Inside the Episode: “The Rains of Castamere”
By Ours is the Fury on in Media.

Executive producers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss provide their weekly insight in “Inside the Episode,” discussing Robb and Catelyn’s damaged relationship, and Arya’s fears. For “The Rains of Castamere,” there is also a bonus video focused on the Red Wedding.


106 Comments

  1. Rad1999
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor.

  2. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink
  3. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Hahaha, epic.

  4. Jambo
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    GRRM’s reaction to the episode:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4DmoIQOuWQ

  5. Very Sad Hollyoak
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    Wonderful to hear D&D speak a little more about this episode and Richard and Michelle. Must’ve been brutal for them, too, as writers.

    I think they both need a long vacation.

    Wait–no…sorry guys. You have more episodes to film

  6. Shmurb
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Good interviews. It’s curious though, I’d be interested to know how collecting material for various interviews works. The stuff they said in these HBO “Inside the Episode” clips were written down verbatim, and I’ve seen them as answers to questions in other “exclusive” interviews on different sites in the past couple days. So how does that work?

  7. Deekan
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    Dat Catelyn cry… *shudders*

  8. Very Sad Hollyoak
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Jambo:
    GRRM’s reaction to the episode:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4DmoIQOuWQ

    That’s pretty frikking funny.

  9. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Weiss and Benioff have a little bit of a sadistic side it seems. This was the one scene they wanted to get to, the one scene that made them want to do the show and one of the scenes that they love the most and I’m thinking, what?

    This is what you wanted to get to? The Starks getting brutally murdered, the Stark family getting basically exterminated. The kids surviving don’t count, even if they get some kind of revenge, the Starks aren’t the Starks anymore. Winterfell is burned down to the ground. The Family that was THE ruler once. Arya once again witnessing her family getting butchered. And the writing duo know how painful this part is and yet this was the moment they were waiting for. When millions of viewers/noon book readers get to watch in horror as the Starks get slaughtered?

    I would have dreaded this moment as a show writer/runner. Being scared as to the repercussions of a scene like that.

    Im one of the Unsullied, so no spoilers. Yes I know things can change and maybe the Starks will somehow become a family to reckon with once again but I seriously doubt it. And its funny how I think back to episode 9 of season one when Ned got his head chopped of and allot of bookreaders were like “Stay with the show, it will get better!” When exactly does it get better? Its been two seasons since that episode. So far it has been some minor victories for the good guys. Danys victory over the slave owners was badass but that doesnt count, the slave owners we dont care about at all. Joffrey, Balon, Cersei and now Walter Frey, now those guys we have followed and despised for a while. Kill them!

    Its funny how I dont actually feel any animosity towards Tywin. Maybe because he is such a strategic mind and does all of what he does to win the war. While the other characters I mentioned do it for greed, evil,childish nonsense and so on.

    Love the show, Im not going to stop watching it any time soon. Its my favorite show on TV right now. There are only two characters whose death could get me to stop watching this show. But Im not going to tell who they are for risk of someone knowingly or unknowingly foreshadowing something.

    This was a long one, sorry. But one last thing. The fight scene of the three Musketeers aka Grey Worm, Jorah and Naharis. AWESOME! Was waiting for a fightscene with either of those characters and to get to see them all fight in one scene back to back was even more brilliant! Hopefully we will get more of them fighting and hopefully Barristan will join them too.

  10. Baihu1983
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Would enjoy these more if they had the cast talking.

  11. kelly
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Interesting news. Not sure how this bodes forLady Stoneheart showing up this season or next.

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/04/michelle-fairley-suits/

  12. Al Swearengen
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    I’ve not been watching these “inside the episode” should I ?

  13. Al Swearengen
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Jambo:
    GRRM’s reaction to the episode:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4DmoIQOuWQ

    LMAO

  14. Michael274
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Baihu1983,

    They usually had the directors and other crew members talk in the inside episodes,not sure why it’s not the case now .

  15. John
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S

    And its funny how I think back to episode 9 of season one when Ned got his head chopped of and allot of bookreaders were like “Stay with the show, it will get better!” When exactly does it get better? Its been two seasons since that episode.

    We [sullied] were never saying it well get better for the Starks ;-)
    But the show / story itself will get better as it will get more complexe and you get new characters to love (or hate) and different views on old characters (e.g. Jamie this season). It won’t be a spoiler to say that the show will continue this way…

  16. Vidluv
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    And its funny how I think back to episode 9 of season one when Ned got his head chopped of and allot of bookreaders were like “Stay with the show, it will get better!” When exactly does it get better? Its been two seasons since that episode. So far it has been some minor victories for the good guys. Danys victory over the slave owners was badass but that doesnt count, the slave owners we dont care about at all. Joffrey, Balon, Cersei and now Walter Frey, now those guys we have followed and despised for a while. Kill them!

    The flaw in your analysis is believing that there are “good guys” and “bad guys.” That only happens in fiction. In real life, there are no “good guys” or “bad guys” — there are just people who make decisions and live (or die) with the consequences. One of the themes of GoT is that there is no moral/ethical absolute. Everyone follows different sets of morals (Jamie, Tyrion, Arya, and Dany are all great examples of this), and none of them are “true” morals, because those don’t exist. I would passionately argue, for example, that Cersei is not evil or bad. She does what she does for a host of reasons, many of them weak because of her overestimation of herself and distrust of others, and her actions certainly have very harsh consequences, but they are not any more evil than actions that Dany has taken. Same for Tywin. Joffrey, of course, is an exception, since he is clearly a sociopath and has no ability to feel empathy for others.

    Also, I would like to add that the story of ASoIaF/GoT would be horribly boring and not at all realistic if all the people you consider “bad” were to be killed off. Conflict is central to any good dramatic story, and for conflict you need opposing sides, and when there are opposing sides, readers and viewers will inevitably understand one as “more moral/good” and one as “less moral/bad” — though if it is a good story, they will differ upon which is which, as we in the world of GoT do.

    To sum up, your idea that things need to “get better” or that all of the “bad guys” need to die is wrong in all sorts of ways and would ruin the story that we all love.

  17. Clara
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    I think that it’s useful to remember there’s a distinct lack of real justice in this world, much like our own.
    That said there are some deaths coming up that I’m looking forward too: Joff, Tywin (although that may be disgusting if it remains unchanged). Also no confirmed Stark deaths after this so far.

  18. The Lightning Lord
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    If you should know anything about this show, it’s that you shouldn’t expect anything, good or bad. What makes you think the Starks are all gone? They are not all exterminated; Bran, Rickon, Arya, and even Sansa surviving counts a great deal, actually, and what about Jon? As Ned said, He IS a Stark – he might not have the name, but he has the blood. As an entity they are not gone, either. As a political entity, yes. But not as a familial entity. As long as Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon Stark are alive, the Stark name lives, just as the Targaryen lineage lives on with Dany.

  19. Isabelle
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m so glad that they did that second video–really, really moving stuff, particularly the shots of D&D just sort of watching and taking in their actors/crew work and then laugh in-between takes. I hope they do something even more in-depth for the DVD–about crafting and shooting the scene, and about the sense of kinship they’ve cultivated with the people they’ve worked with. Whether it was intentional or not, it translated incredibly well on the screen.

    And Michelle’s scream, my god. Really, a cry of utter, unimaginable grief and agony. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to watch it without it getting to me. It sort of lingers in your ears after the shot cuts off and you have to jolt yourself out of it, try and focus on which Freys you want to hunt down. Masterfully done.

  20. Omar Brown
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Baihu1983:
    Would enjoy these more if they had the cast talking.

    I want Michelle and Richard on the commentary track for this episode!

  21. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Vidluv: Everyone follows different sets of morals (Jamie, Tyrion, Arya, and Dany are all great examples

    I didnt mean good guys as in people who dont have any flaws or dont do bad things. I mean overall good, as in Dany, Robb, Arya, Snow and so on. Dont kid yourself that there arent good guys or bad guys at all in this world. There are, there just not knights in shining armor who cant do wrong. And Cersei is twisted in o so many ways. Shes maybe not evil but she sure is something. Oh, your husband cheated on you so now you have to make Sansas life a living hell and do the same to your little brother and so on and so on. Just because there is a cause for what the characters do doesnt mean their not bad.

    I get what people mean when they say that this is more realistic because good guys dont always survive. But I would argue that A Song of Ice and Fire is just as unrealistic as other fantasy stories in some ways. Its just that this is the opposite. Good guys dont always win (live), in this world bad guys always win (live) exceptions sure. But the death ratio between good guys and bad guys is like 10:1.

  22. Isabelle
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Baihu1983,

    Hopefully they’ll do something more in-depth for the DVD! They could do interviews, analysis and the like with everyone involved–actors, crew, showrunners, perhaps GRRM or even some fans. Would love to hear from Michael McElhatton on what it was like to kill the King in the North!!

  23. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    Appreciate your perspective. Yeah, it takes a strong heart to persevere in the ASoI&F world. It ain’t for the feint of heart, that’s for sure, and it does take a bit of sadistic ambition to realize the events from this dark series onscreen. I believe Shakespeare would have been proud to read/see this…it has much Montague vs Capulet (from R&J) as well as mad kings and conniving politics.

    I’ve always viewed ASoI&F as a snippet in the multi-millenia timeline of the Starks, the family at the center of the series. The Starks have never ruled Westeros, only the North (although there is some argument that Ned Stark could have ruled after Jaime slew the Mad King Targaryen…instead he acquiesed to his friend Robert who was good commander but a lousy king). In some sense, after the RW, this is now a story of survival (and maybe ultimate revenge) for the Starks. Their history is long and honorable….and due to their idealism and honor (and ignorance) they have almost perished …mayhaps we’ll see a rebirth of sorts as the new generation discovers their own path home….

  24. gisizzlah
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    I just felt it all over again…… i…i..i..i cant… ugh!!

    I remember when i first read it.. i literally threw the book on the other side of the room screaming…lol..

    side note: It probably late news… but was that Coldplay’s drummer?

  25. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    The Lightning Lord:
    Nikola S,

    If you should know anything about this show, it’s that you shouldn’t expect anything, good or bad. What makes you think the Starks are all gone? They are not all exterminated; Bran, Rickon, Arya, and even Sansa surviving counts a great deal, actually, and what about Jon? As Ned said, He IS a Stark – he might not have the name, but he has the blood. As an entity they are not gone, either. As a political entity, yes. But not as a familial entity. As long as Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon Stark are alive, the Stark name lives, just as the Targaryen lineage lives on with Dany.

    Its like I said. The children might get their revenge in some way but it sure feels like the Stark family, as in a family in power, is gone. Maybe for good or at least 300 years away from getting back to where they were. Im not saying the kids wont get back together again. Some of them might and Im hopping they will, they are my favorite family, but they are not in the game anymore.

    Hell, maybe they can join Danys army, she sure is getting allot more followers every day =D

  26. A wildling Bastard
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    hahahaha i see what you did there

  27. HB
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    The first thing I thought when I heard the show got picked up was: “I hope they’ll get to the red wedding”.

    It’s not about being sadistic. It’s because it is such an iconic scene. And it’s a very powerful scene. It manages to evoke a really strong, visceral and emotional reaction. It’s something you remember.

    It is the same with other shows, the really, heavy emotional things get remembered and are what a show is lauded for. Take M*A*S*H for instance, what people remember about that is the death of Henry Blake. The same goes for shows like Buffy, Angel, Lost and Spartacus.

  28. Tywin26
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    A little cover with a few images of the last episode.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj6_bmzYfVM

  29. Vidluv
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: I didnt mean good guys as in people who dont have any flaws or dont do bad things. I mean overall good, as in Dany, Robb, Arya, Snow and so on. Dont kid yourself that there arent good guys or bad guys at all in this world. There are, there just not knights in shining armor who cant do wrong. And Cersei is twisted in o so many ways. Shes maybe not evil but she sure is something. Oh, your husband cheated on you so now you have to make Sansas life a living hell and do the same to your little brother and so on and so on. Just because there is a cause for what the characters do doesnt mean their not bad.

    I get what people mean when they say that this is more realistic because good guys dont always survive. But I would argue that A Song of Ice and Fire is just as unrealistic as other fantasy stories in some ways. Its just that this is the opposite. Good guys dont always win (live), in this world bad guys always win (live) exceptions sure. But the death ratio between good guys and bad guys is like 10:1.

    I get what you’re saying, but you’re wrong, and you missed the entire point.

  30. bird
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    kelly,

    Considering Conleth Hill is a reoccuring member of the suits cast, it likely has a production schedule that lines up ok with Game of Thrones. So it shouldn’t have any impact on the lady stoneheart storyline.

  31. WompWomp
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    HB:
    Nikola S,
    It’s not about being sadistic. It’s because it is such an iconic scene. And it’s a very powerful scene. It manages to evoke a really strong, visceral and emotional reaction. It’s something you remember.

    Thank you for saying it before I could get in a few shots. Both Ned’s end and the Red Wedding are mindbending moments, defying decades of tropes we’ve taken as givens to the point of acceptance. It’s frustrating to see people make such obtuse character judgments of the showrunners based on the fact they were excited to bring such iconic events to the screen. The cries of viewers the world over dignify their gestating excitement. Now awe of that scene is even more of a global phenomenon, brought to readers and viewers alike through D&D’s (& Co.’s) manic persistence in making the show a reality.

  32. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    again, stick with it to the very end , we’re not even halfway through yet, of course things, especially in this world, were gonna get bad. Still, i wouldnt be suprised if the way you feel is gone by next week. This was many most book readers felt, and then they were back with the books a week later. We’re still only halfway through storm of swords, the best book so far. There is some awesome stuff coming.
    As for the whole sadistic side of d+d, the fact that they wanted to get to the RW, then it would all be worth in the end, does not prove this. Firstly, they didnt want to do it for the massacre itself, they wanted to do it because no major shows have ever done that on tv so far, and the shock factor would be amazing. Secondly, scenes like this can also be, in their own way, really enjoyable. Of course i dont enjoy seeing ned die, but his death scene is one of the best scenes the show has ever made. The same is true in the book with the RW (and now on the TV show) not only is it shocking and unexpected, but it is also one of the best written chapters in the book, not only is it heart wrenching and shocking, its epic (the tv show lost some of its epicness, i thought in favour of shock, but a lot of it is still there) it is for that reason, that even though robb was one of my faovurite characters, i frequently re-read the chapter. Its a masterpiece, and thats why they wanted to put it on tv.
    Still, i feel that things like this are at the heart of the story, you wouldnt form such an attachment with the characters and the story and the characters, i think, if you knew that people wont be killed off, and the story is a lot more predictable.

  33. Summer Is Coming
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Michelle Fairley deserves the Emmy for Supporting Actress! I’m gonna cry if she wins! Altough this season she was slightly underused, “The Rains of Castamere” was her moment and she was magnificent! *bow*

  34. Youssef
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: I didnt mean good guys as in people who dont have any flaws or dont do bad things. I mean overall good, as in Dany, Robb, Arya, Snow and so on. Dont kid yourself that there arent good guys or bad guys at all in this world. There are, there just not knights in shining armor who cant do wrong. And Cersei is twisted in o so many ways. Shes maybe not evil but she sure is something. Oh, your husband cheated on you so now you have to make Sansas life a living hell and do the same to your little brother and so on and so on. Just because there is a cause for what the characters do doesnt mean their not bad.

    I get what people mean when they say that this is more realistic because good guys dont always survive. But I would argue that A Song of Ice and Fire is just as unrealistic as other fantasy stories in some ways. Its just that this is the opposite. Good guys dont always win (live), in this world bad guys always win (live) exceptions sure. But the death ratio between good guys and bad guys is like 10:1.

    I couldn’t have said it better myself.

  35. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    This is what you wanted to get to?

    From a writer’s standpoint and a producer of film/tv, where the main concern is to create gut wrenching drama, it makes perfect sense for them to want to get there. It’s not like they don’t care for the characters or actors. One of them teared up, is it David? (since they both start with D, I forget which one is which) I’m sure they are not the only ones in Hollywood who wanted to make these books and that particular scene happen. Heck, the actors wanted to get to that scene. I would have killed (not really, but you know what I mean) to play the role of Catelyn. It’s the kind of stuff that really pushes them as actors and shows just how good they are. Above all, actors, writers and producers want you to feel something. As hard as it is to watch, they achieved their goal admirably.

  36. jkb
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    offtopic: Ramin Djawadi – Mhysa

    HOLY SHIT!

  37. Ben Watson
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    I understand all your feels man, but there really are no good guys or bad guys. Or protagonists. We were introduced to Westeros through Ned Stark’s eyes, yes, but after the first season he is no more. :) If anybody is the protagonist it’s the character with the most screen time and lines, Tyrion, which makes the Lannisters the “good guys” or at least the main family. (But they really aren’t either.)

    It’s easy to root for the Starks I’m sure, but the whole of the story and journey isn’t really about them entirely.

    (Also, when people said it gets “better,” that doesn’t mean it gets happier or the kinder characters start having better luck, or anything like that.)

    Nikola S:
    Weiss and Benioff have a little bit of a sadistic side it seems. This was the one scene they wanted to get to, the one scene that made them want to do the show and one of the scenes that they love the most and I’m thinking, what?

    This is what you wanted to get to? The Starks getting brutally murdered, the Stark family getting basically exterminated. The kids surviving don’t count, even if they get some kind of revenge, the Starks aren’t the Starks anymore. Winterfell is burned down to the ground. The Family that was THE ruler once. Arya once again witnessing her family getting butchered. And the writing duo know how painful this part is and yet this was the moment they were waiting for. When millions of viewers/noon book readers get to watch in horror as the Starks get slaughtered?

    I would have dreaded this moment as a show writer/runner. Being scared as to the repercussions of a scene like that.

    Im one of the Unsullied, so no spoilers. Yes I know things can change and maybe the Starks will somehow become a family to reckon with once again but I seriously doubt it. And its funny how I think back to episode 9 of season one when Ned got his head chopped of and allot of bookreaders were like “Stay with the show, it will get better!” When exactly does it get better? Its been two seasons since that episode. So far it has been some minor victories for the good guys. Danys victory over the slave owners was badass but that doesnt count, the slave owners we dont care about at all. Joffrey, Balon, Cersei and now Walter Frey, now those guys we have followed and despised for a while. Kill them!

    Its funny how I dont actually feel any animosity towards Tywin. Maybe because he is such a strategic mind and does all of what he does to win the war. While the other characters I mentioned do it for greed, evil,childish nonsense and so on.

    Love the show, Im not going to stop watching it any time soon. Its my favorite show on TV right now. There are only two characters whose death could get me to stop watching this show. But Im not going to tell who they are for risk of someone knowingly or unknowingly foreshadowing something.

    This was a long one, sorry. But one last thing. The fight scene of the three Musketeers aka Grey Worm, Jorah and Naharis. AWESOME! Was waiting for a fightscene with either of those characters and to get to see them all fight in one scene back to back was even more brilliant! Hopefully we will get more of them fighting and hopefully Barristan will join them too.

  38. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    did anyone else think in the first video when they were playing the rains of castamere when commentating on the massacre itself it was better lol

  39. kelly
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Exactly! Couldn’t agree more. The fact that you, Nikola, feel so strongly about the scene (even if it is negative) means the producers and actors did their jobs very well.

  40. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown,

    I think they haven’t made video interviews for a couple of reasons….1) they are busy and moving on to other parts or taking a break before beginning new projects and/or 2) the actors were really exhausted emotionally after doing this scene. There was something in an interview about D&D calling Michelle and she didn’t respond for weeks. She said it was because she was still emotionally devastated to even speak to anyone involved with GOT. Richard Madden said he was so affected that he left the set and immediately got on a plane to London. He didn’t stay behind to say goodbye at the final get together it was so bad.

    I think viewers don’t understand (and no offense meant by this statement) that creating such scene is very difficult for most actors because they do really experience those emotions. They are truly emoting and they have to do it repeatedly until the director is satisfied. Try it yourself in front of the mirror. Try doing the little bit that Catelyn does at the end about 10 to 15 times and try to do it with the same intensity. You’ll be exhausted, I guarantee. Well, they spent an entire week shooting that one scene. I shudder to think of how Michelle had to get herself to “that place” to shoot that scene over and over and over.

  41. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Vidluv: I get what you’re saying, but you’re wrong, and you missed the entire point.

    No Im not and no I didnt. I just have an opinion that differs from yours =)

  42. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Ben Watson:

    (Also, when people said it gets “better,” that doesn’t mean it gets happier or the kinder characters start having better luck, or anything like that.)

    Apparently not =P

  43. kelly
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    bird:

    Very good point. I didn’t even think about that. I firmly believe that Lady Stoneheart opening her eyes will be the last frame of next week’s finale. It just fits too perfectly with the title of episode, the foreshadowing with Beric, and the pattern of ending the seasons with the supernatural. I hope she looks super creepy. I didn’t much care for her in the books so far but for some reason I think the character will work better for television.

  44. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    NomadicDirewolf:
    Nikola S,

    again, stick with it to the very end , we’re not even halfway through yet,of course things, especially in this world, were gonna get bad. Still, i wouldnt be suprised if the way you feel is gone by next week. This was many most book readers felt, and then they were back with the books a week later. We’re still only halfway through storm of swords, the best book so far. There is some awesome stuff coming.
    As for the whole sadistic side of d+d, the fact that they wanted to get to the RW, then it would all be worth in the end, does not prove this. Firstly, they didnt want to do it for the massacre itself, they wanted to do it because no major shows have ever done that on tv so far, and the shock factor would be amazing. Secondly, scenes like this can also be, in their own way, really enjoyable. Of course i dont enjoy seeing ned die, but his death scene is one of the best scenes the show has ever made. The same is true in the book with the RW (and now on the TV show) not only is it shocking and unexpected, but it is also one of the best written chapters in the book, not only is it heart wrenching and shocking, its epic (the tv show lost some of its epicness, i thought in favour of shock, but a lot of it is still there) it is for that reason, that even though robb was one of my faovurite characters, i frequently re-read the chapter. Its a masterpiece, and thats why they wanted to put it on tv.
    Still, i feel that things like this are at the heart of the story, you wouldnt form such an attachment with the characters and the story and the characters, i think, if you knew that people wont be killed off, and the story is a lotmore predictable.

    Im sticking with it, not even close to leaving. =)

    You could say that you wouldn’t attach yourself to characters BECAUSE GRRM is killing them off so frequently. Your afraid to get attached because they might get there throat cut in the next episode.

    I get what you guys are saying about the writers love for the scene. Still, I think there is a sprinkle of sadism in them =)

  45. DarkRavenous
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Michelle really delivered in this episode. Just like she always does. Such a powerful moment that everyone I know who watches the show cannot stop talking about it. The episode left me feeling drained but also relieved that they nailed the red wedding. They made it tragic, unnerving and emotional, while managing to add their own twist that book readers might not have seen coming. A truly remarkable episode.

  46. DarkRavenous
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Michelle really delivered in this episode. Just like she always does. The episode left me feeling drained but also relieved that they nailed the red wedding. They made it tragic, unnerving and emotional, while managing to add their own twist that book readers might not have seen coming. A truly remarkable episode.

  47. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    Nikola S,

    From a writer’s standpoint and a producer of film/tv, where the main concern is to create gut wrenching drama, it makes perfect sense for them to want to get there.It’s not like they don’t care for the characters or actors.One of them teared up, is it David? (since they both start with D, I forget which one is which)I’m sure they are not the only ones in Hollywood who wanted to make these books and that particular scene happen.Heck, the actors wanted to get to that scene.I would have killed (not really, but you know what I mean) to play the role of Catelyn.It’s the kind of stuff that really pushes them as actors and shows just how good they are.Above all, actors, writers and producers want you to feel something.As hard as it is to watch, they achieved their goal admirably.

    Actually their both named David =)

    No I get it. They’re not all sadistic, just a tiny bit =)

    Dont get me wrong, the episode was fantastic. Well directed, edited, scored, written and acted. Probably the best episode of this season and maybe the best of the series. But still, its frustrating that we haven’t gotten to see a single bad guy (really bad guy) die since Viserys in season one. But heres to hoping we will get one of those in the season finale!

    An once again, Im one of the unsullied, so please no spoilers or “Oh then your going to love the season finale” I dont want to know =)

  48. Summer Is Coming
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    No, one is David, one is Dan.

  49. The Lightning Lord
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    No, actually, the other writer is Dan Weiss; they’re both affectionately known as David & Dan. Let’s talk about the last episode, then. Orell not a bad guy? What about the slavelords of Astapor? There have been plenty of vile characters that have had their comeuppance, but just like in real life both good people and bad people die – because that’s life. The best fiction is what mirrors real life down to its minute details. All I will say is keep on watching.

  50. ebevan91
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown: I want Michelle and Richard on the commentary track for this episode!

    I can see it right now…

    Richard: “Damn Jorah just got frienzoned”

    *cuts to Red Wedding*

    Michelle: “FUCK NOT THIS NO FUCK NO.”

  51. Max Maxen
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: Its like I said. The children might get their revenge in some way but it sure feels like the Stark family, as in a family in power, is gone. Maybe for good or at least 300 years away from getting back to where they were. Im not saying the kids wont get back together again. Some of them might and Im hopping they will, they are my favorite family, but they are not in the game anymore.

    Hell, maybe they can join Danys army, she sure is getting allot more followers every day =D

    Do not forget Jon Snow! A King has the right to lift a Bastard up to be a legitimate heir. (some other King I guess, or Queen). Jon Snow is more Stark than anyone really. And the people of the North would definately follow him. Especially after that stunt Trollton has pulled.

  52. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    The Lightning Lord:
    Nikola S,

    No, actually, the other writer is Dan Weiss; they’re both affectionately known as David & Dan.Let’s talk about the last episode, then. Orell not a bad guy? What about the slavelords of Astapor? There have been plenty of vile characters that have had their comeuppance, but just like in real life both good people and bad people die – because that’s life.The best fiction is what mirrors real life down to its minute details. All I will say is keep on watching.

    There you go, I was pretty sure both were David. But now that you said it I do remember that one was Dan. My mistake.

    Orell? Yeah he is a bad guy, but hes a fly on the wall. Not someone we have come to hate/despise, maybe annoyed. So my opinion is still that since Viserys died not one bad guy of importans has died. While allot of good guys have died (like I said, overall good) Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark, Drogo, Renly, Jeor Mormont and a maybe Robert B, although the jury is out on which team he is on. The list goes on and on. A few good characters that weren’t really important but that still got a bit of screen time like Neds right hand man also got killed.

    My opinion is that this doesnt mirror real life. Real life goes more towards 50/50 in the end, it can spike one way or the other at certain points but in the end it evens out. Im hoping it evens out in the end for this show as well. Im actually hoping that the process of evening out starts next week =)

  53. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    Viserys was a douche, but…

    Drogo had hundreds of people killed and raped, and if he had landed on westeros, hw would have raped and killed millions

    Robb sent 2000 men to certain death

    Renly would have caused millions of deaths (in battle with Stannis) just because he thought he would make a better king

    Catelyn helped start a war that had millions of innocents killed

    Neds “honor” led to Jaime becoming the tormented soul he was/is, and his stubbornness lead to the slaughter of his household in Kings Landing

    Something to think about ;)

  54. John
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    If you can’t decide on which team Robert is I would also say the same goes for Drogo and Renly.
    What good things did Renly? He left Ned the night Robert died, he called himself king without a claim (like Stannis) or reason (like Robb).
    And Drogo? He took care of his khalasar (good), but what exactly did he do? Killing, raping, looting and selling people to the slavers (like every khal)

    Was Craster a bad guy? I would say so – and he got killed! ;-)

    So if you take those two of the good side and put them with Robert on “neither good nor bad” you have 4 good people dead, 2 bad and 3 neither good nor bad. Looks better, doesn’t it? :-)

  55. Waldin
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: There you go, I was pretty sure both were David. But now that you said it I do remember that one was Dan. My mistake.

    Orell? Yeah he is a bad guy, but hes a fly on the wall. Not someone we have come to hate/despise, maybe annoyed. So my opinion is still that since Viserys died not one bad guy of importans has died. While allot of good guys have died (like I said, overall good) Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark, Drogo, Renly, Jeor Mormont and a maybe Robert B, although the jury is out on which team he is on. The list goes on and on. A few good characters that weren’t really important but that still got a bit of screen time like Neds right hand man also got killed.

    My opinion is that this doesnt mirror real life. Real life goes more towards 50/50 in the end, it can spike one way or the other at certain points but in the end it evens out. Im hoping it evens out in the end for this show as well. Im actually hoping that the process of evening out starts next week =)

    So you count a rapist and a drunk man who cheats on his wife as “good guys”. You need to stop tagging people as good or bad.
    Also real life doesn’t go as smoothly as 50/50.

  56. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: There you go, I was pretty sure both were David. But now that you said it I do remember that one was Dan. My mistake.

    Orell? Yeah he is a bad guy, but hes a fly on the wall. Not someone we have come to hate/despise, maybe annoyed. So my opinion is still that since Viserys died not one bad guy of importans has died. While allot of good guys have died (like I said, overall good) Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark, Drogo, Renly, Jeor Mormont and a maybe Robert B, although the jury is out on which team he is on. The list goes on and on. A few good characters that weren’t really important but that still got a bit of screen time like Neds right hand man also got killed.

    My opinion is that this doesnt mirror real life. Real life goes more towards 50/50 in the end, it can spike one way or the other at certain points but in the end it evens out. Im hoping it evens out in the end for this show as well. Im actually hoping that the process of evening out starts next week =)

    I could never get a bad buy vibe from Orell, even though that’s what they were pushing. I mean, he was basically as brutal as Tormund and other wildings, he was just more perceptive about who Jon really was.

    I agree that there are definately some “good guys” and “bad guys,” not only in the books but in real life. MLK Jr. is a good guy. Hitler is a bad guy. In the show, are people who are going for the “no good guys or bad guys” argument really saying there is no difference between the villains (Joffrey, Craster, guy torturing Theon) and people like Ned, Robb, Jon, Davos, and a few others. Quite a few other characters are debateable (Robert, Stannis, Jaime), but that doesn’t mean “no bad guys, no good guys.”

    However, I think the 50/50 thing is not necessarily true. A big theme of the series, that I think is true in real life, is that the good guys die because they are good. If Ned had not warned Cersei of what he knew, then he probably would not be dead. Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen would be dead by Robert’s hand, but Ned would have survived. Ned did the right thing by giving Cersei a chance to escape with her life and the lives of her children, but practically speaking, it sealed his fate. Robb executing Karstark was the honorable thing to do. It’s a bit hypocritical to justify his violent war because Joffrey killed his dad, and then for him to condone or be soft when his own men do something even worse. But if he was softer on ethics, more practical about his war, he wouldn’t have needed the Freys and wouldn’t have walked into their trap. Contrast that with Tywin, who is ruthless and willing to do anything, including the killing of innocents, in order to keep his position and secure his family’s power. Tywin and the Lannisters win frequently BECAUSE of their murky moral compass, and people like Ned die BECAUSE they will not go as far as their adversaries are willing to go to win/survive.

  57. Dragolf
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    ebevan91: I can see it right now…

    Richard: “Damn Jorah just got frienzoned”

    *cuts to Red Wedding*

    Michelle: “FUCK NOT THIS NO FUCK NO.”

    OMG I hadn’t thought of the commentary track! That is going to be so hard for them but it has to be those two on it, HAS TO.

    Great videos, the insight from the creators and subsequent re-watches has me changing my initial opinion on the RW when it didn’t live up to my imagination. Their motivation for lingering on Cat at the end makes sense. I knew what was coming, but non-readers didn’t, so it gave them a chance to hope against hope that she just might make it before *slice*.

  58. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    But the point of these events is to show that in times of turmoil, classical good traits such as honor and love can be people’s downfall when pitted against those who are ruthless and trying to scrap their way to the top. So at least at the present, the ratio isn’t 50/50.

    On the flip side, however, there are some positive consequences of having love and honor. Certainly the North will not forget the cruel and unjustified actions of Walder Frey.

  59. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    There are fantasies that end up with the good guys dying ;)

  60. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt:
    Nikola S,

    Viserys was a douche, but…

    Drogo had hundreds of people killed and raped, and if he had landed on westeros, hw would have raped and killed millions

    Robb sent 2000 men to certain death

    Renly would have caused millions of deaths (in battle with Stannis) just because he thought he would make a better king

    Catelyn helped start a war that had millions of innocents killed

    Neds “honor” led to Jaime becoming the tormented soul he was/is, and his stubbornness lead to the slaughter of his household in Kings Landing

    Something to think about ;)

    This is the reason why the series is so good. Makes you question what is really good, what is really bad. Even though Ned maybe made mistakes, and certainly was incapable of understanding why what Jaime did to the King was probably a good thing, I’d still put him safely on the “good guy” camp. He is certainly distinguishable from Joffrey. The ethics of Robb starting a war over personal revenge is very interesting, but he is still distinguishable from Joffrey, I’d argue. Catelyn started a war…but I’d say almost every decision she made was either right or understandable. Capturing Tyrion was bad, but she understandably trusted people she probably shouldn’t have (her sister Lysa and childhood friend Petyr). Drogo though? Hard to objectively put him in the good guy camp, even if he was the love interest of a main character.

  61. iRaven
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    First of all, I think this is a great discussion and the basis on why it is a great, complex story.

    Second of all, I think people can tend to confuse “liking” a character with them being “good”. For example: Robert Baratheon. I LOVED that character – even more so on the show than the books. Probably my favorite character of season 1. But is he “good”? I would tend to say “no”, although on the continuum of good and evil he would probably sway towards the good end, but the guy was a drunk womanizer, and a shitty King.

    Joffrey is probably one of my least favorite characters for that very same reason – he is one dimensionally evil and the only insight he brings to people is “I hope he dies soon”. While he is necessary for the plot and certainly serves a function, I don’t prefer that type of characterization. I don’t dislike him because he’s “evil” and “evil = bad”. I dislike him because “evil is all he is”. I hope this makes sense and isn’t redundant.

  62. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    iRaven,

    I didn’t like Joffrey much in the books but damn, Jack Gleeson won me over with his amazing portrayal. Hating Joffrey is so fun – all thanks to him.

    jkb,

    Awesome track. Episode 10 will be fantastic. *Sniff* and ‘For the Realm’ in the credits. *Sniff*

    Beric, I love you

  63. iRaven
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I agree, the actor is doing an amazing job.

  64. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Max Maxen: Do not forget Jon Snow! A King has the right to lift a Bastard up to be a legitimate heir. (some other King I guess, or Queen). Jon Snow is more Stark than anyone really. And the people of the North would definately follow him. Especially after that stunt Trollton has pulled.

    The only person who could realistically have legitimized Jon Snow was Ned Stark and he wasn’t prepared to twist the knife in Cat’s heart. Joffrey definitely isn’t going to do it and neither is whoever he names Lord Protector of the North. I’m guessing it will be Roose Bolton.

    As Varys pointed out, legitimacy is an illusion, a social contract. There will surely be Stark bannermen who will be shocked and dismayed at what went down at the twins. A strong leader with a legitimate claim to Winterfell might be able to unite them. I doubt young Bran would be able to fill Robb’s shoes, never mind Ned’s. His disability makes it even less likely. However, you also need to consider the military reality: if need be, the Freys and the Boltons could ask for reinforcements from the Lannisters if anyone were to attempt a counter-coup. There’s a reason usurpers and tyrants manage to stay in power for decades, often for generations.

    As the central family of this saga, the Starks will get back in the Game eventually – it just won’t be as a traditional nuclear family. Jon has managed to give the wildlings the slip and may well take command of what’s left of the Night’s Watch. Sansa has strong survival instincts and has been called the key to the North. Arya may yet be able to take Jaqen H’ghar up on his offer someday and work off her rapidly expanding list of names. Bran is beginning to fathom his warg powers, which include remote control of other people. And finally, Rickon could come out of the woodwork decades from now, much as Dany is doing right now. It’s a long game now for the remaining Starks, but not as long as it was for the Targaryens.

  65. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: Good guys dont always live, in this world bad guys always live, exceptions sure. But the death ratio between good guys and bad guys is like 10:1.

    Actually the ratio is 1:1 because, as everybody should now at this point, Valar Morghulis :)

  66. Huck
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    I think that David might be slowly, ever so slowly changing into Grey Wolf…

  67. Easteros bunny
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    I don’t think they’re sadistic, it is quite the emotional scene, a scene on that level is unheard of on television. It takes a lot of balls to kill off three of your main characters.

    Look at the impact that the scene has had on people, I saw people cry in my lecture yesterday morning when they talked about it. It’s awesome that a television show can effect people that much, especially when it’s a fantasy show.

    By all means be mad and upset, it wasn’t easy for me as a book reader to watch that scene, but don’t give up on the show.

    It’s about time the fantasy genre gets turned on its head. It has always been good winning against evil, I don’t think anyone will win in this story.

  68. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt:
    Nikola S,

    Viserys was a douche, but…

    Drogo had hundreds of people killed and raped, and if he had landed on westeros, hw would have raped and killed millions

    Robb sent 2000 men to certain death

    Renly would have caused millions of deaths (in battle with Stannis) just because he thought he would make a better king

    Catelyn helped start a war that had millions of innocents killed

    Neds “honor” led to Jaime becoming the tormented soul he was/is, and his stubbornness lead to the slaughter of his household in Kings Landing

    Something to think about ;)

    Drogo, sure he is a barbarian so yeah, he is probably good or bad depending on what side your on.

    Robb, sorry those arguments are invalid. There are no wars without innocents dying, no soldiers sacrificing their lives and so on. If you dont want those things to happen, dont start wars and/or dont get involved. There is no other way of avoiding innocent lives being destroyed/killed.

    Renly, same as Robb, only in this case your just throwing your own hypothetics in what would have happend and why he did what he did. And can you argue with his thought that he would make a better king then Stannis? Then Joffrey? The only one who could have competed in that regard is Robb. And it was already set that they would join forces. So you would have TWO great kings.

    Catelyn, sure she made a stupid decision in kidnapping Tyrion but that doesnt make her a bad guy, its not even a debate.

    Ned was honorable to a fault. The Jaime thing doesnt make him a bad guy either.

    We might not agree but dont make up stuff that isnt there. Like I said, every single character has their faults and have done some things that are not so good. Yet some are just out right bad guys. Like Joffrey, Cersei, Frey, Balon Greyjoy, The Mountain and so on.

  69. Jeffrey
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    I think a lot people in this world tries to see good and evil just like what people were hoping for in GoT. And that is a really big problem with the real world today. We all try to see if that person is positively EVIL or positively GOOD. When you choose which person is good, you literally mute that “evil” person.

    Example: Ned Stark when he saw Jamie Lannister and the Mad King dead. He already chose Jamie as evil and dishonorable.

  70. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    If you were trapped in a room with Drogo, he would have almost certainly killed you. How can that be considered “good”?

    You talk about deaths be inevitable in war. So what was wrong with the Red Wedding? Soldiers died. Everyone killed was part of the war, even Talisa. Customs aside, it was, in effect, a battle, and the Lannisters/Boltons/ Freys won.

    Also, yes, Stannis would have made a better king. Renly, as the Queen of Thorns states, was a fool.

    And Robb being a great king? He has been a king for the last two seasons, and he ended up losing half his army, and lead to the death of all his loyal supporters. He was a terrible king… he played the game of thrones, and lost.

  71. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Waldin: So you count a rapist and a drunk man who cheats on his wife as “good guys”. You need to stop tagging people as good or bad.
    Also real life doesn’t go as smoothly as 50/50.

    The drunk man I said was very grey, probably more bad then good. At least the part of his life that we saw on the show. Drogo is probably even grayer, or just outright bad. Those two Ill admit are probably not on either list.

    They were bad examples. But the number of good guys dying on the show still outnumber the number of bad guys dying by a mile.

  72. Jeffrey
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S: Drogo, sure he is a barbarian so yeah, he is probably good or bad depending on what side your on.

    Catelyn, sure she made a stupid decision in kidnapping Tyrion but that doesnt make her a bad guy, its not even a debate.

    Ned was honorable to a fault. The Jaime thing doesnt make him a bad guy either.

    We might not agree but dont make up stuff that isnt there. Like I said, every single character has their faults and have done some things that are not so good. Yet some are just out right bad guys. Like Joffrey, Cersei, Frey, Balon Greyjoy, The Mountain and so on.

    What do you mean if Drogo was bad or good depending on your side? The dude let his people rape villagers.

    Do you think Mirri Maz Duur was bad? She was going for vengence against Drogo and the Khaleesi!

    Catelyn was horrible to Jon Snow. Gave two shits about him

    Cersei totally bad? If Cersei is totally bad then Tywin as well. Cersei is protecting her family as much as Tywin. Yet they aren’t as clever as Tywin’s plans but still she is protecting her family. What is the difference between Cat and Cersei other than HOW THEY protect their family?

    Walder Frey was spit on by Robb Stark. You might say it was such a small insult but for Frey it was not.

  73. Jeffrey
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt:
    Nikola S,

    If you were trapped in a room with Drogo, he would have almost certainly killed you. How can that be considered “good”?

    You talk about deaths be inevitable in war. So what was wrong with the Red Wedding? Soldiers died. Everyone killed was part of the war, even Talisa. Customs aside, it was, in effect, a battle, and the Lannisters/Boltons/ Freys won.

    Also, yes, Stannis would have made a better king. Renly, as the Queen of Thorns states, was a fool.

    And Robb being a great king? He has been a king for the last two seasons, and he ended up losing half his army, and lead to the death of all his loyal supporters. He was a terrible king… he played the game of thrones, and lost.

    Agreed. Not only that… he chose love over his kingdom. He ignored his people for an “outsider”. In the book as well.

    Highborns do NOT HAVE the freedom to love in GoT or during the dark ages in real life. Marriages were through gaining land and allies. What Robb did was a horrible choice. If he wanted to find love, like Sansa, then they should’ve been born poor.

  74. Lyanna_Targaryen
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    I would personally like to hear from Filch, aka David Bradley, aka that traitorous bastard Walder Frey. Then again, maybe I don’t want to see what he’s like in real life. It might ruin the villain veil, so to speak. Just like it did with Charles Dance.

  75. Nikola S
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt:
    Nikola S,

    If you were trapped in a room with Drogo, he would have almost certainly killed you. How can that be considered “good”?

    You talk about deaths be inevitable in war. So what was wrong with the Red Wedding? Soldiers died. Everyone killed was part of the war, even Talisa. Customs aside, it was, in effect, a battle, and the Lannisters/Boltons/ Freys won.

    Also, yes, Stannis would have made a better king. Renly, as the Queen of Thorns states, was a fool.

    And Robb being a great king? He has been a king for the last two seasons, and he ended up losing half his army, and lead to the death of all his loyal supporters. He was a terrible king… he played the game of thrones, and lost.

    Drogo was a bad example. Ill give you that.

    Stannis would have made a terrible king since he cant bend a single inch one way or the other. Stavos saved his and his armys life and what does he do? He chops his fingers of!

    Yes Robb would have made a great king. He cared for his soldiers, he even cared for injured soldiers of the enemy for crying out loud. Yes, he made the decision of sending 2000 soldiers to their deaths in order to win a larger goal. He didnt like it but he felt it had to be done. Once again, you cant win wars without sacrifices and innocents being killed. If you cant accept that, then dont engage in war. Thats it. But this is Game of Thrones, so war is part of it.

    Renly was a fool? Now your really projecting your own prejudice against Renly and not basing your argument on facts. Renly clearly cared for everyone in his army, no matter position, he knew them by name and asked how their families were doing and so on. Stannis doesnt give a shit about his soldiers well being or how there families are doing.

    What was wrong with the Red Wedding? Are you seriously comparing it to regular war battle and strategies? The Red Wedding was a wedding, you agreed to an allegiance, you promised not to hurt your guests (the bread) and then you get everybody drunk, get the king, his wife and mother trapped and slaughter them, dont give a crap about your wife potentially dying, start killing all the soldiers outside. The difference? One is battle and strategy of armies. The other is double crossing and a cowards way of winning.

    But I think you already know this. What your trying to get out of this I dont know. But Im done debating with you.

  76. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    Dude, if you dont enjoy debating such things, then dont watch the show. Chill out, im not personally attacking you.

    1. ROBB WAS A KING. He is now dead, same as Renly. Its called the war of five kings for a reason. Robb was a kind person, but a terrible king. He alienated his allies, cared more about honor than common sense, and died because of this.

    2. Yes Stanis would have been a better king. Renly was FALSE. He put on a show, but in reality he was weak, and a fool. How do you know he cared about those people? Because he pretended to? If he really cared so much, why was he willing to have them killed just to defeat his brother? Stannis is just. He punished Davos because he was a smuggler, not because he saved him. He also, if you paid attention, made him a knight, and listens to him. Even Davos says he is the rightful king for gods sake!

    3. Yes Walder Frey is a douche. But its war. There is no such thing as a “good” win. You think battles are ever pretty? Thousands die horribly, screaming for their mothers, leaving children orphans.

  77. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Also, I dont use “facts”? Its a show! NONE OF THIS IS REAL!

  78. iRaven
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Nikola S,

    I think you bring up some really good points, I hope you don’t jump off the ship just yet because people are disagreeing with you.

    A question – did the Red Wedding change your perception of Tywin in any way?

  79. Eleanor
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    kelly:
    bird:

    Very good point. I didn’t even think about that. I firmly believe that Lady Stoneheart opening her eyes will be the last frame of next week’s finale. It just fits too perfectly with the title of episode, the foreshadowing with Beric, and the pattern of ending the seasons with the supernatural. I hope she looks super creepy. I didn’t much care for her in the books so far but for some reason I think the character will work better for television.

    I really don’t want that to happen before S4 but you’re right in that it would fit very well in that pattern.
    That character is for me the worst part of the books (beating out Penny) so maybe it’s just that I want to put it off…

  80. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Just to clarify: You make some good points. I am just debating, nothing personal!

  81. Waldin
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    But in the end, what is bad and what is good?
    Who or what determines such things?
    The religions, a group of men, the individual?

  82. Zaprowsdower
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Why do so many unsullied think that Walder’s daughters are inbred? Just because they are ugly? I keep seeing that everywhere.

  83. LadyStone
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    (First post here, though I’ve been a fan of the site for a while…)

    Jumping in here because this I’m really enjoying this discussion. I think that while most characters are somewhere in the middle, there are those who are almost completely “good” (the Starks – including Jon – being the main ones) or “evil” (Joffery; Ramsay Bolton). Have more of the “good” than “evil” characters been killed? At this point in the show, I’d probably say yes; however, I think that’s simply because there are more “good” characters (or at least characters that we care about) than there are ones we want to see punished. For example, when Dany brought down Astapor, presumably many “evil” slavers were killed, but we didn’t know any of them.

    I think the Game of Owns guys had the discussion recently of whether Ned would have aligned with Renly, since he believed Stannis would be next in line rightfully. A person’s opinion on many of these characters will depend heavily on whether you are a book reader. When I watched season two I was completely rooting for Renly, and hated Stannis for causing him to die. But reading the books you get a lot more insight into that character, which I think has started to come through this season on the show.

    One of the most interesting things about the series is that it’s hard to really pick a side, since there are characters that we root for in each faction. Like Blackwater, where we had ‘good guy’ Tyrion on one side and ‘good guy’ Davos on the other and we wanted them both to make it.

    Also, on the topic of the videos, David Benioff looking/sounding like he was tearing up made me tear up as well :(

  84. WompWomp
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    Lyanna_Targaryen:
    I would personally like to hear from Filch, aka David Bradley, aka that traitorous bastard Walder Frey.Then again, maybe I don’t want to see what he’s like in real life. It might ruin the villain veil, so to speak. Just like it did with Charles Dance.

    Really? Interviews? THIS is what ruined Charles Dance for me:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFVzKZenn6Q

    …Not. It only made him more awesome. >:]

  85. Iggy1eco
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Catelyn’s scream was the most touching and shocking moment in the TV series IMO. That went right down the gut. Amazing moment, yet sadistic, but D&D showed professionalism in setting RW as primary goal and actually making it count and have the impact they wanted.

    While they’re obvious fans of the books, and everything ASOIAF & GRRM this was also a great prefessional stunt to uplift their repertoire +fulfilling a personal lifetime wish. Seriously, GRRM passion plus their passion for their work it’s bringing wonders to TV.

    Although, if there was a Dothraki on that wedding, he would be the only one actually having a blast (and on normal dothraki standards). =p

  86. WompWomp
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Iggy1eco,

    There’s that word again. “Sadistic.” What’s wrong with anticipating the onscreen realization of an infamously affecting scene?

    The only sadism I can directly attribute to either of them is how much they enjoy torturing Theon (as Benioff answered, perhaps facetiously, perhaps not) to a streetside web reporter. The famous faked script prank they pulled at Alfie’s expense suggests some truth in Benioff’s response, but in more of a playful fashion.

  87. Ser Hodor Halfmast
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Jambo,

    Did not see that coming at all, freaking hilarious!!!

  88. WildSeed
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    When I initially learned of HBO giving the greenlight for the Game of Thrones project,
    my concern immediately went to any treatment or consideration for the wedding at
    the Twins. I considered this so diabolical and mind altering for television, the
    tone and expanse of it would surely be diluted in concept. I know it’s HBO, but
    really, even reading caused disturbing thoughts. In fact, I’ve never taken a break
    from a book that I’d been engrossed in. Sometimes thought provoking details with
    new insights help clarify or add to the existing drama ( or light mood ). Such
    pivotal entries shape the scope of the story or persons named. Yet , Ned’s beheading
    and Catelyn & Robb’s death had me reeling as if I’d just suffered a personal loss and
    burned my hand at the same time. I was bewildered. Even more bizarre was
    encountering others in my book club that either sobbed , were incredibly insensed
    or needed extra talking sessions about the experience. Mine own reaction was to take
    a day’s break from reading, albeit slow paced. It wasn’t until recent that I learned
    a global perspective on the subject. In fact, this verified an onscreen focus would
    fail because of too much or too little focus. Very tricky to pull off. Luckily my ignorance
    towards understanding film production and thoughtful oversight by a committed
    fan based producer, would prove me wrong. Since the production wasn’t a series of
    feature films { big box theatre productions } increased my skepticism for the series
    overall, and botching the Frey wedding for certain.

    Michelle Fairly certainly lent her own heart felt passion to the scene, and the role
    throughout. Too bad the script from season two missed critical points that would
    have made for better character impact. Catelyn was so much more than a sad
    widow and grieving mother. Anyways, the gamble paid off in the end, with the
    Frey wedding at the Twins. A job well done and talked about everywhere.
    I even read a twitter quote that mentioned if GRRM ever set foot in Auburn New
    York, he’d get stabbed in the heart ” . Wow , what a reaction , that’s
    good for business, right ? *>*

  89. WildSeed
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp: Really? Interviews? THIS is what ruined Charles Dance for me:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFVzKZenn6Q

    …Not. It only made him more awesome. >:]

    ? Reproductive sequencer ? LMAO, not the way many now would want to see
    everyone’s favorite alpha male these days. After roles like Tywin the CEO
    and head Vampire inUnderworld the Awakening, expectations have increased
    for his mean side.

  90. Matt
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    i find it interesting that D&D spent a lot more time talking about Richard Madden leaving the show than Michelle… perhaps because she hasn’t quite left yet ;-)

  91. WildSeed
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    Omar Brown,

    I think they haven’t made video interviews for a couple of reasons….1) they are busy and moving on to other parts or taking a break before beginning new projects and/or 2) the actors were really exhausted emotionally after doing this scene.There was something in an interview about D&D calling Michelle and she didn’t respond for weeks.She said it was because she was still emotionally devastated to even speak to anyone involved with GOT.Richard Madden said he was so affected that he left the set and immediately got on a plane to London.He didn’t stay behind to say goodbye at the final get together it was so bad.

    I think viewers don’t understand (and no offense meant by this statement) that creating such scene is very difficult for most actors because they do really experience those emotions.They are truly emoting and they have to do it repeatedly until the director is satisfied.Try it yourself in front of the mirror.Try doing the little bit that Catelyn does at the end about 10 to 15 times and try to do it with the same intensity. You’ll be exhausted, I guarantee.Well, they spent an entire week shooting that one scene. I shudder to think of how Michelle had to get herself to “that place” to shoot that scene over and over and over.

    The scene was so effective that it convinced me of Catelyn’s pain. AND , I was
    exhausted afterwards. I didn’t sob uncontrollably or swore at the screen like
    some did, but I felt exhausted all the same, when it was over.

    Since the actors drew from their own imagination or true conflicts of pain, I
    would only expect a need to take a break from the episode and move onto
    different projects. Find emotional balance through work and uplifting projects
    that challenge one’s sense of being

  92. Mev
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Jambo,

    LOL

  93. kelly
    Posted June 4, 2013 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Eleanor,

    I think if they keep the character of Lady Stoneheart, another reason they will reveal her this season is the logistics of filming if they move it to next year. It would be so very hard to keep any sightings of her on set or in town during off hours from leaking.

    The discussion on this post is really interesting. It is pretty cynical but I swear the older I get the more I believe that there are no people who are all good or all bad. We all have both in us. One could argue that Ned wasn’t a purely good guy because he slept with another woman and forced his wife to live with the consequences of his action no matter how much it hurt her. Leaving other theories aside since unsullied are participating here. And many judge Viserys as evil because of how he treated Dany when she was older but he protected her when she was younger and educated her about her birthright. Hitler is often regarded as purely evil for obvious reasons. But would anyone call Drogo purely evil when he raped, murdered and enslaved other races for the sin of being passive (the Lamb Men).

    The thing I love about the books is the complexity of the characters. For me, categorizing them as good guys or bad guys is much too simplistic. Though I am more sympathetic to non-book readers tendency to do that at times because the show is definitely taking away the shades of gray in certain characters (especially Tyrion) to conform to the tropes that some viewers are more comfortable with. Which is a shame but expected with pretty much any book to screen adaptation.

    Damn. Now I sound like a book purist which I definitely am not!

  94. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    LadyStone,

    kelly,

    I would not say anyone in the real world or in Westeros is purely good or purely bad. Ned has an almost religious adherence to arbitrary societal rules, like line of succession, to the point where he is willing to start a war to put the next man in line on the throne. And Joffrey…hmm, never mind. Anywho, despite my not believing in anyone being “purely” good or bad, I still cheer for certain characters, or like certain ones, based on their morality. I can’t help it. And, honestly, I think the books and series ask that of us. But it also is meant to challenge us whenever we categorize someone that way. I don’t think the lesson is “don’t think of someone as bad/good, or their actions as bad/good, it all gets so confusing.” I think our ways of measuring morality are supposed to be honed by the text, not discarded because of it.

    Stannis v Renly: Ned would choose Stannis, for sure. They made that clear in his conversation with Renly in episode 7 (I think) of Season 1. The only reason why he didn’t support Joffrey’s claim was because he turned out not to be Robert’s son. Line of succession is a big deal for him, he wouldn’t be willing to skip Stannis for Renly. I personally like Renly more. Whether you take the more idealistic, but weaker, version of him on the show, or the pragmatic political climber he is in the books, he is still the flawed ruler that would be preferable to Stannis, who brutally and ruthlessly enforces his sense of justice. A sense of justice that is too easily twisted by people like Melisandre.

    Robb: Someone mentioned the argument against Robb’s violent war was “invalid,” because war naturally involves the deaths of innocents. I think the argument can still stand though. Yeah, war kills innocents, but that’s why you better have a damn good reason for going to war in order to justify those deaths. What were Robb’s reasons? Secession? Not a big fan. Avenging Ned? Feels good, but avenging one innocent’s death at the cost of thousands of others doesn’t really convince me. Honestly, he should have bent the knee pretty early on. That was Book-Catelyn’s stance, and while Robb’s anger at Joffrey was very understandable, it shouldn’t have taken precedence over the loss of thousands of lives. Still worlds above most other characters though.

  95. Bea T.
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    I hope they do an Anatomy of an Episode for this one like they did for the season 1 dvd for The Golden Crown episode :)

  96. Zack
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    Bea T.,

    You raise a great point, which is that the season 3 DVD sets are going to have such brilliant extras focused around this episode. I hate that we won’t get to experience that stuff for a year :(

    I must admit I would get a kick out of a Robb/Cat/Walder/Roose team up for commentary on that episode. Hell, add Talisa too.

  97. Jentario
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    kelly:
    Interesting news.Not sure how this bodes forLady Stoneheart showing up this season or next.

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/04/michelle-fairley-suits/

    She only really needs one scene. And maybe a dream sequence or something… Also, the shows don’t necessarily conflict with eachother’s film schedules.

  98. Jentario
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    Bea T.,

    You raise a great point, which is that the season 3 DVD sets are going to have such brilliant extras focused around this episode. I hate that we won’t get to experience that stuff for a year :(

    I must admit I would get a kick out of a Robb/Cat/Walder/Roose team up for commentary on that episode. Hell, add Talisa too.

    I am agonizingly waiting for the Stark kids next intro song.

  99. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Waldin: But in the end, what is bad and what is good?
    Who or what determines such things?
    The religions, a group of men, the individual?

    Hominids have probably been arguing about this ever since they evolved complex language, given that social organization predated that event.

    One modern perspective on this dilemma is called moral particularism. IMHO, it’s more useful for understanding the decisions people have made in the past in context, rather than as a normative guide for making them in the present or future. In that sense, it provides a useful counterpoint to traditional absolutist notions of morality and the associated social sanctions: shaming, ostracism etc. Perhaps then, particularism and rigid norms represent the extremes, with most of us falling somewhere in-between on the spectrum.

  100. Songsmith
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    Nikola S:
    Weiss and Benioff have a little bit of a sadistic side it seems. This was the one scene they wanted to get to, the one scene that made them want to do the show and one of the scenes that they love the most and I’m thinking, what?

    I normally lurk, but wanted to put my two cents in. I think what D&D mean is that they were just as strongly affected when they read the RW as you were when you watched it. Because the event hit them so hard, they wanted very much to do it justice on screen in an attempt to capture/share those feelings with viewers. I see that as artistic rather than sadistic.

  101. Matt S
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    I honestly don’t care if people were turned off by how dark or graphic or depressing the Red Wedding was. I like television that can challenge me both intellectually and emotionally. And to all the people who proclaim they’ll never watch the show again, and the book-readers who try and convince them to ‘stick with it’, why bother? I say good riddance to them if they don’t have the tolerance for such gripping storytelling.

  102. Nikola S
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    iRaven:
    Nikola S,

    I think you bring up some really good points, I hope you don’t jump off the ship just yet because people are disagreeing with you.

    A question – did the Red Wedding change your perception of Tywin in any way?

    Jump ship as in leave the comment section? No, I won’t do that. But I have no interest in going into every single character and dissecting whether they are good or bad since I apparently have such a different view on this than a few others here. For me there are good guys and bad guys and characters that fall in-between, both good and bad. Dany is straight up good, so is Jon Snow (And by straight up good I don’t mean can’t do no wrong). Joffrey is straight up bad and so is Walter Frey. Grey people are people like Jaime, who were good and then did really bad things and now once again start to do good. Cersei is like I said earlier straight up bad. I dont care that your husband cheated on you, that doesnt give you the right to treat Sansa like shit and basically do to her what was done to you. Treat Tyrion like shit all his life and then be all happy when Tywin forces Tyrion to marry Sansa.

    It was just brilliant to see the look on Cerseis face when Tywin forced her to marry the knight of flowers! The payback for her glee came quickly, for once =)

    Now, to answer your actual question =)
    How I feel about Tywin after the Red Wedding? Oddly enough I dont feel that different about him now. Always respected his ability to outthink/smart his opponents. I dont like him but I respect him and oddly enough I dont hate him. Although it would be satisfying to see him get outsmarted, which we did get a little bit of when Robb was kicking his ass in every battle they had. Could also be the fact that I have huge respect for the actor and the presence he brings to that role.
    And if you meant jumping ship as in not watching the show? Then there is no chance/risk of that. Love the show, my favorite show on TV. Like I said earlier, there are two characters whose death might shake my loyalty to the show, but I won’t name them for risk of someone foreshadowing something.

  103. kelly
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    Your entire first paragraph is perfection and expressed what I was trying to say with much more eloquence and precision. Your hodoring was awesomely hodor, Hodor.

    It makes me laugh how every discussion about the moral relativism and complexity of ASOIAF characters run into a brick wall with freaking Joffery. That kid is just utterly vile (even more so on the show) and completely rotten to the core.

  104. Skipjack
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Like all of you I have so many feelings about the “Who are the good guys?” question, but I think I’ll skip them and say what I think. I think we’re talking about who are going to be MY good guys. When we talk about good guys, we aren’t really talking about whether the characters are shining knights, just people we can get behind. And by get behind we have to see them going somewhere in order to get on their bandwagon. This story is really awful for bandwagonneers.

    As for the bad guy to good guys ratio, well I think we have to remember that while survival might be the scoreboard for the game of thrones, the bad guys outnumber the good guys by a huge margin. And by bad guys I don’t mean people that have no redeeming qualities, I mean people we aren’t getting behind. Tywin is a terrific character but no we are not going to root for him. It’s not just the story that is being told, but also how we are telling ourselves the story. GRRM frequently jams our expectations about how stories are told, and I think a lot of people flounder at this point not because there’s no one to root for, but there’s no how, no easy way to see who is going to carry the flag for the audience.

    I am a book reader, but I don’t think I’m spoiling by offering hope that there are ways to root for other characters but in a different context. Can’t be more clear than that unfortunately but I hope it’s something.

  105. Iggy1eco
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I said the scene, the moment was amazing in a sadistic way. The same can be said about Tarantino scenes like the bar scene in Inglorious Basterds. Amazing, yet brutal.
    I didn’t say the anticipation for the scene was sadistic. Someone in their position and in their right minds obviously would anxiously anticipate a key turning point not only to the story but to the future of the show they’re running. Also, was a personal dream so to speak. I can’t blame them.

    Didn’t catch that interview, though. This might be a turning point for Theon too or they wouldn’t do that. Being an important character and all.

    Anyway, it’s Game of Thrones: Erotism and Sadism are lovers…like Fire and Blood ;p

  106. outdoorcats
    Posted June 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Wow, David Benioff gets quite emotional in the second video…also he can’t make eye contact with the camera.


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