Season two finale tops 4mil viewers, sets new series high!
By Winter Is Coming on in News.

We finally broke 4 million! After weeks of hovering just under the 4 million viewers mark for the initial airing, Game of Thrones finally broke through in a big way. James Hibberd reports that last night’s season finale attracted 4.2 million viewers for the initial airing and 5.1 million total!

In related news, Hibberd also reported last night that showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have signed on for two more seasons, meaning they are under contract up through season four, provided HBO orders a season four (which, at this point, they would be crazy not to do).

UPDATE: Detailed numbers from TVbythenumbers are in. First airing 4.202 million and 2.2 demo, second 0.910 million, for a 5.112 total. Again, only NBA playoffs could top that on cable.

Winter Is Coming: Nice! Looks like that dip last week was simply due to the holiday and not any indication of a downward trend. Cannot wait to see what the numbers look like for the season three premiere.


422 Comments

  1. Sandy
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    GET IN!

  2. markazus
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Sweet! Watch out True Blood.

  3. Robert Morris
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    kick ass

  4. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Last year the season finale broke 3 mil. This year – 4 mil. Next year we take 5 mil.
    It is known.

  5. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Victory!

  6. Conor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Awesomesauce! I love this show!

  7. Wrath of the Gods
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Nicee, early numbers this week?

    Only 10 months to go…

  8. ...
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Great!

  9. House Minor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    It is known…

  10. Khal Dorko
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    10 months til season 3! 9 months til season 2 DVD. Rereading the books for the umpteenth time to fill the void! :)

    Great to see the uptick!

  11. DoubleA012
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Woooo! They should just green light a 3th and 5th and sixth and seventh and eighth season right now….agree? Lol

  12. Khal Dorko
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    DoubleA012,

    It is a good sign that they re-signed D&D to 2 seasons. Makes a season 4 a no brainer

  13. Michelle
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Bon Temps? Westeros is coming!

  14. João Amaral
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    tottaly offtopic but didn’t know if people would see it on the right aricle.

    Mads Mikkelsen is out of the picture as a possibility as Mance. he will be Hannibal Lector on the new NBC show. (this type of character on a network will probably be a bust, its sad)
    http://tvline.com/2012/06/04/hannibal-mads-mikkelsen-nbc/

  15. Default King
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    This is all because of Ros!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

  16. Mormegil
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Great News

  17. Connie
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    This is great news. It’s always easier to make plans for a successful show – more budget, more support from HBO, more creative control. Can’t wait to see how D&D handle the new few books. I’m really looking forward to Dance and meeting ‘Rollo’. A nice relaxing boat ride, am I right?

  18. dizzy_34
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Ya see, nothing to worry about. Now on to “off season” Thrones news, can’t wait.

  19. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    That’s very impressive, considering the juggernaut that was the East Conference Finals on Sunday night. Excellent news.

  20. JonathanL
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    I admit I was concerned that TV viewers would be displeased with the slow burn of a season and tuned out before Blackwater. Super excited to see how wrong I was. Valar dohaeris!

  21. Mimsy
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Wasn’t expecting these numbers. Great job D&D. PPL are gonna expect some Whitewalker activity. Book 3 is to die for!

  22. Ed
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Hahahahahahahaaa!!! Ros: “Savior of the Series”

    Default King:
    This is all because of Ros!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

  23. Jane
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    ARG drop D&D already, they are butchering an amazing book series.

  24. Jane
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Default King,

    One minute of screen time of Ros is one too many.

  25. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    More precisely, Ros’ juggs. Took way to long for an appearance. Would have broke 4 mil weeks ago. HBO needs to market those cannons in the Episode Previews.

    Default King:
    This is all because of Ros!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

  26. Jdp13
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Great news! I suspect they’ll be an uptick for Season 3 although I suspect not as big a jump from season 1 to 2.

  27. furrever
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Awesome!!

  28. Remaal
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Well, congratulations everyone!!

    Can we all just relax now? Please. :D

  29. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Jane:
    ARG drop D&D already, they are butchering an amazing book series.

    Quit comparing the two. This is not the books. It isn’t as good as the books, it never will be. And that is okay. What happens in the show does not alter the books in any way.

  30. Mike Chair
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    **doing naked happy dance**

    (with office door closed and locked, of course)

  31. Cirothecarius
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Now that D&D have signed for another two seasons I think this makes continuity and forward planning a lot easier. I know that season 4 is more likely, although not guaranteed as of yet, but if they had known a season 3 was coming a year ago I’m sure Ramsay, the Reeds, Edmure and others that have been held back would have made an appearance already. Actors would see a part in the show as a more attractive proposition if multiple seasons are on offer more than just the current season and David and Dan can plan longterm rather than a year at a time.

  32. Omar Brown
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Thank the seven!

  33. Marko
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    And that’s probably just U.S…?

  34. John
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Marko,

    That is just the U.S. Marko.

  35. Jon Snow's Bastard
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Jane: ARG drop D&D already, they are butchering an amazing book series.

    If by “butcher,” you mean “creating critically-acclaimed television that has elevated fantasy-storytelling into the mainstream while inspiring millions of people to buy and read ASoIaF who ordinarily would have walked right past that shelf in the bookstore” then yeah, they’re butchering it.

    Fuck those guys.

  36. Maxwell James
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Well, so much for the “awesomest episode ever will drive away viewers” line of complaint.

  37. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    John:
    Marko,

    That is just the U.S. Marko.

    And just the two showings on Sunday.

  38. Unsullied
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Jon Snow’s Bastard: If by “butcher,” you mean “creating critically-acclaimed television that has elevated fantasy-storytelling into the mainstream while inspiring millions of people to buy and read ASoIaF who ordinarily would have walked right past that shelf in the bookstore” then yeah, they’re butchering it.

    Fuck those guys.

    Yeah total tools. How dare they infuse so much money into this franchise that it might actually make GRRM finish the next book in less than 6 years! Dude should be able to tack on 2 years with each successive book.

  39. From Chaos
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    And the people that watched it LOVED the finale, the twitter and Facebook posts were all extremely positive. The only place where people complained about it were here and Westeros as usual.

    Amazing job D&D

  40. Default King
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Jane:
    ARG drop D&D already, they are butchering an amazing book series.

    Oh totally. And obviously everyone feels the same way since no one’s even watching the show anyway, right?

  41. Macha
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Jon Snow’s Bastard: If by “butcher,” you mean “creating critically-acclaimed television that has elevated fantasy-storytelling into the mainstream while inspiring millions of people to buy and read ASoIaF who ordinarily would have walked right past that shelf in the bookstore” then yeah, they’re butchering it.

    Fuck those guys.

    THIS.
    Ugh, enough already. Must we have this gratuitous bitchin in every single damn thread?
    Especially one that brings such good news. Whoa, I really wasn’t expecting this. Fantastic way to end a fantastic season (that’s my view and I’m sticking to it). Collective pat on the back, everyone!

  42. John W
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    That’s good news.

    I may not have been completely happy with the finale but overall I still love the show.

  43. Horatio
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    …we?

  44. mrbrando62
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    There is an article out today from Forbes.com that said they expect Season 3 to begin in February.

  45. sjwenings
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Not surprised, but great to get a confirmation of the shows continued high numbers after last sundays dip.

    I don’t really expect any great rise for season 3. Wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t rise at all, or even sunk slightly. But it wouldn’t really matter in any significant way anyway.

    People might not love all the decisions for the story, but this we can never really be guaranteed anyway. What seems a guarantee is exellent actors, sets and CGI. Season 2 was really impressive on those fronts – and for the very most part, the writing too – and considering the storymaterial for season 3, we can expect TV-history to be made – at least in terms of sheer quality. …ok IMO, then.

  46. Hexonx
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Permalink
  47. LordStarkington
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Excellent (and further proof that any hand-wringing about ratings last week was silly)

  48. Default King
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Hexonx,

    I’m addicted, it’s a disease. Help me.

  49. SillyMammo
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Nicely done HBO!! I can’t believe one more Twitter Round-up and then its back to rumors, speculations and casting annoucements for the next 10 months. >Sigh!<

  50. Tom Hilton
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Cannot wait to see what the numbers look like for the season three premiere.

    I can wait for that. It’s the premiere itself I can’t wait to see.
    ;-)

  51. dizzy_34
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo: its back to rumors, speculations and casting annoucements for the next 10 months. >Sigh!<

    ie: the best time to be here ;)

  52. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    I’m hoping that the premier of season 3 can bring in 4.5 million viewers on the first airing. If they can stay above 4 million all of next season and top 4.5 million for the finale it will be a great success. By the time next season starts I expect the total viewership of season 2 to come close to topping 11 million per episode. And this doesn’t include international viewers or fans who only wait to buy the DVD/BR’s. This may be the most popular TV show in the world. It is certainly in the top 5.

  53. Anvil
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Jon Snow’s Bastard: If by “butcher,” you mean “creating critically-acclaimed television that has elevated fantasy-storytelling into the mainstream while inspiring millions of people to buy and read ASoIaF who ordinarily would have walked right past that shelf in the bookstore” then yeah, they’re butchering it.

    Fuck those guys.

    Well, i guess the fans of Charlaine Harris’ Sookie Stackhouse novels said something similar some time ago. But we all know how well that played out.

    Let the complainers complain and the fans praise the show, but don’t insult each other.

    Woohoo, more than 4. mil. Thx to Blackwater.

  54. young stark
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    just got somebody else hooked on the show like i said b4 just doing my part …..king of north!!!!!!!

  55. Josh
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Jon Snow’s Bastard: If by “butcher,” you mean “creating critically-acclaimed television that has elevated fantasy-storytelling into the mainstream while inspiring millions of people to buy and read ASoIaF who ordinarily would have walked right past that shelf in the bookstore” then yeah, they’re butchering it.

    Fuck those guys.

    They must be stopped!!! What next, a well deserved Emmy win? When will it end!

  56. Default King
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    Fun! To help everyone practice, here’s a basic script to follow for all casting thread comments:

    “He/she is too/insufficiently tall/short/fat/skinny/ugly/pretty/American/green/weird/normal and the show is ruined forever. [Ad-lib hyperbole].” (All caps optional.)

    I kid, I kid.

  57. young stark
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    best shit on tv no doubt bout it….king of the north!!!!!

  58. House Snow
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    I think thats pretty impressive considering its biggest competition NBA basketball killde it too getting a 7.9 share. I suspect the total number is going to be pretty high.

  59. Siofor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Nobody liked Brienne – and long third death? She nailed the scene.

  60. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    OMG! So we get season 3 and 4 for sure! Nice… Only one more news break would be needed to make all my GoTs dreams come true… 12 episodes per season!

  61. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Honestly this is the best news ever!

    Thanks for the best Xmass/Birthday present I could ever ask for HBO!!!

    Go D&D you did it! You will for sure get to bring us the RW now!

  62. Default King
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    That really would be great. Though with 2 seasons for ASOS, hopefully there will be a little more breathing room for the story next year. Parts of this season felt so hurried.

  63. Ivan Popić
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Great news. Before this show I never cared about ratings but now I nervously expect them.

  64. Langkard
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Siofor:
    Nobody liked Brienne – and long third death? She nailed the scene.

    I liked it. She gave 2 quick deaths and just deserts to the one who said it.

  65. DH87
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Anvil: Well, i guess the fans of Charlaine Harris’ Sookie Stackhouse novels said something similar some time ago. But we all know how well that played out.

    Let the complainers complain and the fans praise the show, but don’t insult each other.

    The more important fact in that particular debacle was that the TB showrunner publicly said he never listened to fans of either the original material or of his adapted shows; he’d done it once and never again, so he said, and stayed resolutely tone-deaf to all criticism, well-meant or otherwise, until his departure at the end of a season that stunk the place up.

    It remains to be seen whether D&D (who last I heard still walked the ground as mortal men and therefore are capable of making mistakes as well as great decisions) reevaluate any of the blow-back, good and bad, coming from fandom and critics alike over the short “off” season.

    They are breaking eps right now for S3 as they continue to cast. There’s no shame in admitting some things worked better than others, and the fact that Bryan C. and the actors acknowledge they are reading and reacting to the fandom is a harbinger of good things. I hope D&D can be honest with themselves in the midst of the acclaim and look at the show for the long haul: assess their strengths, admit to weaknesses and fix them, and they will have a show for the history books.

    You need only look at the hour of Mad Men that followed GOT on Sunday to see how a showrunner can stay at the top of his game while still adapting to his actors’ evolving skills and his audience’s expectations. Like D&D, Weiner is dealing with juvenile actors, including historical, cultural, and literary references by the dozens, orchestrating sex and death scenes, presenting main characters as dark as any GRRM has imagined…… and doing it year after year without continuity problems, plot holes, or gratuitous nudity. It can be done.

  66. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Ivan Popić,

    I didn’t know anything about how ratings work and all that until this show… We all care so much and want to see it continue all us fans did our research… It was a fun journey!

  67. Ivan Jurić
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    take that complainers !!!

  68. Macha
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: I liked it.She gave 2 quick deaths and just deserts to the one who said it.

    Seconded. Dear God, she’s even better in the show. Gwendoline Christie does a fantastic job. Then again I can’t help but love all of Jaime & Brienne’s scenes together. Best road trip evah! :)

  69. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    So I just read the article. I guess season 4 isn’t guaranteed… I bet there is some verbiage in there in regards to if the ratings fall off a cliff…

    Another thing that was said that will make all you ladies happy with the whole;

    “JUST SHOW ME THE COCK PLEASE”

    Is this;

    Weiss: “We need more guy junk on the show. Fair and balanced.”

    Haha… Your cock scenes will be arriving in season 3. Just hold out, wait for it, wait for it… Lol

  70. Tero Kuittinen
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    The kid on Mad Men last night was so wooden it made me appreciate the fact that GoT got all the juvenile roles right. From Arya to Tommen, all of the minors are at least OK and most of them are great. Jon may be the only role in the whole show that may have been miscast. But it’s too early to tell – he’s been so underwritten.

  71. Mike
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Jane,

    You make me l-o-l. Really, you do.

  72. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Macha: Seconded. Dear God, she’s even better in the show. Gwendoline Christie does a fantastic job. Then again I can’t help but love all of Jaime & Brienne’s scenes together. Best road trip evah! :)

    I feel people hated HoTU so much that it didn’t leave much room to praise the rest of the episode. She absolutely nailed it again, and it was made even clearer that NCW and Gwendoline have crazy chemistry, I can’t wait for season 3!

  73. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Linda from Westeros.org went ahead and created a thread in the forum for the season two finale about how this show is not truly an adaptation anymore, but something akin to a fan-fic because the House of the Undying contained no prophecies. It is utterly hilarious, but also kind of sad that some people can be such miserable cunts. Regardless, I highly doubt what we saw of Quaithe will be all that we see of her, and I definitely understand why they decided not to include her or the prophecies in the HotU sequence. Why drop a load of nearly non-sensical bricks on the audiences’ heads when it can be spread out and not totally confuse the audience? Anyway, that’s the last time I visit that site, but I recommend checking out the thread if anyone needs a good laugh.

  74. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    DH87: The more important fact in that particular debacle was that the TB showrunner publicly said he never listened to fans of either the original material or of his adapted shows; he’d done it once and never again, so he said, and stayed resolutely tone-deaf to all criticism, well-meant or otherwise, until his departure at the end of a season that stunk the place up.

    It remains to be seen whether D&D (who last I heard still walked the ground as mortal men and therefore are capable of making mistakes as well as great decisions) reevaluate any of the blow-back, good and bad, coming from fandom and critics alike over the short “off” season.

    They are breaking eps right now for S3 as they continue to cast. There’s no shame in admitting some things worked better than others, and the fact that Bryan C. and the actors acknowledge they are reading and reacting to the fandom is a harbinger of good things. I hope D&D can be honest with themselves in the midst of the acclaim and look at the show for the long haul: assesstheir strengths, admit to weaknesses and fix them, and they will have a show for the history books.

    You need only look at the hour of Mad Men that followed GOT on Sunday to see how a showrunner can stay at the top of his game while still adapting to his actors’ evolving skills and his audience’s expectations. Like D&D, Weiner is dealing with juvenile actors, including historical, cultural, and literary references by the dozens, orchestrating sex and death scenes, presenting main characters as dark as any GRRM has imagined…… and doing it year after year without continuity problems, plot holes, or gratuitous nudity. It can be done.

    Cogman certainly seems like a guy open to improvement and I think there’s a good chance D&D are as well.

    That said, I expect they will take feedback from internal sources and some critics. I think there’s good feedback on flow/pacing and some of the content. I hope they understand the general feeling of wanting fidelity to the books (and it’s been fidelity compared to where other things have gone).

    But they aren’t going to read message boards. You’re a writer — taking too much feedback is more dangerous than taking none.

    And there’s just so much crap feedback on these boards; I can’t imagine them filtering for good. To read most of them, the show is terrible and they should change wholesale. That would be a bad thing.

  75. Watson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Tero Kuittinen,

    That kid is the showrunner’s son. I’m guessing the audition process wasn’t terribly intensive. The girl who plays Sally is pretty great though.

  76. Mimsy
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    My husband is a non reader and he LOVED the finale. He just about cried and called me a liar when I told him we have to wait till next year for S3. He was PISSED at Jon for killing the Halfhand, but he’s excited about next season all the same.

  77. HyacinthGirl
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    WINTER IS COMING FOR YOU, STACKHOUSE.

  78. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets:
    Linda from Westeros.org went ahead and created a thread in the forum for the season two finale about how this show is not truly an adaptation anymore, but something akin to a fan-fic because the House of the Undying contained no prophecies. It is utterly hilarious, but also kind of sad that some people can be such miserable cunts. Regardless, I highly doubt what we saw of Quaithe will be all that we see of her, and I definitely understand why they decided not to include her or the prophecies in the HotU sequence. Why drop a load of nearly non-sensical bricks on the audiences’ heads when it can be spread out and not totally confuse the audience? Anyway, that’s the last time I visit that site, but I recommend checking out the thread if anyone needs a good laugh.

    There’s so much rage in that post. And a lot of hyperbole. But I’ve learned not to debate with her simply because she doesn’t believe the show has any inherent value except as a translation of the books. Since I don’t share that perspective, I’m never going to really understand why she gets so worked up over everything.

  79. DH87
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Tero Kuittinen: The kid on Mad Men last night was so wooden it made me appreciate the fact that GoT got all the juvenile roles right.

    Interesting response. If you are referring to the girl playing “Sally,” Kiernan Shipka, she has received rave reviews and was just on “Inside the Actors Studio” with James Lipton, lecturing to the New School’s Actors Studio students 10-15 years her senior, and of course won the Ensemble Award from the Screen Actors Guild. She’s 12.

  80. Fire And Blood
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    “Guy Junk is Coming” – the new tag line for season 3.

  81. Dogmayor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    The problem isn’t that the show is not an exact translation of the books, it’s that D&D are fucking awful writers. Everything that they’ve added or changed has come off as idiotic, boring, nonsensical or just plain embarrassing. The Talisa character may be the most cringeworthy thing I’ve ever seen in my life. They don’t seem to understand what makes good dramatic story telling. When they do hit their mark it’s because they stuck close to the source, when they they stray things become tedious and meandering. It’s not just book readers complaining about this either.

  82. DH87
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Alan: You’re a writer — taking too much feedback is more dangerous than taking none.

    Agreed, yet I differentiate between writing a novel and writing a film adaptation. One is inherently solitary and the other inherently collaborative. I would suggest GRRM feels the same way and seems to have been one reason why he abandoned the latter for the former.

  83. Ser Lurkalot
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    lol. Yes, we can’t say D&D don’t listen to the fans’ most urgent requests.

  84. Brandon Stark
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Jane:
    ARG drop D&D already, they are butchering an amazing book series.

    Without those two guys you wouldn’t have a show to begin with. I found the finale lackluster, but they hit a homerun with Blackwater. (That final scene with Cersei and the cuts to the battle was perhaps the finest in the series…period.) It’s a big, monstrous, sometimes unwieldy and hardly perfect book series, which means some times the TV adaptation will hit and miss. I’m OK with a bit of blah following a week of brilliance. And D&D aren’t perfect, but damn it, they got this big, bloated plane into the sky in the first place, so let them fly it.

  85. PhilV
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    dont know if this has been posted by anyone before now but in case it hasnt

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapo0h-RDnk

    funny game of thrones parody of a maroon 5 song

  86. brand monahan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Here is the link to the article about season 3 starting February 2013. Hope its true !!!!

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/06/04/6-game-of-thrones-related-activities-to-keep-you-busy-until-season-3/

    Season 2 of the epic fantasy series Game of Thrones has just finished, and Season 3 will likely air in February 2013. Who knows when George R.R. Martin will finish the next installment of his A Song of Ice and Fire series, The Winds of Winter? This means there’s a whole lot of empty space that we need to fill with Game of Thrones-related activities.

  87. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    If I was D&D I would not personally read any of these ASOIAF fansites or posting boards (unless I had some super thick skin).

    However, I think it is important to always keep a few fingers on the collective fanbase pulse. If I were D&D I would assign a few close assistants to keep a pulse on what we liked and didn’t like about every episode and have them give me a summary of common likes and dislikes…

    Hopefully D&D care about what we think. After all we all are huge fans of the book and share the love for this saga.

    I hope D&D constantly evolve through each season and build on what works and eliminate what doesn’t. That would be great..,

  88. Tero Kuittinen
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    No, she is impressive – it’s the showrunner’s son who takes you right out of the episode. Mad Men has otherwise pitch perfect casting. Right down to Joan’s mom.

  89. Andrew
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    Apperently guests can’t view the forums anymore. Or i’m just doing it wrong, I don’t know. But yeah, some people on Tumblr were saying she went absolutely batshit. Wish I could have seen it.

    Congrats to everyone involved in the show for breaking that 4mil mark! Deffinitely a nice milestone.

  90. Brandon Stark
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    If I was D&D I would not personally read any of these ASOIAF fansites or posting boards (unless I had some super thick skin).

    I hope D&D constantly evolve through each season and build on what works and eliminate what doesn’t.That would be great..,

    What works and doesn’t work will always be different and depend on the people watching. If you can learn one thing from the Internet it’s that there’s always some one calling gold shit and someone else arguing shit is gold.

  91. SillyMammo
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor,

    Yeah, all those Tywin/Arya scenes suck ballz!!

  92. Drfunk
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    PhilV:
    dont know if this has been posted by anyone before now but in case it hasnt

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapo0h-RDnk

    funny game of thrones parody of a maroon 5 song

    O.M.G … Possibly the best parody ever hahaha

  93. DH87
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor: When they do hit their mark it’s because they stuck close to the source, when they they stray things become tedious and meandering.

    I’ve said something similar in the past. Straying from the text doesn’t have to be bad. Straying from the text could be good if it were successful. It just seems as though the least successful things on screen are the things that have been changed from the books.

    Looking at the “non-readers threads” all over the net seem to acknowledge that this is partially true. The addition of Ros, the “new” scenes (going back to Robert and Jaime’s long static scene in K.L. last season)…..all of the decisions that don’t seem to have been based either on budget or timing or logistics or anything else the fandom could accept pretty willingly, but on things D&D want and/or “like,” based on heresay and interview sources.

    For me, “purists” hate anything different from canon and “book readers” see things on the screen that weren’t successful dramatically and attempt to “fix them” for D&D by referring to a successful solution presented in the books. That may be the only solution (based on the months/years of trial and error the novelist endures in his/her lonely garret) or it may be a solution.

    In Hemingway and Gellhorn, the Hemingway character growls something like “I throw my books at Hollywood and they throw the money back over the transom and that’s that.” That’s what the book readers want to avoid, but it may be an impossible task, and if anyone knows that, it’s GRRM.

  94. Scholesy
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Finally, sweet victory.

  95. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Jane: ARG drop D&D already, they are butchering an amazing book series.

    Maybe so, but they’re leaving us with a pretty choice cut of meat.

  96. serum
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    thats amazing, BEST SHOW EVER!!!!!!

  97. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    Seriously, that thing just made my day. She’s got some serious single-child issues, I mean:

    “I had said before the season started that for this season, the only thing I really hoped for was that they would get the House of the Undying right. If not, I would find it hard to continue watching. Since they didn’t even try to get it right, they just threw it in the trash, I have absolutely no interest in watching any more. Unfortunately, we have a lot tied up in the coverage of the show, so I’ll probably have to keep watching to some degree anyway. But I no longer look forward to new episodes because the story has been gutted of what matters the most to me and because I do not expect any of the scenes I truly care about to make it in, at least not without being butchered beyond recognition.”

    That’s when she remembered she’s actually a grown up woman who lives in the real world, and, sadly, can’t have people’s heads on spikes. So much for revolution.

  98. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Agreed, yet I differentiate between writing a novel and writing a film adaptation. One is inherently solitary and the other inherently collaborative. I would suggest GRRM feels the same way and seems to have been one reason why he abandoned the latter for the former.

    That is true. Filmmaking (whether in film or television) is amazingly collaborative, and there’s a level of control you simply cannot have that you have in a novel.

    Another marked difference that I think people are missing is the possibilities of rewrites in novels are relatively easy. You can edit.

    Filmmaking has dailies and subsequent re-shoots, pickups, etc., but given budget constraints, sometimes something you envision just doesn’t work as well as you like. Yes, you storyboard, and professionals are much better at understanding what works on set and pre-visualizing … but sometimes the acting is off, or it rains, or when you edit the shots together it doesn’t work like you hoped. The impact isn’t there. It’s even more difficult when special effects are involved because you shoot the scene long before you see the effect.

    Some scenes do fall flat. And sometimes you don’t have the money to fix it. I have no doubt there are scenes that D&D and Alan Taylor and everyone else would like to redo, elements after watching it all in order they wish they had added or clarified, etc.

    But unlike a written story, you don’t get to see anything finished — with color, music, effects, which can drastically change how something is perceived — until it’s done.

  99. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo:
    Dogmayor,

    Yeah, all those Tywin/Arya scenes suck ballz!!

    Yeah, it’s funny, for me, many of the book sequences fall flat as they can’t approach what’s in my head. The completely added sequences tend to be the strongest for me (and a lot of the book reviewers agree) and I think that’s because there’s no burden of expectations.

  100. John W
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    I’d be happier with less junk, male or female, and more direwolf and dragon.

  101. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    She has a point. I mean all that mattered to me was some hot lesbian action between Dany and Doreth. Damn D&D took that away from me with only a sexy allusion. Let me know when they get it correct because they obviously have no care for millions of individuals different favorite parts of the novels.

    Valyrian,

  102. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian:
    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    Seriously, that thing just made my day. She’s got some serious single-child issues, I mean:

    “I had said before the season started that for this season, the only thing I really hoped for was that they would get the House of the Undying right. If not, I would find it hard to continue watching. Since they didn’t even try to get it right, they just threw it in the trash, I have absolutely no interest in watching any more. Unfortunately, we have a lot tied up in the coverage of the show, so I’ll probably have to keep watching to some degree anyway. But I no longer look forward to new episodes because the story has been gutted of what matters the most to me and because I do not expect any of the scenes I truly care about to make it in, at least not without being butchered beyond recognition.”

    That’s when she remembered she’s actually a grown up woman who lives in the real world, and, sadly, can’t have people’s heads on spikes. So much for revolution.

    At that point, there’s no argument back, is there? The OP basically says, “I didn’t get what I want, so I’d take my ball and go home, but I make money off this, so I’m staying.”

    Boy, that makes me want to read what she says, no? I’ve actually lost a decent amount of my favorite things about the book — and I’m sure it’s going to get worse in that respect. But it’s still a good show.

  103. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    John W:
    Fire And Blood,

    I’d be happier with less junk, male or female, and more direwolf and dragon.

    Junk is cheap. Direwolves, sadly, are not.

  104. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Haha!

    That is awesome!!!

    “Guy Junk is Coming”

    Ladies be scared, be very scared… Or happy?

  105. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Depends on the junk and who is packing it.

    Alan: Junk is cheap.Direwolves, sadly, are not.

  106. T-Good
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian,

    Lmao, how old is she…sounds like a whiny child

    “wahh wahh I’m not playing anymore”

  107. Delta1212
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Brandon Stark: What works and doesn’t work will always be different and depend on the people watching. If you can learn one thing from the Internet it’s that there’s always some one calling gold shit and someone else arguing shit is gold.

    And sometimes they’re right. Tywin’s shit may not be gold, but his horse’s sure was.

  108. Zack
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Junk is cheap.Direwolves, sadly, are not.

    Yeah :/

    Honestly though I thought the vast majority of the CG work was really solid. Direwolves and dragons included.

    My concerns are just how much time they are able to utilize these effects on screen. The dragons are going to have to grow to massive size by series end (meaning they’re probably going to need to redo the models between each season, or every few seasons anyway), and I’m trepidatious that we might see them only for the briefest of moments.

    As for naughty bits, I don’t care if we see less or more, as long as when we do it isn’t clear that its inclusion is primarily to distract the “perv demographic.” If it serves the narrative–and a lot of time nudity is totally necessary in this one–huzzah!! And a reduced male gaze for our cameras.

  109. Dogmayor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    You liked it, that’s fine, but all of those scenes were completely hollow. I read someone refer to it as Arya’s vacation at Harrenhal. There was no character progression. There was no drama. There was no climax. This is bad writing. Like I said before, D&D don’t know what makes good story telling. It seems as though they just liked the Tywin character and thought it would be totally super cool if Arya talked to him and stuff.

  110. DH87
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Alan: Another marked difference that I think people are missing is the possibilities of rewrites in novels are relatively easy. You can edit.

    Decades ago I worked for a book publisher as a junior editorial drone and was in the office of the senior editor when he contacted a best-selling author living in a cottage on the English moors. (This was in the pre-Internet/cell phone era, of course.)

    After many weeks of silence, we were eagerly awaiting an update on the manuscript of the next best-seller, already overdue, so the editor asked the author, “How’s the new book going?”

    The famous author said, “I’ve written 350 pages.”

    Editor: “Superb! Wonderful news!”

    Author (morosely): “And I just threw every one of them into the fire.”

  111. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Word

  112. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad this show is set for another two seasons, but they should really hand over the reins to people who can actually write well (NOT D&D)

  113. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    LOL’ed! And let’s just kill people because among all the millions of viewers it didn’t match MY expectations -.-

  114. SergioCQH
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SillyMammo,

    You liked it, that’s fine, but all of those scenes were completely hollow. I read someone refer to it as Arya’s vacation at Harrenhal. There was no character progression. There was no Drama. There was no climax. This is bad writing. Like I said before, D&D don’t seem to know what makes good story telling. It seems as though they just liked the Tywin character and thought it would be totally super cool if Arya talked to him and stuff.

    You disliked it, and that’s fine, but calling it bad writing as though that were a fact of nature is ridiculous. The Tywin and Arya scenes got rave reviews from pretty much every reputable TV critic. Plot is not a necessary requirement of good writing.

  115. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    T-Good,

    Man…I don’t know, but because she’s been running a fansite basically since GRRM delivered the manuscript for AGOT to his publisher she probably thinks that her opinions are so golden.

  116. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    I’m glad this show is set for another two seasons, but they should really hand over the reins to people who can actually write well (NOT D&D)

    Some suggestions on good television writers, since you seem to be the authority on the subject, would be much appreciated. Or maybe you think you should take the reins, because your opinion somehow equals fact…? I think I’ll be more inclined to agree with the G.R.R.M. on this one – you know, the guy who gave D&D the go-ahead to bring this series to life. And I also think that G.R.R.M. would be one of the first to admit that even his writing is not perfect nor always elegant.

  117. Zack
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    I’m glad this show is set for another two seasons, but they should really hand over the reins to people who can actually write well (NOT D&D)

    Benioff *can* write well. He just often doesn’t.

    25th Hour = brilliant
    Troy = yeah, not so much

    So I don’t think they need to be gotten rid of entirely, but what I can say is that the episodes with other writers are highlights (Cogman & Martin wrote this season’s two best).

    So bringing in fresh blood more often than they do, to give a different spin on things, could absolutely help.

  118. Hi-Fi
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    So when do you guys think we’ll be getting our first official casting announcement for Season 3 (after Shireen’s leak)? This week?

  119. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Everything this season was pretty awesome.

    People got to remember there are time constraints and budget restrictions.

    Everything that I was disappointed in or didn’t totally love, 90% of the time were for one or two (or both) of those reasons. Because of that D&D get a pass from me and a thumbs up for being able to bring us a 10 hour series that was basically big budget movie quality in every aspect.

    Besides some wasted time on sex stuff that wasn’t needed (Ros), I have no beef with D&D.

    Of course we all have our nitpicks. Nothing wrong with sharing it with fellow fans.

    I can’t wait for when some more casting news gets posted…

  120. Dogmayor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    SergioCQH,

    Nice appeal to authority, my points still stand. Also, notice how I didn’t mention plot anywhere.

  121. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets: Some suggestions on good television writers, since you seem to be the authority on the subject, would be much appreciated. Or maybe you think you should take the reins, because your opinion somehow equals fact…? I think I’ll be more inclined to agree with the G.R.R.M. on this one – you know, the guy who gave D&D the go-ahead to bring this series to life. And I also think that G.R.R.M. would be one of the first to admit that even his writing is not perfect nor always elegant.

    I’m starting to love you, Pastor_of_Muppets

  122. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    It’s kinda like teaching my grandmma how to work an IPhone. It’s difficult to teach an old dog new tricks as they say. That, and my grandma is also dead.
    Some things just can’t be taught or learned.

    Valyrian:
    T-Good,

    Man…I don’t know, but because she’s been running a fansite basically since GRRM delivered the manuscript for AGOT to his publisher she probably thinks that her opinions are so golden.

  123. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    You pretty much summed it up!

  124. Lannister_accountant
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Well coming to this thread reminds of a) why I like coming to WiC and b) why I feel like I’m the square walking into a hipster bar when I go to Westeros.org.

  125. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    My comments *are* facts. Also, Metallica sucks.
    I don’t think GRRM knew the extent to how shitty a pair of writers D&D were when he gave the nod to adapt the series.And if you’d really like to know who my ideal writer would be for everything ever? Joss Whedon, hands down. As for books, Steven Erikson, the god of fantasy. But Bryan Cogman and GRRM will do enough for this series I think. D&D need to go and you should stop deluding yourself.

  126. LordStarkington
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SergioCQH,

    Nice appeal to authority, my points still stand. Also, notice how I didn’t mention plot anywhere.

    Appeals to authority are not fallacious on their own so…

  127. House Snow
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood:
    “Guy Junk is Coming” – the new tag line for season 3.

    In other words Daario is coming.

  128. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    House Snow: In other words Daario is coming.

    Oh God hadn’t realized that’s what they meant O.o lol

  129. SergioCQH
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SergioCQH,

    Nice appeal to authority, my points still stand. Also, notice how I didn’t mention plot anywhere.

    What point? You never made an argument, merely stated an opinion, and then pretended as if your opinion is more meaningful than your asshole.

  130. SillyMammo
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SillyMammo,

    You liked it, that’s fine, but all of those scenes were completely hollow. I read someone refer to it as Arya’s vacation at Harrenhal. There was no character progression. There was no drama. There was no climax. This is bad writing. Like I said before, D&D don’t know what makes good story telling. It seems as though they just liked the Tywin character and thought it would be totally super cool if Arya talked to him and stuff.

    When I watched those scenes I saw character development, establishing motivation backstory, glimpses into Westeros history and explanation of current events that occured off-screen. Not every scene needs to have a beginning middle and end.

  131. Remaal
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    House Snow: In other words Daario is coming.

    LOL that’s frighteningly plausible.

  132. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Remaal,

    D&D better not let the actor who plays Daario sign a “no frontal nudity” contract… These female GoTs fans would get PISSED!

  133. Mike Chair
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Arthur: Weiss: “We need more guy junk on the show. Fair and balanced.”

    Natalie Dormer is so hot that after she showed up a King’s Landing all the men started showing their guy junk.

  134. DH87
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    House Snow: In other words Daario is coming.

    Jason Momoa in a blond wig, perhaps?

  135. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Remaal,

    D&D better not let the actor who plays Daario sign a “no frontal nudity” contract…These female GoTs fans would get PISSED!

    And don’t forget the bath scene at Harrenhal! XD

  136. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    I agree that Metallica sucks, and Joss Whedon is a boss, but everything else you said is just kind of irrelevant at this point (and at all points prior and going forward).

    Speaking of which, for any administrator out there who might be listening, there should really be a way to ignore users. Not that I’m adverse to posters here criticizing the show (as I’ve done myself), I just prefer that it be constructive. There are plenty of posters here who provide that, so it’d be nice to have the option to ignore the ones who don’t, although I suspect a more traditional forum may be required for that kind of thing.

  137. Remaal
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Oh dear. I hate that character so much, I’m gonna start an internet meme. “Any junk but Daario’s trunk” lol

  138. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    I am not trying to be a dick, but can someone tell me what’s wrong with Dormers lips? She talks out of the side of her mouth almost every scene and it bugs the shit out of me.

  139. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    Go to Westeros.org

  140. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Dude, I can’t wait till Jeff gets a load of Marg… She is going to own that jackass. Marg is so much more intelligent then him.

    I am so looking forward to Natalie outwitting Cers and Jeff! That is going to be awesome!

    Natalie vs Lena and Jack…

  141. The Instrumentalist
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Yaaayyy! What joyous news!

    A little OT, but I found this article, an interview with Gwendoline Christie, I don’t think it was posted: http://www.accesshollywood.com/game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie-talks-digging-deep-to-play-brienne-of-tarth_article_63383

    I’m just mentioning it because I’ve always wished there was a more in depth talk with Gwen and finding this was a nice treat. :3 It’s nice to know that the part is really close to her heart. I think she’s actually read all the books, which is different than a lot of the other actors who are taking it step by step…

  142. wesolc
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    i just dont get it IMDB says it all

    http://www.imdb.com/search/title?num_votes=5000,&sort=num_votes&title_type=tv_series

    9.4 rating for GT and 10k more votes then frinds(10 seasons) , most watched series of all time…(frinds only got 8.9 rating) and only 4.2 m prime?

    The math is wrong here..dunno why

  143. Dogmayor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    SergioCQH,

    Of course it’s an opinion, you’re so very clever to point that out. Your response was flippant and fallacious, if you don’t want to have a conversation don’t respond.

  144. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    I’d rather read a thread full of nothing but your posts.

  145. David
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    Congratulations HBO and Game Of Thrones cast and crew. 5.2 Million is awesome. Please surpass True Blood next year. Thanks.

  146. Watson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    I like how you have chosen an article on the record breaking ratings of the show as your location for arguing that the showrunners need to be fired.

  147. Mike Chair
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Dude, Marg gonna own that whole city! She’s walking around showing girl junk, taking out the side of her mouth… I expect D&D will take liberties.

  148. Dogmayor
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    Arya was the exact same person going into Harrenhal as she was when she just sorta wandered out. The wandering out part being a huge example of the poor writing, robbing her arc of any sort of climax. She was supposedly in the belly of the beast, and there was no tension, no drama. There was no sense of danger. Arya was a sassy little 12 year old and Tywin treated her better than his advisers. The characters have already been established, in these scenes they were completely static and instead of character development we got boring conversations about dyslexic Jaime and poorly delivered history.

  149. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    My comments *are* facts. Also, Metallica sucks.
    I don’t think GRRM knew the extent to how shitty a pair of writers D&D were when he gave the nod to adapt the series.And if you’d really like to know who my ideal writer would be for everything ever? Joss Whedon, hands down. As for books, Steven Erikson, the god of fantasy. But Bryan Cogman and GRRM will do enough for this series I think. D&D need to go and you should stop deluding yourself.

    ASOIF by Erikson would be seventeen books long, but it would only need six. Every theme and story would be repeated, ninety percent of the characters would be the same. It’s just extended build up to big fight after big fight catering to people who like to call things “badass.”

    Oh, it’s fun at times, and one or two of the books is pretty good, but that man is more in desperate need of an editor than any writer in history. As a series, I can’t imagine anything is more overrated.

    Love Whedon, but I’ve never seen anything he’s done that wasn’t obviously Whedon, so I wonder if he could do an adaptation like this. He likely wouldn’t want to.

  150. Rygar
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    Glad I’m not the only one who is aware of her mouth issues. I’m developing a fetish.

    Mike Chair:
    Arthur,

    Dude, Marg gonna own that whole city!She’s walking around showing girl junk, taking out the side of her mouth…I expect D&D will take liberties.

  151. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Marg and the Queen of Thorns

    Vs

    Jeff and Cers

    The Lannisters haven’t got a chance. They are no match for the Tyrells… I actually feel bad for them… A lion getting eating in its own den. How sad…

  152. ThePinkDragon
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Alan
    Love Whedon, but I’ve never seen anything he’s done that wasn’t obviously Whedon, so I wonder if he could do an adaptation like this.He likely wouldn’t want to.

    As the one person in the world who thinks his writing style is overly cutesy and twee, please no. Though he could probably do some fun one-liners, that I can say.

  153. RabbitStew
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Woohoo, to guy junk

  154. vntrlqst
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    That woman lost me when she referred to the Arya scenes from “The Old Gods and the New” as “cheap drama,” and then completely ignored George’s FIVE (FIVE!) uses of the “saved in the nick of time” trope in “Blackwater.” She believes the former is cheap drama, fine, this is television, even the best shows have that kind of “cheap drama,” but she shows what a troll she is when she ignores similar “cheap drama” in the George penned episode. If there’s a change, they invent a reason for why it sucks, and as soon as Martin does something that should “suck” by their earlier standard, they ignore it because they are too busy frothing at their mouths over the fact that he wrote the episode.

  155. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    How flattering ;)

    Watson,
    Isn’t it ironic? Too bad they can’t be fired. The most I can hope for is the invitation of other writers to write more episodes, or their abilities to somehow improve, or have have some people affiliated with the fans of the show to watch over their choices.

  156. WildSeed
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    I would not be surprised if extra filming was already shot in the remote areas
    of the world to afford some continuity and advantage of an early start for s3.

    Oh and that GoT Margaery actually had the audacity to propose marriage
    at she and Joffrey’s first meeting ( I know Loras made an introduction
    but still ).Even the Sand Snakes would pale to that kind of up – frontness.

  157. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Wow…

    This TV series is D&D’s baby. Without them there would be no “HBO original series, Game of Thrones”. Instead of hating on D&D you should be thanking them.

    How ungrateful, seriously. D&D give all GRRM fans the best gift ever and all some people do is complain….

  158. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SillyMammo,

    Arya was the exact same person going into Harrenhal as she was when she just sorta wandered out. The wandering out part being a huge example of the poor writing, robbing her arc of any sort of climax. She was supposedly in the belly of the beast, and there was no tension, no drama. There was no sense of danger. Arya was a sassy little 12 year old and Tywin treated her better than his advisers. The characters have already been established, in these scenes they were completely static and instead of character development we got boring conversations about dyslexic Jaime and poorly delivered history.

    I think Arya’s progression is just being drawn out. Otherwise, there’s very little progression for her in the next season(s).

    Arya did progress on her dark path while in Harrenhal. For one, she learned from watching Tywin, her most recent mentor and most cold-hearted.

    But more importantly, she went from innocent to accidentally killing a boy to intentionally ordering the death of a torturing and then to save herself and then to attempting to assassinate for strategic reasons. Finally, using this power to simply manipulate someone.

    Yes, her expressly killing someone takes it further. And I agree that should could have felt more at risk (they were trying that with Littlefinger and Lorch, but I agree it hit on all points).

    But I don’t think it is an issue if she doesn’t kill until Season 3 or 4. She’s got a lot of seasons and frankly from a character progression, little changes until she heads to Braavos.

    —————

    Furthermore, I find this criticism disingenuous when people don’t acknowledge places where the writers have added scenes or perspectives that add to these traditional arcs. Theon’s, for example. I find his progression more interesting in the show, frankly, and his character far more grey. The thoughts are still George’s — I’m convinced Theon is pretty similar — but the POV of Theon isn’t all that self-aware. It’s more haunting on screen.

    It’s the same as when people are like Cogman + Martin RULZ! D&D Suck! D&D wrote Baelor. They wrote a lot of my favorite episodes. Cogman’s first season ep was meh.

    Give credit where it is due and people will take your criticism as more genuine.

  159. WinterComing
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    If I were D&D I would assign a few close assistants to keep a pulse on what we liked and didn’t like about every episode and have them give me a summary of common likes and dislikes…

    I thought they did? His name was Bryan Cogman :(

  160. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    The sad thing is…

    When Jeff agrees to marry her, right then and there, he just dug his own grave and he doesn’t even know it yet.

    Those female Tyrells don’t fuck around. They are in it to win it and their wit and political tactics are as sharp as any sword…

  161. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Yeah, it cracks me up listening to people calling for someone else to take over the show. It’s like calling for someone other than GRRM to finish the books.

  162. Turncloak
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    D&D have done an excellent job of adapting the book to screen. They could have easily pulled a Walking Dead if they wanted too and let Ned live for anoter season but they didnt. The show while not a page for page translation, follows the major points of the book pretty damn close.

  163. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Sorry to break it to you but Erikson makes GRRM look like a toddler playing in a sandbox.

  164. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    D&D is to Asoiaf what M. Night Shamalon is the Avatar: The Last Airbender basically

  165. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I agree. I love the show. I am extremely pleased with D&D.

  166. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Alan,

    Sorry to break it to you but Erikson makes GRRM look like a toddler playing in a sandbox.

    Well, there’s a counterargument. Oh, look, it’s another plotline of desperate people fighting to their deaths! Oh, wait! Here’s another character that’s more powerful than another! Badass!

    I love how the wikipedia entry for Malazan Book of the Fallen doesn’t have a Themes section. There’s a reason for that. It’s fun at times, overtired and repetitive in other places, but it’s all fluff. There’s nothing the author actually has to say. It was started in a role playing game, and you can tell.

  167. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    News Flash: DB is upset about the show and wants everyone to know about it.

  168. Josh
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe a thread where we’re supposed to be celebrating the victory of over 4 million viewers, we’re bashing the men who brought this series to life, who have everything to do with why it works…To call them crap writers? Ummm watch “Baelor”…

    It’s just crazy. I don’t get it….

  169. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Even though I like those books I would never recommend them except to an avid fantasy reader. Whereas I would recommend ASOIAF or The Kingkiller Chronicle to anybody who likes to read fiction. Malazan was an extremely tough series to get into. I do like the series but I’ll never read it again.

  170. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    Yeah, apparently A LOT more people enjoy D&D’s adaptation then not. Let’s not worry about it…

  171. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    Misery loves company. Even company that finds them annoying.

  172. SillyMammo
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    I agree. No show is going to please everyone. There are some things this season I didn’t like as much, because I had preconceived notions of how the story should be played out. But on the flip-side, think how horribly wrong the adaptation could have turned out? Legend of the Seeker anyone?

  173. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Newsflash: Dan has a creepy obsession with me and it’s showing

  174. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    DB,

    You got me there.

  175. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Wow, turns out you did not understand the series at all then lol

  176. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Lannister_accountant:
    Well coming to this thread reminds of a) why I like coming to WiC and b) why I feel like I’m the square walking into a hipster bar when I go to Westeros.org.

    True, nobody has quite the ability to look down on an outsider like a gang of nerds. Comic Book Guy syndrome.

  177. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SillyMammo,

    Arya was the exact same person going into Harrenhal as she was when she just sorta wandered out. The wandering out part being a huge example of the poor writing, robbing her arc of any sort of climax. She was supposedly in the belly of the beast, and there was no tension, no drama. There was no sense of danger. Arya was a sassy little 12 year old and Tywin treated her better than his advisers. The characters have already been established, in these scenes they were completely static and instead of character development we got boring conversations about dyslexic Jaime and poorly delivered history.

    Those scenes were plenty suspenseful to people who haven’t read the books, which you’d know if you spent any time on newbie threads. Problem is it wasn’t suspenseful for you because you knew exactly what was coming, and you were too busy not-enjoying the changed scenes because you had different expectations.

  178. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Alan,

    Even though I like those books I would never recommend them except to an avid fantasy reader. Whereas I would recommend ASOIAF or The Kingkiller Chronicle to anybody who likes to read fiction. Malazan was an extremely tough series to get into. I do like the series but I’ll never read it again.

    Oh, I enjoyed them at points. But I think it’s rather void of relevant thematic elements — there’s nothing I took away from that of value. It’s entertainment at times. Other times it’s terribly repetitive.

  179. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I agree completely.

  180. Onion
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    I read the books. Sure there are some things that left me a bit confused or were a let down… nah, let down is too strong.
    Its a TV show. Its entertaining. Best thing on if you ask me.
    Im shocked at how surprised people are at the whiners. they are everywhere in real life, and even worse on the internet because they are given a platform.
    If I get asshole clients, I fire them. Life is too short. But forums, trip advisor, review sites allow people with no voice “empowerment” and of the only kind they can truly deal with, anonymous empowerment, because they simply would never act that way in public. True there are exceptions to the rule, Ive had to deal with them, and did. Some people you cant make happy, regardless of what it is. The negative word is far more powerful than words of encouragement, and I dont understand this in our society. We are so willing to listen or believe the negative over the positive. Its a bit sad. I wish I could pity these whiners, but I dont.

  181. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Onion:
    I read the books. Sure there are some things that left me a bit confused or were a let down… nah, let down is too strong.
    Its a TV show. Its entertaining. Best thing on if you ask me.
    Im shocked at how surprised people are at the whiners. they are everywhere in real life, and even worse on the internet because they are given a platform.
    If I get asshole clients, I fire them. Life is too short. But forums, trip advisor, review sites allow people with no voice “empowerment” and of the only kind they can truly deal with, anonymous empowerment, because they simply would never act that way in public. True there are exceptions to the rule, Ive had to deal with them, and did. Some people you cant make happy, regardless of what it is.The negative word is far more powerful than words of encouragement, and I dont understand this in our society.We are so willing to listen or believe the negative over the positive. Its a bit sad.I wish I could pity these whiners, but I dont.

    THIS.

    On an unrelated note, a friend just emailed me these two videos of Maisie dancing at her dancing school. It’s definitely cute overload, she is SO. COOL.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=khCvdAdEwK8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d-UQ9VEL1-E

  182. Biscotti
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Biscotti wishes there was a WiC forum… *morose*

  183. Alan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Alan,

    Wow, turns out you did not understand the series at all then lol

    Perhaps, perhaps not. There’s definitely themes there, well, once in a while, mainly around the crippled God and people somehow blowing up Gods with hand grenades, etc. Mostly there’s a lot of Deus Ex Machina, a lot of people more powerful than the last, a lot of characters but little actual character development…

    But mostly it reads like someone being intentionally obtuse to seem cool and mysterious rather than complex.

    He’s great at world-building. But the world-building seems like the point. I think I got attached to about two characters over ten books. I get that people love the complexity, but real connection to the characters was what is lost for me.

    But please, if I’m missing something, enlighten me. I always like to learn.

  184. Del
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    This is awesome news. I’m actually letting myself think about this series actually making it to the very, very end. Didn’t want to build it up in my head for something that could be dropped later.

    Dan:
    News Flash: DB is upset about the show and wants everyone to know about it.

    I’m pretty sure DB is just a troll, just one who successfully managed to hide it for awhile until getting too obvious as of late. Easier to just skip.

  185. midnightblack07
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    waiting rather impatiently for the day Game of Thrones is the highest rated show on HBO, both because GoT is one of the best things on television and because True Blood isn’t worthy of the title (and I say this as someone who actually enjoys it from time to time).

  186. Lex
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Alan,

    Sorry to break it to you but Erikson makes GRRM look like a toddler playing in a sandbox.

    Uh, no.

    I’ve read and enjoyed Malazan, but they really started falling apart in the later books (Book 8 was one of the shittiest books I’ve ever read). Overall the series is beyond epic, and has some of the best battles ever… but it’s also a giant, sprawling, semi-incoherent mess. Also, Erikson is just sloppy. He only writes one draft, and it shows.

    Malazan is good, but Erikson is just nowhere near Martin’s level.

  187. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian,

    Is she learning the Waterdance?

  188. tdraicer
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    >I hope D&D can be honest with themselves in the midst of the acclaim and look at the show for the long haul: assess their strengths, admit to weaknesses and fix them, and they will have a show for the history books.

    The problem is the assumption that there is any sort of consensus as to what the strengths and weaknesses are, which is obviously untrue. For every person who says they need to change a., there is someone else who thinks a. is perfect, but if they’d only change b.

    For myself, any problems I have are so minor compared to the things I love in the show, I’m happy to have them keep doing what they are doing, without my advice.

  189. winterfell
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Jon Snow’s Bastard: If by “butcher,” you mean “creating critically-acclaimed television that has elevated fantasy-storytelling into the mainstream while inspiring millions of people to buy and read ASoIaF who ordinarily would have walked right past that shelf in the bookstore” then yeah, they’re butchering it.

    Fuck those guys.

    hahaha you are my new best friend

  190. Ed
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    tdraicer:
    >I hope D&D can be honest with themselves in the midst of the acclaim and look at the show for the long haul: assess their strengths, admit to weaknesses and fix them, and they will have a show for the history books.

    The problem is the assumption that there is any sort of consensus as to what the strengths and weaknesses are, which is obviously untrue.For every person who says they need to change a., there is someone else who thinks a. is perfect, but if they’d only change b.

    For myself, any problems I have are so minor compared to the things I love in the show, I’m happy to have them keep doing what they are doing, without my advice.

    Exactly!! I’ve seen people claim certain scenes were a travesty, and others claim they really liked those scenes… Those know-it-alls that are SO smart that they can tell D&D how to do their job need to shut their mouths and go make their own show. You don’t like the way HBO is doing it, quit watching. So freakin’ sick of their whining.

  191. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Although Erikson’s story is so much more magical than ASoIaF, he still manages to capture so much more of the human experience than GRRM has ever achieved. He takes real world problems of such a large scale and ties them in to the struggles of his characters, of armies and of poverty stricken people as a whole. Erikson can portray situations to the scale of oppression and genocide, and not hesitate to get into the thick of it. I will let this quote speak for itself:

    “If I had simply transposed the plight of refugee children in the Sudan, into the Malazan world, and left them as powerless as they are in this one, then in effect all that I am doing is exploiting their existence. I am borrowing their tragedy for the sake of fiction. If, however, I empower them, give them a voice and a will that won’t be denied, I am asking my reader to not turn away, and if I work hard at imagining their moment by moment existence, I am telling myself the same thing.
    This could be attacked as facile on my part. After all, if I really cared as much as I seem to be saying here, why am I not over there saving the lives of children? Fair question. I’m afraid I know myself too well, and my tendency to feel things too deeply (touched on via the T’lan Imass). I can imagine wearing myself down to nothing working to save lives only to, eventually, put a bullet in my own head (ever take note of the suicide rate among photojournalists? What you see can kill you and what you cannot reconcile will kill you).” — Steven Erikson, http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/arts-culture/books/steven-eriksons-notes-on-a-crisis-part-vii-scraping-hard-at-the-veil/

    He teaches you life lessons about love and loss and longing. GRRM has never gone to that extent and I don’t think he can.

  192. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    No where near Martin’s level? LOL you’re right, Erikson could never reach that low.

  193. Trappingsofpower
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Favorite episode of the series to date. Amazing stuff. Can’t believe it’s on television.

  194. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I thought the same! Swift as a deer

  195. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Alan,

    Although Erikson’s story is so much more magical than ASoIaF, he still manages to capture so much more of the human experience than GRRM has ever achieved. He takes real world problems of such a large scale and ties them in to the struggles of his characters, of armies and of poverty stricken people as a whole. Erikson can portray situations to the scale of oppression and genocide, and not hesitate to get into the thick of it. I will let this quote speak for itself:

    He teaches you life lessons about love and loss and longing. GRRM has never gone to that extent and I don’t think he can.

    Haven’t read his books, but judging by that quote he’s mastered the art of earnest pomposity more than Martin ever will.

  196. Ed
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    LOL!!!

    Watson:
    DB,

    I like how you have chosen an article on the record breaking ratings of the show as your location for arguing that the showrunners need to be fired.

  197. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    If you think so, he’s a right to it; he is a master. You should definitely read the series.

  198. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Lex,

    No where near Martin’s level? LOL you’re right, Erikson could never reach that low.

    Why exactly are you here then? What kind of person trolls message boards related to a show by writers they think are terrible based on novels by an author they don’t like?

  199. Arthur
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian,

    You know D&D should take heed to her dancing skills. That’s all Hollywood sword fighting is, a series of dancing moves. Maybe next season she can kick some ass…

  200. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Never said I didn’t like him, just that he is no where near as great as Erikson, but then again, no one is ;)

  201. SillyMammo
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    DB:
    Lex,

    No where near Martin’s level? LOL you’re right, Erikson could never reach that low.

    Wow! So you’re not only trashing the showrunners, but now you’re trashing GRRM. Why are you even here but troll? You don’t like the show and you don’t think the books are very good. Weird…

  202. DB
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    Consistency’s sake

  203. m3shwerks
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Great news to get a Season 3 and potential Season 4. I don’t want to jinx anything (fingers crossed), but Season 4 seems lucky. My favorite seasons for Breaking Bad (blu ray arrived today!) and The Wire are both Season 4.

  204. Dan
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    You have a very high tendency to say things that crack me the hell up.

  205. Valyrian
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    It’s true, and besides the braavosi swordplay is even more graceful, she could have some really awesome scenes

  206. JA
    Posted June 4, 2012 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    When a show debuts around 2.2 million, and the second-season finale is at 4.2 million, you generally do not clean house. Of course those involved will look at how they can improve for season 3. Huge sums of money are at stake. It’s an immensely difficult task and no one in Hollywood could avoid some stumbles along the way, given the source material.

  207. feyrband
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Tero Kuittinen,

    I’ve always got a kick out of Glenn, I find him perfectly creepy. If it wasn’t for his relationship with Betty, I would have to agree with you.

  208. MW
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Imagine how many more viewers they would get if only the writers would take story tips from a bunch of self-important basement-dwelling internet crack-pots.

  209. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    NERD FIGHT!!!

  210. Vanessa
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    GREAT NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^^

  211. Thiago Slash
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    nice news!
    now to make my week better, I just have to read the Twitter Morghulis post!

  212. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    Alan,

    I know westeros.org is supposed to be respected since they are “official”, but if there ever was a hive of butthurt, bitter book purist fanboys. Sorry, I personally can’t stand them, but that’s just me.

  213. Ed
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    BBwwahahahahahahahahaaaa!!! You said it!

    MW:
    Imagine how many more viewers they would get if only the writers would take story tips from a bunch of self-important basement-dwelling internet crack-pots.

  214. Mike
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Omar Brown:
    Alan,

    I know westeros.org is supposed to be respected since they are “official”, but if there ever was a hive of butthurt, bitter book purist fanboys. Sorry, I personally can’t stand them, but that’s just me.

    Agreed. While I may have felt that the HOTU scene was definitely sub-par, the Westeros.org crowd needs to lighten the f up. If I had never heard of the show and came across those forums, I would have thought that HBO’s Game of Thrones was the worst piece of fiction in the history of television. It reminds me of all the hate Peter Jackson got from die-hard Tolkien fans on book sites in the early 2000s.

  215. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    They treat Martin’s written words as infallible dogma that should be translated perfectly or if it deviates even slightly is nitpicked till its deemed garbage.

    Oh well, no more complaints! On to season 3! Hooray!

  216. Dan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Omar Brown,

    I like going there when I’m looking up things about the books but I would never go there for anything regarding the show. Well, sometimes I like going there just to see how bad they are freaking out. I do find it a little funny how angry some people get over a show. It’s only when I am around those kind of people for too long that it starts to grate on me. Thankfully, those kind of people are a very small minority on this site.

  217. More Rice Cooks
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    One might argue Martin’s work fell apart in the later books too. I wouldn’t agree but there’s no question the recent books don’t compare to the first three.

    I hope S3 sees an improvement in writing and direction. Much of this season was a mess with respect to both areas

  218. Lex
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    More Rice Cooks:
    Lex,

    One might argue Martin’s work fell apart in the later books too. I wouldn’t agree but there’s no question the recent books don’t compare to the first three.

    It’ll be hard to say for sure, until GRRM finished the series, but you’re right; Feast and Dance are the slowest/weakest in the series (although I still enjoy them).

    I like Erikson quite a bit, but have been disappointed with the last couple novels. I have yet to read 9 and 10. I love Erikson’s battles and world building, but I don’t think he comes close to Martin in terms of actual prose or storytelling ability.

  219. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    More Rice Cooks,

    Agreed, while book 3 is my personal favorite of the series , book 4 was really awful in many parts. Actually I wouldn’t mind if D&D invent stuff to fix it, since a literal adaptation could actually make the show tank.

  220. More Rice Cooks
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Omar Brown,

    I think AFFC is the best writing Martin has done in the series, but the pacing is rather spotty, which leads to some bad chapters (pretty sure everyone knows the POV I’m talking about). Overall I like AFFC and ADWD a lot, but they aren’t on the level of the first three books. I have high hopes for TWOW, and my anticipation mirrors the anticipation I’m seeing for S3 of the show. Just as TWOW will certainly pick up in the midst of action after a long period of politicking/pieces being re-arranged, S3 should jump out the gate fast as well. I’m sure there will be scenes introducing new players, setting things up, etc but we’ll get action right out of the gate this time with the Others, Jon, and some other stuff. If written/directed decently, it should be a fun ride.

  221. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:43 am | Permalink

    DB:
    Alan,

    Although Erikson’s story is so much more magical than ASoIaF, he still manages to capture so much more of the human experience than GRRM has ever achieved. He takes real world problems of such a large scale and ties them in to the struggles of his characters, of armies and of poverty stricken people as a whole. Erikson can portray situations to the scale of oppression and genocide, and not hesitate to get into the thick of it. I will let this quote speak for itself:

    He teaches you life lessons about love and loss and longing. GRRM has never gone to that extent and I don’t think he can.

    Wow, let me second that that quote is incredibly pompous.

    Anyway, I can’t concur with Erikson and you there. I’m sure he wanted to put that in, but placing a walking train of children being butchered left and right for an entire book, and then having one of the characters sing an all powerful song… I’m sorry but I neither see anyway that anyone translates that to “children are suffering in the Sudan, I should help them” or how that’s really emblematic of an element of the human condition I can relate to. It’s also not a theme that particularly interests thought in me.

    I’m glad you got something out of that. Erikson’s characters don’t tend to change or learn much (or really be full characters) and I don’t think that plotline is any different. Oh, it’s cryptic, and yes, there’s endless descriptions of suffering, but there’s no point of view, no real discernable conflict. I mean, we’re all against killing children, no?

    And in the end, there’s yet another deus ex machina of the song. Which doesn’t save any of the kids, really, and there’s no real explanation that I can remember. What’s the theme there? The Children are our Future? Suffering is not a theme.

    (And Erikson is kidding himself if he thinks anyone was spurred to help the children in the Sudan after reading that passage.)

    Anywho, I found it entertaining at points and profoundly boring at others. Maybe 1 in 20 characters were either interesting or real. I lived for what’s his name that had Mael as his manservant, even though he was fundamentally ridiculous. Just because the rest was slog, slog, slog, let’s die.

    I look for books that make me think; that have parallels to my life as well as entertain. Perhaps I’ve been lucky, but there’s little in Malazan that did either. There’s the constantly reiterated persistence of mankind, which is fun. And the crippled god is obvious but I’ll give you there’s a theme there, if a bit Ayn Randish for my taste.

    But, 10 books? I mean, there’s not 10 books worth of entertainment, let alone something to say. I personally think Erikson — who is an archaeologist by trade — liked the world building a lot more than the character building. That’s fine if that’s your preference. I can’t elevate it to ASOIF for two reasons. One, it lacks much oompf in that whole theme area. And two, it’s so horribly edited that it’s boring and repetitive for giant swaths.

  222. Justin Saunders-Carter
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    MW: Imagine how many more viewers they would get if only the writers would take story tips from a bunch of self-important basement-dwelling internet crack-pots.

    I Lol’d hard. Sooo happy that some posters here and over at westeros.org do not produce television programs

  223. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Omar Brown:
    Alan,

    I know westeros.org is supposed to be respected since they are “official”, but if there ever was a hive of butthurt, bitter book purist fanboys. Sorry, I personally can’t stand them, but that’s just me.

    What I will never understand is the way folks comment when complaining about changes. I swear, if they said some of these things out loud, they’d realize how little grown adults say things like “They ruined it!” and “They SUCK as writers!”

    I have this weird thing where I love discussing things, and since some of my favorite topics are not shared to my level of obsession by friends I see face to face, I turn to the internet. But man, the internet is full of my other pet peeve — people who say shit they’d never (and shouldn’t say) to a person’s face.

    I’d say of the book complaints…

    20% are factually wrong and the complainer read it wrong
    30% are pedantic commentary along the lines of “HOW WILL THEY TELL THE STORY WHEN THERES NO PEACH!!!”
    30% are things obviously changed for budget or other difficulty in filming something
    20% are legitimate changes, most of which have to do with losing POV structure or moving to a different media and half of those pay out.

    I’m not saying there’s not legitimate complaints. I miss things to and there’s no doubt they ain’t perfect.

    But they don’t suck at writing, it isn’t the worst show ever, and if missing the HotU “ruined” the show for you, you need to f*ing grow up.

  224. Lex
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:01 am | Permalink

    Alan,

    Tehol and Bugg! :D

  225. Justin Saunders-Carter
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Alan: What I will never understand is the way folks comment when complaining about changes. I swear, if they said some of these things out loud, they’d realize how little grown adults say things like “They ruined it!” and “They SUCK as writers!” I have this weird thing where I love discussing things, and since some of my favorite topics are not shared to my level of obsession by friends I see face to face, I turn to the internet. But man, the internet is full of my other pet peeve — people who say shit they’d never (and shouldn’t say) to a person’s face.I’d say of the book complaints…20% are factually wrong and the complainer read it wrong30% are pedantic commentary along the lines of “HOW WILL THEY TELL THE STORY WHEN THERES NO PEACH!!!”30% are things obviously changed for budget or other difficulty in filming something20% are legitimate changes, most of which have to do with losing POV structure or moving to a different media and half of those pay out.I’m not saying there’s not legitimate complaints. I miss things to and there’s no doubt they ain’t perfect.But they don’t suck at writing, it isn’t the worst show ever, and if missing the HotU “ruined” the show for you, you need to f*ing grow up.

    Awesome. Couldnt agree more. Some people need to grow up. I hope people are as passionate about there communities are they are about omitted prophecy

  226. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Lex:
    Alan,

    Tehol and Bugg! :D

    That’s it! I loved Tehol and Bugg!

  227. Huck
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Oh and that GoT Margaery actually had the audacity to propose marriage
    at she and Joffrey’s first meeting ( I know Loras made an introduction
    but still ).Even the Sand Snakes would pale to that kind of up – frontness.

    The way I understood that scene, Littlefinger had brokered the marriage and everything was already agreed on behind the scenes. Joffrey’s protestations were just show put on for the court, and his mother’s and Pycelle’s answers were “scripted” beforehand.

  228. Huck
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:39 am | Permalink

    Tero Kuittinen:
    From Arya to Tommen, all of the minors are at least OK and most of them are great. Jon may be the only role in the whole show that may have been miscast. But it’s too early to tell – he’s been so underwritten.

    I agree. And I suspect that Jon has been underwritten because the writers weren’t really confident about the actor…

  229. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    Alan: There’s so much rage in that post.And a lot of hyperbole.But I’ve learned not to debate with her simply because she doesn’t believe the show has any inherent value except as a translation of the books.Since I don’t share that perspective, I’m never going to really understand why she gets so worked up over everything.

    This is Linda we are talking about. The same Linda who shat about a million tons of bricks when Nonso Alonzie was cast as Xaro, all because Alonsie is black and Xaro in the books was white. And it wasn’t the stupidest thing she has ever posted online.

    I personally think Erikson — who is an archaeologist by trade — liked the world building a lot more than the character building. That’s fine if that’s your preference. I can’t elevate it to ASOIF for two reasons. One, it lacks much oompf in that whole theme area. And two, it’s so horribly edited that it’s boring and repetitive for giant swaths.

    I’m finishing the 4th book of this series now. The problem with his books, as I see it, is that he has an annoying habit of inventing stuff which he, in best case scenario, explains about a 1000 pages later, and in general case never explains at all. His characters rarely change and rarely seem human at all. He’s also very fond of deus ex machina.
    He does build a compelling world which is fun to read about and to find out about and that’s enough for me to continue with his books. If only he knew how to fill it with equally compelling characters, those books would be great.

  230. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    Does anyone know the 7+DVR+online numbers for the Blackwater episode?

  231. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    I’m going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

    Erikson is far from sloppy. He writes a very convoluted tale which weaves through multiple thousand page novels. A sloppy writer could hardly pull this off. I have seen several people mention their dislike of what they obliquely refer to as his deus ex machina situations, yet completely ignore any foreshadowing that lead to it, sometimes many novels before.

    I love Grrm, don’t get me wrong. I have a first edition hardcover of GoT that is my favorite book in my collection. I love his characters, his willingness and ability to shock you with real life levels of despair. His series is perfect for television, something HBO can attest to with their ratings figures.

    …all that being said, I think the Malazan Book of the Fallen is a tier above A Song of Ice and Fire when we look at them as book series.

    I see it like this, Erikson has written ten novels in one series, each has their pros and cons, but most people can agree that at least 7 of them were exemplary. George has written 5 novels, and as far as I can tell, people consider at the most, 3, to be above average. 70% is better than 60% if my math has not failed me horribly.

    I’m not going to lie, the MBotF is not an easy series to read. It takes certain characteristics inherent in the reader in order to have some tenuous grasp on the multitude of threads running through the novels. Not everyone gets it, not everyone likes it. Some grasp all the threads and love it, some do and don’t.

    I am one of the ones that appreciate what a mammoth accomplishment it is, and although I do not love every book in the series, I am comfortable saying that MBotF is overall a better read than ASoIaF. Does this mean I think George’s series is bad? No, far from it. It is awesome on a myriad of levels and I look forward to it’s duo of yet-to-be-written entries.

    Anyhow, my long-winded two cents have now been deposited. Please continue with your previous activities.

  232. Tar Kidho
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    Hey people, just so that you don’t forget it when you’re comparing two of the most impressive fantasy authors with styles too different to compare*, because of what some troll said, that the last episode of GoT actually got really good ratings!!!

    *and now I let myself being sucked into this stupid debate as well: GRRM is the technically more gifted writer and is second to none in creating very compelling characters, whereas Erikson focusses much more on creating a compelling world that is massive in scale. I enjoyed the series of both authors and don’t feel the need to find one series better than the other. As for the writers themselves, I’d choose to go for a drink with GRRM rather than Erikson, because yes, the latter comes across as very pompous… (I nearly didn’t start reading the first book in the series after reading a forword by Erikson, but I’m glad I didn’t let it stop me) To friends that have not read fantasy before, I would advice neither ASOIAF (not yet finished) or MBOTF (way too long and complex), but rather the Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.

    [edit: let's say it differently: if you consider yourselve a fan of epic fantasy, than you NEED to read both series, point.]

  233. James
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:00 am | Permalink

    Great news, I cant wait until all those `happy` weddings. And I have to ask, do you, guys, understand, what adaptation means? It`s not about every detail from the books, or just transfering lines. This season, by all standards, was great. I didn`t like book 2, but season was apsolutely great concerning several characters. I adored Cersei, Tyrion and Sansa this season, and I have to say, every change they made, actually worked for me. Tywin and Arya, Margaery`s ambition, Dany`s dragons got stolen. Of course, we all expecvt next season being even better, but let`s face it, SOS is ten million time better for adaptation than COK. As I said, can`t wait for the weddings…

  234. SugarVampire
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets:
    Linda from Westeros.org went ahead and created a thread in the forum for the season two finale about how this show is not truly an adaptation anymore, but something akin to a fan-fic because the House of the Undying contained no prophecies. It is utterly hilarious, but also kind of sad that some people can be such miserable cunts.

    First of all, I don’t know why after 200+ comments, no one found it offensive that PoM has used the C-word on Linda of Westeros.org just because he/she didn’t like her reaction to GoT season 2 final.

    Second, why would commentators drag opinions from other forums to this site while bitterly complain about others not cheering for the great ratings news?

    Folks, please stop worrying about GoT being cancelled or not come to a conclusion. It is in the bag with all these buzz in tinseltown and around the world. D&D are big boys. They can take the critisms, warranted or not.

    Please keep discussions civilized. In the end, only good works and valid opinions can stand the test of time. Peace.

  235. WinterComing
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire: First of all, I don’t know why after 200+ comments, no one found it offensive that PoM has used the C-word on Linda of Westeros.org just because he/she didn’t like her reaction to GoT season 2 final.

    Because no one wants to rehash the Asha v Yara cunt issue again? ;)
    And it’s not just because she didn’t like the finale, I think it’s that she nitpicks every episode to death or so I’ve heard. I’ve never been tempted to read anything by Elio and Linda.

  236. Stephen
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    I know it does not happen in book 3 but why can’t melisandre send another vagina smoke dude to kill Joffrey. Hmmm but I guess the fanny monster can only kill one bad guy at a time so she would need to produce like 1000 vadge smokies to weaken Kings Landing enough to conquer it again. I’m not sure Stannis has that much semen.

  237. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets:
    “Linda from Westeros.org went ahead and created a thread in the forum for the season two finale about how this show is not truly an adaptation anymore, but something akin to a fan-fic because the House of the Undying contained no prophecies. It is utterly hilarious, but also kind of sad that some people can be such miserable cunts.”

    “First of all, I don’t know why after 200+ comments, no one found it offensive that PoM has used the C-word on Linda of Westeros.org just because he/she didn’t like her reaction to GoT season 2 final.”

    Re-read the last sentence of the first paragraph above. He didnt call her a cunt, but called people like her cunts. cunt has become non-gender specific. And no, I dont find it offensive when it is appropriate :)

  238. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    Second, why would commentators drag opinions from other forums to this site while bitterly complain about others not cheering for the great ratings news?

    I haven’t seen much complaining here. Most people are happy about the ratings.

    Offtopic stuff ahead, beware:
    Why people bring Elio and Linda’s opinions here – because those two are considered the faces of ASOIAF books fandom. They have the longest running fansite, they are interviewed by Thronecast as book experts, GRRM even thanked them in ADWD, they work on some encyclopedia with GRRM and so on. It is natural that what they write might be discussed by other people, and some people might disagree with them and even laugh at what they write.
    I would actually want them to publicly disassociate themselves from the adaptation, to come to one of Thronecast episodes (for example) and say “the adaptation sucks, D&D ruined it and we don’t want anything to do with it anymore, thank you”. But to smile on camera while thrashing the adaptation and the people behind it on forum and in private blogs is a bit stupid.

  239. Paul
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky,

    I gave up on westeros.org a long time ago. I think that what those two do regarding the show (especially Linda) is disgraceful and pitiable. I am not saying the show is perfect; it obviously isn’t. But to anyone with a shred of decency and objectivity it is clear just how much blood, sweat and talent went into the series on all fronts: acting, directing, costumes, set design, writing, producing… It is a labor of love, and IT SHOWS! Yes, D&D missed the mark on several occasions, but the quality and passion are there for all to see. All objections aside, GoT is probably among the most faithful adaptations I have ever seen, more than I could have dared hope, especially having in mind how wretched SF&F adaptations generally are.

    It’s just disheartening and so disappointing seeing those that should appreciate this show the most be so disrespectful and hateful of the very people that may have revolutionized the way SF&F is brought to TV.

    It’s entitled and ungrateful people like Linda and her ilk that give us geeks and nerds a bad name.

  240. Allan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    I havent read the books but as far as I have heard.. next season belongs to Jaime Lannister..
    at the same time this starts airing next year.. “well sorta” a big Tom Cruise sci-fi ‘oblivion’ hits the theaters with Nikolaj Coster Waldau as the second biggest role..

    When people who don’t watch game of thrones see his face on posters and in trailers for this big sci-fi flick or eventually in the film..
    will it boost the ratings when they see the same guy in full armor in entertainment weekly and in trailers for Game of Thrones?
    and how much? .. if this Tom Cruise film turns out to be a big action hit at the same time the season is airing, it could have tremendous effect.

  241. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    DB,

    Malazan was just a bore i had to quit after Book 3 and i usually never quit a serie.
    To each their own i guess but i would put Malazan with Sword of truth, the only other serie i couldn’t finish. And as in Sword of truth i wouldn’t want to keep any “life lessons” presented in those books.
    Wheel of time is fun without substance, Malazan is the same except it’s not even fun.

    Anyway, back to the topic, very good news, i really like what they did this season except for a few nitpicks (and i’ll wait to see if it’s corrected/explored in more depth later before passing judgement) so i’m glad the ratings are there to reward HBO and D&D for their work.

  242. The_Rabbit01
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Malazan: Seven know I tried. Reached the page 80, then quit.

  243. Weirwood
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire: First of all, I don’t know why after 200+ comments, no one found it offensive that PoM has used the C-word on Linda of Westeros.org just because he/she didn’t like her reaction to GoT season 2 final.

    I am not offended because it is used so readily on the show and in the books. And Linda herself uses the word. And besides….. it fits.

  244. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Paul,

    I have maybe 10 posts there. It’s not even fun to lurk the forums, which is what I mostly do on sites like this.

    I am not saying the show is perfect; it obviously isn’t.

    It isn’t indeed, but the books aren’t perfect either (far from perfect, in fact). Still, it’s a damn good show and a good adaptation, made by people who do care about the source material. I actually believe that the show can fix and improve some stuff from AFFC and ADWD that I didn’t like.

    All objections aside, GoT is probably among the most faithful adaptations I have ever seen, more than I could have dared hope, especially having in mind how wretched SF&F adaptations generally are.

    Agreed.

    It’s just disheartening and so disappointing seeing those that should appreciate this show the most be so disrespectful and hateful of the very people that may have revolutionized the way SF&F is brought to TV.

    No one should appreciate the show, it’s a matter of taste, but if you are in the position of Westeros folks, you better be honest about your opinions.

  245. paylor
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    Lannister_accountant,

    Ha! Westeros.org as hip? I don’t think so. I think they are about as far opposite of hip as you can be. Don’t you know, this is where all the cool kids hang out? ;-) And lindaaa is not allowed to sit at the their table.

  246. john
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    Because the description “miserable cunt” perfectly describes her?

    Yup.

  247. Silver fox
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Onion:  Its a bit sad. I wish I could pity these whiners, but I dont.

    Likewise if you were having lunch with a friend and he took time to tell you why he didn’t like the show, you probably wouldn’t call him a whiner who doesn’t deserve an opinion to his face.

    Anyway, I don’t know why I bother with you people.

  248. paylor
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    Onion,

    Hate the c-word. I think it has more negative connotations here in the United States than it does in other areas of the world.

    But when I think of lindaaa I immediately think of the c-word because she has used that term. She bashed those people who like and read fan-fiction as people with “c-stained fingers.” Pretty gross. It became a hilarious theme associated with her on tumblr.

  249. Rygar
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    Guys, there are so many more interesting arguments we could discuss between GRRM and Erikson than who is a better novelist.
    1) Who would win in a hot oil wrestling match?
    2) Who would make a better Batman?
    3) Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?
    4) Who would be the first one to kiss the girl with the poo poo face and cooties?
    5) Who would you rather have in goal for game seven of the Stanley Cup Finals.

    I have George for three and Erikson for the other two. George wins.

  250. Klavonivs
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    OMG, book purists please go away and be amongst friends on “another site”!!! GRRM has already said that this is an ADAPTATION of his books and the originals are to be considered cannon, not the show…..meaning…..IT’S A FICTIONAL SHOW BASED OFF OF A FICTIONAL BOOK SERIES THAT IS FICTION, FICTION, FICTION!!!!! I for one am loving the series and the slight changes that are made. I don’t think I’ve ever read a book and then seen a movie/tv show based on it and said “wow it’s 100% just like the book, word for word!!!” For example, Master and Commander: The Far Side Of The World was a phenomenal book and movie, but they had to make slight changes to it in order for it to fit into a 3 hour movie. They both can stand alone on their own as does GOT and ASOIAF!! You can’t cram everything into 10 hours and I applaud D&D for extending some things that were only grazed upon in the books (i.e. Robb’s love interest with Talisa/Jeyne). It worked well enough in the books, but viewers would be like WTF, why did he/she do that for no apparant reason if they did not show it. I do understand that some people have a lot of passion for the books and I’m happy for them, but it’s sometimes fans like this that RUIN a book/tv series as well. If you don’t like the show, fine, turn it off and read the books…don’t go messing it up for the rest of the millions that do enjoy it.

    I, like many, read the books and, shockingly, am loving the tv show…go figure!!

  251. Andrew
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Silver fox,

    Well, if he was reasonably and coherently explaining why he felt a change did not truly represent the heart of the story or character, no i would not call him a whiner. If he started waving his sandwich around screaming about how a storyline has been completely ruined and the show isnt even ASoIaF anymore, than I would most certainly call him a whiner. And probobly slap him, but thats just me.

    If you arent going to take the time to defend your position properly, dont get angry when people dismiss you.

  252. Zack
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Omar Brown: book 4 was really awful in many parts. Actually I wouldn’t mind if D&D invent stuff to fix it, since a literal adaptation could actually make the show tank.

    lol

    /agree

    I like much of what happens in those books–for one thing, I feel like the Dornish and ironborn plotlines are unfairly maligned because at the start of the series, we’re led to believe it’s going to be a conflict of Stark v. Lannister, and when one of those houses is all but wiped out fairly early on, people have a hard time adjusting to the necessary inclusion of other areas? I wouldn’t say that’s true of every case, but some, surely. So I like that the conflict broadens in the latter books. A lot of the characters also have really fascinating inner journeys.

    But they’re really slow books, not much -happens-. I don’t envy the task of translating them to screen. There’s stuff that works that won’t on screen, such as the monologues. And then stuff that didn’t really work in the books that we have no reason to expect will be any different on screen. I hope by saying that nobody goes and confuses me with DB, lol. The man is a fantastic writer, one of the best. Not infallible.

    There almost has to be much more ‘new’ material for both seasons than we’ve yet seen, which makes me very happy since aside from excessive sexposition, the majority of scenes invented for HBO have worked for me. When I don’t have a scene in my mind that the show cannot match, but something new, it’s easier to be happy.

  253. Paul
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky,

    It isn’t indeed, but the books aren’t perfect either (far from perfect, in fact). Still, it’s a damn good show and a good adaptation, made by people who do care about the source material. I actually believe that the show can fix and improve some stuff from AFFC and ADWD that I didn’t like.

    Agreed. Some of the stuff from those two books are in dire need of improvement.

    No one should appreciate the show, it’s a matter of taste, but if you are in the position of Westeros folks, you better be honest about your opinions.

    Of course it’s good to be honest, no doibt about that. If they don’t like it, they don’t like it. However, I used the word “appreciate” on purpose. If you don’t like something, you can still appreciate it. And I think a well-intenioned person, whatever he or she may feel about the show, has to appreciate what D&D accomplished, the enthusiasm and passion they tackled this mindboggling job with.

    Elio and Linda, however, aren’t just any person. They are, as was said, the public face of fandom, people in a semi-official capacity where the books are concerned. For them (or her, Linda) to spit such bile, to be so condescending and frankly hateful towards the show is embarassing to say the least. If she were a non-aligned critic, her critiques would be the laughing stock of her colleagues and readers. Rude, unobjective, hysterical and dogmatic, that’s what she appears like.

    Again, I have no beef with people not liking this or that, or having a generally low opinion of the show, but that kind of infantile hysteria befits a child not an adult whose words carry some weight in fandom.

  254. paylor
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    Remaal,

    Here’s a case where I think they might improve a character. All I’ve got to say is that he better be smoking hot to make us understand what Dany sees in him.

  255. Silver fox
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Andrew: If you arent going to take the time to defend your position properly, dont get angry when people dismiss you.

    I’m not angry, but yes I don’t have the energy. Though after I posted, I realized I meant to quote this instead:

    review sites allow people with no voice “empowerment” and of the only kind they can truly deal with, anonymous empowerment, because they simply would never act that way in public

    The rest of his schtick is just fuel for fire.

    There’s a rather lot of negativity in the fandom. You have to be in one camp or the other or you’re dead.

    Me, I like to walk my own path. I’d rather watch a show without knowing what a hundred frustrated people want other people to think.

  256. Silver fox
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    Andrew: If you arent going to take the time to defend your position properly, dont get angry when people dismiss you.

    I’m not angry, but yes I don’t have the energy for this community. Though after I posted, I realized I meant to quote this instead:

    review sites allow people with no voice “empowerment” and of the only kind they can truly deal with, anonymous empowerment, because they simply would never act that way in public

    The rest of his schtick is just fuel for fire. Just typical useless flames.

    There’s a rather lot of negativity in this fandom. You have to be in one camp or the other or you’re just going to have to act like a school teacher to defend in the simplest terms what would otherwise be a light adult discussion about a trivial, fun thing like a fantasy tv show. It’s not that important to me.

    Edit: my first post said Not Published Please Edit Your Comment.

  257. Andrija Andrew
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC…

    We are discussing the ratings here, not personal frustrations of some who would do well to find some professional help… I wonder if we will launch season 3 with a 4.5 million mark or somewhat lower.. I am also wondering whether D&D will structure the next couple of seasons in such a way that each one will end with a wedding, RW and PW resp…

  258. RitariKnight
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Getting back on topic, here’s the exact figures for the season finale from TV by the Numbers:

    Initial airing 4.202 million viewers, 2.2 demo
    Re-run 0.910 million viewers, 0.44 demo

    Overall for Sunday 5.112 million viewers

  259. The Kingslayer
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Music to my ears, this is great news.

  260. Andrew
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    RitariKnight,

    Was the rerun on much later in America as well? In Canada, it came on later than usual. Its the only episode ive only watched once, actually.

  261. serum
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky,

    I think linda might be high on bath salts! Im a book reader and I dont mind people who didnt like the show but to say the writing is terrible is simply not true and thats not a matter of opinion, its a fact! As for my opinion, I think they’ve done a tremendous job so far considering what they are up against. I applaud them at every turn and couldn’t be happier, word can’t describe how great I think the show really is!

  262. gfpatten
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Thank you for such great news!! Thank you Winter Is Coming!! Thank you D&D!! Thank you GRRM!! Thank you HBO!! And thanks to all the cast and crew on GOT for a great job!! It is wonderful to see the numbers end on a new high note!! Cannot wait for Season 3!!

  263. Allan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    what a bashing forum…

  264. Weirwood
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    paylor:
    Onion,

    Hate the c-word. I think it has more negative connotations here in the United States than it does in other areas of the world.

    But when I think of lindaaa I immediately think of the c-word because she has used that term. She bashed those people who like and read fan-fiction as people with “c-stained fingers.” Pretty gross. It became a hilarious theme associated with her on tumblr.

    Well, maybe in the new ASOIAF Encyclopedia they will just use Linda’s photo under the definition…..? ;)

  265. Weirwood
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    Paul:
    Alex Dubrovsky,

    Agreed. Some of the stuff from those two books are in dire need of improvement.

    Of course it’s good to be honest, no doibt about that. If they don’t like it, they don’t like it. However, I used the word “appreciate” on purpose. If you don’t like something, you can still appreciate it. And I think a well-intenioned person, whatever he or she may feel about the show, has to appreciate what D&D accomplished, the enthusiasm and passion they tackled this mindboggling job with.

    Elio and Linda, however, aren’t just any person. They are, as was said, the public face of fandom, people in a semi-official capacity where the books are concerned. For them (or her, Linda) to spit such bile, to be so condescending and frankly hateful towards the show is embarassing to say the least. If she were a non-aligned critic, her critiques would be the laughing stock of her colleagues and readers. Rude, unobjective, hysterical and dogmatic, that’s what she appears like.

    Again, I have no beef with people not liking this or that, or having a generally low opinion of the show, but that kind of infantile hysteria befits a child not an adult whose words carry some weight in fandom.

    I think George gets a kick out of people who are so obsessed with his work that he has to go to them to be reminded of character descriptions and story arcs! Seriously, Linda and Elio spend way more time working on ASOIAF than GRRM ever has…… maybe he should let them finish the series (I’m kidding, I’m kidding)…. but if I were him, I would definitely hire a food taster before eating at their house….

  266. Wes
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    SillyMammo,

    You liked it, that’s fine, but all of those scenes were completely hollow. I read someone refer to it as Arya’s vacation at Harrenhal. There was no character progression. There was no drama. There was no climax. This is bad writing. Like I said before, D&D don’t know what makes good story telling. It seems as though they just liked the Tywin character and thought it would be totally super cool if Arya talked to him and stuff.

    Here we go. Arya’s arc in season two is a good example. The problem wasn’t even that they changed things but that they didn’t have any character progression or even a real climax. There needed to be some type of climax/resolution in the Arya/Tywin arc they created.

  267. serum
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Wes,

    They did resolve it, she was a captive and now she’s escaped harrenhal with gendry and hot pie and met up with jaqen aftwerwards to receive the coin and phrase and now she is on to her next adventure.

  268. RitariKnight
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Andrew:
    RitariKnight,

    Was the rerun on much later in America as well? In Canada, it came on later than usual. Its the only episode ive only watched once, actually.

    Not really, it started at 11.14pm Eastern time so that’s ten minutes later than usual which is explained by the longer than usual run-time of the episode which made the programming (Veeps and Girls) in-between the two showings start ten minutes later than usual.

  269. Kingthlayer
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    I always thought that the Malazan BotF would make an amazing anime series – it seems build for that medium to me. I’ve only read a book and a half and I love the visuals and the dialogue but like others I don’t really see it as being a truly “human” story (meaning that it doesn’t seem to relay as many human lessons to me as ASoIaF). The “bone phone” by the way is incredibly cheesy. Actually could anyone recommend a good “primer” for the world of the Malazan series? I often need clarification on what the different types of beings are supposed to be. I am not “hooked” enough into the series and so I take long breaks in between reading and get lost when I return.

    Back on topic – great news on the ratings. I am not surprised. Season 3 will be epic.

  270. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    From his DVD commentary and other interviews it seems George is fine with changes in the adaptation, he has been through the Hollywood wringer as a writer and producer. He knows the process and seems very happy how things are going with the show.

  271. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Key of Awesome made a great Game of Thrones video that I think people here will enjoy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapo0h-RDnk&feature=g-u-u&hd=1

  272. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Wes: Here we go. Arya’s arc in season two is a good example. The problem wasn’t even that they changed things but that they didn’t have any character progression or even a real climax. There needed to be some type of climax/resolution in the Arya/Tywin arc they created.

    Arya’s story is one long progression over the books, and it’s always going to feel slow when broken into segments.

    As for Arya’s story here, I do agree that having her killing someone consciously in the escape would have been a better choice.

    I don’t know why they didn’t. I do think that perhaps they thought consciously using a hit man was a good first step and they’d space out her progression over time. After all, while Arya does lose her family in Season 3, there’s two whole seasons where her progression along the path of losing her identity as a Stark involves very little progression. Saving some for a bigger moment later may be the plan. It could also be a miss.

    But I think it’s also unfair to say there’s been no progression. Arya is clearly both learning to be more ruthless from Tywin, demonstrating her own independence, and exercising more of her own personal ruthlessness by consciously ordering the deaths of many men. To act like the book really had much more in terms of that road is somewhat disingenuous to me.

    It came across flat to me as well. For one, more action might have been nice. For two, because Arya really shows no remorse — and doesn’t in the book — a book departure where she actually considers what she does might have been welcome in terms of building a character arc. In TV and movies, you need to see the point of decision. Arya is a realistic young girl because there is no point of decision, at least consciously. That makes for realistic writing but mediocre tv. (This is also why we get more vicious characters in TV — if we’re not going to have moments of indecision and remorse, we need to punctuate actions).

    I don’t think it was one of the better well done elements (like say, Theon’s arc). But they weren’t working with super great material for television, nor a particularly defined arc (since it really progresses through all books and especially through Book 3). And to say there was no progression is simply not right.

  273. SugarVampire
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Wow. I am quite surprised and disappointed by the vindictiveness and foul name calling of some of the posts in this thread.

    Reputations are gained or lost by one’s words in the internet. No one is immune.

    I sincerely hope that none of the 4 moderators of this site has time to see what is happening here.

    Riverlands in AFfC :(

  274. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown:
    Weirwood,

    From hisDVD commentary and other interviews it seems George is fine with changes in the adaptation, he has been through the Hollywood wringer as a writer and producer. He knows the process and seems very happy how things are going with the show.

    The way I read between the lines on George is this: I’m sure he’s unhappy with many of the changes. I’m sure there are some he really likes and some he’s fine with.

    But at the end of the day, he’s mature enough and understands the dynamic well enough that he’s overall happy with the series. I can imagine maybe he’s very unhappy with the HotU at first (who knows? maybe not), but rationally he knows the adaptation has been overall very strong across the board.

    Along the lines this debate has gotten very polarized. For me, I don’t mind criticism but the hyperbole associated with it. And that means many on the other side respond in kind. But I think George realized and realizes that there’s going to be a lot of changes he dislikes no matter who does it.

    And I expect he is overall fairly happy with it considering the alternatives — I think he thinks he got a good arrangement.

  275. OGTargaryen
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    good news, but unfortunately the GoT rpg failed so badly..

  276. Wes
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    serum:
    Wes,

    They did resolve it, she was a captive and now she’s escaped harrenhal with gendry and hot pie and met up with jaqen aftwerwards to receive the coin and phrase and now she is on to her next adventure.

    They created an expectation and tension by creating the Arya and Tywin arc, then they just completely dropped it by having Tywin leave without any sort of climax. I am NOT saying there should have been a fight. I’m NOT saying he should have figured out who she was. I understand why they paired the two together, but in so doing they created a new plot and expectation and then left the viewer feeling completely unfulfilled. How would you like to read a story where the character is in mortal danger because of an enemy, and then that enemy just leaves, then the character deux ex machina’s their way out the situation?

    IMO, one way to resolve the issue would have been to have Arya in her rush to name Tywin (without Tywin having left yet), but then she falls into some sort of danger. Tywin then somehow saves her (it doesn’t have to be in any sweet type of way) and then she bumps into Jaqen, he prompts her for a name, but she finds that she can’t make herself Tywin anymore. He leaves, and something is learned.

    Or perhaps when Arya falls into danger while going to name Tywin, some other enemy whose already been established (Amory Lorch would have been a good one if they hadn’t already killed him) somehow prevents her from naming him, and Tywin leaves, and she has to resolve the situation herself.

    Those are just very brief ideas I had.

    I didn’t feel like the Tywin/Arya arc got a satisfying climax or resolution (note: satisfying does not mean happy). It was anticlimactic. I’m not asking for a MAJOR, event, just some type of payoff to the arc and the tension/expectation built. Creating and meeting expectations (again, by expectation I don’t mean “Hey, from this conversation with Varys I expect Ned’s going to the Wall”, I’m talking about a much broader term that means “hey, this conflict is introduced and I expect this arc to come to a head at some point”. We also expect a character to have learned something / developed over the course of the arc. The moment where Arya slits the guard’s throat in the books during her escape is the moment it’s demonstrated. (I’m not saying they needed to keep to keep that same moment, they needed to demonstrate that she’s changed/learned something/developed in some way).

    It’s just part of the rules of good story-telling. (A good story-teller knows when to break the rules, but I don’t feel that the Arya/Tywin arc was a good way of breaking it).

    If the writers are going to change parts of the story, they need to know what expectations they’re creating and resolve them.

    I suppose not everything in there needed to be blacked out. There’s no discussion of future plot points, just a discussion of the Arya/Tywin arc in the show, a little comparison with the comparable arc in the book, and some brief speculation on how I think the arc could have been improved.

  277. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood: Well, maybe in the new ASOIAF Encyclopedia they will just use Linda’s photo under the definition…..? ;)

    I have to say that I didn’t even see the word in Pastor’s first post. I kind of gloss over things like that.

    That said, it’s extreme to call someone that. I don’t agree with her post; don’t really get her point of view and I think as someone who represents themselves as semi-official and more, posted a reactionary and over-emotional post that frankly came off as childish.

    But she’s not the only person ever to do that. And that doesn’t make her a c*nt. Heck, it doesn’t even make her childish — I don’t know her. My experience with her posts on that board has been her acting very childishly — we got in a debate earlier this year where she got instantly personal and then Ran deleted several of my rational responses (and left her comment that I was too dumb to understand the books properly).

    But that word isn’t one I’d use lightly.

  278. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Wes: They created an expectation and tension by creating the Arya and Tywin arc, then they just completely dropped it by having Tywin leave without any sort of climax. I am NOT saying there should have been a fight. I’m NOT saying he should have figured out who she was. I understand why they paired the two together, but in so doing they created a new plot and expectation and then left the viewer feeling completely unfulfilled. How would you like to read a story where the character is in mortal danger because of an enemy, and then that enemy just leaves, then the character deux ex machina’s their way out the situation?


    IMO, one way to resolve the issue would have been to have Arya in her rush to name Tywin (without Tywin having left yet), but then she falls into some sort of danger. Tywin then somehow saves her (it doesn’t have to be in any sweet type of way) and then she bumps into Jaqen, he prompts her for a name, but she finds that she can’t make herself Tywin anymore. He leaves, and something is learned.

    Or perhaps when Arya falls into danger while going to name Tywin, some other enemy whose already been established (Amory Lorch would have been a good one if they hadn’t already killed him) somehow prevents her from naming him, and Tywin leaves, and she has to resolve the situation herself.

    Those are just very brief ideas I had.

    I didn’t feel like the Tywin/Arya arc got a satisfying climax or resolution (note: satisfying does not mean happy). It was anticlimactic. I’m not asking for a MAJOR, event, just some type of payoff to the arc and the tension/expectation built. Creating and meeting expectations (again, by expectation I don’t mean “Hey, from this conversation with Varys I expect Ned’s going to the Wall”, I’m talking about a much broader term that means “hey, this conflict is introduced and I expect this arc to come to a head at some point”. We also expect a character to have learned something / developed over the course of the arc. The moment where Arya slits the guard’s throat in the books during her escape is the moment it’s demonstrated. (I’m not saying they needed to keep to keep that same moment, they needed to demonstrate that she’s changed/learned something/developed in some way).

    It’s just part of the rules of good story-telling. (A good story-teller knows when to break the rules, but I don’t feel that the Arya/Tywin arc was a good way of breaking it).

    If the writers are going to change parts of the story, they need to know what expectations they’re creating and resolve them.

    I suppose not everything in there needed to be blacked out. There’s no discussion of future plot points, just a discussion of the Arya/Tywin arc in the show, a little comparison with the comparable arc in the book, and some brief speculation on how I think the arc could have been improved.

    I posted something in agreement with much of this. I just think she did progress slightly and learn something; I agree the climax was not particularly stunning.

    One thing you do run into as you create those ethical dilemmas as I noted is that the cry over changing Arya’s character would be epic. It wouldn’t be a real change to my mind (note the Hound) but man, a lot of people would see it that way.

    I think simply putting the conscious murder of the guard in would have done it as well. Or even just making her stay a day under Gregor’s care and having him pull a Weese so there was a sense she needed to leave.

  279. LordStarkington
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    SugarVampire:
    Wow.I am quite surprised and disappointed by the vindictiveness and foul name calling of some of the posts in this thread.

    Unfortunately, it’s not just limited to here – the westeros forums for the TV show have gotten pretty nasty (to the point where I basically ignore them now); having an established, passionate fanbase from the books is both a curse and a blessing, methinks.

  280. Wes
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    I had intended pretty much all of my entire previous post to be blacked out. I don’t think there’s anything that breaks the rules, but if there is, please delete it.

  281. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    On last thing I’d say, Wes, is that there’s also a gap between writing something, knowing you need a climax, and then it falling a bit flat.

    They did have Arya running to find Jaqen, they did have Jaqen and some tension of the guards just being there. They tried to add danger with Littlefinger and Tywin figuring her out. It didn’t work for some people (me included). It was fun, interesting, but didn’t pop at the end.

    But sometimes you write something and it feels like it should pop, but on screen something happens. Or in production.

    I think all the writers understand storytelling and story arcs. It annoys me when people act like successful script writers and novelists know less about what is needed than people who have read the internet. They aren’t awful writers and they aren’t uneducated in the need for these things. I do think they have a hard job in trying to manufacturer story arcs where George has them span seasons.

    But sometimes they have one and the execution forces a change or simply fails. As a writer you rely on so much in film and tv. The blanket statement that they don’t know these basic rules of storytelling or that they are too arrogrant to follow them is an incredible amount of arrogance on our parts as fans.

    They are professionals. I think I’m right more often than not in that they know what they are doing, and while not perfect, many of the choices we don’t like are ones without better options at the time and situation.

  282. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Silver fox: Likewise if you were having lunch with a friend and he took time to tell you why he didn’t like the show, you probably wouldn’t call him a whiner who doesn’t deserve an opinion to his face. Anyway, I don’t know why I bother with you people.

    Actually, the closer the friend, the more likely I’d be to call him a whiner and to STFU. It’s loose acquaintances that you have to tiptoe around.

    But then I don’t personally call people who don’t like the show whiners. Unless they whine about it. Repeatedly. At length.

  283. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Linda’s own propensity for the word cunt, and her general attitude towards things that she feels are below her are what inspired its usage. I never specifically called her or anyone else a cunt. For any here who were offended, I submit the phrase, “Call ‘em as I see ‘em…” to my defense. In other news, Game of Thrones received two nominations for the Critics’ Choice Awards – best drama series and best supporting actor for Peter Dinklage (although I personally feel that Alfie Allen should have joined him on that list)!

  284. serum
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    Wow. I am quite surprised and disappointed by the vindictiveness and foul name calling of some of the posts in this thread.

    Reputations are gained or lost by one’s words in the internet. No one is immune.

    I agree with your first statement but as far as reputations being gained or lost by ones words on the INTERNET. Thats simply not true, EVERYONE is immune as the majority of people use a handle and not their actual names and you could change your handle every time you post if you want therefore your reputation is brand new every time and neither gained nor lost. Thats the beauty and downfall of the internet, no accountability and really no danger, absolute freedom of speech until your are banned from website that is, hahahaha!

  285. Wes
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    You’re right. I understand that, and I should be more clear in my criticism. These writers are certainly more talented than me, and analyzing how a choice plays out after it’s been done is a much easier job than analyzing how a choice will play out before it’s been done.

    I did not mean to imply that the writers don’t know the basic rules of story-telling, and I’m sorry if people thought I was saying that. I’m sure the writers have forgotten more “rules” than I’ve ever learned. The comment that meeting expectations is a rule of good writing was directed at serum as I was trying to explain why the resolution given to us fell flat with me.

  286. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets:
    Alan,

    Linda’s own propensity for the word cunt, and her general attitude towards things that she feels are below her are what inspired its usage. I never specifically called her or anyone else a cunt. For any here who were offended, I submit the phrase, “Call ‘em as I see ‘em…” to my defense. In other news, Game of Thrones received two nominations for the Critics’ Choice Awards – best drama series and best supporting actor for Peter Dinklage (although I personally feel that Alfie Allen should have joined him on that list)!

    Fair enough. I personally don’t take offense, but it’s obviously a touchy subject.

    I’ve definitely experience her scorn — I think my posts tend to be fairly well informed and my parents tell me I’m smart, but to her, “different interpretations” mean “you are too dumb to understand.” That was her first response to me. So I came back at her, and oddly, all my responses — with book citations explaining my point — were deleted as rude and disrespectful, but her comment that I was an idiot remained and was left unrefuted.

    C’est la vie. I like a good argument, so I still post over there, especially since some of the book dialogue is great. But I don’t directly respond to her because of the way she acts.

  287. More Rice Cooks
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    SergioCQH,

    The Tywin/Arya dialogue scenes don’t prove that Arya’s scenes weren’t handled poorly. I’m sorry, but it was indeed bad writing and plot progression. There is no climax or drama to her story whatsoever once Tywin shows up. In the end, she walks out of Harenhel no different than how she came in, nothing significant happened, and it ultimately felt like some one-shot episode that will have little impact on future events for her.

    I’m not a book purist by any stretch, but I would simply ask whether what we got (Arya serving uncle Tywin, that laughably cheesy/convenient Lorch killing, etc) was better than what was in the novel. I realize they would not be able to cast every character from her arc, but more than enough were presented to handle the situation well.

    I find it to be one of the worst written “good” shows on television (I’m comparing it to Breaking Bad, Mad Men, etc). The finale felt like the culmination of that, as multiple arcs ended in unsatisfying ways. Arya continues walking…somewhere. The writers end the ridiculous holding pattern Dany was in for half a season only for her to enter a rather unimaginative HOTU and magically overwhelm Xaro’s guards with her khalasar (about half of which was killed by Xaro’s men a few episodes earlier). Robb goes from King Of The North to doing pretty much nothing, and finally gets married. And don’t forget Ros getting her own special cliff hanger.

    ACOK is certainly a transition novel, but there was more than enough there to end a TV season adequately. Compare last season’s finale to this one, and you’ll realize what we got on sunday honestly felt like a late season episode, not a finale. A bunch of strands that were carelessly let hang for episodes produced next to nothing, and outside of the Others nothing really stuck out. And of course, the Others had that ridiculous “Sam hiding behind a rock” moment. Bleh

    ASOS is my favorite novel of the series, but I’m not getting my hopes up for anything. I just don’t trust the writing, and the directing continues to be lackluster outside of Alan Taylor (who is leaving the show to do Thor 2)

  288. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    With an intense level of investment in a series like ASoIaF comes a feeling of entitlement and protectiveness of both the author and the material. While the rest of us were off having lives, the Westeros.org folks were undertaking a herculean labor and assisting the author in completing the work we all enjoy. That bond, forged over years, can skew the reaction of anyone. They are not drive-by wannabes pontificating on things they know nothing about but devotees with a religious zeal.

    In addition, the author is prohibited from voicing any dissatisfaction with the filmed product, if not by contract, then by the need for self-preservation within the publishing community (who would ever buy the rights to original material if he expected the author to turn on him publicly the first time he changed “Jeyne” to “Talisa”?). For all we know, the Westeros.org folks are voicing GRRM’s private opinions through their posts: it wouldn’t be the first time.

    And when Anne Rice publicly dissed the casting of Tom Cruise in the film version of An Interview with a Vampire only to take back her comments after the film was made, it served as a cautionary tale for an entire generation of fiction writers: keep mouth closed after the check is cashed.

    I disagree with a great deal of what Linda said, but she was honest about her struggle balancing her personal disappointment with her understandable investment in the blog they built over years—and their role in the community. She’s still trying to salvage her relationship with the show (and the benefits it’s brought). She doesn’t always express herself well: who does?

    Westeros.org isn’t the first blog that is having this problem. Each one solves it differently. Some are discontinued, some refocus on book-only discussions, and some continue to thrash out the problems of the adaptations year after year. It’s a free blogosphere: pay your money and take your choice.

  289. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    More Rice Cooks: The Tywin/Arya dialogue scenes don’t prove that Arya’s scenes weren’t handled poorly. I’m sorry, but it was indeed bad writing and plot progression. There is no climax or drama to her story whatsoever once Tywin shows up. In the end, she walks out of Harenhel no different than how she came in, nothing significant happened, and it ultimately felt like some one-shot episode that will have little impact on future events for her.
    I’m not a book purist by any stretch, but I would simply ask whether what we got (Arya serving uncle Tywin, that laughably cheesy/convenient Lorch killing, etc) was better than what was in the novel. I realize they would not be able to cast every character from her arc, but more than enough were presented to handle the situation well.

    I love how you (and others) state their opinion as if it was papal dispensation: “I’m sorry, but the truth is….”

    Ultimately you’re making a false comparison here, because the way the story played out in the books was not going to happen. Roose Bolton was not cast in season 1, thus did not lead the troops in the battle of the Green Fork. The Brave Companions don’t exist yet in the show, so did not end up at Harrenhal. Roose Bolton not being in the area means he doesn’t work with the not-yet-here Brave Companions to take over Harrenhal. Roose Bolton not in Harrenhal means Arya’s scenes as written in the book were impossible.

    Personally I thought Arya learned and grew through her interactions with Tywin, primarily how to be effectively deceptive in the act of becoming somebody else, but also just through getting a feel for the true stakes of the war by eavesdropping on what was occurring. Very different than in the book, yes, but I still thought it worked.

    And above all, their interactions were a joy to watch, and, for both of them to some extent, a joy to experience, even if Arya was in danger the entire time (which she knew, of course). They found in each other relative kindred spirits, and it presented a human side of Tywin that doesn’t appear in the novels. You and others didn’t enjoy that; I and others did. And that’s about the long and short of it.

  290. More Rice Cooks
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Bolton’s absence had little bearing on this, and I’ve already stated a lot of characters could have been cut/replaced and still produced the horror of that place. Do you think nothing bad happened in Harenhel while Tywin was there? Come on. I enjoyed the scenes with him, my point is that ultimately her stay there was inconsequential compared to what we could have gotten.

  291. Arthur
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Simone said she interviewed Alfie (Theon) yesterday.

    Hope WiC will post it soon…

  292. Josh
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    This is TV, not a bad…Arya’s in this story for the long haul…With book 3 being split into two seasons, that means Arya character’s progression get’s pretty stale for a couple of seasons…so instead taking her own her full journey of darkness in Harenhel And becoming sort of a sociopath but we instead saw her responsible for deaths and come face to face with a person who pretty much forced her to think on her feet, live in fear and continue to grow up faster then she needs too. Plus witnessing torture and the like.

    Arya has a long way to go…but given that’s in a TV show, be patient..She’s going to get there and the writers and Maisie will do amazing.

  293. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    With an intense level of investment in a series like ASoIaF comes a feeling of entitlement and protectiveness of both the author and the material. While the rest of us were off having lives, the Westeros.org folks were undertaking a herculean labor and assisting the author in completing the work we all enjoy. That bond, forged over years, can skew the reaction of anyone. They are not drive-by wannabes pontificating on things they know nothing aboutbut devotees with a religious zeal.

    In addition, the author is prohibited from voicing any dissatisfaction with the filmed product, if not by contract, then by the need for self-preservation within the publishing community (who would ever buy the rights to original material if he expected the author to turn on him publicly the first time he changed “Jeyne” to “Talisa”?). For all we know, the Westeros.org folks are voicing GRRM’s private opinions through their posts: it wouldn’t be the first time.

    And when Anne Rice publicly dissed the casting of Tom Cruise in the film version of An Interview with a Vampire only to take back her comments after the film was made, it served as a cautionary tale for an entire generation of fiction writers: keep mouth closed after the check is cashed.

    I disagree with a great deal of what Linda said, but she was honest about her struggle balancing her personal disappointment with her understandable investment in the blog they built over years—and their role in the community. She’s still trying to salvage her relationship with the show (and the benefits it’s brought). She doesn’t always express herself well: who does?

    Westeros.org isn’t the first blog that is having this problem. Each one solves it differently. Some are discontinued, some refocus on book-only discussions, and some continue to thrash out the problems of the adaptations year after year. It’s a free blogosphere: pay your money and take your choice.

    I don’t disagree with any of that. I still think it’s childish to lash out out with your disappointments publicly in any situation, much less when you are semi-official.

    It’s also childish to become very personal very quickly in any disagreement, and then to have any response deleted.

    Furthermore, since she has dedicated an immense amount of time to this (and is getting money for it I assume, so let’s not pretend she’s a martyr here), she should be more understanding of the ridiculous amount of time and effort put into the show.

    This idea that feeling an emotion makes it right to act out in any possible on that emotion… eh, I don’t agree with that.

    She puts her point of view out there — on a discussion board, no less. She should expect disagreement and response and should respond with thought.

    She puts a lot of work into something ASOIF related. So does the entire crew. She should have some respect for their thoughts, expertise and effort instead of acting as if everyone is too stupid to understand ASOIF on her level.

    Frankly, she lost me when they cast XXD. That rant was uncomfortable, to say the least.

  294. Stacia
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Adding a larger part for Tywin at Harrenhal was tv production necessity. Actors who are part of the main cast get paid for every episode, whether they are in it or not, and to get bigger names, they need to have a larger role. That means they have to have multiple cast members in scenes. Otherwise, it will be too fragmented, too much jumping around to different scenes and bigger expenses with new sets.

    Odds were if it was up to HBO, there would have been Lannister battle plans scenes for Charles Dance and Arya at Harrenhal might have been completely cut as irrelevant and completely unrelated to the larger story.

    From the story prospective, it added more to Tywin’s character and made him far more likeable, something I never would have thought was possible. For Arya, I don’t think she came out unchanged, and we are seeing how all of these men – Yoren, Jaqen, and Tywin – are now shaping her.

    Without a much larger plot about Bolton being taken prisoners, if it was simply that Bolton and other Northerners were in the Harrenhal dungeon as prisoners , how would that impact Robb’s forces victories? If the dungeon was full of Northerns who had been captured, wouldn’t that put a different spin on the Lannisters being crushed by Robb’s soldiers? I also find it much more unbelievable that Arya wouldn’t tell Bolton who she was.

    Of all the changes, that was the one that made the most sense. And it’s going to keep happening. To keep the budget down, D&D are going to have to re-use sets and use multiple cast members in scenes. That’s going to result in things like Littlefinger magically traveling around Westeros or characters being places they shouldn’t be. And as long as it’s good TV and makes some sense, I don’t care if it isn’t what’s in the books. I don’t want to see them waste the budget on appeasing the book purists.

  295. Langkard
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    10 months of waiting for the next season to begin. This is the fun part. Now we turn on each other, chew our own legs off, eat our young, burn our bridges, burst our bubbles and piss in each others’ cornflakes while waiting for Season 3. Let the games begin!

  296. Meg
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    More Rice Cooks: I find it to be one of the worst written “good” shows on television

    Mad Men isn’t having a flaw-free season by any means, but I have to agree with this statement.

  297. userj
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    I was disappointed in the finale, but am still hopeful for the next seasons…

    The main issues it seems to me were their attempts to “jazz up” the more “boring” storylines (jon and Danys) by adding more action and/or romance. I think they failed though because they didn’t spend enough time making sure their Additions were well written and carefully crafted. The dany story had multiple plot holes, and the characteriztions of both dany and Jon were significantly altered, and not for the better.

    Since both Jon and Danys story are objectively more interesting in book 3, perhaps they will be more likely to follow the plots and themes as written. I like alterations/additions but only if they are in character and legitimately good writing. Like tywin Arya is season. Like most of the added scenes in season one.

    Also I think d and d need to hire more writers, espcially women writers. I think they were overworked this year and the writing suffered a lot. Also they completely failed to write ANY compelling love stories, despite attempts to do so.

  298. fuelpagan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Alan: But sometimes you write something and it feels like it should pop, but on screen something happens. Or in production.
    I think all the writers understand storytelling and story arcs. It annoys me when people act like successful script writers and novelists know less about what is needed than people who have read the internet. They aren’t awful writers and they aren’t uneducated in the need for these things. I do think they have a hard job in trying to manufacturer story arcs where George has them span seasons.
    But sometimes they have one and the execution forces a change or simply fails. As a writer you rely on so much in film and tv. The blanket statement that they don’t know these basic rules of storytelling or that they are too arrogrant to follow them is an incredible amount of arrogance on our parts as fans.
    They are professionals. I think I’m right more often than not in that they know what they are doing, and while not perfect, many of the choices we don’t like are ones without better options at the time and situation.

    This is an excellent point. It points directly to my problem with Jon’s storyline. From a script standpoint it hits the right note. But in the completed product I feel it missed the point. A rushed line here in a noisy setting, just didn’t work.

    But D&D are more than just the writers, they are also the show runners. So they oversee the whole production and we know they have gone back in to fix scenes like Yoren talking to Arya. Still being so close to the production for a 10 hour movie, produced in a single year, mistakes are going to happen.

    john: Because the description “miserable cunt” perfectly describes her?
    Yup.

    As much as I hate that word, I would have to agree.

  299. Robbb
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Just read Linda’s comments – wow, so childish its comical. Can’t wait for her video extra on this one – I mean is she going to spew as much bile in her video clip? Its obvious she has little respect for D&D, but she’s pretty much spent the last 20 years kissing GRRM’s ass. Is she going to so thoroughly trash this show that he’s an exec on, a writer on and ardent supporter of? I guess we’ll see in a few hours. Should be interesting…

  300. Morgan King
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    For what its worth, I find Arya’s slower progress towards becoming a badass killing machine compelling. It will make her time at The House of Black & White that much more of a transformation. This season’s emphasis on her ability to conceal her identity over her growing comfortable knifing thugs to be a strong character change if we’re all in this for the long haul.

  301. Lex
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Paul:
    Alex Dubrovsky,

    I gave up on westeros.org a long time ago. I think that what those two do regarding the show (especially Linda) is disgraceful and pitiable. I am not saying the show is perfect; it obviously isn’t. But to anyone with a shred of decency and objectivity it is clear just how much blood, sweat and talent went into the series on all fronts: acting, directing, costumes, set design, writing, producing… It is a labor of love, and IT SHOWS! Yes, D&D missed the mark on several occasions, but the quality and passion are there for all to see. All objections aside, GoT is probably among the most faithful adaptations I have ever seen, more than I could have dared hope, especially having in mind how wretched SF&F adaptations generally are.

    It’s just disheartening and so disappointing seeing those that should appreciate this show the most be so disrespectful and hateful of the very people that may have revolutionized the way SF&F is brought to TV.

    It’s entitled and ungrateful people like Linda and her ilk that give us geeks and nerds a bad name.

    Agreed.

  302. Lex
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Robbb:
    Just read Linda’s comments – wow, so childish its comical.Can’t wait for her video extra on this one – I mean is she going to spew as much bile in her video clip?Its obvious she has little respect for D&D, but she’s pretty much spent the last 20 years kissing GRRM’s ass.Is she going to so thoroughly trash this show that he’s an exec on, a writer on and ardent supporter of?I guess we’ll see in a few hours.Should be interesting…

    It’s a REALLY awkward situation, in my opinion… awkward for all sides… and very unprofessional of Linda.

    I seriously think only Elio should speak as the official voice of Westeros. Even if you disagree with him, he always keeps it pretty classy (by comparison).

  303. Mimsy
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Langkard: Langkard
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
    10 months of waiting for the next season to begin. This is the fun part. Now we turn on each other, chew our own legs off, eat our young, burn our bridges, burst our bubbles and piss in each others’ cornflakes while waiting for Season 3. Let the games begin!

    Wait. Don’t we do that during the season? ;-)

  304. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Robbb: Is she going to so thoroughly trash this show that he’s an exec on, a writer on and ardent supporter of?

    Interesting question. Why would she jeopardize her relationship with GRRM if she were so sure he’d take offense?

    And if there’s one thing the TB experience proves is that no matter what the showrunner says, it’s always just a TV series, with another coming down the road behind it. Alan Ball said things about TB and his commitment to it that could have brought tears to your eyes and still bailed when he lost interest after three seasons. Granted, that’s his M.O., but we should probably assume that everyone in TV is interested in their careers first and any individual project a distant, distant second.

  305. Remaal
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    More Rice Cooks:

    I find it to be one of the worst written “good” shows on television (I’m comparing it to Breaking Bad, Mad Men, etc).

    A fair statement with which I readily agree.

  306. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Meg,

    I’m curious as to how the two of you are classifying the writing as bad. Is it the dialogue? I personally disagree with you two, but I’m honestly curious as to what it is about the writing that you don’t like. I watch a lot of what I consider “good” television (the aforementioned Mad Men, and Breaking Bad, Tremè, Justified, Homeland, Luck, Boardwalk Empire, Sons of Anarchy; just for points of reference), and can’t really say that I’ve noticed any huge margin of disparity in the quality of writing between many (though not all) of them.

  307. The Kingslayer
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    No if only HBO could come to their senses and release the Blu Ray/DVD before Christmas.

  308. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    I would say it is one of the most unevenly written “good” shows on TV as compared to Homeland and Mad Men, in particular. This is understandable in that many writers are in the mix, but it’s a main job of the showrunner, if he’s the head writer, to smooth out those inconsistencies at the review stage in the writer’s room, something perhaps D&D aren’t yet good at. (And I’m certainly not talking about Bryan C. unless he is now head writer in addition to story editor).

  309. SugarVampire
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    serum,

    The reason why people like me repeatedly use the same handle to post in a site is that we stand by our comments, right or wrong, flawed or not. I have the courage to state my opinions and admitted my mistakes using the same handle. I value people’s opinions based on what they posted before. That’s what blogging community does.

    We all spent lots of times reading and posting, positively or negatively, civilly or otherwise, because we care. Please don’t underestimate the effect of maintaining one pseudo reputation, however fleeing it might be, on the overall discourse in a thread or a forum.

    Case in point. It seems to me Linda of westeros has lost quite a lot of respect from many by her poor choice of words and her ultra-passionate arguments in upholding the book’s canonical protray of events. Elios much less so, imho.

    Many previous frequent posters seem to be absent from this thread or the recaps. All the label callings (“purists”, “fanboys”, “whiners”) are quite off putting and tiresome.

    I personally prefer WiC’s site with regard to GoT over westeros.org. It doesn’t mean that I have to put them down here. I don’t read their GoT forums but I doubt that their posters drag this site’s name into their discussions.

    Thanks to WiC, HmR, FaB, OiF (the rabbit) and others’ tireless effort, this site has gained the reputation of THE go to site for GoT news. Fair or unfair, true or false, it is viewed by many to be closely associated with GoT production camp. I think it will be unfortunate for this site to be preceived to be a place hostile to criticisms of the show simply because some ultra passionate fans of GoT drumbeat/name-call/ridicule others.

    Reputations do gain or lose based on one’s words in the internet. Simply posting stuff using a new handle everytime makes one have no reputation/following at all. Don’t think that’s what people wanted when they spent all their times here.

  310. Petter K. Vikestad
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    A lot of people predicted 4,5 mill viewers for the premiere of the second season. That was clearly a bit too optimistic. I think we might get 4,7 for the season 3 finale though. We wont get 5 mill on the initial viewing, I am sure of that.

  311. carcin
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Interesting question. Why would she jeopardize her relationship with GRRM if she were so sure he’d take offense?

    Why would he take offense? He’s been a professional writer for decades, intimately aware that not everyone is going to love every project you’re involved in….

    That’s some crackpot amateur psychology there if we’re suddenly to draw conclusions about the relationship of GRRM and Westeros….

  312. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    carcin: That’s some crackpot amateur psychology there if we’re suddenly to draw conclusions about the relationship of GRRM and Westeros….

    Just call me a grassy knoll theorist.

  313. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    In addition, the author is prohibited from voicing any dissatisfaction with the filmed product, if not by contract, then by the need for self-preservation within the publishing community (who would ever buy the rights to original material if he expected the author to turn on him publicly the first time he changed “Jeyne” to “Talisa”?).

    That didn’t stop Ursula Le Guin from publicly voicing her dissatisfaction with the adaptation of her Earthsea books, after the thing was aired:
    http://locusmag.com/2005/Issues/01LeGuin.html

  314. OGTargaryen
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    i want ot see what linda said about this, where do i find? link please?

  315. LordStarkington
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:34 pm | Permalink
  316. Shelly
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    YES! How glad I am to hear this!

  317. serum
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    SugarVampire,

    I appreciate your opinions and agree with you as far as standing by your comments cause I use serum for all my posts as well. Im simply stating the simple fact that if you dont want to be held accountable you dont have to because you can hide behind a different name, you have the choice to hide behind a different name. Most people on this site, I feel, dont participate in that practice but its a very real thing. Let me put it this way, in my opinion, reputations on the internet mean nothing because none of us actually know the people we are conversing with. I dont log off the computer and say to myself, oh man, my reputation took a serious hit today and I dont say that to myself because no one actually knows me, they know a surface me and a couple of my opinions, that doesnt result in a real impact on my reputation and if you think it does impact your reputation that is fine and that is your opinion and I dont judge you on that.

  318. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky: That didn’t stop Ursula Le Guin from publicly voicing her dissatisfaction with the adaptation of her Earthsea books, after the thing was aired:

    Perhaps the operative words in your post are “after the thing was aired.”
    Charlaine Harris was nothing but full of praise for Alan Ball’s adaptation while AB was at the helm and has been rewarded by having another one of her series picked up for tv adaptation.
    Now that AB is leaving, she’s begun making coded statements to her fandom that she’s not that thrilled with how things have been going recently in Bon Temps and knowing what she knows now, would do things differently.

    However, it still looks like biting the hand that feeds you. As I’ve quoted many times, the most-adapted writer living, Nora Roberts, said (paraphrased) “No matter what they tell you when they are trying to buy the rights, they’re going to do what they’re going to do once you’ve signed the contract.”

  319. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Interesting question. Why would she jeopardize her relationship with GRRM if she were so sure he’d take offense?

    And if there’s one thing the TB experience proves is that no matter what the showrunner says, it’s always just a TV series, with another coming down the road behind it. Alan Ball said things about TB and his commitment to it that could have brought tears to your eyes and still bailed when he lost interest after three seasons. Granted, that’s his M.O., but we should probably assume that everyone in TV is interested in their careers first and any individual project a distant, distant second.

    I feel like a closer parallel for D&D is Peter Jackson. Perhaps not as infatuated with the source material, but still very much fans. They don’t strike me as nearly as arrogant as Ball, and most of their public discourse has mentioned adaptation as more of softening the blow than some kind of arrogant pull to themselves.

    Jackson had the wonderful advantage of shooting the movies mostly at once. Yes, things leaked and people reacted, but he had the time and budget and ability to work mostly unmolested.

  320. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    carcin: Why would he take offense? He’s been a professional writer for decades, intimately aware that not everyone is going to love every project you’re involved in….That’s some crackpot amateur psychology there if we’re suddenly to draw conclusions about the relationship of GRRM and Westeros….

    Not to mention that he doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who takes offense to very much. Except maybe telling him to stop watching football and finish the books….

  321. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Thiago Slash:
    nice news!
    now to make my week better, I just have to read the Twitter Morghulis post!

    How about “Valar Tweetulis”?

  322. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Alan: I feel like a closer parallel for D&D is Peter Jackson. Perhaps not as infatuated with the source material, but still very much fans. They don’t strike me as nearly as arrogant as Ball, and most of their public discourse has mentioned adaptation as more of softening the blow than some kind of arrogant pull to themselves.Jackson had the wonderful advantage of shooting the movies mostly at once. Yes, things leaked and people reacted, but he had the time and budget and ability to work mostly unmolested.

    I’m more of a purist with LOTR than I ever have been with this series. And I think part of it is that I felt like Jackson’s vision of that series was very different than mine, so the general tone of the movies never felt quite right (still loved them in their own right though).

    Whereas I think, thus far, D&D have kept a very similar vibe to what goes on in the novels, even where they diverge from the source material.

  323. Maxwell James
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I would say it is one of the most unevenly written “good” shows on TV as compared to Homeland and Mad Men, in particular.

    I actually agree with that (despite not having seen either Homeland or Mad Men). But I have watched other top-tier dramas like The Wire, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, and GoT is not in their class. Which may be what frustrates so many fans, and particularly readers – because we feel it could be.

    But it doesn’t need to be in that class, to be a brilliant drama that is very much worth my time. Which it is, absolutely.

    The show GoT most reminds me of is Battlestar Galactica – another brilliantly acted, unevenly written “genre drama.” BSG wasn’t perfect – but when it was great, it was really f’n amazing, and very much worth it despite uneven episodes and a disappointing finale. It was the best drama ever in its genre – and one of the best ever, period, even if not quite top-of-the-class.

    And I think GoT is every bit as good as BSG. Maybe, if George can get the ending right (and on time), it can be even better.

    POSTSCRIPT: With regards to the discussion of HOTU – Battlestar also very much represents the dangers of getting too invested in the “mysteries & prophecies” aspect of a narrative. So maybe D&D have been wise to cut back on that.

  324. Macha
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Alan:

    It annoys me when people act like successful script writers and novelists know less about what is needed than people who have read the internet.

    You, sir, have hit the mark, and not only with this phrase. I, for one, am baffled by some people’s sense of entitlement, and possessiveness. Granted, I’ve never had this much contact with fans of an adaptation, so that might be it, maybe I’ll even get used to it in time. I’ve seen a lot of thoughtful criticism of the show on these threads, most of which generated some very interesting discussions.
    But people, enough with the ‘you just don’t get it’ argument. Posing as the only keeper of truth and dissing the show-runnners for simply having a different interpretation of a certain character is, ultimately, quite hypocritical. You, as a fan, are allowed to, and they are huge fans as well, only a blind person, would argue that. It’s because of them you have something to argue in favour or against. You don’t have to agree with everything, no one is holding an axe over your head, but – for heaven’s sake – grant them at least this: that they probably spent a lot more time thinking about the implication of a certain scene/storyline than you have on your posts. It would be far more interesting to discuss why a change was made and why it didn’t deliver than simply going the ‘ugh they’re butchering it because they think they’re better writers than GRRM, who we like to criticize anyway LOL’.

  325. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Robbb,

    Can anyone post a link? I wanna see this drama!

  326. LordStarkington
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:08 pm | Permalink
  327. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    SugarVampire:
    serum,

    The reason why people like me repeatedly use the same handle to post in a site is that we stand by our comments, right or wrong, flawed or not.I have the courage to state my opinions and admitted my mistakes using the same handle. I value people’s opinions based on what they posted before. That’s what blogging community does.

    We all spent lots of times reading and posting, positively or negatively, civilly or otherwise, because we care. Please don’t underestimate the effect of maintaining one pseudo reputation, however fleeing it might be, on the overall discourse in a thread or a forum.

    Case in point. It seems to me Linda of westeros has lost quite a lot of respect from many by her poor choice of words and her ultra-passionate arguments in upholding the book’s canonical protray of events. Elios much less so, imho.

    Many previous frequent posters seem to be absent from this thread or the recaps. All the label callings (“purists”, “fanboys”, “whiners”) are quite off putting and tiresome.

    I personally prefer WiC’s site with regard to GoT over westeros.org. It doesn’t mean that I have to put them down here. I don’t read their GoT forums but I doubt that their posters drag this site’s name into their discussions.

    Thanks to WiC, HmR, FaB, OiF (the rabbit) and others’ tireless effort, this site has gained the reputation of THE go to site for GoT news. Fair or unfair, true or false, it is viewed by many to be closely associated with GoT production camp. I think it will be unfortunate for this site to be preceived to be a place hostile to criticisms of the show simply because some ultra passionate fans of GoT drumbeat/name-call/ridicule others.

    Reputations do gain or lose based on one’s words in the internet. Simply posting stuff using a new handle everytime makes one have no reputation/following at all.Don’t think that’s what people wanted when they spent all their times here.

    That’s all fine. But some people would like to post criticism with massive hyperbole, without facts or explanation and most importantly, view any rebuttal of their posts as “hostile.”

    If people choose to attack the showrunners in an immature manner (They SUCK!), they should not be offended when someone attacks them.

    If people post honest and supported criticism, they should not be offended when someone rebuts them with factual evidence.

    Sometimes people feel that disagreement is some kind of bullying; that a message board is a place where someone should be able to post and vent without anyone being able to respond negatively to their thoughts.

    Respectful I get, but some people actually get upset when you point out factual inaccuracies or disagree.

    I’ve got no issues with people who don’t like things. But massive hyperbole, insulting people you know can’t respond, factual inaccuracies should be called out. And I have little sympathy for people who are disrespectful of people’s hard work but whine when someone is disrespectful to them.

  328. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Macha: You don’t have to agree with everything, no one is holding an axe over your head, but – for heaven’s sake – grant them at least this: that they probably spent a lot more time thinking about the implication of a certain scene/storyline than you have on your posts.

    So you’d think. However, talk to the True Blood fans—and bloggers— who spent four years deconstructing frame by frame the religious, cultural, and literary symbolism in every episode (hey, it’s an Academy-Award-winning screenwriter, he knows what he’s doing, for crying out loud!) only to have Alan Ball admit that he had just thrown a lot of random clues and foreshadowing stuff in the show in the hopes that he’d find a use for it in later seasons and left major plot questions unaddressed—for years— then exiting.

  329. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    DH87: So you’d think. However, talk to the True Blood fans—and bloggers— who spent four years deconstructing frame by frame the religious, cultural, and literary symbolism in every episode (hey, it’s an Academy-Award-winning screenwriter, he knows what he’s doing, for crying out loud!) only to have Alan Ball admit that he had just thrown a lot of random clues and foreshadowing stuff in the show in the hopes that he’d find a use for it in later seasons and left major plot questions unaddressed—for years— then exiting.

    You’re really hung up on this True Blood thing, it’s almost like it was so traumatic that now you’re seeing its threat pop up everywhere.

    Whatever bullshit happened with that show you’re never going to be able to enjoy this one if you’re constantly worried that this show will fall into the same traps. Just because that Ball guy is an asshole doesn’t necessarily mean these guys are.

  330. Remaal
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    More good news:

    Game of Thrones receives 2 TV Critics’ Choice Awards nominations in the Best Drama Series and the Best Supporting Actor in a Drama Series categories.

    The list of nominees in each category:

    BEST DRAMA SERIES

    Breaking Bad
    Downton Abbey
    Game of Thrones
    The Good Wife
    Homeland
    Mad Men

    BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR IN A DRAMA SERIES

    Peter Dinklage (Game of Thrones)
    Giancarlo Esposito (Breaking Bad)
    Neal McDonough (Justified)
    John Noble (Fringe)
    Aaron Paul (Breaking Bad)
    John Slattery (Mad Men)

    Congratulations and good luck to Dinklage and D&D

    Source

  331. Macha
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I cannot argue against that, as I haven’t watched a single episode of TB. Were we discussing TB? I’m not lashing out at you, I’m seriously asking this because I might have skipped some comments. I was specifically referring to D&D, not Alan Ball or other show-runners in general. If you got that impression, I must have been too vague, so my bad.
    Speaking as someone who has followed their interviews and the production process in detail, in my opinion, one can say many things about them, but not that they lack a true passion for the material, or that they haven’t paid a lot of thought into their approach of this series, a lot more thought than many of the posters here.

  332. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Wow, just wow. I am just gonna leave it at that, this has gone off topic enough.
    All I say, is enjoy the show, it’s not perfect, but remember it could’ve been a LOT worse, so much worse.

  333. Watson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    POSTSCRIPT: With regards to the discussion of HOTU – Battlestar also very much represents the dangers of getting too invested in the “mysteries & prophecies” aspect of a narrative. So maybe D&D have been wise to cut back on that.

    I strongly agree with this. Also, since we all know them (or we can know them if we want to), why do prophecies need to be repeated in the show? Does Daenerys ever once take a course of action explicitly on the basis of those prophesies? Would the show have any way of communicating this if she were to do so?

    I tend to think of the House of the Undying as a grab bag of visions and prophecies and I have no problem with the choice to let the visions in the book stand as they are and instead devise new ones for the screen.

    The visions from the book might have worked with some explanation, but actually having an actor read out the 333 prophecies would have created a miserable piece of dead weight in the middle of an otherwise taught conclusion. It could easily have just come out as laughably cheesy. For all we know they may have tried to do it and cut the results. In a book it can work because we the readers know that these passages are really the writer giving us something to chew on, but on screen? Then we would all end up thinking, “what does this character really know of the future and why don’t they have better things to do with that knowledge than parsing out cryptic verbal clues to our protagonists?” Sounds like a pretty efficient way to kill off any sense of drama.

    I think they made the right call.

  334. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: You’re really hung up on this True Blood thing, it’s almost like it was so traumatic that now you’re seeing its threat pop up everywhere.

    Sorry if it seems so—I use the example of TB because (1) it’s currently HBO’s top ratings-producer and is being overseen by the same management (2) it’s a similar genre (3) it’s an adaptation from a long-running book series (4) it’s two years ahead of GOT in its development (5) its fandom has split along exactly the same fault lines and (6) my references to other shows, screenwriters, and authors, from Hemingway to Gellhorn, Nora Roberts, Robert E. Sherwood, William Inge, to Spartacus, and Homeland, seem to receive little or no response.

  335. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Sorry if it seems so—I use the example of TB because (1) it’s currently HBO’s top ratings-producer and is being overseen by the same management (2) it’s a similar genre (3) it’s an adaptation from a long-running book series (4) it’s two years ahead of GOT in its development (5) its fandom has split along exactly the same fault lines and (6) my references to other shows and books, from Hemingway to Gellhorn, Nora Roberts, Robert E. Sherwood, William Inge, to Spartacus, and Homeland, seem to receive little or no response.

    Got it, thanks.

    Is the author of the True Blood books an executive producer and/or have any hand in writing the series or did they ever? Because I think GRRM’s presence (however small) on the creative team may ensure this series doesn’t go down that road.

  336. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    This comment thread proves that we need a proper forum here! Lots of smart peeps, would love to discuss stuff in a proper manner.

  337. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown: This comment thread proves that we need a proper forum here! Lots of smart peeps, would love to discuss stuff in a proper manner.

    What he said.

  338. Tessa Leonie
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    I don’t agree with all the negativity surrounding the adaptation. The books were not scripts, if they were filmed as such it would be unbearable. That does not mean you can’t disagree with certain changes, but you do need to take in account the diffrences between the media.
    HoTU would have been awefull if they did it exactly like the book. No matter how much you wanted to see Rheagar etc. It would not have worked.

    I agree that I would not want GoT to go the way of TB. The departures there are so big that it really has very very little to do with the source material. D&D are never going to go that route.

    Don’t get me wrong, GoT is one of my favourite shows (probably THE) and I loved this season, but this season was always going to be difficult. No true protagonist, an increase in scope and the pulling apart of story lines ( Dany & Jon) that have no immediate contact with the others. Not to mention the rapid increase of magical elements. Doing CoK in 10 episodes is hard. Keeping some players in the game that were mia on the page adding even more dificulties. This is what kept Jon from having a more satisfying storyline this season. He probably should have had a handfull of scenes more in the season. Dany and Robb prove how difficult it is to create ‘original’ material within the restrains of their canon. For me Robb’s romance did not really work, but we needed time with the King in the North. Dany is always hard with her being so far removed from Westeros. Quarth has not been my fav this year. But seeing the pale silver haired dragon mum near the iron throne and behind the wall was thrilling to me. It hinted at a future in a more telling and beautifull way than I thought possible.

    Season three is going to smash it. Over all I think the story lines are better suited to tv than CoK. Splitting it up should also provide the space needed to breathe. Ofcourse there will be sacrifices on the altar of budget and brevity but there is so much gold to work with. I for one look forward to all the casting discussions and various other gates to be discussed here. Bring it on.

  339. Macha
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Oh yes, pleease? A forum would be great, I’m constantly thinking I’m going off-topic, simply because there are so many things worth discussing. Also, this could prove to be a very efficient solution for people who want to talk about certain topics (i.e. nudity, Ros, or to simply vent) that tend to put other people off. I hope that’ll be possible in the future, I realize that finding moderators could be a problem, and not something you’re willing (or have the means) to tackle just yet.

  340. Arthur
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Macha,

    Yeah a forum would be awesome! I always want to talk about things off topic to these threads…

  341. Dreamlife
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    We need some season 3 casting news. I’m afraid the negativity is going to keep building otherwise.

    I rewatched the finale and enjoyed it much more on second viewing. For one, I found it more emotional—I cried during Tyrion’s scene both times, but was really moved by Maester Lewin’s death and Dany’s reunion with Drogo the 2nd viewing. I’m really happy they were able to keep Jason Momoa’s appearance a secret; must have been difficult.

  342. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: You’re really hung up on this True Blood thing, it’s almost like it was so traumatic that now you’re seeing its threat pop up everywhere.

    Whatever bullshit happened with that show you’re never going to be able to enjoy this one if you’re constantly worried that this show will fall into the same traps. Just because that Ball guy is an asshole doesn’t necessarily mean these guys are.

    TB is the most recent example of how not to do an adaptation. Another good one is the link I’ve put here several messages above …

  343. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Is the author of the True Blood books an executive producer and/or have any hand in writing the series or did they ever? Because I think GRRM’s presence (however small) on the creative team may ensure this series doesn’t go down that road.

    She is not. She’d had a number of film options lapse on the series without any movie/show ever being made before AB descended upon her, saying he’d remain “faithful to the spirit of the books.” She also has no experience in screenwriting and, unlike GRRM, has been continuing to deliver a new book in her series every twelve months, without fail, throughout the run of the show. What is “interesting” in a watching-a-car-accident kind of way, is that the arc of TB has presaged GOT’s exactly:

    Stage 1: tremendous excitement in the book series’ long-established fandom upon hearing the adaptation is coming to HBO.

    Stage 2: two years’ worth of drum-beating for casting, episode spoilers, music selection, etc., via Con attendance, new blogs, and comment support for media sites promoting the new show.

    Stage 3: jubilant hysteria for a Season 1 that is scripted closely to the books, blog/comment explosions to counteract a tepid Metacritics response by TV critics who “don’t get it.” An episode-by- episode climb in the ratings fueling bookies and show fans’ enthusiasm on boards all over the net and tremendous word-of-mouth. Good-natured “team” competition; huge DVD sales over the off season. Show wins awards, nominating all over the place. Everyone IN LOVE.

    Stage 4: After intense speculation and anticipation, Season 2 veers drastically off-book-course and ends with “meh.” Rumblings in the fandom are shouted down: “Hey, next year will be better—stop whining—they know what they’re doing! If the author’s happy, who are we to be unhappy?” Ratings stay high, and even rise. A few show nominations. No wins in any competitive award categories.

    Stage 5: Despite the showrunner’s constant reassurances and a strong cast, in Season 3, the show begins to take major detours in character development and plot construction from the book series, exposing plot craters, ludicrous continuity errors, second-rate dialogue, etc. Ratings stay high, but critics and some of the fandom starts to jump off the love train. No nominations.

    Stage 6: Season 4 by general consensus stinks to high holy heaven. The show bears no relation to the book series other than slapping book-character names on random made-up new TV roles and grafting one character’s attributes and motivations onto another character to suit the vision of the showrunner. Book author begins to make cryptic comments andt is no longer calling AB a genius. The critics are mocking at best, openly dismissive, condemnatory at worst. No nominations and no nomination buzz. AB cites “exhaustion” and leaves the show —-to start two new shows simultaneously and immediately thereafter.

    Stage 7: TB lead actor before S5 now admits the show has “left the books” (despite 12 books in the series). Fandom is in the state of open warfare. Blogs are disfunctional as drum-beaters for the show and no longer cover both books and TV show. Some are considering shutting down completely. Will ratings follow fan malaise? We’ll see in five days.

    [Signed]

    Cassandra
    Edit a bit for overlong length: apologies

  344. Mimsy
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink
    DH87: Sorry if it seems so—I use the example of TB because (1) it’s currently HBO’s top ratings-producer and is being overseen by the same management (2) it’s a similar genre (3) it’s an adaptation from a long-running book series (4) it’s two years ahead of GOT in its development (5) its fandom has split along exactly the same fault lines and (6) my references to other shows and books, from Hemingway to Gellhorn, Nora Roberts, Robert E. Sherwood, William Inge, to Spartacus, and Homeland, seem to receive little or no response.

    Got it, thanks.

    Is the author of the True Blood books an executive producer and/or have any hand in writing the series or did they ever? Because I think GRRM’s presence (however small) on the creative team may ensure this series doesn’t go down that road.

    Exactly, Steven. Isn’t that why authors make themselves Executive Producers? So they can have some say and sometimes final say on how the series/show is going to play out? Not only is GRRM a part of the series, but D&D have a well documented RESPECT for the books as they are written and they truly DON’T want to change it into something unrecognizable. It will change some, but I trust their vision.

    DH87, I understand your concerns, but really TB (from what I hear from book fans) has just gone off the deep end and can’t really be compared to the GOT direction. I haven’t read any TB books and I don’t plan on doing so, but just being a TB viewer, I KNOW an actual author can’t be that hokey. This past TB season was a total mess.. as if there was no script. I still enjoy the show for all its’ cheesiness, but even I had to force myself to really care this past year.

    Actually, I cared a lot during Skarsgard’s … and Manganiello’s scenes. No lie. But other than THAT … it was just horrible.

  345. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    DH87: Stage 4: After intense speculation and anticipation, Season 2 veers drastically off-book-course and ends with “meh.” Rumblings in the fandom are shouted down: “Hey, next year will be better—stop whining—they know what they’re doing! If the author’s happy, who are we to be unhappy?” Ratings stay high, and even rise. A few show nominations. No wins in any competitive award categories.

    Thanks for the summary, but I don’t think this part corresponds very closely with what’s going on with GOT this season, primarily because I don’t think it “veers drastically off-book-course”. From where I sit certain storylines veered somewhere different, but they’ve more or less veered back. And I think the primary reason for any veering was 1)logistical or 2)the nature of the material in the second book. Both D&D have professed their love for book 3 (as they should), so I don’t think we’re going to see any more veering than is necessary. But we’ll see.

  346. Dan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    Sometimes people feel that disagreement is some kind of bullying; that a message board is a place where someone should be able to post and vent without anyone being able to respond negatively to their thoughts.

    I agree completely with this. It is very difficult for people to have any sort of disagreement without the discourse spiraling into the gutter. I feel it is sad that I get so much joy out of finding someone who I can disagree with in a polite manner. The only reason it gives me joy is because it is so rare. It is also very difficult to remain civil when someone starts leveling attacks on your character because you don’t agree with their opinions. But, that said, I do find that the reason I enjoy this site is there are enough people who can argue civilly that it is easier to not get dragged into the gutter by those who can’t handle when someone thinks they are wrong.

  347. LordStarkington
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    True Blood was not as critically acclaimed as GoT is, so comparing the two along those lines is tenuous at best. GoT’s reviews and recognition (nomination/award-wise) dwarfs True Blood’s.

    Your argument is more about fitting facts around a predetermined conclusion than anything else.

  348. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy: Actually, I cared a lot during Skarsgard’s … and Manganiello’s scenes. No lie. But other than THAT … it was just horrible.

    Thanks for confirming my point about the value of a good-looking occasionally naked guy in an HBO series. :)

  349. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Robbb:
    Just read Linda’s comments – wow, so childish its comical.Can’t wait for her video extra on this one – I mean is she going to spew as much bile in her video clip?Its obvious she has little respect for D&D, but she’s pretty much spent the last 20 years kissing GRRM’s ass.Is she going to so thoroughly trash this show that he’s an exec on, a writer on and ardent supporter of?I guess we’ll see in a few hours.Should be interesting…

    We need that link here. I dont know who lindel is but love comedy! FORUM FORUM FORUM!

  350. Pko321
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    Some people apparently need to consult their copy of “Storytelling for dummies” to make sure they are allowed to like a book or a tv show….Given the inherentnly subjective nature of one’s perception and a lot of randomness shaping it, there is probably no point in getting too analytical with a piece of writing. A lot of people talk about writing as if they were stating scientific truth, forgetting that something like this cannot be quite analyzed and dissected . I am not saying it is wrong to have opinions about those things – people just should take their own opinions far less seriously, save their capacity for rational thinking for where it belongs (science, decision making…) and simply enjoy what they like and ignore what they do not…

  351. LordStarkington
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Onion: We need that link here. I dont know who lindel is but love comedy! FORUM FORUM FORUM!

    Linda is the co-owner/runner of westeros.org (the biggest ASOIAF book fansite on the web), along with her fiance Elio (Ran on the westeros forums). She’s become known for being … um….somewhat outspoken on many things.

    As for the forum post -

    I’ve posted this twice already :p http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67730-book-spoilers-game-of-thrones-an-adaptation-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-not-any-more/

  352. Mimsy
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    DH87: DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:45 pm | Permalink
    Mimsy: Actually, I cared a lot during Skarsgard’s … and Manganiello’s scenes. No lie. But other than THAT … it was just horrible.

    Thanks for confirming my point about the value of a good-looking occasionally naked guy in an HBO series. :)

    I got your back on this theory DH. I’m going to start my letter writing campaign to HBO this summer… *puts pencil to mouth*

    Dear HBO,

    Shirtless GENDRY is a must have in season 3 and I’d like to negotiate some Drogoesque naughty bit action…

  353. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Well: Maybe those avid fans, that view the text as doctrine, watched it will go away because they dont like it. They did get it off the ground though: dont need em any more. to make an omlette, gotta break a few eggs!

  354. DH87
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: True Blood was not as critically acclaimed as GoT is,

    TB Season 2′s 74 Metacritics fell below GOT’s Season 2 88, that’s true, but there was much more prejudice against horror/fantasy among awards voters in 2009 than there is now, as was widely reported at the time. (TB does, I think, deserve some credit for that change.)

  355. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington:
    True Blood was not as critically acclaimed as GoT is, so comparing the two along those lines is tenuous at best. GoT’s reviews and recognition (nomination/award-wise) dwarfs True Blood’s.

    Your argument is more about fitting facts around a predetermined conclusion than anything else.

    You’d be surprised how many awards it won. I think GoT did better with critics, but True Blood has done pretty well on the awards circuit.

    And while I do agree that the parallels are somewhat pushed at times, I don’t think DH87 is off her rocker in being concerned.

    Will D&D pull an Alan Ball? From all public perception, no. But none of us know them personally, or what HBO wants, or what happens when we add 1,000 more characters, etc.

    I would say the number of new characters added for next season is a good example of their intent, if not execution. The Reeds, for example, are absolutely not needed, but we’re getting them. There’s a reason for that.

  356. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Alan: I would say the number of new characters added for next season is a good example of their intent, if not execution. The Reeds, for example, are absolutely not needed, but we’re getting them. There’s a reason for that.

    Aging up Meera so they can show her boobies?

  357. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Tried reading the Linda post from that board. I really wanted to submit it to whitewhine.com. Wow. Its a TV show, they are BOOKS. ENTERTAINMENT. To get so worked up over something…. She needs to have something really important happen in her life.. but that would require actually doing something perhaps? Or is she in her late teens?

  358. Mimsy
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:02 pm | Permalink
    Alan: I would say the number of new characters added for next season is a good example of their intent, if not execution. The Reeds, for example, are absolutely not needed, but we’re getting them. There’s a reason for that.

    Aging up Meera so they can show her boobies?

    As if… Coldhands don’t need to see that.

  359. LordStarkington
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_True_Blood

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Game_of_Thrones

    GoT also, for example, won a Peabody Award. Could the critics/award shows start to hate GoT next season? It’s certainly *possible*, but given that ACOK is about, what, 40% as interesting/compelling as ASOS, it’d require assuming D&D are going to go way off course for no apparent reason.

    Being worried that D&D (who’ve been working on this series for awhile and are also working with and involving D&D where Harris wasn’t, etc.) will fall into the same trap isn’t off-the-rocker crazy or anything. I’m just saying I don’t find GoT/TB comparisons to be particularly compelling – at least along the lines in this thread – and I don’t think worrying about GoT “pulling a TB” is really likely. From what I understand (I haven’t read the TB novels or watched much of it on TV), it deviated a lot more from the books and much earlier, as well.

    Pulling a BSG and/or Lost, especially given the somewhat muddled nature of AFFC/ADWD…

  360. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    TB is successful because girls love vampires. Sorry for the stereotype, but its true. Anne Rice, Twilight, Etc. anything that has sex with vampires will sell to women. Sure, bring on exceptions to the rule, but the facts remain. I know quite a few people who have read anne rice: all women. Same with the Twilight series. Call me sexist, whatever. thats a fact Sex sells for men (Sports Illustrated’s Swimsuit issue was the biggest seller since its inception: Boobies) and women: Vampires that arent blue like Salem’s Lot, Big box office.

  361. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy: if… Coldhands

    But would he want to touch it? and could you pry it from his cold dead hands?

  362. jonsgrl
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Don’t usually post I just come here for the entertaining discussion, but this tread is brutal, I for one enjoy the show very much loved the season finale!!!! And yes I am a book reader first. Also I don’t think the comparison to true blood is entirely correct if I’m not mistaken AB stated from the beginning that he was not going to be entirely faitful to the book

  363. Mimsy
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Onion: Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink
    Mimsy: if… Coldhands

    But would he want to touch it? and could you pry it from his cold dead hands?

    LOL … I think they would stick or you’d need dragons breath to peel them off. Either way… OUCH!

  364. Delta1212
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I think the actual answer in the TB fandom to “Would/could GRRM leave or be forced out of his exec producer role?” would have been “who?”

    Personally, I find a lot of people claiming to be Cassandra wind up being Chicken Little instead. I’m not going to claim that GoT is never going to collapse, because let’s be serious making such an absolute claim about something happens all the time would be silly. But doomsaying is also highly premature and a few of your predictions (including and especially GRRM being forced out) are a bit silly at this point.

    Anything is possible, but that’s not the same thing as likely.

  365. Dan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Onion,

    When I saw Linda say, “Furious doesn’t come close to describing what I am today. Nor does disappointed.” I just couldn’t help but pity her. I used to get pretty worked up over sports, but after I got a little older and I started to contemplate on some of the more important matters in life, suddenly frothing at the mouth over something meant for entertainment seemed childish.

  366. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy: As if… Coldhands don’t need to see that.

    Yeah, but those horny little Children of the Forest might….

  367. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Dan:
    Onion,

    When I saw Linda say, “Furious doesn’t come close to describing what I am today. Nor does disappointed.” I just couldn’t help but pity her. I used to get pretty worked up over sports, but after I got a little older and I started to contemplate on some of the more important matters in life, suddenly frothing at the mouth over something meant for entertainment seemed childish.

    Sports were my big prob, especially when my team is a perennial loser. but I got over it. Dont recall when. But there was a time about 12 yrs ago I was in a foreign land (REALLY foreign) and had to make a flight and some prick I trusted had my passportand wasnt caring too much about getting it back to me……. Never will make that mistake again, but I hope you see what Im getting at. Even that above I just wrote isnt THAT dire. but over a TV show?

  368. Macha
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Well, Hothands has now definitely replaced Coldhands in my head. I hope you’re proud of your nasty selves.
    ;)

  369. Mimsy
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Steven Swanson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:18 pm | Permalink
    Mimsy: As if… Coldhands don’t need to see that.

    Yeah, but those horny little Children of the Forest might….

    AAAH! Wish I had a bucket of ice water.. you would be worth the electrocution. lol Shame on you ste-VEN!

    Macha
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:34 pm | Permalink
    Well, Hothands has now definitely replaced Coldhands in my head. I hope you’re proud of your nasty selves.

    lol ^-^

  370. David
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    That thread on westeros is hilarious.

  371. Petter K. Vikestad
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    And also when replying to reasonable complaint with: “I find your tone incredibly patronizing and a fine example of the ridiculous attitude that goes around towards those of us who find the adaptation less than stellar. ” and ends it with “Now, go troll someone else or watch something suitably challenging for yourself. Transformers, maybe.” It’s really sad.

    She is a terrible person, and I wish she didn’t represent the fandom of one of my favourite book series. It DOES make us all look bad.

  372. paylor
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    I tend to think of the House of the Undying as a grab bag of visions and prophecies and I have no problem with the choice to let the visions in the book stand as they are and instead devise new ones for the screen.

    You know, you are probably right about this. And I am one of those people that were vocal in her disappointment that the prophesies not being touched on. But as GRRM has made clear prophesies are often wrong and open to misinterpretation. The thing that got me the most excited about seeing HotU onscreen was the light it shed on the past, not the visions of the future. I find the events that lead to Robert’s Rebellion to be some of the most interesting tidbits in the book, so I was bummed that they were not going to be shown in HotU. However, I think what they did show was cool, atmospheric and open to multitudes of interpretations. So, surprisingly, I’m giving them a pass on this one now. There are things that they changed that I think work better in the book, but I do not doubt their passion and sincerity when it comes to translating these books. After all, I wouldn’t be a fan of the books at all if I didn’t see the show first.

  373. Ryan E
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    Only read some of this thread but it sure shows how silly the internet can be. One troll can get everyone up in arms… but this troll thinks the Malazan series is great writing! That series is a convoluted mess with god-awful video game characters (Erickson does write a great battle scene though I will give him that). Can’t worry about everyone’s opinions, sometimes you just have to chalk them up to (bad) taste.

    I loved the finale and loved the 2nd season as a whole. I’d agree that John’s story was a little disappointing but hell they nailed everything else so that deserves major kudos! Not only that but they made Theon’s character more interesting and his storyline more emotional and impressive. Actors were just great. King’s Landing was all I imagined and more. And the House of the Undying was great. Great visual and emotional impact in those scenes. The scenes from the book would not have worked at all onscreen either because they would spoil what is to come or just make no sense in the TV version.

    Yeah we all have a few things we wish were a little different, but holy crap people, this adaptation is better than 99% of us would have believed possible 3 years ago. Unbelievable job done by all! Can’t do anything but gush about this show.

  374. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think it’s fair to call her a troll because she loves the Malazan series. I enjoyed a few books in that series, and loved House of Chains. I don’t agree that it’s way better than ASOIAF, as there’s often a lack of believable heart and personality in the Malazan books. But having her own opinion and defending it isn’t really trolling.

  375. Ryan E
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: I don’t think it’s fair to call her a troll because she loves the Malazan series. I enjoyed a few books in that series, and loved House of Chains. I don’t agree that it’s way better than ASOIAF, as there’s often a lack of believable heart and personality in the Malazan books. But having her own opinion and defending it isn’t really trolling.

    When I say trolling I’m talking about complaining about GOT in a post about the all time ratings high. I probably didn’t make that very clear. Nothing against Malazan because I enjoyed it I didn’t mean that was trolling…. I started reading this thread on my phone several hours ago so at this point we might not be even talking about he same poster I just swear I was reading someone putting down ASOIAF the books and GOT the TV series while talking up Malazan, which I personally think is crazy based on my opinion of the quality of writing of the two.

  376. Weirwood
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    Alan: I have to say that I didn’t even see the word in Pastor’s first post.I kind of gloss over things like that.

    That said, it’s extreme to call someone that.I don’t agree with her post; don’t really get her point of view and I think as someone who represents themselves as semi-official and more, posted a reactionary and over-emotional post that frankly came off as childish.

    But she’s not the only person ever to do that.And that doesn’t make her a c*nt.Heck, it doesn’t even make her childish — I don’t know her.My experience with her posts on that board has been her acting very childishly — we got in a debate earlier this year where she got instantly personal and then Ran deleted several of my rational responses (and left her comment that I was too dumb to understand the books properly).

    But that word isn’t one I’d use lightly.

    Well, since there is no cure for it….. I totally understand. :P

  377. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    I don’t think it’s fair to call her a troll because she loves the Malazan series. I enjoyed a few books in that series, and loved House of Chains. I don’t agree that it’s way better than ASOIAF, as there’s often a lack of believable heart and personality in the Malazan books. But having her own opinion and defending it isn’t really trolling.

    Its trolling when somebody comes on here and says “GoT SUCKS THE BIG ONE! Maztalan ROCKS!!!” They can go to the Maztalan board for that, perhaps exchange dip recipes or something?

  378. Weirwood
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: Linda is the co-owner/runner of westeros.org (the biggest ASOIAF book fansite on the web), along with her fiance Elio (Ran on the westeros forums). She’s become known for being … um….somewhat outspoken on many things.

    As for the forum post -

    I’ve posted this twice already :p http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67730-book-spoilers-game-of-thrones-an-adaptation-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-not-any-more/

    Look at Linda’s Tumblr…. http://hippoiathanatoi.tumblr.com/

    she uses the C-word…. A LOT.

  379. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Onion,

    DB is a regular poster here, not some random troll only speaking her mind to piss you off. She is allowed to complain about the adaptation or the books, whatever she wants. Personally, I love a good book debate. :)

  380. Watson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Wow. It’s like someone hooked a keyboard up to their bleeding ulcer and made a blog of it. When it’s not the C-word she’s calling people barbie-girl. It’s amazing how quick some women are in deploying misogynistic language.

    Also she seems to have spent the entire month of May complaining about Talisa’s skin colour. Apparently it’s not white enough for her. Those pure blooded Volantenes…

  381. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Watson,

    Actually, barbiegirl isn’t a generic insult, but her addressing a specific tumblr whose URL references Barbrey Ryswell, Lady Dustin from ASOIAF.

    But the diminutive form of the name is probably intended to be a bit insulting in this instance.

  382. Watson
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    A bit insulting?

  383. WinterComing
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: Linda is the co-owner/runner of westeros.org (the biggest ASOIAF book fansite on the web), along with her fiance Elio (Ran on the westeros forums). She’s become known for being … um….somewhat outspoken on many things.

    As for the forum post -

    I’ve posted this twice already :p http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67730-book-spoilers-game-of-thrones-an-adaptation-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-not-any-more/

    Normally I have the patience to go through multi-page forum topics but I just couldn’t in this case. It’s a bunch of people who don’t seem to understand 1) what an adaptation is and 2) that the books are still gonna be there even if D&D fumble the adaptation. The worst part is that most of them act like pretentious intellectuals who had to sully themselves by associating with the TV viewers *gasp*

  384. Alan
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Weirwood: Look at Linda’s Tumblr…. http://hippoiathanatoi.tumblr.com/

    she uses the C-word…. A LOT.

    Oh my God. There’s funny on the internet and then there’s that.

  385. Omar Brown
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Watson:
    Weirwood,

    Wow. It’s like someone hooked a keyboard up to their bleeding ulcer and made a blog of it. When it’s not the C-word she’s calling people barbie-girl. It’s amazing how quick some women are in deploying misogynistic language.

    What a horrible, bitter, sourpuss. It is like she is channeling Lord Walder Frey, and we all know how we feel about them Freys. ;-)

    I am unsubscribing to their FB and Twitter feeds, I dont need that kinda negativity in my life.

  386. Langkard
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy: Wait.Don’t we do that during the season?;-)

    Well, yeah… but we perfect it during the off season! Luckily, this off season we have the Summer Olympics to entertain us for a few weeks.

    I’m interested in finding out sometime this Summer if the hinted at new location becomes a reality. D&D mentioned it in their interview with James Hibberd about the Drogo cameo. I’m wondering if they are looking for a location to use for outdoor shots of the Slaver’s Bay cities.

    Even the little things are helpful in keeping me sane while waiting for the next season. Another way to stay sane is to completely avoid going anywhere near anything posted by the acid-spewing, vitriolic harpy who likes the immortal horses of the Greek gods.

  387. Onion
    Posted June 5, 2012 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    MUST START A NEW FORUM!
    Please…….

  388. Omar Brown
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Onion,

    Hmmm, what shall we call our upcoming forum? It will come ( It is known! )

  389. Joshua Taylor
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Langkard,

    acid-spewing, vitriolic harpy who likes the immortal horses of the Greek gods

    Ah! So now we know who the Harpy is! As for the horses part..at least Cersei considers the horses a last resort…

  390. Onion
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Omar Brown:
    Onion,

    Hmmm, what shall we call our upcoming forum? It will come ( It is known! )

    Who cares! A Forum of Thrones, etc. That place ( which banned me many years ago when I got “uppidy”) is simply like a Bible study group. Well, I aint religious. about anything … other than onions perhaps. but thats another matter. Why cant we have a normal forum, full of normal people, talking about the show and books either combined or not? Not just a fucking bitch session. Thats what that cesspool is there. Time to branch off, get away from the complete negativity.

  391. Weirwood
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    Onion,

    Bring on the TWEETS! :)

  392. Onion
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Weirwood:
    Onion,

    Bring on the TWEETS! :)

    agreed. then lets sacrifice some of these westeros bums to the gods to see if my flowers will grow nicer.

  393. Dennis
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Must be nice to have a life as free of actual problems as Linda’s must be in order to bitch so much about a tv adaptation.
    I hope she read the Hobbit because she’ll have to start tearing Peter Jackson a new one soon.

  394. Omar Brown
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Dennis,

    The only thing that Concerns me about “The Hobbit” is the 48FPS cinematography. Many people don’t like the “look” of it.

  395. Onion
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Dennis:
    Must be nice to have a life as free of actual problems as Linda’s must be in order to bitch so much about a tv adaptation.
    I hope she read the Hobbit because she’ll have to start tearing Peter Jackson a new one soon.

    Funny. I watched Lord of the Rings prior to reading it. Loved both. Though I know some bookies that hated the movies. One takes what one takes from books. Cool. What’s interesting is that these people feel that ALL people should feel the SAME THING that they felt. Let me tell you something. The Reeds? In my opinion? Pretty insignificant. The Blackfish? Whatever. This coming from somebody who read these books around 10 yrs ago. These pieces werent important….. Unless of course, it is doctrine. The Reeds were little fish people. cute, but not Victarion. I dont get hung up on specifics with fun entertainment. Its not worth it. Love all the “theories”. Seriously, its doctrine to these losers.

  396. MW
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Alex Dubrovsky: TB is the most recent example of how not to do an adaptation. Another good one is the link I’ve put here several messages above …

    The ratings for TB would suggest otherwise. Legend of the Seeker would be a better example.

  397. Virtus
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    MW,

    So you thin that ratings = quality?

  398. Lexyvil
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    Since Book 3 will be split into two seasons, I can only hope they’ll stay more accurate to the book than season 2 was.

    Despite the small changes they made for a Clash of Kings, it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s the best show on TV~

  399. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    MW:

    The ratings for TB would suggest otherwise. Legend of the Seeker would be a better example.

    I meant it as an example of how to completely butcher the source material, though Legend Of The Seeker is guilty of too, AFAIK. I rarely see ratings or box office as a measure of the quality of the product (hey, Transformers movies made shitloads of money, and they are an unholy abominations unleashed on this world).

    And Linda’s tumblr is a comedy gold.

  400. PhantomSoul
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    That Linda woman is (unintentionally) hilarious. How old is she? She sounds like a butthurt 12 year old. She reminds me of those overemotional Twilight fangirls ….To get so worked up over a TV show. Good God, one would think she doesn’t have any (bigger) problems in her life (and if she has I’d rather not know how she reacts to them), to get so hung up on this as if at the end of the day all that stuff really mattered…
    It’s one thing to be disappointed with some of the changes made to the adaptation of your beloved books (as long as you provide reasonable justification), it’s another to act as if the show/movie has become a life/book ruiner. It’s not like anything that happens in Game of Thrones alters or destroys anything that happens in A Song of Ice and Fire.
    Those people who (over)react to the adaptations, I’ve never understood that. I get the big love you have for the source material can sometimes get the better of you but for fans to repeatedly get furious over things not going how they want them to as if they own the story is ridiculous. It just seems too personal, like they treat any deviation/omission from the story as a personal insult. I’ve watched many adaptations of the books I’ve come to love, and despite acknowledging they can never be as good as the material they’re based on (it’s a mission impossible), I’ve never reacted so strongly to their non-canon content. Sure I feel it’s a shame that some scene/detail I liked from the book didn’t make it on screen or was changed in one way or the other, but I usually get over that quickly and realise that there must be some good reason for why it is so. It’s not like most changes are made for the sake of it. I have minor issues with this season (basically the handling of Jon/Dany’s characters) but I’d rather focus on the positives, instead of wallowing in the negatives. This is entertainment, which is supposed to be fun, why take it so seriously? Does it have that much impact on your life?

    If people can’t be more open minded to how translation from book to screen usually works, they should just go back to re-reading the books to make themselves feel better and save themselves the pain and disappointment. I really don’t get why some people subject themselves to this, not like anyone puts a gun to your head and forces you to watch.

    I’m glad that I’m one of those who are able to forget the books for 60 minutes, separate them from the show and don’t torture myself playing spot the difference during every episode….that would suck the whole enjoyment out of watching this TV show, which is great on its own. Looking at all the other book adaptations out there (fantasy or not), and having been a member of quite a few fandoms, I consider this one extremely lucky. If someone can’t help but feel utter disappointment, just think how bad it could actually have been. Lower your incredibly high expectations, try to watch the show without your ASoIaF-tinted glasses, and you might enjoy it a bit more.

    The fans are so quick to judge the final product but they haven’t really got the slighest idea of what goes on on the other side of the camera and what it takes to bring book pages to life. At least GRRM understands the difficulty and complexity of the whole film making/adapting process. GOT show is not perfect (and neither are the books unlike what many seem to think), it’s not as good as the books, but if I didn’t know any better and just read the comments from many readers, I’d think this show is a disaster in all aspects (adaptation wise or on its own), which it is not, far from it. I’m grateful for what we have, and hopeful it can get even better, because there’s always room for improvement.

  401. gotgotgot
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    WOW nice 4 mil++

    Really awesome.
    Hopefully we get Season 3 soon in 2012 instead of having to wait a whole 10 months.
    Maybe a january start could happen! Also we need the blu ray release of season 2 a lot sooner too.

  402. Virtus
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    PhantomSoul: That Linda woman is (unintentionally) hilarious. How old is she?

    I think she’s 37…

    It’s true that books are usually better than adaptations. Although as an exception, The Ninth Gate was definately better than the book it was based on, The Club Dumas.

  403. Virtus
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    gotgotgot,

    A Forbes article stated that season 3 would probably start in February, but they didn’t say where they got that information.

  404. Juan
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    gotgotgot,

    I think that the opposite is what may happen in future seasons. Even if we keep up this rate of a season every spring, the series will catch up with the books before these are finished. And then what? It is my belief that when Boardwalk Empire is cancelled, I would say in a year or two, Game of Thrones may be moved to the Fall schedule, making us wait a year and a half for a new season. It is the best way to give time to GRRM to finish his books without having to wait a full two or three years later down in the road, because we have to wait for him to finish.

  405. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    PhantomSoul,

    Those people who (over)react to the adaptations, I’ve never understood that. I get the big love you have for the source material can sometimes get the better of you but for fans to repeatedly get furious over things not going how they want them to as if they own the story is ridiculous. It just seems too personal, like they treat any deviation/omission from the story as a personal insult. I’ve watched many adaptations of the books I’ve come to love, and despite acknowledging they can never be as good as the material they’re based on (it’s a mission impossible), I’ve never reacted so strongly to their non-canon content.

    You, there is an overreaction, and then there’s Linda’s reaction. I can understand how people connect to the stories so much they can actively protest the changes in adaptation, but there’s a civil way to do it, without calling anyone “cunts”.
    I remember how I spoiled to myself the enjoyment of the first LOTR movie by sitting in the theater and constantly checking in my head where the movie deviates from the book. Only couple of months after that I understood what a fucking idiot I was and I went to the next 2 movies and enjoyed the hell out of them. I rewatched all 3 of them, including director’s cut, many times since then and it’s the best possible adaptation that this book could get.

    However, not all adaptations are lucky to get Peter Jackson or D&D behind them. Sometimes it’s Alan Ball, as DH87 likes to remind us, and sometimes it’s the people behind Pillars Of The Earth mini-series.

    The first case is the classic case where someone thinks he knows better than the author and he doesn’t care for the source material, even if the source material is not that great to begin with (Sookie Stackhouse books are light and mostly very enjoyable read, but they are hardly a literary masterpiece).

    The second is the case where the resulting product is mostly good on its own, even if the changes to the story are also the changes to history, but it’s pretty bad as an adaptation. I had an interesting experience with this one – I saw the miniseries, being interested in the time period it is set in, then read the book, then watched the miniseries again. The second time I was impressed by it much less. I can’t say anything bad about the technical side of the mini-series and the acting, but the changes there were unnecessary and didn’t make a lot of sense.

    I guess the point of all this long writing is that I can understand people who are upset by an adaptation of their favorite book, but there’s a civil way to discuss it and frankly, we are lucky to get people who obviously care about the source material behind this adaptation.

  406. Zack
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    Juan,

    I just think if it should get to the point where they catch up to the books, either George is going to have to give them early hints on where to take the characters (which is dependent upon just how far along he is into writing them) or, and this would be my preference, they just skip a year of continuing this story and give us Dunk & Egg instead.

    Omar Brown:
    Dennis,

    The only thing that Concerns me about “The Hobbit” is the 48FPS cinematography. Many people don’t like the “look” of it.

    It’s new. Jackson’s not concerned and his reasoning makes sense. People are worried because they’re not convinced about a 5 or so minute preview, right? The likelihood is that if folks are in there watching a three hour movie they’ll get acclimated to its visual style by the end. It’s going to require an openness from the audience at first though.

  407. Omar Brown
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Lexyvil,

    Many people forget that ” A Clash Of Kings” was not a perfect book, the stuff around Kings Landing with Tyrion was great, the Battle of Blackwater was amazing. However Jon and Dany parts were quite weak. I mentioned this on Twitter and @Westeros replied and basically told me I didn’t know what I was talking about.

    Fanboys can be like religious fanatics, you really can’t argue with them.

  408. Moonrise Kingdom
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    I watched Moonrise Kingdom last night. It was nice to take a break from this cesspool of utter madness to see some brilliant piece of work.

    Made me sad to come back and see the filth again.

  409. MATTHEW
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Watson: Tero Kuittinen, That kid is the showrunner’s son. I’m guessing the audition process wasn’t terribly intensive. The girl who plays Sally is pretty great though.

    Maisie Williams + Kiernan Shipka = best actors on television :-D

  410. Alan
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Moonrise Kingdom:
    I watched Moonrise Kingdom last night. It was nice to take a break from this cesspool of utter madness to see some brilliant piece of work.

    Made me sad to come back and see the filth again.

    Great to hear it’s good. Love Wes Anderson.

  411. Joe
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    it was so good to be a part of the 2ndseason..heard some rumors that 3rdseason is also filming in croatia FUCK YEAH !!!!!

  412. Zack
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Moonrise Kingdom:
    I watched Moonrise Kingdom last night. It was nice to take a break from this cesspool of utter madness to see some brilliant piece of work.

    Made me sad to come back and see the filth again.

    Hooray! I can’t wait to see Moonrise Kingdom, glad it’s good

  413. Knurk
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    Lol, someone dug up this old quote from Lindaa:

    “The fact that you can string words together into a few paragraphs does not make you any less of a troll. Do you not realize how incredibly stupid it makes you look to claim that a writer has any obligation to his readers or that the writer should allow criticism on his own personal blog? I am so glad that you and your friends are upset enough about the wait for A Dance with Dragons that you spend this much time posting about it. In fact, part of me will be a little sad when the book comes out because that means you won’t be quite so frustrated any longer (and I love thinking of how frustrated you must be), but the thought that you will undoubtedly start whining like little babies about the next book if its not out within a year is very entertaining.

    Really, go back home to your parents and have them explain to you again that entitlement issues aren’t pretty in anyone over 5. Your “review” has been reported as abusive.”

    Entitlement issues aren’t pretty indeed in anyone over 5 Linda.

  414. Watson
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    That quote is almost too perfect.

    But I will admit to a little sadistic glee over the level of hyperventilation the show inspires in her.

  415. loco73
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Buyaa!!!! Loved the entire season (yes all 10 episodes), and am sad to see it end! Now gotta get lots of sleep and do my GoT marathon…ohhhhhhh, those days off work will be worthwhile spent with all my peeps from Westeros!

    PS Winter, can you get that clock counting the time until next season starts…it will keep me going through the long, dark days ahead, also known as the time until Season Three premieres…that and “The Hobbit” coming out in December…

  416. Meg
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    OT: Joe Abercrombie is blogging his re-read of the First Law. Fascinating stuff; I wish more fantasy authors would do this!

  417. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    Someone should quote it in one of her episode reviews or on that forum thread. You’ll get banned in about 2 seconds, but it’s still worth the effort :)

  418. PatD
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I don’t get a lot of the criticism of the writing on this show (and, precisely, the finale, which I thought was terrific television). Especially the complaints about not providing traditional ARCs and character progression. Ever since The Wire, a series as novelization has become its own, unique format. With shows like The Wire and GoT, we are not watching episodic TV, or season contained ARCs. There’s no way to fairly criticize what the writers are doing (especially with changes from the books), until the completion of the series. Besides the obvious (providing character development for Tywin), there’s no way to know for sure what the writers had in mind with the Harennhal changes. Maybe no more than what meets the eye, but to pass such definitive judgement upon it seems to show a complete unawareness of this television format. Not every main character’s sole purpose is to serve their own story line. It’s why I started to back off of my criticism about Ros after the finale. She wasn’t in that scene to progress her story line, she was a device used to enhance the character of Varys’. So many of the complaints (especially those from the purists), exhibit a gross lack of understanding for the differences of medium, and their newer formats, that it’s seriously injured their credibility, afaic.

    Second, why would commentators drag opinions from other forums to this site

    I’m sorry if this offends you, but *any* public posting on the internet is fair game. Especially those from a host of a fan Web site who professes to be representative of said fandom. I admire GRRM’ s and Bryan Cogman’s loyalty, but her constant OOT rants about the way the show is being written and presented has gone way beyond the pale. The response it is cultivating shouldn’t surprise anyone. For the perfect contrast/comparison, set the way this site’s owners run things aside that of Westeros’. That pretty much stands as the best argument for how to run an open, respectful, and enjoyable Web experience. I honestly don’t think they will be the “foremost” resource for fans for much longer. You can now get almost the same quality of info about the source material from Wiki, other fan sites, and HBO… without all the drama and unhealthy aggravation.

    I think S2 had a lot of built-in obstacles which would have been difficult to overcome for any writer/showrunner. S1 was a lot of world building and exposition, S2 was fraught with many different locations and new story lines. My only real complaint was the lack of time afforded to those elements, but I think that except for Jon and Halfhand, they did the best they could, and in some cases, made brilliant choices (I think the HotU was way more interesting than the unending, nebulous series of obvious devices of symbolism that were in the books).

    I like to debate rational criticism, but when someone throws out a blanket statement essentially saying that D&D are crap writers, I just can’t take that seriously. I could list a bunch of examples that disqualify that sentiment, but the single, most glaring one: D&D wrote “Baelor.” ‘Nuff said.

    OT: Great news about the future of this series.

  419. WinterComing
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    How about we go back to the original topic?

    GRRM vs Steven Erikson. Who would win in a fight?

  420. Alan
    Posted June 6, 2012 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    WinterComing:
    How about we go back to the original topic?

    GRRM vs Steven Erikson. Who would win in a fight?

    They’d never get past opening introductions. Martin would rewrite his so many times, he’d never actually turn it in and Erikson would write a 45-volume epic that was simply a list of synonyms for “wordy.”

  421. GoTAddict
    Posted June 7, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Game of Thrones rocks and is the best tv show ever! just my opinion :)

  422. Nicolas
    Posted September 12, 2012 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    This is the third time I’ve been to your site. Thank you for posting more details.


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