Recap

Episode 29 – The Rains of Castamere – Recap

Robb Stark

Episode nines are always pivotal episodes and this one certainly continued that trend. Head after the break for my thoughts on tonight’s episode, “The Rains of Castamere”.

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Storm of Swords. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ASoS yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book reader recap. Thanks!

The episode opens with Robb and Catelyn discussing plans. Robb wants to know Catelyn’s opinion on his plan of getting men from Walder Frey and then taking Casterly Rock. Catelyn is on board. “Show them what it is like to lose what they love.”

In the North, Jon and the wildlings have come up a horse farmer. Tormunsd wants to kill him and steal the horses, Jon says to take the horses and leave the farmer alone, killing the farmer is just going to catch the attention of the Night’s Watch. Tormund says that is what he wants. They attack the farmer, but Jon smacks his sword against a stone during their charge, warning the farmer who jumps on a horse and gallops away. The wildling track him down outside an abandoned tower, where Jon is ordered to kill the farmer. He can’t go through with it and Tormund orders him killed. Jon defends himself, killing Orell in the process, but not before getting clawed in the face by his eagle. Some direwolves come to his rescue and Tormund holds Ygritte back, allowing Jon enough time to escape. Ygritte watches him go a mixture of pain and anger on her face.

Meanwhile, Bran and company are continuing their journey to the Wall. They stop at an abandoned tower for the night. The horse farmer rides up with the wildlings hot on his tail. The thunderstorm has Hodor rattled and hodoring loudly. Bran tries to silence him. “No more hodoring!” With Hodor not quieting down and Orell now suspicious of the noises coming from the tower, Bran wargs into Hodor, silencing him. Jojen is worried, however, that the wildlings will inspect the tower unless they are chased them off. He wants Bran to warg into Summer and attack them until they flee. Bran says he can only warg in his dreams, he doesn’t have command of it. Jojen counters that he just warged into Hodor and that a direwolf is nothing compared to a human. Bran concentrates and is able to control Summer and attack the wildlings, with Shaggydog following suit. With the wildlings gone, Bran makes the decision to split up, with Osha taking Rickon to the Last Hearth to keep him safe. Rickon says goodbye to Bran and then sets out as the Starks continue to scatter further and further apart.

One of those scattered Starks is currently traveling to the Twins, in an attempt to reunite with her family. Arya and the Hound come upon an old pig farmer headed to Edmure’s wedding and use the opportunity to take his wares for themselves. They arrive at the Twins but are turned away at the gates, being told that the wedding is over. During the conversation, Arya slips away and is able to find a group of northmen… who are subsequently slaughtered by some Frey men. Arya watches in horror as a caged Grey Wind is killed by Frey crossbowmen. She looks like she is about to do something rash, when the Hound clocks her on the head, knocking her out, and then carries her to presumed safety.

Inside the Twins, everything seemed to be going okay at first. Walder Frey received the King in the North and his men. Robb made his apologies to Walder and his daughters and then had a chance to leer at Talisa. The worst, however, seemed to be over and the wedding was still on. At the wedding, Edmure was surprised to discover his bride was much more pleasing to the eyes than he had hoped. At the wedding feast, the Blackfish jokes with Catelyn while Talisa tells Robb she wants to name their child Eddard, if it is a boy. All seems to be going well. But after Edmure and Roslin are taken out for the bedding, Lame Lothar Frey shuts the hall doors, the band begins playing the Rains of Castamere and the proceedings take an ominous turn. Catelyn notices that Roose Bolton is wearing mail under his shirt, but before she can say anything, Walder addresses the remaining guests. He says he wants to give Talisa a wedding gift and then all hell breaks loose. Catelyn realizing now that they are being betrayed, slaps Roose and screams Robb’s name as a warning, Robb makes a move towards Talisa, but it is too late; Lame Lothar pulls out a knife and repeatedly stabs Talisa in the belly. Other Freys are slitting throats and stabbing the Stark men still in the dining hall. The band has swapped their instruments for crossbows and are firing them at Robb and Catelyn. Walder looks on with an evil glint in his eye.

During a lull in the slaughter, Catelyn seizes a knife and pulls Walder’s wife out from under a table, holding her at knife point. She tells Walder to end this or she will kill his wife. Walder ponders the offer for a minute, “Then I will find another.” Robb rises to his feet, weakened from blood loss. He looks at Catelyn and says, not as the King in the North but as a scared boy, “Mother”. Roose Bolton steps up to him and plunges a knife into his belly. “The Lannisters send their regards.” Catelyn screams in agony then follows through with her threat and kills Walder’s wife. She stands there, in a stupor brought on by grief and pain and anguish, her heart completely broken and her will to live gone. Black Walder Frey comes up behind her and slits her throat, ending her life.

What I Liked

Red Wedding – This is a moment that many have been both anticipating and dreading for years. Reading it in the book was a gut punc, so how did the TV series do in managing to capture that feeling? Short answer: they nailed it. First they lull you into a false sense of security with what looks to be a happy wedding. But then the band starts playing “The Rains of Castamere”, the doors are closed and all of a sudden a huge sense of foreboding falls over the proceedings. The actual “red” part of the “Red Wedding” was as gruesome as one would imagine. Stabbing Talisa in her pregnant belly? The crossbow bolts pumped into Robb? Throats being slit? The rest of the Stark men being butchered? “The Lannisters send their regards.” Bloody and intense and emotional.
Catelyn – What a performance by Michelle Fairley in Catelyn’s final moments. The strength in those moments of terror. The raw emotion in her face and in her voice. The pain as she saw her eldest son die right before her eyes. Just an amazing death scene.
Arya – Poor Arya. So close. I liked all of the bits with her and the Hound. They are going to be a fun pair to watch heading into next season. But her seeing what was unfolding outside of the castle was gut-wrenching. First the Winterfell soldiers getting slaughtered and then Grey Wind (although the shot of his final breath was really fantastic). I knew they wouldn’t trick the viewers into thinking that Arya died as well though. That would just be too much to handle. (I’m pretty sure every single person who read her chapter in the book, skipped ahead to see if she was really dead or not.)
Queenscrown – Some other stuff happened in this episode! The Queenscrown sequence was, I thought, well done. It’s a tough sequence to film, with two different sets of characters in the same space but not directly interacting at all. Add on to that the action and warging and everything else. But I thought the staging was handled well and the stuff with Bran having to warg, first into Hodor and then into Summer, had the right amount of suspense. The only bit that was sort of cheesy was the bird attacking Jon. But really, how do you make a bird attacking someone NOT look cheesy?
Bran and Rickon say goodbye – So they finally split these two up. A great bit of acting by Art Parkinson in this goodbye scene; my heart was breaking for poor Rickon. I wonder about where they are going though. Will they really go to the Last Hearth? Or will they end up somewhere else? And will they show us their travels or will Osha and Rickon be off-screen for the foreseeable future?
The taking of Yunkai – While the bulk of the battle happened off-screen, the part they did show was pretty damn awesome. Jorah is a still a boss with a broadsword, Daario is a swashbuckling mercenary who kills as easy as breathing and HOLY SHIT GREY WORM WITH THAT SPEAR!! Knowing what was coming at the end of this episode, I loved that we got this bit of fist-pumping action.

What I Didn’t Like

Coldhands? – Still no Coldhands and it is certainly looking like they may not show him at all, what with Sam knowing about the door beneath the Wall already. Hopefully they are just waiting to show him as a bit of a cliffhanger-y ending for Bran’s storyline in the season finale.

What else is there to say? As usual, the show absolutely nails the big moments. I got sick to my stomach once Lame Lothar shut those doors and stayed so all the way through the end credits. The rest of the episode was really good too, but this episode will forever be remembered for the Red Wedding.

What did everyone else think? Commiserate in the comments and rate the episode in the poll.

796 Comments

  • …. HODOR! (warged)*snore*

    Everyone that’s read the books that didn’t think the scene was good enough have themselves to blame. It’s a case of letting expectations build too much for three seasons. I just reread the chapter yet again two nights ago and it’s never given me the same level of emotion that I had after my very first read. Knowing what’s going to happen in itself reduces the horror and hate of it. The way they did the scene on the show was close enough that that shouldn’t even be mentioned as an issue for not liking it. I don’t know what people would have wanted to make it better that wouldn’t have resulted in changing the whole damn thing from the book entirely. Complaining about ridiculously small things is pretty silly as well.

    The chapter in the book was no better or worse than the scene in the show. The thing that made it so great (meaning: awful) upon first read was the deaths of Robb and Catelyn. That just happened.

  • What an amazing episode. They did a great job of giving me that gut wrenching feeling I had while reading it.

    When the doors closed and the song started playing, wow that was intense. They did a fantastic job with the lead in. Talisa’s death in particular was tough to watch, a nice little shock for book readers if you had bought into the theories out there.

    Only complaint would have been the quick in/out of Bolton/Namless Soldier in the final blows. I would have liked to see the camera angles done better there. I had Bolten with a decent size lance/blade coming up from behind and putting it right through his heart, rather than dashing in and out like a punk.

    All in all, amazing! Unforgettable TV. Can’t wait to read reactions.

  • HODOR!!!!! That said, “Fool’s blood, king’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye.”

  • It will be hard watching this episode again even though Robb/Cat scenes were phenomenal. Damnnn heartbreaker

  • Clob:
    Everyone that’s read the books that didn’t think the scene was good enough have themselves to blame.It’s a case of letting expectations build too much for three seasons.I just reread the chapter yet again two nights ago and it’s never given me the same level of emotion that I had after my very first read.Knowing what’s going to happen in itself reduces the horror and hate of it.The way they did the scene on the show was close enough that that shouldn’t even be mentioned as an issue for not liking it.I don’t know what people would have wanted to make it better that wouldn’t have resulted in changing the whole damn thing from the book entirely.Complaining about ridiculously small things is pretty silly as well.

    The chapter in the book was no better or worse than the scene in the show.The thing that made it so great (meaning: awful) upon first read was the deaths of Robb and Catelyn.That just happened.

    Hodor! Hodor hodor!!!
    Get with our norm’s for fracks sake.
    It’s not like this episode had any big suprises that made you forget “First and Hodor’ing”

    :P
    The cat is out

  • My wife the non-reader simply says “that sucked”! Well done. Well done. Not sure about a few things…Blackfish, Talisa, Last Hearth. Lots of questions.

  • Great episode. I knew it was coming and have read ASOS 3 times now, but it was still gut wrenching to watch.

  • how am I supposed to focus after watching that? I knew it was coming, and I didn’t even really like Robb’s storyline this season, but still……..augh

  • That was an amazing episode of Game of Thrones. It was really well done. As much as I might get a little aggitated by some of Catelyns fans, I think the scene with her and Robb was a really nice touch as well. Just overall a really, really strong episode. I don’t think they could have done the Red Wedding any better.

  • speechless like every time I have read the Red Wedding in the ASoS. Gut wrenching! rewatching now, craziness. so well done.

  • I am going to be so endlessly happy if they cut Coldhands out of the show. His “fans,” the people who feel the need to mention him every single episode, are the most annoying GoT fans out there. Seriously. He is a flat, minor character, even in the books.

  • Amazing. Just amazing. Funny how they got rid of the Blackfish (Igot to take a piss, didnt know that would save your life)

  • I think the show eclipsed the book with the Red Wedding. Having Talisa tell Robb she wanted to name their son Eddard was as gut-wrenching as anything this show has displayed.

    Now, it’s time for Un-Cat and bloody vengeance!

  • My whole family just sat in the dark while the credits were rolling. I didn’t want to say anything because I was to busy trying to hold back my sobbing. You could hear my mother and GF sniffling…

    We just sat there through the whole credit sequence… Until after the preview for the next episode in silence, each of us trying not to cry out loud and not looking at one another. It was very awkward and my GF was the first one to speak saying “I feel sick”, we all just said “yeah”, then had some awkward forced laughter…

    I still feel sick, seeing a whole family get murdered like that… Even though I knew it was coming…..

  • Note to Self: Never let Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey plan my wedding. Don’t invite Roose Bolton either.

    Seriously, a standing ovation to David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, Richard Madden, Michelle Fairley, Oona Chaplin, Michael McElhatton, David Bradley and ALL of the other actors and crew members who worked on that scene. There are far too many to list them all, but they deserve to be commended, each and every one. Once of the most anticipated and viscerally devastating events in the entire series, and they pulled it off. Spectacularly.

  • Now is confirmed that Brynden is gay? Haha! Epic scene when the Freys girls look to him and he feels unconfortable.

    BTW, after D&D sparing him tonight I guess Blackfish has still something to do in the last 2 books. I can’t say the same to Talisa..

  • My wife came downstairs and asked why I was standing by the television. My heart was going to explode with adrenaline. I had to stand and I had to get close. Some quotes were missing. Robb calling out to Grey Wind, but he abandoned the dire wolf for Talisa anyway, and “No, not my hair, Ned loves my hair” but that was awesome. From the nameless Merman who showed up – originally I thought it was the Smalljon till I saw the pin, to Roslin looking really upset, to the Blackfish slipping out at the right time.

    Sandor and Arya need a lot of attention next season. Please, please, please. Arya was neglected in Season 2 and half of this one and Sandor was merely a prop in Season 1. Two of my 3 favorites.

  • Agree with sick to stomach comments. I saw Ned stark beheaded before I read about it, but I almost threw my iPad through the window when I read about Robb stark. GRRM has a way of doing an about-face that leaves you outraged and sick to your stomach. Hard to compare the feeling when you know it’s coming ( like Winter ). All in all, very good episode….

  • HODOR. I thought Arya was dead for to long when reading, broke my heart. The RW was brutal, stabbing the pregnant lady’s baby!? That’s rough. At least non readers get the Joff goin down next week, that was only like 2/3 chapters after the RW I think? He has to go.

  • Absolutely incredible. I don’t think I’ve every reacted so strongly to a television sequence. The Rains of Castamere playing, Michelle Fairley, Robb holding his dead wife, Arya being so close, right to the lack of music in the credits. I was shaking and certainly needed some tissues after that episode. I believe this is one of the best death scenes in television history. Bravo

  • It’s probably silly, but for me Roose should had stabbed Robb from the back like in the books. In the series I felt like they are gona hug or something like that! But still, awesome! RW!!!!!

  • The most painful part was Talisa saying she’d name the boy Eddard, even when I know what’s going to happen. This was absolutely one of the best additions to the show and completely floored me

  • It was painful to watch Arya Stark trying to get to her family without realizing what is taking place. :(

  • Brutal episode!
    The team truly managed to capture the feeling of the books. Kudos.

    I will not lie though, I missed a number of elements from the books like the Umbers fighting back, GreyWind trying to tell Robb not to go inside and the tents being lit ablaze for Arya to witness. However, I think they pulled off everything they could and I understand the decisions made completely.

    Killing Ned a second time was an added factor of brutality I did not expect!

    Loved the Arya and Hound scenes,..

    Okay… let me say it now….
    If Grey Worm was that BAD ASS in the fight tonight I expect big things from the Red
    Viper!

    Sorry Jorah and Daario, but that skinny eunuch out-bad-assed both of you!

    The only it of the scene I truly disliked was Ygritte protecting Jon.
    That felt all kinds of wrong to me despite them setting it up to go down like that earlier in the season. I understand where they are going, but I do not think it will pay off… It irked me.

    Small picked nit aside…
    Brutal episode that was very effective, but I cannot say it was on of my favorites.
    The pacing felt off to me at times and some of the scenes while very effective felt just a bit off to me….

  • It was painful to watch Arya Stark trying to get to her family without realizing what is taking place.

  • Clob:
    …. HODOR!(warged)*snore*

    Good edit :)

    Looks like my prediction about a king dying next week comes true also.
    The Asha/Yara trailer clips means Balons Funeral I guess…

  • I agree with Ryan McGee when he said this episode should have had the Blackwater treatment of focusing on one area. I mean, I dug the other scenes, but it could have been 2987297297x more epic, I think.

    That being said? I just watched AMAZING TV and I am being a selfish jerk in criticizing it. It hurt me in all the hurting places the same as the book did. The non-Red Wedding scenes were really good, and man… just… STILL.

    Team Robb forever. <3

  • WHAT A FANTASTIC FUCKING EPISODE!!!!

    Even though the details of the Red Wedding were less than the books, it had so much more heart… I felt it more than in when i read it… ugh!

    The silence at the end!!! that was the most striking….

    Other than that my only thing was i was hoping for a bigger reaction from Jon when he saw Summer and Shaggydog attack the wilding…

    The 3 musketeers!! so awesome i wish their fight scene was longer….

    Such a great episode overall… Cheers to David and Dan!!!

  • The Hodor scene was the best comic scene in GOT. I really laugh so hard at that. Kristian Nairn FTW!

  • I really can’t complain about anything. As soon as Rains started playing it was instant goosebumps and I couldn’t do anything but tighten up and watch. More than any of the other seasons, I’m really looking forward to episode 10 and what the aftermath will be. Terrific performances all around, well done to everyone involved.

  • Does anyone think we’ll be seeing Lady Stoneheart in the finale? I really hope so. The idea of the season ending with that scene gives me chills.

  • The part with Grey Wind almost made me cry, and I didn’t expect to because I’m not a Robb fan. But the animals get me every time I guess.

    I have no idea what happened during any of the Dany scenes because I was madly following twitter every time there had been a scene at the Twins.

    ETA: The lack of music during the credits was the icing on the cake.

  • Missed Alan Taylor’s direction. IMHO Ned’s death was done better & more emotional

    This one should have be, but it wasn’t as good

  • personally, I think that the acting was very, very awesome. I’m an avid fan of the books, and the anticipation of this episode has been three years in coming. Overall, I wish they had stayed with some of the actual dialogue used in the books (especially Catelyn losing it at the end), but they really did give me the “horror” I felt when they killed the Queen and the baby so viciously. Yes, I pictured a different setting (I thought they were outside), yes I wanted to see some of the Northlords and Grey Wind fight back, however it was executed in a way that made it sad and completely tragic

  • Much, much tougher to watch that it was to read. Knowing what was going to happen I think made it worse. I was never a Robb Stark fan in the book or on the show but tough to see him go either way. Killing his wife was probably the only way to get the character an ending since the Lannister connection was never introduced in the TV adaptation.

    The older characters in the series didn’t get old by being nice to each other. They are the real badasses – Walter, Tywin, Queen of Thorns, etc.

  • Michel:
    It’s probably silly, but for me Roose should had stabbed Robb from the back like in the books. In the series I felt like they are gona hug or something like that! But still, awesome! RW!!!!!

    Except for that part where he didn’t do that in the book.

  • As an Unsullied, I’ve read some complaints over in the Open Chat about how the RW went down, I guess Bolton wasn’t fully armored, there weren’t more men putting up a fight, there wasn’t epic drumbeats or some such, it’s supposed to be more chaotic, Cat didn’t speak outloud about Ned loving her hair to whomever was interested nearby (this one was a deal breaker, I guess)….. but I liked the way they did it, it was mostly from Cat’s POV, the whole thing snuck up on them… the lone man slowly going to the doors, the RoC started playing, it was creepy! And then the horrible beginning of repeated stabbings to kill an unborn child and his/her mother. But I felt the worst for Grey Wind, dying alone in his stable, but I am a dog owner, so…

  • Loved the Arya/Hound scenes. Her smacking the old guy with a stick after being told she’s too kind was great. It’s fantastic watching a little girl stand up in the face of all these dangerous people; Tywin, Jaqen, Melisandre, Sandor… pretty much everyone. She may have fear but it doesn’t stop her. She’s not cowing from anyone.
    I think it was a wise choice to make it clear that she wasn’t killed by the Hound. That may have been a bit too much to handle for the week by the unsullied. Nonreaders may very well think at this moment that the Hound was in on the whole thing and he essentially betrayed her. Telling her she’s too late and knocking her out doesn’t look good. Yes, I was a reader that searched ahead to make sure that Arya wasn’t killed.

  • Not said here but should not be forgotten between all the Red Wedding comments: Gilly said Sam is a wizard! A really wonderful moment!

  • Michelle Fairley’s performance was so good that I felt physically ill for Catelyn’s pain. I had thought awhile ago they would kill Talisa off then I thought with her being pregnant they would not. Then when Blackfish left the room and she stayed I knew she would die but sitting in her chair, getting stabbed in her pregnant belly repeatedly from behind…. HORRIFYING. Who would of thought D&D would find a way to make the RW even more terrible?!

  • Glad a couple people are giving Grey Worm his due. I did picture him much bulkier, but when he was fighting he looked so elegant and moved so well. I wonder if the actor has experience with fencing or dance? It looked like it.

  • I Never Read The Books.. But Todays Episode Broke My Heart I Literally Could Not Take My Eyes Off The Screen… I Hope The Starks Get Their Revenge And That Danaris Comes And KicKs Some Ass
    RIP CAT AND ROB

  • I got most of what I wanted.

    Missed: the rest of the Northmen. Really wish they’d spent some of the time used for Theon to have Dacey & Maege Mormont and some Umbers and Manderlys. My #1 issue by far.
    the arrival at the Twins and Grey Wind’s freakout
    Walder’s final speech to Robb

    So those are my misgivings. I loved what they did give us. Goodbye Oona, you fox. Fuck the Freys, fuck the Boltons!

  • Seeing Talisa die like that made her character worth it….that was the initial moment of sheer barbarism I was hoping for…such a symbolic horrific way to kill her…great ep

  • Gee, I can’t wait to take my finals for the next three days with this episode hanging over my head.

    It was a fantastic episode. My stomach was turning from the moment it began. So many emotions. It was perfect, exactly how I remember it from the book. However, the best part is seeing all of the Unsullied reactions. Ready to watch the encore pres!

  • I am deliberately reading tweets and EW interviews and this recap even though I’ve yet to see the episode because that way some pain will be shielded. I can never, ever reread that scene in the book and I’ve been dreading rather than looking forward to it being enacted on TV.

    Blackfish not dead then? That’s something.

  • Ryan E,

    since you ask, it depends on what way they are going to go. in the books the Blackfish never goes to the wedding and is at Riverrun holding it still in the name of Robb. Edmure becomes a hostage after the Red Wedding. that being said I don’t know how the show is gonna do it.

  • I knew GOING IN if I felt SICK coming out, then this episode would be a success. And while I may have a complaint or two, I still had to go outside and get some air afterwards. Poor Talisa… Damn. SUCCESS.

  • LOVED

    * Red Wedding – Everything was perfect. It went from a happy ceremony to very Eerie and horrifying as soon as they started playing Rains of Castemere. And the look on Cat’s face when she saw the door shutting and the song playing was great. She portrayed so much emotion during this whole sequence, especially when she begged for Robb to leave. Loved the little tid bit about Talisa naming the child Eddard.
    *Arya – Especially the scene when she tried to run into the castle and then saw Grey Wind die. An emotional scene
    *Bran – The warging into Hodor and the seperation with Bran and Rickon was really good.

    LIKED
    * Dany and Yunkai – Seeing Grey Worm, Jorah, and Daario in action was pretty cool. Then Daario bringing the great news back to Dany was pretty sweet
    *Jon Snow – I liked the whole revelation of him still being a crow then him killing Orell and then the bird attacking him.

    Overall I would say this is in the top 3 of the season. It was an amazing episode!

  • did anyone else hate when Jon left and the look on Ygritte’s face *gasp* even though I knew it was coming. I just love them and I just hated that moment. Makes me wonder how their interactions will be next week. I have a feeling that I’m not gonna like it.

  • Serious question:

    Who wins in a shield and spear fight: Grey Worm or Achilles?

    Someone needs to ask Benioff…

  • Clob:
    Loved the Arya/Hound scenes.Her smacking the old guy with a stick after being told she’s too kind was great.It’s fantastic watching a little girl stand up in the face of all these dangerous people; Tywin, Jaqen, Melisandre, Sandor… pretty much everyone.She may have fear but it doesn’t stop her.She’s not cowing from anyone.
    I think it was a wise choice to make it clear that she wasn’t killed by the Hound.That may have been a bit too much to handle for the week by the unsullied.Nonreaders may very well think at this moment that the Hound was in on the whole thing and he essentially betrayed her.Telling her she’s too late and knocking her out doesn’t look good.Yes, I was a reader that searched ahead to make sure that Arya wasn’t killed.

    Agreed. Before the episode aired I wanted them to do it but ended up glad they didn’t.

  • A woman knew it would be an intense episode, but it still made hearts palpitate and stomachs churn in this house. Great fight scene with Daario, Ser Jorah, and Grey Worm swinging that spear, and the wildlings scenes were so well done. Watched it twice but dam that was brutal! Boltons and Freys need to get their comeuppance in a BIG WAY.

  • From Mysha preview:

    An epic scene where Roose sees the chaos at the Twins camp. Jaime in a room (Kingslanding?). Yara! Joffrey getting owned by Twyin. Tyrion in the garden of the Tyrells. Sam and Pyp (probably finding Jon). Ygritte and a bow. An epic scene of Dany army. Some ghost story in Nightfort. A lot of Sandor and Arya. Sansa. Gendry probably gettin spared by Stannis.

    What is must interesting to me is Jaime in a closed room, what probably means he rechead KL or he stopped at somewhere in his journey. Will he see the PW?

  • All of the interviews on EW are talking about how they are losing both Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley. Do we think that this is an elaborate ruse? Or are they doing something different with Cat’s storyline?

  • From the preview it looks like we will revisit The Twins and see the tents ablaze along with Arya’s reaction….should be great.

  • Even though I liked how they managed Grey Wind’s demise, I think he should have taken some Freys with him, like in the books. Going out with a bang.
    Anyway, not complaining. It was a terrific scene.

    *sobs*

  • My wife, a non book reader, is not typically effected by surprising plot twists and turns. With the RW scene, she was gasping and uttering primitive monosyllables. A definite pay off for me of withholding this for 2 1/2 years!

  • The energy between the books and the show is simply amazing. D&D have added so much to the visual presentation but still manage to respect the soaring vision of the master author. This is a great achievment, IMHO. We stood the whole show cursing and shouting at the screen. Very satisfied and tired now.

    My only (slight) request…..more direwolves! :-) …but I did get my fix!

    Wonder what the viewership stats are?

  • KG,

    Really? LOL! I think I have imagined the RW in the wrong away since I read the books! Thanks for the correction.

  • an issue I had was the way they are pushing the Daario/Dany relationship. I think it’s good to see it blossoming, however I feel like they are rushing the two together. I’m thinking they are going to skip Mereen altogether and have Yunkai be the city that Dany ends up ruling

  • LOL. Weeks ago, I scheduled a day off from work tomorrow because I knew I wouldn’t sleep tonight. So Happy I did that!

  • bearpitticketmaster,

    Ruse, for sure. I think they want it to be a surprise even bigger than Drogo last season. I imagine if we ever get Bran’s past visions of Ned, it will be similarly under wraps.

  • So the Blackfish had to take a leak….so do we have to wait until TWOW? Unsullied or Sullied…..

  • Curious.
    I’ve been reading interviews done that were posted immediately after the episode airing, such as those from EW. They seem to be implying that Michelle is done on the show, which would be assumed by those that don’t know about Lady Stoneheart. Is there a chance they will cut all of Stoneheart from the show? Might they use a different actress to play it since it’s a small part and undead makeup can hide different appearance?

  • i wonder if they set up the opening credits before the edits are in. Because Dragonstone was in this ep but not the last.

  • That was really well done! I was on the edge o my seat for the whole episode and I knew what was coming.

    I loved that they showed Arya seeing Grey Wind’s death – not quite like in the books, but just as horrifying as it needed to be.

    One thing I didn’t quite like: Robb taking a dozen arrows and still being able to stand up and speak. It felt fake. Oh, well. Loads of movies and TV shows have those fake deaths where people get stabbed or shot and are still able to say last words, forgive relatives and tell secrets (as opposed to scream in pain).

    Also the fight between Jon and the Wildlings felt too long for me. I’d imagined something more sudden, a quick and brutal escape scene.

    And, unlike WiC, I quite liked the eagle attack.

    I also agree that the tension over Bran warging into Hodor and then Summer was fantastically built!

    And can I say I loved the Rickon and Bran parting? A nice addition by the writers.

    Overall, a 9/10 episode, I would say. This one, along with Kissed by Fired, and followed by Now His Watch is Ended, make the top 3 of the season IMO.

  • Excellent episode. Fairley and Madden nailed their performances as did Art Parkinson. (That little boy always breaks my heart). The RW was horrid and heart-breaking. There was a lot riding on this episode and I think that it was pretty close to flawless. Seeing Grey Wind’s death was torture.

  • Clob:
    Curious.
    I’ve been reading interviews done that were posted immediately after the episode airing, such as those from EW.They seem to be implying that Michelle is done on the show, which would be assumed by those that don’t know about Lady Stoneheart.Is there a chance they will cut all of Stoneheart from the show?Might they use a different actress to play it since it’s a small part and undead makeup can hide different appearance?

    Nah…the EW interview doesn’t imply that..only that she was very upset and obviously had a very hard week…Stoneheart will come at the end of the next season and will definitely be Michelle..

  • Alexis,

    I think so. I think that will be the very last scene of the season. Her reveal. That would be in impactful moment to end on.

  • That…was rough. Even knowing what was coming, as soon as Rains started playing I couldn’t sit still and was overly anxious. The whole episode was extremely well done, and I cannot thank the Old Gods enough that we are so lucky to have such a quality series that does right by the books.

  • What happennes to Edmure and Roslyn. AND someone wrote “poor Jorah” if they killed him I’m not watching this show anymore.

  • LONG LIVE THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!!LONG LIVE THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!!! …”knows no king except the king in the north whose name is STARK”

  • As much as this season is about marriage and The Rains of Castamere centers on the second of three weddings, the episode is more about the breaking of oaths than the keeping of them. The sundering of possibilities than the forming of them. This is a dark dark segment, probably the darkest yet. The Jon/Bran and Robb/Cat segments were largely successful, particularly the Red Wedding, but Dany’s was just lame. Still, that doesn’t matter so much, because it’s the wedding we came for. As always, my detailed thoughts on the episode can be found on my blog.

  • It was painful to watch Arya Stark trying to reunite with her family without realizing the massacre that was taking place. But this episode will be the most memorable episode of the entire series.

  • John Snow’s Bastard,

    yep, and pretty much the only way I see it. I think they will kind of switch everything that happened at Mereen to Yunkai so that way they can focus on things with Dany’s “rule”

    Plus Barristan and Jorah in the show are kinda close with each other, so that leads me to believe that Jorah is not going to be exiled

  • I liked the opening scene with the flayed men and twins figurines lined up behind the direwolves on the map as if in stab-in-the-back mode. Nice little touch of foreshadowing.

  • May I just say how much I prefer this recap to that of Westeros? Much less snobbery and overanalyzation.

  • Since we’re getting another scene at the Twins, does this mean we will see an interaction between Lord Trollton and Lord Frey?

  • Talisa death was brutal! Nicelly done. Michelle Farlay was amazing. But I felt Robb “death” (before Roose kills him) was fake, he took one million of arrows and could still rise and talk?

  • I have yet to watch this episode yet so I can’t comment on it yet but I know that Coldhands does not show up so I really hope they are just delaying his introduction until next season and not writing him out. I am hoping that next season Bran and the Reeds get attacked by wights beyond the Wall and are saved by Coldhands. He doesn’t have to ride an elk just give him a horse. Some people may say Coldhands might not be very important to the overall story but who cares, he is such a cool mysterious character and it would be so awesome to see him on the show. I never really complain them changing things or editing out characters but if they remove Coldhands from the show I’m going to be pissed. Most viewers love the supernatural elements of the story and it would be huge mistake by D&D to edit out such an awesome character from the show.

  • Even after an amazingly written and acted episode like this, people still complain. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, you can never please people.

  • WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    The promo of Mysha shows a scene where we can see the chaos at the Twins camp and someone bald (Roose) looking it from the walls of the castle. So I guess probably yes.

  • As someone who watches the show mostly for the Starks it will be tough to continue watching.Dany doesn’t interest me too much and Stannis isn’t on the show enough. I guess Tyrion will keep me around for awhile but what a sad day for house Stark. Who knows if Winterfell will recover.

  • Has there even been any Manderly’s on the show yet?
    Will it come up later that Wendel was at the red wedding?
    I’m looking forward to the bastard’s wedding in perhaps season 5….with pies….

  • One more Talisa rant for old times sake. In the books Robb marries Jeyne after deflowering her to preserve her honor. He did the honorable thing instead of the smart thing just like his father. As a result he died. Just like his father. Having Robb marry for love completely took away that parallel. Don’t get me wrong the RW was still plenty emotional and very well done. I just miss that painful like father like son moment.

    BTW, none of this is held against Oona Chaplin. She was great tonight and I did feel horrible seeing her stabbed in the womb like that.

  • Remember reading the books… after Eddards death there was the hope “seven hells it’ll get better soon’. After reading that chapter even beeing spoiled before it was complete devastation,

    In regards to the show: It seems it worked. Strange to feel happy and sad seeing so many viewers and fans in pain right now, but that’s Game of Thrones/ASOIAF.

  • I’ll never forget reading that chapter for the first time. This was a difficult episode to sit through as those emotions from a few years ago were stirred up again. I was concerned about the excessive gore taking away from the emotions of the moment but Fairley and Madden were so good that I don’t think that could have happened. I don’t think I will ever forget Cat’s look of horror. I’m glad we have episode 10 for some closure to the season.

  • RhymesWithWeak,

    The actor that plays Wendel was in the scene, although I don’t remember if he was killed or not. I guess he could have been introduced at Riverrun and had 5 or 6 lines until the RW.

  • I was mad about Coldhands too!!! As soon as Sam started talking about the black door I was just like “Wait, are they not doing cold hands? Seriously????” Because coldhands is really just the absolute coolest in my book. Lots of speculation. I know they’ve been trying to keep from introducing too many characters, but come on. Come on! The red wedding DESTROYED ME. Of course I knew about it, and I’m pretty happy with how they handled it. Talisa was just… Ugh. I was wondering how they were going to handle that, since in the books Robb’s wife isn’t at the wedding. But… They handled it. In the worst way possible…. And right as I was starting to get used to her…. Bye bye Richard and Oona. You’ll be missed unu

  • WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    One more Talisa rant for old times sake.In the books Robb marries Jeyne after deflowering her to preserve her honor.He did the honorable thing instead of the smart thing just like his father.As a result he died.Just like his father.Having Robb marry for love completely took away that parallel.Don’t get me wrong the RW was still plenty emotional and very well done.I just miss that painful like father like son moment.

    BTW, none of this is held against Oona Chaplin.She was great tonight and I did feel horrible seeing her stabbed in the womb like that.

    I definitely agree on this…it’s my whole problem with Talisa…but her death was super tough to take and was a brilliant way to just make us even sadder.

  • Being a book reader did not soften the blow..did they have to kill eddard stark twice.my wife and 4daughters and 3 sons were sobbing well done D&D….hats off

  • I have been waiting for this episode, and dreading it at the same time. I was bawling as soon as the feast started because I have read all the books and knew the outcome. I cried all the way to the end and for a good while later..
    I think they couldn’t have done a better job and Catelyn what a truly amazing performance.

  • dido,

    Yeah according to TV Guide he is… getting back to KL somehow next episode? I was really hoping that wasn’t the case but the preview seems to be confirming it.

    It’s immensely odd, because if he gets back to KL before, uh, certain stuff happens, then the timing of this show is going to get very weird indeed. Particularly Cersei and Jaime’s reunion. Either that’s going to have to wait or that scene is going to have to, uh, play out a lot differently.

    Maybe he’s just running into Tywin at an outlying camp or something?

  • iam76,

    They could always handwave that if they have to later on. Just because we didn’t see Robb write a letter, after all, doesn’t mean that he didn’t write one. Just like the bread and salt thing just sort of appeared when we needed it to — no explanation necessary, really.

  • Michel,

    Thanks, I read with more focus on the little things than I watch the show for the little things.

    Along with the Umbers I believe the Manderlys are still loyal to the Starks….the former being good for Rickon….although two books later we have no idea how that plays out either!

  • Clob,

    Well, since season 4 is the second half of book 3, it would make sense that she won’t re-appear anytime soon. Maybe we’d get a glimpse in ssn 4 finale? A girl can hope.

  • Now that Talisa died at the RW, the Jeyne/Talisa switcheroo is coming together for me. Someone had once said that Maegyr was the surname of a prince of Volantis, or some major player in that city. Volantene royalty might have just been killed. Could there be a new non-book story arc involving her family looking for vengeance, with new characters? If she were Jeyne, there wouldn’t be that kind of flexibility to flesh out a later storyline, if that’s where they want to take the show. Thoughts?

  • Wow. Seeing the RW in the flesh still left me gut wrenched. But as I’m 3/4 through “Dance with Dragons”, there are still some oh shit moments. HBO has done an excellent job bringing this to life. And while we may all curse GRRM, his story is real. Not some fantasy where the good guys always win and no one important dies. This is great.

  • Incredible episode, no doubt! I’m so happy that they included the chain mail.

    I only have one quibble: Orell warging the bird was a little over the top. Felt like a cheesy warging battle at that point. Of course, the lack of Northern bannermen etc was annoying, but not specific to this episode.

    (Too bad that the majority of those who watch Game of Thrones haven’t watched the episode yet. People are getting angry about spoilers in Twitter right about now.)

  • Also, if I remember correctly, there was a shot of Talisa and lame lothar laughing and enjoying the wedding. And HE was the one who wound up stabbing her. Chilling.

  • I’m very curious about Last Heart. Are Rickon and Osha really going there? If not, what will made them go to Skagos instead of Last Heart? Will their journey be off screen or on screen?

  • Shan,

    I only wish it is a sence about Tywin,Tynion and a sword, then it cut into Jaime’s sence with Brienne.

  • Clob,

    Uhm, the thing that made it great was Cat’s tragedy. She lost everything, including her sanity at the end. I still feel emotional about it upon rereads, and I think they really botched it by leaving that out/toning it down. Not sure why they left out her tearing up her own face, but added in a very gruesome Talisa death.

    If you think the tragedy of the RW is a shock value thing, then you are missing a lot about the scene.

  • ok it was VERY good, but there’s no way it could match the books. Any book adaptation, this, Lord of the Rings, no matter how good, just doens’t compare to the books. I still would have liked them to MENTION the guest right, they had perfect opportunity when they passed out the food. Also I guess they didn’t want to spoil who had Theon by giving Cat his finger skin but would have been nice.

    on a separate note, kinda pissed that Jon didn’t take an arrow to the leg while fleeing. Are the wildings going to trust Ygritte now?

  • Watching the replay and roose bolton laughing at cat saying ned didn’t want to break anyone’s jaw at their wedding was extra disturbing.

  • Amazing episode! The ONLY thing I didn’t absolutely love was the Rickon scene. I really want to like Rickon, but the actor who is portraying him just seems… out of place next to these other brilliant actors. I mean, he IS very young, I understand that. I just naturally cringed a little with his facial expressions, pretending to be sad and concerned. I couldn’t help it! Maybe it’s just me.

    Anyways, I wont go on about what I loved in this episode because this post would turn into a three page essay! Just fantastic, 2nd best episode next to s02e09.

  • Bolton betrayed the Starks for money? Didn’t realize he was that kind of man…I understood him letting Jaime go as he wouldn’t want Tywin personally on his bad side.

    I’m glad I read spolers about the wedding…I was mentally preparing myself for this night for weeks and it was really emotional. This is a great show with great actors.

  • Can we please get a gif of the look Roose gives Cat when she rolls up his sleeve revealing the chainmail?

    Priceless. Simply histerical.

    And the episode met all my expectations. Being a book reader, not knowing Talisa’s fate, I gasped out loud when she was stabbed. Can’t wait for Grey Robb.

  • Rahbur,

    Yes, been saying it since day 1. We need some sort of relief after the RW. We need vengance. UnCat is coming. Also Mysha= other= Dany + Catelyn

  • Michel:

    I’m very curious about Last Heart. Are Rickon and Osha really going there? If not, what will made them go to Skagos instead of Last Heart? Will their journey be off screen or on screen?


    My guess is we’ll see them for a few episodes next season…They’ll go to White Harbor and for some reason have to leave…them Davos gets sent after them in the next season/book5….Not sure why they’d leave…Maybe Osha only gets close to White Harbor and then hightails it out of there…that way Davos can still be told about White Harbor over some Frey pie.

  • Fantastic adaptation of the RW. It more than lived up to my expectations. I missed Greatjon., but the Talisa uterus stabbing more than made up for it. Season 3 has been superb.

  • D&D said this was the season and they meant this was the episode. So well done. Multi-time book reader and loving what they did. My anxiety was so high and then I felt so cold. There was even a thunder storm for the duration of the episode.

  • Jared:
    Note to Self: Never let Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey plan my wedding. Don’t invite Roose Bolton either.

    Seriously, a standing ovation to David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, Richard Madden, Michelle Fairley, Oona Chaplin, Michael McElhatton, David Bradley and ALL of the other actors and crew members who worked on that scene. There are far too many to list them all, but they deserve to be commended, each and every one. Once of the most anticipated and viscerally devastating events in the entire series, and they pulled it off. Spectacularly.

    This. An amazing episode. Grinding my teeth the whole time, and watching it with my niece who has become a rabid fan of the show, and is just starting the books. She watched open-mouthed and I could hear her breathing during the end credits. She said nothing until after the preview, and all she could say was, “Whoa.”

    I think that was her “Luke, I am your father” moment. Then she went nuts and talked about what an amazing TV moment we had just seen.

    Well done, D&D. Well done, indeed.

  • I hope they save cat’s resurrection for next season. Give this time to sink in. Lots going on next episode anyway. The preview makes it seem like Jamie gets back to King’s landing, but wouldn’t that ruin later events? also Coldhands, this season or next?

  • iam76:
    Robb forgot to make jon snow the heir? Isn’t that kinda important.

    The tale is clearly going to diverge in later seasons. We all have been saying so, it was just a matter of degree. Looks like it’s a big departure in the offing.

    The real issue is that aspect of the story was never going to work with Talisa being pregnant.

    I really missed the punk version of Bear and the Maiden Fair during the credits — didn’t you all? (D&D paid attention to the fan displeasure on that one. Silence was the best choice.)

    I will say this: the idea for Bolton to take Talisa captive and marry her off to Ramsay was one of the better fan speculation ideas that emerged on these comment boards. It was such a good idea, I was rather surprised when it did not happen.

  • Wow… I thought it was as good as it was in the book. I knew it was coming, and still they had my jaw on the floor and my heart pounding. Amazing episode.

  • There’s nothing in the preview that shows Jaime in KL. He’s in a room and it’s right after a shot of Tywin, but that could be any room Jaime is in.

  • kingjon:
    PW will be next week right? LOL.

    OMG, I hate you and hope Walder Frey hosts your wedding next! :P

    PW=Episode 4 of season 4. Calling it now.

  • Exceptional!! Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley were superb! It was so emotionally heart wrenching! Sobbed like a damn baby!

  • Steel_Wind: The tale is clearly going to diverge in later seasons. We all have been saying so, it was just a matter of degree. Looks like it’s a big departure in the offing.

    The real issue is that aspect of the story was never going to work with Talisa being pregnant.

    I really missed the punk version of Bear and the Maiden Fair during the credits — didn’t you all? (D&D paid attention to the fan displeasure on that one. Silence was the best choice.)

    1: Two completely different scenes. The Bear and the Maiden Fair fit the tone of the scene with Jaime.

    2: Not a chance that any perceived backlash from a fraction of the fanbase had any influence on a scene that was shot and edited months ago.

  • Nick Manfredi:
    Can we please get a gif of the look Roose gives Cat when she rolls up his sleeve revealing the chainmail?

    Priceless. Simply histerical.

    I think he totally looked like Tywin that moment!

  • on a separate note, kinda pissed that Jon didn’t take an arrow to the leg while fleeing.Are the wildings going to trust Ygritte now?

    Bigger question: are they going to kill Ygritte now? I was very surprised at how that went down. Especially given Kit’s broken leg (and I thought his relatively lame sword fight highlighted that deficiency) the idea of shooting him in the leg which was injured seemed a natural choice.

  • I’m disappointed.

    Talysa (whatever? Jeyne) getting stabbed in her pregnant stomach was shocking and truly disturbing. +1 for that.

    But Catelyn going “crazy” was weird and laughable. It would have been better if:
    – She continued screaming and gets killed like that.
    – She does one scream and stands still like in the episode, but she doesn’t close her mouth so soon. It looked like the scream was fake and edited in.

    ALSO they should have done a closer shot, looking completely distant and mad. The killer grabs her hair and she whispers “not my hair..Ned loves my hair” or something then gets killed.

    Idk just feel disappointed. Could’ve been a lot better.

  • (Hand-to-mouth) “OH MY GOD!”
    — My Unsullied wife

    (and probably every other on the planet when Talisa got stabbed)

  • WinterRose: One thing I didn’t quite like: Robb taking a dozen arrows and still being able to stand up and speak. It felt fake. Oh, well. Loads of movies and TV shows have those fake deaths where people get stabbed or shot and are still able to say last words, forgive relatives and tell secrets (as opposed to scream in pain).
    Also the fight between Jon and the Wildlings felt too long for me. I’d imagined something more sudden, a quick and brutal escape scene.
    And, unlike WiC, I quite liked the eagle attack.

    I agree with you on the eagle attack, it didn’t seem cheesy to me. Re: Robb’s scene, well at least they didn’t have Talisa utter some last words while he was holding her head up. I half-expected her to give a last gasp or somthing. Instead, it seemed all the more sad because she was well and truly gone. Poor Robb.

  • Clob:

    Everyone that’s read the books that didn’t think the scene was good enough have themselves to blame.

    I have loved every single episode of this show (even the ones in the middle that some have deemed “boring”), but the editing and pacing for this one was just …. off. There was too much of a pause with Bolton killing Robb, and then Catelyn stands there for wayyyy too long before her throat was sliced open. Just little things like that is all.

    Talisa’s death was cruel and hit me in the gut. Well done. Robb didn’t seem to react much, though. Again, was it the pacing? I expected it to be more epic.

    It was good but didn’t live up to my mind’s hype like so many other scenes have. Doesn’t mean I hate the show or hated the episode. Differing opinions are allowed!

  • Overall, I really thought it was done well. But two things I wish they hadn’t left out:

    1. Catelyn kills Jinglebell.
    2. The Freys sew Grey Wind’s head onto Robb’s chest.

    I can obviously see why they did leave out those two “events”, but it would’ve made it that much more hardcore. I suppose people wouldn’t have been able to handle that, though.

    Also, I wish they’d made the Bran-Hodor scene a little crazier. In the books, Hodor is terrified. But, they just made him go to sleep, so you don’t really get a sense of how much of a violation warging is.

    But, again — I thought it was really well done overall. It’s such an iconic scene. I’m sure they were under a ton of pressure to do it right. And they did. Props to D&D.

  • I’ve read the comments and I have not read the ASOS but I have to say that the writers failed. The reason they failed is they lost a huge number of supporters and fans for the show because there is no one left to have revenge for the Stark Family. Myself, I find myself disinterested and probably won’t watch anymore episodes. That is the feeling for much of the population I watch with. Sucks but its in the hands of writers. Too bad!
    Clob,

  • I can maybe deal with Jaime arriving in KL early. If and only if they find a way to get him out of town for PW.

    It’s funny that everyone hated Talisa until tonight. Now people seem to want her back.

    Doesn’t it feel good to talk about the red wedding with no spoiler tags?

    There is already some hilarious jokes and over the top fan reactions on the RobbStarkalypse tumblr.

  • Not a chance that any perceived backlash from a fraction of the fanbase had any influence on a scene that was shot and edited months ago.

    Re: Jaime’s hand: that’s your opinion. I didn’t share it then, and I am not much more of a fan of it now. It was just… camp.

    As for tonight’s episode, you misunderstand — I was referring to taking out the music at the end credits. That wasn’t part of any scene shot “months ago” and it certainly is possible they decided not to go there based on audience reaction. They have been assembling the final episode until a few weeks ago based on past post-production decisions. The music might have been ordered a while back , but it would be added in post — or deleted — within the past few weeks, either way.

  • I’m a Sullied. So (other than Talisa) I knew what was coming.

    But still.

    OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG.

    I mean, just, just, just….fuck.

    It’s about as awful as you could have imagined, as awful as I read it. Basically…I want to be sick.

    As for the non-Red Wedding stuff:

    –The goodbye between Bran and Rickon? Tears. Could they have done that better? Fantastic. You didn’t get this one in the books, and they worked it out well. And once again, we’re in the position where the characters are basically all going to be in the same place as they should be, which is great.

    –Lastly — if all this site can say as far as weaknesses of the episode is “Where is Coldhands?”…well, it’s a pretty damned good episode. Having it pouring rain outside right now, with lightning, kind of helps the mood too.

    –Best episode ever? Perhaps. Only Baelor and Blackwater perhaps match it.

    –also: OMFG. OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.

  • You also didn’t mention which was quite profound was the silence over the closing credits which was quite fitting. Walder Frey was sufficiently rude with his future king too when checking out the new queen in the north masking his treachery. Profound episode no doubt.

  • Jeff Melton:
    You also didn’t mention which was quite profound was the silence over the closing credits which was quite fitting. Walder Frey was sufficiently rude with his future king too when checking out the new queen in the north masking his treachery. Profound episode no doubt.

    Oh yeah, that was actually done really good. Which reminds me, removing the drums was a mistake, I think. At least during the actual fighting.

  • I almost forgot… More shameless self promotion —

    http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com

    It’s a blog exploring the possible connections between GoT and Norse mythology, if anyone is interested. I wrote a new post about Jaime, but I can’t link directly to it since the title is a (potential) spoiler. Speaking of which, the entire blog is full of spoilers. So, beware if you haven’t read the books.

  • As much as I would have liked Catelyn laughing at the end, it doesn’t matter because… they nailed it. Homerun through and through.

    We have still to see the bodies.

  • WinterRose:
    That was really well done! I was on the edge o my seat for the whole episode and I knew what was coming.

    I loved that they showed Arya seeing Grey Wind’s death – not quite like in the books, but just as horrifying as it needed to be.

    One thing I didn’t quite like: Robb taking a dozen arrows and still being able to stand up and speak. It felt fake. Oh, well. Loads of movies and TV shows have those fake deaths where people get stabbed or shot and are still able to say last words, forgive relatives and tell secrets (as opposed to scream in pain).

    Also the fight between Jon and the Wildlings felt too long for me. I’d imagined something more sudden, a quick and brutal escape scene.

    And, unlike WiC, I quite liked the eagle attack.

    I also agree that the tension over Bran warging into Hodor and then Summer was fantastically built!

    And can I say I loved the Rickon and Bran parting? A nice addition by the writers.

    Overall, a 9/10 episode, I would say. This one, along with Kissed by Fired, and followed by Now His Watch is Ended, make the top 3 of the season IMO.

    Ooooh, good point! About Robb’s bad reaction to the arrows. I just think the whole death scene would have been a lot better if it was more realistic. Robb standing up and getting all quiet and spacey — fake. Catelyn doing one edited in scream and then standing there like “lol hi” — fake. Meh. Only good part was Jeyne getting stabbed.

  • Steven T:
    I’ve read the comments and I have not read the ASOS but I have to say that the writers failed. The reason they failed is they lost a huge number of supporters and fans for the show because there is no one left to have revenge for the Stark Family. Myself, I find myself disinterested and probably won’t watch anymore episodes. That is the feeling for much of the population I watch with. Sucks but its in the hands of writers. Too bad!
    Clob,

    Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon Snow remain. So does the Blackfish, I might add.

    Ned was not the hero of the tale, and neither was Robb. That should have been fairly clear given the arc of the past two seasons and Robb’s terrible management of his love life, which doomed his reign.

    Psst: The hero of the tale is Jon Snow, btw, in case you haven’t noticed that yet.

    Robb won his crown on the battlefield and lost it in the bedroom. There is no place for such sentiment in the world in which they live. Marrying for love is something the Smallfolk can do — but not the Highborn.

    Karstark told it true when he told hie liege lord that he lost the war the day he married Talisa. It’s not like they didn’t outright tell the viewer exactly that.

  • I loved how the wedding rampage was done as if we were looking through Catelyn’s eyes. When she turned to see the Frey walking to the door and closing it shut… how the camera kept close to her side and it swung to the orchestra to hear Rains of Castamere.. watching the brutality through her POV. Beautifully done.

    She tore me up when she begged for Robb’s life.

    So many great things happened in this episode. Little Rickon tore me up too. He’s such a brave boy. I know Davos is going to find him later and care for him like his own son. I just know it and I can’t wait! I love Davos!

    I enjoyed the betrayal of Ygritte as well. Jon saved her life, but she isn’t going to see it that way.

    The Hound and Arya are FABULOUS together.

  • Best episode of the series. Michelle Fairley better at least get multiple nominations for tonight.

    I noticed though in the preview for next week that there’s a shot of Sam and Pyp together. This probably means that Sam isn’t going to meet up with Bran and co. which leads me to believe that the large shadow they’ve been teasing sneaking up on Bran is in fact Coldhands! Who else could it be, if not Sam?

  • Aaron: Which reminds me, removing the drums was a mistake, I think. At least during the actual fighting.

    I would have liked the drums in the end when Catelyn is just standing there. Like a giant heartbeat in the background that stops when her throat is cut and the silent credits begin.

    Varamyr Fourskins:
    Overall, I really thought it was done well. But two things I wish they hadn’t left out:

    1. Catelyn kills Jinglebell.
    2. The Freys sew Grey Wind’s head onto Robb’s chest.

    What makes you think they cut out the second point? The episode ended not even one minute after Robb’s death. When would they have the time to drag the direwolf in the room, remove heads and sew the parts together? If they show this image (and I also hope so) they will clearly do it next episode.

  • Steven T:
    they lost a huge number of supporters and fans for the show because there is no one left to have revenge for the Stark Family. Myself, I find myself disinterested and probably won’t watch anymore episodes.
    Clob,

    Honestly, you wont watch any more because one out of many paths set out was extinguished? You don’t deserve to watch the amazing-ness that is this show! It’s really your fault for placing all of your interests in one basket so to speak. The wonderful thing about this world and George Martin’s writing, is that NOBODY is safe!

  • Steven T:
    I’ve read the comments and I have not read the ASOS but I have to say that the writers failed. The reason they failed is they lost a huge number of supporters and fans for the show because there is no one left to have revenge for the Stark Family. Myself, I find myself disinterested and probably won’t watch anymore episodes. That is the feeling for much of the population I watch with. Sucks but its in the hands of writers. Too bad!
    Clob,

    If you haven’t read the books then all you’re doing is assuming things. Is it really your belief that the published two and half books remaining and more to come contain nothing? You don’t know what’s yet to come.

    How is it the show’s writers fault of what happens? They’re adapting the books and eliminating the results of this scene would completely change everything from here on.

    Any people willing to so quickly stop watching the show after having watched for 29 episodes I would say weren’t much for fans in the first place.

  • After reading twitter reactions from celebs not affiliated with the show as well as non book readers on twitter this episode appears to have done its job tremendously…cannot wait for the various podcasts this week

  • Julie Rohrer,

    Well, he also betrayed Robb because Robb was going to lose. The Casterly Rock plot was really the last good move he had left, and it wasn’t a great move — just better than the other options. Roose jumped ship because he believed Robb’s ship was about to go down. And he was probably right. And I think we’re all starting to get a pretty good idea of what happens to people who try to fight the Lannisters and lose.

  • Actually Varamyr Fourskins, I think the decision to use Walder Frey’s 15 year old wife as Cat’s hostage (and victim) was FAR more believable and effective. D&D improved the scene with that edit.

  • I’m with some of the “whiny” book readers who thought the Red Wedding should be more noise and turmoil and CHAOS. Robb and Cat’s deaths were such quiet, slow moving, developments. Even as the scene played out in near silence for the audience, which was appropriate and riveting, we should have SEEN all the fighting going on between the Tully/Stark people and the Frey/Bolton forces and SEEN the drums pounding. Instead it was almost like watching someone go down a shopping list “Okay, and now Bolton steps in and stabs Robb. Okay, and now Cat kills her hostage. Okay, and now one of the Freys comes and kills Cat.”
    It was a little awkward. Ultimately compelling, but awkward.
    It would have been nice to see Gray Wind go out in a blaze of glory, but considering the wolves are actually thousands of miles away from the actors, I guess that would have been cost prohibitive. That was a loss but understandable and forgivable.
    The taking of Yunkai was muy cool and I loved the bit when Grey Worm and Mormont announce that they’ve won and Dany asks about… DAARIO? The look on Mormont’s face was fantastic.

  • Any people willing to so quickly stop watching the show after having watched for 29 episodes I would say weren’t much for fans in the first place.

    There are more than a few book readers and die-hard fans who threw ASOS across the room when they got to the Red Wedding.

    Note to casual readers and fans: GRRM hated writing the Red Wedding scene and left it until the very last chapter he wrote when he finished ASOS. He says it was like killing his own kids. It bothered him.

    An Unsullied TV viewer has a right to be shocked, angry and to express it; ease off. He’ll come around.

  • Steel_Wind,

    The hero of this show is the idea that heroes and villains are lame. George Martin has said that the only battle between good and evil he cares about is the one that goes on inside an individual person’s heart, every single day. I’m with him on that. Good guys and bad guys are boring. People getting up every day and trying to figure out whether they’re going to get to be a good guy or need to be a bad guy on this particular day — that’s interesting.

  • I always try to watch the episode again right after the first viewing. But I don’t think I can do that tonight. Oh my poor Talisa! Why didn’t you stay home? I yelped when I saw her stabbed. Someday I’ll realize this is the best TV I’ve seen in years but right now I’m trying to recover.

  • This episode accomplished those disturbing chapters from A Storm of Swords.

    Michelle Fairley portrayed Catelyn brilliantly. I suppose we’ll find out Brynden
    and Edmure’s fate eventually. I have a feeling that the Blackfish’s role has
    suffered script reduction as was other Northerners, he hasn’t had much to
    say other than slap Edmure around. Wish that he had a further role at the
    Riverrun Keep.

    Actually seeing the onscreen wedding at the Twins proved as horrific as imagined
    from reading. Funny then, I didn’t deduce Bolton’s relationship with the Frey’s
    [ possibly he revealed this in later chapters ? ]. At any rate, Lannister offered
    Roose his best price.

    Bran and Rickon finally part ways, and Shaggy Dog and Greywind get an honorable
    mention. Ghost ‘s stealth pays off to help Jon. I wonder if Orell gets to warg again
    later ?

    The pacing went well for most, the timing was shorter than last week’s or previous,
    but enough to make all work effectively.

  • Steel_Wind: There are more than a few book readers and die-hard fans who threw ASOS across the room when they got to the Red Wedding.

    I did… and didn’t pick it up until two days later…

  • Steel_Wind: Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon Snow remain. So does the Blackfish, I might add.

    Ned was not the hero of the tale, and neither was Robb.That should have been fairly clear given the arc of the past two seasons and Robb’s terrible management of his love life, which doomed his reign.

    Psst: The hero of the tale is Jon Snow, btw, in case you haven’t noticed that yet.

    Robb won his crown on the battlefield and lost it in the bedroom. There is no place for such sentiment in the world in which they live. Marrying for love is something the Smallfolk can do — but not the Highborn.

    Karstark told it true when he told hie liege lord that he lost the war the day he married Talisa. It’s not like they didn’t outright tell the viewer exactly that.

    Exactly! Robb jeopardized not only his own house, he endangered all his bannermen who put their faith in him. There’s no excuse for the brutality of what happened and the breaking of guest right but Robb kind of had it coming. Sorry to burst bubbles Robb lovers!

  • Fantastic acting!

    I get the part about the editing & some of the shots. Shouldn’t there have been immediate Stark outrage when “Rains” was played? Where is Alan Taylor when you need him?

    Otherwise, visceral moments included. Well done!

  • Varamyr Fourskins,

    How can they leave out something before its natural time? :P

    I’m assuming you didn’t see the finale. If we don’t see it next week, cue the complaint. Otherwise, not sure how that made it into the shortlist for this week.

  • They dropped the ball by not having a punk rock version of ‘The Rains Of Castemere’ play over the credits.

    Amirite or Amirite?

    Kidding, kidding!

  • A Storm of S-Words,

    Talisa had one of the most brutal deaths yet. I found her reaction harder to take than nearly anything else we’ve seen from GoT, Theon physical therapy sessions included.

  • A Storm of S-Words,

    I usually do the same thing, but I was too emotionally stunted to re-watch this episode. When Talisa was stabbed my hands involuntarily went to my stomach without even realizing it. Even though I knew it was going to happen I didn’t think I was going to be so affected by it. I was in a bad mood the rest of the night.

  • pntrlqst,

    His reviews were never good, they just had comedic value.
    Where does he think he got all those subscribers in the first place, then he disrespects them like that. Good riddance really.

    Anyway, good episode, left me with the expected empty feeling afterwards. Grey Winds death was just brutal.

  • Steel_Wind,

    This is a natural reaction. Undoubtedly there will be a few people who like their stories to have the hero win and villain fall, where blacks and whites take priority over greys. Some of these folk may truly not return. And that’s fine. But most viewers will get over this sorrow by next week and tune in again.

    pntrlqst,

    Small blessings, at least, eh? :)

  • So many wonderful performances! But a couple stand out in my mind:
    Arya’s face as she spies some Stark men who are asked by a Frey if they are ready to return to Winterfell. She lights up and becomes the child she really is, just a beatific smile on her face. But as she sees the men butchered and then sees Grey Wind killed, her face reverts to its usual dark survival mode She’s fantastic!

    And poor Jorah! When he returns victorious from the battle, bringing the good news to his Khaleesi and expecting praise, he sees the woman he worships inquire worriedly about that girlie man. And the look on his face as he understands any hopes he had of winning Daenerys’ love and loyalty is wasted and futile. She is all about the New Guy.

    Two wonderful performances mostly without dialogue. All hail Nina Gold and her professional skills, and the skills of those she casts.

    The whole freaking hour was one beautiful scene after another. I couldn’t be more pleased or proud of D&D and the rest of the bunch. A fabulous episode! Thanks all!!!

  • I liked the episode as much as the book. Mainly, just for what they say about the nature of man, and society. How we cling to silly notions of justice, and right and wrong. Like if we follow the rules the universe will reward us. Also, that wicked people will “get theirs in the end”. I thought this was a good reminder that their fictional world and our real one are cruel ones where the wicked dictate, and we’re just ants underneath the boots of the Tywin Lannisters of the world.

  • Rose: Hahaha, I’ve been SO over Larry for SO long.

    Larry Williams has always had shonky analysis and bad attention to detail. His reviews were fun when he was enthusiastic about the show, but in Season 2 its clear his own made up expectations poisoned that enthusiasm.

  • Wow. Larry has gone full retard, as they say. Where does he think his viewers (and presumably, any money he makes from those views and the podcasts he gets invited to) come from? And that introduction about so few people asking about his well-being just screams drama queen.

    Those 10 minutes are up.

  • This has got to be the best thing I’ve ever seen on TV. Now I sure hope this season wins awards for that performance.

  • The Greatjon:
    Wow.Larry has gone, as they say, full retard.Where does he think his viewers (and presumably, any money he makes from those views and the podcasts he gets invited to) come from?And that introduction about so few people asking about his well-being just screams drama queen.

    Those 10 minutes are up.

    Excuse us for just leaving him alone, right? Why the hell would anyone ask about his well being? What, someone doesn’t post on their facebook for 2 weeks and everyone’s supposed to assume he’s dead and chase after him?

  • Steven T:
    I’ve read the comments and I have not read the ASOS but I have to say that the writers failed. The reason they failed is they lost a huge number of supporters and fans for the show because there is no one left to have revenge for the Stark Family. Myself, I find myself disinterested and probably won’t watch anymore episodes. That is the feeling for much of the population I watch with. Sucks but its in the hands of writers. Too bad!

    When Ned Stark died, some viewers complained that they had no reason to watch the show any more, that they killed off their favorite character, etc. But ultimately viewers (and new readers) realized that the books are about the consequences of Ned’s death more than they are about Ned. Some deaths are needed to move the story forward.

  • I was waiting in the first half of the RW for a switch with another character (Bran?) But when the Rains of Castamere played, holy shit I knew.

  • I am glad the Red Wedding is finally over and done with… now we can get away from the big secret ambush and move toward the super fantastic story stuff that happens after it.

  • Re: Larry Williams.

    I have watched every one of Larry’s reviews since S01E01. I have vicariously experience his Unsullied viewpoint and I have enjoyed it. While I don’t always agree with everything he has to say, I have enjoyed watching his reviews. I still hope to do so in the future, too.

    What we saw tonight was the anger and disappointment of a fan without any surprise to go with it. All of this is because some asshole Youtube commenter spoiled it all for him 2 years ago. So Larry had all of the downside, none of the “Nigga Ned” upside — and he’s frustrated and pissed. Just like every other fan is supposed to be, too.

    My guess is that he will continue doing Season 4. He’s a fan and fans are allowed to be pissed off at this turn of events. After all — that’s the effect that GRRM is looking for. The story is not exciting and suspenseful if you don’t think the good guys can be killed. With that plus comes some real minuses, too. We’ll be seeing some of those minuses in the days and weeks ahead.

    Which is perfectly normal and to be expected. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

  • GeekFurious:
    I am glad the Red Wedding is finally over and done with… now we can get away from the big secret ambush and move toward the super fantastic story stuff that happens after it.

    dont forget the end of book 5, cunts will spoil that for a certain to

  • Chris:
    I’m with some of the “whiny” book readers who thought the Red Wedding should be more noise and turmoil and CHAOS. Robb and Cat’s deaths were such quiet, slow moving, developments. Even as the scene played out in near silence for the audience, which was appropriate and riveting, we should have SEEN all the fighting going on between the Tully/Stark people and the Frey/Bolton forces and SEEN the drums pounding. Instead it was almost like watching someone go down a shopping list“Okay, and now Bolton steps in and stabs Robb.Okay, and now Cat kills her hostage.Okay, and now one of the Freys comes and kills Cat.”
    It was a little awkward.Ultimately compelling, but awkward.
    It would have been nice to see Gray Wind go out in a blaze of glory, but considering the wolves are actually thousands of miles away from the actors, I guess that would have been cost prohibitive.T

    As much as I loved this episode, I had trouble with the pacing of the RW but couldn’t put my finger on it. You did – it was too slow, too quiet. I had just reread that section of the book and could feel the noise, the chaos, the speed that it all happened. The way they filmed it was like it was all in slow motion. and having Robb get up after being shot several times – that looked out of place -awkward a better word. And yeah, I would have liked to have seen GW do a bit of damage to the other side, and more of the Northmen fighting back. But I also agree with someone saying that our expectations were so high for this episode that nothing they did would meet them. It still was a shock to see, even knowing what happened, and still got me in the gut, just like reading it did the first time around. So the scene worked, but it could have been better.

    I do like that Hound is shown knocking Arya out with a stick instead of with his ax. Im sure im not the only reader who thought he’d killed her.

  • pntrlqst,

    Honestly, good riddance. The show certainly has it’s faults but Larry’s complaints (like no Lannisters at the wedding. Um, do you REALLY think it would have been a surprise if they saw a fucking Lannister chilling in the corner?) never make any sense.

  • this episode was so heart breaking. probably the best of the season3. michelle fairley is so fricking good, i think the unCat thing will be in next week’s episode. i hope it’ll be next episode b/c of the mhysa/ mother theme.

  • Steven T,

    All the ‘I’m not watching GoT anymore’ comments are hilarious – did this show not clearly establish that it wasn’t going to pander to tired narrative tropes? It’s unpredictable postmodernist take on the fantasy genre is the major reason this series is so revered, and the same reason the show been so resonant, surprising, and engaging so far. This show isn’t about easy catharsis.

  • Some of you are so damn nitpicky!

    Robb was shot with several arrows not 50 million . He still has some Adrenaline coursing through him regardless of the arrows protruding from his back and elsewhere. So he managed to stand…he could barely do that!

    And Cat’s scream was fake! Her anguish was fake! WTF?? Have ANY of you EVER lost a child or children? Do you know what that does to a mother? She has lost everyone she loves. Her husband, and her children all in a short amount of time. She is practically already dead inside….watching Robb die is the final wall crashing about her. Women handle grief in many ways…just because she didn’t scream like a banshee doesn’t mean that her grief is any less anguished!

    Michelle Fairley did an amazing job as did Richard Madden!

  • I think Larry has a “view” of what a story should be like when it’s told.
    And I think he expects the hero to be a hero and win out in the end.
    And to just brush over the drama and shock, EVEN if spoiled by knowing of the Red Wedding does a disservice to anyone who watched his reviews and the writers of the show and GRRM.
    I knew about the Red Wedding since I read the book and I still had a gut wrenching reaction to it.
    To just blow it off like it was nothing and say that the scenes with Dany where better. Yes, they were cool, but I thought they were anti-climactic. I thought it was TOO easy. I feel NO danger with Dany. There is no jeopardy.
    Back to Larry, I think people are right, he lost enthusiasm for the show and it showed in his reviews.
    I think it stems, again, from his assumptions of what a story is supposed to be like, how it’s built etc.
    The one thing about GRRM is that you never know what’s going to happen. What’s going to come out of left field.
    It does disappoint me that Larry will no longer be doing any reviews, because I think he’s giving up too easy.
    Sometimes art is meant to be HARD. It’s meant to challenge the viewer. It’s meant to show something real, not just imagined.
    But then, art is also giving only what the viewer of said art takes from it.
    IF, ultimately the art does not speak to you on some level, then you have no reason to view it.
    But to give up on it just because it’s HARD or it does not adjust to your IDEA of what art should say or do, is just lazy and cowardly.

  • Brilliant episode! David Bradley and Michelle Fairley should get Emmy nominations. I almost cried at the end. They even surprised me by killing Talisa instead of taking her as a slave. Soundless credits was a classy move.

  • Larry’s reviews were good in the first season when he was enthusiastic about the show. Now his GoT reviews are just lame. I find my own BMs more intetesting than his reviews.

  • thisone:

    I only have one quibble: Orell warging the bird was a little over the top. Felt like a cheesy warging battle at that point. Of course, the lack of Northern bannermen etc was annoying, but not specific to this episode.

    It wasn’t “cheesy” – it was important. He was a warg and at the moment of his death as Jon killed him, his consciousness transferred to his eagle.

    The show has no Varamyr Six-Skins. It has no prologue to ADwD. There’s no exposition for that essential information. It has to capture all of the information dump in a monologue of 30+ pages in Varamyr’s tale in one 3 second clip. “Show, don’t tell”. They showed.

    They also showed us Grey Wind dying, too.

    NOT cheesy; to the contrary, it was elegant and insightful story telling with the camera.

  • zaprowsdower:
    pntrlqst,

    Honestly, good riddance. The show certainly has it’s faults but Larry’s complaints (like no Lannisters at the wedding. Um, do you REALLY think it would have been a surprise if they saw a fucking Lannister chilling in the corner?) never make any sense.

    Jaime all just relaxing in the background, munching on mini-quiches with his left hand. “Oh, hey guys, don’t mind me.” Cersei lurking behind a potted plant trying to be inconspicuous. The stripper who’s supposed to pop out of the cake missing because Tyrion is busy chatting her up in the kitchen.

    Hee hee hee.

  • HAR! I love all the people on the internet screaming their lungs out on the internet about how the show is horrible, and the writers are terrible and don’t know what a good story is, and that it’s too depressing and there’s not enough instant-satisfaction or reward. And, of course, that they’re all going to stop watching the show now.

    I get the feeling that, for everyone person who stops watching, the sheer amount of noise they generate in that action will draw in dozen new viewers.

  • QUESTION: okay amazing episode loved it. But what did the song mean i don’t get how cat started to think something was up with the song ? I only got it when I saw the armor

  • The Others can take Larry…in my opinion, he’s been nothing but an annoying ass. I never understood the appeal whatsoever, and I couldn’t care less that’s done with the show.

    Whoever was bitching about Michelle Fairley, I think this was the best acting out of her so far in the series. I’m not bashing her in previous scenes by any means, she was always good…I just don’t understand people bitching about her this episode; she was fantastic.

  • Kathleen:
    QUESTION: okay amazing episode loved it. But what did the song mean i don’t get how cat started to think something was up with the song ? I only got it when I saw the armor

    Straight from the wiki:

    The Rains of Castamere was a song written about Lord Tywin Lannister’s crushing victory over rebellious House Reyne of Castamere and the destruction of the House at the end of their rebellion. The song is typically sung as a reminder of the fate that awaits those who cross Tywin Lannister, or the Lannisters of Casterly Rock in general.

  • Clabog,

    Elie Kendrick/Meera Reed said in an interview that she has scenes with Hanna Murray/ Gilly. so it’ll probably be Sam and Gilly. i am sort of skeptic about cold-hands even showing up at this moment.

  • Well my wife cursed me out and went to bed promptly.

    Apparently she hates the Freys too.

  • I guess the blackfish went to take that piss a mile away from the twins? They can’t have ktilled him off.

    I’m hoping George R R Martin doesn’t have any big plans for rob’s kid in the last two books.

    With only two wildlings on this side of the wall I’m guessing no first attack?

    Why is episode 9 always the major climax of the season?

  • LordDavos12,

    Agreed. Larry just makes enough noise to turn a few heads. I prefer group discussions of the show anyway. His reaction to Ned is meme-worthy, but his fame stops there.

    I think some people take issue with the shiw’s adaptation of Catelyn. I don’t share their grievances, but it’s understandable. Anyone taking shots at Fairley herself be trippin’ balls.

  • Kathleen:
    QUESTION: okay amazing episode loved it. But what did the song mean i don’t get how cat started to think something was up with the song ? I only got it when I saw the armor

    The Rains of Castamere is essentially the Lannister national anthem. Worse, it is about Lannister vengeance. It’s akin to playing the German National Anthem at a State dinner in London at the height of the Battle of Britain; a definite “wtf” moment.

  • It is hard to believe that after 3 seasons there are still people out there who are attached to the idea of good houses and bad houses and the good houses will win. Everybody is the good guy in their own head. The best thing about this story is that you can see things from the perspective of multiple characters who are on opposing sides. It’s not like anyone sits around thinking “”I’m a bad guy so I’ll just make some evil plans” I actually saw a comment claiming that nobody likes any Lannisters. WTF? Beg to differ! Jaime is one of my favorite characters along with Arya (and who cares that there families are at war I love them both). It’s always depressing when people have a narrow view of the world and want dumbed down entertainment.

  • Shan: Jaime all just relaxing in the background, munching on mini-quiches with his left hand. “Oh, hey guys, don’t mind me.” Cersei lurking behind a potted plant trying to be inconspicuous. The stripper who’s supposed to pop out of the cake missing because Tyrion is busy chatting her up in the kitchen.

    Hee hee hee.

    Olenna tags along cause why not? She always brings a killer cheese plate to parties.

  • Josla,

    I hope you take comfort knowing you’re not the only one. Richard and Michelle and a good deal of the crewfolk took it mighty hard too. Not to mention the Twitterverse.

    Man, I was not ready for Talisa to die like that. And here I thought she’d play Jinglebell.

  • The wolf scenes always kill me, Lady, saying bye to Nymeria and now Grey Wind! I was hoping with the few changes, like Robbs wife being there, and Arya having lost her own wolf, she was going to set Grey Wind free and he would sail her on out of there, wouldn’t have caused much of a stir, but would have been so effective, like Robb can live on in his wolf, but alas, it didn’t happen.

  • WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I like Cercei. While reading AFFC when I thought she was going to be killed I was dreading it. I supposed she will get it at the end. This is game of thrones after all, and the same is true for Jaime and Tyrion I’m afraid.

  • Josla,

    Aww I am hugging you all the way from northern Canada…the north remembers! And winter is always coming up here…I feel your pain, although I knew it was coming, I bawled uncontrollably while petting my own wolves. :(

  • I’ve just seen the one of the encore presentations and boy is it still painful to watching. By the end I realized that I had not moved at all and when the silent credits stared to roll I was shaking again. I could barely come bon here to write this message. I’m still overwhelmed by what I have just seen…well my sleep is gone for tonight!!! I thought the Red Wedding was gutwrenching when I read the books, seeing it was even more jarring. this though is a testament to the quality of people we have working on this show. The battle scene involving Jorah, Dario and Grey Worm was simply outstanding, Grey Worm was fighting so elegantly, and I loved Jorah and Dario briefly tag teaming to kick some Yinkish ass. Oh joy and Sam The Slayer finally got to be a wizard!!!

    I love to see Dany ‘ s face when she thought Daario was not coming and Jorah’s face seeing Dany fall for Daario!!! I have to say that I like this version of Daario Naharis more than the one in the books. The one in the books is very well written and by design but I cannot find anything to like about him as I do on the show .

    The Bran and Rick on scenes, with the Reeds, Os ha and poor Hodor were excellent. The brothers are now split who knows to what end? Arya and the Hound are a match made in awkward heaven. Great acting from both. Poor Jon had to abandon his fire kissed love…and seeing Ygritte’s wounded face and that broken hearted look was soo sad ass well! Orwell got his comeuppance . As for the bird attacking Jon an ir being cheesy…please it is hard to make something like that and make it credible. You think this is cheesy!?!? Watch Hitchcock’s “The Birds” and then we’ll talk. Yet that movie is just as terrifying today as it was then and it’s now considered a classic. That scene was good so stop nitpicking?

    Alas the dreaded Red Wedding…there is not much that I can say than to thank D&D foe their effort, David Nutter for his great direction. The death of Grey Wind was a punch to the stomach, Rob’s a kick to the groin and Cat’s agonising scream and ultimate death was a knockout punch. I cannot remember something soo awful and soo good and powerful at the same time

    Big time applause and a huge thank you for their brilliant performances to Richard Madden, Oona Chaplin and the wonderful Michelle Fairley!!! You will be terribly missed all of you…I guess there will be more to say on the courtain calls we’ll have soon, and sadly there will be plenty this time around!!!

    Finally, George I love you for your creativity, for your imagination and your literary genius and talent. Thank you for the wonderful gift that is “A Song Of Ice And Fire “! But an you are a cruel bastard sometimes especially to the por Starks!!!

  • WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    It is hard to believe that after 3 seasons there are still people out there who are attached to the idea of good houses and bad houses and the good houses will win.Everybody is the good guy in their own head. The best thing about this story is that you can see things from the perspective of multiple characters who are on opposing sides. It’s not like anyone sits around thinking “”I’m a bad guy so I’ll just make some evil plans” I actually saw a comment claiming that nobody likes any Lannisters.WTF?Beg to differ!Jaime is one of my favorite characters along with Arya (and who cares that there families are at war I love them both).It’s always depressing when people have a narrow view of the world and want dumbed down entertainment.

    Fans are allowed to be fans; they are allowed to be upset.

    Moreover, ease off on the no good houses; no bad houses thing. Despite your words, there isn’t anybody who is a fan who does not expect the Lannisters to be overthrown and the Starks to ultimately succeed and restore their House at the end of the series.

    So yes, the old tropes are still in effect in the series. GRRM simply hides his true heroes well — and the TV series has gone one further on that by excising ALL of that “promise me Ned” stuff from the series.

    GRRM might be the greatest postmodern fantasist, but he’s still at heart telling a fantasy tale where there ARE good guys and bad guys. He tends to make some of the important ones less clear and a little more muddied up, but let’s not pretend that there are not clear villains and clear heroes in this tale. There are. And nobody expects the Lannisters (save for Tyrion — and the jury is out on whether he is actually a Lannister) — or the Others — to win in the end.

  • A great episode. It was as realistic as I could have hoped for. While Michele Farley should get all the props for her acting, I just wanted to add how perfect David Bradley was as old man Frey. Great casting decision. It was fun watching him go thru the process all the while knowing what was going to happen. Mr. Filch couldn’t have done it any better!!! Heh Heh! What’s your name again child?

  • LordDavos12:
    The Others can take Larry…in my opinion, he’s been nothing but an annoying ass.I never understood the appeal whatsoever, and I couldn’t care less that’s done with the show.

    I liked him in the earlier days, because I don’t know that many “unsullied” in real life, so it was nice to see a “normal” persons reactions. But he’s gotten increasingly disillusioned with the series and become less and less enjoyable to watch.

    Not to sound like a douche, but he seems to have a more… juvenile taste in media overall. I’m happy to admit I have my guilty pleasures in media, I STILL love True Blood and thought Spartacus was just so amazingly bad that it went from bad to good, back to bad, and then back to good again. But I know the faults those shows have, and I’m willing to overlook them. But I also love dark dramas and REALLY slowly paced foreign films. The original Swedish version of Let the Right One In for instance; I love that movie to death because of it’s dark, quiet and subtle nature in the same way that I love GOT for many of the same reasons… But I guess some people can’t deal with that stuff.

    I’m sure he is a plenty intelligent person, but he seems like a person who was almost exclusively raised on “normal” American media, which tends to make absolutely sure everything has a happy ending as soon as technically possible. And whenever there is a “death”, it’s usually a secondary character with quick reprisal or victory within twenty minutes. GOT does not work like that. It’s not an “ABC” friendly story and it’s not at all worried about giving you immediate gratification, or even ANY satisfaction in some cases. And I suppose people who are used to near immediate reward for every “downer” just don’t know how to process that and can’t deal with delayed or no gratification.

  • ERF,

    My husband got up and started pacing…we both read the books, he knew what was coming but he didn’t understand why Robb’s wife was there. Also I felt this season, Robb completely neglected Grey Wind, in the book he is distraught ‘mother grey wind’

  • Steel_Wind,

    I can’t really agree with this. As of the ending of Dance with Dragons, Tywin and Joffrey are dead, Jaime’s a changed man and Cersei’s out of her mind. Everybody likes Tommen, Myrcella, and Tyrion already. The Lannisters (in some form) could still be in power at the end with most fans perfectly contented, leaving aside whether or not that’s a likely outcome.

    Although I expect at least one or likely both of Jaime/Cersei to not survive to the end of the saga regardless.

  • I saw the first season of Game of Thrones (anyone who calls it GoT should be punched in the face) before I read the books. Eddard’s death to me was more shocking than the reading about the Red Wedding. My GF at the time knew I loved Ned and even told me my favorite character loses his head (because she was a bitch) and I did not believe her.

    In the books I never liked Robb or Catelynn. I thought they were just ignorant. In the show, with the changes they made, Robb’s wife being pregnant, and Catelynn’s scene at the end, hurt more than reading it I thought. Amazing episode, I knew what was coming and am still floored hours later.

    SPOILERS:

    The problem for me is, George R. R. Martin kind of robs you of wanting vengeance in the books. Tywin gets his, Jaime you get to almost become sympathetic to after awhile, really he is driven by love, and how he is with Brienne, you kind of change your opinion of him. Jaime saved King’s Landing. Tyrion is awesome. Cersei is a main villain really and she loses what she values most as well. The Freys get systematically assassinated by the brotherhood. That is payment enough to Walder Frey who has pride, and he is kind of disgraced in a way after the Red Wedding anyway. Catelynn as a zombie ends up killing Podrick and Brienne and that makes me me not feel bad for Catelynn anymore. Robb was a moron.

    Talisa dieing in the show that way did it for me. Much more devastating than the Red Wedding in the book.

    Even though I loved Ned, he could have avoided it all, but he was too honorable to do what needed to be done. Littlefinger tried to help him.

    I love Game of Thrones but I still like the ROME series better. If you have HBO get on HBOGO.com and watch ROME!!! Ironic that the actor Ceaser is Mance Rayder and the actor Brutus is Edmund Tully.

    Just a poorly thought out and quick comparison of characters

    (HBO/BBC) Rome Vs. Game of Thrones

    Atia of the Julii > Cersei (Atia is more ruthless)
    Lucious Vorenus = Ned Stark (toss up but way better character arc for Lucious, son of HADES))
    Marc Antony = Jaime Lannister (toss up)
    Octavian > Robb Stark, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, Tywin Lannister (Augustus Ceaser > all even the prince of dorne)
    Octavia > Sansa (Octavia seduces her own brother to get information)
    Ceaser > Robert Barratheon/Tywin Lannister
    Pompei = Stannis (toss up)
    Cleopatra = Sand snakes
    Titus Pullo = Red Viper (toss up, two of the best characters ever on film or television or print)
    Servilia > Catelynn (Catelynn is dumb)

    Arya is the only one who really does not have a comparison. She rules all.

    I also love The Hound but Rome I think is better overall still

  • Steel_Wind,

    Yes! Could not agree more even tho watching Robb fall was very tuff for me. Great points about him not doing his Duty. I guess he did have it coming but that was brutal. I don’t think winter is coming anymore I think its safe to say its here.

    However I do take solace knowing that each of Stark’s (Jon, Bran & Arya in particular) has begun a journey that we make each of them very powerful in very different ways and THE NORTH REMEMBERS!!!

  • I also left out Tyrion, oops. Tyrion, Arya and The Hound are fantastic. Jon Snow I will not even mention because he knows nothing :(

    Every character in Rome is more fleshed out that all the rest of the characters in Game of Thrones though:(

  • Greatjon of Slumber:
    I’m a Sullied. So (other than Talisa) I knew what was coming.

    But still.

    OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG. OMFG.

    I mean, just, just, just….fuck.

    It’s about as awful as you could have imagined, as awful as I read it. Basically…I want to be sick.

    As for the non-Red Wedding stuff:

    –The goodbye between Bran and Rickon? Tears. Could they have done that better? Fantastic. You didn’t get this one in the books, and they worked it out well. And once again, we’re in the position where the characters are basically all going to be in the same place as they should be, which is great.

    –Lastly — if all this site can say as far as weaknesses of the episode is “Where is Coldhands?”…well, it’s a pretty damned good episode. Having it pouring rain outside right now, with lightning, kind of helps the mood too.

    –Best episode ever? Perhaps. Only Baelor and Blackwater perhaps match it.

    –also: OMFG. OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.OMFG.

    What you said.

  • Edit:

    Let me stop being mean-spirited and just say that D&D did a great job at surprising book readers and non alike. I covered my mouth in shock when Talisa got stabbed and did not remove it for the entirety of the scene. Witnessed some great TV production that will haunt for years to come.

  • Steel_Wind: It wasn’t “cheesy” – it was important. He was a warg and at the moment of his death as Jon killed him, his consciousness transferred to his eagle.

    The show has no Varamyr Six-Skins. It has no prologue to ADwD. There’s no exposition for that essential information. It has to capture all of the information dump in a monologue of 30+ pages in Varamyr’s tale in one 3 second clip. “Show, don’t tell”. They showed.

    They also showed us Grey Wind dying, too.

    NOT cheesy; to the contrary, it was elegant and insightful story telling with the camera.

    I agree 100%. Plus I think this whole Orell warging into his eagle immediately after getting stabbed by Jon could become HUGE, as in Jon doing the same exact thing and warging into Ghost right after getting stabbed by Bowen Marsh and the rest of the NW conspirators in ADwD. Since he’s already seen another warg doing it right in front of him, even if it’s in the show, this would make a whole lot of sense, IMO.

  • I’ve just seen the one of the encore presentations and boy is it still painful to watch. By the end, I realized that I had not moved at all and when the silent credits stared to roll I was shaking again. I could barely come on here to write this message. I’m still overwhelmed by what I have just seen…well my sleep is gone for tonight!!! I thought the Red Wedding was gutwrenching when I read the books, seeing it was even more jarring. this though is a testament to the quality of people we have working on this show. The battle scene involving Jorah, Dario and Grey Worm was simply outstanding, Grey Worm was fighting so elegantly, and I loved Jorah and Daario briefly tag teaming to kick some Yunkish ass. Oh joy and Sam The Slayer finally got to be a wizard!!!

    I love to see Dany ‘ s face when she thought Daario was not coming and Jorah’s face seeing Dany fall for Daario!!! I have to say that I like this version of Daario Naharis more than the one in the books. The one in the books is very well written and by design but I cannot find anything to like about him as I do on the show .

    The Bran and Rickon scenes, with the Reeds, Osha and poor Hodor were excellent. The brothers are now split who knows to what end? Arya and the Hound are a match made in awkward heaven. Great acting from both. Poor Jon had to abandon his kissed by fire love…and seeing Ygritte’s wounded face and that broken hearted look was soo sad as well! Orell got his comeuppance . As for the bird attacking Jon an ir being cheesy…please it is hard to make something like that and make it credible. You think this is cheesy!?!? Watch Hitchcock’s “The Birds” and then we’ll talk. Yet that movie is just as terrifying today as it was then and it’s now considered a classic. That scene was good so stop nitpicking?

    Alas the dreaded Red Wedding…there is not much that I can say than to thank D&D foe their effort, David Nutter for his great direction. The death of Grey Wind was a punch to the stomach, Rob’s a kick to the groin and Cat’s agonising scream and ultimate death was a knockout punch. I cannot remember something soo awful and soo good and powerful at the same time.

    Big time applause and a huge thank you for their brilliant performances to Richard Madden, Oona Chaplin and the wonderful Michelle Fairley!!! You will be terribly missed all of you…I guess there will be more to say on the curtain calls we’ll have soon, and sadly there will be plenty this time around!!!

    Finally, George I love you for your creativity, for your imagination and your literary genius and talent. Thank you for the wonderful gift that is “A Song Of Ice And Fire “! But you are a cruel bastard sometimes especially to the poor Starks!!!

  • In all honesty, my favorite (I guess that’s the right word?) moment of the episode was Roose’s trolling, “Well?,” look he had on his face when Cat discovered his mail.

    That was a brilliant bit and really conveyed Lord Bolton’s (really super) dark humor.

  • Zack: Everybody likes Tommen, Myrcella, and Tyrion already. The Lannisters (in some form) could still be in power at the end with most fans perfectly contented.

    Although I expect at least Jaime and Cersei to not survive to the end of the saga regardless.

    And Kevan is dead, while Lancel is shattered and sworn to the Sparrows.

    Jaime and Cersei will not survive. Tommen and Myrcella might — and nobody would be upset by that, agreed, but that would still be the ruin of the Lannisters. In any event, the fact that Lancel’s brother remains amongst the missing, suggests to me that he’s being held back to restore the Lannister House at the end. Tommen and Myrcella are pieces in the Game of Thrones and they aren’t likely to make it out alive. I do not expect that missing Lannister heir was so easily misplaced by GRRM. He’ll be back – Varys has him tucked away safe somewhere, I wager.

    Tyrion is one of the heroes in the tale — but as the very first chapter of the series in which he appears notes his hair is “so blonde it is almost white”… and he cast a shadow as tall as a King”…Tywin’s last words to Tyrion were: “You are no son of mine”… “all dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes”… and Ser Barristan has all but admitted that Aerys raped Joanna… I don’t think there’s much doubt who the third head of the Dragon is. And he’s no Lannister.

  • Steel_Wind,

    I expect a Stark will be in Winterfell again too. I’m not claiming people can’t be upset about the RW. I sure was. However it’s clear that all Starks aren’t good. There are hints that Rickard was quite a schemer, the Nightsking was a Stark and warging could corrupt Bran quite a bit.
    I would also doubt that all the more ruthless characters will be vanquished. A couple will probably survive and wind up with a lot of power.
    Also, define winning? Winning the Iron Throne has seemed to be more of a curse than a blessing thus far.
    GRRM said the ending will be bittersweet so I expect a combination of a happy and sad.

  • Steven T,

    When in life do people usually get to have revenge? Besides, if you read the books, who do you get revenge on…Stick with it!

  • God I just feel sick, my soul hurts. Knowing what was coming did not help me in that regard at all. God, I’m glad I don’t have to work tomorrow.

  • Our Hodors Are Sharp,

    Rome > Game of Thrones

    I like both but, Gladiator knockoff? Gladiator was just silly. An Emperor dueling a Gladiator? Gladiator was entertaining but hollywoodified- retarded, like watching Days of Thunder if you are a race car driver or what I would imagine it would be like watching The Expendables if you ever served in the military. Bit insulting to ones intelligence.

    As good as Game of Thrones is, the characters just do not compare to the writing and character arcs in Rome. Also, Rome doesn’t need zombie undead and magic and dragons and swords and sorcery to be amazing. Rome is a fictionalized story with a great moment in history as the backdrop.

    Game of Thrones is a fictional world that pretty much rips off history with fantasy thrown in. Roger Zelazny’s Amber series makes George R. R. Martin look like a hack. George R. R. Martin like Robert Jordan will also die before finishing his series. He will just leave you pissed off even more than you are now. Be ready for massive blue balls as George R. R. Martin has even said he will not allow anyone to finish it if he dies…

  • I thought that they pulled of the Red Wedding almost perfectly :P.

    However, there was two things that I didn’t quite like:
    1) I didn’t like how Roose Bolton just sprinted in from the side, delivered his line, stabbed Robb with a dagger then left. In the books the books he casually strode up to Robb with a giant longsword. Although it is a minor detail, I think it would have vastly improved the scene and made it a bit more dramatic.

    2) Catelyn didn’t have her complete emotional breakdown. It was her breakdown in the books that really emphasised the horror of the situation for me.

  • Steven T,

    You forget that there are still 5 Starks (if you include Jon Snow). There are plenty of people to get revenge. BTW, you are experiencing the same emotions right now that many readers felt after the Red Wedding. There are people who couldn’t continue reading for weeks! But when they did return they were happy they did because The North Remembers and it isn’t over yet. The Red Wedding is an event that is very important in terms of the overall story line, and I think that you and other angry viewers will come to except that eventually (especially if you make it about half way into next season).

  • Panicintrinsica: Larry

    Yeah, this is basically how I feel. I used to love his reviews but he so wants the good guys to win and the bad guys to lose that he just comes off as being unable to appreciate art.

    I can understand the desire for escapism. I have a lot of guilty pleasures, myself. I adore trashy romance novels, for instance, because I know what I’m getting and it’s satisfying to see it go through all the beats with slightly different details. But I can’t read too many of them in a row or I get frustrated by how unchallenging it all is, and the fact of the matter is — I like being challenged.

    Larry has been annoyed at Game of Thrones not being a heroic story for a while, now. Just how he was talking about ADVERSARIES in his most recent review … in the immortal words of John Watson, people people don’t have arch enemies. Part of the gutpunch of the RW is that Walder Frey isn’t “good” enough to end the North, but that’s the point.

    And I could even be okay with all of that if not for how flippantly and shittily he treated everyone. Like, being all mad that people asked about his episode 8 review instead of being worried about him personally? Like, Larry, boy, I don’t know anything about you other than that you like a lot of comic books, occassionally say things about women that makes my feminism twinge, and do Game of Thrones reviews. I wasn’t worried about you because I assumed that you didn’t do an episode 8 review cause you thought it was “boring.” Which … was accurate. Sorry I wasn’t queuing up to lay flowers on your grave, buddy.

  • If anyone wants to know how I am feeling: look up the song named “Betrayer” by the band named “Kreator”…

  • Colby:
    Our Hodors Are Sharp,

    Rome > Game of Thrones

    I like both but, Gladiator knockoff? Gladiator was just silly. An Emperor dueling a Gladiator?Gladiator was entertaining but hollywoodified- retarded, like watching Days of Thunder if you are a race car driver or what I would imagine it would be like watching The Expendables if you ever served in the military. Bit insulting to ones intelligence.

    As good as Game of Thrones is, the characters just do not compare to the writing and character arcs in Rome. Also, Rome doesn’t need zombie undead and magic and dragons and swords and sorcery to be amazing. Rome is a fictionalized story with a great moment in history as the backdrop.

    Game of Thrones is a fictional world that pretty much rips off history with fantasy thrown in. Roger Zelazny’s Amber series makes George R. R. Martin look like a hack. George R. R. Martin like Robert Jordan will also die before finishing his series. He will just leave you pissed off even more than you are now. Be ready for massive blue balls as George R. R. Martin has even said he will not allow anyone to finish it if he dies…

    “Blahblahblahblah”.

  • jaison.biagini@faceb: With only two wildlings on this side of the wall I’m guessing no first attack?

    Maybe, but not necessarily.

    There were definitely more than 7 wildlings attacking the horse breeder’s hut. He had 8 horses and rode away on one of them, leaving 7 for the wildlings to chase him with. I haven’t tried to count the wildlings involved in the fight, but it’s quite possible that most of the wildling force lagged behind and wasn’t involved in the final confrontation. Maybe they looted the hut looking for good weapons and gold.

  • Just read the review/recap over at Westeros, and am I the only one in thinking that they are just downright bitter about the show existing?

  • People are losing their damn minds on Twitter. Saying they will never watch the show again and hate the producers and GRRM . Clearly they weren’t listening to Boy. “If you think this is going to have a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention!”

    The episode was great because I had the same feeeling when the credits rolled as I did when I finished that chapter in the book. Devastated and emotionally gutted. But I understand why people nitpick details that were changed — though I don’t agree with it. People want to see exactly what GRRM wrote and what they pictured magically transplanted to the screen. Even though that just isn’t possible. This is one of the best shows on TV ever and arguably the finest adaptation of a novel to screen. Is it perfect? No. But it is damn good and I am pretty thankful that I have it to enjoy during the very long wait for the next book.

    Also, if you were impressed with the episode steer clear of westeros.org’s analysis unless you enjoy being completely irritated. I have read the analysis there since Season 1 because I enjoyed getting a different book-centric take on the show. After reading the analysis for this episode I firmly believe that they should give up doing them after this season. They just seem to have no ability to critique the show objectively anymore.

    I don’t get it. Maybe it is because of how involved they are with GRRM and the upcoming supplemental book. I expect them to be biased to a certain degree but they are so overly critical of the show and quite condescending of the producers at times. It just seems like they criticize for the sake of criticism and to constantly drive home the point that the books are far superior to the show. And that if viewers don’t understand what they see as the show’s shortcomings it is because they aren’t smart or sophisticated enough to get it. Ugh! Just so ridiculous for people who clearly have benefited from the success of the show.

    Sorry for the rant. I was just really irritated after reading the review over there.

  • Vidluv,

    He might be a minor character, but his appearance adds a nice layer of magic and mystery to Bran’s unique storyline. That’s why I want Coldhands on the show.

  • I do not get how people think the scene failed in some way because Catelyn did not tear her face off. Not at all honestly.

    D&D showed her snapping just fine by her screaming and then going dead still and silent, a catatonic break. It was effective to me in so far as it shoed her breakdown.

    I did no like that there was no action or movement behind her until the throat slit though. That seemed a bit awkward to me.

    In fact the choreography of the scene was my only disappointment. The way they framed the death blows centering on each Stark isolated in stillness, center frame and alone, and then from out of frame some Frey or Bolton would scramble in and stab or slice at them etc.. Each of the death blows seemed VERY odd to me for that reason….

    That one issue of staging aside I think that D&D made the Red Wedding as horrific and brutal as in the books!

  • LordDavos12:
    Just read the review/recap over at Westeros, and am I the only one in thinking that they are just downright bitter about the show existing?

    Nah, you’re not the only one.
    Sometimes I agree with some points Elio makes, but this time he really turned into Maximum Whiner.

  • Darquemode,

    ETA:
    I always assumed the face scratching would never make it into the series because when Un-Cat is shown it will be much easier to not have to do prosthetic face gouges. Much like they down played Tyrion’s scarring for the same reson.

  • Perfect. Completely perfect. Jon’s bits were perfect, Bran’s bits were perfect. Arya’s bits were perfect. Catelyn’s bits were perfect. The way she discovered Roose Bolton wearing armour, like she did in the books. The mocking smile he gave her. The music. The crossbows, Catelyn at the end, her death, Talisa dying and Robb just looking at her with arrows through his body. Bran and Rickon’s tearful separation, Grey Wind dying, Arya’s confusion.

    Amazing. Just bloody amazing. My ONLY complaint is the omission of “That bloody wedding” from the Hound.

  • I agree, Elio & Linda just come off as whiny armchair writers/directors now. It was fun seeing them defend GRRM’s episode by managing to pass the blame to D&D though.

  • I knew what was going to happen but still felt sick to the stomach with anticipation for most of the episode. Silently sobbing for the last scene. Don’t want to make an exception, but can I really re-watch that any time soon.
    5/5 for that episode anyway.

  • WompWomp:
    A Storm of S-Words,

    Talisa had one of the most brutal deaths yet. I found her reaction harder to take than nearly anything else we’ve seen from GoT, Theon physical therapy sessions included.

    Precisely. In fact I don’t want to ever think about the deaths thoroughly. Whereas
    with Theon, my mind already paces to the expected means of torture [ it
    helps to know that he survives though, if a little mad, but alive ]
    .

    When I read ” A Storm of Swords ” with those specific chapters with the
    wedding at the Twins, I was stunned as most people were here. I tossed the
    book in a corner and retrieved it the next day. It took me a moment to
    process and pardon GRRM for writing this, and so effectively.

  • LordDavos12,

    I do not always agree with Elio’s reviews, but I think this one is spot on.
    The word “effective” was the first thing I thought of when I commented. I do not think the episode was “Awesome” or extremely well done. I thought there were a lot of staging issues with the RW itself… and the lack of Northern bannermen fighting back turned it into utter slaughter.

    An episode can be brutal and beautiful at the same time, this was just brutal to me. This is the first episode of the series I did not re-watch after. I may not watch it again honestly. At least not for a long wile.

    That stated, I think D&D captured the feeling of horror from the books. Honestly though, I think it was a given that the RW was going to be brutal and horrific and make a huge impact no matter how D&D staged it and wrote it.

  • Clara:
    I knew what was going to happen but still felt sick to the stomach with anticipation for most of the episode. Silently sobbing for the last scene. Don’t want to make an exception, but can I really re-watch that any time soon.
    5/5 for that episode anyway.

    I know exactly what you mean.

  • Rose: And I could even be okay with all of that if not for how flippantly and shittily he treated everyone. Like, being all mad that people asked about his episode 8 review instead of being worried about him personally? Like, Larry, boy, I don’t know anything about you other than that you like a lot of comic books, occassionally say things about women that makes my feminism twinge, and do Game of Thrones reviews. I wasn’t worried about you because I assumed that you didn’t do an episode 8 review cause you thought it was “boring.” Which … was accurate. Sorry I wasn’t queuing up to lay flowers on your grave, buddy.

    I thought that part was seriously weird. I remember in season two he just dropped off the planet for a couple weeks and loads of people were worried about him. But in that case it was (afaik) the first time he’d ever just not posted a review. But now that’s he’s done the whole “disappear from the internet without telling anyone only to come back a week later just fine” routine, he’s sort of established a precedent that “Leaves of Absence =/= Dead”. So what precisely was he expecting?

    Also the whole “My Game of Thrones reviews are overshadowing my other videos.” thing is really bizarre logic. It’s not like the people who watch his GoT reviews are going to suddenly start watching all his other videos if he stops making the ones that are driving traffic in his direction in the first place. If anything, now he’ll get significantly less views overall, because all the shows he is “passionate” about have pointedly less passionate viewerships. Speaking for myself anyway, I never go looking for people’s reactions to ANY of the other two dozen or so shows I kill my time with. Not sure he understands how marketing works. But oh well… I guess I’ll just have to find another Unsullied to watch.

  • kelly,

    I love Game of Thrones on HBO, but the books can be quite tedious. I get through them fine but the girl who got me into the show and the books took like a year to read A Feast For Crows. I myself read it in a week but I also enjoy reading textbooks.

    Each book is the size of the bible and the characters you end up loving, die, or they aren’t even in one book and you have to read like 2000 pages just to get back to their story arc.

    It works brilliantly as a show though.

    George R. R. Martin’s trick as a writer is just sheer volumne, the characters are deep because there is 10000 pages of history involved. There is not really any deep insightful social commentary on the human condition.

    He has specifically stated, that he kills off main characters because when a main character is in peril, he wants the reader afraid to turn the page. You can also do that by being a good writer, not just with shock value of killing everyone.

    Anne Proulx can tell an epic tale in 6 pages, Martin needs 6000.

  • I really like Elio, his enthusiasm and knowledge of the books are second to none, but he is blinded by his love for the books and is potentially the least objective person I have ever seen regarding the adaptation. It’d be better for everyone involved if he just laid off and stopped watching.

  • Roose Bolton:
    Hey guys, sorry about that.

    May the grimm keeper meet you in the prison that awaits you.

    Really ! Aren’t you catching ire ( and flak ) for your chosen signature ? (:

  • Darquemode,

    I don’t think it was meant to be “awesome”, to be honest.
    Was someone really expecting a battle? The northernmen were taken by surprise, drinking and celebrating.

  • Darquemode,

    I know what you’re saying about possibly not watching it again. I will at some point…it’s a weird feeling, isn’t it? The only thing I can compare it to is how I felt after going to see the Passion of the Christ in college. I’m not a huge religious person or anything, and had went to see it based on hype alone…after seeing it that one time, I just can’t bring myself to watch it again. I don’t even remember if it was a good film or a bad film, but after that one time, I had just felt so…drained from the whole ordeal, I didn’t really want to go through it again, even nine years later. I don’t think this episode will have that same effect, but it will definitely be a while before I watch it again.

  • Xadus,

    Um, you do realize that there are still more Starks alive than have been killed n the series right? Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon all live.

    You still have 5 reasons to watch if you truly watch “for the Starks!”

  • Darquemode:
    Xadus,

    Um, you do realize that there are still more Starks alive than have been killed n the series right? Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon all live.

    You still have 5 reasons to watch if you truly watch “for the Starks!”

    Don’t forget Nymeria, Ghost, Shaggydog, and Summer! :)

  • I rather liked that they made the wedding fun and jovial – How better to disarm the people you are about to butcher?

    Tears were just streaming down my face the second “The Rains of Castamere” came on. I knew T was going to die but stabbing her in the belly was really hard for me to watch as a young woman in her childbearing years. Grey Wind’s last breath was just gut wrenching too.

    All of the people who are saying they won’t ever watch again sound JUST like my 3 year old when he tells me he doesn’t like me and he’s not my friend because I won’t let him play with knives or eat ice cream for breakfast. You’ll get over it.

  • Valdred Dethstorm,

    Let me guess, you play World of Warcraft!

    Eve Online > all.

    Honestly, The guy who trashed Rome obviously never saw it and neither have you.

    My only problem with Game of Thrones is, George R. R. Martin will not finish it. He will die. He took like 5 years to write book 5. We are in season 3. I mean in 2 years will Game of Thrones go on a 10 year hiatus so he can write another book?

    I hope they are allowed to finish the series on HBO instead of in print. The books will just probably stop in the middle of the story, and the adapted HBO version will be the end. Which is good because Martin is not that good of a writer.

    I admit Game of Thrones may be one of the best shows ever, I am just saying it is just under Rome :)

  • Boy, that was gut wrenching. Knowing what happens ahead of time still doesn’t make it any easier. I was sick to stomach afterward and it took a good while to shake off.

    ALL of my non-reader friends totally FREAKED OUT. and I think Game of Thrones broke twitter, haha.

    Brilliant episode, no complaints.

    RED WEDDING. Now I don’t have to hide it anymore. Glad it’s over.

  • LordDavos12,

    Seriously!
    This episode was draining!

    I honestly did not dread this episode going in like so many people. Still, it gutted me (no pun intended), especially the new bit with Talisa.

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    I use awesome as a rating scale (Awesome being the top most rating) and NOT a comment of any expectation of feeling awesome after.

    In the books the Robb’s men were surprised as well, and yet more than a few attempted to fight back.

    Truthfully the RW was one of the most difficult scenes in the books to film… and also one of the easiest. I think I was going to be horrific almost no matter what D&D wrote because the source material was so horrific. I think D&D did well with capturing the feeling of brutality like I said, it was very effective in that respect. I just do not think the staging was done well at all.

  • No way to be prepared for this one.
    What is the Talisa thing about, though? Is that a spoiler, or there’s actually a chance that they’ve parted with the books completely on that storyline? And pleaaaaase let the Blackfish be fine because he stepped out to pee and realized what was going on. I was sorry that they left out Cat’s psychotic break, but I get it. It’s the same reason they didn’t have Dany go bald, it’s just not “tv right” to have Catelyn’s face all torn apart and her hair white, even for an evil zombie/undead. She’ll just be a little pale or something. Bran and Jon were great, the warg thing is completely explained and Jon is heading back to Castle Black (sans arrow in the leg, true). I just hope people will remember this stuff too.
    I really love dogs, Grey Wind broke my heart so bad…wish he’d taken a few guys down with him

  • Colby:
    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Let me guess, you play World of Warcraft!

    Eve Online > all.

    Honestly, The guy who trashed Rome obviously never saw it and neither have you.

    My only problem with Game ofThrones is, George R. R. Martin will not finish it. He will die. He took like 5 years to write book 5. We are in season 3. I mean in 2 years will Game of Thrones go on a 10 year hiatus so he can write another book?

    I hope they are allowed to finish the series on HBO instead of in print. The books will just probably stop in the middle of the story, and the adapted HBO version will be the end. Which is good because Martin is not that good of a writer.

    I admit Game of Thrones may be one of the best shows ever, I am just saying it is just under Rome :)

    Wrong. I couldn’t care less about WoW or MMOs. I hate those things.
    I’ve seen Rome. Good show. It’s just that you’re not saying anything new. Just another long whiney rant about how GRRM will croak before finishing the books.
    Meh.

  • “gut punc,” eh? very good summary otherwise, I almost didn’t want to watch the ep knowing what was coming but I’m glad I did. Wanted to see GreatJon bite wrestled by 8 guys though!

  • Just saw #GoT is the number one trending thing on Twitter right now….now I can’t wait to see the ratings for not only this week, but especially for next week’s episode as well

  • Colby,

    I could see that.

    Just remember that Game of Thrones is restricted in a way that Rome (I don’t believe) is. They are condensing a fully fleshed out book into short TV series instead of building a TV series from the ground up.

    They are doing a good job at telling the Asoiaf story but I’m glad I have to books to have the background information necessary for fully understanding every character.

  • Steel_Wind,

    The cheesiness to me was the obviously puppeteer bird lol

    Don’t get me wrong, I loved this episode and the TV series and it wasn’t enough to distract me from the story but for a moment I did laugh and think “who brought the homemade eagle puppet from home”?

  • Rhys: I don’t understand why some people actually enjoy being utter cunts.

    There’s no cure for being a cunt.

  • Wow…

    Talisa’s death made me feel shocked and sick. My stomach twisted up, and stayed that way through the whole massacre. I accidentally saw a spoiler about Talisa, but didn’t know how it would happen. It was shocking, and set the tone for the whole “event”.

    Wish they’d explained the whole guest right thing, but oh well. Overall, I think they nailed it.

    Can’t wait to hear non-readers reactions.

  • Clob:
    Curious.
    I’ve been reading interviews done that were posted immediately after the episode airing, such as those from EW.They seem to be implying that Michelle is done on the show, which would be assumed by those that don’t know about Lady Stoneheart.Is there a chance they will cut all of Stoneheart from the show?Might they use a different actress to play it since it’s a small part and undead makeup can hide different appearance?

    Hope not! I always thought they cast Michelle, rather than a younger actress, especially because should would be perfect for this transition.

    They might go for the whole curtain call thing, and then bring her back next season as a surprise.

  • Colby,

    Just my two cents

    I’ve read all the current books in Asoiaf and watched both the GoT and Rome series.

    I like GoT better.

    Your jealously must run deep since your trying to project your Rome and Amber love in a Game of thrones thread.

  • They did explain the guest rite as soon as they presented to Walter Frey. Notice they all have bread and salt, then he goes on to explain that they are guests under his protection.

    In any case, it was what I expected, and dreaded, horrific. They nailed it. Granted the pacing of Ron and catelyns deaths was a bit jarring, I think that broke down pacing actually made it stick in the throat a bit.

    And people complaining that Robb got up and stumbled around like he was in a nightmare even though he had been pin cushioned.
    Boromir

  • Usually I would hate episodes after season one written by tweedle dee and tweedle dum but they did alright by killing off Talisa, though why introduce her in the first place. Unnecessary changes from the books like her and Ros needs to disappear. All the rest is poorly done, especially that cheesy bird. OMG! I think it would have been better if Big Bird attacked Jon.

    “No Coldhands” is you guys only complaint? Talk about sugarcoating it and it’s not the only instance this has happened. When you know that it will probably happen next episode. I know you people are big fanboys of the show, but don’t need to drop your knees to D&D. Come on, you guys have more dignity than that.

  • Clob:
    Curious.
    I’ve been reading interviews done that were posted immediately after the episode airing, such as those from EW.They seem to be implying that Michelle is done on the show, which would be assumed by those that don’t know about Lady Stoneheart.Is there a chance they will cut all of Stoneheart from the show?Might they use a different actress to play it since it’s a small part and undead makeup can hide different appearance?

    What do you think she HAS to say in an interview released right after this episode? She can’t spoil another major twist.

  • Updated characters with the most lines in Season 3:

    1. Tyrion – 185
    2. Jaime – 119
    3. Daenerys – 98
    3. Arya – 98
    5. Robb – 92
    6. Sansa – 87
    7. Jon – 85
    8. Cersei – 84
    9. Tywin – 81
    10. Margaery – 72

    11. Olenna – 71
    12. Bran – 70
    13. Ygritte – 69
    14. Thoros – 67
    15. Theon – 64
    16. Joffrey – 63
    17. Brienne – 60
    18. Missandei – 58
    19. Hound – 54
    19. Shae – 54

    21. Osha – 52
    22. Jorah – 51
    22. Melisandre – 51
    24. Davos – 48
    24. Gendry – 48
    24. Talisa – 48
    27. Samwell – 47
    28. Catelyn – 46
    28. Varys – 46
    30. Bronn – 45
    30. Jojen – 45
    30. Stannis – 45

    33. Ramsay – 43
    34. Kraznys – 43
    35. Littlefinger- 40

    I wonder if Bran can crack the Top 10 for the season; it would be the first time.

  • Starkgaryen:
    Colby,

    Just my two cents

    I’ve read all the current books in Asoiaf and watched both the GoT and Rome series.

    I like GoT better.

    Your jealously must run deep since your trying to project your Rome and Amber love in a Game of thrones thread.

    I love Rome and before GoT it was my favourite ever show. Rome succeeds in ways that GoT and doesn’t and vice versa. I prefer GoT.

  • I neglected to mention this in an earlier post….

    But this episode’s scenes concerning Dany coincided with my hate involving book Dany. Let me be clear…this is not a rail against Emilia, she is wonderful, gorgeous, and has great charisma. Maybe it’s just because we’re about to enter the Meereenese knot section of her arc, but totally dissing Jorah like that? For douchey Daario who you met like a day or two ago? I’m already starting to get irritated.

  • Ultimately I have no complaints. While I would have liked to have the Arya cliffhanger to send the audience into hysterics. I think they needed to end on Catelyn’s death. The way they handled Talia’s murder was gut wrenching for book readers, so I liked that they didn’t pull any punches. I do agree that the staging of Roose and Nameless felt more like out of theater than TV. Did neither of them see that coming? And yes I do think a differnet perspective on the staging could have been nice.BUT I think they erred on the side of keeping the focus on the dying character. that close crop, which I feel embodied the fear an desolation of how the chapter was written. Didn’t entirely translate to TV, but I see why they did it. LOVE the silen credits and LOVE even more that it wasn’t a bunch of filler and RW, but EVERY storyline was so intense. The WHOLE episode delivered. Can;t wait to see how they handle the other two enormous events of SoS
    RJB,

  • LordDavos12:
    Rhys,

    I’d hit a “like” button if I could sir

    I SECOND THAT!

    What is the point of watching a show if you have no respect for or enjoyment of the source material?? Obviously people don’t have to read the books to like the show but why spend your time watching a show based on something you dislike? It is like sitting down to eat a piece of carrot cake and then complaining to the cook that your dessert wasn’t all that great because you never liked carrots anyway. Why eat the damn cake if you don’t like the ingredients?

    If you think the books are so subpar head on over to westeros.org. I am sure you will find plenty of people to talk to.

  • Michel,

    Totally agree. Him coming in from the front felt awkward. Hime whispering him in ear would have been better. But all nitpicking aside. What an amazing epsiode.

  • Steel_Wind:
    I really missed the punk version of Bear and the Maiden Fair during the credits — didn’t you all?

    This killed me! Thank you good sir. I’m trying to picture an Irish jig version of the Rains of Castamere in the credits.

  • Colby,

    Rome > Game of Thrones” Because Rome being cancelled obviously proves it superiority, no?

    I like both but, Gladiator knockoff?”
    A little bait to rile you up. Glad the fish bit.

    Terrible analogies once again from you. Gladiator innovated the sword and sandals genre and was what proved topics like Rome or Spartacus could work with a modern audience. What has Days of Thunder or that old 80s action heroes’ dying vehicle done for their respective genres? You might as well bring up fucking Jurassic Park and say that insults the intelligence of paleontologists.

    “An Emperor dueling a Gladiator?”
    Did it not happen with Commodus? Did he not put himself in the arena because he was a megalomaniac? So what if the movie dramatized that aspect? How is it much different from taking (as you say) “a fictional story with a great moment in history as the backdrop”?
    It’s only insulting if you’re insecure enough to feel insulted, buddy.

    “As good as Game of Thrones is, the characters just do not compare to the writing and character arcs in Rome.”
    I beg to differ.Rome ran its course and its reinterpretations of historical domain characters (among many interpretations done throughout the decade) hardly impressed me even if they attempted to make things edgier, the dialogue cruder and added more freaks and fornication. You jumping into this GoT fansite, raving like an attention-seeking idiot fanboy and giving over-generalized comparisons as evidence that Rome trumps GoT does not convince me in the least of otherwise. Especially with this simpleton “X > Y” bullshit.
    You even self-deprecate as if it helps your cause. Well, you were honest about your case being poorly thought out, you just weren’t being honest enough to admit your entire argument from head to tail was also complete horseshit to begin with.

    “Rome doesn’t need zombie undead and magic and dragons and swords and sorcery to be amazing.”
    Nope, all it needs is to nick an already established plotline skeleton, throw in their own crass interpretations, violence and contrived drama for bit characters, grab some established actors and rake in the profits.
    Behold Rome, the instant noodles of live-action television, making history fun again! I’d rather play R2TW than watch another season, thank Jupiter/Sol Invictus they cut it.

    “Game of Thrones is a fictional world that pretty much rips off history with fantasy thrown in.”
    And so did Amber, which ripped off far more than history. If you’re going to be doing another shallow comparison about which novel series is better, at least use the correct name. It’s A Song of Ice and Fire, not Game of Thrones. Does the Chronicles of Amber have a television series based on it? Does it have a franchise? Too bad.

    “Roger Zelazny’s Amber series makes George R. R. Martin look like a hack.”
    I’m sorry, but what does this have to do with Rome again? Bringing up a completely unrelated work of fiction in an entirely different medium does not lend any justification to your claim that Rome trounces Game of Thrones. On the contrary, trying to grasp at straws and claiming some other series is better at doing what one series is doing in a poor (though that is expected, you admitted as much) attempt at diminishing the merits of ASOIAF, as if that somehow makes it’s live-action adaptation inferior to Rome in turn is absurd and pathetic.
    I find the Discworld books to be more enjoyable than ASOIAF and they share a common ground, but you won’t see me bringing that up here like some half-wit. Simply because this is not the place to do so.

    “George R. R. Martin like Robert Jordan will also die before finishing his series. He will just leave you pissed off even more than you are now. Be ready for massive blue balls as George R. R. Martin has even said he will not allow anyone to finish it if he dies…”
    Aww, boo fucking hoo. GRRM might die and leave us with unfinished work, woe is the ASOIAF fandom. Then we remember that the TV adaptation will continue on anyway because Martin let the producers know what would transpire in the event that very scenario happens. Just because you experienced “blue balls” when Rome failed, you’re mewling around here wishing that the ASOIAF fandom experience the same, fucking sad.

    Go jack off to reruns of Rome or circlejerk in a site that cares about it.

  • Red Hound:
    I think the only way I can “enjoy” watching this episode will be watching Unsullied reactions on youtube.

    The North Remembers.

    EDIT : https://twitter.com/RedWeddingTears
    Some of those are very nasty…

    This one cracked me up:

    Fomes Peccati ‏@Fomes_Peccati 2h
    I want to find George R. R. Martin and beat that fat fuck’s ass after tonight’s episode of Game of Thrones.
    Retweeted by TheRedWedding

  • Rhys: I don’t understand why some people actually enjoy being utter cunts.

    I’m pretty sure he or she is a kid, so take it for what it is.

  • Anne:
    RED WEDDING. Now I don’t have to hide it anymore. Glad it’s over.

    Indeed. No spoilers anymore!

    REDWEDDINGREDWEDDINGREDWEDDINGREDWEDDING! Ah, I needed that.

  • Steel_Wind:
    Moreover, ease off on the no good houses; no bad houses thing. […]
    [GRRM] tends to make some of the important ones less clear and a little more muddied up, but let’s not pretend that there are not clear villains and clear heroes in this tale. There are.

    However, there’s a big difference between good/bad houses and good/bad people. Only individuals choose; collective entities do not. I won’t condemn a house based on the actions of one of its individual members. If you’ve decided to root for the Starks, you may (should) feel uneasy when Stark men pillage and rape peasants. I like that GRRM doesn’t let us get away with such generalizations.

  • just rewatched the episode in HQ and the timing of the final moments of the Red Wedding is really chilling. It does that moment of shock and surprise so well. The fact that Rob and Cat really don’t even have time to process what is happening. Those moments when Cat is just reeling after her scream (I think it’s really clear that she’s gone mad – anything more OTT could pull viewers out of it) and Rob is just knocked down to an almost childlike level of uncertainity and confusion and everything else is still really work on the rewatch.

    ugh that was painful, but such a great episode.

    I like the paralells about the Starks being programmed at a fundamental level to save/spare the innocent bystanders – the pork merchant, horse trader, and then the fact that Catelyn in extremis rips right through the ‘protect the weak’ imperative and kills the childwife of Walder Frey.

  • I think everyone forgets that all the Starks are just kids.If Im correct Robb is only 14-15 years old in the book and he is the oldest. There is still 5 stark5 left. People need to relax.

  • “A dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is considered a dull affair.”

    This is a wedding Khal Drogo would have loved to be invited to.

  • WTF DID YOU DO IN S3E9 WHY I MEAN WHY DO YOU SLAY ALL THE GOOD PPL WHO CAN ACT !?!?!?!?! WTF STOP RUINING THE SERIES FFS!

  • Wow. 5/5 for me. As soon as Lame Lothar shut the doors…my already upset stomach twisted in knots…the music playing and that genius moment with Cat and Bolton…and then Talisa happened.

    I’ll have more thoughts later.

    There has been a lot of talk about whether Cat’s resurrection should be featured in the season finale and to be quite honest…given the meltdown on Twitter right now, it would be a smart move on D & D’s behalf. Hell, right now I’d even accept the PW.

  • Was anybody else incredibly happy about Gilly calling Sam a wizard? No? Just me?

    He always wanted to be a wizard.

  • Things Im wondering about the future now…

    The Blackfish. Will they not have him stubbornly holding Riverrun and confronting Jaime?
    Osha and Rickon. Will we follow their journey or not see them for ages now?
    Does Talisa being dead nullify the ‘Jeyne’ is actually pregnant theory?

    Some hopes for the future.

    That we do follow Osha and Rickon. That would be cool.
    That we still have scenes with Roose Bolton even though Robb is no longer around. This is the point where Roose becomes very interesting… I’d like to see more of his creepiness from the books bleed in, the whispery voice, the leeching.

  • The actual build up to it was great with the doors closing and the Rains of Castamere playing but once shit start going down it felt off. It was all too sudden. I know a lot people may think slowmo can be cheesy but I really think this scene needed some especially for the first arrow that hits Robb. Robb should have been the first person hit and everything should have slowed down to show the reactions of Cat and Talsia and then have Talisa get stabbed and all hell break loose. A lot of the directing was off, like the way Roose just comes in out of nowhere and stabs Robb, it looked almost comical. It looks like they are saving some of the carnage for next week which I think is a mistake, I wanted to see more carnage outside the fest with the tents being lit afire and people burning and Arya witnessing it all. It wasn’t a complete disappointment but it wasn’t the epic television spectacle I was hoping for. It makes me wish they got Alan Taylor to direct this episode considering how perfectly directed Neds execution scene was. I would have loved to see what he could have done with this scene.

  • why the fuck are you people talking about rome, some larry guy and other shit? Red fucking Wedding just happened. what’s wrong with you.

    anyway, could have been a little more chaotic as someone said. and have a bit more of grey wind too, his spider sense tingling when they entered wouldn’t worked with the way they built the scene but he could at least kill some freys before going down (especially with arya sitting there next to his cage). loved the whole bit though, re-watched like 3 times now ;p

    also, as a ’24’ fan i was kinda hoping they’d go for silent credits ;p

    can’t really say about the rest of the episode. gotta re-watch as i wasn’t paying enough attention nervously waiting for RW.

    seeing robb’s corpse with GW head in next episode is gonna be awesome. hope they don’t cut that.

  • Hounded:
    Things Im wondering about the future now…

    The Blackfish. Will they not have him stubbornly holding Riverrun and confronting Jaime?
    Osha and Rickon. Will we follow their journey or not see them for ages now?
    Does Talisa being dead nullify the ‘Jeyne’ is actually pregnant theory?

    Some hopes for the future.

    That we do follow Osha and Rickon. That would be cool.
    That we still have scenes with Roose Bolton even though Robb is no longer around. This is the point where Roose becomes very interesting… I’d like to see more of his creepiness from the books bleed in, the whispery voice, the leeching.

    Blackfish. I think he will almost definitely escape, and we will see it next episode, or see him back in Riverrun next season or S5. At the very least, he was not shown to have died.

    Osha and Rickon. I’m thinking we might see Ramsay go after them next season, forcing them to go to Skagos. That gives them the opportunity to introduce Wex who can tell Wyman Manderly who in turn tells Davos.

    Talisa. I’m afraid so. Elio said he was 99% certain that the “clue” was just a mistake from GRRM, anyway.

  • GUYS what happened to the Blackfish? I see someone looking like him getting an arrow but not sure if it’s him that got killed. >_> And where is Edmure? At the bedding still?

  • Loved it. And Bolton finally smiles for the first time. If anyone wasn’t a flayer-hater before …

  • Aaron,

    If you don’t see a person explicitly getting killed, they’re most likely not dead. Same deal as the books (read about instead of seeing, though!). Edmure is shagging his new wife, and the Blackfish was outside taking a leak, which pretty much confirms that he has a bigger role later in the series.

  • jkb,

    Every troll and their grandmothers already spoiled the RW since 2 years ago, it’s lost most of its impact now. Still, I will say that Talisa’s death was rather brutal, never liked the character but it was rather nasty of them to repeatedly stab her in the belly like that.

    On another note, I did like Ninja Bolton who can turn a slap into momentum for a dash.

  • Needless to say I was anticipating seeing this scene sooo hard, and was more thinking about how my non-book reader friends would react, but when I actually watched the scene myself, I literally felt worse than when I read it. God, they absolutely fucking nailed it. I seriously was holding back tears and i’m a super-emotionless-dude who hasn’t cried in years, not even reading the books.

    P.S. THANK THE SEVEN they didn’t do any cheesy slow-mo for the scene, it all happened so brutally and fast, which is exactly how it should be and how i imagined it

  • GRRM might be the greatest postmodern fantasist, but he’s still at heart telling a fantasy tale where there ARE good guys and bad guys. He tends to make some of the important ones less clear and a little more muddied up, but let’s not pretend that there are not clear villains and clear heroes in this tale. There are. And nobody expects the Lannisters (save for Tyrion — and the jury is out on whether he is actually a Lannister) — or the Others — to win in the end.

    There are a couple of true villains in this series. There might be a couple of true heroes. Most characters — from all Houses — are neither.

    You’re being kind of No True Scotsman-y about this, frankly. You’re saying that any Lannister who acts like a good guy doesn’t count as a Lannister. By that math, I’d pretty much have to say that the only Lannisters who exist are Tywin, Joffrey, Cersei, and about 50% of Jaime. They must be pretty lonely now that they’ve discovered that every other member of their House is a hologram.

    If there are good and bad houses, where the heck does that leave houses like the Targaryens, by the way? Are Aerys and Viserys good guys? Are Daenerys and Rhaegar bad guys? Are you going to tell me that either Aerys or Daenerys are not true Targaryens?

    The Starks are an argument for one kind of good: following moral rules to the end, damn the consequences, no matter what it costs you (or, hey, the people who follow you, the people who count on you, your family, etc.). Targaryens like Daenerys are an argument for a different kind of good: help and protect as many people as possible, whether you know them or not, even if you have to burn the whole fucking world down to do it. And, yes, the more decent Lannisters are an argument for a different kind of good: protect the people you love, first and foremost, because nobody else will.

    Ned Stark would think Daenerys was a terrible person for lying to the Second Sons and turning on the Astapori slave traders after making an honest trade with them. Daenerys would think Ned Stark was a terrible person for refusing to do so. I’m pretty sure that Ned Stark would have brought King Aerys his father’s head if he’d been part of the Kingsguard and ordered to do so — especially if his only other choice was breaking his vow and stabbing the king. The question of whether his choice was more the “good guy” choice than Jaime’s in that scenario is, I’d say, an open question, not an obvious one.

    It’s impossible to have only one kind of good guy in this series. We don’t even have only one kind of good.

  • pntrlqst,

    The Red Wedding has the Lannisters written all over it. It’s so much better having no Lannisters physically present! That Tywin was plotting and scheming this all along is clear and it’s clever knowing he is there even though he is not. The Rains of Castamere certainly let Cat know who was behind it.

  • Violentos:
    Amazing episode! The ONLY thing I didn’t absolutely love was the Rickon scene. I really want to like Rickon, but the actor who is portraying him just seems… out of place next to these other brilliant actors. I mean, he IS very young, I understand that. I just naturally cringed a little with his facial expressions, pretending to be sad and concerned. I couldn’t help it! Maybe it’s just me.

    Anyways, I wont go on about what I loved in this episode because this post would turn into a three page essay! Just fantastic, 2nd best episode next to s02e09.

    I totally agree. The child actors have been amazing in not overdoing things, but this was just really underwhelming compared to other performances. I hope he maybe takes some acting classes if he reappears, or maybe they’ll just recast since he may only reappear in a couply of years.

  • ive read the books but was still upset. My mum cried and my brothers lock himself in his room. Reading it and seeing it are two different things and wow watching it was brutal. The way Talisa died was fucked. I loved Michelle’s performance, what an amazing Catelyn. This has ruined my day now cause i’m distressed and i probably wont be able to sleep either :( i keep telling myself that everything happens for a reason. ahhh fuck sake :(

  • Maybe in the next couple days I’ll read through all these comments. Too much for now. Here’s my impressions…

    Queenscrown – the whole Queenscrown sequence is among my favorites in the book. Essentially it’s the same so my complaints here are small at least on Bran’s end. One thing I love about the series is the beautiful locations, (eg. The Eyrie, Kings Landing, throneroom, forest, rivers, etc.), and Queenscrown always looked incredible in my mind. Many of the locations are characters in their own right. It probably doesn’t help that Michael Komarck painted this gorgeous rendering of the tower. So for it to be a barebones set kind of disappointed me. Otherwise, the sequence worked out perfectly. (If you can ignore the fact that pretty much anybody, ANYBODY, wouldn’t skip a chance to look in that tower. At least in the books there was the lake in between) Bran warging was awesome. Hodor was awesome. Summer was awesome.

    Jon Snow was a badass = awesome. Killing Orell, maybe not so much. I really liked Mackenzie Crook as Orell and I’m sad to see him go. Maybe they’ll cast someone else for Varamyr? I would have preferred they keep Orell alive. I did like the concept of the bird attack, but I agree it did look cheesy. Maybe just a quick dig at the eye like in the book might have worked a little better. Disappointed that we didn’t see Ygritte fire an arrow at Jon. I wonder if this means bigger changes later for Ygritte?

    Yunkai – wasn’t all that impressed with this. Grey Worm was cool. It was just ok for me. I’ve still got my fingers crossed for Strong Belwas before the battle for Mereen.

    Robb & Talisa – their relationship has been a highlight of the season for me. I love knowing that their relationship was loving and true, (Talisa is a spy haters eat it!), and Robb’s last days were happy with her. Props to Oona Chaplin for playing Talisa so well and making her a very believable woman worth breaking oaths for. Props to Richard Madden for making Robb Stark better than he was in the books. I’m ok with Talisa dying at the Red Wedding, (did it really make it that much worse?) I thought Lord Bolton’s regicide was a little too quick – I think some people might not even realize it was him.

    Blackfish – The Blackfish lives! Best piss ever! Looking forward to his Riverrun scenes in the future. Especially with Jamie.

    Catelyn – very well done by Michelle Fairley. I don’t know what more could have been asked of her – Catelyn’s insanity in the books may have been too difficult to understand or portray. I’m looking forward to Uncat – and I’d love for Uncat rising to be the finale for the season.

    Lord Walder – also very well done. Don’t mind the switch from Aegon the lackwit to Lord Walder’s wife. It actually makes his apathy for those closest to him all the more appalling and sad.

    Coldplay cameo – Coldplay drummer as, a drummer was cool. Would have preferred not to mentally tie one of my favorite bands to the most infamous scene in my favorite series. I was so overwhelmed by the scene that I didn’t even think to look and see if he also had a crossbow.

    The Red Wedding Overall- finally I can type that without a spoiler tag. I remember reading this 6(?) years ago or so and the gut wrenching feeling it was. This was the main reason I pushed so many friends to reading the books before watching the show. So much to think about… so many emotions – they made this normally even keeled 30 yr. old man cry. I actually think seeing it on screen first might be worse than reading it first but there’s no way to know that really. I think I might think that because you can feel it building up more in the book and in the episode tonight you first get amped up by the doors closing. I really don’t know what more I could say about all this. Brilliantly done by David Nutter & D&D.

    I’m looking forward to the new viewer’s posts both from Oz here and on a few other sites. I’ve been looking forward to that all year. Perhaps an additional comment or post from We Do Not Sow would be in order?

    Best comment I’ve seen so far tonight: “A Dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is considered a dull affair” LOL

    I may post more later once I get my mind wrapped around it.

  • afsdf:
    The RW makes Schindler’s List look like Scary movie…

    Please tell me that was a joke. Real people died in Schindler’s List seeing as it took place in the Holocaust, whereas the RW was all fiction. I swear you GoT fanboys don’t think sometimes…

  • From the moment the Rains of Castamere started…never had so many chills going down my spine … wonderfully done!!!

  • I have a funny feeling they are building up Daario Naharis to make him turn Dany against Ser Jorah.

  • I knew it was coming, but still, I think the last 10 minutes of the episode I had tears running down my face. That never even happened with Ned’s death. Bloody brilliant episode. Very well adapted for the screen

  • Hi guys, it sounds like you are happy with the scene overall. We worked very hard on it for 5 days so I’m glad we pulled it off. I haven’t seen the episode myself yet but seeing it live was quite an experience!

    Something that rarely happens to extras is that when we were done the cast and crew gave us a round of applause and the director thanked us for our hard work.

    I still can’t believe I got to be in this scene. It was amazing to be right in the middle of such an iconic scene. There were a few of us sitting on tables when they did the bit where the ‘Rains’ song starts and the door shuts. I got goosebumps sitting there knowing what was next. The scene has been with me since last October so it’s nice to finally have it out there for others to watch.

    BTW I was a fighting Frey on the table just behind Catlyn’s table

  • Loved the episode. The emotion was portrayed beautifully, it was just gut-wrenching. Well done, indeed.

    OberynBlackfyre,
    I don’t think they would ever consider not including Meereen . The road from Yunkai through the scorched and poisoned land, the slave children nailed to the mileposts pointing toward Meereen, Dany’s resolve, the desperation to end the siege quickly, and finding out about Jorah’s betrayal. This is when we get to see the true Targaryen rage in her, it’s too strong of a plot to leave out, however they decide to adapt it. Hopefully what they will change is the prolonged stagnation that happens afterwards.

  • Colby,

    Because I don’t really have anything to add about the Red Wedding other than “Jesus”, and I can’t sleep, I’ll take up your Rome v. GoT points (hopefully with a little more respect than some commenters upthread).

    The first season of Rome is fantastic. “HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME!”; “THIRTEEN!”; etc.. But the show loses a lot of steam when it realized it was going to end after the second season. While they managed to squeeze out a passable series finale, the compression of time and the need to maneuver characters quickly utterly destroyed any natural flow or development of the story – how many times did Pullo and Voirinius switch sides/camps over the course of the show? The decision to need to keep them directly involved in nearly every military campaign was understandable, but felt very forced. There’s still a lot to like about it. But it definitely falls into the tier of “also ran” prestige dramas (“The Shield”, “Boardwalk Empire”, “Damages”, etc.); whereas Game of Thrones is another season or two from joining the Big Four (if it’s not there already).

    BTW, Pullo’s counterpart is probably Bronn, not the Red Viper. At least in my mind

  • Michel,

    No, Brynden is definately not gay…he is a man of refined and discerning taste. Those particular ladies were not very attractive. As an aside, why is it that people today are always looking for the token gay character…yawn!

  • That was incredible! Can’t wait to see unsullied reactions. Everything was fantastic. The cast and crew really hit it out of the park with this one. Oh my God! When the music started!!!
    I loved Arya watching Grey Wind’s death and that last shot was amazing, how the camera angle didn’t change when first Cat killed mrs Frey and then Cat in turn was killed, both with slit throats.

  • An awesome 9th episode of the season (I’m still unable to formulate the rest of my impressions)! I believe it was Black Walder shutting the doors, not Lame Lothar, tho. :)

  • Shawn Simpson:
    Michel,

    No, Brynden is definately not gay…he is a man of refined and discerning taste. Those particular ladies were not very attractive. As an aside, why is it that people today are always looking for the token gay character…yawn!

    This is how I noticed it as well…Blackfish happened to look over and a bunch of homely women were checking him out and he was simply not interested.

  • The Purist: Please tell me that was a joke. Real people died in Schindler’s List seeing as it took place in the Holocaust, whereas the RW was all fiction. I swear you GoT fanboys don’t think sometimes…

    No real people did not die in “Schindler’s List”. Real people died in the events that the film depicts, that is true, but shouldn’t we be able to have an opinion on a film on its own merits regardless of whether it is fictional or not?

    As for something completely different: I think Roose Bolton deserves more love (for lack of a better word). He truly lived up to the House Trollton name. Maybe also Bateman (“Is that a chaincoat?” “YES IT IS! HEY ROBB!”).

  • Been reading through reactions, and I remember exactly what it felt like going through the Red Wedding for the first time many years ago. Smashed the book into a wall, raged, swore revenge, was all “fuck this shit, fuck you George, why would you do this!”

    Then went back to retrieve the book and continue reading, even while cussing…because I needed more.

    I fully understand the initial reaction, and wonder how many will truly never come back. My guess is, most won’t be able to help themselves. It’s the writing, it pulls you in, you can kick and scream, but once it’s got you, it’s got you.

  • I must say that Michelle Fairley looks really attractive, especially when she lets her hair down. I don’t think she gets enough credit for that.

    Overall, a good episode: The red wedding sequence was very good. It was particularly disturbing to see the women die: Talisa (and her unborn baby) was stabbed to death while poor Cat had her throat cut wide open. Even though I was never a big fan of the Talisa character, it was still sad to see her bleed to death like that.

    On a more positive note: I loved the scenes with Arya and the Hound. I really wish they had more screentime together. And the girl who played Roslin Frey (Alexandra Dowling), was really pretty. I hope we get to see more of her.

    I’d rate this episode a 9/10, which makes it one of the best episodes this season. The best episode is still probably Blackwater (10/10) from season 2.

  • Some of the different choices between the book and show Red Wedding I think weren’t only necessary for the visual medium, but necessary after the emotional tone of the season and previous episodes. We just had an episode with Sansa and Tyrion that played the drunk and awkward and uncomfortable wedding trope to the hilt, the RW couldn’t just be the same thing, it had to do something different. It also couldn’t just foreshadow doom and chaos the entire time, or the ending would just be melodramatic (and highly predictable for viewers who are used to reading visual and sound clues as to mood very quickly).

    The Starks fighting back more obviously would have again followed the traditional expected tragic end-story, but wouldn’t have gotten across the whole ‘fish in the barrel’ aspect to the horror (these were unarmed wedding guests).

    I think dividing the wedding into three emotional beats really worked. First the awkward, painful and humiliating enterance scene (everyone expects this, and once it’s over there is a brief ‘whew, that’s the worst part over’ feeling).

    Then a rare chance for the characters to relax, to smile, for Edmure to be thrilled with his good luck, for the Starks and Tullys who we have seen in grim extremis and battle mode for so long to just be people, people who love and enjoy eachother and laugh together, a functional family (unlike the Lannister wedding). This is very rare in the series as a whole so the soft candlelight and warm peace of it all was far more poignent in my mind than any other directing choice.

    Then the song, bedding, etc. the part where all of a sudden there is this offness which Catelyn starts to sense, but until Talisa is stabbed there is no way for her to read what it means. The odd moments of stillness, the Freys and Bolton stepping up awkwardly to deliver the final blows. This imo amplified the shock. It wasn’t only Cat and Robb who had no way to even process what was happening around them, but the Frey’s too had to know that they were breaking a major taboo, all the players, even Walder as I saw it (but probably not Roose) were a little stunned by what they had just done and were doing in the hall. It was chaos in the back but at the front it was pure cold blooded deliberate acts of individual horror.

  • Rimshot,

    I can’t imagine how exciting it was to be present for the filming much less to be part of the scene. Awesome job to all involved.

  • Fantastic episode, was really worried that it wouldn’t have the impact like in the book but they nailed it. Richard Madden completely hit it out of the park with one word “Mother’ and the look he gave her. That gave me chills.

    One nitpick was the way Greywind went out was underwhelming, it was hinted that Robb warged him after he was killed which they set up with the earlier Bran scene. I’m curious why it was changed, time or budget?

    I want to defend the review at Westeros a little. The complaint about the lack of Northern lords killed at the wedding is more about the upcoming seasons then this episode. I’d lump it in the same category as the complaints about the lack of prophecies and a certain “fever dream”. Not having them doesn’t hurt the episode airing now but it might have a major impact down the line.

  • Just saw it. I cried. I would have cried more except I was sitting by an Unsullied husband.

  • Maybe also Bateman (“Is that a chaincoat?” “YES IT IS! HEY ROBB!”).

    Ok, this made me laugh. Thanks, I needed that.

    From now on, I will picture Roose Bolton dancing to Huey Lewis and The News. Maybe that will make him less scary.

    I think many viewers are under the impression that Bolton is merely greedy and shallow, and trying to gain favor with the Lannisters. They are building up his character slowly on the show, but I assume that in a season or two he will be revealed as a villain so detestable that he makes Joffrey look like a basket of kittens in comparison.

  • Shawn Simpson:
    No, Brynden is definately not gay…he is a man of refined and discerning taste. Those particular ladies were not very attractive.

    What makes you say that? He may very well be gay. At the very least there is no way for us to objectively say that he “definitely not gay,” because he might be. It was potentially hinted at the in the books, by his refusal to marry.

  • Monsterfurby: No real people did not die in “Schindler’s List”. Real people died in the events that the film depicts, that is true, but shouldn’t we be able to have an opinion on a film on its own merits regardless of whether it is fictional or not?

    You missed the point, making light of the holocaust that the film depicts is dumb. It makes “Schindler’s List look like Scary movie”? I mean really, I’m not saying you can’t like GoT more than Schindler’s List, but can the GoT fanboys stop embarrassing yourselves saying such ridiculous things and trivializing the atrocities that were depicted in the movie? Sorry, but even the most harden GoT fanboy got to admit that because Schindler’s List was based on true events, the majority will be more emotional than any fictional story, unless you can’t tell fiction from reality.

    Seonaidh Ceanneidigh: “The Purist”

    “GoT fanboys”

    Well, lol.

    Glad I make you laugh. People need to do that more. I’m a fan of the books and GRRM, not the show, well not a fan after season one anyway and the terrible duo who butchered the show. GoT fanboys are those who worships D&D, even if the two were no-talent hacks that were nobodies before GoT and can’t handle any criticism towards the show. Just want to make that clear for you if there’s any confusion.

  • Awesome episode all around. If I had to nitpick there were three scenes that felt jarring to me:

    – Bird!Orell attacking Jon. I know what they were trying to do but that was just cheesy.
    – Bolton sort of walking up from the side, stabbing Robb and walking out was kind of awkward and not in a good way. I think they should’ve used a different camera angle for this, perhaps Robb’s POV. (Also, I think the little spurt of blood wasn’t the best idea either, but I never saw anyone got stabbed so perhaps blood really does spurt like that…)
    – Cat’s scream. It wasn’t the scream itself and definitely not the acting, but the editing was so obvious made it kind of cheesy and awkward by the last shot. I think they either shouldn’t have dragged it out like that, or they should’ve shot the scene differently. I would’ve used one shot of Cat screaming and killing the girl, one shot of Walder Frey not being impressed, and one shot of Cat after the deed, as a Frey soldier walks up to her and slits her throat.

    But other than these it was an absolutely fantastic episode, awesome acting, awesome writing, awesome directing, awesome pacing. Purists and whiners can complain all they want, this was simply awesome television.

    Reading some interviews, it seems Michelle Fairley is finished with GOT after this… Some people are sure that she’s just trying not to spoil ZombieCat, but some of the things she says (she knew for how long she’d been contracted, saying goodbye, etc.) seem to imply that she’s really done and ZombieCat will be cut. If that’s the case, then honestly, I’m relieved. ZombieCat always seemed forced and ridiculous in the books, it seems to me that GRRM just did it as a cheap shocker.

  • Chris:
    I’m with some of the “whiny” book readers who thought the Red Wedding should be more noise and turmoil and CHAOS. Robb and Cat’s deaths were such quiet, slow moving, developments. Even as the scene played out in near silence for the audience, which was appropriate and riveting, we should have SEEN all the fighting going on between the Tully/Stark people and the Frey/Bolton forces and SEEN the drums pounding. Instead it was almost like watching someone go down a shopping list“Okay, and now Bolton steps in and stabs Robb.Okay, and now Cat kills her hostage.Okay, and now one of the Freys comes and kills Cat.”
    It was a little awkward.Ultimately compelling, but awkward.

    This. They really should have kept the drums in. Silence for the credits was a good choice, but the final scene felt off with both Roose and the Frey that slits Cat’s throat quickly moving away from the camera afterward and the final image being a wall with a brazier. I was hoping for the cut to black to follow Arya being knocked out by the Hound, or a long shot of the Twins in the rain with the camps burning. The build up to the massacre, particularly the closing of the doors and the Rains of Castamere starting, were brilliant, along with every scene with Robb and Cat in the episode *except* for their deaths. Talisa’s felt like it was given more weight than both. I wish they would have treated Roose’s kingslaying with more significance, rather than having him sidestep up to Robb, stab him “off camera” while casually delivering a weaker version of his iconic line, and step away. It felt like an afterthought, in part because they already confirmed his betrayal with the mail reveal (which was great even so), when it should have felt like the true climax moment of the episode.

    Still, amazing episode. Definitely in the top 3 of the season, which has been similarly strong, with Kissed by Fire and Now His Watch is Ended. Probably better than both. I knew if they could recreate the sickening feeling in your stomach then they would have did justice to the red wedding, and they accomplished that easily when the doors closed on the hall.

  • The Purist: You missed the point, making light of the holocaust that the film depicts is dumb. It makes “Schindler’s List look like Scary movie”?I mean really, I’m not saying you can’t like GoT more than Schindler’s List, but can the GoT fanboys stop embarrassing yourselves saying such ridiculous things and trivializing the atrocities that were depicted in the movie? Sorry, but even the most harden GoT fanboy got to admit that because Schindler’s List was based on true events, the majority will be more emotional than any fictional story, unless you can’t tell fiction from reality.

    I get your point and I agree to an extent. Yeah, it’s fine being engaged in fiction and feeling with the characters, but once you put it into contrast with real events the difference in how much people care can be a bit jarring. Still, I think the comment about making Schindler’s List look like Scary Movie was humorous in nature rather than a serious opinion – more like a “This makes look like ” placeholder rather than any relation to the actual movies named. Could have used a less potentially offensive example, maybe.

  • The Purist:
    Glad I make you laugh. People need to do that more. I’m a fan of the books and GRRM, not the show, well not a fan after season one anyway and the terrible duo who butchered the show. GoT fanboys are those who worships D&D, even if the two were no-talent hacks that were nobodies before GoT and can’t handle any criticism towards the show. Just want to make that clear for you if there’s any confusion.

    Honestly, you are just a very unpleasant person. I could call you a cunt, or various other insults but as far as I’m concerned unpleasant is the most insulting thing I can say, because it’s the truth. Why on earth you feel the need to come on here and say things with little intent other than to wind people up is absolutely lost on me. This is a website about the show, if you honestly think the show has been butchered beyond recognition then cease watching or talk about it somewhere else.

  • POSSIBLE EP.10 SPOILER (EVEN FOR READERS!)
    In the preview of episode 10 you can clearly see Jaime (0:27)standing indoors, right beside a door actually, and that door looks like the ones in King’s Landing. Specifically, if you compare it with the doors to Tywin’s office/bedchamber (see EP.3) they could be the same door. Has Jaime’s arrival been moved forward? Check it out!

  • Valdred Dethstorm: Nah, you’re not the only one.
    Sometimes I agree with some points Elio makes, but this time he really turned into Maximum Whiner.

    I quit reading about the HBO show over there a long time ago. Almost every post is complaining/mean/bitter/hateful and that’s just no fun. ***bbbrrraaakkkk*. Forget them. I want to ENJOY the show – not rip it apart.

    Thank goodness for WIC!!!

  • Rhys: Honestly, you are just a very unpleasant person. I could call you a cunt, or various other insults but as far as I’m concerned unpleasant is the most insulting thing I can say, because it’s the truth. Why on earth you feel the need to come on here and say things with little intent other than to wind people up is absolutely lost on me. This is a website about the show, if you honestly think the show has been butchered beyond recognition then cease watching or talk about it somewhere else.

    I know you want to call me a “cunt” because not liking the show is the worst thing anyone can possibly do in your eyes. LOL. Last I checked that this website also have news on the books and GRRM is also writing the show, so there’s something I look forward to. Who are you to say I shouldn’t be at this website? I don’t expect people to agree with my opinions but it’s my own opinion. I don’t tell you shouldn’t dislike something. You’re just butthurt because I don’t worship D&D like you do. Anyway, I’m off to watch that scene where Ros dies again.

  • Knew what was coming. Started crying when Bran and Rickon split up. Didn’t stop until it was over. The way everyone just sat around and watched as their King was murdered… it was chilling.

    Someone on Tumblr has suggested that Robb likely warged into Grey Wind. The last thing he saw was Arya. I don’t know if that is comforting or makes me want to go lie down in a dark room.

    Excellent episode. The North Remembers.

  • WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    At this point and with all the hints G.R.R had left us, one cannot be sure about anything regarding Ned doing the smart thing or not. As far as the most solid theory goes, Ned did the only thing he could do.

  • The Purist: Anyway, I’m off to watch that scene where Ros dies again.

    This doesn’t sound familiar at all…
    Time to move on, love, if you’re still hooked up on that character.

  • Viola: This doesn’t sound familiar at all…
    Time to move on, love, if you’re still hooked up on that character.

    I know I should move on, but I can’t… it’s the most worth while thing that the terrible duo ever did with the character. ARGH!!! Watching that scene is like a drug!

  • The Purist: I know I should move on, but I can’t… it’s the most worth while thing that the terrible duo ever did with the character. ARGH!!! Watching that scene is like a drug!

    Seek therapy.

  • Snark: Seek therapy.

    Why I need therapy? Just because I put pages from the books, don’t worry I have at least five copies of each book, in a blender and then inject them in my veins. That’s normal. It’s totally normal!!! Come on, just give me a few dollars, I need ANOTHER HIT!!!

  • Haven’t watched the episode yet although I am a reader. I am seriously considering filming my boyfriend’s reaction with my cellphone tonight.

  • What an amazing episode!!! It was so heartbreaking, even though I’ve read the books and knew what was going to happen David Nutter, David Benioff & D. B. Weiss made an excellent job, the Red Wedding in series put down the Red Wedding of book. Also, Michelle Fairley is an outstanding actress, her monologue was incredible, she managed to give a sense on this scene that in books I didn’t find.
    RIP Robb. RIP Catelyn

  • mimi,

    Elio’s review is pretty spot on, but it probably flies over the heads of most people, viewers and book readers alike…his review for this past episode is not so much a review of the episode itself, but a critique of the approach D&D have taken in their adaptation of the books across the board…

    a big reason why some of us do not see D&D as the greatest thing since sliced bread simply b/c they have brought ASOIAF to the screen, and done a reasonably good job with it, is because they lack the boldness and the ambition that GRRM has shown in writing the books…it’s a subtle thing, and most people won’t notice it even if it’s pointed out to them…obviously there are other factors at play, and I will say that D&D would potentially be responsible for losing a lot of money if their approach failed, so I can see why they have to be cautious to some degree…

    that being said, Elio is exactly right, and those of you passing off his critiques as simply the dissatisfied rants of a book purist are both missing his point, and probably not capable of understanding it to begin with…the bold choice to end this past episode would have been ending it w/ Arya taking the Hound’s axe to the back of the head, leaving viewers w/ the impression that she also was a casualty of the Red Wedding, only to reveal her still being alive next episode…it seems like the moments that arise when D&D can really go for it, and by that I mean taking television to a truly different level, they default to what is easy and “safe” and what you would typically expect to see happen on television…

  • so i re-watched the entire episode. so good.

    random thoughts:

    gill calling sam a wizard was really cute ;p greyworm fuckin owns. bran scenes were well done too – the kid who plays rickon might be overacting a bit but he’s ok.

    and i really like TV daario. i remember him as such a douchebag from the books and for whatever reason i imagined him as a jamaican kinda guy with dreadlocks and shit ;p TV jojen and meera are very likeable too, i really didn’t care about them in the books.

    more on RW: robb’s death scene – gotta agree with some of you guys, roose moving out of the shot was just weird and cat’s scream seems edited. and damn, i’m still angry they lost the actor who played umber greatjon – would be so much better with recognizible lord dying. oh well. talisa kinda of made up for that.

  • By the way, to those who complain about “The Lannisters send their regards” – I don’t see how this is weaker than “Jamie Lannister sends his regards.” The latter would’ve made no sense here. In the show Bolton’s line served as 1) the final proof that Tywin was behind the whole thing (remember, non-readers don’t have a knee-jerk reaction to the song), and 2) a reveal to ROBB (not Cat) that Bolton betrayed him and is now sailing on the Lannister ship. It’s a short, simple sentence that speaks volumes.

    “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” doesn’t involve Tywin, and it takes more thinking to realize what it means with regards to Bolton. It would’ve been just confusing and distracting, viewers wouldn’t understand what Jaime had to do with the whole thing, which would’ve lessened the impact of the scene.

    All in all, it was a wise decision that they decided not to use the line from the book.

  • Hawk,

    I agree, hawk with what you mention regarding Elio’s review. GoT fanboys/D&D worshipers are so insecure when a little bit of criticism towards the show, it’s almost laughable at how they fume.


  • barak,

    I was wondering this too. Both Fairley and Madden have talked about it being Fairleys last day on set. I can’t see them cutting her, but maybe they have her with a large hood on and have someone else playing her?

  • Hawk,

    If there was a Talisa in the books, and not in the show your response to her death would be:

    “GRRM had the boldness and audacity to show something truly horrific — a pregnant woman being stabbed! No one does anything like that, it’s very subtle so only really intelligent people like me and Elio can really comprehend its significance.”

    No one considers Benioff and Weiss to be the image of perfection. No one. But they have a made an unbelievably good adaptation and made a show widely acclaimed by critics and by viewers. Here: http://www.imdb.com/search/title?num_votes=5000,&sort=user_rating,desc&title_type=tv_series&ref_=nb_tv_3_srs

    The highest rated non-documentary of all time. Up there with Breaking Bad and The Wire.

    You (nor I) can be objective about this programme. You can say “no, no, I’m not a book purist I just think the changes fail stylistically” but no. You have so much confirmation bias that you can’t even see past it. There are millions of intelligent people out there who are creationists, because their confirmation bias ignores the evidence to the contrary, but they don’t know how stupid they seem to the rest of us, or how blindingly obvious their conformation bias seems to us.

  • The Purist:
    Hawk,
    I agree, hawk with what you mention regarding Elio’s review. GoT fanboys/D&D worshipers are so insecure when a little bit of criticism towards the show, it’s almost laughable at how they fume.

    Both sides tend to sit on horses so high they need oxygen masks to breathe.

    Blessed are those who can enjoy the books as one of the best written fantasy series and the show as one of the best thing on the air right now without trying to have apples compete with oranges.

    I think some people just have a need to define themselves by their opposition to one or the other, either by blindly wailing on everyone who points out flaws in the show or by blindly moaning about the show itself. I don’t have to mention that this kind of behvaior is utterly moronic, I think.

  • Hounded,

    They slipped it in where the Blackfish had to leave to take a piss before the doors were closed. So I’m pretty sure we will see him escape. I was worried too. Until I noticed this on the second viewing.

    I too hope we follow Osha and Rickon a little.

    With Talisa dying that pretty much voids any Jeyne is secretly pregnant theory.

  • Rhys,

    I doubt that we would be praising GRRM on Talisa is she was written as terribly as D&D did with her fairytale love story with Robb. Using IMDB ratings to judge if a show is good or not? Why don’t you judge shows on Metacritic ratings as well? Talk about desperate…

    Monsterfurby,
    I’m just using my experience as an example, I don’t mind when people like the show, they are feel to do so. But as soon as I mention anything critical of the show, the knives are out from the fanboys, even as far as almost calling me a “cunt”. Well, someone already did that a few months ago.

  • The Purist:
    Hawk,

    I agree, hawk with what you mention regarding Elio’s review. GoT fanboys/D&D worshipers are so insecure when a little bit of criticism towards the show, it’s almost laughable at how they fume.

    Yes, “little bit of criticism”. That sounds about right.

    “Unnecessary changes from the books like her and Ros needs to disappear. All the rest is poorly done, especially that cheesy bird. OMG! I think it would have been better if Big Bird attacked Jon.”

    The entire thing was poorly done, which is probably why 91% of people on here rated it 5/5. But I guess 91% of people just like to lick Benioff and Weiss’s asses, then? I mean, there is no other explanation.

  • Wow. I knew it was coming but it still didn’t help stop the tears.
    They did such a great job translating the scene from book to screen. It was heartwrenching to watch. Michelle Fairley sold it – her anguish was so vivid. I am I glad they decided on having utter silence during the credits – a wise choice.

    Beyond the Red Wedding, I enjoyed the other scenes, though they were clearly over shadowed by the sucker punch at the end there. The scenes between Arya and the Hound are delightful – great chemistry between the actors. The parting scene between Bran and Rickon was sad, but I agree with another commentor that the young actor playing Rickon feels out of place – the other children actors seem much more capable. But still, he is very young, so it is not surprising.

    In closing, I’ll leave this here: http://24.media.tumblr.com/1a8dc59903431fe03b63a40ae7a1ba73/tumblr_mnsq6apRYB1qgajkbo1_400.gif

  • The Purist:
    Rhys,
    I doubt that we would be praising GRRM on Talisa is she was written as terribly as D&D did with her fairytale love story with Robb. Using IMDB ratings to judge if a show is good or not? Why don’t you judge shows on Metacritic ratings as well? Talk about desperate…

    People are praising the Griff/Aegon storyline, Zombie Cat and many other really jarring and frankly not very good storytelling decisions. Your mileage may vary, but remember that there is no objective way of measuring something as subjective as the quality of any work of art.

  • kelly: Rimshot, I can’t imagine how exciting it was to be present for the filming much less to be part of the scene. Awesome job to all involved.

    Thanks Kelly. It was amazing. Our table group really bonded and we had great fun. At one point we had a chick pea flicking contest! The set was unbelievable. Loads of things that you wouldn’t see on screen like the detail on the cutlery etc. Although it did get a bit smelly when props threw a load of bones and food all over the floor. The candles were very expensive so one poor guy had the job of putting them out after every take then lighting them again to the call of ‘Flambo!’ Also I had no idea the drummer was Will Champion until after the shoot. Great times.

  • barak:

    seem to imply that she’s really done and ZombieCat will be cut. If that’s the case, then honestly, I’m relieved. ZombieCat always seemed forced and ridiculous in the books, it seems to me that GRRM just did it as a cheap shocker.

    what??? no! wtf, just no. i love zombieCat. if they cut her i’ll be sooooo pissed. i’d preffer fairley to play her but they can have someone else take the part. especially since they replaced the original badass mountain with some broomstick guy.

  • Hawk,

    I feel GRRM has abused the cliff hanger “Is the character dead?” tactic to the point it’s lost its punch. He did a great job setting up a story where it appears no one is safe, then ruined it by letting the characters end up safe the vast majority of the time. ADwD suffered I feel because of this.

  • the show did really well on this, i can only imagine what it would be like to be unsullied at this point. ‘The Rains of Castamere’ playing was awesome. Couple of problems with it though, i reckon there should’ve been more music to it (either from the band or from the show) and also when roose delivers his line, i imagined him walking up to him, with a giant longsword, delivering his line and then stabbing him through the heart. That line seemed a bit rushed, but other than that, really good

  • Rhys,

    LOL. So butthurt coming from D&D boot polisher The actresses were fine, it’s really more the writers that let them down. Talisa being a commoner and marrying a king, something GRRM thinks is a cliche. While Ros was nothing but a sexposition machine. D&D tried to do something different in S2, but nothing that memorable and if she was the one that refuse to do nude scenes, well, I guess why D&D killed her off, but I won’t lose sleep cause Ros died.

    I didn’t find this episode the greatest thing ever like you people because of poor handling of Robb and Catelyn after season one, it really diminish my enthusiasm for the RW. I agree with some of the people here that the editing and pacing were off. While the fighting with Jon and the Wildlings was good, but it ended laughably bad with that cheesy bird. I don’t how can people can defend that. I already forgot about Dany’s scenes. As far as episode nine goes, this episode was weaker than Blackwater and Baelor, imo. But you’re ready to dismiss everything I mentioned before I started because you’re a big GoT fanboy. What is it you’re using this time, IMDB or poll at some website? Geez, talk about fanboy.

  • Monsterfurby

    Blessed are those who can enjoy the books as one of the best written fantasy series and the show as one of the best thing on the air right now without trying to have apples compete with oranges.

    Well-said!

    Perhaps we can agree on something: Michael McElhatton’s performance as Roose. The look that he gives Catelyn when she discovers his chain mail. So perfect!

  • The Purist,
    Look man if you dobt like the show or want to be critical that’s fine. I get it. There are aspects of the show I don’t like either and sometimes I agree with purists. The thing is, you’re just an insufferable cunt about it. Youre incredibly petty and quick to play the victim card. Instead of sitting back an objectively looking at your own posts like someone who is mature you just spout about how everyone else is a fanboy. Its blame others all the time for you. You can be critical all you want, and it will undoubedly turn some people off as this is a website primarily for the show, but the reason you in particular get so much vitriol and hate directed your way is not your opinion per se, but your immature and petty delivery. Youre just incredibly unpleasant.

  • Theon’s Missing Junk,
    barak,

    You’re all bullies, always picking on me!!! Go ahead, I grow up being picked on from school, I can handle you people. Go ahead, tie me up and use those whips over there, I dare you to!!! Come Theon’s MIssing Junk, I got your junk right here!!!

  • Joh: Was anybody else incredibly happy about Gilly calling Sam a wizard? No? Just me?
    He always wanted to be a wizard.

    There’s nothing better in the world than the person you’re in luv with telling you that you’re the wizard that you always wanted to be.

  • Andy: I can’t wait to hear what Oz thought of it.

    Me too. I hope Oz and Ozette are OK after last night’s viewing. It was bad enough to experience that scene in the books, I can’t imagine being an unsullied and watching it. My best wishes go out to all the unsullieds.

  • I’ve watched it 3 times… still heart.breaking… and horribly fascinating..

  • Theon’s Missing Junk,

    Nah, I only troll those who can’t handle criticism and get all defensive towards the show. Their reactions are just as fun as watching their reactions to the end of Baelor or tonight’s episode. Did you find your junk yet?

  • fuelpagan,

    I agree completely with this…for me the biggest problem w/ the last two books is that they don’t feel like complete books in and of themselves…basically you are reading a chunk of a story that just comes to an end w/ cliffhangers, instead of natural stopping points for the characters like you get at the end of ASOS…however, GRRM is also in the fattest part of the story w/ the last two books, and I can see how he’s struggled to make each one of them a book that can stand on its own…

  • The Red Wedding got me to read the books; I had bought the books awhile before season one. After watching season 1, I started A Game of Thrones but it quickly slipped from the top of my priorities. After season 2, I was googling the Rains of Castamere and of course came across the massive spoilers of Robb and Catelyn’s murders. I decided to read until i was spoiler free again and was just completely hooked. My amount per week has varied wildly but between Season 2 and now; there hasn’t been a week where I haven’t read some of the books. Now I’m on A Dance with Dragons and an avid fan of book and show. Not the most interesting story but one I fancied sharing.

  • Monsterfurby,

    Umm, Aegon/Young Griff has been foreshadowed since book 1, and GRRM said that Beric’s resurrections and Uncat are foreshadowing for something coming up, so they will make sense in hindsight.

  • More than anything, I am looking forward to reading the unsullied recap. Especially after his predictions from the other day. That is, of course, if he has not decided to step away from the series for a week or so like many of us did after reading the red wedding sequence in the book.

  • wow and wow, just an unbelievable episdode and the red wedding was everything I pictured while reading the book! Michelle’s performance blew me away, if she doesnt win some kind of award for that Im quitting life! I still hope we see the switching of the heads next week but other than that I was immensely impressed and satisfied once again!

  • I don’t understand people being excited for RobbWind. That is so upsetting. :(

  • I have never felt this sick to my stomach as I did last night….this feeling is still with me this morning. Cruel doesn’t begin to describe it. The author is a sick twisted man who only sees the bad in everything and who doesn’t know the word hope. I watch and read books to escape from life not to be kicked in the mouth by a horse while at the same time being punched in the gut at the sametime. I was once incredibly and deeply in love with the world he created. Now my love for the series is ended. Why would I involve myself again emotionally only to have the author do this again? I’d have to see Tyson, frays, Bolton meet there demised 10fold for me to even be somewhat satisfied but we all know that will never happen. F YOU MR MARTIN!!!!!

  • jkb:
    damn, i’m still angry they lost the actor who played umber greatjon – would be so much better with recognizible lord dying. oh well. talisa kinda of made up for that.

    The Greatjon doesn’t die in the book — he’s subdued and eventually held prisoner at the Twins. Just saying.

    Also, for those asking about Michelle Fairley (for you book readers), here’s what she says at Huffington Post:

    People who’ve read the books tell me there’s a chance you could reprise your role at some point in the future. Any truth to that?
    I think you’re just going to have to keep watching and find out.

  • Some really great moments – Jon making his decision (and subtly saving Ygritte by pushing her out of the way before she could throw in with him and get herself killed), Bran’s powers, Rickon/Bran’s sad farewell (and Rickon getting lines!), Jorah realizing he’s been completely friendzoned…. and hardly any of that will be remembered.

    I thought having read the scene multiple times over several years would soften the blow. It didn’t.

  • I thought the Red Wedding was nearly as gut-wrenching on screen as it was on the page. Very well done. I thought Catelyn was about to completely flip and start shredding her own face, but thankfully… they left that bit out and just ended it. I could do without seeing Grey Wind’s head sewn onto Robb’s body.

    I can’t wait for the final episode.

  • to me at least,
    the Grey Wind / Robb head swap was powerful in the books because of Dany’s foreshadowing vision – which was not present in the show – where she saw a very sad wolf-headed king sitting at a dinner table or something, and I remember being impressed by this image and wondering what the heck it could mean, until finally it turned out that it was actually a very literal vision instead of some abstract symbol, and that blew my mind. So I think, adding it to the show without the vision, especially after the RW is already done, would not make too much sense.

  • The Red Wedding left me sad, without a doubt.
    But I don’t want the season to end, nooooooo!
    Only one more episode :’C

  • pntrlqst:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYm7z9_I0uE

    Larry Williams (OtakuAssemble), in all his analytical glory, calls the Red Wedding “lame” because no Lannisters were present. Bow down!

    And then announces he will no longer be reviewing GoT after next week.

    As someone who has watched all of his reviews; it’s no great loss tbh. As time went by you could see that he just can’t handle it when a show doesn’t adhere to his idea of what should and shouldn’t happen, therefore, an unpredictable show like GOT really isn’t for him. imho of course.

  • Looking ahead to Curtain Calls, I’ll put my name down as an Oona Chaplin fan. She didn’t get a lot of fascinating material, but that one Volantis monologue that sent Robb right over the edge into violent love was VERY well delivered. And her initial appearances, where she played out the classic ‘she challenges you! now you love her!’ trope were subtle enough to make it work.

  • Pretty slick leading off with Talisa getting stabbed in the belly. That was a big, original, unknown shock even for book readers, which meant the whole audience then was in “holy crap” mode. Bit of psychological manipulation that worked out very well.

  • I don’t get HBO(I always have to wait for the DVD), and I heard a rumor that Catelyn killed Walder Frey’s young wife(instead of his Grandson)before catelyn’s throat was cut. If so, that was total payback! I can’t hardly wait until the DVD comes out, hopefully early! In the books this scene blew me away! It sounds as if it was done spot on.

  • Shan,

    I think you describe a caricature of Ned and not the actual Ned presented.

    The Ned presented is honorable to a fault, but not as extreme as you indicate. We know of a few major lapses in honor for him.

    A) he either fathered a bastard or B) lied to his wife and his king about Jon’s true birth

    We also see Ned break his honor by giving a false confession.

    Both of these lapses in honor have the common thread of doing so to protect members of his family, so no, I don’t think Ned would have brought the Mad King his father’s head. In fact, everything we know about Eddard is that the safety of his family is the chief motivator for him breaking his honor.

  • Everyone is waiting for the Unsullied recap :). It might take a while to get it together after an episode like that.

  • I must admit I am a morbid reader and I looked forward to last night’s episode mostly for the “What the holy hell?!” reactions from non-readers. I am a bad, bad person.

    That said, I am a little annoyed at the comments saying they should’ve focused more on the Robb storyline. No. The fact that the wedding got only as much focus as any other arc in the episode was perfect. That way it doesn’t seem like anything special is going on and then – BAM! Yeah. I liked that.

  • she don’t speak, but she remembers….

    People who’ve read the books tell me there’s a chance you (Michelle Fairley) could reprise your role at some point in the future. Any truth to that?
    I think you’re just going to have to keep watching and find out.

  • I don’t like that they dropped the bond Robb and Grey Wind had but I’m happy they didn’t put too much focus on the Wedding. For me the book made it too obvious that something bad was going to happen.

  • Wonderful post Monsterfurby.

    Monsterfurby: Both sides tend to sit on horses so high they need oxygen masks to breathe.

    Blessed are those who can enjoy the books as one of the best written fantasy series and the show as one of the best thing on the air right now without trying to have apples compete with oranges.

    I think some people just have a need to define themselves by their opposition to one or the other, either by blindly wailing on everyone who points out flaws in the show or by blindly moaning about the show itself. I don’t have to mention that this kind of behvaior is utterly moronic, I think.

  • I thought they were going to rush the red wedding but it was very well done. I even got a feel for the bannermen too who I thought were sadly lacking throughout season 3. Though most of them are dead now.
    One question though. Is Orell in the eagle now? Can’t recall from the books.

  • So, we have four curtain calls coming up this week:
    1) Mackenzie Crook – Orell
    2) Oona Chaplin – Talisa Maegyr (I can’t say I was overly fond of Talisa, but Oona was brilliant)
    3) Richard Madden – Robb Stark
    4) Michelle Fairley – Catelyn Tully/Stark

    And we never got a curtain call for John Stahl (Rickard Karstark)…

  • Stephen Bosco:
    I thought they were going to rush the red wedding but it was very well done. I even got a feel for the bannermen too who I thought were sadly lacking throughout season 3. Though most of them are dead now.
    One question though. Is Orell in the eagle now? Can’t recall from the books.

    Possibly. They might have merged Orell with Varymyr.

    By the way, can anyone explain what happened with the Yunkai bit? Jorah, Daario and Grey Worm were completely surrounded and then they came back?

  • Again, apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I seriously can not go through all the comments.

    How is Coldhands not a major character in the books? Of course he is no Dany or Jon but would Bran&co be able to make it to the 3-eyed raven without him? And even before that would Sam still be alive? So, perhaps not “major” but still pretty important!

    I am not getting you people!

    So, I thought the episode was great. I am also sullied and have read the books twice (up to now). The books are great, the TV adaptation is great, and we always have to think about it from a non-reader POV. Because that’s what it’s there for, us readers are just having things we already know televised. There will be changes, let’s not take it personally unless they REALLY destroy something from the story. Like say if next season Dany returns to Westeros with 3 dragons owning everything and everyone. That would be a bummer, leaving the hair line out or even Greatjon or GW’s fight not as much. Thanks.

  • LordStarkington:
    0.

    I thought having read the scene multiple times over several years would soften the blow. It didn’t.

    you’re right, It really didn’t. I literally felt sick last night, and just woke up with tears in my eyes again!

  • I watched the episode with 5 Unsullied and it was glorious. Their reactions were a mix of shock, pure terror and disbelief. I had so much adrenaline surging during the entire episode dreading the end…and that music…when it started playing my stomach twisted.

    It looks like twitter exploded with a lot of “I’ll never watch this show again”. Guess the episode pulled it off then.

  • Rhys,

    It has to be assumed that they fought their way through the guards, made it to the gate, and opened it.

  • They did it. They actually did it. And it was a punch in the gut, just like chapter 51 of ASOS. Congrats D&D for this.

  • I said a while back i see Coldhands coming into S4 once Bran goes beyond the wall. Maybe the plan is for the next book to be out by then with readers finding out who he is?

  • Our Hodors Are Sharp:
    jkb,

    Every troll and their grandmothers already spoiled the RW since 2 years ago, it’s lost most of its impact now. Still, I will say that Talisa’s death was rather brutal, never liked the character but it was rather nasty of them to repeatedly stab her in the belly like that.

    On another note, I did like Ninja Bolton who can turn a slap into momentum for a dash.

    Nearly every UnSullied I know wasn’t spoiled.

  • The Pointy End:
    How is Coldhands not a major character in the books? Of course he is no Dany or Jon but would Bran&co be able to make it to the 3-eyed raven without him? And even before that would Sam still be alive?

    This is true. I suppose Bran and co. could just find him without Sam directing them to him?

  • Perhaps it’s time to hear from one of the actual people who was involved in everything we just saw. Here is an interview Richard Madden gave last Friday in anticipation of what was coming:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-robb-stark_n_3368224.html?utm_hp_ref=maureen-ryan

    It is alright to have a differing opinion or not like what you have seen, but at least have some class and show some respect for the people who actually work on this show, often long hours in gruelling conditions, so that the rest of us can have something to enjoy, or not each Sunday night. If anything, read what Richard Madden has to say and what it means to them being involved with the show.

    And if you still choose to be just another troll or parasite who comes on here to berate other fans, rile people up and be generally unpleasant, well what other better posters than me as well as Bronn said applies: there is no cure for being a cunt.

  • OberynBlackfyre,

    pretty simple IMO, we know from the books that the Blackfish is a pretty damn good escape artist, so its most likely he escaped and made his way back to riverun and holds it in Robbs name just like the books

  • A new genre of book and TV storytelling has been invented – murder porn!

    I do enjoy a spot of fictional murder if it’s well done and serves the narrative purpose – I loved Sopranos and Six Feet Under.

    But Game of Thrones/ASOIAF is different. It’s just murder for the sake of murder, fake blood for the sake of fake blood. A higher narrative purpose does not seem to exist. What is the overall message? What are the guiding ideas? There seems to be only one – “people are bad, they will betray you.” And that’s it. It’s a one-note song, and that one note is something that’s obvious to any bright 13-year-old.

    This book series, and this TV show, is the storytelling equivalent of sugar. It gives you an intense high, but the nutritional value is zero. It’s nothing more than a trashy, slutty soap opera which has now devolved into its very own genre (murder porn). It operates on creating one shock after another, manipulating the viewer’s mind into experiencing one squirt of adrenaline after another. But when the adrenaline effect wears off, there’s nothing beneath it.

  • WOW.

    Okay, honestly, nothing – neither show nor reread – will ever compare to the first time I read the Red Wedding. But that said, HBO managed to fill me with such anxiety that I was literally on the edge of my seat. That moment where the doors close and the musicians start to play The Rains of Castamere was more intense than anything I’ve seen in any horror/thriller. I could feel my chest tightening. All the past uses of Rains of Castamere were no doubt inserted for that moment. To have the “don’t mess with the Lannisters” leitmotif start playing at a wedding for anyone other than the Lannisters is not a good sign.

    I’m thankful for the changes they made when adapting. It gave readers a bit of a surprise, which we don’t get often. Talisa’s death was particularly brutal. Grey Wind’s was outright depressing (watching his eyes close beneath the gate?!). Cat killing Frey’s wife was a smart change, and it I think more so than Jinglebell, it exemplified how disgusting Walder Frey is. They did a great job making him a massive creep and misogynist. His “I’ll get another one,” comment was the icing on the cake.

    I don’t want to say whether the book/TV version of Cat’s reaction is better, as I see them as two sides of the same coin. I love how Fairley played it though: that visceral scream followed by a complete shut down of every sense in the body. In that moment she was truly a woman with nothing left to live for, and her death actually felt like a release from the entire scene.

    I can’t praise Fairley enough. I think most of our emotions were guided by her performance in that scene. Just as we see the Wedding through Cat’s eyes in the book, I think it is Cat that gives us all the clues in the show. And I could not have asked for a finer actor to have that power.

    The one thing I would have liked to see that wasn’t there: Mormont/Umber/Manderly. I’ve noted this exclusion before so won’t get into it here.

    What’s going to happen with the Blackfish?!

    Dany’s scenes were cool. The action was great, and I like that they’ve gone with an instant attraction between Dany and Daario. Queenscrown was also well-done. Bran warging Hodor was creepy, but the real standout moment there was Rickon. Finally Art Parkinson gets a real scene, and he nailed it.

    Finally, watching non-readers’ reactions has given me so much sick joy.

  • Icebird:

    Robb & Talisa – their relationship has been a highlight of the season for me.I love knowing that their relationship was loving and true, (Talisa is a spy haters eat it!), and Robb’s last days were happy with her.Props to Oona Chaplin for playing Talisa so well and making her a very believable woman worth breaking oaths for.Props to Richard Madden for making Robb Stark better than he was in the books.I’m ok with Talisa dying at the Red Wedding, (did it really make it that much worse?) I thought Lord Bolton’s regicide was a little too quick – I think some people might not even realize it was him.

    I agree, I’m so glad Talisa was not a spy. Because of Richard Madden Robb is one of my favorite characters, i love him.

  • Best line of the episode… I’ve got pigs feet too. It’s like that’s gonna change the guys mind. Westeros must be like China! The chinese would have let him in! They’d be like…wow pigs feet! Fuck me let him in! Just walk around the huge Stark massacre and pop them on the table at the front.

  • I hope someone here compiles a bunch of the better newcomer reaction vids to the thing. I want to relive my initial feeling.

  • The saddest part about last night’s episode is that the best of the series currently written is now over. And given the direction Feast and Dance took, the best of the entire series could now be at an end.

    High Sparrows, adultery scandals, and bastard Bolton don’t leave the show with much to do with. No wonder they had to split Storm into two seasons.

  • I can’t help but give my sullied predictions on the next episode. Maybe it’s my need for catharsis. SPOILER: This is strictly for sullied viewers who have read the full Storm of Swords. In fact, don’t read this unless you’ve read the whole book series, just in case I inadvertently spoil something.

    SPOILER ALERT. In case spoiler tags aren’t working.
    I don’t think they’ll advance the plot very much for any of the characters. The story lines seem to have reached a stopping point. There might be a couple reveals and interesting meetings though.
    TYRION/SANSA/SHAE: Tyrion tells Sansa about her mother and brother, she is overwhelmed by grief. Shae consoles her. She either bonds with Tyrion or hates him, not sure which. Shae patches things up with Tyrion.
    MARGAERY/JOFFREY: Something happens that freaks Margaery out about Joffrey.
    CERSEI/JAIME: Cersei is ecstatic when Jaime returns. Jaime defends Brienne against insults.
    TYWIN: Some sort of political/marital discussion, nothing major. Gives Jaime the prodigal son treatment, annoying his other children.
    VARIS: Comments with Tyrion or Littlefinger about events
    BRAN/JOJEN/MEERA: Run into Sam. They say hi, swear Sam to secrecy about their journey but tell him about Jon and dragonglass’s power. Continue north. Maybe a shot of Osha/Rickon walking.
    HODOR: Hodor.
    SAMWELL: After running into Bran, runs into Nights Watch refugees. The crows all head to Castle Black including Sam’s girlfriend and Craster Jr.
    JON: Arrives at Castle Black. Unites with Sam and crew.
    WILDLINGS: Start setting up for attack on Castle Black, light the biggest fire the north has ever seen. Camera zooms in on wildlings, Ygritte, eagle.
    WHITE WALKERS. Shown walking. Maybe they attack some Wildling village. Not much.
    ARYA/HOUND: Fight their way past more Freys (seems to already be in the preview). Arya incredibly upset and during fight she kills with reckless abandon. Then the big reveal we’ve all been waiting for.
    DANY: Kisses Daario, that’s about it.
    STANNIS/MELISANDRE/GENDRY: Stannis says more stuff about usurping, claims credit for Robb’s death, that’s all.
    IRONBORN: Asha/Yara meets Dagmar & crew and they reveal what happened at Winterfell. Decide to hang out at the coast, not press inland.
    THEON: Daddy Bolton comes home, tells son he can call himself a Bolton, doesn’t care what’s happening in the dungeon. Between Boltons and Ironborn, we finally get a full explanation of what happened at Winterfell.

  • Ned’s Head:
    The saddest part about last night’s episode is that the best of the series currently written is now over. And given the direction Feast and Dance took, the best of the entire series could now be at an end.
    High Sparrows, adultery scandals, and bastard Bolton don’t leave the show with much to do with. No wonder they had to split Storm into two seasons.

    You know, [disclaimer: personal opinion] I sadly think I agree with you… This is probably the time for the show to distance itself a lot more from the source material and go its own way. Looking forward to seeing how they are going to do that.

  • Also for all the Coldhand complaints…We do realize that we’re at the end of Bran’s adventure in book 3 right? So obviously they’re going to need to add things for the last half…My guess is Coldhand shows up in season 4 and we’ll have a few new scenes with them..giving

  • George often says that the killing of major characters is not done for just shock value, but to move the story forward, to make it better.

    You can argue that is exactly what happened with Ned’s death, but I’m not so sure you can make that claim about the Red Wedding.

    Sure, it was shocking, maybe the most gut wrenching piece of fantasy ever written. But has it really moved the story forward in a good way? The direct aftermath of the Red Wedding is A Feast for Crows, arguably the worst thing George Martin has ever written. Did anyone read Feast and think “boy, that Red Wedding sure made this story better.” A Dance with Dragons was nearly Feast‘s equal in terms of awfulness, the only silver lining being it contained the better half of the split character set.

    Now granted, he still has two more books at least to right the ship, but if we’re judging the deaths of these major characters as necessary to make the story more compelling and not just gory shock value, then the Red Wedding failed in this pursuit.

    Unless someone can make the case that Feast and Dance have been better than Storm? Personally, they seem to be the Godfather Part III of A Song of Ice and Fire.

    The pressure is on the Winds of Winter to salvage a once great epic.

  • Ah man I would have loved to see this:

    At the Red Wedding, the Greatjon got drunk, competing with Whalen Frey and Merrett Frey. It took eight men to subdue him, of which he killed one, injured two others and bit half an ear off Ser Leslyn Haigh. The Greatjon is captured and imprisoned at the Twins, and his heir the Smalljon is murdered by Bolton men. It is unknown who the current heir is.

  • Ned’s Head,

    I sadly agree, but I hope too that the showrunners will find a way (probably together with George, who I think also realizes that the last two books did not quite work out well and now’s the chance to redeem them) to pull off those seasons keeping them exciting.

  • Bah, I don’t get the hate against Feast For Crows.
    Granted, there are no shockers like the Red Wedding and not a lot of action, but it was a solid book. When people start to whine about that book makes me wonder if they’re not just going with the rest of the sheep flock.

  • Derrida: But Game of Thrones/ASOIAF is different. It’s just murder for the sake of murder, fake blood for the sake of fake blood. A higher narrative purpose does not seem to exist. What is the overall message? What are the guiding ideas? There seems to be only one – “people are bad, they will betray you.” And that’s it. It’s a one-note song, and that one note is something that’s obvious to any bright 13-year-old.

    I’m sorry you feel that way, Derrida. I’m presuming you have not read the books? If you had I don’t think you would be able to satisfactorily call the books or show “murder porn”.

    Besides, given the nature of porn is to be self-indulgent and vein, Game of Thrones is the antithesis of porn. Game of Thrones and ASoIaF shows you the negative consequences of actions, it shows you that you’re not safe. That isn’t to suggest that every “good” character will die, but to show you that they might. Just like in life. You might die and you might not. If you’re reading or watching something and you just know that some characters will definitely not die then the show or book has done something wrong.

    Robb made bad choices and was betrayed.. Ned made bad choices and was betrayed. Perhaps the betrayers will get what’s coming to them? It’s not just good guys that make bad choices, after all.

    Besides. How many shows and movies have you seen where death is just shrugged off as inconsequential? It’s like Lysa says in the first season. “Life is elegant” and people’s lives have meaning. To brutally cast people aside without any real relevance to the consequences is not real life.

  • Ned’s Head:
    The saddest part about last night’s episode is that the best of the series currently written is now over. And given the direction Feast and Dance took, the best of the entire series could now be at an end.

    High Sparrows, adultery scandals, and bastard Bolton don’t leave the show with much to do with. No wonder they had to split Storm into two seasons.

    Plenty of great things we have coming next season.

    And Feast and Dance are very under rated IMO mainly Dance and of course they will adapt them together which will be much better.

  • Monsterfurby: No real people did not die in “Schindler’s List”. Real people died in the events that the film depicts, that is true, but shouldn’t we be able to have an opinion on a film on its own merits regardless of whether it is fictional or not?

    You can have your own opinion on the artistic merits of Schindler’s List all you want (personally, as a Jew, I hate “this is the story of the Holocaust, but all the major players are Gentiles, and the role of the actual victims is only to service and further the Gentile protagonist’s storyline” narratives), but comparing it to a comedy? Really? In what universe is that okay?

    In this instance, The Purist is right. You can easily comment on the effectiveness of the Red Wedding scene without making light of an actual mass-murder and genocide. Please remove your head from your nether regions.

  • My thoughts mirrored Catelyn Starks. Why are the doors closing? Uh…what’s up with that mail bro? That song is familiar..no no no no…eff this life.

  • Stephen Bosco:
    Ah man I would have loved to see this:

    At the Red Wedding, the Greatjon got drunk, competing with Whalen Frey and Merrett Frey. It took eight men to subdue him, of which he killed one, injured two others and bit half an ear off Ser Leslyn Haigh. The Greatjon is captured and imprisoned at the Twins, and his heir the Smalljon is murdered by Bolton men. It is unknown who the current heir is.

    I would love to know what’s going on with Umber? Have the writers just decided to act like he never existed? Did Mantle piss them off?

    Would have rather they spent time with him, Smalljon and Dacey Mormont this season than the Theon scenes[we only needed 2 or 3 scenes of that IMO]

  • Just A Random: Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Storm of Swords. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ASoS yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book reader recap, coming tomorrow. Thanks!

    From the top of the page,

    Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read A Storm of Swords. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read ASoS yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book reader recap, coming tomorrow. Thanks!

    These comment sections are not for you. But sorry.

  • Rhys,

    The message is clearly that this is a harsh world, where choices matter, regardless of virtue. Your choices, above all, will determine your fate. This is grounded in the gritty, true-to-life world of Westeros, making this story much more in line with the actual history of the Dark Ages.

    Realism. George is all about realism. He wants to make it as real as possible.

    Except, of course, for the three giant, flying, fire-breathing lizards, the army of evil, undead snowmen who command hordes of zombies, the little forest elves who look like a cross between a midget and a deer, and the dudes with mind control over animals and the power to see eons of history through the memories of magic trees.

    Realism!

  • Overall, a good episode. 8/10. Probably my favorite since ep 4 this season (ep 8 and 3 were also really good).

    I just gotta say that unlike the other big event this season (Dany’s climax in ep 4) there was something that felt a little off about the red wedding. Yeah it was horrible… but the execution just felt akward somehow. I didn’t feel that way at ALL about the Astapor scene. That was perfectly executed, wonderfully acted, great tension build up, good pacing, etc. You knew sort of what was going to happen but not exactly how, then BOOM. Whereas this it felt like… t hey didn’t build up the tension enough. It was just like yay happy happy wedding times, them BOOM! Then cut to Arya (which I wouldn’t have done), then back for some throat slicing. I don’t know. IT just felt weird! But I think it was done OK. Maybe I’ll change my mind after rewatching.

    The rest of the episode was great. I especially liked Bran’s warging! Did anyone else get an intensely creepy/shameful vibe after Bran warged Hodor? Bran’s expressions seem to be saying “there’s something wrong about this… I shouldn’t do this…” Then Jojen being so gleeful about it and pushing him to do it more. It makes me think that Bran might be going somewhere really dark in the future…

    regarding Dany:

    I’m still kind of hoping that Jorah pushes his luck and tries to kiss Dany, like in the books. It was supposed to happen prior to meeting Daario, but doing it now makes a different kind of sense, as it’ll be coming from a place of desperation on his part since he can already tell she’s attracted to Daario. Could be quite dramatic. I’d like a bit of pushiness/posessiveness from Jorah so that Dany has a right to be indignant later on.

    On a less positive note, why do they keep turning so many of Dany’s good decisions over to other people (a rare reversal was the choice to make Dany’s Valyrian trick a secret, whereas in the book it was Jorah’s idea)? It’s irritating. She specifically organizes the strategy for defeating the Yunkish army without consulting anyone, and it goes according to plan. I do however like how they were at pains to show that she consulted all of her advisers before following Daario’s plan…

  • Vidluv,

    But coldhands might be the Night’s King. That alone makes him very interesting. There is no other character in the books that has his ‘condition’.

  • Not afraid to admit it, when Robb said “Mother” I began to cry. So very emotional. And then I went on twitter and saw someone post “#theykillednedtwice” and I started to cry again. Very VERY powerful episode. IMO 100x harder to see than to read.

  • queenofthorns,

    I think that’s why it worked so much. Unlike the book the show didn’t drum on about Walder Frey not being a man to cross and didn’t have Cat saying her fears every 2 minutes.
    The RW was still a shock but i wasn’t shocked that something bad went down when reading the book.

  • I think Coldhands will be next year. That would be a good, intriguing new character to introduce to the cast at the start of a fresh season.

    As for Stoneheart, I think we need that next week. I understand why some people say the loss should “marinate”, but I think this is a character best brought in sooner rather than later. I think next week it would play out as a cool “wtf?!” moment. Next season it has the potential to be cheapened because it’s too after-the-fact (that old cliche of false deaths in fantasy). I’m really hoping for the last two scenes of the finale to be: Dany riding past the slaves, followed by Beric resurrecting Stoneheart.

  • Rhys,

    I’ve read the books. I will not read new books, however, after Martin completely lost the plot with the Feast/Dance trainwreck.

    Besides, given the nature of porn is to be self-indulgent and vain, Game of Thrones is the antithesis of porn.

    I have to disagree here. Game of Thrones really is self-indulgent and vain – compare it to the really good HBO series like The Sopranos and Six Feet Under. They offered more to the viewer than wacky plot twists and tits.

    And sorry – the fact that “Game of Thrones teaches us that no one is safe” doesn’t really cut it. If we need a $50 million TV show to take 10 episodes every year to teach us something that every averagely intelligent 12-year-old knows, then someone is being very silly indeed.

    What is crystal clear to me after reading the books and watching the show (which I might stop – after the initial effect of every episode wears off after 5 minutes or so, it leaves me cold) is that nothing thrills Martin more than writing shocking plot twists for the sake of shocking plot twists.

    It worked at the beginning (Drogo dying and Dany’s story going into a completely new direction), but by book five it really didn’t (Dany doing what she did, instead of going to Westeros as five whole books lured us to think that she’d do, only for Martin to stage Yet Another Shock Twist!)

    If he had any interest in telling a good story in a coherent way, he would have told it in the form of a trilogy – as he originally intended. But as his desire was to just indulge himself endlessly by adding gazillion new minor characters and pointless storylines, and shock readers/viewers by a near-infinite number of cheap twists, the book series mushroomed into the horribly bloated mess of 5,000 pages that aren’t even close to a beginning of a resolution.

    I wonder, what’s going to happen in season 4 of the show? Barely anything happens in the second half of Storm. What will happen in seasons 5 and 6, considering Feast and Dance? You’ll see that Martin’s incompetence will eventually result in the cancellation of this series. Does anyone think HBO will finance whole seasons of Brienne walking through the woods, Tyrion touring the Free Cities with the circus and Dany sitting on the throne in Meereen and whining?

    This used to be good. I liked Game, Clash and Storm. But then Martin ruined a good thing he himself made, and I realised along the way that I was just too young to see that even the first three books were nothing more than cheap fantasy soap opera, a one trick pony, and that its one trick is the message – “you’re not safe!” Wow, brilliant! It’s great to need five books of 5,000 pages and thirty television episodes to tell us 1,263 times something that we’ve all heard from our parents when we were six.

  • It’s only fair to also see what Michelle Fairley has to say about all of this…here is a link to her interview, in regards to the Red Wedding, working with Richard Madden and the rest of the cast and crew:

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/game-thrones-michelle-fairley-talks-emotions-shooting-shocking-024153971.html

    As for the rest, wow, it is sad to see how discussions about a beloved (or not) TV show and a series of brilliant novels (or not) degenerate…into what it is now…I saw comments on the Holocaust…”Schindler’s List”…some back and forth about “ROME” (which by the way is a show I also love)…huh…what? Then some mention of some website (westeros.org) basically bashing the show…ohhhhhh kkkkay then….When in the hell did this become about all of that? And on top of that shit sandwich, people who for whatever reason, feel the need to vomit their bile and venom on this site…

    Pretty sad…

  • Lina,

    I feel like the tile of next week’s episode makes it clear that we will see Lady Stoneheart next week. Because D&D tend to make titles mean more than one thing, and Mysha means “mother”, I think it’s a safe bet. It would also be virtually impossible to keep Michelle Fairley (sp?)’s filming next season a secret.

  • Great episode overall, however I felt a need to remark on how the culminating moments of Cat’s and Robb’s deaths came across as a bit flat, mainly due to framing – as some users have already commented – and what I imagine to be directional pointers that the actors received on set. I admit I can’t remember the particulars of the corresponding scene in the book, but Robb’s apparent invulnerability to arrows as he calmly rises up to hold the dying Talysa in his arms (an awful movie cliche) and Roose’s dash/return seemed unintentionally comic. Michelle Fairley is clearly fantastic in the scene, but the poignancy of her character’s death is a bit cheapened as well by the appearance of some unnamed Frey who moves into the frame in a very scripted fashion and slits her throat sending more CGI blood. Her dropping to the floor overtaken by pain and shock, Lord Frey’s order to put an end to it and a close-up with the famous “Not the hair” whispered as she bleeds out would be great in as much as it instantly reminds the reader about the continued trauma she has been experiencing with the demise of her husband & family in a manner that is much more evocative than the added conversation she has with Robb about tactics from the beginning of the episode.

    Someone here pointed to HBO’s Rome, and that immediately sent me back to the death of Julius Caesar which was handled superbly by the cast and film crew alike, despite the fact that every half-educated viewer knows how the story unfolds and the moment has been played to death on stage and on film. Ciarán Hinds’ (who also happens to play Mance Ryder on GoT) convulsing body and the surprise realization his wide-opened eyes convey both at Brutus’ participation in the scheme and his own now apparent mortality was so powerful that I can still replay it in my head event though I have watched it some 5 or 6 years ago. Oh, and Shakespeare’s famous one liner doesn’t even escape Caesar’s mouth, it does not need to.

  • Derrida,

    You know… as a fan of ASOIAF for almost 8 years and running… I have to say that I don’t disagree with you at all. GRRM absolutely teeters on the edge of torture-porn/violence-porn, especially with things like the Theon content. I know many people tha thave dropped the books after hte first two just because it’s so oppressively grim. A lot of fans make fun of these people saying they should “get a spine” or they should “learn what life is really like” etc.

    What’s really weird are the fans you find over on Westeros.org and reddit who seem (maybe as some kind of defense mechanism) to reject the idea of morality at all, saying things like “well Tywin/Littlefinger/Bolton were right to do what they did, there’s no such thing as right/wrong in medieval society, Ned/Robb/Catelyn/Dany/Jon are stupid for trying to do good.” I reject this point of view outright. Yes, GRRM complicates the narrative of the “hero/heroine”. But that doesn’t mean that he is trying to tell the reader that good is wrong. He is trying to tell us that doing good is HARD and sometimes we fail despite good intentions.

    Call me a sucker or whatever, but I keep coming back because I do care about the good guys. I believe that most of the shit evil characters WILL get what’s coming to them. And the well-meaning characters – Sansa, Jon, Dany, Samwell, Brienne, Davos, Bran will eventually be important and wield their influence to make the world just a bit better before they too leave this life. The cynics can suck it.

  • Derrida:
    Rhys,

    This used to be good. I liked Game, Clash and Storm. But then Martin ruined a good thing he himself made, and I realised along the way that I was just too young to see that even the first three books were nothing more than cheap fantasy soap opera, a one trick pony, and that one trick is a message of staggering intelligence – “you’re not safe!” Wow, simply brilliant.

    Cry me a river. If you don’t like it, I don’t know what the hell are you doing here.
    No, I’m not one of those fans who don’t respect others’ opinions, but I don’t get the point of coming here to bitch “Boohoo, Martin butchered the books, Feast For Crows killed my family”.
    Sorry, but I had to chuckle at “Cheap fantasy soap opera”. The stream of whiners never end. You can go to “Is Winter Coming?” and feel right at home there.

    Next.

  • Ned’s Head:
    George often says that the killing of major characters is not done for just shock value, but to move the story forward, to make it better.

    You can argue that is exactly what happened with Ned’s death, but I’m not so sure you can make that claim about the Red Wedding.

    Sure, it was shocking, maybe the most gut wrenching piece of fantasy ever written. But has it really moved the story forward in a good way?The direct aftermath of the Red Wedding is A Feast for Crows, arguably the worst thing George Martin has ever written.Did anyone read Feast and think “boy, that Red Wedding sure made this story better.”

    I don’t see how anyone can think of it in those terms. It seems silly to me.

    As someone who read the first 4 books back to back five years ago (after a recommendation from my brother), I found that I absolutely LOVED A Feast For Crows. I LOVED reading about the Ironborn and their culture, which was vastly different from any other region in Westeros. I LOVED following Brienne on her adventures through the war-scarred Riverlands and seeing the territories through her eyes. I LOVED following Arya across the Narrow Sea into Braavos, a city unlike anything in Westeros. I LOVED watching Jaime read through the White Book with him finally facing realization that he *wants* his name to be synonymous with honor and justice. I LOVED watching Cersei drink herself into a stupor and revealing herself an even bigger idiot than anyone could have imagined. I LOVED discovering Dorne, like the Iron Islands, was vastly different from the rest of Westeros in terms of culture and lands, and finding out Doran’s secret plan.

    I LOVED all of that. I even LOVED the name. It seem to really fit with the aftermath of war.

    I read all the books before coming to the internet and was extremely surprised to find I was in the minority when it came to AFFC. People are entitled to feel the way they do, naturally but I personally, yes, LOVED the ride that is AFFC.

  • I still can’t believe they made her pregnant just to kill her and the baby in such a brutal fashion. And the “We’ll call him Eddard” business too! The RW wasn’t brutal enough as written, they had to take it up a notch?

  • Ive read the books, I knew what was coming, (I still covered my eyes a couple times) I had prepared and worked myself up for this episode for awhile. I really thought I was going to be able to handle it…but thenTalisa says “Don’t you want to teach little Ned Stark how to ride horse?” and it about broke my heart.

  • The Purist,

    Hey, i incline more on the purist side and i do believe that the books are superior than the series but that is my opinion. don’t go forcing your hate on other’s throat.

    i like the show and granted i hate most of the deviations but not all those who love the show think D&D shit gold. don’t overgeneralize. NOT ALL WHO LIKE THE SHOW ARE FANBOYS AND NOT ALL PURISTs ARE LIKE “The Purist”

    come on, if you hate the show you hate the show. to each his own but its annoying if you just post to spread hate. i agree with most of your arguments but PLEASE don’t be such an ass about it.

  • Baihu1983: I would love to know what’s going on with Umber? Have the writers just decided to act like he never existed? Did Mantle piss them off?Would have rather they spent time with him, Smalljon and Dacey Mormont this season than the Theon scenes[we only needed 2 or 3 scenes of that IMO]

    Definitely agree. Part of what makes the Red Wedding so hard is the multitude of characters that die, not just Robb and Catelyn. It’s just as heartbreaking losing Dacey, the Smalljon, and Wendel Manderly. Even Jinglebell! I suppose that was all implied on screen but since we never met the characters it doesn’t resonate.

    Regardless the scene was awesome and I dreamt about it all night. Tired now :(

  • Atreyu: They sound terrible! Please, tell us more.

    Nay, I don’t think they’re terrible people. I know you’re there.
    I’ve visited and enjoyed some threads. But I don’t really understand the apparent NEED to bitch and whine about the “fat fuck Gurm”.
    I don’t think everything Martin touches is gold, to be honest. But it certainly gets tiresome. If a Martin fanboy went there to bitch and complain about your (speaking in general) bitching and complaining, surely nobody would take him/her seriously.

    Same here. After the 999th post of “Bloated mess, Gurm can’t write for shit, he’ll never end this saga”, whatever. Try something new. Speaking of one-trick ponies.

  • Ned’s Head: The saddest part about last night’s episode is that the best of the series currently written is now over. And given the direction Feast and Dance took, the best of the entire series could now be at an end.High Sparrows, adultery scandals, and bastard Bolton don’t leave the show with much to do with. No wonder they had to split Storm into two seasons.

    For many this is probably true. The RW was really the main thing people have been waiting for since the show began. However, there are plenty of things to look forward to. The most obvious of course is the PW. Then there’s Tywin’s shit. Battle at the Wall. Many ‘small scale’ events happen that are pretty neat. I won’t list everything of course, and while not on the emotional level of the RW, there’s quite a bit I’m excited to see adapted from AFfC and ADwD. Personally I’m looking forward to seeing Tyrion on the road again and Arya’s “experiences.” Of course the hope for the show (and the books) getting to the very end is there. I’ll assume there will be some great stuff before and by then.

  • Valdred Dethstorm:
    Bah, I don’t get the hate against Feast For Crows.
    Granted, there are no shockers like the Red Wedding and not a lot of action, but it was a solid book. When people start to whine about that book makes me wonder if they’re not just going with the rest of the sheep flock.

    I think, like Larry Williams, some readers just expect things to go a certain way. One major complaint I hear is how Dany STILL hasn’t made it to Westeros. It’s this need to see what they want now, now, now. I never expect anything while reading the books other than to be entertained. I’m not in it solely for any particular characters because I personally find them all fascinating. i.e. I’m not going to crave for chocolate ice-cream because the vanilla ice-cream I’m having now is delicious! I’ll get that chocolate ice-cream eventually, in the meantime I’ll enjoy what I get.

    That’s not to say I don’t have some issue with certain aspects (Dany in ADWD).

  • For some reason, being a book reader who knew this would happen, Talisa’s death almost struck me as the hardest to watch. Not that I cared for her so much, it was more like that I up to the moment of her death thought that she was a spy and that she would survive – seeing how I proven wrong in the most drastic way you might imagine was heartbreaking.

    Catelyns death was just as I imagined, well just with Frey’s wife instead of a son. And just as I thought, I couldn’t help but cry.

  • Baihu1983,

    I don’t understand why they did not just get another similar-looking guy to play Greatjon. They did this with the Mountain (in fact they did not even look like each other). Would have been good to have at least one loyal bannerman with lines. The Freys were actually so scared of the Greatjon they made sure his was good and pissed and out of the equation. In the tv show…well he just seems to have vanished.

  • Valdred Dethstorm

    Cry me a river. If you don’t like it, I don’t know what the hell are you doing here.

    I’m expressing my opinion. It’s what people do on message boards. Permit me to enlighten you as to the cause of your distress – my opinion differs from yours and that makes you unhappy! It’s not a very mature response.

    No, I’m not one of those fans who don’t respect others’ opinions, but I don’t get the point of coming here to bitch “Boohoo, Martin butchered the books, Feast For Crows killed my family”.

    No, Feast of Crows didn’t kill my family. It’s just a very bad book.

    Sorry, but I had to chuckle at “Cheap fantasy soap opera”.

    Do you often chuckle at the opinions of people you disagree with? You must be nine years old, then. Nine-year-olds spend most of their days chuckling!

    And if your delicate sensibilities are able to withstand this simplest of principles of modern democratic society (free speech), let me do the unthinkable crime of expressing my opinion once more – Game of Thrones is a trashy, slutty soap opera rapidly devolving into torture/murder porn.

    The only good thing about it is that it’s not cheap – HBO stuffs it with cash, and that is it’s only redeeming quality. Good sets and well-paid good actors, like Peter Dinklage, Charles Dance and Diana Rigg. In fact that’s the only reason I’ve watched it this season.

    The stream of whiners never end. You can go to “Is Winter Coming?” and feel right at home there.

    Well, since this isn’t North Korea and you’re not The Dictator, I’ll happily disregard your advice/orders and stay right here. I hope that the horrific events like opinions of other people you don’t agree with won’t give you too many nightmares.

  • Loved the episode, especially the moment Cat realizes whats going… And have to say it was more of a punch in the face then when i read the book (mind you it has ALOT to do with the brilliant Michelle Fairley).

    Book spoilers: And even if i HATE the zombie Cat storyline and at the start of the show wished they would change it so she stays dead i f**** love Michelle acting so im all up for some zombi Cat revenge action.

  • Valdred Dethstorm,

    people are idiots…AFFC and ADWD are basically one book, split into two b/c of the size…they take place CONCURRENTLY, and D&D will have it easy b/c they get to tell this part of the tale concurrently, and not sideline Jon, Tyrion, and Dany for an interminable period of time…they will get all this unwarranted credit for making the next two books “better” on TV when all they will be doing is telling the tale chronologically in its entirety…

    it’s one thing to disagree w/ GRRM’s choice to split this part of the tale geographically into two books, but it’s another thing entirely not to be able to put them together as a reader and get the complete picture you should be getting after reading them both…

  • Youssef,

    There are two and a half more books with two more on the way. If you wanted a cut and dry hero story, this isn’t the series for you.

  • Damn, so sad, so sad I would hope that GRRM at least makes up for part of the destruction that has befell the Starks from the begining, hell at this point a happy ending would be one of the Direwolfs having puppies

  • argilac’s antler,

    I think, like Larry Williams, some readers just expect things to go a certain way. One major complaint I hear is how Dany STILL hasn’t made it to Westeros. It’s this need to see what they want now, now, now.

    Or could it be that, after the author spends five whole gigantic books implying that the narrative is going in a certain direction, and firing off 15 or so plot twists, you expect that after that luring the narrative will actually go into that direction, because it seems as by far the most natural and logical direction the story will take?

    And really, after 5,000 pages and 17 years (first book published in 1996) does the idea that if some readers expect that Dany will go to Westeros instead of going off in the wrong way for the 27th time really qualify as “now, now, now!” ?

  • Liz B.,

    Completely agree and hope that’s what’s happening. I’ve seen comments here about that character not being included, or held for S4, or having a different actor play it…but I think none of those options makes a lick of sense.

  • I’m convinced that people who complain about AFfC and ADwD are simply people who do not understand the concept of the long game. Just because there isn’t a ton of violence and bloodshed doesn’t make the books any less satisfying if you look at them in the context of the story. The political maneuvering and positioning and setting up of the story arch for TWoW and ADoS is necessary. This is a big world with lots of players and that necessitates what your average GIMME GIMME GIMME reader would call “filler”, even though the material stands up to almost any fantasy ever written. If you know George, you know that he’s a smart enough writer to understand the concept of the payoff. Stop whining just because OMG THE SHOW IS GONNA BE SO BORING BECAUSE PEOPLE WON’T DIE ALL THE TIME WAHHHHHHH. You’re not giving the artist the credit for the art he makes. I’m sure D&D will find ways to spruce up the show without deviating from the source material too much. This can easily be done. Stop acting like the show is suddenly going to turn into a courtroom procedural.

  • Hahaha. Hope I didn’t hurt many feelings.
    Apply some cold water in the burned area and continue to bitch and whine freely. Like if you needed my permission anyway, no need to compare me to a dictator “a la Kim Jong Il”. I don’t recall asking Winter or some moderator for your banning or something like that.

    Anyway, I’m out. Thanks for the free laughs.

  • Regarding season 4 I really can’t see them delaying the battle at the wall until episode 9. If we get meaningless Stannis scenes before that I will claw my eyes out. Here’s to hoping the battle is in episode 4 like Dany taking the Unsullied. Save Tywins death for episode 9

  • They really should have saved the Hold Steady’s version of “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” for credits of this one!

  • Croccifixio:
    The Purist,

    Hey, i incline more on the purist side and i do believe that the books are superior than the series but that is my opinion. don’t go forcing your hate on other’s throat.

    i like the show and granted i hate most of the deviations but not all those who love the show think D&D shit gold. don’t overgeneralize. NOT ALL WHO LIKE THE SHOW ARE FANBOYS AND NOT ALL PURISTs ARE LIKE “The Purist”

    come on, if you hate the show you hate the show. to each his own but its annoying if you just post to spread hate. i agree with most of your arguments but PLEASE don’t be such an ass about it.

    I think all of us who read and enjoyed the books are purists in some sense. I hated the Harry Potter movies and have disliked several other adaptations of other books I enjoyed.

    Books are better than TV in many ways and vice versa. I’m not sure a true comparison can be made as to which is better: ASoIaF or GoT any more than you can compare an original version of a song and a cover of it. It’s just different.

    I happen to love both.

  • argilac’s antler,

    Oops.

    ATTN: Moderators. Can you spoiler block the my post in the reply link? Said some things about A Feast For Crows certain people may not want to know yet. Thanks.

  • Youssef:
    I have never felt this sick to my stomach as I did last night….thisfeeling is still with me this morning. Cruel doesn’t begin to describe it. The author is a sick twisted man who only sees the bad in everything and who doesn’t know the word hope. I watch and read books to escape from life not to be kicked in the mouth by a horse while at the same time being punched in the gut at the sametime. I was once incredibly and deeply in love with the world he created. Now my love for the series is ended. Why would I involve myself again emotionally only to have the author do this again? I’d have to see Tyson, frays, Bolton meet there demised 10fold for me to even be somewhat satisfied but we all know that will never happen. F YOU MR MARTIN!!!!!

    Dude… if you are looking for a feel-good story, you really picked the wrong fandom, buddy. Could I suggest you read the Tale of Peter Rabbit, instead?

  • Valdred Dethstorm,

    Oh, I didn’t take any offense at what you said. And some of it is true. However, I think you’ll find that dissenting opinions are very welcome there concerning the quality of the books and the author. It’s a happy place with people who recognize that friends come in all sizes!

    Including this site, IWC? is also one of the best places to get news about the book series. When GRRM signed his two-year development deal with HBO recently, I heard about it first there and then here. The “definitive” ASOIAF site, Westeros, locked that thread tighter than a duck’s ass as soon as the story broke and, reportedly, deleted any new threads on the subject.

  • Youssef:
    I have never felt this sick to my stomach as I did last night….thisfeeling is still with me this morning. Cruel doesn’t begin to describe it. The author is a sick twisted man who only sees the bad in everything and who doesn’t know the word hope. I watch and read books to escape from life not to be kicked in the mouth by a horse while at the same time being punched in the gut at the sametime. I was once incredibly and deeply in love with the world he created. Now my love for the series is ended. Why would I involve myself again emotionally only to have the author do this again? I’d have to see Tyson, frays, Bolton meet there demised 10fold for me to even be somewhat satisfied but we all know that will never happen. F YOU MR MARTIN!!!!!

    I’m gonna be bummed about Tyson Lannister too.

  • Croccifixio: Hey, i incline more on the purist side and i do believe that the books are superior than the series but that is my opinion. don’t go forcing your hate on other’s throat.

    i like the show and granted i hate most of the deviations but not all those who love the show think D&D shit gold. don’t overgeneralize. NOT ALL WHO LIKE THE SHOW ARE FANBOYS AND NOT ALL PURISTs ARE LIKE “The Purist”

    come on, if you hate the show you hate the show. to each his own but its annoying if you just post to spread hate. i agree with most of your arguments but PLEASE don’t be such an ass about it.

    If you actually read my comments, I consider those who get all butthurt at any criticism of the show are the fanboys. When I point out why I didn’t like the episode, I don’t expect people to agree with me, just laying out my opinion. And I don’t consider anyone a fanboy just because they like the show. Get it now? Also, you wouldn’t make fun of my ass, if you know how fine my booty is.

  • Derrida:
    I wonder, what’s going to happen in season 4 of the show? Barely anything happens in the second half of Storm. What will happen in seasons 5 and 6, considering Feast and Dance? You’ll see that Martin’s incompetence will eventually result in the cancellation of this series. Does anyone think HBO will finance whole seasons of Brienne walking through the woods, Tyrion touring the Free Cities with the circus and Dany sitting on the throne in Meereen and whining?

    I totally agree with you about the declining quality of the books, although my problem is not the lack of a “message” but the way the whole thing is fragmenting and falling apart. Things keep happening, characters are going to places and doing things, more and more characters and places are introduced, but there’s no sign that the whole thing is going to converge at one point in a satisfactory way. Martin has clearly lost focus (or he’s just burned out, I wouldn’t be surprised), and he’s in a desperate need of an editor.

    But I think the showrunners of GOT know well enough that trying to adapt the remaining books as they are would make horrible television, so I expect there will be a serious amount of trimming and cutting and streamlining. They’ll have to pull in the reins and keep the writing tight, otherwise viewers are going to get frustrated and eventually bored. (Especially now, with the brutal loss of one set of fan-favorite characters, with no satisfactory retribution in sight.) D&D already said that they stopped going by a book-by-book basis, the TV series is an “ASOIAF adaptation” so they’ll cut and paste storylines and scenes from the entire series instead of just faithfully following the rest of ASOS.

    (Btw as for “murder porn” – there’s absolutely nothing new about what you describe…)

    Toadie: Michelle Fairley is clearly fantastic in the scene, but the poignancy of her character’s death is a bit cheapened as well by the appearance of some unnamed Frey who moves into the frame in a very scripted fashion and slits her throat sending more CGI blood. Her dropping to the floor overtaken by pain and shock, Lord Frey’s order to put an end to it and a close-up with the famous “Not the hair” whispered as she bleeds out would be great in as much as it instantly reminds the reader about the continued trauma she has been experiencing with the demise of her husband & family in a manner that is much more evocative than the added conversation she has with Robb about tactics from the beginning of the episode.

    Frankly, the “not the hair” line would’ve been ridiculously out of place and distracting in the episode. I think overall the writers did a great job translating the RW to screen, I would only nitpick Bolton’s weird step in-step out, and the editing of Cat’s wail. The rest was great.

  • Derrida:
    Rhys,

    I’ve read the books. I will not read new books, however, after Martin completely lost the plot with the Feast/Dance trainwreck.

    I have to disagree here. Game of Thrones really is self-indulgent and vain – compare it to the really good HBO series like The Sopranos and Six Feet Under. They offered more to the viewer than wacky plot twists and tits.

    And sorry – the fact that “Game of Thrones teaches us that no one is safe” doesn’t really cut it. If we need a $50 million TV show to take 10 episodes every year to teach us something that every averagely intelligent 12-year-old knows, then someone is being very silly indeed.

    What is crystal clear to me after reading the books and watching the show (which I might stop – after the initial effect of every episode wears off after 5 minutes or so, it leaves me cold) is that nothing thrills Martin more than writing shocking plot twists for the sake of shocking plot twists.

    It worked at the beginning (Drogo dying and Dany’s story going into a completely new direction), but by book five it really didn’t (Dany doing what she did, instead of going to Westeros as five whole books lured us to think that she’d do, only for Martin to stage Yet Another Shock Twist!)

    If he had any interest in telling a good story in a coherent way, he would have told it in the form of a trilogy – as he originally intended. But as his desire was to just indulge himself endlessly by adding gazillion new minor characters and pointless storylines, and shock readers/viewers by a near-infinite number of cheap twists, the book series mushroomed into the horribly bloated mess of 5,000 pages that aren’t even close to a beginning of a resolution.

    I wonder, what’s going to happen in season 4 of the show? Barely anything happens in the second half of Storm. What will happen in seasons 5 and 6, considering Feast and Dance? You’ll see that Martin’s incompetence will eventually result in the cancellation of this series. Does anyone think HBO will finance whole seasons of Brienne walking through the woods, Tyrion touring the Free Cities with the circus and Dany sitting on the throne in Meereen and whining?

    This used to be good. I liked Game, Clash and Storm. But then Martin ruined a good thing he himself made, and I realised along the way that I was just too young to see that even the first three books were nothing more than cheap fantasy soap opera, a one trick pony, and that its one trick is the message – “you’re not safe!” Wow, brilliant! It’s great to need five books of 5,000 pages and thirty television episodes to tell us 1,263 times something that we’ve all heard from our parents when we were six.

    Yeah, this isn’t a morality play. It’s a story. You apparently can’t tell the difference. The theme isn’t “you’re not safe!”, because there is no theme.

    You also bitch about the lack of resolution, but the story just reached it’s last act. You don’t turn off Lord of the Rings a third of the way into the 3rd movie then throw a fit because everything wasn’t wrapped up. You don’t turn on Empire Strikes Back and cry because there was no resolution to the Han storyline. But that is what you’re doing, complaining about how the meal didn’t have any desserts while it’s still on the way.

  • This was the best episode so far this season but i’m also a little bit disappointed about the fact that a lot of things are not the same as in the books more and further the story becomes..

    Were was Greatjon Umber at the red wedding and why the direwulf was not in the building.
    Because now it was like the Freys and Boltons owned the Starks but there were also Frey casualties.

    Only one thing to say left about this episode; I had goosebumps all over my body when the musican started to play ”Rains of Castamere”

  • “Hodor, stop Hodoring!”

    Is it just me or did we all just get trolled by D&D? This show is brilliant.

  • Ned’s Head,

    I have to agree. I’ve dreaded this episode, and I didn’t leave the edge of my seat the entire time. Catelyn’s performance was top notch, as was Robb’s.

    Just as much as the book, this episode makes you crave revenge against the Lannisters, the Freys, the Bolton’s, etc.

  • Hawk,

    AFFC and ADWD are basically one book, split into two b/c of the size…they take place CONCURRENTLY

    Yes, we all know that. And both are very bad. Or, sorry – they are basically one very bad book, split into two b/c (are you unable to spell the word “because”?) of the size.

    they will get all this unwarranted credit for making the next two books “better” on TV

    Unfortunately, I disagree. In my opinion Feast/Dance monster-book is beyond redemption and even concurrently on TV it will suck and cause the series to be cancelled prematurely.

  • argilac’s antler: I don’t see how anyone can think of it in those terms. It seems silly to me.

    As someone who read the first 4 books back to back five years ago (after a recommendation from my brother), I found that I absolutely LOVED A Feast For Crows. I LOVED reading about the Ironborn and their culture, which was vastly different from any other region in Westeros. I LOVED following Brienne on her adventures through the war-scarred Riverlands and seeing the territories through her eyes. I LOVED following Arya across the Narrow Sea into Braavos, a city unlike anything in Westeros. I LOVED watching Jaime read through the White Book with him finally facing realization that he *wants* his name to be synonymous with honor and justice. I LOVED watching Cersei drink herself into a stupor and revealing herself an even bigger idiot than anyone could have imagined. I LOVED discovering Dorne, like the Iron Islands, was vastly different from the rest of Westeros in terms of culture and lands, and finding out Doran’s secret plan.

    I LOVED all of that. I even LOVED the name. It seem to really fit with the aftermath of war.

    I read all the books before coming to the internet and was extremely surprised to find I was in the minority when it came to AFFC. People are entitled to feel the way they do, naturally but I personally, yes, LOVED the ride that is AFFC.

    You are by no means the only one who enjoyed “A Feast For Crows”. I love all books equally I might add. All of them seem, at least to me, as a natural progression of the different stories and characters. One thing I’d like to add is that no matter how shattered the Red Wedding left me as a reader and now as a viewer, sick though it may sound, as you read on and as the show will develop, Rob’s death and everyone else’s starts to make sense, I know, I know sick and twisted as it may be…

    As for “A Feast For Crows” I thought it was a wonderful change of pace in some aspects, as well as a type of mental break for a reader such as myself, who had been brutalized by the events in “A Storm Of Swords”. It sets up new and intersting plots and storylines, it presents other cultures and in general expands the world of “A Song Of Ice And Fire”. We get to see something new, something that enriches our experience as readers and hopefully where the show is concerned as viewers. If you ask me “A Feast For Crows” is the perfect anti-dote to “A Storm Of Swords”, wonderfully callibrated by Martin to counter-balance the intensity of “A Storm Of Swords”. I mean that as a compliment to the book, which by the way is not tame or quiet in any which way.

    Plus the characters that are introduced…are fantastic, don’t want to mention them here, but we all know who they are (that being said Alexander Sidding for the Red Viper pleeeeeeeasseeeee!!!!!!).

    “A Feast For Crows” has the unenviable task of being the “middle book” one which has to anchor the transition to the final novels in the ASOIF cycle. IT is very hard to follow-up on the highs delivered in “A Storm Of Swords”, but I thought that Martin did it, and brilliantly so. With “A Feast For Crows” he enriched the tapestry of his world, allowed me as a reader to expand my idea of what “A Song Of Ice And Fire” is, and better yet, enjoy my time spent in such a brilliantly created environment, populated with interesting people who I care about. As a reader I can ask no more than that.

    So, also as a viewer, I cannot wait to see what comes next. This idea that there is nothing else of worth to follow is nonsense. I’d rather say, the best is yet to come!

  • Derrida:
    Or could it be that, after the author spends five whole gigantic books implying that the narrative is going in a certain direction, and firing off 15 or so plot twists, you expect that after that luring the narrative will actually go into that direction, because it seems as by far the most natural and logical direction the story will take?

    Isn’t that what I just said?

    argilac’s antler: some readers just expect things to go a certain way.

    That’s what I was getting at in my experience. I don’t expect anything to go how I *think* it will go. I just read along for the ride. Of course, as I said eariler I read the first 4 books back to back only five years ago. Although 15 years is indeed a long time and can have a negative effect on readers including/especially impatience. In that sense I’m kind of lucky, then again come back to me in another 15 years when the last book(s) has yet to be released and I may probably feel differently. =)

  • Well done, D&D! I’ve read ASOS twice, and this episode got to me emotionally much more than the book ever did. I’m pretty sure I need grief counseling now!

  • One thing I will say and that is then need to change the formula of having the big event happen in episode 9.

    People will be fully onto it by now. The good thing is too much big stuff will happen next season for it to all be in 1 episode ;)

  • Eor!,

    Yeah, this isn’t a morality play. It’s a story. You apparently can’t tell the difference.

    Every morality play is by its nature a story, but you apparently can’t figure out something that simple.

    Also, I am perfectly aware that this is a fantasy novel/TV show and not a morality play. But good novels and TV shows often have themes – you know, something that lies beneath the surface, something that makes the story deep and complex, instead of just complicated and superficial. Good stories have themes and ideas, bad stories don’t have them.

    The theme isn’t “you’re not safe!”, because there is no theme.

    Good – thanks for proving my point. I agree, there is no theme, which is to say there is nothing beneath the surface, which is to say that ASOIAF is superficial. Wacky plot twists and dragons only for the sake of wacky plot twists and dragons.

    You also bitch about the lack of resolution, but the story just reached it’s last act. You don’t turn off Lord of the Rings a third of the way into the 3rd movie then throw a fit because everything wasn’t wrapped up. You don’t turn on Empire Strikes Back and cry because there was no resolution to the Han storyline.

    Oh, but there’s a big difference!

    Lord of the Rings = 3 books. 1,200 or so pages.
    Star Wars = three movies.

    ASOIAF = five books so far, seven planned (or eight) / 5,000 pages so far, seven or eight thousand in the end (or more).

    And GRRM said it was supposed to be a trilogy.

    So it’s obvious that, unlike Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, things spiralled badly out of control.

    It’s also obvious that if it takes someone 5,000 pages to barely come close to even the beginning of the resolution, then that someone is an incompetent author.

    Lucas showed that it’s possible to tell a great story in three films. Tolkien showed that it’s possible to tell a great story and create a fascinating imaginative world in just three books that combine into “just” 1,200 pages.

    5,000 pages and still meandering all over the place, when the original plan was a trilogy, three books of 800-900 pages each = that’s incompetence. Gross incompetence.

  • Being 25 years old I consider myself a grown up man. I can’t remember the last time I cried but I can’t have been older than 15 years or so.
    This episode left me crying and my whole body is still shaking. What an episode. I will never be able to watch it again.

  • Derrida,

    I don’t spell b/c b/c it’s difficult for people like you to read long words like that…you are welcome to your opinion, and I would kindly suggest you go read something else, b/c clearly, the scope of ASOIAF has gone beyond you…

  • babar,

    This just put an image of khal drogo sitting in the back of the room, and once all the dust settle he just nods and starts clapping.

  • afsdf,

    Ummmmm, Schindler’s List is based on the Holocaust where 6 million very real people died versus made up characters, albeit beloved characters, in a non-existent world. I love GOT as much as the next fan but let’s not get carried away here.

  • Dorian: Larry Williams has always had shonky analysis and bad attention to detail. His reviews were fun when he was enthusiastic about the show, but in Season 2 its clear his own made up expectations poisoned that enthusiasm.

    Agreed. More than once he has claimed something didn’t work and claimed it would have been better if motivated by X, only he didn’t pay attention enough to see the even was motivated by X. Or didn’t wait for the reveal in the next episode.

    Like him complaining about the RW was lame because the Lannister weren’t behind it. He’s too busy making his mac-n-cheese to pick up on the clues.

    I tried watching some of his Anime reviews and the same pattern emerges. He’s all excited about a show, then starts complaining the show isn’t following what he thinks should happen and eventually loses interest.

    I can respect he is losing interest in the show and doesn’t want to review it anymore, but he was the one who committed himself to weekly reviews. To leave those who were interested in his Episode 8 review in the dark, then claim he is being the bigger man by not responding tells me all I need to know about him.

    Wish him the best of luck, but I’m done with him too.

  • Derrida,

    It’s a shame that George R.R. Martin didn’t consult you, famed internet blowhard Derrida, on the finer points of writing a complex, interweaving tale that spans a vast world full of complex characters. As an expert on such things, I’m sure your assistance would have been much appreciated.

    In the meantime, there are book stores upon book stores full of much less frustrating fare that can satisfy your need for immediate gratification and story lines that are much easier for you to swallow. No need to exhaust yourself by trying to convince everyone else that the books are awful just because you wanna see the bad man die now and the good woman do the good thing as quickly as possible. Some of us don’t hinge our existences on how we think a story should go, instead letting an artist make art and consuming it as such.

  • loco73:
    As for “A Feast For Crows” I thought it was a wonderful change of pace in some aspects, as well as a type of mental break for a reader such as myself, who had been brutalized by the events in “A Storm Of Swords”. It sets up new and intersting plots and storylines, it presents other cultures and in general expands the world of “A Song Of Ice And Fire”.We get to see something new, something that enriches our experience as readers and hopefully where the show is concerned as viewers. If you ask me “A Feast For Crow” is the perfect anti-dote to “A Storm Of Swords”, wonderfully callibrated by Martin to counter-balance the intensity of “A Storm Of Swords”.I mean that as a compliment to the book, which by the way is not tame or quiet in any which way.

    “A Feast For Crows” has the unenviable task of being the “middle book” one which has to anchor the transition to the final novels in the ASOIF cycle.IT is very hard to follow-upon the highs delivered in “A Storm Of Swords”, but I thought that Martin did it, and brilliantly so.With “A Feast For Crows” he enriched the tapestry of his world, allowed me as a reader to expand my idea of what “A Song Of Ice And Fire” is, and better yet, enjoymy time spent in such a brilliantly created environment, populated with interesting people who I care about.As a reader I can ask no more than that.

    Well said. It’s what I was thinking but couldn’t describe.

    As for the Red Viper, he was dead before AFFC even started. We’ll get him next year.

  • I’ve watched 2 times already and I still feel sick. Like literaly sick, my chest still hurts.

    I’m just happy Cat gave that epic bitchslap to Lord Bolton before she went. Man that slap was epic.

    Rimshot

    Kudos!!! It was one of the most amazing episodes I’ve seen. You should be proud for beeing part of it… in a non-creepy way. Really, hats off!

    EDIT: I really, really REALLY hope they give us Lady Stoneheart at the very end of the season murdering some Freys.

  • Hawk,

    Strange that he/she picks on you for not spelling out “because” then goes and fails to spell out “equals”. Double standard?

  • zaprowsdower,

    I changed my post mentioning some of the things we have to look forward to next season after Neds Head said we have nothing left to look forward to.

    I honestly didn’t expect non book readers to be in this topic due to it clearly being stated for Book readers only.

  • Ser Bro:
    I’m convinced that people who complain about AFfC and ADwD are simply people who do not understand the concept of the long game.Just because there isn’t a ton of violence and bloodshed doesn’t make the books any less satisfying if you look at them in the context of the story. The political maneuvering and positioning and setting up of the story arch for TWoW and ADoS is necessary. This is a big world with lots of players and that necessitates what your average GIMME GIMME GIMME reader would call “filler”, even though the material stands up to almost any fantasy ever written. If you know George, you know that he’s a smart enough writer to understand the concept of the payoff. Stop whining just because OMG THE SHOW IS GONNA BE SO BORING BECAUSE PEOPLE WON’T DIE ALL THE TIME WAHHHHHHH. You’re not giving the artist the credit for the art he makes. I’m sure D&D will find ways to spruce up the show without deviating from the source material too much. This can easily be done. Stop acting like the show is suddenly going to turn into a courtroom procedural.

    Well said on a lot of levels.

    Because of the chronological way in which the show is expected to play out, there are also plenty of events that will take place in Seasons 4-5 that will be interesting, exciting, et cetera, and we’ll still see a lot of death. (Season 5 may see a bit less of that, but by then, that will seem almost like a break given this season and what may come next year.

    I do agree with some that the meanderings of Brienne (who I love) and Danys, as well as the Ironborn and Dornish, will be truncated somewhat – and as a result most of AFfC and ADwD could theoretically be done by the end of Season 5. They will almost certainly, however, ratchet up the Margaery-Cersei conflict in the coming season(s), given how well that stuff has played out so far. There’s much more to be done with them, with Jaime, with Osha/Rickon (perhaps), with Davos, Melisandre, Jon Snow.

    I have a feeling that it will not suck.

  • Baihu1983,

    Agreed. This is our playpen as stated in the OP. Just like we aren’t allowed to post in the unsullied recaps, people who don’t want to be spoiled should avoid these posts. :-/

  • Wow…I just wow. I reread the RW chapter like twice since reading it for the first time, and now that I watch it on TV it just has the same impact. Its horror translated seamlessly. My sister freaked out when Talisa was stabbed, and especially when Robb got hit by the arrows. Michelle Fairley is an icon for me thanks to her performance tonight, she did it perfectly. The agony Cat must’ve felt seeing Robb die keeps pushing me to the edge of tears. Just wow, GoT crew and cast deserve a standing ovation even if it is for such a dreading scene.

  • GreatJon of Slumber: with Osha/Rickon (perhaps),

    That’s one area I’m optimistic on, where the show could prove more satisfying than the books. Consult with George and write some stuff for those two to do, and I will be more than grateful.

    I’m also really looking forward to more Theon/Boy scenes next year, probably Boy will want to go Stark-hunting which could make for some tense scenes. It should prove more engaging for readers and nonreaders alike than more dungeon-based torture porn.

  • Ser Bro,

    It’s a shame that George R.R. Martin didn’t consult you, famed internet blowhard Derrida, on the finer points of writing a complex, interweaving tale

    There’s no need for consulting me. There was a need, however, for him to have a good editor.

    In the meantime, there are book stores upon book stores full of much less frustrating fare

    Well, almost anything would be less frustrating than this. I find poorly written bloated stories that have completely gone off the rails (like ASOIAF) very frustrating, and since there is practically nothing in all of literature that has gone off the rails in the same catastrophic manner as ASOIAF, I imagine I merely need to go into a bookstore and pick a book at random to find something less frustrating/better written.

    just because you wanna see the bad man die now and the good woman do the good thing as quickly as possible.

    Actually, I don’t want that. I’d just like a story that begins and ends in less than 7,000 pages and takes less than 20 years to be told. For example, in the form of a trilogy – as Martin himself planned to do. Very unreasonable on my part to expect this, I know.

    And it’s fascinating how Martin has lowered your standards of normalcy – now anything that happens in less than 5,000 pages is considered “as quickly as possible!” Fascinating. You might want to go to a bookstore, too, you’ll find great books by thousands of writers who are actually capable of telling a good story in less than 5,000 pages/2o years.

    Some of us don’t hinge our existences on how we think a story should go, instead letting an artist make art and consuming it as such.

    I don’t hinge my existence on how I think the story should go, I’m merely procrastinating a bit at work. And please – artist making art? If you think GRRM is an artist, then obviously ASOIAF and things like Terry Goodkind books are the only thing you’ve ever read. Don’t be ridiculous.

    If you want art, I’d recommend Paradise by Toni Morrison (Nobel Prize for Literature winner). Brilliant story, dozens upon dozens of amazing characters, layers upon layers of history, themes, ideas, amazing writing style, all in all an intelligent, enjoyable, thrilling, moving and beautiful reading experience – and imagine this! It didn’t take 5,000 pages to tell it! Just 300!

    Oh well, I guess that happens when you’re a competent author.

  • So my brother is unsullied and his reaction was really funny. He was like ,,I am so done with this show, I’m not gonna watch it ever again”. An hour later he came to me asking ,,So does this mean that Theon’s father and Joffrey are gonna die too?”. I was kind of surprised because he never cared for Stannis or Melisandre or Davos…but he seems to remember the whole leech thing…so if Balon dies next episode, he will for sure watch season 4, since he wouldn’t miss Joffrey’s death of course :D

  • Liz B.:
    Lina,

    I feel like the tile of next week’s episode makes it clear that we will see Lady Stoneheart next week. Because D&D tend to make titles mean more than one thing, and Mysha means “mother”, I think it’s a safe bet. It would also be virtually impossible to keep Michelle Fairley (sp?)’s filming next season a secret.

    How so? It’s only one scene, probably with no extras…the crew knows how to remain quiet.

  • Frost Nocturne,

    I think they omitted the drums for the sake of being able to hear the dialogue. I have trouble at times making out exact words without using close caption.

    I do like the extra oomph the boom doom boom doom has in the book but maybe this is another instance where some things don’t work as well on TV?

  • Regarding Coldhands: I would be shocked if D&D did not introduce him next season. By delaying Sam slaying the White Walker, they removed the need for Sam and Gilly to be helped out by Coldhands. But once Bran gets to the other side of the wall, he will need protection. I suspect it will go down somewhat like JamesL suggested above: Bran will be attacked by WWs or wights and Coldhands will rescue them the same way he rescued Sam in the book. We already saw his ravens (or crows?) in the previous episode. My (unsullied) boyfriend even asked me during that episode why it makes sense for birds to follow around White Walkers. I told him the birds would be explained, and I trust D&D not to leave that hanging.

  • Oh, but there’s a big difference!

    Lord of the Rings = 3 books. 1,200 or so pages.
    Star Wars = three movies.

    ASOIAF = five books so far, seven planned (or eight) / 5,000 pages so far, seven or eight thousand in the end (or more).

    And GRRM said it was supposed to be a trilogy.

    That was before he even finished the first book. By the time he finished the first book he realized it was going to be larger, originally 5. No one disagrees that the books are long, or that they expanded.

    It’s also obvious that if it takes someone 5,000 pages to barely come close to even the beginning of the resolution, then that someone is an incompetent author.

    Or he’s writing a very large story. People can close stories in 300 pages, hell people can close them in ten. Do you open up War in Peace then bitch when the story isn’t close to finishing ten pages in? Stories can be multiple lengths. They can be thousand of pages long. If you don’t like those stories, then why did you even pick the first one up?

    Lucas showed that it’s possible to tell a great story in three films. Tolkien showed that it’s possible to tell a great story and create a fascinating imaginative world in just three books that combine into “just” 1,200 pages.

    5,000 pages and still meandering all over the place, when the original plan was a trilogy, three books of 800-900 pages each = that’s incompetence. Gross incompetence.

    Well if you wish to believe that. There’s really nothing more to say, other then you took what should have been “I don’t like this” and turned into a passive aggressive bitchfest. Enjoy yourself!

  • AA,

    I think they decided to intro Coldhands next year like you theorize…
    To me it makes sense too.

    Coldhands is more important to Bran’ story than Sam’s. Plus I think Sam has more to do over the next couple seasons where Bra’s clan has fairly sparse source material for the next season.

    Although I will say that after reading ADWD I do not find Coldhands as interesting or integral as I originally thought he was.

  • The Purist,

    I really enjoyed this episode and felt it did the book justice. I also feel the series as a whole is a success. There are however a few things that I don’t fully feel is effective (agree with Ros).

    Since I really enjoyed this episode does that automatically label me as a fanboy? What’s the difference between a fanboy and someone who just enjoys the episode?

    You seem to like to throw labels around carelessly

  • Liz B.,

    Re: leaked info. Did anyone know about Drogo in the House of the Undying last year? That came as a surprise to me, although I had been wondering why he was still doing GoT panels at conventions even though his character was killed off.

    BTW, I know the above isn’t technically a spoiler as it’s already happened on the show. I only just want to avoid unsullied viewers understanding that another dead character may return in the show in the future.

  • babar: “A dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is considered a dull affair.”This is a wedding Khal Drogo would have loved to be invited to.

    I’m thinking only if he was on the brides side of things…..

  • I’m pretty sure it’s coming, there was an article months back about the filming and one local said something along the lines of “some guy got his head sewn on a horse”…

    clegane:
    to me at least,
    the Grey Wind / Robb head swap was powerful in the books because of Dany’s foreshadowing vision – which was not present in the show – where she saw a very sad wolf-headed king sitting at a dinner table or something, and I remember being impressed by this image and wondering what the heck it could mean, until finally it turned out that it was actually a very literal vision instead of some abstract symbol, and that blew my mind. So I think, adding it to the show without the vision, especially after the RW is already done, would not make too much sense.

  • Derrida,

    Haha, are you parading around your literary prowess? Please. Not every book we read has to be a Pulitzer Prize winner. I have those in my collections as well.

    It’s amazing that while you took the time to show how far above all of us you are in literary intelligence, you failed to see any significance from the fallout of The Red Wedding. You realize that A Feast of Crows was written on the same timeline as many parts of ASOS, right? Therefore that book isn’t going to show the direct impact of that event? Or did you forget the current uprising the North is having against the Freys/Boltons in ADWD, mainly becuase of said event?

    You claim most events in Martin’s books are done for “shock value”. I agree that Martin’s book are in no way immune from criticism (I have my gripes as well) but saying he only does thing for “shock value” is such a pathetic attempt at critical evalaution it makes your posts almost comical. In fact, they would be if you weren’t so incredibly serious. Now climb back to your ivory tower and stick your face in Dostoyevsky’s greatest works. I’m sure someone of your vast superior intellect is well versed on him.

  • The RW played out as horrific and brutal on the screen as on the page, well done to cast and crew, especially Richard, Michelle and Oona. I wasn’t expecting Talisa to be murdered, thought like others she was going to be Bolton hostage, therefore the shock of it really put my mind into overdrive so watching the rest of the Red Wedding was as if never knowing it had happened; almost. Catelyn’s bewilderment, anguish was wrenching to watch, and her mind shutting down at the end was brilliant, any intelligent person would realize she became insane (catatonic) at that moment. If Anne Hathaway can get an Oscar for one song, Michelle better and should recieve an Emmy for her performance in this episode alone, it was that good. David Bradley deserves an Emmy nom for his performance in this episode too, and yes it was that good.
    My mind is still so full of thoughts after watching this morning have to digest the rest of it.

  • Hawk,

    What crap, because people disagree with Elio they “can’t understand the point he’s making”, talk about condescending crap. I understand the point he’s trying to make, I simply completely disagree with him. GRRM’s so called “boldness” is no more bold than any other writer doing something unexpected. In his case it’s possibly less bold as it’s directly inspired by historic events in which guest rights were betrayed and the shock and fall out which came as a consequence of that.

    He mostly criticises the adaptation of the Red Wedding on purist points = Cat not clawing her face, there being no drums sounding throughout the massacre, there being no fight back from the Umbers and other House Stark bannermen, that the scene didn’t feel “operatic”, that the wedding is “happy” and not full of rubbish music, poor food etc. All of his judgements are based on it not being a word for word depiction on screen of what went on in the book and completely ignores the fact that half of the tension being ramped up in the book comes from Cat’s internal monologue, something which is incredibly difficult to change to depicted images.

  • I think Coldhands is coming later.. my guess is the Karl and Rast theory and Coldhands will save them or something.

  • Derrida,

    While I appreciate your attempt at belittling my interpretation and perception of art, as well as my tastes, it’s completely lost on me and does nothing but solidify you as a troll and a poor one at that. I’ve read Paradise, as well as a good majority of Toni Morrison’s work. You see, unlike you, I have the ability to read multiple types of literature without letting my inflated, elitist ego decide what I consider A) competent and B) art. Comparing a science-fiction/fantasy writer to an African-American novelist and somehow using that to gauge what is and isn’t competent art is quite possibly the most short-sighted, elitist thing I have ever read in my entire life. You’re under this strange impression that George R.R. Martin, Toni Morrison, or any other author owes readers a goddamn thing except a faithful representation of THEIR story. You live in this world where somehow the reader is the one who deserves the credit for judging the merits of a writer’s work. You’re a snob and I wish you would just hush forever.

    With all of that being said, please don’t respond to this because I have nothing more to say to you. I’m sure you’ve been cooking up a witty Dr. Seuss reference or a way to tell me to read some Maya Angelou, but much like your previous snide troll speak, it’s going to be completely lost on me.

  • Derrida,

    We get it, you dont like the books anymore, GRRM is terrible, you like to bitch and complain, blah whatever the fuck ever blah. Even a 12 year old, I dont think you’ve used that age to insult anyone with yet, would have the sense to walk away from something they hate so much. Yet here you are, still. Bitch after bitch, cry after cry. Whats the point when it ruins your day so much?

  • Derrida,

    If anything George got much more praise from “finer critics” for Dance than any other book he’s written.

    Furthermore, while he’s certainly not going for efficiency (a common trait for the epic fantasy genre), I feel that it’s wrong to compare this kind of story with something that can be told in 300 pages. There are tons of great, shorter stories but they aren’t the same kind of thing.

    Finally you seem to have a very weird definition of “art”. That’s the kind of definition you get from wannabe intellectuals that seek to differentiate themselves from the common rabble so I’d advise against arguing in such a way since you’ll come across as such.

  • Why are some assuming that “nothing happens” after the Red Wedding in the second part of aSoS? Come on!
    Epic battle(s) at the Wall!
    Jon becomes Lord Commando!
    The Mountain vs The Red Viper!
    Purple Wedding!
    Sansa, Little FInger and Lysa!
    Arya and the Hound!
    Tywin doesn’t shit gold!</b>

    Pardon the exclamation marks.

  • Am I the only bookreader who kind of knew Robb was going to die ever since Dany had the prophecy of the commander with a wolf for a head presiding over a skeleton army? I knew in my head that it was meant to portray Robb.I wasn’t sure how it would happen but I wasn’t completely surprised when I read it. Excuse me if I didn’t recall the prophecy correctly.

  • Even knowing this was going to happen, I cried. Well done, HBO. Good job to everyone (Richard, Michelle, Ona) for this great rendition, and thanks :)

    I must say, the Grey Wind part tore me apart. I’m a dog person and can’t stand to see an animal suffering, even if it’s made of pixels. I still haven’t see Lady’s death, I had to skip it three years ago XD

  • tysnow:
    If Anne Hathaway can get an Oscar for one song, Michelle better and should recieve an Emmy for her performance in this episode alone, it was that good.

    Best comment in the entire thread!

    Hawk: the bold choice to end this past episode would have been ending it w/ Arya taking the Hound’s axe to the back of the head, leaving viewers w/ the impression that she also was a casualty of the Red Wedding, only to reveal her still being alive next episode…

    Obviously, there are different opinions about this. I wasn’t fooled at all by Arya’s “axe to the head” in the books. Not sure why but I never believed that the Hound killed her. I didn’t think it was clever or “bold” in the books and was glad that the show chose a different tactic. A difference of opinion.

  • Could people please stop acting as if those who think ADWD/AFFC were far worse books than the others are idiots? I don’t think you’re idiots if you like them. It’s OK to have preferences. I agree with Derrida – the books would have been far tighter, and the arcs much more satisfying if GRRM had stuck to his original plans better. Certain things GRRM himself has said seem to indicate he might agree with this himself (for example he regrets splitting the book). We know that GRRM had an original plan. We know essentially that what he set into motion in the very first books was meant to be completed relatively quickly. Hence, IMO, it’s totally reasonable to be frustrated when we have things like YG pop up, or when we spend as many pages doing essentially nothing as we did doing a shit ton. I don’t care about battles, honestly. But I do care about plot progression, themes, and character.

    Now do I think ADWD/aFFC were steaming piles of crap? no. There were some really interesting things that happened, eventually, particularly in the northern story and eventually in Dany’s story. I actually rather enjoyed ADWD at the time. However, unlike the first three books which I’ve read about 4 times each, I’ve never felt an impulse to reread ADWD or AFFC. I maintain that a lot of it was GRRM marking time in certain PoV’s – Dany, Jon, Cersei, Brienne, Sam, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion: each of these plots clearly had a place that GRRM wanted to “get to” – those were the places he’d planned to skip to with the 5yr gap – but instead we got to see them meander or do very little.

    And unfortunately marking time is not something you can really do in TV. That’s one of the main reasons people are so pissed off about the Theon story this season. There’s no progression. Just mindless violence with no resolution.

    Now… I have to say given what D&D have done so far they actually haven’t shown much willingness to drastically alter plot (Talisa is the closest they’ve come and really that wasn’t much of a departure). Therefore yeah, they probably will leave in most of the “major” events and characters. Honestly I think it would be better if they changed more.

  • mariamb18: didn’t think it was clever or “bold” in the books and was glad that the show chose a different tactic. A difference of opinion.

    I agree. That was a cheapshot in the books because the way it was written really made it seem as if he had killed her, but if you spend 1 second thinking about it, you’d realize there was no point whatsoever in the Hound killing Arya. I mean what point could there be? The hound wants ransom money. Killing her would be idiotic and probably dangerous for him. So yeah I’m glad they skipped it. GRRM is a bit too in love with cliffhangers sometimes. “She screamed a word” comes to mind as well.

  • queenofthorns:
    Now do I think ADWD/aFFC were steaming piles of crap?no.There were some really interesting things that happened, eventually, particularly in the northern story and eventually in Dany’s story.I actually rather enjoyed ADWD at the time.However, unlike the first three books which I’ve read about 4 times each, I’ve never felt an impulse to reread ADWD or AFFC. I maintain that a lot of it was GRRM marking time in certain PoV’s – Dany, Jon, Cersei, Brienne, Sam, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion: each of these plots clearly had a place that GRRM wanted to “get to” – those were the places he’d planned to skip to with the 5yr gap – but instead we got to see them meander or do very little.

    And unfortunately marking time is not something you can really do in TV.That’s one of the main reasons people are so pissed off about the Theon story this season.There’s no progression.Just mindless violence with no resolution.

    As someone who really enjoyed AFFC & ADWD, I’d still have to ABSOLUTELY agree with what you’ve said. Thank you for wording your criticism of those books so intelligently without resorting to childishness as others often do.

  • queenofthorns,

    I remember D&D (or the staff) saying that they’re going to diverge from the books more and more. Someone could perhaps link the interview(s?).

  • Derrida,

    Gross incompetence? Really?

    It’s probably a good idea you stop reading the series, it sounds like it’s too adult for you anyway. I was going to recommend something more on your reading level…Dr. Suess for example.. but since his poems are usually longer and more complex than other poems, I guess he’s incompetent too?

  • queenofthorns,

    the Hound is a character of questionable motives at this time in the novels, so it does make sense for him to kill Arya there…he can no longer ransom her to her family, and he can’t very well take her back to King’s Landing, since he is on the lam himself…since both of them were incognito at the Twins, he could have killed her w/ no danger to himself, and she would have been just a nameless casualty of the slaughter…

  • Loved the episode but I felt the wedding and episode missed couple of things:

    – First of all Jon Umber flipping tables and causing havoc even though he was really drunk. Small stuff, but for me Jon Umber trying to save his king was a big moment in the books. Now no one came to Robb’s aid. Overall felt that the guests didn’t fight back at all and were just being slaughtered left and right. While the scene was still very powerful, I felt that in the books it was even more powerful with all of Robb’s companions being killed as well. Now we were stuck with people that didn’t have any names besides Talisa, Robb and Catelyn.

    – Grey Wind locked in a cage. While I loved Grey Wind’s eyes slowly closing, I really missed Grey Wind actually being able to fight back. Now he was just a fish in a barrel. Also missed Grey Wind meeting up with the Frey’s on the bridge, as well as Robb being worried about Grey Wind in the end.

    – Coldhands. Where is he?

    – Jon’s fight scene looked really awkward, but I guess that was due to Kit’s injury.

    Overall it was those small subtle additions that I felt that could and would have added more to the episode, building up to that gut wrenching moment where Black Walder Frey(?) stabs Talisa repeteadly in her pregnant stomach. But I guess I’m more in the Westeros.org camp than your average WiC.net poster.

  • Too everyone who doesn’t enjoy AFFC and ADWD as much as the others: I always looked at it as AGOT was like a powderkeg being lit…. ACOK is the fuse heading toward the keg and ASOS is the powderkeg exploding. Then it resets and we’re in the second half of the story… AFFC is a new powderkeg being lit… (setting up storyline and positioning the characters)… ADWD is the fuse heading toward the keg again…. and I feel the next book or 2 will be equivalent to ASOS as far as everything hitting the fan. So while I understand that after ASOS, everything slows down immensely…but that’s not to say it’s not as good.

  • Wow…. Only just watched it and I’ve got to say it’s an absolute masterpiece! Surpassed all expectations even after I’d read some of the comments on here at work… the tension generated throughout the whole episode was unbearable!

    I really didn’t think it would affect me so much having read the books, but it had me crying like a baby!

    Loved some of the small touches like Edmure’s delight when he first sees Roslin, and what a great decision by D&D to have the Yunkai skirmish end in a mini-cliffhanger… I bet many Unsullied where expecting the episodes big event to happen over there at that point!

    Honestly I don’t get some of the criticisms on here, yes I get that people have different opinions and some would prefer a word-for-word retelling of the books, but I’m currently sitting here having just watched what I believe to be the greatest TV episode I’ve ever seen!

  • Flouride,

    The show staged the whole thing as a cruel, callous slaughter, not a dramatic fight. Thinking about it, I actually like this approach more.

  • A Storm of S-Words,

    In regards Cersei’s and Tywin’s reaction to Jaime returning home….I think it will be the opposite. I think Jaime is expecting relief and joy from Cersei but he wont’ get it. At a minimum Cersei will be reserved and then cold once she realizes he’s lost his hand (which is how it played out in the books, right?). Plus I think they will show Jaime (along with Tyrion) being horrified by the events at the Red Wedding and Cersei will be overjoyed. He will be disgusted by her reveling in the murders and it will drive a wedge between them. Whatever happens, I don’t think we’ll see a joyful reunion with Cersei and Jaime. I think Tywin will be glad but very, very cold. The character is completely without humor or joy so a “prodigal son” welcome just doesn’t make sense. Tywin will probably analyze Jaime’s changed circumstances in his usual brutal, verbal fashion. I’m betting he’ll say something like the following:

    ‘…..the loss of your hand means you can’t lead Lannister troops in battle, which is a major drawback and how could you have let it happen? The good news is it does exempt you from going back to the Kingsguard, which means you can now marry. And thank the gods they didn’t cut off your cock so you can now produce children that can run things at Casterly Rock and give me grandchildren that don’t come from Tyrion the abomination who routinely embarrasses me, then again, your being crippled will be embarrassing in its own way now too…..oh, well, we will make do…..’

    Jaime will be hurt that Cersei and his Father are incapable of even a smidgen empathy and sympathy for his situation, particularly since the events that led to him to this fate was on their behalf. The only one happy and relieved to see Jaime will be Tyrion, which will make their split in S4 all that much harder to watch.

  • I’ve read the books. Twice. There’s my bona fides.

    And I believe I understand Martin’s decisions as a writer. After all, hee’s laid them out in interviews. To paraphrase: he wants to confound the reader’s expectations of heroic journey. Sure enough, he does exactly that time and again.

    Which is why I constantly throw my hands in the air when I peruse these forums.

    Why are so many of you constantly whinging about “changes” to the story. The story has been “changed” from the moment it first betrayed your expectations and lopped off the head of the “protagonist”.

    So you adapted as a reader, figuring it was just a bump in the literary road. You quickly acquired new expectations, and how did those ones work out?
    Robb Stark avenges his dad? Nope.
    Jaime Lannister is a one-dimensional heel? Nope.
    Tyrion finally gets the respect he’s due? Nope.

    And some more current assumptions:
    Jon Snow is destined for greatness? If he pulls off that trick now (as of the last book), it’ll be in some way you didn’t write in your head.
    Bran will become a powerful, all-seeing awesome wizard? Maybe, but his mentor is not exactly Gandalf the Grey, is he? And will Hodor get any say in his own part? “Hodor,” perhaps?
    Brienne is this awesome female version of the questing knight, and will rescue the damsel from the tower? How’s that working out so far?
    The Hound will redeem himself as a champion for the good side? Will he, or has a lifetime’s worth of PTSD seen the end of his arc?
    Daenerys will come and make it all better? Seriously, have you been paying attention to all the by-stories about dragons? Torching thousands. Placing the rest in thrall. But not when Dany controls them, right? How have best intentions been working out?

    And last but not least
    Robb’s heir. Wolfie Jr, in Jeyne/Talisa’s tummy. This one’s earned so much theory and conjecture you’d think it was a three thousand year old religion. And when Martin finally confirms it for you: YES, there is a bun in the oven… then he pulls the rug right out. Why? Because he sees your expectations a mile away. Talisa had to die or you guys would have kept crapping on about whether Jeyne was pregnant.

    “But, but Benioff and Weiss, it’s them who made Talisa preggers and then killed her off,” you say.

    “No,” I try to remind you. They are not changing Martin’s books. They love his books. He writes for their show. What they’re doing is simply getting to the same end via a shortened path. For better or worse. But it’s not a different story – it’s an abbreviated version.

    Talisa was an abbreviation for “Jeyne’s mother was a prick.”
    Last Hearth is an abbreviation for “Greatjohn captive” + “mute Wik” + “Skagos”.
    And does it matter that Robb didn’t write the letter proclaiming his line of succession? Apparently not. Apparently the same end can be gotten by another route.

    My point? Stop waving the books about like they’re some frikken bible, and take a moment to think about which of your culturally predetermined expectations are most at risk of being upturned next.

  • barak,

    It was a cruel slaughter in the books, the only ones who fought back were Grey Wind and Greatjon Umber. And Dacey Mormont, to some extent.

    It was a very good depiction of the Red Wedding. I’m just sad that it was a very good depiction of the Red Wedding.

  • I’m already looking forward to ep 9 of next season, I’m pretty sure we will discuss where whores go

  • If they decide to cut UnCat you think they would replace her with Blackfish. That could be pretty awesome, really all they need is someone going on a crusade killing Frey’s. I’m not sure what GRRM’s plan is for him though so it could have future ramifications.