Episode 18 – The Prince of Winterfell – Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

Another episode is in the books. My recap and reactions are below. Share your thoughts in the comments below.

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Clash of Kings. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ACoK yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book reader recap. Thanks!


Summary

Lots of action in King’s Landing this week, so let’s start there. Tyrion and Bronn discuss planning for the upcoming battle. Varys joins them. And the discussion turns to how ugly a siege can get. That night, Cersei and Tyrion share dinner where Cersei reveals that she has caught his whore. Cersei threatens to kill her if anything should happen to Joffrey. Tyrion thinks she is talking about Shae, but turns out it is Ros. Tyrion rushes back to his room to find Shae safe and sound. The next morning, Joffrey, Tyrion and Varys inspect the battle preparations. Joffrey promises that he will kill Stannis himself. Tyrion and Varys do the verbal equivalent of an eye roll. Varys then complements Tyrion on the way he’s played the game. He then reveals to him that Daenerys is alive and in Qarth. And she has dragons.

Over in Qarth, Dany and Jorah are on there own. Jorah has found a ship and wishes to sail for Astapor. Dany refuses to leave her children behind. She orders Jorah to take her to the House of the Undying.

Beyond the Wall, Ygritte takes Jon to Rattleshirt. He wants to kill him but Ygritte convinces him that Mance will want to talk to him. Qhorin has been captured as well, but the rest of his band is dead. Qhorin tells Jon that he can make their deaths worthwhile, if he can go undercover with the wildlings. To help with the ruse, Qhorin acts that he is furious at Jon for causing the death of his brothers.

Speaking of his brothers, Sam, Grenn and Dolorous Edd are busy digging in the snow when Grenn makes a discovery: a cache of dragonglass wrapped in the black cloak of a man of the Night’s Watch.

Robb Stark is on his way to or from the Crag, talking with Talisa. A rider comes up and delivers the news: his mother has released Jaime Lannister. Robb returns to camp and orders his mother be put under guard. That night, Robb and Roose converse and we learn that his bastard is a few days from Winterfell. Talisa enters the tent and Robb asks how she became a nurse. She tells the story of a slave in Volantis saving her brother’s life from a near drowning. Her and Robb then have sex.

Meanwhile, Brienne is escorting Jaime to King’s Landing. They bicker and argue over who can beat who in a fight and then set out by canoe.

Out at sea, Stannis and Davos sail towards King’s Landing. Stannis remarks that he admires Davos’ loyalty. He recalls the time he saved them all when Storm’s End was undersiege. Stannis promises Davos that he will become his Hand, once he wins the Iron Throne.

In Harrenhal, Arya learns that Tywin is riding out immediately. She attempts to find Jaqen so she can order Tywin killed, but he is out patrolling. When he returns, she asks him to kill Tywin immediately before he can attack her brother. Jaqen tells her he can’t do that, so she names a different name: Jaqen H’ghar. She refuses to unname him unless he helps her and her friends escape from Harrenhal. He agrees and tells her they will be able to walk out of the gate at midnight. That night, Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie wait for Jaqen, but he is nowhere to be found while the guards are standing by the gate. Arya decides to walk towards the gate and they realize that the guards are already dead. They walk out of Harrenhal.

Winterfell is where the episode opens and ends. At the open, we see Yara arriving with her men. Theon is disappointed that she has not brought a very large force. Yara says she isn’t staying, she is heading home and she wants Theon to come with her. Theon refuses. Later, Theon and Dagmer talk about paying the farmer “for his troubles”. Luwin overhears… and then sees Osha sneak into the crypts. Luwin goes down into the crypts where Osha is hiding with Hodor, Bran and Rickon.

What I Liked

Bringing it back to the books – The last couple episodes have veered quite a bit from the books, but this episode brought it back in a good way. I can now see where the writers are going with most of these storylines. Sure, the way they got there has been a bit different, but it looks like the end points are going to be the same.
“That’s the only time a man can be brave.” – A fantastic line that was cut from season one, gets brought back by the writers here, as something that Ned once told Robb. Maybe it loses some of its impact being told secondhand, but I was happy that it made it into the show in any case.
Tyrion and Bronn… and now Varys – Can we expand the old buddy comedy to include one more? Any combination of these three in a scene equals pure gold.
Arya gets clever – This was one of those great moments in the book and I loved seeing it on screen. Both Maisie and Tom played it well, with Arya’s glee at pulling a fast one on Jaqen and Jaqen getting increasinlgy annoyed. Yeah, there was no Weasel Soup incident in the show, but I don’t think that is such a great loss. And the way they handled Jaqen setting up their escape was pretty badass. Now, if they skip his face changing and him giving her the coin, I will cry foul. But I feel confident that Arya will run into Jaqen again before the end of the season.
Brienne and Jaime – Are these two great or what? Can’t wait until next season…

What I Didn’t Like

A slow burn – This episode was all about getting the pieces into place for the final two episodes. While I enjoyed it, not all that much happened. I think an episode like this shouldn’t be happening this late in the season. I imagine there were a few new viewers that kept waiting for the shit to hit the fan and it never did. Of course, we know that next week is the BIG episode, but I think the writer’s could have paced things a little better to try and get a little more action into this episode.
Cersei’s power play – While I enjoyed this scene (and other than Ros replacing Alayaya, it was ripped pretty much straight from the book) did anyone else think that the show version of Cersei is a bit contradictory? Just last week, she was lamenting how Joffrey is insane and uncontrollable and saying he is the “price for our sins”. Now she is all about protecting him at all costs, even going so far as to capture and beat the whore that she assumes her brother loves. In the book, Joffrey wasn’t nearly as cruel and Cersei supports him 100%, so this move made sense, but in the show, Joffrey is a complete despot while Cersei has been shown to doubt his sanity. This is the problem with making small changes in the story and characters; you lose consistency when you go back to the book for a later scene and the characters act in a way that seems incongruous with how they’ve been presented in the show so far.
Robb’s romance – As I was watching Talisa tell her story and seeing Robb’s reaction, I was thinking to myself, “Please don’t have sex, please don’t have sex.” I know that we have a ton of storylines to get to each week and so they can’t spend a lot of time building this up, but man, I really wish they would have had them sleep together next week, or even two weeks from now. We didn’t really get a sense that Robb was struggling with betraying his honor at all. The second they are alone together and sharing an intimate moment, the clothes are off. I think if they had ended their final scene tonight with the beginnings of a kiss, only to have Robb break if off, clearly wanting her but struggling to keep his word, it really would have sold this tragic love story. Then in a week or two, after some more time spent with these two and after the audience clearly understands that Robb is trying to stand strong but is obviously head over heels for this girl, then Robb can finally give in to his urges.

What did you all think of tonight’s episode? Share your thoughts below and also don’t forget to give the episode a rating in our weekly poll!


696 Comments

  1. MockinTheFlayedLion
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    I am just loving those Roose Bolton scenes!

  2. Solar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    not a lot seemed to happen this episode but it was still very entertaining. also, the trailer for next week looks EPIC.

  3. Hamilton
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    second!
    thats tottaly fucking awesome!

  4. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Blackwater looks a-fucking-mazeballs.

    No idea why the crew members kept tempering it down like it wasn’t going to be fucking epic television.

  5. Jack
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    I officially love Talisa…that was a great scene

  6. Jon Connington
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    good episode. no HuD? disappointed. Other then that it set up a lot. cant wait.

  7. J
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    That was my favorite episode of the season so far, though the Robb scenes with Jeyne/Talisa/whatever left me a bit cold, and I suppose I’m a bit disappointed by how Arya escaped Harrenhal.

    But everything else was fantastic.

  8. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Amazing episode, and next week looks to be incredible too. Wow, have to watch again.

  9. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    What happened to Arya’s coin?

  10. Lyn Corbray
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    no weasel soup… and im wondering how Jaqen will meet up with Arya again to do his face change? Other than that, good episode, set up next week really nicely

  11. SillyMammo
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    A bit disappointed that they decided to reveal the whereabouts of Bran and Rickon. Thought that they could have waited at least one more episode. Ah well, good episode!

  12. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    WEASEL SOUP? :(

  13. AshStorm
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    I still say I need to find me a Volantis woman. MMmmhmmm! :D

  14. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    J,

    I actually feel like most of the Robb/Jeyne and Jon/Ygritte scenes have fallen flat throughout the entire season. I don’t know if it’s because of the actors involved, or if it’s because we’re so unused to young love (or…abuse, I suppose) in the show, it just comes off as false.

    But they’re not my favorites. They’re not ruining the show for me, but they ain’t my faves. Give me more Arya Doing A Thing.

  15. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Wow… Wow….. Wow…..

    This is my favorite episode!

    Everything was amazing!

    I just want to touch on 2 things real fast.

    1). The Robb/Jeyne love scene was amaizing. It was emotionally and sexually intense yet playful and fun to watch. I loved it! Also, wow… Oona is one beautiful woman. Total eye candy. And Robb is one good looking stud. Look out True Blood!!! We got some beautiful love scenes to compete with you now!

    2). Looks like the Bran storyline isn’t that far changed from the books… Hello Meera/Jojen Reed. =)

    I can’t wait until 11pm to watch it again. This episode was soooo good. Damn… LOVED it!

  16. Bryon Blofstein
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    can’t wait for Black Water! best thing about the episode was the preivew of black water.

  17. Mean25
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Why did the writers try to include their own writing? Why? If you could write, you wouldn’t be making GRRM’s show.

  18. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    The calm before the storm. I love how they laid out the table for what should be a hell of a feast in the final two episodes. I particularly enjoyed the end, and I’m glad they ended on a “high note” this week with the Bran reveal. I can imagine non-book readers hugging each other and finally having reason to shout, “**** yeah!!”

    The scene with Robb and non-Jeyne dragged on a little too long, but I loved the beginning of it when she entered the tent. They did a nice job of building that relationship in a short amount of time.

    The scene with Tyrion and Cersei was brilliant. “And turn to ashes in your mouth.” Such great delivery!

    I missed Sansa this episode, but they had a lot to squeeze in a short amount of time.
    I’m sure we’ll see plenty of her next week.

    Despite the fact there was literally no action, I enjoyed the heck out of that episode, and the music was beautiful throughout. I sat through the entire credits just to revel in it after Bran’s reveal.

  19. J
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    I’m a bit surprised that some people said they were let down by this episode. I guess it was a very talk-y episode, but I really felt like the character interactions were superb and very true to the canon characters. The scenes with Varys and Tyrion, the Stannis and Davos scene, the Jorah and Dany scene and the Jaime and Brienne scene stand out in particular.

  20. milk
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    so shes not gonna be jeyne westerling? and i couldnt watch the trailer since i was on hbo go is it really really awesome like i hope it is?

  21. Azazelus
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    I love how they had Bran and co. double back to the crypt. Maybe there is hope for seeing the Reeds afterall!

    I love how they are building up events that will happen beyond this season… stuff like Ramsay, Jamie and Brienne’s journey, Robb’s secret marriage, etc.

    I’m pumped for the last two episodes, and now for season 3!

    Can someone let me know when they find the god of tits? What a great death that would be!

  22. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    AshStorm,

    I still say I need to find me a Volantis woman. MMmmhmmm! :D

    That is what I am saying…

    This man thinks Oona’s curves drive a man wild…

    This episode really was amazing!

  23. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Why did the writers try to include their own writing? Why? If you could write, you wouldn’t be making GRRM’s show.

    That’s a ridiculous statement. TV writing and epic novel writing are two different animals, and GRRM would be the first to tell you that. I’m sure next episode will be different from the books, too, and GRRM himself wrote the damn thing.

  24. Aziraphale
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Uhm…is it next Sunday yet? No? Is there something I can take so I can sleep ’til then? No? Fuck me, what’s a guy gotta do to fast forward time?

  25. Andrew
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    That was a really great episode. As a reader it doesnt effect me all that much, but I think it would have been cool to leave the Bran reveal till episode ten, but now it just makes me think they having something cool in store for them before the season is done!

    Its also always a pleasure when all tha fans screaming about the ruination of Jons storyline have to eat crow. Looks like we will still get our great halfhand scene.

    Jamie and Brienne are already looking like a fantastic duo; cant wait to see more of them!

  26. Winnie
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Brilliant dialogues this episode…loved Bronn and Tyrion’s banter…..some very good moments…..but feeling a little underwhelmed

  27. Mrs Wun
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    No HOTU till next week !!!!! Aaaack, nerd rage! D&D you are the biggest d-teases since the year of the false spring. Damn you, I am now your bitch.
    P.S. HOTU better be good :P

  28. Eric Fitch
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Maybe the best GoT episode yet.

  29. Gwalchmai
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    No Weasel Soup? I don’t see how they can do it now…and I don’t like it. That’s one of my favorite parts of the whole series.

    Other than that, an average episode. Obviously setting up a wild last two episodes.

  30. vntrlqst
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Why did the writers try to include their own writing? Why? If you could write, you wouldn’t be making GRRM’s show.

    Actually good sir, Mr. Beinoff has published a novel. “25th hour.” Perhaps you’ve heard of it? Spike Lee adapted it into a film.

  31. milk
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    J,

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    she needs something to do in the last 2 episodes

  32. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Jaqen giving Arya the coin must happen in the last episode but I think it will be early because she needs to find a ship to take her on the next bit of her journey. I think the next episode will be completely taken up with the Blackwater so the scenes with Arya, Dany and Jon will likely be the last episode of the season. Rob is pretty much done, Jaime is off with Brienne and not much else happens with Sansa anyway so I figure we won’t see much of them until next season. I am really looking forward to seeing how John and the Half Hand part ways.

  33. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    milk: 0, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    I love how they had Bran and co. double back to the crypt. Maybe there is hope for seeing the Reeds afterall!

    I love how they are building up events that will happen beyond this season… stuff like Ramsay, Jamie and Brienne’s journey, Robb’s secret marriage, etc.

    I’m pumped for the last two episodes, and now for

    Trailer was fantastic, and no, she’s not going to be Jeyne (not that it makes any differences). She’s the noble lady from Volantis who refused to live in a slave city any longer. It works for me. The story was a bit long-winded, but it seemed a satisfactory explanation. And knowing how Robb intends to rule and who his father was, it makes sense he would be drawn to someone with those ideals. They established that relationship well in about 10 minutes of footage.

  34. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Wow. What a great episode!

    Gemma’s Yara is so much fun. That was a great scene with Theon (Alfie is knocking out of the park as well).

    Tyrion’s scenes were amazing as well, Lena nailed it in the scene where she reveals she knows about his romance. What a masterfully-acted scene. You can see Tyrion trying to mantain control, trying not to show concern… just great. And a Pod sighting!

    Brienne/Jamie was fun. Can’t wait to see more of them. Wish there was more of Jon/Ygritte as well this episode. I think she realized the Halfhand’s plan.

    Micheal’s Roose Bolton is great. He conveys a lot with his expression. I enjoyed Talisa’s story (Oona really is a looker!) but felt underwhelmed by the sex scene lol. I guess I was expecting a bit more intensity in Robb’s first sex scene.

    Liam Cunningham is unbeliavably good. Dillane as well, those two paired up are fantastic.

    So yeah, great episode. Next week looks INSANE!

  35. vntrlqst
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Mean25,

    Actually good sir, Mr. Beinoff has published a novel. “25th hour.” Perhaps you’ve heard of it? Spike Lee adapted it into a film

  36. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Why did the writers try to include their own writing? Why? If you could write, you wouldn’t be making GRRM’s show.

    It’s kind-of necessary in a lot of cases…

  37. Aziraphale
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    My favorite bit, by the way, is when Tyrion was asking where the God of tits and wine is, and Varys replies of that Goddess of Fertility with 16 teats in Dorne(?).

    “We should sail there immediately!”

    Oh, Tyrion, you rock everyone’s world. Fact.

  38. Shock Me
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Another AWESEOME episode! Made much more sense than the book did.

  39. Bryon Blofstein
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Valar Morghulis will have happen!

  40. Mike Chair
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Maybe The House of the Undying will turn out to be a restaurant where you can buy Weasel Soup with an iron coin. I hope not because by the time anyone ever gets there they’ll STARVE TO DEATH!

  41. wargsareawesome
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Ok, that scene with Varys talking to Tyrion about Dany… was he trying to see if he should let Tyrion in on the whole “Young Griff”/Aegon thing? I think he might have been… Also, in the scene with Jaime and Brienne, was that the BwB on the bridge in the background. On another note, GREAT acting by Dinklage in the scene with Cersei and Daisy! And they actually kept one of Arya’s names the same! Additionally, I loved the look on Jorah’s face when Dany asked if he remembers when she stepped into the fire and he says he’ll never forget, as well as his expression when he tells her he would die for her… total shipping fuel! But all of that is nothing compared when she reaches out and touches his cheek. He’s all “must…not…react…to the fact that she is touching my cheek… must…not…let…feelings…show…” (he failed miserably at that last part though –the character, not the actor). Now THAT was shipping fuel! Actually, all of the interactions between Jorah and Dany in this episode were fuel for shippers…

  42. wargsareawesome
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Aziraphale:
    My favorite bit, by the way, is when Tyrion was asking where the God of tits and wine is, and Varys replies of that Goddess of Fertility with 16 teats in Dorne(?).

    “We should sail there immediately!”

    Oh, Tyrion, you rock everyone’s world. Fact.

    Not Dorne. They are part of Westeros and are implied to worship the Seven. It was the Summer Isles.

  43. cindyash
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Now that was a beautifully done love making scene. In fact, each couple scene was brillant – Dany and Jorah, Tyrion and Shea. Even Jaimie and Briene’s barbs were the beginning of a beautiful friendship. And yeah, its a slow episode, but its the calm before the storm and so much was built up. Excellent!

    I am remember reading the book, I somehow didn’t catch the romance between Robb and Jeyne until he revealed the secret marriage. Its possible I skimmed over it, but Im liking how they are setting this up. Even if she’s not Jeyne (and I wonder why they changed that) it works.

  44. Grinbomb
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Solar:
    not a lot seemed to happen this episode but it was still very entertaining. also, the trailer for next week looks EPIC.

    Yeah, the trailer for next week gave me chills. Only scenes for the Battle of the Black Water were shown, and from what I saw it looks fucking epic. They must have spent about half of the seasons budget on episode 9.

  45. MockingTheFlayedLion
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Seeing that Jaime/Brienne scene made me that much more exited for the next season. Foreshadowing anyone?

    Guys I just remembered. Neil Marshall directed episode 9. How awesome is that? I enjoyed the action scenes in Centurion, and that was also made with a “low” budget if my facts are not wrong.

  46. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    milk:
    so shes not gonna be jeyne westerling? and i couldnt watch the trailer since i was on hbo go is it really really awesome like i hope it is?

    Yes. Really really awesome.

  47. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    I just can’t believe Ros ruined another episode…. :)

    Only two episodes left. What am I suppose to do for a whole year?!?!

  48. Aziraphale
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    wargsareawesome,

    Thanks, I couldn’t remember which place Varys mentioned, I was taking a wild stab at it and guessed. I knew it was south, though, and Dorne’s to the south. Uh, Summer Isles is too, right? Ah, no matter…16-titted goddess, here we come!

  49. Michelle
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Bronn and Tyrion should have their own sitcom. One and a Half Man looks really promising…

  50. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Wow. I have a new favorite episode. That was an interesting one, yes? It seems that many of the conclusions to which people jumped after last week’s episode were wrong. We’ve had too little faith in Dan and Dave and their ability to veer off the book and then veer right back again.

    Qhorin and Jon can still be Qhorin and Jon as in the book, too!

    Brienne and Jaime. I was enthralled. We are in for a wild ride with those two!

    Roz is taking the place of Alayaya and Chataya together and she’s important to the plot! That’s going to put a burr in the Roz-haters. LOL

    Gemma Whelan is growing on me as Yara.

    Exposition from Stannis and he wasn’t even having sex with Davos at the time.

    Bronn is showing some independence from Tyrion. Foreshadowing, anyone? Still no idea if we’ll see a chain next week or not. But we’re definitely going to see some green glowing pig shit!

    Tyrion and Cersei. And evil, bitter, controlling Cersei is back with a vengeance. Too bad for her Tyrion is just too awesome.

    Tyrion and Varys. Wow. Varys: “If we’re going to play, you go first” Conleth Hill is Varys, completely.

    Well, is Talisa really Jeyne or not? We were leaning that way and now D&D poked us with some Talisa backstory. I’m confused.

    The Dany we all know and and love shone through the demanding, childish Dany for a moment tonight. I love that. “They’re the only children I’ll ever have.” Poor Jorah. He doesn’t have a chance.

    I think Roose Bolton is being set up nicely for next season. His growing suspicions that he might be on a losing team?

    Bran, Rickmon, Hodor and Osha are in the crypts. What if Luwin becomes the one to take Rickon, while Osha and Bran and Hodor go north? Does that mean no Reeds?
    I’m sure we’ll argue about that all week. Not much left to argue about since D&D tied up so many non-book things right back into the books again.

    All in all, a wonderful episode. How is it possible for Peter Dinklage to keep getting better? I’m continually amazed.

  51. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    MockingTheFlayedLion,

    Yeah the Jaime/Brienne scene was awesome…

    Love how he keeps calling her names.

    WTF man… Why do we have to wait a whole freaking year… Life is so unfair! =P

  52. Khal_Waldo
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Deborah:
    Jaqen giving Arya the coin must happen in the last episode but I think it will be early because she needs to find a ship to take her on the next bit of her journey.I think the next episode will be completely taken up with the Blackwater so the scenes with Arya, Dany and Jon will likely be the last episode of the season.Rob is pretty much done, Jaime is off with Brienne and not much else happens with Sansa anyway so I figure we won’t see much of them until next season.I am really looking forward to seeing how John and the Half Hand part ways.

    She doesn’t find a ship right away, I mean there was that whole “A Storm of Swords” thing.

  53. Mean25
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Trailer for Blackwater is the best part of this episode.
    Luwin knows?
    No weasel soup?

  54. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I actually liked Ros. It fit having her be the one Cersei goes after. My non-reader husband recognised her and felt bad for her.

  55. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Lyn Corbray:
    no weasel soup… and im wondering how Jaqen will meet up with Arya again to do his face change? Other than that, good episode, set up next week really nicely

    The title of the final episode this season is “Valar Morghulis” so we’ll find out in 2 weeks!

  56. Shock Me
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Looks like Arya leaves Harrenhal this episode and The Hound leaves King’s Landing in the next. Will they meet up this season or next? And an we get a Lord Beric?

  57. HumMis1349
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    cindyash:
    I am remember reading the book, I somehow didn’t catch the romance between Robb and Jeyne until he revealed the secret marriage. Its possible I skimmed over it, but Im liking how they are setting this up. Even if she’s not Jeyne (and I wonder why they changed that) it works.

    You didn’t catch it until it was revealed because it happened offscreen.

  58. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Khal_Waldo,

    I have the hardest time remembering what happens in each book. I thought it was at the end of this one. Hmmm… wonder how it will end now. What do you remember from the books?

  59. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Deborah:
    I actually liked Ros.It fit having her be the one Cersei goes after.My non-reader husband recognised her and felt bad for her.

    I’m always curious what non-readers know and don’t know. It seemed like it would be confusing to me to parade out Ros and make the connection that, “Oh, we know her and feel bad, but we also know Cersei nabbed the wrong lady.” Good to know your husband followed along!

    I find myself watching and thinking, “Make sure to mention Ned Stark again so everyone knows who his five (six) children are!” Perhaps I don’t give non-bookies enough credit. Shame on me…

  60. JamesL
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    They have not done Sansa and The Hounds relationship justice at all on the show. Actually they haven’t done Sansas entire storyline in A Clash of Kings justice at all. You would think with all the criticism they received last season for the lack of Sansa and the Hound stuff they would have corrected that this season and it looked like they were going to with that scene in the season finale last year but they didn’t and now that amazing moment they have together during the Battle of Blackwater with not have the nearly the impact it should next week.

  61. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Great episode! Question though, I watched the episode on HBOGO and did not see a preview for next week. Is Memorial Day gonna cause a delay and we’ll have to wait a week?

  62. Chicago Chris
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    The tv Arya is wayyyy less bad ass than the book Arya and that finally tonight bothers me. Why couldn’t they at least let her have that interaction with the guard on the rampart? Oh yeah, cause they didn’t do weasel soup and Jaquen didn’t give her her present. Well, yet. The way they did the boys gives me hope that they can ‘double back’ with J man too so to speak. I wanna see the scene with his ‘costume change!’ just , dudes, d and db, make Arya more bad asser please.

  63. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Why did the writers try to include their own writing? Why? If you could write, you wouldn’t be making GRRM’s show.

    Because it’s necessary when trying to condense an incredibly thick series of novels that take place primarily within the characters’ heads while simultaneously making it understandable to an audience unfamiliar with the material. Watch the GRRM-written episode from last year and notice how much even he has to paraphrase, adaptation inherently requires some creative license.

  64. Mrs Wun
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    vntrlqst,

    I agree. Thank you for giving a great book/movie it’s due kudos. LOVED IT. BTW I think Edward Norton would make good with plenty of characters in this series. Grey Worm would be fun.

  65. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    You lot are missing the most important point. We have a new contender for best looking undressed female.

  66. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Deborah: e until he revealed the secret marriage. Its possible I skimmed over it, but Im liking how they are setting this up. Even if she’s not Jeyne (and I wonde

    Ros is terrific. I was just messing.

  67. wargsareawesome
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Aziraphale:
    wargsareawesome,

    Thanks, I couldn’t remember which place Varys mentioned, I was taking a wild stab at it and guessed. I knew it was south, though, and Dorne’s to the south. Uh, Summer Isles is too, right? Ah, no matter…16-titted goddess, here we come!

    Yes, yes they are. In fact, they are VERY far south as you can see in this map http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Summer_Islands.png

  68. Michelle
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Another stellar episode. Is it next week yet?

  69. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Indeed, the calm before the storm.

    So Ros takes Alalaya’s part. As we all assumed/unassumed. Lena became crazy evil Cersei in that scene. I can’t wait till further seasons, because she is going to kill it.

    Talisa is still Talisa…

    Jaime and Brienne off on their really big adventure! Their chemistry is already sparking. But with thappireth be involved?

    We get our first romantic sex scene. Hello Oona! Gorgeous woman. When she was talking about the Rhoyne I was praying to the Seven that she would mention the turtles.

    Rattleshirt wasn’t as lame/skeletorish as I thought he would be. He seems certifiably nuts. Halfhand getting captured kind of takes out an iota of badassness though. Enh, condensing the story again.

    Yara/Theon scene was great. She actually cares about him but puts on a facade when around her men and her father.

    And I guess with the Ravens being killed, the whole Robb and Cat believing Bran and Rickon are dead is out the window. Not to mention the last scene of course. So is Robb and Cat going to hear about Bran and Rickon in episode 10? Or what was the point of killing the two boys. Just so he could save face with the Iron Men.

    No mention of the chain. But not going to count it out yet. Good to see Varys again. Yet another character that Dinklage’s Tyrion has great chemistry with. Nice that Dany is finally brought up in conversation on the other side of the narrow seas, her children as well. This suggests momentum of some kind.

    Joffrey and his red-smile for Stannis….punk.

    Stannis and Davos/great stuff. Loved hearing about Storm’s End and was surprised I couldn’t figure out what the reward was.

    Harrenhal: No revelation whether Tywin knows it was her or not. Loved her moment with Jacquen especially the slow approach to the gates as they find out the guards are impaled exactly where they were standing sentry. Great stuff. Her leaving Harrenhal seemed a bit rushed though.

    Quarth: good scene but the writers are blatantly dragging out the House of the Undying. For me this has been the weaker part of season 2. It seems like they are simply fast forwarding to season 3.

    Good episode overall. I was surprised to see my expectations were challenged. Overall this season needs to be watched in a marathon to appreciate the fast movement. It’s almost becoming like Lost where they leave a tease every week, a splinter of a scene carry out into the next episode.

  70. cindyash
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I guess I was expecting a bit more intensity in Robb’s first sex scene.

    How do you know it was his first?! He seemed to know what to do. :)

    I was worried how they were going to handle Arya’s journey which I found rather tedious in the book, and am really pleased how its progressed this season. And yeah, loved the third name, can’t wait for the coin and the Faceless Man.

  71. Lisa
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Couple of things bothered me about this episode…First just a personal preference of wanting to see the Weasel soup scene. Disappointed that did not go down.

    As for Tyrion’s scenes…splendid as usual…just somewhat disappointing that they’re just now getting around to having him plan for the siege. I’ve not yet seen any indication of the chain being built. Will it be part of the battle? Hoping so! They’ve really short-changed and underplayed Tyrion’s active role in planning the defense of Kings Landing.

  72. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    You lot are missing the most important point. We have a new contender for best looking undressed female.

    Oona wins this hands down… And the way it was directed and shot with passion and emotional connection really brought out her naked beauty. =)

  73. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark,

    All my non book reader friends end up calling me the next day to ask questions. When we read the books we had the appendixes (no one mock me please if I used that word incorrectly. Oh go ahead, mock away) that showed who belonged to what family and so on and we could refer back to them at any time to refresh our memories. My husband’s biggest issue is trying to understand the motivation for people doing what they do. Tonight his big question was why Cersei was so upset that Tyrion sent Marcella away. He thinks Cersei should accept it as the kind of thing that happens to people from the ruling class. I told him that Cersei thought she was in control of everything so Tyrion coming in and taking that decision away from her was what really upset her. Of course, I am just talking out of my ass but it was the best I could come up with.

  74. Renaud Besse-Bourdier
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Mean25,

    The episode was written by GRRM I think, so…

  75. Skipjack
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    I think we needed more screen time with Robb over the course of the season to have him wrestle a bit with his conscience. He is going on and on this ep. about how great and honorable his father was, and we see the burden of living up to his memory, but we don’t see the conflict in how he might not want to follow the road spread out before him. Nothing about how he’s now a king and can make his own rules, or at least that maybe he can’t be as honorable as his father, because he’s not his father. Either way, it felt rushed. And also for them to declare their feelings and immediately peel off felt anachronistic. At least they made it look like she knew what she was doing, but again there wasn’t anything to show that Talisa had her own mind about their relationship. Oh well.

    Still looking forward to next week, just not with the grip of obsession I had been last year. The stakes in Stannis’ attack feel lower than in the book somehow, mostly since show!Stannis is such a cipher. I wish we got a sense that he might bring justice to the Lannisters, but justice seems to be a matter of convenience for him.

  76. Dolph Lundgren
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    Trailer for Blackwater is the best part of this episode.
    Luwin knows?
    No weasel soup?

    If your enjoyment of the show is directly tied into seeing things happen that you read about (and who doesn’t love being able to predict each and every moment of a tv show?), then you should probably just stop. They’ll keep changing things, and the rest of us will keep loving it.

    “if you could write you wouldn’t be writing GRRM’s show.” Very insightful. Cause, like, HBO is where talentless hacks go to waste away, right?

  77. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    cindyash,

    Jeyne was Robbs first. At least thats how I read the scene. As soon as Jeyne mounted him, he was done. She just looked at him with a cute look and kissed him basically letting him know it is okay. This is just my opionion of course but honestly thats how I read it…

  78. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    cindyash,

    Jeyne was Robbs first.At least thats how I read the scene.As soon as Jeyne mounted him, he was done.She just looked at him with a cute look and kissed him basically letting him know it is okay.This is just my opionion of course but honestly thats how I read it…

    I wondered why they stopped. So they really were implying that Robb was a one-pump chump? King in the North…indeed…

    :)

  79. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:

    But with thappireth be involved?

    I’m afraid that we won’t get a Vargo and thus we won’t have that line. Sad. Jaime telling Brienne, “I just wanted to hear him say thapphireth” as his excuse for saving her by telling Hoat that her father was rich is one of my favorite scenes in the books. Ah, well. We can’t have it all. I’ll console myself with lots of incredible Brienne and Jaime interaction.

  80. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Deborah,

    Thanks for the insight. I really wish I knew some non-book readers to swap notes with and get their perspective from. It interests me to see how well they’re following along and get their perspective on things. Sadly, I introduced most of my guy friends to the novels over the course of the last 15 years. Any non-book readers want to be my friend? :p

  81. Azazelus
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    People people… have a little faith…

    Next episode, before the battle breaks out, I’m thinking we’ll briefly be seeing:

    Tyrion has a last “good moment” with Shae as he tells her his plans of sending her away

    The Hound has a final moment with Sansa that reinforces how his humanity still exists, but is buried underneath a dark, dark character

    I believe I remember reading that episode 9 is pretty much all battle, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be time to tie up some loose ends in King’s Landing before episode 10 focuses on Dany and the HotU, Jon and Qhorin, Arya and Jaqen, and maybe touches on closing out Winterfell with a certain someone at the gates.

    For the record, at this point, I am officially back on the Reeds are IN line of thought for the future, and that Maester Luwin will still die, like in the books…

  82. Mean25
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    They screwed up Arya’s story so much left a bitter taste in my mouth. I was waiting for weasel soup scene all year long, and all we got was a simple walk out of the gates. Why?
    The synopsis for episode 10 says that Jaquen gives Arya the coin. But if they have already escaped Harrenhal in this episode why would he follow them out of there?
    More pointless stalling of the House of the Undying so it can be in the finale instead of when it’s supposed to be.
    Talysa, I’m still clinging to the hope that she is actually Jeyne, hoping she will reveal it in episode 10.

  83. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Michelle:
    Bronn and Tyrion should have their own sitcom. One and a Half Man looks really promising…

    Braavos! Oops, I mean Bravo!

  84. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark,

    I wondered why they stopped. So they really were implying that Robb was a one-pump chump? King in the North…indeed…

    Heh…

    Well yeah you noticed he just layed there with a look on his face and his hands down… he was done.

    But I think this was shown to the viewer on purpose. To let the viewer know that Robb is no Theon Greyjoy. Robb is much more fragile and emotional (as far as girls g0). I think the scene was brillaint, sexy, playful and emotional.

    Couldn’t have asked for a better Robb/Jayne sex scene.

  85. winterfell
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Your answer is in the title of Episode 10.

    A man will reveal himself to a girl and give her a coin.

  86. Renaud Besse-Bourdier
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    Dude, seriously, what the fuck? Please tell me how she ruined the episode. Come on, tell us how her five second appearance ruined the episode.

  87. winterfell
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Seconded. Oona is AMAZING

  88. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier,

    He’s joking. He should be a winking emoticon instead of just a happy face emoticon. He has no problem with Ros.

  89. Shock Me
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: I’m afraid that we won’t get a Vargo and thus we won’t have that line. Sad. Jaime telling Brienne, “I just wanted to hear him say thapphireth” as his excuse for saving her by telling Hoat that her father was rich is one of my favorite scenes in the books.Ah, well. We can’t have it all. I’ll console myself with lots of incredible Brienne and Jaime interaction.

    I’m not sure why you believe the changes prevent the arrival of the Bloody Mummers. They can arrive with Jaimie and Brienne captured next season. I think it will still generally follow the book. Arya will get captured by the Brotherhood and Jaimie and Brienne by the Mummers.

  90. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Brandon Stark,

    Couldn’t have asked for a better Robb/Jayne sex scene.

    I agree. It was well done. I bought Robb’s motivation and desire and why he was willing to say, “**** the Freys!” It didn’t hurt that Oona’s a natural beauty.

  91. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    winterfell,

    This sounds really shallow…but was that a body double? I don’t think so…

  92. andrea
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Great pace this episode! Finally! I enjoyed it more than episode 2 (the only one I had enjoyed so far).
    Is the first time the scenes have some depth and are not just witty dialogue (or mediocre writing). For me the first time the hour-long episode is used at its full potential (actors, directing, editing).
    Virtually all the scenes with only two characters and they were good. Couples of all kind. I really like it.
    More than that: Theon and Danny didn´t shout to people today. Nice change.
    Varys at last! Conleth Hill impresses me, his moves, his voice, his manners. A genius that actor.
    And a smiling Pod!

  93. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:

    Well yeah you noticed he just layed there with a look on his face and his hands down…he was done.

    I didn’t see it that way, but you certainly made me laugh! You should have tweeted that. It would have won the re-Tweets for this episode.

  94. Lordexplodeon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    Yeah, that sounds possible.

    Could just be wishful thinking on my part, though. It’d break my heart not to have the Bloody Mummers.

  95. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    This sounds really shallow…but was that a body double? I don’t think so…

    That was not a body double. Oona has a small chest but very shapley thighs and booty. The focus of her nudity were those two features and I must say it worked beautifully. You can also see her face, the side of it…

  96. winterfell
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Deborah:
    Brandon Stark,

    All my non book reader friends end up calling me the next day to ask questions.When we read the books we had the appendixes (no one mock me please if I used that word incorrectly.Oh go ahead, mock away) that showed who belonged to what family and so on and we could refer back to them at any time to refresh our memories.My husband’s biggest issue is trying to understand the motivation for people doing what they do.Tonight his big question was why Cersei was so upset that Tyrion sent Marcella away.He thinks Cersei should accept it as the kind of thing that happens to people from the ruling class.I told him that Cersei thought she was in control of everything so Tyrion coming in and taking that decision away from her was what really upset her.Of course, I am just talking out of my ass but it was the best I could come up with.

    i think it has more to do with her being sent away to Robert and not wanting that for her daughter.

  97. JamesL
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Mean25,

    I don’t think it matters if she is Jeyne or not because whatever her name is she is obviously taking the role that Jeyne had in the books. It’s not like her scenes are just some filler for this season and next season they will introduce the real Jeyne.

  98. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Heh..

    Watch it again at 11pm. I swear it was implied. To bad we couldnt see his toes curl! I am telling you dude, he was done a few seconds after she straddled him… =)

  99. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    JamesL:
    They have not done Sansa and The Hounds relationship justice at all on the show. Actually they haven’t done Sansas entire storyline in A Clash of Kings justice at all. You would think with all the criticism they received last season for the lack of Sansa and the Hound stuff they would have corrected that this season and it looked like they were going to with that scene in the season finale last year but they didn’t and now that amazing moment they have together during the Battle of Blackwater with not have the nearly the impact it should next week.

    I agree with you completely. I love that part of the story and The Hound is one of my favorite characters, that is why episode 6 was my favorite thus far. Rory McCann has been awesome as the Hound and they show these moments where the hound from the book comes out. However, the writers have made The Hound more stoic than sinister which I am fine with. I wish they wouldn’t cut all of his great scenes or lines away, unfortunately there is a lot of material and characters so things have to get modified. I hope they do The Hound justice next season.

  100. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark,

    Be careful what you wish for. A non-reader friend of mine borrowed season one from me. Yesterday we met for lunch and she was just gushing over Ned Stark and all like “he is my favorite character, I can’t wait to see what he does” and so on. I am waiting for the screeching phone call any minute now.

  101. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    andrea:

    And a smiling Pod!

    I noticed that too. He was smiling at one of Tyrion’s japes about the king. I really hope that they take that interaction further. At some point though, it begins to boggle the mind. Just how many incredible two-person interactions can Tyrion have? They’ll have to stop nominating Peter Dinklage for awards and just mail them to him automatically.

  102. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Great episode. Really dramatic… and so many questions were resolved: i.e. Jon will fight Qhorin, Jon will bang Ygritte, Tyrion will kill Shae, Bran will hideout in the crypts, Ramsay will sack Winterfell, etc…. So, I’m sure book readers are happy tonight. 5 out of 5 from me (this season has been amazing so far, and Blackwater looks pretty damn intense. Can’t wait).

    The only thing that had me wondering was the House of the Undying. Will that be a part of the Blackwater storyline (if so, that’s freaking awesome, because GRRM wrote it), or will they end the season with that? The latter would make sense, given that season 1 ended with Dany’s dragons as well. But it would also be a pretty intense diversion from Blackwater, if they were to use it as a subplot during the same episode, so I’ll be happy either way.

  103. mummer
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    wargsareawesome: Not Dorne. They are part of Westeros and are implied to worship the Seven. It was the Summer Isles.

    True, but just for the sake of nitpicking: Dorne does officially worship the Seven, but they have a nature-based religion of their own from their ancestral home across the water. They just never talk about it and it hasn’t played a part in the story so far (except for one memorable incident in book 5).

  104. Renaud Besse-Bourdier
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    I am so stupid for not noticing it… thank you for this :-)

  105. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Again, being shallow here. I think your right. Wow. *All females on this thread collectively roll their eyes*

  106. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    winterfell,

    I think you are right. But I am not telling my husband your theory. Right now he thinks I am the smartest most insightful GoT fan out there. Let him keep believing I say.

  107. DB
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    The lack of Sansa in this season is very disheartening. I am actually disappointed. Well, at least GRRM wrote next week’s episode to have that one scene with Sansa and Sandor so I can at least pretend it all makes sense…

  108. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier,

    Your welcome! Now go apologize to Schosley or Scholsey or whatever his name is! ;-)

  109. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Scholesy,

    Oona wins this hands down…And the way it was directed and shot with passion and emotional connection really brought out her naked beauty. =)

    She definitely runs Ros and Mel close in my book. For the love of all the God, old and new.

  110. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Not I. Shallow away. The Seven know I’m gonna be oogling over Jeyne on the next showing.

  111. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    If we riot a little and start tossing things around, do you think it’ll make Winter post his thoughts on the episode quicker? I am really interested to see his reaction to all this. Maybe we could draw in crayon on the walls or something.

  112. Brandon Stark
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    The lack of Sansa in this season is very disheartening. I am actually disappointed. Well, at least GRRM wrote next week’s episode to have that one scene with Sansa and Sandor so I can at least pretend it all makes sense…

    I agree just because I think Sophie Turner’s fantastic. Sadly, there’s so little time and so many characters that I can understand why it’s hard to fit her in.

    When this is all said and done, I hope for a Tyrion/Bronn comedy spin-off, a Stark children version of Party of Five (or whatever number is left standing), a romantic comedy movie starring Jaime Lannister and Brienne (will he choose his sister or the beast?), and for Jaqen to replace Dexter on Showtime. I just hope Comedy Central doesn’t pick up a Shae The Funny Whore comedy special.

  113. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier:
    Joshua Taylor,

    I am so stupid for not noticing it… thank you for this :-)

    No need to apologize, Joshua was right. I used the wrong emoticon.

  114. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Not I. Shallow away. The Seven know I’m gonna be oogling over Jeyne on the next showing.

    Me too! I don’t think it is shallow to state that you think Oona is beautful… That scene worked for me and the fact that Oona is beautiful was a huge factor in that.

  115. andrea
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: I really hope that they take that interaction further.

    Yes! is a pity that Pod has not been used a bit more, but maybe you’re right, Tyrion captures everybody´s sympathy and Pod would have been one more satellite of this constellation Tyrion seems to be.

  116. Kenneth
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Not much happened but it was the small things that counted in this episode.

    I loved the robb/jeyne scene, the tyrion/shae scene, and dany/jorah scene. A lot of emotion in this episode which all revolved around love.

    I wish they would stop drawing dany’s story out! And also focus more on sansa and the hound. Besides that no complaints. The arya scene was pretty good. I wish there was more excitement with her escape

  117. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    I, personally, could watch a whole show of Arya, Hot Pie, and Gendry.

  118. Royboy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Did they mention the chain???

  119. Kenneth
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Not much happened but it was the small things that counted in this episode.

    I loved the robb/jeyne scene, the tyrion/shae scene, and dany/jorah scene. A lot of emotion in this episode which all revolved around love.

    I wish they would stop drawing dany’s story out! And also focus more on sansa and the hound. Besides that no complaints. The arya scene was pretty good.

  120. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    They screwed up Arya’s story so much left a bitter taste in my mouth. I was waiting for weasel soup scene all year long, and all we got was a simple walk out of the gates. Why?
    The synopsis for episode 10 says that Jaquen gives Arya the coin. But if they have already escaped Harrenhal in this episode why would he follow them out of there?
    More pointless stalling of the House of the Undying so it can be in the finale instead of when it’s supposed to be.
    Talysa, I’m still clinging to the hope that she is actually Jeyne, hoping she will reveal it in episode 10.

    Just out of curiosity, do you keep a checklist of scenes from the books by your side when watching this show, and gauge an episode’s goodness by percentage of boxes checked off?

  121. Deborah
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    I just IMDB’s Tom Wlaschiha. Looks like I need to learn German if I want to watch most of what he has done. That can be my plan for the long, long wait until next season. Sadly, he won’t be in next season of course but at least I now have something to fill the time.

  122. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Right. There’s a huge difference, and a thick line, IMO, between objectifying a lady and appreciating her bod. So far I haven’t seen much out-and-out objectifying going on here, which is awesome (if surprising).

    Plus, the (straight) ladies here yum over the men, so it’s all pretty much even.

  123. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: hat can be my plan for the long, long wait until next season. Sadly, he won’t be in next season of course but at least I now have something to fill the time.

    Doesn’t everybody?

  124. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Kenneth,

    I loved the robb/jeyne scene, the tyrion/shae scene, and dany/jorah scene. A lot of emotion in this episode which all revolved around love.

    Agreed. This was a really good episode. They laid down a lot of relationship groundwork in a really entertaining way…

  125. Deborah Ambridge Fisher
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and I have a question. Isn’t Tyrion supposed to burn down Flea Bottom?

  126. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    As for San/San, I never quite “got” that one when I was reading the books.

    I remember being shocked to find out there was a whole San/San subculture on the Westeros message boards, solely devoted to the implied relationship I never really picked up on. Granted, I picked up on it to a certain extent, mostly on Sandor’s part, but all implication on Sansa’s part went way over my head (disclaimer: I don’t understand women).

    That’s why I never really cared so much about their depiction on the show… because I never really cared about them in the books (no offense to those who do).

  127. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    That’s what I am saying!

    Anywho, talk to ya’ll soon. 2nd airing is on! =)

  128. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Now THAT is what a sex scene should be. that’s all for now haha.

  129. Mean25
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    I really do understand when they make changes for the purpose of more exposition or short budget.
    But the changes to the Jon storyline and the Talisa/Jeyne shit are completely pointless. Completely.
    I guess HBO is not comfortable with a cute little girl killing people. People complained last season when Arya killed that fat kid with Needle. D&D are Stark fanboys and don’t want to make them look bad.

    BTW, do Karstarks worship the Seven? “I’d rip my heart out and give it to The Father if it would bring my sons back and put them in chains” Maybe that too was because the budget, or maybe just maybe D&D are not Gods and are bad writers.

  130. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy: Doesn’t everybody?

    Sort of, except that I keep a reverse checklist made up of scenes not in the books, and the fewer boxes I check off etc. etc.

  131. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Deborah Ambridge Fisher:
    Oh, and I have a question.Isn’t Tyrion supposed to burn down Flea Bottom?

    No, just the slummy area outside the walls by the river.

  132. Ours is the Furry
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Very Close to the book. War is Here

  133. Tytos Lannister
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Ser Mandon Moore made a quick appearance. Maybe Ser Meryn won’t die this season.

  134. Deborah Ambridge Fisher
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    This year it is much easier for me on this site. Last year I swear 12 year old boys were doing most of the posting. I usually had to stop reading after 20 comments. Lusting over fictional characters is part of the fun of watching things like this. I would never want to date a guy like Jaime in real life but damn I don’t mind enjoying him as a fictional character. Mabybe except for Jaqen. Him I would totally do.

    On that note did anyone see the SNL skit a few weeks back where they portrayed the writers as being GRRM and a 12 year old boy who kept asking for more boobies. That was hilarious.

  135. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Mean25: ion supposed to burn down Flea Bottom?

    How exactly are they pointless? I am curious to hear your reasoning.

  136. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Deborah Ambridge Fisher:
    Oh, and I have a question.Isn’t Tyrion supposed to burn down Flea Bottom?

    Yes, in the books. But we never really saw much of that part of King’s Landing in the TV series because the story had to be condensed so much. Readers got plenty of it via Arya’s POV in the first book; but non-reader viewers of the series would not really understand or care as much about it. Plus it would take time away from other more important plot points to explain why Tyrion burned it down, being as close to the walls as it was.

  137. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    This was a good episode. I’m not sure that non-book readers will like it that much. There was no action, but they will more than make up for it in the final 2 episodes.

    I am disappointed by Arya’s final wish. It wasn’t nearly as good as in the books. I don’t know why they couldn’t just parade in some Northern prisoners and stick to the third wish that was in ‘ACOK’. I guess this is just part of condensing the story. They better give Arya some kills next season.

    Hello, Ms.Chaplin! I finally understand why Robb would make such a foolish mistake.

    I wanted to see Catelyn releasing Jaime, but oh well. I liked the banter between Jaime and Brienne. Their fight is definately happening in the finale. I just hope they keep Jaime in his chains.

    Jon and Halfhand will happen, it’s just a shame that Jon looks so foolish now. He is responsible for the other rangers’ deaths. In the book, Quorin tells him that if he needed Ygritte dead he would have done it himself. The impact and significance of Quorin has been wasted, IMO. Hopefully they can build it up better in the finale.

    Jorah has found a ship and a captain! Looks like we may yet get ‘Arsten’ in the finale!

    I knew Ros was taking the place of Alayaya. It makes sense because Tyrion gave her that necklace that Cersei mentioned when he was still at Winterfell. I loved the interaction between Dinklage and Headey.

    Tyrion stole the episode once again with his witty one liners. ‘The god of wine and tits’, LOL!

    I hope they aren’t planting the seed for Bronn to turn on Tyrion. I know there is speculation that he will take Mandon Moore’s place. Even though we got a mention of Ser Mandon, I am beginning to feel like they will scrap the whole Cersei trys to have Tyrion killed plot.

    Overall this was a well done episode that is basically the calm before the storm. They have backloaded most of the best events for the final two episodes. I hope they deliver. I fully believe that they will.

  138. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    Yeah, I never picked up on a romantic angle, either — I thought it was creepy, although I never ruled out Sandor recovering mentally and becoming a somewhat decent person later on in life (as he might have already). I think it really depends on how you look at it, and if you’re looking for it.

  139. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    t maybe D&D are not Gods and are bad writers.

    Well, I can safely just skip any posts you make in the future without worry that I might be missing some intelligent discussion.

  140. cindyash
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    I really wish I knew some non-book readers to swap notes with and get their perspective from. It interests me to see how well they’re following along and get their perspective on things.

    My husband is a non reader (how odd is that? He’s usually the one reading books with tons of battles and has to explain them to me when we watch the movie adaptations!). He actually figured out many of the twists (like Roz for Shea, and about Bran and Rickon). He’s bored with Dany, but seems to get the rest of the storyline. He’ll ask me for clarification now and again. Tho sometimes I just remind him not to always trust what he sees.

    He is very ready however for someone to do something about Joffrey and Theon. I dissapointed him by saying that all happens next season!

  141. Rukie44
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    This episodes had some great character interactions. I especially loved Tyrion & Bron, and Tyrion and Varys. However, why did they give a specific time for Stannis’s arrival instead of sticking with “any day now.” It’ll be unbelievable to see how the Tyrells join Tywin and march from Harrenhall to King’s Landing in such a short amount of time (I believe I heard “one or two days” mentioned).

    Since the next episode will deal largely with the events of the Battle of Blackwater, here’s how I think (hope) they will wrap up everyone’s stories for the season:

    * Arya & co.
    I believe Jaquen will find Arya to have her unsay his name (“Please?”), so that he can Facebend (sorry, watching too much Avatar) and give her the coin (Valar Morghulis). Arya & co will then get captured by the the Brotherhood Without Banners because, let’s face it, they’ve set them up too well to let them sit until next season. And it would be a nice ‘surprise twist’ to have Arya captured again by a new force whose motives remain unknown going into next season.

    *Jon and the Wildlings
    Either Jon vs. Qhorin will happen next episode, or it will be pushed back until episode 20 due to Blackwater. In any case, I’d say Jon joining the wildlings like in the book is an adequate cutoff to his story for the season.

    *The Night’s Watch
    It would be the coolest thing ever if The Night’s Watch story concludes with the sounding of the horn three times, like in the preview, signaling the white walkers’ attack. In fact, they should end the whole season with that.

    *Winterfell
    I can actually see this ending any number of ways.
    1. Since they haven’t cast Reek/Ransay yet, Theon holds Winterfell until the begining of next season (not likely).
    2. Reek/Ramsay shows up, takes Winterfell, but you never see his face (I hope it’s not this one).
    3. The above, but they HAVE cast Reek/Ramsay, and they just never announced it
    In the event that the battle of Winterfell happens this season, I see either A. Ludwin survives, takes Rickon south while Osha Bran and Hodor go North or B. They all stay in Winterfell until the begining of next season where, I dunno, I HOPE the Reeds show up to survey the damage and find them.

    *Robb’s camp
    Now that it’s all but confirmed that the Tullys will be appearing in season 3, I’m seriously hopping that this season ends with Catelyn, or even Catelyn + Robb’s army, regrouping at Riverrun. I mean let’s face it, by the end of the season, Winterfell is taken, Bran & Rickon are thought dead, and Catelyn has no where left to go but back to Tullyland to visit her sick/dying father. I just want her story to end this season by hearing her say something along the lines of “I’m going home to Riverrun.”

    *Jamie & Brienne
    They actually ended Jamie & Brienne’s story pretty well tonight. They’ve established that they’re going on a little road trip. Now, if they choose to extend that at all, I GUESS they could run into the Brave Companions (since they were never established in the show, let’s just say Rorge & Biter & co.) and have Jamie’s hand get cut off. Although I would think they’d want to take a bit of next season to ‘humanize’ Jamie first, before they try and make us feel all sorry for him.

    *Danny
    I HOPE they don’t try to squeeze the events of Blackwater and the House of the Undying into one episode, because the HotU is practically an episode all its own. If anything, I see HotU taking up parts of 19 and 20. I hope Danny’s season ends on a dock, looking for the ship to Astapor (?) where they meet Whitebeard (let’s face it, they’ll want to show him again before the audience has two years worth of time to forget who the hell he is). I at least want Whitebeard set up before the season is through.

    *Stannis
    I’ve been hearing reports of Liam saying Davos ends the season in a prison. So by that logic, after the Battle of Blackwater, I see Davos wanting to assasinate Melisandre for the death of his son in the battle. He gets caught, thrown in prison, Stannis wallows in his defeat, wrap. No big deal.

    *King’s landing
    Too many characters, too many variables. They can end this any number of ways. As long as they don’t attempt an “Oh, no, Tyrion might die! Or won’t he? Tune in next season to find out,” then we’ll be fine. Also, a Tyrion face scar would be nice, but I won’t hold my breath.

    This will be fun. Let’s see how mch I get right, if any.
    >+)

  142. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    Did you notice that I attempted writing your name twice in my retort to Renaud? And still failed? ‘L E S Y’ haha!

  143. Deborah Ambridge Fisher
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    True. I don’t know why but I was hoping to see that. I seem to remember that the guilt Tyrion felt really moved me and had me caring more about him as a character.

  144. darquemode
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    A slow but decent episode overall….
    * Waits for Ros bitching to end and begons to comment *

    Not much to say since it was uninspiring to me frankly. Glad Varys was back. Rattleshirt rattled and rocked. Mostly thoughthe lasting impression right now is that the Robb/ Jeyne scenes were far, FAR too long.

    This was a “table setter” episode, but that’s okay since I love how things are set up for the Battle of Blackwater and the finale!

    Here are this week’s Episode Extras:
    http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/05/game-of-thrones-episode-208-prince-of_21.html

  145. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    Langkard: Well, I can safely just skip any posts you make in the future without worry that I might be missing some intelligent discussion.

    BURN!

  146. tysnow
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Really great yet quiet episode, my second favorite of the season atm, I loved the dialogue and character building scenes. Like the beautiful serene calm before the storm.
    I already surmised that no weasel soup would be in the offering, afterall, Arya spent all her time around Tywin, not the kitchen and dining hall, where the staff and men would be accustomed to her, which is req’d to set up an impact event as the soup scenario was in the books.
    I actually felt for Ros in that scene, and you could tell Tyrion remembered her and felt some affection for the poor girl. Esme looks beautiful even w/o makeup, but Oona takes the cake, she is breathtaking in her natural beauty. All these made-up fake American actresses from other shows can’t meet Nina’s expectations; Lena, Michelle, Oona, Sophie, Emelia, Rose, Esme and of course Maisie in a few years.
    Noome mentioned this but, the jest I received from Tywin’s discussion is they are headed to ambush Robb’s army in a surprise attack, so might there be a big alteration perhaps. Though he could be saying that for any spies about, and really is heading for you know where.

  147. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Skipjack:
    I think we needed more screen time with Robb over the course of the season to have him wrestle a bit with his conscience.He is going on and on this ep. about how great and honorable his father was, and we see the burden of living up to his memory, but we don’t see the conflict in how he might not want to follow the road spread out before him.Nothing about how he’s now a king and can make his own rules, or at least that maybe he can’t be as honorable as his father, because he’s not his father.Either way, it felt rushed.And also for them to declare their feelings and immediately peel off felt anachronistic.At least they made it look like she knew what she was doing, but again there wasn’t anything to show that Talisa had her own mind about their relationship.Oh well.

    Still looking forward to next week, just not with the grip of obsession I had been last year.The stakes in Stannis’ attack feel lower than in the book somehow, mostly since show!Stannis is such a cipher.I wish we got a sense that he might bring justice to the Lannisters, but justice seems to be a matter of convenience for him.

    Um, the fact that Talissa said “I don’t want you to marry the Frey girl” and unlaced Robb’s clothing rather quickly didn’t tell you she was into it?

  148. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    darquemode,

    Re: Robb and Jeyne: I wanted her to mention the Turtles of the Rhoyne but it was a little long. But the pay-off was good! Wink-wink nudge nudge!

  149. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Mean25:
    BTW, do Karstarks worship the Seven? “I’d rip my heart out and give it to The Father if it would bring my sons back and put them in chains” Maybe that too was because the budget, or maybe just maybe D&D are not Gods and are bad writers.

    I think he meant it in an ironic way, like “I would sacrifice myself to a god I don’t even believe in…”

  150. Deborah Ambridge Fisher
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Man. I completely forgot about Arya and the BwB. I chose not to reread before watching and this is what happens. I forget entire plotlines.

  151. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    Scholesy,

    Did you notice that I attempted writing your name twice in my retort to Renaud? And still failed? ‘L E S Y’haha!

    Yes, but my honor would not allow me to point it out. It is the nickname of my favorite footballer. Unless you know him, it is a bit difficult to remember. I can’t remember seeing anyone else with the name.

  152. Lordexplodeon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think it’s more likely that Meryn Trant will be the one in Mandon’s shoes.

  153. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    I noticed you left out Carice! Unless you feel otherwise of course.

  154. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark: I wondered why they stopped. So they really were implying that Robb was a one-pump chump? King in the North…indeed…

    :)

    Um, no, his pants weren’t off yet…just watched twice and saw no royal buttocks.

  155. darquemode
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Michelle,

    Add Varys to the series and call it One and Two Half Men.

  156. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    tysnow,

    I noticed you left out Carice!Unless you feel otherwise of course.

    And Rose. I say we take his head for these grave mistakes.

  157. stanvosftw
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Ho-Yay!
    “Every man in Storm’s End wanted to kiss you that night…”
    Projecting much Stannis?

    Jeyne… idgi. They took a non-character and turned her into the most boring, generic, cliche they could possibly do. Smells like lazy writing to me. The actress is lovely though.

  158. garik16
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Ignoring the fact that I hate nearly every change from the book in this ep (Jon, moving up Bran’s plot, !NotJeyne-Robb, Roz for Alayaya, Tyrion looking clueless here instead of having a great plot that might work to save the city…..only Arya works here) - this ep seemed to be pretty damn miserable as an episode of TV!

    Last week set up the House of the Undying. This week…..it didn’t happen. Why didn’t it happen? It was the big setup last week and then instead it was delayed to what? Episode 10? (Probably given that next week is probably all blackwater). Instead we got payoffs to Jaime-Brienne-Cat (Not necessary till Ep 10) and Bran-Rickon (Again, not necessary till Ep 10). And with blackwater likely taking up most of next week, all the other pieces of this episode are setting up scenes (like the sacking of Winterfell) which won’t take place next episode!

    The pacing is terrible. If you did House of Undying this week you’d have people talking about the show going into the season’s blockbuster: Blackwater. Instead…wtf.

  159. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Well this board was fun while it lasted. Have at it Purists.

  160. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Deborah Ambridge Fisher:
    Langkard,

    True.I don’t know why but I was hoping to see that.I seem to remember that the guilt Tyrion felt really moved me and had me caring more about him as a character.

    True. But that is what makes us devoted fans of GRRM, really. We know the true depth and breadth of the story, with all of its rich narrative and characters. We also (most of us) manage to enjoy the adaptation of that story to the screen. My hope is that some non-readers will be inspired to read the books. Otherwise they’ll never really get to enjoy to the fullest the amazing characters GRRM created.

    Many of the negative reactions to the series are founded on the lack of depth compared to the books. Not enough Sansa, Arya, Tryion, Jon, whatever. And that is true. I enjoy Maisie Williams as Arya in this series immensely and Peter Dinklage as Tyrion and Conleth Hill as Varys, etc. but the book versions will always be better. It can’t be helped. That doesn’t lessen my appreciation of the series. Knowing the books allows me to enjoy the series more in some ways, I think. But the series has also enriched my enjoyment of the books.

  161. Zack
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    R.I.P. Weasel Soup :(

    Minor quibble aside, this show is consistently brilliant. I remember saying after last season that I thought Boardwalk Empire had stronger writing. This season, the show has just improved to such a degree. Every episode this season has felt like a 9 or 10, where season 1 had a few 7s. I think it’s gradually become my favorite current show. Breaking Bad is its main rival for that title at the moment.

    -I don’t think I give enough praise to Conleth Hill as Varys. He is amazing though.
    -This interpretation of Cersei might be growing on me.
    -I’m still loving Gemma Whelan as Asha. Never got the hate from certain folk regarding her. She puts on an act, but she cares. I like it.
    -I’m wondering if I have too much…respect? I don’t know… for Book Shae at the expense of TV Shae. If I am just misremembering her personality, her fondness for Tyrion, etc. Maybe she was as cold as she has been portrayed on TV. But I thought the actress did a nice job tonight of finally actually reminding me of her book counterpart.

    Arthur:
    Brandon Stark,

    Heh…

    Well yeah you noticed he just layed there with a look on his face and his hands down…he was done.

    But I think this was shown to the viewer on purpose.To let the viewer know that Robb is no Theon Greyjoy.Robb is much more fragile and emotional (as far as girls g0).I think the scene was brillaint, sexy, playful and emotional.

    Couldn’t have asked for a better Robb/Jayne sex scene.

    Agreed entirely, I loved the scene. At first, the thought occurred that they were “done,” but the sentimental part of me decided to think that the ‘stop’ was temporary, to show that he was just enjoying her and not in a mood to hurry. Not that the sex was finished.

  162. tysnow
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    OMG! I forgot to list Natalia’s, Sibel and Carice (rubbery legs) in my naturally gorgeous post, forgive me ladies.
    Also, a change for how the Dragonglass is found, yet I can see someone burying them there on Fist than is the woods somewhere.

    Where’s Ghost? period.

  163. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    I also like to compare notes with non-bookies — my friends, my mom and my dad’s friends, for instance. (My dad doesn’t watch, and complains that for an hour every Sunday he loses his friends and family.)

    I don’t really go to the special TWOP thread generally because it is INFESTED with book-readers who are dropping hints, and the poor kids don’t even know. There’s shit there that they would never, ever be able to pick up — they don’t look at the Wiki, they don’t read the books, and I think even the HBO site is banned. I thought, maybe they’re perceptive, so I wasn’t entirely sure until someone went “Hey, so do you guys think Catelyn is gonna have Brienne chop Jaime’s hand off?” and someone replied “Yeah, I’m sure he’s gonna lose a hand eventually.” No way, José.

  164. Zack
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: Knowing the books allows me to enjoy the series more in some ways, I think. But the series has also enriched my enjoyment of the books.

    I think this is the best way of stating it I’ve yet encountered. The show just, by its nature, cannot hit the same depths as the text. But it can be a companion piece, to show things that were only alluded to, or to take us down new roads on the way to the same destination.

  165. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    Oh I forgot about Rose! I was going to bugger off after Garik’s post him being the vanguard for the Purist legions, but I am here if you want me to hold him down. I hope you have some good Valyrian steel with you.

    Speaking of Ice, speaking of Ned Stark. I loved how Robb was given a line that was originally meant for Ned to give to Bran in the first novel: “Can a man still be brave if he is afraid?” Answer: “that is the only time a man can be brave.”

  166. Giselle Glasgow
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Really enjoyed tonight’s episode… Everything sets up what is to come for the rest of the season and the next season…

    P.S. I now understand the purpose of Ros…. clever D&D…. very clever…

  167. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    All is forgiven Tysnow, which is good because Scholesy and I were about to go all Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne on your ass!

  168. tysnow
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    stanvosftw,

    I have been enjoying the character, and the writing for the scenes is great, also Oona is spot on. Sniff! Sniff!, I smell book purists and trolls rearing up to put their two cents worth in, but that’s okay because they are in the smallest of minorities on this series, as the critics, media and viewers praise can attest to. Oh! and one more thing, why do you people still watch the show you are always berating?

  169. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    OMG! I forgot to list Natalia’s, Sibel and Carice (rubbery legs) in my naturally gorgeous post, forgive me ladies.
    Also, a change for how the Dragonglass is found, yet I can see someone burying them there on Fist than is the woods somewhere.

    Where’s Ghost? period.

    I like that the dragonglass was found this way better than in the books, really. It didn’t make sense to me that the hoard was in some non-descript, out-of-the-way location without meaning. Having it buried under a marked stone on the Fist makes it more interesting. Just another reason to enjoy both the series and the books!

    If they end the season with three horn blasts I’ll have a nerdgasm and then maybe I can convince a doctor to put me into an induced 9 month coma so I won’t have to waste time between seasons.

  170. Kaeth
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    does anyone know the proper dose of nyquil for a weeks worth of sleep. It would make the wait alot easier.

  171. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Speaking of Ilyn Payne, he was in the trailer for next episode! He looked like a sweetheart, as usual.

  172. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    After a couple of episodes of being off-book, this ep brought it back in a good way. My recap and thoughts on tonight’s episode is up now.

  173. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Deborah Ambridge Fisher:
    ThePinkDragon,

    This year it is much easier for me on this site.Last year I swear 12 year old boys were doing most of the posting.I usually had to stop reading after 20 comments.Lusting over fictional characters is part of the fun of watching things like this.I would never want to date a guy like Jaime in real life but damn I don’t mind enjoying him as a fictional character.Mabybe except for Jaqen.Him I would totally do.

    Hey! Hands off Jaqen!

  174. LordStarkington
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    A little disappointed in the changes to Arya’s story but I still really liked it, although Robb and Talisa/Jeyne scenes are pretty meh in my book.

    Lots of fun little jokes and lines (Stannis and cats/dogs, the look Tyrion gives Bronn when Varys pronounces the Archmaester’s name, Bronn/Tyrion in general, etc.). Jaime/Brienne was great, BLackwater looks like it’s going to be great, Stannis/Davos were super and Oona Chaplin looked great. Err, that was my Neanderthal co-personality speaking, sorry.

  175. Andy Gavin
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    Here on the eve of battle, things are moving fast. Ten hours can hardly retell 1040 pages, so this episode packs in a lot of story in a very rapid way. There are some great scenes, particularly with Tyrion (as usual), but the whole feels a little disjointed. My full episode review here.

  176. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Not entirely true. The Completely Unspoiled board on TWOP is guarded by mods worthy of Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy and Gerold Hightower combined! No book reader is allowed commenting there lest they be banned. Which is a pity because I want to tell Stillshimpy that the “pig shit” ie: Wildfire is HBO giving them the nod as it was Stillshimpy who posted last season that the way some of the UK actors say “pitch” sounds an awful like ‘pigshit.’ She even posted tonight that she gets a 4th wall experience whenever pigshit is mentioned on the show. If only she knew!

  177. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    stanvosftw,
    Oh! and one more thing, why do you people still watch the show you are always berating?

    This. When House started getting cheesy, I stopped watching, and didn’t discuss it anymore. When Heroes started getting cheesy, I stopped watching, and didn’t discuss it anymore. When Glee started getting cheesy (admittedly only took them two episodes from the pilot, but…), I stopped watching, and didn’t discuss it anymore.

    I don’t even like the Daily Raven, but I don’t go into the thread to berate others for it. Why cause yourself the agitation and stir up other fans? Not worth it, IMO.

  178. Arthur
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm.

    I’m trying to think of something to bitch about…

    The only thing I can think of, as I have been saying for the last few episodes, is the lack of action scenes…

    But with all the great scenes with clever writting, great acting and beautiful sets I can wait until next week to see some swordplay. =]

  179. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Hi-Fi,

    Awesome! I was hoping he would have his scene, threatening the entire nobility of KL with death while Cersei drinks away. Fantastic!

  180. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    Scholesy,

    Oh I forgot about Rose!I was going to bugger off after Garik’s post him being the vanguard for the Purist legions, but I am here if you want me to hold him down. I hope you have some good Valyrian steel with you.

    Speaking of Ice, speaking of Ned Stark. I loved how Robb was given a line that was originally meant for Ned to give to Bran in the firstnovel: “Can a man still be brave if he is afraid?”Answer: “that is the only time a man can be brave.”

    I loved the line and I knew it felt familiar.

    And as long as their posters like you Joshua, this place still has a chance.

  181. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    But Ros was in this episode!

    You have to admit D & D made a good call there!

  182. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    No, I know that. I know they’re very strict. I’m just positive people are sneaking in under the guise of non-bookies and being like “So hey, guys, what if…” because there’s tons of completely random (but completely correct) predictions. I suppose they just got really lucky with the ‘spitballing,’ as they call it, but it’s like infinite monkeys (no offense to them) typing Shakespeare after an infinite amount of time.

    Also, they seem, if I recall, to know the names of all the direwolves, some of whom — Grey Wind definitely, and Summer I think — have never been mentioned. They’ve got some agents (for lack of a better word) up in there, fo’ sho’.

  183. stanvosftw
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    stanvosftw,
    I have been enjoying the character, and the writing for the scenes is great, also Oona is spot on. Sniff! Sniff!, I smell book purists and trolls rearing up to put their two cents worth in, but that’s okay because they are in the smallest of minorities on this series, as the critics, media and viewers praise can attest to. Oh! and one more thing, why do you people still watch the show you are always berating?

    Oh! I agree Oona is lovely and doing a great job with the material.

    I don’t know what about my comment makes you think I’m a book purist. I think Jeyne Westerling from the books is boring (a non-character) and I was excited they were changing her.

    What I don’t like is that they have created a character that is the biggest cliche character ever. She’s the tough girl that refused to be a lady and ran off against her parents wishes blah blah blah… boring.

  184. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    I’m trying to think of something to bitch about…

    lol <3

  185. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    After a couple of episodes of being off-book, this ep brought it back in a good way. My recap and thoughts on tonight’s episode is up now.

    Nice recap, WiC! I agree completely about the Arya and Jaqen scene. You could see in her eyes as the idea came to her. And I almost shouted at the TV, “Whisper it in his ear!” and then she did. I just sat there with a stupid grin. And then Jaqen’s reaction. Could it get better? Why, yes, it could, when Arya uses his own grammar back at him and says, “a girl” will unspeak the name.

    I’m still confused as to why they bothered to cast a jailor named Weasel, though. Maybe to throw off all of us obsessed fans?

  186. Zack
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    This was a mere itch in my brain as I watched. But I feel absolutely the same way. But that’s how this show is, just rushing things a bit more than would perhaps be best. It’s a common theme. I mean, I loved the scene, Jeyne’s story, and watching Robb react. But it could have been spread out over multiple episodes for better effect. Shrug.

    Winter Is Coming: Robb’s romance – As I was watching Talisa tell her story and seeing Robb’s reaction, I was thinking to myself, “Please don’t have sex, please don’t have sex.” I know that we have a ton of storylines to get to each week and so they can’t spend a lot of time building this up, but man, I really wish they would have had them sleep together next week, or even two weeks from now. We didn’t really get a sense that Robb was struggling with betraying his honor at all. The second they are alone together and sharing an intimate moment, the clothes are off. I think if they had ended their final scene tonight with the beginnings of a kiss, only to have Robb break if off, clearly wanting her but struggling to keep his word, it really would have sold this tragic love story. Then in a week or two, after some more time spent with these two and after the audience clearly understands that Robb is trying to stand strong but is obviously head over heels for this girl, then Robb can finally gives in to his urges.

  187. stanvosftw
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Oh I think she might know! Several people “congratulated” her when it was said/suggested that maybe HBO added it for her. Actually do we really know for a fact that HBO did it as a nod to her comment?

  188. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    I love it when adaptations use lines from other characters that fit the moment/overall interpretation so well. My favourite being Gandalf’s lines about Eoywn given to Wormtongue instead: http://youtu.be/_VTMtrqqiH4

    Fantastic move on Peter Jackson/Fran Walsh/Philippa Boyens part. Great move on D & D’s part. Ned lives on through Robb. So perfect. So Tragic.

  189. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Hmmm.

    I’m trying to think of something to bitch about…

    The only thing I can think of, as I have been saying for the last few episodes, is the lack of action scenes…

    But with all the great scenes with clever writting, great acting and beautiful sets I can wait until next week to see some swordplay.=]

    Crap. The Mayans were right.

  190. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    One good reason why it’s a good thing GRRM wrote next week’s episode and not me? I’d have Tyrion give a pre-battle speech making reference to the little known 8th god, Crispin, and mention that it was his feast day. Then a little later, exhort the defenders to go once more into the breach. Just to piss off fans who are too easily pissed off. Maybe paint blue woad on his face or something too.

  191. garik16
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Odd of you to describe me as a purist. I like some of the changes and don’t mind others. Qarth is basically pointless in the books, so I like the new plot mostly, just wished the payoff was THIS WEEK.

    Arya’s plot – littlefinger teleporting to Harrhenhal aside – has been perfect (Seriously people, WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT WEASEL SOUP?!).

    But the above changes seem to make little dramatic TV sense, and don’t result in saving costs or saving time, leading to my complaints.

  192. Dennis
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Even as a dude, I some of the lovey dovey stuff in this episode was touching. It’s the world is fucked up but as long as you’re around its not so bad idea. particularly shae and tyrions interaction was good to see. It reminds us again that he s not only a freaking Don, he also is truly trying to cling to the good in life as much as he can.

  193. Lea
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    how about Grenn and Samwell’s discovery of dragon glass?? Made me excited for things to come!

  194. Jason
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    No one thinks Jeyne is hot? C’mon, people!

  195. LordDavos12
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    I for one am glad it was finally explained why I am known as the Onion Knight!

    Oh, and Talisa is definitely Jeyne.

  196. LordDavos12
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Lea,

    I enjoyed that, along with Edd’s bitching, but it really brought the lack of Ghost into focus for me.

  197. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Oh there have been people sneaking in. I set up a TWOP account just so I could turn them in. People that I have seen on IMDB, Westeros and here.

    I love reading the Unspoiled page. Stillshimpy is my favourite. Sad that I missed out on her Battlestar Galactica speculations though. White Stumbler is really into the show. Lloga hates the fantasy element but enjoys the politics. So far they remain steadfast, but I think we may lose Gingerella…she is constantly frustrated this season. She used to love Jon Snow, hates Ygritte, hates Melisandre and thinks the shadowbaby was the stupidest thing in the world. She had a big reaction when Ned died too. So we will have to see if she hangs on. Maybe she’s just so invested in the story that she reacts emotionally in her posts.

  198. Scholesy
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    Scholesy,

    I love it when adaptations use lines from other characters that fit the moment/overall interpretation so well. My favourite being Gandalf’s lines about Eoywn given to Wormtongue instead:http://youtu.be/_VTMtrqqiH4

    Fantastic move on Peter Jackson/Fran Walsh/Philippa Boyens part. Great move on D & D’s part. Ned lives on through Robb. So perfect. So Tragic.

    Some really underestimate how hard adapting a work is. I when a line I love is worked in and it feels natural. I really dislike when it feels a line is just there because it is suppose to be.

  199. Renaud Besse-Bourdier
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Well hey, at least we had a good fun with Scholesy! And we can rejoice because in the end, we are happy to enjoy good television when others are filled with hatred and frustrations.

  200. Kels
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Here is an interview with Tom Wlaschiha about his role, and he mentions that he has his “first shape-shift on screen.” It looks like we’ll get to see that and the coin!

    http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/01/game-of-thrones-season-2-tom-wlaschiha.html

  201. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    garik16,

    Apologies Ser. I guess you were just ahead of the vanguard is all. I’m sure Jordan Healey will chime in any moment now. Not that I mind, of all the Purists I find him the most understanding, even though he comes of begrudging. He is also the most eloquent.

    I’m just having fun. So again, apologies.

  202. Lea
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    oh and did anyone else catch Lord Karstark mentioning The Father from the Sevens when talking about his fallen sons?…I thought the bannerman of the north believed in the Old Gods (except House Manderly). Small nitpick that only a book reader would probably pick on, but overall, I felt like it was a strong episode. Looking forward to the Battle of Blackwater!

  203. Renaud Besse-Bourdier
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Langkard,

    And suddenly make him grow as tall as Jaime and be a fucking beast on the field.
    Let’s find other stuff like that, we would call it “the completely Game of Thrones by Lankgard!”

    I would watch that

  204. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Yeah, I do feel a little bad for the non-bookie people who came into the show expecting very little magic, but I wish I could tell them a) that it remains pretty low-key until much later and b) it always makes sense, in a primal way. Yeah, the shadowbaby seems like a deus ex, but — though it isn’t made clear in the show I don’t think — it seems to sap Melisandre’s energy pretty bad. You can’t just pull the magic out of nowhere in this universe. Some have even speculated all the deaths at the end of season/book one brought on the dragons as in “only death can pay for life.”

  205. Renaud Besse-Bourdier
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    WiC, about Cersei’s power play: I actually like the fact that she is inconsistent, and I don’t find it contradictory. She understands and accepts the nature of her son, but it’s still her son and she wants to protect him at any cost. I really get her behavior, so it didn’t bother me :-) But perhaps I’m the only one to think this. Reactions?

  206. Langkard
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier:
    Langkard,

    And suddenly make him grow as tall as Jaime and be a fucking beast on the field.
    Let’s find other stuff like that, we would call it “the completely Game of Thrones by Lankgard!”

    I would watch that

    I was thinking that as Tyrion passes by the troops on the way to the siege defense, one scraggly soldier could remark to another, “it’s Tyrion Lannister!” and the other one will grunt, “It can’t be… he’s too tall!” Uh oh. I feel some really bad fan fiction coming.

  207. Zack
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier:
    WiC, about Cersei’s power play: I actually like the fact that she is inconsistent, and I don’t find it contradictory. She understands and accepts the nature of her son, but it’s still her son and she wants to protect him at any cost. I really get her behavior, so it didn’t bother me :-) But perhaps I’m the only one to think this. Reactions?

    No, to me it made sense as well. She doesn’t approve of the sadistic streak in her son, but she loves him and doesn’t want him to die in battle.

    It’s not contradictory, it’s just…a layer of complexity. But life is complex. Mothers have an inherent desire to protect their children. Apparently Joff being a shit doesn’t make Cersei want to renounce motherhood. That’s kind of admirable.

  208. Maxwell James
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Meh. Probably the weakest episode this season. And I must say I’m pretty disappointed we lost Weasel Soup.

    The best part of this episode was the preview for next week.

  209. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier:
    WiC, about Cersei’s power play: I actually like the fact that she is inconsistent, and I don’t find it contradictory. She understands and accepts the nature of her son, but it’s still her son and she wants to protect him at any cost. I really get her behavior, so it didn’t bother me :-) But perhaps I’m the only one to think this. Reactions?

    Some inconsistency is perhaps not too out of line. But last week’s scene really made it seem like she had written Joffrey off as a lost cause and her and Tyrion sort of had a bonding moment over it. And then this week, it was the complete opposite, with her vehemently defending Joffrey and strongly threatening Tyrion. I’m not saying she should not care if her son dies or that Tyrion and her should become besties, but it seemed she had made a complete 180 from her attitude last week. I would imagine as a new viewer it may seem inconsistent and that maybe that is just a part of her character. Of course, as a book reader I know it is because they are pulling a scene directly from the book and not compensating for the small changes they’ve made in the characters. YMMV

  210. JA
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier:
    WiC, about Cersei’s power play: I actually like the fact that she is inconsistent, and I don’t find it contradictory. She understands and accepts the nature of her son, but it’s still her son and she wants to protect him at any cost. I really get her behavior, so it didn’t bother me :-) But perhaps I’m the only one to think this. Reactions?

    I thought the scene made sense. Cersei’s love for Joffrey is never in question, regardless of the fact she recognizes his madness.

  211. Meg
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Cat looks like an idiot in this episode, and Robb chastened her like a child when *he* was the one who acted like one by marrying Jeyne. I thought it was very important that they needed to confess their mistakes to each other as equals, grief-stricken with stupidity.

    Robb/nursie is a complete bore. I got up to make baked potatoes during those scenes. They were more entertaining. I think the biggest problem is that the romance feels forced. If she wasn’t always standing in his tent it would feel more natural. This show should stay away from sappy love stories. Every scene just drags.

    Arya didn’t get her badass escape (I’ve been looking forward to that all season), but then I realized she has plenty of time to be awesome in upcoming seasons, so I’m not as mad about that as the Cat/Robb mess.

    Despite all that, I really loved this episode. Varys, Bronn, Stannis, and Osha saved it. Loved how D&D made fun of the cliched unpronounceable fantasy novel name. Loved Bronn’s refusal to wear the gold cloak, and Tyrion’s irritation. Loved Stannis story (FINALLY we get a motivation for why he dislikes Renly), and Osha just has a slinky cat look to her that I enjoy.

  212. Nicole
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    Worst episode yet. Bunch of wasted time. If I was a new viewer, it would be difficult for me to stay interested in the show, honestly. Less talky, more action. Have some freaking flashback scenes if you can’t come up with any good stuff. Andcomplete loss on Arya escaping, people expect to see fighting. This series has shown little to no real fighting scenes.

  213. DB
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Lea,

    Lea:
    oh and did anyone else catch Lord Karstark mentioning The Father from the Sevens when talking about his fallen sons?…I thought the bannerman of the north believed in the Old Gods (except House Manderly).Small nitpick that only a book reader would probably pick on, but overall, I felt like it was a strong episode.Looking forward to the Battle of Blackwater!

    Holy… how did I miss that? Damn, if that’s not inconsistency I don’t know what is… it’s just like wtf are you even paying attention to your own writing at all at this point?

  214. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    Nicole:
    This series has shown little to no real fighting scenes.

    Shit’s expensive and time-consuming, that’s why. We only have a certain budget, and we have to use it to pay the actors AND the crew AND the CGI company AND buy costumes AND horses AND rights to locations AND…

  215. Meg
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    @Lea and DB, yeah someone should let Bryan Cogman know about that on Twitter. Isn’t it his job to watch for those little details?

  216. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    DB:
    Lea,
    Holy… how did I miss that? Damn, if that’s not inconsistency I don’t know what is… it’s just like wtf are you even paying attention to your own writing at all at this point?

    Again, I’d have to hear the quote in context, but he may have meant it in an ironic way: “I’d sacrifice myself to a god I don’t even believe in…”

  217. Jorge
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Agree. I like that they slow things down, but this episode just felt like nothing at all happened. Just seemed like they needed to touch on every story, which they pretty much did, but it was all over the place and nothing much came out of it.

    –Robb Talisa is a total borefest. With only ten episodes, I wish they would have spent more time on interesting storylines than a sappy romance.

    –Cersei is pretty incosistent. Last episode she’s bonding with Tyrion over Joffrey being pretty much evil, this episode she suddenly thinks Tyrion wants Joffrey–who doesn’t seem to care about–dead, and she’s already taken action. I don’t really mind the change in character of Cersei, but if they’re going to change, keep it consistent.

    –No weasel soup is a disappointment, and Arya naming Jaqen was very underwhelming. She names him just because he can’t kill Tywin in time? THey should have at least had her try to get him to help her escape, have him explain he can only kill one, and then have her name Jaqen. Gendry and Hot Pie have done so little this season as well, it seems odd that’s she’s bringing them along.

  218. Bean
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Very good episode. And while the jon-plot they came up with in the show is inferior to that in the books, it’s at least come around to being entertaining and somewhat moving.

    Rest of the episode was great. Varys and Tyrion conversations seemed rather wandering and irrelevant (mostly they imparted information to us, but didn’t really make a ton of sense between the two characters), but it’s a novel adaptation and as a book reader I still enjoyed them. And of course I could watch tyrion all day so no complaint, really.

  219. DB
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    Cogman should write all of the episodes tbh. D&D need to calmly step away from the writing while there’s still hope… And I’m saying that partially because of the straying away from the books and the inconstancy and also partially because the writing was very bland this episode, to say the least.

  220. J
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon: Again, I’d have to hear the quote in context, but he may have meant it in an ironic way: “I’d sacrifice myself to a god I don’t even believe in…”

    That was how I took it.

  221. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    WOW – I loved this episode.

    I’m beyond trying to argue with hand-wringing, whining book purist crybabies. We get it, you don’t like changes.

    I am SO enjoying this show – *espcially* the changes!!! It makes it so fresh, and something I look forward to every week. It’s a true pleasure not knowing exactly what’s coming.

    - Loved all the scenes tonight (especially Oona!!!! WOW!!! HOT!!)

    - “That’s the only time a man CAN be brave,” said Robb. I smiled.

    - Yara’s scene with Theon. Very well done.

    - Jamie already starting in on the Wench!

    - Seeing Oona’s curves!

    - Seeing the setup for Jon/Quorin

    - Aaya’s little shrug when Jaqen said “A girl has no honor.” That was awesome.

    - Talisa is fffiiiiiiiiinneee

    - Loved Tyrion’s line: “We should sail there immediately!

    - Smiled at Hot Pie going on and on about food.

    - Great episode.

    All the actors knocked it out of the park – SO good. What a great series, we are so lucky. Can’t wait for Blackwater!

  222. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    About inconsistency: so far has been the biggest mistake this season (imo) and not only with Cersei. What is written in an episode is usually dismissed in the next or it´s barely developed or given a quick and shallow response. Perhaps the whole thing lacks coordination.
    As I said, I only liked two episodes this season, but the episodes itself for its own merits, separated from an overview of the season (as I like the pacing of this one), I can not “glue” them together yet and don´t think I´ll be able to do it with only two episodes to finish.

  223. moofy
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY CATELYN FREED JAIME WITHOUT HEARING ABOUT RICKON AND BRAN. really it makes no sense. in the books it was her grief that pushed her over that edge. chronologically, it would all still match up. why why why? SO RETARDED

  224. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Aren’t most people in general inconsistent? Especially the mentally off-center ones, under which I definitely classify Cersei. I don’t mind it when characters do weird things, as long as their motivations remain intact, and I think Cersei’s have. She has a few, and she cycles through them depending on the episode, but they’re always the same few.

  225. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    It was alright, probably my third favourite of the season after 2 and 7.

    It suffered from the lack of ‘Weasel Soup’ or any of the other cool stuff that happens around this time in the books. I have to say that the decision to keep Tywin in Harrenhal and not have Roose or northern prisoners there was not the strongest one.
    Most of the scenes were quite a bit pointless, probably the only reason it was done was to give Charles Dance something to do.

    I really don’t like the disjunction of Catelyn’s betrayal / Robb’s love story from the news of the ‘deaths’ of Bran and Rickon.

    It also felt like that the writers were ‘grasping’ for an ending again, rather than using one of the natural book cliffhangers (but this is probably because they’ve moved the sacking of Winterfell and The House of the Undying to episode 10).

  226. DH87
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    For those of us who still dislike Ros with the intensity of Seven Fire Gods, Cersei’s threat of retaliation rings hollow indeed. Torture? Bring it on! Tyrion, make sure Joffrey loses a limb or two!

    That can’t be the response D& D were hoping for…. :)

  227. Nicole
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Sorry but that excuse is exhausted, and it wouldn’t require a bunch of money to show Weasel Soup. Speed up Jon and Dany’s scenes and stop reinterating a bunch of back story that book readers know by heart and non readers will never remember because the writing and producing is so lackluster. THe reason why ASOIAF is such a great series, one of the best, is because of the feeling of excitement, tension, frustration, terror, etc. that one experiences when immersed in the world of Westeros. Overall, I have not experienced those feelings watching this series.

    I know it pisses people off on here to complain about the show, but I can tell you that my friends, who have not read the books but are watching the show because of how awesome I said it was going to be, are all majorly disappointed.

    LOST is a great example of how to use dialogue and flashback to move people and to get people excited and pumped up and to get people to be passionate about what they are watching. GOT has failed to do this on a number of levels.

  228. DH87
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    On the other hand, Maisie’s quick shrug of the shoulders with Jaquen….natural, minimal, organic….perfect. Can this actor get any better?

  229. Nicole
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    And one great episode, with a major battle scene, which we all know will amount to barely any changes in the story line is not going to make up for a bunch of wasted time, where people are yawning and looking at the clock to see how long they have been listening to characters babble and no story line progression to have happened.

    OK, I’m done. Not trying to upset anyone, I love ASOIAF like crazy and I have been following every bit of news on the books and the show since I read GOT the first time years ago. I care about how good it can be because I know how good it can be and it could have been done better.

  230. death to lannisters
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Jorge: –Cersei is pretty incosistent. Last episode she’s bonding with Tyrion over Joffrey being pretty much evil, this episode she suddenly thinks Tyrion wants Joffrey–who doesn’t seem to care about–dead, and she’s already taken action. I don’t really mind the change in character of Cersei, but if they’re going to change, keep it consistent.

    I agree with you on this. Some inconsistency is human, and quite believable. But she swings from one to the other too fast, too much. It’s not even really believable that she hates Tyrion so much in general – the vehemence doesn’t make sense. I find her kind of interesting, but I still just want to see the Lannisters die. Sick of their wickedness. Sorry I’m not a book reader, so I see all this adoration for Jamie and Cersei among fans, but i just don’t get it. I’d rather them dead.

  231. cindyash
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    I’d have Tyrion give a pre-battle speech making reference to the little known 8th god, Crispin, and mention that it was his feast day. Then a little later, exhort the defenders to go once more into the breach.

    Hee, I’d enjoy that. Or throw in a bit of Eliz I’s speech pre Armada…

    While I understood the reason Catelyn freed Jaime, even in the book I was screaming at her – ‘are you really that stupid?’ ‘did your husband teach you nothing?’. But then, Im not a mother who’s 4 children are prisoners (or so she thinks) and she’s at her wits end. Still…

  232. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Nicole:
    LOST is a great example of how to use dialogue and flashback to move people and to get people excited and pumped up and to get people to be passionate about what they are watching.

    Wait. LOST wasn’t a comedy? I thought it was supposed to be a parody of primetime dramas…

  233. Mike
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Lots of nice plot-realigning tonight. The feeling that the last couple episodes gave that things were possibly wandering far enough from the books that they’d be irretrievable is gone.

    I’m down to where I think about the only thing that could make this show better would be to have 12 episode seasons instead of 10.

  234. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    First off, I enjoyed the episode. I was fine with the changes, too. I never liked Weasel Soup much, and the whole Lannisters out, Bolton in exchange was awkward as hell in the books and would have been extremely awkward in the show. D&D have made the right call in Harrenhall throughout the season.

    I was expecting Talisa to turn out to be Jeyne. Guess not. Whatever the case, I don’t blame Robb for it a bit. It’s not sleeping with her that makes him an idiot. It’s marrying her.

    As for Jaime and Brienne, that was great too. I do think that the nature of the reveal and the motives for Catelyn releasing Jaime seemed very off, however. I wonder if non-book readers are going to buy into that seeming plot-hole? I somehow doubt it. I think that could have been handled better. It needed two more minutes in last week’s episode.

    But the big change — the one that potentially ranks above all… is Luwin. He suspected strongly in the books, but here — it goes further than that. He’s in contact with them.

    Luwin sees them in the crypts? Could it be that Luwin is NOT going to die? And Donald Sumpter is going to just go off with Rickon instead?

    I have no faith that the Reeds are going to come in at this point. I think they are permanently OUT and it’s Osha, Bran and Hodor over the Wall. The question was where Rickon would go. If Luwin is still alive — that question is easily answered.

    I do hope Luwin makes it out of Season 2 alive. His death scene in the book was a complete bummer. There had been too many deaths at that point. I’d much rather he lives.

  235. Lexyvil
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    Great episode~

    The only flaw was Robb’s Romance.

  236. HugeFloppyGut
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    i agree…that whole scenrio in the books was so much more dramatic then it was portrayed here in the series…that last scene of bran and rickon should of been saved for the last scene of the 2nd season…very dissapointed.

    SillyMammo:
    A bit disappointed that they decided to reveal the whereabouts of Bran and Rickon.Thought that they could have waited at least one more episode.Ah well,good episode!

  237. Zack
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Luwin sees them in the crypts? Could it be that Luwin is NOT going to die? And Donald Sumpter is going to just go off with Rickon instead?

    Please. Pleasepleaseplease. I love the Luwin portrayal. Seeing great characters go is always tough. Let’s give this one a reprieve. I would be so happy.

  238. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Nicole,

    You know,

    I feel your pain and I am speaking form experience here when I say all of this.

    You can’t compare emotional highs you get while investing 100s of hours reading a book with detailed inner thoughts to a 10 hour TV series. Of course they are not going to as severe, I remember times while I was driving when I felt the urge to shout and clap with joy while listening to the audio book… (The ones I can still remember I’d when Jaime goes back for Brienne and says “Her name is Brienne” and when I thought Dany was going to sell off her dragon but gave the fire command and it burned off that dudes face and then she user her wits to command the unsullied to kill all those slavers)

    The TV series is still very good if you compare it to other fantasy series. Trust me I am hypercritical about things to but I never fail to realize this show, overall, is amazing. I know you aren’t a troll and you have a love for the books.

    I think you should try watching the show with more of a laid back view and stop over analyzing things by comparing it to the book and you would enjoy it.

    I want done action too. But I know if you build up relationships and give characters more depth the action scenes that follow are way more intense. Podcast people refer to these buildups as “payoffs”. I rather have a big buildup to get a large intense payoff then a bunch of quickies. (sounds sexual and it is kind of the same idea basically).

    Anyway, this show is awesome and don’t worry about your friends being bored. Sadly most people rather don’t appreciate the time it takes to flesh out a character. Obviously you do, so sit back and enjoy D&D’s world of Westeros knowing that it can never compare to the books and you might enjoy it…

  239. moofy
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    moofy,

    also, IN THE BOOKS CERSEI ASSUMES ALAYAYA IS TYRION’S WHORE BECAUSE HE USES HER QUARTERS AS A FRONT TO VISIT SHEA. BUT THE SHOW SET UP NO SUCH SCENARIO WITH ROS. WHAT WERE D & D THINKING?
    so many dumb choices. not to mention the fact that JAIME WOULD NEVER KILL A LANNISTER.
    The show lost me tonight. you can’t excuse the cutting of characters and key scenes from the book for brevity’s sake when you ADD STUFF THAT’S MUCH WORSE AND INCONSISTENT AND CONVOLUTED. and while the theme song is good, FUCK THE HOPELESSLY CONVENTIONAL AND SOULLESS MUSIC IN THIS SHOW. (and artless use of music to underscore scenes that shouldn’t have music.) FUCK THE DUMB SEX SCENES. FUCK THE SENSATIONALISM OF BRUTALITY. FUCK THE EPISODE AFTER EPISODE OF EXPOSITION. think of all the creative ways the same information could have been imparted. think of all the things they don’t actually HAVE to explain. D & D are just middle of the road bozo’s. semi perverted too, or something. this could have been high art. with a real artist, someone with true inspiration, this could be a MASTERPIECE. with the budget and actors and artistry they have at their disposal, the choices they make are just inexcusable. except there is an excuse, which is that they just aren’t good enough. it doesn’t help that they probably have so much creative control at this point. even the greatest film makers start making trash when nobody is there to tell them “this sucks.” and clearly d& d think they can do no wrong, or something. ego feedback loop. out of control.
    AND FUCK THE BRITISH ACCENTS. NOBODY SPOKE WITH FAKE ACCENTS IN AMADEUS. AND THAT WAS THE BEST PERIOD PIECE EVER. okay i’m drunk and i’ve never commented here, i’m just as excited a fan as anyone, i’ve read this site from the beginning, but THIS WAS IT! any misgivings I had were held at bay with a sense of forgiveness and excitement to see the story come to life. now the misgivings are all fitting together, fusing, to reveal a bigger picture which looks something like FUCK DAVID AND DAN. LEARN HOW TO WRITE YOU PRETENTIOUS FUCKS

  240. Jaqen is Q
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    “The best part of the episode was the Blackwater preview”?!

    The preview isn’t even part of the episode! *sigh* When will they learn…

  241. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    moofy,

    Wow!

    Hope you didn’t drive home tonight dude…

  242. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Well, Yara actually won me over this time, “don’t die so far from the sea.” Tough broad, but she DOES have a heart. Of course, Theon is still in way over his head and too stubborn to see it.

    How is it possible that Ygritte’s nose doesn’t get all red in -30 degree weather? Halfhand is a badass, Jon Snow still knows nothing.

    Love Robb, and they finally lit him well this episode, so good that Lady Talysa couldn’t resist him. Sniffle, sniffle…I yelled at him not to break his vow, but whatev. Scenes all well done though. Catelyn overstepped, Robb is pissed, and now he doesn’t feel like he needs to pay attention to the deal she made for him with the Freys, it makes sense that he’d do what he wants now. Hormonal youth, fohgetaboutit.

    Brienne and Jaime, just like I pictured it in my head. Perfection.

    Tywin spouting about a “wolf at his doorstep” and the camera goes to Arya’s face…priceless. It’s the little things in this episode, but Arya and Jaqen REALLY killed it this time (pun intended). Though weasel soup was omitted, that bit with Arya and Jaqen “Please” was unforgettable. Poor Hot Pie, he’s also over his head.

    Jon Snow is over his head.

    Tyrion is in over his head trying to plan the defense of the city when it should be Tywin doing it. Bronn knows more than Tyrion about sieges, good thing he’s on Tyrion’s side. For now.

    Varys knows its going to get bad, wonder if he sticks around for it?

    Grenn finding the Dragonglass was OK, made sense considering the location and situation. Sam’s a real contradiction, an optimistic pessimist?

    Arya is learning soooooo fast how to play the game, a combination of spoiled brat and manipulative killer…sweet. “A girl lacks honor” Arya shrugs. Priiiiiiceless.

    Knew Roz would be the Alalaya/Chataya sub, but Cersei showed how schizoid she really is. Tyrion was so cool with Cersei, but so emotional with Shae – epic Imp.

    Roose Bolton is a shifty mf…just sayin.

    Love that Gendry has Arya’s back.

    Davos/Stannis conversation was quite interesting, quite revealing. Stannis still holding a grudge about 2 dead men’s deeds of the past. Davos, “I was relieved they did not.” Ha.

    Joffrey has no clue how over his head he is, he is indeed a stupid lunatic.

    Aaaaand back to Winterfell,glad to see Osha has the situation well in hand, she is a hero. And Bran is smarter than anybody knows.

    Maybe that’s the real theme…everybody’s in over their heads and when the chit hits the fan many of them will be drowned in it.

    Next episode looks action packed, and yes, it will play out in a slightly different way than in the books due to the location, but it will still be incredible. Tyrion’s helmet looked cool. Among other things, can’t wait.

  243. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    moofyalso, IN THE BOOKS CERSEI ASSUMES ALAYAYA IS TYRION’S WHORE BECAUSE HE USES HER QUARTERS AS A FRONT TO VISIT SHEA. BUT THE SHOW SET UP NO SUCH SCENARIO WITH ROS. WHAT WERE D & D THINKING?

    They were thinking that Tyrion banged Ros back in Winterfell in the pilot. They were thinking that Ros subsequently travels to King’s Landing and that Cersei puts one and one together to get three. They were thinking that Cersei definitely knows about Ros — because she was aware of the whores who were sent to Joffrey and told us so last episode.

    Seems to me, that D&D did a fair bit of ground work on this change and it worked.

  244. HugeFloppyGut
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    i also agree with robb and cat not knowing that bran and rickon are dead is a huge, shitty change…the main motivation of cat freeing jamie lannistor was b/c she knew her other 2 sons were dead which made her want her daughters back even more. now she just looks like a traitor to robb for freeing the kingslayer

  245. Darren Mason
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    This episode made me realize that I’m a little disappointed with season 2. Granted I’m not a big fan of book 2 in the first place but I think so far season 2 is just “meh”, everything is just so watered down that it just isn’t hitting the mark for me.

    “Talisa” and Robb is dumb, I’m sorry but its dumb and cliche. I love Tyrion’s storyline in the book but show Cersei is weak and is dragging down his storyline this season. Arya is good but they also cut out a lot of the really fun, cool things in her story. The only storyline really pulling it off for me is this season is Theon. oh! and Ygritte is awesome but the overall Jon storyline is underwhelming.

    I’m just glad they’re spitting book 3 into 2 seasons, so hopefully they will be able to take their time and really get into the full awesomeness that is ASOS.

  246. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    I forgot to mention the dragonglass discovery. I am happy that they included it, but I am sad at how this is another instance where they are taking things away from Jon’s storyline. I always thought it was significant that Ghost/Jon found the dragonglass. This is the key to defeating the White Walkers and it was meant for Jon to discover it. My biggest gripe with this season is the downgrading of Jon Snow. In a series with no main character, Jon comes the closest to being the true main protagonist. I wish the show would treat him that way.

  247. Dogmayor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    No one mentions the Kevan Lannister spotting? I’m glad the actor is still on the show.

  248. HugeFloppyGut
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    100% agree…they have made alot of changes that they really didnt have to

    moofy:
    SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY CATELYN FREED JAIME WITHOUT HEARING ABOUT RICKON AND BRAN. really it makes no sense. in the books it was her grief that pushed her over that edge. chronologically, it would all still match up. why why why? SO RETARDED

  249. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Yeah they fleshed out Yara a little more with that scene. You notice how she made all her men leave before she got emotional with Theon?

    Of course Yara loves Theon, that’s her blood. But at the sametime, because she is a woman souroundef by (Vikings), she has to always portray herself as a toughass bitch, so she can keep their respect.

    That scene nailed it.

  250. Mike
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    From Bryan Cogman’s Twitter feed: One week, “There’s too much plot. Let the characters BREATHE.” Next week, “Nothing’s happening! More action!” #ahwellcantpleaseeverybody

  251. HugeFloppyGut
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    No one mentions the Kevan Lannister spotting? I’m glad the actor is still on the show.
    and he will be in the show 2 season from now

  252. Mike
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    While I agree with some sentiments that book purists have when they make critiques about all the changes, I still recognize that this is an amazing show and one of the best on television today, right up there with Breaking Bad and Mad Men. I guess it’s just that my interpretations of the source material aren’t as internalized/extreme as these purists that I can still enjoy the tv series AS a tv series. Hell, I would love to see these book purists write their own screen adaptations of ASoIaF and see if they could come up with something better than Dan and Dave.

  253. Madmage
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    Aren’t most people in general inconsistent? Especially the mentally off-center ones, under which I definitely classify Cersei. I don’t mind it when characters do weird things, as long as their motivations remain intact, and I think Cersei’s have. She has a few, and she cycles through them depending on the episode, but they’re always the same few.

    I saw the previous episode as Cersei feeling weak because she had lost Myrcella and the news of Stannis’ impending arrival made her vulnerable and she opened up a little to Tyrion despite herself.

    This week’s episode, she is fiercer because she thinks she’s gotten a modicum of control back since she thinks she holds power over Tyrion. Especially after she let her guard down previously.

  254. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    Hmmm. So besides book purists being unhappy I guess that is biggest disappointment; Not enough action.

    I tend to agree. D&D not showing Jaime killing a doz men in his failed escape attempt was my biggest beef. That would have quenched the thirst for some action…

  255. Pyrrhus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    I’m pretty disappointed in the hack job they did to Arya’s plotline this episode. Contra Winter, I think it is kind of a big deal that they cut out what would have been more or less the climax of her plot arc this season. Guess there just wasn’t room in the budget or script with Blackwater on the way. The show is starting to feel cramped to me and this episode was lacking action in particular. A well-executed take-over of Harrenhal could have been a big moment. Oh well. I didn’t feel any drama in Arya naming Jaqen either. It was too sunny, and he just seemed annoyed and confused. Oh well!

    Otherwise I felt the episode was kind of blah. The atmosphere in the Tyrion/Cersei, Tyrion/Shae, Robb/Jeyne scenes all felt forced.

    I’m trying to think if there was anything I liked in the episode. The scenes with Varys? Jaime was great as usual. Oh and the final scene with Osha and Maester Luwin was chilling. Not enough to hang an episode on though.

  256. SerCountryFriedSteak
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Nothing happened!!!

    And the House of the Undying is not tip Episode 10!?!?!?!

    I’m not a book purists; but make the changes make the story BETTER and more cinematic. Arya’s escape from Harrenhall is LESS exciting than the book?!?!?

    nTHE EPISODE DIDNT MAKE ME EXCITED FOR NEXT WEEK

    THE TRAILER DID.

    BUT THE EPISODE SHOULD HAVE

  257. Pyrrhus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    HugeFloppyGut:
    100% agree…they have made alot of changes that they really didnt have to

    Assumedly because Catelyn fears that Sansa and Arya will be killed in retaliation if she allows the Northerners to lynch Jaime.

    moofy:
    SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY CATELYN FREED JAIME WITHOUT HEARING ABOUT RICKON AND BRAN. really it makes no sense. in the books it was her grief that pushed her over that edge. chronologically, it would all still match up. why why why? SO RETARDED

  258. Mike
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Nicole,

    Whatever kid, you’ and you’re friends are obviously the minority.

  259. Bill
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Nicole:
    ThePinkDragon,

    Please enlighten us as to how you would make it better. Why don’t you write to HBO and make your case as to how you are a better showrunner/writer than the guys currently running GOT. I would really love to see that.
    Sorry but that excuse is exhausted, and it wouldn’t require a bunch of money to show Weasel Soup. Speed up Jon and Dany’s scenes and stop reinterating a bunch of back story that book readers know by heart and non readers will never remember because the writing and producing is so lackluster. THe reason why ASOIAF is such a great series, one of the best, is because of the feeling of excitement, tension, frustration, terror, etc. that one experiences when immersed in the world of Westeros. Overall, I have not experienced those feelings watching this series.

    I know it pisses people off on here to complain about the show, but I can tell you that my friends, who have not read the books but are watching the show because of how awesome I said it was going to be, are all majorly disappointed.

    LOST is a great example of how to use dialogue and flashback to move people and to get people excited and pumped up and to get people to be passionate about what they are watching. GOT has failed to do this on a number of levels.

  260. oh-bb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    I am pretty down with most of the changes, but I agree that I wanted more of Robb struggling with his honor. This is the first change that’s really rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe he did it for passion in the books and maybe not, but there WAS something else to it — the emotion of dealing with the supposed deaths of his brothers and stress and then the sex and the fallout of that. In the show it’s just, “oh, hey, you’re a pretty cool chick and also hot, so we should totes do it, though I’m probably going to really screw up half my alliance, but hey, that’s cool.”

    I know he’s young and passionate and horny and all, but I really wanted more out of that storyline, if they were going to play it up. Oh well. Really great moments in this episode. Loved Varys/Tyrion/Bronn to bits.

  261. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    This season needed 12 episodes. Things were cut that shouldn’t have been. The story is condensed. Stannis wasn’t developed enough for the non-book reader. Tyrion’s role in planning the defense wasn’t developed enough. This all could have been solved with 12 episodes. Hopefully splitting ASOS will help next season, but I worry that they will try to squeeze in every character instead of focussing on just a few. I really wonder if it wouldn’t be better to simply push back most of the Dany stuff from ASOS into season 4. Tough decisions need to be made if they want to develope the characters more and not condense so many storylines. Is Dany’s ASOS plot timeline that important? Given the garbage she has in ADWD it would be wise to save some of her best stuff from ASOS to replace some of the ADWD storyline.

  262. oh-bb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Oh! And Blackwater looks TREMENDOUS.

  263. Andrew
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    I think at this point in the show I can safely say… the books are SOOO much better. Guess my expectations were too high. Still a good show for non-readers though

  264. Jorge
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Not really. How would Cersei know that Ros is the whore that Tyrion saw all the way back at Winterfell? And why would Ros go along with the ruse when Cersei presents her in front of Tyrion? She shouldn’t owe Tyrion any loyalty, especially considering it was because of Tyrion using her as a birthday gift for Joffrey that she had to torture one of her coworkers.

  265. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    My two favorite moments from this episode (paraphrasing):

    1) “I’m warning you!”
    “Go ahead, warn me.”

    2) “A girl lacks honor.”
    *shrug*

  266. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Jorge,

    Cersei mentions that Ros was wearing a golden Lannister Lion necklace that Tyrion used to own. Presumedly he gave it to Ros as payment back at Winterfell.

  267. ghost
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    It hard to do reviews because each episode ties in with future ones.

    The acting is top notch. I’m going to defend Asha Greyjoy from Winter is Coming, she did amazing this episode.

    The costumes and places are among the best.

    The story of course is among the best.

    The only thing that brings the series down is cheap sex scenes and some cheezy scenes like when Jamie killed his cousin dude.

    So far the best series I have seen, even better than “The Wire”, which I’m getting into as well and it’s good.

  268. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Andrew,

    The books are always better… Unfortunately.

  269. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    ghost,

    All this talk about ‘The Wire’ is making me want to by the Blu-ray on amazon. Is it worth it? How many seasons is it/episodes per season?

  270. Andrew
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    HugeFloppyGut,

    She was a traitor either way. Now, she seems slightly less stupid a traitor. The Northmen were going to kill Jamie before Robb got back, so she knew that would mean her daughters would die as well. In the books, grief destroyed her judgement, and Jamie wasn’t in any immediate danger. Her motivations in the show were much better, in my oppinion.

  271. LordDavos12
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:
    First off, I enjoyed the episode. I was fine with the changes, too. I never liked Weasel Soup much, and the whole Lannisters out, Bolton in exchange was awkward as hell in the books and would have been extremely awkward in the show. D&D have made the right call in Harrenhall throughout the season.

    I was expecting Talisa to turn out to be Jeyne. Guess not. Whatever the case, I don’t blame Robb for it a bit. It’s not sleeping with her that makes him an idiot. It’s marrying her.

    As for Jaime and Brienne, that was great too. I do think that the nature of the reveal and the motives for Catelyn releasing Jaime seemed very off, however. I wonder if non-book readers are going to buy into that seeming plot-hole? I somehow doubt it. I think that could have been handled better. It needed two more minutes in last week’s episode.

    But the big change — the one that potentially ranks above all… is Luwin.He suspected strongly in the books, but here — it goes further than that. He’s in contact with them.

    Luwin sees them in the crypts? Could it be that Luwin is NOT going to die? And Donald Sumpter is going to just go off with Rickon instead?

    I have no faith that the Reeds are going to come in at this point. I think they are permanently OUT and it’s Osha, Bran and Hodor over the Wall. The question was where Rickon would go. If Luwin is still alive — that question is easily answered.

    I do hope Luwin makes it out of Season 2 alive. His death scene in the book was a complete bummer. There had been too many deaths at that point. I’d much rather he lives.

    It’s totally Jeyne. And you do know the reason Robb marries her right? It’s because he sleeps with her…he has too much honor not to.

  272. ghost
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    The Wire is supposed to be one of the best series ever made. Just watch it on HBO GO.

    12 episodes per season I think.

    I really TV shows that have characters with really hard decisions to make. Like with family members and stuff.

  273. Jorge
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    It’s a great show, though for me I prefer HBOGO since those HBO box sets are ridicuously expensive. The Wire seasons had five seasons that alternated between 13 and 12 episodes, until it got to season five, which was only 10 episodes. I would also highly recommend Deadwood. I do like Game of Thrones, but honestly, both The Wire adn Deadwood blow it out of the water.

  274. LordDavos12
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    The Wire is a great show, definitely worth a purchase.

  275. LordDavos12
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    Jorge,

    Fuck yeah, Deadwood! If GoT hadn’t come along I’d say Deadwood was the best show HBO ever had on the network.

  276. tony
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Underwhelming episode, watched it with 3 non book reader friends and they felt there was a lot of wasted scenes and pointless stuff that happened. Why did they not let Robb and Cat know that Bran and Rickon were “killed”? Would of made MUCH more sense that she let him go after hearing her two children died, she wants to get her other two our of harms way (Arya and Sansa). Probably the worst episode of the season and possibly the series, too much messing around with the story… I don’t get it

  277. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Awesome thx for the info guys…

    I will buy it on Blu-ray and check it out. I feel the need to own things rather then HBOGO.

    Thanks again!

  278. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Well, that was my fear: the change in the motivations of Catelyn due to the non-reveal of Bran+Rickon’s death did not go over well with non-readers. Larry hated it.

    I honestly did not think it was as bad an episode as Larry found it to be and I enjoyed it.

    Ah well. *shrug*

  279. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Jorge,

    Cersei mentions that Ros was wearing a golden Lannister Lion necklace that Tyrion used to own. Presumedly he gave it to Ros as payment back at Winterfell.

    He did. Ros shows the necklace to Theon in Season 1.

  280. vmaturity
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    I don’t think there was any inconsistency with Cersei’s character at all. Time and time again throughout the show, she has shown unconditional love for her children (Season 1- when she shares Catelyn’s maternal woes after Bran is pushed off the tower; her heart to heart with Joffrey about what it means to be a Lannister in King’s Landing… Season 2- telling Sansa she must learn to love her betrothed despite admitting his difficulty; despite acknowledging Joff’s insanity to Tyrion, she argues that she loves all her children- Tommen Myrcella and Joff).

    I think the audience is supposed to recognize Cersei’s conflicted feelings toward Joffrey, but above all they are also supposed to remember that she is still a (somewhat) rational mother. In both the books and in the show, we know that she did not wish for Ned Stark to die, as having him take the black could have avoided a war. But she still (reluctantly) supported his decision in the end because she is his mother. It’s the same case with her power play.

  281. Tyrion Sedai
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Jorge,

    Cersei mentions that Ros was wearing a golden Lannister Lion necklace that Tyrion used to own. Presumedly he gave it to Ros as payment back at Winterfell.

    In fact we don’t even have to presume. They showed it in season 1 when Ros was teasing Theon about being jealous of Tyrion.

  282. Kevin
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    The fantasy elements of the book are being taken out bit by bit. It’s really depressing. And after they built up the fact that the direwolfs and dragons are getting bigger, and then only having them in a couple scenes….meh…

    This battle next episode better be good.

  283. Morgan King
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    moofy,

    The Karstarks were going to kill Jaime that night, and if he dies, its much more likely that Cercei will have little reason to keep her girls alive. Even though she takes the blame here, Robb would have lost Jaime as a prisoner regardless.

  284. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    Kevin,

    Yeah I do agree that the lack of Direwolves and Dragons is a little noticeable. I mean, where is Ghost? I love those wolves, they need to be around a little more. I hope season 3 with Bran learning how to consciously warg, with the Reeds help, we will see a lot more fantasy stuff…

  285. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:08 am | Permalink

    So far I think, IMO, the two most justifiable complaints have been;

    1). Lack of action
    2). Lack of fantasy elements

  286. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:08 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I also noticed that Larry thought that the scene between Robb and Talisa added absolutely nothing to the overall story.

  287. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    OK things I liked:

    - Asha was awesome, sure she’s different from the book but damn, does she have presence or what? (also I know a lot of people may think this was a slow episode, but I love the character building and showing that this show has a lot of substance, it doesn’t need action to sustain it, though I still love my action and methinks next week will be full of it!).
    - Rattleshirt rattling! Also his giants helm looks cool as hell.
    - Jaime and Brienne banter, can’t wait for more! “Women? horses?” I REALLY want to see them fight, It’d be even better than Jaime vs. Ned I bet.
    - Bronn keeping his hands clean.
    - Tyrion being awesome.
    - Varys! (I wish Conleth Hill will get more recognition and interviews and such, he is just perfect.)
    - Dragonglass!
    - “Un-name me!… no…… Please?”
    - Roose, oh boy, you creepy awesome bastard.
    - Robb and Talisa, I wish more sex scenes were like this.
    - Davos and Stannis, “Every man in Storms End wanted to kiss you that night.” “I am relieved they did not.” I still can’t decide if they are my favourite bromance, or Tyrion and Bronn.
    - Jorah and Dany, awwwwww.
    - DIAF Theon.

    Things I didn’t like:

    - Theon, Alfie continues to do a great job but I still hate you Theon.
    - I wasn’t expecting it this episode but DAMN did I want to see Qhorin and Jon duke it out.
    - Catelyn, why? Of course we all knew this was coming, but ugh, reminds me of why I hated her character in the book.
    - I hate the fact that I sort of like show Shae now.
    - Joffrey you fantastic little shit, as if you could give Stannis a Sicilian smile.

  288. Violentos
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    I was waiting for some sort of mention of Tyrion’s plan for the chain… but alas. I truly hope they don’t cut out that whole scene.

  289. LordDavos12
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    ANiceChianti:
    Steel_Wind,

    I also noticed that Larry thought that the scene between Robb and Talisa added absolutely nothing to the overall story.

    Now I enjoy reading/hearing reviews as much as anyone, but I still have yet to understand why anybody gives a shit about what Larry thinks.

  290. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    Oh yeah, and apparently he feels there was no point for Arya to even meet Jaquen.

  291. LionOfLannister
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    Why would anyone have expected Weasel soup? Has the storyline even remotely gone down that path? If the name Weasel has even been mentioned I missed it.

  292. Arthur
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    I totally agree! His opinions are neither insightful, controversial or unique. From my understanding his review was amusing because his overreactions.

    But now he has a cult following that are obsessed with him…

  293. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    Yeah I found Larrys naievity charming at first, but I’m getting sick of listening to him now. It’s a shame because I really enjoy his reviews, but they just aren’t as fun as they used to be.

  294. Hilda
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    I have not watched yet but read recaps and what I was looking forward to the most was arya’s killings! I feel cheated!

  295. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    I think his reviews are entertaining, but in these two particular instances, I find the way he presents his opinions as ironic. Usually he will hypothesize about what he thinks will occur in a thoughtful manner. Sometimes he’s right, and sometimes he’s not. It’s hilarious that he is presenting these two opinions as if it is fact that these scenes have been useless wastes of our time, and he is positive of this. Meanwhile, we know that these characters lives are forever changed by these seemingly “trivial” interactions.

  296. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    ANiceChianti:
    Steel_Wind,
    I also noticed that Larry thought that the scene between Robb and Talisa added absolutely nothing to the overall story.

    That doesn’t make him right. He says that because he does not know where the story is going. It’s easily the biggest event in the episode.

  297. the goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    “I asked him how a man can be brave if he’s afraid? That”s the only time a man can be brave, he told me.”
    Nice way to work that one in there.

    “You’re even uglier in the daylight.”

    “I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you are safe and happy, and your joy will turn to ashes in your month. And you will know the debt is paid.”

    As far as Cersei, there’s actually two separate scenes in the book where she acts nice to Tyrion. Once she hugs him, and later she even gives him a kiss (although the second time he realizes she’s probably plotting something). The only thing that was really a change was her admitting that Joff was out of control.

  298. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Yeah… I just said that. ;)

  299. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    I enjoy Larry’s reviews because it’s that of somebody who is entirely open to the fantasy elements and serialized nature of the story — a perfect potential fanboi — who approaches the series as a total noob; tablua rasa, as it were.

    He’s the “best case” example of how the series plays out to an audience who has not read the books. I enjoy Larry’s comments for that reason. If he were to read the books, it would ruin the most enjoyable aspect of his reviews and I would not bother anymore.

  300. Syrio
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:32 am | Permalink

    I really don’t think Arya’s arc in season 2 was well done at all. Not enough terror, not enough darkness, not enough determination, not enough darkening of her heart, not enough agency on her part. She feels like she’s the same character she was at the end of season1.

  301. LordDavos12
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:
    LordDavos12,

    I enjoy Larry’s reviews because it’s that of somebody who is entirely open to the fantasy elements and serialized nature of the story — a perfect potential fanboi — who approaches the series as a total noob; tablua rasa, as it were.

    He’s the “best case” example of how the series plays out to an audience who has not read the books. I enjoy Larry’s comments for that reason. If he were to read the books, it would ruin the most enjoyable aspect of his reviews and I would not bother anymore.

    Totally fine, and I understand your point of view. Call me a cynic, but for some reason or other, I think Larry actually knows what’s going on, and is just attempting to get more views. I might be wrong, and apologies if I am…I just think he attempts to be outrageous for subscribers.

  302. the goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    Also, I WANT Roose’s sigil jerkin or shirt or whatever!

    Damn, this week is gonna take soooooooo long

  303. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    From one o the worst episodes of the season to next week’s epicness!
    I don’t think these have been posted here yet…. I scanned the posts….
    HBO released 2 more promo videos for Blackwater….

    Battle Tease:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WYMZUuNruA&feature=plcp

    Five Kings Trailer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwgOzLG5IGo&feature=plcp

  304. evilclosetmonkey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    3 things really bothered me in this episode:

    1. More of Dany whining about being special and magicky. I never felt this way about book Dany but she irritates the hell out of me on the show sometimes. I don’t like that her khalasar is pretty much all dead (I know, didn’t happen this episode) and Jorah suggesting they leave they dragons made me really angry. Just go to the House of the Undying already, why are you hanging out in Qarth doing nothing and why are Xaro & Pree allowing you to do so?

    2. The other rangers dying because Jon just couldn’t decide what to do with Ygritte. Why has Jon been made to look so incompetent this season? I cannot understand the why they made the changes they’ve made to his story here and I feel that alot of the power of Jon’s arc in book two has been lost. The scene where he kills Qhorin just isn’t going to mean as much.

    3. Small bit between Arya & Tywin (which has mostly been excellent) but Tywin telling her to not let Gregor get too drunk while Gregor looks bored really rankled. Tywin knows what he has in Gregor and it’s an ill-tempered, murderous rape machine. How is Arya going to prevent Gregor from doing anything? He’d kill her without a second thought. And where is Gregor’s rage? He looks so bored with everything.

    And three things that bothered me but not as much:

    1. Robb wasn’t very conflicted about sleeping with Talisa/Jeyne, maybe the struggle comes later, I hope so.

    2. Wish Arya would’ve killed a guard to get out.

    3. Tyrion seems like he is freaking clueless about this siege, that scene would’ve played better for me earlier in the season. I will be irate if there is no chain. As it is, I’m irritated that it hasn’t been hinted at by this point.

  305. Galen Firestone
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    Couple of things I noticed about “Talisa.”

    1. You notice how after they went to the Crag no one said her name ONCE? (Also why in the prior episode she appeared distressed when Robb mentioned taking her to the Crag in the first place?) This strikes me as a clumsy attempt to hide her identity, like Robb got the big reveal but the audience didn’t. As to the Volantis stuff, wasn’t Jeyne’s grandmother a foreigner? They might be changing that little detail to make her half foreigner… I don’t know. I just FEEL that Jeyne Westerling’s in there somewhere.

    2. This might be the first time in the show’s history that they’ve used a body double for a nude scene. Now I can’t be 100% certain, but this is the first time the camera’s been positioned in such a way so as to obscure the actress’ face during any nudity. I might be wrong here, my brain was filled with thoughts of “Damn you costume department!” for the third time they telegraphed impending nudity with the use of quick-release dresses. Not that on this show it SHOULD be a surprise, but… feh.

    3. Just my opinion, but Jeyne Westerling or no, Oona Chaplain’s Talisa is SO much more interesting than her book counterpart. She is a fascinating character, and I really love the medical angle here, it’s something we haven’t seen on the show outside of the Maesters, and they’re too damn intellectual about it.

  306. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    evilclosetmonkey,

    Agreed on all points!

    Both Dany and Jon hav been so different than I read them to be it is disconcerting watching their scenes at times.

    I have come to terms with the Chain not making it into the series now sadly…. I always looked at it as one of Tyrion’s greatest achievements. I find it odd they left it out, but maybe it was a money issue? They figured they CGI cost of showing all the boats held in by the chain to be too expensive?

  307. Kaeth
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    evilclosetmonkey,

    I took the whole tywin saying that to the mountain as his way of knowing what he has a killing and raping machine, and him saying that was his way of letting the mountain know that he liked the girl and he didnt want anything to happen to her.

  308. Nyahs
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    No Jaqen H’ghar face changing, valar dohaeris line or giving Arya the coin grr /sadface.

  309. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    Galen Firestone,

    They’ve changed so much about “Jeyne” already… I wonder if it’s too much to ask if they could just change a little something more about her, down the line. Especially now that it looks like she may not have to contend with interfering family members.

  310. LordDavos12
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    Nyahs:
    No Jaqen H’ghar face changing, valar dohaeris line or giving Arya the coingrr /sadface.

    Wait another two weeks :)

  311. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    darquemode,

    If the chain doesn’t make it in, then what will turn the tide of the battle? It can’t be just the wildfire, because Joff was already planning on using that. what would have been the point of Uncle Tyrion’s involvement at all?

    Also, I would really miss the horrific visuals.

  312. JamesL
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    “In the books, Joffrey wasn’t nearly as cruel” Yes he was, adding one scene with him abusing prostitutes in the show doesn’t make him a more cruel character than book Joffrey. Abusing prostitutes to teach his uncle a lesson isn’t something out of character of book Joffrey, it is something I could see him doing in the books if given the opportunity. He has his soon to be wife who is 13 stripped and beaten in court to “pay for her brothers treason” so I don’t see how abusing prostitutes would be out of character or make him more cruel than in the books. Didn’t book Joffrey shoot and kill peasants asking for food with his crossbow? He was just as much an evil sadistic teen in the books as he is in the show.

  313. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:06 am | Permalink

    ANiceChianti,

    I have no idea sinceI have been wondering the same thing….

    In the preview I posted above Varys tells Tyrion (I assume) that he is the only man that can save King’s Landing. Well with war on the doorstep or even the battle already begun Tyrion cannot come up with hte idea of a chain and have i built….

    The only way I can see a chain still being kept in the story is if somewhere in Tyrion’s reading of old books he comes across a long-forgotten defensive mechanism already built into King’s Landing. Could they make the chain already in place but unused in centuries maybe?

    If they do not use the chain then I would think Tyrion has to come up with some brilliant tactical shift. Some defense of the city no one esle thought of…. I cannot foresee what they would do in that case.

  314. Syrio
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    Another thing I don’t like is that they never showed Jaime’s oath to Catelyn prior to his release that he would return Sansa and Arya and would not take up sword against the Starks or Tullys.

    That oath is kinda important.

  315. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    A solid but not spectacular episode. I like the change in regards to Rob and the non-Jeyne, as they have done a nice job of showing him falling for Talisa and she is worth falling in love with. In the book Jenyne is dreadfully dull and left me wondering why Robb would betray his oath to the Freys for her. In the show Talisa is smart, competent and beautiful and so it makes sense to me why a young man like Robb would fall in love with her. Thought the scene was great and approve of the change.

    Very glad they explained the Onion knight for the non book readers. I love Davos in the books so nice he got a litttle bit of love.

    I really find it hard to credit people who say they are greatly disappointed by this series and then go on to say how many of their friends don’t like it. This show has grown in popularity because it is excellently done, the acting is top notch, the writing is great, and it is easily the best show on TV. The fact that they have made changes is primarily due to time and the nature of adapting a book to TV, but also some of the changes were neeeded becasue not everything Martin has written is perfect or makes sense even in the first three books which clearly stand head and shoulders above book four and five.

    As much as I love this series there is no doubt that Martin is floundering right now with AFOC and ADWD. Too many characters, too many storylines and he is caught in his own web of complexity. I really do hope he can turn it around.

    But so far the TV adaptation while not perfect is marvelous and hope it continues to shine.

  316. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Syrio,

    Good point.

  317. Arya Dunyett
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    There were some fine scenes tonight: Tyrion/Varys/Bronn, Jamie/Brienne (what a fantastic couple of characters/actors!), Tywin ahorse and daunting, the troops marching single file across the frozen lake, Dany/Jorah, Arya/Jaqen always walking off with it.

    But I’d like to know why Jaqen couldn’t kill Tywin – not that I want him to – but why not? He clearly said several times that Arya could say “any name” and he would be dead. Messy writing.

    I was seriously disappointed in the Robb/Talisa scenes. The leisurely walk up the hill accompanied by horsed chaperones was ludicrous. Saddle sores perhaps? Whisker burns? If only.

    And why would a woman other than Robb’s mother interrupt his meetings with his bannermen? He’s a king at war and she barges into his tent to ask him (I couldn’t believe this) how he is!!! I could have written that! So he tells her of his busy, harrowing situation which makes the impending love scene all the more gratuitous.

    Then we see them (without any apparent chemistry) tear off each other’s clothing. The door/drape over the entrance was open, the floor looked like bare plywood, and Talisa’s dress was already partially undone as she entered. I can’t believe this scene was allowed into the show.

    I was looking forward to the love scene between two attractively naked, fine actors. Actually, I was hoping for a bedroom scene at the Crag where they wouldn’t likely be interrupted, where we could see them making suckingly slow sweet love in front of the fireplace.

    While the writers used a fine opportunity to flesh out a story line that I missed in the books, the love scene and the rather boring extended background that Talisa provides while seducing the King in the North seem only to be setting the audience emotionally up for season 3. D&D are better than that. They should have consulted their wives.

    Onwards and forwards to episodes 8 and 9. They will be great! I have faith.

  318. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:19 am | Permalink

    Syrio,

    Great point!
    I had forgotten about that oath being in that scene since that scene does not come in ACoK…. It is VERY important indeed.

  319. Kaeth
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    Syrio,

    ya i was wondering the same thing i figured that might be the second scene tonite after theon and yara.

  320. Virtus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    Now, if they skip his face changing and him giving her the coin, I will cry foul. But I feel confident that Arya will run into Jaqen again before the end of the season.

    The actor playing Jaqen mentioned the face changing in one interview. And we know that episode 10 is named Valar Morghulis.

  321. mikhail
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    yea man that pissed me off when i saw it a was like wtf an how is it that osha moving around in the day light

  322. Lyonel the Red
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:35 am | Permalink

    Good:
    -Stannis&Davos, Stannis&Davos, Stannis&Davos. I love that the story of the siege of Storm’s End has been told.
    -Jamie and Brienne. Pure gold.
    -Varys is back. R’hllor be praised.
    -Arya’s escape.
    -Roose Bolton.
    Bad:
    -No House of the Undying. Meaning it’ll happen episode 20. It makes me worried about seeing Arstan
    -Talisa: I am okey with them having sex. But that story she told Robb. She is Jeyne Westerling for God’s sake. Not some Volantene lady.

    4 stars only.

  323. evilclosetmonkey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Kaeth,

    Maybe that was the point but it fell flat for me. This is the guy that raped and killed Elia of Dorne because he wasn’t specifically told not to. The Mountain is not a subtle creature. Why not bring her with if you’re concerned enough about Gregor to say something about it? Or given that you’ve had problems with not being specific enough with Gregor in the past, just tell Gregor flat out, “Do not rape or kill or harm my cupbearer.” No room for horrific misunderstanding then.

  324. barb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Renaud Besse-Bourdier,

    i was thinking the same thing, lol, trying to get his story back on track.

  325. the goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:39 am | Permalink

    Syrio,

    We don’t see him give her the oath in the book either.

    ANiceChianti: If the chain doesn’t make it in, then what will turn the tide of the battle?

    Pretty sure the tide of battle will be turned by the fact that Tywin and the Tyrells show up, y’know, exactly like in the book? Even with the chain and the wildfire KL would’ve still been overrun if they hadn’t shown up. The chain was awesome, and it makes Tyrion look even more badass, but it didn’t win the battle. And most people already think Tyrion’s a badass.

  326. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    I don’t think there is a hope in the seven hells that there will be a chain. It is out. Brace yourselves now and just enjoy the show for what it is, or don’t. It isn’t as good as the books, no adaptation is. I do think they can do a better job than they did this season. I am starting to believe that they placed all of their eggs in the ‘Blackwater’ basket. So much time and effort was spent shooting this one episode that the rest have suffered a bit. I hope the final two episodes deliver. They certainly need to.

  327. evilclosetmonkey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    It’s like Vader pointing to Boba Fett and saying “No disintegrations.” Rape & murder is the default setting for GREGOR.

  328. Obsidian
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    Meh. Meh. Meh.

    So wrong to put Catelyn’s release of Jaime before the news of Bran and Rickon’s deaths. So she just got suckered in by LF again..missed a powerful scene between her and Brienne , and made Cat completely stupid instead of sick with grief.
    Oh .. but we get another couple of soppy stories from Talisa and Yara . I’ve lost patience with this ploy Cersei’s invented baby story was pointless last season and so were both of these…These are all talented actors , I think they could believably express emotion without these contrived soap opera tales. All of Robb / Talisa is annoying. The strolling conversation was again , entirely too modern.

    And Jaqen ? All that stuff with Tywin ..of course it was entertaining ..It was Charles Dance , and Maisie totally rose to the occasion.. but in the end , it didn’t mean much, and the Jaqen relationship was left sadly underdeveloped as a consequence. I can’t see how certain of Arya’s future actions will be as meaningful as a result.Even if Jaqen makes one last appearance ,the depth that could have been there has been robbed to make room for Tywin.

    And Jon’s complete dumbing down and being the cause of Quorin’s men’s deaths is pretty ridiculous .

    I expect George’s episode will re-enthuse me. But this episode won’t be high on my re-watch list.

  329. LionOfLannister
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    Arya Dunyett:

    But I’d like to know why Jaqen couldn’t kill Tywin – not that I want him to – but why not? He clearly said several times that Arya could say “any name” and he would be dead. Messy writing.

    Messy writing? Since we’re throwing around accusations, I’m going to have to say you weren’t paying attention. It wasn’t that Jaqen couldn’t kill Tywin, it’s that he couldn’t kill Tywin right now , before he went off to meet her brother in battle. A man has patrol duty.

  330. evilclosetmonkey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    I was pretty happy with episodes 11-15. A few quibbles but nothing too bad. I still love the series and think it is great TV but 16 & 18 have been two of my least favorite episodes of the entire series. You may be right, too much concentration on the one battle.

  331. Virtus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    I do wonder about Jeyne/Talisa. Many have assumed that she is merely masquerading as a volantene lady, but her story implied that she had genuine memories from Volantis. Yet we also know that she has been called Jeyne in production pictures and that she has a link to Crag.

  332. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    Anyone notice that Cersei orders “Ser Mandon” to bring Ros into the room?

  333. Nick Larter
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    I’m not a great book purist, but have to say changing Arya’s escape from Harrenhal is disappointing. Possibly my favourite moment from ACoK Hot Pie: ‘Y y y you’ve killed him.’ Arya: ‘Well what did you think I would do?’ A badass moment lost.

  334. Bean
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:13 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    The wire is the best TV show that has ever been made. it will change your life. But it’s not really TV, it’s too moving. It’s more like a gripping documentary dramatized for effect.

    I love GOT but it’s not even close to the quality of the wire, especially as you watch through season 4.

  335. Virtus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    moofy: LEARN HOW TO WRITE YOU PRETENTIOUS FUCKS

    You learn how to write without capslock on. People who write with caps tend to be idiots.

  336. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:24 am | Permalink

    As much as I am enjoying this season as there has been a lot of shining moments throughout, the inconsistency is a big issue. That scene with Cersei and Tyrion was epic. Lena was fantastic. But coming off of their previous scene in episode 7? They needed something to tie in Cersei’s emotional state. This season seems like there are several scenes missing to connect the dots. It seems like D and D really struggled with this adaptation. Maybe they were too ambitious?

    And I agree 100% that they focused on Blackwater too much. Hopefully it will not disappoint.

    In the end, this could never be a perfect show. One would need Bill Gates as a benefactor to finance a multi-million dollar production outside of a studio budget to keep things coherent. If anything, this season displays the limitations of television adaptation all too well. Not enough time, not enough money, not enough cohesion with the writers, a rushed post production and too strong a focus on spectacle and CGI (the Blackwater, dragons, Direwolves, smoke monsters). Maybe HBO will agree to more episodes in season 4 or allot several more for season 3.

    Let’s see how 19 and 20 pan out….

  337. Jambo
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:25 am | Permalink

    I don’t know why, but Jaqen casually kicking that chicken was hilarious.

  338. jarnomiedema
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:27 am | Permalink

    First of all, I have to say that Ramin Djawadi’s score is absolutely brilliant. Multiple times this episode I thought to myself: ‘wow, this sounds awesome!’ Then, at the end reveal, they play the Winterfell / North theme and I’m almost in tears. I cannot wait (more like ‘dread the day’) it’ll be played when the Red Wedding takes place.. I’m pretty sure manly tears will be shed when that happens..

    As for the rest, I was really hoping to see Tyrion order the smiths at the street of steel to work on the chain, but who knows, it might still show up? If it doesn’t, that’s too bad..

    Can’t wait to see what happens next week! Just two more episodes to go! :(

  339. Virtus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    Syrio:
    Another thing I don’t like is that they never showed Jaime’s oath to Catelyn prior to his release that he would return Sansa and Arya and would not take up sword against the Starks or Tullys.

    That oath is kinda important.

    We don’t see that oath in real time in the books either; we only hear about it when Jaime thinks back to it in the beginning of ASOS.

  340. Virtus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:53 am | Permalink

    Preview footage of the House of the Undying scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTSGSkl3Zk

  341. Magnus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    About Robb and Talisa: We shouldn’t forget that Robb is a young man, who never had sex before. I don’t blame him at all, especially since his equally honor-bound half brother ( well, maybe… ^^ ) is soon to make the same kind of decision.

  342. christmas is coming
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:17 am | Permalink

    We book fans sure do moan about the littlest of things…

    GRRM wrote next weeks episode..so I’m pretty sure the writers wanted George to write the “big moments” of this season, Battle of Blackwater, House of the undying etc!

    And also whats everyone’s problem with Ros? did she replace some minor character I can’t remember from the books? Just relax and enjoy it!

  343. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    Honestly I always took it as Tyrion’s actions did in fact save King’s Landing and he was as responsible for the victory if not more than Tywin.
    If not for Tyrion’s preparations (none of which have been shown in the series) far in advance of the seige of King’s Landing – including the chain keeping all of Stannis’s ships in Blackwater Bay so the wildfire could engulf them, sending Littlefinger to align with the Tyrell’s via marriage to Joffrey, and sending out his tribesman to take out Stannis’ scouts allowing Tywin to arrive unnoticed – and for Tyrion himself leading soldiers out to reclaim King’s Gate, Tywin could have arrived too late to do anything.

  344. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    Well… kind of disappointed. Fairly average episode, on par with last week.

    -Really disappointed about the lack of weasel soup, and the anti-climatic “escape” (i.e. casual walk) out of Harrenhal. :(

    -The Talisa monologue… OH. MY. GOD. Possibly the worst scene of the entire series so far. I cringed the entire time, and it just kept going… and going… and going… Every single word out of Oona Chaplin’s mouth was utterly boring, aggrivating, and annoying. I finally had to leave the room and take a bathroom break, because it was pissing me off so much… then, when I came back, SHE WAS STILL TALKING.

    Maybe I’ll like that scene more, on a re-watch… but honestly, it was pretty brutal. More than anything, I just wanted her to shut up.

    Best parts of the episode were some hilarious bits of dialogue from Tywin/Bronn/Varys.

  345. gurgi
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    After listening to the epically boring scene between Robb and Talisa I actually found myself missing the sexposition. The whole dumb speech could of been given with Robb doing her doggy style!

  346. gurgi
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    Also I have to say I actually cheered when Ros was dragged out all beaten up. Man I was growing tired of her and seeing the happy whore looking a little worse for wear was a happy moment.

  347. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    I loved last week’s episode, but I was expecting more this week. I was really disappointed in the closure of Arya’s Harrenhal storyline. It made it seem as though her entire ACOK story was scrapped just to give Tywin some scenes. As I stated earlier, I want Arya to get her hands dirty in season 3 and let her inner ‘Hit Girl’ out.

    I feel like they wasted an opportunity to show a great scene that wasn’t shown in the books by leaving out Catelyn’s release of Jaime. 3-4 minutes is all they needed. They could have found an extra 3-4 minutes to include that scene.

  348. jarnomiedema
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    Oh by the way, I still fear Dagmer Clefjawmight be Reek / Ramsay Snow in disguise. As much as that would frustrate me, there’s just something about his armor, particularly the fact that the Kraken has been removed / flayed (did he stick a sword through an Ironborn’s chest?)

    Plus, from the dialogue it seemed pretty obvious that he was involved with the killing of the farmer’s boys, which was Reek’s idea to begin with..

    All in all, I’m interested in seeing how the Bastard of the Dreadfort storyline will turn out, though I do fear that, in the last episode of the season there’ll be a reveal on that front..

  349. Madmage
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    JamesL: n’t make it in, then what will turn the tide of the battle? It can’t be just the wildfire, because Joff was already planning on using that. what would have been the point of Uncle Tyrion’s involvement at all?

    Honestly, the only difference I see between TV-Joffrey and Book-Joffrey is that the former is a lot more willful vs his mother than the latter. Cersei had a bit more control of her son in the books.

  350. the goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    darquemode,

    Well, I’d agree that he “saved the city” in that he held them at bay with the wildfire and the chain long enough for Tywin to get there, but the point is that if Tywin didn’t show up, they would’ve lost the city, despite all that Tyrion did. We’re still getting the wildfire, he did send LF to try to convince Renly to ally with them (in the book everyone agreed that they should try to get the Tyrells after Renly dies, they just disagree about who should go, and LF ends up volunteering), and I’m sure we’ll see him leading the sortie next week. And, of course, Tyrion ends up getting zero credit anyway, so that’ll prolly stay the same.

  351. Dan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    I couldn’t disagree more on the Talisa monologue. I thought her acting was tremendous there. I really liked the look in both hers and Robb’s eyes as she was telling the story. Maybe it is because I live in Los Angeles and talk to so many vapid girls that I just appreciate this character so much. I appreciate an anti war, smart, sexy, and pro liberty kind of girl. When she said the part about that event making her not want to be the typical noblewoman and that she left her home because she didn’t want to live in a place that accepted slavery I knew she was my dream girl. Not that being anti slavery should be a difficult decision but because she left everything she had known and grown up with in deviance of this evil. I can totally see why Robb would forsake his honor in that moment with her. I’d jump at a chance to meet a girl like that.

    The Arya scene I can sympathize more with. Although I didn’t think we were going to get that scene anyways since no northern men had been captured. I do like that scene in the books and would’ve enjoyed watching it but I don’t really have a problem with what they did. I thought it just furthered the badassery of JH. When you have him slaughtering the guards why not just stroll on out?

  352. MotherOfFlagons
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    “A man can go and kill himself.”

    Best line of the episode.

    When Varys and Tyrion were talking out on the balcony, I really thought Varys would tell Tyrion his backstory for why he hates magic/magic-wielders, and why he’ll fight against Stannis simply for his connection to possible sorcery.

    MORE VARYS.

  353. cib
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    I SUPPOSE wildlings KNOW ABOUT Ned Stark’s death from Youtube ! How? How? How they know him?

  354. Butterbumps
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    ok negative out of the way first..

    Cersei assuming Ros was Tyrion’s ‘love’ made no sense to me, If Cersei believes he loves Ros why would he have sent her to service his nephew a couple weeks back? I dunno, that just was too unbelievable for me to stomach.

    Anyway, apart from that I really enjoyed this episode, is it me or is Vary’s getting ‘camper’? whether he is or not, he’s brilliant, I loved his scene with Tyrion. I disagree with most posters about Talisa and Rob, I really liked the scene and I think they have great chemisty…was really nice to see a ‘romantic’ sex scene instead of them just banging the westeros way.

    I am also very happy they found the dragonglass, looks like Sam will get his moment! The Ayra escape worked well, although I hope we get to see Jaquen again before the end of the series, even tho I don’t want his face to change (it’s a very nice face) it would be a shame to omit that scene, it was one of my favourite moments in the book.

    Very excited for next week.

  355. Kael of the Lake
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    garik16:
    Last week set up the House of the Undying.This week…..it didn’t happen.Why didn’t it happen?It was the big setup last week and then instead it was delayed to what?Episode 10?

    The pacing is terrible.If you did House of Undying this week you’d have people talking about the show going into the season’s blockbuster: Blackwater.Instead…wtf.

    I wouldn’t even go near Dance with Dragon if I were you.

  356. paylor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    There are definitely some bookwalkers in that thread, I think. I’ve been trying to keep an eye on a few, but then I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and think they are lucky. Be that as it may, Stillshimpy is definitely NOT a secret bookwalker. She’s been posting for years on TWOP and has always posted some insightful stuff. I’m sad that I can’t interact with her in the GOT fandom, because I loved all her BSG postings.

    I also agree with you about Cersei, it is human nature for people to be inconsistent. Particularly if they are mentally unbalanced.

  357. Toni_from_Tallahasse
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Oona… *_* ay Oona
    Am I the only one who thinks that Telisa is hotter than Cersei? These women haven’t got the voluptuosity from the books

  358. Toni_from_Tallahasse
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    cib,

    So true!

  359. WrathofHodor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    I understand people getting upset over Cat releasing Jaime before learning of Bran and Rickon’s “fate” at the hands of Theon. But for those who consider it “bad writing” really need to re-watch the previous episode. Brienne clearly makes the point when she said (and I am paraphrasing) “no one would want to die for the Kingslayer”. Jaime was as good as dead if he had stayed in the camp and his death would mean the same for Sansa and Arya. No ifs, ands or buts about it. The point of this scenario in both the series and the books was to put Cat (and Robb) in a lose/lose situation and I think it worked out in the series just as well as it did in the books.

  360. Mean25
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    DB:
    Cogman should write all of the episodes tbh. D&D need to calmly step away from the writing while there’s still hope… And I’m saying that partially because of the straying away from the books and the inconstancy and also partially because the writing was very bland this episode, to say the least.

    agree completely

  361. Dr.Gordon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    Rattleshirt looks awesome.

  362. Shock Me
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    Lisa:
    Couple of things bothered me about this episode…First just a personal preference of wanting to see the Weasel soup scene.Disappointed that did not go down.

    As for Tyrion’s scenes…splendid as usual…just somewhat disappointing that they’re just now getting around to having him plan for the siege.I’ve not yet seen any indication of the chain being built. Will it be part of the battle?Hoping so!They’ve really short-changed and underplayed Tyrion’s active role in planning the defense of Kings Landing.

    Can’t have Weasel soup if you never had Weasel.

  363. Maxwell James
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Well, that was my fear: the change in the motivations of Catelyn due to the non-reveal of Bran+Rickon’s death did not go over well with non-readers. Larry hated it.

    What I found particularly annoying about that scene is that in the previous episode, the writers came up with a very compelling, rational reason for Catelyn’s actions: Jaime was going to be killed anyway. It made her decision look a lot more defensible, frankly.

    And then, when confronted about it, she didn’t use it! WTF?

  364. Lady Stark
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    It hurts me that some of my friends who have never read the books said that this episode was boring. And personally, I don’t think this episode stands out among the rest. I think it’s fairly average.

    What I loved about this episode was the Theon&Yara/Asha interaction. It shows us that Yara is a badass (“Go on then. Warn me.”) but at the same time, she cares for her brother in a somewhat subtle way (“Come home with me” and “Don’t die here alone”).

    I also liked the Tyrion and Varys scenes because it shows us that they’re developing a certain kind of relationship. It does not show us that Tyrion ENTIRELY trusts Varys but there’s a certain something to the two of them. I think this is important so that when Varys appears as one of the witnesses against Tyrion’s trial in ASOS, it would be a somewhat heavy blow upon Tyrion.

    Contrary to popular belief, I don’t think that Cersei was inconsistent. The Cersei POV chapters in A Feast for Crows show us that she is a very complex character, and the inconsistency in this episode was not out of character. We all know that she would do ANYTHING for her children’s safety, regardless of their sanity. She admitted that Joffrey was “quite off”, but that DOES NOT mean she loves him less.

    I was waiting for Jaime to call Brienne “wench” and for Brienne to call Jaime “kingslayer” all the time. -sigh- Even though this is just a small detail, I would love it if they will NOT miss this.

    What I didn’t like about this episode is the lack of Arya badassery. Sure, she faces the mighty Tywin Lannister without flinching or any signs of uncomfortable-ness and even says some cool lines but words are wind. I was waiting for Arya to show the audience how Harrenhal darkened her heart, and how the idea of killing has become just like another chore to do for her. I’m still holding onto hope for a chance to see Arya slit some guards’ throats before the end of the season. I want my non-reader friends to see what Harrenhal did to Arya–how it darkened her heart. Because telling Jaqen to kill himself is not strong enough to prove it, IMO.

    I also didn’t like how they handled Catelyn Stark and Robb Stark. I agree with a lot of people who say that they should’ve let the news of Bran & Rickon’s deaths reach Cat and Robb to add the grief. Book!Catelyn is a strong woman, and insisted on staying with Robb because he needs her more than Bran and Rickon do. Show!Catelyn however, is the opposite. Catelyn would not release Jaime if she knew that her two babes were still living. But then the writers changed the Catelyn Stark that I loved.

  365. paylor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Exactly! I thought her reasoning in the show could be completely justified, but she didn’t even bring up the point that Karstark wanted to kill Jamie and his bannermen were threatening to do so all night.

  366. Jorge
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    WrathofHodor,

    I’m not sure why they changed it though. Since Bran adn Rickon “died” last episode, couldn’t they have just had her release Jaime because of that this episode? It’s not like releasing Jaime early is of primary importance; he hardly did anything this episode.

  367. Rob
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Bryon Blofstein,

    It is known

  368. Mean25
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    I’m a noble princess, I ran away because I couldn’t stand slavery. That is such fairytale and hack writing, stands out like a sore thumb from the realistic tone of the show.

  369. Booey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    I love the conversation with Tyrion and Vary’s about the dragon’s across the Narrow Sea – good subtle set-up for what will hopefully be season 6.

  370. garik16
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    Kael of the Lake,

    I liked ADWD and AFFC thank you very much.

  371. Shock Me
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    cindyash: Hee, I’d enjoy that. Or throw in a bit of Eliz I’s speech pre Armada…

    While I understood the reason Catelyn freed Jaime, even in the book I was screaming at her – ‘are you really that stupid?’‘did your husband teach you nothing?’. But then, Im not a mother who’s 4 children are prisoners (or so she thinks) and she’s at her wits end. Still…

    For me it was a reasonable decision. A dead Jaimie doesn’t get her daughters back and might in fact get them killed. When it looked like he was a goner she threw a Hail Mary to free her girls (who will be more pawns than ever now that Winterfell is taken). I do think they should have told them that Bran and Rickon are dead though because then the girls become MORE valuable hostages and more likely to be kept alive.

  372. Malys Blackfyre
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    So, NOBODY remembers that Jeyne Westerling was (half) foreign in the books, huh???

  373. Fisher
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    First of all let me say that last night’s episode was fantastic!! I am an avid book reading fan of ASOIAF. I dont mind the changes. In fact, I like them, keeps me on my toes. For the most part the casting is absolutely superb!!!!

    That being said, I still can’t get over the Asha/Yara casting. I have given her a chance. She is as terrible now as she was in the first scene she was in. Worst casting mistake of the entire production. I have heard that characters are going to die that did not die in the books. I can only hope she is one of them, and soon. I was so hoping that Theon was going to slit her throat.

  374. DavosFTW!
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    This is great television. Its great story telling. The fact that new viewers continue to like it shows that it is successful and not a travesty or mistake. Sure, maybe a few things could’ve been better in the show but is the source material really perfect? Take a breath and ask yourselves that question.

    Maybe some things are better in the show.

    Although both could do with more Davos.

  375. moofy
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Virtus,

    well i’m not. but i was intoxicated and this show, which has been such a fixation for so long is falling so short of its potential (and ceasing to depict many of the things that in my opinion make the books so great) so it makes me WANNA TYPE IN ALL CAPS ABOUT WHAT DILFS david and dan are, like a wolf howling in the wind. they say they’re remaining true to the spirit of the book but it feels like trying to enjoy a beethoven symphony when someone has rewritten the development section with their own new themes and, oh, that modulation you love in the slow movement, we changed it. we added a techno beat, and took out all of those pretty suspensions. that little fugue like passage? got rid of the counterpoint. now it’s just one voice. but the symphony, it’s still there. you’ll love it.

  376. Tenesmus
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    moofy,

    OK. Thanks for your insight. Good Bye.

  377. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Rukie44: *The Night’s WatchIt would be the coolest thing ever if The Night’s Watch story concludes with the sounding of the horn three times, like in the preview, signaling the white walkers’ attack. In fact, they should end the whole season with that.

    Finally! I was wondering when someone would mention that. As soon as Grenn’s shovel hit metal, I shouted “Yes!” White Walker attack on Fist of the First Men to end the season, for sure.

  378. Skipjack
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Robb and Talisa and that scene on retrospect made me think of something. There are lots of times when as a book-reader I’m watching the show and judging what comes by what I expect. But here’s something I hadn’t thought of on first viewing. I know this is the spoiler thread but here’s the tags anyway:

    Since Talisa clearly knew what she was doing, in comparison to Robb to be sure, and was rather the aggressor in the situation, taking both their clothes off and clambering on top of Robb, it seems very obvious to me that she wasn’t a virgin. Combine that with her origin story and we get a girl who really doesn’t seem to be a Westerosi noble and has avowedly turned her back on being a Volantine noble. So, while Robb may have had sex with her, and has feelings for her, he also just as clearly isn’t obligated to marry her out of honor. That has changed now, he isn’t obligated at all, and it wouldn’t be anachronistic for him to think that was just for the two of him, or maybe she could be his mistress as he does his duty. If he does marry her, I think the show will make it out of love, and Robb freely choosing to turn his back on his betrothal.

    Anyone else think they are going to have to make some changes along those lines? And how do you feel about that?

  379. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    DavosFTW!,

    Good point. I have noticed that most non-readers have enjoyed this season more than those that have read them. Although I believe even they will think the last episode was slow and uneventful. The season is riding on the final two episodes to pay off in a big way.

  380. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    D&D have taken a story in A Song of Ice and Fire which is as masterfully crafted as game a chess played between two grandmasters and have coverted it to a bout of UNO played with your drunken cousins over Thanksgiving. While entertaining, the thrill of the experience is not one cherish.

    I will continue to watch and support the show; however, the brillance of this series is illustrated from the pages of the novels within my minds-eye… and not from a lense filered through D&D.

  381. paylor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Malys Blackfyre,

    Yeah, but it doesn’t look like they are going that direction here. Or if they are, that means that Talisa/Jeyne is a complete and utter liar. I’d rather she be just a different person than that. She knew details about Volantis that I don’t think someone who hadn’t been there could know.

  382. persephone88
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    I hate to say this because I have SO enjoyed the last few episodes of the show, but I did not like last night’s much at all, for many many reasons.

    I will start with the good. It was wonderful seeing Jaime and Brienne begin their journey. I am so looking forward to their scenes together. Love Nikolaj , he steals every scene he’s in, and I am officially converted to a major Gwen Christie fan. I had my doubts at her casting, but she has sold me completely. Love how they mentioned Tarth, was waiting for Jaime to mention sapphires…hopefully late if we ever get the BCs next season (fingers crossed!).

    And for the first time, I really enjoyed Ros’s brief appearance. She played that scene very well – and I was very touched how she would take the fall for Tyrion, knowing she is NOT his true love, simply saying “Don’t forget about me.” Well done, Esme.

    And while I’m discussing controversial castings, let me say that I am also enjoying Ian White’s take on Gregor. I like the beard, he’s got the menacing voice, and I think he’s going to work out wonderfully. Look forward to seeing more of him.

    I also liked Robb’s scene confronting Cat, and his scene with Oona Chaplin….right up until the end. Like WIC, I was saying, “No, no, don’t sleep with her YET…wait Robb, wait!” I think it works so much better had he found out about Bran and Rickon. THAT is a more palatable reason, succumbing to grief and losing your honor. While I empathized with him saying “I don’t want to marry the Frey girl”, going right into doing the deed with Oona didn’t reflect quite as well on him. I wish they’d waited until he got the news about his brothers.

    Was very disappointed in the lack of Weasel soup. I thought they were going to have Hot Pie in on it (and I liked seeing him and Gendry again, as well as the all too brief reappearance of Biter and Rorge), but I am feeling like A) there is so much book here and so little HBO time to cover it that many wonderful cinematic characters in the novels are getting very short shift due to time constraints, and B) the deviations from the books are starting to pile up. No Roose at Harrenhall, no Brave Companions, etc. I am wondering if new viewers are not saying “Who the hell is this Brotherhood that Tywin keeps mentioning?” because almost NOTHING has been said or shown about them. It does lose a lot from the novels, of necessity, I know, but it’s a shame.

    Even the ending was kind of a let down. Theon had already spilled the beans to Dagmer that the boys were the miller’s sons, so you already knew Bran and Rickon were fine. Then showing Luwin seeing Osha and meeting them in the crypts. I really thought that the original scene where they find Luwin dying and he says “I knew it was not Bran, the legs were wrong” and they have that sad final exchange before Osha gives him the gift of mercy.”

    The episode seemed like a lot of build up with no pay off. I am used to them giving us a real whiz-bang ending, and I just felt like there was not much going on. The Dany story is really dragging.

    My big worries are that all the $ was spend on effects for Blackwater, and that in the last episode we are going to get the HotU with no prophecies and just dragons killing the warlocks. Will Jaqen actually change his face or just give her a coin to teach her to become an assassin? There has been nothing with Sansa and Dontos. Will Sansa sing a song fro the Hound before he flees? Will Cersei send Ser Meryn after Tyrion? Will Littlefinger bring in the Tyrells as Renly’s ghost to save the day? Will we see the return of Ser Barristan as Arstan as Dany escapes?

    So much still to come, and only two episodes….

  383. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    garik16: Kael of the Lake, I liked ADWD and AFFC thank you very much.

    I have found that these novels were more enjoyable the second/thrid time through. I think their brilliance will be illuminated once the series is complete.

  384. Chris
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Kudos again to Peter Dinklage.
    The scene where Cersei unveils the battered Alayaya… I mean Ros… should have been a real suspenseful one for the newbies. (HEY NEWBIES! ANYBODY WORRIED FOR A MINUTE THERE??)
    Tyrion tries to play it so cool and then when Ros is brought in and Tyrion realizes who it is, there’s a split second of relief in his face before he snaps back into playing the role, even to making his “ashes” threat.
    That split second made the scene. Excellent.

  385. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Liked it as a tv show.

    not really feeling the changed jeyne storyline. How did she escape her parents? leave her brother behind? didnt her parents try to get her back?

    Oona is doing great with the story that is given to her.

    Also as soon as i saw her clothes I knew that she would get naked.

    Danys story is still a little bit boring and i agree that last episodes Cersei & this weeks cersei are allmost different people…

    still enjoy it as a tv show….

  386. Chris
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    Oh, and AGAIN we see Podrick and have him pointed out!
    I suspect he really will be coming to the rescue during the Battle of the Blackwater.
    We’re already well acquainted with Ser Meryn as a nasty asshole. Pod could indeed give us a big cheering moment next week.

  387. Eric
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    garik16,

    That’s ok, nobody is perfect.

  388. Paul
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    I don’t bitch much about this show, but a few things were really butchered in this episode that I’m having trouble reconciling:

    - Arya’s escape from Harrenhal. What a mess. Did they screw up anything in this TV series as bad as they screwed this up?

    - No chain!?

    - Halfhand has a haircut? Rangers have barbers?

  389. MattL86
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Wow, this is some shitty storytelling. D&D have somehow managed to bog this season down with tired exposition and dialogue ad nauseum, right when we should be ramping up the excitement. Three areas have really stood out to me:

    1. Robb’s romance. What the hell? In the books, Robb storm’s a girl’s castle, gets injured, and when she nurses her enemy back to health, they fall in love. In the show, they meet over an amputation and then talk endlessly until they tear each other’s clothes off. Which sounds more entertaining to watch? One of the perks of TV was supposed to be seeing Robb’s story that mostly took place off screen in the books. They have made it so dull it’s just sad.

    2. Dany. Ok, I know she has jack to do this season. But then only feature her in 5 episodes. These episodes where she gets 2-3 minutes are so pointless. That time could go to beefing up other stories, and then we could have more meaty scenes for Dany when we do see her. Pretty much all we get is a 2 minute rant about “RaRa Fire, RaRa blood, Mother of Dragons, RaRa.” She was a fan favorite character last season, and now she just sounds like an emotional phsycho.

    3. Theon. What was the point of that baby crying story? It was just so random and out of the blue, completely unlike anything Yara (asha) would say, and ANOTHER exposition that just wasted time. We get it HBO, you think you are clever with your high quality drama. But just sticking an emotional story into a scene does not make it remotely poignant. Yasha could have showed fondness for Theon just as well with a sentence or two.

  390. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    MMonroe,

    You have such a beautiful mind. I wish I could have sex with your brain.

  391. SeVv
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    just reading these comments and I know why I like the non readers so much more.
    btw Kevan is back bitches!!!

  392. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Meg: Cat looks like an idiot in this episode, and Robb chastened her like a child when *he* was the one who acted like one by marrying Jeyne. I thought it was very important that they needed to confess their mistakes to each other as equals, grief-stricken with stupidity.

    Yes, exactly. Especially since their grief over Bran and Rickon explains stupid behavior on both their parts.

    I disliked both Catelyn and Dany in the books, but as much as I love the show, the way they have taken agency and wisdom away from both of them really annoys me. I keep waiting for Catelyn to channel my mother with “I’m telling you now this is a mistake, but you have to find out for yourself” and for Dany to march out to the HOTU without waiting to see if Jorah follows.

  393. Pause
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    Agree on most points. Episode was far too slow-paced and the Romance with Robb is so far the worst part of this TV-Show. I almost had to puke when I saw where the story she’s telling about her becoming a doctor was going, and then the sex like you said, very bad.

    But I think Cersei is doing fine and even if Joffrey is not that bad in the books its basicly the same, like she also told it Sansa the episode before: She fears and mistrust everyone and her children is everything she’s got left.

  394. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Syrio: Another thing I don’t like is that they never showed Jaime’s oath to Catelyn prior to his release that he would return Sansa and Arya and would not take up sword against the Starks or Tullys. That oath is kinda important.

    Great catch. Let’s hope for a Brienne lecture: “You swore an oath to Lady Catelyn to return her daughters and not take up arms against the North.”

  395. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    My brain has seen more mileage than Rose… I would not suggest such feat without protection; although, it is flattered by such an offer.

  396. Pause
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    MMonroe,

    I keep saying this for years now, everyone will see how badly they are needed for the story.

  397. franny_bee
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Robb/Talisa isn’t working for me. I wanted to ffwd them.

    Sorry too about the anti-climactic ‘escape’ from Harrenhall. So many missed opportunities. Weasel soup was Arya’s triumph mom they skiped it. JH said killing Tywin was no longer possible, but then in the same breath he tells Arya to name ANY name and he would make it happen. Uh. TYWIN?!

    About Ros: she was one of the whores sent to Joffrey that Cersei mentioned he had abused. So Cersei believes hat Tyrion is so in
    love with the woman that he sent her to service his nephew? Doesn’t make sense.

    Loved Tyrion. Interesting how Bronn is getting an attitude…

  398. Lina
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    REALLY GOOD
    - Jaime/Brienne (perfect)
    - Tyrion/Varys/Bronn (hilarious and on-point)
    - Dinklage’s performance in the scene with Shae (made me sad)
    - Arya/Tywin (they’re so alike, with slightly different motivations)
    - Ian Glenn’s performance in an otherwise bland Dany scene
    - Sam’s undying faith in Jon (and the obsidian looked really cool)
    - Asha actually caring about Theon
    - Stannis’ Storm’s End story (finally we’re getting the sense he feels snubbed); and his comments about cats/dogs

    The Jon Snow stuff wasn’t particularly exciting but it was necessary. Rattleshirt is a lot bigger than I imagined. And I’m just going to personally adopt the hypothesis that Qhorin let himself get captured because he knew about Jon. I just can’t see the Halfhand getting taken alive.

    Then there were a few parts I simultaneously liked and disliked. The acting/production continues to be top-notch, and the writing is usually always good. But in these scenes I mentioned below I just wonder about some of the changes.

    ARYA & JAQEN: The bit where she gets one over on him was brilliantly acted by both. I didn’t really care so much that the Weasel soup incident wasn’t shown, as long as they showed Arya’s cunning. But after thinking about it a bit, I kind of wish Arya had still had her moment where she kills the guard to escape. I always thought of that as the moment when Arya really becomes a true loose cannon (stableboy was really pure self-defense). However, I won’t complain yet, because she may still have to kill someone once they get through the gates. I just hope they don’t tone Arya down too much with regards to the violence she commits, because I think all of that comes to define her character (and gives Jaqen a reason to give her the coin).

    CERSEI: I agree with what Winter wrote about the contradictory Cersei moments this season. I think they’re trying to show that she’s pretty stressed out and since Jaime is gone, she really has no confidante, she she thus turned to Tyrion in a moment of humanity/weakness (depending on how you see Cersei). While I think this treatment humanizes Cersei, I think it’s also great setup for how unhinged she becomes later on. Also, did anyone else think she seemed drunk this week? Not surprised at all that Ros took Alayaya’s role…I think a lot of us speculated that early back in S1.

    ROBB & TALISA: You can look at this scene in two ways. On one hand, it reminds us that Robb is just a teenage boy. On the other, it can show a lack of honor/duty on Robb’s part, which we know is not true. I personally agree with Winter and think there should have been a bit more buildup in the physical aspect of this relationship. Also, I’m starting to wonder who Talisa actually is. While I still think she’s Jeyne, her story from the Rhoyne seemed too detailed and emotional to be made up. The other thing that worries me is that if she is lying, I don’t know how Robb will reconcile that with his feeling for her. I can’t really see Robb being like, “Oh hey you lied to me, but it’s all good!” I wonder if he won’t know her true identity until after the marriage. Lastly, on a totally superficial note: Oona is remarkably beautiful, and Richard is, as his nickname so accurately says, exceedingly lovely!

  399. Dan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    It seems like this board is coming down with a case of westeros.org fanboy syndrome. Is the show enjoyable? Yes. Do the departures from the book keep me entertained? Yes. Am I still amazed that this show even exists at all? Yes.

  400. David the Grey
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    I liked the episode, but it was missing something that kept it from 5 stars for me. Maybe moments of bad-ass action? I’ve been spoiled, because when this show does bad-ass, it is beyond awesome.

    My least favorite part of a scene occurred in Robb & Talisa’s scene. I found it odd that she would be allowed to just come in and interrupt his discussion with Roose Bolton like that. You’d think Robb’s guards would make her wait, or announce her, or something. Does everyone in Robb’s camp know she is highborn? And I am confused as heck between the Talisa and Jeyne thing. In earlier episodes she admitted to having lied to Robb, that she was a terrible liar. Was that a lie about being highborn? Or was it a lie about being Talisa (instead of Jeyne)?

    BUT – I enjoyed the extended scene with Robb & Talisa because I like their chemistry, and it is simply amazing to listen to Robb talk. Love his accent and his bearing. I don’t mind a little love scene here and there. Life is not all darkness, despair, and wish lists!

    My favorite scene was Maester Luwin catching sight of Osha and the following discussion in the crypts, where the little lords are hiding out. I LOVE Osha. I liked how that scene was filmed, with her lighting the candle and just a part of her face being seen in the candlelight. As with Robb, I could probably listen to her talk for hours as well. And poor Bran – my heart broke again (it never truly mends with this show) at seeing the sad look on his face just over the wall from Osha & Luwin.

    And to someone’s comment that Luwin might be the one to take Rickon (instead of Osha, since there are no Reeds), I’d be very happy with that. Luwin’s actor has totally made me attached to his character and I would prefer to have him continue on in the show instead of the alternative from the books. He may be a Maester, but I feel that he is nearly a Stark himself, and a wonderful grandfather-figure to the Stark children. (His pain-filled cry at seeing the burnt corpses displayed his love for them.)

    And I liked Dany’s scene with Mormont. Again another slow scene, but the chemistry between the two was enjoyable. The dragons are her children, I believe it.

    I have nothing else to add about Brienne and Jaime – I’m with everyone else, it is going to be SO awesome!

  401. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    franny_bee:
    Sorry too about the anti-climactic ‘escape’ from Harrenhall. So many missed opportunities. Weasel soup was Arya’s triumph mom they skiped it. JH said killing Tywin was no longer possible, but then in the same breath he tells Arya to name ANY name and he would make it happen. Uh. TYWIN?!

    About Ros: she was one of the whores sent to Joffrey that Cersei mentioned he had abused. So Cersei believes hat Tyrion is so in
    love with the woman that he sent her to service his nephew? Doesn’t make sense.

    I’ve seen a few people confused on this point. Arya wanted him to kill Tywin now, which he said was not possible. She would either have to wait or name another name. Jaqen was pushing for her to name another name instead, so it came off as him refusing to kill Tywin and demanding another name, but I don’t think that was the case. It was a bit clumsily worded, so I can see how people are getting confused.

    As to your second point, that is a nice catch. Another example where making small changes can cause inconsistencies later on, if the writers are not careful.

  402. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Pause,

    In order truly appreciate the endgame, one must respect the subtlety of the middle-game. While “Feast” and “Dance” were a little dry the first time through, reading them as part of a set makes things more coherent. I highly recommend reading “Storm” then “Feast”, then “Dance” back-to-back. You will be amazed as to how many links and parallels exist between the three. There are multiple references in “Storm” which come to fruition.

    In Martin I trust…

  403. AlexBaratheon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    I don’t understand how some people aren’t enjoying this journey! Eso being a fan of the books.

    Im loving every second!! I get so giddy seeing whats from the book translated to television.

    Guess we all cant detach ourselves from the source and enjoy the series as a Television show but its helped me.

    Seems every week the same people say “this was the worst episode of the seasons”

    Well good ser, why the hell are you still watching it?!?! ;)

    AB

  404. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins: As for San/San, I never quite “got” that one when I was reading the books.
    I remember being shocked to find out there was a whole San/San subculture on the Westeros message boards, solely devoted to the implied relationship I never really picked up on. Granted, I picked up on it to a certain extent, mostly on Sandor’s part, but all implication on Sansa’s part went way over my head (disclaimer: I don’t understand women).
    That’s why I never really cared so much about their depiction on the show… because I never really cared about them in the books (no offense to those who do).

    THIS

  405. scott glennon
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    I thought Oona looked quite fetching tonight..:-)

  406. Kalasin
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Ok here are the little things that bugged me:

    Osha sneaking out to get food in broad freaking daylight in a busy courtyard.

    Qhorin telling Jon his plan in a half whisper right in front of the (apparently deaf) Wildling group. Also, it was way too fast and abrupt. This had a chance to be a great conversation, maybe when they’ve made camp one night and are talking quietly while the Wildlings are asleep or talking with each other. Instead they made it this rushed throwaway. I was extra frustrated when they gave Talisa the brother-drowing story, which lasted eons. I didn’t mind the scene in and of itself, but screentime is a premium in this story and I thought spending so much on this was unjustified. What’s the point? Non-book readers are getting so frustrated with Jon’s storyline, and find it pointless, and they should spend more time making it compelling and showing why it matters.

    Jon getting the brothers killed. I just feel like they’re making him much more of a —-up in the show than he was in the books, and it’s getting annoying.

    Random Dany scene. The buildup to the house of the undying is getting out of control. Just go already!

    I still don’t get Tyrion’s obession with Shae.

    I would really really REALLY like there to be a chain.

    Other than that (unless I’m forgetting something) I liked it. I didn’t think Cersei was out of character. She may not think Joffrey is a good king but that doesn’t mean she wants him dead. She’s been pretty consistent throughout the show with her steadfast devotion to her children, so I thought it worked. Loved Tyrion and Theon. I also liked Arya – the changes from the book really didn’t bother me. Yeah, it would have been good if she’d killed a guard, and it felt a bit like a cop-out to cut that, but otherwise I was fine with it. As long as she still gets that coin!

  407. MattL86
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    AlexBaratheon:
    I don’t understand how some people aren’t enjoying this journey! Eso being a fan of the books.

    Im loving every second!! I get so giddy seeing whats from the book translated to television.

    Guess we all cant detach ourselves from the source and enjoy the series as a Television show but its helped me.

    Seems every week the same people say “this was the worst episode of the seasons”

    Well good ser, why the hell are you still watching it?!?! ;)

    AB

    Enjoying something isn’t the same as blind devotion. Outside of Breaking Bad, there’s never really been a TV show I didn’t have complaints about. I love Spartacus, Sons of Anarchy, The Walking Dead, and a lot of other shows, but I always have issues or complaints with each. Why should GoT be any different?

    This was honestly a boring episode. Not boring tv, it is still decent tv, but boring for GoT. Really the middle of this season has been average, which is why people are complaining. It doesn’t mean we should stop watching, it just means we are hoping for better in these last two episodes.

    I for one don’t care about changes, I care about great TV. When the show just becomes something for book fans and stops being something for tv fans (like this last episode) I am dissapointed. It doesn’t mean I want to quit.

  408. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    I have found the Hound’s and Arya’s dynamic is more intriguing than anything San/San.

    Handmaiden of Dany: THIS

  409. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Great post!

    AlexBaratheon:
    I don’t understand how some people aren’t enjoying this journey! Eso being a fan of the books.

    Im loving every second!! I get so giddy seeing whats from the book translated to television.

    Guess we all cant detach ourselves from the source and enjoy the series as a Television show but its helped me.

    Seems every week the same people say “this was the worst episode of the seasons”

    Well good ser, why the hell are you still watching it?!?! ;)

    AB

  410. The Sweetling
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Scholesy,

    I agree, Miss Chaplin is gorgeous!!

  411. Tim
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    That’s it, I’m done. They made so many changes this season that it should no longer call itself “Game of Thrones.” I am so disappointed that I will no longer watch this show or continue to support this abysmal attempt at storytelling anymore. Anyone defending this mockery of GRRM’s books is a fool and are enabling Dan and Dave in their sacrilege. I pray to God that this show does not get any Emmy/Golden Globe recognition, because the last thing we need is a vindication of mediocre-at-best “entertainment.”

  412. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Regarding Ser Dontos, I wonder if their just holding this whole storyline out for Season Three. It might be a little too ambitious for the viewing (non book reading) public to hold on to over the off season and will muddy up the waters.

    They can pick it up fresh next season. OR they use it as a kind of cliff-hanger at the end of the season that this Knight will save her from the Lannisters and help her escape… (Imagine she finds the note near the end of the episode telling her to meet him at the Godswood if she wants to escape… Who sent it? Is it a trap? Is it real?)

  413. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Hey Winter, how come I can’t edit my post? I thought maybe I should add spoiler tags to my above-post, but there was never any Edit button?

  414. cranscape
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Tim,

    Does this mean you’ll stop posting? That should be a requirement for those going off the deep end.

  415. Jean-Baptiste Raucy
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Good episode, some very nice scenes all around, with special mentions to Varys/Tyrion and Davos/Stannis. I was doubtful of Stephen Dillane after the first episode, but his performance has completely won me over.

    I gotta say, I still don’t understand exactly why they replaced Jeyne with Talisa. This episode has made her much more interesting, but why couldn’t they have fleshed out Jeyne Westerling to make her more interesting ? Plus I don’t really like the fact that she is allowed to speak to him as if to an equal, especially in the presence of Robb’s men and lords ; it seems very careless on Robb’s part and would undermine his authority. Tbh, given that she’s a foreigner, Robb’s decision to marry her seems even more stupid, politically speaking.

    I suppose that’s not the last we’ll see of Jaqen, given that he still has something to show and something to give to Arya.

    Really looking forward to the last two episodes of the season ; Blackwater promises to deliver, and it better, what with it being the first big battle on the show. I’m also really curious about how they will do the House of the Undying, but I guess they’ll keep that for episode 10.

  416. Blourd
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    What seems baffling upon reflection is that there doesn’t seem to be ANY in-show-only justification for Arya to give Jaqen his own name (beyond just being pissy about him not being able to instantly kill Tywin). It doesn’t seem like she hits on the idea of using this to blackmail him into helping her escape until she’s already halfway through the conversation.

  417. Shady_Grady
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    Perfectly stated. Reducing Catelyn Stark’s role doesn’t really gain the story very much so I don’t see why they did it.

  418. Jaime Lannister
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Ser Dontos reappearing in episode ten might be the perfect way to bring a little “hope” to Sansa’s bleak situation.

  419. Morgan King
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    What is it about fandom that always self-immolates into a bitchy whine-fest until the thing they ostensibly love is soured for them? The books are great, the show is great, and this existing for our pleasure at all is a miraculous thing.

  420. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    I was in the same boat… I wanted to change something as well. Of course, I am posting from a phone which may have something to do with it… The plight of my life…. (sigh) lol
    Ed,

  421. LordStarkington
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming:
    As to your second point, that is a nice catch. Another example where making small changes can cause inconsistencies later on, if the writers are not careful.

    I don’t know why people think Ros being sent to Joffrey would matter to Cersei w/regards to her thinking Tyrion is in love with her. Cersei doesn’t respect Tyrion, really, doesn’t understand him and especially looks down on him because of his whores. This is more clear in the books because there’s more room ot flesh it out, but it’s hardly inconsistent for Cersei to think Tyrion is so depraved or “bad” (for lack of a better term) that he’d send his whore out to service Joffrey.

  422. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    I really thought the interaction between Theon and Yara was played well. The look Theon gave her when she told him not to die so far from the sea was perfect. Alfie Allen has really stolen the show this season, IMO. Get that man an award, already.

  423. dizzy_34
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    The only change they’ve botched in my opinion is Catelyn not finding out about the boys before releasing Jaime. That was when she was truly at the end of her rope and I could buy her decision at that point. Just didn’t work for me in the show. Everything else was o.k. except I’m a little dissapointed that Ghost didn’t find the dragon glass.

  424. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor: This season seems like there are several scenes missing to connect the dots. It seems like D and D really struggled with this adaptation. Maybe they were too ambitious?

    This. I don´t know if whole scenes were necessary but at least a closer follow-up (?) between episodes would be nice.

    Joshua Taylor: If anything, this season displays the limitations of television adaptation all too well. Not enough time, not enough money, not enough cohesion with the writers, a rushed post production and too strong a focus on spectacle and CGI

    and this. “Not enough cohesion with the writers”. Thanks. Sadly, this is the only mistake not dependent on money or time.

  425. Dantilles
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    People. I know you love the books. I LOVE the books. I really believe DnD are doing a fantastic job with the amount of material theyhave to try and please us with. No Weasel soup? Oh well. I watched Brienne get in a boat with Jaime Lannister. and the actors portraying them are cast as well as I could have ever hoped. (this goes for 98% of the cast) When I started reading the books 7 years ago this show was a dream. Now it’s reality. and , holy shit, it’s really good. just sit back and enjoy it and hope it stays this good and we (and HBO) see it till the end.

  426. Tim
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Dantilles,

    Quit enabling Dan and Dave from destroying the source material. How can you all yourself a real fan? It’s this kind of passive submission that allows such mediocrity to pervade television.

  427. gentle watcher
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    mummer, Did anyone else notice Talisa’s memory of the pool with naked children playing and swimming without a care sounded a lot like where the Prince of Dorne would sit to ease his pain in the summer?Is it possible the storyline will change to make her one of the sand snakes?

  428. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    gentle watcher: Talisa’s memory of the pool

    she said it was a river, not a pool. But nice idea.

  429. Just Some Dude
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    I agree whole-heartedly that something is missing in the continuity, especially evident with Cersei.

    Earlier, say with Arya and Yoren, the writer made up a scene between them and it fit everything together just as it needed to be—morals, character, motivation. It was chilling. In this episode, and the one before, we’re missing the “why”: why are characters doing the things they’re doing? Sometimes it’s easy to take it for granted, or get the script/film in the wrong hands and it gets edited out.

    I of course can’t guess on what happened here, but last episode’s thing with Jaime? Yes, he is merciless killer (I guess?) who wants to get back to Cersei at all costs (I guess?), but his entire character development—and the reason everyone loves him and feels for him—is because he is internally conflicted about the bad things he does. That was written out. Why? Because men need to watch men be badass on TV? No; feelings are what makes a good story. Including the wibbly-wobbly based-on-a-long-timey-wimey-ago ones.

    To sell the show, one must write to its fans, and that means keeping what spoke to them. (In this case it’s stuff that was really masterfully written. So why is HBO, when touting itself a creator of things that are actually artful compared to other productions (I used this phrase with a grain of salt) taking out the things that were literary greatness and putting in cheap brawn and sex? Yes it’s visually beautiful, but don’t get ahead of yourselves and demand praise for literary greatness. Don’t.)

    Yes, GRRM uses tropes everywhere and twists them perfectly to be genius. Rob and Talisa? Getting together and throwing their clothes down? I guess that fits in that category of twisting tropes. I kinda have to say I like the fact that they just go down on the floor. That’s character of Northmen. I guess.
    ___________

    The changes with Jaqen/Arya continue to make me sad, as a fan and a writer. Sure, what they’ve got works, but each scene with Jaqen in the book was incredibly cinematic already; it was begging to be put on-screen. And, it pandered to female audience members in a way that’s a shame to be left out (and even cries foul of inequity as many mention). Jaqen’s possible nudity is opportunities untaken, for better or worse.

    But, there are two important aspects missing from the Arya/Jaqen work, especially this episode: Arya’s storyline is about feeling powerless, whether in reality or in one’s mind from conditioning. Don’t get me wrong, I love the changes in the show where Arya is seemingly emotionally untouchable. (Go Arya Go!) It’s great watching, and uplifting too. It’s a decent foil for Sansa–perhaps even better that in the book, since she gets to be “a strong female role model” character. Yet, her connection with Jaqen comes from this issue. So, his character becomes less for it. Why are you here? To be a cool killer? No: to teach, mysteriously.

    I suspect they’ll incorporate the Weasel Soup bits somehow in the last episode, breaking it up between this episode and there. But I’m not sure how they would. (And they can’t kill of Tywin, so…is this a way to get her to a certain someone’s clutches? Or will she just end up back at the castle? Who knows.)
    __________

    The other thing that’s missing from A/J in the show that I am sad about is the lack of theme that “the gods are with us.” That’s part of what made his character amazing: Is Jaqen a deliverance from the gods watching over Arya? Or is coincidence only what we hope it to be?

    But the scene at the Weirwood tree is also essential because of it incredible literary value: Jaqen appears–having followed her, because he’s impatient. Is he good or bad? It’s very frightening, creepy; his power is shown, and this time as a threat. He also tries to influence the “wish.” His impatience and that faux pau is “rewarded” in a literary morality sense with Arya turning it around on him, via “I choose you.” In the book, this comes off as a play on fairy tales, which is absolutely gorgeous. (Go Arya Go! More, more!)

    Yet, in trying to influence the wish, Jaqen is also trying to teach Arya. This is important for both character development and literary value to readers/watchers (ie, teaching the readers something, as is in-line with the fairy-tale aspect and the history of what “good literature” tries to do). But, Arya flips it around and tries to teach him: “You’re no friend of mine.” It reads like a god and a human bickering–A god who usually is malevolent as he wanders the Earth, but has attached to a human who at first was just a pet but has grown on him, causing him to behave more benevolently than normal, for reasons he can’t quite understand. (Though Jaqen clearly understands, which makes it all the more tragic.) The human grows into an equal of sorts only to be wrenched away from him through the inevitably different destinies of gods and men. That is, IMO, why this storyline is so arresting to everyone. To cut it out smacks of a lack of knowledge of literary history, whether it is true or not. The show seems to focus on the “cool indifference” of Jaqen’s character and the power play of Arya’s relationship with him. It’s not giving us all the colors of the rainbow, which, say, in a 15 minute scene in a grand finale, could have been done.

    Yes, they have the majority of the last scene with Jaqen in the show, and many many good lines (and so well acted!)—Jaqen’s fear, his anxiety, his anger, his sadness. (Tom got across merely with his face the threat a knife had to do in the book!) But the finer points of character detail and literary artistry are just gone. (I really wanted to see him call her “evil girl,” but no…or not yet, anyway.) That artistic value is what people have been waiting all these weeks and months to see–what are you doing taking them out? The weasel soup scene could have been 100% adapted to screen no problems at all, and it would have been awesome. It would have been worthy of an award. I personally think they’re utterly crazy for taking it out. But that’s not said in a mean or angry way, just in one that’s rather confused, and very disappointed.
    __________

    All in all, I totally agree with the host post. A thought that comes to mind is that the show would benefit from following Masterpiece’s lead and be 1.5 hours per ep. The scenes where more time is taken, consistently feel more developed, which speaks to the fact that they are well written and using time well, they are just making sacrifices and hoping it works. The scenes wouldn’t need to be much longer, just say 2 or 3 minutes each. Given roughly ten scenes an ep, that’d equal about 20/30+ min of screen time. I suppose that’d make production costs explode (though not necessarily, if that much footage is filmed currently and being cut down), but it’s worth it.

    They’re only gonna make this show once. Make it count. Quit demanding perfect scores for work that does at the end of the day leave room for improvement, and do the production like your life depends on it. Because without the creators, the story HAS no life, no flame. Do it for the art, do it for us. We want to live your world; don’t take the finer points away from us.

  430. Flouride
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    I guess they weren’t done butchering Arya’s storyline so they even had to scrap Weasel Soup and Arya meeting with Bolton and the other northern lords. All this so they could have Robb fall in love with some random girl he met on a battlefield. I definately enjoeyd the book version a lot more, where Robb marries her out of honor and grief, not because he suddenly fell in love with her over some made up story about her brother almost drowning. (Though looking at Oona makes me fall in love with her…)

    And I think they could have cut Jon’s story in half this season and spend it somewhere else (*cough* Arya *cough*). But we had to had more Ygritte, as this is the “season of love”.

    *sigh*

  431. Isabelle
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and the scene that stuck with me the most was the scene between Yara and Theon, where Yara’s toughbitch! mask slipped just a little. It was the first scene I replayed (and the second and the third!). Say what you’d like about the lack of “action” this week, but D&D did a fantastic job humanising some formerly one-note characters.

    “[You were] screaming like a dying pig.” These ironborn invoke such warm, fuzzy imagery.

    The music during the Robb/Tulisa scene was lovely–that was what we were meant to be paying attention to, yes? : D

  432. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    One more thing: The Ros twist really threw me off. I was actually expecting Cersei to capture Shae due to the distinct lack of Alayaya in the show (I surmised it could be a misguided attempt by HBO to soften both Tyrion and Tywin, so as not to bloody their hands with all that messy business). Glad I was wrong about that. Clever twist.

  433. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    I was hoping the exact same thing as soon as I saw Sam and company featured in the “catching up” clips at the beginning of the episode.

    That would be epic!

  434. Laura T.
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    A lot of folks were bitching about the shadow baby looking like the smoke monster from Lost & I actually laughed out loud last night when Grenn & the boys discovered the Hatch….er, I mean the obsidian daggers. How many folks from Lost are working on this show anyway?

  435. Jim Cross
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Another great episode….. just some thoughts:

    Arya didn’t get her second kill during the escape, unfortunate because I keep track of Arya’s kills and now the series will be different than the book, it’ll be hard for me to keep two numbers together

    I still think that Talisa is Jeyne, she’s been all sketchy about going with Rob to accept the surrender. Why is she so obviously uncomfortable about it if it’s not her castle and family. Wasn’t Jeyne’s family from Volantis only a few generations back on her mother’s side….. I seem to remember the sigil being spice pots or something like that

  436. death to lannisters
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor: winterfell,

    This sounds really shallow…but was that a body double? I don’t think so…

    lol, i know what you mean. shallow or not, no denying she has a great ass! and it was texturally a very real love making scene, or at least the undressing part. the rest was kinda quick! but who knows, maybe it was Robb’s first :)

  437. Ice&Fire
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Great great episode, I didn’t mind at all they didn’t show

    Weasel soup, sure it would have been cool and all, but they worked around it pretty well, besides there have been no leading up to it at all. I’m not worried about Arya not getting her kill, Polliver is still out there and could easily take The Tickler’s place as the one she kills later on. Who cares about the guard she kills when escaping, this way was cool as well, and it gives Jaqen some more mystery

  438. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Chris:
    Oh, and AGAIN we see Podrick and have him pointed out!
    I suspect he really will be coming to the rescue during the Battle of the Blackwater.
    We’re already well acquainted with Ser Meryn as a nasty asshole.Pod could indeed give us a big cheering moment next week.

    The interesting thing with that is, in the books, we are NEVER told who was behind that attack. In the book, Tyrion strongly suspects it was Cersei, sure, but we are NEVER, EVER told if that suspicion was true or not.

    Maybe book Tyrion got it wrong, too.

    If the scene plays out next week more or less the same way it does in the book – and Meryn Trant tries to kill Tyrion — are we really going to believe it was Cersei’s doing? I think not. Given the arc of the series to date, I would believe that such an awkward attempt on Tyrion’s life comes from the same source as the awkward attempt on Bran’s life.

    Which certainly puts a new spin on things…

  439. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Man – with all due respect Somedude… Some of you think WAY too hard.

    I don’t get why so many can’t just enjoy the books, and enjoy the show. Period.

    You either have way too much time on your hands, or are way too nitpicky (maybe both).

    (Shrug) To each his own, I guess.

    Just Some Dude:
    I agree whole-heartedly that something is missing in the continuity, especially evident with Cersei.

    Earlier, say with Arya and Yoren, the writer made up a scene between them and it fit everything together just as it needed to be—morals, character, motivation. It was chilling. In this episode, and the one before, we’re missing the “why”: why are characters doing the things they’re doing? Sometimes it’s easy to take it for granted, or get the script/film in the wrong hands and it gets edited out.

    I of course can’t guess on what happened here, but last episode’s thing with Jaime? Yes, he is merciless killer (I guess?) who wants to get back to Cersei at all costs (I guess?), but his entire character development—and the reason everyone loves him and feels for him—is because he is internally conflicted about the bad things he does. That was written out. Why? Because men need to watch men be badass on TV? No; feelings are what makes a good story. Including the wibbly-wobbly based-on-a-long-timey-wimey-ago ones.

    To sell the show, one must write to its fans, and that means keeping what spoke to them. (In this case it’s stuff that was really masterfully written. So why is HBO, when touting itself a creator of things that are actually artful compared to other productions (I used this phrase with a grain of salt) taking out the things that were literary greatness and putting in cheap brawn and sex? Yes it’s visually beautiful, but don’t get ahead of yourselves and demand praise for literary greatness. Don’t.)

    Yes, GRRM uses tropes everywhere and twists them perfectly to be genius. Rob and Talisa? Getting together and throwing their clothes down? I guess that fits in that category of twisting tropes. I kinda have to say I like the fact that they just go down on the floor. That’s character of Northmen. I guess.
    ___________

    The changes with Jaqen/Arya continue to make me sad, as a fan and a writer. Sure, what they’ve got works, but each scene with Jaqen in the book was incredibly cinematic already; it was begging to be put on-screen. And, it pandered to female audience members in a way that’s a shame to be left out (and even cries foul of inequity as many mention). Jaqen’s possible nudity is opportunities untaken, for better or worse.

    But, there are two important aspects missing from the Arya/Jaqen work, especially this episode: Arya’s storyline is about feeling powerless, whether in reality or in one’s mind from conditioning. Don’t get me wrong, I love the changes in the show where Arya is seemingly emotionally untouchable. (Go Arya Go!) It’s great watching, and uplifting too. It’s a decent foil for Sansa–perhaps even better that in the book, since she gets to be “a strong female role model” character. Yet, her connection with Jaqen comes from this issue. So, his character becomes less for it. Why are you here? To be a cool killer? No: to teach, mysteriously.

    I suspect they’ll incorporate the Weasel Soup bits somehow in the last episode, breaking it up between this episode and there. But I’m not sure how they would. (And they can’t kill of Tywin, so…is this a way to get her to a certain someone’s clutches? Or will she just end up back at the castle? Who knows.)
    __________

    The other thing that’s missing from A/J in the show that I am sad about is the lack of theme that “the gods are with us.” That’s part of what made his character amazing: Is Jaqen a deliverance from the gods watching over Arya? Or is coincidence only what we hope it to be?

    But the scene at the Weirwood tree is also essential because of it incredible literary value:Jaqen appears–having followed her, because he’s impatient. Is he good or bad? It’s very frightening, creepy; his power is shown, and this time as a threat.He also tries to influence the “wish.” His impatience and that faux pau is “rewarded” in a literary morality sense with Arya turning it around on him, via “I choose you.” In the book, this comes off as a play on fairy tales, which is absolutely gorgeous.(Go Arya Go! More, more!)

    Yet, in trying to influence the wish, Jaqen is also trying to teach Arya. This is important for both character development and literary value to readers/watchers (ie, teaching the readers something, as is in-line with the fairy-tale aspect and the history of what “good literature” tries to do). But, Arya flips it around and tries to teach him: “You’re no friend of mine.”It reads like a god and a human bickering–A god who usually is malevolent as he wanders the Earth, but has attached to a human who at first was just a pet but has grown on him, causing him to behave more benevolently than normal, for reasons he can’t quite understand.(Though Jaqen clearly understands, which makes it all the more tragic.) The human grows into an equal of sorts only to be wrenched away from him through the inevitably different destinies of gods and men. That is, IMO, why this storyline is so arresting to everyone. To cut it out smacks of a lack of knowledge of literary history, whether it is true or not. The show seems to focus on the “cool indifference” of Jaqen’s character and the power play of Arya’s relationship with him. It’s not giving us all the colors of the rainbow, which, say, in a 15 minute scene in a grand finale, could have been done.

    Yes, they have the majority of the last scene with Jaqen in the show, and many many good lines (and so well acted!)—Jaqen’s fear, his anxiety, his anger, his sadness. (Tom got across merely with his face the threat a knife had to do in the book!) But the finer points of character detail and literary artistry are just gone. (I really wanted to see him call her “evil girl,” but no…or not yet, anyway.)That artistic value is what people have been waiting all these weeks and months to see–what are you doing taking them out? The weasel soup scene could have been 100% adapted to screen no problems at all, and it would have been awesome. It would have been worthy of an award. I personally think they’re utterly crazy for taking it out. But that’s not said in a mean or angry way, just in one that’s rather confused, and very disappointed.
    __________

    All in all, I totally agree with the host post. A thought that comes to mind is that the show would benefit from following Masterpiece’s lead and be 1.5 hours per ep.The scenes where more time is taken, consistently feel more developed, which speaks to the fact that they are well written and using time well, they are just making sacrifices and hoping it works. The scenes wouldn’t need to be much longer, just say 2 or 3 minutes each. Given roughly ten scenes an ep, that’d equal about 20/30+ min of screen time. I suppose that’d make production costs explode (though not necessarily, if that much footage is filmed currently and being cut down), but it’s worth it.

    They’re only gonna make this show once. Make it count. Quit demanding perfect scores for work that does at the end of the day leave room for improvement, and do the production like your life depends on it. Because without the creators, the story HAS no life, no flame. Do it for the art, do it for us. We want to live your world; don’t take the finer points away from us.

  440. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Holy crap. I just thought of something. Since D&D are okay with making slight changes here and there (and I’m digging that aspect of the show, makes it a lot more interesting to watch), I just had this thought:

    What if it’s Bronn that saves Tyrion from that final sword slash (saving Tyrion’s life), and then Tyrion looks up at him with genuine thanks and affection, and Bronn gives him that typical insolent Bronn look – and then an arrow juts out of Bronn’s chest!!!???

    I just have this terrible premonition of Bronn dying in the battle saving Tyrion’s life.

  441. LV
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    I like the series very much and look forward to the straight-from-the-novel-scenes as well as the well-written original ones D&D provide. So far, they have done a tremendous job with this adaptation.

    Yet, one of their few blunders, as I feared, is the character of Catelyn Stark. I’m sorry, but her transformation (from season one’s first episode on) into the cliché of an utterly irrational mother is just sad. All of her decisions – even the ultimately unfavourable ones – make sense, psychologically, in Martin’s novels. There she is a politically savvy, ambitious, decisive, confident and strong woman. In fact, Catelyn is one of Martin’s best literary creations, as far as characters are concerned (and I know all his novels and applaud many of his dramatis personae).
    But in the series, more often than not, Catelyn’s important decisions are governed by rash fervour alone. Overall, she is neither wise nor smart. This doesn’t mean that she has no good advice to offer from time to time. But in the novels, Catelyn is her family’s schemer, Robb’s mentor, broker and chief diplomat.
    I don’t know if the changes are supposed to make her more sympathetic to television viewers or if D&D just wanted to present Robb in a more favourable (that is autonomous) light – but in my opinion, it fails terribly.
    The Prince of Winterfell makes this clearer than ever before: In the novels, Catelyn let Jaime go after the news about Bran and Rickon left her (as far as she could know or infer) with Robb and Sansa as her last living children. She is desperate politically as well as personally! In the series she trades for no such obvious reasons. She even appears dull, almost spiteful in her justification (which is more of a rationalisation, since she didn’t really think about it, obviously).
    TV-Catelyn is irrational, defiant, naive, and embodies the terrible cliché of the hysterical mother incapable of thinking straight, ruled by passion and detrimental ‘caring’. This is nothing but bad characterisation.

  442. Hilda
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    I finally watched this morning after work. I am still so pissed about the Jaqen and Arya lack of story! Ok so the weasel soup thing was not set up,fine but the coin,changing face,and most importantly Arya and the guard was the best damn thing in her story. Its the one thing I was most excited about for this season.

    I could care less about Robb banging non jayne and am lmao at the time spent on here as to weather he came or not!

    I will say this…the scene with Robb and non jayne walking in the begining….stunning scenery! Same for the scenery in the scene with Briene and jaime!

  443. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Just Some Dude,

    I never got a sense of Jaime’s “remorse” in the books. I think people read more into that than is actually there. They are confusing morality with necessity. Some of the things he does to “change” were things he would’ve done all along. He didn’t push Bran out the window because he’s evil and hates kids. He did it for the “love” of his family (no, he really did) and to save the lives of his own children, mainly Tommen and Myrcella… being that he hates Joffrey just as much as everyone else… which is strangely “honorable” in a way. Remember how disgusted people were with Casey Anthony’s parents? I don’t get the sense Jaime would cover for Joff like that.

    There’s a story from Roman history, about the founding of the Republic itself, that’s relatable. Brutus (an earlier Brutus, long before Caesar’s assassin) had just deposed King Tarquin, the tyrant. Yet, his own son was caught trying to covertly reinstate Tarquin as king, betraying the Republic, after being promised riches and rewards in return. What does Brutus do? He orders his son to be executed, and watches it go down (just as he would be expected to bear witness if any other man were put to death in public)… and guess what? He’s a HERO in Roman history. Jaime strikes me as that kind of father. Joffrey is already dead to him… and that’s completely rational. He’d be irrational if he defended Joffrey solely because of birthright (i.e. he’s my son so he should be allowed to be shitty).

    But, with that being said, he is never mindlessly cruel, like Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Bolton. He is a man of utility, most of all, and a stark contrast (pun intended) to the blind idealism of the day. Ned wouldn’t have even attacked Varys to free himself from prison, let alone his own cousin, and he’s a head shorter because of it.

    But, if there’s one point that’s hammered home about Jaime, it’s that he DOES protect those he cares for… which is the exact reason why he defenestrated Bran in the first place. When he saves Brienne, he is only displaying that side of his character, rather than “changing”. Over the course of his journey, he grows close to her and the two develop a bond. So, going back to save her from Vargo Hoat wasn’t all that different from the countless times he protected Tyrion from bullies in his youth. But, on the other hand, if Brienne was someone he didn’t care about, and was threatening the lives of the people that he did care about, he would’ve slaughtered her like a pig and personally fed her to the bear himself. And that’s not a contradiction in character, if you ask me. That’s incredibly consistent.

  444. Craig Leska
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    A weak sauce episode. They’ve completely gutted the story north of the Wall, for good reasons, I suppose. Jon’s plot in Clash didn’t excite. But I wish they could have kept some of the great character moments: Jon’s letting Ygritte go and admitting to Qhorin who isn’t surprised at all and offers Jon a lesson on how to lead and how to learn about those you lead. Heck, even Ygritte’s character is a little fleshed out when she claims she can’t be brave forever. Losing the noble sacrifices of the other Brothers in Qhorin’s band and completely ignoring Ghost… sigh. Thank goodness I love what they’re doing with Theon and Tyrion’s stories.

  445. Linda
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    I always watch with a friend of mine – we’ve both read the series once and are currently rereading it. And every week, while we enjoy the series and are glad it’s on for us to see, we spend a lot of time saying “Well that never happened” “That’s completely wrong.” “He/she was never there.” “That’s not even the right person there.”…..you get the picture. Finally last week my friend threw up her hands and exclaimed “Bloody hell, they’re changing all of it!” We haven’t yet watched “The Prince of Winterfell” – we’ll watch it tomorrow. But from the recaps, and especially from Larry Wilson’s video recap, it seems that we are truly getting further and further from the books, more scenes are being thrown in for no good reason (they don’t advance the story and they don’t tell the story), yet more gratuitous sex. Even Larry, who is for the moment a non-book reader, is starting to be able to tell the difference between “real” scenes from the books and “made up shit” for the show.

  446. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am. Probably my least favourite episode of the season, mostly because of the Robb/Talisa scene.

    I had big misgivings back when they first cast Oona chaplin as Jeyne/Talisa, and my worst fears have come true. She’s just awful. HOWEVER, I thought I wouldn’t like Oona the actress. Instead, I’ve had no problem with her. She’s beautiful, and her acting is decent. It’s the writing of her character that has been absolute crap.

    I agree with those who have said D&D should write less episodes. Honestly, their writing has been the worst of the season. I’ve much preferred Cogman and Vanessa Taylor’s efforts this year.

  447. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    AlexBaratheon,

    I thought this was one of the 2 worst episodes of the seasoneasily.

    I keep watching it because the worst episodes of Thrones are still better than most other shows on TV at their best.

    In addition, me noticing plot flaws or or aspects I dislike has nothing to do with my ability to love other aspects of the series. It’s ridiculous to think that because someone likes a series they should and must love EVERY aspect of the show and be blind to errors in logic or not have a critical eye.

  448. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Jaime Lannister,

    Definitely true.
    I’ve been thinking they could and maybe should push back the entire Dontos/ Sansa arc to Season 3 anyway.

    After Joffrey and Margery Tyrell are betrothed Sansa’s situation is helpless and Dontos then appearing to give her hope is situationally perfect to me. Plus if they begin to have Sandor look out for her a bit more, then they can contrast the knight who does not act like a knight with the non-knight that displays honor despite being a killer.

  449. Weirwood
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Butterbumps:
    ok negative out of the way first..

    Cersei assuming Ros was Tyrion’s ‘love’ made no sense to me,If Cersei believes he loves Ros why would he have sent her to service his nephew a couple weeks back? I dunno, that just was too unbelievable for me to stomach.

    You are talking about a woman who is sleeping with her younger cousin while her twin brother/lover is being held captive.

    And you are surprised that she can imagine her whore-monger brother would share a woman with his nephew?

    I don’t think you should expect feelings of romantic sexual fidelity from a woman who also sleeps with a king she doesn’t love for 17 years while having a torrid love affair with her twin brother.

    Cersei doesn’t hold herself to that standard (sexual fidelity as a necessity when in love), why would she hold Tyrion to the same standard?

  450. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    @Talisa

    Her baby brother story is strange.
    Why would her parents not take her to the wedding? you know looking for a match.
    Why would she and her brother go swimming alone? without servants? Did their parents not forbid them to leave their home?
    How did she run away from home? without help? did she steal money from her parents? how did she end up in westros? did her parents not send somebody after her? Why did she leave her baby brother alone at home?

    Either she is lying and Tywin’s creature
    or
    it is bad writing.

    Aryas stay in Harrenhal seems pointless, especially her scenes with Tywin(but yes they where fun). His character got fleshed out but she didnt become harder and stronger.

    Danys story is not what i expected.
    How does she fit into Daxos plots?
    My guess is that he traded the dragons in exchange for Pyat Pree help who is more interested in dany then ruling the city.
    still the plot feels unreal, rushed and danys speeches are starting to get old.

  451. the goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Re: Ros, and Cersei believing she was Tyrion’s secret whore despite him sending her to Joff, I can see how that would seem unbelievable, but in the book Cersei believed it was Alayaya, and she certainly had other customers (she was the most expensive woman at Chataya’s). Also, if you look at it from the other side, Tyrion was honestly trying to “get some of the poison out” and had no idea that Joff would do what he did, so “when you care enough to send the very best” etc, etc

    Re: Arya not killing the guard, I’m much more disappointed that we didn’t get Weasel Soup than the guard. In the book it was important not because she killed someone, but that she killed a Northman. It shows how much she’s changed and how determined she is to get back to her family. But since they didn’t have Roose and Weasel Soup, and therefore she would just be killing some nameless Lannister guard, it wouldn’t have meant nearly as much.

    Lady Stark: I was waiting for Jaime to call Brienne “wench” and for Brienne to call Jaime “kingslayer” all the time. -sigh- Even though this is just a small detail, I would love it if they will NOT miss this.

    Brienne calls him kingslayer twice, I’m sure we’ll get “wench” at some point.

  452. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    darquemode: After Joffrey and Margery Tyrell are betrothed Sansa’s situation is helpless and Dontos then appearing to give her hope is situationally perfect to me. Plus if they begin to have Sandor look out for her a bit more, then they can contrast the knight who does not act like a knight with the non-knight that displays honor despite being a killer.

    Nope, Sandor’s gone after next week’s episode.

  453. Sanette
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    I’m not a purist but I just can’t get past the changes. In most cases they’re just pointless and they can’t blame all of them on the budget and time constraints. And I’m not a big fan of Alan Taylor’s directing style. His episodes are always so dull for some reason. I’ll take Alik Sakharov or David Nutter over Taylor any day. I have the biggest problem with Jon’s storyline. He’s a clever and instinctual guy in the book. Here he’s a complete tool who botches everything. And Ghost is practically non-existent. Robb’s scenes are one big cliché. And no weasel soup? Jaqen’s reaction to Arya saying his name wasn’t nearly as good as it was in the book. And I really don’t know what they’re doing with Cersei.
    Thank God they’re splitting the third book. Hopefully they won’t feel the need to change every detail.

  454. Blourd
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    I agree with those who have said D&D should write less episodes

    Fewer.

  455. Dan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    darquemode,

    What? I keep hearing people say this but I’ve yet to see someone suggest it. Talk about knocking out a strawman. It is perfectly fine to have complaints about the show but what irks a lot of people is the angry vitriol that gets spewed out on all the threads. It’s comments like these that are what bug most of us,

    FUCK DAVID AND DAN. LEARN HOW TO WRITE YOU PRETENTIOUS FUCKS

    Or when we have to hear book purist rubbish with no substance like this,

    I always watch with a friend of mine – we’ve both read the series once and are currently rereading it. And every week, while we enjoy the series and are glad it’s on for us to see, we spend a lot of time saying “Well that never happened” “That’s completely wrong.” “He/she was never there.” “That’s not even the right person there.”…..you get the picture. Finally last week my friend threw up her hands and exclaimed “Bloody hell, they’re changing all of it!” We haven’t yet watched “The Prince of Winterfell” – we’ll watch it tomorrow. But from the recaps, and especially from Larry Wilson’s video recap, it seems that we are truly getting further and further from the books, more scenes are being thrown in for no good reason (they don’t advance the story and they don’t tell the story), yet more gratuitous sex. Even Larry, who is for the moment a non-book reader, is starting to be able to tell the difference between “real” scenes from the books and “made up shit” for the show.

    I mean this person just hates what is not in the books because it is not in the books as far as I can tell. What was the point of that comment other than to sour the mood. I mean she didn’t watch the episode but feels compelled to tell everyone that she doesn’t like what they are doing. This is the definition of misery loves company to me.

    I’m not saying that you act like this, btw. I’m just pointing out that it isn’t that people expect nobody to criticize the show but we could do without the rampant negativity each week. I don’t see people criticizing WIC for having complaints because he doesn’t bring down the mood with what he writes.

    One last thing, why do people who feel angry about something on the show feel the need to express their anger multiple times. For example, Lex, posted above how he hated the Robb/Talisa scene. Then he came back to say that he still hated the scene. I don’t see what more he added other than to just express his anger over the scene yet again. I thought it was clear from the first post but whatever. I’m not pointing out Lex as if he is really a problem, because I typically like his posts, but it does show how the negativity is not just pointing out flaws in the logic. A lot of times it’s just a hateful rant, repetitive, and book purists complaining.

  456. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Ack! you’re right.
    That Sandor event cannot be pushed back… damn! Well they still can push it back just without the contrast of the two “knights” then….

  457. famouskenneth
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Deborah,

    everything, reading them now ( 5th book). the seccond book ends with the revealment, that Bran and Rickon is still alive.

    disapointments.
    The non weasel soup.
    The fact that jon is blamed for getting the rangers killed.
    The writers made it too easy to guess, that the two bodies were not, Bran and Rickon.

    The good parts.
    everything that is happening according to the book, it does not have to be exactly like the book, but the main storyline must remain the same, as well as the impressions of each character.

  458. death to lannisters
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    dizzy_34: The only change they’ve botched in my opinion is Catelyn not finding out about the boys before releasing Jaime. That was when she was truly at the end of her rope and I could buy her decision at that point. Just didn’t work for me in the show

    Couldn’t agree more. As a non book reader, this would have made her motivations much more believable.

    They say a Lannister always pays his debts. I wonder if this is true with Jamie? Somehow I doubt it. It doesn’t seem very true for Cercei either.

  459. Wes
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    It was an alright episode. You could say it’s the ‘calm before the storm’. I don’t like to complain about deviations from the book, but in the case of Cat sending Brienne off with Jaime, I feel that she seems weak-willed and incredibly naive without having her find out about Rickon and Bran “dying” first. Perhaps it had more to do with time constraints and episode pacing than anything.

  460. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone else think Maester Luwin is going to survive the season??

    I can see him taking Jojen’s place (because he is such a great actor and already established on the show) and because he has some of teh same knowledge that Jojen had…(the show emphasized that Luwin has been trained in the more mystical things in the Westeros).

    This is a change I wouldn’t mind… Not only because I found Jojen annoying but because Maester Luwin has become one of my favorite charcaters due to his portrayal in the TV show.

  461. Carlos
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    So who do you think the 3 great swordsman were that Jaime spoke of.

    Ser Barristan Selmy is one for sure… maybe Qhorin Halfhand and Bryndan Tully?

  462. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I do apologize for ranting. I’m not a book purist, and I usually dislike reading all the angry, ranting complaints. But man… the Talisa scene just bothered me so much this week, it really dampened my enjoyment of the whole episode. I’ll try not to dwell on it, though, since you’re right.. it adds nothing to the conversation at this point.

    I did love the humour this week. My friends and I were all laughing out loud several times, which was great.

  463. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    You must not pay attention.

    This event occurred years ago… Talisa was not “of age” to be married or find a match.

    A wedding is an adult event, where children are not welcome.

    Talisa did not run away from home, she left when she was old enough to do what ever she wanted.

    There is no issue with leaving her baby brother at home… because he is no longer a child, and she is not responsible for him.

    Talisa also mention that she took her brother down to the river, just the two of them.

  464. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Carlos,

    Loras Tyrell would definetly be one of them. Which is funny considering Brienne bested Loras at the Tournement.

    The other two would be Selmy and The Red Viper.

  465. oh-bb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    moofy:
    SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY CATELYN FREED JAIME WITHOUT HEARING ABOUT RICKON AND BRAN. really it makes no sense. in the books it was her grief that pushed her over that edge. chronologically, it would all still match up. why why why? SO RETARDED

    I don’t understand why people are having trouble with this one (and I’m sure it’s already been answered, but I haven’t finished reading all the comments), because it’s quite simple, as done up in the show-world: People in Robb’s camp, especially Lord Karstark, were pissed at Jaime for his escape attempt, and in general for simply existing. Brienne and Cat were worried that he would not survive the night without Robb there to wrangle his people. If Jaime dies, Cat loses any chance to get her daughters back, she believes (and she thinks they have both of them in KL). So she released Jaime into Brienne’s charge, so Brienne could take him to KL to make an exchange.

    The motivation/reasoning behind it is is only slightly different from the books. As I recall, the ONLY change is that they don’t know about Bran and Rickon’s supposed deaths in the show. What she DOES believe is that two of her children are captive in Winterfell (she can’t do anything about that but wait for the Bastard of Bolton) and two are captive in KL. She CAN try to do something about that.

  466. Dantilles
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Tim,

    I would hardly use the term destroying. I will agree that there are some head scratching changes but most of them I’m sure we will come to find make sense especially when looking into budgetary concerns and so forth. (which not a lot of people on here seem to) In the scheme of things the Weasel Soup scene being absent doesn’t affect the Arya’s character as much as her NOT killing a gaurd to get out of Harrenhall. But I’m trusting that the writers will work it out and it will make sense. and if it doesn’t……..oh well. I’ll live with it I’d rather have no Reeds than no GoTs.

  467. oh-bb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb,

    (but if Jaime had died, all would be lost.)

  468. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Blourd: Fewer.

    Ha! Touche.

  469. Dan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Oh, don’t get me wrong Lex, I don’t have any problem with what you post. I typically agree with what you write. I didn’t agree with that specific complaint simply because I find Talisa to be my kind of girl so I appreciate that scene. I just used you as an example because it was recent and I didn’t have to scroll up a bunch to find this type of example that I was looking for. I definitely wasn’t trying to paint you as a book purist. I listen to PoIaF and have heard enough of you lately to understand that you are not that.

  470. DH87
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Lex: -The Talisa monologue… OH. MY. GOD. Possibly the worst scene of the entire series so far. I cringed the entire time, and it just kept going… and going… and going… Every single word out of Oona Chaplin’s mouth was utterly boring, aggrivating, and annoying. I finally had to leave the room and take a bathroom break, because it was pissing me off so much… then, when I came back, SHE WAS STILL TALKING.

    Agreed. The actors have no chemistry, and sharing a labored anecdote about swimming naked as a child prior to witnessing mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is not going to bond even the comeliest twosome. Uninterrupted eye contact while facial expressions change is the classic way of telegraphing sexual desire (check out a completely silent Fassbender and the girl in the subway in Steve McQueen’s “Shame”), yet it was absent in both overly long and unsatisfying courtship scenes. Too bad, since I think all readers wanted Robb to have some convincing moments of real romance.

  471. Stephen
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Loved this episode. Some great moments, but I agree they have kinda ruined the Jon Snow character a bit: why did he not just let Ygritte go, and then having him blamed for the deaths of the other 3 rangers. Just kinda looks stupid all the time (I’m not blaming the actor at all just the writers). Would have been better to just play out like in the book, and so more action and less rushed. Also not sure the wildlings would have taken the halfhand alive… better to bring back his head. Plenty of time for Ygritte in season 3.

    And also I agree about the Cat stuff. Would have been more believable if she knew about Bran and Rickon as well and so was more desparate/crazy.

  472. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I agree with your point on some level….
    I do not get the hate ot anger either. So many of the changes that have inspired the vitriol have been fairly minor if not very minor changes to the story in the grande scheme. I guess when people feel passionatley about the source material and connect to certain characters for specific reasons, or connect to certain scenes for specific reasons when those characters or scenes are changed it hurts and angers them.

    At the same time however, I think the dismissive attitude of many calling anyone that criticzes the changes as a Purist is equally offensive.

    For me personally the changes I have not liked are not bad because they were changed….. they were bad because they were changed in bad ways, illogical, the writing was just bad, or the changes themselves accomplished nothing and the original (albeit edited) scenes could have been left in the series.

    I have liked about 75% to 80% of the changes quite a bit. I want the show to continue its brilliance and I want the changes to ADD something worthwhile to the series and most have.

    I won’t speak to any other user’s posts, but I know sometimes I repeat things as a response to others comments usally that were direct replies or quotes to my posts. I usually type more than just what I said the first time, but to people reading a lot of comments in a row they may seem like I am just repeating my self for no reason.

  473. Blourd
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    famouskenneth:
    Deborah,
    The writers made it too easy to guess, that the two bodies were not, Bran and Rickon.

    I was disappointed by this, as well. It could be that they decided that setting up a truly successful con would either be too hard too mean to the audience (and then make them dislike the show because of it). The way the ended up doing it was, I think, an attempt to make the viewers believe that they figured it out before the other characters (the folks in winterfell that still believe the kids are dead). I’ll get over it, I suppose.

  474. Blourd
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Carlos:
    So who do you think the 3 great swordsman were that Jaime spoke of.

    Ser Barristan Selmy is one for sure… maybe Qhorin Halfhand and Bryndan Tully?

    My guesses would be

    Loras Tyrell
    Aurthor Dayne
    Barriston Selmy

  475. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    You make a good point about the repetitiveness of the complaining, though. Unless there’s some kind of debate or discussion happening, we probably shouldn’t keep repeating our complaints.

    The one new point I made in my second Talisa post, though, was just to point out that I have no problem with Oona the actress (wasn’t sure if I liked her at first, but I do). I think it’s the writing I don’t like. Anyways, moving on… :)

  476. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    DH87Uninterrupted eye contact while facial expressions change is the classic way of telegraphing sexual desire

    Good point, and maybe that’s why I felt much more chemistry between Jon/Ygritte and Sam/Gilly. Both of those duos had great, extended eye contact that really sold their attraction to each other.

  477. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC,

    I like that list.
    I was trying to figure out the third. I assumed Selmy and Loras Tyrell were two of course…. I thought maybe he considered Gregor or Sandor Clegane too, but I like Oberyn Martell as the third more I think.

    Either way I am glad they had Jaime say that because it backs up what I always felt. He is one of the best swordsman around during his lifetime.

  478. Markers
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    The Reek/Dagmer-problem is interesting. Anybody realised that nobody has talked to Dagmer yet. Is he an imagination?

  479. Stephen
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    After reading all the comments I can see that the Catelyn thing is ok. They would have killed Jaime so she had to act. However I can’t help but think when the writers change stuff the stories they tell are weaker and often contain plot holes. Why not just have Jeyne the way she is in the book? Maybe better for the romance to be off screen as it was done poorly anyway. Why not just have a few more shots of Ghost to show that he actually cares about Jon? Why is Jon now so dumb? Littlefinger is weird. Dany’s story is too much. Where are my dragons? Big leadership change in Qarth. I think there was enough Dany stuff in the second book to keep it going for the same amount of screen time. Less drama sure, but better than silly stuff.

  480. Yellow Dog
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    Agreed, and terrific analysis.

  481. Obsidian
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Just Some Dude,

    That was well said.

    For those worrying about a certain exchange …judging by the title of the last episode , and Tom Wlasicha’s ( sp ?) interview the coin and the face change are just yet to come. But because the mystery and sort of zen-like quality of ‘book’ Arya and Jaqen’s conversations were eschewed in favour of the show-offy Tywin stuff ( which , in the end lead nowhere), it can’t have the resonance it should have , either for Arya , or for us.

    In the book, Jaqen doesn’t just saytake this coin , if you want to learn this neat trick , or escape a bad situation , it’s.. ” If you would find me again” if they had even worked in thea girl will lose a friend ” line and the hint of a smile at her cleverness would have helped . But even if they do use it ,or something like it at the end , it won’t mean as much as if they’d built it in along the way. Their godswood scene is a great loss…not for what’s “cool”, or ” badass”, but for character building.

    Similar thing with Jon , letting Ygritte go , does more to create a bond between them, than aimlessly wandering about while she talks sex. One or two comments would have been fine, at some point..I wouldn’t have predicted the show would have all that time to waste that way considering the time constraints . Jon looks like a dolt.

  482. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: don’t know why people think Ros being sent to Joffrey would matter to Cersei w/regards to her thinking Tyrion is in love with her. Cersei doesn’t respect Tyrion, really, doesn’t understand him and especially looks down on him because of his whores. This is more clear in the books because there’s more room ot flesh it out, but it’s hardly inconsistent for Cersei to think Tyrion is so depraved or “bad” (for lack of a better term) that he’d send his whore out to service Joffrey.

    Tyrion gave Ros the Lannister necklace in the first season, it is possible that she had it on during the scene with the whores and Joffrey- he saw it, put two and two together and told his Mom.

  483. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    darquemode,

    I think the books state pretty blantantly that Jaime is the best fighter in the Westeros, with the exception of possibly Eddard…but he’s dead so…

    Blourd,

    Arthur Dayne is dead as dust.

    I think an argument can be made for putting Randyll Tarly at #4.

    Markers,

    This is also a strong sign that Dagmer may be Ramsay… None of the other Iron Islanders seem to be friendly with him.

  484. Mike
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    I really hope the Reeds aren’t introduced at this point. Everyone seems to clamor for them, but we all know they are simple literary devices used to get Bran from point A to point B. Ultimately, they are unnecessary characters and I think it is wise to forget about them being in the show at this point.

  485. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    This is why I think Luwin will survive and fill these roles. Maybe Meera will show up later. But Jojen is useless.

  486. Ser Cersei
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Carlos:
    So who do you think the 3 great swordsman were that Jaime spoke of.

    Ser Barristan Selmy is one for sure… maybe Qhorin Halfhand and Bryndan Tully?

    Probably Illyrio Mopatis, Lord Walder Frey and Lommy Greenhands (Jaime doesn’t know he’s dead).

  487. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    Thank you! The Reeds are completely unnecessary. Their purpose can be easily served by keeping Luwin alive. If Howland Reed turns out to have some greater part to play later (in revealing R+L=J for example), he can be introduced when needed. There are enough new characters to worry about in ASOS without trying to shoehorn in the Reeds at this point. Season 2 has survived their absence just fine.

  488. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    Agreed.
    IF Maester Luwin lives past this season finale (and is healthy, not mortally wounded) it could be a very bad sign for the Reeds. He can easily lead Rickon to Skagos while Osha takes Bran and Hodor North.

  489. Lex
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Markers:
    Anybody realised that nobody has talked to Dagmer yet. Is he an imagination?

    Now THAT is a cool theory! Probably not true, but cool!

  490. The Rabbit
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Finally watched the episode.
    And of course, a completely fool as I am sometimes, could not resist to read all the comments over here before.
    So, I after the feeling like I was eating poisoned mushrooms all afternoon – I approcahed the episode with the slight sense of doom.

    Fortunately, it seems I am real fangirl, and I enjoyed the episode a lot.
    It seems that I prefere the episodes with a bit slow pacing and lots of emotions.

    Only slight nitpick is as many of you pointed out Talisa & Robb fast and furious sex.
    What is the most strange part of this I was not so irritated by Talisa and her story, but horny Robb just did not work for me.

    Highlight of the episode: Bronn, Tyrion and Varys. Great stuff.
    Lena Heady, finally, pulled a proper Cersei.

    I wait on my final opinion on Harrenhall and beyond the Wall storyline at the end of the season – because I am pretty sure the things at both places are not done yet.

    Now, to wait for the Blackwater – I am not expecting the book Blackwater – but I still exepcting something great.

  491. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Whoa!! Now THAT is a very cool idea!!

    Markers:
    The Reek/Dagmer-problem is interesting. Anybody realised that nobody has talked to Dagmer yet. Is he an imagination?

  492. Kit
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    I feel like my main problem was that it just didn’t quite work even on a TV-interesting scale? Some great scenes but no real overall flow, and even some continuity problems (didn’t Ygritte say that the wildlings would never take Qhorin alive and yet they did? People can lie all the time, yes, but this just didn’t feel quite justified to me in that we don’t get an emotional reason for WHY the wildlings chose to keep him alive after all or why Ygritte would have lied to the crows about the wildlings’ feelings towards Qhorin). Another example: the Sam/dragonglass scene was wonderfully acted and quite well-written as a scene, but as it just comes in from nowhere with no real connection to the other storylines this episode it stands out as a) just marking time, and b) fairly obvious foreshadowing (I’m now 90% certain that the season will end with the horn-blowing on the Fist).

    And Robb and Talisa…I still think she might be Jeyne in “disguise,” even after that monologue, because why else mention the Crag several times and include it and the fact that it’s run by the Westerlings on the viewer’s guide if the Westerlings don’t somehow enter the picture? But where WERE they? Were they going to the Crag, returning to Robb’s camp, returning to the Crag after briefly returning to Robb’s camp or what? Oona and Richard are both great actors but their lines weren’t particularly inspiring this episode and Talisa’s monologue was pretty painful…I zoned out several times during it. They just didn’t gel during the conversations too well and then they were jumping each other, which was hot (although the repeated insistence on clothed men having sex with naked women is really getting old, HBO–give us some equal opportunity nudity) but kind of random after their less-than-chemical dialogue.

    Dillane and Cunningham had more chemistry in their scene, fer chrissakes, and that’s not even romance, just two great actors making the most of their writing (I’ve found the Stannis writing a bit off this season, ranging in and out of book character at random, although this was mostly in-character, and Benioff’s comments in the behind-the-scenes clips about him wanting power made me facepalm because no, but I can’t blame either actor–they both sell whatever they’re given beautifully and, like I said, have pretty epic chemistry).

  493. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Jambo: ANiceChianti: If the chain doesn’t make it in, then what will turn the tide of the battle?

    Pretty sure the tide of battle will be turned by the fact that Tywin and the Tyrells show up, y’know, exactly like in the book? Even with the chain and the wildfire KL would’ve still been overrun if they hadn’t shown up. The chain was awesome, and it makes Tyrion look even more badass, but it didn’t win the battle. And most people already think Tyrion’s a badass.

      

    Yes, “Go kick a chicken” shall be the new “Go jump in a lake.” It is known.

  494. Ed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Seriously? Well, that just goes to show you that opinions are like a$$holes.

    Cause I really liked that scene, and I think they have great chemistry.

    DH87: Agreed. The actors have no chemistry, and sharing a labored anecdote about swimming naked as a child prior to witnessing mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is not going to bond even the comeliest twosome. Uninterrupted eye contact while facial expressions change is the classic way of telegraphing sexual desire (check out a completely silent Fassbender and the girl in the subway in Steve McQueen’s “Shame”), yet it was absent in both overly long and unsatisfying courtship scenes. Too bad, since I think all readers wanted Robb to have some convincing moments of real romance.

  495. The Goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    OK….I have to say…loved the Jaquen scenes, they were really well done. I also was a big fan of the Tyrion and Cersei scene where they captured Ros.

    What I hated…I mean really hated…the whole Qarth storyline. It’s the seems like it has been the samething over and over…where are my dragons, go to the house of the undying, where are my dragons, whine whine whine. BUT, what really made me hate it was the whole Dany touching Mormonts face, like she was in love with him….it was just painful to watch.

  496. Jaime Lannister
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Is “cool” synonymous with “ridiculous”? >.<

  497. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    The Goat,

    Dany’s storyline has been the weakest thing in this season, in my opinion. I think her storyline was the weakest thing about ACOK too, so I haven’t been surprised by that. I also think it’s the weakest thing is ASOS… and ADWD.

    Oh no, I’m seeing a pattern developing.

  498. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC,

    I’m not so sure of Luwin’s survival. The actor is credited as a guest star. Well, I guess that’s not saying much since lots of them are.

  499. LordStarkington
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    Whoa!!Now THAT is a very cool idea!!

    Theon must be telekinetic then, because Dagmer was shoving Luwin around

  500. Lina
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Markers,

    I think that’s just because he’s really the only featured Ironborn other than Theon and Asha (not counting Balon and the few people who got lines during the scenes at Pyke). Everyone else is just a background extra. He’s only in scenes to point out certain things to Theon. Every second on this show is needed to tell the story, so showing Dagmer (a tertiary character, really) hanging out with other insignificant Ironborn is completely useless. I’m sure D&D never anticipated that people would be suspicious of the character’s identity if they didn’t show him having friends.

    Maybe I’m being close-minded, but Dagmer Cleftjaw is just a regular old Ironborn. He’s real and he’s not Ramsay Snow.

  501. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    I wouldn’t say it was the weakest part of ASOS. She was just scarce. I do see them having trouble making her arc interesting on film, though. I’m not a fan of Larry Williams’ OTAKUassemble reviews (with the exception of his awesome “they killed my nigga Ned” quote), but I do agree with his point this week concerning Dany and Jon, that they only appear as frequently as they do because they’re popular characters.

    To be fair, there’s only so much you can do with a character who’s basically groping for a chance to come into her own throughout the series. The HotU is also one of the best chapters in the series. Less is more, and I wonder if the show will ever learn that about her character. Seeing her yell at someone each episode really dulls the impact of her “waking the dragon” equivalent and paints her as totally static. The best part of her storyline in the first book was the vast progress she made, but everything after that is baby steps in circles. She’s a huge part of why I disliked ADWD.

  502. darquemode
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    Ha! XD

    I could not agree more. Daenerys’ story to me has always been the second most boring of the major arcs to me. It needs to be touched on now and again because of the role she will play in the finale books I’m sure, but it just never was able to draw me in completely like most of the others. The other that I have even less interest in is Bran’s story, but Bran was somewhat interesting when he was the ruling Stark at Winterfell at least.

  503. Un0
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    That tickled me too – I think because it came off so off-the-cuff and casual.

    Jambo:
    I don’t know why, but Jaqen casually kicking that chicken was hilarious.

  504. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Darth Valyria,
    She’s a huge part of why I disliked ADWD.

    Likewise. Her and a certain dwarf.

  505. Macha
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Just finished watching the episode and…..really, really liked it. A LOT.
    Gotta say, I have loved every episode in its own way – what can I do, I’m simply enamoured with this adaptation – but this is the first episode that I have wanted to replay as soon as it was over.
    I agree with people pointing out that this season’s pacing was not always so well handled. In my opinion, the only way they could have avoided that was to keep some characters off-screen (not really a viable option for a television series) or to split the book at least over a season and a half. Alas, it was not so, but I think the writers did their best in the current situation.
    And this brings me to why I enjoyed this week’s episode so much. It was slow, but slow is good IMHO, especially in comparison to how rushed some episodes felt this season. Also, I think D&D especially shine at writing dialogue-heavy episodes, and I prefer them over action filled episodes anyday. But hey, that’s just me.

    So here goes, these are a few of my favourite things…*sings away*

    - Theon and Yara. Such a powerful scene, rough and tender at the same time, with some stellar acting on both parts. Here be book spoilers: I’m wondering how they’ll bring Ramsay into the scene though. Reeaaally curious to see how that scene will be handled, because right now it seems pretty obvious Ramsay and his men will arrive in episode 10. I hope they’ll be able to include the sacking of Winterfell, or at least have him order it, and end it on that, but since the actor hasn’t been cast yet (from what we know of) how will that happen? Ugh, the anticipiation is killing me.
    - Sam & Co. First off, what a fantastic landscape! Second, Dolorous Edd makes a comeback! I actually enjoy him way more in the show, since I practically overlooked him in the books. Smart move on finding the obisidian daggers there…while digging a cesspit. Seriously, how can you not love the writers? :)
    - Tyrion and Shae. Thank you for this scene! As much as I love Tyrion’s dialogue, he was beginning to sound like a witty line-machine, and this scene (as well as the previous one with Cersei) showed his vulnerability in a way that really underlines the complexity of his character.
    - Robb and Talisa. I was a little confused at first by the whole “hey let’s go to the Crag and then never mention it again” business, but I’ll wait to see if there are more developments on that before I judge it.
    However, I think Robb’s storyline is being handled exceptionally well (except the fact that we’re not able to witness any of his military genius, which really is a pity, but that is another matter). In a show that features such a dark world and cynical characters, these scenes may seem boring to some, but they are a breath of fresh air for me. I see that I’m in the minority, but I was really impressed with her monologue. And while some may find „I don’t want to marry the Frey girl” to be lazy writing, for me that felt natural and true to what Robb’s character really is, deep down. Speaking of which, I don’t mind at all the changes in Cat’s storyline from the books. TVCat is somewhat different, yes, and people should decide already if they can accept both characters and enjoy/or judge them separately, or not.
    - Stannis and Davos. Do these guys work great together or what? Probably one of my favourite scenes ever. How is Dillane not Stannis here? Come on, naysayers and cat lovers, hit me with your best shot. ;) He’s owning his role.
    - Varys. “I am trying”. That is all. Conleth Hill for all the awards.
    - Finally, Jaime and Brienne. God, I kept waiting for the ‚wench/my name is Brienne’ exchange the whole time. Can’t wait to see episode 10 as I keep wondering if Jaime enters season 3 two-handed or not. Pleeeease make it the latter, I’m just greedy that way.

    One thing felt a bit lacking in intensity though, and that was Tywin’s departure and Arya’s escape from Harenhall. Arya and Jaquen were, however, golden. Jaquen’s face-changing is probably the scene I’m most looking forward to from the season finale, simply because I can’t imagine how it’ll look on screen. Will he keep some of his features? Have they hired a new actor? What about when Jaquen shows up later in the books? It’ll be a shame to lose Tom Wlaschiha, he’s fantastic.

    Just two more episodes to go?! When, oh when did we get here?

  506. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    darquemode,

    I didn’t find the Bran chapters in the books terribly interesting until ADWD (with some notable exceptions). I think it was a mistake for GRRM to have dropped his story as early as he did in that book. It really could have used some more page time.

  507. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    I’m sure they’d all want a nice tall seat on D&D’s council so their minds could be read onto film. :P

    Seriously, so much undue negativity and only some justified grief. The one major criticism I agree with from the bit I’ve read here is Catelyn’s rushed release of Jaime, which is severely premature since no one in the camp knows about Bran and Rickon’s deaths. I tried to make sense of this move in the writer’s perspective and really, it was all in the service of having to major cliffhangers in Catelyn asking for Brienne’s sword (seriously doubt she could have done much with that in her hands) and Theon’s CharStarks reveal.

  508. HouseLark
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Decent episode, nothing more. It felt like the first part of a two-parter to me. I’m not as concerned with the way Arya/Jaqen is playing out as some people seem to be. OK, Arya doesn’t get her act of heroism by freeing the northmen but that was always a little overblown to me – this girl is very young after all. This way, she has saved a couple of her friends which is pretty bloody good in itself for a single young girl who isn’t some She-Hulk type superhero. As long as we get “valar morghulis” and Jaqen chaning his face then the story is fine.

    I have to agree with the Talisa/Robb scene. For the first time I was bothered by a sex scene. It was just unnecessary and could have ended before the nudity kicked in with no loss. I still can’t figure out what’s going on with Talisa but more and more the Robb scenes feel exactly what they are – tacked on.

    Could have done with more north of The Wall scenes, they were the most enjoyable this week.

  509. LV
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC: darquemode,

    I think the books state pretty blantantly that Jaime is the best fighter in the Westeros, with the exception of possibly Eddard…but he’s dead so…

    Blourd,

    Arthur Dayne is dead as dust.

    I think an argument can be made for putting Randyll Tarly at #4.

    Markers,

    This is also a strong sign that Dagmer may be Ramsay… None of the other Iron Islanders seem to be friendly with him.

    It is a textually unfounded legend that Eddard Stark was anything but an average, competent fighter. This has been established in numerous discussions on westeros.org where new readers often, in their wishful thinking kind of interpretation, argue for ‘Awesome Warrior Ned’ or similar stuff…

  510. Macha
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    PS: Where did the edit option go? I keep spelling Jaqen as Jaquen for some reason. It may have something to do with him being mind-boggling hot. Who knows?

  511. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    It grieves me to second that, but there’s no beating around that mismatched bush. I didn’t expect to be let down by Tyrion chapters. Really, it’s reflective of the book’s issues overall. Too many characters trying to get somewhere and either not getting there or finding out Point B is just as boring as Point A.

  512. LV
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC: darquemode,

    I think the books state pretty blantantly that Jaime is the best fighter in the Westeros, with the exception of possibly Eddard…but he’s dead so…

    Blourd,

    Arthur Dayne is dead as dust.

    I think an argument can be made for putting Randyll Tarly at #4.

    Markers,

    This is also a strong sign that Dagmer may be Ramsay… None of the other Iron Islanders seem to be friendly with him.

    It is a textually unfounded legend that Eddard Stark was anything but an average, competent fighter. This has been established in numerous discussions on westeros.org where new readers often, in their wishful thinking kind of interpretation, argue for ‘Awesome Warrior Ned’ or similar stuff…

  513. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    LV,

    …but for Howland Reed. I REALLY want to know what sort of fancy foot and handiwork Reed pulled to even their odds at the Tower of Joy.

    I think the Badass Ned myth was cultivated by Ned’s duel with Jaime in S1, which I actually appreciated since the show would paint him as largely hapless and helpless otherwise. Nothing says Ned was simply average either, just not on par with sword-gods like Dayne.

    I’m just really sad (being a show apologist/fan doesn’t exempt me from this particular disappointment) that they downplayed Ice so much in the show. It’s not a Sword With No Name, and Robb didn’t care to ask for it in his terms to the crown. It also looks like Ned only wielded Ice for ceremonial purposes, but I wonder if he would swing that in a proper fight. A man can dream.

  514. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Ice (of the HBO adaptation) seems awfully big for a man like Ned Stark to swing in a fight. Maybe Gregor…

  515. LV
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Sorr for the doubleposts.

    And yes , there are several great theories about Howland Reed’s role in the fight at the ToJ – IIRC Happy Ent on westeros.org had the most sophisticated of those a few years ago…

  516. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    HouseLark,

    I doubt the Robb-Talisa scene was concocted for readers as much as new viewers who want to root for two people united by something positive, like young love. I see their sex appeal and back-and-forth as magnets for newer viewers in particular, what I like to call “romantic relief.” I couldn’t stop smiling as they tore at each other. It was such a warm love scene, by any standard, and especially by the show’s. It will also give the impending loss directly resulting from their union that much more gravity. In the book, Jeyne Westerling was a shy honest girl we never got to know very well. We only saw her through Catelyn’s eyes, not Robb’s. I get how people see the writer’s strengthening of her character as forced, but I believe she’s richer for it in the end. Book Jeyne’s a damsel in delight turned distress and little more. At least this one has a strong personality and functions to flesh out Robb as the young man we barely get to see him be in the books.

  517. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    I really want the show to expound upon the exquisite properties of Valyrian steel and the mysteries of its craftsmanship, like the fact it’s lighter than common steel. I know that doesn’t improve Ned’s chances of owning with Ice in-hand, but man, imagine the Stark ancestor who had that baby made to specs!

  518. Alan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    This thread was pretty good until about halfway through, when the comments started inevitably to book comparisons.

    Is there anyway to get a separate thread for book to show adaptation discussions? There’s plenty to discuss — both positive and negative — about the show but we never seem to get a chance to do so without every other post being the same point the poster made last week… and the week before.

  519. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria:
    Mike,
    Thank you! The Reeds are completely unnecessary. Their purpose can be easily served by keeping Luwin alive… There are enough new characters to worry about in ASOS without trying to shoehorn in the Reeds at this point. Season 2 has survived their absence just fine.

    I can’t disagree with you as far as the show is working out, but I would like to see the Reeds for their flavor and the sort of wish-I-was-old-enough-for-her-to-like-me vibe you’d get from Bran by having Meera around. Jojen is also a spiritual mentor to Bran who can actually explain his abilities unlike the disbelieving Luwin and embodies a new flavor of supernatural force in the North that we haven’t heard much about in the series so far. But in your favor, I concede that the comely TV Osha can attest to the storied practice of warging in the North and the legends of greensight, which wouldn’t leave Bran in the dark about his budding abilities, though she couldn’t function as the peer Jojen would.

  520. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    re: swordsman

    Keep in mind, Loras is the second best swordsman in his own family. There is cannon evidence (spoken from Loras, himself) which states that Garlan in the finest sword of the Tyrell household (although, Loras is the better lance). If memory serves, I believe Loras makes the comment as Garlan is training against four combatants.

  521. Praise R'hllor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    [contains MILD SPOILERS... the spoiler tag function isn't working for some reason]

    Superb character-building/build-up episode….

    I enjoyed the last few episodes but was getting very concerned with some of the larger deviations from the book, however I am very pleased with how this episode managed to find its way back to the book in most cases.

    Excellent Winterfell scenes, my favourite storyline of the season so far.

    Rattleshirt was great, and PRAISE R’HLLOR it looks like the Qhorin scene is in… please have him say the “Sharp” line!

    LOVED the Tyrion-Cersei scene, even if it did seem a bit odd after last week. Also.. can anyone confirm if Tyrion did actually give Ros a lion necklace in season 1? I can’t recall it. One slight complaint…. Podrick has nowhere near been built up enough for his scene next week to have any meaning to non-book readers (if it happens)… He should be a nervous wreck but instead he’s laughing at Joffrey jokes!

    I actually quite enjoyed the Robb scenes, though after last week I was certain about Talisa’s identity as you-know-who [no spoiler tags available for some reason so can't say it] but now I’m not too sure.

    Nice little scene in Qarth, looking forward to the HotU, but to all those hoping it may be next week – from the episode description i think it’s pretty clear it will be in episode 10. Also.. I’m quite staggered that people actually believe that the HotU could take up a whole episode or even span across two episodes! yes its a good scene, but its 5-10 minutes at most!

    Loved the Stannis-Davos exposition, thought we might get another glimpse of Salladhor Saan though, surely he’ll be around next week!

    General note – really loved the amount of straight-from-the-book dialogue this episode, just when I was starting to believe that only the non-D&D writers cared to keep any in.

    Now for the only big issue of the episode in my opinion……… How D&D can call themselves fans of the books and yet not include one of the most iconic scenes in the entire series is beyond me… I need my Weasel Soup!! Although I am not one to wish for action-packed episodes every week, this scene would also have provided a very cool fight scene in an otherwise action-lite episode. (NOTE to those bemoaning the lack of coin/facechange… again, It’s pretty clear from the description that at least on of those will occur in episode 10).

    And finally…. CANNOT WAIT for the nest episode, the previews look stunning… unfortunatley for me I am on holiday next week and so have to wait a whole 2 weeks for it!! Torture!

  522. B Cogman
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Yeah, I missed that. Sorry, Meg. Should I fall on my sword or would you like to wield it yourself?

  523. SeVv
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Nicole,

    lol go to the non reader recap and comment afterwards about what non readers think. thanks.

  524. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC,

    Point taken about the wedding.
    well if she was that young it makes even less sense to me that she and her brother would go down to the river alone.

    But old enough to do what she wants as a noble?
    The series and history shows that that isnt the chase.
    Isnt it even one of the main points of the books & the tv series, that people of power & inportants cant do what they want?
    just as Myrcella and every other noble woman is born to get married.
    but alright, maybe there is a RED CROSS like thing in westros & essos?

  525. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    I also loved the Robb-Talisa scene. Loved it. I thought it was heartbreaking, and the score seemed to have been written for book readers. It made the whole scene seem so tragic to me, and actually made me tear up a bit. To be honest, I was a bit surprised to read that so many readers seem to be up in arms about it (foolish, I know). I mean, I can understand new viewers not being too into Robb’s new love interest and not getting the significance of it all, but readers have to understand how significant a moment that is. I don’t get the hate.

  526. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Fair enough point about the Reeds. I perhaps overstated my case a bit. I know the Reeds served a larger purpose in the books than I gave them credit for, I just don’t think it’s anything the show can’t survive without.

  527. Zack
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Macha: Jaquen’s face-changing is probably the scene I’m most looking forward to from the season finale, simply because I can’t imagine how it’ll look on screen. Will he keep some of his features? Have they hired a new actor? What about when Jaquen shows up later in the books? It’ll be a shame to lose Tom Wlaschiha, he’s fantastic.

    lol…I’m the type of guy that’s gonna try and find every possible reason to keep the good actors with us. Donald Sumpter as Luwin and Tom Wlaschiha as Jaqen are two definitely worth keeping. Plus then they don’t have to bother trying to cast the characters these actors can stand in for later.

    Can Wlaschiha do different accents? (I think, at his casting announcement, I remember reading that he spoke multiple languages, so…) How different could he be made to look with a new wig, scars, or whatever else? If these sorts of questions can be satisfactorily addressed, I’d like him to be kept on board.

  528. Zack
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Ugh. If the text I quoted was spoilered, my reply ought to have been as well. And the edit function has been removed. If a mod wants to address this for me, it would be appreciated.

  529. Alan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    MMonroe:
    re: swordsman

    Keep in mind, Loras is the second best swordsman in his own family. There is cannon evidence (spoken from Loras, himself) which states that Garlan in the finest sword of the Tyrell household (although, Loras is the better lance). If memory serves, I believe Loras makes the comment as Garlan is training against four combatants.

    This discussion from the book frankly illustrates to me the futility of the “who’s the best fighter” threads that inevitably crop up.

    It’s not a pro sports league. Oh, the nobility plays at jousting and melee — where people are pulling some punches — but the while people may have internal perception of who is a top fighter, combat is not that skill-based in a real battle. Luck, numbers, etc., plays a tremendous role. Loras trained for a sport; Garlan trained for a battle. But even that wouldn’t help Garlan if he’s engaged with someone and gets stabbed from behind.

    The nobility tends to dominate in medieval battles because they had horses and armor and they let the commoners do their dirty work. Not because they were individually great fighters. Martin exposes some of this by pointing out people like Bronn. I think the reality is, a lot of people could kill Jaime Lannister in battle. Not every time, and maybe Jaime beats a lot of these guys 90 times out of 100. But that hundredth…

  530. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    I do agree with you on that broader point. My most basic sentiment is I would miss them dearly. The Fellowship of the Warg!

  531. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    LV,

    I’m no so sure of this…

    It is difficult to measure Ned’s abiltites because he doesn’t take part in non-lethal combat (unlike Loras and Jaime who can measure their ability by how many people they’ve defeated in Tourneys). Also he stands his ground pretty well with Jaime in Kings Landing.

  532. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    The discussion rages on. But I think we can all agree that Tyrion is the most hung.

    It is odd, isn’t it? It’s as if people assume battle prowess means how one character would fare against a single other character. It’s sort of the spirit of competition embodied by tournaments. Exhilarating, but largely artificial. These are people, not stat-bound builds. XD

  533. Alan
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Praise R’hllor

    Praise R’hllor:
    [contains MILD SPOILERS... the spoiler tag function isn't working for some reason]

    Now for the only big issue of the episode in my opinion……… How D&D can call themselves fans of the books and yet not include one of the most iconic scenes in the entire series is beyond me… I need my Weasel Soup!! Although I am not one to wish for action-packed episodes every week, this scene would also have provided a very cool fight scene in an otherwise action-lite episode. (NOTE to those bemoaning the lack of coin/facechange… again, It’s pretty clear from the description that at least on of those will occur in episode 10).

    I’m not sure, but I imagine it was complexity and cost. To do it completely like the book, you’d have to introduce the Stark prisoners, introduce Roose more quickly and move him to Harrenhal, introduce and establish the Bloody Mummers (because you can’t have the Mountain play Hoat’s role). Then you have to do Weasel Soup — but remember, Arya’s still at Harrenhal and now she’s with Roose, then she has to turn around and still escape. When I read the criticism here, it often sounds as if people think Arya’s escape (with the coin) is at the same time as Weasel Soup. But it’s not.

    I’m not saying the show story is better. But it’s much less complex. I thought the Arya-Tywin stuff was generally great. I was not overly blown away by this week’s episode, but I get why the full arc might not have fit well in this season.

    It’s a guess.

  534. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    I’m just relieved to see another reader who isn’t crucifying that arc. Their time together this episode made me really happy, and a more hidden sequestered-away part of me very sad… for the obvious reasons. Sure, it’s not the most organic arc, but it needs to be here. For newcomers and the sake of the show. It wouldn’t make sense to not work up to the eventual tragedy, which was a delightful but horrifying surprise in ASOS, but not suited to television where people feel more entitled to time with the characters they enjoy. We hear enough about Robb and care deeply for him through Catelyn in the books, but we have him in the flesh in the show. The scenes themselves are necessary, regardless of whether people liked their execution.

  535. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    1) Enough already with all the whining from certain – far from all – book readers! The TV show is by necessity a completely different animal, its twin purposes are to entertain HBO’s existing subscribers and to attract new ones. It wasn’t produced specifically to make hardcore fans of the source material ecstatic.

    IMHO, a critique based solely on the quality of the adaptation is arguably less useful than an examination of the show’s internal logic.

    2) The show is arguably at its best when an action – however reprehensible from the viewer’s perspective – is consistent with what we were previously told about that character:

    Tywin told Arya she reminded him of his own daughter, implying that Cersei had in her youth also been a smart-alec tomboy that he enjoyed playing mindgames with. It’s possible all that ended when his wife died while giving birth to the misshapen Tyrion, whom Tywin never respected until that one day in his war council tent. Cersei – then still a child – coped by irrationally blaming Tyrion for her mother’s death, perhaps also for the loss of that care-free relationship with her father.

    Tywin had married Cersei off to King Robert for purely political/dynastic reasons. She wasn’t given a choice, though she dutifully accepted her fate. Nevertheless, she has chafed at the patriarchal and misogynistic (two sides of the same coin) nature of her family and society at large ever since. That said, Tyrion’s pointed reminder that Arya had fled KL on Cersei’s watch clarified that she still cares about her father’s opinion.

    Last season, Cersei’s private conversation with Robert revealed that she had at first tried to make her arranged marriage work. Unfortunately, the death of her first black-haired(!) son soon after his only that Robert’s heart still belonged to Lyanna Stark, a ghost she could never hope to compete with. That plus her husband’s perpetual infidelity prompted her to find solace and revenge in the arms of the only man she ever trusted: her love-struck brother Jaime, a man who doesn’t flinch at the sight of a woman giving birth. Guess who told cousin Lancel to keep Robert well-lubricated on his hunting trips?

    Initially terrified of being discovered, she later admitted her incest to Ned Stark, knowing his days were already numbered. She justified it by reference to the Targaryens, asserting that royal families have the right to keep their bloodlines pure. After the coup d’etat, Ned’s private letter to Stannis was widely disseminated. Even the commoners in the streets of KL now openly deny Joffrey’s claim to the throne. Cersei no longer cares because “power is power”, wearing her shame with bitter pride.

    When Sansa had her first period, Cersei advised her not to love anyone but her future children “because on that score a mother has no choice”. This revealed her self-loating for loving anyone at all. Cersei does not even dare love herself any longer, never mind Jaime or her boytoy Lancel. Indeed, her “love” of her children may amount to no more than an appreciation of their dynastic value. We don’t ever see her being affectionate with any of them. Cersei recognizes the cruelty of Sansa’s fate, but the pity is disingenuous: the Stark girl is just as much a pawn as she herself had been. Contrast this with her anger at Tyrion for sending Myrcella off to Dorne, both because that is her own daughter and because once again, a member of her family had made a seminal decision behind her back.

    To my mind, Cersei is a fascinating case study in how circumstances can lead a precocious child to become a sociopathic adult.

    Last week, Cersei was smart enough to acknowledge that Joffrey is a dangerous king. However, he’s the reason she is Queen Regent at all! Still, she was so wracked by guilt and self-loathing that she didn’t realize Tyrion was asking her for permission to sideline Joffrey for the benefit of House Lannister.

    This week, she appeared to have reflected on that conversation and decided to make explicit that she had not given any such permission. In particular, she knows Joffrey is useless in military matters and does not want to risk his life in battle (recall that Tywin had no such compunction regarding Tyrion).

    She felt confident in making this show of strength because her own spies had found a whore (Ros) wearing a necklace featuring the Lannister lion. We first learned about that in last season’s scene featuring her and Theon. It does not matter that Cersei had initially wanted sought out this supposed trump card to retaliate for Myrcella’s arranged marriage or that Ros happened to be one of the two Tyrion had sent to Joffrey’s royal chambers.

    In Cersei’s sick and twisted world, abusing another woman is fair game as long as that hurts her younger brother. He does care a little about his old friend Ros but much more so about Shae, the one his sister has not yet discovered. However, he cares just as much that she is giving priority to her pet peeves over the existential threat posed by Stannis’ impending assault on KL.

  536. Meg
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    I wonder whether newbies are expecting a long siege of King’s Landing now, since this episode talked about it so frequently. I think it might be disappointing if the entire battle is over relatively quickly. Maybe more disappointing when Stannis loses as well ;)

  537. tysnow
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    For once, this show has a truely romantic love/sex scene (Tyrion/Shae started out as business) one that many viewers have been clamouring for and now I see way to much negativity concerning it. The relationship between Robb/Jeyne-Talisa did happen, just off camera basically. So what gives, people clamour for less lust/crude sex and more sincere loving sex, we get some lovin sex and now, commentors rolling eyes and hating it. I guess D&D can never please all the people all the time. I guess when we get to J/Y sex the haters will trash that too (they all must be pormophiles).
    By the way D&D, I agree with the critics that are claming about the sex/nudity being bias and prejudice, you show naked women, but no naked men. If you want the TB crossover HBO, make sure D&D incorporate naked men to please the female viewers. I really don’t see the hang-up with this, and why it hasn’t happened to please that demographic yet.

  538. Macha
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Heh, me too. Also, casting another actor for Jaqen might be rather confusing for non-readers, and they have enough characters to keep up with already. Oh well, it’ll be a while before we see him again in the show, so we’ll just have to wait and see. And on the subject of the Reeds, I liked them well enough in the books, but now I don’t mind their absence at all and would gladly welcome the chance to keep Donald Sumpter for the long run. From the way they phrased the synopsis for episode 10, I kinda doubt Luwin will survive though. Plus, there’s still the issue of the sacking of Winterfell, and – not to sound cruel or anything – we kinda need someone of importance from Winterfell to die at that point in order to maintain the powerful impact it had in the books. Grr, that sounded awful, but I think you get my point.

  539. Langkard
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Darth Valyria,

    I’m just relieved to see another reader who isn’t crucifying that arc. Their time together this episode made me really happy, and a more hidden sequestered-away part of me very sad… for the obvious reasons. Sure, it’s not the most organic arc, but it needs to be here. For newcomers and the sake of the show. It wouldn’t make sense to not work up to the eventual tragedy, which was a delightful but horrifying surprise in ASOS, but not suited to television where people feel more entitled to time with the characters they enjoy. We hear enough about Robb and care deeply for him through Catelyn in the books, but we have him in the flesh in the show. The scenes themselves are necessary, regardless of whether people liked their execution.

    Nicely put. Yes, we may have complaints about how some of the story arcs are written, condensed or entirely changed; but this series isn’t an open sandbox where the writers are free to go off in any direction at all. The writers have to hit certain markers in the story. The story is fixed and has definite outcomes which must be met and yet they also have constraints unique to television adaptations which have to be dealt with as well. They had to cut Tyrion’s first battle last season because of budget needs, for example.

    So far, I think Dan and Dave have done an admirable job of walking that path while juggling all of the competing requirements. It can’t be easy trying to remain faithful to the books within reason, pleasing HBO, writing compelling television for non-readers of the books and also satisfying the sometimes rabidly vicious fans of the books – all within budget and time limits which are not very elastic.

  540. MMonroe
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    I concur with the statement below… There are multiple variables to weigh within a melee: desire, footing, technique, weather, terrain, fortitude, inspiration from a lady’s favor… The best is fluid discussion which can change in the flick of a wrist… And Martin notes as much.

    Alan: This discussion from the book frankly illustrates to me the futility of the “who’s the best fighter” threads that inevitably crop up.

    It’s not a pro sports league.Oh, the nobility plays at jousting and melee — where people are pulling some punches — but the while people may have internal perception of who is a top fighter, combat is not that skill-based in a real battle.Luck, numbers, etc., plays a tremendous role.Loras trained for a sport; Garlan trained for a battle.But even that wouldn’t help Garlan if he’s engaged with someone and gets stabbed from behind.

    The nobility tends to dominate in medieval battles because they had horses and armor and they let the commoners do their dirty work.Not because they were individually great fighters.Martin exposes some of this by pointing out people like Bronn.I think the reality is, a lot of people could kill Jaime Lannister in battle.Not every time, and maybe Jaime beats a lot of these guys 90 times out of 100.But that hundredth…

  541. Langkard
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Meg:
    I wonder whether newbies are expecting a long siege of King’s Landing now, since this episode talked about it so frequently. I think it might be disappointing if the entire battle is over relatively quickly. Maybe more disappointing when Stannis loses as well ;)

    I suspect many of those who don’t know the books are going to be a bit shocked at how quickly Stannis’ easy victory is defeated by wildfire and the backstabbing Tyrell’s. But that might make Stannis’ reappearance north of the Wall all the more interesting to them. The next 2 episodes are going to be full of things which are going to shock and annoy non-readers. Don’t you wish you could grab them by the collar and yell, “wait until next season!” at them?

  542. Praise R'hllor
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Alan: I’m not sure, but I imagine it was complexity and cost.To do it completely like the book, you’d have to introduce the Stark prisoners, introduce Roose more quickly and move him to Harrenhal, introduce and establish the Bloody Mummers (because you can’t have the Mountain play Hoat’s role).Then you have to do Weasel Soup — but remember, Arya’s still at Harrenhal and now she’s with Roose, then she has to turn around and still escape.When I read the criticism here, it often sounds as if people think Arya’s escape (with the coin) is at the same time as Weasel Soup.But it’s not.

    I’m not saying the show story is better.But it’s much less complex.I thought the Arya-Tywin stuff was generally great.I was not overly blown away by this week’s episode, but I get why the full arc might not have fit well in this season.

    It’s a guess.

    Yeh, I understand why the whole Harrenhal story didn’t play out like it did in the book , and while not as good as the book version it was certainly more streamlined and TV-friendly, with some excellent Arya-Tywin scenes… but surely they could’ve figured out a way to incorporate Weasel Soup into the escape scene? I guess it really isn’t a big issue in the grand scheme of things, but would’ve been nice to see such a fan-favourite moment on screen.

  543. LV
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC:
    LV,

    I’m no so sure of this…

    It is difficult to measure Ned’s abiltites because he doesn’t take part in non-lethal combat (unlike Loras and Jaime who can measure their ability by how many people they’ve defeated in Tourneys). Also he stands his ground pretty well with Jaime in Kings Landing.

    Ah, you are talking about the television series’ version of Eddard, right? Sorry, I misinterpreted your post. As far as TV-Eddard is concerned, I agree with you: D&D have turned him into a considerable swordsman, he stood his ground very well indeed.
    By the way, I thinks that this change works very well on screen. :)

    As for the novels:
    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34218-was-ned-a-good-swordsman/#entry1678443

    And here is a relatively recent post by Happy Ent detailing his theory about Howland Reed:
    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/49214-the-fight-at-the-tower-of-joy/#entry2437079

  544. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    It just hit me… we’ve only seen Salladhor Saan once so far. He was hilarious!

  545. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Praise R’hllor,

    Regarding Weasel Soup, they would have needed so much more setup to make that happen. We would have lost some Tywin-Arya moments, which I think most people agree are really great. And who would she have been souping? Who would she have been rescuing? That would have been a moment that the whole season would have to build to.

    I think on screen that whole scene might not play out as believably as it did on the page. Also, I think D&D might be waiting a bit longer to get into where Arya starts murdering people, hence the simplified escape scene. Maybe it just isn’t a place they want to go this season, thematically.

    I liked that part in the book, but I can understand why it had to go. We readers lose some good stuff, but we are gaining a lot of good stuff in exchange.

  546. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    I also think making every alias Arya has in the book happen on-screen will confuse the hell out of people. Arya? Little boy? Arry? Weasel? Nan? No one? Peggy Sue? Not to mention how including every character responsible for each name could complicate the story and the production, which has enough on its hands.

  547. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    @one more thing about Talisa
    Brian Juergens

    said it best:
    Connecticut Girl in the Peace Corps
    that seems very unlike “a song of ice and fire” for me.
    Or is she lying…

  548. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Macha,

    I hope they can pull off the facial transformation without necessitating the recasting ofthe mesmerizing Tom Dubbaya (who is my first official man-crush on the show). After all, the Faceless Men can only give themselves extreme makeovers in that particular area. Everything else is the same, unless I missed that part in the books. [laughs]

  549. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I kind of hope he just distracts Arya and slips on a pair of Groucho glasses.

  550. DavidBC
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    MMonroe: Also, casting another actor for Jaqen might be rather confusing for non-readers, and they have enough characters to keep up with already. Oh well, it’ll be a while before we see him again in the show, so we’ll just have to wait and see. And on the subject of the Reeds, I liked them well enough in the books, but now I don’t mind their absence at all and would gladly welcome the chance to keep Donald Sumpter for the long run. From the way they phrased the synopsis for episode 10, I kinda doubt Luwin will survive though. Plus, there’s still the issue of the sacking of Winterfell, and – not to sound cruel or anything – we kinda need someone of importance from Winterfell to die at that point in order to maintain the powerful impact it had in the books. Grr, that sounded awful, but I think you get my point.

    This isnt an arguement about who is the best fighter in the Westeros…

    It’s a discussion on who we think Jaime is referring to when he states that there are only 3 men in the Westeros who could potentially best him. By specifying an exact number, it can be assumed that Jaime has specific people in mind.

  551. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    In Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, game of thrones plays YOU.

  552. Macha
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Well the facial transformation is something they’ll have to work on, Arya herself is heading towards that in the books, as I remember. If only the show reaches that point. But hey, after the shadow baby scene, I have absolute faith in their visual effects team, so Jaqen’s transformation should be quite the sight.

  553. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Macha,

    By now it’s certain. The talent is there, and it looks like they’re putting in more work than the budget would seem to allow. That’s an impression I get from a lot of GoT “making of” videos. Those people are overclocked. :)

  554. freyar_88
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Just a perfect episode.
    That its all.

  555. shadowfell
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Is it just me or was the dialogue between Robb and Talissa before the kiss the worst ever on the show? I couldn’t watch and listen, it was just too painful. I understand they have to build up their relationship, but there are so many things that don’t make sense. Both walking through the forest (it is war after all!), she just entering the tent when Robb is talking to one of his bannermen. Sorry, but that storyline has failed to deliver….

  556. S money
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Any one else nervous we aren’t going to get the epic wild fire explosion

  557. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    S money,

    I read an interview with D&D on EW. They strongly hinted that there would be a huge wildfire explosion. One of them was referencing the sound design for something huge and loud, and said the book readers would certainly know what he was referring to. I would say you can sleep easy this week.

  558. Tom Hazel
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    @Winter

    Concerning your dislikes, with regards to Cersei, I couldn’t agree more. She jumped from hating her son one minute to glorifying and protecting him the next.

    However, concerning Robb’s romance, I thought this was done so well: It illustrates that Robb, whilst being trying to be a good king and uphold his vows, at the end of the day he is a young man with urges like the rest of us. He’s a young man and Tellisa/Jeyne is a young woman. Its highly romanticised – A young King forsaking all vows and honor in the name of love and lust. GRRM’s books have always had a romanticism element to them (the popular Jon Snow parent theory) and I thought it was awesome that Benioff and Weiss kept it in there.

    Epic Episode overall :D

  559. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Tom Hazel,

    Liking someone and loving them aren’t the same thing. I believe this is what’s at work in Cersei’s lines this week. Of course she can’t not see he’s the cruelest little prick the Seven Kingdoms ever saw, but his life is still of vast import to her. She said as much to Sansa, that it is inevitable for a mother to love her children, even if it’s Sansa who has to love Joffrey’s batshit brood someday.

  560. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    The Rabbit: It seems that I prefere the episodes with a bit slow pacing and lots of emotions.

    must be a girl thing then because a like that too (and Macha it seems)

    Macha: But hey, that’s just me.

    and me!
    Nice pacing indeed.

  561. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    shadowfell,

    They spared us the pizza delivery man.

    Seriously, though. Talisa was a bit long-winded about her life, but Robb listened quietly. I’m sure he was just entranced by her presence more than anything. Someone else mentioned the line “I don’t want to marry the Frey girl” and writing like it as a target of fan criticism. This is Robb. He’s in his 20s on the show, but he’s just about Jon’s age, and look at how Jon is around a girl. When they’re together, how else are they going to talk, Volantene anecdotes aside?

    I still don’t get it, though… have they even gone to the Crag yet? Is Talisa really her name now?

  562. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    It can be a boy thing. I think I embody that. I like the slow-burning episodes the best because it lets the characters spend time being themselves. It’s especially rewarding when we see characters who don’t get much time to do just that in the books unwind on-screen. I like the show shifting to a lower gear so we can just see relationships at work. This week, we really needed the Tyrion -Shae scene, for example. I could have done with more since she’s so critical to his characterization in the books, but we got a taste of it that we’ll need to make sense of developments to come. The same goes for Robb-Talisa and the rest. Stannis-Davos was another standout this week.

  563. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    One of the details I felt the showrunners had executed poorly related to Catelyn’s manner and rationale for setting Jaime free.

    In ep 17, Lord Karstark had demanded Jaime’s head. His troops were irate and increasingly drunk. Even Brienne had no appetite for defending him. Cat clearly loathed Jaime for his lack of honor and especially, his attempt to murder her son Bran. When she asked Brienne for his sword, viewers were left to believe she would execute him herself because that’s how the Starks take care of business.

    However, there were a few inconsistencies: Jaime’s guard was still a Karstark soldier. She ordered him to leave but did not demand the keys to the prisoner’s chains. How did she free Jaime? A sword would be quite ineffective and cause a ruckus to boot. At the very least, the guard would have noticed and alerted his lord.

    In ep 18, an angry Robb and Lord Karstark confronted Catelyn. Normally a proud woman, she did not rise to make her case. She’s a widow, her daughters are prisoners and now, her home has been sacked and her youngest sons also imprisoned – 0r worse. The absence of news would be a source of incessant worry, guilt and sleepless nights (quite possibly recurring nightmares) for any mother. All of these would have been credible motivations for Cat to prioritize family over duty and honor (cp. the Tully words), but neither Cat’s lines nor the cinematography communicated them adequately.

    Cat also failed to remind Robb that Ned had taken Theon as a ward (i.e. prisoner in a gilded cage), precisely to keep the Balon Greyjoy from retaliating against the Starks. She also failed to remind him that she had strongly counseled against releasing Theon. From Cat’s perspective, what right did Robb have to chastise her for releasing his prisoner after he had foolishly released hers?

    Most importantly, Cat knows that Tywin Lannister had been a late ally in Robert’s rebellion and had fought alongside the Starks against the Greyjoys’ ill-advised counter-rebellion. The viewers know Tywin considers the separate wars against Robb and Stannis to be “madness”. Perhaps Cat knows the man well enough to believe as much. Without that leap of faith, why would she even hope that he would respond by releasing her daughters?

    She did get to say that killing Jamie would not bring back Lord Karstark’s sons, whereas releasing him offered at least a chance that her daughters would be returned to her. However, for all his thirst for vengeance, Karstark had agreed to wait for Robb to return. She knew Robb considered Jaime too valuable to sacrifice.

    Absent the emotional subtext of a mother betrayed and at the end of her tether, Cat’s assertion came across as a feeble, selfish and hopelessly naive attempt at a rational argument. Politically, Robb had no choice but to place her under arrest but this way he wasn’t forced to feel any guilt or compunction about it.

    IMHO, the writers should have shortened Yara’s and Talisa’s backstories to free up enough screen time for Cat to make her case more fully and more emotionally.

  564. sitting down
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    ha!

  565. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp: It can be a boy thing

    Luckily it can! I think I particularly enjoyed Yara/Theon but there were feelings of all kinds in relationships of all kinds. Slow is good. I would have liked to see more Qhorin/Jon, though. It´s never enough, I know.

  566. Macha
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    Aye, more Qhorin would have been even better. Hell, I’d give good money to see a Night’s Watch spin-off sort of thing. It’ll have to be a prequel though, with Yoren and Qhorin being best friends forever. :)

  567. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Macha: Yoren and Qhorin being best friends forever

    :) with emphasis on”forever”

  568. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    I was surprised how moving Yara’s anecdote turned out to be. It was jolting at first, but I’ve come to accept Yara over Asha. Asha came off as a bit more sexualized than she needed to be in the books, particularly ADWD. Yara just looks unapologetic and battle-proven, weathered by the expectations of her father but also strong in her own right.

    I’m not a huge Halfhand fan show-wise. They nailed the look and temperament, but I found his contradiction of Jon (who only tries to relate to whatever Quorin says) confusing and patronizing. Sure, Jon is an untried ranger, but Quorin seems to have no respect for him despite deigning to let Jon participate in the mission.

  569. DH87
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    shadowfell: Is it just me or was the dialogue between Robb and Talissa before the kiss the worst ever on the show?

    It isn’t just you, but there are a number of others (I won’t say “sexposition”) that would give it a run for its money in the race to the bottom.

  570. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Again, I find myself… with no edit button. :|

    *Qhorin >_<

  571. Meg
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman:
    Meg,
    Yeah, I missed that. Sorry, Meg. Should I fall on my sword or would you like to wield it yourself?

    Ehh, that one isn’t worth all the dramatic bleeding. However, the way Loras Tyrell mispronounces his own last name – “Tirill” – and Cat leaving Ned’s bones in the Tyrell camp are the mistakes that keep me up at night!

    Oh, and seriously folks. I hope Jacqen returns Needle to Arya because she didn’t have it with her when she escaped. *worried and concerned*

  572. DH87
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman: Yeah, I missed that. Sorry, Meg. Should I fall on my sword or would you like to wield it yourself?

    Brian, Don’t be hasty, let us talk you off the virtual sword point: many of us were showering you with lots of love a few weeks ago, and, besides, being the continuity editor is a thankless task. I once had a cook prepare one meal in Chapter 8 and the diners sitting down to completely different menu in Chapter 9.

  573. Blourd
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    shadowfell,
    I still don’t get it, though… have they even gone to the Crag yet? Is Talisa really her name now?

    I was annoyed at that “hole” as well (if it even is one). When he told her to come with him to the Crag, she seemed like she didn’t want to go. They’ve gone and come back and there’s been no explanation about why she was apprehensive about it.

  574. Blourd
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    I was surprised how moving Yara’s anecdote turned out to be.

    Me, too. When she asked the crew to clear the room, my immediate expectation was that she didn’t want them to see her lay into Theon (the standard military courtesy of not berating an officer in front of his men). It was a nice surprise to find that what she wanted to hide from them was her tenderness for him as a brother. Then, after I look back at it, it makes perfect sense. She’s been openly mocking him for several episodes already.

  575. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Meg: Ehh, that one isn’t worth all the dramatic bleeding. However, the way Loras Tyrell mispronounces his own last name – “Tirill” – and Cat leaving Ned’s bones in the Tyrell camp are the mistakes that keep me up at night!

    Oh, and seriously folks. I hope Jacqen returns Needle to Arya because she didn’t have it with her when she escaped. *worried and concerned*

    Polliver has needle, he took it when they captured Yoren’s bunch.

  576. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    It occurred to me that perhaps since Talisa has no other family that we know of in Westeros, then she might actually attend the RW with Robb? Double tragic, but ups the drama as well.

  577. Veron trois rivières
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    New to this site and blogging so please excuse my blunders. I am a reader and a watcher. At first I was dissapointed by the differences but have come to realize that there is no way the series could deliver the book. So I am enjoying it for what it is. I am visiting Westeros for the third time and just started Storm of Swords. Though I do want to comment on “Cersie Power Play”. I will have to pull out the book but I thought it was Tommen that Tyrion threatened to hurt if anything happened to Ros/Alayaya. Well, anyway lovin my Sunday nights and hopefully, GRRM will get to the keys…PLEASE!

  578. caro herrera
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    overall i like the KL stuff very much, and jaime/brienne, and maybe even asha for the first time :)
    still, even if it had some great acting, i can’t wait along with the rest of the world for the BLACKWATER!!! & of course san/san ;p

  579. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Her little brother story. i dont buy it.
    she could still be a westerling.

  580. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman,

    Mister cogman you know we do that cause we love you guys giving us the show.

  581. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    .Not enough time, not enough money, not enough cohesion with the writers, a rushed post production and too strong a focus on spectacle and CGI (the Blackwater, dragons, Direwolves, smoke monsters). Maybe HBO will agree to more episodes in season 4 or allot several more for season 3.

    Hear hear, I’ve been saying this for a while (and so have you but mb I didn’t see it put so plainly ’till now)

    For me season 2 has been a let down for all the reasons you mentioned, but all the issues come from having to adapt too big a book in just 10 episodes. Being positive, next 2 seasons will probably be better. I don’t think we’ll get more than 10 episodes per season, but we’ll get more episodes per book so to speak….the pages per episode ratio will be lower, wich is what the show needs imo.

    PS: Btw the non-readers I’ve been talking too like this season more than the first, so we need not to worry for the shows succes. And we’ll always have the books ;)

  582. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Well, Karstark may have agreed reluctantly to wait until Robb’s return to execute Jaime, but as we saw quite clearly on the show last week, everyone in Robb’s camp was getting drunk, rowdy and ready for a lynching. Brienne specifically tells Catelyn that Jaime will not last the night in captivity (indeed, one of the posters here speculated that Jaime was trying to get himself killed in the whole escape attempt anyway) and further states that no one in Robb’s camp is going to fight a fellow Stark-ite to defend Jaime Lannister. So I think her motivation for releasing Jaime on the slender hope that Tyrion will keep his word and release her daughters once he has his brother back is clear and compelling. A dead Jaime is no good to Robb (his value as a hostage seriously declines!) and moreover will undoubtedly result in a dead Sansa and, as Catelyn thinks, a dead Arya.

    As for everyone who insists that somehow her decision is more understandable in the books because she believes Bran and Rickon are dead before she releases Jaime – well, again, in the show, they established that someone was going to kill Jaime before morning (again, resulting in dead daughters for Catelyn), and I think Catelyn cares about her daughters regardless of whether she believes her sons to be alive or not. The only thing is that I wish she had TOLD Robb this instead of not mentioning the fact at all.

    As to your other point about the jailer, this is totally a quibble that I agree with – the problem with eliminating Riverrun and having Jaime in Robb’s camp is that in Riverrun, Catelyn Tully is Hoster Tully’s daughter, and the people of Riverrun are used to doing her bidding. I’m not so sure that holds true for the random Northern bannermen who may be loyal to Catelyn’s late husband or to her son, but have no history of loyalty to Catelyn and her family. This also created the issue with where the heck Jaime and Brienne got the boat. It’s another example of how eliminating one detail in the puzzle creates a problem for all the other details.

  583. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Is not that I don’t enjoy the show mind you, but if season 1 was an A, I’d give season 2 a B- till now, hoping it ends up being a B+ after the next 2 episodes ;)

  584. Vee
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    I really thought the interaction between Theon and Yara was played well. The look Theon gave her when she told him not to die so far from the sea was perfect. Alfie Allen has really stolen the show this season, IMO. Get that man an award, already.

    I completely agree. I feel like a broken record but Alfie Allen has been so effing good this season. When all is said and done, I think it’s his arc that will always be the highlight of Game of Thrones Season 2, at least for me personally. And I also thought the conversation with Yara was so well played – on both sides. During Yara’s speech, I found myself thinking of Asha’s shocked “Theon?” in A Dance With Dragons.

    WompWomp:
    I’m not a huge Halfhand fan show-wise. They nailed the look and temperament, but I found his contradiction of Jon (who only tries to relate to whatever Quorin says) confusing and patronizing. Sure, Jon is an untried ranger, but Quorin seems to have no respect for him despite deigning to let Jon participate in the mission.

    I’ve commented a few times on how I like the changes they’ve made in Jon’s story, just from a “learning via hard lessons” standpoint (I find it a tad more believable for a green kid coming from a relatively sheltered life, as it provides room for character growth – you don’t learn if you don’t fuck up), but I would agree that the Halfhand has been a weak link for me. But I think that dynamic changed the minute Jon volunteered to go with Qhorin (in the show) versus Qhorin choosing Jon Snow for the mission (in the books). While Qhorin’s hard-ass reputation may have been a bit compromised on the show (being captured – which, as someone pointed out above, is interesting in and of itself), I don’t feel it necessarily compromises the gravity of what he orders, or how profoundly that will affect Jon. If anything, I think the current situation paints Qhorin a smidgen more diabolical than he was in the books, which kind of fits with a few other things they’ve dropped here and there in the Beyond-the-Wall storyline. But I agree – as it stands now, I need for something to happen in the next two episodes that opens Qhorin’s eyes to what may be special about Jon. And a Jon Snow money shot (sorry) includes Ghost and warging, IMO. I will be seriously astonished if they don’t go there before the end of the season.

    Re: Catelyn. I apologize to whoever brought this up above (as I forgot to open your comment in a tab for reference), but wondering why Catelyn wouldn’t tell Robb about how Jaime likely would not have survived if she had not freed him. First, I completely agree that it was established in last week’s episode that Jaime was unlikely to survive the night; the conversation between Cat and Brienne was definitely clear in that regard. For Robb to say Cat was responsible for sowing discontent in the camp was pretty bullshit, IMO; the discontent in regards to Jaime was already there. Sure, freeing Jaime didn’t help that, but I think Cat took a bullet there, or at least that was my interpretation. That said, if there’s not at least some follow-up in that regard (a conversation between Cat and Robb), I’ll be pretty disappointed as it does paint Cat in a one-dimensional light.

  585. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    I’m still holding out for that reveal. Why else mention the Crag at all? It can’t just be a nod to the fans.

  586. Orp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    I’ve discussed this on other comment boards and i’ll be more suprised if Dagmer isn’t Ramsay at the moment. They’ve set this up perfectly to streamline him for the tv constraints and still make him a sadistic sneak. With the sacking almost certainly happening and the only personal betrayal potential for Theon that they’ve set up is the one with Dagmer, you’d think it would either be that or Dagmer and the troops betray Theon to the guys outside. I’d of also rather had Ros come back to Winterfell and play the part of Theon’s bed warmer rather than Cersei’s mistake.

    If you look, Roose and Dagmer/Ramsay are playing their roles very similarly.

  587. Knurk
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Ugh, very anti-climactic episode. Arya was a star this season and again they fucked up her escape, just like last year’s ‘stable boy’ debacle. Kingslayer and Brienne weren’t that impressive yet, Jaime rattling up too many lines in a couple of seconds, and then you have the 30-minute Talisa monologue, boooooooooring. Robb doesn’t need a sad story to want to bang her, come on!

    Nothing really worked this week. When I was thinking D&D were doing some smart writing this season with Halfhand manipulating Jon, and Tywin knowing Arya is a spy, all that went to the bin this week and we were spoonfed some stupid storylines.

    One last nibble is the lack of Bran&Rickon news arriving at Robb’s camp. Last year’s scenes with Robb and Cat handling the news of Ned’s death were very emotional, yet this year it seems they want to shy away from that, do they have something in store for us? I can’t think of anything. And now Robb betraying Walder Frey and Catelyn releasing Jaime lack a certain emotional background that could have worked so well on screen. Now non-readers are saying: what the fuck are those 2 doing?

  588. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Vee,

    As mixed as my feelings are concerning Jon’s arc, I’m sure non-readers are getting more out of it than I am. I’m grooving on most of the arcs, but Jon and Dany’s are the runts of the bunch if I had to name any. I have confidence Jon’s reckoning will be done justice. I’m just not sold on the Halfhand’s mercurial dialogue.

    Also, Rattleshirt was RIGHT behind him when he filled Jon in. If they had more distance, maybe I’d buy it. Otherwise, Rattleshirt’s half-deaf.

  589. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Orp,

    As intriguing as it is, I have a tough time buying this theory. How and why would Ramsay be on the Iron Islands at all? He’s clever under duress or in his twisted pursuit of pleasure, but neither he nor Bolton play a game that long or elaborate.

  590. Hags
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Whoever came up with The Two and a Halfman spinoff, I concur.

  591. Meg
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Knurk: And now Robb betraying Walder Frey

    That hasn’t happened yet.

    Knurk: Robb doesn’t need a sad story to want to bang her, come on!

    Word.

  592. Arrogant Bastard
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Orp,

    But that makes no sense. Dagmer is about the same age as Roose, so he can’t really be his son. And why would Roose’s bastard son be living in the Iron Islands for several years? On the offchance that he could infiltrate the Ironborn if they invaded the North? Very unlikely.

  593. Knurk
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Knurk:
    Ugh, very anti-climactic episode. Arya was a star this season and again they fucked up her escape, just like last year’s ‘stable boy’ debacle. Kingslayer and Brienne weren’t that impressive yet, Jaime rattling up too many lines in a couple of seconds, and then you have the 30-minute Talisa monologue, boooooooooring. Robb doesn’t need a sad story to want to bang her, come on!

    Nothing really worked this week. When I was thinking D&D were doing some smart writing this season with Halfhand manipulating Jon, and Tywin knowing Arya is a spy, all that went to the bin this week and we were spoonfed some stupid storylines.

    One last nibble is the lack of Bran&Rickon news arriving at Robb’s camp. Last year’s scenes with Robb and Cat handling the news of Ned’s death were very emotional, yet this year it seems they want to shy away from that, do they have something in store for us? I can’t think of anything. And now Robb betraying Walder Frey and Catelyn releasing Jaime lack a certain emotional background that could have worked so well on screen. Now non-readers are saying: what the fuck are those 2 doing?

    reading my comment back I come off as a complete sour nerd, blegh. Sorry for that people. And I just realized Tywin is misinforming Arya, duh. I really need to wait a little bit before starting to vent.

    Meg: That hasn’t happened yet.

    woops, you’re right. I do wonder if they’re going to implement the ‘marriage’ storyline this season or the next. It’ll come off quite clumsy on screen I reckon.

  594. Vee
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Vee,
    Also, Rattleshirt was RIGHT behind him when he filled Jon in. If they had more distance, maybe I’d buy it. Otherwise, Rattleshirt’s half-deaf.

    Well, with that giant’s skull and the racket he makes… ;) Okay, kidding aside, I get the complaint.

  595. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Vee,

    Haha, for real, though. They were all close enough to be kids on a rope!

  596. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    Knurk: Robb doesn’t need a sad story to want to bang her, come on!

    O_o what? how about getting to know her and all these stupid things people need to know about someone they like? all bullshit? It´s a sad story yes (and probably a lie) but still.
    How is it bullshit listen to a girl before you bang her? it is not kind of polite to do just that? Wow! I mean, basic manners before you “grab” someone? No? that´s too lame?

  597. Lina
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    Arrogant Bastard:
    Orp,

    But that makes no sense. Dagmer is about the same age as Roose, so he can’t really be his son. And why would Roose’s bastard son be living in the Iron Islands for several years? On the offchance that he could infiltrate the Ironborn if they invaded the North? Very unlikely.

    I’m with you. I just don’t think there’s enough time for Ramsay to pull the long con. It would mean that he and Roose would have had an incredible amount of foresight in anticipating that: (1) Robb would send Theon to ask Balon’s help; (2) Balon would shun him and maintain Asha as his heir; (3) Theon would turn on the Starks; and (4) be given a ship to command. Also, all of this would be dependent on the notion that an outsider could stroll into the Iron Islands, effectively pose as an Ironborn, and rise to some role of power.

  598. Rygar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe that Stannis is not a cat person. D&D have gone too far!

  599. Knurk
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    lol, yes that was phrased… poorly by me (and you are right to chastize me there!). But that scene just annoyed the shit out of me. I was very glad to hear they were going to expand Robb’s storyline with Jeyne this year because I thought it was a very bad plotdevice in the book. Sadly D&D also don’t know how to make this a believable relationship, with Talisa constantly interrupting important warcouncils and a ridiculous long boring story before a sexscene. If you can’t come up with something decent, just let the girl seduce Robb. And this she obviously doesn’t have to do because all men are shallow and when someone like Oona Chaplin blinks here eyes 99% of the men will want to sleep with her.

    On a different note, the scene between Stannis and Davos was bloody awesome.

  600. Daniel Griffin
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    WHERE IS THE CHAIN?!

  601. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Daniel Griffin,

    I suspect someone may have left it in ACOK. Don’t worry though, things will work out just fine. :)

  602. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria,

    Totally disagree with you about ASOS and Dany. She has the best storyline in there by far, the Unsullied, the reveal of a great knight, all of it was fantastic. We must be reading different books.

  603. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    haha ok, I did understand what you mean but had to say it. I was worried about you! It wasn´t annoying for me but I don´t quite understand yet this thing with Talisa and I´m puzzled about it. I like the character and the actress, though.
    Yes there were many good scenes. Stannis always makes me laugh, even when he talks about eating cats.

  604. Rygar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    The cat eating scene was the best. “Dogs, I like dogs, they are loyal, we ate them too”. Lol. Dillane delivered it perfectly.

  605. Knurk
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    I’d totally eat cats before dogs too, bloody disloyal animals.

  606. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    I’ve known some cool cats in my time, but they are so… well, overall, cats are better at being individuals, which can make them endearing or quite the opposite. I’ve met some unpleasant cats too. Either way, I don’t think they’d taste as good as a dog. I just imagine cats tasting bitter. I wouldn’t want to try either. Survivor made rats look appetizing, though. [laughs]

    I’m more of a fan of Robb-Talisa, though I’m hoping for the Westerling reveal soon. That charade has gone on too long. It better be a charade. Also, as cheesy as was to you and a good number of others, it was more fitting than them just crashing down in a steaming pile of lust.

    I do agree though, her constant interruptions are hard to buy. Not so much as a Stark guard peeping in to announce her arrival into the tent. Maybe word’s got around that Robb’s got eyes for her, but still. Protocol, Robb! You’re a king! Her meeting pop-ins are also garnering unwanted attention from Bolton. So creepy, unnecessary, and pushing in terms of believability.

    All the same, I thought the love scene was one of the most tender I’ve seen. I loved how she couldn’t contain her happiness and gave out that laugh. We can argue back and forth about their chemistry, but when you can share that kind of joy with someone, it’s so much more memorable than plain lust.

    Rygar,

    I heartily second that. I don’t think he’s had a scene that fun since the letter in “The North Remembers.” [laughs]

  607. DH87
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: As to your second point, that is a nice catch. Another example where making small changes can cause inconsistencies later on, if the writers are not careful.

    I took that issue as being addressed by Tyrion’s quote that you rent whores, you don’t buy them: he doesn’t want “Ros” killed/injured (and for the sake of argument let’s assume both he and Cersei knew Ros was the punisher, not the punished, in Joffrey’s room) but he doesn’t mind if she plies her trade. As the pimp said of his favorite employee, just because you love your pony doesn’t mean you won’t sell rides on it if the price is right. (Now who can resist logic like that?)

  608. the goat
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz:
    @one more thing about TalisaBrian Juergens

    said it best:
    Connecticut Girl in the Peace Corps
    that seems very unlike “a song of ice and fire” for me.
    Or is she lying…

    They have slaves in Connecticut?

    The Goat:
    OK….I have to say…loved the Jaquen scenes, they were really well done.I also was a big fan of the Tyrion and Cersei scene where they captured Ros.

    Hey, get your own name!

  609. Mirax
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    I loved the episode! I’ve read a number of reviewers claiming nothing happened, but both my boyfriend and I had the usual reaction of disbelief that it was already over so quickly. It may not have been action-packed, and I do think they could have either left Dany out or given us the House of the Undying, but overall one of my favorite episodes of the season. :)

  610. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Vee: Well, with that giant’s skull and the racket he makes… ;)Okay, kidding aside, I get the complaint.

    All Rattleshirt can hear is…clack clack click clack…(dem bones dem bones) : – )

  611. WildSeed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    After reading 5 Epic ASOIAF books, I knew that my expectations could be in the way
    as a GoT viewer. For the last 3 episodes I have watched these GoT actors enrich
    and expand the ASOIAF characters. All were well portrayed and connected. Notably
    Alfie whom portrays Theon and Peter Dinklage as Tyrion. I read a lot of thumbs up
    for the Robb-Talisa sex scenes ( she is a quite a beautiful woman) and a few nods
    to Tyrion ( his scenes with Shae were profound and lovely in my opinion). The
    Leech Lord proved his scenes along with Catelyn and Brienne and Sam Tarley,
    but it was the Wildling scenes that continue to disappoint . Kit has Jon Snow’s
    looks but his lines are too short or there isn’t enough flow for what happened in the
    Frostfangs. We have a brief encounter with Qhorin Halfhand with no time to
    remind Jon of his vows or the impact of being a dual spy to further the cause of
    toppling their leader Mance Rayder. I know Qhorin rushed some thought provoking
    words at him before mock pushing him downhill, but the scene was lacking something.
    Similarly Jon has been looking dumbstruck lately and as a TV viewer I would be hard
    pressed to buy his ” I’m all aboard ” attitude to what Qhorin verbalizes in a whisper.
    Even in the books some clarification for young Jon’s sake was warranted . I don’t
    want to admit it but I actually gushed to see RattelShirt ( Lord of Bones). The scene
    with Asha-Yarra at Winterfell with stubborn Theon made my eyes get damp. I know
    there are a lot of Theon-Reek haters out there but this scene had me seeing him in
    a different light.

  612. WildSeed
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Oh and yes, Big disappointment with Ghost not being the revealer of the Cloak an Dragon Glass.I really like Grenn but… why? Where is Ghost anyway if not with the Nightwatch
    Brothers… wandering?

  613. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Eric Niewohner,

    Yeah, I think I had forgotten some of her ASOS stuff. The Unsullied bits are great, and the resolution of that storyline is also great. ASOS is my favorite book in the series, so Dany has a lot to compete with, but I stand corrected: there are cool things going on.

  614. andrea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    you savage! let me know how well you digest hairballs.

  615. oh-bb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    You need to be writing the essays! You have a wonderful grasp on the best parts and the missteps in the show.

  616. WompWomp
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    God, I can’t agree more on Yara-Theon. I mean, I wouldn’t have guessed that would come after her confession that she wanted to strangle him as an infant. And her empathy regarding their father suggests she didn’t exactly live it up as daddy’s little boy-by-default. It brings me back to the emotions on display in Theon’s awesome scene with Balon (“You gave me away! Your last boy!”), and Yara basically tells us she also lived with the pride-crushing legacy of her father’s defeat as his surrogate son.

    So Gemma Whelan, you have defied my expectations and essentially redefined your book counterpart for me. Well done. I couldn’t have imagined it happening when WiC posted your face on the front page, cute as a button.

    Alfie Allen is also a real standout. From his time on Pyke to the capture of Winterfell, he has delivered one of THE most convincing performances of the entire cast this season.

  617. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Talissa is the new Ros: I cringe every time she appears on screen.

  618. oh-bb
    Posted May 21, 2012 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    As for everyone who insists that somehow her decision is more understandable in the books because she believes Bran and Rickon are dead before she releases Jaime – well, again, in the show, they established that someone was going to kill Jaime before morning (again, resulting in dead daughters for Catelyn), and I think Catelyn cares about her daughters regardless of whether she believes her sons to be alive or not. The only thing is that I wish she had TOLD Robb this instead of not mentioning the fact at all.

    I was waiting/hoping for that, too, but then again, he kept cutting her off and did not give her a chance to speak. I assume we’ll see them have that discussion later, and that’s when we’ll find out she made Jaime swear an oath.

  619. Arthur
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    Dude…

    Don’t even compare her to Ros!

    That is just so wrong… Lol

  620. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Not nearly as wrong as some posters dubbing her the Jar Jar Binks of GoT. That was just insulting. [laughs]

  621. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:

    WompWomp: Asha came off as a bit more sexualized than she needed to be in the books, particularly ADWD

    Really? What does “more sexualized than she needed to be” mean? Have you ever said that about Tyrion? I imagine George thinks Asha is as sexualized as she is, no more and no less.

    Why do so many people view sex as an element that should only be necessary, whether in a narrative or particularly for a female character? OMG, a woman liking sex and thinking about it and acting on it!

  622. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Alan,

    It was more difficult for me to comprehend the strength and significance of her relationships. Tyrion’s relationship with sex is a lot more defined and telling. I just couldn’t care as much about Asha’s coupling in ADWD. It’s probably because I can’t relate to her as much or know as much about her. It’s how I felt about Cersei’s lesbian tryst in AFFC, just gratuitous, biding time. I’ll freely admit my opinion is subjective and nothing near enforceable fact. I’d be curious to hear a woman’s impressions of these characters and their relationships. I know Tyrion’s Shae-nanigans could come across as just as gratuitous and groan-worthy to the right person, but in his case it just unearthed and exposed the little boy inside the dwarf who cast a large shadow in the capital. Book-Shae was the ultimate peasant-next-door to me, as much the embodiment and symbol of Tyrion’s lingering immaturity and unrequited desires as she was a character.

  623. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Robb doesn’t need a sad story to want to bang her, come on!

    Apparently, you did find the story boring because I’m not sure how that can be considered a sad story. It is an inspiring story but not sad. A girl seeing a slave save the life of her brother, who she thought was dead, leading her to become a person who wants to help others and leave her home because of the slave trade. What is sad about that?

  624. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea:
    Talissa is the new Ros: I cringe every time she appears on screen.

    Honestly, she’s worse than Ros (this season), for me.

  625. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Score one for the nerds who were harassing Bryan Cogman so much that he took down his twitter account. It is beyond me the hate and vitriol that is spewed out by book readers.

    To Bryan Cogman, you are fantastic. The show is fantastic. The haters annoy me so I can sympathize with what it must feel like for you after devoting so much time and effort into giving us a fantastic show. Really, it is one of the best shows to grace tv. It’s so good that I hadn’t read the books until the show inspired me to read them all after about 4 episodes into season 1. Now I know pretty much every crazy theory there is about this world. Keep doing what you’re doing, which I know you will, and ignore the pretentious book nerds.

  626. Eric Niewohner
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    It seems there are more complaints for this episode than any other this season. I get some of the complaints because they made changes but changes have to be made, cuts have to be made, characters have to be cut it is what happens when you adapt a massive book series to TV. Even if they had the time and money I don’t think I would want to watch a blow by blow series that mimiced the books. While I love the series Martin has made mistakes and they are cattching up to him in books four and five.

    These next comments are meant specifically for the constant whiners and complainers. From a show pesspective there is nothing better on TV right now, not the level of acting. We get to see one of the best fantasy series of all time get on TV and some of you just bitch and moan every week. Don’t mind a complaint or two because the show isn’t perfect and some of the choices D&D make we are not going to like, but if you really are so upset with the show and are never going to watch again why take the time or effort to come here and bitch about it? If the show has disappointed you that badly why waste your precious time coming to a site where over 95% of the posters love the show and whine like a ten year old. Is it because that is what you like to do in your life in general, complain, bitch, moan, gnash your teeth and wish that tings would go exactly the way you want them to go? Time to grow up people and accept the fact that these are not the books they are an adaptation of the books and you are not the ones adapting them. D&D had the balls and the skill to actually convince HBO to do this show and believe me it was no easy sell. It was their brains, their passion to pushed this series forward and their ability to make a really good pilot episode that sold it. So for all of you chronic whiners if you really want to be in control of something then pursue that dream. Otherwise spare us your constant bitchfest.

    The show is great and while this was not my favorite episode it continues to amaze me every week.

  627. Orp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    WompWomp + Arrogant Bastard + Lina

    How and why would Ramsay be on the Iron Islands at all? He’s clever under duress or in his twisted pursuit of pleasure, but neither he nor Bolton play a game that long or elaborate.

    Cause daddy Bolton told him to follow him the minute he left the Stark host. The Winterfell occupation suggestion from Dagmer/Ramsay would then either be streamlined as Roose’s plan to have a foothold in Winterfell so he can be in a powerful position if Robb fucked up or just Ramsay’s sociopathic tendancies. They are going to great lengths to mention the ‘Bastard of Bolton’ coming and also to have ‘Dagmer’ not interact with the rest of the Ironborn. The only other answer on Dagmer’s role on a personal level leading to the sacking of Winterfell is in the ‘his men will betray him’ line, in which case Dagmer will give him up to the troops outside, but to me this seems the least likely of the two at the moment, but also possible.

    Dagmer is about the same age as Roose, so he can’t really be his son. And why would Roose’s bastard son be living in the Iron Islands for several years? On the offchance that he could infiltrate the Ironborn if they invaded the North? Very unlikely.

    Dagmer could get away with mid 30′s and Roose could get away with mid 50′s easily. Again, none of the Ironborn interact with ‘Dagmer.’ and there’s been no talk of him being on that island for years at all. Theon hasn’t a clue who he is when they first meet and they are playing it like he is ‘Dagmer’s’ puppet at every step.

    (1) Robb would send Theon to ask Balon’s help; (2) Balon would shun him and maintain Asha as his heir; (3) Theon would turn on the Starks; and (4) be given a ship to command.

    They can just play it that Roose wanted his finger in every pie so that he can weigh his options. The son of the Lord of one of the most powerful fleets in the Kingdoms is going to discuss an alliance, it’s not far fetched to believe that Roose would want a primary source of information to that. The minute he hears Winterfell has been taken he’s immediately offering the option up to send his troops into there to occupy.

  628. GrzebykK
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon:
    DB:
    Lea,
    Holy… how did I miss that? Damn, if that’s not inconsistency I don’t know what is… it’s just like wtf are you even paying attention to your own writing at all at this point?

    Again, I’d have to hear the quote in context, but he may have meant it in an ironic way: “I’d sacrifice myself to a god I don’t even believe in…”

    For me Karstark talking about Father was a mistake rather. We can believe that every word is guarded and censored by D&D or Bryan Cogman or someone else, but truth is, writers are just men and guardians are men, too.
    So Seven happened.

  629. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    the goat,

    it is not so much about the slaves as it is about her being a rich girl you ran away from home. how very 20th century but unlikly for volantis.
    didnt herr parents try to stop her? Where did she get the money for the trip?

  630. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman twitter is down? Oh come on guys!
    why can people voice their critic without hate?

  631. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:25 am | Permalink

    Well, this episode did improve a bit on my re-watch. Still one of the weaker ones this season IMO, but slightly better than on first viewing.

  632. WildSeed
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Asha-Yara said to Theon” we both loved our mother and we both tolerated our father”
    then gave us a verbal illustration from a child girl’s impression taking note of her
    cranky infant brother. This least talked about actress nailed that scene. I’ll take
    more thought provoking delivery over T&A anytime. Glad to see that Alfie has
    some praise. It’s hard to believe that the season is almost over, ‘m still greedy for more.

  633. WildSeed
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    WiC, I forget, were any characters besides Bran able to have warg dreams
    ( re: sample scripts posted before start of s2 ) ? Do you think Benioff & Comp
    will allow it s3 ? I hope too that Ghost will be given more time with his wandering
    and/or links with Jon.

  634. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:39 am | Permalink

    Broadly speaking, I found that this episode had many well-written and enjoyable scenes. I really liked the scenes with Varys and actually found Talisa’s story about her brother to be her first really well-written piece of dialogue. However, I think that the episode could have done a better job of building up a sense of frantic danger and anticipation before Blackwater.

    I do not understand why the decision was made to have Cat release Jaime and Robb sleep with his ladylove before finding out about the deaths of Bran and Rickon. I think that was a huge mistake, as it breaks a link in the chain of tragic inevitability of various events in the series. If anyone is wondering what I mean by this, allow me to explain. In a properly-written tragedy, it is hard to say where things first started to go wrong. Everything seems to be a necessary consequence from some previous event. The people involved (villains, heroes, and everything in between) are, in many ways, prisoners of the past. If Robb strays from a betrothal vow and Catelyn frees Jaime, it is because they are consumed by grief at the vicious murder of the two youngest Stark children. If Theon kills two innocent children, it is because he feels he has to look strong in front of his men or lose his only chance at being seen as a tough and fearless raider; he cannot show any signs of reluctance when dealing bloodshed to the Starks or the Ironborn will think that he really has become a Stark during his captivity. If Theon is taken captive as a child, it is because these conventions are established in society as the appropriate response to rebellion, and if the Ironborn rebelled it was not a strange thing for a house of raiders to do when the kingdoms previously united under the Targaryens pass under the control of the Baratheons, a house they are more likely to see as their equal than their superior. And as for why the Baratheons took control… Etc, etc. Each action flows inevitably from the past and onwards to the future. I really feel as if breaking that chain of tragedy has diminished the narrative strength of the whole series. I am not closed to the possibility that the writers will make up for it in some way, perhaps even making a substitution that surpasses the original, but at this moment in time I don’t see how such a thing would be done.

  635. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney:
    I do not understand why the decision was made to have Cat release Jaime and Robb sleep with his ladylove before finding out about the deaths of Bran and Rickon.I think that was a huge mistake, as it breaks a link in the chain of tragic inevitability of various events in the series. If anyone is wondering what I mean by this, allow me to explain. In a properly-written tragedy, it is hard to say where things first started to go wrong. Everything seems to be a necessary consequence from some previous event.The people involved (villains, heroes, and everything in between) are, in many ways, prisoners of the past.

    Very interesting point.

    Seems like one of the weirder changes, IMO, and I wonder if we’ll ever understand why they did it.

  636. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney: I do not understand why the decision was made to have Cat release Jaime and Robb sleep with his ladylove before finding out about the deaths of Bran and Rickon. I think that was a huge mistake, as it breaks a link in the chain of tragic inevitability of various events in the series. If anyone is wondering what I mean by this, allow me to explain. In a properly-written tragedy, it is hard to say where things first started to go wrong. Everything seems to be a necessary consequence from some previous event. The people involved (villains, heroes, and everything in between) are, in many ways, prisoners of the past.

    +1. Excellent comment.

  637. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Really liked this episode except the Robb scene.
    Robb should be hurt after the battle at the crag, he should have received news that his brothers are dead and he should be treated by Talissa/Jeyne, it’s only for all these reasons that he is alone with her and that he succombs to temptation. It’s a mistake but he had some excuses, as it is in the show, Robb is just weak with no sense of honor whatsoever, i just don’t care about him at all he is a “good guy” with no good guy’s qualities, he choose willingly to sacrifice his war effort just so he could shove his prick. They managed to make me care less about a character that they show more than the books.
    Didn’t read all the comments, will do later, so don’t get mad if someone already said something along those lines.
    I was fine with nearly all the changes made up until now, i hope it’s just a passing misstep and not a trend.

  638. Udi
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Very disappointed by this episode. Yes, it’s the calm before the storm and yes there were good interactions between many of the characters. The acting is, as always, superb.
    Still, extremely underwhelming episode 8 with lots of things I lament, small and not so small.
    1) My main disappointment is that Cat didn’t receive word of the death of the boys. That could have been so dramatic and left the non-readers still in the dark as to whether the burnt corpses are in fact those of Bran and Rickon.
    2) No weasel soup and no Arya badassery at all. No more Arya-Tywin moments from now on
    3) No Hotu this episode. Guess it will be in ep 10
    4) No Ghost. Grenn finds the dragonglass. Jon and Halfhand moment also delayed…
    5) Agree with WiC on the sex scene. Didn’t want them to have sex, doesn’t make sense and that whole scene was way too long imo
    6) No Tyrion badassery in preparing for the battle. No Chain, no soldiers directed to practice flinging Wildfire, etc
    7) No Ramsey Snow / Reek
    I know it’s impossible to totally put the books aside and just judge this as a separate “entity” but many non-readers for sure are just as disappointed by this episode as many book-readers are. Oh well, ep. 9 and 10 should more than make up for it.

  639. Steve Westenra
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    I really enjoyed this episode! I thought the decision for Cat and Robb not to be told of Bran and Rickon’s deaths was a bit strange, and made Catelyn seem much weaker and their storyline much less tragic (it also could have been a good push to having Robb end up with Talisa, as he would have been in an emotionally compromised situation to an even greater extent, and she could have offered that story about her brother to show she understood).
    I’m not sure why people think Talisa can’t still be Jeyne. I think she probably does have connections to the Lannisters/her backstory from the books and just transposed her story about her brother from a Westerosi location to a foreign one. She probably just made up the stuff about slave cities, as otherwise Robb would have asked why she left Volantis.
    Apologies if someone pointed this out already, but I couldn’t wade through the comments and wanted to add my thoughts to the mudpile. ;p

    I loved loved LOVED Jaime and Brienne (I formally eat my hat when it comes to me concerns about Gwendoline) and thought the Tyrion scenes were some of his best. Generally, I loved all the scenes in this episode, and it went by far to quickly.
    Although I enjoyed Arya’s scenes with Tywin, I’m not digging how her development/storyline has changed. I think the people on Westeros were right when they said it takes a lot of the focus away from someone who is meant to be a main character, and stunts some of her development a bit. I’m sure in the end it will work out though.
    One of the best episodes of the season!

  640. tysnow
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    WoW! If it is true that the hate from book purists caused Cogman to take down twitter, I believe WiC needs to consider banning people that don;t talk reasonab;y and cognitively concerning the episodes.
    If these hard core purists can think for themselves they should have realized that no weasel soup was in the offering. Arya had become Tywin’s personal servant, thus they should have figured….
    1. She is not a kitchen maid, so no access to cooking.
    2. She is not hanging around the dining hall, where the men become use to her presence and serving them.
    3. She didn’t interact with the Harrehall men, therefore no WTF moment from soup.

    I believe they didn’t include the brutal cold hearted killing of the guard, because show Arya’s personality hasn’t developed to that point yet (as in the books) and normal HBO viewers would have viewed this as her turning down the dark path into a villain.

    I have no complaints over Talisa scenes, they were well written, acted and created emotion.
    So what about her tending to wounds, blah, blah, and Robb not knowing about Bran/Rickon.
    It is not a big deal (as some here believe)/
    If George has no problem with the changes, neither do I, and that should be the crux of the argument, afterall he is the creator of the books, not the readers.

  641. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Lex: Very interesting point.

    Ser Lurkalot: +1. Excellent comment.

    Thank you!

    tysnow:
    I believe WiC needs to consider banning people that don;t talk reasonab;y and cognitively concerning the episodes.
    [Snip for juxtaposition]
    So what about her tending to wounds, blah, blah

    You are entitled to like or dislike whatever you please, of course, but I don’t think your argument on the subject of this change is a paragon of reasonableness. Perhaps this is a case of “do as I say, not as I do”? In my opinion, everyone here is entitled to express their opinion, praising or criticising any given element in the show, as long as they don’t express themselves in a rude or offensive way.

  642. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    WompWomp: I do agree though, her constant interruptions are hard to buy. Not so much as a Stark guard peeping in to announce her arrival into the tent. Maybe word’s got around that Robb’s got eyes for her, but still. Protocol, Robb! You’re a king! Her meeting pop-ins are also garnering unwanted attention from Bolton. So creepy, unnecessary, and pushing in terms of believability.

    This could be redeemed if Talisa and Roose are already in cahoots with eachother and Bolton encourages Talisa walking into their meetings. Thanks to Kael for pointing that out to me.

  643. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Knurk: This could be redeemed if Talisa and Roose are already in cahoots with eachother and Bolton encourages Talisa walking into their meetings. Thanks to Kael for pointing that out to me.

    I was assuming that Robb called for her. Since she just appeared there without any reason at all, I thought the only explanation would be because Robb summoned her, presumably because he enjoys her company.

  644. Fran
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Much better episode than previous ones, especially the dreadful episodes 4, 6 and 7.

    Fortunatelly this one was much better written and directed and despite no happening much, the dialogues were fluid and interesting, making the episode fly by.

    Overall score :8/10

  645. ctfsh811
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Knurk,

    I like some of the points you’ve made. I was becoming increasingly disgusted with everyone’s absolute praise of this episode. Just the fact that Talisa walks in unannounced and interrupts a meeting between high lords for the second straight episode was enough to piss me off. Then we had to sit through her story. I guess its a good story, but is there really time for this? With the amount of scenes and characters that they’ve completely skipped over, it was very difficult for me to watch her go on and on. and although she is amazingly beautiful and a complete package of a woman…i dislike her….and do not look forward to seeing her on screen again.

  646. Winnie
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    So much hate for this episode, it makes me sad
    I am a new book reader, I loved the show first. Many people I know have discovered the brilliant book series because of this fantastic show. There is nothing like it on tv. Period.

    I just have two thoughts:

    1) Perhaps Jon’s story is being portrayed the way it has been on purpose. I think the writer(s) ( in some way) WANT the audience to question Jon’s motivation in joining the wildlings. The belief, that he is internally conflicted and not necessarily ONLY because of Qhorins direction to Jon, may be why the storyline has gone as such. I say this because friends of mine (know nothing but the show) believe Jon will join the wildlings more willingly because he questions his choices. Because he is “tempted”
    2) Rob’s hasty love story does make sense in my mind. He states essentially that his life is “shit” (betrayl by mother, brothers/sisters captive, blah blah blah) Rob acting on his urges seems to be his own form of rebellion in some way, although I don’t think he consciously recognizes it, maybe even indirectly against his mother. I personally enjoyed the scene, but I like it all! :)

    I remember an English teacher telling me, “always write as if your reader knows nothing”
    I think we assume the casual watcher of the show is privy to all the ins and outs, I don’t think that it the case. Non reader fans are having a different experience than book readers, probably a better one, because the show can just be enjoyed without going over it with a fine tooth comb. :)

  647. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Winnie: 1) Perhaps Jon’s story is being portrayed the way it has been on purpose. I think the writer(s) ( in some way) WANT the audience to question Jon’s motivation in joining the wildlings. The belief, that he is internally conflicted and not necessarily ONLY because of Qhorins direction to Jon, may be why the storyline has gone as such. I say this because friends of mine (know nothing but the show) believe Jon will join the wildlings more willingly because he questions his choices. Because he is “tempted”

    I’ve been thinking about this too, and it could make (book 3 spoilers) Jon’s escape from the Wildlings to save Castle Black more of a surprise for non-book readers.

  648. Shock Me
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    Daniel Griffin: a

    It is securing the cabinet containing the last peach in Westeros and is being guarded by the Reeds in Greywater Watch.

  649. freoduwebbe
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    WompWomp: I’m not a huge Halfhand fan show-wise. They nailed the look and temperament, but I found his contradiction of Jon (who only tries to relate to whatever Quorin says) confusing and patronizing. Sure, Jon is an untried ranger, but Quorin seems to have no respect for him despite deigning to let Jon participate in the mission.

    I love Qhorin… I saw that stuff as just ‘screw with the new guy’…. my husbands navy pals did that every time someone new came on the crew… you tell him to go get a bucket of ‘Relative Bearing Grease’, or six feet of chow line…. just something to do to pass the time… all kinds of shit ass things you do .. to the newbie

    I dont see the Nights Watch at being different.. you learn a LOT about how someone takes being the butt of a joke…

  650. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Fantastic episode.

    They finally gave us some more quality scenes with Varys and Tyrion.

    I hate to whinge but I really can’t get past Gemma as Yara/Asha, she just doesn’t fit the bill for me as the character. I won’t be looking forward to her scenes from AFFC.

  651. The Kindly Man
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Lex: Very interesting point.

    Seems like one of the weirder changes, IMO, and I wonder if we’ll ever understand why they did it.

    I do not think that it will matter at the end of the day. After all, it is a fictional world, so butterfly effects do not apply when a scene or two can resolve any disconnects.

    I am loving all these episodes, as much as I loved the books.

  652. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    freoduwebbe: I love Qhorin… I saw that stuff as just ‘screw with the new guy’…. my husbands navy pals did that every time someone new came on the crew…you tell him to go get a bucket of ‘Relative Bearing Grease’,or six feet of chow line….just something to do to pass the time… all kinds of shit ass things you do .. to the newbie

    I dont see the Nights Watch at being different.. you learn a LOT about how someone takes being the butt of a joke…

    lol, or a breastplate stretcher of course.

  653. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    I read the books years ago and got my daughter to watch last season and she hadn’t read the books. She was so hooked that she read them all between last season and this one. Her reactions to every episode and the changes are very positive. She loves it, I love it and we ARE SO HAPPY to have the privilege of seeing what the writers create with the source material!

  654. The Kindly Man
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz:
    Bryan Cogman twitter is down? Oh come on guys!
    why can people voice their critic without hate?

    Civility is a rare thing on the internet, unfortunately. In the “real world”, a lot of those commentators would be nursing bruises (or worse) based on their insolence, and would be begging for some Talisa attention.

  655. tysnow
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    I have a BIG question. Since Harrenhall is almost a weeks ride from K.L. and they specifically mention at the strategy meeting with Tywin in this past episode that Stannis is a day or two away from KL, Tywin cannot be present with the relief (as in the books).
    The jest I got he was going to attack Robb (a big change from the books). Did I make the proper conclusions from these events?

  656. AlexBaratheon
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    MattL86,

    darquemode,

    I understand where you guys are coming from.

    I just personally like to focus on whats there than whats not.

    Just my stray observation on the harping/negativity and what helps me keep my viewing fresh so that I don’t fall into the land of purity.

    Im also watching it with my roommate who hasnt read the books so its cool to watch it with new eyes which also helps me take the journey as if I’ve never read the books

    Anyway…Over and out

    AB

    PS Thanks ! :D

    Ed:
    Great post!

  657. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb: I was waiting/hoping for that, too, but then again, [Robb] kept cutting [Catelyn] off and did not give her a chance to speak. I assume we’ll see them have that discussion later, and that’s when we’ll find out she made Jaime swear an oath.

    Jaime’s told Cat quite clearly that he doesn’t feel honor-bound to any vow or oath he’s ever given. We didn’t see her make him swear an oath in the TV show because it would have just made her look even more foolish.

    As for not getting a word in edgewise, she’s been quite assertive in the past. The lack of passion in her own defense struck me as a little out of character. IMHO, it would have been more credible had we been shown more of her state of mind at the time.

  658. Shock Me
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    DavidBC: face

    I would LOVE for Maester Luwen to survive. But, I don’t think he would leave Winterfell until it burned down. He is a Maester of the Citadel sworn in service to the Lord of Winterfell. Although it would be quite dramatic for him to break his vow he might decide that since Theon is captured then Bran is once again Lord.

  659. Shock Me
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz:
    @Talisa

    Her baby brother story is strange.
    Why would her parents not take her to the wedding? you know looking for a match.
    Why would she and her brother go swimming alone? without servants? Did their parents not forbid them to leave their home?
    How did she run away from home? without help? did she steal money from her parents? how did she end up in westros? did her parents not send somebody after her? Why did she leave her baby brother alone at home?

    Either she is lying and Tywin’s creature
    or
    it is bad writing.

    Aryas stay in Harrenhal seems pointless, especially her scenes with Tywin(but yes they where fun). His character got fleshed out but she didnt become harder and stronger.

    Danys story is not what i expected.
    How does she fit into Daxos plots?
    My guess is that he traded the dragons in exchange for Pyat Pree help who is more interested in dany then ruling the city.
    still the plot feels unreal, rushed and danys speeches are starting to get old.

    I actually LOVED the drowning story because it was an answer to his question about how a high-born girl becomes a healer. None of the other questions you posed are critical to her answer to Robb’s question. Although, she could still be Tywin’s creature even if she was telling the truth, I don’t think she is lying about her brother. And she got to Westeros on a ship like everyone else does.

    I really enjoyed the Arya/Tywin scenes and Weasel Soup made no sense once Weasel (crying girl) was not cast. But the only purpose Harrenhal and the torturous trip to get there served in the books was to show Arya how much things can suck and that she should drop some of the illusions she still had. The rest of the problem is repeated by almost all other females in the HBO version: the women only have agency through their relationships with men. Hence we get no dead Northman Bolton Guard and in fact no Northmen captives at all and Roose stays glued to Robb’s side where the Greatjon should have been.

    As far as Daenerys goes your guess was explicitly stated in the meeting room by Daxos. The Dragons were given to the Warlocks for their help in assassinating 11 of the 13. The theft gives a pretext for a meeting on ground Daxos controls away from their normal guard forces. The Dragons in Warlock hands means Daeny has to go to the HOTU to get them back. When Daeny gets their the Warlocks hope to use her power to increase theirs by keeping her and the dragons alive forever in some sort of stasis.

  660. Shinyteapot
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m afraid I found this episode somewhat disappointing. I rewatched it hoping that once I knew what was coming I’d appreciate it more, but I didn’t.

    There were some great moments- all Tyrion’s scenes, Arya sadly watching Tywin leave- I got the impression she was going to miss him, but was also disappointed not to have killed him, Yara trying both the tough commander and caring sister routes to get through to Theon (and really selling both) and Jorah being quietly amazing- Dany gets annoying sometimes, but Jorah is never anything less than utterly convincing.

    I was disappointed with the lack of weasel soup and Arya’s escape, though the guards being dead in place was a nice touch. Not just because weasel soup is a great moment, but it makes Arya more passive. Book Arya is determined to free the northmen- not just herself- and comes up with important parts of the plan as well as being involved in carrying it out. And her calm killing of the guard on the way out was a notable moment in her character development that would have tied well with Jaime killing his guard ‘he was in my way’.

    I did love Jaquen’s hurt ‘please?’ and attempt at a sad puppy face (which really will not work on Arya) as well as her little shrug when her honour was questioned though. Would Ned be proud of his daughter’s survival or distraught?

    The changes to Jon’s storyline make Qhorin less impressive which is a shame. I can see the reasoning, but personally I liked the book story better. I hope rattleshirt will be as full of bluster as he is in the books. I have a feeling we won’t see any warging from Jon (or Arya) this year.

    The show actually gave Catelyn better justification for releasing Jaime. So why not have her mention it? He’s of no use to them dead. Of course she could simply have told Brienne to take him for a long walk and come back in two days when Robb would be back, but it’s still an improvement I think. But the lack of mentioning it is just daft.

    Oh and since when does a Karstark worship the seven?!

    Assuming Talisa is who she says she is and not concocting an elaborate lie (whatever the truth she knows a lot about Volantis), I can see why she was changed- it’s a chance to introduce more information about slavery and the free cities, and since Robb is older, having him fall for an independent and intelligent woman rather than a sweet girl (who may be just as smart, but we never find out) makes sense.

    What doesn’t work is the implication of that independence- Talisa is not beholden to Westerosi customs and has chosen to reject the life of a noble. So she can have a fling with Robb without having been ‘dishonoured’ and requiring marriage. Doesn’t mean Robb won’t prefer her, but he is choosing between love and his duty rather than putting her honour before his as in the books.

    Cersei knows Joffrey is all manner of trouble but that doesn’t mean she would be happy to see him hurt, he’s still her son. That came across better this week than last week I think. No surprise with Ros taking Alayaya’s role, though I think she should have been made up to look like she’d taken more of a beating. I always thought Tyrion meant his threat to Cersei. He wasn’t playing along so she wouldn’t go looking for Shae- he felt appaled at what had happened and really does feel sorry for Ros and wants to help her, and to take revenge for what Cersei has done. Liked the touch with the necklace that presumably was part of Ros’ payment back in the very first episode. Joffrey, at Cersei’s bidding, makes a big deal of giving such a necklace to Sansa. It probably insults Cersei terribly that Tyrion gives them to whores.

    Final note- the new mountain is just not imposing enough. His voice is great, but he doesn’t stand out physically despite being very tall. It should have been immediately obvious how ludicrous Tywin’s suggestion that Arya could stop him drinking when he wanted was!

    The costume and makeup teams have been brilliant in every other respect, but I can’t help feeling they could have done more to make this mountain look more muscular. Jason Momoa is a very strong and muscular guy to begin with- but Khal Drogo looked like he could juggle land rovers. The mountain needs something similar!

  661. Shinyteapot
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Additional- Tyrion said Joffrey is 17. That gives us a hint of how long events are taking in the show timeline (probably different to the books). In the very first episode, it was 17 years since the rebellion. The war must have lasted at least long enough for Jon to be conceived and born (whichever story you believe- if the dates didn’t fit no-one would believe Ned). Even if Cersei fell pregnant on her wedding night, she had a baby that died before Joffrey came along.

    It’s nothing definite- Catelyn wasn’t necessarily exact with ’17 years ago’ and Cersei’s first child could have been premature. But all this suggests that Joffrey can’t have been more than 15 at the start of series 1, and turned 17 in the first episode of series 2.

    I think this is a good thing- the actors will age along with the real world, so making the show timescale longer, even if it’s not obvious, is a good idea.

  662. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    If George has no problem with the changes, neither do I.

    This is such a common misconception, and this is not how it works. George does NOT approve the changes. He writes one episode per season, does some consulting, but they don’t even have to ask him for approval. He’s made it clear in interviews that he disagrees with some of the changes. So, saying “If George is okay with it, so am I,” is not a valid argument.

  663. tysnow
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    One reason I believe a change was made from Jeyne to Talisa is that with the creation of a character with such a dynamic actor (Oona), you can utilize her character down the road.
    We know Jeyne appears briefly in a few scenes then disappears from the story. By having the new Jeyne (Talisa) hail from Volantis, she can flee there (after u know what) and will reappear when Tyrion arrives at the city.

  664. tysnow
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    He’s made it clear in interviews that he disagrees with some of the changes

    Can you point me to an article, to use as ammunition, if this is the case. Because I always thought he was fine with any changes (knowing it necessitates when adapting to the screen).

  665. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Lex,

    Can you point me to an article, to use as ammunition, if this is the case. Because I always thought he was fine with any changes (knowing it necessitates when adapting to the screen).

    To be clear, yes GRRM understands that changes are necessary. He is fine with changes being made. But that doesn’t mean he has to personally agree with each change.

    I’ve heard him mention several things he disagrees with (the look of some of the sets, characters, etc.). If you listen to his commentary on the DVDs (Season 1, Episode 8), he specifically mentions a few changes that he disagreed with. But he’s always very professional about it, and I’m sure he keeps a lot of his opinions to himself.

    Here is a recent Thronecast interview where he mentions that the TV versions of Littlefinger, Shae, and Renly don’t match his own portrayal of those characters.

  666. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    George also talks about it around the 32 minute mark of this Google Authors interview, where he makes it clear that he signed a very clear contract, giving David Benioff and D.B. Weiss creative control and the power to make any changes they want (including adding UFOs and aliens if they want).

  667. Jen@House Stark
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    For the love of the Seven! There is more electricity between Jaime and Brienne than with Robb and Jeyne. Big downer.

  668. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin: Jaime’s told Cat quite clearly that he doesn’t feel honor-bound to any vow or oath he’s ever given. We didn’t see her make him swear an oath in the TV show because it would have just made her look even more foolish.

    OK, I STILL don’t see how Catelyn is foolish for intervening to prevent Jaime’s death. He is of no use to either Robb or his sisters’ safety if he’s dead. And perhaps the writing didn’t set that up well enough for you, but Brienne quite clearly told her that Jaime would die and that no one in Robb’s camp would risk their lives defending the Kingslayer. Basically, the only person who would is Brienne, because her loyalty is to Catelyn, and if Catelyn wants Jaime alive, she will die in his defence (but Brienne, awesome as she is, is one person. There’s no way she could hold off the lynch mob that wanted Jaime dead and would soon have done exactly that.)

    As for the vows, Catelyn thinks Jaime has shit for honor in the book, but she still makes him swear those vows on the off-chance that they mean something to him even in his fog of dishonor PLUS she knows they mean something to Brienne and possibly mean something to Tyrion. She is counting on Brienne and on Tyrion more than she is counting on Jaime – she knows that Brienne will stubbornly hold Jaime to the vows he’s sworn.

    And of course, those vows become part of Jaime’s potential change of heart after he loses his hand. At first he thinks about how amusing it would be to confound Catelyn’s expectations by holding to his vows, and then after he loses his hand, he actually becomes serious about them. How will Sansa Stark be Jaime’s “last chance for honor” if he never swore anything about her to her mother? Obviously, if you think he’s insincere in his desire to be more honorable, then he didn’t need to swear the vows, but unless the showrunners also believe this – and they may – then I think at some point they need to reference that this famously dishonorable man actually wants to honor vows he made.

    On the whole “everyone who doesn’t think this show is perfect is foolish because it’s the best show on TV right now” question – well, I think that’s highly questionable, to be honest. So far “Game of Thrones” reminds me of “Rome” – it’s got amazing production values, a fantastic cast who can sell stuff that might not otherwise work so well, and sometimes its let down by so-so writing (the Robb-Talisa stuff is definitely a miss, because she’s such a cliche! Oh, all the women of Westeros who feel oppressed by the constrictions of their social system had to do was hop on over by themselves to another continent and nothing could possibly go wrong? Good to know!) It’s NOT on the level of the really top-notch HBO shows of the past, nor is it, IMO, comparable to something like “Breaking Bad” where the writing is as stellar as the acting. It’s a good show, but to keep calling it “best ever” means that we’re not allowing for the possibility that it might get even better over time.

  669. tysnow
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Thanks for the links Lex

  670. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    (the Robb-Talisa stuff is definitely a miss, because she’s such a cliche! Oh, all the women of Westeros who feel oppressed by the constrictions of their social system had to do was hop on over by themselves to another continent and nothing could possibly go wrong? Good to know!)

    First off, it wasn’t that she felt oppressed by the constrictions of her social system. If you are going to mock their writing you should at least tell the same story they did. She was inspired because a slave would risk his life by pushing her out of the way to do the right thing by trying to save a child’s life. Seeing this noble act from a slave who owed her and her brother nothing, if not outright animosity, changed her. If a slave would risk his life for such a selfless act then surely she could be brave enough to do more than just waste her life planning masquerades. This singular event also influenced her to withdraw all support for slavery, something that she had been brought up to accept as normal. The way you describe it people could come away thinking she just fled because she couldn’t marry who she wanted.

    Secondly, nowhere in her story are we told that she just hopped over to Westeros and nothing bad happened along the way. You made that up in your head. So if her story sounds cliche to you maybe it is because you are making up a background for her that no one else is privy to since it exists only in your head as far as I know.

  671. Cary Bass
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    (Sorry if this has been covered in the above comments, but it seems there’s a lot to read through and I just wanted to add my response).

    I never got the feeling reading the book that Robb was all that worried about breaking his commitment to marry the Frey girl. It seemed to me in the book to be very matter-of-fact, “Oh well, Mom, looks like I’m married now, ho hum, we’ll deal with it.” In that respect, his behavior here is very much like my experience of him in the book.

  672. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Dan, slavery is not a constriction of the Volantene social system? I’m saying that apparently Talisa found it easy to leave the society that she disapproved of – obviously there’s no slavery in Westeros but there is plenty of oppression that Westerosi women have to put up with because they are Martin’s far more realistic creations rather than the showrunners’ Fantasy Cliche Everywoman. Talisa rings jarringly false in comparison to Martin’s major female characters; compare her to Brienne (or Catelyn or Cersei) who are all three dimensional people (though Show Catelyn is less complex to be sure) or even Ygritte and Gilly and she looks like someone from a very different series.

    And nothing bad has happened to a young single attractive woman without anyone to protect her in a country engaged in a civil war because why wouldn’t she have mentioned that to Robb? As far as I know there’s no Westeros equivalent of the Red Cross and neutral medical personnel. I find it astonishing that she hasn’t at least faced the threat of rape by someone.

    In short, as lovely as Oona Chaplin may be, I find the character poorly conceived and written. And I’m not just saying this as a demonized “purist” (which isn’t even the case but no doubt I’ll be accused of this!) I have plenty of friends who haven’t read the books and who generally like the show who find Talisa annoying and/or boring and Robb’s dalliance with her both telegraphed and uninteresting.

  673. Lazlo Woodbine
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    I very much enjoyed this episode. One of the reasons I loved the books is that GRRM takes time to build tension, and this episode sure as hell did that. The episodes I enjoy most are the ones with plenty of humour to balance out the misery suffering, and this one had some great Tyrion scenes. Hot Pie always makes me chuckle too. Oh and the Jaime/Brienne scene was fried gold!

    Talisa seems pretty believable to me, and I can see why Robb would be attracted to her. She’s probably the most fanciable of the female characters on the show in my opinion.

    Jon does appear to be pretty stupid in this adaptation, but I had a similar impression at this stage while reading the books.

    Dany’s scenes are moving pretty slowly. I’d have been happy to give her a miss for an episode and just go straight to the House of Undying. Having said that, Iain Glen is a tremendous actor and always worth watching.

    A shame we never had weasel soup, which was one of my favourite parts of the novels, but the Arya/Tywin scenes have been really interesting to watch.

    It was nice to see Maester Luwin figuring out that Bran and Rickon are still alive. He’s another wonderful actor, and is really bringing the role to life. So much so that I hope he survives the series and lives to take the Stark boys north with Osha. Unlikely though I know it probably is.

    All in all that episode did a fantastic job of wetting my appetite for Blackwater!

  674. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    slavery is not a constriction of the Volantene social system?

    She wasn’t a slave so what does that have to do with you saying she felt oppressed by the constrictions of her social system? You are just moving the goal posts now.

    And nothing bad has happened to a young single attractive woman without anyone to protect her in a country engaged in a civil war because why wouldn’t she have mentioned that to Robb?

    What women do you meet that start laying out the most traumatic events in their lives to you the second they meet you? We don’t know all of her back story and we have no way to know what horrible things she’s been through. Maybe it has been a picnic but I have no reason to just assume that. In fact, it seems much more reasonable to assume she has had a tough life considering she left her home land and noble life. I mean for all we know she could have had to go through the horrible experience of sawing off soldiers legs.

    As far as I know there’s no Westeros equivalent of the Red Cross and neutral medical personnel. I find it astonishing that she hasn’t at least faced the threat of rape by someone.

    Of course you find that hard to believe. You have ruled it out as an option from the beginning. According to your interpretation of things if she hasn’t told Robb about something then it didn’t happen.

    In short, as lovely as Oona Chaplin may be, I find the character poorly conceived and written. And I’m not just saying this as a demonized “purist” (which isn’t even the case but no doubt I’ll be accused of this!) I have plenty of friends who haven’t read the books and who generally like the show who find Talisa annoying and/or boring and Robb’s dalliance with her both telegraphed and uninteresting.

    Look, I don’t care if you like Talisa or not. I am critiquing the story you laid out for her because it isn’t the story that has been shown on tv. Your story of her requires a lot of assumptions that you have not backed up. You have to come up with something better than “she would have told Robb” if you want to mock their writing talents.

    Also I would like to point out that I have not called you any names like a book purist. There is no reason to get defensive and assume that you are getting attacked. I disagree with you and am challenging you to back up what you wrote.

  675. TyrionFan57
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    but it’s hardly inconsistent for Cersei to think Tyrion is so depraved or “bad” (for lack of a better term) that he’d send his whore out to service Joffrey.

    How do we even know that Cersei knows which whores Tyrion sent to “service” Joffrey?
    She could have just heard about it and not know the identities of the whores themselves.

  676. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    Shock Me,

    None of the other questions you posed are critical to her answer to Robb’s question.

    true, but That wasnt the point. I question the story and asked myself how she got to westeros.
    I have a hard time believing that a noble woman would go swimming with her brother without some supervison like a few servants or what not. they would have taken care of her brother as she was talking to somebody else.
    And as as I said how did she leave her parents? They would not have let her go.
    So she has to sneak out? Then she had to lie to shipcaptain to get to westeros. very dangerous. did she bring gold? protection?
    How did she set up her RED CROSS like thing? The faith? maybe.

    Look I dont mind her story if it was set in our 20th century. But at least for me it sound very unlike this world that the show takes place in.
    Something is off there.

    As for other things:
    Harrenhal and Arya/tywin didnt progress Aryas character I fear.
    And i am not sure if Daxos plot to overtake the city did really better danys plotline.
    seeing as everybody I know you hadnt read the book knew that that plot wasnt in the book, that is not a good thing.

    I am really happy that they made the series but so fare season 2 wasnt as good as season 1. I am surprised that where they made and had to made changes it didnt came out that good.

  677. Gonfaloniere
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Dan, I’m saying that Talisa is ONE example of the inconsistent writing that has characterized this show in season 2 – she’s a paper-thin character, invented to be a girlfriend for Robb and given a backstory chock-full of cliches to make us “sympathetic” to her.

    The way that none of the established conditions of the admittedly made-up world of Westeros seem to apply to Talisa is why I think Talisa is a poorly written character. To take one example, I find it completely unbelievable that in the bleak dark world that is Westeros in the middle of a civil war an unaccompanied young woman – who is not able to wield a sword and has not made any attempt to disguise herself as a boy or a man – has been magically shielded from rape or attempted rape. (For example, Arya Stark is warned by Yoren to disguise herself as a boy because she will be an immediate target for rape (and betrayal to Queen Cersei) if she appears to be a highborn girl.) I infer that Talisa has not been the victim of rape or sexual trauma because if she had been, I find it impossible that she wouldn’t mention such an incident to Robb before she has sex with him.

    As for the question of slavery versus the patriarchy, perhaps I haven’t stated my point clearly enough: I am saying that evidently it is really easy to leave a society that has social constructs you disapprove of in Volantis (or in the writers’ room from which Talisa emerged), which is certainly not the case in Westeros. And it makes the women of Westeros who struggle with things they dislike in THEIR society look like chumps, because hey, look how awesome Talisa is! She hated slavery so she ran off to become a nurse! How much more admirable than that ugly anonymous Frey girl who’s been sold off in marriage by her father to Robb Stark!

    I’m not saying that her book equivalent, Jeyne Westerling, is a fully-fleshed out character, but she doesn’t stick out as so jarringly out-of-place in this invented world, because she is a part and parcel of it.

    I get it – you like Talisa. I don’t. I think she’s poorly written, unconvincing and the only good thing I can say about her scenes is that Oona Chaplin is very pretty, because otherwise everytime she’s onscreen the episode grinds to a halt. I’ve seen in “The Hour” and she was fine in that, so I have to assume that it’s the writing and not the actress that’s the problem.

    Again, it’s my opinion (just as the opinion of those who think this is the Best Show Ever is also their opinion, although it is one with which I disagree.) I am not sure why I’m required to provide you with a list of reasons (which you decide are good or bad) for why I have this opinion, but I’ve provided you with my reasons.

  678. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: Again, it’s my opinion (just as the opinion of those who think this is the Best Show Ever is also their opinion, although it is one with which I disagree.) I am not sure why I’m required to provide you with a list of reasons (which you decide are good or bad) for why I have this opinion, but I’ve provided you with my reasons.

    Right (write) on! I have to say that it’s NOT the book “purists” (and I also have to say this overused phrase is starting to sound like a dirty word, like how being accused of being a “liberal” by republicans is supposed to be a bad thing) but I digress: It’s not the people who love the books/characters/GRMM’s writing and dialog/certain scenes/characters they miss that are driving me batty and making me not want to post here, it’s all the THIS IS THE BEST SHOW EVER/D&D CAN DO NO WRONG/HOW DARE YOU INSULT/FIND SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT/ or COMPLAIN ABOUT ANYTHING! These are the people/sheep/lemmings who are driving me away.

    And the “so why are you watching it dude?/stop watching/go watch something else” is tired and boorish.

    I’m pretty tired of being made to feel like I’m some kind of asshole because I like The Reeds and think they’re important to the story/or like the Blackfish/or miss Weasel Soup, etc.

    I’d rather be passionate about something and have an opinion than blindly follow along.

    Really, some of the blatant ass-kissing makes me want to throw up. And what the hell is this “ASOIAF fans are the worse fans ever” shit. PU-LEESE.

    Is the show a great show? Yes, and there is nothing like it on TV. But has it had some missteps? Yes, and quite a few of them.

    I do agree we all need to keep a civil and intelligent tone when discussing it here. I’m just getting very sick of insult after insult to book readers/lovers. Maybe I’m seeing it one sided, but it seems to me that “show purists” are definitely spewing more vitriol and being more disrespectful than “book purists.”

    Remember, if there wasn’t the books, (that millions of people love) there wouldn’t even be a show. So i think it’s perfectly ok that people want to discuss changes with the adaptation and, gods forbid! talk about what they don’t like about it, without being jumped on, insulted, and driven away.

  679. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Something’s up with the way Tyrion was looking at the map, and the “Mud Gate” in particular. And the way he said “Pig shit”. Not sure what exactly, but something’s cookin’ there.

  680. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    ah somebody who understands me. then again Gonfaloniere you explain it better then i could.

    Or to say it in another way:

    if the frey girl tryed to run away Walder would of course stop her. He also would never let one of his daughter & one of his sons go swimming alone, espcially if all the common people where there.
    Walder may be the extrem patriach but it still true all over the GoT world.

  681. The Rabbit
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere: The way that none of the established conditions of the admittedly made-up world of Westeros seem to apply to Talisa is why I think Talisa is a poorly written character. To take one example, I find it completely unbelievable that in the bleak dark world that is Westeros in the middle of a civil war an unaccompanied young woman – who is not able to wield a sword and has not made any attempt to disguise herself as a boy or a man – has been magically shielded from rape or attempted rape. (For example, Arya Stark is warned by Yoren to disguise herself as a boy because she will be an immediate target for rape (and betrayal to Queen Cersei) if she appears to be a highborn girl.) I infer that Talisa has not been the victim of rape or sexual trauma because if she had been, I find it impossible that she wouldn’t mention such an incident to Robb before she has sex with him.

    Finally someone gave a valid explanation of Talisa being out-of-westeros character.
    Well done, ser!
    I am not a book purist (I would not say lover of the book, because I am lover of the book and the lover of the show), and I can not say that kind of Talisa ruins show for me, but let s say I agree with you on the matter.

  682. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    Again, it’s my opinion (just as the opinion of those who think this is the Best Show Ever is also their opinion, although it is one with which I disagree.) I am not sure why I’m required to provide you with a list of reasons (which you decide are good or bad) for why I have this opinion, but I’ve provided you with my reasons.

    I am not challenging your opinions, I am challenging your facts. I also never said you are required to do anything. It is up to you if you want to defend your statements.

    Now the statement I challenged is not an opinion. You said, “Oh, all the women of Westeros who feel oppressed by the constrictions of their social system had to do was hop on over by themselves to another continent and nothing could possibly go wrong? Good to know!” This is a statement that can be judged to factually true or not.

    The way that none of the established conditions of the admittedly made-up world of Westeros seem to apply to Talisa is why I think Talisa is a poorly written character. To take one example, I find it completely unbelievable that in the bleak dark world that is Westeros in the middle of a civil war an unaccompanied young woman – who is not able to wield a sword and has not made any attempt to disguise herself as a boy or a man – has been magically shielded from rape or attempted rape. (For example, Arya Stark is warned by Yoren to disguise herself as a boy because she will be an immediate target for rape (and betrayal to Queen Cersei) if she appears to be a highborn girl.) I infer that Talisa has not been the victim of rape or sexual trauma because if she had been, I find it impossible that she wouldn’t mention such an incident to Robb before she has sex with him.

    Talisa is not out wandering the King’s Road. Why would she need to disguise herself? She also is not unattended. She had an entire wagon full of supplies and a man to lead her around on it. She also knew the boy that had to have his leg sawed off. Based on those two observations from the show there is no reason to assume she is wandering the roads or unattended. This appears to be where she has been living. You are jumping to conclusions that are not borne out by the scenes she is in.

    As for the question of slavery versus the patriarchy, perhaps I haven’t stated my point clearly enough: I am saying that evidently it is really easy to leave a society that has social constructs you disapprove of in Volantis (or in the writers’ room from which Talisa emerged), which is certainly not the case in Westeros. And it makes the women of Westeros who struggle with things they dislike in THEIR society look like chumps, because hey, look how awesome Talisa is! She hated slavery so she ran off to become a nurse! How much more admirable than that ugly anonymous Frey girl who’s been sold off in marriage by her father to Robb Stark!

    You are just assuming it was really easy for her to leave Volantis. We don’t know how difficult it was for her to get out of her situation. It’s also a weird assumption to make considering you realize it would be very difficult for many other women to do the same thing. In this world it is much more likely that she had a hard journey getting to where she is. If the writers finish up her back story and say she had it easy getting to Westeros then you’ll have a point, but until they do then you are just assuming it to be the case even though that seems unlikely in this world.

    I get it – you like Talisa. I don’t. I think she’s poorly written, unconvincing and the only good thing I can say about her scenes is that Oona Chaplin is very pretty, because otherwise everytime she’s onscreen the episode grinds to a halt. I’ve seen in “The Hour” and she was fine in that, so I have to assume that it’s the writing and not the actress that’s the problem.

    What does that have to do with anything? I already said I didn’t care if you like her character or not. I’m not challenging your opinions but your facts. You keep making statements about her back story that are either true or not. I am making the case that they are either not true or just your assumptions that we have no reason to believe at this point.

  683. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I guess he made fun of the fact, that it seemed to be easy for her.

    I would even go so fare as to say she couldnt do it because her parents wouldnt let her go.
    That is a Presumption yes, but given everthing we know about the GoT world and our own past a somewhat true one, no?

    And as I said before:

    A young noblewoman going swiming in the river with her babybrother ALONE? At the same time as thousands of other people most of them commmers? yeah right!
    She would have servants with her, slaves or guards.

    I also question her escape from home. doable yes. she would need commoner clothes, no? But she leaves without telling anybody? Then she goes to the harbor, looking for a ship. How does she pay for the journey?
    see in old times a woman was her father until he married her off to a husband, so normally the unmarried noblewoman had no money of her on(At least I remember something along those lines).
    how did she pay for her medical provisions? how did she learn to be a medic, not something noblewomen learn.

    finally I want to point out that even non book reader reviewers feel that something is not right because they call her a trustfund kid in the peacecorps and her scenes with robb something out of Grey’s Anatomy.

    Look I agree that we have very little info as of now.

  684. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz: A young noblewoman going swiming in the river with her babybrother ALONE? At the same time as thousands of other people most of them commmers? yeah right!
    She would have servants with her, slaves or guards.

    Actually it sounds a little like the Water Gardens in Dorne, they make a point of saying commoners and nobles all play together there.

  685. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    that is something different. the gardens are somewhat isolataed and there are guards there.

    A real life example:

    In india the daughter of a Millionaire and her babybrother would never go swimming into the ganges river without bodyguards or something.

  686. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz: Steven Swanson, that is something different. the gardens are somewhat isolataed and there are guards there.A real life example:In india the daughter of a Millionaire and her babybrother would never go swimming into the ganges river without bodyguards or something.

    Yeah, I guess. Personally her story didn’t bother me, at least not enough to pick it apart. Only thing that bugged me about it was its seemingly interminable length.

  687. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    I would even go so fare as to say she couldnt do it because her parents wouldnt let her go.
    That is a Presumption yes, but given everthing we know about the GoT world and our own past a somewhat true one, no?

    I’m not claiming that her parents let her go or would even be ok with the idea. I imagine it was very difficult for her to get where she is now. But until we know this back story I think it is weird to presume she made it to Westeros easily as Gonfaloniere suggested.

    A young noblewoman going swiming in the river with her babybrother ALONE? At the same time as thousands of other people most of them commmers? yeah right!
    She would have servants with her, slaves or guards.

    Who is to say she didn’t? She never made that statement and since you agree that is unlikely that she wouldn’t have guards or servants with her then the more logical assumption would be that she did. We can’t just go assuming she didn’t have guards because they weren’t specifically mentioned in her story she told to Robb.

    I also question her escape from home. doable yes. she would need commoner clothes, no? But she leaves without telling anybody? Then she goes to the harbor, looking for a ship. How does she pay for the journey?
    see in old times a woman was her father until he married her off to a husband, so normally the unmarried noblewoman had no money of her on(At least I remember something along those lines).
    how did she pay for her medical provisions? how did she learn to be a medic, not something noblewomen learn.

    I have no idea how she did those things. We haven’t been privy to that information yet. Like you said though that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done. I assume it was a difficult journey. But not having answers to these questions yet doesn’t mean there aren’t logical answers for them.

    finally I want to point out that even non book reader reviewers feel that something is not right because they call her a trustfund kid in the peacecorps and her scenes with robb something out of Grey’s Anatomy.

    I’m not saying people should like her or not. That doesn’t matter to me at all. I am simply challenging some of the made up back story people have come up with on their own to bash her or the writing. I never had a word to say when people were complaining about the way she talked to Robb in the first scene she was in. I personally wasn’t bothered by that but I’m sure my libertarian beliefs and anti-war stance has something to do with that. I just don’t think it is fair to the writers to say they screwed up and justify that by creating a back story for her that they never have given us. I’ve seen plenty of people complain about her that didn’t do this and I have no problem with their stance. I don’t agree with them but that is besides the point.

  688. McKee
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    I’m sorta mystified by the debate ranging about “Talisa” and her “back story”.

    If she were presenting all of this information to Catelyn, you bet that Cat would have a number of very incisive questions just along these lines. How is it I have never heard of your family name? How were you able to escape your home country and make your way here? Under whose protection do you live and work?

    But, wonder of wonders, she isn’t talking to Catelyn, she’s talking to Robb. And Robb wants to believe the things she tells him. Why does he accept all of this without question? Because, like most men, he indulges in a fantasy of what romance ought to be, and, like most folks, he is quick to accept things he wants to be true. Not like his mom. Perhaps a bit like his dad. He has no talent for spycraft.

    You’ll notice that I am working from the assumption that her story is a ruse, a total fabrication to lull Robb into making the worst mistake of his life. And how not?

    Am I missing something here?

  689. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    look you are not the defender of this. I never said you claim something or other and yes I agree with you that we dont have much information.
    Would you agree that some of the stuff we made up, in good faith and given what we know about GoT & Ice&Fire, or asked about her story are things worth to at least think about?

    p.s.:
    my libertarian beliefs and anti-war stance

    what a second! You are a godless treehugging bisexual communist? no wonder! ;-)

  690. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    look you are not the defender of this.

    I’m not the defender of what? My position? I kind of think I am.

    I never said you claim something or other and yes I agree with you that we dont have much information.
    Would you agree that some of the stuff we made up, in good faith and given what we know about GoT & Ice&Fire, or asked about her story are things worth to at least think about?

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to think about anything. In fact, if a lot of the assumptions you guys have made about this character are true, I won’t say a word if you criticize the writing. I don’t find most of these assumptions to be likely but that’s a separate issue.

    But to the actual point I’ve been making from the beginning, do you think it is legitimate to mock the writers, not for what they wrote, but for the made up back story someone created in their head? I’m not accusing you of doing this, by the way, but that is what actually elicited my initial response. Gonfaloniere mocked the writers based on the back story he had devised on his own for Talisa. So I’ve been pointing out that some of the things he said can be shown to be false (she was not unattended and it is not self evident that she made it to Westeros easily) and other things were just assumptions that we have no way to verify as truth yet. If he wants to say the character is boring, uncharismatic, annoying, etc. then I have no problem with that. I disagree but I don’t expect to have the same opinion as everyone. If he wants to mock them for things he came up with in his head then I’ll challenge that, as long as I have the time.

    what a second! You are a godless treehugging bisexual communist? no wonder! ;-)

    That’s pretty funny. I’ve actually gotten similar reactions from people when I’ve told them I’m a libertarian before but they were serious. My favorite is when I say I’m a libertarian and the person says, “so you’re a communist” or “so you’re a socialist”. My response is always the same, “Yes, when I said I was a libertarian what I meant was I’m the antithesis of libertarianism.” It always shocks me how willing people are to loudly proclaim their ignorance.

  691. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    What i mean I Who are not the defender of her backstory so fare, that is what the writer have given us.
    mocking the writer about her backstory so fare? I have to reread that.
    And no I would just be sad if they went that way.
    But our assumptions and question about her backstory are legitamd, or are they not?
    they are not verifyed, but everything about the Talisa character kind of makes her stand out.

    @libertarian

    well you crazy americans!
    The US-version of it I had to say that would be a centre right wing thing over her.
    Her in europe our left wings parties and what not dont even exist in both US parties. I guess most social democrats and conservatvies in europe would be commies in the US. ;-)

  692. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    We are just talking past each other on this issue at this point. To add anything further would be to just restate what I’ve already said.

    I did notice though that you studied at Vienna University of Economics and Business when I clicked on your name. I don’t know if you are familiar with guys like Ludwig Von Mises, Guildo Hulsmann, Jesus Huerta De Soto, or Murray Rothbard but that is the brand of libertarianism I follow. I’m a Rothbardian libertarian and follow the Austrian school of economics. Here is a short article that explains my philosophy. http://mises.org/daily/3660/What-Libertarianism-Is

    I’m only familiar with one or two politicians in the US that ascribe to this philosophy. Millions of people are gravitating towards it but not politicians or political parties.

  693. The Hawk
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark,

    bet you any amount of money next episode will be the most faithful to the books, and it will be the best written episode of the season…

  694. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk:
    Brandon Stark,

    bet you any amount of money next episode will be the most faithful to the books, and it will be the best written episode of the season…

    I’ll take that bet, given the budgetary limitations there’s no way it can be even remotely faithful, and GRRM has said as much.

    I’m still expecting a great episode, though.

  695. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    alright then.

    And yes, know them somewhat, but I am not all too familiar with US version of this philosophy.
    We will talk about Talisa next week alright?

  1. [...] note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask all the series veterans to refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or [...]


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