Episode 22 – Dark Wings, Dark Words – Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

Margaery and Joffrey

Episode two has come and gone. What did you think? Read my take after the jump, and then feel free to share your thoughts in the comment section below!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Storm of Swords. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ASoS yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book reader recap. Thanks!

The episode opens in Bran’s dream. He is hunting the three-eyed raven. We see Jojen Reed for the first time, who tells Bran that the raven is him. Bran wakes up. Later, Jojen appears for real and he brought backup. Meera and Jojen have joined your party! Jojen and Bran talk about warging and the sight. Jojen says he has the sight, he can see into the future and the past. He saw Bran and that is why he is there.

Beyond the Wall, we meet another warg, Orell. He is scouting for the wildlings by warging into an eagle. He sees the Fist, littered with dead crows.

In King’s Landing, Sansa is introduced to Margaery’s grandmother, Olenna Tyrell. She confesses that Joffrey isn’t the merciful king that she has been coerced into telling everyone about. Later, Margaery decides to find out for herself just how dark Joffrey’s dark side actually is.

Theon is learning just how dark things can get when you cross the wrong people. But who has he crossed and what do they want with him? A “boy” offers to help him escape.

Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie are attempting to put some distance between them and Harrenhal, when they are discovered by the Brotherhood without Banners. Thoros of Myr and Anguy take them to a familiar-looking inn to learn more about their Harrenhal escape. As luck would have it, Anguy has managed to catch himself a stray dog. Before Arya can slip away, she is recognized by the Hound.

Lastly, Jaime and Brienne are traipsing the countryside, attempting to get to King’s Landing unseen. Despite his chains, Jaime seems to be quite enjoying himself. They stumble upon an old farmer who appears not to recognize either of them. Later, while crossing a bridge, Jaime makes his move. But he is too weak from his imprisonment and Brienne is a much better swordswoman than he bargained for. She takes him down, but just then Locke, a Bolton bannermen, rides up. The old farmer is with him and he confirms the Kingslayer’s identity.

What I Liked

We found the Reeds! – We can finally answer the question asked so many times in the comments, “WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE REEDS!?” After some delay, they have met up with Bran. Loved seeing the Reeds for the first time. Loved hearing a tiny bit of backstory about Howland and Ned (although for a second there I was wondering if they would launch into the Knight of the Laughing Tree story).
Fun-loving Thoros – It looks like they’ve decided to make Thoros of Myr the drunk, fun-loving Thoros as opposed to the dour, religious Thoros he has become at this point in the books. I approve of the decision. The show could always use the humor and Paul Kaye is a great comedic actor.
Jaime vs Brienne – Only one episode into the season for these two and already the interplay between them is classic. And their duel at the end was pretty awesome, as well.
Poor Cat – I have a feeling this scene is going to be quite controversial. My take? I liked it. It was emotional and very well-acted by Michelle Fairley. Let’s analyze the two contentious points of the monologue, as I see them. First off, is it really believable that Catelyn would show only disgust and hatred towards Jon Snow for 17 years? That seems unlikely. More often than not, I’m sure she treated him kindly, even if she wasn’t overly affectionate towards him. And given that she isn’t a horrible person, I can believe that she would feel compassion for a young boy who is in pain. As for blaming herself for what has happened? Well, thankfully I’ve never lost a child (or thought I may be in danger of losing a child) but I can imagine that a feeling of profound guilt when in the throes of grief is feasible. It’s clear that Cat is speaking from a place of real pain, so I think we have to take that into account when analyzing her words.

What I Didn’t Like

So Many Storylines, Not Enough Time – Once again this episode featured longer arcs of certain storylines and cut out others altogether (no Dany or Stannis this week). Personally, while many critics felt that the premiere was a bit on the slow side, I thought this episode was the more plodding of the two. I definitely feel like this show could use a double-length premiere to get all of the storylines started each season.

Enough of my thoughts, what did you think of the episode? Do you agree or disagree with my take on the Catelyn speech? What was it like finally seeing the Reeds? Let’s hear it!


533 Comments

  1. rukie44
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Brienne for the WIN!

  2. brand monahan
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    rukie44,

    That was AWESOME!!!!!!

  3. House Snow
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Damn that sword fight was tense, who ever choreographed that did an amazing job.. The only thing I didn’t like about the episode was when

    karstark told robb Talisa was costing them the war. They didn’t really provide any context so it didn’t really make sense for him to say that and it was kind of spoilery

    Otherwise amazing episode

  4. arden
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    I think Catelyn was fine it suits her character which is really getting caught into her emotions making dumb decisions

  5. Eric
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    The Hound = awsome

  6. Anguissette1979
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t see the problem with the CatMonologue. Great episode as a whole!

  7. Kevin Moore
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Fantastic episode. amazing acting, each scene was just as good as the other.
    Theon and Ramsay got me so excited!!!

  8. Jamb0
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, the Jamie/Brienne stuff was awesome…probably my favorite part of book 3, so I was really looking forward to that. The fight was great :)

  9. pntrlqst
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    I’m really glad Robb and Catelyn didn’t hear Bran and Rickon were dead, simply that they weren’t found. In one of the previews, it looks like Robb was planning on attacking Casterly Rock, and I suppose their later hearing of the supposed deaths being will be what alters their course back to the North. Which I like; since they’ve already blown using that event in a better circumstance, this is acceptable, IMO. If they’d heard it just then, I feel it’d have been a waste.

    LOVE THOROS! And Jaime and Brienne. And Jojen.

    The beginning of the episode moved through scenes at a very rapid rate, moreso than we’re used to with this show.

  10. Jen
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Perfect episode IMO … oh my god, my poor bb Theon

  11. brigatron
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Queen of Thorns was rad!

  12. dmf
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    BASTARD OF BOLTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My life is complete.

  13. Robb
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    The shitstain purists at westeros are going to raise hell over the Catelyn scene

  14. Leebo
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Amen. Too many storylines. I feel like it was only 15 minutes this episode! The problem is that everything is so damn great you can’t help but feel cheated. Three hours more like it.

  15. Wrath of the Gods
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    I personally LOVED the Cat scene. Great epsiode all around.

  16. The Bloodraven
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    House Snow,

    The context was that Robb was supposed to marry one of Walder Frey’s daughters (or granddaughters, I can’t remember which), which has already been established in the show.

  17. Shannon
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    How perfect was the scene of Meera saying “Some people will always need help” over the frame of Hodor, Bran and Jojen? I sighed and clapped at that one.

  18. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Awesome episode.
    I think I liked every change andI loved that most of the QoT dialog from the books was kept. I would have enjoyed Sansa asking Loras about her and being told not to call her Queen fof Thorns etc, but all in all great stuff!

    I would have loved a 90-minute premiere or a 2-episode premiere as well. I think it would have set the table a bit better.

    They have made Talisa more interesting to me somehow. Her appearance seems better too somehow, softer maybe? Maybe it is just she is not rushing from injured man to injured man with a bone saw expousing politics….

    Theon is in for a rough ride! Yikes.

    This week’s episode extras:
    http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/04/game-of-thrones-episode-302-dark-wings_8.html

  19. Bow
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    So is the Bolton bastard in or not? Concerned with the possible deviations in Theon’s storyline.

  20. Robin
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Was I the only one disappointed in the Brienne/Jaime sword fight? I feel like it was slow. Or awkward.

  21. David The Grey
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Once again, I liked everything about this episode, but there were three things I especially liked: 1) Bran having a dream (Jojen Reed’s intro), I’ve always liked how the show has handled Bran’s dreams; 2) Sansa letting her facade slip in front of the Tyrell ladies (very nice emotion in Sansa voice); and 3) Brienne of Tarth on her one-handed assault on Jamie! That was so bad-ass!
    Oh wait, 4 things – 4) Cat getting the news about Winterfell from Robb. I thought that was also a very moving scene.
    Ack, and I also loved seeing Shae & Tyrion together! So that’s 5 things I absolutely loved amongst a ton of awesomeness! (Did I mention The Hound? I am an awful counter!)

  22. dmf
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Robin,

    I feel like he didn’t stand a chance, and he’s supposedly the best swordsman in Westeros…

  23. dmf
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Bow,

    I’m thinking Reek, which will be amazing if they pull that off

  24. David The Grey
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Robin,

    I think it was slow at first, as both were getting their opponnent’s measure. I think Brienne was actually even faking a bit, because she clearly was not tired or slow as she hammered down on Jamie, one-handed, towards the end of the scene. I enjoyed the entire scene!

  25. arden
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Bastard of Bolton was the guy helping Theon, he’s is playing a ruse with him and acting like he’s helping him escape because Ramsay is sick

  26. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    - Loved Olenna, Anguy and Thoros. Jojen and Meera, and Orell are okay for now.

    - Reek! Even if Theon/Reek is my favorite arc in the whole book series, I’m not confident about it in the show! I hope we get more of the “Boy” in the third episode.

    - Mace Tyrel was mentioned 1391293291 times these episode, for sure we are gonna see him in S4 or even this season.

    - Did D&D forget to show the non readers that Roose stayed at Harenhall.

    - Where is Varys? :(

    - The new scene about Jojen telling that Howland Reed cried when Ned died was great!

    - The fight scene was great! I think that Noah Taylor is gonna rock as Locke

    - Where is Burn Gorman? Since we know that he takes part on the mutiny at Craster’s, wouldn’t be strange that if they only introduce him in the episode of the mutiny?

    9,5/10 (I gave 10/10 for the first)

  27. Victoria
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Shannon,

    I loved absolutely everything about Jojen and Meera

  28. Hi-Fi
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    I loved this episode!

    I wasn’t a fan of Vanessa Taylor’s episodes last year, but man did she bring it with this one.

    LOVED Jojen and Meera. It’s weird, I’ve never really cared for them in the books, but they were great here.

    LOVED Thoros and Anguy (ugh, new crush). So much fun.

    LOVED Olenna and Margaery manipulating dumb Joff.

    And I had NO problem with Catelyn’s scene, in fact I quite liked it. Michelle Failey is easily the best actress in the show, she’s ridiculously good. I’m feeling her pain.

  29. Lin Beifunk
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    “Some people will always need help.”

    o my heart

  30. pntrlqst
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Michel,

    Re: Roose: No, Robb said he’d keep Roose at Harrenhal.

  31. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Can someone post the preview for episode 3? I missed it.

  32. Bryon
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Great idea to have a two hour premier! Margery Tyrell was playing the game as well as anyand it was great to see the Queen of Thrones. I agree that Thoros was well played. funny that Shae is looking to save Sansa becuase of who Tyrion will be betrothed to soon.

    I’m still on the fence with the changes to Cat. I just hope it doesn’t change where she ends up at ASoS.

    Oh and Jon seeing a warg and not realizing he maybe be a warg was great. Just show Jon Snow still knows nothing.

  33. Scott Glennon
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Ahh…Here we are…

    Hot and cold runnin’ Damn that was a good episode! Arya and Thoros reminded me…we got some wicked sword fights coming!

    For Winterfell!

  34. Tereeza777
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    it was soooo good – again, it felt like the episode was 10 min long – Thoros of Myr is the BEST!!

  35. Lefty
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    I thought Jojen stole the show. What a strong portrayal.

  36. Mike Chair
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    There is Nothing Like a Dame!

    Now that I’ve seen two episodes I can gauge the pace of this season, and it is good.

    Reeds are better than I thought they’d be.

    Cat’s speech was fine.

    No Dany. Well, if you’ve read the books you’re used to that.

    Maisie was fabulous as always.

    And that quick expression Natalie Dormer pulled off when Sansa said “he’s a monster” was brilliant. It was like she was thinking, “Yeah, no shit, no problem. I’ll deal with it.” Perfect.

  37. Michael Draycott
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Margaery is becoming my favourite female character on the show!

  38. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the conversation between Cat and Talisa, building up the viewer appreciation for her increasingly with each episode…. That departure from the book was a good touch. The one departure that didn’t work well for me was Sandor coming in this soon. I really feel he should have been saved for much later in S3.

    Someone’s just starting their journey towards learning a new name. I cringingly, wibblingly approve.

    Great to finally see the Little Grandfather. Really liking ‘em both so far, though Osha’s distrust was a bit unnerving beyond the introduction. Forgivable, though, under the circumstances.

    Lunch with the QoT was absolutely perfect. Loved it. Also appreciated Margaery’s book deviation with the little deviant himself, to take her measure of him. I’m absolutely loving Show!Margaery. And what’s not to love about Olenna. DDR is hitting it out of the park, as we all knew she would.

    No complaints from this side other than the early appearance of the Hound–and since he’s my favourite second tier character, I forgive that too.

  39. loco73
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Oh man! Excellent once again! Just think we got the Queen of Thorns, Thoros Of Myr, the Reeds, the Brotherhood Without Banners, Ramsay the Bastard Of Bolton (poor Theon nothing good for him ahead for a long, long, long while!) Orell the Warg, all in one episode!!!!! Hurrah for the The Hound and Arya, Hot Pie and Gendry!

    I found Cat’s monologue heartbreaking, Margaery’s survival skills great and Sansa as breathtaking as ever…plus that table scene with the Queen of Thorns played exactly as I imagined…and poor Tyrion is scarred for Shae!

    And Brienne with Jamie! Fucking AWESOME scene…Seeing Jamie at first surprised at how good she was and then dawning on him that he could loose the duel…that is priceless! When Ramsay appears she wasn’t even paying attention to him, it looked like she was sparring with a child…LOL! I know that it sounds impossible but I think that Jamie only has one woman in his future…Brienne!

  40. We do not Hodor
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I loved it! Unlike last season where I did not like the changes to Dany’s storyline, this year’s all work for me.

    I only wish they had 13 episodes or ran over an hour.

  41. Josh
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Wow, the whole Cat-gate was all for nothing, huh? That was such an excellent scene…believable and true to the character…somehow, to me, it made Catlynn even more sympathetic.

  42. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    Oh, sorry then! I think my stream broke in that scene.

  43. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    I felt the same as with the S2 premiere.
    It was kinda slow and plodding. Too many storylines, too little time indeed. The 10 eps. per season thing really damages the show sometimes.
    I really loved Olenna Tyrell and Thoros of Myr. Joffrey’s scenes were meh. It seems like they’re doing the same they did with Robb Stark on S2 this season, but with Margaery: adding unnecessary scenes.

  44. We do not Hodor
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Josh:
    Wow, the whole Cat-gate was all for nothing, huh? That was such an excellent scene…believable and true to the character…somehow, to me, it made Catlynn even more sympathetic.

    Agreed!

  45. GeekFurious
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    There were moments in this episode that could easily be someone’s Emmy clip.

  46. Dracarys
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    So awesome
    The Queen of Thorns is no BS. Her personality reflects in Margaery and how she handles herself with an underlying sense of cunning and intelligence, Marge really really knows how to play the game.
    Loved the introduction of so many new characters to the series. Thoros and Meera and Jojen, Orell.
    The capture of the Hound.
    Man I am vibrating in sheer anticipation for next week.
    Probably watch 2 or 3 more times TONIGHT

  47. Clob
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    I wouldn’t expect Jaime to easily handle another good sword fighter after being drug around in shackles and sleeping in the mud for weeks, as well as fighting handcuffed.

    I’d also like a longer season premiere episode, such as these first two in one and then nine more after. Having nothing of Arya, Jaime/Brienne, and Bran’s group last week and no Daenerys this week is a disappointing wait. / I’m almost hoping that they eventually cut Dorne stuff almost entirely in the future just so the “good stuff” doesn’t suffer screen time. It already felt pasted in when I read the books so skipping that is fine with me.

  48. Pate
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Margaery knows how to play the game!

  49. Kingslayer
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    I really liked this episode over the first one. I was SOOO mad at the changes of really significant things, or at least I felt significant, to character story arcs. However, this episode really used some nuance to continue to play towards, what I feel, is a significant way to tell the same character story arcs. I specifically refer to Sam and John Snow. I also really LOVED Meera being a badass. But was equally annoyed at Arya not getting a chance to show off her water dance skills. A lot of the non-book scenes I felt helped further develop the story. The only one that seemed long winded and pointless was the Tyrion and Shea scene. The awkward “I only have eyes for you” crap line really left me wondering if I wasn’t watching a Lifetime movie. I also really miss Vargo Hoat. I did like how the show challenged Arya as to why she didn’t bother to have Jaqen kill Joffrey or Tywin.

  50. gisizzlah
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Great episode….

    I really appreciate the changes from the books… I get it now when GRRM and D&D… keep explaining about the ‘flow’ of the show etc… etc…

    What i like is how they are establishing House Bolton to be menacing… which will play out much more by the end of the season….

    I’m still reeling over the Tyrell garden scene…. oooohh…. even though there was no “Bear and the Maiden Fair” rendition… :(

    And Margery’s comment to Joffery if he wants to “watch”…. book readers know… huh?… right?.. :)

    overall it was great… cant wait for next week…

    :) Hodor!

  51. loco73
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Poor Sam is back to Mr Piggy…the ragged Night’s Watch survivors look soo much like I thought they would! Finally Mance is starting to show Jon the outline of his plan…and poor Jon looks like he ate a whole lemon!

    I really like how the series is unfolding so far. I know some people seem to have some issue with the pacing, but I think that they did the smartest thing possible. After the second season last two explosive episodes, the battle of Blackwater Bay and the attack of on the Fist Of The First Men and all the rest, it is a smart move to start slowly re-establishing the main characters and their storylines, introducing new characters and building up everything. To me the pacing and the way the story/stories are unfolding its all done in the right way!

  52. TrappingsOfPower
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Thought the Cat monologue was great.

  53. Anne
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I loved The Queen Of Thorns scene. And Jaime and Brienne. And all of Arya’s scenes! Really Liked Thoros. And finally meeting the Reeds, although I was hoping to hear all, some or part of their oath to their liege Lord.

  54. Lin Beifunk
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    One thing I’m wondering: has it ever been established why Shae likes Sansa? The character guide even says Shae is ‘fiercely devoted’ (or something to that effect) to her. I guess her motivation could simply be common decency; Sansa’s gone through unnecessary, evil shit.

  55. Matt
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I wasn’t overly impressed with the episode at first viewing. There were some things I absolutely loved (Thoros, Queen of Thorns, CatOlogue, Warging, The Hound), but for the most part I found it quite boring, and some of the scenes made me cringe because I found them so bad.

    I’m re-watching it again now, and I must say some of the scenes I didn’t like I found more enjoyable on 2nd viewing… Perhaps I’ll rate this episode more highly when it’s done.

    Right now? 6/10.

  56. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Locke was awesome as well — reminded me of Count Rugen from Princess Bride, truth be told. But I’d still have preferred the Goat and “thapphires.” One thing I did miss from the book (or should I say two things) were Lady Olenna’s bodyguards Left and Right. Guess we just get Left. Or is it Right. Hmmm.

    And let’s hear it for Jamie and Brienne’s Excellent Adventure!

  57. GeekFurious
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Josh:
    Wow, the whole Cat-gate was all for nothing, huh? That was such an excellent scene…believable and true to the character…somehow, to me, it made Catlynn even more sympathetic.

    I am glad Jace brought it up because I bet people would be losing their minds over it if it hadn’t been written about in such a dramatic way. I know why he felt as he did when he watched it, but I wouldn’t call it a character assassination.

    I’d call it an attempt to define the character for the viewing audience in ways the show couldn’t otherwise. They had established her as cold and/or mean toward Jon. Now the audience sees her as someone who bargained with the gods to keep him alive, but then failed to keep her promise because she is still wounded by his existence.

    That’s more or less an adjustment of character, not an assassination.

  58. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Aren’t these episodes supposed to be longer this season?

    We get like 2 minutes of “previously on Game of Thrones”, then the opening title sequence, which lasts over 1 minute as well. Then we get the “next on Game of Thrones” as well.

  59. Shan
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    The episode was awesome and I am full of joy.

    It would have made me happy, though, if they’d thrown in *one* line pointing out that Jaime had spent months being, you know, half-starved and chained up and such. Not that I want to defend his honor or anything (okay, I do), but if you put his fight with Brienne together with the way the him vs. Ned fight played out in Season One, he really hasn’t won a swordfight on screen since the beginning of the series. [Spoiler McSpoiler] isn’t going to have much of an impact next episode if we don’t understand that he honestly is a very good fighter under normal conditions.

  60. Matt
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Kingslayer,

    Thank God I’m not the only one who didn’t like the Tyrion/Shae scene

  61. Arthur
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    I loved the Bran scenes and Marg totally playing Joff..

    What I didn’t like… No Khaleesi!?!?

  62. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Kingslayer,

    Would book Arya be able to spar with an experienced swodsmen using a sword she is unaccustomed to? I’m not sure.

    ETA:
    Inide the Episode is up at HBO

  63. Clob
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    In the middle of second watch and while reading comments I’ve noticed that apparently we’re all accustom to the direwolves in scenes. Remember how excited we were to just get glimpses? This episode had them front and center looking all badass a couple of times, specifically facing down Jojen, and they are fantastic.

  64. Greg
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    The Good
    -The Brotherhood Without Banners! At first, I was a little iffy about how different Thoros is, but I grew to enjoy him quite a bit. I think by the end of the season, he’ll be how he is in the books.
    -Arya being a badass
    -Jaime and Brienne. Oh my god, so awesome. And that fight! And LOCKE! I can’t wait to see how their story plays out.
    -Theon’s interrogation/torture. Alfie Allen is amazing, as always, and it’s great to see Iwan Rheon. I do have one little gripe about this storyline so far, but I’ll get to that…
    -OLENNA MOTHERF*CKING TYRELL, EVERYBODY. Good gods, she is awesome. Just as sassy as she is in the books. Sophie and Natalie really held their own too, though. I especially love Margaery’s exasperated little eyeroll when Sansa goes “He’s a monster.”
    -The Reeds are perfect, especially Jojen. I loved the little mentions of Howland and the Tower of Joy as well.

    The Not As Good
    -Cat’s monologue was kind of weird…
    -…So was Tyrion and Shae’s scene. He passively mentions that Sansa is pretty (which is basically common knowledge in Westeros) and Shae’s all OMG YOU LOVE HER. I can see how it might sort of foreshadow his and Sansa’s wedding but I’m still not loving it. Sorry.
    -Is Theon’s story really moving this quickly? I mean, I was expecting him to be tortured for the first few episodes, while building up a friendship with “Boy”, then, maybe in like episode 7, “Boy” helps him escape. Then, an episode or two later, “Boy” recaptures him and reveals himself as Ramsay. It seems as though the escape and recapture is being moved forward, and the rest of the season will just be Theon getting tortured. I dunno, it seems kind of weird to me.
    -The Sam scene didn’t really have any point. I think they could’ve left him for next episode and made room for more Jon or Theon or Dany or Arya or Jaime.

    Overall, a very strong episode. Probabaly on par with last week’s, though it might have a slight edge due to the awesomeness of the Jaime, Arya, and Theon stuff.

  65. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    The Tyrion-Shae scene was the worst scene of the episode. Usually I like the Tyrion stuff but this was just… ugh. I think Shae’s the problem.

  66. GabiDog
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    arden,

    Ohhhhh… Interesting! Did not even think of that!

  67. Finn
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    I also thought the Jaime/Brienne was a bit awkward but no big deal. Margaery blew me away this episode. Both actors really nailed that crossbow scene.

    The QoT didn’t quite work for me. Not sure why. Thought she hid behind more of a caricature.

    The Tyrion/Shae scene seemed kind of random.

  68. pntrlqst
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Shan,

    Why can’t intelligent viewers be expected to get this without being told?

  69. Lord Greenseer
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Reek Reek it rhymes with Sneak

  70. LordStarkington
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Loved everything but the Cat and Tyrion/Shae scenes.

  71. gisizzlah
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    I see ppl didn’t like the shae/tyrion scene… but I think it was necessary to begin showing the ‘cracks’ in their relationship which will eventually cause the breakdown in the end….. which we’ll see next season… I guess…

  72. The DarkStar
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Great when Margery says she might be able to kill something, while looking at Joffery in the mirror.

  73. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    I liked the Tyrion/Shae scene. Maybe it is because I’ve been in that situation before, but I thought the scene was funny and real.

  74. loco73
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    …had no problem with the Tyrion and Shae scene…Tyrion is fallen, is aimless, feels abandoned and betrayed..he doesn’t have too much left in his life, his only source of relief…in more ways than one IS Shae! What the fuck is he supossed to be doing?! Should he be an asshole to her too? She is about the only person with which he doesn’t have to pretend or put up a front (not much anyways)…he can allow himself to be vulnerable around her! Geeesh you would think that the whole show is now motherfucking spoiled because of that!!! As if that goddamn scene infected the whole episode with ebola!!!!

    As for Cat’s dialogue…caracter assasination?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!? It makes her that much more sympathetic and you can better understand the burden, insecurities and guilt she is carrying with her! Had a scene like that existed in the books I wouldn’t have minded it a bit!

    Rant over…now back to a second helping of tonight’s episode!

  75. Hi-Fi
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Did “Boy” tell Theon he was sent by Yara? Did I heard it right?

  76. Mimsy
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Loved the episode! I’m so happy for myself that I’m enjoying every single episode and when the screen goes dark… I feel like I’ve sat thru a feature film. After the belly aching of the “Cat” scene last week, I thought that particular scene was going to suck, but I really liked it. I’m glad to hear that she didn’t want Jon to die, just to get out of her life.

    Jamie/Brienne… HAH… my husband is in love with Brienne now… as am I. Love her character! Love Jaime razzing the hell out of her.

    Reeds! I got all tingly when Bran asked Jojen what he sees and Jojen said the only that thing that matters… you. NICE!! Meera saying there’s no shame in defending someone who will always need protection was touching. She was sooo referring to Bran as well. Highlight of the books for me was how she treated Bran like a normal person.

    DIREWOLF money!! Thank you HBO.

    Theon’s scene’s were cringe worthy… yikes!!

    I’m digging Thoros… fantastic!

    Joffrey is an evil git.. quite crazed. Fabulous acting as always.

  77. Jamb0
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Man, that scene w/ Bran + Reeds on the road was so good, probably my favorite of the episode. I got some Tower of Joy-chills when they started talking about Howland and Ned….Plus Meera’s line about how there’s no shame in protecting people that deserve it, just perfect when followed with the shot of Hodor pulling Bran.

    I’m gonna try and not get too hopeful for one to show up this season, but man…one of my favorite passages from the book. Could you just imagine Sean Bean showing up for a surprise cameo? I hadn’t heard about Drogo coming back for s2, so anything could happen :)

  78. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Could that crossbow from Joffrey be THE crossbow? I like how D&D puts many foreshadowing scene in the episodes, like Shae doesn’t liking Tyrion talking that Sansa is beautiful (and then Tyrion marries her)), Karstark saying that Robb lost the war when he married Talisa. In the last episode we some scenes like that too

  79. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Lin Beifunk,

    I’ve tried to figure that out too…
    Maybe they are setting something up later, but it does feel odd to me for her to be so loyal to Sansa so quiclky.

    I must be in the minority that quite enjoyed the Tyrion and Shae scene. It is a fun look at more “everyday life” of the couple that differs in tone from the more tense event/reaction scenes that make up so much of the scenes. No gamesmanship, no forced actions, just an intimate look at how they interact on a typical day. Also I think the scene was a table-setter for Tyrion’s upcoming weddng and whatever they have planned fo Shae.

    Michel,

    I would wager that Joff’s new toy is in fact THE crossbow that Tyrion will use later.

  80. Hi-Fi
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    The DarkStar,

    Margaery sure is playing the game. She actually approves when Joff says he thought of making homosexuality punishable by death (and we all know that’s bullshit, since she loves her brother).

  81. Scott Glennon
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Loved the arrival of the Reeds. Jojen was spot on. I’m still on the fence about Meera. She was one of my Favorite characters in the book, so we’ll just have to see…

    For Winterfell!

  82. Maxwell James
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Good episode. Have to agree that the Tyrion-Shae scene did not work however. The chemistry between Dinklage and Kekilli has been on-again, off-again the entire run. In this one it was definitely off.

    I liked the Cat scene. It wasn’t book Cat, but I’ve learned not to expect that at this point.

    And yeah, the Jaime-Brienne scenes were definitely the highlight – along with Lady Olenna – although the swordfight was not as great as it was in the novel.

  83. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Jamb0:
    Man, that scene w/ Bran + Reeds on the road was so good, probably my favorite of the episode. I got some Tower of Joy-chills when they started talking about Howland and Ned….

    I’m gonna try and not get too hopeful for one to show up this season, but man…one of my favorite passages from the book. Could you just imagine Sean Bean showing up for a surprise cameo? I hadn’t heard about Drogo coming back for s2, so anything could happen :)

    I really wanted some Tower of Joy discussion. But hearing Howland’s name made my night.

  84. Jamb0
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Hi-Fi:
    Did “Boy” tell Theon he was sent by Yara? Did I heard it right?

    You heard it right.

  85. Bow
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Forgive me, but are we getting Vargo Hoat? I really want to hear him say “you are my captith.”

  86. Seriano
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who got chills in that first scene, when Bran hears Ned’s voice, looks up and only sees the leaves rustling?

    It remembered me of Bran’s last chapter in ADWD, when Ned is the one who hears Bran in the rustle of the leaves of the heart tree.

  87. Clob
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    After last week it seemed to me like they were almost trying to soften viewer perceptions of Joffrey, a little bit. At least that’s what I got from the scenes, such as the dinner. Even this week they really didn’t do anything to make us hate him more. He remained his normal jerky-toned self in the scene with Cersei of course. The beginning scene with Margaery in his room began with him as a prick, but then it showed more of the giddy boy side of him. I don’t suspect that viewers are changing their minds in wanting his head, but they’re not giving us reason yet to continually bring up our dislike of the character.

  88. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Bow,

    No, we are not, sadly.
    Locke will be taking Vargo Hoat’s place. He is the leader of the Bolton bannermen, like Hoat was the leader of the Bloody Mummers.

  89. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Bow:
    Forgive me, but are we getting Vargo Hoat?I really want to hear him say “you are my captith.”

    Not Vargo, but the “sapphires” scene is supposedly going to happen, so that should make up for it.

  90. Andrew
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    That episode was great! Top scenes for me had to be Sansa, Margaery, and the Queen of Thorns, and the introduction/subsequent walk with the Reeds. The Jamie and Brienne duel was also really exciting to watch, really well done portraying Jamie’s fatigue and Brienne’s anger as the fight went on.

    The Cat monolouge made me like Cat more, so that’s a plus. Also, holy torture, Theon. That’s gonna be good!

    Still not super keen on the directing. Visually, it wasn’t nearly as interesting as some other episodes have been. It wasn’t bad, it was just sort of standard.

  91. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Hi-Fi:
    The DarkStar,

    Margaery sure is playing the game. She actually approves when Joff says he thought of making homosexuality punishable by death (and we all know that’s bullshit, since she loves her brother).

    If you watch that scene again, you’ll see a momentary look of fear cross Margaery’s face when Joffrey first says that. Nice little bit of acting from Dormer.

  92. Lord Selwyn
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Bow:
    Forgive me, but are we getting Vargo Hoat?I really want to hear him say “you are my captith.”

    No. Vargo Hoat has been replaced by Locke. The story has been streamlined (sensibly) and Locke is Bolton’s ‘best hunter’ referred to in Ep 1.

  93. Clob
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    “What in seven hells are you doing with the Stark bitch?”
    Great segment ender!

  94. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    After last week it seemed to me like they were almost trying to soften viewer perceptions of Joffrey, a little bit.At least that’s what I got from the scenes, such as the dinner.Even this week they really didn’t do anything to make us hate him more.He remained his normal jerky-toned self in the scene with Cersei of course.The beginning scene with Margaery in his room began with him as a prick, but then it showed more of the giddy boy side of him.I don’t suspect that viewers are changing their minds in wanting his head, but they’re not giving us reason yet to continually bring up our dislike of the character.

    I don’t think Joffrey is going to be the most hated character after this season. That title is going to belong to Ramsay.

  95. Markos
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    no Varys again? :(

  96. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    The whole Theon/Reek is going to happen as I expected. Ramsay been a good guy, he frees Theon to later recapture him. But I imagined that to happend for the whole season. For the preview, Theon escape is gona be next episode and I think they recapture him in the 4º. What are they gonna do that arc? I think 6 episodes of only torture will be boring. Since we saw Yara in the trailer, I hope they invent some stuff, like Yara attempting a desesperate rescue for her brother.

  97. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    And the feareful look when he metions she was at a traitor’s side.. Dormer has those subtle looks and gestures to really let the viewer see her inner dialog,to see the heels tuning in er mind as she adjusts her apprach to mke the necessary comment to appease the volatile Joffrey.

    Like the way she touches Joffrey, but she strokes the crossbow instead of Joff himelf. Knoing joffrey is a sadist she touches his weapon of death to arrouse him… and change the subject. Brilliant.

  98. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Just a ps: I hope as the story passes, they show more of Kevan. The guy only appears for 1 or 2 scenes each season. I can’t imagine D&D cutting his death.

  99. Noshit
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    I think I’m in love with Meera.

  100. The DarkStar
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    ZERO BOOBS!!

  101. JamesL
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Decent episode but a step down from the premiere. I said it before but I’m going to say it again filming in Iceland was a mistake. That dull plain landscape just dulls down the beyond the Wall scenes. There is no mystery or eeriness to beyond the Wall in Iceland just dullness. I really wish they were filming these scenes in creepy wintery forests. They also never film at night in Iceland because I don’t think they can which is another reason of why it is wrong for beyond the Wall. Beyond the Wall should be creepy and mysterious and the Iceland landscape is anything but that.

  102. AshStorm
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    In the very beginning where Brann is flashbacking to his family in his dream, I would have FRIGGING SQUEALED like a little girl if Eddard (Sean Bean) made a cameo to say the line

  103. Shock Me
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    This episode was pretty good. Given the changes they had to make up for, this episode did well to get the story back on track.

  104. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Wow. GoT was really firing on all cylinders tonight. Great episode.

    I pretty much liked everything. Honestly, I can’t think of a single scene that dragged, or seemed out of place, or wasn’t kick ass “enough”.

    A lot of foreshadowing with the Reeds going on. Same with Jaime & Brienne. Those are the story lines I’m paying most attention to at least… hint, hint.

    Loved Joffrey’s scenes though. Jack Gleeson truly is a brilliant actor. He really brought that part to life. Because, book-Joffrey is a bit of a one-dimensional character — hateful. And you don’t really get a sense of what drives that hate, other than him being a spoiled little prick. But Gleeson’s Joffrey is a spiteful prick on the outside, but a frightened boy on the inside, overcompensating for his impotence in a court surrounded by killers. And he conveys that fear very subtly, which is perfect… something he tries very hard to conceal, at all costs.

    Also loved the Ramsay twist. Granted, it would’ve been more ideal if they could’ve stuck to the original story, but they couldn’t, so whatever. But I’m pretty happy with the sneaky way in which he’ll be introduced — playing mind games with Theon. Because that’s really what makes Ramsay so twisted. Anybody can inflict physical pain on another, but it takes something more — something even more sadistic to inflict psychological torture. And when that comes to fruition, and we all find out that “Yara’s rescuer” is actually Ramsay just fucking around, it’s going to hit pretty hard.

    And lastly, a few shout-outs to Tyrion & Shae, Olenna Tyrell and all my warg homies out there. Represent!

  105. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Was that scene of Bran, Robb and Jon been the Stark reunion in these season that some magazine talked?

  106. Zack
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Before I read any comments I just want to say that that episode is one of the best of the series so far. Top 10 easy. I can’t think of a flaw. 9 or 9.5/10

    -Jojen/Meera had a perfect intro. -Queen of Thorns is marvelous and yet again Natalie Dormer is epic with a Joffrey scene. She’s a total puppeteer of him right now, and I love it. -Cracks developing in the Tyrion/Shae relationship, believably enough. I hope they don’t escalate Shae’s paranoia too quickly. Slow boil! -And Theon, holy hell. Poor guy. His story is going to be painful to watch. Ramsay’s plan will be amazing. -Loved Grenn and Edd with Sam too. Edd could have more screen time for me, he’s always so funny. -Cat’s scene with Talisa was really nice, I’m glad they added it. It seemed really honest, and I felt her inner conflict. -BwB fucking kicked ass, and OMG the ending. Bastards, ending it right there. Is it the 14th yet?

    What my plan is for the season is to basically watch the new episode twice the night it airs, then again at the next week prior to each new episode. And watching 1 & 2 back to back I just really loved things like Karstark and Bolton together. They’re doing that part of it so well so far.

    Also, from last week’s episode “Watch out for her. Watch out for her with him”
    I remember thinking, she’s going to take that “him” to be Tyrion soon enough, and here we are.

  107. telobsidion
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Lin Beifunk,

    I’m not sure they’ve given a reason on the show, but I imagine Shae has a soft spot for abused and used women, and more simply that she’s just managed to bond with her.

  108. JamesL
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Shae wouldn’t have chemistry with anyone because the actress is really bad. Probably one of the worst cast characters the show has down.

  109. Shan
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    Yeah, okay, but what do intelligent viewers have to go on, exactly?

    Every scene we’ve actually had of Jaime fighting, he’s either been fighting someone unarmed or he’s lost. If I wasn’t a book reader, but was an intelligent viewer, the impression I’d have of him is an overly cocky, not actually very skilled fighter who talks a good game but loses every time in real life. I might even start to wonder if half the stories he tells about the Kingswood Brotherhood and so on are made up.

    Which is fine and all, but it would change the meaning of the Thing Which Will Happen Next Episode — change it drastically.

  110. persephone88
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Loved: Seeing the direwolves again, both Summer and Shaggydog. They are making great use of the CGI. I think I am enjoying the wolves as much as the dragons, if not more.

    - Margaery. I was not crazy about how DandD presented her on the show as so overtly manipulative, but she was very very good with episode, both with Sansa and Joffrey. Sansa also totally rocked the dinner party scene with the Tyrells, beautifully played.

    - Jaime and Brienne. Only wish there was more time to see more of them, and looking forward to how their relationship changes in captivity.

    - Major thanks to DandD for hewing so closely to the book in the Tyrell dinner party scene – so great to see that come to life!

    - Robb and Karstark. I think it was good to set up the simmering tension there and reinforce Karstark’s need for vengeance.

    -Opening of Bran’s dream, and seeing Robb and Jon beside him.

    Liked: Seeing the Night’s Watch. Return of Rast! And Mormont telling him to make sure Sam got back. Also have a soft spot for Grenn. We don’t see enough of them.

    Orell. I was terribly disappointed he was not cast as Vargo Hoat, but his scene with the eagle was creepy and I think he’s going to do well as Orell. However, I hate to say it, but I’m not so crazy thus far about Mance. I hope he doesn’t get the short shrift that Qorin did last season…

    The BwB. I also like humorous Thoros rather than morose Thoros. Wish we could have seen him and his flaming sword at the tourney in KL during the first season! Liked Anguy as well, good comraderie there. Was hoping we’d see Beric, but no dice. Wish the Hound’s reveal would have been more jarring, but really looking forward to seeing him and Maisie. She was terrific as always.

    Cat’s speech: after all the brouhaha, I thought it was just fine. I like seeing her make the dream catcher thingie like she had at Bran’s bed, and I thought her wavering between dislike of Jon and feeling a mother’s tug when he was ill was appropriate, esp. as she said she could not bring herself to love him in the end. And Michele Fairley played it well. It seemed like Lord Hoster had already died from what Robb said, so will we get any of the “Forgive me / Tansy” speech or any allusions to the Lysa/LF connection when they go to RIverrun?

    Not crazy about: Tyrion and Shae. I couldn’t tell if Shae meant it when she acted annoyed / jealous over Tyrion’s Sansa comments, or if it was meant to be sarcastic, or bad acting, or what.

    I’ll be the great dissenter here and say that I thought Diana Rigg was okay but not terrific. I loved the QoT in the book, and while I loved so many of her zingers being captured in the dinner scene, Olenna seemed to be incredibly sweet with extreme tartness underneath in the book, sweet until she threw a real verbal dart with incredible ease, and Dame Diane seemed to be more tart on the outside to me. I think she’ll do fine, but one can’t help but picture Maggie Smith in the role….

    Biggest disappointment for me was no Vargo Hoat. I am really HOPING that Locke is just as memorable and scary, but the cutting of the Brave Companions, and all there outrageousness, somany very memorable and creepy sellswords…well, I just hope Locke can ramp of the tension just as well in the upcoming episodes!

    I concur that the first two episodes did feel like re-intros, which is necessary I know for a show of this scope, but a double length first episode, I think, would have been more satisfying, even if we only got 9 total for the season that way.

    Looking forward to the next two and hoping the pace will pick up!

  111. The DarkStar
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Completely agree.
    Iceland was a mistake.

  112. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Hmm, the multple awards she has won for her acting may play against your opinion. Yes, the awards are fo her non-adult work. Multiple wins for Best Actress in German language film award shows.

    Different strokes an all that…. I think she can act and is great as Shae.
    I am not a huge fan of her characer, but I think the acress has done quite well!
    Hardly the worst actress IMO.

  113. Lundy
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Where is Ghost? I worry the story never hints at Stark wargs other than Bran.

  114. Shock Me
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    I loved the foreshadowing in Jaime’s line about a humorless mute following him around.

  115. The DarkStar
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    I really liked the Tyrion/Shea scene. It sets up some added drama for Tyrions marriage, and I’m starting to really buy in on Tyrion loving her. They have a now, much more believable relationship than book Shea.
    I see what he sees in her.

  116. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Ah, something that I have forgotten to tell, I didn’t like Thoros singing Rains of Castamere!

  117. kittie
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    So now negative opinion is illegal on this site. Perfect.

  118. Phil
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    While I did miss “The Bear and the Maiden Fair when Sansa was talking to Lady Tyrell, The Queen of Thorns is AMAZING. Jamie + Brianne fight was awesome. Thoros is much younger than I imagined when I read the book, but I guess they are combining him with Tom Sevenstrings. And even if he wasn’t going to be a main character, would it have hurt to have Lem Lemmoncloak. Just some guy wearing a yellow coat would have done it for me.

    Good introduction for the Reeds. Didn’t like the Shae/Tyrion stuff. I hope that they don’t make it Tyrion’s idea to marry Sansa to “protect” her

    Also Issac’s voice dropped and Sansa looks about the same age as Loras. I know the kids started out older than their book counterparts, but now there seems to be more of a difference, not sure how that will affect things farther down the line.

  119. JamesL
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Also, I think it was a bit too early to have a Khaleesiless episode considering she is the fan favorite and the shows biggest draw for the casual viewers. I’m also not sure if it was a good idea to introduce the whole Reek and Ramsay stuff this season since the show is already struggling juggling so many different story arcs, I don’t think it was really smart to add another one. They could held that off until season 4 and just had a scene or 2 with them this season to remind the audience who Theon is and that he is alive.

  120. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    kittie:
    So now negative opinion is illegal on this site. Perfect.

    No, wishing death on the writer is not allowed. You can have as negative of an opinion of the show as you want, but saying you want someone to die is taking it too far.

  121. Gwalchmai
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Robin,

    Robin,

    Robin,

    I thought it was weak also

  122. Andy Gavin (@asgavin
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Overall, a fun episode, if not particularly meaty in any one area. Besides, any show that gives us Natalie Dormer in a backless dress holding a crossbow… :-) Although more seriously, there is a process of narrative separation happening with the story in GOT, inherited from the novels. The first book of the series begins with two narrative threads and fractures into four. With the second, and increasingly so as the series progresses, the number of stories grows and grows. They interweave, split and merge. This has led to episodes like this, where each individual story is but a blip in the bigger picture. When viewed one at a time, they feel a bit fragmented, but from the perspective I’ve gotten watching seasons 1 and 2 all together on Blu-ray (which looks awesome BTW), I think it will feel coherent as part of the continuous whole. Anyway, you can find my more detailed thoughts on this episode on my blog as usual.

  123. Hi-Fi
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    That’s the only decision that didn’t really sit well with me. I thought it was a mistake not having Dany in this episode after her strong scenes in the premiere. That said, what can they really do when they have so many storylines to juggle?

  124. JamesL
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    The DarkStar,

    I’m glad I’m seeing more people bring this up about Iceland. I posted about this on the IMDB board and pretty much all the commenters agreed that Iceland just isn’t working. There is nothing creepy or mysterious about being able to see for miles all around you. I hope more people start talking about this because I know Cogman reads this site and maybe they could rethink Iceland or at least find some forest to film in Iceland. Does Iceland not have forests? Because I have to see one tree in any Iceland scene.

  125. Shadowcat85
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Definitely agree that this episode felt slower than last week’s- the pacing was just off. Also don’t know how I feel about Margaery having the most screen time so far (and I adore Natalie Dormer). Loved Thomas Sangster.

  126. Michel
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if we are going to see any guy from Locke group with lines..

    Could that guy serving QOT be Left or Right?

    And the guy that is torturing Theon? Yellow Dick?

    *nerd book pourist talking*

  127. Karazax
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    An OK episode overall. Nothing terrible if I completely ignore the books, though my non-book reader girlfriend thought it was boring and fell asleep a little past Cat’s speech to Talisa.

    I liked the Reeds, the Tyrell dinner party, the north of the wall scenes were better than last week. Theon’s scenes were decent. Jaime and Brienne was ok.

    Didn’t like Shae’s scene with Tyrion, or Cat and Talisa. It’s funny that Shae would be more upset about Tyrion saying Sansa is pretty than him admitting that he had slept with Ros twice. Shae being Sansa’s guardian angel is also not something I am a fan of. The Cat thought of herself as the mother of Jon Snow change has been discussed in depth already and just say I’m on the side that didn’t like it.

    There were a lot of other scenes that were just ok. Margaery and Joffrey. Cersei and Joffrey. Neither was bad, but both felt really long and didn’t add much to the story to warrant creating them over adapting something directly from the book. Arya’s scenes were ok, but she certainly is completely helpless still. I think it was better than most of season 2, but I wasn’t a fan of most of season 2.

  128. Strepsi
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Bow,

    The Bastard is in, and it looks like it’s going to be hard to watch — because they’re SHOWING us this horrible torture that was only offstage and revealed after the fact in the book(s). Yikes.

  129. Joan Català
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I think the Cat Monologue was good, not great, and essentially pointless. That screentime could’ve been given a better use, for example the Reeds, which in my opinion were introduced in a rushed manner. More exposition was needed there.

    Also, after seeing the Tyrion/Shae scene, I have this theory forming in my mind about how Shae will become very jealous of Sansa (and angry at Tyrion) when they are married. And this would eventually develop into her testifying against him in the S4 trial.

  130. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    I’m not sure Iceland will be much of an issue foou after this season.
    Aren’t they pretty much done filming beyond the wall?

    Most will be on The Wall and that is done in Ireland I’m pretty sure.

    I do miss the creepiness of the forests described in the books (or for that matter the opening scene of the pilot), but I can feel the isolation of the North in the Icelandic landscape. So it worked for me on that level I guess.

  131. Strepsi
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Karazax,

    @ Karazax, RE: ” Margaery and Joffrey… felt really long and didn’t add much to the story to warrant creating them over adapting something directly from the book.”

    I TOTALLY disagree. Margaery is one of the best Game players in the books, but is not a narrator, so we never really find out HOW she managed to deal with Cersei and Joffrey.

    And Joffrey is such a psychopath, the major villain of the show, you want to see how someone who is pledged to marry him can navigate his mental state. Plus she’s a great actor: I thought the scene was fantastic.

  132. Patchy Face
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    Absolutely loved this episode. I swear that Jack Gleeson needs an Emmy. He is always fabulous – now, the smitten little psychopath. The Tyrells are really playing the Game! only complaint – that hour went much too quickly.

  133. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Forgot to mention this in my recap but Jaime’s line about the throne being made out of cocks is a shoe-in nominee for Best One-Liner in this year’s WiCnet Awards. Hilarious!

  134. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Strepsi,

    Agreed.
    That scene was one of the highlights of the episode for me. Watching Margaery manuever through all the pitfalls Joffrey was setting was just brilliant! Every little nuance of Dormer’s perfomance was spot on.

  135. Val
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Loved it!
    The only thing I’m not sure about is where they’re getting at with Shae. How is her later betrayal gonna be believable? And it’s nice that Sansa has someone on her side I guess, but it’s still gonna make everything weirder.
    I thought bringing in the Hound early made sense though, if Harwin is out then there’s no reason for them not to let Arya go.
    The Queen of Thorns is perfect, as were the Reeds. Wonder how the Stark boys will split up, if at all?
    Aaaaah poor Theon can’t hate on him when I know what’s coming. Isn’t this ‘boy’ character too young to be the Bastard? (Unless it’s been confirmed). Still, I know he’s not a nice guy and Yara sure as hell didn’t send him.
    The Cat monologue was fine, it just said that she tried to make herself love Jon and couldn’t, and felt guilty about once wanting him to die. Slight character alteration.

  136. JamesL
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    I’m pretty sure we will at least get some stuff in forests this season when they get back to Crasters and Jon goes to climb the Wall.

  137. persephone88
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    I have to concur. Jack Gleeson is terrific – he hints at so much under the surface with Joffrey. Joffrey could be a real one note villain in the wrong hands, and Jack adds a lot of shading in his facial expressions and tone. Give that young man an award!

  138. Zack
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Patchy Face,

    He’s hitting every note perfectly. I always thought Gleeson was a solid Joff, but he was so one-note until this season and Gleeson is nailing all the nuances and making Joff this sniveling, scared peacock, boastful and smitten when not lying through his teeth or cowering in fear.

    It’s great to watch.

  139. Patchy Face
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    persephone88,

    Also – Did you notice Grey Wind in Robb’s scene? I am loving the dire wolves too.

  140. Darquemode
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Was Craster’s set in Iceland?

    I thought they filmed thsoe scenes weeks before they went to Iceland. I thought it was in Belfast. All the shooting locations get confusing though so I could be wrong and the Craster’s Keep set could be in Iceland not Ireland.
    ETA:
    Oh, sorry. I meant that after this season you should not have to worry.
    I’m sure you’re right and we will have more Iceland scenes this year.

  141. Patchy Face
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    How can we lobby for JG to get nominated for awards this year? He says he is not acting anymore after GoT. What a waste!

  142. Visenya
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    I think the show has made it abundantly clear that Book!Cat and Show!Cat are two entirely separate people so by that reasoning the monologue was tolerable. Michelle Fairley’s delivery was very good.

    Simply cackled at the Theon/Ramsay stuff. Things are going to get twisted.

    Oh and Diana Rigg was every bit as fabulous as promised.

  143. dubq
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Wow, Bran is of height with Jon Snow.. And has puberty voice now. Showrunners really need to find a way to explain away the fact that kid can go from 10 to 13 within a year.

  144. ebevan91
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    What happened to the trees we saw in the season 1 episode 1 prologue and the trees we saw early in season 2 at Craster’s? Where are the TREES? Trees make things more eerie because visibility is lower. The beyond the Wall stuff now isn’t eerie at all because you can see miles ahead of you.

  145. JamesL
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    The Crasters set is in Ireland. Which is why I like those scenes because the set is creepy and they are in the forest and can film at night. Once they get back to Crasters there most likely won’t be any more dull Iceland scenes.

  146. dubq
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Michel:
    Ah, something that I have forgotten to tell, I didn’t like Thoros singing Rains of Castamere!

    He’s doing it to draw out any Lannister supporters into thinking that they are allies, obviously.

  147. dubq
    Posted April 7, 2013 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    ebevan91:
    What happened to the trees we saw in the season 1 episode 1 prologue and the trees we saw early in season 2 at Craster’s? Where are the TREES? Trees make things more eerie because visibility is lower. The beyond the Wall stuff now isn’t eerie at all because you can see miles ahead of you.

    They aren’t AT Craster’s…. Yet.

  148. ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    dubq: They aren’t AT Craster’s…. Yet.

    But we saw Craster take the baby boy to the white walker and trees were everywhere.

  149. dubq
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Also, that reviewer, prior to the premiere, who said that Catelyn’s speech about Jon was “character assassination” should probably give their head a shake. What a dumb statement.

  150. JamesL
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    ebevan91,

    Thank you! Maybe if we keep complaining about it they will start filming in places that do the eeriness of beyond the Wall justice next season. I remember reading that they plan on going back to Iceland for S4. We need to stop them!

  151. dubq
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    ebevan91: But we saw Craster take the baby boy to the white walker and trees were everywhere.

    Yeah, and? Did you even read what I posted? You are talking about a lack of trees NOW. In these episodes. No one is at Crasters yet. If they get to Crasters next week and there are no trees, then complain all you want.

  152. Monica
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    My only preference from ASoS might have been when the Stark bannerman bent the knee upon recognizing Arya, rather than having the Hound call her a wolf-bitch. OK, I was curious about the chemistry between Tyrion and Shae. She threatened to kill him several times when they first met!

    Wonderful Queen of Thorns, Jaime & Brienne, Jon & Mance, Jojen & Meera, liked Cat’s speech, Theon getting set-up, and watching Margaery manipulate Joffrey better than his mother could!

    Would be nice to spend a little more time with the characters, and fewer vignettes.

  153. bleh
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    why does Jaime want to kill Brienne? she’s escorting him back to King’s Landing. can anyone explain his motives?

  154. Winter
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Would it have been hard to give one of the BwB members a yellow cloak? DAMN you Benioff and Weissssss!!!!!!

  155. The Pain Yak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Val,

    I have this deep and abiding fear, given the way they’re casting Shae in such a sympathetic light, that they’re going to wimp out on the Shae storyline and not follow it through to its extraordinarily ugly ending. She won’t betray Tyrion, Tyrion won’t kill her, or both. I hope I’m wrong; it would be good to be reminded that Tyrion is quite morally grey in many respects and not a straightforward hero.

    H0wever, as I see it, there are at least two potential leads for the show to follow the path to Book Shae’s ultimate end, one obvious and in common with the books and the other distinct to the show: her own sense of self-preservation and her jealousy over Sansa.

    The first I expect we’ll see in something like the form of a scene between a revealed Shae and Cersei after Tyrion’s arrest. She begins the scene determined not to betray Tyrion, only to grudgingly and bitterly adopt what seems a realistic attitude: her options are to hang for an already doomed man or to betray him and live, so she chooses the latter. As long as she does it with great regret, it doesn’t completely invalidate her previous sympathetic traits. Perhaps we’ll see something like that in Season 4. Or not.

    The second became pretty obvious tonight. Show Shae is not going to be pleased at all when Tyrion marries Sansa. I would like to think the writers would make Show Shae intelligent enough to understand that Tyrion has no choice in a marriage arranged by his father, but I have a sinking feeling that they won’t and she’ll hate him for it, which may play a role in her later betrayal. I hope they don’t take this route. It would make her seem quite stupid.

  156. Lord Greenleaf
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    Craster’s keep is in the haunted forest. Mance Rayders camp is in the Frostfang Mountains. Big difference between the two places.

  157. dubq
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    bleh:
    why does Jaime want to kill Brienne? she’s escorting him back to King’s Landing. can anyone explain his motives?

    He does this in the books as well. It is never explicitly said but you basically get the idea that he is “his own man” and doesn’t want to be lead like a prisoner to KL.

  158. dubq
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    Lord Greenleaf:
    Craster’s keep is in the haunted forest. Mance Rayders camp is in the Frostfang Mountains. Big difference between the two places.

    THANK YOU! I seriously wonder what goes through the brains (or lack of) of some of the people who make comments here.

  159. Winter
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    bleh:
    why does Jaime want to kill Brienne? she’s escorting him back to King’s Landing. can anyone explain his motives?

    Maybe it had something to do with the man they left alive? It did lead to them getting captured by Stark men.

  160. Caro H
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Oh gods yesssss the hound is back!!!!!! And sophie turner was terrific in her scenes!
    Everything was just so so amazing!!

  161. ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    dubq: Yeah, and? Did you even read what I posted? You are talking about a lack of trees NOW. In these episodes. No one is at Crasters yet. If they get to Crasters next week and there are no trees, then complain all you want.

    I’m saying that beyond the Wall is supposed to be FILLED with trees, yet for most of last season and this season, we’ve seen none. It’s weird having trees in 2 different spots, then a bunch of nothingness for leagues and leagues.

  162. GG
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    I personally liked the Cat scene. Cat is a loving woman. I would find it highly unbeleivable she spent 17 years wishing death on Jon. I don’t like people and even I relent sometimes and Cat’s a lot nicer than I am.

    While I loved the episode, I’m gald they’re done. We’ve reached the precipice and ep 3 will put us over the edge into a solid rollercoaster drop for at least 3 eps. This season is AMAZING!!!

  163. dubq
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    ebevan91: I’m saying that beyond the Wall is supposed to be FILLED with trees, yet for most of last season and this season, we’ve seen none. It’s weird having trees in 2 different spots, then a bunch of nothingness for leagues and leagues.

    THEY ARE IN DIFFERENT AREAS. If I need to explain it any further than that.. I give up.

  164. sig79
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Ramsay freaking Bolton!!!! Hell yeah!

    Cannot wait for more Arya story and Jaime/Brienne.

    And Thoros singing Rains of Castamere =awesome.

  165. ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    dubq: THEY ARE IN DIFFERENT AREAS. If I need to explain it any further than that.. I give up.

    I know but given the scope of what we’ve seen recently, the show is making it look like it’s all just open land when it’s really not.

  166. Arthur
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    So now that I watched it twice and let it all sink in…

    I must say another awesome episode.

    My favorite scene is Marg vs Joff… The acting by these two actors was amazing. You can visibly see Marg’s thought process gears grinding as she looks for ways to answer Joff that will appeal to him. She takes his best insults and turns them around in answers that will please him. She is manipulating him so well and the portrayal on screen was amazing! I can’t wait to see more Marg at KL!

    Bran’s storyline was awesome and the Reeds were better then I imagined they could be. So cool how Jojen came to Bran’s dreams, then to him in real life. Loved the CGI of the big badass dire wolfs! All the former Reed haters are probably very happy the Reeds are in the TV series now. Bran’s storyline has so many cool characters to work with now.

    The Arya storyline was entertaining and fun, made me laugh out load quite a few times with Arya trying to be all tough with a sword.

    Theon’s was okay, we will see how well that develops.

    Jamie with Brienne scenes were good, they strayed from the books a little on the sword fight but it would of been a hard task and such a long sword fight to show how Jamie got tired out (from lack of exercise, healthy diet and all… Hell the guy has been in chains for months) by Brienne. I mean they had to adapt it to work on TV… The most important aspect of the Jaime vs Brienne swordfight was kept intact… At the end when Brienne just owns Jaime with one hand, the look on Jaime’s face said it all. He was rather amazed at how good of a fighter Brienne was. Now she has his utmost respect as a warrior.

    OT: Vikings was really good also. Best 3 hours of television every Sunday night. GoT at 9pm, then watch it again at 10pm, then switch to history channel for VIkings at 11pm. Now I got to wait a week for my 2 favorite shows =(

  167. Fiona
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    I found it fascinating that Margaery gave Joffrey the same “As is your right. You are the king” speech that she gave to Renly last season. Although she said to Renly A king and to Joffrey THE king. Also, Nikolaj got 2nd billing in the credits, which I think is deserved knowing this season’s storyline. And I’m a bit bummed that they changed the plot so that it was basically Brienne’s fault that they got captured, not Jaime’s recklessness for starting a loud swordfight in such dangerous territory. That makes her more responsible for what comes next. Hmm. Overall I LOVED this episode – had no problem with the other changes.

  168. Red Viper
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Is anyone worried that sam the slayer might be lost? In the preview for next week, it looked like they were already at Craster’s. Unless they have the seen earlier in the episode before they get there. It would be terrible if they didn’t have that

  169. Miss
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    I disagree that Cat’s speech was fine. Maybe what they’re trying to say is Cat blames herself, not that she ought to be blamed, but that is besides the point. The clear idea running through all the changes to Cat’s character is that she is more likeable if she is made to be more humble, it’s very much a taming of the shrew idea. I’m not going to bother debating it here, because it’s going to be an unwanted headache whenever you dare say anything negative about this show on this site. I’m just here to register my opinion on it. All this stuff about how she’s soooo jealous of Jon Snow’s mother and how she feels like she’s such a bad woman, it’s an unnecessary humbling of a female character to make her more likable as far as I’m concerned and I don’t care how well acted it is.

    I’ll regret leaving this comment here I’m sure, but whatever.

  170. MyBFFTheHound
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Still not sold on Mance. Everything else is ace though, Sophie Turners and Nathalie Dormers acting in the lunch-scene was great, topped off by DAME DIANA RIGG.

  171. JamesL
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    dubq,

    The First of the First men is supposed to be surrounded by trees, when Jon goes off with the Halfhand they are in forests, we have yet to see a tree in Iceland.

  172. ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Red Viper:
    Is anyone worried that sam the slayer might be lost? In the preview for next week, it looked like they were already at Craster’s. Unless they have the seen earlier in the episode before they get there. It would be terrible if they didn’t have that

    We saw 30 seconds of a 50+ minute episode. Surely they can still show it, though some think that we won’t see that until he and Gilly are back together.

  173. JamesL
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    Red Viper,

    No, it will just happen after Crasters not before.

  174. ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    dubq,

    The First of the First men is supposed to be surrounded by trees, when Jon goes off with the Halfhand they are in forests, we have yet to see a tree in Iceland.

    Finally I get some help here.

  175. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Robin,

    I’m with you. I thought their fight was poorly edited, choppy and not as believable as Ned vs. Jaime. Way too many shots to make their point, so to speak. Very few of the impacts felt convincing. I consider this the singular weak point of the episode, much like the Night’s Watch magically showing up to save Sam in the premiere with all their foreheads covered in blood.

    Still, I was completely satisfied with the episode. While part of me always wants more, that isn’t a true referendum on the quality of the premiere or this week’s episode. More so than most episodes from the past two seasons, this season feels so NATURAL so far. As always, impeccably cast, with the added benefit of being impeccably shot. They weren’t kidding about upping the cinematic ante this season. The cinematography’s never been so organic, in total sync with GREAT writing. I hope they keep this up the whole season. GoT’s never been this good.

  176. MyBFFTheHound
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    “It’s a hundred feet wide. HOW could we have passed it?”

  177. fauxkaren
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    The thing about Catelyn’s monologue that really bothers me is that I could practically hear Benihoff and Weiss patting themselves on the back for that scene because I think that THEY think that they totally understand Cat as a character and this scene was true to Catelyn and made her more likable.

    For example, the bit about wishing Jon dead.

    Yes, Catelyn did say “it should have been you” at Bran’s bed side and it’s like D&D looked at that scene and thought “a ha! Catelyn wishes Jon were dead! Let’s fix this on the show by having her regret that awfulness!”

    Which.

    Is not really true?

    She does blurt out “it should have been you” when she was consumed with exhaustion and grief, but that is not her general reaction to Jon’s existence??? She doesn’t want Jon dead as a general rule. She just wants him to be not at Winterfell.

    And then you have the bit about Cat being jealous of Jon’s mother.

    Like

    Yes, she does refer to Jon’s mother as a ghost in her marriage.

    But again, that is NOT why she has an issue with Jon???

    So like that whole scene just demonstrates how Benihoff and Weiss lack a real understanding of Catelyn and the Catelyn-Jon relationship.

  178. Arthur
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Also, has anyone noticed how D&D are doing a much better job at time management? Every episode basically has lasted up to the end of the hour timeslot. Last season it was so annoying when I would wait a week to watch the next episode and when it was over I would look at the clock and it would be like 9:47pm. Made me feel so cheated. This season, so far, they are pushing each episode very close to an hour. Good job D&D! =)

  179. Red Viper
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    ebevan91,

    Ok, just was checking if there were rumors out there about it.

  180. Fiona
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Was anyone else puzzled that Osha was calling Bran’s abilities dark magic and saying she doesn’t want to hear about his dreams? Besides differing from the book, it also differs from Osha’s attitude last season, encouraging Bran’s wolf dreams and everything.

  181. eetrebor
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    ebevan91: I’m saying that beyond the Wall is supposed to be FILLED with trees, yet for most of last season and this season, we’ve seen none. It’s weird having trees in 2 different spots, then a bunch of nothingness for leagues and leagues.

    Wrong, the Frostfangs are described “cruel and inhospitable wilderness of stone and ice, jagged peaks eternally covered in snow”.

    Here’s a map of the lands beyond The Wall to refresh your memory:

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg

  182. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    This woman enjoyed the episode, especially all the time spent with the Stark family members. Loved seeing the direwolves everywhere, but where is Ghost now?

    Cat’s discussion with Talisa about Jon didn’t bother me as it did some, but it did show how complex an issue that his presence was for her to deal with, and that she was not emotionally mature enough at the time and had some regrets about her own behavior and felt some responsibility for her lot in life. Whew!

    And where was Pod? Lolz. Can’t wait for next week already!

  183. facelessarya
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    Being a major Sansa stan, I have to say, Sophie’s acting was absolutely superb this episode! Her range of facial expression completely encompasses Sansa’s character and she is so adept at shifting all her emotion with the blink of an eye! First, being a girl crushing on Loras and then to being a horrified, scared traitor’s daughter once more. Lovely performance, Soph!

  184. The Pain Yak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    I wish the Brienne-Jaime fight hadn’t seemed to end in a decisive victory for Brienne and instead shown them both ragged and exhausted. To date, Jaime the legendary badass has fought twice, once against Ned Stark to a draw and the second to Brienne in which he lost pretty conclusively. His badass credentials are at stake.

  185. Andrew
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    She didn’t say the “It should have been you” in the show, so they basically just transferred that event to when Jon was younger. It’s not remotely unbelievable to think she may have said to herself “I wish he was gone. I wish he was dead.” and then blamed herself when he got sick, because she’s obviously very religious.

    You don’t think Cat might have regretted telling Jon she wished he had died in the books? You don’t think that ever crossed her mind? Especially with her devotion to the seven, it probably did.

    I am honestly just…befuddled. Why are you angry that they took her from “I hate him, and i’ll never try to love him. He’s not my son, so to hell with him.” and turned it into “I tried to love him, but I just couldn’t. I couldn’t get over the fact that he was a bastard, as hard as I tried.” It went from flat out hating him, and feeling justified in that hate, to being unable to get over that hate even though she tried. It went from flat, unmotivated dick move to a deep, human emotion.

    If you can explain why this change is such a character assassination that makes her a worse character than she was before, I swear to you I will try to listen and understand, but right now I just don’t see it.

  186. Scott Glennon
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    So a few minutes ago I tweeted Kristian Nairn to tell him I really liked tonight’s show…and he tweeted me back! How cool is that?! :-)

    For Winterfell!

  187. Stephanie
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    Am I blind, WHERE WAS RICKON???

  188. Andrew
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Scott Glennon,

    Nice! It’s always really great when celebrity’s get the opportunity to interact with fans, even though they’re really busy. I always appreciate it when they do that, even if they can’t reply to everyone. Kristian FTW!

  189. Ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    eetrebor: Wrong, the Frostfangs are described “cruel and inhospitable wilderness of stone and ice, jagged peaks eternally covered in snow”.

    Here’s a map of the lands beyond The Wall to refresh your memory:

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg

    You are right but I should have been more specific, I’m talking about Sam’s travels, look at the area around the Fist, it is surrounded by trees.

  190. The Pain Yak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Stephanie,

    I was surprised to see no one else say anything about this. Shaggy Dog and Rickon are a no show. Where’d they go? Could they not get the kid who plays Rickon back this season for some reason?

  191. Utiz4321
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    The fight was way to one sided. I didn’t think it was good at all.

  192. Utiz4321
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    The fight was way to one sided.

  193. House Snow
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Fiona:
    Was anyone else puzzled that Osha was calling Bran’s abilities dark magic and saying she doesn’t want to hear about his dreams? Besides differing from the book, it also differs from Osha’s attitude last season, encouraging Bran’s wolf dreams and everything.

    I don’t know I think there are a lot of indications in the book that Brans “magic” isn’t so benevolent. I’m really happy how well they introduced Brans supernatural stuff as I thought that could have real jumping the shark potential.

  194. Stephanie
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    The Pain Yak,

    Yeah I read through all the comments and even did a ctrl+f for his name and found literally nothing. I guess people were so excited to see the Reed sibs they forgot about the littlest lord.

  195. Andrew
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Stephanie,

    I’m 99% sure I saw Rickon in this episode, in at least one scene.

  196. fauxkaren
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Andrew,

    In the books, that reaction at Bran’s bedside was an out of character moment brought on by grief and exhaustion. The way it was portrayed in the monologue from tonight’s episode made it seem like it was just Catelyn’s reaction to Jon’s mere existence. That’s a pretty big difference. Saying something awful in a moment of grief and desperation vs praying for a baby to die.

    (Also she does canonically feel guilt and shame when thinking about Jon when she meets Mya Stone.)

    But as for the other part of your comment, it’s character assassination in the same way that the change last season from Cersei ordering the murder of Robert’s bastards in the books to JOFFREY ordering Robert’s bastards in the books was character assassination.

    I’m mad that they felt like Catelyn needed to be fixed.

    NO. CATELYN CAN BE FLAWED AND STILL BE A LIKABLE AND SYMPATHETIC CHARACTER. She doesn’t have to regret not being a mother to Jon Snow to be likeable.

    Catelyn’s main character flaw is her attitude towards Jon. Why does that NEED to be taken away from her? Women can be flawed! Her flaws are what make her a more interesting character. Catelyn doesn’t need to be fixed. Why is it necessary that she try to get over that dislike of Jon?

    Catelyn had no choice in that situation. The only power she HAD was to not be happy about the situation her husband had forced her into. So let her dislike Jon! It’s part of what makes her a complex character.

  197. Kaeth
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    It doesn’t need longer story lines it needs less needy fans. As somone who’s read the books many times there doing as best they can with adapting it to a 1 hour show.

  198. bleh
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    is it a stipulation they mention farts in every episode? we’re 2 for 2 so far this season.

  199. Stephanie
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Andrew,

    When?? I’m skipping through on HBOGO for Bran’s scenes and I havent seen him, Osha mentioned him but I havent seen him.

    EDIT: Found him for a split second around 3:30. Was he hiding in the cart later too?

  200. House Snow
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    I don’t know my impression from sites like TWOP is that nonreaders hate Catelyn, despite already been made more sympathetic, so I’m not sure that I agree that there was no need to make her more likable. I think taking show watchers only into account there actually is a pretty good reason.

  201. Miss
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    Also, Catelyn did try in the books to love Jon Snow. She just couldn’t. That’s not something Benioff came up with as a stroke of their own genius. What they did that was never in the books was insert the idea that Catelyn feels she should have been a mother to Jon Snow. Even if one (including Catelyn) thinks that she should have been nicer to Jon Snow, why on earth should she ever feel like she should be his mother? Women are not obligated to be someone’s mother just because they are a mother to someone else. THAT’s the feminist subtext that completely goes over Benioff and Weiss’ head. It’s totally unfair that Jon should have had all this anger and resentment to deal with, but that doesn’t make it any more enlightened to think that because Cat was Ned’s wife and Jon’s siblings’ mother, she ought to have felt obligated to be Jon’s too. The fact that they just had to show her thinking this and thereby invoking audience sympathy is really unfortunate as far as I’m concerned.

    And where I’m coming from is: I think there are far more important things than a female character being likable. I don’t much care if 90% of fans hate Catelyn Stark, just like i don’t care if 90% of people hate Betty Draper or Skyler White. At least their show-runners had guts and went for real statements.

  202. House Snow
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Rickon and shaggy were there when Bran wakes up and rickon was there again when he ran away and Bran told summer to chase him.

  203. Andrew
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    To me, if they made Catelyn a loving mother to Jon I would be right there with you saying they were crazy. But all they did was make her hate him, while trying not to. That’s still a pretty big character flaw, but at the same time it compliments her motherly nature towards the rest of her children. She was a great mother, but she couldn’t bring herself to love Jon Snow. Still a flaw, but not such a contrasted one as loving her children and hating Jon. You just mentioned her feeling guilt when she met Mya, so I don’t see it as much of a departure really.

    I understand your displeasure more now, though. We may not agree, but you’re very good at articulating your opinion which is much more pleasant for discussion!

  204. Stephanie
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    House Snow,

    I didnt see him run off at the start, that explains why he wasn’t there for that scene. My mistake.

    Its easy to forget he’s there when he rarely has any speaking lines.

  205. Skipjack
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    The Pain Yak,

    I think there’s a third option. I don’t know that Shae will betray either Tyrion or Sansa, though Tyrion may be led to believe that she did. In either case, I’m pretty sure they are setting it up for Tywin to be the one to kill Shae, then Tyrion kills Tywin in revenge. Last week they even had Tywin announce openly he’d hang the next whore caught in Tyrion’s bed, and this week her appearance in Tyrion’s bedroom seemed to do nothing but have him reiterate how dangerous it is for her to be seen in his room. I agree it would lose something in making Tyrion the most overtly sympathetic character remaining, but at least they might avoid his pathetic wallowing throughout book 5. The show seems intent on flattening out the moral dilemmas for the characters, and Tyrion is already an unalloyed good guy, just on the bad team.

  206. Andrew
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Stephanie,

    Well, I can’t remember the time, as I don’t have HBOGO, but uhh…It was when Bran woke up from his dream, and Rickon popped out of the cart I think. I also suspect he was in the scene where Bran and the gang were walking down the road, talking to Jojen. My friend asked me something and I turned away, but I thought the person running through the field or something was Rickon. I don’t know though, I turned back towards the TV and was a bit confused about the situation, haha.

  207. Stephanie
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Andrew,

    Yeah, House Snow and I figured it out. thanks!

  208. Phil
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    The Pain Yak:
    Stephanie,

    I was surprised to see no one else say anything about this. Shaggy Dog and Rickon are a no show. Where’d they go? Could they not get the kid who plays Rickon back this season for some reason?

    Rickon was there. He was in the wheelbarrow while Bran was sleeping under the tent after they met the Reeds he went off ahead and Bran said “The wolves will look after him”

  209. Rafael
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    The whole episode was awesome.

    Anyone liked the Tyrion scene. In my opinion it was hilarious :D

  210. Matthew Meunier
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Great episode! I loved Thoros and Jojen in particular. This episode had my chuckling more times than any other episode so far

  211. Turncloak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Bran’s dream sequence was so good. And Thoros too!!! Oh man :)

  212. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    This felt just like a continuation of the premier. I agree that a 2 hour premier would have worked better. For the second week in a row there were not any bad scenes, though a couple probably could have been cut or pushed back into another episode(Shae and Tyrion/Sam and the NW). Overall I’d probably score it a tad lower than last week’s episode. Both were setting the stage for the rest of the season.

    Quick Thoughts:

    - Jaime and Brienne are great together. The fight was not nearly as good as in the books, which is to be expected. I thought it was much more like they were simply sparring, and there really wasn’t a definitive winner. By the way Jaime was breathing heavily I think they got across that he wasn’t in great shape. He also talked about his feet having corns and that he hadn’t changed his boots in a year. I suppose they could have had Brienne comment on Jaime being crazy for trying to fight in chains, which would have reminded the audience that Jaime was not near his best.

    - Thoros, the Brotherhood, and Arya were probably my favorite part of the episode. Paul Kaye was fantastic. Maisie continues to be brilliant. I loved how Thoros was singing ‘The Reynes of Castamere’. Just because it is a song about the Lannisters doesn’t mean other people can’t sing it. Anguy shooting the arrow in the air was hilarious. Poor Hot Pie!

    - Jojen really grabbed my attention from the start. I love how they are bringing stuff that we learned in ADWD in so soon. Bran IS the Raven. And the best part, a Howland Reed mention! Please let them tell the story of the tournament at Harrenhal. Jojen says their father never told him about the rebellion, but that he has seen what happened anyway. It was also nice to get our first mentions of warging. Now all they need to do is establish that Jon and the rest of the Starks are wargs as well.

    - Speaking of Jon, they better get Ghost to return to him soon, or else he won’t see him again until season 5. He is Jon’s direwolf, afterall, not Sam’s.

    - The QOT, as expected, was sharp tongued and hilariously honest. DDR is different than the tiny version of her character in the books, but not so different that it ruins anything. I’m looking forward to her interactions with the rest of the cast.

    - There was a ton of foreshadowing in the two Tyrell scenes. Perhaps a bit too much. I think people may already be guessing that they will be the downfall of Joffrey. Though I suppose it was all there in the books too if you were paying enough attention.

    - Cat’s story was okay with me. Certainly nothing close to character assassination. Talisa does nothing for me, but neither did Jeyne, or Robb for that matter.

    As I said, good episode, but I rate it slightly below the first. The reviews I had read said the premier was the one that felt weirdly edited, but I felt that way with this episode much more than last week’s.

    My ratings for the two episodes:

    ‘Valar Dohaeris’ – 8.8 out of 10
    ‘Dark Wings, Dark Words’ – 8.5 out of 10

  213. pntrlqst
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    For Larry fans out there: I’m about 10 minutes into his new review and the enthusiasm we all once loved so dearly seems to have returned. :)

  214. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    You’ve obviously never been any place where you can see for miles around you, then, as it can be both creepy and mysterious depending on the circumstances. I’m not saying anything about you taking issue with it in the show, as that’s more of an aesthetic preference, but I can say from experience that areas like that can be tremendously unsettling.

    As for myself, I love that they chose Iceland for far north of the Wall. It looks like an absolutely stunning country, and it looks beautiful on film. I’ve been watching this season with a 60 inch Sony LCD with 5.1 surround sound, and it’s freaking amazing. You notice a lot more of the detail that is put into everything, that’s for sure.

    Really, really enjoyed the episode overall. Jojen & Meera are very promising characters, Margaery is really coming into her own and it feels very organic within the narrative of this story, and everything looks and sounds fantastic. This was also one of the funniest episodes of the show, so props for that, as well.

  215. Suzaku
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Miss:
    fauxkaren,

    Also, Catelyn did try in the books to love Jon Snow. She just couldn’t. That’s not something Benioff came up with as a stroke of their own genius. What they did that was never in the books was insert the idea that Catelyn feels she should have been a mother to Jon Snow. Even if one (including Catelyn) thinks that she should have been nicer to Jon Snow, why on earth should she ever feel like she should be his mother? Women are not obligated to be someone’s mother just because they are a mother to someone else. THAT’s the feminist subtext that completely goes over Benioff and Weiss’ head. It’s totally unfair that Jon should have had all this anger and resentment to deal with, but that doesn’t make it any more enlightened to think that because Cat was Ned’s wife and Jon’s siblings’ mother, she ought to have felt obligated to be Jon’s too. The fact that they just had to show her thinking this and thereby invoking audience sympathy is really unfortunate as far as I’m concerned.

    And where I’m coming from is: I think there are far more important things than a female character being likable. I don’t much care if 90% of fans hate Catelyn Stark, just like i don’t care if 90% of people hate Betty Draper or Skyler White. At least their show-runners had guts and went for real statements.

    What exactly is wrong with a woman feeling like she has failed in her motherly duties towards Jon in the context of the setting? That being a medieval setting where motherhood is one of the most important duties a woman has, and where The Mother is an actual deity that Cat worships and prays to explicitly in the show?

    She prayed to The Mother, she swore oathes, and now she blames herself, superstitiously believing her inability to abide those oathes is leading to the ruin of her House.

    It seems fitting to me, given that this is set in basically “medieval Europe with dragons and zombies.”

  216. Kaeth
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Miss,

    I’m sorry but your entire post as half the post’s on here read are waha waha its not my way or what i thought. Get yourself a promotion or involved with hbo or involved with anything for that matter and you get to decide how the show goes.

  217. Miss
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    Kaeth,

    Are you really sorry? I kinda doubt that. You seem to be under the impression that if people don’t have only positive things to say they shouldn’t say anything at all. Good thing the moderators here are bigger kids than that. People are allowed to dislike the things you love and even *gasp* express themselves about it.

    My comments are about the show itself. Your comment is about my opinion of the show. Sorry (or am I) if I don’t feel particularly compelled by your advice.

  218. MX
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    I thought that the Cat scene was quite subtle. Cat may not have cared about how she treated Jon Snow while her family was healthy and powerful, but now she is experiencing anguish and she is wondering how other people are treating her children. I tend to identify with Cat in many ways, but I am somewhat glad of her suffering. GoT often has a subtext of karma (Ned beheaded because he beheaded an innocent at the beginning; Jaime loses his hand, with which he pushed the boy out the window; Theon tortured after burning the two boys…). In Cat’s contradictory behavior, I see a completely plausible development.

    As for Shae, there was a moment when the acting seemed a little weak, but that scene also served a purpose. While Shae is seductive and with some sense of justice, she is also unreliable. You can see her both enjoying having sex with Tyrion and keeping her distance, because he is not a big, powerful man, yet he is rich and intelligent. Tyrion loves her much more than she loves him, but there is some attraction between them — it’s basically a similar dynamic that they’ve had from the start. Although I like Kekilli (being very familiar with her background) and I want more actors on the show who are not northern European, I’m looking forward to some unreliability from her, but that’s because I would like a big fat happy ending with Tysha.

    The episode looked gorgeous, especially in the woods. My beef: I hate Ramsay, and I will leave the room every time he appears. Has nothing to do with the actor, but with the character — sorry Martin, you went a little too wild there. I know people who have been tortured and who lived through war – the fantasy of torture is a lot less fun when you know that it happens in real life and not just in a video game. I can tolerate innuendos with Joffrey, but when it’s explicit, I find it sickening.

  219. Jennifer
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    The Bolton sigil doesn’t have any pink on it! I found the Pepto Bismal shade of pink really unsettling and badass.. particularly incongruous with the typical shades of Westeros.

  220. Kaeth
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    Miss,

    your right my entire ” sorry” was for your poor opinion. As much as you think your opinions is above mine I’m aloud to have mine which is that your’s is a poor opinion to somone who is clinging to he books when this isnt a book its a show.

  221. Hi-Fi
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    Stephanie,

    Rickon is in the episode. He runs away from the group and Bran tells Summer to follow him.

  222. Qwerty
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    I have a serious crush on the girl playing Margaery. Queen of Thorns was great, as was Cat’s scene. Reeds! Good episode. I am yet to cringe after the first two episodes, which signals a big improvement on last year.

  223. KG
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    Robin,

    It stems from the decision to give everyone two-handed swords. They are slower by nature, and so is the fighting style. You can’t flash those around like you can a longsword or cavalry sabre.

  224. KG
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Bran’s dream sequence was so good. And Thoros too!!! Oh man :)

    My brother said “Who the hell is that?” then after a pause, “pretty big growth spurt there, kid.”

  225. Miss
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    Suzaku,

    Catelyn does feel extreme responsibility toward her own children, but a pseudomedieval Westerosi woman would never feel that same responsibility for their husband’s illegitimate children. Because the concept of marriage as a business transaction ensuring dynastic ambitions makes it incredibly unlikely (the modern concept of the nuclear family is relatively new). Even today, if a woman is cheated on she can refuse to step out of a marriage in which the husband’s conditions include care of the child who is the byproduct of his cheating. But this scene seems to be operating under this idea that any woman who is a mother at all should feel obligated to be any child’s mother, simply because they are some other child’s mother. I really can’t accept that from a show that, every single pre-season, puts up so much hype in the press about how much they love women and female characters and feminism.

    I don’t think it’s wrong for Cat to identify strongly as a mother, but she isn’t obligated to feel like she should have been Jon Snow’s mother, and I doubt there is ever going to be a moment scripted into the show where they clarify this point. Thus, their “message” is just as presented on the surface of this scene. Part of Cat feels deep down that she should’ve been a mother to Jon, which to me really just seems like capitulation to fans who never even liked Cat in the first place.

  226. Miss
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Kaeth,

    See, I never said my opinion was above yours. Those words are from your own mouth, don’t pin it on me. I just give people the respect of not giving an opinion on their opinion because why the hell should they care in the first place when we’re all here to talk about the show and not each other? etc.

  227. Meg
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    stunning episode again, I was transfixed on every scene (well, except the torture).

    FaBio please include this tweet in your twitter post! https://twitter.com/iscoff/status/200952211533086720

  228. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    House Snow,

    I think he’s talking more about her distracting Robb from his march South – Karstark’s problem is they are screwing around and losing momentum instead of taking the fight to King’s Landing. Joff and Tywin have gotten pretty settled in and the window of opportunity that the chaos of the War of the 5 Kings brought has closed. I don’t think he meant the Frey thing.

  229. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Robin:
    Was I the only one disappointed in the Brienne/Jaime sword fight?I feel like it was slow.Or awkward.

    I was right there with you, the best part was the arrival of Locke and Companions.

  230. Kaeth
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    Good to know the winter is coming is for facisim and manuplating ppl as my post was moved from behind somone when they posted first. Good thing to know if i’m for what they want I get bumped up and if not I get moved behind. guess I”ll be done with this site because iI’m not saying what they want to hear after 3 years of service.

  231. Kaeth
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    Kaeth,

    Kaeth,

    Ps i came up for the name kaeth well before Mr.Martin did.

  232. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    Visenya:
    I think the show has made it abundantly clear that Book!Cat and Show!Cat are two entirely separate people so by that reasoning the monologue was tolerable. Michelle Fairley’s delivery was very good.

    Simply cackled at the Theon/Ramsay stuff. Things are going to get twisted.

    Oh and Diana Rigg was every bit as fabulous as promised.

    Agree with the book and screen contrasts for Catelyn Stark. Ms Fairley will
    certainly be missed. I was distracted for a moment when the scene
    switched to Theon. I only heard his voice, absent of pain at first, almost a
    hint of laughter. That changed very quickly, but I felt guilty for having to
    suppress a snicker. That’s wrong… isn’t it?

    Ms Riggs will always command a performance, but I was relieved the scene
    called for her sitting down ( she’s quite tall ). I thought it amusing that the male
    servant wore blue.

    I’m finding Joffrey’s role on the show an improvement over last season’s
    ruthless brat. He’s calculative and simmering with evil, a change from the
    rapid boiling point of emotions.

  233. The Queen's Hand
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    dmf:
    Robin,

    I feel like he didn’t stand a chance, and he’s supposedly the best swordsman in Westeros…

    His hands were still chained together and he had been in a cage for a year; also she was wearing armor and he was wearing a shirt.

  234. Adria
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    is it really believable that Catelyn would show only disgust and hatred towards Jon Snow for 17 years?

    YES! She told Jon she wanted him dead instead of Bran!

    And given that she isn’t a horrible person,

    But she is! She told Jon she wanted him dead instead of Bran!

    Sorry, I strongly disagree with you on these points. I didn’t hate the Cat monologue, but I didn’t like it. It was an attempt to make her more sympathetic and understandable. I just don’t want to see her that way. I truly treasure my hatred of Catelyn Stark and I have to say I was not happy that she survived the RW. So personally, I don’t want to see a more sympathetic side of Catelyn. But it was an okay scene for the the show. They want to make the characters more gray than black-and-white. I just really don’t want to see Cat that way.

  235. The Queen's Hand
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    Kaeth:
    Good to know the winter is coming is for facisim and manuplating ppl as my post was moved from behind somone when they posted first. Good thing to know if i’m for what they want I get bumped up and if not I get moved behind.guess I”ll be done with this site because iI’m not saying what they want to hear after 3 years of service.

    Paranoid much, kiddo?

  236. The Queen's Hand
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    Adria:
    is it really believable that Catelyn would show only disgust and hatred towards Jon Snow for 17 years?

    YES! She told Jon she wanted him dead instead of Bran!

    And given that she isn’t a horrible person,

    But she is! She told Jon she wanted him dead instead of Bran!

    Sorry, I strongly disagree with you on these points. I didn’t hate the Cat monologue, but I didn’t like it. It was an attempt to make her more sympathetic and understandable. I just don’t want to see her that way. I truly treasure my hatred of Catelyn Stark and I have to say I was not happy that she survived the RW. So personally, I don’t want to see a more sympathetic side of Catelyn. But it was an okay scene for the the show. They want to make the characters more gray than black-and-white. I just really don’t want to see Cat that way.

    Um, she didn’t survive the red wedding

  237. Lexyvil
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    A very good episode! The show is still going strong judging from those 2 first episodes.

  238. Meg
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    fauxkaren: Catelyn’s main character flaw is her attitude towards Jon. Why does that NEED to be taken away from her? Women can be flawed! Her flaws are what make her a more interesting character. Catelyn doesn’t need to be fixed. Why is it necessary that she try to get over that dislike of Jon? Catelyn had no choice in that situation. The only power she HAD was to not be happy about the situation her husband had forced her into. So let her dislike Jon! It’s part of what makes her a complex character.

    This reminds me of a quote from Caitlan Moran that our culture views women as “makeover projects,” and I think that’s what has happened here with Cat. For some reason she needs to be the vehicle for audience pathos? So I agree with what you and Miss are saying. D&D don’t get the subtlety of her – they capture the oppressive “oh, the guilt!” of her chapters but miss what’s important about women’s resistance…I liked that in the books Cat was amongst the fighting and didn’t feel the need to lock herself in Winterfell and raise all 5 Stark kids.

    That said, I don’t know how, in her convo with Talisa, she lept from praying for Bran/Rickon’s safety to – Jon? Was she perhaps thinking that if Jon was in Winterfell he might have been able to protect them, and she feels partly responsible for his being at the Wall (though that was not her fault, IMO). If anything, she should have shared her thoughts on her own situation CURRENTLY: her husband’s dead, her own son thinks she’s a criminal, her kids are scattered to the Wind, and Winterfell is in ruins…but instead this bad shit is happening b/c she could’t be Jon’s mommy? It doesn’t flow logically. Beautifully acted, though…

  239. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    I enjoyed it.

    I find myself especially enjoying new scenes. I’m a faithful book reader and have read and listened to these books many times over. I know the story ridiculously well. While seeing A Storm of Swords on my screen is a GRRM junkie’s dream come true, what I miss about reading the books every time I revisit is that as wonderful and as subtle as they can be, in the main, they have now lost their ability to surprise me. You can only read or listen to something for the first time, once.

    These new scenes can bring that sense of wonder back to a hardcore fan. That’s a real gift folks. As long as these new imagined scenes fit the story, and it has the power to surprise us (in a good way)? We should be on our knees being thankful for it — not complaining. So I’m good with that.

    I enjoyed the Tyrion/Shae scene. That isn’t book Shae — but the Shae in the series isn’t book Shae. She’s different and they are different. I’m *totally* fine with that.

    I don’t know about Catelyn’s scene. Whether it is consistent to her character or not is beside the point. This was a bit of exposition to remind the viewer that Jon Snow is a bastard. Yes, we know that but it’s still reminding us of that fact. It did so a little heavy-handedly here, but the scene other wise worked.

    Theon’s scene? Well, I was always sympathetic towards Theon; most other book readers are not. I cannot help but imagine that the same redemption that Jaime received Theon will also receive from viewers. That’s not changing the tale at all — but it will have a different emotional effect on viewers in the longterm. That should be interesting to see take root.

    Thoros seemed a great deal more sinister than I remember him to be. I’m withholding judgment on the BWB.

    Diana Rigg was rather awesome as the QOT. Dialog is more or less drawn straight from GRRM as well. I’d say they got that right.

    The Joff scenes are all new and contained the power to surprise. They are consistent with the TV Joff we have come to despise. It’s all new, and so far, it’s all good, too.

    And yes, it leaves the viewer gasping for more. I am convinced that this is a show that is really intended to be binged upon. As weekly installments? Each episode just leaves the viewer less than full.

  240. The Kingslayer
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    i don’t like Vanessa Taylor’s scripts. they are the weakest in the show, but this episode is not so bad. 7/10
    i like how they introduce Ramsay! i think he will have a lot of fangirls. he was one of the most popular actor from the Misfits
    i don’t like that this guy Lock(kk?) i don’t know he’s name. ok i understand why there is no Vargo, but why this Lock no lisps? shit i wanted so much

    “kingthlayer you are my captifth”

    and

    “thapphires”

  241. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Good points, your impressions mirror my perceptions of this episode.

  242. the mighty hodor
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    Two things:

    We know Joffery is a freak, we don’t need an awkward scene that runs for two minutes too long about the sexual pleasure he gets from a crossbow.

    Okay, we have seen the reeds, lets move on.

  243. Luana
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    Man, that gang of Bolton’s men who captured the Kingslayer are GOOD. Stole Robb Stark’s horse right out from under him, and Karstark’s and Talisa’s too, if I’m not mistaken.

  244. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:54 am | Permalink

    Adria:
    is it really believable that Catelyn would show only disgust and hatred towards Jon Snow for 17 years?

    YES! She told Jon she wanted him dead instead of Bran!

    And given that she isn’t a horrible person,

    But she is! She told Jon she wanted him dead instead of Bran!

    Sorry, I strongly disagree with you on these points. I didn’t hate the Cat monologue, but I didn’t like it. It was an attempt to make her more sympathetic and understandable. I just don’t want to see her that way. I truly treasure my hatred of Catelyn Stark and I have to say I was not happy that she survived the RW. So personally, I don’t want to see a more sympathetic side of Catelyn. But it was an okay scene for the the show. They want to make the characters more gray than black-and-white. I just really don’t want to see Cat that way.

    How would she rate , say .. compared to Cersei ? All Matin’s characters are flawed
    with a balance of good and bad/ yin and yang. It’s never wise to listen to the
    threats of an emotionally distraught person, any thing could be said or done.

    I found Cat’s unreasonable attitude towards Jon, a painful and regrettable experience
    for her ( and Jon ). It masked her pain of imagined betrayal and hurt. Sad that Jon
    and Ned witnessed this, but I feel this transgression was her only flaw. Catelyn Stark
    is definitely a strong female and heroine in the books. I suppose GRRM decided to
    coat her otherwise dutiful image with a sprinkling of spite for seasoning.

  245. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    fauxkaren,

    Wow, I just read this… we’re on the same page ( perceiving Catelyn Stark’s role in
    ASOIAF.

  246. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    the mighty hodor,

    Yeah, I can’t imagine why they’d want to spend time clearly drawing our attention to a very memorable crossbow. I’m sure that won’t come up again!

  247. The DarkStar
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    Meg:

    That said, I don’t know how, in her convo with Talisa, she lept from praying for Bran/Rickon’s safety to –Jon? Was she perhaps thinking that if Jon was in Winterfell he might have been able to protect them, and she feels partly responsible for his being at the Wall (though that was not her fault, IMO). If anything, she should have shared her thoughts on her own situation CURRENTLY: her husband’s dead, her own son thinks she’s a criminal, her kids are scattered to the Wind, and Winterfell is in ruins…but instead this bad shit is happening b/c she could’t be Jon’s mommy? It doesn’t flow logically. Beautifully acted, though…

    She was explaining to Talisa about the dream catcher things and when she made them before. She only offered the backstory on why she made one for Jon when Talisa asked her “which boy”

    I liked the scene.

  248. Adria
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    The Queen’s Hand,

    She very much DID survive the RW.

  249. Luana
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Other than the magic teleporting horses, I liked most things about this episode. Except for Cat’s character assassination monologue, which was about 10 times worse than I’d expected it to be. Wow. My jaw literally dropped. What do D&D have against Catelyn, anyway? The whole Robb/Cat/Talisa storyline has been such a huge disappointment.

  250. Adria
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I can’t really ‘rate’ characters. They all have their own good and bad points. But I’ve always felt that Catelyn was a character that was never really held to task for her flaws in the books. They seem to get overlooked by herself and by those around her. She seems to think of herself as a good person though she never holds Ned accountable (or not for long) for cheating on her and takes her anger out on a blameless child. I guess Cersei is bad in a way that so many other characters see and comment on, yet Catelyn is always regarded as kind and loving and righteous.

    Someone just now reminded me that the “It should have been you” line was NOT in the show back in the first season, and now I am liking this Cat monologue even less. I always liked that the Starks were not all white knights across the board, and the Lannisters were not all villains. But now the show has edited out Catelyn’s one great flaw and tried to make her more sympathetic and I think it does a disservice to the ‘shades of gray’ that the books had.

  251. Turri
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    It just keeps getting better. So many great scenes, and things starting to come together in a natural flow. This might be the very first episode I don’t have any complaints about at all.

  252. The DarkStar
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    Luana:
    Other than the magic teleporting horses, I liked most things about this episode. Except for Cat’s character assassination monologue, which was about 10 times worse than I’d expected it to be. Wow. My jaw literally dropped. What do D&D have against Catelyn, anyway? The whole Robb/Cat/Talisa storyline has been such a huge disappointment.

    Cat was always one of my favorite characters to read. I thought Martins ability to put me in the heart and mind of a mother was incredible.

    I thought this scene did exactly that.

  253. Monstadon
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    lmfao @ Gendry mocking Arya for not using Jaquen H’gar’s kills to simply end the war. That bit in the books always drove me nuts! Props to the show for poking fun at it.

  254. idkk
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:26 am | Permalink

    Luana:
    Other than the magic teleporting horses, I liked most things about this episode. Except for Cat’s character assassination monologue, which was about 10 times worse than I’d expected it to be. Wow. My jaw literally dropped. What do D&D have against Catelyn, anyway? The whole Robb/Cat/Talisa storyline has been such a huge disappointment.

    What do they have against her? Apparently nothing, since they are clearly showing that although she may have thought about treating Jon differently….she ultimately couldn’t. She is essentially in the same place, except for the fact that she is isnt’t driven by her hate for Jon vs her love for her kids.

  255. Adria
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:35 am | Permalink

    Luana: Except for Cat’s character assassination monologue, which was about 10 times worse than I’d expected it to be. Wow. My jaw literally dropped. What do D&D have against Catelyn, anyway? The whole Robb/Cat/Talisa storyline has been such a huge disappointment.

    Have to agree with you a bit here. Really dissapointed the the show is not just down-playing Cat’s flaws, but erasing them altogether. I always liked that Cat was a character that saw herself as a loving mother and dutiful wife while at the same time being a hypocrite for excusing Ned’s (supposed) infidelity and blaming Jon. It seems like D&D want the audience to empathise more with Cat. I don’t think this will go well when we get to zombie-Cat and her obsessive hatred of all Lannisters.

  256. kelly
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:37 am | Permalink

    No she definitely dies during the RW and has her corpse chucked into the river. And is then found and brought back to life.

    I love the books for what they are and the show for what it is. The only part of Cat’s monologue that I really disliked was her saying she promised herself she would encourage Ned to legitimize Jon Snow if the baby would live after she wished it dead. That took the scene too far for me. I can see an emotional and conflicted young woman torn between hating a baby for reasons that are no fault of his own and having sympathy for a suffering motherless child. But having her say she thought to have him become a Stark was pretty heavy handed of the writer to push for a kinder softer Cat.

  257. FrYo
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    Just a question: how come Brienne and Jaime are already next to King’s Landing’s tourney field?

    Does Northern Ireland not have enough brilliant locations? ^^

  258. Drunken Fool
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:39 am | Permalink

    I really don’t understand all of the doubt that people are expressing in the comment sections. I am all for people saying what scenes they do or don’t like, even some of the speculation, but it just seems weird that people are freaking out about horrible changes that may or may not happen. I mean look at the first two seasons compared to the books (which should be noted will be the only two seasons that “follow” a book from more or less the beginning to the end), every story line starts and ends where they are “suppossed” to. Sure some characters will get pushed off like the Reeds were until this season and the Viper will be until next season, but it really doesn’t change that much. I would bet money that the people making the show know and love the books just as much as anyone posting on this website and debate, HEAVILY, every single change that is made in regards to how it will all tie in to the greater scheme of things. I think it should also be noted that D&D know how the whole thing ends so I would guess they know what the f*** they are doing. Sorry for the rant but I don’t think everyone should be stressing out about little things that haven’t happened yet or might not ever happen and instead should just enjoy the ride of seeing one of the best pieces of literature come to life before us in such an incredible manner.

    P.S. I too am not crazy about the location of Beyond the Wall. Also, I was hoping Jaime/Brienne would stop by the inn before Arya/BWOB got there to tie things together but oh well.

  259. saluk
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    the mighty hodor:
    We know Joffery is a freak, we don’t need an awkward scene that runs for two minutes too long about the sexual pleasure he gets from a crossbow.

    Wow, you completely missed the point of that scene. It’s not about Joffrey – we know him well enough – it’s about Margery learning who he is and seeing how she handles him being a freak. And she handled him splendidly.

    Not to mention some good foreshadowing. Who is going to shoot who with that crossbow later?

  260. Spryte
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    FFS, I typed out a long response and posted it and it’s not here… Is there some kind of timeout on this site?

  261. Adria
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    kelly: No she definitely dies during the RW and has her corpse chucked into the river. And is then found and brought back to life.

    In other words, she survives.

  262. Summer Is Coming
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    What a great episode! The Marg-Joff scene was indeed the best I think, followed closely by the QoT-Marg-Sansa scene. Maragery is becoming one of my favs, and that is due to her increased screentime. I mean last season she appeared in only 4 eps…
    Diana Rigg as Olenna is magnificent, and I was grinning when I heard her lines from the books! Sophie’s Sansa is becoming better and better! Her face when she said “monster”… amazing!
    no Varys this episode …again!! :(
    About Tyrion-Shae scene! I don’t understand why you people found it bad or something.. I found it one of the most hillarious in GoT history: the way Shae said “You fucked her!” had me laughing for a couple of minutes! The way Sibel Kekili delievered that line was an awesome thing! And I’m still laughing right now remembering it!
    About Cat monologue: it was amazing, heart-breaking and emotional… I found it very well acted, and I have nothing bad to say about it; and I am a book reader.
    It was good to see Alfie back, altough not in that state! I could barely watch his 2 scenes…
    The Reeds! Yes! I totally got what FaB said about Branjen, or it was Jojbran? anyway those were some awesome scenes, especially the first one with Bran’s dream when Jon and Robb are also there. For a shocking breathtaking second I thought Ned would appear also! bummer.
    Jon had one scene and it was a short one! another bummer. Rose Leslie had one line… maybe Jon’s stuff should have been kept for the next episode, but since Dany wasn’t in this one, maybe they thought they should have at least Jon. Or maybe Orell’s introduction was necessary since we have the “warg” thing in both Jon and Bran’s storylines.
    Jaime and Brienne, was good, but not my fav. Oh yeah, I realized Gwendoline Christie didn’t appear in the intro!!! And she was credited by HBO as starring! what happened??
    Joe Dempsie is in the intro though… didn’t expect that… Gendry is not only getting laid this season *ghough, Melisandre, gough*, but also some getting some increased screentime it seems! Thoros of Myr is GREAT! Good to see Paul Kaye! And the Hound is soo the Hound when he says “wolf-bitch”… Oh, and shoudn’t Arya be at least better with the sword?.. it’s like Syrio died for nothing….

  263. Meg
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    I see it as quite different. Cat in the show has internalized misogyny to the point where she feels like she has failed at a job for whom Book Cat feels she isn’t responsible.

  264. novichaso
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    ramsay is coming!

  265. Icebird
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:55 am | Permalink

    I cringed a little when I saw Vanessa Taylor was the writer for this episode, (I’m still a little bitter about the peach in S2 I guess). But this episode was almost flawless! Very well done, I’m certain now that Season 3 will be the best yet.

    I especially loved Sansa’s scene with the Tyrells. (I just read that chapter in ASoS a day or 2 ago) I wonder what it means for Sansa that they cut off the conversation before Lady Olenna suggests Sansa’s marriage to a Tyrell. I kind of thought she might outright suggest a marriage to Ser Loras and it would have been very cool to see Ser Loras able and willing to do something that Renly couldn’t. Of course that would get dashed to hell by Sansa’s forced marriage to Tyrion. I’m not bothered by the absence of Butterbumps, especially considering we’ll get “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” later in the season, the song would have been a little to distracting to the scene.

    I thought Margeary’s scene with Joffrey was interesting. Kind of like she learned something from Sansa and decided to put it to use by acting a little dark – and gaining some of his favor for whatever it’s worth. I became a lot more happy with Natalie Dormer as Margeary today.

    When Jamie and Brienne were fighting I was actually thinking it would be cool if she cut off his hand to end the fight and regain control of him. She couldn’t kill him, couldn’t let him kill her, it would have been a fantastic twist IMO. Maybe in another episode or 3 I’ll be happy with them leaving it closer to the book.

    Loved Bran’s little moment with Jon and Robb – would have been cool if they worked Arya in there too.

    I liked the scene with Cat. Well done Vanessa Taylor – a clever addition.

    A couple things I miss from the book so far… 1. The conversation Jon has when he meets Mance and Mance reveals that he traveled to Winterfell for the feast with King Robert and had seen Jon’s face before. Also with that the little anecdote about Mance visiting Winterfell as a black brother and interacting with Robb and Jon as children would have been a fantastic touch. 2. Ser Jorah’s conversation with Dany where he convinces her to go to Astapor and seek out the Unsullied. Since she got the ship after raiding the riches of Qarth they clearly couldn’t pawn off Illyrio’s trade goods for Unsullied as Jorah suggests in the book. But the historical background of the Unsullied and their battle with the Dothraki would have been great to at least here told. I hope this little bit can at least be a part of the animated “Histories and Lore” on the blu ray… Please Brian Cogman?

    Thought the episode was going to end with Sam the Slayer… Eagerly waiting for that fantastic moment.

    I understand some great stuff from the books isn’t going to show, but overall I’m very pleased with S3 so far! 5/5 for both episodes! :D

  266. spacechampion
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    From the map linked in a comment above it’s not clear, but the Fist could easily be several miles outside the Haunted Forest. Thus no trees for miles around. Still, it tonight’s episode there was a tiny bit of vegetation appearing as the Watch marched up that hill / ridge.

  267. Luana
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:01 am | Permalink

    Meg:
    I see it as quite different. Cat in the show has internalized misogyny to the point where she feels like she has failed at a job for whom Book Cat feels she isn’t responsible.

    Exactly.

  268. Jen
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:09 am | Permalink

    Forget about Cat (jk that was awful) … But seriously I just canNOT with all the Theon hate all over the Internet and even in reviews!! So much character misunderstanding going on … He was not a ward, he was a hostage. The Starks only half raised him and he is prob one of the most complex characters in the books/show. RAAAAAAGE

  269. Luana
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:12 am | Permalink

    idkk: What do they have against her? Apparently nothing, since they are clearly showing that although she may have thought about treating Jon differently….she ultimately couldn’t. She is essentially in the same place, except for the fact that she is isnt’t driven by her hate for Jon vs her love for her kids.

    Uh, except that Cat doesn’t hate Jon, nor did she mistreat him while he was growing up. (As GRRM has confirmed several times in interviews.) If the show has made you believe that Cat hates Jon, and is “driven by her hate for Jon”, then I rest my case as to the show’s character assassination of Cat.

  270. HellFell
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    Larry Williams has redeemed himself with his awesome episode 2 review.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc2z7M4-rHM

  271. King DBC
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:24 am | Permalink

    Wow, what an episode! One of the best so far. I was like a little fan girl during every second of The Queen of Thorns’ scene. Natalie Dormer’s subtle yet obvious expressions are amazing. Also, I’m pretty sure this episode had more direwolf that whole of season 2…

  272. xFire and Bloodx
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    omg everyone stop complaining about catelyns part. They’re trying to make us connect with her more before the rw, so it’ll be much more sad/shocking, especially for the non book reader i liked that part and i also like talisa more than jeyne

  273. RamsaySnow
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:35 am | Permalink

    Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaging! THEY ARE RUINING THE BOOOOOKS!

    I don’t care about Cataracter assassination, I don’t care about the second episode, as I stopped watching this disgrace after the language assassination – the linguocide D&D inflicted upon unsuspecting viewers. The slavers in Astapor don’t speak Valyrian, they speak a bastardized version of Ghiscari, but the so-called writers don’t care about ASOIAF facts, they just go around happily ruining the show and the books. So at that point I stopped watching, and they can butcher and zombify Cat as much as they want, I don’t care anymore.

    GRRM painted a vivid caleidoscope of languages, dialects and language families and the so-called writers massacred it with their simplification. Now, I’m just ignoring this farce D&D are force-feeding us with, I know Mr. Martin is working 24/7 on the next book, and I’ll rather spend my time reading TWOW which will come out this summer than watching this Shame of Thrones.

    In and out. I’m going out of my basement now and I’m going to slap my mum, that’s how angry I am.

  274. saluk
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:40 am | Permalink

    HellFell:
    Larry Williams has redeemed himself with his awesome episode 2 review.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc2z7M4-rHM

    I agree with him that this episode was better than the first. It feels like there may have been some shuffling done of scenes between the first two episodes. Like they did at some point have a longer first episode that tried to introduce everything, but then realized it was too long and had to scatter the scenes about. I loved the first episode when I watched it, but after watching the second one some of the work the episode 1 scenes do (like the orphanage scene, which I liked) seem to be accomplished a little better here and might not have needed the extra introduction.

  275. Darquemode
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:49 am | Permalink

    New vdeo that’s over 9-minutes!

    Season 3 : New Players
    http://youtu.be/SN28-TdHCbI

  276. The Rabbit
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    RamsaySnow,

    Poor mommy.

  277. Thomas
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    I’ve never been a fan of her acting skills, but man that Shae scene was terrible. I guess even Tyrion can be in a bad scene… Shae, you’re bothered about HIM screwing other girls? You’ve been a prostitute your whole life. WTH.

  278. Summer Is Coming
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:01 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Thank you Darquemode! You are the Best!

  279. obsidian
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:02 am | Permalink

    kelly,

    Very heavy handed indeed ..and soooo unlikely.If it ever comes out ( as I believe GRRM has confirmed) that Jon is Robb’s slightly elder brother. We’ll have to call her Saint Cat if she ever remotely considered asking to have him legitimized.

    I didn’t like Vanessa Taylor’s writing last year, but was hoping it might improve as she became more familiar with the material. I know she doesn’t decide all the plot twists herself. It’s not that . I often don’t like the way she handles dialogue. Too many weird modern moments pop up.

    Or just out of character , like Osha’s reaction to Bran’s dreams…and black magic ?!?

    I wish they’d kept the Reeds oath of fealty..and Bran is not the 3 eyed raven. A minor point ,but it will make things odd later on.. unless they’r going to leave out an important someone.

  280. HellFell
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    New vdeo that’s over 9-minutes!

    Season 3 : New Players
    http://youtu.be/SN28-TdHCbI

    This is so cool!

  281. Black Stannis
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:08 am | Permalink

    RamsaySnow:

    Martin is working 24/7 on the next book, and I’ll rather spend my time reading TWOW which will come out this summer than watching this Shame of Thrones.

    this summer? very very very optimistic

  282. Uncle B
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    Great episode!

    Joffrey and the Tyrell chick. Awesome! She can make any man happy.
    Catelyn scene good, too.
    Awesome Brienne fight.

    No weak points in this episode.

  283. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    really not happy with the Cat scene.

  284. Jimbo
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    REGARDING Jaime/Brienne fight:

    I said this during season 1 with Jaime/Eddard, and I say it again now…

    Book Jaime is one of the best swordman in Westeros (most likely the best duelist given his strengths). While he is a relatively powerful figure (tall and strong), his blessings are extensive SKILL and absurd SPEED.

    “High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking, moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster, faster…” / “with speed and skill…”

    You simply CANNOT appreciate Jaime’s impending loss unless you see how re-goddamn-diculous he is in a fight. Even if they had to abuse the editing, I wanted to see LIGHTNING SPEED, and hopefully some sweet maneuvers.

    I was disappointed on both counts.

    NCW was amazing in expression, but IMO the choreography was lacking when it comes to the source material. Jaime spends half his time mourning the importance of his loss. With how we have seen him fight in the series, it can only make us wonder why.

  285. Darquemode
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Summer Is Coming,

    Hmmm… 7:55?
    Melisandre and Thoros in a cave, Mel caressing some dark-haired man…. I thought it might be Beric at first. Then someone else. Then Beric XD

    Is that the opposite angle view of the scene many thought was Gendry? While it did look a lot like the back of Gendry to me, now it looks like that same scene is not Gendry at all…. Maybe. XD

    If it is Beric, the look of shock Mel gives Thoros can be explained by her being shocked that Thoros was able to bring Beric back perhaps….

  286. Summer Is Coming
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:45 am | Permalink

    Shae: She’s a whore!
    Tyrion: Yes, well, we shouldn’t be judgemental about this things.
    S: You fucked her!
    T: Oh, please… alright, yes

    (I’m still laughing! very very amuzing scene, I truly can’t understand the resentment about it)

  287. Summer Is Coming
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Someone put some pictures with Gendry’s back from S1 and 2 comparing with the scene shown in a previous video… it was him! Plus Mel is naked in front of him… why would she sleep with Beric, the decomposing man? That is sick thought… and an interesting plotline :)))))

  288. Nick_Scryer
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,
    Thanks for that video, so exciting.
    She’s touching Beric Dondarrion, he has no eye and a hanging mark around his neck. She must be learning about Thoros’ new found revival powers.

    This episode was so fantastic, I loved every scene. The weakest though was the Tyrion/Shae one. Best was any of the Jaime/Brienne or the Tyrell/Sansa meeting. Fantastic stuff all round.

  289. idkk
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:08 am | Permalink

    Luana,

    People are complaining because according to them Book-Cat would never (even for a second) think about accepting Jon, because he of what he represents and that fact is essential to her character (this is mentioned by various people upthread). All I’m saying is that the scene in question, IMO, does not diminish this fact. Although TV Cat apparently tried to change her attitude towards Jon, she ultimately couldn’t.

  290. Damien
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    In all my time persusing talkback on this show, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything more downright depressing that the backlash against the superbly acted Catelyn scene with Michelle Fairley.

    Not that everyone isn’t entitled to an opinion, but for me it sums up the often rigid, unforgiving nature of the books vs. show debate that leaves me scratching my head.

    That scene was the heartbeat of the episode the way the Tywin/Tyrion scene became the heartbeat of the last, and I personally loved it.

    First up, as an actress, Fairley doesn’t get the credit she deserves.

    Second: why in God’s name are we lamenting the decision to portray a little more dimensionality and guilt attached to a character as a BAD thing, over and above simply having her two-dimensionally despise a boy who was in no way to blame for her ill feeling?

    She talks as a mother, with the empathy of a mother, and extends that to the knowledge of Jon being a “motherless child”.

    Cat IS strong and a survivor, yes, but here she is emotional and especially vulnerable because of the recent news about her father and missing boys.

    Where is the mystery or “character assassination” in that?

    It wasn’t even a full embrace of Jon Snow in any case: more, her being honest with herself as to the reasons why she couldn’t (and can’t) accept him as her own.

    Character assassination? Are you kidding?! If the purists had their way we wouldn’t have had that sit down between Robert and Cerseiin S1 or his confession re: Lyanna that “seven kingdoms couldn’t full the hole she left behind.” – my favourite GoT addition, emotionally speaking, which wasn’t in the book.

    Much like it, NOTHING about that Cat scene was incongruous. EVERYTHING about it was subtle, beautifully handled and ADDED to the character, from the scoring to the dialogue and above all, the performance.

    It pains me, it really does, that Michelle might now get some sense via the ‘net of that scene not being received well. And that sucks for an actress who doesn’t get talked about enough in relation to the acting strengths of this show in comparison to, say, Dinklage and Headey and the like.

    I think she should be. I hope that after S0309 she will be.

    So please just stop it, and give her the credit she deserves.

    (*Bangs own head against the wall.*)

  291. The Greatjon
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    Thomas:
    I’ve never been a fan of her acting skills, but man that Shae scene was terrible. I guess even Tyrion can be in a bad scene… Shae, you’re bothered about HIM screwing other girls? You’ve been a prostitute your whole life. WTH.

    I don’t want to sound like a dick, but I think some of you were completely missing the tone of that scene. Shae was playfully teasing and nagging at Tyrion. She was not genuinely upset that he slept with Ros, nor was she genuinely upset that he finds Sansa attractive. Giving Tyrion a hard time is simply how she flirts with him, and likewise, he enjoys her challenging attitude. This is a dynamic that has been established between them in basically every scene they are together in.

  292. Darquemode
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer,

    Yea it is definitely Beric. I decided to tweak a screencap.
    http://oi48.tinypic.com/ix7cbm.jpg

    Just two different scenes I guess, but seems like she is the BWoB cave a lot. XD
    It will be interesting to see how that goes down.

  293. Shady_Grady
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    I’m not a huge Catelyn fan but I really don’t like how the writers have shaped her character this season. I think the actress is great. I just worry that some viewers might lack in sympathy for the chracter. I also thought that Karstark’s statement about Robb’s marriage was slightly heavy handed.

    But other than that I liked the episode and especially the introduction of the Reeds. And the changes to make Margaery more active and aware I enjoyed.

    http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2013/04/hbo-game-of-thrones-recap-dark-wings.html

  294. kelly
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    In my opinion the problem with Shae and Tyrion’s scene isn’t the acting, it is in the inconsistent way the writers portray Shae. They seem to bounce back and forth between portraying her as savvy, fearless and practical and then have her be petty and needy in the next scene. I just don’t buy that a woman who seems very realistic about the way the world works would be upset that a man would recognize that Sansa is beautiful.

    That said, I agree with previous posters that this scene may be setting the stage for a shift in her character once Tyrion marries Sansa. I don’t think it will be so much that she views Sansa as a viable rival for Tyrion intimately (at first) but that his forced marriage will make her confront how little power Tyrion truly has. At this point I don’t think she takes seriously how precarious her position is. Tyrion being forced to marry will make her confront the reality of her circumstances and ultimately lead to her looking out for herself first and betraying him during the trial.

  295. Rafael
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    Summer Is Coming,

    Finally someone who loved Trion scene as well :)

  296. kvothe
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    Robin,

    me too….

  297. sunspear
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Two things I didn’t like:

    The Jaime and Brienne fight was too short. Not just because I love to see fighting, but it felt like Jaime got tired too fast, even being weakened by prison.

    Arya shouldn’t have gotten disarmed that easily.

    Everything else was gold.

  298. Mike Chair
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    RamsaySnow: I know Mr. Martin is working 24/7 on the next book, and I’ll rather spend my time reading TWOW which will come out this summer …

    HA! I could build a life-sized replica of The Eyrie out of Skittles before TWoW is done.

    RamsaySnow: …they just go around happily ruining the show and the books.

    You have the right to your opinion about the show. But, I checked the books after last night’s episode. They haven’t changed. The “they’re ruining the books” argument was waged and lost two years ago.

  299. Rafael
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    Mockquote cite=”comment-274314″>

    RamsaySnow:
    Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaging! THEY ARE RUINING THE BOOOOOKS!

    I don’t care about Cataracter assassination, I don’t care about the second episode, as I stopped watching this disgrace after the language assassination – the linguocide D&D inflicted upon unsuspecting viewers. The slavers in Astapor don’t speak Valyrian, they speak a bastardized version of Ghiscari, but the so-called writers don’t care about ASOIAF facts, they just go around happily ruining the show and the books. So at that point I stopped watching, and they can butcher and zombify Cat as much as they want, I don’t care anymore.

    GRRM painted a vivid caleidoscope of languages, dialects and language families and the so-called writers massacred it with their simplification. Now, I’m just ignoring this farce D&D are force-feeding us with, I know Mr. Martin is working 24/7 on the next book, and I’ll rather spend my time reading TWOW which will come out this summer than watching this Shame of Thrones.

    In and out. I’m going out of my basement now and I’m going to slap my mum, that’s how angry I am.

    Nice trolling :D

  300. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    this episode wasnt as good as the premiere, it was bit slow, with not much plot developments, especially toward the middle. On the bright side, it wasnt too bad either, it was certainly better than the 2nd episode of season 2, and i reckon that, given things seem to accelarate after the first couple of episodes, this will be the worst one of the season, so it wasnt too bad for that if it was. I liked the beginning and the end too, especially with the introduction of some new awesome characters like queen of thorns, thoros, jojen and ramsay, and the sword fight was pretty awesome. I’d heard about the catelyn scene beforehand in another review, and it was better than i though it would be, and i agree that she would certainly feel a bit of compassion if a child was dying, especially if she felt that it was her own fault, though i’m not sure she would have gone to such great lengths as she describes, so i didnt mind the scene that much. Overall, a good episode, but by GoT standards probably below average

  301. Joan Català
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    I think the Cat Monologue was good, not great, and essentially pointless. That screentime could’ve been given a better use, for example the Reeds, which in my opinion were introduced in a rushed manner. Warging and greensight are important aspects of the series, and in my opinion more exposition was needed there.

    Also, after seeing the Tyrion/Shae scene, I have this theory forming in my mind about how Shae will become very jealous of Sansa (and angry at Tyrion) when they are married. And this would eventually develop into her testifying against him in the S4 trial.

    EDIT: Loving the direwolves! I think we may have had as many direwolf sightings these two episodes as the whole Season 2.

  302. Thomas
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    The Greatjon: I don’t want to sound like a dick, but I think some of you were completely missing the tone of that scene.Shae was playfully teasing and nagging at Tyrion.She was not genuinely upset that he slept with Ros, nor was she genuinely upset that he finds Sansa attractive.Giving Tyrion a hard time is simply how she flirts with him, and likewise, he enjoys her challenging attitude.This is a dynamic that has been established between them in basically every scene they are together in.

    See, this is what I thought at first… and then the teasing went on so long, and Tyrion seemed to take it so seriously that I thought she was being serious. Her awful acting does not help.

    (You’re welcome to disagree, but the sheer number who seem to think Shae was being at least semi-seriously upset, argue otherwise)

  303. JamesL
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    It is Gendry. It is obvious that they are going to replace Edric with Gendry and I love this change. I love Joe Dempsie as Gendry and am happy he doesn’t have to vanish form the show midway through the season.

  304. magnuskn
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    I am very saddened that we couldn’t have Butterbumps sing The Bear and the Maiden Fair. :(

    Otherwise, very good episode. I thought Lady Olennas quips could have been delivered with a bit more verve and that the swordfight at the end lacked a bit in comparison to the excellent Ned/Jaime fight in season one, but otherwise very good on all fronts.

  305. OhManymous
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    I think the BoB was the dude who said he would help Theon escape. I’m sure we’ll find out next week. :)

  306. JamesL
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Yes! I see Jon Snow in a forest. So I guess Jon won’t spend all his time looking like he is at some ski resort while he is beyond the Wall.

  307. zod
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    RamsaySnow,

    I know you’re trolling… but what you’re saying isn’t even true.

    From David J. Peterson:

    This season we get to see the one language that fans of the book series actually wanted to see: High Valyrian.

    But not yet.

    In fact, the only High Valyrian in the premiere was the title (a call back to the title of last year’s finale). The language spoken in the scene with Daenerys, Kraznys and Missandei is a descendant of High Valyrian which I call various things: Astapori Valyrian, Ghiscari Valyrian, Low Valyrian, Valyrian…

    ;-)

  308. WhoIsJacopoBelbo
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    “It’s a shame the throne isn’t made out of cocks, they’d have never got him off it.”

    “Ai, we left you. You’re fat and you’re slow, we didn’t want to die”

    definite quote of the season contenders.

  309. David The Grey
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Previously I had wondered if they were going to remove Winterfell from the opening credits for a while (once Bran & Co. left). But it was still there. I guess it’s because they’re in the general area still – similar to Jon & Sam being way up north of the wall, but yet they’re still showing the Wall in the opening credits.

  310. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    Loved the episode. You know what I love most about Thrones? It’s the really small moments that capture the spirit of high fantasy. And by high fantasy I mean The Well at World’s End, The King of Elfland’s Daughter, the Faerie Queen, all that old-timey fantasy stuff.

    Like the Knights of the Vale riding down that mountain pass in season one with Ser Vardis at the front, banners flapping in the breeze and the sunlight gleaming off their plate mail. It’s that wide shot of Theon and Asha riding to Pike with the sea in the background and the music soaring. It’s that moment in this episode where Jojen Reed appears out of the woods and calms Summer with his words. You know you are not in the world we know.

    And that last scene with the sigil of the Flayed Man being borne by those grim soldiers.

    Now, THAT is fantasy!

    And the sword fights are fun, too.

  311. carryboo
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Loved this episode……best bits for me were the arrival of the Reeds, the start of the Arya/Hound storyline, I cheered when the Hound arrived, and Brienne taking on Jaime so deftly…….I could sense his surprise and growing respect of her.

  312. Mike Chair
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    HellFell: Larry Williams has redeemed himself with his awesome episode 2 review.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc2z7M4-rHM

    Agreed.

    Larry: “Margaery is a fucking mastermind at this shit.”

  313. David The Grey
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    kelly: I just don’t buy that a woman who seems very realistic about the way the world works would be upset that a man would recognize that Sansa is beautiful.

    I took it as a bit of play-fighting. Acting jealous to watch Tyrion squirm. If she had been truly upset, she wouldn’t have been so cuddly, so quickly. I am interested how it’s going to turn out.

  314. Blaat
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    When I read that the episode was considered a slow one, I feared for the worst. After watching it, this one is definitely in my top 10 of best GoT episodes. I didn’t feel bored for a second and was fascinated by some of the new actors breathing life into Thoros, Olenna and the Reeds. Topped off by a fantastic fight and the introduction of the Vargo replacement I was pleasantly suprised, since most reviewers rated the next two episodes as even better! curious to see what they’re going to do with Ramsay. Glad they kept some of the mindfucking. Those scenes are appropriately horrendous and mysterious. Great that they leave the viewers in the dark with Robb’s comment that even he doesn’t know what happened there.

  315. WhoIsJacopoBelbo
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    WhoIsJacopoBelbo:
    “It’s a shame the throne isn’t made out of cocks, they’d have never got him off it.”

    “Ai, we left you. You’re fat and you’re slow, we didn’t want to die”

    definite quote of the season contenders.

    and a couple more:

    “Half the country’s starving and look at this one.”
    “Maybe he’s the reason half the country’s starving.”

    “Is there an idiot in any village who trusts Littlefinger?”

  316. Darquemode
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    David The Grey,

    I think Winterfell will be our tuchstone and shown in the credits each season.
    They will flash to it each season since it is where the story began and the Starks of Winterfell are vy much at the center of what is happening throughout Westeos.

  317. Nick_Scryer
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    I’ve watched this episode about 4 times now and I still get a chuckle out of the lines most people are posting above, but one that I haven’t seen quoted yet it the QOT’s “As to your FATHEAD father” along with Margaery’s little laugh, brilliant. Just brilliant.

  318. Darquemode
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer,

    Ha! XD
    I loved that line, as well as so many others.

    Fathead father…. hmmm… Sounds like Angus Macfadyen to me!
    Dude has a huge pumpkin head!

    I wonder what surprise castings we will get towards the end of the season…

    Also, I wonder if they will recast Ilyn Payne.?
    The “humorless mute” comment last night made me think they were settng up the book scenes between Jaime and Payne. Maybe less setting up and more paying homage to the books?

  319. Johnny3toes
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:25 am | Permalink
  320. David The Grey
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    That does make sense. As I thought more about how I would feel watching a credit sequence without Winterfell, I realized that it might be slightly traumatic for it not to be there. The smoking Winterfell certainly had an emotional impact on me, I would feel bereft if it wasn’t there at all. Interesting how a credit sequence can actually impart such emotions, almost like a character unto itself. Or I’m wayyy too sensitive.

  321. Johnny3toes
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Sorry for the blank posts, trying like hell to get spoiler tags to work on iPhone. Lets try one more time. Well I guess I am stupid or iPhone is broke. Anyone willing to give me a pointer on how to get my spoiler tags using iPhone? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

  322. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Thomas: See, this is what I thought at first… and then the teasing went on so long, and Tyrion seemed to take it so seriously that I thought she was being serious. Her awful acting does not help.

    (You’re welcome to disagree, but the sheer number who seem to think Shae was being at least semi-seriously upset, argue otherwise)

    Hahaha, the same happened to me.
    At first I thought “Oh, oh…watch out Tyrion, she’s angry”, but then she started with the stupid “Oh I’m a silly whore” number and I cringed.
    Horrible scene.

  323. Alen
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    This was a beast of an episode! I loved it better than the premiere (even though I liked the first episode really much). There was so much great stuff. The scene with Sansa, Margaery and the Queen of Thorns was pure gold. Jaime and Brienne… just wow! I love their banter. And the sword fight was so freaking amazing! The Reeds were so damn awesome, the actors are brilliant. And I’m glad we’re getting more and more into the fantasy territory. The scene with Joff and Margaery was also awesome. I love to watch her play him. She’s a real political animal.
    Can’t wait for next week!

  324. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    ebevan91,

    Wrong. The most hated character title is going to belong to Walder Frey and possibly Roose Bolton if they make his role clear.

  325. Anne
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    David The Grey:
    Darquemode,

    That does make sense.As I thought more about how I would feel watching a credit sequence without Winterfell, I realized that it might be slightly traumatic for it not to be there.The smoking Winterfell certainly had an emotional impact on me, I would feel bereft if it wasn’t there at all.Interesting how a credit sequence can actually impart such emotions, almost like a character unto itself.Or I’m wayyy too sensitive.

    if you’re way too sensitive, then I am also. because that burning Winterfell makes me emotional each time I see also! I think I would probably be devastated if it disappeared altogether though. But I think they will keep it, as long as the Starks are still in the game. I just wonder how long it will burn, because really, I cry a little every week!

    one thing I did notice was they went to Dragonstone last night in the credits, but we didn’t go there in the actual show.

  326. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    saluk,

    Hear hear. Her interest in Sansa’s input isn’t whether Joff’s a good person or not. She wants to know what kind of wife she will have to be in order to be his queen.

  327. Maxwell James
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    I’ll have to disagree with you there – I think Kekilli is a good actress, and she’s been fine in all her scenes with Sophie Turner, for instance.

    Actually, to court controversy I’ll say that I think the scene exposes the rare weakness in Dinklage’s performance – he simply doesn’t seem very comfortable portraying Tyrion’s needier, more emotionally raw side, especially when it comes to women. That could be a problem when it comes to certain critical scenes in the future.

    That said, I’d lay most of the fault on a) the scripting and b) the direction. They’ve had some very good scenes together, especially in “Blackwater” and “Valar Morghulis.” This just wasn’t one of them.

  328. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer,

    Incredible performances this season, and much easier to appreciate with the improved writing and cinematography. The scenes have such an organic flow to them. This was one of my unvoiced complaints about past seasons.

  329. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I’m inclined to disagree. I found this to be one of their stronger scenes together, a much more dynamic exchange.

    And Tyrion’s neediness does seem to be downplayed rather than portrayed poorly. His relationship with Shae is drastically different from the book version, which bothered me at first before it blossomed into its own beast in the show. I still didn’t buy it last season after wondering what the show was trying to pull, but their scene this week confirms who Shae is, and thus reflects upon Tyrion’s part in their pairing as well. There is more parity in this version, with her being more than a one-trick manipulator and him being more than the merely manipulated.

  330. The Winter Rose
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    I am really loving this season so far. The episode went so quickly for me. When the credits came up I was in shocked. The hour flew by for me. Really happy with episode 1 and 2 so far this season. I think Olenna Tyrell was the standout for me this episode – she was perfect! I loved that scene so much.

  331. jasonw
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    i lked the cat scene, i felt it took the place of the “it should have been you” line from book 1. I think it gives her more reason to hate jon, since now when she sees him she not only sees ned’s infidelity but her own faults.

    In the books she HATED jon, wished his death. this scence just gives the readers a chance to ask if these horrible things she wished on a child were to happen what she would do

  332. Visenya
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    The Cat hate from this fandom is embarrassing and D&D’s treatment of the character only makes it worse. She was my favorite character in the books but what they have on the show isn’t just an altered character, it’s one that’s completely unrecognizable from the politically savvy woman we see in the books.
    Cat is in no way defined by her relationship with Jon. She rarely thinks about him and he rarely thinks about her. People who say she abused him are radically misinterpreting the story. Actual abuse victims (see Tyrion, Samwell) think about their abusers frequently. Jon does not have this attitude towards Catelyn at all.
    Also why would Cat consider her (minimal) contact with Jon as the cause of the war? That makes absolutely zero sense.

  333. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Skipjack,

    I hope you’re wrong, but I’m afraid you’re right. Tyrion killing Tywin because Tywin killed Shae is completely different from Tyrion killing Tywin because of what Twyin did to Tysha. And that makes me afraid they are dropping the Tysha storyline altogether, which makes me afraid George does, too. And that would break my heart.

  334. jasonw
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Yellow Dog,

    how can george drop it, that was the whole plot of tyrion in book 5 “where do whores go?”

  335. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Icebird,

    I take issue with your wish. >:]

    Jaime losing his hand is as much a political move as it is an act of cruelty. Crippling Jaime stops well short of turning over his corpse, but significantly affects his value as an agent of his family. It wouldn’t make sense to give that task to Brienne for either reason, as she has no political ties to motivate her (her service to Catelyn is a matter of duty, not fealty) and she is not cruel by nature. She is honor-bound to deliver him to the Lannisters unharmed and whole, an intact specimen in exchange for the intact Stark children. Anything short of that would have blemished any possible deal, defeating Brienne’s purpose.

  336. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    jasonw,

    I found the Tyrion-Shae dynamic to be incredibly effective in the books, but that Shae is a relatively flat character, a device to highlight Tyrion’s running weakness and lingering adolescence. Shae would be the way Ros-haters see that character, a one-note sex object.

    They mentioned Tysha, but I don’t see them making her a major motivation in and of herself, but more of one tragedy in a history of them experienced by Tyrion. It’s not like there’s any way to actually see her in a show with no flashbacks, so some of her weight has been given to the new Shae. Tysha would be a case of out-of-sight-out-of-mind. The only way to make her more central to Tyrion’s development on the show would be flashbacks or multiple scenes of him talking about her, and that’s neither in the cards nor optimal in a visual medium.

    Yellow Dog,

    Considering its length, ADWD doesn’t have much going on in his storyline anyway. I feel AFFC and ADWD are the most ripe for a liberal adaptation to the screen. I left them feeling the two books decision was overkill and overlong for how much ground the plot actually covered.

  337. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: I enjoyed it. I find myself especially enjoying new scenes. I’m a faithful book reader and have read and listened to these books many times over. I know the story ridiculously well. While seeing A Storm of Swords on my screen is a GRRM junkie’s dream come true, what I miss about reading the books every time I revisit is that as wonderful and as subtle as they can be, in the main, they have now lost their ability to surprise me. You can only read or listen to something for the first time, once.These new scenes can bring that sense of wonder back to a hardcore fan. That’s a real gift folks. As long as these new imagined scenes fit the story, and it has the power to surprise us (in a good way)? We should be on our knees being thankful for it — not complaining.

    Precisely. I re-read all five books in March for this very reason – so I could revel in the new stuff without wondering if I were just remembering the books wrong.

  338. coronaking
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Not that I see a user called “Yellow Dog” – are there any information on Lemoncloak? I really liked him in the books. Is there a confirmed actor or has he been cut from the brotherhood?

  339. Matt
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Michel,

    great to see another Kevan Lannister fan! yeah he becomes so important later on especially when Varys kills him because he is doing TOO good a job correcting Cersei’s F-ups

    also, correct me if I’m wrong, but this is also when we learn that Varys knows about a certain Prince who was Promised and that he is a supporter of his.

  340. darrylzero
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Miss,

    I’m a little late to this debate, but I just want to support your line of critique. It’s secondary as a problem, for me anyway, to excising her sense of the danger and pointlessness of Robb’s war, but that may just be because of my personal priorities/baggage. Either way, I think you’ve really hit on one of the things that’s uncomfortable about the adaptation.

    That said, I think probably show-Cat works fine as a TV character — that if the scripts were the only text, I’m not sure I would see any problem. So, it’s only as an adaptation of Catelyn the ASOIAF character that I think it’s a pretty spectacular failure. As a general indication of what things Benioff and Weiss think are important to preserve and what things they feel like they can alter to help the show work, it’s troubling but inconclusive for me. I could imagine that they’re thinking down the line about Cat’s objection to naming Jon as Robb’s heir. They haven’t had any time to discuss the whole Blackfyre thing at all yet, so is this part of their attempt to create a coherent narrative thread that will put that decision in an appropriate context? I have no idea, but I’m going to wait until this season is done to pass final judgment on what they’re up to here.

  341. Mark
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    While I thought this episode was much better than the last one on the whole, I did not like the Catelyn scene at all. While it was well acted, it was also completely unnecessary and can only serve to be confusing when it comes to the discussion of Robb’s letter and Catelyn’s reaction. It didn’t do anything to move any characters forward. It was just an excuse to give Cat a story to tell, which is all well and good, but there’s no reason to put something like that at odds with the source material unless it’s going to pay off in some way later (which, I guess maybe it will, but I don’t see how).

    I also don’t think it was all that believeable. I found her chilly behavior towards Jon and almost overt attempts not to acknowledge or think about him more believable. It wasn’t that a good person was hating someone in the books, it was that she had no idea how to cope with the fact that her husband, a man she wasn’t even supposed to marry but grew to love anyway for his sense of honor and morality, slept with another woman and had a child, and that his sense of honor forced him to keep the child, even though it couldn’t keep him from sleeping with another woman. She dealt with this by doing everything she could to wilfully not acknowledge Jon as a part of the Stark family, even though all the other members of the family treated him as such.

    For her to claim to have suddenly felt a deep sympathy for Jon, and then just reject it immediately afterwards doesn’t make sense. And it doesn’t jive with what’s going to happen later with the letter. We don’t yet know the importance of the letter, but assuming it is significant, this could create some problems down the road.

    I’d have much preferred some scene that more directly set up the idea that whatsernotjeyne was trying to get pregnant but hadn’t yet. Could have easily given Cat a compelling monologue about that which was less in contradiction to other things her character has done and will (likely) do.

    On the other hand, I very much enjoyed the different direction they’re going in with Ramsay. That seems very much in the spirit of the character and a great way to slide Theon into season three while maintaining the authenticity of spirit for each character.

    I was lukewarm on the way they introduced the Reeds, I would have preferred they did it last season, but I don’t have any major objections.

  342. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Jen: Forget about Cat (jk that was awful) … But seriously I just canNOT with all the Theon hate all over the Internet and even in reviews!! So much character misunderstanding going on … He was not a ward, he was a hostage. The Starks only half raised him and he is prob one of the most complex characters in the books/show. RAAAAAAGE

    Interesting. I can’t deal with all the Theon apologists and sympathizers, even though GRRM seems to be their leader. :-)

  343. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Well, no Bran is not the 3 eyed raven, I think Jojen is more trying to say the 3 eyed raven represents Bran and what his powers could be, so I don’t have a problem with him saying that, though I thought that they went a little heavy handed with how Jojen talks about seeing Neds death, the Rebellion, etc. as if he could just watch all of this through the TV, greenseeing is a little more more complicated than that, its not as clear cut as Jojen is making it out to be, but I guess thats just to make it more understandable to the viewer. So all in all I liked it.

    I had absolutely zero problem with cats dialogue, I actually loved it. One of the few things that bothered me about GRRM’s Cat was her hate for Jon IMO was a little beneath her. She’s suppose to be a “good” women/mother for the most part, yet she holds this ridiculous grudge with a boy who did nothing wrong but be born, I always thought Cat had/should have had a little more substance than to just blindly hate a poor child. Sure most people would be hurt by his presence and always carry that scare, but most people would focus that scorn more towards the father than the child, so I always hated that “it should have been you” crap that came from Cat, I just always thought of her as a better person than that, and is realistic enough to understand that Jon Snow was always blameless.

    So yeah I understand book Cat to kind of always have a sour taste in her mouth whenever she saw Jon Snow, especially the way he was suppose to look more like Ned than her own children. But to just absolutely despise the poor kid his entire childhood to me is something a person with less substance/class than I assumed Cat had. So I actually love how they gave her that dialogue, explaining that she knew it was wrong to hate a child who really did nothing wrong, but just couldn’t help herself.

    I usually am a fan of the changes they make to the show, or at least understanding, given how deep the book is. I get more annoyed at the little things they leave out that they could easily have left in the show, for example Robb’s crown, he’s suppose to be King in the North where the F is his crown? he has one in the book, to me thats one I just don’t understand, and would it have killed them to make Tormund say “HAR!” just one time??? lol, those are my little pet peeves that can annoy me a little, but for the most part they are pretty good with the changes they make.

  344. darrylzero
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Jen,

    Preach! I like to compare Theon to Namond from The Wire, that (Wire spoilers, sort of) Namond is the optimist’s Theon and Theon is the pessimist’s Namond. Imagine if Wee-bey had broken out of jail and started waging war against Bunny Colvin for putting him there and turning his son soft! What is Namond supposed to do then?

    Anyway, no doubt Theon is an unpleasant person who makes bad decisions and does terrible things, but it’s the reason he’s that way that’s interesting. He’s totally stuck between two worlds, damaged both by the cruelty of his birth family and culture and the ugliness of Westerosi feudalism (even when moderated by a noble captor like Ned). He’s a perfect illustration of how some of the worst aspects of both societies (those of the Iron Islands and mainland Westeros), at least some of the worst they do to men short of physical violence. (Short of such violence until he meets a certain bastard, that is).

  345. John W
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    I was very surprised and disappointed that they truncated so many wonderful and important scenes from the book in order to make room for made up scenes with characters that didn’t even appear in the book. Did we really need to spend so much time with Theon?

    Given that they have two seasons set aside for SoS I don’t understand why they’re doing that.

  346. Jared
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Every second of the Jaime and Brienne material was gold. Jaime’s relentless needling of her provided at least three nominees for the best line of the season (though if anything beats ‘throne of cocks’ for sheer demented amusement, I’ll be stunned). The duel between them was extremely well-choreographed. For my own entertainment I wish it could have gone on longer, but it got the point across perfectly.

    Side note: I was extremely surprised that Gwendoline Christie’s name did NOT appear in the opening credits, given her prominence this year (she’ll most likely appear in every episode that Jaime does, and NCW has been bumped up to second billing after only Peter Dinklage). On the other hand, Joe Dempsie (Gendry) DOES appear in the opening credits As is it hadn’t been strongly hinted at enough from the various trailers, I think this decision effectively confirms that Gendry will be taking Edric Storm’s place in the Dragonstone arc for the season.

    Maisie Williams continues to be the best. My high hopes for Arya’s arc this year are sky high (and I think it’s a wise change to bring the Hound into the arc earlier than they did in the books).

    The Queen of Thorns lives. I could praise Dame Diana Rigg to the skies for bringing this character to life, but then we’d be here all day.

    The scene with Joffery and Margaery might be my favorite of the season so far. Joffrey may be a purely twisted SOB, but that doesn’t mean Jack Gleeson isn’t giving a layered performance. He sold the king’s mixture of simmering insecurity, cautious intrigue and bloodthirsty excitement perfectly. And if Natalie Dormer keeps this up, she would score an Emmy nomination in a just world (sadly, I doubt that Game of Thrones will get any awards recognition for its actors besides its usual nomination for the great Peter Dinklage).

    Speaking of Dinklage, while I wasn’t sure his scene with Shae was entirely necessary (if Tyrion was ever going to take an episode off this season, this might have been the one) but it did give us a pretty clear indicator that Shae’s jealously will be a significant plot point going forward While it may or may not influence her decision to betray him next season (if that plot point is kept), I think that this scene is strongly suggests we’ll be getting some considerable angst and the opening of a pretty severe rift between the two after Tyrion marries Sansa

    Finally, I know that some people were extremely worried about how Catelyn’s monologue about Jon would be handled. I’m sure that most of the ardent purists will hate it (if there isn’t a blown brain vessel or six over at Westeros.org right now, I’ll be stunned). But speaking for myself, I thought it was well-handled and consistent with the somewhat softer version of Catelyn that the show has provided. And Michelle Fairley sold the hell out of it.

    Overall, I think I might have liked this episode slightly more than the premiere – and I loved the premiere. It’s shaping up to be a very worthy season.

  347. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    jasonw,

    Should have been clearer – I meant I fear George not taking it any further in TWOW, as in Tyrion possibly finding Tysha or at least learning what happened to her.

  348. Kasie Strickland
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Matt,

    The Tyrion/Shae scene bothered me as well, she seemed… catty. Bitchy? Whiney? I can’t seem to come up with the right adjective. But I suppose they need to start writing her character a little different if they want to have Tyrion’s future actions seem justified.

  349. Ben Watson
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    RamsaySnow:
    Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaging! THEY ARE RUINING THE BOOOOOKS!

    I don’t care about Cataracter assassination, I don’t care about the second episode, as I stopped watching this disgrace after the language assassination – the linguocide D&D inflicted upon unsuspecting viewers. The slavers in Astapor don’t speak Valyrian, they speak a bastardized version of Ghiscari, but the so-called writers don’t care about ASOIAF facts, they just go around happily ruining the show and the books. So at that point I stopped watching, and they can butcher and zombify Cat as much as they want, I don’t care anymore.

    GRRM painted a vivid caleidoscope of languages, dialects and language families and the so-called writers massacred it with their simplification. Now, I’m just ignoring this farce D&D are force-feeding us with, I know Mr. Martin is working 24/7 on the next book, and I’ll rather spend my time reading TWOW which will come out this summer than watching this Shame of Thrones.

    In and out. I’m going out of my basement now and I’m going to slap my mum, that’s how angry I am.

    Slap her with a piece of pizza.

  350. Quowala
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    For those wondering;
    ‘Boy’ said to Theon that he had been sent by Yara
    And Robb mentioned that he had left Roose Bolton in charge at Harrenhal.

    I agree that the season would benefit from a double length opener that way we could get caught up with all the main characters in one sitting. With it as it is its taking the first 2 weeks to set up all the characters storylines which kind of feels like it lacks momentum however I’m sure it will build in coming weeks.

    I thought the introductions of Lady Olenna, Thoros of Myr and the Reeds was fantastic. Instantly compelling additions all fantastically played.

    Catching up with Theon was good although he was just screaming really. Haven’t seen enough of Iwan Rheon as “boy” yet to judge…

    Mackenzie Crook! Second person from the original office to be in thrones.

    Agree that the Tyrion/ Shae scene didn’t really work – just seemed a bit pointless and domestic compared to the rest of the scenes that bubbled with tension.

    Catching up with Arya was great and Maise Williams still seems well on her way to becoming an oscar-winner one day

    The best scenes though were Jaime and Brienne. The fight was little weak but the dialogue more than made up for it. Also I now agree 100% with the shows decision to leave out the Brave Companion and Vargo Hoat. It would just be too much with them aswell. With their whole uncertain alliance etc etc. Having Bolton men just streamlines the story and makes it make much more sense as to why they go to Harrenhal. Because Roose Bolton is there and they are Bolton men so they take him to their Lord. Also Roose’s line in the first ep that he “has his best hunters after them” gives it purpose rather than just a band of random douche bags chancing upon Jaime and Brienne after a noisy fight.

  351. Ben Watson
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    I wonder how folks would feel about a season made up of five 2-hour episodes. Or seven-ish hour and a half eps. ?

  352. A-Gone
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Will the ratings be revealed tonight ?

  353. Anne
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    I keep thinking about the Catelyn scene, and everyone keeps saying that they’re trying to make us more sympathetic to her when a certain something happens…but to me it seems like the opposite..that they’re trying to make us NOT like her for her treatment of Jon.

    I was perfectly sympathetic for Book Cat, but this Show Cat I am not liking too much.

    I think that I’d rather of not had the scene at all…and spent more time explaining the Reeds or something. I liked SOME of their introduction, but I too feel it was a bit rushed. I feel like they should have at least knelt and pledged their fealty in some way to their liege lord, along with explaining WHY they were there.

  354. epeli
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    why there is no Gwendoline Christie in open credit?

  355. A-Gone
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Quowala,

    Who is the other person from The Office that is in Thrones ?

  356. Soliwo
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    I agree, at the start.

  357. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Ward or Hostage, he has his own family to blame for that, not the Starks. And ward or hostage, Winterfell was more his home than Pyke ever was, and the Stark were the only family he ever knew.

    As he said in Dance with Dragons, remembering his real brothers before they died, that Robb was more a brother to him than his own real brothers EVER were, and he repaid that by destroying Robbs home and making him think his brothers were dead, THATS why where the Theon hate comes from. Theon himself admits this, that Robb was the only family he ever had, and that he should have been with him and died with him at the RW remember things could have been alot worse for him if he was wardened off to another family other than the Starks, hell Cat treated him more like a son then she ever did Jon Snow. So no I don’t buy all that “I was a hostage” crap, that was just his excuse for doing what he did, the real reason was to impress his father and family, who he should have had more scorn for than the Starks.

    Jen:
    Forget about Cat (jk that was awful) … But seriously I just canNOT with all the Theon hate all over the Internet and even in reviews!! So much character misunderstanding going on … He was not a ward, he was a hostage. The Starks only half raised him and he is prob one of the most complex characters in the books/show. RAAAAAAGE

  358. CatSnow13
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Tyrion and Shae’s scene was almost unbearable. The fact that Shae can be killed at any point if her involvement with Tyrion is discovered made that whole scene to me unbelievable. After everything she has witnessed in Kings Landing should be enough for her to be more cautious, but she seems to willingly ignore those imminent threats and rather invest emotions on pointless jealousy. The bickering back and forth between them was so generic, I believe the writers could have done such a better job portraying their relationship and the toll that the surrounding circumstances is taking on their relationship, but when Tyrion said “I only have eyes for you” I knew we had a reached a point of no return for those two.

  359. Eric
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Robin,
    Jamie has been locked up for a while. He’s probably has a bunch of bed sores and is probably not in the best physical shape after being locked up for months. She was toying with him.

  360. Alan
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Damien:
    In all my time persusing talkback on this show, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything more downright depressing that the backlash against the superbly acted Catelyn scene with Michelle Fairley.

    Not that everyone isn’t entitled to an opinion, but for me it sums up the often rigid, unforgiving nature of the books vs. show debate that leaves me scratching my head.

    That scene was the heartbeat of the episode the way the Tywin/Tyrion scene became the heartbeat of the last, and I personally loved it.

    First up, as an actress, Fairley doesn’t get the credit she deserves.

    Second: why in God’s name are we lamenting the decision to portray a little more dimensionality and guilt attached to a character as a BAD thing, over and above simply having her two-dimensionally despise a boy who was in no way to blame for her ill feeling?

    She talks as a mother, with the empathy of a mother, and extends that to the knowledge of Jon being a “motherless child”.

    Cat IS strong and a survivor, yes, but here she is emotional and especially vulnerable because of the recent news about her father and missing boys.

    Where is the mystery or “character assassination” in that?

    It wasn’t even a full embrace of Jon Snow in any case: more, her being honest with herself as to the reasons why she couldn’t (and can’t) accept him as her own.

    Character assassination? Are you kidding?! If the purists had their way we wouldn’t have had that sit down between Robert and Cerseiin S1 or his confession re: Lyanna that “seven kingdoms couldn’t full the hole she left behind.” – my favourite GoT addition, emotionally speaking, which wasn’t in the book.

    Much like it, NOTHING about that Cat scene was incongruous. EVERYTHING about it was subtle, beautifully handled and ADDED to the character, from the scoring to the dialogue and above all, the performance.

    It pains me, it really does, that Michelle might now get some sense via the ‘net of that scene not being received well. And that sucks for an actress who doesn’t get talked about enough in relation to the acting strengths of this show in comparison to, say, Dinklage and Headey and the like.

    I think she should be.I hope that after S0309 she will be.

    So please just stop it, and give her the credit she deserves.

    (*Bangs own head against the wall.*)

    People are way too definitive on their views of what a character would or would not doñ has or has not done.

    From the books, we know Catelyn resented Jon. We know she was mean to him at points and cool to him most often. We know she was a loving mother to her own children and would go to great lengths for them. We know that, compared to most of our characters, she is relatively pious. (In fact, aside from Septons, is anyone more likely to honestly pray to the seven)

    I don´t see anything in her monologue that contradicts. BookCat and ShowCat are different, for sure, but its only a travesty in the eyes of those who are bringing a view defined by more than is in the books.

  361. Alice
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    A-Gone,

    Ralph Ineson, who played Dagmer Cleftjaw last season.

  362. arden
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Darquemode: appy that she survi

    HE IS YOUR KING

  363. A-Gone
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Alice,

    OMG, how could I forget him ? Yeah ! Thanks.

  364. A-Gone
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    WHEN DO WE FIND OUT THE RATINGS ?

  365. Alan
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind:
    I enjoyed it.

    I find myself especially enjoying new scenes. I’m a faithful book reader and have read and listened to these books many times over. I know the story ridiculously well. While seeing A Storm of Swords on my screen is a GRRM junkie’s dream come true, what I miss about reading the books every time I revisit is that as wonderful and as subtle as they can be, in the main, they have now lost their ability to surprise me. You can only read or listen to something for the first time, once.

    These new scenes can bring that sense of wonder back to a hardcore fan. That’s a real gift folks. As long as these new imagined scenes fit the story, and it has the power to surprise us (in a good way)? We should be on our knees being thankful for it — not complaining. So I’m good with that.

    This.

    While I love seeing Ned’s execution or the Tyrion/Tywin scene done well, I really enjoy the extra scenes that could have occurred in the book, but didn’t. Marge’s storyline, or Catelyn’s monologue, etc. I even enjoy changes if they are done well, though it’s always risky. Arya and Tywin; I even like some of Talisa’s stuff.

    But I can separate the stories. It’s okay that Shae on the show is completely different; I’ll be disappointed if certain things change, but it is interesting for now.

  366. carlb4
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    dmf,

    He was chained…

  367. sunspear
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    CatSnow13:
    Tyrion and Shae’s scene was almost unbearable. The fact that Shae can be killed at any point if her involvement with Tyrion is discovered made that whole scene to me unbelievable. After everything she has witnessed in Kings Landing should be enough for her to be more cautious, but she seems to willingly ignore those imminent threats and rather invest emotions on pointless jealousy. The bickering back and forth between them was so generic, I believe the writers could have done such a better job portraying their relationship and the toll that the surrounding circumstances is taking on their relationship, but when Tyrion said “I only have eyes for you” I knew we had a reached a point of no return for those two.

    Did you actually read the books?

  368. Bryon Blofstein
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Matt,

    the only thing that I found enjoyeable about the Shae/Tyrion scene is if you’ve read the books you know who will be betrothed to Tyrion. I think gives more value to the scene. Although I found Shae playing jealousy up a little too much.

  369. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Sometimes I wonder what books some of you read…seriously.

    Book Shae was horrible, flat, and really stupid.

    I was not sympathetic to book Cat in the least and feel much more touched by her in the show.

    Loving Margery!

    Hodor, hodored twice!!!

  370. Ilia Stark
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I am the biggest GOT fan ever,but this episode left me thinking “WTF!”
    I had trouble watching it to the end,and i have read ALL the books TWICE.
    Very disappointed in action progression.
    IMHO- s03e02- utterly boring!
    No Daenerys.too little Thyrion,too little Jon Snow and too much stupid and boring talk.

  371. Lina
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    First thing I have to say, as a long time defender of the Reeds and proponent of their inclusion in the show, is that all of us who were pushing for them were definitely in the right. They are awesome on screen and Bran’s journey would never have worked without them.

    Loved:
    -Jojen & Meera. Their intro scene was fantastic and beautifully shot. Jojen walking through the trees was so mysterious, almost a foil to the way we usually see the white walkers in the forests beyond the Wall. Love how Meera got one over on Osha, and I loved Jojen’s interaction with summer. I think that moment shows us, as viewers, that we can trust the Reeds, without giving away too much or making their characters too innocent or upfront. The comment about Howland crying when Ned died was a nice touch. I’m hopeful for Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I’m not holding my breath. Also, Thomas Sangster’s age/height does not seem as jarring consider Isaac has grown so much!
    - Margaery. I’ll admit I had a lot of issues when they cast Natalie Dormer and aged Margaery so much. But I love her. She’s quickly becoming one of my favorite characters on the show, as she is the perfect mix of intelligence, charm and subtlety. She’s how I hope Sansa becomes, and she’s how Cersei could be if she weren’t such a terrible person. The scene with Joff was gold, and it shows how dense and self-absorbed Joffrey is.
    - Olenna. Perfect. I’m not going to say more.
    - Thoros. I like that he sort of trolls Arya (“you’re DANGEROUS!”) but you can tell her doesn’t mean her any ill will. Paul Kaye doesn’t match anything I imagined of book Thoros, but I’m loving him. Anguy seems fun too.
    -Jaime/Brienne. Some great dialogue in there I don’t remember from the books (Jaime’s line about Renly and the throne, i.e.). Also, Gwen Christie really does a great job with Brienne’s stoicness and strength, and all the swordplay.
    - Shae. She just seems so…genuine. IT’S GOING TO HURT SO MUCH YOU GUYS. I sort of hope they change her story. The only way I can see this working out is that she gets so jealous of Tyrion/Sansa that she sleeps with Tywin out of spite. Or that Tywin/Cersei find out about her and force her to testify against Tyrion or die. I think this Shae does love Tyrion, but I do think she’s a survivor above all. In an ideal world I’d like her to go with Sansa to the Vale and fill the role of the girls Sansa befriends there. :(

    Didn’t like:
    - Robb/Talisa/Bolton. I just found that scene bland, and I don’t like that they are going for a really heavy-handed approach for leading up to the RW.
    -Locke. More so I feel indifference than dislike, and I know it was a change to save time/confusion, but Vargo Hoat could have added a good dose of humor.

    Not sure:
    - Cat’s story about Jon. I liked the scene as a scene within the show, but I’m not sure if I liked its inclusion in the big picture. Fairley played it really well (her Cat > book Cat), and I think it was emotionally poignant because it showed that Cat knows her treatment of Jon is wrong, but that she can’t help acting that way. She’s much more human in the show, in my opinion, and this was an example of that. It also worked to tie scenes together, and to remind us that we don’t know who Jon’s mom is! But I think that last note is why I’m not sure if I like it in the sense of the big picture. I sort of wish they’d stop casually reminding us that Jon has an unknown mother and spend a little more time talking about Lyanna/Rhaegar (of course assuming that R+L=J is true, which it has to be). Let’s hope for the “Rhaegar fought nobly and died” bit from Ser Jorah.

  372. Juego de Tronos
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    I liked this episode a lot!

  373. Brendan
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    WIC, could you start a poll, who is your least favorite character from the show? Choices would be Joffrey, Ros or Talisa. Having read the books and watched each episode at least 10 times (I know I need to get a life) my vote goes to Talisa. I truly hope she is shorter by a head after the RW.

  374. WompWomp
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Brendan,

    I don’t think WiC should put up anything that remotely institutionalizes negativity. Not that we can’t ever be critical, but the tenor of the fandom depends on maintaining the neutral to positive spectrum. Otherwise you’re just pulling a Karstark.

    At this point, Talisa’s here to stay. I had my reservations last season (her and Robb’s conveniently magnetic attraction for one), but there’s no use grousing about it much now. So long as she’s tastefully applied and we don’t get any more childhood stories leading into naked time scenes, I think we’re good.

  375. Legion
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    The Joffrey scenes were my highlight scenes this episode because they were new scenes and they made me question some things.

    I think they really showed well how Joff is still a twisted little kid inside, and maybe even hinted at some sexual confusion of his own with how reluctant he was to touch her or talk about her.

    Dont get me wrong, I’m not suggesting they are making Joffrey gay or even really going for that, but I do think it was slightly intentional an addition in order to highlight, and continue to highlight that Joff isn’t a one dimensional villain, he’s a teenage boy whose led a spoilt and sheltered life and is now having all sorts opened up to him and being expected of him.

    He’s still evil, but it’s layered evil, not pantomime cartoon villain evil.

    On saying that, the idea of him being gay is hilarious in the context of Margaery just being unable to land herself someone who actually fancies her.

  376. tysnow
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    I too cannot fathom the hate for the Cat monologue, Michele is a consummate actress and delivered her lines exceptionally. I enjoyed the little tale of baby Jon and her wishing him dead, then asking forgiveness and saying she will be a good stepmum. Seeing the grief on her face and eyes, believing she is now paying for her sins for not fulfilling the promise to the seven. It was almost to gut wrenching. If she can deliver this monologue with such talent, just imaging her in episode 9.

    To those hating the scene because book Cat would never say or think this, go to the Tower and ask one of the Beef Eaters to shorten you by a head, obviously your brain cannot separate show GoT from your minds eye image of the book.

  377. Robbb
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Loved this episode.
    Haven’t seen a lot of talk about my favorite part of the show – thats right, Margaery talkin’ about doing a little bit of anal.

    I can see it now: Vanessa Taylor turning in her script with these touching moments including Cat’s monologue, and D&D being like – love it, its just missing one thing. Curious who the lead perv is on the show, Dan or Dave?

  378. siberia82
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Since Joffrey knows that Renly is a “degenerate”, then surely he is aware that Loras is one, too. (As depicted on the show, the rumours surrounding the former Lord of Storm’s End and the Knight of Flowers are fairly rampant.) When Joff tells Margaery that he plans to execute all homosexuals, was he also trying to test her loyalty towards him (and not just expressing his disgust towards gay men)? By subtly threatening that he would kill Loras for his “perversions,” he may have been curious as to how Margaery would react. At least to me, that would make his character even more twisted than if you take his comment simply at face value.

    Considering how homophobic Joffrey is on the show (I don’t recall his attitude being this extreme in the novels), it surprises me that he hasn’t made any derogatory remarks about Loras’ (or Renly’s) sexuality during the dinner scene in the last episode. It just seems like the kind of thing he would enjoy doing (or perhaps he has enough brain to realize that Loras would probably murder him for the insult).

  379. Shane
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    I really liked Bran’s dream sequence, although I think they missed a good opportunity to show the entire Stark family play out that scene from season 1. A Sean Bean cameo would have been great! Maybe they tried something like that? It may sound a little cheesy, but I think it would have worked well.

  380. Mike Chair
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Robbb: Haven’t seen a lot of talk about my favorite part of the show

    I just commented in the Recap post and quoted Hibberd’s recap on the subject:

    “Margaery explains that Renly … suggested they engage in “something very painful that couldn’t possibly result in children,” creating a rather long and polite new term for a popular video category on adult websites.”

    The guy’s hilarious.

  381. tysnow
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone notice the subtle alarmed expression on Shea’s face when Loras mentioned Sansa would be seeing Lady Oleana.
    Speaking of QoT, Dame Rigg was perfectly cast, I was grinning and quietly laughing at her diabolical cunning and sharp quips. With her and Margery present in KL, the Lannister’s are in for a proper bitch slapping. It is a wonder Tywin (knowing) how devious the QoT is, doesn’t find some excuse to rid KL of her machinations.

  382. Villane
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Thought it was wonderful from start to finish. Loved Cat’s tale. Loved all the new characters. Loved Jaime v. Brienne. If the episodes are this good during what is the slowest part of Storm of Swords, I can’t even imagine how great they’re going to be once it gets rolling.

  383. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    A lot of you are missing the point that for many of these characters, their religion is a powerful part of their lives – being cursed by breaking a vow to the Seven isn’t a wholly implausible conclusion. And not entirely without justification – there’s a lot of magic on the fringes of the world.

  384. dubq
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    JamesL:
    dubq,

    The First of the First men is supposed to be surrounded by trees, when Jon goes off with the Halfhand they are in forests, we have yet to see a tree in Iceland.

    That is in the book, not the TV show. You should watch that episode again. There are no trees at the Fist (the show version). http://www.reelgoddess.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Game-of-Thrones-2.05-Kit-Harrington.jpg

  385. Jillybean
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    my husband rarely laughs out loud at tv (usually just a light chuckle) and he really laughed at that one. Classic.

  386. Nagga's Kin
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Wrt Cat’s monologue: I haven’t read the books so I don’t know what, if anything, D&D decided to change. However, in terms of the show, it all made sense.

    Unable to hold Ned accountable for his infidelity, she projected her anger at that betrayal onto Kit. She could not accept the infant stranger into her family, so she prayed to the Stranger to take the boy’s life. Confronted with the harsh reality of the pox he contracted, she changed her mind but her heart never followed. As a result, she tolerated Kit in her household but never managed to loved him like one of her own. Cat may not be the earth mother her piety and Tully upbringing tell her she ought to have been, but at least she owns up to her character flaw. Her enduring guilt about it is evidence of a working moral compass.

    Side note: compare and contrast this with Cersei’s and Tywin’s deep-seated hatred of Tyrion, whose mother died during his birth. Their lack of guilt about the irrationality of blaming the halfman for that tragedy lies at the heart of their own respective pathologies.

    Back to Cat, who is saying all this to Talisa, yet another stranger brought into the household by a Stark man against her will. Subtext: Cat is struggling to tolerate the Volantian woman but it’s unlikely she’ll ever be able to get beyond the betrayal the foreigner embodies.

    This familial strain is echoed and amplified in a separate scene, in which Lord Karstark signals Robb that the secret marriage to Talisa in spite of his oath to Lord Frey will be his political undoing: fealty cuts both ways. Cat sending Brienne and Jaime to KL didn’t help matters but ultimately, it was no more than the cherry on top. In spite of a just cause and continued success on the battlefield, all that is now holding Robb’s military alliance together is a base desire for revenge against the Lannisters.

    The following isn’t a book spoiler but rather an additional insight I gleaned from the show. Some viewers may prefer to be surprised by future events instead.

    In a third scene, Roose Bolton competes yet again with Talisa for Robb’s attention. This time, he finally manages to cockblock her and deliver bad tidings – an echo of a similar scene in S1 featuring Ned, Cat and Maester Luwin. In the following scene Robb tells Cat that her father, whom she hasn’t seen in years, has died so they now have to abandon the pursuit of Ser Gregor Clegane and attend a funeral in Riverrun instead.

    The second message is (supposedly) from Roose Bolton’s bastard son and states that the Ironborn had already torched and abandoned Winterfell by the time his host got there to liberate the place. However, we viewers already know from S2E10 that Theon and his men were in fact besieged there, i.e. this second message is a lie. The obvious implication is that the Stark family home was set on fire by Bolton soldiers. What we don’t know at this point is if Roose has been planning this act of covert treason all along or, if his bastard son decided to show some initiative here.

    Either way, I suspect Theon is being tortured to elicit a false confession corroborating the cover story. It seems likely that Roose’s bastard son would have ignored Robb’s goody-two-shoes instructions to let the rest of the Ironborn go home. After all, they just might contradict the carefully concocted false account of events at some later date. However, the show has not provided any information to that effect to date.

  387. Quowala
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Luana,

    Okay… you are extremely observant!

  388. Hounded
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    RamsaySnow,

    lol whut?

  389. Hounded
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Thanks!
    How freaking cool is the Blackfish!?!?!?!?

  390. Lex
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Wonderful episode.

    The Queen of Thorns was way better than I expected. She got several big laughs out of my friends and I (the line about squirting milk back up the udder).

    The Hound also got a huge laugh (Thoros?? What the fuck are you doing here?)

    Meera seemed particularly bad-ass. Can’t believe how old Bran looked.

    Loved it!

  391. Adria
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    xFire and Bloodx: omg everyone stop complaining about catelyns part. They’re trying to make us connect with her more before the rw, so it’ll be much more sad/shocking

    Yes, it’s obvious they’re trying to make us connect with Cat more before the RW. But some of us want to connect more with the Freys! XD Sorry, but sad and shocking are not words that described my experience of the RW.

  392. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    I predict that Season Three will be the most divisive season to date.

    Me? I love it. I love looking at the show as a separate entity from the books. Much more enjoyable that way. Try it.

    As things ramp up and get more complicated in these later books, it’s going to be really tough to keep all the balls going. I trust D&D. They’re HUGE fans, and I doubt anyone here could do better.

    So far, this season is looking like it might be my favorite. The cinematography in these last two episodes has been epic!

  393. Winterlarks
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    siberia82:
    Since Joffrey knows that Renly is a “degenerate”, then surely he is aware that Loras is one, too. (As depicted on the show, the rumours surrounding the former Lord of Storm’s End and the Knight of Flowers are fairly rampant.) When Joff tells Margaery that he plans to execute all homosexuals, was he also trying to test her loyalty towards him (and not just expressing his disgust towards gay men)? By subtly threatening that he would kill Loras for his “perversions,” he may have been curious as to how Margaery would react. At least to me, that would make his character even more twisted than if you take his comment simply at face value.

    Considering how homophobic Joffrey is on the show (I don’t recall his attitude being this extreme in the novels), it surprises me that he hasn’t made any derogatory remarks about Loras’ (or Renly’s) sexuality during the dinner scene in the last episode. It just seems like the kind of thing he would enjoy doing (or perhaps he has enough brain to realize that Loras would probably murder him for the insult).

    I was wondering about Loras’ projected future safety during this scene as well. I did a little catch in my breath and Margaery had a sweeping look of concern pass over her face.

    Joff did make a comment to the tailor who was draping fabric on his shoulder. He yelled, perhaps with disgust, “NO FLOWERS!” or florals? and whipped it off. Maybe a subtle reference to the Knight of Flowers. Why else have him say anything at all about fabric?

  394. The Pointy End
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Skipjack,

    Since it is also unclear in the book how Shae ends up in Tywin’s bed it could well be that she’s been Tywin’s little bird all along. In this scenario it would be easy for her to testify against Tyrion when he’s tried for the murder. And of course in this case Tyrion getting married to Sansa in order for the Lannisters to get their hands on Winterfell will be no surprise to her, and her being jealous of Sansa is just a way for her to conceal her true business with Tyrion. Never read the first book and don’t remember the second very well so do correct me if this is totally impossible.

  395. Lea
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    I love how Gendry makes a point to ask Arya why she didn’t have Jaqen kill Joffrey and Tywin which would have ended the war. While Arya never really answers Gendry’s question, I wonder if it was intended foreshadowing by D&D which I think is brilliant. We book readers know that Joffrey and Twyin’s deaths are coming, but we know it’s far from any ending of war and death. In fact, it’s the catalyst of much more to come in Westeros.

  396. Brendan
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I love the books and I love the show but when I see Talisa on screen I just think to myself, here comes some shit acting and tedious dialogue. I try not to let her ruin any of the show for me but considering how out of sight, out of mind Robb’s wife is in the books, it just makes me grit my teeth when she takes up precious screen time. If there were more than 10 episodes per season she would be easier to accept. Here’s hoping she dies in season 3. That’s not negativity either, it is sheer optimism.

  397. TBW
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    I think he meant that he meant a single king has more than his army to win a war with, he also has his hand in marriage. By marrying someone with no family in Westeros to help the cause and not being able to marry into the Frays now, has doomed them. But since this whole thing doesn’t really happen in the books this way, I’m not really sure what they’ll do with her. the character is already way bigger than in the books, where his secret wife is treated as tool to set up the ending of the book. But now that they are expanding her into someone who will be with us for a while, I’m wondering exactly how much of Rob’s story they plan to change up.
    House Snow,

  398. Hounded
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Thomas,

    That scene made me look forward to Tyrion strangling her

  399. Doug
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    I’m going to say something that might sound nasty but it’s my opinion so I’ll say it. For the great actors/actresses this show has they have some bad ones too. Talisa and Shae are bad. And they bring the scene they’re in down with them.

    I liked the episode when it ended and it was fresh in my mind. As the time has passed, I have liked it less and less when I think back on it. It was not a particularly entertaining episode to be honest with you. It moved the plot along which is fine, and necessary, but it needs to pick up. They are not doing Arya the justice she deserves as a character.

  400. GoT4Evah
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    +1 to Doug, more so for Talisa than Shae but they are both weaker than the average actors in the series.

  401. the other guy
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    This season is truly amazing. I can’t stop myself from watching the newest episode several times after it airs. And I enjoy it every time.

    Reeds are great. Theon’s storyline is great. In fact, the Bolton/Frey betrayal is shaping up to be freaking epic. I’m truly satisfied with the way they handled the beginning of ASOS, and can’t wait for next week’s episode.

    In case someone involved in the production is reading this : thank you for the awesome job you’re making, and don’t mind all the haters/purists.

  402. Team Sansa
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    kelly,

    That’s exactly right. She NEVER would have wanted Jon Snow to become Jon Stark, because that would have put his claim to Winterfell above two of her own sons. I didn’t entirely hate the scene, but that part caught me off guard big time.

  403. Deborah
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    I really liked the Cat scene. The changes generally don’t bug me but what I truly hated from the get go were the changes to Cat and Sansa. Mostly Cat. In the books she is the one who convinces Ned to go south in the first place. He did not want to go. She pretty much shames him into it. Everything that happens after that is all because she made him go. Then Sansa gets pouty and rats out her dad. They showed that a bit but down played it imo. Cat’s monologue to me is more in line with what book-Cat would have been thinking. Didn’t make that much sense in the show tho. And one last note. Did anyone else need a second or two to recognize Bran? That is the danger of child actors. When they grow they really change.

  404. Scott Glennon
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    The Catelyn controversy continues! I think we do well to remember how “The Seven” plays a role in Westeros. Clearly, it shapes alot of Cat’s inner turmoil, and I think this goes to GRRM. He routinely asks some heavy questions thru the lens of the story like: What is the difference between art, science, and religion? What exactly qualifies as “Magic”? I say all this because Cat’s character is shaped by her beliefs. After all her inner conflicts she arrives at-Jon Snow. I thought this was a terrific fleshing out of a character, and wonderfully acted by Michelle. I have more to say about this episode but I am still processing…loving these comments!

    For Winterfell!

  405. Christian
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I am not reading through all 400 comments. Is anyone else concerned that the idea for a Tyrion/Sansa wedding is going to be proposed by Tyrion (via Shae). It seems like they are emphasizing Shae’s protectiveness over Sansa. I always liked the idea that both these parties head into their nuptials somewhat unwillingly and I like that Tywin offered his son a bride and the North in return for his service

  406. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Doug:
    I’m going to say something that might sound nasty but it’s my opinion so I’ll say it. For the great actors/actresses this show has they have some bad ones too. Talisa and Shae are bad. And they bring the scene they’re in down with them.

    I liked the episode when it ended and it was fresh in my mind. As the time has passed, I have liked it less and less when I think back on it. It was not a particularly entertaining episode to be honest with you. It moved the plot along which is fine, and necessary, but it needs to pick up. They are not doing Arya the justice she deserves as a character.

    That’s too bad, Doug.

    I, for one, respect your opinion. I’m glad I don’t have such a visceral reaction to any of the actors. I think they all do a fine job, insomuch as they don’t take me out of a scene.

    Just my opinion again, but I find interesting the amount of comments on this character or that character, Cat’s supposed deviation, etc. It just deepens the character for me.

  407. Winterlarks
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Legion,

    Joff’s pathology is a tough issue in the story but there it is. Like Joff with his crossbow, Margaery is also armed with knowledge, passed from Sansa, “He’s a monster.”

    Once inside Joff’s bedchamber, the megalomaniac awakens: “Why were you married to a traitor?” and threatens “degenerates” in the kingdom. The crossbow becomes the device that unites the two (like a date teaching good golf club technique). His arms encircle her, one hand holding her arm, the other hand slowly moving on top of hers under the bow. His expression softens and brightens during their macabre word play. He is so falling for her.

    Knowledge is power for Margaery while feeding Joff the message he wants to hear: Power is power. She wants to be the queen and will play this game of thrones (again).

  408. Sig79
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Fiona,

    Hmm, I didn’t see it as Brienne’s fault at all as to why they got captured. Jaime started the fight out in the open where anyone within a reasonable distance would see and hear them going at it. I saw it as his fault for getting caught like it was in the book.

  409. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    I have no problem with Shae, but I do have to admit to rolling my eyes whenever Talisa pops up on screen. Something about her and the way she is written just doesn’t fit. It is too modern. And most of the time it is overly sappy. I really hope she is a spy. If not, then I agree she needs to be culled from the roster this season.

  410. arolig
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    The similar look of Meera Reed and Jon Snow is scary to behold. Are they family perchance? :)

    It’s also funny how when cat talks about Jon’s big brown eyes the camera shows Talisas, like it has a double meaning and Cat hates her aswell :D

    Yeah, 2 hour long show premieres would be great! :)

  411. Sig79
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Fiona:
    I found it fascinating that Margaery gave Joffrey the same “As is your right. You are the king” speech that she gave to Renly last season. Although she said to Renly A king and to Joffrey THE king. Also, Nikolaj got 2nd billing in the credits, which I think is deserved knowing this season’s storyline. And I’m a bit bummed that they changed the plot so that it was basically Brienne’s fault that they got captured, not Jaime’s recklessness for starting a loud swordfight in such dangerous territory. That makes her more responsible for what comes next. Hmm. Overall I LOVED this episode – had no problem with the other changes.

    Hmm, I didn’t see it as Brienne’s fault at all as to why they got captured. Jaime started the fight out in the open where anyone within a reasonable distance would see and hear them going at it. I saw it as his fault for getting caught like it was in the book. And yeah, it was an awesome episode, can’t wait for more.

  412. Nancy
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    I agree. I had no issue whatsoever with that confession and scene from Catelyn. I felt like that was more true to her character then what was presented in the books. And Michelle Fairley rocked that scene (Tim Goodman from the Hollywood Reporter called it Emmy worthy and I agree).
    I enjoyed this episode immensely. Well acted all around. I’m still not sold on Ciaran Hinds as Mance and if I had to peak a weak scene in the episode, it was the stuff beyond the wall for me. He’s not making a strong impression like Diana Rigg and Thomas Brodie Sangster has (Those two are PERFECT for their parts).
    Loved the call back to the first episode with Bran’s dream. And I liked that Robb, Jon and Bran got to share a scene together again. Jaime and Brienne’s fight was everything I hoped it would be…I can’t stand Jaime, so I am glad she beat him. Joffrey just becomes a worse and worse person.
    I thought the scene where Robb has to break the bad news to Catelyn very well acted by Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley.
    I also loved Gendry pointing out that Arya may have wasted her kills by not using them on Tywin and Joffrey. Gendry gets my second smartest person in Westeros award behind Lady Olenna.

  413. Sunspear
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    I wouldn’t expect Jaime to easily handle another good sword fighter after being drug around in shackles and sleeping in the mud for weeks, as well as fighting handcuffed.

    I’d also like a longer season premiere episode, such as these first two in one and then nine more after.Having nothing of Arya, Jaime/Brienne, and Bran’s group last week and no Daenerys this week is a disappointing wait./I’m almost hoping that they eventually cut Dorne stuff almost entirely in the future just so the “good stuff” doesn’t suffer screen time.It already felt pasted in when I read the books so skipping that is fine with me.

    I would have to Dorne is a pretty important part of the story and can’t simply be left out. Dorne plays a vital role behind the scenes and I Believe will be one of the major players in the next book. So they can’t be left out.

    Plus who doesn’t like the red viper and sand snakes.

  414. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Sig79,

    I think the original comment was that it was her fault because she didn’t kill the farmer, and he later leads Locke to them.

  415. Zack
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Lina: Loved:
    -Jojen & Meera.

    Meera had one of the best lines of the night “Some people will always need help. That doesn’t mean they’re not worth helping” over a brilliant shot of Bran, the warging cripple, Hodor, the nearly-mute oaf with ridiculous strength, and Jojen, physically weak but mentally and spiritually rather amazing. I loved that moment. Very perceptive scene for many reasons.

  416. Zack
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Yeah but they can’t be expected to kill every random person they stumble across. No one is going to hold that against Brienne. Jaime sitting his ass down square in the middle of that extremely visible bridge in the middle of the day, then starting a commotion with the fight…no one is going to think anything other than “His fault.”

  417. Nancy
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Jen,

    Really? Because Theon was treated pretty darn good in Winterfell. Robb considered him like a brother and a valued friend…hence being betrayed. Robb trusted in Theon when he sent him back to his father. And if Bran and Rickon had not escaped, he would have had them killed. Um, no, there is nothing acceptable about that.
    I can tell you that after book 2, I HATED Theon. But I can appreciate Theon as a complicated character who will eventually realize how bad he screwed up and how sometimes your blood isn’t really your family. And I will say Book 5 Theon is how you do redemption arc, Jaime Lannister take note.

  418. Lina
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Zack: Meera had one of the best lines of the night “Some people will always need help. That doesn’t mean they’re not worth helping” over a brilliant shot of Bran, the warging cripple, Hodor, the nearly-mute oaf with ridiculous strength, and Jojen, physically weak but mentally and spiritually rather amazing. I loved that moment. Very perceptive scene for many reasons.

    And a wonderfully refreshing sentiment amid the ruthless power play of the high lords of Westeros.

    I really don’t know how anyone thought we could have gotten by without the Reeds!

  419. Brendan
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Doug,

    I agree! It seems like the show runners are showing a lot of Ros, Shae and Talisa. The three characters are pawns, nothing more. I doubt many people are emotionally attached to any of these women but yet they still steal plenty of screen time. There are incredible actors (Conleth Hill as Varys for example) who are not on display enough. Each time I see Shae, Ros or Talisa on screen I use it as an opportunity to get a drink or use the bathroom. I am very optimistic that all three characters may soon be eliminated.

  420. Ser Hound
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    I find it really strange that so many people are constantly saying how these episodes are “boring” and “too much dialogue” while also complaining about the deviations from the book. I’m re-reading Storm of Swords right now (about 25% into it) and there has been literally no “action” so far at all!!! And I’m not saying this is a bad thing at all. Ice & Fire is NOT about action. GRRM is a master of dialogue and character development.

    I don’t know how anyone could find this episode or the premiere boring. I think most of the scenes so far have been intriguing, well acted, and well written (especially the ones straight from the book :] ) It’s all just setting up the action that will take place later in the season (JUST like in the books!). In my opinion, D &D are doing an excellent job adapting the story and keeping it interesting.

  421. Darquemode
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Ser Hound,

    Agreed.
    Almost inevitably each week my favorite scene is a dialog scene with no action! The dialog and political maneuverings are the best part of the books for me and that continues with the TV series.

    Some episodes have been slower or less well-executed than others, but no episode has been boring to me. If someone watches an episode with such great actors and dialog, so much detail in the sets and wardrobes, and of such high overall producton values and is still bored I do not know what to say to them other than, “Good luck in life!”

  422. MX
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Brendan,

    Misogynist much? I like seeing all three of them. Oona Chaplin got some weak lines, and Kekilli can be too pouty occasionally, but all three of them are such a pleasure to look at — I’d much rather look at them than at most of the male actors, and I’m female.

    Let’s take a different perspective. Even if I didn’t hate Ramsay I’d still be bored stiff by Roose (can’t even recognize him when he shows up). I’m sympathetic with Davos but I don’t get why he’s there either. Even worse, the old man Marmont does nothing for me, I find his reactions very erratic. I’m also happy that Danaerys is not going to hook up with his son. See? From my point of view, there are a bunch of only semi-relevant male characters (not speaking about the actors here, most of whom do a fine job with the scraps they’re given).

    On the other hand, there are male characters I love — I could watch hours of Tywin, Tyrion, Joffrey, Bran, Gendry…and I expect I’ll be into Dario, horribile dictu. I don’t like all the female characters either — Ygrette, for instance, I find a bit meh, but that’s because the actress doesn’t appeal to me although the character is fun and suitable for Jon.

    We do agree on Varys, however. He is magnificent and they are not giving him enough playtime.

  423. Matt
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Kasie Strickland,

    It didn’t help that the Tyrion/Shae scene, with the exception of the Sansa argument, is EXACTLY the same as a previous scene.
    “Hello my Lion” “What are you doing here?” “We’ve talked about this before” “We’ve come to a dangerous place” “If my father finds out…” blah blah rehash. There is only 10 episodes per season, and the fact that they wasted 5 minutes of episode on a carbon-copy scene is distressing.
    I also find Shae’s sudden jealous jarring, and Tyrion moaning and begging for forgiveness like a street hooker was just embarrassing. Thank God he’s going to murder her and Tywin later

  424. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Damien,

    In all my time persusing talkback on this show, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything more downright depressing that the backlash against the superbly acted Catelyn scene with Michelle Fairley.

    Not that everyone isn’t entitled to an opinion, but for me it sums up the often rigid, unforgiving nature of the books vs. show debate that leaves me scratching my head.

    That scene was the heartbeat of the episode the way the Tywin/Tyrion scene became the heartbeat of the last, and I personally loved it.

    First up, as an actress, Fairley doesn’t get the credit she deserves.

    Second: why in God’s name are we lamenting the decision to portray a little more dimensionality and guilt attached to a character as a BAD thing, over and above simply having her two-dimensionally despise a boy who was in no way to blame for her ill feeling?

    She talks as a mother, with the empathy of a mother, and extends that to the knowledge of Jon being a “motherless child”.

    Cat IS strong and a survivor, yes, but here she is emotional and especially vulnerable because of the recent news about her father and missing boys.

    Where is the mystery or “character assassination” in that?

    It wasn’t even a full embrace of Jon Snow in any case: more, her being honest with herself as to the reasons why she couldn’t (and can’t) accept him as her own.

    CO-SIGN LOUDLY.

  425. Peter
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    I think Theon is the most complex character of all the series, indeed. You can call him a turncloak or not, depending on which House you shall consider as his family (Stark or Greyjoy). I sincerely think that most people in his situation would have acted just like him…
    Regardless, the Bastard of Bolton is lower than the lowest. I wonder what drove GRRM to create a character like this, what was his fuckin’ inspiration?

  426. Titan of Braavos
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    dmf:
    Robin,

    I feel like he didn’t stand a chance, and he’s supposedly the best swordsman in Westeros…

    Jaime had is hands tied, and was weak and in pain…

  427. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Overall I’d have to say this is a step up from the first episode. Better than the 2nd ep of season 2 as well.

    LOVED:
    Jojen and Meera: Boy, the casting gods win again. And Jojen’s first appearance has this great ethereal way about it, befitting that character. And Meera seems like a happy warrior, and devoted to her brother, and as others have pointed out, her saying that there are some people who always need help over a shot of Bran, Jojen and Hodor was great.
    Ned Stark’s voice: Way to block that scene the same way the first Bran/Jon/Robb scene was carried out. And as Sean Bean looms over the proceedings for being such a great strong presence on the show in year 1, so too does Ned Stark.
    Cat’s monologue: Wonderful. Of course she has conflicted feelings about Jon Snow! Of course she would have these moments of wanting to mother and care for him, and then ultimately failing on that level.
    Jaime and Brienne throw down: Stellar, and a great moment to end on.
    Gendry questions Arya: This is a meta-moment, it seems to me, and works perfectly out of Gendry’s mouth, for him to say “Why not Joffrey? Why not Tywin Lannister? You could have ended the war!” Hilarious.
    Lady Olenna: HOLLA.
    Anguy: “When I’m done talking, that arrow is going to fall down on your fat head. And now I’m done talking.”

    NOT SO MUCH:
    Tyrion/Shae: Probably not needed. They seem more confident this year in letting a few stories not appear each episode, so this time we miss Danys and Stannis. Tyrion’s the “star,” more or less, so it’s hard to not have him, but we could have lost this scene without much hardship.

  428. Brendan
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    MX,

    I think Shae gets in the way for many Tyrion scenes. Peter Dinklage is in a different league than Sibel Kekilli as an actor. The contrast is obvious when they share screen time. I think Talisa’s 45 minute monologue in season 2 about her little brother almost dying soured me on her permanently. Since that scene she has done nothing to win me over as a fan. I find her to be very one dimensional in the show. As for Ros can we at least agree that she is a waste of air time? Again, if each show or season were longer I wouldn’t be quite as down on the big three duds.

  429. Selmy
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Thank you Vanessa Taylor, I liked your episode ”Garden of Bones” last year and this one had amazing dialogue. Standouts for me: Bran and introduction of Reeds, QoT, Catelyn monologue, Jaime Brienne talking. Oh and Theon’s torture scenes were good too.

  430. Matt
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone think that Jojen telling Bran about how the Sight can show you the future, the present AND the past could setting it up to be used as a flashback technique?

    Perhaps for some of the House of the Undying missing visions, and maybe some Robert’s Rebellion info-dumps e.g. Tower of Joy?

    D&D said there would be no flashbacks on the show, but if it is Bran seeing a *vision* it technically is happening in present time…

  431. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Also, has anyone noticed how D&D are doing a much better job at time management?Every episode basically has lasted up to the end of the hour timeslot.Last season it was so annoying when I would wait a week to watch the next episode and when it was over I would look at the clock and it would be like 9:47pm.Made me feel so cheated.This season, so far, they are pushing each episode very close to an hour.Good job D&D! =)

    I believe the production has been allocated more time , possibly up to 8 minutes
    per episode. I forget the details discussed here, months ago. I’m still greedy for
    time though, perhaps a 2 hour season finale. Nerd Dream *>*

  432. Steve
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    I’m going to make what might be an unpopular comment.

    I don’t really like season 3 so far. For the first time in the years this show has been on the air there have been moments where I’ve felt bored, and that the show was dragging. I never considered myself one of those insufferable book purists, but maybe I am without ever realizing it. I certainly not hope, but I don’t know, I just have not been overjoyed by this season so far.

  433. Ser Hound
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Best sword fight of the series so far! I loved the way the Jaime acted when he held the sword and kinda danced around her before the duel started. You could tell how happy he was just to hold a sword again.

    Here’s to hoping that even this sword fight is topped later in the season! :)

  434. Ser Hound
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Steve,

    Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

  435. WildSeed
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Adria

    Umm… okay, glad you’re not into rating the good/bad monitor, that has no place
    in GRRM’s type of prose. As you noted from my earlier reply and many I made in
    the past, I try to remain neutral ( or respect the whole of these characters are in context
    to the story ). I must have misunderstood your comments. I am uncertain however, of
    what you mean as ” shades of grey , as in the books ” (?). Also,
    Catelyn Stark
    did not survive the wedding at the Twins, she is no longer a whole person in the
    sense that she once was, she has become Lady Stoneheart. Some argue that she
    is a Zombie version with little humanity or emotion.

    to add: I ‘m not sure why the above comments were put in spoilers, I did not
    apply that. Must have been a glitch.

  436. saluk
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Team Sansa:
    kelly,

    That’s exactly right.She NEVER would have wanted Jon Snow to become Jon Stark, because that would have put his claim to Winterfell above two of her own sons.I didn’t entirely hate the scene, but that part caught me off guard big time.

    Of course she didn’t want him to become a Stark. She felt guilty for cursing a baby dead and was bargaining with the Gods, saying stupid things. And obviously when he became well she didn’t do any of it. She didn’t even try.

  437. siberia82
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    I was wondering about Loras’ projected future safety during this scene as well. I did a little catch in my breath and Margaery had a sweeping look of concern pass over her face.

    Margaery will no doubt warn her family about Joff’s threat. I found it a bit odd that TV!Olenna didn’t mention anything about a betrothal, but the writers are probably saving this scene for a future episode. Marrying Loras to Sansa in this case is not just about the Tyrells having a potential claim to the North, but it’s also a way to protect Loras should Joffrey begin his extermination of “degenerates.” As much as Loras dislikes the idea of being married to a woman, this possible danger to his life will make it easier for Olenna and Margaery to convince him that he HAS to marry Sansa.

    Joff did make a comment to the tailor who was draping fabric on his shoulder. He yelled, perhaps with disgust, “NO FLOWERS!” or florals? and whipped it off. Maybe a subtle reference to the Knight of Flowers. Why else have him say anything at all about fabric?

    I’ve just realized that there seems to be more animosity between Loras and Joffrey on the show than in the novels. We don’t have the PoV for either Loras or Joff in ASoIaF, but outwardly at least, there didn’t seem to be any obvious hate between the two characters. In the TV series, however, Loras called Joffrey a “monster” in Season 1, and in the Season 2 finale, Loras’ body language couldn’t conceal how disgusted he was at having to bend the knee to the boy-king. When I first watched the moment where Joffrey yells “No flowers!” to the tailor, I suspected that it might be a clue that he despised the Knight of Flowers for not being “manly” enough. His scene with Margaery then confirmed my belief (and it even went beyond my expectations).

    Is it any wonder that TV!Loras is not part of Joff’s Kingsguard? It’s not just because the writers wanted to make him available for marriage; Loras on the show would never volunteer to be Joffrey’s bodyguard, and Joff himself wouldn’t want a “deviant” to don the white cloak.

  438. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Robin,

    It stems from the decision to give everyone two-handed swords. They are slower by nature, and so is the fighting style. You can’t flash those around like you can a longsword or cavalry sabre.

    That’s not a two handed sword lol…it’s hardly even a one-and-a-half sword, wich is what they make it to be

  439. JamesL
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Doug,

    Especially Talisa, there has never been a good Talisa scene.

  440. Steve
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Ser Hound,

    Yeah, it is just my opinion. But it’s not only mine. There are other sites dedicated to this show besides this one, and the others one are not as positive as this one.

  441. Andrea
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    I like Brienne/Jaime and definetely Thoros.
    I didn’t like the scene of Lady Olenna and Sansa, which I was looking forward. I didn’t like it because Sansa says immediately Joffrey is a monster: the scene doesn’t communicate at all the tension she feels about telling the truth.

  442. saluk
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Steve:
    I’m going to make what might be an unpopular comment.

    I don’t really like season 3 so far. For the first time in theyears this show has been on the air there have been moments where I’ve felt bored, and that the show was dragging. I never considered myself one of those insufferable book purists, but maybe I am without ever realizing it. I certainly not hope, but I don’t know, I just have not been overjoyed by this season so far.

    I don’t think you are a book purist. A book being split into two seasons is a double edged sword. It gives them a bit more breathing room, which some people might appreciate. The plot, plot, plot of previous seasons felt a bit incessant to me, whereas the pacing feel much better here. But the difference in pacing between previous seasons and this one is definitely noticeable and might be jarring, especially if you expect it to be consistent. But some people aren’t going to like that shift. Don’t worry too much, supposedly the next two episodes are better, and now that all of the plotlines are basically introduced, things will pick up.

    Never expect too much from the first few episodes of a season :)

  443. Visenya
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Morgan King,

    The idea that Cat’s attitude towards Jon somehow caused the war is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Yes, oath-breaking and magic are important parts of the story but these are not the prominent themes of Catelyn’s story (pre-Stoneheart at least).

    Catelyn did not owe Jon Snow motherly love, much less swear him a holy vow. It’s flat-out dumb to say a woman who doesn’t shower every child in her life with love is cursed. By that logic, every single Westerosi noblewoman who has ignored a husband’s bastard is doomed to misery.

    I’m sure people who really want to hate Cat will continue to hate her for “mistreating” Jon, but blaming the war on this peripheral relationship is actually stupid.

    EDIT: Also, why is everyone assuming that disliking the show’s interpretation of Cat == disliking Michelle Fairley’s portrayal? The casting was perfect. If only the same could be said for the writing.

  444. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Meg: This reminds me of a quote from Caitlan Moran that our culture views women as “makeover projects,” and I think that’s what has happened here with Cat. For some reason she needs to be the vehicle for audience pathos? So I agree with what you and Miss are saying. D&D don’t get the subtlety of her – they capture the oppressive “oh, the guilt!” of her chapters but miss what’s important about women’s resistance…I liked that in the books Cat was amongst the fighting and didn’t feel the need to lock herself in Winterfell and raise all 5 Stark kids.

    That said, I don’t know how, in her convo with Talisa, she lept from praying for Bran/Rickon’s safety to –Jon? Was she perhaps thinking that if Jon was in Winterfell he might have been able to protect them, and she feels partly responsible for his being at the Wall (though that was not her fault, IMO). If anything, she should have shared her thoughts on her own situation CURRENTLY: her husband’s dead, her own son thinks she’s a criminal, her kids are scattered to the Wind, and Winterfell is in ruins…but instead this bad shit is happening b/c she could’t be Jon’s mommy? It doesn’t flow logically. Beautifully acted, though…

    Because she is making one of those scary doll things for Bran and Rick and she is remembering how she made one for Jon…plus she thinks what ahppened to Bran and Rick now is her fault for how she treated Jon

  445. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    House Snow,
    Actually, Osha was very specific when she spoke to Bran about it. She asked if he’d been dreaming about/as the wolf and when he brought up the raven instead, that was what she didn’t like. So she didn’t mind talking about the wolf dream but she definitely didn’t want to talk about the raven. I think there is a distinction in her mind. Plus the wildings north of the wall, from which she comes, use wargs to their benefit (i.e., Orell). There’s no reason to think she would have a problem with it, but this is the first time we’ve heard anyone talk about “the sight”. So maybe the wildings have superstitions about people with “the sight”. I guess we’ll see.

  446. Eitate
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who doesn’t like Diana Riggs’ acting? She makes me feel it’s only acting, and that I don’t watch “real” situations… Which is not the case for anyone else in the cast.

  447. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    MyBFFTheHound,

    That was great! Loved her expression…

  448. Baihu1983
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I can see the Tyrion/Shae scene leading to trouble

    She will think he knew about the wedding when it happens which will ”help” her betray him in S4

    Very good episode anyways.

  449. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    The Pain Yak,

    In all fairness the fight with Brienne wasn’t fair. His hands were still bound, he’s exhausted and has been captive for weeks and weeks. She’s better fed, has much greater range of movement….she hasn’t been beaten up repeatedly over the last few weeks….

    That being said, I loved the fight scene. It’s very clear the Jaime now recognizes her to be at least as good as he is and that is blowing his mind. And he has to come to this realization in order for the rest of the events they go through together to make sense.

  450. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    The Pain Yak,

    Well, Rickon was there but had little to do. And it’s that way in the books too, if I recollect.

  451. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    I think the Cat scene is a set up for something later, way, way later….here’s my vague, weak thoughts on the matter….IF you read the books you know that Cat gets killed but is brought back to life (the southern zombies as opposed to the northern zombies–not sure why GRRM has that symmetry but that’s another convo). Anyway, we know that Jon Snow is crucial to the story. I believe he will be there right up until the end (in spite of what we know from the last book) AND that he will be critical to their defeat of the white walkers. I think somehow that Cat will get her chance at redemption much further down the road. I’m betting that Cat and Jon will meet again and she will repay him with all the kindness she never showed him while she was alive. I just have a hard time believing that the DnD would waste a scene like that. It had to be purposeful.

  452. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    Damien,

    CO-SIGN LOUDLY.

    Well said. And much needed.

    It baffles me, too, but we just have to let all this slide off our backs. There will always be people who disagree with the way characters are portrayed. I for one, am glad I can enjoy the show without all the nitpicks. (I know others feel differently and this isn’t a slam against them.)

  453. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Nancy,

    It’s not that easy though. Think of it from Theon’s perspective, he’s taken away from his family VERY young. He doesn’t have the right to leave and he’s not a free man. He’s forced to compete with his captor’s kids, Robb AND Jon, who are both looking to be great warriors….I’m not saying what he did to Winterfell and the Starks was right. BUT he had to be pretty messed up in the head. I also think GRRM meant that Theon’s early life as a “hostage” to the Starks to be contrasted with what he goes through later. It turns out that the Starks were much nicer to him than they had to be. Will probably make him regret what he did, all the more. From an actor’s viewpoint, his character is a conflict and psychologically fascinating.

  454. Lina
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Visenya:
    Morgan King,

    The idea that Cat’s attitude towards Jon somehow caused the war is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Yes, oath-breaking and magic are important parts of the story but these are not the prominent themes of Catelyn’s story (pre-Stoneheart at least).

    Catelyn did not owe Jon Snow motherly love, much less swear him a holy vow. It’s flat-out dumb to say a woman who doesn’t shower every child in her life with love is cursed. By that logic, every single Westerosi noblewoman who has ignored a husband’s bastard is doomed to misery.

    I’m sure people who really want to hate Cat will continue to hate her for “mistreating” Jon, but blaming the war on this peripheral relationship is actually stupid.

    EDIT: Also, why is everyone assuming that disliking the show’s interpretation of Cat == disliking Michelle Fairley’s portrayal? The casting was perfect. If only the same could be said for the writing.

    I think that what Morgan was trying to say was that it wouldn’t be ludicrous for Catelyn Stark to assume she was cursed by the gods. I don’t think anyone here is saying she is cursed or blaming the war on her. We all know it’s ridiculous to assume such, but we live in a society shaped by science and technology. But for someone living in a world dominated by religion, and a world in which magic isn’t completely impossible, it’s not so bizarre for Cat to consider the possibility of her poor fortune being a consequence of her angering the gods.

    In short: There is a difference between what seems possible to us and what seems possible to the characters within the world of ASOIAF.

  455. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Peter,

    Randomly put your finger into any history book and you’ll probably land on a sadistic monster…the Bastard of Bolton character isn’t, sadly, all that uncommon.

  456. Virtus
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if that boar’s head Joffrey used as target practice belonged to the beast that killed Robert. Maybe Cersei had it put on the wall…

  457. Icy Fingers
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    I’ve skipped to the end to post this because I’ve been desperate to see if anyone else noticed that the cross Theon is strung up on is IDENTICAL to the one on Roose Bolton’s sigil. I’m really hoping that this was a deliberate hint as to certain evil intentions…

  458. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    RamsaySnow:
    Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaging! THEY ARE RUINING THE BOOOOOKS!

    I don’t care about Cataracter assassination, I don’t care about the second episode, as I stopped watching this disgrace after the language assassination – the linguocide D&D inflicted upon unsuspecting viewers. The slavers in Astapor don’t speak Valyrian, they speak a bastardized version of Ghiscari, but the so-called writers don’t care about ASOIAF facts, they just go around happily ruining the show and the books. So at that point I stopped watching, and they can butcher and zombify Cat as much as they want, I don’t care anymore.

    GRRM painted a vivid caleidoscope of languages, dialects and language families and the so-called writers massacred it with their simplification. Now, I’m just ignoring this farce D&D are force-feeding us with, I know Mr. Martin is working 24/7 on the next book, and I’ll rather spend my time reading TWOW which will come out this summer than watching this Shame of Thrones.

    In and out. I’m going out of my basement now and I’m going to slap my mum, that’s how angry I am.

    A woman hopes she blocks your slap and gets you with an uppercut to the chin! LOLz

  459. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Virtus,

    Yes, it is. If you watch the ep through HBO Go and show interactive features, they point that out. Good catch!

  460. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Icy Fingers,

    Yes, I think it is. The flayed man is the sigil of House Bolton, so the torturer is a Bolton, of course we know that from the books

  461. Icy Fingers
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    Icy Fingers,

    Yes, I think it is.The flayed man is the sigil of House Bolton, so the torturer is a Bolton, of course we know that from the books

    I was meaning that I think it’s a subtle hint at even more evil intentions from the Boltons further down the road. Sorry for being so vague

  462. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    Damien,

    CO-SIGN LOUDLY.

    Meant to agree loudly with this post.

  463. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Lina,

    Correct – that’s exactly what I was saying!

  464. Arthur
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    Well said…

    It did kind of look like they put the Tyrion/Shae scene in there just so Tyrion could make an appearance in the episode. (Hey at least is wasn’t Ros)

    This is another tiny thing that bothers me. Don’t get me wrong I love Tyrion and Peter but geez, can’t D&D put the spotlight on someone else for a while? Do we really need to see Tyrion EVERY episode? D&D have no problem leaving Dany out a few episodes or anyone else but Tyrion… Tyrion has to pop up EVERY episode? We really needed to witness him getting a BJ?

    That 5min scene of Tyrion getting a BJ could have been spent with Bran or Arya or countless other POV characters.

    Message to D&D: It is alright if Tyrion misses an episode once in a while, This is called “Game of Thrones”, not “Tyrion Lannister”. You have other awesome actors that can perform just as well as Peter.

  465. serum
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    I believe this was the first episode since ned died where they havent mentioned him by name (although they talked about him an awful lot and we heard his voice) but Ill have to rewatch tomorrow night to be sure.

  466. Sig79
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:

    I think the original comment was that it was her fault because she didn’t kill the farmer, and he later leads Locke to them.

    Ah yes, true about the farmer. I guess she did just let him go which ultimately led to them being captured.

  467. dogs
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t read all 460 comments in this thread, but my thought on the Catelyn monologue was that it might be a kind of foreshadowing for Jon Snow eventually being named Robb’s heir later in the season. Like, Catelyn will eventually succumb to the idea that Jon Snow can have an official place within the Stark household if now all the other Stark children are missing or endangered.
    I liked it, because as the series progresses and the connections and relationships between separated family members fade within their more immediate and isolated circumstances, you kind of forget the significance of something like Catelyn’s feelings about Jon Snow. It’s something that isn’t ever really reconciled. So I think it was a clever, informative and functional way of developing her character in the midst of pressing circumstances. She’s getting all, like, re-evaluative about her life, since most of her children are missing, her husband’s dead, her father’s dead, her son is at war.

    I thought the scene was originally going to be about Talisa when she came riding over, but then Catelyn started ranting, and I was like, okay, this works I guess. It might be part of the writers’ strategy of making Talisa more likeable by being a passive character, listening and just being there and finding a place in Robb and Catelyn’s life through that, instead of doing stuff that apparently annoy people like sass out Robb and heal people without a bodyguard. I think it’s working on me, but maybe it’s just because I actively want to like Talisa’s character because everyone seems to hate her so much. I think her situation within Robb’s army is intriguing, being a source of tension between Robb and his bannermen, thereby making Talisa incredibly isolated. Even her horse is estranged from her. Like, cheesh guys, it’s probably really awkward for her negotiating all that tension.

    My only complaints about some things this season, and last season too I suppose, have to do with budget-related not-enough-atmosphere-to-certain-scenes things. Like: I didn’t really dig the atmosphere of Theon’s scene. It felt kind of hurried and sloppy and confused, and why are they asking Theon why he attacked Winterfell? It just seems such an arbitrary question to torture someone about. I’m sure there are more intelligent, strategic questions they could have come up with. It might have even been better if they opened with Theon just alone in the room, and then get some pretty intense, detailed shots of him and the room, before the dudes come in to drill up his feet. It just felt kind of stale is all.
    That’s my complaint about Davos’ last scene last episode too. I wish they’d shown a little bit of the inside of Dragonstone, or some sort of situation that visualized the situation of Dragonstone. Like the big fire. Or Stannis sentencing a prisoner or two to get burned just before Davos walks in.

  468. Al Swearengen
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Loved that episode in fact it’s probably one of my favorites for the entire series.

  469. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    I don’t think Jaime views anyone as his equal in the books or show. He is complimentary of Brienne, even when she feels that she only won because he was in chains and was malnourished. But he feels that his greatest strengths(speed and skill) were taken out of the equation with the chains. So it was basically a test of pure power, and he admits that she was physically stronger than him, comparing her strength to the Cleganes. He respects her because she is the real deal, but he never believes her to be his equal, IMO.

  470. Doug
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Bow,

    Don’t say that name without a spoiler tag in this context. Ever.

  471. MX
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Brendan,

    No, sorry. Ros is one of the most erotic creatures I can remember ever seeing on TV, and I might like her the most out of the three! Kekilli is partially hampered by English being her third language (Turkish syntax is often the complete opposite of English, with post- rather than prepositions, and both Turkish and German place the verb at the end), so some of her diction suffers occasionally and rather interestingly, her accent sounds more Turkish than German.

    I would be indifferent to Talisa except that she gets so much hatred, the line basically being “Robb would have been king if it weren’t for that non-noble dumb nurse.”

    Robb would have been wiped out sooner or later (too idealistic for the rough warriors out there), Talisa has nothing to do with it.

  472. Jem
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Riddle me this: the three “Bolton” guardsmen in the background of Theon’s torture scene were all dressed – unmistakably – as Greyjoys. Same helmets, sleeveless robes and two-tone breastplates as those shown last season. The one on the right clearly has a kraken sigil.

    I don’t know what in Seven Hells is going on here, but I cannot wait to find out.

  473. Elver
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    does anybody know if Jaime is going to meet Roose?

  474. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    JamesL:
    Maxwell James,

    Shae wouldn’t have chemistry with anyone because the actress is really bad. Probably one of the worst cast characters the show has down.

    Totally disagree.

  475. Zack
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    Hollyoak,

    I do too, especially in S2 and S3E1. The whole rant at Tyrion in this episode wasn’t as believable which I guess raises concerns for the evolution of the storyline but so far I’ve generally liked her quite a bit. And even this episode she was good, the actress. It just seemed silly that she would get jealous at that moment. But…for one thing, she has to act the story she’s given, and for another…having known multiple women who would behave exactly as preposterously, maybe the writing was fine too.

    But I do have to admit that I felt the slightest twitch of disappointment at the thought that they’re planning something so generic and predictable for Shae’s arc.

  476. Al Swearengen
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    I don’t get the hate for Sibel Kekilli I’ve enjoyed her portrayal of Shae, considering her background she’s become a pretty decent actress.

  477. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Jem,
    Perhaps you’ve got the quote marks around the wrong house!

  478. Hollyoak
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Patchy Face:
    Zack,

    How can we lobby for JG to get nominated for awards this year?He says he is not acting anymore after GoT.What a waste!

    I’ve heard this before. Do you know where this was first mentioned? Jack Gleeson is amazing in this show and it would be a loss to not see his talent again. He has never participated in the DVD commentary stuff has he? I don’t even recall seeing him on the red carpet during the huge season 3 promo blitz.

    He is an outstanding actor.

  479. Visenya
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Lina,

    Cat’s religion is important to her, both in the books and in the show. However, Jon Snow is NOT important to her. She doesn’t spend every moment of her life obsessing over their relationship. In her darkest hour (i.e. book 3 and season 3), Catelyn’s religion certainly motivates her to stay strong. I’m not saying it’s unrealistic for her to assume she was “cursed,” I’m saying it’s dumb of the show to portray her as thinking she was cursed because of Jon.

  480. Jem
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Morgan King,

    Of course you’re right, but talk about head fuckery. No wonder poor Theon’s confused about were he is! We saw mounted Greyjoy archers in one of the promos, on what looked like a hunt – which is pretty suspicious too. Obviously part of some hilarious prank being set up by Ramsay, but I wonder how.

  481. Monstadon
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Just got my gf into the series about 2 wks ago and now she’s caught up and watching season 3 w/ me. And her new favorite line from the series is the response given to Sam when he asked, with tears in his eyes, why Grenn and the other ranger left him when the white walkers came:

    “Because you’re slow, you’re fat, and we didn’t want to die”.

    laughed so hard at that one I had tears.

  482. Bean
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Pretty weak episode, but nothing terrible about it.

    Cat’s monologue — I don’t care if they edited her character, but it was dull and made her sound like an idiot (“my helpless role is to make stupid witch-nets”). Not a very good insight into the actual stress and anguish she feels at this point.

    Shae & Tyrion – I respect that they had to make tv show Shae likable (including likely where the plot with her will go – Tysha will NOT be a motivation in the tv show, sorry folks), but the stuff they’ve made up just isn’t very moving. Tyrion is going to end up just being a good guy who never lied to himself, was truly loved, and ends up doing stuff because people (like his dad) do bad things to him first. There’s not going to be any betrayal here. Simple, less psychological, but that’s tv vs book. And shae is just this strange softhearted whore who somehow falls in love with a dwarf and they get cute little jealousy scenes. But somehow it’s just not very believable that these world-weary characters would be all trite and 20th century that way. Meh.

    Not intolerably bad, just nothing special about the stuff they’ve filled in.

  483. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    dogs:
    I haven’t read all 460 comments in this thread, but my thought on the Catelyn monologue was that it might be a kind of foreshadowing for Jon Snow eventually being named Robb’s heir later in the season. Like, Catelyn will eventually succumb to the idea that Jon Snow can have an official place within the Stark household if now all the other Stark children are missing or endangered.

    I liked it, because as the series progresses and the connections and relationships between separated family members fade within their more immediate and isolated circumstances, you kind of forget the significance of something like Catelyn’s feelings about Jon Snow. It’s something that isn’t ever really reconciled. So I think it was a clever, informative and functional way of developing her character in the midst of pressing circumstances. She’s getting all, like, re-evaluative about her life, since most of her children are missing, her husband’s dead, her father’s dead, her son is at war.

    –Well put. We can’t see the history or have it described to us, so someone has to vocalize it, and Cat’s monologue does it well. She has conflicted feelings about Jon, and this does that very well. For 17 years this boy lived in her house; she’d never show him any motherly attention at all? Of course she would. But her heart hardened, and couldn’t grant that he be raised a Stark.

    I thought the scene was originally going to be about Talisa when she came riding over, but then Catelyn started ranting, and I was like, okay, this works I guess. It might be part of the writers’ strategy of making Talisa more likeable by being a passive character, listening and just being there and finding a place in Robb and Catelyn’s life through that, instead of doing stuff that apparently annoy people like sass out Robb and heal people without a bodyguard. I think it’s working on me, but maybe it’s just because I actively want to like Talisa’s character because everyone seems to hate her so much. I think her situation within Robb’s army is intriguing, being a source of tension between Robb and his bannermen, thereby making Talisa incredibly isolated. Even her horse is estranged from her. Like, cheesh guys, it’s probably really awkward for her negotiating all that tension.

    Exactly. Someone else wrote that she’s becoming a bit more of a reactive character, a supporting role there to illuminate Robb and Cat’s motivations. Which is fine as far as I’m concerned. This isn’t Danys, Tyrion, or even Tywin.

    My only complaints about some things this season, and last season too I suppose, have to do with budget-related not-enough-atmosphere-to-certain-scenes things. Like: I didn’t really dig the atmosphere of Theon’s scene. It felt kind of hurried and sloppy and confused, and why are they asking Theon why he attacked Winterfell? It just seems such an arbitrary question to torture someone about. I’m sure there are more intelligent, strategic questions they could have come up with. It might have even been better if they opened with Theon just alone in the room, and then get some pretty intense, detailed shots of him and the room, before the dudes come in to drill up his feet. It just felt kind of stale is all.

    It hasn’t been made apparent yet, of course, so I’ll put it in spoilers, though you seem like a book reader. They’re asking him why he attacked Winterfell because the answers don’t matter. They’re just fucking with him.

  484. jill
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    JOk so just had my second viewing and noticed what jojen said about his father not telling him about the rebellion, but having “seen” it. I wonder if this may become significant later, or if he only has partial information, fragmentated maybe

  485. pntrlqst
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink
  486. jill
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Ok so just had my second viewing and noticed what jojen said about his father not telling him about the rebellion, but having “seen” it. I wonder if this may become significant later, or if he only has partial information, fragmentated maybe

  487. Zack
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst:
    GRRM writing episode two of season four.

    http://grrm.livejournal.com/318880.html?thread=17545632#t17545632

    That seems as likely a spot for a Purple Wedding as I can imagine, so it fits my mental timeline pretty well. Excited!

  488. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    jill,

    The way-early (compared to the books) reveal of the details of the greenseeing definitely makes me think we’re being set up for something flashback-esque. Come on Tower of Joy!

  489. Morgan King
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Jem,

    I’m so pumped to see this twist on it play out! A great way to streamline the mind-games going on!

  490. ebevan91
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Zack: That seems as likely a spot for a Purple Wedding as I can imagine, so it fits my mental timeline pretty well. Excited!

    Hmm… he says season 4 will be mostly ASoS. They must really be stretching out the last 300 pages of that book.

  491. Lina
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    I don’t think she spends every moment of her life contemplating her relationship with Jon Snow, but in her darkest hour (finding out her father and most likely her sons are dead), she may recall what she believes to be her worst sins. People under duress can become completely irrational. So I can understand why the writers inserted that scene, and the emotional reasoning behind it. I’m not saying I agree with it (I even noted this in my first post in this thread), but I can understand the thought process.

    From a more analytical perspective, I think one could also argue that by thinking of Jon, she was perhaps transferring her guilt. She talks about Jon as a “motherless child,” which is what Bran/Rickon became when she left Winterfell. Had she been at home, maybe they would be safe and sound. It might be easier for her to accept that ill fortune has befallen her family because she angered the gods rather than because she made the choices to ride South and to arrest Tyrion. Both scenarios depend on her choices and actions, but when the gods are involved, she’s once removed from the cause. This is a really contextual, close reading of that scene and I’m not suggesting that’s what the show was going for. But I do enjoy when scenes offer us the chance to think this way and come up with multiple interpretations.

    In any event, I understand completely why some people wouldn’t like that scene. I think the one thing that we can all at least agree on is that Michelle Fairley acted it fantastically.

  492. MX
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    Bean,

    It’s interesting that people believe only cruelty is historically accurate. As a professional historian, I can tell you that there has also been a hardening of males in the last 500 years. If you look at medieval men, you can see it was completely acceptable for them (even for fierce warriors) to shed copious tears, wear pink clothing, feathers and pearl earrings or die from sorrow over lost love…In contrast, industrial-organized concentration camps are an invention of the 20th century, earlier types of violence were cruel and horrible, but did not have the aspect of total extermination (no, not even the Mongols).

    So, don’t be so quick to assume that women wouldn’t take care of the wounded on the battlefield (most medical care used to be provided by female herbalists; my own grandmother could work with herbs one day and slaughter a couple of piglets the next, and she also chopped wood while her husband — both of them as vile as any GoT character — drank) or that there was no jealousy in a multiple-wife household or among whores (thousands of Chinese women threatening to kill themselves by swallowing their jewelry if neglected by husbands or lovers, including brothel customers).

    It is completely plausible that a medieval man would be a softie about love, or that a prostitute/concubine would be jealous.

  493. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Alright! Despite some overt exposition dumps, I loved this episode.
    The Reeds were handled masterfully. Sangster and Kendrick are so promising thus far. Especially Sangster.
    BwB: I miss Lem as well but Kaye as Thoros is a delight. Loved how he utilizes the Rains of Castamere as his “A Hunting we will go”. Only he’s hunting Lions!
    Dame Rigg as Olenna: I tip my bowler hat to the Queen of Thorns.
    Cersei/ Joffrey/Margaery: Great scenes.
    Theon: not hating. We will see where it goes.
    Tyrion/Shae: Okay. Here’s my crackpot theory. Shae is playing the long game with Tyrion. Have you noticed that in every Tyrion/Shae scene it is our beloved Imp who caves to her affections? Tyrion has genuine feelings for her and she knows it. Her “jealous” moments are designed to wrap Tyrion around her little finger (pardon the pun). She has been Tywin’s spy from the get go. She will end up like book Shae only she has more of a personality than book Shae.
    Jaime/Brienne: good banter, they work well but I wanted a little more verve with the duel.
    House Bolton getting prominence!
    The “Scene”: everyone has their interpretations of every character and so do D & D. We don’t have to like every aspect of the show. People can post how they feel and argue as eloquently or ineloquently as they like. Doesn’t change my feelings to a particular scene. For those interested in my opinion I feel that D & D (in fact they have stated as much on the season 2 intro documentary) view Catelyn and Cersei as polar opposites. Cersei the ambitious Queen and mother and Catelyn the loyal wife/widow and mother. Some like this approach, others do not for valid reasons. As for this scene I really think it’s an explication of what Cat had actually said in the book about feeling she should pity Jon Snow but couldn’t. It’s not an alien thought my friends.

    Peace!

  494. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 8, 2013 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    I also want to throw my whole-hearted support in the notion that Joffrey’s custom crossbow will be confiscated by his grandfather at some point. Joffrey, Tywin’s vassal of his own brood holding the weapon (already set as phallic symbol by Margaery) that will eventually be used on his grandfather by the son he never wanted. Fucking brilliant showrunners.

  495. El Beto
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    For a guy who hates so many changes in the story, I actually liked this episode =)

  496. Butterbumps
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    Wow, what a mindbending theory! Kudos to you for making that connection. I wonder how many people will remember this particular Joff/Marg scene by the time the crossbow murder happens toward the end of Season 4. Brillian Cherkhov’s gun if it’s true!

  497. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Butterbumps,

    Thanks! I hope this is the case. Don’t forget the crossbow first appeared in season 2 episode 4 in a very controversial Joffrey bedroom scene! It’s perfect.

  498. WompWomp
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    Haha, what a bright red shade of optimism!

    Her S2 writing was hackneyed as anything, but nothing overly offensive about S3′s use of her so far. There are just minor quibbles like neither her nor Robb hearing Roose enter the room and their all too convenient discovery of Qyburn.

    To be fair, Robb’s arc in the show is almost entirely manufactured for the show. It was awesome how his achievements in the field were largely hearsay in the books, but no getting away with that in the series, especially if they want to flesh out the War of the Five Kings and give the RW its due weight without the benefit of all that internal exposition from the books. No idea why they had to replace the Westerlings and only include a confusing reference to their surrender as some bizarre tease, but it would seem they weren’t fond enough of Jeyne’s character to adapt her or make her their own creation.

  499. DH87
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Yellow Dog: Side note: I was extremely surprised that Gwendoline Christie’s name did NOT appear in the opening credits, given her prominence this year (she’ll most likely appear in every episode that Jaime does, and NCW has been bumped up to second billing after only Peter Dinklage).

    Christie was hired as a “guest star” last season and I believe she remains a “guest star” for this season. Although it sounds grand, it is a lesser billing than either “lead” or “regular.” “Leads” appear in order of importance (in terms of the Hollywood hierarchy) in the opening credits, followed by “regulars” in alphabetical order. “Guest stars” appear in the end credits, whether they appear in one episode or all ten. These billings are negotiated between the production and the agent representing the actor and are not reflective of “merit” or importance to the story.

  500. KG
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Visenya,

    No it isn’t. The show and books have stressed over and over again the importance of keeping to your oaths. If Catelyn believes she violated a holy oath, that is SERIOUS business.

  501. Bill Volk
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    My favorite line in the episode was Tyrion’s: “Is there an idiot in any village who trusts Littlefinger?” What a burn on Ned. Too soon?

  502. Abdul
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    that Catelyn scene was ok to me but went overkill when she said she wanted jon legitimized. also didnt like the fight scene between brienne and jamie, BECAUSE brienne made a fool of him! in the book even though jamie was weak from imprisonment and chained, the fight ended in a draw. thats why jamie is such an amazing fighter, and even brienne looks back on the fight thinking that! i know it doesn’t have to follow the book word for word, but would have preferred if it did for that scene..

  503. testure
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    Best episode yet in my humble onion, absolutely superb.

  504. The Rabbit
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 3:58 am | Permalink

    Loved it very much.

    It is true that whole episode had a feeling of an extention of Ep01 – but I guess it is something we should expect because of 1 million of characters in the show right now.
    Some great moments: Lady Olenna, Brienne & Jaime, fantastic acting by Michelle Fairley in that “scene”, bringing in the bits of the backstory with the Reeds – Thomas Sangster rules!

    Can not wait for the next one and the Tullys.

  505. zod
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:29 am | Permalink

    Bean,

    Can’t you see that they’re setting up Shae’s betrayal by making her jealous of Sansa? What do you think will happen when Tyrion will marry her?

    Shae will betray Tyrion because she’ll feel betray by him in the first place. A bit different than what happens in the books, but the betrayal will still be here.

    Oh, and hide your spoilers next time…

  506. June
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    My thoughts on the Tyrion/Shae scene and my first post so I hope the spoiler tag works.

    I think that scene was there to further re-enforce Shae’s new found protection of Sansa and to bring up the notion of potential suitors. They seem be replacing the Tyrell plot to marry Sansa to Willas with Littlefinger’s scheme which is fine with me (as long as he has another scheme up his sleeve). Shae will no doubt find out about it and tell Tyrion because she is wary of Littlefinger

    I also hope we get Acorn Hall but I doubt it – it would bring some welcome light relief

  507. Biscotti
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:00 am | Permalink

    I get the feeling show-Shae has some dark history, like she was abused as a child or was a former child slave or something. The way she is so protective of Sansa, and calling her a “child” to Tyrion.
    So I wonder if that helps turn her against him when he marries this child bride, perhaps she can’t believe that he doesn’t want it.

  508. Joey Fantana
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Bryon: funny that Shae is looking to save Sansa becuase of who Tyrion will be betrothed to soon.

    I’m a little worried they’re going to make Shae’s fate look a little more sympathetic than it should be. Or worse yet, they omit that little detail entirely…!

    Also wish they’d had the balls to deliver the boys’ ‘deaths’ to Robb and Cat. Her anguish isn’t anywhere near where it should be. Really feel the show has bottled it in that respect. Worried that they might do the same with Theon….

    Agree with the fight scene. Little slow, little tame.

    My only gripes. The show rocked otherwise.

  509. Dave from the other
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    Robin,

    Agreed, I thought the duel was terrible. Slow and clumsy with no hint at the level of swordplay these two should possess. I like everything else except the Cat monologue, seemed like a cheap segue to Jon’s part in the episode.

  510. Nic
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    8/10 for this episode. I gave episode a 6. Acting was better in the 2nd episode I thought, save for the Tyrion-Shae scene which was pretty mediocre.

    Double (or feature length) opening episode for season 4 please HBO.

  511. Nic
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    In the book Tyrion is ordered to marry Sansa, so I can’t understand why Shae would feel betrayed? Seems like a strange justification for her testimony at the trial IMO.

  512. David The Grey
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    Hollyoak: Patchy Face:
    Zack,
    How can we lobby for JG to get nominated for awards this year?He says he is not acting anymore after GoT.What a waste!

    I’ve heard this before. Do you know where this was first mentioned? Jack Gleeson is amazing in this show and it would be a loss to not see his talent again. He has never participated in the DVD commentary stuff has he? I don’t even recall seeing him on the red carpet during the huge season 3 promo blitz.

    I’m rewatching S2 with commentaries, and D&D mention this in the S2 Ep #1 commentary. JG will be pursuing academia instead of acting. I am curious if he enjoys his job on GoT, I would be terribly saddened if playing Joffrey had anything to do with that decision (vs. acting in general). I agree JG does an amazing job!

  513. Jillian
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    Morgan King:
    Reply

    I’m actually wondering if it might be a hint to something in the books, everyone is so excited to meet Howland Reed to learn what really happened at the Tower of Joy, but what if Jojen has already seen it, or Bran ends up able to. I guess I always just thought Howland Reed was going to end up being super important to the story, but now I think we could finish all books without meeting him.

  514. Nancy
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    I don’t disagree with that at all. But I can’t say that I feel sorry for Theon for having the Starks as “captors”. Theon may have not been a free man in the way he should have been and that was his father’s fault. If he was the hostage of another house, I think he would have been treated way worse. At least with the Starks he was trained like Robb and Jon and given the same educational opportunities that the Stark children received. Most hostages are not treated as well as Theon was by the Starks. I think in one of the season 2 commentaries (the Greyjoy Rebellion one) it’s mentioned that Ned agreed to take Theon in hopes of raising him to be a better man then his father.
    And I do agree that Theon is messed up in the head and has been. His is a tragic tale of a young man looking for a place to land and a place and people to call home. But the people and place that really were his home, was the people and place he sacked and ruined.
    Unfortunately, Theon’s mistakes cost him and a lot of people he cares about very much. He goes through horrors to realize the errors of his ways and to realize that Robb, for example, was more family to him then his own family. Theon’s story is one of the best stories of book 5…not the torture part…but his thoughts, feelings and reactions to world around him.
    Great conversation. I love reading the comments here and seeing the different points of view that are represented.
    As for Jack Gleeson, I thought I read somewhere as early as season 1 that he planned to stop acting after he was done with GoT. He’s been acting since he was a child and maybe he just wants a break. I don’t think it has anything to do with people’s reactions to Joffrey, he did say in a recent interview (I think on EW?) that he doesn’t get a lot of negative feedback from fans and they seem to be able to separate him from Joffrey.
    He could change his mind about acting once he is done with schooling though. Plenty of young actors have.

  515. mags giantsbabe
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    I for one love Ciaran an Mance. I’m happy that he was able to convey to Jon in a short dialogue scene, how complex the wildlings are culturally. However, I don’t think we’ll see him again after the Fist.

    Mckenzie brought a great angle to Orell. Very well-thought out and a sense of realism to one of the show’s “magical aspects”. Such a role could easily fall into silly witch doctor “seeing through minds of animals” crap. Also achieved with little screentime. We are also not sure if Jon is, in fact, “hiding” is own warging capability. Nicely played.

    I see more shrubbery beyond the Wall this season. I like.

    Now give us more Jon Snow. Kit needs (and deserves) more than giving intense facial expressions and being “the quiet guy” :)

  516. The Pointy End
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    My thoughts (on Shae) exactly. I’ve posted this above..and the strongest argument for it is that she ends up in Tywin’s bed out of the blue just like that. They could be altering it for the show, but I am glad I’m not the only one who sees it this way

  517. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    The actor who plays Jaime (Nicholas ?????,sorry can’t spell it off top of my head LOL) had some commentary on the HBO Go interactive features that that what was going on in Jaime’s head when she knocks him down. I totally agree that in book Jaime doesn’t see her as equal, but it appears on the show they’re playing it that way. At a minimum, we can agree that he finally has respect for her.

  518. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Nancy,

    “but his thoughts, feelings and reactions to world around him”

    Absolutely agree on this point. :)

  519. Fly-high-the-Wolf
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Damien,

    Well said! Hear, hear!

  520. Baelian
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    The Pain Yak,

    Book Shae was stupid. Show Shae being stupid wouldn’t lower any bars.

  521. Sareeta
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    - Love Thoros. Very different depiction than I had in mind, but I think I prefer the show version o_o
    - Jojen & Meera – I dig Jojen, though he doesn’t seem as “weak” as Meera makes him out to be. Meera I haven’t seen enough of to form an opinion. She reminds me a little of Arya or Yara, weirdly enough
    - More Bran and Arya would’ve been better than checking in on Jon Snow and Tyrion; if only because we didn’t get these kids at all last week
    - Where was Rickon? He was mentioned but I definitely didn’t see him…
    - Loved the Sansa and Margaery scenes
    - I’m ok with the Cat scene. I’m worried that they aren’t making her and Robb nearly important enough. They should both be given the Tyrion treatment and shown in every episode, otherwise RW will have little effect
    - Theon I though I could deal with the torture, but I’m afraid seeing it is worse than reading it in the books. Still, part of me hopes they go as far as they did in the books—i.e., flaying, etc. because it makes his character development in Book 5 much more impactful
    - Loved The Hound meeting Arya, though I’m surprised he recognized her immediately, yet Tywin (and so many others) didn’t?

  522. Bean
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    MX,

    Sure, but it’s not interesting. Martin’s characters are grey, and their motivations flawed and imperfect. Shae/Tyrion in this TV series are a more simply cast.

  523. Bean
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    zod,

    I thought the spoiler hiding was automatic. my bad.

    But of course I can see that, it’s bloody obvious, which is why it sucks. It’s also not remotely believable.

  524. Morgan King
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Jillian,

    I can’t imagine that the next couple of books won’t solve the Jon Snow’s mom mystery by using Bran’s greenseeing, and there’s so much room for pertinent Rebellion-era scenes to pop up in both the show and the books through that awesome part of the mythology.

  525. ewanthot
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    Victoria:
    Shannon,

    I loved absolutely everything about Jojen and Meera

    This.

  526. blatz
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Damien,

    Well said Damien. It was a fantastic scene.

  527. Mikken's Mark
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    My lords, I know I am late to comment but I have questions concerning Lady Stark’s controversial scene. I have failed to read the majority of the comments posted above but did anyone see the monologue as more than foreshadowing her fate at the RW? I personally did not enjoy the scene, I felt they could have filled those minutes differently. However, when I consider the purpose of the scene I think of Lady Stark later down the line (and river) as Lady Stoneheart. Do you think Cats monologue has relation to her afterlife powers? (example: she wished jon would die; he got sick, she prayed for life; he lived)

    Mikken’s Mark

  528. Lux
    Posted April 11, 2013 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Sareeta,

    re the Hound: well not counting LF (did he recognize her? Was he telling the truth to Sansa last ep, or lying like he lied to Cat?), Tywin hasn’t really laid eyes on Arya that many times before did he? Whereas the Hound went to WF, saw her all the way back to KL, and become quite ahem attached to her older sister.. so not that surprising that he would be the one to recognize her..

  529. Penny
    Posted April 11, 2013 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Things I liked:
    1. Margaery & Joffrey scene – I enjoyed this scene the most. Natalie Dormer deserved a standing ovation after that. I was anxious about the decision to flesh out Margaery’s character, but it’s paying off. Joff’s reactions were so unpredictable!

    2. Tyrion & Shae – You guys, I have a theory about why this was written. TV Shae seems to be sincere about Tyrion, as opposed to book Shae, who kept readers guessing until the end. But this change begs the question of how or why Shae would betray Tyrion later. Tyrion ends up marrying Sansa, and by showing that Shae is jealous, the show gives her a basis for turning against him.

    3. Brienne & Jaime – enough said!

    Things I didn’t like: Too short.

  530. kons
    Posted April 11, 2013 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    I felt that Jamie got robbed on his fighting scene. He’s supposed to be amazing and loses almost by luck in the books despite him being chained and starved. In the episode Brenner basically dominates the fight. Considering that in the later books she reminisces about how hard that fight was for her, the way it was handled in the show was extremely disappointing to me.

    The tyron scene was a waste of screen time on my opinion.

    Loved the QoT and how Margaerly is taking control of Jeff.

    Really liked Jojen. Very much as I imagined him. Overall I was the most disappointed by the lackluster fight scene and the wasted scene with tyrion.

  531. Ned
    Posted April 12, 2013 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    The way Margaery manipulated Joffrey was fantastic. I’m really looking forward to the show expanding her character in a way that was implied but never properly shown by GRRM, especially since she plays such an important role in the goings on of Westeros. I think the Catelyn dialogue was excellent and refreshing – Michelle Fairley was fantastic as always, and it added a new layer to the Cat-Jon relationship, although I wish they’d just get to Riverrun already – I’m missing me some Blackfish. Jojen and Meera were great, especially the former, and I loved the little bit of exposition about Howland Reed (one of my most anticipated yet-to-see characters in the books). The Queen of Thorns was exactly what you’d expect from a heavyweight like Diana Rigg, Bond’s old flame, and I loved how casually she and Margaery accepted that Joffrey was, to quote, a “monster”. I’m also liking Sansa a lot more this season – in her interactions with Littlefinger and Shae especially, she has finally started to grow a bit of a personality. Tyrion and Shae, meanwhile, was fine – I felt it ate up time that could have been allocated elsewhere, but was nevertheless fun and playful, as you would except from them.

    I’ve never loved Emilia Clarke as Daenerys, so her absence wasn’t much of a disappointment for me (although I quite like Iain Glen as “The Bear”, my second favorite character of the series, both books and show). Theon’s bit was short but provokes a lot of interest – it seems they’ve saved the Reek switcharoo for this season, something I don’t mind at all (though it does seem to me that they’re rushing in to things a bit – but it’s for the show writers to prove me wrong on that). Maisie Williams is just as perfect and non-chalant as Arya as she ever has been (the best young actor in the series if you ask me), and while I did like Thoros and Anguy, I would have liked a few more Brotherhood faces to have shown up (Tom and Lem, for instance).

    Personally, I’ve been kinda disappointed with events beyond the Wall thus far. Jon’s conversation with Mance was cut way too short for my liking, and call me a purist, but the switch to Jon’s “Craster and his babies” explanation didn’t take with me. I’d also like to have seen more of the members of Mance’s “court” show up – Val, Dalla and the Magnar, mostly (although it seems that Tormund has been relatively well cast). Furthermore, the reduction of the Battle at the Fist of the First Men to a few noises at the beginning of the season premiere irked me – I understand that these things are difficult for budgetary reasons, but if they could manage all those zombies and White Walkers in the season two finale, they probably could have managed a minute or two of them fighting the Night’s Watch (maybe even some undead polar bear action). Nevertheless, this episode seemed to handle things better, both with Jon and Sam, and I’m optimistic that they can improve.

    The only thing that particularly irked me was the end of the episode. The interplay between Jaime and Brienne up to that point was fantastic – Nikolaj and Gwendoline are two of those actors just MADE for the roles their in. I particularly liked when Jaime was taunting Brienne about Renly’s homosexuality, and when she got upset, he apologized: “I don’t blame him. We don’t get to choose who we fall in love with”. Almost makes him sound guilty for his relationship with Cersei, something that you never really got in the books. The sword fight at the end, however, was probably some of the weakest dueling thus far in the series – I understand that Jaime was supposed to be rusty, but both of them seemed to lumber along in a way that isn’t characteristic of either of them (judging from Jaime’s duel with Ned and Brienne’s slaughter of the three northmen, as well as Renly’s guards – quick as a snake). Also, Locke – not impressed. I get the complaints about Vargo Hoat’s lisp, and how that might be construed as offensive, but Hoat and his Bloody Mummers were those kind of colorful villains that added texture to GRRM’s books, and their absence bothers me a bit.

    All things considered, fabulous episode – really looking forward to how this season comes together.

  532. Joe
    Posted April 12, 2013 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Great episode, but the one thing that bothered me was they seemed to underplay Jamie’s prowess. In the book you have his thoughts about being in the dungeon so long, be weak/thin, etc. to explain his troubles with Brienne. He was manacled, but it wasn’t really made mention of. They made Brienne dispatch him with relative ease.

    Jamie is one of the most feared fighters in Westeros and they seem to have underplayed this which is an important mechanism to fully understand his sense of loss when he loses his sword hand.

  1. [...] note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask all the series veterans to refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or [...]


  • Recent Comments

  • Archives

    • 2014 (983)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •