Recap round-up: “A Man Without Honor”
By Ours is the Fury on in Press.

Here are some notable recaps and reviews of the seventh episode of Game of Thrones‘s second season:

Book Readers
Axechucker – TVEquals
James Hibberd – Entertainment Weekly
Alyssa Rosenberg – ThinkProgress
Maureen Ryan – Huffington Post
Todd VanDerWerff – A.V. Club
James Poniewozik – Time
Rowan Kaiser – PressPlay
Josh Wigler – MTV
Scott Meslow – The Atlantic
Sean T. Collins – Rolling Stone
Westeros.org

New Viewers
Jenifer D. Braun – The NJ Star-Ledger
Alan Sepinwall – HitFix
David Sims – A.V. Club
Matt Richenthal – TV Fanatic
Larry Williams – OtakuASSEMBLE
John Kubicek – Buddy TV

HBO also provides regular recap and “Inside the Episode” videos every week:


297 Comments

  1. Shady_Grady
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    I left a recap here which generally avoids (future)book specific information. For the first time I think an episode was a bit rushed but maybe that’s the feel they were going for.

  2. Andrew
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Just didn’t like this episode… the Jamie scene completely ruined it for me. Totally not in character and didn’t make sense logically.

  3. Andy Gavin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    I agree that this isn’t quite as good as last week (my full episode review here). Still, there is some really good stuff. The John / Ygritte interaction is awesome. She’s doing a really good job with the character. The Arya / Tywin back and forth is also great – and a few of Jaime’s lines are really funny: “Is that a woman?”

  4. Maxwell James
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    The more I think about the episode, the more I like it. There was not a bad scene in it. And the Jaime-Alton scene, in particular, struck me as being downright brilliant.

  5. Josh
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    I don’t get how people say “That was out of character for Jaime” because it wasn’t. I could totally have seen him doing that in the books at this point in the novel. This is a man without honor, who does what he needs to do to please Ceresei and to get the job done. He cares about no one but Ceresi. He doesn’t care about being a “kinslayer”…He doesn’t believe in that, no more then he believes in honor.

  6. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    Yeah I was just ranting about that on tumblr. It’s totally in character. Jaime Lannister is not a good person, and Alton was pretty much a stranger to him. He’ll do whatever has to be done.

  7. Mike from Braavos
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Winter – you have Scott Meslow listed in the “New Viewer” recaps, but from reading his review it seems like he has read the books.

    Scott Meslow:
    Game of Thrones has surpassed even its source material in making Cersei, who could easily come off as a one-note villainess, nuanced and complex.

  8. Steve
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Andrew:
    Just didn’t like this episode… the Jamie scene completely ruined it for me. Totally not in character and didn’t make sense logically.

    How was that not in character when that kind of happened in the books anyway when he tried to escape?

  9. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Mike from Braavos,

    It’s how he was listed since last year. I’m guessing he’s read the books since then? I’ll just switch which section he’s in.

  10. Mike from Braavos
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Josh: This is a man without honor

    While I don’t care that much about the kinslayer change – I do think it was out of character, and definitely disagree with your assertion that he has no honor.

    Jaime killed the Mad King to save the thousands of lives that would have been lost if the wildfire cache had been lit as planned.

    I think pushing Bran out the window was the only overtly dishonorable thing he did in the books, and he felt he didn’t have much of a choice there.

    Besides, it seems like he could have just knocked him out – not sure why he felt he needed to beat him to death for this plan to work. The whole “guard – my fellow prisoner has fallen & can’t get up” bit is a pretty stable “escape from prison” cliche.

  11. Alexander Dubrovsky
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James:
    The more I think about the episode, the more I like it. There was not a bad scene in it. And the Jaime-Alton scene, in particular, struck me as being downright brilliant.

    Jaime-Alton scene also reminded the viewers about Barristan Selmy, whom we’ll hopefully see again really soon..

  12. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    The fact that Jaime thought killing Bran was his only option should tell you something about his moral compass. Killing is Jaime’s default response to problems.

  13. Random fan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Loved the episode, and yay! Larry’s back with a double feature, episodes 6-7 review! Good stuff all around GOT-wise this week

  14. Random fan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    @Our is The Fury

    yup, i had no problem with jaime killing alton. WARNING, MAJOR FUTURE BOOK SPOILER TO FOLLOW. IF YOU HAVEN’T READ PAST ACoK, DO NOT READ THIS:
    i think jaime really turned the corner once he lost his hand. before that, i could totally see him doing something like this. anyway, it’ll make his “change” have that much more of an impact on viewers. and i think when people start to sympathize with him, which i hope still happens, it’ll make them feel even more like, “wow, i can’t believe i actually like this guy now!”

  15. Tyrion4Lyfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Josh:
    I don’t get how people say “That was out of character for Jaime” because it wasn’t. I could totally have seen him doing that in the books at this point in the novel.This is a man without honor, who does what he needs to do to please Ceresei and to get the job done. He cares about no one but Ceresi.He doesn’t care about being a “kinslayer”…He doesn’t believe in that, no more then he believes in honor.

    I disagree. Jaime always thought what he did was for the betterment of the realm (killing Aegon). He was branded a “kingslayer” for performing what he thought to be an honorable act. I still think “kinslaying” would be below him, especially being of such high birth.

  16. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    You know, it’s funny because as much as Martin is trying to shove down the redemption path down my throat I still don’t like him . So that scene didn’t really bother me .

  17. LV
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    The fact that Jaime thought killing Bran was his only option should tell you something about his moral compass. Killing is Jaime’s default response to problems.

    This is wrong.

    The moment Bran saw them together, their lives as well as the lives of their children were forfeit, if nothing was done about it. Jaime’s action was drastic. But in order to preserve himself, his sister/lover and his children, he had to act – wrong as that might have been.

  18. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Even though it’s been his response to everything so far?

    (And continues to be his response until he loses his hand and has to adapt with new ways to survive?)

  19. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    LV: This is wrong.

    Why, because you said so ?

  20. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Still waiting on Jace Lacob and Myles McNutt reviews.

  21. biliki
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    I really dislike the Jaime scenes as well.

    Also, I don’t get why they insist that Jaime stabbed Aegon in the back :/
    He cut his throat, is that so hard to say?

    I get that they want to make him a villain so that his arc will be surprising later, but they’ve changed tons of things, like the Jory sequence, for instance. I don’t like this.

    Show viewers already hate him enough for the incest and throwing Bran out of a window, no need for all that extra stuff imo. :/

  22. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Ah, you added a reason. The thing is what you’re saying doesn’t refute what I said. Jaime thought killing Bran was his only option- his response, as we learned more about in this episode is one of extreme violence to solve a problem. Cersei herself criticized his reaction to Bran’s seeing them together.

  23. LV
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu: Why, because you said so ?

    No. Because the text says so.

  24. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    I really loved this episode, it as good if not even better than “Baelor” in some respects.
    I love all the changes, especially the changes to Jamie, as I believe they will serve the character well dramatically in the future.

    I didn’t like Mo Ryan’s review this week. She’s overdoing the Mad Men parallel, imo. Not only do I not agree with many of the correlations she’s making between the two shows, and find them superficial, but to review one show in context of another show that many readers may not have seen, is a presumptuous and sloppy way to offer an analysis, in my view.

  25. TheBull
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    It is irrelevant whether book Jaime would have done it because the characters on the show are not the same people that are in the books. TV Jaime would and did. And it was a fantastic scene.

  26. LV
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Yes, Cersei disagrees. But Cersei is not good at making quick and, more importantly, effective decisions in difficult circumstances. True, Jaime is neither a politician nor a strategist and violence is his preferred method of problem solving. But killing Bran was his only choice besides suicide (which would have entailed the death of his family, too). Cersei was shocked but what would she have done instead? Get Bran murdered by someone else? More ‘clean’, as the series likes to put it, but just as vile.

    After the first episode and later after the first season many non-readers in their reviews wrote that Jaime’s action was the most heinuous of all because he tried to kill a child. And while I don’t condone his action in any way, the series should have made the stakes more clear to those who don’t know the novels. Because what’s at stake for Jaime’s family is what makes him do what he does, not some kind of wanton cruelty, thoughtless and ruthless impulsivity.

  27. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Just a quick auggestion:
    Can we put the non-reader recap thread up like the reader recap thread right after the episode and it can just edited later so we can have a place to discuss spoiler free? Not trying to complain, just a friendly suggestion. Dying to discuss, but I avoid most discussions on here like the plague haha

  28. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    One: Glad that Larry is back. His friend giving him a fake spoiler that he took hook, line, and sinker is pretty amusing.

    Two: Hopefully this thread doesn’t get too bogged down on the Alton/Cleos being killed by Jaime issue. I don’t think that it’s as big an issue as it’s being made out to be.

  29. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    Doh forgot that for many there are no more screeners, so reviews take awhile to come out.

  30. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    TheBull,

    Yes, the tv show is going their own way and i wish people would realise that but no they want their carbon copies of the book so any change in the show is crap and all the things from the book are gold to them .

  31. Mean25
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Most changes from the books THIS season are moronic, D&D ruined 2nd season.
    Jame, Littlefinger, Shae, Cersei are ruined characters. New Gregor Clegane looks ridicules. Tywin is not a friendly grandpa. Why would Sandor tell on Sansa? Where the fuck is Ghost and why is Jon following Ygritte? Jamie is not a kinslayer. Kinslaying is one of the worst sins in Westeros, I don’t think even Jaime would do it.
    I enjoy the show for what it is, a D&D’s reimagining, not an adaptation of ASOIAF. I just wish they would call it like it is.

  32. Ryan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu:
    You know, it’s funny because as much as Martin is trying to shove down the redemption path down my throat I still don’t like him . So that scene didn’t really bother me .

    THANK YOU. Sure I feel bad for him a bit based on how things have happened recently, but I still hope he dies before the end of the series.

    No one messes with Overlord Brandon.

  33. Maxwell James
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    LV,

    Jaime’s action was drastic.

    Look, I love Jaime. He’s one of my favorite characters in the books. But the idea that something like kinslaying would seriously weigh on him, especially early on, and under desperate circumstances, is just wrong. And his circumstances were far more desperate in the show than they were at the same point in the book. I can totally see him killing his cousin for a chance to escape.

    The very think that makes Jaime such a compelling character is that he disregards moral conventions almost entirely. He’s not totally amoral – but he does not give a flying fuck about what other people think is right and wrong. For instance, never in the books does he indicate regret over what he did to Bran – except for the huge inconvenience it cost him. He operates by his own set of rules, and it is only the loss of his hand and his relationship with Brienne that challenge him to start thinking about how he wants to be seen and remembered.

    And the scene itself was a small masterpiece of escalating tension through exposition and blocking. The whole story was laid out visually by the physical distance between the two actors. Jaime laying the trap for his cousin, using his charm and observational skills to lure Alton closer, the other shifting back and forth but ultimately falling for it. And then – wham.

    Brilliant filmmaking.

  34. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Most changes from the books THIS season are moronic, D&D ruined 2nd season.
    Jame, Littlefinger, Shae, Cersei are ruined characters. New Gregor Clegane looks ridicules. Tywin is not a friendly grandpa. Why would Sandor tell on Sansa? Where the fuck is Ghost and why is Jon following Ygritte? Jamie is not a kinslayer. Kinslaying is one of the worst sins in Westeros, I don’t think even Jaime would do it.
    I enjoy the show for what it is, a D&D’s reimagining, not an adaptation of ASOIAF.I just wish they would call it like it is.

    If you are so annoyed at the show why do you still watch it ? Oh I forgot that you come with the book purist mentality as a lot of other people do here . Is one of the reasons why I don’t enjoy reading the comments except for a few laughs . And just because this season is not as faithful to the books as the last does not mean it’s a ruined season , it’s still good television .

  35. Mean25
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu: If you are so annoyed at the show why do you still watch it ?

    Beacause it’s good TV, just not a good adaptation. I can still enjoy it but I dislike when they call it an adaptation.

  36. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Mean25,

    The show still hits all the major notes of the books. The details on how they’re hit differs, but the overall plot is unchanged. I fail to see why this wouldn’t be seen as an adaptation.

  37. LV
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    O, I agree with you. And I don’t object to Jaime (of both versions) killing some insignificant relative. What I objected to was OITF’s assessment of his character by stating that his decision about Bran somehow shows him to be amoral and violent. She insinuated that his choice was especially telling in this regard because there were other choices available at that moment. My point is that there weren’t any (except suicidal ones).
    And maybe the series didn’t make this clear for all viewers. Though there was the great scene where Eddard warns Cersei and tells her to flee from Robert’s wrath, which – as the Targaryens’ showcase – would have taken her children, too.

  38. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Andrew: Just didn’t like this episode… the Jamie scene completely ruined it for me. Totally not in character and didn’t make sense logically.

    It makes perfect sense for his character. Jaime has had no way to distract the guards attention, because all the attention is on him. The plan has probably been in the works for a while, he was always isolated in his own pen making it unusable. Jaime’s motivation is to get back to Cersei. He is not afraid of death so really escape gives him pretty good odds of getting out of the captive situation he loaths.
    Results of the escape would be:
    1) He is killed in the attempt.
    2) He is successful and escapes.
    3) He is recaptured and put back in prison.

    For Jaime the worst outcome is the third option. So there is a 2 out of 3 chance of getting out of this situation and a 1/3 chance of ending up in the same situation he is in.

    NCW did a wonderful job in this scene. There are points in the dialogue where you see the regret of what he is doing appear on his face. But that is the character of Jaime, to push the regret aside and follow through with a plan.

  39. Tyrion4Lyfe
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu: If you are so annoyed at the show why do you still watch it ? Oh I forgot that you come with the book purist mentality as a lot of other people do here . Is one of the reasons why I don’t enjoy reading the comments except for a few laughs . And just because this season is not as faithful to the books as the last does not mean it’s a ruined season , it’s still good television .

    I totally agree. At first my book purist side took over, but after a few “surprises”, I am happy that the changes were made (well, most of them).

  40. Andrew
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    I understand that it’s an adaptation, but I view the books as a masterpiece and don’t like to see some of the best characters, motivations, and nuances cut or changed. Call me a purist, that’s just how I feel.

  41. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    3) He is recaptured and put back in prison.

    For Jaime the worst outcome is the third option. So there is a 2 out of 3 chance of getting out of this situation and a 1/3 chance of ending up in the same situation he is in.

    I’m happy they showed his sigh of relief when Catelyn calls for the sword.

  42. Jim
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    TheBull,

    This. I see the show as like an alternate reality. It is really enjoyable watching it from that perspective.

  43. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    The adaptation is still quite faithful, especially when you compare it to other movies and TV shows based on books. It could be more faithful, true. I guess I’m just thrilled it hasn’t turned out as awful as the adaptations of The Dark is Rising and Legend of the Seeker.

    LV,

    Pushing a child out of a window intending to murder him is an amoral act. Regardless of the circumstances. We may have different ideas of morality, that’s normal, but I think his willingness to execute an innocent child indicates his lack of morals. To me as a parent, murdering a child is pretty much the worst thing anyone can ever do. When Jaime pushed Bran out the window, he wasn’t even thinking of protecting Cersei’s children (he doesn’t really consider them his beyond biology- that is mentioned in the books), but only of himself and Cersei.

  44. Mike from Braavos
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Even though it’s been his response to everything so far?

    (And continues to be his response until he loses his hand and has to adapt with new ways to survive?)

    He’s a warrior – that is what warrior’s do. That doesn’t mean he is without honor – especially in the context of the world GRRM created.

    In the scene in KL w/ Ned – while he tells his men to kill Ned’s men, he does instruct his men to leave Ned alive. If he acted as you describe him, he should have just killed Ned himself in that scene.

    For the record, while I think the kinslaying was out of character for book Jaime – I’m not opposed to TV Jaime doing it.

  45. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Mike from Braavos,

    The only reason he told his men to leave Ned alive is because Tyrion was being held by his wife, as Ned pointed out. He had every intention of killing Ned at the start.

  46. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    The fact that Jaime thought killing Bran was his only option should tell you something about his moral compass. Killing is Jaime’s default response to problems.

    I agree with you that the changes are in character, but I don’t think you can draw a line from Bran to Alton.

    The difference between Bran incident and Alton’s is that from Jamie’s view he didn’t have a choice with Bran. Lives were going to be forfeit as soon as Bran showed up at that window. The only choice was whose lives will it be? And from his point of view that is no choice at all. Cersie and kids live, Bran dies. Also, in case of Bran it wasn’t a calculated murder, it was born of the circumstance, he didn;t have time to reflect on it.

    With Alton, Jamie had a choice, several choices, in fact. Also, Jamie’s life was not in impending danger, he knew full well that he was too valuable to kill. He killed Alton because he couldn’t take captivity any longer, and he calculatingly used that boy’s awe of him to draw close in order to kill him. It was a cold and calculated murder. Was it out od character? Not, I think for the Jamie we saw tonight.

    In this episode we saw a Jamie in an emotional and mental state unlike anything we’ve seen of him in the books. Tonight, the show gave is a desperate Jamie. A man at his wit’s end. A man trying hard to hold on to his mind, his courage, himself from being taken away by his imprisonment. It’s as if being a hostage has taken away more than his freedom, it was slowly taking away his sanity. That is what I got from NCW’s performance tonight.
    And that is exactly why I think killing Alton is in character with this Jamie. The closest we’ve seen to this Jamie in the books, imo, is the Jamie who killed the Mad King. The Jamie made so desperate by the confines of his situation – having to stand idly by, imprisoned by his oaths, as Aerys tortured innocents – that he strikes to free himself – and in the case of Aerys free King’s Landing also – the only way he knows how.

    Admittedly I’m reading a lot from NCW’s performance in my analysis of Jamie’s mental state in this episode, but that’s how it came across to me.

  47. TheBull
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Andrew:
    I understand that it’s an adaptation, but I view the books as a masterpiece and don’t like to see some of the best characters, motivations, and nuances cut or changed. Call me a purist, that’s just how I feel.

    I can understand that but changes and cuts are inevitable in any adaptation so if you aren’t open to them, why watch? I’m genuinely curious.

  48. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Mike from Braavos,

    Jaime wasn’t thinking on his feet in that scene, he was following orders from Cersei.

  49. Ryan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    He could have cut Bran’s tongue out for instance. Now I’m sure Bran could point or write it down that it was Jaime, but there’s ways to stop that too. Killing him wasn’t the ONLY choice he had, but it was the first and probably easiest idea he would have had. I can’t fault Jaime for pushing him out the window, but it’s interesting people defend his actions so strongly when it did not have to be that way.

  50. Ryan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    And twinfucking seems a bit amoral to me. And it’s not like it was tolerated in their household.

  51. Random fan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone not remember the scene with Jaime and Cersei when he said basically so what if people find out their secret? He’ll kill the starks, the king, everyone, “the whole bloody lot of them,” until him and Cersei are the only ones left in this world? Clearly he wasn’t against killing to get what he wants. And right now he wants to be free, and by being free to be back with Cersei and his children. If you agree he threw bran from the balcony to preserve himself and his family, why wouldn’t freeing himself to be with said family be the same thing? And before you say Alton is his family too, I mean his immediate family. I think they made it a point to show Jaime didn’t really know what Alton’s Lannister lineage was at first, and in the end he is just a distant relative, not as important as the love of his life and his children. From Jaime’s point of view, wouldn’t he want to be around to protect them? Just my 2 cents….

  52. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Ryan,

    Bran falling while climbing (as he always does) would be easier to explain than Bran’s tongue suddenly being cut out. Another person would have had to have done the cutting, while falling could have been accidental. He expected him to die.

    It should be noted that Jaime did not make a 2nd attempt to kill him when he survived, that it was all Joffrey’s doing. So that’s says something of his honor at least.

  53. LV
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:

    LV,

    Pushing a child out of a window intending to murder him is an amoral act. Regardless of the circumstances. We may have different ideas of morality, that’s normal, but I think his willingness to execute an innocent child indicates his lack of morals. To me as a parent, murdering a child is pretty much the worst thing anyone can ever do. When Jaime pushed Bran out the window, he wasn’t even thinking of protecting Cersei’s children (he doesn’t really consider them his beyond biology- that is mentioned in the books), but only of himself and Cersei.

    Yeah. So?
    I don’t question the (subjective) wrongness of his action. Most people wouldn’t agree with someone shoving a child from a tower.
    But still, Jaime was protecting himself, his sister/lover (as well as their children, even though you are correct to qualify his parental attachment). His action is understandable and it is a reaction to extreme (and extemely dangerous) circumstances. Who cares about morals when your life (and more!) is in imminent danger of ending in a most horrible fashion?… oO

  54. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    I really didn’t like Larry Williams’ anti-Sansa rant the other day, but in this review his initial analysis of the final scene made perfect sense:

    Theon’s obviously way out of his depth and so desperate for respect he’ll take terror in its stead. Dagmer found the crushed walnuts, which he tied to Rickon (apparently, that kid’s nutcracker fingers were the talk of Winterfell). However, they might as well have been left there by anyone else (using a tool), e.g. one of the orphans Bran had sent to that particular farm. Luwin’s been maester in Winterfell for decades, he surely knows every single farm near that small town.

    Later, Theon very theatrically displayed the two childrens’ corpses, not just charred beyond recognition but also hanged – as if to make double sure! Had he actually captured Bran and Rickon, he would of course have made sure that everyone could see the faces of their corpses to eliminate any doubt regarding their identities. Luwin must have recognized immediately that Theon had captured and burned two arbitrary boys – presumably the aforementioned orphans – purely to avoid derision at having failed to find the Stark boys. Butchering Ser Rodrik was one thing. Butchering innocent children was quite another.

    The event reinforced that Theon’s moral compass is now irrevocably broken, cp. Joffrey in King’s Landing. How long before Roose Bolton’s bastard avenges the sack of Winterfell?

  55. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    So Kingslaying when he knew that was the right thing to do morally, is weighing on his conscience and defining the attitude he has been living with ever since, but kinslaying when he knew that he had others opportunities to achieve the same goal will not ?
    I’m not really following you on this or are you saying that Jaime (Book or Show) is not bothered at all by his kingslayer surname?

  56. Serevasix
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm… The Jamie scene did not make sense. Killing Alton was simply… Dumb. (Maybe that was the point.) If Jamie’s goal in that scene was to attract the guard’s attention, there really was no reason to do what he did. If anything, he could have ‘pretended’ to kill alton and when the guard comes in, they could have jumped him together. They could have escaped together.

    Another idea is that maybe Jamie wanted to die. Maybe that was his goal. He probably knew that escape was futile so he probably wanted to get it over with and get executed. Even so, there was no point in killing his cousin. That really wouldn’t have made any difference.

  57. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Andrew: I understand that it’s an adaptation, but I view the books as a masterpiece and don’t like to see some of the best characters, motivations, and nuances cut or changed. Call me a purist, that’s just how I feel.

    Jaime’s motivation is exactly the same as it was in the books. Get out of jail either by escape or by death. Either one works for him.

    What works in books doesn’t work on screen. And GRRM wrote these to be unfilmable.

    Del: I’m happy they showed his sigh of relief when Catelyn calls for the sword.

    That was perfect. He really would rather die then be forced to live another day in prison. He tried getting Robb to kill him and failed. He is almost happy talking about it being his last night alive when Cat enters.

  58. Ryan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Del,

    Except for the fact that Bran has never fallen and no one in his family believes him. Hell you could have knocked the boy out and hid him til he left and figured another way to hide his secret. Hell, why in seven hells is he fucking her in Winterfell anyways? Doesn’t Cersei have a gigantic carriage that she can shut herself in.

    For your second part, they were given the greatest gift they could have received. Amensia. Lucky Lannisters.

  59. Andrew
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    TheBull,

    There haven’t been too many drastic changes so far, and I have liked the adaptation. The Jamie scene last night was the first one that really bothered me. If they continue down that path with Jamie or make similar changes to very important parts of the story, I will probably stop watching.

  60. TheBull
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Remaal:
    In this episode we saw a Jamie in an emotional and mental state unlike anything we’ve seen of him in the books. Tonight, the show gave is a desperate Jamie. A man at his wit’s end. A man trying hard to hold on to his mind, his courage, himself from being taken away by his imprisonment. It’s as if being a hostage has taken away more than his freedom, it was slowly taking away his sanity. That is what I got from NCW’s performance tonight.
    And that is exactly why I think killing Alton is in character with this Jamie. The closest we’ve seen to this Jamie in the books, imo, is the Jamie who killed the Mad King. The Jamie made so desperate by the confines of his situation – having to stand idly by, imprisoned by his oaths, as Aerys tortured innocents – that he strikes to free himself – and in the case of Aerys free King’s Landing also – the only way he knows how

    This is how I saw it as well. He’s desperate, certainly enough to try to goad Cat into killing him so why not enough to kill some distant relative he doesn’t give a damn about?

  61. Nimble Dick
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Larry is Back, and all is right in the world

  62. All_Men_Must_Post
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    I liked the Jaime scene and it looks others did as well. Here’s my review (and below):

    Welcome back Jaime. We’re three episodes away from the Season 2 finale and it’s about time we have our favorite kin(g)slayer return to our fold. While the episode is entitled “A Man Without Honor”, I struggled to connect the various characters to the honor theme last night (aside from Jaime and Xaro). Rather, I was drawn to Tywin’s speech about legacy. Harrenhal is a scorched physical husk of a proud family’s legacy. Joffrey is a cruel living regal reminder of Cersei and Jaime’s sins. The kitten-sized dragons will be the legacy of the Mother of Dragons. Theon’s taking of Winterfell and his subsequent blunder of losing the Stark boys may be his. And as Tywin reminds us: you’re only remembered for your last accomplishment. Four of five stars.

    What I liked:

    1. You know nothing, Jon Snow. Readers of the books have been waiting for this line for some time. Ygritte’s flirtatious banter with Jon Snow is well-handled and Kit Harrington does his best to blush in the cold Icelandic air. I would watch a romantic comedy with these two. She’s a red-haired wildling who yearns to be free. He’s a Stark bastard in the Night’s Watch. Together they’re wandering beyond the wall looking for Mance Raydar… and love? I also love that everyone watching last night’s episode heard a short explanation about how Jon Snow relieves his blue balls. And it was done so tastefully… Do you have sheep at the wall?

    2. The education of Sansa Stark. Sansa received advice from two unlikely mentors last night. First, the Hound taught her about the utility of his hateful nature. Sansa is quickly learning that the horrible man in her employ may not be the honorable man like her father, but he will keep her safe. The other was from the Queen herself. The Queen relates with Sansa in a very intimate way. She was also married off to a man she didn’t love. While Robert was a drunk, Joffrey is cruel and Cersei knows this, which is why she she’s all the more sympathetic to Sansa. She knows better than most about the cruelties of being a woman in Westeros so she offers Sansa her guiding principle (and perhaps her downfall?): love no one else but your children.

    3. Tywin Lannister. I’ve been giving Arya a lot of credit (because it’s well-deserved) but Charles Dance deserves his own moment to shine this time. Consider in the scene with the Mountain and Arya, Tywin effortlessly transitions from being a ruthless conqueror, a doting father and patriarch, regal, and at times, even an intellectual peer to Arya (which is a compliment to both). He is self-aware enough to know the brilliance in this child and he’s not threatened by her.

    4. There’s only one fat Lannister. There are no one-sided characters in Game of Thrones (aside from the Mountain). Perhaps no one personifies it better than Jaime Lannister. It’s hard to like this guy because it’s so easy to like him. Nobody feels sorry for the handsome popular high-school jock. Jaime channels Emilio Estevez in The Breakfast Club except he’s got Judd Nelson’s wit. Jaime’s greatest weapon in the field is his sword-hand but when tied to a post, it’s his sharp tongue. He uses both deftly to deflect what he knows but few suspect—he’s alone in the world. His father disapproves of him, his love for his sister may be more one-sided than he would like, he cannot acknowledge his children publicly, and he’s spent his adult life swearing and breaking oaths to men underserving of his honor. As he said in the first season, there are no men like him.

    What I didn’t like:

    1. A King in Qarth. Okay, I barely dislike this. I understand the showrunners’ interest in deviating from the books. Dany has barely anything to do in Qarth and having a bit of intrigue with Xaro and the warlocks makes for some manufactured drama. The only problem I see is that the storyline here flows poorly compared to the Westerosi plots (and it only partly has to do with Dany being so geographically isolated). George R.R. Martin spent years writing A Clash of Kings so the stories are tied together well whereas David and DB have had approximately a year. So they get a pass… plus the simultaneous assassination looked awesome.

    Three more episodes to go, folks!

  63. Meg
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Some things I would like clarified by more perceptive viewers than myself:
    Did Alton say he was a Lannister by marriage?
    Why did Jaime tell Catelyn about the incest?

  64. Alice
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    I need to give a shout-out to Larry Williams. If you’ve never checked out his reviews, this week’s is particularly good. He’s just a really charismatic & funny guy, and watching his videos is like watching the show with a friend who’s never read the books. It lets you see the series through new eyes.

  65. Sean T. Collins
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink
  66. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Ryan,

    Nobody suspected that foul play was at work until the assassin. They were surprised that Bran fell, because he never did so before, but nothing else would have come of it if Joffrey hadn’t ruined everything.

  67. Maxwell James
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan,

    I don’t see a contradiction. He’s annoyed at being known as the Kingslayer, yes; but it never weighs on his conscience. Far from it – in the books, he’s quite clear that it was his finest moment.

  68. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Alyssa Rosenberg’s review this week is wonderful. An insightful read.

    TheBull,

    It’s not just that he didn’t give a damn about his cousin, which he didn’t, it’s that he didn’t give a damn about anything. He needed out! That’s the begin all and end all for him this episode. Any out, no matter the cost, will do.
    Kudos to NCW, his masterfully nuanced performance said it all.

  69. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Most changes from the books THIS season are moronic, D&D ruined 2nd season.
    Jame, Littlefinger, Shae, Cersei are ruined characters. New Gregor Clegane looks ridicules. Tywin is not a friendly grandpa. Why would Sandor tell on Sansa? Where the fuck is Ghost and why is Jon following Ygritte? Jamie is not a kinslayer. Kinslaying is one of the worst sins in Westeros, I don’t think even Jaime would do it.
    I enjoy the show for what it is, a D&D’s reimagining, not an adaptation of ASOIAF.I just wish they would call it like it is.

    RUINED! RUINED, I SAY!

    A man who would throw an eight year old out the window spontaneously would never kill a random eighth cousin to escape right right after he commented that he’s useless unless fighting.

    Tywin is a cuddly grandpa as he ordered the death of many people to find the assassin, ordered the rape of the surrounding area and had Arya taste test his food. Damn him for being lenient with a young girl who reminds him of his daughter! Yes, I know he was one dimensional and never a POV in the books but I do not have enough imagination to think that maybe he could be a real person and not a caricature!

    Why wouldn’t Sandor tell on Sansa? Sandor is a dutiful dog. What story are you people reading? He does little things to help Sansa. He hardly goes against his lord, even when he sends people to beat her.

    More and more I realize that most people aren’t really getting the characters in the books. My favorite is the concept that Jaime doesn’t change over the course of the series — he’s merely “revealed” and “misunderstood.” Yeah, you love a guy who threw a kid out the window. It’s a normal human dissonance. Live with it.

  70. ace
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Brian Juergens episode review/recap at afterelton.com is up

    http://www.afterelton.com/tv/recaps/game-thrones-recap-207-mothers-day-episode

  71. Mike
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Alice:
    I need to give a shout-out to Larry Williams. If you’ve never checked out his reviews, this week’s is particularly good. He’s just a really charismatic & funny guy, and watching his videos is like watching the show with a friend who’s never read the books. It lets you see the series through new eyes.

    The popularity of Larry’s reviews baffles me. I can’t seem to get through more than about minute or two of him before giving up.

  72. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    This:

    Talissa (I think that’s her name – the nurse who looks like Jennifer Love Hewitt) drops by in her bloody apron to ask Robb to go to CVS to pick up some supplies and also some heroin (which, if you go to the CVS I go to, is totally not a problem). He calls her “my lady”, which reminds us that, like his sister, she’s of noble birth but hiding it. Okay, if I wanted to watch a show about a bunch of rich chicks pretending to be poor because they think it’s cool, I’d watch Girls.

    and This

    and This:

    … she may as well have told him the dragons were in the basement of the Alamo.

    and, of course, This:

    … what’s not to like about an evil queen slitting the necks of an entire city council? Just try and tell me you haven’t wished you could do the same at one point or another. I cannot. get. enough. of those crazypants Qarth people – I hope that the season ends with a huge drag ball at the House of the Undying, with Lady Matchy-Matchy using her head as the disco ball.

    can only mean that Brian Juergens is up at AfterElton.com.

  73. Random fan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Mike: The popularity of Larry’s reviews baffles me.I can’t seem to get through more than about minute or two of him before giving up.

    larry is pure awesomeness.

  74. Mike V
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:37 pm | Permalink
  75. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I fully agree!

    Also concerning Jamie, this season’s change will make for a wonderful parallel with Season 3 Jamie when he loses his hand. HIs reaction today to a temporary imprisonment and loss of identity, will contrast sharply with his transformation in reaction to a permanent curtailment of his self worth and loss of Identity by a physical disability.

    I truly believe D&D wrote it with that in mind. And we as a readers and viewers that the writers are not just writing with dramatic effect for the one episode, but to maximize dramatic character changes in future episodes. For instance, in the case of Cersie, they are softening her now to maximize the the effect of AFFC Cersie. The Cersie that goes slightly mad and loses all self-control, and rational thought after the deaths of both her eldest son and her father, and the loss of Jamie.

  76. Del
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    It’s enjoyable to watch someone who hasn’t read the books go through the emotional journey that we did when we first read the novels. I like reading reviews, but it’s a different thing altogether to actually watch someone enthusiastically or angrily go over what they just experienced. Larry’s reaction to Ned (that yes, I understand a few believe to be staged) was pretty much my own when I got to that part in the book. Different language, of course. I stopped reading it for a week.

    It’s not for everyone, and I understand that.

  77. paylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Just wanted to say that I agree with everything you said here. Jamie is not the hero, people. He’s a complicated man, for sure. But for killing a distant cousin be the bridge too far for people? It’s ridiculous. The first thing we saw him do is shove a 10 year old boy out a window. That’s all you need to know about the depths of his depravity. I loved a recent interview Nicolaj Coster-Waldau did where he said Jamie’s actions speak louder than anything, and the first thing he ever did was throw a boy out a window. He loves his character, but he doesn’t feel sorry for him. That’s exactly how I feel about Jamie, both in the books and in the TV series.

  78. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Mike V:
    Grantland.com has their recap up, excellent as usual.

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/49448/game-of-thrones-season-2-episode-7-a-man-without-honor

    I love reading him every week. He’s hilarious. I disagree with his today, but he still made me laugh.

  79. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: he wasn’t even thinking of protecting Cersei’s children (he doesn’t really consider them his beyond biology- that is mentioned in the books), but only of himself and Cersei.

    Almost, but protecting himself really isn’t part of the true character. There are only 2 people in the world that Jaime would protect, Cersei and Tyrion. That’s the beauty of Jaime/Brienne is he actually starts to care about someone else.

    Killing Alton was Jaime’s way of forcing someone to kill him. He tried to convince Cat to do it and she only hit him the one time. He tried mocking Robb into doing it and was inches from getting his way and failed. He saw killing Alton as his only option to force someone to kill him while he escaped.

  80. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    ace:
    Brian Juergens episode review/recap at afterelton.com is up

    http://www.afterelton.com/tv/recaps/game-thrones-recap-207-mothers-day-episode

    Brian appears to have missed what I took to be the central point of the conversation between Tyrion and Cersei: she has resigned herself to letting Tyrion remove Joffrey from power before Stannis shows up with his fleet.

    Tyrion’s barb that “it’s hard to put a leash on a dog once you put a crown on its head” implies he no longer thinks of his eldest nephew as a human being. Mad dogs are put down. Of course, she may well have misunderstood, expecting that Tyrion would merely seize Joffrey and send him off to a monastry or something.

    Saying that two out of three ain’t half bad was a very bitter consolation prize on Mother’s Day, though Tyrion apparently meant it as an olive branch: if Joffrey cannot be king, then Tommen shall be. Tyrion does not intend to seize the throne himself (or so he would have Cersei believe).

    Whatever Cersei ended up consenting to with those glances at the end, it confirmed that no matter how much she loves her children, they are fundamentally only a means to one end: her royal power, even if she has to continue sharing it with Tyrion, at least for the time being.

  81. TyrionFan57
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    I believe that Xaro/Pyat Pree kidnapped Doreah along with the dragons and that Dany will find her in the House of the Undying. I refuse to believe that Doreah betrayed her.

    I am also wondering if they will include Robb’s beheading of Karstark. Karstark will probably do something really, really bad in the next few episodes or early next season to deserve the beheading. In the book, he killed two Lannister prisoners, but these have not been shown in the series yet.

  82. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Remaal:
    Alan,

    I fully agree!

    Also concerning Jamie, this season’s change will make for a wonderful parallel with Season 3 Jamie when he loses his hand. HIs reaction today to a temporary imprisonment and loss of identity, will contrast sharply with his transformation in reaction to a permanent curtailment of his self worth and loss of Identity by a physical disability.

    I truly believe D&D wrote it with that in mind. And we as a readers and viewers that the writers are not just writing with dramatic effect for the one episode, but to maximize dramatic character changes in future episodes. For instance, in the case of Cersie, they are softening her now to maximize the the effect of AFFC Cersie. The Cersie that goes slightly mad and loses all self-control, and rational thought after the deaths of both her eldest son and her father, and the loss of Jamie.

    Agree, Remaal.

    One of the things that was really apparent in this episode was actually how careful they have been about setting things up and answering questions. Book purists have no patience and are constantly crying foul. But the writers have left very few holes open and are always laying groundwork.

    Examples:

    1) The setup of the Miller’s kids, going back many episodes to when Bran was ruling in Winterfell.

    2) The Walnuts, as forced as it somewhat was, was originally just feral Rickon smashing.

    3) Xaro’s speech about not being proud of what he has done.

    4) Tywin’s continual slow reveal that he knows a lot more about Arya than he lets on at any one time. Tywin’s reasons for liking Arya become more apparent. What was one “ridiculous” that he would indulge this character is understandable.

    5) Tyrion’s discussion of what Jaime would do to Lancel set up the killing of Alton well and will play out even better when Jaime chooses NOT to kill him later.

    6) There’s a lot of discussion of why did the Warlocks wait until now to move; why do they need Dany or Xaro. But of course the latter is partially solved by the fact that he had access to the dragons and the first, at least in the books, revolve around the idea that the dragons are the source of magic. This would also explain why Dany may be necessary. I expect this to come out next episode.

    7) The mention of Selmy. Perfectly placed for the introduction of Arstan.

    8) The set up of Talisa as Jane. The crag was worked nicely in there and you wouldn’t even think her reticence was not about going with him but rather going there.

    9) It’s amazing that somehow the Karstarks are still incorporated in nearly exactly the same role despite all the handwringing about Torrhen and brother not dying in the Whispering Wood. Crazy.

    10) Roose watching Robb self-destruct.

    11) Jaime’s pre-occupation with Brienne already starting. In some book-reader reviews, it was described as a flaw — distracting from his speech. Nope, just some nice character development and foreshadowing.

    And of course, as you point out, Jaime’s definition of himself is firmly entrenched as SWORDSMAN, and he can be nothing else. What a wonderful placement, how incredibly consistent with the character and the books! And yet, people are centering on the fact that this Lannister (who Jaime clearly despised in the books — at one point threatening him) is like a sixth cousin!

  83. Rob
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    And that’s why the lannisters win. Their default option is to completely wipe out threats. The shrewd and ruthless are the winners in westeros

  84. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    LV,

    He could have ran with his family. Ran back to his papa or simply disappeared.

    He didn’t have to try and murder a little boy. He just didn’t.

  85. Vanderhook
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    I was conflicted about the Jaime/Alton scene at first, but the more I think of it the more I like it.

    It *is* in character. This is pre-SoS Jaime we’re talking about here. Jaime plays fast and loose with morals and rules. You’re telling me that Jaime would kill the man he swore to protect and attempt to murder a child, but that he is above killing a cousin that he barely knows to help him escape imprisonment? I don’t buy it. Alton is essentially the same character as Cleos. Just because his last name is now Lannister doesn’t make him any more important to Jaime. Jaime totally would have killed Cleos if he thought it would help him, just like how he killed Alton.

    Ours is the Fury is right on this one. Y’all purists are a bunch of haters.

  86. LV
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Whoever answered Larry’s question regarding Bran’s fate seems to be a douche… ;)

  87. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Rob:
    Ours is the Fury,

    And that’s why the lannisters win. Their default option is to completely wipe out threats. The shrewd and ruthless are the winners in westeros

    Ain’t doing them much good nowadays.

  88. Virtus
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook:
    I was conflicted about the Jaime/Alton scene at first, but the more I think of it the more I like it.

    It *is* in character. This is pre-SoS Jaime we’re talking about here. Jaime plays fast and loose with morals and rules. You’re telling me that Jaime would kill the man he swore to protect and attempt to murder a child, but that he is above killing a cousin that he barely knows to help him escape imprisonment? I don’t buy it. Alton is essentially the same character as Cleos. Just because his last name is now Lannister doesn’t make him any more important to Jaime. Jaime totally would have killed Cleos if he thought it would help him, just like how he killed Alton.

    Ours is the Fury is right on this one. Y’all purists are a bunch of haters.

    The thing is that Jaime didn’t need to kill Alton. Telling him to play dead in order to attract the guard’s attention would have served exactly the same purpose. Having Jaime kill Alton instead just makes him seem like a sociopath, which he never was. He might have been an amoral egoist at this point of the story, but he always justified his actions to himself as serving a greater good (good of the city’s people in the case of Aerys, protection of Cersei and their children in the case of Bran). He didn’t just kill for fun.

  89. Mike from Braavos
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Jaime wasn’t thinking on his feet in that scene, he was following orders from Cersei.

    Fair enough… so when WAS he thinking on his feet and responded w/ killing someone in the books before he lost his hand. Aerys and Bran… but I can’t think of another. Maybe I’m just forgetting some. Although it seems like saying “Killing is Jaime’s default response to problems.” might be a bit of a stretch.

    I guess I’m judging him more on the peek we get inside his head – and really my only piont is that he has a sense of honor (which is how this all started, with Josh’s assertion that he doesn’t care about honor).

  90. Virtus
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Rob:
    Ours is the Fury,

    And that’s why the lannisters win. Their default option is to completely wipe out threats. The shrewd and ruthless are the winners in westeros

    Yes, but Alton was a Lannister. He was on Jaime’s side. Tywin has told Jaime all his life that House Lannister comes first. It would thus seem weird to resort to kinslaying especially when the situation did not require it.

  91. daprosinik
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Great post Alan, it’s because to comments like this that I keep reading this site. Purists are really annoying.

  92. iiandyiiii
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    As far as deviating from the novels goes, this is how I see it (and this can go for any franchise of books/movies/tv shows, like Star Trek, for example):

    Out there in the universe and the multi-verse, everything that can happen both has happened and will happen. All stories and fictional narratives, no matter the type of media, are “plucked from the ether”, so to speak. George R R Martin plucked the novels from the multi-verse ether and put them on the page, and they’re great. The HBO guys plucked almost the same exact story, but with some differences, from the ether, and it’s great too. In the “official Westerosi canon universe” or whatever, it doesn’t matter which actually happened, because they both did (in different universes, if you like to think of it that way).

    So it doesn’t matter when one adaptation deviates from another. One may be better than the other, or they both may be great (or terrible)… but don’t worry about the “truthfulness” of one or the other.

    Or you can just say “it’s just a book/movie/tv-show”… but that’s probably tougher for us giant ASOIAF fans :)

  93. LordStarkington
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6nr8XDccHQ

    The animated guys’ review

  94. cranscape
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    paylor,

    Jaime’s world is really small when the story starts. It is comprised of his brother and sister and that is it. He gave up a brilliant career and family title just so he could be near her. He is more loyal to that than even she is. He isn’t really political or have aspirations even though he seems to see the truth in a situation quicker than most. He knows what the rules out there are and he is following his own instead.

    You have to remember in the books he was Robb’s age when he killed the mad king and had all that notoriety put on him by those like Ned who should have known better. Jaime retreated into his small circle and hasn’t looked back. It isn’t until things progress in the story that he starts to look at the bigger world again from another perspective and see himself opening up to even one new person.

  95. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    iiandyiiii: Out there in the universe and the multi-verse, everything that can happen both has happened and will happen.

    Dude, you’re getting all quantum mechanical / Schrödinger’s cat on us!
    Cool. So if you put a Lannister in steel box with some wildfire … never mind.

    I understand your point. It’s an adaptation. It may not be the last adaptation. Ten, twenty or one hundred years from now there may be another. Maybe a very well animated adaptation. Maybe there already is … in another reality.

  96. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Mean25: Tywin is not a friendly grandpa.

    +1. This isn’t even about the books for me, but more a matter of logic. Tywin is supposed to be one of the smartest men around, particularly when it comes to warfare, but his response to sussing out that Arya is most likely a northern noble girl is to keep fanboying her. At the very least she’s worth a ransom, if she isn’t somehow involved in the poison dart attack. Either way he should be far more careful or, if we go by canon, far more ruthless. I’m hoping we see some changes next episode.

    I enjoyed the Tywin/Arya scenes in the beginning, and certainly the acting continues to be incredible. But enough is enough here. GRRM wrote a story where even the innocent, the beloved, and certainly the war prisoners all suffer consequences. One might argue that D&D allowed Dany to suffer more for her missteps than she did in the book. And yet Arya, despite the harrowing scenes from her arrival at Harrenhal, has turned into a slapstick routine. Another stereotypical heroine who is able to beat all the odds because the rules magically don’t apply to her. She deserves better.

  97. Herschel
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Mean25,

    Jamie could have just knocked his cousin out cold and the escape attmept would have been just as efffective. I would think that killing a cousin, however distant would be beneath a Lanister and it was quite forseable that he would need the help of his cousin to escape from enemy lines in any event ~ someone to serve as his aide and watch his back during the long trip home would be benificial to any valid escape attempt. and who better than one already pledged to serve your sister and nuclear family, your former squire and distant cousin?

  98. Jack Slap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Mike from Braavos,

    He tried to kill a child. You loose any honor you may have had after that.

  99. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    Mazal tov. But, didn’t Tevye forgive you in the end despite your marriage to Fyedka? Humm?! Talk about sidestepping the rules. ;-)

  100. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Mike from Braavos: While I don’t care that much about the kinslayer change – I do think it was out of character, and definitely disagree with your assertion that he has no honor.

    Jaime killed the Mad King to save the thousands of lives that would have been lost if the wildfire cache had been lit as planned.

    I think pushing Bran out the window was the only overtly dishonorable thing he did in the books, and he felt he didn’t have much of a choice there.

    Besides, it seems like he could have just knocked him out – not sure why he felt he needed to beat him to death for this plan to work.The whole “guard – my fellow prisoner has fallen & can’t get up” bit is a pretty stable “escape from prison” cliche.

    A lot of commenters are complaining about this today, but it seems people are forgetting the amount of desperation Jaime had built up by that time. He’d been in that cell for at least weeks, maybe even months (timelines are ambiguous) and a person who’s used to hours of training a day and being actively involved in the world would get “stir crazy” or “cabin fever” or whatever you want to call it. He’s gone half mad from sitting there, no doubt enduring the taunts of the other soldiers and prisoners as well, and desperate to get out at whatever cost. Killing the cousin is what kept the scene from being cliche, showing his lack of concern for anybody but himself and Cersei.

  101. Dennis
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Rather than going with the assumption that an alive Alton would have been more helpful to Jaime..the way it was acted by NCW it appeared as if he was simply try to give Alton the idea that he truly remembered him for doing a good job as his squire. The undertone came across to me as if he actually did the opposite during that time, making him a potential liability rather than of benefit to Jaime. I will agree that this killing made Jaime appear as possibly more of an evil bastard than he truly is but it did play into his desperation as a prisoner. Let’s not forget that he has been tied to a pole since last season ;-)

  102. Lurkoff
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Are book purists building a new religion ala scientology? They are fiction books not holy tomes

  103. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair:
    chavalah,

    Mazal tov.But, didn’t Tevye forgive you in the end despite your marriage to Fyedka?Humm?!Talk about sidestepping the rules.;-)

    Speaking of book-to-tv media adaptations, that example fits in well with ASOIAF, hee. In the book, Chava decides on her own to abandon her marriage to Chvedka and come back to her Jewish family. In the movie, Tevye is softened (I guess he’s your Tywin-to-Arya? ;D) to come to accept the interfaith marriage in his own way. I’d definitely argue that the more forgiving natures of both Tevye and Tywin in the adaptations seem less realistic.

  104. Herschel
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Serevasix:
    Hmmm… The Jamie scene did not make sense. Killing Alton was simply… Dumb. (Maybe that was the point.) If Jamie’s goal in that scene was to attract the guard’s attention, there really was no reason to do what he did. If anything, he could have ‘pretended’ to kill alton and when the guard comes in, they could have jumped him together. They could have escaped together.

    Another idea is that maybe Jamie wanted to die. Maybe that was his goal. He probably knew that escape was futile so he probably wanted to get it over with and get executed. Even so, there was no point in killing his cousin. That really wouldn’t have made any difference.

    Yes and a seasoned veteran and war prisioner would clearly see the value of having a former squire and proven blood ally to facilitate his successful return to King’s Landing. He is deep behind enemy lines and would benefit having Alton watch his back during the attempted escape to Cersei ~ the boy’s loyalty to the family has been proven time and again so he was clearly an asset in this situation. Why would a Lanister kill a family member unless he were forced too? Particulary one who was in service of the family during a time of war and could aide in your escape and return to KL? Family name and pride seem to be ingrained values in all of them ~ “A Lanister always pays his debts”

  105. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Meg: Some things I would like clarified by more perceptive viewers than myself:Did Alton say he was a Lannister by marriage?Why did Jaime tell Catelyn about the incest?

    I was confused by this too, it sounded like his mother was the Lannister (like in the books, but more distantly related), but if that’s true he wouldn’t be a Lannister but whatever her husband was, right?

  106. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    LV: Whoever answered Larry’s question regarding Bran’s fate seems to be a douche… ;)

    Just about every single non-reader review I’ve read has figured it out anyway. It is pretty damn obvious, much more so than in the books (I suspected the truth when reading but still had to flip ahead to the point where I could make sure).

  107. oddlyotter
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Oh man the subreddit for Game of Thrones, those book readers have the non readers eating out of their hands! Kudos to them! They are all united on convincing them of the bran and rickon thing. It’s great and cracks me up.

    It’s similar to what Larrys friend must have been thinking too xD Why ruin the rage out? I threw my book when I read that chapter. Then went and skimmed the chapters to see if there was another Bran chapter.

  108. TheBull
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Mean25: Why would Sandor tell on Sansa?

    I’m confused by this as well. Anyone have any thoughts? He’s been protecting her all season by lying for her and killing for her. Why would he throw her to the lions, as it were? Even when he was making sure in that hallway scene that she wouldn’t see him in a good light, he still told her that he would stand between Joffrey and her.

  109. darrylzero
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Lurkoff,

    There’s some of this, but the knee-jerk “good I hope they change everything because Martin has lost control of his material” has gotten just as bad and in a weird way has even more of a holier than thou component. Can’t we all just dial it back a bit and talk about what we think works in each context without reflexively shitting all over one or the other? Probably not, but I don’t understand how anyone has more of that left in the tank. We’re past the midpoint of the second season for chrissakes.

  110. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    Interesting. Your avitar, though, is actress, Neva Small, from the movie. Ha! I never read the book. I saw the play in Boston (Theodore Bikel not Topol). It was quite a while ago so I don’t recall how the Chava thing played out.

    I think the general consensus is the give-and-take between Maisie and Charles Dance is top notch. I can’t agree that Tywin has been “softened” much. I cite Hibberd:

    Harrenhal: A nice shot of the grounds. With its medieval ruins and red Lannister banners the place looks a bit like a wrecked Castle Wolfenstein. Men are being tortured and executed as Tywin looks down from his tower looking like a vampire king. …
    We’re treated to another excellent scene between Tywin and Arya. All those who mourn changes from George R.R. Martin’s novels, I can’t imagine there’s many of you who don’t love this pairing.

  111. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    I’m quite aware of who my avatar is. :P And I enjoy the Fiddler on the Roof adaptation, similar to how I enjoy the Game of Thrones adaptation. I just don’t think either one is perfect.

    Tywin has certainly been “softened” when it concerns Arya; he keeps her and her precocious attitude around against his better judgement, as Alyssa Rosenberg suggests in her review. Yup, I saw him OKing the torture and killings of his own men to ascertain where the poison dart came from. I’m just having trouble understanding why he wouldn’t even stop to consider that the cupbearer he assumed to be a northern noble girl in disguise may have something to do with it. At the very least, she should be questioned.

  112. oddlyotter
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Probably because if she wanted to kill him that badly, she wouldn’t use a dart randomly, she’d just do it when he’s got his back turned to her when she’s doing her duties around him. Or poison him, or whatever. He has reason to suspect her of being noble but not reason to suspect her of sacrificing her life to kill him.

  113. SugarVampire
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    As I said before, D&D have a philosophical difference take on some of the characters than GRRM.

    In GRRM’s version of Jaime, he was an idealistic young man who wanted to be a hero in the storybooks (his idol is Sword in the Morning) but somehow frustrated, corrupted and ruined by others’ machination. (Aery II, Cercei, Tywin). I think that’s reason why his redemption in Book 3 is more believable and accepted by many readers. That’s why his actions in Book 3 and 4 made sense.

    In D&D’s interview above and epidode 7, they see and portray him as more a bloodlusting, calculated killer/fighter (admiring an artist who painted in red) who doesn’t have a moral center except only caring for his need. I know this is a way of a dramatic buildup for the contrast in next season’s story arc. However, imho, this expediency will make Jaime’s more honorable actions in Book 3 and 4 a lot less convincing.

    Similarly the way they handled Jon’s and Dany’s characterisation in this season are more a dramatic effect on a week to week basis instead of a subtle consistency over the entire series.

    We love ASoIaF for their charcters, not just their shocking cliffhangers and their plots. GoT is still good TV. D&D have made a very entertaining show. There are still lots of great characters and great performances of ASoIaF in it.

    But please ask yourself, do you still like or identify with Jon or Dany based on this season’s portrayal? (Jon, Dany and Tyrion are supposingly the big 3 with Arya and Sansa closely behind as fan favorites) Are those changes really a necessary budgetary or screen time decisions? Is Dany’s supposingly more screentime that much more compelling, it worths the weakening of her inner core (a whining, foolish, entitled noble woman than a wise, gentle but not yet assertive young queen)? Or the bumbling, fumbling Jon just a young eager fool not fitted for the cynical world in the screen and the real world instead of a tortured soul who worked hard to keep faith and honor despite the most trying circumstances hence worthy of sympathy and adolation for readers/viewers who are hungry for heroism and decency.

    I am not a book purist. Characters need to be cut, scenes need to be changed/added. But the different characterisation of main actors deserve some sort of scrutiny to say the least.

    Peace.

  114. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: I’m just having trouble understanding why he wouldn’t even stop to consider that the cupbearer he assumed to be a northern noble girl in disguise may have something to do with it. At the very least, she should be questioned.

    That’s how I read Tywin making Arya eat his dinner. It was his way of testing to see if she would consider poisoning him. Also makes sure she doesn’t get any ideas, because you never know when Tywin will force you to eat his dinner.

  115. Steve
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    LV: No. Because the text says so.

    Then you need to reread the text because it doesnt say any of that. Jaime wasn’t protecting “his” kids when he pushed Bran out of a window. He didn’t care about his kids at all, in fact he never looked at them as his. He was protecting himself and Cersei, and his illegal activity.

    As for protecting Cersei, that’s a reason but it’s not a justification. Let’s not forget, if he didn’t put himself or her in that compromising position in the first place, then there wouldnt’ have been a need to try to kill Bran. His choices led him there, and killing was the only way he knew how to deal with it.

    His actions basically started the entire war. If he never had an affair with Cersei, then he wouldn’t have had to push Bran out of a window, which meant that Littlefinger wouldn’t have been able to manipulate the situation by having Catelyn and NEd think that the Lannisters sent the hired knife after Bran. This means that Catelyn would never have taken Tyrion hostage on the Kingsroad.

  116. Arristan the Old
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Heh, “Xoan” might not have an H in it, but the character’s actual middle name, “Xhoan,” does. Still, if he pronounced that H it was probably wrong. Didn’t catch that slip in the episode but I am guessing it was more like “Xohan”?

    Anyhow, the show hasn’t gone into details about how bad kinslaying is considered to be in Westeros like GRRM does in the books, where the kinslayer is cursed by gods and men alike, so I can live with show Jaime killing Alton. But I do think book Jaime would draw the line short of slaying a relative, even a distant one he barely recognizes, even if he really thought he’s win his freedom by doing so. Heck, even if it was Cleos Frey, for whom Jaime had nothing but contempt. Just my opinion though.

  117. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    oddlyotter: Probably because if she wanted to kill him that badly, she wouldn’t use a dart randomly, she’d just do it when he’s got his back turned to her when she’s doing her duties around him. Or poison him, or whatever. He has reason to suspect her of being noble but not reason to suspect her of sacrificing her life to kill him.

    And throwing a knife into his neck while they went about their duties wouldn’t be putting her life on the line? For all she knew one of his bannermen might come in while she was taking aim. A cupbearer bearing poisoned food or drink seems obvious, too. There’s no way she can escape Harrenhal on her own, at least not realistically. And she would have a very good reason to want to kill Tywin if she’s a noble nornerner. If that’s the case there’s a pretty big chance that she has brothers, uncles, cousins, etc. fighting his men right now.

    Besides, even if it’s a long shot it seems like sound strategy to question the people around you who don’t quite fit the mold.

  118. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: That’s how I read Tywin making Arya eat his dinner. It was his way of testing to see if she would consider poisoning him. Also makes sure she doesn’t get any ideas, because you never know when Tywin will force you to eat his dinner.

    A good test, but still it seems pretty incomplete, especially since he’s aware of how she’s “too smart for [her] own good.”

  119. Awenger
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    @winter:
    can this also be included in the list? It s too funny…
    http://www.bestweekever.tv/2012-05-14/game-of-thrones-recap-a-man-without-honor/

  120. Doug
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    He was in character in every way shape and form.

  121. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: A good test, but still it seems pretty incomplete, especially since he’s aware of how she’s “too smart for [her] own good.”

    It was made clear in the opening of the scene Tywin knows it was an expert assassin by the poison used. I think there is a big gap between a young girl being “too smart for [her] own good” and being an expert assassin. He is being cautious, but I don’t see him jumping to that conclusion.

  122. unrobb
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Awful. Absolutely awful.

    It very much IS against character for Jaime to do what he did. The fact that people are actually defending the writers on this one is sickening.

    I understand changes need to be made for adaptation purposes, but this episode was several steps too far. It almost seems like DnD think they can rewrite the series and make it better–and they’re failing spectacularly. GRRM had some flaws, but adding Ros sexposition scenes, making Jeyne a “strong independent woman who doesn’t need no King in the North” , and turning one of the most deeply complex characters in the books (Jaime) and turning him into a kinslaying nutjob are beyond the pale.

    Have I dropped it yet? No, but I’m getting close. I will see where this season ends.

  123. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    “Tywin, himself, is a man of principle. .. I don’t see him as a bad guy. … Compared to a lot of other people in this story, he’s quite a good guy.”
    – Charles Dance, Thronecast interview (spoilers).

    I don’t think there’s any doubt that Charels Dance sees Tywin differently than we see him portrayed in the books. Tywin, of course, is not a POV character, so we only know him in the books through the eyes the POV characters — mainly his children and his enemies.

    I think Tywin would see himself this way. Bad guys seldom see themselves as bad guys. He’s definitely onto something with Arya. We’ll have to see.

    chavalah: it seems pretty incomplete

    True. Two, nay, three more episodes and then Season 3.

  124. Doug
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    The changes to Jaime aren’t really changes…. He’s always been this way and has not changed at all as of yet. Will he? I guess we will have to see.

  125. oddlyotter
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    …. You just explained what I said. Good job xD

    She hasn’t actually done anything that would get guards attention if they popped in. She was holding a knife while eating mutton and looking at Tywin as he talked. Oooooo sooo incriminating.

  126. Eor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Mean25: Beacause it’s good TV,just not a good adaptation. I can still enjoy it but I dislike when they call it an adaptation.

    I don’t think you know what adaption means

    unrobb:
    Awful.Absolutely awful.

    It very much IS against character for Jaime to do what he did.The fact that people are actually defending the writers on this one is sickening.

    I understand changes need to be made for adaptation purposes, but this episode was several steps too far.It almost seems like DnD think they can rewrite the series and make it better–and they’re failing spectacularly.GRRM had some flaws, but adding Ros sexposition scenes, making Jeyne a “strong independent woman who doesn’t need no King in the North” , and turning one of the most deeply complex characters in the books (Jaime) and turning him into a kinslaying nutjob are beyond the pale.

    Have I dropped it yet?No, but I’m getting close.I will see where this season ends.

    I don’t think you remember book 1-2 Jaimie. I find the same when people complain about the way Stannis acts this season. If you would re-read the second book, you see that Stannis is basically only concerned with winning the iron throne and nothing else, it’s only later when he realizes he’s shirking his duties by trying to become king instead of being a king. Same with Jaimie, we’ve already seen how no oaths really hold to him, or moral ideas, so why is everyone claiming he’d never violate the kinslaying laws? The stigma on kinslaying is practically the same as the stigma on breaking guest rights,and at what point would you think Jaimie would allow an opportunity to pass just because they had bread and salt under his roof? Why would he let his only chance to escape slip by just because this useless star-struck boy happens to be some distant relative? Jaimie doesn’t even know the guy and only remembers his mother as being “the fat one”, kinslayer would just be another title for them to add.

  127. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    darrylzero:
    Lurkoff,

    There’s some of this, but the knee-jerk “good I hope they change everything because Martin has lost control of his material” has gotten just as bad and in a weird way has even more of a holier than thou component.Can’t we all just dial it back a bit and talk about what we think works in each context without reflexively shitting all over one or the other?Probably not, but I don’t understand how anyone has more of that left in the tank.We’re past the midpoint of the second season for chrissakes.

    Welcome to the internet. Where everyone who has spent ten minutes on TV tropes or has written fan fic thinks they are much more qualified to tell the story than the person whose story it is.

    These discussions would all be a lot better if people phrased things with “I liked” and “I didn’t like” rather than “He made a mistake” or citing amateur film school terminology.

    I suppose I am as guilty as any at times, but at least I try to see the professionals’ (HBO, Martin) POV and assume they know what they are doing rather than always assume they are idiots.

  128. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Todd VanDerWerff of AV Club seems to think that the outcome of Catelyn asking for Brienne’s sword at the end of the Jaime scene is the Kingslayer losing his hand. I’m not sure how I would feel about that particular change, if his speculation proved true. I’m very likely to hate it.
    I personally doubt that they would have her be that ruthless. It would be completely incongruous with the character as they’ve written her for 2 season.

  129. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    SugarVampire:
    As I said before, D&D have a philosophical difference take on some of the characters than GRRM.

    In GRRM’s version of Jaime, he was an idealistic young man who wanted to be a hero in the storybooks (his idol is Sword in the Morning) but somehow frustrated, corrupted and ruined by others’ machination. (Aery II, Cercei, Tywin).I think that’s reason why his redemption in Book 3 is more believable and accepted by many readers.That’s why his actions in Book 3 and 4 made sense.

    In D&D’s interview above and epidode 7, they see and portray him as more a bloodlusting, calculated killer/fighter (admiring an artist who painted in red) who doesn’t have a moral center except only caring for his need. I know this is a way of a dramatic buildup for the contrast in next season’s story arc.However, imho, this expediency will make Jaime’s more honorable actions in Book 3 and 4 a lot less convincing.

    Similarly the way they handled Jon’s and Dany’s characterisation in this season are more a dramatic effect on a week to week basis instead of a subtle consistency over the entire series.

    We love ASoIaF for their charcters, not just their shocking cliffhangers and their plots.GoT is still good TV.D&D have made a very entertaining show. There are still lots of great characters and great performances of ASoIaF in it.

    But please ask yourself, do you still like or identify with Jon or Dany based on this season’s portrayal? (Jon, Dany and Tyrion are supposingly the big 3 with Arya and Sansa closely behind as fan favorites)Are those changes really a necessary budgetary or screen time decisions?Is Dany’s supposingly more screentime that much more compelling, it worths the weakening of her inner core (a whining, foolish, entitled noble woman than a wise, gentle but not yet assertive young queen)? Or the bumbling, fumbling Jon just a young eager fool not fitted for the cynical world in the screen and the real world instead of a tortured soul who worked hard to keep faith and honor despite the most trying circumstances hence worthy of sympathy and adolation for readers/viewers who are hungry for heroism and decency.

    I am not a book purist. Characters need to be cut, scenes need to be changed/added. But the different characterisation of main actors deserve some sort of scrutiny to say the least.

    Peace.

    I am actually preferring Jon and Dany much more at this point then I did their book counterparts.

  130. ravens20
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I think people are falling into the trap of expecting the characterizations of people as they end are at the end of A Dance with Dragons, as opposed to where they might have been at this point. This happens often in people’s complaint about Cersei – she doesn’t really go off the deep end until the fourth book so expecting her to do that now isn’t reasonable. Jaime isn’t even a POV character at this point in the books. For all we know he could have been capable of this. More importantly it doesn’t make a difference in the long run. For now we are reminded of what a dangerous man he is, making what is to come, and the characterization we are all looking forward to, all the more sweet. And it made for excellent TV (being widely lauded as the best scene of the series by non-bookreader critics).

  131. ghost
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    I think all the changes from the books have been positive so far.

    I just hope hope they can tie up all the loose strings, which I’m confident they will.

    I figured out why TB is beating GOT and it’s because GOT is the most pirated series this year. Damn u cheap ass people.

  132. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    SugarVampire:
    As I said before, D&D have a philosophical difference take on some of the characters than GRRM.

    In GRRM’s version of Jaime, he was an idealistic young man who wanted to be a hero in the storybooks (his idol is Sword in the Morning) but somehow frustrated, corrupted and ruined by others’ machination. (Aery II, Cercei, Tywin).I think that’s reason why his redemption in Book 3 is more believable and accepted by many readers.That’s why his actions in Book 3 and 4 made sense.

    In D&D’s interview above and epidode 7, they see and portray him as more a bloodlusting, calculated killer/fighter (admiring an artist who painted in red) who doesn’t have a moral center except only caring for his need. I know this is a way of a dramatic buildup for the contrast in next season’s story arc.However, imho, this expediency will make Jaime’s more honorable actions in Book 3 and 4 a lot less convincing.

    Similarly the way they handled Jon’s and Dany’s characterisation in this season are more a dramatic effect on a week to week basis instead of a subtle consistency over the entire series.

    We love ASoIaF for their charcters, not just their shocking cliffhangers and their plots.GoT is still good TV.D&D have made a very entertaining show. There are still lots of great characters and great performances of ASoIaF in it.

    But please ask yourself, do you still like or identify with Jon or Dany based on this season’s portrayal? (Jon, Dany and Tyrion are supposingly the big 3 with Arya and Sansa closely behind as fan favorites)Are those changes really a necessary budgetary or screen time decisions?Is Dany’s supposingly more screentime that much more compelling, it worths the weakening of her inner core (a whining, foolish, entitled noble woman than a wise, gentle but not yet assertive young queen)? Or the bumbling, fumbling Jon just a young eager fool not fitted for the cynical world in the screen and the real world instead of a tortured soul who worked hard to keep faith and honor despite the most trying circumstances hence worthy of sympathy and adolation for readers/viewers who are hungry for heroism and decency.

    I am not a book purist. Characters need to be cut, scenes need to be changed/added. But the different characterisation of main actors deserve some sort of scrutiny to say the least.

    Peace.

    Do you really take Jaime’s perception of himself as canon of who Jaime is?

    Martin has repeatedly commented on the unreliable narrator, and nowhere is that more consistently present than in a POV character’s perception of themselves.

    I think most of you are giving Martin less credit than he deserves. Jaime may have always wanted to be a hero — and I’m sure these teenage dreams will come in the show as well in due time (Jaime wasn’t even a POV at this point!), but when Jaime is giving his mental reasons for his actions, it’s his Point of View. Rationalizations, changed memories, they all abound. Few people are truly honest with themselves.

    I don’t find this Jaime very different than book Jaime. There’s nothing precluding those lost dreams. He still parrots his claims of having killed Aerys for the realm, but it’s not that simple. I think in one of the books he even goes into how it wasn’t that pure of a motivation.

    He killed his king. He threw a little boy out the window. He draws his sword as a solution to pretty much everything. He’s jaded. On some unconscious level I think he knows Cersei does not love him as much as he loves her — she will not declare him. He does not know his own children. He’s best at fighting and there hasn’t been a real one in years.

    The book Jaime is a shallow, impetuous man that cares for Tyrion, but also lets his wife get raped to avoid getting angry with his father. He cares for Cersei, but he’s never made a real effort to be a father — or even an uncle — to any of his children.

    Just because, in his own head, he makes up rationalizations and once had a dream doesn’t make him this incredible man of the code. He doesn’t think about anything. About whether his actions are wrong or right. He took a job where he takes orders.

    Give Martin credit — it’s not an omniscient narrator. And in picking on this stupid kinslayer/non-kinslayer standpoint, you really missed the point of the scene: Jaime Lannister is a sword, and that’s all he thinks he’s worth right now.

  133. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Remaal: I’m not sure how I would feel about that particular change, if his speculation proved true. I’m very likely to hate it.

    I will defend many changes, but I would cry foul if that actually happened.How could Cat expect her girls unharmed if she goes and does that?

  134. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: It was made clear in the opening of the scene Tywin knows it was an expert assassin by the poison used. I think there is a big gap between a young girl being “too smart for [her] own good” and being an expert assassin. He is being cautious, but I don’t see him jumping to that conclusion.

    oddlyotter: She hasn’t actually done anything that would get guards attention if they popped in. She was holding a knife while eating mutton and looking at Tywin as he talked. Oooooo sooo incriminating.

    Even if she’s not the assassin, she could have played a part in what happened, like telling the assassin of Tywin’s whereabouts. She’s certainly more privy to that information than most. It doesn’t have to be as simple as Arya being the one culprit, similar to the truth where she and Jaqen are working together.

    Mike Chair,

    My issue isn’t about whether I see Tywin as a “bad” guy or a “good” guy. My issue is whether or not he is truly as efficient a war general as everyone so far says he is. Frankly, letting Arya continue to run free and unquestioned when at best she’s likely worth a ransom and at worst she’s an enemy seems rather short-sighted for someone of his supposed acumen. Suddenly Robb’s victories in show are making a lot more sense to me.

  135. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: I will defend many changes, but I would cry foul if that actually happened.How could Cat expect her girls unharmed if she goes and does that?

    The show ended pretty much exactly how that scene ended in the book — so I suspect that the reviewer is forgetting that and projecting.

    I suspect this part to go exactly as the book does. Could be wrong. The temptation could be there to cut out some characters.

  136. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    chavalah:
    Even if she’s not the assassin, she could have played a part in what happened, like telling the assassin of Tywin’s whereabouts.She’s certainly more privy to that information than most.It doesn’t have to be as simple as Arya being the one culprit, similar to the truth where she and Jaqen are working together.

    Mike Chair,

    My issue isn’t about whether I see Tywin as a “bad” guy or a “good” guy.My issue is whether or not he is truly as efficient a war general as everyone so far says he is.Frankly, letting Arya continue to run free and unquestioned when at best she’s likely worth a ransom and at worst she’s an enemy seems rather short-sighted for someone of his supposed acumen.Suddenly Robb’s victories in show are making a lot more sense to me.

    It seems to me that most people are angry that Tywin is not one-dimensional.

    Honestly, where is Arya going?

  137. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: Even if she’s not the assassin, she could have played a part in what happened…like telling the assassin of Tywin’s whereabouts. It doesn’t have to be as simple as Arya being the one culprit, similar to the truth, where she and Jaqen are working together.

    The whole camp knows Tywin’s whereabouts. It’s not like he was in a secret room only a handful of people knew about. That whole scene was Tywin testing Arya. It wasn’t an accident that Tywin turned his back to her knowing she held a knife. He made her eat the meal she planned to serve to him. With as guarded as she is, he knows he would get nothing out of asking her a direct question.

  138. paylor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Alan: And in picking on this stupid kinslayer/non-kinslayer standpoint, you really missed the point of the scene: Jaime Lannister is a sword, and that’s all he thinks he’s worth right now.

    That was perfect, and absolutely what I took from that scene.

  139. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: The whole camp knows Tywin’s whereabouts. It’s not like he was in a secret room only a handful of people knew about.

    But Arya, so far, is near-constantly by his side. She knows when he’s alone and she knows when he’s with company. This information would be useful for the assassination attempt.

    I get that making her eat the meal was the “interrogation” for whether or not she poisoned him. But it still doesn’t address the broader issue of the attempt on his life that he thinks he’s dealing with. What I took from that scene is that Arya wasn’t very cowed by his test. She kept getting bolder.

    Alan: It seems to me that most people are angry that Tywin is not one-dimensional.

    Honestly, where is Arya going?

    Do you mean her storyline or physically, as in can she escape? Personally I don’t think the latter is the issue now that Tywin suspects her of being a noble. The issue is what will he do with this very useful information.

  140. Rob
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    We shall see

  141. sjwenings
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    It’s easy just saying “killing a relative isn’t much worse than killing a boy” But the choice he made in this ep is just very different from the previous ones.

    Jaime had a choice between killing an innocent boy, and running a high risk of getting himself and his beloved sister executed.

    Between killing a mad cruel king, and possibly allow KL to be destroyed.

    Between killing a relative for a pretty slim chance of escape, and staying in his cage, possibly getting killed himself?

    The last choice he made was just plain selfish, and not even with that certain a reward. I don’t see how this wasn’t far worse.

  142. SugarVampire
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Give Martin credit — it’s not an omniscient narrator. And in picking on this stupid kinslayer/non-kinslayer standpoint, you really missed the point of the scene: Jaime Lannister is a sword, and that’s all he thinks he’s worth right now.

    I didn’t raise the kinslayer/non-kinslayer argument in my post. My beef is different. Since the argument will involve things in future seasons, no point in stating them again right now.

    On a positive note, I hope D&D have a great plan in place for Jon and Dany soon, especially Dany. Not that I am a fan of Dany, but since big changes are needed in adaptation of her story in future seasons, I hope they will accentuate her positive qualities soon instead of letting her struggles/drama make her a more hated/despised PoVs than she already is.

  143. Alan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    In that context, I mean that Tywin is probably of the idea that Arya has no ability to escape. He can toy with her; she isn’t going anywhere.

    I imagine the storyline is going exactly where it is going in the books.

  144. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    James Poniewozik of Time, supra:

    Take Arya and Tywin. Jesus, I would watch Arya and Tywin talk for an entire episode. I would love a bottle episode that was nothing but Tywin and Arya getting locked in a storeroom in Harrenhal and discussing Westeros history. Instead, we had to settle for one of the most deliciously sparring exchanges of the series, as Tywin tested the idea that Arya was posing as a commoner.

    Tywin may suspect Arya–and if her thinks she’s a Northern noble girl, then he must suspect she hates him–but he’s starved for intelligent conversation. (“Most girls are interested in the pretty maidens from the songs.” “Most girls are idiots.”) And Arya–maybe knowing she was giving too much away but unable to resist–gives voice to her feelings, which is one way this prisoner of war can exercise her freedom. Within bounds: “I can’t say I’ve met a literate stonemason.” “Have you met many stonemasons, my lord?” “Careful now, girl. I enjoy you, but be careful.”

  145. davidjones2492
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Is there anyone else who thinks that Jon’s capture by the wildings will later be revealed to be part of Qhorin’s plan.

    I can imagine a brief flashback at the end of the season following Qhorin’s death where he is seen to order Jon to allow himself to get captured and infiltrate the wildings.

  146. Remaal
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: I will defend many changes, but I would cry foul if that actually happened.How could Cat expect her girls unharmed if she goes and does that?

    Indeed, good point. One more reason to believe his prediction is wrong. But, you know… one can never be sure. We’ll see next week.

  147. Restore The Day
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    One thing that nobody comments on yet is so important: WHAT HAPPENED TO SER DONTOS THE FOOL?

  148. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings: It’s easy just saying “killing a relative isn’t much worse than killing a boy” But the choice he made in this ep is just very different from the previous ones.Jaime had a choice between killing an innocent boy, and running a high risk of getting himself and his beloved sister executed.Between killing a mad cruel king, and possibly allow KL to be destroyed.Between killing a relative for a pretty slim chance of escape, and staying in his cage, possibly getting killed himself?The last choice he made was just plain selfish, and not even with that certain a reward. I don’t see how this wasn’t far worse.

    My guess is from his perspective this was no different than, say, Robb ordering 2000 men to their deaths as a diversionary tactic. The fact that Jaime is the one doing the direct dispatching is irrelevant, it’s the mission that matters, and the mission is getting himself free by any means necessary, even by a noble (if involuntary) sacrifice by a distant cousin.

  149. Dave
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Yes, Jaime pushing Bran out the window was act of desperation because he thought he can save himself and Cersei. I can somewhat see why he did it, because if Bran tells both their heads are off. But killing Alton just to get the guard’s attention, that was a dumb plan, maybe the whole “Help! Guard! I’m sick!” plan is overused in tv and movies, so that’s why D&D went with that. The guard is more dumber though, seeing as he got close enough to Alton to be at arm’s length to Jaime. I mean did the guard forget there’s two prisoners? Dumb plan by Jaime, but it worked… well, just getting out of the cage anyway.

    Restore The Day,
    He’s getting out of his Captain America costume to put on his Iron Man suit. But seriously, I hope we see him soon, as he was already taken out of one of his major scenes a few episodes ago.

    Larry’s friend trolling him hard. LOL. I admit I also do that to my friends who haven’t read the books. Not to be cruel, okay a little bit, but I want them to find out themselves than me telling them.

  150. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: I get that making her eat the meal was the “interrogation” for whether or not she poisoned him. But it still doesn’t address the broader issue of the attempt on his life that he thinks he’s dealing with. What I took from that scene is that Arya wasn’t very cowed by his test. She kept getting bolder.

    He was also inviting her to use the knife if she had plans on hurting him. If she had tried to strike he would have tossed her out the window. It wasn’t her boldness that was important, it was her resistance to follow through that Arya wasn’t discovered. She past the test by not striking.

  151. funlight
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    My guess about Qhorin: Qhorin is also caught by the wildlings, and they are being taken somewhere in ropes when Qhorin tells Jon to attack him.

  152. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Restore The Day: One thing that nobody comments on yet is so important: WHAT HAPPENED TO SER DONTOS THE FOOL?

    You need Littlefinger back before Dontos makes his move.

    Unfortunately there just were not any scenes where a fool would be present. We may see him in Episode 9.

  153. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    There was NO fucking need to kill Alton…just tell him to play dead!!! WTF was that!!!

    And what the fuck was all that in Qarth…had to facepalm all the way through it…if there was a chance of a coup it would had happened long before…no way those guys would sit there without protection…King of Qarth?? ouch ouch ouch..

    Clearly this Talisa chick is a spy that wants to have acces to the Maester ravens, to send a message to Tywin…wtf is this Matahari shit..and why change the reasons Cat sends Jaime away??? why!

    Also hated the new Clegane, and the Hound ratting Sansa out.

    And why so much foreshadowin with the farm boys?? if you do it do it right!!!

    And finally if theres no Jon vs Qhorin, I’ll be extremely extremely dissapointed

    Overall I hated the episode…argh!!

    I never expected they would go the “changes for the sake of changes” route :(

  154. Eor
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    Restore The Day: king, and possibly allow KL to be destroyed.Between killing a relative for a pretty slim chance of escape, and staying in his cage, possibly getting killed himself?The last choice he made was just plain selfish, and not even with that certain a reward. I don’t see how this wasn’t far worse.

    Dave:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Yes, Jaime pushing Bran out the window was act of desperation because he thought he can save himself and Cersei. I can somewhat see why he did it, because if Bran tells both their heads are off. But killing Alton just to get the guard’s attention, that was a dumb plan, maybe the whole “Help! Guard! I’m sick!” plan is overused in tv and movies, so that’s why D&D went with that. The guard is more dumber though, seeing as he got close enough to Alton to be at arm’s length to Jaime. I mean did the guard forget there’s two prisoners? Dumb plan by Jaime, but it worked… well, just getting out of the cage anyway.

    Jaimie was playing dead. The plan was to act like someone killed them, the idea being the last person the guard would expect to kill a Lannister would be another Lannister

  155. davidjones2492
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    I’ve got to say that I’ve had enough of the over-precious and pedantic book fans on sites like this and Westeros.org who constantly complain about what are generally very trivial divergances from the book. Seriously, I read the reviews on Westeros and its as if they are watching the worst TV show on air, rather than one of the most critically trumped. On this thread alone there are those who are threatening to abandon the show because they have “changed” the character of Jamie, or Jon, or Danerys. Or omitted a minor plot detail.

    Seriously, while some small details to the plot arcs have been introduced for these three the core of their stories is the same. Jon’s book 2 arc is slight, the show has expanded his relationship with Ygritte to make her defence of him more credible when he goes over to the wildings. Dany’s book 2 arc is even more slight, all she basically does is go to the Houses of the Undying. The show has attempted to preserve her status as a central character and add drama by expanding on the Qarthian shennanigans. Jamie hardly features in either the book or in the show at all. (His position as a largely amoral character therefore needed to be re-introduced for show watchers who haven’t seen him for 6 episodes). In the book he also tries to escape and there are several deaths as a result. There have been no significant changes for any of these 3, they will all be where they are suppossed to be at the end.

    For me, in all three cases the character arcs on screen are the same as in the book. Dany is a young queen who comes to terms with the fact that she has little or no power herself, but cannot rely on others. Jon is a decent but naive boy, who still doesn’t fully understand the nature of the wildings or the demands of his oaths. Jamie is a callous killer who only cares about two people other than himself and is yet to begin his character progression. This is why I have no problems with the TV show at all, the important aspects of the characters are generally recognised and portrayed.

    Of course these are just my interpretations of these characters; we will all get different impressions of them when we read the books. However many book pedants seem to think that their own takes on the source material are definitive, and that somehow the show writers couldn’t possibly have a deeper understanding of things (even though they are working with the author). By doing so they complain incessantly about the absence of trivial details (Renly’s Peach for God’s sake!), ignore the multiple triumphs of the show and suck the joy out of viewing for as many people as possible.

    When you watch Lord of the Rings for the first time you may be surprised that the Moria sequence is different to the book. However ultimately this has no bearing on the story, at the end of it all the charcters are where they are supposed to be and Gandalf fell down the chasm. The point is, in a good adaptation the spirit of the source material and the key plot aspects need to be preserved, smaller details and characters can be changed or omitted. Like LOTR, Game of Thrones is a fantastic adaptation, the writers have earned credit and it would be wise to show them some trust instead of whining about trivialities.

  156. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    I get that most of fandom is having a “fan-gasm” over Tywin and Arya. :P I feel the same way whenever Cat and Robb have a scene together (even when I disagree with aspects of the adaptation); they’re still my favorite relationship. And I’ve really been enjoying Tywin and Arya myself for most of the season. I enjoyed parts of their conversation last night.

    Even buying the idea that absolutely none of his bannermen had the academic acumen of an 11-year-old girl in order to carry on an intelligent conversation if Tywin wished it, there’s still the issue that so far he’s blatantly ignoring that she’s either an asset for a ransom, and possibly a bigger threat than someone who might just try to poison his food. (And yes, Arya is unusually precocious for her gender, but I actually think her fangirling of Visenya Targaryen is pretty similar to Sansa fangirling the idea of chivalric knights, but that may be going off on a tangent.) I just don’t see Tywin enjoying Arya’s company as superseding the logical courses of action when dealing with someone who might be an enemy, or have family who is an enemy. In theory, he could very well wring her for a ransom and then keep her around as his amusing cupbearer while they negotiated, similar to how Sansa has partial freedom in King’s Landing.

    I really do love this line for Arya: “maybe knowing she was giving too much away but unable to resist–gives voice to her feelings, which is one way this prisoner of war can exercise her freedom.” I think it describes her very well (though it makes me want to put a hand over her mouth. :P) It reminds me of Sansa, too–granted, she’s more cautious than Arya (and Joffrey is more unhinged than Tywin,) but she, too, gets her jabs in at him from time to time; “I saw you cry,” she told him last week when he was harassing Tommen. By putting Arya with Tywin they’ve definitely made her situation far more akin to Sansa’s than it was in the books.

  157. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Virtus: The thing is that Jaime didn’t need to kill Alton. Telling him to play dead in order to attract the guard’s attention would have served exactly the same purpose. Having Jaime kill Alton instead just makes him seem like a sociopath, which he never was. He might have been an amoral egoist at this point of the story, but he always justified his actions to himself as serving a greater good (good of the city’s people in the case of Aerys, protection of Cersei and their children in the case of Bran). He didn’t just kill for fun.

    This this this this!!!

  158. Dave
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Eor:
    Jaimie was playing dead. The plan was to act like someone killed them, the idea being the last person the guard would expect to kill a Lannister would be another Lannister

    Oh, I can see why he needs to kill Alton. I suppose you need to look authentic than playing dead to fool the guard… I think. Still, both prisoners dead drop all the sudden, nothing funny about that, I should get my face really close to them.

    Btw, before gets all mad and accuse me of being a purists, I liked the majority of the changes like with Dany this season, I remember that her chapters in ACok were the weakest part of the book, imo. I liked the changes, doesn’t mean I should like them all.

  159. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: There was NO fucking need to kill Alton…just tell him to play dead!!! WTF was that!!!And what the fuck was all that in Qarth…had to facepalm all the way through it…if there was a chance of a coup it would had happened long before…no way those guys would sit there without protection…King of Qarth?? ouch ouch ouch..Clearly this Talisa chick is a spy that wants to have acces to the Maester ravens, to send a message to Tywin…wtf is this Matahari shit..and why change the reasons Cat sends Jaime away??? why!Also hated the new Clegane, and the Hound ratting Sansa out.And why so much foreshadowin with the farm boys?? if you do it do it right!!!And finally if theres no Jon vs Qhorin, I’ll be extremely extremely dissapointedOverall I hated the episode…argh!!I never expected they would go the “changes for the sake of changes” route :(

    Regarding Alton, it wasn’t him “playing dead” that caught the guard’s attention as I recall, but the sounds of somebody being bludgeoned to death.

    And regardless, do you really think Jaime’s going to trust to his pathetic little cousin to play along with a plan correctly?

    If I miss anything about this scene it’s Tyrion’s escape plan, but I suppose we couldn’t have that without Riverrun.

    And the reason the coup never happened before in Qarth is precisely because of the presence of the dragons. And although they haven’t said anything yet, I’m wondering if previously all the warlocks could do was indeed parlor tricks, but the birth of the dragons led to a rebirth of their magic (even a scene like in the books with the pyromancer wondering about dragons would suffice in this regard).

    I’m guessing the reason they went with the “King of Qarth” thing is just to send the general theme of too many kings this season over the edge. Xaro’s speech implied he’d gotten the idea from Westeros (something about learning things from the outside world).

    I’m not totally convinced with the Qarth scenes but if they’d stuck with the books it would’ve been boring as shit. And I like the general weirdass vibe there, particularly with Pyat Pree, I got a real “Rosemary’s Baby” vibe from that scene (the very end to be specific, with Mia Farrow’s character accepting her role as the mother of Satan’s baby).

    And honestly, I see no evidence that they’re making “changes for the sake of changes”. You can disagree that their changes improve the storyline, but from my perspective all the changes are part of their goal to fit the general thrust of the books into not-enough-episodes produced with not-enough-money, while simultaneously entertaining the shit out of the audience.

  160. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Jaime didn’t have shove a little boy out of a window either, but he did it. How cruel must you be to throw someone to their death? At the very least he could of killed the boy in a quick, less soul wrenching manner, but he didn’t even do that.

    But lets continue to try and romanticism Jaime. The sister shagging attempted child murder. Oh but he lost his hand and hangs out with the tall ugly woman. He is so lovable.

  161. From Chaos
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    The Jamie fans might even be crazier then the Sansa and Brienne fans in regards to storyline tampering :)

    Its fun watching people lose it over their favorites while I get to enjoy the show that is still hitting about 95% of major plot points. Love the books, love the show.

  162. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I also love the idea of “playing dead”. You know why it was convincing enough for the guard to open the door? Because the kid was dead.

  163. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: He was also inviting her to use the knife if she had plans on hurting him. If she had tried to strike he would have tossed her out the window. It wasn’t her boldness that was important, it was her resistance to follow through that Arya wasn’t discovered. She past the test by not striking.

    And there’s no way that Arya might be in cahoots with someone else in the castle? That maybe instead of risking her own life in the moment she might be working with others? (There were plenty of prisoners, after all.) This test still strikes me as single-pronged.

  164. Dave
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Hurray! Let’s demonize those that didn’t like 100% in the show!

    Scholesy
    Because some noises and Alton laying face down is enough for the guard to open the cage. Oh those guards, you can never fool them unless it’s genuine.

  165. Jack Slap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    I like westeros.org. Its a great site and their breakdown of the show versus each book chapter is terrific. But man can their review of the show get brutal. Holy hell it really feels like I am watching a different show than they are. I consider myself a book nut. But I absolutely love the show so far. I honestly think it is the best show on TV. Westeros is just a bit too extreme with the scrutiny. Shit we only get 10 episodes a season and then we are done for another 10 months! Enjoy the ride cause it will be over waaayyy too soon.

  166. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Dave:
    Hurray! Let’s demonize those that didn’t like 100% in the show!

    Scholesy
    Because some noises and Alton laying face down is enough for the guard to open the cage. Oh those guards, you can never fool them unless it’s genuine.

    Why would that be enough? Was Alton some trained actor or someone with a will of steel? How do you know he would not have reacted to the guards questions? Moving would have been a problem.

    If it were so easy, why did Jaime even need Alton? Why not make noise and play dead all by yourself?

  167. Dave
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy

    I didn’t know you need some great acting skills to play dead, I mean even the likes of extras that don’t have speaking lines can do it.

  168. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Regarding Alton, it wasn’t him “playing dead” that caught the guard’s attention as I recall, but the sounds of somebody being bludgeoned to death.

    And regardless, do you really think Jaime’s going to trust to his pathetic little cousin to play along with a plan correctly?

    If I miss anything about this scene it’s Tyrion’s escape plan, but I suppose we couldn’t have that without Riverrun.

    And the reason the coup never happened before in Qarth is precisely because of the presence of the dragons. And although they haven’t said anything yet, I’m wondering if previously all the warlocks could do was indeed parlor tricks, but the birth of the dragons led to a rebirth of their magic (even a scene like in the books with the pyromancer wondering about dragons would suffice in this regard).

    I’m guessing the reason they went with the “King of Qarth” thing is just to send the general theme of too many kings this season over the edge. Xaro’s speech implied he’d gotten the idea from Westeros (something about learning things from the outside world).

    I’m not totally convinced with the Qarth scenes but if they’d stuck with the books it would’ve been boring as shit. And I like the general weirdass vibe there, particularly with Pyat Pree, I got a real “Rosemary’s Baby” vibe from that scene (the very end to be specific, with Mia Farrow’s character accepting her role as the mother of Satan’s baby).

    And honestly, I see no evidence that they’re making “changes for the sake of changes”. You can disagree that their changes improve the storyline, but from my perspective all the changes are part of their goal to fit the general thrust of the books into not-enough-episodes produced with not-enough-money, while simultaneously entertaining the shit out of the audience.

    Dunno man, I just finished watching the episode and mb I have to sit on it, but I really don’t see the point in many, if not all, this week changes…I just didn’t enjoy the episode at all and it’s the first time it happened to me.

    Edit: I just re-read your last paragraph and you may havea point there, new viewers will enjoy it for sure, and mb the changes are to fit a shorter, not-enough budget show. But you can also concede some of the changes/scenes don’t fit that pattern. And regardless if you trust ur cousin or not, just leave him unconscious,no need to kill him…and even if u kill him, the guard would never just open the cage of the most important prisoner ever without calling for backup firts ffs. Would you do it?? I woul’d have called someone first, then poke the guys inside with a spear…so Alton is dead? who cares, the one I’m looking at is Jaime!! I’ll go check him out first not the cousin!! but certainly not give my back to him…bah, I’m going to be :S

  169. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy: Why would that be enough? Was Alton some trained actor or someone with a will of steel? How do you know he would not have reacted to the guards questions? Moving would have been a problem.If it were so easy, why did Jaime even need Alton? Why not make noise and play dead all by yourself?

    Yeah, I’m not sure that he could’ve pulled off that grotesque twitching through his exemplary acting skills.

    This debate is kind of stupid, it boils down to “I don’t think Jaime needed to kill Alton to enact his plan” and/or “I don’t think that plan would have actually worked” vs. “I think it makes sense that he’d want a diversion to be as authentic as possible, and don’t think playacting would have done it, and it would have fooled the guard”. YMMV and all that.

    But what I think a lot of us have an issue with is that people’s expectations based on what did/didn’t happen in the books are coloring their opinions about the believability of certain scenes in the show. Like if George didn’t write it that way then that automatically makes it just a little more suspect.

  170. Mean25
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Alan: A man who would throw an eight year old out the window spontaneously would never kill a random eighth cousin to escape right right after he commented that he’s useless unless fighting.
    My favorite is the concept that Jaime doesn’t change over the course of the series — he’s merely “revealed” and “misunderstood.”.

    Jamie, in my head, would not kill a Lannister family member who was nothing but nice to him. You think people change their morals and personalities just like that, one event, boom, he’s a changed man, I don’t see it like that.
    I’m not gonna comment on your straw man argument about Tywin and your point about Sandor is just wrong, he would not rat Sansa out. Sorry for not being a part of circlejerk party and pointing out flaws in the show.

    chavalah: This isn’t even about the books for me, but more a matter of logic. Tywin is supposed to be one of the smartest men around, particularly when it comes to warfare, but his response to sussing out that Arya is most likely a northern noble girl is to keep fanboying her. At the very least she’s worth a ransom, if she isn’t somehow involved in the poison dart attack. Either way he should be far more careful or, if we go by canon, far more ruthless.

    Exectly!

    Herschel:

    Jamie could have just knocked his cousin out cold and the escape attmept would have been just as efffective. I would think that killing a cousin, however distant would be beneath a Lanister

    That would be perfectly understandble change and good writing.

    Eor:
    I don’t think you know what adaption means

    Googled it just to check and I still think that term reimaginig fits better then adaptation.

  171. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: Dunno man, I just finished watching the episode and mb I have to sit on it, but I really don’t see the point in many, if not all, this week changes…I just didn’t enjoy the episode at all and it’s the first time it happened to me.

    I always watch them twice the first night. Once basically just to see what happens, and that’s usually when my critical eye is most active. Then I take an hour off, maybe alter my consciousness in a conducive manner, and then watch it again, just sitting back and enjoying the ride wherever it may take me. This one in particular I enjoyed much more the second time through.

  172. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Dave:
    Scholesy

    I didn’t know you need some great acting skills to play dead, I mean even the likes of extras that don’t have speaking lines can do it.

    Are you seriously comparing playing an extra in the background to, in theory, attempting to escape from deep inside your enemies encampment? You don’t think there is a little more pressure when you could die? As if the guard yelling at Alton wouldn’t cause him to jump, thus blowing everything?

    There is also the question of whether or not Alton was willing to risk his own life to save his idol. It is one thing to idolize someone and another to die for them. If Alton is not willing, Jaime loses his slim chance, as it would probably be difficult to kill Alton once he was on to Jaime’s plan.

  173. Langkard
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Del:
    One: Glad that Larry is back.His friend giving him a fake spoiler that he took hook, line, and sinker is pretty amusing.

    Two: Hopefully this thread doesn’t get too bogged down on the Alton/Cleos being killed by Jaime issue.I don’t think that it’s as big an issue as it’s being made out to be.

    That’s the way I look at this last episode too. Sure, Jaime killing Alton and Shae helping Sansa with her bedding and Daxos declaring himself King of Qarth are non-canon and perhaps small negatives; but when compared to the amazing positives in this episode, the negatives are miniscule.

    Arya and Tywin, Jon and Ygritte, Tyrion and Cersei – these scenes more than make up for any of the minor negatives. The Arya and Tywin interactions alone made this one of my favorite episodes. Then you add on top the delicious icing of Tyrion and Cersei not quite able to connect with each other and without dialogue, just two amazing actors communicating their emotions without words, and then Jon being teased mercilessly by Ygritte who manages to push all of Jon’s subconscious buttons. In the balance, it was a fabulous episode, which just gets better each time I watch it.

  174. Virtus
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    I’d say playing dead is probably the easiest task any actor could get. Why would he jump at someone yelling, if he’s prepared for the guard coming to investigate?

  175. Mike Chair
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    This isn’t necessarily fandom. These are serious writers from serious magazines.

    You’re assuming Tywin doesn’t consider Arya a threat/asset. Maybe he does and thinks he can discover more by letting it play out. Seriously, I think you’re going to be surprised. He still can be quite twisted — I seem to recall from season 1 that Tyrion’s tale of Tysha was incorporated into the tv show. Didn’t you think of Tyrion when Tywin called Arya small for her age. Was Tywin’s rapport with juvenile Tyrion as cordial as it is with Arya? I think not.

    Sean T. Collins from Rolling Stone, supra:

    Jaime’s admiration for Barristan the Bold is echoed, oddly enough, by his father Tywin Lannister’s fondness for the whip-smart cupbearer formerly known as Arya Stark. Tywin lets her get away with saying and doing stuff that’d be a hanging offense for anyone else simply because he’s a smart person who finds it pleasurable to be around smart people, even a smart maybe-fake-peasant tween girl. It made me wish he could have seen past his son Tyrion’s traumatic birth and deformity – this was the child he could really have done something with, instead of trying to wring blood from the stones of angry Cersei and arrogant Jaime. Instead he shaped them all into emotional cripples: Jaime unable to display any emotion except swaggering cruelty – not a good look when protective mother Catelyn Stark is your antagonist; Tyrion and Cersei almost physically unable to comfort each other, despite them both knowing they need it.

  176. Dave
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy: Are you seriously comparing playing an extra in the background to, in theory, attempting to escape from deep inside your enemies encampment? You don’t think there is a little more pressure when you could die? As if the guard yelling at Alton wouldn’t cause him to jump, thus blowing everything?

    There is also the question of whether or not Alton was willing to risk his own life to save his idol. It is one thing to idolize someone and another to die for them. If Alton is not willing, Jaime loses his slim chance, as it would probably be difficult to kill Alton once he was on to Jaime’s plan.

    I’m asking if he can lay face down on the dirt and twitch a few times, not be the next Robert De Niro. Also, Jaime could have knocked him unconscious than bludgeoning him to death. Anyway, we’ll just have to agree to disagree, it’s obviously the two of us aren’t going to budge from our opinions.

    Anyway, even with my whining, as some people like to call it, I loved this episode. Probably my second favorite for this season.

  177. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Even if he would have killed his cousin (wich he wouldn’t,imo) why would the guard go inside the cage without alerting anyone first and give his back to Jaime?? that makes no sense at all…

    The prisoners are killing each other??? let them lol…why does he go inside the cage alone?? To check if Alton is dead? why? I don’t understand, the important prisoner is Jaime…If he is stupid enough to open the cage and go inside without alerting anyone, and sees the 2 prisoners on the floor, at least go check first on Jaime ffs…

    The more I think about it the less sense it makes…the cage is transparent, you can see through the walls, didn’t the guard see Jaime killing Alton?? Ok he went away for whatever reason and came back to see the 2 bodies on the floor…why would he open the cage? Ok he was coming back just in time to hear some screams and don’t see anything but 2 bodies on the floor, so he opened the cage because…because he thought a shadow monster killed them…why didn’t he check on Jaime first?

    Dumb.

    And ofc we know they could have made Jaime scape without killing his cousin, so the real question is, why did D&D make Jaime kill him, whent it wasn’t necessary, nor in the books? to present us with a more black and white kind of villain.

    They are dumbing down the show on purpose, it’s true they ae not making changes for the sake of changes, they are making changes to get to a broader audience. Wich I hate, because I think they’re underestimating the audience

  178. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Virtus:
    I’d say playing dead is probably the easiest task any actor could get. Why would he jump at someone yelling, if he’s prepared for the guard coming to investigate?

    Why does a hostage cry and move when told specifically not to by the men with guns? Fear and adrenaline are pretty big things.

  179. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    Dave: I’m asking if he can lay face down on the dirt and twitch a few times, not be the next Robert De Niro. Also, Jaime could have knocked him unconscious than bludgeoning him to death. Anyway, we’ll just have to agree to disagree, it’s obviously the two of us aren’t going to budge from our opinions.

    Anyway, even with my whining, as some people like to call it, I loved this episode. Probably my second favorite for this season.

    You are asking him to do this with the cloud of death hovering over him. This isn’t acting class or set where your mistakes can be overlooked. One shot, with your life on the line.

  180. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy: Why does a hostage cry and move when told specifically not to by the men with guns? Fear and adrenaline are pretty big things.

    But why in the seven hells would the guard open the cage if he saw Alton dead????????????

    Why???

  181. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy: You are asking him to do this with the cloud of death hovering over him. This isn’t acting class or set where your mistakes can be overlooked. One shot, with your life on the line.

    But you don’t have to kill him, if you want to attract the guard is better that you beat him bad and leave him crying…thing is no guard in his right mind would open the cage anyway so the plan is dumb from the start

  182. Scholesy
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: But why in the seven hells would the guard open the cage if he saw Alton dead????????????

    Why???

    Because one of the people he was suppose to keep alive is suddenly dead. That is kind of important because they still believe the Lannisters have Sansa and Ayra. It is the same reason why Mama Stark is going to let Jaime go.

  183. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy: Because one of the people he was suppose to keep alive is suddenly dead. That is kind of important because they still believe the Lannisters have Sansa and Ayra. It is the same reason why Mama Stark is going to let Jaime go.

    So there’s 2 guys in a cage, one is suddenly dead, and you don’t think the one that killed him is the other dude???? If the cage is closed, and one dude is dead (how does he know he is dead anyway, did he see him do it? did he heard screams?) the one that did it is the other one for the love of god!!!

    Unless someone else opened the caged, killed them both, and closed the cage again…if you believe that (wich is dumb enough) you check Jaime’s body first! the only important prisoner is Jaime not Alton!!! If he is afraid Jaime might be dead you check on him first!!!

    O well :S

  184. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: But why in the seven hells would the guard open the cage if he saw Alton dead????????????Why???

    Because he’s a freaking moron? People do a lot of stupid shit under duress, both on this show and in real life. And given this was the child of dumbass irrational Karstark I think it’s very believable that the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

  185. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Because he’s a freaking moron? People do a lot of stupid shit under duress, both on this show and in real life. And given this was the child of dumbass irrational Karstark I think it’s very believable that the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

    If the explanations of the character actions is “they are morons” then there’s no need to make them beliavable…theres no need to make a plan to scape for that matter, just make Jaime play sick, it makes much more sense that the guard would open the cage if he thought Jaime was dying than if he saw 2 bodies on the floor…

    Why would he check Alton’s body first? Ah, because “he is a moron”

    Nooooo that is an excuse for bad writing :/

  186. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Another thing I didn’t like was the Tywin/Arya scene…it was pretty obvious Arya was thinking about killing him, so all that people that was saying that she was too young to realize that he was the real enemy, or that he was like a mentor for her, or that she didnt wanna kill him cuase he saved Gendry from being killed, well there it goes your theory (wich I liked). Now there’s no reason why she didn’t say his name to Jaquen :S

  187. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: And there’s no way that Arya might be in cahoots with someone else in the castle?That maybe instead of risking her own life in the moment she might be working with others?(There were plenty of prisoners, after all.)This test still strikes me as single-pronged.

    Who says the test is done?

  188. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: The prisoners are killing each other??? let them lol…why does he go inside the cage alone?? To check if Alton is dead? why?

    He was put in charge of the safety of Alton, not Jaime. He probably panicked causing him to forget certain safety procedures.

  189. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Virtus: The thing is that Jaime didn’t need to kill Alton. Telling him to play dead in order to attract the guard’s attention would have served exactly the same purpose. Having Jaime kill Alton instead just makes him seem like a sociopath, which he never was. He might have been an amoral egoist at this point of the story, but he always justified his actions to himself as serving a greater good (good of the city’s people in the case of Aerys, protection of Cersei and their children in the case of Bran). He didn’t just kill for fun.

    Jaime just doesn’t think this way. Cunning is Tyrion’s specialty. He didn’t kill Alton for fun, he was in his way.

  190. Dreamlife
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    I find that I ease up on my negatives and better appreciate the positives when I watch each episode twice. I was initially irritated by the lack of suspense about Bran and Rickon’s murder. Now, I understand that it’s not about whether or not those two kids are Bran and Rickon, but simply making everyone believe it. The kids are too young and powerless to show their faces to Theon; the Winterfell folks are too powerless to question. I’m curious whose idea it was to leave the nutshells at the farm house. Osha’s, I’m guessing, no way that was an accident.

    Also, while I agree that killing Alton was cruel as hell, I feel like it fits with the type of person Jaime was (to me) in the beginning of the series. That was excellent acting on NCW’s part; now I understand why this was his favorite scene ever (I’m assuming he refers to the scene with Alton). I also really liked his talking back to Catelyn. Yes, I like Cat, but there’s no denying that she was completely wrong in her hatred of Jon Snow, and Jaime picked up on that very quickly from that meeting with Jon Snow last season.

    Good to see Larry’s video review and I am happy he has eased up on the Sansa hate, though I don’t understand his reasoning. “She’s finally doing stuff”? Not really. She’s still a victim and powerless—even more so now that she’s able to bear children. It’s just now she’s much more sympathetic when she’s not being a bitch to her handmaiden.

    Hard to believe only 3 episodes left. *sniff*

  191. Langkard
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    Dreamlife:
    Hard to believe only 3 episodes left.*sniff*

    Only 3 more weeks and then a long 9 month wait. If for no other reason than that, someone needs to invent a quick and easy, do-it-yourself suspended animation technology.

  192. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Just read Axechucker’s recap on TVEquals. I have no idea who this Reek character is (don’t spoiler me pls!), but his theory about Dagmer actually being Roose Bolton’s bastard (brother???) is quite intriguing.

    Ever since Roose Bolton appeared in the scene in which Robb first meets Talisa, it’s been clear he takes a dim view of allocating scarce food and medical resources to enemy prisoners. He thinks Robb is an idealist for refusing to torture – specifically, flay – them instead. It would make sense if Roose also disapproved of Robb’s decision to send Theon (of all people!) to negotiate an alliance between his father Balon and Robb, the son of the man who took his crown and his sons. He could conceivably have asked his bastard to spy on the Greyjoys.

    Indeed, Roose may have concluded that Robb is too inexperienced to be a successful King in the North and that he’s not going to let him rule without input from his bannermen. Last season, we saw that Robb had a war council but his wolf attacked Greatjon Umber and he later overruled them when he let a Lannister spy go with incorrect information on his troop strength. That one happened to pan out, but it was an extremely risky move. This season, Robb has ignored his mother’s advice and we haven’t even seen him consult with his bannermen.

    It’s even (remotely) conceivable that Roose would ask his basterd to put ideas into Theon’s head that would expose Robb’s folly in letting him go and then put his own House in a position to save Robb’s bacon while also putting the Balon genie back in the bottle.

    However, the Iron Islands are almost barren and there is very little fresh water. There can’t be all that many Ironborn, their raids rely on the element of surprise to overcome the disadvantage in raw troop strength and lack of a cavalry. The crew of the Sea Bitch disrespected Theon but they’ve never challenged Dagmer on his identity. That implies they know him or know of him and consider him one of the Ironborn. That would not be the case if Roose had only recently introduced a spy to the islands, so Dagmer = Bolton’s bastard seems far fetched.

    Slightly more plausible: Roose didn’t trust the uneasy truce that followed Balon’s defeat at the hands of the Stark army and the Lannister fleet almost a decade earlier. It was then that he introduced his spy as a one-man sleeper cell, who has since risen through the ranks. Still, there would have to be some serious historical tension between House Stark and House Bolton for Roose to use that spy in an elaborate scheme to sack and then recapture Winterfell without the Starks ever figuring that out.

    Applying Occam’s razor: Dagmer is what he claims to be and has simply been merged with this Reek character for the TV show. The Bolton bastard is going to ride to Winterfell from the Roose family holdfast with a bunch of soldiers and take care of Theon, since Roose asked Robb to let his House do just that in Catelyn’s stead an episode or two ago. Yara might make it to Winterfell in time to extract Theon or, there might be a battle that the Greyjoy lose. Either way, Robb will owe Roose big time.

  193. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    It’s not only fandom, but certainly it’s mostly fandom that is wholeheartedly invested in this show or this relationship.

    You mention that Tywin may be comparing Arya to Tyrion and then quote Sean Collin’s article where he says: “It made me wish he could have seen past his son Tyrion’s traumatic birth and deformity – this was the child he could really have done something with.” Basically, Tywin underestimates his most clever child, much like he seems to be underestimating Arya in this last episode. More explicitly Tywin compares Arya to Cersei, another of his children he often overlooks. He has a better rapport with Arya than he seems to with any of his children because he doesn’t put the pressure on her of being a Lannister. That doesn’t mean that he should overlook a possible threat.

    Yes, Tysha’s rape (save for Tyrion’s part in Tysha’s rape,) made it onto the show last season. Tywin is a ruthless person to his enemies–certainly in canon, and even in the show. So far we haven’t seen that with Arya; we’ve just seen him fanboying her. She’s a great character and I see why he might have let his guard down with her…but that doesn’t negate that he also sees her as a northerner and noble-born, which should come with consequences in Tywin Lannister’s camp.

    fuelpagan: Who says the test is done?

    And who says there’s more? This story is completely altered and none of us know what’s coming up. My criticism is with what I’ve seen. I hope there’s more.

  194. andrea
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,
    True. Qarth sounds like more and more like MY cat and its hairballs.
    Thanks Mike! Please don´t forget to link AfterElton (because I´ll forget to look, that´s for sure)

  195. sunspear
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Ok, I’m tired of reading comments about Jaime. Let’s comment on something else.

    Catelyn.

    I really don’t like this change. Releasing Jaime was a dumb enough move in the books, but now she doesn’t have the deaths of Bran and Rickon to motivate her. I can see how she might think she needs to due something since Jaime is likely to get killed, but can’t she have Brienne and some other loyal guards protect him? She just seems even more dumb in my opinion. What do you guys think?

  196. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Ok, I’m tired of reading comments about Jaime. Let’s comment on something else.

    Catelyn.

    I really don’t like this change. Releasing Jaime was a dumb enough move in the books, but now she doesn’t have the deaths of Bran and Rickon to motivate her. I can see how she might think she needs to due something since Jaime is likely to get killed, but can’t she have Brienne and some other loyal guards protect him? She just seems even more dumb in my opinion. What do you guys think?

    I think we should wait to see how it actually plays out before making our minds up.

  197. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: If the explanations of the character actions is “they are morons” then there’s no need to make them beliavable…theres no need to make a plan to scape for that matter, just make Jaime play sick, it makes much more sense that the guard would open the cage if he thought Jaime was dying than if he saw 2 bodies on the floor…

    Why would he check Alton’s body first? Ah, because “he is a moron”

    Nooooo that is an excuse for bad writing :/

    People do a lot of moronic things in the show and in the books. Sometimes it makes sense within the context of their characters, sometimes it doesn’t, and opinion among readers/viewers is split (“Ned Stark is a moron” seemed to be the rallying cry of a lot of newbies last year, and many found his actions totally unbelievable). When judging the actions of this young soldier it’s hard to say whether or not his rushing into the cage was out of character or not, because we don’t know a damn thing about him.

    I was being a little flip when I said “Well he’s a moron”, because obviously he made a mistake since we saw what happened before and after. It’s very easy to second-guess the actions of characters from our enlightened perspective. Fact is, though, sometimes people just fuck up. In the pantheon of stupid things people have done in this series, this scene really doesn’t rank very high for me.

  198. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    Until we see how it plays out you can’t say it is an incomplete test. This isn’t westeros CSI were the mystery is solved by the end of the show.

  199. Jack Slap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Dagmer being the bastard of Bolton is the worst idea ever. sorry :-)

  200. Jack Slap
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Ok, I’m tired of reading comments about Jaime. Let’s comment on something else.

    Catelyn.

    I really don’t like this change. Releasing Jaime was a dumb enough move in the books, but now she doesn’t have the deaths of Bran and Rickon to motivate her. I can see how she might think she needs to due something since Jaime is likely to get killed, but can’t she have Brienne and some other loyal guards protect him? She just seems even more dumb in my opinion. What do you guys think?

    Perhaps she will get a raven at the beginning of the next episode from Luwen telling her of the boys deaths. And that will be her motivation to send Jaime on his way with miss butch..

  201. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    I don’t see Game of Thrones like an episodic CSI mystery. Frankly, both seasons have had the feel of a novel in 10 parts. Most scenes are rather self-contained, contributing to a larger arc for each character, but also delivering pertinent stepping marks as we go along. I think the majority of Tywin and Arya’s have hit the same note over and over–he finds her smart and amusing, and she’s battling a bevy of feelings about a man she despises and yet has given her a strange place where she is appreciated.

    Then in this episode we get something new–he knows she’s noble born, or at least the suspicion is very high–but very little changes. There’s also this alleged plot on his life, which he tests her about, but in a very limited way that yields nothing. Primarily, she continues to battle her feelings and he continues to fanboy her. We’ve seen it all before, so if there is a change-in-relationship that they want to address, frankly I think we’re overdue. It’s not about “solving a mystery,” it’s about believable plot and character developments rather than staying in the same place indefinitely. Especially since we have so much ground to cover on this show, and so many other characters and plots who haven’t gotten nearly amount of time as Tywin and Arya.

  202. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    Their scenes together have an element of fanwank about them, like the showrunners thought those two together were so good they gave them as much time as possible. And judging from reactions, both from longtime bookreaders and total virgins, it’s a success, as they’re a joy to watch and people find their interactions suspenseful. I find them a little gratuitous myself, but I’m also enjoying them immensely.

    And hey, we did get some great backstory in about the Targaryen invasion.

  203. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    I agree with that; Tywin/Arya is more there to please the fans than advance the story. I’m definitely at the place where it’s a bit gratuitous, but I know many aren’t. I liked the Targaryen backstory and Jon and Ygritte talking about the First Men. And maybe I can even go so far as to hope that Tywin mentioning Jonquil means she’ll turn up in Sansa’s arc. :D

    EDIT: This probably wasn’t intentional, but I liked how Arya fangirled Visenya right before Sansa fangirled the Hound. Shame that Tywin didn’t tell Arya what the Hound told Sansa–at the end of the day, it’s not about honorable knights or kickass warriors–it’s about ruthless killers. Not to step too much into the Jaime debate here, but our “man without honor” surely tied some themes of the episode together. I liked this one better than my comments make it seem, it’s true. :P

  204. fuelpagan
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    That’s my point that the story arcs haven’t concluded so its hard to judge it as a whole to make conclusions about whether the test was complete or not.

    I see the relationship different then you are. Tywin starts out recruiting her as a cupbearer and doesn’t really expect much. But she continues to impress him and discovers she can read. He has figured out she is noble and if he had the slightest clue Arya wasn’t in Kings Landing he probably would figure it out. He might still figure out who she was when it is too late.

    All we saw was the interrogation, we only have the very basic idea about what information he learned from it. The tests was to see if she was the threat. He likes her but is concluding he doesn’t trust her. It would follow that this is the reason he leaves her behind when he heads out. If he really was this big fanboy of the girl he would take her with him to the next location.

  205. hahahaha
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Love Larry’s Otaku review, glad he’s back, but if he is going to have a friend who is in the know give him info it might lose some appeal.

  206. chavalah
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Just to put it out there, she doesn’t have to be Arya Stark to have value. I assume the Manderlys, Mormonts, or any other northern House might also be interested in the whereabouts and safe return of a wayward family member. Tywin should be aware of that.

  207. TheBlackFlame
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Ours is the Fury:
    The adaptation is still quite faithful, especially when you compare it to other movies and TV shows based on books. It could be more faithful, true. I guess I’m just thrilled it hasn’t turned out as awful as the adaptations of The Dark is Rising and Legend of the Seeker.

    LV,

    Pushing a child out of a window intending to murder him is an amoral act. Regardless of the circumstances. We may have different ideas of morality, that’s normal, but I think his willingness to execute an innocent child indicates his lack of morals. To me as a parent, murdering a child is pretty much the worst thing anyone can ever do. When Jaime pushed Bran out the window, he wasn’t even thinking of protecting Cersei’s children (he doesn’t really consider them his beyond biology- that is mentioned in the books), but only of himself and Cersei.

    Faithful adaptation? Really? I wasn’t gonna say anything but come on! Okay whether the changes are good or bad is a subjective question but how closely the adaptation stays to the books is not. Every week it gets further and further from the source material, even if you like what they are doing you can’t deny that there are not inconsiderable differences between the two. To say otherwise in not accurate. That said I kinda liked the changes to Dany’s story, her arc at this point in the books is a snorefest. Taken on its own, independent from the story, the death scene of The 13 was pretty awesome.

  208. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    Ah good the Westeros review is finally up.

    Once again, very in line with my own impressions, particularly the fact that this is the first episode to not feel somewhat off since episode 2.

  209. Vikestad
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    I am not that upset about the small Jaime change. It makes it more difficult for the writers to turn him around in season 3 and 4 I suppose. I will shake my fist at them if they fail at that.

  210. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    Mean25: Jamie, in my head, would not kill a Lannister family member who was nothing but nice to him. You think people change their morals and personalities just like that, one event, boom, he’s a changed man, I don’t see it like that.
    I’m not gonna comment on your straw man argument about Tywin and your point about Sandor is just wrong, he would not rat Sansa out. Sorry for not being a part of circlejerk party and pointing out flaws in the show.

    But he would be complicit in the repeated mass rape of his brother’s wife. Awesome. Way to be logically consistent.

    You aren’t going to comment on my “straw man” argument on Tywin, probably because you have no idea what a straw an argument actually is. Come back when you do.

    Oh, and way to be unecessarily crude and pointless in your last sentence.

  211. Silverjaime
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:19 am | Permalink

    Really enjoyed this episode – it was by far the best yet IMO. I thought the Jaime/Alton scene was dreadful, but actually IN character for Jaime. He was absolutely horrible, which makes his journey more awesome, as in the books. As usual the acting was superb – Michelle Fairley was brilliant in that scene as well.
    The only acting I’m not getting is Kit Harrington, who really hasn’t changed expression for about 3 episodes. I also don’t like how they’ve protrayed him only as some callow boy – there was more to him even at this stage in the books. Ygritte is exactly how I imagined her!
    The Cersei/ Tyrion scene was awsome – you could FEEL how he wanted to hug her…!
    Lots of greatness in this episode – and the final scene – UGH! Theon confirms why I always loathed him. ( but great acting by Alfie!)

  212. Oi!
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    Personally loved the episode even more than ep.6. And overall ep.6 nad 7 are by far away the best these season (so far). Making Qarth more interesting form the bore that was the books makes me very hopeful for Meeren and onwards. Jaime/Cat scene was by far the best dialogue in the series so far (great acting by Nikolaj and Michelle). Plus Jaime killing Alton was great to show case that when it comes down to something he wants/loves he IS a ruthless fuck.
    Hoping that D&D continue with these small changes.

  213. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Yes because he was right. By killing Aerys he followed his own (twisted) moral code, the fact that people can’t see that is what gets him mad because he cares about people perception where honor is concerned, but he can lives with it because he knows that was the right thing to do for him. If people start calling him kinslayer that will bother him as well except that he won’t have the same protection, this time he’ll know that they are right and i’m really not sure he should be ok with that.

  214. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:09 am | Permalink

    TheBlackFlame,

    Can you point me to a tv show (even a movie) adapted from a book more faithful than game of thrones is to a song of ice and fire ?
    Interview with a vampire, millenium trilogy the original not the US garbage, hunger games, dexter, justified, True blood, lord of the rings, some of them are called faithfull adaptations but none come close to Game of Thrones.
    Legend of the Seeker maybe?

  215. charliesooner
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    Jamie didn’t try to escape. He successfully caused dissension. If Karstark wants him dead badly enough, Catelyn will have to save him in order to keep her daughters alive.

  216. Fer
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    The thing with Jaime, is that he had no reason to kill Alton, rather than say just badly beating him. Is out of character because Jaime may have no honor but does not enjoy gratuitous cruelty, killing the cousin when just beating him would have serve as well, or maybe even better since the cousin was willing to actively help in his escape plan, is something only the likes of the Bastard of Bolton would do.

  217. The_Rabbit01
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:59 am | Permalink

    To add a word or two on faithfulness of this adaptation.

    I loved LOTR very much, but if we compare the two, D & D are way more conservative comparing to Peter Jackson.

    Is it a better adaptation at this stage – can not say at this stage, keeping in mind that Jackson had a finished book to start with, what was clearly his advantage.
    He had fewer storlines, less complex structure, fewer important details, and less realistic characters.
    The changes Jackosn brought into his film, on every level were far more radical, than Benioff s and Weiss s.
    Though, I liked that trilogy – even I felt some of the changes unnecessary (for ex.: Sauron vs. Gandalf wizard fight).
    But I aways tend to look and see the bigger picture than focus myself into the details.

    The most radical change by D & D is Dany s storyline – was it really necessary?
    I would say: yes. Not because of more action added to the material written in ACOK, but due to the limited resources and most of all limited time to develop and show Dany s inner battles during her stay in Quarth.

    I still think that D & D are on the right track – despite some inevitable changes – they still are deep in the ASOIAF world.
    And I am very happy beacuse of it.

  218. Anne
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    Pure speculation
    1 – Cat + sword = hand. From the look on Jaime’s face he wanted Cat to kill him, spent some time goading her into it. What worse fate than maiming him and then setting him free? and
    2 – Would Theon have turned so evil if Dagmar had not been there to encourage him and egg him on?

  219. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    The_Rabbit01,

    My thoughts exactly, or close enough.
    D&D clearly demonstrated that they are at least as much fans of the books as we are, their main concern is to bring this story to the screen to as many people as possible (those who wouldn’t open a book in their lives). They’ll do everything they can to keep the story, the characters, the spirit, and the themes of the source material in the best way possible given the constraints (budget, medium, contracts of everyone involved, time).
    They were in awe while reading the books for the first time they know how powerful this story is and they won’t jeopardize it by trying to add their “personal touch” just for the sake of it.
    They’re working 365 days a year to bring us this gift, so, for those thinking that they’re not doing enough or that they’re not doing the book justice, just start your own adaptation we’ll see how it goes.

  220. The_Rabbit01
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan,

    yeah, pretty much agreed.
    I do not like to talk about other fans opinions and especially feelings – but I must say I have noticed that some people tend to ignore all of objectif and real-life stuff going on in the production.
    I can not be thankful enough to the whole production team (producers, acotrs, writers, crew, extras, etc..) and their efforts.

  221. Magnus
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Rob:
    Ours is the Fury,
    And that’s why the lannisters win. Their default option is to completely wipe out threats. The shrewd and ruthless are the winners in westeros

    It’s not how they win. It is how they force themselves into a strong position in the mid game, but then completely fail at the end game because everybody turn against them. I think the best players so far have been the Tyrells (though they were helped a lot by Littlefinger). They would probably win had it not been for circumstances outside their control (arrival of invading armies). And of course, there will yet be a time for wolves.

  222. Mean25
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    http://youtu.be/62a40RS2Ojg
    Adaptation Discussion

  223. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    chavalah:
    fuelpagan,

    Just to put it out there, she doesn’t have to be Arya Stark to have value. I assume the Manderlys, Mormonts, or any other northern House might also be interested in the whereabouts and safe return of a wayward family member.Tywin should be aware of that.

    True. But this is where I think Tywin doesn’t care. They have had several conversations and he hasn’t bothered asking for a name. He has no need for ransom money. Other than leverage, he doesn’t see girls as useful. Sexist I know. But most families on the outside of the deal would view one son for two girls think the side with the son is getting the better deal.

    But that is why he is interested in where she is from, not who she is. He is trying to see if he could use her as leverage, but the house she names doesn’t command enough troops to bother with. He is more concerned with the bigger houses like the Boltons or Manderlys.

  224. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Alan: But he would be complicit in the repeated mass rape of his brother’s wife. Awesome. Way to be logically consistent.

    Is there any evidence that Jaime knew what Tywin had planned for Tysha? So how is he complicit in anything but the lie to Tyrion? Jaime has done enough horrible things all on his own, so there’s no need to make up other crimes on the basis of flimsy/no evidence at all.

  225. kyle
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I think it was good foreshadowing. The sceen with Aria and Tywin, talking about leaving a legacy. If Jamie were to die in his cell, he would be forever remembered at the kinslayer. Not a legacy that you would want to leave. Maybe his second stint in captive will help him to realize that he wants to change his legacy.

  226. Eor
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    chavalah:
    Mike Chair,

    And who says there’s more?This story is completely altered and none of us know what’s coming up.My criticism is with what I’ve seen.I hope there’s more.

    The fact that there’s more episodes? If Tywin never mentions it again you can complain, but complaining about things you haven’t seen just because you decided what’s going to be in them is silly. It’s like that guy a while back who was complaining about Littlefinger and Arya and was sure that this meant Littlefinger was going to replace the Hound for the third season. Since they cut out Bolton/Harrenhall (I’m assuming), then how about Arya goes to Jaquen for the third debt and has him fake her death or something? Bam whole problem solved, there’s still tension for her third debt and they don’t need to spend the budget to refurbish the set with stark men or explain why Arya doesn’t reveal herself to her brother’s bannerman.

  227. Slimbox
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    oddlyotter,

    Haha, I did the skimming ahead too!

  228. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    fuelpagan: True. But this is where I think Tywin doesn’t care. They have had several conversations and he hasn’t bothered asking for a name. He has no need for ransom money. Other than leverage, he doesn’t see girls as useful. Sexist I know. But most families on the outside of the deal would view one son for two girls think the side with the son is getting the better deal.

    I see this as out of character for him. He may not need ransom money, but he sure as hell needs a good strategy against the north. (Or would Tyrion tell me I mean “good tactics”? :P) In the first episode of this season, Robb assumes that if he leaves Jaime with one of his bannermen, that bannerman would receive a raven that might encourage him to release the Kingslayer. Surely Tywin could send a raven to Arya’s “family” saying that harm will come to her if that family doesn’t aid him in some way. That’s pretty good leverage.

    Eor: The fact that there’s more episodes? If Tywin never mentions it again you can complain, but complaining about things you haven’t seen just because you decided what’s going to be in them is silly.

    I don’t know what’s coming up, that’s true. But that doesn’t mean that I have to be fully on board with how things have been handled so far, given the constraints of the season and the quantity of what we have to cover, or about how Arya’s storyline has so far been handled. If we go by your logic, none of us should critique anything until the end of the season, or perhaps the end of the show’s run.

  229. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: Is there any evidence that Jaime knew what Tywin had planned for Tysha? So how is he complicit in anything but the lie to Tyrion? Jaime has done enough horrible things all on his own, so there’s no need to make up other crimes on the basis of flimsy/no evidence at all.

    I thought he was present in the moment, but I’m not going to look it up since that would take work. So I’ll just accede.

    Either way, he knew his dad wasn’t about to do something kind. He knew he was crushing Tyrion emotionally. So perhaps the rape was something he couldn’t anticipate (*whistles the Rains of Castamere*) but I’d still like to hear real evidence (much like you asked evidence from me) that:

    - Jaime has any special form of affinity for kin that keeps him from doing horrible things to them, excepting Cersei, who is his Twin.

    - That Jaime makes decisions based on rational thought and moral boundaries rather than impulse.

    - That that level of violence is beyond Jaime.

    - That he even really considered that person (Cleos Frey, Alton Lannister) anything special because of kinship.

    People want to blast the actual mechanics of the escape attempt as awkward and odd? I have no problem with that — they were. I didn’t really care while watching because the preceding conversation is awesome and because I don’t go into the show looking to nitpick.

    But this weird insistence that killing him was somehow either out of character for Jaime Lannister or somehow more awful than what he did to Bran is mind-boggling to me.

  230. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan:
    TheBlackFlame,

    Can you point me to a tv show (even a movie) adapted from a book more faithful than game of thrones is to a song of ice and fire ?
    Interview with a vampire, millenium trilogy the original not the US garbage, hunger games, dexter, justified, True blood, lord of the rings, some of them are called faithfull adaptations but none come close to Game of Thrones.
    Legend of the Seeker maybe?

    I’ve asked this many a time, both here and on Westeros. Never gotten a single response.

    I know a few movies that were both more faithful and as well executed.

    (The Godfather comes to mind. Most of it is very literal. Although that was only more “faithful” because they included Young Don Corleone in Godfather II — I imagine if there was an internet in 1971 that the outrage would have been insane! What if they had cut Dany’s storyline from the TV show, and then started running it in Season 2, half Dany and half completely made up story about the characters from Season 1!)

    I know of no television shows that were as well executed, or movies that attempted to adapt something the scope of ASOIF. None. Heck, most miniseries aren’t this faithful and they need to keep it up for only a few episodes.

    Even movies have struggled with the scope and setting of fantasy. For example, Harry Potter tried literal when the books were small, and the result was stilted and awkward. They adapted and the movies got better, but they continually cut character development and backstory for action. A decent adaptation, but not more faithful and not better.

    And each movie was only 2+ hours, encompassed a children’s book with much fewer characters and had a production budget significantly larger than Game of Thrones.

  231. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    And concerning the Jaime for Sansa/Arya trade, by book three it’s obvious that Tywin realizes just how much Sansa is worth (and it’s a lot more than Jaime, at least in terms of political strategy). He steps in pretty quick to stop her marriage to the Tyrells “the direwolf and the rose” can’t be in bed together.

    And when Tyrion suggests that they send her back to Robb so he might bend the knee, Tywin says: “Send her to Rivverun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister and shore up her son’s alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon.”

    I think it’s fair to say that despite (and because of) the sexist undertones in Westeros, Tywin recognizes the worth of female hostages, and uses them without quibble to aid his own ends.

  232. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    chavalah: I see this as out of character for him. He may not need ransom money, but he sure as hell needs a good strategy against the north. (Or would Tyrion tell me I mean “good tactics”? :P) In the first episode of this season, Robb assumes that if he leaves Jaime with one of his bannermen, that bannerman would receive a raven that might encourage him to release the Kingslayer. Surely Tywin could send a raven to Arya’s “family” saying that harm will come to her if that family doesn’t aid him in some way. That’s pretty good leverage.

    But it’s a girl. Tywin only sees value in girls as marriage pawns. Therefore this girl in his possession only has value if she is from a powerful family. That is why he keeps digging for information to see if he can figure out where she is really from. To use her as leverage to take 50 soldiers away from Robb isn’t worth his time and is really an empty threat. Because to disobey Tywin doesn’t mean the death of a loved one, it means the death of your whole household. A small holdfast just isn’t worth his time and everyone would know that. To just harm a girl that way hurts the legacy he is trying to build. It’s a leverage that makes him look weak. The same way Theon looks weak for killing the boys and he would look weak if he didn’t kill the boys.

  233. LV
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Steve: Then you need to reread the text because it doesnt say any of that.Jaime wasn’t protecting “his” kids when he pushed Bran out of a window.He didn’t care about his kids at all, in fact he never looked at them as his.He was protecting himself and Cersei, and his illegal activity.

    As for protecting Cersei, that’s a reason but it’s not a justification.Let’s not forget, if he didn’t put himself or her in that compromising position in the first place, then there wouldnt’ have been a need to try to kill Bran.His choices led him there, and killing was the only way he knew how to deal with it.

    His actions basically started the entire war.If he never had an affair with Cersei, then he wouldn’t have had to push Bran out of a window, which meant that Littlefinger wouldn’t have been able to manipulate the situation by having Catelyn and NEd think that the Lannisters sent the hired knife after Bran.This means that Catelyn would never have taken Tyrion hostage on the Kingsroad.

    No, I know the novels well enough.
    But nice nitpick! I wrote that he saved five lives: His own, Cersei’s and those of their children. Nothing you write invalidates that.
    That Jaime has a detached relationship to his children is obvious. Still, he and Cersei, having been lovers for all of their adult life, certainly knew what was at stake if they ever were to get caught. And none of the outlandish responses to Bran proposed here (or elsewhere) passes scrutiny. Killing Bran was the most effective, persistent and reasonable thing to do at that moment. Everything else would have posed an even greater threat to Jaime and Cersei.
    By the way: The “nobody would have believed Bran” argument is absurd, since all it took to get other to investigate the matter were some dark-haired bastards or a young girl’s unwitting remarks on fair-haired children. If Bran had told what he saw, nobody could have stopped the truth from coming out.

    As for your consequentialist judgement of Jaime’s actions: Well, duh. If we all could anticipate what effects our actions might have later, life would be quite different…
    Don’t take this the wrong (ie some unintentioned) way: I don’t disagree with your reading of the order of events. But what has that got to do with how Jaime makes his decision at that particular moment? It’s not as if we judge someone right back to his birth or whatever event we believe was his ‘original’ mistake in life. At least, I don’t think that would be a valid method (outside of ethics departments, perhaps).

  234. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    chavalah: And when Tyrion suggests that they send her back to Robb so he might bend the knee, Tywin says: “Send her to Rivverun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister and shore up her son’s alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon.”

    By that point Jaime was no longer Robb’s hostage. And Tywin already had plans in motion to deal with Robb. So we can’t say Tywin would see Sansa’s worth more than Jaime’s. Also, Sansa’s worth is because of the house she is from. Since he doesn’t know Arya is missing from Kings Landing, and this little girl is claiming to be from some small holdfast in the North, it just isn’t worth his time to use her as leverage unless he thinks he knows who she is.

  235. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    That’s part of my complaint with the episode; he didn’t really dig that deep to see where she was from. He delivered some pithy lines about using “milord” if she was going to pose as a commoner, which put her more on her guard. Knowing she’s lying isn’t the same as knowing the truth. Surely he should have been more direct about it. He’s killing his own men in the yard for information likely few to none of them had about the assassination attempt. Why not more standard interrogation rather than more fanboying? (Putting the “milord” speech in seems like it’s just playing to the fandom that’s read book five and Roose’s similar suggestion to Reek.)

    Ned Stark held Theon as a hostage and probably would have killed him if Balon rebelled against the crown. In Tywin’s eyes, he’d be holding the child of traitors to the crown as well, not boys he murders after invading their home. I don’t think it would hurt his legacy, certainly no more than constantly being beaten by Robb Stark on the field.

    Tywin doesn’t need more soldiers, be it 50 or a few hundred. That’s not the problem. But it could aid him to turn some of Robb’s men against him from the inside and start something covert. At this point, I’d think he’d be willing to consider any options that come across his path. There’s not much going on for him otherwise at the moment.

  236. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Either way, he knew his dad wasn’t about to do something kind. He knew he was crushing Tyrion emotionally. So perhaps the rape was something he couldn’t anticipate (*whistles the Rains of Castamere*) but I’d still like to hear real evidence (much like you asked evidence from me) that:

    I think it is a little unfair to put the rape of Tyrion’s wife on Jaime’s sholders. A young man who didn’t have the balls to stand up to his father is not the same as agreeing with his father’s actions.

    Alan: But this weird insistence that killing him was somehow either out of character for Jaime Lannister or somehow more awful than what he did to Bran is mind-boggling to me.

    Agreed.

  237. Red Priestess
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Can I say that I loved Alfie Allen’s portrayal of Theon once again?
    The way you can almost see his thoughts on his face… brilliant acting.

  238. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    How is he going to dig deeper?

    I see it as him pointing out the wholes in her story in the hopes to gain her trust to tell the truth. It’s not about fanboying, but gaining trust. More direct questions from him will just lead to more direct lies from her. I think Tywin is aware of this.

    I’m sorry, I don’t see Ned Stark killing Theon. More like if Balon rebelled again, they would crush him and put Theon on the Seastone Chair.

    Either way the number is too small to bother with. He already has other plans in the works that will thin Robb’s forces in far greater numbers.

  239. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Tywin could dig deeper through more traditional interrogation, like what he’s putting his own men through with the Mountain. *shudder* Even if it’s not that bad, there’s a lot of space between pithy “use milord” lines and being tortured to death.

    Maybe I give too much credit to book Tywin. :P I see him as understanding that Sansa’s worth more, politically, than Jaime because she can buy an army through marriage and Jaime is just one general. Most characters don’t see this, frankly, because they’re short-sighted. Even Robb admits this to Cat in book three.

    I’ll have to disagree about Ned and Theon; Ned isn’t above killing when people break their oaths. Maybe, if Theon were younger, he wouldn’t kill him but just “punish” him somehow, but the consequences are meant to be dire. GRRM talks about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADR39E0pxzs (And of course, Tywin isn’t Ned anyway. He isn’t above killing the children of traitors.)

    fuelpagan: Either way the number is too small to bother with. He already has other plans in the works that will thin Robb’s forces in far greater numbers.

    Are those plans really in the works yet? So far Robb hasn’t alienated the Freys by breaking his marriage contract. We’ve seen scenes where Roose is put off by some of Robb’s behaviors, but we have no proof that he’s in cahoots with Tywin yet. And again, if I were Tywin fighting a losing war that he says he’ll be most remembered by, I’d use all my assets, no matter how seemingly small.

  240. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    I like FaBio’s theory about Dagmar (I’m a big fan of “out-of-the-box” thinking), but I’m not quite buying it… yet.

    I just think it would be too much to explain i.e. Roose had a feeling Theon would betray Robb, so he sent Ramsay to track him, which he did by killing an Ironman and assuming his identity, which at no point anyone said anything about, as in “Hey, who are you?”. Similarly, I’d say the reason Dagmar refers to Ironmen as “them” rather than “us” is because he’s usually talking about betrayal, and doesn’t want to implicate himself (i.e. “they” won’t respect you implies that “I” still will). And lastly, it might be a bit of a stretch to assume that just because a character takes on the role of another from the book (i.e. Dagmar = Reek), it doesn’t mean that they’ll actually transform into that person. Osha, for example, has taken on some of the characteristics of the Reed siblings, but at no point do I expect her to reveal herself as Meera. Just sayin’.

    All in all I think it could be done with clever writing, but it just seems a little clumsy at this point in the story (not that it isn’t a good idea, but it would be difficult to account for with the way the story has played out so far, the way I see it). But again, I do like the way you’re thinking there. If it does turn out to be true, you’re the man.

  241. TheBlackFlame
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    The Maltese Falcon
    The Hotel New Hampshire
    Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
    The Dresden Files
    The Thin Man
    The FIRST season of Game of Thrones
    I could go on. But hey facts have never stopped fanboys from felicitating am I right.

  242. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    I generally defend the showrunners, but the Dagmar = Ramsay theory is ridiculous on so many levels.

    Dagmar has played some Ramsay aspect. I could even see him selling out Theon and letting the real Ramsay in so that he could save his skin and head home.

    But actually be Roose’s bastard? That’s just unbelievable.

  243. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    TheBlackFlame:
    Alan,

    The Maltese Falcon
    The Hotel New Hampshire
    Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
    The Dresden Files
    The Thin Man
    The FIRST season of Game of Thrones
    I could go on. But hey facts have never stopped fanboys from felicitating am I right.

    I have not read all of those (though I have seen them).

    I will give you the First Season of GOT, but that’s kind of a cheat, right? I mean, you are basically acknowledging the producers did a great job.

    Hotel New Hampshire — no. You need to re-read and re-watch. HNH is one of the reasons John Irving wrote the Cider House Rules screenplay himself — he despised what Hollywood did to his novels. (Ironically enough, a lot of people thought CHR was not faithful enough. Sigh.)

    Dresden Files? Are you kidding? They didn’t even use the books! It’s completely new plots! The characterizations are loosely based at best! How can anyone take you seriously if you thought the Dresden Files were a faithful or good adaptation?

    As for the Maltese Falcon, it’s been a long time for both watching and reading, but I present this one fact: it’s 217 pages in paperback.

    Also, you really need to learn to argue without the crude and snide remarks at the end, especially when you screw up the actual work you were looking for. (And no, I don’t care if English is your first language or not, if you’re going to compare someone’s defense of something to committing sexual acts, you should probably know how to spell it).

  244. ASoIaF Fan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Thanks for your polite answer and the debunking of some of TheBlackFlame list that i haven’t read.

    TheBlackFlame,

    You’re only talking about stories that were fully adapted from a source material that was fully available and comparing it to just part of a story, how is that a fair comparison?
    More so when D&D have already stated after season one that they were now in the process of adapting the whole saga as a tv show, divided in as many 10 episodes seasons as they see fit.
    Chronologically season 2 is more or less Clash of King but they’re already planning long term and rearranging storylines and characters to make it viable for the medium, the budget and the time-constraints.
    Wait until you see the big picture before judging if plots or characters have really been significantly changed.

  245. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: Tywin could dig deeper through more traditional interrogation, like what he’s putting his own men through with the Mountain. *shudder* Even if it’s not that bad, there’s a lot of space between pithy “use milord” lines and being tortured to death.

    He saw her spirit in the pen. If traditional interrogation would work on this girl, her identity still wouldn’t be a secret. Interrogation isn’t just about the one you are working over, it is also those who are having to watch it. Arya is subjected to this the same as everyone else. She knows men are suffering for her actions.

    chavalah: I’ll have to disagree about Ned and Theon; Ned isn’t above killing when people break their oaths. Maybe, if Theon were younger, he wouldn’t kill him but just “punish” him somehow, but the consequences are meant to be dire. GRRM talks about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADR39E0pxzs (And of course, Tywin isn’t Ned anyway. He isn’t above killing the children of traitors.)

    It isn’t about Ned being above killing Theon. It’s about leverage. Once you kill him that leverage is worthless. They view Theon as the heir to Pyke. You don’t kill something you can use to your advantage.

    He could just as easily send Theon to the Wall, but I don’t see that happening either.

    chavalah: Are those plans really in the works yet? So far Robb hasn’t alienated the Freys by breaking his marriage contract. We’ve seen scenes where Roose is put off by some of Robb’s behaviors, but we have no proof that he’s in cahoots with Tywin yet. And again, if I were Tywin fighting a losing war that he says he’ll be most remembered by, I’d use all my assets, no matter how seemingly small.

    Yes those plans are in the works. Littlefinger told him Tyrion’s plan to free Jaime. He has a spy in Robb’s camp. The surrender of the Crag is Tywin’s doing. It’s a trap. Not sure if the show will make it a battle type of trap or simply a trap to try and get Robb in a situation away from his mother. I imagine his orders are to make it as convenient as possible for Robb and Jeyne to hook up. Knowing how Robb’s honor would do the rest.

  246. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    chavalah: Maybe I give too much credit to book Tywin. :P I see him as understanding that Sansa’s worth more, politically, than Jaime because she can buy an army through marriage and Jaime is just one general. Most characters don’t see this, frankly, because they’re short-sighted.

    In general yes. But he sees Jaime as his sole heir.
    Still it is Sansa or Arya of Winterfell who can buy an army, not noble girl from a small keep somewhere in the north. Frey has to pay people to take his off him.

  247. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Anne:
    Pure speculation
    1 – Cat + sword = hand.From the look on Jaime’s face he wanted Cat to kill him, spent some time goading her into it.What worse fate than maiming him and then setting him free? and
    2 – Would Theon have turned so evil if Dagmar had not been there to encourage him and egg him on?

    Anne I thought exactly the same u hint in point 1.

  248. Mean25
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Alan:
    I generally defend the showrunners,

    Fanboy will fanboy. D&D are gods and can do no wrong.

    Alan:

    I will give you the First Season of GOT, but that’s kind of a cheat, right?I mean, you are basically acknowledging the producers did a great job.

    Yeah, you can’t like season 1 and think that D&D messed up season 2. That would make fanboy brain hurt.

  249. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Tywin saw Arya in a pen, he didn’t see her being tortured. Pretty significant difference, especially when buckets of rats strapped to your chest and flaming torches are involved. He also didn’t watch her reaction to the suffering of fellow prisoners, which still isn’t the same as being tortured yourself. Why should she care about the suffering of Lannister men? Less soldiers to fight her northern countrymen.

    (Those scenes during and after watching the prisoner torture were some of my favorite Arya scenes this season, btw. Harrowing, yes, but I think it built up her character–the spirit you allude to–in a way that the Tywin/Arya scenes haven’t. As westeros.org said in their review: “There’s no real sense of physical danger in Harrenhal for Arya, a fact that is actually an important factor in the significant developments in Arya’s character in A Clash of Kings; it all feels a little too remote, too much an intellectual game of cat-and-mouse, to carry much tension for me.”)

    And once Balon rebels, what’s the point in keeping Theon safe? Going by GRRM’s video, the traditional response is to punish child hostages if and when their parents rebel.

    Tyrion’s plan to free Jaime was sending Littlefinger to Catelyn and saying “yo, we’ll trade your two daughters for Jaime.” It had nothing to do with spying, it had to do with appealing to Cat as a mother.

    OK, so I can buy that Roose is up to something, quite possibly working with Tywin already. He’s sent his lovely bastard to Winterfell, after all. I’m not sure what you mean by the Crag being a trap. If the Crag was a trap in the books, it’s because he told the Westerlings to cozy up to Robb so that he’d forsake his marriage agreement. As far as I understand, Jeyne Westerling has been completely replaced by Talisa on the show. It’s possible she’s a spy working for Tywin? Though we can’t say that for sure at this point.

    We’re getting bogged down in specifics here, which for me still don’t mean much. Specific circumstances can change all the time, after all. You believe that Tywin wouldn’t invest a lot of energy in Arya unless he knew for certain she was Arya Stark. I believe that, first of all he’d invest in finding out exactly who she is at this point, and if she’s any northern noble he’d look for a way to make use of her. I also think it’s beyond ridiculous if he doesn’t suspect or interrogate her about this poison dart attempt on his life that he thinks happened. The situation with the north is obviously going to be tumultuous for some time, especially if he has plans with Roose and others to cause unrest. Any northern hostage could be useful to him, whether immediately or sometime in the future.

  250. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    The_Rabbit01:
    ASOIAF Fan,

    yeah, pretty much agreed.
    I do not like to talk about other fans opinions and especially feelings – but I must sayI have noticed that some people tend to ignore all ofobjectif and real-life stuff going on in the production.
    I can not be thankful enough to the whole production team (producers, acotrs, writers, crew, extras, etc..) and their efforts.

    Yes, but that same workload is what makes each new decision they have to take regarding a narrative solution for any given change of a character arc much more dangerous.

    Everytime they depart from the book there’s a change of getting it right, or fucking up royally. But thing is IMO is much easier to fuck up than to get it right, because they have lots of stuff to do, and much little time than Martin had to think about a solution for a plot problem.

    Now theres lot’s of changes they have to do because of the shortage of time, budgeterial issues, and adaptation for a new media concerns, so, in the cases were there’s no really need to make a change, I’d stick to ther book whenever possible.

    Now ofc the issue is if a given change was really needed or not, and if it was succesful or not. So we have 4 types of changes ;)

    Until last episode most of the changes we’ve seen in hte 2 seasons were needed, and most of them were also succesful, imo…but we just got some that were not only not needed, but pretty bad. I’m a bit worried because it may be the start of a trend, but well, we’ll have to wait ’till season 3 to really see it.

  251. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Mean25: Fanboy will fanboy. D&D are gods and can do no wrong.

    Yeah, you can’t like season 1 and think that D&D messed up season 2.That would make fanboy brain hurt.

    Now, THAT’s a strawman argument. Do you understand what it means now or are you going to keep using the term in ignorance?

    When did I say that you had to like both seasons? The discussion was over how good an adaptation Game of Thrones was.

    Do you have anything more than “fanboy”? A logical argument? Tell you what, you keep making arguments based on name-calling, and the rest of us will have an adult conversation.

  252. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: Still it is Sansa or Arya of Winterfell who can buy an army, not noble girl from a small keep somewhere in the north.

    Or perhaps a northern girl trumped up to look like Sansa or Arya Stark. :P If not an army, then some allegiance from the north, at least. Like I said earlier, situations can change all the time.

  253. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Alan: especially when you screw up the actual work you were looking for.(And no, I don’t care if English is your first language or not, if you’re going to compare someone’s defense of something to committing sexual acts, you should probably know how to spell it).

    When you say “work” you meant “word”??? Haha don’t tell me is not funny you rebuke someone for not spelling a word right and u misspell the word “word”!! Epic!!! :P

    Also, I don’t think you really got what that dude was saying…when he wrote “felicitating” he meant “congratulating” or more precisely “acknowledging”, not “performing fellatio” (“fellationing”??? “fellatoniating”????) wich I guess is what u refered to as “committing sexual acts”…

    Omg this is too funny!!! XDD

  254. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    chavalah:Pretty significant difference, especially when buckets of rats strapped to your chest and flaming torches are involved. He also didn’t watch her reaction to the suffering of fellow prisoners, which still isn’t the same as being tortured yourself. Why should she care about the suffering of Lannister men? Less soldiers to fight her northern countrymen.

    They chose 1 prisoner a day to torture. That was to get the other prisoners to spill their secrets. Arya is being subjected to this right now. As Tywin is watching her.
    And if you subjected her to the torture, what use is a dead noble girl worth then…nothing. Plus you pissed off the family even more for torturing the child.

    He kills children to eliminate a household, he doesn’t torture kids or kill individual kids. There is a difference. One makes you feared, the other makes you weak.

    chavalah: As westeros.org said in their review: “There’s no real sense of physical danger in Harrenhal for Arya, a fact that is actually an important factor in the significant developments in Arya’s character in A Clash of Kings; it all feels a little too remote, too much an intellectual game of cat-and-mouse, to carry much tension for me.”)

    I’m sorry but I find their complaints nauseating. I quit reading that review a long time ago. So basically they would rather see child abuse every other scene rather than Tywin and Arya together. I’d much rather see Arya learn the skills of deception than watch her learn how to take a beating.

    chavalah: And once Balon rebels, what’s the point in keeping Theon safe? Going by GRRM’s video, the traditional response is to punish child hostages if and when their parents rebel.

    Punish yes, kill no. You don’t destroy your leverage.

    chavalah: OK, so I can buy that Roose is up to something, quite possibly working with Tywin already. He’s sent his lovely bastard to Winterfell, after all. I’m not sure what you mean by the Crag being a trap. If the Crag was a trap in the books, it’s because he told the Westerlings to cozy up to Robb so that he’d forsake his marriage agreement. As far as I understand, Jeyne Westerling has been completely replaced by Talisa on the show. It’s possible she’s a spy working for Tywin? Though we can’t say that for sure at this point.

    Jeyne Westerling isn’t replaced by Talisa….TALISA IS JEYNE WESTERLING. She is posing as a nurse spying on Robb’s movements. Her letters home probably indicate there is an attraction going on and her parents are passing on those observations to Tywin. Jeyne/Talisa wouldn’t know it is a trap, but her parents at the Crag do. Plus if Roose is talking to Tywin he would have passed along his observations about the two to Tywin as well.

    chavalah: I believe that, first of all he’d invest in finding out exactly who she is at this point, and if she’s any northern noble he’d look for a way to make use of her.

    I’m saying he is invested in finding out who she is at this point to see if there is a way to make use of her. So far he has nothing. He is trying to gain her trust and trick her into making mistakes to find out. If she is highborn it gains him nothing if she is spoiled.

  255. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    I’m listening to the Cast of Kings podcast (wich is great btw, a reader and a non-reader giving great, non-spoilerish insight…last week’s had Myles McNutt wich was awesome) and the non-reader just said the Jaime escape scene was the dumbest scene from all the show ’til now ;)

  256. Two Feathers
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    The_Rabbit01: I can not be thankful enough to the whole production team (producers, acotrs, writers, crew, extras, etc..) and their efforts

    Thanks on behalf of the extras for your appreciation. Not long now til we get to back to Westeros . May the old gods protect us from treachery and may the law of guest right never be broken. “The King in the North”.

  257. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    If you’re going to be the grammer police…learn how to spell “which”.

  258. Remaal
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    The 2 non-readers on Bores, Gore, and Swords podcast called “A Man Without Honor” the worst episode ever on GOT, which surprised the hell out of me. I guess there’s no accounting for taste.

  259. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    Pau Soriano,

    If you’re going to be the grammer police…learn how to spell “which”.

    I think you don’t get it lol, I’m the anti-grammar police!!

    I can’t careless about spelling, specially about other ppls spelling…thats why I was making fun of the grammar-nazi that was rebuking the other dude for misspelling “fellationing” when he said “felicitating” (meaning congratulating!!) AND in the process he misspelled the word word that he used in “use the right word”!!! can’t get better than this!!!

    If you don’t find this funny thers something really wrong with you man :P

  260. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: I think you don’t get it lol, I’m the anti-grammar police!!I can’t careless about spelling, specially about other ppls spelling…thats why I was making fun of the grammar-nazi that was rebuking the other dude for misspelling “fellationing” when he said “felicitating” (meaning congratulating!!) AND in the process he misspelled the word word that he used in “use the right word”!!! can’t get better than this!!!If you don’t find this funny thers something really wrong with you man :P

    I don’t. I find it annoying.

  261. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    I mean one dude says “felicitating” (meaning congratulating), and the other thinks he meant “giving a blowjob” and says “I don’t care if english is not your first language, you should use the right work if you refer to others as committing sexual acts”!!

    Can’t stop laughing in real life haha :-D

  262. The Rabbit
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Two Feathers,

    I know that an invitation for a wedding would cheer you up ;)

  263. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: I don’t. I find it annoying.

    Sigh I don’t mean MY posts I meant THE OTHER DUDE post!

    I understand you find me annoying, but if you don’t find that dude mistakes funny is because your sense of humour is severely lacking ;)

  264. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    Still annoying.

    I’ll admit to a chuckle, but friendly correction would have been fine.
    I’ll also admit to misunderstanding what someone is trying to say sometimes, and find people trying to put a spotlight on it to make fun of someone else is just rude.

    I’m done with this discussion.

  265. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Arya is watching Lannister men she doesn’t care about being tortured. Meanwhile all Tywin is asking of her is to go about her duties. If she had something to do with the poison dart attack, what is encouraging her to spill the beans about what she knows about it? Their chat confirms to Tywin that she’s noble born, and the end.

    Like I’ve said before, there’s plenty of ways to forcefully interrogate without killing or maiming her. They could starve her for a few days, slap her around, lock her up. (Or perhaps they could torture Gendry or Hot Pie?) Once they find out who she is, they’ll stop. (Or if they find out she was part of the poison dart attack…well, like you say she’s noble born and an asset, so probably just some form of confinement while Jaqen dies.) So the family might be pissed off (most families in this story with hostages strewn around are.) Not much they can do about it. Surely most would consider some sort of deal to ensure their safety or return.

    I don’t agree with westeros.org on everything myself. Though I guess I’m more in the middle, because I’m able to find things I can get behind–and in most reviews, like the majority that continue to laud Tywin/Arya. For me, I find Arya’s canon arc more compelling than what’s been happening these last two weeks on the show. It’s not about child torture, but it’s about building up her spirit. She’s hardened by her suffering and the taskmasters that are cruel to her, and her angry list of revenge deaths strengthens her resolve and keeps her tied to her family in this place where she’s gone through a few different names by now. I think this helps lead her to the House of the Undying, where she learns some of these acts of deception while trying to carve out a new place for herself.

    And if this is all a little too heavy for tv, which it very well might be, I have to agree with another one of westeros.org’s suggestions; maybe she could have to endure minor verbal abuse and cuffs from others, and Tywin could not care so much about all of that, rather than just see him constantly fanboying her. Because the way it’s playing out on screen she doesn’t really seem to be in that much danger. Tywin even lets her get away with her occasional boldness. We’re straying dangerously close to the line here where Arya’s magical skills of being precocious save her from logical plot developments. No one else is safe. Sansa is being abused, Bran and Rickon had to run from a threat, Robb is in the middle of a war that’s unraveling. In the book, Arya was a “mouse,” largely alone in a place where death was all around her, save for three wishes from Jaqen. It’s not pretty or kind but it’s gritty and real in a way that makes me care more deeply.

    As for the Theon situation, yup, that’s why I’ve been repeating the word “punish” myself. Which is still a far cry from seating him in Pyke.

    That’s an interesting theory about Talisa. Look forward to watching next week. I won’t presume to argue for or against it. Like I said before, I don’t think the specifics of any of his other war strategies are that important to what I’m talking about with Tywin’s relationship to his cupbearer, because situations constantly change anyway.

  266. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    Pau Soriano,

    Still annoying.

    I’ll admit to a chuckle, but friendly correction would have been fine.
    I’ll also admit to misunderstanding what someone is trying to say sometimes, and find people trying to put a spotlight on it to make fun of someone else is just rude.

    I’m done with this discussion.

    Just like you are doing with me now?

    You should eat more sugar or something man, being so bitter can’t be good for your skin ;)

  267. Mean25
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Remaal:

    The 2 non-readers on Bores, Gore, and Swords podcast called it the worst episode ever on GOT, which surprised the hell out of me. I guess there’s no accounting for taste.

    Why, as a reader I feel the same, and friends that watch GoT, also didn’t like this one very much. I hate when they ask me to explain illogical things to them, and the only thing I can say is ‘sorry I don’t understand it either, character wasn’t that dumb, it didn’t happen that way in the book’. One even said he will not watch it anymore, but I hope he will reconsider. And now even the ratings drop slightly.
    Fingers crossed next season we see more Bryan Cogman episodes and less D&D.

    Alan
    Do you have anything more than “fanboy”?A logical argument?

    Says a person who calls people he disagrees with purist. You can’t compell a fanatic with logic ergo fanboy.

  268. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    I liked it as a TV series.

    my non book reading friends iked it too.

    DEAL WITH IT!

  269. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz:
    I liked it as a TV series.

    my non book reading friends iked it too.

    DEAL WITH IT!

    Cool, so because you liked it and your friends liked it this othe guy has to like it??

    Yes, I see the logic there err…

    Sorry MEAN25, this guys liked it…DEAL WITH IT! :P

    PS: And dont ever dare dislike something this guys like!! thank god you have his facebook page now so you can ask him what you should think about stuff AND their permission to post your thoughts in here…DEAL WITH IT!

    XD

  270. nohonor
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Extra emotional Engagement review!

    Click while the link is hot!

    http://imgur.com/a/bFeKt#0

  271. Two Feathers
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    The Rabbit:
    Two Feathers,

    I know thatan invitation for a wedding would cheer you up ;)

    Ah yes, I love weddings, great music and a friendly welcome. Sometimes a punch up can spoil the reception at these big family affairs, but I think our hosts will have good security on the doors.

  272. Knurk
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    davidjones2492:
    Is there anyone else who thinks that Jon’s capture by the wildings will later be revealed to be part of Qhorin’s plan.

    I can imagine a brief flashback at the end of the season following Qhorin’s death where he is seen to order Jon to allow himself to get captured and infiltrate the wildings.

    I was more thinking that Qhoring used Jon without Jon’s knowledge: he knows Jon won’t kill her, so then he lets Jon get lost with his prisoner. He knows that when Jon is lost there is a good chance he will walk into a wildling-trap, and that may be the plan Qhorin has in mind for Jon. On top of that: there is a chance D&D want the audience to think Jon is in fact a turncloak at the end of this season, only to pull the rug right under them when Jon escapes the wildlings next season to save Castle Black and keeps his oath to the NW.

    Pau Soriano,

    I can’t see much humour in that quite frankly. Guy made a typo in an excellent rebuttal against someone who made a bad argument and using the wrong words in it.

  273. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: When you say “work” you meant “word”??? Haha don’t tell me is not funny you rebuke someone for not spelling a word right and u misspell the word “word”!!Epic!!! :P

    Also, I don’t think you really got what that dude was saying…when he wrote “felicitating” he meant “congratulating” or more precisely “acknowledging”, not “performing fellatio” (“fellationing”??? “fellatoniating”????) wich I guess is what u refered to as “committing sexual acts”…

    Omg this is too funny!!!XDD

    It is pretty funny I had a typo when I was criticizing a misspelling. Typical of me.

    However, since this is not the first reference he’s made in posts to “fanboys” sucking up to the producers so much it is like a sexual act, I am pretty sure I am right here.

  274. DS
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan:
    TheBlackFlame,

    Can you point me to a tv show (even a movie) adapted from a book more faithful than game of thrones is to a song of ice and fire ?
    Interview with a vampire, millenium trilogy the original not the US garbage, hunger games, dexter, justified, True blood, lord of the rings, some of them are called faithfull adaptations but none come close to Game of Thrones.
    Legend of the Seeker maybe?

    You are absolutely correct, the producers for dexter stated that they only got the starting point for dexter from the source material and that they were not going to follow anything in it, and True Blood started from season 1 changing very important plots from the book.

  275. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Says a person who calls people he disagrees with purist.You can’t compell a fanatic with logic ergo fanboy.

    I don’t consider the term “purist” to carry negative connotations. Fanboy does.

    As for this line: “You can’t compell a fanatic with logic ergo fanboy” — using “ergo” does not really make it logic.

    Try again.

  276. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Alan: It is pretty funny I had a typo when I was criticizing a misspelling.Typical of me.

    However, since this is not the first reference he’s made in posts to “fanboys” sucking up to the producers so much it is like a sexual act, I am pretty sure I am right here.

    It is funny ’cause you misspelled the word “word” XD

    And I don’t know the other dude, and maybe he did use the term “sucking up” on another post, but in this caseI think just meant that “he could go on with more movie examples but that you would not congratulate him anyway for them so why bother”….I bet he’s from a latin-language speaking country (prolly french or spanish) were “felicitating”, wich is word in english that it’s not used much, would refer to a word that is much more used (felicitar, Félicitations, etc)

    I just felt compelled to call you on it because I didn’t like your reference to having to spell right even if english is not our mother language…we do what we can man, let us speak even if our grammar is not the best ;)

    Knurk:

    Pau Soriano,

    I can’t see much humour in that quite frankly. Guy made a typo in an excellent rebuttal against someone who made a bad argument and using the wrong words in it.

    Oh man I missed you!…they typo is not the really funny part, is confusing “felicitating” with “fellationating” and telling him to speak proper english even if it’s not his mother tongue, when he was in fact using proper english, whereas he was not…but you already know that ;)

  277. Alan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: It is funny ’cause you misspelled the word “word” XD

    And I don’t know the other dude, and maybe he did use the term “sucking up” on another post, butin this caseI thinkjust meant that “he could go on with more movie examples but that you would not congratulate him anyway for them so why bother”….I bet he’s from a latin-language speaking country (prolly french or spanish) were “felicitating”, wich isword in english that it’s not used much, would refer to a word that is much more used (felicitar, Félicitations, etc)

    I just felt compelled to call you on it because I didn’t like your reference to having to spell right even if english is not our mother language…we do what we can man, let us speak even if our grammar is not the best ;)

    Well, since you are not a native English speaker, a tip: no one uses felicitate, well, ever, in modern English. At least not in America. Felicity, felicitations once in a while, sure. But not that.

    I’m generally not a grammar nazi (though it drives me crazy), and would usually never do it with foreigners, but there’s been a lot of posts that basically degenerate and attack people with commentary like “fanboy” and yes, imagery of someone giving fellatio to the producers.

    He made a post. People pointed out logical inconsistencies. Instead of arguing back, he calls people names and claims they are illogical.

    I tend not to give people like that the benefit of the doubt. So I was kind of a dick back. And look! Karma got me.

  278. Knurk
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: It is funny ’cause you misspelled the word “word” XD

    Pau Soriano: they typo is not the really funny part,

    ;)

    Anyway, useless discussion. Let’s move on.

  279. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Alan: I don’t consider the term “purist” to carry negative connotations.Fanboy does.

    As for this line:“You can’t compell a fanatic with logic ergo fanboy” — using “ergo” does not really make it logic.

    Try again.

    “Purists” the way it’s now being used here does carry negative connotations. I really noticed that starting last week, started looking at the post-show thread and right off the bat people were like “Oh, can’t wait to see how the changes drive the purists crazy!” Which I found to be an incredibly annoying way to try to undercut the perceived opposition.

    And I say this as a confirmed fanboy. ;-)

  280. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    chavalah,

    I guess we will just need to agree to disagree, because I just don’t see Tywin fanboying Arya. I see him manipulating her into trusting him.

    I think there are plenty of driving forces for this character without needing taskmasters being cruel to her to harden her spirit. The only reason she is safe is because she has Jaqen as a safety net. She was in real danger last episode so I find westerns.org’s argument saying she isn’t lame.

    No, you seat Theon on the Seastone chair to steal the claim. That’s why you keep him alive. Balon already gave up on Theon and was grooming Asha. It wasn’t fear of punishment of Theon that kept Balon from rising up before Ned’s death. Balon would have attacked the North even if Theon hadn’t returned to him.

  281. fuelpagan
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: Just like you are doing with me now?

    If you think I was making fun of you I apologize. That was not my intent.

  282. chavalah
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    I guess we’ll have to disagree on the Theon (or more generally, child hostage) issue, too, because GRRM emphasized punishing the child, not raising him to power, which seems a bit contradictory. Of course that ship with Theon has sailed. :)

    I liked the Tywin/Arya scenes at first, but where you see some sort of progression, I see them basically having the same (well-acted) conversation over and over again. The whole issue with Lorch last week, misaddressing a raven (where was the maester?) and letting Arya escape into a yard of Lannister men who didn’t try to grab her is where it started to feel contrived, like they were building her up to be a “badass” stereotype for Tywin to admire and even use to tear down his own men. If this was his attempt to manipulate her into trusting him I don’t think it worked (maybe she admires him in a way, but she sure as hell doesn’t trust him.) And I didn’t think she was in that much danger, either–certainly not overt danger, like in the book. If she had tried to kill him then and there, yes. If Tywin decided to punish her boldness, yes, but obviously he didn’t because he was still too amused by it. Things remained the same. And in the context of the broader show, it ate up time that could be used to flesh out other main characters and plots from the book.

    Personally, I think my consensus at the end of all this was that the first few Tywin/Arya scenes were more spread out, and that we didn’t get into the murky waters of Tywin suspecting she’s a noble or ignoring that she might have played a part in this strange poison dart attack. I’m assuming their last encounters will be next week before Tywin goes to King’s Landing.

  283. andrea
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: we do what we can man

    I know!
    Vos no parecés tener muchos problemas eh? Ojalá pudiera escribir exactamente como quisiera… pero me da tanto trabajo!!!

  284. Joop Stroop
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6nr8XDccHQ

    The animated guys’ review

    Really like these guys’ reviews.

  285. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 15, 2012 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    The 1997 BBC Miniseries of Ivanhoe.

  286. Langkard
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    When considering Tywin’s comments about his cup-bearer (Arya) being noble born, remember that he need not have been talking about a major house. A girl from any of the hundreds of minor houses is noble as well. He knows only that she is from the North and is probably noble.

    Arya told him she is from Barrowton when he questioned her. So maybe he thinks she is a minor member of House Dustin. Or she could be a member of House Stout of Goldgrass which is sworn to House Dustin. Or perhaps she could be a member of any of the many minor houses in the Southwestern portion of the North, fostered with House Dustin. The possibilities are many, without her having to be from a major house and thus raising his suspicions that she might be someone relatively important.

  287. fuelpagan
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    chavalah: I guess we’ll have to disagree on the Theon (or more generally, child hostage) issue, too, because GRRM emphasized punishing the child, not raising him to power, which seems a bit contradictory. Of course that ship with Theon has sailed. :)

    You almost had me convinced that Ned would punish Theon if Balon rebelled. I just don’t see Ned actually punishing a son for the actions of a parent. If he felt that way he would never have told Cersei that he knew the truth so she could protect her kids. He wouldn’t have had a problem going after Dany that caused the rift between him and Robert.

    For me Ned’s goal in taking Theon was more than just a hostage. It was to raise him away from that culture in hopes of influencing a change in the Iron Islands when Theon took his seat. Just as Balon had feared. If Balon had rebelled when Ned was still in power, it would have just expedited the agenda.

    It may have been general practice to punish the child for the actions of the parent. I just don’t see Ned doing it.

    chavalah: If this was his attempt to manipulate her into trusting him I don’t think it worked (maybe she admires him in a way, but she sure as hell doesn’t trust him.)

    The previous scenes I felt were just Tywin starting to notice something special about her and was more about mocking his own men then it was fanboying her. This last scene was about testing her and trying to get her to open up, He shows her he knows she is lying, yet doesn’t punish her for it. In a way saying, “I know you’re lying, but I understand you’re afraid, it’s ok.”

    And of course it isn’t going to work, because it’s Arya. That doesn’t mean it is out of character for Tywin to take this approach rather than a more direct method, (which wouldn’t work either.) Trust is the only way Arya ever reveals her secret. I don’t ever recall her spilling the beans because she was afraid.

  288. Alan
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Jordan Healey:
    Alan,

    The 1997 BBC Miniseries of Ivanhoe.

    I will have to take your word on it. It’s been a long time since I read and I’ve never seen the BBC version.

    So, at best, we’ve got one, 15 years ago. Based on a 366 page book with 270 minutes of run time.

    Any more? I’m not saying the adaptation has been slavishly faithful; it hasn’t. (Whether or not that’s a good thing is a question for another day). But in terms of adaptations, it’s been more faithful than the average and I would say in the Top 10% of things I’ve seen.

    Heck, look at something like Jurassic Park. Man, I was furious at the changes in that movie. In retrospect, it’s still a kick ass movie.

  289. fuelpagan
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    What really bugs me about the westeros.org review is the idea it is important for Arya to be in physical danger in order to motivate her. I just don’t see it as necessary. They completely overlook the fact that we are actually finally getting to see Tywin the motivator. The books talk about how he was this great motivating force that made him a great Hand of the King, You don’t get that way by being a one trick pony. It comes from being able to read people and knowing how to motivate them. He reads Arya and knows to the only way to get secrets from her is to gain her trust. And he is right, not that she would actually ever tell him, but it is the only way Arya volunteers to tell someone her true identity. We see him motivate Amory by insulting him to get him to improve. All he needs to do to motivate the Mountain is let go of the leash. I think what we are gaining with the Tywin/Arya scenes are far more than anything we are losing.

  290. Maxwell James
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it, but I’d nominate Lonesome Dove – a terrific and mostly faithful adaptation. Strangely forgotten nowadays, as it was absolutely huge when it came out.

    That said, the dearth of answers to your question is a pretty good indicator of Game of Thrones’ quality.

  291. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Jordan Healey:
    Alan,

    The 1997 BBC Miniseries of Ivanhoe.

    That was brilliant, although I actually think it wasn’t as faithful because they gave Brian de Bois-Guilbert a much more haunting backstory than he has in the books! He and Susan Lynch as Rebecca really stole the show!

    Another wonderful adaptation that managed to be both faithful to the book and improve upon it was Curtis Hansen’s “L.A. Confidential”, which I find in many ways to be even better than James Ellroy’s novel.

    And there is also “The Jewel in the Crown” – adapted from a long, complicated series of novels dealing with the politics of pre-Independence India (which might as well be Westeros for lots of people who don’t have a connection to India), many different characters, and on-location shooting. (Also, Charles Dance was the “romantic lead” of that series, although he didn’t appear until halfway through at the earliest.)

  292. Alan
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James:
    Alan,

    It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it, but I’d nominate Lonesome Dove – a terrific and mostly faithful adaptation. Strangely forgotten nowadays, as it was absolutely huge when it came out.

    That said, the dearth of answers to your question is a pretty good indicator of Game of Thrones’ quality.

    I haven’t seen Lonesome Dove in years. It was so incredibly big.

    The bigger picture, here, as you point out, is that the standard people are using for adaptations is too high. It’s for a good reason — they really, really, really care about the source material.

    That’s great. But the number of changes, the severity of changes, like everything, should be viewed in context. And this adaptation, even with the recent adjustments, is both better executed and more faithful than most. At least so far.

    I’m not sure why I keep beating the drum. The reality is, arguing with logic here is a mistake. It’s an emotional issue, and one of perception. Appealing on fact based arguments is a lost cause (just look at how much outrage there is over facts changed from the books… that actually weren’t different from the books).

    Movies and television experiences are greatly altered by the attitudes of people watching. This is why there’s so much effort to keep the viewer “in the story” and to not have small sound, visual or continuity errors that remind the viewer that this is a(n imperfect) work.

    I’m not saying either attitude is correct. Certainly, the more positive one — which lets you forgive missteps or changes and enjoy the really great parts of the show — leads to much more personal enjoyment. But if you can’t shift your point of view, you can’t.

  293. chavalah
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    And there’s the crux of it. She’ll never trust him. And I agree that more direct means of interrogation wouldn’t work on her, either, but I still don’t buy that he wouldn’t at least try. And if he does find out she’s Arya Stark, as some reviewers seem to think might happen, then it’ll either drastically change her story or lead to more ridiculous amounts of nothing. If he doesn’t, then we still had to wade through all that talk of northern nobles and poison dart assassination attempts. It’s all turned into a dead end.

    To me, the producers plopped the stone of putting two characters played by two incredible actors down in the show plot, but then it rippled out of control. We’ve had some great non-canon scenes between characters, like with Robb and Jaime, which were more contained and believable. The first few with Tywin and Arya could suffice.

    I interpret the “danger” of her canon storyline differently than you do. She isn’t just motivated by the violence she sees around her more regularly. I think it hardens her to the idea of death and suffering, which influences her overall story arc. It is also a glimpse for us, the audience, into the harrowing circumstances that peasant war prisoners have to deal with. But more importantly, she was a “mouse,” something insignificant and easily discarded. This certainly runs counter to the way she was brought up as a lady of Winterfell, and the way that she wants to see herself as someone who can be part of the action. This was the first time she saw herself this way, “the lone wolf without a pack,” which leads her to the Faceless Men, where she’s struggling with what’s left of her Stark identity and the prospect of becoming no one. She loses this with Tywin. Yes, she has to hide her Stark identity, but she’s no insignificant “mouse”–he’s constantly praising her abilities and seeing her as a person of note. Whether or not it’s partially a manipulation is irreverent; it’s still genuine praise, and it’s keeping Arya far more safe and protected than is usual in this gritty, realistic story. She hasn’t even taken on any of her new names since Arry. She’s pretty close to being Arya to the outside world.

  294. Maxwell James
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I think it’s fine to have high standards – commendable, even. It just needs to be matched with a sense of realism.

    In scope, scale, & setting, ASOIAF is far more challenging than any other work of literature that has been adapted for TV – and it’s being done on a budget that is roughly 2/3 that of ROME. Ivanhoe or Lonesome Dove or Pride & Prejudice (another good one) are incredibly simplistic by comparison.

    It’s easy as a passionate bookfan to forget this – but we shouldn’t. Because it’s pretty clear that most of the changes so far – not all, but most – are in response to the almost overwhelming world-building of the books. And while it’s basically cliche to say this by now – the challenge will just become more and more daunting.

    So in evaluating every change, I first ask myself: did they do this to manage the complexity? And then I ask: did they do this to make an individual episode or the overall story more cohesive? And/or to give meaningful work to one of the many excellent actors they’ve already cast?

    Then & only then do I decide if I like it or not – leaving myself a lot of leeway to change my mind later on, since a lot of these changes have long tails.

    But yeah, you’re right that this is an emotional issue, and not worth trying to have a logical debate over.

  295. Alan
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James:
    Alan,

    I think it’s fine to have high standards – commendable, even. It just needs to be matched with a sense of realism.

    In scope, scale, & setting, ASOIAF is far more challenging than any other work of literature that has been adapted for TV – and it’s being done on a budget that is roughly 2/3 that of ROME. Ivanhoe or Lonesome Dove or Pride & Prejudice (another good one) are incredibly simplistic by comparison.

    It’s easy as a passionate bookfan to forget this – but we shouldn’t. Because it’s pretty clear that most of the changes so far – not all, but most – are in response to the almost overwhelming world-building of the books. And while it’s basically cliche to say this by now – the challenge will just become more and more daunting.

    So in evaluating every change, I first ask myself: did they do this to manage the complexity? And then I ask: did they do this to make an individual episode or the overall story more cohesive? And/or to give meaningful work to one of the many excellent actors they’ve already cast?

    Then & only then do I decide if I like it or not – leaving myself a lot of leeway to change my mind later on, since a lot of these changes have long tails.

    But yeah, you’re right that this is an emotional issue, and not worth trying to have a logical debate over.

    I pretty much agree with everything you said. I think, given the challenges, that D&D and their crew have done an incredible job.

  296. andrea
    Posted May 16, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: Curtis Hansen’s “L.A. Confidential”,

    perfect, I agree, but not miniseries.


  • Recent Comments

  • Archives

    • 2014 (847)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •