GeekAndSundry‘s Sword and Laser show has a new interview with A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin.
The video also features a chat with Henry Jacoby, author of Game of Thrones and Philosophy: Logic Cuts Deeper than Swords, and contains Paul and Storm’s new music video, “Write Like the Wind.”
- 6:15-20:00: George R.R. Martin discusses the surprising popularity of some characters, the existence of “SanSan,” and what he would’ve liked to see in “Blackwater.” His own nerd reaction to “The Avengers” is not to be missed.
- 20:30-25:57: Henry Jacoby on creating his new book surrounding the ethical and political issues of Westeros.
- 38:00-42:00: Paul and Storm‘s hilarious video for “Write Like the Wind.”
Ours is the Fury: Hearing George say, “Where’s Antman?” reminds me of so many conversations we’ve had here at WiC.
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174 Comments
Hodor
HodorQuote Reply
Get cracking and write faster!
Book NaziQuote Reply
Does anyone have an idea at what minute mark the GRRM interview starts?
Dark StarQuote Reply
6:15
Ben WatsonQuote Reply
Bronn. That is my fav character next to Tyrion, Jaime Cersei The Hound Daenerys …. you get the point!
BalerionQuote Reply
George, gay men love Theon Greyjoy, too! or… maybe just this gay man BUT WHATEVER.
PacoQuote Reply
I’m gonna say it, and I mean it, and sorry for the feathers it’s gonna ruffle.
I hate Tyrion.
KGQuote Reply
He became so dislikable in ADWD. Still an enjoyable character though. I mean, I don’t like Theon or Cersei as people but as characters they are some of the most fascinating in the series.
The BullQuote Reply
Tyrion became boring in ADWD, most of the characters did to be fair… Victarion, Jamie, Brienne & Reek were the only ones I liked! Lets hope they get better in the next book…. but alas my bones will be blowing in a cold breeze by the time that is written…
Dany makes me want to kill myself in ADWD, & I didn’t even give a poo about Jon at the end…
houndloverQuote Reply
Who cares who likes what character? They all will die in the end anyway! HAHAHAHAHA! Everyone dies, that is the end.
axia777Quote Reply
axia777,
It is known!
houndloverQuote Reply
Wow this has become the unofficial “I hate ADWD thread” lol!
With her bangs like that does anyone else think Felicia Day looks like a younger, squeaky clean clone of artist/Rilo Kiley frontwoman Jenny Lewis?
I wonder what Felicia Day thinks of the show, I know she is a Martin fan but so far the only tweet she made in regard to the series was a derogatory comment after the Littlefinger sexliloquy.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
that isn’t Felicia Day I assume.
KnurkQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
Other than ASoS, ADwD has been my favorite book in the series to date (see screen name). So, no hate from me.
I’ve never understood what it is about that one that turned so many people off. As far as I’m concerned, it’s full of clues and has given us the most complete picture of the world to date (in conjunction with AFfC, of course). Personally, I think it’s a case of people only seeing what they want to see.
I think a lot of people were frustrated with Dany’s storyline, given the fact she still hasn’t made any plans to invade Westeros. And, perhaps I got a kick out of it so much because I’m so obsessed with Dunk & Egg. The fact that we finally got to meet the Three-Eyed Crow, who turned out to be freaking Bloodraven, of all people, was an incredible turn of events, in my opinion. And to add, the chapter in which Theon finally says his name again gave me chills. God, do I love that book.
Varamyr FourskinsQuote Reply
The Geekandsundry YouTube channel is a product of Felicia Day (The Guild, Dr. Horrible, etc.), and has some pretty cool stuff on it. Definitely worth checking out.
Nigel BradleyQuote Reply
I adore “Write like the Wind “. I’m going to be humming it all day.
ADwD offers a LOT of food for thought. What’s not to like ? ..( That doesn’t really need an answer ..;) )
ObsidianQuote Reply
ah good show. Brings back all the sweet melancholy and carthasis I feel towards Guy Gavriel Kay’s work. So much sadness. Sigh. Tigana is a masterpiece. An absolute masterpiece. But it fills me with such sadness that even just hearing other people talk about it hurts. It doesn’t necessarily hurt in a bad way but it does hurt. George RR Martin makes you angry when bad things happen to his characters. Kay makes you cry.
I would’ve liked to have heard Martin’s take on that rather amusing music video. All in all that was a good show, I don’t normally like watching things like that but it was better than a kick in the nuts.
DavosFTW!Quote Reply
I think that the only problem with ADWD is that some chapters that should have been told in flashbacks (as was the case with GOT) were written in-full and became a little bit boring, such as Tyrion first couple of chapters. You could actually consolidate his first three chapters into one and then the chapter would be much more fun. Martin used to do this in the first books of the series but stopped doing it in AFFC, probably because he fell in love with the characters so much. The other problem in my opinion is the Quentyn Martell storyline, which is rather useless. It felt like it was going somewhere but then George decided that it wasn’t so….enter the dragon. Apart from that, I think it’s a really good book, too long probably, but really good.
EmpedoclesQuote Reply
That is Veronica Belmont, not Felicia.
ClobQuote Reply
I just re-read ADWD, and loved it. Even the Dany chapters. Enjoyed it more than the first time.
LexQuote Reply
The whole Quentin thing was so ‘huh?’ Why introduce Quentin, then bring out Aegon?
TheFlayedLadyQuote Reply
Victarion Greyjoy stole the show in ADWD for me.
The KingslayerQuote Reply
Leave the man alone and let him write!
The Queen’s HandQuote Reply
Quentyn Martell story ended exactly how I’d hoped it would end, I loved it.
Darren MasonQuote Reply
WINDS OF WINTER?
Needs to write faster I’m
Killing myself, re read all five twice already
BrightroarQuote Reply
Is that… is that… Veronica Belmont? I miss her from her Qore days. And of course this as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycGBJNYs1qI&feature=player_embedded
The Lightning LordQuote Reply
ADWD was great! *the following contains spoilers as to who makes it to books 4/5* I really like both AFFC and ADWD. I loved Brienne’s storyline in AFFC and it introduced us to Victarion. What a great character that is. Asha gets more screentime so to speak and turns out to be quite a fascinating character herself and I really loved her arc in ADWD. Davos also had a wonderful arc in that book as did Tyrion who indeed is quite different from how he used to be but given what he’s been through that’s perfectly logical and to me only makes him more appealing. Dany’s storyline I never liked in books 1-3 but I bloody loved it in ADWD. GRRM has taken it to such great new places. Jon’s arc was also pretty good except perhaps a bit too long and Theon’s was wonderful as well. Especially the reunion with Asha at the end. That almost brought tears to my eyes. So yes both AFFC and ADWD to my mind are both very good reads that I have very little to complain about.
WinterdarkQuote Reply
Yeah sorry, that’s not Felicia Day at all. My bad. 2 pretty redheads= confused Josh.
I also loved ADWD.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
Well it’s not the worst book in the series but the most dissappointing thing about it it’s that it took almost six years to write and this is what he came up with . Don’t get me wrong i love the north part of the story especially the Reek chapters but other than that it’s a pretty lame book for me .
Claudiu GherganuQuote Reply
You see, I waited 5 years for AFFC… which was way more frustrating and disappointing than ADWD (especially since it was missing all the major characters)… so the wait for ADWD just wasn’t as bad by comparison.
LexQuote Reply
Dance was a B-, only preferable to Feast to my mind.
The book ruined Dany and Tyrion for me. I find it insane that those are two of Martin’s favorite characters to write yet their plotlines in the book are among the worst. If the television adaptation doesn’t address their material I might have to be skipping their scenes.
But it did quite well with a number of other characters, especially ones who were new on the scene with POV chapters either in that book or Feast. It’s certainly a worthy entry in the series.
ZackQuote Reply
KG – I’ll join you in that Tyrion club.
MegQuote Reply
Surprising to see how many people like ADWD. I think Feast is a book that most rate last (which I did once too), but I really loved it upon my reread. I think everything is put in perspective the second time round.
The InstrumentalistQuote Reply
I did too. It was one of my favorites, and the ending didn’t make me reconsider that whatsoever, but solidified that opinion. I think the point of bringing him in for the one book only will probably be that in the aftermath Dany has lost Dorne as a potential ally.
ZackQuote Reply
The song is actually really good, I had to laugh very hard at the George Lucas comparison. “We all know how that turned out in the end.” Though I don’t care for the next book because ADWD has given me nothing to look forward to, especially when you have read/heard the new chapters of TWOW. It was probably the worst book I ever read, annoying prose, endless descriptions about turtles or Night’s Watch food cellars, illogical characterdevelopments, annoying cliffhangers. Only things that got me excited were Bran, Davos, Manderly, Slynt and some parts of Reek (no pun intended lol). Oh yes, and Strong Belwas of course.
KnurkQuote Reply
Varamyr Fourskins,
ADwD is my second or third favorite of the series too.
Oddly enough I do not have an agenda when I read, I don’t expect GRRM’s characters to be doing certain things or progress beyond a certain point. Why should I? I did not write the book afterall! XD
So I was not disappointed whatsoever in where the story went or did not go. Plus I honestly enjoyed the downaward spiral of Tyrion, and seeing some of the greater schemes in the saga come together as they did. There is really a lot at play in ADwD.
darquemodeQuote Reply
axia777,
That’s why the final book is called a Dream of Spring. Just a dream, not reality. White Walkers rule the seven kingdoms.
Damn you’re without internet for 3 days and suddenly WIC.net lights up.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
A woman enjoyed the GRRM interview and the song video…very well done, even if you’ve seen their old performance video of the song, this video adds new dimension, very funny dudes!
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
A Dance With Dragons was awful. If I hadn’t waited six years for it, and it had already been written and ready for me to read when I finished Crows, it would not have been so bad … but to wait all that time, for THAT, was crap.
Tyrion and Dany don’t even meet? Seriously???? STILL????
Varys’ plan all along was a DIFFERENT Targaryan? No thank you.
Jon Snow DIES???? (If he’s actually dead, then this will have been AWESOME, but i feel like its going to be a fake-out)
The best parts of the book were Reek … which were actually some of my favorite chapters in the whole series, I’ll say!
Brian SmithQuote Reply
It’s just so weird to me, having just re-read ADWD and found it to be really good, to hear so many people say things like “it’s awful” or “it’s crap”. If you read the amazon reviews, people would have you believe it’s complete and utter garbage. It’s not the best in the series – it’s certainly on the slow side – but to say it’s crap?
The only explanation I can think of, for this apparent widespread disconnect from reality, is that people love exaggerating and speaking in extreme hyperbole.
ADWD is light on plot progression, I’ll admit that. But I loved the worldbuilding, the travel descriptions, the exotic locales, the intricate descriptions of landscapes, the evocative atmosphere of the settings, the portrayal of the difficulties of ruling… all of it. It’s not action packed or full of epic battles. It’s more like a fine, rich wine to be slowly savoured.
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
Fine, rich wine to savor for another SIX EFFING YEARS????
I think not.
Brian SmithQuote Reply
Lex,
I think the reason so many people are against it simply because they had to ait six years for it. THe expectation kept on building and building as GRRM kept on delaying until the expectations were way too high to realistically satisfy. More reason for GRRM to write WoW quickly. I started reading the series just prior to Season 1′s debut, so I didn’t have to wait very long for ADWD, so when it came out I enjoyed it although it was a bit slow.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Pretty much agree with you. I guess folks are pissed because they waited so long, had great expectations, there was a huge hype – and then the story hardly progressed in most storylines, Dany filled endless chapters with being static, Tyrion’s chapters stopped being enjoyable, many cliffhangers from book 4 still remained, and there were tons of new cliffhangers…
Personally, I enjoyed the read, but I, too, was somewhat disappointed.
Bad DogQuote Reply
Bad Dog,
You pretty much nailed it, right there.
Brian SmithQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
Maybe you’re right. Like I said above, I read the series over 11 years ago, and waited 5 years for AFFC… so I learned a long time ago to keep my expectations low. GRRM is just a slow writer; the length of time has no correlation to how good it’s going to be. I had no expectations or hype for ADWD. Anyone who did get their hopes way up for ADWD was setting themselves up for disappointment; it’s their own fault.
LexQuote Reply
I look at ADwD as the middle of a second Act in a series or play. It deepends the characters and plots already in place and moves some pieces along into position for the final act. We have Dany and Tyrion at their lowest points dealing with the consequences of their past actions…
I think that when the series is complete and people look back at ADwD it will play much better in the rankings honestly.
I guess with so much time people imagine what they want to happen and then are disappointed when the story goes a different route.
darquemodeQuote Reply
From what a woman has read on many threads here, it appears that some readers are upset that as of ADWD, Dany has STILL not made her way to Westeros. Many think that it will take more than 2 more books to finish all these story lines, but IMO…whatev? If it takes 2 or 3, we’ll still be waiting 10 – 15 or more years to see the conclusion of these story lines unless GRRM decides to put aside work on other projects and puts more focus on the remaining books. Writing is a lonely and tedious business, so it’s no surprise that GRRM needs to do some conventions, etc. in order to break things up a bit. We will have to be patient and console ourselves with the awesomeness that is the HBO series until the next books come along. This woman will not be surprised if the HBO series finishes before the books are finished. It is out of our control, we must accept what is.
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
I hate the argument that I didn’t like the book because I had to wait 6 years for it (11 actually) and my expectations were out of proportion, I know a lot of people who started the books at the time HBO aired the first season and they hate the book even more than me. As I said a lot of times before: I didn’t have any expectations of things to happen in the book, all I expected was a good read. And a good read it was not (for me).
yeah, but if you don’t love those things can you imagine all the bad reviews it’s getting on Amazon? That aside, I think GRRM is really bad at describing things. His prose isn’t good enough for that to fill a whole book with it. He is at his best when he is advancing the plot, the moment he starts to lament in his own world things often get ridiculous.
KnurkQuote Reply
Mrs. H’ghar,
If the show cathces up to the books I’m hoping they will do a “Robert’s Rebellion” or a “Tales of DUnk and Egg” until the books catch up.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
IMO, D&D already know the broad strokes of what the last 2 books will contain and have mapped out their own way of concluding the series. As GRRM has said (even in this interview), the show contains things that the book cannot since the book follows only what the POV characters know or know about. So, they really have become 2 separate entities that function in a “parallel universe” sort of way, each to its own devices. The book will have details and thoughts of characters that the show will not have, the show will have scenes that are D&D’s own way of telling the same story with actions and not thoughts as befits a visual medium such as television. It is this woman’s hope that we’ll have all the books before the HBO series ends, but wouldn’t bet on it! Will HBO want to put more money/time into a prequel if the series gets to the end before the books? It’s a great idea/dream, all the fans would surely watch it so it seems a no-brainer, but it probably depends on how the show is doing with regards to audience numbers by that time. A “Roberts Rebellion” season would be a cool addition to the GoT box set for sure! As I have not read the Dunk & Eggs, I cannot comment on that idea. Mmmmm, would Joe Dempsie be cast as young Robert? Who would play Lyanna? Maybe somebody unknown…casting “Robert’s Rebellion” would be a fun diversion thread to pass the time…WiC??????
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
this, of course. I love to agree with you ;)
About the difficulties of ruling (I liked that in Dany´s chapters btw) but I don´t know if the credit goes to the author, sometimes I have a feeling that GRRM just “presents” things superficially and it´s the reader who makes all the work… as if avoiding his own discourse, something like that.
andreaQuote Reply
Mrs. H’ghar,
Joe Dempsie would make an awesome younger Robert. Any ideas on a younger Ned though? Do yourself a favour and read the DUnk and Egg novellas, they really are worth it, although a bit short.
I really hope GRRM gets finished before the series. Would hate to read the books knowing what’s going to happen.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Mrs. H’ghar,
Ok this is a stretch I know, they tried it unsuccesfully with Rome, but it would be awesome if Robert’s Rebellion could be done as a movie instead of a tv series. The battle of the Trident, 120 000+ men would just be too big for tv. As much as I enhoyed Blackwater (awesome storyline, effects, superb acting) I was let down on the rewatch. I just never felt that Staniss had 70-80 000 soldiers and that the battle was happening at more than just one place. The limits of a tv production budget. But would love to see some Lord of the Rings scale battles in Roberts Rebellion.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Mrs. H’ghar,
I agree with you and Aegon the Conquerer, Benioff and Weiss have a game plan
and most likely exchanged ideas with GRRM. I’m sure Dempsie would be a
candidate for young Robert Baratheon, Eddard Stark would be included as well.
To expand your discussion a bit, Brandon and lady Dustin will probably add
a nice side story as well as the philandering young Roose with that farm girl.
Lord Arryn and Hoster Tully ( not to leave out still unpopular Walder Frey ) as
major players. There’s a lot of politics played out here with the Lannisters and
each region lord, yet these side stories sow thoughts of future plans. Maybe
Dunk and Ed would add some fun and flavor with their pursuits as well.
WildSeedQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
I would love to see Ned washed up on that island and given aid as did Davos. Was that
just outside Manderly’s territory?
WildSeedQuote Reply
Good points about the scale of the Battle of the Trident, but perhaps a boost in funding for an episode, as they did with Blackwater, would be warranted for such an important episode and might make the difference in making it an epic episode. Though some felt that Blackwater still did not achieve the feeling of magnitude of such film battles as LOTR scenes, this woman did not feel it effected the outcome enough to say “we can’t do this battle as a tv episode” with the Trident. IMO, the human stories were well told, and were more important than more sweeping shots of catapults or other battle elements that would be too expensive for a tv episode. CGI is improving by the minute, so perhaps more computer elements could be used (as in LOTR) without busting the budget to make a Trident battle seem even “bigger.” After all, the battles are a means to an end in ASOIAF, not the end in themselves, no?
Mrs. H’gharQuote Reply
Look it is George’s fault by reading the epilogue for Feast of Crows where he explains his strange strategy of not splitting the book in two. And he finished by saying that he had written loads for the next book (Dances with Dragons) and it should be out (hopefully) within the year. Well he was off by 5 years. In addition, Feast is so strange with so many maj0r characters missing that it was hard to get into in general. Then ta-da! 6 years later dances with dragons is out and really is not that great. Could it be better than Feast of Crows, yes. But clearly is much worse than the first three books in the series. Seems like George is more concerned with being “epic” rather than telling a damn good story. Last two books truly needed serious editing but alas did not happen. But for me reading that explanation from him after Feast of Crows to be followed 6 years later by what he put out there was highly disappointing.
Brian AufderheideQuote Reply
There’s that redhead guy ( Redwynne?) that starred in the BBC ” Pillars of the Earth”
series alongside Rufus Seward.
WildSeedQuote Reply
Mrs. H’ghar,
This one agrees, the siege outside Tully’s castle was incredibly interesting because
of the realities spoken of on the ground. GRRM lent great voice to Jaime and his aunt.
I was in awe of Blackfish and his cunning.
WildSeedQuote Reply
Mrs. H’ghar,
I’m very much a numbers guy. When Renly said he had 100 000 men, I immdiately wanted to see them. While I’m not diminishing Blackwater, I enjoyed it incredibly and thought it was better and more emotionally draining (in a good way) than Baelor. The lack of soldiers still bothered me. On the Trident there is nowhere for these soldiers to hide as they could in a siege.
HBO managed the sweeping scale in one episode of ROme in season 2. Maybe they could do it again.
However you might have a point there. Dont know if you’ve heard of the live Star Wars TV series. Its been in the works forever and the reason therefore is because of the cgi testing they are doing. They have the scripts but they are just way too expensive to do. So they are experimenting with new ways of making movies that if succesful will allow one to incredible action sequences at one tenth the cost. So maybe that’s the route to go.
Wild Seed
Yeah that would be an awesome scene, “if you lose, you were never here!” can’t remember where it happened though.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
I can’t remember either but I recall the great quote you mentioned and ” Sister Stew”.
I can taste it now.
WildSeedQuote Reply
WildSeed,
I was just thrilled to have NEd back for a new story. Really miss the guy. Re reading the series, halfway through GOT, it’s really funny, I know what’s gonna happen but I still hope Ned leaves immediately for Dragonstone instead of going to that Brothel.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Right now I’m eating Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, I noticed that there’s mount Khaleesi in it. I that where you got the name George?;)
Hassan MadkourQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
Aye, Ned is worthy of remembrances. He was a man of principle, a mate who’s
got your back. For some readers of ADWD, Ned’s inspiration was solely to avenge
the brutal death of his father, brother and sister. Yet GRRM gave him a air of
moral value and political/ philosophical principle. Such virtues stand with the
challenges of life and friendship. I thought the same of maester Aemon and that
scholar at Oldtown ( Samwell met him ). In GoT TV audiences got to experience
Ned’s letter to Stannis, a man he felt indifferent to but pressed the issue of his right
to the Iron Throne.In today’s political climate there are far more Pycelle/ Varys/ Frey
than not. In ADWD lord Manderly’s court included the visiting Freys that re-worked
the Red Wedding incident to include outlandish details of Robb attacking them. Such
is the verbal game and posturing for the political throne.In today’s language, Money
Power and Respect. On a different note, have you ever wondered why GRRM chose
the Lannister sigil as the lion? it reminds me of Winsor Castle.
WildSeedQuote Reply
Hassan Madkour,
I’m no expert yet I am aware of the name “Khal” to derive from African/Arabic
origin (which covers quite a large territories in North and NE Africa thru Saudi
Arabia ). The name or title is old and khaleesi perhaps a derivative of it. The
fictional Indiana Jones novel like most sampling historical facts or artifacts
need to draw from those in order to entice readers. I enjoy stories that evolve
around an actual historical event, many written work and plays do. Often enough
it was the only way the common folk got to communicate openly of controversy
happening around them. A song, a play , a book somewhere kept record of fact
disguised or expanded to share the news. Brilliant! It gets a little complicated
when grumkins and snarks are added though (:
WildSeedQuote Reply
The story that is told during AFFC & ADWD is the best part of the series so far in my honest readers opinion. It is second to ACOK. I believe if they had given us a 1600 page book that would have been AFFC & ADWD combined than people would have fallen in love with it.
The Onion KnightQuote Reply
I completely disagree. A lot of readers picked up those books expecting to see the storylines that were built in the first three books reach climax points, or at the very least, be continued. Instead we learned how a new King of the Iron Islands is chosen, we were introduced to Oberyn Martell’s children and all their friends, we saw the rise of a religious movement we heard virtually nothing about before, and we learned everything there is to know about a city that we all KNOW will ultimately be left behind (Meereen.) And then there’s Jon, talking, talking, talking, and talking. If a lot of people fell in love with these brand new storylines, that’s great, but it’s not fair to act like those of us who were disappointed are simply missing the big picture. It’s more likely that we just didn’t enjoy the last two books.
Dolph LundgrenQuote Reply
I agree with you to a certain extent, I feel like the first three books were better than the last two, but at the same time I couldn’t stop reading 4 and 5…. I remember thinking what the heck is George R.R. thinking, introducing all these new characters and new story lines??? Isn’t there enough going on already? But I have faith that he know what he is doing! Just felt like sometimes certain characters were MIA for a very long time (still!) and new stuff being introduced at the expense of the older characters.
Still, can’t wait to see where he is going with it! Not sure if he even knows (lol)!
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
I loved watching this. Keep at it George!
LordDavos12Quote Reply
BTW, did anyone notice in this interview… GRRM says he did NOT write the Hound/Bronn confrontation scene in Blackwater, D & D wrote it.
Kinda disappointing, I’d hoped that scene was his.
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
Why is that disappointing? A great scene is a great scene.
Ours is the FuryQuote Reply
I just think it would have been more awesome if it was GRRM playing around with those fan-favourite characters, inventing new stuff for them to do. It’s still a great scene, but it lacks that sense of authenticity knowing that GRRM didn’t write it.
LexQuote Reply
Worst book in the series is ADWD is the 4th best book in the series IMO. Hated Dany and Daario with a passion.
Turn cloakQuote Reply
Varamyr Fourskins,
Lex,
Winterdark,
Joshua Taylor,
darquemode,
I agree. Put me in the likes ADWD column as well.
Well said, ser! Yes, ADWD suffers because it isn’t about introducing stories and characters or ending plot lines, it’s the middle of the show. A second and third reading of ADWD as part of a re-reading of the entire series to date deepened my enjoyment of ADWD itself.
LangkardQuote Reply
Turn cloak,
Just curious… why did you hate Dany and Daario? I always liked Dany even though her story line is S L O W, and I liked Daario, but I notice a lot of people did not like him… just curious why?
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
Turn cloak,
Sorry, forgot to add, I couldn’t wait for Dany to jump into the sack with Daario LOLalso, I can’t stand Jorah, so maybe I was just happy someone else was there to put him in his place :)
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
Why are people under the impression that they’re even supposed to like Daario? Or Dany, or Tyrion for that matter?
As GRRM said in the above interview, a character that is liked by everyone, all the time, is cardboard. GRRM tries to create real people, which are made up of good and bad. At times, everyone is likable and unlikable.
P.S. Yes, Daario is a total douchebag. But his extreme cockiness is kind of funny, and he’s totally the kind of bad boy that many young girls fall for.
LexQuote Reply
If I want wonderful scenic descriptions I’ll read a Frommer’s. When I read a novel, I expect plot.
KGQuote Reply
Lex,
I agree,
I commented on Daario because I have noticed a lot of people saying they can’t stand him and I was wondering why…? I suppose he is cocky and all that, but I really enjoy his character!
I tend to like the characters who are more flawed, they are more interesting, like you said no one is good/bad all of the time.
Just interesting to me that so many people don’t like this character – and these same people like Jorah, who, to me, is a way more unlikable character than Daario..
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
This has to be trolling, right?
LordDavos12Quote Reply
When GRRM said that, and how there shouldn’t be a character that everyone loves or hates… I literally yelled at my monitor “WHAT ABOUT JOFFREY GOD DAMMIT!”
LordDavos12Quote Reply
No, actually not…. I was responding to a post by turncloak where he commented on how much he hated Dany and Daario. So I was responding to something not off topic). So just an FYI, it was not off topic :)
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
Bonnie Blue,
I laughed pretty hard when Dany said “You said you slept with a hundred women,” and Daario replied “A hundred? It was a thousand.”
LexQuote Reply
Martin is always a good interview, but the interviewers were terrible. Go back to journalism school and learn to ask better questions. Also, nothing was more annoying than them telling us “We’re not going to ask him when the next book will be done. It will be done when he finishes writing it.” Yeah, we know. We don’t need you telling us that. It’s bad enough when Martin says it, but I don’t need a “journalist” announcing that she’s not going to ask a standard (if a little contentious) question. Just don’t ask it. Or better yet, find a different way to ask the question that won’t set Martin off. Something like, “How’s the writing on The Winds of Winter coming along?” is a good way. Martin may dodge the question, but at least it was asked. Or he may surprise us and announce that he’s ahead of schedule. Stop calling attention to yourself, and talking down to people who actually expect the books to be finished in a timely fashion. Three years is fine. Five or six is not, especially if the books that have taken forever to write were of lower quality than the books that were quick to write.
JohnQuote Reply
Lex,
Yeah, that was funny! I guess he’s just the token “bad boy” maybe that is why the me and my friend (another female -we are not that young though, in our 30′s haha!) I know liked him. But he was kind of a breath of fresh air over the humorless Jorah!
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
I read all the books after Dance had come out, and I think i’ve read Feast for Crows more than any of the others. I’d probably have read Dance nearly as many times, but I read in bed and the hardcover version is large and hard to hold. So yeah, needless to say, I quite enjoyed those two haha.
The music video was great. I got unnecessarily excited when I saw Vork was in it.
AndrewQuote Reply
I only started reading the books after Season1 was on TV, so I didn´t have to wait 6 years for ADWD (BTW, I´m still waiting for the next “Outlander” book, Mrs. Gabaldon!). However, I kind of rushed through the book, because I wanted to know what happens. Wasn´t too impressed either, but now that I´m re-reading it I think it´s more enjoyable.
Despite what others say, I love Tyrion and the way he changed, Daario may be a badass, but an interesting one and, sorry folks, I hate Reek! Couldn´t stand Theon either. Dany´s story is indeed very, very slow, maybe because the dragons had to grow to a certain size to be dangerous. My favourite from the very start is and will be Jon. Yes, there was some neverending talking in his storyline, but he´s the only one I really, really want to know more about. Not only who his parents are (I guess we all more or less do), but also his purpose and if he´s ever leaving that godforsaken place (this may be Kit Harington´s fault, although I´m waaaay to old to pass as a sqeeing fangirl). Oh, I forgot Bran and Rickon. Bran seems to have found his place, but where the hell is Rickon?
Let´s hope GRRM will hurry up :)
blackbird7309Quote Reply
I had to drag myself thru ADWD. I am so sick of Dany now and was hoping one of her dragons would just take her out of my misery once and for all. Nothing happens. She goes nowhere. That pitiful cliff hanger of hers? Sounds like more of the same for her. The whole Martell family……more and more and more characters to keep track of and who will probably also go nowhere in the end. I shouldn’t have to make a spreadsheet to keep track of who is who but that’s how that book felt. You can write a “history” of a place and not have to include every single person there that ever drew breath!! After awhile I just don’t care anymore.
LindaQuote Reply
blackbird7309
i agree, after seeiing s1, i started reading ASOIAF for Jon, and it IS kit harrington’s fault. Eventhough i adore alot of the other characters, Jon’s my fave and i hope he does survive. I am starting with AFFC soon. And Bran, can’t wait what’s going to happen to him..
I’m thinking Joel Kinneman would make a great Daario.
mags giantsbabeQuote Reply
I really like Daario, my Essos favourite character without a doubt
I still haven’t re-read ADWD but AFFC didn’t improve on it so not looking forward to it.
PS: I also love Guy Gavriel Kay, wanting to read Ysabel for a while but read some mixed reviews…any thoughts?
Pau SorianoQuote Reply
WildSeed,
Did you see the Saturday GOT laughs a few weeks back where they compared Presidential Candidates to GOT characters?
I think it’s because the Lannisters are based on the medieval kingdom of ENgland and their sigil was a golden lion on a red field.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
do you all aDwD haters realize that this is a 7 book series?
it’s only logical that the books in the middle are more slow for the sake of building up the grand finale in the 2 remaining
also you must bear in mind the idea all that happen in affc and adwd was supposed to be in the same book
PS: i also got infinitely bored with the dany chapters in adwd XDDDDDDDDD
FranQuote Reply
Filming is starting soon where are the casting announcements? Hopefully we get some in the near future
GPQuote Reply
The thing I enjoyed most out of ADWD is how much light was shed on the backstory of the series. And this is one series where the backstory is more important than normal. In particular, Brandon Stark turning out to be a total arsehole who probably raped Ashara Dayne and got her pregnant? Didn’t see that coming. OTOH, totally called it that Elia Martell was too ill to bear Rhaegar’s third child, sending him looking for a second wife and hence the whole Lyanna situation.
For forwards plot momentum, ADWD did actually do a fair bit (a lot more than it’s credited for), but it was disappointing that the storyline of Dany in Meereen was not definitively wrapped up. That was the book’s biggest weakness, along with ending related POV arcs (Tyrion and Victarion) almost mid-storyline rather than on a more definitive note. That said, the ending was badass and hopefully Dan and Dave will keep it intact for the TV show:
C’mon, who isn’t waiting for Conleth Hill to play out Varys’s scene in the epilogue? Killing Pycelle with a crossbow and then – apologetically – finishing off Kevan whilst revealing his true motivations? He’s going to kill it. Unless they change it completely for no discernible reason, of course.
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Fran,
All in all it was a horrible idea to split the story geographically instead of chronologically.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Adam Whitehead,
AH yes I was horrified reading the epilogue with the whole Conleth Hill voice in my mind. It would be incredible
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Dany doesn’t spend entire books doing almost nothing save for pining for Jorah. Daario is infuriating less because of his attributes than because of how the book is structured since he’s present.
ZackQuote Reply
You know what.
That was one of the best GRRM interviews in a long long while. He often gets in a publicity tour mode and repeats himself. Perhaps this is also because the same questions are asked. Perhaps it’s because he’s trying to survive the onslaught of constant questioning without exerting every ounce of brain energy he’s got. But these questions were fresh for the most part. George gave us some Season 2 commentary. And I laughed my ass off at the very end.
Great job. Made my morning.
Now I can work and be a productive member of a society.
Michael J. BaroneQuote Reply
Lex,
Replace “garbage” with “genius” and “crap” with “awesome” and one could say pretty much the same of the people who raved about ADWD. Many loved it, many were disappointed. All of them have valid reasons for feeling the way they do about the book.
I am one of those who thought the book was crap; I don’t think it’s because I’m disconnected from reality. That’s a new one, by the way. Usually when a fan questions why some dislike ADWD, it’s about reading comprehension.
AtreyuQuote Reply
SanSan is so canon it hurts
DBQuote Reply
Knurk,
I agree on the world building. Frankly what I think GRRM does best or at least what I enjoy the most is the “small stories” infused with a greater sense of scale (e.g Dany’s GoT arc, Reek from Dance, Jamie in Storm, Dunk and Egg). I think in Feast and Dance he loses the small stories or lets the small stories get swamped by world building. I would much prefer getting back to core overlapping small stories instead of these EPIC arcs that seem to rely on using more words to create EPIC.
Hoya Karsa OrlongQuote Reply
Atreyu,
Of course some people are going to like it, and some are going to dislike it. But the vast majority of the reviews (at least on Amazon) seem to think that ADWD was a pile of shit.
I’m not saying you’re disconnected from reality if you disliked the book. I am saying that when 90% of the reviewers on Amazon think it was complete shit, then yes, they may be disconnected from reality. Sometimes a book becomes a target for hate, and IMO they are jumping on the bandwagon. I don’t believe many of the Amazon reviews are realistic, fair, or objective.
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
why are they disconnected from reality if they belong to a large group? I think most negative reviews are quite fair when you actually read them, even the 3-star reviews all have a bunch of complaints. All those short 5-star reviews are out of touch with reality: the so called bogus 5-stars review just to keep the book-average at at least 3 stars.
KnurkQuote Reply
Lex,
Well, I’m glad you think there’s only a 90% chance that I am disconnected from reality — I wrote a review on Amazon for ADWD. And now, there is a good possibility that I am unfair, unrealistic and not objective. ;-)
AtreyuQuote Reply
I don’t remember any of that at all…Not the rape or the too ill to bear children parts. I guess it’s been a while since I read but, where/when/how was that stated?
JoshQuote Reply
Just throwing my two cents in, ADWD was somewhat of a surprise for me. Luckily, I only had to wait a few months in between books, so perhaps that played its part and shaped my reaction upon finishing it. Because yeah, at first I was underwhelmed, just as I’ve felt upon finishing AFFC. Yet somehow, these were the only books in the series I’ve gone back to and re-read. I lack the time to do a complete re-read of the series, but even though I loved ASoS as much as anyone, when I’m in a mood to test a new theory or simply enjoy the world and its characters, it’s AFfC and ADwD I pick up.
I don’t think trying to convince one another is of any use in this case, and I completely understand other people’s criticism, the last two books certainly didn’t provide what we all thought they would. Personally, I appreciate GRRM even more as a writer because of it. It’s all a matter of personal taste in the end, what others call lazy writing I see as quite a bold move. For me, AFfC and ADwD really made me see the scope of it all, and they provided a lot of background information which I love revisiting and rethinking. Ultimately, it boils down to the attachment for certain characters and storylines also: I’m pretty indiferent to Tyrion and Arya, I don’t have much love for Dany or Jon, I definitely don’t want to see any Stark on the throne, and as for the dragons – well let’s just say I hope that GRRM has some epic deaths in store for them. Blasphemous, I know. Still, give me Dany facing the difficulties of ruling over her ‘badass’ invasion any day. :)
MachaQuote Reply
Macha,
No love for the Starks? You are evil!…Lannister!
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
You misunderstand me. :) Of course I love them, if we’re putting it like that. I simply don’t want to see any of them on the Iron throne. Especially Jon. Also, I personally feel the storyline would benefit greatly from having at least one of them play a major negative role in the future. Negative might not be the exact word for what I’m trying to say. Let’s just settle for contrary to what we’re expecting.
MachaQuote Reply
Macha,
Right now I’d settle for Sansa becoming lady of the Vale, Arya coming back as a faceless man to kill those survivors on her list and I can’t believe GRRM writing forces me to say this-the Stark name survives the outcome.
It’s just the way you said it that made it sound as if you have the same disdain for the Starks that I have for the Greyjoys.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
I don’t really have a house bias, neither I root for a certain character based on their actions alone (the only exception might be Brienne). For me, it’s mostly about how that character is written. If someone would ask me who my favourite characters are, I’d say without a doubt Jaime, Theon and Stannis. And Bran, since we mentioned the Starks earlier. However, that doesn’t mean I want them to succeed in any way, the only exception being Stannis, who I’d really love to see kick some Bolton ass, but that’s understandable. After that he can just die a horrible death and I’ll be totally ok with it. :)
What can I say, I’m not a fan of happy endings in literature, and I love to be surprised.
MachaQuote Reply
Macha,
Man reading the saga must be easy for you. Although I’m also not a fan of “they lived happily ever after” (as reflected in my novels), I become quite fond of certain characters and they’re death has caused me to flung the book away several times. So I just can’t do that. If Brienne were to bite the bullet I would be depressed for a long time. You don’t want to know what the Red Wedding did to me.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Macha,
Yes, AFFC and ADWD gave shape and form to many of the previously unexplained areas (Iron Islands, Dorne, White Harbor, Oldtown, the Free Cities of Essos, Slaver’s Bay).
As long as GRRM manages to tighten the scope and deliver an exciting, satisfying conclusion, I think we’ll look back on the completed series and be thankful for the “middle” books which, while less exciting, fleshed out so much of the world.
LexQuote Reply
Sure, there are some fair reviews. But it seemed to me that so many of the negative ones were ridiculous. I don’t feel like searching through them for quotes right now (except for one which comes to mind, that called the book a scam, a rip off, and a “waist” of time), but there were so many reviews saying that GRRM has completely lost control of the story, has no idea what he’s doing, that it’s the worst book in the world, that it’s garbage, that it’s worse than what happened with Robert Jordan’s later books, that he’s just trying to make money, etc. And every negative review was voted way up by other users, whereas any remotely positive review – even reviews that gave good, reasonable arguments for why the enjoyed the book – was scored extremely low by other users. It just seems like one big bandwagon hate-fest because people just want to bash the book.
Anyways, I really don’t care, to be honest, because I enjoyed the book quite a bit. I’d still probably only rank it as my 4th favourite out of 5, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.
LexQuote Reply
Lex,
So … what’s so ridiculous about this review:
We end the last book almost at war with Meereen, a war we need to see fought to get Daenerys closer to Westeros and closer to a possible end to the series. A thousand pages later, we’re almost at war with Meereen. This pretty much sums up how far all the plot lines go in this book. Perhaps the most frustrating and obvious of the shaggy dog plot lines is Tyrion. He begins the book on his way to meet Daenerys, which will actually be interesting – and after a thousand pages – he’s become a slave, broken away, become a mercenary and aided young Griff. All of which might be interesting if this were book one, but all I want to see at this point is him meet Daenerys. Really, would that have been too much? On page 500? Too Soon? Nope, we’ll save that for Book 6.
And young Griff? He’s a plot line introduced 4500 pages into the story and now becomes yet another obstacle to an ending. We didn’t even see Sansa in this book so we’ll probably get 500 pages of Sansa and Littlefinger see-sawing in the Vale in Book 6. Who cares? And for those folks who demand to know why I kept reading if I was so annoyed, I kept reading because I’d already delved into 4000 pages and was hoping it was moving toward a conclusion since Martin pondered over this book for so long. Not to mention the fact that Martin is a great writer. His prose sucks you in, he wields suspense like Valyrian steel and his characters are deep. Yet, all I felt at the end of this book was disappointment.
Great writer or not, his name should not be mentioned in the same breath as Tolkein. Tolkein managed to tell a better story, in a deeper world using a third of the pages. Heck, I actually liked “Feast,” but at this point, I honestly don’t know if I’ll pick up book 6. The only thing of significance in Dance happened at the very end when Jon Snow takes a knife in the back, ironically similar to the one Martin keeps twisting in mine.”
On that same recent page is a reviewer who praised the book and received several positive responses because it was insightful.
AtreyuQuote Reply
Lex,
I thought your earlier statements about the Amazon posts were evenly put. I tend to
balance out the worst and best recommendations by sifting through the POV and
argument for or against. It’s difficult to verify ( even when one realizes how subjective
the subject) because of reasonable vs unreasonable expectations. I was fortunate to
begin the ASOIAF last year with ordering all 5 books ( just after GRRM’s recent
release ). I can only imagine the angst with waiting years for the next release as
many readers complain about. Same book differing anxieties. Waiting for the
Harry Potter books prepared me a little but I’m avoiding letting my anxiety grow
for book 6 by remaining reasonable….it’s worth waiting for. Meanwhile I’ve ordered
” Legends I-II and Dreamworks I- II, they’re on their way. Oh and yes, by the way
I enjoyed ADWD immensely. I missed some characters where book 6 will pick up
but I enjoyed Cersei’s walk of shame, Lancel’s confession,the dialog between Jaime
and his aunt , Davos’s journey ,the Northmen’s politics and REEK.
WildSeedQuote Reply
Atreyu,
Aside from Danerys’s story, what did you think of the rest of the book?
WildSeedQuote Reply
This ADWD debate is as fruitless as a D & D Stannis and Renly parlay.
A lot of people loved it, a lot of people hated it, some found it so-so. Yeah there are factors: personal taste, intelligence, anticipation, hype, two books that should have been one, not enough editing, it’s the middle of the story, it’s just setting things up, fanboys giving it five stars instead of four…etc etc. But it all means bubkes to the person who has a contrary opinion to your own.
Some us liked it, some of us didn’t.
Deal with it.
I will say I am surprised of the comments from people saying they will not read Winds of Winter. Personally after reading three awesome books whether I disliked Feast or Dance, I’d be too invested in the world to not want to find out what happens in the end. I also find that some of the reviews I have read and people I have talked to, carry a certain arrogant pride about hating ADWD. Not everyone, but some. I’m sure some will be pious in their refusal to read the next two books, but some of them are probably going to change their mind as well. We shall see.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
lol, you more or less started it with your first comment here. I won’t read the next book (which I actually expect will never see the day of light) before it gets some good honest reviews.
Though I agree the discussion is fruitless, what is interesting is the Amazon debate. GRRM made me detractor when he said all the bad reviews on Amazon were written by evil sockpuppets, the irony is now that there are dozens of 5-star sockpuppet reviews just to keep the rating at at least 3 stars.
KnurkQuote Reply
Macha,
I feel very much the same way about AFfC and ADwD.
T o me the first three books are more personal and you can connect to individual characters and their stories, but the last 2 books helped me see the scope as you put it. It gave me insight into the greater narrative of the saga.
Afterall, ASoIaF is not about an individual story like most Fantasy novels are. It is an epic about the events that shape a continent and the very fate of humanity in general on said continent. That needs a larger perspective in my opinion and the last two books helped to provide that.
I guess mostly I am lucky in that I’m not posessive enough or attached to any one character so much that I assume the story will go a certain way in a certain amount of time. I just enjoy the journey I am being taken on. I like to theorize, but I would never expect anything in particular to happen in any given book. I’m not the writer..
Plus like you, I won’t mind if the dragons die and no Stark sits on the Iron Throne in the end. Honestly.. I have no expectations of which characters will play which roles in the endgame. Personally for me it is counter-poductive to assume role A will get revenge and role B will be the third dragon and role D will stop the Others…. All will be revealed in time and I will enjoy reading it.
darquemodeQuote Reply
Knurk,
How would you be able to do that? Even if Winds is absolute rubbish and slammed by every critic, which I sincerely doubt, I would still have to read it just to know what happens.
That being said, that the series will never reach each end is a serious fear of mine! George is 63 and at this rate we’ll be lucky to get Winds when he’s 70. What are the chances of the man dying before the story is finished? Someone please get the man in a gym or some life prolonging diet please!
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Ha ha, I did didn’t I? Oh wells. :p
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Aegon the Conqueror,
if I want to know what happens I’ll be able to find it on the internet. But the fact is, I read books because I want to read a good book. Not because I want to find out what happens.
KnurkQuote Reply
In the “Game of Turtles” some win or become soup. LMAO ! Paul and Storm ( song)
touched on some amusing but painful notes, I wondered if GRRM has heard it (:
Apparently George has clearly read some fan letters of Sandor-Sansa and Jaime-
Brienne love knot hopefuls. What a riot , in the game of thrones you pick your
favorites ( it helps if they’re cute ) . Ladies, we must cut back on the compassion
a bit. Where every person may possess two sides , some bad asses are just what
they seem. Has any one read GRRM’s Wild Card book series discussed in the
interview ?
WildSeedQuote Reply
To all those sinking the boot into George, his books and HIS character development:
Why don’t you put pen to paper, write an epic that transports us all to another world, sell millions of copies, win awards and get it picked up by HBO ….. only then will i take your sniping seriously..
We have a saying “those that can not do, criticise”.
OK.. got that off my chest
NJQuote Reply
WildSeed,
Now, the quote I provided from Amazon is not my review, I tried a few edits and even attempted deleting my post when I wasn’t satisfied with it. I am but a sweet child of summer when it comes to internet forums and am full of n00b.
My impression of ADWD?
In a nutshell:
1. I found the archaic language distracting. Serjeant, must needs, neeps, alarum, etc. A marked change from the previous works.
2. Laundry lists: food descriptions, Jon’s inventory, turtles, etc.
3. Gratuitous sex and violence. I am not a prude, but less is more. My favorite passage in the book is still the Ramsey/Theon/Jeyne devil’s tricycle. It could have been so much more repulsive if I hadn’t already been inured to that sort of thing in ASOIAF. A missed opportunity there, IMO.
4. Not much plot advancement.
5. Character regression (Dany, Tyrion)
6. Beating to death of motifs such as “words are wind” and “where do whores go”.
7. There were a handful of good bits in the book, but not enough to justify 1,000 pages.
Anyway, I am not some evil agent hopping on the ADWD hater bandwagon: my Amazon review was written in August (?). All of these issues (and more) with ADWD have been discussed at length, but it is fun to revisit from time to time.
Mr. Taylor,
Excellent points about the debate. Helpful vote to you! I’m on the fence about reading the next book. But I’m sure as hell not paying for it.
AtreyuQuote Reply
NJ,
You’re saying people can’t have an opinion on things unless they can do them? I’m not allowed to criticize, shall we say, a politician/actor/whatever unless I can do what they do? That’s just idiotic.
Oh, by the way, by your own logic you can’t criticize the vast majority of people you are complaining about because… well, you should know. Your logic.
Firelix SeashoreQuote Reply
NJ,
Why don’t you put pen to paper, write an epic that transports us all to another world, sell millions of copies, win awards and get it picked up by HBO ….. only then will i take your love of the book seriously..
See how that works?
AtreyuQuote Reply
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LetsSeeYOUDoBetter
KnurkQuote Reply
I have no problem with critiquing/criticizing IF it doesn’t become a blood sport. And on reading the various threads/comments, that’s what if often becomes.
The bandwagon rolls in and everyone jumps on board and ‘has a go’..
I love the books/series and sure, sometimes I do get frustrated with story arcs etc, but I don’t feel the need to attack George for the way he chooses to tell HIS story.
I think Lex said it in earlier post (apologies if it wasn’t)…ADWD might not be the best of the series, but it fleshes out his world a helluva lot and I enjoyed it.
I could go on (and on), but will leave it to others to shoot me down for criticizing their criticisms.
NJQuote Reply
NJ,
Then why not make your initial post like this rather than say something thoughtless?
Firelix SeashoreQuote Reply
Stupid iPhone wouldn’t let me delete repeated pars. Apologies.
NJQuote Reply
Sorry Firelix,
Truly didn’t mean to be thoughtless in my initial comment.
Perhaps I was just being defensive/abrupt (or as someone suggested ‘idiotic’) because I actually really enjoyed the book…
NJQuote Reply
I think it’s different for people who actually read the books one by one as they came out. I happened to be a late fan, so I was able to read the books one through five all in a row. I think that by doing that, I kind of was able to see the series so far as a whole….Maybe I would feel differently if I had to wait years to read each one. I enjoyed all of the books, but some more than others, but I enjoyed them enough that I have to say I can’t imagine reading the others! But to each his/her own :)
Sorry to ramble, my point was just that people who read the books all in a row in a few weeks may see it more as an entire entity, instead of each individual book standing on its own merit. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, just it is maybe a different experience.
Bonnie BlueQuote Reply
Wow seriously you guys MASSIVE spoilers with no tags? I am a fully caught up reader and I feel bad if any newbie wanders in this snake pit of spoils!
Come on !
Omar BrownQuote Reply
Summed up beautifully, Omar!
NicNicQuote Reply
Knurk,
Yeah no I get that, but so far the saga has been of such quality, even with the hiccup that was ADWD that I have to find out what happens first hand.
Aegon the ConquerorQuote Reply
Anytime someone links to tvtropes, a little part of our collective intelligence dies. It’s a site that somehow has made people think they are experts when they aren’t, just like when someone looks up logical fallacies on wikipedia. Ugh.
Criticism is perfectly valid and I certainly don’t think someone needs to be an expert to criticize something, especially constructively.
My issue is with people who criticize not taking into account their relative levels of expertise compare to those they are criticizing.
Criticisms of the show, the books, politicians, etc., would be much different if people acknowledged other people’s accepted expertise, their own lack, and subsequently tried to understand their actions and point of view with the respect that their effort, experience and talent would seem to imply.
Sometimes it is as simple as phrasing something in terms of your own experience (especially when talking about art) rather than acting an expert.
I’m convinced that while there are certainly things to pick at in Dance (and structure and the lack of climax in a couple of storylines is legit), the vast majority of criticism comes from people’s expectations of both where the story goes and what characters do.
The reality is while every fan who reads ASOIF claims to love it for the fact that it is not traditional fantasy, the vast majority who do things like post on a message board or rabidly post amazon reviews, don’t really want that.
Just look at all the shipping posts. Look at the offered up prospective endings or expected plot paths for Winds of Winter. Look at how many threads ask who will be on the Iron Throne or when the Starks all get back together.
All these posts are clean, progressive, things tying up neatly. The girl and guy get who they should get in some weird destiny (Jon and Dany have never even met. Jon is not at all Dany’s type. And yet…). Everything is happy for our favorite characters.
When does that ever happen in life? Or in ASOIF? Martin does not have the prettiest view of life. Dance is exactly what we should have expected Martin to write — not some clean and pretty story where Dany suddenly gains allies in Tyrion, Victarion and the Dornish and crosses the Narrow Sea and wins the Iron Throne and married Jone and it’s awesome.
But this type of wish fulfillment is standard in fantasy. I enjoyed Dance for a lot of reasons, and most of those probably aren’t shared with a lot of people. I can see people thinking it’s boring, even, though I realize that those people and I have virtually nothing in common. And I think there’s reasonable complaints from a structural standpoint.
But it’s not crap. Critics loved it. A lot of readers loved it. It may not be your cup of tea. It may not be what you wanted to happen. But the reaction of many — that George is not a good writer and this is not a well-written book is silly. Yes, it’s art, subjective, blah, blah, blah. There’s an accepted cultural standard of what’s good and what’s not. I don’t have to like it, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t acknowledge what the author was trying to do or their inherent expertise.
For example I hated Factotum with every fiber of my being, but I’m not going to say Bukowski is a poor writer.
I know what Bukowski was trying to say (or at least I tried – I’m not sure if he’s on record on what exactly he was going for but it’s fairly clear). He has skill writing. I just personally hate much of his message and the story. It’s not something I can identify with at all and I find it somewhat tiresome.
But Bukowski is not a bad writer.
AlanQuote Reply
Hilarious song by Paul & Storm!
PeterQuote Reply
Alan,
why is that people who liked the book have to come up with reasons for why other people didn’t like it? It’s so incredibly condescending. Are you seeing me analyzing why so many people also seem like the book? No. The reason is simple: it’s a difference in taste, it has absolutely nothing to do with expectations. It’s obvious most people here loved the first 3 books, after that the opinions start to differ and that is because the style of the books have changed. Some people like this style, other people don’t like it all.
It also isn’t silly to think the last book was crap if you genuinely believe it is, noone is claiming that opinion as a fact in their review. And while it’s culturally accepted that the first 3 books are very good, there’s no way in hell you can claim that about the last 2 books.
KnurkQuote Reply
Whilst it’s certainly not the case that all of the bad reviews were sockpuppets (or the good ones for that matter), it nevertheless remains the case that large numbers of people on certain websites swore to publish 1-star reviews of ADWD on Amazon the second it came out to ‘punish’ GRRM for taking so long to release the book, regardless of it they read it or if it was any good or not. In some cases, they’d actually done so some time earlier (when Amazon mistakenly left a listing up for ADWD that suggested it came out in 2008, allowing people to post reviews of it long before it came out), complained angrily when Amazon deleted the reviews when it updated the database, and promised to repost them as soon as possible.
So we certainly have some evidence that a number of the negative reviews of ADWD, certainly at least a small number of those that appeared soon after publication, were done so dishonestly. GRRM was certainly aware of that issue, which was probably what he was referring to.
Josh,
In the book:
We hear from Barbry Dustin that Brandon loved her, not Catelyn, and was rather cruel and nasty as a person. We then hear from Barristan’s POV that ‘Stark’ dishonored Ashara by getting her with a child – a daughter – driving her mad and to her death, and that Barristan was furious with him. Which doesn’t make any sense given that Barristan was fairly chummy with Ned throughout AGoT and in ADWD itself says he paid Ned’s memory his respects in the Great Sept before fleeing the city. So the most logical conclusion, when combined with the fact from ASoS that Brandon disappeared off to find Ashara at Harrenhal to ask her to dance with his brother, is that Brandon forced himself on Ashara.
The other bit is more straightforward. Jon Connington recalls in his POV that Elia was too weak to bear Rhaegar a third child, and the maesters warned him that she might die if they tried. This is also in the same bit where we realise that Connington was totally gay for Rhaegar :)
Adam WhiteheadQuote Reply
Honestly, it’s time to get out of the message board bubble. The same people that post here post on Westeros and make up most of the 2,000 — good and bad — reviews on Amazon. None of those are an accurate reflection of society of a whole or the collective group of tastemakers out there.
Dance got spectacular reviews. Even if you can find a more tepid one, nowhere will it say “crap.” No literature critic will call it “crap” or imply the writing or storytelling is less than proficient let alone something so far down the scale it is crap.
Furthermore, I’ve seen complaints like “none of the stories have a point.” See, when I read a review like that, I know I’m dealing with someone who either isn’t very quick on the uptake or isn’t trying. You can not like the story, but to pretend there isn’t a message there, well, that’s just silly. It’s not like he’s hiding it. This isn’t Finnegan’s Wake.
Saying something is crap is a blanket statement. It is clearly not “I didn’t enjoy it” or “it bored me at times.” Saying something is crap is saying “It is unenjoyable to all because it is so poorly done is represents the very bottom rung of whatever it is.” There’s simply no backup for that — is A Dance with Dragons really in the bottom whatever percent of novels? Fantasy novels?
I’d have a lot more respect for those who criticize if there were a lot less “ones” on Amazon and a lot less use of the word “crap.” It’s hyperbole fueled by emotion.
AlanQuote Reply
I wonder if he’s aware that someone is posting all those 2 sentence 5-star reviews to keep the book at an average of 3 stars. Because I read a lot of the negative reviews and they all seem to be written by sincere readers who are hugely disappointed by the book. Most of them have the same critical points you point out in your review yet they judge the book harder for those weaknesses. If you can link to a few ‘pre-ADWD’ reviews I’d be interested to read them. If GRRM still thinks that most of those negative reviews (after a sampling size of 2000 reviews) are sockpuppets that will be quite the sad day and is further proof he is living in a bubble where everyone tells him that everything he writes is pure gold and he believes them.
Those ludicrous 5-star reviews on the other hand are just embarrassing and don’t tell anything about the book, all they say is: great sequel, nice cover, great maps, looking very forward to the next one, return of our favourite characters, bought this book for my husband and he loved it, 100 pages in and it’s great.
Just scroll through the 5-star reviews and you can spot them quite easily.
KnurkQuote Reply
Well, that format got all screwed up, and I’m not trying to be a dick about this so:
1) I don’t think everyone who hated it was severely affected by expectations. But many were and there’s a lot of good reasons to think that. There’s also a lot of good reason to think that many reviews were driven by disappointment (tied to expectations). I think it’s rather unrealistic it is all a matter of taste. Again, not saying you or everyone, but many reviews admit this.
2) Regardless of taste, calling something crap is a whole nother level of description of something. It’s placing an overall value on something as very, very low in comparison to like items and it’s by not putting it in personal experience context, it’s stating something objectively. There’s lots of things I don’t enjoy but know aren’t “crap” — and as such I have trouble taking anyone seriously who calls this book “crap.”
3) I also have trouble taking anyone seriously who claims there was no point or nothing happened or any other sort of sign that the person is exaggerating or basically is just not evaluating it fairly.
AlanQuote Reply
yes, ADWD is probably the worst book I ever read. So I definitely call it crap. But something that is crap for me can be a treasure for someone else and vice versa.
critics aren’t objective. They all jumped the HBO hype-train on Dance and hope for a good blurb from GRRM. I’d rather read what longtime bookfans have to say about the book than some snob who got a job at the newspaper and is now trying to be a writer himself.
And I read a lot of 3-4-5 star reviews which upon reading could have easily been 1 or 2 star reviews. Some people are more forgiving in their reviews than others, others are in your eyes unnecessarily harsh. All in all the 2.9 stars probably is a good representation of what people think about the book, a book with very divided opinions about it and all are valid no matter how hard some people try to rationalize the negative ones away.
Also about my condescending statement that it is a matter of taste for everyone you are completely right. I wanted to say that from the hundreds of reviews I have read the vast majority doesn’t hinge (?) their verdicts on their expectations. There will always be people who bitch about the book because the stuff they wanted to happen didn’t happen.
KnurkQuote Reply
lol, we’ll never agree on this so I’ll sum up my take on the three points
1) the disappointment in my eyes stems from the simple fact not enough happened in the book, not from the fact that the things they wanted to happen didn’t happen. Surely people are allowed to be critical of a book when it has more than a 1000 pages and it nowhere near reaches the same level of excitement the first 3 books reached.
2) our definitions of crap probably vary. I do put personal experience in calling something crap. In your definition ADWD is not crap, in my definition it is. Do you think Jack&Jill is crap if you measure it by your crap-standard?
3) I agree the exaggerating reviews aren’t very helpful but they can provide some insight what to expect from the book even though they miss the mark. But the most helpful reviews on Amazon are quite on the spot. Amazon uses these 3 quotes as the most used sentences of every review of Dance:
“ Like a AFfC, there are still too many random characters with POV chapters that add nothing to the overall story other than filler. ”
“ When it did come to an end on the last 10 pages I was left with a feeling that nothing had really happened and that I had read a book of short stories without endings. ”
“ If I wasn’t already bought into the series with books 1-4 (and if I hadn’t waited 6 years for it) I would not have finished this book. ”
KnurkQuote Reply
I know. That is the laziest sort of comment. “Shit, this house is crumbling around me. What shoddy workmanship.” “How dare you say that, are you a carpenter?”
It doesn’t make any sense. It’s ludicrous and nobody who makes that argument ought to be taken seriously.
How about “Name a better done example”? “Name somebody who could do it better”? Those are constructive, non-idiotic replies.
Et cetera. I could be an amputee, does that mean when somebody overcooks a steak I can’t say “Hey this steak is overcooked” even when I’m physically incapable of cooking a steak myself? Lack of arms =/= lack of taste buds.
ZackQuote Reply
Knurk,
I remember Epic (all of them) could not read more than a few chapters because he got bored and I´m sure that he gives a damn about plot-driven books.
andreaQuote Reply
0) The comment “it’s probably the worst book I have ever read” is just incredibly hard for me to accept. I’m curious — what’s your second least favorite book? What are some of your favorite books?
1) I never said people weren’t allowed to be critical. I’ve said I think people are bringing expectations and an emotional element often into it and using hyperbolic descriptions. I’ve said there are perfectly valid reasons as to why someone might not like Dance, and I agree with you that many of those are stylistic. Dance is about character and theme and is slower in “exciting” plot points, for lack of a better word. If you are about plot, I can understand it being less interesting to you than earlier books. But…
2) Our definitions of what is crap to us can vary. But in calling something “crap” is attaching an objective angle to it, whether you like it or not. It’s not just saying “it wasn’t for me” — it’s saying “I think this has no redeeming features and the vast majority of people out there will think it is terrible as well — not only because of personal taste but because it is poorly done by the standards of whatever it is.”
I really don’t like experimental jazz. I would never an experimental jazz artist crap. I’ve never seen Jack and Jill, but there are movies I’d call crap because I think 99% of people would hate it, not just on taste alone but poor execution.
There’s taste, but I think people can tell the difference between I don’t like it but some people may and I think everyone is going to hate that/it’s simply poorly done. When you write something is “crap” — what comes across is an evaluation of the latter.
Even from your own description of Dance (“a 2.9 seems right” ), I think a description of “it’s crap” isn’t conveying the message you want, but I could be wrong.
This is at the core of my complaint. Whether or not you like it, Dance is a well-written book. It is character driven and explores themes and situations most fantasy novels run screaming from. In short, it’s the type of novel that critics, writers and yes, quite a few readers, love. Critics aren’t kissing up to Martin — this is the type of many people love — and book critics especially. As most of those aren’t plot-driven type of readers.
3) Those seem like three very common complaints. If that’s all you’re trying to say, sure. But if you are saying the vast majority of people think that is true of Dance, you can’t really use Amazon reviews that way, especially not for Dance. People have a natural tendency to post more negative reviews than positive naturally, and any self-selecting voting system is by definition not random and therefore is a real bad bet to be extrapolated from 2,000 reviews to the five million people or whatever who bought the book.
AlanQuote Reply
Alan,
I can understand how you feel about the word crap, I felt exactly the same for the word “masterpiece”. Regarding this book (which I didn’t like at all) I couldn’t possibly believe that such a flawed product could be valued like this. So it somehow abandons the “personal estimation” field and it goes emotional (like you suggest) and it’s wrong, creating exaggerations and such.
On another point, concerning the credibility of an artist, I quite disagree with previous posters who “suggest” that a book (movie, painting, whatever) has to be good because a) it is a work from X artist or b) it’s a blockbuster. I admit there are certain artists that never failed their audiences but, due to human nature, that can’t be a canon.
So if Picasso met me somewhere and liked me he could draw something on a napkin and give it to me as a gift. It may be good. It would certainly worth a fortune and people could kill each other in order to have it. But it may also be “crap” with a celebrity signature underneath it.
Then there is this “Dance is a well-written book” where the term should be objective but I feel that (again) ends up describing the subjective opinion of a/some readers. It is a fact that this book was not allowed to be properly edited, admit by GRRM and Ann Groel (the editor). Well, logically, a book that (must) needs editing but it is not allowed one, becomes (or remains) a bad-written book, no matter what critics or people with other agendas claim.
Also I strongly disagree with “People have a natural tendency to post more negative reviews than positive naturally”. People may come up with many reasons and nitpicks to disagree (and we prove to be very creative in that matter) but statistically good is good and bad is bad. Why 95% of the readers of AGoT or ASoS didn’t complain about their quality, instead they put them in their top-ten list? What happened to most of them on the last 2 books? did they lose their wits?
No, I don’t think so. Nobody should follow the majority when there are opinion matters involved but when there’s such a strong voice calling something problematic, to ignore it is to bury the head in the sand.
Kael of the LakeQuote Reply
Alan,
0) Why is it so hard for you to accept, don’t you believe me on my word or are you thinking I’m deceiving myself? My favourite books are dutch, ‘The Discovery of Heaven’ by Mulisch and ‘Beyond Sleep’ by Hermans. I can bore you with a list of other dutch books that I hate but you’ll never have heard of them.
2) I still think it’s crap, a 1-star product that is vastly inferior to the first 3 books. I couldn’t imagine there were people who actually liked this book but when going online I found out there were. So my thoughts on this book very well were “I think this has no redeeming features and the vast majority of people out there will think it is terrible as well — not only because of personal taste but because it is poorly done by the standards of whatever it is.” For me the prime standard of a book is to tell a story, and besides Bran and Reek I couldn’t find one in Dance. Apparently there are some redeeming qualities about this that make people love this book, so therefore it’s not crap by your definition. But I’m starting a reread on july 12, who knows what I’ll think about the book by then.
3) It is a common excuse from people to say that something that is negatively reviewed is because people that didn’t like it are more inclined to post their reviews. So why is it then that there are products that are positively reviewed? In real life I know 6 people who have read the books (all the past year mind you), one was kind of indifferent about it and the other 5 cursed me for recommending this series to them. What more evidence do I need that this book doesn’t sit well with a large part of the fandom?
KnurkQuote Reply
andrea,
To be honest I don’t anything Epic (all of them) has said was entirely sincere. Oh there was an intellectual there I have no doubt, and some passions were revealed but he was a half-hearted troll who lost his fire when no one paid attention to him any more and ended up pissing the moderators off in the end.
As an internet newbie, he was my first Troll, so much to the extent that he went after me all the time. I must have really pissed him off for him to do that. Or probably not. LOL who knows really?
I kinda miss him though…I would have been curious to read his season 2 comments.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Knurk,
What a monster I created…mwwhahahhahahaha
I think what Alan is saying is that when people say “crap” he thinks:
The American Idolization of the music industry
Paris Hilton movies
Keeping Up with the Kardashians
Twilight books
Bratz cartoons
Nickelback
Now these are my personal examples of crap, but of course from person to person they vary. So here’s the crux of the matter: does crap require a history and criteria to call it crap? Does crap in an artistic sense signify an utter lack of taste and originality, the lowest common denominator of a cultural text? Consider: If GRRM has written three awesome novels, where he has shown exemplary skill at narrative and dialogue, couldn’t the last two books which were less than the first three be construed (this is if you have negative opinion) as disappointing failures rather than what the word “crap” suggests? At least to his perspective anyway?
In the end, it matters not really. I am looking forward to your interpretations/musings of ADWD when you re-read it.
Incidentally what made you decide to re-read ADWD anyway?
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Kael of the Lake,
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Speaking as devil’s advocate I think a lot of the fanboyism of ADWD is a result of people so invested in this story world that they believe that to admit that ADWD was less than the previous books essentially threatens the series for them. It makes them question what they have devoted themselves to for so long. Harsh criticism from long time ASOIAF fans on ADWD, protestations of this series is ruined, really really stirs up these doubts and unlike others who vent their anger and frustration and simply move on, they cannot. This what the hardcore haters on this board need to understand, though many of the fanboys may have loved ADWD and defend it to the bone I am sure there are some who did not and cannot fully admit this and see the negative reactions as the deathblow to ASOIAF. This is why fans throw blanket defences regarding “hyping”, “anticipation”, “not edited enough”, “he should have wrote 2 books”. “he is setting up for the next book” etc etc are so prevalent in response to these criticisms. ASOIAF has two books (tentatively) left to go, they want to finish the series, they feel that those abandoning the series now is a complete shock to them. Not when there is a television adaptation on the go, not when it is rapidly becoming a cultural phenomenon. Such is the mindset (or not) of the those who attack criticism of ADWD.
Some people can be let down and simply move on. Others cannot.
Note: I could have replaced mentioning of ADWD and ASOIAF and substituted both with “original trilogy” and”prequel trilogy” as a sly anecdote but as much as I loved/hated ADWD nothing will ever compare to the disappointment I felt after that May evening in 1999. Not to mention the constant state of denial that lasted for several years.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
probably some kind of masochism on my side, but also the ever relentless ‘expectations’ argument people keep using. My expectations will be the following: nothing happens, I’ll be fucking annoyed with most of the characters all the time, I want to claw my eyeballs out.
Looking at these expectations the book can only go up from there and turn out well. You can follow my adventure here http://www.iswintercoming.com/a-dance-with-dragons-re-read-t469.html (as of july 12, I started that thread as a joke back then but now I’m all srs bsns)
KnurkQuote Reply
Knurk,
That site is too negative for my sake. Masochism indeed lol! I’ll follow your re-read posts though. Do me a favour if you can while you re-read it, pay particularly attention to the Lady Dustin scenes and see if my growing theory that a) she and Brandon Stark are Jon Snow’s parents or b) that she and B Stark had a child and that child was replaced with Lyanna and Rhaegar’s baby and therefore meets a cruel fate at King’s Landing. Hence her deep hatred for the Starks, has any legs to stand on.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
holy blasting turtleballs, what kind of theory is that haha. I’ll try but I remember very distinctly that was one of the chapters I thought of: what is this nonsense doing in this book. It probably does have some hidden message because elsewhise that chapter should never have been in the book.
KnurkQuote Reply
I´m sure of it. He may be disappointed though, there were things he was particularly interested in and I don´t think he has been satisfied in that aspect with season 2, but who knows. I’d love to hear what he thinks anyway. I always choose to believe that people are sincere. If it´s true that he didn´t finished reading, he will at some point (or not? lol). At first he thought the book was “very rich”, those were his words.
All that it´s interesting is complex at the same time, I think you know that, and he always had something interesting or funny to say (when he felt like it or something interested him enough). Must say that personally, I think truly simple people is more interesting, but that´s just me. Almost no one argues with you now so, of course you miss him! I know I do. To witness the twists and turns between the two of you was very funny…sometimes ;)
andreaQuote Reply
Knurk,
I’ll have to disagree with you on the nonsense part. That was one of my favourite scenes from the Northern storyline and I found Lady Dustin an intriguing character. It was refreshing to hear that Brandon Stark was a douchebag. Maybe Littlefinger was right about him? While a lot of scenes in ADWD were extraneous I believe that some of them are important to the story, there is a lot of hints regarding the Blackfyres, Bloodraven, the possible affair between Aerys and Joanna Lannister etc. It’s a common defense but to me ADWD was a set up for what is to come. All the pieces are in place. The Sand Snakes are in position to strike, Connington and the Golden company have seized the Griffin’s Roost, Dany I think has realized that she is not meant to be a Queen but a conqueror…
Besides, the very fact that D & D name drop House Dustin and Barrowtown several times in season 2 of GoT seems to be indicative of how non-extraneous these moments may be. Do D & D know something that we don’t? If Jon is Brandon and Barbrey Dustin’s bastard we must consider that Barbrey’s affair with him took place whilst he was betrothed to Catelyn Stark. I can totally see Ned protecting his dead, martyred brother’s honour by marring his own while claiming Jon as his. I can also see Catelyn hating Jon even more if she knows that he is in fact not Ned’s bastard but Brandon’s. The very fact that she was betrothed to someone she knew to be unfaithful to her and then to have the issue of that infidelity to placed on the shoulders of her back-up husband? Yeah, Jon would remind her of many bad things.
Stepping away from this a little bit, I think it would be hilarious that if the show gets to Tyrion’s journey down the Rhoyne, Dinkage adlibs something to the extent: “Are we there yet? I am so fucking sick of the turtles of the Rhoyne!”
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
andrea,
True to all of what you said.
I am still curious to learn what he REALLY thought of The Wire. I was honestly surprised that he thought it was crap. If he did then fine, but to me I think he just enjoyed messing me with me in that regard.
I still think less of him for impersonating another poster who baited me with conversation and a similar attitude to my own. I reported him to the mods for that one. That was not cool. That was when he started to push the envelope.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
That’s actually an interesting idea. I might join you, just to see if I’m still hating everything set in Essos with a fiery passion.
Alex DubrovskyQuote Reply
what? I never heard about that. Doesn´t seem something he would do. So weird.
The wire? hihiih he called it too ambitious, pretentious. Made me laugh (not of him but the situation). But I think I get it. Perhaps he also appreciates simple things (very hard to find). I love The Wire, but I can relate to the distaste for the pretentious in general. I have suffered.
I think he got bored. Just that.
andreaQuote Reply
In truth the Wire is far from pretentious, unfortunately the many people who rave about the show are in fact pretentious.
It’s true, he created a character called ‘Gentilly’ and pretended to be someone like me, conversing about film, literature with big words and a prententious air, he complimented me on something and I replied. He then replied letting me know it was clearly him. I messaged Winter about it (the first time I have ever done that) and before you know it he was gone shortly afterward. I didnt intend for his banning or whatever happened but he went too far.
I don’t like bullies.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Joshua Taylor,
The Wire is not pretentious to me, eh? At all. But it was for him so that`s what I can understand. If something is pretentious to me I surely will call that “crap” (i`m such a Knurk).
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
A “Knurk” ? What is that? Is that the same thing as Grumpkins and Snarks? ;-)
I am not saying your pretentious per se, but I certainly am! I’m a B.A Film Major with a Minor in English, I drink red wine and watch BBC and HBO dramas, and obscure cable series like Burn Notice. I read Leonard Cohen, Neal Stephenson, Charles Dickens. I worship Gillian Anderson. I aspire to be the next Godard, Hitchock, Kubrick, Hawks or Lean. I enjoy microbreweries and platonic love. I go to outdoor music festivals with a Huxley paperback in my back pocket. I quote Arrested Development and live for the Canadian indie scene. Of course I’m pretentious! It’s very clear how I drove Epic nuts.
For the record, Epic watched only the first two episodes of the show. His loss.
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Dutch Grumpkins and Snarks, yes, they´re very emotional, masochistics and relentless critics. And I also heard that they have this bad habit of pulling their eyes out if you give them a bad book to read. Just terrible.
Oh, and this is very important: they never have expectations, no matter how long you make them wait. They´ll hate your guts, though.
Tough things they are.
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
*giggles like schoolgirl* tee hee hee !
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
Great theory Joshua, great indeed. And I concur with Knurk, that passage about lady Dustin seemed so out of place …unless you’re right. Or it can be a red herring put there to water down the R+L theory.
Most of all, you made me realize that proving B Stark’s an a$$hole was a relief. Not only it inserts to the story an element, that a family name doesn’t necessarily describe a person (be a Stark or a Lannister) but it also increases the fondness of (and the investment on) the Starks. Instead of giving them negative points, it proves that this family truly consists of goodwill, good intended characters, raised, not born with sincere traits. Real everyday humans.
Thank you for that.
Kael of the LakeQuote Reply
That’s not bring pretentious….just well rounded! If you’d included Tree of Life by Patrick White…then I would have thrown around the P word!!
NicNicQuote Reply
Kael of the Lake,
Your welcome. Even if B Stark was a douche it still doesn’t take the power out of his demise either. Watch the BRD exclusive animated history of Maester Luwin narrating the death of Brandon and his father. It’s a gut wrenching scenario.
http://youtu.be/jRQkt2wqaCE
Joshua TaylorQuote Reply
andrea,
such delightful creatures.
KnurkQuote Reply
I get the impression from Martin’s answer that the Sansan storyline was just a tease and not something Martin intended to go down to conclusion, which make me sad
oicQuote Reply
They are all equally amazing in their own ways I think. The story is fantastic. Can’t wait for the winds. I loved the dance.
liamQuote Reply
If you can’t see it as art then you obviously don’t know what art is. Cause its completely subjective. There is a message in the game for everyone.
liamQuote Reply
Sure be disappointed but saying they aren’t on the same level as the first three is ludacris. The feast and the dance were extremely critical point in reaching the end. I fell in love with the meerenese society and how dany wore her rabbit ears. The dragons are starting to blossom but I thought jon snow was one of its three heads. I suppose we’ll see, I do believe the final two will give everyone what they’re craving. Cause winter was always coming and now at the end of the dance its finally here.
liamQuote Reply