Inside the Episode: “Mhysa”
By Ours is the Fury on in Media.

Executive producers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss offer insight into the Game of Thrones season finale, “Mhysa,” with their take on Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton. They discuss keeping the audience in the dark with Theon Greyjoy and their views on Daenerys and the controversial final scene with the freed people of Yunkai.


190 Comments

  1. HODOR
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    *echo

  2. Veltigar
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    HODOR:
    *echo

    XD

  3. maia
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Winning !!!!! (Dany while in a middle of the body surfing bit.

  4. Hounded
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Dany opened up the pit.

    Tywin and Roose are 2 of the most interesting characters. Very clever, very dark men.

  5. Tori Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Controversial final scene? It was brilliant, and curious that David mentions she is one of prophecy….. That’s never been confirmed before.

  6. The Hand of Jaime
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Charles Dance is just perfect as Tywin. He’s exactly the cold, ruthless, calculating character I envisioned in the novels. Also, I like that D&D explain the seemingly excessive stretch of Theon acquiring his new name; that would be tough to portray if Reek just showed up in S4/S5 and you have to hear a monologue about him being broken down by the Bastard of Bolton.

    Still a little disappointed that they didn’t include a true cliffhanger but it’s great to see the progression of Daeny’s journey: in S1 she’s in the desert with 3 dragons & 20 people and now she holds a city with over 200,000 people, an army, and 3 bigger dragons!

  7. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    You may like the scene, that’s fine, but the final scene causing controversy is a fact.

  8. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    So, when can we expect to hear the first casting news for S4? If they are less than a month from filming then I expect we should start to hear some rumors start to trickle in. Or will they wait until Comic Con like last year? It’s been 2 days and I am already eager for some S4 news! Bring on the Red Viper!

  9. John G.
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Will there be a post showing HBO’s official Emmy submissions?

  10. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    So, when can we expect to hear the first casting news for S4? If they are less than a month from filming then I expect we should start to hear some rumors start to trickle in.Or will they wait until Comic Con like last year? It’s been 2 days and I am already eager for some S4 news! Bring on the Red Viper!

    Amen! Are we getting a Kingsmoot this year, or next? Ep 10 suggests not, but one never knows…

  11. Darquemode
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    I think he may have meant the Miri Maaz Dur’s prophecy and Quaithe too I guess.
    Not necessarily AA or TPWWP.

  12. Tori Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Why? Because it is celebrating the symbol of ‘The Mother’? One of the greatest symbols of all mythology? Mother is everything, the earth is the mother of us all. The finale scene was a ray of light in what would have been a completely bleak story. Reminding the viewer that there is still some clear hope (for now at least). It was a wise move.

    If it is causing controversy (which I’m sure is exaggerated), then I expect it won’t last. People like to complain about irrelevancies. Most I’ve heard, love it. And rightly so.

  13. Tori Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    That’s an assumption, I think it’s safe to say we don’t know yet what he meant.

  14. Mike
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Why? Because it is celebrating the symbol of ‘The Mother’? One of the greatest symbols of all mythology? Mother is everything, the earth is the mother of us all. The finale scene was a ray of light in what would have been a completely bleak story. Reminding the viewer that there is still some clear hope (for now at least). It was a wise move.

    If it is causing controversy (which I’m sure is exaggerated), then I expect it won’t last. People like to complain about irrelevancies. Most I’ve heard, love it. And rightly so.

    No. Because people think it was a terrible, anticlimactic way to end the season. If you think most love it, you have not been paying attention to the comments here.

    I agree with them that it was underwhelming, but I also agree with you that they blow it out of proportion. That does not mean it is not controversial. It quite plainly is.

  15. Mike
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    Tori Targaryen,

    I think he may have meant the Miri Maaz Dur’s prophecy and Quaithe too I guess.
    Not necessarily AA or TPWWP.

    I don’t think there’s any reason to believe he was referencing any of the four. He’s saying she’d a being of prophecy to THEM, the freed slaves of Yunkai. Nothing in the show or books would tell us what that prophecy would be, specifically. From the context, though, you can see that he means the freed slaves revere her as a religious figure in part because they had some sort of prophecy or traditional belief that someone would one day come and liberate them.

  16. Darquemode
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Looking forward to casting news too… Hell, even casting rumors! XD

    Really interested in trying to glean the direction of the season from casting news.
    Will the Kingsmoot take place and if so which Ironborn make the cut?
    Who will travel to KL with the Red Viper?
    How will they extend Bran’s limited ASOS arc into a full season?
    How will they deal with Brienne next season?

    So many more questions too of course, but those are the ones that come to my mind most often.

  17. Darquemode
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    Indeed it is, that s why I said “may have meant” and “not necessarily” ….

    Mike,
    Ah ok.. nice catch. Could very well be that.

  18. Turncloak
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Really can’t see the kingsmoot happening next season with the way Yara’s scene ended in the finale. People are expecting a Greyjoy/Bolton confrentation

  19. Ser Lyonel the Laughing Storm
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    I personally did enjoy the final scene but I cant help but agree with those that were a little underwhelmed, I was the same as Winter expecting there to be an after credits scene. I’ve come to terms with the moments I wanted not making the episode though now and it is my favorite finale to date.

  20. Ser Lyonel the Laughing Storm
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Honestly Arya seeing Robb left a way worse taste in my mouth the first time I watched it, if only the Hound was nice enough to shield her like Yoren was.

  21. mariamb
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Looking forward to casting news too… Hell, even casting rumors! XD

    Really interested in trying to glean the direction of the season from casting news.
    Will the Kingsmoot take place and if so which Ironborn make the cut?
    Who will travel to KL with the Red Viper?
    How will they extend Bran’s limited ASOS arc into a full season?
    How will they deal with Brienne next season?

    So many more questions too of course, but those are the ones that come to my mind most often.

    To add…
    Coldhands: I can’t imagine that he will be cut. Bran & Company meet him beyond the Wall
    Gregor: How will he get worked back into the events in KL in advance of his duel with the Red Viper?
    Red Viper: How awesome will he be?
    Shae: What will eventually drive her into Tywin’s bed? I’ve come to really enjoy this character in the show and am interested in her motivations going forward.
    The Night’s Watch and the defense at the Wall: We will get cool characters like Donal Noye?

  22. RhymeswithWeak
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    If they cast anyone super famous in any role from now on I think all unsullied will know that they are going to be killed off shortly….

  23. Jenny of Oldstones
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    mariamb:
    Shae: What will eventually drive her into Tywin’s bed? I’ve come to really enjoy this character in the show and am interested in her motivations going forward.

    I think she’ll get jealous of Sansa and angry with Tyrion, probably further inflamed by some fight before the PW and that’s why she betrays him. Her ending in bed with Tywin though, couldn’t say, but we don’t really get an explanation in aSoS either, other than jewels and money. That isn’t really like show-Shae though. Perhaps revenge?

  24. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Mike: No. Because people think it was a terrible, anticlimactic way to end the season. If you think most love it, you have not been paying attention to the comments here.

    I agree with them that it was underwhelming, but I also agree with you that they blow it out of proportion. That does not mean it is not controversial. It quite plainly is.

    I thought the controversy was more that she seemed to come across as the white liberator of ethnic slaves, not that the final scene was just “meh,” which really isn’t “controversial.” (FWIW, I did like it…again, a more contemplative way to end the season. And furthermore, all of the tea-leaf reading us folks did on WIC.net based on hearing a “bong” sound at the end of that bit of the soundtrack was really a bit much. From now on I’m avoiding that damned thread at the end of each season.

  25. Tori Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    The people here don’t represent the majority, thankfully. It’s a shame people are disappointed, but personally I think its a little ridiculous after we were just given the best GOT season, with The Rains of Castamere being the best episode of the series. Nothing could top that.

  26. TheOtherOther
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    My problem is it completely felt out of place and not like people being liberated. It was more badly written and executed TV than anything.

    I didn’t get the motivations of the characters, the unsullied, and the slaves. There was this poorly done tension and nervousness of whether these people would accept freedom.

    Where was the liberation moment?

    So Dany, after her army liberates and takes Yunaki, leaves and forms up outside the city in formation for this organized Pep Rally?

    Generally if you watch liberation scenes from movies, there are cheering throngs of people, like a parade, spontenous outburts of emotion, symbols of oppression cast down. How much more powerful would have been for the “Mhysa” chants from such a throng?

    How about having this in the city, which is liberated, not outside the city in an organized rally telling the slaves they are free, which makes it seem the opposite of liberation.

    It is an organized rally, which contradicts with the image of freedom. TV is funny that way, it works with visual messages and queues.

    Emilia Clarke doesn’t need a speech, simply wave to the people, let her wonderful facial expressions sell the moment. Less is better sometimes.

    What choice did the slaves have? Were they going to say “no” and keep the collars on? There was an army with spears and dragons facing them.

    That image conveyed the exact opposite message of freedom.

    The Unsullied form this wall in front of Daenerys and co. with spears at the ready.

    Who were they expecting to fight? They already defeated the Yunkai slavers and liberated the city, so I am to believe this emaciated people from a National Geographic Special are some kind of threat?

    They already had defeated the Yunkai Slavers, so what exactly were they afraid of?

    That stuff angered me, its the same kind of bad crap you see in poor movies, and this show doesn’t do that often. Unexplained motivations and actions that don’t make sense to the plot.

    Dany walked right into them a moment later, so clearly she wasn’t worried, so why the hell is this army of badass soldiers acting all tense and nervous.

    No we had to have the pep rally, a poltical speech, and a bad crowd surfing moment with a coordinated dragon fly, like the blue angels or something.

    That episode was great, the TV show is awesome, but that ending was simply terrible from an execution, visuals, and motivation standpoint.

  27. Drogo
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    I liked the ending very much personally. Just my two cents.

  28. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    I agree that the Dany scene was a little poorly handled… BUT I must say that the final shot from the bird’s eye view was pretty epic even if it wasn’t quite deserved.

    I feel like the Yunkai story suffered from the enormous weight of the impending Red Wedding and other Westerosi plot lines. They had Dany’s big moment in Astapor and nothing they did in Yunkai was going to live up to that, so it almost feels like Yunkai’s siege and eventual “liberation” played second fiddle in the back half of the season. A bit of a disappointment, but nothing so severe as to be described episode or season wrecking..

  29. Cat of the Canals
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    OitF, I would LOVE to have an interview like Wic did with Bryan Cogman but with Dan and David. Would like to clarify the number of seasons they want to do. Any chance it will happen in the near future?

  30. kalacakra
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Can someone help me out here.
    Why did they think the viewers wouldn’t know who was torturing Theon when Roose Bolton told Robb he would send his son to Winterfell to make that deal and bring Theon back. Unless i’m missing something, there was never any real doubt as to who ‘the boy’ was.
    It really annoyed me that this was built up as a mystery when really it was quite obvious it wasn’t

  31. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Jenny of Oldstones,

    I know that TV Shae has been written to be more than a “whore”, but I can imagine what she’ll do to keep herself alive when she is discovered as Tyrion’s “mistress”. Should be dreadful to see her (coerced?) betrayal of Tyrion after the PW. Looking forward to it….(next year)…

  32. PatD
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    I know a lot of people are eagerly awaiting something else, but I cannot wait for The Battle of Castle Black.

  33. Nagga's Kin
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    O/T -

    David Peterson has finally published the English translation of the letter Talisa had written to her mother:

    http://www.dothraki.com/2013/06/mhysa

  34. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    kalacakra,

    You would think it would be quite obvious, but most of the non-readers I know had no idea, and somewhere about midway through the season stopped caring; which is an unfortunate result of a plot decision that I think D&D had to make.

    They couldn’t very well go without Theon for 2-3 seasons, and hearing all about the torture would have been ineffectual in getting to the deeper understanding of why Theon has let go of his identity. The problem is, that they had the Red Wedding looming and couldn’t tip their hand with Roose too early. This resulted in a need to protract a story that could have been told in 4-5 episodes.

    Overall, I don’t think it was nearly as damaging to the show as a lot of folks made it out to be. I think really it just didn’t have the level of impact that it could have.

  35. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Mike: No. Because people think it was a terrible, anticlimactic way to end the season. If you think most love it, you have not been paying attention to the comments here.

    I agree with them that it was underwhelming, but I also agree with you that they blow it out of proportion. That does not mean it is not controversial. It quite plainly is.

    Non-readers on another forum I frequent almost universally thought it was a cheesy scene.

    I didn’t mind it at all, but really didn’t think it was an effective way to end the season. I’m still on the LS bandwagon, and think ending with her resurrection would’ve been infinitely more compelling.

  36. Arthur
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    Also the theme of the finale all throughout Westeros were of the “Small Folk” getting shit on and used by the High Born… While across the Narrow Sea Dany is freeing them and beloved by them.

    It was a pretty powerful scene showing the contrast..,

  37. Alex of Dorne
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Gotta say I think the season overall was just about the strongest, but I think the big disappointment for many book readers was obviously the lack of Lady Stoneheart. I think we built it up too much and made presumptions about the way D&D would end the season, so it’s partly our own fault I guess. Even if I still think it would’ve been a great way to end it

    If there were two things I would have changed slightly it would be a) moving up the Yunkai conquest scene to this episode. This would have made the final scene feel more earnt rather than just tacked on at the end. And b) I would have presented Ramsey’s reveal differently. Not only taunt Theon about the red wedding and how his taking of Winterfell ultimately got his best friend killed, but also why not really push the fact that it was Ramsey who burnt Winterfell to the ground? The show probably implied it, but I really think that being spelled out would make more sense of his connection with the story and with Roose’s plan, and make viewers feel like they hadn’t wasted time with him and Theon this season. That reveal really didn’t have the impact I felt it could have – reading unsullied reviews and speaking with my unsullied friends they’re still confused why that storyline even matters.

    Ok rant over..! Still think the ending gave us what we needed to set up an EPIC season 4 :)

  38. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Oh come on….really? You didn’t like the mass speculation just a little, teeny-weeny bit? It was great fun…from the purist posts to the insane posts to the ignorant posts. Made the time pass by rather enjoyably while I cooked meals and took a break from work. I recall your posts were a bit speculative as well! What was your batting average….2 for 3, 3 for 5, or 1 for 4 (like me). I often wonder what the reaction would have been if a certain post-RW scene was included as the last scene in ep 10. Probably the same comments but inverted to reflect the “Wow!” factor that could have been (and probably will be).

  39. kalacakra
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Thanks, that makes sense.

  40. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Alex of Dorne,

    Oh I agree… this season was by far my favorite of the three. I loved it…

    Going to do a repost from the episode discussion here, as i came in too late to be a part of the discussion, so forgive the indulgence:

    First, my overall impressions of the final episode were positive. I enjoyed the added scenes with the Boltons. I thought all the KL material was excellent, with the exception of Jamie and Cersei’s reunion. Jon Snow finally acts and gets back to Castle Black. Sam has actually gone several episodes now without a pervy comment. Arya and the Hound were great. I even enjoyed Dany’s scene, despite some flaws.

    I did think that some things could have been better, and other parts could have contributed more to the continuity of the show. For instance, I am not sure why they chose to omit Bran asking Sam to keep his quest secret. At this point why would Sam NOT say anything to Jon? I also think they jumped the gun with the Jamie/Cersei reunion and as a result that scene wasn’t as powerful as it could have been. I think Dany’s final scene would have been better if her scenes from last week’s episode had been in “Myhsa”. As it stands, it does seem to be shoehorned in as a “finale scene” and as a result comes up a bit short.

    Now to get to some of the more hot topics regarding this episode:

    Arya and the Hound: A lot of people seem to be thinking that because Arya killed a Frey this episode that we won’t be getting the inn scene and her getting Needle back. I think this is a bit ridiculous to think. She will still get Needle back, and the Hound will still take a mortal wound. They have to add a lot to her story the existing source material is about to dry up. I can’t imagine that D&D won’t take advantage of the scene chemistry that Arya and the Hound share. I predict by episode 4 we will be wondering when she will actually move on from the Hound.

    Bran and Coldhands: I think the same can be said for this story arc. At this point Bran only has 3 more chapters for the rest of the written text. It seems to me that they will focus Bran’s adventures around Coldhands for his Season 4 arc. They are going to have to expand his story, or otherwise he will be far too ahead of the rest of the story.

    Lady Stoneheart: Come on guys. This is absolutely one of the silliest group mind complaints I have seen thus far, probably more so even than the outcry about the missing Reeds. To me there was no reason to expect LS so early. If D&D choose to include this plot, they have to wait until the timing is right or all the impact is lost. If they revive Catelyn Stark less than a day after her death, what possible impact does her death have? I am just stunned at how many book readers expected and WANTED this to happen so soon. I would completely diminish the impact and “literary lesson” that is supposed to be imparted by the RW. I am just baffled at the amount of uproar surrounding this plot thread.

    I know I am not going to change any minds with this post, but I just wanted to put my two cents in. I thought this season was incredible, and much more confident than its preceding seasons. Season 1 was definitely the most faithful adaptation, but it was always going to be the easiest to adapt. Season 2 definitely suffered from uneven pacing, writing and direction. However, I feel Season 3 is really where the show has finally set itself apart from the books and discovered its own identity. This is NOT a bad thing. There is no way that the show can continue to be entertaining AND be a direct page to screen adaptation. The book is not written that way. We have to accept this. What we have now is a visually incredible show that is far exceeding a level of complexity that very few shows have tried to achieve. The show runners have done a great job of reinventing the genre for television and keeping the broad strokes of GRRM’s story in tact.

    I am not going to tell anyone to stop watching because they don’t like it, but I would say to prepare yourself for more deviations from the books, because its only going to get more drastic from here.

  41. GoTAddict
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    am I the only one who hated the whole Theon storyline? Iwan and Alfie did a great job but this storyline was the most disturbing and less enjoyable to watch. i’m just happy this is over. for now.
    enjoyed the finale and this season apart from the Theon thing very much.

  42. db
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Really? That’s all they have to say about that racist ending? ffff

  43. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I gotta agree with GreatJon on this one. The amount of speculation that arose from the sound of a gong on a soundtrack piece to the point of raising the expectations beyond reason was absolutely insane. I mean this whole forum was SURE that LS was going to be in the finale, all based on what, a half a second musical punctuation. Just baffling to me.

    Especially since its FAAAR to early for that anyway (see my previous post)

  44. Ned's Head
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    It’s only a ray of light if you like the Targaryens. If you prefer the Starks, than Dany’s progress while the Starks are slaughtered does nothing for you. She’s the consolation hero, and feels every bit like a secondary figure, despite her dragons. This is not just a problem for D&D but also Martin, as fans have never embraced Dany quite like they have the Starks. She’s simply the b-list hero of the story.

  45. StephenD
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    GoTAddict,

    no you are not. didn’t like this part too. it was senseless and stole a lot of screentime. similar to the whole Ros thing.

  46. StephenD
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Ned’s Head,

    this one is not true. i love the starks and i love dany. i loved the ending of the red wedding and i loved the ending of mhysa. ok it wasn’t as epic as the first season finale but better than the second. and after the RW i didn’t expect a big cliffhanger or something like that at all. we got a great ending and all the racism and discussions here are overrated. get over it.

  47. Oi!
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    db,

    Hahahaha oh wow, amazing…

  48. WompWomp
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    Tori Targaryen,

    You may like the scene, that’s fine, but the final scene causing controversy is a fact.

    Some people seemed to like Jon and Ygritte’s scene, which eases my own dislike for it, but I can’t get over Dany’s scene. Watching the episode again has allowed me to appreciate all the wonderful moments it holds (possibly my overall favorite among the finales barring the ending), but I cringe at the Mhysa scene each time. Little touches seem so off to me. Dissatisfying lead-up to the Mhysa chant, stale camera work, crowd surfing, strangely sparse formation of Unsullied around Dany standing on a rock… I just don’t buy it. I don’t even care a certain character didn’t make the cut in the end anymore. Reactions from non-readers have been mixed as well.

    Gotta admit, though, it was a very strong episode for me after I cast my expectations aside, Dany drudgery not withstanding.

  49. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist:
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I gotta agree with GreatJon on this one.The amount of speculation that arose from the sound of a gong on a soundtrack piece to the point of raising the expectations beyond reason was absolutely insane.I mean this whole forum was SURE that LS was going to be in the finale, all based on what, a half a second musical punctuation.Just baffling to me.

    Especially since its FAAAR to early for that anyway (see my previous post)

    FWIW, my expectations for that scene appearing in the finale were set by the story that they told all throughout this season (i.e. all of the stuff with Beric and Thoros), as well as the logistics of having to keep something like that a secret for a whole year, not from the sound at the end of the music. I had never even heard that song before watching the episode.

    Also, the timing of it being in the finale is not too soon. In the book, the resurrection happened 3 days after the RW.

  50. Wrath of the Gods
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I’m still pissed we didn’t end with LS !!! Arghhhhhhdjsodjdbaudorldcbbehdycbei

  51. Wrath of the Gods
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    And Danys last scene was just way too cheesy. I knew it was coming but I never imagined it to be cheesy at all. I think its just the directing.

  52. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    You have to wonder though if D&D and the Cogman sometimes don’t hit their head with the palm of their hand and say “Doh! Why didn’t we think of that?” after hearing/reading speculations. The Talisa speculations alone were amazing to read…and D&D chose the simplest, most visually stunning, option (Occam’s Razor, anyone?).

    Please don’t get me wrong…I enjoy the differences between the book and show…but I also love a good “What if…?”.

  53. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Fair enough, but don’t you think that Beric and his crew still will have their plot set up paid off. I mean, I know the resurrection itself happens within the week, but the reveal doesn’t happen til much later.. I see them reminding viewers about Cat via Arya dream or Nymeria or BWB.. and the reveal happening much as it did in the books, AFTER she has already been revived and started to reek havoc. A much better way to do it IMO

  54. WompWomp
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Merits of speculation aside, it wasn’t far too early for her. Nobody theorized an adaptation of the epilogue to round out the season. There is still hope among us that a certain off-page moment will be adapted to the screen, as said scene unfolding on-screen would pack a helluva punch. This is why so many of us hoped it would happen. It would have continued the assumed pattern of epic endings GoT is now known for. Fans of all stripes have expressed the weakness of Dany’s closing scene. Some of us just happened to hope the last scene of the season would rock everyone’s socks off. There were more than a few coincidences we could construe as signs. I don’t need to name them here.

    I can’t complain about what wasn’t in the episode, but I still hope the scene in question makes it to the end of an episode in S4.

  55. mariamb
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Alex of Dorne:
    Lycanthropist,

    If there were two things I would have changed slightly it would be a) moving up the Yunkai conquest scene to this episode. This would have made the final scene feel more earnt rather than just tacked on at the end.

    My thoughts exactly. The scene felt like it came out of nowhere…almost as if someone said “Ooops, we need to get a Dany scene in the finale.” We already knew that they conquered Yunkai. The two scenes should have been in the same episode.

    Jenny of Oldstones: I think she’ll get jealous of Sansa and angry with Tyrion, probably further inflamed by some fight before the PW and that’s why she betrays him. Her ending in bed with Tywin though, couldn’t say, but we don’t really get an explanation in aSoS either, other than jewels and money. That isn’t really like show-Shae though. Perhaps revenge?

    I agree. Shae’s patience is wearing thin. She may come to believe that Tyrion wants her gone and had arranged for Varys to bring her the diamonds. (I personally would have grabbed those diamonds and left in a split second but…what do I know. ) It will not be greed that drives TVShae to betray Tyrion but anger, hurt and jealousy.

  56. Alex of Dorne
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    db,

    Don’t know if you’ve read the books, but I’m curious for those who have who also found the ending slightly racist, or at least uncomfortable – what made the television version of that scene different to warrant that response? Was it the way it was shown somehow?
    Or is it a reaction only coming from non book readers? Just interested, not trying to spark controversial discussion :)

  57. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Yes! Let’s hope S4 starts 2-3 days after the RW and gets the season moving with a “holy shit!” moment.

  58. WompWomp
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Wrath of the Gods:
    And Danys last scene was just way too cheesy. I knew it was coming but I never imagined it to be cheesy at all. I think its just the directing.

    Totally. It’s not that the idea of the scene itself was awful. I just found it fell woefully short of the show’s standards. Just look at the other ending scenes, even for non-finale episodes this season. It was just off.

  59. mariamb
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Winter Is Coming,

    Yes! Let’s hope the S4 starts 2-3 days after the RW and gets the season started with a “holy shit!” moment.

    I was just about to say the same thing. The appearance of LS in the first episode of S4 would be awesome. I don’t think it can happen at the end of S4.

  60. Winter Is Coming
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Lycanthropist,

    Merits of speculation aside, it wasn’t far too early for her. Nobody theorized an adaptation of the epilogue to round out the season. There is still hope among us that a certain off-page moment will be adapted to the screen, as said scene unfolding on-screen would pack a helluva punch. This is why so many of us hoped it would happen. It would have continued the assumed pattern of epic endings GoT is now known for. Fans of all stripes have expressed the weakness of Dany’s closing scene. Some of us just happened to hope the last scene of the season would rock everyone’s socks off. There were more than a few coincidences we could construe as signs. I don’t need to name them here.

    I can’t complain about what wasn’t in the episode, but I still hope the scene in question makes it to the end of an episode in S4.

    This.

    And the fact that they didn’t include said scene when they already had the necessary actors available, and when they had a finale desperately in need of a strong ending, makes me wonder if we will see that scene at all. Or even if we will see that storyline at all.

  61. Ashara D
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    TheOtherOther,

    You’re comparing standard unrealistic movie crap to this and saying that junk makes THIS crap? I say it is far MORE realistic that the downtrodden would be inclined to be tentative and distrustful of this unknown conqueror; even pose a danger to her as the former slaves realize that they are free to rise up against anyone that may mean to put them back under thrall. If you listen to the dialog, you will understand the motivation. If you know anything of real history, you know that conquerors often faced more resistance than was shown to the conquered ruling class. And if you read the books (you are a book reader, right?) you understand that that is precisely what happens in Meereen! I agree that the crowd surf image perhaps made an unintended connection ( I think it may have been intended to be a cross image, but ended up more rock concert) in viewer’s minds, but the final image is beautiful and connects viewers back to the gruesome spiral of horseheads in the first episode of the season, and thus back to the central conflict between Ice and Fire. It was a very well done piece of cinema IMHO for those that have eyes to see.

  62. Fury
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    agree with everything you said.

  63. WompWomp
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Alex of Dorne,

    I’ve heard that reaction from both non-readers and readers. Am I a bad person for thinking that’s one of the latest reasons that scene failed to affect me? Dany’s chapters in the books are pretty heavy with Orientalism to start with, and check out the Unsullied, even the Dothraki. I found the racial component incidental to the fact she’s freeing slaves, who I might add are trafficked by other people of color, as can often be the case.

  64. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    mariamb,

    Oh yeah! Let’s see them splice in LS and her BwB suitors wreaking havoc all over the Riverlands throughout S4! Oh Mhysa!

  65. WompWomp
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Aye. If anything, the logistics (as far as we can tell) were in their favor to shoot it this year. I thought it would have been a reasonable inclusion. None of us were expecting a lot of fireworks, just a singularly unsettling moment that would haunt us all year, readers and non-readers alike.

  66. WompWomp
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    I really, really like the Skrothic corpse art. I find the comparison to crop circles fascinating.

    I didn’t make that connection when I saw Dany’s scene. It doesn’t make it any better for me, but it’s an interesting point. I really think the crowdsurf trivialized the moment. Mothers don’t crowdsurf. They walk among their children and hold their hands.

  67. Maxwell James
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    People, come on. Shae will sleep with Tywin in order to save Tyrion. That’s what will make it so freakin’ tragic. It is known.

  68. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    db:
    Really? That’s all they have to say about that racist ending? ffff

    I’m glad they didn’t. I mean by those standards it’s a racist storyline, so if you’re going to be hung up on that fact, start there.

  69. NoOne
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    What’s funny is the selective way people choose robbed politically correct, I haven’t seen many complaints about severed animal heads, a child stabbing a man to death, a pregnant woman being killed, then they do something unintentional and that’s controversial, I don’t get it.

  70. Jenny of Oldstones
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James:
    People, come on. Shae will sleep with Tywin in order to save Tyrion. That’s what will make it so freakin’ tragic. It is known.

    I honestly naver considered that option, but I do have my doubts about its likelihood. Why would Tywin be influenced by a whore? Shae doesn’t know the least bit about Tywin being ruled by Joanna. Surely conspiring with Varys is a better option for her. If I were Shae it wouldn’t even occur to me that I could seduce Tywin, leave alone convince him to save his son.
    It sure would put an end to the Tyrion white-washing though, interesting option, and, after Tywin told him her intentions after Tyrion murdered her on top of Jaime’s truth about Tysha, it would make sense for Tyrion to be as bitter as he became.
    I’ll guess we’ll see.

  71. Steven Swanson
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist:
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I gotta agree with GreatJon on this one.The amount of speculation that arose from the sound of a gong on a soundtrack piece to the point of raising the expectations beyond reason was absolutely insane.I mean this whole forum was SURE that LS was going to be in the finale, all based on what, a half a second musical punctuation.Just baffling to me.

    Especially since its FAAAR to early for that anyway (see my previous post)

    I was never sure of it and haven’t heard the track, I just thought it would be the most effective way to end the season. People did seem to get a little attached to its inevitability, though.

    And I don’t think it was too early at all, it could have been several days later (as time has obviously passed since Sam traveled back to Castle Black and the ravens reached their destinations), and everybody watching had a full week to stew. It’s a very different medium and hearing that scene described well after the fact like it is in the book just won’t carry the same weight. I’m still holding out hope we see it as the closing scene of episode 1 next season.

  72. Visennya Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Actually, the slaves in Yunkai come from all over Essos and a lot of them are white. The show was wrong to depict all the slaves as POC because it’s pretty clear in the books they’re not all POC. Also, Daenerys is NOT a white savior, nor should she be depicted as such.

  73. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Ok, these are fair arguments, and ones I must admit I haven’t read before. However, I would like to clarify that when I say it is too early, its not so much that its too early to show her resurrection, but too early for the Lady Stoneheart reveal. The reveal has to be a shock, and a bit out of nowhere in my mind. If GRRM had chosen to reveal Catelyn’s resurrection in the next few chapters following the RW, I would have felt like it was cheap and bit too deus ex machina. Where the reveal is placed, at the end of what was on overwhelmingly emotional volume, you are caught off guard and smacked again, just as you were trying to wrap your brain around everything that happened prior to the epilogue.

    I understand the want to see some of LS’s exploits prior to the scene we first meet her in the books, but I think it would be a mistake. Look what happened when they chose to show the real time actions with Theon, rather than waiting til the right moment to reveal. I don’t think they had much of a choice with Theon, but with LS, they have an opportunity to capture that out of left field moment from a character whose arc was presumed over.

    Just my .02

  74. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    And also, I didn’t think it was out of place or all that ridiculous to speculate about LS appearance in this finale, but I do think that a lot of the critiques of this season’s finale are far too colored by that over hyped expectation.

  75. WildSeed
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen:
    WompWomp,

    Actually, the slaves in Yunkai come from all over Essos and a lot of them are white. The show was wrong to depict all the slaves as POC because it’s pretty clear in the books they’re not all POC. Also, Daenerys is NOT a white savior, nor should she be depicted as such.

    to quote Doctor Who ……. ” WHAT ? “

  76. Sir Horseman
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    the interesting question is why so many wanted the ‘group mind’ ending so much. i did, i think
    the reason is a feeling of revenge. you cant blame us for that

  77. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    NoOne: What’s funny is the selective way people choose robbed politically correct, I haven’t seen many complaints about severed animal heads, a child stabbing a man to death, a pregnant woman being killed, then they do something unintentional and that’s controversial, I don’t get it.

    Not sure where you’re reading then. Many people had a problem with the way Talisa was killed, the repeated stabbings in her belly. And people complain about the animal deaths all the time. People still complain about Lady and the horse in s1.

    No one complains about Arya though, because her actions make sense through her storyline arc. While disturbing, they make sense and don’t seem gratuitous because that is her character’s journey. It’s not “gratuitous” if it’s necessary.

  78. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Sir Horseman,

    Oh, when I read “group mind” I suddenly went into “hive” mode and yet another “mother” analogy. {anxiously awaiting EG!}

  79. Visennya Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    What is the “what” in reference to?

  80. WildSeed
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: Amen! Are we getting a Kingsmoot this year, or next? Ep 10 suggests not, but one never knows…

    You may be on to something with the uncertainty of the Kingsmoot for the Iron
    Islands. The GoT production occasionally follow a pattern that allows for amending
    certain stories in later episodes. When carefully applied, a well paced story comes
    into full understanding, or an onscreen character slowly emerges in full guise
    or uncloaked. Roose Bolton and Ramsey Snow comes to mind, and of course
    Roose’s nice summary to Walder Frey of the non clarified events of Winterfell’s
    demise. I’m hoping that Mance Rayder and Tormund ‘s roles become enriched
    beyond the glimpses that we’ve seen. As for the Greyjoy and Pike involvement,
    separate from Asha’s rescue mission, her story may simply become an individual
    effort that eventually leads to Stannis. The Kingsmoot , if allowed , may
    be the vehicle to introduce prominent players like Euron and Victarrion.

    After the fiasco of Qhorin Halfhand, and a number of other missteps, the lesson
    learned includes pacing certain stories instead of a mad rush to conclude.

    There’s also been some under the radar gripes about the Frey grandsons omitted
    from the link to lord Walder or Manderly’s link to the Starks and the wedding
    massacre where his son is later removed to Castery Rock. I believe this is too
    much detail for a season chock full full of profound events already. The
    grandsons provide no risk for deleting, but lord Manderly may provide some
    interest , in much later episodes as a conduit of information for Davos,
    and a wealthy stalwart supporter of the Starks, that provides strategic battle
    ships and news of Rickon.
    There was no mistaking Walder and Roose’s
    assumption that the Northmen are severely weakened in force, and most
    male head of household traveled alongside and murdered with Robb Stark.
    It would make for a clear underestimation of support. No worries though,
    there’s much time and details to further along than this one best left for
    future seasons.

  81. barak
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Ashara D,

    I really, really like the Skrothic corpse art. I find the comparison to crop circles fascinating.

    I didn’t make that connection when I saw Dany’s scene. It doesn’t make it any better for me, but it’s an interesting point. I really think the crowdsurf trivialized the moment. Mothers don’t crowdsurf. They walk among their children and hold their hands.

    For f’s sake! If you watch the scene you may notice that contrary to what people seem to parrot all over the internet, she DIDN’T crowdsurf. She was being lifted and made sit on two guys’ shoulders. People are exaggerating the hell out of the lifting part that lasted for like 2 seconds.

    And as for LS, if we never see that plotline in the show it will be too soon for me, so personally I’m not disappointed.

  82. barak
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Also, considering Emilia Clarke’s height it would’ve been rather impractical to make Dany walk in a group of (CGI) thousands. She would’ve been smothered.

  83. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    The last scene reminds me of this scene:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIVtma0fN7w#t=2m44s

  84. WildSeed
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen:
    WildSeed,

    What is the “what” in reference to?

    Sorry, I could think of nothing better at the time to convey my reaction to your
    earlier comment . To perceive any of these characters as ” white ” or ” black “,
    whatever that means, is ludicrous . From ASOIAF carefully constructed collage
    of people and their cultures, assigning 20th century designations defeats the
    purpose. Anyone could be enslaved, as you indirectly noted, no matter their
    country of origin, or public tittle, as ser Jorah, Tyrion and Penny observed
    all it took was a cause to do so or warrant . The people of these Island nations
    were accustomed to these practices, not unlike real life./b>

    I’m personally baffled by the perception of Danerys being anything but accepted
    as a female liberator that happens to be a silver haired fair skinned Targaryeon
    with odd colored eyes. She is indeed the ” mother of dragons “, and now a mother
    to a free nation. Perhaps your comments meant no harm but to imply a simplistic
    view, however in the real world response to such perceptions, the cut goes deeper
    than we’re sometimes aware. This ending became controversial because a select
    audience wrongly perceived more to the equation, and this should be debated on
    essential points on both sides of the spectrum. I would add that if the Targaryeons
    were not from Valyria and Dorne instead, there would be little to argue.
    I understand well the non scientific assertions for ” race “, but I remain sensitive
    to the distinctions that characterize our need to identify with traditions and culture.
    A human population may be established or genetically altered anywhere, according
    to the law of nature and verified by scientific means. For the sake of a lesser
    controversial subject matter, let’s let Danerys remain a Targaryeon with purple eyes
    and fair skin. Maybe she’s part faery. I’m sure that I’ve overstated my point, for that
    I apologize. I just hope to emphasize the lack of insult or intent in respect to the
    GoT ‘s Mhysa scene. Perhaps by reading more from those putting more succinct
    or concise comments, you may change your original mindset.

  85. WildSeed
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Ashara D,

    I really, really like the Skrothic corpse art. I find the comparison to crop circles fascinating.

    I didn’t make that connection when I saw Dany’s scene. It doesn’t make it any better for me, but it’s an interesting point. I really think the crowdsurf trivialized the moment. Mothers don’t crowdsurf. They walk among their children and hold their hands.

    Actually Danerys did this, with much anxiety from her guards whom she demanded
    to open a space for her. To be lifted up was rather an ancient form of honour,
    but I’m quite certain the aerial footage may have contributed to the staged event.

    When a gladiator or warrior is lifted and carried by a crowd, using once commonplace tradition ,no one is likely yelling ” crowd surf ” , but I see your point (:

  86. Reverse Nielsen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen,

    How should they have handled it? Seriously – where are you going to find a hundred white extras in Morocco? Even more difficult if you want slaves from each ethnicity in existence.

  87. barak
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Reverse Nielsen:
    Visennya Targaryen,

    How should they have handled it? Seriously – where are you going to find a hundred white extras in Morocco? Even more difficult if you want slaves from each ethnicity in existence.

    They could’ve whitened them digitally. I mean, that’s not offensive at all.

    Or they could’ve arranged something together with the Moroccan Tourist Office. “Want to be an extra on Game of Thrones? Want to see the beautiful shooting sites and enjoy Moroccan cuisine? With our amazingly cheap offer you can explore the country AND be a part of the legend!” etc. (Actually, thinking about it this would’ve been a pretty cool idea. Probably not very successful, though.)

    By the way, while the overwhelming majority of the crowd were dark-skinned, I saw some lighter-skinned people, too. It’s just that in Morocco you’re not going to be swimming in people with blond hair, blue eyes and pasty white skin. Local people tend to have dark hair and eyes even if they’re white. And considering that the characters are dirty and wear drab colors…

  88. caroline
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Ok people let me break it down for you: They filmed in Morocco. They used Moroccan extras. That is how Moroccans look like. It’s cheap, it’s the best option and they are not going to go get hundreds of white extras to what? Satisfy racially sensitive people? Get over it.

    That being said I personally liked the final scene and I’m not ashamed to admit it!

  89. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I liked it … a little bit. But ultimately I felt like it ended up detracting from my enjoyment in the end as I was reading tea leaves about a “bong” sound on a soundtrack. So yes, I did it this year – but I’m going to avoid it next year; it’s ultimately stressful to me in the same way as the “They’re eliminating Chett from the Night’s Watch! The show is doomed!” type-posts or the whole “I’m not sure I like the trailer for this year…the show is doomed!” posts are. So yes, I was in the mix on that – but won’t do it next year.

    I prefer the casting speculation, which is much more fun. Temura Morrison for the Red Viper!!

  90. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: FWIW, my expectations for that scene appearing in the finale were set by the story that they told all throughout this season (i.e. all of the stuff with Beric and Thoros), as well as the logistics of having to keep something like that a secret for a whole year, not from the sound at the end of the music. I had never even heard that song before watching the episode.

    Also, the timing of it being in the finale is not too soon. In the book, the resurrection happened 3 days after the RW.

    A bunch of us were doing it based on the soundtrack thread that was out there…so we’re the guilty ones, WIC, not you. (And start a casting thread! :)

  91. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Winter Is Coming,

    Aye. If anything, the logistics (as far as we can tell) were in their favor to shoot it this year. I thought it would have been a reasonable inclusion. None of us were expecting a lot of fireworks, just a singularly unsettling moment that would haunt us all year, readers and non-readers alike.

    It’s possible they did shoot it, and decided to leave it until next year — just as this year’s opening scene “Did you send the ravens” — was shot the previous season. It would indeed make for one hell of a cold opening. It would also work if it is left unsaid entirely other than vague rumors of Freys dying, and then it closes the season rather than opens it.

  92. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: You may be on to something with the uncertainty of the Kingsmoot for the Iron
    Islands. The GoT production occasionally follow a pattern that allows for amending
    certain stories in later episodes. When carefully applied, a well paced story comes
    into full understanding, or an onscreen character slowly emerges in full guise
    or uncloaked. Roose Bolton and Ramsey Snow comes to mind, and of course
    Roose’s nice summary to Walder Frey of the non clarified events of Winterfell’s
    demise. I’m hoping that Mance Rayder and Tormund ‘s roles become enriched
    beyond the glimpses that we’ve seen. As for the Greyjoy and Pike involvement,
    separate from Asha’s rescue mission, her story may simply become an individual
    effort that eventually leads to Stannis. The Kingsmoot , if allowed , may
    be the vehicle to introduce prominent players like Euron and Victarrion.

    Some good points here.

    –They delayed the introduction of the Reeds, and it worked fine.

    –They delayed the separation of Bran and Rickon, and it worked well, developing the character of Bran more as he moves to protect his brother and decide to go north, rather than having Luwin make the decision for him.

    –What Yara said in the finale points to that being the largest part of the Greyjoy plot next year. She says she’s going to sail “Up the narrow sea, all the way up the Weeping Water…and march on the Dreadfort.” Well, Pyke is all the way on the other effing side of the Narrow Sea, and requires going around the Shield Islands, Dorne, and up through the entire Narrow Sea to get to the North AGAIN. That’s either A) only a few occasional appearances by Yara and Theon (hopefully in the latter, just given the repetitive nature of his scenes this year), or B) a lot of scenes of Yara on the boat. It’s hard to see how that doesn’t require most of next season before we get to the Kingsmoot.

    –Furthermore, D&D have already talked about culling the cast, so to speak. We’ll get more of that next year, and then perhaps they can move Euron/Victarion into the mix for the 5th season. Chronologically it makes sense – I guess it just seemed like it would make sense to get more Greyjoys in Season 4 and Dorne in Season 5, but the cast is big already, and we’re getting the Magnar of Styr, The Red Viper, Mace Tyrell and probably Ellaria Sand next year, along with (maybe) the more minor types like Cotter Pyke, Denys Malister, and, if it’s worked out artfully, Elder Brother.

    –There are also other unexplored avenues to work with. We don’t know whether Rickon and Osha are really on Skagos (per ADwD), but Bran telling them to head for The Last Hearth at least points to either the casting of one or two more Umbers (always fun, just find some big dudes) or that they’ve managed to get Clive Mantle back into the fray (again, it’s a diversion from his capture at RW, but at this point that doesn’t matter). And it presents the possibility, once again, of bringing together disparate personalities and seeing how it works out similar to Jaime/Brienne, Arya/Hound, Bronn/Tyrion, Varys/(everyone). Jon Umber with Tonks? Yes please.

    –Please, fellas, try to work Salladhor Saan in there next year if only for one scene. He’s such a great welcome presence, the actor is great, and oddly enough the only TRUE disappointment I had with the finale is that I was hoping Davos was going to spirit Gendry off Dragonstone and onto Salla’s ship! Oh well!

  93. Echoes in a well
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    At first (just hearing about it from reading this now) I thought that the idea of the final scene being racist so patently absurd that I felt a little bad for the people that had to look so hard to cry foul. But, after watching the scene a few times and reading what people say about it, ya, ok, I get it. (colonialism undertones yadayada). The only problem with the whole notion is that the slave owners had the same complexion and that, besides the trading city of Qarth, every city/area shown in the show has been completely homogenous. You know, similar to how it was during the Middle Ages.

    Until the very tail end of the Middle Ages with the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves in any region were ethnically similar to each other (slaves comes from slavs). (Side note, GRRM definitely got the idea of a trained slave army from the Ottoman Empire) But since the show isn’t able to to use text to explain the diverse slave population (and more importantly the whole extras in Morocco point), the show stays true to portraying a medieval time period, not a colonial one.

    Anyway, end of rant. I loved the episode and like Winter is Coming totally waited until the end of the credits thinking that there might be one more scene. I totally expected Lady Stoneheart to appear at the end of the episode and was a little disappointed, but now that I’ve taken a step back and thought about it, I’m so happy that they didn’t because (still 98% sure she will be in the show) it can be done so much cooler/better then just showing her come back to life. Maybe a glimpse into an Arya dream with the Hound telling her after ‘It was just a dream child’ followed by rumors around the Riverlands of a ruthless woman executing Freys and Lannisters until BOOM UnCat is revealed

  94. Lex
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    I loved the finale. Just like last year, it contained so many wonderful moments, and did a good job of both wrapping things up AND setting other things up for next year.

    I didn’t think the Dany scene was cheesy or offensive. I thought it was uplifting, and the aerial shot (showing freed slaves, Unsullied, and flying dragons) was beautiful. Yes, it was less shocking and supernatural than we’re used to, as far as finales go, but it was still good.

    My conclusion: people love to whine and complain.

  95. Chickenduck
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber

    –There are also other unexplored avenues to work with. We don’t know whether Rickon and Osha are really on Skagos (per ADwD), but Bran telling them to head for The Last Hearth at least points to either the casting of one or two more Umbers (always fun, just find some big dudes) or that they’ve managed to get Clive Mantle back into the fray (again, it’s a diversion from his capture at RW, but at this point that doesn’t matter). And it presents the possibility, once again, of bringing together disparate personalities and seeing how it works out similar to Jaime/Brienne, Arya/Hound, Bronn/Tyrion, Varys/(everyone). Jon Umber with Tonks? Yes please.

    +1 to that from me! Geez I loved Clive in season 1. Would love to see him again… was excited that they namechecked the Umbers when sending Rickon and Osha away. I think they like Natalia Tena too much to cut her entirely anyway.

  96. Chickenduck
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Echoes in a well:
    At first (just hearing about it from reading this now) I thought that the idea of the final scene being racist so patently absurd that I felt a little bad for the people that had to look so hard to cry foul. But, after watching the scene a few times and reading what people say about it, ya, ok, I get it. (colonialism undertones yadayada).

    My wife majored in post-colonial literature… and it didn’t really strike her as deliberately racist. Obviously the White Saviour link can be validly made, but maybe that will just make for a great contrast when Dany’s somewhat simplistic value judgments coming crashing down in a messy heap around her in Meereen. Either way, I think it’s mostly just the reality of shooting the scene in Morocco where the extras are all Moroccan.

    I think there are issues with how Slaver’s Bay (and to an extent, the whole of Essos) are shown in the books. The Westerosi are well fleshed out as characters, have family ties, sigils, backstory, and if they’re evil they still articulate it well… The Essoans (the Slaver’s Bay ones particularly) on the other hand are shown as fairly 2D characters whose main cultural quirks seem to be liking slavery, togas and eating dogs. But I’ve complained about that WAY too many times already.

    Maybe the issue is that the Essoans are only shown through the eyes of (Westerosi) outsiders in the books?

    To be fair, the Free Cities characters tend to be more detailed, even if they still sometimes go a bit “generic swashbuckler exotic” for my liking.

  97. Visennya Targaryen
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    It would be convenient to dismiss any discussion of race when talking about a fantasy series, but the series exists in a world where race is a big deal so it’s pointless and kind of insensitive to insist that we should ignore it. Also, the characters may be of fictional races but the actors sure aren’t so obviously the issue is going to come up.

    I really liked the ending scene and the episode as a whole. But there are so few nonwhite characters that it was kind of jarring to see all these brown-skinned slaves basically worshipping a white woman. I highly doubt the writers/director/producers were intending to be racially insensitive but that doesn’t excuse them. Racism doesn’t have to be intentional in order to qualify as racism.

    Also, my comment wasn’t in anyway “simplistic.” What IS simplistic is the show’s decision to default all the slaves as brown-skinned when it’s really clear in the book that they’re more diverse than that.

  98. Shan
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: I’m glad they didn’t. I mean by those standards it’s a racist storyline, so if you’re going to be hung up on that fact, start there.

    It’s not a racist storyline. It’s a storyline about a racist person (Daenerys). She grows out of it eventually.

  99. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Lex: I loved the finale. Just like last year, it contained so many wonderful moments, and did a good job of both wrapping things up AND setting other things up for next year.

    I didn’t think the Dany scene was cheesy or offensive. I thought it was uplifting, and the aerial shot (showing freed slaves, Unsullied, and flying dragons) was beautiful. Yes, it was less shocking and supernatural than we’re used to, as far as finales go, but it was still good.

    My conclusion: people love to whine and complain.

    Or possibly they are genuinely upset by the scene, and they don’t just “love to whine” simply because they don’t agree with you. Not everyone interprets things the same way you do, but their opinions are still valid. You were not offended but there was a wide range of reactions to that scene. And it was not only the social justice-oriented viewers who felt that way, but many viewers and a lot of the critics.

    Even if you ignore the white savior critique, it was still a pretty boring season-finisher. There was no tension, no catharsis. I don’t think anyone really doubted that the slaves would be glad to be freed, and the crowd-surfing was laughable, them carrying her on their shoulders like she QBed the Superbowl. It was just…oh that’s nice for Dany, I guess.

  100. We do not Hodor
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    I am sick unto death of people dumping on season 3, episode 10. Get over yourselves. Read the books. They ended well and if you needed LS to make you orgasm, well, sad for you and your “microwave” generation mentality. That scene belongs in season 4 along with all the other great scenes we are going to get. I hate the House of the Undying, but I am not going to waste time pissing and moaning about it. This is a great show and I predict season 4 will be the BEST season. I’ll keep reading for the casting rumors, but GODS BE GOOD, I AM SICK OF THE WHINING ON THIS SITE OTHERWISE. If it weren’t for Oz and his unsullied, I would have punched out long ago.

    Oh, and for WiC, TOLD YOU SO! (Check it, called the season finale in the episode title post!)

  101. A Storm of S-Words
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    mariamb: Shae: What will eventually drive her into Tywin’s bed? I’ve come to really enjoy this character in the show and am interested in her motivations going forward.

    I don’t think Shae will end up in Tywin’s bed at all.
    Book Shae is not the same as TV Shae. TV Shae loves Tyrion truly, loves Sansa, serves Sansa. Book Shae did none of those. TV Shae is motivated by completely different things. I regret to say that TV Shae will probably be killed though, just like book Shae. My prediction is that Tywin will find out about her and have her hanged, prompting Tyrion to kill him. Littlefinger already has suspicions that Tyrion likes a whore so maybe he’ll play a role. But it’s also possible that Shae will have some other future.

  102. mariamb18
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    A Storm of S-Words,

    I agree that ShowShae is different than BookShae. But I think that her end will be the same. Perhaps not be in Twyin’s bed but certainly with the chain…we have already seen it. As I stated above somewhere, I think that she is losing patience with Tyrion. She will be pushed over the edge and betray him. Right now, it’s all too good to be true.

  103. Lex
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Or possibly they are genuinely upset by the scene, and they don’t just “love to whine” simply because they don’t agree with you. Not everyone interprets things the same way you do, but their opinions are still valid. You were not offended but there was a wide range of reactions to that scene. And it was not only the social justice-oriented viewers who felt that way, but many viewers and a lot of the critics.

    Sucks to be them, I guess.

    I personally don’t understand how anyone who still views this show through a 21st century lense (i.e. feminism, social justice, racial issues) has lasted this long. I agree more with the poster above who said it was a portrayal of the Mother symbol, one of the oldest and most powerful symbols in human mythology. In that sense, I found it to be beautiful imagery.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder how those who were offended for social justice reasons view Mother Teresa?

    As for claims that it was boring or whatever, that’s where I firmly disagree. I was thoroughly entertained, as were all my friends. I forewarned them about the reactions I was seeing online, and several times during the episode they looked over and said “I thought you said people said this was slow?! WTF?” So yeah, different opinions and all that.

  104. Shan
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Lex: Sucks to be them, I guess.

    I personally don’t understand how anyone who still views this show through a 21st century lense (i.e. feminism, social justice, racial issues) has lasted this long. I agree more with the poster above who said it was a portrayal of the Mother symbol, one of the oldest and most powerful symbols in human mythology. In that sense, I found it to be beautiful imagery.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder how those who were offended for social justice reasons view Mother Teresa?

    I view Mother Teresa as a person who did a lot of good things and some bad things. That’s how I view almost everyone, although the balance of good and bad varies from person to person.

    Do you find that idea uncomfortable? It seems like you do, and I’m having a hard time understanding why. It seems like me feeling like there are some flaws in this show is totally ruining your ability to enjoy it. It’s sure not ruining my ability to enjoy it, so that’s a strange perspective to me.

    Do you only enjoy things (and people) that are completely flawless? It seems like that’s going to either leave you with a very short list of things (and people) to like, or else force you to not think very hard about the things (and people) that you enjoy. I don’t get that at all.

  105. Shan
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    We do not Hodor:
    I am sick unto death of people dumping on season 3, episode 10.Get over yourselves.Read the books.They ended well and if you needed LS to make you orgasm, well, sad for you and your “microwave” generation mentality.

    Microwaves were invented in the forties and were available for widespread home kitchen use by the late sixties. The microwave generation is currently approaching retirement age. Just throwing that out there.

  106. Lex
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    No, I’m actually just curious about the Mother Teresa thing. I personally do not think very positively of her at all, but I’m wondering if people who think the Dany scene was offensive in a colonialism-type of way see Mother Teresa (who is widely thought of as a saintly figure) in the same light or not. Just wondering.

    As for flaws, I definitely agree that the show has some. Quite a few, in fact. But overall I think they’re minor. And in this case I happen to think the finale was quite good, and I think the general controversy is a little overblown. Of course people can think whatever they want, but I think that as an episode it’s being unfairly underrated. Which is unfortunate, IMO. That’s all.

  107. Shan
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of that, really. ^_^

    I think the controversy has gotten overblown for two reasons:

    1. People keep arguing about it for some reason, despite the fact that most of us seem to agree that it’s kind of racist but not as racist as it could be.

    2. A lot of people who don’t read the books probably aren’t thinking about the fact that Daenerys’ story isn’t done yet. This scene (and the attitude that informs it and that is making people uncomfortable) seems uncomplicated now, but it gets complicated later on, and goes through all of those contortions of examination and deconstruction that GRRM loves so much. That’s why I’m fine with it — because the book doesn’t leave it like that, and hopefully neither will the show.

  108. Turncloak
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    +1

  109. Turncloak
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    A Storm of S-Words,

    I doubt this highly. D&D don’t short change the big moments

  110. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    You make excellent points with inclusion of salient lines spoken by onscreen Asha,
    among others in the script. The logistics of those book maps and passages also
    lend additional insights to speculate further , of the televised version. I’d be
    relieved if the Greyjoy men came about a bit later. Does it reason well that Asha/
    Yarra intend to take a similar route originally chosen for Davos ? Nah, that’s too
    rich to exclude, yet any wayward sailing by her ship would allow for a delayed
    entrance into the season, which may work well with the new character
    introductions and other emerging interest.
    . I’m really enjoying thinking
    this trough, and your thoughtful summary. At this point within ADWD, I was so
    excited to begin seeing a tide turn for the Starks , Stannis and Tyrion. That Wyman
    Manderly contributed any significant role than providing meat pies, really had my
    eyes bugging out (: . Will Asha and Stannis ever meet….. ? that’s really
    getting too far ahead, I’ll quit now *>*

    Benioff and Weiss must streamline the character list, and it remains a challenge
    to make it work , and eager fans to grasp. Some time time ago, there was mention of
    Damphair included in the Pike storyline, was that just a rumour that WiC mentioned ?
    I suffer no loss with the exclusion of Wyliss Tyrell or the Frey grandsons, but omitting
    ser Wyman would be a disappointment , I want to wear my Manderly’s Pies teeshirt,
    when the time comes, if it does (:

  111. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    People seem to want to complain a little too fucking much, if you ask me. I’m not believing a word about this controversy until a person of color takes an issue with it, which I haven’t seen. Until I do, it’s just a bunch of white folks getting upset for others, just because they’re so fucking sensitive. Give me a break. This is why the world is going to shit. Manufactured controversies around every corner.

  112. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen,

    No, it is not. Distinct cultures and physical descriptions are noted. All other judgement
    seems to come from the fan-verse, whom find it necessary to place personal values
    to the test. There are excellent forums for debating or extrapolating finer points
    of the text, as many have come to be. However, as the author often stated his intent
    to form a collage of known people and entities such as countries and such, I just
    have to take his word as fact. A purple eyed person from Valyria will defy any
    argument made for human origins or genetic study. Even if she is of fair, alabaster
    skin and pointed ears, I’d not perceive her as anything but Danerys Targaryeon,
    Fireborn and Mother of Dragons. The discussions of populations and genetic traits
    , discussed here, seem to take on a life of it’s own, omitting any scientific basis which
    it must include. Classifications , designations to be true, often reflect the group
    offering it up. I can appreciate the commonly sought after need to categorize , but
    it often discounts what is accurate. Ask any person of African descent, and the number
    of ” race ” designations offered to describe them , the number of name changes will
    surprise you. Describing someone’s features is usually acceptable, racial stuff just
    gets murky the more it’s discussed. If interested , check out this link or similar, for
    insight The Institute of Human Origins is but one reference .

    The link did not copy , try adding arizona state univ. edu

  113. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:57 am | Permalink

    NoOne:
    What’s funny is the selective way people choose robbed politically correct, I haven’t seen many complaints about severed animal heads, a child stabbing a man to death, a pregnant woman being killed, then they do something unintentional and that’s controversial, I don’t get it.

    You must be new here. Everything you mentioned ( except animal heads ) has been
    debated here, ad infinitum. I might be mistaken, but there may have been some
    grumbling about Bart the Bear hurting his paw (:

  114. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:04 am | Permalink

    Lex: Sucks to be them, I guess.

    I personally don’t understand how anyone who still views this show through a 21st century lense (i.e. feminism, social justice, racial issues) has lasted this long. I agree more with the poster above who said it was a portrayal of the Mother symbol, one of the oldest and most powerful symbols in human mythology. In that sense, I found it to be beautiful imagery.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder how those who were offended for social justice reasons view Mother Teresa?

    As for claims that it was boring or whatever, that’s where I firmly disagree. I was thoroughly entertained, as were all my friends. I forewarned them about the reactions I was seeing online, and several times during the episode they looked over and said “I thought you said people said this was slow?! WTF?” So yeah, different opinions and all that.

    One may do so by remaining in denial *>* .

    life is hard enough. I’m with Tyrion and his god of tits and wine (:

  115. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:24 am | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    People seem to want to complain a little too fucking much, if you ask me. I’m not believing a word about this controversy until a person of color takes an issue with it, which I haven’t seen. Until I do, it’s just a bunch of white folks getting upset for others, just because they’re so fucking sensitive. Give me a break. This is why the world is going to shit. Manufactured controversies around every corner.

    hmm…….. sensitive…… I’ll think further on that concept. For the record, I will
    stand counted as someone taking no offense AND a designated non white folk.
    I must admit there is much to take in with reading perceptions of some from
    reading the book passages. Womp Womp mentions an interesting one as an
    example. I found that a reasonable assertion to consider. Some writers may
    unintentionally include perceptions heavily influenced by abstract colonialism
    or fact. This may call into question some details, although I doubt it
    would be admitted in any forum, maybe to another peer, if at all. We just have
    to take his word for now, of ASOIAF an imaginary tale based on a collage
    of people and historical events. I’ll stick with that. When too many ifs emerge,
    it’s Doctor Who’s “Timey Wimey ” all over again (:

  116. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    Lex:
    Shan,

    No, I’m actually just curious about the Mother Teresa thing. I personally do not think very positively of her at all, but I’m wondering if people who think the Dany scene was offensive in a colonialism-type of way see Mother Teresa (who is widely thought of as a saintly figure) in the same light or not. Just wondering.

    As for flaws, I definitely agree that the show has some. Quite a few, in fact. But overall I think they’re minor. And in this case I happen to think the finale was quite good, and I think the general controversy is a little overblown. Of course people can think whatever they want, but I think that as an episode it’s being unfairly underrated. Which is unfortunate, IMO. That’s all.

    I was unaffected or missed their points while reading or viewing the show, but I
    appreciate ( only now ) the implied influence. I thoroughly enjoyed the season and
    finale in total ( rounding out minor flaws ). To each group , a saint or heroine is
    submitted in resemblance to something. I’m old enough to have acquired some
    wisdom and insights many have touched on here and in other past threads, with
    appreciation for the new insights and short sighted ignorances.

    My family was quite pagan so Mother Teresa had little impact within our household,
    just recognized as one of many, offering good.

    ” There’s none so blind as those who will not see “.

  117. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    WompWomp: Some people seemed to like Jon and Ygritte’s scene, which eases my own dislike for it, but I can’t get over Dany’s scene. Watching the episode again has allowed me to appreciate all the wonderful moments it holds (possibly my overall favorite among the finales barring the ending), but I cringe at the Mhysa scene each time. Little touches seem so off to me. Dissatisfying lead-up to the Mhysa chant, stale camera work, crowd surfing, strangely sparse formation of Unsullied around Dany standing on a rock… I just don’t buy it. I don’t even care a certain character didn’t make the cut in the end anymore. Reactions from non-readers have been mixed as well.

    Gotta admit, though, it was a very strong episode for me after I cast my expectations aside, Dany drudgery not withstanding.

    The only thing liked about Jon’s scene, was his being wounded in such a way
    that told of his harrowing escape from the Wildings. Whatever hardships
    the televised production may have for him ( or not ), at least makes his return
    narration a credible story to the Night’s Watch brothers. Without injury his
    long absence and showing up unharmed would be perceived as suspicious.
    The long look at Ygritte and admissions of love and romance has already
    stagnated several stories onscreen. Admittedly, onscreen Ygritte fares better than
    book Ygritte, but I never embraced the importance of her role ( other than her
    famous quote ). I kept my fingers crossed that a goodbye kiss would be omitted.
    Game of Romance has a terrible ring to it (:

  118. OhManymous
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    Also because people that don’t ship Dany aren’t really uplifted if she is winning, they are still depressed about the Starks. The good act doesn’t wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.

  119. Asha Karina
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    barak: They could’ve whitened them digitally. I mean, that’s not offensive at all.

    Or they could’ve arranged something together with the Moroccan Tourist Office. “Want to be an extra on Game of Thrones? Want to see the beautiful shooting sites and enjoy Moroccan cuisine? With our amazingly cheap offer you can explore the country AND be a part of the legend!” etc. (Actually, thinking about it this would’ve been a pretty cool idea. Probably not very successful, though.)

    By the way, while the overwhelming majority of the crowd were dark-skinned, I saw some lighter-skinned people, too. It’s just that in Morocco you’re not going to be swimming in people with blond hair, blue eyes and pasty white skin. Local people tend to have dark hair and eyes even if they’re white. And considering that the characters are dirty and wear drab colors…

    OMG Lindaaaaa, get out of this body you invaded ….It’s sad to tears to read this kinda stuff , Caroline you replied quite well in a rational producer way, but the obsession with that racial stuff makes me really uncomfortable (and that’s nothing to write). ..

  120. barak
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    Asha Karina: OMG Lindaaaaa, get out of this body you invaded ….It’s sad to tears to read this kinda stuff , Caroline you replied quite well in a rational producer way, but the obsession with that racial stuff makes me reallyuncomfortable (and that’s nothing to write). ..

    OMG! For the first time in my life someone has mistaken me for a Big Name Fan! *opens champagne*

    Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not her. I don’t even visit her site because I can’t stand the purist whining there. I’m not even the right nationality (or first language). And I’m not sure how you failed to notice that I actually mostly agreed with what Caroline said.

  121. Rosie
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Seven hells!

    There is nothing wrong with criticising the finale. It doesn’t mean we’re always looking for something bad. Holy mother of Tyrion! If people aren’t complaining about the show, they’re complaining about the complaints about the show.

    Yes, I wanted Stoneheart and yes, I was extremely irritated by Dany’s scene. That crowd surfing was laughable. It was something out of Avatar. But what’s done is done.

    And to the poster who mentioned viewing this show through a modern lens: I look at it from a feminist perspective a lot of the time. And I love it. Know why? Cos the women are the strongest.

    Excuse my frustration, but sometimes I think we all need to take a step back and respect each others views. We’re entitled to criticise things without it being cos we’re shitting on things purposely.

    Of course, that does not apply if someone dislikes Hodor. Then – riot time. [I joke.]

  122. Valar
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    word!

  123. barak
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    I don’t care if you liked the episode or not, but can people just stop harping about “crowd surfing”? She did not crowd surf. It was a 3 second long (I counted) shot in which she was lifted and seated on two guys’ shoulders. To my best knowledge that doesn’t amount to crowd surfing by far, and frankly I think it’s stupid to complain about it as such.

    And if the only way you can parse a scene of someone being lifted and carried like that is “lol like she won the Super Bowl” then I’m sorry but that’s not the show’s fault.

    I wasn’t enamoured with the final scene either, but some complaints are, frankly, ridiculous.

  124. TheOtherOther
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Ashara D:
    TheOtherOther,

    You’re comparing standard unrealistic movie crap to this and saying that junk makes THIS crap? I say it is far MORE realistic that the downtrodden would be inclined to be tentative and distrustful of this unknown conqueror; even pose a danger to her as the former slaves realize that they are free to rise up against anyone that may mean to put them back under thrall. If you listen to the dialog, you will understand the motivation. If you know anything of real history, you know that conquerors often faced more resistance than was shown to the conquered ruling class. And if you read the books (you are a book reader, right?) you understand that that is precisely what happens in Meereen! I agree that the crowd surf image perhaps made an unintended connection ( I think it may have been intended to be a cross image, but ended up more rock concert) in viewer’s minds, but the final image is beautiful and connects viewers back to the gruesome spiral of horseheads in the first episode of the season, and thus back to the central conflict between Ice and Fire. It was a very well done piece of cinema IMHO for those that have eyes to see.

    You are mising my points completely more because its likely because I am criticising the show.I have read all 5 books multiple times. I don’t care about what is done in the books actually and I am a huge fan of the TV show, if they change stuff I am fine with it. I am talking about one TV scene, which was poorly done.

    This show would be boring as hell if they did things exactly like the books.

    My point is that was a poorly executed scene for many reasons. The extras, location, scripted actions, motivations, etc.

    You said the slaves would be inclined to be tentative and distrustful of this unknown conqueror?

    In the previous episode, the Slaves sent to fight her defected, Jorah said it happened like Dany said, so it sounds like the slaves already had crossed sides. So why is there a tense moment here at the end, they already had gone over to her side?

    Daario already presented Yunkai to Dany, so she already had conquered the city, so why exactly was the pep-rally needed?

    I suppose it took Dany’s people some time to organize that pep rally, so this really wasn’t the moment she liberated the city. Maybe we would have been better off seeing that moment instead.

    Dany needed this organized and contrived rally to convince the slaves they were free? Nothing says freedom more than an organized pep-rally with ranks of spears pointed at you.

    My point being if I am trying to figure out why the heck they are standing out there and having the connect the dots on what is going on, bei ng distracted by that, then someone didn’t do a good writing job.

    Why were the unsullied being all guarded against a people who stood no threat absolutely at all. ?

    Did that crowd look dangerous? No. Were they armed? No.

    The Unsullied were the ones armed, who serve Dany. Now they had just liberated the city (off camera mostly), so what exactly where they worried about?

    Maybe that woman holding ababy was some secret badass with sick Ninja skills. Those tricky old men with five teeth can be dangerous. Who were the Unsullied worried about? Grey Worm, Daario, and Jorah could have taken that crowd themselves, they practically took one out the previous episode.

    If the slaves were supposed to have a hint of danger, then maybe put some dangerous types in the crowd, pan a shot on some slaves with angery expressions. I just saw a sea of people from a National Geographic special.

    Oh, maybe this is a different group of slaves, but I have no way of knowing that because it was never stated or explained. If I have to infer things like that, well that is just bad writing and means it could have been setup better earlier.

    Maybe if the Unsullied ere marching through the streets of Yunkai being led by Dany, before cheering crowds, that would convey a theme of liberation. That is the kind of thing the viewers subconsciously pick up, we all see parade type events as celebrations.

    The Romans Triumphs were things of celebration. Maybe they should have gone this route. In the HBO show Rome, Caesar’s triumph was one of the most powerful scenes of that show, not a single word is spoken either.

    So the Yunkai scene is beautiful and connects viewers back to the gruesome spiral of horseheads in the first episode of the season, and thus back to the central conflict between Ice and Fire?

    Well they did a piss poor job of conveying that message with the lilly white girl crowd surfing on a sea of brown people.

    That was too distracting visually, so I and the people who watched with me didn’t make that wonderful connnection you point out.

    I would have liked to have experienced that moment when watching the show, not have to read about it on WinterIsComing.

    I hated that end scene for its execution, it missed out on conveying many of the things you pointed out. A few simple changes and perhaps it could have worked.

    You see the slightest details convery these messages to the viewer. Many people didn’t liek the ending because it felt corny and contrived, where a few small changes could have turned that into a blockbuster scene.

    I love this TV show, but when I see poor execution and dislike something, I am going to point it out.

  125. WompWomp
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber: It’s possible they did shoot it, and decided to leave it until next year — just as this year’s opening scene “Did you send the ravens” — was shot the previous season. It would indeed make for one hell of a cold opening. It would also work if it is left unsaid entirely other than vague rumors of Freys dying, and then it closes the season rather than opens it.

    …and now my hopes are riding on this possibility. I didn’t know that about this years cold opening. Haha, pun…

    WildSeed,

    Very much agreed. I don’t see why they couldn’t have had her shoot him last week. The only benefit was the tension experienced by people who didn’t know whether she would shoot him or not, but I don’t think that moment was worth shattering suspension of disbelief by having Ygritte apparate behind him. It was also drawn out (ugh, another pun!) in the scene we got. She could have been conflicted about taking a shot last week just as easily, which would have mirrored her hesitation when Jon told her not to shoot the horse farmer.

    TheOtherOther,

    HAR! Agreed. For me, it’s not about being deflated over no Stoneheart resurrection anymore. Dany’s scene was just shockingly unaffecting and cheesier than a plate of double nachos, which it certainly didn’t have to be. The music was BEAUTIFUL. I consider its potential wasted on the scene we got.

    But before anyone assumes otherwise, all in all I thought we got the best finale yet this week. I found myself caring for each storyline they covered, and they were handled in mostly satisfying fashion. Mhysa just happened to have the worst final scene by a wide, wide margin. Compare the quality of S3′s production to that of S1 and S2. It’s leagues beyond both of them. And yet, both seasons have such memorable final moments, S1 especially. Just a darn shame. Ending partway through ASOS has nothing to do with it. It’s all on the execution. There was no reason the finale couldn’t have rounded out the season with blistering confidence.

    Speaking of blistering, I’m also dismayed they didn’t continue the unofficial tradition of ending with an explicit element. I guess they technically did with Dany being the focus, but part of why I had all my chips on Lady Stoneheart closing the season was the fact Catelyn was essentially “kissed by fire” when Beric went all Baywatch on her.

  126. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    TheOtherOther,

    I can see both sides of this S3 end-scene…both D&D and the director obviously wanted to end the season on an “uplifting” moment instead of continung down the dark path in the riverlands (which I personally find more interesting). I believe that Dany’s “winning” theme needs to be seriously tested in the coming season (providing more than ADWD scheming) in order for her character to be respected:

    1. Instead of a circus act, the dragons need to be a seriously chaotic factor in the show. They touched on this with Krasnys. Dragons are feared by the population and are naturally destructive. Every one of these Essos cities and outlying territorial camps could be turned into another Harrenhal at any moment. Tamed and trained dragons are for children. GRRM never went into great detail about their destructive behavior (except the b-bquing of a small child…but, heck, earlier they were fed the heads of sellswords…they have a taste for human blood) before R & V were absurdly chained and imprisoned, which was a bit disappointing.

    2. Dany’s followers are not in a utopia. There is respect for sudden change (the Mhysa moment) but to follow Dany is to suffer. Once she left Astapor, chaos and mutiny dominated that city, with militias and sellswords quite active. Dany did not make anything better for anyone, which is obvious in the books.

    3. Dany does not operate in a vacuum. Others are aware of her progress and will react accordingly. Betrayal and casualties should surround her before she gets to Meereen (if they even go there…staying in Yunkai will probably be good enough…but what will they do about the crucifixions?). Just the trade disruption alone would be enough to cause great turmoil. The passive reaction from the other cities in the books is unbelieveable. Only Dorne and Iron Islands have a vested interest here? Hopefully, TWiW will address this early on but I believe Dany will need to taste it in S4.

    All this aside, I am hoping that the showrunners begin to inject less teenage titillation with the Dany story and more true chaos, danger and destruction that comes with cultural/political upheaval (and dragons).

  127. TheOtherOther
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    All this aside, I am hoping that the showrunners begin to inject less teenage titillation with the Dany story and more true chaos, danger and destruction that comes with cultural/political upheaval (and dragons).

    I agree there. I don’t want people to misunderstand I hated the whole episode, I loved everything else, but that ending scene was horrible.

    The visuals and trying to figure out the non-sensical motivations just took me right out of it, so it didn’t have that uplifting impact, it was more, “We end a great episode and season with this crap?”

    I just felt we could have had a more powerful moment of triumph there at the end with some better execution and writing.

    I agree actually about the Riverlands being the end, the very last shot should have been the abandoned chair with Robb with the Wolf Head, ruined and burnt camp of Starks, a half-burnt Stark Flag, and a body floating down the river. End the season by showing the aftermath with no people there.

    That is all, no words, that one small visual would be powerful.

    Some of the best and most powerful scenes on this show is where very little is said. The very end was that moment for that kind of scene.

  128. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    TheOtherOther,

    I agree actually about the Riverlands being the end, the very last shot should have been the abandoned chair with Robb with the Wolf Head, ruined and burnt camp of Starks, a half-burnt Stark Flag, and a body floating down the river. End the season by showing the aftermath with no people there.

    Ok this I can agree with. I think this would have been quite effective. However, I suppose I understand D&D’s desire to end it with hope, even if they did kind of misfire with it.

    I believe LS will be a story arc throughout Season 4, but in the shadows.. I suppose we shall see.

  129. TheOtherOther
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Lycanthropist:
    TheOtherOther,

    Ok this I can agree with.I think this would have been quite effective.However, I suppose I understand D&D’s desire to end it with hope, even if they did kind of misfire with it.

    I believe LS will be a story arc throughout Season 4, but in the shadows.. I suppose we shall see.

    I can understand their sentiment, but they went pitiless and merciless in the Red Wedding, which was the key event of the season. I just felt something connected to that event needed to be focused on.

    This is the epilogue of the Starks vs. Lannisters, etc.

    They could have gone many different ways, ending with Dany is fine, but the ending shouldn’t leave the TV Viewer saying “That was it? That was the end?

    The trimuphal liberation of Yunkai would have been better with flying dragons and no speeches. I just think we didn’t need the long contrived and confusing crowd setup and distracting visiuals.

  130. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    TheOtherOther,

    Yeah…there was an awful lot of gut-wrenching pain this season. To have an “uplifting” season-ending moment that was not juxtaposed with a reminder of the overwhelming mayhem and looming chaos elsewhere didn’t quite fit (for me). Oh well, S4 should be filled with many macabre moments to satisfy our need for revenge and morbid equilibrium.

  131. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    TheOtherOther,

    I can see both sides of this S3 end-scene…both D&D and the director obviously wanted to end the season on an “uplifting” moment instead of continung down the dark path in the riverlands (which I personally find more interesting). I believe that Dany’s “winning” theme needs to be seriously tested in the coming season (providing more than ADWD scheming) in order for her character to be respected:

    1. Instead of a circus act, the dragons need to be a seriously chaotic factor in the show. They touched on this with Krasnys.Dragons are feared by the population and are naturally destructive. Every one of these Essos cities and outlying territorial camps could be turned into another Harrenhal at any moment. Tamed and trained dragons are for children. GRRM never went into great detail about their destructive behavior (except the b-bquing of a small child…but, heck, earlier they were fed the heads of sellswords…they have a taste for human blood) before R & V were absurdly chained and imprisoned, which was a bit disappointing.

    2. Dany’s followers are not in a utopia. There is respect for sudden change (the Mhysa moment) but to follow Dany is to suffer.Once she left Astapor, chaos and mutiny dominated that city, with militias and sellswords quite active. Dany did not make anything better for anyone, which is obvious in the books.

    3. Dany does not operate in a vacuum. Others are aware of her progress and will react accordingly. Betrayal and casualties should surround her before she gets to Meereen (if they even go there…staying in Yunkai will probably be good enough…but what will they do about the crucifixions?). Just the trade disruption alone would be enough to cause great turmoil. The passive reaction from the other cities in the books is unbelieveable. Only Dorne and Iron Islands have a vested interest here? Hopefully, TWiW will address this early on but I believe Dany will need to taste it in S4.

    All this aside, I am hoping that the showrunners begin to inject less teenage titillation with the Dany story and more true chaos, danger and destruction that comes with cultural/political upheaval (and dragons).

    I think this is another one of those things where it’ll all be addressed coming soon. At this point in the books, the dragons were also a sideshow. They hadn’t caused any real damage yet other than to Danys’ targets. That changes.

    And one of the points of myopia from the Westeros side of things (save for Dorne and Iron Islands), again, was that they didn’t view these creatures as a threat. That’s one of the best parts of the weak Ep 7 – when Joff (!!) of all people, recognizes the dragons as a potential problem.

  132. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Yeah…I believe the show could seriously explore Dany’s darker storyline (family and prophesy) and weaknesses with this next season, maybe even enhance the ASoS/ADwD Slaver’s Bay plotline a bit.

  133. House Mormont
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Fml from the things people say from outside the spoilers I think I’ve guessed this “Lady Stoneheart” thing

    I’m guessing Thoros and the brothers bring Catelyn back to life using the Lord of Light maybe I mean I swear I’ve heard people call her the stone lady and obviously it has something to do with Thoros and afterall she is the definition of Mhysa

    It’s a hard time being unsullied I may aswell just read the books

  134. Visennya Targaryen
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I have no idea why you’re trying to bring unnecessary anthropological arguments into this. Obviously viewers are going to ascribe their values onto the show because the show exists in a world where race matters. The point is, the last scene of “Mhysa” was racially insensitive because it depicted a white woman literally being worshipped by thousands of brown-skinned people. The “white savior” idea is racist, and as much as I love Dany, the show was wrong to depict her as one. By freeing the slaves, she didn’t make life better for anyone in the long run. I don’t know how much clearer I can possibly be. Stop trying to excuse racism with convoluted academic arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.

  135. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Within these threads lurk dark and dangerous beasts…beware oh UnSullied one!

    I found it funny that you (an UnSullied) used spoiler tags. :-)

  136. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Out of curiosity, I wonder how those who were offended for social justice reasons view Mother Teresa?

    Dany and Mother Theresa are not equal comparisons. Theresa worked her butt off for her entire long life, as a nun taking a vow of poverty and trying to help people. I’m an atheist but I can respect her work. Dany is a queen of sorts who has acquired great power in a short time, is arrogant, is pampered once she gets some wealth back, and revels in being worshiped. She has great qualities too, don’t get me wrong- but Mother Theresa, she ain’t.

  137. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    TheOtherOther,

    Don’t get me wrong I agree that the ending with Dany again, no matter if they HAD done an excellent job, seemed out of place. I would have rather they ended with Dragonstone to tell you the truth.

    But I do like the picture painted of showing the burned Stark battlefield and reinforcing the Starks are gone. I still hold to my original belief though that any indication of Catelyn’s Resurrection would damage the impact of the RW. Seeing the body is one thing, but as soon as you enter in the BwoB, perceptive viewers are going to put it together right away. Especially given the 10 months they will have to review Season 3 and ponder and discuss. I still think they made the right decision by not introducing that thread just yet.

    However, an image of the floating body would have been a nice punctuation of the tragedy that befell the Starks.

  138. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    And I agree with Ours is the Fury…

    comparing Dany to Mother Teresa is quite a stretch, and a bit irrelevant IMO.

  139. queenofthorns
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Alex of Dorne,

    For me it was the fact that ALL of the slaves were dark-skinned and there’s this one white liberator. In the books GRRM goes to great lengths to say that teh slaves are incredily diverse

  140. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    As far as the racial implications re: Dany’s final scene.

    It is nice to see that the viewer audience is perceptive and talking about these issues if/when they come up. It demonstrates a level of social responsibility that is usually absent from genre television.

    That being said, I honestly believe that there was no intent to signify Dany as some white savior. I think the reality is that they are on a tight schedule and budget, and they probably just put out a casting call for a bunch of extras in Morocco to fill that scene out.

    Now, in hindsight, they probably do wish that they had included some what you guys consider “traditionally-white” people in the crowd. But surely they just didn’t think about it in the midst of their hectic production schedule.

    I also want to give some anecdotal evidence that perhaps this isn’t as big of deal as its being made out to be.

    I live smack in the middle of the deep south, where racism still looms large, and the wounds are still tender. However, the group that I watch the show with is multi-ethnic and varied in religion, and absolutely none of us felt that this was an underhanding or representive of racism in any way. If anything most of the people watching with me felt that Dany was getting in over her head, and was not going to be a savior to these people at all, which is quite perceptive given I am the only one in the group that has read the books.

  141. Shan
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist:
    And I agree with Ours is the Fury…

    comparing Dany to Mother Teresa is quite a stretch, and a bit irrelevant IMO.

    I’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant to be a comparison between the two of them as individuals. It was a comparison between the issues that talking about each one raises. Both are people who a. did a lot of measurable good for a lot of people and b. did it in a way that is often kind of politically problematic. I’d say that’s relevant.

  142. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Shan,

    Ok maybe I was a little brash in my response..

    But Dany is a fictional character who is learning how to be a ruler in the midst of trying to conquest a entire continent of slavers..

    I don’t think she is on the same path of Mother Teresa and her humble outreach to the poor and downtrodden.

    I will concede that at least the conceptual similarities merit discussion. I apologize for being dismissive regarding that.

  143. Turncloak
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    So I hear something happened in the finale

  144. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Don’t spoil it for those in Myanmar and Outer Mongolia who haven’t seen it yet!

    It sort of has a “mother” theme, which some of us feel wasn’t explored fully. :-)

  145. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Rosie,

    No problem with your expressing your disappointment with the finale. Ours
    is the Fury made it quite clear that a fair % of people had issues with it, among
    other gripes. Just be open minded to grasp other perceptions on the subject.
    You may rule out or in some further thoughts to consider or influence your
    initial personal perceptions. Settle down and listen first.

  146. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Budget restrictions or not, as a rationale for the finale, I appreciate your comments
    on the subject. There’s much to be gained from a meeting of minds, no matter how
    lofty or low the subject, unless malice is the intent.

    BTW, I spend a few years in what you refer to as the Deep South ( aka the original
    Nation States ), very scary experiences there, whether Jewish or person of dark
    complexion.

  147. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen,

    Sorry, I regret overstating my point… it was late…… etc………. but the RACE
    concept gets thrown around very loosely here ( and other places ). I reacted
    to your comment because you happened to perpetuate a concept that has little
    scientific bearing or relevance to Game of Thrones.

    Racism simply exist because of those perpetuating the very real ignorance on the subject.
    It’s like Global Warming or Religious Fundamentalists, refusing to acknowledge
    what has been made plain for all to comprehend. The problem will never improve
    unless the majority acknowledges and acts on it to move forward. Five minutes
    listening to US attorney Morris Dees* will help improve some thoughts on the subject
    too, the impact of harm done is staggering ( & this is just the US ).

    * Southern Poverty Law Center

  148. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Racism simply exist because of those perpetuating the very real ignorance on the subject. It’s like Global Warming or Religious Fundamentalists, refusing to acknowledge
    what has been made plain for all to comprehend. The problem will never improve
    unless the majority acknowledges and acts on it to move forward.

    Thank you for stating a real truth that is sometimes hard to accept. The reality is that a lot of times “white-people” (a term that doesn’t help much in of itself) often raise the alarm about “racist” issues. I suppose this is a result of white guilt or whatever, but honestly none of my POC friends even thought about that scene as racist.

    The reality is that they experience TRUE racism every day, so to make a stink about a 2 minute scene in a fantasy story set in a fictional world seems ludicrous. I happen to agree.

    As I said, it is nice to see that the fanbase is intelligent and conscientious enough to discuss these issues, but one has to be careful not to create racial tensions by simply starting an uproar about something that in all likelihood, had no racial implications at all. The danger is that one can come off as racist by simply trying to call out something is racist.

    The white-guilt as well as reverse racism are main proponents in preventing us as a whole to start moving forward and moving on.

  149. Satsuma
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    I do not think the producers meant for the final scene to have “White Savior” implications, BUT while I do not find their choices malicious, I DO find them stupid. Didn’t anyone screening this realize that it WOULD be seen as racially insensitive? Many “mainstream” websites outside the fandom, have given their thumbs down to this scene. Here’s a link to a list of quotes about it:

    http://fatpinkcast.tumblr.com/post/52687194306/critics-reactions-to-the-final-season-3-scene-in

    I hope this isn’t too political, but one of the quotes that summed it up for me was: “It’s like George W. Bush’s secret fantasy of how he thought the invasion of Iraq would go for him.”
    And since GRRM himself is politically aware and is a staunch Democrat, I am sure the goings-on in Iraq DID influence his writing of Dany’s story arc. Since in Meereen, her efforts DO start to backfire, the freed slaves DO start dying from plague and starvation, she finds out Astapor became a total hellhole after she left and wound up re-instating slavery including the “farming” of Unsullied, etc.

    Anyway, even if you leave the racial politics out of it, the whole scene came across more as a staged, scripted political rally, than a true spontaneous outflow of love and appreciation for Dany. That took away from the impact, because I felt like I was watching political propaganda of the type you could see as a TV commercial during election season, or perhaps playing at a National Convention for a political party. And while Dany doesn’t actually “crowd-surf” for more than a second, I started laughing at that one brief scene and thinking “LOL, is this a rock concert now?” Or maybe one of those standard “get a bunch of extras/chorus singers out on stage to close out a musical” numbers.

    I totally understand how D+D wanted the season to end on a high note, but basically, it felt like I could SEE their puppet strings all over this final scene, and that doesn’t make for good TV, IMHO. I’d have much preferred revealing Lady Stoneheart to provide a spark of hope for the Stark storyline, to this. And as for the “well in the books she isn’t revealed at this point” argument, the showrunners already totally changed the timing of the Theon reveal, in the books we don’t find out about his torture until ADWD. I actually did not mind their decision to show what happens chronologically instead of resorting to flashbacks (though I do think they spent a bit too much time on this storyline). So if we go by that, then revealing LS 3 days after the RW, which is when she is revived chronologically, and I’m sure GS meant for the 3 days to mirror how long Jesus was “dead”, would NOT have been an issue.

  150. Visennya Targaryen
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    I’m not white and I found that scene racially insensitive.

    I think it’s worth mentioning that millions of people watch Game of Thrones and the show undeniably portrayed white savior-ism in a positive light. It doesn’t matter if the depiction was fictional. Millions of people saw it, and it was a scene that glorified Dany’s actions.

    PS. It’s not racist to point out racism.

  151. Carlos
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    We do not Hodor:
    I am sick unto death of people dumping on season 3, episode 10.Get over yourselves.Read the books.They ended well and if you needed LS to make you orgasm, well, sad for you and your “microwave” generation mentality.That scene belongs in season 4 along with all the other great scenes we are going to get.I hate the House of the Undying, but I am not going to waste time pissing and moaning about it.This is a great show and I predict season 4 will be the BEST season.I’ll keep reading for the casting rumors, but GODS BE GOOD, I AM SICK OF THE WHINING ON THIS SITE OTHERWISE.If it weren’t for Oz and his unsullied, I would have punched out long ago.

    Oh, and for WiC, TOLD YOU SO!(Check it, called the season finale in the episode title post!)

    Completely agree, I am tired of people complaining about LS, she was annoying in life, she is even worst dead, dont even care if she is in next season or not.

  152. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen,

    Be careful. Don’t misconstrue my words.

    It is imperative that we call out racism when it exists.

    But do you honestly believe in your heart that it was the shows intention or agenda to make a statement about white people saving colored people?

    Did the show make a mistake and not include white extras? Maybe.
    But does this mean that Game of Thrones is now articulating a White Savior agenda? I highly doubt it.

    They are telling GRRMs story and at this point in the books, Dany was raised up to a deity-like level. I think the problem is that they used all Moroccans to visually convey this image and as a result set off some sensitivity bells. I get that.

    My point is, that if we over indulge this observation, than reality gets distorted, and all of a sudden GRRM and D&D are racists and they get these unfair and untrue stigmas attached to them. They simply made an efficient production decision, which YES, could be construed as a racially insensitive choice. But the reality is, that its a television show that is trying to stay true to its source material.

    I just think there are far more serious injustices that are happening in our real world that demand this kind of attention, and it is aggravating to see so much hype and concern about a fictional world, and very little attention paid to the real life issues happening in our country.

  153. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    I ‘ve given much thought to the ” guilt ” assumption, I believe it’s a way to deflect or
    deny the pain it’s really caused, sometimes at the hand of the person originating the
    premise. Racism is learned behaviour that’s perpetuated in any population.
    The ” I regard myself as superior but enjoy the privilege ” is really what’s a stake,
    for the most part. The guilt vibe is a double bind. Author Tim Wise asserts an
    interesting perspective on that as well.

    South African author Athol Fugard’s play ” Master Harold and the Boys ” really opened
    my eyes to that aspect, when I sought enlightenment on the subject.

  154. Visenya
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Please don’t presume to dictate what someone can and cannot find racially insensitive.

    I never said the producers or GRRM were intentionally malicious or racist. it’s also important to keep in mind that the slaves Dany freed in the books were of many skin tones and not just brown.

    I have no idea why you’d assume that people who care about the depiction of race in television don’t care about racial issues in the “real world.” By the way, things that are shown on tv are part of the real world.

  155. Josh
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Jenny of Oldstones:

    Quote Reply
    Jenny of Oldstones
    Posted June 11, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    mariamb:
    Shae: What will eventually drive her into Tywin’s bed? I’ve come to really enjoy this character in the show and am interested in her motivations going forward.

    I think she’ll get jealous of Sansa and angry with Tyrion, probably further inflamed by some fight before the PW and that’s why she betrays him. Her ending in bed with Tywin though, couldn’t say, but we don’t really get an explanation in aSoS either, other than jewels and money. That isn’t really like show-Shae though. Perhaps revenge?

    Or maybe she is trying to barter for Tyrion’s freedom? Maybe we won’t see her betray Tyrion at the trial?

    My fear is that it will all get cut and Shae will just be sent away and Tyrion will go looking for her instead of his “wife”(who’s name I’m blanking on)….I can’t help but fear the show is afraid to have Tyrion do something so murky….He’s so much more noble and good on the show than he is in the books.

  156. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Well here’s the thing. I was not born in raised in the south. I moved around a lot growing up, but I have spent the last 20 years in Mississippi.

    I had learned about racism prior to moving to MS. We learned about all the civil rights movements and all that. And yes, I was aware of the racial profiling that happens across the country.

    But I had NO idea how bad it still is in the South until I moved here. Its racism from ALL sides. I have since moved to a town that is very progressive for being in the middle of southern MS, so I have actually enjoyed a small amount of relief from the prevailing mentality, but by no means does it not exist.

    I am not saying that racism isn’t serious in other parts of the country, but the deep-rooted ties to old ways of thinking are so strong and accepted here.

    I mean there are times when I am talking or meeting people who automatically assume I am a racist, because they start telling racist jokes or making slurs under the impression that I am just going to agree and go along with them. Its just that accepted around here.

    The reverse racism is equally as prevalent.

    I guess my point is that racism exists so strongly and so in your face here, that “implied racism” on a television show is a bit of a joke. I certainly don’t want to dismiss any real feelings that were caused by the end of this episode, but I just can’t bring myself to agree that this scene was anything short of a production misstep.

  157. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Visenya,

    And to be clear. I really don’t want to seem insensitive your feelings and legitimate concerns. I in no way can presume anything about anyone’s personal sensitivities. I also want to apologize for making any blanket statements.

    When I get in debate mode, I tend to use broad strokes, but I am really just talking about these issues in regard to this one scene in question. I know that television provides many fair and relevant approaches to the race issue. I am not denying that at all. What I am saying, is that in THIS particular instance, I feel like some of the racial implications are being blown a bit out of proportion.

    I apologize for making assumptions about you or anyone else for that matter, and just know that I am only speaking my opinion which is based on my personal experience.

  158. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    My fear is that it will all get cut and Shae will just be sent away and Tyrion will go looking for her instead of his “wife”(who’s name I’m blanking on)….

    I think this may very well be why they replace Tysha w/Shae, because no one will remember who T is.

  159. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist,

    Group hug, anyone? I also have some tasty locust treats for everyone to enjoy. Mr. Belwas will show you to your quarters.

  160. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Haha definitely. Certainly not trying to incite any hard feelings. We can put this conversation to rest if need be. :)

  161. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I honestly think that they will have Shae killed by Tywin and then Tyrion kills him. I dunno could be wrong, cuz I just don’t get that scene with her and Varys any other way.

  162. A Storm of S-Words
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    It’s interesting that even among professional reviewers, some loved everything but scenes A and B and others loved everything but scenes C and D and they all seem to think their reasons are perfectly obvious. D&D must be doing something right.

    With that, I’ll say what I liked or didn’t like about some scenes, for reasons that are of course perfectly obvious!
    - Season finale “Mhysa” scene – D&D set the bar too damned high with the season 1 and 2 endings. The season 3 ending wasn’t bad by any normal standards.
    - Hound and Arya – I couldn’t possibly improve on it. I’m lusting for more tag team fight scenes. Eager to hear about Nymeria.
    - Another character – LS – I wasn’t really into this character in the books, but even so, you don’t want to undo such a tragic death before it’s barely had time to sink in.
    - Theon – Part of the problem is that we’re so starved for more show minutes (we get maybe 550/year) that unimportant scenes are seen as wasting valuable show time. I agree that the mystery of who Ramsey was was too obvious and lasted too long, and I’d rather see half the Theon time put to other uses. I’m sure Theon would agree. But it was well-acted, well-staged, and reasonably realistic, so who’s to complain.
    - Bran, Jojen, Meera - TV Jojen and Meera aren’t as interesting as book Jojen and Meera. In the books Jojen was more of a mystic and never panicked about anything, let alone hodoring. They had special hunting and nature skills that aren’t on display in the show (TV Meera isn’t even as good at skinning a rabbit as Osha!). I preferred it when warging into a human was an abomination, not a special skill. But there was nothing unpleasant about their characters and they had some good moments. Unsullied won’t even know what they’re missing.
    - Jon, Bran and Sam confluence – I like it when characters all meet up (whether they know it or not). I was sad in the book that Sam was sworn to secrecy about Bran, which doesn’t seem to be the case in the show (thus far), so that’s an improvement for me.
    - Shae as Sansa’s handmaiden – Really nice change from the books. It’s nice for Sansa to have a supporter, and interesting to see such a bizarre love triangle. I hope she isn’t killed off.
    - Jon and Ygritte – Well done, D&D.
    - Dany – I’ve enjoyed all the changes. I do wish we could’ve seen more of what happened off-screen when they took Yunkai, after the fight at the rear gate they showed, before Jorah showed up bloody at Dany’s tent. But that’s only because they do fight scenes so well.
    - Margaery – Loved every scene she was in. Dormer really rose to the challenge.

    I know I’m guilty of having certain expectations from reading the books, expectations that aren’t always met. But the unsullied love what they’re seeing so who am I to complain? And some things really are improvements on the book. Given the time and money constraints of the show, D&D are doing a fantastic job.

  163. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Lycanthropist: GreatJon

    Somehow I don’t see it. I think that Varys/Shae scene was meant as a good bit of foreshadowing. And in ADwD, Tyrion isn’t “looking” for anyone, not in the literal sense, anyway. This show has allowed itself to take what was the most hated character, or one of them, in Jaime (ok, nobody will ever top Joffrey, or the Mountain, or Ramsey, or Walder Frey, jeez, this show has a lot of assholes)…and turn him into something so rich and complex, just as the book did.

    They’ve also taken an adorable little girl and turned her into a murderer, and a seemingly unfeeling, stone-cold murderer.

    So while Peter Dinklage is the star of this here thing, I don’t see them wimping out. It’s too important for how he’s viewed.

  164. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany,

    I don’t quite follow your comment…was it meant for me? I thought that the scene between Varys and Shae served as a warning for Shae, which she discarded. She might have a game to play as well but in the end, Tyrion will be crushed by her actions (since they align with his horrible first marriage experience) and do her in before papa….then he will go nuts and search the far east for his destiny. Maybe along the way, he will eventually discover “where the whores go”.

  165. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    I truly hope they don’t cut Shae’s betrayal. I agree that they could pull it off. I was just saying that comments such as that (who was Tyrion’s wife?), make me concerned that they won’t commit to it, because they are afraid their audience won’t remember her importance.

    But they didn’t chicken out with the RW, so I am sure my fears are unfounded. ;)

  166. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Visennya Targaryen,

    Did you ever stop to think that all the extra’s that played the slaves were drawn from the region they were filmed in and they couldn’t afford to fly in a bunch of token pale people. GEESH!!

  167. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany:
    Hodor’s Bastard,


    Someone else said we’ll see her betray him out of jealousy and resentment rather than greed, given she’s a more complex character. That seems like it would work.

  168. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    I’ve enjoyed on-screen Shae, and to a lesser degree, Ygritte. I truly
    hope that although a complex character , her role doesn’t omit the betrayal.
    I almost hate to see her leave, but she must at some point. I wonder when
    Tywin meets his end ? That’s another persona that I’ll miss big time ):
    .
    Time moves too swiftly in the ASOIAF world. What’s a Nerdist to do except
    work and hike a mountain or two ?

  169. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Lycanthropist,

    Group hug, anyone? I also have some tasty locusttreats for everyone to enjoy. Mr. Belwas will show you to your quarters.

    Only if these treats consists of Spicy Honey Locust, served in Strong Belwas’s
    favourite bowl (: Do you have a Turkey Fryer ?

  170. sunspear
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Handmaiden of Dany:
    Visennya Targaryen,

    Did you ever stop to think that all the extra’s that played the slaves were drawn from the region they were filmed in and they couldn’t afford to fly in a bunch of token pale people. GEESH!!

    I’m going to have to side with you on this. D&D clearly didn’t cause any ‘white savior’ overtone and they shouldn’t have to kowtow to the most sensitive people when the vast majority didn’t have any problem with that scene.

  171. sunspear
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Or they could have Cersei or Tywin threaten to kill her. Any of these ways would work well enough for the show.

    I don’t know why people think they won’t have Tyrion kill Shae. If they didn’t chicken out on showing GreyRobb, they won’t chicken out on Tyrion killing her.

  172. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Tyrion needs his rage and family disillusion to build in S4. Shae will help send him over the edge and he will then become a kinslayer.

    But what shall Varys do with his “Wizard in a Box”? Such a cliffhanger…!

  173. Satsuma
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    I actually think it’s a good thing that this conversation is taking place, because we are talking about a fictional scene, people seem much more comfortable admitting how they really feel, even if their opinion is not “politically correct”. Unfortunately, dialogue on race, as well as other issues like sexism, homophobia, etc., tends to very polarized, and it often seems that social-justice bloggers use a specific type of language that they use to highlight how Socially Aware, En-Lightened, and Non-Bigoted We Are compared to people who don’t use that lingo.

    For example, the “POC” abbreviation that is all over the blogosphere, yet I’ve met very few actual “People of Color” who call themselves that. (Which would include myself, I am East Asian in ancestry, but just don’t walk around thinking “I’m a Person of Color! I’m a Person of Color!”) There are other terms like referring to non-transgenders as “Cis”, talking about “white privilege”, “internalized –ism” (whether the -ism is racism, sexism, classism, ableism, whatever), and all sorts of other terms which send the message, “We are the Experts On Social Justice Issues, and if you have no idea what the meanings are of the words we use on a daily basis, go away. You’re not smart and enlightened enough to have a place in the discussion.” I find this attitude to be just as discriminatory as the ones they condemn so self-righteously.

    All that being said, I still DID find the scene to be disturbing, and something I’d expect in a piece of political propaganda, not part of a series that is based on books that deliberately subvert the kind of tropes used in propaganda pieces. Unlike the books, I can definitely tell that D+D have and play favorites with the characters. Dany and Tyrion are both portrayed in a much “whiter” way (in terms of morality/ethics) than the books. They also seemed to be trying to portray Robb’s decisions, especially regarding his marriage, in a much better light than in the book. (Although, ironically, I think he wound up coming off in a WORSE light!)

    Many fans think Talisa made more sense as a reason for Robb breaking his vows. But the point of that story arc in the books was NOT “Robb meets a really hot babe who makes him act irrationally, because what guy wouldn’t, we can’t blame him!” It was “Robb makes an impulsive, immature decision when he is extremely vulnerable to poor decision-making, both physically, due to injury and fever, and emotionally, because he just found out his best friend betrayed him and killed his brothers.” Not to mention feeling really guilty, because if he hadn’t trusted Theon AND ignored his mother’s advice, the sacking of Winterfell wouldn’t have happened. And then he ironically makes yet another decision that his mother would not have approved of.

    Anyway, I got the feeling that the show just didn’t want to portray Robb as weak in any way (even though the actor himself understood that Robb is “pretending to be a man” most of the time), and wound up portraying him as stupid and selfish, instead.

  174. sunspear
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    I’m going to quote an IMDB post that sums up my feelings on this ‘white savior’ topic:

    “If the show had made Yunkai’s slaves white, I’m sure you would have blamed the show of whitewashing the desert scenery and so denying PoC extras their chance. And BTW, what would have been the logistics of that? Flying a hundred white extras to Morocco for one scene?”

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/board/nest/215670156?p=3

  175. Josla
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Reverse Nielsen:
    Visennya Targaryen,

    How should they have handled it? Seriously – where are you going to find a hundred white extras in Morocco? Even more difficult if you want slaves from each ethnicity in existence.

    I’m amazed at how much some people like to complain and turn everything into racism, even where there’s none. Just because the slaves are all poc and Dany is blonde? Seriously? I don’t see it. I remember the same people complaining because there weren’t enough people of color in the show. I have olive skin myself. I suppose I shall be offended. Pff

  176. WildSeed
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    WildSeed,

    Tyrion needs his rage and family disillusion to build in S4. Shae will help send him over the edge and he will then become a kinslayer.

    But what shall Varys do with his “Wizard in a Box”? Such a cliffhanger…!

    Yes, true. What will that reveal lead to in later episodes, if at all (:

  177. Josla
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    I’m going to quote an IMDB post that sums up my feelings on this ‘white savior’ topic:

    “If the show had made Yunkai’s slaves white, I’m sure you would have blamed the show of whitewashing the desert scenery and so denying PoC extras their chance. And BTW, what would have been the logistics of that? Flying a hundred white extras to Morocco for one scene?”

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/board/nest/215670156?p=3

    Oh thank you! I should have read your comment first because I basically repeated what you posted lol

  178. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Or they could have Cersei or Tywin threaten to kill her. Any of these ways would work well enough for the show.


    I don’t know why people think they won’t have Tyrion kill Shae. If they didn’t chicken out on showing GreyRobb, they won’t chicken out on Tyrion killing her.

    Well said.

    In 3 seasons we’ve seen, or had told to us:

    –The main fucking character gets killed, head chopped off.

    –Incest. Lots of incest.

    –A crazy black magic witch kills our heroine’s lover.

    –An 8-foot-tall psychopath slices the head off a goddamned horse.

    –They kill off the avenging son, and his mom. Cutting her throat, with a Kill Bill style blood spray. After she kills another man’s wife, by the way.

    –They parade around a dead man’s body with a wolf head on top of it.

    –A dick in a box. (!!)

    And we’re supposed to believe, that somehow, they’re going to chicken out of Tyrion killing Shae because hope freedom Peter Dinklage? Bullshit.

  179. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    It’s weird, because in a series called “A Song of Ice & Fire”, you’d think the girl with the dragons would be the central character to the story. But the TV show is really illustrating what a sideshow Dany is. Her story really drops off after the first book, and has similarly been given very little attention post-Drogo on HBO. After her dragons hatch, she just kind of wanders around, conquering inconsequential slaver cities, getting tied into a “Meereenese Knot” (as GRRM called it), while the real story is going on far away over in Westeros. Her dragons get bigger, and she gains a small measure of power, but that’s about it. So, just wait till she gets to Meereen. Her fanboys/fangirls will cry bloody murder. D&D will be accused of everything from neglect, to outright subversion.

  180. Satsuma
    Posted June 12, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    This is a reply to greatjon’s posts about Shae in S4:

    I don’t think the show will shy away from Tyrion killing Shae. I actually think that they are going for the shock value of it, by making the show fan (and even the book fan) think “Oh Shae loves Tyrion and would never betray him”, almost until the exact moment we see her march up to the witness stand and do so. And even then, have Tyrion seem to handle her betrayal well, almost until the moment he finds her in Tywin’s bed. Besides, even in the books, doesn’t Tyrion only snap AFTER she mockingly calls him “my giant of a Lannister”?

    Anyway, this would be a similar approach to their show version of the RW, where they purposefully played up how happy everyone is, complete with cute Robb-Talisa-unborn baby moments, until the doors close and Walder Frey starts the real party from his POV. (Very different from the book version, where it’s pretty obvious, starting from Grey Wind’s alarm, to the crying Roslin, bad food, and worse music, and general atmosphere, that there’s something shifty about the wedding, way before the knives come out and the crossbow bolts start flying. Though maybe that’s because it’s from Catelyn’s POV, and if we got Robb’s POV he’d be almost as oblivious as he was in the show.)

  181. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:29 am | Permalink

    sunspear: I’m going to have to side with you on this. D&D clearly didn’t cause any ‘white savior’ overtone and they shouldn’t have to kowtow to the most sensitive people when the vast majority didn’t have any problem with that scene.

    “The most sensitive people on the internet” seems to include just about every reviewer and a huge chunk of the commenters here, though. I’m not sure if people who didn’t see racist undertones have a technical majority, but I doubt they have a two-thirds majority. So, it seems like the overtones are there, even if you don’t see them.

    I think what you meant to say (possibly) is that D&D didn’t *mean* to create white savior overtones — that they weren’t doing it on purpose. No doubt that’s true.

    Can I direct you, though, to Hershele Ostropoler’s fantastic rant on John Scalzi’s blog?

    “I you step on my foot, you need to get off my foot. If you didn’t mean to step on my foot, you need to get off my foot. If you didn’t realize you were stepping on my foot, you need to get off my foot.”

    D&D stepped on our foot. We’re saying “ow.” It’s not a condemnation of them as people. It’s pointing out that they stepped on our foot, in case they didn’t realize, so that they can get off it. And honestly, I think you’re taking that a little too personally on their behalf.

  182. Chris
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    Yara/Asha: Maybe sending her off to chase the Boltons is a way of getting her out of the way for Euron to step in and, er, assist Balon downstairs. It’s probably too early to put her in a place where she can be captured. And, yeah, with Robb gone I suspect they’ll somewhat build her up as a (flawed, sure) heroic figure.

    Varys & Shae & Tyrion & Tywin Isn’t it obvious? Her thinking that Tyrion is trying to get rid of her will get her to ‘betray’ him and seek other oppurtunities. Still up in the air whether she’ll be killed by Tyrion or if she’ll go ‘wherever whores go’.

  183. NotALadyButAWolf
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I cried in the “Mhysa” scene. Because it was so beautiful when they lifted her up and she smiled back at them. I personally didn’t think about skin colors. The Yunkai people have dark skin because the land is mostly desert and therefore the sun is shining all the time, so they have to have more pigment in their skin. I think Daenerys was depicted as a saint, like Mother Mary(she wore blue), because that’s how the people who have been slaves all their life see their rescuer. Why some people just get so easily but hurt?
    They didn’t whine about the scene in The Rains Of Castamere, where Talisa was brutally stabbed in the belly several times… I mean… wasn’t that a little bit too much??? I got the feeling that they tried to make the Red Wedding scene just as epic as in books, by using unnecessary violence. They failed, but that’s just my opinion.

  184. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Shan: step on my foot, you need to get off my foot. If you didn’t mean to step on my foot, you need to get off my foot. If you didn’t realize you were stepping on my foot, you need to get off my foot.”

    D&D stepped on our foot.

    No, that analogy does not work. Stepping on your foot causes physical pain. This is something with some matter of interpretation. It’s not a direct attack on anyone in particular. There’s degrees of gray here.

  185. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    NotALadyButAWolf: They didn’t whine about the scene in The Rains Of Castamere, where Talisa was brutally stabbed in the belly several times… I mean… wasn’t that a little bit too much???

    Many people complained about Talisa’s murder scene, so your logic doesn’t follow.

  186. A Storm of S-Words
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Not to keep this thread going on forever, but Sibel Kekilli provides more insight into Shae’s thinking in this interview:
    http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2013/05/interview-sibel-kekilli-game-of-thrones
    Sibel says some things that aren’t necessarily obvious to viewers. Don’t read it if you don’t want to hear any more about her character than what’s obvious on the screen, but otherwise read her answers to the last 5 questions where she says what Tyrion values.
    I’m still in the “hope she doesn’t betray Tyrion” camp. In the book she never loved Tyrion so the betrayal was logical. Here she loves him. The gold chains might be just D&D’s way of teasing us.
    It would be interesting if Tyrion and Shae finally clue Sansa into what’s going on.
    It would be REALLY interesting if if Shae stays with Sansa when she leaves with LF.

  187. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: No, that analogy does not work. Stepping on your foot causes physical pain. This is something with some matter of interpretation. It’s not a direct attack on anyone in particular. There’s degrees of gray here.

    The original metaphor was about sexist harassment, which is also a matter of interpretation. And also upsetting. And also really annoying when people try to tell you that you’re imagining it.

  188. Gem
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Ours is the Fury: Or possibly they are genuinely upset by the scene, and they don’t just “love to whine” simply because they don’t agree with you. Not everyone interprets things the same way you do, but their opinions are still valid. You were not offended but there was a wide range of reactions to that scene. And it was not only the social justice-oriented viewers who felt that way, but many viewers and a lot of the critics.

    Even if you ignore the white savior critique, it was still a pretty boring season-finisher. There was no tension, no catharsis. I don’t think anyone really doubted that the slaves would be glad to be freed, and the crowd-surfing was laughable, them carrying her on their shoulders like she QBed the Superbowl. It was just…oh that’s nice for Dany, I guess.

    thank you very much for this comment. i’ve come to avoid this comments on this site precisely because of the dismissive and bizarrely angry reactions to ANY thoughtful critique of racism and misogyny in this show, or their portrayals of catelyn and sansa, etc. i got curious enough to come here and CTRL+F ‘savior’ and it was really a nice surprise to see a contributor to this site drawing a line.

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