10 Game of Thrones changes that worked
By Ours is the Fury on in Editorial.

We fans of A Song of Ice and Fire tend to do a lot of complaining about the changes made for the television series. It’s understandable given our massive love for the books. However there have been several alterations to the original story on Game of Thrones that worked perfectly within the context of the show. It’s only logical that there would need to be additions and subtractions in order to make a successful adaptation. That said, here’s a list (in no particular order) of ten changes that worked.

Removing the ambiguity surrounding Loras and Renly’s relationship, and having Loras in his lover’s armor at the end of “Blackwater.”

In A Clash of Kings, it made sense that Loras’s elder brother wore the armor instead, because Loras is noticeably smaller than Renly. In the show, they aren’t so different in height and body type, and it was much more impactful to see heartbroken Loras going to war in his love’s armor. Seeing Loras and Renly interact as a couple made the young king’s life (and death) more involving, and gave him real heart.

Shae’s personality adjustment and backstory

In ASOIAF, Shae is a common young woman of Westeros who provides comfort and no challenge to Tyrion. That worked for the books. We only spend a few days or weeks reading a book, but we’re spending years with Shae on a TV series. It would be fairly boring to see him mooning over a woman that we know little about and has no real affection for him. It makes sense for the TV version of Shae to be more intriguing for one of the cleverest men in Westeros.

Putting a face to the rulers of Qarth in the Spice King

Qarth is ruled in A Clash of Kings by the Pureborn, who are descendants of royalty, and various merchant guilds fighting for power.It works fine for the book, but onscreen, keeping track of the Thirteen, the Spicers, the Pureborn and the Tourmaline Brotherhood would be a nightmare. Streamlining is necessary, and Game of Thrones created an opponent to embody the wealthiness, snobbery and extravagant nature of the rulers. The Qartheen leaders needed an identifiable face aside from Xaro, and the show succeeded in creating one.

Deleting Chett from the Night’s Watch storyline

Chett is Maester Aemon’s assistant in A Game of Thrones until Jon Snow, fearing for his friend’s safety, convinces the maester to take Samwell Tarly on as his aide. This earns Jon and Sam another enemy, and Chett is plotting revenge as the prologue POV character in A Storm of Swords, until the Others arrive and the horn blasts three times. Deleting this character is another good example of streamlining. Sam is simply assigned to the stewards without fuss. The arrival of the Others/White Walkers occurred in the season two finale under different circumstances than in ASoS, and Chett wasn’t missed at all.

Irri and Rakharo’s connection

Though there is a discussion in A Dance with Dragons that shows Irri has a thing for Rakharo, Elyes Gabel was originally supposed to be playing the young and lean bloodrider Jhogo who uses a whip to stop Viserys from hurting his khaleesi. His name was swapped because of its similarity to Drogo, and so the character Rakharo in the books isn’t much like the show’s version. The chemistry between Gabel and Amrita Acharia was amazingly strong for characters that never touched or spoke of their feelings. The show provides an opportunity for non-POV characters to have moments that make them richer and more real. Their premature killing-off from the show hurt like hell, but watching Irri grieve for a man she never got to be with, as far as we know, was heart-wrenching drama.

Ned spotting Arya before his execution

In A Game of Thrones, Ned dies on the steps of the Great Sept without knowing what has happened to his younger daughter. Yoren spots Arya in the crowd, and hides her face as her father is beheaded. On Game of Thrones, her father sees Arya holding onto the statue of Baelor, and says “Baelor” to the Night’s Watch recruiter as he passes by. And so in the show, Ned is given one last good act- trying to save his daughter, lost in the crowd.

Onscreen Ends for Yoren, Septa Mordane, and Rodrik Cassel

Strictly speaking, we don’t watch Mordane die, but we see her face Lannister guards while sending her charge Sansa off to hide herself. Her fate is clear and she meets it bravely.  In A Game of Thrones, the holy woman disappears during the purge of the Stark household from King’s Landing, but we never know what happened to her until Sansa sees her head on the wall, along with Ned’s.

Yoren is found dead by Arya after the fight with Amory Lorch’s men in A Clash of Kings, with an axe in his head. His story on the show about killing Willem is also a new addition. His utterly badass final fight with Lorch’s men was a much more exciting end for a cool character.

Ser Rodrik’s death in ACoK occurs offscreen, at the hands of someone else entirely. His death by execution on Game of Thrones is somewhat similar to the death of Benfred Tallhart in the books. (Tallhart spits on Theon, calls him a traitor, and Theon’s men encourage him to execute Benfred or it will reflect poorly on him.) Ser Rodrik’s execution in “The Old Gods and the New” is one of the best scenes in season 2.

Theon’s Letter To Robb

The addition of Theon writing a letter to warn Robb of attack on the North, and then burning it, gives us a glimpse into the turmoil Theon may have experienced in A Clash of Kings, but wasn’t actually part of the text. In the novel, Balon informs Theon of his plans, and then we rejoin Theon some time later when he is on way to raiding the shore. The new scene allows us to understand the conflict inside the Starks’ ward and the tremendous weight of betraying his best friend for the sake of his kin.

Cersei’s story for Tommen in “Blackwater”

We are told in A Clash of Kings that Cersei would rather die than be taken by Stannis’s forces. On the show, we see just how far she is willing to go. Her haunting story about the creatures bowing to the lions, spoken as the Battle of Blackwater peaks, is a completely new addition, as is her almost mercy-killing Tommen with an overdose. “Blackwater” could’ve just been a noisy bucket of cool explosions without potent emotional scenes like this.

Drogo and Rhaego appear in the House of the Undying

“If I look back, I am lost.” The huge changes made to the House of the Undying sequence are controversial, but the appearance of Daenerys’s late husband and the child they could have had underline a recurring theme in Dany’s story. To take back her throne she must continue onward, setting aside the past, or she will drown in sorrow. It can certainly be debated that removing the prophecies of the Undying was a mistake. However,  the Drogo and Rhaego portion of the vision was a good flesh-and-blood interpretation of Daenerys seeing the house with the red door in A Clash of Kings‘s Undying chapter. The house with the red door represents her longing for her childhood home, a place of safety and family with Viserys and Ser Willem Darry, their protector. In letting go of Drogo and the baby, the ideal family she craved, Daenerys shows she will not be swayed by dreams that weaken her. It also provided an opportunity for her to say goodbye to the young husband who was taken from her so suddenly.

Ours is the Fury: What other changes and additions for the show do you think worked well?


386 Comments

  1. Fire And Blood
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Perfect.

  2. Viv
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    The Arya and Tywin scenes. Great character moments.

  3. stroll
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    Great article.

  4. Chickenduck
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Fourth!

    And I agree with all of what the article says, except that I’d have liked to see more of the actual visions in the House of the Undying.

    Y’know, some more hardcore foreshadowing and stuff…

  5. Omar Brown
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    I also liked the swordfight between Ned and Jaime, so much better than a damn horse breaking Ned’s leg.

    I also liked Stannis at the Battle of Blackwater. In a way it made sense, Melissandre had him convinced that he would win the crown, so Stannis would’ve been certain no harm would come to him, even when leading the vanguard.

  6. Gobiel
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    The Osha changes were great as well IMO, and the Arya changes concerning Harrenhal make her decisions more understandable (killing the Tickler, the man that will tell Tywin, the fact that she doesn’t reveal herself in the novel (which was great though we couldn’t understand why until the Red Wedding and the WF sack) etc…)

  7. JonathanL
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    This article, and the comments that have posted already, really highlight how much the show added or changed with great success. I think most hardcore book fans call out the things that didn’t quite work (Roz), but there’s a ton of work that went into changes that worked well.

  8. The Winter Rose
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    I will agree with most of these but two: Shae and Dany’s dreamscape.
    To me, Shae came off as incredibly haughty and obnoxious for someone who is supposed to be a slave. There was no sense of impish youth to her. I just really was not digging this Shae at all.
    Also, not being a fan of Dany and Drogo’s relationship, even though I think Jason Momoa is awesome, I really would have rather seen Rhaegar and more of the other visions she gets.
    But hey, those are just my opinions. It wasn’t a deal breaker or anything :)

  9. Bootsy
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Second with Stannis going over the wall. As well as Davos being named Hand prior to Blackwater.

  10. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    Shae was probably my favourite change of all as well as the deaths of Yoren and Ser Rodrik.
    However the best change of all was the duel between Ned and Jaime. Nicolaij was bloody fantastic in that scene, the look on his face when his character realises that Ned is more than a match for him. Amazingly well done!
    I also loved the way the show made you care a lot more for Robert, his war stories scene as well as the one with Cersei where they discuss their marriage was magical.

  11. OhMan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    This list was missing two MAJOR changes:
    1. Tywin Arya conversations – that was an amazing addition.

    2. The death of Xaro – massive change from the books, good or bad?

  12. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Most of these I agree with- but while Chett wasn’t strictly necessary, I do wish Jon suggesting Sam should be Aemon’s steward had been kept in, as I think this showed why it was worth training him for command.

    Other changes that did work- Arya being Tywin’s cupbearer. Loved all their scenes. I do wish she’d had a few more names, like in the book (she could have been ‘Nan’ at least). But putting those two together for a while was a brilliant idea.

    Shae becoming Sansa’s handmaiden earlier than in the books makes sense too, as a way to hear Sansa’s thoughts and a way to streamline the story. Lollys can still appear later if she’s needed (or just be mentioned by Bronn).

    Robb’s offer to let the Ironborn go if they give up Theon was a good one, and the betrayal that followed was a change I liked too. No-one is loyal to Theon and no-one is willing to die for him. That’s something that works, and it underscores what he’s given away- had he stayed on Robb’s side, he’d have true friends and allies.

  13. Elevated INR
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    I found that most, almost all, of the added scenes in season 1 [including the ones not mentioned here] worked amazing for me and very well for the adaptation.. But most of the changes from the book in season 2 in my opinion were not as good, and some really stinked… [killing of irri + Rhakarro, the house of the undying- it would have been very nice if they included the prophecies there-it would have given us something to think about when the season ended.. I cannot believe the writers resorted to the cheap trick of bringing a dead character back instead to try and please the audience..., and O CMON!! you have to be a really die hard fan to notice that loras was wearing renly's armor in that last scene... and the one change the was.. interesting.. and worked well is that done to Arya's story line.. and you did not even mention it in the 10 changes.. also a lot of the writing in season 2 was choppy: why introduce Sallador Sahn if we are never going to see him again this season? Why introduce Theon's whore on the ship if she is never going to shout out to Theon and embarrass him in front of his sister? and... Pycelle was out of the room when Tyrion whispered "for your trouble".. and what on earth was the point of the Hound's monologues on "killing"!!?! and Jon! why make him look so stupid and clumsy.. and the writers definitely "adapted" his scenes with Qhorin at the end in such a way that most non-readers did not understand that Qhorin basically asked Jon to kill him.. I can really type an essay about all the writing problems in season 2.. no I didnt expect season 2 to be perfect.. but I also did not expect it to be this flawed... I can seriously sit down and watch season 1 again from beginning to end without skipping any scenes [except for that scene with Loras shaving Renly of course].. but I cannot say the same about season 2…. im done ranting.. had to get that all out

  14. Rager
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Irri and Rakharo’s connection…was heart-wrenching drama???? No…

  15. Becky Wilson
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    I agree with all of these, without reservation. I’d switch out the Chett one with Arya and Tywin’s interactions at Harrenhall for a top ten list, but that’s really it. I might also switch out Irri/Rakharo for the increased on screen interaction between Littlefinger and Varys.

    That being said, the only change I can think of that I’ve absolutely disagreed with, was really the reduction of the Hound’s role; especially Littlefinger telling Sansa his origin story. Don’t get me wrong, I dig Aiden Gillen, but Rory McCann is killing it as the Hound (I intend all puns, because they’re hilarious). Without even getting into any San/San issues, I think the Hound should be -more-. But that is about it. there’s a few other little minor things that don’t bother me as much, but I am very, very pleased.

    (I’d have listed two, but the Blackfish is cast, so the savage Becky is soothed.)

  16. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    OhMan,

    all in all I enjoyed Xaro Zohan Ducksauce from the series alot more than the albino from the books (although the Quarth storyline was a bit thin in both formats)

  17. Tyrion4Lyfe
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    The Varys-Littlefinger interactions in season one were pure gold. They highlighted the goals and aspirations of the two men in very succinct yet elaborate ways.

  18. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Elevated INR,

    The Loras/Renly scene wasn’t so difficult to see if you’ve read the book (which you obviously have) you were waiting for someone in Renlys armour to lead a cavalry charge. I mean the Baratheon antlers on the helm gave it away. What I was not expecting was Loras’ face when he took it off.
    Theon’s whore served for some sexposition on the Iron Islanders, to my memory the only one in the entire season.
    But I am with you a hundred percent on Jon’s storyline, especially the fight with Quorin.

  19. Adam
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    Put a spoiler alert on this article! For the most part this is okay for non-book readers who have seen the first two seasons but they don’t yet know that the Bastard of Bolton was involved in the sacking of Winterfell, and it looks like they’re setting Boltons’ betrayal up to be a pretty important shocker this season.

  20. Jillian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Arya and Tywin are the best change to this season. Every time I saw them both on screen I would be surprised they were doing another scene of the two of them, and then i would be blown away and it would be my favorite part of that episode. Plus, any change that gets us more Maisie or Charles Dance is welcome IMO. Definitely worth a mention here.

  21. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Adam,

    Yeah after the finale aired I was wondering why no explanation was offered as to why Winterfell was sacked by the very men who were supposed to save it.

  22. He Who Slithers
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    great list, i love reading all the changes. I enjoyed the Shae changes, Ned’s fight with Jaime, the Yoren death scene, Theon… well everything Theon, etc.

    that said, i agree with others that said the Loras-wearing-Renly armor might not have been too noticeable. I had no idea until I read this page. And, also as others said, the Arya-Tywin change was not only a great change, their scenes were some of my favorites.

    The only disagreement I had was with the House of the Undying changes. Actually, a lot of the Qarth changes were a bit rough at times. I hope they revise how they portray Dany in S3–no more screaming and temper tantrums, i beg of thee.

  23. Ldcftoos
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Elevated INR: . I cannot believe the writers resorted to the cheap trick of bringing a dead character back instead to try and please the audience.

    The writers did please the audience, the T.V audience. Jason Mamosa’s Drogo was one of the biggest favorite with people who watch the T.V show. The vast majority of watchers never read the books and most of the them will never have an interest in reading the books. If GOT made a real severe break from the book but the audience numbers continue to rise the executives will be very happy. At this time, they took different roads but the general direction really remains the same. I just started reading the books about a month ago, now up to F.F.C. So comparing both at the time I did not see a huge divergence in the character places at the end of C.O.K. where I can not get a reasonable sense where these characters are going to go starting next season with the possible exception of Arya which was a large change from the book.

  24. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Ldcftoos,

    While I wish we’d seen the prophecies, they didn’t make sense with the situation as set up- the warlocks (in the series) wanted Dany to stay put, so they had no reason to show her things she might do in the future that weren’t staying there forever.

    Of course this could have been written differently from the start, but once it was decided that the warlocks wanted Dany+dragons kept there, the prophecies were never going to make it in.

  25. LordEddardStark
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    About time we get an interesting article like this!

    One of my favorite changes would have to be Ned and Jaime’s fight outside Baelish’s brothel. Much more exciting seeing Ned kick some ass, even if he necessarily isn’t the best swordsman. While the scene in the book was great, they one-upped Ned’s badassery.

    And Blackwater’s watering down of the battle was a change that worked for me. Though there may have been epic ship fights and Tyrion’s giant chain, it still felt like an epic battle nonetheless.

  26. Watson
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Elevated INR:
    I cannot believe the writers resorted to the cheap trick of bringing a dead character back instead to try and please the audience…, and O CMON!!

    This would be easier to take seriously if GRRM hadn’t done it himself in showing Rheagar and Elia. Using magic as a way to remind a character of her past isn’t half as cheap as using magic as a way to explain backstory to the audience. Forgive me if I’m not disappointed that the writers decided to dispense with using the revelation of backstory as a climax to the season. Sometimes you can please the audience and deliver something meaningful.

    Anyway, great article. I would add the scene between Cat and Littlefinger as a clever little moment original to the series.

    I don’t really mind it when the writers eliminate things that non-readers wouldn’t be able to follow. And every now and then the show feels like it’s trying too hard to be faithful, for example including Salladhor Saan for what appears to be no reason whatsoever. In the first season I was pretty surprised by how much work they put into the Ser Hugh storyline.

    Some changes, I can do without. I suspect that some things – like the distinctly less dramatic endings to Arya and Jon’s storylines – are born of the desire to delay character development so that is happens more evenly throughout saga. But some things are just annoying. For some reason I’m still really bothered by the way Luwin spots Osha in the castle yard in the middle of the day when she’s supposed to be hiding in the crypts. It would have been so easy to produce the same result by having Luwin visit the crypts to mourn the fallen Starks, only to find Bran and company. Would have been more powerful and avoided making Osha look like a dunce.

  27. Ash
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I think when dany was at the wall walking towards drogos tent, it wouldn’t have hurt for her to notice a blue rose in the snow and pick it up?!?!

  28. queenofthorns
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    Elevated INR,

    MTE…

    Also reducing Dany’s “character development” to WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS OH THERE THEY ARE

  29. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    BTW Ours is the Fury

    Thank you for taking our feedback after your previous well written article and writing another deliciously debate material filled one. I’m sure we will be arguing about some of these changes for days to come.

  30. queenofthorns
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Shinyteapot,

    once it was decided that the warlocks wanted Dany+dragons kept there, the prophecies were never going to make it in.

    Your argument makes no sense, as the undying wanted Dany + dragons kept there in the book as well. Do you consider it a plot hole in the books?

  31. sjwenings
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    I agree with all the changes mentioned in the article. (For season 1, I would have disagreed with Shae, but not at all for s2) Generally, I find the changes made for the show exiting (because it’s new, and I don’t know what to expect), and often they improve on the story and characters. It’s especially satisfying when they make changes I have already thought about myself.

    Other changes I liked: Ned vs Jaime, Cersei Jon and Aryas slower characterdevelopment (I assume thats what they’re aiming for), alterations to Sam, Arya hanging out with Tywin instead, and many more that I can’t think of right now.

    Changes I did not like much: Jon getting (almost) with Ros. Seems too dishonorable for him (and unecessary for the son of a lord, and quite the looker), Jaime being both incredibly dumb and also quite evil, killing his cousin without reason – he could have just asked him to lay down and wriggle. Shame is, if we just disregard this, it’s a damn good scene. I got goosebumps when he said “you have to die” and looked at him with that weird, blank face.

  32. darquemode
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Great article and I agree with 9 of the 10 changes whole-heartedly!

    Another change (less of a plot change and more of a prop change) I think works is toning down GRRM’s colorful Fantasy world. While I do miss the colorful armor and weapons and hair, I think that removing them was the right thing to do and made for an environment that is more believable and realistic.

    A couple other smaller changes I liked… The hill tribes disappearing earlier than in the books and the change to a more pro-active Osha.

    I’m conflicted on the Tywin and Arya scenes honestly. I think they were great, but I think there were one or two too many that were completely unnecessary and slowed down (or stole from) other aspects of the story. The scenes themselves were great though.

  33. Eleanor
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    OhMan: 2. The death of Xaro – massive change from the books, good or bad?

    Xaro on the show was a completely different character to Xaro in the books, so in fact it’s more along the lines of:

    Change: Deletion of book Xaro who pops up again in a later book and replacement with TV Xaro who dies.

  34. Eleanor
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    The Cersei and Tommen change was a lovely and probably serendipitous bonus.

    It was simpler in the TV show for Tyrion’s 3 proposals to all be about marrying Myrcella off, rather than about a mixture of Tommen’s fostering and Myrcella’s betrothal. I thought no more about it until they created such a wonderful storyline for Cersei now that Tommen hadn’t left the city.

  35. Watson
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    darquemode,

    I really liked the early Tywin-Arya scenes, but when he kept saying that he didn’t buy her story but continued to indulge her anyway, it got pretty irksome.

  36. The Queen's Hand
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    I do hope we have a list of “10 changes that didn’t work” coming.

  37. angel
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Varys and Tyrion scenes were amazing, and gave me chills each and every time. More please!

  38. Al Swearengen
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    I don’t agree with The House of Undying, that was the showrunners chances to reward the readers and instead they gave us just another chance to see Moma.

  39. Balerion
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    That was a nice read

  40. blackbird7309
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Look at us! We´re praysing changes from the books and rightfully so :D
    This was indeed a nice read!

  41. Watson
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Al Swearengen:
    I don’t agree with The House of Undying, that was the showrunners chances to reward the readers and instead they gave us just another chance to see Moma.

    I’m pretty sure the reward you’re getting from the showrunners is the entire frakking show.

  42. Not Today
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Tyrion and Bronn. Bronn, a character who I didn’t care AT ALL in the books is one of my favorites in the show.

  43. Dornishman
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    @Elevated INR

    Why do you take issue with the Loras/Renly scene in season 1? What’s wrong with it?

  44. Ed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Good one viv! I agree!

    Viv:
    The Arya and Tywin scenes. Great character moments.

  45. Eleanor
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Dornishman: Why do you take issue with the Loras/Renly scene in season 1? What’s wrong with it?

    Two words: foley artists.
    And I usually ENJOY homoerotica…

  46. Ed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Ash:
    Chickenduck,

    I think when dany was at the wall walking towards drogos tent, it wouldn’t have hurt for her to notice a blue rose in the snow and pick it up?!?!

    Well, too bad D&D didn’t read your mind from the future….

    (Come on, how easy is it to think of cool ideas after the fact??)

  47. Watson
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    I’m always game for some decent homoerotica but the Renley/Loras shaving scene is super awkward. That said, it is certainly not unwatchable, and the season 2 scenes were all fine.

    OTOH, I have still never made it all the way through the Littlefinger monologue.

  48. Alan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Great article and agree with pretty much all of them as positives.

    I think a good portion of all the changes are pretty necessary, even if they all aren’t executed exceptionally well.

    I also find it interesting that the Tommen/Cersei scene was written by Martin himself. There’s a definite distinction to changing something that occurred in the book and adding something that could have or did happen (e.g. the focus on the bastard killing). Both “changes” can be necessary or good to do, but the latter always feel less jarring to book readers.

    That Tommen/Cersei scene is one of my favorites. I really can’t understand why people keep asking Martin about the Hound/Bronn scene — which is kind of whatever — rather than the Cersei scene. I know people like the who would beat who arguments, but I found that scene a bit pointless. Not unenjoyable, but not really worth the time.

  49. Alan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    There’s also a common thread on a few of these in terms of reason: Shae, Irri & Rakharo and on screen deaths.

    They are good changes because of the loss of the POV structure. We only see Shae through Tyrion’s eyes, and she becomes defined in terms of how he sees her, what he needs from her. To leave her that one dimensional would be unrealistic and cartoonish in a third person show.

    The Rakharo-Irri dynamic is just a small thing that fleshes out characters that again, are only there to serve Dany. These things could have existed, but Dany doesn’t notice.

    And the on screen deaths are similar as well. It would feel odd to have so many people die off screen — in the books we understand the POV structure and the dynamic is tempered by the realism of the uncertainty of not being there, etc., but in a third person POV and a visual medium, to have so many people die without showing it would seem off.

    I know I’m repeating a lot of the article, but the lack of POV structure dictates a lot of changes — and I think a lot of folks underestimate that.

  50. Caro H
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Sandor telling Sansa he will stand between her and joff and sansa telling Sandor she knows he will not hurt her

  51. Ren Snow
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Arya and Tywin – except for the rather contrived scene with Littlefinger.

    As for Qarth… it lost some of its mystery and wonder and feels like a generic Free City.

  52. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns,

    The undying attacked her after her visions, but didn’t steal the dragons or blatantly tell her she was to stay there forever, as in the series. So it would have been more obviously out of place there.

    Assuming their motivation in the book was to trap/kill Dany it is indeed an issue there too. It’s less clear cut though- in the books she could have chosen to leave Qarth without ever going there, in the show her hand was forced.

  53. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    I liked Sandor not being a creepy drunken pedophile the most , that way at least i can like him and the HOTU scene being cut because i hate prophecies and that left a bad taste in my mouth than only Blackwater saved it and the Theon ending .

  54. Jak
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    I agree with all but 2,

    Irri “romance” was a huge nothing, so I don’t agree that it was even a change.

    Also, having Drogo back for a scene was nice, but the complete lack of the rest of the house of the undying was terrible. HOTUD is my favorite scene in Dany’s storyline and the complete lack of it and the lack of all the history and foreshadowing is going to result in a lack of a cohesiveness found in the novels.

  55. Ours is the Fury
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    The Irri-Rakharo thing didn’t exist in the books, and certainly not him dying and her grieving over him, so it’s most definitely a change.
    I liked TV-Xaro and found him more interesting than book-Xaro but I don’t know yet what the repercussions of the change will be. It’s hard to praise a change like his S2 arc and his probable death in the vault when it might cause a big problem once it’s time to adapt ADwD.

    You’ll notice I like the Drogo portion of the HOTU but I didn’t mention the rest. It’s a similar issue- I’m not sure what the repercussions of removing the prophecies will be, but I do think that some of the prophecies were shown in the episode, in metaphorical form visually. And removing the prophecy about the feast of corpses and the man with the head of the wolf was absolutely the right change because it telegraphs the most shocking event in ASOS. Onscreen it would’ve been so blatant that it would kill the surprise.

  56. Topdecker
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Varys and Littlefinger conversations. Arya and Tywin conversations. The Hound vs Bronn before Blackwater.

  57. John-Michael Lelievre
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Stannis being all badass during the Battle of the Blackwater!

  58. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown,

    Agreed, that was one of the better adaptations of the show!

  59. Adam
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Thanks for taking my suggestion into account and editing that spoiler out! +10 for bloggers paying attention to comments :)

  60. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu,

    Yeah, they made Sandor stoic compared to sinister which I like. Plus the changes they made to the King’s Landing Riot where he saves Sansa were way better due to the intensity of that particular scene.

  61. darquemode
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Watson,

    Agreed.
    As individual scenes I appreciated them for the acting and direction, but as part of a greater story I thought they were repetative and unneeded towards the end too.

  62. jess
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Great writing, and I agree with most of it! And yes, the Arya and Tywin scenes were great! (and of course, littlefinger and varys, and the changes to cersei)

  63. The Young Wolf
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I’m still so disappointed by THOTU. REALLY wanted to see Rhaegar & Aerys. I think the story is really going to be lacking if they don’t delve into the history and prophecies of ASOIAF.

  64. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Forgot to mention Arya becoming Tywin’s cup barer instead of Roose’s was a fantastic change. For all the things the writers have changed that readers complain about, they have done a great job balancing it out with even better scenes than the books.

  65. darquemode
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I agree about removing those specific visions at the HotU.
    Even though I do severely miss the prophecy and connection to the larger narrative in Dany’s arc and I think they missed a chance to connect at the HotU, I do understand why some visions needed to be removed…

    However, I think there are enough prophecies in ASoIaF that D&D could have found a way to connect Dany and insert prophecies in some manner that would not have been too obvious and wouldn’t spoil upcoming events. I’m hoping it is all part of their overall plan and they are slow playing that aspect of the saga.

  66. Ash
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    Well the blue rose indicates Jon at the wall but I think snow in the throne room is designed to replace that vision but a blue rose after would be good for fans.
    I don’t think it would be that hard to think of it for talented writers like D&D. IT’S IN THE DAMN BOOK. And everyone assumed as a blue rose can’t cost that much it would be in there in some way.
    So what exactly is your point? I can’t put forward my thoughts?

  67. laurat
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Eleanor: Two words: foley artists.
    And I usually ENJOY homoerotica…

    Had to look up the meaning, but almost spit my drink out after reading the definition….I know exactly to what you are refering . I’m not homophobic in the least but it was a bit eww inducing.

  68. Ash
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    For the record I think D&D did awesome job on adaptation and im not saying me or anyone else could have done better (obviously) but blue rose would have been easy.

  69. JP
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    no mention to arya + tywin?? srsly? i’m disappoint

  70. Superdeluxe
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    I think we are missing one, I think the conversation they added with Cersei and Robert was great..

  71. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    I agree with most of these changes , though I don’t think they all worked equally well.. High on my list would be Cersei / Tommen, Ser Rodrik , Yoren ( the adored one ) , Theon’s letter.

    With others ,I thought the idea of the change was ok, or even good, but thought they missed a beat in the handling of it. Renly /Loras.. I thought didn’t convey the depth of love it should have.Even if they’d only shown more of Loras’ grief , it would have worked better.

    I generally didn’t like the writing in the quarth scenes, so that dampens my ability to appreciate the changes…. Dany/Drogo was very affecting , but I miss the book stuff from HoTU, and I think Dany’s sense of destiny suffers by the exclusions..she’s reduced to repetitions of , I will take what is mine, etc. etc. And I couldn’t believe they’d put her at the wall and leave out the blue rose… that much at least , would not have been a drain on the budget.

    Although I loved the interplay between the characters in the Arya / Tywin scenes , I’m glad they’re not included here. I felt that they robbed time from the Arya / Jaqen interplay and consequently was there was of Arya / Jaqen was mediocre writing at best.

    Tom made a great Jaqen ..but he wasn’t given much to sink his teeth into , and Tywin will have many more chances to shine.

  72. SDGM
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t read the books but my friend is keeping me updated on what’s been changed as we watch together. One thing he raves about that wasn’t mentioned on the list was Arya’s scenes with Tywin. I couldn’t imagine the tv show without most of the things mentioned on this list, they’re such strong moments.

  73. eZathras
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    I can’t get the Contact form on this site to work for me. Should it work, or is there an alternate way of getting in touch? Thanks.

  74. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Superdeluxe,

    Yeah last year it was voted “best added scene” by the WIC.net users, surprised it wasnt on the list.

  75. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Agreed about the Renly/Loras scene. THe series made it seem as if Loras, much like Margeary, was only in love with the idea of being with a king.
    His reaction in the books was sorely missed although I still think killing two members of the Kingsguard for Renly’s death is a bit hypocritical as he, Lord Commander, of the Kingsguard couldn’t stop it either.

  76. Roey Wullman
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Now gogo make a list of the 100 worst changes :(

  77. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Hello everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster.

    First I want to thank you all for your insightful comments that make all these months in between shows more bearable and enjoyable, and save my friends and relatives from being pestered with GOT chat before, during and after the show. This is the best forum I’ve ever read and I just wanted to thank all those who make it what it is, from Wic to the posters.

    I agree with Fury in most of the changes, except maybe for Hotu.While I found it visually beautiful, I was really looking forward to some prophecy and foreshadowing, and a certain blue rose, and I still hope some of it will somehow make it to next season. While I do like the lighter approach the series has to these elements, I think the story would be less enjoyable if they are completely removed.

    A few other changes I liked, from the top of my head, are:

    Osha 2.0
    I love the way they’ve spruced up this character. They’ve turned a fairly minor character in one of the most enjoyable, mysterious and engaging ones.

    Theon and maester Luwin’s conversation
    “you may be right, but i’ve gone too far to prented to be anything else”. priceless.

    Holding off the introduction of the Reeds and the Tullys
    There’s only so many new characters you can truly take in and start relating to per season, and given that in season two we had the introduction the Stannis and the Greyjoys, it made a lot of sense to hold off the Tullys and the Reeds.

    Ageing up the characters
    It made several storylines easier to digest. Regardless of what went on during our own medieval times, reading about a 13 year old being basically sold into marriage is tough enough, but having to witness it onscreen would have been too much for many. Making the character’s age match closer what we are used to expect from people of that age, even if it doesn’t match what was historically expected in our own middle ages, makes the characters more relatable and believable, in my opinion, from Daenerys to Robb Stark. Plus, it gives as the privilege to enjoy the outstanding performances of Sean Bean and Michelle Fairley.

    Varys-Littlefinger sparring
    Need I say more?

    Bronn’s job/Davos’ only son
    Great examples of good streamlining.

    Subtler fantasy palette
    No purple eyes, bright red and white hair and a more modest (less distracting) Qarthian attire, for example. But more importantly, the generally more subtle and sparse appearance of the magical elements of the story make the whole world more relatable and ease the immersion in if of many people who wouldn’t normally be too much into the genre. I believe by the time magic gets bigger & louder, they’ll be too hooked to let go.

    Melisandre’s dress down
    I know that a lot of people won’t share this point of view, but even if I don’t particularly like the handling of several of her scenes, I certainly welcome a less conventional “evil sorceress” Melisandre in favor of this inscrutable, enigmatic foreigner.

    Arya and Tywin “Anyone can be killed” scene
    I was entranced by their first interaction, however I felt that towards the end they were little repetitive and eroded some credibility.

  78. James
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Regarding the “couldn’t they have just thrown a blue rose in”; no, they couldn’t. It wouldn’t make sense to show-only viewers, at all.

    Blade Runner did something like that… the original release cut the short sequence of Deker dreaming of the unicorn. When the unicorn origami shows up at the end, it’s a big WTF??? moment because it doesn’t have any meaning. With the unicorn scene restored in the director’s cut, it’s an incredibly powerful moment.

    Without the Tower of Joy, a blue rose in the Dany scene would have been pure fan service and would not have made sense for the show at all.

    I missed the visions from the book a lot… but I completely agree that the visual medium would remove the subtlety and would have spoiled upcoming events far too greatly. Sadly, just not something that translates well from the written page to the screen.

  79. Ash
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    James,

    King Robert B lay blue roses down at lyannas crypt in episode 1. So there is history of the blue rose however small.
    Don’t forget there would be no series without the true book fans and puttin something in to satisfy the fans i think would have gone down well.
    Besides it would come together by the story’s end however many episodes it takes.
    I.e. weir woods, Sean bean happy to re appear for flashbacks etc……

  80. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    I don’t think there was supposed to be anything logical about Loras’ reaction. I do wish we’d seen that on screen. Their story could have done with a little more romance, I got the impression they very much enjoyed sleeping together but not that they were deeply in love.

    A few of Stannis’ men shouting about Renly at Blackwater would have pointed out the armour to those who didn’t know to look. Or a confused mumble from Tyrion. Still, it’s entirely possible there will be passing mention of Renly’s ghost next year.

  81. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Yeah , I don’t even say that Loras’ grief should have been shown in the same way it was in the books. ( though in the books , it didn’t strike me as hypocritical, but that he couldn’t think .. was so overcome with rage and sorrow , he was just lashing out. ) Still, there are any number of ways that kind of blind, all-engulfing grief could be shown . That it wasn’t , and that he can think clearly enough to rule out Brienne , is an unecessary deviation that trivializes R/L’s feeling for each other . So the sexual part of their relationship has been played up, while the emotional side is played down. Doesn’t make much sense to me…at least in terms of character development.

  82. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    One thing i hope they leave out in the future seasons is the whole dumb Maggy the frog prophecy for Cersei, because it’s such a stupid and ridiculous subplot not to mention that it feels like Martin was ripping off Snow White with the whole younger and more beautiful queen ,like really ?

  83. The Rabbit
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    I am going to add a few things that really worked well for me:

    1. Margery Tyrell – I was sceptical when Natalie Dormer was cast.
    But somehow it worked. And it worked very well.

    2. Davos – more proactive and more badass than the character in the books, yet he is still Davos.

    3. Arya and Tywin – as some posters mentioned above – it was absolutely great.

  84. BrianAu
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Love the website but you guys totally missed the best change of all which was the Arya/Tywin interactions. I agree with everyone else here needs to be included and was single best adaption on the show this season.

  85. Ours is the Fury
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    BrianAu,

    This isn’t a list of all the changes I like, only 10. But I didn’t include the Tywin-Arya interactions because they do stretch the limits of believability, as enjoyable as the scenes were.

  86. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Seems to me like series Loras was turned on by Renly’s power and only that. Yes no I really did not enjoy Loras this season. Plus am I the only one who thinks he got really fat when compared with how he looked in season 1?

    Shinyteapot,

    In the show one never got the impression that Stannis’ troops switched sides, it wouldve been quite difficult to do. All I saw was Stannis’ troops being swept up in a Ride of the Rohirrim like cavalry charge. So the mention of Renlys ghost becomes irrelevant. I knew it became irrelevant as soon as Renly died without showing a helm with giant antlers. The one Loras wore had little tiny ones but they were way too small.

  87. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    James,

    I can’t agree at all. A blue rose would have been a mystery . Fine , it would have been similar in tone to the books , which are strewn with mystery … There will be seasons and seasons ( I assume the best ) where a passing reference to blue roses could be made here or there…that would bring the blue rose back to the viewers mind ..and IF the great rumor is untrue.. viewers would just assume it was meaningless , if they remembered it at all.

  88. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Please check out the comment I left for you a while back if you’ve missed it.

  89. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    I thought the little antlers were a fair compromise between showiness and practicalitly. It’s battle armour, not for a tourney. It’s a shame it wasn’t so easy to see though. A clearer shot of Renly’s banner would have been enough to point out that this attack was in his name, at least.

  90. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I couldn’t agree more about the Tywin / Arya scenes, and they became repetitive..I thought it was a bit self-indulgent ( and robbed time from Jaqen / Arya as I said ) and to a reader, they may ultimately have been misleading since Arya and Tywin should never meet again ... there may be a false expectation among the viewers.

  91. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    One change that has never worked for me, although this might be nitpicking, and I considered Gethin Anthony awesome in his role, was Renly’s size. In the books he is described as looking almost exactly like a younger Robert, large, strong and robust. Would it have been too much to ask Gethin to go on a high protein diet and enter a rigorous weight training regime? Seeing the dedication of actors like Charlize Theron and the kingpin of body changes Christian Bale, makes one wonder why some actors just wing it. Especially if you consider the publicity such dedication brings.

  92. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Shinyteapot,

    Fair point, but still did you see Robert’s helmet in season 1? Though nothing over the top it could’ve been made a little larger and would still be practical.

  93. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    James,

    I can’t agree at all. A blue rose would have been a mystery . Fine , it would have been similar in tone to the books , which are strewn with mystery … There will beseasons and seasons ( I assume the best ) where a passing reference to blue roses could be made here or there…that would bring the blue rose back to the viewers mind ..and IF the great rumor is untrue.. viewers would just assume it was meaningless , if they remembered it at all.

    This. Couldn’t have put it better.

  94. Alan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Obsidian,

    Agreed about the Renly/Loras scene. THe series made it seem as if Loras, much like Margeary, was only in love with the idea of being with a king.
    His reaction in the books was sorely missed although I still think killing two members of the Kingsguard for Renly’s death is a bit hypocritical as he, Lord Commander, of the Kingsguard couldn’t stop it either.

    They may have removed that element, but what makes you think that Loras was only in love with the idea of being a King?

    In his dialogue, Loras makes it very clear in the show that is distraught with the loss of Renly as a person. Just because he had ambitions for him (as evidenced by pre-death conversations), the post-death lamenting over Renly’s body and his desired revenge prove a sharp contrast to Margaery.

    Just because they didn’t do it the same way as the book doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

  95. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    But Renly isn’t a warrior per se. I think the series were trying to emphasize that it was his charisma and political skill what drove people to him, rather than his military/battle skills. That’s why I didn’t mind the difference myself. Brienne’s case for example is different because how she looks is integral to who she is.

  96. Ours is the Fury
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Oh, glad you’re enjoying it. Things get a little slow in the off-season, it’s a good time to have fun with the material. :)

  97. Ash
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    Cheers for the back up on this guys, blue rose I mean

  98. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Ash,

    Thanks. :) It has nagged me for some time. It would have been been such an easy way to give observant viewers a little mystery that could even lead them to be in the same page as the readers regarding Jon’s parentage, and that didn’t hurt the story at all if it wasn’t picked up, didn’t lose any time, or cost any money… It’s no big deal, but to me it seemed as a missed opportunity. Mystery is a big part of the story. And speculating is a lot of fun. I think it’d have even looked cool visually.

  99. Debbie
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Eleanor, LOL! yes the foley work in that scene was a bit sloppy…..or slurpy…..

  100. Macha
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    James: Without the Tower of Joy, a blue rose in the Dany scene would have been pure fan service and would not have made sense for the show at all.

    I missed the visions from the book a lot… but I completely agree that the visual medium would remove the subtlety and would have spoiled upcoming events far too greatly. Sadly, just not something that translates well from the written page to the screen.

    Words of wisdom, right here. The way I see it, there are very few ways to properly convey dreams or visions on-screen. Rhaegar at the Trident whispering a woman’s name? Ok, most of us are 99% sure what that name was, but how do you show it on-screen without spelling it out? Same goes for all cases when characters appear in a dream or vision without having their identity revealed for certain. However, I’m sure quite a few will be referenced before certain events happen in the show (see Jojen’s dream about the sea coming to Winterfell).

    Aegon the Conqueror: Would it have been too much to ask Gethin to go on a high protein diet and enter a rigorous weight training regime? Seeing the dedication of actors like Charlize Theron and the kingpin of body changes Christian Bale, makes one wonder why some actors just wing it.

    In my opinion, that would have been a little too much to ask, considering the fact that Renly was not a central character by any means and only set to appear in a few episodes, plus the trait they went for in the show was his charm, and not the similarities he shared with Robert. Personally, I feel that that was a good call to make, because this way the emphasis fell on how the Baratheon brothers differ from each other – think of the steel, iron, copper comparison.

  101. Matt Vukovic
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    I’m a huuuge fan of the show and i haven’t read the books… and i don’t have to, the show is amazing… I don’t care if they changed something from the books, you shouldn’t really compare a book and a TV show…
    And the visions in the House of the Undying are just perfect. They show what she loves: Drogo and her son, and the Iron throne. She had to give that up to go back to her dragons…
    p.s. most of the changes are my favourite scenes anyway… :)

  102. Hunter
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Though it’s bullshit that LF would ever be so reckless, the scene where he and Cersei discuss the definition of power was a great, great Cersei moment, if only to solidify to the audience that ‘dis bitch got teeth, yo.’

    One thing I found absolutely unforgivable was Jamie murdering his ‘coz.’ Kinslaying is a big fucking deal.

  103. Ash
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    couldnt agree more

  104. Alan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    One change that has never worked for me, although this might be nitpicking, and I considered Gethin Anthony awesome in his role, was Renly’s size. In the books he is described as looking almost exactly like a younger Robert, large, strong and robust. Would it have been too much to ask Gethin to go on a high protein diet and enter a rigorous weight training regime? Seeing the dedication of actors like Charlize Theron and the kingpin of body changes Christian Bale, makes one wonder why some actors just wing it. Especially if you consider the publicity such dedication brings.

    I’m sure if it was really the least bit relevant to Renly, he probably would have. Although when a short person bulks up, they don’t add height.

    It was important that Renly was loved; I think they did a good job of showing why Renly was liked by his people.

  105. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Oh so much more please! Feel free to continue to amuse us with these pieces. And really dont feel you have to limit yourself to only a few hundred words. There’s a reason why I suggested you write the thematic essays for season 3.

  106. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Matt Vukovic,

    It’s a bit ridiculous to expect readers not to make comparisons at all to the show.Having read the books ,they can’t help it… Most realize full well the problems that can arise when making an adaptation, and most do not adopt a no-changies-ever attitude..but they get treated as if they do all the time.

    Most do not begrudge the non-reading viewers their enjoyment , or their opinions…though their definition of perfect will not always be the same… But let a reading viewer express their opinion , and they’re likely to get labelled an evil “PURIST”… (Avert! Avert!) .

    Like many others, I’ve been visiting this site since well before the show came to be . ( Though I’ve never been a really frequent poster ) We were all readers back then..so it’s rankled , somewhat ,to face what is often unwarranted scorn and derision , when one comes to express an honestly held opinion , mostly coming from non-readers who may not even know what you’re talking about.

    And now , I’ll apologize to you personally , since I didn’t mean to imply that you were one of those. Your use of the word “perfect” just touched a chord . You would have no way of knowing whether a reader’s opinion that something was less than perfect had any validity or not.. It’s wonderful if something seemed perfect to you ..but you don’t know the import of what was left out…Those that do are mostly not saying that everything needed to be exactly as written , but that it might have been better with certain key details left in. For many , well, for me anyway, these mostly have to do with how it affects the character’s motivations and behavior..not eye colour , build , or even age in many cases. The author and the show runners all say that character is of prime importance ..so when I see a character not being given development ,or too much development too soon , or changing radically..I can’t say it always works. Some do , many don’t – to varying degrees – for me.

  107. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    Ok this goes out to all those who responded to my Renly comment.

    I understand the whole charisma thing, but I believe his charisma wouldve come off even better had he physically imposing. Poets many times use contrast to illuminate certain things. His charisma would’ve come off even better had he been a muscular bloke because it would be so unexpected. The same with his sexuality, generally (and I know this is untrue bias) large strong men are not expected to be homosexual.
    Also I dont have an issue with his height, Mark Addy isn’t that much taller anyway. I have no issue with the way Gethin Anthony portrayed him, or that they showed why people loved him. In fact I was one of those who thought he would make a good king and was saddened by his assasination.
    I simply wish he had bulked up for the role as it would’ve fit in nicely with the books as well as further illuminate his wit and charm and if I remember correctly Renly wasnt known for his martial prowess in the book anyway.

  108. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Wow, this article is succinct and characterizes changes to ASOIAF for GoT that everyone
    here has either complained or raved about. Well done Ours is the Fury. There could
    be a few additions here yet you covered the majority which makes this article a win.
    To summarize IMHO : I) Shae ‘s character / Ned spotting Arya @ Baylor/ Theon’s
    letter and eliminating Tallheart and Chett were clever tweaks and deserving of
    recognition. II) As for streamlining Loras’s sexscapades should have remained
    ambiguous or at least spared us from too much screen time on demonstration of
    it–we get it/ the Spice King as a culmination of Qartheen ruling class was comedic
    as written but could have worked as a strategy / Yoren and ser Rodrik’s death scenes
    were not great but compensated by great counter acting by Arya and Theon.
    III) Biggest WTF moments were Jhogo-Rakharo and Irri’s exit and Cersei-Tommen
    almost suicide scene. I’m done with the sympathy attempt for this b***ch, it ain’t
    gonna happen. The ill conceived actions & timing of Catelyn in respect to freeing
    Jaime. Also the Drogo/Danerys/Child @ HOTU scene was visually stunning
    and made a great point to correlate this with her loss and journey forward.
    IV) I would have included these scenes as clever and well warranted: Ned & Jaime’s
    duel / king Robert and queen Cersei’s candid talk about their relationship. V) I’m
    not sure where to include the over use of Littlefinger and Tywin’s character or Joffrey’s
    sadomasochistic tendencies or the well done portrayal of Jaqen H’ghar as an
    honorable mention but I’d like to toss them in as well. No doubt this article thread
    will be discussed heavily in the upcoming hours or days :D

  109. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Matt Vukovic,

    Ok let me just say that as a non book reader you cant argue on if any of the points were better than what happened in the books simply because you have no idea what they are. Even though I loved the House of the Undying in the series, you can’t say it was perfect because you have no idea what was left out, nor the repurcussions the visions Danny had in that place for future events.
    Yes we know that everything on book doesnt work on screen and many times we are supportive of the changes. But there is no way you can ask us not to compare the two. How will we know if the series is better than the books if we dont do this? How else can we see what little details are truly important to the plot (believe you me if you read the books you would realise how many times little insignificant details became incredibly important afterwards).
    I’m not trying to take you out or anything like that, I just feel like some non book readers can have more respect for the book readers. On this site we go out of our way to make you guys feel welcome and to encourage you to join in on the discussion and share your opinions. Do you have any idea how irratating it is to check every comment you make for potention spoilers and black them out?
    We just expect the same amount of respect, ok? Again no intention of taking you on or out or anything like that, just saying ok ;-)

  110. darquemode
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Well said.

  111. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    You did not like Yoren or Ser Rodrik’s death scenes? They were some of my favourites and much better than their book counterparts. Greatly surprised.

  112. The mighty hodor
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Give me on good reason why ros doesn’t work! I hear alot of complaining about her, but no actual evidence why the rabid fanboys hate her.

    I’m glad tyrion didn’t lose his nose! A scar on his face will work just as well.

  113. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Ours is the Fury,

    I couldn’t agree more about the Tywin / Arya scenes, and they became repetitive..I thought it was a bit self-indulgent( and robbed time from Jaqen / Arya as I said ) and to a reader, they may ultimately have been misleading since Arya and Tywin should never meet again ... there may be a false expectation among the viewers.

    Well struck ser.

  114. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Oh well said Ser, found myself yelling “hear, hear” and air punching at every point you made.

  115. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    But Renly isn’t a warrior per se. I think the series were trying to emphasize that it was his charisma and political skill what drove people to him, rather than his military/battle skills. That’s why I didn’t mind the difference myself. Brienne’s case for example is different because how she looks is integral to who she is.

    Agreed.

  116. The Instrumentalist
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu,

    The only hard thing is that that whole prophecy is the basis for Cercei’s character… her hate for Tyrion and Margery along with her desperation to get rid of them both. Not to mention what it says of her children… it’s at the core of all her decisions, and the realization of this tells us that there is a reason for her madness, for her slowly losing her grip.

    It does seem a little Snow White haha, I never noticed. Still I wouldn’t call it a subplot. It’s a foreshadowing just like any other in this series, and it’ll make the death of Cercei by the valonqar all the sweeter…

  117. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Ok this goes out to all those who responded to my Renly comment.

    I understand the whole charisma thing, but I believe his charisma wouldve come off even better had he physically imposing. Poets many times use contrast to illuminate certain things. His charisma would’ve come off even better had he been a muscular bloke because it would be so unexpected. The same with his sexuality, generally (and I know this is untrue bias) large strong men are not expected to be homosexual.
    Also I dont have an issue with his height, Mark Addy isn’t that much taller anyway. I have no issue with the way Gethin Anthony portrayed him, or that they showed why people loved him. In fact I was one of those who thought he would make a good king and was saddened by his assasination.
    I simply wish he had bulked up for the role as it would’ve fit in nicely with the books as well as further illuminate his wit and charm and if I remember correctly Renly wasnt known for his martial prowess in the book anyway.

    Spoken like a true Targaryeon :D

  118. Ed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Ash:
    Ed,

    Well the blue rose indicates Jon at the wall but I think snow in the throne room is designed to replace that vision but a blue rose after would be good for fans.
    I don’t think it would be that hard to think of it for talented writers like D&D. IT’S IN THE DAMN BOOK. And everyone assumed as a blue rose can’t cost that much it would be in there in some way.
    So what exactly is your point? I can’t put forward my thoughts?

    Actually, no – you can’t. I hereby insist you no longer post!

    LOL! j/k Sorry if I came of a bit brusque!

    I think the Blue Rose represents more than just Jon, and the viewer (non book reader) has NO connection at all to that prophecy so it would be totally wasted.

  119. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Well said indeed.

  120. sunspear
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    Renly didn’t really have any military/battle skills in the books. Sure, he competed in tourneys, but we never actually hear of him winning one.

  121. Alan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Ok this goes out to all those who responded to my Renly comment.

    I understand the whole charisma thing, but I believe his charisma wouldve come off even better had he physically imposing. Poets many times use contrast to illuminate certain things. His charisma would’ve come off even better had he been a muscular bloke because it would be so unexpected.

    No argument. It’s just not necessary. I doubt it was even presented as an option to Anthony. It’s not something anyone would miss.

  122. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    (Takes a bow)

  123. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I missed it which must be saying something.

  124. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Indeed. When people followed him, they were not following a warrior-king or a tourney champion, but a politician under whose rule they thought they would fare well.

  125. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    You did not like Yoren or Ser Rodrik’s death scenes? They were some of my favourites and much better than their book counterparts. Greatly surprised.

    I thought the Yoren attacking the Goldcloaks scene was a bit lacking. I mourned
    his death when I read the books but I got a strong indication of his strategy “on
    the fly” for meeting or attacking an enemy. The GoT scene was over the top suicidal
    and I had no clear sense of who was GoldCloak/ Clegane’s crew or Wall recruits.
    Yoren was full of courage and tried to win before he accepted defeat. GoT Yoren
    acted bravely and a bit foolish as it ensured no time for his recruits to make it to
    safety, there was too much confusion( much more than in the books ) and ironically
    scripted to make it so. So that Arya, Gendry, Lomy and Hotpocket end up with
    Clegane’s men. Arya did at least have that significant scene with Jaqen H’ghar. BTW
    do you recall his cellmates in that scene, recall any names or faces that we’re supposed
    to recognize in later episodes ? It was too much embedded in that scene. As a reader
    I must assume away, as a viewer I would remain expressionless until it’s revealed later
    what all happened there ( or will I ):
    Ser Rodrik was Catelyn’s constant advisor and companion from Winterfell, the Eyrie
    and Robb’s camp, I mourned his loss as much as his son and Yoren. The Winterfell
    scene was effective enough I’d say but misleading of his courage and siege outside
    Winterfell’s gates and the encroachment of you know who. Now that I type this out
    is quite evident that this needed streamlining. This maybe just an emotional response
    to the loss of his character. These 2 and Ned were the 3 system shocks that prepared
    me for GRRM’s style and the telling of his stories ): I got issues I guess.

  126. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    I will start by saying I read all five books after watching both seasons .. so I came in at a different angle.. and the one thing I was looking forward to reading was Tyrion’s confession at the Eyrie ! That was the funniest thing I’d ever seen AND it wasn’t there!
    So I ‘m adding that to my favorite changes.:)
    I loved the scenes with Arya and Tywin .
    Didn’t like Shea and liked her even less now I’ve read the books.
    Haven’t got a problem with book Mel but greatly dislike on screen Mel.
    Adore Stannis , find his on screen persona fantistic. Theon’s scenes very well written and acted. I’m rambling now… Dornish red. :D

  127. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Tír Airgid,

    Thankee, kind Sers , and I return the sentiment..;)

  128. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Claudiu Gherganu,

    I think they cant. Isnt it a big part of why cersei is well cersei?

  129. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    (Takes a bow)

    I curtsy, remember? :D

  130. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Im no ser! I will ignore that shocking use of a low title. And also WildSeed is no knight, adress her as My lady please ;-)

  131. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    No, no, I meant I take a bow. Don’t worry never again will I forget that my Carribean short friend is female.

  132. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    How many million copies have the books sold, worldwide ?

    Almost everyone who’s read the books will be at least checking out the show, if not following it avidly , like the rest of us. ( providing they have the opportunity )

    How many people who were introduced to the show first ,have since become readers of the books ? ( In my own small circle of acquaintance , I must know 10-12. )

    How , then ,would the blue rose have been wasted ?

  133. Sir Gallahad
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Well done — great article.

  134. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Tee-hee. Sorry , um , Your Grace.. But I’m actually no Ser either..however ,I’ll take a well meant honorific with gratitude.

  135. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Yes there were some plot holes there (espescially with Rodrik), but their actual deaths were what I enjoyed so much. Yoren’s bravery and ability to kick ass, Ser Rodrik’s quiet bravery and his stinging comment to Theon before he is decapitated.
    I got the idea that Arya and Gendry could’ve escaped but Gendry chose to fight while Arya saved Jaqen, also it served to eliminae the useless chapter of the four of them surviving in the wild as well as shortening the life of the very irratating Lommy Greenhands (never been a fan, books or otherwise).
    Yes I recognised Rorge and Biter and I think thats why they scripted Rorge’s comment about promising to fuck Arya bloody with her stick, but perhaps that’s just cause I know what’s coming. What I do find strange though is that none of the non book readers asked why Biter never speaks and justs snarls.

  136. Kiftyn
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    I thought it was decided that the show’s version of the HotU was non-prophetic? Like all the scenes were just stuff the warlocks, i.e. The One Warlock Army put in Dany’s head? Illusions and stuff. Dany’s sub conscience would not have known about blue roses.

  137. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Watson:
    darquemode,

    I really liked the early Tywin-Arya scenes, but when he kept saying that he didn’t buy her story but continued to indulge her anyway, it got pretty irksome.

    I agree with you both. The point darquemode makes for point of conflict, was an
    overindulgence of these scenes with Tywin and Arya that may have better use of
    time elsewhere. To the point, Littlefinger ( the teleport ) popped up everywhere
    and in well acted scenes but questionably necessary.

  138. Wheelo
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I liked how Renly was visibly breathing as everyone was mourning him. What a twist!

  139. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    You’re in civilised lands now, you refer to your betters by their proper titles. (Lol love this site). is another one going to come out and say that where I thought he was a he he is actually a she of the female persuasion?

  140. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    No, no, I meant I take a bow. Don’t worry never again will I forget that my Carribean short friend is female.

    Je vous suis très reconnaissant !

  141. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Tee-hee. Sorry , um , Your Grace.. But I’m actually no Ser either..however ,I’lltake a well meant honorific with gratitude.

    My lords, please let there be no malice or battle, you are both just.

  142. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    En ek is veronderstel om daai te verstaan? Is dit Spaans wat jy daar praat, want ek kan dit ongelukkig nie lees nie? Lol two can play that game.

  143. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Mmmmm imagine if it were possible to have a Rennaisance Fair type feast with some of GRRM fan favourite recipes with all the WIC.net commenters attending in appropriate attire according to their user names. Think that could be fun.
    No malice intended Obsidian, a king may jest though kings make poor jesters.

  144. uno0
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    I’m not worrying too much about the blue roses being left out – but really mourning the lack of the peach. It really made that scene poignant, and later on, in a remembering POV.

  145. arglebargle
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    WRONG

  146. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    Yes there were some plot holes there (espescially with Rodrik), but their actual deaths were what I enjoyed so much. Yoren’s bravery and ability to kick ass, Ser Rodrik’s quiet bravery and his stinging comment to Theon before he is decapitated.
    I got the idea that Arya and Gendry could’ve escaped but Gendry chose to fight while Arya saved Jaqen, also it served to eliminae the useless chapter of the four of them surviving in the wild as well as shortening the life of the very irratating Lommy Greenhands (never been a fan, books or otherwise).
    Yes I recognised Rorge and Biter and I think thats why they scripted Rorge’s comment about promising to fuck Arya bloody with her stick, but perhaps that’s just cause I know what’s coming. What I do find strange though is that none of the non book readers asked why Biter never speaks and justs snarls.

    I did not miss Yoren’s badass moments ( including the pre attack moment with see
    Amory Loach), I just wanted my buddy to go out in a bit more style as he fought so
    bravely. I barely made out Rorge or Biter in the cage during that scene (and they
    were barely introduced earlier except by the vulgarity that Rorge uttered). Maybe
    I failed to discern what was happening with that scene much the same way a book
    reader assumes what may have happened without seeing the visual on screen. Whew,
    what did I just say :D ! Biter is just an unhappy fellow and certainly mentally
    disturbed, I wish he did not exist on GoT or ASOIAF.

  147. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    En ek is veronderstel om daai te verstaan? Is dit Spaans wat jy daar praat, want ek kan dit ongelukkig nie lees nie? Lol two can play that game.

    LOL ! I am very grateful is all.

  148. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    The Instrumentalist,
    The thing is it seems like Martin only thought of this when he wrote Cersei’s chapters in AFFC like “Oh wait i didn’t give a reason for why Cersei is the way she is , how about i pull a bullshit story out of my ass and people are just gonna accept it as fact because i wrote it so “, uhh, no , you don’t put a half ass attempt at a backstory and think that all people will think it’s wonderful and great and it was meant to be like that from the beginning, like do you really believe he had this for Cersei since AGOT ? I doubt it . And even if he had it it’s still stupid !

  149. hertolo
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Seeing that list of changes it just struck me that nearly all of them were appropriate for the tv medium. These changes resonate because they make sense for the weekly-with 9 months pause rhythm with callbacks (last week on GoT) and the inability to hide any clue (anything that’s shown has to have a meaning, whereas in the books, you can place much more *erm* background infos).

    This shows a lot in the visions of the House of the Undying and the Blue Rose. Why show that gun if its trigger won’t go off for about 4 seasons yet? Better have it again if needed. The vision tied itself in instead with the throne Dany seeks, the callback to her motivations (familiy?) and the wall itself was there. The blue rose can come later if needed. It’s similar to not having Dontos tell Sansa he’s going to help her, he can do that an appropriate amount of episodes before it happens or goes wrong.

    So yes, I agree with this list and I also agree with Arya/Tywin not being on there since even if the scenes were great, they became increasingly similar. The streamlining of Aryas story instead worked quite well in my mind.

  150. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    The vulgarity would stick in people’s mind and phrasing it twice would make peope remember Rorge for future events. Maybe giving him a nose was a bad idea as being noseless like he was in the books certainly would’ve sticked with people.
    I just commented on the language you were writing in.

  151. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    Mmmmm imagine if it were possible to have a Rennaisance Fair type feast with some of GRRM fan favourite recipes with all the WIC.net commenters attending in appropriate attire according to their user names. Think that could be fun.
    No malice intended Obsidian, a king may jest though kings make poor jesters.

    At the start of S2 many posters did meet for a celebration of sorts with many entrees
    lifted from the descriptions in ACOK and AFOC. I cannot remember exactly but there
    is a website dedicated to the foods of ASOIAF. Renaissance Faires are common here
    in the states. In Napa and Solvang here they usually happen seasonally or particular
    commemoration. California does love it’s pagan holidays however, Moonboy would
    not be an unusual name here.

  152. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    The vulgarity would stick in people’s mind and phrasing it twice would make peope remember Rorge for future events. Maybe giving him a nose was a bad idea as being noseless like he was in the books certainly would’ve sticked with people.
    I just commented on the language you were writing in.

    Yeah, there will be upcoming episodes to deal with his character on GoT. There
    is so much source material, screen writing is not always a fun job.

  153. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Sadly one does not find such oddities here in the untamed south. Something like that would be frowned upon. I’ve met many series fans, but only two fellow book fans to my regret. Im trying to get my girlfriend to start reading the books.
    Long been a dream of mine to attend San Diego Comic Con.

  154. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    The reason why I have such great respect for Brian Cogman.

  155. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    uno0:
    I’m not worrying too much about the blue roses being left out – but really mourning the lack of the peach.It really made that scene poignant, and later on, in a remembering POV.

    You must listen to the parody song ” Black and Yellow “, the eat a peach moment is worth listening for :D

  156. Alan
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Alan,

    I missed it which must be saying something.

    Sorry – I meant to write that if you weren’t expecting him to be big, no one would miss it.

    I doubt anyone who hadn’t read the books said “I don’t know why people loved Renly or why they were following him.” I think that while your comment is totally valid, they accomplished that goal in a different way. And while you’re not wrong that your way would have been effective, I tend to give changes a pass if the goal is effectively accomplished.

  157. KG
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    I agree with everything on the list except Shae. Cannot stand her; she drags every scene she’s in to a screeching halt.

  158. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    I agree and I said as much above ^ :)

  159. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    That song was my ringtone for about a month. My little brother and I love to sing along to it as well as Watching Game of Thrones by Maroon 5.

    Alan,

    No worries all’s forgiven. Yes I’m inclined to agree with you. I guess its just personal preferance, being tall and muscular myself I like it when guys have a warrioresque look to them. There are few characters in a AGOT that are intelligent, charming muscular and I guess thats why the Renly thing bothered me. If you take a look at the large ones like the Cleganes, Ser Meryn Trant, Robert, Hodor etc you’ll understand why I missed a large muscular intelligent Renly. I guess I identified a bit with him because of those three traits.

  160. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone else find that damn countdown timer to be incredibly depressing?

  161. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Does anyone else find that damn countdown timer to be incredibly depressing?

    yes

  162. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    That Maroon 5 Game of Thrones mesh is so effing brilliant! I listened to it/sang/hummed it so much I even caught my non-fan boyfriend singing it away to himself! :)

  163. giselle.g
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but I loved the theon/yara scene where she tells him about when they were kids. shows how much she cares even though they’re ‘ironborn’

  164. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    I knew the spoof Maroon 5 before the actual song! When I first herd it on the radio I was shocked he didn’t sing ” watching game of thrones … ” Ha ha !

  165. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Me too! Had the exact same reaction. And no need to state which one I prefer. So much more fun!

  166. Debbie
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Obsidian, re the blue rose…. They could have added a blue rose and any one who has not read the books would have missed it. The symbol is obscure to say the least in a series that is chock full of them. The BR is mentioned in Ned’s chapters as memories…..not even dialog with other characters. For the BR to make sense for Dany’s scene there would have needed a significant re-working of Ned’s scenes as he was the only character that knows the true significance of the flower. D&D have stated they want to stay away from flashbacks. They would need this for the BR to make sense. Also I don’t think Robert gave her a rose in the crypt….it looked like a feather that he put in her hand ….may be wrong on that. Not sure who mentioned that part about the crypt….(ps not directing any of these comments to Obsidian directly…just lame and don’t know how to edit these comments)

  167. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    My sister hates that song, she despises all thing GOT. But shes a Maroon 5 fan and my brother and I have this tendency to sing Watching Game of Thrones whenever she listens to Payphone.

  168. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    I sang it so much I had non GoT fans singing it too ! They hated me for it … spread the word a little at a time … :D

  169. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    Sadly one does not find such oddities here in the untamed south. Something like that would be frowned upon. I’ve met many series fans, but only two fellow book fans to my regret. Im trying to get my girlfriend to start reading the books.Long been a dream of mine to attend San Diego Comic Con.

    Try reading a few pages to her, especially spoken lines from Danerys and Drogo
    or (yuck) Daario or Tyrion’s many word plays. Loan her a book and warn her
    that she must immerse herself in the story so that it takes her on the journey.
    She won’t be disappointed and would give you both something outside of work
    or studies or….. to share a talk about. A couple cannot always be of the same mind
    or same passion yet it is possible to share a bit of the experience. Too bad SA doesn’t
    commemorate Renaissance Faires, I know some are not always correlated to the
    country you live in but they are historically or culturally related and fun. In Jacmel
    I remember Carnivale and even Bastille commemorations. In the states with so
    many cultures the choices are endless. European and Latin festivals dominate in
    California but there are smaller German, Asian, Swedish,Indian/Pakastani/Bangla, Ethiopian, Japanese festivals , Bhuddist as well. Many regions like the NE are
    primarily Germanic and produce that type at some frequency too. Most folk here
    tend to assimilate into more western lifestyles but these events awaken their pride
    in their ancestry. It’s very fun and of great interest to observe or be invited in to be
    part of the ceremonies. last year I attended an Indian Davaali festival, it was like
    a scene from Qarthe.

  170. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Debbie,

    no you are absolutely correct, just rewatched the crypt scene, Robert puts a feather in her hand not a rose.

  171. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    That Maroon 5 Game of Thrones mesh is so effing brilliant! I listened to it/sang/hummed it so much I even caught my non-fan boyfriend singing it away to himself! :)

    I know it by heart!

  172. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Debbie,

    I don’t think you’d need to resort to flashbacks for the BR to make sense. Given its unnatural colour and that it wouldn’t normally grow alone on a frozen wall, it would have stuck out enough to be noticeable for those paying close attention, imo. All you need to do then is have someone mention in the future how it was Lyanna’s favourite flower or sth like that.

  173. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Debbie:
    Obsidian,

    Obsidian, re the blue rose…. They could have added a blue rose and any one who has not read the books would have missed it.The symbol is obscure to say the least in a series that is chock full of them.The BR is mentioned in Ned’s chapters as memories…..not even dialog with other characters.For the BR to make sense for Dany’s scene there would have neededa significant re-working of Ned’s scenes as he was the only character that knows the true significance of the flower.D&D have stated they want to stay away from flashbacks. They would need this for the BR to make sense.Also I don’t think Robert gave her a rose in the crypt….it looked like a feather that he put in her hand ….may be wrong on that.

    I hope Benioff and Weiss allow for a flashback or 2 in upcoming seasons because
    streamlining is not gonna work for everything.

  174. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Same here. What’s worse, I made the effort to learn it. *blushes*

  175. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: I know it by heart!

    WildSeed,

    WildSeed,
    You rock! :D
    I also love “Rains ” tho … I’m working on that :D

  176. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Its very sad what is happening in this country because of the fuck up that was Apartheid. The only history that is taught anymore is that of the freedom fighters during the opressive years. The other stuff is forgotten. The rsult is that the white Afrikaner forgets that way down in his ancestral line he was Dutch or Danish, French or ENglish. In becoming a Rainbow Nation sadly many are starting to lose their identity and it goes through all the different cultures. My mother teaches at a predominantly black school. It’s sad that the education in their native languages that the Freedom Fighters fought so hard for isn’t happening anyway. Most black parents try to send their kids to english schools which means many of them cannot properly speak their own respective langauge or are unable to read and write in it.
    The same has happened with Afrikaners, I guess we just think we’re African and we came from here.
    I myself am from German descent, but I can only speak a little German, certainly not enough to get by, although my dad is close to fluent. So yeah medieval influences, festivals, etc are non existent here. I know of one medieval themed restaurant but that’s about as far as it goes. That and the Castle in Cape Town. So I envy the Americans very much in that aspect.
    Haha well I’m trying to convince her to watch the show first, and then we’ll see from there. Unfrotunately GRRM is not known for his romantic writing or happy endings, so that angle is out.

  177. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    I honestly don’t believe they are going into visions, dreams, prophecies , foreshadowing any of that ilk …. have they so far?

  178. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Could you at least get her into the TV show? I couldn’t get my boyfriend to read the books but he likes the show well enough. (Though sometimes he pesters me so much with questions while watching that I have decided to always watch it on my own first)

    Oops… I see you already answered that.

    Entice her with some Jaqen clips! I can’t think of any woman who wouldn’t want to see more… haha!

  179. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    YvyB:
    Tír Airgid,

    I sang it so much I had non GoT fans singing it too ! They hated me for it … spread the word a little at a time … :D

    I’m sure my neighbor’s heard me sing it loud over iTunes. Spread the love one
    note at a time.

  180. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Rains by the Nationals is a pain in the ass to sing along to, that guy can sing unnaturally low. Although it is an awesome song!

  181. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Ah I love it tho… I so thought it was the hound after the episode … ( secretly I still imagine it is :) )

  182. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    I will certainly try! Whether she will like it is anyone’s guess.
    I do the same with my book hating brother and my too busy to read father. That way I can enjoy the episode in absolute peace. The worst was in season 1 episode 10 when my dad thought Theon was Ned’s bastard, I was like “groan”!

  183. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Hahaha I thought the same too, in fact I was trying to figure out why the Hound would sing the Lannister song after he had just fled.

  184. Debbie
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Mentioning that blue roses are Lyanna’s favorite flowers still means nothing without Ned’s POV to give it any significance. And all the people who may have known this little fact are dead by the end of S1. But I’m not saying anymore because we a treading spolier territory for non-book readers

  185. Brother John
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Really fascinating opinions all round. Personally a lot of the changes in Season 2 left me feeling fairly indifferent. My main problem was the pacing, at times it all felt rushed and at others it was painfully slow.

    Don’t get me wrong there was a lot to enjoy such as Arya/Tywin. Bronn getting the the gold cloaks and Tywin totally burning Littlefinger were all highlights and there was some necessary trimming and moving around which was clever and effective.

    However the whole story North of The Wall left me cold (pun intended… obviously)

    For a start it now seems that Sam, Grenn and Dolorous Ed are the only members of the Night’s watch, then there’s the fact that they butchered Jon and the Halfhand’s story in order to give more time to the Ygritte story line which could and should have been saved for Season 3 and I’m also a little confused about the ending (awesome though it was) and how that will play into the Prologue/Sam’s POV flashbacks.

    However I have to congratulate all the actors for stepping it up yet another gear, nothing but praise in that department.

  186. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    I watched every episode at least 4 times… me first , then with my teenage son, ( only together time ) then with my 10 year old ( missing out the sex scenes) then with my partner … and maybe a couple more times after :) Never have I tried to get them to read the books. Tho I think the 10 year old will one day, my partner doesn’t read.

  187. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    I love that one too. Though I must say the first time I heard it, the whole RW connotation hit me like a punch in the stomach. Hit me completely by surprise and by the end I was crying. Got over that, and now I do sing it too every time it comes in my player. :) But it’s such a beautiful song and voice! Love the Nick Cave vibe

  188. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    You allowed your ten yearl old to watch Stannis chopping a guys head in half and the Hound chopping an entire man in half?

  189. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    Debbie,

    I don’t know. I only read the books after watching season 1, but since I was so impatient, I skipped the first one (left it for the end, odd I know) and started with a Clash of Kings. The blue rose seemed so peculiar that it stuck out for me, and when a friend mentioned to me it was Lyanna’s flower I immediately made the connection

    Apologies for not blocking the other commentary. Can anyone do it for me if it’s considered too spoilery? Cant edit it anymore :(

  190. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    It reminds me of LotR when Pippen is made to sing as the battle goes on behind… then I noticed in previews of The Hobbit the Dwarfs signing a similar style song and recently snow white movie again dwarfs … but I still Love ” Rains ” the best ;)

  191. Ours is the Fury
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    I do find it surprising that so many people expected the HOTU sequence to be just like the book. I thought it was obvious that there was no way they’d do it that way, and so I was pretty open to a TV interpretation. They couldn’t use the Rhaegar and Elia section, because no one will know who the heck they are. They’d have to write in Dany basically narrating the scene. “Look, it’s my dead brother that Robert killed, his wife Elia and their baby Aegon!” and so on. And then, “Hey it’s that house in Braavos that I lived in and was happy for a while.”
    The vision of the naked woman being raped and torn into by four men? I think we’ve had enough of that.
    And of course they can’t use the feast o’ death and king with a wolf head for the obviousness.
    The blue rose requires another lengthy explanation.
    I think they could have used the appearance of King Aerys, but it didn’t serve much purpose, and they do dislike flashbacks.
    And the vision of ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, Mother!” is a pretty big spoiler for A Storm of Swords as well.
    I had thought that perhaps they could alter the HOTU by having Viserys appear and hand over the prophecies, since he is familiar to the audience. But I guess not. Prophecies can be fun but they also hamstring the series which has to be more flexible.
    As for the name, House of the Undying, being fitting at all for the show’s version- well, a dead guy and a never-lived baby appearing in it does sort of legitimize its name. :)

  192. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Misty Mountains Cold gets my vote, purely because I’ve been wondering what it actually sounds like since I was 8 years old. yes it appears in the Hobbit novel.

  193. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    YvyB,

    You allowed your ten yearl old to watch Stannis chopping a guys head in half and the Hound chopping an entire man in half?

    sex AND violence …. I ment I edit. One episode , I think it was shadow baby I just told him what happened briefly…

  194. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    YvyB,

    Misty Mountains Cold gets my vote, purely because I’ve been wondering what it actually sounds like since I was 8 years old. yes it appears in the Hobbit novel.

    Ah I know I’m going to love those movies as much as LoTR… it’s been a long time waiting … read the books at least 20 years ago :\

  195. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Ours makes a strong argument I must admit. Never really seen why the Blue Rose debate got so far. I mean I literally read the HOTU chapter in ACOK three days ago and I had to think about the whole Blue Rose thing for a while before it came back to me.

  196. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    The Misty Mountain is SO BEAUTIFUL! Still hoping we’ll get to hear a few more verses in the screen version.

  197. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Re the BR: I suppose different things stick out to different people. I always expected at least that one to make it because I thought it would have been the easiest one, and less risky story-wise, to include.

  198. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    I’m thinking we’ll get the entire version. Plus a full mp3 release. Was very dissapointed when I could not find a full one when the trailer was first released.

  199. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    I suppose. The Wolfhead King definetly stood out and made me want to cry because it was quite obvious what it pointed towards. Again what the hell is GRRRM’s problem when it comes to competent kings?

  200. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Well this has been fun, but even kings must sleep. 3 o clock on a weeknight is where I draw the line. Gnite all!

  201. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:

    2 o clock here … but you’re right :) na night

  202. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    Its very sad what is happening in this country because of the fuck up that was Apartheid. The only history that is taught anymore is that of the freedom fighters during the opressive years. The other stuff is forgotten. The rsult is that the white Afrikaner forgets that way down in his ancestral line he was Dutch or Danish, French or ENglish. In becoming a Rainbow Nation sadly many are starting to lose their identity and it goes through all the different cultures. My mother teaches at a predominantly black school. It’s sad that the education in their native languages that the Freedom Fighters fought so hard for isn’t happening anyway. Most black parents try to send their kids to english schools which means many of them cannot properly speak their own respective langauge or are unable to read and write in it.
    The same has happened with Afrikaners, I guess we just think we’re African and we came from here.
    I myself am from German descent, but I can only speak a little German, certainly not enough to get by, although my dad is close to fluent. So yeah medieval influences, festivals, etc are non existent here. I know of one medieval themed restaurant but that’s about as far as it goes. That and the Castle in Cape Town. So I envy the Americans very much in that aspect.
    Haha well I’m trying to convince her to watch the show first, and then we’ll see from there. Unfrotunately GRRM is not known for his romantic writing or happy endings, so that angle is out.

    the USA has a collective short term memory of racial/cultural differences often
    demonstrated in extreme denial and/or oversensitive political correction. For
    those that sit in a seat of privilege it’s a tough decision in metering out or mandating
    change. Most nations rate similar or same as the rulers or privileged few converse
    regularly where these boundaries begin or end. So no where gets it right or an A+
    because the process is slow and the populace not fully understanding or embracing
    the need for change. There may not be a territory or nation wide effort to embrace
    your national heritage just yet because there is not a well described effort to embrace
    your ancestry without the race politics unnecessarily attached to it and the embarrass-
    ment/hurt/fear/etc as well. I am forever baffled as a citizen of the world with a typical
    ancestry displaying mixed genetic profile why we do not embrace what science has
    already proved. There is no such thing as a pure race or genetic superiority. A danger
    to one is a danger to all. We are not to be sure a colorblind world so in the meantime
    learn as much as why we’re similar and respect our differences ( which is mainly
    class and politics ). When you travel the globe soon, spend a week or 2 in the Nederlands
    or Germany. You’ll experience that learning Dutch/German is needed for other reasons
    than being a South African. I spent a month collectively in Germany, Austria and the
    Nederlands in 2004. I have family there ( and was put to chores) but it was great
    appreciating the traditions and culture as the locals do and not as a tourist. I never
    appreciated French Creole until I spent time with my cousin ( who moved there) in
    France (near Avignon ), suddenly the world was much smaller.

  203. The Young Wolf
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    WildSeed,

    Mmmmm imagine if it were possible to have a Rennaisance Fair type feast with some of GRRM fan favourite recipes with all the WIC.net commenters attending in appropriate attire according to their user names. Think that could be fun.
    No malice intended Obsidian, a king may jest though kings make poor jesters.

    I’m gonna have to dye my husky’s fur.

  204. John
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    I agree with most of this, but Shae was arguably the single worst change from the book. I’m not sure the writing is the problem. With a better actress, it might well have worked. The problem was the casting, as the actress who plays Shae has zero range and brings everything to a screeching halt every time she tries to do anything beyond the most basic dialogue (“HE’S THREE THOUSAND MILES AWAY!!!!!!!!!”). She is a terrible actress. It’s too bad. I liked the book version of Shae.I was sad when Tyrion killed her, but now I’m actively hoping they move her death to earlier.

  205. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    The Young Wolf: I’m gonna have to dye my husky’s fur.

    As I’m a tiny blonde …. does that make me Tyrion !

  206. YvyB
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    John:
    I agree with most of this, but Shae was arguably the single worst change from the book. I’m not sure the writing is the problem. With a better actress, it might well have worked. The problem was the casting, as the actress who plays Shae has zero range and brings everything to a screeching halt every time she tries to do anything beyond the most basic dialogue (“HE’S THREE THOUSAND MILES AWAY!!!!!!!!!”). She is a terrible actress. It’s too bad. I liked the book version of Shae.I was sad when Tyrion killed her, but now I’m actively hoping they move her death to earlier.

    Ha Ha I absolutely agree :)

  207. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Brother John:
    Really fascinating opinions all round. Personally a lotof the changes in Season 2 left me feeling fairly indifferent. My main problem was the pacing, at times it all felt rushed and at others it was painfully slow.

    Don’t get me wrong there was a lot to enjoy such as Arya/Tywin. Bronn getting the the gold cloaks andTywin totally burning Littlefinger were all highlights and there was some necessary trimming and moving around which was clever and effective.

    However the whole story North of The Wall left me cold (pun intended… obviously)

    For a start it now seems thatSam, Grenn and Dolorous Ed are the only members of the Night’s watch, then there’s the fact that they butchered Jon and the Halfhand’s story in order to give more time to the Ygritte story line which could and should have been saved for Season 3 and I’m also a little confused about the ending (awesome though it was) and how that will play into the Prologue/Sam’s POV flashbacks.

    However I have to congratulate all the actors for stepping it up yet another gear, nothing but praise in that department.

    Well stated and a pandora’s box to open discussion. Much has been said in earlier S2
    episode threads but I’m in agreement and no doubt will be discussed here some more.

  208. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    WiC I’m not sure why my posting was repeated above 2x . I did not cause that , right?

  209. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Debbie,

    Yes, those who have not read the books would have probably missed the Blue Rose or not have paid much attention ..for now. As with the books, it’s nice when they just plant something for later reference. ..You’re right, I think Robert places a feather on Lyanna’s statue (??..the bird who had flown ?? your guess is as good as mine..)..but her statue is already adorned with blue roses, I believe.. And just because the writers can plant a hint later , doesn’t mean it would be wrong to plant one now.

    You’re defending one change by implying they couldn’t make another …why would they have to go back and rework Ned’s scenes? He was certainly not the only person who knew about Lyanna’s fondness for blue roses. Cat must know , eg ..even any of the Stark kids might have heard it mentioned as her favourite flower , just in passing Outside of the Starks , anyone who was at the tourney at Harrenhall would associate Lyanna with blue roses . Heck, even Cersei probably would ,since those events led to her miserable marriage . In the books, the Reeds tell Bran about the Harrenhall tourney and Barristan relates something of it to Dany . Benjen would know , if he appears . Howland Reed would know if he appears. Littlefinger and Varys probably know about the events at the tourney There are all sorts of possibilities.

    Someone upthread argued that the warlocks wove the show images out of what was already in Dany’s mind< so the blue rose would make no sense.. That doesn't make sense to me… Why the snow in the throne room , then ?..Besides which , Dany has already had prophetic dreams / visions /ideas ( Walking into the scalding bath, the business with the dragon eggs and the brazier , intuiting how the magic would work at Drogo's pyre. )

    So, no..there was no great and necessary reason to leave it out. They just decided to leave it out. Basta.

    Which is fine , they certainly can bring it in at a later date… I just think it would have been better to include it.

    I don’t agree that it would have required an explanation.

  210. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    YvyB: 2 o clock here … but you’re right :) na night

    It’s 6:21 pm PST San Francisco Bay Area :D !

  211. Nights King
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Adaptations are tough….

    The House of the Undying is probably the most important chapter in the books for people trying to predict where the story is going to go. I personally think one of the visions foreshadows the last chapter in the books (or at least the final conflict). That said, it probably wouldn’t work as well on screen.

    Still, overall I don’t think I was a big fan of the changes to Dany’s story line this season, and I’ve generally noted that they seem to be moving further away from certain aspects of the books (probably in the name of streamlining, but still) in favor of making time to give minor characters more substance. It works sometimes (Yoren) and not others (Ros, IMHO).

    My biggest gripe is how they handled The Half-hand’s arc with Jon, side-lining the one’s sacrifice, and making the other’s future actions less subtle/conflicted.

  212. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Brother John:
    Really fascinating opinions all round. Personally a lotof the changes in Season 2 left me feeling fairly indifferent. My main problem was the pacing, at times it all felt rushed and at others it was painfully slow.

    Don’t get me wrong there was a lot to enjoy such as Arya/Tywin. Bronn getting the the gold cloaks andTywin totally burning Littlefinger were all highlights and there was some necessary trimming and moving around which was clever and effective.

    However the whole story North of The Wall left me cold (pun intended… obviously)

    For a start it now seems thatSam, Grenn and Dolorous Ed are the only members of the Night’s watch, then there’s the fact that they butchered Jon and the Halfhand’s story in order to give more time to the Ygritte story line which could and should have been saved for Season 3 and I’m also a little confused about the ending (awesome though it was) and how that will play into the Prologue/Sam’s POV flashbacks.

    However I have to congratulate all the actors for stepping it up yet another gear, nothing but praise in that department.

    Really well stated and much discussed during S2 Episode reviews.As in retrospect,
    these topics will likely be discussed again this time with better insight. Ours is the
    Fury posted a meaty thread here that most of us will need to chew on for a while.

  213. Amy S.
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Viv,

    Agreed! Well acted and enriched that section of the storyline tremendously.

    “All men can die.”

  214. WildSeed
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    I do find it surprising that so many people expected the HOTU sequence to be just like the book. I thought it was obvious that there was no way they’d do it that way, and so I was pretty open to a TV interpretation. They couldn’t use the Rhaegar and Elia section, because no one will know who the heck they are. They’d have to write in Dany basically narrating the scene. “Look, it’s my dead brother that Robert killed, his wife Elia and their baby Aegon!” and so on. And then, “Hey it’s that house in Braavos that I lived in and was happy for a while.”
    The vision of the naked woman being raped and torn into by four men? I think we’ve had enough of that.
    And of course they can’t use the feast o’ death and king with a wolf head for the obviousness.
    The blue rose requires another lengthy explanation.
    I think they could have used the appearance of King Aerys, but it didn’t serve much purpose, and they do dislike flashbacks.
    And the vision of ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, Mother!” is a pretty big spoiler for A Storm of Swords as well.I had thought that perhaps they could alter the HOTU by having Viserys appear and hand over the prophecies, since he is familiar to the audience. But I guess not. Prophecies can be fun but they also hamstring the series which has to be more flexible.
    As for the name, House of the Undying, being fitting at all for the show’s version- well, a dead guy and a never-lived baby appearing in it does sort of legitimize its name. :)

    Yes on all points. I entertained the perspective of Danerys the queen/ wife/mother
    her tragedies and future journey.The theory fits well, it works well for a streamlined
    version and summarises Danerys’s GoT storyline. It was also visually stunning to
    experience and a goodbye from the heart throb Jason Momoa.

  215. Watson
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Just as a technical point on the blue rose. If you watch the wall section of the HOTU, it’s pretty obvious that they just green screened Emilia into footage shot for season one. So yes, it would have been a lot of work to include a blue rose.

    Anyway, I don’t really see the point. Book experts already know the connection, show watchers wouldn’t make the connection, so who, exactly, would be served by its inclusion? I’d be happy for it to reappear around the time that Lyanna’s legacy becomes relevant to the story, which is probably a number of seasons away. So too with baby Aegon.

  216. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    I agree with most of these changes…
    Although I loved the interplay between the characters in the Arya / Tywin scenes , I’m glad they’re not included here. I felt that they robbedtime from the Arya / Jaqen interplayand consequently was there was of Arya / Jaqen was mediocre writing at best.

    Tom made a great Jaqen ..but he wasn’t given much to sink his teeth into , and Tywin will have many more chances to shine.

    A woman agrees that there could have been more Arya and Jaqen scenes, but felt that the writing was mostly reflective of their book interactions (having just read much of that again), so can’t fault the writing much.

  217. BrianAu
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Tywin Aria scenes. They not only rocked but were believable. Tywin new what he was doing and enjoyed having someone bright and intelligent to serve him. What has not been discussed is how Tywin lied to Arya about going North to fight Rob just to turn around and fight at Kings Landing. Did he know Arya was Ned’s daughter? I do not think so but he clearly knew she was of nobility and from the north. He enjoyed their conversations and in the end tried to use her to possibly deceive the enemy of his true intentions. I also loved these scenes since we got so much more insight into Tywin than is in the books. It was fascinating to learn more about him and his kids through his eyes. Also loved how they brought in history of the Targaryens and dragons. Her decisions on the three people to kill were so much better done in the TV show than the book too. Really people did not get chills when Arya said “Anyone can be killed.”? Or when Tywin said she was too smart for her own good?

    As for the comments on the House of the Undying. Sorry die hard book friends who thought this was too different than the book. Need to relax. Martin’s books are extremely good but they are not the greatest FF of all time (books four and five ended any possibility of this being the best ever fantasy series for me). I liked the changes here too.

    Worst changes were above the Wall. Agree with all on every point. Liked Ygritte but the Halfhand story was really done poorly. Jon Snow needs to be able to show something different than the EMO face all the time too. Does he seem like he can actually lead nightwatch someday? Nope.

  218. Claudiu Gherganu
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    BrianAu:
    Tywin Aria scenes.They not only rocked but were believable.Tywin new what he was doing and enjoyed having someone bright and intelligent to serve him.What has not been discussed is how Tywin lied to Arya about going North to fight Rob just to turn around and fight at Kings Landing. Did he know Arya was Ned’s daughter? I do not think so but he clearly knew she was of nobility and from the north.He enjoyed their conversations and in the end tried to use her to possibly deceive the enemy of his true intentions.I also loved these scenes since we got so much more insight into Tywin than is in the books.It was fascinating to learn more about him and his kids through his eyes.Also loved how they brought in history of the Targaryens and dragons.Her decisions on the three people to kill were so much better done in the TV show than the book too.Really people did not get chills when Arya said “Anyone can be killed.”? Or when Tywin said she was too smart for her own good?

    As for the comments on the House of the Undying.Sorry die hard book friends who thought this was too different than the book. Need to relax. Martin’s books are extremely good but they are not the greatest FF of all time (books four and five ended any possibility of this being the best ever fantasy series for me).I liked the changes here too.

    Worst changes were above the Wall. Agree with all on every point. Liked Ygritte but the Halfhand story was really done poorly.Jon Snow needs to be able to show something different than the EMO face all the time too.Does he seem like he can actually lead nightwatch someday?Nope.

    I agree . Why does people believe this series is the Holy Grail ? Now granted it’s better than a lot of other fantasy series out there but it has plenty of flaws especially in the last two books .

  219. Caleb Floyd
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    am i the only one upset about arya and the way she escaped from harrenhal. Would have been better to see her kill the man at the gate herself by using the coin. Really dissapointed with the way aryas arc has been “fast-tracked” is what i would say and missing on big moments for her to grow as a character and become more “beast” is the way me and my friends would put it. But mainly just taking care of business and not being afraid to get her hands dirty. Aside from that the show is amazing love the books love the show. Some of the changes have been awesome as noted its all great stuff just mad we didnt get to see arya kill the guy at the gate considering i felt that was the best part of aCoK

  220. Obsidian
    Posted August 6, 2012 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I can’t agree .What there was of Jaqen / Arya’s interaction was generally reflective of the way just those parts played out in the books. And I’m not a fan of lines being thrown in out of context ( ” The Gods are not mocked” ) and letting that serve for faithfulness. I felt so much of the teaching aspect ( J to A) of their relationship was just not there. And I didn’t like that parts were directly played for laughs.. they would have been amusing anyway..and finally, I thought their final exchange was somewhat misleading from both characters’ perspectives. ( She could offer her list of names to the Red God ? …What the ? to that..)

    Overall, it could have been so much more, but we had to have more and more Tywin instead ( not to mention LF ). As I said TYwin / Arya was good acting and I didn’t mind her being his cup bearer in the interests of streamlining , but all that repetition certainly didn’t advance Arya’s growth as a character. Once would have been enough..or once and her being present to overhear a thing or two.. This didn’t replace the lessons learned from Jaqen , and with less of one, we could have had more of the other.

  221. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I can’t agree .What there was of Jaqen / Arya’s interaction was generally reflective of the way just those parts played out in the books. And I’m not a fan of lines being thrown in out of context ( ” The Gods are not mocked” ) and letting that serve for faithfulness. I felt so much of the teaching aspect ( J to A) of their relationship was just not there. And I didn’t like thatparts were directly played for laughs.. they would have been amusing anyway..and finally, I thought their final exchange was somewhat misleading from both characters’ perspectives. ( She could offer her list of names to the Red God ? …What the ? to that..)

    Overall, it could have been so much more, but we had to have more and more Tywin instead ( not to mention LF ). As I said TYwin / Arya was good acting and I didn’t mind her being his cup bearer in the interests of streamlining , but all that repetition certainly didn’t advance Arya’s growth as a character. Once would have been enough..or once and her being present to overhear a thing or two.. This didn’t replace the lessons learned from Jaqen , and with less of one, we could have had more of the other.

    It appears you have misunderstood a woman’s meaning. The Arya/Jaqen scenes were appreciated and it would have been great to have seen more! It did seem that Arya/Tywin was great but overdone, repeated ad nauseum and yes, took time away from Arya/Jaqen showing a deeper relationship AND from showing much of Arya’s personal hardships that would mold her character. But the final meeting of Arya/Jaqen was meant to show (IMO) that he was trying to tell her that she could follow the path of the assassin and kill all those on her list and “offer those up” to the Red god, thereby explaining to her that her path would be an honorable or even spiritual pursuit if followed in the manner of his training. We disagree on some aspects, but agree that there should have been MORE JAQEN/Arya scenes!

  222. beewulf
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    I liked the changes to Tywin’s and Jorah Mormont’s characters. Tywin was a lot more sympathetic because of the scenes with Arya. I really had trouble liking him in the books.

    Also, Jorah Mormont seems like a real advisor to Dany. There are great lines between the two of them – especially the scene in Qarth where he tries to talk her out of taking Xaro’s offer. The whole speech about how a person who can and should rule rarely comes along – that was a fantastic. The writers sort of overdid the whole “we know he’s in love with Dany” thing in Qarth, but he loves her because he thinks she can really rule, not because she is beautiful and looks like the wife who dumped him.

  223. Alan
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Caleb Floyd:
    am i the only one upset about arya and the way she escaped from harrenhal. Would have been better to see her kill the man at the gate herself by using the coin. Really dissapointed with the way aryas arc has been “fast-tracked” is what i would say and missing on big moments for her to grow as a character and become more “beast” is the way me and my friends would put it. But mainly just taking care of business and not being afraid to get her hands dirty. Aside from that the show is amazing love the books love the show. Some of the changes have been awesome as noted its all great stuff just mad we didnt get to see arya kill the guy at the gate considering i felt that was the best part of aCoK

    I don’t think Arya’s story has been fast tracked. I think it’s been slowed down. Arya has yet to intentionally kill someone herself in the show, and I think they wanted to space that stage out from her intentionally having someone kill someone for her.

    That’s my guess.

    I also think you and the show’s creators probably see Arya’s arc a bit differently. I don’t think they view Arya’s path in as positive a light as you do. I don’t know but I’d guess there will be less a feeling of beating and more of a mixed reaction to a child committing multiple murders, the most recent simply because she is asked.

  224. Lord Noga
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 2:31 am | Permalink

    Twyin and Arya seens were amazing. Quarth changes as a whole were better than the book, except for HotU. But there were too many spoilers that wouldnt of been a good ideas for the show to reveal. The whole Quarth storyline was a bit slow and kinda boring in the book. A huge change that i missed but it worked out well in the show was the whole Reek switcheroo. I loved it in the book but found it kind of confusin and it would of been kinds hard to translate to the show. Plus they would of had to bring in the whole Hornwood scenario and that would of taken a lot of time plus u would need too add more characters. Now when we meet Ramsay in season 3 he can still do his fun times with Lady Donella Hornwood, or it can just be mentioned. As far as Reek, i think we will see theon as reek and probably Ramsay , Roose ir one of the Dreadfort men will give his s background on who Reek was. Reek reek, it rhymes with freak. Reek reek, we are all a bunch of geeks. (but who cares?!)

  225. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    :D So we’re almost of like minds..Indeed , you may have taken his name , but I’ve been fooling around with Jaqen for a long time, too… and enjoying getting to know him better…;) ( ah well , mistresses expect to share..)

    I agree on what that final scene was meant to show..but I think that’s a perversion of Jaqen’s character , of the usual way the FM operate ,and in a way, of Arya’s character too.. What she really wants to learn is , how to change her face. I think more than she wants to learn to kill as he kills . She already knows she can kill , and she knows practicing her needlework is building finesse.. I don’t think the Jaqen I know from the books would suggest a closer assosciation with the Red God.. he’s just extricated her from a dangerous relationship with Him . Neither Jaqen nor the FM, generally, would think it good for a person entering their training to kill out of personal motives, hence the practice of passing on a contract on someone they know But the most important thing at their parting was left out entirely. He tells her to use the coin ” If you would find me again.” It’s personal. When she uses it she’s alone,has now really lost everyone except Jon and Sansa who are beyond her reach ,for whatever reason.. She’s vulnerable, and death and mayhem are all around. She’s looking for her friend , who’s helped her and shown care for her before .… I think that’s an important difference right now , and could continue to be important in the future.

  226. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:04 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Oops ! me again..are you still speaking to me ? :D ( I haven’t seen him for a couple of months , now..)

    I meant to add, had Jaqen been given the attention he deserves , he would already have given Arya valuable lessons , useful in surviving in dangerous times , and life in general…Even if she never becomes a FM … Think about what you set out to do .How to listen. How to move silently. take responsibility ( at least to yourself ) for your actions .., “A girl should be bloody too , this is her work. “

  227. Hertolo
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Regarding the House of the Undying and its prophecies, just as f.e. the Tullys have been postponed to season 3 where they have a big (!) impact on the story, in tv, things should only be introduced when they “matter” for the story arc. Actio-Reactio. Also, the Reek Switcheroo (TV speculation) seems to have been brought into season 3 with Ramsay making Theon believe in something apparently. That works in that it didn’t take screen time away in season 2 for a pay-off in a later season.

    This is why I can easily see them introduce a House of the Undying in Meereen or something/someone else delivering these prophecies on Rhaegar et al. when they have a pay-off that is closer to the present than where we are at the moment.

  228. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Hmmm need to dye my hair silver as well as find a realistic suit of plate armour….oh yes and a life size rideable black dragon, where do you suppose one would find these things?

  229. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    John,

    I loved Shae! Didnt care for her much in the first season but in the second season she was absolutely fantastic! Loved her spunk and her acting. Her final scene brought tears to my eyes, especially because I know what’s coming she is much better written than she was in the books. Fifty grades of Shae (a guide to 50 of Westeros’ finest Brothels) certainly seems like a page turner.

  230. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Hmmm wonder if Trial by COmbat applies to ladies as well? Because we might just see swords being drawn here soon.

  231. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Holy hell, it’s snowing like crazy here! Only the second time in my life that I have seen snow (not counting the snow capped mountains in the Cape every winter) The first time was six years back. But it’s been snowing on and off for the last six hours or so.

  232. YvyB
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Holy hell, it’s snowing like crazy here! Only the second time in my life that I have seen snow (not counting the snow capped mountains in the Cape every winter) The first time was six years back. But it’s been snowing on and off for the last six hours or so.

    Winter is coming….

  233. YvyB
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    YvyB,

    Hmmm need to dye my hair silver as well as find a realistic suit of plate armour….oh yes and a life size rideable black dragon, where do you suppose one would find these things?

    I have one in my dungeon if you want to borrow him … he’s just hanging around , bit bored really… :D

  234. Matt Vukovic
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror
    Obsidian

    Ok, i didn’t say i don’t respect the book readers. i just say that you don’t have to criticise the show so much, it’s great the way it is. It will never be 100% like the books. And this way it is interesting for you guys too, watching something new, and that’s the whole idea i think.
    p.s. my friend(a book reader) told me that the other Danary’s visions are too spoilerish… so i can live without them.. :)

  235. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Hahaha which is weird when you live in a country that’s a mixture between Dorne and High Garden.
    Is he stunted like the small dragon of the latter Targeryens? Cause I need a Black Dread that can engulf entire villages in one blast. Also needs to be house trained.

  236. YvyB
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Ah you don’t know the size of my dungeon :D

  237. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Matt Vukovic,

    Agreed on that point, which is why I like the HOTU the way it is. I say the same to this show that I say to the Springboks after a bad game “I love this series more than any other on earth, I support it and advertise, which is the reason why I reserve the right to critizise it mercilessly.”
    That being said I do believe it is the best damn thing on tv.
    We arent critisizing the changes just because they are changes, some of these have enormous repurcussions. For instance do you have any idea why Jon killed the Halfhand without asking someone whose read the books? If you have any idea where he is headed storywise you would understand why we complain about the stumbling idiot that gets his brothers killed.
    If its a better change we absolutely love it! Like the duel between Ned and Jaime wasn’t in the books, but is seriously one of my favourite moments of season 1.

  238. Matt Vukovic
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    I think that Jon killed Halfhand because he’ll get the trust of the skull men and the leader north of the wall. I think that Halfhand was the biggest enemie of them, so killing him Jon become one of them i think.(of course he just fools them).
    The only thing i don’t understand is who burned Winterfell? But i think that’s in season 3 to find out… :)

  239. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Matt Vukovic,

    You see in the books you’d already have known who did it and why.
    In the books Quorin tells Jon to kill him in order to spy on the Wildlings and make it back to the wall to warn the watch. In what is a very powerful moment that I really wish theyd put in, Quorin and Jon kneel and recite their vows together before they begin their duel to the death.
    Also do you have any idea why Ygritte has been coming on to Jon so strongly? And it’s not cause she thinks he’s hot or soemthing like that.

  240. Nicolai Hansen
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    The Winter Rose,

    Shae is no slave in the show, she’s a whore.

  241. New Wolf
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    I agree with this list. I would add the scenes with Arya and Tywin and the scenes where there are no POV characters (for example, Littlefinger – Varys)

  242. New Wolf
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,
    ” Even though I loved the House of the Undying in the series, you can’t say it was perfect because you have no idea what was left out”

    I can’t agree with this. It makes no sense in my opinion. It can be perfect to him because he doesn’t know what was left out. I watched the second season before reading the books and I loved those scenes in the House of the Undying. Even after reading that part in the book, I think they handled it the best they could. Books and tv series are a totally different medium so everything can’t be the same.

    The only changes I don’t like are the ones that have to do with the characters. For example, I don’t like how they changed Renly into a stereotypical homosexual. I didn’t mind it when I watched it but when I read the books I really wished they didn’t change him so much. I think it was so out of character when he flinched at the sight of blood in the first season.
    Also, I don’t think Littlefinger would ever act like he did in the second season with Cat.

    But all in all, I think the adaptation is really, really great. And I am grateful the show is in the hands of D&D.

  243. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    New Wolf,

    Well the HOTU is perhaps a bad example because I also liked the changes and didn’t think that the prphetic visions Dany saw would work on screen. I liked the changes in the HOTU. It’s just impossible to have an objective opinion about something if you don’t have the whole picture.
    For instance Jon Snow’s storyline you might think it’s good just from watching the tv series, but when you read the book you realise, omw! it could have been a lot better! Jon could look more like a sacrificing hero and less like an enraged teenage boy who can’t take insults.

  244. JonathanL
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    I think a lot of folks get hung up on something that clearly delineates the show from the books. While I love the entire story, the books are about the past nearly as much as they are about the present. The decisions and actions taken a generation before permeate everything.

    The show has enough of a challenge getting current story elements into one season that it’s hard to fault it for not digging too much in the past. The book is the whole story; the show is the story now. It’s less rich for it, but you can’t blame HBO for it, either. Could you imagine the immensity of the undertaking? You’re talking more like 15 episodes per book for the first two alone.

  245. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Perhaps we need a scale for assessing reader reactions to changes, good and bad. I propose the following:

    +2- Genius. This is going to be great.
    +1- I think I like this better than in the book.
    0- I see why this was done but I’d have chosen differently (not necessarily as in the book though)
    -1- Liked the book version better.
    -2- WTF? Nooooo!

    Examples are (personal opinion, YMMV)
    +2- a chance for Arya and Tywin to interact
    +1- Xaro
    0- Talisa
    -1- Qhorin’s story
    -2- Where is Jaquen’s hot tub scene?! :)

  246. Ash
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    what do you think the blue rose represents?

  247. Ours is the Fury
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Nicolai Hansen,

    Yeah, not sure either where the “slave” idea came from- Shae’s no slave, she can choose to come or go, stay with Tyrion or sleep with whomever she wants. She is a prostitute, camp follower, whatever word you prefer, but no one owns her. She isn’t required to be totally submissive and agreeable. Interesting that someone woud assume she’s a slave.

  248. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Shinyteapot,

    I like this idea very much
    showing Robbs campaign +2
    Jon’s Storyline -2
    HOTU +1
    Arya Tywin 0
    Shae +3
    Everything involving Bron +3
    Bron and the Hound nearly coming to blows +3
    the Hound’s role being smaller -3

  249. Razvan Nistor
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    OhMan, It’s not really implied that Xaro dies, just that he was closed in that stone room. Maybe some of his men will discover him shortly after that happens and so he lives. I know Dany has the key, but still…it’s plausible.

  250. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Why thankyou, your Grace :)

    Theon’s conversation with Luwin +2
    Catelyn and Robb don’t get bad news before making rash decisions -2
    Osha+1
    Rodrick’s death+2
    Doreah’s betrayal 0
    Irri’s death -1
    Littlefinger much less subtle and secretive -3

  251. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    Shinyteapot:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Why thankyou, your Grace :)

    Theon’s conversation with Luwin +2
    Catelyn and Robb don’t get bad news before making rash decisions -2
    Osha+1
    Rodrick’s death+2
    Doreah’s betrayal 0
    Irri’s death -1
    Littlefinger much less subtle and secretive -3

    Agree 100%

  252. TheFlayedLady
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    I liked most of the changes, would have liked to see Rhaegar Targaryan in the House of Undying, but understand most viewers would be lost.
    All the Tyrion/Bronn/Varys scens have been brilliant, as have the scenes between Arya & Tywin (which should have been with Roose Bolton but never mind, still plenty of Roosy to go around)

    However…. 1 thing that should never have made it into series 2: The scene between The Hound & Bronn. If this is to set something up between them in later epis I’m gonna scream my eyes out as it was so stupid & ridiculous. The Hound does NOT just randomly go about starting trouble with cocky sell-swords. On my 2nd viewing, I fast forwarded that part as it made me grimace.

    But other than that, I love it :D

  253. KG
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Pssst … bet on me, in that event.

  254. KG
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and I was really hoping for a dose of Viserys in the HotU. I was quite disappointed.

  255. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Trial by combat ? You mean me and Mrs.H’Gar ? No, no, no..I would never draw steel on Mrs.H’Gar..I feel too much empathy for her ( can’t be easy,being married to Jaqen.. think of the washing..the here today and gone tomorrow ..you never know who he’s going to look like from one minute to the next …something that looks like Biter walks in and says” Did a woman miss me ? What’s for dinner ? A man is ravenous..” ..Of course , he might walk in looking more like Jaime , so there are pluses..)

    I could have presented myself as Jaqen’s mother…but that would have made me her mother-in-law …unwise.

  256. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian,
    haha! And you can always say ‘Me? Cheating? Do you mean it wasn’t you? I swear I didn’t know! He even gave me our little password before coming to bed, he said “valar morghulis”!’

    Sorry, Mrs. H’gar, it’s the jealousy speaking… ;)

  257. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    Having someone say “all men must die” right before going to bed with you is a little bit creepy.
    Ah damn would’ve looked forward to a Clash of Femmes.
    Is KG also a woman? Daim people really need to stop picking gender neutral names.

  258. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Yes, I know it could be seen as such, but it’s to be taken as in “let’s make the most of every minute since we could be dead tomorrow.”

    carpe diem

  259. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Shinyteapot,

    Varys sharing only a part of his backstory +2
    Stannis leading his vanguard +2
    Cersei and Tommen during Blackwater +2
    Bear and the Maiden Fair not having made an appearance yet -2
    White Walkers making an early appearance +2
    Dagmer Cleftjaw being a young nobody -2
    Meera and Jojen Reed not having joined Bran yet 0
    Lancel not having the silly moustache -2
    Jacelyn Bywater being cut 0

  260. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    Ok if someone explained it then yes, but just Valar Morghullis is a bit morbid.

  261. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    (in fairness I just couldn’t think of any other Jaqen related secret password)

  262. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Mmmm it seems you have pickd up another um shall we say fan.

  263. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Oops ! me again..are you still speaking to me ? :D ( I haven’t seen him for a couple of months , now..)

    I meant to add, had Jaqen been given the attention he deserves , he would already have given Arya valuable lessons , useful in surviving in dangerous times , and life in general…Even if she never becomes a FM … Think about what you set out to do .How to listen. How to move silently. take responsibility ( at least to yourself ) for your actions .., “A girl should be bloody too , this is her work. ”

    Yes, a woman is still speaking to you…my REAL Jaqen would never cheat, but fantasy Jaqen…maybe. We will let that pass and stay with the topic, changes to the story on GoT.

    Arya’s story looks like it’s unfolding at a different pace than the books (though some have forgotten that she DID kill the stable boy in KL before taking off with Yoren, and had a hand in all those other deaths by now in the story, so she is hardly innocent any longer), but will eventually catch up to her book self in time. My biggest qualms with her Harrenhall situation was that she went from captive to cupbearer without the drudgery that she had to go through in the books. It seemed that the drudgery she went through at Harrenhall in the books helped her to have more sympathy for the low-born, and going right to cupbearer bypassed that part of her character development. She’s still been a bit coddled compared to the lives of the scullery maids and such. But some of her character development will have to be “understood” I suppose, as Arya would need her own 10-episode show to go into all that detail.

  264. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    New Wolf,

    Well the HOTU is perhaps a bad example because I also liked the changes and didn’t think that the prphetic visions Dany saw would work on screen. I liked the changes in the HOTU. It’s just impossible to have an objective opinion about something if you don’t have the whole picture.
    For instance Jon Snow’s storyline you might think it’s good just from watching the tv series, but when you read the book you realise, omw! it could have been a lot better! Jon could look more like a sacrificing hero and less like an enraged teenage boy who can’t take insults.

    Qorin did in fact hint to Jon to infiltrate the wildlings several times, including telling him he would have to fight him to show Jon’s turned to the wildling side. A woman cannot remember the exact words, and they may have been slightly mumbled because J&Q were captured and could not speak very privately, but the orders were given and understood by Jon even though he was naturally reluctant to carry out the plan.

  265. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    JS,

    I think Mrs.H’gar shares a time zone with me as well as a beloved..if so , she probably has a job , or classes , or some such mundane necessity to see to.

    ETA: Oops , NOPE..there she is !

  266. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    (in fairness I just couldn’t think of any other Jaqen related secret password)

    Valar Dohaeris would be a good password (all men must serve). Ha!

  267. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    JS,

    I think Mrs.H’gar shares a time zone with me as well as a beloved..if so , she probably has a job , or classes , or some such mundane necessity to see to.

    ETA: Oops , NOPE..there she is !

    It is most probable that Obsidian’s Jaqen could be wearing the face of a woman’s Jaqen, at least it’s possible. But why quibble, Jaqen sometimes wears the faces of many famous people merely to amuse his Mrs., so tolerance goes with the territory.

  268. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Mmmm it seems you have pickd up another um shall we say fan.

    Sometimes a woman chooses to ignore such personal attacks. Some posters have no sense of humor or appreciation for virtual role play. That is not my problem.

  269. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Of course!! Brilliant. ;)

  270. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I wondered how clearly that came across to a non reader..the dialogue was pretty rushed, and not too clear. I missed the Qorin /Jon conversations , and especially as Show Qorin was so damned good… I like Show Ygriite a lot and expect her to be great next season , but lamented the length of her scenes cutting into J/Q..

    So I felt completely torn over that whole turn of events.. :)

  271. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I wondered how clearly that came across to a non reader..the dialogue was pretty rushed, and not too clear. I missed the Qorin /Jon conversations , and especially as Show Qorin was so damned good… I like Show Ygriite a lot and expect her to be great next season , but lamented the length of her scenes cutting into J/Q..

    So I felt completely torn over that whole turn of events.. :)

    It is a puzzlement that D&D chose to give more time to Ygritte when she will certainly have much more time in S3, while just a few moments more with Qorin would have tied that bow a little better. We cannot see through D&D’s eyes behind the scenes, but a woman thinks they must have thought they completed Qorin’s arc well enough with what they presented. Qorin-fans would beg to differ, but perfection is elusive on this earth, it is known.

  272. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I hope you didn’t think I was casting aspersions on your virtual role play..No, NO.. I think it’s funny and fun..I was merely trying to engage you in a similar vein . It never occurred to me that you would take it as anything else. I’m dismayed that you would take it as a personal attack ( Dang it , that the internet obscures tone. ) I’m sorry if I offended you . Nothing could have been farther from my intentions.

  273. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I hope you didn’t think I was casting aspersions on your virtual role play..No, NO.. I think it’s funny and fun..I was merely trying to engage you in a similar vein . It never occurred to me that you would take it as anything else. I’m dismayed that you would take it as a personal attack ( Dang it , that the internet obscures tone. ) I’m sorry if I offended you . Nothing could have been farther from my intentions.

    It was not you, but another poster who said something like “what’s wrong with you?” to a woman. Your intentions were clearly meant as playful so please do not feel that it was you. With your point about tone in mind, even that poster may have been kidding. But not everybody appreciates the Lorathi syntax, even lightly sprinkled in a playful manner. Nobody has to read a woman’s comments if they find her offensive though, right?

  274. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I really hope WIC.net sends some stern warnings out to some people because the personal attacks on your online character are starting to really piss me off seeing as they are outsiders with nothing usefull to say and you are an appreciated popular member of the WIC.net community.
    Oh and just for clarification’s sake, I was not reffering to you Obsidian and Mrs H’ghar pointed out.

  275. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I really hope WIC.net sends some stern warnings out to some people because the personal attacks on your online character are starting to really piss me off seeing as they are outsiders with nothing usefull to say and you are an appreciated popular member of the WIC.net community.

    Your Grace’s sentiments are appreciated. A woman’s virtual name was chosen as a homage and in a positive/playful manner much as yours, with no intent to ever offend anybody. However, it is clear that in this world some people are actively looking for something to be offended by and to complain about. It is puzzling/surprising that a person or persons would find Mrs. H’ghar so offensive as to attack as we have seen several times lately. Is the moon still full?

  276. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    I don’t understand it eitherm, why you the whole time? Why not any one of us? I am calling me banners! Winter is Coming, Ours is the Fury, please guys we could really use some help here.

  277. WildSeed
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: It appears you have misunderstood a woman’s meaning. The Arya/Jaqen scenes were appreciated and it would have been great to have seen more! It did seem that Arya/Tywin was great but overdone, repeated ad nauseum and yes, took time away from Arya/Jaqen showing a deeper relationship AND from showing much of Arya’s personal hardships that would mold her character. But the final meeting of Arya/Jaqen was meant to show (IMO) that he was trying to tell her that she could follow the path of the assassin and kill all those on her list and “offer those up” to the Red god, thereby explaining to her that her path would be an honorable or even spiritual pursuit if followed in the manner of his training. We disagree on some aspects, but agree that there should have been MORE JAQEN/Arya scenes!

    I agree with you, the noble pursuit was missed entirely. Perhaps in upcoming seasons this missing element will be explored.

  278. WildSeed
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Holy hell, it’s snowing like crazy here! Only the second time in my life that I have seen snow (not counting the snow capped mountains in the Cape every winter) The first time was six years back. But it’s been snowing on and off for the last six hours or so.

    and Winter is Coming.

  279. WildSeed
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Matt Vukovic,

    You see in the books you’d already have known who did it and why.
    In the books Quorin tells Jon to kill him in order to spy on the Wildlings and make it back to the wall to warn the watch. In what is a very powerful moment that I really wish theyd put in, Quorin and Jon kneel and recite their vows together before they begin their duel to the death.
    Also do you have any idea why Ygritte has been coming on to Jon so strongly? And it’s not cause she thinks he’s hot or soemthing like that.

    Ditto Ditto Ditto

  280. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Haha MAgs Giantbabe sent that to me on fb earlier today too. Have new respect for European Rugby Players, practised in the snow tonight, now fun!

  281. WildSeed
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Trial by combat ? You mean me and Mrs.H’Gar ? No, no, no..I would never draw steel on Mrs.H’Gar..I feel too much empathy for her ( can’t be easy,being married to Jaqen.. think of the washing..the here today and gone tomorrow ..you never know who he’s going to look like from one minute to the next …something that looks like Biter walks in and says” Did a woman miss me ? What’s for dinner ? A man is ravenous..” ..Of course , he might walk in looking more like Jaime , so there are pluses..)

    I could have presented myself as Jaqen’s mother…but that would have made me her mother-in-law …unwise.

    LOL !!!!

  282. WildSeed
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Tír Airgid,

    Having someone say “all men must die” right before going to bed with you is a little bit creepy.
    Ah damn would’ve looked forward to a Clash of Femmes.
    Is KG also a woman? Daim people really need to stop picking gender neutral names.

    Ha Ha Ha Ha….. we are shape shifters !

  283. Tereeza777
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    To Mrs. H’ghar – it’s jealousy – that’s all it is. You got the man that everyone wanted. If you have time, check out Tom’s Tumblr site today – as if the eyes and lips were not enough – look at those hands! And the foto right below – totally buff, in a black tank shirt with fedora hat. Best Tumblr site ever!

  284. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Oh, Phew ! So relieved it wasn’t me…I like to play, too..

    I’ll go off now to think some more about Jaqen , disguised as Jaime..then revealing himself in a moment of…never mind.

  285. WildSeed
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: Qorin did in fact hint to Jon to infiltrate the wildlings several times, including telling him he would have to fight him to show Jon’s turned to the wildling side. A woman cannot remember the exact words, and they may have been slightly mumbled because J&Q were captured and could not speak very privately, but the orders were given and understood by Jon even though he was naturally reluctant to carry out the plan.

    I re-watched these scenes with scrutiny because I hoped I missed something but it
    appears I did not. It was inconceivable that Qhorin could make much sense to Jon
    in such hushed tones and surrounded by Wildlings. Qhorin did try to reinforce his
    meaning by setting Jon up for a fight and a fight was all it was. The two verbal
    attempts by Qhorin were unintelligeniable and rushed. As a reader I knew what he
    meant to convey and the assurance he sought from Jon that he understood as well
    as held sacred the Black Bros Vows. As a viewer it seemed that Qhorin convinced
    Jon to fight and/or kill him so that the Wildlings could ( as Ygritte said ” tell Mance
    that here is the man that killed Qhorin Halfhand”) be impressed. Not everyone
    realized what made Qhorin “special”, ironically he wasn’t. Qhorin just wanted Jon
    to infiltrate the group and convince them collectively as a dual spy or whatever it took.
    There is S3 to look forward to and balance out this shortcoming. Benioff and Weiss
    may indeed have a plan that may have us all nodding our heads for a yes.

  286. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: I re-watched these scenes with scrutiny because I hoped I missed something but it appears I did not. It was inconceivable that Qhorin could make much sense to Jon in such hushed tones and surrounded by Wildlings. Qhorin did try to reinforce his meaning by setting Jon up for a fight and a fight was all it was. The two verbal attempts by Qhorin were unintelligeniable and rushed. As a reader I knew what he meant to convey and the assurance he sought from Jon that he understood as well as held sacred the Black Bros Vows. As a viewer it seemed that Qhorin convinced Jon to fight and/or kill him so that the Wildlings could ( as Ygritte said ” tell Mance that here is the man that killed Qhorin Halfhand”) be impressed. Not everyone realized what made Qhorin “special”, ironically he wasn’t. Qhorin just wanted Jon
    to infiltrate the group and convince them collectively as a dual spy or whatever it took. There is S3 to look forward to and balance out this shortcoming. Benioff and Weiss may indeed have a plan that may have us all nodding our heads for a yes.

    It appears that there is an epidemic of actor-mumbling on TV and in films lately. A woman saw the new Batman movie last week and there were many quizzical glances between film-watchers as much of the earliest dialogue was unintelligible. Perhaps D&D thought they were getting their point across, but with so many commenters unhappy with Qorin’s arc, the point was not made well-enough for many viewers. Qorin did at one point say “one man inside with the wildlings would learn more than 1,000 looking from the outside” (paraphrasing), but it could have been several episodes back before the fight and perhaps was forgotten by most. Since I did read the books between S1 &S2, the conclusion was known to me so I can’t say if I would have gotten the full picture without knowing ahead of time what was likely to happen. Oh well. Viewers will understand as S3 unfolds.

  287. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    Tereeza777:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    To Mrs. H’ghar–it’s jealousy – that’s all it is.You got the man that everyone wanted.Ifyou have time,check out Tom’s Tumblr site today–as if the eyes and lips were not enough – look at those hands! And the foto right below – totally buff, in a black tank shirt with fedora hat. Best Tumblr site ever!

    A woman thanks you for your comments. AND the tumblr suggestion, I hadn’t checked it out in a while and it is WICKED! Yes, the fedora shot…that’s art. But love the color ones too since the eyes…well yeah.

  288. Obsidian
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    It seems to me, that the goading Jon into the fight scene …even without Qhorin’s preparation , stressing that Jon must do whatever they ask of him … might have worked better if they hadn’t written Jon as such chump in previous episodes..:)..Qhorin had not just heard of Jon saving Mormont from the fire , but had some expectation of him because he was Benjen’s nephew.. He asked to take Jon , not the reverse..Then, they write it as Jon’s fault they were captured and two of their number killed , yet Qhorin would think Jon would take his meaning from those few mumbled words..

    Maybe I shouldn’t go off on this now. Maybe we’ll have a Changes That DIDN’T Work thread coming up. This will be right up there for me..

  289. House Snow
    Posted August 7, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    I’m not saying the north of the wall scenes were perfect but I don’t get why people are so outraged that Jon isn’t more of badass at this pont (same goes for Dany). I think the grow into there roles is much more realistic than the born to rule track people seem to favor

  290. mags giantsbabe
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    House Snow

    I agree, I mentioned this point earlier this year during an episode thread. Jon and Dany can’t be badass all the time. I agree that the arcs weren’t perfect this season, in hindsight now I think Kit Harington’s mumbling is partially a result of an inexperienced actor not entirely sure what to do with flawed dialogue. Whereas Simon Armstrong handled his limited dialogue brilliantly. Although (and someone else already mentioned this somewhere) had it not been for Kit’s expressive face (at the times when he’s actaully allowed to be more expressive), the Jon/ Quorin scene would have gone to the dogs.

    What I hope for for Season3 going into season 4 is that we will be shown a different side of Jon, such as his development as a sexual being and hints that he is in fact, a true leader and how the two will come in conflict with one another, in a sense.

    Aegon

    Glad you got my message, the snow was ominous and beautiful.

  291. mags giantsbabe
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    And everyone who is criticising the Nights Watch arc seems to be forgetting the brilliant Jon/Sam scene in ep2. The fact that Sam gets more focus at Craster’s Keep was a good change, I should say.

  292. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe,

    Look there were some good things in the North of the Wall story that I liked, for instance Jon seeing a White Walker and getting knocked out by Craster. I loved Ygritte and she was one of my favourites!
    I am simply saying (going back to the start of the debate) that when compared to the books Jon just appears like an arrogant teenage boy. Funnily enough he is a teenage boy in the books but comes across as more mature. I’m not talking about him being badass, just smarter and a lot less clumsy.
    Also the scene with him and the Halfhand reciting their vows together is such a goosebumps moment, I can’t for the life of me understand why they cut it.

  293. YvyB
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    I read books after season two and I totally understood the Jon/ halfhand scenario. Possibly because at the start of the programmes they showed a story so far bit and they were usually relevant to that week. They showed halfhand telling Jon it would be better to have some one inside the camp. However, after reading the chapters , I have to agree Jon does come across initially as such a goof!( in the show) We shall just have to wait and see I guess.

  294. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,
    As the saying goes “the dogs’ barking just signals the riders passing” ;)

  295. Amy
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    I agree with you on the Hound/Sansa interaction. I thought they didn’t give it enough time or put enough emotion into the scene when Sansa finds him hiding in her room.

    Becky Wilson,

  296. Alan
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    I talk with about nine friends/family about the show and none of them have read the books, and every single one got Qhorin’s plan.

    Game of Thrones has so much as a show that you really do need to watch and remember every single line. It’s all in there, it’s just that you can’t half-watch it and keep up. Too many times something is conveyed by a single line.

    In the Qhorin – Jon case, the plan was conveyed over several episodes, making it tougher.

  297. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Shinyteapot,

    Varys sharing only a part of his backstory +2
    Stannis leading his vanguard +2
    Cersei and Tommen during Blackwater +2
    Bear and the Maiden Fair not having made an appearance yet-2
    White Walkers making an early appearance +2
    Dagmer Cleftjaw being a young nobody -2
    Meera and Jojen Reed not having joined Bran yet 0
    Lancel not having the silly moustache -2
    Jacelyn Bywater being cut 0

    Agree with all these except Lancel’s moustache- looking like a girl suits the character even better!

  298. sjwenings
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Alan: In the Qhorin – Jon case, the plan was conveyed over several episodes

    It was? I only remember the one time in ep 8 where Qhorin tells Jon how much an inside man is worth and that they might trust him “if you do what needs to be done” I’m not sure many remembered that later, or even caught it when it happened.

  299. tysnow
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    I hope WiC is checking into that report of Lino being in season 3, if there is truth to the article, this would be one of the biggest changes to the books yet.
    I can logically see a delegation from the Vale attending Joff and Margaery’s wedding. This could also mean the Myranda role by Ms. Hope is validated (she could be part of an entourage). Then again D&D could be involving the Vale, just to keep it in the minds of the viewers so it won’t come as a shock in season 5.
    My favorite change to the story so far has been Theon’s enlarged arc, second was the Dance and Williams verbal duet.

  300. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Shinyteapot,

    Hahaha no thought the whole look I’m a man but I scream like a girl would work better. Plus Tyrion’s inner quips about it would’ve been hilarious!

    Sallador Saan making only one appearance -2
    Lommy Greenhands dying early +3
    Still no Riverrun -2
    Talisa +2
    Robb’s stupid descisions purely cause of Talisa -2
    No Ice -2
    Tywin Lannister’s Human side +3
    The Mountain loses weight -2
    Details surrounding Robb’s victory at Oxcross is not revealed -2
    Despite catching the army while asleep Robb loses 1 man to every 5 Lannisters -2 (should have been a lot less dead Starks)
    Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik’s deaths portrayed onscreen +3
    Gilly approaching Sam instead of Jon +2
    Arstan Whitebeard not having appeared yet -2

    Had trouble sleeping last night, thought of the different changes till I fell asleep.

  301. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    Hmmm he might be in, but there is no way he would attend Joff’s wedding!
    Lysa would never willingly send her son into Lannister territory and a Lannister Wedding. So logically I cannot see this happening, they might show something of the Vale though. Perhaps Marillyon 2.0 or whatever they are gonna call him making a call on court or Littlefinger visiting and setting up Sansa’s escape.

  302. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings,

    When the series aired over here there was no “last time on GOT” clips beforehand the episode just started. If the whole one man blah blah blah was aired before the episode it becomes much clearer. But still pretty weak in comparison with what happened in the book.

  303. Kosis
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    No Lollys -5

  304. dio forel
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Ours makes a strong argument I must admit. Never really seen why the Blue Rose debate got so far. I mean I literally read the HOTU chapter in ACOK three days ago and I had to think about the whole Blue Rose thing for a while before it came back to me.

    It matters because its a clue to one of the biggest mysteries of the series.. we have had basically none of the mystery element in the tv show which is disappointing. So many questions are still unanswered and a lot of us just hoped to see some of the questions at least addressed or hinted at

  305. Alan
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings: It was? I only remember the one time in ep 8 where Qhorin tells Jon how much an inside man is worth and that they might trust him “if you do what needs to be done” I’m not sure many remembered that later, or even caught it when it happened.

    I was referring to the whole sequence. Starting with that, Qhorin’s obvious fake fight, and the in the final scene.

    Myself and everyone I know thought it was clear. No, there was no, “now here’s what we’re going to do.” And yes, if you missed a line or two along the way, you are kind of screwed.

    But the previous argument above made it sound like the writers literally left it out. It wasn’t. Some people didn’t catch it, but it was there.

  306. Alan
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    WildSeed,

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Maybe I shouldn’t go off on this now. Maybe we’ll have a Changes That DIDN’T Work thread coming up. This will be right up there for me..

    Isn’t that every thread ever?

  307. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    LOL!

  308. Alan
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    While I love the flashbacks in the book, and am disappointed we didn’t get the Tower or Joy (and would have loved to see other flashbacks as well, like R & L or Brandon and Rickard in the throne room), I have to admit I wish there wasn’t a word of legitimate prophecy in ASOIF.

    Martin has been careful to have a lot of multiple possible interpretations out there — multiple options for a good half of what has been said. But it’s still remarkably accurate, and while I get that it is fantasy, the lure of ASOIF for me is the realism aspect. When something fantastical drastically changes the core elements of the human experience away, it becomes a problem for me.

    Dragons? Skinchanging and most of the magic? They don’t (often) change human realities. They are big weapons or an interaction with nature, or an element of deception.

    Prophecy? The idea that there is effective future telling changes things significantly — I know there’s lots of us real humans who believe in destiny, etc. (I obviously don’t) but there’s never been a prophet with the level of specific accuracy available and quantity as in ASOIF.

    Frankly, prophecy ruins fantasy stories for me — if a character is destined to do something, where is the struggle? That’s what interests me. I understand that doesn’t interest everyone (every time someone uses the word badass I realize we have complete other interests in the story), but I don’t really get why people get so interested in a predestined outcome.

  309. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    I’m curious about the rumour of Lino appearing this season. If it’s true… I think it would be a little out of character for all the Vale entourage to suddenly leave the cherished safety of their remote stronghold to dine at the lion’s den. Perhaps they’ll do a scene or two at the Vale showing Littlefinger’s proposal, arrival or wedding? They’ll probably want to keep him (and them) visible.

  310. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    There are thousands of prophecy right throughout history that have come true in some or other way. Hahaha and as for your prophecy doesnt exist argument check out the CHarismatic movement. Now I’m not saying I believe in all that everyone can tell the future crap. But having seen that movement and comparing it with GRRM’s world I find the two oddly similar. Seeing thousands of peoples lives ruined by religious and fake mumbo jumbo seems like something that could happen in GOT. The one thing that I find hilariously ironic and funny (although no one in the charismatic movement will admit this) is GRRM’s statement that Prophecy is a blade without a guard or a handle, it cuts both ways.
    So I like the prophecy in ASOIAF simply because the way it comes true and affects those who have received it is quite accurate when compared to today’s world.

  311. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    Two things, check above already said something similar, two spoiler tags man! The non readers here are on the warpath!

  312. Tír Airgid
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Oops! Thank you for the heads up about the lack of spoiler tags. *blush* I’ll eventually get the hang of it. Apologies if anyone saw sth they shouldn’t have seen! I hope I corrected that in time.

    Hadn’t seen ur entry until after I posted but yes, we’re thinking pretty much along the same lines there.

  313. YvyB
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Oh my ! For me half the fun is the prophecies , dreams, foretelling etc. trying to work out , the little clues everywhere, love it! Bring it on I say :)

  314. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I’m still hoping at least some of the prophecy turns out to be BS.

    One of the great strengths of ASOIAF is the realistic characters. This should include plenty of charlatans and con-merchants. As well as the occasional genuinely deluded/insane person. I would expect that for every genuine gifted prophet in ASOIAF, there would be about a million of the above? If not, the story is really missing something.

    I may of course be disappointed, as thus far we’ve had a few storylines that seem to be heading for ‘prophecy was right, but not in the obvious way’ as well as a few correct predictions, but I can hope.

  315. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Tír Airgid,

    Haha no probs, just a friendly warning, those non readers aren’t fans of we the readers.

  316. Alan
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Alan,

    Seeing thousands of peoples lives ruined by religious and fake mumbo jumbo seems like something that could happen in GOT.

    Well, this I can agree with. I don’t mind that prophecy exists in the world, and that people act on it.

    I am dismayed at the accuracy rate, I suppose. Or perhaps even assumptions of accuracy rate by readers. Most prophecy that has come true requires a ridiculous amount of stretching and almost always has this massive open ended time commitment. No prophecy I know of (that has been true) has been proveable accurate on date and very clear.

    So some I find reasonably accurate — some, like the last Quaithe one (Son’s son, etc.) or Melisandre seeing in her fires or many of the dreams people have — seem way too unambiguous to me.

    Martin’s stuff isn’t as awful in this respect, like, say David Eddings’, where prophecy got so bad the books actually got meta to the point where the characters are discussing how anticlimatic it is that they are predestined to win (and for a second time, too — so repetitious pre-destiny… I’m not sure I could get more bored unless people with godlike powers are involved… oh, wait, yes, it had that as well).

    As for real world examples, I don’t really want to get into a debate about people’s beliefs, but if you have an example of a prophecy, correctly interpreted BEFORE the fulfillment, and it was fulfilled on those terms in very specific action, I’d love to hear it. But keep in mind I’m a skeptic. Like 95% of the ridiculous theories on Westeros, just because something fits to the point of well, nothing definitive refutes it — doesn’t mean it’s proven — most prophecies are so vague that almost anything can fit.

  317. Alan
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    Shinyteapot:
    Alan,

    I’m still hoping at least some of the prophecy turns out to be BS.

    One of the great strengths of ASOIAF is the realistic characters.This should include plenty of charlatans and con-merchants.As well as the occasional genuinely deluded/insane person.I would expect that for every genuine gifted prophet in ASOIAF, there would be about a million of the above?If not, the story is really missing something.

    I may of course be disappointed, as thus far we’ve had a few storylines that seem to be heading for ‘prophecy was right, but not in the obvious way’ as well as a few correct predictions, but I can hope.

    Agree.

    Martin definitely goes for a lot of “many possible options that fit” — PtwP/AA, the perfumed Seneschal, Dany’s betrayals.

    What has been debunked? The Stallion that Mounts the World? I guess Stannis winning at KL/Stannis as AA, but given that we know Melisandre’s mis-step in interpretation of in the Arya/Alys Karstark example, we know she sees some things that are very real (at least in realtime). So I don’t know if we’re supposed to believe her future visions as actually legit but difficult to interpret or what.

    Either way, most of the prophecies / visions have come true and in remarkably clear fashion, whether they are Bran’s dreams or Melisandre’s flames. It just takes some of the agency and uncertainty out for me, as well as making the characters less like real life.

  318. Watson
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    It is equally plausible that Robin and Lysa will be attending Hoster’s funeral.

  319. Shinyteapot
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    There are now theories (to which I do not subscribe, but that may be down to my wanting a prophecy to be wrong) that the ‘Stallion’ refers not to the obvious (Rhaego), as that was wrong, but one of Dany’s winged ‘children’. (speculation only, spoilered just in case)

    It is fantasy, so I could live with the occasional accurate prophecy, like ‘the sea comes to Winterfell’. But I’d much prefer it if this was the exception rather than the rule.

    Self-fulfilling prophecies and/or characters reinterpreting a prophecy after the fact to make it fit are examples of normal human nature to me, so those I have no issue with.

    Watson:
    It is equally plausible that Robin and Lysa will be attending Hoster’s funeral.

    I find this unlikely given Lysa wants to keep her son safe in the Eyrie, and hates Hoster.

  320. Jen
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    One of the added scenes that I loved was the scene in Season 1 between Robert and Cersei.

    and I agree that the final scene with Ned seeing Arya before he dies was really nice, I always wished that that final scene could have been told from his perspective.

    -J

  321. tysnow
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Lysa would never willingly send her son into Lannister territory and a Lannister Wedding

    I agree, though there could be scenes set in the Vale where Lysa receives invite to attend wedding, and decides to send an entourage consisting of Myrand and others. She has to send some nobles from Vale ot it is an insult and gives Lannisters excuse to label the Vale, rebellious. Furthermore, perhaps the Blackfish shows up at Hoster’s funeral as a official Vale representative, along with others.

  322. YvyB
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Aegon the Conqueror,

    I agree, though there could be scenes set in the Vale where Lysa receives invite to attend wedding, and decides to send an entourage consisting of Myrand and others. She has to send some nobles from Vale ot it is an insult and gives Lannisters excuse to label the Vale, rebellious. Furthermore, perhaps the Blackfish shows up at Hoster’s funeral as a official Vale representative, along with others.

    Yes! Like that .

  323. WildSeed
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Obsidian:
    WildSeed,

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    It seems to me, that the goading Jon into the fight scene …even without Qhorin’s preparation , stressing that Jon must do whatever they ask of him … might have worked better if they hadn’t written Jon as such chump in previous episodes..:)..Qhorin had not just heard of Jon saving Mormont from the fire , but had some expectation of him because he was Benjen’s nephew.. He asked to take Jon , not the reverse..Then, they write it as Jon’s fault they were captured and two of their number killed , yet Qhorin would think Jon would take his meaning from those few mumbled words..

    Maybe I shouldn’t go off on this now. Maybe we’ll have a Changes That DIDN’T Work thread coming up. This will be right up there for me..

    Yeah that did happen didn’t it ( * sigh * ) I was hoping I’d imagined that mistake.
    There were so many miss steps with Jon’s character in S2.

  324. WildSeed
    Posted August 8, 2012 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    House Snow:
    I’m not saying the north of the wall scenes were perfect but I don’t get why people are so outraged that Jon isn’t more of badass at this pont (same goes for Dany).I think the grow into there roles is much more realistic than the born to rule track people seem to favor

    There is no ” Outrage ” here, only friendly discussion.

  325. mags giantsbabe
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conquerer

    I wanted to see the vows too, plus Quorin and Jon sitting around the fire and Jon realising they are going to die when be realises the firewood and food is finished. So I was also dissappointed. I’m trying to look at the positive things on the show right now. It’s as if they wrote all the parts that they deemed important (KL, Theon, intro to new characters) and then decided to squeeze Jon in wherever there was screentime available.

    Jon didn’t come across to me as arrogant, only a little clumsy yes, and less quietly strong and contemplative than in the book, yet I’m not sure how you would show the latter. And the former might be a desire on KH’s part to make Jon seem more human, and the ‘clumsiness’ was the ‘best’ way for the writers to show his humanness. Did it work? I’m not sure.

    But yes, a couple of non-readers I know also completely got Quorin’s orders to Jon, they just sort of wanted confirmation from me that this was in fact what’s going on.

    Currently I keep racking my brains where they could possibly cut off Jon’s story in the S3/4 split? I wish personally they would push it forward a little.

  326. πάνος
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    f. disgusting changes. lame excuses. Ηλίθιες αλλαγές οι περισσότερες.

  327. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe,

    Check out my solution to your we are in SA never gonna get it problem on the Preview thread.

  328. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Winter is Coming, Hear me Roar, Ours if the Fury

    Please help!

    Check above jackass!

  329. Vanderhook
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Actually i get a kick out of mrs hgars twin. In fact the only person ive seen flipping out over this poster is you, even the original mrs hgar largely ignores her. I also havent seen anything remotely offensive posted by her, though i cant speak on the posts that were supposedly deleted by her

    Anyways, i think this was a pretty good list. Especially the loras in renlys armor, rodrik beheading and the spice king. Rodriks beheading is the best scene in the series, and the spice king was cery entertaining if short lived. Not so sure about the omission of chett being something that worked.. I dont think it was a negative that he was ommitted, just.. I dont know.. Neutral?

  330. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Vanderhook,

    It’s because there are several people either straight out attacking Mrs H’ghar or trying to rip off her identity and I’m quite sick of it. The twin never says anything usefull or worth discussing hence my distaste.
    I will not apologise until you choose an original name and persona, then we can talk.

  331. Winter Is Coming
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    To the person posting as Mrs. H’ghar’s Twin (and you know who you are), stop posting under that name or you will be banned. Posting under multiple user names is a no-no around here.

  332. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Thanks much appreciated WIC!!!!
    Vanderhook ignoring you after saying the following: ask anyone of the usual commenters regarding your opinion. Your comments are henceforth ignored!

  333. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Vanderhook,

    It’s because there are several people either straight out attacking Mrs H’ghar or trying to rip off her identity and I’m quite sick of it. The twin never says anything usefull or worth discussing hence my distaste.
    I will not apologise until you choose an original name and persona, then we can talk.

    Many thanks to Your Grace for defending a woman. Hopefully the disturbing trend has passed.

  334. WildSeed
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    How goes your day Mrs H’ghar ? Let’s move on to ASOIAF and similar pursuits. I am
    still learning about Jaqen’s world and the values he practices in his actions and deeds.
    We as readers stand to learn a great deal more through A… since GRRM has utilized her
    for a particular POV. I wonder if she meets up again with her shipmate to Br…, he was
    quite kind to her as his father. VM .

  335. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    A king’s first duty is to protect his vassals. The H’ghar’s and Targeryens have a long history of WICCING together, one I am very much looking forward to continuing. So yes Mr’s H’ghar makes astute and interesting comments to debate and discuss and Aegon continues to fiercely protect her person and identity ;-) and the fact that a woman’s husband being a master assasin has nothing to do with House Targeryen supporting the true H’ghars.

  336. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    How goes your day Mrs H’ghar ? Let’s move on to ASOIAF and similar pursuits. I am
    still learning about Jaqen’s world and the values he practices in his actions and deeds.
    We as readers stand to learn a great deal more through A… since GRRM has utilized her
    for a particular POV. I wonder if she meets up again with her shipmate to Br…, he was
    quite kind to her as his father. VM .

    My day goes well WildSeed, a woman is preoccupied by domestic chores today! A woman is reading the whole ASOIAF series again for the 3rd time, interesting how much you pick up on subsequent readings. It would be totally cool if Arya gets to see some of her earlier mentors later in the last 2 books, especially Jaqen! Time to feed the shadowcats before they start chewing on a woman’s feet.

  337. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted August 9, 2012 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Mrs. H’ghar,

    A king’s first duty is to protect his vassals. The H’ghar’s and Targeryens have a long history of WICCING together, one I am very much looking forward to continuing. So yes Mr’s H’ghar makes astute and interesting comments to debate and discuss and Aegon continues to fiercely protect her person and identity ;-) and the fact that a woman’s husband being a master assasin has nothing to do with House Targeryen supporting the true H’ghars.

    : – )

  338. Alan
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe:
    Aegon the Conquerer

    I wanted to see the vows too, plus Quorin and Jon sitting around the fire and Jon realising they are going to die when berealises the firewood and food is finished. So I was also dissappointed. I’m trying to look at the positive things on the show right now. It’s as if they wrote all the parts that they deemed important (KL, Theon, intro to new characters) and then decided to squeeze Jon in wherever there was screentime available.

    Jon didn’t come across to me as arrogant, only a little clumsy yes, and less quietly strong and contemplative than in the book, yet I’m not sure how you would show the latter. And the former might be a desire on KH’s part to make Jon seem more human, and the ‘clumsiness’ was the ‘best’ way for the writers to show his humanness. Did it work? I’m not sure.

    But yes, a couple of non-readers I know also completely got Quorin’s orders to Jon, they just sort of wanted confirmation from me that this was in fact what’s going on.

    Currently I keep racking my brains where they could possibly cut off Jon’s story in the S3/4 split? I wish personally they would push it forward a little.

    Doesnt Jon’s story have an obvious split? At the attack on Castle Black from the South?. Am I missing something? It’s halfway through his story, a nice climax, presents a nice character arc and an end for Ygritte.

  339. Dfg421
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 3:05 am | Permalink

    I think the scene where Joffrey makes the whore beat the other one was a great scene to add, to show Joffrey’s true nature. It was good because it still didn’t deviate from his character in the book.
    I DON’T like how they’ve created this relationship bt Tywin Lannister and Arya. They changed Tywin’s character immensely for that. He would never see any point whatsoever in talking so often to a little girl. They also made him look somewhat less cruel than he was in the books by almost taking up for the prisoners when they first get to Harrenhall…
    And I also didn’t like how it kinda seemed like he knew who Arya really was in the show, but what? Didn’t want to imprison her as a hostage because he liked her or something?? That was my least fav part of season 2, all the changes to Arya’s storyline. Actually I should say it like this: I still liked the things they changed, but only when I could make myself forget that this was not only an addition to the books, but changing the characters’ moral standards as well.

  340. Dfg421
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    Alan,

    yea they could have it cutoff when he leaves the Wildlings and leave his story back at castle back to season 4.

  341. Dfg421
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    Jen,

    Wow the execution scene from Ned’s pov alls have been great!!! I bet we would have found out more ab Jon Snow….

  342. Dfg421
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    I’ve decided on a better username and will now use it. The Sand Snake. Ha!!!!

  343. WildSeed
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 4:25 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: My day goes well WildSeed, a woman is preoccupied by domestic chores today! A woman is reading the whole ASOIAF series again for the 3rd time, interesting how much you pick up on subsequent readings. It would be totally cool if Arya gets to see some of her earlier mentors later in the last 2 books, especially Jaqen! Time to feed the shadowcats before they start chewing on a woman’s feet.

    Aye, Shadowcats are truly fierce if hungry, but purr lovingly if you scratch them behind
    their ear. Jaqen will return , it is known.

  344. Louisa
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    I more or less agree with the changes listed except for the LAST one.

    I know, I know… what happened in the book is extremely difficult to film, but as a book reader, the TV version of the HoTU was a tremendous disappointment. The non-book readers had an advantage on not having any sort of expectations at all.

  345. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Aegon, stop, you’re makin’ me hot!

  346. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Tactical facepalm

  347. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Lol! Sounded good to me!

  348. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 10, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Need some bannermen (and ladies) on this but I do not remember Cercei and Lady Stark discussing the death of her first dark haired child in the book(s). Was that not added by D&D? In any case, I liked the scene.

  349. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 11, 2012 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Yes it was, way back in july or august 2009 the news borke about that scene being a new one and people flipped cause in the books its explicitly stated that she aborted her first.

  350. The Sand Snake
    Posted August 11, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Rager,

    Ha I have to agree. I honestly never even noticed their bond.

  351. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 12, 2012 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Easily impressed huh?

  352. WildSeed
    Posted August 12, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    Jen@House Stark,

    Easily impressed huh?

    LOL!

  353. Hsears
    Posted August 13, 2012 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    He Who Slithers,

    I think the changes to Danys storyline depend on how you feel about her. I think she acts like a rotten spoilt brat in most of her POVs and Jorah is her voice of reason, so I think they got that point across pretty clearly. Once again, a matter of opinion, and I’m not a Dany fan. Love me some Iain Glen though.

    I’m really going to miss people talking about “Ducksauce.” kills me every time

  354. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 13, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Your majesty, I meant my blog as a compliment! I prefer my knights not be height challenged. I also thank you for the info re the discussion between the queen and lady Stark, I was not on this site at that time. Lastly, my family has been to your Country, I believe, several times and thought it was breathtakingly beautiful, for what it’s worth.

  355. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 13, 2012 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    In that case I thank you for your gracious words my lady. My people are in general a tall and large people. I am tall, standing in at 6ft3 243lbs, but I am dwarfed by some of my country men.
    Always a good idea to check out the North Remembers articles each month, they are quite intresting, I also had not yet discovered WIC.net back then.
    I thank you for your kind word regarding my homeland. From where do you hail?

  356. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Many thanks for your kind reply. The Starks can ill afford more enemies! I’m in Michigan but my father is retired in Florida now. They have been to South Africa many times and especially love the waterfalls. My brother and his wife are going in a week or so to Johannesburg. My dad has also been to Kenya and Zimbabwe but particularly likes Zimbabwe (wildlife), especially when they are not having a coup!

  357. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Oh Zimbabwe is hands down the most beautiful place I have ever seen. When I was sixteen I went there for a month or two to help with relief work. Was an amazing experience as I lived and ate alongside the locals. Loved to go mountaineering in my spare time.
    Why not join the brother and wife and you can actually meet me, as I live in JHB.

  358. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Goten Tache (sp?)! That’s about the extent of my german. Would love to go but do not have a passport or the required inoculations, so of which made the step mom very ill. I will go someday but right now, can’t, sorry. I had double carpal tunnel surgery this year because I type faster than Melissandre can, and took time off from the office for that, i.e. used my vacation time. I’ll let you know what the relations think when they get back from RSA.

  359. YvyB
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Guten Tag :)

  360. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Thank you, I’m dutch, not deutsch (sp?), sorry! In any case, from the North, thank the wierwood (sp?). Wow.

  361. YvyB
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Ha ha I did German a school a Looooooong time ago. Don’t remember much but remembered that. . Northern England here . :)

  362. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    YvyB,

    Very cool. Loved the olympics, nicely done. My dad’s side is Brit, not giving too much away, my surname has “dale” in it, which according to the ancestors, is very commonly Brit.

  363. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    WOW! I have actually never heard of someone getting carpal tunnel from typing! At least we know at the pace that GRRM writes there’s no danger of that happening anytime soon. Well if you ever make it over here give us a holler. Hows the healing going?

  364. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Actually between the two of us my Italian is much better than my German, but I don’t speak enough of that to have a decent conversation.

  365. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 14, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Cteeonqueror,

    Prego, bon journo, bon journo (sp?) lol. I can speak a little German, a little Russian, a little french and a little italian, also some latin relating to law. I’m fairly fluent in spanish. I volunteer at a local food shelter and you pick up lots of different languages. The hands are much better, thanks. The left is 100% and the right is about 90%. I can still keyboard better than the bionic woman!

  366. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 15, 2012 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    What the hell happened to the second part of my name?
    Oh that’s good to hear, Bona fortuna!
    Cools on the Latin, can speak some Biblical Greek but still in two minds whether I should complete the second part of that course as the first two years were hellishly difficult!

  367. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 15, 2012 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    This is the skinny from my father, the other Warden of the North (lol) re RSA: JHB is HUGE, takes forever to get from one end to the other, been to every park in RSA and Zimbabwe (Kruger National Park/Forest – that’s not german is it!!), used Rans for currency, loved Flat Top Mountain, Port Elizabeth, Capetown, Indian Ocean and Atlantic coastline, seafood is top shelf really to die for, diving is fantastic, seals are cool, man he went on and on! FYI.

  368. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 16, 2012 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Hahaha that’s funny. I see everyone else has left we can basically have a private conversation on a public forum lol!
    Well your dad is probably thinking about JHB and PTA as one city as the two are so close together they seem like one. THe entire province of Gauteng is basically one city.
    I have no idea from which country the Kruger hails, but know the park is named after an SA lefgend Paul Kruger who is the equivalent of your Jesse James.
    I take it you mean Table Mountain!
    Seafood is awesome but the people in Cape Town are the most arrogant rude pricks south of the eqeautor, people up north are much better. You should join your dad and visit some time.

  369. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 16, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    For the love of the seven I hate lap tops! We are truly of the North but love the coast and water. We are surrounded by lakes Great and small which explains the love of the coast in SA. I read a dirty rumor that you may be studying in the States. Pray what say you on this?

  370. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 17, 2012 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    I love my laptop, sometimes so much it makes my girlfriend nervous.
    The rumour is indeed true, providided everything works out. I will know by the end of the year. Unfortunately I’ll probably only be able to start in August next year, but very much looking forward to it. Who knows maybe I’ll play Rugby for the USA national team.

  371. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 17, 2012 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    I need a regular keyboard because that’s how I was trained. I hate “skittles”. I really bang on the keyboard so laptops make me batsh*t. Prefer to send from the office, bad Stark girl, I know. Well, I would tell your girlfriend that she should be happy she has a man with nimble fingers and hopefully that will stave her off. Do not know rugby. Not a thing here in the North. UofM american football is huge, however. You get into Uof M, you can write your own ticket. My brother is an alumni. Keep House Stark posted.

  372. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 17, 2012 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Rugby is starting to get bigger in the States, but mostly in the south, Ill probably be going to Arkansas State University as the coach and half the team are South African. Much like football, but just much more intense and physical without the protection of plastic pads. I will definetly try football once I get there.
    What exactly is UofM? University of?

  373. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 17, 2012 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    Aye me, I dealing with a heathen! Just kidding your Grace. University of Michigan, the wolverines, go blue, all that. Sorry, UofM is very big in the States. I also have kin in South Carolina and the university there is top notch as well, also North Carolina. One of our process servers played rugby kind of semi-pro and scrambled his brain. His speech is slurred but he is a mountain, huge guy, very imposing, so we like to use him. I asked if he regrets playing and could have his full capacity back and he said yes, but he had an awful lot of fun!

  374. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted August 17, 2012 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Rugby is indeed an unforgiving sport, I listed my injuries on a previous thread yet I count myself fortunate. Just three months ago I got concussion in a way that I was very lucky not to break my neck. One has to be very careful with head injuries.
    Several players have been paralysed by spinal injuries and I myself unfortunately once injured a players neck in such a way that he had to retire immediately. It’s also not unheard of of players dying, but that’s extremely isolated incidents.
    But yeah eager to see what I can do in Football, though I don’t think I’m conditioned for it. In rugby you have to be big strong and fast no matter what position you play. Whether or not you look like a Blocker you still have to be able to run like a running back when the time comes. And there are no breaks like in football, 40 minutes of fast paced hell that moves incredibly quickly, ten minute break followed by another 40 minutes.

  375. Jen@House Stark
    Posted August 18, 2012 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror,

    If you want, you can also message me at the forum site Omar made. Very cool.

  376. eugene
    Posted August 20, 2012 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    Arya serving as Tywin’s cupbearer was fantastic and gave us an insight into Tyin we don’t get in the novels.

    Stannis making Davos his hand on the ships before the invasion was one of the most wonderfully awkward (and so appropriate) scenes in the entire series: “I’ll bet you’re the first crabbers son.”

  377. Michael Post Cronberg
    Posted August 20, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    I think they’ve done a great job. Some things you miss from the books, thinking, how hard could that have been to do. But what disappointed me the most with season two, was that it was to short, there’s so much more going on in ACoK to make it a ten episode season. In a way I was disappointed in that Tyrion didn’t loose half his nose, but I understand why they settled for a scar across the face, I guess it would have been a tough job for the make-up crew on that one :) I think alot of changes work, especially I think “King Joffrey” does a hell of an acting job, you really hate him and want to punch the little brat in the face. I hope season three will be longer. There are more story lines and a lot more going on, and I’d hate the series to start getting sloppy to fit things in.

  378. Mike
    Posted August 27, 2012 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    Not really getting all the criticism of the House of the Undying stuff. Of course we don’t get to see the prophesies; they’d be spoilers. In the book Dany can see characters die but, since she doesn’t recognize them, it’s not a spoiler for the reader. Show it on TV, however, and everyone knows what happens. Heck, showing the prophecies flat-out might spoil some of the books yet to come.

    Either way, the obviously spoiler is the Red Wedding. Which, if you’re running the TV show, you definitely don’t want to spoil. Letting us book-readin’ fanboys a chance to see the prophecies we’ve reread a thousand times is way less important to HBO than making sure that the Red Wedding shocks audiences at home as much as it shocked us when we first read it.

    Even before they aired the episode I figured they couldn’t show the prophecies. Glad they didn’t just skip the whole thing, frankly.

  379. Rems
    Posted August 29, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Elevated INR,

    Glad you clarified that you skip the shaving scene. Otherwise, I totally would have thought you were gay, which is totally a bad thing.

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  383. Hillel
    Posted March 22, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Another difference is that at the end of the 2nd season, daenerys kills xaro but in the 5th book he comes to meeren to negotiate with her

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  1. [...] “If I look back, I am lost.” The huge changes made to the House of the Undying sequence are controversial, but the appearance of Daenerys’s late husband and the child they could have had underline a recurring theme in Dany’s story. To take back her throne she must continue onward, setting aside the past, or she will drown in sorrow. It can certainly be debated that removing the prophecies of the Undying was a mistake. However,  the Drogo and Rhaego portion of the vision was a good flesh-and-blood interpretation of Daenerys seeing the house with the red door in A Clash of Kings‘s Undying chapter. The house with the red door represents her longing for her childhood home, a place of safety and family with Viserys and Ser Willem Darry, their protector. In letting go of Drogo and the baby, the ideal family she craved, Daenerys shows she will not be swayed by dreams that weaken her. It also provided an opportunity for her to say goodbye to the young husband who was taken from her so suddenly.http://winteriscoming.net/2012/08/10-gam e-of-thrones-changes-that-worked/ [...]

  2. [...] topului îl puteți citi aici. « ARTICOLUL [...]


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