Episode 25 – Kissed By Fire – Recap
By Winter Is Coming on in Recap.

Tywin Lannister

Episode five is in the books and we are halfway through the third season of Game of Thrones. Head after the break to read my thoughts on tonight’s episode!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Storm of Swords. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ASoS yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book reader recap. Thanks!

Episode summary coming later…

What I Liked

The Duel in the Cave – What a way to open an episode! That was easily the best fight scene the show has done since Drogo ripped out Mago’s throat. Just totally badass. And that ending? Awesome. Even though I knew it was coming, I let out an ‘Oh snap!” when Beric came back to life.
The “Duel” in the Cave – Ygritte doesn’t waste time, does she? I know this was a scene many were looking forward to, for various reasons, and I felt that they did a good job with it. Plus we got another ‘You know nothing, Jon Snow!’ Although clearly he knew at least one thing…
Jaime’s Confession – Jaime’s monologue was quite possibly my favorite monologue in a show that has more than its fair share. You could see Brienne’s impression of Jaime change as he told his “side of things” and I imagine this may be a turning point for many new viewers as well. Fantastic bit of writing there by Cogman and stellar acting by Nikolaj Coster-Waldau. Jaime’s journey this season is such a powerful arc in the book and, so far, they are nailing it.
Jorah and Barristan – Interesting bit of contrast between Jaime’s confession and Barristan’s remark that you need to always serve your King, whether he is drunk or a lunatic. I wonder what Barristan would have done if he was in Jaime’s shoes? But this whole conversation was fun, with Jorah and Barristan sharing old war stories and talking about days past, as it is something we never got to see in the book. I also liked the way Jorah was fishing for any info Barristan may have had about him.
Shireen – Poor Shireen. What a great job by Kerry Ingram, making Shireen into the sweet little girl from the books. I wonder when they will explain the greyscale for the benefits of the newbies?
Karstark’s Betrayal – This sequence never really resonated with me in the book, despite Robb being one of my favorite characters, but I thought it was really well done here. I especially liked the, what I hope was intentional, contrast of having the execution happen in the rain, to mirror Theon’s botched execution of Ser Rodrik. Of course Robb does the deed with one quick cut.
Lannister Family Meeting – I always love these Lannister family meetings as we know we are going to get some Tyrion quips, some Cersei gloating and some Tywin being Tywin. And I was as shocked as Cersei that she would be marrying Loras! This should be interesting.

What I Didn’t Like

Creepy Selyse – I know Selyse was pretty creepy in the book, but they really turned the dial up to 11 for the show, didn’t they? Fetus jars, really?
Tyrell Marriage Plot Uncovered – I didn’t love the way this all played out. The pacing was off. It happened way too fast. Loras sleeps with one of Littlefinger’s spies, who tells Littlefinger the info in a 2-second scene, and then he immediately appears before Sansa. I think this would have played out better if we were introduced to the spy ahead of time, it would have cut out the need for that one super-short scene. I also think it could have benefited from being spaced out throughout the episode, as opposed to all happening one after the other. The one sequence in the show that fell flat for me. Although the whole thing did end up giving us that pretty amazing scene between the Lannisters.

Overall, another great episode. Some lovely character moments, some action, and some more pieces falling into place. This season is really shaping up to be the best one yet! What did everyone else think? Share your thoughts in the comments and rate the episode in our poll!


532 Comments

  1. coronaking
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Hodor!

    … was not in this episode. But if was great nonetheless! The bath scene, the cave scene, the awesome duel at the beginning, the creepy song, the sweetest Shireen – you could really name every scene. Great episode!

  2. Perkins
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    tywin= boss

  3. LordDavos12
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Bath scene was perfect. Loved the episode!

  4. hodor
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Hodor

  5. gswelcome
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Jaime-Brienne bath scene!

    Jon-Ygritte cave scene!

    Hound-Beric cave scene!

    Epic!

  6. arolig
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Hodor

  7. Lin Beifunk
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    coronaking,

    The only thing that could have cranked the quality of this episode up even higher: Hodor! (Mo’ ‘dor?)

  8. The Greatsteve
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Loras is heir to Highgarden, eh? I wonder how Garlan and Willas feel about that.

  9. TheLightningLord
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    IMHO, best episode of the entire series so far

  10. Sareeta
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Hm, the only thing that seemed off for me was Selyse and her jar babies. If they are suspended in some kind of formaldehyde solution, is the blood still available for Melisandre’s sacrifices? At first I thought the blood was going to come from poor Shireen.

    I didn’t mind the pacing of the Sansa marriage plot, though I guess they could have broken it up over the course of the episode.

  11. KG
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Loras did seem to be totally over the “love of his life” Renly, didn’t he?

  12. Ryan Genualdi
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Tonights episode. Anything with Arya.

    Me: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7qjrpOiCN1rrlkkp.png

    Well played D&D. They definitely are aware of the shipping. Tumblr is exploding. I’m exploding. The acting. Give everyone in this show an award.

  13. Villane
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Goddam! This season has been so fucking great. I ‘ve loved every episode. This one was no exception. I’m gonna be so pissed during the two week gap between episode 8 and 9.

  14. Maxwell James
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman is Game of Thrones’ bath scene writer par excellence.

    Magnificent episode. Take a bow, good sir.

  15. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Are they just combining Shireen and Patchface into one person?

    If so, i wholeheartedly endorse such a thing.

  16. Loki
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    I have to say… With all my hatred to this show, I really enjoyed this episode. Every little bit. I don’t know what is wrong with me, but I enjoyed it.

  17. Scott Glennon
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Alot to process.. Hats off to Bryan Cogman. Arya…Jaime and Brienne…Robb…I think I like Shireen, Gray Scales and all. The Lannisters (what else needs to said there)! John & Ygritte! While I now have an even bigger crush on Rose Leslie, the award for best backside must go to Gwen. *whistles* ♥♥♥

    For Winterfell…….0.0

  18. Andrew
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    I really enjoyed that episode. It was sort of like the calm after all the action of last week. I liked the Sansa scenes, as always. The dynamic between Jorah and Barristan was also really cool. Shireen was also awesomely well done. Her going to Davos was a great scene.

    Finally got to see Jamie’s story about the fall of Kings Landing! That was one of my favourite parts in the book. It was done really well.

    The Karstark execution was also really well done, in my oppinion.

    Overall, a good follow up to slow things down after the climax of episode 4!

  19. TheWoodOfTheMorning
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    So Garlan & Willas Tyrell are officially out. Tywin is such a bro-chief.

  20. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Wasn’t he already over it when he met with Littlefinger and Margaery way earlier?

    Loras was helping the family out. Hot prospective king who loves twinks? Hm, I think we got one of those lying around the Tyrell grounds somewhere.

  21. Kevin Moore
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Every scene in this episode almost brought tears to my eyes, except for loras of course.
    Both Jaime’s and stannisselyseshireen scenes were outstanding.

    Where is the trailer for 3×06?

  22. Dogmayor
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    The Beric/Sandor sword fight was by far the best fight in the series.

  23. Lin Beifunk
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Eh, I dunno…grief can do very strange things. Just because he liked it doesn’t mean he wasn’t lonely. But that’s just how I see it.

  24. Uberstellar
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    The fight was great, but I felt too distracted by all the stuff in the background. I spent most of the scene yelling ‘Jeez Arya, get out of the way!’

    I am definitely not a book purist in the least, there’s only been one change I’ve been upset by (Jaime killing his cousin), but there’s so much speculation about Patchface’s possible future roles I wonder how that would play out.

  25. lebaf.
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t get to catch the episode yet. Was there a cliffhanger at the end?

  26. ryan
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Bath scene brought tears

    What right does the wolf have to judge the lion

  27. TheHedgeWizard
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    i feel bad for Willas, the guy has a bum leg and now he gets Highgarden taken away from him by Loras.

  28. Marcelo
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    I just liked it. I missed the begining episodes, but I watched the last one!!! \o/

  29. Jamb0
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Loki:
    I have to say… With all my hatred to this show, I really enjoyed this episode.Every little bit. I don’t know what is wrong with me, but I enjoyed it.

    Why would there be anything wrong with you? This was a great episode.

  30. gisizzlah
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Another brilliant episode. It definitely ‘felt’ like bryan cogman…kudos to u bro….
    I agree with wic, the pacing was at warp speed my non-book reader peeps had a hard time keeping up…. except the jaimie scene… there were lots of ohhhhhhs after that scene.

    All in all twas a fine episode…definitely puts the wheels in motion for things to come…….

  31. The Red River Viper
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    In my opinion this episode was the best thus far. From Jaime’s monologue to Tywin’s scolding…..however, I did have issue with Selyse calling one of her stillborn Edric. Edric is Robert’s son. They could have used a thousand other names. Other than that, great episode, and hell of a way to kick it off with the battle between Beric and Sandor…..

  32. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    I’m repeatedly SO impressed with how this show cuts out all the parts that were predominately fat to begin with.

    Between that and the way the actors and direction can compress information into such subtle things.. like the way you don’t notice Beric’s throat has been slit until he says something about it.. God. So well done.

    The books always seemed so bloated.. While I think they could make an even better show using 75% of the per-episode budgets on each ep to stretch it out to 15..

    It’s amazing what brevity can do for the core of the ASOIAF story when it isn’t bogged down by hundreds of pages of filler.

  33. slave2thewage
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Can’t blame Loras – that guy was hot.

  34. Darquemode
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Amazing episode.
    I could not imagine an episode in which a Tywin counsel scene, a Tyrion ad Qot scene and the must epic fight scene of the series would all not e the highlight of the episode!

    However, that Jaime and Brienne bath scene was one of theist of the entire series! Epic.

    Episode extras are here:
    http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/04/game-of-thrones-episode-3×05-kissed-by.html

    Inside the Episode is up on HBO and region free here:
    http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/04/game-of-thrones-inside-episode-305.html

  35. Nancy
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Thought the episode was good. Even my husband, who has been indifferent to NCW’s portrayal of Jaime so far, said he sold it.
    What did not work for me: . Jon is one of my favorites in the books and is doing nothing ( no pun intended) on the show. The scene with him and Ygritte was sweet, but I could have lived without it. Rose Leslie needs to eat a sandwich! Littlefinger is not as dynamic in the show as he is in the books.
    What worked: Everything else. NCW continues rock it as Jaime. So does Richard Madden, Maisie Williams, Peter Dinklage, The Hound, Beric, and even Gendry. Let me not forget Selyse and Shireen ( that little girl was fantastic).
    The Karstark sequence was my favorite of the episode. Loved the Blackfish punching him. The Davos and Shireen scene was my second favorite.
    This episode is. 9/10 for me. If this show is not a serious contender for best show Emmy in the fall, I would be shocked.

  36. kabhal
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Sareeta,

    I thought the same thing at first, but I’m guessing the lord of light wants a living sacrifice.

  37. Jen
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    I’m kind of annoyed that Robb managed to behead Karstark with one strike … it was supposed to be multiple strikes, right? B/c his sword isn’t as good as Ice? Now they’re just trying to make Theon look bad :P lol

  38. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Uberstellar,

    i loooved how crowded it was. they only have so much space down there.

    usually when you see someone film a fight in what is supposedly close quarters, everyone around the periphery moves as a unit to get out of the way (or the always hilarious ‘group catch and push back out into the center’) – this felt truly chaotic and claustrophobic in certain shots. Probably could have done with a little less editing and more of the shots that felt so visceral, but it felt super unique and realistic for a flaming sword fight!

  39. coronaking
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Kevin Moore:
    Where is the trailer for 3×06?

    Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItUyT9FpLXw

    The glimpse of Theon and his “Boy” was really promising!

  40. Kenneth
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    This was a tearful episode!

    THE SAD
    1.Arya and Gendry
    2.Shireen
    3.Jaime and Brienne
    4.Grey Worm and Daenerys

    THE AWESOME
    1.Flaming Sword Fight
    2.Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion discussion
    3.The beheading of Lord Karstark
    4.Ygritte and Jon Snow in the cave

    Pretty amazing episode!!!

  41. Katie G
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Sareeta,
    Well if it plays out like the books if I recall correctly stannis has one of roberts bastard sons, who has kings blood. Now of course correct me if i am wrong because it has been a while since I last read that book. I believe Davos saves the boy from the red woman

  42. scout
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Wow. I’ve been both anticipating and dreading the Harrenhal bath scene because it’s so pivotal to Jaime’s arc, but they knocked it out of the park! NCW has such a handle on Jaime, he couldn’t have done this scene any better. [I don't think you can consider this next bit a spoiler because they skipped it in the episode, but just in case, beware!] Brienne was right in the books when she thought to herself that Jaime was half a corpse and still half a god. Someone explain to me how someone so filthy, downtrodden and damaged can still be so hot! Hats off to everyone for this ep – each one’s better than the previous this season!

  43. Mariamb18
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t think that anything could measure up to last week but I was wrong. This was amazing.

    Top-notch acting all around but especially Maisie, Nikolaj, Steven Dillane and darling Kerry Ingram. Kudos to Cogman and Graves for delivering a fabulous episode.

    As far as Selyse and the jar babies, she is a tad more “unhinged” than in the books. And they are pulling no punches about her total devotion to The Lord of Light.

    NCW is killing it this season. We need to start his Emmy hype.

  44. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Jaimie’s monologue was terrific, but I couldn’t help but reflect about how much the season 2 scene where he murdered Alton takes away from the character arc. I hate to harp on a misstep from last season, but it impacts everything Jaimie does from here on out, and it was completely unnecessary. At least when he pushed Bran out the window, he did it out of a more legitimate sense of self preservation, and somehow managed to make it seem nonchalant despite it being an act of true desperation (which is conveyed in the scene by Cersei). Killing Alton was a weak gamble to try and escape a fortified enemy encampment. It makes the character seem much more ruthless and brutal. At this point, the reader/viewer is supposed to be finally coming around to the idea of becoming sympathetic to Jaimie, and understanding that many of the things he’s notorious for were far less black and white than they’re made out to be. The Alton thing really puts a black mark on that, at least for me. It suggested that rather than being capable of resorting to ruthlessness when there was no other option, it was a more default instinctual element of the character, which makes it that much harder to relate to him even now that he’s been torn down.

  45. Villane
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Was thinking about how the whole Loras as the heir to Highgarden thing will play out. While in the book, it made sense for Loras to don the white cloak as he was a third son. Not really so in the series. An heir would never set aside his lands, unless he made a brash and shortsighted decision like Jaime did. Perhaps though, he will decide to join the Kingsguard when he finds out he has to marry Cersei to get out of it. His family will be furious, but that will place him out of all the talk of marriage and be a great mask for his secret (or not so secret) gayness.

    Just a thought

  46. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Just gotta say I’m having a Westerosi Grade A Nerdgasm tonight. So many of my favourite moments in the book, word for word in many cases, all crammed into an hour of pure magnificence. Shireen rocked, the Greyscale makeup was spot-on what I imagined it would look like and I wholeheartedly approve of her being the one to teach our Onion Knight his letters. A-e-g is Egg, indeed. And the closing song…best thing that coulda been done for ol’ Patchy’s role.

    Guess we now know what became of Edric :)

    Note to Dave and Dan: Please give Bryan two things: 1) a healthy raise and 2) One or two additional episodes to write per season!

  47. Phil
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    It feels weird to say, but that fetus jar thing was one of the creepiest things I’ve seen in this show. Speaking of creepy, though in a different way, Littlefinger and Sansa, I was actually cringing.

    Also, seriously Gendry, way to be a douche “I’ve never had a family”

    Beric/Hound fight was AMAZING. Glad they explained the whole Beric being brought back from the dead. Also glad they kept in the full explanation of Jamie’s side of the story. I wonder if they are going to do his dream

  48. b1narys3rf
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    AMAZING! AWESOME! A+!

    Congratulations to Cogman, Graves and the whole cast & crew! Best episode yet, every scene near-perfect and thoroughly moving and entertaining!

    Only one nitpick which I can get over – the Selyse test tube babies – a bold choice I can see them going even bolder with that I may grow to accept. But overall, when you can almost make me forget about “Baelor” and “Blackwater” and “The Old Gods & The New” while being only halfway through a season – wow!

    Nikolaj was phenomenal. New depth and resonance I couldn’t expect even as a book reader.

    Just wow. Not enough superlatives! I love this show and feel so lucky to have it in our lives!

  49. Michel
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman is awesome! Very nice episode! But I have to say that I didn’t really like the order of the scenes of episodes. For me, the duel of The Hound and the Beric could be the last scene of that episode. The Jon/Ygritte stuff could be in the final too.

    Nikolaj is killing these season! His monologue was the best thing ever! Ansious to see more of Jaime and Roose. Nice they included the Qyburn/Jaime dialogue “It will hurt/I will scream”.

    Grey Worm! I’m loving the interaction between Jorah and Barristan.

    I liked the Karstark execution too, but for me the best thing was the Blackfish slap! Priceless.

    Selyse and Shireen were introduced very well, specially Shireen, she is so cute and creepy at the same time. Her singing the song of Patchface in the credits could indicate that they will be mixed up in the tv show? I wouldn’t mind it. Interesting that one of the unborn childs is “Edric”.

    Talking about characters being combine, I don’t mind Loras being combine with Garlan and Willas too, since he is the heir of Highgarden in the show. I love the Lannister reunion, Tywin Lannister for the winning! But i thaught that he learned so quickly about the Karstark thing, does he has internet in KL?

    I liked the Jon/Ygritte scene, but I think they could have showed more scene with Jon and her these season before that scene.

    Best fight scene of the show! I’m loving the whole BwB in the show. But it would be more badass for me if that scene were the last of the episode, and Beric rising from the death and talking to the Hound, and them after that, credits, would be very impactating.

    So ansious for the next episode. We are going to see a lot of Theon/Boy based on the promo, Iwan Rheon is totally pyscho. Could be the reveal of Ramsay next episode?

  50. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    see i still think him trying to break out lines up with his character.

    he really is disconnected from the real world. a little taste of reality and he wants to crawl off and die. for all his bluster in the Stark camp, he must have had a seriously hard time coping with it.

  51. Dasein
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    b1narys3rf,

    The Selyse test tube babies are a winking troll to book readers. That one is Edric. Got me!

  52. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    “You know nothing, Jon Snow…oh, oh OH!”

  53. Michel
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    About the promo of the next episode. Strange that there is a tie in Jojen mouth and Osha looking strange at something, what could that be? I wonder if it is Yara, but just a theory.

  54. Anguissette1979
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    “I especially liked the, what I hope was intentional, contrast of having the execution happen in the rain, to mirror Theon’s botched execution of Ser Rodrik.”

    They were even playing the same music (the “Pay the Iron Price” track from the S2 soundtrack). One chop, like a boss.

  55. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    The Lannister family drama scenes were great as always. It will be fun to see how Shae takes the news since in the show she’s besties with Sansa. I really hope we see the singer Tyrion has Bronn murder next season. People are complaining that they’re softening him too much, but it will be better storytelling to wait until season 4 to make the character darker.
    Qyburn’s voice is incredibly creepy.
    Speaking of creepy it was a delight to hear Patchface’s rhymes. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh

  56. Clob
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    A Storm of Swords is so filled with amazing, memorable things. This season of the show is doing it such justice, transferring all of those things from words to visuals. I couldn’t be more happy with this opportunity to see such a great book series brought to “life.” Each scene of every episode is being done so well that I wouldn’t even think of complaining about deviations. If this show was never done we’d be missing out on something so fantastic and all we’d have is a wish that someone would make it.

  57. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    nich,

    That’s true, I suppose, in the sense that it’s consistent, but I still think it was a mistake. It makes the character less relatable. One of the wonderful things of the series does is it makes you feel intense sympathy for characters you’d until recently intensely despised. Having Jaimie kill Alton makes it a bit more difficult to come around on him. I suppose it works in the show partly because we don’t get his personal reflection on having pushed Bran out the window as we do in the books, but I still think even if it was consistent, it wasn’t necessary and doesn’t help his arc.

  58. The Loon
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Naming one of the stillborns Edric…HA! I see what you did there Cogman…love the subtle trolling of book purists this season “I’d heard you’d lost your nose, it’s not as gruesome as all that”

  59. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Michel,

    It looked like it was a wooden spoon. Is Jojen epileptic?

  60. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Mark:
    Jaimie’s monologue was terrific, but I couldn’t help but reflect about how much the season 2 scene where he murdered Alton takes away from the character arc. I hate to harp on a misstep from last season, but it impacts everything Jaimie does from here on out, and it was completely unnecessary.

    That scene used to make me incredibly mad, too. I did feel a little better after reading an interview with NCW where he made a pretty good case for it not feeling out of character to him.

    His argument (which I do kind of accept) is that Jaime meant what he said to Cersei in Season One. When he was saying that he would kill everyone in the world if that was what it took to get back to her: he meant that. And look at the poor guy when he showed up at the Dreadfort: he spent that whole year wondering whether or not Cersei was dead. He’s supposed to be the person who protects her and Tyrion, and the two of them are fighting a war, pretty much on their own (since Jaime would know enough about Tywin’s battle plans to know that he might not have actually turned around and headed back to King’s Landing if things were going too well in the Riverlands to leave.) He needs to get there to protect them, and Alton is the only opportunity he’s had in nearly a year, and maybe the only opportunity he’s ever going to get. So he takes it, and yes, he probably doesn’t lose a lot of sleep over it.

    It’s not a moral decision, but it’s moral from Jaime’s point of view. And that’s kind of the point of Jaime pre-Brienne — he’s not amoral, he’s just a really, really good rationalizer. He’s good at talking himself into the idea that wrong things are right. So, yeah, I could see Jaime doing that and still considering himself to be a good guy — and from his own Jaime point of view, he would kind of have a point (as he usually does).

  61. Andy Gavin (@asgavin
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    The dragon fire may have died down, but the heat is still on. Fire is the name of the game this week: fiery swords, pyromancer’s, redhead goodness, and twists and turns galore. As usual, Martin is the master of the reversal and this week is full of ups and downs. I’m still trying to figure out how they’re going to get an entire season and a half out of the parts of A Clash of Kings they haven’t covered… But as always, my detailed thoughts on the episode can be found on my blog.

  62. Isabelle
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Midway through my first re-watch and I’ll stand by what I said before–this episode was absolute perfection. Some really moving moments between characters, great transitions and some very cute tongue-and-cheek details. There was so much to enjoy that the lack of Jon nudity barely made an impression. Jaime’s soul-bearing monologue was incredible, Jon showed some backbone, Grey Worm’s exchange with Dany perfectly illustrated why slavery and especially the life of an Unsullied is so appalling, Robb showed how torn up yet resolved he was, Roose was intimidating and irreverent, the Lannisters in KL were wonderfully dysfunctional, the Queen of Thorns made me laugh out loud with a line about figs, Stannis appeared human, and Arya made me tear up with both her rage and her sorrow. So much to love about this episode.

    Bryan Cogman and Alex Graves definitely need to team up more often–phenomenal job, Sers. Loved every minute of it, and now must return to enjoy it again (and again!) : )

  63. Rygar
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    As an ass man,I must say, Ros’ ass beats all the ass we were assed with this pASSed episode.

  64. Evil Erik
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    TheLightningLord:
    IMHO, best episode of the entire series so far

    Id agree. So much i was looking forward to

  65. Lord Selwyn
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Mark:
    nich,

    That’s true, I suppose, in the sense that it’s consistent, but I still think it was a mistake. It makes the character less relatable. One of the wonderful things of the series does is it makes you feel intense sympathy for characters you’d until recently intensely despised. Having Jaimie kill Alton makes it a bit more difficult to come around on him. I suppose it works in the show partly because we don’t get his personal reflection on having pushed Bran out the window as we do in the books, but I still think even if it was consistent, it wasn’t necessary and doesn’t help his arc.

    We’re not still on this, are we? You seem to forget that they deleted Riverrun entirely from Season 2, and Book 2 escape attempt was from a secure room in Riverrun, not even a dungeon. Once they took all the Riverrun material out of Season 2, it had flow-on effects and they had to come up with ‘something’ for Jaime’s escape attempt. As the guards would normally be very careful when they fed Jaime or whatever, the Alton plotline where the Karstark guard coming in to look at Alton was ‘off guard’ about Jaime himself, was probably one of the only sensible things they could come up with.

  66. Suzaku
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Excellent episode all around. A great fight scene (probably the best swordfight in the series so far, and the flaming sword looked awesome) and some good, dramatic character building. Sort of toning a bit down, the calm between the storms that will play out this season.

  67. Michael S.
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    It was a small scene, but that Arya and Gendry farewell was one of my favorites from this episode. So sweet and sad, great acting. “You could be my family.” “You wouldn’t be my family, you’d be my Lady.”

  68. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Shan,

    Yeah, I mean, I can see that argument, in terms of how it makes the character’s actions consistent from an analytical perspective, but I still hate what it does to the arc in general. It’s a brutal act that wouldn’t have been missed that makes Jaimie seem legitimately that much less relatable. The only other heinous act he did that we, as the viewer or reader witnessed was pushing Bran out the window, which was much more directly an act of self preservation, and in defense of the woman he loved. You can connect killing Alton to his love for Cersei, but that’s not a direct emotional observation, it’s one that has to be thought through more. If it just hadn’t happened, no one would have missed it, and it would be much easier to relate to Jaimie now we’re seeing him torn down and learning the truth about his past and the supposedly terrible things he did before the events of the series.

  69. Shock Me
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Favorite quote of the night: “What will they do? Lock us in cells?”

  70. Ed Arias
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t think they would top last weeks episode so soon but this episode was great!The bath house scene is easily one of the best in the series so far.This season the show is firing on all cylinders!

  71. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Lord Selwyn,

    Not buying it. Why not just have him charm Karstark’s son or something? Or they could have just done the same thing they did in Riverrun, where Alton’s retinue turned out to be commandos sent to try and free Jaimie. Riverrun wasn’t a necessary element of the escape attempt. Killing Alton was wholly unnecessary.

  72. The Queen's Hand
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Great now Cersei is marrying Loras? Would have taken about 30 seconds to introduce Willas Tyrell. I swear the story gets a little bit more dumbed down every episode.

  73. Dogmayor
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Lord Selwyn,

    Instead of having some googly-eyed Lannister kid they could have had someone that was completely unsympathetic for Jaime to kill, which would have done far more for his character than what they decided to go with.

  74. The Queen's Hand
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Mark:
    Lord Selwyn,

    Not buying it. Why not just have him charm Karstark’s son or something? Or they could have just done the same thing they did in Riverrun, where Alton’s retinue turned out to be commandos sent to try and free Jaimie. Riverrun wasn’t a necessary element of the escape attempt. Killing Alton was wholly unnecessary.

    That entire “Alton” thing we so stupid. Another example of dumbing down the story. A Frey that sided with the Lannisters? Well that would just be too hard to explain, lets throw in this douche and have Jaime murder him instead!

  75. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    oh i get it… but it just seems too linear. like every time you see Jamie he opens up a little bit more of his cocoon and you see what a beautiful butterfly it is..

    He starts off as an arrogant pragmatist. He pushes the son of one of the most powerful people in the realm out of a window without the slightest twinge of hesitation, much less remorse. etc. And while yes- he was never quite as bad as everyone thought he was, he was still a pretty hideous human being.

    The show just seems to do a better job of keeping it from being an archetypal come-to-the-light type story. There are hiccups.

  76. thupple
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    NCW made me cry.

    I need more Shireen.

    Stellar episode.

    Bryan Cogman, you are a devil. :)

  77. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    Yeah, I get it. Like I said, that scene used to make me very angry as well.

    It’s times like these that I really miss being able to get into these characters’ heads. The thing that made a lot of us come around to Jaime, in the end, wasn’t any specific thing that he did, but just spending a lot of time seeing the world the way he sees it and realizing how it made sense to him. No way to get that onscreen, though, short of a lot of self-justifying monologues (and while I love the guy, he’s just about hit is quota for those this season).

  78. Nimic
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    I really like how they did Stannis in this episode.

  79. GG
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    His spy should have been cheese boy.

  80. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor,

    Why be that obvious though?

    Killing a somewhat sympathetic character works for me.

    Thought the show, per usual managed to trim off so much fat that gummed up the original story while keeping the emotional core tightly wrapped up in beautifully drawn arcs.

    I always thought it was strange that so many people seemed to be furious that Jamie killed Alton. Like there is some pathological need to let show viewers in on the secret that he isn’t Joffrey or Cersei level evil. . It’s taking care of itself. It makes his shading even more intricate if anything. At that point he is still a person who thinks the entire world is owed to him, who thinks entirely too highly of himself, and who wants to get back home to his fluffy gold pillows ASAP. It’s OK if he finds an increasing shred of humanity within himself but it’s still wrapped up in all the faults that make up parts of Jamie.

  81. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    Lord Selwyn,

    Instead of having some googly-eyed Lannister kid they could have had someone that was completely unsympathetic for Jaime to kill, which would have done far more for his character than what they decided to go with.

    Right, this was what made it even worse. It was such a turnaround from the kid professing his admiration for Jaimie and then Jaimie opening up to him a bit, and then bam, he kills him with his bare hands. So many other ways to have the escape attempt go down that don’t further cement Jaimie has a cold, heartless, evil human being.

  82. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Is it wrong to hope that they find a way to cut Theon out of the story altogether?

    I feel like Martin proably intended to before he realized he could stretch more books out of his story.

    Certain characters just seem to bounce from one semi-quasi-tangentially-relevant thing to another and then back again. Those characters also seem to come along with quite a bit of extra detail regarding tapestries and architecture and whatnot lol.

    While Theon kind of worked on the page. It has the potential to waste insane amounts of show.

    That’s why the show and the book are such a FASCINATING balance-

    On one hand, you have books that were purposefully engorged and drawn out as much as Martin could manage.. And on the other hand, you have the show trying to cut down everything that is actually relevant into these tiny vignettes- and doing a smashing job of it.

  83. LordDavos12
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    The Queen’s Hand:
    Great now Cersei is marrying Loras?Would have taken about 30 seconds to introduce Willas Tyrell.I swear the story gets a little bit more dumbed down every episode.

    Well, to be fair, obviously this will never come to pass. As others have suggested, Loras will join the Kingsguard most likely.

  84. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    A bit of foreshadowing non book readers surely missed; QOT talking about weddings being safe distractions. Ha ha!
    Where is Grey Wind?
    The Blackfish doesn’t even need dialogue to be awesome.
    I love Charles Dance’s face. Perfectly cold and disdainful. He seems nice enough in interviews, but people just meeting must be intimidated.
    I don’t think Loras should be over Renly yet. “When the sun is gone no candle can replace it”. They had to get the info about the Tyrell’s marriage plot back to the Lannisters somehow so it’s a forgivable transgression. But, still…
    Loved that the Hound’s shield caught fire like in the book. Arya needs to get angrier. However, Maisie is great in the poignant scenes so I still like the Arya scenes as is.

  85. victarion
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Could have sworn I heard them call two of the fetuses “Tomard” and “Edric.” As in, characters that were aborted on the show.

  86. ebevan91
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    The way “boy” said “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” was incredible.

  87. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    nich:
    Dogmayor,

    Why be that obvious though?

    Killing a somewhat sympathetic character works for me.

    Thought the show, per usual managed to trim off so much fat that gummed up the original story while keeping the emotional core tightly wrapped up in beautifully drawn arcs.

    I always thought it was strange that so many people seemed to be furious that Jamie killed Alton. Like there is some pathological need to let show viewers in on the secret that he isn’t Joffrey or Cersei level evil. . It’s taking care of itself. It makes his shading even more intricate if anything. At that point he is still a person who thinks the entire world is owed to him, who thinks entirely too highly of himself, and who wants to get back home to his fluffy gold pillows ASAP. It’s OK if he finds an increasing shred of humanity within himself but it’s still wrapped up in all the faults that make up parts of Jamie.

    That’s not really the way the world works though. The reason Joffrey and Cersei are the way they are is because they’re incredibly psychologically damanged narcissistic sociopaths. Joffrey is an “evil” person, but “evil” isn’t his essence, his pathology is, the “evil” is a symptom of that pathology. This isn’t the case with Jaimie, and if it was, redemption wouldn’t be as simple as tearing him down and exposing him.

  88. LordDavos12
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    A bit of foreshadowing non book readers surely missed;QOT talking about weddings being safe distractions.Ha ha!Where is Grey Wind?
    The Blackfish doesn’t even need dialogue to be awesome.
    I love Charles Dance’s face.Perfectly cold and disdainful.He seems nice enough in interviews, but people just meeting must be intimidated.
    I don’t think Loras should be over Renly yet.“When the sun is gone no candle can replace it”.They had to get the info about the Tyrell’s marriage plot back to the Lannisters somehow so it’s a forgivable transgression.But, still… Loved that the Hound’s shield caught fire like in the book.Arya needs to get angrier.However, Maisie is great in the poignant scenes so I still like the Arya scenes as is.

    I agree 100%. Dance needs to be cast as a Sith in the upcoming Star Wars films :)

  89. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    My dislike list is longer, but appreciating the post and viewer input here. *>*

  90. Dogmayor
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    nich,

    It’s not letting the viewers in on a secret, it’s staying true to who the character is. Jaime doesn’t really change, it’s our perception that changes. He was never cold blooded enough to murder a relative, who was essentially a kid, who just opened up to him about how much he idolized him. That’s changing who Jaime is. I don’t have a problem with them changing the storylines up and streamlining them for the show, I do have a problem with them changing who the characters are.

  91. Lavignac
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    Who needs lightsaber re-CGI-ing of GOT fight scenes on Youtube, when Beric has got his very own lightsaber. Just throw in the sound effects to his whirling blade moves!

  92. GoT
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Beric x The Hound = Epicness

    Karstark betrayal = Epic

    Bath scene = Epic

    Marriage plots = Epic

    This episode was awesome. So full of intrigues and with one of the best action scenes of all the series (Beric x The Hound).

    The best acting of the episode goes to Stannis and Shireen!

  93. Hilda
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Ryan Genualdi,

    I totally agree! Arya broke my heart tonight! Is it wrong that I am seriously shipping for Arya and Gendry! God please let us see these too together soon!

  94. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    So much debate about something that happened last season! Maybe the premiere of season 4 should be called “The Internet Remembers”?

  95. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Michel:
    Bryan Cogman is awesome! Very nice episode! But I have to say that I didn’t really like the order of the scenes of episodes. For me, the duel of The Hound and the Beric could be the last scene of that episode. The Jon/Ygritte stuff could be in the final too.

    Agree, the placement of these scenes and episode pacing was not as great this
    episode. I regret those quality moments gave the impression
    of aside moments to break up the monotony.Still good television to view though.

  96. Aegon Librarian
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    this comment just won the internet.

    nich:
    I’m repeatedly SO impressed with how this show cuts out all the parts that were predominately fat to begin with.

    Between that and the way the actors and direction can compress information into such subtle things.. like the way you don’t notice Beric’s throat has been slit until he says something about it.. God. So well done.

    The books always seemed so bloated.. While I think they could make an even better show using 75% of the per-episode budgets on each ep to stretch it out to 15..

    It’s amazing what brevity can do for the core of the ASOIAF story when it isn’t bogged down by hundreds of pages of filler.

  97. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    just seems like splitting hairs.

    he killed Bran Stark to save his own skin.

    He killed the Lannister cousin to save his own skin..but it wasn’t “immediate” enough? i just don’t get it.

    I’m sticking with: He’s complex. He might kill another innocent person to get his way and still be expected to be sympathetic.

  98. House Snow
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Do people really care about Loras?!?

  99. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Where is Grey Wind?

    You must feel my pain at the mention, and wince that Summer will not help
    Jon out of a tough spot with his release and trek to Castle Black.
    Ghost has
    become a ghost . I hoping the Direwolves will make a presence in the future
    episodes or next season.

  100. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    The Direwolves need to talk to Drogon’s professional Agent.

  101. loco73
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Another excellent episode! I have played some of these scences in my mind over and over, and when I finally got to see them brought to life they were better than expected! The fight between Dondarion and The Hound was just great, Tywin putting down the law, I really liked the exchange between Selmy and Jorah…the cave scene where beautiful Ygritte (and beautiful Rose Leslie) finally gets taught a lesson she perhaps didn’t know…i.e. the “lord’s kiss”…LOL..and Jon Snow finally getting some lovin’ for a change! I have to say that the scene was beautifully shot and sensual and it really caught the essence of what the book conveyed!
    Hey and finally Grey Worm was revealed! Dany was visibly moved by her Unsullied! Cool! Finally we got to see Stannis almost show some humanity and emotions, but only just! Boy oh boy, is Queen Selyse freaky or what! I thought the Governor over on “The Walking Dead” was weird with his fishtank heads and his pet-zombie-daughter…but Selyse’s pickled miscarriaged fetuses take the cake on that one! Sweet Shireen with her greyscale, she is adorable, and the casting choice once again brilliant (thanks Nina Gold and Robert Sterne!). The scene between her and Davos was soo touching!

    Nooooo, poor Rob, I’m getting ready to have my heart ripped out of my chest again….Even though Lord Karstark commited that attrocious murder, when he said that the same blood flows though both the Starks and Karstarks he wasn’t kidding…and he went out bravely…not begging! Damned…Cat…see what you did?! Loved the whole exchange between Tyrion and Lady Olena… that woman is a force to be reckoned with! Ughhh and Littlefinger again…damn him! Poor Sansa she’s everyone’s plaything! Arya didn’t fare much better, she saw justice wrestled from her grip and an almost sure parting with Gendry…

    But in all honesty this episode belonged to Jamie! Nikolaj did an amazing job delivering an incredible performance to finally show another side, perhaps THE side of Jamie most of us wanted revealed, as well as the pain and hurt he lives with behind the vain and shallow facade he put up for soo long…This scene trully goes with “judge not lest ye wanna be judged”! This is the moment where Jamie trully flourishes and evolves as a character and I remember even as I was reading this was one of those “aha” moments…Nikolaj and Gwendoline deserve a round of applause!
    Kudos to Bryan Cogman for his deftly written script and once again a good turn by Alex Graves in his direction! I think most of us would agree that we want to have him direct future episodes of GoT! This combo of Bryan Cogman and Alex Graves seems to be just as good a pairing as George RR Martin was with Neil Marshall last season!

    Oh man…I dread what’s next…

    PS Can anyone tell me what is the deal with the two week lag between Episode 8 and 9 that one poster mentioned?

  102. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    nich,

    Theon has been the biggest mistake of the season. There are so many characters and story arcs there is no reason to be giving Theon so much screen time. He should have gotten a scene or 2 this year so the audience doesn’t forget about him. The fact that the whole plot isn’t even working because nonreaders have no idea what is going on so they are completely unengaged to that story. That whole plot seems so separated and irrelevant to the story right now. I really don’t want to be checking in with Ramsay torturing Theon the rest of the season but if they do plan on doing that I hope they start explaining to the audience what is going on with that whole story.

  103. Spryte
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    I understand what you mean, and I agree. I’m not sure everyone will be convinced of Jaime’s grey character. After seeing the bath scene, my non-reader friend (remembering all the horrible things he’s done up to this point) thought Jaime was trying to trick or manipulate Brienne somehow. She wasn’t convinced there’s good in him.

    It was a fantastic scene though, definitely Emmy-worthy!

  104. siberia82
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think Loras should be over Renly yet. “When the sun is gone no candle can replace it”. They had to get the info about the Tyrell’s marriage plot back to the Lannisters somehow so it’s a forgivable transgression. But, still…

    Sex doesn’t equal love. We never get Loras’ POV in the books, so we can’t be 100% certain that he never slept with anyone after Renly’s death.

  105. nich
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    The Queen’s Hand,

    I can’t get on board with your assertion that they are dumbing it down. Martin had a long time to realize that some of the knots he tied were convoluted and not complex. There is a difference. Something convoluted can be done in a simpler fashion. Something complex can not. (I just made that up! It sounds smart though, doesn’t it? LOL hahaha) – reading the books you can hit parts that feel tacked on, relationships and happenstance that feel like fan service more than plot. It’s hard to judge anything without the series being over, but I really don’t think we are missing anything that has enough of a bearing on the overall plot to be worth getting angry about.

    This show can get into stretches where they make what’s essentially a 10-15 minute long info dump on 5 different subjects split between 5 different narrators into compelling television that people without any prior knowledge of the characters can digest. That is amazing to me. It’s even more amazing that they can compress 100 pages into an hour and never feel like they’re leaving anything out.

    When they leave something out, it’s because they don’t think it is relevant enough. I’m not sure if people get mad because their personal favorites are getting short shifted or just mad because it’s different at all, but it definitely doesn’t feel dumber to me.

  106. The Loon
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    For those whining about Grey Wind…pay better attention…he was clearly shown in the Karstark execution scene…chilling under an archway with a handler watching his master proudly

  107. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    nich:
    Mark,

    just seems like splitting hairs.

    he killed Bran Stark to save his own skin.

    He killed the Lannister cousin to save his own skin..but it wasn’t “immediate” enough? i just don’t get it.

    I’m sticking with: He’s complex. He might kill another innocent person to get his way and still be expected to be sympathetic.

    What he did to Bran was necessary on a number of levels, not just for his own arc but for Bran’s, Tyrion’s, Theon’s, Robb’s, Catelyn’s, etc. It also introduced us to extremely disliking Jaimie from the beginning. The interaction with Alton held none of this significance, it just showed how brutal and heartless Jaimie could be. Is it inconsistent with the character as he’s depicted in the show? No, I guess not, but I just don’t see what it adds, and it does subtract from the subsequent relationship the viewer is intended to have with him. We already disliked him, there was no need to reinforce it at that stage. He’s supposed to be connecting with Brienne and forming a bond, but all I can think is if he thought it would somehow get him out of trouble, he’d slit her throat in her sleep.

  108. Rygar
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    I think its safe to say that Cogs is an assman

  109. Serjeant Grumbles
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Ser Osis of Liver,

    He did know nothing, though. He should’ve waited until after bath time to plant the Lord’s Kiss.

  110. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2013 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Spryte:
    Mark,

    I understand what you mean, and I agree. I’m not sure everyone will be convinced of Jaime’s grey character.After seeing the bath scene, my non-reader friend (remembering all the horrible things he’s done up to this point) thought Jaime was trying to trick or manipulate Brienne somehow. She wasn’t convinced there’s good in him.

    It was a fantastic scene though, definitely Emmy-worthy!

    This, exactly, on both counts. NCW has still done an amazing job and the scene in the bath was as good as could have possibly been expected. Every nuance felt completely genuine, from Brienne’s facial expressions to Jaimie going from lucidly describing a traumatic moment into a fading ramble. Beautifully executed.

  111. DH87
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    loco73: PS Can anyone tell me what is the deal with the two week lag between Episode 8 and 9 that one poster mentioned?

    An HBO special on Liberace airs Memorial Day Sunday since HBO doesn’t air original episodes of its Sunday tentpole series on holiday weekends.

  112. nich
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    For sure. While there are some revelations in there, it got entirely too much page time in the books as well. People love the creepy angle, but it seems like it comes out of a totally different book and doesn’t connect in any way that is vital. And if the show cuts down on it, people are gonna be soooo mad. Meh.

    The first time I read the series, Dany felt the same way to me.. And I think the show is going to have a terrible time with establishing that Dany is doing something other than running in circles of futility. “Oh another city? Where’s the road to Kings Landing? What? We’re still on that other continent? But we’re getting closer right? No?! Oh crud. She is still coming back, right?”

  113. Mark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Spryte,

    Also, The Bear and the Maiden Fair should assuage your friend’s concerns soon enough, but it’s a perfect example of how reinforcing Jaimie’s brutality with Alton just makes what’s happening now confusing for the uninitiated.

  114. Dornishman
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    The Queen’s Hand: Loras

    Great idea! Lets introduce more 7th tier characters to the show.

  115. Arthur
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Ok I loved this episode everything was great except one scene…

    The Sir Loras gay scene… Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa… But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    Lol… But besides that nasty image the episode was amazing. Mr Cogman nailed it!

  116. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    Anguissette1979,

    Not to mention Cat’s words before the cut :”tell his men we will keep him alive as a hostage” . And then we have Theon’s music playing. Brilliant stuff.

  117. Direhound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Great episode. Spectacular writing. Brilliant acting and pacing. Flawless.

  118. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    DH87: An HBO special on Liberace airs Memorial Day Sunday since HBO doesn’t air original episodes of its Sunday tentpole series on holiday weekends.

    I am giddy and guilty about this broadcast. Guilty pleasure because I want to watch
    the Bourne guy and macho ex San Francisco copper, play at gay acting. Giddy
    because I was an avid fan of Liberace. Watched all the vintage stuff and specials,
    wanted a candelabra for my piano *>*

  119. nich
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    Mark,

    I’d think the fact that he pulled a sword on Brienne- presumably not to play games- like 3 episodes ago- was meant to remind you that while they may have formed a witty repartee, they don’t really bond in a way with shared trust until they’re both in captivity. The groundwork is laid earlier, but pre-capticity it feels 100% consistent with Jamie Lannister to decide to kill Brienne on that bridge and then ride off to Cersei.

  120. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Ok I loved this episode everything was great except one scene…

    The Sir Loras gay scene…Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa…But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    Lol… But besides that nasty image the episode was amazing. Mr Cogman nailed it!

    As a straight male, I have no problem saying those are both handsome gentlemen. That comment came off a tad homophobic.

  121. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    The Loon,

    He is?!?! I’ll look for that in the rewatch. So much going on you have to watch every episode five times to catch everything.

    Was tonight the first mention of Eastwatch? I wonder if we’ll get to see it. I also wonder if the Twins will be in the opening credits.

  122. Julie
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Which bath scene are you refering to Direhound? LOL I enjoyed them both.

  123. nich
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    People SHOULD be confused by Jamie.. you know?

    He’s the one person whose moral ambiguity (read: actual human like characteristics) has been held up for the light the most in the show.

    Everyone else has fallen a little bit more neatly into their hero and villain roles than they do in the book, even though you get basically the same overall feeling about them in either media.

    Ned’s stupid honor and Robb/Cat’s stupid stupidity got a lot more people killed than Jamie Lannister going HAM on his cousin..

    If anything, I wanted the show to make the Starks out to be worse. While the books humanized the Lannisters over time, they were more about showing the Starks as fallible instead of human enough to do things that might be viewed as monstrous by the opposing viewpoint.

    I guess that’s what all their wayward bannermen are for, but for people who have supposedly grown up in this unforgiving North, the Starks seem to have a hard time accepting that it takes a lot of blood to secure a foothold on the future.

    Probably why they have such a hard go at it! Poor dumb creatures.

  124. Mark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    nich:
    Mark,

    I’d think the fact that he pulled a sword on Brienne- presumably not to play games- like 3 episodes ago- wasmeant to remind you that while they may have formed a witty repartee, they don’t really bond in a way with shared trustuntil they’re both in captivity. The groundwork is laid earlier, butpre-capticity it feels 100% consistent with Jamie Lannister to decide to kill Brienne on that bridge and then ride off to Cersei.

    Of course, but they were enemies then, she was his captor. But a lot has changed since the bridge. I suppose even in the book at this stage I wasn’t totally sold on Jaimie yet, but first with the sapphire’s, and then the bath scene, and Jaimie’s exposition about what really happened the day he killed the Mad King, it’s not just Jaimie’s situation that’s changed, it’s the reader’s perspective on his entire character. In the book, we don’t only relate to who Jaimie has become, but we question our perspective on who he’s been all along. It’s much harder to do that with the Alton scene.

  125. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    The awesomeness.

    Really really good episode and of a piece with the previous one.

    The Hound vs. Beric Dondarrion. What a fantastic duel. Great stuff. Chilling.

    And so much for that “Boy, Maisie Williams really held her own with Charles Dance.” See those scenes with Joe Dempsie? Or with Richard Dormer and Paul Kaye? By now, any time she’s on screen, we should be watching to see if the actors in question can hold their own with Maisie Williams. “I can be your family.” G-d, that was heartbreaking.

    Michael McHatton’s Roose Bolton is pretty chilling. The way he lets Jaime sit on the possibility that Cersei has been hurt is really creepy.

    The Blackfish doesn’t get any dialogue, and he’s still friggin’ awesome.

    Jaime and Brienne in the bath. The writing; the acting. It’s so incredibly strong. If there’s one thing that it loses, it’s that Brienne standing, you see a shot of a pretty curvaceous ass there…so it’s kind of “so much for the awkward big lady” thing.

    I like Jon getting saucy. “What happens to your eagle when I kill you?”

    Quite a lot of dialogue in this lifted from the book. Worked well. Also lots of great, tense stuff from Jorah and Barristan Selmy.

  126. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    TheWoodOfTheMorning,

    It’s not as if they’ve provided a lot of awesome quotes in the course of the books or memorable passages.

  127. Ser Balon Swann
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Agree with all of Winter is Coming’s points, just thought I’d throw in a few other details that really gave me say “DAMN!”

    1) Lord Bolton’s little monologue with Jaime which he ends with “your sister… is alive and well” really helped establish his character and showed the power of that cold personality.
    2) HOLY HOLY SHIT. I know WiC mentioned this but just to go back over it, the execution scene was so darkly magnificent. Loved how they used the same music, scenery, dark mood as Theon’s execution of Ser Rodrik. I do slightly wish they kept true to the book with Robb struggling to take the head off after a couple of blows, but maybe they thought that would be too much and foreshadowing of the RW . Slightly made up for it with Robb’s look of wrath and fist clench.
    3) Really liked how they are showing Stannis’ human side. At first I hated it with his whole “I’m horny” monologue with Mel, but contrasted with his confession to Selyse, his argument with her, and his relationship with Shireen, I think its actually quite well done.
    Lastly, I’m excited to see what more they are going to show/ if they are going to do the big reveal next week with Theon and Ramsay.

  128. Zack
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Okay so I’m sure more happened in this episode than the cave and the bath and Hound v Beric, but that’s what I’m going to remember. Besides that this episode was pretty even handed with the camera nudity by gender and all those scenes felt really authentic and good in part because of that.

    God but I loved Jaime’s monologue SO MUCH. That bath scene made the episode. Everything about it was just so much perfection it’s hard to handle. Best scene of the night. Love Nikolaj, love Gwen. *squee*

    This season has already had four of the show’s ten best episodes.

  129. The DarkStar
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    From now on, I’m gonna refer to “sucker punching” someone, as “Black fishing”

    That was fucking awesome.

  130. RT
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    I think the Jon Snow arc for Season 3 is bungled just like last season. Jon’s story is one of strongest in the third book and it has been completely botched. So disappointed in what D&D have done — serious doubts that it will turn around.

  131. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    nich,

    nich:
    Mark,

    just seems like splitting hairs.

    he killed Bran Stark to save his own skin.

    He killed the Lannister cousin to save his own skin..but it wasn’t “immediate” enough? i just don’t get it.

    I’m sticking with: He’s complex. He might kill another innocent person to get his way and still be expected to be sympathetic.

    As he said. “There are no men like me. There’s only me.”

  132. Jacarb
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    Even before I remembered who wrote it, I was thinking it was such a great episode for book readers. So many long-awaited scenes were done just right, and with so much book dialogue woven in (I don’t say lines along with the show often, but “I’ll scream loudly” was impossible to resist). The made-for-TV snippets were tailored to support the narrative just right (Shireen and Davos! And watching Jorah try to figure out if Barristan knows was delectable…).

    Great way to follow-up the last episode. There was no out-doing dracarys, but a brisk and evenly eventful episode kept the pace up without burning anyone out. These kinds of episodes really are the foundation of the show, when characters are developed and we actually see why the web unfolds the way it does. These episodes require the writer to be so tuned into the characters, to be so aware of how every element of the plot is interconnected…it takes someone who has a working emulation of Westeros running in their head at all times.

    So…Mr. Cogman, how many tacos would we need to stock an underground bunker with for you to be voluntarily locked inside while you write seven episodes a year?

  133. The DarkStar
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    It’s almost a sin for a book reader, but after that final scene, I think all my favorite characters are lannisters.

    1) Tywin
    2) Tyrion
    3) Cercie
    4) Jaime

    I love how Martin/the show runners/ the writers/ THE ACTORS can make that happen.

  134. DH87
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    The set dressing has the potential to match Gemma Jackson’s best, Kings Landing notwithstanding.

  135. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Mark,

    Mark, I think you’re right about it being our perspective that changes (in part) once we get to Harrenhal, not just Jaime as a character. Yes, Jaime changes – he’s forced to re-evaluate his very identity once he loses his sword hand – but the truth is, he was never as terrible a person as we thought. There was a valid reason for killing the king that only he knew about, and everyone subsequently misjudged him. But Jaime has always cared what people thought of him, and the bitterness at their judgement led him down a road he never intended to travel as a young man. Along the way, some of his choices were less than noble – despite his rationalizing – and now he has to face that and decide which road to travel from now on. I think that works, even with the Alton scene. He’s done some rotten things. They might have been for good reasons, but they were rotten nonetheless. Now he has to come to terms with that and move on. This is the scene where we finally see how complicated a character he is. This is the scene in the books where he becomes my favorite (sorry, Tyrion). There’s just so much going on with Jaime. I don’t think HE even knows why he does what he does half the time. Starting now, he starts living with a purpose. His purpose, not someone else’s. It’s an incredible journey to experience in the books, and after tonight’s performance, I think it will be even better to watch. NCW just rocks as Jaime!

  136. The DarkStar
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    If there was a Rosetta Stone ‘High Valyrian’ I would definitely invest in it.
    Easily the most beautiful language I’ve ever heard, especially when spoken by Khaleesi.

  137. Anne
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    This episode was pure excellence from the very first second to the very last. Something about it…I think it was even better than last week. There was no “downtime,” it flowed well, every scene was exciting, it was just in your face and relentless. Sheer perfection!

    Cogman is THE MAN. I always enjoy his episodes the best. he seriously should write more of them!

  138. The DarkStar
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    victarion: Could have sworn I heard them call two of the fetuses “Tomard” and “Edric.” As in, characters that were aborted on the show.

    Good Point!!

  139. Zack
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    siberia82,

    I can’t even believe this has to be said. Losing a great love doesn’t take away human urges, and the guy was even one of Littlefinger’s prostitutes who knew exactly what he was dealing with ahead of time, with Loras.

  140. Darquemode
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    More than a “tad” IMO.

    Personally I loved the scene. It was an interesting way to connect the dots. I have no issue with gay scenes. I find most sex scenes quite un-sexy personally this scene was very tame.. It does not matter if they are straight or gay scenes (even if I am straight), because I do not watch Game of Thrones to be aroused I guess. XD

    If the scene fits the story and moves things forward I am all for it!
    This scene did that.

  141. Mark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    scout:
    Mark,

    Mark, I think you’re right about it being our perspective that changes (in part) once we get to Harrenhal, not just Jaime as a character. Yes, Jaime changes – he’s forced to re-evaluate his very identity once he loses his sword hand – but the truth is, he was never as terrible a person as we thought. There was a valid reason for killing the king that only he knew about, and everyone subsequently misjudged him. But Jaime has always cared what people thought of him, and the bitterness at their judgement led him down a road he never intended to travel as a young man.Along the way, some of his choices were less than noble – despite his rationalizing – and now he has to face that and decide which road to travel from now on. I think that works, even with the Alton scene. He’s done some rotten things. They might have been for good reasons, but they were rotten nonetheless. Now he has to come to terms with that and move on. This is the scene where we finally see how complicated a character he is. This is the scene in the books where he becomes my favorite (sorry, Tyrion). There’s just so much going on with Jaime. I don’t think HE even knows why he does what he does half the time. Starting now, he starts living with a purpose. His purpose, not someone else’s. It’s an incredible journey to experience in the books, and after tonight’s performance, I think it will be even better to watch. NCW just rocks as Jaime!

    Fair enough, I agree it can still work with the Alton scene, it doesn’t destroy the arc–it was more a wrinkle than a defining moment–I just think as a wrinkle it takes more away than it adds. But I also agree that Jaimie is a fantastic character and NCW is really doing a fantastic job. This season was always going to be the big test of whether he could live up to Dinklage’s portrayal of his little brother, and as great a job as he’s done since the first episode of the first season, he’s absolutely acing it right now.

  142. strepsi
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Jesus, grow up and try to be less homophobic.

  143. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    The preview for next week? “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention” was far and away the most brilliant bit of original dialog yet.

    While I still preferred last week, for a relatively “slow” episode, this was brilliant.

    NCW hit it out of the park. In fairness, there aren’t many roles an actor gets as deep and multi-faceted as Jaime Lannister, but NCW steps up. I can’t imagine it being done better in any way. That was as perfect as it gets.

    I am glad that the show pares the Tyrells down to Loras. It makes sense for the show to collapse the characters in this manner. Plus, it is a brilliant bit of plotting! Cersei laughs at Tyrion being given a maiden beauty and the key to the North. Cersei knows Sansa doesn’t know the truth about Loras and is too much of an idiot to see it. Sansa wanted the dashing Knight of Flowers for a husband and will hate Tyrion for it to the end of her days. Cersei loves the irony, she’s lapping it up…

    And then… VOOM. Cersei now has to eat Sansa Stark’s leftovers. Unlike Sansa, Cersei does know the truth, hates it and yet is trapped. It’s a double serving of delicious irony.

    All of this also sets up some complicated motivations and red herrings for what is to come as well.

    I thought that Littlefinger’s scene with Sansa was also brilliant and quite creepy in a sad way. Baelish wants so much to be wanted by Sansa for his own sake, he wants to give her a choice. Not because she has one, and not because he is actually offering her one. Littlefinger merely gives her the choice because his ego desperately wants her to choose him – or at least, not choose Loras. His ego needs it, wants it. And of course, she has no such intention. Littlefinger goes to Tywin, but we are left to figure that out on our own (for now at least). So now Littlefinger will have to make his own stars align, come what may. I thought it was a damnably clever invention in the series and Aiden Gillen plays that sad-creepy-predator thing perfectly. There is so much that is going on unsaid in that scene. GRRM must have been proud to watch it — or he should have been.

    Lastly, while this is glossed over, in amongst all these hidden motivations in the show and the books – it’s worth remembering this one itty, bitty, tiny detail: nowhere in the books is the person who tried to have Tyrion killed at the Blackwater actually confirmed. We still don’t actually know if it was Cersei who made that happen – or someone else. Just sayin’.

  144. Bean
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    That episode was amazing. By far my favorite of the season. Bravo!

  145. Zack
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    scout,

    Wonderful post, and absolutely right.

    Ser Balon Swann: 1) Lord Bolton’s little monologue with Jaime which he ends with “your sister… is alive and well” really helped establish his character and showed the power of that cold personality.

    Yes! I love that despite knowing that this moment undoubtedly happens once Bolton has already switched allegiance, he’s not going to miss an opportunity to mindfuck someone.

  146. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    Mark: Fair enough, I agree it can still work with the Alton scene, it doesn’t destroy the arc–it was more a wrinkle than a defining moment–I just think as a wrinkle it takes more away than it adds.

    You may be right that it took away more than it gave, except that it gave us a great NCW scene! I loved the way he played that, down to the regretful half-smile when his unknown, unimportant cousin told Jaime how squiring for him was the best moment of his life.

  147. jkb
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    ok i just had i 55 minute nerdgasm. insane stuff.

    beric vs. hound holy fuckballs! speechless…

  148. Darquemode
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    nich,

    Disagree 100%.

    Personally I loved the so-called “bloat” of the books and I wager that if the books were as streamlined as the TV series they would not have been anywhere nearly as successful!

    Martin’s detailed world-building is what sets him apart from most writers.

  149. Matt
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    The Red River Viper,

    I think it was a nod to the book readers, letting them know that Edric is OUT, Gendry is IN.

  150. Isabelle
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Michel: Bryan Cogman is awesome! Very nice episode! But I have to say that I didn’t really like the order of the scenes of episodes

    WildSeed: Agree, the placement of these scenes and episode pacing was not as great this episode.

    I know what you’re saying, and it was a little jumpy, but if the scenes appeared later in the episode, perhaps a large potion of the audience would be so busy waiting for those iconic moments that it’s only half-watching the other scenes. This way, the audience enjoys the scenes right at the beginning and can then properly focus its attention and absorb the material that follows.

  151. Darquemode
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    victarion,

    Petyr, Tomard and Edric indeed!

    I just caught the first name on re-watch.

    I’m guessing Petyr Pimple [Frey] does not meet Robb at the Twins or pass out from trying to outdrink the Greatjon! XD

  152. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    victarion,

    Petyr, Tomard and Edric indeed!

    I just caught the first name on re-watch.

    I’m guessing Petyr Pimple [Frey] does not meet Robb at the Twins or pass out from trying to outdrink the Greatjon! XD

    Speaking of the Greatjon, where the hell has he been?

  153. Violentos
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was at his best this episode! His performance in the bath scene was bloody brilliant! Wow!

    Maisie had two fantastic scenes as well! I got chills when she screamed out “Burn in hell!!!”. Huge emotion! When she told Gendry that she could be his family, it was very heartwarming and sad at the same time.

    I’m glad we got to see Shireen Baratheon finally! A little disappointed that Patchface wasn’t included though.

    Fantastic episode overall!

  154. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    LordDavos,

    Not just the Greatjon, but have we met Maege or Dacey Mormont? I can’t remember if we saw them last season in Rob’s meetings. If so, where are they?!

  155. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I noticed the same thing. Cersei never remembers it in her pov chapters. Maybe it was Varys or LF sowing discord in house Lannister? It’s doubtful GRRM just forgot to confirm that!

  156. Panicintrinsica
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Not sure if anyone has predicted this yet, but I think the Jar Babies are going to take the place of the leeches. There are three, after all. It also quickly sets up a precedent for a different baby who may or may not appear down the line.

  157. Darquemode
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12,

    I guess he is not returning to the series as far as I know. I think there were some scheduling conflicts and then they did not ask him back. I don’t recall any official details on the subject if there were any.

    I know the actor, Clive Mantle, recently was attacked and had part of his ear bitten off! So he has been in the hospital lately I would guess! XD

    http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/philip-mcgilvray-suspected-biting-ear-3181762

  158. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    scout,

    I don’t think we have; if so, they weren’t named, iirc.

  159. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    nich,

    Disagree 100%.

    Personally I loved the so-called “bloat” of the books and I wager that if the books were as streamlined as the TV series they would not have been anywhere nearly as successful!

    Martin’s detailed world-building is what sets him apart from most writers.

    Funny you should say so. GRRM does not consider himself to be a “world-builder” at all. He has distinctly rejected that notion to epic fantasy. He sees the quintessential “world builder” as the role that JRR Tolkien created for the fantasy genre and the thousand imitators who have followed him — and GRRM rejects that path.

    GRRM is a character builder. He builds characters first and then merely creates the set to go around them, as needed, and without much of a plan. JRRT did precisely the opposite, he created a world, then made an over-arching plot, and only last did he add the characters to his stew.

    As for loving “the bloat”? We all loved it up until the end of A Storm of Swords. However, I think you will find there are a few million less readers on that side of the ledger by the time AFFC and ADwD come along. At this stage, the things has spun out of control on GRRM. That’s the main reason why we’ve been waiting so long between novels now.

  160. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    LordDavos12,

    I guess he is not returning to the series as far as I know. I think there were some scheduling conflicts and then they did not ask him back. I don’t recall any official details on the subject if there were any.

    I know the actor, Clive Mantle, recently was attacked and had part of his ear bitten off! So he has been in the hospital lately I would guess! XD

    http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/philip-mcgilvray-suspected-biting-ear-3181762

    At least it wasn’t a direwolf biting off a finger! :D

  161. Clob
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    I just finished my typical third watch of the episode on Sunday night. It’s an odd thing to get stuck on, but the background music of the Robb and Talisa scene when he forms his new plan had me stuck on something during my first two watches. It reminded me of something that I couldn’t put a finger on until the third time and then it finally hit me. It’s extremely similar to that of Tom Cruise’s movie A Few Good Men. If you’ve seen that movie several times and rewatch/listen to this scene you’ll catch it. It’s not that interesting of a thing for others since it’s just a musical coincidence, but after my forehead smacking realization I thought I’d share. :P

  162. Matt
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Grey Wind was in the background when Robb cut off Karstarks head

  163. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    Remember how people were all concerned that Jaime didn’t cut the Mad-King’s throat? He did! He did!
    Seriously though, STELLAR episode. I just found myself floored by all the stellar acting throughout. Jaime’s monologue and Brienne’s expressions throughout were simply amazing.

  164. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Michael S.,

    It was one of my favs too. Arya is one of my favorite characters from the books because of her strength and resilience. So seeing her standing there with tears in her eyes, asking Gendry to stay with her, was really moving.

  165. outdoorcats
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    You know what was my favorite little moment in this episode that I didn’t see anyone mention in the first ~75 responses? ANTON LESSER AS QYBURN. My god, he is perfect. I got chills with every line he delivered, thinking where his storyline is going.

  166. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Steel_Wind,

    I noticed the same thing. Cersei never remembers it in her pov chapters.Maybe it was Varys or LF sowing discord in house Lannister? It’s doubtful GRRM just forgot to confirm that!

    GRRM didn’t forget, and yes, the clue that Cersei never recalls it when she is actively trying to have Tyrion hunted down and killed later is no small point.

    There are several options for that deed. LF, Varys, and Pycelle (particularly Pycelle) seem to be good candidates for it. Even Tywin himself is not a complete stretch.

    But I think it was none of those: I think it was Lancel. He had the motive, the whisperings originated from near the Queen Regent — and let’s face it, choosing another to do the deed, maybe even slipping the order ostensibly in the name of the Queen along with a good pouch of gold, is entirely Lancel’s style.

    Most importantly, it also better explains his guilt following the Blackwater and his conversion to the evangelical side of the Seven. It’s not the incest that gets to him, it’s the attempt at Kinslaying. That’s why he believes he was mortally injured and cursed.

  167. Skipjack
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    I really enjoyed this episode but something is really starting to nag at me. Jon Snow is just a drip. I wish the show would give him the credit for thinking it’s willing to give any Lannister, even Cersei. They ‘re making one of the most appealing book characters flat and mindless. I’ve been waiting for anything to make him appealing again after end of first season and this was it, a bit of humanity. Problem is I just don’t care now, he hasn’t had any drama to date which merits caring how he feels in this moment.

  168. Lundy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    Jon Snow showing some personality! Loved seeing that, finally!
    Jaime in the bath… Bloody wonderful.
    Queen of Thorns browbeating Tyrion… Hmmm. Don’t like seeing Tyrion as a browbeaten bookkeeper.

  169. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Skipjack:
    I really enjoyed this episode but something is really starting to nag at me.Jon Snow is just a drip.I wish the show would give him the credit for thinking it’s willing to give any Lannister, even Cersei.They ‘re making one of the most appealing book characters flat and mindless.I’ve been waiting for anything to make him appealing again after end of first season and this was it, a bit of humanity.Problem is I just don’t care now, he hasn’t had any drama to date which merits caring how he feels in this moment.

    Jon Snow’s tale is the principle victim of the bloated cast on the show. GRRM can make Theon vanish for two books, but D&D cannot. They have to include him and many others. Every invented scene we see is a scene we don’t see Jon in his main role as protagonist of A Storm of Swords.

    The problem is, the lack of Jon’s tale on the impact of the story is really starting to show.

  170. Darquemode
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    The “bloat” that I responding to was mentioned as being in this season, this episode. I think most people would agree that as you put it “We all loved it up until the end of A Storm of Swords.”

    Personally, I enjoyed AFfC and ADwD almost as much as ASoS and AGoT (which I consider !a and !b in rankings) and more than ACoK.

    While I agree there is some bloat as GRRM worked through his issues, I think most of the traveling and new regions/ characters introduced were amazing. Meereen was the first time I enjoyed reading Dany’s chapters (despite Daario). I loved the Dorne chapters and enjoyed the Iron Islands for the first time too.

    Interesting bit about world-building compared to character-building!
    I can see the difference and agree GRRM is more the latter. Although I think to some degree then that GRRM has accidentally built one of the most detailed fantasy worlds by creating those very detailed characters. XD

  171. RT
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Jon Snow’s tale is the principle victim of the bloated cast on the show.GRRM can make Theon vanish for two books, but D&D cannot. They have to include him and many others. Every invented scene we see is a scene we don’t seeJon in his main role as protagonist of A Storm of Swords.

    The problem is, the lack of Jon’s tale on the impact of the story is really starting to show.

    Totally agree — SO FRUSTRATED!

  172. Lundy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    One question, why is Jon Snow cursing with “Seven hells” if he worships the old Gods, not the Seven?

  173. kelly
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Really loved so much about this episode. It wasn’t as “epic” as last week but was great in a different way because it really showcased the characters. They just do a great job portraying how no one in this story is one dimensional. And the actors are really exceptional. NCW really deserves award consideration for his work this season. And Maisie Williams constantly tugs at my heart strings. I can’t wait to see what she does with all the amazing material she will hopefully get once she gets to Braavos next season.

    I hope in upcoming episodes they start to slowly grey up Tyrion. Though I love his character I do think they are making him a bit too “good guy.”

    And I am intrigued by what appears to be Jojen having a seizure in the preview. Wondering where they are going to go with that.

  174. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Ok I loved this episode everything was great except one scene…

    The Sir Loras gay scene…Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa…But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    Lol… But besides that nasty image the episode was amazing. Mr Cogman nailed it!

    A woman would appreciate it if you would kindly keep your homophobia to yourself.

  175. Zack
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    He’s one of my favorite book POVs. Something about his appeal has been lost on the screen. In the first two seasons I dismissed the feeling with “But his material in these books wasn’t as good as the third book, so it will improve”

    I don’t think it’s gotten any better. I’m just used to it.

  176. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    Lundy:
    One question, why is Jon Snow cursing with “Seven hells” if he worships the old Gods, not the Seven?

    I was a little bothered with that as well…but then I was trying to think of some other “obscenity” that Jon could’ve said, and couldn’t really think of one mentioned from the books that would fit. Oh well, it’s a shrug in my book….I guess he coulda said something concerning the Others but I’m ok with it…he was kinda sorta raised (very loose definition!) by Catelyn.

  177. Panicintrinsica
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    Lundy,

    Why do I say “for all that is holy” and “for the love of god” when I am an atheist? Because it’s a phase you use in certain situations, and shouting “Trees!” would be ridiculous.

  178. Dolorous Fredd
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    This was a really shitty and homophobic thing to say. There are gay people in the world, there are gay people in the fictional setting of Westeros. Grow up and get over it.

    I’ve read the site daily since Season 1, episode 1 aired. I’ve never commented before, but I didn’t want to let this go by without saying something. Also, there were a lot of bums in this episode. If any of the “buttholes” (real classy, Arthur) were dirty, it was likely Jaime’s. Dude just lost his wiping hand…

  179. Shan
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    Panicintrinsica:
    Lundy,

    Why do I say “for all that is holy” and “for the love of god” when I am an atheist? Because it’s a phase you use in certain situations, and shouting “Trees!”would be ridiculous.

    Snerk. My new head canon is that whenever Northerners get upset, they shout, “Trees!”

  180. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    Dolorous Fredd:
    This was a really shitty and homophobic thing to say. There are gay people in the world, there are gay people in the fictional setting of Westeros. Grow up and get over it.

    I’ve read the site daily since Season 1, episode 1 aired. I’ve never commented before, but I didn’t want to let this go by without saying something. Also, there were a lot of bums in this episode. If any of the “buttholes” (real classy, Arthur) were dirty, it was likely Jaime’s. Dude just lost his wiping hand…

    Arthur,

    Unrelated to your post (tho I agree with you) but your name made me chuckle.

  181. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    Lundy:
    One question, why is Jon Snow cursing with “Seven hells” if he worships the old Gods, not the Seven?

    Profanity assumes a cultural position in language, even when those who are using the words do not profess the same beliefs. In Quebec, once a bastion of Catholicism and now the most secular state or province in North America, the two most typical oaths are “câlice” and “tabarnac”. Most of them have little idea what they are saying or why it’s religiously profane. But it’s how you swear if you live in Quebec, so they do – and they are profane because linguistically they are, even if the religious justification for it is long gone. (Google it and look it up. It’s fascinating stuff and will probably seem completely silly to you if you are not from Quebec or New Brunswick). Those who live in France consider it entirely amusing and quaint and those words are no longer used there often as profanity (the etymology of the tradition has medieval roots and Quebec’s form of French is far closer to the medieval era’s than France’s now is.)

    Closer to home and also in the real world, I know dozens and dozens of Jews who use the phrase “for Christ’s sake” and “Jesus Kee-rist” every day when they swear.

    If you want to feel it’s out of place, by all means — feel free. But that does not necessarily make it so.

  182. mags giantsbabe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Looking forward to seeing this episode, people seem very positive about it, even the cave scene, but agree with Skipjack, Snow’s lack of story time and overall impact on the overall narrative IS starting to show. Even non-book reading friends are starting to notice it. And Kit Harington is just to damn humble and polite complain about it. He obviously can’t really criticize his bosses, because he’s still young and up and coming.

  183. Dornishman
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Ok I loved this episode everything was great except one scene…

    The Sir Loras gay scene…Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa…But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    Lol… But besides that nasty image the episode was amazing. Mr Cogman nailed it!

    Okay, this is really homophobic. That, or you are purposefully trying to stir up people.

    Bryan’s season 2 episode also contained a gay love scene, and the same thing happened in the comments section. Some fans obvious need to grow up.

  184. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    Phil,
    I didn’t think of Gendry as being a douche when he said that. Arya at least had a family for the first 14 years (?) of her life. He never had anyone, ever. Is it better to have had a family and lost it than to never have one at all? They both have very good reasons for the decision they’re making. He was just trying to explain to her that she is running toward her family, or at least, what’s left of it. He has nothing and no one to run to. She thinks he ought to care about her more but she’s a little girl and there’s no romance there, at least not in his eyes. Also, Arya is being a bit naive….so far all of the men in Stark’s camp have been killed or are caught up in the fighting. She’s not offering him much but more of the same danger. Why not make the choice himself, as he said, choose who he fights and serves?

  185. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    Skipjack,

    I hear ya. I’m crossing my fingers that they will finally start to give him his due. I thought he was good in his interaction with Orell and Tormund. It’s almost as though they have pushed back his big moments to season 4, where they will have to feature him as heavily, if not more than every character. Season 4 will basically be centered around the Wall and King’s Landing. Jon needs to have a season like Dany is having this year. A season that sets him up as a lead character that the audience can care about. I know I think of Jon as being the closest thing to Ned in this series. He is a true protagonist in a story with many grey characters. Some may find that boring, and I’ll admit that he isn’t as interesting as Jaime or Tyrion, but he is the one character I truly root for. I’m waiting for the show to bring that character back to the forefront.

  186. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Fantastic episode.

    The fetuses wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. And Tara Fitzgerald and Stephen Dillane pulled it off masterfully.

    So many great moments, all executed in a compelling fashion. Chief among them being Jaime’s monologue and the swordfight etc etc.

    But blending Patchface and Shireen together? If that’s what they have done I commend it. Or maybe she learned the song from Patchface? I am just excited we may actually hear :

    King’s blood, fool’s blood! Blood on the maiden’s thigh. But chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye!

  187. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    I really enjoyed the way Cersei was taken down a peg. She was so sure she was there to deliver the news to Tyrion and gloat. Instead she was there to get her own set of marital marching orders. Of course, knowing what we do from the books, I am fairly confidant that Loras will avoid marrying her by joining the Kingsguard. Hell it might even be her who suggests it to him in a passive aggressive attempt to escape her father’s machinations.

  188. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    Bodiccuh,

    I agree; I don’t see how Gendry was douchey in that exchange at all.

  189. Nick_Scryer
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Excellent episode! Everything was amazing, the fight was INCREDIBLE.

    I was disappointed with no “This cave is dark too but I’m the terror here” especially since there is a whole 10+ seconds of silence where it should have been and no Hound crying :(

    Two negatives make it a 9.8/10 :)

  190. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Ok I loved this episode everything was great except one scene…

    The Sir Loras gay scene…Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa…But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    Lol… But besides that nasty image the episode was amazing. Mr Cogman nailed it!

    It didn’t bother me, but perhaps that’s because it isn’t something I think about or picture very often. It might be that you simply do that more often than most of us, which explains why it was more disturbing to you.

    Tell us Arthur, do you spend a lot of time thinking about Varys’ gash, too?

  191. Biscotti
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    In the trailer for Episode 6, was that Jojen gagged by someone? And I wonder who Arya is talking about.

    Great episode, particularly enjoyed the bath scene and Tywin’s wedding planning. The little princess is AMAZING. The song at the end of the episode was a nice touch.

  192. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    One of this woman’s favorite scenes of the episode (besides all the many mentioned above already) is Grey Worm meeting the Khaleesi. Absolutely fabulous interaction, acting, and dialogue between the two of them which explained so much about why the Unsullied would bother to follow her, she is their liberator, their hero. Can’t wait to see the episodes to follow, and how their world will be changed by their collaboration. If anything, that was probably the most important strategic scene of the episode besides the beheading of Karstark IMO as far as repercusions to follow from a scene. That said, the sword fight was awesome to watch, Shireen/Davos and Selyse were incredible, and the music at the end was stunning. Bravo Mr. Cogman, Bravo!

  193. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer,

    This surprised me too. That was such a badass line.

  194. JamesL
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    D&D could have easily made Theon disappear for at least a season but they chose not to and it has been the weakest stuff of the season and will most likely continue to be. I rolled my eyes when I saw Theon tied up and screaming again in the preview for next week. I can’t understand how they thought it would be a good idea to give Theon an arc this season when there are so many other story arcs to cover with such little time. The reason GRRM didn’t have him in ASOS is because he feels irrelevant to the story right and that is because he is. GRRM brought back in books when he was relevant to the story being told. If they wanted to show Theons transformation into Reek fine, but at least wait until next season.

  195. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar: A woman would appreciate it if you would kindly keep your homophobia to yourself.

    He only likes seeing men’s bodies when they’re, like, all muscular and holding swords and stuff. Because that’s all manly and shit.

  196. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:08 am | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar:
    One of this woman’s favorite scenes of the episode (besides all the many mentioned above already) is Grey Worm meeting the Khaleesi. Absolutely fabulous interaction, acting, and dialogue between the two of them which explained so much about why the Unsullied would bother to follow her, she is their liberator, their hero. Can’t wait to see the episodes to follow, and how their world will be changed by their collaboration. If anything, that was probably the most important strategic scene of the episode besides the beheading of Karstark IMO as far as repercusions to follow from a scene. That said, the sword fight was awesome to watch, Shireen/Davos and Selyse were incredible, and the music at the end was stunning. Bravo Mr. Cogman, Bravo!

    Agreed; the discussion when Grey Worm told Dany why he wanted to keep his name was rather touching.

  197. Charles2
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Lundy,

    Probably for the same reason atheists still say bloody hell, or god damn, or thank god.

  198. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    Mark,

    I saw Jaime killing Alton as an act of complete desperation. He knew he really needed to get out of there in order to live and he knew that his sister really needed him in KL. There’s also an aspect to his character that I hadn’t thought about until after the bath scene tonight and then watching Gwendoline Christie’s bit of “inside the ep”. She basically says that Jaime threw away his reputation in order to protect 100′s of people the night he killed the Mad King and that Brienne realized he was an honorable man doing only what he thought was right. And if that’s the case, don’t you think the moment he killed the Mad King and realized that no one would ever thank him for it, that they would always treat him like dirt, that perhaps he just decided not to give a damn what anyone else thought any more? I would imagine he’d think “well what did I do that for? No one appreciated it and now no matter what I do, it won’t matter, good or bad, they’ll always think badly of me, so why care?” And by the time he’s Robb’s captive, he’s so many years and so many acts removed from his original self that killing Alton is not that far of stretch. The journey with Brienne and being reminded of what honor really is (honor is keeping faith with your own internal standards of right and wrong without regard to what the outside world thinks) plus the suffering of losing his hand, has brought him back full circle to the Jaime he was the night he became the Kingslayer. He says it in the bath scene, “My name is Jaime.”

  199. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    Steel_Wind,

    D&D could have easily made Theon disappear for at least a season but they chose not to and it has been the weakest stuff of the season and will most likely continue to be.I rolled my eyes when I saw Theon tied up and screaming again in the preview for next week. I can’t understand how they thought it would be a good idea to give Theon an arc this season when there are so many other story arcs to cover with such little time. The reason GRRM didn’t have him in ASOS because he feels irrelevant to the story right and that is because he is. GRRM brought back in books when he was relevant to the story being told.

    Right, but GRRM was able to tell the story of what had happened to Theon by the point-of-view perspective in the books, which the people running the show are lacking. If Theon had suddenly shown up again two seasons down the road looking like a scrawny old crazy man don’t you think people might’ve been a little WTF? I’m fine with them telling his story as long as they abbreviate it so that they tell just enough that the viewer gets the point, because most of us don’t enjoy torture porn (although I admit the mindfuck has been kinda fun to watch).

  200. JamesL
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    The Hound and Berics duel was great but Berics resurrection fell flat.

  201. Max
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    Did anyone else (mainly book-readers I suppose) find it a little unbelievable that Orell wouldn’t know that the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea are manned?

  202. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    JamesL

    D&D could have easily made Theon disappear for at least a season but they chose not to and it has been the weakest stuff of the season and will most likely continue to be.

    GRRM brought back in books when he was relevant to the story being told. If they wanted to show Theons transformation into Reek fine, but at least wait until next season.

    You are right that D&D could easily make Theon disappear. Poof and it would have been done.

    Making Alfie Allen reappear a few seasons later, on the other hand, was far less certain. Theon does not have to earn a living and GRRM does not have to pay Theon a salary; HBO does.

  203. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    Max:
    Did anyone else (mainly book-readers I suppose) find it a little unbelievable that Orell wouldn’t know that the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea are manned?

    Of course they know. That was just exposition, sans sex masquerading as a question.

    Not nearly as entertaining that way, right?

  204. sCor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Funny detail: The Karstark Soldier, who claims to have only watched while the others murdered the 2 Boys, was the guy who killed the Guard.

  205. Jess
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    I think that was the best episode of a TV show I’ve ever seen. Nikolaj… wow.

  206. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Charles2:
    Lundy,

    Probably for the same reason atheists still say bloody hell, or god damn, or thank god.

    Huh? During sex, my wife frequently and OFTEN shouts out “Oh..Scientific Method!!”

  207. JamesL
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Why not save it for next season though? Just give Theon a scene or 2 this season so the audience doesn’t forget him and knows he is alive. I wouldn’t have as much of an issue with it if it was handled better but right now for any nonreader it is a confusing mess of a storyline that seems irrelevant to everything else going on. They need to at least explain who these people are and where Theon is and what the hell is going with that whole story line otherwise the audience will continue to be annoyed by this storyline. Are we just going to have another scene next week of mysterious man torturing Theon in his basement while he screams some more because that is not compelling television.

  208. Syrio
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    Max,

    It was a way to deliver exposition to the viewer.

  209. Andy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Robb sure is his father’s son. Choosing hard justice for the Karstarks instead of playing the game

  210. JamesL
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:28 am | Permalink

    This was a great episode but I have to say the preview for next weeks episode is probably one of the shittiest previews they have ever put together.

  211. Evilclosetmonkey
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    This episode really drove home how little I care about the show version of Jon. Between his entire season 2 arc and the gutting of his scenes up until this episode, I find myself ambivalent to show Jon’s fate. When Tormund told him he like him, my first thought was Why? We’ve seen nothing that would lead us to believe the two have any relationship at all. Then when Ygritte wants them to stay in the cave I again thought Why? In the books we see them growing closer before the cave scene. Here they have sex and suddenly she wants to run away with him forever. I guess Jon and Pod read the same how to guides on sex. It’s a shame that the Jon stuff has been butchered because I’m on board with the vast majority of the changes D&D have made to make it a better TV show. The way they’ve adapted Jon’s story has sucked all the drama and most of the humanity out of it.

  212. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    Bodiccuh,

    I so agree about how that scene ended. When he says, “Jaime. My name is Jaime,” he’s reclaiming his identity for the first time in seventeen years. Now he starts down the road to becoming the man he MEANT to be when he was a boy. His arc has been good all along. This is when it gets great!

  213. Luana
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    Enjoyed the episode very much, especially the Jaime/Brienne bath scene. But somebody has to ask why they didn’t bother dying Shireen’s hair black. It IS kind of critical to the plot for all Baratheon offspring to have dark hair. Also, dead babies in a jar, no. That was taking things way too far. Ugh. Selyse is a religious fanatic, not batshit insane.

  214. Mister Stark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    I understand the “love” that Ygritte gets from fans. But man, Gwendoline Christie. *whew*
    I was in love with her just cause she’s tall…but now. Oh my…oh my my my…

    OH MY.

  215. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    Mister Stark,

    100% agree! Perfect rear end :)

  216. Zack
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I thought it was cleverly masked exposition being posed as a ‘test’ for Jon to pass or fail based on what Orell already knew.

  217. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    I hate to say it but I agree that Jon’s story is not getting enough air time and/or impact. But I hold out hope that will change as we build toward Season 4.

    Did anyone else notice how Selyse tried to dissuade Stannis from seeing his daughter? I thought that was weird. I know in the books she kept the little girl cooped up away from everyone but I don’t remember her actively discouraging Stannis from having anything to do with her. Am I wrong?

  218. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Mister Stark,

    You know, I’ve wondered since we first met Gwendoline Christie as Brienne how her obvious lack of ugliness would affect Brienne’s arc. She may be large and (when in armor at least) unfeminine, but I always thought it was the hateful comments she received as a child for being ugly that damaged her so much. Since this Brienne is obviously attractive, how will that affect her insecurities? She has to feel unworthy for her storyline to work, and after that bath scene, who could think her unworthy?!

    BTW, I praised NCW for his portrayal of Jaime, but I need to add that GC knocked it out of the park, too. She had less to work with, but was bang on with every expression.

  219. LordDavos12
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:52 am | Permalink

    scout:
    Mister Stark,

    You know, I’ve wondered since we first met Gwendoline Christie as Brienne how her obvious lack of ugliness would affect Brienne’s arc. She may be large and (when in armor at least) unfeminine, but I always thought it was the hateful comments she received as a child for being ugly that damaged her so much. Since this Brienne is obviously attractive, how will that affect her insecurities? She has to feel unworthy for her storyline to work, and after that bath scene, who could think her unworthy?!

    BTW, I praised NCW for his portrayal of Jaime, but I need to add that GC knocked it out of the park, too. She had less to work with, but was bang on with every expression.

    To be fair, while not flat out “ugly”, she has been “uglied” up. Her facial features are somewhat masculine, which is probably the measuring stick for all Westerosi. I think we as fans/readers know she isn’t ugly due to photos; but for a random watcher who doesn’t know anything about the show/actress, I would bet that they would consider her as ugly.

  220. Max
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    Syrio:
    Max,

    It was a way to deliver exposition to the viewer.

    I get that, but they could have done the exposition in a way that was more plausible. For example, they could have made it seem like he’s just confirming that no other castles than those three are manned. (You could argue that he was in fact doing this, and being sneaky about it, but it didn’t seem this way.)

  221. Turncloak
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    Just watched. All I can say is CHARLES FUCKING DANCE

  222. Mister Stark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:00 am | Permalink

    scout,

    Well I think she was considered “manly” cause of her height. She is not “demure”. Ladies are demure. They can be tall, like Sansa, but Sansa is demure, she’s slender. That is very “lady-like”.
    Then you have Brienne’s choice to become a woman of the martial skills. Ladies don’t do that. So they say she is manly, she wants to be a man, men are not called “pretty” in the books, except maybe Loras. But that is also a nod to his sexual choices.
    So since Brienne is obviously as good as most men with a sword, the men would have to figure out a way to put her in her place of being below men. So they would call her ugly.
    Obviously when Brienne was probably younger she was raised or starting to be raised to be a “lady”. So, when that was not a path she could take, she would have heard it from both sides. The men and the women.
    She is upsetting the basic tenants of male and female gender roles. She is a threat, so they could not just kill her or something like that. She is still a lady to start with and then a knight later. So, they take her down a notch anyway they can.

  223. The Loon
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    Watching the preview for next week…freaking Ramsay is perfect…if you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention…chills!

  224. magnuskn
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    I must agree that the writers are dropping Jons arc something fierce. Not even to mention Tormund, whose whole boisterous personality seems to have been forgotten ( one single scene in the beginning is all we got ) and his friendship with Jon has fallen to the wayside. The rest of the show is amazing ( although I agree that the focus on Theon is really unnecessary ), but Jon, who is one of my favorite characters in the novels, really has lost a lot in the transition to the series. They need to build him up, very soon, or the promotion to Lord-Commander will seem completely unearned.

    I wonder if we’ll get to the siege of Castle Black this season? Things are progressing faster than I expected.

  225. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:24 am | Permalink

    Was Selyse talking about the smoke demon baby that Melisandre birthed and which killed Renly? Selyse said to Stannis, “she gave you a son”. If she wants to provide a true heir, how the heck can a smoke demon fulfill that wish? Makes no sense to me.

  226. Leland's Axe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:34 am | Permalink

    Utterly amazing episode. Probably my favorite of the whole series – it didn’t have the firepower of Blackwater or last week, but packed in so many great scenes. The scenes are fantastic on their own, but actually hold together as a really cohesive and powerful series of vignettes about the nature and limits of our loyalties, apart from any narrative aim they achieve. I think it’s funny that after D&D protested so vigorously that “themes are for 8th grade book reports” they create an episode like this, which is such a rich and layered work of art. That features an awesome fight with a flaming sword. Best of both worlds, really.

  227. The Purist
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Somebody said that the books were “bloated” at the same time geeking out to the show, excuse me while I throw up…

    I address this in general, because more and more TV show fundamentalists are getting louder with their nonsense. Without GRRM’s novels, D&D are a bunch of nobodies with the only thing they are known for is one of them wrote that atrocious script for that Wolverine movie. I laugh at you TV show fundamentalists saying how D&D are better off not following the books at all or how the show is better than books. Without the books, there wouldn’t be a show. Get it through your thick skulls. Notice how the best moments in the show are that ones that they kept unchanged in the books. Not crap with Ros, Talisa or whatever.

    Anyway, I give this episode a 1 out of 10. A point for the Jaime scene because they kept most of it in the books. Okay, I’m ready at you people getting angry and throwing your bottles at me.

  228. Maester of Puppets
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    I understand why they did the jar baby thing…

    It’s hard to get across to a wide audience how screwy and creepy Selyse was just by showing her to be a religious zealot. Something visual had to drive it home…and it helps reinforce the awkwardness between Selyse and Stannis and give a little of the history between then in an instant. It tells a story in 2 seconds that would otherwise take 5 minutes or more of screen time.

  229. Rafael
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    The DarkStar:
    It’s almost a sin for a book reader, but after that final scene, I think all my favorite characters are lannisters.

    1) Tywin
    2) Tyrion
    3) Cercie
    4) Jaime

    I love how Martin/the show runners/ the writers/ THE ACTORS can make that happen.

    Haha… I agree :)
    But I love Arya and Sansa as well… and littlefinger… and Varys… and the Hound. I think I will stick with everybody :D

  230. Rafael
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:52 am | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    nich,

    Disagree 100%.

    Personally I loved the so-called “bloat” of the books and I wager that if the books were as streamlined as the TV series they would not have been anywhere nearly as successful!

    Martin’s detailed world-building is what sets him apart from most writers.

    Being a book lover myself, I can’t agree more.

  231. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:52 am | Permalink

    The Purist,

    You can do better. If you really think as an episode of television it was a 1/10 then you are either a crazed lunatic with an extreme bias against everything about the show or you are simply trolling. Maybe both?

  232. Leland's Axe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    The Purist,

    It’s not really worth getting angry over, and I don’t have any bottles handy. If you just want to assert the books’ categorical superiority to the TV show, that’s fine, but it’s not a very interesting conversation to have. Personally, I think each has its advantages and drawbacks, some of which are inherent to the respective mediums, some of which are the result of decisions by the showrunners/author. You can pick favorites if you want, but I prefer to just enjoy two great pieces of entertainment on their own terms.

  233. Bean
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    The Purist,

    I have been extremely critical of every cringe-worthy mistake by D&D, and find plenty of them, particularly in season 2.

    But even as someone who feels they have a tendency to mess things up, I absolutely can’t find any fault with this episode. It was by far the best episode of this season, and one of the best in the series.

  234. The Loon
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:04 am | Permalink

    As someone who first watched the show then read the books I think people like The Purist are absolutely insane…have you ever seen a book to screen adaptation before? Anyway…as a fan of the various fools in the books I actually think having Patchface and Stannis’ daughter combined could work…the P Face Killah’s prophecies can still become a reality but have Shireen as the prophet will give her a better role in the show…also having it be her that teaches Davos to read is another nice change

  235. easteros bunny
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    Disappointed that there was no “blonde muff” in the bath scene :(

  236. FrYo
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    It just keeps getting better doesn’t it?

    Shireen was perfect and the creepy song at the end unexpected and brilliant. The arc I did not expect to see in this episode and it may have been the best one if not for Jaime.
    Because Jaime is freaking awesome! NCW is fantastic. The scene is fantastic. Gwendoline Christie is fantastic. And Bryan Cogman is fantastic++.

    I was slightly disappointed by the Ygritte&Jon cave scene, it felt a bit off but maybe I have just been looking forward to it for too long.

    Watching the episode, Arya turning back to Gendry, my only thought was: ‘Twitter just disappeared’. I think D&D are doing it on purpose for the benefit of Fabio.
    And then I just went: ‘Baam! said the lady.’

    For the rest, the part with Dany was quite nice with outstanding landscapes. I did not get to listen too much, I was too busy watching the background.
    Scenes in KL were indeed a bit fast paced. They could have kept some for next week.
    Robb scenes were really good. I loved his scene with Talisa.

  237. Icebird
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:31 am | Permalink

    Fantastic episode but overall not quite as good as last week. (Still a 5/5)

    Wish the Hound/Beric scene was a little closer to the book. I love the Hound’s line before the fight, “This cave is dark but I’m the terror here” and I wish they would have taken the 2 seconds it required to put it in the show. Also would have liked the Hound to freak out and cry over getting his arm burned as in the books. Small complaints really but it was the difference between epic and great for me. Stunning visuals with the flaming sword – I’m sure it was CGI enhanced at least.

    I missed Ygritte’s lie to Mance about them dancing beneath their skins every night. It could have worked just as well with Tormund and again, it’s something that would’ve just taken 5 seconds or so to add. The scene did just seem a little off to me and I think it’s only because it was their first time rather than deeper in their relationship as in the books. The suggestion of staying together in the cave may have made a little more sense to me if they had been more serious sooner. Again, small complaints… the scene was great. And who wouldn’t want to stay in that cave with Ygritte? Rose Leslie is stunning.

    My favorite scene had to be the Jamie/Brienne scene. Amazing and perfect. Loved the scene in the book when I read it a few days ago, (my 3rd readthrough) and I’m glad it lives up to it.

    Also loved the moment between Dany & Grey Worm. Great scene at the end with Tywin, Tyrion, and Cersei. I wonder if Tyrion’s marriage to Sansa would have worked better in the show as a surprise as it is in the books. We’ll see next week I suppose.

    Still waiting/hoping for Sam The Slayer.

    Best season of Game of Thrones yet folks!

  238. Nagga's Kin
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    Luana: Selyse is a religious fanatic, not batshit insane.

    I beg to differ: Selyse is batshit insane!

    She keeps those fetuses around to remind herself each and every day how she has supposedly failed her husband, as if bearing sons were a woman’s sole – or even primary – purpose in life. Moreover, she’s apparently so deeply ashamed of her daughter’s skin condition that she keeps her locked away without any companions her own age, as if girls are worthless unless they conform to some societal notion of physical beauty. Selyse’s self-loathing is off the scale, something Melisandre has exploited to make her approve (!) of Stannis’ adultery.

    The religious fanaticism is really just the cherry on top.

  239. Uncle B
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:49 am | Permalink

    Not as good as last week. The cuts were too fast. Not enough emotional involvement.

    But Jaimie was great. Awesome scene! He will get a lot of offers from Hollywood.

    Why is Winterfell still smoking?

    Why is Jon a great lover? Come on, it took me years to find out how to go down on girls. And I had the Internet to look things up.

    The Karstark punishment was not grounded enough. Just killing the boys is not enough motivation.

    No chemistry between Littlefinger and Cersei. Littlefinger should be wittier. I love him.

    Stannis boring. I think the actor is good but the writing not?

    But the onion knight scene with the girl was great.

    Missandei’s boobs not so big after all? Why?! Give her bigger boobs!

    Tywin great as usual.

  240. Turncloak
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    Theory on how the show will handle Willas Tyrell:
    1) he’s dead on the show and was killed by The Red Viper (rather than crippled like in the books)
    2) this will add even more tension between Loras and the Red Viper in the show

  241. Macejko
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    I didn’t love the way this all played out. The pacing was off. It happened way too fast.

    Oh, so you’d like more pointless f*cking talking about things we already know? This quick discovery of the plot was a move of a genius.
    I really think Bryan Cogman should have been the person to write this season as a whole. D&D are losing their touch. Every episode they wrote this season was mostly a pure sh*t.

  242. Danno
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    It was a shame we didn’t see Briennes boobs, but at least we saw her ass. Infact, we saw a lot of characters asses in this episode.

    The Karstark betrayal seemed a bit rushed as well as the Loras trap. Those were my only two gripes with this episode.

  243. carryboo
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:03 am | Permalink

    Totally loved the Hound vs Beric, although a little disappointed about the lack of emotion at the end. I guess they might be saving the Hound’s emotional breakdown for later for greater impact? Next best scene, the bath scene with Brienne and Jamie.

    Can’t wait for next week!

  244. the goat
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    “I bring them into the royal fold, and this is how they repay me? By trying to steal the key to the North from out from under me.”

    “Sansa is the key to the North? I seem to remember she has an older brother.”

    “The Karstarks have marched home. The Young Wolf has lost half his army, his days are numbered. Theon Greyjoy murdered both his brothers, that makes Sansa Stark the heir to Winterfell. And I am not about to hand her over to the Tyrells.” (Boosh)

    “The Tyrell army is helping us to win this war. Do you really think it’s wise to refuse them?”

    “There is nothing to refuse. This is a plot. Plots are not public knowledge, and the Tyrells won’t carry this one out ’til after Joffrey’s wedding. We need to act first, and kill this union in it’s crib.”

    “And how do we do that?”

    “We find Sansa Stark a different husband.”

    “Wonderful.”

    Cersei: “Yes. It is.”

    Bawling. No, actual fucking bawling.

  245. the goat
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    “I wouldn’t know where to start…”

    “At the beginning.”

    Call the waterworks, coz I can’t stop these tears.

  246. purplejilly
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    and Bryan Cogman hits it out of the fucking PARK! Absolute best episode of the entire series, with the exception of the end of season cliffhangers. Lots of stuff in there for book readers, no character assassinations, all the changes from the book made PERFECT sense. The dialogue was great, the scenes flowed well, all the nudity made perfect sense, it was amazing, I am going to watch this episode over and over again. LOVED IT!!!!!

  247. Pepi
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    Macejko,

    I beg to differ. Walk of Punishment, for instance, was rather good, imo. And it wasn’t only written by D&D, but it was also directed by Benioff himself.

  248. hivernale
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    This episode was great! The writing, the acting, everything.

    One thing bothered me though. In the cave scene when Ygritte is removing her clothes we can clearly see she has no armpit hair. In character it doesn’t make any sense a wildling warrior like Ygritte would make time every day or every couple of days to pick up a dagger to carefully shave her armpits. Ygritte says literally to Jon Snow “when was the last time you had a bath”, implying that hygiene isn’t exactly at the top of a wildling’s list. With trying to survive in a freezing and harsh climate, I imagine having cleanshaven armpits is at the bottom of Ygritte’s to do list.

    I know I’m nitpicking here. I just think that in a show that spends so much time on getting the details (costumes, hair, overall design) right, it’s a missed opportunity. The reason behind this is probably that Hollywood always acts like women don’t have any body hair unless it can serve as a plot device, and there are still people in this world who freak out when they see a woman with body hair (which seems utterly silly to me). The showrunners make so many bold choices in their adaption of ASOIAF, I wish they would have taken this one, showing a wildling woman in all her hairy glory, as well.

  249. The Greatjon
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    The Purist:
    Somebody said that the books were “bloated” at the same time geeking out to the show, excuse me while I throw up…

    I address this in general, because more and more TV show fundamentalists are getting louder with their nonsense. Without GRRM’s novels, D&D are a bunch of nobodies with the only thing they are known for is one of them wrote that atrocious script for that Wolverine movie. I laugh at you TV show fundamentalists saying how D&D are better off not following the books at all or how the show is better than books. Without the books, there wouldn’t be a show. Get it through your thick skulls. Notice how the best moments in the show are that ones that they kept unchanged in the books. Not crap with Ros, Talisa or whatever.

    Anyway, I give this episode a 1 out of 10. A point for the Jaime scene because they kept most of it in the books. Okay, I’m ready at you people getting angry and throwing your bottles at me.

    You take all the fun out of it when you make it so obvious how badly you want to be abused. Try being a little more subtle next week.

  250. voiceareason
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    The Purist,

    1/10, absolutely pathetic attempt at trolling.

  251. Rinso
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Great episode. I loved the trial of combat between the Hound and Dondarrion. Very beautiful. The scene in the bathtub between Jaime and Brienne was also amazing. Nicolai Coster-Waldau is an amazing actor and I love the way he plays Jaime. The beheading of Karstark was well done and I’m glad they kept this subplot; also, nice parallel between that scene and the way Theon executed Ser Rodrik back in Season 2 – almost identical music and setting with the rain and the lines, and very fitting.
    And the final scene with Tywin and his cubs – awesome.

    I’m not sure I liked the ultra creepy baby jars in Selyse’s chambers. Not neccessary, really. She’s neither that creepy nor that crazy in the books.
    The thing I really disliked was the way they uncovered the Tyrell plot to marry Sansa to Loras. I wonder why they went that way when they bothered with Ser Dontos back in Season 2. I mean, sure, I get that there are lot of characters and subplots in the books, and some things have to be condensed and combined (hence why I don’t mind erasing Willas and replacing him with Loras), but they really shat on Loras’ character. Sure, he’s not an important character and all, but his devotion to Renly even after his death is important part of who Loras is; I don’t see him fucking around with random squires – it feels very much off character.

    But anyway, a good episode, no – more than good. Few minor gripes, but overalll very solid and very enjoyable.

  252. Dornishman
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Anyone else notice Yunkai in the opening credits? A bit early for that I think.

  253. voiceareason
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Rinso,

    So they changed an extremely minor character into someone who enjoys sex, and that is fairly realistic. Why is it impossible that he had lovers afterwards? Just because of that single quote about the sunset?

  254. Macejko
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Pepi,

    Sure, it had it’s moments. But for me, those pointless fillers (like the dialogue Talysa had with little Lannisters, or the whole Podrick subplot) are getting unbearable. There is no sign of them in this year’s episodes written by Vanessa Taylor and Bryan Cogman, but they are present in every episode written by D&D.

  255. penguinslayer
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Macejko,

    They needed to introduce the Lannister boys , so that people would be shocked and horrified when they were brutally slaughtered. Would it have been better if they were like “Oh yeah, you know those kids we mentioned? Karstarck killed them. Be horrified!”

  256. Rinso
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    voiceareason,

    Like I said, I recognize that he’s a minor character hence it’s not that big a deal. And since he is a minor character and it’s never outright said that “No, he doesn’t have lovers after Renly died”, yes, it’s not impossible. However, it’s never stated that “Yes, he does have lovers after Renly died” either. And yes, all his behavior post ACOK points that Loras truly loved Renly and still does. So, in my view, yes, that is a major difference.

    But, I want to repeat myself – yes, this is a minor character and yes, this change is not important to the overall big picture. In all honesty, when I have to nitpick about a change in a secondary (at best) character such as Loras, it means that I’m pleased with the important stuff. And that’s what matters.

  257. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:37 am | Permalink

    Villane,

    Excellent point. I am surprised that WiC was surprised by the Cersei-Loras match. Loras is just the show’s substitute for Willas, and in the books Tywin proposed the Cersei-Willas match, so it’s just a name switch, not a surprise.

    But the Kingsguard issue is interesting, especially since Jaime did exactly the same thing to the Lannisters, and for the same reason (avoiding marriage.)

  258. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    GG:
    His spy should have been cheese boy.

    I seriously doubt any Littlefinger spy could fool the Queen of Thorns long enough to be allowed to serve food.

  259. Wolfman27
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Lundy,

    Pretty sure it’s just profanity. Doesn’t necessarily mean he follows the New gods. Arya even says “seven hells” in the first season during her discussion with her father and Sansa about them being sent home.

  260. GoT Addict
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    good episode, but not that good as 3×04. too less dany scenes.
    and i can’t really ship jon/ygritte. if jon becomes the lord commander he has to prove hiself more than just in a sex scene.

  261. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Exactly.

    Grief sex is common and necessary. Homophobic trolls are homophobic.

  262. GeekFurious
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    Another excellent episode. My only criticisms are:

    1. The fetus thing… it stopped being about the character interactions and became about those jars. Poor framing. Poor decision.

    2. The cave scene needed a bit more… time. Sure, it was a very good scene but I felt like it didn’t linger long enough on the weight of what was happening inside both their heads. Sometimes you just need 5 more seconds to add greater weight to a scene.

  263. Pepi
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    Macejko,

    I thought Pod’s scene was pretty comedic (although I didn’t feel the need of dragging it into the next episode) and a decent way of involving Pod a bit more into it. Also, the “musical chair scene” was hands down one of my favourite scenes to date.

  264. Macejko
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    penguinslayer,

    I think the better way would be to introduce them and kill them in the same episode. They were not the characters you are supposed to grow fond of. They are disposable, they are tools. Introduce them and let them die, no one cares for them. They existed only as the tools for Karstark ‘s betrayal. Why do I need to hear a story about Robb the Werewolf?

  265. GerB40
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    Lundy,

    It’s just an expression. Im an atheist but if i stepped on a plug id say Jesus f*cking Christ..

  266. The Purist
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    I throw in an arbitrary score and you GoT fanboys lose it. LOL.

    Anyway, why this episode didn’t do it for me:

    The relationship between Jon and Ygritte were rushed. They had Ygritte on most of Jon’s scenes in the expense of Halfhand in season 2. This season, they barely had scenes together, but now she wants the two of them to be together, just to show Rose Leslie naked, not that I’m complaining about that bit. The book developed the relationship much better. TV show fail.

    Making Rob stupider. Out of all the Starks, his character has been assassinated the worst by D&D. They didn’t gave him his speech on why he has to behead Karstark and cutaway to the execution, so makes Rob look like a total asshole by making him ignore Catelyn’s and that… woman who is married to Robb advice on why he shouldn’t execute him.

    Loras sleeping with that guy. No, my reason is not homophobic. Loras has only love for Renly and to have him sleep with that guy just ruins that. Loras took the white cloak as soon as he arrived at King’s Landing, because his true love is dead. Can’t wait what asinine reasons the show will have to make Loras be part of the Kingsguard.

    All the other scenes, with the exception of Jaime’s scene, are either forgettable or not worth talking about.

    I have said my piece, but I can tell you GoT fanboys are foaming at the mouth of the thought of someone who doesn’t like this show. You go have your restless nights, while I’ll be counting the days till we have an episode written by GRRM to show those pretenders how it’s done.

    Bean,
    That’s cool. Just because I didn’t like this episode, doesn’t mean you can’t like it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that other way around. The TV show fundamentalists have this “if you aren’t with us, you’re against us” mentality. Maybe it wasn’t that bad for you, because it was written by Cogman and not the terrible duo.

    The Greatjon,
    Come on, you and I can re-enact that “genius” of a scene where D&D’s favorite, Ros was spanking that prostitute. You can be Ros and I’ll be the other one.

  267. Macejko
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    Pepi,

    Yeah, it was funny, but what was the point of it? GoT is not type of a show that can afford wasting precious screen time with pointless and LONG subplots such as this one. Every episode is barely an hour long and they were pretty much wasting the most of it this season. It is pretty obvious that D&D don’t know how to write a transition between separate storylines without some pointless gibberish (for example the game Sansa and Shae played in the first episode). Just get to the damn point! No one cares if the ship is going to Volantis!

  268. sunspear
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Pacing was a little weird with the Hound/Beric fight at the beginning, but every scene was gold.

    Shireen is now competing with Arya for my favorite child actor.

    I’m going to have to disagree with WiC on the Littlefing set up. If they had a scene introducing the spy, we’d have the same short scene that your complaining about.

    4.5 out of 5, but I’m rounding up.

    OT, but did anyone else watch Vikings last night. That was a pretty bad ending.

  269. gisizzlah
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    GG: His spy should have been cheese boy.

    I 100% agree. It would’ve brought a greater shock value…

  270. penguinslayer
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    I find absolutely hilarious how suddenly Loras is everyone’s favorite character, and he apparently had tons of character. Give me fucking break! He had maybe three scenes in the whole book, and it’s realistic that he would have sex, even if he woudn’t fall in love again. Renly has been dead for months. Is he meant to weep in every fucking scene?

  271. imaginescence
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    I agree with pretty much every like/dislike. Special mention to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, that was not only one of the best scenes in the series so far, it was some of the best acting I have ever seen.

    I like that we finally get some time in Dragonstone. Shireen looks to be a very good character, and I like that it humanizes Stannis a bit.

    My one personal dislike is Selyse’s dead babies in jars. That was honestly too much. I appreciate that they’re trying to showcase her mental imbalance, and to illustrate why Stannis shuts her away, but really ? That was more Alien than GoT. I think it would have worked just fine with portraits of her sons, or maybe their tiny skulls that she talked to.

    I didn’t really like the fact that Loras was so eager to fool around. “When the sun has set, no candle can replace it”, after all. When that scene began, I was actually expecting him to stop, feeling guilty about Renly, and justifying it by saying he’ll soon be married.

    And I hope him being engaged to Cersei won’t prevent him from joining the Kingsguard. I’m really looking forward to Jaime’s interactions with him and to the Kingsguard getting more focus.

  272. Ser Tahu
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    So I finally saw the episode, and overall it was brilliant, but I had three problems with it:

    1) The homosexual sex scene with Loras could have been avoided

    2) “The only person left with an army strong enough to take Casterly Rock is Walder Frey’ … and the entirety of the Vale, which is ruled by your Aunt -_-. Dammit Robb!

    3) IT IS PRONOUNCED AY-GON NOT EGG-ON
    every other occurrence of ‘ae’ in the series has been pronounced ‘ay’, why pronounce it ‘egg’ and introduce a (very annoying) inconsistency? For example:
    Baelor -> Bay-lor
    Maester -> May-ster
    Daenerys -> Day-nair-iss
    Rhaegar -> Ray-gar
    Shae -> Shay
    Aerys -> Ay-reez
    Aegon -> Egg-on?!? NO!!! IT SHOULD BE Ay-gon #NOONEUNDERSTAAANDS

  273. I'm Unsullied
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    The Queen’s Hand,

    Yeah because Wilas is such a key character in the books with multiple PoV chapters, etc.

  274. gisizzlah
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    All this talk about what should be cut and what shouldn’t… how about petitioning HBO to give D&D a 90 min episode now and then huh?

  275. David The Grey
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Bodiccuh: So seeing her standing there with tears in her eyes, asking Gendry to stay with her, was really moving.

    And Maisie used just the right voice for that scene, so different from her normal bossy tough-girl voice. Awesome acting, very very touching.

  276. coronaking
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    3) IT IS PRONOUNCED AY-GON NOT EGG-ON
    every other occurrence of ‘ae’ in the series has been pronounced ‘ay’, why pronounce it ‘egg’ and introduce a (very annoying) inconsistency?

    You realized that it was a little girl who said that?

  277. Thomas
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    magnuskn,

    Please hide your spoilers with a tag. Yes I’m aware this is the book-reader recap, but all the spoilers that came before your comment have been hidden properly.

  278. Ser Tahu
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    coronaking,

    yes, but I felt like ranting :P.

  279. Mashiara
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    scout,

    Wonderful post, and absolutely right.

    Yes! I love that despite knowing that this moment undoubtedly happens once Bolton has already switched allegiance, he’s not going to miss an opportunity to mindfuck someone.

    Yeah, like father, like bastard son! And not to mention his subtle way of not really caring that Jaime lost his hand. Yes Bolton takes the stump from around Jaime’s neck, but he doesn’t admonish Locke for the actual act of maiming the kingslayer.

  280. barak
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    hivernale,

    She’s a redhead, perhaps she has armpit hair it’s just very thin/light…
    (This reminds me of Rome S2 where Pullo’s lover did in fact have thick, dark armpit hair and viewers kept freaking out about it, it was hilarious.)

    Ser Tahu,

    Actually, about Daenerys, this has been bugging me since season 1 – they’re NOT pronouncing it correctly. They’re pronouncing it as if it was “Denaerys.” And even worse, I’m sure this is GRRM’s fault, since they consulted him on the pronunciation of the names.

    The first time I heard “Daenerys” pronounced according to how it’s written was in Valyrian.

  281. Hot Pie Hole
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    The Greatsteve,

    Pretty sure that there are no Garlan and Willas in the TV version.

  282. Unbowd UnbentUnHodor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    awesome episode apart from the gay scene, felt a bit awkward. and also im ok with selyse being bonkers but i didnt like the test tube babies.. to far

  283. Daniel
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    I still can’t get over the ‘half the forces thing.’ I get the casterly rock thing, might actually be cool if the RW changes to a massacre outside casterly rock, but come on karstarks = half the forces? :/

  284. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    The Purist,

    Linda, you can stop now, everything will be fine.

  285. barak
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Daniel,

    Most likely others went with them as well. The Karstarks are influential.

  286. Mike
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    WildSeed, Yes where is Grey Wind, Summer , Ghost and Nymeria? There are some things that happen with Nymeria after the RW that is important or will they fore go this and have Ayra find Catelyn`s body instead of Nymeria(Through Ayra`s warq bond with her Direwolf ) All the Starks can warq or will it be only Bran that can? Darn it A Man must Know!! …..

  287. Aaron
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Love the Loras scene <3 finally some naked men, good for the homophobics who watch the show ;)

    too bad we didn't get a Jaime frontal though lol

    What was up with Selyse's test tubes? The only other time I went WTF with this series was the lesbian sex practice scene. They just looked sci-fi and out of place…

  288. magnuskn
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    Thomas:
    magnuskn,

    Please hide your spoilers with a tag. Yes I’m aware this is the book-reader recap, but all the spoilers that came before your comment have been hidden properly.

    Sorry for the spoiler ( although, as you said, this is the book readers section, so it ain’t a real spoiler ), but I can’t edit my post anymore, that option is only available for ten minutes after posting.

  289. Ash
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Where is episode summary?

  290. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Mister Stark,

    I don’t disagree at all, it’s just that in the books, when she’s a very young child, her own septa tells her that no man will love her because she’s so ugly, that her future husband will only marry her for her lands, not for herself. That’s part of the reason why the relationship that forms between Brienne and Jaime is so precious – because he’s the first man who values her for her. And all those qualities you listed that the realm cannot abide in a woman he admires in her. But just as much, he doesn’t care that she isn’t beautiful. Her lack of beauty doesn’t affect her value. And after seeing the bath scene, you cannot tell me that THIS Brienne is ugly! GC has curves Brienne isn’t supposed to, and I’m just curious how that will play out with Brienne’s emotional growth in the future eps. She obviously does NOT have: non-existent breasts, a waist broader than a man’s, teeth too big for her mouth, etc. She looks womanly naked, just bigger than most women (in Westeros or here). And I don’t care how much value a society places on being petite: I might feel conspicuous if I looked like Brienne, but I wouldn’t feel ugly!

  291. Vid
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    There’s a loophole in the series. Aren’t knights of the king’s guard supposed to be stripped of all lands etc.? I mean it was so with Jamie (in the series too). What about Loras? Or has he not been named into the King’s guard yet? Anyway, it’s not a deal breaker, and it’s better to have less characters (Willis isn’t that important, yes?)

  292. coronaking
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Vid: There’s a loophole in the series. Aren’t knights of the king’s guard supposed to be stripped of all lands etc.? I mean it was so with Jamie (in the series too). What about Loras? Or has he not been named into the King’s guard yet? Anyway, it’s not a deal breaker, and it’s better to have less characters (Willis isn’t that important, yes?)

    Loras is no member of the Kingsguard in the series (yet). Bryan Cogman even confirmed it last week.

  293. John
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    The Red River Viper,

    Edric seems like a reasonable name. Remember that Edric Storm (who doesn’t seem to exist in show world) was the son of a Baratheon and a Florent, just like this abortive Edric. Presumably the name is in use in one of the two families.

  294. Kroket
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Another good episode! Not quite as good as the last one but there were some great scenes. Jaime’s monologue was fantastic. I loved the Hound – Beric battle (didnt expect it at the beginning)
    From a personal point of view i was really hoping for a Rose Leslie full frontal there ;) but apparently she shaves downstairs as well… That would have looked weird i guess…

    The tubes were creepy and felt ‘out of place’. I did really like Shireen though esp her filling in as Patchface! Girl can sing as well!

    As for the Tyrell succession. Probably Willas was killed by the Red Viper here. Seems likely. Loras will join Kingsguard not to marry Cersei (another good idea already posted). Finally Garlan will now be Loras younger brother at Highgarden so they haven an heir.

    3) IT IS PRONOUNCED AY-GON NOT EGG-ON

    Yes… I was annoyed by this as well… I always pronounced the ‘proper’ way.

  295. John
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Villane,

    I don’t see any particularly essential story need for Loras to join the Kingsguard at all.

  296. The Winter Rose
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Another great episode!
    I think the Brienne and Jaime bath scene was my favorite followed by the introduction of Grey Worm.

  297. Winter Is Coming
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Ash:
    Where is episode summary?

    Last night I had to bang out this recap in about 20 minutes and then join the Game of Owns team for their post-episode podcast (which will be posted later today), so I didn’t have time to do my customary episode summary. Presumably everyone reading had just watched the episode, so I felt it was okay to skip it. I do like to have the summaries there though, for the benefit of those who may re-read these recaps later on down the line, as a reminder of what exactly happened in each episode.

    So, all that to say, I will add the summary later today.

  298. Daniel
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Oh, and.
    Where is the Greatjon?! :o

  299. John
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    LordDavos12: As a straight male, I have no problem saying those are both handsome gentlemen.That comment came off a tad homophobic.

    Just a tad?

  300. Lavignac
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    2) “The only person left with an army strong enough to take Casterly Rock is Walder Frey’ … and the entirety of the Vale, which is ruled by your Aunt -_-. Dammit Robb!

    I thought the same at first, but I rewinded, and he definitely says the only army in THIS kingdom. The Vale is its own. Robb is in the riverlands. Arguably we have been told that the Riverlands is the eight of seven kingdoms… but still, that framed it so he meant “the only army within reasonable distance that we could surprise the Lannisters by marching it to CasterlyRock”

    Unrelated:

    I know Shireen is cute as a button, but come on: she cannot compete with Arya for showing off a child actor’s talent: Cute as a button is the only thing usually asked of child actors, while Arya has to display a range of dramatic emotions, actions and relationships.

  301. Caspar0
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Bryan Cogman’s command as a writer is superb. He doesn’t try to rewrite or paraphrase GRRM work in his own voice. He takes the best scenes from the book intact, and writes around them in fantastic emulation of the tone and voice of GRRM’s own work. It felt like to me, that every scene last night that wasn’t in the books, could’ve been. I can usually feel the difference from the other show writers, as good as they may be. Hats off to Mr. Cogman, best written episode of the series so far.

  302. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    I hate that word. “Phobia” means fear. Many people just don’t like gay stuff. They’re not afraid of it, they just don’t like it.

    So, Homophobic is inaccurate. Maybe, Homo-not-like-ic?

    Aaron:
    Love the Loras scene <3 finally some naked men, good for the homophobics who watch the show ;)

    too bad we didn’t get a Jaime frontal though lol

    What was up with Selyse’s test tubes? The only other time I went WTF with this series was the lesbian sex practice scene. They just looked sci-fi and out of place…

  303. Jimmy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Loras may not be in Joffrey’s Kingsguard, but he was in Renly’s. So, assuming the same rules apply, he shouldn’t be the heir of Highgarden anymore. One would expecrt that at least his family should not have allowed him to join Renly’s kingsguard back then.

  304. Yes I Have Your Axe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Gods, I can’t wait for this season’s soundtrack.

  305. Ren Snow
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    TheWoodOfTheMorning:
    So Garlan & Willas Tyrell are officially out.Tywin is such a bro-chief.

    Tywin’s line is obscure enough so Willas and Garlan can pop up as younger brothers, or even Loras being “heir to Highgarden” after Willas. Just remember how in Season 2 it was implied Shireen didn’t exist, yet here we have her

  306. Ser Tahu
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Jimmy,

    but Renly’s kingsguard is disbanded, and any vows that they made to Renly are now null and void.

  307. Lavignac
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    It seemed reasonable to me to simplify the Tyrell family so that Loras is part of both wedding schemes.

    However, down the line… when Loras joins the Kingsguard (does he have choose it on his own by the way? Can Cersei not simply whisper to Joffrey to decree his selection as a gift to Marge?), what will become of the Tyrell succession? Will they mention a younger spare brother in Highgarden? Or make it so Margaery will bring it into his royal husband’s hands?

  308. Siobhán
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Very good episode!

    Things I really liked:
    * Hound-Beric fight. Freaking amazing. There was a real sense of danger throughout the whole scene, it was wonderfully correographed, and the Hound’s fear of fire really showed. Loved all the little details that attended the fight, such as the Brotherhood taking his gold but promising to repay it after the war.
    * Arya and Gendry. Really heartfelt scene here. It’s clear why Gendry makes the choice he does, but all the same my heart went out to Arya when she said “I could be your family.” The acting talent here is incredible.
    * Arya with Thoros and Beric. I’m glad they left in her asking if Thoros could bring back someone without a head. It was such a logical thing for her to ask in the books and it makes just as much sense here.
    * Jaime and Brienne. Incredible scene in the bath. I felt like the impact was a little lessened for me because of his killing of Alton. Some people in the discussion thread have made comments that help me to make more sense of it, but I’m still not 100%. However, it couldn’t take away the fact that this scene was superbly acted by Nik and Gwen.
    * Shireen. She was wonderfully acted, a real spot of sunshine in a gloomy place. I approve of the apparent decision to condense her and Patchface. There’s only room for so many characters in a screen adaptation.
    * Robb chopping off Karstark’s head in one clean blow. It seems appropriate to contrast this with Theon’s beheading of Rodrick. Theon showed what a destructive path he was on partially through letting others convince him to kill when he really didn’t want to, and then botched the act. Robb had everyone else advising him not to execute Karstark but didn’t let others sway him, and then completed the act in a single, clean strike. I think that the message intended here (no spoiler in this sentence, just my opinion) is that Robb will be more successful than Theon. He knows who he is and he’s being true to himself even if it’s difficult. I know that this is different from the books, where Robb needs a few cuts as well, but I think it was a good choice. The music in the background, the same as during Rodrick’s execution, I think helps to cement the association with Theon and draws attention away from the fact that honourable Ned killed cleanly as Robb did but still ended up losing out personally. Many of the extra details in the books help to camoflage that the Red Wedding is going to happen, but the show runners have to pick out what’s most important when they’re adapting the books. This can lead to some future events becoming more obvious. Tweaking other aspects here and there can help to make things less obvious again.
    * Tyrion and Olenna. Really enjoyable scene. Olenna continues to be hilarious and get lots of killer lines. I think that Tyrion does suffer a bit by comparison, but I suppose he’s still getting used to his job as Master of Coin so he’s more unsure of himself than usual. I do feel that the show has had quite a few scenes of him being upstaged or undermined by other characters in this season and I hope there will be some others that balance things out a bit.
    * Small scene with Littlefinger and Sansa. I have not been a huge fan of Aidan Gillen’s take on Littlefinger compared with the book character; he seems to deliver his lines like he’s reading them by rote, with less spontaneity, playfulness and general enjoyment of the game. But here he came across as a combination of a creeper and a lost romantic, somehow. Even though he knew Sansa was holding back on him, somehow it seemed that her saying that she wouldn’t want him to be in danger, that she was thinking of his wellbeing, was something he liked to hear. Creepy and sad and slightly but only slightly touching.

    Things I thought were fine but not amazing
    * Cave scene with John and Ygritte. It was okay, well-acted for what it was, but I felt as if there hadn’t been much development in their relationship to bring it to this level at this point. I can see how it is informed into the need to prove himself which was emhpasised in the scene with Orell and Tormund. There’s a lot about it that does work well, in fact… I’m just not totally convinced. I mean maybe all the relationship build-up that was really needed was already done in Season 2. I don’t know.

    Things I’m not very keen on
    * The speed with which Sansa’s plot is moving. Really, it only takes one episode for the Tyrells’ plot to be found out (loose lips from Loras sinking this ship?!) and countered? I guess that the Tyrells have been showing huge competence in other areas and it shouldn’t seem like they succeed at everything and their opponents always fail. All the same, the pacing just makes them seem really incompetent here… It does seem strange for it to take only one episode for Littlefinger and the Lannisters to learn of the plot, but the Tyrells won’t be able to hear of Tyrion’s wedding with Sansa for three episodes. I understand that the Tyrion-Sansa wedding is due to happen in Episode 8. Also not really a fan of how easy it was to get Loras to spill the beans.

  309. Nicole
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    I really liked this episode. I thought Arya rocked it! Also, I was impressed with Jon Snow’s part in the cave. Ygritte seems a little off balance to me, her character in the show isn’t believable for me, but Kit did a great job and looked super hot in that cave hot tub. Why aren’t all the wildlings in there getting their soak on?

    My favorite scene though was when Grey Worm told Dany he would keep his name, that it was lucky because of her. I cried, for real. Dany’s storyline just seems so much more significant and meaningful, at this point, for me than the other characters. Although, I didn’t feel that way when reading the books. Might have a little something to do with knowing what happens to a lot of these characters, but I think it has more to do with D & D being let in on how all this is going to end, and the fact that Dany is going to be the “main character” if such a thing were possible, in the end.

  310. B
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    nich,

    I think the Hound is another one who’s moral ambiguity is very “human”.

  311. Jaqen is Q
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    For those who watch OtakuAssemble’s reviews:

    Larry’s reaction to the marriage plots:

    Hilarious!

  312. Red Hound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    We dislike many things because deep inside we fear them. This is especially true when we have a strong dislike towards something. You can still dislike something for other reasons, but that’s why there are terms like homophobia or xenophobia. The poster above (Arthur) has a strong opinion on the matter and I assure you that there’s an underlying reason why.

    The episode was one of my favourites so far. It felt good from the beginning to the end, although finishing with the double marriage opportunities felt not strong enough. But very good in general. I liked the touch of playing Theon’s theme when Robb was performing the execution, also under a heavy rain, also with a defiance attitude from the executeé (made up word).

  313. Lina
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    SO MUCH HAPPENED. And most of it was good.

    Loved:
    -The Cave: This fight scene was amazing – acting, cinematography, stunts and choreography. Just so cool. Beric Dondarrion and Thoros are perfect, even if a little different from the books.
    -Anything with Arya: Maisie just continues to blow me away. Every SINGLE one of her scenes in this episode was gut-wrenching. “Can you bring back a man without a head?” “I could be your family!” I checked the passage in the book when she says goodbye to Gendry and the show’s dialogue was ten times better. That scene was perfect!
    -Karstark’s Beheading: I think Richard Madden did a great job of playing the two sides to Robb in this scene – the King who wants to be like his father and dole out justice, and the boy who is shaken by what he just did and nervous about what it will mean.
    -Jaime’s monologue: One of the best scenes in the entire series. The writing, the delivery from Nikolaj, Gwen’s silent acting, even the cinematography. I was actually partially distracted during that scene because I was looking at what a beautiful image it was – the background of the bathroom, the reflection in the water, the lighting on the actors. This is THE moment for Jaime Lannister, a baptism of sorts. He was reborn in that scene.
    -Shireen: She’s cute! I like her friendship with Davos, as they get to kill three birds with one stone: (1) sort of replace Patchface; (2) teach Davos to read; and (3) (presumably) help give Stannis a reason to reconsider his judgment of Davos. I do hope they explain greyscale soon though, because I fear non-readers may think she’s like half-zombie or something (my roommate said Shireen reminded her of Resident Evil…)
    -The Lannister meeting: I just really love any reason to see Cersei get one-upped. Lena did a good job with the acting, moving swiftly from defiant (“I’m not some broodmare…”) to pleading (“Please don’t make me do it again, Father!”). I’d ALMOST feel bad for Cersei if she wasn’t such a smug, wicked person to Tyrion. Dinklage owns, as usual. I love the allusion to Tysha. :( All these bits are getting filed away for what happens at the end of ASOS!
    -Grey Worm’s Intro: This scene was filled with such intense emotion, especially on Emilia’s part. You can see everything Dany is feeling in her face. They’re really setting her up nicely as mhysa.

    Good:
    -Jorah and Barristan: Quiet scenes like this help flesh out the world. I like that they have these two getting along a bit instead of always opposing each other (I think it gives Jorah a bit more depth). I like how it also sets up the idea of Dany as a ruler against someone like her father or Robert.
    -Selyse: I actually sort of like how creepy they made her. I think she’s severely unhinged and illogical, and I can see why that would distance Stannis from her. In the books I found her more so just really annoying, but in the show she definitely seems like a full-on nutjob and religious fanatic.

    Didn’t like:
    -Jon/Ygritte: I am so sad to say it, but I didn’t care for this scene. Something just felt really off – the pacing, the dialogue, the emotion. All very “Nicholas Sparks in Westeros.” I liked this part in the book, but I just don’t think it translated very well on screen. :( I don’t even know what could have been done to improve it, and hopefully it will be better upon second viewing.
    -The Marriage Plot: It’s like ping-pong. Bouncing around from player to player. Too quick, too jumpy.

  314. Nicole
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Oh, and I want to add that Robb was EXCELLENT this episode. I finally felt like they got the viewers invested in Robb’s character. I was feeling some pangs of fear for sure, and Richard did a really stellar job with the execution scene.

  315. B
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Siobhán,

    I agree with you completely on all points you mentioned about the Jon snow storyline. My thoughts exactly in fact.

  316. Thomas
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    magnuskn,

    ‘s okay then! Something for next time.

    As a general comment… why does it take so much longer for the Newbie recap to be written? Seems a bit sad that us non-book-readers have no place to discuss the episode without chance of plotlines being spoiled.

  317. GeekFurious
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Ed:
    I hate that word.“Phobia” means fear.Many people just don’t like gay stuff.They’re not afraid of it, they just don’t like it.

    So, Homophobic is inaccurate.Maybe, Homo-not-like-ic?

    We call them bigots. Because that’s what they are.

  318. NoxAeturnus
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    I get the Loras replacing his brothers plot, and I’m fine with it. It makes really good sense. What bugs me a bit is that he isn’t Kingsguard. One of the things that I found most endearing about his (book) character was when Tyrion asked him why he chose the white at such a young age and Loras responded with “When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.” The spy scene from last night served a greater purpose, but if it had been handled differently or left out they still might have managed to get that one liner in there. Oh well. Not a big deal that it’s not in the show, but that line always stuck with me. I’m interested to see where this Tyrell/Lannister plotting is going, mostly because it has strayed far enough from the book at this point for me to not really know what’s going to happen next. It’s a feeling I like.

    Everything else in this episode was super, especially the bath scene. The impact of Jaime’s bath scene was lost a bit because of him killing Alton Lannister last season. I have friends who basically see him as irredeemable after that and don’t really care what he says, to which I keep stuttering, “But Jaime… he isn’t… it’s not as black and… oh go read the book.” If that scene had played out with some random ally rather than a kinsman, it might have been seen totally differently. I usually like to imagine that Alton Lannister didn’t really exist.

    Edit: I also wanted to add that I’m probably the only person not impressed by Rose Leslie. I think she’s overacting the part and forcing it too much. It’s killing Ygritte for me.

  319. Jared
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    It would have been impossible for this episode to top the ending of last week’s “And Now His Watch Is Ended”, but I actually think “Kissed By Fire” was better structured and better paced, and ultimately just as rewarding. Jaime’s confession to Brienne in the tub is in the Top 5 moments that this show has ever done – perfectly transported from the book onto the screen. I was mildly disappointed that they gave Jaime’s sassy line about his hand to Locke, but only mildly – ultimately that kind of lip doesn’t fit with Jaime’s current state of mind as depicted on the show.

    A smaller moment, but I LOVED how Roose Bolton tormented Jaime by drawing out his fearful speculation about Cersei’s fate before finally letting him know that she was alive and well. Then to see Jaime just collapsing in sheer relief, all the strength he had been forcing himself to project leaving him in an instant … wow. It was a perfect set-up for the emotional release he would allow himself to experience later. Even better, it effectively conveyed just how composed yet dangerous Roose Bolton is. Michael McElhatton is going to be a true pleasure to watch going forward in this series.

    Rose Leslie … damn. They’ve clearly got classes dedicated to maintaining core strength North of the Wall. That girl is toned. And the Lord’s Kiss … I’m grinning. One of the best scenes in book, and they nailed it.

    One final note: at the risk of presenting a somewhat unpopular opinion among the purists, I strongly endorse the decision to cut Patchface and fold his rhymes into Shireen’s character. In the novels, I was generally able to see the merit in Martin’s numerous fools-as-prophets characters, even if I don’t particularly like them. But Patchface was an always an exception. I hated that character in the novels. HATED him. Every time he showed up, I wanted to reach through the page and chuck him back into the sea (where the birds have scales for feathers, I know, I know, oh, oh, Oh My God kill me).

    I recognize that he has his uses (the “Fool’s Blood, King’s Blood” line was a big hint of foreshadowing that I hope manages to stay in the show, somehow), but there was no reason it all had to be presented in such an irritating package. Coming from Shireen over the end credits (Kerry Ingram was EXCELLENT, and I hope that we see more of her), those words were haunting, foreboding, and strangely beautiful. This is one instance where, at least in my opinion, the show has remarkably improved upon the source material.

  320. Lina
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Panicintrinsica,

    I was thinking the same thing. Three fetuses (with one named Edric – ha!), and Selyse is such a fanatic. It’s almost blatantly obvious when you ask yourself why they’d introduce Selyse with three babies in jars. It’s way creepier than leeches, and I think it helps reinforce the idea that blood magic is bad magic.

  321. B
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    I MISS THIS SO MUCH TOO! Why are they leaving these elements out? I thought it important to both Jon and Arya’s story lines! Ahh, perhaps it really means nothing in the end as relayed to D&D from GRRM?

  322. Bergey
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    There’s nothing I can say that hasn’t already been said. Awesome episode. All I am going to add is: Rose Leslie, please marry me. I am in love.

  323. Amy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    I would have loved this episode if not for the Loras scene. The show has always written him (and the Loras/Renly relationship) poorly but this takes the cake. The scene was an OOC disgrace.

  324. Anne
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe people are having problems about the pacing of this episode. I thought this was an example of how an episode of this show should ALWAYS be paced. To me, anyway, there was no “filler” in this episode. The transitions from scene to scene made much more sense. the scenes where lined up where they would stay in one area/or with one set of characters for 3-4 scenes in a row and didn’t abruptly jump from place to place. it was quick paced, with equal parts action and information, and slight changes made sense. this episode was also an example of how you can make compelling television while also sticking very close to the books. Most of the dialog was from the page.

    it was so quick paced that in the scene with Cersei and Littlefinger, a line of her dialog actually starts a split second before her mouth start moving (they cut to the back of her head but the dialog starts while she still has that shit eating grin on her face, haha)

    I’m not a book purist, but in every D&D episode, I always find that about 3 scenes in each episode that are either slow/ don’t make sense/are filler,/are not necessary/are clumsy/or a combination of the aforementioned. I didn’t feel that way about any scene of this episode, not a one.

    I thought it was close to perfection. The acting, the direction, the editing of the scenes, the WRITING, everything about it was excellent in my opinion. I loved last weeks episode, but the first 30 minutes of it I had some problems with a couple scenes.

    Seriously, I liked this episode better than last weeks. and it’s definitely in my top five episodes of the series so far.

    Brian Cogman gets it, totally and completely, while I think D&D are still figuring “it” out, three seasons later. Don’t get wrong, I have seen brilliance from D&D, but also some complete shite scenes at least once an episode. it’s my opinion that Cogman’s skills as a writer are slightly above D&D’s, and I wish he would write more, maybe like 3 episodes a season.

  325. Drew
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Kroket,

    Shereens pronouncation of ‘Eggon’, (which has always been pronounced correctly when represented elsewhere in the show) is a nod to Egg, the nickname given to Aegon, the Fifth of his name, and former King of the Andels and the First Men, by his brother Aemon (the maester of the nights watch) in his youth …it is common of young people such as Shereen to mispronounce names and words… get a grip

    also on another note, I wish people could comprehend time more abstractly, just because the lannister meeting follows ten minutes after the karstark beheading in real time, doesnt mean that its the case in the show – tywin didnt require the internet to catch up on Robs comings and goings, time is reperesented differently in an hour long show that has ALOT of events to cover… The littlefinger jet pack jokes from last season angered me so much, as will the melisandre ones… I expect to come

  326. Shock Me
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    So more of an allergy then? Or is it like a picky eater?

  327. Hawk
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Great episode overall…nailed the bathtub scene w/ Jaime and Brienne, which almost makes up for how they butchered Jaime in season two…having him kill his cousin was a poor and sloppy choice…would have been better to show him killing one of Karstark’s boys…

    Those of you whining about how “bloated” ASOIAF is (Nich) are MISSING the story being developed in those chapters you consider to be fat, and considering that, I would suggest Harry Potter as a better choice of reading material for you…ASOIAF is not just high fantasy, it’s also a mystery, and the elements of mystery writing in the story are what makes it stand out from other schlock fantasy…

  328. Dickon Manwoody
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    There were so many moments pulled straight from the book in this episode, it made me so happy. But I had 2 problems. 1. I know they have to try and show how bat crazy Selyse is in a very short amount of time, but talking to fetus jars was just so…..out of place. It looked like sci-fi or something. And 2. Loras. I don’t care that he’s openly gay in the show, and I don’t care that they show those love scenes. But the death of Renly really impacted him, and I just can’t see him hopping on some new guy as soon as the moment presents itself. That just seemed so shallow, and I know it probably has to do with appeasing a demographic, but I felt they were really doing the Loras character injustice.

    Other than that, GREAT episode! Beric vs. the Hound, Gendel’s cave and the bath scene. Every scene with Arya! Olenna and Tyrion, god I love that woman! And Tywin being a boss. Even the short scene with Dany was relevant and great.

  329. Rogue Agent
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    JamesL:
    nich,

    The fact that the whole plot isn’t even working because nonreaders have no idea what is going on so they are completely unengaged to that story. That whole plot seems so separated and irrelevant to the story right now. I really don’t want to be checking in with Ramsay torturing Theon the rest of the season but if they do plan on doing that I hope they start explaining to the audience what is going on with that whole story.

    They have already provided visual clues this season, as well as some scenes last season. On rewatch, it’s rewarding to put the pieces together.

  330. Tyler
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    This may have been mentioned (haven’d read all 400 comments), but if so…it need to be mentioned again!
    Can we all agree Charles Dance as Tywin is one of the best acting jobs in basically anything ever? Everyone in the show is fantastic, but this season Dance is seriously killing it.

  331. Mister Stark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    scout,

    Scout,
    Well true, and we come to a first world problem. Most actresses are attractive.
    I don’t think she will match up with the “book” Brienne, it’s hard to find an actress that would fit that bill.
    So I think GC is in “spirit” close to Brienne, at least.
    But I think the idea of gender roles and gender bias would play a part in some of her psychological make up.
    But it’s a good question about how it will bear on future “show” Brienne character growth.

  332. The Winter Rose
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Nicole:
    I really liked this episode.I thought Arya rocked it! Also, I was impressed with Jon Snow’s part in the cave.Ygritte seems a little off balance to me, her character in the show isn’t believable for me, but Kit did a great job and looked super hot in that cave hot tub.Why aren’t all the wildlings in there getting their soak on?

    Yeah I was having problems with Ygritte too. I just feel like she suddenly became head over heels romantically in love with Jon immediately. I wish there was a little more of a build up to make me actually believe it when she was like “I don’t ever want to leave this cave”. So the pacing in that relationship seems very rushed and as a result hard for it to come off as terribly realistic. Just seems very forced at this point and yes, I was thinking the same thing about the hot springs – I just found it hard to believe they would have had that whole place to themselves for longer than a minute given how cozy it looked. Yeah, it’s nitpicking, but whatevs. Still loved the episode though :)

  333. Michael K
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Sorry if someone else has mentioned this, too many comments to go through them all, but I think there is still a chance that Loras will end up on the Kings Guard. We already know the Tyrells are plotting to kill Joff to protect Margery but they also know that won’t be enough to keep her same from the Lannisters. Loras joins the Kings Guard for this very reason in the books, avoiding a marriage with Cersi would be even more incentive.

    It would also be a good way for the Tyrells to double cross the Lannisters on a marriage plot and get revenge for destroying the plot to marry Sansa to Loras. The Tyrells don’t want to give the Lannisters any power in the south, just like the Lannisters don’t want the Tyrells to have power in the north.

  334. realitytripz
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Great episode. I wouldn’t count Willas or Garlan out just yet. They can still bring them on as younger brothers if absolutely necessary.

  335. Hawk
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    I enjoyed a laugh when Jaime said he “trusted” Brienne given what’s coming up in that storyline!

  336. Mister Stark
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Jaqen is Q,

    Larry’s take on the show is amazing sometimes.
    But then I think sometimes his desire for character progression is insane.
    Sometimes it’s slower than what some want.
    But I love Larry, I think he’s spot on sometimes.
    And he will surely be amazed in the future. eh?

  337. Hawk
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Michael K,

    It’s pretty obvious Cersei will have Joffrey name Loras to the Kingsguard so that she will not have to marry him…

    this will play into the tension they have set up to happen between Tywin and Joffrey…

  338. Mike
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    B,

    That could be true but still it would be nice if we could have a little more direwolf action

  339. zambi76
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Great episode. I wouldn’t count Willas or Garlan out just yet. They can still bring them on as younger brothers if absolutely necessary.

    They could just inverse the Tyrell children line:

    Willas (24), Garlan (22), Loras (17), Marg (16)
    Marg (24), Loras (22), Garlan (17), Willas (16)

    Although that would make Garlan the heir after Loras. Yeah, I fear Garlan is out then.
    But if they want to keep the Oberyn and Willas backstory that could even make that more acute if it wasn’t that long ago that Willas was crippled. And gives Mace that “nice” stage-father vibe even more so

  340. msd
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    The Loras scene didn’t bother me too much because well, it was just sex. I think further down the line his character will make it clear that his heart, rather than his loins, is not up for grabs post-Renly.

    Loved this episode so much. The pacing and structure were fantastic. I wish Bryan Cogman wrote more episodes.

  341. Prince of Pentos
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Just like Edric and Gendry, who have been combined in the Gendry character, Garlan, Willas and Loras have all been combined in the Loras character, which I think is fine, all things considered, as it makes the love-politics plots much easier to follow if one hasn’t read the books.

    My favorite scenes:

    1. Certainly the most touching scene for me was Shireen visiting Ser Davos in prison. It was one of the few scenes with real emotion in it, not coincidentally also because it involves a child. This lonely and physically scarred little girl, with a crazy mother, helping this grief-stricken and imprisoned illiterate man to read, was quite heart touching for me. But anyway.

    2. The Arya and Gendry scene was also nice in this I suppose, even if ending in a slightly awkward note whereby both seem to desire the same thing, but are somehow still at odds. Sure, Arya wants Gendry to go join Robb, but actually, in the book, Gendry doesn’t state that Arya will be his lady — a bit presumptions? Was a bit strange. But oh well, it’s o.k.

    3. I quite enjoyed the Loras-his new “squire”-Sansa-Littlefinger sequence (in contrast to the WiC.net recap writer above), even if that wasn’t in the book. In the book, eternally in love with Renly, Loras does not engage with anyone else, but I thought this change was fine, showing a bit how deep Littlefinger’s “sneakiness” goes, which was great.

    4. Never mind, but I also enjoyed the squire’s line when he says, as regards the wives of the husbands he engages with, “In my experience, they rarely do… [have the slightest notion] [about their husbands' bisexuality, and so on].” This was epic. The ultimate revenge on all those self-satiated, spoiled, inflexible, uncaring, conceited yet oblivious wealthy ladies… Ah… Just saying. Anyway.

    5. The Tyrion-Tywin-Cercei scene was also great, the first time we see Tyrion really resisting his father. Foreshadow. It was a bit strange to see Tywin become so angry though with Cercei — in the book it’s Cercei who becomes quite ruffled, and Tywin who calmly lists her potential matches: Willas of Highgarden, Theon of the Iron Islands, and I forget the third, someone in Dorne? Or Kevin’s stepfather, the chicken-sigil oaf? The entire scene was glorious, but, I actually thought Cercei’s acting wasn’t that superb. Her “angry look” at the end was a bit off.

    6. Grey Worm-Dany-Ser Mormont-Ser Barristan was all great stuff. To book readers, I’m sure you could see the double intentions to all of Ser Mormont’s questions… :-) Well-made scenes, and interesting Moroccan scenery.

  342. direhound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    The DarkStar,

    Actually Tomard wasn’t aborted, apparently. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tomard

  343. loco73
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Thank you for replying. I don’t remember that happening last year though!

  344. Prince of Pentos
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    My less favorite scenes:

    1. Robb deciding to attack Casterly Rock. The scene was well filmed, well acted, well directed, but the whole strategy aspect didn’t make much sense. He’ll take their home… and then what? This was a needless change from the book. In the book, of course, sorry to sound the purist here, but Robb had already campaigned in the Westerlands (Lannister homelands, Casterly Rock region) and returned from there. I’m not sure why they couldn’t just show him trying to return to recapture the North, as in the book. It would have made for a more emotional, realistic, and even determined scene, and, to still give Robb the image of a military genius (as he has largely been presented to be in the show), he could have been shown to send the Blackfish with a small separate force to pillage the Westerlands, “to take their home,” while he’s marching North. That would probably have fit in just as well with the story in the book, where the Blackfish remains behind to hold Riverrun.

    2. Jaime’s raspy voice in the baths. I mean really, you couldn’t take a quick gulp of water before shooting that scene? It made understanding him a bit more difficult. The scene was largely great, though.

    Thoughts anyone?

  345. House Minor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Isabelle: WildSeed: Agree, the placement of these scenes and episode pacing was not as great this episode.

    I know what you’re saying, and it was a little jumpy, but if the scenes appeared later in the episode, perhaps a large potion of the audience would be so busy waiting for those iconic moments that it’s only half-watching the other scenes. This way, the audience enjoys the scenes right at the beginning and can then properly focus its attention and absorb the material that follows.

    In regards to how the scenes are layed out, not just in this episode, but the season and series in general, I was watching an interview with D&D and they talked about how when the show is all said in done with, they want people to treat it as one 80+ hour movie, instead of 80+ 1 hour episodes. When you take that into context, as anyone who has binge-watched the show can tell you, regardless of whether a seen was at the beginning or the end of an episode, I believe the preceeding or upcoming scene plays more of a role in which scene they start with.

    Last week having ended with Dany gaining her army and going directly into the cave fight scene was brilliant. If watching it in the context of a very very long movie, its perfect.

  346. fuelpagan
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    nich,

    The way I see Jaime’s character is how damaged he is by the label of Kingslayer. To have his most honorable act degraded and viewed as a most evil act forever shapes him. He does care, and you see the regret when pushing Bran out the window or having to kill Alton. But somehow he knows that act will never come close to the black mark he has for killing the Mad King.

    My take on it is that if Jaime had received the honors for ridding the world of that horrible King, he wouldn’t be so quick to kill others to protect his own skin. But since his honor is already shit over being the Kingslayer, his skin and Cersei are all he has left to him and so that’s what he fights to protect. Brienne reawakens his sense of honor again and we start to see the character change. But he doesn’t truly change, he just goes back to being the person he wanted to be where honor actually mattered.

  347. Dogmayor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Prince of Pentos,

    He said she would be ‘my lady’ not in the sense that she would be his romantic partner, but in the sense that she is a highborn.

  348. Invorvial
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Another great episode! I really loved the look on Tyrion’s and Cersei’s faces in the end of the episode… and Karstark’s execution was very well done, poor Lannister boys…

    But… well, maybe it’s just me, but shouldn’t Shireen be “black of hair” as all the Baratheons are supposed to be? Because when trueborn daughter of Stannis Baratheon is blond (and her mother’s got dark hair – where would blond colour of her hair come from?), whole thing with “Robert’s” children (Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen) being blond as one of the proofs they aren’t Robert’s is a bit strange, when you count with fact that Cersei is blond so they have preconditions to be blond as well…

  349. dizzy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    I’m hoping the Tyrell’s can still have Loras take the kings guard position to counter the Lannister’s proposal. That’s a little better than the books IMO. I’m agreed on the handling of Jon Snow with most people here. They have just short-changed his whole story arc to this point.

  350. inthefade
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    haven’t read all the replies so not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but i’m confused about the show’s changing motivations for Robb to head to the twins. in season 1 episode 9 Walder Frey gave Robb his army (save 400 men to hold the twins), after Robb agreed to Walder’s conditions. I know the Frey’s joined the army in the books, and subsequently left after Robb returned from the Crag married to Jeyne Westerling, but I don’t recall them leaving in the TV show, thus the Frey army has been with them the entire time.

    Even if they had joined them and left, why would he expect them to rejoin his forces now? I think the writers simply forgot that the Frey army has already joined Robb’s forces and committed a minor “oops” here in changing his motivation for heading North.

  351. Mark Hogan
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Invorvial

    yeah that is inconsistent

    but I guess one could plead the case that perhaps her illness caused some hair pigmentation issue

    it’s a stretch but it’s the best possible rationalization I could think of

  352. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    B,

    I agree. And down the road we will see the Hound begin his road to redemption. Looking forward to it!

  353. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    GRRM says it there is no “correct’ way to pronounce the names and locations of ASoIaF and to pronounce things in a way that makes sense to you. So the shows pronunciation of any name or location is hardly cannon…

    Best Episode since season 1 as it pulled so much dialogue directly from the book. I’m really glad Shireen is in even if I also don’t agree w/ “test tube still born fetuses”.

    The Loras scene also felt really out of character to me. He seems really happy in the scene and as if he’s forgotten all about the “setting sun”.

    If they keep nailing the Jaime/Brienee stuff like this then I will forgive all of the shows previous missteps lol.

  354. Adam
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Been reading the articles/comments for a long time, but this is my first time commenting. I felt it was time just so i could share how amazed i was by this episode. To follow up an episode which included the huge Dracarys scene, and the Craster’s keep scene, plus some other great stuff, and actually make it an even better episode? Just a tribute to how great this show is. The Jaimie/Brienne scene was one of my favorites from the book, and was better than i imagined it. And the ending, fantastic.

  355. Richard
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Loved the episode, don’t have much to add to what others have said, but I was instantly miffed at hearing Theon Greyjoy/Ironborn/dead kids theme being recycled from Season 2 for Robb Stark beheading the Karstark leader. I just thought that was lazy composing/inappropriate music reuse (it makes sense to use The Lord Of Light theme for whoever worships that religion, for example), but maybe it’s my fault for assuming it was Theon’s theme and it’s really a theme for when things turn really bad for a character? Maybe it’s supposed to parallel both moments (both men making decisions to go over the line to which they can never come back from?). I’ll get over it, ha.

  356. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Prince of Pentos:
    My less favorite scenes:

    2. Jaime’s raspy voice in the baths. I mean really, you couldn’t take a quick gulp of water before shooting that scene? It made understanding him a bit more difficult. The scene was largely great, though.

    Thoughts anyone?

    I disagree. I think the broken voice perfectly captured the broken man. Anything else would’ve seemed polished, and Jaime was anything but polished in that scene.

  357. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Hear Hear!! Well said!

    Tyler:
    This may have been mentioned (haven’d read all 400 comments), but if so…it need to be mentioned again!
    Can we all agree Charles Dance as Tywin is one of the best acting jobs in basically anything ever? Everyone in the show is fantastic, but this season Dance is seriously killing it.

  358. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Yes, that would be more accurate.

    GeekFurious: We call them bigots. Because that’s what they are.

  359. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Luana: Selyse is a religious fanatic, not batshit insane.

    Same thing.

  360. Sig79
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    I’m pretty sure Cersie will convince Joffrey to make Loras part of his Kingsguard so she won’t have to marry him. Or she’ll find another way out of it.

  361. Red Hound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    You’re not wrong in the sense that it is Theon’s theme, but as I posted above, the scenario was very similar to Theon executing Ser Rodrik : http://youtu.be/wnP_-s_XwRQ?t=3m55s

    Very similar in many ways.

    Prisoner is brought in, discussion about what was done, defiance from the condemned, a third person trying to shed some light, a moment of silence broken by a thunder rumbling when it seems that the executor will change his mind, “What is dead may never die” theme playing under a heavy rain, even somehow similar “last words”.

  362. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    I think a big part of many people’s disappointment in this scene is that there’s virtually no chemistry between them. I don’t feel a thing.

    Dany and Drogo? They had MAD chemistry, it WORKED on screen!

    Jon & Ygritte? Zilch.

    The Purist:

    The relationship between Jon and Ygritte were rushed. They had Ygritte on most of Jon’s scenes in the expense of Halfhand in season 2. This season, they barely had scenes together, but now she wants the two of them to be together, just to show Rose Leslie naked, not that I’m complaining about that bit. The book developed the relationship much better. TV show fail.

  363. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    YES!! I TOTALLY agree! A scene can be framed perfectly, acted perfectly and written by God himself, but if you can’t understand the words the actor is saying it’s useless!!! Grrrr!!! My girlfriend kept asking, “What did he say?” I had to turn it WAY up.

    Prince of Pentos:

    2. Jaime’s raspy voice in the baths. I mean really, you couldn’t take a quick gulp of water before shooting that scene? It made understanding him a bit more difficult. The scene was largely great, though.

  364. Rinoa L. Trancy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    LordDavos12: Arthur:
    Ok I loved this episode everything was great except one scene…
    The Sir Loras gay scene…Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa…But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…
    Lol… But besides that nasty image the episode was amazing. Mr Cogman nailed it!

    As a straight male, I have no problem saying those are both handsome gentlemen. That comment came off a tad homophobic.

    If only all straight males were like you, sir Davos, I’d be a straight lady too. ;)
    (Nah, not really, but it’s indeed a relief to meet nice, normal and healthy people like yourself)

    Anyway, Mr. BRYAN COGMAN: you’re my god, my hero, my everything. Please, can you write all the scripts from now on? Pretty please?

    Man, all was immaculately perfect in this episode… the dialogues, the transitions, the acting (gosh, Nikolaj and Gwen, that whole scene brought tears to my eyes), the look in Emilia-Dany’s beautiful eyes, the gay love <3 … Just wow.

    I'm so happy I'm gonna donate all my savings to Bryan Cogman. Can anyone give me his bank account number, please? ;)

  365. Richard
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Where is Grey Wind?

    Grey Wind was in the background during the scene of the Karstark beheading, under the stone archway with some men. Unless you mean where has he been in general….

  366. El Beto
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    It is going to be so sad to see Richard Madden no more, he’s a great actor.
    Not so much as Nikolaj, god he nails it!
    Despite the many changes, I am liking this season (season 2 was just wrong). I’m not happy with the Loras’ adaptation, but hell, we all know nothing happens with him “marrying” Sansa or Cercei.

  367. Richard
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound:
    Richard,

    You’re not wrong in the sense that it is Theon’s theme, but as I posted above, the scenario was very similar to Theon executing Ser Rodrik : http://youtu.be/wnP_-s_XwRQ?t=3m55s

    Very similar in many ways.

    Prisoner is brought in, discussion about what was done, defiance from the condemned, a third person trying to shed some light, a moment of silence broken by a thunder rumbling when it seems that the executor will change his mind, “What is dead may never die” theme playing under a heavy rain, even somehow similar “last words”.

    Yeah you are probably right, it’s a scene parallel (for a lack of a better phrase). Would love to hear the composer’s thoughts on this!

  368. Gregory Kelton
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Let me get my one complaint out of the way quick: Fetus jars? Really!?!?

    Everything else was awesome, as usual.

  369. Gregory Kelton
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    The Red River Viper:
    In my opinion this episode was the best thus far. From Jaime’s monologue to Tywin’s scolding…..however, I did have issue with Selyse calling one of her stillborn Edric. Edric is Robert’s son. They could have used a thousand other names. Other than that, great episode, and hell of a way to kick it off with the battle between Beric and Sandor…..

    They were probably trying to hint at book readers: “If you’re waiting for Edric, don’t hold your breath. We had to cut him. We’re giving you this nod so you’ll know.”

  370. The Kingslayer
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is so awsome!! non readers should change their mind about him.
    episode was great, but that scene with Loras… shit.. stop gay propaganda
    and i don’t understand why the showrunners hate Stannis so much? they completely fucked up with him

  371. Dogmayor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany: Same thing.

    But is it crazy if the god is real?

  372. mags giantsbabe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Come on, Jon and Ygritte has AWESOME chemistry! It’s the one thing that saved Jon’s S2 story arc :)

  373. Alan
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    magnuskn:
    I must agree that the writers are dropping Jons arc something fierce. Not evento mention Tormund, whose whole boisterous personality seems to have been forgotten ( one single scene in the beginning is all we got ) and his friendship with Jon has fallen to the wayside. The rest of the show is amazing ( although I agree that the focus on Theon is really unnecessary ), but Jon, who is one of my favorite characters in the novels, really has lost a lot in the transition to the series. They need to build him up, very soon, or the promotion to Lord-Commander will seem completely unearned.

    I wonder if we’ll get to the siege of Castle Black this season? Things are progressing faster than I expected.

    One, the promotion to LC WAS completely unearned, at least until he warns Castle Black and commands the defense… which hasn’t happened yet. And those opportunities came entirely because he’s Stark-born. By this point in the novels, Jon is a whiny guy who is good with a sword and who is contemplating betraying his vows for real. He’s more or less there in the show. I wasn’t a huge fan of Season 2 Jon, but Season 3 has been almost exactly like the book.

    People are putting too much from later books into this point in the season. Tormund? Tormund is barely in Book 3! At this point, he’s had about one speech. He doesn’t take Jon up the Wall. He’s there with Mance once or twice. Most of Tormund comes later, and people are projecting.

    We’ve had more Jon and Ygritte flirting at this point in the show, if less sex. Just give them time on Jon’s story — people are skipping to the end. He’s not supposed to be super-competent yet.

  374. Jake Rogers
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    You could see Grey Wind right before Robb executes Karstark

  375. Walter_Eagle
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    I keep track of lines because I am a statistics obsessive. I am the guy who made these quizzes: http://www.sporcle.com/games/doctrine_duke/game-of-thrones-most-lines-s1

    Since we’re at the halfway point, characters with the most lines this season:

    1. Tyrion – 127
    2. Jaime – 77
    3. Cersei – 66
    4. Arya – 59
    5. Thoros – 55
    6. Margaery – 54
    6. Olenna – 54
    8. Brienne – 51
    9. Robb – 49
    9. Sansa – 49

    11. Daenerys – 47
    12. Missandei (translating is a double boost) – 46
    13. Tywin – 45
    14. Jon – 42
    15. Joffrey – 41
    16. Kraznys – 40
    17. Varys – 39
    18. Theon – 38
    19. Bronn – 37
    20. Davos -36 (he had a lot of dialogue in the premiere)

    21. Shae – 34
    21. Littlefinger – 34
    23. Jorah – 33
    24. Locke – 30
    25. Bran – 28

    … (other important people below the top 25:)
    26. Sandor – 27
    26. Stannis – 27
    31. Catelyn – 24
    34. Ygritte – 23
    41. Jeor – 18
    44. Melisandre – 15
    44. Samwell – 15

    As much as I like the early exploration into newer characters like Margaery, Thoros, and Olenna, I think much of it has come at the expense of the main characters. Last night was the first really strong episode for a lot of people this season, like Jon, Robb, Stannis, and Jorah. I hope they keep developing those who have been lacking it this season, like Bran, Theon, and Davos.

  376. Ser Hound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,

    It’s gay propaganda to see two men making out? Hmmm. This would never be said if it was two women….Just saying…

  377. Ser Hound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    magnuskn:
    I must agree that the writers are dropping Jons arc something fierce. Not evento mention Tormund, whose whole boisterous personality seems to have been forgotten ( one single scene in the beginning is all we got ) and his friendship with Jon has fallen to the wayside. The rest of the show is amazing ( although I agree that the focus on Theon is really unnecessary ), but Jon, who is one of my favorite characters in the novels, really has lost a lot in the transition to the series. They need to build him up, very soon, or the promotion to Lord-Commander will seem completely unearned.

    I wonder if we’ll get to the siege of Castle Black this season? Things are progressing faster than I expected.

    I’m still crossing my fingers for a good Tormund and Jon relationship to develop. I remember one of the actors mentioning their friendship in an interview, so I think more will develop with that soon.

  378. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    dizzy:
    I’m hopingthe Tyrell’s can still have Loras take the kings guard position to counter the Lannister’s proposal. That’s a little better than the books IMO. I’m agreed on the handling of Jon Snow with most people here. They have just short-changed his whole story arc to this point.

    I’m beginning to seriously question whether Loras as Kingsguard makes any sense anymore. Margaery is to be Queen. If Loras becomes a Kingsguard, the heirs to the Tyrells are only Margaery’s children. They will all be Lannisters… er, make that “Baratheons”.

    Why would the Tyrells want that? Clearly, they wouldn’t.

    I think it makes FAR more sense for Loras to take Mace Tyrell’s seat on the Small Council and remain a kick-ass knight of the realm without a white cloak.

    Put simply, the Kingsguard angle is becoming increasingly strained at this point with the elimination of Willas and Garlan Tyrell. It doesn’t work anymore.

    If the show can survive Barristan not being a member of the Small Council, it can survive Loras not being a member of the Kingsguard.

    I know people really don’t want to hear this, but ignoring what appears to be the increasingly obvious helps nothing.

  379. Alan
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    penguinslayer:
    I find absolutely hilarious how suddenly Loras is everyone’s favorite character, and he apparently had tons of character. Give me fucking break! He had maybe three scenes in the whole book, and it’s realistic that he would have sex, even if he woudn’t fall in love again. Renly has been dead for months. Is he meant to weep in every fucking scene?

    There are almost no indications of Loras’ actual character in the book, except him volunteering to lead the charge against Dragonstone against Margaery’s wishes, if that wasn’t staged.

  380. Dwolf
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Here’s an interview with Cogman about the episode on HBO.com…

    He discusses the stillborn babies (which I kinda liked).

    http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/episodes/3/25-kissed-by-fire/interview/bryan-cogman.html

  381. Hawk
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    There must be an out for Cersei…that out will come when she has Joff name Loras to the KG…

  382. Jim
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    gswelcome,

    They are totally doing a disservice to the multilayered character that is Sandor Clegane, imho. D&D have literally written him off as a one-dimensional “badass” killer(yaaaawwwn)…he is a lot more than that. Read the books, they obviously havent.

  383. Ser Hound
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    It’s actually pretty logical for him to be named Kingsguard in order to avoid marriage. The setup for this seems pretty obvious to me…

  384. dizzy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    We don’t know for sure if other Tyrell siblings are eliminated. Also there’s been conversations about Mace Tyrell. I’m sure they are just waiting to introduce him next season. And like someone mentioned Cersei won’t take this lying down. Plus we know she won’t marry Loras or any Tyrell for that matter.

  385. John
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    The Red River Viper,

    I thought the Edric thing strange as well, although that was probably a good place to consolidate the story so we’d only have one (known) bastard of Robert.

  386. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Dialog from sometime in the future:

    Someone to Loras:
    - You’ll marry Cercei Lannister.
    Loras:
    - Where do I sign for the Kingsguard?

    Problem solved.

  387. Shady_Grady
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    JamesL: . They need to at least explain who these people are and where Theon is and what the hell is going with that whole story line otherwise the audience will continue to be annoyed by this storyline. Are we just going to have another scene next week of mysterious man torturing Theon in his basement while he screams some more because that is not compelling television.

    I agree this may be confusing to non-readers. I am sure that some of that will start to be cleared up next week. They must keep the relationship between “boy” and Roose , who burned Winterfell, and the extent of Frey’s disappointment and anger with Robb as much under wraps as possible. Otherwise the season’s major tragedy doesn’t come as a horrible shock to show viewers. The writers and producers can’t let show viewers pick up too soon that Roose and Ramsay are playing their own game, one which is fundamentally opposed to the Stark interests.

  388. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    The Loon:
    For those whining about Grey Wind…pay better attention…he was clearly shown in the Karstark execution scene…chilling under an archway with a handler watching his master proudly

    ” chilling away…. with a handler……” instead of being at Robb’s side or placed
    prominently in the series premise. Ghost and Summer remains elusive as well.
    A huge deviation from the books. The Direwolves have got to speak with Drogon’s
    casting agent.

    My guess is that the Direwolf link to the Starks has not been featured in the premise
    of the show any longer. Season 1 had some cute bonding moments, and they have
    made a few cameo appearances since then, but that’s that. The Warg theory has
    been toned down to a few characters like Orell, with Bran himself proving more
    significant than Summer. There’s plenty of Mysticism theories from ASOIAF
    to spread around , imbue into the GoT series, so it’s not a tragedy. A disappointment
    certainly, many readers such as myself had a affinity towards the Direwolves.
    Not the end of the world. Maybe Samwell will morph into one of Craster’s Sows (:

  389. tysnow
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    I for one would dislike Cersei or Loras to get out of the arranged marriage by way of the Kingsguard, it is lazy storytelling and can be figured out by most non-readers a mile away.
    I love surprises, that way I have two versions to enjoy. Therefore D&D need to throw everyone a curve ball again and divert this plot even more in a different direction.

    The bath scene is now my favorite of the series atm, even ahead of the slavers bbq and the hour long Blackwater scene. The Lannister table meeting was awesome and was unexpected from a readers viewpoint, Tywin rules! I’d love to have Cersei do the deed (this gives her reason) and blame you know who; would freak out readers, catching everyone off guard. The Hound/Beric duel is the best fight sequence yet and was thrilling to watch, can’t wait for Yunkai.
    Kudos! to Bryan and D&D for bringing in my opinion the third best episode to date. The question now remains will 9 & 10 top 1 (Blackwater) and/or 2 (ANHWIE) and therefore season 3 could have 4 of the 5 best episodes, it is a distinct possibility. If season 3 continues this way, even Breaking Bad will be left in the snow tracks of GoT.

  390. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    and Bryan Cogman hits it out of the fucking PARK!Absolute best episode of the entire series, with the exception of the end of season cliffhangers.Lots of stuff in there for book readers, no character assassinations, all the changes from the book made PERFECT sense.The dialogue was great, the scenes flowed well, all the nudity made perfect sense, it was amazing,I am going to watch this episode over and over again.LOVED IT!!!!!

    Greetings Purplejilly. This episode was pretty good, but are you rating it higher
    than last week’s ?

  391. AA
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:

    I also wonder if the Twins will be in the opening credits.

    I don’t think anyone has responded to this yet – Definitely it will – if you watch the opening credits closely, between Riverrun and Winterfell, the camera flies over the Twins just waiting to pop up in a future episode.

  392. sunspear
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Jim,

    Funny, I could have sworn someone named ‘Bryan Cogman’ wrote this episode.

  393. DoubleA012
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Good episode, best so far. Here are my thoughts some good, some not all just opinions.

    As i watch the music and way they are playing out Robs arc seems to be basically saying that the RW is gonna happen. Part of that could be I know, part could be they are making it more obvious. Im not sure which. I remember being shocked in the books, but then again i could of just missed the obvious signs.

    As for the Capital changes…I like it. The KG option for Loras still seems like an easy fix, either Cersie convinced Joff or Tyrells counter so he doesnt have to marry Cersie. But is the Dontos angle completely done with Sansa? Why did they even show him last season?..

    Love Jon snow, wish there was more of him and the Thormund relationship still has time to develope.

    The hound seems to be liked even by non book readers and his deeper layers should be slightly uncovered when him and Arya team up.

    The tub scene, greatly done and acted, many peeps I was with (non book readers) all decided Jamie is actually pretty cool and mis understood..BUT the part where he fell into her arms as she cried out was so corny, i hated that, and only that.

    Dany gettin good, and the theon stuff is a way to keep him relevent but i liked how we had forgotten anout him during books 3-4 and find him alive in 5..id rather screen time went to better develope more characters like Stannis, Roose Bolton, Jon Snow, etc.

  394. Lex
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Pretty amazing episode. Cogman comes through again!

    I thought the Hound/Beric sword fight was by far the best sword fight of the series so far. It was so awesome.

    Thank god Arya FINALLY spoke her hit list again. I’ve been waiting for that.

    Can’t believe we’re halfway through the season!

  395. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    magnuskn:
    I must agree that the writers are dropping Jons arc something fierce. Not evento mention Tormund, whose whole boisterous personality seems to have been forgotten ( one single scene in the beginning is all we got ) and his friendship with Jon has fallen to the wayside. The rest of the show is amazing ( although I agree that the focus on Theon is really unnecessary ), but Jon, who is one of my favorite characters in the novels, really has lost a lot in the transition to the series. They need to build him up, very soon, or the promotion to Lord-Commander will seem completely unearned.

    I wonder if we’ll get to the siege of Castle Black this season? Things are progressing faster than I expected.

    The pacing has us viewers guessing or anxious a bit, but I feel confident that
    the story beyond the Wall is progressing with great intent. I felt much the same
    with the role of Roose Bolton, but look at him now. The evolving plan of things
    is coming along nicely to reveal the larger truth behind the person and/or plan
    for future impact. Right now Kit Harrington needs a bit of support in his role,
    and Hivju , Crook and Hinds are broadening the perspective of the Free Folk
    where Jon or Ygritte alone were not able to do effectively. Even Rattleshirt has
    been left out from distracting us for what lies ahead. More character building
    is taking place, and Tormund will have greater impact in future episodes or next
    season. I feel the same about Theon and Ramseyprogression.

  396. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Lex: I thought the Hound/Beric sword fight was by far the best sword fight of the series so far. It was so awesom

    That was indeed a nice example of swordplay without distractions. I would give an
    honorable mention for Ned and Jaime, but Jaime’s men interfered .
    Bran did a great job at the Eyrie, in season one also.

  397. Kamera
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    I disagree; the Theon plot line could work perfectly this season if they wrap it up correctly. By the end of the season, we know that the Bolton’s must emerge to new viewers as formidable villains. To do that, the show will reveal through the RW that Roose had been plotting with Lord Tywin for some time to sabotage the Starks’ campagin. But there’ll be a bonus reveal along with it: Theon’s tormentor was Bolton’s bastard, and it was he who burnt down Winterfell – which new viewers still assume was done by the fleeing Greyjoy men. The Ramsay reveal may happen earlier than RW, but either way, the writers can play this as a major shock for new viewers while simultaneously transitioning the Bolton’s to their status as full-fledged antagonists.

  398. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    Wow. Great analysis. That never occurred to me, even as I suffered through Lancel’s insufferable guilt trip.

  399. Juego de Tronos
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Jaime was the best of this episode!

  400. ATBoz
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Shady_Grady,

    Regarding Roose, etcWhy would it be unacceptable for them to foreshadow in this manner on the show, when it was done just as strongly in the books if not more so? Before the RW in the books, we had already read Roose and Jamie’s loaded conversation and subsequent sending of Jamie back to KL, and we already know that his bastard Ramsay is a sick maniac clearly playing his own game. Yet, to me, the RW didn’t lose any of its impact because of this.

  401. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: If Loras becomes a Kingsguard,

    There’s still no indication that this will happen. The adaptation process travels
    a winding path. Can you imagine Cersei and Loras ? She’s a Black Mamba ready to
    strike. There are some speculations worth discussing about his future, but they
    may end of in the WTF bin.

    Love the lady Olenna substituting for Cersei with a demand for an extravagant
    wedding fete. I thought the writers erred in not displaying Cersei’s irrationality,
    yet preferred the banter about the budget , between lady Olenna and Tyrion.
    That was a wise choice, very effective at portraying the Tyrell’s and the QOT
    specifically. It was also short and to the point.

  402. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. H’ghar,

    Grey Worm explaining keeping his name chokes me up every time.

  403. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Assuming I’m right, that scene with Jaime & Brienne in the bath is the seminal turning point in the entire series. It is the first step to fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecies. In that scene, Jaime is “reborn” amidst “smoke”. The salt part comes when he is spared imminent execution at dinner with Roose Bolton — he’s literally given a second chance at life (and fyi: in Westeros, “breaking bread” with someone is called “sharing the salt” — which makes Renley’s comment about Azor Ahai being a ham all the more clever). And, the “Red Star bleeds” is NOT in reference to the comet, but rather, the death of Oberyn Martell (which ultimately leads to the death of Tywin — who is NOT Jaime’s father, by the way. That’s actually why Aerys ordered Jaime to kill Tywin. Because, Aerys always knew Jaime was his bastard son, and planned on coming clean once Tywin was out of the picture).

    Of course, most people take the prophecy literally, and think Azor Ahai must be Dany or Stannis, because the former was born on Dragonstone, which is smoky & salty, whereas the latter was converted to the Red God while living there. But, GRRM is rarely so obvious — especially when concerning riddles and prophecies.

    So, to sum it up:

    Smoke = A hot steam bath
    Salt = “Sharing the salt” at dinner
    Red Star Bleeds = The death of Oberyn Martell.

    And, consider, the comet thing throws people off the most. Everyone instantly assumes the “Red Star Bleeds” in the prophecy is the Red Comet that appears in the sky after Dany’s dragons are born. But, technically, comets aren’t stars — not even remotely. Stars are suns, not comets. So, the “Red Star” CANNOT be the comet. It’s the sigil of House Martell — the red sun pierced by a golden spear.

    Plus, from a mythological standpoint, Jaime as Azor Ahai makes perfect sense, because that’s what the god Tyr essentially is in Norse mythology — the one-handed god of single combat — the champion of mankind. And that much is obvious — Jaime is Tyr.

  404. DH87
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Anne: this episode was also an example of how you can make compelling television while also sticking very close to the books. Most of the dialog was from the page.

    I second this.

    Harold L. Kolb wrote in the Virginia Quarterly, “Real writing, and for that matter real thinking, like the visible tip of the iceberg, rides on the surface of a large body of submerged knowledge.” This episode is an example of how Bryan’s large body of submerged knowledge gives him the ability to adapt the original material for the screen in a way deeply satisfying to most in both camps. No small achievement. Congratulations, Bryan.

  405. Alex
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Lundy,

    I’m pretty sure its just an expression. The same way non-christians still say aw hell, or people of all religions can yell jesus christ… seven hells is an expression in the world he lives in. its not a religious thing, its just a frustration. Plus i dont think we know of an Old God hell that he can exclaim about.

  406. Hawk
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    Jaime is not AA

    He will, however, be bringing Lightbringer (Oathkeeper) to AA…

  407. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    House Minor: I know what you’re saying, and it was a little jumpy, but if the scenes appeared later in the episode, perhaps a large potion of the audience would be so busy waiting for those iconic moments that it’s only half-watching the other scenes. This way, the audience enjoys the scenes right at the beginning and can then properly focus its attention and absorb the material that follows.

    In regards to how the scenes are layed out, not just in this episode, but the season and series in general, I was watching an interview with D&D and they talked about how when the show is all said in done with, they want people to treat it as one 80+ hour movie, instead of 80+ 1 hour episodes. When you take that into context, as anyone who has binge-watched the show can tell you, regardless of whether a seen was at the beginning or the end of an episode, I believe the preceeding or upcoming scene plays more of a role in which scene they start with.

    Last week having ended with Dany gaining her army and going directly into the cave fight scene was brilliant. If watching it in the context of a very very long movie, its perfect.

    I see your point, and I agree that the recent episode paced odd to me. However I felt
    the the previous episodes did have a strong start, with the previous considered the best
    so far. In comparison to S2, Season three is an well earned accomplishment.
    Season Three promised an ambitious list of happenings with many new character
    introductions, and I feared it was a monumental task with mixed results in theory.
    My anxieties were quieted with the strong S3 first half, I can forgive a hiccup or two,
    for now. Has to make sense down the road…… I’m patient for allowing the progression
    of the story in general. There’s no rescuing Robb or Catelyn’s story, for that, I’ve
    quietly accepted the loss and moved forward to other developing arcs. Gotta have
    faith

    There are a few stories evolving at present ( Roose, Theon, Jon, Bran ) with
    significant progression, so I’m in no mood to hurry those.

  408. Yellow Dog
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    scout: Mister Stark, I don’t disagree at all, it’s just that in the books, when she’s a very young child, her own septa tells her that no man will love her because she’s so ugly, that her future husband will only marry her for her lands, not for herself. That’s part of the reason why the relationship that forms between Brienne and Jaime is so precious – because he’s the first man who values her for her. And all those qualities you listed that the realm cannot abide in a woman he admires in her. But just as much, he doesn’t care that she isn’t beautiful. Her lack of beauty doesn’t affect her value. P>

    Dammit, stop making me hate Jaime less! :-)

  409. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe:
    Come on, Jon and Ygritte has AWESOME chemistry! It’s the one thing that saved Jon’s S2 story arc :)

    That’s a stretch for saving Jon’s story Maggy, but there’s no argument that
    the passion was real and effective onscreen. Right now Jon’s story is progressing
    well with support from Tormund , Orell and Mance. Doesn’t hurt to have a
    little romantic passion though, and Kit’s fans are loving it (: !

  410. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    I miss Lancel, more than Loras . I suppose I’m anticipating future events.

  411. Darquemode
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    Jon had always been my favorite for AA on my first reading of the books but after reading the series a few times and actually analyzing details I think Jaime could in fact be the man too. here I just see so much irony and symmetry to Jaime and Cersei being Targ bustards and Tyrion being Tywin’s true heir.

    I will admit though, I do love some of the more random theories out there like Theon and Sandor Clegane, but the just do not make sense to me if I look at the details.

  412. Nic
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    Mark:
    Jaimie’s monologue was terrific, but I couldn’t help but reflect about how much the season 2 scene where he murdered Alton takes away from the character arc. I hate to harp on a misstep from last season, but it impacts everything Jaimie does from here on out, and it was completely unnecessary. At least when he pushed Bran out the window, he did it out of a more legitimate sense of self preservation, and somehow managed to make it seem nonchalant despite it being an act of true desperation (which is conveyed in the scene by Cersei). Killing Alton was a weak gamble to try and escape a fortified enemy encampment. It makes the character seem much more ruthless and brutal. At this point, the reader/viewer is supposed to be finally coming around to the idea of becoming sympathetic to Jaimie, and understanding that many of the things he’s notorious for were far less black and white than they’re made out to be. The Alton thing really puts a black mark on that, at least for me. It suggested that rather than being capable of resorting to ruthlessness when there was no other option, it was a more default instinctual element of the character, which makes it that much harder to relate to him even now that he’s been torn down.

    I think you have a problem with your moral compass being missing. :-) I can guarantee you: for the overwhelming majority of the audience, Jaime’s killing of that guy in the camp is nowhere near being in the same league as what he attempted to do to Bran.

  413. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    LoL!!! We have a winner!! Great post!

    Alex Dubrovsky:
    Dialog from sometime in the future:

    Someone to Loras:
    - You’ll marry Cercei Lannister.
    Loras:
    - Where do I sign for the Kingsguard?

    Problem solved.

  414. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Jared: One final note: at the risk of presenting a somewhat unpopular opinion among the purists, I strongly endorse the decision to cut Patchface and fold his rhymes into Shireen’s character. In the novels, I was generally able to see the merit in Martin’s numerous fools-as-prophets characters, even if I don’t particularly like them. But Patchface was an always an exception. I hated that character in the novels. HATED him. Every time he showed up, I wanted to reach through the page and chuck him back into the sea (where the birds have scales for feathers, I know, I know, oh, oh, Oh My God kill me).I recognize that he has his uses (the “Fool’s Blood, King’s Blood” line was a big hint of foreshadowing that I hope manages to stay in the show, somehow), but there was no reason it all had to be presented in such an irritating package. Coming from Shireen over the end credits (Kerry Ingram was EXCELLENT, and I hope that we see more of her), those words were haunting, foreboding, and strangely beautiful. This is one instance where, at least in my opinion, the show has remarkably improved upon the source material.

    Oh my god thank you! I have always LOATHED Patchface! The fools in general kinda annoyed but me, but for some reason I could never stand him. I do not understand all the love he gets and never will. Such an irritating character.

  415. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Which part of season 2??? The part where every single thing she uttered to Jon was an insult/smart ass retort/condescending remark?

    Oh wait, everything that came out of her mouth was an insult/smart ass retort/condescending remark. Seriously, she has been extremely unlikeable.

    I don’t know what show you’re watching, but she has been anything but sexy and she has had NO chemistry with Jon.

    mags giantsbabe:
    Come on, Jon and Ygritte has AWESOME chemistry! It’s the one thing that saved Jon’s S2 story arc :)

  416. JamesL
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Kamera,

    That still is not a good excuse for why Theon is getting as much screen time as every other main character, even more than some like Bran and Jon. They could have just given Theon a scene or two this season and then after the RW reveal to the audience that he is a captive of the Boltons. Giving him his own storyline was a mistake. He should have just had a scene or 2 this year and saved his story arc with Ramsay for S4 after the Roose betrayal and RWso the audience would have a better understanding of his storyline and find it more compelling.

  417. Arkmam
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Great episode, but I really want to see a Tywin/Jeoffrey scene!

  418. Gatehouse Ami
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    This show was packed! The fetus jars were more “Carnivale” than science fiction, I thought, but getting cozy with Qyburn reminds me that Robert Strong could bring back that science fiction vibe again. Works fine for me, though. Surprise me with anything, as long as it happens in a script with no dead space.

    The ending rush of minutes evoked last season’s “The Queen musn’t know” sequence with Tyrion setting his trap and catching Pycelle. Deftly done!
    I like this Patchface song more than I liked Patchface.
    I hope Dontos+Sansa+Tyrion= “The Climb,” hehee.

  419. Shady_Grady
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    ATBoz

    Good question. I think, for me anyway, that the visual medium is more obvious than the written word. There were tons of hints at the RW in the books and in hindsight it was obvious but it still came as something of a surprise. The show has done some foreshadowing, (Every time we see Tywin he’s writing letters, Robb’s complaining that he can’t get the opposition to fight, Karstark’s curse) but I would be surprised if we get more than 1 or 2 episodes where particularly sharp viewers learn that both Roose and Ramsay are working together. I thought that Roose and Frey would oppose Robb but would do so openly. The murder at the wedding feast and the desecration of bodies was over the top and way beyond anything I expected. I think that if properly done the RW will be the point where this show ascends to legendary status and/or turns people off.

    Show viewers know Frey is mean and prickly. They know that Roose urged Robb to torture people. They know Tywin is without pity. But I think the show has to be really careful not to let people put all those things together before 4-5 weeks from now. In the books I think it’s easier for GRRM to have other things going on to divert your attention from the RW he was setting up.

  420. flame
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    that loras scene was really stupid

  421. Monstadon
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Was I the only one who thought

    “Oh, Loras and Cersei. Two queens. Sounds like a spin-off for the Bravo channel”

  422. Ross
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    I’ve just had a thought – could the three fetuses in a jar (with king’s blood) replace the slug-burnings?

  423. Arya Dunyett
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Originally posted this in the Unsullied thread. Don’t think there are any spoilers.

    Here’s a link to that Men’s Health cover with NCW and a tease about the interview:
    http://http://www.dailystab.com/game-of-thrones-nikolaj-coster-waldau-covers-mens-health-magazine-may-2013/

    Sooo much to love about this episode! More than enough backsides for 5 episodes. Cheeky.

    I’m in lurv with NCW. His acting deserves Emmys and SAG awards! And tha bath scene was so well written, thanks to BC!

    I loved sweetly tragic Shireen, found huddled alone in her dank dark bedchamber, singing her wierd little tune. And the regimental Lannister family gatherings complete with roaring lions.

    Olyvar Frey, Robb’s dutiful squire from the book, has been transformed into The Gay Squire Olyvar, avid and opportunistic Baelish spy. Nice recycling of characters.

    I’m so thrilled to have my lucid years correspond to the production of this fine work. Thank you D&D and company!

  424. flame
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Lol! I agree, that was totally unnecessary

  425. Hawk
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    When Aerys named Jaime to the Kingsguard (robbing Tywin of his heir) he didn’t care about Tywin’s reaction then, so why would Aerys feel compelled to wait until Tywin was out of the picture to reveal to Jaime that Aerys was his father? Makes no sense and is out of character for Aerys, who openly slaughtered Brandon Stark and those who rode w/ him to KL to find Rhaegar, as well as their fathers, and didn’t give a crap how the realm would react…remember, this is the same Aerys who took certain liberties with Tywin’s wife on their wedding night right to his face, and didn’t give a crap…those liberties did not include bedding her, however…that happened later, and begat Tyrion…

    It makes more sense for what has come before in the story that Tyrion is the Targ bastard, Tyrion who has been set up to ride a dragon from the very first book, Tyrion who knows more about dragons than probably anybody else, Tyrion who has already designed a saddle so that a crippled boy could ride a horse, and who will design and construct his own saddle to ride a dragon…the delicious irony of Tyrion being a Targ is that Tywin ever did ANYTHING for that lecherous stump who is not actually his true son, somebody Tywin would have killed w/o a second thought if he had known the truth, and somebody who, because he lived, ultimately ends up killing Tywin…

  426. Dornishman
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: opening

    The twins appear in the opening credits in season 1 episode 9. They’ll reappear this season as with the eyrie

  427. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    The best episode yet. Great balance between action scenes and intimate one-on-ones or family get-togethers. When I read the books I felt an uneasy sense that something was going to happen to Robb. GRRM gave us a lot of foreshadowing. But when it happened it was less shock but more pathos and left me with such a sense of loss. I believe that the episode in the series will carry the same great punch to the gut. It’s not the shock that will make the episode, but the tragedy. The shock for me was what happened at the Margery/Joffrey wedding. And subsequent stuff.

    I loved that Shireen was shown with greyscale. I have a theory about greyscale and about the dragons being the identifiers of people with Targaryen blood. But since GRRM hasn’t even written that yet (well, he has but not in a way that you’d take notice of) then I can’t call this a spoiler, only a theory.

  428. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Hawk,

    I have the same theory about Tyrion. And what I want to happen is that he and Dany will finally meet, she will furiously set one of her dragons on him because he’s a Lannister, but the dragon won’t harm him (as the dragons would not harm Brown Ben Plumm) because it will sense his Targaryen blood. I cannot wait for that to happen just to see the look on Dany’s face. And Tyrion’s too, since he doesn’t know who he is yet.

  429. dogs
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    This episode was really good but there were a few things that kind of left me unsettled. The Jon-Ygritte cave scene, for instance. There needed to be another scene before that that had already established and reaffirmed the sexual tension between Ygritte and Jon in the third season, somewhere between the Meet Mance Rayder scene in episode one and the Meet Orell scene in episode two. It would also be an opportunity to set up Tormund’s character a bit better too, because, really some of that dialogue didn’t make sense in this scene. “I like you boy…” ? Does Tormund like Jon? Since when? So far, Tormund hasn’t really done anything or said anything in particular that would set up that dialogue. “Let’s stay in this cave forever…” ? It just felt kinda weird, and sudden. The Jon scenes up until this point had been very, very bare (due to the difficulty of Iceland filming, I think maybe?) and then this came along all suddenly. Also, probably because Jon wasn’t featured in the last episode too.
    And then, the Sansa-Loras Kingslanding plot kind of enfolded weirdly too on my first watch. I just watched it again and it bothers me less now, but that sequence of scenes right after one another of Loras and the squire dude, the squire dude and Littlefinger, Littlefinger and Sansa. Maybe a little gap between the squire/Littlefinger exchange and the Littlefinger and Sansa scene could have benefitted it. I dunno.
    But pretty much everything else about this episode was awesome and eventful. Shit is ramping up. Roose Bolton is awesome. It’s nice to see some male bits and some lead actor nudity for once, instead of token brothel nudity all the time. It might be confusing when Lysa Arryn reappears and she looks and acts similarly to Selyse, because they are both psychopathic dark-haired older women locked up in towers, but I think the introduction of Stannis’ family was really well done. Excited for more.

  430. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Yellow Dog: Dammit, stop making me hate Jaime less!:-)

    Sorry! I can’t help it! lol

  431. eetrebor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: I’m beginning to seriously question whether Loras as Kingsguard makes any sense anymore. Margaery is to be Queen. If Loras becomes a Kingsguard, the heirs to the Tyrells are only Margaery’s children. They will all be Lannisters… er, make that “Baratheons”.

    Why would the Tyrells want that? Clearly, they wouldn’t.

    I think it makes FAR more sense for Loras to take Mace Tyrell’s seat on the Small Council and remain a kick-ass knight of the realm without a white cloak.

    Put simply, the Kingsguard angle is becoming increasingly strained at this point with the elimination of Willas and Garlan Tyrell.It doesn’t work anymore.

    If the show can survive Barristan not being a member of the Small Council, it can survive Loras not being a member of the Kingsguard.

    I know people really don’t want to hear this, but ignoring what appears to be the increasingly obvious helps nothing.

    Not a big deal, they can just have Loras have a younger brother if/when the need arises. Loras can become KG and the brother becomes heir to Highgarden.

  432. kaldor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    can anyone explain to me why loras and the tyrells have no word in whom loras marries? obviously, the tyrells have different plans.

  433. zaprowsdower
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Gendry says m’lady not my lady. A bit of a callback. Surprised by how many people thought it was a romantic thing.

  434. zaprowsdower
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Jim,

    They have read the books. They often talk about how they knew they got the job when GRRM asked them who Jon’s mother is and he seemed satisfied with their answer.

  435. RT
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Alan,

    He has had limited screen time for his story arc. There is definitely content from the first part of Storm of Swords that could have been used in these past episodes.

  436. Braincandy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    Thank you Bryan Cogman for the male nudity!!!!!!!!! Finally a little balance!!! You rock!

    Oh and the episode was sublime.

  437. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Macejko,
    But if Talisa hadn’t had the convo with the little Lannister boys, how would anyone (other than book readers) know who the boys were, why they were killed, and why Karstark should be executed for killing them?

  438. Matt
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone know where the greatjon has been this season?

  439. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán,

    In regards to the ease of the Tyrell link…I think it makes sense. Who knew on the Tyrell side? Margery, Lady Olenna, Loras and Sansa. Of those four, Loras is the weakest link and easily tricked. And Sansa was not far behind. By telling Littlefinger she didn’t want to leave was all the confirmation he needed.

    In re: Jon and Ygritte, while reading your post, I remembered something that happened during my first read of the books. When Ygritte shoots him with an arrow outside of Queenscrown and later when they fight on different sides, I remembering thinking that I didn’t expect him to turn against her or that it seemed to easy for him considering their emotional attachment. Maybe by not developing the relationship so much in the TV series, when they do choose different sides it won’t seem as much out of character. I basically read more into their relationship and so the change was harder for me to swallow book-wise BUT on the show it will make more sense because they’re just screwing around AND she sad it herself, she’s testing his loyalty.

  440. kaldor
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    Walter_Eagle,

    so it’s a fact. dinklage plays by far the leading role of the show. any nomination as supporting actor would be absurd.

  441. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    msd,

    Agree on Loras….sex and love aren’t always connected in my human experience. It’s been a while since Renly died (a year at least). How long should a young man in the prime of his life go without any kind of sex or intimacy? The scene didn’t seem out of character to me. My two cents.

  442. Mike Chair
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    Walter_Eagle: 26. Sandor – 27

    This needs to go way up.

  443. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Prince of Pentos,

    Presumptious of Gendry? If he swore to follow Robb he would have to call any women in the Stark family “my lady”, wouldn’t he? If they both stayed with the brotherhood, they’d be more equals and could potentially have a romantic future but NOT if she returns to her family.

    In re: Robb’s decision to go to Casterly Rock it made sense to me because it’s probably the ONLY way he could draw Tywin out. As he said, Tywin just has to sit and wait because Robb can’t attack him at KL. But if he can threaten something Tywin really values he might be able to draw him out and regain some advantage. I think it’s a pretty smart military tactic if you ask me.

  444. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    What if they used Theon’s music during the Karstark execution scene in order to foreshadow the RW? Karstark said killing him would make Robb a kinslayer and therefore cursed. One could look at Theon that way too because he destroyed many in Winterfell and betrayed loyalty to people who he considered his family.

  445. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    On a side note — one of the more clever links to Norse mythology is the relationship between Jon Snow and Samwell. Jon Snow is Surtr (the Black — who wields a fiery sword), and Samwell is Heimdall (the Watcher — he who warns the gods of Surtr’s coming).

    Surtr breaks the Bifrost Bridge and leads the Sons of Muspell into Asgard, subsequently setting the sky ablaze with his fiery sword. Meaning, Jon Snow will break the Wall and lead the Others/White Walkers — the Sons of Craster — into Westeros. Surtr’s wife is Sinmara, which is another name for Hel. Hel is Loki’s daughter and queen of the dead. Her face is both very old, yet very young. She is represented by Melisandre (yep, Mel is Hel). She wears a glamor to hide the fact that she’s either extremely old, or already dead. And she will “marry” Jon Snow after she raises him from the dead, and will supply him with his fiery sword, in much the same way she did for Stannis.

    Heimdall — the Watcher — is symbolized by the horn he sounds to warn the gods of the oncoming of Ragnarök. Samwell — the Watcher — was born and raised on Horn Hill. Heimdall didn’t have a father. He was “born of nine mothers”. Similarly, Samwell was disowned by his father and is a momma’s boy to the extreme.

    So, what can we draw from this? Jon Snow will be converted to the Lord of Light upon his resurrection, and will become very similar in temperament to Lady Stoneheart. In fact, Surtr is foretold to kill Freyr in Ragnarök. Freyr, the fertility god, is represented by Walder Frey. So, Jon Snow will become hell-bent on revenge. When Samwell returns, he will notice immediately that Jon has changed for the worse. He will also uncover ancient secrets of some kind, like how to defeat the White Walkers, or how to kill the greenseers (because, Heimdall is foretold to kill and be killed by Loki. And Loki is Bloodraven. So, perhaps Samwell will uncover Bloodraven’s true intentions, and will kill him in an attempt to rescue Bran from his clutches, feeling guilty for having aided in Bran’s delivery to him, by way of Coldhands). And, it’s fairly likely he’ll find the Horn of Winter, but Jon Snow will take it from him and break the Wall. After which, Samwell will FINALLY send his ravens to warn the people of Westeros (i.e. the gods of Asgard), before he sets off to stop Bloodraven.

    Or at least, that’s how I see it.

    DISCLAIMER: This is a “theory”. Not a fact. I’m just throwing it out there.

  446. Braincandy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Thank you Bryan Cogman for the male nudity!!!!!!!!! Finally a little balance!!! You rock!
    Oh and the episode was sublime.

  447. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,
    “gay propaganda”? You’ve got to be kidding. The character is gay and it’s a legitimate way to explain how the secret gets out. Spy agencies use sex ALL THE TIME to get info in the real world. And if it had been two women, would you have been complaining or fist pumping?

  448. Mike Chair
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    A lot of people have commented on the Grey Worm scene.

    He is played by Jacob Anderson.

    Here’s what David J. Peterson (the creator of the GoT languages) had to say in his blog about Jacob Anderson’s performance:

    Man alive! Who the hell is Jacob Anderson?! And I mean that in the best possible way. I mean, he may have messed up one vowel somewhere in this long, long speech, but if he did, I didn’t hear it. Jacob Anderson is now and forever afterwards my hero. If you didn’t get a chance to see this scene, watch it—by any means necessary. Seriously. This performance? Un. Be. LIEVABLE. I want to bake this guy a cake—or wash his car—whatever! I’ll drive him to the airport for the rest of his life for this performance. If I could, I’d have him do recordings for me, because I think he’s better than me. He may as well have created this language. I want him to teach me how to speak this language. I want to make this speech my ringtone—in fact, I’m tempted to record the audio straight off HBO GO and upload it here… But, no. I’ll be good.

    Here’s his line:

    “Torgo Nudho” hokas bezy. Sa me broji beri. Ji broji ez bezo sene stas qimbroto. Kuny iles ji broji meles esko mazedhas derari va buzdar. Y Torgo Nudho sa ji broji ez bezy eji tovi Daenerys Jelmazmo ji teptas ji derve.
    “‘Grey Worm’ gives this one pride. It is a lucky name. The name this one was born with was cursed. That was the name he had when he was taken as a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one had the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free.”
    And that sound you just heard? That’s Jacob Anderson dropping the mic. IT’S DONE! Bar just got raised. This is the new standard—for everything. To everyone in the future: You must be at least this cool to ride. This man’s got serious skills—and he’s like ten years younger than me! Where does he get the nerve to be that good?! How can he do that?! My mind boggles…

  449. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    DoubleA012,

    Use spoiler tags!

  450. Nicole
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Well, I like the Theon stuff. :( And Bran is a boring charcter so yes, I would much much much much much rather see crazy ass Ramsay than yet another boring ass crow dream.

    The Theon stuff is needed not only to keep an actor around and paid BUT also to introduce us to an important villain. All of a sudden introducing Ramsay in season 5 wouldnt work

    I agree they need to officially tell the audience what’s going on, but I’m willing to wait to see now it plays out before I start bitching about it.

  451. Selmy
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Ok then, let’s review this fantastic episode of Game of Thrones. (My favorite from season 3 this far, but it’ll probably change next Sunday :P)

    The bravest girl there is – I believe the Beric/Hound fight was the best of all, taking as much screentime as it needed and making it as epic as in the books. Arya is my favorite character and I am filled with joy and respect everytime I see Maise Williams acting, the girl is perfect.

    The Queen across the Water – For one moment I thought Quaithe would be the one to inform Daenerys of Jorah’s betrayal, since Selmy hasn’t told her yet. But I think, as a lot of people do, that he subtly gave Jorah a way out this episode and will probably inform his Queen this season. Nice scene with Greyworm, good actor, as always.

    The King in the North – Wow, talk about a slow and painful fall. It was really well done and had really good writing. Should have kept him a hostage Robb, Karstark’s death could’ve waited.

    The King on the Iron Throne – Well I can easily say Joffrey wasn’t missed this week, he had his fair share of screentime. King’s Landing’s is as always the city of plots and strategy (tactics?). Littlefinger once again suceeds in taking advantage of other people’s stupidity (Cersei) and naivety (Sansa) and without knowing it, outsmarted Varys. Tywin’s scene with Tyrion and Cersei was perfection. That is all. And after two Dany endings and two Jaime endings, I was glad that KL closed the episode.

    Jaime and Brienne – I don’t have a lot to say on this subject since they nailed that part of the story. Which part? All of it! But the winner scene is Jaime’s bath scene. Really good acting.

    The King in the Narrow Sea – Finally! Selyse and Shireen make their first appearance and you can’t help but think… if D&D didn’t cut them, their bound to be pretty interesting in the future books. This is not a complain but it would’ve been cool if Selyse had a mustache, I’m sure AngryGOTfan will mention it :P. I guess the dead babies in liquid were to make Selyse memorable to viewers and I understand the change. Shireen is damn awesome. She’s ugly but so nice and so well portrayed you can’t help but like her.

    Word of the end: Bryan Cogman, damn if I was gay I’d come and kiss you right about now. Don’t worry :P. And I don’t know whose idea it was to play Shireen singing over the credits but it gave me chills. Bravo.

  452. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    kaldor,
    Well, they do have a say. But they know by even setting up Sansa with Loras, they’re making a power play against the Lannisters and therefore have to keep it a secret until they have consolidated more power, preferrably after Margery and Joffrey wed. Plus they also know that if Tywin (via King Joffrey) orders Loras to marry someone else or puts him in the KG then the Tyrells would HAVE to obey. So they want to avoid being openly ordered to do something against their plans. For now Tywin wants to keep the element of surprise so he’s keeping it a secret.

  453. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Can someone remind me how the Lannisters are able to spring Tyrion’s wedding to Sansa on the Tyrells? Is it a secret ceremony?

  454. Lina
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    That’s awesome! Thanks for posting it. I love reading anything by Peterson, because he’s always so ardent and gets so nerdy about linguistics. I’ll have to rewatch now to see how Valyrian should sound!

    Just a curious question to all of you…does Valyrian sound/read like any languages you know or have heard? I know it’s a created language and therefore doesn’t fit into the family trees of our languages, and it shouldn’t sound like anything we know. But just wondering if anyone has any comparisons. I always equated Valyrian to our Latin, but I don’t think it sounds much like Latin.

  455. Bodiccuh
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    LOL, that’s pretty cool!

  456. scout
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Bodiccuh:
    Can someone remind me how the Lannisters are able to spring Tyrion’s wedding to Sansa on the Tyrells?Is it a secret ceremony?

    Yup. It’s a secret. Poor Sansa.

  457. redqueen
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins,

    Agree, the whole story will hinge on Jaime and Bran just as it did in the beginning. Each has turned, one to the good and we will see the other turn to the bad. An amazing turn of events that George R. R. Martin is genius at creating.

  458. Ed
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    VF, I always enjoy reading your theories. Awesome stuff.

    I have no idea how accurate they are, heck – I don’t even know if your descriptions of Norse Mythology jive.

    BUT – If your rundowns of Norse Mythology are true, and Martin has thinly (thickly) veiled his show in this – it would be awesome.

    Do you have a blog somewhere, or somewhere that this is ALL written down? I would love to read all your recaps about this.

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    On a side note — one of the more clever links to Norse mythology is the relationship between Jon Snow and Samwell. Jon Snow is Surtr (the Black — who wields a fiery sword), and Samwell is Heimdall (the Watcher — he who warns the gods of Surtr’s coming).


    Surtr breaks the Bifrost Bridge and leads the Sons of Muspell into Asgard, subsequently setting the sky ablaze with his fiery sword. Meaning, Jon Snow will break the Wall and lead the Others/White Walkers — the Sons of Craster — into Westeros. Surtr’s wife is Sinmara, which is another name for Hel. Hel is Loki’s daughter and queen of the dead. Her face is both very old, yet very young. She is represented by Melisandre (yep, Mel is Hel). She wears a glamor to hide the fact that she’s either extremely old, or already dead. And she will “marry” Jon Snow after she raises him from the dead, and will supply him with his fiery sword, in much the same way she did for Stannis.


    Heimdall — the Watcher — is symbolized by the horn he sounds to warn the gods of the oncoming of Ragnarök. Samwell — the Watcher — was born and raised on Horn Hill. Heimdall didn’t have a father. He was “born of nine mothers”. Similarly, Samwell was disowned by his father and is a momma’s boy to the extreme.

    So, what can we draw from this? Jon Snow will be converted to the Lord of Light upon his resurrection, and will become very similar in temperament to Lady Stoneheart. In fact, Surtr is foretold to kill Freyr in Ragnarök. Freyr, the fertility god, is represented by Walder Frey. So, Jon Snow will become hell-bent on revenge. When Samwell returns, he will notice immediately that Jon has changed for the worse. He will also uncover ancient secrets of some kind, like how to defeat the White Walkers, or how to kill the greenseers (because, Heimdall is foretold to kill and be killed by Loki. And Loki is Bloodraven. So, perhaps Samwell will uncover Bloodraven’s true intentions, and will kill him in an attempt to rescue Bran from his clutches, feeling guilty for having aided in Bran’s delivery to him, by way of Coldhands). And, it’s fairly likely he’ll find the Horn of Winter, but Jon Snow will take it from him and break the Wall. After which, Samwell will FINALLY send his ravens to warn the people of Westeros (i.e. the gods of Asgard), before he sets off to stop Bloodraven.

    Or at least, that’s how I see it.

    DISCLAIMER: This is a “theory”. Not a fact. I’m just throwing it out there.

  459. Cadeyrn
    Posted April 29, 2013 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    Well, if GRRM doesn’t get 6 and 7 done fast enough, there is easily enough material to go back and do a prequel on the Mad King and the Baratheon rebellion. Not sure if the actors can play their younger selves though, but wouldn’t that be sweet?

  460. Beastling
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    Ross,

    When I read your comment, I yelled “YES! YES!”

    Gods, I hope you’re right! That would be SO CREEPY and SO AWESOME.

  461. Zack
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Cadeyrn,

    What about bringing Joe Dempsie in as young Robert, or something? They could do things like that. Maisie Williams could play Lyanna, um…I dunno. I would think they could do something like that if they really wanted to, and thus sort of tackle the problem that taking a year off from the main story would mean leaving the main cast sidelined.

  462. Steven Swanson
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    flame:
    Arthur,

    Lol! I agree, that was totally unnecessary

    I know, and that scene where Jon and Ygritte got naked together? That was totally gross! Did he put her face in her thingy? Ewww!!!

  463. The Instrumentalist
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    I know this has been said to death but the Loras and prostitute did bug me, for only the fact that I don’t think Renly has been dead that long. What happened to the Loras that cut down every member of the Kingsguard when they failed to protect Renly? What happened to joining the Kingsguard so he won’t have to marry? What happened to “when the sun has set, no candle can replace it?”?!

    Obviously people can move on, I’m not so naive as to think Loras can’t have fun. But I really don’t think that it’s been so long, and he just seemed so happy and not conflicted whatsoever… though perhaps it can be said that this is the way he may try to forget Renly. It’s true we don’t know much about Loras and Renly’s relationship in the books besides hear-say. I think this has upset some Sullied because Loras’ love (and candle line in particular) really strikes a cord, and gives new insight into a small character we knew practically nothing about.

    So they went into a different (or same?) direction. We got Loras the soldier and Loras the gay lover (nice to see some more men!), but I hope we will get to see the softer side of him too.

  464. The Instrumentalist
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Also, Gwen is just too beautiful. That pink dress in the preview?! Dear God I lover her…. COUGHmarry meCOUGHCOUGH

  465. Zack
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    The Instrumentalist: Obviously people can move on, I’m not so naive as to think Loras can’t have fun. But I really don’t think that it’s been so long,

    I have a family member whose longtime spouse (they were devoted entirely to each other) died of cancer who, within a few months, was dating and having sex. Sex doesn’t mean love, and I don’t see the inconsistency with book Loras. His heart can be for Renly while he enjoys meaningless passion.

  466. GingerBeard
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    I use the term Gaycist, when referring to people who dislike gays (as it relates more to racism and discrimination than to actual phobias)… just exchange the word “Black” or Jewish” for “Gay” and you will see how it relates… for there are, of course, people who do not like seeing black people represented as being equal to white people, and we rightfully call them racists.

  467. Gewss
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Rob deciding to take Casterly Rock with the help of the Freys seems to indicate to me that they will probably end the season with the Red Wedding.

  468. obsidian
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 2:41 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    Re: Varamyr Fourskins ‘ theory…

    Ain’t gonna happen.

    I think some people make the mistake of running with the GRRM quote to the effect that the religion of the Old Gods is loosely based on the Norse Religion. But that’s religion ( how the people worship , their rites, religious hierarchy of priests/priestesses )..not Norse Mythology. There have been descriptions of who and/or what the Old Gods are perceived to be , and they’re quite different.

    Similarly, the religion of The Seven is based on Catholicism ,but it’s not the same mythology. I suppose we could scour the books and find resonances between some characters and various gods or saints from the Christian pantheon, too, but I don’t it would be wise to expect the characters stories to follow ” The Lives of the Saints”.

    Besides which GRRM says he doesn’t do allegory.

  469. Walter_Eagle
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    kaldor:
    Walter_Eagle,
    so it’s a fact. dinklage plays by far the leading role of the show. any nomination as supporting actor would be absurd.

    Well, he was way more of a lead last season (185 lines after the first five episodes as opposed to this year’s 127), but he was nominated as Supporting for that year. I don’t think the show really has a lead right now; I would say the one time Tyrion would be the true lead is the adaptation of book 2. I also think it’s plausible that Jaime, Jon, Dany, and Arya could plummet up and wind up (almost) on par with Tyrion in the latter half of the season as I think they have more left to do.

  470. Rickon Greyjoy
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    Bath scene was great! Up there with one of my favorite moments of the series.
    All in all probably one of my fav episodes of the series as well.
    Surprised there isn’t more talk of the Gendry/Arya scene where he says he never had a family. That was the one that made my manly self a bit misty eyed lol.
    Dunno how I feel about the merging of Shireen and Patchface though.. just because I think Patchface has a role to play yet.

  471. Rickon Greyjoy
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    Walter_Eagle,

    Walter_Eagle,

    This is Jaime’s season I think.

  472. TH3WICK3D1
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Hawk,

    Hawk:
    Varamyr Fourskins,

    Jaime is not AA

    He will, however, be bringing Lightbringer (Oathkeeper) to AA…

    i believe Jaime is AA, but not only that, i now believe that there will be several chosen ones, and The Red Priests are not going about random gathering people/candidates… they gathering commanders to lead the defense.

    I feel the Red Priests communicate with each other and dispatch certain priests to find and convert potential candidates.

    but i also like VF’s Mel/Hel thing… it could have the Nightsfort thing happen again

  473. JG
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    strepsi,

    You people make me laugh. A phobia is a fear of something- he never said he was afraid of homosexuality, nor did he express any hatred towards it.

    People today are so quick to jump on any little comment and brand the poster “homophobic” for a comment that they themselves probably didn’t intend to come across that way. If a heterosexual male finds a scene involving two men, naked, and having sex on a bed unpleasing to the eyes, it doesn’t automatically mean he hates them and wishes they’d die- it means he’s straight!

    Idiots….

  474. Beyond the Wall
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    I didn’t like the cave scene, it felt very rushed compared to the book. There has been good banter between Jon and Ygritte to this point but he seemed to go for it, breaking his vows, rather quickly. It was much more powerful in the book where they were already in love. Wasn’t keen on how the Loras scene played out either, so much for being heartbroken over Renly. He seemed like an idiot ruled by the contents of his trousers.

    Aside from that it was another fantastic episode. Jaime and Brienne in the bath was amazing, Gwen brought so much emotion to it in just a look. She is such a perfect Brienne.

  475. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Lina,

    I think it sorta sounds like Portuguese.

  476. Al Swearengen
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    Another outstading episode thats got the potential to be one of my favorites.

    My one worry is with Tywin asking Cersei to marry Loras it makes me feel like D & D are going to cut Mace Tyrell.

  477. magnuskn
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Alan: One, the promotion to LC WAS completely unearned, at least until he warns Castle Black and commands the defense… which hasn’t happened yet. And those opportunities came entirely because he’s Stark-born. By this point in the novels, Jon is a whiny guy who is good with a sword and who is contemplating betraying his vows for real. He’s more or less there in the show. I wasn’t a huge fan of Season 2 Jon, but Season 3 has been almost exactly like the book.

    People are putting too much from later books into this point in the season. Tormund? Tormund is barely in Book 3! At this point, he’s had about one speech. He doesn’t take Jon up the Wall. He’s there with Mance once or twice. Most of Tormund comes later, and people are projecting.

    We’ve had more Jon and Ygritte flirting at this point in the show, if less sex. Just give them time on Jon’s story — people are skipping to the end. He’s not supposed to be super-competent yet.

    You’re right about the part about Jon, but what I am missing with Tormund is his boisterous, yet good-hearted nature. At this point, he’s coming up more like a mixture of the Magnar of Thenn and his book character and not in the favor of “book Thormund”.

  478. Shock Me
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Bodiccuh,

    I felt that Loras’s eagerness in that scene was something that supports the theory that he is just as ambitious as his little sister and though he was fond of Renly his motives for initially pursuing him were not entirely pure. Anything to advance the jumped up House Tyrell, you know?

  479. Al Swearengen
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    Did anyone else get a little misty eyed during Arya’s scene with Gendry ? I found it quite touching and was once again blown away by the incredible acting chops from Maisie.

  480. Alex Also
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    This is the episode to put up for the scriptwriting awards. Three cheers Bryan Cogman.

    And can I just add a belated cheer for the casting of Anguy? Well done. Exactly as he should be. Such s tiny part. It wouldn’t matter at all if he weren’t right – but he is. Nice.

  481. mariamb18
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Al Swearengen:
    Did anyone else get a little misty eyed during Arya’s scene with Gendry ? I found it quite touching and was once again blown away by the incredible acting chops from Maisie.

    I did, too. Maisie is incredible – she steals every scene that she is in.

    Alex Also:
    This is the episode to put up for the scriptwriting awards. Three cheers Bryan Cogman.

    And can I just add a belated cheer for the casting of Anguy? Well done. Exactly as he should be. Such s tiny part. It wouldn’t matter at all if he weren’t right – but he is. Nice.

    Agree on both counts. Phillip McGinley is perfect in the role.

  482. Red Hound
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    JG:
    strepsi,

    You people make me laugh. A phobia is a fear of something- he never said he was afraid of homosexuality, nor did he express any hatred towards it.

    People today are so quick to jump on any little comment and brand the poster “homophobic” for a comment that they themselves probably didn’t intend to come across that way. If a heterosexual male finds a scene involving two men, naked, and having sex on a bed unpleasing to the eyes, it doesn’t automatically mean he hates them and wishes they’d die- it means he’s straight!

    Idiots….

    Another strong opinated individual. Why are you hiding behind the insults and the attitude? As I wrote above, we dislike many things because we fear them. And when someone has a strong opinion on something or someone, there’s always an underlying reason.

    You say we make you laugh, which is unfortunate, because you should laugh at your own fallacious arguments. No one said that homophobia = Wanting to die. You also use an absolute when using “straight” as a defense. I’m a straight male, I’m not disgusted by male homosexual scenes. Being straight doesn’t make you a non-straight hater. World is not black and white.

    This is his comment :

    The Sir Loras gay scene…Okay I understand we needed to see how Littlefinger was made aware of the Tyrell’s plot for Sansa…But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    If this message doesn’t come across as homophobic…

    So, JG, what are you afraid of here?

  483. Ross
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    Arthur: But was it really necessary to see some skinny ugly dirty butthole gay dudes body parts like that? I threw up a little in my mouth…

    Wow, yeah that’s not a cool thing to say Arthur, not at all. And in response to your question – yes, I think it was necessary to see it – perhaps more exposure to ‘gay scenes’ might make the notion of homosexuality a little less abhorrent in your mind?

  484. Lina
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    I like Varamyr’s ideas about the connections with Norse myths. I don’t know if I buy that what he laid out will happen, but it’s all interesting to discuss. Coincidentally, I was just reading some theories about Norse Mythology on reddit. You guys might enjoy it. This one is sort of an intro and then links to other more developed threads on reddit/Westeros.org: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1d0cap/spoilers_all_norse_mythology_in_asoiaf/

    All the similarities are really cool. Although, as someone in one of those threads noted, the religion of R’hllor does seem to be similar to Zoroastrianism.

  485. mags giantsbabe
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Wildseed and Ed

    It’s just an opinion. In my mind it kind of made up for the little Jon/Quorin interaction. After having watched the episode now, I thought it was great, but that cave scene was rushed. It was good, but would have worked better as more slow-burn with prior scenes indicating romance. And I don’t see that Ygritte was constantly breaking him down in S2. She had motivations of her own and was “flirting” to get away. It was well-done and even witty (although staying true to the book would have been better).

    The freedom-talk was a highlight and then Jon’s conversation with Sam. But since Alfie Allen and Richard Madden get preferential treatment (D and D have stated they like the actors), decent dialogue for Kit Harington is few and far between. And please don’t tell me it’s because Jon’s story is boring, or because he is a character that’s “uninteresting” because he acts with integrity. Ned was fascinating in S1. And I agree that Jon is like a younger Ned, and they need to build on that.

    What’s the issue with the gay scene? I immediately knew the squire was a spy… And minutes later… tadaaa! Little Finger :)

  486. Hodor
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    ” I found it quite touching and was once again blown away by the incredible acting chops from Maisie.”

    Maisie shows us once again that she can play different sides of a character: She can act tough and be angry, but she can also be and look vulnerable. When she looks sad or is crying, she makes you want to comfort her. She’s very good at expressing her emotions.

    It was a sad farewell, but at the same time I’m glad that they didn’t try to make the scene too sentimental. In the TV series, you do get the feeling that Arya has certain feelings for Gendry. Gendry probably doesn’t love Arya, but he respects her. And even if he liked her, he knows that there’s a social class gap between them, a gap that he will not try to overstep.

  487. Unbowd UnbentUnHodor
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe:
    Come on, Jon and Ygritte has AWESOME chemistry! It’s the one thing that saved Jon’s S2 story arc :)

    if only they continued it into this season. i think the whole cave scene was rushed. they needed more time together :(

  488. Darquemode
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Unbowd UnbentUnHodor,

    I think feeing rushed is a very common issue with Jon’s arcs on the series. I think the issue stems from the fact that so much of Jon’s story is about the characters he encounters and not a chain of impactful events like say Dany or Jaime etc.

    With an event driven story the writers can trim away some nuance and detail and the viewer is left seeing the event itself. With a character driven arc (such as Jon’s) the writers trim away details and the viewer is left with half-developed characters that simply do not have the same impact as in the books.

    The second half of this season and next season could shift that pattern somewhat….
    At least I hope!

  489. Jentario
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    I’m calling it right now. Melisandre will replace the Ghost of High Hill when she takes Gendry.

  490. Cary Storm
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    You’ve won my internet for the day.

  491. alexandria
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    very homophobic …. they show straight sex scenes all the time, what’s wrong with giving gay fans a little eye candy. You don’t think they should treat gay and straight sex the same? You probably didn’t complain about the scene with Ros’ getting down with a skinny chic and messing with her butthole scene…. get over yourself

  492. Phalange
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Take it easy on Arthur people. He’s still coming to terms with his latent desires.

    It’s not his fault he’s so far into the closet that he can see Narnia. Plus he’s gotta share that space with R. Kelly so that’s probably making him cranky.

  493. Jaqen is Q
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Zack: Mark

    I had the exact same idea, except for dream flashbacks. Robert=Gendry, Lyanna=Arya, Catelyn=Sansa, Aerys=Viserys maybe… stuff like that!

  494. Arya4 thhewin
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Michael S.,

    It was a great scene, but he definately meant ‘M’lady’ as in the class divide. He didn’t my ‘my lady’ as in she’d be his girlfriend. Not sure if that’s what you thought. ‘You wouldn’t be my family, you’d be m’lady’ as in he would always be a commoner and she a lady if he went with her to her family.

  495. lmm
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one that laughed when Brienne stood up and Jamie looked down, possibly realizing he might be aroused?

    Well-written scene BTW.

  496. Asha Karina
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    GingerBeard:
    Ed,

    I use the term Gaycist, when referring to people who dislike gays (as it relates more to racism and discrimination than to actual phobias)… just exchange the word “Black” or Jewish” for “Gay” and you will see how it relates… for there are, of course,people who do not like seeing black people represented as being equal to white people, and we rightfully call them racists.

    God , you saved my reading of this thread… I thougt homophobia was becoming the new chic among geeks… I am feeling very uncomfortable with all that amounts of disgust towards gay sex. To quote someone, it made me throw up in my mouth…
    And i feel that gay friendly GOT is a proof that we are not stucked in the 19 th century.

  497. bwar
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    The Jaime scene was absolutely incredible. Probably my favorite moment of the season. Jaime’s whole story with Brienne drastically changed my view of him and that scene is the moment he became one of my favorite characters. Shireen was also excellent. She really makes you fall for her character immediately especially when she sneaks down to see Davos.

    I was rather disappointed with Beric’s scars I was thinking that his torso would appear much more grotesque. I also didn’t like how Arya has been coming off since she was picked up by the Brotherhood. She was always such a strong and determined girl and now seems like an entitled brat. Really looking forward to her story arcs after this season.

  498. bwar
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Since everyones commenting on the sir Loras scene I might as well chime in; Loras must be exceptionally gifted to be able to have sex while still having pants on.

  499. Helen
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    bwar:
    Since everyones commenting on the sir Loras scene I might as well chime in;Loras must be exceptionally gifted to be able to have sex while still having pants on.

    LOL! Kind of like Stannis from Season 2…

  500. Helen
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    I also got the sense that Gendry’s “you’ll be m’lady” was non-romantic. The age difference is still apparent and I’m pretty sure that Arya and Gendry are too busy trying to survive to really consider their romantic feelings. I ship them pretty hard but when it comes to GRRM I doubt there will be a happy ending for them! At least not for a while… Book Arya is what, 11 or 12 by Dance of Dragons?

    http://tiny-tran.blogspot.ca/2013/04/crystal-clay-game-of-thrones-part-2.html

  501. WildSeed
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe: It’s just an opinion.

    I hear you Mags , your opinion is respected And appreciated. I shared mine with you,
    that’s okay isn’t it ? Your perspective holds no rankings in that. Some may express
    more insights or maybe aspiring industry insiders, yet hardly telling ( unless
    correcting a simple mistake of fact ). I’ve welcomed this, and have been corrected
    many times, when there has been error. If only my POV, well, to each their own (:

    You’re always correct in appreciating the effects of any thing, that’s Yours alone.
    No one knows that better than you *>*

    You’re definitely not alone in your appreciation of Kit’s and Rose’s chemistry.
    I am a little underwhelmed by Kit’s acting thus far, perhaps it’s the script.
    On balance with the cooperation of other players at the camp, the story
    becomes more believable. As a character he has to be reserved a bit, on guard,
    so to speak. he is constantly monitored and in enemy camp.I’m also
    much spoiled as a reader of those scenes, and fully aware of the notable
    instincts that Jon that propels him to effectively satisfy his captors/ Free
    Folk .Thankfully his story endures on the television series, so there’s
    still time to salvage any missed beats.
    Jon Snow is one of the characters
    I’d most admired from readings, not The most, but one whose story remains
    remarkable. Sad to say, I was always confused by the entry and exit
    of Ygritte. Her words ” You know nothing , Jon Snow “, forever remain with
    me nonetheless. And , Rose Leslie is a ginger beauty to behold, almost
    authentic Norse woman, despite of her Scottish origins. I’m happy the two
    of them are happy in real life.

    Not sure if you commented earlier about NCW……..

    You’re not alone in your appreciation of Nicolaj’s portrayal in this episode , and
    the script adaptation, btw. There’s much chatter about this. I personally
    considered a fine performance, which I’d stated, however it did not rate as best
    scene for me. I’m also cringing at the writers eagerness to rush certain
    insights regarding specific characters. Jaime’s humiliation and moments
    of clarity is just a first step in his ” redemption ” process
    .

    I’m most disappointed in little mention of the Direwolves and other mystic
    connections, but I’m being silly in this. The series is still young, and the
    production has had to choose from a long list of detail on the subject. I
    will stay tuned for what the future holds on GoT television.

  502. Bryan Cogman
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Helen,

    Hi all,

    I’ll clear this up right now. Gendry’s “my lady” line is about their class difference.

    That’s it!

    Glad so many of you enjoyed the episode.

    Best,
    B

  503. WildSeed
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    Good work. As far as I can surmise, the ratings on this site for the episode
    is somewhere between a high 4 or 5 ( 5 being the max ). You scored high marks ser !

  504. Jill Pantozzi
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    For now… :)

  505. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I think people just heard the emotional music kick in and were like “awwwwwww….he loves her”

  506. Staeven
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Episode summary coming later…
    Winter is Coming!

  507. Meg
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    scout: er so much. Since this Brienne is obviously attractive, how will that affect her insecurities? She has to feel unworthy for her storyline to work, and after that bath scene, who could think her unworthy?!

    Through the modern Western viewer’s eyes she may be “obviously attractive,” but by Westerosi standards? No way is she “petite” “demure” and “frail” — feminine qualities that I would argue are associated with attractiveness for women in this world.

    Also, ANY woman can feel insecure about herself no matter what she looks like. Sometimes people assume that beautiful women don’t have any anxieties about their appearance, because hey, they’re beautiful! Men find them attractive! Brienne has a nice ass so she must be perfectly well adjusted! I’m sure you can see how this is problematic.

    Not to mention, what the hell is “beautiful” and “attractive” anyway. This is why I hate discussions about her – all we do is think of attractive v. ugly, as if there was some kind of checklist.

    The reason why it’s all bullshit is this: No matter who you are or what you look like, someone out there is going to LOVE that part of you that makes you insecure. I hope this is the lesson that Brienne comes to learn by the end of the series.

  508. DH87
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Cadeyrn: Well, if GRRM doesn’t get 6 and 7 done fast enough, there is easily enough material to go back and do a prequel on the Mad King and the Baratheon rebellion. Not sure if the actors can play their younger selves though, but wouldn’t that be sweet?

    That’s already in the works.
    http://www.slashfilm.com/hbo-is-considering-a-game-of-thrones-prequel-series-says-george-r-r-martin/

  509. Hodor
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Bwar:

    “She was always such a strong and determined girl and now seems like an entitled brat.”

    But Arya has been BOTH since the first season, so what are you complaining about? :)

    Even in the first episode in the first season you saw that Arya was not like your ordinary, obedient little girl. She liked to tease her brother and she could very angry at both her sister and father. She’s a bit rebellious and she can be a little brat now and then, but she’s not mean.

    She can be quite outspoken sometimes, but she has feelings and can be quite emotional. After all, she’s only a young girl.

    You could also argue that she’s been psychologically traumatized, and that these ‘emotional’ scars have affected her behaviour to a certain degree. These events seem to have filled her with feelings of hate towards certain people, but for good reasons (at least from her point of view).

    She’s not living in the safe surroundings of Winterfell anymore, she’s “alone” (in the sense that she’s no longer with her closest family members), she’s seen the fate of her father, and she tries do to her best to survive. No wonder that she can be a bit temperamental and difficult sometimes, especially when she was a bit rebellious to begin with.

    Maisie Williams has been terrific as Arya. Looking forward to see more of her this season.

  510. Hodor
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Helen:

    I also got the sense that Gendry’s “you’ll be m’lady” was non-romantic.

    This has already been answered by Bryan Cogman himself earlier in this thread :)

  511. DH87
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    You trained thespian, you: any chance you’ve had your eye on an upcoming role in Season Four? Have you been secretly practicing swordplay or perfecting your High Valyrian?

  512. Lina
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Somewhere on tumblr teenage girls are cursing Bryan Cogman right now. ;)

    I always thought Gendry was talking about the class difference (especially since he’s just finished talking about the democracy of the Brotherhood). But I like that the scene even caused a debate about what he meant. I think the actors have great chemistry and the characters deeply care for each other as friends, and that clearly came through.

  513. The Purist
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    Ed: I think a big part of many people’s disappointment in this scene is that there’s virtually no chemistry between them. I don’t feel a thing.

    Dany and Drogo? They had MAD chemistry, it WORKED on screen!

    Jon & Ygritte? Zilch.

    I’ll take your word for it, because I was too busy cringing at the character assassination of Halfhand to pay attention to Jon’s storyline in S2. Plus, Kit’s acting ability seems limited. But from reading the comments here and from other websites, many people seems to like the thing going on with Jon and Ygritte in S2, so strange how they didn’t continue with that development this season and went straight with the cave scene. Even the most hardcore GoT fan got to admit how they developed their relationship was rushed and inconsistent.

    Alex Dubrovsky: Dialog from sometime in the future:

    Someone to Loras:
    - You’ll marry Cercei Lannister.
    Loras:
    - Where do I sign for the Kingsguard?

    Problem solved.

    Or the Tyrells can simply refuse wedding Loras to Cersei, seeing as Loras isn’t a hostage like Sansa. Can’t see how Loras will take the white, seeing as Loras is a horn dog who sleep with any guy who pays attention to him. Another character ruined by this show… Also, how do you know “Linda” is my safe word?

  514. Thethoughtful1
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    I really hope that Joffery’s wedding does not take place this season… How can they do the wedding when Oberyn Martell has not been cast yet. And as all book readers know, the Red Viper plays a key roll in what goes down after Joffery gets what he’s had coming to him for a long time.

  515. scout
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    lmm:
    Am I the only one that laughed when Brienne stood up and Jamie looked down, possibly realizing he might be aroused?

    In the book Jaime’s disturbed by the fact that he IS aroused by her. I don’t know if that was intentional or not, but if it was, it was a nice non-verbal nod to the source material.

  516. scout
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Meg: Through the modern Western viewer’s eyes she may be “obviously attractive,” but by Westerosi standards? No way is she “petite” “demure” and “frail” — feminine qualities that I would argue are associated with attractiveness for women in this world.

    Also, ANY woman can feel insecure about herself no matter what she looks like. Sometimes people assume that beautiful women don’t have any anxieties about their appearance, because hey, they’re beautiful! Men find them attractive! Brienne has a nice ass so she must be perfectly well adjusted! I’m sure you can see how this is problematic.

    Not to mention, what the hell is “beautiful” and “attractive” anyway. This is why I hate discussions about her – all we do is think of attractive v. ugly, as if there was some kind of checklist.

    The reason why it’s all bullshit is this: No matter who you are or what you look like, someone out there is going to LOVE that part of you that makes you insecure. I hope this is the lesson that Brienne comes to learn by the end of the series.

    I in no way disagree with your comments – I have my own insecurities, like most women, but the people in my life who love me don’t give a hoot. That’s generally how it works. And I know that in the books Brienne’s size causes many of her insecurities. But book Brienne also has ideas of what feminine beauty is “supposed” to be, and believes she doesn’t embody it (I’m not talking just size here, but how pretty her face is – GRRM spends quite a bit of time talking about her facial features and how poorly they fit together). Which is one of the reasons I love their choice of having her stand up in defiance of Jaime’s words, and embrace her own womanhood. Gwendoline Christie has a nice comment about it in one of the HBOGO links for this ep (on a sidenote, GC has mentioned in interviews that her size contributed to her own insecurities in the past, so there’s more support for your argument!). That said, I wonder how having her start building up her self-esteem now, rather than later in the books, will play out once she’s disfigured. In books 4 and 5, most of the Brienne chapters would leave us thinking she’s still quite insecure about her own beauty. And once her face is scarred, it gets even worse.

    Disfigurement vs beauty in general seems to be one of GRRM’s themes throughout the books. Look how many characters are disfigured: Tyrion, Jaime, Bran, Myrcella, Shireen, Willas, Davos (am I missing any?). Many of them are treated poorly because of their looks, but most of them are also more decent than the average Westerosi. I would say GRRM definitely places the priority on inner beauty, rather than outer beauty (not that THAT will keep you alive longer in Westeros!). And that’s a good theme to have. And I agree with you – I hope Brienne, Tyrion, Shireen and the others all figure that out as they make their way through the books/seasons.

    I’m jumping around a bit with my answer here – sorry! – but most of the time when casting, the actors playing “ugly” characters are going to be more attractive than their characters are supposed to be. That’s just a fact of life. You have to balance the skill of the actor with their looks, and there just aren’t that many good actors out there who physically match all the physical traits a writer gives his characters. I have no problem with that. Willing suspension of disbelief, right? It just seems to me that GRRM gave book Brienne just about every physical characteristic he could (as well as heartless people to reinforce them) to beat her down, so that she could take this journey and grow into herself. TV Brienne doesn’t seem to have as many things to overcome. That was all I really meant, and my “after that bath scene, who could think her unworthy?!” was mostly a throwaway comment of appreciation. I WISH my ass looked as good as hers!

    Good arguments, btw!

  517. Prince of Pentos
    Posted April 30, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Bodiccuh,

    Thanks for your comment.

    1. I actually somehow managed to completely miss the “m’lady” and “my lady” distinction in that dialogue (not from not being able to hear or understand the difference!, but by being distracted by the emotional aspects of the scene), and, like a few others here, had the impression Gendry might have been suggesting something romantic (even though this wasn’t in the book).

    This was, of course, thankfully not the case, but from that viewpoint, calling her “my lady,” as in, his future wife, seemed a bit presumptuous. There has been a lot of fan speculation regarding any romance between them, and perhaps I assumed/feared the show writers had bent to popular demand a bit. Although it couldn’t hurt that much!

    2. As for sound strategy, attacking Casterly Rock (as Robb DID, in a way, in the book, although not the castle itself but it’s fertile and wealthy hinterlands), is actually not as brilliant as it seems. Casterly Rock is a fortress almost as formidable as King’s Landing itself, can easily be resupplied by the sea, and even seizing it wouldn’t change so much on the ground as the fact remains that Robb is outnumbered and doesn’t have many viable ways of restoring his strength.

    Robb has a similar dilemma perhaps to that of Hannibal during the second Punic War. Hannibal won every major engagement, even against superior numbers, was able to rally some allies in the Italian peninsula while on the offensive (like Robb in the Riverlands), and also able to threaten many important Roman centers, but didn’t have the strength to take Rome itself or beat the “easily” replenishable and quite large Roman army (even after major Roman defeats) on any field — only in carefully chosen locations (speaking generally). This restricted his options.

    The only long-term way to “win the peace” is by securing one’s own source of replenishable strength and by successfully thwarting any enemy attempts to take it (and maybe eliminating the enemy’s source). Hannibal failed in this — Carthage was attacked, but Hannibal at least had the wisdom to try and save it. On the long-run, Hannibal’s position in Italy was untenable without Carthage and it’s empire.

    With Robb, without the North, he can’t gain reinforcements, and has a very small window of opportunity to succeed before his strength has dissipated. Tywin doesn’t have quite the same pressure as the “royal” King’s Landing lands (formerly Targaryen lands) and the Reach are still with him. And nominally the rest of Westeros.

    SO, it’s not without reason that in the book, Robb’s ultimate mission in the end is to retake the North and secure it at Moat Cailin.

    Robb’s comment about how “if they returned home,” he wouldn’t be able to rouse the lords and men again to go on a “mission” was a bit silly I thought as wouldn’t they then have achieved exactly what they sought? The independence of the North as semi-compensation for Eddard’s beheading? If Tywin hides in King’s Landing, that’s great! — for all intents and purposes, they already won (in the goal of independence) as they were able to defeat Tywin in the field and end the threat to the North’s independence. Of course, they have to keep winning, in case Tywin tries again to bring the North into the southern fold, but that doesn’t necessarily imply itching for another battle, luring Tywin out, and so on. Taking K’sL only made sense when the Lannisters still had Eddard.

    In the show, especially after the last episode, despite all of the episode’s merits, Robb’s war aims have only become vaguer, even more so than in the book.

    How about that?

    As mentioned, I also think “fighting-to-retake-the-North” would have been more emotionally appealing for the audience, with of course a healthy dose of emotional and epic music, and then to have all that come crashing down, all hopes destroyed!, but anyway. All good! I guess they wanted to give Robb one last “glory moment” before his (bloody) send-off, which I can understand… But who knows.

  518. ohime
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    While re-watching this episode, I find it really sad to watch how difficult and draining the war is on Robb, how much of a empty-shell Cat is becoming, and how lonely and sad Arya is about her father but all are determined to get the family back together … and then you see Sansa happy and giddy at the prospect of marrying into the family that is fighting against her family – a marriage that would effectively ending all hope of her brother and mother’s efforts to get her back and make all the efforts and losses thus far in the war basically for nothing.

    Why can’t she see this? It makes her seem like she doesn’t care about her family at all!

  519. argilac's antler
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    ohime:
    While re-watching this episode, I find it really sad to watch how difficult and draining the war is on Robb, how much of a empty-shell Cat is becoming, and how lonely and sad Arya is about her father but all are determined to get the family back together … and then you see Sansa happy and giddy at the prospect of marrying into the family that is fightingagainst her family – a marriage that would effectively ending all hope of her brother and mother’s efforts to get her back and make all the efforts and losses thus far in the war basically for nothing.

    Why can’t she see this? It makes her seem like she doesn’t care about her family at all!

    Although I wonder at how much information is Sansa getting about what’s going on outside King’s Landing, especially about the war. She may have next to no knowledge (except for Littlefinger telling her her mother wishes to see her again), and is probably trying to make the best of her bad situation. The best being married off to the Tyrells who have shown her nothing but kindness and taken away to Highgarden far from her tormentors.

    But again, she does know her mother spoke with Littlefinger and wants her back, and Littlefinger *says* he wants to reunite them. Littlefinger’s plan does seem to be the better vs Highgarden, but also runs the risk of incuring Joffery’s wrath if they are caught. Whereas Margery’s plan comes with Queen Margery’s assurance .

    So what’s poor Sansa to do? Wait for the new queen’s decree or leave with Littlefinger with the risk of getting caught?

  520. Tyrion4Lyfe
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    The Red River Viper:
    In my opinion this episode was the best thus far. From Jaime’s monologue to Tywin’s scolding…..however, I did have issue with Selyse calling one of her stillborn Edric. Edric is Robert’s son. They could have used a thousand other names. Other than that, great episode, and hell of a way to kick it off with the battle between Beric and Sandor…..

    My theory is that they will use Edric the stillborn son as the “king’s blood” sacrifice instead of implying that a living child should be sacrificed (might be crossing the line for TV standards at that point).

  521. ohime
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    argilac’s antler,

    Sansa has enough information to know that marriage is a way to tie two families together, her own mother and father’s marriage was such a marriage.

    Margery marriage to Joffery should be enough info for Sansa to understand that marriage to Loras would mean joining Joffery’s side in the war.

    As for the Tyrell kindness, Cercei and Joffery also showed her nothing but kindness and she know how that ended – she is ready to throw away her one chance to reunite with her family because she has a few nice conversations with Margery and loras is handsome… girl should be wiser by now.

    “Queen Margery’s assurance” i think she knows Joffery well enough to know that noone can stop him if he is displeased, he will be KING and even the QUEEN can not always guarantee how Joffery will behave. so no, i wouldn’t trust Joffery to act in any way, no matter how Margery thinks she can control or counsel him.

    “So what’s poor Sansa to do?” – she should take the risk and leave KL – anywhere away for Joffery and KL would give her a better chance than staying, imho

  522. Bean
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    The Purist,

    Interesting points.

    They do make Robb look a little dumber by not giving a reason vocally. But even in the books, his reason was “I need to do this or I’ll have no honor in my troops’ eyes.”

    Now you may believe that was sage politicraft in the books, but while nicely stated (as Eddard would’ve), it’s actually fair to interpret his book quote as him clinging to this vision of northern character and justice that in the end wasn’t as strong as Tywin’s promises and traitorous desires. I think his acting in this episode communicated much the same – along with his intense frustration. At a minimum, his acting and the scene communicated the TV show Rob effectively (where he is, given his TV decisions in the past), so I see no fault with the episode on this. Any flaws in Rob’s and Catelyn’s story are the result of prior episode flaws.

    Ooverall I agree they make Robb and Catelyn both look dumber in the tv show than in the books. But given where they set them up, this episode didn’t worsen it.

    Loras in the TV show is just different than in the books. That’s not a flaw in the show, IMO, it’s a change. In the show, he is a different kind of young idiot than in the books. I have no problem with this, because I want the show to be good whether it’s the same as the books or not. Different doesn’t have to equal worse (though in most cases thus far, it has).

    As for Jon/Ygritte, you’re right the show didn’t develop their relationship as well as the book. But this episode simply let it be assumed their relationship developed “off screen” – which at least isn’t as bad as the characterst acting in stupid or non-credible ways. Sure, we missed out on what should’ve been good prior-episode dialogue and instead we got Pod and the whores. But this episode isn’t at fault given what it had to work with.

  523. Bean
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    ohime,

    Dude, you kidding me? Sansa – while of course an idiot – probably has good reason to feel mistrustful about both littlefinger and the hound. Both are characters that would make her tummy turn, given their treatment of her in the past.

    At least Olenna and the girls are seeming to treat her well. She’s an idiot (no one’s on her side, and she should know it), but given her options, she’s pretty much chosen as reasonable an option as any other.

  524. Ser WARZ
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    I agree with 90% of the above comments, the bath scene was excellent, yadda yadda. (I have just read thru 500 odd comments at this point so I’m a little jaded). But I am suprised that, as much as the fight scene between The Hound and Beric Dondarrion has been praised, nobody has really mentioned just how good Beric’s character was portrayed on screen.

    It’s blatently obvious that the BwB are directly influenced by the Robin Hood mythos and as a resident of Nottingham (UK) it is something that I have grown up with all my life. Dondarrion could easily have been portrayed as a prancing Errol Flynn type or even worse, a Kevin Costner mulleted style outlaw. Instead I was impressed at the world-weary, ressurected x-amount of times, everyman that we did get.

    Season 3 is smashing it out of the ball park so far.
    I hope that made sense, I’m drunk. That is all.

  525. The Purist
    Posted May 1, 2013 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Bean,

    Hi Bean, thanks for the civil response. Don’t get too many of that here. LOL

    Regarding Robb, I think it does a disservice to him to have it cut away straight to the beheaded than letting him do the speech then go to the beheading. It’s like an episode of the Simpsons, where Homer’s family or anyone smarter than Homer gave him some advice to not do anything stupid then it cuts to him doing some stupid. I agree that flaws on Robb and Catelyn are more prevalent in previous episodes than this one.

    Loras may not be like in the books, but it doesn’t excuse subpar writing. If he was to take the white to avoid marriage to Cersei, D&D better be pretty convincing on why he would do that because a) Tyrells could simply just refuse the offer b) being a horn dog in the show, wouldn’t appeal to him to take the white. We’ll just have to wait and see, but if D&D don’t have a good reason, it looks like Loras will be another character assassinated.

    I think that this episode could have shown some more time with Jon and Ygritte before the cave scene, especially it could have used it when the scene was jumping from scene to scene so quickly near the end when Littlefinger uncovered what the Tyrells were going to do with Sansa . But yes, the show mostly screwed up by not continue with the development of their relationship this season. You would think they would do that because it was the main reason why Halfhand was shafted last season.

    Lastly, is my eyes playing tricks on me? Is Shireen blonde? D&D and Cogman better have some explanation and not for the first time.

  526. siberia82
    Posted May 2, 2013 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Cogman has confirmed that Loras is Mace Tyrell’s only son on the show. This creates a minor plot hole because it no longer makes any sense for Loras to have joined Renly’s Kingsguard in Season 2. He would have to give up his claim to Highgarden. Although one could argue that Loras loved Renly so much that he would be willing to sacrifice the titles, lands and incomes, surely Mace would not support Renly’s claim to the throne if it meant that he would lose his sole male heir. Margaery’s children would be Baratheons, and this situation would eventually cause the main branch of House Tyrell to die out. Mace is somewhat stupid, but he’s not THAT stupid.

  527. scout
    Posted May 2, 2013 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    The Purist:
    Bean,

    Loras may not be like in the books, but it doesn’t excuse subpar writing. If he was to take the white to avoid marriage to Cersei, D&D better be pretty convincing on why he would do that because a) Tyrells could simply just refuse the offer b) being a horn dog in the show, wouldn’t appeal to him to take the white. We’ll just have to wait and see, but if D&D don’t have a good reason, it looks like Loras will be another character assassinated.

    Later on in the books when Jaime meets with Loras for the first time since getting back to KL, he realizes Loras is completely like Jaime was at that age. If that’s the case, maybe Loras joins the Kingsguard because it is an absolute honor to be invited, and he would be the second youngest person ever to wear the white cloak. Young, arrogant, immensely-talented Jaime was dazzled by the honor; I’m sure a young, arrogant, immensely-talented Loras would be too.

    What do you think?

    As for not wanting to join only because he’s a horn dog, am I wrong, or isn’t the oath that no kingsguard can marry or father children? I don’t think it’s considered breaking your oath if you have affairs, only if you father children while doing so. Loras would rather not marry, and he’s not likely to father children even if he has affairs! So he’s basically got a free pass…

  528. The Purist
    Posted May 3, 2013 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    scout,
    Dude, don’t need to explain stuff in the book to me, if you didn’t catch my name, I’m a book purist.

    That’s Jaime’s perspective doesn’t mean he’s 100% right about someone. There’s a problem to Loras joining the Kingsguard, whether for honor or not, D&D have dug themselves a hole. Seeing as in the show he’s heir to Highgarden (poor Willas), so I don’t really see how the Tyrells will let Loras take the white, unless the writer of the show have a stupid reason, which I wouldn’t put it pass them. The Kingsuard not only cannot marry, they have been sworn to celibacy, so another reason for horny tv Loras to not join the Kingsguard, especially when Tyrells could just simply refuse the offer.

  529. Kay
    Posted May 3, 2013 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    House Snow,

    I haven’t given a damn about show Loras since Renly has died.

  530. midsummer
    Posted July 13, 2013 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    I am actually grateful to the owner of this website
    who has shared this enormous paragraph at at this place.

  1. [...] note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask all the series veterans to refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or [...]


  • Recent Comments

  • Archives

    • 2014 (811)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •