Bryan Cogman clarifies Twitter situation
By Winter Is Coming on in General.

Last night, Bryan Cogman, writer and story editor on Game of Thrones, deleted his Twitter account but not before leaving this final message, “You know what? I’m done. Thx to all of you who’ve been kind & respectful. Enjoy the rest of the show. #NoMoreGoTWritersOnTwitter”

After some discussion here and elsewhere about this abrupt exit, Bryan wanted to clarify the situation, so he sent me this statement:

Hi all,

In light of a few messages I’ve received, I feel the need to explain my Twitter defection. Will try to keep this brief, as there are a lot more important things happening in the world that need our attention.

The hashtag was immature. I’m sorry I put it that way. It was an emotional reaction after a long day. I don’t regret leaving Twitter, but I should have been more respectful, since that’s what I was asking of fans. Apologies for that.

It was not an easy thing for me to do, as I really enjoy Twitter and interacting with fans of the show, some of whom have become friends. And I absolutely recognize that the majority of you have been nothing but positive and supportive. So if my leaving Twitter has disappointed you, I’m sorry. Of course, it’s important to remember I’m not dead. I’ll still engage with the fan community, I’ll still check the message boards from time to time, do interviews, etc… I just won’t be on Twitter. Really not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You’re not gonna miss that much — the majority of my tweets were promoting the show (which needs no help from me) or talking about the weirdos that hang out in my coffee shop. But I truly appreciate the notes of support I’ve received.

I also want to make clear that this isn’t a reaction to people who’ve asked me questions or expressed concerns in a kind and/or respectful way. I wish I could have made people understand that I’m not in a position to answer questions about why certain characters were absent this season or why we changed a particular storyline… but many of you asked those questions with good intentions, so please know this isn’t directed at you.

Which brings me to the reason I’ve decided to leave. Some people weren’t so nice. They’d either rant at me about what they didn’t like or, at their worst, insult me and my bosses. I realized today I was spending too much time weighing on how/if I should respond and being frustrated by the negativity. And I felt like I was being punished for opening myself up to viewers. I concluded it was just distracting me too much, taking up too much of my time and energy and running the risk of affecting my work. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for a long time and a few choice tweets from some disgruntled fans just pushed me over the edge — hence the hasty farewell tweet.

Everyone’s entitled to express themselves on Twitter and if I have a public Twitter feed, I’m opening myself up to both the good and the bad. So, no more public Twitter feed. I’m going to follow the practice of my fellow GoT writers and just concentrate on doing a good show. Please know, from the bottom of my heart, I hope you all enjoy these next two episodes of our adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire and all the episodes to follow. And if you don’t, that’s okay too, really it is… I’d just rather not hear about it anymore.

Thanks, and all the best,

B

Winter Is Coming: I completely understand Bryan wanting to pull away from Twitter. Getting constant feedback can hamper the creative process, even positive feedback. Although it is sad that there are people out there that denigrate the hard work that Bryan and his bosses, David Benioff & Dan Weiss, do to get this show on the air, just because they disagree with the way the show has handled certain characters and scenes. It saddens me to think that this might tarnish Bryan, David and Dan’s impression of the fan base. I’m not saying you are not allowed to have an opinion, but we should try to be civil about it. In the end, we all love this show and these books and we should be respectful of our fellow fans (and I include Bryan as a fellow fan), even those we disagree with.


387 Comments

  1. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    The terrorists have won.

  2. lannisport
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    The worst thing is I bet that a large part of the abuse he was getting was from people kicking off about the damn Reeds not being in.

  3. Darkenmal
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Doesn’t really bother me. Just continue to make an excellent show.

  4. Dick
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

  5. Webg
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    No apology necessary!

  6. Mon
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Bryan, you’re a legend! And you’ve got nothing to apologize for!

    Thanks for all the amazing work you’ve done to help make the show the masterpiece that it is! It’s appreciated. Whatever issues I have, no show on EARTH can surpass the brilliance of ‘Game of Thrones’. People are very quick to pick apart and criticize things – the sense of entitlement is sickening.

    Love your work!

  7. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Dick:
    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    Was this necessary? After I just got done talking about how we should be more civil to our fellow fans. *sigh*

    Oh, and Bryan Cogman had next to nothing to do with the last episode.

  8. Tolgeros
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Dick: The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    Aaaaand feedback like this is exactly what he’s talking about.

  9. Dennis
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Completely understand Bryan! Don’t let a bunch of basement dwellers with nothing better to do ruin your fun and love for the show and books. Keep up the awesome work!

  10. Ed
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Don’t blame him one bit.

    I know what you mean, Brian – we read posts from those same negative nabobs of nitpickery every. single. week. (You know who you are)

    Love the book, love the show, neither are perfect, and I’m okay with that. I just feel really lucky to get the high quality treatment we’re getting.

  11. The_Rabbit01
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Dear B.,

    I am very sad you left Twitter – but I fully understand the decision.
    I think there are lot of fans everywhere who still respect and appreciate your and D & D s work on the show.

    Thank you once again :)

  12. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Twitter is supposed to be for fun, and blaming Cogman for being annoyed with pestering and insulting is unfair. Blaming the victim for not wanting to be harassed is not cool.

    Bryan Cogman should not be the person that fans direct all their angst at over plot changes/less screen time for Sansa/No Reeds/Catelyn character fuckery/whatever.

    And I am really happy to see people say loads of great things about him too. He deserves a lot of credit. There’s still mostly great people in this fandom, this drama aside. :)

  13. Kid
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Ah, c’mon. Not sure about wrighters, but all game developers know, that you never should dicuss anything with gamers. Just keep away. Daesn’t matter how succesful your project is.. few “little shits” will always find a way to tell you how you should do your job))

  14. Jillybean
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Sorry Bryan is gone from Twitter, but completely understand the reasoning. (as evidenced here). He was fun to follow not only for the GoT tweets, but I loved his coffee shop adventures. I’m really going to miss those!
    And to all of those hateful & rude people…. the only person I really think has any right to be nit-picky about the series is the man who actually wrote it. And if GRRM is happy with it (which he obviously is), then I’m happy with it. Actually, I’m happy with it, anyway.
    Hopefully, eventually, Bryan will be back. I need to know what Clapton songs that dude at the coffee shop butchers next!
    Will miss you, Bryan.

  15. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Dick:
    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    Typical prick comment . I am ashamed to be in a fanbase that has people like you .

  16. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Glad he’s off Twitter. On the one hand it was cool he was interacting so much with fans but too much of that stuff will influence your creative process, take up too much time from working on the show, and probably annoy him more than it being fun. It’s the same with Carice van Houten who makes it a personal mission to call out all of her haters on Twitter. It’s the internet, 99% of the shit out there needs to be ignored.

    Anyway mr. Cogman, I hope you’ll keep on working on the show with the same joy you had when you got the job! And I’m sure we’ll see you around here in the talkbacks now and then.

  17. fiendebass
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    He was a stand up guy, and directly interacted with the fans quite a bit (a privilege for us, not a right). Now he’s gone the way of Gethin Anthony.

    I look forward to his season 3 work.

  18. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Aah, the Internet. Where anonymity and distance allow people to be the total dicks they’d never be — and shouldn’t be — to someone’s face.

  19. Alex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    There’s no cure for being a c*nt, or a book purist.

  20. Carne
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Sad to see you leave, Bryan :( Please stick around over here though!

  21. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Dick,

    That’s actually hilarious how you’re in character for your username. Touche, dude. That is, if that was intentional.

    If it wasn’t, that was a useless opinion. You’re allowed to have opinions, of course, but the lesson at hand with the Cogman Contraversy us unreasoned and unconstructive feedback, which is precisely what drove Bryan another degree away from us, the fanbase. If you really feel that way about the episode (and plenty of respectable users on this site and others do), be ready to defend and elaborate on your position. We have no use for stay-at-home critics with nothing but sound bites.

  22. qox
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    it is sad that there are people out there that denigrate the hard work

    Welcome to the internet

  23. A Knight of Winter
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    I don’t blame the man for quitting twitter but you also have the standard reply of “you are not required to follow me” and the other option of /block

  24. Katie
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    This whole situation left a bad taste in my mouth.

    It’s upsetting that people on the internet think they can get away with all sorts of behavior, just because the object of their attentions can’t look them in the eye. Here was someone on the production team who was as big a fan as we are of the material, and was happy to engage with us about the project. That was a gift to the fans, and it became something shitty that he had to deal with, instead of being something fun. Shame on the people who didn’t feel it necessary to show the basic amount of respect to Bryan, just because their favorite fictional characters weren’t being portrayed to their liking.

    I am glad that Bryan released a statement about this, though. His final comments were pretty off-putting, especially to the people who were just reading about this after the fact and had no idea what would’ve prompted this reaction. He was always as respectful to us as he expected us to be, so it caught me off guard.

    Thanks, Bryan, for acknowledging that the majority of the people you talked to were not the problem. I respect that you’re trying to distance yourself from feedback, in order to concentrate on your job. Maybe later on, when the backlash wears off and you can compartmentalize the fan feedback, you can join in the conversation again. :)

    To all the haters: Get over yourselves, it’s a TV show. If you could write it, you would be, and then we’d be bugging the shit out of you.

  25. dig
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    This is a shame. I really enjoyed hearing what he had to say and he was really great to us all from the very beginning. I especially enjoyed his commentary in the dvd/bd set and all of the work that went into the show and the set. Can’t say that I blame him though. No one has to put up with that crap. Easiest solution is to shut it down. Good on him.

  26. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    So I feel odd doing this, but I posted this last night when there wasn’t a thread dedicated to the issue. Day-old post ahead:

    To Bryan:

    I’ll try to keep it brief, but will probably fail in this.

    For every vocal naysayer there are thousands more who simply love the work you and the rest of the gang have poured into the show. The numbers may not talk, but they speak volumes all the same. You’ve all brought ASOIAF to untold millions who may never have been introduced to the series otherwise, including the dozen friends I’ve ragged on to tune in who, in turn, were immediately converted to GoT addicts like so many zombies and bronies, including those who previously made a habit of turning their noses up to fantasy offerings. In fact, it was the enthusiasm of my non-reader friends who truly opened my eyes to your achievement and increased my appreciation of your work and that of everyone involved. You guys did it!

    Regarding your personal input as a writer (will we never know how much care you put into the rest of the season as story editor?), I recall being more than pleasantly surprised by “What is Dead May Never Die.” I truly believe this season has grown stronger by the episode, with the cinematography and the writing coming into its own. I sensed the writers were more free from the burden of exposition that weighed more heavily on the first season, and while remaining quite faithful to the novels, were also bold enough to make it their own. Your episode actually stuck out to me since Alan Taylor and D&D are the chief household names among the viewership, but even after “The North Remembers” and “The Night Lands,” the season kept surprising me, starting with “What is Dead May Never Die” and its successors. I was beside myself when talking each episode over with my friends: “Shit, this week’s was even better!” I used to be irked by the adaptation aspect, but once I saw what the show meant to people, the fog lifted, the scales fell from my eyes, and I began to recognize what all of you have truly brought to us: an opportunity to fall in love with ASOIAF again.

    It was a simple choice to stop setting myself up for the inevitable disappointments (perhaps big, but really, mostly small) that burdening you with realizing the book word for word would bring. And really, you wouldn’t just be pitting against GRRM’s words and yours. You’d be taking on every reader’s wild imagination, trying to produce something that fit the projections of every passionate reader’s mind’s eye. I want more people to shake off that hideous premise regarding your jobs. You’re all damned good at what you do.

    I’m sorry for the circumstances leading up to the Twitter shutdown, but I hope you are all the better for it. You and your colleagues already have your hands full with the tall order ahead. While it’s good to have an ear for fans, it’s counterproductive to take in so much input you become personally divided over your own work. I’m sure you all have a thick enough skin, but what goes into your head has a hard time ever getting out. I’ll keep being a fan and ardent apologist to the book-goggled Burned Men (and Women) while you and the rest of the GoT crew do all the heavy lifting. :)

    Best,

    WompWomp

    P.S. Seriously, if it gets to be too much, hire a forum/comment-browsing surrogate. It’d be a shame if you cut yourself off from us. :(

  27. Isabelle
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Alan,

    You have it in a nutshell. Online “communities” can bring out the worst in people because there are no consequences for being unkind.

    Bryan, you rock. Am sending you massive, massive hugs, some lemoncakes and a headless Joffrey.

  28. Marco Díaz Calleja
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Here’s to Bryan Cogman, (probably) the first of his name, writer of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

    At least we will feast on the best story ever told, Game of Thrones.

    Thank you Bryan. I respect your position.

  29. mikeintexas
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Alex:
    There’s no cure for being a c*nt, or a book purist.

    well said…

  30. Lisa
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Totally understandable. No one needs negativity like that in their lives. Although it’s a loss for fans who truly want to interact with him on a civil level…in the end he’ll be much happier not having to constantly deal with the negativity.

  31. John W
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    I don’t do twitter.

    If I had a chance to ask Mr Cogman a question it would probably be: what did you expect?

    Have you not interacted on the web before?

    It’s a shame a few rotten apples have to spoil it for everyone but, again what did you expect when your on the web.

  32. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Alex:
    There’s no cure for being a c*nt, or a book purist.

    I realize you are just trying to be funny, but it’s not an issue of book purists vs. non-book purists. It’s an issue of respectful people vs. rude people. You can be a book purist and be respectful about it. Or you can be a non-book reading fan and still be a jerk. The point is, we are all fans and we should be respectful of each other, no matter what part of the purist spectrum we fall on.

    I hate the divisiveness that seems to always occur in a fandom. Taking sides and labeling others does nothing to foster a sense of fan unity.

  33. Pamoya
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    I am only a twitter lurker, but I completely understand what a time suck twitter can be. If I was getting abuse in addition to the time-wasting factor, I am sure I would make the same decision.

    It is the same with the video games I play, and the mentality of people who do this completely baffles me. Some people take any small amount of interaction creative people give them and use it to complain in the most obnoxious way possible. The universe does not owe you a TV show that matches your preferences in every way.

    I understand disappointment when your favorite moment from the book doesn’t make it to the TV show. One great thing about the show and the books are that everyone seems to have their own favorite moments and characters, and part of the fun of this blog is to argue about the show with other fans. But surely this is only a tiny problem in your life. If too much X or not enough Y is such a big problem for you that you take your time to hurl abuse at the people who make the show possible in the first place, you should be thankful you don’t have any real problems.

  34. Empedocles
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    The saddest thing of all this is that those people that like to trash the writers for changing a storyline or amalgamating or cutting characters due to pacing, budgetary reasons, etc. will probably congratulate them and ask them for autographs if they should meet them in person in a coffee shop.

    The problem this season is probably due to the relentless, senseless and stupid bashing of Westeros.org and all other book purists, who can’t understand (although they insist that they do) the differences and the limitations of a TV show. Everybody wants 100 characters, that they shoot on location with 500 extras, epic battlers, CGI dragons and direwolfs. All of this with 50/60 million dollars (which is close to the budget of a romantic comedy featuring Kate Hudson and shot in a country house rented for 3 or four months). Ridiculous really.

  35. Mean25
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Shame
    I don’t understand why people harass Bryan when he is probably the best writer on the show, really knows the spirit of the books and characters. He deserves to be THE showrunner and write more episodes per season.
    People were complaining on twitter about mistakes/plotholes his bosses did, and it’s really not fair to take it out on Bryan, he can only so much with one great episode.

  36. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Yeah, reading the comments @ Cogman, I really don’t think it’s fair to put the blame on “book purists,” which is a vague category anyway. We’re all purists about some things, like our favorite storylines and characters. :)

  37. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    I would NEVER be on twitter if I was in the public spotlight (I’m not even on twitter now), so I don’t blame him one bit. I mean, some people are freakin crazy and will be rude in public without the anonymitty of being online, remember Lena Heady at ComicCon? People made a point not to get her autograph and were rude like she really IS Cercie….freaks! Why do you think Jack Gleeson doesn’t do the Cons?
    So imagine some of the shitty things people can say when they DO have the anonymitty? Hell, I’ve seen it on these very message boards.

    After all this though, I am thankful for the majority of us fans who are sane (most of the time anyway ;) !

    Brian, you are a great writer and I look forward to the remainder of the season and many more to come! HAZZAH!

  38. Mirri Maz
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Oh well it inevitable because of the growing fan base but also I wish people would get a grip sometimes and stop throwing tantrums every times something they like doesn’t make it to the screen.

  39. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    I’m impressed that Brian took the time to respond to respond to us in this way. I sympathise with him over the ups and downs of interacting with fandom and wish him the best.

  40. Vikestad
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Wow, ASOIAF fans, I hate you. There is a reason why I spend so little time on message boards. So much stupidity.

  41. Johan Sporre
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    I’m definitely glad I’ve been away from Twitter for a week so I didn’t have to witness this. Bryan is a stand-up guy and I’m glad he’s decided to make it harder for the dregs of internet to get a hold of him.

  42. Katie
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I get what you’re saying. It’s hard, when a fandom becomes this huge thing and then starts to turn in on itself. And you’re right, there are jerks in each side of the argument here. Believe me, both views can be a bitch to handle.

    That being said, a large percentage of the complaints this year have been from fans of the books who cannot stand their favorite story being changed in any way, shape or form. A lot of people have been pretty respectful about it. The loudest and most vocal ones haven’t. Unfortunately, they are defining the entire subsection of fans by waving their arms and shouting.

    From last year, we should all know by now that you can’t judge an entire season of this show until the end of episode 10. Each episode is a chapter in the story, and you won’t know the impact of the changes to the story until their developments have played themselves out. It is annoying as hell for me to constantly see this kind of criticism popping up on my twitter feed, and I don’t even work for the damn show. I can’t imagine what it’s like for people like Bryan.

    I know you don’t want to encourage a split within the fandom, but unfortunately it’s happening anyways. And even more unfortunately, the vocal majority are going to be the ones that become the face of the fans to the world at large, and they are making us out to be assholes. That’s just going to make the divide wider. If these people don’t learn to chill out and remember that this is not the most important thing you should be concentrating on in your life, at some point we’re all going to be stepping away from all of this and looking at each other like “Hey, remember when this used to be fun?”

  43. franny_bee
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    People who abuse others over the internet are losers. But they already know that.

    The best thing (only thing?) we can do is ignore them. There are lots of good people too!

  44. MockingTheFlayedLion
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    I feel sorry for Bryan, and while I am at it, George RR Martin. Sometimes I even feel sorry for George Lucas, even though I disagree with some of his choices. But hey, its his thing, so he should be the one making the decisions. (No point to this little rant to be honest) Only wanted to say that when stuff like this happens, it only makes me more happy that Wic.net is not full of those kind of assholes that made Bryan leave Twitter.

  45. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

    This sums up the dangers of online interaction. The internet is full of idiots and in most cases it’s better to avoid the confrontation with said idiots than participate in the “special olympics” of arguing.

    Too bad Bryan Cogman left the tweeter, I enjoyed his coffee shop tweets.
    I hope he and Vanessa Taylor write more episodes in future seasons.

  46. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Dick:
    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    In all fairness, his name is Dick.

    As for Cogman leaving Twitter, I would’ve advised him not to sign up in the first place, if I had been on his small council. At which point he would’ve said, “It’s done Ned. It’s already done”, and I would’ve replied, “I won’t be a part of it. It’s not right. They’re just fans. They are not mentally equipped for it. Leave them be”.

  47. Vanderhook
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: I realize you are just trying to be funny, but it’s not an issue of book purists vs. non-book purists. It’s an issue of respectful people vs. rude people. You can be a book purist and be respectful about it. Or you can be a non-book reading fan and still be a jerk. The point is, we are all fans and we should be respectful of each other, no matter what part of the purist spectrum we fall on.I hate the divisiveness that seems to always occur in a fandom. Taking sides and labeling others does nothing to foster a sense of fan unity.

    I totally get what you are saying. I hate creating an “Us vs Them” mentality and I hate making a certain group a scapegoat for why something went wrong. It’s ignorant and irresponsible to entire groups with the same broad stroke.

    Now you might be saying…
    “nothing someone says before the word “but” really counts.”

    But… these asshole comments *are* coming from the purists. This isn’t to say that all purists are assholes. It’s just that the vast majority of these hateful comments are coming form the purist community. The non-book readers who dislike this show just don’t watch it — they aren’t invested into ASOIAF purists. The book-readers who don’t like it feel betrayed that their beloved series is being supposedly raped. Therefore, they are the ones who flock to twitter and post the hateful comments. The proof is in the pudding, just look at the hate tweets. It’s all “why the fuck was this changed?” or “where the hell is this character?” or “this is NOTHING like the books whats wrong with you?!”. I’ve found very very few that seem to be coming from non-book readers. Not all purists are like this.. it’s a spectrum really. It’s silly to think that theres only two groups: purists and non-purists. Most of us book readers are somewhere in the middle, but the extreme ones, where ANY sort of change ruins their enjoyment are generally the worst.

  48. Nick Larter
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Personally I think he’s wrong.

    If you’re in the public eye and on twitter have a thick skin and use the block button. If your profile is high enough and/or you’re a sensitive soul separate the work account from the personal account and use the private tweets feature on the latter. Have a lackey run the work account.

    The existence of trolls is the price we pay for having a medium where all should be able to speak their mind without fear.

    FFS it’s not rocket science, any other line is naive.

  49. serum
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Dick,

    Hey WiC, is there a way to moderate these comments so that you can choose what gets posted and what doesnt, like the above comment. Completely unnecessary, I know everyone is entitled to their opinions but some opinions should be left on the cutting room floor!

  50. Leeniebean
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    While I’m sad for Bryan and frankly, pissed at the arseholes who made him feel that was his only option – I do totally understand the decision.

    I despise the attitude that show writers/runners/producers OWE audiences the very specific thing that they want.

    This is THEIR vision – if they wanted YOURS they would have hired YOU.

    BRYAN – I think you are hugely talented and I have honestly enjoyed the episodes you’ve written more than any of the others. PLEASE don’t let the bastards grind you down.

  51. Cristian Modesto
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    MockingTheFlayedLion,

    I definitely don’t feel sorry for George Lucas having seen him on video saying that they actually create different characters so they can sell more toys out of them! But, yes, I know what you mean. Fans nowadays have a sense of entitlement propelled by the development in Internet communications that can affect any type of property, sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.

  52. Ben Watson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Dick:
    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    This is a foolish attitude.

    IF the creators see that the BOOK-based fans are wavering in their support of the show, or at least that the vocal ones are, BUT the actual ratings don’t go down, what they will realize is that they don’t have to please book fans in order to have good ratings. Any semblance of doing things in the series “for the book fans” may disappear as they realize that the book fans just don’t matter ratings-wise. (Because ratings-wise really means money-wise.)

    If we book fans who hope to keep the main story on track with the books want to have input, we need to keep things civil. I don’t mean kiss ass if you really don’t like something, but express your displeasure like a mature adult voicing a legitimate concern. It’s pretty obvious from the way they’ve catered to the book fans so far that they DO care, at least somewhat, about keeping things in-line for us. Keeping them caring about that should be a priority, not making them pissed off at us and having them decide we don’t matter in the grand scheme of $$$ things.

    Simply, if we are possible to please, they may want to please us. If we are impossible to please but ratings stay high, they won’t want to bother trying.

  53. Udi
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Dick,

    Guess your name says it all…

  54. oh-bb
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Empedocles:
    The saddest thing of all this is that those people that like to trash the writers for changing a storyline or amalgamating or cutting characters due to pacing, budgetary reasons, etc. will probably congratulate them and ask them for autographs if they should meet them in person in a coffee shop.

    The problem this season is probably due to the relentless, senseless and stupid bashing of Westeros.org and all other book purists, who can’t understand (although they insist that they do) the differences and the limitations of a TV show. Everybody wants 100 characters, that they shoot on location with 500 extras, epic battlers, CGI dragons and direwolfs. All of this with 50/60 million dollars (which is close to the budget of a romantic comedy featuring Kate Hudson and shot in a country house rented for 3 or four months). Ridiculous really.

    And you know what? Even if they got all those things, they’d probably still bitch, because someone missed the precise positioning of the mole on so-and-so’s cheek, and they didn’t like the costumes, and that one line of dialogue didn’t sound right, though it came directly from the book, and by-god someone should have changed it and WHAT IS THIS FUCKERY.

    (ninja edit: because it’s not that they’re necessarily book purists, they’re just assholes.)

    In other words, unhappy, bitter people are always going to be unhappy, bitter people, and the Internet affords them all sorts of opportunities for long-distance, semi-anonymous bullying. And their voices can be very, very loud.

    So I think any person who is creating something these days has to either develop a very thick stick, or stay out of the fray. It’s unfortunate that this is the way it has to be, that instead people can’t simply be more respectful. It’s very possible to criticize and express dismay without being, well, a dick.

  55. Zack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    The internet is a blessing and a curse. Fans can interact with groups of each other, as well as the creators of their obsession, but it makes it easy for people who’d prefer not to have to think before shooting off to embarrass themselves and the fandom as a whole.

    B. Cogman…your decision is understandable and I respect it. But please don’t let the few jerkbags ruin the reputation of the good ones for you.

    Most people are going to have issues with certain things about the adaptation. No one can please everyone at all times. I’m sorry some people allow this truth to stop them from seeing everything you do get right. And then to resort to insults..shameful. It just shows they need to take things less seriously IMO. Or…you know, if they can’t, to just give up, stop watching, and leave the show to those of us who do love it.

    I think it’s safe to say most of us appreciate your efforts, yours and the other writers and directors, et cetera, to give us this show.

  56. Jackie MacPherson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Respect and restraint should be House Gatewatch’s second motto!

    In my early internet years way back when (94/95?!) I used to be in a forum where flaming and bad manners were just not accepted and everyone knew it and as a result it was a warm and welcoming environment.

    Respect to you Bryan. I have the privilege of knowing I was the first GoTer to tweet you (and get a response) and I’m glad you stayed around for as long as you did. :) Look forward to future posts and input from you.

  57. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    The tweet that officially set him off was from a woman respectfully asking if he could pass onto D&D that Yara is supposed to abhor the use of the word ‘cunt’ as an insult.

    He then responded by saying “she said it to a man”

    I’m just going to leave this here

  58. rolle
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Yes! Let’s rise fellow show purists against those filthy book-readers!! We shall burn all their books and silence their voices!! I hate books!

  59. B Cogman
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Excuse me, but how are you the expert on what “officially” set me off? That was absolutely NOT the Tweet that set me off.

    B

  60. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    DB:
    The tweet that officially set him off was from a woman respectfully asking if he could pass onto D&D that Yara is supposed to abhor the use of the word ‘cunt’ as an insult.

    He then responded by saying “she said it to a man”

    I’m just going to leave this here

    I’m sure it was more than just that.

    EDIT: And now I see Bryan confirmed my assumption.

  61. Zack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    Heh, nevermind then!

  62. Syrio
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    Unfortunately, there are too many jerks out there, and I’m sorry this is the way Bryan had to learn that lesson.

  63. Lina
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Haters gonna hate, and trolls gonna troll. Screw ‘em. We love you, Bryan!

    I have nothing but respect for Cogman. His interviews are always interesting and I love when he posts here. I love the fact that he took it upon himself to start building a Bible of Westeros history and lore for D&D to use. If that doesn’t show dedication to ASOIAF and GOT, then, well, Ned Stark still has his head.

    This isn’t about book purists versus whatever the other camp calls themselves. This is about people who act with respect versus those who don’t. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, true. But that doesn’t entitle you to harass others. I think in any of the arts – paintings, photography, creative writing, film – constructive criticism is always welcome. It’s one way in which artists improve and open themselves up to new perspectives. But constructive is the key word there. No one improves from an onslaught of insults and rants.

  64. B Cogman
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Whether you agree with our reasoning for having her use the word, I can assure you — the question itself didn’t anger me. It was a few responses that followed… you know, where the f word was used.

    Ok, I’m really done now. Thanks everyone for the warm comments. I really do appreciate it. Getting back to work now.

    B

  65. Beth
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    New to Twitter and ASoIAF just finished ACoK I’m ok with the changes, I’m not hardcore and nit pick every detail. I like the books I like the show.

  66. Udi
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Sad that Bryan C. feels this way and certainly understand his decision.
    Like every fan I have had my share of criticism, though for the most part I am absolutely thrilled and grateful about the show. Yes, ep 8 was not my favorite and I explained why (although seen it a 2nd time now and much better at second viewing – very emotional episode). But no one should resort to disgusting rudeness and Twitter seems like a breeding ground for those sorts of comments (which is why I rarely even go there).
    Hope Bryan realizes the majority of fans are deeply grateful for the hard dedicated work he has done and continues doing, alongside D&D and the amazing crew working day and night on this amazing show. Keep up the good work!

  67. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Yeah, you probably should leave it…he’d been tweeted that type of bullshit over and over and over again as well as very RUDE tweets from others. I would go medieval on peoples ass if I had to hear that negativity constantly.

  68. Lexyvil
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Despite the changes in the show, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still the best thing on TV right now.

    Maybe Season 3 and 4 will be more accurate to the third volume.

  69. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Well when you tamper with a beloved series you’re always going to upset parts of the fanbase, not excusing their actions of hounding Brian’s twitter account but what did he expect making himself so available to the disgruntled fans ?

    When you’re in the entertainment business the #1 rule is to stay away from the internet.

  70. sjwenings
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Bryan: It’s very understandable that you decided to leave. Strange how a few negative comments often have a bigger impact than many positive ones.

    Also – I LOVED your episode What is dead may never die! It’s possibly my favorite of the entire show. Hope you get write more than one in season 3.

  71. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    The Kingslayer:
    When you’re in the entertainment business the #1 rule is to stay away from the internet.

    Except — here’s the thing — it’s obvious to me that most of the awesome improvements between season one and two (a more masculine/less wimpy Renly, for example, though I’m sure others know of more) came directly from the online fanbase. The crew also, IIRC, looks at our casting discussions (although whether or not they take the suggestions is a whole other story).

  72. oh-bb
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    DB:
    The tweet that officially set him off was from a woman respectfully asking if he could pass onto D&D that Yara is supposed to abhor the use of the word ‘cunt’ as an insult.

    He then responded by saying “she said it to a man”

    I’m just going to leave this here

    I know this has already been answered (by Cogman himself, even), but I want to address something: this is it, right here. This is the problem. It’s the “I know better than anyone else and I’m gonna be snarky about it” attitude that is the root of most online shenanigans.

    The Internet has allowed us all to be become “detectives” and “experts” and it’s given us voices that ring from the mountaintops… but we need to remember that there’s a person behind every computer. You know?

    If you wanted to highlight this discussion that occurred on Twitter, there were many other ways to do it without coming off in this fashion.

  73. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Obviously fan feedback is needed but as an individual in the business it’s best to avoid forums, you’ll always get trolls who’s goal is to trash shows, movies, stars etc and just complain.

  74. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    A foul taste in my mouth as well. But it could be for the best, don’t let Twitter jerks distract you, B Cog! Vocal minorities always present a skewed picture of the fandom … and listening and considering every comment, negative or positive, rude or not, can drive a creative mind crazy. Glad you’re staying around and in touch, we’re happy to provide a platform for it ;)

  75. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    B Cogman,

    I wonder what that reasoning was I really do. And I love how you said “she used it on a man.” You realize that the use of the ‘cunt’ as an insult has immense sexist and misogynistic implications no matter who says it to whom. Just because she said it to a man doesn’t make it any less sexist. The Yara I know from the books is one of the only characters that realizes the sexism behind that word, one of te only characters that can be interpreted as an actual feminist in this series. Would it have killed you to have her use a different insult?

  76. Vanderhook
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    B Cogman: DB, Excuse me, but how are you the expert on what “officially” set me off? That was absolutely NOT the Tweet that set me off.B

    lol. DB got owned.

  77. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    All that means is he’ll have more time to focus on the 99% of the viewers who aren’t complete fucking cry babies. It’s a shame, and actually somewhat embaressing for the fan-base in general that this had to happen, but the internet has created an army of arm chair critics who think their opinion is worth a squirt of piss simply because social media outlets allow them to have somewhat personal exchanges with the people who actually do the work to bring this story (and many others) to the screen.

    I’d wish Bryan the best of luck, but considering he’s working closely with D&D on what many of us would probably consider a dream job, I don’t think he needs it.

  78. JonathanL
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    There is a site I used to frequent before the show that, as of this season, i don’t go to anymore, because it’s endless whining about adaptation. I don’t care about any of that. I judge the show on its own merits.

    The creative team behind GoT have done a good job. At times, they have done a brilliant job, and at other times, it’s been less brilliant, but overall, it’s very good. It’s appointment viewing for me, and I watch maybe half a dozen shows per season of TV. I don’t watch anything that doesn’t thoroughly entertain me, and GoT does.

  79. tysnow
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    I apologize Mr. Cogman for all the rude web dicks, trolls and bottom feeders who were disrespectful and hateful to you for your outstanding work on GoT, because it didn’t adhere to their personal viewpoints on how the adaption should proceed.
    You have done a high quality professional service to the show and the true fans of the series (both versions), and the creator GRRM himself, for he has given his blessing and input for this adaption.
    Please don’t let this effect your continued great writing, and next season blow everyone away with the episodes that are intrusted to you. Hopefully D&D give you even more episodes, as yours have been among the better one’s (they are all great anyway).
    To bad they don’t give out a backtracing ping software, were the receipient or web master (WiC) can send back a tracer and ping the sender, thereby negating the jerks ability to ever email or twitter that person/site.

  80. ThePinkDragon
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Anyway, shaking my head all around, on all sides of this. That probably sounds arrogant/self-righteous, like I’m pretending to be above everything, but lord knows that I’ve had some of my minor beefs with the season and sent out some abrasive comments here I didn’t mean after a few minutes of cooldown.

    Everything that’s gone on this year here in the comments has been ridiculous, however, from every standpoint.

    We’re still not the most negative fandom I’ve been in, but we really need to show some solidarity. We all basically like the same fucking thing and I don’t see why we can’t be respectful towards each other. Go on the TWOP forums — there are absolutely 0 weird, petulant upsets. People agree to disagree. Those that don’t like the show anymore say why and then don’t talk about it ever again. No one sticks around to troll and flame.

    From now on I’m staying polite no matter what goes on, even in the face of the more aggressive commentators. If I think the show is starting to suck, I’ll try to explain in a kind way, without sweeping generalizations and ad hominem attacks. If I don’t, I’ll yay and squee with the rest of you and Bob’s your uncle.

    It’s really, really, really not worth it to get this worked up over a television show or book series.

    To preempt the ‘ass-kisser’ accusations: there have been some episodes that have garnered from me a big resounding Meh, and I’m still not wholly positive I like this season nearly as much as the last one. But is it still good television? Hell yeah. Y’all could be watching fucking Glee.

  81. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Vanderhook,

    Yeah, let’s just enjoy the moment. Clearly doesn’t recognize the fact.

    Don’t try to fight it, DB. You know it’s true. No matter how right you want to be you can’t change someone’s feelings.

  82. Bobben
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Once again, the loud minority trolls reaches through with their insults. Go **** yourselves is what I would like to say to them. But hey, Bryan, the good thing is they really are a small minority of sad and miserable people who use several different names and accounts to make it seem like there are more of them than it accually is. The vast majority of fans (and new viewers) respect your hard work and like what you deliver.

  83. sbj2k1
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Bryan: Words are wind. But too much of it will wear you out. Good thing for you to take a break from the haters. Gotta do what makes you happy and keeps you positive. No need to waste your energy on useless stuff. You’re the pro in this. Don’t let ‘em make you think otherwise. Cheers.

  84. Shinyteapot
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    While I don’t use twitter, it’s a shame to see anyone pushed away from something if they enjoy it. The internet would be a much nicer place if we could air all disagreements in a calm and pleasant manner- nothing wrong with having disagreements of course, we can’t all think the same of everything!

    B Cogman,
    Your episodes this season and last are among my favourites. There’s more than enough to love about the show to make it worth overlooking the occasional decision I don’t like (and my opinion is by no means representative- others may love things I dislike) and many of the choices have been brilliant.

    It’s a great show, keep up the good work!

  85. Zack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    DB,

    It’s an unfortunate word choice. “Would it have killed them to use some other word?” That statement implies the writers chose ‘cunt’ over something else purely to denigrate women.

    It’s sexism, but it’s hardly deliberate. Lesson learned for the future, I hope, though.

  86. Katie
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    DB,

    A) He didn’t write this episode. I know Bryan is the only writer you (used to) have access to, but he didn’t write the line. If you’re going to snark, at least snark at the right person.

    B) Seriously, back off. You don’t own this series or these characters, you just get the opportunity to enjoy them once and a while. If you’re not enjoying them, don’t watch. The end.

    I’m a woman, and I don’t love the word cunt. That said, this scene didn’t irk me as much as it seemed to bother you. My reasons:

    1) It’s been established in this show that the word has more of the weight that it does in British slang than American slang. I choose to work with the established world, not against it. By the way, the word is still derogatory no matter where you’re from, but so is calling someone a twat, dick or a douche. Do you shy from those words?

    2) I’m not so married to every aspect of the book versions of these characters that I am going to throw a shit fit if something about them isn’t exactly the same. Look at the context of the scene, not the words used. Look at the character saying it: this is a strong ass woman who we know doesn’t shy from being what she is, but knows how to play the game too. One word in a thousand doesn’t change what she is.

    3) I’d rather get pissed and comment on serious issues, of which there are few because THIS IS A TV SHOW about an openly misogynistic world that features strong female characters who are happy to tell the conventions of their society to go fuck themselves if they want to get something done. I won’t clutch my pearls for the sake of clutching my pearls. It loses impact that way.

    If you can’t see the forest through the trees, this isn’t the show for you.

  87. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Glee just shot itself to hell. I remember when it was trending like Gaga. Then, just like Gaga, it became a parody of itself.

    I can see ass-kissing accusations being leveled at me too, but I was genuinely impressed by the flow of this season as it progressed. The major fan hang-ups of the season mostly didn’t register with me, and the show seemed much more organic than it was last season, especially considering how much more content there was. The first season, like the first book, has fewer players. I loved the new crop of personalities this season brought to the show. It gave the show more range.

    I have my sticking points like a good number of people, but like you, in the end, I just really enjoy myself. There’s no comparing with any other series out there. Like The Walking Dead (which I’m not so fond of, but it’s a similarly groundbreaking show), GoT is revising the definition of appointment television and adding to a rich modern tradition of Damned Good Television that picks up the slack of the cookie-cutter cinematic crap piles we see big studios optioning left and right.

  88. Carne
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Episode 3 has been my favorite episode so far :)

  89. sweetonsigmafilms
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Just missed him, dang it

    Bryan C if you ever read this, while you are part of a team & DD are the (often brilliant) head, you totally bring the heart and soul into the show many many times with your beautiful work, its so so much appreciated! Will miss tales of an amusing cafe ;0 but your own thoughts made freely on twitter will be missed more. Still, glad you will pop in here once in a while! :)

    Maybe one day he might rejoin or DD will join the tribe. It’s a great forum for engaging and believe the benefits still outweigh the negative. by. far. Still I fully understand while others stay away and dont blame those that have joined for later leaving. Imagine if Peter Jackson had been online during TTowers (Arwen much?) and god bless Damon Lindelof who probably holds the record for amount of troll bashing by anyone on Twitter from a massively popular show (esp during Lost’s final season eeeep!) LOL well he’s still here but still many days its a no win situation alas. Anyway, enjoyed the opportunity while we had it. Take care Bryan Cogman and roll on Blackwater!

  90. ser lyonel the laughing storm
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Really I just wish he wrote more than one episode a season they’ve both been great

  91. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    You’re doing great Brian – thanks for the interaction

  92. john
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Who can blame him? This show has the worst fans ever.

  93. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    I kind of already think they don’t think too highly of the book fanbase anyway

  94. JA
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I don’t blame him but I do wonder what he was expecting with Twitter in the first place. Some people can just ignore trolls and others can’t. I doubt I could in his situation.

    There’s no point in ‘apologizing’ for the trolls- fans have no responsibility for them and it’s just a reality of the internet.

  95. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    BC wrote some solid GoT episodes and I applaud him for it. Hope he sticks around here and makes a comment now and then.

    Oh, the internet. Sometimes it is best to take a step back from the internet goings-on and take a look at it from a distance, calmly. I mean, the internet troll is not a new thing. It is an unfortunate bi product of the freedom and anonymity of the internet. When you are present on the net, you should try to accept that trolls will be there, and that they will annoy you if you let them. But there is nothing to be done except ignoring them. Swat at them all you like, but it will only encourage them. So, I advise all of you to start taking responsibility and not feed the trolls. Keep discussing whatever you want to discuss. Make your points and respond only to those people whose opinions and way of expressing themselves you can respect. Don’t get carried away trying to fight trolls directly. Please just ignore them.

    Sometimes, like with the case of Mr Cogman’s twitter, the above mentioned tactic of ignoring the trolls simply is not enough. This is too bad, but what else is there to do really? A million screaming BC supporters will not chase the trolls away.

    Keep calm. Move on to happier things.

  96. RobTheGood
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    I can’t remember who it was, but someone on this site suggested (maybe a few weeks back?) that this series is no longer an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire, but a poor rip-off that happens to use the same names and locations.

    i just don’t get it. There’s nothing i despise more than book “purists”. It’s embarrassing for the medium. In my opinion the definition suggests they shouldn’t be watching the show, as a true purist would only accept this story to be told on the page.

    either way, i’ll still lurk around these sites the odd time, but my enthusiasm from following the online fan support before the first season has long since been buried under the juvenile whining and ignorance of people who can’t appreciate the show for what it is.

    Keep up the good work, WiC.

  97. funlight
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Big up to Cogman — thanks for your hard work!

  98. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Wait, were people holding Cogman accountable for a word used in an episode he didn’t write? That doesn’t even bear addressing. So silly.

  99. Texty
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    I, for one, will dearly miss Bryan on Twitter. Though I totally get it. Having waded through the cesspool that is the comments on the official FB account, there be dragons out there in this fandom. And not the cute little kind. I’m talking big, ugly suckers who barf fire all over everything. I have enormous respect for Bryan putting up with as much of it as he did.

    Re: Book purism. There are plenty of non-reader fans who are jerks (see: aforementioned FB comments) and there are also some reader fans who clearly aren’t as informed as they think they are (see: Renly’s NAWT GAYY!! etc.) I think the Lannister’s share of book and non-book are fine.

    I do, however, think that some of the purists simply don’t get what it takes to turn such an incredibly dense source into 10 hours of TV. Were there unnecessary or head-scratcher changes (see: Dany’s storyline, Yara/Asha)? Of course. Are there frustrating things that I can’t figure out a good reason for (see: more gender/sexuality parity in terms of nudity)? Absolutely.

    But the vast majority of things that I’ve seen people complain about are things that simply weren’t going to be possible on a 10-episode TV budget. Peter Jackson only barely managed to do 10 hours of LOTR on double the budget. That this show has been so fantastically rendered so far is an amazing feat, and I wish more people realized just how amazing it is.

    FWIW, that admonishment goes for some non-book readers, too. I’ve seen people complaining that the story is “boring” or doesn’t have enough action. A) The best stories are about people, not stuff blowing up. B) Large-scale battle scenes simply aren’t logistically possible for this show.

    Bottom line: reader or non-reader, if you don’t like the show, don’t watch it. Badgering the hardworking folks who make it doesn’t change anything, and only makes you look like an idiot who understands nothing about how the entertainment biz actually works.

  100. Texty
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    One other thing to note re: TV logistics:

    Remember, GRRM used to write for TV. He knows exactly what’s necessary, and of course he’s going to approve any changes necessary for those limitations. If you don’t trust D&D or Bryan (etc.), then at least trust him. Sheesh.

  101. Remaal
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Now that you’ve survived the salt and steel of the twitter whale, may you rise again harder and stronger.

    Cheers, Bryan, and fare-thee-well.

  102. oh-bb
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    B Cogman,

    I wonder what that reasoning was I really do. And I love how you said “she used it on a man.” You realize that the use of the ‘cunt’ as an insult has immense sexist and misogynistic implications no matter who says it to whom. Just because she said it to a man doesn’t make it any less sexist. The Yara I know from the books is one of the only characters that realizes the sexism behind that word, one of te only characters that can be interpreted as an actual feminist in this series. Would it have killed you to have her use a different insult?

    I have rather a lot to say in response to this, and I’m not sure where to start. I suppose with a look at the actual moment in the show.

    For one, our take on the word cunt is not Westerosi interpretation. If we want to deeply analyze the show and characters, or the books and characters, we have to leave certain things at the door. Cultural interpretation and nuance should be one of them.

    Does that mean cunt doesn’t have some implications in the show? Sure. But show-Westeros is a deeply misogynistic society. Women are property. Women in the Iron Islands are either salt wives or breeding fodder. Yara is a true anomaly, created by circumstance after her father lost all his sons. I’ll return to this in a moment.

    Second, public Yara and private Yara are two different creatures. Public Yara called Theon a cunt in front of her men, for at least two reasons (perhaps more). One, she wanted something that would penetrate his thick skull. Theon doesn’t listen, except perhaps to Dagmer, or maybe he listens too much, but she wanted him to hear her and understand that he had engaged in a serious of dire mistakes. Second, it’s a show for her men. To successfully operate in the man’s world of Westeros, it seems, you have to lay your identity as a woman aside. See also Brienne; see also Arya, who didn’t stop dressing as a boy when it was discovered she was a girl. She kept her boys’ clothes and was quiet and proper among the men, like a squire. Like Pod, perhaps. And in the right moments, she was brash and bold. Like a boy, though of course we know Tywin compared her to young Cersei.

    Still, Yara has a front to keep up. She is cold and confident and capable and her men must always see her as a leader, and they must further see her as the leader they expect. What would another (male) captain have said to Theon? Probably would have called him a cunt.

    Private Yara was different, tender, loving, sad. She wants to save her brother. If she’d called him a cunt in that moment, it would have been wildly different. Note that she didn’t.

    Lastly, I’d like to look at show Yara and book Asha. There’s some indication in your post that book Asha is a high model of feminism and I vehemently disagree. Book Asha is perhaps more fun than show Yara, but overall, as a woman in particular, I much, much prefer Yara. Yara is bold, capable, every inch the successful reaver and captain. She has earned her place, her men, and her respect by being GOOD at what she does, and by simply being comfortable in that role. Asha always struck me as a little girl playing at being a man. Playfulness thinly layered over what may be defensiveness, trading on her sexiness, every inch the lusty pirate wench, pulling daggers out of her bosom, for heaven’s sake. Yara doesn’t need these tricks. Yara hardly needs to carry a damn weapon. Yara has a stare that could bring a man to his knees, and not because of her heaving bosom. Because she is a goddamned reaver and she will take what is hers. Asha lacks some of that confidence and instead has only bravado. So please, let’s not hold her up as some paradigmatic emblem of feminism. She is trying; she is even succeeding, but she’s doing it as much with her “tits” and her “cunt” as she is her axes. Yara needs no such trappings, and I believe her men would follow her anywhere.

  103. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I agree, I’m not sure how these kind of people function in life. It appears Bronn was right.

  104. Jack Slap
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Dick:
    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    Your post did kinda suck.. Good riddance to it.

  105. HouseLark
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    I wrote in the other thread that the big problem here is not criticism or feedback, it’s having people call you a dick and telling you that you are work is garbage in those terms. No one should have to put up with that for doing their job. Then there’s the other part of me that knows the informal rules of the internet which is that if you want to interact then you have to take the brickbats that inevitably come your way. What can you do?

    I hope that members of the production will feel that WiC.net is a place where they can interact with fans who are generally very respectful even in their criticism.

  106. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Jordan Healey:
    I kind of already think they don’t think too highly of the book fanbase anyway

    I’m curious at why you think this.

  107. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    People are just dickheads nowadays. It wasn’t socially acceptable to bash everything when I was a kid. People disliked shows and stories and what not, just as they always have, they just wouldn’t go up to the writer’s face (or anonymously on the internet) and tell them how much they hated it. Why not? Because it’s rude, and awkward, and confrontational, and self-important, and pointless, etc.. And, they wouldn’t want someone to trash something they had worked on. It was called “common courtesy”.

    That used to be the social norm, but now these “ballsy” critics think it’s “cowardly” to show good taste and refrain from confronting someone for having failed to amuse them. It’s their “freedom of speech”. And I’d say, while you are technically free to be a douchebag, there used to be a time when people had a little more self-respect than that.

  108. Ed
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    God I wish there were more people like you and I.

    Beth:
    New to Twitter and ASoIAF just finished ACoK I’m ok with the changes, I’m not hardcore and nit pick every detail. I like the books I like the show.

  109. Don Gentry
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Dick,

    Dick, you are aptly named.

  110. lasadorian
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Dick,

    How did the last episode suck? I just don’t get people who were unhappy about seeing great scenes. Cersie thinking she has Tyrions whore. Oona Chaplin hotness ( a window into his world that we were deprived of in the book ). Great scenes with theon. This episode was one of my favorites of the season because i know what is coming. But talking with my folks who never read a thing they completely loved the episode. They were so happy bran was alive. The series put just enough doubt in the minds of people that yes it could be bran and rickon above that gate that people worried. Everything they knew said don’t believe it but because its game of thrones it could just be them.

    People enjoy the show. It might not be here forever… But since its here now enjoy it.

  111. lasadorian
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    People are just dickheads nowadays. It wasn’t socially acceptable to bash everything when I was a kid. People disliked shows and stories and what not, just as they always have, they just wouldn’t go up to the writer’s face (or anonymously on the internet) and tell them how much they hated it. Why not? Because it’s rude, and awkward, and confrontational, and self-important, and pointless, etc.. And, they wouldn’t want someone to trash something they had worked on. It was called “common courtesy”.

    That used to be the social norm, but now these “ballsy” critics think it’s “cowardly” to show good taste and refrain from confronting someone for having failed to amuse them. It’s their “freedom of speech”. And I’d say, while you are technically free to be a douchebag, there used to be a time when people had a little more self-respect than that.

    Excellent Post. Internet Douchebags, Grammer Police, and Nerds that hide behind a keyboard are the worst.

  112. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    If a man gives all the bawling rats in King’s Landing a bowl of Weasel Soup, it and its friends will then ask a man for dipping sticks.

    Try to please everybody and you’ll still end up with something nasty strewn over your face. GoT is easily the best ASOIAF adaptation of any kind available. It was always strange seeing how GRRM licensed off the rights to various ASOIAF products every this way and that, but HBO was the real prize of the pile as its output breathes and talks and roars with a life second only to the novels, to its considerable credit.

    oh-bb,

    Goodness, thank you for saying what I couldn’t find the words to say. Lusty pirate wench versus through-and-through reaver. I’ve come to love Yara over Asha despite my early concerns. She actually strikes me as Ironborn whereas Asha has a certain vanity to her that verged on a compensating arrogance. Yara seems to be in total control of her domain, which I love.

  113. Corpses Buggered
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    “I’ve always hated Twitter, takes too little to troll.”

  114. Nicole
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    No offense, but you gotta have tougher skin to work on a project like this. There’s no crying in Westeros. (Remember that for the show too!)

  115. RogueEntity
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Dick:
    The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    Username says it all…

  116. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    DB: B Cogman, I wonder what that reasoning was I really do. And I love how you said “she used it on a man.” You realize that the use of the ‘cunt’ as an insult has immense sexist and misogynistic implications no matter who says it to whom. Just because she said it to a man doesn’t make it any less sexist. The Yara I know from the books is one of the only characters that realizes the sexism behind that word, one of te only characters that can be interpreted as an actual feminist in this series. Would it have killed you to have her use a different insult?

    Maybe she should have called him a pussy?

  117. Tanya Perry
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    I can totally understand why he wouldn’t be on Twitter – him or almost anyone involved with any large production. Writers especially are prickly people though – they deal less with people and their rudeness than actors, musicians, etc.

    The point I keep thinking as I watch this season and recognize the changes is, “It’s slightly different, sure, but that’s interesting also.” I’m not a book purist. I think if GRRM wanted a carbon copy of his books, he’d have forced the issue a lot more. There are characters I like in the books that for some reason cannot stand on the TV show, and so forth.

    TV (and film all together) is a different medium anyhow – in books we get to know what people are thinking, on a screen the actor can only do so much with a facial expression. So when you write for the two different mediums, you’re going to end up with different things, and I think realizing that – well, all of the writers involved (INCLUDING GRRM) changed things up some.

    The people freaking out about all of it and being nasty are ridiculous. If they’re all that frothed about anything, they can and should go write their own books and then write the screenplay for the book, AND get published. If not, really, I think it’s time for them to put up or shut up. Stories, in all forms, told even in different ways, are amazing things, and respecting good storytelling in ANY form is something everyone should keep in mind. But then they that can’t do, teach (or at least criticize).

    I hope Mr. Cogman continues with a wonderful writing career, and of course all best wishes for GRRM – and thanks to all of them for creating such amazing worlds to escape into!

  118. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Jordan Healey: I kind of already think they don’t think too highly of the book fanbase anyway

    Gee, I wonder why.

  119. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Nicole: No offense, but you gotta have tougher skin to work on a project like this. There’s no crying in Westeros. (Remember that for the show too!)

    He didn’t cry, he said “Screw this shit” and bailed due to annoyance with morons. Twitter’s a choice, not a requirement, if he bailed on the show due to criticism you’d have a point.

  120. oh-bb
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Agreed, I’ve come to like her MUCH better!

  121. Zack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: He didn’t cry, he said “Screw this shit” and bailed due to annoyance with morons. Twitter’s a choice, not a requirement, if he bailed on the show due to criticism you’d have a point.

    Yeah. He says up front, respectful critiques are welcome. How can they learn one thing from “This show sucks and you guys are assholes for ruining ASoIaF.”?

    You have to be specific and constructive. And politeness will help anyone be listened to.

  122. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb,

    For one, our take on the word cunt is not Westerosi interpretation. If we want to deeply analyze the show and characters, or the books and characters, we have to leave certain things at the door. Cultural interpretation and nuance should be one of them.

    Cultural interpretation of the word cunt as an insult varies amongst cultures is basically what you are telling me, and that in the case of this scene it was appropriately used. Please tell me your interpretation of the word cunt in your culture and how it contributes to your point at all, I would really love to know.

    Does that mean cunt doesn’t have some implications in the show? Sure. But show-Westeros is a deeply misogynistic society. Women are property. Women in the Iron Islands are either salt wives or breeding fodder. Yara is a true anomaly, created by circumstance after her father lost all his sons. I’ll return to this in a moment.

    I’m not arguing against this at all; Westors is a deeply misogynistic environment.

    Second, public Yara and private Yara are two different creatures

    We’re talking about a show here. All of Yara is public Yara.

    Public Yara called Theon a cunt in front of her men, for at least two reasons (perhaps more). One, she wanted something that would penetrate his thick skull. Theon doesn’t listen, except perhaps to Dagmer, or maybe he listens too much, but she wanted him to hear her and understand that he had engaged in a serious of dire mistakes.

    The same effect could have been accomplished with the use of a different insult. I really don’t see how you think her calling him a cunt makes him realize the direness of the situation he’s gotten himself in. What does a female genital organ have to do with it.

    Second, it’s a show for her men. To successfully operate in the man’s world of Westeros, it seems, you have to lay your identity as a woman aside.

    LOL This is the difference between Asha and Yara. I have come to the conclusion that these two characters are completely separate entities and that Asha simply does not exist on this show. It seems you need some convincing as to why Asha is written by GRRM as a feminist in the books. Feminism means wanting equality between men and women. You say Asha always struck you as a little girl playing at being a man and then ALSO say that she uses her heaving bosom and sexuality as ‘trappings’ to assert herself. Do you realize your contradictions here? The thing about Asha is that she does use her feminine traits to her advantage! In front of her men! She is basically telling these men that she doesn’t need to undermine her gender to gain their respect, actively reminding motherfuckers that she IS, indeed, a woman and in control. In the books, she does not act like a man to gain respect; she acts like a woman who knows her weapons (all of them) and THAT is feminism. Peace.

    Also, this wasn’t event the biggest problem I had with the episode lol. And another thing, backing off is just not my style when it comes to this series. I know Cogman didn’t write this episode but he has influence, so I’m hoping these writers realize the book fans are the majority of people watching this show, and the people who haven’t read books are beginning to pick them up. The more closely they stick to the books, which are already fantastically written and don’t need any changes to begin with, the better.

  123. WompWomp
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Tanya Perry,

    GRRM couldn’t have pressed the issue very much if the show were to be made at all. No one on TV would treat with him or any writer on such restrictive terms. I posted the Authors@Google interview he did last year on another comment thread. Basically he says as the showrunners, D&D are the ones we should thank for the series’ considerable fidelity to the books. They aren’t contractually obligated to him to go in that direction. He’s a consultant according to his contract. His chief reason for choosing HBO is their resources and freedom to include the more divisive content in the novels that he found to be critical to the series’ integrity.

    Check out the interview at the 32:30 mark for his two cents.

    DB,

    Hey DB! Great to see you around! By the way, you’ve totally lost your credibility and I’ll take your username as my cue to skip over whatever you’ve insight you’ve deigned to grace us with. Happy trails, dude.

  124. Kneeling Knight
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Bryan thank you for the effort you have made to interact with fans, I think it’s fragging awesome!
    Secondly thank you for the passion you and the two D’s bring to the show. Although I don’t like all the changes made from the book, its still the best tv show I have ever seen!
    Thridly respect for being the Game of Thrones encyclopedia #nottheeasiestjobintheworld

  125. The Kingslayer
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Frankly the writers only have themselves to blame, season one was almost a perfect adaptation but this season they’ve went to town with changes and created alot of unnecessary scenes/characters. For example the Lannister guards farting…..I mean seriously that’s just lazy and childish.

  126. daprosinik
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,

    A way of humanizing the common Lannister soldier in order to make Talissa criticism to Robb for valid. It is as simple as that.

  127. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    wow i wish credibility was as precious to me as it is to you lol and don’t lie, I know you read it ;)

  128. Cheeze
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Even if a fan hates the way GoT has adapted the novels, it’s never okay to be rude and talk sh*t to another person. It’s called “basic human descency”. People in the public eye are still human beings and deserve respect.

  129. Adam Roberts
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Twitter? what is twitter?

  130. Mike
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,

    That scene only lasted less than 10 seconds. Get over yourself.

  131. Dickon Manwoody
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Some changes are understandable. Others are directly insulting to viewer intelligence.

    This part might be boring so we’ll add some tits.

    Viewers are too stupid/deaf to distinguish between Arya and Asha.

  132. Mike
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    What makes you think that book readers are the majority? What empirical data substantiates that claim? So the success of the show is dependent on placating people like you, as opposed to the general television audience?

  133. Jack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    I find it funny that people are attacking you for having a very valid opinion on the use of the word “cunt.” It has nothing to do with it being misogynistic or sexist because Cersei uses that word and she’s a woman. It has to do with the character who used it. Asha, or Yara on the show, specifically says she hates that word in ADWD. She is the only female character to lament the use of that word. And then the show has her call her brother that word. It’s one word, but it says a lot about the character. It’s shoddy work. Much like Karstark making mention of the Father, which Cogman did say was a mistake on their part. But if he could own up to that being a mistake, then why not own up to Yara using that word being a mistake? And saying he didn’t write the episode has nothing to do with it since he admitted to the Kartstark thing being a “fail.” Poor characterization goes both ways.

    I just wish he had responded better than “She said it to a man” as if that makes it all better, or fits with the character at all. It doesn’t.

  134. The Winter Rose
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    People are just dickheads nowadays. It wasn’t socially acceptable to bash everything when I was a kid. People disliked shows and stories and what not, just as they always have, they just wouldn’t go up to the writer’s face (or anonymously on the internet) and tell them how much they hated it. Why not? Because it’s rude, and awkward, and confrontational, and self-important, and pointless, etc.. And, they wouldn’t want someone to trash something they had worked on. It was called “common courtesy”.

    That used to be the social norm, but now these “ballsy” critics think it’s “cowardly” to show good taste and refrain from confronting someone for having failed to amuse them. It’s their “freedom of speech”. And I’d say, while you are technically free to be a douchebag, there used to be a time when people had a little more self-respect than that.

    Exactly! And because the younger generation is emersed in the internet, you see things like proper behavior and common curtsey dimishing face-to-face, in real life as well as online. It’s really sad.

    I feel bad for the writer, but it was a wise move for him to remove himself from being so “connected” to the fanbase. It really does interfere with the creative process. He, nor any writer (or artist) need that kind of pressure from such rude naysayers.

  135. scott glennon
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    You gotta do what you gotta do, brother. The quality of your work supersedes an internet gadget.
    For Winterfell!

  136. Mike
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Instead of whining take action people. If you don’t like what the writers are doing to the show but you don’t want to stop watching then write to HBO and do something. This is why my non-book reader friends hate fantasy fans, they’re a bunch of petulant nerds who constantly complain but aren’t man enough to do anything. The purists that pervade this site and Westeros.org easily fit that profile.

  137. LordStarkington
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Asha doesn’t say she specifically hates the word in ADWD. What she says is (Very mild spoilers)

    “Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued.”

    She doesn’t comment on it when Morgan Liddle calls her a cunt in battle (only to bemusedly note he apologizes for it later and not for trying to split her head open; she gives no indication at all that she was horribly offended by it or hates Morgan Liddle for saying it.

    It’s not that she likes people using the word or anything, but it’s also not that she flips out because “she’s put up with misogyny her entire life” as some tumblr commentators seem to think. She hates how some men use it.

    I actually would have preferred they used another term (Also because they overused c*** in this episode and it just didn’t sound right in the context of an Asha-Theon conversation to me), but I’m not going to launch diatribes online about it.

  138. The Sweetling
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Thats a shame…People who dislike the show need to relax, sorry if its not all they thought it should be. Good luck to Bryan in the future.

  139. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Mike: Instead of whining take action people. If you don’t like what the writers are doing to the show but you don’t want to stop watching then write to HBO and do something. This is why my non-book reader friends hate fantasy fans, they’re a bunch of petulant nerds who constantly complain but aren’t man enough to do anything. The purists that pervade this site and Westeros.org easily fit that profile.

    So real men write strongly worded letters, is that it?

  140. ghostwriterxx
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    I’m going to miss the coffee shop tales…but i totally understand. Too bad there are immature people out there who think because they are behind a computer screen they can be jerks to anyone and everyone. This is the sad part of the internet.

    As for the show, i’m loving it changes and all. In some ways it excites me because i’m trying to figure out where they’re going to go with it. My only complaint is that the season is almost over :( which means a long wait…but i’m looking forward to next season…
    ok..i’m rambling

  141. Richard
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    I’m a big Tolkien fan and followed the production of The Lord of the Rings movies obsessively from 1997-2003, and am used to this kind of fanatically purist stuff. Book. Movies. Two separate things, different mediums and neither cancels the other out.

    Good thing TWITTER wasn’t around back then and lucky for A Song of Ice & Fire fans getting 10 hours of content for each book (and eventually 10 hours of content for 1/2 a book) instead of 3. And uncensored, to boot! (not that Tolkien’s stuff was risqué or violent!)

    Lucky you didn’t get Legend of the Seeker or Legend of Earthsea. That would have learned ya.

  142. LordStarkington
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Jack:
    DB,
    . Much like Karstark making mention of the Father, which Cogman did say was a mistake on their part.

    Where did he say that about Karstark (not that I don’t believe you, just wanted to confirm it for the sake of internet points over on Westeros).

  143. Macha
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    *sigh* Fart jokes are one of the oldest forms of humor. What some call ‘lazy and childish’, I call realistic. Ugh, if it’s one thing I hate, it’s snobbery.

  144. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    He said it the latest book reader episode review. Just hit go there and hit control f and search B Cogman.

  145. charles
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    This is why showrunners/writers/ and anyone involved in the creative process should not actively mingle with fans online. There will be feedback, and more often than not negative feedback. By distancing yourself from it all, you can have a clear head as you go forward. If you’re in the thick of things, you’ll get drowned.

    You shoudn’t have to defend your decisions. Face it, fans are NOT going to like everything. Fans so involved like ASOIF fans might not even like ANYTHING. That’s the nature of the beast.

  146. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Macha,

    There were no farts in Westeros! People just didn’t fart there. You’re not a true fan, Macha. Shame on you.

  147. Jack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    On twitter. Someone pointed it out to him and he admitted to it being a mistake with the hashtag #fail

  148. Arya Dunyett
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    I don’t tweet. So I wasn’t aware that Mr. Cogman was involved in a close personal if online relationship with many of the series’/books’ fans. What a cool guy! But I’d heard that he was crazy busy writing and editing GoT as well as acclimating himself to new fatherhood. How was there time in his sleep-deprived life? He must be a gregarious and generous soul.

    I only know of him from his online interviews and the HBO season 1 notes, and from that utterly joyful photo taken last year of him jamming with Momoa at an Irish pub. He looks like a large-brained, bewhiskered nebbish high on life and a few Guinnesses.

    I’m sorry that this bright, thoughtful man has been so abused by the hobgoblins that contaminate our fandom. I’m concerned that reality bites such a sweet person. Familiarity breeds contempt, perhaps. Anonymity breeds animosity?

    I know that many of the show’s reps read the boards so are privy not just to the praise, but to the slings and arrows aimed in their general direction. I’ve always supposed that their own anonymity provided some protection.

    Though the harmful tweets that wounded Bryan were directed at him personally (apparently despite the fact that he is responsible for little or none of the alleged problems) this depressing incident has made me realize the damage I may have unwittingly caused someone who read comments I’ve made over the months. Too mean-spirited. Makes me think of that old coaches’ dig: Those who can’t do – teach. In my case: those who can’t do – criticize. I must be vigilant and more thoughtful in future.

    Our beloved source material is being so gently and responsibly adapted by the very best minds in the business. I just pray their determination and energy hold out till the story is done, and that they can ignore the crap thrown by the wretched, but few, trolls who lurk under the bridge.

  149. Freoduwebbe
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    DB,
    Curious here. Why is cunt any different than dick? Both are the equivalent of stupid…

    Ihave far more objections to words which have no gender equivalencies .

  150. Bobbulla
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    I’m sorry for Bryan personally but it’s not a surprise really. Some of the choices they made this season are destroying the fanbase. Most of the readers are pissed for one dumb change or another, the critism is affecting even the non readers (see Larry). They need to go back on track next season

  151. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer: Frankly the writers only have themselves to blame, season one was almost a perfect adaptation but this season they’ve went to town with changes and created alot of unnecessary scenes/characters. For example the Lannister guards farting…..I mean seriously that’s just lazy and childish.

    Even Shakespeare knew to throw in some lowbrow humor for the masses in between serious scenes.

    And c’mon, who doesn’t like a good fart joke? Especially just prior to a fatal direwolf mauling.

  152. Freoduwebbe
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Mr Cogman
    Thank you for your part in this wonder that is game of thrones.
    Sorry that the trolls went after you, but yep..twitter is a time suck.

  153. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Bobbulla: I’m sorry for Bryan personally but it’s not a surprise really. Some of the choices they made this season are destroying the fanbase. Most of the readers are pissed for one dumb change or another, the critism is affecting even the non readers (see Larry). They need to go back on track next season

    By “most of the readers” can I assume you mean “me and the people I talk to who agree with me”? Because I follow many different sites featuring viewer opinions, and I’ve seen no signs of overwhelming disapproval (or approval for that matter), opinions vary widely among readers and non-readers alike.

  154. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Well, here’s a shorter version of what I posted in a previous thread:

    I loved Cogman’s work, and the close interaction he maintained with the fans, but this is probably why very few producers/writers/actors keep such a close relationship with the fanbase. As Story Editor, Bryan got a lot of flack over any mistakes he made… but for the most part, they were very understandable and minor. And honestly, which one of us is confident that they could do a better job? I feel like I know these novels pretty well, but I guarantee that if I was Story Editor, I would make FAR worse mistakes than giving a character the wrong gods, or pronouncing a name incorrectly.

    Also, I hope Bryan remembers that his own episode (#3 this season) was one of the best received. I actually hope Cogman writes more episodes in future seasons (at least 3 per season, instead of the current 1). I actually think he might be the best writer on the show right now. (Besides GRRM, of course).

    Lastly, I see that Larry Williams posted a link to this on his own facebook page, and says “Looks like I haven’t been the only one”. Whether or not you like Larry, I have a gut feeling that he’s probably going to stop watching/reviewing the show very soon. Along with recently forcing Pearson Moore to stop posting his essays here on WiC, we seem to just be driving people away left and right. If this vocal minority of angry, rude “fans” is trying to drive away viewers and get the show cancelled, they’re off to a good start.

  155. Macha
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Hi-Fi:
    Macha,

    There were no farts in Westeros! People just didn’t fart there. You’re not a true fan, Macha. Shame on you.

    You’re right, sadly I got all my education from Beavis & Butthead, and my second favourite show, Terence & Phillip. ;)

  156. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Bobbulla,

    The majority of viewers are non-book readers. They’re enjoying the story for what it is and not comparing it ad-nauseum to the source text.

    And I still don’t get how can anyone take Larry’s “reviews” seriously. He’s just one person, by the way, and he DEFINITELY doesn’t represent all non readers viewers.

  157. Mike
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Write letters, call them up, petitions, etc. Do something proactive buddy.

  158. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Freoduwebbe,

    Well the word ‘dick’ as an insult isnt used anywhere on the show but you want my personal opinion I feel similarly about the use of the word ‘dick’ as an insult as I do of the word ‘cunt’ because they are equally stupid.

  159. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Jack,

    I could kiss you right now as Stannis’ men wanted to kiss Davos when he brought his onions. Thank you for this. This show is about the characters.

  160. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    The Winter Rose,

    I don’t think it has so much to do with kids having access to the internet instead of face to face conversations. I didn’t learn manners from interacting with people face to face. I learned manners from my parents. When I acted inappropriately they corrected me on it. Heck, by the time I would have been old enough to use the internet on my own I had already been raised to be polite. I find that my generation and older tend to constantly act as if the internet, video games, etc. is this detrimental device for raising a proper child. People tend to romanticize their generations vs these young punks nowadays. It’s total nonsense in my opinion.

    If you really want to understand the deterioration of ethics and morality of society then you must delve much deeper than that. I’m not going to launch into a philosophical or economic debate on here but if you are interested at all in understanding this problem from another sides prospective I can recommend some fantastic books. The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek, The Ethics of Liberty by Murray Rothbard, and anything from Jeffrey Tucker on these kind of issues like this article http://mises.org/daily/3984/How-to-Improve-the-Culture

    Economics, economic history, philosophy, logic, etc. is my passion so please excuse my diatribes when I feel compelled to respond to an issue that is up my wheel house but doesn’t apply to GoT.

  161. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    DB: Freoduwebbe, Well the word ‘dick’ as an insult isnt used anywhere on the show but you want my personal opinion I feel similarly about the use of the word ‘dick’ as an insult as I do of the word ‘cunt’ because they are equally stupid.

    Methinks you’re missing the point of an insult.

  162. cranscape
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    It’s cool that he made himself available to fans as much as he did. That is a rare privilege. I’ve been able to talk to authors, athletes, and artists on twitter and it really is a unique thing to have that kind of access to people normally out of reach. Unfortunately that kind of access really is almost always abused.

    Being one of the few members of the show allowing that much fan interaction means all the gripes go straight to him. When will fandom learn? Probably never since the internet seems to make tough guys and experts out of everyone. This is why we can’t have nice things.

    It isn’t his job to learn how to “deal with it”. His job is to work on the show and he was trying to do above and beyond that by being the fan friendly one using twitter. Twitter is supposed to be fun and if it became something else then he did the only smart thing. Ignoring and blocking doesn’t actually work when every time you log in you see a new nastigram waiting for you. It just puts you off. So thanks for staying around as long as you did. Hopefully there will be more moderated fan interactions and QAs so we can still get some of the insider information and personal touches.

  163. LordDavos12
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    As others have said, it’s really a shame how some people can ruin the fun. This is why we can’t have nice things! If Bryan is still skimming through this, I hope he knows that the majority of fans (both books and television) are grateful for his work.

    Dick: The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    Dick, Dick, it rhymes with prick.

  164. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,

    The writers have themselves to blame for some fans be petulant pricks? The problem isn’t people having complaints. Those are going to happen no matter what they do. For example, Lex, who I usually agree with, hated the Talisa/Robb stuff and I loved it. How do they please both of us in this scenario? The Dany scenes tend to be very bland to me, although they don’t upset me, but others really like them. You can’t please all of the people all the time. I seem to remember complaining going on during their almost perfect adaptation, as you call it, of season 1.

  165. dizzy_34
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Coming from a person who only signed up for twitter to post on this site, I say good on you B. Cog! Twitter sucks.

  166. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Methinks I would enjoy grabbing a beer with this guy.

  167. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Bobbulla,

    Hmm… Do you feel destroyed fan base? I think the only way we can really judge that statement is to look at the ratings. Yep, as I thought, steady as can be. Maybe we have different definitions of what destroying the fan base means.

  168. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Steven Swanson, Methinks I would enjoy grabbing a beer with this guy.

    I thought the same reading your post right above mine. ;-)

  169. Really?
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    HE didn’t use the insult. HE DIDN’T WRITE THE EPISODE.

  170. Jack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    Good riddance to Larry Williams, tbh. His reviews have always struck me as very sexist and he has nothing of note to say. Why he is so popular is beyond me, but it’s usually the dudebros who like him so that’s probably why.

  171. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    As long as people are respectful, I think that’s part of the beauty of this series. Each character/storyline/scene has people who love it, and people who don’t. It would be so boring if everyone liked the same stuff.

    (P.S. Still not big on the Talisa scene, but it honestly wasn’t quite as bad on my re-watch) :)

  172. Greatjon
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Unfortunately, all fanbases have these sort of weirdly obsessive individuals, especially when it comes to book adaptations. I mean, really, giving a guy a hard time over a single silly word that he didn’t even write in a 10 hour series is get-laid-or-get-a-hobby levels of dumb. It makes me curious to hear what other gems of nerd entitlement he’s received over the last two seasons. Maybe he could collect them and put them in a coffee table book.

  173. Rygar
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    I wanted to wish my best to Mr Cogman but found out that this was a thread quibbling over cunts. My bad.

  174. dizzy_34
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Jack,

    It’s kind of like living vicariously through him and experiencing the story again from a fresh perspective. He had such a strong reaction to the first season that people just loved his enthusiasm. If that’s gone from his reviews (either positive or negative reactions) people see him as just another dude ranting his thoughts on the internet. This season he has kind of gone away from what made him popular with ASOIF fans to begin with. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong it’s just kind of the way he wants to go about things.

  175. MAC
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    It’s a shame that the best things draw the most devout fans who bitch the loudest when something isn’t perfect, and that the impersonal nature of the internet gives them license to spew their bile directly at the people doing the work. Way to punish quality, shitheads.

  176. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    Neither you nor Jack has made a case that Asha wouldn’t have used that word. Just projecting your own sentiments on to that character doesn’t make it actually true. In fact, it has already been shown that she has not expressed the feelings you and Jack attribute to her. Unless you have a counter to that then your whole argument is now severely lacking and based on a very strained interpretation.

    LordStarkington,

    “Cunt again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued.”

    She doesn’t comment on it when Morgan Liddle calls her a cunt in battle (only to bemusedly note he apologizes for it later and not for trying to split her head open; she gives no indication at all that she was horribly offended by it or hates Morgan Liddle for saying it.

    She says she finds it “odd” that men would try to insult women with the word. That sure seems to imply that she is not insulted by it. If anything she finds it a very weak insult because it seems to amuse her. That being the case, I find it very much in character for her to use this insult, that she finds ironic when men say it to women, back against them.

    Unless you have anything to present that came from Asha that contradicts the above then you have no legs to stand on here.

  177. Rygar
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    GRRM, if you are reading this, please have a”cunt” coming out of Asha’s mouth in the next book.

    And That’s What She Said.

  178. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Mike: If you don’t like what the writers are doing to the show but you don’t want to stop watching then write to HBO and do something.

    HBO will not pressure D&D or Alan Ball or anyone else to change their shows based on fan reaction. HBO would rather pull the plug and stay friends (“Luck”) than alienate talent in the industry; that’s its MO these days (not meddling) and, along with $$, that’s how it draws formerly untouchable talent to the HBO fold.

    This whole dynamic is step-for-step what fractured the True Blood fan base, as I tried to convince many of my fellow posters here last year. I was kindly told to “get a life,” as I recall, but GOT fans are now seeing the blowback that a high level of investment in a show brings. (And I believe it is different with an on-going show, since series fans—happy or not—know the show, unlike films, is a work in progress that can be changed.) Book fans start out as the cheerleaders for a show no one else has heard of. Showrunners depend on them to keep up the indispensable internet “buzz” and serve as disciples by bringing new fans into the fold, and in exchange offer them the appearance of ownership in the show’s success by making themselves available to the fandom, asking for casting input, etc. Most showrunners would kill for a fandom as devoted as is GRRM’s, but it’s showrunner nature once a show is successful to say, “Okay, let us drive now, you guys sit in the back and enjoy the scenery,” at a time when the fan base remains as invested as it has always been. Invested fans remain a show’s greatest ally, and if you don’t think so, go to some of the fan sites for mature shows like True Blood, whose fandom, first, split along the fault lines of books vs. show; then last year, along a second fault line splintering show fans and show haters so entirely that the three groups do not interact anywhere on the net and are slowly heading for the exits. The jury is out on whether this will finally affect ratings (we’ll see in a few weeks).

    Whether this is unavoidable or not, remains an open question. Personally, I separate critics who decry change for change sake from those who dislike the actualization of the show runners vision in general, since change for change’s sake invariably causes the greatest headaches down the road. Ask Alan Ball, who since S1 has moved TB so far away from the original material that internet buzz, book fans, and critical acclaim have all abandoned him and he’s turned his own show into a tired parody of itself.

    In response he has jumped ship rather than change. Thus pride goeth before a fall.

  179. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Jack,

    Yes, everyone who likes Larry is a “dudebros”. Since a man of your staggering intellect doesn’t like him, all intellectuals obviously shun him and only morons find enjoyment from him.

  180. Maester Victor
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb,

    oh bb that was an incredible description of Yara and Asha. I could not have even attempted to write that up. Thank you!

  181. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    The quote you just used goes against your argument lol. Note Asha’s use of the word ‘demean.’ I need say no more.

  182. the goat
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Way to go, douchebags!

    BCogs,
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  183. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    I did want to add, Bryan you are doing a terrific job (as is Vanessa Taylor) and I hope you are given more episodes to write in years to come. D&D have many strengths and will always be acknowledged as the ones who brought the show to life. Episode writing may not be their very, very strongest suit and, if they are wise, they will delegate more of it to able folks such as yourselves. A TV series is a marathon, not a sprint, and your interaction with the fandom has been a model for other show staffs to emulate if they want loyal (if not always entirely satisfied) fans long-term.

  184. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    She said that she finds it odd that they use the word to demean women. Demean in that sentence is describing the intent of the use of the word by men and not the affect it had on her. If you can’t understand why that difference has importance in this discussion then I’ll know full well not to waste my time with further discussion.

  185. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Since we’re so far off topic, I just wanna say I’m loving TV Yara (Gemma Whalen).

    She’s been great in every scene, and I think I find her more realistic than book Asha. I can actually believe that tought ironborn men would follow this TV Yara.

  186. Maester Victor
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    A huge “thank you” to Bryan Cogman for doing such a stellar job! Forget about the jerks.

  187. purplejilly
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    There once was a writer named Bryan
    Whose hobby was coffee shop spyin’
    He’d regale us with tales
    Of nerds very pale
    And the girls to which they were lyin’

    But alas, no more will he tweet
    Because some GoT fans did browbeat
    And complained on the Twitter
    Of story changes so bitter
    ‘’til he threw his laptop in defeat

    “Enough, you nit-picking numskulls!”
    Said the scribe as he hash -tagged his last words
    “I’m tired of the crying,
    I’ve got episodes that need writing!”
    So he left, from those few tweet’n turds

    And it’s our loss. Sorry to see you go, B Cogman!

  188. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    He sounds so immature. Working in tv and film is a job that comes with criticism. If you don’t want to hear it, leave twitter. But do it without throwing a tantrum, and then explaining the tantrum. Just go off quietly, say you want to focus on work, or something less combative.

    And the ASOIAF fanbase is one of the most freakishly loyal and devoted groups out there. Compare the almost blind devotion to the outright trashing LOTR fans gave the IMO fantastic new line cinema films for a clue. To this day I still meet LOTR fans who refused to watch the films or have nothing but bad things to say. WIC and most other sites, as well as the vast majority of the fans, are so upbeat and always positive.

    I really think he needs thicker skin.

  189. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink
  190. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    One last thing. Is there any person that doesn’t understand that the word cunt is used to demean? And does understanding that a word is used to demean make you a feminist who is utterly appalled by its usage that you would never utter the word to another living soul? Nonsense and hogwash.

  191. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    MattL86,

    Maybe he does need a thicker skin, but you’re complaining about his apology?? Jesus, give the guy a break… It’s a sign of how much respect and passion he has for the fandom in general (which is why he maintained such high interaction in the first place).

  192. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    The more closely they stick to the books, which are already fantastically written and don’t need any changes to begin with, the better.

    Have we read the same AFFC and ADWD? I truly hope they won’t stick close to those two books.

    Why can’t people just sit and enjoy this very good adaptation? Why nitpick and search for smallest changes, and then bitch and whine? Why insult a guy who’s a very important part of the team that makes this adaptation possible, and he’s very good at what he does? People need to understand that this is as close to the source adaptation as humanly possible under the confines of TV.

    No adaptation is perfect and some of them turn out to be pretty bad and even terrible. Some showrunners/movie writers think that they can write a better version of some book than the author did. This is not the case here, where everyone involved in the production clearly loves the books and wants to make the best possible adaptation.

    There’s a love for the books and there’s an unhealthy obsession. Thank the gods, the later is a minority. Too bad it’s a very vocal minority that spoils the fun for the rest of us.

  193. dmso
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t even know Gethin Anthony had quit Twitter. Did he quit for the same reason?

  194. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    I have finally come around on her. I wasn’t anti-Yara or anything but I wasn’t a fan until her scene this episode. That rounded out her character for me and made me excited to see more of her on screen.

  195. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    MattL86:
    He sounds so immature.Working in tv and film is a job that comes with criticism.If you don’t want to hear it, leave twitter.But do it without throwing a tantrum, and then explaining the tantrum.Just go off quietly, say you want to focus on work, or something less combative.

    And the ASOIAF fanbase is one of the most freakishly loyal and devoted groups out there.Compare the almost blind devotion to the outright trashing LOTR fans gave the IMO fantastic new line cinema films for a clue.To this day I still meet LOTR fans who refused to watch the films or have nothing but bad things to say.WIC and most other sites, as well as the vast majority of the fans, are so upbeat and always positive.

    I really think he needs thicker skin.

    I do not think that someone’s profession or high profile is a justification for treating them with less respect, whether politician, entertainer or athlete.

    Criticism is valid. Disrespectful criticism is not; it is simply that.

    And I find when you come back at those who criticize the most, they tend to be the ones that immediately whine about it. Like you’re whining about this very clear note Bryan has written.

    Aw, so he pointed out that people like you can be dicks. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it, Matt.

  196. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    People are just dickheads nowadays. It wasn’t socially acceptable to bash everything when I was a kid. People disliked shows and stories and what not, just as they always have, they just wouldn’t go up to the writer’s face (or anonymously on the internet) and tell them how much they hated it. Why not? Because it’s rude, and awkward, and confrontational, and self-important, and pointless, etc.. And, they wouldn’t want someone to trash something they had worked on. It was called “common courtesy”.

    That used to be the social norm, but now these “ballsy” critics think it’s “cowardly” to show good taste and refrain from confronting someone for having failed to amuse them. It’s their “freedom of speech”. And I’d say, while you are technically free to be a douchebag, there used to be a time when people had a little more self-respect than that.

    A woman agrees with you that these are perilous times with regard to manners. Have we forgotten the Golden Rule entirely?

  197. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Wow, umm whose being a dick here? I’m not even on twitter, so I’m not the one who Bryan is complaining about. On the other hand, your very personal attack on me is not exactly fair or informed, so maybe look to yourself. I think he needs to man up here, and I’m not changing my opinion on that. The internet is full of trolls, and the rest of us seem to manage.

  198. The Rabbit
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    For all those “thicker skin” advisors:

    Yes, it works in theory. And it would be great that everyone of us have thicker skin.
    But hey: we are all human beings. And believe or not: we all have bad days.
    Bryan is well aware of that (just reread his post above).
    I can totally understand how the constant rantings frustrated him.

    and do not forget that he is totally emotionally involved in the creating of the show.

  199. The Winter Rose
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    The Winter Rose,

    I don’t think it has so much to do with kids having access to the internet instead of face to face conversations. I didn’t learn manners from interacting with people face to face. I learned manners from my parents. When I acted inappropriately they corrected me on it. Heck, by the time I would have been old enough to use the internet on my own I had already been raised to be polite. I find that my generation and older tend to constantly act as if the internet, video games, etc. is this detrimental device for raising a proper child. People tend to romanticize their generations vs these young punks nowadays. It’s total nonsense in my opinion.

    If you really want to understand the deterioration of ethics and morality of society then you must delve much deeper than that. I’m not going to launch into a philosophical or economic debate on here but if you are interested at all in understanding this problem from another sides prospective I can recommend some fantastic books. The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek, The Ethics of Liberty by Murray Rothbard, and anything from Jeffrey Tucker on these kind of issues like this article http://mises.org/daily/3984/How-to-Improve-the-Culture

    Economics, economic history, philosophy, logic, etc. is my passion so please excuse my diatribes when I feel compelled to respond to an issue that is up my wheel house but doesn’t apply to GoT.

    Yes, that is all completely valid. I didn’t mean to dismissively place all the blame on the internet. It is a much more complex issues, I agree. Though I do find that the level of emotional distancing and ability to hide behind a wall of anominity found online creates a desentizing effect and thus a lack of empathy. With more and more parents not monitoring their children, young people are not corrected in this behavior and thus this behavior eventually becomes normalized – often with the incredibly lame excuse of “it’s the internet, deal with it” thereby, again, emotionally distancing themselves from their behavior by placing the blame on the other person for being upset and none on themselves for being rude and acting inappropriately. Rude behvior is sadly normalized online. People need to be better socialized and learn to conduct themselves with proper etiquette and decorum both online and in face-to-face interactions.

  200. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    MattL86:
    Alan,

    Wow, umm whose being a dick here?I’m not even on twitter, so I’m not the one who Bryan is complaining about.On the other hand, your very personal attack on me is not exactly fair or informed, so maybe look to yourself.I think he needs to man up here, and I’m not changing my opinion on that.The internet is full of trolls, and the rest of us seem to manage.

    Man up, buddy. Don’t call me a dick because I called you one. Don’t respond with a justification for why I’m wrong. I’ve read your criticisms — most of them read like a four year old. I find it hard you can breathe on your own.

    Furthermore, every time you post, I’m going to have something annoying to say. And soon, I’m going to get 1,000 of my friends to do it. Most of them aren’t as polite.

    Will you leave Winter is Coming quietly?

  201. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Ask Alan Ball, who since S1 has moved TB so far away from the original material that internet buzz, book fans, and critical acclaim have all abandoned him and he’s turned his own show into a tired parody of itself.

    In response he has jumped ship rather than change. Thus pride goeth before a fall.

    I don’t think books fans can say anything about True Blood, since it’s obviously no longer an adaptation of Southern Vampire Mysteries book series. It’s Alan Ball’s terrible fan fiction and a perfect example of how not to do an adaptation.
    Some would argue that those books weren’t that good to begin with. I disagree and think that they are an easy and fun read.

  202. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Man up, buddy.Don’t call me a dick because I called you one.Don’t respond with a justification for why I’m wrong.I’ve read your criticisms — most of them read like a four year old.I find it hard you can breathe on your own.

    Furthermore, every time you post, I’m going to have something annoying to say.And soon, I’m going to get 1,000 of my friends to do it.Most of them aren’t as polite.

    Will you leave Winter is Coming quietly?

    troll.

  203. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    MattL86: troll.

    Absolutely.

    One person insults you and immediately respond in kind and you have the gall to call Cogman “immature” for penning his reasons for not wanting to post anymore after what was thousands of insults, many of them profane, baseless and disrespectful?

    You couldn’t even last ONE comment. Just think about that for a second.

    Cogman put up with it for longer than most would. He’s relatively inexperienced in this space. He’s learned his lesson. Give people something like access — and they won’t thank you for it. They just want more.

  204. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky:
    DH87,

    I don’t think books fans can say anything about True Blood, since it’s obviously no longer an adaptation of Southern Vampire Mysteries book series. It’s Alan Ball’s terrible fan fiction and a perfect example of how not to do an adaptation.
    Some would argue that those books weren’t that good to begin with. I disagree and think that they are an easy and fun read.

    Was True Blood the show ever faithful? Honest question, as I’ve never watched or read it (aside from an ep here or there).

  205. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    The Winter Rose,

    Yeah, I would agree that inappropriate social behavior is more prevalent online but just wanted to point out that it isn’t created by the Internet. I personally like that people feel more free to express their ignorance and rudeness online. It lets me know right off the bat what kind of person I’m dealing with. I hate when people are good at hiding their racism, hatred, rudeness, etc. It’s the false advertising of someone’s character that bothers me. Obviously, I wish the behavior didn’t exist but that can only be accomplished through changing society at large.

    Also, I’m not saying that I’m the poster child of politeness. I’m human and make mistakes sometimes when I lose my temper but I do try to be cognizant of my flaws and correct them.

  206. The Winter Rose
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Agreed!
    And thanks for the resources. They sound interesting.
    I will have to add those to my GoodReads readling list :)

  207. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman:

    Ok, I’m really done now.Thanks everyone for the warm comments.I really do appreciate it.Getting back to work now.

    B

    I’m sorry you had to deal with people who mobbed you on Twitter. I don’t use it myself and agree completely with you decision to stop using it. It’s virtually impossible to cram a fair critical argument into 140 characters.

    You and your colleagues work extremely hard to produce 10 great hour-long episodes of near-cinema-quality television a season, which is a massively ambitious project. Thank you!

    I hope you or someone else from the GoT team will continue to comment on or lurk at WiC.net from time to time. There will continue to be little niggles and pet peeves here and there, but let’s be honest here: virtually no-one could edit this story for TV any better than you do. What any of us says here is at most a storm in a teacup, so please don’t let it distract you from your work.

    Can’t wait to see the final episodes of season 2 and what you will do in season 3!

  208. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Sigh. I know I shouldn’t feed you but here I go anyway.

    I am still here. I have not left, I haven’t even been rattled. I am a part of an awful lot of internet communities, and I am trolled daily. Everyone who spends significant time on the internet is. My first comment was a little critical, but not vicious. Since then, I have made no personal attacks on Cogman (or you, for that matter, other than to label you a troll). More importantly, if you are trying to in someway prove I could not handle criticism by trolling me into submission, it isn’t going to work, but nice try.

    It is ironic how the people who complain that critics are too mean can be so inhuman to the critics themselves. For example, I may be critical of this show’s recent writing, but I would never take my criticism to the personal level you are going. And you are supposed to be the polite one. Wait what?

    That’s my whole point with his ‘apology’. It’s divisive and designed to pit fans against one another. Now all his fans will blame each other instead of him for leaving twitter. People decide that but for a few assholes, they could have had a good thing. Maybe that’s true, I don’t know, I don’t follow twitter. But I do know that millions of people write, review, or tweet professionally online, and they ALL have to deal with this, not just Bryan Cogman. Is that ideal? Hell no. But it is reality,

  209. Weirwood
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    This reminds me of something my father used to say, “We as human beings have the power to build someone up or to tear them down, simply by which words we choose to use”.

    Our words can be weapons, or they can be used as a salve to help sooth and heal. Whether written or spoken, language is one of mankind’s most important gifts.

    Choose your words carefully, people.

  210. Jack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Yes, exactly. Thank you for wording it so wonderfully.

  211. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Was True Blood the show ever faithful?Honest question, as I’ve never watched or read it (aside from an ep here or there).

    The first season was kinda faithful, not to GoT degrees, but you could recognize the book plots.
    The second was sort of based on the second book (mainly the Dallas vampires stuff), but the whole deal with Maenad was Alan Ball taking some very minor plot from the second book (it’s maybe 10 pages out of 300 or so) and blowing it to half a season of pointless orgies.
    The third and the fourth seasons are basically a fan fiction. I have no idea what would the fifth season be about because almost all plots from the future books have been eliminated.
    If you want to understand just how much the show differs from the books, imagine D&D turning Starks into Borgia type of family and modifying the rest of the plot accordingly.

  212. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Man up, buddy. Don’t call me a dick because I called you one. Don’t respond with a justification for why I’m wrong. I’ve read your criticisms — most of them read like a four year old. I find it hard you can breathe on your own. Furthermore, every time you post, I’m going to have something annoying to say. And soon, I’m going to get 1,000 of my friends to do it. Most of them aren’t as polite. Will you leave Winter is Coming quietly?

    Well played.

  213. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    MattL86: It is ironic how the people who complain that critics are too mean can be so inhuman to the critics themselves. For example, I may be critical of this show’s recent writing, but I would never take my criticism to the personal level you are going. And you are supposed to be the polite one. Wait what?

    He was not being personal, he was using “personal insults” to make a point regarding the situation you just commented on through a comparative example. Which you then took personally, which was kind of funny.

  214. Zack
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    The Rabbit:
    For all those “thicker skin” advisors:

    Yes, it works in theory. And it would be great that everyone of us have thicker skin.
    But hey: we are all human beings. And believe or not: we all have bad days.
    Bryan is well aware of that (just reread his post above).I can totally understand how the constant rantings frustrated him.

    and do not forget that he is totally emotionally involved in the creating of the show.

    This is 100% true. Plus I hate to be ‘that guy’ here but….*you* spend hundreds of hours on a project, put it online, and then laugh it off when people not only attack your hard work, but you as an individual.

    You have to be ready for negative reactions when you do this. But you shouldn’t have to lie back and take it when douchebags come out from hiding. q

  215. Bruce Sturrock
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    You know Germaine Greer wrote a very clever essay way back in the 70′s called ‘Lady love your cunt’. Now she’s a real feminist… not unlike our Yara.

    Seems the internet fuels our natural human arrogance and ignorance to Lannister like levels.

    Shame, that though we’re all intelligent enough to know when being told a cracking good yarn, some of us will only ever hear the story one way. Try and explain that to Mathew Mark Luke and John!

  216. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    No, I don’t take anything I read online personally, and that’s the whole point. I did miss a bit of his sarcasm perhaps, though not, I think, to any serious detriment to my own happiness.

    This thread does go to show one thing I’ve always known. No one can be as mean as ‘nice’ people. Look through the entirety of the comments. Anyone with anything remotely negative to say about Cogman is attacked. All the personal attacks are by ‘positive’ people on critics, while the critical comments are more or less professional (with a few exceptions). It’s really quite funny.

  217. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    There once was a writer named Bryan
    Whose hobby was coffee shop spyin’
    He’d regale us with tales
    Of nerds very pale
    And the girls to which they were lyin’

    But alas, no more will he tweet
    Because some GoT fans did browbeat
    And complained on the Twitter
    Of story changes so bitter
    ‘’til he threw his laptop in defeat

    “Enough, you nit-picking numskulls!”
    Said the scribe as he hash -tagged his last words
    “I’m tired of the crying,
    I’ve got episodes that need writing!”
    So he left, from those few tweet’nturds

    And it’s our loss.Sorry to see you go, B Cogman!

    Niiiiiiiice!

  218. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    MattL86: This thread does go to show one thing I’ve always known. No one can be as mean as ‘nice’ people. Look through the entirety of the comments. Anyone with anything remotely negative to say about Cogman is attacked. All the personal attacks are by ‘positive’ people on critics, while the critical comments are more or less professional (with a few exceptions). It’s really quite funny.

    That’s because I removed some of the nastier comments. As far as the people with critical comments getting ‘attacked’? It seems to me it is because their criticism was flimsy to begin with and so they were challenged on it.

  219. MW
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    There’s a lot of internet tough guys in this thread. I hope I don’t get beaten up by your scathing insults.

  220. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    The Winter Rose,

    I’ll save you some money if you want those books. Here are links to those books free online.

    http://mises.org/document/2402/The-Road-to-Serfdom

    http://mises.org/document/1179/The-Ethics-of-Liberty

    Also here is an online course taught by the brilliant Dr. Thomas Dilorenzo covering The Road to Serfdom. It goes from June 12-July 31. It costs $125. If you have a busy schedule everything is archived so you can take it at your own leisure. I’ve taken a lot of these courses, not this one, and they are fantastic.

    http://academy.mises.org/courses/the-road-to-serfdom-then-and-now/

    There you go if you are interested.

  221. LordStarkington
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    It’s funny how someone further up in here claimed people were devoted to the show as is to criticize Bryan Cogman’s reaction when a simple trip to westeros.org will show plenty of people hysterically claiming that basically every character has been ruined, the books undermined, etc.

    Generally speaking, the reaction IS positive, and I think a lot of the handwringing is really just poorly phrased. By that I mean, I think the person going “ROBB IS RUINED!!!!!” is really saying “I generally like most of this show but I’m finding Robb/Talisa to be boring. And by boring I mean Oona Chaplin is mine.” Err, scratch that last part.

    I do find a dark undertone to some of the comments though – there is a real sense of entitlement that reminds me of how people react to GRRM writing his books as well (which famously resulted in Neil Gaiman telling people GRRM wasn’t their bitch, of course). I don’t know, I just have found it really “unfun” to talk about the show with many of the people I enjoyed discussing the books with over at Westeros because people get so wrapped up in how some tiny detail offends them that they blow it way out of proportion.

  222. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Was True Blood the show ever faithful? Honest question, as I’ve never watched or read it (aside from an ep here or there).

    Yes, Season 1 was reasonably faithful to the (now) 12 books in the series. Unfortunately, Alan Ball never actually meant to adapt the series but rather buy the rights, string the fans along, then break apart and reassemble characters to match his own vision of what a show should be: to wit, a show about an AB alter ego attempting to live in two worlds, much as AB sees himself doing. AB thought that casting attractive naked people in the service of this vision of his life’s journey would be enough to keep the book and show fans among the happy-happy-joy-joy and, now that ship-jumping has taken place, AB is using HBO money to weave his magic spell for two new shows, Banshee and Wichita. Yay for him!

    Interestingly, the author of the SVM has been complimentary, followed by subdued, followed by hostilely defensive, re: the show over the five years TB has been on the air, only recently acknowledging that “knowing what she does now, she’d do things differently” for adaptations of her other series. This the rune-readers among her fans have taken as acknowledgement of the massive gut job done to her characters, their motivations, and plotlines once she signed over all control to AB.

  223. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    MW: There’s a lot of internet tough guys in this thread. I hope I don’t get beaten up by your scathing insults.

    In this thread? Jeez, this seems pretty civil compared to some of the recap threads.

  224. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: That’s because I removed some of the nastier comments. As far as the people with critical comments getting ‘attacked’? It seems to me it is because their criticism was flimsy to begin with and so they were challenged on it.

    Ahh, that does make some sense. There was a decidedly civil air to this thread that seemed unnatural for the internet, haha.

  225. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    No, tell us how you really feel about AB. Lol.

    I have to agree on just about every point you made though. ;)

  226. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Cogman,
    Thank you for all the time you’ve given to the fans. I’d much rather see you write more GOT episodes rather than read your Tweets, wonderful as they have been. Sifting through trolls is the job of a show intern, and should not be the job of one of our best TV writers…YOU. Suggestion: get an intern to do an “official show related” BCogman twitter, and have a personal/private one with a different name for your family and friends. That would be a win/win. More episodes written by you, with twitter comments moderated by an intern. The intern can print out for you the most pertinent responses for you to read while rocking your baby (for laughs). That would be a compromise that most of us would understand. Most of the “celebs” on Twitter do not write nor respond to their tweets nowadays, they’re too busy and so are you. Best of luck in the future whatever you do.

    With respect and admiration,
    Mrs. H’ghar

  227. Andrew
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Look on the brightside, lads. We’re stll not as awful as the gaming or music communities.

    Really is a shame this had to happen, but im glad Mr. Cogman got out before it started really affecting his work. It was a privelege to have him interact with us, not a right.

    Here’s to many more years of great work, Mr. Cogman! We’ll be anxiosly awaiting!

  228. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    MattL86:
    Alan,

    Sigh.I know I shouldn’t feed you but here I go anyway.

    I am still here.I have not left, I haven’t even been rattled.I am a part of an awful lot of internet communities, and I am trolled daily.Everyone who spends significant time on the internet is.My first comment was a little critical, but not vicious.Since then, I have made no personal attacks on Cogman (or you, for that matter, other than to label you a troll).More importantly, if you are trying to in someway prove I could not handle criticismby trolling me into submission, it isn’t going to work, but nice try.

    It is ironic how the people who complain that critics are too mean can be so inhuman to the critics themselves.For example, I may be critical of this show’s recent writing, but I would never take my criticism to the personal level you are going.And you are supposed to be the polite one.Wait what?

    That’s my whole point with his ‘apology’.It’s divisive and designed to pit fans against one another.Now all his fans will blame each other instead of him for leaving twitter.People decide that but for a few assholes, they could have had a good thing.Maybe that’s true, I don’t know, I don’t follow twitter.But I do know that millions of people write, review, or tweet professionally online, and they ALL have to deal with this, not just Bryan Cogman.Is that ideal? Hell no.But it is reality,

    You actually called me a dick. It’s right there in the comments. This explanation above is well-reasoned, if not entirely honest, and very similar in civility to Cogman’s parting letter.

    I think it’s fairly apparent that you’d have trouble conducting yourself with class as well given the circumstances Bryan was under. One response and you were lowering your response to my comment’s level. Something Bryan did not do in his explanation.

    Why not give Mr. Cogman some benefit of the doubt? Many of his fans would want an explanation of why he left. He provided it, both with an apology for some of his own behavior and a very measured and presumably honest explanation of why he left.

    I do not know what you expect of him, but after just one annoying comment, your response has shown less class or reason.

  229. Coltaine777
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    I’m sorry he’s gone from twitter..anyone from the production who takes the time to communicate with ‘us’ fans deserves applause …Mr.Cogman should’ve the given the people attacking him a big FU … and remained on Twitter ….never let BULLIES win …

  230. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    MattL86: No, tell us how you really feel about AB. Lol.

    DH’s Axis of Evil: Alan Ball, Ros, Alan Ball again

  231. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Yes, Season 1 was reasonably faithful to the (now) 12 books in the series. Unfortunately, Alan Ball never actually meant to adapt the series but rather buy the rights, string the fans along, then break apart and reassemble characters to match his own vision of what a show should be: to wit, a show about an AB alter ego attempting to live in two worlds, much as AB sees himself doing. AB thought that casting attractive naked people in the service of this vision of his life’s journey would be enough to keep the book and show fans among the happy-happy-joy-joy and, now that ship-jumping has taken place, AB is using HBO money to weave his magic spell for two new shows, Banshee and Wichita. Yay for him!

    Interestingly, the author of the SVM has been complimentary, followed by subdued, followed byhostilely defensive, re: the show over the five years TB has been on the air, only recently acknowledging that “knowing what she does now, she’d do things differently” for adaptations of her other series. This the rune-readers among her fans have taken as acknowledgement of the massive gut job done to her characters, their motivations, and plotlines once she signed over all control to AB.

    Interesting. Is the commentary on Ball’s motivations your personal interpretations or something he’s admitted to publicly?

    Creative types always want to bring something of their own to a role, a script, etc. Most don’t like to be translators. Actors are always my favorite that way. It’s one reason I’ve been so happy with GoT so far — there really hasn’t been a ton of artistic interpretation relative to most things. People can get upset over Cersei or Catelyn or the asian influences in Lannister armor or whatever … but really, sometimes it is hard enough just to get actors not to make up their own backstory or completely change dialog. “Well, what if Ned Stark is an opium addict?” “No, Sean.”

  232. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky: The first season was kinda faithful, not to GoT degrees, but you could recognize the book plots.
    The second was sort of based on the second book (mainly the Dallas vampires stuff), but the whole deal with Maenad was Alan Ball taking some very minor plot from the second book (it’s maybe 10 pages out of 300 or so) and blowing it to half a season of pointless orgies.
    The third and the fourth seasons are basically a fan fiction. I have no idea what would the fifth season be about because almost all plots from the future books have been eliminated.
    If you want to understand just how much the show differs from the books, imagine D&D turning Starks into Borgia type of family and modifying the rest of the plot accordingly.

    Yep. Martin wasn’t kidding that most people came to him pitching a vastly changed story. I imagine the ONLY versions, other than D&D, that had Dany even in the story as an active player were ones centered around Dany with other actors cut.

    In the end, keeping the scope of Martin’s work may actually turn out to be a giant mistake. I hope it’s a mistake they keep trying. I don’t want to lose Brienne in Feast or Theon in Dance just because, well, it’s big.

    I hope they keep trying to crush this impossible task. I will forgive the missteps along the way.

  233. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    And kind of my point. He was right; I was trolling. But like you said, he went there quickly. It took Bryan thousands of nasty posts to make one kinda of annoyed hashtag and really a nice letter.

    Which he then criticized, because, let’s face it, it pointed out that maybe the ridiculous criticisms people post are sometimes pretty ridiculous. And not nice.

  234. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I hope they keep trying to crush this impossible task. I will forgive the missteps along the way.

    Amen to that.

  235. Middlefinger
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    MattL86:
    Steven Swanson,

    This thread does go to show one thing I’ve always known.No one can be as mean as ‘nice’ people.Look through the entirety of the comments.Anyone with anything remotely negative to say about Cogman is attacked.All the personal attacks are by ‘positive’ people on critics, while the critical comments are more or less professional (with a few exceptions).It’s really quite funny.

    This is actually a very good point. If anyone dare make a negative comment (constructive or otherwise) they are almost always attacked by loads of angry “fanboys”. Some even call for censoring and baning opinions they dont like. Kudos to WIC for not obliging them.

    Personally I stoped writing negative comments on this site (just think of this post as an exception to the rule ;P). There is just no point in dong it . Just see all the attacks on book purists in this tread alone. Some people seem to take owership in the show and try to crush any for of critisism (even if its valid and/or constructive).

    To me it seems clear that the shows main failing is on the writing side. Both on plot lines and dialogues. That beeing said I prefer Vanessa Taylor and Cogman over D&D. On other fronts they seem to have made a lot of progress from season 1. The best thing about the show is the actors. They are pretty much all superb.

    Almost all plotlines are changed to varying degrees. Even lots of cool things that would have cost nothnig to include. In other words; they make way to many changes for my taste. To me atleast the show is at its best when staying close to the books (or even pulling dialogue directly from the books). Almost every time they weer off gaping plot holes are introduced. And as a reader of asoiaf that is not something Im used to.

    Personally I love the books first and foremost. Having read them mutiple, mutiple times its hard (atleast for me) to not point out errors and changes in my head as I watch the show. This combined with the fact that I have quite a negative outlook on most things tends to ruin my enjoyment of the show.

    I maintain a love/hate relationship with the show. When its good its good, but sometimes I just want to flip the table and nerdrage on the internet. I just STFU now and go back to stalking mimi over at http://www.apodcastoficeandfire.com

  236. Mike
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Middlefinger,

    I’ve seen plenty of book purists being unprofessional on this site alongside those who bash purists. Do not even try to make this seem one-sided.

  237. Dave
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    Sure the book purists may get bashed on this site, so they leave this site and harass Bryan Cogman on Twitter.

  238. Mike
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    What scares me is that these same radical fans of ASOIAF who complain about Dan and Dave’s adaptation will be calling for GRRM’s head in 2014 and The Winds of Winter has still not been published…

  239. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    You messed up there with the cut and past. I said that, not Steven, and it was in response to something completely unrelated to what you are talking about. Plus I blacked out the parts that could be deemed spoilers.

  240. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Alan, You messed up there with the cut and past. I said that, not Steven, and it was in response to something completely unrelated to what you are talking about. Plus I blacked out the parts that could be deemed spoilers.

    Unfortunately that happens often on here, somebody highlights a spoiler then doesn’t cover it back up. They go to quote a post and it instead quotes the highlighted portion of a different post. Kind of funny that spoilered posts end up getting quoted so often….

  241. purplejilly
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    As for the comment about B Cogman needing thicker skin, I think his skin is fine the way it is – writers are artists, and artists are known for their temper and moods. I always enjoy B Cogman’s episodes quite a bit, and if he toughened up his skin, maybe he wouldn’t write the same way, so I’d rather he withdraw from Twitter, then have him stay and possibly change. I think that the fact that he wrote that nice explanation for Winter shows us he’s a good guy.

  242. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Middlefinger: This is actually a very good point. If anyone dare make a negative comment (constructive or otherwise) they are almost always attacked by loads of angry“fanboys”. Some even call for censoring and baning opinions they dont like. Kudos to WIC for not obliging them.

    Personally I stoped writing negative comments on this site (just think of this post as an exception to the rule ;P). There is just no point in dong it . Just see all the attacks on book purists in this tread alone. Some people seem to take owership in the show and try to crush any for of critisism (even if its valid and/or constructive).

    To me it seems clear that the shows main failing is on the writing side. Both on plot lines and dialogues. That beeing said I prefer Vanessa Taylor and Cogman over D&D. On other fronts they seem to have made a lot of progress from season 1. The best thing about the show is the actors. They are pretty much all superb.

    Almost all plotlines are changed to varying degrees. Even lots of cool things that would have cost nothnig to include. In other words; they make way to many changes for my taste. To me atleast the show is at its best when stayingclose to the books (or even pulling dialogue directly from the books). Almost every time they weer offgaping plot holes are introduced. And as a reader of asoiaf that is not something Im used to.

    Personally I love the books first and foremost. Having read them mutiple, mutiple times its hard (atleast for me) to not point out errors and changes in my head as I watch the show. This combined with the fact that I have quite a negative outlook on most things tends to ruin my enjoyment of the show.

    I maintain a love/hate relationship with the show. When its good its good, but sometimes I just want to flip the table and nerdrage on the internet. I just STFU now and go back to stalking mimi over at http://www.apodcastoficeandfire.com

    Response to criticism on this site is almost always written in the same tenor as the initial criticism. There are exceptions, no doubt.

    But if you write massive hyperbole (THEY RUINED ROBB!) or insults (D&D can’t write!), I don’t know why that poster deserves to be treated with more respect than they are treating the writers, showrunners, cast and crew.

    And if you write any criticism, you should not be offended if anyone disagrees with you.

    In general, I find those supporting the show do a better job of displaying backing evidence, explaining their POV, than those attacking. Not everyone, of course, but there’s so many emotional, irrational attacks that it can’t help but be true.

  243. Coltaine777
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Middlefinger: This is actually a very good point. If anyone dare make a negative comment (constructive or otherwise) they are almost always attacked by loads of angry“fanboys”. Some even call for censoring and baning opinions they dont like. Kudos to WIC for not obliging them.

    Personally I stoped writing negative comments on this site (just think of this post as an exception to the rule ;P). There is just no point in dong it . Just see all the attacks on book purists in this tread alone. Some people seem to take owership in the show and try to crush any for of critisism (even if its valid and/or constructive).

    To me it seems clear that the shows main failing is on the writing side. Both on plot lines and dialogues. That beeing said I prefer Vanessa Taylor and Cogman over D&D. On other fronts they seem to have made a lot of progress from season 1. The best thing about the show is the actors. They are pretty much all superb.

    Almost all plotlines are changed to varying degrees. Even lots of cool things that would have cost nothnig to include. In other words; they make way to many changes for my taste. To me atleast the show is at its best when stayingclose to the books (or even pulling dialogue directly from the books). Almost every time they weer offgaping plot holes are introduced. And as a reader of asoiaf that is not something Im used to.

    Personally I love the books first and foremost. Having read them mutiple, mutiple times its hard (atleast for me) to not point out errors and changes in my head as I watch the show. This combined with the fact that I have quite a negative outlook on most things tends to ruin my enjoyment of the show.

    I maintain a love/hate relationship with the show. When its good its good, but sometimes I just want to flip the table and nerdrage on the internet. I just STFU now and go back to stalking mimi over at http://www.apodcastoficeandfire.com

    well said..

  244. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Alan,

    You messed up there with the cut and past. I said that, not Steven, and it was in response to something completely unrelated to what you are talking about. Plus I blacked out the parts that could be deemed spoilers.

    No doubt. I have no dog in the c* fight.

  245. ...
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    I hate that he left twitter and I seriously respect D&D (&B) for bringing the awesomest books to life, also for their dedication and for how beautiful the series looks, but on the other hand…

    .. maybe this means they’ll feel the fan backlash regarding certain characters and they’ll stick closer to the book next season(s)? I mean, I’m no purist, I love added scenes/twists, but what they’ve done to Jon is just wrong. They made him the butt of all jokes everywhere. I wouldn’t want him for my Lord Commander. It won’t even be believable that he changed so much, if and when he changes. Also, Jamie killing a relative. SO out of character. I mean, purists cried at Lord of the Rings for Tom Bombadil, but they never made Gandalf hit Frodo.

  246. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Is the commentary on Ball’s motivations your personal interpretations or something he’s admitted to publicly?

    AB admits to almost nothing publicly. Imagine a combination snake-oil salesman and visionary convincing a small-town mystery writer whose previous film options on her about-to-end series had lapsed that he would remain committed “to the spirit of the books” to keep the author and her fans on board.

    The only remotely candid observations he’s made about True Blood seem to have been to the Academy of Television Critics (not good people to bullshit when you expect to be flogging new shows for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, ATC interview receive very little fan notice, so truthfulness seldom comes back to bite showrunners later on.) Only in Season 4 did AB admit to them that he threw a lot of bogus symbolic stuff into TB just in case he could use some of it in later seasons, thereby puncturing the fantasy that he had some deeply Druidic message for fans otherwise utterly perplexed by the crap they were seeing. He also told the Rolling Stone interviewer (0f all the deep thinkers out there) that the show was about “archetypes, the subconscious, mythology, and wish-fulfillment,” which never seemed to have been challenged in the context of a show about naked supernatural creatures prancing around a waitress in a southern roadhouse. Granted, some Jungian philosophy may be floating around in AB’s world view, but more likely it was AB’s self-identified Buddhist teachings, rather than any faithfulness to the books, that caused him to have the main character ask for “forgiveness” from a vamp hero boyfriend who had drained her almost to death and raped and murdered plenty of women in his courtly southern past. None of that was in the books. Where the shifting world rules and gaping plot holes came from can be deduced from the disingenous ex-script supervisors and comic book writers hired to write a quarter of Season 3—not from AB, whose tolerance for such screw ups seems limitless.

    Nope, to figure out what AB is up to and why you have to read four years’ worth of comments/interviews, listen to every podcast and fan video from ComicCon/PaleyFest/et al., and cross-reference that with the programmed non-answers of the actors (who leak a bit of truth often enough to help you follow the bread crumbs), the blogs and public statements of the author….

    …..and come to the conclusion that Alan Ball is a big ole’ fibber who never meant to put together a adaptation of the Southern Vampire Mysteries “truthful to the spirit of the books.” I’ve shoveled real horse manure for more than forty years, and I’d like to think I can recognize the virtual version when I see it.

  247. Gay for Cersei
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    We all have our disappointments in life, and the people who attacked you personally for it are just idiots.

  248. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    After all that long-winded blathering, I see I neglected to offer the primary evidence of AB’s mind set: he took ten books featuring (1) a heroine and (2) a charismatic anti-hero, and elevated instead a secondary character the author had planned to kill off, casting that part with someone who looks like his brother in real life (closer in age to AB than to the part as written) and marginalized the most popular actor (Skarsgard), playing the most popular character from the books, to keep his alter-ego on center stage. He constructed an entirely new and sympathetic Bill/AB, made him king of the world, and savior of all mankind and was hurt when fans booed him at ComiCon.

  249. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Middlefinger,

    Bingo. I think it comes from fear honestly. Everyone wanted this show so bad, and we all held our breath for a couple years there. Now everyone wants the show to get to book seven (if and when book seven arrives), and some I think fear that any negativity will in some way cost them the show. The truth is, all that matters are ratings, HBO subscriptions, DVD sales, and critics reviews (all of which have been good to great). Someone on here complaining about the odd episode isn’t a threat.

    There’s this unwritten rule in the GoT community that this has to be your favorite show, and that you can’t have one negative thing to say about it. Not just here on WiC, but also on regular sites like IGN or elsewhere (though, I suspect, the community is made of much the same people on every site). That’s great for a lot of people, but a lot of us really like the show while also having an awful lot of complaints. And we still would like a place to talk about it.

  250. winterfell
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I wish somehow you could keep people like this off of the site. and i LOVE (lovelovelove) that you stopped including westeros.org’s reviews. They do nothing but fuel negativity from a fan base that ultimately should just be happy the damn show is on TV.

    People are stange, when you’re a stranger……..

  251. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    MattL86,

    Come on, who thinks that complaints on some message board will effect whether HBO keeps the show going? You’re completely creating a straw man to knock down.

    Oh, and I love the implication that people who have complaints have nowhere to talk about the show. That is rich being posted on a site that has many complaints about the show on virtually every post.

    Don’t try to paint this as the good and reasoned critics vs the irrational fan boys. There are annoying people on both sides of the debate. There also is a majority of people who just disagree in a respectul manner. Maybe if you are getting a lot of push back on what you write it is because of you’re not being as reasonable as you think you are. Judging from your attack on a straw man it wouldn’t surprise me if that is the case.

  252. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    IMO, your Alan Ball posts are the weirdest part of this thread, and that’s saying something!

  253. Coltaine777
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    winterfell:
    Winter Is Coming,

    I wish somehow you could keep people like this off of the site. and i LOVE (lovelovelove) that you stopped including westeros.org’s reviews. They do nothing but fuel negativity from a fan base that ultimately should just be happy the damn show is on TV.

    People are stange, when you’re a stranger……..

    ” a fan base that ultimately should just be happy that the damn show is just on tv ” ?…my God that is just a sad statement…this show is far from being above criticism…come on man …and no that doesn’t make me ungrateful of the efforts of all invovled in the production but this show is far from being the best on tv imo and just because it is on tv doesn’t make it above reproach ..

  254. Meg
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    My take on the “cunt” debacle: a “dumb cunt” means a stupid woman – and what’s worse in Ironborn culture than being a woman? Saying it to a guy doesn’t matter because being feminine is the worst possible thing to be, for a man or a woman. Poor word choice for Yara, who has probably had that word thrown at her most of her life (Asha is called “iron cunt” in battle and it’s NOT supposed to be praise). I agree that it’s awkward, like Brienne insulting Jaime with “wench.” Just doesn’t work, knowing what we know about the characters.

    That being said, for fuck’s sake, there’s no reason why the offending person who yelled at Bryan on twitter couldn’t talk about this in a civil manner. As a teacher, I’m not annoyed by students who respectfully bring up concerns; I’m annoyed by the students who whine about it or feel entitled to something. I feel insulted as a professional. Let’s give Bryan the benefit that he knows what he’s doing, and if we feel like we disagree with things that are within his control, we should do it with respect to him as a human being.

  255. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Lex: IMO, your Alan Ball posts are the weirdest part of this thread, and that’s saying something!

    Thanks, Lex, and thanks to Alan for asking the questions that prompt them.

    I do have something more relevant to suggest, that the next week’s Recap post be titled, “Not to Hurt Bryan Cogman’s Feelings, But….” and each comment begin with that phrase.

  256. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Didn’t mean to give offense, I just don’t know anything whatsoever about Alan Ball and this thread feels so strange and off-topic (the C word debate, etc.). Just another day at WiC! :)

  257. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Okay, that’s not a strawman, or at least I was not meaning it to be. It was just supposed to be a theory. I realize I did go on to knock it down afterwards, though. bad paragraph structuring on my part. My bad.

    And yes, it is my theory. It comes from comments like ” …a fan base that ultimately should just be happy the damn show is on TV” which are posted all the time. I think people are so relieved to see this as a real actual show in their living room they are scared to criticize it at all, for fear it might go away.

  258. Meg
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    DH87,
    I too love your True Blood posts! It’s like I get two fandom discussions for the price of one. :)

  259. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    MattL86,

    There’s this unwritten rule in the GoT community that this has to be your favorite show, and that you can’t have one negative thing to say about it. Not just here on WiC, but also on regular sites like IGN or elsewhere (though, I suspect, the community is made of much the same people on every site). That’s great for a lot of people, but a lot of us really like the show while also having an awful lot of complaints. And we still would like a place to talk about it.

    I don’t think it’s the case. I love GoT and I think it’s a good adaptation, but my absolute favorite show of all time is Breaking Bad, which is perfect in every aspect and beyond criticism.
    I do have some minor nitpicking about the show, but the good outweighs the bad by orders of magnitude. I can’t speak for the others, but I’d like a place where I can discuss the show as a TV show, and not go through hundreds of posts like WHERE ARE THE REEDS?!?!?! OMG THEY RUINED EVERYONE!!!!!111 RENLY DIDN’T HAVE A PEACH!!!!! ROS SUCKS!!!!! (pun not intended) etc etc etc. That’s why I don’t go to westeros.org (I’ve visited it several times, but even lurking there is not fun, and that’s what I mostly do on sites like these) and that’s why I stopped opening the book reader recap posts on this site.

  260. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Meg:
    DH87,
    I too love your True Blood posts! It’s like I get two fandom discussions for the price of one. :)

    I’ll second that. Maybe you should have your own True Blood blog. ;)

  261. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    MattL86,

    I think you are conflating two separate issues. It’s not complaints that bother people. It’s constantly repeating the same complaint, insulting complaints, baseless complaints, incessant complaints, etc. Yes, there are people who go too far and think that any complaint can’t be uttered, and they deserve your scorn, but you have been painting with too broad a brush.

  262. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    MattL86: I’ll second that.Maybe you should have your own True Blood blog. ;)

    +1.

  263. digitals3rf
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Some of these people think that just because they’ve been to a few fan conventions, and have watched some behind-the-scenes stuff, they know all about what it takes to run a show and have license to criticize anyone about anything.

    It’s ridiculous. Nobody out there right now could make a better GoT than the people who are making it right now. NOBODY. And certainly not mostly nameless, faceless harpies on twitter. If they tried, they’d have ratings in the toilet and fans wanting to string them up.

    Bravo to Cogman et al, and I hope they continue exactly as they have been. I love the books but I love the TV show too, and like their changes for the most part.

  264. MattL86
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Hmm, I suppose. There are reasonable people like you certainly, but then I’m not really talking about you. Likewise, I’m sure you’re not bothered by people with well thought out minor critiques. We’re both largely complaining about extremes.

    It’s been a lot of fun discussing things here, but I really have to go. I have like ten things to do tonight and I keep thinking I’ll answer one more post. I’m sure Sunday night’s recap will see the same debate start up again anyway. :P

  265. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    digitals3rf,

    Nobody out there right now could make a better GoT than the people who are making it right now. NOBODY. And certainly not mostly nameless, faceless harpies on twitter. If they tried, they’d have ratings in the toilet and fans wanting to string them up.

    I’m not going to defend the twitter harpies, but I never agreed with this sort of argument. Even if I can’t run a TV show or write fiction, compose music or paint (but I can read and write Fortran 77 code!), I can still say if I liked other person’s creation or not and why I liked/disliked it.
    There are movies I don’t like because they look terrible or make no sense. Some music sounds like a horrible puke-inducing noise to me. There are books, even those which are considered classics, that I dislike for being boring. What I want to say is that it’s OK to criticize stuff even if you can’t do better, you just have to be civil about it.

  266. Weirwood
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    MattL86,
    My experience here has been that if you post something controversial or unfavorable, multiple people will react (and usually vociferously). And when you attempt to respond to each and every post, and/or try to elaborate on a point, you get accused of beating a dead horse. (When obviously you are simply trying to give the courtesy of a more detailed explanation.)

    We all post here, in a forum such as this, to create a dialogue and elicit a conversation (otherwise we would all most likely be scribbling our thoughts in our own private journals).
    But some people online will troll you hard in order to get a response, and it has been my experience to NOT respond to those folks, since being ignored is the worst thing that can happen on a forum for someone TRYING desperately to egg you on.

    Just my two cents.

  267. charles
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Now that we’re on the topic of cunt-gate. Doesn’t anyone else think thy word is overused in the show? It’s like every time there’s some kind of insult it’s immidiately cunt. I think there’s been at least four or five instances where the same word is used

    “He’s always been a cunt”

    “The war for Cersei’s cunt” (even though this one comes from the books i think)

    and a few others. the word feels like doggystyle in season one. Like a go-to word for insults/edgy language.

  268. digitals3rf
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky:
    digitals3rf,

    I’m not going to defend the twitter harpies, but I never agreed with this sort of argument. Even if I can’t run a TV show or write fiction, compose music or paint (but I can read and write Fortran 77 code!), I can still say if I liked other person’s creation or not and why I liked/disliked it.
    There are movies I don’t like because they look terrible or make no sense. Some music sounds like a horrible puke-inducing noise to me. There are books, even those which are considered classics, that I dislike for being boring. What I want to say is that it’s OK to criticize stuff even if you can’t do better, you just have to be civil about it.

    Fully agreed, but the problem is in the narrow view of purists, who don’t even see the larger picture of episodes that haven’t aired yet, one “infraction” is cause to go hog wild. I wouldn’t be surprised if down the line many of these criticisms are forgotten or cease to matter anymore. Time has that effect. But incivility to Brian Cogman or anyone else who works on the show is just plain wrong.

  269. Matt Chung
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky:
    MattL86,

    I don’t think it’s the case. I love GoT and I think it’s a good adaptation, but my absolute favorite show of all time is Breaking Bad, which is perfect in every aspect and beyond criticism.
    I do have some minor nitpicking about the show, but the good outweighs the bad by orders of magnitude. I can’t speak for the others, but I’d like a place where I can discuss the show as a TV show, and not go through hundreds of posts like WHERE ARE THE REEDS?!?!?! OMG THEY RUINED EVERYONE!!!!!111 RENLY DIDN’T HAVE A PEACH!!!!! ROS SUCKS!!!!! (pun not intended)etc etc etc. That’s why I don’t go to westeros.org (I’ve visited it several times, but even lurking there is not fun, and that’s what I mostly do on sites like these) and that’s why I stopped opening the book reader recap posts on this site.

    I feel very much the same. Every time I open a book reader discussion all I get is negativity and people complaining and not understanding how hard it truly is to make an adaptation. I’ve steered away from reading comments now because they usually just ruin the show for me. There are valid criticisms… and then there are shitty criticisms. Saying “I think Ros gets too much screen time, to be honest” is fair, but saying “ROS HAS COMPLETELY RUINED THE SHOW FUCKING SLUT” is not.

    I think that some book readers feel a sense of entitlement, like they “deserve” a “better” show, and when it doesn’t deliver for them, all hell breaks loose. Come on guys, be a little more flexible. So what if Qarth isn’t as grand as it is in the books? You know what that would have cost? Money. And if they’d spent money on that, then they’re have to take money away from elsewhere. Cut even MORE characters than before. Worse yet, what if they’d cut the BoB for Qarth? Or if they’d just shot Beyond the Wall in a studio and then have the Tullys stand around and do virtually nothing for a while? That would be terrible. Fact is that the show could probably not be any better than it already is, and if you hate the show, then go back to the books. It’s not like anyone has suddenly taken those away from you to enjoy. Show’s a bloody bonus, if anything.

  270. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Yes DH87, your True Blood posts crack me up haha, just take a little comfort that we at least experienced joy in reading your (miserable)-life-as-a-true-blood-fan posts.

    I think the whole positive/negative comments on this site can be categorized in 4 categories:

    - well thought out praise for the show
    - well thought out critique for the show
    - EPISODE AWESOME, YEAHA
    - THEY FUCKED IT UP, WRAARGHGGHGH!

    I’ve read a lot of threads over here and the only comments really getting a lot vitriol are the last-category comments, and though I never get worked up about these types of comments I do get that some commenters here just see them as a bunch of partypoopers and call them out on it. But I also understand that the 3rd category comments can be annoying as shit for people who just aren’t digging it that much this year. Sycophantism is the worst thing that can creep into a fandom (just think about all the yessayers surrounding GRRM telling him ADWD was a true masterpiece, lol), and should be avoided at all costs.

    But I really don’t think the recap-threads have turned into a cesspit of trolls and sycophants, there’s a lot of good stuff there to be found and I see no reason for people to be afraid to post their thoughts there.

  271. MoonCoffee
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    I’m all for calls to be respectful of one another, and I hope that includes not expecting everyone to be 100% happy and accepting with every choice made in the show. Shutting people up (unless about their rudeness like the aptly named “Dick” above) and calling troll to someone whose motivation is obviously not trying to stir shit for fun, is the other side of the rude criticism coin.

    PS: Count me in among those who don’t agree with the choice of insult Yara uses in episode 8 btw. Yes, even said to a man.

  272. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    I have a crackpot theory about DH87 – she’s Charlaine Harris (the writer of the books True Blood is “based” on), secretly venting her extreme frustration with True Blood :)

  273. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    After all that long-winded blathering, I see I neglected to offer the primary evidence of AB’s mind set: he took ten books featuring (1) a heroine and (2) a charismatic anti-hero, and elevated instead a secondary character the author had planned to kill off, casting that part with someone who looks like his brother in real life (closer in age to AB than to the part as written) and marginalized the most popular actor (Skarsgard), playing the most popular character from the books, to keep his alter-ego on center stage. He constructed an entirely new and sympathetic Bill/AB, made him king of the world, and savior of all mankind and was hurt when fans booed him at ComiCon.

    So, roughly the equivalent of D&D making the story about Rhaego, and Dany’s just his mom? :)

  274. kingthlayer
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    I think it’s natural that folks don’t bother to badger folks that are overwhelmingly happy with something. Also I think the 3 and 4 examples are often in response to each other. Its almost like a situation where those in love with something are on a mission to convert those that don’t like it to much and are a little overzealous about it and it then becomes heated and then it all eventually calms down. Internet conversations are emotional.

  275. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    I just wish the criticism was actually respectful of the hundreds of people who put hundreds and thousands of hours of hard work into the product. What does that mean to me?

    No ridiculous hyperbole. No personal attacks. Acknowledging that the people working on this project are successful professionals — not incompetent fools.

    An honest attempt to see the other side, or why things might have been done differently. I think you’d be surprised at the level of changes forced by change of media, budget and collaborative filmmaking. A lot of the things you dislike, they may also regret. Or maybe it was the best choice out there (the Hunt in season one is a good example. There’s great commentary on why it is — you can tell it was mostly budget for a late added scene).

    An acknowledgement that there’s a lot of third party evidence that this is a pretty good show (ratings, reviews, awards), and so while you may not like it, it is not the worst show ever.

    Understanding that it’s normal human nature to hate changes because they are changes (it doesn’t mean that’s the only reason you hate the change, but its always part of it).

    It’d be nice if 95% of a post wasn’t criticism. Was there NOTHING you liked about the episode? If you hated it that much, why keep watching? Are you only on here to vent? If the last point is true, we need a venting thread. Because a lot of us don’t want to hear it.

    And lastly, phrasing things in terms of “I didn’t like” instead of “that was stupid.”

    In return, the more positive folks should be just as respectful, refrain from personal attacks, phrase similarly, acknowledge even the people making it think there were mistakes, and give those posting criticisms the benefit of the doubt that these are their honest criticisms with no ridiculous hyperbole or exaggerations.

    It’d be nice. It won’t likely happen. Too many people love ASOIF too much.

  276. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky:
    I have a crackpot theory about DH87 – she’s Charlaine Harris (the writer of the books True Blood is “based” on), secretly venting her extreme frustration with True Blood :)

    She did say she was a romance writer! Could someone consider the Sookie novels romance?

    Might also explain the Skarsgard obsession!

  277. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Thanks, guys—if you have been a TB fan, you either are laughing on the outside and crying on the inside, deep in Jim Jones-level denial, or twelve-stepping your way out of four years of serious disappointment. Some of the GOT fandom will follow the same route, they just don’t realize that yet. (And although I don’t run a TB blog I can be found at several of them, particularly Sookieverse.com, where I’ve been a guest blogger.)

    I am fifty thousand times happier with D&D on their worst day than with Dr. Evil on his best, however, and nothing, nothing they do can match what has happened to TB. They want to do the very best they can by the material, for one thing, and as long as GRRM is on board, we should trust. That doesn’t mean we can’t still point out a few things that misfire.

    Now let’s all hold hands and sing.

  278. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky: I have a crackpot theory about DH87 – she’s Charlaine Harris (the writer of the books True Blood is “based” on), secretly venting her extreme frustration with True Blood :)

    You’re not the first to suggest that, my friend.

  279. Alan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    DH87: You’re not the first to suggest that, my friend.

    And that’s not a denial.

  280. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Alan: So, roughly the equivalent of D&D making the story about Rhaego, and Dany’s just his mom? :)

    Or a story about Dhaego and Dany, two gay novelists who hatch eggs for a living in Westeros while planning to set up a Vampire government run by the guy from Law & Order: Special Victims Unit.

  281. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Alan: No doubt.I have no dog in the c* fight.

    Now THAT is a visual.

  282. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Thanks, guys—if you have been a TB fan, you either are laughing on the outside and crying on the inside, deep in Jim Jones-level denial, or twelve-stepping your way out of four years of serious disappointment. Some of the GOT fandom will follow the same route, they just don’t realize that yet. (And although I don’t run a TB blog I can be found at several of them, particularly Sookieverse.com, where I’ve been a guest blogger.)

    I just stopped caring about what goes on in the show somewhere around episode 2 or 3 of the 4th season. I still watched the show in hopes that the 4th season will have at least some of the goodness of the book (IMO the 4th book is the best of the series), but I was mistaken and all I got for the finale was the ghost of Sookie’s grandma pulling the ghost of Marnie out of Lafayette and convincing her to depart to afterlife (I think that’s what happened, correct me if I’m wrong). And yes, it is as batshit insane as it sounds, but it was written by the same people who turned a decent hard-working man into a crazy drug dealer for no apparent reason (Calvin Norris, in case anyone wonders), so I shouldn’t be surprised.

    I don’t consider myself a huge books fan, so I won’t have a long lasting psychological damage from watching this show. Now it’s somewhere between “so bad it’s hilarious” and “so bad it’s horrible”. I’ll check out the first couple of episodes of the 5th season in order to see into which category it will finally fall.

  283. purplejilly
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    charles:
    Now that we’re on the topic of cunt-gate. Doesn’t anyone else think thy word is overused in the show? It’s like every time there’s some kind of insult it’s immidiately cunt. I think there’s been at least four or five instances where the same word is used

    “He’s always been a cunt”

    “The war for Cersei’s cunt” (even though this one comes from the books i think)

    and a few others. the word feels like doggystyle in season one. Like a go-to word for insults/edgy language.

    Yes – I feel it’s quite overused.

  284. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Cunt was used a fair amount in the ASOIAF books, along with loads of other swears. The War for Cersei’s Cunt, people calling people “camel cunts” in the Braavos chapters, used in connection with Brienne, the asshole who keeps calling Asha a cunt in the last book, and on and on.

    I can see why people would question Yara using the word, but I don’t think Asha side-eyeing use of the word in ADWD necessarily means she would never have used it herself. Someone like her presenting a hardass face to her men , trying to not show vulnerability, might’ve used all sorts of crude not-woman-friendly language at some point. And of course, this is the TV show, not the book. Yara, not Asha.

    I tried to google to get a more precise idea of ASOIAF quotes using the word “Cunt” but I kept running into link after link to explicit GoT fanfic. :\

  285. Meg
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    @ charles – personally I think it’s a word that is best used by characters who are the epitome of misogyny, like Joffrey. The writers shouldn’t censor offensive words, but they should match the character. It makes no sense for Asha/Yara to say it to anyone. “The worst thing you can call a girl is a girl. The worst thing you can call a guy is a girl. Being a woman is the ultimate insult. Now tell me that’s not royally fucked up.” – Jessica Valenti

    ETA: OitF, Yara should have understood that putting on a hardass face to the men and not showing vulnerability is what Theon was doing (or at least trying to do). To call him a cunt for it only makes him more likely to die by putting on a hardass face to his men and not showing vulnerability. Yara of all people should understand this viscous cycle of hegemonic masculinity and how it = death, destruction. Calling him a dumb cunt to make herself look like a hardass while trying to save Theon’s life is at cross purposes.

  286. Knurk
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    Cunt was used a fair amount in the ASOIAF books, along with loads of other swears. The War for Cersei’s Cunt, people calling people “camel cunts” in the Braavos chapters, used in connection with Brienne, the asshole who keeps calling Asha a cunt in the last book, and on and on.

    I can see why people would question Yara using the word, but I don’t think Asha side-eyeing use of the word in ADWD necessarily means she would never have used it herself. Someone like her presenting a hardass face to her men , trying to not show vulnerability, might’ve used all sorts of crude not-woman-friendly language at some point. And of course, this is the TV show, not the book. Yara, not Asha.

    I tried to google to get a more precise idea of ASOIAF quotes using the word “Cunt” but I kept running into link after link to explicit GoT fanfic. :

    here’s a fun topic at IsWinterComing?: http://www.iswintercoming.com/the-grossening-of-asoiaf-t411.html

    The use of the word cunt:
    GoT:1
    CoK: 8
    SoS: 5
    FfC: 12
    DwD: 28 (!)

  287. DH87
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    The word is much more pejorative in the U.S. than in the U.K., as I think has been touched upon before. In many segments of U.S. society it is the equivalent of the “n-word” and its use remains deeply offensive. Tolerance for the term among women has a similar history as the “n word” in the African American community, on the theory that co-opted use inoculates the victim of the insult from the pain and insult it is intended to inflict.
    In the U.K. romantic comedy series “The Book Club,” the American heroine flings it about with no repercussions. That would not happen in any similar U.S. TV comedy anywhere but on premium cable. No advertiser would stand for it.
    Interestingly, I see in this thread is that the “c-word” is spelled out by all posters, male and female, in a way I doubt the “n word” would be.

  288. Del
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Sorry for the disrespectful comments that was coming your way, B-Cog. Fan communities can bring out some really interesting sorts out of the woodwork. Just keep doing what you’re doing, majority of us are enjoying it.

    DB,

    I just simply don’t understand. First the Sansa thing, now this.

  289. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Frankly, I don’t think Asha gives a shit about the “vicious cycle of hegemonic masculinity.” She loves being Ironborn, being a reiver and a pirate. Her only problem is that they won’t let her be a leader simply because she was born with the ‘wrong’ genitalia. But she has no interest in elevating women in general, only herself.

    I don’t know why anyone was bothering Cogman about Yara saying ‘cunt’ to begin with. He didn’t write the episode. The story editor’s job isn’t to go nuts on every single word choice to be certain the book fans won’t consider it a conflict of character.

    Misogyny is interesting to examine, I don’t mean it can’t be discussed, only that I found it ridiculous to pester Cogman about the Yara use of it.

  290. midnightblack07
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    I don”t blame him one bit to be honest.

    Opening up too much to the fan base isn’t in anyone’s best interest, whether it be cast or crew. If I were in their shoes I’d just go about my work and try to steer clear, and really if something is especially unpopular or vice-versa with the fans, they’re bound to hear about it anyway without being bombarded with Tweets.

  291. Heart of Wynter
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    just a quick thought, about a comment about a hundred or so back, in regards to karstarks naming of the father, anyone ever think maybe that scene was looked at out of context? I mean look at it like this maybe, Karstark a man of the north desendant of the first men, and follower of the old gods, would be willing to give his life to the much loathed 7 gods of the south for his sons to rise from the earth. shall we all ponder this maybe before calling it a mistake.

  292. Lex
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Knurk: here’s a fun topic at IsWinterComing?: http://www.iswintercoming.com/the-grossening-of-asoiaf-t411.html

    The use of the word cunt:
    GoT:1
    CoK: 8
    SoS: 5
    FfC: 12
    DwD: 28 (!)

    I remember when I first bought ADWD last year, on release day. I opened the book randomly, and the first word I saw was cunt. LOL!

  293. Ed
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Having lived in the US for 46 years, I can state unequivocally that you are completely wrong here.

    DH87:
    In many segments of U.S. society it is the equivalent of the “n-word” and its use remains deeply offensive.

  294. Ed
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Good post! (thumbs up)

    Alan:
    I just wish the criticism was actually respectful of the hundreds of people who put hundreds and thousands of hours of hard work into the product.What does that mean to me?

    No ridiculous hyperbole.No personal attacks.Acknowledging that the people working on this project are successful professionals — not incompetent fools.

    An honest attempt to see the other side, or why things might have been done differently.I think you’d be surprised at the level of changes forced by change of media, budget and collaborative filmmaking.A lot of the things you dislike, they may also regret.Or maybe it was the best choice out there (the Hunt in season one is a good example.There’s great commentary on why it is — you can tell it was mostly budget for a late added scene).

    An acknowledgement that there’s a lot of third party evidence that this is a pretty good show (ratings, reviews, awards), and so while you may not like it, it is not the worst show ever.

    Understanding that it’s normal human nature to hate changes because they are changes (it doesn’t mean that’s the only reason you hate the change, but its always part of it).

    It’d be nice if 95% of a post wasn’t criticism.Was there NOTHING you liked about the episode?If you hated it that much, why keep watching?Are you only on here to vent?If the last point is true, we need a venting thread.Because a lot of us don’t want to hear it.

    And lastly, phrasing things in terms of “I didn’t like” instead of “that was stupid.”

    In return, the more positive folks should be just as respectful, refrain from personal attacks, phrase similarly, acknowledge even the people making it think there were mistakes, and give those posting criticisms the benefit of the doubt that these are their honest criticisms with no ridiculous hyperbole or exaggerations.

    It’d be nice.It won’t likely happen.Too many people love ASOIF too much.

  295. Aaron
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader and a lover of the show, I think that Ice and Fire fans are without question the worst fans in existence. Just miserable, spoiled brats who would rather complain than enjoy an amazing TV show. I hope they change EVERYTHING just to spite them.

  296. DB
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Del:
    DB,
    I just simply don’t understand.First the Sansa thing, now this.

    I just like to make sure people know this shit’s a problem, you know? Maybe it’ll turn into a big enough problem for the writers to come into the thread and take note of it, which has happened. That’s my goal lol. People need to understand that ASoIaF is pretty feminist. GRRM chose to make this a fantasy series that’s as close to real life as possible; he chose to make Westeros a misogynistic place and then give characters like Cat POV chapters instead of Robb, Melisandre instead of Stannis, and Asha, Sansa, Cersei, Dany, etc. The show, however, is the exact opposite of feminist at this moment.

    If you want a much more coherent explanation of how this show has become grossly sexist thanks to this ep, go here

  297. Dan
    Posted May 22, 2012 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    Please stop acting like you are speaking an objective fact. Many people here have presented arguments that make the exact opposite case as you on this issue. This is simply your opinion and opinion I would imagine is very much in the minority.

  298. Lex
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Knurk:
    DwD: 28 (!)

    Incidentally, I’m actually re-reading ADWD right now, and I just finished the first Asha chapter. It contained 6 of those 28 usages of cunt, in one chapter alone. She was called cunt 4 times, and used the word twice herself, in her internal thoughts, while having sex.

  299. spacechampion
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    DB,
    It’s an unfortunate word choice. “Would it have killed them to use some other word?” That statement implies the writers chose ‘cunt’ over something else purely to denigrate women.

    It’s sexism, but it’s hardly deliberate. Lesson learned for the future, I hope, though.

    This is silly. The character Yara chose to denigrate the character Theon. That is ALL that it was.

    DB:
    If you want a much more coherent explanation of how this show has become grossly sexist thanks to this ep, go here

    When Jaime has sex with Cersei, you don’t think GRRM himself is committing incest do you?

  300. DH87
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Ed: Having lived in the US for 46 years, I can state unequivocally that you are completely wrong here.

    Please free to go into any board room, church, diplomatic or political function, or business social event and shout both words at female attendees and report back to us how their reactions differ.

  301. MoonCoffee
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,
    I don’t think Asha cares that much about reaving and pirating, as what she did in the Kingsmoot suggested. She was the only candidate presenting the option of peace and admitting that attacking the North was a mistake, in opposition to the more “manly” glory and plunder promises from the others, and in opposition to the Ironborn culture that sees voluntary surender as shameful.

    As for elevating women in general, I don’t recall reading she wants that, but I don’t recall reading she doesn’t want that and only care about elevating herself either. It’s one thing to desire a change in culture, and another to actively campaign for it, especially in a land and time where such effort is almost certainly futile. What we do know, is that Asha does think about sexism as suggested by her thoughts about the ‘cunt’ insult in ADWD. It can be argued that ‘odd’ doesn’t mean she resent it (whereas I believe that ‘odd’ in a sarcastic sentence means that yes, she resents it and the sentiment that women in her world are only valued for their cunts), and arguments can be done until everyone’s blue in the face, but in the end it comes back to what GRRM says she meant. Hmm, maybe someone can ask him politely about it?

    That said, even after reading all the pros and cons from people, I still think that the decision to have Yara use ‘cunt’ insult to Theon is not a good one. Those who doesn’t care about feminism in ASoIaF shouldn’t have any attachment to what word she uses to insult people, they’ll feel the same either way. Those who does and likes Asha for that line in ADWD wouldn’t like if she uses it, and dare I say feel betrayed (in a more hurtful way then “why did Jaime kill his cousin??” because real-life issues and culture are involved) when Yara says it. Therefore, the more apt choice that is not unfaithful to her character yet entertains the maximum amount of fans would be using a different word. I don’t know why D&D put that in, but if I may guess, they’re just not used to think about these things and therefore overlooked it like Karstark swore to the Father was overlooked.

  302. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    digitals3rf: Lord Commander.

    Yes. This.

  303. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Ed:
    Having lived in the US for 46 years, I can state unequivocally that you are completely wrong here.

    That is a matter of opinion, and cannot be generally stated. The “c” word is worse than the “f” word in many circles, and not comparable to the “n” word as the meanings aren’t comparable. In terms of GOT use of the “c” word, I was a bit shocked by it at first but realized that GOT occurs in a more “British” based world where it’s still a “loaded” word but probably not perceived as socially unacceptable in the proper contexts. Mostly it’s used in private situations, not in the Throne Room while giving speeches.

  304. Blourd
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    He’s a geek like the rest of us. He won’t be gone long.

  305. Langkard
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Since the only Twitter stuff I ever see is in FaB’s re-Tweets here each week and occasional peeks at something interesting in WiC’s twitter updates on the sidebar, I am not as concerned as some that Bryan Cogman has dumped Twitter. He has every right to do so and I respect his decision. In fact, I suspect that his enjoyment of life will be immensely improved by not having to deal with the typical internet Dick‘s who think having access to the internet makes their opinions infallible. Keep up the great work, Mr. Cogman and don’t let the cretins get you down.

  306. Jordan Healey
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    It’s kind of weird because there are waaaaaaaaaay more show fanboys on this site than there are book loyalists (less of which, angry book loyalists).

    I suppose it does only take a few nasty comments to put people off though.

  307. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    MoonCoffee,

    It is undeniable at this point that she would use the word. She uses it twice while having sex. Yes, it’s her inner monologue but it would be weird to argue that she has no problem referring to her lady parts as a cunt but draws the line at speaking the word out loud. Plus the burden of proof is on the people who are claiming she would’ve never said it while they have offered up zero evidence to prove this. In fact, all the actual evidence contradicts the claim or at least makes the claim very suspect.

    Whether the decision to use it is a good one is an entirely separate argument. I don’t want them basing their decisions on what will offend the least amount of people. Once you start going down that path I feel the writing starts to suffer. They should just stick with the words they feel best suits the story they want to tell and don’t worry about appeasing certain groups who might get offended by their word choices. I mean they just recently had an episode where two little kids were murdered, burnt to a crisp, and put on display. I’m guessing that kind of stuff turns some people off, just maybe. Should they leave that scene out to appease people who are offended by seeing charred children? Or should they only worry about offending feminists?

  308. iLikeAxes
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    I kind of understand him, but on the other hand I think he’s takin it too personally. The solution to fix it is the same nonetheless, if it pisses you off and you don’t really benefit from it, leave it.

    I left facebook, I will never ever be on twitter. To me these are not tools, but burdens I am better off without. Time is spend better doing almost anything else.

  309. DB
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:54 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    Wow, you really don’t understand do you? There’s a difference between using that word to refer to your cunt and using it to demean a woman. When Asha is thinking about the word, she is literally thinking about her female genetalia. When Sluggs is yelling the word at her, he means it to demean her because to Sluggs, female=bad. I don’t know how much plainer I can put this for you. I can sense that the possibility that your beloved series might be feminist scares the shit out of you and that you’re putting up your defenses against that like mad. Don’t be scared, there’s a whole world of knowledge out there for you. Also, stop trying to derail the conversation with your ‘appeasing people who don’t like seeing charred children.’

  310. MoonCoffee
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    Dan:

    In the ‘evidence’, she used it to describe her physical cunt, not in the context of insult, not putting it in negative light. A cunt is a cunt. And a world, sometimes ;)

    You say they should stick to the word that suits the story. Why, then, do they feel it best suits the story they want to tell? Every word has a cultural basis behind it. Can they explain why that suits the story and her whole character better than ‘shit’, ‘pathetic’, ‘fool’, ‘prick’ and so on? ‘Cunt’ is a loaded insult word, not only in our world’s cultures, but also in Westeros going by at least Asha’s POV and Arya’s. I think the analogy would be Jon Snow using ‘bastard’ to insult a non-bastard, or Loras using ‘cocksucker’ against a straight man, or Tyrion using ‘imp’ to a normal-bodied person. It feels wrong.

    I have no problem with Bronn using it, or Tyrion, or other male characters (well maybe not Ned), or a female character who doesn’t think about sexism. But it’s Yara saying it that popped up to me as I watch. Asha has not used that as an insult. Would she ever use it? Maybe, if GRRM write that in in the next book. But at this moment, there is zero evidence that she would, as well as a suggestion that she thinks of it in sexism context. That is an issue related to feminism, and so yes, in this specific instance I think they would better find a word that is not demeaning towards women–towards Asha herself, something broader than “offending feminists”. I can expand this in the context of general sexism and how rare a character like Asha is in media, but that’d be too long and will wander too far from the initial topic I think.

    It’s not the same thing with showing charred children. Culturally (in every culture, I think), charring children is bad, and that’s what it’s presented as: charring children is bad.

  311. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    DB,

    See, this is what I don’t get. I disagree with you but I don’t go around insulting you. Why should I even take you seriously at this point? Even if I disagree by making a similar argument as Ours is the Fury and other females on here, you still insult me by accusing me of being scared of feminism. You insult my knowledge of the world simply based on me disagreeing with you on this point and challenging you to prove that Asha would never utter the word like you originally said. Why should I believe you are interested in any kind of thoughtful discussion? Would it make you feel better if I just said I agree with you even though I don’t?

  312. goober
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:15 am | Permalink

    the internet eh.same old same old

  313. DB
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    I’m not trying to insult your knowledge, I’m simply denying it’s existance

  314. Andrew
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    I think there is a fairly important difference between a femenist series, and a series that portrays females in a mostly positive light. ASoIAF isnt a vehicle for womens rights, and I dont think GRRM is trying to send a political message with it. Just because females arent all portayed as strong, independent heroes doesnt make the show sexist, just like not portraying them in a negative light doesn’t make it femenist.

    That “Girls are stupid” post was especially bad, having missed the point of Jeynes story entirely. She isnt against playing the harp and all that because she doesnt want to be girly, shes against it because she thinks that doing such highborn activities are a waste. It was about her class, not her gender. Robb, thanks to his father, also has more compassion for the smallfolk than most lords, and thats why he loves her. Not because she doesnt like being girly.

  315. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:05 am | Permalink

    MoonCoffee,

    Now this is what a thoughtful response looks like, DB.

    You say they should stick to the word that suits the story. Why, then, do they feel it best suits the story they want to tell?

    I can’t speak for the writers but I could posit a guess as to why they felt it best suited that scene. In that scene Theon is coming in like the conquering hero and thinks he’s actually done a great thing. She tries to challenge this idiotic notion but Theon wanted to argue the point. She calls him a dumb cunt to forcefully make her point that his decisions were disasterous. Calling someone a dumb cunt has a lot more weight to it than just saying dumb shit, fool, etc. She is not just saying that his decision is stupid but it is weak, immature, dangerous, and cowardly. After all of Theons reactions and bad decisions I think that he earned the most demeaning word from her she could use, thus dumb cunt.

    Asha has not used that as an insult. Would she ever use it? Maybe, if GRRM write that in in the next book. But at this moment, there is zero evidence that she would, as well as a suggestion that she thinks of it in sexism context. That is an issue related to feminism, and so yes, in this specific instance I think they would better find a word that is not demeaning towards women–towards Asha herself, something broader than “offending feminists”.

    I’ve already made my case on why I believe it fits Asha’s character. So this is just a disagreement on how we interpret the same text. Nowhere does Asha say that she abhors the word and would never use it so it just comes down to how we individually interpret her character. I don’t have a problem if you say you think it works better with her not saying it. I don’t have a problem with you saying you think it is out of character for her in your opinion. I do have a problem when people say it was wrong for her to say it. I have a problem when people accuse the writers of not understanding Asha for having her say it. That is a subjective opinion and not an objective fact.

    It’s not the same thing with showing charred children. Culturally (in every culture, I think), charring children is bad, and that’s what it’s presented as: charring children is bad.

    Culturally (in every culture, I think) calling someone a cunt is demeaning, and that’s how it was presented as: calling Theon a dumb cunt is demeaning. That isn’t even my point though. I brought up the charred children because you said that not using the word would entertain the maximum amount of fans. So if that is how we are basing the decisions then what if not charring kids entertains the maximum amount of fans? What if not killing Ned entertains the most people? My point was that they shouldn’t base their decisions just on what entertains the maximum amount of people or what offends the least. They can’t please everyone and shouldn’t try. It’s fine if people want to express their displeasure with a decision but I just can’t stand when they state their opinion as a fact.

  316. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    Andrew,

    Yes, great points.

  317. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Someone needs to give you a hug. There is much hate in you.

  318. Kate
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:21 am | Permalink

    I’m glad Bryan has left twitter. As much as I liked to hear about his doings, the sad thing is that twitter allows everyone to contact directly to him.

    Most people who would talk directly to Bryan are far from being the average viewer of the show. They tend to be rude, manichean, and give way too much importance to the fact that some character or storyline has been changed from the book. And I don’t want the writers having the feeling that they have done a bad work. As much as their product has room for improvement, they work has been a huge success so far.

  319. LV
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    MoonCoffee’s interpretation is closer to the text and appropriate with respect to real-world concerns – which, of course, always count (there is nothing more ridiculous in this context than the supposed argument that Westeros is a secondary world where our standards shouldn’t be applied).
    Personally, I don’t understand why D&D felt it neccessary to use such a loaded insult, especially since Asha is, in fact, a rare type of character. A poster above criticised the feminist interpretation of her character: I disagree. And while I’m familiar with the critique of Asha as a not-so-feminist character, I find the arguments against her brought forth in this thread rather unconvincing. Asha is not particularly insecure, neither regarding her profession or social status nor her sexuality (ADWD makes this clear especially). One can argue about the feminist merit of a character who advances above her conventional (and oppressive) role by ‘emulating’ male behaviour. But to deny that Asha is a strong, decisive, intelligent woman is weird indeed.
    As for your reply to MoonCoffee’s post: The fact alone that Asha reflects on the word, its use and the particular irony behind it, is sufficient to make a ‘big thing’ out of it. Her awareness is what the text tells us. And compared to the level of reflection Martin’s high-born female characters in this world normally show when it comes to convention, tradition and oppression, it is very significant. We don’t know if she would ever use the word herself as an insult – but we know what she thinks about the brutes around her using it.
    When people say, that Yara’s insult was out of character when compared with Asha, it’s textually more sound than to deny this. Of course, Yara is not Asha, so D&D can do as they damned well please (as always). And I see no reason why Yara shouldn’t use the word in the context of D&D’s writing so far. BUT there is the not-so-small matter of real-world message, real-world concerns. And it is in this context that I find Yara’s (better: D&D’s) choice a bit strange, to be honest. Why use the word when Yara’s template in the novels reflects so prominently about it, embodies – for many readers – certain feminist traits, provides an opinionated and strong perspective on matters of social role and oppression?
    Maybe D&D should have written it differently.

    Ah, sorry for this wall of text… I just wanted to make a point while being aware of your valid interpretation. After all, we should not emulate those who drove Cogman away from the community on twitter. :)

  320. LV
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    And I forgot to affirm MoonCoffee’s distinction between Asha’s private use of the word referring to her own sex (and in a particular sexual context) on the one hand and the men’s derogatroy, insulting misogynist use of it. Your argument conflates both contexts in a way that overlooks almost everything that is important to those contexts.
    This is, again, not to say anything about Yara and the question of whether her use of the word in the series is out of character – as I said above, I don’t think that it is.

  321. NousWanderer
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Thanks for the insightful, spot-on post, Lex (and thanks as well to many of the others who preceded your views as expressed here). You’re one of the people I consistently agree with on WiC. It’s an attitudinal thing.

    A pity about Cogman. He’s a smart fellow, but I think this is probably for the best. What he has to do is far more important, and it’s better if his head is in the game and not battling uphill against an avalanche of social maladjusts cloaked in internet shrouds.

    For what it’s worth, the complete and utter inability to read between the lines, the deficient long term memory, the apocalyptic barking and the insane lack of patience many of the purists and/or non-purist haters display is one of the reasons I find it difficult to interact with this community. In a way, I relate to Brian.

  322. NousWanderer
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Here’s a quote for the violently pessimistic, creator-hating, aspiring screenwriters in the audience:

    “Cynicism is often the shamefaced product of inexperience.”
    –A.J. Liebling

    Don’t stop doing what you’re doing, Brian. The show is bloody grand.

  323. charles
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    I don’t have a problem with the use of the word in the show, not in the slightest. I just think they treat it as a go-to word for insults, etc so much that everytime its used it takes me out of the experience a little because i start to think “that’s another time they used it”. In fact i’ve seen some reviews where the writer points this out as well so i know i’m not the only one. Just a little pet peeve, like only doggy-style sex in season one.

  324. The Hawk
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    too bad for Bryan he’s hands down the best (non-GRRM) writer on the show and has shown a grasp and command of the characters better than anybody but George…there were some plot holes in his episode but I like that he writes longer scenes with the characters and gives them a chance to breathe…as far as Vanessa Taylor goes she has never met a stale, cheesy television trope that she doesn’t like and hopefully she never writes another episode of the show…

    I know what an adaptation is and I don’t mind changes from the source text for the sake of storytelling in a different medium so long as it is accomplished with and through “good” storytelling, logical plot threads, and character actions consistent with who and what those characters are and what their motivations are…this season of GOT has fallen far short of the mark of good storytelling on too many occasions for me to give it anything more than a “meh” and most often the “changes” between book and screen come off as nothing more than change for the sake of change and they do not make the story or characters stronger or better…

    now please feel free to disregard all of this and label me a “book purist” because I decry sloppy storytelling in any medium…

  325. The Winter Rose
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    Wow! Thanks so much! :D

  326. userj
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Oitf: just to clarify what happened .
    A polite poster questioned the use of the word in a general tweet
    Bryan replied to this with “she said it to a man”
    Many people replied to this (rather thoughtless and snarky) comment in negative terms.

    No one was “harassing” bryan for D&Ds original use of the word.
    They were upset that he would write off the legit concerns of the first poster so easily and with such a shallow and nonsensical “reason”.

  327. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    userj,

    I saw everything that happened. I wasn’t referring only to the cunt issue when I referred to obnoxious harassing behavior. I followed Cogman, so I could see all the time he was responding to rude questions and comments from people about the show.

  328. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    The Hawk,

    What’s there to disregard? You didn’t say anything of any substance. No examples, no explanations, just blanket complaints about “pacing” and “character” and “clichès”. If you’ve got something to complain about, then at least complain about it.

  329. Alan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    The Hawk:

    I know what an adaptation is and I don’t mind changes from the source text for the sake of storytelling in a different medium so long as it is accomplished with and through “good” storytelling, logical plot threads, and character actions consistent with who and what those characters are and what their motivations are… most often the “changes” between book and screen come off as nothing more than change for the sake of change and they do not make the story or characters stronger or better…

    I personally doubt that the writers are changing anything for the sake of changes.

    Do the changes make the story or characters better? You seem to think not. I think there are some cases where they do and some where they don’t.

    But I also think if your comparison is “is the story in the show better thanreading the book” that’s not a valid comparison point.

    Why not? I simply don’t think people understand the difficulties of adaptation to a different medium. Yes, the words are there, but the difficulties are immense.

    Budget is all encompassing. It’s not just battles; it’s characters, it’s days of shooting. It’s simplifying blocking and timing to get the shot in. Why don’t we have Weasel Soup, for example? I’m 99% sure it’s because of the cost of adding extra characters and the cost of time to explain what happened else at the castle during weasel soup.

    And budget isn’t just money. It’s 9 hours to show over 1,000 pages across hundreds of characters.

    Translation of a book is also incredibly difficult when the book has a tremendous amount of character development in a person’s thoughts. In a show, you need to translate those to words and actions — and while description is longer on a page than on a screen — words and actions take forever. Things need to become more obvious and yet more subtle, because no one says exactly what they mean!

    And don’t forget that no one can do this by themselves. There’s a little bit of D&D, Cogman, Taylor, Alan Taylor (who directed), each actor, each crewmember, the editor, etc. in every scene. Each person can change it a bit and you can’t control it all.

    And sometimes, you know, a scene is there and it doesn’t work.

    The level of difficulty is INCREDIBLY high for this show. Yes, some things are as good as the book. Some things have been better. Perhaps more things are worse.

    But it’s important to understand that they are often picking the best choice out of a bunch of things that even they may feel are ALL worse than reading the book.

    The idea that they sit around changing things just to change them is silly. Certain things don’t work on screen. The whole story won’t fit. They can’t pay for everything.

    So you make choices.

    ———–

    Lastly, I loved Bryan’s episode this year, and I love that he interacts with the fans. But the idea that D&D are bad writers is kind of silly. Bryan’s published works (as far as I know) consist of two eps of GOT — one very good, one decent in terms of show quality.

    D&D have their hand in any script — including some scenes that are in Bryan’s episode or the Pointy End last year that people love and still give credit to Martin for. Benioff, in particular, has a pretty good resume. Both have published novels.

    They wrote some of the best episodes of the show. They may not write all the words, but most of the structural choices (this happens, this happens) are their ideas and all of them are subject to their approval.

    Just because you don’t like some of the changes, doesn’t mean they are bad writers.

  330. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Hahahaha! While that IS funny, it doesn’t mean anything.

    You can say the C word in particular company and really offend people, certainly.

    You say the N word in the wrong crowd and you will be killed.

    DH87: Please free to go into any board room, church, diplomatic or political function, or business social event and shout both words at female attendees and report back to us how their reactions differ.

  331. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: That is a matter of opinion, and cannot be generally stated.

    No, it’s a fact.

  332. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    The best post on here in a long, long, time. :-)

    goober:
    the internet eh.same old same old

  333. B Cogman
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    userj,

    Ok, let’s set something straight here.

    I wasn’t responding to a general tweet, it was a tweet directed at me (and, you’re right, it was polite as was this particular user’s response to my answer).

    Sorry it came off as rude and thoughtless. It was brief and to the point, but I wasn’t writing off the question. If I were, I wouldn’t have bothered answering at all.

    As for it being nonsensical — I’m not going to go into a debate here about a line I didn’t write. I will however provide a quote from my friends Elio & Linda at Westeros.org from their review of 208:

    (and, yes, they’re my friends and HUGE critics of our adaptation, for those of you who think I can’t take criticism).

    “Some might object to her insulting Theon as a “cunt”, as she notes elsewhere that she finds it a strange insult for men to throw at women when their sex is the only thing they care about… but this doesn’t mean that she can’t use it towards a man, knowing how men feel about it.”

    That was the general thinking behind my rude, thoughtless, and nonsensical tweet. Again, you can disagree with the reasoning — but that’s all I was trying to say. Obviously it didn’t land. I guess my Twitter skills were lacking, so it’s a good thing I’m not using Twitter anymore.

    And, as Ours Is The Fury stated, this was a long time coming… it was a few of the tweets that followed that made me finally deactivate the account.

    Thanks,

    B

  334. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    DB: Dan, I’m not trying to insult your knowledge, I’m simply denying it’s existance

    Existence.

    (Not generally a spelling-smack guy, but in a post regarding knowledge this was pretty funny.)

  335. Herr Fick
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman,

    Kudos, Mr Cogman!

    And good to know that criticism – even by so-called book purists ;) – was not the issue.

    Your episode was one of my favourites this year. I hope that you writing in seasons to come will be just as great as it has been in What is Dead May Never Die.

  336. userj
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Sorry, but assuming you’re a man (given your name), you don’t get to decide how offensive the C word is to women, no more than I (being white) get to decide how offensive the N word is to black people.

  337. PatD
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    No one was “harassing” bryan for D&Ds original use of the word.
    They were upset that he would write off the legit concerns of the first poster so easily and with such a shallow and nonsensical “reason”.

    Probably because he didn’t see it as a legit concern. I certainly don’t. I see it as just another example of obsessive/compulsive behavior in re: to literalism mistaken for criticism. Here’s a guy knee-deep in production for the upcoming season, and all its relative responsibilities and duties and deadlines, being asked to debate the use of one.word. among the show’s dialogue.

    I’d have given a flippant reply, too. If I’d taken the time to answer, at all.

    This might come as a shock to some, but after about the first half dozen posts about Yara’s use of the word “cunt,” I’ve just been scrolling past the rest of them.

    And here’s where the “purists” and I diverge. They say they understand the mega-differences in media, and then they proceed to make a mountain out of a mole hill about the use of one curse word. If they truly did understand that this is a different art form,which inherently mandates compromise and interpretation, they’d pick their battles more judiciously.

    That’s my main problem with the “purists.” They are so damn literal in their interpretations. It’s as though they are an historical engineering society for the preservation of the WORD. Everything must be linear and no straying allowed!

    Except that contradicts the very definition of art.

    We’ve been over this a hundred times. No one can take books like ASoFaI, which is told through the interior POV’s of alternating characters, and transfer them literally to a visual media. D&D simply cannot film inside actor’s heads. This means that right from the get-go compromises have to be made. In order for those compromises to be consistent with the source material, interpretative skills must be invoked. The final product you see on the screen can not, and never will be, the books that you’ve read. But they can be great TV when interpreted by those in synch with the source material.

    Therefore, constantly comparing the two isn’t just an exercise in futility, it’s a constant reminder that many people don’t, although they claim they do, understand we are dealing with two different art forms here.

    Does that mean I think all criticism of the show is unjustified? Of course not. But in order for any criticism to hold water, it has to be analysis of it as a television show inspired by the books.

    Following all this, how the fuck does it matter whether Yara uses the word “cunt,” or whether she doesn’t? There’s nothing that we as viewers have seen from Yara, so far, that makes this an inconsistency, or bad writing, for that matter. Nothing.

    I think Brian should get some kind of Medal of Job for making it this far without losing it on Twitter. I only hope he really does see that the eejits are the minority, and hopefully Twitter’s loss will be WiC.net’s gain.

  338. The Hawk
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Alan: I personally doubt that the writers are changing anything for the sake of changes.

    Do the changes make the story or characters better?You seem to think not.I think there are some cases where they do and some where they don’t.

    But I also think if your comparison is “is the story in the show better thanreading the book” that’s not a valid comparison point.

    Why not?I simply don’t think people understand the difficulties of adaptation to a different medium.Yes, the words are there, but the difficulties are immense.

    Budget is all encompassing.It’s not just battles; it’s characters, it’s days of shooting.It’s simplifying blocking and timing to get the shot in.Why don’t we have Weasel Soup, for example?I’m 99% sure it’s because of the cost of adding extra characters and the cost of time to explain what happened else at the castle during weasel soup.

    And budget isn’t just money.It’s 9 hours to show over 1,000 pages across hundreds of characters.

    Translation of a book is also incredibly difficult when the book has a tremendous amount of character development in a person’s thoughts.In a show, you need to translate those to words and actions — and while description is longer on a page than on a screen — words and actions take forever.Things need to become more obvious and yet more subtle, because no one says exactly what they mean!

    And don’t forget that no one can do this by themselves.There’s a little bit of D&D, Cogman, Taylor, Alan Taylor (who directed), each actor, each crewmember, the editor, etc. in every scene.Each person can change it a bit and you can’t control it all.

    And sometimes, you know, a scene is there and it doesn’t work.

    The level of difficulty is INCREDIBLY high for this show.Yes, some things are as good as the book.Some things have been better.Perhaps more things are worse.

    But it’s important to understand that they are often picking the best choice out of a bunch of things that even they may feel are ALL worse than reading the book.

    The idea that they sit around changing things just to change them is silly.Certain things don’t work on screen.The whole story won’t fit.They can’t pay for everything.

    So you make choices.

    ———–

    Lastly, I loved Bryan’s episode this year, and I love that he interacts with the fans.But the idea that D&D are bad writers is kind of silly.Bryan’s published works (as far as I know) consist of two eps of GOT — one very good, one decent in terms of show quality.

    D&D have their hand in any script — including some scenes that are in Bryan’s episode or the Pointy End last year that people love and still give credit to Martin for.Benioff, in particular, has a pretty good resume.Both have published novels.

    They wrote some of the best episodes of the show.They may not write all the words, but most of the structural choices (this happens, this happens) are their ideas and all of them are subject to their approval.

    Just because you don’t like some of the changes, doesn’t mean they are bad writers.

    case in point why communication in this medium is a waste of time and why Bryan (or anybody else thinking clearly) would rightly abandon twitter…thanks for the lecture about shit I already know…peace,

    The Hawk

  339. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    So it is a problem that Yara/asha used the word cunt?
    The n-word was also talked about…
    This must be some weird american thing again.

    It makes sense within the show? Please differe the show from real life?!

  340. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    oh-bb,

    good one!

  341. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Ed: No, it’s a fact.

    Have you done a scientific poll on the issue? I think not.

  342. The Hawk
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman:
    userj,

    Ok, let’s set something straight here.

    I wasn’t responding to a general tweet, it was a tweet directed at me (and, you’re right, it was polite as was this particular user’s response to my answer).

    Sorry it came off as rude and thoughtless.It was brief and to the point, but I wasn’t writing off the question.If I were, I wouldn’t have bothered answering at all.

    As for it being nonsensical — I’m not going to go into a debate here about a line I didn’t write.I will however provide a quote from my friends Elio & Linda at Westeros.org from their review of 208:

    (and, yes, they’re my friends and HUGE critics of our adaptation, for those of you who think I can’t take criticism).

    “Some might object to her insulting Theon as a “cunt”, as she notes elsewhere that she finds it a strange insult for men to throw at women when their sex is the only thing they care about… but this doesn’t mean that she can’t use it towards a man, knowing how men feel about it.”

    That was the general thinking behind my rude, thoughtless, and nonsensical tweet.Again, you can disagree with the reasoning — but that’s all I was trying to say.Obviously it didn’t land. I guess my Twitter skills were lacking, so it’s a good thing I’m not using Twitter anymore.

    And, as Ours Is The Fury stated, this was a long time coming… it was a few of the tweets that followed that made me finally deactivate the account.

    Thanks,

    B

    you guys should have seen this angst from the book readers coming…leave well enough alone and quit tweaking things about the characters that don’t need tweaking…there is no reason to have made Jaime a literal backstabber of Aerys in the TV show…only a coward would literally stab another human being in the back as HBO’s version has made Jaime do, and Jaime Lannister is anything but a coward…Kingslayer slit his king’s throat while looking him in the eyes and tells you quite truthfully exactly why he did it…then the writers have him go and kill his cousin?!?!? meh…these unnecessary changes for the sake of change are what stick in the craws of the book readers and make us go overboard even about changes that are necessary for translation from book to screen…

    the TV show has had Robb Stark betray his men, his bannermen, and the entire North just so he could dip his quill into a pot of hot ink…why couldn’t you give us the Crag, and him getting wounded, and the news of the death of his brothers, and the conspiring of a certain someone who orchestrated all of this from afar? It is more believable that he, being the son of the honorable Ned Stark, would only make such a decision while weak and full of grief…even if you can’t do it visually b/c of lack of budget or whatever you can establish it through dialogue and storytelling…

    if you think about it it’s very hard for the show to displease people who have never read the books to the level that the show can displease the book readers, as the former don’t know anything about the characters or the plot to know one way or the other if you’ve gotten it right or wrong…if you break faith with the book readers, however, the ones who are responsible for the author being on the best selling lists and who were the ones who, by word of mouth, spread the love of ASOIAF for 14 some years before HBO came along, you will lose your audience and you will lose your show b/c you will not survive w/o the viewership of the book fans…hopefully George can get this season back on track with his episode this Sunday night, b/c right now from a storytelling perspective it’s a train wrecking through one plot hole after another…

    I don’t think you are entirely or even largely responsible for that, Bryan, and as I said above I quite enjoyed your episodes both this season and last, but since you’re still apparently reading and responding here, and are a writer on the show, you are in position to communicate some of that to the powers above…

    peace,

    The Hawk

  343. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Along with recently forcing Pearson Moore to stop posting his essays here on WiC

    really? I mean i never read them but why? What did he do wrong? forgot the peach or did he wrote about how the lannisters & the stark are alike?

  344. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    anything to say about J. J. Abrams and his people?

  345. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk: you guys should have seen this angst from the book readers coming…leave well enough alone and quit tweaking things about the characters that don’t need tweaking…there is no reason to have made Jaime a literal backstabber of Aerys in the TV show…only a coward would literally stab another human being in the back as HBO’s version has made Jaime do, and Jaime Lannister is anything but a coward…Kingslayer slit his king’s throat while looking him in the eyes and tells you quite truthfully exactly why he did it…then the writers have him go and kill his cousin?!?!? meh…these unnecessary changes for the sake of change are what stick in the craws of the book readers and make us go overboard even about changes that are necessary for translation from book to screen…the TV show has had Robb Stark betray his men, his bannermen, and the entire North just so he could dip his quill into a pot of hot ink…why couldn’t you give us the Crag, and him getting wounded, and the news of the death of his brothers, and the conspiring of a certain someone who orchestrated all of this from afar? It is more believable that he, being the son of the honorable Ned Stark, would only make such a decision while weak and full of grief…even if you can’t do it visually b/c of lack of budget or whatever you can establish it through dialogue and storytelling…if you think about it it’s very hard for the show to displease people who have never read the books to the level that the show can displease the book readers, as the former don’t know anything about the characters or the plot to know one way or the other if you’ve gotten it right or wrong…if you break faith with the book readers, however, the ones who are responsible for the author being on the best selling lists and who were the ones who, by word of mouth, spread the love of ASOIAF for 14 some years before HBO came along, you will lose your audience and you will lose your show b/c you will not survive w/o the viewership of the book fans…hopefully George can get this season back on track with his episode this Sunday night, b/c right now from a storytelling perspective it’s a train wrecking through one plot hole after another…I don’t think you are entirely or even largely responsible for that, Bryan, and as I said above I quite enjoyed your episodes both this season and last, but since you’re still apparently reading and responding here, and are a writer on the show, you are in position to communicate some of that to the powers above…peace,The Hawk

    Didn’t you just snark a little ways above about somebody telling you shit you already know? Do you really think anything you just said is new to Cogman or the other showrunners in any way?

  346. Ed
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    (Yes, I’m a man). Mrs. H’gar, I don’t need a scientific poll to tell me the sun rises every day. Polls are HARDLY the baseline for factual consideration, either. :-)

    I can observe things with my own eyes and ears and make my own decisions.

    UserJ, I don’t need to be a woman or black to observe and make my own determinations. You may not agree with them – (shrug) somehow I’m sure I’ll sleep okay knowing that.

    I’m not saying the C-word isn’t offensive, but I’ve never seen a person (man OR woman) immediately resort to violence at the drop of a C-word in 46 years on the planet. I HAVE seen several instances of fists-to-face (AND straight up beatdowns) at the utterance of the N-word. Immediate and violent.

    THAT (in my book) tells me the N word is a lot more offensive. If you feel differently – ok. That’s cool, we can all have our own opinions. In MY world, it’s a fact though, concrete and irrefutable.

    I don’ t want to get into semantical discussions about the term “fact” that I used. If you want to argue that… well, go ahead. I’ll even use a different word if it makes your life easier. Not that big of a deal to me.

    userj:
    Ed,

    Sorry, but assuming you’re a man (given your name),you don’t get to decide how offensive the C word is to women, no more than I (being white) get to decide how offensive the N word is to black people.

  347. Zack
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    B Cogman: That was the general thinking behind my rude, thoughtless, and nonsensical tweet. Again, you can disagree with the reasoning — but that’s all I was trying to say.

    I don’t see why this debate should even continue past this point, honestly. Knowing this, the reply doesn’t even sound like unconscious sexism. It’s a reference to another review. Granted, the Twitter firestorm was probably inevitable because not everyone reads those reviews, and if you don’t know the context it can come off strangely.

    PatD: And here’s where the “purists” and I diverge. They say they understand the mega-differences in media, and then they proceed to make a mountain out of a mole hill about the use of one curse word.

    I know this comment can be more broadly applied, but I’m not sure it works for the current discussion here re: the use of the word ‘cunt’ and the Twitter conversations that followed. Check again: that original tweet was polite, and seemed to be making a molehill out of a molehill. It As did the review at Westeros, apparently. It doesn’t become a ‘mountain’ by the nature of the question merely being asked. It was the flippant nature of the reply that seemed to get people going.

  348. The Hawk
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    so you’re telling me the writers and lords of this show are knowingly engaging in storytelling full of plot holes and mischaracterizations that is turning off the base of fans whose interest in the series made their show possible…sweet…thanks for the update…

  349. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk,

    Seems like the ratings are doing just fine to me. I’m pretty sure the vast majority who post here and love the show would disagree with you about the writers turning off the fan base.

  350. Zack
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Shit. Can’t edit the previous post. But Bryan made a great point that boiled down to how ‘purists’ interpretations of the text can and does so often differ from that of other purists. Not to mention when the aforementioned fans grossly misremember a text they claim to be expert on. The main takeaway here is that people should give others the benefit of the doubt, and ask for clarification, before they let loose with possibly unwarranted outrage.

  351. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk: Steven Swanson, so you’re telling me the writers and lords of this show are knowingly engaging in storytelling full of plot holes and mischaracterizations that is turning off the base of fans whose interest in the series made their show possible…sweet…thanks for the update…

    No, I’m saying that they’re trying to do a massive show on a strict deadline, with many forces beyond their control, and a number of the “plot holes” either couldn’t be avoided due to logistical issues (budget, casting, generally unexpected events) or weren’t caught until it was too late. And I don’t know this for a fact or which is what, but my tendency is to give them the benefit of the doubt, knowing of their love for the material and seemingly sincere wish that they do it justice.

    And “mischaracterization” is a hard one to pin on them considering even strict ASOIAF literalists would disagree on the nature of characters and what they would do in certain situations. When you have a television series with multiple talented strong-willed people making it happen, some of whom that probably have less interest in strict fidelity than others, and all of whom have varying interpretations of the material, you’re going to have situations where you disagree with the characterization (and the people behind the show probably have them with each other).

    I’ve said this before and it’s worth repeating: Creating a show on a deadline with numerous individuals’ input is an entirely different beast than the near dictatorship of being an author with (in GRRM’s case) virtually unlimited time on your hands. Especially when the nature of those novels was specifically to be unfilmable, and largely takes place within its characters’ heads. I’m totally fine with criticism of the show, but it bugs me when that criticism doesn’t take into account the incredible complexity of the undertaking and how what they intend at the beginning might end up being something very different.

  352. Weirwood
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe that the War for Asha’s Cunt is still ongoing…..

  353. Weirwood
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    To any person who is offended by words (that are intentionally used as insults), I will quote Tyrion’s advice to the bastard Snow from book one:
    “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”

  354. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    At this point I somewhat tempted to just write a wall full of c-words, n-words & f-words(it is f*ck, isnt it?) and seenig as I am from Austria even a few j-words

    Still!

    The Seven Words
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM
    by George Carlin

    strangly there is no n-word, then again this is a US disscusion so I dont know.

  355. The Hawk
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    plot holes that “can’t be avoided” = bad storytelling no matter what medium you are working in…any other explanation is a cop out and an excuse for bad or sloppy writing…stop lecturing me on the assumption that I am not taking into account the “incredible complexity” of their undertaking…fact of the matter is if the writers would stop jacking with the story as it is they would simplify their task exponentially…George has already done the heavy lifting…follow in his wake and stop straying into the choppy waters that inevitably come about when you stray from the path you’ve been given…

    it’s all good though, ratings are “fine” as somebody else said above, though they haven’t moved much of a tick up or down since Ep 2 this season, a mark that the show has leveled out and isn’t attracting a whole lot of new viewers, or the new viewers they are attracting are simply making up the difference in viewers they are shedding…

    two of my brothers, like me, are huge, die-hard ASOIAF fans…one of them already calls GRRM a sell out for letting HBO do what they’ve done to his story, and the other one hasn’t watched an episode since Ep 4 this season…many of my friends who are fans of the books feel the same about the TV show, but since they don’t post here, Dan, you’re probably unaware of people like that who have quit the show…

  356. Weirwood
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz:
    Weirwood,

    At this point I somewhat tempted to just write a wall full of c-words, n-words & f-words(it is f*ck, isnt it?) and seenig as I am from Austria even a few j-words

    Still!

    The Seven Words
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM
    by George Carlin

    strangly there is no n-word, then again this is a US disscusion so I dont know.

    I think the verboten F word that people have alluded to is “faggot” (and as a gay man I am not offended by this word in and of itself- but I guess I have heard it so often that I am immune to it). And the N word is nigga (as in “They killed my Nigga Ned!”)- some folks here even wanted a t-shirt with this quote written on it, BTW!

  357. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    I know that n stand for nigga or is it nigger?
    as for the f word thx about that.

  358. Weirwood
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz:
    Weirwood,

    I know that n stand for nigga or is it nigger?
    as for the f word thx about that.

    Little from column A, a little from column B. Both mean the same thing but since Nigga is used by gangsta rappers it seems to be more palatable to American’s delicate sensibilities……

    To-Mate-To/To-Mat-Toe

  359. PatD
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Check again: that original tweet was polite, and seemed to be making a molehill out of a molehill. It As did the review at Westeros, apparently. It doesn’t become a ‘mountain’ by the nature of the question merely being asked. It was the flippant nature of the reply that seemed to get people going.

    I’m mostly referring to the ensuing discussion here. I understand Bryan’s initial reply. I didn’t see it as particularly controversial.

    Anyway, he’s clearly moved on, as should we.

  360. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    American’s delicate sensibilities

    true true.
    I remmeber that one time when the US went blind when we saw janet jackson tit.
    the rest of the world not so much…
    ;-)

  361. DH87
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk: plot holes that “can’t be avoided” = bad storytelling no matter what medium you are working in…any other explanation is a cop out and an excuse for bad or sloppy writing…stop lecturing me on the assumption that I am not taking into account the “incredible complexity” of their undertaking…fact of the matter is if the writers would stop jacking with the story as it is they would simplify their task exponentially…George has already done the heavy lifting…follow in his wake and stop straying into the choppy waters that inevitably come about when you stray from the path you’ve been given…

    I agree. The audience, especially the book lovers, want to love the show and are for the most part willing to accept the changes required by budget, time constraints, the novels’ structure, and all the other restrictions Bryan C. outlined in his post-episode post. But showrunners everywhere tend to underestimate the erosion of trust caused by what seems to the audience to be change for change’s sake, substituting sub-par dialogue for perfectly good dialogue from the novels, or coming up with a whore who’s an unsatisfactory version of Alayaya merged with (take your pick). It’s possible that D&D felt the need to communicate that the “new” whore or the “new” Jeyne is so different from the author’s versions that his names shouldn’t be utilized. Fine. But Ros is arguably a failure (we know why), and it’s naive to think that the audience doesn’t know it. (The jury is still out on the changes to Jeyne/ Talisa, Baelish, Cat, etc.)

    Such changes can be successful (in Selznick’s “Gone with the Wind,” two of Scarlett O’Hara’s three children disappeared without it affecting plot, character development, pace, or any other important aspect of the story; I’ve never read any criticism of the change).

    If it seems to be change for change’s sake, it most likely is change for change’s sake (or for the sake of TPTB, which we assume doesn’t apply in the case of HBO).

  362. Dan
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk,

    Just because you know a couple people who have dropped the show doesn’t mean the masses are following. I’m a huge fan of the books and have read them all multiple times. I love the show, everybody I know, whether they read the books or not, that watches the show loves it, so not everybody is following your brothers lead. If you read the posts on this site, the reviews, look at the ratings, etc. it is evident that the vast majority are happy. It doesn’t matter if the numbers climb throughout the year. A consistent nearly 4 million viewers an episode is very good. It’s beating the competition on Sundays, as well. It may well pick up a lot more viewers or next year when they have two seasons worth of BD available. It’s fine if you think they ruined it but that is the minority opinion. At least you’ll always have the books.

  363. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    This is why we can’t have nice things

  364. Shadowcat85
    Posted May 23, 2012 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    That quote by Valenti is spot on. And that’s sad. All I’m gonna say.

  365. death to lannisters
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Dick: The last episode did kinda suck. Good riddance.

    No wonder your name is Dick.

  366. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters: No wonder your name is Dick.

    At least his name’s not Cunt, this thread would be three times longer.

  367. death to lannisters
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: At least his name’s not Cunt, this thread would be three times longer.

    true they are more complicated.

  368. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    The Hawk,

    The reason we keep bringing up the incredible complexity of producing this show is that, despite your insistence, your posts indicate you really don’t understand what that means.

    How do they stop “jacking with the story” when so much of that story takes place within the minds of its characters? I mean when I reread the novels I read them cinematically, as if I’m watching a show. And the only way it makes any sense is to have nearly unlimited time and endless voiceovers that would be incredibly lame in practice.

    Are you aware that when they showed the original pilot for the series to non-reader audiences nobody had a damn clue who half the characters were or what was going on? It wasn’t until they “jacked with the story” when redoing the pilot that they came up with something that actually made sense as a standalone show. So it makes sense that they would continue that process in order to create something that will appeal to a relatively wide audience, most of whom have no intention of ever picking up the books. Is it perfect? Hell no, the show in my mind would kick the shit out of this one (voiceovers be damned). But it’s still a pretty damn good show, and I don’t mind them taking liberties as long as they keep the general narrative thrust intact.

  369. fuelpagan
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    I’m honestly surprised Mr. Cogman stayed on twitter as long as he did. It doesn’t matter how many positive comments you get, it’s the few nasty ones that consume your thoughts. It’s just human nature. While I did appreciate his involvement in the fan community, I think it is wise to eliminate the distraction. Focus on making a good show and not worry about how each change will upset some fans.

  370. Ed
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Great, great, great, great, post! This should be required reading for any hand-wringing whiners that complain about “changes” to the story. Way to go Steven Swanson.

    Steven Swanson:
    The Hawk,

    The reason we keep bringing up the incredible complexity of producing this show is that, despite your insistence, your posts indicate you really don’t understand what that means.

    How do they stop “jacking with the story” when so much of that story takes place within the minds of its characters? I mean when I reread the novels I read them cinematically, as if I’m watching a show. And the only way it makes any sense is to have nearly unlimited time and endless voiceovers that would be incredibly lame in practice.

    Are you aware that when they showed the original pilot for the series to non-reader audiences nobody had a damn clue who half the characters were or what was going on? It wasn’t until they “jacked with the story” when redoing the pilot that they came up with something that actually made sense as a standalone show. So it makes sense that they would continue that process in order to create something that will appeal to a relatively wide audience, most of whom have no intention of ever picking up the books. Is it perfect? Hell no, the show in my mind would kick the shit out of this one (voiceovers be damned). But it’s still a pretty damn good show, and I don’t mind them taking liberties as long as they keep the general narrative thrust intact.

  371. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Thanks Ed.

    And to The Hawk or whoever else is relevant, have you watched the season 1 episode 8 with commentary on the DVD? GRRM himself presides, and he gives a lot of insight into the adaptation process, and how things get tweaked, sometimes early on due to budget, sometimes due to additions by the writers or directors, sometimes by improvisation by the actors. I’ve learned a lot from the commentary in general on the first season, but I think George’s episode is the most informative yet.

    And I just happened to watch it by chance right after I wrote the above post last night, I was like “Ah, this is perfect.”

  372. The Hawk
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    no, it’s a bunch of bs, nothing more…same crap he’s spewed elsewhere in response to other complaints about the poor writing replete with plot holes we’ve gotten this season from the show…none of that is due or forced by the necessities of adaptation…

    basically it goes like this:

    “You know, it’s not very believable to me that Tywin Lannister would know that his new cupbearer is 1. from the North, and 2. highborn, and he would not force her to reveal who she really is. That’s a gaping plot hole and a poor job of building a believable character out of Tywin. It makes Tywin weak and ignorant.”

    jackoff response: “You don’t understand adaptation.”

  373. Darth Valyria
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk,

    So go reread the books and stop watching the show. There, I just solved all your problems.

  374. fuelpagan
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk: “You know, it’s not very believable to me that Tywin Lannister would know that his new cupbearer is 1. from the North, and 2. highborn, and he would not force her to reveal who she really is. That’s a gaping plot hole and a poor job of building a believable character out of Tywin. It makes Tywin weak and ignorant.”

    Of all the plot holes to use you pull this one as your shining example.
    1. Why would Tywin think a girl from a small holdfast would be valuable even if she was a noble?
    2. He hasn’t asked for her name so he obviously doesn’t care.
    3. Tywin has more important things to think about than tracking down the history of every kid he comes across.
    I don’t see the plot hole. I see you letting what you know influence what you think Tywin knows.

    A plot hole is Tyrion learning about the wildfire several episodes ago. Talking with Bronn how dangerous the substance was in the hands they have left to defend Kings Landing. Then at the last minute before the battle, plan to use it with no preparation at all.

  375. The Hawk
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    enjoy your Game of Cheese…

    peace

  376. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk: Ed, no, it’s a bunch of bs, nothing more…same crap he’s spewed elsewhere in response to other complaints about the poor writing replete with plot holes we’ve gotten this season from the show…none of that is due or forced by the necessities of adaptation…basically it goes like this:“You know, it’s not very believable to me that Tywin Lannister would know that his new cupbearer is 1. from the North, and 2. highborn, and he would not force her to reveal who she really is. That’s a gaping plot hole and a poor job of building a believable character out of Tywin. It makes Tywin weak and ignorant.”jackoff response: “You don’t understand adaptation.”

    Jesus H. Christ, you do realize that you could do the same picking apart of any number of scenes in the actual novels? Don’t you think Roose goddamn Bolton would recognize a northern accent on his little cupbearer and become mildly curious about where she’s from, especially after she made the effort to free the northmen in Harrenhal?

    You’re doing what I’ve seen a lot of people do, grading the show far more harshly than the novels because you’ve accepted their contents like a strict biblical literalist.

    And yes, I acknowledge that your interpretation of how Tywin should behave makes sense, but I by no means accept that it’s unfathomable that he would behave exactly as he does in the show. A little suspension of disbelief is necessary, for both the show and the books.

  377. Dan
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    The Hawk,

    We’ll miss you.

  378. DH87
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Ed: I’m not saying the C-word isn’t offensive, but I’ve never seen a person (man OR woman) immediately resort to violence at the drop of a C-word in 46 years on the planet. I HAVE seen several instances of fists-to-face (AND straight up beatdowns) at the utterance of the N-word. Immediate and violent.

    So you are basing the degree of insult on the violence of the reaction you personally have witnessed? Have you factored into your conclusions the likely outcome of a woman physically attacking a man over a female-directed insult, as opposed to one man attacking another man over a race-based insult?

    Was the Netherlands any less “insulted” by the Nazis than was Poland, because it managed to resist invasion for 4 days and Poland for 35? Were the vast majority of slaves not “insulted” at all because they didn’t attack their oppressors when they were demeaned verbally? Was—

    —oh, never mind. If you don’t understand the difference in the balance of power between men and women in the U.S. and most other societies, then this is a fruitless discussion, unless you are implying that the folks in your examples were either all men or all women.

  379. Ed
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Ding! Ding! Ding!! We have a winner!!! LOLLLL!!!!!

    DH87

    Was the Netherlands any less “insulted” by the Nazis than was Poland,

  380. Ed
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the heads up, I’ll check that out.

    Steven Swanson:
    Ed,

    Thanks Ed.

    And to The Hawk or whoever else is relevant, have you watched the season 1 episode 8 with commentary on the DVD? GRRM himself presides, and he gives a lot of insight into the adaptation process, and how things get tweaked, sometimes early on due to budget, sometimes due to additions by the writers or directors, sometimes by improvisation by the actors. I’ve learned a lot from the commentary in general on the first season, but I think George’s episode is the most informative yet.

    And I just happened to watch it by chance right after I wrote the above post last night, I was like “Ah, this is perfect.”

  381. DH87
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    Ding! Ding! Ding!!We have a winner!!!LOLLLL!!!!!

    Godwin’s Law = So the ’90s.

    That’s why I added in the slavery reference as a power-based analogy, but otherwise feel free to blame the History Channel on the tube in the background if you’d like.

  382. Weirwood
    Posted May 24, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    Thanks for the heads up, I’ll check that out.

    You can catch some of that here:

    http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/george-calls-the-banners/

  383. winterfell
    Posted May 25, 2012 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Coltaine777,

    my point was this:

    would you rather:

    A) have the show on TV, with the changes. but also 90% true to the novels.

    Or

    B) NOT HAVE THE SHOW ON TV AT ALL?

    if your answer is B, get off this site, cancel your HBO subscrition, and be done with it. NOTHING on film is going to come even remotely close to the brilliance of the Novels. Period. Those who complain about the (ultimately minor) changes obviously dont understand that these are two completely different storytelling mediums. Its not as if they killed off Joffrey and kept Ned alive to keep people happy and watching.

    I personally am a fan of both the books and the show, for different reasons altoghether. And I think that the Producers and Writers of this show have done a masterful job adapting it thus far, and if you asked GRRM himself, he’d more than likely say the same thing.

    And I think he’d also just “be happy the damn show is on TV in the first place!”

  384. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 25, 2012 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    winterfell: And I think he’d also just “be happy the damn show is on TV in the first place!”

    Well of course he’d say that, considering the fat wad of cash he’s making both through the show directly and all the book sales it’s inspiring. ;)

    I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago, but anybody looking for a more faithful rendition of the show should check out the comic (the first volume of which recently came out in graphic novel form). It’s exactly what I think most people complaining were hoping for from the show, a more condensed version with dialogue taken straight from the books and no added scenes (that I can recall).

    And it brings to mind something I’d thought of previously, the only way to REALLY do justice to the books would be to have a high quality animated version.

    Meanwhile I’ll continue to enjoy this one, warts and all.

  385. Ultrabaebs!
    Posted May 25, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    GRRM, like any humble gentleman writer, reminds us often how much he appreciates his fans and that without us, he’d be printing his own comics (or teaching at a university, or whatever)… He isn’t without his faults but let’s face it, the man is a very talented writer, and SOIAF is his greatest effort.

    Showrunners come and go. They’re producers, which means they get things done before anything else. The product won’t be be perfect of course, but the investment will get results–positive results. That means a lot of sacrifice on many steps of the process, yet the show has to be successful no matter what. Some things are prioritized, some things are laid aside, some new things are introduced. If fans could see this process it would be an uproar all the time. This is why if you want to get things done, you need people to deal with going forward despite all the loss. And then, you do not apologize for it.

    Now, this Cogman person, whose wife babysat Benioff’s kids, is an actor who can write English sentences as well as any actor. He’s made himself a scapegoat in a mini-drama which let’s face it, no one with a life cares about. Cogman should know by now that a lot of people who watch the show “know better for the show”. More people than they realize, because their opinions are just annoying to hear. Why argue against fans who hate the show??? Just ignore them so that they will learn that if they mean it, they should give it up.

    I personally don’t watch the show anymore, and I will spare you my old criticisms because frankly, they are almost as boring as the show itself. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. I suggest to Cogman that he counts his lucky stars, gathers whatever dignity he has and stops acting like… I don’t know… the valiant defender of “JUST A SHOW”.

  386. San
    Posted June 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Well the nutters did it again, the internet gives new meaning to the term silent majority. So who can blame bryan for disengaging, he doesn’t need this s$*t. Twitter is problematic for this type of interaction cause it allows any “idiot” with a keyboard to voice “his very important opinion”, messageboards and the like are much better suited to see what the fan base as a whole wants, would like to know etc.

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