Episode seventeen is in the books. What did you think? My full recap and reactions is below. Read it, after the break, then share your thoughts in the comments!
Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Clash of Kings. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ACoK yet, our non-book-reader recap will be up later. Thanks!
Summary
Where to start? Let’s begin beyond the Wall, where Ygritte is still Jon’s prisoner. Apparently Jon enjoyed their spooning session quite a bit. Ygritte taunts him mercilessly about it as they continue to hunt for Qhorin and his men. But before they can find them, Ygritte gets away and leads Jon right into a band of wildlings.
At Harrenhal, Tywin is killing soldiers, trying to find the assassin that is on the loose. Gregor suggests it may be someone from the Brotherhood without Banners, who has infiltrated the camp. Tywin is furious that the Brotherhood is still out there, causing trouble. He orders Clegane to burn and pillage in an attempt to suss out the location of the Brotherhood. Arya and Tywin then talk about Harrenhal, and the tale of Harren the Black. Arya knows the story but is more interested in the Targaryen sisters who helped Aegon burn the castle down. Before dismissing her, Tywin reveals that he knows that Arya is not a commoner.
In King’s Landing, Sansa thanks Sandor for rescuing her. Sandor says “you’re welcome” in his own special way. Later, Sansa has her first period and freaks out because it means she can now bear the king’s children. Shae tries to help her hide the evidence, even going so far as to threaten another handmaiden. But it’s all in vain as the Hound walks in. Later, Cersei attempts to console Sansa and gives her some guidance about what it takes to be a queen and a wife and a mother. That night, Tyrion and Cersei share a moment as they realize Joffrey is out of control and with Stannis coming for them, protecting the kingdom falls on them.
Across the Narrow Sea, Dany is distraught over her dragons being stolen and is blaming Xaro. Xaro says he has called a meeting of the Thirteen and suspects it was one of them that was responsible. Jorah returns and Dany talks with him about trust. Jorah assures her that she can trust him, so she orders him to find her dragons. Jorah goes to Quaithe, as she seems to know things. Quaithe tells Jorah that the ones who have the dragons is with Dany. Dany who is at the meeting of the Thirteen. There, Pyat Pree reveals he has the dragons. And Xaro is in league with him. They’re making a power play to install Xaro as King of Qarth. Pree’s doubles assassinate the remaining members of the Thirteen. One of the Pyat Pree’s then tells Dany to come to the House of the Undying if she wants her dragons back. Jorah runs in and stabs the Pree in the back and he dissipates. Another Pyat Pree advances on them, again urging Dany to come to the House of the Undying. Dany, Jorah and Kovarro high-tail it out of there.
At Robb Stark’s camp, Alton has returned with the response from Cersei to his terms. Robb orders Alton to be put in with Jaime until a new pen can be built for him. Robb then talks to Talisa, who needs more medical supplies, so Robb tells her to come with him to the Crag. Later, Alton and Jaime talk about their old squiring days. Then Jaime gets an idea for how he can escape. He asks Alton for his help, all he needs is his life. He kills Alton and the guard enters to investigate. Jaime kills him too, takes his keys and unchains himself. He must not have gotten far though, as the next morning he is being dragged back into camp. Catelyn has to keep Lord Karstark, whose son was guarding Jaime that night and was killed by the Kingslayer, from killing Jaime in revenge. That night, Catelyn goes to confront Jaime. Jaime taunts her about Ned’s bastard. Catelyn asks Brienne for her sword.
In Winterfell, Theon has discovered that Bran and Rickon have escaped. He hunts them down with hounds and Maester Luwin is dragged along. We see Bran, Rickon, Hodor and Osha walking in the countryside, they come upon the farm that the two orphan boys were sent to. Osha says they can’t run forever, eventually they will be tracked down. Later, Theon and crew arrive at the same farm, where Dagmer finds some walnut shells. He tells Theon to send Luwin away. Back at Winterfell, Theon has gathered the servants of Winterfell in the courtyard, including Maester Luwin. He then shows them what he does to those who defy him and reveals the tarred corpses of two small children. Maester Luwin cries out in anguish. Theon looks guilty. Fade to black.
What I Liked
Qarthian Coup – I thought this was a nice twist and, as a book reader, one that really surprised me. It makes sense that there would be some power plays within the Thirteen and this was a bold move by Xaro and Pyat Pree. Plus the whole scene with all the Pyat Prees slitting the throats of the rest of the Thirteen was creepy and cool. I’m not entirely sure why they needed to steal Dany’s dragons to pull this off, but maybe it will become clear on a rewatch or in a later episode. Anyway, I thought it was a cool twist and it made me say “Daaammn!” in a good way.
“You Know Nothing, Jon Snow.” – A classic line from the book that everyone was waiting to hear and Rose Leslie nailed it.
The Brotherhood – I like that they are establishing the Brotherhood without Banners. Makes me certain we should get some good scenes with them in later seasons.
This cast is amazing – There were a bunch of scenes tonight of just two people talking, but they were so compelling and dramatic because of the acting. Tywin and Arya. Cersei and Tyrion. Alton and Jaime. These scenes may not have looked like much on paper, but they were amazing to watch on screen, thanks to stellar acting by Charles Dance, Maisie Williams, Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage, Karl Davies and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.
That ending – So, they went there. I remember people wondering if David & Dan would be so cruel as to make all the new viewers think that Bran and Rickon were actually dead. Although there were clues that those two corpses aren’t the Stark boys, I’m sure many viewers will be convinced that they are. The tweet post should be interesting this week. I’m interest in We Do Not Sow’s take, as well. Let’s try not to ruin it for people, okay?
What I Didn’t Like
Jaime the Kinslayer – Jaime really went to the dark side in this one. Not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I can buy that a starving, desperate, imprisoned Jaime would go to great lengths to escape; but one of the most compelling parts of Jaime’s character is that despite doing some pretty horrible things, he does have a conscience. I think kinslaying may be too much, even for him. But damn, did Coster-Waldau sell it.
What did everyone else think? Leave your thoughts in the comments and don’t forget to rate the episode in our poll, at the bottom of this page.
666 Comments
Now you can be spoilery with the deviations from the book
aceQuote Reply
Oh my lord that ending.
dmfQuote Reply
WTF JUST HAPPEN
HarryQuote Reply
Oohh, Maester Luwin’s cry at the end brought me to tears!
Arlene LozanoQuote Reply
I’m normally not one to complain about changes from the book, but the changes to the Jon storyline seem completely unnecessary. They have all of the necessary characters cast, why change it that much?
DerpstradamusQuote Reply
SO PUMPED FOR RATTLESHIRT
dmfQuote Reply
Good stuff. I liked the changes…and I love Ygritte. She’s fantastic beyond belief.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
Bloody hell, I didn’t think they were going to go there by showing the boys, but wow…they did. Gave me chills.
Besides that, did love that little Ygritte line “did you pull a knife on me during the night?” :)
AziraphaleQuote Reply
…
?!
That’s pretty much all I can do in terms of a reaction right now.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
House SnowQuote Reply
Initial thoughts:
I thought this was a good episode but a pretty noticeable step down from last week except for the last few minutes.
I still like Arya/Tywin although I think she’s getting a bit too bold. I can deal with it. I like that they’re adding more drama to the Qarth storyline, and I’m interested to see where it goes. The “Sword” and bodies cliffhangers were well done and a good choice, and I liked Alton/Jaime’s conversation. I also think Rose Leslie is fantastic as Ygritte.
I didn’t like the attempted escape though, on a couple of fronts. First, why would Jaime have to kill Alton to get the guard’s attention (are chains just that crude?), I just sort of assume he could have knocked him around rather than brutally kill him. I also thought it was silly to have one of Lord Karstark’s sons serving as a common guard but meh.
Interested to see where things go with Jon, the preview (and last scene here) suggest possible large deviations from the book.
LordStarkingtonQuote Reply
It’s another episode I think I’m gonna have to rewatch.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Poor boys…a lot goin’ on this episode! Kingslayer, you are such a dickweed. Westeros is hopping’ tonight! And Qarth too…WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS!!!!! Guess next week is the House of the Undying then, can’t say I will miss the Spice King.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
The rapport between Arya and Tywin is epic.
Snow knows nothing.
NCW is back.
Dany’s story crawls like it does in the books.
I loved it.
Mike ChairQuote Reply
BEST EPISODE OF THE SERIES! HELL YESSSSS!
james yarQuote Reply
You know nothing jon snow
*cracks big ol’ smile.*
Jon ConningtonQuote Reply
Who were those boys?
HarryQuote Reply
Was that the crippled Stark boy that they burned and hung?
EmoQuote Reply
What’s this nonsense about only 2 episodes left? 8,9, 10. That’s three. Right?
Craig LeskaQuote Reply
Craig Leska,
Yeah, I legitimately had a fight with my mom about this. She doesn’t think an HBO promo would lie. What’s with that?
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Very cool season 2 I have enjoyed the books now I can enjoy the show with suspense with all the new twists well done D&D keep up the good work I have no idea what they have up their sleves
chrisQuote Reply
the ending reminded me of the way maximus’ family was murdered like that in gladiator
ShannonQuote Reply
Assuming it’s just a promo mistake. That seems far more likely than them axing an episode and keeping it covered up for weeks…even months.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
Honestly, I don’t see what the big fuss about Jaimie was. He behaved exactly like Jaimie in that episode. So he killed someone innocent, big deal. I thought it fit fine in the context of how he behaves.
House SnowQuote Reply
LordStarkington,
He did have an escape attempt in the books, and he did kill some dudes, but not Lord Karstark’s son (that happened in a battle).
It’s TrueQuote Reply
If Rattleshirt has captured Halfhand as well we’re essentially still on track for the most part with Jon’s line. Things may get (there) a bit differently, but not by all that much.
ClobQuote Reply
5/5!
Gotta rematch to catch all the details but so man scenes that had me pumped up.
Cat, Jaime, ygrette…wow a lot of powerful scenes
WhereTheWildRickonsRQuote Reply
I think its pretty self evident.
House SnowQuote Reply
Not to mention releasing a synopsis for a non-existent episode. They probably intended the “2 more episodes” to be part of the promo next week.
LordStarkingtonQuote Reply
Right, but they couldn’t reference a battle that took place in the past and have viewers connect to it. It made sense from a TV standpoint to make the guard Karstark’s son (even if it makes no sense from another standpoint). Worked for me given the circumstances.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
It’s True,
I thought he did kill a Karstark in his escape attempt? Because Lord Karstark has a pretty emotional reaction all of a sudden and that escape attempts comes way after Jaime’s initial capture and the battle
dmfQuote Reply
LordStarkington,
Ok
But was the the Stark boy that they killed? I’m in shock!!!!
EmoQuote Reply
I got chills when “You know nothing, Jon Snow” was said.
!!!
Jon RiversQuote Reply
besides jon’s warging into ghost and getting attacked by whats his name as his eagle.
w/e i guess…
Jon ConningtonQuote Reply
Oh, I know, that’s part of why I didn’t like the scene in the episode. I wasn’t *too* bothered by it but I think the way it happened in the books would have been more dramatic and come across as a little less contrived/cliche. I dunno, just my two cents.
LordStarkingtonQuote Reply
I agree. I think it gets there just via a different path. I love me some Jon and Ygritte, so the more of them the merrier.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
Next episode will shed much more light on it.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
I liked this episode.
Even with all the changes from the book I still think it was good.
Jon Snow Vs Ygritte was awesome! I loved those scenes! Those were the best of this episode because it was so close to the books… LOVED it!
Dany’s storyline change was cool. It makes sense and I don’t mind that change at all.
The only thing that bothered me was I was waiting for a cool kickass scene with nik and nothing happened. This was Nik’s favorite scene? him bashing a cousin to death after a very sinister dialog? I mean it was cool but I was waiting for an awesome escape scene with him using his sword.
Other then that I really liked this episode but I am holding off critiquing it until after i watch the second airing…
On a side note. Did anyone notice the preview of what is ahead and HBO saying “2 episodes left” there is 3 episodes left right?
ArthurQuote Reply
What’s with the “Only Two Episodes Left”?
8, 9, 10.
Isn’t that three?? WTF?
PatDQuote Reply
Promo mistake. Don’t worry about it.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
The good:
1. Conversation between Arya and Tywin, including when she spoke too freely and her warned her I’m actually going to miss these scenes
2. Sansa’s attempt to thank Sandor. Looks like they’re making up for the lack of San-San scenes in season 1.
3. Sansa’s flowering. Sophie has been doing stellar work this season. The fear in her eyes when she find out and seeing her hysterically trying to hide it was painful to watch. I like the pairing of Shae with Sansa. I even enjoyed Cersei’s scene where she gives Sansa advice about loving your children no matter how you feel about the king.
4. Tyrion and Cersei scene
5. Jaime scenes, especially talking about his time serving Aegon. As soon as the Lannister boy started inching towards Jaime, I foresaw this ending badly for him. Poor kid. I also enjoyed seeing the start of Jaime’s banter with Brienne
6. You know nothing, Jon Snow
The Bad:
1. The Dany stuff was boring and frustrating. I was hoping to see House of the Undying this episode. The political stuff had me confused.
2. Final scene I don’t think they shouldn’t have emphasized the orphan boys so strongly in the earlier scenes…no way anyone is going to believe the corpses are Bran and Rickon, though Theon did look pretty guilty
DreamlifeQuote Reply
Brandon Stark,
I just dont buy that the wildings could catch Qhorin.
dmfQuote Reply
Alot of changes. I loved the books and devoured every one. I can understand condensing so things but to change actual story lines… By the time they get to book 5, if they do, the series will be I recognizable from the books.
DevaQuote Reply
Why was Robb going to the crag? something about surrendering? who was surrendering exactly? and did you notice his love interest (forgot her name!) was all like “Oh i dont think i should go to the Crag”. I think we now now her true identify! ugh
But can Jon still kill the Halfhand? Perhaps he is already captured?
Jack SlapQuote Reply
Derpstradamus,
They had to change Jon’s storyline a little with Ygritte to allow them to have the dialog. So the viewer can be clued in on the foundation and backround story. So he needed some “alone time” with Ygritte for this to happen.
It made perfect sense to me.
ArthurQuote Reply
Alas, poor Bran & Rickon, we knew ye well.
NewJeffCTQuote Reply
Might not be a bad thing. Book 5 is a meandering mess compared to the awesomeness of SoS.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
Oh god, with Jaime’s murder of Alton, and the murder of the boys being Theon’s doing and not Reek’s, I don’t know if I can forgive them.
F*ck Yeah YorenQuote Reply
He went to accept their surrender. I assume that means he had men there laying siege.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
I was hoping for a more faithful adaptation this season than what they have given us.
TCQuote Reply
Dreamlife,
I do agree that the Dany story was kinda blah..but used that time to grab snacks
WhereTheWildRickonsRQuote Reply
Yeah I saw that too and got scared!!! There are 3 episodes left right???
ArthurQuote Reply
Derpstradamus,
I like the changes. It gives a more convincing arguement for why Jon does what he does. In the book, his reasoning didn’t ring all that true.
SillyMammoQuote Reply
Ooh, nice catch on the Crag. Except unlike you, I like the possibility of Talissa being Jojen/Meera because this means yes the Reeds are in the story and yes Oona will stick around in future seasons
DreamlifeQuote Reply
I loved everything, especially Jaime and Jon/ Ygritte.
MichelleQuote Reply
Except that is exactly what happens.
ScholesyQuote Reply
michelleQuote Reply
Book four AND five are messes!
B
EdQuote Reply
Well..if they only have a limit of 10 episodes, they can cut out the bad stuff
WhereTheWildRickonsRQuote Reply
Craig Leska,
I believe the “Battle of Blackwater” episode is a two-hour episode. So yes, two episodes left, but three hours.
JosephQuote Reply
While I am with you on your sentiment, I think this might be something they can strip and insert at whatever point they like, and still keep the plot points the same. I don’t recall the exact sequence of events, but I’m wondering if the writers were able to give more screen time to Ygritte this way?
David the GreyQuote Reply
My favorite storyline is kinda shot….i think……trying not to complain, really trying…but what’s up with the direction Jon’s story is taking? No more Qhorin Halfhand perhaps? I did love Jon and Ygritts’s scenes together, both actors are doing a fantastic job, but I think Jon is being portrayed as a puss…….I guess I should ignore the books and just watch the show for what it is…..sigh…..
Positive note- Tywin and Arya are fantastic! I could listen to them banter all day long! I actually found myself tolerating Shae this episode -and Jamie! Wow, he certainly uses words as dangerously as his sword…
I don’t believe the two burned bodied were really the Stark boys…… Looking forward to next Sunday! Again!
WinnieQuote Reply
Judging by some of these comments, WiC might have to put up a curtain call for Bran, or else risk ruining the surprise.
Varamyr FourskinsQuote Reply
WhereTheWildRickonsR,
I like Dany’s storyline chage. It makes more sense then the books IMO. And trust me I am not a D&D fanboy I think their use of Ros sucks!!!
With Dany I like the change.
The change is basically this in a nutshell;
Someone of power wants to use Dany’s dragons to gain more power. From what is being said in this episode. The dragons will die without Dany so this person of power wants the dragons but also needs to keep Dany alive and well and with them or they would die. Now Dany needs to find a way out of this mess.
That makes sense right? When I was reading the books the whole time I was thinking “Why doesn’t someone just kill Dany and take her dragons?” It should have happened. So this TV change is for the better and more realistic. Only thing is they had to make the dragons totally dependant on Dany so it would make sense to still keep her alive.
I really like it…
ArthurQuote Reply
Best episode of the season, easily one of the best of the series so far. FANTASTIC!
TheBullQuote Reply
michelle,
Agreed!
WinnieQuote Reply
I liked it, changes and all.
That was an amazing shot of Harrenhall from Tywin’s window. And another great interaction between Tywin and Arya. The Mountain got some lines! And he didn’t come across like a giant who can’t act. I’m fine with the new Mountain. And what do we call exposition which takes place while the cup-bearer gobbles up some mutton while the great lord does some backstory on Harrenhall? Eatposition? Muttonposition? A man wants to know.
Rickon had multiple lines! He has darn strong hands to crack a walnut like that too. Yay, Art Parkinson!
I think of the two major Jaime scenes, it was the second one which NCW liked. The one in which he talks about vows. Nicely done there.
Tyrion and Cersei. Powerful scene. At the end of that scene, two wonderful actors communicating without speaking. Amazing work by Dinklage and Headey there.
No Joffrey this time around, but plenty of Sansa. And the Hound and Sansa. Twitter probably had a San/San nerdgasm on the first and another one the second. Except for the mysterious Shae helping, the “flowering” scene was nicely done. Still on the fence about Shae. I wonder where they’re going with this interaction.
Theon, as Ser Rodrik said so well last week, is truly lost now. You could see him losing himself to the dark side this episode. He’s turning into quite the little rhymer soon enough.
Ygritte! Great dialogue. I’ll bet Twitter crashed FaBio’s computer again at the long-awaited phrase. Sad that they cut out some bits of Qhorin’s stuff. Hoping they’ve just moved it around a bit and it still happens somewhat as written; but I’m quite happy with Rose Leslie and Kit Harrington together in these scenes. Poor Jon, he really does know nothing and is in way over his head with Ygritte.
Nice scene with Jorah and Quaithe. Interesting stuff, probably sent those looking for absolute canon screaming for the hills.
King of Qarth? Well that one certainly surprised me. But where the hell is Doreah? And I cheered when Jorah took out Pyat Pree and then frowned and yelled “Damnit!” when he didn’t. Nasty, screep warlock. But I’ll bet you could kill him by feeding him a quarter-pounder with cheese (or is that a Cheese Royale in Qarth?).
Going to be interesting next week, and we still need a buildup to the Blackwater on top of everything else! Whew. I’m tired out just thinking about it.
LangkardQuote Reply
I am loving Brienne more with each episode. I was worried about Gwendolyn Christie at first casting, but she is rocking this part. Next season will be awesome. I just wish they had had Cat swing the sword up before they cut away in the Jaime scene. Also missed her kicking over the slops bucket at him per the book. His scene with her was right on the money though.
Poor Alton. That guy did a bang up job in a small role – I was feeling bad for him being one of the Lannisport Lannisters, so wanting to be like Jaime, and then…ugh! I have to say, they are really painting Jaime blackheartedly, but as a major Jaime fan, I don’t mind this too much. My only qualm was that I don’t see him taking out a relative, even though he had no love lost for his Frey cousin in the books, this was a lot more villainous. I just hope the writers can really score on his changes in Season 3 without it seeming totally unbelievable. Really looking forward to him and Brienne.
Again, love Maester Luwin. He has so brought that character alive. I liked how Theon stumbled a bit after trying to beat up the much bigger guard in the opening scene – Theon is just a born loser, trying so hard to please the wrong people. Alfie Allen has done a great interpretation of this part, and made Theon much more multidimensional, I think.
I wish we had seen the miller’s boys. I have to say that this is one instance where I DID miss Jojen Reed. The scene in the book where Jojen tells Bran he dreamed of a man cutting his face off gave me serious chills. I think the burned bodies is going to be way too obvious to the non-reading audience that it is not Bran and Rickon.
Not sure about the Dany storyline. I liked the creepy Pyat Pree multiplying deal, and him in cahoots with Xaro. I am just hoping that the house of the Undying retains some of the prophecies and is not just dragons turning on their captors. Are we ever going to see what happened to Doreah? Or the initial Irri murder scene? Or has that scene gone the way of Ned Stark’s remembrance of Brandon in the throneroom?
I’m liked Jon’s reactions in his scenes with the wildling – and she delivered the “You know nothing, Jon Snow” wonderfully.
Did NOT like the Tyrion / Cersei scene. They are making Cersei way too weak this early on. I didn’t like her confiding in Tyrion about Jaime. Or her moaning about Joff.
Interesting San/San scene – he was meaner than I expected, but I am hoping that they will have that wonderful last scene together before he flees KL.
And did anyone notice the look exchanged between Roose and Jeyne Westerling as he was leaving Robb’s tent and she was going in? Are they in cahoots or what? I wonder how they are going to play Jeyne’s alias – that she ran away from home, and that’s why she did not want to go back to the Crag? That she didn’t want him to know she was a Lannister bannerwoman?
Love the Arya / Tywin scenes, but I think she was too off guard in this one…til she covered at the end. And how are they going to make Tywin into the cold hearted bastard he is at the end re. the events leading to his demise, when they’ve given him this almost grandfatherly way with Arya? I hope that D and D can pull it off!
Overall good episode, though I was not happy about the burned boys at the end. Will be interested in seeing what the critics / viewers think…
persephone88Quote Reply
So, I’ll pose the question, because it seems to match with the direction of the series:
Is Game of Thrones actually better when it deviates from the book but keeps hitting the ‘book milestones’? I agree, it’s deviated fairly significantly… pieces I was hoping to see how D&D would handle (no discussion with the half-hand, and WTF was that in Qarth). However, I think they’ve pulled off genius! They’ve taken a story we know, love, cherish… and made it better only through making US (bookreaders) wonder. They’ve made US, in a way, stop seeing the books alone and start watching the show, as something on it’s own.
Personally, I think they’ve brought new life to the series. I’ve found that the episodes that have purely followed the book (or close to it) we’re episodes I’ve liked, but not truly embraced. The story in my mind is still better.
However, the new story, the one with some changes, some different motivations, has me rapt. I’m actually much more intrigued. I think it’s actually far better than getting a visual regurgitation of the book.
Now i feel dirty…
Dany’s KnickersQuote Reply
Deva,
“By the time they get to book 5, if they do, the series will be I recognizable from the books.”
Good, hopefully they can manage to keep the story entertaining.
JamesLQuote Reply
No, there’s three episodes: “The Prince of Winterfell”, “Blackwater,” and “Valar Morghulis.” I’m betting on a promo mistake.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Scholesy,
Haha! Man, I’ve been seeing more and more people calling the show out for changes that aren’t actually changes at all, so this is hilarious to me. My guess is quite a few newbies read through the series fairly quickly, or some of us long-time fans are starting to get so old that we’re becoming senile waiting on this series to conclude. Either way, funny stuff.
Pastor_of_MuppetsQuote Reply
I never saw that massacre of the 13 coming. I love being blindsided and thought it made for great TV.
Lots of very quotable lines in this episode:
“You know nothing, Jon Snow.” (Great delivery, too.)
“Is that a woman?”
“You put a crown on a dog.”
“M’lord, not My Lord.”
I’m totally loving the Jon/Ygritte treatment. I have no fears that Halfhand’s great moment will be shortchanged.
That was a terrific scene between Tyrion and Cersei. His body language… when she was crying… like trying to comfort a viper. Great stuff.
I think we saw some foreshadowing in that scene between Tywin and Arya.
My only complaint about this episode (and, really, the scene is not over, so maybe it’ll still happen), is that I wanted to hear Jaime tell Cat about the scene in the throne room with Ned’s father and brother before he killed the king. I though that part in the book was really well written.
All in all, very entertaining episode.
Theon’s misunderstoodness has officially met its expiration date with me.
PatDQuote Reply
SillyMammo,
My biggest problem is that it seems they skipped the part where Jon and Qhorin find Mance’s camp, Jon gets his scar, and then the ensuing chase sequence.
DerpstradamusQuote Reply
I LOVED ALL THE BOOKS I DIDN’T THINK THEY WERE A MESS
michelleQuote Reply
The Alton/Jaime scene was one, big, fat metaphor for this fandom.
I’m shooting a virtual side-eye at NCW.
PatDQuote Reply
no man is more cursed than the kinslayer. jaime would NEVER kill a member of his own family in that way.
SolarQuote Reply
The Stark boys didn’t die. They would not have handled it that way.
Eric FitchQuote Reply
Dany’s Knickers,
I agree wholeheartedly. I started my GOT series life as a diehard purist and now I’m enjoying things immensely.
LangkardQuote Reply
I’m extremely disgruntled about how the show implied Sandor told Cersei about Sansa’s menstruation.
sockslolQuote Reply
My initial thoughts:
– I loved Ygritte! She has all the best lines!
– Happy to have Jaime back! Loved his scene with Cat & Brienne.
– Sansa & The Hound, Sansa’s flowering, and Sansa’s talk with Cersei – all excellent!!! Actually this was an awesome Sansa episode, my most favorite yet for her.
– I was wondering why the emphasis on Rickon’s walnuts, but by the end of the ep, I figured it out.
– I also liked the Jorah & Quaithe scene, particularly the look on Jorah’s face when betrayal was mentioned.
David the GreyQuote Reply
Eric Fitch,
Like putting Ned Stark’s undignified, fly-ridden head up on a spike for Sansa to see? Hmm. ;)
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
I thought the episode was actually kind of slow and lacked some real action. A bit too much of just people talking and exposing. There was no point where I felt that I just have to watch that scene over and over again.
Ingemar SvenssonQuote Reply
Battle of Blackwater will be episode 9 of this season and will take up around 16 min of the episode..
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwater_(episode)
paulQuote Reply
WhereTheWildRickonsR,
true that
Mrs. WunQuote Reply
Whatshisface asked Theon to send Luwin away. That tells us something.
Eric FitchQuote Reply
IIRC that is a misquote.
DerpstradamusQuote Reply
The things you do for love………. Jaime Lannister :(
UNONUTINGJONSNOWQuote Reply
Not sure why people don’t understand you can get from A to C with a different B than in the books. They are just giving lines/scenes/duties to a smaller pool of characters, speeding things up, dealing with the shoddy memory of tv viewers, but they have the same final destinations in mind. It sucks when it is your favorite minor character or scene that gets chopped, but they have the key moments GRRM laid out in mind and will hit on them. Have a little faith. They aren’t stupid.
cranscapeQuote Reply
Agreed. Maybe I should have clarified. I liked the last few moments of her story. I just kinda tuned off the parts when she’s proclaiming mother of dragons blah blah blah. She is a great actress but theyre not giving her much to work with..until the ending. Wow
WhereTheWildRickonsRQuote Reply
Solar,
Yeah, agreed. Jaime never seemed like the type to me who would kill even a useless, distant member of his family. That kid was 100% innocent on top of it, and did exactly nothing — unlike Bran, who Jaime could have at least said “well, he saw me committing a moral/religious wrong.” I guess Jaime never came off to me as a totally coldblooded asshole, even in his worst moments (i.e. throwing Bran off the tower).
I’m really not sure about that change. It’s not ruining the episode for me, but… I don’t know, maybe someone can convince me otherwise.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Now the Jon story line w/ the wildlings feels contrived, where it didn’t seem that way in the book. That disappoints me a bit… Dany’s new story line could be interesting though.
I’m enjoying the Tywin & Arya scenes, but he’s gonna catch on girl. I wonder if Tywin will be her 3rd death & that will be the surprise death brought forward from the 3rd book.
LundyQuote Reply
There wasn’t nearly so much menstrual blood described in the books. Damn them for these changes!
Eric FitchQuote Reply
where did u hear that?
Jack SlapQuote Reply
That sure sounds like the book to me! : )
Mike From BraavosQuote Reply
LordStarkington,
MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS
Well, let’s just assume that they also captured Qhorin–they can still threaten to kill both, Qhorin can tell Jon to fight him to “prove” he is breaking his vows, and the plot can continue from there just the same way it was.
BaramosQuote Reply
I pretty much love this episode, but do have a couple of reservations.
The Jaime scenes were just awesome! The look on his face when Alton said he would remember the day he squired for Jaime till the day he died. It was the same look of regret when he shoved Bran out the window. Just perfect. The moral of the story is don’t talk to Jaime about the good old days, you end up dead. Robert, Jory and now Alton.
Dance and Maise were great again. Wonderful scene.
Enjoyed the Qarth scenes. I told you guys last week that Ducksauce was in on the dragon theft. I’m finding the show more interesting than the book. Other than the house of the undying, the Dany storyline in the book bored me in ACoK.
I liked Jon’s storyline, but if I don’t see the Halfhand asking if Jon’s sword is sharp, I will be disappointed. So having reservations, but I think it will be fine.
No doubts now that Talisa is a fake name and she really is Jeyne, they just changed how they meet to give them more time together.
fuelpaganQuote Reply
At the end of the show it said there are only 2 episodes left. It should be 3, right???
LundyQuote Reply
paul,
Actually, the 16 minutes was a misquote from a mistranslation. It is probably going to take up most of that episode.
I read the “two episodes left” as there being two episodes left in the “real” season, since much like last season where Episode 9 was the climax and Episode 10 was used as a denoument and set up for the next season, the same is being done this year, where Episode 9 brings all the stories this season to their climax, and Episode 10 wraps things up and sets up next year for us.
BaramosQuote Reply
what? reeds? no no i meant she is actually jeyne westerling!
Jack SlapQuote Reply
House Snow,
In the books, it’s said to an extent that the worst type of person is a “KINslayer”. The Jaime in the book seemed to be characterized above this terrible of a dishonor.
aQuote Reply
That is exactly how I see it playing out next week. At least I hope so. A few things shifted around, but the basic story preserved.
LangkardQuote Reply
cranscape,
Perfectly put.
T-GoodQuote Reply
I loved the name of this episode. Some of the other names have been a bit hit and miss on what exactly they are referring to (“The Old Gods and the New” was definitely vague), but “A Man Without Honor” is such a perfect name since it refers to so many characters–Jorah, who has secretly betrayed Dany in the past; Jaime, who is considered a vile traitor to the man he swore to protect; Ned Stark, who Jaime points out must have cheated on Catelyn to sire a bastard; Jon Snow, who’s honor in keeping his oaths is being tested; and Theon Greyjoy, who has turned on his surrogate family to the extent that he is willing to murder children. The realization on Theon’s face at the end of the episode as he understands just how low he has sunk was stunningly done.
BaramosQuote Reply
I don’t think there’s a need to convince you. Even D&D can swing and miss sometimes. I didn’t like that either.
I’m cool with changes to the story as written though – it sure makes it more interesting to watch. I have to pay attention!
EdQuote Reply
Dreamlife,
I totally agree. I didn’t believe Bran and Rickon had died for a second until I saw Theon’s expression. Then I panicked.
SusieQuote Reply
Didn’t Dany send off Doreah to get information from wealthy ‘happy’ Qarthians? Could Doreah have been seduced by the richest of them all (now King of Qarth) and helped to have the dragon’s captured?
David the GreyQuote Reply
I love the books and the changes they have made do not bother so much. So far they have kept the core intact. I understand there are budgetary and scheduling issues for the story to become fully realize. I did find myself missing Greatjon Umber this season when Robb has these scenes with the Boltons and Karstarks. If Greatjon was there I feel it would add some continuity between season 1 and 2. I know, they have change more important things to the storyline than worrying about adding a minor character like Greatjon. However I do miss him, he is one of Robb’s only bannermen who is not a backstabbing piece of s#!t.
SkywalkerIsDeadQuote Reply
What can I say man. Those two kids are dead. They just didn’t want to show there faces thats all
House SnowQuote Reply
The big deal is that it was very Tywin-esque to use someone who liked and trusted (nay, worshipped him!) as a pawn. (Jaime’s definitely up for killing innocents but not in this cold and calculating way – that just doesn’t seem very Jaime-like to me.) And why did he have to kill Alton? Why was the Karstark kid – who came in when they were talking too loudly – not able to hear him beating someone to death until it was all done?
It didn’t really work logically for me if the whole idea was to lure the Karstark boy into the cage; Jaime could have clued Alton in on the escape plan and had him yell or something with the same effect of getting Torrhen Karstark in the cage, no? (And why only one guard on the Kingslayer? I have so many logical problems with this bit.) And then, after Jaime’s “escape”, Lord Karstark could have killed Alton for aiding Jaime to kill his kid (from Lord Karstark’s perspective) which would <have tied in with Karstark’s murder of the squires in the book after Cat releases Jaime.
I’m not even a book purist, I’m just offended by the lack of logic in this entire scene – it makes no sense to me as staged.
GonfaloniereQuote Reply
Hahaha! Crack me up! This made me take my chill pill real quick :)
WinnieQuote Reply
Yeah, why would he do that? It makes no sense.
MegQuote Reply
Ed,
Jaime has yet to have his epiphany, so I personally think this is in character.
Besides the dude just got done pointing out how distantly related they are, and Jaime is probably the most spur-of-the-moment character in the books. He’s not going to think things through as much anyone else would.
BaramosQuote Reply
After reading the pre-show chat I was a little worried about the possible changes. However, after watching the show I gotta say the only story line changes I don’t like is Jon Snows. It was a big deal that he let her go in the book and also a big deal that Qurin and him fought (and Ghost). Thats how he gained their trust. Im not sure how they are going to do it now but after last episode (and this one) here is my prediction:
-Qurin told Jon before they attacked the wildlings that one was a girl, or possibly that they would leave one alive (if he didnt know one was a girl). He told Jon to prove himself he would need to infiltrate them like he did in the book before they fought and then learn about them for the nights watch. Which would make more sense in why they left him to kill her instead of watching. Another possiblity is that they knew Jon couldnt kill her and might possibly lead her to their people (maybe they [qurin and crew] are following from a distance?). Anyways I think the wildlings will take him and either qurin and his crew will run into them or try to save Jon which is when he’ll have to fight him (possibly qurin told him their may come a time when they have to fight?)
-Actually as I just wrote that which I had been thinking about a new possibility popped into my head. Maybe they will try to kill Jon, but Ghost will save him and as they run away he runs into the night watch again, which is when they then have to make their last stand, and then jon fights Qurin after he makes his speech to him and what not.
-These are just a couple Ideas idk why they are changing Jons so much, kind of dumb, but all the other changes are welcome.
I thought the Jamie thing was great, and honestly I dont think any non book readers will be mad, most people dont even care about Alton. And book readers know the real Jamie so all should be happy.
The Dany added story line is cool, I like how they slit the throats of the 11 others haha that was cool. Makes it a bit more interesting and also forces her to go to the House of the Undying. Who else would willingly go there?
Theon and the fake deaths of Bran and Rickon were good, great cliff hanger, many should be shocked at that and it now looks like Cat will let Jamie go once shes found out their dead
Overall not mad about the changes other then Jons but I have faith they will work it out. Also, sorry if I spelled any names wrong, I dont care to remember exactly how they are spelled.
Oh and one more thing if someone could answer, this was episode 7 and the preview said “Only 2 episodes left” so this season is only 9 and not 10 episodes? or was that an error?
DoubleA012Quote Reply
That’s a possibility. I think perhaps she might also be taking care of the dragons, perhaps having saved her life by convincing the dragon-nappers that the dragons know her, trust her and she can feed them? We’ll see soon enough.
And on a totally unrelated point…
I’m really a bit annoyed that Irri was just killed off with no fanfare. It has left a bit of a hole like never really discussing Roz and the other whore from a couple of weeks ago. Not sure why, but the writers seem to have gone a little too bare bones on the plot for those two instances.
LangkardQuote Reply
There are people legitimately complaining on various forums about the amount of blood Sansa had.
I’m…not sure any of these people are women, because seriously.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Arthur,
I loved the stuff between (comedienne) Ygritte and (straight man) Jon Snow, but I’m not sure about the changes from the progression in the book, especially the absence of Quorin Halfhand and my concern that there won’t be a duel. As it is, “You know nothing, Jon Snow” looks downright stupid, not just an honorable fool.
I don’t have a problem with any of the other changes so far. They have to condense somewhere and I think they’ve made some excellent choices in how to carry the core of the story over from the book to screen.
MaryS-NJQuote Reply
Speaking as a man, I can say that most men remain blissfully ignorant of that whole aspect of womanhood and we are squeamish and just generally unable to deal the subject rationally. Don’t expect reasoned arguments about any facet of it from us.
LangkardQuote Reply
Why are people posting on the book reader’s recap if they dont even know the way the whole Theon/Bran/Rickon thing goes down? Not sure I get why people like that would want to have that whole section of the story either spoiled, although I dont believe it was very believable, are confirmed for them. An another note I fear we have lost a very good Halfhand moment that I don’t believe can be redeemed with the way it is looking like it will go. It will just feel too staged.
The Dear HunterQuote Reply
On the changes: I’m not against any of the changes in theory, but I thought the execution of the changes was pretty corny this week. That’s all I’m going to say about Pyat Pree and his doppelgangers…
BaramosQuote Reply
Langkard,
Oh, no, I get that, it just seemed like a really, really weird thing to complain about.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
I agree that this isn’t quite as good as last week (my full episode review here). Still, there is some really good stuff. The John / Ygritte interaction is awesome. She’s doing a really good job with the character. The Arya / Tywin back and forth is also great – and a few of Jaime’s lines are really funny: “Is that a woman?”
Andy GavinQuote Reply
The Dear Hunter,
Imagine Jon and Qhorin as captives together in Rattleshirt’s camp. They escape. Qhorin gives all of the book canon arguments to Jon about what he needs to do and it proceeds apace. All while cutting out an unnecessary scene or two by condensing it all and shifting the storyline around a bit. I think that’s a reasonable way to work it and I hope that is what happens.
LangkardQuote Reply
Is there no love for Brienne’s “…MAN”?
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
no one else is disappointed in jon not warging? and halfhand realizing they were found after jon tells him his visions with the eagle? resulting in the dule?
im mad disappointed…
Jon ConningtonQuote Reply
ya what did happen to him in the show? did the actor just not come back for season 2?
Jack SlapQuote Reply
Gwendoline Christie is just amazing. I want many more interviews from her. And next season is just going to be Brienne-awesome.
LangkardQuote Reply
No, but Qhorin can catch the wildlings.
What might happen is Qhorin could witness Mance’s camp and then encounter Rattleshirt’s party.
Then he comes up with the idea to have Jon infiltrate the Wildlings, so he labels Jon a deserter and tries to kill him, while a battle breaks out between the two groups. While they sword fight he explains the idea and forces Jon to kill him.
SuzakuQuote Reply
Heres the deal with the halfhand..
I dont see why they would even cast him in the show if Jon killing him was not going to happen.. Think about it. What has he added to the show so far that the Lord Commander could not have done or some other ranger that has already been introduced etc.
Jack SlapQuote Reply
I didn’t quite gather what went on in Qarth. Who was crowning himself king, Daxos?
BlaargQuote Reply
Duck Sauce. He got in bed with the warlocks.
Brandon StarkQuote Reply
how did Jorra initially betray Dany? I didnt’ get that..
paulQuote Reply
Blaarg,
Yes. That’s why he kills the 11 members of the 13 who are not him and Pyat Pree.
BaramosQuote Reply
paul,
He was spying on her for Varys, sending him notes about her movements and what she is doing. That’s why Varys has that kid give him a royal pardon for his trying to enslave those poachers.
BaramosQuote Reply
She was PERFECTION in this episode. Her candor and facial expressions when speaking alone with Catelyn? Absolutely priceless.
I’m going to be rewatching the episode with the West coast, so just a mini-braindump now, but I’m very pleased with how they’ve changed up Jon’s story line. I don’t think they’re sacrificing important elements, just mixing it up to keep people on their toes and provide some (IMHO) much-needed information about the Wildlings so the audience can truly appreciate the magnitude of this stage in Jon’s journey.
And, again, Rose Leslie is murdering me with every line she utters. In the best possible way. The Ygritte/Jon back and forth was off the charts great.
VeeQuote Reply
paul,
He was sending Robert information on her
Megan TeschQuote Reply
On Bran and Rickon-I almost believe they didn’t really want people to believe its Bran and Rickon. They really highlighted orphan kids, so I think they just bit the bullet and said noone is going to believe this part and shot it the way they did.
House SnowQuote Reply
paul,
By reporting to Varys in season 1.
Andy GavinQuote Reply
Baramos,
ahh thank you
paulQuote Reply
Suzaku,
They corner them in the book…
BaramosQuote Reply
Craig Leska,
Had the same question. That’s just wrong, but it’s a weird mistake to make.
Tom HiltonQuote Reply
I think they meant to say only 2 episodes left until the finale, which is the usual way HBO does these things. But someone screwed it up.
LangkardQuote Reply
Sense and modernism.
Loving Ygritte here!… but too busy to say more.
andreaQuote Reply
So two small kids, a retard, and a wildling are able to elude an entire hunting party through the woods? Really? And Theon was a skilled hunter at that
GRRMQuote Reply
Thanks for posting this for me! Thinking that right now the show is doing an excellent job of keeping the moments/scenes I love (San/San, “you know nothing, Jon Snow”) but still keeping me guessing (dragon napping, what the hell is Jamie gonna . . . oh, shit, that’s cold, dude). Finding that I really love the moments that keep me guessing.
AssuntaQuote Reply
CGI for Harrenhal was amazing. Loved seeing it that way
Sword-O-Da-Mornin’Quote Reply
I am will to turn crazy if I have to wait until next year for just another 10 episodes. Seasons should last 20 episodes! Starks are getting plucked off left and right. Today Lady Stark received the worst Mother’s day present twice over!
TitoQuote Reply
Also… Did The Hound just tell Sansa he was on her side?
He said something like “You wont mind the hatefull things I do when I’m the only one standing between your beloved king and you”.
Wasn’t that him basically saying he will protect her??? Hmm maybe I’m reading into it to much…
ArthurQuote Reply
Does anyone think that Dagmar Cleftjaw (Theon’s first mate) might actually be Bolton’s bastard in disguise? I’m not sure if they could pull that off, but he is playing a lot of the roles that reek played by suggesting the murder of the miller’s kids
don draperQuote Reply
So many great scenes and quotable lines (“Did you pull a knife on me in the night?”) I can’t wait for all of the recaps.
BTW, Hibbard’s is up: http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-7/
WeirwoodQuote Reply
Ah! Good call!
It makes much more sense to me that Halfhand and gang were simply captured and physically unable to find Jon, as opposed to just being inept…..that still leaves room for an important conversation and “test” to occur… I shall have faith in the writers :)
WinnieQuote Reply
Does anyone else think we’ll see Irri’s big death scene she was talking about in an interview in the House of the Undying?
AngelaQuote Reply
Craig Leska,
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. WTF? Maybe they are skipping Memorial Day weekend and putting two episodes together for the finale. But you still don’t say it’s two episodes.
paylorQuote Reply
~ James Hibberd.
Ha!
PatDQuote Reply
Something interesting not yet mentioned, Tywin seemed to suggest that arya is posing as a commoner when she is actually a higher born girl. Thoughts?
Not sure where they’re going with it
T-GoodQuote Reply
Just noticed that The Hound was dubbed in this episode as well as the previous episode with another voice. Sounds nothing like Rory McCann.
Wonder why they would do this?
BeQuote Reply
Gives me butterflies.
Glad D&D didn’t write the books and George was adapting… they just look for ways to dick with it. So many great scenes with one medium.
I laughed at the death of the 13.
Still hoping for the Q sacrifice but not holding my breath.
Theon was great.
daev3Quote Reply
One might be driven slightly mad being tied up for long periods of time surrounded by enemies. It might alter one’s sense of right and wrong, push one to desperate measures? Just sayin.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
I know this is a fairly minor point, but I do think that Ian Whyte redeemed himself as the Mountain, i found him much more intimidating physically and verbally in this episode than I did with episode 4. On another note, I think the scenes are really well done but for some reason I am really freaked out about how they are changing Jon Snows storyline, for some reason I have this (likely foolish) fear that he’s going to turn himself over to the wildlings with out Qhorin ordering him to, which I think is VERY important. I doubt D&D would do that, but then again I don’t know, and with the way Jon has seemed rather…. bumbling in these episodes makes me nervous. Jon’s one of my favorite characters, and I don’t want them to screw up his (already kinda screwy :)) sense of honor.
Ser Balon SwannQuote Reply
It seemed very odd that he was even there.
MikeQuote Reply
It’s probably just further evidence Tywin is catching onto her, but
ADWD Spoilers (not worth spoiling yourself over if you haven’t read it, as it’s related to a pretty big plot point)
Roose Bolton has the same conversation with Theon/Reek when they’re marching north, as Theon says “My lord” and Roose tells him a lowborn person (as “reek” is supposed to be) would say m’lord because they’re too stupid to know there’s two words to it.
LordStarkingtonQuote Reply
Not as exciting as last weeks but still good. Comparing the first half of season 1 to the first half of season 2 I would say that overall season 2 has been better but one thing that this episode makes noticeable is that unlike the first season the second half of this season won’t have the constant building of momentum and increased quality of storytelling that the second half of the first season had. This was more more of a slow burn episode and I’m thinking next weeks might be too. All the of the second half of the first season episodes were epic and filled with game changing events. It should really pick up with the finale 2 episodes of this season though. I’ve seen some people comment before that they don’t want Vanessa Taylor to write episodes next season but IMO she has written 2 most exciting and entertaining episodes this season and her episodes have been by far the most well received by nonreaders.
JamesLQuote Reply
Great episode. I think I loved every scene(save many for the Talsia scene…I still just don’t like her character, nothing towards the actress but she’s very blah, but I do love Richard Madden as Robb so…it stinks haha)
Cersei/Tyrion scene was terrific. Emotional and wonderful acted. I love when he went up to her and she just looks so shamed and he looks so awkward. It’s just..wow…They both deserve Emmys for that brilliant scene.
Maester Luwin…ergh heartbreaking.
Sansa…double heartbreaking. Love that scene with her and Cerssei.
Arya/Tywin…brilliance in every sense of the word.
Ygriette + You no nothing John Snow” = me cheering.
I like what they are doing with Dany. She is so much flawed then book Danny. I love it. She’s so real and Emilia does such a wonderful job.
Every Jaime scene was flawless. I can’t wait to see where his character goes. Love that scene with Alton and LOVED that scene with Catlynn.
Seriously this episode was like a lesson in brilliant acting.
One thing I’ll add, I don’t think Talsia = Jeyne. She didn’t seem super against going to the Crag. She just didn’t think she should. But when Robb smiled back at her, she smiled too…I really hate this storyline, I wish they would have kept the innocent love of Jeyne and not this sort of one dimensional chick.
JoshQuote Reply
No way. I’m pretty sure it’s just because they’re not going to cast Reek until season 3 and need someone to fill the role in the meantime.
Why would Bolton send his son to Pyke to pose as a member of Theon’s crew? He wouldn’t have even known Theon would be going to war against the Starks.
SuzakuQuote Reply
I has an idea! Is it possible they’ve made us a little 2-hour season finale? Does HBO do that?
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
Gay for Cersei,
every source I’ve checked said there are TEN, not nine, episodes. Last 3 are “The Prince of Winterfell”, “Blackwater”, and “Valar Morghulis”
Ser Balon SwannQuote Reply
Much, MUCH better episode than last week!
The reutrn of Jaime Lannister was long overdue, but thankfully this was his episode both in name and by deed! As I was watching I knew he would kill Alton, but the impact was still huge and it was one of the best scenes of the season bar none!
Tywin and Arya continue to be amazing together. as do Tyrion and Cersei. I am completely okay with the changes to the Bran/ Rickon storyline so far and I hope it continues to be different from the books long into next year!
I absolutely love the chemistry between Yrgritte and Jon (or maybe I should say Rose and Kit), but I am not sold on the changes to the story. I guess we got a few more moments of them alone than in the books and that was D&D’s design, but I do not think it has paid off in any meaningful way. Their time alone would have been just as good if not more impactful later in the story with the roles reversed! At least this week’s Jon scenes were improvement over last week’s fiasco of losing Ygritte maybe 100 feet from the best racker the Night’s Wacth has seen this generation.
I am not a fan of the stolen dragons. This episode did little to win me over to that plot device. The Pyat Pree duplicates killing the Thriteen was a pretty intense scene, but I still think it played out better when Daenerys chose to go to the House of the Undying on her own as a way to take control of her own fate. This theft of her dragons just reenforces how weak and inexperienced she is…. how childlike. Hopefully they will move beyond that aspect of her very soon because I am very tired of her acting like she has in the series!
It’s been very nice to see random Direwolf sightings the last few episodes! That is how it should havebeen last year! They do not need to be front and center in every scene, but they should appear as often as their owners do.
Overall this was an incredible episode and one of the best this year…. easily! The return of Jaime added so much to the episode for me and I did not miss Joffrey, Varys or Littlefinger (and his whores) one bit! In fact I would say part of this episode bing as strong as it was is due to not having a very forced feeling Littlefinger scene!
Here are this week’s episode extras:
http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/05/game-of-thrones-episode-207-man-without_14.html
darquemodeQuote Reply
In a recent interview, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau claimed that Episode 7 contained one of his favorite scenes that he had ever participated in as an actor. After watching Jaime’s conversation with the unfortunate Alton Lannister (I assume that was the scene, though his later conversation with Catelyn was great as well), I can see why. That was some remarkably eloquent and tense dialogue that told us volumes about his character, and then pulled the rug out at the end. And of course, he got to kick a little ass – despite being chained – there at the end. Jaime probably hasn’t been enough of a factor this season for NCW to get any awards attention (I assume that no one in this fine cast will other than the very-deserving Peter Dinklage, which is a shame) but that scene certainly merits recognition for all the actors and writers who helped bring it to life.
And before anyone mentions it, I don’t care that the scene wasn’t in the book. I also don’t buy the earlier argument on the Open Thread that D&D have somehow irrecoverably ruined Jaime by making him a kinslayer as well as a Kingslayer. I won’t condemn that line of reasoning, because it’s a perfectly valid opinion, but it’s my opinion is that his actions were entirely consistent with the kind of man Jaime was at this stage in the second book. Jaime saw an opportunity to get back to Cersei, and he acted on it. Alton/Cleos’ death was his means to achieving that end.
JaredQuote Reply
Checked out HBO’s schedule for the next 3 weeks. There is still 3 episodes left :)
S moneyQuote Reply
I think we’ll find out whether people believe rickon and brans death by the twitter reports
WhereTheWildRickonsRQuote Reply
Mike Chair,
Some of my favorite stuff.
Anne AnsibleQuote Reply
The Ducksauce twist tripped me out more than Jaime. I wouldn’t really consider that going over to the dark side, or kinslaying… (well, it depends on whether Alton was related through his mother’s side or his “father’s” side, if you catch my drift), but I have a different take on it. I’d get into it right now, but I don’t really want to get into it right now (lucky you).
Varamyr FourskinsQuote Reply
Susie,
He still killed two children. Don’t you think he’d be just a tiny bit remorseful about that?
paylorQuote Reply
I’ve updated the post with my full recap and reactions. My quick review: this episode kicked ass. Some amazing acting and interesting twists and turns.
Oh, and I seem to be one of the only ones who liked the Qarth stuff. That Pyat Pree is one cold-blooded and creepy mofo.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Really hope they don’t ruin Jaime’s character as he is the best written character in the book’s in my opinion.
As long as they establish clearly that he did it to get back to Cersei and he shows regret for his actions later, I believe it is recoverable.
However, I do wonder why they are making Jaime less sympathetic just couple episodes away from season 3 when he becomes a fully fledged major character to root for and then after that in AFFC he is basically the protagonist of that book.
smahsmahQuote Reply
Susie,
Theon really pisses me off but there at the end, looked like he was in his own personal hell.
patchy faceQuote Reply
It looks like we might still get that scene between Robb and Cat then when Robb comes back married and Cat has released Jaime.
Glad that they managed to work that in despite all the changes.
Although Cat’s motivation is a little messed up if this is when she releases him.
I think in the books she does it when grief stricken over the news about Bran and Rickon.
KyronQuote Reply
LordStarkington,
Ya I assume they’re trying to show Tywin is figuring out his cupbearer isn’t who she says she is. But I don’t think he will find out who she is because they would be a major deviation, anyways…
Yep I do remember that from ADWD quite well
T-GoodQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Loved the Qarth stuff — thought it was actually a big improvement over the book.
patchy faceQuote Reply
This
Magnar of ThennQuote Reply
Why hasn’t Tyrion been hinting at the chain?!?!?! That was a huge buildup for me while reading please somebody help me!!!! :( surely they aren’t going to leave out the chain!!
RoyboyQuote Reply
Lol…
Looks like HBO pulled the “only 2 episodes left” teaser from the second 11PM airing. This shows it was clearly a mistake that they got word of.
Every other second airing I have watched showed the preview trailer right after, same as first airing.
So no worries. There are 3 episodes left, not 2…
ArthurQuote Reply
Watched tonites episode for second time and this time no next weeks scene, guess HBO trying to fix that 2 episodes left screwup!!!!!
ShaggydogQuote Reply
Kyron,
Yep, didn’t even think about that. Everything has been flowing well in the bigger picture.
Like most others I hope the half hand vs Jon dynamic isn’t lost, and I don’t think it will be. They are just taking. Diff route to same end. Like somebody said earlier in another thread.
T-GoodQuote Reply
I suppose that makes sense. I can see his morals breaking down after a while…I think I’d go a little nuts if something was chafing my neck that long, too.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
I really enjoy Charles and Maisie together but Tywin and Arya bonding like this makes absolutely zero sense.
GreyjoyingQuote Reply
Jared,
NCW was talking about the scene where he kills Alton. He discusses it in the Episode Extras I linked earlier.
I think that was so in character for Jaime despite some not feeling that way. He saved himself by any means necessary. When he sees a weakness he uses it to his advantage. I just hope it doesn’t come back to bite him in the hand….
darquemodeQuote Reply
Boy, people are really pissed at Theon on Twitter.
LordStarkingtonQuote Reply
Someone on another forum — I lose track of all the GoT ones I read, I think it was TWOP maybe? Or Westeros.org? one of those — called Jaime ‘badass’ for killing his cousin.
I cringed. That was badass like all the death in The Hunger Games was badass. Ick.
I guess I’m just really oversensitive to these kinds of things. I can’t help but think, “But Alton probably had FRIENDS and HOPES and DREAMS and they all ended RIGHT THERE.” Hah.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Ed’s Theory of the Day: Dorreah betrayed Dany for Gold!
EdQuote Reply
Hehe, welcome to the books! After the House of the Undying and the whole ordeal with obtaining the Unsullied….well, you’ll be eating a ton of snacks dude
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Langkard,
but didn’t they already establish in the last episode that they wouldn’t take qhorin captive? just cut off his head if he’s lucky?
if it pleaseQuote Reply
Anyone else worried about the fact that Catelyn asked for Brienne’s sword at the end of her conversation with Jaime? I hope she doesn’t cut his hand off.
DogmayorQuote Reply
Btw,
Was Anybody else hoping Jaime was going to tell the story of Ned’s brother and father. Or does that happen somewhere else in the story? I can’t remember.
T-GoodQuote Reply
I don’t know I think it will make his change in character better. To this point He seems less bad guy then he did in the big. It wouldn’t even seem like he was having a big transformation. The more bad things he does the more it will seem like he is becoming a better man later on.
House SnowQuote Reply
Too soon for that I think (and hope).
LordDavos12Quote Reply
if it please,
In the preview for next week you can see that Qhorin has been captured by the wildlings. They show just a little flash of him as they throw down Jon in front of him. There’ll probably be a pic of it floating around in no time.
DogmayorQuote Reply
I don’t think it’s better, just different. Kind of like an equally good alternate ending in a film. I think D&D’s version of the story is every bit as good on screen as GRRM’s is on paper. I have found that some scenes so far played out better in the book, and vice versa. I’m sure when GRRM was writing the tale, he sometimes pondered which of several ways to proceed with a storyline, and this medium has now provided a means of revealing alternate means to the same ends. There are certain things I can’t help but kind of wish they hadn’t changed (i.e. Arya won’t be stabbing The Tickler), but this is just the sort of expansive story that can afford some latitude and be just as enjoyable.
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
Been a while since I’ve read as well, but I think it would fit during Brienne and Jaime’s travels for him to tell her that story
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Awesome episode!
I understand everyones being upset that there are deviations from the book. Some have worked even better others not as great as the book such as the Jon stuff but it really isn’t that bad.
We all knew there were going to have to be changes. No since in getting that pissed off about it. Unless you want to pay the production costs,then by all means write a check to HBO!
No,I have not been a fan of the beyond the wall stuff. But I must say that Kit and Rose were simply amazing!
Dany and her mishaps were to me very boring in the books. Her story has been pretty boring here too. Sad,cause Emilia is great!
Lena was wonderful here too.
Cersai’s speech to Tyrion was great.
Sansa…ugh…I hated that moment when she woke up and found her sheets bloody…felt her dred and fear. I loved the change with Shae!
For the first time I actually liked Shae.
By far the best change has been Arya/Tywin! The exchanges between them have been brillent!
That for me is the best story! Can’t wait for the end! Team Arya all the way!
I knew the winterfell story was gonna be the hardest! It was!
HildaQuote Reply
I don’t know… Just a cool scene in the future when Tywin learns who she truly is, and you see the realization dawn on his face would be worth it.
Reminds me of a scene in the old Clint Eastwood movie “Firefox” when a Russian Colonel realizes who Clint Eastwood really is and what he’s there for… It’s awesome. “No!! He CANNOT be here for that!!!”
EdQuote Reply
Honestly, I don’t mind the new Gregor casting, even though the previous one was better.
LexyvilQuote Reply
Dogmayor,
Im pretty sure it is right from the book. if i recall correctly next she is going to ask him for his word that if she releases him he will do right by her and tell Tyrion to send her arya and Sansa
T-GoodQuote Reply
All of the boner jokes had me rolling. Torturing virgin Jon is so much fun.
Brienne’s MAN was out of left field and hilarious.. I had to rewind and watch that. Jaime saying “Where did you find that BEAST?” made me LOL. Those two are going to be AWESOME!!!
I was surprised that the Hound was so forward in his ability to protect Sansa from her King. I immediately thought back to King Targaryen and the mauling of his wife. Would the Hound really intercept Joffrey’s abuses? Such a San/San moment right there. =)
Rickon continues to scare me.. in a good way. He’s either going to be a total psycho or the biggest badass of the series.
MimsyQuote Reply
Yeah, that would have been cool.
EdQuote Reply
I was just watching the promo for next week on youtube and I’m positive they show Jon being forced onto the ground next to Qhorin. It’s probably only a second where his face is visible.
DaveQuote Reply
I really liked this whole episode. I don’t mind the changes from the book. I actually liked them…
My only disappointment is D&D not giving us a good Jaime escape scene. This season lacks action. I know from watching behind the scenes stuff that D&D hired an actual swordsmaster. I thought for sure, by how Nik talked about this episode in interviews, that we’d see an awesome hack and slash sword fight scene where Jaime kills 13 Northmen singlehandedly.
I miss Khal Drogo. I miss seeing a badass warrior ripping people’s tongues out through their throat. I really think the absence of a warrior like Drogo leaves a void for fans like me.
I hope when they cast Strong Belwas, they give us another badass shirtless barbarian-like warrior. I don’t want him to be a fatass. I was wishing Jaime would satisfy my primal need for some nasty sword fighting but it didn’t happen.
D&D please give us a badass warrior like Drogo. (Strong Belwas). =P
Okay I ranted enough…
ArthurQuote Reply
Joseph,
So Episode 10 it’s not called Valhar Morgulis?
RoBBBQuote Reply
anyone else think that the miller’s sons are the same orphan boys that Bran sent to that grey-haired man (that Theon punches) a few episodes back?
MegQuote Reply
To be fair my friend, that moment is the only time Drogo actually fights someone. Crown for a king was badass, yes, but all Drogo did was dump a pot.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Tyrion saying nothing about the chain…anyone else devastated? Surely to god they arent cutting the chain!
RoyboyQuote Reply
LordDavos12,
Yea that’s what I figure will happen, cheers to another great episode
T-GoodQuote Reply
I think they deliberately inserted the orphan scene at Winterfell to establish a defendable storyline once Rickon and Bran are revealed to be still alive.
MikeQuote Reply
Derpstradamus, yeah that is exactly what I am thinking. They seem to be removing one of the best parts of the book with Qhorin and Jon retreating through the wilds. “Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?”
DanQuote Reply
i am happy with the san/san scenes!!! at last we saw sandor being mean to sansa, instead of the softer version from the show (all right, he didn’t put his sword against her neck, but it was still wonderful) and saying how he would protect her- it reminded me of the dragonknight who was in love with his king/brother’s queen… i also liked shae now, and sophie and rory were as always great!!
jon/yrgritte, really funny!! and don’t like theon much now. poor cat, the north is really going to hate her after next week, but her acting tonight was awesome. and jaime, yes he killed his cousin, but i love the guy, his lines are so cool! i’m scared of pyat pree and feel so sad for ser jorah….
can’t believe there’s only 3 more weeks to go!! :(
Carolina HQuote Reply
Royboy, they briefly mentioned the chain in one of the earlier episodes. So it should be showing up.
DanQuote Reply
I freakin’ LOVED line of Brienne’s, and didn’t Catelyn NAIL IT this episode? Fairely was especially powerful IMO.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
I could have sworn he was going to say something to Cersei along the lines of “Well, I’ve taken precautions that will aid us against Stannis’ ships.” Even if it had been something like that without revealing the chain itself, I would have been happy.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Maybe they’re saving some of the magic/wargy stuff till next season?
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Perhaps my mead has gone to my mind, but I don’t recall when this happened. Do you remember what ep?
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
I’m liking the Qarth storyline too. Except for the fact they have apparently killed Dany’s entire Khalasar. It does actually give some purpose for her to go to the House of the Undying.
paylorQuote Reply
Strong Belwas needs to be fat, it forms a protective layer for his vital organs.
HumMis1349Quote Reply
RoyboyQuote Reply
They had a 6 or 7 hour head start, so it’s plausible. Plus in the book they did some fancy backtracking and walking through streams to throw the hounds off their scents.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
This one thinks that Tywin suspects she’s a high-born bastard girl or something like that, but has bigger fish to fry so doesn’t think about it too much. It is curious though that Arya seems to be getting a little too bold, hope it doesn’t get her into even MORE trouble.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
LordDavos12,
That’s true but there are zero moments like that this season. I know this is a Drama series and not about action. But I want to see some warriors fighting. Blackwater will be good but I want some one on one stuff…..
I guess I’m being greedy. I am a AD&D and World of Warcraft nerd. I want some epic warrior action… Gimme gimme! Lol…
ArthurQuote Reply
Is it me or does anyone else scream INFECTION whenever Talisa comes into a scene? Her dirty/bloody sleeves and week old hand rags creep me out. It’s a miracle anyone survives her nursing.
MimsyQuote Reply
I don’t recall the chain ever being mentioned either and I have been waiting for it….
darquemodeQuote Reply
Is his accent super thick?
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Arthur,
I think next week is Nik’s favorite. Not this one. Loved his reaction to Brienne…for a few reasons!
GatorfischQuote Reply
I’ve noticed a lack of comments regarding Alfie Allen’s portrayal of Theon Greyjoy, and with every episode of late I’m more impressed by him. His character is quite a complicated one, and it’s not getting any easier. It should be noted that Alfie is doing a truly incredible job.
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
Nope, it was this episode.
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
Agreed.
If Strong Belwas is even cast he needs to be huge and fat and by all apprearances at first he needs to come off as an idiot – NOT a warrior!
darquemodeQuote Reply
I agree. I should have mentioned his performance, as he is really nailing the part. I think, for me at least, the reason I neglected to mention him, is just the feeling of utter disgust I get off the character. Yes, that’s the intention, I know…he’s just so good at being bad it makes me feel guilty saying I like what he is doing. :)
LordDavos12Quote Reply
To be honest, I’m not thrilled. A lot of the moments didn’t work for me and a huge number of scenes are already ridiculously out of character thanks to the butterfly effect of countless tiny changes.
Honestly, so far I’m kinda disappointed with Season 2. The first one was better. The changes irk me most, but there are moments where the writing is just weak regardless of its faithfulness.
RinsoQuote Reply
Jon Connington,
for me it was more like
*giggles like a little schoolgirl*
Pyat Dean PeltonQuote Reply
Arthur,
Honestly the lack of “epic” action is exactly what I LOVE about ASoIaF and Game of Thrones. The small quiet moments speak louder than any action scene to me and mean more to the overall story.
On top of that the sword fights in the series have been hit and miss frankly. They have a much higher percentage of getting the heavy drama right than they do of getting the action scenes right.
darquemodeQuote Reply
Meg,
Well, Bran did explicitly state that the two Winterfell orphans were at that farm when they first came upon it.
AndrewQuote Reply
Nothing wrong with being a WoW nerd. Don’t worry; as I’m sure you know, the best Jaime scenes are yet to come…not necessarily this season of course. On a side note, will Diablo III consume your life this week as it will mine?
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Rewatching the episode. Brienne’s line, “Who wants to die defending a Lannister?” Oh, Brienne. :) I love how she said “die.”
MimsyQuote Reply
This is exactly what i hope they *don’t*do
the great thing about Belwas, and I love me some Strong Belwas, is that everyone underestimates him for a big dumb idiot with a ridiculous vest.
But we all know differently from Mereen
Plus, can you imagine a badass warrior like drogo screaming “LOCUSTS!!!!” with unrestrained glee???
andrewQuote Reply
Anybody see Larry’s review yet? Let me just say that his friend gave him some faulty information..Seemed like his friend either doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or that his friend tried to not spoil anything and just botched it haha
T-GoodQuote Reply
One of my favorite episodes ever.
I’m in love with Rose’s Ygritte. Her chemistry with Kit is AMAZING! And Michelle Fairley was brilliant as usual. Good to have Jamie back as well.
I really disliked Dany’s scenes last episode, but her scenes tonight were creepy and suspenseful!
And I enjoyed Talisa! I liked her introduction scene in Ep. 4, but wasn’t a fan of the dialogue between her and Robb last week. This one was much better. And Oona is beautiful!
I miss my Gendry, though. And Varys as well!
But yeah, fantastic episode.
Hi-FiQuote Reply
It was completely unnecessary for him to kill Alton though – why not just keep talking when the Karstark kid told them not to or make a bunch of noise until Torrhen Karstark came in to intervene? He seemed quick enough to interrupt Jaime and Alton conversing so I find it hard to believe Jaime had to beat someone to death to get the guy’s attention a second time. (And why is there only one person guarding Jaime Lannister? Really? That seems totally unbelievable.)
The problem for me with killing Alton was that the cold-bloodedness Jaime shows there is out of character. I don’t mean that Jaime isn’t capable of really evil, horrible things because he obviously he is, but he’s never read to me as someone who can cold-bloodedly plot a murder while chilling with the guy he’s about to kill. That’s Tywin’s speed, not Jaime’s and the books make a point of telling us that Jaime is dissimilar to Tywin in that regard. He doesn’t think things through and plot like that to gain someone’s trust before he kills them. he just kills them.
I totally, totally buy him killing the Karstark boy to get the keys and get out of there, but killing Alton makes no sense. It’s not impulsive (as so many of Jaime’s actions are) but calculated, and it’s also unnecessary, and most importantly it seems totally out of character for Jaime.
GonfaloniereQuote Reply
RoBBB,
There are 3 episodes left not 2. None are more than the usual hour long format. The HBO shcedule has them listed and Valar Morghulis is the title for the finale.
http://www.hbo.com/#/schedule
Or for an easier to navigate and read schedule…
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/showatch/game-of-thrones/listings/
darquemodeQuote Reply
I agree with you. I also don’t understand why “Jaime would do it to get back at Cersei.” At this point, it does not make sense.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Too bad we didn’t get to see Deepwood Motte this week or we’d have gotten to see the jet-setting Littlefinger during his 2-hour layover before his flight back to Kings Landing…..
MikeQuote Reply
You sir, made me laugh out loud. And also think of Marcus Fenix.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Meg,
This thread is for people who’ve read the books, Meg.
Matt ChungQuote Reply
Mike,
Ha!
Best comment of the night!
I am so glad we did not get more over-active and over-sharing Littlefinger this week.
darquemodeQuote Reply
Gotta be a fatass, man. Gotta be.
Hear, hear!
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
Well, that was painful. Benioff and Weiss completely butchered Jaime’s character by having him kill his made-up for the show cousin. It’s not like you have to make stuff up to show that Jaime is not a fluff bunny – being a sister fucker and little boy defenestrator already shows that Jaime is not on the side of the angels. Making him a kinslayer to boot is overkill. Also, he didn’t have to kill that hapless and starstruck kid to get the guards attention.
And as the cherry on the crappy sundae the vows scene was a pale shadow of the chapter in the book.
This makes me dread how they are going to muck up Jaime’s ASOS storyline.
DuckyQuote Reply
I ROFL.
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
new Mountain is suck!!! Sandor look more scary than him!
KibQuote Reply
Huh? I’ve read them. Twice.
MegQuote Reply
has anyone seen Larry’s review someone lied to him about the whole bran and rickon thing and telling him the direwolves are died lol
AlexQuote Reply
shit that was a good episode. Things I liked:
1. Arya vs Tywin
2. You know nothing Jon Snow
3. SanSan
4. tyrion ALMOST comforting cersei
5. Robb and Volantis Woman
Damryn of DorneQuote Reply
You know, I was ready to hate on the new Lurch-like Mountain, as well. But his conversation with Tywin was fine. Good enough that, when I imagined it being with the original Gregor, I couldn’t picture it being as good. Season 1 Gregor seemed always out-of-control mad/angry/scary and hardly even capable of understanding the orders that Tywin gave Lurch, tonight.
Pleasantly surprised.
MikeQuote Reply
To be fair, Sandor is supposed to look scarier in terms of looks…not counting size.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Dark Sister referenced but Jaime’s a kinslayer y’all crackers caught me trippin
ser lyonel the laughing stormQuote Reply
On man, the scenes with Jon and Ygritte are just great. In contrast the Robb/Talisa scenes are just so much weaker.
Also Lena Headey has been great all season and was great again tonight.
Also loves the Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys conversation between Arya and Tywin. I love it when they find ways to insert some history background into conversations.
SyrioQuote Reply
LordDavos12,
Yes me and my friends will take off work to play Diablo III lol…
On the whole Strong Belwas thing… I just want D&D to satisfy my demographic (20yr-30yr olds). It really isn’t important is Belwas has a belly. I am just saying we need some warrior scenes (medevil weapon fighting scenes). We have plenty of drama, plenty of complex storyline, plenty of nudity and sex, but we haven’t had any warrior action. Last season we had the Jamie Vs Ned build up. We had Dothraki stuff and Drogo. This season we just get a bunch of beheadings and we got to see Brienne kill 2 knights in 3.5 seconds. I know there is a lot on the plate D&D has to serve us already. But is it to much to ask for one epic swordfight once or twice a season?
I guess I’m just upset because I was soooo looking forward to seeing an awesome choreographed swordfight scene were Jaime hacks his way through 13 Northmen. And it never happened =[.
There are individual warrior aspects to this already hugely complex story and I just feel they are being forgotten.
ArthurQuote Reply
Maybe I just took something else entirely out of the scenes with Jaime tonight, but I got the distinct impression that he was expecting to be killed or to escape, and that he didn’t care which it ended up being. His line about not being suited for captivity said to me that Jaime essentially felt like it was now or never, and if he wasn’t able to get away he’d make damn sure they didn’t lock him back up by being totally ruthless (which he was). I can see why NCW enjoyed the scene so much, because it really shows just how broken Jaime feels about who he is and what he is and isn’t capable of. Jaime may be many things, but a prisoner isn’t one of them, so in that context his desperate escape attempt came across as a kamikaze-ish venture from the get-go. Little does he know…
Pastor_of_MuppetsQuote Reply
Amazing scene from Peter. You could FEEL the “I’m almost going to hug her”.
MikeQuote Reply
I’m extremely annoyed at this too, not because “they changed something”. They’ve changed lots of things this year and most of it I’m okay with — and some of it has been decidedly better (Arya + Tywin makes for a much better show than Arya +Roose Bolton — and it’s not even remotely close).
The problem with the changes they made to Jon’s arc this year is that they have made the main hero of the books out to look like a bumbler, instead. They have not been “true” to Jon’s character. THAT is the problem with the changes. Moreover, it’s not as strong a story. They have 7 episodes next year to show Jon and Ygritte. We didn’t need more of that now.
What they have also done is not establish that Jon is a warg. Given the importance of this in ADwD, my worry is that they are going to make a major change in the book they can’t easily write themselves out of.
As for WHY they made this change with Jon, I think it comes down to cost: they spent their motherlode of CGI on Blackwater. They didn’t have enough left for Ghost in the mountains, fighting an eagle and for a look at a camp of wildlings, giants and mammoths.
So we got Jon+Ygritte instead.
This, in and of itself, is not that big a deal. The problem is that along the way, they have removed the reveal of Jon being a warg — and worse — have turned the one larger than life hero in the novels into a bumbling fool, who is not a warg, does not find the cloak with the obsidian arrows and knife blades, can be snuck up on and knocked unconscious by an old man, is not requested to go ranging — but instead begs to do it like the kid on the Wall with Benjen — who DISOBEYS a direct order to kill Ygritte, and who can’t keep her close even after she’s escaped once already, and who gets surprised and surrounded by a group of wildlings.
THAT is the part that isn’t okay. Changing the story is one thing; changing the character? Especially one as important to the series as Jon is — is quite another.
Steel_WindQuote Reply
Okay the same orphans that Bran sent there, right? I just like that little parallel that they are in the wrong place, wrong time partially because of Bran.
@Steel Wind
I think they pushed up Jon and his spearwife because “This season is the season of the love story” – David and Dan. Blech.
MegQuote Reply
Anyone else starting to hate Dany? She pisses me right off.
MikeQuote Reply
I’ve never enjoyed her. I know some people do, and I don’t want to bag on anyone, but in the quilt that is ASoIaF, she is the poop patch.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
The Spice King was too fierce for this world. ;_;
JQuote Reply
And speaking of changes…
No hiding in the crypts? Or are we to guess they went back there?
Steel_WindQuote Reply
Mike,
I can live with the new Mountain I guess. But if Conan is available for the season where Viper vs Mountain goes down I really hope they get Conan.
The Mountain is another one of my favorite warriors. He wears armor that is so thick and heavy no other man can even try to wear it. The new Mountain doesn’t look muscular at all, he just looks tall.
Also, all the major houses have their little mystical advantages.
Targaryen is Dragons
Starks is Direwolves
Baratheons is Mel
Lannisters is The Mountain
That’s all the Lannisters have. So at least make him completely badass.
Also, let’s face it. After the Viper poisons him. He gets sent to a dungeon and some “nacromancer” type guy basicaly keeps him alive (or brings him from the dead) and he becomes basically a Flesh Golem.
ArthurQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
WIC I love what they are doing in Qarth, I love to be surprised and it is a definite improvement over what Martin wrote. The motiviation for Dany to go to the House of the Undying seemed sketchy to me in the book. I also loved how the thirteen or the twelve, lol, get taken out and also Jorah trying to kill the Warlock but guess what it was an illusion, all very cool. Really don’t get why people are not more excited about this change especially since most people found Dany’s story in CLOK boring. Very nice as a reader to be surprised, loving it.
Also I was totally fine with Jaime killing his cousin. He has always done what he has to do to survive. That is who he is and yes he does change on his journey that is coming up but not yet. So for people to say he would never kill his kin is ridiculous. He is loyal to Cersei, Tyrion and his father and that is it. If someone is in his way he will do what he has to do get move through them. For goodenss sakes people he shoved a ten year old boy out of a tower hoping to kill him and you think he has some sort of moral compass, that is just silly.
I cannot wait to see the reaction of the non-book readers to the final scene. I was reading the book on a flight to NY, years ago, and I freaked out completely, just couldn’t believe it. So I hope everybody who has not read the books freaks out as well.
But the real reason this was my favorite episode of the season were the incredible scenes and incredible acting tonight, Jaime and his cousins, Jaime and Catelyn, Tyrion and Cersei, and Arya and Tynin, wow all of those scenes were acted at the highest level, just so interesting and intense, especially when Jaime was talking to Catelyn about Ned’s honor, wow that was brutal and awesome!!!
So best episode of the season for me and it is only going to get better!! Yes I also loved Jon and Ygritte and again don’t mind the changes.
Eric NiewohnerQuote Reply
Arthur,
Yeah, I think Conan would be a better fit for the Viper fight. We’ll see what happens.
MikeQuote Reply
I’m guessing that will be revealed later. If not, a lot of people will be pissed.
LordDavos12Quote Reply
Mike,
I just hate how they make Dany whine, bitch, and demand things from people and then when she doesn’t get her way she acts just like her brother did. You’d think from seeing him act that way and how petty it was shed learn not to be like him.
Hope last episode was the last episode I see Dany acting like her brother… Hopefully. Besides that I love Dany <3
ArthurQuote Reply
Can’t agree more.
EustaQuote Reply
This, let’s pay our respects for the non readers.
AdenhartQuote Reply
Steel_Wind,
no it’s in there, the last shot of the season they filmed was the 4 of them exiting the crypts.
if it pleaseQuote Reply
@ Mike – I think Dany is at her best when she has a group of loyals to lead. I’m sure when she starts freeing slaves left and right she will be much more tolerable, because she uses her “annoying fiery attitude” on actual jerks –like the slave masters. Meereen was basically Dany adapting to the Dothraki all over again, only Meereen is a real shitbag of a culture (still hated how GRRM phoned that worldbuilding in…)
I will say that Emilia’s acting just isn’t doing anything for me. I keep seeing the ACTING! gears churning in every scene she’s in. It’s not natural.
MegQuote Reply
Oh my god if this is where they’re going I would totally be ok with it.
Ye Olde WolfeQuote Reply
In the book the idea was Reek’s, in the show they gave the idea to Dagmer, big whoop. Theon allowed it in both scenarios. Also, they established that Alton is a pretty distant relative so it’s not really a big deal to me.
Ye Olde WolfeQuote Reply
Pastor_of_Muppets,
He saw a weakness in their containment and he took advantage of it. To me it was completely in character for him to do so – relative or not. Jaime is not so honroable that he would accept his own death over the cost of a lesser Lannister.
His code of honor does not extend to everyone in the realm.. He has always considered himself and his family better than (and worth more than) most others. He ceratinly would protect his imediate family, he would not cheat in a 1 vs 1 sword fight and he would not let verbal attacks on him go on challenged, bu he is not the very walking, talking, sword-fighting definition of Chivalry incarnate.
It was not about being ruthless like some have said, it was about self-preservation period.
darquemodeQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Quarth stuff is one of my favorite plot lines from this season. It gives me hope that D&D can make out something interesting even from the waste of time known as Meereen.
You should do a curtain call for the Spice King.
Alexander DubrovskyQuote Reply
Mike,
She was my least favorite story arc in the books and even though I felt they improved her last season…. this season she is far worse than even in the books.
darquemodeQuote Reply
If they don’t get around to some warg action soon, a little part of me will die. lol
But seriously, it will be the biggest letdown for me.
Gay for CerseiQuote Reply
neither a cripple. I mean, now, at least with Alton´s killing, Jaime can be rightly called a murderer with no honor, as Wic said: a “Kinslayer”. Killing Aerys, a cruel king who was hated by everyone, it´s nothing for him ( he´s just gets tired of explaining this to people and nobody wants to admit it). What he did to Bran was awful but Bran´s not dead (still awful ofc) and Aerys death don´t count for Jaime because it was some kind of justice for him. But for this one there are just horrible excuses (like with Bran). I think this change is a good change: we all know how Jaime will pay later on. He said it in this episode: if I can not do what I do, I would be nothing. Oh man, if you only knew…
Did I?
andreaQuote Reply
I’ve come to accept that the shades of gray on this show are going to be blended a little differently. They add white to some characters’ palettes (like Cersei and Tywin) and black to others (Jaime and Theon). If people are upset by this then perhaps they cling too tightly to the belief that characters are locked into a single shade that they remember at the end of ADWD. Wait until the arcs are finished, like, completely. In the meantime, the shades will always be in flux, even after a character’s death.
MegQuote Reply
Another outstanding episode, and wow those last two scenes were so fucking amazing!
As far as Jaime bein a kinslayer, yeah its a significant change, but I think they’ve pretty well established that he “could care less about what people think of me.”
And its premature to moan and groan about the Jon changes until we see how it plays out. Rose was fantastic tonight.
The one thing I am kinda sad about is that the speeding up of Jaime’s release meant that we lost Cat’s motivation of learning about Bran & Rickon, but I liked the way they handled it.
the goatQuote Reply
The Lannisters had MUCH more than just the Mountain!
Tywin is the most brilliant military mind in generations and Jaime is the best swordsman of his generation. In addition Joffrey is the biggest pratt in many generations, although I’m not sure that counts on the positives list.
The Mountain was their enforcer but hardly their ace in the hole.
All that said, Conan for his battle with the Red Viper would be okay by me too.
I think they need to change this new Mountain’s armor. Beef up the shoulders some. If they do that I will be 100% okay with this Ian Whyte guy. His voice is deep and gravelly (how I imagined Gregor’s)… he is tall enough and frankly he may be a better actor than Conan was. I’m just not sure since I never saw Conan act last season…. he just glared angrily.
darquemodeQuote Reply
darquemode,
I agree with you totally. I wasn’t saying The Mountain was all the Lannisters had. I was saying The Mountain was all the Lannisters had as far as a fantasy element is concerned.
Know what I mean???
ArthurQuote Reply
Arthur,
Tall people are a fantasy element?
HumMis1349Quote Reply
I’m coming to come out and say it: this is a stronger piece of narrative fiction than the books. Nearly every change has improved or tightened the original storyline. The books are somewhat better at establishing characters and world-building, but the difference isn’t as great as you would expect between thousands of pages and 17 hours (and counting) of television.
I’m so grateful to D&D, and hope we get to see at least four full seasons (If they can’t finish the series, I’d rather they end with Storm).
Leland’s AxeQuote Reply
I was prepared to hate what they did to Jaime. But I simply can’t ignore how wonderful that scene was. It was the best of the season and one of the best in the entire series. It seems a crime that they can’t nominate NCW’s work in this episode. It was Emmy worthy.
Tyrion PimpslapQuote Reply
Then it should be pretty obvious who’s who :|
Matt ChungQuote Reply
I’m all fine with Jaime killing Alton. I think that was the whole point of the squiring conversation. Being a squire is about serving no matter what, right? And Jaime made a bit of a deal about how good at it Alton was — at service, at being, well, a tool. Jaime was also handling his captivity pretty well, as well as possible, but underneath that there has to be some emotion and desperation. Unless they’re going to change him COMPLETELY, we know Jaime feels, and deeply. Just as he did feel regret at what he did to Bran. But he felt it was necessary.
He loves Cersei. He already threatened, in show, to kill the entire world for her. Alton might be an okay dude, but if his death can possibly get him back to Cersei, then hey, let him “serve” one last time.
Plus, again, this idea of the kinslayer being the worst at all is not something that has been established in the show, to my understanding. I think at this point we can safely say that if it ain’t in the show, it ain’t in the show… and that goes for attitudes as well. We can bring our book knowledge with us, but it should come with the understanding that not everything is going to translate 100%.
Next season, if events fall out as in the books, however, we might just find out how people feel about kinslayers, and then we can re-evaluate how best to feel about this scene.
oh-bbQuote Reply
I think we can now take anyone telling Jaime “I’ll remember that till the day I die” as a cue for Jaime making sure that day comes soon.
Ye Olde WolfeQuote Reply
I was as giddy as a school girl when Ygritte said “You know nothing, Jon Snow”
Jason BasaQuote Reply
HumMis1349,
Okay let me be more clear…
The Mountain is 7 feet tall and all muscle. He wears armor that is so thick and heavy no other man in Westeros can even lift it let alone move in it.
He gets poisoned but is kept alive, or brought from the dead as kind of a Flesh Golem
No I don’t think a tall person is fantasy. For you to even think that all The Mountain is, is a tall person. Maybe we aren’t talking about the same Mountain…
ArthurQuote Reply
andrea,
Wha? It’s okay that he pushed Bran out a window because Bran didn’t die? As I recall, Jaime was exasperated that he didn’t manage the money shot, as it were, on that one. So I’m not really sure how attempted child-murder is okay at all, since, y’know, it was only attempted. It’s not like he managed to pull it off.
He had every intention of killing Bran. And it was done with exactly the same tone and approach as tonight. Jaime saw an opportunity, felt a bit of regret, and took it anyway, because that’s how he rolls.
oh-bbQuote Reply
Not to mention the possibly headless part…..
WeirwoodQuote Reply
Leland’s Axe,
I think it’s about half and half, me, but if the show can keep this arc going, then I have high hopes for later seasons, as I’m in the camp that thinks the books take a rather sharp downward turn after book three, especially with ADWD.
Right now I think the show is doing some few things for expediency’s sake that could be done a bit better, but overall I think the narrative is tighter, and I agree with you there. I just think sometimes the book’s looser narrative actually makes for better story at this point… things are a bit rushed in the show from time to time. However, with only ten eps per season? I think they’re doing a hell of a job.
Though I think there are some scenes could have been left on the floor to expand some others. Oh well. Nothing’s perfect!
oh-bbQuote Reply
I wasn’t asking who they were. In the books Bran didn’t send them there as a gift to the Miller. In the show he did. Another poster confirmed that for me, I just wanted to see if anyone else caught it. Christ on a bike.
MegQuote Reply
I have a theory: What if Doreah has the dragons not because she betrayed Dany but because she is working with…..Barristan Selmy. What if Barristan knew what Pree and Daxos were up to and went into save the dragons and managed to get Doreah and the dragons out after Irri was poisoned or strangled? We could then attribute the massacre of Daxos’ guards to Selmy….and that Pree merely wants to get Dany to the house of the undying?
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Anyone else hope they don’t go back to Iceland next year for beyond the Wall? I know it looks pretty but it just doesn’t feel right for beyond the Wall. The whole landscape in Iceland just doesn’t give the beyond the Wall scenes the creepy atmosphere they should have. Everything is out in the open and you can see for miles all around you instead of being in a dense forest. How can you be scared of White Walkers when you can see them coming from miles away? Look at those opening images from the pilot or Jon Snow traveling through the creepy dark wintery forest when he was spying on Craster sacrificing his son, thats what beyond the Wall be like.
JamesLQuote Reply
that episode was beyond perfect.
Eugene ToussaintQuote Reply
You answered your question… WILDLING. This is what wildlings do.
Ye Olde WolfeQuote Reply
JamesL,
I agree… I was hoping D&D would shoot in Alaska. There are plenty of beautiful ice/snow mountains that also have a beautiful wilderness. I was wondering why they just didn’t shoot Jon Snow’s storyline in Alaska to begin with…
ArthurQuote Reply
Wait, is Doreah dead for sure or what? I’m watching a rerun and Daenerys kinda just wrote her off…like, “Don’t know where she is, probably dead.”
Or is that a suggestion Doreah’s up to something? I don’t know. I feel like Daenerys needs some allies left…all she has are Jorah (kinda), Kovarro, and Oldthraki.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Jorah puts on a great Jack Nicholson face while talking to Quaithe.
NEVER!
MikeQuote Reply
They aren’t in the haunted forest, they’re in the Frost Fangs, and it looks about what I expect the Frost Fangs to look like.
SyrioQuote Reply
LOVED this episode! All the changes made sense and give good motivation. Felt a bit bad that the Lannister I liked got beaten to death by Jaimie for nothing.
Also pretty clever to use the dragon theft to draw the 12 of 13 out of their heavily guarded compounds. I just don’t understand the motivation of the Warlocks to get Daeny to the HOTU.
Shock MeQuote Reply
Arthur,
I keep hoping that they choose some kind of US locale at least once to shoot something in Essos. I really wanted, for example, Navajo country to be the Red Waste. Or Moab, Utah. What a beautiful area. Drove through it once for a few days. Glorious.
…But anyway. It’s a long shot, I know, but we do have some wonderful, ethereal locations over here…of course, they’re probably very expensive places at which to shoot a TV show.
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
Did anyone dig how Roose Bolton didn’t have to say hardly a god damn word in the entire episode yet McElhatton was still able to convey how creepily awesome he is? When he looked back at Robb and ‘Talisa’ I got chills. I am totally on board with this interpretation. I also loved him in the furs, as he looked more like a Northerner than in previous episodes. I also love how they are playing up the ambiguity with his character. I keenly looking forward to his development, as it seems D and D are presenting little nuanced breadcrumbs.
As for Jaime killing his kin, I feel for some of you that think this betrays his character, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me. I was pissed with Pullo on Rome when he killed Eirene’s slave fiance, but he was still awesome regardless. I don’t think this changes Jaime’s endgame in the SHOW or the BOOKS.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Larry’s review this week is pretty funny. A friend gives him some interesting “spoilers.”
GreatjonQuote Reply
Not as good as last week’s.
Loved the Pyat Prees! Great way to make the warlocks creepy, and to make the Qarth story actually matter.
Loved Jaime.
The dialogue between Ygritte and Jon was really weak. Same with Arya/Tywin. I love those character pairings and performances, but the actual writing… bleh. Long, drawn out, clumsily written conversations. Oh well.
(Same for the conversation between Jaime and Alton. Just get on with it, fellas. But when they did… that’s how I like my Jaime.)
I, too, am interested in the public’s reaction to Theon…
ZachQuote Reply
Zach,
Yeah well….that’s like totally your opinion man! :-)
Have to disagree! But to each their own!
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
I’m just saying one scene of Ygritte making uninspired penis jokes would have been… uh… it wouldn’t have been as bad as THREE.
ZachQuote Reply
The dialogue between Jaime and Alton was perfect. To each their own, I guess.
Tyrion PimpslapQuote Reply
“We can’t run forever…”
Ye Olde WolfeQuote Reply
You need to watch “14 Blades” with Donnie Yen, that will satisfy your sword lust for a bit. Check it out. A man would like that movie.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Also, WOW at that ending music. Fuckin’ creepy as hell and perfectly exemplifies Theon’s failing sanity. Doesn’t anyone else agree? I hope S2 gets a soundtrack, too — unless that was a track on S1, in which case, please let me know which it is!
ThePinkDragonQuote Reply
I hear people complaining about a lack of purpose a lot but I don’t understand. Dany had exhausted all other avenues in Qarth (the Thirteen, the Pureborn). The Warlocks were the only other ones who had reached out to her, so she went to them for help.
I’m not complaining about the changes for the show. I think they needed to spice up her plot line for television. But her not having a purpose for going to the House of the Undying in the books? That’s just false.
WesQuote Reply
Possible.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Tyrion Pimpslap,
If it had been half the length, sure! I loved mentioning Barristan, all that. There just was no reason for it to last five freakin minutes. We only live once, people.
ZachQuote Reply
This episode was actually my 2nd favorite…
I liked all the changes. All the scenes were awesome and well done. Jon’s Storyline was my fav this episode I loved his dialog with Ygritte. Everything was awesome…
Just wanted to see Jaime kickass that’s all. That was a perfect oppertunoty for D&D to give us an epic swordfighting scene. Oh well, I still loved this episode.
My fav is still episode 5. This one falls right after that.
Can’t wait to see some Richard/Oona loving =]
ArthurQuote Reply
Good episode, but not quite as good as the previous two. A slight step down…
That being said, it had some seriously awesome scenes.
High points:
-Harrenhal looked AMAZING!
-New Gregor was actually pretty good.
-Tywin being ruthless (burn the farms and fields!)
-Another excellent scene with Arya and Tywin. They’re really nailing this storyline, in spite of the big changes. Loved the backstory of Harrenhal, Aegon and his sisters (so much name dropping, including dragons!). The Milord/My Lord thing (lifted from ADWD) was kind of neat.
-Some of Catelyn’s best scenes this season. Finally, really felt like Catelyn from the books!
-The Jaime/Karstark stuff was great!
-Loving Jon and Ygritte’s chemistry. But I was very glad when he reached for Longclaw, instead of giving in to temptation.
Low points:
-The Alton Lannister thing. I may have been more shocked if I hadn’t seen some comments here before viewing, but still… it just seemed kind of pointless and stupid. I didn’t really like his character, or his backstory, or the fact that he looked like Gendry, or the fact that Jaime killed him (seemed like a moronic escape plan), or the fact that his death totally overshadowed Karstark’s son’s death. Just seemed like a dumb change.
Lastly, I think it’s pretty obvious that Talisa IS Jeyne Westerling. She looked reluctant to go to the Crag (the home of the Westerlings) because she’ll be recognized. Also, did you see Roose looking slightly unimpressed with her and Robb’s developing relationship?
LexQuote Reply
One so seldom has the opportunity to use “defenestrator” these days. Well struck!
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Tied for best EP of the season with EP3.
I cannot, cannot wait for more Cat/Jaime/Brienne next week.
aimlessgunQuote Reply
ThePinkDragon,
It’s clear to me that Jaimie has had enough and knows that escape is best but his murder will make peace impossible on the Lannister side. He is goading everyone to kill him.
Shock MeQuote Reply
I was guessing last week that Dagmer Cleftjaw would take Reek’s role in goading Theon to kill the boys. Looks like I was right.
Remember last season Jaime said he’d kill everyone if necessary until he and Cersei were the only ones left in the world. Killing Alton to him was necessary. I don’t think he’ll regret it, only that it was for nothing.
spacechampionQuote Reply
Shock Me,
As I recall, the undying things that live in the HotU were planning to feed off of her until Drogon came to the rescue. Presumably royal blood/spirit/whatever is nice and tasty for soul sucking vampire things. ie they lured her to the HotU for a snack.
JackolQuote Reply
Another great episode, and lol at the complaints people have. Pretty much everything has been said so I’ll mention no nudity again? Those HBO execs are dropping the ball!
Also wow Sophie Turner is taller than Lena Headey!
BlackfishQuote Reply
Blackfish,
No nudity IMO is a good thing. I am so glad we haven’t seen Ros in a while. The next nudity scenes I hope are ones with meaning behind them. Not brothel scenes…
ArthurQuote Reply
My favorite epi of the season thus far.
I like the fact they took Jaime to a darker, more psychopathic place than even the books take him. And to have a scene like that juxtaposed with Cersei yearning for Joffrey to be more like Jaime merely shows the deft hand that went into writing and directing this one. The storyline changes seem to be establishing depths to these characters that television audiences will appreciate, and as a book reader I am delighted in the twists when they surprise me. I bet even GRRM likes watching his beloved creations go down roads that he’s never seen them going down before.
I can’t wait for next week.
BrienneQuote Reply
The escape scene was at night. Epic swordfighting would’ve been wasted in the dark. Escaping in the middle of the day (for better lighting) would’ve been stupid. I’m sure Jaime will have plenty of swordfighting opportunities to come. (And he certainly kicked Alton’s ass! XD)
Also, you complaining about there being no action? Wasn’t Sandor’s rescue of Sansa last week not badass enough for you, eviscerations and all? Just hold your horses until Blackwater, gah!
AoifeQuote Reply
“you’ll be glad of all the hateful things I do someday when your queen, and I’m all that stands between you and your beloved king.”
wow what did the hound mean by that
Adam RobertsQuote Reply
I am now more convinced than ever that the season 2 Lannister theme, which darkly played during the first camera-pan over Harrenhal this episode, is indeed the tune to “The Rains of Castamere”. After all, why else would Tyrion have whistled it during the first two episodes of this season?
Good episode, lots of strong scenes, but I’m still not sold on Talissa. I guess next weeks episode will likely be the make or break point for me as far as that storyline is concerned.
Tywin and Arya are getting more and more intense. Vastly superior to the Arya plot in the books. But at this rate, it can’t be long before Arya gives Tywin the clue he needs to place her real heritage.
Jaime’s escape attempt, however, was really terribly contrived. It would have made more sense if Torren Karstark had rushed into the pen while Jaimie and Alton were still fighting to try and separate them, but to just go in when Torren was already lying on the ground when Jaime had backed up, without calling for backup or at least yelling for help while going in, felt rather unbelievable to me. Also, I agree that Jaime wouldn’t have had to kill Alton. Knocking him around would have been sufficient. I don’t take issue with Jaime killing his cousin if it suits his purpose, but in this case, it was unneccessary.
CrispinQuote Reply
I think there is more than just guilt in Theon’s look at the end. It is a look of realization. It is like everything he has done has finally sunk in. Invading the North and beheading Ser Rodrik didn’t phase Theon, he said himself that it is all just a game (almost giggling). Ser Rodrik’s last words ring true, Theon is truly lost. He finally just figured that out in the fading moments of that episode. Beautifully done.
ToastQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
I won’t lie, your thoughts about Jaime having too much of a conscience or even more accurately honor to commit kinslayer actually pointed out the only thing that i could actually find unsettling with what i think was the best episode of the series, kinslaying is a huge deal in Westeros, even more than kingslaying (according to what people think, the gods think, lol), Jaime actually being a stand up guy in his own way is a huge part of the irony of how people view his actions especially his actions surrounding the “I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act”quote
however after a quick google search i found that its only considered kinslaying if its a close relative, which allows him to sadistically bond with his cuzo before smashing him in the face with a rock & keep what honor he has left
it would b interesting to see him trying to explain this to Brienne lol
Eugene ToussaintQuote Reply
Lex,
Yes on Roose Bolton, see my previous post for further extrapolation on that matter.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
i miss Great Jon Amber ((((
KibQuote Reply
Jared,
So Cat draws a sword… Will she free the King/Kinslayer or, substituting for the Goat, take away his sword hand? I’m betting on the latter. It’s too early for Cat to harbor the kind of motivation that would allow her to free Jaime. I think she’ll free him in Episode 10.
Ser Jon FalstaffQuote Reply
Ser Jon Falstaff,
she can’t take his sword hand away b/c that would or at least should basically make it impossible for him ever ever possess any positive feeling for Sansa, Lady Stark, Brienne or any1 associated with her
Eugene ToussaintQuote Reply
I think it still works if Cat releases him now, b/c she knows Jaime is probably not gonna make it through the night or until Robb gets back. If Jaime dies, then the chances of getting Sansa and Arya back alive are slim, and any possible peace between the Starks and the Lannisters would go down the toilet.
Although if Cat releasing Jaime next ep happens, I’m wondering if/how they will include Robb (book spoilers/show speculation) beheading Karstark. Maybe he makes an attempt on Catelyn’s life after she releases Jaime?
AoifeQuote Reply
Ser Jon Falstaff,
I hope not. Taking Jaime’s hand is more of an episode ender, whereas the scene with Cat and Jaime already ended so cliffhangery this episode that they’ll probably not be able to wait to resolve it until the end of next episode. In fact, I hope that that scene with our beloved Kingslayer should in fact be the “cut” of this season, although whether it’s the goat or someone else remains to be seen.
I mean, Cat can hardly expect the Lannisters to deliver her daughters unharmed to her if she sends them “spoiled goods” in advance.
CrispinQuote Reply
“Where did you find this beast?”
“poor old dead Ned”
“What was the name of that bastard he fathered?”
“Brienne.”
“No, that wasn’t it.”
Bowing at Jaime right now.
the goatQuote Reply
Do people really not remember that Catelyn asks for Brienne’s sword in the book too? And guess what, she didn’t cut his hand off. The episode 8 synopsis says “Robb is betrayed.” I’m guessing the betrayal is Cat releasing Jaime.
Tyrion PimpslapQuote Reply
For those that can, you should check out NCW’s reaction to his scene where he kills Alton. That’s the kind of reason I like this scene. When I finished reading the second book I hated Jaime Lanister. I thought he was a giant piece of shit. I did enjoy some aspects of his personality but I was really wanting him to die. When he became a POV in ASoS I was not even sure I wanted to be in this guys head. Obviously, after reading them I grew to love his character and his chapters but what made that transition so sweet and memorable was because it was so drastic a change in feelings toward this guy. From hate to love. I was missing that in this show. I already loved Jaime going in so there was no transition for me. Adding him kill Alton brought me and especially non book readers to a place where we can feel real hatred for this guy. If D&D do right by him later on I think that will be a fantastic transition to see again. It will be more riveting to see this if the hatred is deeper. I can honestly say that if he had killed Cleos Frey in the books like this in book two it wouldn’t have shocked me at all. And I still would have loved him after books 3 & 4.
DanQuote Reply
Loved everything with Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, and Jamie this week.
I’m even ok with Alton (aka Cleos) dying because Jamie isn’t all that fond of him in the books anyway and it was easily one of the best scenes in the season if not the series. Guess it’ll just be Brienne and Jamie on their journey.
Sansa kinda annoyed me in S1 as she did in the books. But these last few episodes with Sansa are amazing! I’m on the San/San bandwagon. I’m a little disappointed we haven’t seen Ser Dontos since episode 1… Shae is annoying me less. Hope it keeps up.
I wish they would have built up Bran & Rickon’s deaths a little bit more. That final scene seemed like it was over in 30 seconds and didn’t have as much of an impact as it could have.
I’m a whole lot more ok with the changes to Dany’s storyline now than I was last week. Still wish they didn’t kill off Irri. (Bullshit… It is known) The scene where Pyat Pree killed the rest of the 13 was really good. I’m looking forward to the House of the Undying next week.
I’m not ok with the changes to Jon Snow’s storyline. It seems like he’s not going to get his conversation with Quorin Halfhand where he is encouraged to join the wildlings if captured. I almost thought Jon was going to nail Ygritte a season early… Jon’s storyline in Clash of Kings was fantastic… and better. I wish they weren’t messing with this one. :( I do enjoy some of the banter with Ygritte (I wish she’d accused him of not knowing where to put it) but it’s gone too far. Maybe they’ll redeem his story a bit in the next week or so. Glad we’ll get to see Rattleshirt next week though!
I’ll give this episode a 4/5. Would have been a 5/5 if they didn’t screw with Jon’s story.
IcebirdQuote Reply
“And gag him!” That was my favorite line from last night. (From Catelyn Stark)
moiQuote Reply
I would be surprised if Cat cuts off Jaime’s hand next episode. Surely we’ll get the great Brienne/Jaime sword fight next year or maybe the end of this year. Plus in the preview it sure looked like Jaime was released.
DanQuote Reply
I figure this is what will happen with Jon’s story for the next episode.
Qhorin is also caught by the Wildlings, which you can see a very brief glimpse of in the preview. Ygritte has already said that they would cut Qhorin’s head off if he was ever caught, but that Mance would definitely accept Jon into their midst. Therefore I think that Jon and Qhorin are tied up together at some point and Qhorin will whisper to Jon to do everything they ask to get close to them, then they’re thrown together in a pit to fight to the death, where Qhorin will probably have another chance to emphasize his point.
DutchDrunkQuote Reply
They really like moving their favourite conversations forward don’t they. I was a bit disappointed to hear Jaime dishing out some of the best convo lines he has with Brienne at Harrenhal in book 3 to Catelyn. I suppose it’s not too bad, considering the second half of the hot tub convo is the best part.
Yay for some SanSan.
Really liked the Quaithe scene as well. Little changes like this work very well. Most of the bigger ones don’t.
Figured that they’d make the dragons a premise for visiting the House of the Undying (as stated in a previous post), entirely unnecessary, but Pyat Pree’s assassination of the 13 was pretty cool nonetheless.
Was impressed with the epic beard of Rickard Karstark, nice to see that they are actually capable of presenting some less modern looking people.
I really like Daenerys’ Qartheen dresses as well. Probably the only element that they’ve managed to capture from the ‘otherwordly feel’ of the Qarth of books.
Didn’t *hate* any of the scenes, which was good.
About as good as episode 2 which for me was the best so far.
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
About Catelyn/Jaime:
In the book we all know that her motivation to release him has to do with her ‘losing’ Bran and Rickon, and making sure she at least gets her girls back. In the show this news of course hasn’t reached her yet, so I think her motivation now will be two-fold. She still wants her girls back, so she makes him swear the oath in the next episode. But her second motivation now seems to be to keep the peace.
In the books, Karstark was with Robb, so the trouble didn’t start until they came back. As stated in this episode, there will probably be a lot of trouble if Karstark doesn’t get to kill Jaime. That’s why she’s releasing him now, to make sure Robb still has a united army to come back to.
DutchDrunkQuote Reply
Wow, I really enjoyed this episode. Things have diverged so far from the books now that it’s more like watching a really good fanfic. When Ygritte said “You know nothing, Jon Snow” I may or may not have emitted an audible squeal.
Know what I liked best? Lots of horses NOT cut out of scenes, like the hunt for the Stark boys, and Jaime’s capture. The whole episode seemed much more real and less like play-acting on a set, and I really think it had a lot to do with using horses in all of the scenes where there logically needed to be horses. It’s funny what a big difference that makes to the whole look and feel of the episode.
But hey, what’s with the whitewashing of Smiler? (Okay, I’m just going to apologise for that joke right now and save us all some time.)
LuanaQuote Reply
Brilliant, brilliant episode. And that ending! OMG. If I ever meet Ramin Djawadi, I’m giving him a great big kiss just for the music score over that last Winterfell sequence. Palpitant, tragic, and with an unbelievable sense of fragility, a truly masterful piece of scoring.
Though the Kinslayer changes hurt a little – mainly because I’m such a devoted Jamie fangirl – I completely understand why they did it, and rather like it.
1- It brings back Jaime’s character with a bang. A drama filled scene not easily forgotten.
2- It makes Karstark’s need for revenge against Jaime much more plausible, and defensible, than the books.
3- It returns to Jaime an agency that’s been taken away from him in his imprisonment. It reminds the audience that this is a dangerous man, one that should neither be trusted nor underestimated.
4- It gives Catelyn more reason to release him once she hears about the death of her boys. If she believes his life in Robb’s camp is no longer safe, much better to release him and hope for her daughters in exchange, than have him die at the hand of a Karstark.
5- It makes Jaime’s future transformation, and the effect Brienne has on him, much more poignant and powerful, now that we’ve witnessed him brutally murder a pathetically doting character like Alton, in cold blood. It will provide for a stark dramatic contrast to future Jaime.
6- the visceral emotional impact of the scene alone was worth it.
I did NOT like the fact that they changed and butchered Jaime’s convo with Catelyn. That is my favourite chapter in all the books, and the adaptation did not do it justice. This is the only reason I, perhaps harshly, scored this ep a 4 rather than a 5.
I completely endorse the changes in Qarth. For the first time since her early chapters in AGOT, I’m finding Dany’s arc interesting, and I thank D&D for it.
Everything else was gorgeous. Performances tonight were flawless on all fronts. Pacing, tension, drama, writing…etc were all wonderful.
Special mention goes to David Nutter who is, imo, the best director GOT has had so far. I really hope he comes back next season to direct a lot more episodes.
RemaalQuote Reply
I’ve never read the books, but i don’t think those burnt bodies were the boys of winterfell. Or atleast i hope they weren’t
ericaQuote Reply
Actually yeah, the Kinslayer bit is quite against Jaime’s character.
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
I think Jaime’s conversation will have a part 2 in the next episode. As I don’t think the reason for Cat asking for Brienne’s sword will be to cut of his hand instead of the Goat later on, nor release him since you can’t chop through a chain with steel. He’s going to swear the oath, so the conversation can continue.
DutchDrunkQuote Reply
He told Robert she married Drogo.That led to the first assassination attempt.
freoduwebbeQuote Reply
I also, am very worried about the failure to mention the chain.
NotoriousPYGQuote Reply
Oops, sorry. I stand corrected.
Now that I think about it, for me the peak of Dany’s story (after hatching her dragons) is House of the Undying. After that, there is much promise (I kept expecting big things to happen, but nothing came of it. Her chapters in ADWD were such a let down.)
DreamlifeQuote Reply
Dreamlife,
re: “The Bad: The Dany stuff was boring and frustrating. ”
Yeah, but think how much more static it was in the books. Essentially at the end of book 1 she is an über fantasy woman, but for book 2 she hangs around in Quarth and has a hallucination in the House of The Undying. Quarth is a cool city, but thee changes are giving way more drama and motivation for her, in all that happens. Plus I agree with the recap, Pyat Pree is so cool and creepy. But still, Irri and Rakharo :(
StrepsiQuote Reply
Good episode.
This year instead of sexposition we seem to be getting a lot of Tywinsposition. And man, that alone is one hell of an improvement.
Maxwell JamesQuote Reply
I really don’t understand how people can be that upset about Irri’s death =/
She’s a very, very minor character in the show and the books. In the show Doreah has way more to do, and in the books Irri barely says anything more than “It is known.”
Sure, she’s been with Dany for a very long time, but she never had too much to do for me to really miss her or anything.
Someone like Missandei is far more interesting in Dany’s storyline, although it’s much later in the story of course.
DutchDrunkQuote Reply
Not liking Jaime’s murder of his relative. In the books he never liked Cleos, whom he viewed as weak, but he wouldn’t have killed him just to get someone’s attention.
VirtusQuote Reply
Emilia’s acting is the only thing that is saving the total frustration associated with GRRM’s decisions about the direction of Daeny’s storyline. Tyrion’s storyline in Essos suffers the same way and doubly so because so far their paths do not intersect. To a certain extent Essos is even problematic for Arya’s storyline.
Shock MeQuote Reply
Why didn’t Jaime and Alton come up with a better ruse (maybe based on the book-version escape plan) so that poor Alton would live? (And could be later killed by dad Karstark, triggering the ASOS plot.) Why?
I also didn’t like the handling of the Bran and Rickon plot. D&D needlessly put too many hints. Not a single soul on the TWOP boards believes that B&R are dead.
Apart from that, it was a magnificent episode. Can I haz a show consisting only of Tywin&Arya and Jon&Ygritte scenes? Pwetty pwetty please?
ETA: I loved the change in Cat’s motivations. For all the bad that D&D did to her character, this episode they got redeemed.
NotoriousPYG,
yeah, count me in as worried about this. They don’t even have to show this, they can have simply Davos speaking: oh crap, now we can’t go back if bad shit happens. And it happens :D
Black LionQuote Reply
Dialaouges where great, amazing acting indeed. It’s nice that the TV viewers got some history lessons from most of the charactars today.
The Qarthian coup was a nice twist. Also the end of the episode was very well done.
But damn, I’m really not happy about making Jamie a kin slayer. I mean, he might fall out sometimes, but he’s not evil as he comes out in here. I think it was unneccesary. Also the new Jon storyline seems useless. I don’t see the point.
Does anybody have the soundtrack name of the ending?
Tomer SegalQuote Reply
Pastor_of_Muppets,
I got the same vibe from Jaimie as you did. He finally decided to roll the dice when the opportunity arose because either way he knew he couldn’t lose. If he lives he fights another day. If he dies he strikes the single greatest blow left to him.
Shock MeQuote Reply
Yes, that occured to me watching the ep. Maybe they the producers couldn’t find a way in which they could afford showing the chain, so they removed it from the Blackwater plot. Or maybe the chain will appear on the show as being an old forgotten King’s landing defensive tool that hasn’t been used in a long time, until Tyrion decides to put it to use again… or something like that.
I hope it’s not been cut. It’s a rather significant part of Tyrion’s accomplishments while acting Hand.
RemaalQuote Reply
Great episode for me. It seemed like everyone was slowly going insane and being honest at last in those moments. The Bernard Herman goes Westeros end music underscored that.
Can I just say how beautiful the woman looked in this episdoe? Rose, Oona, Lena and Michelle in particular. As one I appreciate seeing non plasticised natural attractive women on screen.
Seemed the same to me. I think this was the most dialogue we have heard from Sandor so far. I think the actor tones down his natural Scottish accent for dialog beyond RAWR!
Perfect episdoe if for the want of more Varys, Pod and KLB? Where are those guys?
Ser Lemon CakesQuote Reply
Dan,
I always loved the retreat scenes. Especially when they split up and the rock climber climber Stone Snake doesn’t make it despite his skill.
Shock MeQuote Reply
oh and also, it would have been much more cooler if they made the whole last scene more beliveable. just make all the viewers sure that the kids are dead.
Tomer SegalQuote Reply
Not as good for me as last week, but still many shining moments. I want to rewatch it again because I was distracted and had trouble hearing all of the dialogue. Quick hits are:
• I loved Shae trying to protect Sansa, chasing down the other handmaid with a knife. When Shae first saw the stain and realized what it meant, and her first reaction was ‘help me flip the mattress’ I was all “YAY SHAE!” I didn’t like Book Shae much, but Show Shae is growing on me!
• The Arya and Tywin exchanges continue to be priceless. Those two could do a one act play together, the Tywin and Arya conversations, made up solely of their conversations at the table there.
• Ygritte and Jon are priceless too, and I love Ygritte expanding Jon’s mind by giving him a little ‘reality check’ about “who lives where, and who owns what land, and what gave them the right to put up a wall?” By the expressions on Jon’s face he is started to rethink all he ever knew, or else he is very constipated.
• Tyrion and Cersei and the poignant conversation in the bedroom. Wow. I think Tyrion almost wanted to hug her, but was sure he’d get punched for trying. I could feel Cersei’s pain.
• For discussion for the book readers – when *I* read the books, I always felt like Theon couldn’t find Bran and Rickon kind of on purpose. I felt like he wanted to let them get away, and so when they were difficult to find, he used the orphan boys on purpose, for a dual purpose, to save face with his ironmen, but also secretly to let Bran and Rickon get away. He’d never admit to it… But that was the vibe I got. Did anyone else every get that vibe?
purplejillyQuote Reply
LordDavos12,
As awesome a scene as it was to get the unsullied, it pissed me off because it would take so many more ships to get them all back to Westeros.
Shock MeQuote Reply
I really love the scenes betweeen Arya & Tywin, maybe the best added scenes.
And Dany’s story got interesting too, the various Pyat’s killing the 13 was very cool.
You know nothing Jon Snow, Ygritte got the spotlight.
EmersonQuote Reply
I loved everything on this episode, except for Jaime killing Alton. That was just dumb and feels like change for the sake of change instead of something well thought out. And I liked 90% of the stuff they changed or scenes they have added that weren’t in the books.
TimQuote Reply
purplejilly,
I never really had that feeling. To me Theon knew exactly what he was he was doing, trying to save face so he could hold Winterfell until his sister could bring more men.
The show does give me way more of a feeling of Theon being ‘lost’ and still very torn compared to the books, so what you describe would be more believable in the show, but not from the books.
DutchDrunkQuote Reply
I don’t really agree. From the books it seemed that Theon just wanted to reestablish his authority at whatever costs. The longer the hunt dragged, the more anger he was brewing. I think Alfie is a genius and I blame D&D for the sloppy scripting. In the books Theon is so internally furious and helpless when Reek comes up with his plan that I completely bought that he could kill B&R if he found them.
Black LionQuote Reply
Liked:
-Ygritte. Such a lovely woman.
-Tyrion/Cersei moment
-Sophie Turner seems to be way more comfortable in her role.
-Luwin’s cry of despair in the end
Can’t decide yet:
-Ducksauce being part of the kidnapping of the dragons and whole coup with Pyat Pree. It’s a huge change from the books.
Disliked:
-Changes to Jon’s story. While I love the banter between Jon and Ygritte, I could have waited a bit longer for all that to happen. It’s pretty illogical that both Qhorin and his men aaand Ghost just leave poor Jon all alone in the wilderness. And that Jon can’t track footprints on snow to find them.
-Jaime’s escape. So now he is also a kinslayer? Seems to me it was added just make it more shocking. I don’t mind the change from the book, but at least do it properly and not half-assed. Having Torrhen Karstark as a lowly guard was silly and having Jaime kill his kin was beyond retarded. I guess we now know why they did not have Cleos Frey in series. Killing a cousin would have been too dark and apparently that’s the only way Jaime can escape…
FlourideQuote Reply
Zach,
I agree with you on the Jon/Ygritte and Arya/Tywin dialogue, but I thought Jaime’s convo with Alton was excellent. One scene of Ygritte teasing Jon is fine, but three repetitive scenes of juvenile taunting? I hope they throw a bone regarding Jon’s warging and give the Halfhand suitably badass future scenes, as well as explaining his reason for letting Jon execute Ygritte.
As for Arya/Tywin, I think it started out a bit awkward with having her eat and such. The first half of that scene was really straining my suspension of disbelief of how Tywin would actually have conversations with his nameless cupbearer. But I loved the way they integrated more Targaryen backstory into the scene with Arya admiring Visenya, as well as Tywin noticing Arya’s too proper “my lord” which immediately reminded me of Roose’s conversation with Theon in ADWD. Watching the Arya/Tywin scenes is almost like a guilty pleasure, because it’s new material and strains believably, but the dynamic between the two characters/actors is brilliant.
In the Jaime/Alton scene I really liked that they emphasized Jaime’s love and talent for fighting and his desperation to escape a situation he is clearly unsuited for. And it was great to hear more about how badass Barristan is, remind viewers of his existence, and add a bit more back-story to Jaime’s early years. As for his murder of Alton, I’m mostly alright with it as far as Jaime’s character at that point after being imprisoned for so long. It’s a distant relative, as the synopsis helpfully points out, Jaime doesn’t even remember him at first (the scene played out so similar to his scene with Jory in S1), and Jaime would do anything necessary to get back to Cersei. Just roughing Alton up a bit to bring the guard in would be more reasonable, but that doesn’t exactly have the shock value we got, does it? And Jaime at this point is not exactly reasonable or the kind of person to do things halfway. I agree with others who have said he was done with being locked up, and intended to either escape or die in the effort.
Frost NocturneQuote Reply
Arthur,
Although Alaska, or even parts of Canada, would be a great location, it surely has to come down to budget. Iceland is a short flight from Eire and the UK. Even their Mediterranean locales are relatively short distances away when compared to North America. More budget on actors and costumes and CGI, less on travel.
Talon LannisterQuote Reply
They might not want us to see them dead or watch them be killed but they didn’t even show them being captured. And why would whatshisface care whether Luwin was present? Were they guarding his sensibilities too?
Eric FitchQuote Reply
Hoo boy – are you trying to make this site blow up? :-)
Yellow DogQuote Reply
Great episode.
SEVEN HELLS with some of these changes. Some of them are refreshing but some are annying. :)
rolleQuote Reply
Dead On. I said it last year: Jaime is a shit. He’s a shit in the books (yes ALL of them), he’s a shit in the series, he’s a shit.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
oh-bb,
yes, yes, that’s exactly what I´m saying. I have no morals. In fact, I urge everyone to throw children out of windows. It’s fun (not the same if you just paralyzed them).
andreaQuote Reply
Rose Leslie is stealing the show – she is too damned good for her own good! The chemistry between Kit and her is absolutely delectable and, to my mind, very much boosts his performance. What a delight.
Dany’s scenes…not so much. Qarth is a serious fail in my book, one which not even the disarming Iain Glen succeeds in redeeming. It’s like the more they try, the worse it gets. I hope season 3 shows a change for the better.
LanaQuote Reply
I’m really hoping they’ll show Jaime’s telling of his side of the story of how he became Kingslayer. Whether he tells it to Cat or anyone else is not important at this point, but we really need to hear his side of it. It’s essential, even crucial, to our understanding of his character. I really hope they show it, if not this season, then perhaps next year.
RemaalQuote Reply
my GF, who did not read the books, totally fell for it! and I let her fall.. very enjoyable
Jack SlapQuote Reply
For the last time, I’m not objecting to Jaime’s killing Alton because I romanticize Jaime and think he’s a prince among men, I’m objecting because it doesn’t make sense – either from an escape-logic point of view (all Jaime needed was something to bring Torrhen Karstark into his cage so he could kill him (perfectly in character!) AND from a character-centric point of view. Yes, Jaime is a bad guy who kills and defenestrates people during the commission of other crimes such as treason and incest. I understand that. But Jaime has never struck me as a guy who coldly plots the murder of someone while buttering him up with flattery so he’ll come close enough to be murdered. I said that was Tywin-esque, except that it isn’t even that because Tywin wouldn’t kill someone he didn’t feel he had to. And there was absolutely no reason for Jaime to kill Alton.
Yes, he had that nice scene with Jory remembering the siege of Pyke last season and then stuck him in the eye with a knife, but he didn’t discuss Pyke just to get Jory to come closer for the eyestabbing. One thing didn’t follow immediately upon another so I didn’t feel like Jaime had plotted Jory’s death while talking to him.
And from a plot perspective, I think this is also a silly and wasteful development. We’re all talking about Alton Lannister’s death, not Torrhen Karstark’s so Lord Karstark’s thirst for vengeance is less visceral seeming because the really shocking death wasn’t his son’s. Having Alton live to aid Jaime’s escape could have made him one of Karstark’s targets and then he could have killed Alton in revenge, which would in turn give Robb a reason to execute him. As it is, I suspect Robb will kill Karstark for saying nasty things about Jeyne/Talisa and/or Catelyn and that’s just not the same motivation for Robb either.
Jaime is my favorite character in the books, and the show leaves me in the weird position of loving the actor they cast for the role but either hating or being indifferent to all of his scenes. I never thought I’d look forward to Theon’s scenes more than to Jaime’s but there you have it. And I have to confess, I’m a little afraid of what they’re going to do with Jaime’s story next season.
GonfaloniereQuote Reply
Whoa. Never considered that. Well done. I like it.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
Another fantastic episode, though a little less action oriented than last week’s.
What I loved:
- The Kingslayer. His speech about vows, Aerys and his remarks were breathtaking. Don’t think he really considered Alton kin, if he was like a cousin his family wouldn’t sit that far away. Loved the brutality of the murder and the convulsions of the victim.
- Pyat Pree. In the books he was just there, doing some retarded dance. In the show atleast, Qarth is a lot more interesting. The only thing that could potentially conflict with the book’s larger storylines is Xaro Xoan Daxos’s small role in book 5.
- Alfie Allen…has he been nominated by the GoT producers voor an emmy? He has been absolutely outstanding as the fallen Theon Greyjoy. Luwin’s cry was indeed heartrending.
- Ygritte is just like I imagined her. For some reason I always imagined her pretty, because well, who imagines ugly girls outside of Brienne? Hope Halfhand will battle Jon.
- Dany telling Jorah the way it is. Apparently and fortunately she doesn’t really believe all that much in her screaming threats.
-Harrenhal in all it’s vanished glory!!!
What I didn’t like:
- no Bronn
BlaatQuote Reply
Still not buying that Jaime would very calculatingly butcher his young, admiring relative. Was a great scene, and Nikolaj nailed it, but fuck…
Also, Roose Bolton looks badass in his furs.
And Dagmer looked evil as fucking hell at the end there.
Jaime LannisterQuote Reply
Not as good as last week, but a great episode nonetheless. My thoughts:
- Jon Snow/Ygritte scenes were great, but I felt like they took up a bit too much time this episode. It seemed like almost every other scene was Jon Snow and Ygritte, and while their dialogue is fun, there will be plenty of time for their relationship to develop down the road. No need to cram it all in one episode. Not worried about the Qhorin ultimatum getting axed, it’ll definitely happen.
- JAIME! A full dosage of Jaime this episode and it was awesome. My only complaint is that the Jaime/Alton scene seemed to drag on a bit, though the acting was fantastic by both of them. Not a huge fan of Jaime killing Alton. Jaime was interesting because although he did some reprehensible things his intentions for doing always had a noble quality. I.E, he threw bran out the tower to protect his sister/lover, he killed the King he was sworn to protect to prevent genocide etc. Not that distraught over it because in the book he never really cared for Cleos and desperate times call for desperate measures.. but still. Even with that gripe, I have to say NCW totally stole this episode.
- BRIENNE! A small part in this episode but she was awesome. I like Brienne much more in the show. She nails her part so well and is going to give me more of an appeciation for her when I read the books again. Loved the tease between Jaime/Brienne.
- LORD KARSTARK! Not much to say here, just happy that he is in the show as I don’t remember him being cast and he’s a character that could have easily been written out. He also looks almost exactly like I imagined him. Side note: Where’s the Greatjon? I guess he couldn’t make it this season. Hopefully he returns next season.
- Qarth in the show is BETTER than the books. Way better. Way more exciting in the show and a great way to keep the bookreaders on their toes. Pyat Pree is way creepier than in the books. RIP Spice King, I hate Pyat Pree just for killing him. Curtail call for the Spice King!
- Cersei is definitely being made more sympathetic. They did this a bit in the first season too, but even more now. I don’t mind it. I found Cersei interesting in the books but I also found her to be one of the most unbelievable characters. In the books she came off almost as a cackling Saturday morning cartoon character. I think this interpretation is superior and far more beleivable. Side note: the show seems to be making the Jaime/Cersei incest more common knowledge or at least acknowledge more by the main characters. I.E., its not a danced around subject like it was in the books.
Getting tired of writing at this point so I’ll just throw in a few shoutouts: Sansa, the Hound, Catelyn, Theon and Luwin were all also fantastic this episode. Can’t wait to see more Davos/Stannis/Melisandre, Asha coming to Winterfell, the realm’s reaction to Bran and Rickons deaths, the resolution to Jaime/Catelyn’s scene and the house of the undying.
VanderhookQuote Reply
Am I the only one that find weird we have not seen Pod yet? they cast him and everything, but nothing but a blink and you miss it mention in episode 2
FerQuote Reply
Loved the Tyrion/Cersei scene. Yeah, they are trying to make her look more human, but I don’t buy into it. I thought Tyrion was going to try to hug her, poor halfman. Love Ygritte! Love Jaime saying, “Is that a woman?”. LMAO.
Jen@House StarkQuote Reply
By the way, Rose Leslie’s line delivery of “You know nothing, John Snow” was absolute perfection. The venom with which she spit it out turned a silly catch phrase into an insightful comment on Jon’s character this season.
Rose proves, yet again, that stellar casting is this show’s strongest asset.
RemaalQuote Reply
Remaal,
I agree. Ygritte is mind-blowingly awesome.
Damryn of DorneQuote Reply
Fer,
I find it pretty weird that they went to the trouble of casting Pod and then he’s been pretty much entirely M.I.A. the whole season. Didn’t the actor give an interview where he talked about Pod’s relationship with Tyrion? What happened? Or is it all smashed into the last three episodes?
It’s going to seem kind of out of nowhere if Pod saves Tyrion during the Blackwater unless he gets a lot of screentime in the next episode or something.
JQuote Reply
i really did like that one,the darkness from jamie is well not really what i did expect,but hey they nailed it.
TheFrozenKingQuote Reply
I like this episode in summary more than I did actually watching it. I don’t think it was as strong as last week’s episodes, but we’re clearly set up for some fun in the next 2…er 3 episodes.
I like the Jaime changes, his desperation is more believable this way, reminds us what a dangerous man he is (and when Brienne repeatedly puts him in his place, reinforces what a badass woman she is!) and sharpens the whole Karstark thing.
What I didn’t like was Cat appearing to “free” Jaime before finding out the latest news from Winterfell. I’m hoping that what we’ll see next week is that they didn’t free him, but have hidden him, but as soon as word comes from Winterfell, she’ll react accordingly.
It’s entirely possible that Robb won’t be returning to the camp this season. He could spend the rest of the season at the Crag. I think it would be really cheap and rushed to have him show up in Ep. 8 already being married. Considering their entire relationship has been just about glances thus far and the writers are clearly invested in showing us more of Robb & Jeyne, I’m hoping “Robb is Betrayed” not only refers to Cat & Jaime, but perhaps to Jeyne at the Crag, maybe they try to capture him when they were supposed to surrender, and in the process he’s wounded and Jeyne “takes care” of him
All the people worried about Qhorin & Jon, remember the line from the finale summary, “Jon Proves Himself to Qhorin”…that should be all the confirmation you need that they’ll meet again under dramatic circumstances.
With the Qartheen changes it really does seem like House Of The Undying will be in the finale. I was hoping for earlier, but that appears to be the “Strange Place” mentioned in that summary. Since Doreah didn’t show up with Drogon, there will likely be much discussion and discovery in Ep. 8 and we’re all presuming Ep. 9 won’t have anything but the Blackwater. I still think it would be really cool if the D&D decided to take Dany to Asshai at the end of this season, it would be a major change but I never understood why Dany never even considered it.
For a reaction from a non-reader to the ending, my wife responded to seeing the burned boys at the end with, “that’s not them…right?” “that’s can’t be them, it’s not them…right?” “I don’t think that’s them, it can’t be them…right?” So seems like a very effective ending to say the least.
MichaelQuote Reply
LordStarkington,
If you think about it, it would make sense. Why would they trust just any man to guard The Kingslayer. Surely they needed a high northern lord/lordling who wouldn’t be tempted by Lannister gold.
I don’t really mind the change from the books but I felt this was a change they didn’t need to make. It makes Catelyn a ‘good’ character in the TV show instead of how GRRM intended in the books. All the characters have flaws, and Catelyn’s was loving her children so much she cost Robb the war(and his life).
I like the change north of the wall somewhat. The show needs to show Ygritte’s importance to the storyline so it made sense to bring her in from the start. I’m just worried that they will remove Halfhand’s ‘order’ to Jon and let Jon reach that conclusion himself which is not something the principled Jon Snow would do on his own. I love how Rose Leslie plays Ygritte though, perfect.
I love the change in Qarth. This part of the storyline in the books were quite show and mystical so it adds a lot more spice to Dany’s story. Can’t wait for Arstan to show up!
I still hate the changes to Robb’s story. But I’m not going to complain about it as long as the show brings in the threatening song “Rains of Castamere” well later.
Arya’s story had to be changed. Too many characters in the book and they needed to include more Tywin in the storyline than there was in the books.
The Red ViperQuote Reply
I don’t like the Jon changes, either. Where is Ghost? He’s a such an important part of Jon, and his relationship with the wildlings to be cut out like this.
Wall CrawlerQuote Reply
Not sure I believed a single word Jamie said to Alton. It was all a lure to bring him in close for the kill and then the attempted escape. All that nonsense about him being a bad squire sounded quite like a lie to me. Just another manipulation by a Lannister.
MichaelQuote Reply
I have two thoughts on Dorea.
1. She escaped with Drogon (I only saw two tails in that cage) when the shit hit the fan & is hiding, biding her time till it’s safe to bring Drogon home. Dany & Drogon go to the HOU & burn that MF down & bring back her babies……or
2. She is one of the three deceptions & has been promised fame, fortune, maybe Daxos promised to make her his queen. What were the three deceptions, once for blood (the blood maege in retribution for the Dothraki slaughtering her people) once for gold (Dorea is the inside “man” helping Daxos & Pyat Pree steal the dragons after being promised wealth & possibly a kingdom) & love……Mormont? or a love later to be revealed.
What are your thoughts?
Laura T.Quote Reply
Hahahaha!! You’re a bad man, Jack Slap!
EdQuote Reply
I understand they have to make changes from the book, but don’t create silly things. Why did the guard go in when he could have just poked a stick through the cell to see what had happened to Alton Lannister. I know the Starks make silly mistakes but come on…haha
Also why was Jon taking Ygritte back. He knows Quorin will just kill her so why not just let her go…like he did in the book which makes more sense. And the tv Jon appears to have no relationship with his wolf at all.
Also not really gonna be much of a relationship between quorin and Jon now as they cut that rather short. So not gonna be much of an impact when the meet again, unless ghost will save him and he can get back to quorin and continue their mission.
StephenQuote Reply
Awesome! Totally agree! Here here!
EdQuote Reply
He seemed to be using her as a taste tester, without her knowledge. He had just complained about the “assassination attempt.”
I agree I really didn’t like the dialogue.
MegQuote Reply
Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome.
EdQuote Reply
Stephen,
yeah honestly the only changes that have me bugged out a bit are how they handled the Jon Ygritte Halfhand part. I mean the dialogue between Jon and Ygritte were great but I am worried about losing the impact of Quorin knowingly letting Jon let Ygritte free and knowingly telling Jon to join them knowing it means his death. That is huge and hopefully will not be lost.
Drewr15Quote Reply
I posted this towards the end of the open chat, but since people are still bitching about Jamie being a kinslayer I’ll repeat it here.
I think it’s a common theory that the “little brother” who is prophesied to kill Cersi, isn’t Tyrion but rather Jamie. By the time the last two books are out, Jamie being a kinslayer might not be as out of character as you think.
Either way Jamie doesn’t “change” until he meets Vargo Hoat.
ErikQuote Reply
QFT.
@WIC: You need to do it.
Gregory KeltonQuote Reply
That’s very interesting, I had not considered that.
What about the Tullys, Tyrells and Martells?
EdQuote Reply
So, where the hell has Ser Dontos been?
Tyrion4LyfeQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
Iagree.
Until I see Pyatt Pree WITH the dragons I will not believe he has them. I can easily accept the warlocks stealing Dany’s dragons, but the single man carrying the dragons off is not how I picture the warlocks handling the dragons post-theft!
Like I said last week, I htink it is entirely possible it is Whitebeard (Selmy) who has made his way to Qarth to protect who he sees as the legitimate heiress to the Throne and to become a member of the Queen’s Guard.
Pyatt Pree attempted to have Dany’s Khalassar killed off and to have her dragons stollen, but the lone hooded figure we saw swept in spoiling the theft, killing the theives and assassins, and taking the dragons to a place of safety.
Pyatt Pree then swoops in to take advantage of the situation while he can and says that he has thee dragons at the House of the Undying (despite his theft attempt having failed) in an attepmt to lure Dany to HoU.
That’s how I would have played it to re-introduce Selmy since they will not be able to hide his identity like in the books.
darquemodeQuote Reply
I think I must have shouted at the screen and stood up clapping at least half a dozen times!
Tyrion and Cersie’s scene- Tyrion slowly walking toward her as she cries, somehow wanting to comfort her, she looks at him in apprehension, him turning his head away to avoid her gaze…perfection!
Jamie and Alton-this was totally unexpected and I found myself seething as Jamie bashed in Alton’s head-it’s always the little guy getting shit on in Westeros…I guess it happens everywhere, which made it all the more believable, well, and because Jamie is such an ass at this point. Kudos NCW, excellent acting!
Arya-I’m not sure where they are going with the Tywin/Arya scenes, no lord would speak to a mere cupbearer so openly, nor allow her to eat at his table, but I do enjoy the dialogue and will wait and see how it all pans out.
Cat/Brienne-Love, love , love both actresses! They are doing such an awesome job. The look in Cats eye’s as Jamie hurls insult after insult and truths that really cut! Gag him indeed! Brienne looks like she wants to rip his head off.
Ygrette/Jon-liked the playfull dialogue, but didn’t think they needed that many scenes worth of it. I have to say, though, I jumped up in glee clapping and shouting in happiness when she uttered her famous sentence!
Hound/Sansa-honestly still don’t get the whole San/San thing to this day, but I still had a smile on my face during their interaction for all those fans out there. To me the Hound came across very much like the book character in this scene, hateful/slightly (and I mean barely, as in the book) sympathetic.
Sansa’s blood scene-beautifully done, just as I imagined and this is the first time I liked Shae. I am starting to see where they are going with her character now. By the time D&D are done with the viewer, we will like Shae and feel remorse for what Tyrion ends up doing, I guarantee it.
Handmaiden of DanyQuote Reply
It will be interesting to see what motivates this whole change in making Shae Sansa’s handmaiden. I’m also wondering how Shae’s ineffective threat of the anonymous handmaiden may expose her true loyalties to Cersei, and how Shae’s growing bond with Sansa may possibly motivate the souring of her secret relationship with Tyrion in things yet to come, especially once Tyrion is forced to betroth Sansa. Who knows, this may all play into Cersei’s schemes for revenge in a different way than the books.
persephone88,
Joe SnowQuote Reply
I think you did see Pyatt Pree with the dragons, from behind in the episode they were taken. yes “a single man” did it, a single man who has demonstrated his ability to split into at least 10 other men.
If it was Whitebeard, taking the dragons would a bad way to get on Dany’s good side. Why not just wait there for her to return. and what was that tower the dragons were being led to? Whitebeard’s secret Qath tower he kept all these years? It just doesn’t make sense for it to have been Whitebeard who took them.
Or maybe I just don’t want to believe in an introduction of whitebeard that leaves out Strong Belwas.
ErikQuote Reply
Meg,
Excellent observation Meg, I didn’t even think about using her as a taste tester! He also knows that she isn’t who she says she is so he needed to see if she could possibly be trying to assasinate him.
Handmaiden of DanyQuote Reply
Arthur,
I can understand what you’re saying, but I never looked at The Mountain as High Fantasy as I read the books honestly. He was just a big mean brute of a knight that did the Lannister’s biddingbecause he enjoyed hurting and killing people.
I did see Gregor as something more than normal in ADwD when he seemingly becomes Ser Roberrt Strong… but at that point he was not the Lannisters really either.
darquemodeQuote Reply
For me this is a no-brainer. YES! All the episodes I’ve loved have been the ones where they took the most risks/made the most changes while staying true to the overall story. All the episodes that have been “meh” for me are the ones where they tried to stay too strictly to “this is how it is in the book”. D&D have really hit their stride, and I think they have more confidence because they are turning out GREAT work that is very true to the source AND allows for book fans to be surprised.
So, in short, YES, GoT is better when D&D “go off script” (so to speak).
Gregory KeltonQuote Reply
LOL!! Well, since you just posted it without the Spoiler Tags it’s kind of a moot point.
EdQuote Reply
a HA! That makes perfect sense and is fitting with the kind of cunning Twyin is capable of. It also fits with him having figured out that she is not just some low-born girl (I don’t think he just figured it out from “my lord”, that’s just his way of letting her know that he knows.)
MikeQuote Reply
purplejilly,
I agree 100%. In the book Theon has a realization about where they are after looking at the Stark pin. To me that ensures that he did, in fact, know that they were in the crypt and knowing this he decides to let them be.
KingthlayerQuote Reply
You know,
Sometimes I forget just how amazing this show is. The acting is great, the sets are beautiful, the production is top notch, the writing is intriguing. While watching each episode you can just sit back and be transported into the world of Westeros. D&D truly have done a great job at bringing this book saga to life on the TV screen. We all sit here and nitpick and bitch and complain about tiny little details. But overall, 98% of this show is truly epic and wonderful. It really sucks that it is almost over already and we will have to wait a whole year to see 10 more episodes. I am starting to get angry that there is only 10 per year… Again I am GREEDY!!!
There is nothing else like this on TV. What am I going to do? Sucks…..
ArthurQuote Reply
Ok, here’s my new theory. Sorry if someone else already came up with this but I can’t read 427 comments.
Since Jon never let Ygritte go, he doesn’t have that as evidence of his waivering loyalties when he has to convince the wildlings that he is coming over to their side. So he’s going to have to sleep with her right off the bat to prove to her (and them) that he’s turned. At the end of this season. That seems to flow from all of the heavy banter this episode. After Qhorin tells him to go undercover, of course! (still can’t live with that being cut)
Just a thought.
KalasinQuote Reply
Kalasin,
They are going to have Jon kill Qhorin, no dount about it. Maybe it wont happen exactly like the books but make no mistake Jon will kill Qhorin… It will be a very tense and sad scene.
ArthurQuote Reply
I’m probably the only one who feels this way, but I thought that (show) Ygritte was so damn annoying I was wishing Jon would just punch her in her perfect teeth.
MetalgoddessAMBQuote Reply
Wonderful post. I agree 100%.
EdQuote Reply
Agreed! I have done my share of complaining/ worrying…,BUT, it is the best show on tv! Absolutely brilliant! the actors and writing are top notch. I eagerly wait for Sunday to roll around to be transported to this fantastical world. Dreading the fact that in 3 weeks from now, a year will need to pass until season 3- ugh! Waiting will blow…..enjoying the ride for now!
WinnieQuote Reply
I think they should have written the mountain out of this season (easily done really) so that could get the original actor back for season 3/4.
StephenQuote Reply
Ian Whyte is just fine and not nearly as skinny as people are making him out to be. He’s pretty built. And his voice rocks. It doesn’t sound like there was a happy split between Conan Stevens and production, so I doubt we’ll see him again. No big whoop, Gregor’s not a big role.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
Arthur,
I don’t dispute that. That goes side by side with my theory. I think they both happen.
KalasinQuote Reply
Arthur,
Actually I don’t think it will be that sad as they have not built Quorin up enough, nor have they built a significant relationship between Jon and Quorin. So the impact will be limited i think. This might very well be a big mistake in story telling. Hopefully something is coming we have not thought of to clean it up.
StephenQuote Reply
Jordan Healey,
Jaime is not a kinslayer for killing his cuzo, kinslaying is the killing a close relative (Immediate family) according to wikipedia
and is also supported by the fact that Jaime could have easily killed his cousin in battle if his Frey father decided to support his family instead of his wife’s family. If that would of happened he would not be a kinslayer. If Jaime met Tyrion on a battle and killed him, regardless of the situation = Kinslaying
in a world in which Houses are constantly sending daughter off to other Houses, it would be far to easy to commit kinslaying if killing un-immediate family counted
Eugene ToussaintQuote Reply
Ours is the Fury,
but it is a big role
SeVvQuote Reply
This may have been why he spent so much time trying to identify Alton’s mom. I took it as him trying to get a handle on just how distant this cousin was so that he would be distant enough to kill w/o it being a kinslayer problem.
MikeQuote Reply
Please, does anyone know the ending song?
Horea MQuote Reply
Mike,
sounds about right, I mean I am with everyone else. If what he did counted as kinslaying, he character is basically ruined b/c it truly make it difficult to almost impossible for anybody (specifically Brienne) to ever see anything good in him.
Kinslaying is worse than kingslaying, its like the thing the gods curse you the most for and actions in view of the gods play a huge role in how people are seen and who they actually are in the series, especially in the Frey’s downfall
Eugene ToussaintQuote Reply
It’s an original song from the season two soundtrack. The soundtrack will be released on May 29th. You can pre-order it here
.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Hodor was cracking them and handing them to Rickon.
Johnny RenoQuote Reply
It took Catelyn five episodes to travel to the Stormlands and back.
It took Littlefinger three episodes to travel to the Stormlands, and then to Harrenhal.
It took Theon five episodes to travel to the Iron islands and then Winterfell.
It took Ser Alton Lannister one episode to travel to King’s Landing.
WHY HAS IT TAKEN HIM FIVE EPISODES TO GET BACK? Perhaps the Ep2 scene with the Small Council discussing Robb’s terms should have been postponed a couple episodes.
Also thinking that Sansa’s Florian (Ser Dontos), should have been introduced by now, or at least done in the next episode. Else she’ll have no reason not to escape King’s Landing with the Hound (if they don’t cut/change that scene)
JuanQuote Reply
i’m starting to get a strong feeling that Dagmer is Ramsay…
DavidBCQuote Reply
The time between the episodes is not constant. Even in the books Martin has said that one of the reasons he doesn’t give exact distances and time-frames is that he doesn’t want people getting hung up on stupid shit like this.
Dontos could show up next episode, or not until next season and Sansa doesn’t go with the hound because he’s a drunken creepy guy who scares her.
ErikQuote Reply
…yes. Ramsey Bolton left the dreadfort and has been posing as a low level iron-islander. All as part of his brilliant plan to get into Winterfell. Because he knew Theon would come home and that things would play out this way.
Some of you over-think these things.
ErikQuote Reply
Erik,
Roose knew that Theon was being sent home.
Theon got the idea to attack Winterfell from Dagmer.
Dagmer has been filling all of Reeks parts from the book…
It could be an interesting way to throw book readers off…plus the actor has that Ramsay look…and looks a lot like Roose.
DavidBCQuote Reply
I think the biggest problem here is that the actor looks WAY too old to be the son of Roose.
MikeQuote Reply
DavidBC,
Ok, but even if Roose knew Theon was going home, how would he get Ramsey to the Iron Islands before Theon arrived? How would Ramsey pass himself off as an Ironborn? How would he ensure that Ramsey ended up on Theon’s boat? How would he know that Theon would listen to Ramsey and not just follow his fathers orders?
There are just way too many variable for this to have been a plan.
ErikQuote Reply
Dagmer’s actor is older than Roose’s.
There’s the red light, right there. Please stop with the Dagmer = Ramsay Snow theories. >.<
Jaime LannisterQuote Reply
An off hand theory about Jon and Halfhand.
What if Jon is captured and joins the wildlings, and in the last scene cuts down the Halfhand to prove his worth. There is no conversation between the Halfhand and Jon. The entire talk of the off season would be whether Jon has actually betrayed the Nights Watch. The truth could be told next season in backstory but it would make for some memorable tension as the possibility of a Stark bastard being a betrayer would drive a lot of reaction.
I know nothingQuote Reply
Erik,
You underestimate the abilities of Ramsay Bolton. He is a master manipulator!
Roose couldn’t gaurantee any of this would happen, but he is smart, hates the Starks, and wants to be Warden of the North… So he would take a shot and see how things worked out.
Also, Ramsay could have been imbedded in Robb’s camp already…or maybe the distance just doesn’t matter…considering Theon got to Winterfell rather quickly.
DavidBCQuote Reply
How does Robb going to the Crag mean Talisa is Jojen/Meera?
Dreamlife,
EricaQuote Reply
The biggest miss of season 2 for me has been Dany’s wardrobe. I get the Dothraki garb and I love the elegant dresses (like at Xaro’s garden party or whatever) but what is with the weird mix she’s been wearing the past 2 episodes? It’s like she puts on the Qarth version of a child’s party dress over her Dothraki pants. And I love Margaery’s dresses, so it’s not as though I’m put off by things being a little different fashion-wise, I just think they keep missing with Dany.
JillianQuote Reply
If it worked out that way I wouldn’t think “oh wow roose is more clever than I thought.” I would think “oh wow that’s some pretty shitty convoluted writing, worthy of LOST.”
ErikQuote Reply
The key to Talisa’s story is: the first amputee. If she wasn’t a banner woman of the Lannisters, how did she know that boy was a simple fisherman?
Like the changes to Qarth et all.
Can’t wait for Joffrey to get his full measure GoT’s version of justice.
More wolves, please.
Northern WarriorQuote Reply
DavidBC,
I am EXTREMELY doubtful that this could even be a possibility. NO WAY. That would be the stupidest change ever and entirely unbelievable. SERIOUSLY.
Handmaiden of DanyQuote Reply
I don’t think this is true…but i’m having trouble finding age information for Michael McElhatton.
DavidBCQuote Reply
I agree, I think it is Ramsay. And if so then excellent! Also he appears more clean shaven than the other iron born that we have seen.
payneteQuote Reply
Erik,
I think it is much more likely that Dagmer Cleftjaw was given some of the lines and actions of Reek and that Reek’s later actions will be accomplished next season by Ramsay/Reek himself.
Shock MeQuote Reply
Here Here! Ramsay should be a young 20′s in age at MOST, and this Dagmer looks too old to be Roose’s bastard. Agree with your premise.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Juan, you’re thinking way too hard. You’re gonna ruin the show for yourself. Just relax and enjoy it.
EdQuote Reply
Arya: “Have you met many stonemasons, my Lord?”
Tywin: “Careful now, girl.”
EdQuote Reply
Might a woman add how much this episode ROCKED!!!???!!! Wow, had to watch it twice to really absorb everything…it was packed with everything you could possibly want, except no Jaqen. Oh well, maybe next week.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
I think that would be neat as long as whatever the flashback was, you saw it happening in the episode, even if you didn’t get the details. To clarify, Halfhand and Jon being left alone, for example, at some point where we cannot hear the conversation. Add in some meaningful only in retrospect conversation when they fight — it needs to be something believable afterwards. But it would be very cool even for someone that knows what is going on.
AlanQuote Reply
Hmmm. What I got from that scene in the books was Theon accepting Reek’s plan to kill the miller’s boys and dress them as Bran and Rickon, not that Theon or Reek had any idea Bran and Rickon were hiding at Winterfell. If he had even suspected that, he would have torn Winterfell apart looking for them. Why let them live if they could pop out and expose him as a coward and a liar?
No, Theon deserves no slack on that. Don’t let your sympathy for Theon based on what happens to him later blind you to what a monster he is.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
Not a chance in seven hells. I don’t care how good Shae is to Sansa – and I see nothing that is not self-serving so far – that filthy bitch’s lying testimony at Tyrion’s trial will ensure her death inspires nothing but cheers.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned all that much,
Looks like D&D have grown out of their “Sexposition” stage and evolved to a much more clever and meaningful way to tell back-story (Arya and Tywin conversations). I really enjoy this kind of dialog. From the 1st few episodes maybe a false alarm went off in my brain with all the Ros scenes. I am so happy she hasn’t been in any scenes these past episodes. There was no really legitimate excuse to use her (other then to show breasts). Everything we needed to know about Joffrey/Littlefinger could have been done in a much more clever way, without Ros. Also, with Jon and Robb on the crest of their new relationships. It wont be long before we can have some meaningful romantic sex scenes (True Blood style). And that by itself will be a big improvement.
Overall, this season is starting to unfold and come together as a very good season. Just as good as season 1. The few minor concerns I have had have been taking care of.
My concerns were;
1). Ros… At first it looked like she would be getting as much scenes as the major characters and D&D were going to pickup right where they left off on season 1 with her. Using her to show nudity and pushing the boundaries of sexual content on TV shows. But that wasn’t the case. I can live with her being shown every so often, would much rather her be killed off though.
2). CGI… I thought D&D would give us really awful CGI with the “budget” excuse. Not the case, the dire wolves and dragons look amazing.
3). The Mountain… Yeah I liked his voice too. The scene with Tywin was good and he seemed dark and evil. I just wish they would give him some shoulder pads or something. He just looks very narrow-shouldered and not like the beefy, muscle packed Mountain I always imagined.
4). Not having the Reeds (Meera)… With every episode that passes I am growing more and more confident we will see the Reeds or just Meera. Osha is awesome and I love her but Bran needs his friends. By this time in the book (Bran and company leaving Winterfell) Jojen and Meera have already helped Bran and explained to him how to consciously warg. Since Osha has not explained any of this to Bran, yet at least, I am confident they are leaving all the “Warging and Greendream” stuff for the Reeds (Meera) to explain.
These are just my opinions. I know a lot of you disagree and do not like what I have to say. Sorry if this bothers you but I just wanted to express my thoughts with fellow book/TV series fans…
ArthurQuote Reply
Yellow Dog,
^this
NotoriousPYGQuote Reply
Alan,
I dunno – this show has never done a single flashback, and I don’t see them starting now. Besides, I think the fact that Jon is under orders is important to the development of the story and character. I think having it uncertain will alienate the lage number of non-book fans who are already really iffy on Jon. He has to start doing something right. Plus, turning him into a potental villan, while it may be in line with the show overall, is very contrary to his character and the way his story is told. I think it would backfire, personally.
KalasinQuote Reply
persephone88,
You actually see the “Miller’s boys” (farmers in this one) being herded into a building just as Theon arrives at the farm. You just know what’s coming…
The scene with Cersei and Tyrion (with Cersei crying) actually happened in ACoK, so that’s sensical. Even better, because the look Tyrion gives her is priceless.
Liz B.Quote Reply
What I really love about this episode is how the title “A man without honor” and theme touched on just about every scene. Unlike last week where the title loosely fit the theme of the episode, this one works on so many levels.
Start by looking at Jaime Lannister. He gave up on the noble idea of honor a long time ago. Too many conflicts by following the code arose from it, and conflicted completely with his view of right and wrong while watching what the Mad King was capable of. The day he shoved his sword into the Mad King, he threw out the book of honor. Killing the king he swore to protect meant his death, he accepted it. He didn’t try to run and hide the fact he did it. He was proud of his decision and it felt like justice, regardless of the consequences to him. The fact he survived to serve King Robert probably shocked him, for he had already accepted his fate. He would play along, but from then on there were only two people he would truly protect, his brother and sister. That was the honor he would live by for the rest of his life.
Now Jaime the captive has been begging for death. Last season he pleads with Catelyn to grab a rock and repeatedly strike him until he was dead. She wouldn’t oblige. Earlier this season he mocks Robb in hopes to make him angry enough to kill him. Robb thinks he is threatening Jaime with Greywind, but really Jaime is inviting him to do it. He gave up on his life a long time ago, death would be better. Jaime doesn’t kill Alton so he can live, he does it so he can die. It was his way of forcing the issue, he had no illusions he would actually escape. But he had to create the illusion so someone would finally kill him.
Then we can look at Theon Greyjoy. Raised by the Ned Stark in the hopes of influencing him into being a honorable man. But the Greyjoy’s have their own idea’s of honor, and a culture that fits their lifestyle. Theon is trapped between how he was raised and how his culture expects him to act. In trying to balance the two sides, he is destroying both. He has lost himself, unlike Jaime who many view without honor, Jaime knows who he is and what he holds important. Jaime still has honor when it comes to his siblings. Theon is grasping for an ideal that is in complete conflict. He wants to be honorable and good to his subjects as Ned Stark. He wants the love and praise of his father that Yara receives. The hunt for Bran and Rickon is another example of how destructive the two ideas are when you try to combine them. The Iron Men see him as weak, the folks left at Winterfell see him as a turn cloak. He is truly lost, as is his honor. Only by deciding who he is, will he be able to find honor again.
Next let’s take a look at Joffrey Baratheon. Even though he wasn’t in this episode, he was very much a part of this episode and is truly “A Man without Honor.” For Joffrey, honor is for other people, not for him. He is the King, he is not bound by honor. He commands and others are honored to obey, or so he thinks. Cersei, Tyrion and the Hound all realize this about Joffrey. They also recognize the danger Sansa is in. The Hound has pledged to do what he can to protect her. Cersei is giving her advice to help her cope, just as Cersei had to cope with the situation she was in. But what are Tyrion and Cersei going to do about Joffrey? The root of their power flows from this bastard who thinks he is Robert’s heir that has no honor. A kid who takes pleasure in being cruel to others. It’s the classic finger in the dam problem. To remove the finger means the destruction of the dam. You can’t repair the dam without removing the finger, and the dam may still break on its own anyway.
And last there is Jon Snow. Now by no means do I think Jon Snow is a man without honor. But I include him in the list because this is the first time we see his honor being tested with ideas by those who honor means nothing and survival means everything. They don’t call someone king out of any code of honor, they call him king because they chose him for a king. Jon grew up equating honor to being a good person. His Nights Watch brothers have demonstrated to a point that there are still good people who don’t follow his strict code of honor. Now he will have to decide about those who completely reject his code of honor. What will it mean if he finds there are good people among the Wildlings?
Anyway, since the elimination of the essay thread I’m posting a short one in this thread.
fuelpaganQuote Reply
Solar,
I think it’s pretty much established that Jaime is capable of just about anything.
Killing a king he is sworn to defend.
Sleeping with his sister.
Pushing a child to his death to conceal the above incest (failed).
Attacking the Hand of the King.
Why should he flinch from killing a distant cousin who means nothing to him?
He is a cold blooded killer with an honour code somewhat different from that held by many around him – i.e his own.
That’s what is so good about him.
Later,however…
zerowolfQuote Reply
There was a Sansa flashback last night :oO
LordDavos12Quote Reply
I actually like the outfit she was wearing when confronting the “spice king” in S2E6. It reminded me of Egyptian garb (from antiquity).
Tyrion4LyfeQuote Reply
The best season 2 episode so far.
Great acting, great theme, great pace.
I just loved it!
The RabbitQuote Reply
Yellow Dog,
I disagree – I just don’t think GRRM would have put the Stark pin in the chapter if it did not have a specific purpose (making Theon think that they are probably in a place that’s important to the Starks – the crypt). There is always a possibility that I was wrong but that part really stuck out to me because I couldn’t really figure out why the pin would make Theon know where they are but it really only makes sense to assume that he figured out where they are.
KingthlayerQuote Reply
random stuff:
– mountain defo needs shoulderpads, i played a gnome in world of warcraft for 6 years and believe me, armor+shoulderpads will make everyone look bigger and more ‘badass’ (for the lack of better word), no matter how small or thin you might be ;p his voice is just awesome though
– i like tywin+arya stuff but i think they’re overdoing it now, if things continue like this, next episode he will adopt her. enough is enough
– no chain ;/
– ygritte is such an annoying bigmouth, she wouldn’t STFU. love her ;p
– say what you will about jaimie but nikolaj was just amazing
– loved the qarth scenes. did the assassination of 13 happen like that in the books? so glad i rushed thru them sometimes ;p
– is cat gonna cut jaimie’s hand?
– final scene, holy fuck. if I didn’t know what happens i’d shit my pants big time
jkbQuote Reply
At first I agreed that the changes weren’t necessary, but after talking to my girlfriend and my female co-workers (I converted them all to fans of the book and series) I realize that they are all in love with Jon Snow and were really looking forward to seeing a love story develop with him in it. Think it is smart for the show to develop a love story to keep the female audience engaged. The changes won’t effect any of the outcomes and I kinda like the actress they picked.
Derpstradamus,
RonQuote Reply
I think the decision to have Jaime kill a relative, even a distant one, was a mistake on the part of the ‘forTV’ writers.
My impression of Jaime has been that he has his own non-traditional code of honor. Not the typical code of honor which would bind him to blindly obey order’s and/or vows. His slaying of the mad king was a moral decision to save thousands of Kings Landing residents from genocide. His personal code seems to allow him to make decisions to rebel against a vow and/or order for what he considers the greater good. Despite how despicable his shoving Bran out the window is, he was ultimately a father who knew that if news of his incest were revealed, the lives of his children would be put into jeopardy. He knew saving them would be no easy task either as King Robert constantly demonstrated his bloodlust by never relenting his hunt for the lives of the last Targarean children. Imagine how King Robert would react to knowledge of the incest. I can see how knowing this would drive a man/father who considers himself honorable into such a vile crime as attempting to kill an innocent child.
But to kill a relative, even a lowly one, as part of a stratagem for freedom seems to breach his code of conduct as I interpret it from the books. This whole part sits badly in the pit of my stomach. As I got to know Jamie through the chapters and by the end of the fifth book, I was able to mostly justify his actions, and accept him as a heroic character with a murky past. But now, and with GRRM’s concent, Jamie is shown to arbitrarily use the life of a relative enthralled with hero worship, for his own selfish desires, this just disgusts me. By allowing D&D to portray Jamie in such a way I wonder if we have accidently seen GRRM’s ultimate intention for the Jamie’s character in the last few books. That at the close Jamie truly has no honor and will end up an unredeemable villain at the end of the song.
SLIMQuote Reply
Yellow Dog,
I understand where you are coming from, but I think they are going to make Shae more of a victim in the show. Like she had no choice to do what she did in order to live. I agree she is hateful in the books, but I am seeing them building Shae differently here.
Handmaiden of DanyQuote Reply
Did anyone else think the farm was a bit too modern? Nineteenth century or newer, if you ask me.
Reverse NielsenQuote Reply
He didn’t do it for freedom he did it for death. He would rather die than be a prisoner. Cat and Robb refused to kill him, so he is trying to force them into killing him by escaping. It was a dumb plan in hopes of actually escaping, but a pretty good one to get himself killed.
fuelpaganQuote Reply
This is a strange one…
All season I’ve been loving the episodes as they are, yet at the same time being torn towards wishing they stuck closer to the books.
This episode is a prime example… loved it for the most part, many excellent scenes, and I personally love the changes to the Dany storyline. However – I’m not so sure about Jon’s story. Yes, Ygritte is fantastic, and yes, we have been given some valuable time to build up her relationship with Jon, but seriously – Qhorin NEEDS to ask Jon if his sword is sharp at some point… I’ve never known one short word to give such goosebumps as “sharp” did on my first read through.
Also… I’m a little bit concerned by the promo for next episode that Weasel Soup may not be in!! (although it does look like Tywin is on the march, which bodes well for the Blackwater, but we could really do with Roose heading for Harrenhal asap).
Praise R’hllorQuote Reply
The attempted murder of a child wasn’t definitively enough to qualify for the title of cold-blooded asshole, eh? Also, JL doesn’t really impress me anyway. For all of his talk, I didn’t see him cut down any truly great knights/fighters at any point in time, and Brienne made him look like a fool to boot. Victarion would annihilate him. He’s the poster child for spoiled brats who wasted a load of potential.
BloodwrathQuote Reply
I thought Sansa asking the Hound why he’s so hateful seemed odd since he’s been either silent or nice to her. It’s like she read the book. I suspect something was lost in the final cut.
WebgQuote Reply
LordDavos12,
That was a dream of something that already happened. It wasn’t new information. I don’t really see them having Jon dream a whole conversation he supposedly had a season before just as a way to get it in later.
KalasinQuote Reply
Also… no Varys for 4 whole episodes now.. what the fuck is up with that?! I was anticipating loads of screentime for him this season, as would reflect the book
Praise R’hllorQuote Reply
Clob,
That was my thought. There has to be a piece where Jon is ordered by the Halfhand to go in with the Wildlings. I can deal with many of the changes to the story line, but to change that one would be bad indeed.
Dave in DCQuote Reply
Did they have extra scenes in the DVDs for Season 1? Do you think they’ll ever create DVD versions with extra scenes? I suspect some things were left out during editing that could help the story.
WebgQuote Reply
Bloodwrath,
It is implied that he won several tournaments.
He never saw battle because the Mad King kept him close as a hostage. Which is why he would rather die than be a hostage again. And Brienne beat him after being stuck in a cell for several months unable to train and given just enough food to survive.. You can’t claim Jaime was in top form during his fight with Brienne.
fuelpaganQuote Reply
This is just a guess but I’m pretty sure Dany will be (somehow) saved by Barristan Selmy at the House of the Undying in next episode. The way he was reminded to the viewer in Jaime’s speech seems too big to be a “coincidence”
AshaïeseQuote Reply
Now that would be one change I could not accept, even worse than nicening-up Cersei. I wish you were wrong, but I’m afraid you’re right.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
I watched it with two new viewers and they both nailed the ending straight away. They recognised two kids running around in that holdfast(or whatever) and correctly guessed, or rather knew, that Bran and Rickon are safe. Disappointing. Was it that obvious in the book as well? Remember thinking they were dead.
JoohnsonQuote Reply
That entire Qarth story line is made up for the TV show, it has almost no relation to what happens in the book. :)
The Thirteen are not the rulers of Qarth, they do not get assassinated, the dragons do not get stolen, etc.
morbiczerQuote Reply
Alex,
Well, Larry is an idiot after all.. so why not?
JamesQuote Reply
I thought the reason Jaime killed Alton rather than just injure was he didn’t want to leave the Starks with any Lannister’s prisoner. He does everything he can to get himself killed when he fails at escaping. Alton would have just slowed him down escaping, and he wouldn’t have the opportunity to kill him after if he failed.
I’m not liking the changes, but I’m going to try to focus on the positives. I will say that I think Arya and Tywin is starting to get stale for me though.
Rose Leslie is a perfect Ygritte, so I can understand why they wanted to rework Jon’s story to get them together sooner. Nickolaj was great, as was Alfie.
Third episode in a row without Ros!
LeufQuote Reply
So interesting that you read it so differently. I saw the pin as a cloak pin that Reek got from the boys’ rooms, so they could dress the miller’s boys as Stark children. I don’t remember anything that implied the pins came from the crypt. If Reek knew they were in the crypt, why not just drag them out? Why the charade? I also don’t remember anything that implied Theon knew where they were, just that he grasped Reek’s idea of using the Stark cloaks and pins to disguise the miller’s boys as Starks.
However, I failed to re-read ACOK before the second season started – now I’m going to have to read it again, even more slowly than the second time last summer.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
Webg,
D&D have stated that they really do not have any “deleted scenes” to speak of and likely will not as the series progresses. The filming schedule is so tight that they use what they film and only film what they need.
I guess there could be a few scenes that were edited for time… but I doubt there are many. I would not mind an extended scene or two in the BD/ DVD sets!
darquemodeQuote Reply
Yellow Dog,
good points all – I may has misinterpreted it as your reading makes good sense
KingthlayerQuote Reply
Kingthlayer,
I never liked Theon from the start and quickly grew to hate him, so I always interpret everything to his detriment. Even after ADWD, I still think he hasn’t suffered enough.
Yellow DogQuote Reply
fuelpagan, nice essay! I’m not 100% convinced that Jaime really would kill someone so coldbloodedly (he’s a killer but a hotblooded and impulsive one, IMO) but you certainly provided a thoughtful alternate interpretation of the scene.
I’m guess I just disagree that Jaime has such a huge deathwish at this point – doesn’t he want to live to get back to Cersei? I often find myself wishing TV Jaime would get the TV Theon or TV Cersei treatment (which is something I never thought I’d say.) Theon and Cersei are villains but they’re complex and complicated and I have a lot of sympathy for them, though not for their actions. In contrast, throughout the course of the TV series, I have lost the sympathy and liking for Jaime that I came in with from having read the books. I’m hard-pressed to think it’s NCW’s fault, because he is a good actor, so I have to blame the writing.
I spent so much time fulminating about the Jaime-kills-Alton scene that I forgot to say that while the vows speech to Catelyn was the point in the books where I first started to think there was something more to Jaime than pure black-hearted villainy. The TV version just didn’t work for me at all, perhaps because it was split between two seasons.
Leuf, the Starks have thousands of Lannister prisoners, so why would leaving Alton alive have made a difference? Besides, I’m sure Lord Karstark would have been happy to kill Alton after he (apparently) assisted Jaime in killing Karstark’s son. So either way, Alton dies.
GonfaloniereQuote Reply
Leuf,
Interesting take on Jaime’s scene… I suppose that could be possible.
I took it more as Jaime knowing that Alton was supposed to be under Stark protection as an envoy or messenger. By attacking him, he forced the gaurd to open the cell. In the immediate chaos after Jaime killed Alton the guard did not think to call for help or more Stark bannermen… he just opened the pen door to see what was wrong with the messenger who should have been kept safe.
So he knew that the chaos might allow him to escape and if not his recapture may get himself killed. Thus ending any leverage the Starks have over his father. If he is dead, the Starks canot use him against Tywin, Cersei or Joffrey.
darquemodeQuote Reply
I agree. I’m just hoping against hope that she’ll receive a raven with the news of Bran and Rickon’s deaths before she releases him. I need that to be part of her motivation.
RemaalQuote Reply
Yellow Dog,
Likewise.
I do enjoy disliking him though unlike some characters I just dislike and dread reading about.
I had a thought during my last re-read of the books. Wouldn’t it be just like the cripple, bastard and broken loving GRRM to make Theon The Prince who Was Proomised or Azor Ahai? He has literally been reborn both in salt (baptism that made him a true Ironborn) and smoke (Winterfell’s sacking results in him being reborn as Reek). Although he does not fall into the ancestral line of Aerys and Rhealla like the wood witch foresaw.
darquemodeQuote Reply
Joohnson,
I definitely think it was pretty obvious in the show. I haven’t heard of a single non-book reader yet who didn’t get it. I don’t remember how I felt in the books but I think I knew because of a spoiler I’d read. But it definitely worked better in print.
KalasinQuote Reply
If that’s true, why did Robb put him in Jamie’s pen in the first place? Yes, they have a lot of prisoners, but they must have other minor noblemen in captivity. Why not swap one out for Alton? From a military perspective, wouldn’t you want to keep your go-to messenger from exchanging information with your most valuable prisoner (unless you’re listening in on their conversations)?
Nagga’s KinQuote Reply
Nagga’s Kin,
Oh I agree.
Obviosuly it was not a logical or wise decision as hindsight proves out.
I think like most people they assumed he would be safe with “family”….. even if it was distant family.
I am not real clear on my code of conduct with regards to messengers in Westeros. I could be wrong.
darquemodeQuote Reply
Thanks.
This really goes back to the Mad King. The Mad King used him as a hostage during the rebellion and I really think Jaime would rather be dead then be in that situation again.
If given a choice Jaime would choose to get back to Cersei. He only left in the first place because Tyrion was in trouble. Tywin forced Jaime to attack the Riverlands instead of going to rescue Tyrion. But I think Jaime would choose death over being a hostage. You can see the sense of relief on his face when Catelyn points the sword at him.
As I said in the essay, he accepted death a long time ago. That’s just a part of being a soldier. And there is no reason why he would think he would live after killing the king.
fuelpaganQuote Reply
LordStarkington,
I didn’t hear it myself, but it was probably “only two more episodes until the season finale.”
Lord of the OakfortQuote Reply
This “nicening up Cersei” was in the books, she actually kisses Tyrion on the cheek in this scene… and he remarks that it is the first time she ever kissed him.
I think we are getting a nicer Cersei and a meaner Jamie in order to make each of their flips seem more drastic.
DavidBCQuote