“Blackwater” director Neil Marshall on nudity and creating the battle
By Ours is the Fury on in Media.

Neil Marshall, who directed last week’s “Blackwater” episode, talks to Empire Online about creating the epic battle and his experience working on the show.

Marshall confirms that the chain, a vital part of Tyrion’s plan to thwart Stannis’s fleet in A Clash of Kings, was eliminated from the script early on for budgetary reasons, before he came on board. The director brought his experience on such action and adventure films as “Centurion” and “The Descent” to the table, coming up with the idea for the battering ram/boat combination used by Stannis’s men, and proposing that the men defending King’s Landing be using boulders in addition to arrows. He also brought Stannis himself into the front of the battle, as opposing to Stannis leading from a distance as in the novel.

A notable section of the discussion involves the show’s use of nudity and “sexposition,” an aspect so notorious it was lampooned by SNL. What asked about his feelings on the subject, Marshall responded:

It was pretty surreal. I’d not done anything like that in my films before. But the weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, “You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it.” So I was like, “Okay, well, if you— you’re the boss.”

Marshall further elaborated:

This particular exec took me to one side and said, “Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side—I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.” So you go ahead and do it.

The extensive use of nudity has been debated since the show began, with frequent accusations that HBO and Game of Thrones showrunners were shoehorning sex scenes into episodes to make lengthy exposition scenes more palatable for the average viewer. Some take issue with full nudity in general, while others only have a problem when the nudity (almost invariably female) and/or sex is a distraction from the subject at hand and not central to that scene’s intent. This blunt peek behind the scenes has been startling for some. While sexuality is a definite part of the realistic fantasy world of Westeros in George R. R. Martin’s books, Marshall’s remarks seem to confirm that the show’s attitude toward nudity and sex is a rather cynical one, based on pandering to those they may not think will appreciate the show without it.

Ours is the Fury:The section addressing the sexposition question is certainly illuminating, but give the rest of the podcast a listen as it really is an interesting look at the practicality and thought processes involved in making television like “Blackwater.” There is also the requisite adoration of Jack Gleeson that appears in every interview with people working on GoT!


444 Comments

  1. Nick Larter
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Fantastic interview. HBO should keep Marshall up their sleeve and wheel him out for future big battle episodes like the siege of The Wall

  2. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    I don’t really have a problem with sex/nudity whatsoever. I find the whining about it is kind of ridiculous…not to be the apologist of the “pervert side of the audience”, but there are shows with WAY MORE gratuitous and graphic sex scenes (Spartacus, I’m looking at you). Besides, the books are also full of ‘em and they’re really explicit as well.
    So no, I’m not complaining.

    I wish they keep Marshall for future seasons. He did a terrific job with Blackwater.

  3. Mean25
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    One more reason to be disappointed with season 2 handling. I have a feeling show would be perfect without D & D numskulls.

  4. Darth Valyria
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    That’s a little troubling to hear that HBO really does seem to be shoehorning nudity into the show. It’s usually not a distraction, but can’t they just let the excellent writing/acting/directing speak for itself?

  5. RitariKnight
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    What I would like to know is who was this “pervert” Executive Producer? Benioff? Weiss? Doelger? Strauss?

  6. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think prudishness is the problem here. I don’t mind nudity one bit, and I love that Westeros is a very real, sexual place- not safe and neutered like previous fantasy worlds. But when nudity’s being crammed in there in place of actual story developments and the showrunner’s doing it on purpose, it’s sort of a problem.

  7. SillyMammo
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    The funny thing is there was the one scene with nudity in the Blackwater espisode and it wasn’t it all that distracting, unlike some of the other scene this season.

    Wow! Mean25 complaining about Season 2 again. /rollingeyes

  8. Brett
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Wow. I’ve joked about the Mandatory HBO Nudity Quota, but to actually have that confirmed is hilarious. Not that I particularly mind, since the nudity has (usually) been relevant this season. Even the “Bronn’s girl” nudity can be justified as a mercenary fooling around before a major battle.

  9. Maxwell James
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    In all seriousness – I can’t say I’m surprised (and it is hilarious). I just hope D&D have enough of a sense of humor about this anecdote that they don’t hold Marshall’s honesty against him. Because ‘Blackwater’ was the best GoT episode yet, and not just for the action scenes.

  10. The Kingslayer
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Very entertaining podcast, Empire is a great magazine and site.

    I am kinda pissed that HBO or D & D haven’t contacted Neil about directing an episode in season 3 yet, Blackwater is easily the best episode of the season perhaps even the series.

    Neil would be perfect for The Red Wedding, Attack On The Wall, Purple Wedding and The Mountain vs. The Red Viper.

  11. A_S00
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Meh, I think OitF gave a good summary of my feelings in the “others only have a problem…” clause. It’s not the nudity, it’s the use of nudity in contexts where it’s clearly only there so that there can be nudity, which makes it seem crass, exploitative, distracting from what could otherwise be good scenes, and embarrassing to watch with other people. And, honestly, the nudity in Blackwater wasn’t a particularly bad offender; there’s some value to showing us a little about Bronn’s character (cheekily whoring it up before a battle) and the Hound’s (gloweringly disapproving of Bronn’s behavior, because he’s really just all about the killing, and takes himself more seriously). I was fine with the nudity in this episode.

    To give a couple other examples of “good nudity” and “bad nudity” from this point of view…

    —–

    Good:
    -Tyrion’s introduction in Winterfell’s whorehouse, S1 (important to his character).
    -Most of Dany’s scenes (bath in episode 1, dragons…important to the “powerful image” aspect of both moments).
    -This scene (teaches us about Bronn and Sandor).
    -Establishing Loras and Renly’s relationship (if they’re gonna be frank about sex, should be equal-opportunity about it…could have used more full-frontal).
    -Theon being a prick with that sailor’s daughter (reminds us what a prick Theon is).
    -Osha seducing Theon (plot-relevant).
    -Joffrey being a sicko with Ros and what’s-her-face (somewhat gratuitous, but effective at rubbing in how awful Joffrey is).
    -Renly and Margaery (demonstrating how uninterested Renly is).
    -Mellisandre’s birth scene (plot-relevant, tells us about the nature of magic in-universe).

    Bad:
    -Littlefinger’s monologue.
    -Theon and Ros (both times).
    -Viserys’ annoying bath scene.
    -Mellisandre getting naked for Stannis (come on, why did we have to watch that?).

    —–

    It’s not about how often they happen compared to the books, or how explicit they are (there’s even at least one case where they’ve taken out nudity where I think it would have been appropriate, the Ned/Cat sex scene). It’s that it’s used in an annoying fashion some of the time, and it distracts from the rest of the show (which is by and large not annoying).

  12. Superdeluxe
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Its like the SNL Skit lol

  13. The Kingslayer
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Nobody needs to see a sex scene between Sean Bean and Michelle Fairley, that would be like hearing your parents going at it.

  14. Josh Parker
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if that exec looked like Andy Samberg in Harry Potter glasses and fake braces?

    “He takes a lot of bathroom breaks…”

  15. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    A_S00,

    I agree with you.
    Littlefinger’s monologue was kind of awkward. Viserys’ bath scene was really annoying. And Theon’s scenes with Ros were terrible as well.

    Also, OitF made a good point there, and I can agree with that. Totally.

    I’m annoyed by the prudish whiners on the show’s Facebook page, forums and so on, who are like “Oh my god, Game of Porn” or “The Lord of Light on a bike, so many boobs! Oh, the scandal!”. I know that not everyone -should- like the nude/sex scenes (I don’t understand those guys who make a fuss out of it, but it’s their opinion), but whining so loud about it is what irritates me.

    Maybe it’s a double standard thing. They seem to be fine with the gore and everything but be careful about showing them a naked girl/dude.

    Anyway, I don’t want to derail this.

    …I want Marshall for season 3. Like…seriously. As far as I know Alan Taylor is not coming back because of Thor 2, so, is Tim Van Patten returning?

  16. Udi
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    This! Spot on! But there is another troubling issue. It seems there is way more talk about the nudity and sex than about the violence. This is the sort of thing that really makes me question critics. Nudity and sex is “bad” but violence, torture, baby killing, etc. is OK?!! Both are part of real life and Westerosi life but it seems like the violence in GoT, and in other series’ is “tolerated” or ignored whereas nudity and sex are intolerable. Beats me…

  17. Arthur
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Now there is no doubt why they want to keep Ros/Brothel scenes lol…

    “It was pretty surreal. I’d not done anything like that in my films before. But the weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, “You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it.” So I was like, “Okay, well, if you— you’re the boss.””

    So funny!

  18. Darth Valyria
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Udi,

    It’s easy to argue that violence is far more important to the story of ASOIF than tits are.

    In general though I agree with you. Violence in movies and on TV bothers me way more than nudity (which doesn’t bother me at all).

  19. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    I’m a huge fan of nudity. I don’t care one whit whether it is artistic or gratuitous. I do think it is rediculous to say they are pandering to people who won’t like the show without it though. I think they are pandering to those who like it more with it. There is nothing wrong with enjoying t&a even if its only purpose is to titillate. I don’t think it makes you a prude if this kind of nudity bothers you, but it makes me think that I would find you to be very dull for my tastes. The executive who wanted full frontal nudity is more on my wavelength. Glad he understands that some of us enjoy being titillated while we watch the show.

  20. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    are we sure that this exec isn’t Don Demilo from comedy bang bang? :P

    So the perv demographic has its own representative on the game of thrones set. Interesting. Could say more but I’m going to listen to the interview first.

  21. Coltaine777
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Methinks with this interview Mr.Marshall has ruined any chance of directing future eps of this series….though I hope I’m wrong …

  22. Christmas is coming
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    There is a time and place for nudity and violence, I believe they only add more boobs for the adolescent male who describes everything as “epic”

  23. sukeyna
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    I’m a huge fan of nudity. I don’t care one whit whether it is artistic or gratuitous. I do think it is rediculous to say they are pandering to people who won’t like the show without it though. I think they are pandering to those who like it more with it. There is nothing wrong with enjoying t&a even if its only purpose is to titillate. I don’t think it makes you a prude if this kind of nudity bothers you, but it makes me think that I would find you to be very dull for my tastes. The executive who wanted full frontal nudity is more on my wavelength. Glad he understands that some of us enjoy being titillated while we watch the show.

    100% in agreement. I pay for HBO because I want to see programs made for and about adults, not PG-13 stuff. That executive knows his audience.

  24. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Great interview, he seems a creative problem-solver with a true love for his work. Would love to see him direct more of the action-oriented episodes. Frankly, he nailed the quieter scenes just as well, yes, more Neil Marshall please!

  25. Carne
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    I don’t mind nudity when it’s used in a way that’s relevant to a character or to the plot. I do get annoyed when it’s just “HEY GUYS, LOOK HERE, A PAIR OF TITS! COOL, RIGHT GUYS?!”.

    The Ros&Armeca scene in season 1 was outright boring to watch and distracting.

  26. Nicole
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    I’m curious how all the men who love the nudity because it’s “real” would feel if it was male nudity for no reason at all?
    All I want is a little something for the laddies who watch, and one dude without his shirt is not going to cut it.

  27. Darth Valyria
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    What gives? You went a whole comment without using the phrase “a woman.” A man is a bit disappointed in a woman.

  28. Darth Valyria
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Nicole,

    Hopefully there will be a big return of the Hodor prosthetic in season 3! ;)

  29. Remaal
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    LOL HBO really has an executive in charge of tits & ass. “facepalm”

    ETA:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if HBO’s next book rights purchase were to be the 50 Shades series.

  30. HouseLark
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    The sex in the books is much more graphic than anything depicted on screen so far. Yeah some execs will cynically push the “sex sells” line but so far only one scene has not served the plot in an way (obviously the famous “play with her arse” scene). Even the Mel-Stanmis scene was useful for illustrating something that was heavily alluded to in ACOK.

    Actually, the most pointless and offensive moment I have seen so far was Littlefinger wiping cum off one his whore’s mouths. Totally unnecessary.

  31. Rose
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer:
    Nobody needs to see a sex scene between Sean Bean and Michelle Fairley, that would be like hearing your parents going at it.

    Yeah, but this is the problem. When the sex scenes are cheap entertainment as opposed to in service of the story. The only reason to CUT the Ned/Cat sex scene is because they’re middle aged and that’s not sexy. But it would have been helpful to have seen that their characters are still physically in love, where their relationship in the series came off as being post-sexual. Or Mirri Maz Duur. We didn’t see her getting actually raped because nobody wants to see a heavyset fourty year old woman getting raped — but shouldn’t we not want to see ANYONE get raped? Mirri’s revenge would have been much more sympathetic if we actually saw her being raped — the way that we saw Sansa and Dany being raped. Not only did it undermine Mirri’s story to not show it, it added a really skeevy tone to the rape scenes that DID make it into the show. Are we supposed to think that’s hot?

    I have no problem with sexual worlds and sex scenes. I’m not a prude. The ONLY sex scene in this series I thought was gratuitous was the Ros/Whore/Littlefinger one, and I still love that scene becaus I think Aiden does amazing work in it. But I hate the idea that it’s there to be softcore porn instead of servicing the story, which we’ve now been proven it is.

  32. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Nicole: I’m curious how all the men who love the nudity because it’s “real” would feel if it was male nudity for no reason at all?

    THIS! :)

  33. Kennef
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    What a great interview! I was already a fan of Marshall’s from his movies, and it’s nice to hear that he was able to bring some good stuff to the GoT table. I hope he gets his wish and gets to direct more episodes!

  34. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    A_S00,

    See, this is all just subjective tastes. You included in your “good” nudity the scene where the executive just wanted to see some fully frontal nudity because he likes it. It wasn’t essential to the scene to have nudity there but some of us enjoyed seeing it nonetheless. No matter how much nudity they show or for what reasons they decide to show it there are going to be people who find it objectionable. The great thing for me is I enjoy ever minute of it so I’m getting what I want. Sorry about your luck to those who aren’t.

  35. HouseLark
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Udi:
    Ours is the Fury,

    This! Spot on! But there is another troubling issue. It seems there is way more talk about the nudity and sex than about the violence. This is the sort of thing that really makes me question critics. Nudity and sex is “bad” but violence, torture, baby killing, etc. is OK?!! Both are part of real life and Westerosi life but it seems like the violence in GoT, and in other series’ is “tolerated” or ignored whereas nudity and sex are intolerable. Beats me…

    Exactly. The most gratuitous and horrific violence is fine and even celebrated as “badass” but show a boob and suddenly the sky is falling. Was it really necessary to see the top of man’s head sliced off, or a man cut in quarter, or the graphic image of a man’s skull being crushed by a falling thrown rock? Most of this could be avoided. I’m not saying it should have been but the double standard with regard to depictions if sex and violence is often overlooked among GoT fans.

  36. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Nicole,

    You got Hodor and Theon letting it all hang out in season one. Personally full frontal male nudity does nothing for me, I find the male body repulsive, but I don’t care if they show it.

  37. purplejilly
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    I knew it! I KNEW the execs were pushing them, and saying crap like that..

    The whole problem was that this was how so much of it felt – that it wasn’t really there, organically, from the creative minds, but was pushed into the scene because the execs were saying:
    “Come ON! It’s HBO! Why make something with us if you DONT take advantage of the full frontal?”

    This annoys me, because I see Game of Thrones as the fantasy fan’s ambassador to the rest of the world, to encourage more high quality fantasy shows, and we are a very underserved audience, whereas the PERV out there has NO SHORTAGE of perv stuff they can see any time they want, online, on cable, and on DVD. So by ‘perving up’ our fantasy show, I feel it cheapens it.

    I think the Blackwater episode bears my argument out, because there wasn’t much nudity in it, what was there made sense and was not gratuitous, and we were all wowed by it. That perv executive knows nothing.

  38. Felt Pelt
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    I think in a surprise move we should we replace this entire discussion with a “Bring Back Neil Marshall” campaign. Twitter, eagles, fire arrows, the whole shebang. I doubt his humorous candor here will stop him from returning.

    But yeah, bring on the equal opportunity penises.

  39. Ed
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I approve of this message.

    And frankly, I hope to see more Armeca (Ros can kick rocks). Bring it on HBO!

    Dan:
    I’m a huge fan of nudity. I don’t care one whit whether it is artistic or gratuitous. I do think it is rediculous to say they are pandering to people who won’t like the show without it though. I think they are pandering to those who like it more with it. There is nothing wrong with enjoying t&a even if its only purpose is to titillate. I don’t think it makes you a prude if this kind of nudity bothers you, but it makes me think that I would find you to be very dull for my tastes. The executive who wanted full frontal nudity is more on my wavelength. Glad he understands that some of us enjoy being titillated while we watch the show.

  40. Rose
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Nicole:
    I’m curious how all the men who love the nudity because it’s “real” would feel if it was male nudity for no reason at all?

    Very much this. Nobody can deny that the women are full frontal way more often than the men are, and that the male full frontal scenes are considerably less sexual. There have been a few sex scenes that are sexy for ladies, but the percentage is waaaaay smaller. I think if they’re doing this on purpose, it really should be more equal opportunity. When it’s not, it really does come off like that SNL sketch.

  41. Ed
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    What series have you been watching? You don’t remember the hanging Hodor, or the deflated Theon?

    Nicole:
    I’m curious how all the men who love the nudity because it’s “real” would feel if it was male nudity for no reason at all?
    All I want is a little something for the laddies who watch, and one dude without his shirt is not going to cut it.

  42. LordStarkington
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Most of the nudity hasn’t bothered me…the LF/various whores scenes generally have come off the worst to me, in part because I think they’ve also contributed a lot to TV LF being more of “scheming scumbag” rather than “sociopathic mastermind”.

    I do think they’ve restrained it a bit in the 2nd season (as far as I can recall).

    And, no, I wouldn’t be horrified by male nudity, although I doubt we’ll ever see much of it.

  43. Kaeth
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know maybe it’s just me but it sure did seem like there was plenty of sex in the books so I dont know why people are getting all riled up. It just seems like more in the show because its alot more prevalent when your watching it as opposed to reading it.

  44. Lannisport
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Marshall NEEDS to be brought back for some of the bigger scenes from the 3rd book! You could just tell the guy has film experience from watching Blackwater unfold. Really hope to hear that he is called back soon.

  45. Ryan E
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Hell I love the books, but I’d rather have Viserys talking about ancient dragons with a hot naked Doreah on his lap than sitting on a horse talking to Jorah or something.

  46. oscar evel
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    as part of the perv side of the audience, I wholeheartedly approve of the unnamed HBO executive who acts as my representative! I hope that guy will be there when they film the ygritte/jon cave scene!!

  47. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Rose,

    One of the problems is that most male actors are not willing to do scenes with their penise on display. It’s much easier to find females who are ok with getting naked. Hell, when I had to strip down in high school locker rooms you might have mistaked me for the Flash. You’d have to pay me a lot of money to do it on camera in front of an entire crew. Plus men tend to enjoy female nudity more than women enjoy male nudity. Otherwise we wouldn’t see such a dearth of strip clubs for women.

  48. MRR
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    The comments of this executive producer [i]could[/i] have been mostly made in jest, as Neil seems to have taken them in good humour. For the most part I don’t have problem with the use of nudity in the series so far, but there have been a couple scenes (Littlefinger’s voyeurism montage followed by the tacky joke of a semen-filled mouth kiss, primarily) that have made me roll my eyes. I’m not a prude at all, but I think GoT is a more meaningful experience than the cheap thrill of seeing some boobs.

  49. sukeyna
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    HouseLark: Exactly. The most gratuitous and horrific violence is fine and even celebrated as “badass” but show a boob and suddenly the sky is falling. Was it really necessary to see the top of man’s head sliced off, or a man cut in quarter, or the graphic image of a man’s skull being crushed by a falling thrown rock?Most of this could be avoided. I’m not saying it should have been but the double standard with regard to depictions if sex and violence is often overlooked among GoT fans.

    I find the hypocrisy hilarious and revealing.

    I vote for more male frontal nudity and passionate, consensual sex.

  50. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    There isn’t a dearth of strip clubs because we don’t like nudity; there’s a dearth of them because we don’t usually have to pay for it.

    Women are very visual and would very much appreciate some nudity equality. Not every actor has a choice when they sign on for a role about the nudity level. An actor starting out (like say Kit Harington) would have considerable less pull than someone like Peter Dinklage who has, in his own words, “a no front-junk clause” in his contract.

  51. Eo0oooorrrr???
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    I don’t care about the nudity, but the fact that the nudity is actually just for tits, and not for any film reasons, is fairly, well, Lucas-ish.

  52. Syrio
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    I hate it when people make the simplistic argument that “why aren’t people more upset with the violence and sex”, such a silly knee jerk “argument” they probably read somewhere else and throw it out there as though they have an original thought.

    This is a series called “Game of Thrones”, power struggle, war, battles, are inherent part of the story, main characters whose lives are in danger constantly is an inherent part of the suspense the show offers. Now how can lives be in danger, and battles won without “violence”? Of course there is violence, violence is not only accepted but expected part of the fabric of the show. Gratuitous nude scenes are not. Note I didn’t say all sex scenes, just scenes that are there to be there, not really advancing the plot.

    Similarly, if for argument sake I’m watching a romance movie and there are suddenly for no good reason in the plot, heads are being chopped off and necks being slashed, just for the sake of gore, I’m going to complain that the violence was entire “gratuitous”.

    It’s not about having some stronger aversion to “sex” than “violence”. Game of Thrones doesn’t need to have gratuitous nude scenes, in fact they cheapen the show, the same way some gratuitous gore would be completely unnecessary and unwelcome in a different genre, and would cheapen that show or movie.

  53. Coltaine777
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Is part of the problem male genitilia is external and female is internal ? a full frontal female isn’t a big deal but maybe men are intimidated to show themselves full frontal because it’s potentially embarassing without some cgi enhancement like Hodor ? that is if they don’t ‘measure’ up ? lol

  54. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Nicole: I’m curious how all the men who love the nudity because it’s “real” would feel if it was male nudity for no reason at all?All I want is a little something for the laddies who watch, and one dude without his shirt is not going to cut it.

    Wouldn’t bother me in the least.

  55. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    What series have you been watching?You don’t remember the hanging Hodor, or the deflated Theon?

    how titillating!

  56. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s hodor was a prosthetic, not real.

  57. Arthur
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Oh yeah?

  58. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    There isn’t a dearth of strip clubs because we don’t like nudity; there’s a dearth of them because we don’t usually have to pay for it.

    Do women have clubs with men dancing around naked for free? Otherwise I don’t understand your reasoning. Men don’t go to strip clubs because they can’t get a women naked without paying for it. Look how many men go that have a girlfriend or are married. Men go to strip clubs because they enjoy being in a room full of hot, naked girls. Yeah, we are willing to pay for that but unless women have free strip clubs then that furthers my point not yours.

    Edit: Ha! I just realized I misspelled penis in the comment you responded to.

  59. paylor
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    That’s exactly how I feel. And it feels kind of sexist too. It’s all about the male gaze and not the story. And if you are just going to blatantly have it be just for the eye candy, why is it mostly the women that are getting exploited? They have been positively prudish when it comes to men in the sex scenes. At least in Spartacus it’s definitely equal opportunity exploitation.

  60. Coltaine777
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Interesting …ScreenRant has an interview with Charlize Theron where she states she would be open to appearing in GOT…she’s a massive fan… Charlize for Val anyone ? …

    edit: of course WIC has already reported this :) but still i’d love to see her involved in the show !!11

  61. Luana
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Men go to strip clubs because they enjoy being in a room full of hot, naked girls.

    Okay, impromptu survey.

    Are there any straight females out there who DON’T like looking at hot, naked guys?

    Anybody?

    *****crickets******

  62. Richard
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Hodor’s hodor was a prosthetic, not real.

    and some of the women are wearing merkins.

  63. Luana
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    In other news, the Winter is Coming sidebar is now displaying links for porn sites. Fascinating.

  64. paylor
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Luana,

    And don’t forget the gay men as well!

  65. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    It’s not sexist. It’s majority rule. The vast majority of men, and women, might I add, find the female form far more attractive than the male form, so it’s catering to the masses, really.

    Men look like monkeys. And they look like they stink. Even some of the more attractive men, who have more feminine features, look like smelly apes. Women have a much softer, and delicate appearance; more aesthetically pleasing to the eye (that’s not necessarily the case for all animals, mind you, like peacocks for example, but it’s definitely the case for humans: compare Jessica Alba to Ron Perlman and you tell me). Showing a bunch of nude men on screen isn’t really going to draw in many viewers, whereas female nudity will do exactly that (if you choose to acknowledge human nature for what it is). People want to see ball sacks flopping around about as much as they want to see turkey necks jiggle.

    So, I don’t fault HBO for using biology as a marketing tool. If bewbs are what the people want, then give the people bewbs!

  66. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Luana,

    I didn’t say they didn’t. You are missing my point. I am saying men are much more willing to pay to be in a room full of hot, naked women than there are women willing to pay to be in a room full of hot, naked men. Hell, I live in Los Angeles and there are 4 or 5 strip clubs within walking distance of me right now. There are zero male strip clubs within a 20 mile radius. This, to me, is evidence that men enjoy female nudity more than women enjoy male nudity. That doesn’t mean I believe women don’t enjoy male nudity at all. But unless women have free male strip clubs that they can attend so they don’t have to pay for it then neither of you have even remotely disproven my point.

  67. Mimsy
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    The SNL skit must have been SUPER funny to the Exec’s. lol

    The only scene that I can remember where nudity was OTP was that LF brothel scene with Ros that just about everyone hated. It went on forever and just felt forced.

    I liked the Bronn scene. It was just a guy admiring a girl, telling us about his broken nose. The slow twirling undress was very nicely done.

  68. Arthur
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    I am not offended by any kind of nudity. There is nothing shameful about the human body. Only in America, because of religious extremes, is the nude human body considered a sinful “rated r” sight.

    I just hate wasted time on characters like “Ros”. They try to write her into the story in hopes that her (oh so important and interesting) character will hide the fact she only exists as a “doorway” into the lewd conduct of the brothel/whore scenes they choose to continuously incorporate into the show.

    I find this as an insult to my intelligence. Maybe others have been or still are tricked by the use of her character but I am not. She excits only as a “doorway” to whore/brothel scenes.

    The fact Neil had an executive over his shoulder saying “show tits, show tits!” proved that D&D wrote Ros into the script as a way to give them more tits/sex scenes.

    I love this show, I am not a troll or purist or someone with my “pinky up” when I drink. I love a woman’s body. It’s just the use of Ros solely for the purpose of T&A is really pathetic.

    It’s all just my opinion but I’m sure even if you disagree with me or are sick of hearing me complain about Ros, you can clearly see my line of logic here and the reason for my hatred of her…

  69. paylor
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    This is such BS, I’m not sure where to start. But I have no doubt that Adam Friedberg feels the same way that you do.

  70. Mimsy
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Coltaine777: nteresting …ScreenRant has an interview with Charlize Theron where she states she would be open to appearing in GOT…she’s a massive fan… Charlize for Val anyone ?

    Woah! Totally, VAL!

  71. ThePinkDragon
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    I don’t mind the nudity, because eh, whatever, it’s HBO. It could be way worse; we could be at True Blood level (which IMO is critical mass).

    I think the only thing that annoyed me was when this tiny but vocal minority got “grossed out” at the Renly/Loras scenes, but that was a fandom thing, not an issue with the show itself.

  72. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I think what OiF was saying is that we (women) don´t pay clubs with naked men because we can have a naked man in private (or more, if you like that) for free…he may don´t want to dance for us, though;) But I don´t know.

  73. Rose
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    Men look like monkeys. And they look like they stink. Even some of the more attractive men, who have more feminine features, look like smelly apes. Women have a much softer, and delicate appearance; more aesthetically pleasing to the eye (that’s not necessarily the case for all animals, mind you, like peacocks for example, but it’s definitely the case for humans: compare Jessica Alba to Ron Perlman and you tell me).

    Spoken like a true heterosexual male.

    Put it this way: I’m bisexual, so I like boobs and balls pretty much equally. My favourite part of a woman’s body is the curve where the waist becomes the hip. I agree with you that I love women for how soft and curvy they look, which is why I prefer my ladies with a bit of flesh on the bones.

    But men are hot as hell, too. Yeah, nobody’s going to line up to see flaccid dicks waving around, but that’s not what we’re talking about. The Adonis belt — the V shape on a man’s lower stomach and hips — is one of the hottest things in the world. Men also have fantastic butts, even better than female butts. They’re hard and sculpted and statue-esque. In my opinion, a well-formed male butt is as hot as female boobs. And you’d be hard pressed to find someone who likes dudes who doesn’t love dudebutt.

    So forget balls. Let’s compare the number of female tits to the number of male butt cheeks. I can think of only two sexualized shots of male buttcheeks in the entire series, and Renly’s were really only 1/3 of buttcheeks.

  74. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    paylor,

    You honestly believe that the average women likes male nudity as much as the average man likes female nudity? I’m shocked this is even debatable. The only way that you can actually test this theory is to look at the market for nudity. It is heavily dominated by female nudity. Whether we look at strip clubs, porn, pay for cable, etc. it is way more devoted to satisfying men. If it is true that women, on average, like male nudity as much as men like female nudity then you have a chance to make billions filling the huge gap in that market.

  75. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins: Men look like monkeys. And they look like they stink.

    and that is not good just for you! (and men don´t look like monkeys.) You think that women likes beautiful men??? You know nothing Varamyr.

  76. Jill
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    What is weird is the avoiding nudity when it was in the book, the cat and ned scene as previously mentioned, while pushing it in when it’s not necesarily expected/wanted/needed. I certainly don’t mind the sex scenes at all (although seeing “littlegfinger’s audition of whores” with my brother was more than awkward), but they avoid it when the woman in question is over 30? Seems kind of insulting, Then again, the lovely Ms. Fairley may not have nudity obligations in her contract, and I suppose it wasn’t integral to the letter scene…

  77. sukeyna
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Rose:

    But men are hot as hell, too. Yeah, nobody’s going to line up to see flaccid dicks waving around, but that’s not what we’re talking about. The Adonis belt — the V shape on a man’s lower stomach and hips — is one of the hottest things in the world. Men also have fantastic butts, even better than female butts. They’re hard and sculpted and statue-esque. In my opinion, a well-formed male butt is as hot as female boobs. And you’d be hard pressed to find someone who likes dudes who doesn’t love dudebutt.

    Oh. God. Yes. Adonis belt and dudebutt.

  78. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    That just furthers my point like I said above. Men don’t have to pay to see a women naked. I have a girlfriend who I see naked every single day. I find my girlfriend to be exceptionally hot. I still occasionally go to strip clubs. If only single men were going to strip club then this line of argument would hold water but that just isn’t the case. Last year, I went to a strip club with ten or so guys from work and all of us were in a relationship. Every single one of us could have went home and saw a naked girl for free but we chose to pay to see 20 or so naked females at a strip club instead. Now, if women have the ability to round up 20 guys and have them strip for them virtually when ever they want then that would also explain the dearth of male strip clubs. But since nobody is making that claim then the logical thing to assume is that men are more willing to pay to be in a room with a bunch of naked ladies because they enjoy the female body more than women enjoy the male body.

    I’m not even sure why women would want to argue this point. It’s not like it is one of men’s virtuous qualities that we tend to be obsessed with seeing women naked. When I see a hot girl on tv and I go online to see if she has any naked pictures, I’m not thinking that I’m superior to women in this way. I keep hoping the older I get that I’ll become less infatuated with the female body although all evidence so far points to this being a life long problem for me. Still, if I have to be addicted to something then at least it is over the amazing female body and not something terribly destructive.

  79. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    What I dislike is it’s almost always the women that are fully nude, while we ladies *might* get to see a brief butt shot. Unless you want to count Hodor (and that wasn’t even really “him”, according to the interviews), a brief, blurry shot of Theon, and some ugly nameless assassin trotting behind a horse after he tried to kill Dany.

    C’mon HBO, if you want to be “adult” and “realistic”, stop with the tits and vagina shots constantly and be brave enough to do some full male frontal nudity once in a while. It feels pretty sexist, to be honest. Do men never take their clothes off in Westeros or what?

  80. Mike Chair
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: The extensive use of nudity has been debated

    I was born nude. Does the fact that I wasn’t paid for it make it gratuitous? Debate.

    Ours is the Fury: frequent accusations that HBO and Game of Thrones showrunners were shoehorning sex scenes into episodes

    Though tempted, I never used a shoehorn during sex.

    Ours is the Fury: sexuality is a definite part of the realistic fantasy world of Westeros

    It’s part of my fantasy world too. And realism has nothing to do with it.

    Ours is the Fury: Hodor’s hodor was a prosthetic, not real

    Oh, why did you go and say that? Let them dream, I say. Let them dream!

  81. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    oh and Dan? Yeah, actually there are a lot of women who like to see naked men. Most won’t admit to it because our stupid culture pounds it into our heads we have to be more discrete and oh-so-polite about such matters, but far more women than you think like to see a nice package once in a while. Just sayin’, bro.

  82. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Dan: There are zero male strip clubs within a 20 mile radius. This, to me, is evidence that men enjoy female nudity more than women enjoy male nudity.

    Why is that evidence that men enjoy it MORE – you’re only talking about one “delivery” method or format.

    Women watch porn, oogle at men on the beach, write erotic fanfic, create GIFs of Kit Harrington’s abs, objectify men’s bodies, ect. Your statement makes women sound asexual. What do you think they’re fantasizing about if NOT HOT NAKED MEN?

  83. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Dude, Ros wasn’t naked once this entire season. They’ve had other women naked this year. It’s not about Ros at all.

  84. DB
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    That quote about that particular pervert exec is just… probably one of the stupidest, unsettling things I’ve ever read. These people have their priorities in the wrong place. They’re trying to capitalize as much as humanly possible off this series and probably can’t give a lesser shit about staying true to the books.

  85. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    don´t take me seriously Dan, I probably misunderstood Sue.
    One thing I know: men don´t have to be beautiful or muscular for me so I have nothing to do in a strip club. (I like Louie CK if that tells you something).
    And I also like men who can´t dance.

  86. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Exactly Meg! It’s a cultural thing that prevails. Women definitely DO think about naked men and watch naked men and so forth.

    Men typically love to make the excuse in pop culture and media that “oh, everyone finds the female form more attractive and that’s why there are fewer male nude scenes”…which is just another example of how culture tries to manipulate the genders. Besides, I really dislike it when some -dude- tries to tell me, as a woman, what I find more attractive. No. I’m not going to be “polite” and let them tell me that I find a woman more attractive than a guy. Because it’s BS, and it’s BS for a lot of women, those who speak up and those who will think they’ll be scorned as “dirty minded sluts” for saying the truth.

  87. Lex
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Luana:
    In other news, the Winter is Coming sidebar is now displaying links for porn sites. Fascinating.

    Yup, this happened to me at work. I was NOT impressed…

  88. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Ok, one last time. I fully understand that women like men’s bodies. The question is do they like the male body as much as men like the female body. Yes, women watch porn but not as much as men. Yes, women oogle men at the beach but not as much as men oogle women. I’m not sure you girls understand how depraved the male mind truly is at times. Have you ever been in a porn store that has video rooms in the back? If so, did you ever think about what the men are doing back there? That is out in fricking public. Men do some of the sickest things I have ever heard of because of their desire to be with a women or see a women naked. Thank God that women are not as depraved as men or the world wouldn’t function. If women thought like men then people would have sex every time they stepped out of their house.

  89. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Dan – don’t kid yourself. It’s actually been proven that women think about sex just as often as men. Do you think all those female porn stars are angels, after all? That’s just something men tell themselves and say to skew the gender misconception between male and female. Do some research. Women can be utterly -raunchy-, more so than men in some cases, when away from male influence or when anonymous and not worried they won’t get “caught”.

  90. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    It’s disappointing, though not surprising, to have that confirmed. I should clarify though, that just because I don’t find it surprising, doesn’t mean it’s something I think they shouldn’t do something to change.

    As someone who is attracted to women, that sort of nudity is titillating, but it’s also something I can find online if I really want to. Porn is almost universally cheesy, but that’s what makes it fun (for men and women)! The problem is, when it comes to something like GoT, which is trying hard to be taken seriously as a cerebral drama, the random tossing in of nudity and silly sex scenes really does bring it down a notch. There is also a VERY huge difference between how often women’s bodies are exploited on the show and how often men’s are. Do you think if Bronn happened to like dudes we’d be seeing a sexy, full frontal scene like the one with Armeca, but with a male body? There comes a point where you have to ask yourself why that is.

    Even excusing that these are scenes from the perspective of a male character, Dany’s scenes don’t really fare much better. We see a little of Drogo in season 1, but largely the focus is still on Dany’s nude body. I also think someone made a good point when they brought up the difference between showing rape scenes featuring attractive, young women and older ones.
    I’m re-watching season 1 right now with my male, non-reader friend, and when he saw a brief, brief shot of Drogo’s penis his comment was, “Awwwwww, why did we need to see that?” He never commented once on the many shots we’d had of naked women throughout the first three episodes.

    Although I find some of GRRM’s sex scenes poorly written (oh, the Myrish swamp….), there is most certainly a difference between most of the scenes in the novel, and the ones on the show. For one thing, though the scenes in the books are by their nature more explicit (we’re seeing the experience through the eyes of the character, after all), the very point of them is the emotion and thoughts and motivations going on behind the eyes of those characters that make them more valid. The explicit nature of the scenes in the books feels necessary in a way that the pervy, teenage, lingering eye of the camera does not.

    Also, stating that there is more female nudity on TV, therefore more men like nudity and fewer women like the male body is not a great argument supporting the idea that women don’t like watching sex. Rather, it just reinforces the pretty obvious conclusion that much of television still views sexuality in black and white terms, and that they are still catering mainly to the male gaze.

    I’d also like to see where some of this evidence is that suggests men enjoy the nude female body more than women enjoy the male one. It seems to me like most of the women (and gay men) on this site would very much like to be pandered to in the way the straight male (and to some degree lesbian) audience is.

    This is pretty overtly sexist, and to be honest it really makes me recoil and to some extent not want to support the show.

  91. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    In fact, go check out a site called Y-gallery.net. Most of the artists on that site are female.

  92. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    I love the nude male form. GoT has a huge female audience, so if they’re catering to their audience’s perviness, I expect unnecessary nude scenes next season from Iain Glen, Richard Madden, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau. I also expect the full Fat Pink Mast to be on display when AFFC is filmed. Thanks in advance, HBO!

    andrea,

    No, that was pretty much what I meant. I was being a little jokey, but you know, sort of truthful too. :)

  93. Arthur
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Hence the term “doorway”, maybe Ros isn’t herself naked but she is used to cut to brothel/whore scenes continuously.

    To put it in more clearer terms. Ros is a character used to segway into a whore/brothel scene. So what of she herself is not nude, is the same thing.

  94. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    andrea,

    But since nobody is making that claim then the logical thing to assume is that men are more willing to pay to be in a room with a bunch of naked ladies because they enjoy the female body more than women enjoy the male body.

    Or could it be that, traditionally, it’s seen as less socially acceptable and less “natural” for women to entertain themselves this way? Women (generally) aren’t raised to view women who visit strip clubs in a positive light, whereas for a lot of men, looking at porn mags and checking out strippers is part of what establishes their masculinity.

  95. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    Oh, don’t worry. I’m not taking any of this seriously. I find the conversation funny as hell. I always have enjoyed debating women on things like this. It fascinates me that some women think they are just like men when it comes to these things. Some women are but on the average it’s not even close. Which is a good thing.

    Louis CK is the shit too. Have you seen the clip from his show where he talks about how he feels sorry for women who have sex with him? He talks about being on top with sweat pouring off him and dripping on the woman. Fricking hilarious.

  96. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Hrmmm. Just tried to post twice but it isn’t showing up. D:
    Help?

  97. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Dan: It fascinates me that some women think they are just like men when it comes to these things. Some women are but on the average it’s not even close. Which is a good thing.

    I’m really glad we have experts like you on the job, calculating all those averages, based on your extensive research on women’s viewing habits and patriarchal norms! Gee, what would those women do without you to debate with them? Probably just sew, as befits their more staid sexual nature.

  98. pleonasm
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    This sadly confirms the misogynistic nature of some of the nudity presented on the show. Not that I’m really suprised. The fact they have have to stock the cast with current and former porn actresses was pretty much the red flag.

    Its a shame, because must folks wouldn’t have an issue if the nudity was actually servicing the story and not simple titillation.

  99. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Iain Glen and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.

    oh damn you ruined my argument in favour of non-beautiful men.

  100. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    andrea,

    Oh, don’t worry. I’m not taking any of this seriously. I find the conversation funny as hell. I always have enjoyed debating women on things like this. It fascinates me that some women think they are just like men when it comes to these things. Some women are but on the average it’s not even close. Which is a good thing.

    Louis CK is the shit too. Have you seen the clip from his show where he talks about how he feels sorry for women who have sex with him? He talks about being on top with sweat pouring off him and dripping on the woman. Fricking hilarious.

    How do you -really- know what women are like? ARE you one? Women don’t admit to things as freely because of cultural standards, so chances are you’re not getting a straight answer. Become a woman and get some female friends drunk and alone and I’ll bet you’d go pale at some of the stuff that is talked about and done.

    You’re a know-it-all who, to quote Ygritte, knows nothing. Again, go visit Y-gallery.net. A handful of male artists and a TON of female artists. Sure, women are the “nicer” and less perverse gender, right? What a bunch of rubbish.

  101. Obsidian
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    This attitude toward nudity has been really obvious from the get-go , so I hope it doesn’t bounce back on Marshall , because it was a really good episode.

    I didn’t like Stannis being all alone on the battlements with all those Lannisters ( without even a helmet)..but that was a relatively small quibble ..That was as much designed for those who want badassery over reason , as the questionable use of nudity / sex is for the “pervs”.

    I didn’t mind the idea of the Bronn scene , and could live with the scene as it was ( even though it was obvious why it was shot the way it was )..but it could have been better ( even with less nudity ). There was noticeably one woman present..( We have beautiful women ? )…Well what about all those other guys ? Wouldn’t they have wanted what could be their last chance for sex , too?

    I think it would have been more realistic to have a number of women in various states of deshabille, draped over a number of men ( a few necks being nuzzled, the odd hand up a skirt ) …. As it was, once she was naked , she had to just sit there stiffly , like the prop she was, for the rest of the scene. It was quite unnatural.

    Again , I liked so much else about the scene..( Hound / Bronn ) that it’s another small quibble. But I hope we can now move beyond all the rationalizations that these scenes serve some vital dramatic purpose.

    I also think the sex vs. violence argument is overstated… Would I still have been glued to my TV without some of the gorier violence ? You bet.

  102. Omar Brown
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Seriously, enough with the whining about the nudity!
    People were cut in two, heads pulpified and half decapitated. But there is a naked lady for 30 second and people cry faul.

    Seriously, take your prude condescension and go watch Downten Abbey ( great show BTW!)

  103. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Sijjvra,

    You can’t prove how often someone thinks about sex. Those studies are rediculous to begin with. The only objective way to measure this is to look at the market. If what you say is true then there is a multibillion dollar gap between the market catering towards women’s sexual desires and the market catering towards men’s sexual desires. There is a reason why women make so much more in porn than men do.

    I’m not saying a women can’t be just as much into seeing naked men as a man is into seeing a naked women. There are always exceptions to the rule. But when you look at the average man vs the average women it isn’t even close. The market proves this conclusively.

  104. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Rose,

    One of the problems is that most male actors are not willing to do scenes with their penise on display. It’s much easier to find females who are ok with getting naked. Hell, when I had to strip down in high school locker rooms you might have mistaked me for the Flash. You’d have to pay me a lot of money to do it on camera in front of an entire crew. Plus men tend to enjoy female nudity more than women enjoy male nudity. Otherwise we wouldn’t see such a dearth of strip clubs for women.

    Nonsense. If HBO are willing to hire a couple of female porn stars (Sibil Kekili, Sahara Knite) they can hire a couple of male ones as well. Problem solved. These would do nothing for me personally, but the show does have female viewers who are rightfully complaining about a male chauvinist bias among HBO execs when it comes to nudity and sex.

    FWIW, Lena Headey is gorgeous but she’s not taken her kit off, either, precisely because she’s reached a point in her acting career at which she can easily negotiate a no-nudity clause. And you know what, I’m fine with that, because Blackwater showed once again that she’s a terrific character actress.

    I also don’t think it’s always necessary to always show naked bodies to make sexuality a part of a given character’s persona or a given relationship. For example, Sean Bean and Michelle Fairley probably both had/have no-nudity clauses in their respective contracts, but they could easily have shown them making love under a blanket and have Luwin’s knock on the door be a coitus interruptus (for legitimate reasons, btw). We don’t need to see the details, but simply knowing theirs was still a loving marriage would have made Ned’s tearing the family apart more poignant and Catelyn’s grief more believable. And yes, the 18-49 demographic includes people over 40, the vast majority of whom do have a sex life! This is HBO, not the CW.

    Finally, it wouldn’t be stretch to assume that Yara Greyjoy has a salt husband or two. Margaery Tyrell may well have a mute man-servant to tide her over (surprise: he writes messages to Varys!). Melisandre’s scene with Stannis can’t possibly have really satisfied her. There’s plenty of opportunity for giving more of the (grown-up!) female characters an active sex life, even if we don’t get to see their naughty bits all of the time (or ever, cp. Cersei and Lancel).

    In Qarth, I bet Amrita Acharia could have pulled off feeling the heft of a stone pestle for just a little too long before using it to grind spiced meat for the dragons in the mortar. Women don’t stop having sexual desire just because their men are not around (any longer).

  105. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Dan: that some women think they are just like men when it comes to these things

    but you know, you are not a woman so maybe you just don´t want to be “that” sure??? I don´t like debates to be honest but there is probably some truth in what the girls are telling you, I mean that women are often afraid to openly say what they really think for fear of being wrongly judged. You should take that into account.

    Dan: Louis CK is the shit too.

    I remember every word that Louie says. I love him.

    Oh well, Sijjvra just told you the same thing. I´m late, what a surprise.

  106. Alan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Can we have a separate thread for Neil Marshall. I’m tired of the overdone argument about nudity. Have it, done have it (although that person who said the Roxanne McKee nude was unnecessary doesn’t understand the word :) ), have swinging dong or make ass or whatever service the ladies and gay guys; have Loras going down on Renly and show it, I don’t care.

    Not all of it is going to appeal to me, but I don’t get how prudish people are about it. It’s just a visual, and just of sex. People were fine with torture, people’s heads getting chopped in half. So what if we show Theon’s penis or female full frontal or even Renly and Loras getting it on? Honestly, if we all just went around naked for like three days, we’d all be over this and we could get on with life.

  107. Alan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    BTW, I was serious about wondering if we could have a second thread just for talking about the other elements of the interview. It’s completely lost here and it’s really interesting.

  108. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Sijjvra,

    You can’t prove how often someone thinks about sex. Those studies are rediculous to begin with.

    The irony.

  109. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: I knew it! I KNEW the execs were pushing them, and saying crap like that..

    The whole problem was that this was how so much of it felt – that it wasn’t really there, organically, from the creative minds, but was pushed into the scene because the execs were saying:
    “Come ON! It’s HBO! Why make something with us if you DONT take advantage of the full frontal?”

    See how one slip of the tongue can penetrate the carefully constructed public face of the showrunners? The jackass who took Mr. Marshall aside and told the truth about the “lofty and artistic” decision-making process/staying true to the books, etc., did us all a favor: thanks, pal. You make those of us women who’ve been defending the show, myself included, look like idiots. I plan to stop. Mr. Marshall, you are going down with the ship but in a good cause.

    Fool me once, fool me twice, etc.

    D&D, if it wasn’t one of you, whoever it was deserves to be fired. If it was, look in the mirror, asshole, and think about a public apology.

    For those who think this is a good way to run a show, Cinemax/Pay per View is one click away.

  110. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Sijjvra,

    Ok, you’re right. Women are just like men when it comes to sex. No difference in desire or depravity. The fact the markets servicing these desires overwhelming cater towards men is not relevant at all. It’s a fluke and just a multibillion dollar missed opportunity that nobody has picked up on yet.

  111. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    No, you misunderstand. You can’t prove how often someone thinks about sex by doing a test like that. The only way you can objectively measure these things is through the market test.

  112. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    And for everyone pontificating about the lack of objection to the portrayed violence: hey, everyone over the age of three knows it’s all “make believe” violence—Tom and Jerry, anyone? The women who are buck naked in GOT are real people, not CGI’ed, and everyone knows that, too. Just because actual naked women are objectified to sell everything in the culture doesn’t mean you’re a prude if you don’t like it. It just means you are a feminist.

  113. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    The fact that the entertainment industry is missing out on a huge market in assuming women DON’T want this kind of thing is precisely the point many female viewers/readers/gamers make.
    The problem is not that the market doesn’t exist, but that both men and women have had it beaten into them it isn’t proper for women to act on their sexual desires. Besides, why would a largely male executive base want to give up their power by admitting women have just as much a spectrum of sexual needs/identities/personalities as men?

    DH87,

    Well said!

  114. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Of course there are variables to consider if you’re using survey methods to determine these things, but just as those tests are inevitably flawed, so too is any market test. It isn’t that such things don’t and can’t have anything to tell us, but I think more than anything they reflect the cultural leanings and beliefs of a society rather than inherent truths about human nature (and the content that shows up in movies, telvision, etc, has a lot to do with serving the interests of whoever’s paying the bills).

  115. Sijjvra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Sijjvra,

    Ok, you’re right. Women are just like men when it comes to sex. No difference in desire or depravity. The fact the markets servicing these desires overwhelming cater towards men is not relevant at all. It’s a fluke and just a multibillion dollar missed opportunity that nobody has picked up on yet.

    Actually, that’s exactly it. The media is largely male-driven and male-owned. It’s skewed towards men. And yet, even on this very debate, and EVERY time this debate comes up, women are asking for male nudity and expressing a desire for their own eye-candy. Did you go register at that site I told you to check out? Maybe someone in the media -should-. Do you know that gay porn is actually pretty popular amongst women, especially younger and more sexually open women?

    You can color it any way you want, but most media is controlled by men and manipulated by men, even in this day and age. Or overbearing moms that have been pounded over the head with the “shame” of female sexuality. I’m not even a feminist and I can still see this fact. It’s right here in Game of Thrones. As much as I love the series, it is -not- equal in terms of male and female eye-candy. Let’s see some Jorah naked, or a full frontal of Gendry or something. Or Jaime. Here I am, as a woman, asking for it as many others on this site and other sites have asked for it, portrayed it, fanfic-written it, etc. Why do you think SO MANY WOMEN watch True Blood? That fanbase is very largely female. Yes, there are some male fans too, but a lot of girls I know who watch it watch it for the hot nude guys, since the storyline is pretty lazily done.

  116. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Dan: I still occasionally go to strip clubs. If only single men were going to strip club then this line of argument would hold water but that just isn’t the case. Last year, I went to a strip club with ten or so guys from work and all of us were in a relationship.

    Men go to strip clubs to bond with other men—the same reason construction workers hoot insults at pretty women, to show off for each other. Women bond with each other differently, but when they want to act like men (drinking and leering), they do go to Chippendale’s style entertainment. If you don’t believe me, check out the demos for “Magic Mike” when it is released at the end of the month.

  117. Lex
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    DH87
    D&D, if it wasn’t one of you, whoever it was deserves to be fired. If it was, look in the mirror, asshole, and think about a public apology.

    Public apology?!? Sigh… this is fast becoming one of the worst threads ever.

  118. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra: they reflect the cultural leanings and beliefs of a society rather than inherent truths about human nature

    You´re right…and sometimes what they reflect is just lies (in this case women´s lies?, well kind of).

  119. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    but you know, you are not a woman so maybe you just don´t want to be “that” sure??? I don´t like debates to be honest but there is probably some truth in what the girls are telling you, I mean that women are often afraid to openly say what they really think for fear of being wrongly judged. You should take that into account.

    I understand that women are judged more than men for their sexual activity. I’m not denying that. But a lot of that is coming from other women. Still, regardless of the reasons why women are the way they are doesn’t change anything I’m saying. Maybe if people didn’t judge women for their sexual thoughts or activities then they would be just like men but that isn’t the world we live in. I’m just looking at this from a purely economic view. If I wanted to start a business and I had to choose whether it catered to the sexual proclivity of men or women then I would cater towards men. I would make a lot more money doing that. That isn’t me being sexist or not understanding women. That is me understanding that men are the better market for that type of thing. That has always been the case.

    I’m not disparaging women by saying they have more control when it comes to sex and are less depraved. That is a compliment.

  120. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    It’s not lost. Go ahead and talk about it. I agree, it’s a great interview. If people want to discuss the other elements as well, they’ll join in.

  121. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Public apology?!? Sigh… this is fast becoming one of the worst threads ever.

    Sorry to have contributed to your malaise, but if you don’t believe someone needs to do some damage control to hold on to all segments of the fan base, you are more optimistic than I am.

    Edit to clarify: if the belief that the show needs more gratuitous sex doesn’t require the apology, the stupidity of allowing the truth to come out does. Take your pick.

  122. Zack
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    A_S00,

    Fully in support of the Good/bad listing there and the overall points made by both you and Ours is the Fury.

    I like porn. Porn is the best. But I don’t need to feel pandered to on the basis of my age/gender. I don’t need full frontal which is only there to titillate and distract from the story. Which is clearly an issue, from Neil’s anecdote. Oddly, though, the scene in question, Bronn’s, was one of the scenes in which the nudity didn’t seem overly out-of-place. I felt like that scene worked quite well.

    I’m also conscious of the fact that a large chunk of the show’s viewers are female, yet the nudity skews greatly in favor of male preferences. Unfair. If they are attempting to depict a world full of filth, love, harshness and truth, it would more easily come across in that way were the camera to show more than just the females, right? The way it is feels artificial, not reality. Marketing. And, apparently, how it comes across is actually the truth of the situation. Who could’ve guessed?

    Anyway, moving forward…it’s pretty safe to say that Marshall directed one of the, if not outright, best episodes in the series to date. I think Episode 13 might be better, but…this one is up there. If he is willing to return, I hope those responsible don’t miss the chance. I’ve been a fan since The Descent. Never figured he would disappoint.

  123. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Or you could make even more money by choosing a niche market that isn’t catered to particularly but that comprises half the population. ;p

    Seriously. My friend runs a sex shop and most of their clientele is female. They make extra money on the side showing middle aged women how to have better orgasms.

  124. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I understand what you mean, really, but like Steve Hugh W. tells you, the market may also based on lies (of that things women don´t tell, for example). Actually, it seems that in reality what you say is true because if not that hbo executive had not said what he said. Or instead we would have a woman saying the same thing at Marshall´s ear but about men. But what do I know.

  125. Knurk
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    andrea:
    Dan,

    don´t take me seriously Dan,I probably misunderstood Sue.
    One thing I know: men don´t have to be beautiful or muscular for me so I have nothing to do in a strip club. (I like Louie CK if that tells you something).
    And I also like men who can´t dance.

    you are tempting me to send you all kind of crazy naked pictures of myself when Louis CK is your standard. Must refrain, must refrain.

  126. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Sijjvra: Or Jaime.

    NCW has a no-nudity clause in his contract, so there you go.

  127. Wolfheart
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    HAH! Producers are shoehorning in non cannon nude scenes and sexposition because they are pervs and want pervs to be happy confirmed. HAH!

    the SNL skit hit the nail on the head about the sex. Might be why it was such a hot button!

    I’d like to add that the gratuitous violence in Blackwater seems to be overlooked compared to the nudity in the season. I wonder how much money they could have saved to budget something else in VFX such as oh I dont know…dragons or direwolves, if they didn’t involve someones head being cut in half or a rock falling and smashing in their skull. At least the Sandor cutting someone in half showed how powerful he was.

  128. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    As Steve Hugh says the market has always been pretty slow when it comes to “discovering” a profit in female sexuality. It’s hilarious to me that they only recently mapped the clitoris using an MRI machine. They found that it’s longer and has more nerve endings than the penis. Not to get into a penis/clitoris war (har har) but I’m bringing this up to illustrate how scientists don’t even understand female sexuality yet, so it goes without saying that entrepreneurs don’t understand it either.

    Dan: Ok, one last time. I fully understand that women like men’s bodies. The question is do they like the male body as much as men like the female body.

    No, the question is – why does culture (through GoT in this case) silence female audiences’ enjoyment of sexuality and encourage men’s? Using the market to prove your hypothesis of decreased female desire of male bodies compared to male desire of female bodies would get you kicked out of social science research methods 101.

    I’m not sure you girls understand how depraved the male mind truly is at times. Have you ever been in a porn store that has video rooms in the back? If so, did you ever think about what the men are doing back there?

    “You girls.” That’s cute. Oh, my virginal mind, it can’t fathom the depths!

    That is out in fricking public.

    Oh, and women don’t masturbate and do sick things in public? Come to my college town at 1:00 on a Friday.

    Thank God that women are not as depraved as men or the world wouldn’t function.If women thought like men then people would have sex every time they stepped out of their house.

    This is funny; you should give your gender more credit than making them mindless robots who can’t control themselves. Anyway – we aren’t arguing about ability to control sexual urges and do productive things, we’re arguing about the frequency (and intensity) of male vs. female desire, right? For all you know, women could be multitasking: thinking about sex while getting. shit. done. ;)

  129. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    ahahahahahaha… I wonder: Can you dance?
    it´s the beer Knurk, makes you bold.

  130. Zack
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Best post ever? I think perhaps so.

  131. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    DH87 You make those of us women who’ve been defending the show, myself included, look like idiots. Fool me once, fool me twice, etc.

    DH, I too would like to ride the wave of your righteousness. Right on! But I’m curious in what manner you defended the show – you mean, believing in good faith that they weren’t showing T&A just for marketing purposes?

  132. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Alright, I’ll try this one more time since I am a glutton for punishment. I fully understand that women like sex. I understand that women like to look at men naked. I understand that there are women on here calling for more male nudity. I understand that some women are just as depraved as the most depraved man. Ok, are we clear on that?

    So the question is, are women and men the same when it comes to their level of desire for sex and seeing nudity? Not whether they desire these kind of things at all but who has the higher level of desire. I say it’s men, and I’m backing this up with the fact that the markets for these desires are much more heavily catering towards men. This is an objective fact. It is not an opinion based on personal experiences. The market is so massively geared towards catering to men that it shouldn’t even really be a debate. It is not a realistic argument to say, “The media is largely male-driven and male-owned. It’s skewed towards men.” That doesn’t even begin to explain why businesses would be willing to give up billions in profits. I would be willing to video tape guys wangs all day long if it meant I could become rich as shit. This would be such an easy market void to fill if it actually was a void. Forget women filling this void. Straight men, gay men, green men, blue men, would start catering more towards women in a second if it made them more money than catering towards men. If you really disagree I suggest you get busy making bank proving me wrong. Otherwise, I can’t take you seriously that you disagree with me but just don’t want to be rich.

  133. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    The fact that the entertainment industry is missing out on a huge market in assuming women DON’T want this kind of thing is precisely the point many female viewers/readers/gamers make.

    The market doesn’t assume women don’t want this kind of thing. Otherwise, there would be no male nudity. What the market assumes, and I think correctly, is that they can make more catering towards men than women when it comes to this. People keep confusing this point.

  134. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Meg: DH, I too would like to ride the wave of your righteousness. Right on! But I’m curious in what manner you defended the show – you mean, believing in good faith that they weren’t showing T&A just for marketing purposes?

    Yes, the belief that they were making the best show possible with good-faith choices (even though I disagreed with them from the time of hiring Bianco, Kelkilli, et al.— my relentless criticism of Ros and Shae got me pretty regular pastings here) caused me to hold GOT up as something to emulate. That’s over. If we women want to watch calculated sexposition, we’ve got plenty to choose from elsewhere, offered without apology. It’s the hypocrisy that’s galling.

    And re: the larger issue that’s being batted around— in almost every culture female sexuality is linked to violence and repression, which does tend to dull the buzz for the ladies!

    Child marriage, female sexual mutilation, sexual slavery, honor killings, date rape, etc., are all methods of maintaining dominance and preserving property rights to women and their reproductive (and sexual) existence. Men control the world’s disposable income so they just buy what they can’t get through other means. It all works out nicely, regardless of the biology of desire. Money and political power are the aphrodisiacs; the sex is just the collateral byproduct of the market.

  135. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Otherwise, there would be no male nudity.

    As other folks have mentioned, women aren’t the only—and may not even be the primary—market for male nudity. Men of all orientations may just be more willing to pay to see nudity than are women—and have the mean$ to do so. If I recall correctly, subscribers to Play Girl turned out to be 50 percent male, and that fact was often given as the rationale for including a specific variety of photo supposedly favored by that demographic.

  136. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    It does explain it if up until recently (and currently, to a large degree) people didn’t believe women had as high sex drives as men (which you don’t, by your own admission). For a lot of people (even very good people), it’s difficult to see outside one’s own perspective and imagine what someone different might want, or that they could want something that you yourself find uninteresting or unappealing. Just because you don’t recognize the market, doesn’t mean it isn’t there waiting.

    If you want to think of it another way, consider race in American film and television. Comparative to the number of movies made with white protagonists, there are few films featuring non-white protagonists in starring roles, at least not ones married to stereotype. That said, you probably wouldn’t argue that the reason is that non-white people don’t want to see themselves represented in the media. Rather, you might suggest that it is because those making the movies and funding the movies all come from a similar background and either ignore that potential market out of ignorance or because of the more nefarious desire to keep hold of the power they already have.

    Also, I’m pretty sure there are a lot of things one could do to make a lot of money in a short span of time, but I for one won’t be doing them. (;

  137. The Lightning Lord
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    I believe all of you are taking this rather too much seriously. Marshall obviously meant it in a quite tongue-and-cheek sort of way, and the podcast as a whole resembles one you’d rather have at a pub, casual banter, than a genuine, serious conversation on the actual behind-the-scenes stuff at the show. Does it seem like from this season the sex has been over the top?

  138. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    You should go fill a small piece of this multibillion market void then and make it rich. Clearly, you have figured out the business possibility of a lifetime.

  139. Luana
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Dan: I’m just looking at this from a purely economic view. If I wanted to start a business and I had to choose whether it catered to the sexual proclivity of men or women then I would cater towards men. I would make a lot more money doing that. That isn’t me being sexist or not understanding women. That is me understanding that men are the better market for that type of thing. That has always been the case.

    Well, you’re clearly not going to be the next Steve Jobs.

  140. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    The Lightning Lord: Does it seem like from this season the sex has been over the top?

    I think some of us are differentiating between sex and nudity in this discussion.

  141. LordStarkington
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Saying the producers are perverts or something because they hired Sibel Kekilli is silly. She’s not a porn actress, she’s an actress that did porn briefly a decade ago and was in mainstream German films afterwards. It’s silly to include her because it’s explicitly clear that she tried to move on from that (and the only reason it was known is because German media members publicized it, which – among other things – caused her family to disown her). She was nominated for awards for a couple of different roles.

    If they wanted to play up the sex angle, I’m pretty sure they could have cast any of a number of “actresses” in her place and not gone with someone who did porn 10 years ago but has been doing mainstream work since then.

    The show has a male gaze (not exactly news there), but that particular casting is not really problematic.

  142. Ed
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Hahahaaaa!! Well said Ryan…

    Ryan E:
    Hell I love the books, but I’d rather have Viserys talking about ancient dragons with a hot naked Doreah on his lap than sitting on a horse talking to Jorah or something.

  143. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    I’d also like to point out that this idea of women as the less sexual gender is a relatively modern development. In the past, women were often portrayed as the more lascivious, sex; a belief that was used to malign them, rather than to serve as someone’s business plan.

  144. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    It does explain it if up until recently (and currently, to a large degree) people didn’t believe women had as high sex drives as men (which you don’t, by your own admission). For a lot of people (even very good people), it’s difficult to see outside one’s own perspective and imagine what someone different might want, or that they could want something that you yourself find uninteresting or unappealing. Just because you don’t recognize the market, doesn’t mean it isn’t there waiting.

    Explain to me why male gay porn doesn’t sell as well as female gay porn. Why do porn magazines depicting naked women sell enormously better than mags showing naked men? You guys would have an argument if nothing out there selling the male body existed but it does in abundance. It just doesn’t sell nearly as well as things selling the female body. This isn’t some good people finding it difficult to see outside their own perspective. This is men going out and spending billions to see women naked and women are spending a lot less. Until women start spending more this isn’t going to change.

  145. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Luana,

    Well, you’re clearly not going to be the next Steve Jobs.

    Why, did Steve Jobs make his money catering towards women’s desires to see men naked?

  146. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    I think the problem is using the market to prove evolutionary psychological theories about sex drives. The market is an imperfect measure so it’s better to say “this is imperfect” or “it’s a guess” instead of “this proves it.” But what confounds the hypothesis is that most of women’s expressions of desire doesn’t need a market – people write fanfic for free! When it is marketable, consider the sheer number of sales for romance novels. Go to any used bookstore owner and ask them what keeps their business afloat. Again, women are fantasizing about sex with men, they just aren’t doing it highly visible (or monetary) ways. Speaking quite generally, women have always been more texty with their desire, and more willing to queer it (I mean, think outside the gender/sexuality binary)

    If you want to prove that as a gender men think about sex more often than women, fine, but now we’re moving away from the complaints by women about the lack of fanservice in Game of Thrones. Even if women “as a demographic group” DID think about naked men less than their counterparts (and I think this thinking is flawed), it doesn’t mean that it has to be a show ONLY for the male gaze. The worst thing is that the show is making stupid marketing decisions using tired old gender roles as “proof” of what audience members want. What the fuck do they know about women? This stale thinking isn’t worthy of (what could be) an outside-the-box show, using sex in more creative ways. To my mind, it seems like the executives are marketing GoT as the “male sex fantasy” and True Blood as the “female sex fantasy,” when there’s no reason why we can’t have both. Or, just better sex/story integration (which goes back to my point about texty sex and “the story” leading up to sex being a bigger draw for women in some cases). Or, just give us male full frontal and we’ll shut up (for now!)

    ETA: Oh my god I did not mean to write this much!! I’m sorry if I’ve taken over the thread.

  147. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I, for one, am seriously hoping to see A LOT more of NCW next season! Hey, a girl can dream…

  148. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who seems to think it was all in jest? Even if it wasn’t, there is more male genitalia on this show than say, True Blood. And considering it takes place in a more midieval setting, is the objectification of women that strange?

  149. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    As other folks have mentioned, women aren’t the only—and may not even be the primary—market for male nudity. Men of all orientations may just be more willing to pay to see nudity than are women—and have the mean$ to do so. If I recall correctly, subscribers to Play Girl turned out to be 50 percent male, and that fact was often given as the rationale for including a specific variety of photo supposedly favored by that demographic.

    Yes, that would help make the point that men are the more sexually driven of the two sexes. If women really had the same desire to see men naked as men do to see women naked then this would not be the case.

  150. DH87
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: The show has a male gaze (not exactly news there), but that particular casting is not really problematic.

    Since we aren’t privy to the contractual terms of all the actors, only those who have made a point of divulging them, we don’t know who would have agreed to what. Again, I differentiate between full-frontal nudity, which might have been acceptable to, say, Miss Clarke, and simulated sex acts, with or without penetration, which might not have been. I said from the beginning that the hiring of actresses with that background, regardless of whether they were currently working successfully in the so-called legitimate theatre, telegraphed that more explicit material was going to be included in GOT than was typically asked of so-called legitimate actors. Contractual requirements for body doubles, for example, in nude scenes have been common among top-tier actresses for years, so much so that the Julia Roberts character in Notting Hill (1999) jokes about having a “stunt bottom” in all her films.

    But I have no vendetta against Ms. Kekilli, who is receiving good critical reviews in GOT, just not from me. :) Each actor makes decisions on this issue at different stages of his/her career and project-by-project.

  151. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I’m pretty sure gay male pornstars make more than female pornstars (or straight male pornstars), so I’m not entirely convinced that this is true.
    I think there’s also a lot more to consider in terms of some of these videos and magazines. For one, I suspect a lot of stores that are fine selling straight men’s magazines, might baulk at the idea of anything with gay content (lesbians tend to get more of a pass). So, availability may still be an issue, as well as the fact that most women are still taught they -shouldn’t- want these things. It’s this disregard that’s caused (I would hazard a guess) the explosion of erotic fanfiction and regular erotic fiction all over the internet (which is probably easy to miss if you don’t travel in the right circles, but if you do you’ll quickly realize it’s out there en masse). The medium may be different (because the porn industry as it is now has a history of catering to men), but there are still media out there that do represent a huge demand.
    Then there’s the fact that much of what people watch is online anyway, and more difficult to trace. The sections for women on porn sites are smaller, generally, but there’s still quite a bit of content. Much like men, I’m sure women don’t just watch the categories that are designated as “female porn” anyway. There are a lot of shots of male bodies in straight porn.
    This is not the same as titillating content on TV shows, or sexualized depictions of bodies on comic covers or in the mainstream in general.

  152. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: it was all in jest

    I’m starting to think that it is, because otherwise the comment is too naive (or mean-spirited which makes no sense for a film director)

  153. Dan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    My comment that started this discussion was this, “Plus men tend to enjoy female nudity more than women enjoy male nudity. Otherwise we wouldn’t see such a dearth of strip clubs for women.”

    The reason I brought this up was because a huge reason you see more female nudity on tv over male nudity is because men pay for it in much greater abundance. If I’m running a business then I’ll be selling what the people buy more of and that is without a doubt female nudity in this instance. If the women want to see more male nudity then they will have to start paying for more male nudity. Otherwise, the people making business decisions are going to keep representing the people paying their bills.

  154. Alan
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    So, the rest of the interview…

    * I would pay to see a Liam Cunningham vehicle

    * I find it interesting to see where and when choices are made. Marshall basically created much of the gore-level of the action (which was obvious if you’ve seen his work) and I assume that’s why D&D hired him, but the Stannis scenes basically being created on set is very cool. It’s somewhat unreasonable, doesn’t jive really with the character, but you can see why they did it and how directors think. (“It’d be boring otherwise”)

    * Marshall is too honest for his own good. HBO does have a clique of directors and if this commentary on the sex blows up, I doubt we see him related to HBO again. It’s a shame, because he’s fun.

    * Speaking of honesty, his take on Lena Headey was intriguing — something to the effect of they really know how to write for her. Not sure if that was a bit of a backhanded compliment or just a honest assessment of the writing here and not a commentary on other work. But it’s true. Lena has been killing it this season, but I wonder if its partially because the writers and the actress are more in sync to what she does well and where she wants to go. Very few actors crush an entire range, and fit is very important.

    * I don’t get the feeling he liked Centurion all that much. “No one has ever asked for a sequel.” And he was surprised when George was a big fan of Centurion.

    * People get their panties in a wad when people don’t read the books, but Marshall — who is not used to not owning 100% of the creative on a job — came in with two weeks, didn’t even watch or read all the shows, and did a bang up job. Part of that was…

    * …we got exposure to how involved Martin really is! I’ve always assumed he was less involved than most assumed, but Marshall made it sound like he was bouncing ideas directly off him, which says a lot. It also says a lot about D&D and how attuned they are to Martin that is seemed Marshall had direct access — something that I don’t think every show runner would be okay with.

    * I’d love to see Marshall do either of the battle scenes at the Wall or RVvGC</b.. I think he can do a bunch of the other stuff as well, but I don't think he's leaps and bounds ahead of someone like Alan Taylor except in his action execution — where bang for the buck he may be the best person out there (certainly one of the best). So if they bring him back, I hope there's a big fight there.

    * "I love a good bar scene."

  155. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Darth Valyria:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    What gives? You went a whole comment without using the phrase “a woman.” A man is a bit disappointed in a woman.

    A woman should have typed, “A woman would love to see him direct more of the action-oriented episodes.” A woman missed the edit!

  156. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    so, Marshall wanted more explosions??? O_O
    Yes, I´m trying to listen but it´s really hard, they talk very fast!
    And Marshall is in love with Bronn.

  157. Lisa
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    I don’t think prudishness is the problem here. I don’t mind nudity one bit, and I love that Westeros is a very real, sexual place- not safe and neutered like previous fantasy worlds. But when nudity’s being crammed in there in place of actual story developments and the showrunner’s doing it on purpose, it’s sort of a problem.

    Well said! I agree fully!

  158. andrea
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Alan: but I wonder if its partially because the writers and the actress are more in sync to what she does well and where she wants to go.

    I think that’s what happened. I have a feeling that it was kind of arrangement: “this is what I think of this character and in this way I can do it? Clearly, Lena Headey´s Cersei is not book-Cersei. I don´t like her in season 1 but I do indeed in this season.

  159. Zack
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Meg: ETA: Oh my god I did not mean to write this much!! I’m sorry if I’ve taken over the thread.

    You could write more and most of us wouldn’t mind. You make great points.

  160. Meg
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Yes, the belief that they were making the best show possible with good-faith choices (even though I disagreed with them from the time of hiring Bianco, Kelkilli, et al.— my relentless criticism of Ros and Shae got me pretty regular pastings here) caused me to hold GOT up as something to emulate. That’s over. If we women want to watch calculated sexposition, we’ve got plenty to choose from elsewhere, offered without apology. It’s the hypocrisy that’s galling.

    Well, this season is quite telling in the Ros department, isn’t it? I liked her at first. I think the actress is charming. I think Esme has more on-screen chemistry with Dinklage than Kelkilli. As the only female commoner and prostitute to boot (sadly lacking in Martin’s POVs) I didn’t mind the new story lines they created for her. The only problem is, they didn’t create any story lines for her. Instead, they used her as a plot device. She’s not a person in her own right, she just goes through the ringer for the purposes of plot. If she was as well written as Trixie in Deadwood she would have had a scene where she attempts revenge, yells at the sky, or some kind of reaction shot. So yeah, my thinking has changed: if she was just a device all along, then don’t even write her in. There you go, the evolution of a Ros-hater.

  161. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted June 1, 2012 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    paylor,

    You honestly believe that the average women likes male nudity as much as the average man likes female nudity? I’m shocked this is even debatable. The only way that you can actually test this theory is to look at the market for nudity. It is heavily dominated by female nudity. Whether we look at strip clubs, porn, pay for cable, etc. it is way more devoted to satisfying men. If it is true that women, on average, like male nudity as much as men like female nudity then you have a chance to make billions filling the huge gap in that market.

    A woman must add that it is most likely due to social norms and pressures that women are generally less overt about their desires to see male nudity. This woman was a singer and performed live music to accompany male strippers a few times years ago…believe that the female audience was rather vocally excited! They even lined up for individual embraces and autographs from favorite dancers.

    In time, perhaps it will even out, but most women are brought up to believe it is not “ladylike” to ogle or vocally express their appreciation for the male form, and become more reserved about it and even repressed at times. So, we are evolving. It is also understood that some of the supposedly male and female nude actors are actually covered by false body parts (merkins, particularly in lower frontal regions) in order to make them feel more comfortable on set. So, maybe half the time it’s not even real nudity. Whatevs. It’s HBO.

  162. LordStarkington
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    DH87: I said from the beginning that the hiring of actresses with that background, regardless of whether they were currently working successfully in the so-called legitimate theatre, telegraphed that more explicit material was going to be included in GOT than was typically asked of so-called legitimate actors.

    Reading the books (or having even a passing grasp of the story or the types of shows HBO/premium cable channels produce) would telegraph that more explicit material than normal would be included, which is why a more established actress like Lena Headey got her no-nudity clause and body double for season 1.

    The problem I had with your statement, which was the point of my post, is that Sibel Kekilli is an award-winning German actress who did porn 10 years ago, and if the producers of the show were really simply hiring actresses with a “particular background”, she’s a really odd choice to make for that reason. I don’t think them casting her has anything to do with the larger issue; after all, they’ve really toned Shae’s titillation factor quite a bit in the show and made her a more substantive character (for better or worse).

    Esme Bianco wasn’t a porn actress (I don’t think? I vaguely remember her being referred to as a burlesque dancer or something), but her character is more emblematic of the problem since she largely only showed up to be naked at first and now that she’s involved in the plot she’s still hated for being naked by some *and* is largely a plot device on top of it. I don’t really see that as the same as the casting of Kekilli/the portrayal of Shae on the show, especially seeing how the characters have evolved over the two seasons. Ironically, Ros hasn’t even been nude this season (or has she, he wonders) that I can recall, but the character’s still problematic given the way she was introduced, regardless of the fact she’s filling a plot role in playing the equivalent of Alayaya.

    In any case, I think Marshall’s statement is being taken way too literally.

    Some of the nudity still feels both out of place and unnecessary (the scene last episode was short but definitely felt forced/unnecessary), some of the scenes are genuine sexposition I have less of a problem with (Theon/captain’s daughter, as it serves the same “hey, Theon’s kind of a clueless idiot with big ambitions about the ironborn” purpose it has in the books). Some scenes are somewhere in between (Osha sleeping with Theon – it had a plot purpose but wasn’t necessary, I don’t think). The same for Joffrey/prostitutes (although I doubt the vast majority of people found that scene titillating in the way the other scenes), in my mind, since Joffrey’s pretty clearly a monster.

    I’m curious to see what they do next season. I suppose they might give the (imo) gratuitous Irri/Dany lesbian scene to Doreah if she’s alive but I’m hoping they’re excising it. There’s the potential for more “equal” nudity with Daario, maybe Jon (not sure if he has a no-nudity clause). We didn’t see any of Robb in his scene this season so I doubt we will next but I suppose that’s a possibility (Madden did show some skin in Sirens from what the fans on tumblr are eager to post so who knows).

  163. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Yeah I would agree with all of that.

  164. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    I think it would be even worse to create a storyline for D&D’s “creators pet” character in an attempt to justify her whore/brothel scenes. I find it annoying enough when she is on screen but at least she (or the brothel house or her other whore friends) is just there to be a plot device for another characters backstory. If D&D wasted precious screen time to give Ros her own storyline and elavate her to a POV character that would be horrible.

    From seeing next weeks teaser it appears Ros will be with us in season 3. Who knows she may even eventually sit on the Iron Throne (with her legs wide open).

    Like I said before this is D&D’s translation but it should be called;

    “Game of Thrones, A Song of Ice and Fire… And a Whore Named Ros”

    Ros is a walking, talking doorway to whore scenes that degrade women for, what D&D perceives, to be men’s viewing pleasure. We have Robb’s storyline and soon we will have Jon’s storyline that both include beautiful women. Why can’t they give us those meaningful sex scenes instead of Ros/brothel scenes? All well, maybe they have some co-exe producer standing over their shoulder whispering;

    “More whore scenes please… Go get Ros”.

    It really makes my stomach churn…

  165. Pleonasm
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    Alan:
    *…we got exposure to how involved Martin really is!I’ve always assumed he was less involved than most assumed, but Marshall made it sound like he was bouncing ideas directly off him, which says a lot.It also says a lot about D&D and how attuned they are to Martin that is seemed Marshall had direct access — something that I don’t think every show runner would be okay

    I didn’t get the same impression that you did from the interview. It’s possible George was on the set, but more likely it was A staff writer and D&D. And given how little prep time he had, it was much more likely the collaboration was more with the stunt and effects team.

    Too often people are to quick to give credit of the finished production to the credited writer (in this case George) but often the credited writer may only be responsible for only a small amount of the finished product.

  166. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Meg: So yeah, my thinking has changed: if she was just a device all along, then don’t even write her in. There you go, the evolution of a Ros-hater.

    Even worse—-she’s not “just a device” but just an attractive naked body, if the Marshall quote is legit.
    But, welcome just the same, friend—there’s a cozy spot here by the fire with the rest of us crones.

    And characterizing True Blood as HBO’s eye candy for women, as someone did down thread, recalls Joe Manganiello’s reply about whether he’d been told by showrunners that he was too tall, too muscled, and too butch to be cast in their shows: “Not when you’re auditioning for Alan Ball.”

  167. LordStarkington
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Now, since I agree 100% with Alan that the interview had a lot of good stuff to talk about beyond sexposition/nudity;

    Alan:
    So, the rest of the interview…

    * I find it interesting to see where and when choices are made.Marshall basically created much of the gore-level of the action (which was obvious if you’ve seen his work) and I assume that’s why D&D hired him, but the Stannis scenes basically being created on set is very cool.It’s somewhat unreasonable, doesn’t jive really with the character, but you can see why they did it and how directors think.(“It’d be boring otherwise”)

    I also think they wanted to give TV Stannis something to grab the viewers with. Prior to this episode you see him murder his brother via black magic, cheat on his wife with super hot and apparently evil Melisandre and complain about being disrespected. There’s a sense he might actually be a good king but no real reason to root for him beyond his impeccable grammar. Showing his badass side helps a bit, as will (ASOS spoilers) him arriving at the Wall in Season 3/4

    * Marshall is too honest for his own good.HBO does have a clique of directors and if this commentary on the sex blows up, I doubt we see him related to HBO again.It’s a shame, because he’s fun.

    I think he should be fine. This debate has existed since last season and what he did was so well-received that I have a hard time believing HBO will care unless the issue affects the bottom line substantially.

    *I don’t get the feeling he liked Centurion all that much.“No one has ever asked for a sequel.”And he was surprised when George was a big fan of Centurion.

    It’s an okay fluff action piece but I don’t blame him if that’s how he feels. It’s pretty forgettable.

    *People get their panties in a wad when people don’t read the books, but Marshall — who is not used to not owning 100% of the creative on a job — came in with two weeks, didn’t even watch or read all the shows, and did a bang up job.Part of that was…

    I’ve seen only a few people saying the episode was bad/unacceptable because of that which I am thankful for. Linda over at Westeros was really harsh towards Lena Headey’s performance on her tumblr which I found odd but, well, yeah.

    I also wouldn’t mind seeing him handle the Battle at the Wall or maybe one of the battle episodes in the East if we get one, although that might be even more expensive given the even bigger scale of the world out there.

  168. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    For what it’s worth, neither Ros nor Shae has been nude this season.

  169. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    FWIW re: the Marshall quote: there are only two “executive producers”—Dan and Dave. Everyone else—Strauss, Casady, Martin, Geradis, and Vicinanza (who I believe died but retained his billing due to his long relationship with GRRM)—is a “co-executive producer.”

    I’m going to say only D. or D. would have the, ah, moxie, to say, “I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene” to a director of Marshall’s status and that someone with Marshall’s experience in Hollywood knows how important exact titles are there. Maybe “D.” wanted the decision to seem like Marshall’s and that’s why Marshall framed it as a directive.

    In any case, I’ll bet any amount it wasn’t someone from HBO. Anyone going to the next moot/media event? Why not ask D&D for us?

  170. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I don’t mind Shae at all. She is part of Tyrion’s storyline. It’s only Ros that bothers me.

    Ros is just used as a portal to a whore or brothel scene. Basically, unnecessary sexposition stuff. At least IMO…

  171. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    We’ve seen penises, where are the labial folds and clitorises?? I demand equality. I want vaginal openings not pubic hair.

  172. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: For what it’s worth, neither Ros nor Shae has been nude this season.

    Proof that on this show one naked lady is a good as another (Aremca/Salt wife/Lady Talisa . . . )

  173. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Dan:
    I agree with you that executives are making decisions that cater to a dependable customer. My point is that it’s a risky decision on their part, to ignore female fans. Believe me, we’ve been ignored by supply before, so of course we get frustrated when it comes to expressing our “demand.” Moreover, if you focus too heavily on “demographics” at the expense of story in your show, audience members are going see through that shit real quick. So I don’t dispute that men dominate supply and demand for production and consumption of sex on film. I’m saying that women have the capacity for the same demand, it’s just that the supply is paralyzed by a homophobic culture that dictates what “men won’t watch” (male full frontal) and misguided beliefs about the female sex drive. Some business owners are afraid that servicing women will = a loss in male viewers. IMO women shouldn’t have to convince execs that they want to see more male nudity (because the evidence is there if you know where to look–somewhere other than strip clubs and porn purchases), men should be convincing execs that they won’t freak out when it happens.

    Zack:
    Aww thanks, I’ll take that as permission to ramble away :)

    Arthur: If D&D wasted precious screen time to give Ros her own storyline and elavate her to a POV character that would be horrible.

    I am starting to come around to this view. Like I said at first I was hopeful about the creation of a new character who would be the first female commoner in the series. I thought it was an oversight on Martin’s part that he didn’t have one. Well, now I’m realizing that I don’t want to read D&D’s terrible fanfic version of it.

    DH87: Joe Manganiello

    Yeah he’s the definition of eye candy. Can’t act for shit and too purty to be in anything other than a live-action female romance novel cover.

  174. Hollyoak
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    All I have to say is this thread has some of the funniest comments ever on WiC: from men are stinky apes to…if women’s minds were as dirty as men nothing would ever get done.

    Hilarious. For the record, I think there should be equal amounts of nudity from both sides.

  175. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    You see, any straight man would tell you that Lady Talisa and Salt Wife are not equal. And whore #3 is not the same as the beautiful Melisandre.

    Top 3 nude scenes from this season:

    1 – Melisandre unrobing while seducing Stannis

    2 – Osha revealing what a wildling looks like

    3 – Talisa making Robb a man

    This beats True Blood and the male ass shots in every episode. If I don’t get some Pam action this season I am done.

  176. pleonasm
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    I’d be curious if the ‘nudity’ in GOT materially effects the ratings for the show. Do people switch channels if the opening warning doesn’t include a reference to nudity?

    After all, this is 2012. If someone wants crass exploitative sex scenes there is this thing called the internet. Its free and not too hard to find.

    Sometimes I wonder if HBO is still thinking this is the 1980′s.

    I am all for nudity in the service of the story or a character arc, but 75% of what we are seeing on GOT is not that.

  177. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Perhaps Kit is up to the task and won’t wimp out like Richard did this season. If not, I’m willing to be an ass double for Jon next season. I’d need to lose 30 pounds in a few months, but I’m willing to do so to make the male-to-female nudity ratio more equal.

  178. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I liked the Stannis/Mel scene too, it was hot!

    Although I thought it was odd that she seduced him with the promise of a son (a seduction that doesn’t translate too well in the modern world!). Wish she would have told him how the sorcery works, and have him roll with it. It would have been much more erotic while being true to Stannis’ character.

    My list for this season (ladies version):

    1 – Shirtless Gendry

    2 – A Man

    3 – dirty, muddy Jaime

    Unfortunately all of these guys are probably Nevernudes.

  179. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    Meg,
    IMO women shouldn’t be convincing the execs that they want to see more male nudity, men should be convincing execs that they won’t freak out when it happens.

    Didn’t men prove that after watching Oz on HBO for 6 seasons? I don’t remember hearing all the male viewers abandoning the show because they were homophobic and freaked out over male nudity.

  180. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    Cool little article I just found on Yahoo…

    How the actors of GoTs look in the series compared to how they look offscreen.

    http://tv.yahoo.com/photos/game-of-thrones-what-does-cast-really-look-like-slideshow/

  181. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    TP, I defer to your expert assessment (pun intended).

    Top three nude scenes from GOT S2 from the ladies’ perspective:

    1. Jaime disrobing while seducing Catelyn in the Stark camp, giving a whole new meaning to the term “prison of filth.” (Runner up: Jaime convincing Brianne to try a joint skinny dip prior to launching that canoe.)

    2. Robb revealing what a king in the north looks like from the south

    3. Our Khal giving a random Westeros lady a field trip up Mount Drogo in the hottest dream sequence ever.

    Oh. Wait. Those didn’t actually happen, did they?

  182. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Perhaps Danielle Steel should try her hand at midieval fantasy.

  183. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    It’s pretty well established that males are more easily aroused by visual stimulus than women. A cursory search of the literature confirms this and a quick google search turns up credible sources like this and this.

    It may offend egalitarian sexual ideals that this is the case, but c’est la vie. Men and women do not play identical roles in the reproductive process. A simplistic evolutionary story fits the pattern well: Men tend to see naked women only when they have an opportunity for sex. If they fail to become aroused, they miss a potential chance to reproduce. If women fail to become aroused by naked men, they just have bad sex.

    Apparently this doesn’t fit experience of some women on this site. In part that’s because there is a distribution of responses and individuals vary around the mean. Some women posting here may be outliers, and that’s ok! It may also reflect the fact that women posting here have underestimated how much more turned on the average man is by visual stimulus.

  184. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:43 am | Permalink

    JUST SHOW ME THE COCK PLEASE!

    James Purefoy did full frontal nudity in Rome. I was impressed. We need more male nudity on GoT, from the pretty guys. Come one guys GET NAKED.

  185. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Poor Alfie Allen. He went full frontal and he never gets any credit.

  186. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: Perhaps Danielle Steel should try her hand at midieval fantasy.

    With all respect to Ms. Steele, JR Ward, who writes paranormal urban fantasy, has the field pretty well covered insofar as play-by-play for the ladies is concerned.

  187. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    MetalgoddessAMB,

    JUST SHOW ME THE COCK PLEASE!

    Don’t be shy ladies…

    Let D&D know what will make you happy.

    Just tell the producers exactly what you want to see…

  188. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Season 3 is all about Jon and Ygritte doing the nasty in pretty much every scene. Kit needs to man up. I’m sure Rose is game.

  189. HouseLark
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    Syrio:
    I hate it when people make the simplistic argument that “why aren’t people more upset with the violence and sex”, such a silly knee jerk “argument” they probably read somewhere else and throw it out there as though they have an original thought.

    This is a series called “Game of Thrones”, power struggle, war, battles, are inherent part of the story, main characters whose lives are in danger constantly is an inherent part of the suspense the show offers.Now how can lives be in danger, and battles won without “violence”?Of course there is violence, violence is not only accepted but expected part of the fabric of the show. Gratuitous nude scenes are not.Note I didn’t say all sex scenes, just scenes that are there to be there, not really advancing the plot.

    Similarly, if for argument sake I’m watching a romance movie and there are suddenly for no good reason in the plot, heads are being chopped off and necks being slashed, just for the sake of gore, I’m going to complain that the violence was entire “gratuitous”.

    It’s not about having some stronger aversion to “sex” than “violence”.Game of Thrones doesn’t need to have gratuitous nude scenes, in fact they cheapen the show, the same way some gratuitous gore would be completely unnecessary and unwelcome in a different genre, and would cheapen that show or movie.

    Sex is part of life, more so than horrific removal of body parts and disemboweling. The thing is, most people aren’t necessarily bothered by the violence, it’s just that it’s no more or less offensive than sex and nudity. If GoT is going to reflect the whole world it is trying to create then naked bodies are going to be part of it. And I think you conflate sex with romance my friend… Again, read the books, graphic sex, nudity and even pretty horrible sex is very much part of GRRM’s world as it was in the medieval world he is trying to evoke.

    If there’s one argument that I’m sympathetic with it’s the one others have made that it’s all about female nudity. Give the women something too!

  190. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Pyrrhus, your argument makes sense psychologically but the evolutionary explanation is hard to prove, especially when what was erotic to a man in the 19th century (a woman’s ankles) wouldn’t trigger an “opportunity for sex” for today’s guy (unless he has an ankle fetish). I’m sure visual stimulus is a biological fact in the aggregate but the type of visual (nudity) is socially constructed. Any time someone makes an evolutionary claim about sex, I’m skeptical because it’s usually made without any evidence concerning similarities between ancestral and current group structures, mating structures, group sizes, or actual behavior. Is this story about “nudity->failure to become aroused=missed opportunity for sex” common across cultures and evolved specifically for human species fitness? Are you prepared to show that these preferences are adaptations in the deep past, and thus the product of natural selection? To show that I think you would need evidence concerning the heritability of this trait in our ancestors, and the genetic advantage it offered. In my (admittedly limited) readings in evopsych, they don’t do that; they merely describe modern-day psychological sex differences and then reverse engineer an evolutionary story to fit that description. But I may be wrong about this particular trait you bring up.

    That said,

    MetalgoddessAMB: JUST SHOW ME THE COCK PLEASE!

    yeaaaaaaaaaaah whip it out!

  191. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    Mimsy: HBO executive who acts as my representative! I hope that guy will be there when they film the ygritte/jon cave scene!!

    Yes, this woman suggested Charlize Theron for Val on one of the casting threads yesterday…sounds good for a cameo, right? Don’t know why the quote I was quoting didn’t show up here, this was in response to another person mentioning Theron’s interest in GoT and the thought of her to play Val.

  192. paylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:19 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    You don’t get out much do you? And don’t freakin presume you know anything about women and what they are attracted to. I like to see a nicely shaped male body like most of the women I know. And most of the gay men I know as well. Actually, I think that is what this really boils down to in the end. Straight dudes who get freaked out by the sight of naked men. Like somehow that will make them gay or something if they watch a show that eroticizes a man’s body. It’s homophobic, it’s sexist and it’s a sentiment that this show should be way past.

  193. WildSeed
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    Sijjvra,

    IT is NOT known, Any expert would refute your comment.

  194. WildSeed
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:39 am | Permalink

    Actually I enjoyed the actor whom portrays Jaime Lannister ( W Coster-Wald-something)
    joking reference to acting out a sex scene. He mentions that was goofy or funny in an
    awkward sort of way as cameras and stage hands are staring at you. That said I
    rather enjoyed the nude scenes ( with exception of the unnecessary Joffrey’s sadist
    torture) especially the males. These scenes are in context of the story and prevailing
    attitudes at the time. There wasn’t a whole lot of political correctness in the culture.
    And finally, speaking as a female, I find the male form interesting and attractive
    however never approaching the fascination and variety of the female body.

  195. WildSeed
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Nick Larter:
    Fantastic interview. HBO should keep Marshall up their sleeve and wheel him out for future big battle episodes like the siege of The Wall

    I agree, the details were crisp, even without the “chain”. The world was was in awe
    with this episode. There are many more in the upcoming GoT seasons if there is
    a go ahead for the projects. Did you see the SNL ( Saturday Night Live ) skit of GoT?

  196. Wes
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:53 am | Permalink

    I’ve been watching season eight of House, and there was a random cut to a scene where House and his team were watching a turtle race (yes, a TURTLE race) while discussing potential diagnoses. It occurred to me that this was basically “sexposition”. It put dialog that would otherwise bore the audience in an interesting setting to make it palatable to the audience.

    I’ve no problem with sex or nudity on television. I’m a little perturbed at the lack of balance between male and female nudity in GoT. I also feel like a lot of the time (not all) it’s used in the show it’s more distracting than anything else. A character revealing motives or developing himself is a bit more interesting than doctors talking about potential diagnoses and throwing out words the viewer has no understanding of. The former can be interesting all on its own. I don’t mind if they want to use sexposition some of the time, but I’m getting an impression of laziness in that it’s just something they default to, when instead they could actually try to be creative and come up with a more varied way of framing the exposition.

    The brief nudity in Blackwater wasn’t that obnoxious or distracting, at least. Sometimes it’s just ridiculous.

    Again, it’s not a problem with casually showing nudity and sex on television, it’s just that it seems sloppily done.

  197. loco73
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:00 am | Permalink

    Never had a problem with the nudity or sexuality on the show, so again, as others here have already mentioned, I am always miffed at all the whinning and complaining. I have seen far worse shows, use and abuse sexuality and nudity for no purpose other than the gratuitous nature of certain scenes that had no rhyme or reason for being present in that particular episode…Sex and nudity are natural, normal and part of life, and I for one I’m glad that a show has the balls to portray sex and nudity as in life, which at times is perverted, it is titilating, it can be sensual and romantinc, or awkward, violent and uncomfortable. It fits well with the kind of world and people both the novels and the show portray. So to me, that is that on this topic.

    I definitely hope that Neil Marshall will come back to GoT and direct other episodes, especially if he gets to work with George RR Martin again. These guys combined make for a helluva time and quality tv watching! In fact HBO could have this type of guest director spot open once per season. If the right people can be persuaded to come on-board, why not, if it yields results the unfreaking believable “Blackwater”!

  198. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:13 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: Yes, this woman suggested Charlize Theron for Val on one of the casting threads yesterday…sounds good for a cameo, right? Don’t know why the quote I was quoting didn’t show up here, this was in response to another person mentioning Theron’s interest in GoT and the thought of her to play Val.

    Correction, this one had thought of the other wilding woman, Mance’s wife Dara (think that’s her name), which would be a shorter commitment for a big star cameo role.

  199. HouseLark
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:24 am | Permalink

    One more thing to consider in the whole sex/nudity debate is that all art is gratuitous, that’s why it’s art. When it stops being gratuitous it becomes functional and nobody would be interested. It’s usually the gratuitous that makes something beautiful. You see this most often in architecture; buildings are just containers for rooms so why not build them as simply and cheaply as possible? All of these buildings are amazing but ultimately gratuitous.

    http://www.lonelyplanet.com/turkey/istanbul/travel-tips-and-articles/76556

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries/9220850/Are-these-the-worlds-most-beautiful-buildings.html?frame=2200797

  200. MoonCoffee
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:27 am | Permalink

    My biggest problem with nudity this season is Robb Stark keeping his pants on and Jaqen not taking a bath.

    Jon and Jaime, see that you make it up in S3.

  201. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Apart from the perv issue the most enlightening thing for me was to get a splendid example of what can happen during an adaptation like this. I’m thinking of the portrayal of Stannis. It seems that we would never have had the “non canon” Stannis scenes in ep 9 had not Marshall, who was not that familiar with the source material or the production at all really since he was a last minute replacement, decided that Stannis had to be more active in his scenes. I’m not complaining here, mind you, just pointing out the facts as I understand them. What we see on the screen is not a product of the show runners micro managing everything according to their grand design. It’s a lot more serendipitous or chaotic than that. For me, it is invaluable to get insights like this from people inside the production. Much more so that having people on the internet repeatedly yelling “It’s an ADAPTATION, get over it!”. ;-)

  202. ThePinkDragon
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    *pops head into thread*

    Ah, are we still talking about sexuality and nudity on the show?

    Is it too late for me to put in for an actual loving lesbian relationship? Queers watch this show too, you know.

  203. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    paylor,

    You don’t get out much do you? And don’t freakin presume you know anything about women and what they are attracted to. I like to see a nicely shaped male body like most of the women I know. And most of the gay men I know as well.

    What are you talking about? Did you even read what I’ve written above. How could I possibly make it any more clear that I understand women are attracted to the male body? I mean who the hell doesn’t understand this? At least everyone else who has disagreed with me has understood what the debate actually is about. You telling me the obvious fact that women and gay men like the male body, like I would ever disagree with that, is beyond bizarre. I would try to explain my argument again but I feel it is futile at this point if you think I was saying women don’t find naked men attractive.

    Actually, I think that is what this really boils down to in the end. Straight dudes who get freaked out by the sight of naked men. Like somehow that will make them gay or something if they watch a show that eroticizes a man’s body. It’s homophobic, it’s sexist and it’s a sentiment that this show should be way past.

    Nice strawman. Does it make you feel better to throw out a bunch of buzz words and create a cartoonish characterization of straight men? I do like how you tell me not to presume I know anything about women and then proceed to presume straight men are all homophobic and sexist. How enlightened of you.

  204. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:59 am | Permalink

    paylor,

    Obviously women are biologically hard wired to be attracted to men and the male form, but what you fail to understand is that men and women’s brain chemistry is not *exactly* the same. It has been proven in many scientific experiments that men respond much more than women to visual stimuli of a sexual nature. This is biology. I think it’s funny that you tell others not to presume to know what women are attracted to and immediately presume to know why men wouldn’t want to see a naked man or that they would be bothered by such a thing in the first place. Your frivolous accusation of sexism is ignorant and rather insulting.

  205. ThePinkDragon
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:04 am | Permalink

    In paylor’s defense, there was a disgustingly vocal minority of what I assume to be straight men (but could have been ladies, who knows) who complained here after this season’s Renly/Loras scene. And nothing really happened other than them kissing and tumbling around!

    Now, that doesn’t mean that all straight dudes are like that, or even many, or even half, but they’re out there.

  206. Alan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    Pleonasm: I didn’t get the same impression that you did from the interview. It’s possible George was on the set, but more likely it was A staff writer and D&D. And given how little prep time he had, it was much more likely the collaboration was more with the stunt and effects team.

    Too often people are to quick to give credit of the finished production to the credited writer (in this case George) but often the credited writer may only be responsible for only a small amount of the finished product.

    I never got the impression Martin was on the set. Marshall mentions emailing back and forth with him quite a bit.

    A lot of directors never talk to the writer in situations like these. I realize George wrote the episode as well as the source material in this case, but I wouldn’t have been shocked Marshall had had no contact with George, only D&D and Cogman (who always seems to be on set).

  207. cuti
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    Meg: DH87: Joe Manganiello

    Yeah he’s the definition of eye candy. Can’t act for shit and too purty to be in anything other than a live-action female romance novel cover.

    so true!!!!!!!

    True Blood is an easy sell, with terrible actors being half naked most of the time.

  208. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon,

    Yeah, I’m not here to defend anyone who gets upset over a gay makeout scene. But that really has nothing to do with what was being discussed. We’re all talking about whether men enjoy female nudity more than women enjoy male nudity and why tv networks cater towards men’s visual pleasure more than women. Paylor trying to make it sound like I think women don’t like male nudity is bizarre, and her presuming that straight men are freaked out about male nudity and we are homophobic and sexist is insulting. If she wants to throw out insults then she should save them for the kind of people like you are describing. As it stands her comment is just bizarre and personally offensive. There was no call for that.

  209. Croccifixio
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    It was pretty surreal. I’d not done anything like that in my films before. But the weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, “You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it.” So I was like, “Okay, well, if you— you’re the boss.”

    i think this kinda confirms that there is a producer in HBO that has only one job and that is to yell “MORE TITS” when they see previews or raw episodes.

  210. Oi!
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    Can’t wait for these scene on GOT http://tindeck.com/listen/vkxz

  211. spike
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    lol sounds like SNL were spot on!

  212. spike
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    also who watches GoT, specifically for the nudity? It’s insulting of the execs to believe that’s how we think

  213. RathHood
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:25 am | Permalink
  214. alex
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    OK… while reading below, keep in mind that 1. I love the books. 2. I am NOT a book purist 3. I really really do love the show

    Here it is: episode Blackwater was NOT as good as it should have been. it lacked epicness … sure it had epic scenes here and there… but it wasn’t epic. and the cavalry charge a the end, well, I was expecting smth closer to the charge of the rohirrim but it just wasn’t that.
    I’m sad to say I can’t give 5* to any episode this season. and to hell wiht he nudity scenes. I would honeslty like to hear Varys talking about his castration than get a couple of minutes of some undressed chick. I don’t care about that nameless girl who just happens to be everyone’s whore. I do care about dialogues that are relevent to the grand scheme of things, and YES I think that Varys telling his short story *pun intented :D * would have added depth, especially for new viewers.

    I really want to know what others think, so don’t be shy to reply

  215. Oi!
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:35 am | Permalink

    Yeah i dont think being open to it equals wanting it… Plus even a cameo money wise would be a big budgetary problem. Not to mention that she would overshadow any character on GOT just because she’s Charlize Theron.

  216. Sijjvra
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    For the several times the topic of fan-fic and writing has been brought up – exactly. There are THOUSANDS upon thousands of websites dedicated to smutty fiction written by women.

    I have yet to see many male-nude magazines at the stores that sell adult magazines. Lots of nude or nearly nude female focused magazines, but very VERY few that depict the male nude. You pretty much have to buy an art book for that. How can we judge a market if the stuff isn’t available to be judged by? Sure, 30 years ago they wouldn’t have sold much, but today, with more women and more gay men being able to be open about their desires and what they find attractive, the shit might actually sell pretty well…. if it was easy to find.

    Plus it’s easy to find porn on the internet for free now anyway. I don’t bother to buy it because it’s everywhere. I think that must ring true for many folks, male and female of all orientations.

    But it’s also pretty clear that some men are just going to keep a shell around their beliefs because the fact that many, many women are just as sexual (if culturally and sexually repressed) as men scares them, bothers them, or boggles them. That is the only thing I can conclude after so many excuses being tossed about, which are refuted at every turn with specific examples (and many women here) backing up the fact that hey, women (and some men, too ) might want to see a bit of cock now and then. That’s all I have to say, really.

  217. Oi!
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    Oh and regarding nudity this season i really enjoyed it, there were some really nice hot scenes with Osha, Mel, Talisa more of that please nudity exec. Also liked the Theon – Salt wife scene, just to reaffirm Theons dickishness to women (which made Yara shooting him down so much better. )
    Really the only scene that was weird to me (because i actually found it funny) was the LF cleaning jizz of off that whore in the brothel scene.

  218. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    Sijjvra,
    I have yet to see many male-nude magazines at the stores that sell adult magazines.

    I have yet to see a sex store that didn’t have male nude magazines. There are less than female nude magazines but that just goes to further the point that men demand these things more than women. It is weird to point to lower supplies catering to females as if that bolsters your point.

    But it’s also pretty clear that some men are just going to keep a shell around their beliefs because the fact that many, many women are just as sexual (if culturally and sexually repressed) as men scares them, bothers them, or boggles them.

    Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they are keeping a shell around their beliefs. They may just think you are wrong as hard as they might be to believe.

    That is the only thing I can conclude after so many excuses being tossed about, which are refuted at every turn with specific examples

    You have refuted anything. Giving anecdotal evidence of individual experiences doesn’t show anything. If you want to refute this theory you’ll have to disprove the many studies that contradict your belief like this.

    http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare

    “Birds do it, bees do it, and men do it any old time. But women will only do it if the candles are scented just right — and their partner has done the dishes first. A stereotype, sure, but is it true? Do men really have stronger sex drives than women? Well, yes, they do. Study after study illustrates that men’s sex drives are not only stronger than women’s, but much more straightforward. The sources of women’s libidos, by contrast, are much more difficult to pin down.”

    You can also look at the links Pyrrus provided above that make the same case from a different angle.

    Again, people aren’t disagreeing with you because they are scared of sexually aggressive women. They are disagreeing with you because study after study disagrees with you. They disagree with you because you have done nothing to disprove any of this. That doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions to the rule, and God bless the women who are, but the rule isn’t that women have higher sex drives than men.

  219. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    Sijjvra,

    From what I can gather from your posts you desperately want to see dicks. I’d suggest you go watch some porn and get all the dick gazing you can handle. If you think it’s the responsibility of the producers to pack the show wall to wall with dicks you are sorely mistaken. Not everything has to cater to your wants and desires.

    You also seem to want people to believe that you are some uber sexual nymphomaniac that has an insatiable lust that cannot be sated…fine. You are much more sexual than any man could ever dream of being. You are a sex god and our puny minds can’t comprehend just how much sex you need. Your sexuality frightens me, truly.

  220. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    Arthur: Ros is a walking, talking doorway to whore scenes that degrade women for, what D&D perceives, to be men’s viewing pleasure. We have Robb’s storyline and soon we will have Jon’s storyline that both include beautiful women. Why can’t they give us those meaningful sex scenes instead of Ros/brothel scenes? All well, maybe they have some co-exe producer standing over their shoulder whispering;

    “More whore scenes please… Go get Ros”.

    The obvious explanation for this is that a lot of proper actresses don’t want to do the full frontals HBO seems to be so obsessed with putting on their shows, in as many episodes as possible.

    So they need to cast Ros and other (former or not) adult film performers, who can give them their quota of full on nudity.

    Whereas, if I were making the decisions, my thinking would go along the lines of, let’s shoot love scenes between characters important to the plot, if they don’t want to do nudity we won’t shoehorn it in.

    I suppose that’s a very ‘female’ sensibility. But when I’m watching a drama I like the emotion in these type of scenes more than the nudity, in many cases. When they can mix the two, as in scenes with Margaery and Renly, that’s probably ideal. And a lot of scenes would call for male nudity as well, which wouldn’t bother me because as I’ve said, I’m an adult and I watch porn. Dicks aren’t scary. But nudity for its own sake is often tiresome when I’m not specifically watching porn.

  221. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Pyrrhus:
    It’s pretty well established that males are more easily aroused by visual stimulus than women. A cursory search of the literature confirms this and a quick google search turns up credible sources like this and this.

    It may offend egalitarian sexual ideals that this is the case, but c’est la vie. Men and women do not play identical roles in the reproductive process. A simplistic evolutionary story fits the pattern well: Men tend to see naked women only when they have an opportunity for sex. If they fail to become aroused, they miss a potential chance to reproduce. If women fail to become aroused by naked men, they just have bad sex.

    Apparently this doesn’t fit experience of some women on this site. In part that’s because there is a distribution of responses and individuals vary around the mean. Some women posting here may be outliers, and that’s ok! It may also reflect the fact that women posting here have underestimated how much more turned on the average man is by visual stimulus.

    Psychology Today is not a peer-reviewed, scholarly source.
    I might take this more seriously if his only source were not a book that has already been criticised for presenting its data in a skewed way.

    I don’t think anyone is underestimating the stimulation of men by visual cues. ;p I think the complaint is that the show is being made with the male gaze in mind, rather than quality of content in those scenes. If those scenes MUST be included, I think most of us are arguing, then there should be scenes just as exploitative of men. If stimulating its audience sexually were the goal of the show, and women were only stimulated by what Seltzer claims they are (hah!), then maybe HBO should be sending out free romance novels with a subscription?
    Even if you believe 100% that the majority of women are not stimulated by visual cues, it doesn’t necessitate that the show should cater to the sexual fantasies of men, rather than solid storytelling a good character.

    pleonasm:
    I’d be curious if the ‘nudity’ in GOT materially effects the ratings for the show. Do people switch channels if the opening warning doesn’t include a reference to nudity?

    After all, this is 2012. If someone wants crass exploitative sex scenes there is this thing called the internet. Its free and not too hard to find.

    Sometimes I wonder if HBO is still thinking this is the 1980′s.

    I am all for nudity in the service of the story or a character arc, but 75% of what we are seeing on GOT is not that.

    THIS!

    The way the camera lingers on the nude female body but largely hides the male form is what makes it come off as tacky rather than realistic. If both partners are naked before or following coitus, the man isn’t going to strategically hide behind vases/the woman’s bum/the woman’s leg/a well-placed banana. If it were a meaningful, honest sex scene (even a disturbing one to do with rape), the focus would not be on the woman, but on both of them. The only camera in real life is the sight of the individual man or woman, and the cameras on this show are choosing to represent the perverted little boy next door, peeping through a hole in the wall.

    Off topic: It would be cool to see Marshall direct again! He seems like a cool guy and it seems like few had problems with the episode.

  222. Tar Kidho
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Well, it’s ‘official’ now, but all of us knew already that there had to be HBO quota’s to fill, right?

    What is more interesting in my opinion is the light this discussion may shed on the human psyche. I haven’t taken part in the re-cap posts this year, but (correct me if I’m wrong) I bet there were more people that were disgusted by seeing a horse beheaded and a wolf killed than there were by seeing people getting beheaded, maimed, raped, etc. And also, it seems to me that more people are easier upset by an explicit sex scene than by a scene of violence. Does this mean that the human brain can accept violence against other people more easily than it can accept violence against animals or seeing other people having sex? I’m not a psychologist, but I will venture a guess and say that it’s all just a matter of what we are used to. You can’t turn on your tv (real-world news or tv series/movies) or open the newspaper or you are confronted by images of violence (even in PG-13 rated films). In contrast, explicit nudity and violence against animals is much less in-your-face in daily life…

    Now, if my wild assumptions are true and it is all just a matter of ‘getting used’ to potentially disturbing images, would it then be beneficial to show less violence against humans in the news and on TV? Or does it make sense to show more nudity and sex on tv so that people eventually feel less affronted by it when it appears in a show like GoT? (I will never propose that we see more violence against animals on-screen, which is weird if you think about it since I personally am also less shocked by one person hurting or killing another…) Who can possibly make the decision what we can and should not see on a day-to-day basis? I would say it is up to every individual to make this decision, however, does this then mean that it would be better if violence on people would be shown less abundantly in our daily life?

    Just some random thoughts flying through my mind when reading this thread – I don’t pretend that my assumptions are correct and definitely don’t have the answers in case they would be…

  223. Sijjvra
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    Sijjvra,

    From what I can gather from your posts you desperately want to see dicks. I’d suggest you go watch some porn and get all the dick gazing you can handle. If you think it’s the responsibility of the producers to pack the show wall to wall with dicks you are sorely mistaken. Not everything has to cater to your wants and desires.

    You also seem to want people to believe that you are some uber sexual nymphomaniac that has an insatiable lust that cannot be sated…fine. You are much more sexual than any man could ever dream of being. You are a sex god and our puny minds can’t comprehend just how much sex you need. Your sexuality frightens me, truly.

    Actually I’m married and have been for 10 years. I’m not a nympho by any means of the word, but I love the male form and -hate- it when men try to dictate and tell women what they want to see and what they don’t want to see. THAT is the EXACT type of shaming that our culture presses on women. And it disgusts me.

    I do NOT find the female form more attractive and I’m -sick- of the excuse that “oh it must be because men and women find the female form more attractive that we see more nude women” or “if women really wanted it there would be a market for it”.

    Well, there are plenty of women here and online that represent a market that is largely being ignored or frowned upon by the media and many men. Not all men, but many men seem to think any woman who wants to see the male form is a nympho or a slut, or is somehow weird and not an “average” woman.

  224. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    I would be interested to know the gender breakdown by percentage among GoT’s viewers.

    If Dan wants to argue that “the market shouldn’t give women what they want (naked guys) since women don’t seem willing to pay for it” I should think the probable forty-something percent of female Game of Thrones viewers, presumably viewing because they PAID for an HBO sub, would be interesting to him.

    But probably he would just argue that their tastes shouldn’t matter regardless. IMO, HBO execs ought to think about what actions they could take to encourage females to view their programs, and how to best retain those females that already watch.

  225. Sijjvra
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    I would be interested to know the gender breakdown among GoT’s viewers.

    If Dan wants to argue that “the market shouldn’t give women what they want (naked guys) since women don’t seem willing to pay for it” I should think the probable forty-something percent of female Game of Thrones viewers,presumably viewing because they PAID for an HBO sub, would be interesting to him.

    But probably he would just argue that their tastes shouldn’t matter regardless.

    Let’s not forget True Blood, which is a show on HBO even more popular than GoT. But yeah, obviously there’s no market for it.

  226. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Tar Kidho: Well, it’s ‘official’ now, but all of us knew already that there had to be HBO quota’s to fill, right?

    One correction: the anecdote Marshall relates indicates that it was an exec producer who demanded female full frontal nudity, not HBO. He/she used the “It’s HBO” as a cop-out for his advocating for the “pervert side of the audience.” HBO is guilty of plenty but not of meddling in the director’s vision of the episode, apparently.

    And, Zack, a poster a couple of weeks ago said the breakdown was 60/40 percent M/F for GOT and 48/52 for TB but without a citation.

  227. purplejilly
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    EDIT – oops – quoted the wrong thing – meant to quote Sue saying Ros hasnt been naked all season.

    And she’s been pretty wrapped up – I wonder if the actress (Esme’) really IS pregnant, and they are disguising it this way, since maybe they couldn’t fit in a Ros pregnancy story (which would have totally made sense, seeing what her career is).

  228. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    HBO is guilty of plenty but not of meddling in the director’s vision of the episode, apparently.

    I wouldn’t call it “meddling”, but it looks like certain amount of nudity is expected in HBO shows. Otherwise, it might be pretty hard to explain why Boardwalk Empire, of all things, needs all the nudity it has. Somehow, no one in the media complains about the nudity in BE …

  229. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky: Somehow, no one in the media complains about the nudity in BE …

    Well, I’m not “in the media” but I think Paz de a Huerta’s relentless nudity in Seasons 1 and 2 got its share of ridicule (wow: a chronic exhibitionist is cast as a chronic exhibitionist!). I disparaged it here recently and was called out on it, as I recall, so one man’s “gratuitous” nudity is another man’s legitimate artistic expression.

  230. Oi!
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    TB is a soap opera on HBO budget, and so like all the soaps, telenovelas… it is more appealing to women because it’s aimed more at women.

  231. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    HouseLark:
    One more thing to consider in the whole sex/nudity debate is that all art is gratuitous, that’s why it’s art. When it stops being gratuitous it becomes functional and nobody would be interested. It’s usually the gratuitous that makes something beautiful. You see this most often in architecture; buildings are just containers for rooms so why not build them as simply and cheaply as possible? All of these buildings are amazing but ultimately gratuitous.

    http://www.lonelyplanet.com/turkey/istanbul/travel-tips-and-articles/76556

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries/9220850/Are-these-the-worlds-most-beautiful-buildings.html?frame=2200797

    Embellishment = the functionally superflous addition of aesthetic elements or the use of more expensive functional components featuring integral aesthetic appeal, both to embed a thing in its cultural context and, to generate goodwill toward it and its creator.

    Gratuitous = appealing to the base instincts of the target audience simply because it’s cheap to do, not because it is necessary to develop a character or relationship nor to advance the plot of a story (or any similiar alterior motive).

    Ergo, a sculpture of a semi-naked goddess on the façade of an 18th century palace is NOT AT ALL the same thing as Littlefinger instructing Ros to play with another whore’s arse.

  232. Tar Kidho
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    DH87: HBO is guilty of plenty but not of meddling in the director’s vision of the episode, apparently.

    I take your point that the executive producer does not equal HBO, even though he/she is probably one step closer to HBO sensu stricto. He or she may or may not have been forwarding the opinion of the big shots at HBO, we don’t know. However, Alex definitely makes a valid point about HBO’s history with nudity. It may not be direct ‘meddling’ (a term I don’t like, it’s too negative – in case that would be HBO policy it’s ok as long as everybody is aware of it in advance), but at the least there is some ‘historical’ pressure…

  233. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    Tar Kidho: I take your point that the executive producer does not equal HBO, even though he/she is probably one step closer to HBO sensu stricto. He or she may or may not have been forwarding the opinion of the big shots at HBO, we don’t know. However, Alex definitely makes a valid point about HBO’s history with nudity. It may not be direct ‘meddling’ (a term I don’t like, it’s too negative – in case that would be HBO policy it’s ok as long as everybody is aware of it in advance), but at the least there is some ‘historical’ pressure…

    All three of the major premium channels can be tarred with the “nudity” brush, for reasons we’ve discussed repeatedly here, including the perceived “value” of content unavailable on basic cable, potential DVD sales, etc.

    I did just read on DeadlineHollywood that sales of Blu ray/DVDs are tanking rapidly (“Spending for DVDs and Blu-ray discs is falling so fast that 2012 likely will be first year when consumers will pay more to buy and rent movies via the Internet.”) HBO had better not count its revenue from that source before it lands in the till.

  234. Wes
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    This argument about women’s sex drives relative to men’s is ridiculous. Women face very different pressures in regards to expressing their sexuality openly (and even privately) than men do. Comparisons about market behavior, openness and straightforwardness are flawed.

  235. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    An offhand comment can be a joke. Two paragraphs of Marshall talking about it…probably not a joke.
    purplejilly,
    I do suspect she’s pregnant, based on the look of her, but she hasn’t said anything in public so I’ve left it alone.

  236. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra: Psychology Today is not a peer-reviewed, scholarly source.I might take this more seriously if his only source were not a book that has already been criticised for presenting its data in a skewed way.

    Here is some peer reviewed literature. I agree with what you are saying otherwise. Just because I have a male response to visual stimulus does not mean that I want the show to pander to that response. But I think that this tendency does mean that the market for the naked female form is always going to be bigger than that for the male form.

    Meg:
    Pyrrhus, your argument makes sense psychologically but the evolutionary explanation is hard to prove

    I’m skeptical because it’s usually made without any evidence concerning similarities between ancestral and current group structures, mating structures, group sizes, or actual behavior. Is this story about “nudity->failure to become aroused=missed opportunity for sex” common across cultures and evolved specifically for human species fitness? Are you prepared to show that these preferences are adaptations in the deep past, and thus the product of natural selection? To show that I think you would need evidence concerning the heritability of this trait in our ancestors, and the genetic advantage it offered. In my (admittedly limited) readings in evopsych, they don’t do that; they merely describe modern-day psychological sex differences and then reverse engineer an evolutionary story to fit that description.

    Well, proof is a pretty high standard. I’m not really trying to prove anything with my (admittedly simplistic) evolutionary story, I’m just offering it up to those who, like me, find such stories plausible, in case it makes the fact of differences easier to understand or accept.

    I imagine you could find studies out there showing that male responses to visual stimuli exist cross-culturally, cross-species (do male rats respond to images of female rats more than vice versa), and perhaps even across time (are there more cavemen drawings of boobs or dongs?). These would all be evidence (not proof) for an innate and thus plausibly evolutionary male tendency toward visual stimulus.

  237. Wes
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,

    The linked data doesn’t indicate nearly as much as you imply it does. There are differences in the way men and women respond to stimuli. Implying more than that is a stretch.

  238. hawk
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    You do know that an “executive producer” would be hardly more than a money guy, not a creative type at all? If he was truly on the set saying stuff like that, which I’m almost certain the conversation wasn’t as told nor as we’re imagining it… Marshall told the story abstractly, probably to get his point across in the quickest possible way…

    I assure you, it wasn’t D or D, it was a moneybags who I’m sure nobody wanted on set in the first place… I’ll say this: I’d much rather have a douche on set encouraging me to push the envelope at HBO than have some douche telling me what I can’t say or show on NBC…

    I do find it odd that so many are discussing the merit of nudity and whether or not it’s useful… If we took everything out that didn’t directly service the story, what would we have left? Why even make the show? Why not just read the screenplay? Or George’s book? Or just George’s idea for the story? His notes?

    DH87,

  239. hawk
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    And another thing that many people aren’t addressing… With Ros for example, people complain about her being useless to the story. She’s exactly the opposite! Ros was created specifically to service the story. Every scene she’s in is painting the more important characters around her. The Littlefinger brothel scene wasn’t a waste gratuitous, it was honest. Would we have rather just heard Littlefinger scheming out loud to himself? How silly would that be?

    I credit David Milch with creating sexposition… The “Blowjob Monologues” as I call them, were fantastic. How else do you get a character to deliver such a Shakespearesque soliloquy in a natural fashion??

  240. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    hawk: You do know that an “executive producer” would be hardly more than a money guy, not a creative type at all?

    As I said down thread, the only two executive producers credited on the show are D&D—it is not a catch-all or a generic term. Everyone else is a “co-executive producer,” and Marshall is a veteran who knows the difference. Plus, I stand by my assertion that only D or D would say I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene. Who else is saying that to the director of the episode? A ‘money guy’? Please.

  241. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Nicole,

    Be my guest. I dont mind male nudity.

  242. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    hawk: If we took everything out that didn’t directly service the story, what would we have left?

    Perhaps a tightly composed, well-paced, logical, and compelling visual experience? Or are all the films made under the old Motion Picture Production Code failures since they didn’t include vulgar language, simulated sex acts, or ffn?

  243. negar
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    HUM , not cool.
    nude scenes are essential most of the time in this series.but to tell someone I urge you to go full frontal … .I like it when sex just happens.when the story needs it.but this?!
    not cool.
    I hope they’ll bring Marshall back .he’s a brilliant director and he’s honest!

  244. tlsmith63
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    A_S00,

    You have made the exact points I would have made. Sometimes it seems like the sex is there for no good reason. The show is well-written. It really doesn’t need it.

  245. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    I think with the creation of Ros scenes from season 1 most of us were already suspecting her whole characters existence as being for the purpose of nudity.

    This is the reason many of us dislike her character. So it isn’t much of a surprise to have these suspicions confirmed by Neil.

    Ros = A portal to brothel/whore scenes that are needed to satisfy the perversion of one or more co-executives. She will be here until the series ends so I guess we will just have to get used to it. Sucks, but the other 98% of the show is awesome…

  246. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Nikolaj has a no nude clause that wimp.

  247. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Not trying to be an ass but if you ladies want to see full male frontal nudity in all it’s glory just watch Spartacus. That show has muscle bound hunks walking naked with their male parts swaying side to side in every episode…

  248. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    At least last year Khal Drogo showed you his bare bottom… Apparently he was the only male actor on GoTs that had some balls…

    How I miss that guy…..

  249. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I’m not disparaging women by saying they have more control when it comes to sex and are less depraved. That is a compliment.

    no it is not.

  250. alex
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    what have you people turned this topic into? …

  251. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    You assumme that the market always knows what people want, when really they dont. How often did something nowbody thought would sell into a bif thing.

    another one:

    This generation of people age 60+ is the richest in history, but still entertaiment markets and whatnot ingnore them, when there is so much money to be made with these demographic.

  252. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Think of all the female characters that showed skin…

    1) Ros and other whores
    2) Daenarys
    3) Margaery
    4) Osha
    5) Melisandre
    6) Talisia

    How many guys?

    1) Khal Drogo
    2) Theon Greyjoy
    3) Hodor (Though many have said his “Hodor” was fake)

    Wow, the more I think about it the more I can see why the female fanbase feels left out. I would be pissed too.

    I guess the female fanbase desire can be summed up with one sentence that a previous poster so elliquently put;

    “JUST SHOW ME THE COCK PLEASE”

    I hope D&D hears you and delivers the cock in season 3, seriously…

  253. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Arthur: That show has muscle bound hunks walking naked with their male parts swaying side to side in every episode…

    Arthur,
    You are not being an ass; indeed, you rate quite high on the gallantry scale, as far as I’m concerned, since we seem to agree on many aspects of this issue. :) However, I must point out that the late Andy Whitfield had a no-frontal-nudity clause in his contract for Spartacus, which was negotiated as part of his agreement for the starring role.

    See a pattern here? The first three billed leads, Dinklage, Headey, and NCW (in that order), of GOT all have no-nudity clauses; Whitfield had one, and they all want to be sure everyone knows it. New actors with limited negotiating strength have to accept it or pass on the part; leads and stars make it a point not to give away the goods.

    Just another indication of how powerful nudity remains in the culture, for men and women both.

    Edt: Did you purposely leave Hodor off your list?

  254. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    I know he does. I bet Iain Glen does too. That won’t keep me from making futile demands.

  255. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    LOL. so true. poor poor alfie always the little brother nobody cares about.

  256. Oi!
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Doreah’s boobies were also on display (Gods be praised) during last season. ;)

  257. Hi-Fi
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Some really appaling, sexist comments here. Oh well.

    It’s ridiculous. I had to cheer for a Gendry shirtless scene (it was yummy, for sure) because that’s all they gave me this season.

    I LOLed when Talisa got completely naked in her sex scene and Robb just opened his shirt.

    Sad face.

  258. pleonasm
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    hawk:
    And another thing that many people aren’t addressing… With Ros for example, people complain about her being useless to the story. She’s exactly the opposite! Ros was created specifically to service the story. Every scene she’s in is painting the more important characters around her. The Littlefinger brothel scene wasn’t a waste gratuitous, it was honest. Would we have rather just heard Littlefinger scheming out loud to himself? How silly would that be?

    I credit David Milch with creating sexposition… The “Blowjob Monologues” as I call them, were fantastic. How else do you get a character to deliver such a Shakespearesquesoliloquy in a natural fashion??

    The Littlefinger scene was honest? Seriously? A High Lord is going to reveal his motivations and background to two prostitutes, one of whom he barely knows, while he ‘trains’ them (and that is just ludricious in and of itself) on how to fuck correctly?

    I think its possible to defend some of the sexposition scenes in this series, but that one is undefensible. Its crass, exploitative, and demeaning to both the participants and the audience.

    Yes, the equal opportunity nudity would be nice, but you know what would be better, nudity used to actually service the story and characters rather than the juvenile soft core porn we have been exposed to to-date.

  259. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Oi!,

    Right! Well with the saltwife and other random female actors shown nude the balance of nude females vs nude males is way off, tilted to one side.

    D&D need to balance this off in season 3 by showing more male nude shots. I am told that a lot of the GoTs hunks have a contract that doesn’t allow them full frontal. That doesn’t mean we can’t see their buns and/or get a frontal with a sub in their place…

  260. cuti
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    DH87: See a pattern here? The first three billed leads, Dinklage, Headey, and NCW (in that order), of GOT all have no-nudity clauses

    your source is? A LINK please.

    Michael Tschuertz: poor poor alfie always the little brother nobody cares about.

    This.

  261. OtherJon
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    I think with the creation of Ros scenes from season 1 most of us were already suspecting her whole characters existence as being for the purpose of nudity.

    This is the reason many of us dislike her character.So it isn’t much of a surprise to have these suspicions confirmed by Neil.

    Ros = A portal to brothel/whore scenes that are needed to satisfy the perversion of one or more co-executives.She will be here until the series ends so I guess we will just have to get used to it.Sucks, but the other 98% of the show is awesome…

    Can’t say I really minded the Ros scenes. Thought she was just a time/money saver. Wall for Littlefinger to rant at so people had some idea what he was about. Way for them not to introduce Chataya and go through another racial discussion when Cersei gets a hold of her. Explore that scene in the book where Tyrion is thinking about sending Joffery a whore. Wouldn’t be surprised if she took a cart to Harrenhal in the finale so she could take Pia(Mia?)’s place.

  262. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Pyrrhus: in case it makes the fact of differences easier to understand or accept.

    since the explanations are conjecture used as a kind of comforting “religion” to explain the meaning sex differences, it’s more difficult for me to accept.

    Okay I think…I may be ready to talk about the rest of the interview!! Curious what ppl think of the decision to have Stannis leading from the front. I have to say I loved it, even if it wasn’t tactically smart. Courage > sense!

  263. Arthur
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Stannis leading made sense to me. After all, Mel has convinced him he is the “chosen one” of prophesy. So why would he fear arrows and swords. Plus, say what you want about Stannis but that guy is a true king that isn’t scared to lead his men into battle. Just like Robb, Robert, Tywin and Drogo and unlike pathetic Jeff…

  264. Lucazzy
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter,

    It’s that 13 year old.

  265. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    cuti: your source is? A LINK please.

    NCW: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/67697930.html?page=2

    for Dinklage: “a no front junk nudity clause” implied at http://http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/peter-dinklage?before=1332855466

    for Headey, right here, WIC, March 15: “Lena Headey has a no-nudity clause in her contract.” Also http://asoiaf.westeros.org › … › General (GoT)
    “Lena Headey has a no-nudity clause so that whole arc won’t have nearly as. . . .”

  266. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Dan: I have yet to see a sex store that didn’t have male nude magazines. There are less than female nude magazines but that just goes to further the point that men demand these things more than women. It is weird to point to lower supplies catering to females as if that bolsters your point.

    Back in college I worked a couple years at a liquor store that had a wide collection of porno mags. All were focused on women with the exception of Playgirl. And the only people who ever bought Playgirl were gay men. Anecdotal, yes, but it stuck with me.

  267. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Meg: Curious what ppl think of the decision to have Stannis leading from the front.

    “You can’t lead from behind.” Confederate General James Longstreet, when asked by RE Lee not to expose himself to enemy fire at Gettysburg.

  268. Drfunk
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Wow one comment in a tongue and cheek manner ignited the ADAMFRIEDBERG GATE. Is it even remotely possible that Neil was just having fun and grossly exaggerating that story? Some of you believe that Neil got told he’d be fired if he didn’t show her body on screen. Anyways in regards to this whole men vs women sexuality topic. I’m no women but I believe anyone can be imaginative with their sexual needs (call it depraved for some of you). It’s got nothing to do with gender, you’re not born a perv for being a guy or a girl but mostly from your values and how you were raised up along with your personality. So let’s drop this men have a filthier mind than women argument crap.

    The thing that I’ve noticed over in N America is generation of women have been raised to hide those needs. It mostly derives from the the outdated religious beliefs that men > women so it’s ok for men to do w/e they want but a women have to behave “properly”. Seriously, some christian sects even goes so far as to push polygamy (as long as it’s the guy getting more women) while some muslim sects consider women one step above an animal.

    It’s sad that no matter how depraved men can be, we accept them as “being just a guy” while a women would be “insert derogatory term”for even thinking about sex. So yeah, let’s assume we take Neil’s words at face value. There’s probably some sick number crunching behind the idea of showing more female nudity. Marketing is not a random science. If HBO truly believed more male nudity would help their bottom line they would do so, fact is they won’t and it’s because it’s still not socially accepted to see women behave like a typical episode of GIRLS.

    So aside from the reason why HBO may have done so, I’m also against random nudity scenes for the sake of trying to go tit for tat with a fanboy show like Spartacus. Just be glad we haven’t degenerated to that level yet. Using nudity is ok as long as it makes Westeros more realistic. Tyrion intro with the brothel girls is a good example of that. I wasn’t angry at the two women getting on in the LF scene. I was angry that they made LF into a master of brothels rather than coins. Seriously, why does Varys get all the cool lines and look awesome while LF seems like a little weasel on the show. THAT’S the criminal part of that scene. Who the @#(*#$## cares there was random girls banging in the background? Have you all seen Spartacus where every 5min someone either gets decapitated or you see softcore porn.

    So let’s stop with this nudity non sense and gripe about real issues that makes the show lesser than it should be.

  269. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Do you know whether an actor who has signed a no nudity clause can still volunteer to do a nude scene? Or would it be a breach of contract? I.E: Cersei’s walk in ADWD. That to me was one of best passages that Martin had ever written for Cersei and for any character. With how great Lena has been this season it would be a shame that she could not give that particular scene the full service when it comes about. And understand it’s not about me wanting to see LH in the buff (okay partial lie) it’s about wanting what’s best for the series both artistically and thematically. And I think having the actress completely nude in the scene would play off much better if they used a body double with carefully angled shots or worse CGI nudity (re: Leslie Mann in the Change Up which was ridiculous and even more demeaning to the actress IMHO as opposed to her having displayed her own body in the scene). It would make an already harrowing scene even more powerful in my opinion.

  270. cuti
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    DH87: NCW: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/67697930.html?page=2

    for Dinklage: “a no front junk nudity clause” implied at http://http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/peter-dinklage?before=1332855466

    for Headey, right here, WIC, March 15: “Lena Headey has a no-nudity clause in her contract.” Also http://asoiaf.westeros.org › … › General (GoT)
    “Lena Headey has a no-nudity clause so that whole arc won’t have nearly as. . .

    The last two links do not work. And about NCW, looks like he is being funny. It is not a confirmation.

  271. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    If Dan wants to argue that “the market shouldn’t give women what they want (naked guys) since women don’t seem willing to pay for it” I should think the probable forty-something percent of female Game of Thrones viewers, presumably viewing because they PAID for an HBO sub, would be interesting to him.

    Do you know what quote marks signify? I never said what you quoted me as saying. When I’ve brought up the market it has been in the context of why men are more heavily catered to when it comes to nudity than women. That doesn’t imply that there is no market for women or that I think there should be no market for women. It just means that is less than the market for men. The reason, I believe, is because men are out there paying for visual pleasure in much higher numbers. I’m just trying to explain why the ratio to male and female nudity is not even. If you want to try to make that out as I’m homophobic or sexist or any of the other dumb things that have been implied then I don’t know what to tell you. Sorry, sometimes people disagree with you. It might just be because they don’t think the facts support your case and not because they are some buzz word people like to use to stifle discussions.

  272. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    Hold on, so do you think it is an insult to say that someone has more control over their sexual desires and is less depraved? Do you know what the word depraved means?

  273. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    IRT: True Blood

    Kristin Bauer (Pam)has fake breasts: re: Dancing at the Iguana.

    Just sayin.’

  274. ThePinkDragon
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    cuti,

    Well, I don’t know, I think if Cersei and Jaime could have been naked in 1×01′s twincest scene, they would have been. But they weren’t. That’s not really confirmation in and of itself, but it’s evidence.

    As for Pete Dink, in all his scenes he also had his manbits strategically covered, which, again, is not confirmation but evidence.

    Overall, if GoT wanted to go there, GoT would go there.

  275. cuti
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    ThePinkDragon: Well, I don’t know, I think if Cersei and Jaime could have been naked in 1×01′s twincest scene, they would have been. But they weren’t. That’s not really confirmation in and of itself, but it’s evidence.

    Lena was pregnant and they had to shoot that scene trying to ” hide” the pregnancy.

  276. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    I really don’t believe Marshall’s comment that HBO has no say in the nudity utilized in the series. HBO prides itself being an independent creative ‘make a bear factory ‘ for television so to actually go out and admit that as a part of maintaining the bottom line there is a nudity quota would obviously sully that image. Such that it is.

    I do agree though that David and Dan need to address this issue in some fashion. I can’t see them on the side lines saying “boobies! ass!” to the writers, there must be a corporate agenda in there. But if that’s the case maybe we can petition Amanda Peet to nag him into rectifying this issue? Is Amanda on Twitter?

    Regarding HBO’s past series, I think GoT is the only tone o come under such fire for it’s portrayal of sex/nudity. Rome never got that much ire, nor Deadwood. But GoT mismanages this nudity quota unlike those other shows. I think the fact that GoT is from such revered source material and has appeal to a large group of people who did not watch Rome or Deadwood and therefore were not desensitized to the sex/nudity on those shows, is a reason, among many, that is has become the subject of scrutiny.

    And just to clear up what I mentioned on an earlier thread that seemed to have had a negative reaction is that I don’t think all the demographics that watch Game of Thrones have not seen other HBO series, or are not intellectual etc etc. I was merely saying that the fantasy elements draws from other demographics who may not be open to an adult portrayal of a fantasy world whether or not the nudity is handled well in the series.

  277. LionOfLannister
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Like it or not, there is a section of the audience that tunes in to see nudity and violence. Someone has to make sure they are catered to. Fortunately nudity and violence is in abundance in the source material. What exactly is the problem here?

  278. tysnow
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    I really do hope that Lena and NCW will go ahead and shoot the Baelor Sept scene nude, even with the contract (maybe ask for a little more $$). That scene wouldn’t have the impact unless they rip each others cloths off.

  279. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Yeah that doesn’t surprise me at all. I would actually be curious if there is much or any difference between level of desire for sex between gay men and straight men. I would be surprised if there is but I am curious nonetheless.

    I’m actually surprised there has been this much disagreement over this. No, I take that back. I’m surprised how angry some of the people disagreeing are getting. I’ll never understand why some people feel the need to distort the opinion of another or just down right insult them simply because they disagree with them.

  280. tysnow
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    D&D need to contract Marshall to direct two or three episodes for the next season, he was that masterful with his Direction of “Blackwater”.

  281. K
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    To all of you who think “middle aged sex” is soooo unappealing how about this: the writers insert a scene where Davos gets to see his wife again. His wife could be played in a cameo by Helen Mirren. Helen Mirren and Liam Cunningham – THAT would be hot, not at all like hearing your parents going at it.

    And the greatest part of the nudity in the Cat/Ned scene has nothing to do with the sex – it is all about Ned’s horror at Cat’s jumping out of bed naked in front of Luwin and Cat’s reaction to Ned that he should get over it because Luwin was there when she gave birth to all five of their kids – that is a priceless exchange that is a great window into their relationship.

  282. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Final thoughts on Neil Marshall’s anecdote about the “perv” exec:

    GRRM is a co-executive producer. He wrote the Blackwater episode and I seriously doubt anyone would dare piss him off. From what I’ve read on WiC.net, the almost-brawl at the tavern was a new scene. Also, GRRM’s books reportedly contain a whole lot more and much more depraved sex scenes.

    So, is it at all conceivable that it might have been GRRM who referred to himself in jest as representing the “perv” fraction of the audience, seeing as D&D had pretty much purged nudity out of the second half of season 2?

  283. wetwork
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Makes you wonder who Maester Luwin’s doing Yeah that would be hot. Davos takes his wife in the servants kitchen. ,

  284. Hi-Fi
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Steven Swanson,

    Yeah that doesn’t surprise me at all. I would actually be curious if there is much or any difference between level of desire for sex between gay men and straight men. I would be surprised if there is but I am curious nonetheless.

    There isn’t much difference, really. So why I am not being catered by HBO with some male nudity? ; )

    That said, I gotta say the Renly/Loras scene this season was more sensual and felt more real than any of the Laffayete/Jesus scenes in True Blood in my opinion, even though the two actors in that show were great. So kudos to D&D for not shying away from the “gayness”.

  285. Remaal
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    I really do hope that Lena and NCW will go ahead and shoot the Baelor Sept scene nude, even with the contract (maybe ask for a little more $$). That scene wouldn’t have the impact unless they rip each others cloths off.

    That’s one scene I’d rather not see in the show. It was a thoroughly sickening read – their dead son’s corpse right there – that I would prefer not relive on TV.

    I want them to give me NCW nekkid in Jaime’s bath scene with Brienne. Now that’s a scene I absolutely love. I really hope they keep it the show, and we get to see it next season.

  286. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    I doubt it was GRRM, not because he has a problem with gratuitous nudity, but because he probably wasn’t on set to pull anyone aside.

  287. Hi-Fi
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Remaal,

    I’d like to see Cersei completely naked in her walk of shame scene in King’s Landing. That was one of the few good moments from the last books.

  288. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Hi-Fi,

    I wonder how big the gay male tv viewer demographic is. I would imagine that if gay men equaled or outnumbered straight men then we’d being seeing a lot more male nudity on tv. Then I’d have to argue with the straight men about why they aren’t getting a bigger boob ratio on their tv screen.

  289. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Do you know what quote marks signify? I never said what you quoted me as saying. When I’ve brought up the market it has been in the context of why men are more heavily catered to when it comes to nudity than women. That doesn’t imply that there is no market for women or that I think there should be no market for women. It just means that is less than the market for men. The reason, I believe, is because men are out there paying for visual pleasure in much higher numbers. I’m just trying to explain why the ratio to male and female nudity is not even

    What you don’t seem to be getting is that most of your argument is entirely irrelevant to this situation. The market as a whole isn’t the issue, because that’s too big for any single forum to be able to alter. The issue is HBO’s Game of Thrones specifically. And if 40% of the show’s (paying, they’re paying for the show–are you understanding?) viewers are female–to which, I believe, we can add gay men, why is the ratio of female to male nudity on the show something like 9:1, (if not more) rather than at least something like 4:1 or thereabouts? It doesn’t have to be equal. But the proportions are just ridiculous. How is this not clear to you as something that can easily be addressed?

  290. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    You assume that woman are different in that, when really they are not. because they are ohh so innocent and pure and weak and would never have deraved thoughts as those evil dirt men have. ;-)

    p.s.:funny fact, up until the 19th century(i believe). it was the other way around. Women were the depraved once who could control their sex drives and it was up the rightous, stoic and logicial man to tamed.

  291. hawk
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Actually, Executive Producer is an extremely ambiguous title. Do some research… I work in the industry. The term is thrown around rather loosely, and also given to people in return for favors, i.e. You need an extremely rare car for your film but you don’t have the money to build or buy one. Someone in the city you’re shooting owns the exact car you need, so you offer him an EP credit in exchange for using his car in the film.

    Point is, he could have been referring to nearly ANYONE and was almost certainly NOT referring to D and D. He wouldn’t have called them one of the “executive producers” because that’s not the spoken word used for people like D and D… they would have been labeled by Marshall as one of the writers, or showrunners, or creators…

  292. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    It’s funny that women come into classically male spaces and demand that changes be made to suit them and their sensibilities. Where were all the men demanding that Sex and the City change to appeal more to men? Or Desperate Housewives? Or any of the legion of other shows that are designed to appeal to women? These men don’t exist. You know why? Because these shows shouldn’t have to change to appeal to them. If all of this bothers you so much stop watching the show, don’t start demanding that it change.

  293. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Meg: since the explanations are conjecture used as a kind of comforting “religion” to explain the meaning sex differences, it’s more difficult for me to accept.

    I think you may misunderstand the appeal of evolutionary reasoning. There’s nothing inherently comforting about evolutionary explanations, they just provide us a plausible explanation for how things might be, that fits with our best understanding of the way things in fact work. Evolution is our best explanation for the existence of life in all of its different and changing forms, most consistent with the evidence available to us. There are significant differences between this and what is generally thought of as religion.

    Sure every theory offers the comfort of potential understanding, and any given evolutionary explanation might be incorrect, incomplete, or superfluous. That’s hardly any reason not to consider plausible explanations for why things work the way they do.

  294. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Meg:

    Okay I think…I may be ready to talk about the rest of the interview!! Curious what ppl think of the decision to have Stannis leading from the front. I have to say I loved it, even if it wasn’t tactically smart. Courage > sense!

    Part of that decision was surely that after the floating wildfire bomb (FWB), Stannis was the only person left on the Baratheon side that the audience had ever seen before. Had he remained in the rear, the battle as a whole would have been more cerebral and much less of an adrenaline rush.

    There is, however, a good military reason for his snap decision to lead the vanguard. Medieval battles were about fighting for a leader, almost always an aristocrat. At the same time, battlefield communications were slow, the poor bloody infantry relied on standard-bearers to know which way they were supposed to go. In the absence of clear leadership, troop morale could go south in a matter of minutes, prompting soldiers to retreat from hard-won territory, run for their lives, surrender or even switch sides (cp. Renly’s bannermen). Stannis’ marines were as shocked and awed by the FWB as we viewers were. So, presumably, was his much larger army on shore. Troop morale took an instant hit and only his courageous leadership could restore it before the assault unraveled (note how Tyrion ended up having to do much the same for his own troops later in the episode).

    Stannis is a naval commander by trade, so he held his newly acquired land army in reserve. He knew beforehand that he might well have to make his way onto dry land at some point during the battle. However, that is precisely why it was frankly silly of Marshall not to give him both a helmet and a distinctive shield, at least for the beach landing. Marshall was thinking cinematography (must show the face!) instead of intelligent military tactics, which would have been more consistent with Stannis’ character.

    Also silly was that Stannis was the first to climb the ladder. Any competent military leader would have prepared a robust plan for harassing the defenders on the parapet before even attempting to storm it. Normally, the land army would have siege engines such as movable towers with archer’s nests for bow and crossbow marksmen. Indeed, trebuchets would have concentrated a sustained barrage at a strategic section of city wall well before the marines ever made it onto the beach.

    There also ought to have been multiple ladders as well as soldiers assigned to try and hold them in place (the most obious defense is to push the top of the ladder away from the wall before any attacker got there). After the bravery Stannis had shown during the beach assault, morale would not have been an issue and his officers would have done their duty. Thus, Stannis ought to have been perhaps the 10th (or the 100th) man up the ladder, but definitely not the first.

    None of this happened because Marshall wanted Stannis to be a swashbuckling hero. Indeed, he decided not to have Stannis’ land army soften up the defenses for the marines at all, just so he work in Tyrion’s “oh fuck me” surprise later on. All told, he made Stannis look like a military rube more on par with Tyrion rather than Tywin.

  295. WildSeed
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,

    Well struck!

  296. Sijjvra
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    It’s funny that women come into classically male spaces and demand that changes be made to suit them and their sensibilities. Where were all the men demanding that Sex and the City change to appeal more to men? Or Desperate Housewives? Or any of the legion of other shows that are designed to appeal to women? These men don’t exist. You know why? Because these shows shouldn’t have to change to appeal to them. If all of this bothers you so much stop watching the show, don’t start demanding that it change.

    Except this ISN’T a male dominated show, almost half the viewers are female! Besides that, not every male that watches this show is necessarily into the female form. It was NEVER meant to cater to specifically men or women like Sex in the City was, it was meant to appeal to fans of fantasy shows. So stop with the swinging dick “shut up and be happy about it or get back into the kitchen” attitude, because you’re very wrong about this point.

  297. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    First, I see you didn’t feel the need to acknowledge or apologize for how you completely distorted my view and used quotation marks to attribute something to me that I never said. Class act.

    Second, women make up the largest demographic of tv viewers. So if this was just about rationing the nudity based on percentages of male vs. female viewership then we would see way more male nudity on tv. So again the central question is why don’t we? If you want my reasoning then you can read what I’ve written previously. But just throwing percentages of viewers at me doesn’t explain anything. Your argument only makes sense if all women viewers are equally drawn to shows with male nudity as male viewers are to shows with female nudity. Since this is the very thing we are discussing you can’t just assume your conclusion and think you have furthered the debate.

    Lastly, I haven’t been trying to address this “problem” of a lack of male nudity. I fully understand that if you have more male nudity then the people calling for more male nudity will be happier. Whether that would help, hurt, or not change a thing for the show is a separate matter. I have simply acknowledged that men’s visual pleasures are more catered to than women’s visual pleasure, and I have given my reasons for why I believe this is the case. If you really want to discuss this then I’m more than willing to listen to what you have to say. I might not agree but I’m always open to being convinced I’m wrong. But if you want to continue with patronizing comments or comments that distort my actual position then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

  298. Remaal
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Hi-Fi,

    That was an extremely painful scene to read for me. I’m not sure I want to see it. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Lena, like NCW & Dinklage, has a no nudity clause in her contract. Even if she doesn’t, I doubt that scene would be a pleasant experience for her to go through.

  299. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Michael Tschuertz,

    You assume that woman are different in that, when really they are not. because they are ohh so innocent and pure and weak and would never have deraved thoughts as those evil dirt men have. ;-)

    How about you actually answer the question I asked you instead of going on a tangent that has nothing to do with anything I’ve written? I’ve never said women are innocent, pure, weak, or would never have depraved thoughts. I never called men evil. I see no reason to address anything else from you when you are content on just making shit up. Best of luck to you buddy.

  300. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,

    I’m including you in the group of people that comment here who I would probably enjoy drinking a beer with. I like the way you handle yourself on here.

  301. sedeyus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Remaal: Hi-Fi,
    That was an extremely painful scene to read for me. I’m not sure I want to see it. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Lena, like NCW & Dinklage, has a no nudity clause in her contract. Even if she doesn’t, I doubt that scene would be a pleasant experience for her to go through.

    I would think that would be a scene an actress would dream about just because it is so affecting. I think it might have been the best scene to come out of ADWD, I would hope Lena Headly would make an exception for that one.

  302. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Too bad D&D couldn’t afford to build one of these for Blackwater for Marshall to play with:

    The Medieval Trebuchet (excerpt from a PBS NOVA documentary)

  303. Ser Pounce
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    I think you’re misunderstanding the criticism. It’s not the nudity itself that’s bad. It’s wasting limited screen time on porn scenes when a lot of important material is being cut

  304. Kevin
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Don’t the people that want more full frontal male nudity realize that all of the frontal female nudity is just showing tits and pubic hair? I could be wrong, but I think more penises have been seen than vaginas in the show.

    It seems weird discussing this lol.

  305. Remaal
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    A scene that uses a woman’s nakedness as punishment to shame, humiliate, and break her? Somehow I doubt Lena would relish that experience, but I could be wrong.

  306. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Remaal,

    My reaction was Cersei was far from broken after that scene. To me she was revitalized. She is going to be the big bad in the last two books. You can bet on that.

  307. wetwork
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    Dude, This not about women, this is about bad writing. Nudity like violence should advance the story or reveal something about your characters. But i guess you only what the show for boobs and beheadings.

  308. sedeyus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Remaal:
    sedeyus,
    A scene that uses a woman’s public nakedness to shame, humiliate and break her? Somehow I doubt Lena would relish that experience, but I could be wrong.

    Remaal,
    I’ve been in the same arguments about Mad Men, just because a show (or a book in this case) shows sexist actions doesn’t make the show sexist itself. It’s trying to show the environment that the female characters grow and live in. I’ve never understood more how difficult the struggle is for Westeros’ women to survive in such a male-dominated society. There’s a reason it was the most sympathic Cersei moment we’ve gotten since the start of the books.

    And the obvious answer to your question? It doesn’t break her. Kevan didn’t believe Cersei had really changed and I don’t either. She’ll be causing just as much trouble in the last two books and while I’m not going to be rooting for her, I’ll have a better understanding of her actions because of her walk into ADWD.

  309. Silverjaime
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I agree – but I think it’s been obvious that the requisite number of T&A scenes have been shoehorned into most episodes, exposition or not. It’s interesting to hear how blatantly it’s been done. Nudity doesn’t bother me, but some of the scenes have been completely gratuitous and taken time away from the real story – as we now know, this has been done deliberately and IMO quite cynically.

  310. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I’m not trying to refute your point that men pay for porn more often than women. This is true. But that’s got nothing to do with why female nudity is more prevalent than male in non-porn media. In fact it’s rather insulting to insinuate that on the basis of their porn-buying habits, males are asking for meaningless nudity in their television dramas in order to be interested, just as it is insulting to women to say that merely because they don’t often pay for porn, that’s an indication of a lower libido or a lack of appreciation for the male body and hence, male nudity is not worth putting in television programming. It shows a lack of consideration of different factors, something you should have learned by now, in this thread. Plenty of ladies have expressed the same thing.

    The market realities can be what they are, but it doesn’t excuse television executives not thinking outside the box, and being sexist. If it’s obvious to me that females, while not directly paying for porn, still like to ogle hot guys, it should be obvious to everyone else. And Game of Thrones =/= porn. I’m not paying for Game of Thrones for the nudity, ok? But a bit, here and there, in service to the story, is a good thing. I imagine most women feel the same, so why should their experience be limited to what men want to see? It just does not compute.

    Summary:

    Just because men often pay to see breasts in the context of porn doesn’t mean we want to see them at the expense of a good story, and just because women aren’t shelling out big bucks for porn doesn’t mean they don’t want to see a bit of eye-candy in programs they do pay for and watch.

    I apologize to everyone for my inability to be succinct. This has all been said before by folks many times more eloquent than myself.

  311. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    hawk: Point is, he could have been referring to nearly ANYONE and was almost certainly NOT referring to D and D.

    As someone in the industry, you probably know that if random rare-car suppliers are telling their director “I want full frontal nudity in this scene,” and that director is saying “Okay, you’re the boss,” D&D have bigger problems than the amount of female nudity in their show.

    cuti: The last two links do not work. And about NCW, looks like he is being funny. It is not a confirmation.

    Feel free to google each actor’s name and “nudity clause GOT” on your own then. That’s what I did.

    Joshua Taylor: Do you know whether an actor who has signed a no nudity clause can still volunteer to do a nude scene?

    I’ve never heard of it: actors have agents who negotiate these these things and “volunteering” is something you do in the Army, not in the movie industry. I’ve heard of folks insisting on doing their own stunts on a film, requiring agreement of the insurance underwriters, but if there were to be any “volunteering,” on the part of Headey, it would involve additional dollar$.

  312. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Silverjaime: as we now know, this has been done deliberately and IMO quite cynically.

    This.

  313. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Stannis was not a swashbuckling hero. He is not exactly Errol Flynn swinging from a chandelier or a tapestry fighting mustacihoed antagonists. He is a man who gets things done. He is also believes that a higher power will protect him so that he may achieve his goal. Placing Stannis in the vanguard and as the first onto the battlements was a brilliant move. And was it Marshall or Martin that wrote that detail? The act alone tells the viewer everything about Stannis that they need to know and it cements his’ badassness’. In the novel Stannis gave orders from his ship on the other side of the river. This would work in the series had they the budget for the chain, the trebuchets of wildfire, the bridge of broken ships etc but since that could not be, they decided to make the battle more urgent, more personal, more to get the audience emotionally invested in the fray. On the show having Stannis as a “swashbuckler” as you say brings to the forefront the relentlessness of his character without having to have several other scenes that would eventually build up to this.

    As for these actions making him a military rube, we can assume when Stannis won Storm’s End and crushed the Greyjoy fleet this was prior to him falling under Melisandre’s thrall/Robert’s death. His risky charging into the fray are the actions of a fanatic not of a fool.

    Not to mention that the newbie reaction to Stannis have been quite positive, especially in light of his actions of this episode.

  314. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    That’s Hollywood for you. It’s not going to change because some fans of a fantasy series feel that their requisite nude scenes are sullying their show. Unless all the ASOIAF purists organized a mass boycott or something. Which cynically speaking, would not happen.

  315. sedeyus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    DH87,

    That’s Hollywood for you. It’s not going to change because some fans of a fantasy series feel that their requisite nude scenes are sullying their show. Unless all the ASOIAF purists organized a mass boycott or something. Which cynically speaking, would not happen.

    True, but a lot of fans bitched about it last season and the sexposition scenes have been cut down a large amount. Not impossible that more bitching can lead to some more pressure on the writers.

  316. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    That or we were simply lucky that Esme Bianco became pregnant.

    Again I say if this wasn’t based on a beloved series, people would a) not care as they did with Deadwood and Rome or b) not watch it all , as they did with Deadwood and Rome. The fact is both shows while popular, never became as big as phenomenon as GoT.

  317. pleonasm
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    It’s funny that women come into classically male spaces and demand that changes be made to suit them and their sensibilities. Where were all the men demanding that Sex and the City change to appeal more to men? Or Desperate Housewives? Or any of the legion of other shows that are designed to appeal to women? These men don’t exist. You know why? Because these shows shouldn’t have to change to appeal to them. If all of this bothers you so much stop watching the show, don’t start demanding that it change.

    Wow – That may be the most inane sexist diatribe I’ve seen in a long time. “Women in our spaces” – Really? Is this 1965?

  318. Remaal
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    sedeyus,

    The intention that lies behind decreeing this particular punishment was to shame, humiliate and break Cersie the queen and the woman. I don’t know if it succeeded or not, none of us do… yet. But I would find it completely implausible for her not to suffer some negative effects from the experience.

    Either way, it is not a scene I look forward to seeing enacted in the show.

  319. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor: t’s not going to change because some fans of a fantasy series feel that their requisite nude scenes are sullying their show.

    Agreed. But it should at least put an end to the kinds of discussions we’ve been having here all season, e.g. “Why are there so many Ros scenes in this show?” and “Why can’t D&D make longer episodes since there’s so much more story to tell?” and “Why were former adult film/burlesque performers hired for this show?” and “Why don’t more women viewers watch GOT?” and …… and as I said at the outset, it has severed my connection to the show as a good-faith attempt at re-envisioning GRRM’s world. No big deal.

  320. Silverjaime
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Sijjvra: Do you know that gay porn is actually pretty popular amongst women, especially younger and more sexually open women?

    Actually most gay porn (or Slash) online is written by and for straight women. But I’m grateful to people like Dan for telling me how I feel about naked men, and to others as to how I must be a prude for thinking some sex scenes are gratuitous. At least I’m glad to know now that my thoughts were correct and they are gratuitous – simply there for the titillation of whatever executive, and the male viewers. However IMO the beauty of a naked man is NOT full frontal, but back/butt views….. And chest and arms and little line of hairs down from a tight belly…..
    Not that anyone should take my views or any female views under their notice of course, when deciding who to titillate on GoT…..!

  321. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Just because men often pay to see breasts in the context of porn doesn’t mean we want to see them at the expense of a good story, and just because women aren’t shelling out big bucks for porn doesn’t mean they don’t want to see a bit of eye-candy in programs they do pay for and watch.

    I’ve never said men want to see naked women at the expense of a good story. I’m not sure why you felt the need to bring this up in response to me. I also never said women don’t want to see a bit of eye-candy in programs they do pay for and watch. In fact, I’ve acknowledged numerous times that I fully understand that women like this kind of thing. I’m not sure what any of that has to do with me. I think the problem is that you are attributing to me beliefs that I haven’t said or believe and then proceeding to express your disagreement with this strawman you have created of me.

    In fact it’s rather insulting to insinuate that on the basis of their porn-buying habits, males are asking for meaningless nudity in their television dramas in order to be interested, just as it is insulting to women to say that merely because they don’t often pay for porn, that’s an indication of a lower libido or a lack of appreciation for the male body and hence, male nudity is not worth putting in television programming.

    I’m not insinuating any of that so I really don’t understand your feelings of being insulted. The strawman you created of me is the one saying and insinuating what you’ve been writing. You should be insulted by your strawman, not me.

    I can see we are getting nowhere and further conversation between each other is not going to be stimulating. Have a good day.

  322. Silverjaime
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Meg: No, the question is – why does culture (through GoT in this case) silence female audiences’ enjoyment of sexuality and encourage men’s? Using the market to prove your hypothesis of decreased female desire of male bodies compared to male desire of female bodies would get you kicked out of social science research methods 101.

    This!

  323. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Remaal,

    I agree 100% with you on the intention of the punishment. But I found personally in the writing that Cersei came out of it stronger than ever. The High Septon and his Sparrows are doomed and Cersei will be the equivalent of the Mad King by the end of the series. Which would make even greater sense if Jaime and Cersei are Aerys Targaryen’s bastards. Making Jaime Azor Ahai who must kill his love (Cersei) as well as fulfilling Maggie the Frog’s prophecy.

    It’s a Full circle narrative if you think about it. “The Things I do for Love” indeed.

  324. Remaal
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    SilverjaimeHowever IMO the beauty of a naked man is NOT full frontal, but back/butt views….. And chest and arms and little line of hairs down from a tight belly…..

    I agree with this. There’s not a more beautiful sight in the world than a well formed male bum and the line it takes down to well muscled thighs. The frontal is of passing interest for no more than curiosity’s sake, for me anyway.

  325. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Silverjaime,

    But I’m grateful to people like Dan for telling me how I feel about naked men,

    I didn’t tell you anything about how you feel about naked men. I’m not sure where you came up with that. I’ve acknowledged countless times that I understand most women like naked men. I can’t believe this keeps coming back up. Is there any person on here that doesn’t believe that most women enjoy the naked male body? Can you please save your self righteous indignation for someone who actually shares the beliefs you for some reason have attributed to me?

  326. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Sorry that is has diminished the series for you. I still love the acting, production design and the spirit if Martin’s story that still holds strong throughout in my opinion. To risk pissing anybody off I thought it from day 1 that any kind of nudity in the series was more of a marketing ploy than it was essential to the narrative. I am surprised that people actually thought that it was made to serve the story. Regardless of who made the series for HBO or if it had been showtime or Starz (gah!) we would have had the same result. The sad reality is that sex sells and it’s still a male skewed culture from a studio standpoint. To think otherwise is not necessarily naive per se, but I am just surprised that no one realized this from the get go?

    I guess some can brush it aside as a necessity/evil of the business and enjoy the good stuff. Or some cannot.

  327. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Too bad.

  328. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    pleonasm,

    Yea, because things appealing to men is sexist. Your ignorance is sickening, you’ve not only misunderstood what I’ve said but have revealed your bigotry as well.

  329. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    It’s funny that women come into classically male spaces and demand that changes be made to suit them and their sensibilities. Where were all the men demanding that Sex and the City change to appeal more to men? Or Desperate Housewives? Or any of the legion of other shows that are designed to appeal to women? These men don’t exist. You know why? Because these shows shouldn’t have to change to appeal to them. If all of this bothers you so much stop watching the show, don’t start demanding that it change.

    You still single, Dogmayor?

  330. sedeyus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor: pleonasm, Yea, because things appealing to men is sexist. Your ignorance is sickening, you’ve not only misunderstood what I’ve said but have revealed your bigotry as well.

    As a neutral observer, I’ll say she wasn’t saying that appealing to men was bad, she was critizing you for claiming GoT or fantasy as ‘a male space’. You’re basically falling into the same trap that Gina Bellefanta did with her GoT review. You think GRRM wanted this series to be classified as ‘a male space’?

  331. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    yes it is an insult. and yes I know what depraved means, even so english is not my first language. I exaggerate and you may have noticed the ;-).
    I would argue that your point about that man are more depraved then women is wrong.
    Also i am not your buddy, yet, dude. ;-)

  332. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    Stannis was not a swashbucklinghero.

    He is a man who gets things done.

    His risky charging into the fray are the actions of a fanatic not of a fool.

    Maybe swashbuckling was the wrong word. However, you don’t get to be king in Westeros for being “badass”, as you put it. You get it by using your resources intelligently while minimizing the risks to your own person. He acted like an all-American cowboy, not a medieval field marshal. He showed courage under fire, not brains.

    Btw, in TV show, it’s quite clear Stannis is merely using Melisandre to rally the people of Dragonstone behind him and later, to eliminate Renly. She’s an asset, much as Davos is. His son and Stannis’ wife bought into the religious mumbo-jumbo, but Stannis and Davos pointedly did not. Davos quite clearly warned him that a victory with Melisandre at KL would be perceived as her victory and Stannis heeded that warning.

  333. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    I said ‘classically’ male space. There is no debate that JRR Tolkien’s works and many of the copycats that followed were geared towards men. Nearly all of the protagonists were men. Is this a bad thing? No. Does this mean that these things also don’t appeal to women? No. I don’t think that GRRM necessarily wanted the series to be classified as a ‘male space’ but it’s not his responsibility, nor is it the responsibility of the show’s producers, to appeal to women. Saying that this is somehow representative of victimization or disenfranchisement of women is asinine as the same argument could be made about media that is aimed at women doing the same to men.

  334. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    I never got the impression from reading ASOIAF that it was a “male space.” If Martin had only had male POVs and women in very limited roles, I might interpret it as such, and probably not have enjoyed the series as much since that is a very limited perspective.

    And for what it’s worth, Sex and the City was often criticized when it was on the air for it’s narrow and sometimes insulting view of men.

  335. Silverjaime
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Dan: You honestly believe that the average women likes male nudity as much as the average man likes female nudity? I’m shocked this is even debatable

    This is just one of your comments about the average woman and male nudity, there are many more. Your implication at the beginning of this thread was that most women don’t like male nudity particularly and hence there are no male strip clubs. So I didn’t “come up with” anything. I may have identified with the “average woman” in your argument but I don’t agree with your inference.

  336. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: And for what it’s worth, Sex and the City was often criticized when it was on the air for it’s narrow and sometimes insulting view of men.

    Yes although the eventual consensus among many was that it was actually about gay men’s relationships, not women’s at all, at a time when a show about four NYC gay men would have been problematic, even on HBO.

  337. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    I think its clearly a case of the writing in concert with what they had to work with stepping outside of the story world and bringing other qualities to bear. Directors and writers do this all the time. You always see those featurettes where they say “we did this instead because we felt that…” which can bite them in the ass in terms of portraying character. Film makers make that mistake all the time. And I may say that military history and strategy seems to be very important to you based on your writings yet others may not see Stannis as the military rube that you do. Instead he is being credited as ‘ badass’ for his actions. Not the grandest of titles really in the long run but that seems to be symptomatic of this show as a whole: boobs and blood for one demographic, some great dialogue and characterisation for another demographic, subtle nuance for another but not too much because (let’s face it) not all of the demographic cares about subtle nuance. This show could never ever be perfect not if it wants to say on the air long. I think the last statement there can fit into the ongoing argument on this thread.

    As for Stannis’ fanaticism he may be playing it close to the chest or after the fall of Blackwater he may just fall head first into zealousness.

    I respect your point of view though.

  338. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Wolfheart:
    HAH! Producers are shoehorning in non cannon nude scenes and sexposition because they are pervs and want pervs to be happy confirmed. HAH!

    the SNL skit hit the nail on the head about the sex. Might be why it was such a hot button!

    I’d like to add that the gratuitous violence in Blackwater seems to be overlooked compared to the nudity in the season. I wonder how much money they could have saved to budget something else in VFX such as oh I dont know…dragons or direwolves, if they didn’t involve someones head being cut in half or a rock falling and smashing in their skull. At least the Sandor cutting someone in half showed how powerful he was.

    Actually the scene was already in place, the only difference apparently being that the whore on Bronn’s lap ended up nude. The non-canon scene was written by GRRM, so blame him.

    And graphic violence isn’t all that expensive to portray, definitely nothing like CGI creatures. This director specializes in that stuff, and doing it on the cheap, so that comparison is pretty meaningless.

  339. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    sedeyus,

    I said ‘classically’ male space. There is no debate that JRR Tolkien’s works and many of the copycats that followed were geared towards men. Nearly all of the protagonists were men. Is this a bad thing? No. Does this mean that these things also don’t appeal to women? No. I don’t think that GRRM necessarily wanted the series to be classified as a ‘male space’ but it’s not his responsibility, nor is it the responsibility of the show’s producers, to appeal to women. Saying that this is somehow representative of victimization or disenfranchisement of women is asinine as the same argument could be made about media that is aimed at women doing the same to men.

    What is asinine is how archaic you sound in your arguments.

  340. sedeyus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor: sedeyus, I said ‘classically’ male space. There is no debate that JRR Tolkien’s works and many of the copycats that followed were geared towards men. Nearly all of the protagonists were men. Is this a bad thing? No. Does this mean that these things also don’t appeal to women? No. I don’t think that GRRM necessarily wanted the series to be classified as a ‘male space’ but it’s not his responsibility, nor is it the responsibility of the show’s producers, to appeal to women. Saying that this is somehow representative of victimization or disenfranchisement of women is asinine as the same argument could be made about media that is aimed at women doing the same to men.

    But once again, you’re claiming the series for men when the original author hasn’t done that. LOTR has nothing to do with this fight. Yes, there are likely more male than female fans, but I think GoT’s fanbase has a large enough portion of female fans not to be simply classified as a guy thing.
    And I think the issue a few of the female fans are raising, if there’s a special effort being done by the TV writers to appeal men with the TnA scenes, why aren’t the same efforts being made to appeal to them? I mean these scenes (for instance, a fully-clothed Bronn and a naked Armeca) are clearly filmed for/from a male PoV.

  341. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Silverjaime,

    I think Dan’s intentions are decent, but in a discussion like this it is foolish to make generalizations. It never ever works. Like issues of racism, religion, such a discussion calls for extreme diplomacy in our comments and in our replies. He is simply trying to put an academic, detached view on things yet like all of us we resort to our personal experience and perspective. I don’t think he deserves your rancour. I don’t mean to admonish you or anyone who may disagree with his statement but it is clear that he is not embracing a larger world view in his comments.

  342. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    And graphic violence isn’t all that expensive to portray, definitely nothing like CGI creatures. This director specializes in that stuff, and doing it on the cheap, so that comparison is pretty meaningless.

    Indeed, just watch Centurion. That movie is full of scenes like the ones that were in Blackwater.
    Also, it’s sort of a medieval battle. They were messy and brutal just as the battles today, except people back then had fewer means to deal mass damage to the enemy. I didn’t mind the violence in this episode, it seemed fitting and necessary.

    P.S.
    Might be a bit strange for Neil Marshall to direct something with Liam Cunnigham and not to kill him in some creative and bloody way, like he did in Dog Soldiers and Centurion :)

  343. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Silverjaime,

    Your implication at the beginning of this thread was that most women don’t like male nudity particularly and hence there are no male strip clubs.

    That wasn’t my implication at all and since I repeated again and again and again that I don’t agree with this view I find it absurd to keep accusing me of it. My view is that men are more into seeing naked women than women are into seeing naked men. I didn’t say there were no male strip clubs. I said there was a dearth of them compared to female strip clubs. This is a matter of degrees. It makes no sense to say women don’t like male nudity. Who would believe that? I’m not trying to sneak in some slights against women hidden in unspoken implications. My view isn’t even controversial as studies have shown this to be true many time over. Here is a link I posted early from WebMD that says the same thing I’ve been saying. http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare

    If you want to know if I believe something just ask me. Obviously, I have no problem expressing my beliefs on here. There is no need to go guessing at what I actually believe. But for the love of God, would you please not accuse me of something right after I just said I don’t believe what you accused me of. It is a terribly difficult way to communicate when I keep denying that I hold a certain belief and you keep charging me with it anyway.

  344. MetalgoddessAMB
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus:
    And I think the issue a few of the female fans are raising, if there’s a special effort being done by the TV writers to appeal men with the TnA scenes, why aren’t the same efforts being made to appeal to them? I mean these scenes (for instance, a fully-clothed Bronn and a naked Armeca) are clearly filmed for/from a male PoV.

    Exactly!

    now show me the cock. hehehehe

  345. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,,
    Sure, let’s toss around theories for why visual stimulation exists in the gene pool. But do it responsibly. People should be aware of the impoverishment of data on the evolutionary side (not the psych side) of this reasoning. I compared it to religion because evopsych, especially the kind that appears in popular science magazines, offers a monolithic story of humanity, when in reality we are much more fragmented as a species. That’s why many theories are comparable to origin myths: they are packaged for the public in simple, digesteable forms using clear-cut explanations of how life began. That’s when it becomes pop science. Though many of these explanations may hit very close to the mark, the vast majority of them are inhaled by the public without any exposure to the debate between biologists about the way evolution operates and between social scientists about the pressures that influence the origin of human identity and society. In other words, evopsych is “like” a religion because it claims to connect us to our “animal” past, and can do so better than any other scientific discipline. It’s amazing how many biologists claim to be the “true” inheritor of Darwinism. To even sift through the research properly, you need to read between the lines as they compete for truth claims.

  346. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,
    interesting take, I can see why it irritated you, but for some reason my enjoyment of this change is still fresh. Probably because thus far Stannis hasn’t had very many “telling” scenes about what kind of king he would be. I think non-readers finally had a moment when Stannis’ good qualities could shine. Anyway, he’s a fascinating character who warms to you the more you see him doing and acting . Whenever he is passive (talking and moralizing) he becomes much colder and meaner as a character.

  347. Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    I chose very specific language when defining the fantasy genre as a ‘male space’, careful to note that GRRM’s work does *not necessarily* fall within these boundaries. The simple answer to your question of why don’t they have the same amount of nudity that ostensibly appeals to men as to women is that they don’t have to. All of this complaining smacks of a sense of entitlement and a victim complex, if you want to see naked men inserting them into Game of Thrones is not your only avenue. There’s also a strong implication from many of these posters that if something appeals to men and not to women it is sexist or abhorrent, this is something which I find offensive.

  348. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk,
    I agree with most of what you said, but this,

    If HBO truly believed more male nudity would help their bottom line they would do so, fact is they won’t and it’s because it’s still not socially accepted to see women behave like a typical episode of GIRLS.

    made me confused. SATC was a booming franchise for them, why wouldn’t they believe it? Moreover, where is it socially acceptable to see women behaving like men? Among TB, Girls, and SatC fans – yes. Traditional boys’ playrooms (fantasy fiction on TV) – no. Women are non-persons for the nudity accountants at HBO and also non-persons in fantasy fandom in general. Although the latter is changing, thank god. I just don’t want GoT to be typecast for “the dudes only” when its audience clearly doesn’t compartmentalize itself like that.

  349. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Dan: I have simply acknowledged that men’s visual pleasures are more catered to than women’s visual pleasure, and I have given my reasons for why I believe this is the case.

    Pushback might be because female fans of GoT are different, and don’t fit your (in my view, questionable) theory. Who knows. It shouldn’t require a massive sea change in porn consumption habits to get some male nudity on the show, however. All execs have to do is listen to “female game of thrones fans” and entertain the idea that they may be different than the “average female” (whoever she is).

    But, if we’re going to talk so cynically about nudity and cashflow, I’ll admit that I resent the extra fanservice men receive (so easily without any storyline integration). I shouldn’t have to participate in the depravity Olympics (as fun as they are) to convince the show runners to add a new color in their palette of sexual expression. ;)

  350. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    sedeyus: It doesn’t break her.

    I thought she was pretty broken at the end, too. Poor Cers, I can’t believe Martin did that to her. The whole set-up felt a bit cheap after I discovered that Jane Shore, Martin’s historical basis for the “walk,” wasn’t even naked…

  351. Steve Hugh Westenra
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,

    Did you read any of those articles? The majority of them seem to have to do with the different chemicals released by the brain during sex. That first article is on-topic, but seems to suggest only that men and women’s physical responses to arousal differ, not that women aren’t aroused.

    I definitely agree with you that the way nudity and sexuality on the show have been treated has generally been quite clumsy and one-sided.

    NOTE AND APOLOGY: I wrote this response much earlier and then left the computer and forgot I hadn’t sent it, so it’s probably out-of-date now, but I didn’t want it to seem like I had ignored the reply!

  352. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    DH87: As someone in the industry, you probably know that if random rare-car suppliers are telling their director “I want full frontal nudity in this scene,” and that director is saying “Okay, you’re the boss,” D&D have bigger problems than the amount of female nudity in their show.

    Bwah!

    Ours is the Fury:
    I never got the impression from reading ASOIAF that it was a “male space.” If Martin had only had male POVs and women in very limited roles, I might interpret it as such, and probably not have enjoyed the series as much since that is a very limited perspective.

    And for what it’s worth, Sex and the City was often criticized when it was on the air for it’s narrow and sometimes insulting view of men.

    Indeed! This series has some incredibly strong women. There is not a chance in hell Martin wasn’t aiming the books at as broad an audience as possible. Of course the genre in general has historically trended male, but things are shifting rapidly.

    Joshua Taylor,

    I really like this post. I interpreted Stannis’ chutzpah in the battle not as foolishness or naivety, or even as mere ‘badass’ behavior. Perhaps I am just bringing over my book knowledge with me, but I saw that scene and immediately just thought, he believes he is inevitably going to win, Melisandre has told him this and he has no reason to doubt her power. That is why he was unconcerned with however many thousands of his men he had to put in the way. He saw himself as inevitable and untouchable. I am greatly interested to see how the show will handle a post-defeat Stannis. The actor has been wonderful.

  353. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Meg: I thought she was pretty broken at the end, too. Poor Cers, I can’t believe Martin did that to her. The whole set-up felt a bit cheap after I discovered that Jane Shore, Martin’s historical basis for the “walk,” wasn’t even naked…

    “Poor Cers”, you mean the person who used one of her pet sellswords to try to frame the queen (and her teen/pre-teen handmaidens) for having sex with him, leading to their capture and punishment by a bunch of religious fanatics? I mean that walk of shame is just about the most poetic justice you can imagine for all the bullshit Cersei was responsible for, including taking the steps to ensure the Faith of the Seven had the kind of power that would enable them to exact that kind of punishment on her in the first place.

    And I don’t really believe she was that broken either, if anything it broke her just enough that she wants to get back at her enemies even more.

    Yeah it’s a cruel punishment, and in a more enlightened society she’d receive the intensive psychiatric care she obviously needs, but in the context of Westeros I thought the punishment fit the crime.

  354. DH87
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Gatorfisch: Too bad.

    Hey, I’ll survive.
    But this isn’t my first time at the screen adaption rodeo: when good shows begin to run off the rails, I’m the canary in the coal mine, your modern Cassandra, predicting doom when everyone is still saying, hey they know what they’re doing, get over it, get a life, etc. It’s not the stupid frat-boy sensibility, but the slow rot this kind of showrunner decision-making triggers that eventually causes an adaptation to screw the pooch.

    It’s not too late to stop the crap, but it isn’t too soon, either. One bad decision complicates things really quickly and HBO has a history of NOT intervening in showrunners’ day to day stuff until it just pulls the plug, in the nicest possible way, and gives its $70million annually to American Gods or the next Homeland or some other hot idea coming down the road.

  355. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Pushback might be because female fans of GoT are different, and don’t fit your (in my view, questionable) theory. Who knows.

    I don’t mind when people disagree with me. Disagreements force me to either improve my arguments or change my opinion. What I find objectionable is when people twist my words or just outright make things up. If people would like me to clarify something I said because they aren’t sure what I meant then I have no problem doing so. It’s when people go off on these tangents calling me sexist or homophobic, based on some strawman they created, that annoys me. But if people want to disagree and discuss then I’m all for that.

    It shouldn’t require a massive sea change in porn consumption habits to get some male nudity on the show, however. All execs have to do is listen to “female game of thrones fans” and entertain the idea that they may be different than the “average female” (whoever she is).

    Well, if women want to see more nudity catered towards their interests then the best way to do that is to make it more profitable for businesses to do that. That doesn’t necessarily mean they just need to buy more porn but they’re going to have to demonstrate this desire in a way that fattens pockets if they expect anything to change. As for GoT, I have no idea why they don’t show more male nudity. Clearly, it isn’t that they are opposed to the idea as they have shown on multiple occasions in the first two seasons. Maybe the actors don’t want to be shown nude. Maybe they don’t think it will improve ratings or quality. How an individual show makes these decisions depends on many different factors. I wouldn’t have a problem if they did start showing more male nudity though. I’m a huge fan of the female nudity so I can understand why a women would want more from the men. But my comments have been more concentrated on why, in general, males are more heavily catered towards on this issue.

  356. Meg
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Steven,
    No need for a vehement response, everyone has different reactions to that scene. Some people felt pity, others say it felt like justice. It was clearly written to go either way.

    My opinion: the punishment didn’t fit the crime. She didn’t even understand what her real crimes were. Now the walk has confused her and she thinks to herself “I have sinned most greviously.” She’s not talking about her murders, she’s talking about her “shame of fornication.” She was punished for being a whore, not a murderer. I couldn’t take any satisfaction in that.

    Instead of seeing her pride broken, I wanted to see her love of brutality broken. The former made her the only badass bitch of the series. Now that she wants to direct her ire at the Seven who concocted such a ridiculously sexist punishmet for her, I want her to take. them. all. down. The genius of the twist is that Cersei’s worst qualities (her brutality toward her enemies) now become her best if she were to take on misogynistic religious assholes. As it stands at the end of ADWD, nothing is sadder than Cersei saying to Kevan “it is a wise woman who knows her place.” They took her fierce resistance to male entitlement and smothered it. That’s why I said “poor Cersei.”

  357. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Clearly, it isn’t that they are opposed to the idea as they have shown on multiple occasions in the first two seasons.

    Either I’m forgetting a few instances–entirely probable–or you’re being very liberal in your usage of the word ‘multiple.’ Because I guess two is multiple. All that comes to mind are Hodor in the godswood and some Theon from the first season. Are there others?

  358. Dan
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    They also showed khal drogo’s ass and the penis of the man who tried to poison Dany. Point being they’ve demonstrated a willingness to show male nudity.

  359. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra,

    Yeah… the query I sent you a link to was actually slightly off from the one I intended to send (visual arousal men women). I skimmed 6 or 7 abstracts or conclusions that make the relevant point on that query. There is enough there for a determined agnostic to rely on but also more than enough to support my claim.

  360. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Sorry if my response came off as vehement, that’s just how I talk sometimes. ;-)

    And your opinion makes a lot of sense. I’m not really saying her punishment is appropriate or even effective in the largest sense, but it made perfect sense within the context of the story and the fanaticism of her punishers.

    And I’m all for the Faith getting their asses handed to them as well, fundamentalists in general piss me off to no end….

  361. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Zack,

    They also showed khal drogo’s ass and the penis of the man who tried to poison Dany. Point being they’ve demonstrated a willingness to show male nudity.

    Ah yeah, that dopey guy’s little johnson flopping around after the horse. That. Was. Hawt. ;-)

  362. Zack
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Ah yes. I remember now, and ass does indeed count. I certainly count it for females on the show! lol

    Thanks.

    eta: omg the poisoner. Hahaha!

  363. sedeyus
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Dogmayor: Dogmayor
    Posted June 2, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink
    sedeyus,
    I chose very specific language when defining the fantasy genre as a ‘male space’, careful to note that GRRM’s work does *not necessarily* fall within these boundaries. The simple answer to your question of why don’t they have the same amount of nudity that ostensibly appeals to men as to women is that they don’t have to. All of this complaining smacks of a sense of entitlement and a victim complex, if you want to see naked men inserting them into Game of Thrones is not your only avenue. There’s also a strong implication from many of these posters that if something appeals to men and not to women it is sexist or abhorrent, this is something which I find offensive.

    Can you please point me to where in the thread anyone is saying something that appeals to men as sexist or abhorrent? I’ve checked your posts and the posts you’re responding to and I’m not seeing that anywhere. What they’re saying is how they hate the way that men control the discussion about sexuality and female sexuality in particular. Even in this thread we have men telling women (who you would think might know better) about female sexuality.

    And it’s odd to talk about entitlement when your answer to why they don’t have more male nudity because, “they don’t have to.” That’s almost literally the definition of entitlement right there. Despite being based off of a creative property that wasn’t strictly geared toward men and that has a large female base, they don’t feel the need to include more male nudity because they know there’s not going to be a huge uproar over it. Women arguing for more sex? That’s ridiculous, only men like sex/sarcasm.

    And what’s funny is that the sexism debate cuts both ways. As a heterosexual man, I really don’t like the implication that I’m completely led around my dick. There’s a reason I’ve always hated Ros scenes, there’s a very condescending feeling that the producers are basically saying, “these guys will only like this show if tits are seen every episode.”

    Oh yeah, and here’s the definition of entitlement, “belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges.” So why are men viewers more entitled to more appealing sex scenes than female viewers?

  364. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I liked the Stannis/Mel scene too, it was hot!

    Although I thought it was odd that she seduced him with the promise of a son (a seduction that doesn’t translate too well in the modern world!). Wish she would have told him how the sorcery works, and have him roll with it. It would have been much more erotic while being true to Stannis’ character.

    My list for this season (ladies version):

    1 – Shirtless Gendry

    2 – A Man

    3 – dirty, muddy Jaime

    Unfortunately all of these guys are probably Nevernudes.

    Agreed, although in reverse order. Dirty, muddy Jaime? Thank you, sir, may I have another?

  365. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,,
    I compared it to religion because evopsych, especially the kind that appears in popular science magazines, offers a monolithic story of humanity, when in reality we are much more fragmented as a species.

    This is an important point, but I think you actually have it backwards. People face vast uncertainty living in the world, and they have to fit the limited data available to them together in the best way possible in order to fill in the gaps and make reasonable guesses and assumptions about things outside that data (which, one way or another, is everything). In other words, they need a worldview.

    Think of it this way. If our observations of male and female responses to visual stimulus did not fit the more plausible evolutionary narratives we could think of (our most coherent world view), then that would be a reason to be very skeptical of those observations. This is Bayesian Rationality. (For the truly interested see here.) I presented an evolutionary narrative not because I thought it was necessarily true or proven, but to show why our observations of varying responses in men or women should not be surprising or dubious.

    The reason to reject the empirical claims made by various religions is not that those claims represent unified worldviews. The reason is that those worldviews fit the data available to us more poorly than other worldviews available to us.

    Dan,

    I agree with what you’ve said about the market. The entertainment industry is pretty clearly trying to capture female eyeballs. If a substantial portion of female viewers really cared about seeing male nudity we would expect to see more of the female oriented version of this.

    The relevant viewers of course are not the book readers who are going to watch no matter what (us). Rather, its the marginal viewers: horny teenagers actively seeking out nudity, and prudish 60 year-olds who may tune out if they see the wrong kind (for example).

  366. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    DH87: Hey, I’ll survive.
    But this isn’t my first time at the screen adaption rodeo: when good shows begin to run off the rails, I’m the canary in the coal mine, your modern Cassandra, predicting doom when everyone is still saying, hey they know what they’re doing, get over it, get a life, etc. It’s not the stupid frat-boy sensibility, but the slow rot this kind of showrunner decision-making triggers that eventually causes an adaptation to screw the pooch.

    It’s not too late to stop the crap, but it isn’t too soon, either. One bad decision complicates thingsreally quickly and HBO has a history of NOT intervening in showrunners’ day to day stuff until it just pulls the plug, in the nicest possible way, and gives its $70million annually to American Gods or the next Homeland or some other hot idea coming down the road.

    Sorry, I was actually responding to the post about NCW having the no nudity clause. LOL I just hit respond not quote. :(

  367. DH87
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    sedeyus: there’s a very condescending feeling that the producers are basically saying, “these guys will only like this show if tits are seen every episode.”

    I propose a new department for WIC: Perv Watch! (trademark pending)

    “Welcome to Perv Watch!….Live Nude Girls! Live Every Week! Because We Don’t Trust Our Story-telling Abilities to Hold the Interest of the Morons Who Watch Our Show!!!”

  368. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    I would say “poor Septon and his Sparrows”. In my opinion their days are numbered. Cersei will get her retribution just you wait, she is going to go out in a mad blaze of glory. She is far from broken, she is revitalized, she is repaired. As she was broken already since Joff died. I also don’t think Kevan Lannister believed a word of it. How is Cersei going to rule in KL according to Varys’ plan when Kevan and Pycelle are assassinated? She knew Kevan and Pycelle were done for I think and may have even ordered it with Varys pretending to be her advisor when he is really the shepherd guiding her on her path of destruction so that Westeros will accept Aegon with open arms after she is done with the place.

    I could be wrong of course. But reading that particular chapter I was assaulted with this vibe that I didn’t by her conversation with Kevan at all. And furthermore I saw the walk as a humbling, yet empowering experience for her. Not to say that your conviction about this aspect of the story is as strong or as weak as mine, that’s just the impression that I had. Such is the beauty of literature with it’s vast array of interpretation.

  369. Jordan Healey
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    That’s funny because he uses two character names from ASoIAF in Centurion I thought he was a fan of the series.

    There you go.

  370. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    Pyrrhus,

    I see you linked to an article by Bryan Caplan. Are you very familiar with his work? I’ve been studying Austrian economics for years and so I’ve ran across him a lot. I currently have a link saved on my phone to an article by Walter Block that goes through a series of letters they sent back and forth debating fractional reserve banking. When I saw you bring up Bayes’ Theorem and link to EconLog I was even more sure that I would enjoy drinking beers with you.

  371. Sherri
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    If you’ve seen Skins, you’d know that Joe Dempsie is definitely not a nevernude. Then again, Richard Madden was nude in Sirens, but not GOT, so you never know.

  372. Kalice
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    So I watch True Blood and Game of Thrones. As a woman, the nudity in Game of Thrones bothers me. The nudity in True Blood does not. This is why…True Blood is a fluffy story. The nudity in True Blood is usually during sex. The men are hot, the scenes are hot, it works for me. The Game of Thrones story is so deep, rich and complex. The nudity at times is forced for the sake of showing T&A. This director’s quote just confirms what many of us have already been thinking. The worst offender of this was the Ross/Littlefinger scene last year. What Littlefinger was saying in his monolog was important but it was lost because the visual was so powerful and distracting. I NEVER want to miss out of story for porn. I am all for nudity if it story driven. I am totally against nudity that is inserted to perv it up! This story is too good to be belittled in that way.

  373. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    Kalice,

    Your post was awesome.

    Unfortunately HBO believes (and I believe it is HBO not D & D) otherwise. We need to start a petition or something to make this known. How powerful is the fratboy T & A and blood and guts demo anyway? I’m sure they won’t object to plot related nudity, as long as it’s female of course. I honestly believe they are afraid of an equalizing of the genders in this regard, for fear of frightening off a male fan base that probably wouldn’t care as much as they think.

    Seriously we need an online petition to tell HBO to respect their source material, that not all of us simply want to see gratuitous female nudity. Bring it to Linda at Westeros to present it to the people at Thronescast. We need viral videos, the whole shabang. We need to get HBO’s attention.

  374. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    Dan,

    Yeah, I’m a huge Caplan fan. I read Econlog… religiously.

  375. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    As for Stannis’ fanaticism he may be playing it close to the chest or after the fall of Blackwater he may just fall head first into zealousness.

    I respect your point of view though.

    I’m not saying watching Stannis in Blackwater wasn’t entertaining as a man of action. I just felt it ran somewhat counter to the cold, deliberate and hard-nosed strategist we had been led to believe he was.

    Thusfar on the TV show, his zeal has centered on his desire for the throne. Everything else has been a means to that end.

    I do respect your point of view as well, though.

  376. Meg
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    Dan: Well, if women want to see more nudity catered towards their interests then the best way to do that is to make it more profitable for businesses to do that. That doesn’t necessarily mean they just need to buy more porn but they’re going to have to demonstrate this desire in a way that fattens pockets if they expect anything to change.

    As I said in another post, the profitability of female desire is known to HBO. They got fucking rich off of SATC. I’m sure you see the double standard here that makes this whole thing a bit irritating. Even though these execs know that PROFITS CAN BE MADE, women are still responsible for making GoT execs pay attention to them, while men have easy access to as much titillation as they want?? Yeah, right. D&D keep calling this a “sexy” show in interviews, but it’s sexy in the same way that advertising is a male fuck fantasy playground designed just for them. In other words, one-note sexy. The burden shouldn’t be on women to explain this to HBO. In fact, female fans don’t have to “demonstrate” anything.

  377. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    As I said to Kalice above, we need to get a petition going to make HBO aware of this fact. We would probably get a lot of signatures if he wanted. One the most popular and vocal members of the ‘Geek ‘ community is a woman, Felicia Day, and she has mentioned many of time of how gratuitous the sex and nudity on Game of Thrones is. If we can recruit voices like that in our cause it may work. What about Winter and FaB, or Ours is the Fury and Simone? What about Elio and Linda at Westeros?

    Seriously,a petition or some kind of fan movement on an KONY-esque level is what is needed here. It seems the only way to change things.

  378. Jordan Healey
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    I don’t think HBO believes otherwise. It’s just David and Dan.

    David Simon’s shows don’t have much nudity.

  379. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Jordan Healey,

    All right so we recruit Amanda Peet then? ;-)

  380. darquemode
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 3:15 am | Permalink

    I’m surprised to see this post still going strong honestly. The nudity on the series is such a non-issue for me I hardly feel right devoting any time to the topic….

    Personnally, I have no issue with the nudity in general, how it is more women than men, or how it often has ireelevant roleplayers naked “taking time away from” this person or that.

    I understand why HBO inserts the nudity honestly. They like to have a series push the limits and get some buzz and free press., and because they can.

    I could do without it in most cases and I would not miss it honestly. That said, I don’t think removing the nude scenes would add more time for books scenes previously omitted. They would just find a less graphic way to basically do the same thing and it would still basically be the same scene in the end.

    I have yet to hate a scene because of the sex or nudity itself… I have disliked a few scenes that I felt ran long. Honestly though, during most of the the length in those scenes there was no nudity on screen it was exposition from someone as the camera focused on them speaking.

    I have disliked the scenes because they were redundant or long-winded and I would have disliked the scenes just as much if everyone was dressed. I dislike some scenes because they are bad, and more often than not they are not bad because of the sex or nudity.

    I guess I also see the executive’s point that if they are going to have a scene with some nudity anyway they don’t need to shoot it in such a way that it is subtle. Not saying I think every nude scene should therefore be graphic or extreme though….

    I don’t understand the virtual tally board some keep to see which gender has more butt shots, or bare chest shots or crotch shots etc…. I just cannot fathom how they would have equal male to female nudity without deviating even further away from the books. Maybe some nude icehole swimming beyod the Wall? More shirtless haircuts like in Season 1? The knights on the battle field imediately stripping off their armor and all their clothing to clean up after?

    Oh well, I think D&D have done a good job even if I don’t like everything. And the nudity has honestly been the last thing I worry about or the last thing to annoy me in any episode.

  381. Jordan Healey
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    darquemode:

    I have disliked the scenes because they were redundant or long-winded and I would have disliked the scenes just as much if everyone was dressed. I dislike some scenes because they are bad, and more often than not they are not bad because of the sex or nudity.

    It’s because they were a big fan of this.

  382. Meg
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 3:34 am | Permalink

    Josh, sure, a petition can’t hurt, but these kinds of things need to work their way through the fandom first (i.e. a petition written by Linda is going to get ZERO traction by fans on tumblr).

    I actually want to do some research before I direct my ire at D&D. I’ve been reading their statements about sex in the show from interviews. Here are some that I found interesting (lovingly taken out of context for your reading pleasure)

    You just have to do what feels right to you and not worry too much about it. [You don't] start counting how many breasts per episode or how many full‑frontal male nudity shots. – Weiss 3/12

    They might not, but someone else is.

    We’re very committed to the physical and mental well-being of the people on the show, not putting them into situations which are going to be psychologically damaging to them. If we psychologically damage the prudes of America then we’re happy! - 3/12

    That bolded part is hilarious to me; I can’t exactly fault them for such a noble quest. There is another interview that I read recently where the producers talked about the response to the nudity they got after S1. I believe they said something about going further with sex in S2 to push buttons and challenge audiences (wildly paraphrasing, sorry, I can’t find the link). I’m just guessing but it sounds like a good motive for including the Joffrey/Ros scene. I also think that D&D might be confusing the complaints (like Kalice’s) about the sex being “distracting” with prudishness.

    We didn’t want to have something where it was the equivalent of a shower scene, basically just showing someone naked, for the sake of having a little bit more nudity in the show. It is a very sexual world. We want to see Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) with a prostitute in a brothel, and not cover it up daintily with sheets, the way you would have to on network television or in a PG-13 movie. It’s equal opportunity nudity. Khal Drogo (Jason Momoa) comes in and does what he does, quite brutally with his young wife, and it should feel brutal. It’s supposed to be terrifying for her. Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) is a young girl. – Benioff 4/11

    Clearly they know that not all sex in the show is designed to titillate and that sexual violence exists. Unfortunately, the one time we got to see a bit of male flesh (Theon and Drogo), both of them were acting like the women were their property and sex was something they deserved. Not exactly hot, although Momoa is gorgeous.

  383. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 3:58 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    As I said in another post, the profitability of female desire is known to HBO. They got fucking rich off of SATC. I’m sure you see the double standard here that makes this whole thing a bit irritating. Even though these execs know that PROFITS CAN BE MADE, women are still responsible for making GoT execs pay attention to them, while men have easy access to as much titillation as they want?? Yeah, right. D&D keep calling this a “sexy” show in interviews, but it’s sexy in the same way that advertising is a male fuck fantasy playground designed just for them. In other words, one-note sexy. The burden shouldn’t be on women to explain this to HBO. In fact, female fans don’t have to “demonstrate” anything.

    The entertainment industry does cater towards women. You mentioned SATC, for example. Virtually everything my girlfriend watches is geared specifically towards women. Women have entire networks geared towards them. The industry as a whole just doesn’t cater to females as much as men when it comes to sex and nudity. Considering men spend vastly more on titillating material this shouldn’t be shocking. The entertainment industry is not in the business of being egalitarians, they are in the business of making money for their products. Yes, I’m sure women would like to see more material that is geared to titillate females but that doesn’t mean that it is more profitable for HBO or other networks to do that. What if by producing more material to titillate women in lieu of focusing on titillating men ends up losing them money on net? It is not their responsibility to make things equal. It’s their responsibility to be as profitable as possible. The only way this is going to change is if networks believe they can make more profits by focusing on sexual material for women in lieu of doing that for men. You may not think this is fair but that is irrelevant when it comes to business decisions.

    As for GoT specifically, they do try to cater towards women’s desires as well as men’s. Obviously we get more female nudity than male nudity but it isn’t like D&D are ignoring women. I sure see a lot of comments on here about how hot these guys on the show look with their shirts off. I don’t think these actors being shirtless is essential to the plot, do you? Now you may want more ass and penis but for all we know the male actors are less willing to strip down. No matter how much nudity is on GoT, male or female, there are going to be people who say it is not enough or it is too much. They can’t please everyone.

    Oh, and I do not have as much titillating material as I want. I want a lot more. So I guess HBO is in a real pickle with both of us wanting them to focus on our own desires.

  384. Drfunk
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    I’ve never watched SATC, did it showcase a lot of male nudity to the point where people will make it an issue like it is with GoT? I’ve no data to support anything but it seems we see a lot more female nudity than male ones by far. So for them to explicitly show far more random male junk shots would be counter productive (assuming they feel a bare breast will net them something). That said, the nudity itself doesn’t bother me at all. Sure TB’s gratuitous sex scenes “flow” better since it happens right before any one of the leads decides to get it on. Does it make it better? Not really. TB inserts a lot of those things because the series has gone completely off the reservations compared to the source material.

    TB writers realize that they can have any of their leads bang whoever is on the screen whenever they get a mental block on their creative writing. So yeah it’s fluffy because it’s got no substance. GoT doesn’t have the problem of not having enough material but for w/e retarded reason feel the need to go tit for tat with a show designed for the common denominator i.e Spartacus.

    Seriously, how many of you who feel GoT is being gratuitous have watched Spartacus? That show is the definition of gratuitous. Characters on that show are always naked as a rule, UNLESS THE CLOTHES WILL ACTUALLY PROVIDE SOME SORT OF PLOT ADVANCEMENT. The hilarious part about this show is that it somehow all works out. They have just enough plot developments to justify itself as an actual show while 80% of the hour is spent watching decapitations or softcore porn.

    Compared to that show the sex in GoT is frankly at an amateur level. So yeah, the girl in Bronn’s scene did NOT need to be naked, but considering how a show like Spartacus has everyone naked in the background it’s not the end of the world. Could it have been shot without? Sure. There’s still a reason why some suit ordered it though. Focus group studies testing some demo, I don’t know. All i know is that the scene with Bronn vs the Hound was good and I can be happy about it.

    The problem with GoT is when the writers put “their vision” of Westeros and essentially cheapen some characters. That should the focus, NOT the frontal shot of some random actress we’ll never see again. I just find it hilarious how some find all the sex in other shows perfectly acceptable but the moment we see anything in GoT they question its necessity.

  385. Tom
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    Unfortunately, the one time we got to see a bit of male flesh (Theon and Drogo)

    I must’ve missed that one time! That’d be the best scene I’ve ever seen.

  386. sedeyus
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:35 am | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    You basically answer most of your questions, Drfunk .
    1. Game of Thrones is treated differently than Spartacus and True Blood. Very quickly it’s climbed the lists to be up there will Mad Men and Breaking Bad to be considered one of the best shows on television. It’s not judged on a ‘So bad it’s good’ meter. It’s judged on a ‘Is it the best show on television’ meter. It means GoT can’t get away with the same story crutches those shows use.

    2. In True Blood and Spartacus, I am always wondering if those shows could actually fill the time not spend on sex and nudity. I don’t know if their stories are good enough. I’ve never had that question about GoT. I know it. I know every minute spent in a brothel is taking away time from some other scene, in or out of the books, that keep me more entertained and used as a better tool to enlighten newbies about the world of Westeros. For example, the same episode with the Ros/Littlefinger brothel scene was also the episode where Jon was inducted into the Night’s Watch. The scene where Jon goes to Aemon and asks him to help get Sam past basic training was cut. If that scene gets shown it could have been used to inform newbie viewers: about the Maesters, about Aemon (who would have a big scene a couple episodes later), shown the leadership qualities Mormont saw in Jon, and explain why Sam is dedicated to Jon. Now I’ll admit that one of those scenes that I love that got cut because of time restraints. Every book reader has one. I’m understanding that there will be changes because of time. But it’s so frustrating to think what was left on the floor to give us that Littlefinger monologue.

    3. I think arguably the biggest reason GoT gets so much flak for it’s nudity is because of what it represents for fantasy and genre fans. It has a real chance to breakout into the mainstream and knock away the last stigmas about fantasy fans. It’s hard to argue that it’s serious and mature when SNL’s (rightly) mocking it for basically trying to appeal to thirteen-years old.

  387. Remaal
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    Jordan Healey: It’s because they were a big fan of this.

    Well, if they are fans, they certainly didn’t learn anything from it. That is a brilliant scene, and nothing GOT has offered so far in terms of expositional scenes, be they sexual or not, even comes close to the quality of the Deadwood scene you linked, imho.

    Note there was no nudity in that scene at all. And for 90% of the time, the camera was in tight focus on Swearengen, never once allowing our attention to be diverted from his soliloquy, the context in which it was delivered merely added to the power of the information, and psychological insight, he was relaying.

  388. Meg
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    On Cersei,

    Josh your version makes a lot of sense; I am very open to different interpretations here. I hope and that she’s back to manipulating people, only this time in a smarter fashion. I know that eventually she has to be back somehow. That was rock bottom for her and she broke down at the end.

    It’s hard to see her as mentally sound after everything. Is she even in her right mind? I still can’t get over her thoughts about the walk being an “atonement” for her “sins” (her words) . I was thinking – what sins, exactly? I know its meant to be ambiguous, but she seemed convinced that she deservedthe shame of feeling like an naked, old, dirty, dried up, floppy-boobed whore. Then, as if the crowd’s laughter at her body wasn’t enough, Frog woman shows up to remind her that she’s ugly. This is why I think she’s going through some major ptsd that has made her more unstable – not revitalized.

    My original statement expressed disbelief that Martin did this to launch her redemption arc. Its as if he took the wicked queen meme and humbled her by having Snow White laugh at her saggy boobs. It was very heavy-handed. He destroys what she holds most dear – her pride – but I think Martin confuses this with beauty. Hence, the barrage of insults directed toward her body. This is extra jarring considering that Cersei’s pride isn’t just simple vanity. On top of this gender-specific version of pride, you have the world’s biggest slut shaming. This kind of detailed humiliation (the shaving, god) wasn’t written in such graphic, play-by-play detail for any other character. Needless to say I have a lot of mixed, confused feelings about the whole thing.

  389. Meg
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:19 am | Permalink

    Tom: I must’ve missed that one time! That’d be the best scene I’ve ever seen.

    Haha! Accidental fanfic.

  390. darquemode
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    Jordan Healey,

    Ha! Awesome thanks.
    Awwww. :)
    That scene reminded me of how much I miss Deadwood!

    McShane had some amazing scenes similar to that one with an almost Shakespearean quality juxtaposed against the crassness and vulgarity of both the era and the scene itself. It made for some genius dramatic moments.

    Milch (and/or his writing team) have such a great way with words. Luck was very much like that too. I think that is part of what Thrones is missing in its sexposition maybe. Thrones dialog (in the sexpo scenes) sometimes is nothing special on its own and it requires the actors to really execute in the delivery of the dialog… Even if and when they do, it is more the performance that is noticed. In Deadwood those lines so often stood out on their own for the cadence and choice of words themselves… and of course the juxtaposition I mentioned earlier.

    I think a Deadwood rewatch is in order this Summer!
    Thank you for motivating me.

  391. Dogmayor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    sedeyus,

    The accusation that this appeal to men is sexist is made repeatedly in this thread, if you don’t care to find it I’m sure you won’t care that I’ve pointed it out to you. And men controlling the discussion on sexuality? Look what you have in this thread, women complaining and men backing them up, as you see time and time again. This is men controlling the conversation?

    Subjective experience is not adequate for determining what is actually occurring in the brain. Experiencing sexual desire and engaging in sexual activities doesn’t mean you understand the brain chemistry involved in these experiences, and none of the men here are commenting on women’s subjective experiences.

    I find it odd that you seem to think that passive observers should have an equal say in an artist’s work as the artist themselves. You call this entitlement. This whole argument that you make is completely baffling. Entitlement comes into play when someone thinks that they deserve to have everything cater to their desires and sensibilities, which is on full display by nearly every woman in this thread. It is not the producer’s responsibility nor is it GRRM’s responsibility to cater to every single demographic that they can think of. Art that attempts to do such things is inevitably watered-down, substandard crap. Is the show racist because it doesn’t have any Asian actors in it? Does the lack of Asian actors mean that the show does not appeal to Asians?

    It’s not really fair to make assumptions about the intentions of the producers when they’re not here to readily defend their positions. Neil Marshall’s comments are hearsay, so please don’t retort with them.

    I’m not claiming that men are more entitled to see nudity that appeals to them than women are, I’m saying that it’s not the producer’s responsibility to be even handed in this case.

  392. Shady_Grady
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    I’m not really understanding the argument against what Dan and a few others said.
    Testosterone is the primary sex hormone and men make LOTS more of it than women do. It’s therefore unsurprising that across cultures and time periods men show more visual desire and more desire for short term couplings than women do. I really think that some women underestimate just how sexually driven men are. This is biological. Whether one thinks this is a good thing is a completely different argument. One doesn’t have to say that women are uninterested in sex or lack sex drive-just that it’s different than men’s.

    Generally speaking, and evidently everyone here is an exception to the rule, people aren’t going to make as much money making visual erotica/porn directed at women as they would at men.

    This in and of itself doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with “appropriate” levels of female or male nudity in either the books or the show. Some of it has worked and some of it hasn’t in my opinion-most scenes involving Ros, for example. The show made quite explicit book subtext between Renly and Loras. There’s been male full frontal nudity, male abs and chest and a few male bottom shots.

    Some of the arguments come across like a man pointing out that romance novels or fanfic does not cater to him. No those markets probably wouldn’t because *in general* men are not as interested in those things as women are.

    Again, I do think some show nudity has been gratuitous. The show missed an opportunity to show a physical loving (even non-nude/topless) relationship between Ned/Catelyn. The LF “sexposition” scene probably sounded better on paper than it looked on the show. That scene would have worked just as well and maybe better w/o the nude women.

  393. Jordan Healey
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    Remaal,

    That’s right.

  394. Zack
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Shady_Grady: Some of the arguments come across like a man pointing out that romance novels or fanfic does not cater to him. No those markets probably wouldn’t because *in general* men are not as interested in those things as women are.

    Which would be a fair point to make if 40% of romance novel sales were coming from men….

  395. darquemode
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    Wow! Is it seriously 40%?
    That seems high to me. I would have assumed 20-25% or maybe 33% tops.The last I heard 4 or 5 years ago it was around 20%…..
    Even so though… if 40% of men read romance novels then it is generally true most are not interested.

  396. Zack
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    darquemode,

    Eek. No, my point was that higher up in the thread, somebody had specified that 40% of the viewers of this program are female.

    Readers of romance novels are clearly much more often female than male. As they’re often written with the female readership in mind, this is natural.

    Whereas fantasy seems, to me, much less naturally inclined toward either gender. It’s fans are mostly men, but there’s no obvious reason why this must always be the case.

    I think of romance and action as the diametrically opposed, naturally gender-tailored genres. The audience for fantasy needn’t be so skewed, but it’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy when the creatives (writers, directors, et cetera) assume ladies aren’t interested and then plan for the males only. Of course girls will be hesitant when they don’t think the writer sees them as an integral part of the audience.

  397. Sijjvra
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Still with the “it’s women’s fault because they don’t pay for enough male nudity to make it profitable”. Again, True Blood, Spartacus was another that was brought up that had a HUGE female fan base. THOUSANDS of online fanfic and male -nudity art sites that are largely populated and funded and run by WOMEN. Gay porn – perhaps not a majority, but a good portion of those sites and dvds are purchased by women for the -same- reason men like lesbian porn. Why do you think so many women commented on liking the Renly/Loras scenes but wanted to see a little more skin? Sure the actors might not have been willing to go that far, and that’s fine, but the -desire- from the female (and gay male) fanbase was -there-. Women, who have expressed a desire for more equal gender nudity in GoT, are PAYING HBO customers just like the men are.

    Try another blanket statement, that one didn’t work.

    Culturally women have been long shamed into keeping quiet about their sexuality and, as is proven in this thread by a few individuals, are insulted, dismissed or told they are silly things if they VOICE their preferences or desire for more eyecandy. Sure, shirtless is nice but it’s not the same thing, is it? Nope.

    No one is disputing that men have a high sex drive due to testosterone. However, estrogen is -just as powerful- a hormone. It works in different ways, but let me tell you, if you don’t have it, and you aren’t a woman, you really have NO right to tell a woman what she would find attractive or that (especially when the topic is repeatedly coming up, market has been PROVEN that yes, female audiences would love to see a little more eyecandy too, and the younger generation of women are becoming especially vocal about this topic) there is no market for it.

    Did anyone check out the sites, or do a search for slash fiction? Probably not. Again, if women weren’t as interested in the male form as men were the female form, those sites would not exist in -droves- .

    I’m not saying the entire show should be NAKEDNAKEDSEXNAKED. But if you’re going to cater to half of your audience by showing a nude woman, what about the other half? Do you largely ignore them or chin up and toss paying subscribers something that there is -clearly- a demand for?

    This is not a show geared only towards men. Women -do- like to see the nude male form and anyone who says there is no market for it is ignoring the facts. The market is -not- as big, sure, but that’s because culture has repressed much of women’s sexuality for -generations-. THAT, kids, will change pretty soon though, a lot of the 20 and 30 somethings are refusing to get back into the kitchen and make a sandwich.

  398. ThePinkDragon
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    The gaslighting going on in this thread, man. I have got to see where this is going.

    http://i.imgur.com/l5vYw.gif

  399. Drfunk
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    sedeyus:
    Drfunk,

    You basically answer most of your questions, Drfunk .
    1.Game of Thrones is treated differently than Spartacus and True Blood.Very quickly it’s climbed the lists to be up there will Mad Men and Breaking Bad to be considered one of the best shows on television. It’s not judged on a ‘So bad it’s good’ meter. It’s judged on a ‘Is it the best show on television’ meter. It means GoT can’t get away with the same story crutches those shows use.

    2. In True Blood and Spartacus, I am always wondering if those shows could actually fill the time not spend on sex and nudity. I don’t know if their stories are good enough. I’ve never had that question about GoT. I know it. I know every minute spent in a brothel is taking away time from some other scene, in or out of the books, that keep me more entertained and used as a better tool to enlighten newbies about the world of Westeros. For example, the same episode with the Ros/Littlefinger brothel scene was also the episode where Jon was inducted into the Night’s Watch. The scene where Jon goes to Aemon and asks him to help get Sam past basic training was cut. If that scene gets shown it could have been used to inform newbie viewers: about the Maesters, about Aemon (who would have a big scene a couple episodes later), shown the leadership qualities Mormont saw in Jon, and explain why Sam is dedicated to Jon. Now I’ll admit that one of those scenes that I love that got cut because of time restraints. Every book reader has one. I’m understanding that there will be changes because of time. But it’s so frustrating to think what was left on the floor to give us that Littlefinger monologue.

    3. I think arguably the biggest reason GoT gets so much flak for it’s nudity is because of what it represents for fantasy and genre fans. It has a real chance to breakout into the mainstream and knock away the last stigmas about fantasy fans. It’s hard to argue that it’s serious and mature when SNL’s (rightly) mocking it for basically trying to appeal to thirteen-years old.

    1. I agree the standards of this show are held to a different scale. That said, a bared breast is exactly that. They can gripe about the pacing/editing/monologues but to complain about nudity is kind of silly. We all know why it’s there but if we set our cynicism aside for a second, most of those shots do blend in a sort of plausible way (unlike MM or BB where random person nude in the background would be out of the place).

    2. I agree in all fronts here. The decision to revert LF into such an obvious lick spittle led to the inclusion of Ros (who was needed to hear how smart LF is), which then led to a bunch of scenes that got rushed or cut altogether from the great source material. If there’s anything to flip the tables about it’s this kind of thing. Not the Bronn freebie shots.

    3. Where is the distinction between “fantasy” and “period drama”? Rome had a lot of the same nudity and yet it earned a lot of critical reviews. Why does that show get a pass but GoT doesn’t? One of the earliest tv critic for GoT (Maureen Ryan) was also one of the first ones to present this theme as an issue. She even went so far as to say how that though Spartacus shows 975% more skin, they are doing it the “right way” while GoT just seems to hastily slap some random nude shots. This is where I find the argument so hypocritical. If people could accept nude shots in Rome because it portrayed its environment accurately (as well as Spartacus), then why is it inconceivable that the whore serving Bronn would be naked as well? Did it take anything away from the Bronn vs Hound showdown? No it did not. Instead of focusing on why they put the shot, why not just take the shot as a background shot of portraying it more realistically? Other shows have done it plenty of time and no one made a big fuss about it.

    This question of the difference in sexuality between both sexes is just asinine. Can we just move on from this issue and talk about EVERY OTHER GATES that may have a bit more substance to them?

  400. House_Tully
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    I was very unhappy with the Littlefinger “play with her ass” scene. However, what I felt was more egregious in that scene was his monologue. He laid out his intentions before the throne room scene. The non-book viewers in the room were totally unsurprised by his actions later. In fact, they went the other way and thought he was taking the Lannisters prisoner too.

  401. DH87
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Jordan Healey: David Simon’s shows don’t have much nudity.

    Neither did Luck, nor Treme, nor did Mildred Pierce, nor did Hemingway and Gellhorn, nor will, I suspect, the Newsroom (unless I’m missing the sexual chemistry between Jeff Daniels and Jane Fonda).

    It is certainly possible that D&D sold this as a “sexy” show, in general terms, to whet HBO’s interest in what seemed a sword and chain mail epic and are now attempting to make it so in an unsuccessful and inept way. They need to regroup and figure out what a smart, sexy, emotional scene actually is (the Dany/Drogo scene was one), write it well, and add it judiciously, instead of parading a nude woman through a “brothel set” every 42 minutes. It’s possible.

  402. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    “Well, I’m not writing about contemporary sex—it’s medieval.

    There’s a more general question here that doesn’t just affect sex or rape, and that’s this whole issue of what is gratuitous? What should be depicted? I have gotten letters over the years from readers who don’t like the sex, they say it’s “gratuitous.” I think that word gets thrown around and what it seems to mean is “I didn’t like it.” This person didn’t want to read it, so it’s gratuitous to that person. And if I’m guilty of having gratuitous sex, then I’m also guilty of having gratuitous violence, and gratuitous feasting, and gratuitous description of clothes, and gratuitous heraldry, because very little of this is necessary to advance the plot. But my philosophy is that plot advancement is not what the experience of reading fiction is about. If all we care about is advancing the plot, why read novels? We can just read Cliffs Notes.

    A novel for me is an immersive experience where I feel as if I have lived it and that I’ve tasted the food and experienced the sex and experienced the terror of battle. So I want all of the detail, all of the sensory things—whether it’s a good experience, or a bad experience, I want to put the reader through it. To that mind, detail is necessary, showing not telling is necessary, and nothing is gratuitous.”
    George rr Martin
    http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/07/george-r-r-martin-on-sex-fantasy-and-a-dance-with-dragons/241738/

  403. Salty Sea Dog
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    one more reason why a book-to-movie adaptation should stick to the books. the book series is a best seller because GRRM wrote it. he spent years researching and writing each book, and each one, in my opinion, is a masterpiece. adapting these masterpieces into something that can be as enjoyable on screen can only be done by staying true to the written material. there is so much depth to these stories, why would there be any need for filler scenes. Each book is around 800-1200 pages long. if all of the sex scenes from one of those books were compiled, it would maybe be a page and a half to two pages. that is not the case with HBO’s portrayal. it seems like a case of HBO thinking they know better that GRRM. if GRRM wanted more sex in his books, he would have put more sex in his books.

  404. moofy
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Did the director say he hadn’t read the books??

  405. Jay
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Who watches an HBO show and complains about nudity. WTF!? If nudity isn’t your thing, HBO programming probably isn’t for you.

  406. LordStarkington
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    moofy:
    Did the director say he hadn’t read the books??

    Yes

  407. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Sijjvra,

    Are you familiar with the term non sequitur?

  408. Zack
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Dan: To that mind, detail is necessary, showing not telling is necessary, and nothing is gratuitous.”
    George rr Martin

    I happen to agree with him when it comes to his writing.

    When he’s got all the time and all the pages that he requires of himself to tell the story he wants to tell, and is limited only by his imagination, I think the word ‘gratuitous’ is non-applicable.

    But when it comes to film or television, and certainly in the cases where one is adapting an established text for one of those mediums, and one has a set budget and time constraints to work within, ‘gratuitous’ as a criticism becomes much fairer. In this context, plot becomes ever more important simply because television and film do not allow the viewer the luxury of simply living and breathing in a created world for as much time as he wishes to take. Were such scenes to be a staple of the television show, I would absolutely find GRRM’s “food porn” to be less about engaging my senses than about taking time away from more important (as well as generally more interesting) plot points.

  409. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Interviewer: There was a fair amount of explicit sex in the series and some fans of the books were taken aback.

    “One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex. We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that’s based on medieval history. They didn’t have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books. But then when you go to film it you run into people going crazy about child pornography and there’s actual laws about how you can’t depict a 13 year old having sex even if you have an 18 year old acting the part — it’s illegal in the United Kingdom. So we ended up with a 22 year old portraying an 18 year old, instead of an 18 year old portraying a 13 year old. If we decided to lose the sex we could have kept the original ages. And once you change the age of one character you have to change the ages of all the characters, and change the date of the war [that dethroned the Mad King]. The fact we made all these changes indicates how important we thought sex was.”
    George RR Martin

    It all just comes down to personal preferences on this matter. Some people want more sex, some less, and some none. It’s impossible to please everyone. I can understand people wanting the show to match their own desires, as I do myself, but it’s really nothing to get too worked up about when they don’t, in my opinion. GRRM wanted to have sex and nudity in the show and that’s why they went to HBO. But sex and nudity is hardly ever necessary for the plot and so they are always going to hear complaints about their being too much of it.

  410. sedeyus
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor: I find it odd that you seem to think that passive observers should have an equal say in an artist’s work as the artist themselves. You call this entitlement. This whole argument that you make is completely baffling. Entitlement comes into play when someone thinks that they deserve to have everything cater to their desires and sensibilities, which is on full display by nearly every woman in this thread. It is not the producer’s responsibility nor is it GRRM’s responsibility to cater to every single demographic that they can think of. Art that attempts to do such things is inevitably watered-down, substandard crap. Is the show racist because it doesn’t have any Asian actors in it? Does the lack of Asian actors mean that the show does not appeal to Asians?

    You keep trying to connect the books and the tv show as one and the same and they’re not. GRRM didn’t write the books to appeal to a strictly male audience and has talked about how proud he is to have such a large female audience. It is fair of D&D, not GRRM, to now try and turn the series into a male-dominated series?

    I brought up the entitlement issue because it’s a belief that a person is deserving of SPECIAL privileges bascially just, ‘because’. I don’t see any female posters saying no female nudity, only male nudity. I see female posters asking for EQUAL treatment when it comes to fanservice.

    Dogmayor: The accusation that this appeal to men is sexist is made repeatedly in this thread, if you don’t care to find it I’m sure you won’t care that I’ve pointed it out to you. And men controlling the discussion on sexuality? Look what you have in this thread, women complaining and men backing them up, as you see time and time again. This is men controlling the conversation?

    You are completely making this up. As I said before I’ve checked your posts and the posts you’re responding to, I have not seen one person saying that appealing men is sexist, just that on a show that has an equally large female fanbase choosing to be disproportionate when it comes to fanservice is unfair. If I’m wrong, show me. Show me one post where someone is saying that appealing to men is sexist.

    And I’m sorrying but one thread is not representative of society when it comes how media treats men and women. I say men control the conversation of how sexuality is portrayed because most executive producers in entertainment and news are men. It’s not even close.

  411. T
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Totally with y’all other ladies on the “more male nudity” thing.
    Dan, do you realize how ridiculous it sounds when you tell a bunch of women, who are saying that they would like some male nudity, that women don’t want male nudity? I think we have a better understanding of this issue than you do. I don’t care who wants it more, you guys have more than your fair share already. The fact that it is missing from TV/movies/porn/etc just proves how SAD it is, not that we’re not interested.

    The “play with her ass” scene was terrible, not just because it was gratuitous, but because it was distracting. I watched it with a bunch of dudes, and none of them had a clue what Littlefinger was talking about afterwards. It was super awkward too of course, but that happens. Ugh, and the jizz-wiping bit. I just felt bad for the actress. The rest of the sex/nudity scenes were better though, and seemed to be in there to serve a purpose.

    I think that how you deal with violence is more of a concern than the violence itself. Showing the effects of violence (physically, socially) like GoT does and having it happen to characters that you’re emotionally invested in makes it seem a lot less glamorous, and more horrifying.

  412. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    T,

    Dan, do you realize how ridiculous it sounds when you tell a bunch of women, who are saying that they would like some male nudity, that women don’t want male nudity?

    T, do you realize how ridiculous it sounds when you say that I’m telling a bunch of women that they don’t want male nudity? Not only do I not believe that, but I have stated numerous times on this very post that I find that idea absurd and I can’t fathom why anyone would think females don’t want male nudity. People like you make it very difficult for me to be polite.

    Look, if you don’t understand what my argument is that is fine, but there is no need for you to go making up arguments for me that I would never make myself. That is what I find to be ridiculous.

  413. DH87
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk: then why is it inconceivable that the whore serving Bronn would be naked as well? Did it take anything away from the Bronn vs Hound showdown?

    Well, for one thing, the whore serving Bronn strips in from of him—and us—rather than walking through the scene naked upstage, or appearing half-nude at the beginning of his monologue without disrobing further, or innumerable other natural, organic, even static, ways Spartacus often (not always, often) presents male or female non-voyeuristic nudity

  414. tysnow
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Letter to Dave and Dan,

    I have a niece who watches both GoT and TB with two other female friends, they are 18-23 and all three are upset that GoT shows blatant female nudity but not male (except Theon). They feel that the creators are baised towards female nudity, and are shorted that TB will showcase it but not GoT . Furthermore they informed me of wanting to see Kit and NCW naked, my 50 year old aunt wants to see Ian in full Michealangelo glory as well. It is my belief that your response that viewers don’t want to see naked men is without merit and lacks proper research and study of the basic HBO viewer, especially those of the fairer sex.
    Please reconsider your stance on this subject, remember it goes both ways, if the shows viewers are 50/50 or even 60/40, you need to fulfill the needs of both demographics.

    Love the show,

    J (Tysnow) B

  415. WildSeed
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Kalice,

    I see your point Kalice as I am a avid fan of both TB and GoT. However I have
    also read the books from both and ascertain the writers perspective including
    the historical/political periods (as such having impact or influence of the
    characters they name ). True Blood with it’s modern day setting ( and to note
    nothing like the books ) exhibit numerous sex scenes for the sake of being
    provocative. Many critics refer to TB as the Vampire Porn show featuring
    Bill and Sookie or the Bill and Sookie Show’, not remotely similar to the books.
    GoT shows nudity and scantily clad individuals as it depicts the custom of that
    historical period.There it included the prevailing male dominance as well,
    uncensored. I believe GoT resembles the books well, albeit the sex sadist scene
    including Joffrey and another with Talisa w/ Robb were unnecessary. Gratuitous
    sex to garner viewership is a cheap trick, nudity reflecting the historical -political
    period a different discussion entirely.

  416. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Since I keep getting accused of saying that women wouldn’t want to see men naked I’m going to take the time to demonstrate how out of touch with reality that statement is by quoting some of my own statements on this very post.

    That doesn’t mean I believe women don’t enjoy male nudity at all.

    Ok, one last time. I fully understand that women like men’s bodies.

    Alright, I’ll try this one more time since I am a glutton for punishment. I fully understand that women like sex. I understand that women like to look at men naked. I understand that there are women on here calling for more male nudity. I understand that some women are just as depraved as the most depraved man. Ok, are we clear on that?

    The market doesn’t assume women don’t want this kind of thing. Otherwise, there would be no male nudity. What the market assumes, and I think correctly, is that they can make more catering towards men than women when it comes to this. People keep confusing this point.

    What are you talking about? Did you even read what I’ve written above. How could I possibly make it any more clear that I understand women are attracted to the male body? I mean who the hell doesn’t understand this?

    I also never said women don’t want to see a bit of eye-candy in programs they do pay for and watch. In fact, I’ve acknowledged numerous times that I fully understand that women like this kind of thing.

    I could keep going but I hope this can at least settle this nonsense accusation that people keep ignorantly charging me with.

  417. Meg
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Dan: The entertainment industry is not in the business of being egalitarians, they are in the business of making money for their products. Yes, I’m sure women would like to see more material that is geared to titillate females but that doesn’t mean that it is more profitable for HBO or other networks to do that. What if by producing more material to titillate women in lieu of focusing on titillating men ends up losing them money on net? It is not their responsibility to make things equal. It’s their responsibility to be as profitable as possible.

    I don’t understand why equality can’t be profitable if, as you claimed earlier, men aren’t bothered by it. But now you’re arguing that they could lose money if they focus on women? This sounds very zero-sum. They could also lose money making GoT into a show geared toward men. There are many ways to fuck up in such a big production, but showing a little eye candy for the women isn’t one of them. Also, please clarify before I say anything futher: are you saying the female fan base doesn’t matter to the show’s success and profitability?

  418. WildSeed
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Ah yeah, that dopey guy’s little johnson flopping around after the horse. That. Was. Hawt.;-)

    I wasn’t meant to be HOT, it was a depiction of humility. That man became an example
    of a man who lost everything. The punishment was harsh and historically accurate.

  419. Macha
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Just wanted to say you’re slowly becoming one of my favourite commentators on this site, and that has nothing to do with the fact that I agree with you on most points, but with how you conducted yourself during this (sometimes hilarious, but very interesting) debate. Hat’s off to you, sir! It’s people like you that make this place truly interesting.

  420. andrea
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Dan: Alright, I’ll try this one more time since I am a glutton for punishment.

    I kept thinking about this phrase all the time since I last wrote in this thread ;)

  421. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    First, let me thank you for not accusing me of a belief before you asked me if I actually hold that belief.

    I don’t understand why equality can’t be profitable if, as you claimed earlier, men aren’t bothered by it. But now you’re arguing that they could lose money if they focus on women? This sounds very zero-sum.

    Sometimes it can be, sometimes it’s not. SATC clearly catered towards women and I think it would have been less profitable for them to try to equally appeal to both men and women’s desires in that case. For GoT, Pyrrhus brought up a good point when he said “The relevant viewers of course are not the book readers who are going to watch no matter what (us). Rather, its the marginal viewers: horny teenagers actively seeking out nudity, and prudish 60 year-olds who may tune out if they see the wrong kind (for example).” So maybe the show is able to attract more viewers who would not normally watch a show like this by providing more female nudity. Maybe if they had less female nudity, more male nudity, etc. the show would draw less of these type of viewers than they do now. They might draw more people from one group but lose more from another by making these kind of changes. Maybe the male actors just don’t want to be filmed nude and the directors are respecting their wishes. Without being on the inside it is impossible for me to answer how one specific show is determining these matters. But for the broader market we can use basic economic analysis to determine supply and demand issues like this.

    Also, please clarify before I say anything futher: are you saying the female fan base doesn’t matter to the show’s success and profitability?

    Not at all and I don’t think the show runners feel this way either. They clearly try to cater to women’s sexual desires on the show. They just don’t do it as much as some women would like. Plus, there are more bad ass female characters on this show than I can ever remember seeing in a show of this nature. I don’t think the show is only trying to cater towards men and I think it would be a mistake if they did. As for the male nudity, maybe if a lot of female viewers decide to stop watching the show because they aren’t getting as much of it as they would like then D&D will decide they need to make adjustments.

  422. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Macha,

    Thank you for the kind words and I would like to say the feeling is mutual. I really love coming to this site and discussing the many varied topics that get brought up. Most of the people who comment here are fantastic.

  423. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    andrea,

    I think I need to remove the phrase “one last time” from my vocabulary. I know full well I’m not going to be able to resist.

  424. andrea
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    I know that too!!! You do like debates. Almost envy you.

  425. sijjvra
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    Dan – are you familiar with “straw man”? Because that seems to be the only type of argument you can make.

  426. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    Meg I think it would be in good form to answer Dan’s constant plea that his words are being twisted and that he is being judged for being something he is not. He obviously feels that several people on this board think less of him. Is that the case or is it more of a reaction to his devil’s advocacy?

    Personally I think Dan is arguing from an economic perspective but there is a certain sense of generalization in his argument, as if he is trying to be detached but there is something in his words that sort of suggests otherwise. A revealing subtext or an error in syntax?

  427. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    sijjvra,

    Geez lay off him will you? His words are obviously being misconstrued. If he actually meant them why would be trying to defend himself. If he actually believed them he would only become more arrogant with every post.

  428. Dan
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    sijjvra,

    A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    Would you care to show one of my responses where I did this to someone? If I am guilty of the charge I would gladly retract my statement and apologize to the person who I did this to. There must be numerous examples on here that I am missing since this is the only type of argument that I am capable of making. I always try to understand the position of a person I’m debating because I find it helps me to strengthen and improve the knowledge of my own position and even sometimes forces me to change my initial opinion. I look forward to you helping me to improve myself by showing me all the times I have used this fallacy.

  429. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: I wasn’t meant to be HOT, it was a depiction of humility. That man became an example
    of a man who lost everything. The punishment was harsh and historically accurate.

    Sarcasm, my friend, I was commenting on the fact that including that scene as an example of male nudity in this discussion was pretty funny considering there was absolutely nothing titillating about that scene nor was there supposed to be.

  430. stanvosftw
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Pyrrhus: I think you may misunderstand the appeal of evolutionary reasoning. There’s nothing inherently comforting about evolutionary explanations, they just provide us a plausible explanation for how things might be, that fits with our best understanding of the way things in fact work. Evolution is our best explanation for the existence of life in all of its different and changing forms, most consistent with the evidence available to us. There are significant differences between this and what is generally thought of as religion.

    Sure every theory offers the comfort of potential understanding, and any given evolutionary explanation might be incorrect, incomplete, or superfluous. That’s hardly any reason not to consider plausible explanations for why things work the way they do.

    Evolutionary Psychology arguments like the ones being tossed around in this thread are not “Evolutionary Reasoning” and anyone who would say it is, does not really understand the science of evolution. Talk to any legit evolutionary biologist and they will either laugh their heads off or chew you out.

    It’s nothing more than the usual: patriarchal bullshit trying to justify its own existence.

    What’s frustrating is this is done in IMO exactly the same way that the religious right uses religion, and for the exact same backwards reasons. Evolutionary Psychology is pseudoscience, pure and simple. Maybe one day it’ll be a real science. I’m not holding my breath.

  431. Gatorfisch
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: I wasn’t meant to be HOT, it was a depiction of humility. That man became an example
    of a man who lost everything. The punishment was harsh and historically accurate.

    He was being sarcastic….yes, sarcastic, not fascetious.

  432. stanvosftw
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Remaal: Well, if they are fans, they certainly didn’t learn anything from it. That is a brilliant scene, and nothing GOT has offered so far in terms of expositional scenes, be they sexual or not, even comes close to the quality of the Deadwood scene you linked, imho.

    Note there was no nudity in that scene at all. And for 90% of the time, the camera was in tight focus on Swearengen, never once allowing our attention to be diverted from his soliloquy, the context in which it was delivered merely added to the power of the information, and psychological insight, he was relaying.

    1000 times yes.

    I just watched Deadwood, Season 1.

    And the use of sex in that show was fucking brilliant. The appeal of the scenes to various audiences was balanced, mostly it was plot-forward, and most of it was clearly not for titillation.

    Yes, when they are in the brothel there’s a boob or two in the background (or you see that one guy with the 3 girls with big boobs fetish), but typically the sex and romance scenes had almost no nudity, even when they depicted sex in an obvious way.

    I’m not the hugest fan of Sweringen’s but I understand the purpose of him getting a blowjob while he’s plotting shit. It’s about power. It makes sense for his character.

    Meanwhile there is actual ROMANCE in the show. This IMO is what GoT has consistently failed to do. Yes, I know, GRRM doesn’t do romance in exactly the classic swooning 19th century manner, but when they have attempted it in GoT they have IMO utterly failed.

    I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. They need a woman in the exec producer position. If they have her, I’ll be happy for them to keep the “I’m the perv in the audience” guy too.

  433. Vince
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    Coltaine777,

    I doubt it, the tone of the interview was light hearted, plus it’s all probably true. They can hardly hold it against him for being honest and saying it how it is.. not very Hollywood I know.

  434. Drfunk
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Well, for one thing, the whore serving Bronn strips in from of him—and us—rather than walking through the scene naked upstage, or appearing half-nude at the beginning of his monologue without disrobing further, or innumerable other natural, organic, even static, ways Spartacus often (not always, often)presents male or female non-voyeuristic nudity

    Wow, so by your logic if the whore character would have been completely naked at the start of that shot this wouldn’t be an issue? So then the act of disrobing is what made the shot in poor taste resulting in all these comments? Are you serious?

    innumerable other natural, organic, even static, ways Spartacus often (not always, often)presents male or female non-voyeuristic nudity

    This made me laugh even more. Clearly, I’m missing something that makes Spartacus such an artistic show and not the filthy trash it really is. That show belongs in the SPIKE network (or w/e they call themselves nowadays). It’s clearly a roided version of an Adam Friedberg show.

    There could be a case made that non necessary nudity is distracting. If you are going with that though, then you should be crucifying ALL of those shows and not singling out GoT. There are times I do feel some shots were really not needed (Ros in the turnip cart brings to mind). That was about as gratuitous you can get. The scene LF wiping the whore at the end may have been in very poor taste but it was still inside a freaking whorehouse which by extension became a valid shot. Slaves in Spartacus paraded naked due to their station is also a clear pandering to the masses but still within the context of the show.

    If you don’t like nudity then come out and say it. Don’t put double standards or try to justify one but not another.

  435. Pyrrhus
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    stanvosftw: Evolutionary Psychology arguments like the ones being tossed around in this thread are not “Evolutionary Reasoning” and anyone who would say it is,does not really understand the science of evolution.Talk to any legit evolutionary biologist and they will either laugh their heads off or chew you out.

    It’s nothing more than the usual: patriarchal bullshit trying to justify its own existence.

    What’s frustrating is this is done in IMO exactly the same way that the religious right uses religion, and for the exact same backwards reasons.Evolutionary Psychology is pseudoscience, pure and simple.Maybe one day it’ll be a real science.I’m not holding my breath.

    Well, agree to disagree I guess. I imagine most evolutionary psychologists are more polite than you are suggesting, and as I have tried to explain here, the issue isn’t proof. I understand that this may be a bit esoteric though.

  436. Shadowcat85
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Kalice,

    I agree with this 100%

  437. DH87
    Posted June 3, 2012 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk: So then the act of disrobing is what made the shot in poor taste resulting in all these comments? Are you serious?

    I had a long snarky answer that I’ve just deleted after watching the last episode. The nudity in Ep 10 was fine; the nudity in Ep 9 wasn’t. If we can’t see the difference, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  438. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Steve Hugh Westenra:
    Dan,

    I’m pretty sure gay male pornstars make more than female pornstars (or straight male pornstars)

    Lol no

  439. Sijjvra
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Dan – multiple people have pointed out to you where your arguments were false, ignorant or just plain wrong. But you continue to argue them anyway without anything to back them up other than “but I still know better”.

    So yeah, you are straw-manning it and yeah I do know what the term means. Most of your arguments here are pretty much the definition of it. Most of your assumptions and arguments are blatant generalizations, both against men -and- women (there are some men with a LOWER sex drive than some women, did you know that? So your argument of the male libido always being oh-so-strong that a woman can’t comprehend it is just silly), but you show no sign of admitting that you are, in fact, just flat out wrong on many points.

    So Dan, go on believing what you want, but don’t expect most women to respect you for such a caveman approach to how you view gender roles in modern society. Have fun kiddo.

  440. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Sijjvra,

    Dan – multiple people have pointed out to you where your arguments were false, ignorant or just plain wrong. But you continue to argue them anyway without anything to back them up other than “but I still know better”.

    That is inaccurate. I have presented evidence to back up my claims. For example, I have twice linked to an article on WebMD that discussed numerous studies that concur with my proposition. You are more than welcome to disagree with me and those studies, and I would willingly look at any evidence you present to contradict those studies, but I have not once just said “but I still know better” to support my position.

    Yet, even if what you said above were true it would not be a straw man argument. If I were indeed guilty of you using the kind of argumentation you suggest then you could say I was being stubborn or pig headed but that is very different than using the straw man fallacy. An example of this type of fallacy would be when people have suggested that I have said that women do not like to see naked men. This is a straw man argument because it creates the illusion of having refuted a proposition I have made by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

    Still, since I abhor the use of this particular fallacy I would like to offer, yet again, to retract and apologize for any straw man argument I may have used. I have been unable to find any such occasion of me doing this though, so I request that you please point to at least one example and allow me to do the right thing by the people I have offended by the idiotic use of this type of argument. If you are not able to present any of my comments that are guilty of what you say I do all the time then I would expect an apology. I would think that is a fair deal. Yet, if you do not show me where I have done this, or apologize if you can’t find a statement of mine doing this, then I must assume you either don’t understand the term or are just content with making shit up.

    (there are some men with a LOWER sex drive than some women, did you know that?

    Yes, I did know that. I would never suggest otherwise. I would even say that I believe my girlfriend has a higher sex drive than I do. I feel I have a healthy sex drive but she still manages to wear me out nonetheless. Actually, this is one of the things I really like about her and think it has helped in keeping us together these past ten years. But I would like to join you in refuting any ignorant person who believes such nonsense. Sadly, I have never met anyone ignorant enough to believe that all men have higher sex drives than all women so I must rely on you to point out these imbeciles.

    you show no sign of admitting that you are, in fact, just flat out wrong on many points.

    I would agree with that. But since I believe I am right it would seem weird to admit I am wrong. This would seem to be very curious behavior for someone to do. Do you know a lot of people who believe they are right but admit they are wrong?

    So Dan, go on believing what you want, but don’t expect most women to respect you for such a caveman approach to how you view gender roles in modern society. Have fun kiddo

    .

    Thank you, I will go on believing what I believe to be true and I will not hold it against women who do not respect me for my beliefs. Hopefully, the many intelligent and lovely women that come to this site will understand the difference between believing one sex, on average, has a higher sex drive and believing women should stick to a particular gender role. While I hold the former to be accurate, I hold the latter to be ignorant.

  441. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    I see Kyle Buchanan of Vulture.com has picked up this interview and added his own arch comments:
    http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-nudity-nude-scenes.html?imw=Y

  1. [...] “Blackwater,” director Neil Marshall on the nudity in GAME OF THRONES This entry was posted in Podcasts, Television. Bookmark the permalink. ← EPISODE 52: [...]

  2. [...] os executivos da HBO parecem não só não tem problemas com cenas de nudez como acabam encorajando os diretores a fazer isso. Notícias , Barbarella, Dino de Laurentiis, Ficção Científica, TV Facebookfacebook [...]

  3. [...] book instead of making them gendered. They could let directors shoot things respectfully instead of basically ordering them to include more nudity. They could avoid being mocked and be taken more seriously. They could save money on paying a [...]


  • Recent Comments

  • Archives

    • 2014 (752)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •