Game of Owns: Brothers without Manners
By Winter Is Coming on in Podcast.

Here now is another recap of last night’s episode, this time in the form of a podcast. The usual Game of Owns crew is joined by yours truly to break down the various owns, figurative and otherwise, in “The Climb”.

Episode 93 – Brothers Without Manners

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Description: The story moves this week as Sunday night brings another brand new episode of HBO’s Game of Thrones for the viewing pleasure of all who choose to do so, and some who may not. In an otherwise complacent episode, violence has struck a chord with a selection of our hosts today, while others have been perpetually captivated in the beauty of what lies just south of the Wall.

 

Discussion Topics
Over the Great Valley
Too much violence?
Goodbye, Alphawhore
The ship sailed
Jealous Melisandre
Zealous Melisandre
Now, how do we get down?
Tywin and Lady Olenna
The Freys visit sunny Harrenhal
Troubles around the Wall
A transitional episode
French sleeves
Owns of the Show
Reading your Tweets
iTunes Reviews!


53 Comments

  1. spacechampion
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    Thanks the gods, old, new or red, a podcast to listen to!

    “Fringed” sleeves, not French.

  2. SkyAero
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    I like me some GOO!

  3. spacechampion
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Showing Ros’s fate was necessary, otherwise if she just disappeared viewers would come out with wild theories that she’s still alive.

  4. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Littlefinger-Joffrey interaction foreshadows the Purple Wedding where Littlefinger suggests that Joffrey use fighting dwarves (mounted on a pig and a dog) as entertainment.

    In essence, Littlefinger forms an alliance with Joffrey in order to facilitate his murder.

  5. Adria
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    I think the point of the violence is to make the reader/viewer uncomfortable. Some people have a harder time than others watching that sort of thing even though they know it’s not real. But those scenes are there to tell a story about peoples capcity for extreme cruelty as well as compassion. I often hear people say the violence is worse in the show, but I think it’s just more visually graphic because it is, well, visual.

  6. erin
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    spacechampion,

    I don’t understand why so many people misunderstood that.

  7. Debrisintheair
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    He said fringed sleeves, not French sleeves.

  8. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    The voice-over has been used two times previously on the show: Commander Mormont about going beyond the Wall in season one, and Cersei & Tommen in the throne room in season two. So it’s been used exactly once per season, thus far. And you could even count the transition between the scene with Davos & Shireen to Dany in Essos, if you wanted to be technical about it.

  9. Turri
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    I really enjoyed the one moment of clear knowledge discrepancy about upcoming events between the hosts. You could almost hear the “sullied” torn between smiles and pity, just like I’ve been in the same situation.

  10. House Farwynd
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    I appreciate the idea of having Gendry replace the bastard at Dragonstone. That way we could have some Gendry next season instead of having him underground with the BwB until who knows when.
    But then, I don’t understand why the Queen of Thorns was so much against Loras joining the Kingsguard. He’d already joined the fabulous Rainbow Guard – which I believe had the same rules, right? I think they’re making themselves a problem by eliminating his brothers…

  11. whiteladder1984
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    House Farwynd,

    Good point, but we don’t know that for sure. Maybe Renly relaxed that rule for his “Rainbow Guard”…?

  12. Maggy the Frog
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Ok, maybe I missed something, but I think Shae sold out Ros. Ros indicated she knew what Shae was, and I bet she sold her out to Littlefinger to silence her. It definitely suits Shae’s true nature in the books i.e. her betrayal of Tyrion.

  13. sunspear
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    I think showing Ros was important. They’ve been making it seem like Margaery might be redeeming Joffrey a little in the show, and her arrow filled body shoots that theory down (pun intended).

  14. gisizzlah
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    I love GOO!!

    I agree with you guys that it was a ‘transitional’ episode to really get the gears going for the remaining of the season…

    However, the violence especially with Theon I know a lot of ppl dont necessary like it but I like that we get to see what happens to Theon as it happens for tv…. rather than the end result like we got in the books…..

    PS: thx for reading my tweet again guys :)

  15. Panicintrinsica
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who has never had a problem with the violence in this show? It always surprises me when people go into stuff about how “unnecessary” or “hard to watch” any of it is. And it’s not like I’m the person who goes and watches crap like “Saw” or “torture porn”, but holy hell, is everyone that sensitive to a little flaying?

    And I’m honestly confused about how the Ros thing was particularly “gruesome”, it’s not like the drug it out and made you watch her get shot over and over and over for 20 min, it was a 5 second scene that was, at least by my standards, incredibly tame by this shows standards.

    Am I just broken or something? Because I am legitimately confused by people’s complaints about the show being “too violent”. For me, it’s just a part of the show/books, It’s not something I even consider as a “thing” any more than I would say “Damn, the trees on this show are so unnecessary!”

  16. Adria
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Panicintrinsica,
    No, you’re not the only one. I don’t have a problem with the violence. But the for the people who are sensitive to it, I think it’s enough to make them vocal about it. The people who aren’t sensitive to it aren’t going to say “That was a great episode, and by the way the violence totally didn’t bother me.” As for the Ros thing, I think what people are finding gruesome is what they already know about Joffrey and how he must have delighted in killing someone just for giggles. It is a quick scene, but it says so much more than it shows. Not that I had a problem with that.

  17. FictionIsntReal
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    I would have been fine if Littlefinger mentioned a client, we immediately cut to Joffrey loading his bow, and then never saw the body. We went without seeing Tyrion tell Sansa & Shae, we can infer what happens with Joffrey.

    I don’t think Melisandre ever needed “validation”, she was a rock-hard true believer even when Stannis was choking her. She’s seen the future in the flames and never doubted it.

    You think Melisandre was tricking everybody? Did you not see her give both to a smoke baby? How do you pull off an illusion that actually flies off and kills someone? She also seemed more surprised by the number of times Beric had come back and the fact that Thoros had done it, than the mere fact that her Lord can do that.

    I disagree that “no one got mad”. Tywin definitely seemed angry. I guess he’s always been the less jolly of the two.

  18. The Loon
    Posted May 6, 2013 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Fringed….fringed

  19. Richard
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    In regards to scenes of violence on the show… the only scenes I had a problem with were Joffrey telling Ros to beat the other whore with a scepter and the rat bucket/Tickler scene… I don’t like torture, but that’s the point of it, it’s supposed to make you uncomfortable. I don’t like the Theon torture scenes either, but only when it showed Boy peeling the flesh off. The dead Ros scene was disturbing because 1) Joffrey is off the deep end now and I just want him dead and 2) I didn’t want Ros to go out like that, she didn’t deserve it and it reminded me of the scene in SILENCE OF THE LAMBS when Hannibal escapes and made that body of one of the prison guards up above on his cage to represent a moth.

  20. sCor
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    The violence serves an important point. Theon is basically a “villain” in season 2 and a lot of people hated him and wished him the worst.

    Now he’s getting just that. By making it as horrifying as possible, it forces a lot of people to rethink their earlier opinions. Does Theon really deserve this?
    If the torture would happen offscreen not a damn would be given by many viewers.

    Also it is very important to establish the new “Boy” character. Joffrey did a lot of shit in the earlier seasons, but this new character is much worse. Joffrey is fascinated by violence, “Boy” enjoys it thoroughly. You can’t highlight that major difference without showing some horrifying torture.

  21. John Lindquist
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 3:06 am | Permalink

    FRINGE SLEEVES.

  22. Lisa
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    I really love listening to Game of Owns. But, seven hells, can one of you point out how sexist Eric (I think that’s his name? the one who previously liked Joffrey) is at times. He comes out with random, misogynistic comments at times. This week it was about how he blames Margaery for Joffrey sexualizing the crossbow. I know, I know, he’s likely joking around and it usually elicits a chuckle from me, but after a while it starts to grate. Plus, calling him out would be a natural segue into a segment about the plight of women in Essos and Westeros.

    Other than that, I really love everyone who contributes to the podcast, even the one I just complained about.

  23. Suzaku
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    The Ros shot (it was just a panning shot of a corpse, keep in mind) actually reminded me of a lot of medieval tapestries depicting arrow-riddled corpses. It had a composition almost like a painting, particularily the colors used and the way the bed frame framed the shot.

    Regarding Melisandre, I’m reminded of an interview before this season’s premier in which Martin said she was probably the character most misunderstood by the readers. She has PoV chapters in the books and I don’t think people realize how sincere she actually is. Whether she’s right or wrong, she has a great deal of conviction.

    Regarding the major plot change of combining Gendry with Edric, I think that’s probably going to be one of the best changes they’ll make in the series. Combining one minor, forgetable character with a well established one who gradually becomes less important? Good deal. There’s also the fact that Martin himself wrote the Gendry/Melisandre scenes next week, which Cogman confirmed a few weeks ago in the comments here.

  24. Suzaku
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Lisa:
    I really love listening to Game of Owns.But, seven hells, can one of you point out how sexist Eric (I think that’s his name? the one who previously liked Joffrey) is at times.He comes out with random, misogynistic comments at times.This week it was about how he blames Margaery for Joffrey sexualizing the crossbow.I know, I know, he’s likely joking around and it usually elicits a chuckle from me, but after a while it starts to grate. Plus, calling him out would be a natural segue into a segment about the plight of women in Essos and Westeros.

    I think it’s a fair point.

    In the books, Joffrey uses his crossbow to torture animals, as I recall. Margaery seemed to eroticize it in her scenes (as a way of controlling him, the way a dominatrix might use a fetish to control a submissive), and Littlefinger implied that Joffrey wanted to try “something new” meaning it hadn’t occured to him before. Sociopathic behavior often has a sexual component.

    As for the “plight of women in Westeros” — is there anyone in Westeros who isn’t in plight? It’s a shitty place all around, and I don’t know that women always get the worst of it. Certainly the abuses they face are different, but men and women are both pawns in the feudal system. Let’s not forget that we’ve seen thousands of men forcibly conscripted into military service being killed and maimed in wars that are basically games for the highborne, entire villages and farms burned to the ground, etc.

    Though, I don’t know that it really even needs to be discussed independantly as a fantasy series. It’s modeled after medieval Europe and seems pretty accurate to the historical period, so it’s not like this is a new vision of how women (or men) were treated in the world.

  25. Lisa
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Suzaku: I think it’s a fair point.

    In the books, Joffrey uses his crossbow to torture animals, as I recall. Margaery seemed to eroticize it in her scenes (as a way of controlling him, the way a dominatrix might use a fetish to control a submissive), and Littlefinger implied that Joffrey wanted to try “something new” meaning it hadn’t occured to him before. Sociopathic behavior often has a sexual component.

    As for the “plight of women in Westeros” — is there anyone in Westeros who isn’t in plight? It’s a shitty place all around, and I don’t know that women always get the worst of it. Certainly the abuses they face are different, but men and women are both pawns in the feudal system. Let’s not forget that we’ve seen thousands of men forcibly conscripted into military service being killed and maimed in wars that are basically games for the highborne, entire villages and farms burned to the ground, etc.

    Though, I don’t know that it really even needs to be discussed independantly as a fantasy series. It’s modeled after medieval Europe and seems pretty accurate to the historical period, so it’s not like this is a new vision of how women (or men) were treated in the world.

    Fair enough, and not something I necessarily thought about before. In that case, it would have been a good opening to discuss the eroticism of some sociopathic behavior in the show, or some relevant topic.

    My biggest problem with the comments is that they are just said and then completely ignored. In some cases, topics surrounding the female character Eric (again, I’m sorry if I’m getting his name wrong) comments on will eventually come up again. It’s the disjointed, random nature of the comments that bugs me. Instead of “I blame Margaery for sexualizing the crossbow, hahaha…moving on”, I wish there was a subordinator to explain the thought.

    I definitely recognize that I might be more sensitive to this than necessary. I really do value the service and entertainment Game of Owns provides and am feeling rather petty for this singular complaint.

  26. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Panicintrinsica:
    Am I the only one who has never had a problem with the violence in this show? It always surprises me when people go into stuff about how “unnecessary” or “hard to watch” any of it is. And it’s not like I’m the person who goes and watches crap like “Saw” or “torture porn”, but holy hell, is everyone that sensitive to a little flaying?

    And I’m honestly confused about how the Ros thing was particularly “gruesome”, it’s not like the drug it out and made you watch her get shot over and over and over for 20 min, it was a 5 second scene that was, at least by my standards, incredibly tame by this shows standards.

    Am I just broken or something? Because I am legitimately confused by people’s complaints about the show being “too violent”. For me, it’s just a part of the show/books, It’s not something I even consider as a “thing” any more than I would say “Damn, the trees on this show are so unnecessary!”

    A lot of, if not all of, the violence in the books is disturbing and repulsive, so I don’t get people feeling squeamish about flaying Theon’s finger or the shot of Ros’ corpse. The former scene is mostly pinned on Theon’s reactions and we never see Ros getting killed at all. The book really gets into the nitty-gritty of bodies exploding like watermelons (Blackwater Bay) and babies having their skulls smashed (sack of King’s Landing – with a disgusting detail about the brains being on Gregor’s fingers as he rapes Elia) and also has women being raped and torn apart by dogs (Ramsay).

    I thought most ASoIaF fans would’ve had tougher stomachs. *shrug*

  27. Rhaego Worldmounter
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    FRINGED!. You’re lucky I’m not your King, I wouldn’t let you wave your blunders around like a victory.

  28. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    I had missed that Thormund and Orell were missing from the final panorama shot featuring Jon and Ygritte kissing. Just before, they had still been packing up their gear. However, on my second viewing I did notice some other wildlings reaching the top in the far background, so maybe they went over to go help them.

    What no-one has mentioned is that Orell’s eagle was circling up above the Wall. Jon was giving the wildling the stink-eye for cutting the rope he and Ygritte were dangling by, but Orell’s ability to reconnoiter with the eagle is arguably the greater risk. Once Orell confirms Jon was lying about the number of Crows still at Castle Black, Jon is going to have a problem. That’s the trouble with climbing to the top: the only way forward is down.

  29. Debbie Boyett
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    I believe Loras said fringed sleeves, not French sleeves.

  30. Just a Random
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Re:Violence – this was the first episode where I had to actually turn away. It’s tough to see Theon get treated that way. But I think that scene and Ros show just how cruel their world is.

    On the podcast it’s mentioned this is important moving forward, I haven’t read the books so I’ll trust the statement.

    With Ros, it serves multiple purposes. 1) not only reinforces Joffrey’s sadistic nature we saw in season one, but shows as he gets older he’s growing into it. The pleasure he gets from hurting ppl is terrifying and now he’s gone beyond beatings. He has no moral compass and will kill for sport. 2) Littlefinger seemed genuinely mad about having a traitor in his ranks. He’s mad at himself, Varys, and Ros. He throws it into the face of Varys and basically says I had to do this bc you made me. Varys looked horrified but also never tried to save her or even find out if it was possible. It’s an exercise of power by Littlefinger, to show he knows more and will react accordingly, a possible warning for the future. 3) It closes the loop on Ros. For someone who was in the show so much, it’s too much of a leap to just say she left or something. So her death moves the story of Joffrey, Varys and Littlefinger.

    The violence, in my mind, reminds everyone that this is a tough world to live in. You could be killed at any time for any reason. It’s tough for us as fans bc we care about these characters and actively root for them.

    What say you fellow Pod listeners?

  31. Mister Stark
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    On a total side note.
    Anyone else notice that The Queen of Thornes, AKA Diana Rigg was also the main villain on Doctor Who this last episode.
    So sweet seeing Miss Peel get some acting action.
    AND her daughter was also in the show.

  32. Lars
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    I feel I need to respond to Selina’s question about “What was the point of Ros?” – I’m really surprised to hear such a question.

    What is the point of ANY minor character, whether or not they are in the books? Minor characters serve two purposes:
    1. To move the plot forward by their interaction with the protagonist, or
    2. To tell us more about the protagonist through their interaction. (or both)

    NONE of Ros scenes were really about Ros – they were about the more important characters she interacted with. Lets look at some examples:

    Season 1:
    – Tyrion scene in pilot, tells us about Tyrion and his whoring
    – Theon scenes throughout season 1, tells us about Theon’s background and insecurities
    – Littlefinger scene, tells us (awkwardly) about Littlefingers background
    – Pycelle scene, allows Pycelle to give us a history dump, and shows us he is playing older than he is

    Season 2:
    – whorehouse bastard slaughter scene, shows us (instead of tells us) about the cruelty of killing the children
    – her scene with Littlefinger about being sad, tells us about how ruthless Littlefinger is
    – her 1st Joffrey scene with the other whore, shows (instead of tells us) about the very sadistic nature of Joffrey
    – her scene with Vary’s, sets her up as a double agent, which is paid off in this latest episode

    Season 3:
    – her scene in the harbour with Shae/Sansa, reminds viewers of the stark family history in the north and the danger of Littlefinger
    – her scene with Vary’s, sets in motion the plot to marry Sansa to Loras
    – her death scene, again reminds us of Littlefinger & Joffreys danger

    So hopefully is is clear now what her purpose was. To tell us about the main characters and move the plot forward. Just like any minor character in any story.

  33. outdoorcats
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Loras said ‘fringed sleeves.’ It’s weird people keep hearing ‘French sleeves’ since it sounds nothing like ‘French sleeves’ to me and I’ve watched it twice (unless you thought Loras was suddenly talking in a really funny voice?) Am I going crazy?

  34. Bryan Cogman
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Lars,

    And LARS FOR THE WIN!

    I would add to that she anchored her own small tragic storyline to illustrate how the people on the margins are used and (sometimes brutally) discarded and forgotten by the power players in this world.

  35. Chase
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    I enjoy listening to this but I can’t be the only one who thinks Selina is extremely annoying and idiotic…. And that Eric is not very bright or observant at all… The others are great though.

  36. Lars
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman:
    Lars,

    And LARS FOR THE WIN!

    I would add to that she anchored her own small tragic storyline to illustrate how the people on the margins are used and (sometimes brutally) discarded and forgotten by the power players in this world.

    No, the entire GOT writing staff for the win, (B)ryan!

    Sorry for my long thesis on the topic, but after reading so much Ros blabbering I just had to put it out there. :-)

  37. Khaleesi in Training
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Love my weekly dose of GOO! :)

  38. zaprowsdower
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    You blame Margaery? For trying to stay alive while in the clutches of a sociopath? :-/ She is blameless.

  39. pntrlqst
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    Please tell me you didn’t pass up the opportunity to have Joff’s murder of Ros be motivated by the fact that she was believed to be Tyrion’s whore.

    1) He’d do it to impress Tywin (“The next whore I find in your bed, I’ll hang.”), as he tried to have Bran killed to impress Robert.
    2) Littlefinger just mentioned the Tyrion/Ros mistake from s2e8 in s3e3. Since LF is going to poison Joff, this would be a perfect way for him to set up Tyrion.
    3) Cercei now has ample reason to blame Tyrion for Joff’s murder.

    If this is the way you guys went, I think it is perfect.

  40. Eleusis
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    I loved Ros and the light she shone on the plight of the lower classes. I get what you guys were going for here, but I wish she’d been given a voice in her final episode. Having her not appear in it at all until the shot of her corpse was, I thought, a disservice to the character.

  41. Turri
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,
    Oooohh, that’s a very good idea. I can see it tying in with Shae’s betrayal, Sansa’s disappearence and the “Joffrey challenges Tywin” business perfectly.

  42. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Eleusis,

    How can it be a disservice to her character when it was the author’s full intent to make you upset at her death? This not only services the character, it honours the character. Her tragedy will now make me appreciate her role in the story in my rewatch. My god even the LF lesbian monologue in season 1 can be seen in new light.

    It sucks that she never got a final voice, but that was the point. The sudden death, the ignominious end. Even in death she was beautiful and even her expression shows defiance, no rictus of terror just acceptance of her fate. It was a tragic, malicious and artistic end for Ros. I won’t think of her character the same way again.

    RIP Ros

  43. Markus
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    I was mostly afraid of Ros character becoming a different kind of beast, the writters falling too much in love with their own creation and increasing her importance in the future by having her be shipped to be Ramsay’s bride in Winterfell, now that I dont have to fear that I think in hindsight I really appreciate her revealing so many aspects of important players. The bedroom is afterall a very private room where you can reveal alot about characters, Theon’s insecurity beeing something Ros could see throught quite easily, Pycelle’s tricks to survive looking old, Jeoffrey’s sadism, Littlefinger’s ruthless manners to stay ahead in the game.

  44. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Re: Melisandre, I think what we were seeing is awe and fear is always a part of awe. Plus, she was a little bit jealous of Thoros, she said, “you should not have this power!” Then who should, Melisandre….You? Also, Melisandre went by ship, MUCH faster.

    Re: Thoros, what it says about him? Maybe that he’s humble. Maybe the Lord of Light shows favor to the humble. OR bringing Beric back served the Lord of Light’s agenda, which we are not really sure of….and we haven’t been told whether that agenda is good or evil. OR Melisandre really isn’t “in” with the Lord of Light, at least not as much as she thinks she is.

    Re: Olenna and Tywin, that was a fab scene. The reason it was so different from others interactions is because they actually feel as if they’re equals. Did you notice how Tywin gave her his full attention, shared wine with her, very open and brutally honest, all the cards were on the table–something he didn’t do with his kids or anyone else for that matter. Also, they might not like each other (let’s face it, Tywin doesn’t like anyone) but they definitely respect one another.

    The Frey brothers, the white trash of Westeros. The Freys always wanted Edmure, even before the Robb promise, because they want someone in their family to be heir to Riverrun. It’s not just an apology they’re asking for, it’s a power play. In regards it being unfair….The Stone Mill was a violation of orders….that’s a HUGE “no no” and if the consequences had been worse, Robb would have been able to punish Edmure very severely. The consequences of missing an opportunity to get The Mountain was bad enough. So Edmure doesn’t deserve too much sympathy. I think a lot of people in the audience without a military background may not have understood what a big deal the Stone mill was.

    Even though Harrenhal castle is destroyed it comes with all of it’s land AND it sits in a very strategic position. All those tenants on the land, all that new income, more fields/farms, base for a new building on the old at a good strategic geographic position…Plus, there’s not that many open lands without a lord in control of them left. So Lords have to expand their lands by force OR inherit them via marriage OR be given them. For all those reasons, Harrenhal is coveted by quite a few old and new Lords.

    I can’t stand Theon but torture like that is just beyond the pale. I don’t know how much more torture they will show–I don’t think much. But knowing the long term story, they have to establish how Theon changes to become who he is later in the story.

    Jojen’s vision was not random! Bran and Co are trying to reach Jon at the Wall and they think he at Castle Black on the South side….it’s very important they know that.

  45. RDL
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Just a Random:
    Re:Violence – this was the first episode where I had to actually turn away. It’s tough to see Theon get treated that way. But I think that scene and Ros show just how cruel their world is.

    On the podcast it’s mentioned this is important moving forward, I haven’t read the books so I’ll trust the statement.

    With Ros, it serves multiple purposes. 1) not only reinforces Joffrey’s sadistic nature we saw in season one, but shows as he gets older he’s growing into it. The pleasure he gets from hurting ppl is terrifying and now he’s gone beyond beatings. He has no moral compass and will kill for sport. 2) Littlefinger seemed genuinely mad about having a traitor in his ranks. He’s mad at himself, Varys, and Ros. He throws it into the face of Varys and basically says I had to do this bc you made me. Varys looked horrified but also never tried to save her or even find out if it was possible. It’s an exercise of power by Littlefinger, to show he knows more and will react accordingly, a possible warning for the future. 3) It closes the loop on Ros. For someone who was in the show so much, it’s too much of a leap to just say she left or something. So her death moves the story of Joffrey, Varys and Littlefinger.

    The violence, in my mind, reminds everyone that this is a tough world to live in. You could be killed at any time for any reason. It’s tough for us as fans bc we care about these characters and actively root for them.

    What say you fellow Pod listeners?

    Agreed. This is the only comment I’ve seen that understands the meaning behind the scene as I did.

  46. Lars
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    I have to come to the show’s defence on another point, frequently brought up in this podcast – Travel times in Westeros. (this time re: Melisandre to the river lands – and last season re: teleporting Littlefinger)

    Some episodes pick up right where another ends. But sometimes there is months that pass in between. And there is an unknown amount of time that passes between scenes in an episode. Some episodes cover a relatively short time – others must cover a long time, with the scenes spread out.

    This is a necessary thing, since every season seems to cover between 6-12 months of “show time”. We’re not watching “24″ here.

    Could the passage of time be made clearer? Yes, probably. But I haven’t really seen clear proof any travel that breaks “book map canon”.

  47. Gayle Gunn
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    The red woman was talking about Aria becoming a faceless person

  48. WompWomp
    Posted May 7, 2013 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Lisa,

    I agree with Suzaku that the Marg comment was an observation fairly established by the show. She effectively normalized Joff’s morbid curiosity with her involvement, even if she was playing him. While there isn’t a directly causal effect here, it’s certainly a contributing factor. Ros target practice was effective for being a payoff to Littlefinger’s Lyseni monologue last year, the Ros-Varys connection this season and last year, and Joffrey’s interactions with Margaerey earlier this season.

    I see your point though, about the content of this podcast. They’re certainly indulgent with the ridiculous banter this week at several points. Some is welcome, but I register the grating sensation too. When there is more of that filling up airtime, you get less conversation, which has been a real strength of this podcast, to the point I actually listen to this week to week. This became my first regular podcast ever for the great discussions in previous episodes. Having such an insightful episode with Cogman on board was the GoT highlight of my week when it aired. I have to admit, though, the insubstantial banter in excess seems to be seeping through, in both the first season commentaries and now the episode discussions. It’s their show, it’s all up to them how they run it, but they’re not playing up their strengths in some of their latest output. And I have to agree, there was that one guy who seemed to have the least to say this episode but happened to talk more often and louder than the rest. We all like to joke with our friends, and personality can go a long way, but this is one in a sea of podcasts. I hope the gang sticks to their core, their hook, which is a thoughtful and enthusiastic conversation about GoT from fresh perspectives. I know they can do it, and I really hope that one contributor doesn’t just stop at being “that joke guy.” Spinning everything as anti-comedy means less time for what I’m betting a lot of us, readers and non-readers alike, really love about this group’s work.

  49. WildSeed
    Posted May 8, 2013 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor:
    Eleusis,

    How can it be a disservice to her character when it was the author’s full intent to make you upset at her death? This not only services the character, it honours the character. Her tragedy will now make me appreciate her role in the story in my rewatch. My god even the LF lesbian monologue in season 1 can be seen in new light.

    It sucks that she never got a final voice, butthat was the point. The sudden death, the ignominious end. Even in death she was beautiful and even her expression shows defiance, no rictus of terror just acceptance of her fate. It was a tragic, malicious and artistic end for Ros. I won’t think of her character the same way again.

    RIP Ros

    Well struck ser, I felt the same way, such tragedy. To add : RIP Ros.

  50. WildSeed
    Posted May 8, 2013 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    WompWomp: content of this podcast

    WompWomp: ridiculous banter this week at several points

    I simply had to quit listening. I couldn’t take it anymore. Compared to last week
    or even the introductory one with Winter Phil, this one was an embarrassment .
    Not the end of the world, just missed their stride this week. Luckily there’s a
    next time *>*

  51. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted May 8, 2013 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Suzaku,

    I don’t think people realize how sincere she actually is. Whether she’s right or wrong, she has a great deal of conviction.

    I wonder if Martin means that people misunderstand her sincerity or if they misunderstand whether she is good or evil (although no one is truly good or evil in this series and behavior is on a continuum). I never doubted her sincerity in the books or the show. And it’s important to point out that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” (IF her intentions are good, that is)

    I do doubt her ability because she later misunderstands or misinterprets a vision about Arya. And I definitely doubt that her agenda is good for anyone but her god. There’s nothing in the books or show to indicate that the Lord of Light is a benevolent god and much to indicate that he isn’t. In the end I’m not so sure that Melisandre is any better than the The White Walkers. Evil, regardless of it’s source, is still evil. I half hoped that Arya would kick her a$$ the last episode. Oh Arya, can’t wait til she becomes a force to be reckoned with.

  52. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted May 8, 2013 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Turri,
    I hadn’t thought about Shae being the one to tell LF about Ros before either! And remember Shae was none to happy to find out that Tyrion had slept with Ros in the past. Shae seems to be a VERY jealous person.

    So if Shae did out Ros and Tyrion finds out, he is going to be royally pissed.

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