Newsweek reviews season 3
By Winter Is Coming on in Reviews.

The first official Game of Thrones Season 3 review is here. Jace Lacob of The Daily Beast/Newsweek, has published his review. Despite some misgivings, he says overall the first four episodes are really strong, especially episodes 3 and 4.

Season 3, which will depict roughly the first half of Martin’s A Storm of Swords, will present Benioff and Weiss with their greatest challenge yet, as both sides attempt to pick up the pieces after the last season’s climactic Battle of the Blackwater. The first four episodes of the new season, provided to critics ahead of its premiere, demonstrate a canny ability to fuse the literary with the visual, resulting in an exhilarating and magnificent thing of beauty, particularly in those scenes that make full use of locations as diverse as Iceland, Croatia, and Morocco.

While Season 3, like the novel on which it is based, takes a little while to get going, when it does pick up speed, it soars—particularly in the sensational third and fourth installments (“Walk of Punishment” and “And Now His Watch Is Ended”), both written by Benioff and Weiss. The first episode back lacks energy and intensity, but provides a necessary foundation off of which to build dozens of separate plots for the scattered characters.

Be sure to check out Jace’s full review for more details, although be aware it does contain minor spoilers.

Winter Is Coming: Considering I had the opposite opinion of the first episode (I found it to be quite thrilling) I really can’t wait to see these other episodes!


493 Comments

  1. AJN
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Hodor?
    Hodor!

  2. Canary
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    A second episode monologue by Catelyn Stark (Michelle Fairley), about her relationship with her late husband’s bastard Jon Snow (Kit Harington), is particularly head-scratching, almost tantamount to outright character assassination.

    Well, this just fills me with preemptive rage and disappointment.

  3. EvilPicnic
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    This is completely off-topic, but the BBC is reporting that the actor who plays the Greatjon had his ear bitten off last night. Life imitating art etc…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-21927889

  4. WoetotheUsurper
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    What plot twist involving Sam do you think the reviewer is referring to?

  5. Matt
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    WoetotheUsurper,

    i would say him not killing the white walker and thus not becoming the Slayer. which sucks because it shows that anyone can be a bad-ass. I guess Bradley wasn’t allowed to steal any bad-ass moments from Jon Snow…

  6. Lex
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Well, from the above quote it sounds very positive.

    Although the stuff about Sam, Catelyn/Jon, and plot twists being spelled out too early is a little worrisome.

  7. Michel
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    And diehard fans of the books may be perturbed by a change to a subplot involving hapless Night’s Watch knight Samwell Tarly (John Bradley). In fact, several shocking revelations within the novels are seemingly spelled out for the viewer rather than left until later to unfurl as major plot twists.

    Wow, I’m nervous right now, what could that be?

    Coldhands in the first episodes? Sam doesn’t kill any White Walker?

  8. Sky Aero
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    What’s the Cat/Jon situation reverring to?

    Has that something to do with the fact that Robb names Jon as his heir?

  9. Carne
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    Slayer won’t happen until episode 7 or 8.

  10. whiteladder
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Sky Aero,

    Yes, apparently Robb names Jon his heir in Episode 2, before they even receive word about Sansa being engaged to Tyrion. Perhaps it’s a reaction to the news of Bran and Rickon’s “deaths” (finally)?

  11. KG
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Sky Aero,

    That’s my bet.

  12. Ser Jean-Ralphio
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    The “plot twists being spelled out too early” worries me a lot, I can already see Littlefinger laying out all of his masterplan to spell off Sansa and kill Joffrey, with the help of the Queen of Thorns, directly to Sansa in the first couple episodes. While Aidan Gillen is a fantastic actor and I like the idea of having more screen time for LF, it sucks if it means making him more obvious and less cunning with his schemes than he is in the books.

  13. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Michelle Fairley said in an interview that her character feels like the Gods are punishing her and implemented that she may feel remorse for the way she treated Jon. I imagine this is what he is referring to.

  14. Watson
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    In the books she told Jon she wished he had fallen instead of Bran. Unless this monologue is more intense than that I don’t really see a problem. Since this obviously takes place after being told two of her sons are dead, a little leeway might be warranted. I think it makes sense to wait and hear what she actually says before getting angry.

  15. Sarah
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    What could Cat say that could possibly be that bad? She already has a spiel in ASOS about that topic — not to mention she was FAR more negative towards Jon in the books than in the show. The only way a monologue about him could amount to character assasination is if they pull a 180 and have her praising him, which seems unlikely. Otherwise they’d only be steering her closer to the way her character was written.

  16. Walter Harrow
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    http://www.hpb.com/heroes/#vote

    Vote for Arya – She is just a few votes behind Hermione Granger :)

  17. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Canary,

    Me too. Two seasons of totally screwing over Catelyn wasn’t enough, they have to finish the job off strong.

  18. giiirge
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Canary: Well, this just fills me with preemptive rage and disappointment.

    Thats pathetic

  19. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    It’s not surprising that what they do to Catelyn is “tantamount to character assassination,” as that’s what they have been doing since the beginning but it still makes me want to throw things at the wall. The way they’re turning everything Cat says and does on its head for the sake of “fixing” something that was only broken in the heads of people who can’t read is really infuriating. I want to be excited about things but they’re fucking this up so badly, I really can’t.

    The fact that it’s not just Cat stans on tumblr complaining is good because it makes us feel less alone but it makes me even more worried because if even other people are noticing it must be really, really bad.

  20. starkfish
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    I, for one, am being tired of being told to ‘wait and see’ in regards to Catelyn’s character – I’ve ‘waited and seen’ for two seasons now, and all B&W have shown is that they don’t understand her character or the entire northern storyline AT ALL (hint: it’s not All About Robb Stark, Actual Fantasy Hero). I’m glad that some publication is acknowledging the total hack job they’ve done on her character (among others, but she’s my favorite, so there we go) and I expect the awfulness to continue in season 3 (hint: Catelyn Stark is about more than her relationship with Jon Snow, it is not the most interesting part of her character).

    The fact that they completely subverted Catelyn’s anti-war agenda into ‘yeah! vengeance and Killing Them All!” means they are completely undermining a MAJOR theme of the books in general (and not just Catelyn’s storyline).

    The other things don’t give me much hope, either – I’m sure Littlefinger will continue to be over-the-top-mustache-twirling-villain-look-here-are-all-my-plots-with-footnotes-lol-mock-u-about-ur-incest because B&W wouldn’t know foreshadowing if it ran up and bit them (actually, they think that everyone needs about that level of obviousness to understand the plot so…). I wouldn’t be surprised if they took away ‘Sam the Slayer’ because we need more room for Jon Snow and Robb Stark to be OMG Total Badasses 5Eva.

    This adaptation has some beautiful settings and costumes and it is EXTREMELY well cast, but the writing, I just can’t get behind. They took everything I enjoyed about the books and made it basic as hell. “Oh, I know all of these common fantasty archetypes and tropes are supposed to be inverted, but wouldn’t it be cool if we played them completely straight instead??” This review, and the cast interviews coming out, give me little hope for season 3. Maybe I’ll tune in for the penultimate episode this season. Maybe.

  21. Ed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Plot Twists being spelled out too early??

    Oh God, I can see it now: Important Character: “Actually, I wonder if Jon Snow is really Ned Stark’s bastard… I bet he’s the child of Rheager and Lyanna! Which would make him Heir to the Throne!!!

  22. gobbo
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    Might happen later in the season. I feel it’s too important to drop completely, just alone for the dragonglass.

  23. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    ikr :(

  24. Aemon
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Amazing how people ignore the praise and focus only on the review’s negative points.

  25. Harry
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    EvilPicnic
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 12:52 pm | Permalink
    This is completely off-topic, but the BBC is reporting that the actor who plays the Greatjon had his ear bitten off last night. Life imitating art etc…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-21927889

    First thought was: wow, Greywind is still pissed? ;-)

  26. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    All this rage, and none of you have even seen the episodes, and don’t exactly know what the reviewer is talking about . Get fucking serious. It’s a show, and a great one at that. If this is how things are headed this season, I’ll be avoiding this place until the season ends, because my tolerance for nerd-rage and stupidity is very low.

  27. Doug
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Sheesh, some of you want to let the episodes air and see for yourselves what goes on with Catelyn before making rash comments and angry proclamations?

  28. Kirsten
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Aemon,

    Yes, it’s amazing that people care about something in the books that they have been fucking up since episode 1. This isn’t about ‘omg deviations from the book!’ It’s about how they’re taking the things that make ASOIAF different and smoothing them over fso they can make something that will be more like everything that came before it.

  29. Kirsten
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Doug,

    I have seen for myself for two whole seasons. It was always worse than I feared.

  30. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Sarah,

    I think this is exactly what happens. She’s not praising him, but I believe she will ask the Gods for forgiveness for the way she treated him. I’m not sure this can be considered character assassination. It’s not much different than her urging Ned to stay in Winterfell and not take the position as Hand, unlike in the books where she urged him to accept the position.

  31. Premislaus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Excuse me, I thought I was on winteriscoming.net, it seems I went on westeros.org by mistake.

  32. Matt N
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    These comments are making me want to stop coming to this website. Over react much?

  33. Brian
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Aemon,

    I know right? Somebody in the comments on that website said that the article was so positive, it came off as a shill piece. Here though,some people are making it sound like Benioff and Weiss are running the show into the ground.

    It sucks that Catelyn’s not getting much to work with, but I was never particularly enamored with her character in the books. Even if she’s completely ruined, the 3000 other interesting characters will likely make up for it. I’m optimistic anyway!

  34. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Combined with the interviews that Michelle Fairley has done recently, especially for westeros.org as well as winteriscoming.net, I am going to bet my money that her monologue about Jon is all about expressing her repentance towards not being a good mother to Jon, as per her wedding vows, and this is why the gods are punishing her. I would bet my horse on it (if I had one). And if that’s true, then it wouldn’t be steering her character closer to the source material. Since Jace Lacob has actually seen the first four episodes, I don’t have the authority to say “it’s probably not character assassination” since I haven’t seen it yet. The clues seem to fit better towards support of his assessment.

    Consider how Fairley has recently said that she would totally try to make amends with Jon Snow at this point if she could, that she spends a lot of time taking the blame for everything that has happened to the Starks, and how Harington has included Catelyn as one of the characters who have betrayed him, along with Ned and Benjen. I believe Dan Weiss has also said that the most interesting thing about Catelyn is her relationship with Jon Snow.

    I respect anyone’s right to remain undecided, but personally I don’t feel very guilty about my own pessimism.

    If y’all don’t want to hang out with people who have different opinions than you, that’s your choice, but unless and until the moderators of this website say “No negativity allowed in the comments”, it can still happen.

  35. Wilhelm
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    http://www.hpb.com/heroes/#vote

    Vote for Arya, Tyrion and Dany

  36. zod
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Did some of you miss that part?

    the third season of HBO’s ‘Game of Thrones’ is the best—and most complex—one we’ve seen yet.

  37. JamesL
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Premislaus,

    No, they are girls from tumblr. People think westeros.org is bad when it comes to negativity about this amazing show but they haven’t read the opinions of the show from some of these female nerds on tumblr.

  38. Mike Chair
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    … Game of Thrones presents a complex morality that is far more nuanced than simply the forces of good vs. evil. Here, good men are killed while the wicked are rewarded; innocence suffers in the face of depravity; and everyone has a personal agenda to advance, a knife hidden behind the most beatific of smiles.

    Well put.

    Margaery’s grandmother, Lady Olenna—played to perfection by Dame Diana Rigg—proves herself a worthy conspirator behind the scenes, her easy nature concealing a sharp wit and cunning ruthlessness. (They don’t call her the Queen of Thorns for nothing.)

    That’s right, “Dame Diana Rigg.” Thank you.

    A second episode monologue by Catelyn Stark … is particularly head-scratching … And diehard fans of the books may be perturbed by a change to a subplot involving … Samwell Tarly … In fact, several shocking revelations within the novels are seemingly spelled out for the viewer rather than left until later to unfurl as major plot twists.

    Catelyn already had some of us scratching our heads at times. I’ll reserve judgment about Samwell. Spelling out “revelations” is something to be expected (cite the Littlefinger “play with her ass” scene) given time constraints.

    But that is part of the beauty and wonder of Game of Thrones: it poses existential questions as it engages in the sort of sex and violence you would expect from a premium cable program.

    And that’s all we ask: the most bang for our buck, yes?

    I’d be wary of any review that didn’t contain some criticism. That’s what they do. Nothing in the review surprised me. ASoS is a great book, GoT is a great show, the creators do things differently from the books, some fans won’t like it, but it amounts to an exercise in exponential badassery nonetheless.

    6 days.

  39. Kirsten
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    You’re adorable.

  40. Turncloak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    I’m thinking the reviewer doesn’t understand Cat’s character. If she says something horrible about Jon Snow than that’s totally within her character as she does the same in the books

  41. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Kirsten,

    Oh no, girls are coming ;)

  42. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    As excited as I am about the start of a new season, the nerd rage in this thread has me dreading the episode recaps.

  43. GeekFurious
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    This is why I avoid fan forums… people always gravitate toward the negative.

    Watch it before you decide how horrible something is. Some of you are such drama queens.

  44. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Perhaps that’s why we ought to consider that it’s not something negative about Jon that the reviewer is referring to.

  45. McActaeon
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    “The first episode back lacks energy and intensity, but provides a necessary foundation off of which to build dozens of separate plots for the scattered characters.”

    Sounds like the first ep. of Seas. 2. Wish they’d just jump in and not worry about reminding us of what happened the last season. There’s only 10 episodes after all.

  46. giiirge
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Mariana:
    It’s not surprising that what they do to Catelyn is “tantamount to character assassination,” as that’s what they have been doing since the beginning but it still makes me want to throw things at the wall. The way they’re turning everything Cat says and does on its head for the sake of “fixing” something that was only broken in the heads of people who can’t read is really infuriating. I want to be excited about things but they’re fucking this up so badly, I really can’t.

    The fact that it’s not just Cat stans on tumblr complaining is good because it makes us feel less alone but it makes me even more worried because if even other people are noticing it must be really, really bad.

    So much fail in one post.

    1. You havent seen the episodes, calm your shit.
    2. You sound like a total dick when you imply that people havent read the series because they cant read. Oh no, someone doesnt want to read a 1000 pages of a book! They must be idiots!
    3. Give a legitimate argument for how theyve fucked up Catelyn, instead of this vague bs.
    4. How have they turned everything she says and does on its head? She acted almost exactly like she does in the books, particularly in season 1, I have no idea what youre going on about.

  47. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    McActaeon,

    I loved the first episode of last season. And considering ASOS is extremely slow the first 20 chapters, it’s not surprising that the first episode or two would be slower as well.

  48. Phalange
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    People whining like little bitches already, I love it!

    If only there was a way to generate power from nerd-rage and the tears of film school drop-outs living in their parents’ basement, we’d have a sustainable source of energy for years.

  49. superdeluxe
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    starkfish:
    This review, and the cast interviews coming out, give me little hope for season 3. Maybe I’ll tune in for the penultimate episode this season. Maybe.

    Peace out, But I’m guessing you will continue to rant and rave through the entire season.

  50. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    We’ve seen two seasons that have set patterns, Mariana never said that people who have never read the books can’t read (what???), and the arguments about Catelyn’s adaptation have been made all over the fandom for three years (although since anyone who makes a negative comment about the show gets chased out of WiCnet, why be surprised if they haven’t passed through frequently around here?).

    Seriously, some people are airing negative opinions about the show. Others are airing negative opinions about others’ opinions. Everyone has a right to their own views, and if they’re attacking your favorite show, that still doesn’t mean they are attacking you. Return the favor and keep the topic on the show instead of others’ opinions, negative or otherwise. Nerdrage isn’t the only measure of embarrassing geeking out, so is freaking out when someone doesn’t love what you love.

  51. superdeluxe
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    zod:
    Did some of you miss that part?

    Talking about the good things is boring, we’d much rather complain. Lets get it correct.

  52. tek
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    I am guessing one of the plot twists being spelled out too early is the Queen of Thorns being a big player and the change to Sam’s character being the he is separated from the nights watch earlier, because of the white walkers I could be wrong though.

  53. giiirge
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:

    Its fine to have an informed opinion, but not to rant and rave about a single vague line in a review, without supporting any of your claims.

  54. Winter Is Coming
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout: Seriously, some people are airing negative opinions about the show. Others are airing negative opinions about others’ opinions. Everyone has a right to their own views, and if they’re attacking your favorite show, that still doesn’t mean they are attacking you. Return the favor and keep the topic on the show instead of others’ opinions, negative or otherwise.

    Well said. Let’s keep this about the show and NOT meta-whining about nerd-rage and Tumblr.

  55. superdeluxe
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    Seriously, some people are airing negative opinions about the show. Others are airing negative opinions about others’ opinions. Everyone has a right to their own views, and if they’re attacking your favorite show, that still doesn’t mean they are attacking you. Return the favor and keep the topic on the show instead of others’ opinions, negative or otherwise.

    This is a open forum, you can’t just post things and not have them discussed. As long as it is done in a respectful manner, I see no issue with it. Calling names though is unwarranted I agree.

    Edit: I’m not trying to play mod here, I just think on a open forum ideas can be discussed/debated

  56. pntrlqst
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Cat saying something positive about Jon Snow is only “character assassination” in the sense that it’s a departure from her book character. In the context of the show, where Cat hasn’t been nearly as vile toward the lad, how exactly would it constitute “character assassination”? His review is meant to be read by book readers AND TV viewers alike, so where’s the relevance in telling the latter her character has been “assassinated” because she says something nice about someone? There is none. That comment (if taken to mean she says something nice about the bastard) doesn’t really have any place in a review about the TV series.

  57. Turri
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Sounds good.

    /zOMG teh DRAMA!11

  58. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Phalange:
    People whining like little bitches already, I love it!

    If only there was a way to generate power from nerd-rage and the tears of film school drop-outs living in their parents’ basement, we’d have a sustainable source of energy for years.

    You are my hero and winner of the internet today.

  59. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    HBO’s treatment of Catelyn and the complete mishandling and misunderstanding of her character is just one aspect of a larger problem in this adaptation of George R R Martin’s novels, but it’s an excellent example of where HBO goes wrong.

    What I mean is that a lot of the novels are about subverting your standard fantasy tropes and offering a different perspective on the usual stories. Catelyn is a great example of that because often the mother of the boy king is merely a background character, but in ASOIAF she is given her own voice. She has her own stories and GRRM takes the time to explore her awkward and new position as mother to a king and how she has difficulty navigating that.

    Furthermore, Catelyn is a voice of peace in the novels. She has seen war before and she encourages Robb to seek peace instead of war because to her, the safety of her family is more important than any military or political victory.

    But HBO completely ignored that and instead seem to be emphasizing something like her relationship with Jon which is really not the most important facet of her character at ALL.

    In doing so, it feels like HBO is caving to the haters who focus on Catelyn’s treatment of Jon and see it as this major defining character trait. It feels like HBO is trying to fix Cat by addressing this issue. But in doing so, they are completely missing the rest of her character and doign her a huge disservice.

  60. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    giiirge,

    1.- Oh wow, you’re so right. I should be really confident in D&D because they have been doing really well by Catelyn thus far.

    2.- I didn’t imply people hadn’t read the books. But yes, you’re right, I was a dick. What I meant to say was that Cat is too complex for some people. You don’t have to like her. Begrudging the fact that she exists and was written in this way is the problem.

    3. and 4.- Oh my God, I thought you were tired of whining but hey, you asked for it. Catelyn has NOT behaved the way she does in the books, starting right from the scene about Bran being ‘too young to see such things’. In the book, she says that about Rickon, who is THREE. Catelyn is not someone who never got used to the North and its ways. She is not someone who would counsel Ned to stay in Winterfell, is not someone who would just look on and wait for rescue when they were attacked on their way to the Vale. Season 2 is an even more egregious fucking matter with them taking away the good advice she gave to Robb and that he didn’t listen to (ie, don’t let Theon go) and her wanting to go home when she always felt in the books that she was more useful by Robb’s side (which was true.) Like, it’s not my fault that you don’t care about her storyline, that’s fine! But I do so I noticed these things. You telling me I’m wrong doesn’t actually make me wrong.

  61. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Unbelievable.

    What is wrong with some of these people?

    You are fixated on a couple things in the review you don’t like and are ready to proclaim utter doom and gloom, all the while conveniently and absurdly failing to notice EVERYTHING ELSE written there like, oh I don’t, this:

    The first four episodes of the new season, provided to critics ahead of its premiere, demonstrate a canny ability to fuse the literary with the visual, resulting in an exhilarating and magnificent thing of beauty

    While Season 3, like the novel on which it is based, takes a little while to get going, when it does pick up speed, it soars—particularly in the sensational third and fourth installments, both written by Benioff and Weiss (those talenteless hacks, right?)

    Far across the sea, Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) looks for an army to return her to her rightful place atop the throne. Her storyline, involving the slave trade, is particularly solid as it allows the headstrong princess the ability to tap into her fortitude and determination, resulting in a return to a stronger and fiercer Daenerys than we’ve seen in a while

    Lady Olenna—played to perfection by Dame Diana Rigg—proves herself a worthy conspirator behind the scenes

    Season 3 of Game of Thrones promises to be its best yet, a triumphant and commanding addition to the series

    But yes, let’s forget everything we just read and continue with endless whining WITHOUT HAVING SEEN a single episode.

  62. MyBFFTheHound
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    One of the plot twists spelled out too early is going to be Arstan never being Arstan, but instead introducing himself as Barristan. Eventhough it’s not terrible, I still think it’s a mistake that takes away a lot of character dynamic between the three.

  63. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    Catelyn hasn’t even mentioned Jon since the scene in Bran’s bedchamber. How has her story focused on her relationship towards Jon?

  64. tek
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    MyBFFTheHound,

    I would agree with you, I am sure they wont hide his identity. It a bit harder to do that in visual media anyway.

  65. caffeinosis
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    It’s good to see someone in the media finally acknowledging the butchery Game of Thrones has done with Catelyn’s character. It’s something that has been happening since day one, so excuse us for not being willing to “wait and see”.

    It’s clear that Benioff and Weiss felt that Catelyn wasn’t humble enough for them in the books and decided to “punish” her and take her down a peg in the show, the way they probably wish had happened in the books.

    In a way, by trying to make the character more “likeable” and less controversial, they are validating the part of the readership that blames Catelyn for every single bad thing that has happened in Westeros and hates her more than Ramsay Bolton and Gregor Clagane. Good job.

  66. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    It’s my hunch that she isn’t saying something positive about Jon so much as repenting about not loving him more. Michelle Fairley has repeated in her pre-season interviews that Catelyn is blaming herself for everything that has happened to her house thus far. She thinks about her promises made regarding him and thinks that failing to uphold them has led to the gods being angry with her (I believe that one is specifically from Elio Garcia’s recent interview with her posted over at westeros.org).

    I believe Jace Lacob was trying to speak to show-only fans as well as book-to-show fans. That means part of the review will inevitably address things that might majorly disappoint some book fans. To many people, the way they handle major character points of a major character are things that should not be changed even in an adaptation. IE, it’s okay to have different hair colors, combine minor characters, and so on, but that doesn’t mean you can change everything. That’s seems like a pretty moderate, middle of the road opinion of adaptations’ obliations towards source material to me, at least in this fandom.

  67. giiirge
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Mariana:
    giiirge,

    Cat actually does tell Robb not to let Theon, if you rewatch the series. “I dont trust Balon Greyjoy because he is not trustworthy”, is actually in the show.

  68. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’m referring to the review which says that Catelyn is going to have a monologue about Jon. They’re adding this non-book monologue re: Jon which I find incredibly unnecessary.

  69. the other guy
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Can’t believe all the whiners commenting. They didn’t “f*ck up” the writing with Catelyn. And even if they had, so what ? Her character only starts to get interesting when she becomes a zombie anyway.
    On topic, can’t wait to see what they have in store. I don’t think they’ll get rid of the Slayer scene, it’s just not happening that soon in the season.

  70. JamesL
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    They haven’t emphasized her relationship with Jon on the show though. I don’t even think it has been brought up once in the show until whatever this monologue is about in S3 episode 2. It also should be pointed out that before people start raging on D&D for there writing of Catelyn that the episode this monologue occurs in was written by Vanessa Taylor.

  71. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    To be honest, other than Catelyn urging Ned to not take the position as hand of the king, I don’t see much difference between her character in the book and the show. What, specifically have people not liked about her portrayal in the first two seasons? What are some of the things you believed were in contrast to the character in the books? Don’t just say she’s not as complex. None of the characters will seem as complex, especially the POV characters, because the show doesn’t have the benefit of internal monologues.

  72. Phalange
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Mariana,

    Except that in the show she DOES council Robb against sending Theon away. So you’re wrong.

  73. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    Mariana:
    giiirge,

    Catelyn has NOT behaved the way she does in the books, starting right from the scene about Bran being ‘too young to see such things’. In the book, she says that about Rickon, who is THREE. Catelyn is not someone who never got used to the North and its ways. She is not someone who would counsel Ned to stay in Winterfell, is not someone who would just look on and wait for rescue when they were attacked on their way to the Vale. Season 2 is an even more egregious fucking matter with them taking away the good advice she gave to Robb and that he didn’t listen to (ie, don’t let Theon go) and her wanting to go home when she always felt in the books that she was more useful by Robb’s side (which was true.)

    1. There is no discernible difference between her saying that about Bran instead of Rickon.

    2. Would you mind explaining what she did on the road to the Vale that was so useful, other than wanting to waste time burying the bodies?

    3. She did tell Robb not to let Theon go. Try to pay attention when watching episode 11.

    4. She did repeatedly think in the books that she wanted to be at home with her family. Not exactly a major change.

    5. What exactly did she do that made her more useful by Robb’s side?

  74. RamsaySnow
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    OMG, book fundamentalist raging around internets like insane Dothraki screamers. It’s not enough to ruin their own enjoyment of the series with irrational behaviour, they attempt to ruin everybody else’s enjoyment too. Something must be done, what if these fundamentalist get hold of weapons of mass destruction, some actions must be taken to stop them now, when it’s not already to late.

    More on topic:
    A plot twist being spelled out (kind of): WARNING contains a spoiler of the end of 1st episode:

    Barristan’s identity is revealed (to Dany and to the audience)

  75. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Writers write the scenes they are given to write- the content is not entirely up to them. But every show’s different, so I don’t know how much say each writer has in dictating tone like that.

    I will say that Michelle Fairley’s comments during this season three lead-up have left me troubled often. It seems we may be getting more of “Catelyn betrayed Robb and it’s all her fault.” And that is pretty weak.

  76. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Probably the biggest one is that instead of Catelyn’s plea for peace at the end of AGOT we got “we will kill them all” in 1×10.

    It’s not that Catelyn isn’t angry. It’s not that Catelyn doesn’t hate the Lannisters.

    But in the book she encourages Robb to sue for peace instead of seeking vengeance because she prioritizes the safety and lives of her children over getting revenge.

  77. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Carne:
    Matt,

    Slayer won’t happen until episode 7 or 8.

    Isn’t episode 4 called “And now his watch has ended”? Which would indicate that Mormont is slain in episode 4, so the Slayer stuff should technically happen around there. Probably episode 5, actually.

  78. Delta1212
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    “But while the lions and wolves continue to fight their never-ending war”

    What?! Never-ending? Does this mean they cut the Red Wedding?! They’ve given up all pretense of following the books if they’re willing to cut something that big.

  79. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Phalange,

    I haven’t rewatched, you might be right. Thanks for implying I’m right about everything else.

  80. ACVG
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    i saw a screening of ep 1 and loved it,
    i found dany’s plot particularly thrilling, so i guess this bodes well for the rest of the episodes :)

  81. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    She is a grieving prisoner. She probably finds out that Bran and Rickon are dead. She is likely just going to say something about the Gods punishing her for her treatment of Jon.

  82. Isabelle
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Here’s a snippet of what Michelle said in her wonderful interview with FaB–

    “And she basically spends some time on her own, and becomes reflective that, utterly, she is the reason that this tragedy is happening to her family.”

    If Catelyn is going to express remorse over something related to Jon, I’m betting that it’s not how she herself treated Jon, but that she played a part in him joining the NW and therefore not being there with her son, at a time when Robb needs men he can trust around him more than ever. She may feel that she is partially at fault for isolating him from a person who had been at his side since babyhood, who could have been a great ally. This is certainly one type of “tragedy,” but I’m just speculating.

    Whatever they choose to do with that particular scene and with her character in general, I can’t wait to see it. And the bloody GIANTS!!!

  83. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Delta1212:
    “But while the lions and wolves continue to fight their never-ending war”

    What?! Never-ending? Does this mean they cut the Red Wedding?! They’ve given up all pretense of following the books if they’re willing to cut something that big.

    lol You must be joking. Either that or you’re an expert at hyperbolic speculation and overreaction. For crying out loud, look at the title of Episode 9.

  84. Andreas
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Seriously, what is HBO doing to Catelyn?

  85. mags giantsbabe
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Does the reviewer mean character assassination for Cat or Jon? And I agree, please see the review in context of tv viewership.

    I doubt we’ll see Sam NOT doing his thing. It’ll probably happen much later in the season though. Stop worrying. And stop projecting on Jon and Robb for everything that goes wrong with the characterization. I personally will be so thankful if Jon DOES practice some more badassery this season. Although the reviewer has absolutely nothing to say about the story beyond the Wall.

    It seems from the review that we are in for four brilliant episodes.

  86. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Isabelle,

    But in the show, Ned and Catelyn don’t have that conversation about Jon and the Night’s Watch, so it wouldn’t really make sense to have that be the reason for her feeling guilty…

  87. dizzy
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    They better not get rid of Sam the Slayer rabble, rabble, rabble ….

  88. Carne
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    dubq,

    Ross Mullan who played the WW in the season 2 finale has Michelle MacLaren credited as director for his season 3 episode(s), and she directed 7 and 8.

    Unless they decided to go with a completely different WW and actor, but I doubt that.

  89. Phalange
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Mariana,

    I didn’t imply anything, but please continue commenting as it gives us all some great insight into just how full of shit you are.

  90. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    1.- Yes, there is.

    2.- She slit some guy’s throat, thereby iirc saving Tyrion’s life. Try to pay attention when rereading that particular chapter.

    3.- Okay, I have been told.

    4. and 5.- She wanted to be at home, she didn’t think she should go home because she was more useful with Robb. Because she gave him useful counsel although it’s true he didn’t listen. It’s funny how Robb admits he should have listened to her when they’re on their way to The Twins but the fandom seems to collectively forget it because they hate her so much.

  91. Hounded
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    starkfish,

    How in seven hells does the show play all those fantasy subversions straight? Its stuck closer to the books than most adaptions.

  92. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    For some of us Catelyn is very interesting before she becomes a zombie. No other viewer has to agree, but that doesn’t mean that the show didn’t owe us a good effort for our favorite character just as much as they owed you a good effort for yours.

    If commenting on a free forum ruins your enjoyment of the show, that’s frankly your problem. People aren’t obligated to agree with you to keep you happy. Believe it or not, I’m not here to make other fans miserable. I don’t really care enough about strangers on the internet to do that. I am here to leave my feedback about a product, as a consumer.

    sunspear, Catelyn also vocally insisted on staying by Robb’s side despite his own objections. In the show, they don’t let her disagree with Robb and insist on staying, presumably because they think people will like her better if she knows that her place is back in the kitchen where she belongs, and if she isn’t upsetting the applecart. In the books, Catelyn thinks about wanting to go home, but insists aloud on not being forced out of Robb’s camp. In the show, Benioff and Weiss totally get rid of the elements that shows her standing up for herself despite popular opinion, and incidentally the elements that have her disagreeing with a popular male character.

    Sorry about the spoiler, I’ll be more careful.

  93. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Phalange,

    Thanks, I will.

  94. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    I just hope the TV show finds a better audience than we, the bookwalkers, obviously are.

    We are truly a pathetic bunch.

  95. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    Okay. I understand this viewpoint. They have made her more hellbent on revenge in the show I suppose. Which is understandable, to be honest. I guess we all have our favorites that we pay closer attention to than others. I have voiced my displeasure of the portrayal of Jon in season 2 and I did not like that Jaime became a kinslayer. But this doesn’t really hinder my enjoyment of the show, nor does it altar my views on the characters in the books. I am able to separate the two.

  96. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    Carne,

    Ahh, I see. Maybe they just moved it around then.. yeah.

  97. KatieJo
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    “Girls from tumblr” and “female nerds” all in one sentence, huh? Thanks for the generalization, bro.

    On topic, I was lucky and got to see the premiere last Thursday. I have no issues with any changes they’ve done so far. Looking at this from the perspective of just the TV show, they did what they had to do to keep the pacing going. I enjoyed the hell out of the premiere, and I’d bet you guys will too.

    In terms of Catelyn, if this is what people have been hypothesizing around here, I don’t see where that is such a bad change. Show!Cat is not Book!Cat. I like both, if I’m honest. I think Michelle Fairley does a brilliant job with her. But I think we have an idea of who the TV version is from episode one. To try and shove this model into the description of the books still, after all this time, is just an exercise in frustration.

  98. Isabelle
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren:

    But in the show, Ned and Catelyn don’t have that conversation about Jon and the Night’s Watch, so it wouldn’t really make sense to have that be the reason for her feeling guilty…

    They implied it. Jon joined the NW because he had no place at Winterfell, and Catelyn was a large part of why he didn’t, perfectly understandable given the society in which they lived, but tragic all the same.

  99. Mari
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    you need to stop ruining Catelyn. She’s such a strong character in the books but in the show she’s just Robb’s annoying mother. And she’s NOT defined by her relations with Jon. please, stop.

  100. Nancy
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Isabelle,

    I agree with this. I cannot see, especially with Catelyn, how she does not become more reflective and begin to wonder how all of this could have been avoided. Does not mean that the show is blaming her, I think they are giving her a very human reaction to the circumstances she finds herself in. And I will wait to see to judge her sentiments about Jon. Either she is counseling Robb on the reasons why Jon should not be his heir, which is totally in the book and in character. Or she feels she is being punished for her treatment of him…maybe she also feels that if Jon were there, Robb wouldn’t be so isolated. He’d have a sounding board like he did with Theon at one time. Robb certainly could not confide in his men like he did with Theon and how he eventually does with Talisa.

  101. charles
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Keep in mind guys, it’s not just “one line in a review”, it’s a consitent issue in the way Cat’s character is witten. Having seen the last two season, we have a right to be worried.

    And i agree with whoever said that what this show lacks is writing. Good writing is the difference between good and great. Just finished watching mad men season 5, and i kept wondering just how much better GOT would be if instead of cat taylor, they had some of the MM writers.

  102. prom000
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    starkfish,

    This! Glad I am Not the only one who feels Like that
    ABOUT SEASON 1 & 2.

  103. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Mari:
    you need to stop ruining Catelyn. She’s such a strong character in the books but in the show she’s just Robb’s annoying mother. And she’s NOTdefined by her relations with Jon. please, stop.

    You, who? You do know that HBO doesn’t run this blog, right?

  104. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    re: the letting Theo go thing.

    There is a difference between the show and the book versions. In the show, Catelyn simply doesn’t trust Balon, but the book makes it clear she is talking about Theon’s value as a political hostage. She says they will have the Greyjoys if they keep Theon as hostage still, so they don’t need to send Theon off to treat with his father.
    The show watered down her smart reasoning.

  105. tysnow
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Premislaus,

    Excuse me, I thought I was on winteriscoming.net, it seems I went on westeros.org by mistake

    Ha ha, I also quickly verified I was really on WiC, especially after the Starkfish assault on the show. Furthermore I’m not sure if Mr. Lacob properly (grammatically) explained his character assassination opinion. To which character is he targeting the quote; Cat, Jon perhaps even Ned?
    Considering the former, could the monologue be so vile in contempt for Jon, the viewers loose any sympathy for Cat, or could it be so persuasive about attributes she noticed of Jon that it convinces casual viewers Jon really is a bastard. Then again she could be assailing her former husband in this scene, thereby knocking noble Ned down a few notches. My head is hurting from attempts to decipher the meaning behind this quote.

  106. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    It’s astounding that so many people who comment on these blog posts cannot grasp the simple fact that the SHOW =/= the BOOKS. They’re telling the same OVERALL story, yes, but not everything is going to be exactly the same – and that includes character motivations and portrayals, etc.

  107. Isabelle
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Nancy:

    I agree with this.I cannot see, especially with Catelyn, how she does not become more reflective and begin to wonder how all of this could have been avoided.Does not mean that the show is blaming her, I think they are giving her a very human reaction to the circumstances she finds herself in.And I will wait to see to judge her sentiments about Jon. Either she is counseling Robb on the reasons why Jon should not be his heir, which is totally in the book and in character.Or she feels she is being punished for her treatment of him…maybe she also feels that if Jon were there, Robb wouldn’t be so isolated.He’d have a sounding board like he did with Theon at one time.Robb certainly could not confide in his men like he did with Theon and how he eventually does with Talisa.

    Precisely. If Jon had been there, Catelyn might reason, Robb wouldn’t have begun to rely increasingly on Theon, perhaps turning to Theon in an attempt to replicate or find a placeholder for his close bond with Jon in Jon’s absence. This could definitely cross her mind as she mourns Bran and Rickon, as Theon is so entwined with that storyline.

  108. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    KatieJo,

    For me the TV show changes Cat’s character in a way that fits in to irritating patterns of how female characters are allowed to be on television. They might both be likable, but the way they went from one to the other bothers me. Frankly, show!Littlefinger is stupider than book!Littlefinger, show!Sam is funnier than book!Sam, etc etc. But the ways they are changed don’t suggest to me that the show thinks that the characters as they were in the books needed to be put in their place and humbled for all the awful things they said and did.

    However for Catelyn, that’s how it feels for those of us who are irritated by what we’ve been seeing since season 1. Show!Catelyn is a nice woman, and Michelle Fairley is a great actor. But book!Catelyn shook things up about pop culture’s grasp of female characters much more, and the ways they changed her betray a disappointing lack of understanding, much less a desire to understand.

    It’s nothing a show-only fan (or any fan) has to be angry about (feelings are free choices as far as I’m concerned). But some of us are angry and I think it’s valid, and we want to communicate it to HBO (not ruin everyone else’s good time, as some here seem to think is our raison d’etre).

  109. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    People realize that the show is not the book, but if your favorite character were changed rather a lot, I think you would care and want to see a better adaptation of them instead. Other people are permitted to care about characters they love.

    I don’t see anyone here demanding a rigid adaptation of the books, to be 100% the same as the text, so “purist” accusations are pointless.

    From the very first episode, we’ve seen many people not happy with the changes in Catelyn, so it’s not like this is an uncommon opinion.

  110. Kirsten
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    dubq,

    The fact has been grasped. Some changes make us angry because the reasoning behind them is not sound.

  111. Coltaine777
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    After reading that review I am extremely nervous about season 3 …but then I remember he also says overall it is a fantastic start to the season and he does heap praise specifically onto eps 3,4 …We just have to wait to actually see the eps first and make up our minds on the job D/D are doing then…I think WINTER needs to review EP 2 PRONTO and add his 2cents…

  112. Nearly Headless Ned.
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Horrible news. Actor Clive Mantle (The Great John) has suffered a very serious assault in Newcastle.

    http://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2013/03/ladykillers-actor-clive-mantle-attacked-while-on-tour-in-newcastle/

  113. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Kirsten:
    dubq,

    The fact has been grasped. Some changes make us angry because the reasoning behind them is not sound.

    Call me when you get an interview with the showrunners so you can find out if their reasoning is sound or not, or whether you’re just making assumptive statements. :)

  114. Mariana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    KatieJo,

    For me the TV show changes Cat’s character in a way that fits in to irritating patterns of how female characters are allowed to be on television. They might both be likable, but the way they went from one to the other bothers me.Frankly, show!Littlefinger isstupider than book!Littlefinger, show!Sam is funnier than book!Sam, etc etc. But the ways they are changed don’t suggest to me that the show thinks that the characters as they were in the books needed to be put in their place and humbled for all the awful things they said and did.

    However for Catelyn, that’s how it feels for those of us who are irritated by what we’ve been seeing since season 1. Show!Catelyn is a nice woman, and Michelle Fairley is a great actor. But book!Catelyn shook things up about pop culture’s grasp of female characters much more, and the ways they changed her betray a disappointing lack of understanding, much less a desire to understand.

    It’s nothing a show-only fan (or any fan) has to be angry about (feelings are free choices as far as I’m concerned). But some of us are angry and I think it’s valid, and we want to communicate it to HBO (not ruin everyone else’s good time, as some here seem to think is our raison d’etre).

    A+ comment, would read again.

  115. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    It’s amazing how much frustration has come out of a very positive review. People are projecting their thoughts of Catelyn in the show to those who haven’t read the books. I believe non-book readers do view Catelyn as a very strong character who has given Robb good advice. Sure, she has made mistakes, just like she does in the books, but so has everyone else. They don’t view her as “Robb’s annoying mother”, at least no more than people who have read the books do.

  116. Kirsten
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    dubq,

    I have been reading vitriol in book!fandom against Cat for a very, very long time. The showrunners are taking all those same ideas and “fixing” her according to them. I don’t need to read anyone’s mind to see that, it’s on my screen.

  117. Turri
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    I would guess having Catelyn say some things about Jon is the equivalent of having Cersei say “I wonder if this is the price for what we’ve done”. A moment of doubt, guilt, weariness and weakness to make her more understandable and easier to like, for a general audience that can’t look inside her head. All build-up to her season’s ending, ultimately.

    I’d be okay with that. We’ll see.

  118. tysnow
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    dizzy,

    Unfortunately book purists are gonna freak out because Sam apparently is saved by Ghost in lieu of the book version of events. I definitely will be avoiding fan sites for a day or two after that and a few other adaption changes I have heard about become apparent on March 31st. It is not gonna be pretty, but hopefully civil and cordial at least.

  119. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Nancy,

    Whether or not the show blames her for this will rest on how well they balance her self-blame out with a counter-view of who is to blame. If she blames herself, and we also see Robb blaming himself, and we see Sansa blaming, well, Joff, maybe someone assures her it isn’t all her fault and points out why, then it’ll be clear that the show is presenting a complex viewpoint. I’ll be eager to see if that plays out over the season or if there is a disproportionate focus on Catelyn’s wrongs.

    The reason some of us are inclined to believe negatively is how in season two, they felt it necessary to add the scene where Robb gets to berate his mother for disappointing him and acting irresponsibly. This is obviously very different from the books, where they both reacted emotionally in response to the news of Bran and Rickon, and both forgave each other instantly. One wonders what went on in B&W’s head when they felt they had to change that. They just really needed a scene showing that Catelyn was being put in her place and would not be allowed to get away with what she did? That’s what makes some of us prickly, because she’s not the only one who makes mistakes but the show gives visual catharsis to those who really hyperfocus on her mistakes relative to others’.

    I think it’s as valid to be optimistic about the unknown as it is to be pessimistic, but when we finally see what happens, all I ask is that we can be honest about whether or not Cat was handled well, not just because we want to say positive things because it makes us feel good, but because it’s a fair assessment.

  120. Isabelle
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    dubq:
    It’s astounding that so many people who comment on these blog posts cannot grasp the simple fact that the SHOW =/= the BOOKS. They’re telling the same OVERALL story, yes, but not everything is going to be exactly the same – and that includes character motivations and portrayals, etc.

    All very, very true. But I’d argue that there are a few things that can be extrapolated about the relationships and motivations of some of the characters beyond what is simply stated on screen, and not simply because it was in the books and therefore “must be there somewhere”. Richard Madden was interviewed once about how he thought the separation from Jon affected Robb, and he stated that Robb must have felt a bit lost without Jon as they’d been so close for so many years, though there wasn’t room in his few scenes to expound on this.

  121. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Mariana,

    1. Really? There is a character defining difference in her not wanting her 10 year old son to witness a beheading instead of a three-year old son? Weak.

    2. She slits one guys throat after Tyrion had already knocked him off balance. Not exactly being super proactive.

    4. Fine. I can see that being somewhat of a change. Although I would point out she wanted to take care of her father more than she wanted to be at Robb’s side. But really, she wasn’t a great advisor to Robb. She advised him not to send Theon to the Iron Islands, true, but that was included in the show already so it doesn’t really apply here. Other than that, she wanted him to ally with Renly (when all of of Robb’s Bannerman save the Glover’s were already doing that), she wanted him to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya (a terrible idea), and she wanted him to make peace (also arguably a terrible idea, and also pretty hypocritical of her).

  122. Benoit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Mariana,

    Book Cat and Serie Cat are quite different, we agree. But please, I am sure other people than me prefer the Serie Cat to the Book Cat. It is exactly how I feel about other characters that sound by far more human and fleshly in the serie than in the book: Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, Shae, Stannis, Margaery, Varys, and the list goes on… They have made a fantastic work workin on every character personnality, even if some of the protrayals seems wrong to me: Littlefinger above all. Book Cat doesn’t seem to have any purpose but to live through the actions of her son. She has no real empathy for anyone. I want her to be frail, to show some remorse about the past! There will be time for another Cat to raise! Michelle Fariley brought so more into this character: she is a mother, a trully Tully! She wants her family first, then duty, and then honour. I wanted her so bad to consider that she failed with Jon Snow, that she didn’t trust her husband trully, that she failed on Ned Stark heirloom after his death. I praise the writers for their work, as they are the ones that brought everything into an HBO program. They don’t want to screw the storytelling, anyone can see it. If you really cannot stand the adaptation, go back to the books. We are talking about different formats, we are talking about real humans, actors who bring something to their character. And to finish, again, Michelle Fairley does an amazing job so far, on screen and behind the scenes. Thank you so much!

  123. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    For people who haven’t seen the season, i.e: everyone, maybe take a deep breath and watch before casting judgement based on one persons opinion. Yes, you and he and I are all entitled to our opinions. Some people love Cat, some people loathe her. Personally I am not in either camp. Her decisions don’t seem either particularly insane or particularly intelligent to me. I understand the arguments on both sides, and we all have favorite characters.

    But maybe you could actually watch it before completely raging?

  124. dizzy
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Agreed, well said. There’s a bit of an overreaction going on here.

  125. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    In the DVD commentary they said they didn’t have Cat learn of Bran and Rickon’s death because they didn’t want it to seem like every time the audience sees Catelyn in S2 she is receiving terrible news. Not saying I agreed with the decision, but at least they had a reason, I guess.

  126. voiceareason
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Kirsten:
    dubq,

    I have been reading vitriol in book!fandom against Cat for a very, very long time. The showrunners are taking all those same ideas and “fixing” her according to them. I don’t need to read anyone’s mind to see that, it’s on my screen.

    I agree that a lot of people in the book fandom hate Cat, but I think its been less so on the show. Do you really think that the changes made in show make her less likable though? If anything, the showrunners have made her more likeable, in that she is less harsh to Jon, hit Jaime with a rock, wanted Ned to refuse Robert which was a good idea, and wanted revenge after she learnt of Ned’s death, not peace. Its not as clearcut as you make it seem.

  127. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    And yea, some people will want to crucify me for this unpopular opinion, but I think Michelle Fairley made me actually like Cat more in the show than I do in the books. So you know, different strokes, people.

  128. barak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Kirsten,

    Or rather, you’re projecting your own thoughts and anxieties on the show and the showrunners.

  129. Rygar
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    I’d still bang her.

  130. Michelle Yvette Peeples
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    EvilPicnic,

    Oh, man. How bizarre. Thankfully, they were able to reattach but still scary.

  131. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    voiceareason: I agree that a lot of people in the book fandom hate Cat, but I think its been less so on the show.Do you really think that the changes made in show make her less likable though? If anything, the showrunners have made her more likeable, in that she is less harsh to Jon, hit Jaime with a rock, wanted Ned to refuse Robert which was a good idea, and wanted revenge after she learnt of Ned’s death, not peace. Its not as clearcut as you make it seem.

    Let’s also not forget that GRRM vets these changes as well. People want to complain about “OMG HBO CHANGES” should also direct their internet rage at the author of the books who is also a Co-Executive Producer.

  132. Mr. Wu
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    Holy crap. If this explosion of bitterness and hostility and doom-and-gloom is how you guys react to a 90% positive review, I don’t want to be around to see the fallout to an actual negative review. It might melt down the internet.

  133. Cary Storm
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me Sane,

    This. Yes. I’m happy with Cat’s portrayal in the series. It will only make her change into unCat more … stark.

  134. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Wu:
    Holy crap. If this explosion of bitterness and hostility and doom-and-gloom is how you guys react to a 90% positive review, I don’t want to be around to see the fallout to an actual negative review. It might melt down the internet.

    Srs bsns.

  135. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    A rather balanced perspective in this Newsweek review. Usually ,there is a
    writer that is either interested only in the pretty boys or fluff stuff contrast
    to another hoping to capitalize on recent hype ( – or + ). This one starts
    out with a clear perspective of the facts thus far, with insightful phrases
    ( for me ) that stuck out ” canny ability to fuse the literary with the visual …
    exhilarating, magnificent results…..Blackwater…….” ( also this )………….
    S3 first episode lacks ……. but makes up for……with…..”

    Just asking, was there an additional review at ” the Daily Beast ” ?

    Nevermind, I found it …….

  136. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    No, all of Robb’s bannermen were not already doing that. Some wanted to ally with Renly, some Stannis, but then when Greatjon’s idea of an independent kingdom came up, they ALL agreed to that. After that point, it is ONLY Catelyn and Brynden we see discussing the necessity of doing homage to Renly (it’s Catelyns idea, and Brynden is the one who confirms its wisdom). In the show, this idea is taken from Cat and given to Robb.

    The way Catelyn traded Jaime for the girls was poorly done, but the idea itself was not poor, it was Robb himself who admitted in ASOS he should have listened to her and done exactly that when she said so back at the end of the first book.

    As for peace being a bad idea, why, exactly? The northmen took on a war against a far more experienced general and flaunted the authority of the legitimate heir of the king they themselves vowed fealty t0 and even helped put on the throne (Robert). The only reason Robb doesn’t want peace is because he’s too angry about Ned’s death. Contrast that to Doran, who refuses to go to war about Elia’s death despite popular disapproval, because he is wise enough to know that anger alone doesn’t rule the day.

  137. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Why do you people care so much if some of us are passionately critical about the show? Live and let live, jesus. Nobody is coming in here belittling your enthusiasm for it.

    You guys seem to talk as much about other fans of the show as you do about the show itself.

  138. barak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Wu,

    These are the moments that leave “outsiders” scratching their head at fandom, or back slowly away. Being fond of characters is one thing but what I see here is some people being overly invested in characters and their presentation, to the point where seem to take what happens to her personally.

    sadtrout:
    Why do you people care so much if some of us are passionately critical about the show? Live and let live, jesus. Nobody is coming in here belittling your enthusiasm for it.

    Oh no, you’re just coming here to rage about how the show is Ruined Forever and how the showrunners are monsters. I see no reason whatsoever why that would chafe anyone’s nerves, no.

  139. voiceareason
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Michelle Yvette Peeples:
    EvilPicnic,

    Oh, man. How bizarre.Thankfully, they were able to reattach but still scary.

    Again offtopic, but does anyone know if Clive Mantle is returning?

  140. Rygar
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Wow, I realize now that my previous response is glib, crude, and sexist. Let me revise: I would take her out to dinner first and then have intercourse with her after I gave her a back rub.

  141. caffeinosis
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    voiceareason,

    Well, some of us don’t feel that she needed to be more likeable. Some of us simply wanted to see the character portrayed the same way that she was in the books. How does valuing revenge over peace makes her more likeable, anyway? If anything, making her character all about revenge completely undermines the contrast between who Catelyn used to be and Lady Stoneheart.

  142. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    barak,

    Did I say the show is ruined?

    Anywhere?

    Did I say the showrunners are monsters? Where, show me.

    And if you guys can’t handle people having different opinions than you, then what you want out of WiCnet is an echo chamber of like-minded people.

    Is that what you want, a circle-jerking echo chamber of like-minded people?

  143. Rygar
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    We are discussng Ros, correct?

  144. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    caffeinosis,

    I would also argue that it’s a big theme of the books that revenge does not pay off and is not the most important thing in life, and Catelyn was the earliest character to understand that. It does not make me like her more to see her wisdom taken away from her. The fact that she became more vengeful did not make her more strong, it just made her more violent, and those two thing are not synonyms simply because violence is coded “masculine” in pop culture. Her wisdom was her strength.

    I wonder if anyone ever wondered if Don Draper or Walter White needed to be more likable to be allowed on television as lead characters.

  145. JamesL
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Robb does not forgive her right away. In the books he feels betrayed by her and locks her away in her fathers chambers in Catelyns very first chapter in ASOS. Even Edmure berates her for freeing Jaime

  146. LordStarkington
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    (1) The overall review is very, very positive; mostly in line with what I expect to see starting this Sunday

    (2a) The misgivings about plot points/twists being revealed is definitely in the “wait and see” category for me

    (2b) As someone who has spent more than my fair share of time defending Catelyn (who’s probably my favorite POV character) from the books, the bit about her/Jon has me feeling a bit nervous.

    (TLDR): Looks good, a couple things make me nervous, but very excited.

  147. Phalange
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    As others have mentioned, all these points become moot when Catelyn winds up doing nothing except gurgling out her neck-hole and killing Freys.

  148. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    I tend to view how the characters are portrayed by how similarly or differently show only viewers think of the characters as opposed to how book fans feel about them. If I were to make a list of the biggest difference in the two fandoms’ opinions of each character, Catelyn would be very low on that list.

  149. Mike Chair
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    It’s interesting that neither Book Cat nor TV Cat is included in the HBO Store’s Game of Thrones Pop! Figurines (12 in all, 2nd edition, set of 6, price $54.99, marked down from $59.94, ships April 30, also sold separately at $9.99 apiece). I guess they figured she’s just not that important. BTW, the White Walker figurine is boss.

  150. voiceareason
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    caffeinosis:
    voiceareason,

    Well, some of us don’t feel that she needed to be more likeable.Some of us simply wanted to see the character portrayed the same way that she was in the books. How does valuing revenge over peace makes her more likeable, anyway? If anything, making her character all about revenge completely undermines the contrast between who Catelyn used to be and Lady Stoneheart.

    I thought it would be better to have a different interpretation, or version of Cat, rather than just have a carbon copy of what you’ve read, but I guess not. Valuing revenge over peace when your husband has just been killed is admirable, but its not that likable, and I think more people can relate to her reaction in the series.

  151. Rygar
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    *sweeping bow*

  152. Phalange
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Doesn’t her increased “vengefulness” in the show sort of naturally lead into her state of mind as Lady Stoneheart?

  153. just a nobody
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Look, you shouldn’t be shocked that people are taken aback at the vehemence of your argument when like five of you joined a Tumblr call to arms to post here. It’s kinda like, whoa, ya’ll chill the fuck down.

    You certainly have a point that showCat is a watered down version of bookCat, but what are you hoping to gain? The show is written and filmed, and your favorite character has been changed, and she will not come back after this season. D&D will not suddenly hear your call to arms and change the way their show- a super successful show- is made. You gotta put on the shades and deal with it.

  154. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    No, Robb was not even in Riverrun when Catelyn was locked away. It was Edmure who placed her under house arrest. Catelyn herself suggested putting her in chains, but Utheredes Wayn and Maester Vyman (IIRC) couldn’t bring themselves to do that and let her stay with her father instead.

    The very moment Robb and Catelyn meet, Catelyn says “They will have told you what I did” and Robb says he understands that she did it for love. Moments later Catelyn realizes he says this because has just come home after committing his own egregious folly for love.

    This is all in the first chapter of ASOS. It’s not a spoiler for the show however since they moved the corresponding material into season two.

  155. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    1. The key phrase in your first paragraph is ‘we see’. Most of Robb’s bannermen were calling for an alliance for Renly before is crowning, and it’s doubtful that they all gave up on it. Allying with Renly is not Catelyn’s idea. And Brynden is needed to ‘confirm the wisdom’ of trying to make an alliance with the counntry’s biggest military? You make it sound like this was some genius plan no one else could have thought of.

    2. Robb was being a whiny teenager, as he is wont to do in the books. We all know that trading the realms best sword and a competent commander for two girls was a bad plan, Robb’s desperate pining after a hypothetical scenario notwithstanding. He wanted to make the deal so they could marry Sansa to Loras, do you really think that would have worked?

    3. It was a bad idea to make a peace because A. his bannermen would never agree, B. When she first suggests it in AGoT, they were winning.

  156. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    just a nobody,

    Wow, really? A Tumblr ‘call to arms’? That is rather pathetic.

  157. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    just a nobody,

    No, I won’t chill. I am dealing with it the way I want to, by having a discussion about it here letting them know I’m disappointed. You don’t have to worry about how I deal with my disappointment, I doubt it has a huge bearing on your personal life.

    I remain surprised that people take negative criticisms of a show so personally. Sorry? But when you’re an adult you let people disagree with you. I don’t see any compelling reason that I should make an allowance for it. It’s not adult, it’s not mature, it’s not reasonable. I have not made a single personal attack against anyone here, by no logical measure do I deserve the same.

  158. Jen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    So Winter is Coming … how on earth have you not watched the remaining 3 episodes you have in your hands? I just need to know when Theon shows up!!

  159. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    If people want to share their opinions, great! The more debate, the more fun it is.

    But please be respectful of each other and refrain from name-calling.

    dubq,

    Actually no, GRRM doesn’t get a final say in changes made. He’s discussed this before. He can make recommendations and share his opinions, but the co-executive producer title isn’t something where he’d have that power or be present for most of filming.

  160. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Well stated, sadtrout, Tully bannerman. I add to your point about book Robb
    yes, he was angry and set about for revenge, but he never lost perspective
    of the danger facing his sisters. He and his mother exacerbated that knowledge
    with the grief of murdered Bran and Rickon. In all this battle fatigue and a
    committed but loose cadre took it’s toll.

    I’m not sure what the HBO production has in mind for exploiting Robb’s
    consideration for naming Jon a true heir and in succession for Winterfell,
    technically it’s true, but the the Robb story has been botched so far (as an
    angry boy that falls in love and loses all perspective ). I wonder what feather
    has to be pulled from what hat to make sense of future scenes ( S3) .

    Oh well, that’s why all we can do at this point is speculate, then wait for
    the actual episode to air. The HBO version will still command my attention,
    looking forward to the interesting changes.

  161. Dondarriyronwood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    I like Catelyn in the show more than I did in the books.

    /twist

  162. JamesL
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    Apparently he is not in the first 4 episodes

  163. Lars
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    The Firewall & Iceberg podcast (from Hitfix.com) just put up their newest episode, where they review/discuss the start of season 3:

    http://www.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/listen-firewall-iceberg-podcast-no-174

  164. Rygar
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    I’d rather be watching The Wire or Deadwood.

  165. Carne
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    Episode 3 going by this stuntmans’s credits: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1752567/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

  166. voiceareason
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    just a nobody,

    The problem is that you’ve started this extensive criticism of the show based on this one, rather ambiguous and vague part of the review. At least wait until you’ve actually seen the episode.

  167. KG
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Canary,

    Why rage? It’s IN THE BOOK when she tells Robb why legitimizing him is a bad, bad, bad idea.

  168. Jen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Carne,

    Oh sweet … I bet that’s a failed escape attempt if they need a stunt double.

  169. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    I have an idea for a new episode recap thread. We already have ‘Book Reader Episode Recaps’ and ‘New Viewer Episode Recaps’. Why not have an ‘Unhappy Book Reader’ Recap”?

  170. JamesL
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Robb does learn to forgive his mother and understand why she did what she did this season though. I remember reading that in an interview with either Richard Madden or Michelle Fairley.

  171. CurbYourEnthusiasm
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Memles just posted elsewhere, “Regarding Catelyn: Yeah, Jace is crazy for that one. I didn’t even blink during the scene in question.”

    So basically any of you bleeding paragraphs of sand and tears into this comment section should re-evaluate just how seriously you are taking this adaptation

    relax and watch the season and formulate your own opinions instead of jumping off a cliff the second a reviewer has something questionable to say about one of a multitude of storylines

  172. KG
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Kirsten,

    Then don’t watch. Simple.

  173. Mimsy
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    I kind of hope the tv series takes over the books to come. It’s quite nice not knowing what’s to come in future episodes. I think it would drive some people bonkers.

  174. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Point taken, I’d actually forgotten the full scope of those book pages…. thanks.

  175. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    1. You’re making an assumption based on things not even on the page. Allying with Renly as an alliance of kings is very much Catelyn’s idea. Sure someone else could’ve come up with it, sure, but so what? It was Catelyn who actually did, thus it remains an example of an advice that she gave to Robb. It could’ve plausibly been someone else’s, but in the way the story was written, it was hers.

    2. The fact is both Jaime Lannister and Sansa and Arya are valuable people to have. The question is in the long run who is more important? The entire story itself is a testament to how dangerous it is for Sansa and Arya to be unaccounted for. It has allowed people to lay claims to the northern throne through their captivity of them — and in Arya’s case, it doesn’t even have to be the real her. It’s THAT easy to make a grab for the throne once everyone knows that the King in the North does not have Sansa and Arya himself. Tywin Lannister himself explains to Tyrion how immensely valuable Sansa Stark is. And an alliance with Highgarden? The incredibly rich, incredibly populous Highgarden, able to boast a huge army as well as a fleet and lots of funding? That would have been an incredible stroke of luck.

    3A) The bannermen are not the king, the king is. Even Lysa Tully can successfully refuse her bannermen’s desire for vengeance. They never once defected from her because of it. B) All the more reason to consider it a remarkably prescient piece of advice.

  176. just a nobody
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    You’ve missed my point. I’m not worried about how you deal with your disappointment, nor did I make any personal attack (???). I’m questioning the pack nature of your side of the argument lending itself to making people defensive. You keep lashing out about “personal attacks” but your tone is off-putting.

  177. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    voiceareason: The problem is that you’ve started this extensive criticism of the show based on this one, rather ambiguous and vague part of the review. At least wait until you’ve actually seen the episode.

    Man, I’ve seen twenty episodes at this point! This is what I get told every single season, and every single season my early misgivings prove to be right.

    I am not going into this cold, I have seen two seasons worth of B&W’s attitude toward Cat. I’ve heard early interviews and reviews from people who have seen it. There is no reason I cannot reasonably vocalize my pessimism, unless the point is that only positive comments are allowed here because it makes people happy.

    KG: nobody needs anyone else’s advice whether or not to watch. It’s everyone’s own choice and own business.

  178. caffeinosis
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    voiceareason,

    Characterization is important. The characters are what drive a good story. Expecting the essence of a character to be the same in an adaption doesn’t make you a purist and people have every right to be upset over huge changes like that. If people were complaining about superficial things (like a character’s appearance not matching the book description) I’d agree with your ‘carbon copy” argument, but it’s not what’s happening here.

  179. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Also I just want to point out that emphasizing Catelyn’s vengeance in show actually does a disservice to the Stoneheart storyline because really, Stoneheart should be a contrast to Catelyn. Stoneheart is a Catelyn who has been stripped of reason and humanity.

  180. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    just a nobody,

    You’re worried that people came over to air their opinions in an organized fashion? Why? What that has actually been said has overstepped the bounds of civil adult behavior?

    What about my tone is offputting? The fact that I refuse to bow to the “oh no the negative nancies are here” comments and stop explaining my viewpoint?

  181. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Whoa, quite the response to a positive but balanced review.

    I am de-lurking here to pose a few questions.

    First let me say, that anyone who believes that this show has scored a 100% is delusional and a bit too forgiving. The other side of the coin is that to say that this show is ruined or a travesty or anything of that sort is presumptuous, pompous and really serves no constructive purpose.

    Let’s lay down some facts first:

    1.) We can not deny that the show is successful. Whatever your personal opinion is regarding it’s fidelity to the source material, one can not say that this show is a failure. It has received many Awards and Nominations. It has integrated itself into pop-culture on a level that LOST achieved. It has drawn many many many people to the books that would have never read them before hand. These are all tantamount successes and as a TV show, GOT must get the credit it deserves.

    2.) The show will NOT, can NOT “ruin” the books. The books are what they are and they will always be there. No comic book, video game, or TV series can ever change how we experience the books because they are separate entities. It shouldn’t have to be stated again, but it seems like it will never be said enough: The books and the series are not the same, and never will be.

    3.) The writers and creators of Game of Thrones obviously have a deep passion for the source material or they wouldn’t have dedicated the last 7 years of their lives trying to bring an extremely risky show to life. From time to time we need to step back and realize the amount of work that goes into this project and at least give some credit for that.

    4.) We all must concede as well that this show is NOT perfect and not just from an adaptation standpoint. They have dropped the ball on a few threads due to some poor storyline management and other outside factors. It is OK to acknowledge these missteps and critique them. This is a sign of balanced critical thinking. But there is a difference between pointing out mistakes and the vitrol of saying that the show is a failure as a result.

    Ok.. all that being said.

    I have a question for the more angry/hateful fans out there.

    It has been two seasons now. I think this is a fair amount of time to decide whether or not you are on board with D&D’s interpretation of ASOIAF. If you truly believe that this series is not doing the books justice, or ruining characters, or just plain poorly written, then why still watch? Why not step away and let the books be your only source for GRRM’s beautiful constructed world? Why the urge to continue to check every single news story about the the show for new things that the creators have totally screwed up? It seems very counter-productive and destructive to anyone who does enjoy the show.

    I love the books. I think they are far superior than the show. I do enjoy the show very much, however I am not one to just endlessly praise them and not discuss the things they could have done better.

    But if I or anyone were to truly think that the show as a whole was irredeemable, then WHY continue to watch?

  182. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I have an idea for a new episode recap thread. We already have ‘Book Reader EpisodeRecaps’ and ‘New Viewer EpisodeRecaps’. Why not have an ‘Unhappy Book Reader’ Recap”?

    LMAO, there have been several infrequent visitors that fit this category. I believe
    these folk were actually shocked with GRRM stating recently that he’s prioritizing
    his time towards writing TWOW over current projects. The general disrespect for
    the book series, in it’s progression , not to mention the author, has often sounded
    off on this WiC board. “Naysayers” category, indeed. We need more willing to
    participate in the breadth of knowledge of the subject, which includes a broad
    range of respectful dialogue in scope with the ASOIAF series and it’s author.
    Believe me, there are worst stories out there, even from authors awarded for their
    efforts.

  183. voiceareason
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout: Man, I’ve seen twenty episodes at this point! This is what I get told every single season, and every single season my early misgivings prove to be right.

    I am not going into this cold, I have seen two seasons worth of B&W’s attitude toward Cat. I’ve heard early interviews and reviews from people who have seen it. There is no reason I cannot reasonably vocalize my pessimism, unless the point is that only positive comments are allowed here because it makes people happy.

    Guess what: nobody needs anyone else’s advice whether or not to watch. It’s everyone’s own choice and own business.

    Not that Im doubting your prophetic abilities, but your still going off this tiny bit of info, that is very vague. This is the first review to have mentioned this monologue by Cat.
    Guess What: It is your choice whether to watch or not, you have the right. Just as it is the right of people on this forum to call out your arguments for being based on very little, or being hyperbolic.

  184. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Yes you’re right, but it wouldn’t be a balanced representation of their dynamic if we don’t have a scene where Catelyn forgives Robb for marrying Talisa and thus disrespecting the Freys. Let’s see if we get that.

  185. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    voiceareason,

    No this is not the first article referencing this monologue. I have named above other interviews that reference it.

  186. matt
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:01 pm | Permalink
  187. Meg
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Lacob always gushes in his reviews on anything ASOIAF, and I think his writing reads like the ravings of a 1st year journalism student. He praised ADWD to high heaven before it was released. All you get from him is inflated expectations.

  188. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    and regarding Catelyn:

    I wouldn’t say she is all vengeance in the show.. She did free Jaime Lannister for christsakes!

    I’m not sure what the concern about her hatred of Jon being the only character defining trait is. She only mentions Jon once in the whole TV series, and its in the first episode!!

    The rest of her TV story arc has been the story of a mother who is the wrong place and wrong time to do anything effectual.

    Now to be fair, they have stripped her political savvy from the TV version and that was a disappointment as a book reader. But I don’t think she has been reduced to just a token mother character either. All my non-reader friends who watch the show still have a lot of admiration for Catelyn’s character, even though some of her decisions have pissed them off.

  189. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    To be honest, I just don’t get the question. Why do you care if we continue to watch? Maybe some people are masochists, maybe some people are deluded into thinking that B&W will give an honest answer about their choices. But what is it to you? You can lead a perfectly happy fan life leaving those people to do their own thing, no? After all they’re not coming after you to change your choices.

  190. Rogue Agent
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren:
    Also I just want to point out that emphasizing Catelyn’s vengeance in show actually does a disservice to the Stoneheart storyline because really, Stoneheart should be a contrast to Catelyn. Stoneheart is a Catelyn who has been stripped of reason and humanity.

    Maybe in the show Stoneheart will be an extreme version of Catelyn, as opposed to what it’s like in the books. I think it work really well for TV Cat and doesn’t have to be a contrast like in the books. I can see why you wouldn’t like it, though.

  191. Winterlarks
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    IKR?!

    I think about that disc you have, WiC… reminds me of my childhood when mother would announce that her Christmas shopping was done…in July…have you really not seen the rest of the episodes?

  192. s
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    voiceareason,

    No this is not the first article referencing this monologue. I have named above other interviews that reference it.

    No you didnt, you just said that youd read interviews about it, you named nothing.

  193. HellFell
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Book masturbators can continue to cum on books. Just don’t touch the show with filthy hands

  194. Valaquen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    I had a look here at the first shot released from the show in 2010, and fans were complaining about the texture of the snow. This Cat-controversy isn’t putting a dent in my enthusiasm. Some folk are fundamentalists, in that they’ll vilify a any change or deviation without taking into consideration the wildly different format that the show comes in. This seems like such a small ‘change’ than, say, those wrought in season 2, like Talisa, for example…

  195. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    1. No, I’m making an assumption about things that ARE on the page. Catelyn was not the first or the only person to propose an alliance with Renly.

    2. It would be an incredible stroke of luck that we all know never would have happened. Mace Tyrell was already allied with Renly, and Renly wasn’t prepared to give up the North and Riverlands. Even after Renly died, they would never have tried to rule half the kingdom when they could rule the whole thing. Jaime Lannister was worth 10x more as a fighter than Sansa was as a bargaining chip.

    3. A. His bannermen were already deserting him. Remember Karstark? He doesn’t have as much control over his men as other lords do. B) Um, no. You don’t just let people get away with murdering your family when you have every expectation of being able to get them justice.

  196. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    s,

    I referenced the winteriscoming.net interview and the westeros.org interview.

    Valaqueen, believe it or not we’re not here to dent your enthusiasm. We want to give our feedback about the show in a public forum.

  197. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Wow. There is a lot of rage towards critical opinions of the show on here. There is a reason why the show hasn’t received a lot of critical accolades and awards. The show has some of the poorest writing of any HBO program in recent memory. It tells us rather than shows us and lacks commitment to slow evolving long term story lines that ultimately give events like the Red Wedding real narrative and emotional meaning. Yes the actors are often great and so is the set and costume design but the writing is quite often lacking. In comparison to the books the show lacks subtlety (Littlefinger is case and point) and often falls back on the boring fantasy tropes that Martin worked so hard to subvert. Robb was never a pov character in the books and Martin choose Cat as the narrator over her son. If you hate her fine. However she was a significant and complex character in the books and you can’t reasonably expect all readers to applaud her characterization on the show.

  198. Winter Is Coming
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Winterlarks:
    Jen,

    IKR?!

    I think about that disc you have, WiC… reminds me of my childhood when mother would announce that her Christmas shopping was done…in July…have you really not seen the rest of the episodes?

    Just watched the first episode so far. Will watch the second episode this week, the third next, and so on. That way I will only be one week ahead.

  199. dubq
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    Valaqueen, believe it or not we’re not here to dent your enthusiasm. We want to give our feedback about the show in a public forum.

    I thought you guys had a dedicated “Tumblr Call to Arms” for that…

  200. Valaquen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Valaqueen

    I don’t know if you made a mistake or are being slyly cheeky.

    believe it or not we’re not here to dent your enthusiasm. We want to give our feedback about the show in a public forum.

    I’m not addressing you, I’m addressing the onslaught of “they’ve ruined the show/warped the books/f**ked the character” comments that appear without further clarification or argument. S’far as I’ve seen you have explained yourself well; don’t get paranoid now ;)

  201. kindly man
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    WiC,
    Please watch and review the eps you have. We need some one we trust to give us their view. (spoiler free please)

    I think it goes without saying that we always support the bottom

  202. Visenya
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Hm. Got to agree with the disappointment about Cat’s treatment on the TV series. Not sure how saying so is equivalent to bashing the show or “ruining” people’s enjoyment of it.

    I thought the show took some of Cat’s defining moments and twisted them into something they weren’t. Did this really make her more likable to show viewers? I can’t say. But those changes certainly trivialized the Catelyn Stark character and pushed her into the “mother” trope the books tried to deconstruct.

    Sure, the show isn’t supposed to be the same as the books but recreating a trope the books set out to challenge suggests that either:
    a) HBO (partially) failed to understand the series they’re adapting.
    b) HBO/Benioff and Weiss/whoever understood the trope-inverting nature of Cat’s character perfectly but rejected it in favor of the shallow and non-threatening version we see on the show. That makes me very uncomfortable.

    If you like Cat the way she is on the show, that’s cool. But it doesn’t mean that portrayal is better.

    PS. I love Michelle Fairley so none of this is directed at her acting.

  203. s
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl:
    Wow. There is a lot of rage towards critical opinions of the show on here. There is a reason why the show hasn’t received a lot of critical accolades and awards. The show has some of the poorest writing of any HBO program in recent memory. It tells us rather than shows us and lacks commitment to slow evolving long term story lines that ultimately give events like the Red Wedding real narrative and emotional meaning. Yes the actors are often great and so is the set and costume design but the writing is quite often lacking. In comparison to the books the show lacks subtlety (Littlefinger is case and point) and often falls back on the boringfantasy tropes that Martin worked so hard to subvert. Robb was never a pov character in the books and Martin choose Cat as the narrator over her son. If you hate her fine. However she was a significant and complex character in the books and you can’t reasonably expect all readers to applaud her characterization on the show.

    I cant tell if this is satire, or actual criticism. the username is whiningfangirl. Not a lot of critical acclaim? This show has a shit ton (just look here, 88 on metacritichttp://www.metacritic.com/tv/game-of-thrones/season-2) , and it has won loads of awards.

  204. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    whiningfangirl:
    There is a reason why the show hasn’t received a lot of critical accolades and awards.

    [Laughs at hilarious level of denial of book purist]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Game_of_Thrones

  205. Jen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    You have the strongest willpower in the world – I would have sat down and not gotten up for 4 hours ;D

  206. Rachel
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Let me just say I stand in support of Cat. Her character is bomb, stop trying to fix her. Just let her shine as she does in the books. Just because the neckbeards hate her doesn’t mean the wider audience of the show needs a revision. She is awesome.

  207. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    I guess I am just curious as to why you are watching it.

    I’m not saying you SHOULDN’T. But I know I stop investing my time in things that I don’t like. So I am curious in what you are hoping to achieve continuing to watch something that you think isn’t good.

    I really am not coming from a smarmy place here, I am genuinely curious.

    EDIT: FWIW, I wasn’t specifically aiming this at you or anyone. Just trying to understand this group of fans.

  208. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl:
    Wow. There is a lot of rage towards critical opinions of the show on here. There is a reason why the show hasn’t received a lot of critical accolades and awards. The show has some of the poorest writing of any HBO program in recent memory. It tells us rather than shows us and lacks commitment to slow evolving long term story lines that ultimately give events like the Red Wedding real narrative and emotional meaning. Yes the actors are often great and so is the set and costume design but the writing is quite often lacking. In comparison to the books the show lacks subtlety (Littlefinger is case and point) and often falls back on the boringfantasy tropes that Martin worked so hard to subvert. Robb was never a pov character in the books and Martin choose Cat as the narrator over her son. If you hate her fine. However she was a significant and complex character in the books and you can’t reasonably expect all readers to applaud her characterization on the show.

    Say what? The show has been nominated for ‘ Best Drama Series’ at the Emmys in each of the first two seasons. It lead all shows with 6 Emmy awards in 2012. It has been named to countless ‘Best Of’ lists the past two years. Season 1 has a 79% rating on metacritic and season 2 an 88% rating. This lack of critical and award show success is only in your mind. The show has received universal praise.

  209. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    1. If they were on the page you wouldn’t have to make an assumption. Robb’s men did not suggest making an ALLIANCE with Renly, they suggested swearing FEALTY to Renly. An alliance is a relationship between peers. Fealty is a relationship between superiors and subservients. That alliance is Catelyn’s suggestion. When she brings it to Robb’s attention, she’s the one Robb sends to make it happen (even though she thinks he should send a more seasoned diplomat).

    2. These are not apparent from the Stark camp’s point of view. What Robb is realizing is that (A) Sansa and Arya are valuable marriage alliance broker pieces to have in his camp and (B) dangerous broker pieces to let fall into others’ hands. Even if he could not make an alliance with the Tyrells work, he could have prevented the Lannisters from laying claim to Winterfell, as well as the Boltons through Arya.

    3A) House Karstark defected when Robb killed Rickard Karstark, not when Jaime was released. 3B) Um, sometimes you do when the lives of all your smallfolk and bannermen depend on your choices. Sometimes the sanctity of the wellbeing of the living is more important than vengeance for the dead. You can’t read Ellaria’s speech in ADWD or see what happens to the poor Cassells or read how the smallfolk don’t care a shit about the high lords’ game of thrones and not see the point Martin is trying to make there.

  210. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    HellFell,

    Thanks for your insightful and measured comment!

  211. Zack
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    I’m always half tempted (and especially with this show where the first two or so episodes of a season are never the highlights) to wait an extra few weeks so I can watch them back to back with stronger material.

    Perhaps this year I’ll try it and see how it affects the experience.

  212. Tumblefell
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Visenya:
    Hm. Got to agree with the disappointment about Cat’s treatment on the TV series. Not sure how saying so is equivalent to bashing the show or “ruining” people’s enjoyment of it.

    Catelyn (and all characters) shouldn’t exist solely to be “likable,” but rather they should be interesting. Book!Cat was definitely more interesting and complex than show!Cat, and I thought the show took some of her defining moments and twisted them into something they weren’t. Did this really make her more likable to show viewers? I can’t say. But those changes certainly trivialized the Catelyn Stark character and pushed her into the “mother” trope the books tried to deconstruct.

    Sure, the show isn’t supposed to be the same as the books but recreating a trope the books set out to challenge suggests that either
    a) HBO (partially) failed to understand the series they’re adapting.
    b) HBO/Benioff and Weiss/whoever understood the books and their trope-inverting nature of Cat’s character perfectly but rejected it in favor of the shallow and non-threatening version we see on the show…

    This! I’ve been incapable of articulating almost these exact thoughts today so thank you for expressing what I could not…

  213. Winterlarks
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    Oh yes, meeee too, all in one sitting. Kudos to you, WiC. Look forward to your impressions as well.

  214. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    I can’t let go of the show because I had such huge hopes for it. I’ve loved these books, and Catelyn in particular, since I was 17 years old (I love other characters too, but it’s Catelyn who gets such a hard time from both fandom and from, in my POV, the show runners too). If WiCnet’s community thinks I’m a delusional pathetic sap for it, I’ll live.

    dubq,

    We came here to talk about the show, not to make anyone feel bad. Lord. How much clearer does that need to be.

  215. prom000
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    So fare the argument over the changes to Cat have been very civil No? Except that people call those arguing that the show does not good on Cat purist, when clearly they only point out that much of what makes Cat so interesting has been taken away from her. The Question is why.

  216. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    You came here to voice your displeasure over a vague review. Would you and your Tumblr friends have done this had you not read the words ‘character assassination’ in this review? Yes or No?

    BTW, another reviewer who has seen the episode and monologue in question said that they did not understand what Jace Lacob was so worked up about.

  217. John
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Do people not realize that this is an adaptation of ASOIAF? The intro even says “based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.” They’re not going to go page-by-page and match it up frame-by-frame. Plus, the show has yet to air. Both the show and the book are beyond enjoyable. If you’re dissatisfied with the show, then go back and read the book (it’s the original, after all).

  218. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    It won an emmy for “title design” and Dinklages acting. The majority of nominations come from the stunts, costuming and makeup. These hardly add up to outstanding writing overall. Other emmy wins are in the categories of sound editing, visual effects etc. I haven’t voiced any problems with the technical aspects of the show. Compare Game of Thrones to Six Feet Under, The Sopranos, and The Wire and their is no contest in terms of the quality of writing and overall effectiveness of character development and consistency.

  219. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    If WiCnet’s community thinks I’m a delusional pathetic sap for it, I’ll live.

    See now, sadtrout that is an unfair statement to make. I came from a rational and fair position to talk openly with you about your relationship to this show, and you reduce my comments to name-calling, which I never did.

    I don’t think your a pathetic sap. In fact I was asking for your honest insight on what drives those who are unsatisfied with the show to continue gobbling up every bit of minutiae related to it.

  220. Tumblefell
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    a. Let’s leave Tumblr out of it, shall we… though I’d welcome anyone joining us there. It’s a good time!
    b. “Character Assassination” is an inflammatory term. Catelyn is polarizing character. Fire + Gunpowder = Boom
    c. Can anyone link to Memles’ (Miles McNutt) comment?

  221. Johnny3toes
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Hi all, I don’t post a lot but this tread has me understanding why some folks hate fan sites. First off in a perfect Nerd-verse a book series like ASoIaF would be translated to the screen exactly the way it was written and with every character and their arcs intact. Well this isn’t the Nerd-verse and our beloved ASoIaF series will never be filmed as we think it “should” be done but in my opinion it is being done as best as it “could” be done.
    From the interviews I have seen of the people involved in production, writing and design of the show most if not all of them are very passionate about keeping the core vision that GRRM has laid out intact. So far it seems that they have kept pretty close to the books with some changes in the length of some characters story lines and consolidation of several characters into one to make everything that “needs” to be told in a season gets told.
    Well I hope everyone can enjoy what we have. SciFi network could have gotten their hands on it and then we would have been really crying eh?

  222. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    prom000,

    It’s been civil, for the most part. But it is also the ONLY thing being talked about in a review that was extremely positive. It’s great to create a discussion, but lets talk about some of the positives too.

  223. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    No, the word “character assassination” is not why we’re here. It’s the way the story has played out over the two past seasons, plus a whole bevy of comments

    On WinterisComing.net it is not comfortable to have an ongoing critical non-positive discussion of the show’s handling of certain things. As you can see in this thread, you say something that’s not positive here and you have to deal with a lot of social pressure to shut up and go away. But elsewhere, (yes on Tumblr, also as I understand it on Westeros.org, also personal blogs, perhaps Livejournal), this discussion about how Cat has been handled has been a consistent dialogue since the first episode. It is NOT based solely on one comment in one review.

    Alright, cool, someone disagrees with Jace Lacob. I am still dealing with this pattern of changes to Catelyn’s character that’s already in the history books, still dealing with how Michelle Fairley has emphasized how her character undergoes so much self-blame, while not hearing anything about any blame Robb must shoulder, still dealing with the fact that a lot of people don’t even like or pay attention to Catelyn Stark in the first place, so how would they know what’s a fair treatment of her character? etc. We’ll all see when the show comes out. But I did not come here to say the show has done XYZ in season three. I’m saying that I am pessimistic about season three because of XYZ reasons.

  224. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    I’m sorry, I didn’t mean you. It was unfair to talk “through” you to others and not talk just to you. I apologize for that.

  225. b1narys3rf
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I’d like to get away from the book purist critiques and ask a simple question.

    Why is it that almost every TV show which involves a continuing story, GoT included, has its weakest episodes as its first of each season?

    By far my least fave episodes of GoT are the pilot and So2E01, “The North Remembers.” Now for the very beginning I understand, there were stylistic things to work out, huge amounts of exposition etc., but it was less forgivable for S02E01, although I didn’t hate that episode (or the pilot). It just wasn’t up to par.

    But again I hear this early criticism of So3E01,”Valar Dohaeris.” Really, they shouldn’t be spending ANY time getting people re-oriented or explaining anything but the current scene and event. Yes, it’s true, there is some of that at the beginning of each book but they’re BOOKS. We have recap featurettes and so on – this is really confounding to me.

    Anyway, once momentum is regained (usually in episode 2 onward) I’m sure I’ll be much happier. And maybe of all the #01 episodes this one will be my favorite.

  226. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    The show was nominated for best drama series in both seasons. That means the Emmys, the most prestigious award show for TV, believes that it was one of the 5 best dramas on TV. The critics universally praise the show. Your opinion of the show not being critically successful is flat out wrong.

  227. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    To be clear, I don’t think anyone should just shut up and go away.

    But there IS a difference between critically analyzing something, and an unrelenting stream of nothing but negativity. I am not saying that you are doing this. In fact you have composed well thought out arguements for your positions. But there are some that have done nothing but speak out on how horrible this show is. I just believe THAT sort of unrelenting vitrol only serves to waste time.

    But I love BALANCED discussions about this show, because it isn’t perfect and we do need people such as yourself to help remove the rose-colored glasses from time to time.

  228. SergioCQH
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl:
    sunspear,

    It won an emmy for “title design” and Dinklages acting. The majority of nominations come from the stunts, costuming and makeup. These hardly add up to outstanding writing overall. Other emmy wins are in the categories of sound editing, visual effects etc. I haven’t voiced any problems with the technical aspects of the show.Compare Game of Thrones to Six Feet Under, The Sopranos, and The Wire and their is no contest in terms of the quality of writing and overall effectiveness of character development and consistency.

    You are willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts your opinion, and end up contradicting yourself. Neither Six Feet Under nor The Wire ever won the Emmy for Best Drama. Hell, The Wire was never even nominated. According to you, they are great shows, but also according to you, they are crap.

  229. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    b1narys3rf,
    Its all important for us to take the glasses off when it comes to the books too.

    The first episodes of all three seasons have been week, because all three books start of pretty slow.

    I don’t expect that we will be seeing a lot of re-cap as you suggest, but more setting up as in the books.

    The first twenty chapters of ASoS are not very stormy at all. First episodes are there to set up the arcs for the rest of the season.

  230. Winterfell
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Canary,
    I know exactly what you mean…I am literally dreading it. Why did the show runners have to fuck up Catelyn so bad??? Sometimes I wonder if they even read the same books we did

  231. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap, “The Wire” which was one of the best tv shows that ever aired (it is known!) was never nominated for an Emmy for outstanding drama series while “Desperate Housewives” consistently was during the period “The Wire” aired, so I’m leery of using those nominations as my benchmark of quality TV!

    With that said, to say that “Game of Thrones” is the worst-written series that’s aired on HBO in recent memory is to completely ignore the existence of “True Blood” (which also deviates like mad from its source material!) (No offense to “True Blood” fans, though, this is obviously just my own opinion!)

    The first time I watch a “Game of Thrones” episode, I tend to focus on all the ways in which it’s different from the books (I can’t help it!) and then I watch a second time, already knowing where it deviates from the source, and with a couple of exceptions, it works for me on its own terms. And some of the characters/arcs actually work better on the TV show for me, namely Theon’s and Stannis’s arcs in season 2, which I found boring or irritating when I read the book. (And anyone who thinks TV Theon’s arc was poorly written is viewing the show in a way that is so alien to me that I don’t think we actually have any room for discussion.)

    HOWEVER … Catelyn is one of the characters most different from her book form (even if arguably, Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin are also quite different from their book versions – Cersei is less one-dimensionally Evil Queen, Tyrion is less morally ambiguous and Tywin is much more avuncular) and it’s only natural to care the most about changes to the characters we love the most, isn’t it? (I grumble about things that I think are “wrong” about TV Jaime and TV Brienne, but I’m lucky in that I still enjoy the show and look forward to seeing where they go with this season.)

  232. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    1. So now we’re parsing the difference between an alliance and fealty to give Catelyn credit? Really? Both things involve working together for a common goal. They are not particularly different.

    2. Sansa is fourth in the line of succession. Her claim is irrelevant if Bran and Rickon weren’t considered dead, Robb lived, or Robb had a son. She and Arya are, simply put, not as valuable as bargaining chips as Jaime Lannister is as a source of morale, a fighter, and a commander. Everyone in the books understands this, Cat’s motherly bias, and Robb’s wishful thinking notwithstanding.

    3. Robb is Doran Martell. He had every expectation of winning the war, so it was a good idea to try. Do really think letting Joffrey on the Throne would result in peace the same way Doran letting Robert would have?

  233. SergioCQH
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    If D&D can make Season 3 more exciting than the first 2, then they are great at their job, because the first half of ASoS is the slowest part in any of the first 3 books. Almost all of the great moments of the third book happen starting with and after the RW.

  234. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    SergioCQH,

    Thank you for saving me the time of writing the same thing.

  235. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Your point is understood. Now what? Do you want to organize a petition to remove D&D as showrunners for the show? Can we somehow delay season 3 so they can go back and make Cat more like the Cat from the books?

    I get it. Cat is one of your favorite characters and you are extra sensitive to how she is portrayed in the show. I love Jon. I believe his character has been handled far worse in the show than Catelyn. There is a larger disparity between how show only viewers view Jon compared to book fans than there is with Catelyn. I voiced my displeasure with how Jon was handled throughout S2. So don’t feel that I don’t understand where you are coming from.

  236. Anguissette1979
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Cary Storm:
    Shock Me Sane,

    It will only make her change into unCat more … stark.

    I see what you did there.

  237. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    Oh yes, because the Emmys mean so much. They really gave The Wire the recognition it deserved… Highest rated drama on Imdb after The Wire (both 9,4), with the most votes. 88 % on Metacritic. And, from what I’ve seen, among the most anticipated shows of the year. Really a failure indeed…

  238. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    I love how so many people think that comparing this show to its source material counts as “constructive criticism”. It isn’t. The two are not one and the same. As Catelyn is presented in the show, I don’t think it’s valid to characterize her as “weak” or “just a mother”. She has, in many ways, become a better character for me. She may have lost some of her agency, but what of it? I wouldn’t say Catelyn is a more ‘simple’ character – or even all that different – because of these changes, over all.

    What’s stupid is the fact that people think there is only one way to interpret every character from the books, when that obviously isn’t the case. What’s even stupider is that anyone would expect a television show to have the depth of a series of 1,000 page novels.

    I love criticism, in that good criticism also highlights where something is succeeding in addition to pointing out where things could stand to be improved. Most of the criticism I read regarding the show has more to do with how it is being adapted than what is actually being presented, and that’s no longer interesting to me (and barely was to begin with). Don’t like the show? Great, find somewhere other than a FAN SITE to bitch about it, I’d say. Have a good critique, that doesn’t involve the books and utilizes other great television shows to use as a comparison? Great! Sounds much more appropriate and interesting than hearing the incessant whining about “changes”.

    The ASoI&F fan-base truly encapsulates both the best and the worst of fandom. What’ll be great is when D&D get to AFfC & ADwD, and all of these ‘hardcore’ book fans start complaining that the changes (which will most definitely be coming) aren’t how they would have done it… Because truly, I’ve seen very few fans who don’t agree that some drastic changes have to be made after ASoS is finished, which is ultimately very hypocritical of them.

  239. Michel
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    I’m very ansious to see UnCat and Coldhands.. Or they are gonna be bizarre or they are gonna be awesone..the guys of the makeup will need to do the best job in their lifes

  240. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    I only brought up the Emmy’s because the poster I was responding to brought up awards show success. I don’t believe any awards show is a true measuring stick for how good a show is.

  241. Lycanthropist
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Alright so maybe we put this topic to rest and talk about some of the other things mentioned in the OP.

    Like Dany’s storyline starting to regain some traction

    And Jon’s storyline as well.

    There is a still a lot to look forward to..

  242. zod
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    lol.

    In other news:

    Fans of Martin’s novel can also expect some great scenes with Olenna that were added from the books, with the Queen of Thorns matching wits with Tywin Lannister (Charles Dance) and Varys (Conleth Hill).

    Seems like a great idea to me. ;)

  243. The hounds pup
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Everyone calm down!

    Stop writing your lengthy posts!

    Season 3 hasn’t even aired and we are judging it on one persons opinion,

    Never trust a critic, they say stupid stuff so people will read their reviews.

  244. kindly man
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    The review was overall positive. This discusion is deviating from that topic. Dont forget that this serie is a worldwide succes. And that for a fantasy genre. There are a few shows that can top that.
    It is also a show that made people pick up a book and read (like me).
    We should review the show by it’s standard. Not by it source material (even through its hard to do)

  245. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga: Don’t like the show? Great, find somewhere other than a FAN SITE to bitch about it, I’d say.

    They’re more than welcome to share their opinion, even if it isn’t always positive. They are fans of the show; they don’t have to love every change or aspect of GoT.

  246. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Out of the nearly 250 comments, this is the best one.

    I don’t like Dany, but I’m still looking forward to her arc this season. Barristan (and Daario maybe) will be interesting, and of course the Unsullied army. And Missandei isn’t hard to look at. About Jon, yes, will be very interesting. Mance wasn’t how I pictured him, but I’m sure he’ll do a good job… And the lord’s kiss of course!

  247. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap, gotcha! I’m forever bitter about “The Wire” and its multiple Emmy snubs so I pay them no heed basically ever :D

  248. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    Trueblood doesn’t try to be a brilliant epic though. In a recent interview people behind GOT compared it to Shakespeare which is blatantly ridiculous. Trueblood is a schlocky absurd sort of horror-comedy and it knows it. I just don’t understand how anyone could consider GOT to objectively be a very well written series? I understand if it is someone’s favourite despite its flaws.

  249. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    1. Somehow I doubt you’d be above parsing a semantic difference if it let you get in the last word. But anyway, sometimes semantic differences deserve to be parsed. When Robb is a lord deciding which king to follow, cooperative effort is not one option of many, it’s the only option. Before he becomes king, cooperative effort is a given because he is expected to fall in line with some other claimant challenging Joffrey. After he becomes king, there is no such expectations. All lords are expected to swear to this king or that, that’s all a matter of course. The only thing Robb’s men were debated was which one, but the fact that they would be cooperating with one king or other was taken for granted as part of the feudal system. It was nobody’s lightbulb idea, just simple procedure. Once Robb becomes a king, however, he has the option of going it all alone, because he himself is the king he’s sworn to. An alliance is in no way orthodox procedure, though it is not so rare or unusual either. It is Catelyn who sees the chance for an alliance and also the geographical realities that would make it an immediate advantage on the field. It’s her idea.

    2. Just look how easily Sansa and Arya have become important wildcards in the northern inheritance issue. It’s in the actual story itself, the entire goings-on post-RW have shown how foolish it is to take them for granted. Sometimes the point in ASOIAF is that the reigning culture of values is wrong. Including their devaluing of female human beings. The very plot serves as an indictment against Robb’s assessment that the girls are not worth enough. Or maybe Tyrion marrying Sansa and Roose marrying fake!Arya are good things for the North?

    3. I’m assuming you mean Robb isn’t Doran Martell. Robb may have had every expectation of winning the war, but that doesn’t make them realistic. The American south thought they’d win the American civil war early on too; any good student of history should know that it’s a long and multivariable game and not to get too cocky early on. Robb was young, so he didn’t, it’s understandable, but that doesn’t make it any less wise to cut your losses early on. Stannis and Renly would likely not have been at peace, but the north, sure, it obviously would have been at peace if it didn’t continue to wage war against the crown. Besides, you seem to be saying that simply because a war can be won, it should be won. As if we mustn’t leave any unwinnable war unfought. Wars don’t have to be fought just because they can be fought (and won), there’s no imperative for them as an ends unto themselves.

  250. Man from the north
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    First, great site WiC.

    Secondly, I read the book and follow the series.
    I do not understand when people will realize that you can not
    transfer the books of the TV and expect everything to be equal.

    Everyone of us has a vision in your head when you read the book
    and people ask you to accept that the books and TV are two different media.

    Enjoy the books and the series and do not be so biting just about every detail.

    Nice greetings from Croatian.

  251. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Yago,

    Popular doesn’t mean it is necessarily good. The Following has a high rating on imdb and have you ever watched an episode? It’s terrible. I’m not saying that the show is a failure but some of the choices made for the show are quite awful in my opinion (Talisa, Catelyn being pro-war, Daenerys in season two, excess focus on Robb, Littlefinger in general, Halfhand downgrade etc). I like aspects of the show but the writing isn’t outstanding.

  252. zod
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl: The Following has a high rating on imdb

    8.1 for a TV show isn’t considered a high rating on IMDb. Especially with only 20K votes.

  253. barak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Man from the north,

    Ssssh, don’t try to bring common sense into this! We have overinvested fans on the loose.

  254. B.M.
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    For those who don’t understand why Cat’s characterization matters so much to so many people, I would like to say this: It’s not just about nitpicking Cat’s dialogue. What’s being critiqued here is not so much a lack of purism with regards to detail; it’s about thematic alteration.

    I think most criticisms of the show stem from the fact that, for a book series that explicitly about reversing and knocking down traditional tropes, the show has devoted a lot of time to upholding those same tropes.

    Examples: While the book fairly quickly turns Arya’s plot into a not-at-all glamorous child soldier narrative, show!Arya continues to indulge the plucky-badass-tomboy “most girls are stupid, I am the sword-wielding exception” trope.

    Book!Robb was a fifteen year old whose crown was too heavy for his head, who got caught between conflicting understandings of honor – show!Robb is a manchild who’s fast on his way to fulfilling the immature Shakespearean love cliche.

    Show!Littlefinger can’t resist telling you all about his genius plan with a dashingly sinister twirl of his mustache.

    And Cat? Instead of acting as the voice of reason and transcending the vengeful impulse, show!Cat is either an uppity woman being put back in her place for daring to think she knows best, or she’s weepy and over-emotional and she must apologize.

    ASOIAF, the book series, is about complicating the characters you think you know. Game of Thrones, the show, has instead chosen to affirm that each character is exactly who you think they are. Why? To make the characters more likable? Not to me, and evidently not to a lot of posters here. I like them better when they’re carrying the thematic spirit of the series rather than negating it. It’s not about nitpicky book purism, it’s about the intent of the series being so far from the intent of the books. It makes me really, really skeptical that they can ever overcome their love of death/blood/sex as shock factor in time to relay the series’ critical messages about war and victimization.

    tldr; Cat matters because she’s a symptom of a greater interpretative problem.

  255. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    I’m not sure what is difficult to understand about a larger focus on Robb and the change to Talisa/Jeyne to make her more likeable. They need a television audience to actually be invested in events soon to come, and if all you had ever done was heard about them you wouldn’t care.

    I respect that you dislike the showrunners, that’s fine. Those changes just don’t baffle me in the least. Even the name change to remove the useless Westerling subplot doesn’t bother me because it holds no ramifications to the greater story. There are changes they’ve made I’m not in love with, but from a TV perspective I think those were good ones.

  256. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    What I personally want, realistically or otherwise, is an explanation from B&W. Why, when they read the Catelyn in Martin’s books, did they decide that the Catelyn in their show would be better. That’s what I want to know. I actually do know it’s too late to change anything now, but you know what? Back when it wasn’t too late, people were still saying “Oh you haven’t seen enough to judge yet” and also “If you can’t say something nice go somewhere else and just don’t say anything here at all.” Maybe back then there could’ve been something to do about it, if you think that B&W would listen to fan complaints. But back then the argument was “Don’t criticize until you’ve seen” and now it’s “Don’t criticize because it’s too late”? There’s a kind of double bind there. I tried to play along with the former and, really, isn’t the fact that some people here found us “haters”‘ appearance here surprising a testament to the fact that we’ve usually left y’all alone?

    I’m sure a lot of people can understand somewhat where I’m coming from, but have chosen to deal with their disappointments differently. I’m fine with that, that’s your (the generalized “your”) choice. But when someone posts positive comments here, do they have a 12 step agenda? No, they’re not expected to need to, because positive comments can be the ends unto themselves. I personally actually don’t like to be overly negative just because life is short etc, but I do want this to get its time in the Game of Thrones press. It bothers me that a major character can get such a short shrift and still it barely shows up as a blip in all the press coverage of the Game of Thrones phenomenon (which is perfectly willing to tout the cult popularity of the source material to bolster the mainstream profile of the show). And while I can understand preferring positivity if nothing else than just as a general life perspective, you don’t really need to have any more justification for a negative comment.

    Now, once you make a comment, people obviously have the right to debate it. I don’t disagree with that. But the comments in this thread that are basically “My opinion of your opinion is that your opinion makes you pathetic and embarrassing” or “If you don’t like the show don’t watch or don’t come here”, those I disagree with.

    Right, anyway, I’d love it if someone who had an actual voice in the fandom can ask Benioff and Weiss why they did what they did, taking the whole big picture of the numerous changes to Cat’s character altogether.

  257. Visenya
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Man from the north,

    I don’t think changing a character’s entire personality is a small detail, which is what everyone here is saying.

  258. Set Dingleberry
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    You realize that the changing of a storyline from the book has nothing to do with the actual quality of the writing of the show right? Just because it is different doesn’t mean it’s bad writing. You also realize the show has been universally praised for it’s ‘bad writing’ also? Beyond that, your opinion of what constitutes bad writing is completely subjective, and not that there is anything wrong with this, but you are definitely in the minority in your opinion. Please let us know how you would write it better, without just wholesale copying the source material.

  259. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    I just don’t understand how anyone could consider GOT to objectively be a very well written series?

    Oh, right, I forgot that only people who agree with you are objective! And here I thought that ALL opinions are subjective – I think “Justified” is the best-written show on TV right now; my husband doesn’t like it at all. That doesn’t mean that he’s more or less objective than I am, just that we have different tastes and opinions.

    So, let me repeat that despite your inability to understand this, I do happen to think that parts of the TV show ARE very well-written, particularly Theon’s and Stannis’s season 2 arcs. Not all of the show is consistently well-written, but it’s miles above something like “The Walking Dead” (which I love but which is often poorly written in terms of characterization, pacing and every other way you want to judge a show.)

  260. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    Like zod said, 8,1 isn’t that good, and 20K votes isn’t good at all.

    And popularity is always good. The more people watching the show, the more people that might pick up the books (like I did), and read Martin’s brilliant piece of art. And the show being popular does mean something, quality-wise. Besides GoT, the most popular shows still airing are (I think) Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, Boardwalk Empire, Justified… What do I forget? All very good shows, though I’m no fan of TWD.

  261. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Yes, we all love these new posters who come here every so often to do nothing else but complain. I’ll just let them share their opinions here, and stop doing so myself if the people who run this place are more interested in that type of discussion. “Hey, that didn’t happen in the books! Fuck that, and fuck those D&D guys!” There – now I fit in better.

    And since you decided to quote only that one small portion of my post, let me repeat that I (and I’m sure I could include nearly everyone else) enjoy constructive criticism, but all this is is whining because the adaptation hasn’t matched up to their personal interpretation of the source material. And it’s mostly based upon an incredibly vague, ultimately very positive review.

    Enjoy the season everyone! I’ll be taking my leave…

    http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m481/motorfiets1/1290708698_magic-chair.gif

  262. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    This season is a disappointment. Worse than Homeland’s second season. Don’t know if I will continue watching.

  263. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    B.M.,

    EXCELLENT comment. This is exactly my issue. I mean, sure I care more about Catelyn specifically because she is my favorite. But the treatment if Cat is actually just symptomatic of larger thematic problems that the show has.

  264. Tyrellboy
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Whoaaaa! Wtf happened with winteriscoming.net? When did it turn to westeros.org?

  265. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea:
    This season is a disappointment. Worse than Homeland’s second season. Don’t know if I will continue watching.

    I’m sorry I am all for constructive criticism but no one is holding a gun to your head. Stick with the books.

  266. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Tyrellboy,

    It’s magic. Really, what did you expect. This is still a fantasy series.

  267. stop!
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    You do realize that this isnt a Catelyn thread right? Try to keep it on topic.

  268. Winter Is Coming
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Yes, we all love these new posters who come here every so often to do nothing else but complain. I’ll just let them share their opinions here, and stop doing so myself if the people who run this place are more interested in that type of discussion. “Hey, that didn’t happen in the books! Fuck that, and fuck those D&D guys!” There – now I fit in better.

    And since you decided to quote only that one small portion of my post, let me repeat that I (and I’m sure I could include nearly everyone else) enjoy constructive criticism, but all this is is whining because the adaptation hasn’t matched up to their personal interpretation of the source material. And it’s mostly based upon an incredibly vague, ultimately very positive review.

    Enjoy the season everyone! I’ll be taking my leave…

    http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m481/motorfiets1/1290708698_magic-chair.gif

    Well what are these comment sections for if not for discussion? It may not be a discussion that interests you and that is fine, but I don’t understand this all or nothing approach. Where you either have to love the discussion or the whole site is apparently not worth visiting.

    And I disagree that all there is is whining. Maybe a few posts came off that way, but since then there has been a fairly interesting discussion with many good points raised on both sides.

  269. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me Sane,

    Since you brought up Talisa, let’s talk about why I have a problem with the changes on that front.

    Jeyne Westerling is a fairly typical noblewoman. She’s sweet and eager to please and is trying to do her best in her new role as queen.

    But that wasn’t good enough for HBO. NOPE. Instead they did away with that character and created Talisa who actively REJECTS being a noble woman and that lifestyle and instead becomes a battlefield nurse because she ~isn’t like other girls~.

    I find it offensive that women/female characters can only be interesting if they are special snowflakes who reject the gender norms of their society.

  270. Jen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    B.M.,

    This is the most perfect comment ever, tbh. I mean, I love the show, and I would never have known about the books were it not for the show, so I can’t fault it THAT much, and it is a great show, and I love to watch it, but … SO MANY TRUTHS HERE.

  271. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    stop!,

    You do realize that she’s a legitimate part of the show’s objectives and was specifically mentioned in the review in question, right?

    If the mods say this is off topic, I’ll listen, of course. But … are you a mod?

  272. Lurker
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Even in a 10 episode season, you can’t get all of the nuances of a character into a show, especially when there are so many characters. I’m not a fan of all the changes that the show has made, but it works very well as a tv show. Catelyn might be a bit different when compared between the mediums, but I would never say that she is a totally different character.

    Robb’s storyline is much different but I’m ok with the changes…he is kind of a boring character in the books. The tv show needed to put him in the foreground to establish him as someone the audience cares about.

    I think the show has actually done a remarkable job showing and perhaps even improving some characters storylines…in particular Theon and Arya (who actually has a reason for not using her death wishes on “bigger villains” in the show).

  273. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    What’ll be great is when D&D get to AFfC & ADwD, and all of these ‘hardcore’ book fans start complaining that the changes (which will most definitely be coming) aren’t how they would have done it… Because truly, I’ve seen very few fans who don’t agree that some drastic changes have to be made after ASoS is finished, which is ultimately very hypocritical of them.

    That will be a treat to see. Honestly, I’ve come to think that many of these “purists” aren’t all that pure really. They simply hide their preferences behind the “it’s-different-in-the-books” veneer. But when books make a turn they don’t personaly like, these so-called purists are often the first to bash and bitch-slap Martin around and generally exhibit some cyberstalkerish tendencies towards the guy. Or Misery, if you’d like.

  274. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    The site is absolutely awesome, and definitely worth visiting. It’s the comment sections that have gone to shit. I’ve been posting here for a few years (formerly as Pastor_of_Muppets), but I’m no longer interested in hearing about how this thing sucks because it happened this way I the books, or how that thing doesn’t make any sense because it didn’t happen that way in the books.

    These types of posters began to dominate the conversation at the end of last season, and seem to have gotten an early start this season. I’ll save myself the trouble of adding any comparisons of this show to other great series within pantheon of ‘Golden Age’ television, as what’s more important is how it does or doesn’t compare to the books.

    So I’m not saying that I won’t be visiting the site, only that I’ll be avoiding the comments sections. Perhaps it is time to institute an actual forum here at WiC, which would require some type of registration.

  275. Luana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Have to jump in here to correct sunspear.

    sunspear:
    sadtrout,

    1. So now we’re parsing the difference between an alliance and fealty to give Catelyn credit? Really? Both things involve working together for a common goal. They are not particularly different.

    Do you really think there’s little difference between swearing fealty to someone and forming an alliance with them? Do you really think, for example, that it would not be particularly different if the UK Prime Minister swore fealty to the US President instead of the countries simply being being allies? Really?

    2. Sansa is fourth in the line of succession. Her claim is irrelevant if Bran and Rickon weren’t considered dead, Robb lived, or Robb had a son. She and Arya are, simply put, not as valuable as bargaining chips as Jaime Lannister is as a source of morale, a fighter, and a commander. Everyone in the books understands this, Cat’s motherly bias, and Robb’s wishful thinking notwithstanding.

    Bran and Rickon ARE considered dead at the point that Cat takes the decision to attempt to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya. Sansa is heir to Winterfell, and Arya is next in line after her. How can the heir to Winterfell be less politically important than a single Kingsguard member, who cannot inherit or rule anything due to his being a member of the Kingsguard? The heir (and spare) to Winterfell vs. one good warrior? Cat’s the one who’s thinking clearly here. The only logical quibble one can have with Cat is whether she is deluded to trust Jaime to bring about the exchange. And this is what “everyone” in the books is worried about. They don’t believe Jaime will honour his part of the bargain and return Sansa and Arya to the Starks.

    3. Robb is Doran Martell. He had every expectation of winning the war, so it was a good idea to try. Do really think letting Joffrey on the Throne would result in peace the same way Doran letting Robert would have?

    Now I’m really beginning to wonder if you have actually read the books, because Robb is the opposite of Doran Martell. Robb is a hotheaded 16-year-old boy who is bent on vengeance and makes rash, short-sighted decisions, like marrying Jeyne Westerling. In fact, it doesn’t even take Robb the hotheaded kid long to realize that he can’t win this war and that he’s bitten off more than he can chew. Doran Martell is the opposite; he is cool and calculated in his responses, and is playing the long game to ensure he can actually achieve his revenge.

    And why wouldn’t having peace under Joffrey be the same as having peace under Robert? Both are demonstrably bad choices for king, but to the vast majority of the people in Westeros, it doesn’t really matter who is on the throne. The vast majority of people get hurt and have their lives destroyed only because there’s a war, not because there’s one king or the other on the throne. And actually, that’s the whole point of ASOIAF.

  276. B.M.
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    Thanks! Yeah, I don’t mean to imply that there aren’t still things to love and enjoy about the show — obviously I wouldn’t be watching if I truly thought that. But it’s increasingly clear to me that the showrunners have a different understanding than I do about where “complexity” is located in the world of asoiaf.

  277. The Rabbit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I am very curious to find a reason for every change they made (especially those concerning the character behavour or motifs).
    I think that show-Cat is simply victim of non-POV structure of the show.
    Just imagine Cat as non-POV charcater in the books. Only thing we would be able to notice would be her actions. The POV structure allow the author to justifie these actions and I pretty much like book-Catelyn because of the things passing through her mind – which make her more sympatetic and understandable then her actions alone. So, by transfering all of these to the different mediumPOV structure is abandonned for obvious reason. The producers were probably in dilemma what to do with that particular very complex character – I think they did what they did by purpose not because they misunderstood the charcter. They would need much more time (which they had not) to establish such a complexity. And with a thousands of character they are dealing with I think it was pretty mission impossible. So they decided to take different path. I must say t I am not so happy with some changes concerning (Cersei as well), but I can live with it and still enjoy the show.
    For those complaing about Wicnet – Hey folks we are House Gatewatch – you seem to forget it ;)

  278. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    B.M.:
    show!Arya continues to indulge the plucky-badass-tomboy “most girls are stupid, I am the sword-wielding exception” trope.

    show!Robb is a manchild who’s fast on his way to fulfilling the immature Shakespearean love cliche.

    And Cat? Instead of acting as the voice of reason and transcending the vengeful impulse, show!Cat is either an uppity woman being put back in her place for daring to think she knows best, or she’s weepy and over-emotional and she must apologize.

    Sorry to say, but this is just complete hyperbolic nonsense. Not a single word here rings true. How can one debate with such sweeping generalisations and flat-out falsehoods?

    I really believe many purists would accuse Martin himself of not understanding his characters, because, hey, only your interpretation is the correct one, of course. Everyone else simply misunderstands the finer points of ASoIaF.

  279. Chibarin
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    B.M.:

    ASOIAF, the book series, is about complicating the characters you think you know. Game of Thrones, the show, has instead chosen to affirm that each character is exactly who you think they are. Why? To make the characters more likable? Not to me, and evidently not to a lot of posters here. I like them better when they’re carrying the thematic spirit of the series rather than negating it. It’s not about nitpicky book purism, it’s about the intent of the series being so far from the intent of the books. It makes me really, really skeptical that they can ever overcome their love of death/blood/sex as shock factor in time to relay the series’ critical messages about war and victimization.

    This post deserves all the praises. Thank you Sir or Lady.

  280. Luana
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    B.M.,

    Perfect. To anyone who doesn’t understand what’s going on in this thread, or why, just read this comment by B. M., and all your questions will be answered.

  281. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren:
    Shock Me Sane,

    Since you brought up Talisa, let’s talk about why I have a problem with the changes on that front.

    Jeyne Westerling is a fairly typical noblewoman. She’s sweet and eager to please and is trying to do her best in her new role as queen.

    But that wasn’t good enough for HBO. NOPE. Instead they did away with that character and created Talisa who actively REJECTS being a noble woman and that lifestyle and instead becomes a battlefield nurse because she ~isn’t like other girls~.

    I find it offensive that women/female characters can only be interesting if they are special snowflakes who reject the gender norms of their society.

    That is an interesting perspective that I hadn’t considered. I suppose to me she is such a peripheral character that I hardly consider her at all in the books. I appreciate the considerate response and will ponder that.

  282. Napoleonbuff
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Not based on the three episodes I’ve seen. Karstark points out in one of the episodes that they lost the war the moment Robb married Talisa. The scene in question is Catelyn blaming herself for everything that has happened to her family because she was unable to love Jon. I don’t think viewers are supposed to believe that this is truly the cause of what has thus far happened…just one character’s lament after learning sad news about her father and her two youngest sons.

  283. ?andstarkians
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Luana,

    Luana:
    B.M.,

    Perfect. To anyone who doesn’t understand what’s going on in this thread, or why, just read this comment by B. M., and all your questions will be answered.

    All that post tells me is that B.M thinks the show has shitty characterization compared to the books. How is that in anyway important or constructive in this discussion?

  284. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Napoleonbuff,

    Thank you. People took Michelle’s words too literally. It is understandable that Cat would have self doubt/regret.

  285. The Rabbit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Napoleonbuff,

    You did see the 3 episodes? Or I just missed the point?

  286. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Though another point to consider is, would HBO have been called sexist if they just made Jeyne/Talisa the demure woman she is in the books? It’s quite possible, the sword cuts both ways. Ultimately I think it was the right decision to make her more interesting because this is TV and not books, and TV audiences have short attention spans.

    I’ve read the books about 5 times each since ’96 and I can’t tell you an interesting fact about Jeyne Westerling other than she was from an impoverished house that married a rich merchant’s daughter without using a wiki. I think for TV you need someone a little more interesting. Point being, I understand the decision and think it was more of a “we want audiences to care” than “all women need to be anti-establishment to be interesting”.

  287. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    ?andstarkians,

    His comment contextualizes the complaints not merely as nitpicks about specific details but how those details add up to a thematic difference, how those details change the spirit of the character.

    Not all changes are bad, not all changes necessarily change the spirit of the story. But some can, and B.M.’s comment points out changes that take the characters in not just a different but a totally opposite direction. Because subverting and questioning various tropes of Western literary tradition (more than just “the big hero dies”) is a big part of Martin’s story, it strikes some as against the spirit. It’s not about being like the books in every single teeny tiny way. It’s about understanding Martin’s intentions and staying true to them overall.

  288. Visenya
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    ?andstarkians,

    Because this is a discussion about disagreements on how the show has treated a certain character? I’m hoping this is a troll comment because it’s just embarrassing otherwise.

  289. prom000
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Still you ingnore everything Else that seh has writen ans geht Hung Up On the Number of Awards.

  290. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    I clicked on the post hoping it would be a discussion of season three and Jace’s overall review. Clearly, I was wrong.

  291. King Tommen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Here’s the thing: everyone is allowed to not like or agree with certain aspects of the show, whether it has to do with the adaptation or simply the execution of the story on the screen. With the show needing to dramatize upwards of 10 separate story arcs in conjunction with each other and have them all tie in to ongoing themes from episode to episode, some missteps and inaccuracies are bound to happen with some of them.

    I know that even though I am a rabid fan of the show (as I was of the books), there are some of the storylines that I wish were done somewhat differently and that more attention was put on one part than another. But in the grand scheme of things, when looking at the show as an entity, these are only minor quibbles and there is not nearly enough of these cons that could ever outweigh the overwhelming number of pros as far as the pleasure I get from watching the show unfold.

    I think it’s fine to have these parts that you don’t like but please try and allow for some perspective and not let this aspect of the show that bothers you stop you from appreciating the overall awesomeness of the series. I feel bad for people who can’t get past one particular set of scenes and dwell on these perceived imperfections at the expense of all the other great scenes that preceded and followed them.

    As for the Cat thing, I’ve always felt that there is a certain subset of the fandom that has brought a lot of baggage from this issue from the books and have wanted the show to back up their point of view but instead feel like the show has made things even worse in their opinion. It’s all in the eye of the beholder and everyone’s interpretation of a character is going to be different. There’s no right or wrong here, just a decision that has been made as far as characterization goes.

  292. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    What the man says is that a show character should primarily be judged against his/her show self.

  293. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    prom000,

    I didn’t ignore his/her other point. I addressed it as well. It was incorrect as well. You can not deny that this show is a critical success.

  294. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Yago,

    I’m not saying that popularity is bad. Just that it isn’t indicative of somethings quality.

  295. barak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen,

    This, + a million

  296. B.M.
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Mr Fixit: Sorry to say, but this is just complete hyperbolic nonsense. Not a single word here rings true. How can one debate with such sweeping generalisations and flat-out falsehoods?

    I really believe many purists would accuse Martin himself of not understanding his characters, because, hey, only your interpretation is the correct one, of course. Everyone else simply misunderstands the finer points of ASoIaF.

    Mr Fixit,

    I’m certainly open to debating those points. If you’d like to give an example of the show presenting Arya’s violence critically, or taking Robb to task for his emotional impulsiveness in the way it has with Cat, I’m all ears. In all honesty, I haven’t rewatched the show in the off-season so it could be that I’m rusty on the scenes.

    But judging from the way the material was presented through the show, I get the impression that the showrunners don’t care about complicating character cliches; they care about making characters more likable. Those are different, and often contradictory, aims, that negate one of the series’ greatest strengths.

    For people who believe that the purpose of a show IS simply to be likeable rather than critical (and therefore the show is doing good in making the changes that it has) then we have a disagreement about the value and purpose of storytelling media. But that’s a different discussion.

  297. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Except neither B.M, nor yourself, have done any of that. What are those differences across the multitude of characters in the story? All he did was make a blanket statement that the show is doing one thing, and the books are doing another. No details were provided, no examples given. There is essentially nothing being said there. And let’s also keep in mind that we’re using five books worth of material to make these judgements, while the show hasn’t even started airing its third season. He also seems to believe that his interpretation of the characters is the only viable interpretation, when that clearly is not the case.

  298. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me Sane,

    I don’t think demure women are bad women to be. It’s like this, if it’s okay for a male character to be shy and demure (what about Podrick Payne, poor thing!), it should be okay for a female character to be shy and demure too. A lot of newer feminism is about destigmatizing traditionally feminine traits, which I think demureness would fall under especially in Westeors, saying that it’s okay to be either traditionally feminine or to choose to be otherwise as long as it’s your choice and true to who you are.

    But I would like to offer another point into this discussion: why is it so important that we care about Robb’s romance at all? Do we have to? Why do we have to? Is it just because it’s one of those things all shows “ought” to have? And if that’s the reason — would it be fair to say that this is not a way in which the show is daring and rule-breaking, rather conventional and formulaic? I’m talking about this particular storyline right now, not the show overall.

  299. tysnow
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    I don’t see how anyone can be bashing a show before the entire season runs its full course, let alone have watched the first few episodes. All this based on Mr. Lacob’s cryptic quote from episode 2, “character assassination”, or the change in Sam’s story line (which still might happen later) possibly at the wall, where more can witness the event.

    Furthermore, for those saying they will stop watching or might because it’s not adhering to their mind’s eye interpretation or the book version. This is considered one of the five best shows on television, anywhere, and has reached massive worldwide popularity and super fan status. So really do you think HBO cares for the opinion of a small minority of book fans versus the millions watching and loving their adaption (interpretation) of ASoIaF, not to mention critics the world over.

    Finally, WiC needs to monitor and make sure these posts stay polite, sensitive and professional and not devolve into personal issues over book interpretations. This site is after all about the HBO series not the book series. It is best if you purge the books from your mind and watch the show as if you never read them, which is exactly the state of mind I view them.

  300. Visenya
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Mr Fixit,

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    If you look at the comment I replied to, you’d see that the comment ?andstarkians was replying to specifically mentioned the threat and not the article itself.

  301. Hi-Fi
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    Catelyn is one of my favorite characters from the books.

    That said, I love her in the TV show. Michelle Fairley’s portrayal of her is the perfect mix of strenght, duty and vulnerability.

  302. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga,

    The details were not provided because her/his point is that it’s not just a nitpick of this detail and that detail, it’s about the overall direction of the character. Arya was provided as an example to show that some of us find this a pattern. Since this discussion is about Catelyn, you want details about Catelyn?

    Is that what we want in this thread? Or do we want LESS Catelyn in this thread. Because I’m getting mixed signals.

  303. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    A rejoinder to all of this:

    B.M.:
    For those who don’t understand why Cat’s characterization matters so much to so many people, I would like to say this: It’s not just about nitpicking Cat’s dialogue. What’s being critiqued here is not so much a lack of purism with regards to detail; it’s about thematic alteration.

    I think most criticisms of the show stem from the fact that, for a book series that explicitly about reversing and knocking down traditional tropes, the show has devoted a lot of time to upholding those same tropes.

    Examples: While the book fairly quickly turns Arya’s plot into a not-at-all glamorous child soldier narrative, show!Arya continues to indulge the plucky-badass-tomboy “most girls are stupid, I am the sword-wielding exception” trope.

    …Who watched Yoren get killed and saw Polliver stick Needle through Lommy Greenhands’ neck. And then was surrounded by weeks of brutality at Harrenhall.

    Book!Robb was a fifteen year old whose crown was too heavy for his head, who got caught between conflicting understandings of honor – show!Robb is a manchild who’s fast on his way to fulfilling the immature Shakespearean love cliche.

    A man child? It becomes clear he’s very serious about his endeavor, about war as a pursuit, and his desires to free the North, and not to sit the Iron Throne. And he also fell in love. This makes him a man child? Or someone who has made a fateful decision, just as he did in the book. (Spare me the bit about how his marriage to Jeyne Westerling was done out of “honor.” The original sin remains the same, and Robb was too much of a human not to marry the woman rather than leave her as Robert Baratheon would have done.

    Show!Littlefinger can’t resist telling you all about his genius plan with a dashingly sinister twirl of his mustache.

    Well…er…yeah. True. But that’s a failure of TV writing, not a failure of the adaptation. The motivations are the same. They’re just too “on the nose.”

    And Cat? Instead of acting as the voice of reason and transcending the vengeful impulse, show!Cat is either an uppity woman being put back in her place for daring to think she knows best, or she’s weepy and over-emotional and she must apologize.

    She frees Jaime Lannister out of a desire to extend an olive branch and parlays with Renly. Lest we forget, her decision to take Tyrion to the Eyrie was the same in the book, and it was arguably the worst decision she made.

    ASOIAF, the book series, is about complicating the characters you think you know. Game of Thrones, the show, has instead chosen to affirm that each character is exactly who you think they are. Why? To make the characters more likable? Not to me, and evidently not to a lot of posters here. I like them better when they’re carrying the thematic spirit of the series rather than negating it. It’s not about nitpicky book purism, it’s about the intent of the series being so far from the intent of the books. It makes me really, really skeptical that they can ever overcome their love of death/blood/sex as shock factor in time to relay the series’ critical messages about war and victimization.

    I think we’re seeing those themes pretty well.

  304. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    Theon’s story arc was good but I felt that this mostly rested on the fact that Alfie did a really good job as an actor. What did you think was so great about what they did with Stannis? I thought the attempted strangling of Melisandre was way off base as was his reaction to her saying she could give him a son. I doubt Stannis would be moved by the idea of an illegitimate son. That runs contrary to his entire character. The writing on the show tends towards spelling everything out for the audience as if they can’t grasp essential parts of the plot otherwise.

  305. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    300 comments and the only thing that has been discussed is Catelyn. My lords, my ladies, I’ll be taking my leave from this post now.

    Looking forward to discuss something else (hopefully) in a next post with you. Goodbye, and have fun.

  306. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    So can the mods be clear on this: are book-to-show discussions welcome or not welcome on this site? Is this site strictly for show-only? I used to come here years ago and found discussions of both book and show, but if it’s changed I’ll respect the mods’ stance.

  307. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    I think WIC loves this sort of discussion. And why not? It creates more traffic to their site. My concern, as we have seen in this post, is that it dominates the tone of the comments. This is the main drawback of not having a message board.

  308. Mrs. H'Ghar's Twin
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    A woman’s twin is so excited to hear that PW is for sure IN this season.

  309. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Luana,

    1. Okay, it’s clear we’re never going going to convince one another on this. And no Luana, they are not exactly the same, but the underlying principle of working together is close enough that Catelyn doesn’t deserve credit for coming up with a new idea when so many of Robb’s bannermen were proposing the same thing. I’ll leave it at that.
    2. You consider the strategically idiotic moves by both Balon and Theon, a fake murder cover story, Talisa’s pregnency being sabotaged by her mother, and the RW a simple, forseeable set of cricumstances? Who was Sansa supposed to marry anyway? The Greyjoys hate them, the Tyrells and Martells swear themselves to the Lannisters, and Lysa is useless. So yes, Jaime is absolutely worth more than two girls, just like everyone in the novels thinks.
    3. Yes, I meant to type Robb is not Doran Martell. My mistake. But my point stands. Doran let Robert, a guy who, though he may hate, was still a better King than Aerys ever was live because there was no possible way he could win. You, on the other hand, want Robb to stop fighting Joffrey, a terrible king guarenteed to cause more war suffering, give up any chance to get justice for his father, despite the fact that he has a good chance at succeeding.

  310. kd
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,
    PLEASE NO MORE CATELYN IM BEGGING YOU FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

  311. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm | Permalink
  312. Winter Is Coming
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    So can the mods be clear on this: are book-to-show discussions welcome or not welcome on this site? Is this site strictly for show-only? I used to come here years ago and found discussions of both book and show, but if it’s changed I’ll respect the mods’ stance.

    ALL discussion is welcome. Provided you are using spoilers tags to hide any upcoming events, you are free to discuss the books and compare them to the show.

  313. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Well I’m perfectly fine cooling the Catelyn discussion, honestly (for the people who were actually polite about wanting to talk about something else). I just kept going because people were responding to me and so I felt like they expected answers, but of course that’s just an ongoing cycle. I stated my opinion about what concerned me and I’m cool leaving it there for now.

  314. prom000
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    B.M.,

    +1
    Thanks for voicing something in english that is even hard für me to write in german.

    P.s.: So how is this whining Or bookpuristing? It is a well thought out argument.

  315. Chris
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    If you look real closely at Ned’s execution scene you can see that his head is breathing and moving slightly while his body remains completely motionless. It’s quite clear that they cropped Sean Bean’s head onto a dummy in post-production, and looks a little fake.

    I don’t undertand why HBO fucks these things up. In the book they didn’t chop a moving head from a motionless dummy, and it makes me furious that B&W didn’t stay more true to the source material. Scenes mishandled like this make me terrified for how they’ll handle some upcoming material. Perhaps I’ll have to stop watching because I’m sure they’ll fake a few more deaths and I can’t handle this Hollywood book-to-screen adaptation bullshit.

  316. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    Well said, but I think the stuff with Littlefinger is blown out of proportion. He mocked Cersei, and he told two whores his backstory. No plan details.

  317. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    The action girl trope seems to be one of the only ways that fans can appreciate a female character. By all accounts the majority of women in Westeros aren’t like Arya, Asha, and Brienne. They have to protect themselves and their families within the constraints of a sexist political system that denies them the use armor and swords. Women like Catelyn, Sansa, Margaery, Roslin, Jeyne etc aren’t less interesting or strong because they don’t slit throats. They are very interesting in and of themselves. The “I’m not like other girls” thing they pulled with Talisa is irritating. And it only serves to put more emphasis on Robb and pull it away from Catelyn. Not to mention Robb’s reason for marrying Jeyne was a lot more understandable.

  318. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    This is all hugely interesting for me, and I’m being completely honest. I love debate.

    I have seen the episode(s) in question. I am in almost total agreement with Jace’s review (so much so that I need to figure out how to re-word what I have already written for an upcoming TVEquals review of the first 4 episodes lest my words border on plagiarism). SPOILERS (OBVIOUSLY) below:

    I think the first episode is a little slow. There’s a lot of catching up to do, so there is more than a little “let’s explain where we are” in the dialogue. So by its very nature it’s going to be a bit rough-hewn. Also, I wasn’t a huge fan of HBO’s vision of Tormund — I prefer the never-ruffled boisterous guy from the books rather than the Angry Biker we meet. Some people didn’t like the fact that we got no Arya, no Jaime and Brienne, but I’m actually a fan of not cramming every character into one episode.

    But there’s still plenty of good. Dany’s dragons (which most of you have seen in various previews) are so well done–and are basically becoming scary as shit. Yes, there is no “Arstan Whitebeard,” but having that name serves nothing, as we the audience can spot Ian McIlhenny under that beard almost immediately. I loved his intro–loved everything, in fact, about Dany’s story. Daenerys is one of the stars of ASoS, and she is served exceedingly well here.

    I do see how fans of Catelyn could be irked by her discussion (with Talisa of all people) about Jon Snow. The scene revolves around how Cat once prayed for Jon Snow, who was extremely ill, promising the Seven (or the Mother) that if he was allowed to live, she would try to treat him more fairly, and even suggest to Ned that he should legitimize Jon. She did this because she knew how his death would affect Ned, who she loved. She admits to Talisa that once he recovered she was not able to do that, and sees it as one of her great failings.

    It feels like, to me, the writers wanted to somehow make amends for the hate Cat gets by making her a little more sympathetic to Jon Snow fans, yet it really only succeeds in underlining some of the changes that have irked many people. Now let me say this: The scene is not as egregious as some of the season 2 changes. Could Cat have had this discussion with, say, Jeyne Westerling? Quite possibly. It doesn’t contradict anything really, other than maybe adding some regret for her treatment of him. Could Cat have had moments where she didn’t hate Jon Snow? I think so, because, as some people have pointed out, Cat’s defining characteristics don’t revolve around Jon Snow. So logically that makes sense. Only in the context of the scene does it feel like: This Is All About Jon.

    Now you could argue, “Her even considering legitimizing Jon Snow goes against everything she believes,” and you might have a case. But I suspect they are setting up an even bigger confrontation with Robb, where this conflict in her heart just won’t budge, making for a more visceral performance by Madden and Fairley. At least I hope.

    Anyway, that happens in the second episode, which is stronger than the first. The third is stronger than the second (and ends with a OMG moment that you expect but still—-you’re still like O.O when it hits) …

    … and the 4th episode is even better than than the third, and is easily one of the greatest GoT episode of all time.

  319. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen:
    It’s all in the eye of the beholder and everyone’s interpretation of a character is going to be different.There’s no right or wrong here, just a decision that has been made as far as characterization goes.

    Very well put. Martin writes beautiful multidimensional characters that can be interpreted in various ways. Not everyone will agree when dissecting them trying to understand what makes them tick, and that’s part of what makes them such fascinating characters: the fact we can spend countless hours debating finer points of their psyche and their actions.

    Problems arise, as this thread shows all too well, because inevitably Preordained Keepers of Mythos and Martin’s Undiluted Vision appear behaving dogmatically, as if only their singular interpretation is The True One and every single deviation means D&D are visionless butchers trying to one-up Martin because They Know Better.

    Soon a bunch of big words gets bandied about brimming with Meaning(TM), like subverting tropes, feminism, motherhood and other such edgy sociological concepts heard on a course somewhere, because we’re in the sweet spot between childhood and cynicism of adulthood and therefore Know Better.

    Ahem. Carry on.

  320. tysnow
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Yes I wish show Arya was more the killer from the books and the mysteriousness of LF ambitions and plans stayed hidden. I wanted more complexity from the books and less cliche and troupe, but the medium of television with only 10 episodes a season forces concessions. Sometimes time constraints force compression or revisions of characters, because it becomes to complex if the show isn’t complicated enough already.
    I am ecstatic with the outcome, because this is better than I ever hoped for. I do wish we had more San San interaction, at least I still can rely on Ros appearing sporadically, which is comforting, as I love women “Kissed by Fire”. Speaking of, cannot wait for Rose, Michelle, Sophie and of course Carice to make their appearances again.

  321. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    Catelyn not slitting someone’s throat, heh?
    Gonna read FaB’s comment now.

  322. B.M.
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    I’d be happy to provide a detailed list of scenes in which I think the show affirmed a cliche when it had an opportunity to present a more complex interpretation; I’m sure many people here would be happy to help. But since prior posts in the thread had maligned this approach as “purist,” “nitpicky,” “whiny,” and overdone, I didn’t do it. I assumed that since you’ve supposed heard about this critique so often, you knew which examples I had in mind. My apologies. Do you want more detail, or less? I could make you a list, but I’d need a day or two.

    My point was to explain why this debate matters: because many people (me included) think that the treatment of many characters on the show is contradictory to the spirit of the books, not just in the details but in the overall approach. Where the series subverts and questions traditional tropes, the show frequently seems to affirm them.

    I’m saying that the debate isn’t simply about nitpicking details, but rather about thematic integrity. You’re obviously welcome to disagree and say that you think the show has done an A+ job in conveying Martin’s themes and intentions. But that is what the debate is about, in my mind; not whether some people are being too “purist” about details.

    (For the record, I am female.)

  323. Ned
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Book purists suck. You haven’t watched it yet, chill out. Book meet TV show, TV Show meet Book, you guys are about 90% the same, appreciate the differences. Having them be an exact replica of each other would be boring. You will never find a more faithful adaptation anywhere else … Ever.

  324. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    Let’s talk about Arya, since the majority of this thread has already dealt with Catelyn. A major issue many book fundamentalists have with her second season arc, is that she didn’t murder anyone when she escaped Harrenhal and, as such, her overall arc has been significantly altered and/ or weakened. All this complaint tells me is that the person who holds said opinion obviously isn’t familiar with how character development works on a serialized television show.

    For Arya to have murdered a couple (or even just one) guard when leaving Harrenhal, the writers would be giving up a potential ‘pay-off’ moment down the line. Think of it this way: In the show, Arya will kill Polliver at the inn to get Needle back, and most likely that will be her first time murdering someone (other than the stable boy, which was more of an accident). If the audience had already seen her kill the guards in Harrenhal, it comes across as an emotional moment, but not necessarily a huge beat for her character.

    In the books, we’ve been inside Arya’s head, and we fully understand the transition she’s going through. The lack of a P.O.V. structure in the series holds the audience back from really, truly understanding the mentality of Arya in that moment, so in order to give her character somewhere to go in the future, that piece of development is pushed back to a more appropriate time. In the show, Arya will have experienced Harrenhal, traveled with both the BwB and the Hound, and will have been present when her mother, brother, and kinsmen are killed at The Twins. So when Arya essentially freaks out and brutally murders Polliver, the audience can make a clear one-to-one connection on what has led Arya down this path, and it will feel natural and organic. The same can be said about her decision thereafter to travel to Braavos.

    Using five entire novels’ worth of material to compare to two seasons of television is a battle the show will always lose. Think, for just a minute, about the reasoning behind some things being omitted, or delayed, or changed entirely, and in almost every case it will be for the good of the narrative.

    The characters on this show are already a good deal more complicated than many other characters on television, despite their relatively short amount of screen-time comparatively. For instance, as a huge fan of Breaking Bad, I love the character of Walter White. But Mr. White is not at all a “complicated” character. Essentially, the decisions Walt makes book down to his pride and hubris, but I doubt anyone here would say his characterization has been “weak”.

    Give the show time, and stop making judgements at the earliest convenience. As a reader, you would have never guessed that Jaime would redeem himself so ably when you finished ACoK, right?

  325. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Thanks Fab! I can’t wait to see the episodes for myself.

  326. kd
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Would you say that the first four this season are stronger than the first four from the last 2 seasons?

  327. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Ah, FaB’s review gives me good hopes, especially for episodes 3 and 4.

  328. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Yago,

    Haha, oops. Bad wording on my part. I mean they aren’t “warriors” per se unless it comes to self defense.

  329. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga,

    While I sincerely would love to pursue the topic, I’m bowing out so people who want to discuss other aspects of this particular article can have the floor. Perhaps we will be able to revisit the topic some time, I think it’s very interesting and I’ll keep your comment in mind.

  330. Carne
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Could you provide some details regarding Burn Gorman’s character?

  331. barak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    sadtrout: But I would like to offer another point into this discussion: why is it so important that we care about Robb’s romance at all? Do we have to? Why do we have to? Is it just because it’s one of those things all shows “ought” to have? And if that’s the reason — would it be fair to say that this is not a way in which the show is daring and rule-breaking, rather conventional and formulaic? I’m talking about this particular storyline right now, not the show overall.

    Tell me you’re being deliberately obtuse. It’s important that we care about Robb’s romance because him breaking his promise to Walder Frey is the direct cause of his death. I’d say that’s pretty damn important. Sure, the writers could do it like it is in the book, but that would make some pretty crappy television and would leave viewers unsatisfied. Look, I know you’re a book purist but even you should be able to understand that books and TV are very different medium, what works in one doesn’t necessarily work in the other. GoT needs to make Robb’s romance resonate even with casual viewers (and by that I mean “not book fans or purists”), they need to give his decision weight and depth to give the eventual resolution the necessary punch. At the end of Season 2 Robb’s life is falling apart. His relationship with this girl, his feelings for her, is the only thing that’s “right” in his world. He wants to keep that, and wants to protect that.

    I don’t care if that’s not how it is in the novel. That’s how it is in the show, that’s how the show has built up his character in Season 1 and Season 2. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to agree with the producers’ decision, but they have a perfectly valid reason for doing what they do. I’m sorry you’re not getting what you expected from the show (though it seems to me you wanted a word for word translation of your own interpretation of the themes and characters), but you have to live with the fact that this is not “your” show and not the “book fans’” show, and you’re not entitled to anything. I hate to say this but if you hate it so much, you might as well stop watching.

  332. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    When I give you an example of something the show did extremely well (Theon), because you “objectively” know that “Game of Thrones” is a poorly written show, it cannot be that *gasp* the writers wrote a great arc for Theon (which differs on several points from how it played out in the books, by the way!) And your critique of Stannis’s arc seems to rest entirely on how it wasn’t how Stannis was portrayed in the books – I actually completely dislike Stannis in the books, and I like him on the show, and although Stephen Dillane is a fine actor, some of must be credited to the writing, because again, he is so different from how he is portrayed in the books.

    So it seems that whenever I give you an example of what I think is well-written, you will counter that either I’m wrong (because different from the books cannot apparently be well-written) or that the credit goes to the actors (who are all, yes, amazing. But you can take great actors and write horrible stories for them and there is only so much they can do with their material, e.g. a great deal of “The Walking Dead.”)

    You know, I actually agree that Catelyn’s (and Robb’s) arcs on the show haven’t been handled very well, but that doesn’t mean that the entire series is poorly written. Like the Game of Thrones, it seems there is no middle ground in “Game of Thrones” fandom. One must either effusively praise every single thing the show does, while denigrating the books and those who like certain things about them better as fundamentalists or purists, or else one must insist that Dan Weiss and David Benioff are talentless hacks who have butchered a great work of literature and don’t understand anything of what George R. R. Martin wrote. (On a sidenote: I’m also troubled by the assumption that those who love a character the most have therefore the only valid interpretations of that character’s actions/personality. We all read things different ways based on our own prejudices and assumptions.)

    Surely I’m not the only person who thinks that the show does some things brilliantly and other things not so well; some of the changes from the books are inspired (Tywin’s introduction, for example is brilliant!) and others are less so (not having Catelyn know of the “deaths” of Bran and Rickon before she releases Jaime)? At the moment, for me, the brilliant stuff far outweighs the things I don’t like. When and if that ratio changes, well, I will consider giving up my expensive HBO subscription, putting the money towards something else and re-reading the books.

  333. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    I understand what you mean, but Dany isn’t really a “warrior” either – show or book (she just lets others do the fighting while thinking she’s superior to everyone), and she’s still a (far too) popular characters for non-readers. I don’t think the showrunners believe only fighters can be interesting. They didn’t change much about Sansa either, and I know some people who like her.
    But let’s move on to something else now.

  334. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    barak,

    I was not being deliberately obtuse, what you care or don’t care about is actually not what everyone has to care or not care about, and you have to live with the fact that people will disagree with you and not love the show you love and can still watch it if they want to.

    You rude jerk.

  335. a.milly
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Maybe the writers had bad relationships with their mothers.

  336. kd
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout:
    barak,

    I was not being deliberately obtuse, what you care or don’t care about is actually not what everyone has to care or not care about, and you have to live with the fact that people will disagree with you and not love the show you love and can still watch it if they want to.

    You rude jerk.

    Nothing he said was particularly rude. Also, didnt you say you were leaving this thread?

  337. whiningfangirl
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Gonfaloniere,

    My critique of Stannis is based on the fact that some of the things he does in the show change essential aspects of his character. Yes it is an adaption but why keep characters if you are going to significantly alter central parts of them. Stannis strangling Melisandre made him more likeable in your mind?

  338. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    kd,

    “i know you are a book purist but even you should be able to understand” – not rude? When have I once said anything about anyone else’s comprehension abilities here?

    I said I’d stop talking about Catelyn, and I did. I was going to go but I’ll stay if it bugs you.

  339. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    kd:
    Fire And Blood,

    Would you say that the first four this season are stronger than the first four from the last 2 seasons?

    Hmmm. Yes. In most ways. I didn’t love the first episode of season 1, other than how well it established everyone. And I wish the first 4 episodes of the first season had had more money to spend. There were some editing issues… basically the usual problems fledgeling series encounter.

    I thought season 2′s first 4 episodes were stronger than season 1′s, though episode 4 of season 2 is one of my least-favorite episodes of all time (especially following in the wake of Cogman’s outstanding 3rd episode).

    So yes, I think so. They’re not perfect, nothing is, but … man, it’s really good.

  340. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    Carne:
    Fire And Blood,

    Could you provide some details regarding Burn Gorman’s character?

    I wish I could. “Black Brother At The End of His Rope,” really is all. I would need to re-watch but I don’t remember anyone calling him by an actual name. He is Burn Gorman, however, and few people can give the thousand-yard-stare like him. So it works. And the scene in question is balls-on good.

  341. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Good to hear that. Is Cogman doing an episode this season? *too lazy to look it up*

  342. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    No name-calling or personal attacks. Debates get heated, but no need to go there.

    Visit our moderation policy if you’re unclear on the rules.

  343. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout,

    I think your points are valid. However, I find Podrick Payne almost as boring as Jeyne in the books, despite his journey you could just fill in his name with another at any point (anyone could have saved Tyrion) and it wouldn’t change things. The reason you need to care about them is for dramatic effect at the end of the season however. On TV, people have not read 2,500 pages about these characters, so you need to up the ante to have them invested. It is a different medium, and it takes different strategies to make people care.

    But you know, what entertains you or I or the “average” TV consumer is different. HBO is trying to make something that will be accessible to all audiences and not totally butcher the main storyline. Peripheral characters are the primary way they can make those changes.

  344. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    In your OPINION fundamental aspects of Stannis’s character are changes (and what aspects exactly are you referring to anyway? His self-righteousness? His complete belief in himself? His rigidity? his pedantry about grammar?) I enjoyed his interpolated scenes with Melisandre and given that neither he nor Melisandre are POV characters how do you (or anyone else) know what he may or may not have done with/to her when they were alone so how do you know it’s not something he would have done after he lost everything at the Blackwater? In any case, you are still sticking to the idea that poorly written is equivalent to “not in the books.”

    Also, thanks for putting words in my mouth, by the way. Did I say it was Stannis strangling Melisandre that made me like Show Stannis more? Is that the only thing he did in Season 2? If you must know, it was his hilarious literal mindedness brought to life – which for all I know may have been true of his book character but I didn’t notice because the chapters in the books where Davos fanboys about Stannis are so totally boring to me which is why I think his show version is better written.

    And do you think there’s any point in continuing to discuss this with me since your belief that the show is poorly written is incontrovertible fact? I can’t say that I’m really up for a conversion, preferring to wallow in my own ignorant and wrong beliefs that parts of it are extremely well-written.

  345. Shock Me Sane
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Thanks for sharing that F&B. I’ll be totally honest and say when the reviewer said it’s tantamount to character assassination in reference to Cat I thought he was trolling because….. she is assassinated. lol It sounds good to me!

  346. Napoleonbuff
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    The Rabbit,

    Yes, I’ve seen the first three episodes, and was referencing what happens.

  347. Carne
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Ah, doesn’t sound like a very big role then. Guessing he’s several of the Night’s Watch mutineers combined into one?

  348. Jenny
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Catelyn is actually a very well known trope of another great drama of love and hate and war: The Illyad by Homer, where there is Cassandra.
    A noble woman who can see the doom coming but doomed herself never to be listened to by the powerful males around her.

    I think in some ways the show has gotten around to achieve at least that part, although it also displeases me to see her so passive.
    I think sometimes her motives remain unclear in the show – like the “why free Jaime Lannister” plot. Her little debate when Littlefinger returned the bones to her was not that marked…
    Well. I guess in a way they’ll have to start people talking about “who is Jon Snow” to get the non book readers on the traces of his suspected origins. I don’t think many of them are going to remember Lyanna and Rhaegar at this point.

  349. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Whiningfangirl curses, the edit function failed me. What I mean to say is that no, I don’t enjoy watching strangulation but I liked seeing Stannis display strong emotions rather than being the emotionless rigid robot that’s all we see in the second book. And I also never felt that Melisandre was in the least afraid of him and figured a powerful sorceress as she most certainly is could have broken his hold on her without blinking. So this scene isn’t at all like say, watching someone be hurt in Littlefinger’s brothel. I hope you will not, in future, imply that I enjoy scenes of violence against women just to score cheap points!

  350. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Whiningfangirl curses, the edit function failed me. What I mean to say is that no, I don’t enjoy watching strangulation but I liked seeing Stannis display strong emotions rather than being the emotionless rigid robot that’s all we see in the second book. (Not to mention that I also never felt that Melisandre was in the least afraid of him and figured a powerful sorceress as she most certainly is could have broken his hold on her without blinking. So this scene isn’t at all like say, watching someone be hurt in Littlefinger’s brothel. I hope you will not, in future, imply that I enjoy scenes of violence against women just to score some cheap points in a debate over fictional characters.)

    Yes, sometimes the show is unsubtle (hello Littlefinger!) but don’t you think sometimes that’s necessary? Remember all the book readers who never realized Renly’s was gay? I don’t say it’s the best written show on TV (“Justified” and “Breaking Bad” are for me joint holders of that crown at the moment) but its very far from being the worst.

  351. kd
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Hmmm. Yes. In most ways. I didn’t love the first episode of season 1, other than how well it established everyone. And I wish the first 4 episodes of the first season had had more money to spend. There were some editing issues… basically the usual problems fledgeling series encounter.

    I thought season 2′s first 4 episodes were stronger than season 1′s, though episode 4 of season 2 is one of my least-favorite episodes of all time (especially following in the wake of Cogman’s outstanding 3rd episode).

    So yes, I think so. They’re not perfect, nothing is, but … man, it’s really good.

    Huzzah! Let the inexorable rise of GoT continue. Down with The Wire, the new king has been crowned!

  352. Gonfaloniere
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    kd,

    The King stay the King!

  353. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Fire and blood could you rank the following “story arcs” from best to worst so far:

    Arya BwB
    Sam and nights watch
    Jon and WIldlings
    Kings landing
    Daenarys
    Jamie/Brienne
    Theon (?)
    Stannis

    Also I am most worried about the invented Theon arc and havent heard anything positive said about this one. IT is fundamental for the future to have Iwan Rheons’s character done correct. Also want to know if Roose has been properly introduced in the first 4 episodes or if he still is Robb’s sideshow Bob?

  354. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    Oh and Bran’s arc, I dont want to be spoiled but have they succeeded in the characterisation of the new characters?

  355. barak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    sadtrout: I was not being deliberately obtuse, what you care or don’t care about is actually not what everyone has to care or not care about, and you have to live with the fact that people will disagree with you and not love the show you love and can still watch it if they want to.
    You rude jerk.

    So we’re down to this, huh? You ask a queston – I answer – you reply with “la-la-la I can’t hear you but I’m still right and you’re wrong, deal with it!” And then you proceed to insult me. Okay…

  356. Atreyu
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    I think there would be a lot less hate for Cat in this world had she not been reduced to a quickie plot device to get the Lannisters and Starks fighting. Maybe that’s just me.

  357. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    barak,

    You totally didn’t insult me, right? Not at all, right.

  358. Jenny
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    B.M.:
    Jen,

    Thanks! Yeah, I don’t mean to imply that there aren’t still things to love and enjoy about the show — obviously I wouldn’t be watching if I truly thought that. But it’s increasingly clear to me that the showrunners have a different understanding than I do about where “complexity” is located in the world of asoiaf.

    Hurray to all your posts.
    But let me tell you this, you and the rest of the girls in here (like myself) are having the exact same issues as the female characters of the books. Men are simply not interested or don’t like to invest much thought on feminine topics, – hey, many of them even skip Sansa chapters and miss out on some of the most violent and crazy stuff as well as some crucial information, just because they can’t stand the girliness – hence they have never even seen the complexities that have attached our kind so deeply to those books…
    On the other hand, female readers do care for the male tropes, the bellistic tropes, the political tropes, the aesthetic ones and so forth.
    It is the eternal destiny and tragedy of women that men most of the time, just don’t care about what they think, not really, not when it comes down to it.

  359. Emily
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    This season sounds really good, which is not surprising considering they have great source material to work with.

    I’m pretty excited about seeing Olenna and the Marg/Cersei conflict that the article mentioned, since it’s something we didn’t get to see much (at this point at least) in the books due to the POV format and GoT tends to pull that off very well.

    The bit about Catelyn is worrying, as anything that is described “outright character assassination” should be. I’m going to hold out hope, which is probably pretty futile judging by D&D’s treatment of her thus far.

    Although the article doesn’t mention this, I hope they tone down Robb’s storyline because I felt like he was shoved down our throats a bit last season. I enjoyed his character in the first season, but I just felt he got two much focus in season 2.

    Has anyone else on here brought up the possibility of the change to Sam’s storyline being to do with Lord Commander Mormont’s death? (I didn’t read all 300 comments.) It seems likely since on the show the scouting party is a lot smaller so a full on riot would be seems unlikely. Idk this is all wild speculation I guess.

    I’m looking forward to Bran’s storyline and how they’ll portray it seeing as it’s not the sort of thing that lends itself too well to visual media. It’ll be interesting to see how Meera and Jojen earn Bran and the viewers’ trust despite coming in at a point at which Bran is a lot more vigilant due to being on the run and fake-dead.

    All in all, I’m hopeful though there will invariably be some plot points that I feel were badly handled, as there are on any show. Bringing them up doesn’t make me or anyone else a bad fan or a “book loyalist”.

  360. Pau Soriano
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    JamesL:
    fauxkaren,

    They haven’t emphasized her relationship with Jon on the show though. I don’t even think it has been brought up once in the show until whatever this monologue is about in S3 episode 2.It also should be pointed out that before people start raging on D&D for there writing of Catelyn that the episode this monologue occurs in was written by Vanessa Taylor.

    Vanessa Tayloe said that she hadn’t read the books after season 2 so go figure…

  361. Jake
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    Whoever keeps posting about how HBO is “butchering” Catelyn under different names and emails needs to get a life. Sorry, the majority isn’t going to agree with you. It’s sad you have to enforce your argument by pretending to be more than one person. Shows the depth of your character right there.

  362. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Jenny: Hurray to all your posts.
    But let me tell you this, you and the rest of the girls in here (like myself) are having the exact same issues as the female characters of the books. Men are simply not interested or don’t like to invest much thought on feminine topics, – hey, many of them even skip Sansa chapters and miss out on some of the most violent and crazy stuff as well as some crucial information, just because they can’t stand the girliness –hence they have never even seen the complexities that have attached our kind so deeply to those books…
    On the other hand, female readers do care for the male tropes, the bellistic tropes, the political tropes, the aesthetic ones and so forth.
    It is the eternal destiny and tragedy of women that men most of the time, just don’t care about what they think, not really, not when it comes down to it.

    Well I am a man and I love Sansa’s chapters for the raw emotional turmoil inside her as she faces horrible situations, I love Cersei’s chapters because her cold drama queen actics are terribly funny and enjoyable to read. Yeah, I agree most men miss the point on some of the female POVs.Cant relate to them at any level. I think LSD helps to broaden your mind about these things. Hehe.

  363. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Emily,

    the change with sam is Ghost saving him from that white walker

  364. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Atreyu,

    Perhaps…….. , but you’d have to dismiss Ned’s seeking knowledge of king Robert’s
    bastards, Cersei’s determination to murder her husband , and Renley starting
    his own campaign for the throne. The Northern bannermen would have raised
    ire or war, with the beheading of their liege lord, especially under suspicious
    circumstances. War was inevitable, but I respect your point of Caitlyn perceived
    as a catalyst , especially on screen. I’m not of that camp, having recognizing the
    different motivations, from whatever whatever region ( ravens are not to be
    compared with mobiles). Even with different factions unaware with the most
    recent events, war with the Lannisters and/or Kings Landing was inevitable.

  365. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Just listened to the ‘Firewall and Iceberg’ podcast on Hitfix. Both Sepinwall and Fienberg seemed to like the first 4 episodes a lot more than most of last year’s, even while Dan Fienberg(who has read the books) says he really enjoyed season 2. Both had high praise for Dany’s arc being lightyears better than last season. Sepinwall still is not really into Jon’s storyline, but concedes it may be more to due with Kit’s acting. Both have no idea what is happening with Theon. Fienberg admits that he really doesn’t remember what went on with Theon in the books, though. As I suspected, the reveal of the Bolton’s betrayal may be withheld early on. Sepinwall wishes the episodes didn’t touch on so many characters, but admits that with only 10 episodes he doesn’t really know of a solution to this issue. Fienberg asked Sepinwall what he thought of the Reeds, and he said he liked them. Overall, both are really entertained by the first four episodes.

  366. Emily
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Yago,

    Oh thanks for the info! Hmm I’m not too sure about the change. I was kinda looking forward to seeing Sam’s badass side come out :/

  367. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Emily,

    It doesn’t mean he won’t slay a white walker, that only happens after Mormont’s death in the book after all…

  368. Y
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Yawn. These comments are boring and repetative. Seriously, if the show makes you that mad maybe it might me a smart thing to stop watching. Calm the fuck down, I don’t think any of you want to die of a brain tumor before the age of 24.

  369. kd
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Yago,

    I thought it was confirmed as being Ghost saving Sam from a wight, not a whitewalker

  370. Tereeza777
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Here is what “Vikings” star Gustaf Skarsgard thinks of “Game of Thrones”. Gustaf plays “Floki”, an eccentric genius boat-builder, who at times looks more like a maniacal court jester – he’s the one with all the black eyeliner. Gustaf is the younger brother of Alex Skarsgard, star of “True Blood”, which IMO sucks :) The interview starts off in English, switches to Danish, then back to English at 1:26. At 4:33 he talks about Ireland and at 4:46 “Game of Thrones”. He is a big fan of GoT. Wish he could get a part in season 4 – any part – love him! And maybe brother Alex could be cast as Aegon.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjbQ-TvsFqQ

  371. Anguissette1979
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Sooooooooo… the Newsweek review has me pretty stoked for this season (not that I wasn’t already). It sounds like there are some book elements that I’ll miss (namely the reveal of Arstan/Barristan) but I understand why they’re making the changes and try to appreciate each medium independently.

    I am most excited for Dany’s storyline this season. She is my favorite character so while I wasn’t a huge fan of the way her S2 arc played out I am REALLY looking forward to S3.

    I have come to expect a “set up episode” out of the gate. I’ve been trying to avoid major spoilers for the content of each new episode (book reader for the last 16 years so I *know* what’s coming) though from the sound of FaB’s post that I couldn’t resist reading, this leisurely first episode might be the last time we get to take a breath all season. (SQUEE!)

    I, for one, am looking forward to any changes and streamlining that D&D do once we get out of ASOS territory.

    PS: I’m not a fan of either book!Cat or show!Cat. I’ve thought about where Westeros would be if she hadn’t captured Tyrion at the Inn. What events would never have happened? What events still would have occurred even without this catalyst?

    PPS: I am female and never outright skip, but often do not read as closely chapters for the “girly girls”. Sansa just does not interest me all that much. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

  372. Emily
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Yago,

    Oops sorry about the mix-up. It’s been a while since I’ve read the books after all.

    kd,

    I’m sure it was just a small mistake. The two are pretty similar so mixing them up is understandable :P

  373. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Jenny,

    Not in the least bit accurate as an assessment of male interest in the female
    scope of the story. GRRM has imbued interest in his female characters by
    employing heroines, protagonist , women that mirror common traits of
    intellect and political suffrage. Women were also objectified and lower
    caste women forced to prostitution. Unfortunately that was the state of affairs
    in medieval times. A fair amount of male readers get these points, many more
    see little Arya as a badass. Of all the men I know personally, all appreciate
    the strength of these women. I wouldn’t be disparaged by a few naked women
    onscreen, especially in scenes depicting the ASOIAF world, it was far worst
    being a little person or an inhabitant of Flea Bottom ( eating a bowl of brown ).

  374. WildSeed
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Tereeza777,

    Yes, this is interesting. Skarsgard was one of the few that held my interest in
    that show. I could easily picture him on GoT.

  375. The Kingplaya
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Phalange:
    People whining like little bitches already, I love it!

    If only there was a way to generate power from nerd-rage and the tears of film school drop-outs living in their parents’ basement, we’d have a sustainable source of energy for years.

    Buuurn. I laughed my ass of reading all these “ohmygodtheyruinedeverything” posts. And none of them even seen a single episode yet! hilarious.

  376. Yago
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    kd,

    Oh, yes, that’s possible too. Not sure. I hope so…

  377. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Jake,

    These are not all the same people.

    Something you might find interesting- I remember when Elio and Linda of Westeros.org were discussing the very first episodes of season 1 and how one (or both? I can’t remember) of them really didn’t like how Cat was being presented with some change. These are not rare and new opinions people are expressing. It’s a discussion worth having, since people are presenting so many different views. Why not? We’ve got a week to kill, may as well have some fun debate.

  378. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Anguissette1979:
    PS: I’m not a fan of either book!Cat or show!Cat. I’ve thought about where Westeros would be if she hadn’t captured Tyrion at the Inn. What events would never have happened? What events still would have occurred even without this catalyst?

    Westeros was in such a precarious position. It really would have descended into war in the first place. I mean Tywin sending Gregor into the Riverlands was such a massive overreaction. He was looking for an excuse for a fight.

  379. idkk
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Elio and Linda have said that while they think that the Cat monologue was a bad choice, they wouldn’t call it a “character assasination”. I personally think that Lacob through that out there to generate this firestorm of Cat defenders, pure link bait.

  380. Cal Van Hamacek
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    I think the show is fabulously well written. Being an actor, I would be just as thrilled to play one of these complex human beings as a Shakespearean character. Ok… Objectively, it is rated just behind the wire on imdb, with I think a 9.6? I think some of the plot arcs through the seasons are even better than some o the wire’s. I think Robb’s story arc is more interesting the Cutty Wise’s. Just as I think Theon’s and Stannis’ are right up there with the fantastic Schoolyard storyline with Naymond, Duquan, Randy and Michael. Just my thoughts there. I understand some peoples’ concerns, but I for one Look forward to the new season, and will savor every moment of it.

  381. Dexterized
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    About the Sam Tarly disappointment…someone watched the first episode and was answering questions about on IMDb. They said that Sam doesn’t stab the Other in the woods, like he does in the books. He’s actually saved by two (or more?) of his companions and Ghost (who for some reason is not with Jon).

    And I can definitely see how that would be disappointing.

  382. sadtrout
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    idkk,

    We were irritated long before Jace Lacob’s article, it’s just that he is the first mainstream GoT critic/journalist that actually called attention to the show’s purported mishandling of Catelyn at all. I also find it hard to believe that Jace Lacob is so preoccupied with Cat fans that that would be included just for us. The strength of Lacob’s words isn’t what got my attention, it’s the fact that Lacob mentioned it at all as a clear negative in a fairly high profile review.

  383. Anguissette1979
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    fauxkaren: Westeros was in such a precarious position. It really would have descended into war in the first place.

    Oh, I agree. I just wonder what would the war have looked like? IIRC Tywin sends The Mountain to ravage the Riverlands in retribution for Cat capturing Tyrion. So say Cat doesn’t take Tyrion… Tywin never releases The Mountain, which means Ned never sends Beric after him. I mean, Ned would have still followed Jon Arryn’s trail. He would have likely been arrested for treason and been sent to The Wall, since Robert would have still likely been alive and never would have executed Ned. Cersei might have still had Robert killed but perhaps not with the timing that she did… and so on and so forth. I just think it’s fun to hypothesize!

    All that being said, we would have a very different story had Cat not done what she did so I’m glad for it in that respect, but I suppose I do blame her to an extent for some of the Stark-specific circumstances that came up. Robb would have never had to deal with Walder Frey and ultimately make THE bad decision had Mom not gone first.

  384. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    Have you guys seen this preview:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQTNi74GdmM

    Alot of cgi shots there, maybe a little faky but pretty epic.

  385. Anguissette1979
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Markus,

    Nice find! MOAR DWAGONS! I don’t want to watch too many promos – I want to be surprised by some things – but I swear that I am incapable of stopping!

  386. Darquemode
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    Tereeza777,

    Interesting thanks!

    Trying to imagine who he could play.. Maybe one of the young Ironborn lords like Baelor Blacktyde (maybe Baelor is a bit older?)….. or perhaps the young Botley who supports Asha/ Yara. What was his name …Tristofer?

    As for Alxander, I can see him as Gerris Drinkwater easily.
    “Gerris is tall and lean and comely, with blue-green eyes and sandy hair. He has a swordsman’s grace and a courtier’s wit. His confidence often close to arrogance”…
    Yes, I can see him as Gerris! XD

  387. Matthew Jam
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Ah yes, the week before the premiere, we’ve all been waiting for the past year to see this, tempers are frayed, people are getting worried and terrified and angry about a few words here and there. Let’s try and hold it together, people!

  388. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Markus: Fire and blood could you rank the following “story arcs” from best to worst so far:

    Gladly:

    Daenerys
    Jaime/Brienne
    Kings Landing
    Sam and the Night’s Watch
    Arya and the BwB
    Jon and the Wildlings
    Stannis
    Theon

  389. Mike Chair
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Markus: I just wonder what would the war have looked like? [If Cat didn't take Tyrion at the Crossroads]

    Boy, what a butterfly effect that would be. No Bronn. No Bronn means no chain (Book only) and no Shae. Bronn goes through ASOS Tyrion IX and we know what Shae does. Also, no Shagga! Isn’t there a rock band named Shagga Likes Axes? So, there wouldn’t be that either.

    That was weird. I was trying to quote Anguissette1979.

  390. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Jake:
    Whoever keeps posting about how HBO is “butchering” Catelyn under different names and emails needs to get a life. Sorry, the majority isn’t going to agree with you. It’s sad you have to enforce your argument by pretending to be more than one person. Shows the depth of your character right there.

    They are all different people. I know most of them from Tumblr.

  391. Jen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    No Theon in the first FOUR episodes?? NOOOOO MY HEART!!! Seriously, though, is this true, or were they just not paying attention? haha

  392. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Skarsgård could only play Jamie Lannister, but we got someone better IMO.

    Gustaf Skarsgård on the other hand is actually more talented and can do many kind of characters (I have seen him do absolutely everything in swedish movies).

    Problem with GOT is that there are few characters in their 30s, all major players seem to be either middle aged or in their teens/20s.

  393. pntrlqst
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Where does Robb and Bran fit into that?

  394. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Does Stannis only appear in the first episode, or is he in any of the other 3? And what is your opinion of the Reeds so far?

  395. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: Gladly:

    Daenerys
    Jaime/Brienne
    Kings Landing
    Sam and the Night’s Watch
    Arya and the BwB
    Jon and the Wildlings
    Stannis
    Theon

    Thank you, I forgot to include the Bran storyline. Anyway, it worries me that they screw up Ramsey’s character, because they are inventing his storyline from scratch instead of letting a great storyteller like George introduce him properly, have they dealt with revealing why Winterfell burned to the ground?.

  396. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    Supposedly he is in at least 2 episodes, but they said it was very confusing. Sepinwall seemed to think instead of splitting up the few scenes he has over a couple of episodes that they could have just had it as one longer scene.

  397. Jen
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Ok, *phew* … whatevs, I’m obsessed with Theon and that storyline, so maybe it won’t be confusing … not to mention that the original book storyline in ACOK was hella confusing the first time around. I HAVE FAITH.

  398. Anguissette1979
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair: Boy, what a butterfly effect that would be.

    Right? Yes, the tension in the kingdom was palpable already but that one act set a specific string of events into play that otherwise would have never happened.

    That being said, it would be a travesty to live in a world without Shagga Likes Axes concerts…

  399. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Y’all,

    Robb’s storyline would be placed somewhere right in the middle. Bran slightly higher.

    The Reeds are cool. Love Jojen. Oh, and if people thought “Branra” was a weird shipping thing, wait’ll you see “Branjen.” I’m calling it here. Tumblr may well go berserk.

    Stannis is in the first episode. But he doesn’t have the dialogue he was given last year.

    I’m not entirely sold on the Theon stuff, which is a shame, being that his arc was so brilliant last year. It’s not BAD per se, I just thought it could be better. Who knows though, it could turn around and finish fantastically.

  400. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Markus,

    The dragons of the books wouldn’t need to flap their wings nearly as much to maintain proper altitude. Fuck this show.

  401. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Anguissette1979,

    The butterfly effect would have been extreme, but I think we can say that Ned wouldn’t have shattered his leg, Joey would have lived,the war wouldn’t have demolished the Netherlands the same way,and the war itself would be delayed.

  402. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, Fire and Blood.

    I should be able to just wait and see but was getting anxious to know beforehand if they screwed up any favorite storyline. I find the low position of Jon Snow’s story very worrying, it is my favorite Jon Snow arc and should be ranked up there with Daenarys, makes me wonder if it is Kit Harrington who screws up Jon’s inner turmoil? Theon+Ramsey is only worrysome if they screw up the whole character, I mean Ramsey. So even if the plot doesnt work I need the character to be spot on. Also, is Roose Bolton properly introduced?

  403. Joe
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    About Sam, isn’t it more likely they are saving his slaying of the White Walker until later in the season? In the books, he kills both a Walker and a wight. Perhaps they thought it best to have Sam barely escape with his life in the first encounter and then when’s he’s forced to defend himself again, he finally kills it. THAT would make a lot of sense and fit well within a television format. Don’t forget, the dragonglass has already been introduced. So it’s got to be used.

  404. sunspear
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Dexterized,

    Does he say whether that happens during the battle? They might just be pushing that back.

  405. Turncloak
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Dexterized:
    About the Sam Tarly disappointment…someone watched the first episode and was answering questions about on IMDb. They said that Sam doesn’t stab the Other in the woods, like he does in the books. He’s actually saved by two (or more?) of his companions and Ghost (who for some reason is not with Jon).

    And I can definitely see how that would be disappointing.

    I find this awesome! Grenn and Dolores ftw! And Ghost!!! Hopefully we still get Sam the Slayer later on

  406. Virtus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Dexterized:
    About the Sam Tarly disappointment…someone watched the first episode and was answering questions about on IMDb. They said that Sam doesn’t stab the Other in the woods, like he does in the books. He’s actually saved by two (or more?) of his companions and Ghost (who for some reason is not with Jon).

    And I can definitely see how that would be disappointing.

    That same IMDB poster also later said that it was actually a wight, not an Other. The Other-slaying could be in a later episode.

  407. Virtus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    Markus,

    The dragons of the books wouldn’t need to flap their wings nearly as much to maintain proper altitude. Fuck this show.

    U mad bro?

  408. Delta1212
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Wu:
    Holy crap. If this explosion of bitterness and hostility and doom-and-gloom is how you guys react to a 90% positive review, I don’t want to be around to see the fallout to an actual negative review. It might melt down the internet.

    Positive review: Freak out and critisize the show.
    Negative review: Freak out and criticize the reviewer.

  409. thisone
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    After reading 1500 comments on this website about how great everything is, I welcome the occasional criticism. Yes, some of it is pure speculation, but speculation is a huge part of this website.

    This thread actually got interesting, esp. because of the comments about Catelyn. Stop calling people whiners and stop your own whining.

    That said, I hope I don’t upset anyone when I speculate that this is going to be the best season yet.

  410. Winterlarks
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Catelyn has been a polarizing subject today. Though I have read the books, generally I have been trying to be open-minded about D&D’s crafting of the show. Some of the postings have been interesting, maybe worrisome, but I will want to see season 3 through to it’s end before forming an opinion of the way D&D chose to write and present their version of GRRM’s story.

    The suggestion of making Catelyn likable gave me pause. And so, I wondered this: Will D&D have Catelyn murder Aegon during the RW? His murder by her hand was brutal, primal, and he was a helpless, innocent, differently-abled child. Presenting the spectrum of what it means to be human is interesting and real and worth pondering.

  411. Astonished
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    It would not have been the first time a character had been assassinated on this show. If not by a blade, then by the dialog or the directing. And yet the show still airs.

    If I am wrong, as I usually am, then the show is perfect and does not exist.

    So rejoice. And stop feeling so defensive. Your community’s all you got once the thrill of buying the plastic blue ray discs wears off.

  412. Bolan
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Without revealing too much, has Iwan Rheon appeared yet in any capacity?

  413. boyo71
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    The Wire didn’t win any awards…

  414. Josh
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Not sure if this has been mentioned but couldn’t the reviewer just be talking about how Cat does not want to have Jon be the heir of Winterfell? Doesn’t she do that in the book? She doesn’t say kind words about Jon there…and because it can’t be a monologue in her head, they need to voice her actual fears of Jon, which are irrational but makes sense in terms of Catlynn as a mother. I think people need to calm down.

    Do I think Cat is one of the weakest in the adaption in terms of character growth..Yes, they sort of took out a lot of her strength but Michelle does a terrific job, so I think we should all calm down until we know what’s up.

  415. Critical Geek
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    ” In fact, several shocking revelations within the novels are seemingly spelled out for the viewer rather than left until later to unfurl as major plot twists.”

    This has been my major complaint about the series all along. It’s not surprising that it continues through season 3. I’ve always felt that “the series kind of spoils the books” rather than the other way around. If there is one thing that the show runners are failing at, it’s keeping surprises surprising, leaving only the largest twists remaining at all.

  416. feyrband
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    All I know is that so far Catelyn isn’t Lori/Andrea/Skylar/Betty Draper and I’m thankful for that.

  417. Ser Pounce
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    I think the fact that he said it’s the best season yet should be highlighted. Most relevant quote for comparative purposes

  418. fauxkaren
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    feyrband,

    But Betty and Skyler are fabulous! (lol I don’t know who the other two are, but yeah.) Queen Skyler forever! The real hero of Breaking Bad! And Betty is a wonderful character. Or well she was. The writing on the show has been letting her down in recent years.

  419. steiner
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood:

    If you don’t mind me asking, what didn’t you like about Jon’s storyline?

    The only significant disappointment I had with Season 2 was Jon – and Kit Harrington’s portrayal of him. (Although I quite liked him in Season 1). Is it still disappointing or do you expect it to get better soon?

  420. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    whiningfangirl,

    whiningfangirl:
    sadtrout,

    The action girl trope seems to be one of the only ways that fans can appreciate a female character. By all accounts the majority of women in Westeros aren’t like Arya, Asha, and Brienne. They have to protect themselves and their families within the constraints of a sexist political system that denies them the use armor and swords. Women like Catelyn, Sansa, Margaery, Roslin, Jeyne etc aren’t less interesting or strong because they don’t slit throats. They are very interesting in and of themselves. The “I’m not like other girls” thing they pulled with Talisa is irritating. And it only serves to put more emphasis on Robb and pull it away from Catelyn. Not to mention Robb’s reason for marryingJeyne was a lot more understandable.

    See, I think the show has done a very nice job of giving us women who fall in various parts of the continuum in terms of their use of violence vs. cunning vs. honor vs. underhandedness. I don’t see how it can be said that Brienne represents something everyone “knows” already given how much the writers and Gwendoline Christie have done to make it clear she adheres to a code that won’t have her (other than the strangely politically forward-thinking Renly) and just how uncomfortable she is with her body – and her anguish when Renly is killed, and how important it was that she made or did not make an emotional connection with him. “I only held him that one time.” And the same goes for Catelyn — who impresses Brienne with her controlled nature. And their scene together — where she pledges fealty to Cat and Cat agrees to honor her and give her a place in her home — is just so pivotal and well-handled (it makes me verklempt). It gives you an amazing, wonderful picture of two very different women doing anything they can to survive.

    Talisa’s brusque nature is of a piece with Shae — who is, too, able to go through the world using her wits. Sure, she falls into the archetype of a prostitute, but that doesn’t define her, too (see Baelor, where she foils Tyrion’s attempts to read her, mostly through cliches).

    And still I fail to buy the whole bit about Jeyne and the honor thing. What would have been more honorable? Not sleeping with her in the first place.

  421. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Change in direction if someone wants it, Myles McNutt just posted his review.

    http://cultural-learnings.com/2013/03/25/review-game-of-thrones-season-3/

    Will non-reader fans gradually drop off because of the fragmented story lines that began in season 2? Or will it keep them watching just to savour their very character for an instant?

  422. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    That was a strange review. He’s basically saying he loved it, but isn’t sure if non-book readers will love it, even though they have gobbled it up thus far. Should we, as fans of the books and show, take this as a positive? I don’t think the fragmented approach to the show will ever change. The cast is too big and seasons are too short for this to happen. IMO.

  423. Hot Pie Hole
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Mariana,
    Although I couldn’t agree with you more- the one character that has been most mischaracterized by this adaptation of ASOFAI is Catelyn- she does actually warn Robb about seeking an alliance with Balon Greyjoy in the show- in no uncertain terms.

    I think the thing the show gets right about Cat, however, is the reader’s/viewer’s general ambivalence about the character. For all of Cat’s good and righteous intentions and courage throughout the novels, she frankly makes some very bad choices that ultimately lead to a further escalation of animosities and ultimately to a further endangering of her family. I feel that this very integral quality of Catelyn’s character has been retained in the show. Just my two cents.

  424. Markus
    Posted March 25, 2013 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    I think the only option is to flesh out each episode to be 70-80 mins. .

  425. King Tommen
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    A couple notes that I think should be addressed that I’ve seen on this thread:

    Remember that all of these critics have only seen the 1st four episodes so any plotline they are referring to is only been dramatized up to that point:

    For example, the “big change” that Lace refers to with Sam that he thinks readers will be angry with is that Sam doesn’t slay a Walker on his trip in the snow back to Crasters. We know that he doesn’t encounter a Walker at all but a wight, who is taken out by the NW and Ghost at the last minute. But based on the footage from the trailers, there is another scene where Sam is clearly being stalked by a Walker in the woods (not the snows of Iceland) and he looks to have Gilly with him which means that he will almost assuredly have his Slayer moment but it won’t be until closer to the end of the season. So knowing that, it’s not really that much of a change at all and in fact, having him protecting Gilly and finally being forced to stand up for himself after watching the carnage at Craster’s is probably going to be a smarter dramatic choice than the way things go in the books. So it’s not really the issue that Lace makes it out to be, he just doesn’t know what’s coming because he’s not inhaling every single second of footage the way some of us are.

    In terms of Jon’s story not being captivating thusfar, remember where he’s at got to by this point. E5 is “Kissed by Fire” which is presumably where he gets with Ygritte in the cave so this means that the first 4 episodes basically have him meeting Mance and hanging out with the Wildlings. He hasn’t had his sexytime, he hasn’t scaled the Wall and there’s no Queenscrown or trip back to Castle Black. He hasn’t really done anything yet so it’s little wonder that some critics aren’t enamored with his story so far. If they still aren’t after the next few episodes, then there’s a problem.

    Finally, the critics are confused about Theon’s storyline thusfar probably because they are going to be stretching it out until the Ramsay reveal late in the season closer to the RW. The reason the show needs to do this is because unlike the books, they’ve linked Ramsay with Roose (because Roose explicitly vouched for his son when telling Robb he’d retake Winterfell). So as soon as the Theon (and the audience) is aware that it’s Ramsay is the one who is holding him and who sacked Winterfell, then the audience will immediately clue in to the fact that Roose is a traitor. You can’t do that too early so hence the whole Theon storyline will be shrouded in mystery (where he is, who is holding him) until it’s time for the RW to occur. That’s why the S2 finale at Winterfell was so ambiguous. They’re drawing out the mystery of what happened there until the right time.

  426. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Joshua Taylor,

    That was a strange review. He’s basically saying he loved it, but isn’t sure if non-book readers will love it, even though they have gobbled it up thus far.Should we, as fans of the books and show, take this as a positive? I don’t think the fragmented approach to the show will ever change. The cast is too big and seasons are too short for this to happen. IMO.

    Agreed. Very strange review. “I liked it, but don’t know if everyone else will like it. So, um…yeah. Plus, donuts taste good.”

  427. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    King Tommen: Finally, the critics are confused about Theon’s storyline thusfar probably because they are going to be stretching it out until the Ramsay reveal late in the season closer to the RW. The reason the show needs to do this is because unlike the books, they’ve linked Ramsay with Roose (because Roose explicitly vouched for his son when telling Robb he’d retake Winterfell). So as soon as the Theon (and the audience) is aware that it’s Ramsay is the one who is holding him and who sacked Winterfell, then the audience will immediately clue in to the fact that Roose is a traitor.

    Ehhh…

    But…the sacking of Winterfell happens prior to Robb breaking his oath with the Freys (in the books at least…), and therefore before Roose or anyone else would have reason to betray him. I’m pretty sure that was just the Bastard being a bastard rather than some coordinated plot with Roose.

  428. Staunch
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    So I just read through this entire thread. Wow. My two cents:

    - I watched the show first and then I read the books and then rewatched the show and went back to the books. I loved the show. I loved the books a lot more.

    - I don’t mind that the show changes aspects of the books. I do mind when the changes change the characters or don’t trust the audience or are just lazy.

    - I didn’t mind that Arya was with Tywin instead of Roose. I did mind that she didn’t kill someone to escape from Harrenhall.

    - I didn’t mind that Robb doesn’t marry Jeyne Westerling and that the story changed. I did mind that they made Talisa, an olive skinned, brown-haired, brown-eyed woman, a Volantene. That was just lazy. If they said she was from Lorath or Qohor or something, I would have been OK with it. Lazy lazy lazy.

    - I don’t mind that Tyrion is much more handsome in the show than in the books. I do mind that they’ve softened his edges and made him a clear “good guy” in the show. That’s not trusting the audience. Tyrion threatened to rape Tommen in ACOK! They should’ve kept that in. Same with Arya. They don’t want the audience to have conflicting feelings about the main characters. I disagree with that decision by B&W.

    - It’s unfair to show-only fans for book-readers to simply criticize the show because it deviates from book because show-only fans have no response to that. I think that if you want to criticize decisions the show makes, it has to be in context with the challenges (and benefits) of the TV medium. If your suggestion about how the show could’ve been more loyal to the books indicates more money or time being spent, then it’s not a good criticism because the nature of a 550 hour season means that things will be cut, moved out of order, and changed to fit the time and budget.

    - Show fans have to understand that to book fans, these characters are established. If you took Mickey Mouse and painted him white and gave him a deep voice, he wouldn’t be Mickey Mouse anymore. It’s not a matter of someone interpreting Mickey Mouse different. It’s just not Mickey anymore. When the show makes deviations that change the nature of the characters, book readers take it personally, as a Mickey Mouse fan would take it personally if someone tried to pass off some faux-Mickey. If the show does that too much (which some book fans are afraid will happen), then it’s no longer an adaptation and D&W should have made their own show with their own story and characters.

    - That said, I love the show. I cringe at some changes. I get used to others. Many don’t bother me at all. I’m glad the show was made because without it, I know I’d have never have read the books, which are among the best books I’ve ever read. Sadly, we’re shortly getting to the point where if you haven’t read the books by now, the show might hurt your enjoyment of the books if you begin reading them after this season.

    P.S. : I still cannot get over how badly the Talisa thing was set up, BUT, someone made posted this video today, and if D&W do something like this, it will redeem them entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

  429. Myles McNutt
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber: Agreed. Very strange review. “I liked it, but don’t know if everyone else will like it. So, um…yeah. Plus, donuts taste good.”

    How do you know my opinion on donuts? ARE YOU INSIDE MY BRAIN?

    As I noted in the review, I’m aware that’s a weird sentiment to base a review on, but as this comment thread indicates there’s something about this show that draws out the personal nature of criticism, in that my response will not be identical to others who aren’t in the same position. Since I’m not writing for a publication that would force me to state a clear, journalistic opinion, I chose to write more of a think piece in reflecting on the impact of the continued fragmentation as the show moves forward.

    The show’s good! Jace’s issue with the Catelyn moment seems unfounded to me (although I’d need to rewatch to see if I missed something after he responded so strongly to it). We’ll have more interesting conversations once everyone’s seen the episodes.

  430. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    Myles McNutt,

    Thank you so kindly for the clarification! By the way that Mittell Link was fabulous. Took me back to film school. I forwarded the link to several reluctant to watch GoT friends o’ mine and one of them responded with a succinct “I may have to watch this”. Keep up the good work.

  431. Luana
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    sadtrout,

    Give the show time, and stop making judgements at the earliest convenience. As a reader, you would have never guessed that Jaime would redeem himself so ably when you finished ACoK, right?

    This statement is just amazing to me, and illustrates how people can react in completely opposite ways to the same words written on a page. First I should check: have you read all five books? Because if so, I don’t understand at all how you can think that Jaime has redeemed himself. In fact, my opinion of him went from ambivalence and mild interest to disgust and hatred when he abandoned his sister, who was not only family, but the woman he was supposed to love, when she needed him most. How can you possibly excuse him for burning Cersei’s letter and throwing her to the wolves? Any small signs that Jaime’s character might eventually be redeemed were stomped into complete oblivion in that scene. I can’t see how anyone could continue to think Jaime is on a redemption arc after this act of pure, callous, spiteful evil. I’d ask you to explain your statement further, but really, when you read something and get “white” and I read something and get “black”, I suppose there’s no point in even trying to bridge the gap.

  432. Joshua Taylor
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Staunch,

    Yes yes yes! If this pans out this way it would be amazing, loyalty to the books or not.

    Also consider that the first time Robb meets Talisa, he is walking slightly behind Roose, suggesting that Bolton was… leading him to her.

  433. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    …yes. “White” and “black” indeed.

    Holy cow lol. That was one of many acts proving he was no longer the man he was when we were first introduced to him. The man who callously threw a child out of a window.

    He is definitely redeeming himself by abandoning Cersei, who he realizes is not as true to him as he had been to her, and did not truly love him (she’s fucking Lancel and Osmynd Kettleblack and probably Moonboy for all I know). He would have been stupid to rush to her aid. His eyes are open.

  434. Staunch
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    Seriously? Jaime abandoning Cersei was the major step in his redemption. Cersei used Jaime her entire life to get what she wanted. She used his love for her to manipulate him. He thought she loved him, but she never did. He took the vows to be on the KG just so he could be close to her when/if she married Rhaegar, only to be made a fool of by Aerys. He tried to kill Bran because he knew that if the incest got out, Cersei, Joff, Tommen and Myrcella were as good as dead. He was always being used and manipulated by Cersei and Tywin. It wasn’t until he got his hand lopped off that he finally got agency over his life and became a proper Kingsguard and tried to do the right thing. After Tywin died Cersei tried to manipulate him again first with sex, and then by putting him down and insulting him. Cersei is the ruin of Jaime. He has given her everything he has and she would always want more.

  435. Luana
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    Luana,

    …yes. “White” and “black” indeed.

    Holy cow lol. That was one of many acts proving he was no longer the man he was when we were first introduced to him. The man who callously threw a child out of a window.


    He is definitely redeeming himself by abandoning Cersei, who he realizes is not as true to him as he had been to her, and did not truly love him (she’s fucking Lancel and Osmynd Kettleblack and probably Moonboy for all I know). He would have been stupid to rush to her aid. His eyes are open.

    Wow, Zack, really? So you think that Cersei didn’t truly love Jaime because she was using sex as a weapon to exercise power in the only way available to her in a misogynistic society? What does the fact that she was sleeping with other people for political purposes have to do with her love for Jaime? Nothing. The fact that Jaime doesn’t understand this shows him to be shallow and petty and unintelligent and not worthy of Cersei’s love. Zack, do you really believe that abandoning your sister to death because you’re peeved with her is a good thing? That it is a sign of character “redemption”? Seriously? WTF?

  436. Staunch
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    Cersei never loved Jaime. Cersei loves power. She used Jaime when he was useful and abandoned him when he was useless. Forget even about screwing Kettleblack. When Aurane waters was useful to her, she was thinking about how attractive he was and what not. Jaime always did whatever Cersei asked and she asked for more. Cersei was entirely bat-shit crazy in her AFFC chapters. Every decision she made was wrong and in her deluded mind she thought she was being brilliant. Everyone in King’s Landing saw how nuts she was becoming. Kevan saw it and refused to be Hand. Jaime saw it and when he refused to be part of her idiotic schemes, she threw everything back at his face. Jaime didn’t abandon his sister. Cersei put herself in an impossible position because she’s bonkers. Cersei found Jaime attractive when he looked like her, as she always brought up. When he had a beard and lost his hand, she lost her taste for him because he wasn’t a reflection of her anymore. Cersei only loved Cersei. As you said, Cersei uses sex as a way of manipulation and control. That includes Jaime. Jaime doesn’t want to be manipulated and controlled anymore. Good for him.

  437. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:01 am | Permalink
  438. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    steiner: If you don’t mind me asking, what didn’t you like about Jon’s storyline?

    The only significant disappointment I had with Season 2 was Jon – and Kit Harrington’s portrayal of him. (Although I quite liked him in Season 1). Is it still disappointing or do you expect it to get better soon?

    I don’t think I disliked it per se. Orel seems cool, and Hinds as Mance Rayder was pretty believable, though I wish they had given him a lute. And I wish they had utilized the guy playing Styr (is he Styr if he still has his ears?) in any way rather than as some glowering dude in the background. They could have given Styr Tormund’s lines, and let Tormund be Tormund.

    So it’s one of those scenes where I go, “Well that was decent, but it could have been much better.”

    Seeing a giant at scale was pretty neat.

  439. TheLightningLord
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    The sack of Winterfell took place in Chapter 66. We learn of Robb breaking his oath in Arya’s tenth chapter (book chapter 64) when her betrothed (which is one of my favorite little moments in the books) states that the Freys have been dishonored. So the sack happened after Robb married Jeyne.

    I think….I don’t know with the time differences

  440. Bryan Cogman
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    That ain’t Styr.

    B

  441. Rhys
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Could you please give some relatively non-spoilers details regarding what it is about theon’s storyline that you don’t like because his is the one I’m most interested in seeing play out simply due to the fact that it is pretty much completely new material.

  442. Luana
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:44 am | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga,

    Hey, thanks for proving me right!

  443. Luana
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    Staunch,

    Even if all of that is true…and I strongly disagree that Cersei doesn’t love Jaime, among other things…the point is that Jaime abandoned his sister when she needed him most. Having no loyalty to your own family, abandoning a sibling, no matter the current status of your relationship, to face death alone, can never be a sign of good character, or a redeeming quality. It’s a small-minded act of spite, and shows that Jaime will never be the “true knight” he’d dreamed of being as a child, after all. The tragedy, is, I suppose, that when he finally does gain some agency, as you pointed out, he makes such a selfish, childish, and dishonourable choice.

  444. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    Luana: Cersei didn’t truly love Jaime because she was using sex as a weapon to exercise power in the only way available to her in a misogynistic society?

    Oh I guess Cersei isn’t Queen Regent or anything. Maybe I should re-read.

    TheLightningLord,

    Eehh..hm. Yeah. The various chapters aren’t all taking place chronologically or anything like that, but apparently it’s more ambiguous than I had been thinking. Thanks for the refresher.

  445. Luana
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 3:24 am | Permalink

    Zack: Maybe I should re-read.

    Maybe you should.

  446. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman:
    Fire And Blood,

    That ain’t Styr.

    B

    Bro, it totally is.

    Okay, it probably isn’t. But it is Silent Nameless Dude With An Egg-Shaped Head.

    And an axe.

    Either way, I thought Tormund would have been better served as That HAR! Guy rather than as a grumbling straight man. But I’m hoping we see more Tormund out of Tormund in coming episodes. We only got a little in the first four.

  447. kindley man
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: This is all hugely interesting for me, and I’m being completely honest. I love debate.I have seen the episode(s) in question. I am in almost total agreement with Jace’s review (so much so that I need to figure out how to re-word what I have already written for an upcoming TVEquals review of the first 4 episodes lest my words border on plagiarism). SPOILERS (OBVIOUSLY) below:I think the first episode is a little slow. There’s a lot of catching up to do, so there is more than a little “let’s explain where we are” in the dialogue. So by its very nature it’s going to be a bit rough-hewn. Also, I wasn’t a huge fan of HBO’s vision of Tormund — I prefer the never-ruffled boisterous guy from the books rather than the Angry Biker we meet. Some people didn’t like the fact that we got no Arya, no Jaime and Brienne, but I’m actually a fan of not cramming every character into one episode. But there’s still plenty of good. Dany’s dragons (which most of you have seen in various previews) are so well done–and are basically becoming scary as shit. Yes, there is no “Arstan Whitebeard,” but having that name serves nothing, as we the audience can spot Ian McIlhenny under that beard almost immediately. I loved his intro–loved everything, in fact, about Dany’s story. Daenerys is one of the stars of ASoS, and she is served exceedingly well here.I do see how fans of Catelyn could be irked by her discussion (with Talisa of all people) about Jon Snow. The scene revolves around how Cat once prayed for Jon Snow, who was extremely ill, promising the Seven (or the Mother) that if he was allowed to live, she would try to treat him more fairly, and even suggest to Ned that he should legitimize Jon. She did this because she knew how his death would affect Ned, who she loved. She admits to Talisa that once he recovered she was not able to do that, and sees it as one of her great failings.It feels like, to me, the writers wanted to somehow make amends for the hate Cat gets by making her a little more sympathetic to Jon Snow fans, yet it really only succeeds in underlining some of the changes that have irked many people. Now let me say this: The scene is not as egregious as some of the season 2 changes. Could Cat have had this discussion with, say, Jeyne Westerling? Quite possibly. It doesn’t contradict anything really, other than maybe adding some regret for her treatment of him. Could Cat have had moments where she didn’t hate Jon Snow? I think so, because, as some people have pointed out, Cat’s defining characteristics don’t revolve around Jon Snow. So logically that makes sense. Only in the context of the scene does it feel like: This Is All About Jon.Now you could argue, “Her even considering legitimizing Jon Snow goes against everything she believes,” and you might have a case. But I suspect they are setting up an even bigger confrontation with Robb, where this conflict in her heart just won’t budge, making for a more visceral performance by Madden and Fairley. At least I hope.Anyway, that happens in the second episode, which is stronger than the first. The third is stronger than the second (and ends with a OMG moment that you expect but still—-you’re still like O.O when it hits) … … and the 4th episode is even better than than the third, and is easily one of the greatest GoT episode of all time.

    Thanks FaB, you got me pumped for the season. From now i’m joining the broherhood without previews

  448. Fire And Blood
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    Rhys:
    Fire And Blood,

    Could you please give some relatively non-spoilers details regarding what it is about theon’sstoryline that you don’t like because his is the one I’m most interested in seeing play out simply due to the fact that it is pretty much completely new material.

    Well that’s hard to quantify, because I didn’t dislike them much, if at all. I don’t know. Iwan’s hair looked weirdly dyed? That feels like splitting hairs.

    Splitting… hares. Eeeeheheheheheheee!

    It could have been in how they were filmed. They felt pretty conventional I guess? Like they could have done these weirdly framed, trippy scenes — something creepily intimate. I would have made it more … I dunno. I would have pushed a few envelopes with the Theon / Ramsay dynamic, especially being that these are all original (or only-alluded to) scenes. As it was they were fine. Nothing was “wrong” at all. I just was hoping for different.

  449. Maudy Pond
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    starkfish:
    I, for one, am being tired of being told to ‘wait and see’ in regards to Catelyn’s character – I’ve ‘waited and seen’ for two seasons now, and all B&W have shown is that they don’t understand her character or the entire northern storyline AT ALL (hint: it’s not All About Robb Stark, Actual Fantasy Hero). I’m glad that some publication is acknowledging the total hack job they’ve done on her character (among others, but she’s my favorite, so there we go) and I expect the awfulness to continue in season 3 (hint: Catelyn Stark is about more than her relationship with Jon Snow, it is not the most interesting part of her character).

    The fact that they completely subverted Catelyn’s anti-war agenda into ‘yeah! vengeance and Killing Them All!” means they are completely undermining a MAJOR theme of the books in general (and not just Catelyn’s storyline).

    The other things don’t give me much hope, either – I’m sure Littlefinger will continue to be over-the-top-mustache-twirling-villain-look-here-are-all-my-plots-with-footnotes-lol-mock-u-about-ur-incest because B&W wouldn’t know foreshadowing if it ran up and bit them (actually, they think that everyone needs about that level of obviousness to understand the plot so…). I wouldn’t be surprised if they took away ‘Sam the Slayer’ because we need more room for Jon Snow and Robb Stark to be OMG Total Badasses 5Eva.

    This adaptation has some beautiful settings and costumes and it is EXTREMELY well cast, but the writing, I just can’t get behind. They took everything I enjoyed about the books and made it basic as hell. “Oh, I know all of these common fantasty archetypes and tropes are supposed to be inverted, but wouldn’t it be cool if we played them completely straight instead??” This review, and the cast interviews coming out, give me little hope for season 3. Maybe I’ll tune in for the penultimate episode this season. Maybe.

    This, this all of this. I am terrified for season 3 and already mourning my beloved character…. :(

  450. Frey Pie
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,
    How are the new characters-Blackfish,Edmure,Ramsay,Reeds,QoT,etc?

  451. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 6:35 am | Permalink

    Myles McNutt: How do you know my opinion on donuts? ARE YOU INSIDE MY BRAIN?

    As I noted in the review, I’m aware that’s a weird sentiment to base a review on, but as this comment thread indicates there’s something about this show that draws out the personal nature of criticism, in that my response will not be identical to others who aren’t in the same position. Since I’m not writing for a publication that would force me to state a clear, journalistic opinion, I chose to write more of a think piece in reflecting on the impact of the continued fragmentation as the show moves forward.

    The show’s good! Jace’s issue with the Catelyn moment seems unfounded to me (although I’d need to rewatch to see if I missed something after he responded so strongly to it). We’ll have more interesting conversations once everyone’s seen the episodes.

    Hahahaha. It was a good review. And bravo for always putting yourself out there — while I hide behind anonymity. Thanks for the clarification and forgive me my trespasses.

  452. Ser Lemon Cakes
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    And here I was being engrossed in the Cat discussion when FaBio had to reduce me to fits of giggles with his Branjen. Never change WIC.net!

  453. Kirsten
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    .

  454. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    Why should family be so special if you’ve realized, or at least think, that the family member never really treated you like family? When he came back and didn’t do exactly as she wanted she turned on him and shunned him away instead with no remorse. Now that she suddenly needs him the tone was completely different, which is an obvious example of her poor attempt at manipulating him to her needs, as she’s always done (even when she had feelings for him).

    Not to mention that in ASOIAF you don’t have these flat characters that either act solely good or solely evil. Jaime doesn’t get the option between good or evil, he gets a tough choice to weigh what means more. He’s realized that Cersei is a bad person and he wants to do some good, which does not include helping her as she’s the root to so many bad things for him and for the kingdom. He does a good deed at Riverrun but to accomplish that he needs to do something that makes him look bad. It’s this kind of grey shades that make the story good, but there’s no question whatsoever that he’s on a path to redemption. It’s just not a Disney kind of redemption.

  455. Mr Fixit
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    Luana, please enlighten me as to the nature of your strange black&white feminist raging. You do understand these are fictional characters we’re talking about and not vehicles for attaining your personal sense of female empowerment?

  456. John
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Anyone think that ratings will suffer because of The Walking Dead season finale? They both air at the same time.

  457. Queenofthorns
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Luana: Maybe you should.

    To Zack, Tywins Bastard and Luana

    Personally I think both Cersei and Jaime are highly sympathetic flawed and human characters who’s actions are each totally understandable. Jaime being male has more choices in the world than Cersei, yes, but that doesn’t make his feelings of betrayal once he learns of her infidelity any less real. This is a dude who had really given up his dreams for this woman, from his PoV, tainted his white cloak, etc. of course it was his decision to do these things (Aerys, Bran, etc), not Cersei’s, so he’s not magically redeemed. But his time with Brienne has shown him a glimmer of the life he could have had – the life of a true knight.

    Meanwhile, like Jaime, Cersei did a lot of things because she felt she needed to, to protect the ones she loves (primarily her children). Yet while her circumstance explains why she did what she did, it doesn’t excuse it any more than Jaime. She’s still responsible for her sexual betrayal of Jaime (it’s pretty clear that the arrangement was that they’d be faithful to each other), so I don’t really consider Jaime burning her letter in turn to be that terrible a thing. Or at least it’s extremely understandable.

    Both of these people were ultimately betrayed by society, Cersei being the worst victim, yes. That’s kinda what the books are about IMO.

  458. King Tommen
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    There is no definitive point where you could say for sure that Roose starts planning to turn on Robb, certainly not on the show. And I definitely think the show is going in the direction of Ramsay and Roose being linked in their intentions because otherwise, they would not need to go through all the subterfuge of what actually happened at Winterfell. They would have had Luwin tell Bran and co that Ramsay’s men sacked it and they would have had Theon being told he is being held at the Dreadfort in S3 (which doesn’t appear to be the case so far which is why some critics are saying it’s confusing).

  459. Josla
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    I totally agree with Luana here. People don’t like Cercei for obvious reasons but she indeed loved Jaime. She is not at all the fully evil character that many readers seem to see in her. Jaime on the other hand abandoning her sister (and the woman he loves) to her death was not redeeming, no matter how many other changes he’s made.

  460. steiner
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood: I don’t think I disliked it per se…

    Thanks. I too was disappointed with Tormund’s lines, when I saw them in the trailer. I hope that’s just due to his initial suspicions or something.

    I suppose Jon’s storyline will build up towards episodes such as ‘The Climb’ this season so it still has time.

  461. steiner
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    Josla,

    But whatever’s said and done, Cersei is a nasty piece of work. Jaime being in love with her was one of his many big mistakes, so I would say that abandoning her was the right decision.

    That said, I doubt Jaime really went through the same rationale I just wrote down. He probably felt emotionally used/drained by her and so thought ‘screw it, I’m not going to help her’.

  462. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    King Tommen,

    This makes all the sense in the world, except for one thing which is why the hell is Roose going to let Robb think he had any part in a betrayal so early, by outright telling him he’s sending his bastard (as it turns out, to sack Winterfell)? These timing issues in various forms are the main reason I always thought the Bastard was acting of his own volition, something that just happened to work out nicely for Roose once he started planning with the Freys and Tywin. But I do think your points are all solid regardless.

    Luana: Maybe you should.

    Okay, so she’s not Queen Regent (with all the power that comes with it) then? Thanks. Useful information to have when reading your posts in the future lol.
    “OH woe is Cersei, let’s not hold her ruthless thirst for power against her since oh, she doesn’t have a penis. The ultimate free pass amirite?” snrk. Not that identical behavior would be any more excusable from a tavern wench, or Cat Stark, or anyone not Queen Regent, but anyone who thinks all Cersei’s got to work with is her sexual appeal…

    I’m done. This sort probably thinks the ‘female villain’ is a myth.

  463. King Tommen
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    King Tommen,

    This makes all the sense in the world, except for one thing which is why the hell is Roose going to let Robb think he had any part in a betrayal so early, by outright telling him he’s sending his bastard (as it turns out, to sack Winterfell)? These timing issues in various forms are the main reason I always thought the Bastard was acting of his own volition, something that just happened to work out nicely for Roose once he started planning with the Freys and Tywin. But I do think your points are all solid regardless.


    I think in the books, definitely that Ramsay being Ramsay at Winterfell is just a happy coincidence for Roose and there was no scheming on his part that went into it.

    On the show, Roose explicitly vouches for Ramsay and convinces Robb to have him sent to Winterfell which makes him complicit in whatever Ramsay does. I don’t see any other reason for the mystery from the audience’s viewpoint other than to hold off on the Ramsay reveal to closer to the time that we get the Roose is a traitor reveal.

    In terms of why Roose plays his hand so early, I would imagine that they’re at least initially going to pin the sack of Winterfell on the Ironborn when Robb and Cat finally hear the news of Bran and Rickon’s “deaths” this season. This would be plausible from the character’s point of view and the show has omitted enough from the Winterfell scenes in the finale to make it plausible for the audience as well. We never saw any Ironborn scattered amongst the dead when Bran and co surveyed the carnage. And everyone else had cleared out by that time.

    My theory is that Theon (and the audience) will be under the impression early this season that he is being held in some undetermined location by proxy in order to await punishment for his stupidity from his father or something like that. Only later when he escapes, will he realize he’s at the Dreadfort and a fellow prisoner (“boy”) will be Ramsay. This will occur very close to the RW so that the audience can put the pieces together of just how untrustworthy Roose will be. It would not shock me if this happens in the same episode actually.

  464. QueenofThorns
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    steiner: Jaime being in love with her was one of his many big mistakes

    Jaime wouldn’t agree. “You don’t choose who you love” after all.

  465. Juego de tronos
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    5 days!!

  466. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Queenofthorns,

    Good post. I agree with most of it. Cersei’s definitely a victim of patriarchal society, considering how miserable she is just that she wasn’t born male. Some women prefer the wife/mother role, where it seems like she is doing the best she can with it despite it not really suiting her, since she isn’t the physical specimen Brienne is to be able to be a warrior despite her gender.

    So she’s pretty much devoted to her kids, to being a mother, and it’s weird that I can’t even call her a terrible mother for Joffrey because somehow 2 of their 3 kids aren’t disasters, so they’re doing well with the odds. The show has successfully accentuated this aspect of her character to not quite be as one-dimensionally rotten as in the text, but yeah. Forgiving her of her many, heinous, duplicitous evil acts just because she’s a victim is going about three steps too far. Headey has really grown on me in the role. Still hate the wig though.

  467. steiner
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    QueenofThorns,

    Haha, I suppose it can’t be a mistake if you don’t have a choice. But it certainly didn’t make his life any easier!

  468. Jen
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Ooooh I am disappoint … regarding the Theon/Ramsay scenes I was also hoping they would push the envelope with that dynamic, more, but … there’s 6 more episodes left, right? They have to leave somewhere to go, I guess. Especially considering how broken Theon becomes down the line :/ I STILL HAVE HOPE.

  469. Markus
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    Queenofthorns,

    Good post.I agree with most of it. Cersei’s definitely a victim of patriarchal society, considering how miserable she is just that she wasn’t born male. Some women prefer the wife/mother role, where it seems like she is doing the best she can with it despite it not really suiting her, since she isn’t the physical specimen Brienne is to be able to be a warrior despite her gender.

    So she’s pretty much devoted to her kids, to being a mother, and it’s weird that I can’t even call her a terrible mother for Joffrey because somehow 2 of their 3 kids aren’t disasters, so they’re doing well with the odds. The show has successfully accentuated this aspect of her character to not quite be as one-dimensionally rotten as in the text, but yeah. Forgiving her of her many, heinous, duplicitous evil acts just because she’s a victim is going about three steps too far. Headey has really grown on me in the role. Still hate the wig though.

    Oh, cmon now. I get fed up with people saying these highborn women are victims. I mean they are privileged compared to 99% of all men, all those lower born than themselves whose life is absolute shit. Also it is not nescessarily an advantage to have duties to go to war like all men in this world got, Tyrion got his nose cut out and Jamie sat rotting in Stark’s prison while Cersei was drunk in the red keep.

    Cersei is privileged, absolutely 100% privileged. I imagine the worst thing that happened in her life was to become the wife of a bad husband without any say on the issue, but Stannis too was forced into a marriage with a terrible wife.

  470. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Markus,

    She can be two things at once. Rich people have their own problems they have to face, no one is immune. Plenty of victims don’t turn into scheming, hate-filled wretches, so hate her for that, not because of some belief that she turned out that way despite her nonexistent society of gender equality.

  471. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Queenofthorns,

    I 100% agree that they are both highly flawed but also sympathetic characters. Their chapters are some of the best in the series and it’s great to see them both turn away from their common path, but doing so in vastly different ways. Both have great reasons for acting the way they do, which is the core of why this series is as good as it is in my view.

    Markus,

    You can be a victim without being the worst off in the land. Just because people in the third world live under horrible living conditions doesn’t mean that a middle class person in the western world can’t have tragedies and be treated poorly.

    All people react to what’s important to themselves and therefor it’s highly relevant what hardships Cersei have gone through. She can be victimized and emotionally scarred even though she’s lived a far better life than any peasant.

  472. Markus
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I have always deeply disliked victimisation, people trying to be included in a collective group of victims when often they are in control of their own destiny. Cersei, Theon and even Tyrion are among privileged persons in this world who goes down this mental approach, but I must say Tyrion rises above that feeling by beeing proactive to find solutions to the problems that it means beeing a dwarf with Tywin as your father.

    Anyway, look at how Jon Snow handles the unjust way he has been threated for all his life (compared to his brothers and sisters) for inspiration. Look at Asha, she doesnt whine about beeing a highborn woman but does the best with what she got. Look at Brienne, look at Davos, look at Margeary and her grandmother who use the brain to very much let the man of the family just think he is in control when they in truth have all the power.

    Cersei probably comes to have more power than all but a handfull of men in the kingdom and she still whines about beeing a woman all the time. You think Cersei would if given the choise even want to be out there with a sword in her hand to defend Kings Landing? She says so but I very much doubt it, despite beeing physically stronger than Tyrion I dont see her as someone capable of such heroism.

  473. Imnus
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    It’s strange that people are so upset about ShowCat, I found BookCat to such an immensely stupid and irritating character that made the worst decision almost every fucking time, and the few times she actually thought things through it didn’t matter because either people didn’t listen to her or she just stood by and did nothing about it.

    On the other hand I find ShowCat a more intelligent character and better character overall.

  474. Tywin's Bastard
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Markus,

    And you don’t think Cersei finds ways to solve her problems? She basically becomes the ruler of the kingdoms so she’s certainly not less proactive than Tyrion, although neither of them really rise above their father. While Tywin loves Cersei better than Tyrion he still only cares about Jaime in the ways that really count for Cersei. They also follow the same pattern as both of them fall through as their work falls through. Tyrion becomes a shell of himself and Cersei falls into paranoia and maybe even mental illness. Both fail miserably, although Tyrion will likely rise from it better. But regardless of failure both tried to change their situation and, for a time, succeeded in doing that.

    Comparing them to Jon Snow, Asha, Brienne and Davos doesn’t really work since none of them have the same high ambitions. Jon, Brienne and Davos just want to serve. Asha is pretty much one of the more priviliged women in Westeros from the gender perspective for that matter, seeing how she’s put as the heir and gets all the chances to earn respect in the exact same manner men do on the Iron Islands. The same goes for Margaery who I doubt had as much problems from being a woman as usual, seeing how the family is basically run by Olenna.

    Of course Cersei has chances to overcome the problems to some degree, and as said she manages to do that. In the end everything she’s worked for is still basically taken over by men. She didn’t succeed but she certainly tried. We’re obviously not talking about victimization where the victim has no chance of doing anything about it. Those persons can’t affect anything and are therefor not interesting to follow in this story.

  475. Zack
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Tywin’s Bastard,

    *clap*

    How very well said.

  476. Carne
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Is Tormund acting all serious in the first four episodes? No jokes etc?

    Any new Night’s Watch characters except Burn Gorman?

  477. Napoleonbuff
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Myles McNutt,

    I didn’t care for that scene, but because I thought it wasn’t a terribly effective scene, not because I felt it did any harm to the characterization of Cat.

    Then again, I like Cat and Sansa from both books and show and am not involved in all the back and forth over who is to blame for particular events, as Martin’s characters tend to be fleshed-out human beings who make understandable mistakes that sometimes have unintended consequences.

    Nor am I interested in which characters represent the deconstruction of tropes. That is an extremely poor basis for any kind of overall analysis, in my opinion, as it primarily relies on what people bring to the books. If you can’t understand/interpret the books without a prior knowledge of fantasy literature, then it is a failure as a book, in my opinion.

  478. QueenofThorns
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Markus: look at how Jon Snow handles the unjust way he has been threated for all his life

    ..

    Cersei probably comes to have more power than all but a handfull of men in the kingdom and she still whines about beeing a woman all the time

    Jon has a huge complex about his bastardy, as of course he would do. Can you explain how he uses it for inspiration? It seems to me that he complains about it a lot, and never brings it up as a positive. It still pisses him off any time someone brings it up, and he whines a lot about it in the first two books. It’s actually very similar to the way Cersei feels about her sex… Both of them achieve a lot despite having fewer choices due to the way society is set up.

    Does this mean I think Cersei is morally superior? HELL NO! Jon really is a good person. Cersei… not so much. But I find both of them to be quite understandable.

  479. Bolan
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    Weirdly dyed hair? So I assume they have given him a wig of Ramsay’s flowing locks?

  480. Carne
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Are these Tormund pics new? http://imgur.com/a/uFIq6

    Put them together in an Imgur album, but here’s the original source: http://www.vg.no/rampelys/artikkel.php?artid=10108595

  481. Hi-Fi
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Tywin’s Bastard,

    Do you really believe Asha had an actual chance of becoming Queen of the Iron Islands? Both her uncles (not including Euron) were against it, as was the majority of the men. She was then “married” to another by Euron, then had to run.

    The only women who are actually seen as equals in Westeros (without having to prove their “skills in battle”, like Asha) are the Martells: Arianne and the Sand Snakes.

  482. taim
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    the reviews so far sound like mainly daenerys storyline ist good, and the other ones suffer. don’t know what to think about this… its like the writers mainly care about her… yes she has dragons and so on, but you don’t have to make her the centre of everything…

  483. Nezzer
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Bolan,

    Maybe Ramsay is so evil he stole Daario’s blue hair 8)

  484. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    taim,

    Huh? The reviews I’ve read rave about most of the storylines, namely Jaime/Brienne and King’s Landing. I don’t know which you are reading.

  485. QueenofThorns
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    taim: the reviews so far sound like mainly daenerys storyline ist good, and the other ones suffer. don’t know what to think about this… its like the writers mainly care about her… yes she has dragons and so on, but you don’t have to make her the centre of everything…

    o_o

    I don’t know how anyone can say this with a straight face after what they did with her story and character in Season 2… And it’s pretty much agreed even by those who don’t like Dany that her strongest material is from book 3. Those of us who are her fans will finally get something good, we hope!

    If the writers have a bias, it’s definitely pro Tyrion above anyone else. Which is understandable, he’s a pretty amazing character.

  486. Phil
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    ok i seriously hope that sam the slayer is still in there. They showed the dragonglass last season, the only reason to do that is for sam to kill the white walker

    also the whole barristan/artsan thing. They could have the CHARACTERS not know who he is, while the audience would. Yes it would be a different reveal than the books, but it would still enable dany to feel betrayed when she finds out.

    also from everything I’ve read and the released photos, and based on last season they’ve eliminated dontos and are using littlefinger directly, which kills a reveal but oh well. . So far, most of the changes I haven’t minded, minus Dany and JOn’s storylines last season. As long as they don’t screw up stories like they did that, I’ll be ok. And any changes made to get storylines back on the track of the series like Robb going to harrenhall, which will presumably leave Bolton in charge there for when Jamie gets there would be ok with me.

  487. King Tommen
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    I would imagine that the critics who are ranking certain storylines ahead of others are doing so because they’ve only seen 4 episodes to this point and the ones they’re saying are the most well done are those that actually have big events taking place within that timeframe:

    Dany gets to be a badass and unleash Dracarys at the end of E4, so it’s going to seem like her storyline is the most engaging to that point.

    Jaime would appear to be getting his hand cut off at the end of E3 so it’s understandable that he and Brienne would have some pretty meaty scenes to work with in the first 4 episodes.

    No one’s mentioning the Robb/Cat stuff yet because they haven’t really done anything yet. Robb hasn’t even got to do the Karstark execution

    Jon’s hanging around with the Wildlings and hasn’t got busy with Ygritte (happening in E5), scaled the Wall with Tormund and Orell, gone to Queenscrown, made it back to Castle Black etc.

    Sam won’t have his Slayer scene until later on

    Theon’s been in only a handful of scenes where everything is a mysterious which won’t be explained until later on when Ramsay reveals himself and tells Theon where he is and what’s in store for him

    So I don’t think anyone should read a whole lot into the ranking of the storylines at this point. In fact, based on the events that would be taking place in these first four episodes, that’s exactly where I would expect the audience to be.

  488. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Variety’s review of the new season:

    http://variety.com/2013/tv/reviews/tv-review-game-of-thrones-1200328848/

    Another very positive review. He rates the storylines that have really stood out thus far as:

    Daenerys
    Jaime/Brienne
    Jon and the Wildlings

  489. Imnus
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:

    What’s stupid is the fact that people think there is only one way to interpret every character from the books, when that obviously isn’t the case. What’s even stupider is that anyone would expect a television show to have the depth of a series of 1,000 page novels.

    This is my main problem with book readers who are pretty quick to jump to criticise a show character based in how THEY interpreted an specific character or character arc. It’s extremely stupid to criticise a show character comparing it to how you interpreted that character in the books, not everyone sees every character as you, in fact you can bet most people interpretation differ a lot from yours, which is why IMO is mostly a futile effort to judge characters this way.

    B.M.:

    And Cat? Instead of acting as the voice of reason and transcending the vengeful impulse, show!Cat is either an uppity woman being put back in her place for daring to think she knows best, or she’s weepy and over-emotional and she must apologize.

    This is a perfect example of that, for me BookCat was the voice of stupidity, while ShowCat seems a lot more sensible and inteligent.

  490. Miles
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    So much bitching about people expressing their opinion. So they don’t like the way catelyn was portrayed, isn’t this board here for discussion? Should everyone just smile and never utter any disappointments they have with the show? I understand some things have to be changed but the HOTU scene still made me want to throw my remote across the room. People become connected to certain scenes and characters and when they are changed to make room for invented BS(Joffs abuse scene?, Dragons stolen) or to make characters more viewer friendly (Sansa,Catelyn,Shae) it is a going to let down people. It comes off as them trying to improve the narrative but when the show sticks to the books it is at its best.

  491. qwerty
    Posted March 26, 2013 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    are you gonna be ignoring negative reviews like you did in previous years?

  492. direhound
    Posted March 27, 2013 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Virtus,

    This might help some people worried about the Sam the Slayer part of the storyline. It seems that this will be picked up later on in the series as the producers didn’t want the solution to the Others problem to be handled to quickly so putting off his moment keeps the sense of dread. When you think about it once Sam kills the Other (White Walker) with the Dragonglass it should be pretty obvious that here’s the way to win the war…

    http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-kit-harington-rose-leslie-interview/


  • Recent Comments

  • More from FanSided

  • Archives

    • 2014 (729)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •