Jon’s not an idiot he just knows nothing ;-)

  532. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer:
    Oh and clearly the episode should have been titled ” A Man WithoutHodor.”

    Ha!
    That’s great!!!

    Wait.. Varys? He does not have a hodor…
    Then again not all men have Hodor’s hodor.

    The Kingslayer:
    Lala,

    Jon’s not an idiot he just knows nothing ;-)

    Ha! XD
    You Ser are in fine form today!

  533. Virtus
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Reverse Nielsen:
    Did anyone else think the farm was a bit too modern? Nineteenth century or newer, if you ask me.

    Yes, that struck my eye as well.

  534. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Interesting point, we shall see.

  535. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    darquemode,

    lol Hodor’s Hodor is still fresh in Osha’s mind.

  536. Leuf
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: Leuf, it’s not a snap decision though, and that’s why I find the scene so out of character for Jaime

    Just because he doesn’t act on his decision immediately doesn’t mean it wasn’t a snap decision. He’s already made up his mind what to do at the beginning of the scene. Before he does it he has the conversation with him so Alton at least dies having had a chance to talk to a sort of friend. Then he tells him what he’s going to do rather than make it a total surprise, which is sort of glimmer of being honorable about it, as opposed to stabbing Aerys in the back. Then he does it quickly before Alton really has a chance to process what is happening to him. He obeys his own sort of morality about it.

    I don’t get from it that he’s a cold calculating murderer. Just that once he’s made up his mind to do something that’s it, he makes his peace with it immediately. I didn’t see the conversation as luring him in, he could have just said “come here” and Alton would have come over.

  537. Baramos
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    GRRM,

    They did in the book…Theon just doesn’t realize they’ve circled back around and hid in the basement.

  538. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: I wish I could say that I saw that, but I really didn’t – I think his goading Catelyn was just to get a quicker death than being torn apart by angry Stark loyalists, but I didn’t sense that his goal from the get-go was to die.

    Go back and watch the scene with Catelyn and Karstark. As soon as Karstark backs off they cut to Jaime and you see this look of “dammit” on his face. Then he starts back into the insults.

  539. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Leuf:
    I don’t get from it that he’s a cold calculating murderer.Just that once he’s made up his mind to do something that’s it, he makes his peace with it immediately.

    This.
    To me it is not calculating at all. It is more impulsive.

    Jaime compartmentalizes and prioritizes everything without a second thought. He needs to escape, or get killed so he is not used as leverage over his family. The rest does not matter at all.. Surely that is cold-blooded, but that is a term I have always associated with Jaime. He may not always be cold-blooded in reality, but he has no issue with portraying himself as such to most everyone.

    Plus, I think there is an element of him reclaiming a semblance of control. If he escapes his destiny is in his own hands. If he insults them into killing him he made the decision to be killed. Jaime is not one to have others control him, he’s not accustomed to it and is acting out.

  540. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    Bloodwrath: The attempted murder of a child wasn’t definitively enough to qualify for the title of cold-blooded asshole, eh? Also, JL doesn’t really impress me anyway. For all of his talk, I didn’t see him cut down any truly great knights/fighters at any point in time, and Brienne made him look like a fool to boot. Victarion would annihilate him. He’s the poster child for spoiled brats who wasted a load of potential.

    You do have a point. I guess I just saw Bran’s throw as a terrible act with a “good” reason (in Jaime’s mind, obviously not my own), whereas Alton’s death was a terrible act with a muddled reason. I think someone could probably enlighten me here — I have a poor attention span, so maybe there was a detail I missed — but I’m not sure he had to kill the kid to get Young Karstark to come by. Beating the shit out of him would have totally been enough.

    I suppose Jaime figured dead men told no tales — but I don’t think anyone would have believed Alton if he ran home after the war and said yo Fat Lannister Mama, Cuz Jaime tried to kill me! I mean, he’s Jaime, he’s the golden child of the Lannisters. And on top of that, Alton might have been so enthralled with Jaime that his resulting cognitive dissonance would just totally justify it on Jaime’s end: “Well, he needed to get out more than I do — he’s Jaime, after all…”

    But in the end, as someone said before, I think I can accept that Jaime was going slightly (or very) crazy and was in a desperate situation.

  541. Tyrion Sedai
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC:
    Erik,

    You underestimate the abilities of Ramsay Bolton. He is a master manipulator!

    Roose couldn’t gaurantee any of this would happen, but he is smart, hates the Starks, and wants to be Warden of the North… So he would take a shot and see how things worked out.

    Also, Ramsay could have been imbedded in Robb’s camp already…or maybe the distance just doesn’t matter…considering Theon got to Winterfell rather quickly.

    Wait, I have an even better theory. Theon himself is Ramsay! Think about it. Roose was smart enough to have him pose as Balon’s son to get taken in by the Starks and get 9 years of scouting information on Winterfell so he could capture it in the present day. Roose is a genius!

  542. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Bloodwrath,

    Barristan Selmy did say Jamie was one of the most natural gifted swordsman he’d ever seen, Jamie’s always had the potential but squandered his talents in the Kingsguard.

    Oh and as much as I like Victarion he’s nothing more than a brute, hell he almost went out the Drogo way had it not been for that priest.

  543. Rabbitstew
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Funny, it seems that around half of what people think are deviations are actually the way things went down in the book…
    I love what HBO is doing with the series.
    This episode was great, the repartee with so many characters was exceptional.
    Pyat Pree is one creepy mofo.
    “You know nothing Jon Snow”
    Hope House of the Undying is next week…

  544. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,

    Agreed.
    I always felt like in a one-on-one sword fight Jaime would best pretty much anyone he was against. The best swordsman of his generation.

  545. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    darquemode:
    The Kingslayer,

    Agreed.
    I always felt like in a one-on-one sword fight Jaime would best pretty much anyone he was against. The best swordsman of his generation.

    A fight between Jaime and Brienne would be a sight to behold, but alas it appears Catelyn has other plans.

  546. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    darquemode: This.
    To me it is not calculating at all. It is more impulsive.

    You don’t think every word of Jaime’s exchange with Alton was manipulative and calculating? He finds out the kid’s dream job was squiring for him, flatters him to a degree that someone less naive than Alton would find suspicious, shares his own apparent bad squiring for Selmy (I don’t believe that for a minute, sorry!) That’s not sang-froid, that’s Littlefinger (but without the sexposition or the success in achieving his goals.)

    Fuelpagan, I just don’t see it. Something is coming across to you that’s not coming across to me, which is fine. To paraphrase Tyrion, I wish I saw the Jaime that you see, because all I see is a calculating and remorseless killer. (Whereas book Jaime is an uncalculating and remorseless killer. It’s a fine line, but it matters to me!)

    PinkDragon, you made me laugh! And yes, Jaime could have manipulated Alton into killing himself at that point :P

  547. Erik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me:
    Erik,

    I think it is much more likely that Dagmer Cleftjaw was given some of the lines and actions of Reek and that Reek’s later actions will be accomplished next season by Ramsay/Reek himself.

    Oh I totally agree, I was arguing with the other guy who thought that Dagmer was Ramsey undercover.

  548. House Farwynd
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Now, what prisoner is left for Karstark to murder? Will he maybe take a limb, or will that be Catelyn’s work?

    Also, Jamie did have problems with Jory Cassel and Ned Stark both. Calling him the best swordsman of his time is a stretch, I would say.

  549. Angelina
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    What the fuck man? I am not watching this show any longer if the Stark boys died!! Too many deaths in the Stark family! Was that them?

  550. darquemode
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    No, I simply do not see it as manipulating Alton in any way whatsoever.
    Had Jaime talked Catelyn into putting Alton in the pen with him so he could use him to escape that would be manipulating Catelyn. Had he talked Alton into turning around to get Karstark attention or into being a decoy sure to be killed or anyting then that could be manipulation.

    As it was Jaime took advantage of a situation. I think it was more adaptation than manipulation. Like Maebe on Arrested Development would say “Well, that was a freebie!” He did not have to do anything or manipulate anyone and here is a tool he can use to escape. A Freebie.

    Jaime is vain and proud, why is it at all surprising he liked hearing about himself and then talked about himself?

    Plus I think the mentioning of Selmy and Jaime’s failed squiring had purpose and was true.

    First it served as a reminder or Selmy since he will be reappearing sometime soon. Second Jaime never knew where to stand or be to best serve Selmy because Jaime thinks of himself first. Then it also showed that Jaime does not see the larger picture or the long game… he simply reacts. The abilty to serve others in that manner is just not within his character. I can easily see him being an awful squire!

  551. PatD
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    I don’t really understand how people are seeing Jaime’s escape attempt as inconsistent with his character. Here is a very proud, vain, privileged and trained killer who has been dragged around the countryside, shackled in chains, living in outdoor pens with no privacy or comfort (I actually liked the dungeon setting better in the books, but never mind that). For a long time. He is OVER this shit. Bigtime. He doesn’t see any end in sight, other than to somehow force the issue. There’s no way an elite soldier of his experience ever actually expected to elude the Northmen’s camp on foot. He wasn’t scheming logically to get back to Cersei. He was just trying to put an end to it, once and for all. He practically tells us this with his comments about existing in neck irons and his own shit and not being suited for this hostage/prisoner business. He says he’s not a good prisoner like Ned probably was right up until the end. He’s warning us right there and then that he is going to do whatever it takes (he even says that he did what any “knight” would do) to end what he sees as an hopeless situation. It’s the only way he can effect some kind Lannister victory from his circumstances: end his suffering, die a soldier’s death, and remove his pawn status.

    It all makes complete sense.

    Except for his killing Alton.

    I’ve tried and tried to make sense of that and I just can’t. Not because I don’t believe Jaime was capable of it, because I think at this point…covered in filth and looking at the prospect of dying of dysentery, fever or embarrassment… he’d do a lot of unJaime like things to put an end to his imprisonment. But killing Alton, who clearly would’ve done anything to help Jaime escape, just didn’t make sense to me. He didn’t have to kill him to force the Karstark to “drop his guard.” I get that the Karstark guard’s death was necessary: it gives even more motivation to Cat for what she does, but I keep feeling like I’m missing something about why D&D had Jaime kill Alton, as far as an intelligent plot line goes.

    I don’t know how anyone could complain about the fabulous chemistry and banter between Jon and Ygritte. I thought it was wonderful TV, a badly needed light touch in a very grim episode, and it plants the seed of doubt about Jon and his oath. There’s no way/no how that Halfhand won’t have his moment. The dialogue between Jon and Ygritte wasn’t so great for its actual content (they’re young kids, for Pete’s sakes), but for the way every line was delivered. Watch the scenes again. Those two do some very fine acting in them.

    Also, I have not seen one remark on this site about that metaphorical conversation between Jaime and Alton. I wish I could get the text to that, because among other things, it’s a very philosophical analogy of ASoFaI fandom. And I don’t think that’s an accident.

  552. Hottenator
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Derpstradamus,

    I think Jon gets his scar later in book 3? I hope they’ll keep it.

  553. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere:
    Fuelpagan, I just don’t see it. Something is coming across to you that’s not coming across to me, which is fine. To paraphrase Tyrion, I wish I saw the Jaime that you see, because all I see is a calculating and remorseless killer. (Whereas book Jaime is an uncalculating and remorseless killer. It’s a fine line, but it matters to me!)

    His face tells the story as much as his words. When Alton talks about remembering the day for the rest of his life, you see regret flash across Jaime’s face. When the crowd first captures him he is smiling. When Karstark backs down he is disappointed.

    I don’t see book Jaime or show Jaime as a remorseless killer. The Mountain is a remorseless killer. You see the regret as he pushes Bran out the window. You see the regret as Alton talks about his best day of his life. He may kill as a means to an end, but he isn’t going to run through a village killing a bunch of peasants just for fun.

  554. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Hottenator:
    Derpstradamus,

    I think Jon gets his scar later in book 3? I hope they’ll keep it.

    I’m more worried about what they’re going to do for Tyrion’s face from his battle axe to the nose.

  555. Knurk
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Awesome episode, haven’t read any of the comments yet but here’s my theory for Jon’s storyline.

    We all know Qhorin Halfhand is a fucking badass warrior and genius. He knows Jon won’t kill Ygritte, he ditches Jon deliberately knowing Jon is such a doofus (remember the talk between them last episode?) he’ll probably let Ygritte take him to another wildling camp. How this will result in a Qhorin/Jon fight remains to be seen, but I can’t see it turn out in another way.

  556. Vee
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Kalasin: he doesn’t have that as evidence of his waivering loyalties when he has to convince the wildlings that he is coming over to their side. So he’s going to have to sleep with her right off the bat to prove to her (and them) that he’s turned. At the end of this season. That seems to flow from all of the heavy banter this episode. After Qhorin tells him to go undercover, of course! (still can’t live with that being cut)

    I think we’re definitely heading that direction (re: there’s no way Jon gets out of Season 2 with his virginity intact). Also, I can’t see the show passing up the opportunity to compare/contrast Jon’s situation with Robb’s.

    I’m not sure why so many people are worried that Qhorin’s role in all of this is in jeopardy. As I said in the Episode 16 recap thread, I think how it’s set up now adds weight to Qhorin’s final order. And I do sincerely believe it will be an order. They’ve just taken a different route to get to that moment.

    And I’ll be very surprised if we don’t see Jon warg at some point in the next three episodes. I’m wondering if they’ll reinforce it with Bran a bit more before revealing that this is not just specific to Bran, so they have the surprise factor? I did find Ygritte’s expression interesting when Jon got in her face with his righteous “My father was Ned Stark, blood of the first men, etc.” mini-speech. And as of right now, neither Ygritte nor the other Wildlings know about Ghost, right? Wonder if the direwolf will be re-entering the picture in a dramatic fashion.

  557. Brienne
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Alfie Allen is impressing me as well. Honestly, Theon is my least favorite character in the books. He seems wormy and one-note. But I really get the constant outsider vibe from Alfie, the constant yearning to impress and belong.

  558. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    PatD: I’m missing something about why D&D had Jaime kill Alton, as far as an intelligent plot line goes.

    If you watch the Behind the Scenes thing for the episode, one of the D’s says that they wanted to show that Jaime is a monster who likes to kill (which ties back to Sandor telling Sansa that anyone who claims otherwise – that they kill because they have to and don’t like it – is lying.) That doesn’t jive with my view of Jaime – monster, yes; kills because he likes it, no. *shrugs* Their show, their interpretation, I guess.

  559. KG
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Suffice to say that every woman is different. The amount shown was not outside the boundary of reality.

  560. Direhound
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    It’s interesting how the fandom expectations evolve from the casting, promos, etc… to the actual season. I remember everybody being in an uproar about how D and D were making this the “romance” season. Does anyone still get that vibe? It’s such a minor part of the season so far. I feel like HBO’s promo dept is responsible for a lot of the misgivings about the show. When you sit back and watch the season it’s never as bad as we imagine it will be. I feel like joining the BwP but I just can’t. It’s like seeing all this footage and promos for Prometheus might taint how I actually feel about the film.

    I am really in awe at the community at large and don’t know if any other current show on the air gets this much attention and analysis online inspiring thousands of comments, forums, websites and speculation.

    I think the comment about Sandor’s voice being different might have been misplaced and meant for The Mountain. Whyte’s voice definitely felt deeper and more menacing and judging by his natural voice from interviews I wonder if they enhanced it.

  561. Flower
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany,

    I’m beginning to wonder, given the quick editing in the “previously on” segment, when they replayed Cercei whining to Tyrion when Myrcella was being shipped off that she someday hopes that he loves someone so much that she can rip her from him like he had taken Myrcella away from her, and then flashed to Shae, if they aren’t merging the character of Shae in the TV series with Tysha in the books. Not that the HBO editors necessarily know the direction of the story though, so that might be an idle thought.

  562. Lex
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    On my re-watch, I realized my favourite line of the episode:

    “I went to Willem Frey’s wedding?!?”

    I LOL’d so hard at Jaime’s face. XD

  563. charliesooner
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:34 am | Permalink

    I can’t take it anymore. I’ve read hundreds of posts and haven’t seen one which agrees with my understanding of Alton’s killing. Forgive me if some more recent post makes the following point which seems obvious to me: Jaime’s Target was not Alton and he didn’t appear to make a serious attempt at escape. He knew who his guard was and knew that the death of Karstark’s son would create conflict between Catlyn and Karstark. He knows Catlyn has to protect him in order to protect her daughter. I thought it was brilliant and I am reading over and over again that it was senseless and cruel. Maybe it’s a good thing I didn’t read the books. If he had really tried to escape, I would think we would have seen more details of his flight. I think we can logically reject the escape theory, but no one has unless they did it after I couldn’t stand to read anymore.

  564. Frost Nocturne
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    MetalgoddessAMB,

    You’re not alone. Rose Leslie is a perfect Ygritte, but three scenes of the same annoying banter was a bit much. I grinned when Jon started drawing Longclaw and got her to back off. Granted, I found the character somewhat annoying in the books at first too.

    I don’t mind that they want to establish Ygritte as a major character, but I really wish they would concentrate on giving the Halfhand more screen time to build his relationship with Jon, instead of Ygritte who they have the entire next season to explore. If they don’t give Qhorin more material, his death scene (which I’m confident will happen mostly unchanged, even if we arrive there a different way) isn’t going to have the same impact.

    Qhorin is supposed to be this legend among the NW, but thus far the series has only shown us that he lets a man under him get separated and botch an execution without explaining why (which they still have time to fix), and by what people are speculating from the preview, getting captured himself next ep. Personally, I hope that Ghost helps Jon and Qhorin escape, Qhorin has his talk with Jon, the Wildlings catch up, and the scene continues as in the book. I really hope they keep the “chase” scene similar to the book for Stonesnake and the other rangers, where they get picked off one by one to either give Qhorin more time, or to ride ahead to try and warn Mormont at the fist. So far I’ve had no problems with the changes this season with the exception of Jon’s storyline, so I’m hoping it improves.

  565. LockeLamora
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    charliesooner,

    Jaime lannister is not a person who thinks things through, he acts on impuls, you give him way more credit here than he deserves imo.

    edit. I just read in an article that GoT is the most pirated show of the year, it says : ˝Episodes of the show have been downloaded over 25 million times from public torrent trackers since the series’ second season began in April. The peak downloads occurred after the April 30 episode with more than 2.5 million downloads in a single day˝. Not that it´s relevant for HBO but it says something about the popularity of the show worldwide.

  566. purplejilly
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    charliesooner,
    I would say this is a very strong theory, and quite a clever twist, too.

  567. purplejilly
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Rabbitstew: Hope House of the Undying is next week…

    I am so hoping for an unscheduled Harry Lloyd cameo as Rhaegar – they might have needed to pad his outfit, since Harry Lloyd is so slender and Rhaegar was supposed to be a good fighter, but still, those are my dreams for the HoTU next week!

  568. Ser Lemon Cakes
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    wasn’t Sansa’s nightmare not exactly like what happened? The main would be rapist not hold a knife during the attack? So an example of how people miss remember things in times of stress. serves as a subtle bit of foreshadowing?

  569. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    darquemode: Yellow Dog, Likewise.I do enjoy disliking him though unlike some characters I just dislike and dread reading about.I had a thought during my last re-read of the books. Wouldn’t it be just like the cripple, bastard and broken loving GRRM to make Theon The Prince who Was Proomised or Azor Ahai? He has literally been reborn both in salt (baptism that made him a true Ironborn) and smoke (Winterfell’s sacking results in him being reborn as Reek). Although he does not fall into the ancestral line of Aerys and Rhealla like the wood witch foresaw.

    aaaacccccckkkkkk! Gag! You just ruined my breakfast. :-) Holy baloney, that one’s going to haunt my dreams.

  570. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    charliesooner: Jaime’s Target was not Alton and he didn’t appear to make a serious attempt at escape. He knew who his guard was and knew that the death of Karstark’s son would create conflict between Catlyn and Karstark. He knows Catlyn has to protect him in order to protect her daughter.

    Except that’s so totally not Jaime – he doesn’t think or plan one step ahead, let alone three steps ahead to the conflict he’ll cause between the Starks and Karstarks by killing Karstark’s son. And even if I were to buy this theory, it still doesn’t explain why he had to beat Alton to death – he needed to kill Karstark’s son not his own admiring cousin.

    Honestly, after I watched the “Inside the Episode” segment, I think he beats Alton to death because in David Benioff’s view, Jaime is a monster who loves to kill people. In my view, Jaime is a monster who loves to fight with an equal chance of getting killed himself, which is a subtle but real difference.

  571. freoduwebbe
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Here’s my take on Tywin Arya – Tywin was intrigued by the girl traveling like a boy – so he made her his cupbearer. Once she was there, he figured out she was a northener but not who. His having her eat shows him her table manners – she knows how highborns use their forks etc – I know in medieval times knives were common, forks were upper class. Bet that double knife thingy is highborn only
    He has NO reason to suspect she’s Arya… after all Cersie and Tyrion have the Stark girls in hand- at least as far as he knows. Little finger didnt tell him if he did recognize her. But this is an intriquing thing – and I bet he’s a bit bored… something to do. Is she a Glover, a Manderly – whatever house could she be. Certainly not a mason’s daughter.

    I cannot wait until he finds out that Arya is NOT in Kings Landing - but I expect she’s no longer there when he does. He is gonna be pissed

    oh, on a side note, my favorite line was ‘an artist – who only paints in red’

  572. Salty Sea Dog
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    With the Jon Snow storyline, if they do still have him kill the half-hand, they are going to have to work extra hard to convince us that Jon Snow is not a turn-cloak. The half-hand in the books clearly knew what would be in store, and prepared Jon for what needed to be done, “is your sword sharp?” That fight and the time leading up to it was probably my favorite part of aCoK. I hope the can translate the essence of it to the screen.

  573. Salty Sea Dog
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    oh yeah, and Tywin is too damn likeable.

  574. Gregory Kelton
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Ed:
    LOL!! Well, since you just posted it without the Spoiler Tags it’s kind of a moot point.

    @WIC: Quote option also needs to quote spoiler tags. :embarass:

  575. SLIM
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    I think with the number of comments on the matter, a lot of readers feel that ‘BookJamie’ does not jive with ‘HBOJamie’. I really wish they had done this differently. The Alton killing was a bad decision.

  576. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Knurk,

    I like this idea. Know she won’t talk and knowing Jon won’t kill her, Qhorin might be using Ygritte and Jon to lead the rest of the Crows to Mance Rayder (whose assassination is the goal of their small raiding party.) He knows tracking Ygritte by herself would be difficult but if she had Jon in tow or vice verse they can take him right to where he wants to go.

  577. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    charliesooner: I can’t take it anymore. I’ve read hundreds of posts and haven’t seen one which agrees with my understanding of Alton’s killing. Forgive me if some more recent post makes the following point which seems obvious to me: Jaime’s Target was not Alton and he didn’t appear to make a serious attempt at escape. He knew who his guard was and knew that the death of Karstark’s son would create conflict between Catlyn and Karstark. He knows Catlyn has to protect him in order to protect her daughter. I thought it was brilliant and I am reading over and over again that it was senseless and cruel. Maybe it’s a good thing I didn’t read the books. If he had really tried to escape, I would think we would have seen more details of his flight. I think we can logically reject the escape theory, but no one has unless they did it after I couldn’t stand to read anymore.

    I rejected it. But I would agree with Gonfaloniere that Jaime wouldn’t think that far ahead. He simply wanted out of being a hostage again. He really didn’t care if he escaped or died in my view.

    Gonfaloniere: And even if I were to buy this theory, it still doesn’t explain why he had to beat Alton to death – he needed to kill Karstark’s son not his own admiring cousin.
    Honestly, after I watched the “Inside the Episode” segment, I think he beats Alton to death because in David Benioff’s view, Jaime is a monster who loves to kill people. In my view, Jaime is a monster who loves to fight with an equal chance of getting killed himself, which is a subtle but real difference.

    Jaime goes for the simple solution at this stage of the character.

    How do I get guard into the pen where I can attack the guard? Kill the other prisoner and use the distraction to strangle the guard.

    Done. Jaime doesn’t think through the plan the way Tyrion would and look for a way to avoid killing his cousin. Post golden hand Jaime would. It forces Jaime to look past the simple solution because that option isn’t as reliable to him anymore. That’s how we see the character grow and develop into a fan favorite.

    But I totally agree with you that Jaime isn’t just about killing people. He loves the battlefield. He is thrilled by the sport of the contest. Not easy victories.

  578. Mediterraneo
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    What Jaime did this episode is a main “jump the shark” moment for me. There will be more good things in this series, but this is a turning point for me.
    Given the number of “right” choices and descriptions the tv crew took, it is a shock to see such a catastrophic failure in the treatment of one of the key characters.
    I have other griveances (the Qarth plot being so overexposed and gangsta for example) but this one is paramount, betrays the spirit of the story.
    This series will have a lot of good things in it, it is going to be funny to view.
    But it is ruined by this mistake: we will have a villain turning good instead of a prejudice of ours turned on us when we get to know Jaime better. And the technique used to make this smart change in the plot is having the “villain” to kick a pup in front of the camera, like in the b quality shows.
    The worst about it is that Jaime’s plan in the show has a “little” flaw. If the Karstark boy did not enter his cell but called for help as he should have done, Jaime’s attempt would have been still shorter. And how convenient that the Karstark brought with him the chains’ keys, too. Why didn’t he put a red carpet leading to the jail’s exit while on it?
    That is: a drastical reversion of one of the core characters that drives away the story from one of its central messages is written in an action scene in which the most dangerous knight in the setting devises a plan that can work only thanks to the red-shirts famous stupidity.
    I understand that the books and the TV show are two very different beasts, but I hoped that two different beasts could both be clever and beautiful, and two different medias could be used to tell the same story.
    I’m so sorry about that.
    BTW: I’m still going to see the show. It will still have nice things in it. I’ll no more actively try to sell it to my friends, though. And I will not buy the DVDs, and tell my friends why, so they won’t gift it to me on my birthday.

  579. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    I agree.
    I don’t think Jaime likes to kill exactly. I think he likes to defeat people in combat and prove his worth to himself. It just so happens that defeating someone in combat generally leads to death.

  580. Fran
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    And again a really bad episode because of the directing and script.

    The worst: The change in Jaime from the books. Now in the show, we know he’s able to do anything, has no honor and is basically evil, killing his own cousin after sharing that story with him.. omg D&D just keep ruining George’s work.
    And this change from the books is going to give a lot of trouble afterwards because now SPOILER no one will believe when he actually turns good!! Or are the D&D also going to change that (the whole jaime storyline ) form the books??

    Man, with the resources D&D have,even I could make an episode so much better than this shit.

    Every scene could be improved a LOT with just a few changes… (i.e. in Arya- Tywin scene, Arya could exit the room whispering all the names, while on the background we see Tywin staring at her back of the neck. The take would be facing Arya as she approaches the camera… So easy and simple and it’d give the audience chills)

    And let’s admit it, the actors are great (most of them), so what makes this TV show sucks so much is D&D.

    Those of you who can’t see this is not a good TV Show and that it doesn’t do the book justice are just blind.

  581. Fran
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Mediterraneo,

    Didn’t read your post before posting mine but I totally agree with you about Jaime (as you can see in my previous post).

    Also, I’ll keep watching the TV show, but will no longer say to other people to watch it or like it, because it really doesn’t deserve it.

  582. Sekandar Martell
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    As much as I liked the scene, I feel it would have been much more prudent for the show to just not show Bran and co in the woods at all. If you cut out that scene it would place a LOT more doubt on whether the Stark kids survived. Even if you left all the rest the same. As it stands it makes very little sense, why does Theon give up so easily? How on earth do the Stark kids evade the hunting party?

    I loved having NCW back on the show, and he absolutely nailed all his scenes (“so many vows”). I simply cannot get my head around the decision to have him kill Alton though. Yes, we know he is far from a saint, but again it feels unnecessary (he could have told Alton to play dead and had a better chance to escape if nothing else…) but it’s just too viscous in my mind. Cersei only gets more likeable, whilst the twin who we are eventually given many reasons to like is made to appear monstrous?

    I suspect they can pull it around, but yeah definitely felt a bit let down by it. Also, they had better have Luwin telling Theon to go to the wall.

  583. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    charliesooner,

    I really like that idea, but I’m not sure it fits with Jaime’s character. He just is not a long game planner…

    However, I think that there is an element of the truth in it. I think that he is at a point he wants to something – ANYTHING.
    - If he escapes, great.
    - If he gets killed, okay.
    - If he causes a fracture between Catelyn and Robb’s men, he will enjoy watching the chaos.

    I think his main objective was to escape, but he just does not see the big picture and how implausible it was to get out of his pen and manage to evade the bulk of Robb’s army. I think his impulse was something like “I need to get out of this cell first and then I will deal with the next step.”

  584. Shinyteapot
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Thought this was a very good episode. I wonder if there is still another twist to come in Qarth? Pyat Pree is clearly capable of killing Xaro (and taking that vault key) any time he likes. It’s possible Xaro has now served his purpose. Or maybe he’s being kept around so that the warlocks can quietly be the power behind the throne, while any potential assassins go for Xaro.

    Loving Arya’s scenes with Tywin, one of the best changes made. I’m not surprised Tywin thinks the dart was meant for him (and had Arya test his food). It’s fun to guess just what Tywin thinks. I do hope the third death plays out pretty much as in the books though.

    Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa and Sandor were all great, and Shae is much more likeable when she’s not with Tyrion. Missing Varys and Bronn though! It’s interesting that Cersei and Jaime have both admitted the incest, albeit to people who already were pretty sure the rumours were true. Cersei has a permanent glass of wine and is pushing everyone away (can’t stand the handmaidens).

    I thought Jaime’s escape was well done, and I love that he’s now broken his nose! Look at the blood on his nose when he’s in the cage after being caught. I’m not sure why he felt the need to kill Alton rather than just beat him up and tell him to play dead, maybe didn’t want the potential liability of Alton coming along? Their conversation was very well done- and the mention of Barristan makes me think that was a deliberate reminder for the audience, maybe we’ll see Arstan soon? Catelyn continues to be quietly amazing, and Brienne is superb. Her story has the potential to come off much better on screen than in the books I think.

    The changes to Jon’s story are interesting, I like Ygritte’s quick explanation of the wildling view of the world. She’s merciless in her teasing, and her key line was very well delivered. I hope his story ends as in the books though- but since we haven’t seen the other men of the night’s watch since Jon left them, I’m starting to think we won’t see a certain event from the start of ASOS brought forward as had been theorised- which is a shame, it would make a great cliffhanger. But I think the obsidian needs to be found first?

    I thought it rather sad that Bran and Rickon’s fairly random trek led to the farm, since it means they led Theon there- albeit not deliberately. Bran was being so considerate of what would happen to other people, it seems a shame, though it does make sense. I note that the boys were given names (Jack and Billy I think) and Rickon clearly knew them- which makes Theon’s actions even more sad to the audience- they’re not just random offscreen boys (though it’s as reprehensible either way).

    Theon is absolutely perfect, Allen deserves all manner of accolades for his performance. I wonder if playing someone so unlikeable makes him less likely to win awards though? The acting is brilliant- but no-one wants Theon to win anything (likewise Joffrey) because he’s such an arsehole. Are horrible characters less likely to win awards for the actors who play them than audience favourites like Tyrion?

  585. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Fran,

    I must be pure evil then. XD
    My first thought when Alton was put in Jaime’s pen was Jaime would attack Alton to distract the guards. I would have..

  586. The Sweetling
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Craig Leska,
    I was thinking the same thing!!

  587. KG
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Lala,

    Jon is an idiot; he’s every bit as big a fuckup as Theon. But that’s ok – there’s always room for growth, right?

  588. Salty Sea Dog
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    I have a question for the site admins/moderators and didnt know where else to post it (those who have not yet read a Storm of Swords, DO NOT read on): SPOILER: aren’t the curtain calls a spoiler in a way? (i’m specifically thinking of Catelyn.)

  589. KG
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    House Farwynd,

    I think you’ve been watching too many Hong Kong action flicks where a guy swings his sword and ten henchman fly away, dead.

    HiiiiiiYAAAAH!

  590. Shinyteapot
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Jon is far out of his depth- he’s young and in a world he has no idea how to handle. And Ygritte was right- he’s dull and he knows nothing. But he hasn’t yet resorted to child murder. Jon has room to improve, Theon is a different matter.

  591. KG
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Fran,

    Righto then. The door is over there —>
    Ta-ta.

  592. McKee
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Well, I suppose I’d better chime in on the Jaime Lannister controversy.

    I think I’m comfortable assuming that to kill Alton was his first and only primary goal. What does this accomplish?

    The diplomatic emmisary that Robb has been using is now dead. In Robb’s camp, no less, and after delivering a firm rebuff from King’s Landing. This makes Robb look very bad, since Alton was under his protection. Sure, Robb might sing the Lannisters a song about how Jaime killed Alton in the pen they shared, but I frankly doubt that such a story would be believed.

    Killing the Karstark guard was an added bonus, one that Jaime eagerly availed himself of.

    Even setting that aside, its clear that, even as a prisoner, Jaime will take any action, however repugnant, that might cause havoc and discord behind enemy lines.

    Yes, Jaime is the sort of man that might choose death over imprisonment, but neither is he the sort to surrender in the face of adversity. Instead, he manages to shorten his tenure as prisoner even while giving Robb a terrific headache.

    That’s my take on it.

  593. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Jon is ignorant but not stupid. I think he will learn at least one valuable lesson this season.

  594. Drew
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Only thing that bugged me this episode is Summer… why the hell has she/he gone from the most beautiful brown/autumn colour to GREY??!?!? what the hell lol

    EDIT:

    Scrap that… ive just rewatched episode 3 and 7 and realised summer is white/ginger crisis averted

  595. Pedro Stark
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    You will see. I guess you haven;t read the books. You’ll hav eto wait and see :-). In GRRM’s world NOONE is safe.

  596. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    McKee,

    I look at it slightly differently. I think the mistake is to place ANY prisoner with the Kingslayer. Especially any prisoner that might carry news to him. A far better plan would have been to chain Alton to a post under guard until his pen was ready.

    That being said, I think Alton’s murder was not a planned event in the beginning of the conversation. I think he killed Alton moments after the thought occurred to him. The thought wasn’t firm in his mind until after the Squire talk. I think he hit him the first time to knock him out and the following time to keep him from getting away. The remaining blows I can find no explanation for this other than the possibility that once he started he simply couldn’t stop. I think it could have been handled with a remorseful look on Jaimie’s face as he huddled down as he waited to ambush Torrhen.

    I also LOVED the scene with Cat where he says “They make you swear and swear…”. When he talked about Ned’s bastard, it also makes me want to believe wholeheartedly in R+L=J.

  597. Michel
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    Hey, for you who are complaining about the series..read the synopsys of “Valar Morghulis”, season finale:

    OBS: This is my first comment in WiW, sorry for my english, im brazilian, please comment.

    20 10 “Valar Morghulis”[1] Alan Taylor David Benioff & D. B. Weiss June 3, 2012[1]
    Tyrion awakens to a changed situation. King Joffrey doles out rewards to his subjects. As Theon stirs his men to action, Luwin offers some final advice. Brienne silences Jaime; Arya receives a gift from Jaqen; Dany goes to a strange place; Jon proves himself to Qhorin.

    For me this prove that Reek will show up for show, because, who will Theon battle if it’s not Ramsay ? But idk if he will show up just like Jaqen on Season 1 or they didnt tell they hired an actor for him. And Jon will fight againt Qhorin, i just dont know how they will encounter, but Qhorin appears in promo of 2×08. My guess is Qhorin will be captured and they will try to escape and Qhorin tell him his mission if it failed. And about Dany, i think Dany will only go to the House of Undying on Season Finale, LOL, so i guess Barrystan and Belwas only in season 3. I didnt understand what about Brienne silences Jaime ? If they cut the Brave Companions and Brienne take off Jaime hand I will be SO piss of.

  598. Ed
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    Gregory Kelton: @WIC: Quote option also needs to quote spoiler tags.:embarass:

    Agreed.

    I think we’d better off with an actual message board, to be honest.

  599. Stacia
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    freoduwebbe, I agree about Tywin and Arya.

    If Tywin suspected she truly was Arya Stark – the key to getting Jaime back, he wouldn’t let her be wandering around the castle able to escape. He’s testing her, trying to confirm his suspicions, but only as a curiosity and to see if there might be more to her story.

    The way Arya acts that doesn’t completely fit with a high-born girl. If Myrcella or Sansa were in Arya’s situation, they wouldn’t be able to do what Arya has. Arya is more like a former inside cat who’s been a stray for years but still remembers her inside manners, not a stereotypical scared high-born girl just taken from King’s Landing.

    Rather than thinking that Arya is Arya, Tywin might suspect she now homeless due to some division in a lower noble family, whether that might suggest there is some conflicts with Robb’s bannermen. Or if she might be a bastard of Ned Stark’s who was cast out when he wasn’t going to be paying for her upkeep.

    First and foremost in his mind is the war against Robb. If he can use his cupbearer for intelligence or research about the Northerners, then it helps their cause. If he thought she was Arya Stark for a second, he wouldn’t be doing what he’s doing.

  600. KG
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Shinyteapot:
    KG,

    Jon is far out of his depth- he’s young and in a world he has no idea how to handle.And Ygritte was right- he’s dull and he knows nothing.But he hasn’t yet resorted to child murder.Jon has room to improve, Theon is a different matter.

    Regardless of the reasons, he is – socially speaking – in the same boat as Theon. His inflated ideas of his abilities and worth keep running facefirst into reality.

    He pitches a boo-hoo about being a steward and SAM tells him he’s being a pansy. He shoots his mouth off at Craster’s and gets his ass kicked …

  601. Sword of the Morning
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    T-Good: T-Good
    Posted May 13, 2012 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Something interesting not yet mentioned, Tywin seemed to suggest that arya is posing as a commoner when she is actually a higher born girl. Thoughts?

    Not sure where they’re going with it

    Does anyone think Tywin knows/suspects Arya is actually Arya Stark? I can’t decide if he knows/suspects/or thinks she’s just some high(er)-born random girl. I’m leaning toward the latter because I don’t think Tywin knows that Cersei doesn’t have both girls. Tyrion didn’t know before he arrived in King’s Landing, and Cersei and Tyrion wouldn’t tell him in order to avoid his wrath. And Littlefinger didn’t seem to tell him, he just mentioned that Lady Stark is obviously interested in brokering a deal for both daughters.

    Regardless, I can’t wait to see where they take this. Arya’s “Dance” with Tywin is distressing but unbelievably captivating. I thought Arya was going to blow her cover and say that she was nothing like Cersei when Tywin told her she reminded him of his daughter. Way to play it cool, Arya!

  602. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Sword of the Morning: Does anyone think Tywin knows/suspects Arya is actually Arya Stark?I can’t decide if he knows/suspects/or thinks she’s just some high(er)-born random girl.I’m leaning toward the latter because I don’t think Tywin knows that Cersei doesn’t have both girls.Tyrion didn’t know before he arrived in King’s Landing, and Cersei and Tyrion wouldn’t tell him in order to avoid his wrath.And Littlefinger didn’t seem to tell him, he just mentioned that Lady Stark is obviously interested in brokering a deal for both daughters.

    Regardless, I can’t wait to see where they take this.Arya’s “Dance” with Tywin is distressing but unbelievably captivating.I thought Arya was going to blow her cover and say that she was nothing like Cersei when Tywin told her she reminded him of his daughter.Way to play it cool, Arya!

    This version is so much better then spending a season watching Arya make faces at Weese when his back was turned. I do wish they had kept the Holdfast and what happened there (HOT PIE!) and on the way to Harrenhal intact. My man Yoren was smarter than that and it would have made the Tickler’s death better even if they decided not to have Arya do it at the crossroads. “IS THERE GOLD IN THE VILLAGE? SILVER? GEMS? WHERE IS LORD BERIC?”

    I also don’t believe that Tywin knows she is Arya. Right now she is an amusing puzzle whose neck he believes he could snap if he felt like it. I do like the idea that he is concerned enough about poison to have her taste the food though. It seems plausible.

  603. Knurk
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    I’m also starting to think that D&D maybe want the audience to think Jon is a turncloak at the end of the season, and then we find out he is not a turncloak will be the end of his storyline in season 3. It could work, very curious what the writers have in store for this storyline.

  604. LordStarkington
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Drew:
    Only thing that bugged me this episode is Summer… why the hell has she/he gone from the most beautiful brown/autumn colour to GREY??!?!? what the hell lol

    EDIT:

    Scrap that… ive just rewatched episode 3 and 7 and realised summer is white/ginger crisis averted

    Even if he wasn’t, could you blame him for premature graying when he’s been forced to witness Theon Greyjoy first hand?

  605. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me: I think Alton’s murder was not a planned event in the beginning of the conversation. I think he killed Alton moments after the thought occurred to him.

    According to David Benioff, Jaime was planning to kill Alton from the moment the boy was put into his cell, so everything he says and does in that scene is with the end of murdering this kid.

  606. Drew
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    point taken

  607. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: According to David Benioff, Jaime was planning to kill Alton from the moment the boy was put into his cell, so everything he says and does in that scene is with the end of murdering this kid.

    If that is the case, it just proves that David didn’t explain his vision adequately to NCW. Based only on NCW’s onscreen performance, they were far too subtle about it if that was David’s direction for the character. They provided no visual or auditory cues to Jaimie’s intent. We know they are none to subtle elsewhere, just look how long the back of Tywin’s neck stayed on camera as Arya fingered her knife in the same episode.

  608. DavidBc
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Sedai: Wait, I have an even better theory. Theon himself is Ramsay! Think about it. Roose was smart enough to have him pose as Balon’s son to get taken in by the Starks and get 9 years of scouting information on Winterfell so he could capture it in the present day. Roose is a genius!

    Get a new joke dude… Are we not allowed to speculate about potential directions the show might take without people trying to be witty? Save your snark for when you talk to your friends…atleast then you’ll be able to see them rolling their eyes.

  609. McKee
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    If you would for a moment, put aside the entire question of whether or not Jaime’s murder or Alton was premeditated.

    It is plain to see that Jaime’s act causes nothing but trouble for Robb Stark and his camp, for his morale and unity of purpose.

    And there’s your motive.

    Edit: I’d further like to add that Jaime is pulling a “Kaiser Soze”, to baffle and overpower those who would pretend to imprison and control him.

  610. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    McKee:
    If you would for a moment, put aside the entire question of whether or not Jaime’s murder or Alton was premeditated.

    It is plain to see that Jaime’s act causes nothing but trouble for Robb Stark and his camp, for his morale and unity of purpose.

    And there’s your motive.

    Edit: I’d further like to add that Jaime is pulling a “Kaiser Soze”, to baffle and overpower those who would pretend to imprison and control him.

    Oh it was premeditated. We just can’t agree on when he decided to do it.

  611. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me: They provided no visual or auditory cues to Jaimie’s intent. We know they are none to subtle elsewhere, just look how long the back of Tywin’s neck stayed on camera as Arya fingered her knife in the same episode.

    And yet everyone overlooks the fact that Tywin himself put the knife into her hand before walking to the window and turning his back to her.

    On Jaime, take a look at his after Alton talks about it being the best day of his life. It looks like regret to me.

  612. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Michel: 20 10 “Valar Morghulis”[1] Alan Taylor David Benioff & D. B. Weiss June 3, 2012[1]
    Tyrion awakens to a changed situation. King Joffrey doles out rewards to his subjects. As Theon stirs his men to action, Luwin offers some final advice. Brienne silences Jaime; Arya receives a gift from Jaqen; Dany goes to a strange place; Jon proves himself to Qhorin.
    For me this prove that Reek will show up for show, because, who will Theon battle if it’s not Ramsay ? But idk if he will show up just like Jaqen on Season 1 or they didnt tell they hired an actor for him. And Jon will fight againt Qhorin, i just dont know how they will encounter, but Qhorin appears in promo of 2×08. My guess is Qhorin will be captured and they will try to escape and Qhorin tell him his mission if it failed. And about Dany, i think Dany will only go to the House of Undying on Season Finale, LOL, so i guess Barrystan and Belwas only in season 3. I didnt understand what about Brienne silences Jaime ? If they cut the Brave Companions and Brienne take off Jaime hand I will be SO piss of.

    Your English is fine! I think you’re right about everything except how Brienne silences Jaime – I’m quite sure that refers to Brienne nearly defeating him in their sword fight and making him stop calling her “wench.” It’s possible they will compress events so that Vargo Hoat takes off Jaime’s hand in the finale rather than next season, but highly unlikely. And Brienne doing it would completely destroy their storyline. I will be not only also pissed off, but shocked, if that happens.

  613. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    To mean that communicated Tywin’s confidence that Arya wasn’t much of a threat. It also told me it might have been yet another test on his part to determine who Arya really is.

  614. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    Yes, but he was also testing her that way as well, not just to see if she would use poison.

  615. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Yes. I recall the look. Shortly afterward the tone of his voice changed also. Then when Alton alluded to escape the decision seemed made. But then right before Jaimie whispers in his ear I was certain Alton would be attacked. It was the multiple strikes and Alton’s likely death that surprised me. (Dude might still be alive. Who knows? Even at best though, he won’t be winning any games of stones with Hodor)

  616. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    Other than a bit in Jaime’s dialog…
    Jaime saying he bets Ned was a perfect prisoner, but “Not me though. My life has left me uniquely unfit for constraint” a moment before he killed Alton. That was D&D letting the viewer know something was about to happen since Jaime is not a model prisoner.

    Also when he complemented Alton about why he was a good squire and said, ” You knew when you were needed and when to go away.” Something about the way he said that line cemented in my mind he was going to kill Alton. Not sure why honestly, but that was the point I was positive Alton was going to die even though the thought first occurred to me when Robb told Karstark to put Alton in with Jaime.

    Both are subtle at best at more probably like reaching in hindsight for justification.

  617. Tre
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Jamie does not care for his own life no more or so we are made to think, “He is a man without Honor”. By killing Alton and more, the Karstark guard he knows that Robbs soldiers will be of two minds about keeping him alive (causing dissention)among the King of the Norths men. He also knows or believes the two Stark girls are still at Kings Landing and him being held for an exchange will mean he is spared death ( if his escape does not go to plan).

    Great episode and I liked the way Tywin used Ayra as a food tester incase his meal was poisioned.!!!!!

  618. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Interesting Game of Thrones casting notice:
    https://www.extrasni.com/news

    We require people of all ages & all shapes & sizes, but this year we specifically need:
    MALES:
    - with short length hair of every colour
    - with shoulder length hair of every colour
    - all hair lengths with and without good beards
    - with short blonde hair
    - with long dark hair & beards
    - sporty, strong & fit types
    - any male amputeesWe’re always interested in men:
    - with special skills: archery, combat-skills, martial arts, military experience, rowers & sailors
    - in smaller numbers we generally require: farmers, butchers, carpenters, iron workers, blacksmiths, weavers, medieval musicians

    FEMALES:
    - With long natural undyed hair
    And men or women that are over 18 and that are under 5ft in height.

    Women over 18, but under 5-feet? Meera Reed?

  619. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    I know this would be CONTROVERSIAL (!!!) but I’d kinda dig if Catelyn was the one cutting Jaime’s hand off. I know it would be a big change, but I kinda feel that this woman needs some sort of payback, since her life is falling apart. I guess Michelle Fairley really won me over.

  620. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me: If that is the case, it just proves that David didn’t explain his vision adequately to NCW. Based only on NCW’s onscreen performance, they were far too subtle about it if that was David’s direction for the character. They provided no visual or auditory cues to Jaimie’s intent. We know they are none to subtle elsewhere, just look how long the back of Tywin’s neck stayed on camera as Arya fingered her knife in the same episode.

    “The moment they put Alton into that pen with him, Jaime knows exactly what he’s going to do…” (That’s at 2:30 or thereabouts of the Inside the Episode segment.

    I agree that subtlety isn’t the strong suit of the writers but it does seem that it was their intent to show Jaime coldly plotting Alton’s murder and using his charm (and lies) to disarm the kid. If that isn’t a sociopath, I don’t know what is.

  621. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    McKee:
    Edit: I’d further like to add that Jaime is pulling a “Kaiser Soze”, to baffle and overpower those who would pretend to imprison and control him.

    I think you are confusing Jaime with his brother or his father. Jaime is neither intelligent, nor cunning, nor patient enough to pull off a long con like that.

  622. the goat
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Also, did you see Roose looking slightly unimpressed with her and Robb’s developing relationship?

    Yeah, Roose continued the recent tradition of awesome side-eyeing this week
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m401gtJjkq1rnpb7vo1_500.gif

  623. Remaal
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    darquemode:
    Interesting Game of Thrones casting notice:
    https://www.extrasni.com/news

    And men or women that are over 18 and that are under 5ft in height.

    Women over 18, but under 5-feet? Meera Reed?

    This sight is for extras only. Over 18 and under 5ft tall is probably for the 200 slave children crucified by Meereen on the road from Yunkai, in defiance to Dany.

  624. Ed
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    No! Don’t you remember, that’s exactly how the chapter ended!

    Page 896: “Give me your sword,” Catelyn held out her hand.

    You guys crack me up. You’re seeing stuff that’s just not there. I’ve seen some people get mad about scenes (Cersei crying) that hey claim D&D made up. No, it’s in the books!

    Dogmayor:
    Anyone else worried about the fact that Catelyn asked for Brienne’s sword at the end of her conversation with Jaime? I hope she doesn’t cut his hand off.

  625. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Remaal,

    Of course you’re probably right.

    I was just trying to give some hope for the Reed fans out there. XD

  626. darquemode
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    I thought the chapter ended that way too, but I have not read ACoK in a while so I was not going to comment about it. Thanks for the info!

  627. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    the goat: Yeah, Roose continued the recent tradition of awesome side-eyeing this week
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m401gtJjkq1rnpb7vo1_500.gif

    Roose made it clear several episodes ago that he would prefer the Robb let him torture – specifically, flay – the prisoners of war instead of allocating scarce resources to their medical care (such as it is) plus feeding and housing them.

    He’s probably just offended Robb is prepared to dismiss one of his senior bannermen just so he can chat up this foreign woman who he thinks is filling Robb’s head with progressive ideas.

  628. McKee
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    When Kaiser Soze returned home, he found his family held an gunpoint by his competitors. They made demands of him, that he give up his territory and his power.

    Then Kaiser Soze surprised them all my murdering his own family, right under the noses of their would-be captors.

    It is apparent, then, that the Kaiser would rather see his family dead than for them to be dishonored, for them to see him dishonored, or for them to be used as pawns against him.

    Not only that, but this move shifts power dramatically away from the very ones who thought to have him by the short hairs, so to speak.

    You can see how Jaime’s move is very similar.

  629. The Rabbit
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    No!Don’t you remember, that’s exactly how the chapter ended!

    Page 896:“Give me your sword,” Catelyn held out her hand.

    You guys crack me up.You’re seeing stuff that’s just not there.I’ve seen some people get mad about scenes (Cersei crying) that hey claim D&D made up.No, it’s in the books!

    Thanks Ed. For confirmation what I have been thinking of for two days. Beeing too lazy to take a books and check it by myself.
    Yes, she s gonna release him.

  630. Gregor's mailed fist
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Unrelated but I don’t care…

    Does anyone else think or believe that Jon Snow is not Ned’s bastard at all?….Like, perhaps he’s Lyanna’s and Rhaegars’s?

    Bring it on

  631. KG
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Gregor’s mailed fist,

    Sorry. People have been bringing that on since the book was first published.

  632. Catapiller
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    I really hate how Ghost wasn’t with Jon Snow. I think that undermines his progression as a warg later in the story. Ghost would not have let Jon wander off like that.

  633. the goat
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Yeah, they made it pretty clear that they weren’t too happy about him and that “foreign bitch.” Works out pretty well for Roose, tho.

  634. Lex
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Gregor’s mailed fist,

    Nice theory! Too bad you’re 16 years late…

  635. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Frost Nocturne: Rose Leslie is a perfect Ygritte, but three scenes of the same annoying banter was a bit much.

    Did you notice that as soon as Jon had let slip that he was Ned Stark’s son, she made a point of leading him with the rope for most of the time? The significance of the Stark name would be known to every wildling, as the Wall was built by Bran the Builder (not Bob, obvs ;^).

    Ygritte’s the nearest thing the wildlings have to a ranger. She’s at war with the Night’s Watch and she wielded her feminine whiles and her wits like weapons. She intended to annoy the hell out of Jon because that distracted him, allowing her to lead him into a trap. She even managed to make him momentarily lose his grasp of the rope altogether and escape again, avoiding a hostage situation.

    At this point in the TV show, we cannot assume that Ygritte actually fancies Jon. Perhaps she does, perhaps she just feigned the whole thing.

    Sidebar 1: Sustained arctic cold impairs your cognitive abilities (ref: polar explorer Sir Rannulph Fiennes in a clip from BBC Top Gear’s Race to the Pole). Qhorin mentions that the Night’s Watch will never run out of work because what they’re really fighting is the true North itself, but the show actually downplays just how brutal the environment is.

    Ygritte and the other wildlings all wear fur hoods, the Night’s Watch doesn’t (except for Qhorin). After a night out on an exposed ledge, that would have made a difference. Also note that the wildlings have been stuck beyond the Wall for 8000 years, possibly long enough for natural evolution to have had a small but significant effect on population tolerance for severe cold.

    Sidebar 2: I have a theory on how Ygritte might have known there would be wildling backup at that location.

    Qhorin told us that Mance Rayder’s sentinel teams kept fires burning so they could send/relay smoke/fire signals about approaching dangers, e.g. an approaching Night’s Watch team. That’s why it was important for him to achieve a surprise attack. It’s also why he refused to burn the bodies of the dead wildlings when she asked for that. She repeated the request for herself, adding that she might otherwise come back to haunt Jon. Unlike Qhorin, he knew what she meant because he had killed a wight with fire. This was probably why he decided against killing Ygritte, he recognized that they were fighting the same supernatural enemy, the one the Wall had been built to keep out of Westeros.

    When her sentinel team’s fire went out, Mance sent a reserve team to investigate. They found the corpses (evidence of the Night Watch’s presence), noticed Ygritte wasn’t among them and started tracking her. It would have become evident very quickly that she was with a single male ranger. Between their light grey furs and knowledge of the terrain, it would have been fairly easy for them to remain undetected. They may well have managed to catch up with and make eye contact with Ygritte without Jon ever noticing.

    It’s also possible the trap location was a pre-arranged meet-up point for sentinels that had got lost or into trouble – it’s perfect for an ambush.

  636. Winnie
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    I like your thinking! Thank you for so many good points! Can you expand on one thing for me? (new book reader here) -the significance of the Stark name? Particularly, to the wildlings…. I know it has been explained (briefly) so hopefully this isn’t a stupid inquiry
    I noticed Ygritte’s expression change when Jon stated Ned Stark was his father…..

  637. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    Catapiller:
    I really hate how Ghost wasn’t with Jon Snow. I think that undermines his progression as a warg later in the story. Ghost would not have let Jon wander off like that.

    I feel like a broken record here, as this seems to be my answer to so many criticisms, but…

    Maybe we should let the storyline actually play out and see what’s going on with Ghost, the rangers and the wildlings before leaping to judgment? They did make a point of showing Ghost wandering off, which most likely has some sort of significance.

  638. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: “The moment they put Alton into that pen with him, Jaime knows exactly what he’s going to do…” (That’s at 2:30 or thereabouts of the Inside the Episode segment.

    I agree that subtlety isn’t the strong suit of the writers but it does seem that it was their intent to show Jaime coldly plotting Alton’s murder and using his charm (and lies) to disarm the kid. If that isn’t a sociopath, I don’t know what is.

    Do military Special Forces teams working behind enemy lines consist of sociopaths? Or espionage organizations? What he used there were smart tactics to achieve his ultimate goal, and like the people I mention he used guile and subterfuge, because that’s what works in certain situations. Brutal, yes, but not crazy.

  639. Mike
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    GRRM,

    and two direwolves.

  640. Gregor's mailed fist
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Apologies….stupid theory…damn this party sure died

  641. Ken
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Clob,
    This is my only problem with the changes. Jon and Half Hand battle is so important to Jon’s development.

  642. Langkard
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Ken:
    Clob,
    This is my only problem with the changes.Jon and Half Hand battle is so important to Jon’s development.

    Don’t give up on it yet. I think we might just see that battle next episode.

    As an aside, for those who know and love the satirical “news”paper The Onion, they have pointed their wit at Game of Thrones in a wonderful way. Go read it here:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/game-of-thrones-running-out-of-unkempt-old-men-to,28183/

  643. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Gregor’s mailed fist:
    Apologies….stupid theory…damn this party sure died

    Actually it’s a great theory, their point was just that it’s been around awhile, no worries.

  644. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    charliesooner:
    I can’t take it anymore.I’ve read hundreds of posts and haven’t seen one which agrees with my understanding of Alton’s killing.Forgive me if some more recent post makes the following point which seems obvious to me:Jaime’s Target was not Alton and he didn’t appear to make a serious attempt at escape.He knew who his guard was and knew that the death of Karstark’s son would create conflict between Catlyn and Karstark.He knows Catlyn has to protect him in order to protect her daughter.I thought it was brilliant and I am reading over and over again that it was senseless and cruel.Maybe it’s a good thing I didn’t read the books.If he had really tried to escape, I would think we would have seen more details of his flight.I think we can logically reject the escape theory, but no one has unless they did it after I couldn’t stand to read anymore.

    Now THAT makes sense, combined with my own theory that he was losing his mind sitting there all that time, probably gone over every possibility in his own mind of what might/could happen, who hates who, who wants to do what, and saw the opening that would change his trajectory…it all works together quite well.

  645. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    GRRM:
    So two small kids, a retard, and a wildling are able to elude an entire hunting party through the woods? Really? And Theon was a skilled hunter at that

    Retard, nice.

    The key word in your post is “wildling”, I’d imagine most wildlings have forgotten more than Theon’s ever learned about hunting and tracking. And they did have many hours head start.

    I’m a little disappointed they didn’t stick with the crypts, but part of me always thought it was a little far-fetched that they’d stay down there in complete darkness for days if not weeks.

  646. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Do military Special Forces teams working behind enemy lines consist of sociopaths? Or espionage organizations? What he used there were smart tactics to achieve his ultimate goal, and like the people I mention he used guile and subterfuge, because that’s what works in certain situations. Brutal, yes, but not crazy.

    Do most Special Forces and espionage organizations plot to kill members of their own team who are their natural allies in similar situations?

    I’m not saying that Jaime killing Torrhen Karstark was sociopathic; that was a jailbreak where the prisoner killed his guard. I AM saying that Jaime killing Alton Lannister, his cousin, a fellow prisoner, a member of his own side and his own family for absolutely no compelling reason is definitely the act of a sociopath, especially when we learn that he meant to do it before his conversation with the kid even began. (again, what was the gain from beating Alton to death instead of knocking him out with the chains to lure Torrhen Karstark into the cage?)

    And sociopaths don’t necessarily present as “crazy” – Jaime showed all the glibness and superficial charm that are apparently the attributes of many a serial killer. I suppose you could interpret Jaime as a serial killer (serial defenestrator of small children?) but it’s not really how I see him.

  647. Gatorfisch
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Gay for Cersei: Gay for Cersei

    Yeah, I can’t count. I realized after I posted. :)

  648. darquemode
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    Winnie,

    Bran the Builder, the man reputed to have built The Wall was a Stark, Brandon Stark. Plus Benjen is (or was) the First Ranger for a few years and would be well known to the Wildlings beyond the wall. I guess really the Stark name has been associated with The Wall and the Night’s Watch for thousands of years.

  649. darquemode
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    I’m not sure we can apply modern psychological classifications to anyone on Westeros. XD

    I mean it was a killed or be killed time with region against region and family against family. If you were a good killer on Westeros you had power and a reputation…. sometimes you were feared and other times you were respected for the ability to kill…. sometimes both at the same time.

    Some kill because they enjoy it like Gregor, some kill because they had to like Ned, and others kill because they are good at it like Jaime.

    I think a very stable Jaime would kill just about anyone outside of his imediate family if he thought he or his family gained something from it. On his best days Jaime is not a tactitian or strategist, and prisoner Jaime is not as stable as normal. Seeing a chance to escape, be killed in the process and avoid being used against his family, or just cause Robb and Catelyn problems made it worth it to kill Alton (who is not a member of his family despite having his family name) in his current mental state.

    Seriously, Jaime being dragged and beaten as he was pulled back to his pen was probably the best day Jaime has had in weeks since he was first captured! He got to be proactive for the first time and not just do as others told him. He forced the action and the fact that it made no sense in the long term just does not matter.

    It makes perfect sense to me.

  650. Ldcftoos
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    On subject of Jamie killing Alton for no real reason, a point seems not to be addressed. If Alton was active in any manner of Jamie’s escape plan (playing dead or injured) than Alton is as dead. There is no reason for him not to be offered to Karstark to at least calm the waters a bit. Jamie is of high value, Alton is of none. It may not really be much of a difference if he was knock out by Jamie (I can not perfectly describe why, all I say that in our modern world there are parts of it where a rape victim could be killed along with rapist. Read some history and people were put to death for crimes that amount to a few pennies). Alton have nothing to indicate he will be of any use. His Greatest life moment is of being a squire over a decade ago and nothing after that. Also, Jamie did state that plan was not very great but the opportunity did present itself and it is important to seize it when you can. So, may as well be killed by family and by your “hero” than be left to Northerns who not far remove from wildlings.
    This is not to make this the working of Jamie’s mind. I am a show watcher and slowly catching with wider wrong and the books. It was just a point that I was surprise I did not see here.

  651. Eos
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    OK, I didn’t get it. What was the point of Rickon’s walnuts? When Dagmer found them, Theon gave him a really meaningful look. What was that all about? Was this when the idea of a deception by using the orphans instead of Starks first came to be? And if so, why does it have anything to do with walnuts? Or was it just that Dagmer somehow figured out the Stark boys have been on the farm and decided the punishment for hiding them would actually come in handy for Theon’s cause the way it then did?

  652. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    darquemode:
    Winnie,

    Bran the Builder, the man reputed to have built The Wall was a Stark, Brandon Stark. Plus Benjen is (or was) the First Ranger for a few years and would be well known to the Wildlings beyond the wall. I guess really the Stark name has been associated with The Wall and the Night’s Watch for thousands of years.

    Ygritte would also know the Starks are the Lords of Winterfell. She’d be unaware of what happened to Ned and Theon’s latest exploits but she evidently figured that capturing a Stark boy would give the wildling side leverage in any negotiations. They wouldn’t ransom him for money, though – I doubt currency even exists north of the Wall. As Osha and Craster have already said, the wildlings just want to get past that ancient structure and flee south. Mance’s objective isn’t conquest, it’s an orderly retreat.

  653. KG
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Eos:
    OK, I didn’t get it. What was the point of Rickon’s walnuts? When Dagmer found them, Theon gave him a really meaningful look. What was that all about? Was this when the idea of a deception by using the orphans instead of Starks first came to be? And if so, why does it have anything to do with walnuts? Or was it just that Dagmer somehow figured out the Stark boys have been on the farm and decided the punishment for hiding them would actually come in handy for Theon’s cause the way it then did?

    Because Rickon is a noted and infamous lover of walnuts, so the presence of shells would be a great “THEY HAVE BEEN HERE!” clue?

  654. serum
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Ned’s name or a variation was mentioned 7 times in that episode, I love that his name keeps coming up as much as it does in the show b/c they talk about him all the time in the books. If you go back and watch all the episodes since his death you will realize just how much they talk about Lord Eddard Stark, its great, cant wait to count how many times they drop his name in the coming episode!!!!

  655. loco73
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    Exellent episode, whenever I think that I’ve seen it all, the show goes on and amazes me once again. I’ve seen the posting thread about the ratings…really people have nothing to complain about…These past few episodes have served as kind of “transition” episodes to set-up what is go come.

    Though many are babbling on and on about the freaking ratings, I actually enjoyed Ep. 5-7 a lot. This is some of the finest TV I have had the pleasure of watching! The fact that I am aware of that as I watch the show is even more telling. With some shows in the past, I liked them enough while watching, but I would give them more weight or importance once they were done, and only because television is just soo awful these days. “Game Of Thrones” is a treat and I for one am more than thrilled with the success it’s had and continues to have.

    I watch every episode multiple times, including repeats and OnDemand. Once the season is over I want to do a massive GoT marathon and watch all 20 episodes…

    PS When “The Two Towers” came out, it was pretty much in the same position as these current eGoT pisodes, it had to bridge “The Fellowship Of The Ring” and “The Return Of The King”…people were also bitching and moaning, though I thought that it was a fine, fine movie…

  656. Hassan Madkour
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Eos,

    a few episodes ago, we saw bran holding court and rickon was smashing walnuts. this episode we saw rickon obsessing over walnuts’s that hodor was cracking. i think theon associated rickon by his love of walnuts with the walnuts he found there, and as mentioned before, figured that the stark boys were here and burned the boys as a deception.

  657. Jillybean
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    For those who have mentioned it, my Husband is not a book reader, and he didn’t buy for a second that it was really Bran & Rickon burned up. I didn’t tell him either way, but he didn’t believe it. I think they could have done that a little better. Isn’t it revealed fairly soon that they are still alive?

  658. Jillybean
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    loco73,

    I agree! Two Towers was actually my favorite.

  659. PatD
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    charliesooner:
    I can’t take it anymore.I’ve read hundreds of posts and haven’t seen one which agrees with my understanding of Alton’s killing.Forgive me if some more recent post makes the following point which seems obvious to me:Jaime’s Target was not Alton and he didn’t appear to make a serious attempt at escape.He knew who his guard was and knew that the death of Karstark’s son would create conflict between Catlyn and Karstark.He knows Catlyn has to protect him in order to protect her daughter.

    This is a good theory except that I have no idea how Jaime would’ve known a Karstark was guarding him. Robb’s was a very random order for the Karkstark to take Alton to the pen and guard him, it was very dark, the guard is bundled up and unrecognizable, and at no point does he say, “My name is Karkstark, and I’ll be your guard for the evening.” He had to kill him to get away. It was just a terrific bonus that he turned out to be a Karstark.

    McKee:
    Well, I suppose I’d better chime in on the Jaime Lannister controversy.

    I think I’m comfortable assuming that to kill Alton was his first and only primary goal.What does this accomplish?

    The diplomatic emmisary that Robb has been using is now dead.In Robb’s camp, no less, and after delivering a firm rebuff from King’s Landing.This makes Robb look very bad, since Alton was under his protection.Sure, Robb might sing the Lannisters a song about how Jaime killed Alton in the pen they shared, but I frankly doubt that such a story would be believed.

    I think this is a darned good theory, especially in its simplicity, except it assumes that Jaime knew Alton’s identity, as well, and his role as an emmisary. Jaime doesn’t even know how they’re related, at first, plus, he’s been in pen isolation for a long, long time. How would he even know about Alton’s emmisary status?

    I think everyone’s over thinking Jaime’s motivations in this scene. He was just trying to put an end to his imprisonment and pawn status. Unless we see something illuminating this coming Sunday, I’m just going to have to admit that having Jaime kill Alton really wasn’t a well thought out or written plot point.

    But it’d be one of the few among a mostly brilliant adaptation.

  660. Tom
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    I’m not sure how to feel about all the changes between the books and the show. I guess there is time for Jon to kill the Halfhand to prove his “loyalty” to the wildlings. Also, the lack of Meera and Jojen Reed is bothering me because they are pretty important even later to Bran’s story.

  661. Shock Me
    Posted May 17, 2012 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Jillybean:
    loco73,

    I agree! Two Towers was actually my favorite.

    I’d have to agree. In fellowship there was no Tom Bombadil and in Return there was no scouring of the Shire. The changes to the Haldir character worked well and he had an awesome final scene on the wall at Helm’s Deep.

  662. ubderos
    Posted May 17, 2012 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Must write before I forget this:
    After watching the Kingslayer killed his cousin,
    the later scene between Tyrion and Cersei… that last moment, that close proximity… I was actually waiting for Cercei to strangle Tyrion too…
    Wondering if anyone else thinking the same, or it was just my murderous wishful thinking..

  663. Austin Chandler
    Posted May 17, 2012 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    2nd episode in a row that I am underwhelmed.

    I was fine with understandable changes to the books for the tv show. I am watching the show because I love the books. I might be loving the actors on the show and some of the changes but these last two episodes were very drastic. I am unsure of how the show will look anything like the books in the next season because of all the changes.

  664. Dave
    Posted May 17, 2012 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Horrible episode. Ever so annoying, both in terms of story and acting. How to ruin something good? This is how. Ratings will plummet for episode 18.

  665. Red Viper
    Posted May 17, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Love the show and the books. My only issue with this episode and the last episode is the change in Danys story. im glad they are spicing things up and her story more exciting, BUT they MESSED UP WITH THE PROPHECY! She can only be betrayed 3 times!!! once for blood, once for gold, and once for love. when xaro and pyat betray her it conflicts with the prophecy she is going to get at the house of the undying. I must say i cannot wait to see Dany in her “alice in wonderland” moment at the house of the undying. its gonna be awesome!

  666. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 18, 2012 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    Had to post cuz we were sittin at 666 posts on this thread! LOL

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