Episode 19 – Blackwater – New Viewer Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

So what did you think, newbies? The penultimate episode of a season always includes a few game-changers. Discuss the episode here without fear of spoilers, while We Do Not Sow provides his thoughts below.

Spoiler note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask all the series veterans to refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or otherwise. This show is best viewed without knowing all the surprises beforehand, so please be respectful of your fellow fans. Thank you!

We Do Not Sow: Halfman! Halfman! Halfman! That was awesome! Great battle scene and the wildfire scene was phenomenal. I realized the wildfire was on the boat right when they said there is only one boat. It might just be my favorite scene this season. Tyrion, what a great idea! And it was executed perfectly. Wow, I can’t believe I was even rooting for the Lannisters. The first thing I have to say is Peter Dinklage was certainly born for this role, he is amazing. Hopefully, he only has a flesh wound, because I don’t know if I can take losing him from my Sunday nights.

I really enjoyed the standoff between Bronn and the Hound right before the bells rang. I was really hoping they wouldn’t fight considering I like both guys. I have liked Bronn since he first appeared and I didn’t come around to like the Hound until the last few episodes. But the more the Hound has to say, the more I like him, and I really liked the “fire element” in his story and now being afraid of it is like his kryptonite.

So now we have Starks all over the map. This is crazy. Robb is leading his northern army into battle, Jon wandering with wildlings beyond the Wall, Sansa and the Hound leaving King’s Landing and headed north, Arya accompanied by Gendry (and hopefully Jaqen and the fat boy) headed home as well and the two young Stark boys hiding under Winterfell.

In the end you see Stannis getting pulled back by two men. I am assuming they are his men and pulling him out of harm’s way, but he is still on the wall so who knows if he will be captured, killed or even rescued by a shadow figure. I am guessing that Davos and his son are toast, but stranger things have happened. When they showed the ships burning and Stannis getting ready to lead the men off the boat you could hear all the screams and groaning of the men burning in the water. It sent shivers down my spine, but I also did feel bad for Davos, I was hoping for a little more from him.

In battle, just like in sports, there should be the three stars. My three stars of the Blackwater battle are Tyrion Lannister, Tywin Lannister and Bronn. If I could I would give it to the wildfire and I would even give it to the Hound, but after slicing and dicing a few men, he came up small in the end. But that might be the silver lining out of this battle, the Hound and Sansa headed home to Winterfell. If we are giving awards out for the battle I am going to give the over-confident award to Stannis. If he has ways to put the odds in his favorite with the dark magic, why wouldn’t he use it? This is war and I know not all his men like Melisandre, but if you have an edge you have to use it.

I did not realize until the episode was over that we didn’t see any of the other story lines, but I did not miss them tonight. We can catch up to Arya, Jon, Robb and Dany next week. Wow, what a great episode! I hope next week doesn’t leave us hanging too much for season 3!


237 Comments

  1. Mike
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Speechless… Absolutely incredible…everything i could have asked for

    Also First…

  2. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Omg, who wasn’t fucking cheering at the wildfire explosion! Fucking epi

  3. Mortinson51
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Probably the best thing I have seen on Tv for a while. I really hope that Tyrion is not dead.

  4. loco73
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Unfuckingbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holly fucking shit! This went beyond anything I expected! “Game Of Thrones” was beyond any show I have seen….but this episode alone, has put it into another category of its own….

    Splendid direction by Neil Marshall, great screenplay by George RR Martin! We need this combination again down the road?!?!?!?!

    The song at the end by The National was just gravy all around….and Tyrion, if there was any doubt about Peter Dinklage’s worth as one of the best actors outhere, this should quell that….his line “Oh fuck me!” is to me a classic already!!!!! LOL!!!

    Too many thoughts racing through my mind right now to make a coherent argument….Holly fuck….just the sheer scale of the battle for a TV series?!?!?!? The freaking wildfire igniting the river and the ships fucking hell!!!!!! Ser Davos…hope he’s still alive…and where is Melissandre…that sneaky one’s not done yet!!!!

    And of course Tywin and Ser Loras coming to the rescue…epic! Cercei and Sansa, Shay and Varys, just brilliant acting and brilliant characters all around!?!??!

    I just creamed my bottie shorts…..

  5. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    loco73,
    Lol, creaming here too!

  6. quimmy
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Holy crap! The Baratheons are pretty much toast now, except for maybe Gendry.

  7. Doug
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    What was that song in the closing credits?

  8. Nobby
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Why did the king’s bodyguard kill Tyrion?!???!????????? >:(

    I also hate all the lannisters. cant believe this.

  9. Dangeresque
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    No bullshit….I’d run through a fucking wall for Stannis.

  10. loco73
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    I think the Kingsguard knight tried to kill Tyrion and because Cercei asked him to! She really had it in for Tyrion, because in the heat of the battle who would have known…that is how deep her hatred goes for him. Mind you I have not read the book, except for the firt few chapters but I imagine that is why. The threat Tyrion made at the end of last episode was not an idle one…even though the Lannisters really survived because of his cunning and bravery!

    Ah and Stannis, though he was brave and an all around badass, I think this is poetic justice because of what he did to Renly! In a way he sowed the seeds of his own defeat by cowtowing to Melissandre and killing his own brother in order to gain a shortcut to power! It is bitterness and his bile, the feeling that he had been wronged by all, that blinded him to the simple fact that had he united forces with his brother and the Starks, now the Lannisters would all be toast, instead he did the exact opposite…and paid the price…I’m still afraid of what Melissandre will do…she is really powerfull and dangerous…

  11. loco73
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    HAd he not killed Renly, the Tyrels a family almost as rich and powerful as the Lannisters, would never have become Stannis’s enemies or allied themselves with the Lannisters, but Stannis basically gave the Tyrels the perfect excuse to turn on him…and we all saw what happened as a result!

  12. kevin
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    The Tyrells were already Stannis’ enemies, they would have fought against him for Renly. They can’t turn ob him if they were never his

  13. Jared
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    Doug:
    What was that song in the closing credits?

    A band, the nationals, I think…wrote the music (pretty sure) to go with lyrics in the ice and fire books, of a famous song in westeros regarding tywin lannisters badassness/ruthlessness, called the rains of castamere.

  14. burth
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Jared: A band, the nationals, I think…wrote the music (pretty sure) to go with lyrics in the ice and fire books, of a famous song in westeros regarding tywin lannisters badassness/ruthlessness, called the rains of castamere.

    The National, to be exact. Song is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn2l2_v6Ur8
    I strongly recommend checking out other stuff they’ve done

  15. Blourd
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Go Podrick!

  16. mikhail
    Posted May 27, 2012 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    its funny how this show had us routeing for the bad guys

  17. Marco
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Tonight’s episode may have been the most intense hours of television I have ever seen.

  18. Toast
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    loco73,

    woah, breathe man. Breathe.

  19. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    well, definitely one thing you can always count on about this show is that the shitty people will live … so, no surprise there. As much as I liked Stannis I knew for that reason he wasn’t going to win. This is the kind of show that will have evil winning for a long long time and then in the end in the grand sweep of things they will get their commupance. Gets pretty tired actually, not sure I can wait for years to see some justice for these cruel imposters.

    Hound’s defection was definitely the best part of the episode for me, and the only surprising part. I wish Sansa had gone with him! He would have protected her greatly as well, now she has more horror to endure. Well, like I said in an earlier thread, it seems she really wants to be in that world. She had a chance to leave it tonight and she turned it down.

    As much as I detest Cersei I enjoyed her drunken self a little tonight. And I’m glad that she didn’t poison her son – he’s the sweet one. Plus then the bitterness of it would have turned her into more of a raging B the rest of the story, which she is quite enough of already.

    I’m sure the dwarf doesn’t die.

    Stanis was a brave man. Little Twirp Joffrey King, sigh.

  20. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    loco73: In a way he sowed the seeds of his own defeat by cowtowing to Melissandre and killing his own brother in order to gain a shortcut to power!

    Sorry loco73 but killing Renly wasn’t a shortcut to power – Renly was the imposter there. Renly had no legitimate claim to the throne, and would have killed Stannis himself if he could have. Stannis offered him a high position in his kingdom, but Renly wanted the throne, which wasn’t his for the taking. One of them had to go. Not sure you can blame that one on Stannis.

  21. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    mikhail: its funny how this show had us routeing for the bad guys

    speak for yourself

  22. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    loco73: HAd he not killed Renly, the Tyrels a family almost as rich and powerful as the Lannisters, would never have become Stannis’s enemies or allied themselves with the Lannisters, but Stannis basically gave the Tyrels the perfect excuse to turn on him…and we all saw what happened as a result!

    Are you watching the same show or are you just not comprehending it that well? Cause I think you have the whole Baratheon / Tyrell storylines a little confused ….

  23. The Young Wolf
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Holy fuck I can’t speak right now. That was an amazing hour of television. Just WOW.

  24. Megan K.
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    The wildfire scene had to be one of the coolest bits of television I have ever seen. That was AMAZING! But the battle got a little confusing for me in the end.. After Tyrion delivered the great line “oh fuck me”, was that Tywin’s forces attacking? They just seemed to come out of nowhere and I couldn’t really tell who it was. All of a sudden Tyrion was getting attacked too.

  25. The Young Wolf
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Megan K.,

    Yes that was Tywin’s host from Harrenhal(they left Harrenhal for King’s Landing last episode), and whoever the Tyrells brought with them.

  26. Rinso
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Megan K.,

    It’s pretty much this – Tyrion managed to repel part of Stannis’ forces at the Mud Gate, but just as he and his men were celebrating, they were attacked by another wave of Stannis’ men. Then one of Joffrey’s Kingsguard knights tried to kill Tyrion. As he lost consciousness, Tyrion glimpsed a Lannister army led by a knight in Renly’s armor attacking Stannis’ forces – as it turned out this was Tywin’s Lannister army from Harrenhal allied with the Tyrells.

  27. JofreyMustDie
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Hello all! Long time watcher, first time poster. Tonight’s episode was amazing! Maybe my favorite ever. The whole battle sequence was cool, and a refreshing departure from the show’s usual format. My only complaint: the wrong lannister was (possibly) killed in battle.

  28. Highgarden
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    I doubt that Tyrion is going to die – but one wonders why a Kingsguard would turn on Tyrion (was Joffrey involved?). I wasn’t with Stannis; Valerys was right that Stannis had been allying himself with dark forces. Killing his cheerful but egotistical brother did him no favors.
    I’m happy that Tyrion is getting the popular support that he deserves. I’m also quietly glad that Tyrion and Tywin are reunited, since they are two of the cleverer characters we’ve seen thus far. Fortunate (from my point of view) that Arya didn’t manage to get Tywin killed before this battle.
    Also, the Stark honorovision does Sansa no favors.

  29. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    So now we’re probably going to have to endure seeing Joffrey all hopped up, marrying and having sex with Sansa. I couldn’t imagine anything more repulsive. Then she’ll be pregnant, and unable to “trade” for Jamie.

    And now that Stanis is defeated, I don’t see how long Robb can hold out against the Lannister forces united.

    These two points mean we are going to see a long unchallenged rule by the Lannisters …. that is unless … a long hard winter comes and they lose their glory that way. Eventually I think Jon Snow together with the Wildlings and the Northerners will attack from the North, and Dany with her dragons will attack from the East … But all of that seems a long long way off given that those storylines are so undeveloped and the dragons will take a long time to get big enough to do damage.

    In the meantime, will Theon swear allegiance to Joffrey, or will Robb get him first? Maybe Robb and Jon Snow will join forces. Then again, maybe Robb will just get killed.

  30. ItsAllJustAGame
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Just pure epicness!!!! Little disappointed that we didnt get to see davos in action. hope hes not dead! And where were the pirates that davos was talking to?? The dude had 30ships! Didn’t see him at all!! I really hope Stannis doesn’t die, hes just a great character! best quote of the episode “fuck the king,” – The Hound! And from what it looks like, I dont see anyone posing a threat to the lannisters now that they are with the tryells. I have a feeling Jofrey will be king for a while now, unfortunately!! God I hope Stannis doesn’t die!!

  31. Adenhart
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters:
    So now we’re probably going to have to endure seeing Joffrey all hopped up, marrying and having sex with Sansa.I couldn’t imagine anything more repulsive.

    You must have missed it, earlier in the season Littlefinger proposed that Joffrey wed Margaery Tyrell in exchange for the Tyrell’s military support. Since the Tyrell’s showed up with Tywin to save the day one can only assume Sansa is OUT and Margaery is IN.

  32. Highgarden
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Don’t get me wrong, but I wouldn’t look for salvation from Lannisters from Daenerys. She comes across as a selfish type in the most recent episodes. I’m hoping for Robb on the throne, myself, though he would never take it, plus the miraculous survival of Davos Seaworth and a reunion between Ser Jorah and his father beyond the wall. I would settle for King Robert’s son if he manages to enter himself into the running. Brienne’s cool too.

  33. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Highgarden: She comes across as a selfish type in the most recent episodes.

    Sure, but did you watch the others? She shows a lot of compassion for others, and courage, and shoot, she walks into fire and comes out naked with no burns but baby dragons on her shoulder … I mean, that pretty much takes the cake. If I had to choose a Queen I would certainly choose her. She’s fair, strong, beautiful, passionate, and has dragons. Plus she has a real claim to the throne. Noone else in this picture does, except Stanis and he just lost. Robb doesn’t want it. My prediction is that in the end Dany allies and maybe even marries with Jon Snow of the North, who has somehow miraculously united the Northerners with the Wildlings, and maybe Robb Stark is in the picture still. Dany’s dragons will be needed to fight the WhiteWalkers. She’s the natural hero.

    A reunion of Ser Jorah and his father beyond the wall is interesting – hadn’t thought of that, but then I don’t know those characters that well. Just watching the show here, not reading the books.

  34. Patrick Carlisle
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Doug,

    The Rains of Castamere

  35. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Adenhart: You must have missed it, earlier in the season Littlefinger proposed that Joffrey wed Margaery Tyrell in exchange for the Tyrell’s military support.

    Oh I did see that he made a play for alliance, but I didn’t realize that was it. Well, she’ll be better suited for him than Sansa, since she seems to know the power game. That’s a relief. We’ll see how it ends up ….

  36. Black as Snow
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    I’m completely blown away. I’m so afraid that Tyrion, my favorite character, is dead. But I wonder — would he finally get some respect from his family if he’s dead? More than if he lives, I think.

    I love/hate Cersei. She’s so hardened and mean, but broken and vulnerable underneath it all. I know it’s sick, since I like her little boy, but it would’ve been so poetic if she had poisoned her son just before her father arrived.

    As for Sansa, I suspect she will follow the Hound. She would be insane to stay, but she may be too committed to the road she’s on to strike out into the unknown with the Hound. Had Shea gone with her to her room, Shea would have made her leave. But it might be worthwhile for her to stay just so she can comment on the lack of blood on Joffrey’s sword. But it would be even funnier for Ser Breanne to arrive in King’s Landing with Jaime only to find that neither of the Stark girls are there.

    Am I the only one who thought Ser Loras was Jaime Lannister? I thought he had somehow gotten free, found some of his father’s men, and ridden south to “save” the day. I didn’t even snap that Ser Loras was wearing Renley’s armor. I wonder if Joffrey/Tywin will let Loras kill Stannis.

    And poor Stannis just can’t get it right. I know he’s the rightful heir to the throne, but the Gelding is right — he threw in his lot with the wrong woman. I thought for sure his mistress would conjure up all sorts of magic so that he would win the day. But I wouldn’t count him (or her) out yet. I think Melisandre and their “love child” may save him. Too bad.

    I’m wondering what prompted Tywin to go south instead of north. It makes sense for him to go to King’s Landing, rather than after Robb Stark, but why the big announcement last episode about riding north? Perhaps to flush out a spy in his inner circle?

    I am dying for/dreading next week’s episode!

  37. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Black as Snow: I thought for sure his mistress would conjure up all sorts of magic so that he would win the day.

    Well, he left his mistress behind. If she’d been there he probably would have won. That was predictable. But no, I wouldn’t count her out yet.

    My guess is it will be Brienne who kills Stannis after all. But we’ll see.

  38. Peter
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Doug,

    The Reynes are an extinct house that lived in Castamere and were bannermen to the Lannisters. Tywin killed them all when they rebelled against him. Later some singer made the story into a song that’s well-known throughout Westeros. Here’s the lyrics:

    And who are you, the proud lord said,
    that I must bow so low?
    Only a cat of a different coat,
    that’s all the truth I know.
    In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
    a lion still has claws,
    And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
    as long and sharp as yours.
    And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
    that lord of Castamere,
    But now the rains weep o’er his hall,
    with no one there to hear.
    Yes now the rains weep o’er his hall,
    and not a soul to hear.

  39. Black as Snow
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters: My guess is it will be Brienne who kills Stannis after all. But we’ll see.

    That would be fun. I wonder how Brienne would get into a position where she could kill Stannis. By trading Jaime for the opportunity? I can’t imagine Ser Loras would be agreeable to that arrangement. I thought perhaps he had joined with the Lannisters in return for the chance to kill Stannis himself. But maybe the person who commented about Loras’ sister (Marjorie?) marrying Joffrey was correct. I think Joffrey would meet his match, if that were the case.

  40. Turncloak
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters: Oh I did see that he made a play for alliance, but I didn’t realize that was it.Well, she’ll be better suited for him than Sansa, since she seems to know the power game.That’s a relief.We’ll see how it ends up ….

    “Do you want to be Queen?” “No, I want to be THE Queen”. Lol wait till Marg finds out how much of a douche Joffrey is

  41. Donathan
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 3:12 am | Permalink

    I doubt Tyrion is dead. I think this story is extremely well written and I can understand how this book and the series has become so popular. I’ve never read the book but I am an active soldier and therefore my career is based upon tactics. I would say 2 things:

    1-The ship with the wildfire was pretty easy to see coming. It is the same tactic used in the spanish armada and was very effective force multiplier for an outmatched enemy. Unconventional warfare is how inferior forces even up the score… as in the wars we are fighting now.

    2-Tyrion has made many enemies, mainly his fucking moronic little sociopath of a nephew and his mother. So I was also expecting some back stabbing from one of them and where better to end someones life than in the heat of battle where stories will never be 100% accurate due to the fog of war.

    Tyrion will have some serious issues with whom to trust and now that this punk of a king has not only survived but the betters of his family have re-established his dominance of rule, Tyrion should be worried.
    Mortinson51,

  42. gotgotgot
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 3:15 am | Permalink

    Totally awesome episode.
    Tyrion is f’ing great.
    Oh WOW his own guy turned on him and sliced his face up!. wow . hardcore!
    The hound is GREAT. Love that dude.
    And wow cant beleive somehow tywin (oh i get it..tyWIN) came in to save the day at the end. didnt see that coming at all was really unexpected and cool.
    Although I was rooting for Stannis to destroy them all.

    10/10 episode. So glad we have 1 more episode left next week! cant wait!!!!!!!

  43. Lord of Light
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Dangeresque,

    I would, too. I am so freaking angry that Stannis did not take the city. How could that happen? I don’t understand someone claiming Tywin and Loras came to the rescue. Whose rescue? King Joffrey the Merciful’s rescue? Cersei the manipulative Queen-Regent’s rescue? These Lannisters (except for Tyrion, of course) are all terrible, tyrannical rulers. Stannis could have made a brilliant king, but it is still not over. I was extremely disappointed there were no Shadow Demons/Babies. Those would have been incredible against the Lannister fleet.

    And just how did Tywin manage to slip past Robb Stark? I can understand that he chose to protect his own daughter and grandchildren over Casterly Rock, but now Robb Stark can claim it for his own. Stannis really should have extended a hand to Robb. Together they would have crushed the Tyrells and the Lannisters, along with the help of some Shadow Demons.

    I definitely did not see that ending coming. I really thought Cersei and Joffrey’s heads would be on pikes, with Stannis on the Iron Throne. I’m wondering where Ser Davos is now and his son.

    It was a brilliant episode, and it managed to shake the hell out of me. Despite I hate how the battle turned out, it was a stellar episode. Now I wonder what Stannis will do, and how long Joffrey’s reign will continue. I really thought it would have ended tonight.

  44. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    Lord of Light: And just how did Tywin manage to slip past Robb Stark?

    Robb was north of Tywin, King’s Landing was south. He did a fake out. Last week he said he was going north but he came south instead.

  45. Balerion
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    I smell an Emmy for this magnificent awesome fantastic epic episode. This episode changed the face of tv series, forever!

  46. socrates k
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    Sooo..how many episodes per season is George supposed to write?One eh?Damn it..

  47. Joffrey B.
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    Whoa. o_O

  48. spacechampion
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Hexonx: Robb was north of Tywin, King’s Landing was south.He did a fake out.Last week he said he was going north but he came south instead.

    Casterly Rock is west (and slightly south) of Harrenhal. King’s Landing is southeast of Harrenhal.

  49. Dangeresque
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    I hope that the one thing that comes out of this episode is Neil Marshall coming back next season to direct an episode or two.

  50. young stark
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    Wow…that was too good of an episode king of the north!!!!!!!

  51. Suzaku
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Lord of Light:
    Dangeresque,

    I would, too. I am so freaking angry that Stannis did not take the city. How could that happen? I don’t understand someone claiming Tywin and Loras came to the rescue. Whose rescue? King Joffrey the Merciful’s rescue? Cersei the manipulative Queen-Regent’s rescue? These Lannisters (except for Tyrion, of course) are all terrible, tyrannical rulers. Stannis could have made a brilliant king, but it is still not over. I was extremely disappointed there were no Shadow Demons/Babies. Those would have been incredible against the Lannister fleet.

    And just how did Tywin manage to slip past Robb Stark? I can understand that he chose to protect his own daughter and grandchildren over Casterly Rock, but now Robb Stark can claim it for his own. Stannis really should have extended a hand to Robb. Together they would have crushed the Tyrells and the Lannisters, along with the help of some Shadow Demons.

    I definitely did not see that ending coming. I really thought Cersei and Joffrey’s heads would be on pikes, with Stannis on the Iron Throne. I’m wondering where Ser Davos is now and his son.

    It was a brilliant episode, and it managed to shake the hell out of me. Despite I hate how the battle turned out, it was a stellar episode. Now I wonder what Stannis will do, and how long Joffrey’s reign will continue. I really thought it would have ended tonight.

    All things in time. This is a very long series and one battle doesn’t equal a whole war. Things are just starting to heat up in Westeros.

  52. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Turncloak: “Do you want to be Queen?” “No, I want to be THE Queen”. Lol wait till Marg finds out how much of a douche Joffrey is

    Right, I remember the quote well. I just didn’t know that he was offering to swap her with Sansa. I guess it was implied.

    I think Joffrey will have met his match with her. I’ll bet she shows him who’s boss.

    Will be interesting to see the dynamic between Marjorie (sp?) and Cersei, if she indeed takes Sansa’s place. I think there will be a lot of rivalry. Marjorie won’t want Cersei to have any power, as she’s so power hungry herself. Or will Cersei recognize and be interested in Marjorie? Two evil queens, we’ll see what happens. I think Cersei will get banished from the circle of power somehow. But that’s just a guess.

    Wow these people’s lives are thick with hate. So glad I didn’t live back then!

  53. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Lord of Light,

    Lord of Light: I definitely did not see that ending coming. I really thought Cersei and Joffrey’s heads would be on pikes, with Stannis on the Iron Throne.

    Really? If there’s one thing we’ve come to expect about this series it’s that the horrible people win and our favorite people tend to get killed, captured or wounded. I thought it was totally predictable. Didn’t realize that it would be Tywin’s forces to save the day, but still you knew that Stannis was going to lose and Joffrey and Cersei would live.

    It’s funny – in most TV shows the protagonists don’t get killed (unless at the very end). It was a big game changing moment when the central protagonist, Eddard Stark, was killed last season. Completely unexpected and out of normal TV form. However, now it is becoming such a regular occurrance that the characters we like get killed or lose, that it has completely lost its surprise or shock value for me. The way this series is going, what would be a game changer or surprise at this point were if were one of the evil characters gets killed. That’s the only thing that generally doesn’t happen. And for all you naysayers, I don’t mean small characters. I mean the big ones we’ve been following for two years now.

    I suspect it will soon enough. Bad guys can’t win forever.

  54. TheBlackFlame
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    loco73,

    Methinks we have a book reader in disguise! This comes from a book reader.

  55. Ashton Lee
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Now THIS was awesome. I always complained how “everyday” DW episodes seem to have a bigger budget than GoT, but this was finally worth it.

    Also, seriously, you nonreaders, no reaction for Davos? At all?

    Emmys are coming.

  56. Flow101
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Well I really loved the whole war, thought it was almost perfect except for the last few minutes, it felt rushed. I was confused, the Lannister’s supporters came out of nowhere and Stannis isn’t even shown fleeing from Kings landing, guess they needed to rush because they ran out of time. And I wanted to see the black pirate, he was great in that episode he appeared! And I also wanted to see the Onion Knight in action!!

    But overall easily the best episode so far! That Green Explosion was so fking GREAT!!

  57. Doug
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    loco73,

    Stannis chose to not bring Melisandre with him because Davos convinced him that if he did everyone would say he needed Melisandre’s skirts to take the Iron Throne. Turns not not bringing her was a huge mistake for Stannis.

  58. House of Payne
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    The only thing that I could think of during the Sansa and The Hound scene was: Catelyn will look SO stupid if Sansa goes with him. She would have sent Brienne to trade Jaime for absolutely nobody.

  59. ItsAllJustAGame
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Still can’t believe Stannis lost!! and i believe no one will kill Stannis. i think stannis will take his own life before he lets anyone do it themselves. And Davos better be alive!!

  60. MRR
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Black as Snow,

    Tywin didn’t say where he was going in last week’s episode – he only said he was leaving Harrenhal.

  61. James
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    quimmy,

    How could Baratheon have come to such a battle without the Red witch and the black ghost assassin .. what was he thinking?

  62. ohfukkme!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    By far the greatest hour of television ever. Im a little confused by the whole Tyrel/Lannister situation. I thought the Tyrels & Starks were somewhat aligned, but now that the Tyrels have joined the Lannisters doesn’t that make the Tyrels enemies with the Starks?

  63. Restore The Day
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    MRR:
    Black as Snow,

    Tywin didn’t say where he was going in last week’s episode – he only said he was leaving Harrenhal.

    He did say it, I believe, or at least implied strongly. And loudly. In front of his highborn northerner too-clever-for-her-own-good cupbearer.

    Just sayin’

  64. SeVv
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    ohfukkme!,

    Renly wanted an allegiance with the Starks, but Stannis killed him. Loras wants revenge. Thats one reason why the Tyrelly side with the Lannister.
    The other reason (beware minor spoiler): Margaery wants to be THE Queen

  65. Eve
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Mortinson51,

    YEAH! That would really be a loss!!! I so love his character. And…am I the only one who thinks HE would probably make the best king? Everywhere he goes he has to face mocking and prejudice…and ends up with people cheering “Halfmen”.

  66. ohfukkme!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Eve,

    “Halfman” but i see your point. Yes he would make a great king or leader, however i think the darkness of the current events would be too much for him too bare as king. Take for instance the reaction he has after the execution of the wildfire attack. The horror on his face shows that it is not him suited for such actions, but the sly grin on Jeoffrey’s face shows why he is (shall i dare say) best fit for king at the current time. Oh, and i did not read the book but to me it looks as though he doesn’t die at the end of “blackwater”.

  67. Mike
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Adenhart: You must have missed it, earlier in the season Littlefinger proposed that Joffrey wed Margaery Tyrell in exchange for the Tyrell’s military support. Since the Tyrell’s showed up with Tywin to save the day one can only assume Sansa is OUT and Margaery is IN.

    ItsAllJustAGame,

    Bit of a spoiler there. Most people wouldn’t connect those dots right away. We know Tywin has a penchant for brokering crucial alliances; to the casual viewer, he could have done any number of things to strike the alliance with the Tyrells.

  68. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    I’m confused as to why people keep saying on here that Stannis should have joined forces with Renly instead of killing him and making enemies of the Tyrell’s. Does anyone really think that Renly was open to that?

    And while I liked Renly fine, I didn’t feel that bad for him when he got killed. He didn’t have any rights to the throne by law or tradition, he just thought he would be a good king because his lover told him he would. He had the chance to surrender or join forces with his brother Stannis, the rightful heir, and chose instead to go against him in battle. Therefore in my mind his death was a necessary outcome of his decisions and greed for the throne. I would say his death was justly earned by his actions (as opposed to Ned Stark, whose death was unjustly earned through his actions).

    And to those that say Stannis should have brought his red priestess Milassandre with him, I agree that if she were there he would have won. However, if she were there the throne and the kingdom would then be subjugated to rule by her dark magical powers, and I’m not sure we would want that either.

  69. New Wolf
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Wow! WOOOW! It was epic. It was a masterpiece. I loved that it focused only on Kings Landing. The pacing was perfect. A blend of action scenes packed with more quiet scenes with Cersei. Just a whole bunch of awesomeness, really. The wildfire looked amazing. Battle scenes as well.
    Sansa was great. She’s really smart and I love her sarcastic tone. The actress is perfect. Same thing goes for Cersei. The last scene… OMG! I really thought she will kill her kid. It was so emotional even though she is “a bad guy”.
    Tyrion… OMG! Joffrey ordered that guy to kill Tyrion. That cunt!!! Sorry for all the omg-s, I’m just really excited. I hope he’ll be okay.
    I didn’t expect to see Tywin. Let alone Ser Loras. I hope this means we’ll get to know his family soon.
    I can’t believe there is just one episode left. This was the best episode yet and I want more!

  70. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    wow, has anyone noticed how *yawn* boring this thread has gotten now that we banished all the non-book readers from it? there’s what, like 15 of us commenting on here now? kinda lost the spirit in the elimination there. i think book readers should be allowed to post if they don’t sew spoilers.

  71. Lord of Light
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    I agree with you. Renly reasserted to Catelyn that night in the tent that he would destroy his brother’s army in the morning, implying that he might eliminate Stannis as well. I am completely certain that Renly too would have done anything to get the Iron Throne, just like Stannis. So it was just a matter of who would kill who first, and of course Stannis got the punch on Renly, which was brutal but deserved, given that Renly had no real claim and was only convinced by his lover. If anything, it’s the Tyrell’s (both Margaery and Loras) who want a seat of power, using Renly as their mouthpiece.

    But yes, I really did not see that ending coming. I know that the unexpected is what should be expected in this show, that bad triumphs over good or noble or honorable. I just felt that since we already saw that in its extreme last season (e.g. Ned Stark’s terrible end, slaughtering of Stark retainers, Sansa held prisoner, Joffrey Lannister starting a reign of terror and cruelty), it was high time for some retribution. It was time for a game changer—a new king, and that king would be Stannis Baratheon. I thought that Melisandre by his side governing the Seven Kingdoms would be the new controversy, and that Stannis’ kingship would be questioned and challenged in the next season/book by other Houses. That’s what I thought.

    But this…what happened at Blackwater…it just feels to me like not a lot has changed since season one, since Ned Stark’s death. Joffrey is still king. Cersei is still queen-regent. The Lannisters still control the Seven Kingdoms and assert their malevolence. The Starks did not get their retribution. The Baratheons (after Robert’s untimely death, being usurped by Jaime’s bastard son) did not get their retribution. Their tyrannical rule will continue, and Stannis will retreat to Dragonstone I’m sure. Tywin I presume will now takeover Tyrion’s duties since he has arrived. Not a single Lannister has been killed by the enemy. The song at the end of the episode was like adding insult to injury.

    I just hope Brienne kills Jaime in the next episode. I doubt it will happen, though.

  72. loco73
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    TheBlackFlame,

    LOL…I am, and I am not…so far I have only read the first book of the “A Song Of Ice And Fire” saga, namely “A Game Of Thrones”…I had planned to read the whole series before Season Two started, but I never got the chance to. I managed to sneak a the first few chapters of “A Clash Of Kings” but never got to far…

    Once this season is done, I’ll try my best to make the time and read the books…its must madenning to wait any longer…

  73. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    I see Stannis’ war against the Lannisters as far from over. Like many have said in this thread he lost a BATTLE, but there are many BATTLES within a war. He has Melisandre, and whatever she can conjure up. Robb has also made it known that he has no desire for the iron throne: just to return home and rule the north. That would make an alliance between the remnants of Stannis’ forces and Robb’s a possibility. Finally, while I know the Martell’s now have Marcella in Dorne, Cersei has said that they “loathe” the Lannisters, so who knows whose side they could fall on.

    Now that Tywin is in King’s Landing you have to think it weakens the Lannisters forces to the North. This “game” is still wide open in my opinion!!

    Plus, you can’t forget about my boy Theon!

  74. Dave Brownell
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader, i have to say it was BRILLIANT!! I have nothing bad to say about it, the wildfire explosion was magnificent!!! I’m glad Pod came to save Tyrion as he did in the books XDXD

    All i’m going to say is i hope they give Bronn more screen-time as the series progresses, he’s a great actor and his scene with the Hound was tense. Def one of my fav characters, the dude that lit the fuse to the greatest bar-raising moment in television history. Top that True Blood lmao

    ka-BOOOOM!!!!

  75. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Lord of Light: not a lot has changed since season one, since Ned Stark’s death. Joffrey is still king. Cersei is still queen-regent. The Lannisters still control the Seven Kingdoms and assert their malevolence.

    to an even greater degree than before … now that they have wiped out 2 of 3 of their known challengers to the throne (let’s assume for now they don’t know about Dany), and united with the wealthy Tyrell’s, what can stop them? Their dominance is sealed for the moment.

    It’s unclear to me what happened to Stannis at the end. Was it his own men who pulled him away or Lannister/Tyrell fighters? I don’t know if he is captive or retreated. This will make a difference. He still has many men who retreated into the ocean, and his witch mistress who is powerful.

    I think the new controversy will be a power struggle between Margorie and Cersei. Joffrey has no idea what he’s getting into there, but I think he’ll have met his match with Marjorie!

    I think one demise of the Lannister power is going to be if winter comes and the kingdoms begin to starve. I also think Jon Snow will unite the Northerners with the Wildlings, and eventually march on the Lannisters. So we’ve got Winter, the Northerners, and what’s left of the Stannis alliance, to challenge Lannister rule. Hmmm. Then of course there’s Dany and her dragons but we know from last season that it will be years before they become nuclear weapons.

    I don’t think Brienne will get to kill Jamie. I think if the writer had wanted Jamie dead, he would have given us that satisfaction already. The fact that he’s still alive means he has a purpose later in the story. It would be anti-climactic to have it be Brienne who does the deed, after all this waiting and so many delicious opportunities ….. There’s gonna be a development there for sure.

  76. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: I know the Martell’s now have Marcella in Dorne,

    Who are the Martell’s?

  77. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: Plus, you can’t forget about my boy Theon!

    What’s he gonna do? Who’s side will he be on? I think between Jon Snow and Robb one of them is gonna git ‘im ….

  78. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters: Who are the Martell’s?

    Who are the grammar police? Oh wait! You are!

    And if you weren’t being a grammar nazi, the Martells are a family that lives in the southern part of Westeros in the mountains of Dorne. They have yet to be shown on the show.

  79. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: Who are the grammar police? Oh wait! You are!

    What? Whatever. No, I wasn’t being a grammar nazi, I was asking a question – who are the Martells? I hadn’t heard of them and if I did it was too quick for me to register.

    Jeez, talk about being snarky. But I guess you probably generally tend to have poor judgement, as indicated by your allegiance to Theon.

  80. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    No, Sansa left with the Hound. I dont know if they will make it back to Winterfell but they are definitely gone. I started liking the Hound the minute he turned on Joffrey and him helping Sansa escape made me like him even more.

  81. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress: No, Sansa left with the Hound.

    Really? I thought she told him she would stay, and he left. But if you read it in a book or found the info in some other way, DON’T TELL ME HERE. I guess we’ll learn next episode what really happened.

  82. Lord of Light
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Stannis was held back by his own men. They saw that the battle was lost, so they pulled him away, and I am sure they retreated along with his other soldiers in the sea. It was a really depressing moment for me, because I really like Stannis a lot. He’s my favorite character after Ned Stark. But like Theon Rules! said, the war is not over. I think Stannis’ storyline is just beginning, as he is the only real contender for the Iron Throne. He is definitely a force to be reckoned with.

    Here’s some food for thought: it seems apparent that Melisandre is capable of seeing future events. Remember when she whispered to Matthos, son of Ser Davos, that death by fire is the purest of deaths? She knew he was going to die like that. She also must have known the outcome of the battle at Blackwater Bay. Perhaps since Stannis did not take her along with him, Melisandre made sure that Stannis would lose, as punishment for not bringing her along. Perhaps she wants to see him more devoted to this Lord of Light. I feared, just as Ser Davos feared, that bringing Melisandre along would see the end of Stannis once the battle was won by the Baratheons so that she could have the Seven Kingdoms for herself. But maybe that might have not been true. I was glad that he heeded Davos’ advice back then, but after the outcome of the battle, I wish Stannis would have brought her along.

    Regardless, I foresee Stannis conjuring something with Melisandre and his large army back on Dragonstone. I don’t know what and I don’t know how, but I’m certain he’s bitter about his first defeat. He is a serious man, as Tyrion pointed out, and next time his strike will be even deadlier.

    Regarding Margaery and the Lannisters, I think you are right. Some crazy stuff is going to happen, with the Tyrells and the Lannisters contending for dominance. It will be a crazy power shift, and with their combined powers, as you pointed out, they are an even more formidable foe. Now, I just fear for Catelyn, Robb, and the rest of the Starks. They are outnumbered. If winter is indeed coming, they just might have an advantage.

  83. Lord of Light
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters: Really?I thought she told him she would stay, and he left.But if you read it in a book or found the info in some other way, DON’T TELL ME HERE.I guess we’ll learn next episode what really happened.

    There is a glimpse of Sansa in the preview for the next episode, if you want to get an idea.

  84. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    I apologize. Didn’t mean to come off as snarky. I thought you were a bookreader giving me a hard time about an apostrophe haha

  85. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    I just rewatched.

    I really hope we get some closure on Tyrion and Davos before the end of next week’s episode. I don’t think I can wait until next April! That would be a long winter, indeed.

    Also, I really can’t wait to see where the Hound’s story goes from here. Did anyone else think him and Sansa were going to…kiss during that scene in her room? Their heads were getting a little close for comfort.

  86. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    spacechampion: Casterly Rock is west (and slightly south) of Harrenhal.King’s Landing is southeast of Harrenhal.

    Well, I don’t think Robb is at Casterly Rock but either way Tywin did not have to slip past Robb.

  87. wazzaa
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Doug,
    And who are you, the proud lord said,
    that I must bow so low?
    Only a cat of a different coat,
    that’s all the truth I know.
    In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
    a lion still has claws,
    And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
    as long and sharp as yours.
    And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
    that lord of Castamere,
    But now the rains weep o’er his hall,
    with no one there to hear.
    Yes now the rains weep o’er his hall,
    and not a soul to hear.[

  88. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Also, can anyone explain the Hound/Bronn beef?

  89. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters: And to those that say Stannis should have brought his red priestess Milassandre with him, I agree that if she were there he would have won. However, if she were there the throne and the kingdom would then be subjugated to rule by her dark magical powers, and I’m not sure we would want that either.

    Would Stannis have won though? Yes she has powers but are they enough to capture a city? The only real magic we know she has is that she is immune to poison and she can birth shadow babies. She had to have sex with Stannis to conceive the shadow baby and while its not clear exactly how much time had passed before she birthed it, it did take some time. Maybe she could have enhanced the attack in some way or predicted the wildfire ship, but I don’t know it is a foregone conclusion that he would have won. Also, if she is so powerful how could she not persuade him to take her?

  90. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!:
    Also, can anyone explain the Hound/Bronn beef?

    I think their adrenaline is high due to the impending battle. They serve different masters that don’t like each other and I think the Hound probably just doesn’t like the way Bronn handles himself (all smug like, while he is more serious). So they decide to measure dicks and the bells interrupt them.

  91. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Hexonx: Maybe she could have enhanced the attack in some way or predicted the wildfire ship, but I don’t know it is a foregone conclusion that he would have won

    No, definitely not a forgone conclusion that he would have won with her … but we don’t know the extent of her magic.

    Think about the timing of the attack. 15 more minutes, and the gates of the city would have been breached, Queen Cersei would have poisoned her son and maybe her self, Stannis and his men would have reached the castle, killed Joffrey and taken the throne. Tywin/Tyrell’s army still would have gotten there, and fierce fighting ensued, but not in time to save Joffrey, Cersei and the throne. Just speculating of course. But it’s possible that Melissandre would have somehow been able to quicken their approach in time for him to breach the castle before Tywin’s army arrived.

  92. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Team Tyrion: No, Joe is not serious, he’s just trolling. Yes, he is a huge asshole, and yes, he should be banned.

    Don’t worry, you haven’t been spoiled.

    Thanks Team Tyrion. I thought so – it seemed to simple an outcome anyhow. Some of these storylines are going to be long. (so it seems)

  93. spike
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    obviously tyrion’s not dead! he got a scratch to the face!

    I am more worried about Ser Davos – I want him to be alive – but I can’t see what role he could have as it looks like Stannis’ army got wiped out!

  94. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: Did anyone else think him and Sansa were going to…kiss during that scene in her room?

    That would be so cool!

  95. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    She told him she would stay and then she realized he wouldn’t hurt her. Somehow, I was left with the impression that she would go. I could be wrong but if she did stay she is the huge idiot I always thought her to be.

  96. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    spike: it looks like Stannis’ army got wiped out!

    I’m not sure if his army did get wiped out. It seemed like there were a lot of men retreating there back into the sea. Not sure how many.

  97. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    I find it even harder than before to sympathize with Sansa after that episode. She had wished all along for the Joffrey fantasy life, even last season, after she saw at the river how much of a little jackass he was (of course, he has only gotten worse since then). And now, she had the chance to get out, completely, with no repricussions whatsoever, and she stays. I mean, she is in a shitty situation, but come on! How can you feel bad for her?

  98. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress: She told him she would stay and then she realized he wouldn’t hurt her. Somehow, I was left with the impression that she would go. I could be wrong but if she did stay she is the huge idiot I always thought her to be.

    Yeah, I don’t think that scene was clear. She could be saying “You won’t hurt me (if I don’t come with you).” But she did seem to just stand there and watch as he walked out. And I don’t think she is safer if she does go with him. Joffrey won’t be happy that his dog just ran off. I am shure he would pursue him and the Hound is not exactly inconspicuous. Winterfell is a long way away and not an easy trek for one man and a girl in the middle of a war zone. Sansa is just not cut out for that (now Arya, maybe). Sansa’s best chance is to stay put and not try to ruffle any feathers and let things play out.

  99. Gatorfisch
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters: Who are the Martell’s?

    They the Lords of the Southern province of Westeros. Elia Martell was married to the brother of the Mad King, and was murdered with her children by Lannister men….

  100. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    All,

    Dude was just trolling to be an ass. It wasn’t a spoiler. I think he just made shit up.

    FaB

  101. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Hexonx,

    I guess her one excuse for staying would be that Stannis would kill Joffery and maybe she would want to stick around and see his head roll. LOL

  102. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Restore The Day: He did say it, I believe, or at least implied strongly. And loudly. In front of his highborn northerner too-clever-for-her-own-good cupbearer.

    He did say it but it appears to be more to the benefit of the viewers (to fake us out). Even if he does suspect Arya of being a Northern spy she has no reason or means to alert Stannis of Tywin’s movements.

  103. Hexonx
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress:
    Hexonx,

    I guess her one excuse for staying would be that Stannis would kill Joffery and maybe she would want to stick around and see his head roll. LOL

    Hehe, for sure. Although with Stannis it would probably be a burning.

    Edit: If Stannis had won I think he made it clear he would not accept the same deal with Robb as Renly did so she would still be a prisoner. But at least it would be better to be his prisoner than Joffrey and Cercei’s.

  104. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Im so excited for the finale! I keep checking back here, bc reading what everyone else wrote is the only thing that gives me a Game of Thrones fix!

    I really want to know who the nurse who works for Robb’s army is. I really do not trust her. She is a highborn lady and she is hiding which family she is from.When she was describing her family crest to Catelyn, Catelyn had never heard of it. I feel that Robb will die either directly or indirectly because of her.

    Now that Tywin is at King’s Landing I think that Cersei’s power will be considerably less. He will not be happy that Cersei and Joffery nearly lost King’s Landing because she called Joffery back to the castle because she was afraid he would die. I think Tywin will come to favor Tyrion over all his children. Mainly because, I think he will be disgusted when he finds out that Cersei and Jamie had an incestuous relationship and Joffery isnt really a rightful claimant to the throne.

  105. kevin
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Elia Martell was married to the Mad King’s son Rhaegar, not his brother. Rhaegar was killed in battle by Robert, Elia and kids were killed in the sack of King’s Landing

  106. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!,

    i see what you mean Theon Rules, but I actually liked her better this episode. At least she is getting smart – I like to see her insult Joffrey. i posted on this thread last time how much I didn’t like her, but a bunch of people talked me out of it. I do wish she would recognize Tyrion’s humanity – he’s always been so good to her. But she sees him as a Lannister and can’t catch that perhaps she could trust, or at least be playful, with him. But she’s young and not the greatest character read and she’s in a very very dangerous position.

    And while I wish she would have gone with the Hound, it’s a risky move. She might feel like she can take care of herself better by playing her cards right in the environment she’s in, and going off with the Hound would be really risky for her. Yes he’s one of the best protectors you could have, but all men are fallible, and killable, and she would be a major target if she deserted the castle. Plus she thinks at this point that Stannis is going to win, and remember, Stannis was the one her father supported and gave his life trying to put on the throne. So I can see her not being willing to take that risk in that moment.

    My biggest worry about Sansa is that she is going to end up just like Cersei.

    On another note, she is probably getting to know Cersei better than anyone else, and that may play an interesting role in her destiny. Terrible role model though. But a smart one.

  107. Omar Brown
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    While I am a fully caught up book reader, I won’t ever spoil. Ever.
    Season one was spoiled for me by a troll and I would never do that to someone else.

    I like the new viewer recap posts, the speculation is very fun to read and there are no book purists around to sour the experience.

    Rock on guys and wait till season 3 and 4, you guys are in for a real treat!

  108. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Megan K.:
    [...] The battle got a little confusing for me in the end.. After Tyrion delivered the great line “oh fuck me”, was that Tywin’s forces attacking? They just seemed to come out of nowhere and I couldn’t really tell who it was. All of a sudden Tyrion was getting attacked too.

    The Young Wolf:
    Megan K.,

    Yes that was Tywin’s host from Harrenhal(they left Harrenhal for King’s Landing last episode), and whoever the Tyrells brought with them.

    First, Tyrion cripples Stannis’ navy with his floating wildfire bomb.

    Second, Stannis regains the upper hand through courageous leadership of his marines.

    Third, Tyrion rallies his dejected city guard and uses the escape tunnels for an ambush on those marines.

    Fourth, Stannis’ army – the bannermen that rallied to him after Renly’s death – relieves the marines with a surprise counter-attack.

    Tyrion was attacked by Ser Mandon Moore, the member of the kingsguard that Joffrey ordered to represent him on the battlefield before he slinked off to mommy dearest. It was the same knight Cersei ordered to bring in Ros, who she mistook for Tyrion’s main squeeze, in episode 18. We don’t know if the knight’s orders to assassinate Tyrion during the battle came from Joffrey or Cersei. Either way, the attempt was foiled when the halfman’s squire, Podrick Payne, put a spear through Ser Mandon’s throat. However, Tyrion was knocked down hard, his face was slashed and he lost enough blood to drift in and out of consciousness.

    Fifth, Tywin’s reserves and the separate army Loras raised off-screen after he fled Renly’s camp led a concerted surprise assault on Stannis’ bannermen to relieve Tyrion’s embattled men and, they won the battle. The proximate reason for Tywin’s ad-hoc alliance with Loras is their common enemy, Stannis.

    ===

    Below is my personal speculation of what may have happened off-screen before and during the battle, which the TV show could only show part of. All of the following is based on information provided by the show, not the books (I haven’t read them). Nevertheless, I’ve put it all in spoiler tags so those new viewers who don’t want to engage in speculation can more easily ignore mine. I hope you agree that’s a fair compromise.

    We haven’t seen Loras’ father Lord Tyrell in the TV show, but we did learn in last season’s chest shaving scene that he’s the second richest man in Westeros after Tywin. Lord Tyrell arranged his daughter Margaery’s marriage to Renly, hoping she would end up as the queen and thus give House Tyrell influence at court. She told Littlefinger she shared this ambition after plan A blew up in her face. Renly’s army was 100,000 strong, for the most part Baratheon bannermen that had been bankrolled by the Tyrells in a quid-pro-quo. The Tyrells had to flee as Renly’s bannermen switched their allegiance to Stannis.

    With the bulk of the Lannister army tied up in the Riverlands, Lord Tyrell evidently decided to respond by raising a large new army of his own bannermen, led by Loras, to defeat Stannis on his own. If successful, he could then go beyond marrying into the royal family and seize the throne for himself. Some viewers may have been left with the impression that Loras was simply looking to avenge Renly, but his father wouldn’t have shelled out for that alone. The issue for Lord Tyrell is time: raising an army takes a while and Stannis got a massive head start when he took over the bulk of Renly’s army.

    We didn’t get to see the relative sizes of the opposing forces at Blackwater, but we can make some educated guesses:

    – Stannis told us in episode 11 the side with the superior numbers wins 9 out of 10 times, except when the weaker side has fortifications to hide behind. In episode 19, an officer pointed out that landing his marines further from the target landing zone than he had planned because of the wildfire blocking his ships path would lead to “hundreds” of additional casualties. Stannis responded “thousands” and decided to lead the assault to keep his marines’ morale high. Tyrion had earlier told Cersei that Stannis’ fleet had “over 200″ ships. Given the size of medieval ships, figure 30-50 marines on each one, for a total of 6,000-10,000. A fraction of these were lost to the initial wildfire explosion. Stannis’ plan was to use the marines to concentrate Tyrion’s much smaller city guard (perhaps as few as 2,000-3,000 men) at the Mud Gate. If successful, he could then open the other gates to his much larger army from within. If not, part of that army would be brought in to relieve the marines at short notice (see “Fourth” above).

    – in season 1, Robb Stark managed to fool Tywin into thinking he could afford to split his army and then went on to defeat the fraction led by Jamie and take large numbers of prisoners. Since Robb had 18,000 men, the total number of Lannister soldiers at that time would have been 40,000-50,000. Recently, Robb mentioned his host now numbers around 20,000, i.e. he’s managed to more than make up for battlefield losses.

    – Tywin, however, has lost all of his major encounters with Robb and is struggling to quash the Brotherhood guerilla. He’s been forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel for reinforcements: Jaqen, Rory and Biter were all prisoners in the Red Keep’s black cells, reserved for the most dangerous criminals. The message Arya stole off Tywin’s desk suggested some 10,000 Lannister men were being sent west to protect the Westerlands, but of course that message may very well have been fake, intended only to entrap Arya. Still, it seems credible that Tywin would have had no more than 20,000-30,000 reserve troops at Harrenhal at the end of episode 18.

    – Subtract that from the reported strength of Renly’s bannermen (100,000) and combine it with Stannis’ assertion and you’d think the aforementioned alliance would need upward of 80,000 Tyrell bannermen to have an even chance of defeating him. It’s entirely credible that Lord Tyrell only managed to raise a large fraction of that in the time available, rendering victory far less certain. This would explain why he would allow Tywin, the experienced veteran field marshal, to apparently lead the allied host, even though – by my reckoning – the Tyrells were actually contributing far more men. It seems very likely that the terms of the alliance would have included some agreement on how the Lannisters would share power with the Tyrells after the battle was won. Anything else would just draw out the civil war, which is in neither of these rich men’s interest. Stay tuned!

  109. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    It’s been fun talking to y’all. I have more questions and insights, but too tired to write them. And yes DarkEmpress, come here for your GoT fix! It’s more fun when more people are in the conversation!

  110. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    spike,

    I am worried for Davos as well….You could clearly see him get thrown from the boat into the water away from the explosion, but swimming in all that armor must be no easy task.

  111. Lord of Light
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!:
    spike,

    I am worried for Davos as well….You could clearly see him get thrown from the boat into the water away from the explosion, but swimming in all that armor must be no easy task.

    I definitely fear for Davos, too. I think he still may be alive, but I’m pretty sure his son Matthos is dead. After all, Melisandre whispered to him exactly how he’d die. Now I wonder what the Davos-Stannis relationship will be like from now on. They were so confident they’d win. I was so confident they’d win.

  112. Jorge
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink
  113. death to lannisters
    Posted May 28, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Lord of Light: They were so confident they’d win.

    Davos was never confident they would win. remember his words to his son before the attack.

  114. Lord of Light
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters: Davos was never confident they would win.remember his words to his son before the attack.

    Well, I suppose I meant Stannis was confident he’d win. You’re right about Davos’ apprehension. Just the look on Stannis’ face as they were approaching King’s Landing… Not once did I even consider they would lose.

  115. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    Lord of Light,

    I was sad about it too. but I have faith that eventually these suckers will get what they deserve.

  116. I Know of Fear
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Now I see why the show has kept the battles offscreen (aside from saving the budget to go all out at the end). For me it really enhanced the “fog of war” aspect because I wasn’t used to following people’s armor to figure out what side they were on. Tyrion got attacked suddenly and I was trying to figure out who did that and why it looked like a person under his command. Stannis being pulled out of the fight by someone and I couldn’t quite tell why.

    And especially the reinforcements that came to the battle. After Tyrion’s plastic surgery (I knew he wasn’t dead because this series wouldn’t hesitate to show his face sliding off) I saw a horseman ride by with a red banner. I associated red with the Lannisters, but this isn’t a Lannister army, it is the Kings Guard. I couldn’t see a sigil on the banner, but I know that Stannis is using a stag with flame, was that what I saw? But if Stannis was pulled out of the battle, who was that knocking at the door to the throne room. My jaw dropped when Tywin came in to save the day.

    It is amazing how this show managed to stop me from rooting for either faction. I consider House Lannister to be the bad guys in general. Even though they were in a battle against the rightful heir to the throne, they were protect the city’s civillians from an onslaught and a siege that could have had hundreds of innocent victims. Plus the fact that Onion Knight and Varys are right about Melisandre: she needs to be kept as far from the throne as possible.

    I so wish to know more about Varys. I had never wondered about his “loss” before he implied it was related to dark magic, and now I know he mayhave been places and seen things even more interesting than what he’s privy to at the royal court. And his comment about the horror of marraige makes me realize that, like Littlefinger, the greatest spy networks are run by people who won’t fall in love in Kings Landing.

    And because this episode doesn’t give me a chance to declare Theon and idiot, I will finish by discussing Sansa. She is much smarter than she was last season. She refused to leave with the Hound because knows not to trust a man who said he loves killing. Joffrey loves killing, and he isn’t the most stable person around… did you see the erection he got while watching the ships burn? Which reminds me, I’d forgotten that the Hound got his face when his older brother gave him a swirly in the fireplace until he told Sansa he was going AWOL to get someplace that isn’t burning. He must be pyrophobic. But back to Sansa: she knows she isn’t cut out for travel. She knows that she is valuable alive in Lannister hands. She knows not to be openly betray her king (I laughed at the line about praying Tyrion remains as just as safe as Joffrey). It seems she has done the most growing of any Stark children, unless Arya has gotten too used to ordering murder. I now worry about and cheer for Sansa in a way I didn’t before this season began.

  117. Calla
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    MRR,

    MRR:
    Black as Snow,

    Tywin didn’t say where he was going in last week’s episode – he only said he was leaving Harrenhal.

    He said he was going after Robb Stark’s forces. That’s why Arya was looking for Jhaqen to kill Tywin before he left because she thought he was going after Robb. Tywin did the old ” I’m going here loud and often, but I’m really going here” as demonstrated by Cat and Robb last season.

  118. Calla
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    MRR:
    Black as Snow,

    Tywin didn’t say where he was going in last week’s episode – he only said he was leaving Harrenhal.

    He said he was going after Robb Stark’s forces. That’s why Arya was looking for Jhaqen to kill Tywin before he left because she thought he was going after Robb. Tywin did the old ” I’m going here loud and often, but I’m really going here” as demonstrated by Cat and Robb last season.

  119. Gatorfisch
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    kevin: Im so excited for the finale! I keep checking back here, bc reading what everyone else wrote is the only thing that gives me a Game of Thrones fix!

    I really want to know who the nurse who works for Robb’s army is. I really do not trust her. She is a highborn lady and she is hiding which family she is from.When she was describing her family crest to Catelyn, Catelyn had never heard of it. I feel that Robb will die either directly or indirectly because of her.

    Now that Tywin is at King’s Landing I think that Cersei’s power will be considerably less. He will not be happy that Cersei and Joffery nearly lost King’s Landing because she called Joffery back to the castle because she was afraid he would die. I think Tywin will come to favor Tyrion over all his children. Mainly because, I think he will be disgusted when he finds out that Cersei and Jamie had an incestuous relationship and Joffery isnt really a rightful claimant to the throne.

      Quote  Reply

    She & her kids were killed by Lannister men, not necessarily by Tywin’s orders..

  120. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    Rinso,

    Careful there, you’re treading on thin ice. Too helpful. Episode 10 might establish some different details, etc. I’d prefer it if you let the non-readers discuss and speculate on their own, or at least don’t bring in book-knowledge (however little of that you actually use).

    Everyone,
    For the record, I deleted some rightfully indignated responses to the attempt at trolling and spoiling. Since the original offending post was removed, there is no need for those anymore, hope you don’t mind.

  121. Jyl
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    my feelings watching this episode:

    waaaah, whats happening

    ow i hate this series

    noo, i love it

    but these lannisters……

    ooo noooo tyrion, not tyrion!!

    what an awful episode and yet so awesome

  122. Udi
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    loco73,

    Do yourself a favor. Do NOT read ‘A Storm of Swords’. Tough as it will be (I know, I know), I think you will be better off waiting till S3 ends and THEN read ASOS. Just my humble opinion as a book-reader.

  123. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Dark Empress:

    I really want to know who the nurse who works for Robb’s army is. I really do not trust her. She is a highborn lady and she is hiding which family she is from.When she was describing her family crest to Catelyn, Catelyn had never heard of it.

    Robb may be too busy thinking with his masculine ending right now to process the information that Talisa had lied to him about being a commoner from Volantis. Perhaps Cat will (try to) alert him to it when they talk again.

    However, Talisa’s hardly the only character with an interesting back story that we new viewers are not (yet) privy to. Consider, for example, Bronn:

    (show-based speculation ahead)

    – in season 1, someone – I forget who – asked Bronn who his father was. He replied “Oh, you wouldn’t know him.” I don’t remember the exact episode, but it was around the time Tyrion was a prisoner at the Eyrie.

    – in episode 18, Bronn knew how to correctly pronounce the name of the archmaester who wrote the tome about the great sieges of Westeros. Varys pronounced it the same way, but Tyrion had struggled. I’m guessing the archmaester wasn’t born in Westeros but had moved there later in life. Does that mean both Varys and Bronn are foreigners, perhaps even from the same region? That’s possible, but Varys the diplomat could also have picked up the correct pronounciation from someone else. Bronn in turn might have learnt it from him off-screen, e.g. if Varys had offered him that tome before presenting it to Tyrion.

    – The TV show made it look as if Bronn read the cover of the tome before pronouncing the author’s name. In Westeros, it’s unusual for a commoner to be literate but then again, Bronn evidently did spend time inside at least one city that suffered a long siege. Perhaps he learnt to read there. Of course, if he is a foreigner, the region he comes from might have put great stock in literacy, even for commoners (cp. early Islam vs. Christendom’s dark ages). Then again, if Varys showed that tome to Bronn off-screen before Tyrion started poring over it. Perhaps Bronn just recognized it from its heft, the color of the cover and/or the pattern of the title and decided to show off. His general disdain of books echoed that of Grenn and Dolorous Edd of the Night’s Watch, both of whom are probably illiterate.

    – in episode 19, Bronn uses the word “enhance”, which strikes Tyrion as unusually fancy for a sellsword. Bronn replies that’s he’s been hanging out wih fancy people, but we don’t know who they might be. Varys perhaps? If so, why? However, it’s equally possible that Bronn is actually educated and doesn’t want Tyrion to know that. So, maybe he just made that excuse up. Back in character, we see him in a tavern, singing the Rains of Castamere with his city watch boys next to a burnt effigy (presumably of Stannis) before undressing the whore on his lap. Perhaps that effigy is why the Hound tries to pick a fight with Bronn, perhaps he’s just disgusted with his style of leadership, perhaps he also suspects there’s more to Bronn than meets the eye.

  124. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Rinso:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    Your surmise of the army numbers is somewhat correct , but you have one or two things wrong.

    NOW BEWARE, NEWBIES, HERE BE SPOILERS.

    I appreciate that you took the time to respond to me, but please consider the following:

    – spoiler tags must be applied to each parapgraph separately.

    – in the New Viewer Recap threads ONLY, references to the books are not welcome/allowed, even if you put them in spoiler tags and add an extra warning. The object of these threads is to limit discussion to what was shown in the TV show. Just to be on the safe side, I put my extrapolations from that in spoiler tags because there are no speculation tags. This wasn’t intended as an invitation to respond with book spoilers on this thread, tagged or otherwise. Had I chosen to post my speculation on the main recap thread, your response would have been most welcome. However, the New Viewer threads are a special corner of WiC.net, please respect that the rules are different here.

    – please also keep in mind that the showrunners have actually altered some storylines, so whatever is in the books is anyhow not “the truth” – it’s just the original version of the story. In the TV show, Stannis told Davos that “all” of Renly’s bannermen except for the Tyrells had switched to his side. The Tyrells fled that encampment early in the morning, almost as quickly as Cat and Brienne had. Margaery asked Loras to “fetch the horses”. All of this implied that the Tyrell contingent was far too weak to take on Stannis’ forces at that time.

    – since you are a book reader, ONLY respond to comments on New Viewer threads if you’re disciplined enough to limit your statements to information from the TV show plus general knowledge of medieval life, military matters etc. Alternatively, perhaps you could simply amuse yourself by reading how new viewers like myself are trying to make sense – or nonsense ;^) – of the show, without offering up a book-based “correction”. Thank you very much for your co-operation.

  125. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    What he said, people! :) Thank you.

  126. Langkard
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    I read the books, multiple times, and I refrain from posting in these threads – usually. I love reading the posts here. I love the sense of wonder and an appreciation of the series which is different from my own. I don’t trust myself to not post something spoilery. I read here, but I don’t post here (well, except this one time). The readers have a thread in which to post. There is no need for us to post here as well. Read it and enjoy, don’t post and spoil the enjoyment of others. They’re called spoilers for a reason.

  127. Sceven
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters:

    Hound’s defection was definitely the best part of the episode for me, and the only surprising part.I wish Sansa had gone with him!He would have protected her greatly as well, now she has more horror to endure.Well, like I said in an earlier thread, it seems she really wants to be in that world.She had a chance to leave it tonight and she turned it down.

    I really got the feeling that she left with him. You only see the doll’s face as he walks away, I think its a symbol of her really becoming a woman and taking her own life into her hands. I think she chose to go.

  128. Sceven
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress,

    She is the woman that Robb in engaged to already the daughter of the lord with the twin castles and the bridge. At least that is what I remember him saying when they got all freaky with each other.

  129. The Mourning Star
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    To: All involved in this thread,

    THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS OR BAD GUYS; THEY ARE JUST PEOPLE FIGHTING FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT!

    Each family has those things that are honorable and those things that are not. Starks: Ned cheated on his wife; Rob, cheats on his arranged marriage, Arya hires a hitman to take care of her business

    Baratheons: Stannis invokes the black arts, cheats on his wife, kills his brother. Renly plots to take the Iron Throne. Well, ok, Joffery is EVIL (yes, he is a baratheon)

    Lannisters: True, Cersei is power hungry and somewhat crazy, but she loves her children almost to a fault and wants to keep them safe, no matter what.

    Jamie, although nailin’ his sister, he is loyal to her, he killed the King to protect the city from the King.

    Tyrion, is an honorable man (halfman?) he truely cares for others and believes that most people deserve respect.

    Greyjoys: I’ll get back to you on this one.

  130. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    The Mourning Star,

    I wouldn’t really consider those acts by the Starks anywhere near as dishonorable as some of the acts by the other families. In fact, I think the Starks are the victims of the shows theme: Honor gets you absolutely nowhere.

  131. SillyMammo
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown,

    Same here! I’m a book reader too, but I love coming and reading the new viewers comments and speculations. I promise to never give any spoilers. Maybe book readers should have to sign a pledge to never give spoilers here before being allowed in this section. :0)

  132. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    The problem is that book readers very often DO give away hints or spoilers without meaning to. Even with the best of intentions, it happens very often. So that’s why it’s ideal that the book-readers post in the other thread when they want to discuss the episodes.

  133. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    I Know of Fear,

    See how lucky we are that they decided to show the battle!
    http://www.starpulse.com/news/Casey_Johnson/2012/05/29/game_of_thrones_battle_of_the_blackwat

    Producers of HBO’s hit Game of Thrones were left in a bind when they had to plan the series’ memorable Battle of Blackwater, due to budget constraints. In fact, the first plan was to have the entire battle off-screen.

    Much like stage plays, producers and writers were going to have battle updates coming from a messenger. The maidens of the castle gathered in Maegor’s Holdfast to wait out the battle with the castle’s executioner – who was there to give the women a clean death instead of leaving them to the occupying forces.

    Imagine, for a moment, a man running on screen and announcing “There was this huge green explosion and it was awesome!” Not quite the same impact of the spectacle we saw Sunday night.

    “For budgetary reasons we came very, very close to having all the action take place off-screen, the way plays have handled battle scenes for a few thousand years… Cersei and Sansa would be cooped up in there with the other noblewomen and children, hearing occasional reports from the battlements,” said producer David Benioff to Entertainment Weekly. “We went down on bended knee [to HBO]: ‘Just this once. Please.’ We were genuinely nervous about it for the whole time until we finally wrapped it. The impressive thing about the conversation where we went in asking for more money, a considerable sum, in order to shoot the Blackwater battle.”

  134. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Sceven,

    Whaaaat?

    I thought he wished he was engaged to her. The woman he is engaged to he has never seen.

    Also, I agree with you about Sansa leaving. I really hope she left.

  135. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    I like your theories on Bronn. Another person I want to know more about is Jon Snow. I just think its so strange that Ned didnt tell him about his mother. Who else will have that information now that Ned is dead. Maybe Jon is not really Ned’s son. I find it ill-fitting with Ned’s character that he would have an adulterous relationship. What if Jon Snow was really a Baratheon?

  136. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Gatorfisch,

    If you know that is what happened to Cersi presumably from the book, why are you spoiling it for us non book readers and revealing it here?

    Any book reader that comes to the non-book reader section of the blog, just to post spoilers is a narcissist.

  137. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress,

    I really think Jon Snow is Ned’s sister’s child.

  138. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress,

    It’s not a spoiler, it’s nothing to do with Cersei. He’s referring to Elia, wife of Rhaegar, and their children. They have come up in the series and their deaths mentioned. This is all stuff that happened way before the events of Game of Thrones happened.

  139. Wyglaaf
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    I just wanted to support Langkard’s post about how awesome the new viewer threads are. I have sworn off reading the book reader threads because I can’t stand the incessant whining from book purists who can’t deal with adaptation (or foolishly feel THEY “could have done it better”, he-heh). This place lets book readers like me re-live vicariously through you all the joy of all the wonderful shocking twists and turns, the shifting alliances, changing perspectives and emotional wringers you get put through during the course of this story.

    Thank WiC for keeping someplace pure!

  140. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    ok thanks!

  141. Brandlyn
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Screaming Tyrion!!!! He simply cannot be dead…. I live for his scenes, every word he says is clever (kudos to the writers) but I suspect he adds in a good bit of improvisation. This is my all time favorite show in the history of TV shows. I would like to see a significant bad guy get whats coming to them; the wins and loses seem a bit uneven. Someone has to pay for Ned Stark; Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey; I would accept anyone of them at this point. Has everyone forgotten about Gendry he is Roberts actual heir; cannot he not come into the throne because he is a bastard? Stannis has the legitimate claim because most people are unaware of Gendry’s existence.

  142. Restore The Day
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    There were too many whines in the other thread…. So now half of the posts in this thread are whines about how the other thread is full of whines? Get over it people, just read and lurk, don’t spoil, no need to high five everyone to no end.
    That being said, this week there’s zero whine in the other thread. Enjoy while it lasts :)

  143. Zach Zeeman
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    plus it is information given out on the DVD/Bluray extras of the first season. They basically tell the whole story Robert’s Rebellion and a lot of other history of Westeros as well…

  144. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: I really think Jon Snow is Ned’s sister’s child.

    So do I! Why wouldn’t he have told his wife though? That’s the part I find intriguing. I think it’s the love child of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. He has dark kinda curly hair like Robert.

  145. Jules
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Actually, Bronn did NOT pronounce the Archmaester’s name correctly. Neither he nor Tyrion said it right, and then when Varys came in, he said it correctly.

    Other than that, regarding your post, I’m not really sure we’re ever going to learn all the background of Bronn. I’m sure he’s got some interesting stories, but I don’t think it’s ever going to be relevant to the show, so I don’t think we’re ever going to find out.

  146. Jules
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Love child of Ned and Robert? So who gave birth? ;)

  147. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    For me, one of the great successes of this episode was the exquisite darkness at its start. You could barely make out the contours of the ships or even the sky against the black sea. You had to turn all the lights out to see it properly on the screen (which I did). As a filmmaker myself, I know that too often night scenes are perfectly and overly lit. I loved how they just let it be in blackness.

    For me that was a little treasure, a great choice, hidden in the clash of story here … an aahhh moment … to be allowed to behold and feel that darkness.

  148. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Jules,

    Ned’s sister. reread the quote.

  149. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Brandlyn: Gendry he is Roberts actual heir; cannot he not come into the throne because he is a bastard? Stannis has the legitimate claim because most people are unaware of Gendry’s existence.

    Brothers, in birth order, get it before bastard children. Bastard children have no legitimate claim, although neither did Renly and nor did Joffrey. So it’s all about power and who is going to go for it and win. If a bastard child was willing to make the move he might win, which is why Joffrey had them all slaughtered. But by the laws, no, they are not heirs to the throne. Anyone can make a play though. Robert Baratheon wasn’t heir to the throne when he took it either.

  150. Eooorrrr????
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters: Brothers, in birth order, get it before bastard children.Bastard children have no legitimate claim, although neither did Renly and nor did Joffrey.So it’s all about power and who is going to go for it and win.If a bastard child was willing to make the move he might win, which is why Joffrey had them all slaughtered.But by the laws, no, they are not heirs to the throne.Anyone can make a play though.Robert Baratheon wasn’t heir to the throne when he took it either.

    Basically that. Gendry would only really be a threat if others decided they wanted their own canidate for the throne. The bastards weren’t killed due to the Ned Starks, but more so due to the Littlefingers and others who wouldn’t mind haven’t their own claimant.

  151. Rinso
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Okay, I was really trying to be as vague as possible just to be helpful for newbies who have difficulties sorting things out. I hope I haven’t ruined anyone’s pleasure but I’m pretty confident that I never gave away anything that was not already implied or said outright in the show. My only goal was to help if anyone is confused – and I know how confusing this whole huge story seems when you face it for the first time.

    So, peace and sorry if I spoiled anything of actual importance (though I tried really hard not to, I should get A for effort for that!) :)

  152. Restore The Day
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    C’mon WDNS! Show us that Greyjoy face of yours!

  153. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!,

    I have heard that theory before, but really if it is his sister’s child, why would he have to hide that from his wife. I cant imagine that it is easier to pretend you had an affair, than to tell her, its my sister’s kid. It obiviously caused some heartache for Cat-if you remember the scene where Jaime taunts her about Neds lack of honour.

  154. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Eooorrrr????,

    Well no matter who gets the throne in the interim Daenerys Targaryen is going to be the victor in the end.

    I feel like Daenerys never gets enough screen time. I am waiting for that to change in the next season.

  155. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress,

    God I hate Daenerys. If she never god her dragons back, and she was forced to rot in Qarth forever, I would not feel bad. I just feel she is really entitled and bratty.

  156. gotgotgot
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    I just rewatched this episode again.

    Still just great to watch.
    Tyrion!! I hope he is ok. But I am wondering If he is screwed now because he is no longer hand of the king, He really has no powers unless Joffery gives him some kind of cool title.. although in ep 10 promo it shows Tywin is named saviour of the city or whatever. Which makes me nervous for Tyrion. Also.. Tyrion being attacked by the kings guardsmen.. means joffery or cerci must have ordered it!!!!

    Sansa!! I hope she goes with the hound. You cant really tell from the ep10 promo.. because littlefijnger is talking to sansa.. no clue where they are though.

    John Snow I really Am not caring for him or his story at all. AT first he seemed like he was a great fighter.. but he is showing to just be really stupid and clueless. Can he even fight good? Uhhgg disappointed in this character.

    Love cerci, her acting is amazing and you never know wtf she is going to do next.
    The whole time she was drinking wine with sansa I was looking for that poison to be poured in!!! At every sip!! . Of course we see it at the very end with her son.. But still during the wine drinking we had no idea where that poison was so it was even more intense watching it for me.

    The hound is still great. So great. To bad he didnt go chop off jofferys head. Instead he just said F it and left…

  157. Mike
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Udi:
    loco73,

    Do yourself a favor. Do NOT read ‘A Storm of Swords’. Tough as it will be (I know, I know), I think you will be better off waiting till S3 ends and THEN read ASOS. Just my humble opinion as a book-reader.

    Unfortunately, that would mean waiting for 2 years. Whoever asked, just read the book if you really want. By the time next year rolls around, you won’t remember enough of the details for it to affect anything.

  158. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!,

    Can you tell me what it is you like about Theon and why you’ve taken him as your namesake? I guess he has a conscience, I appreciate that …. but he doesn’t really listen to it that often. Why do you identify with him?

  159. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    I have to say I find it a little intimidating that the next book is called “A Storm of Swords.” It seems like it’s been a storm of swords all along, right from the beginning. How much worse could it get?

  160. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    I like your theories on Bronn. Another person I want to know more about is Jon Snow. I just think its so strange that Ned didnt tell him about his mother. Who else will have that information now that Ned is dead. Maybe Jon is not really Ned’s son. I find it ill-fitting with Ned’s character that he would have an adulterous relationship. What if Jon Snow was really a Baratheon?

    All the show gave us were two tidbits of information:

    – when Robert and Ned had lunch on the road, they exchanged memories of past battles and past indiscretions.

    – when Jon left for the Wall, Ned assured him he was a Stark, but he did not reveal the identity of Jon’s mother.

    ===

    speculation based on the show and HBO’s viewer guide

    Scenario A: Ned did indeed have a fling and he brought the baby home. It’s possible, though unlikely, that Ned’s character wasn’t as pure as the driven snow back then.

    Scenario B: Jon is Brandon’s bastard son. Ned’s older brother is deceased and never married (source: HBO’s viewer guide season 2). It seems unlikely that the heir to Winterfell would father a bastard child. Moreover, in this scenario there would be no reason for Ned to keep Jon’s true parentage a secret, as bastards have no claim to the throne nor to the seat of Winterfell.

    Scenario C: Jon is Benjen’s bastard son. It’s (barely) conceivable he might have been with a girl just before heading off to join the celibate order of the NW, never knowing that he had inadvertently knocked her up. Ned would have found out and brought the child to Winterfell, pretending it was his to protect Benjen from ever regretting taking the black. However, in this scenario, there would have been no reason for Ned not to come clean with Jon when he voluntarily left for the Wall himself. It also seems implausible that Ned would never have told at least Catelyn.

    Scenario D: Jon is Lyanna’s son. We heard about her when Brandon took Osha down to the crypt in Winterfell. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert and his one true love. She was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen and died in Ned’s arms during a rescue attempt (source: HBO Viewers Guide season 2). There is nothing to indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna ever got married in secret, indeed he may already have been married to Elia Martell at the time of the kidnapping. In this scenario, Jon would be Rhaegar’s bastard, possibly a result of rape. Again, illegitimate children never have a claim to the throne. Even so, Ned would have wanted to keep his ties to Rhaegar absolutely secret from Robert. Ned would have claimed Jon as his own to protect his nephew’s life. He declined to come clean to Jon to make sure he would take the black, thus taking himself out of Westerosi politics.

    Scenario E: Ned lied about Jon being a Stark. Based on what we know at this point, that makes no sense.

    IMHO, scenarios A and D are both plausible. Your idea that Jon is a Baratheon doesn’t make sense to me, please explain.

  161. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Jules:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    Actually, Bronn did NOT pronounce the Archmaester’s name correctly. Neither he nor Tyrion said it right, and then when Varys came in, he said it correctly.

    Hmmm. I distinctly remember Varys pronouncing it the same way Bronn had, at which point Tyrion pointed a finger toward Bronn to confirm the sellword had got it right.

  162. Black as Snow
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    gotgotgot: Tyrion!! I hope he is ok. But I am wondering If he is screwed now because he is no longer hand of the king,

    I think he would still be hand of the king, if he survives (and he would look badass with a huge scar across his face). After all, Tywin still has a war to fight — some unfinished business with Robb Stark.

  163. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Hmmm…I guess my love for Theon is mostly rooted in pity. The situation he was put in earlier on in the season was one of the most perplexing storylines of the show. Does he side with the Starks who by all accounts treated him well but never really accepted him? ( Robb kind’ve talked down to him when he saved Bran’s life, which sticks out the most. There were other instances as well). Or does he side with his family, the Greyjoys who treat him like shit, but share his blood? It is a very interesting moral dilemma to contemplate, and I guess I just feel bad for him. He only wants to please, but he is trying to please so many people at once that it just ends in turmoil.

    People will say “He betrayed Robb after Robb accepted him” yada yada yada, but do you really think all those years of growing up together and Theon being excluded from Stark activities can be erased by a promise or two?

    I don’t defend any of Theon’s actions. Yes, they are dishonorable. But so are 99 % of the characters on the show. He is a human tugrope and he has no real sense of self worth. I just have a soft spot in my heart for the guy and I’d love to see him succeed at something that was his idea (example: Taking and holding Winterfell)

    Plus, the gold kracken on the black is by far the most badass sigil ;)

  164. death to lannisters
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!: Robb kind’ve talked down to him when he saved Bran’s life, which sticks out the most. There were other instances as well

    I agree with you, he’s in a really tough position. But even if the Starks didn’t truly accept him, they accepted him a lot more than his “blood” family. And if trust isn’t a form of acceptance, what is? Robb did trust him, which I suppose was acceptance too far. I guess he shouldn’t have treated him as kin because he wasn’t kin – Theon proved that point anyhow.

    I agree with you he has no self worth and that makes me feel bad for him. But his twisted way with women disabused me of a lot of my sympathy.

    The only parts that made me like him were the fact that he had conscience about the killing that he did – both of the old man and the farmer’s boys – indicated by face expressions and other giveaways like him wanting the bodies removed or his impulse to reward the farmer with gold. I have some sympathy for him, but not an overwhelming amount.

  165. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 29, 2012 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    Reminder- NO SPOILERS are permitted in New Viewer Threads. Not even veiled, vague or blacked out ones.

  166. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Another random thing I thought about is how stupid of Cersei to drop that vile and let it shatter? If it’s really that poisonous, just a trace of it on the clothes could later kill her or the kid. Or, upon shattering, little droplets could be released. Just seemed really sloppy. Minor detail.

    I also have to say, this was the first time I really started to like Shae. How could you not like her when Tryion loves her SO much. I like her loyalties. I finally trust her.

    One last question: what will happen to Tyrion? Will he have some good lovin’ nurture time with Shae while he heals? Will he be out of power? How will he react to realizing that he was the victim of friendly fire (or friendly axing as it were)? If he IS on the sidelines or in any way temporarily banished from power as a result of his wounding and/or Joffrey’s solidified strength and/or the presence of Tywin, I’ll be happy. Then I can just hate the whole damn Lannister bunch left in the castle unabashedly and wish bloody siege on them all. Couldn’t do that before, cause I had a soft spot for the dwarf. But with him temporarily removed, to hell with all of them!!! Maybe his wounding was good timing for him!

  167. Weirwood
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    In Season 1 Ned told Jon “You may not have my name but you do have my blood”. And then told him that the next time he saw Jon he would tell him more about his mother.

    So Jon IS related to Ned by blood, and it looks like Ned took the truth of Jon’s mom to his grave.

  168. Mike
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters:
    Another random thing I thought about is how stupid of Cersei to drop that vile and let it shatter?If it’s really that poisonous, just a trace of it on the clothes could later kill her or the kid.Or, upon shattering, little droplets could be released.Just seemed really sloppy.Minor detail.

    I also have to say, this was the first time I really started to like Shae.How could you not like her when Tryion loves her SO much.I like her loyalties.I finally trust her.

    One last question:what will happen to Tyrion?Will he have some good lovin’ nurture time with Shae while he heals?Will he be out of power?How will he react to realizing that he was the victim of friendly fire (or friendly axing as it were)?If he IS on the sidelines or in any way temporarily banished from power as a result of his wounding and/or Joffrey’s solidified strength and/or the presence of Tywin, I’ll be happy.Then I can just hate the whole damn Lannister bunch left in the castle unabashedly and wish bloody siege on them all.Couldn’t do that before, cause I had a soft spot for the dwarf.But with him temporarily removed, to hell with all of them!!! Maybe his wounding was good timing for him!

    Maester Pycell told her that consuming 1 drop reduced anxiety, 3 a dreamless sleep, and 10 death. It isn’t acid and I’m sure it has to enter your bloodstream in some way to take effect. Even if a shard hit her in the leg, through her skirts, that would only be a drop. No big deal.

    Also, after watching this show, I don’t see how you could trust anyone-especially Shae of all people. She’s done nothing to prove her loyalties, acts entitled beyond her station, and oh yeah, she’s a whore.

    P.S. Where are you We Do Not Sow?!

  169. Jyl
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 3:15 am | Permalink

    DarkEmpress,

    it could be true that Jon is a baratheon. he has the same hair
    but why would Ned have taken him?

  170. E. Stovall
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 3:29 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    You are entirely correct regarding heirs to a throne. Henry VIII had a number of illegitimate children —–including those boys who he was so desperate for. Regardless, the only children who could LEGALLY get to the throne were those children who came from marriage. Even then, boys came first. That’s why Henry’s son with Jane Seymore (Edward- who followed in Henry’s footsteps but died very young) came to the English throne BEFORE Mary (daughter of Henry and Catherine of Aragon) and Elizabeth (daughter of Henry and Anne Bolyn). Could illegitimate sons (or daughters) challenge for the throne? Yes…..theoretically. Was it likely? NOOOOOOOO.

    So what about those illegitimate kids of those rascal kings? If the king was a decent sort of guy, those kids might be given titles, property, or married off to respectable folks – especially if their mama came from a powerful family. Sometimes those kids were ignored!

    By the way. Have you noticed that since the wedding of William and Kate (well actually, it has been an on-going debate in England for a zillion years) – the question of birth order and who can ascend to the English throne has been a pretty hot topic. The current thought now is that should William ever actually become king, it would be his FIRSTBORN child who would follow him to the throne – whether a boy or a girl. Yea England! It’s about time.

    Sorry for the lecture. Retired teacher here – who obviously likes this stuff a lot!

  171. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 5:04 am | Permalink

    Theon Rules!,

    In one post you brought up knowledge from the books, even if only 400 pages of the first one, so I deleted that. Great discussion in other threads otherwise.

  172. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Weirwood:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    In Season 1 Ned told Jon “You may not have my name but you do have my blood”. And then told him that the next time he saw Jon he would tell him more about his mother.

    So Jon IS related to Ned by blood, and it looks like Ned took the truth of Jon’s mom to his grave.

    Thank you for digging up the quote. The part “You may not have my name” refers to Jon Snow, i.e. Jon isn’t a legitimate son of Ned’s, i.e. Catelyn is definitely not his mother.

    At face value, the part “you have my blood” does mean Ned is his father. He mentioned a woman’s name to Robert at that lunch, IIRC it was Wylla. The implicit suggestion to the viewers was that she was supposedly Ned’s fling and Jon’s mother.

    ===

    speculation:

    However, “you have my blood” could also be the perpetuation of a lie that Ned chose to tell Jon (and everyone else) all through his life. Given Ned’s general honesty, this would make sense only if Jon’s life would be at great risk if knowledge of his true parentage ever reached the wrong ears. If anyone else knew, Ned would have sworn them to the same cover story. Theoretically, someone who knows the truth could still be alive and kicking.

    ===

    Ned told Jon he’d reveal his mother’s identity at a later date, i.e. after Jon had taken the black. It’s possible Ned simply felt that deserved a longer conversation than he had time for at that moment, as Robert wanted him in King’s Landing asap. On the other hand, Ned had already had all the time in the world to have that talk with Jon. When they parted ways, it had been Jon who broached the subject, suggesting that Ned had been avoiding it for decades.

    Pls refrain from responding to this comment with book spoilers, tagged or not. Thank you.

  173. SeVv
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    where is WDNS???

  174. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Jyl: it could be true that Jon is a baratheon. he has the same hair
    but why would Ned have taken him?

    I think he is – but that is based on nothing but a hunch. It’s out of Ned’s character to act dishonorably. And the kid looks like Robert Baratheon to me, with the curly black hair. Remember how much Robert loved Ned’s sister? (who we haven’t met yet). I think it was their love child. I think Ned took the child as his own to protect both of their honor – the King’s and his sister’s. I’m not sure the backstory, but maybe he also did it to protect the child – why was his sister killed again? Maybe if she had enemies, he didn’t want those enemies to kill the child. But if this is true that Jon Snow is the love child of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark’s sister, why wouldn’t he have told his wife, Catelyn to save her the heartache of believing he’d cheated on her? This is a mystery. Perhaps he thought she’d never bear the public humiliation of having a bastard in her family if she knew it weren’t true, so that was the only way for him to save the child’s identity. I really don’t know. I’ve heard someone say that Jon Snow might be the love child of Ned’s sister and one of the Targaeryns, but I don’t know how that can be true seeing as they are all white blonde of hair.

  175. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin: “you have my blood” does mean Ned is his father.

    I disagree. It doesn’t mean he’s the father. It means they have the same blood. Which means Ned could actually be the uncle. Jon Snow has Stark blood of some kind, but I think Ned’s statement is open to interpretation. He didn’t say, “I am your father.”

  176. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    E. Stovall,

    Jyl,

    The hair is the reason why I was resistant to the idea that he was a Targaryean. Aren`t the Targaryeans all blonde/white haired?

    Also, I seem to vaguely remember Ned complaining of all ways having to take care of Robert’s mistakes or something to that effect.

    The promise Lyanna Stark’s extracted from Ned could be anything. Maybe she made him promise to always look out for Robert which is why he became the hand of the king although he really did not want to.

  177. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Mike: after watching this show, I don’t see how you could trust anyone-especially Shae of all people.

    I don’t completely trust her, but I trust her more than I did. She’s been good to both Tyrion and Sansa, pretty consistently so far. I do think she’s a noble woman from somewhere, hiding her identity, but I still like her better than I did.

  178. ANiceChianti
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    It seems to me that some characters that have been paying attention so far (eg: Ned, Jon Arryn, maybe Stannis) have been able to suss out at least a rudimentary application of Mendelian genetics, and how it is relevant in Westerosi society.

    Maybe we should go back and study our 7th grade biology notes. I don’t know whether or not it will end up being relevant in the future, but it certainly played an important role last season!

  179. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Lord of Light: I feared, just as Ser Davos feared, that bringing Melisandre along would see the end of Stannis once the battle was won by the Baratheons so that she could have the Seven Kingdoms for herself.

    I don’t think the implication was that she would do away with Stannis. I think her power in a sense depends on him. But, she would certainly dominate, and she would rule with the dark powers as they call it, which would be quite dangerous for all. I think her power depends on Stannis. For example, she wouldn’t have been able to conceive the shadow baby without him. If she didn’t need him, she would just go take the throne by herself, through her own magic. So I don’t think she would dispense with him. But certainly she would use him, and she would have the upper hand.

    I think you’re right. I think Stannis will retreat and they will hatch a new and more dangerous plot together.

  180. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    I was reflecting on how Cersei was telling Tommen the story of the lion (Lannister sigil) being attacked by the stag (Baratheon sigil) when she was about to poision him and the fact that Cersei confessed to Tyrion that Jamie fathered her children. I think this means that very soon (in the finale) the fact that there is not a Baratheon on the throne will become widespread knowledge. Now that Cersei probably tried to have Tyrion killed, what is really motivating him to keep the secret? Sure, it benefits the Lannisters as a whole to have a Lannister in power, but the more power that Cersei and Joffery have, the more danger Tyrion himself is in. Plus, there is the fact that Cersei is now very suspicious of Shae. Did anyone else laugh out loud, when Tyrion put on his best mask of sincerity and promised the whore Cersei had mistakenly captured that he would do everything he could to free her? At the very least I think Tyrion will tell his father the truth about Cersei and Jamie.

  181. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress: At the very least I think Tyrion will tell his father the truth about Cersei and Jamie.

    Interesting. I’m not sure the father cares. He just wants power for the family name, the legacy, that all will fear them, as he explained to Jamie last season and Arya this season. If it’s a pure Lannister bloodline and not a Baratheon on the throne, all the better from his perspective. Now Lannisters control not only the power behind the throne, but the throne as well.

    A question I have is what will Jamie do when he comes back and finds out what a total asshole his son is? Will he care? Will he like it?

  182. I Know of Fear
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    I don’t think Tywin cares about incest either. He aspires to have a leagcy that will rival the Targaryen’s, and I think he’d just like to consolidate power by any means necessary. I’m more concerned about Shae, because even though I don’t trust her I’ve grown to like the character and hope Tyrion is able to protect her from his family. But Tyrion may be out of commision for a while, which is too bad because he was just earning the respect (from his father he chose him to be Hand and from the army who chanted Halfman).

    I also don’t think Jaime will care about Joffrey being so… screwed up. Jamie is simple man who never cared about the Game. The good of the kingdom isn’t his concern at all. Just put a sword in his hand and he’ll be content. In season 1 Cersei seemed to deride Ned by saying “you’re just a soldier aren’t you?” and I get the feeling she was thinking about her unambitious, all too carefree lover as she said it. Besides, Joffrey has liekly displayed enough cruelty in the past that Jaime won’t be totally surprised at what has happened since Robert died.

  183. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    you know what horrifies me? Cersei’s mouth. it is so ugly.

    you know what would please me? a slow sawing off of Joffrey’s head while Cersei is made to watch.

  184. Thiago Slash
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    does anyone know if something happened to We Do Not Sow?
    is he still gonna post hios thoughts here someday? ^^

  185. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Thiago Slash:
    does anyone know if something happened to We Do Not Sow?
    is he still gonna post hios thoughts here someday? ^^

    Maybe he perished in a big epic cinematic green explosion from hell….Oh wait, you mean that wasn’t real? Coulda fooled me.

  186. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Okay here’s one more droplet of thought for Lord of Light, Theon Rules, Dark Empress and others who frequent this chat.

    It seems to me Cersei killed King Robert. (Remember Varys’ line to Ned, “the wine slowed him down, but it was your mercy that killed him” – meaning your mercy in giving Cersei a chance to flee.) Do you think we are going to get a flashback of this scene at some point? Knowing her, how do you think she went about it – just killed him outright or let him know before she did the horror of the fact that Joffrey was not his son but her love child with Jamie? did she deliver some scathing line to torture him with to his grave? were there any witnesses? It would be so interesting to know. But I am certain she killed him. He was on a downward spiral with his wound from the pig, but still the timing of it came as a surprise to everyone. She must have finished him off. She may even have been responsible for putting some kind of poison in the wine that would make him bleed out (instead of clotting) when the boar wounded him. I hope we get a flashback of these final moments at some point.

    I’m curious what y’all think.

  187. Thiago Slash
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Theon Rules!,

    hahaha me too.
    well, here he is now!

    nice to see his excitement and “predictions” =P

  188. The Young Wolf
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Doesn’t using shadowbaby severely weaken Stannis? So using it to take out Joffrey(if it could kill Joffrey, he was wearing heavy armour) doesn’t do much for him if he’s too weak to be King.

    “Those are brave men knocking on our door. Let’s go kill them!” – Amazing line.

  189. PegasusZ
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    I’m still trying to get over the shock of The Hound speaking! All this time he’s said little or nothing and now suddenly in one episode he went on like a professor!
    Am I surprised Joffrey bailed on them? Of course not. Am I crazy happy The Hound went “F*** the king!” Yup, love him even more.
    This episode was such a SanSan episode I LOVED it!!! :D

    Tyrion better not be dead!

  190. Mike
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    What makes WDNS think Sansa left with the Hound? She straight up said she was going to stay in KL. Or is this a prediction?

  191. Jyl
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    his sister was killed in that war against the taegaryans but they didn’t say who killed her.

    the reason he didn’t tell Cat, will always be a mystery i think. I don’t think the book readers have a clue either

  192. NedsDeadBaby
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Long time lurker, first time poster.

    With the way this show and story plays out, it doesn’t seem like you can ever be fully sure of what’s going to happen. I’ve read ¾ of A Game of Thrones but I’ve forgotten most of what I read so everything is based off the show and the way my twisted little mind works. With that said, here are a couple of thoughts. I put the spoiler tag on in case folks don’t want to read my thoughts.

    Sansa doesn’t go with the Hound. Although it’s tempting as hell to get the f** outta King’s Landing. I can see The Hound being hunted down by Joffrey. He’s far too egotistical to allow anyone to tell him to ‘F-OFF’ and get away with it. Even though Sansa doesn’t know what The Hound did, she would still be in great danger if she left, even more so than if she stayed IMO. She’s not a road traveling girl like Arya is so I don’t think she’d do very well out there. I think she’s starting to learn to play the game a little and I enjoyed her digs at Joffrey before the battle started – ATTA Girl Sansa!! I can’t wait for her to see no blood on Joffrey’s sword. Now if she can get over her fear of Cersei, she’ll be good to go.

    Tyrion – What can you say about Tyrion. The guy is truly a (P)IMP! Since Ned’s untimely demise last season, Tyrion has been one of my favorites. He was in season 1 too, but now even more so. His digs at Joffrey seem to just fly over Joff’s head half the time. He seems to be the only one to stand up to him and not be threatened with death. That slap after the KL riot was a thing of beauty! He really is a good player of the game and to see him go into battle and not get knocked out right away was pretty cool. His speech…..executed perfectly. I am a little worried about him now though. Tywin is back – still fighting a war but back none the less. I’m sure Tywin will appreciate Tyrion trying to smack some sense into Joff at times and doing his best to protect the place. I don’t think Joff or Cersei can touch him now that he took the army and stopped the first wave, stopped the gates from being broken down and held them off till Tywin got there. But I said the same thing about Ned too. I’m hoping Tywin rips into Cersei and Joff.

    Jon – Aahhhh, good ole Jon Snow. There’s something about this kid that I haven’t pegged yet. He does seem brave and stupid and like he really does know nothing (thanks Ygritte), but he seems destined for something far greater than what he’s doing right now. I kept thinking that his mother was a noble who had a drunken night with Ned (drunk too), just because it seemed way off base and such a touchy subject even when Cat isn’t around. Or maybe it was another bastard from Robert and Ned was protecting them both during their early years, but why not at least tell Cat so she’d know and why hide it from your family? Maybe to protect them in case the crap hit the fan, or the blacksmith wheel, or the house of ill repute, etc?. Now that he’s up in Wildling Country, my thoughts go to his mom being a wildling, even though that seems even more out of character for Ned than other options … Or, just to throw myself off more, his mom was Lyanna, who was raped by a wildling at one point. Ned hid it from everyone, including Robert to keep him from starting a war with all the Wildlings. I don’t know…..I’m just getting this wildling vibe all of a sudden. I’m picturing Jon taking the Wildlings and converging on King’s Landing with Robb’s army..call me crazy.

    So sad that they can only do 10 episodes a season. This show could easily handle 16 episodes to really give you more of the story and spend a little more time with each character. That was a nice break this time around; being able to stay with one area and it was well deserved and very well done. The battle was really intense. Everyone did an excellent job of showing the fear and horror (sadistic lust if you’re Joff). The explosion was incredible. I can only imagine what that would be like to be sitting on the battlements and watch all those ships go up in green flames! The tension between Bronn and the Hound was really thick…I was expecting them to go at it. It was nice to see Bronn save him later on….only to have him pull a Scarface from Half Baked on everyone… F YOU! F YOU! YOU’RE COOL (Sansa), F YOU! I’M OUT!

    OK, so enough of my massive first posting. Sorry it’s so long.

  193. Omar Brown
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    NedsDeadBaby,

    I agree, the books are very dense and condensing them in 10 episodes is tricky. But the next book will be spread over 2 seasons, giving us essentially 20 episodes. Giving the story some room to breathe will be a gift.

  194. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Jamie himself is a sociopath, he did push Bran intending to kill him. He is just much better at concealing that he is a sociopath than Joffrey. There is also the disgusting fact that he is screwing his sister. The thing that I think will make Jamie and Tywin scorn Jofferey is that Jofferey is a coward who has no chance of earning glory as a knight. Tywin expects his son Tyrion who has an obvious physical disadvantage to fight, so I dont think he will accept any sort of excuse as to why Jofferey didnt lead his men to battle.

  195. JofreyMustDie
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    One topic I haven’t seen alot of discussion on is the huge character development in Sandor Clegane. Here we have a character defined by his obediance and loyalty to his lord (Jofrey), to the point where he’s called “hound”. He goes from that to “F— the king” simply because of his fear of fire? I think there’s more going on with him then we know. I’ll be interested to see where he ends up now.

  196. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    I am going to rewatch the episode where Robert died, but I think you are right.

  197. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    JofreyMustDie,

    What I am really excited about is the possibility that we will see Sandor fight his brother Gregor. Now that Sandor has abandoned the Lannisters I am sure Tywin will extend an invitation to Gregor to kill him. The fight between the two of them is sure to be epic. I was so shocked when Gregor killed his stallion last season. He really hates to lose.

  198. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Another thing that died with King Robert – laughter. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone laugh in this show since he died.

  199. We Do Not Sow
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    Just a prediction :)

  200. We Do Not Sow
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Thiago Slash,

    Sorry for the delay this week everyone, a few technical problems with our wifi.

  201. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    No one on the show may laugh, but Bronn makes me laugh all the time. Probably my favorite character!

  202. I Know of Fear
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Joffrey has laughed a few times, but I’m not sure he counts.

  203. death to lannisters
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress: I am going to rewatch the episode where Robert died, but I think you are right.

    You are such a nerd!!! Okay tell me what you think after you watch it. I think it’s the one that starts in the darkness of Ned’s captivity with Varys swinging the torch.

    Good point that Jamie will be disgusted by the cowardice of his son. He does know these are his kids right? Maybe he’ll kill Joffrey himself – it seems he has no boundaries, and everyone always talks about what a “pure” force his is. Yeah right, so is Joffrey, a pure sadist. Neither of them get my love for their “purity.” In any case, I don’t know why people always champion Jamie by saying “he doesn’t have any interest in the game” and all that. He seemed to have plenty interest in wounding or killing Ned Stark outside the whorehouse – supposedly in retaliation for Catelyn taking the dwarf hostage. So what was all that about if not the power game? (and blood line game, etc). And people always talk about how he’s such a master fighter, but if I remember correctly Ned was holding his own just fine, might even have gotten the upper hand if Jamie’s guy didn’t sneak up behind him and slash Ned in the leg to abort the fight. And he obviously couldn’t fight his way out of Robb’s forces. So far he’s been not much more than a perverted jerk. He still has to prove himself as a character.

    And on you wanting to see Hound and Mountain fight ….. NOOOooo! Mountain is the better fighter but Hound is the love.

    NedsDeadBaby: Long time lurker, first time poster.

    Why you lurk so long? post post! it’s only fun when a lot of people write

  204. Maester Victor
    Posted May 30, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the post, WDNS! The longer you were away the crazier, and more interesting, the predictions got :D

  205. seras
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    i thought it was fairly obvious that the hound left without sansa. she said no, didn’t she? either way, he slammed the door and split, leaving her behind.

  206. Weirwood
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters:
    Another thing that died with King Robert – laughter.I don’t think I’ve heard anyone laugh in this show since he died.

    Everyone within hearing distance laughed when Bronn predicted where his nose would be later that evening….. (well except maybe the Hound and Brad)….

  207. Malaclypse
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    WDNS,

    did you miss the part where Sansa refuses the Hound’s offer?!

  208. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    Malaclypse,

    Did she do so outright? I don’t think so …

  209. Udi
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Well, no way that can be answered since it would require a book-readers knowledge and that is rightly banned from this thread. But the 4th book is called ‘A Feast for crows’ which could raise the same question I guess. Anyway, most book-readers (myself included) agree that ‘A Storm of Swords’ is the best book of them all. So much as seasons 1 and 2 have been phenomenal, by all means look forward to seasons 3 and 4!

  210. We Do Not Sow
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Malaclypse,

    No i saw that but remember right after that where Sansa realizes that the hound won’t hurt her? (she told him she doesn’t have to make a decision until next Sunday night so right now she is sleeping on it)

  211. death to lannisters
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    I’d have to disagree with WDNS on the three stars of battle. I’m not sure Tywin deserves one. All he did was show up in the end with a whole lotta men. It saved the day for the Lannisters, but I wouldn’t say there was anything particularly genius or brave about it – all he had to do was show up.

    I’d give the third star to Stannis. Yes, he ultimately lost this battle, but dude was brave as hell – way out in front of his troops, first up the ladder, seemed like he was practically fighting guys alone up there, without a helmet taboot. His forces suffered spectacular setback in the beginning with the wildfire explosion but Stannis just kept it coming.

    Tryion and Stannis both proved themselves as seriously brave leaders in this battle.

  212. Theon Rules!
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    What about Podrick for a star in battle? He saved Tyrion’s bacon.

  213. serum
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    bronn says ch’valteesh and varys says ch’viathan….tyrions look was one of “thats how its pronounced bronn”

  214. serum
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    E. Stovall,

    Correct me if Im wrong. But as far as the throne is concerned, Queen Elizabeth (or whomever the monarch is at the time) will be the one to declare a successor. Right now the heir apparent is Charles but many people speculate that she will give the throne to William instead or that she will offer it to Charles as a form of courtesy and he will abdicate.

  215. Valyrian Made
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters:
    I’d have to disagree with WDNS on the three stars of battle.I’m not sure Tywin deserves one.All he did was show up in the end with a whole lotta men.It saved the day for the Lannisters, but I wouldn’t say there was anything particularly genius or brave about it – all he had to do was show up.

    I’d give the third star to Stannis.Yes, he ultimately lost this battle, but dude was brave as hell – way out in front of his troops, first up the ladder, seemed like he was practically fighting guys alone up there, without a helmet taboot.His forces suffered spectacular setback in the beginning with the wildfire explosion but Stannis just kept it coming.

    Tryion and Stannis both proved themselves as seriously brave leaders in this battle.

    Stannis is portrayed a bit differently in this episode than he is in the books, but I definitely agree 110% with this. I actually think you can draw even more conclusions about Stannis from this episode:

    He’s the first man off the boats, up the ladder, etc. BUT that doesn’t happen until AFTER the wildfire. Note that Stannis is with the troop transports on board his flagship (the ship with the stag head on it that Stannis is standing on in the opening minutes…in the books it is named Fury) while Davos is in charge of the vanguard. So at the onset of the battle, Stannis is in the customary commander’s position towards the rear of the attacking forces. Once the wildfire blows the fleet to hell, I think at that point Stannis makes the choice to literally lead the charge, as one of Stannis’ kingsguard makes a comment about 100s dieing, to which Stannis bluntly replies 1000s. Now on the surface, some people point out that this is indicative of Stannis not giving a damn how many die, but I don’t think it’s that simple. The wildfire has forced him to switch from passive commander to a more active one (since he was not in the vanguard at the onset, but effectively becomes the vanugard after the fleet is destroyed) and he knows that his direct participation is the best thing for his troops to see after such a catastrophic explosion. “Come with me and take the city” is all he needs to say because he is already practically one leg over his flagship and into his transport-the first of any to do so. Which is great for his men’s morale. So in a strange way…Stannis is so intent on capturing the iron throne, he is willing to not only fully realize he is putting thousands of lives in immediate and great risk, he also does so himself, where not 10 minutes before he was so far away from the front of his forces that his ship was relatively unscathed from such a huge explosion.

    This is placed against stark (no pun intended!) contrast with joffrey, who abandons his men despite lancel trying to convince cercei otherwise (“but your grace, the king’s presence is good for morale!”). Yeah, Varys is afraid of Stannis being in service to “dark powers,” but I don’t think anyone can ignore what quality of leadership Stannis would bring to the table if he sat the iron throne instead of joffrey.

  216. death to lannisters
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Made,

    Well, we know what kind of leader in battle he is, and some other bits of his character are revealed. Still, we don’t know what kind of King he would make. This remains a mystery to me.

    I like Stannis. I like that he is “a serious man” as Tyrion puts it. I like his courage in battle. I like his loyalty to men like Davos, who have no high station in life but have proved themselves and are deserving. I like his grit. I like his strict literalism – remember in his memo to the kingdom about his claim to the throne he insists on taking the word “beloved” out of the description of his brother King Robert (I didn’t love him), and calling Jamie KingSlayer (that’s what he is). No mincing or embellishing of words. It reminds me of that old line: “just the facts, and nothing but the facts,” and I like it.

    Still, I don’t know what kind of King he would make.

  217. Dangeresque
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    I dunno about that. Cersi at one time DID love Robert. I mean he was a strong warrior, battle tested, a legend of the rebellion against the evil King Aerys. I could see her having pity on the drunkard fool. Maybe a line about getting what he deserved. Think maybe the scene with Danys and Drogo only cold and cynical. The line about Joffery being Jaime’s child being the cherry on the sundae.

    I have to say Cersi was one of the supreme highlights of this episode. Masking her fear with the only strength she had known in her life, her fathers. When I watched it I couldn’t help but notice just how much she acted like her father. Better yet, the way she perceived her father to be. Cold, abrasive, calculating. Instilling fear in those around her to make herself look in control. It was quite brilliant actually.

    The scene in the throne room was especially poignant. The battle lost…Stannis moments away from storming the throne room, her head being fitted for a pike outside the city gates and her children slaughtered.No one to save them. Sitting on the iron throne with her youngest son ready to embrace death on her terms.The story she told, somewhat similar to what may have been told to Joffery years before. The Lion ruling over all the other animals of the great wood. A soft sprinkle of sugar to coat his dreams in his ever long sleep. I loved it.

  218. Dangeresque
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Jamie KingSlayer (that’s what he is).No mincing or embellishing of words.

    Make it Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer. Whatever else he is, the man’s still a knight.

  219. death to lannisters
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Dangeresque,

    Thank you! That’s the line! Love it.

  220. Sergey
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters:

    Still, I don’t know what kind of King he would make.

    I’ve got a feeling he would fall completely under control of his sorceress/priestess if he makes it to the throne. I don’t know if Davos survived the explosion, but if not then I would expect Stannis to really fold to her charms/powers as he would no longer have any voice of reason whispering in his ear.

  221. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Sergey,

    Is it possible for anyone to be a worse king that Jofferey? So far, Jofferey has had the butcher’s son killed, killed babies, mutilated whores, tried to strip and publicly beat Sansa for her brothers ‘crimes’, killed Ned after giving his word he would not and on top of his sociopathic behaviour he is a coward who cant even lead his soldiers in battle.

  222. DarkEmpress
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    Yes, I am a nerd and re-watched the scene in episode 8! Yeah, Varys does let Ned know that the time he gave Cersei to save the children, she took to kill Robert.

    Think of the scenario between the Hound and Bronn. The Hound told Bronn he was bigger and Bronn responded that he was quicker. Now in a fight between The Hound and his brother the Mountain, The Hound would be in the position of Bronn and he would be the quick one. The bigger they are the harder they fall. My money is on the Hound.

  223. Valyrian Made
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    He would make an interesting king I think. Assuming Mel doesn’t exert influence on him, I think Stannis would exert a considerable amount of equilibrium on westeros, which is rife with inequality that goes beyond mere socioeconomic castes. Of course he is very rigid with his thought process…but I don’t think he’s as rigid as he appears on the surface. Consider that he welcomed Mel into his inner circle. Let’s assume Stannis did not believe in R’hollor before he met Mel (can’t remember whether the show said he believed in the 7 or not before Mel came around). Nothing Stannis has shown in Season Two leads me to believe he is a religious man…Matthos is exponentially more taken away by this religion than Stannis himself as seen by Stannis’ brief participation in the Burning of the Seven while the rest of the devotees hang around. So basically, Stannis adapted/adopted this new religion and it has served him relatively well. I don’t think stannis believes like the rest do…I think he’s using it as a political tool. So that right there already makes him a better politician than joffrey.

    But there’s no mistake, if stannis were to be king, the High Septon in king’s landing would probably be thrown out and melisandre installed as the high religious prelate. is that good or bad? who knows

  224. death to lannisters
    Posted May 31, 2012 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Alright all you smart people, tell me another thing.

    In the HBO viewer guide, where it explains all the Houses, it doesn’t lists the Starks as a House. Are they part of someone else’s house? How could they not have their own? There’s even a House Greyjoy. I didn’t understand that.

    Also, is there more than one KingsGuard? I’ve always wondered who was protecting the King when Jamie was screwing his sister, or the Hound checking up on Sansa’s period. Which I found super creepy. Can you imagine getting your period for the first time and then having that guy come into your bedroom? Holy smokes. I love the Hound better now, but still, that was creepy as hell. Guess he was using his nose, as a Hound tends to ….

    Valyrian Made: Of course he is very rigid with his thought process…but I don’t think he’s as rigid as he appears on the surface.

    Yeah I think you’re right, he is rigid, and I’m not sure if he would be fair and balanced or just too grim and strict. But he probably would give solid, if stern and by the books, leadership. I agree with you he is not religious. I think he let Melisandre into his circle for political expediency. He understands what he has to do.

    DarkEmpress: Yeah, Varys does let Ned know that the time he gave Cersei to save the children, she took to kill Robert.

    Thanks for checking. I really wonder if they are ever going to show us the scene.

  225. Hear Me Roar
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 4:57 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters,

    That thing with houses must be a strange glitch. House Stark definitely is a house, a major one, they are Lords Paramount of the North (once a sovereign royal house, and now again one, self-proclaimed).

    The Kingsguard is the royal bodyguard group of seven knights, serving for life, the number is constant. If you remember, Ser Barristan Selmy was let go (against traditions) and was replaced by Sandor the Hound Clegane in S1.

  226. Hear Me Roar
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters:

    Thanks for checking.I really wonder if they are ever going to show us the scene.

    My interpretation was that Cersei used the time to plot and consolidate power, securing Joffrey succession, taking the power for house Lannister, and away from the Baratheons and Robert’s legacy. The King was mortally wounded and doomed either way.

  227. DarkEmpress
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Ok, so two more days until the finale airs. It is going to be 10 mins longer than normal, so remember that if you are going to set your pvr!

    I would like to know everyone’s predictions of who will die in the finale?!

    Robb- I really dont want him to die, but I’ve learned from Ned’s death last season that even central characters will die. I really don’t trust Talisa and I am sure that she will be at least partially responsible for his death.

    Member of the Night’s Watch- I can’t remember the character’s name, but he is going to sacrifice himself so that Jon Snow can earn the trust of the wildlings.

    Theon- He really should have listened to his sister and left Winterfell. She didnt bring him enough reinforcements to hold Winterfell and he is determinded to keep it. I predict he will die trying.

  228. Valyrian Made
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    death to lannisters:
    Alright all you smart people, tell me another thing.

    In the HBO viewer guide, where it explains all the Houses, it doesn’t lists the Starks as a House.Are they part of someone else’s house?How could they not have their own?There’s even a House Greyjoy.I didn’t understand that.

    It may be that they’re taking it literally. Afterall, the Starks no longer hold Winterfell, and Robb technically doesn’t have a castle/stronghold of his own

    death to lannisters:

    Also, is there more than one KingsGuard?I’ve always wondered who was protecting the King when Jamie was screwing his sister, or the Hound checking up on Sansa’s period.Which I found super creepy.Can you imagine getting your period for the first time and then having that guy come into your bedroom?Holy smokes.I love the Hound better now, but still, that was creepy as hell.Guess he was using his nose, as a Hound tends to ….

    Yeah there’s more than one kingsguard (in the books I think there’re 12 in King’s Landing). The Goldcloaks are all kingsguard-Jamie is their captain. Brienne would have been part of the king’s guard for Renly, with Loras Tyrell as the captain.

  229. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    serum:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    bronn says ch’valteesh and varys says ch’viathan….tyrions look was one of “thats how its pronounced bronn”

    Dug up that siege preparation scene from ep18 again.

    I had indeed remembered the exchange incorrectly. Tyrion’s first attempt at pronouncing the archmaester’s name is almost correct, the second one incorrect. Bronn mispronounces it as well, but in yet another way. I guess he just does it with so much swagger that I wanted to believe his was the right version. A little later, Varys proves them both wrong. I guess that puts paid to my theory that Bronn is from the same place as Varys.

    Thx for the correction.

  230. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Made: It may be that [HBO is] taking it literally. Afterall, the Starks no longer hold Winterfell, and Robb technically doesn’t have a castle/stronghold of his own

    Yeah there’s more than one kingsguard (in the books I think there’re 12 in King’s Landing). The Goldcloaks are all kingsguard-Jamie is their captain. Brienne would have been part of the king’s guard for Renly, with Loras Tyrell as the captain.

    You’ll get all the info on House Stark in the Season 2 Viewer’s Guide if you click on the “King in the North” banner. I think the graphic designer just ran out of room for an additional Stark sigil.

    My impression is that the Goldcloaks are the King’s Landing city guard, its commander reports to the Hand of the King. They stopped wearing their shiny chain mail armor after Tyrion sent Janos Slynt off to the Wall and replaced him with Bronn.

    The Kingsguard is a much smaller but more elite organization, which answers directly to the king. They’re essentially the bodyguards of the royal household and wear ornate plate armor. There was a scene in the throne room in which Joffrey had one of them tear Sansa’s dress before beating her with his sword. I think his name was Ser Mervyn or some such. The Hound just stood there and did nothing, but he did put his white cloak (fabric) over the girl after Tyrion marched in and demanded it.

  231. death to lannisters
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin: I think the graphic designer just ran out of room for an additional Stark sigil.

    Seems like a rather large omission. Should have run out of space on the Greyjoy sigil.

    DarkEmpress,

    I can’t wait to see Catelyn Stark’s face and some of those other northerners again. I miss them! Looking forward to see what’s going on in all of their worlds, certainly Arya, Catelyn, and then Dany across the sea. I really like her guy, though I’m not at all clear on his history. But he’s handsome and loyal and clearly in love with her. I also can’t wait to see what happens with Sansa and the Hound – interested in her storyline for the first time. This is a fascinating moment – can’t wait to see what happens with it all.

  232. loco73
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Mike: Unfortunately, that would mean waiting for 2 years. Whoever asked, just read the book if you really want. By the time next year rolls around, you won’t remember enough of the details for it to affect anything.

    Udi and Mike

    Thank you both for your advice. Also, thank you for not ripping me a new one, that is why I come to this site, with very, very, very few exceptions, the book readers that come to here have always been kind with their advice. For exmple of I go to a books store it has happended that on few ocassions I got some snarky sermons(most of the time from the employees rather than some random fan I happened to stumble upon) about not having read the books before the show…

    I guess once Season Two is over I’ll have a better idea of what to do. But thank you again for replying.

  233. Sergey
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    DarkEmpress:

    I would like to know everyone’s predictions of who will die in the finale?!

    Robb-I really dont want him to die, but I’ve learned from Ned’s death last season that even central characters will die. I really don’t trust Talisa and I am sure that she will be at least partially responsible for his death.

    Huh? No character may be immune but I really don’t see Rob just getting killed for no reason in the last episode of the season. When Eddard got executed the show was setting the event up for multiple episodes, there’s nothing currently threatening Rob. Plus he’s like the only real guy you can root for that can actually affect the war. With Stannis defeated where would the drama go if Rob also gets taken out? Lannisters wouldn’t have anyone left to fight. I don’t think anyone would be interested in Lannisters vs Wildlings conflict.

  234. death to lannisters
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Sergey,

    DarkEmpress,

    I don’t think Robb will die either. Or Theon. No good reason. Just a hunch.

  235. I Know of Fear
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    Valyrian Made: Stannis is portrayed a bit differently in this episode than he is in the books, but I definitely agree 110% with this. I actually think you can draw even more conclusions about Stannis from this episode:He’s the first man off the boats, up the ladder, etc. BUT that doesn’t happen until AFTER the wildfire. Note that Stannis is with the troop transports on board his flagship (the ship with the stag head on it that Stannis is standing on in the opening minutes…in the books it is named Fury) while Davos is in charge of the vanguard.

    I’m not sure I agree with this interpretation. Stannis lead every part of the battle except for one, and I think there is a reason. He anticipated a naval battle at the beginning, and it would make sense to put the Onion Knight as the leader of that portion because he has lived his whole life at sea and he’s the one who secured a fleet of pirate ships to bolster their numbers. But more importantly, Stannis had just decided to make Davos his Hand, and having him lead the battle would go a long way toward securing the respect of people who would not like to see a low born man like Davos rise to such a high position. If Davos had successfully lead the charge, people would say it was his victory, just like they would have said it was Melisandra’s victory if she used magic to win the battle.

    Overall I think Stannis is very much a take charge kinda guy that prefers to lead by example. He would certainly make for an inspiring king, though I still believe what Renly said about Stannis not being loved by the people or wanted for king. And if Renly was right about public opinion before he knew about the Red Priestess, there’s no telling how people would react if King Stannis was thought to be controlled be some foreign woman.

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