Game of Owns: Cat Started the War
By Hear Me Roar on in Podcast.

Game of Owns bring us the discussion of the second episode of the season, their ranks bolstered by our own Fury. Have fun!

Episode 81 - Cat Started the War

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Description: Game of Owns is back with their week two conversationing of HBO’s Game of Thrones Season 3. Sue joins the cast this week as the boys look into this new episode in which first time introductions for the season are made, old time friends are finally met, and a brand new arch of story could shake its very foundation.

 

 

Discussion Topics

Eric’s new love
Comparing the two episodes
Meeting Thoros
Jojen Reed, cheat codes
Theon’s pleasurefest
#freetheon
Two ravens, no treasure maps
Condensing things
Heavy handed content
Sansa and the Tyrells
Cersei and Joff
Catelyn’s strange confession
Rob lost the war
Fights on a bridge
Tyrion, Shae, and jealousy
Sam gets tired
The Hound appears
Owns of the Week
Reading your Tweets


63 Comments

  1. Miss
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    My transmission dropped out on the highway today. Too bad Catelyn Stark didn’t love Jon Snow. (For you, Sue.)

  2. WildSeed
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 3:52 am | Permalink

    Some people consider that it was Littlefinger and Lila Tully-Aryn. Nah,
    it’s goes back much further than that, right? Bank of Braavos ?

  3. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    need more retweet recaps….

  4. Lisa
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    Regarding the Catelyn confession, in the books she has an internal dialogue that is similar to this show confession when she’s first climbing to the Eyrie with Mya Stone. It’s not exactly the same, but she does ruminate on bastards and specifically her relationship with Jon Snow. While the way the show created the confession scene was quite jarring because so much of what we know about Cat happens in her head, it wasn’t completely unfounded.

  5. Stephen Bosco
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Thing that bugs me about the Robb storyline is that he has no strong male warrior allies. It just seems like he is completely alone. In the book he had lots of loyal followers, but in the tv show there is no one at the mo. Roose and Karstark do not seem loyal at all. Shame they lost the Greatjon actor. I think the later events will have less impact because of this as it’s becoming too obvious.

  6. barak
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    Stephen Bosco,

    I think the “no allies” thing is exactly what the writers are emphasizing. Since the last third of S2 Robb has been caught in a downward spiral: he’s been stabbed in the back by Theon, his mother has let Jaime go, his siblings are not safe, he’s being outmaneuvered in the war he’s waging, he’s not getting any closer to his goal, his troops are frustrated and his bannermen are getting fed up with everything. We can assume he still has followers who believe in him, but the show wants to emphasize the strength of the voices of dissent and dissatisfaction. (This is why he’s so invested in Talisa, because right now his relationship with her is pretty much the only thing that’s going well in his life.)

  7. Red Viper
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who is getting annoyed that there is no consistency in the pronunciation of ‘ TYRELL ‘ throughout the show…including members of the Tyrell family itself?

    Surely this is something the showrunners should have rectified early on.

  8. Ser Pounce-a-Lot
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    Red Viper,

    You are not. there are other points of confusion with regards to pronunciation (though I’m drawing a blank at the moment), but the tyrell thing is ridiculous. I personally am loving the shit out of the show right now. I barely bat an eye at most changes to canon, but when they expect non readers to keep track of so many names they should at least agree on what the names sound like!

  9. Team Sansa
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce-a-Lot,

    My latest favorite inconsistency is the way that Margaery (Dormer) pronounces her grandma’s name two different ways in back-to-back clips in the new character footage clip. Figure it out, people!

  10. ASOIAF Fan
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    To excuse Lysa, i’d say Holster’s treatment of her pregnancy could share the blame as a starting point (for those putting the blame on her), after all she really loved Littlefinger and must have grown only ressentment for her new husband after this episode .

  11. blackfish
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    I lolled so hard when you were talking about the hound’s capture, and you said: You would need a masterball! Man that was epic

  12. Kalamies
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    I think it was Lysa Arryn. She poisoned Jon Arryn, and that lead King Robert to appoint Ned Stark as Hand of the King. And we all know what happened afterwards.

  13. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    HE SACKED AND BURNED RIVENDELL!!!!

    Classic unintentional comedy moment right there. Btw, Osha is so hostile because she’s suspicious of the dark magic that’s going on. She knows about it but is running away from it. That’s why she was by Winterfell in the first place.

  14. sunspear
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Can’t listen to the clip here, but to respond to some of comments on here:

    The issue with blaming Catelyn for the start of the war is that even when you accept the fact Littlefinger killed Jon Arryn and blamed Tyrion, both he and Ned specifically told Catelyn that they didn’t have any evidence and needed to wait. So you really can’t blame Tyrion’s kidnapping/arrest on anyone but her.

  15. WompWomp
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Stephen Bosco,

    I too lament the loss of the Greatjon. -_-

    Red Viper,

    The same goes for “Myrcella” and “Maester,” though at least the latter can be attributed to regional dialects.

    Kalamies,

    And we all know who gave her the means and the notion.

  16. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    On Cat: I think it’s fairly clear why they put this in from a book readers point of view. But even from a character point of view – we know Catelyn is illogical and emotional, so what she was saying was in keeping with her personality to an extent. It wasn’t a great scene but I don’t think it was as out of character as you guys made it sound. In terms of its significance for future episodes:

    Jon will decide to legitimise Jon Snow when he hears news that Bran and Rickon are dead. Catelyn will use this opportunity to support that decision and it will be seen as a redemptive arc for her and the banishing of her demons – to some extent.

  17. Zack
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Red Viper,

    You are aware, for example, that different regions of America have different regional accents and they pronounce words (some of which are names) differently. And then with a number of additional British dialects, and Spanish, Italian…words are not all pronounced the same in the real world. It can’t truly be that shocking on TV. (And my father has odd regional pronunciation quirks for many words that I consciously made a decision not to pick up. Families are not a guarantee of similar pronunciation because we’ve often spent our time in quite different places.)

  18. WompWomp
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    But within a family raised in the same region?

    “C’MONNNNNNNN!” -Gob Bluth

  19. Zack
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I just don’t think a slight stressing of one syllable over another is that odd. Who’s to say the pronunciation doesn’t waver for an individual based upon how focused they are on pronouncing something “correctly” or not, or to whom they’re speaking (I do both of these, sometimes unconsciously).

    (Also, May 26! :D)

  20. Adria
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    Red Viper,

    I have noticed it and find it a bit annoying, but I seen this sort of thing in many, many tv series. When I first noticed it many years ago I wondered why they couldn’t get the actors to use the same pronunciation, but after seeing it in so many varied series I figure there’s some reason why it’s too hard to do or it just rates very low on the list of stuff that needs to get done when producing a weekly series. IDK.

  21. Scott Glennon
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Miss,

    This is gonna be a meme now isn’t it? “I took an arrow to the knee, it’s too bad Catelyn Stark didn’t love Jon Snow.” They’re gonna print T-shirts… lol

    For Winterfell!

  22. spacechampion
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t like that Ygritte says to Jon Snow “What, you never met a warg before?” That’s like saying, “What you never met an astronaut before?” Few people do. Wargs are like 1 in 1000 in the population. Greenseers are 1 in 1000 Wargs. And it’s not like they are equally spaced through the world. So shut up Ygritte, YOU KNOW NOTHING!

  23. Zack
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    spacechampion,

    On the other hand, what’s with so many of the Stark children showing warg potential?

    Bran, Jon, Arya all have some experience with it…remember Arya as Nymeria pulling dead Catelyn out of the river…

  24. Rachel
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Yea all that about, “he was a motherless child” was just ridiculous. The mentality breaks down to:

    Jon Snow needed a mother.
    Catelyn is an object who should fulfill that need.
    Therefore Catelyn is morally responsible for… insert whatever you want here.

    It’s sexist nonsense. I understand why Jon blames Cat. He is just looking for a mother, and he’s lashing out emotionally. But if you could relate to Cat as a human being, you might see her side as well (as GRRM did). Would you be cool with having a child put in your lap that wasn’t your child, that you had no part in bringing into the world. Then someone saying, “You’re living with this child forever, and you have no choice. You have to take care of it.” Would you automatically love that child? That’s such a ridiculous thing to ask.

  25. Mr sharpy knife
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 2:51 pm | Permalink
  26. Lars
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    This Cat scene outrage is so ridiculous… C’mon, I expected better from you , Sue. (and everyone else)

    Just because one character thinks there might be some “karma” involved DOES NOT mean that this is the actual case, or that the show endorses this view.

    And as far as it being “made up”… NEWSFLASH: This is all fiction. Made up. Not real. The books are not “holy scripture”. Just deal with it.

    I really liked the scene.

  27. pntrlqst
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Osha is not trustful probably because Maester Luwin told her not to trust anyone.

    She’ll probably grow to trust them as the season goes on. It’s called development.

  28. Lars
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    As for why Ros was immediately recalled by Tyrion… Remember that he also interacted with her in season 2, as Ros was captured by Cersei. (thought to be Shae)

    So Tyrion has interacted with her in both previous seasons.

  29. Andrew
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Rachel,

    If Catelyn had a bastard and Ned stayed with her, but didn’t treat the child like a son, we’d be calling him a dick too. She’s not an object to fulfill that need, she’s Ned’s wife. It’s a pretty normal thing for someone to treat the child of their spouse, even if it’s not their own child, with love. The difference here is the infidelity, but it has nothing to do with sexism.

  30. pntrlqst
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    P.S. Why do you have the guy who hasn’t read the books reading the tweets? Someone is bound to spoil him…

  31. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    spacechampion:
    I didn’t like that Ygritte says to Jon Snow “What, you never met a warg before?”That’s like saying, “What you never met an astronaut before?”Few people do.Wargs are like 1 in 1000 in the population.Greenseers are 1 in 1000 Wargs.And it’s not like they are equally spaced through the world. So shut up Ygritte, YOU KNOW NOTHING!

    1 in 1000 seems a lot…how many wargs are there in Mance’s army? I though it would be more like 1 in 10000

  32. Zack
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Rachel: Would you automatically love that child? That’s such a ridiculous thing to ask.

    But to heap scorn on an innocent, make every attempt to ensure his constant awareness that he doesn’t belong, through no fault of his own? It’s emotionally immature. If Ned did the crime, Ned deserves the bile.

    I liked the scene because it showed Cat recognizing that weakness within herself, that she couldn’t be good enough to do right by the kid. It’s admirable to understand one’s own flaws, even if one isn’t able to correct them.

  33. zaprowsdower
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Exactly. I don’t share the vitriol for her that a lot of fans have but her treatment of Jon Snow is totally ridiculous.

  34. Zack
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    zaprowsdower,

    I know that seeing Jon every day, raised among her own children, would have to sting a bit, because he’s the physical embodiment of her husband’s supposed infidelity. I understand why she feels the way she does, but it doesn’t really excuse her actions. I love GRRM’s characters, and she’s no exception. The good people have pretty glaring character flaws, and the ‘bad’ people are often consumed by guilt. I don’t know why anyone would hate Cat. We’re all flawed.

  35. WildSeed
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    ASOIAF Fan:
    WildSeed,

    To excuse Lysa, i’d say Holster’s treatment of her pregnancy could share the blame as a starting point (for those putting the blame on her), after all she really loved Littlefinger and must have grown only ressentment for her new husband after this episode .

    Yes, that does factor in too, there’s no end to the relevant factors within ASOIAF
    that reflect any given outcome. Frustrating !! Reminds me of beginning a
    restoration project and discovering major issues along the way, causing enough
    alarm to gut and replace everything. Many readers and officianados reason that
    war was inevitable, given the conditions and environment. Any small factor
    could have set this off. The fact that king Robert Baratheon held a negotiated
    peace for 15 years was remarkable, given the opposing political factions.

    So, which came first, the chicken or the egg ? (:

  36. Visenya
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think anyone is excusing Catelyn’s treatment of Jon Snow. But it is ridiculous to reduce her entire character to “oMG she was so mean to Jon Snow!!1.” That’s what people are talking about when they say HBO’s treatment of Cat is sexist . She is so much more than someone who disapproved of Jon. It’s just baffling that HBO would choose to frame her entire characterization around a relationship both Cat and Jon would consider peripheral. Sure, she’s a mother to her kids but why would her refusal to parent EVERY kid lead her to believe she’s cursed?

    It is sexist to define an entire character around the fact that she has children. Sure, Catelyn considers motherhood a very important aspect of her life and personality but it is by no means the ONLY aspect.

  37. Rachel
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    The difference between the modern step family and Cat’s situation is that Cat doesn’t have a choice (and neither does Ned). If you choose to mother someone else’s children, that’s different and you have a responsibility to follow through with that choice. If you’re forced to have a child in your life against your will through no action or fault of your own, the situation is a bit different so you can’t really draw the comparison.

  38. Lars
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Visenya:
    I don’t think anyone is excusing Catelyn’s treatment of Jon Snow. But it is ridiculous to reduce her entire character to “oMG she was so mean to Jon Snow!!1.” That’s what people are talking about when they say HBO’s treatment of Cat is sexist . She is so much more than someone who disapproved of Jon. It’s just baffling that HBO would choose to frame her entire characterization around a relationship both Cat and Jon would consider peripheral.

    Yet even before the show, that relationship with Jon is EXACTLY why so many book-readers despise her character. The show really isn’t that far off from the books. Not really.

    (And the show even got crap for not including the over-the-top “it should have been you” speech)

  39. Corbomite
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    You, and people in general, forget the fact that her hand was forced when Tyrion spotted her at the inn. Her entire trip to King’s Landing had to be kept a secret since it would tip the Lannisters off to the fact that the Stark’s were investigating them. Once her cover was blown the conflict was inevitable; taking Tyrion at the time was her only hope of starting things off with a Stark advantage.

  40. Corbomite
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Lars: Yet even before the show, that relationship with Jon is EXACTLY why so many book-readers despise her character. The show really isn’t that far off from the books. Not really.

    (And the show even got crap for not including the over-the-top “it should have been you” speech)

    Well put, both Lars & Visenya.

  41. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Visenya: I don’t think anyone is excusing Catelyn’s treatment of Jon Snow. But it is ridiculous to reduce her entire character to “oMG she was so mean to Jon Snow!!1.” That’s what people are talking about when they say HBO’s treatment of Cat is sexist . She is so much more than someone who disapproved of Jon. It’s just baffling that HBO would choose to frame her entire characterization around a relationship both Cat and Jon would consider peripheral. Sure, she’s a mother to her kids but why would her refusal to parent EVERY kid lead her to believe she’s cursed?

    It is sexist to define an entire character around the fact that she has children. Sure, Catelyn considers motherhood a very important aspect of her life and personality but it is by no means the ONLY aspect.

    All of this.
    Having Catelyn think she is the worst person in the world for not loving this kid and for resenting his presence reinforces the lame idea that women are obligated to mother and love any kid dropped in their lap. It’s ridiculous. Even when you set aside the thing about it being a change from the book, there’s the simple fact that it’s so sexist to force this role and expectation on women. Martin understood that. I don’t think Benioff and Weiss do.

  42. WildSeed
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    In order to have ( ASOIAF ) Catelyn become more interesting than the dutiful, family
    oriented and honorable person that she was, GRRM sprinkled her with spite as
    her character flaw to season her. I enjoy all the characters for there flaws and strengths

    The whole is more than the sum of it’s parts.

  43. Lars
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: All of this.
    Having Catelyn think she is the worst person in the world for not loving this kid and for resenting his presence reinforces the lame idea that women are obligated to mother and love any kid dropped in their lap. It’s ridiculous. Even when you set aside the thing about it being a change from the book, there’s the simple fact that it’s so sexist to force this role and expectation on women. Martin understood that.I don’t think Benioff and Weiss do.

    If that is why you dislike the scene, I think you are misunderstanding it.

    Her regret (in the scene) is that she in a moment of weakness promised that gods that she would love the child as her own IF it survived – and then she went back on her promise. And this eats at her… And she feels karmic-ally punished for it.

    This is different from saying that it was her duty. Or that she is a bad parent/mother. It is just saying that she feels bad for thinking she could trick the gods.

    Nevertheless, the distance between her in the show and in the book is not as great as you make it out. The idea that her character is defined by her (lack of?) relationship to Jon Snow is just as central – if not more – amongst book fans.

  44. Independent George
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    I blame Cat for her bad decision-making, but not for her treatment of Jon Snow. I liked her monologue because it’s a nice window into a guilt-ridden mind, not because it’s accurate or well-reasoned (that kind of guilt is seldom rational or reasonable). I dislike the monologue because it draws attention away from the very real culpability for her decisionmaking only to focus on the emotional guilt over Jon.

  45. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Lars,

    No, I understood it perfectly, thanks. Cat is blaming herself for everything that’s happened, because she could not love a motherless child (and thus broke the promise). This is an idea that the show writers have inserted that depicts her as hating on herself and blaming herself for everything because of this lack of love and promise-breaking.

    The difference between the strong-minded, politically aware and occasionally ambitious woman of the books is quite different than the show’s Cat who is solely defined by her need to be with her kids. Her lack of relationship to Jon is not a huge thing in the books at all, except for when she lashes out at him when Bran’s hurt, and when she is discussing with Robb the will and the possibility of Jon inheriting.

  46. Lars
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    Lars,

    No, I understood it perfectly, thanks. Cat is blaming herself for everything that’s happened, because she could not love a motherless child (and thus broke the promise). This is an idea that the show writers have inserted that depicts her as hating on herself and blaming herself for everything because of this lack of love and promise-breaking.

    Even if I follow your all of your logical steps (which I don’t) – Surely it matters that this scene occurs during her greatest emotional duress – thinking that Bran and Rickon are dead? She is in grief – not thinking clearly. This is not something that Show-Cat appears to be thinking about constantly. Otherwise she would have treated Jon differently, correct?

  47. sunspear
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Corbomite,

    Except, you know, she didn’t have to arrest Tyrion. So what if the Lannister’s know she was investigating them? It beats starting an instant war in the riverlands.

  48. Visenya
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    It was Tywin who overreacted and sent Gregor Clegane to ravage the Riverlands, not Catelyn. Catelyn was trying to exact justice from the Lannisters for attempting to kill her son (and, y’know, the Lannisters DID push Bran). Tywin made the first military move of the war.

    Why is it within Tywin’s rights to pillage the Riverlands and kill hundreds of innocent people but not within Catelyn’s to prosecute the family (which is in fact guilty) that tried to kill her son? Like, how is Tywin’s reaction totally reasonable while Catelyn’s is irrational and stupid?

  49. sunspear
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    Because 1. Catelyn had zero evidence and she knew it, so she had no right to capture tyrion, 2. She started the war by that action, and 3. Tywin was in his rights to respond.

  50. Kris
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    There was definitely a scene in the book where Catelyn felt guilty about Jon Snow- I am positive

  51. Visenya
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    If you truly believe trying to bring someone who may have killed your son to justice is inexcusable but sending a homicidal maniac to murder innocent people is reasonable, I really don’t know what to tell you.

    EDIT: If Catelyn was acting from an emotional place by arresting Tyrion without evidence (which I concede she was), so was Tywin when he escalated the situation by starting a whole war. Don’t use a double standard when judging characters’ irrationality.
    ALSO – the war doesn’t begin with Cat. Do you really think Littlefinger told her the dagger belonged to Tyrion as a joke? No way. He was deliberately trying to create conflict between the Starks and Lannisters. If you’re going to make “who started the war” accusations, you have to read in to the story deeper than you have.

  52. sunspear
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    Attacking innocent villages is how wars are fought, both in this universe and ours until recently.

    I am not using a double standard. Tywin had evidence, catelyn did not.

    Little finger told her they could not act because they had no evidence. Not his fault she didn’t listen.

  53. Visenya
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    How is it reasonable to start a war over what chalks up to no more than a bruised ego? And what about Tyrion? Catelyn didn’t even want to acknowledge him until he called her out.

    It’s ridiculous that in a story full of murderers and ruthless politicians, the person you think is to blame for everything is the woman who was manipulated into arresting the man she believed tried to kill her son. I’m not denying she played a significant role in the events leading up to the war. But the notion that the war would never have occurred if not for Catelyn is nonsense and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the political nuances and, quite frankly, basic plot of the story.

  54. The Bloodraven
    Posted April 9, 2013 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    It seems like a pretty natural thing to me for someone to be questioning their past choices during moments of extreme grief or distress. I think we just need to wait and see how Catelyn acts in later episodes.

  55. Andrew
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I think you’re putting too much emphasis on the not loving Jon and not enough on the promise to the gods. Let’s forget for a moment what the promise was, and just think about it like this: She’s obviously quite religious, and she made a promise to the gods. She broke that promise. Now, her daughters are hostages, her sons are missing and possibly dead, her home has been destroyed, and her father and husband are both dead. I think it’s extremely reasonable to assume she might mentally make the connection between her broken promise to the gods and the horribleness that has befallen her family.

    D&D are not saying it’s her fault. D&D are not saying all women need to care for children. D&D are not sexist, as much as many people like to think they are. D&D are saying that Catelyn feels responsible. Having a character think something doesn’t make it true.

  56. Jon Sand
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 3:24 am | Permalink

    About Thoros sword skills. The Hands Tournament on the TV-show, only had the jousting part, won by Loras Tyrell. But in the book, there are three contests. Jousting, Swordplay and Bow. And Thoros of Myr won the the Swordplay. Just a thing to keep in mind.

  57. sunspear
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Visenya,

    How is it reasonable to start a war over what chalks up to no more than a bruised ego?

    Kidnapping is not a bruised ego. It’s a straight up attack on your family.

    And what about Tyrion? Catelyn didn’t even want to acknowledge him until he called her out.

    I’m not sure what this means, but it sounds like your blaming Tyrion for not being able to talk Catelyn out of kidnapping him.

    I’m not denying she played a significant role in the events leading up to the war.

    Good. Then you agree with me.

  58. The Bloodraven
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    This quote is from chapter 34 of A Game of Thrones: “Catelyn had nothing against
    this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.”

  59. jasonw
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    listening to the episode now, I really dont understand the Cat drama. Cat in the book wished terrible things done to Jon, she hates Jon. we all agree. But there is a HUGE difference between wishing something bad on someone and being happy when they are dying. Especially a child, a child who your husband cares a great deal for it changes everything if you are watching them die.

    I really dont understand, i have read the books lots of times its not a big deal she sat with jon, or in some crazy way think she caused his sickness Now thinking that caused the war….dumb. Not wondering what would have happened if she did not capture Tyrion….dumb

    Should the scene been about Bran and Rickon yes but that would not have led into that TRANSITION (tobuscus voice)

    I think Cersei would have been over joyed to sit and watch one of Roberts bastards die, hell he had 2 of them killed in Lannisport. But Cat is not that woman

  60. Red Viper
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Yes, but I’m sure everyone in your family still pronounces your last name the same way. Especially if you all live together like the Tyrells do. Olenna may be a Redwyne but she’s been a Tyrell for so long I expect her to know how to pronounce the name.

    I don’t mind regional pronunciations like Maesters being called Master by some people. As long as everyone who hails from the same region calls it the same thing. Jaime can call them Tie-rell but then I expect Cersei and Tyrion and Tywin to also call them Tie-rell which they do not.

  61. MX
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Thinking that Cat caused the war is just plain crazy — but it’s a variation off the “It’s all the fault of Talisa” school.

    The Seven Kingdoms thrive on war, and they produce the kind of men who want to kill and destroy, as well as the kind of women who plot incessantly. Periodic chaos is inherent to that kind of society.

    Funnily, this forum seems to dislike women who are less good at plotting. In general, hatred is dumped upon those perceived as too kindhearted (last season it was Daenerys/Talisa/Jon, this season it seems to be Cat’s turn).

    Also, what gets on my nerves is the persistent ganging up — one or two people will declare at the start that the whole show is ruined because of ONE scene that they saw in the last episode, and others will join them, creating a meme and collectively fuming in anger instead of enjoying themselves and speculating playfully about what might happen next. Are those the same people who love torture scenes and dislike the sex, I wonder?

  62. Zack
    Posted April 11, 2013 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Red Viper,

    That’s fair enough. I’d just like to add that it’s certainly not the case 100% of the time that family members all pronounce their names the same way. (To be fair, this is most often the case for situations like a German who’s a fourth generation American, or something like that, and doesn’t speak the language)

    I excuse situations like the show’s example based on personal experiences, how I’ll slip into habits of pronouncing things in the manner used by friends/acquaintences when we’re hanging out. Accents change based on company sometimes.

    Plus I just like hearing the ‘TY-rell” because it sounds ‘correct’ to my ear. So I excuse it. It’s certainly fair to ask for consistency if these things bother you though. Nothing wrong with it.

  63. Luana
    Posted April 11, 2013 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Corbomite,

    Except, you know, she didn’t have to arrest Tyrion. So what if the Lannister’s know she was investigating them? It beats starting an instant war in the riverlands.

    To spell it out for you, sunspear, Cat did have to arrest Tyrion. Based on what she knew at the time, and the evidence she had to work with, it was absolutely the correct decision.

    Cat believed that the Lannisters were responsible for Jon Arryn’s murder as well as the attempted murder of Bran. When Cat met Tyrion at the Inn, she tried to hide her identity from him, but Tyrion recognized her. At this point, she had no choice but to arrest him. She knows Tyrion is not a stupid man and that he would work out why she’s travelled to Kings Landing so soon after the attack on Bran. Tyrion would realize that the only reason for Cat travelling incognito between Winterfell and Kings Landing was that the Starks had uncovered the Lannister plot to attack the strongest Baratheon allies, Arryn and Stark.

    Cat has two daughters and a husband at Kings Landing, fully in the power of the Lannisters, that she needs to defend. The only way she can defend her family is to take Tyrion hostage, to prevent him from taking the news to Kings Landing that the Starks were on to their plot. If she’d let Tyrion go, based on the information she had, her daughters and husband would be as good as dead. But by arresting Tyrion for the attempted murder of her son, she at least has a Lannister hostage to help guarantee the safety of Sansa, Arya, and Ned.

    While Cat’s logic in arresting Tyrion is flawless, it is based on false premises planted by Littlefinger. So if you feel you must pin the cause of the war on one person, it’s pretty obviously Littlefinger.


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