Speculating on season 4
By Winter Is Coming on in Speculation.

A Storm of SwordsWith season 3 now over (man, it sucks to have to say that), it’s time to turn our focus to season 4. We know that season 4 will encompass the second half of A Storm of Swords. But how exactly will the writers adapt it? Which events and characters will be included, which will be cut and which will be condensed? And might they take material from the later books, A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, and include it in season 4 as well? These two articles look to answer those questions and will provide a good jumping off point for further discussion and speculation.

First up, this article from Jennifer Vineyard over at Vulture speculates what the main storylines of season 4 will be, with a little help from me and some other prominent members of the Game of Thrones fan community. While this story contains spoilers, they are of the “episode synopsis” variety, not a spelling out of every major plot point.

This post by Charlie Jane Anders of io9 on the other-hand is a spoiler-fest. Only read it if you’ve read ALL of the Ice & Fire books. It includes some comprehensive speculation on not just the storylines for season 4 but future seasons as well. Anders recruits Elio Garcia of Westeros.org and Adam Whitehead of The Wertzone for assistance in mapping everything out.

Winter Is Coming: My own thinking is that season 4 will contain almost exclusively A Storm of Swords material. There are still a lot of major events that take place in the second half of that novel, especially in the locales of King’s Landing and the Wall. I think focusing season 4 around those two strong narrative arcs, and sprinkling in some of the other smaller arcs, would be the best way to handle it. Cramming more characters and more storylines and more locations from later books into the next season would cause things to become too muddled. There is plenty of time to tell those stories in later seasons. Let’s not rush things too much!

What does everyone else think? How do you think season 4 will play out? What will be the main storylines and where will they end each? And do you think we will see events from later books next season? Feel free to speculate away in the comments below.

IMPORTANT SPOILER NOTE: Since this discussion will be nothing but plot points from future books, we are going to lift our usual policy of covering all spoilers. Otherwise the comment section will look like a redacted CIA document. Book readers, feel free to discuss later events out in the open here and Unsullied, stay away!


442 Comments

  1. King in the North
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    Hodor!

    The North Remembers!

  2. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Mhysa

  3. Alice
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Mhysa !

  4. TheLightningLord
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    I’m interested to see what they have in store for Bran in Season 4. They’ve finished his ASoS arc already.

  5. Vikestad
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Oh, with Jaime arriving early we’ll get more scenes with him and Tyrion probably. They only had two scenes together in the books right?

  6. Lycanthropist
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    TheLightningLord,

    I figure they will continue to slow play his journey. He will probably be in 5-6 episodes and most of his arc will probably involve either Coldhands, or diving into Westerosi History via his dreams and convos with the Reeds.

    I doubt he gets to the tree this season.

  7. Yosde
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    I think they will definitely introduce some of the Martel family members specially those coming to the wedding. Also we have to remember that cat comes back so they might either start with that (I know it happens at the end of the book but it would be cool if they started with that to kinda of jump start the season). I think we can expect the wedding at around episode 6 or 7 and we can anticipate that we’ll see Sansa and little finger arriving at her aunts this season too, I feel they will skip over all that chapter of Sansa staying in little fingers island. Unless of course they decide to show it to kinda of give the tv viewers how little finger came up from the bottom. I think the season is clearly going to end with the escape of Tyrion and the death of Tywin.

  8. GeekFurious
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    While I think a lot of season 4 will be the rest of ASOS, I don’t see how they can avoid dipping into the later books for some of the material. There is no way we won’t see way too much of Dany being boring.

  9. Joan Català
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    I’d stick with the ASOS material that’s left, and add only the Ironborn.

    End the Wall Stroyline with Jon elected.
    End the KL storyline with Tyrion killing Tywin.
    End Mereen where it ends in the book (I don’t really remember). Perhaps add a bit from ADWD to fill up.
    As for Arya I would have her in the ship to Braavos mid-season, and arrives to the House of White and Black in the finale, or push her departure til the later episodes and postpone her arrival til S5.
    Bran: Complicated. Only natural point to end would be to meet Bloodraven, but it may be a bit early.
    Sansa: Arrives at the Eryie in the last couple of episodes, then in the finale LF murders Lysa.
    Brienne: Leaves KL after PW, meets Lady Stoneheart in the finale?
    Ironborn (if included): Balon’s death early on, mid-season would have the Kingsmoot, for the finale Euron sends Victarion to Slaver’s Bay.
    Boltons/Theon: I think they may push Theon’s storyline forward and see, at least, how he delievers Moat Cailin to Ramsay.

  10. Skywarpgold
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    I think they’ve also managed to invent a rather large addition to the Greyjoy story line, with Asha/Yara vowing to go rescue Theon. It seems to me that they could fill a lot of time with this, and end it with her returning to the Iron Islands either because she was beaten back, or because of Balon’s death.

  11. mead
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    D and D said they want a certain battle to be bigger than Blackwater. (!)

  12. Skywarpgold
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Joan Català,

    I think they’ve managed to delay the Greyjoy bit for a while now, with Asha going to attack the Dreadfort. I wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t see the Kingsmoot until S5.

  13. TastesLikeTheSea
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    They need to hire the choreographer that did the Achilles vs Hector fight in Troy for The mountain vs red viper,

  14. Silverstormm
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    I’m curious whether they’ll have Arya wandering around the countryside with the Hound all season & get her on the ship to Braavos in Ep10 or start that storyline earlier?
    Also as Theons’ storyline was severely stretched across alot of S3 episodes I’m assuming he’s going to be fairly prominent again in S4, as someone upthread has said, perhaps the whole Yara rescue attempt and/or showing Moat Cailin being handed over?
    I hope they spice up Danys’ adventures in Essos much more as from here on it drags quite a bit.
    No doubt some Martells’ will be arriving in S4, the Red Viper def but which others?
    Will Lancel & Kevan return next season?

  15. Joan Català
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Skywarpgold,

    I think that Asha/Yara going to the Dreadfort is just a feint from the writers. My bet is that she’ll get word that Balon has died way before she gets even close to the Dreadfort. Then they can introduce the Kingsmoot.

  16. mead
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if we’ll get to see Arya in Braavos relatively early. I hope she gets her shift on.

  17. ANiceChianti
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Calling it now… PW in Episode 4.

  18. brightroar
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    agree 100% that fight is awesome and vaguely similar with spears being a main weapon. i can hardly wait for the fight hoping D&D do it better than they did blackwater which is incredible in the books but only impressive in the show for special effects reasoning.

  19. Zack
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    lol guys, stop with the redacted text here. A distraction in this particular thread.

  20. superdeluxe
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Why are their spoiler tags in here?

    Anyways.

    Lady Stoneheart HAS to be introduced in the first episode, and perhaps by the last episode she will hang someone.

  21. lonas
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Joan Català,

    Hei! thanks for caring but hurra this is a spoiler free zone!

    Hope we get to see two battles at the wall and Jon election with possible Sam departure to south, thought im afraid this could be rushed.

    Im curious of how will Dany exile Mormont and if it will be Barristan who will do it. There was a slight of a hint on ep 9 this season when Mormont told Selmy to do whatever he needed to protect her..either way her story could end with Drogon attacking a kid giving us the idea that she is not so much in control of her dragons..

    Oberyn to fight the Mountain two eps after Jofreys death leaving time for the battle on the wall and Tywin death on ep 10.

    Arya hasnt much to do but chill with the Hound getting needle back and we could see Bravos
    by the end.

    Will Jamie see Sansa?? suspense suspense

  22. D'Arcy
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Bran – I’d expect that they will still include Coldhands, and that his introduction will serve as a sort of “plot” point for him most of the season. This allows the show to stall a bit before getting to Bloodraven. Unsure on whether or not they’ll reach the cave by the finale.

    Jon – Early plot points will involve his “betrayal” of the Night’s Watch and conflicts with Janos Slynt. Later, sent to Mance Rayder, then the big battle, Stannis, and him being elected Lord Commander. There should be some mentions of Val and her baby, and king’s blood.

    Theon – Possible plot involving Ramsay trying to hunting down Rickon. Otherwise, this will likely be an uneventful season for him. The “Fake Arya” plot could be pulled early, as Sansa’s disappearance is also quite early in the season. This would mean returning to Winterfell by the end of Season 4.

    Ironborn – I expect Balon’s death quite early, and Asha’s attempts to save Theon will be unsuccessful. I hope for an introduction to Victarion, Euron, and Aeron, but this could be pushed into Season 5, especially with the cast bloats from ->

    King’s Landing – Introduction of Oberyn Martell and Mace Tyrell. Will host the Purple Wedding in early season. Tyrion’s trial, then in the dungeons, and his trial by combat. Episode 8 or 9 will be The Mountain vs. The Red Viper, then Episode 9 or 10 is his escape, and Shae and Tywin’s deaths.

    Brienne – By the end of the season expect her to be heading out in search of Sansa, but I figure this season will be light for her. I expect she will be arrested for her safety.

    Jaime, Cersei, Tywin – Jaime’s discontent with Tywin and Cersei will most likely be a large plot point for the show and used very effectively to get these three actors great lines and good screen time.

    Sansa – With her early season escape from King’s Landing, expect the moon-door scene with Littlefinger and Lysa to close one of the final episodes of the season, possibly Episode 8 or 9.

    Arya & The Hound – Likely to be some adventures until Arya gets on a boat to Braavos.

    Daenerys – This season should be about her taking Meereen. One city won’t be much, but they need to stretch her storyline a bit to end up matching with Tyrion arriving in Meereen. Jorah’s betrayal will be interesting, and should likely serve as a decent way to keep her storyline interesting.

    Odds and ends:

    Blackfish – We should see a few scenes with him holding Riverrun.

    Stannis/Davos/Melisandre – I’d expect some early scenes depicting their travels North, but really, Stannis & Melisandre only come into play at the end of the season. Davos may be sent to White Harbour early, and we may even see some ADWD scenes from him.

    Samwell – I wouldn’t expect a huge amount here, though by the end of the season he should be heading south with Aemon, Gilly, and Mance Rayder’s son.

    Rickon & Osha – Could be featured. Ramsay’s storyline could intertwine with theirs, but the show has already put some emphasis on Asha’s possible rescue of Theon, which may be featured more prominently instead.

    Lady Stoneheart – I’m unsure if they’ll use this as the final scene but it would work well. I still wish they’d show her revival. I feel like the shot of her eyes opening would be a huge opportunity in terms of cinematography.

    That’s about it! Sounds like a jam-packed season. Very excited.

  23. brightroar
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    i’ll be very disappointed if i dont get euron and victarion. i dont want them to combine that character i just dont see it working they are complete opposites.

  24. JP Dayne
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    this would be dumb because if they keep it exclusevily to ASOS, arya and stannis won’t have much to do this season

    season 3 itself already had parts of AFFC if I’m not mistaken

    they won’t show dorne, that’s for sure

    and Jaime at the purple wedding… this rustles my jimmies to the orbit of the red comet

  25. Tessa_Leonie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    I’m guessing Gendry doesn’t fall out of the boat and makes it to KL. Then he can join Brienne on her quest.

  26. Hounded
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    I definitely think season 4 has the potential to be the best so far. It should have big events happening all through the season, not just at the end.

    Episode 1 – Wildlings attack the wall from the south
    Episode 2 – Joffrey’s wedding
    Episode 3 – Mance attacks the wall
    Episode 4 – Battle to take Meereen
    Episode 5 – Arya and Hound at the inn
    Episode 6 – Red Viper VS Mountain
    Episode 7 – Stannis attacks Mance
    Episode 8 – Kingsmoot
    Episode 9 – Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae
    Episode 10 – Jon becomes new LC

    Or something like that. Definitely big stuff at the Wall and King’s Landing.

  27. Rosie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Any bets on what will be Episode 9?

    I’m think it’ll be the Mountain vs Red Viper and/or the death of Tywin. I think if they leave the death of Tywin until Episode 10, Tyrion’s escape will be too rushed.

    Either way, not looking forward to the death of Tywin.

  28. HoundsLady
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    I have a feeling they’re going to change a major plot point and make Tywin hang Shae, which is what makes Tyrion kill Tywin. Tywin’s already commented that he’ll hang any whore Tyrion’s with, and the show has augmented Tyrion and Shae’s relationship in that it seriously looks like Shae loves him (it was always a bit suspect in the books). I just can’t see Tyrion strangling Shae under the show’s circumstances. It would make Tyrion incredibly unlikeable by the audience and they’ve already shown that they’ll make alterations to shape certain characters’ images (e.g. “The Lannisters send their regards” instead of “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.”)

  29. A Storm of S-Words
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    mead,

    I think D&D would like Braavos to make a grand entrance, beautifully presented with the Titan and the canals and bridges. That requires a lot of set-making and CGI and I don’t think they’d have the time with all the stuff going on at the wall next season. As much as I wonder what she’ll do for 10 episodes with the Hound, I think they’ll just end it with her getting on a boat, maybe with her seeing the Titan in the distance. But I could easily be wrong.

  30. PatD
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    D and D said they want a certain battle to be bigger than Blackwater. (!)

    Ooo. Best news ever. The Battle of Castle Black was my favorite part of the book.

    I don’t know if y’all have seen that video over at The Hollywood Reporter with the Drama Showrunners Roundtable, but when asked about the peculiarities of adapting from a book, D.B. made it very clear that at a certain point, the show and the books will have to part. As a bookreader, I find that potentially very exciting.

  31. Benjamin Wakefield
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Joan Català,

    Exactly this, some arcs like Brienne’s, The Boltons’ and Dany’s have to be moved forward. Others have plenty to play out but are slower in the next season (Tyrion)

  32. Silverstormm
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    HoundsLady,

    Yes I think you could have a very good point there. Also given how show Shae is being portrayed as being ‘truly’ in love with Tyrion it would seem extremely odd and out of character for her to a. be a witness against him in the trial and b. sleep with Tywin! So I am inclined to agree with your theory :)

  33. Omar Brown
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    D&D have said repeatedly that they think the bloat of the books are a problem and going forward a lot of cutting and streamlining will be needed to keep from jumping around every 3 minutes on screen.

    Dorne:
    I think we might see only The Red Viper and Arrianne in S4 to establish that House. Then Doran in S5 and Quentin? I would dump his whole storyline, despite his cool death, was a waste.

    The Greyjoys:
    After Ballin’ Balon dies, he needs to be replaced. I the show really gonna bother with Euron, Victarion, and Aerion? Worse Euron and Aerion sound alike, more reason to cut some stuff here. I honestly have no clue how they will fix this.

    The Tyrells:
    They will establish Mace as he comes to the PW ( the PW is gonna be BIG! Both plot and character wise )
    After Tywin dies, having Mace become hand immediately ( cutting out all those silly intermediate hands ) makes sense, and should provide some fun conflict with Cersei.

  34. Joan Català
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    A Storm of S-Words,

    They can end her storyline early (midseason) and next time we see her is S5.

  35. Chase
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    I’m just gonna come out and say it, that whitehead guy is a damned idiot. I guess he thinks each episode in season 4 will be 2 hours long, some of the dumbest shit I’ve ever read.

  36. Duval
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Tessa_Leonie,

    I hadn’t even considered this, but that sounds pretty plausible. On the other hand though, they’ve been giving Podrick some big moments (heh) this season, so why give him that much screentime and not use him later on?
    It could also be possible she kills Locke this season. Seeing as Locke is still alive and there aren’t any important brave companions for her to kill later on (well except for maybe Rorge or Biter, but I very much doubt that).

    I to am very curious as to what they will do with Bran. Sam quite explicitly gave them all the dragonglass daggers on the show, which he doesn’t do in the books right? So I guess we’ll see some added material for them.

    I also don’t think we’ll see Davos at Eastwatch, so could it be we’d already get some Manderly action near the end of the season? Or maybe they’ll use Davos as a reason to give Shireen some more screentime, which I’d enjoy.

    And I’m also wondering what they’ll do with Arya. The coin trick to kill the guard in the books was just a necessity to escape, while in this case it was more out of anger. I’m hoping they’ll skip the ‘how many, how many, how many’ fight and use this as a replacement. But I think she’ll stay with the hound a bit longer than in the books.

  37. Dorkmaster Flek
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    HoundsLady,

    That is exactly what my wife was speculating. Shae is quite different from the books it seems. She genuinely cares for Sansa, and they don’t seem to be setting up her betrayal of Tyrion in the show. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Tywin ends up hanging her, and with the gold “hand” chain at that.

  38. WompWomp
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea: re the choreographer that did the Achilles vs Hector fight in Troy for The mountain vs red viper,

    Heartily agreed. Say what you will about Troy, but it had some singularly awesome fights, including the opening duel.

  39. Joan Català
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    There’s enough cliffhangers for two finales, so expecting two great last episodes:

    Tywin’s death.
    Red Viper vs the Mountain (though this one could happen earlier, ep8)
    Jon is elected as Lord Commander.
    Littlefinger kills Lysa.
    Possible intro of Lady Stoneheart (if she isn’t introduced in the premiere)
    Bran meets the children of the forest? Holding Bloodraven for S5.
    Plus oyher occurences from ADWD and AFFC that could be moved up, like the Kingsmoot.

  40. SonofRant
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    I can see Gendry accompanying Breinne and Pod on the quest for the Stark girls. Not sure how they would meet or come together. Could Gendry be the blacksmith that makes the two Lannister swords from Ice Gendry could be useful in finding the Brothers Without Banners the last people he saw with Arya.
    I think the big reveal will be instead of Beric Dondarrion being in charge it is Lady Stoneheart. We will never see them pulling her body from the water.

  41. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    In the UK ASOS is split into two volumes. The first volume has 688 pages. The second has 656. Episode 10 of season 3 finished roughly 200 pages into the second volume. There’s no way season 4 will comprise entirely of ASOS material when they’ve sped through it so fast (even including Ramsay/Theon’s ADWD plot), and only have around 4-500 pages left to adapt. No doubt we’ll have AFFC and ADWD creeping into the last 2-3 episodes. Maybe sooner, though I think we’ll have some padding in the form of original or expanded plotlines.

  42. Helen Tran
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    I was just thinking that! Troy was largely underwhelming I found, BUT the Achilles vs. Hector fight was one of the best choreographed one-on-ones I’ve ever seen.

  43. ebevan91
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    SonofRant:
    I can see Gendry accompanying Breinne and Pod on the quest for the Stark girls.Not sure how they would meet or come together. Could Gendry be the blacksmith that makes the two Lannister swords from IceGendry could be useful in finding the Brothers Without Banners the last people he saw with Arya.
    I think the big reveal will be instead of Beric Dondarrion being in charge it is Lady Stoneheart.We will never see them pulling her body from the water.

    I think as long as we see Thoros with Stoneheart, the audience will know what happened. They’ll put 2 and 2 together.

  44. TonyGen
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    As someone else said D&D have been clear they want to keep the momentum of the plot going. I think they are going to have to introduce some AFFC/ADWD plotline unless they plan on making up plotlines for some characters. There is a lot for KL/the wall but what about the rest.

  45. typis
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    So both of the essays believe season 5 is going to include 2 books or did i get something wrong. I mean yeah, compared to ASoS AFfC and ADwD are not as dramatical and exciting but there are still some major events to happen that most certainly could mark the end of an season, so there would absolutely be no reason to show winds of winter material in season 5 already:
    >Jons death (end of season 6)
    > Aegon is still alive (season 5)
    >Daenerys wedding (season 5)
    >Beheading of Mance Rayder (season 5)
    > Danys first Dragonflight (Season 6)
    > Cersei being imprisoned (season 5)
    >Cerseis walk of shame (season 6)
    >Return of Euron Greyjoy + Kingsmoot (season 5)
    >Death of Quentyn (season 6)

    Maybe some of them are not as bad ass as neds beheading or the red wedding but they would still do as a season 9. I believe season 4 will deal with the rest of ASoS´plot that didn´t happen so far and seasons 5 and 6 will show book 4 and 5 only without the geographical split. And since GRRM will most likely need another 2 years to finish Winds of Winter D&D will most likely do their best to stretch storylines, add some extra material that wasn´t seen in the book, add another lovestory that annoyes everyone (since Robb and Talisa are gone) until mr Martin is done with his books.

  46. Anne
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    I think only roughly half the season will be ASOS material. I think they’ll start including stuff from books 4 & 5 by episode 6, which by that time ASOS material will be over and done with.

  47. Ludwig
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Chase,

    As Adam is one of the best informed bloggers when it comes to SFF in literature and television, and one of the experts on both GRRM and his writing, youactually just demonstrated what a laughingly clueless person you are.

  48. Nick Larter
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Joan Català:
    Skywarpgold,

    I think that Asha/Yara going to the Dreadfort is just a feint from the writers. My bet is that she’ll get word that Balon has died way before she gets even close to the Dreadfort. Then they can introduce the Kingsmoot.

    Totally agree!

  49. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    For people talking about the Ironborn plot, I’m pretty sure the Kingsmoot is moot. The only important thing about it is that Euron takes the throne, which can happen without dedicating a bunch of screentime to characters the audience is completely unfamiliar with. Yara going to the Dreadfort will get her into the middle of the action in the North, where she is in the fifth book.

  50. StannisBane
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    ANiceChianti,

    You’rr right, it’s almost definitely then. Episode 4 is always a game changing episode.
    S1 – Catelyn captures Tyrion
    S2 – Demon Shadow birth
    S3 – Dracarys

    Therefore, PW is probably Episode 4.
    However, there is always the chance that they might fear becoming predictable, and place the wedding in episode 2 or 3.

  51. Nick Larter
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Ludwig:
    Chase,

    As Adam is one of the best informed bloggers when it comes to SFF in literature and television, and one of the experts on both GRRM and his writing, youactually just demonstrated what a laughingly clueless person you are.

    Are you serious? His interview of GRRM at Olympus a year or two back was sooooo bad. Three or four times during the course of it GRRM tried to digress from the unimaginative straitjacket that was being imposed upon him, so as to give the audience something more interesting to ponder and each time he was dragged back into the mire as the interviewer ploughed on obliviously.

  52. Mark
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    King’s Landing: Episodes 1-2 introduce Mace Tyrell & Red Viper. I think they will include Arianne Martell at King’s Landing so we are introduced to her, and then she could return back to Dorneat the end of the season. Lots of juicy backstory and interactions with new faces and the Lannisters. PW in episode 3 or 4. Jaime sends Brienne off to find Sansa after she escapes with Littlefinger after the PW. Tyrion’s trial by combat in episode 6, his escape and double murder in 9. Season should end with him arriving in (Braavos? Is that where he goes? I get the free cities mixed up) to set up season 5. Jaime and Cersei should be shown reacting to Tywin’s death in episode 10.

    Cat: I’m hoping that when they reveal Lady Stoneheart, it is done in the same way as the books. Seeing her revival would be shocking and interesting, but I thought it was awesome that the first time we saw it was because she was taking revenge on the Frey’s. I’m hoping that it’s either the first or last scene in the first episode, and then she meets up with Brienne at the end of the season (I see Brienne getting her journey started about mid-way through the season, after the PW). I still think it should have ended this season.

    Brienne: Like I said before, she will hang around King’s Landing (maybe some interactions with Loras?) and then leave after the PW. Gets captured by Brotherhood Without Banners/Lady Stoneheart in season finale OR if they don’t want to speed it up too much, she could kill Locke to end her plotline.

    Jon: Skirmish at Castle Black in episodes 3, 4 or 5, after catching up to start the season. Ygritte Dies. Preparations for the Battle at the Wall. Battle at the Wall should happen in episode 8, to give Jon time to interact with Stannis and be elected Lord Commander in episode 10.

    Bran: I would guess it ends with him meeting the children of the forest in episode 10. Traveling, backstory, the story of the Laughing Wolf, Coldhands, etc.

    Sansa: Gets to the Eyrie in maybe episode 6 or 7, sees Lysa being pushed out the window in episode 10.

    Arya: Hound “dies” midway through the season, Arya boards the boat and goes to Braavos, where she meets “Jaqen H’gar” again….which would be a crowdpleaser to end the season.

    Theon: Don’t know what they’ll do with him this season. Maybe end with him helping to capture Moat Cailin? Don’t think they will get up to his escape from Winterfell, that would be way too far into aDWD.

    Yara: Don’t know what will happen with her…what will become of her rescue attempt? They made it seem pretty epic but that is potentially a big diversion from books. Needless to say, at some point Balon will die. I hope they show it and that it is Jaqen who does it as a “faceless man.” I wouldn’t mind if they combine Euron/Victarion. Really interested to see where the Greyjoy plotline ends up.

    Martells: Red Viper and Arianne introduced. Arianne returns to Dorne at the end of the season, to meet with her father. Probably won’t be shown and will be saved for season 5.

    Dany: She’ll conquer Mereen in episode 4 after learning of Jorah’s betrayl. Jorah is sent off and Dany starts to rule. Moves into ADWD….shows child burned by dragon in episode 6 or 7. Romance with Daario grows. I think they could end with the season with her marrying Hizadrak mo Hodor or whatever his name is. But, I think they will start to tease the oncoming battle of Fire, which I think we will see at the end of season 5.

    All in all, I think this could be the best season yet. Early season surprise with Cat Stark being brought back (shades of Bran being pushed in episode 1 as a shocker). Then, mid-season big events such as the taking of Mereen, Ygritte’s Death, and of course the Purple Wedding and Tyrion’s trial by combat. Huge battle in episode 8 or 9 with the Battle at the Wall. Shocking deaths of Tywin and Shae in episode 9. Then, Episode 10 has Jon being elected Lord Commander, Lysa being killed, and future plotlines for Tyrion, Arya, and Bran being set in motion, which will all be crowdpleasers. Can’t wait.

  53. Utiz4321
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Is green and Dolorous Ed dead in the show?

  54. Rhaegar
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe we have to wait so long to find out about S4! Here is what I think it will hapen:

    KL – Almost the same than the books but with PW in episode 5. Episode 9 will be RV vs the Mountain and ep 10, tywin’s death. I think Shae wont die but will be sent by Tywin somewhere… “wherever whores go”. The betrayal Shae does on the books doesn’t make any sense on the show where she really cares for Tyrion. And please send Arianne to KL with the Red Viper, I would love to hear the Red Viper tell Arianne about Quentyn’s trip closer to the finale!

    Meeren: Dany’s story will not be the highlight of the season. I guess they will bring forward some of the love story with Daario, his rivalry with Jorah and in the end discovering Jorah’s betrayal…maybe Varys sends him a letter asking for information and Barristan or Daario discovers it. Dany deciding to stay in Meeren will be the end of the season.

    The Wall: exactly the same than in the books with the big battle on the Wall on episode 6, Stannis on episode 8 and Jon LC on episode 10. Ygritte might die earlier, on episode 3 -4.

    Greyjoys – I loved the Kingsmoot but it sounds odd that Yara would go back without rescuing Theon… hopefully they get to include it somehow, I’m dying to see the Greyjoy brothers! Season finale: Euron sending Victarion to steal the dragons!

    Arya: The Hound will die during the first episodes, she will get on the boat and reach the house of the Undying in the last episode

    Bran: Hopefully it would just be practicing his powers, maybe escaping from some wildlings and close to the end, Coldhands saving them from White Walkers!

    Brienne: send her after Sansa or Arya and have her meer LS in the last episode.

    Ramsay: The first half chasing Rickon and Osha, then meeting the fake Arya and taking care of the ironborn.

    Sansa: not sure how will she escape, I suspect they removed the plotting between Olenna and Little finger so not sure if it would be exactly at the PW. Anyway Lysa dying in ep 9.

  55. Mark
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.:
    For people talking about the Ironborn plot, I’m pretty sure the Kingsmoot is moot.The only important thing about it is that Euron takes the throne, which can happen without dedicating a bunch of screentime to characters the audience is completely unfamiliar with.Yara going to the Dreadfort will get her into the middle of the action in the North, where she is in the fifth book.

    I like this idea. No reason that Yara can’t hear about this from afar. I know my unsullied wife, who HATED the Theon plot this season, is really excited for Yara to try and rescue him. It would be lame if she just turned around.

  56. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    The Wall and Beyond:

    Episode 1 – Jon recovers, and warns Maester Aemon of Mance’s plans. Donal Noye questions why Jon was wearing the sheepskin clothes of the Wildlings, Jon informs them of Quorin’s command, but also tells them about Ygritte.

    Episode 2: Mance sends the Magnar and his Thenns over the Wall to meet up with Tormund and crew; Bran and Co. explore an abandoned village and tell stories(Tourney at Harrenhal, please!);The NW prepares Castle Black for Battle.

    Episode 4: The Wildlings attack from the South; Jon and the NW defend Castle Black; Jon discovers Ygritte in the aftermath.

    Episode 5: Bran and Co. are attacked by a group of wights, but are saved by Coldhands; Mance is told that the Thenns were defeated South of the Wall and prepares to attack the Wall even though he lost the element of surprise.

    Episode 6: The NW recovers from the Battle at Castle Black, only to discover Mance’s army is amassed right outside the Wall; Coldhands discusses Bran’s journey and where he is headed.

    Episode 7: Mance’s army attacks the Wall; Jon leads the defense and is able to hold off Mance’s army; Janos Slynt and Ser Aliser arrive and arrest Jon.

    Episode 8: Jon is interrogated and is told he must kill Mance Rayder to prove his loyalty to the NW.

    Episode 9: Jon is sent to treat with Mance and kill him; Stannis and his men arrive just in time to save Jon and crush Mance’s army.

    Episode 10: Bran and Co. are surrounded by Wights and White Walkers, they barely manage to escape, with the help of the Children of the Forest;Stannis offers to legitimize Jon as a Stark and name him Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North; Jon is elected as Lord Commander and refuses Stannis’ offer, the Wall is now his.

  57. John
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    KL plot as I think of it now:
    E01 – Tywin mentions to Tyrion that the Martells are coming, Cersei&Jamie are not the lovers anymore they used to be
    E02 – Arrival of the Martells (and Tyrells), talking about the Tyrell / Martell rivalry, Brienne getting arrested
    E03 – Loras talks to Brienne and joins the Kings Guard afterwards (to fight Stannis, protect the next king and get rid of the marriage with Cersei), wedding preparations
    E04 – maybe Joffreys nameday?
    E05 – the PW, Sansas escape
    E06 – Jamie sets Brienne free (this way she hasn’t been able to talk to Sansa)
    E07 – Tyrions accusal and the foreshadowing of the trial by battle
    E08 – the Viper VS Mountain battle
    E09 – no. 9 is always the “wow”-episode, but it won’t be KL
    E10 – Tyrions rescue and Tywins death

    Note to episode 2:
    GRRM is writing the script of episode 2 and we know that he never writes the huge things, but sets the pieces into the right direction, so chances are pretty low that the PW will happen before ep 3. The first two episodes will be – as in season 3 – the pick up for the audience with all the characters and plots.

    Note about ShowShae:
    Maybe we will see her accuse Tyrion of everything in episode 7?
    That will give him the ultimate reason for killing her in episode 10, although I doubt it. More likely that Tywin will get rid of Shae while Tyrion sits in a cell. Being asked about her Tywin can tell Tyrion she is ‘wherever whores go’ (would be a good TV change imho)

    Feel free to discuss and add things! :)

  58. Negan's Iron
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Read an article somewhere in which the writer speculated the Battle for Castle Black would take place in ep 39 lol…

  59. pntrlqst
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    I think if they stick exclusively to ASOS material, they’re going to stretch it too thin and it’s not going to have the same effect. Sure, if they were 100% faithful they could probably do it by only covering three chapters per episode, but that’s not how this show is structured and shouldn’t be. If they don’t go that route (they won’t) and still want to have most of ASOS conclusions happen in episodes nine and ten, then we’re in for D&D filler throughout just to ensure that ASOS climaxes are s4′s climaxes.

    I’d rather they adapt the rest of the material as faithful as possible, but still streamlined for compelling television. I don’t want bloat.

    I’d at least get Dany to the point where she has to chain up her dragons and the Sons of the Harpy are starting to become a problem. I’d also get Jon to executing Janos Slynt and the departure of Blackbird. Arya to getting to the House of Black and White.

    I suppose if any ASOS is stretched out it should be the King’s Landing stuff.

  60. Peter
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Bran & The Reeds will definitely need material from later books, or a fabricated storyline, as all of their Book 3 material has been covered.
    In fact, Bran only has 3 chapters of material left for the rest of the books published thus far.
    He’s going to run out of storyline VERY soon unless D&D do some heavy embellishing, which I’m sure they are planning to do.

  61. Darquemode
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    My hope is Season 4 will be about Dany taking Meereen and not getting into the city until the vey end of the season. So an actual siege and her dealing with the new masses of followers that she has collected. Then season 5 can be dealing with learning to rule and Quentyn and season 6 dealing with politics and revolt.

    I would think the battle at the Wall will stretch most of the year and the choosing of a new Lord Commander is pushed to Season 5.

    Tyrion’s escape should be the highlight of the finale…Maybe….

    Hopefully Bran’s arc will be a lot of new material with heavy exposition on histories and prophecies.

  62. Nick Larter
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    I could see them bringing some of the Dorne stuff from AFFC forwards to S4: Doran at the water gardens with the children for example – maybe introduce RV before he sets off to KL.

  63. SerCountryFriedSteak
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Since I think D&D are 50% genius / 50% flubbing; here’s what I’d do:

    JON – Ygritte death in Episode 5/6, Battle at Wall in Episode 9, Elected in Episode 10

    ARYA – Brought toward Eyrie in early episodes. Fight in episode 4/5. Hound’s death in Episode 6. Meets man from Braavos with Ship in Episode 8. Arrives at House of B&W in Episode 10.

    JOFFREY – PW in Episode 1 aka start the season with a mother f’ing BANG (more likely they’ll do it in episode 4, boo!)

    YARA – we don’t see her until episode 5/6, she gets captured by Stannis & Davos - a prisoner for the rest of the season.

    TEAM STANNIS – Early episodes based around Stannis debating to bring his wife & kid. Middle part of the season, he hears rumors of an Iron Island ship coming up the Narrow Sea – he and Davos capture Yara. Disappear until they show up in Episode 9 at the Battle at the Wall.

    TYRION – Spends most of the season in dungeon. Bronn gets a wife/castle to keep him from defending Tyrion. He gets visits from Red Viper while in prison. Varys helps him escape in Episode 10, kills father, gets on a boat as SNOW FLAKES drop on King’s Landing.

    SANSA – Someone will approach her in first episode (still hope for Ser Dontos) and give her the hairnet. After wedding, she sees Littlefinger’s marriage in Episode 5. Lyssa Arryn goes thru Moon Door in episode 9 or 10.

    CERSEI – After Joff’s RIP, she spends most of season trying to keep Margaery from Tommen.

    JAIME / BRIENNE – Brienne opens season in cell (Loras’ demands) After the wedding, Jaime gets her out. They leave King’s Landing together (with Pod) to go hunt for Sansa. Sad that Jaime doesn’t talk to Tyrion in the secret tunnels, but he’ll tell Tyrion about Tysha earlier in season.

    RAMSAY/”REEK” – They go hunting for the Stark boys. The climax is when they come across Osha & Rickon… and Theon either helps them escape or pretends not to recognize them.

    BALON – Dies early when his brother kills him. Said brother declares himself King of the Iron Islands. (Think Crow’s Eye and all the brothers get rolled into one character)

    RED VIPER – I’d have a scene in Dorne with Myrcella in the bkg, where Doran sends him to King’s Landing for the wedding/revenge. The fight vs. the Mountain is great Episode 9 material.

    TEAM BRAN – as most say, nothing much happens, but I’d have him and the crew have scary times around Craster’s Keep – either evil Night’s Watch peeps or zombie Night’s Watch peeps. He falls for Meera. Reaches the cave in Episode 10.

    ROOSE – I’d assume they want to keep the actor around. He gets the task of tracking down & killing the Brotherhood Without Banners. He doesn’t succeed but his men and some Freys get LADY STONEHEARTED in final scene of the season.

  64. Mark
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    I think many people are forgetting that the series is only going to be 7 or 8 seasons max. Seven seasons was a rumor that was floating about, but D&D also said that they thought the series would be 80 episodes at the end. So, in order to do the final books and the rest of the plot justice, I think they’ll actually dip into the Winds of Winter for season 5. There’s no way they’ll stretch out Dany in Mereen over 3 seasons. The Battle of Fire that’s being set up at the end of ADWD will happen in season 5. Part of the reason ADWD was such a downer is that two huge battles were teased but we didn’t actually get either of them, and the book ended with whimper.

    Season 5 endings: Jon dies, Battle of Fire (however that turns out), Jaime captured/meets Lady Stoneheart, Varys kills Kevan.

  65. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    John,

    Loras is not going to have Brienne arrested in the show. He’s already said he doesn’t believe she had anything to do with Renly’s death.

  66. queenofthorns
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Looking forward to season 4, what I’m really hoping to see is to cram as much of the book 4 and book 5 plot points as are reasonable into this season. If they don’t, we end up with this season being hugely lopsided in favor of a few characters (Jon/Tyrion/Sansa) given what we’ve already gone through during S3. Think about it – Bran’s story is DONE. So is Davos’. Theon’s never existed. Etc.

    Arcs that should end at roughly the end of ASOS: Jon, Sam, Sansa, Tyrion (ep 9 finale)

    Arcs that need material from AFFC/ADWD: Jaime, Cersei, Brienne, Asha/Ironborn (the entire kingsmoot story), Theon (duh), Arianne (all of it, cut Quentyn until he arrives in Meereen), Bran (we did ALL of ASOS, get him to the wight battle/BR), Dany (get her to Drogon eating babies), Davos, Arya

  67. OhDanyBoy
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Note to episode 2:
    GRRM is writing the script of episode 2 and we know that he never writes the huge things, but sets the pieces into the right direction, so chances are pretty low that the PW will happen before ep 3. The first two episodes will be – as in season 3 – the pick up for the audience with all the characters and plots.

    GRRM wrote Blackwater.

  68. Taylor
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    BAH! What does PW stand for?! Haha I’ve read the books and I’m blanking you guys…

  69. Silverstormm
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Taylor,

    Purple Wedding – Joffery & Margery

  70. Fraq
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    They will have to introduce the Martells early and give the show watchers a chance to meet this fan favorite house. I’m guessing that the first couple of episodes will revolve around re familiarizing the audience with season where season 3 left off, introducing the Martel’s, the battle at the wall, and hinting at a certain Lady Stoneheart.

    Jofferey’s wedding is mid-season episode four or five with the following episodes revolving around the fallout from that and the Tyrions trial. We will also start to see signs of Cearsei’s paranoia building and possibly a bit of her cracking mentally.

    Episode 9 is the trial by combat and Twyin will (or rather will not) shit gold, I also think we’ll see John become Lord Commander in this episode.

    Episode 10 will close things out with Tyrion’s barrell–I mean boat ride… and finally us catching a Glimpse of Lady Stone Heart.

    I didn’t mention Daeny’s, Aria’s, Theon’s, or Bran’s storyline because honestly… I got no freaking idea. All three of those stories are so close to the end of Book 3 that I dunno how they can ring anymore out of them without going into book 4 (or in some cases book 5).

    Next Season will have to focus more on the Wall and Kings Landing. There is still so much left to tell.

    Also the Martells are my favorite! Can’t wait to see the Red Viper and Ellaria Sand!!!! *wolf whistle*

  71. PatD
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    They need to hire the choreographer that did the Achilles vs Hector fight in Troy for The mountain vs red viper,

    Woa. Excellent suggestion, and that would be:

    Richard Ryan, who was the president of the British Academy of Stage and Screen Combat.

    he studied both written and pictorial sources from the period, and
    did a lot of experimenting. The Achilles/Hector fight was deliberately
    choreographed to represent a combat between two almost-perfect warriors,
    capable of near superhuman skill.

    http://www.stagefight.com/Stagefight.com/Home.html

  72. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    I think this season will feature the most new material. If Bran is to be featured in this season then almost everything he does will need to be original to the show. We don’t know where this Yara plot is going. I think people should start preparing for some major changes going forward. D&D are starting to become more open with their feeling on what they need to do going forward into AFFC/ADWD material. I don’t see Sam ever going to Oldtown. I don’t think Victarion will be in the show. It will just be Euron who sails the Iron Fleet to Meereen after he is chosen as King. And the biggest change will be the complete omission of the ‘Aegon’ /Connington/Golden Company/Blackfyre plot. Varys and Illyrio will simply support Dany.

  73. Andrew
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    I’m personally very glad they didn’t end Season 3 with the Stoneheart reveal, as that scene had almost all of its impact 500 pages after the RW; if the show had done it the very next week, the impact would have been severely blunted, IMHO. It’s been a bit disappointing seeing people outraged it wasn’t included, because to me I think it deserves to be the stinger for Season 4.

    Based on where the show left several characters, I agree with Winter that S4 will be primarily Book3: Part 2, with Bran the only character getting post-Book 3 material. That is as it should be. They need to give GRRM time to write, and not touch Books 4-5 until seasons 5-6.

  74. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    They’re not going to structure their writing of the show around giving Martin time to write. With 7-8 seasons, the show is going to outpace him. That’s inevitable at this point.

  75. mariamb
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Joan Català:
    Skywarpgold,

    I think that Asha/Yara going to the Dreadfort is just a feint from the writers. My bet is that she’ll get word that Balon has died way before she gets even close to the Dreadfort. Then they can introduce the Kingsmoot.

    A good possibility. I like the fact that they are giving Yara a purpose but I think that the Kingsmoot can be dropped. As someone else said, when she arrives back in the Iron Islands, Uncle Euron will have grabbed the Seastone Chair.

    As far as combining all of the remaining Greyjoy brother into one…how would that work? Euron and Victarion are at cross-purposes. Eliminating either of them would be a significant shift in the story, I think. Maybe they can combine Euron and Aeron (the latter seems to have no purpose whatsoever).

    Tessa_Leonie:
    I’m guessing Gendry doesn’t fall out of the boat and makes it to KL. Then he can join Brienne on her quest.

    I like this suggestion. There would be no reason for him to join up with BWB again after they sold him to Mel. He can take the place of Ser Hyle Hunt and join Brienne and Pod as they wander around Westeros. Hopefully, this will be a much more abbreviated journey than the books.

    Any ideas of how/when the split between Dany and Ser Jorah will arise?

    I fear that a number of characters may be cut or combined as we move forward, based on Dan’s comment on “negative population growth.” http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/

  76. Paul Blackfyre
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    I think Season 4 will contain the remaining elements from A Storm of Swords and some minor elements from the next two books, to set things up for future seasons.

    The main storylines will obviously be the ones at King’s Landing and The Wall. We will also regularly follow what happens with Dany, Sansa, Arya and Bran. That’s almost completely certain.

    In addition to that, I think we will see another two plots that will be a mixture of book elements and new ones.

    First, I am convinced that we will see some kind of Greyjoy vs. Bolton face off, giving Theon, Yara, Balon, Roose and Ramsay something to do. Additionally, I think that we will see the Kingsmoot in the last 2 or 3 episodes and, as a consequence, we will meet Euron and Victarion. Aeron will almost certainly be cut.

    Secondly, I also think that Walder Frey will have a more prominent role than he has in the books, considering that he is the Lord of Riverrun now. Taking this into account, my opinion is that we will see some kind of Frey vs. Tully (the rest of them) face-off, giving Walder Frey, the Blackfish, Edmure, Roslin, Lothar Frey and Black Walder Frey something to do. We will probably see Jaime in the Riverlands with Walder Frey in the last couple of episodes. Also, Lady Stoneheart and the rest of the BWB may appear soon next season, taking part in this Frey vs. Tully battle.

    Lastly, I am not sure what they will do with Brienne. I think that her plot from A Feast for Crows will be cut or, at least, condensed. But she will probably leave King’s Landing by the end of the season.

    And I think this will be it.

    EDIT: Regarding Gendry… Honestly, I don’t have a clue.

  77. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    mariamb,

    I wouldn’t think of it as combining the Greyjoy brothers, but more like eliminating one or two of them. I would eliminate Victarion and just have Euron, as king, command the Iron Fleet as they sail to Meereen.

  78. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    mariamb:

    As far as combining all of the remaining Greyjoy brother into one…how would that work? Euron and Victarion are at cross-purposes. Eliminating either of them would be a significant shift in the story, I think. Maybe they can combine Euron and Aeron (the latter seems to have no purpose whatsoever).

    The question would be whether the conflict between them is really that relevant. I would guess not. One Greyjoy is needed (maybe) to go to Meereen and get Daenarys. The rest can likely be dispensed with.

  79. Isabelle
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Hounded: Episode 6 – Red Viper VS Mountain

    Gosh I hope they don’t kill off the Red Viper in episode six! If there is one character for which I’d like them to pack in the extra scenes, it’s Oberyn Martell.

    Tessa_Leonie:
    I’m guessing Gendry doesn’t fall out of the boat and makes it to KL. Then he can join Brienne on her quest.

    Love this idea!!! It would also take Brienne away from Cersei, though a scene between those two would be gold…

    Arya’s probably going to wander round with the Hound–they may even do some of Lady Stoneheart’s killing. I do think they’ll include Braavos, though–she’ll probably head off mid-season, or in the finale.

    The Great Northern Conspiracy–he didn’t have a line, but the showrunners made sure to include a Manderly at the Red Wedding. Am expecting we’ll either see or hear of Wyman Manderly (or another northman) receiving news of his death, and plotting from there (or mourning…they may want to keep his plotting a secret until Davos reaches White Harbour, if indeed that’s still in the works. He may retrieve Rickon directly from Last Hearth instead.)

    Would also expect to see some reaction to Roose Bolton, Warden of the North.

    And I do hope they show the scene where Jon tells Stannis who the new Lord Commander is!!! : )

  80. Quowala
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    I can’t wait for some Jon/ Stannis interactions.
    Sullen meets Stern !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Also I hope they bring Wyman Manderly forward into season 4 otherwise Davos won’t have much to do which would be a shame as he was great in the latest ep. “The don’t fall out.” Liam Cunningham has elevated book Davos to a whole new level – brilliant actor. Davos doesn’t have any POV’s in the latter half of ASOS but its mentioned in DWD that he spent some time with Selyse and Shireen at Eastwatch by the Sea. They could have him there I suppose but he wouldn’t have much to do. I would prefer if he got dropped of at White Harbour as Stannis is en route to the Wall.

  81. Andrew
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    I agree with you. Books 4-5 should yield no more than 1.5 seasons of plot TOPS. I’m saying they’ll have more than enough Book 3 material and show canon (Yara & Theon) to fill Season 4. They could have ended the Arya- Hound story in “Mhysa” and sent Arya overseas in season 4 quite easily; but they slowed down and now I expect Arya & The Hound to be together for most of season 4. Choices like that largely bought GRRM another year of lead time.

  82. vampiredoctor
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    They’d be foolish to stretch things out too much. They need to dip into AFFC/ADWD. Open with the PW, it a wedding that’s been talked about by the characters since the end of season 2. If they wait till the end of the season for the Battle at the Wall, what will Stannis do the whole time? Bran needs to reach the Three Eyed Crow. Another entire season of him traveling will not be enticing. Don’t spend more than 2 seasons in Mereen, bring forward the Battle of Fire into season 5 (it was supposed to be in ADWD anyway.)

  83. Hounded
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Paul Blackfyre,

    I think they’ll replace Emmon Frey with Lord Walder. It will be old Waldie sat there going “Don’t damage my new castle!”.
    Although I really hope they still have Genna Lannister. Her conversation with Jaime is one of the best bits of FFC

  84. Isabelle
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Quowala: I can’t wait for some Jon/ Stannis interactions.
    Sullen meets Stern !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    These two are comedy gold. From Apple Martini, one of my favourite posters over at Westeros:

    I think Jon and Stannis need to do a buddy cop spin-off.

    Stannis: “Tell me what I want to know or I’ll burn you alive!”
    Suspect: *turns to Jon frantically*
    Jon: “He’s crazy, man, he’ll do it. Now, I don’t think you did it, but tell him that.”
    Suspect: *confesses*

  85. mariamb
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    That makes sense…assuming that Euron’s raids in the Reach aren’t going to contribute significantly to the plot. I’m not a huge fan of the Greyjoy brothers so I would not object to this change but I think that many fans would (including my son).

    Some odd comments in that Vulture article:
    – “Meanwhile, Ramsay’s plans for Theon/Reek evolve into a new kind of torture, and he’s got his eye on Arya”:
    - regarding Brienne: “when Cersei perceives her to be a threat to her twincest love affair”

  86. Hodors Balls
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    Agreed ! That fight was epic ,as is the Mountain vs Red Viper!

  87. Veltigar
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    _Arya: travelling with the Hound, hearing about the change in leadership of the BwB, more Hound backstory, fight at the inn where Sandor gets hurt and she gets Needle back, Sandor gets sick they argue she treatens to kill him and eventially leaves him.

    _ Brienne: she’ll stay in KL, she meets Gendry and learns about Arya, Jaime sends her out to look for Arya with the sword, Gendry follows, more namedropping of LS, eventually they come into conflict with Locke (I think the fight at the inn and at the Whispers will be combined), both parties are arrested by the BwB, LS reveal and hanging off Brienne, Gendry and Locke.

    _Tyrion: Mace Tyrells arrival, Oberyns introduction, PW in episode 3, Tyrion in jail, Tyrion’s trial, episode 8 Oberyn vs. the Mountain, episode 9 death of Tywin

    _Cersei: wedding preparations + relationship with Jaime, being pissed at Tyrion, attracting the Mountain (built his reputation up)

    _Stannis: some moments with Davos before departure, arriving at the wall, episode 5/6 battle at the wall,, rest of ASOS (probably with extended scenes with Aemon and Jon)

    _Jon: Recovery from wounds and arrival of Mances army, attack of the wildlings with the death of Ygritte in episode 2/3, episode 4/5 battle at the wall, episode 5/6 extended scene in Mance’s tent (with the story about the cloak, introduction of Vall and Dalla), episode 5/6 Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!, talk with Stannis Samwell and Aemon, elected to the position of LC in episode 10

    _Theon: more torture + heading somewhere south

    _Asha: learns that Ramsay went south and thus goes to Moat Caillin, fight at Deepwood motte, victory for her but she isn’t able to get to Theon, she learns that Crowseye has taken the throne and goes back to search for the Kingsmoot, Kingsmoot and introduction of Euron and Victarion (important for next season because they could use the battle for the shield Island as episode 4 OMFG moment)

    _Dany: the rest of ASOS (Barristan replaces Belwas in the fight)

    _Sansa: escape from KL, rest from ASOS, culminating in Lysa death

  88. gisizzlah
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Well i expect a lot of new material especially with the Greyjoys…
    Seeing that we never actually ‘saw’ how Balon died…
    i believe that having Yara/Asha (whatever) try to get Theon at the end of S3… may spawn a whole series of events that will lead to Balon’s eventual death that we’ll get to see on screen…

    I hope we get a good introduction of Dorne and a lot of scenes with the Red viper before he goes….

  89. Macha
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Omar Brown: Dorne:
    I think we might see only The Red Viper and Arrianne in S4 to establish that House. Then Doran in S5 and Quentin? I would dump his whole storyline, despite his cool death, was a waste.

    The way I see it, that whole storyline had one purpose and one purpose alone, to eventually turn the Martells against Dany and ally themselves with Aegon. If the show could reach the same point while avoiding Quentin, I’d be all for it. ;-)

  90. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Just gonna’ copy and paste my reply to a similar thread from Westeros, but with a few minor changes:

    Dragonstone – So Davos has told Stannis about the letter from the Night’s Watch, and they’ve made the decision to sail to The Wall… Not sure how much we’ll see of this segment of the cast early on. I think it’s likely that we get something with them in the first two to three episodes, but after that they disappear until they arrive to save the day for the Watch.

    The Wall – I think the two battles at The Wall will be combined into the larger siege, which will take place over several episodes. Ygritte dies some time during the middle of next season, and Stannis arrives at The Wall the episode after that, so these two large events don’t end up cannibalizing each other. I think all of this occurs before episode eight, and the last three episodes are dedicated to the election of the new Lord Commander. Jon is elected to lead during the season four finale.

    The North – I really don’t know what they’re planning with Yara heading out to rescue Theon. Or how this will effect Theon’s story line, in general. I think they’ll find a way to give Roose Bolton slightly more to do, but I’m not entirely sure what that would be. Some have suggested that he and Walder Frey attend the royal wedding, which I’d have no problem with, but that doesn’t really give them much to actually do in terms of plot movement. I think these story lines will take a back seat to everything else happened, and will only have about as much time dedicated to them (as a whole) as Theon did this entire season (which was approximately half an hour). Also hard to say how much we’ll see of Rickon and Osha, but I’d imagine it would just be a couple of scenes next year to establish they’re still around.

    The North North – Bran and company will almost assuredly meet Coldhands, but I’m not sure how far they take his story line as a whole. And exactly how much of the past are they interested in exploring through Bran, or will the majority of this material take place later, after he’s met Bloodraven. Lot of questions here.

    Iron Islands – The whole scenario with Yara is causing me to re-think how – and indeed, if – we’ll be seeing Victarion and Euron next season. If so, then we’re definitely getting the Kingsmoot, but if not… In that case, it could either be pushed back into season five, or maybe this segment of the story is being cut altogether. “Negative population growth” is something D&D are (rightly) focused on and concerned with. The number of characters is becoming unwieldy at this point, in terms of the amount of time that can be spent with each and how that affects the series as a whole. That doesn’t mean that the story line at the Iron Islands has to be completely cut, but it may be delayed until a number of characters have either been assimilated into the same locations (which has already happened at the end of season three, and will happen again with two major sets of characters) or they’re killed. Hard to say, but casting news will give us a much better idea.

    Dorne – We know we’re getting the Red Viper and Ellaria Sand, but will we be seeing anyone else from Dorne this season? If I had to guess, I’d say we should also be seeing Arianne Martell, as she would act as the perfect gateway character when (or, again, if) the show travels to Dorne proper, in the fifth season. I think that, for budgetary reasons we won’t be meeting Doran, or any of the other characters that will be included on the show from Dorne, in season four. Though it’s likely we’ll hear quite a bit about them.

    Mereen – It’s definitely going to appear, there’s no doubt about that. The question is, what do they do here? I think they realize that Dany needs to be brought down a peg or seven, and it will happen next season. I think we leave Dany at the point where she decides to stay in Mereen and rule, but that several characters from her material in the last book are introduced early to allow for more drama and intrigue. But how does she take the city? Does Barristan fight as her champion? A lot of questions here that will be easier to answer once we’ve seen some of the casting news. In any case, we need to have more quiet moments with this crew next season, and I think we’ll get a fair amount of that. If D&D can manage to make Daario more compelling than he is in the books, it should work just fine.

    Eyrie – Obviously Sansa will make her way here by the middle of next season, and she’ll join Littlefinger, Robin, and Lysa. The season will surely end with “Only Cat” as one of the very last scenes. It’s such a fantastic moment that will re-contextualize everything that has happened so far, and as such, it will happen very near the end of the season.

    Riverlands - We may or may not see the Blackfish next season, but I can guarantee we’ll be seeing a lot of The Hound and Arya. Since this will likely be the last season for the Clegane bros. (we know the two eventually have to duel in the books, so perhaps both deaths are ambiguous, in case the show is able to follow that route), I can see the event at the Inn at the Crossroads happening a bit later in the season. Additional material can be added or transposed from Arya material that was cut from earlier books, and maybe we’ll even see the Brotherhood a few times. Season ends with Arya leaving on a ship for Braavos.

    King’s Landing - A lot of big moments, and a huge concentration of characters in this location. Going into season four we’ll have: Tyrion, Pod, Shae, Bronn, Sansa, Cersei, Tommen, Joffrey, Jaime, Tywin, Qyburn, Brienne, Loras, Margaery, Pycelle, Varys, Oleanna, and any number of other small supporting roles (such as Meryn Trant). We know we’ll see the Purple Wedding, the duel between Oberyn and Gregor, Tywin and Shae dying and Tyrion escaping, but I also think that the character of Oberyn is going to be given a lot more to do than he had in the books, and that the rivalry between Cersei and Margaery will be given a decent amount of focus.

    So, all that said…

    Episode 1: Re-introduction, similar to every other season premiere.
    Episode 2: I think we meet a lot of the new characters here, which is why George is handling it. The Red Viper, Ellaria, Mace, and possibly Ariann and Coldhands.. Also think this is where Balon dies, and that this is likely the last time we see Stannis before he arrives at The Wall.
    Episode 3: The Purple Wedding. The fight between Barristan and the champion of Mereen.
    Episode 4: Siege begins at The Wall; Ygritte dies.
    Episode 5: Jon is arrested and imprisoned. Euron declares himself king and revels the dragon horn and that he knows where there are living dragons. Tyrion’s trial begins.
    Episode 6: Jon sent to treat with Mance; Tyrion’s trial continues; Stannis arrives at The Wall.
    Episode 7: If the Kingsmoot happens in season four, I think it happens around this point. Event at the Inn: Arya gets Needle back. The Red Viper declares that he will fight for Tyrion.
    Episode 8: Duel between the Red Viper and Gregor; Tyrion sentenced to death. Arya leaves The Hound to die (nice symmetry here with the Clegane brothers, I think).
    Episode 9: Tywin and Shae killed by Tyrion.
    Episode 10: Arya leaves for Braavos; Jon is elected the Lord Commander; Dany banishes Jorah and decides to stay in Mereen and learn how to rule because of the various issues she has caused with her campaign; Brienne sent to find Sansa (I believe they’ll keep her in the capitol as long as they can, but admittedly, I’m not sure how they’re going to handle her story); we either learn that Tyrion is heading to Essos or we see him arrive in Pentos where he is greeted by Illyrio; then “Only Cat” which leads straight into Lady Stoneheart.

  91. Bryon
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    I agree that this should most if not be all from the rest of ASoS.

    I do think there could be a few ad ins as well. I think D & D would be wise to give the viewer a little more about Dorne and the Martell’s this comng season.

    We already know the Red Viper is being cast.

    I hope the Iron Isand stuff isn’t skipped over. Getting Introduced to the Crow’s Eye by Season 4 end would be cool.

    Of course we get at least one more wedding too which should be great!

    I hope someone sneaks around calling Sansa Jonquil and allow that story line to play out.

  92. Zack
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    The more I think about it the more I like the idea of the show wrapping up in 7 seasons or thereabouts, instead of being a slave to the text it should find an abbreviated route to the ending outline GRRM has provided.

    I mean because Dany, Bran, Arya, everyone, as a result of the last two books being split, are basically treading water much of the time. It needs jazzing up, punchier pacing, and an evident plan.

    I think Dany can skip Meereen and have all the stuff that happens there take place in Dorne instead. Tyrion can meet her there, etc, as can Quentyn. She’s in a prime position to launch a rescue from the white walkers when that starts going to hell.

    Get Arya to Braavos at the end of S4 and back to Westeros sometime in S6. We need storylines to come together, not be drawn apart…

    people will notice if the show begins to lose focus. They have to plan for that.

  93. Man With No Man
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Bran- Cross paths with wildings (Rattleshirt?), Nights Watch deserters from Craster’s, kill some Wight Walkers with their daggers and then get saved by Cold Hands near seasons end.

  94. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Quowala:

    Also I hope they bring Wyman Manderly forward into season 4 otherwise Davos won’t have much to do which would be a shame as he was great in the latest ep. “The don’t fall out.” Liam Cunningham has elevated book Davos to a whole new level – brilliant actor. Davos doesn’t have any POV’s in the latter half of ASOS but its mentioned in DWD that he spent some time with Selyse and Shireen at Eastwatch by the Sea. They could have him there I suppose but he wouldn’t have much to do. I would prefer if he got dropped of at White Harbour as Stannis is en route to the Wall.

    Most likely they’re going to have Davos go to the Wall with Stannis. No reason for him not to.

    Veltigar: (important for next season because they could use the battle for the shield Island as episode 4 OMFG moment)

    The Shield Islands are exactly the sort of thing that will be cut from the show. First of all, naval stuff is expensive to film. Second, it’s a bunch of tertiary characters attacking some random location full of people the audience has never met.

  95. Selmy
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Some predictions regarding non-book stuff.

    We’ll follow Osha and Rickon’s journey as they’re pursued by Bolton hunters. They’re eventually chased to the coast where Osha decides the safest place for them is Skagos. Ramsay himself could even lead the chase, he could bring Theon around as his new pet on a leash, make him sleep with the dogs etc.

    Yara will head up the narrow sea on her ship but will never make it to the Dreadfort. She’ll run into Stannis’ fleet and be captured by him (much earlier than in the books)

    I really hope we still get to see Roose Bolton even if he doesn’t do very much because just watching Michael Mcelhatton is mesmerizing and chilling.

    I think Brienne will be in King’s Landing for roughly half the season then set off to find Sansa. She’ll meet with Pod at some point and possibly also Gendry. Now she obviously won’t be running into the Brave Companions but will instead run into Locke and his gang! Maybe he could be out searching for Rickon? But she, Pod and Gendry fight and kill them and Brienne kills Locke with Jaime’s sword! Sweet revenge! That would serve as a pretty good finale for her story. Then in season 5 she runs into Lady Stoneheart and then meets with Jaime again. A season without Jaime/ Brienne interaction would be a bad thing!

  96. Daniellica
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    I’m quite perplexed as to how/why everyone is so certain the show will be 7 or 8 seasons, because one producer hinted at 7 and another at 8, when GRRM himself hasn’t ruled out the idea that he might need more than 7 books to finish.

    Granted, producers have different objectives than authors, and what is most likely to occur depends on how well the show is run in the years to come. Producers and networks run shows based on viewers and profits. I imagine next season will have a huge following, but what if season 5 falls apart? There is too much unknown–even by the author–for us to determine the fate of this series. I love to speculate as well, but most likely the show will run the course D&D and the higher powers of HBO determine is best for their particular product.

    As for GRRM and the “hurry up already!” chorus, I’d much rather the show overtake the books than for GRRM to write crap books just to keep pace with production schedules.

  97. Selmy
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Also – I NEED Ser Barristan to do something cool in season 4. I keep telling my non-reader friends how cool he is and they’re not convinced. So I definitely think he should replace Strong Belwas in fighting the Meereen champion.

  98. Ser Bro
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    I’ll be really disappointed if D&D alter the Kingsmoot storyline too much, as I find Euron, Victarion and their entire relationship to be one of the more compelling and rich plot points in the series. With the correct casting, those two roles could breath much-needed life into a show that’s going to need to punch up the book content to appease the ACTION ACTION ACTION television crowd. While understand the concept of streamlining for budget / pacing needs, in my opinion combining these characters would be a mistake and a lost opportunity at best. I also fail to see how it could be done without altering the later story UNLESS they know something we don’t know about how the entire Euron / Victarion storyline ultimately ends, which I imagine George would advise them on beforehand.

    With the being said, some sort of VictEurion hybrid character, if written and cast correctly, could be utterly terrifying. A big huge brute of a man with a creepy eye and a shade habit? Yikes.

  99. Neil
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think they should change shae’s death. The fact that she sleeps with Tywin can’t be changed, for me it’s too important. It shows Tywin for what he really is and wounds Tyrion deeply (everybody he cares about screwed him over). This part of the story should not be changed

  100. TonyGen
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    D&D have said Daniellica they envision this show runnilng about 8 seasons and they specifically said they don’t.want to drag it out and having it running for 10 seasons or more. They will almost certainty pass the books, which they are prepared to do.

  101. Greg
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga,

    I think that the Mountain/Red Viper duel should be Ep 9, which will trick non-readers into thinking that it was the last BIG event of the season. Then, Tyrion kills Shae and Tywin in Ep 10. I don’t know, I think that the Ep 9-as-climax formula has gotten a bit too predictable for non-readers, and I think that would be a good way to throw them off.

  102. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Ser Bro,

    I never cared at all for Victarion and his story about killing his own wife because Euron most probably raped her. Victarion is my least favorite POV character in the books. At least Euron is interesting and has a personality. That is why I would be okay if the show just had Euron and cut Victarion.

  103. Darquemode
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Ser Bro,

    Agreed on the Greyjoys.

    I did not love their chapters as much as some, but they represent a chance to introduce an interesting dynamic to the series.

    I think both brothers add something unique and they do not necessarily need to be combined like some think. Some people thought Edmure and Brynden would be combined and we got both…I think we will get both Greyjoys as well. I say both, because I’m not sore about Damphair. Unless they highlight the Kingsmoot there is little need for him.

    If they do combine Euron and Victarion into Victoreuron he would have a lot of great traits and material to work with! Scary as hell in concept!

  104. mariamb
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Neil:
    I don’t think they should change shae’s death. The fact that she sleeps with Tywin can’t be changed, for me it’s too important. It shows Tywin for what he really is and wounds Tyrion deeply (everybody he cares about screwed him over). This part of the story should not be changed

    I agree. I think that it should happen as it did in the books. Yes…yes, I know that TVShae is different from BookShae. They would have to establish Shae’s motivation for sleeping with Tywin and that could be tricky.

  105. Trilambdas
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    brightroar,

    The fight choreographer in season 1 was the guy who did Troy… But whomever did the Grey Worm, Jorah, and Daario fight, I think, can handle that fight.

  106. Thompsjt1
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Next season will definitely have feast for crows and a dance with dragons in it. Both of those books are of the same timeline. Heck they Already did a dance with dragons really and skipped ahead with the whole Reek thing. I imagine that George will put out the winds of winter before the show cAtches up but he won’t get the last book out on time and the series on tv will do thier own ending or do broad strokes of ending by what George tells them.

  107. Bard
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter: I could see them bringing some of the Dorne stuff from AFFC forwards to S4: Doran at the water gardens with the children for example – maybe introduce RV before he sets off to KL.

    My thoughts exactly. I think it would be interesting to have Doran and Oberyn talk to each ohter before the RV heads to KL. Just start the Dorne storyline early, throw us right into it. The exotic place and the characters down there are more interesting than the storyline anyway.

  108. Mormegil
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Bran: Given they have Dragonglass weapons I’ts pretty clear that they are going to encounter at least one White Walker. Alternatively they may meet some Wights try using the Dragonglass which of course does nothing but are then saved by Coldhands.

    Shae: I’ve seen it suggested that Shae ends up leaving Kings Landing with Sansa. She possibly sees Sansa leaving after the PW follows her but gets captured by Littlefingers men. Sansa saves her life but she is forced to travel to the Vale.

    The only reason I could see this happening is to give Sansa someone to interact with at the Vale who isn’t Littlefinger or mad Lysa.

  109. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica: I’m quite perplexed as to how/why everyone is so certain the show will be 7 or 8 seasons, because one producer hinted at 7 and another at 8, when GRRM himself hasn’t ruled out the idea that he might need more than 7 books to finish.

    The “80 episodes” figure has been given out quite a bit by D&D.

    As for why, ultimately, production realities. I don’t think HBO has ever had a scripted drama run for more than 6 seasons. Network dramas might last a bit longer than that, but the original cast they have under contract will see their arrangements expire at the end of season 7. Renegotiating everyone would probably be enormously expensive, and other aspects of production will continue to cost more as the show ages. 9-10 seasons is just extraordinarily unlikely to ever happen, for cost reasons, even if the cast and crew wanted to do it.

    Mormegil:
    The only reason I could see this happening is to give Sansa someone to interact with at the Vale who isn’t Littlefinger or mad Lysa.

    I think they will want Sansa to have somebody to interact with akin to Shae, but it won’t be Shae (at this point, including the introduction of a gold chain, she’s clearly meeting the same fate as her book character); more likely they’d expand Mya Stone’s role.

  110. pntrlqst
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst:
    I think if they stick exclusively to ASOS material, they’re going to stretch it too thin and it’s not going to have the same effect. Sure, if they were 100% faithful they could probably do it by only covering three chapters per episode, but that’s not how this show is structured and shouldn’t be. If they don’t go that route (they won’t) and still want to have most of ASOS conclusions happen in episodes nine and ten, then we’re in for D&D filler throughout just to ensure that ASOS climaxes are s4′s climaxes.

    I’d rather they adapt the rest of the material as faithful as possible, but still streamlined for compelling television. I don’t want bloat.

    I’d at least get Dany to the point where she has to chain up her dragons and the Sons of the Harpy are starting to become a problem. I’d also get Jon to executing Janos Slynt and the departure of Blackbird. Arya to getting to the House of Black and White.

    If any ASOS is stretched out it should be the King’s Landing stuff.

    401: Red Viper
    Introduction of Red Viper

    402: Growing Strong
    Meereen taunts Dany w/ Crucified slaves, Theon attempts to flee with Kyra(?) but Ramsey captures, Purple Wedding.

    403: Oathkeeper
    Jaime gives Oathkeep to Brienne, Jaime reads over the Kingsguard history book thing.

    404: It Rhymes with Freak
    Siege of Meereen, Attack at Castle Black and Ygritte’s death, Yara attempts to save Theon but he is so broken he refuses (see false escape in 402).

    405: I Will Not March
    Dany decides to stay in Meereen, Motives of different Joffrey suspects explored, Oberyn threesome, Wall siege begins, Arya gets Needle back.

    406: The Horn of Winter
    Battle at the Wall, Stannis deus ex machina.

    407: Kingsmoot
    Tyrion’s trial begins, Shae’s betrayal, Kingsmoot.

    408: Now Say Her Name
    Trial by combat, Arya boards ship for Meereen, Jon elected LC.

    409: Wherever Whores Go
    Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae. Brienne vs Brave Companions(?) and meets Gendry.

    410: Mother Merciless/Fetch Me A Block
    Jon executes Janos Slynt, Blackbird departs, Dany chains up her dragons, Arya enters House of Black and White, Only Cat, Lady Stoneheart

  111. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Bran is the real problem child going forward. He has three chapters left. Period. Three.

    Do you make his quartet recurring characters for the next two or three seasons, and just have them check in one or twice a year? Do you let them sit out an entire season? Do you just make up a ton of new adventures for them? It’s a real issue.

    Beyond that, there’s plenty of stuff left in ASoS to keep the rest of our major characters busy.

    Red Viper shows up. Battle at the Wall. Jon is imprisoned. Purple Wedding shower. Tyrells show up. The Purple Wedding. Arya and the Hound fight at the Inn. Blackfish is besieged at Riverrun. Tyrion’s trial. Jaime becomes Lord Commander. Sansa runs. Tyrion’s trial. Sansa & Petyr visit his old place. Trial By Combat. Brienne sent after the Stark girls. Mereen is captured. Jorah banished. Tommen is king. Jon treats with Mance. Stannis attacks. Lord Commander election. Jon offered Winterfell & Val. Tyrion is freed. Shae. Tywin. Sam schemes with Stannis & Aemon. The Election. The Eyrie. The Bad Woman Flies. Zombie Cat. Queen of Mereen.

    Outside of Bran, I think there’s plenty to keep everyone busy in S4. Dany and Arya might need a little padding, but in the end, I see no reason to poach from FeastDance. Also, that only exacerbates the Bran issue.

  112. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst: heon attempts to flee with Kyra(?) but Ramsey captures

    They already did that, in a sense, at the start of this season. Theon’s Reek now, so he’s not running.

  113. B
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    I just want them to keep the Tywin Shae reveal. I hope they not cut that! They probably will though. I was soooo hoping for a Tywin sex scene ; ) but not only tht, I think it would be great to see that Tywin does have red blood like everyone else. Right now he is presented as above his carnal nature, purely cerebral and strategic. But to have te shock of seeing him engaging in some lusty acts with Shae would be not only impetus for ztyrion to kill him but shocking to the unsullied audience and reveal his weakness. I’m sure many are wondering what his fatal flaw will be. And yeah I’m just hot for Charles Dance, but if any old man can pull this off it’d be him.

    Besides that, I think others may have already raised this point… If they, the show runners, have to streamline the stories it would be good to also have more time with each story line to spread out the material. They can focus on spending more time on two or three story lines per episode. That gives the audience more time to emotionally connect with what is going on more than it would if they continue on this pattern of jumping from story to story scene by scene in one episode. That alone would help fill out the season with substance rather than what we got with Season 2 Dany and Jon Storylines making them boring. We don’t need to see every character in every episode. If they just take thier time and flesh the stories out it will make for a much better season overall.

    Beyond Season four… Once they really get into books 4 and 5, which I know they will combine so that things are not so spread out as they were in the books, that is when they should start making Dany and Jon the main Storylines (since to me they become the main protagonists) and having every other character play into thier Storylines (with Bran connecting both) Does that make sense, not sure if I am saying what I mean in a way that is clear. I think if they show all the other characters are either helping or hindering Dany’s cause or Jon’s Cause that would make the overall story easier to follow. Anyone agree? You’ll probably think I’m crazy.

  114. SerBrynden
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Wow cant believe I just read what was said about Victarion. He is one of the most compelling characters wow. I dont even know what to say. Where do I begin. First and foremost he is the exact embodiment of their House words. “We Do Not Sow”. He is the Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet. Him going to seek Dany for himself and not The Crows Eye. The Crows Eye taking away his men when they conquer The Shield Islands. His dabbling into R’hllor. So many things.

  115. KG
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    I think Mother Merciless (I like that name much better than Stoneheart!) will be the ep 5 or 6 midseason WTF moment.

  116. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    I imagine they’ll turn Shae against Tyrion by convincing her that he did have something to do with Joffrey’s death, which in turn implicated and ‘disappeared’ Sansa. She’ll probably be disgusted with him. They’ll have to work in more, of course. They’ve made her a lot more honest in the show; in the books she’s a bimbo. I like the mix-up, because if we had book Shae then everyone would be wondering what the hell Tyrion was doing even paying attention to her.

    Hopefully we get Euron and Victarion, if only so Ray Stevenson and Madds Mikkelsen can come aboard ;)

    As for Yara’s plotline; in AFFC she mentions travelling to Winterfell to find Theon. Then Balon dies and she returns home for the moot. Me may see that here, with some embellishments and additions.

  117. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Seanachie,

    Providing additional character development for the Reeds, introducing Coldhands and perhaps fleshing him out a bit more; Bran will continue to further develop his abilities; and I’m sure that the writers will eventually start using said abilities to explore more of the history that has, thus far, not been shown in the series.

  118. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga,

    I’m all for that, just pointing out that they’re going to have to make it up out of whole cloth. Bran is done in ASoS, absent in AFFC, and has 3 chapters in ADWD. If you use those three chapters in S4, then what do you do for S5 or S6? My guess is we’ll see more of the trek than we do in the books, maybe let Coldhands have some time to teach Bran, and then…I’m not sure. Bran has a lot of water to tread until the show catches up with TWoW.

  119. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    Seanachie,

    Providing additional character development for the Reeds, introducing Coldhands and perhaps fleshing him out a bit more; Bran will continue to further develop his abilities; and I’m sure that the writers will eventually start using said abilities to explore more of the history that has, thus far, not been shown in the series.

    Somebody linked an interview with Sean Bean that said he’d love to return to the series. Sounds like a great opportunity to utilise Bran’s abilities and give us some ‘flashbacks/insight’ into earlier events. I wish they’d use the deleted scene of Aerys and Brandon Stark somewhere…

  120. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Seonaidh Ceanneidigh,

    I’m with you completely in terms of what I’d like to see, but D&D have stated on multiple occasions that they follow two strict rules: “no flashbacks” and “no one dreams but Bran”.

    I’m not saying they can’t ever change their mind, or even that they haven’t said that to set us up when they change the rules, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting :)

  121. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Seanachie:
    Seonaidh Ceanneidigh,

    I’m with you completely in terms of what I’d like to see, but D&D have stated on multiple occasions that they follow two strict rules:“no flashbacks” and “no one dreams but Bran”.

    I’m not saying they can’t ever change their mind, or even that they haven’t said that to set us up when they change the rules, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting :)

    I heard that too, but I recall Cogman say they’re figuring out how to use Bran’s powers, and they’re exercised in the book by looking through a weirwood tree into the past. So it seems like a rule they’ll be willing to bend, if need be. I wouldn’t mind them going back on their word as they carve out the story… and I really want to see that Aerys scene, since they didn’t put it anywhere on the home release.

  122. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    There have been a lot of interesting ideas put forth here. A few of my own. I’ve been trying to think about how certain characters may be used and about the clues that have been given by the writers in Myhsa and of course the books. I think a lot of ASoS material will encompass the season – particularly the plots at King’s Landing and The Wall – but other plots will start to bleed into AFfC and a bit of ADwD. Not much, mind you. One thing to remember of course is that they tend to vanish as many tertiary characters as possible, which presents interesting thoughts on just what the hell is going to happen to Gendry and Bronn, who might be used in capacities otherwise unknown.

    King’s Landing – This plays out pretty much as expected, as it does in the 2nd half of Storm of Swords. The Purple Wedding around Ep 3 (I wouldn’t be surprised if Ep 2, though honestly? You could throw it as a shocker in the premiere to wake everyone’s asses up. But I still see it in Ep 2-3). Oberyn Martell, Mace Tyrell and Ellaria Sand all show up in the first episode. Brienne is arrested early in the season for her “safety,” thus preventing her from watching over Sansa Stark. After PW, when she disappears, Jaime releases Brienne to find her. Cersei, of course, is starting to go completely crazy, and we see the elevation of Tommen to the throne, Jaime’s decree that he’ll stay on as a Kingsguard, and Tywin’s harsh response: “Very well, Knight of the Kingsguard. Do your duty.” The Oberyn/Mountain battle is a climactic Ep9, and in the last Ep of the season, Tyrion slaps his brother, kills Shae (yes, this is going to happen; they’re focused on creating this wedge), and his father, and is last viewed disappearing across the Narrow Sea, with Varys.

    The Wall - — This one is also fairly linear, though with some other complications. The Thenn and the skirmish fairly early in the season, with the siege of Castle Black coming later in the year — providing us a mid-season climax around the 6th or 7th episode and where we discover the death of Ygritte. Jon treats with Mance later on, and the Stannis attack comes after that. The problematic part of this is that it strands Stannis and Davos on a boat in the Narrow Sea for a long, long time. And no matter how interesting you make a hunt for more ships (and no matter how much Salladhor Saan we get, PLEASE MORE SALLADHOR SAAN!), they may elect to move Stannis to the Wall even more quickly, have Jon arrested at the Wall earlier, and have Stannis come in more quickly as well. Otherwise, as said, what do Davos/Stannis/Melisandre do for 6 episodes? Obviously the material in ADwD is rich enough to give Stannis a leading role in Season 5 and beyond, but next year? I don’t know.

    Arya/The Hound — The Tickler “How many??” scene is gone, but Polliver has Needle. And Arya slowly learning to become more of a killer is definitely part of all this. We’ll see Polliver get his, and the injuries to Sandor Clegane, too.

    The Riverlands – Sure, the Blackfish can be seen hacking through some hapless bastards here and there. And I think a cold open with Lady Stoneheart – or an Episode 1 closer of Lady Stoneheart – would really kick ass. I don’t think they’ll eliminate this. But we’ll see it very judiciously.

    Rickon/Osha — Sending them to the Umbers is an interesting idea. And the fact that Ramsey knows of the existence of the two boys means he’ll be searching for them, sending riders out from the Dreadfort, for sure. Creates a lot of opportunities for conflict, once again; raises the chances of us seeing the Greatjon or some other Umber, and points to Osha on the run at the end of the season.

    Yara Greyjoy — If they’re smart, Theon will be offscreen a lot. But Yara’s journey is an interesting one, and we’ve got a lot of plot that I don’t think we’ll see Balon Greyjoy dying until the end of the season, with the Kingsmoot in Season 5 (and I think they’ll chop the Damphair out of there and keep Euron and Victarion)

    Sansa/Littlefinger – I think they keep Baelish off screen until PW, when he’s out on a ship, for sure. And then she goes with him to the Eyrie, and the supremely creepy Lysa Arryn shows up again (YAY!) Lysa killed (ep 8 or 9)

    Daenerys — I think she gets to Meereen this year, and we see the dead children, we hear the reports of the horror in Astapor, and Danys decides to see things through in Meereen for a bit. I think we’ll have to have her in Meereen for 2 seasons.

    Brienne — She’ll be let go by Jaime in Ep 4 or so, and then her wanderings begin. I think they lose Cracklaw Point, Dick Crabbe and most of those other jokers and keep her with Podrick Payne, in another of the show’s great “throw two different people together and see what happens” kind of thing.

    Bronn — An innovative idea here would be to have him strike up a friendship with and commiserate with Ellaria Sand. Bronn mourns the presumed death of Tyrion, Ellaria the loss of the Red Viper. And they travel south, because she needs a captain of the guard in Dorne (for Season 5). Thus, of course, eliminating Areo Hotah, who really isn’t all that important.

    The real question is, where is everyone in Episode 10 of Season 4? What are the closing scenes??

    –Arya boards a ship to Braavos, uses the coin, Jaqen H’ghar. “Valar Morghulis.”

    –Sansa ends in the Eyrie, hair dyed black, arms around Robyn Arryn suffering from the shaking sickness with his mother now dead, realizing she’s traded an awful situation for a slightly-less-awful situation-but-still-involves-creepy-as-hell-Littlefinger.

    –Brienne ends on the Quiet Isle, having a conversation with Elder Brother. “Sandor Clegane is at rest.” She leaves with Podrick.

    –Yara on a ship heading back to Pyke, with Balon dead. Balon’s death seen in this episode. We get a lot of death in Ep 10.

    –A Meereenese man brings Danys bones of a small girl, his daughter, burned and devoured by Drogon.

    –Osha and Rickon board a ship in the far north, fleeing from Ramsey Bolton.

    –Bronn and Ellaria Sand arrive in Dorne with Oberyn’s body.

    –Jon is elected Lord Commander.

    –Bran finds the Greenseer. “I’m broken…can you fix my legs.”

    –Tywin’s death is in Ep 10, not 9. Tyrion leaves, with Varys, across the Narrow Sea.

  123. JoshT
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    I really really hope they cut Mereen. Does Dany really need to take ANOTHER slave city and decide to stay? She could just decide to stay in Yunkai and have her go to war with Astapor. Would save a lot of screentime and progress her storyline further while cutting out a lot of fat.

  124. Summer Is Coming
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    This is my take, and only for the KL plot and what happens there (and this is especially for those who say that the asos material will be finished in the first half of the season) Have a nice read!

    31: Tyrion and Tywin discuss the implications of the arrival of the Martells. Tyrion welcomes the dornish host. Intoduction of Oberyn and Arianne Martell. KL characters meet them. Different interactions between characters. Varys meets Qyburn. Olenna gives Sansa the hairnet. Brienne is imprisoned for treason. Jaime argues against it. Jaime-Cersei awkwardness.

    32: Oberyn character development. Oberyn-Cersei scene, tries to seduce her. Arianne-Joffrey; she flirts with him; Marg is present; Arianne-Margaery rivalry ->Dorne-Reach background. Mace Tyrell comes to KL. Jaime takes the white again as LC of the KG. Visits Brienne in his armour.

    33: Wedding of Joffrey and Margaery. The Tyrion – Joffrey scene. Tyrion realises the dagger belonged to Joffrey. Oberyn –Mace scene. Olenna-Sansa scene-> Olenna brushes gently her hair taking the amethyst. Joffrey insults Sansa the last time. Joffrey dies. Cersei orders Tyrion’s arrest. Tywin asks Jaime to renounce the KG and to be his heir. They argue at the wedding.

    34: Starts immediatly afterwards. Cersei asks for Sansa. She escapes with help from LF, wich reveals that he orchestrated Joffrey’s death, and implies about a complice. The Tyrells talk about the new development= Marg is to marry the new king, and Loras to join the Kingsguard to protect her from Cersei. Tyrion is in prison. Tywin orders a trial for his son.

    35: Tyrion is brought before the judges: Tywin, Mace and Oberyn. Cersei and Jaime fight and fuck in the Sept. Tommen is to be crowned king, and Margaery is to marry him. Brienne and Tyrion scene in prison. Oberyn questions Varys about his involvement in the sack of Kl; Varys tells him about Pycelle advising the king to open the gates.

    36: Tyrion-Oberyn discussion. His history, his sister, queen Elia. Tyrion reveals his father’s involvement in her and her children’s death. Talk about Aegon. Cersei sleeps with Oberyn so that he votes against Tyrion at the trial. Loras-Brienne-Margaery scene in prison about Renly. Jaime and Loras scene about the KG.

    37: Tyrion’s trial. Varys and Shae confess against him and Bronn refuses to fight for him. Cersei mocks him. Tyrion’s breakdown. Oberyn offers to be his champion to everyone’s shock.

    38: The duel between the Red Viper and the Mountain. Oberyn’s death. Tyrion being brought back to prison. Everything seems lost for him. Arianne flees KL.

    39: Jaime and Varys help Tyrion escape. Jaime’s confession, Tyrion’s anger and lies. Varys’s explanation. Tyrion kills Shae and Tywin.

    40: Tyrion arrives in Pentos with Varys. They have dinner with Illyrio. He and Varys tell Tyrion to serve the dragon with 3 heads. Jaime releases Brienne and gives him his sword. Cersei realises that all the power is in her hands. Names Qyburn Master of Whisperers. Asks for the Mountain. Olenna and Marg scene ->reveal to the audience that they poisoned Joffrey. Jaime and Cersei realise is over between them.

    There may be some other stuff I missed, but this, S4, will be a juicy one for sure and I only got into the affc/adwd material only in the finale. Hope to make this stuff for the Wall plot also, and for the others as well!

  125. Lars
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Seanachie:
    Bran is the real problem child going forward.He has three chapters left. Period.Three.

    Do you make his quartet recurring characters for the next two or three seasons, and just have them check in one or twice a year?Do you let them sit out an entire season?Do you just make up a ton of new adventures for them?It’s a real issue.

    I don’t think it is as much of an issue – due to Bran’s plot being so separated. And thanks to his temporal greenseeing ability, he no longer has to be that connected to the other plot threads. They could finish his material in season 4, have him essentially become one of the old gods, and not show him for a season or two.

    Once Bran’s part in the presumed end-game, he will be so changed that his aging won’t matter. Have him intervene as Bran-ex-machina, or whatever.

  126. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Seonaidh Ceanneidigh,

    Yeah, that’s totally a loophole you could get away with: “this isn’t a flashback, this is Bran warging into the past, they’re completely different things” :)

  127. Bookill
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Conan Stevens has to come back as The Mountain. Ian Whyte just doesn’t cut it.

  128. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Lars,

    I’m not even really worried about him aging or anything like that, although I know that’s a concern for others. I’m more worried about what you do with him for the actor to earn his paycheck over the next two or three years. I like you’re ideas, but you’re making several big jumps from what has actually occurred in the released saga to date. Maybe D&D have pages from GRRM with info about what happens to Bran going forward, but if you use that next year your run into the problem of major plot points playing out on screen before people are able to read them from the source.

  129. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    First, remember that Davos isn’t with Stannis when he goes North. Second, no one says Stannis has to leave in Ep1. In fact, Davos explicitly suggests that he needs to recruit new people to help Stannis at the Wall. My guess is that some combination of the Dragonstone trio spends the first half of the season recruiting spurned lords from the Vale and North on their slow trek to the Wall.

  130. Matt
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    They gotta end the BwoB storyline with Cat’s resurrection at the end of Episode 1, have the scene start from Nymeria’s perspective, seeing the body in the river, then cut to Thoros and Beric pulling her out, him sacrificing himself etc and her awakening and screaming. THEN cut to Arya opening her eyes exactly the same as Bran in Season 1 and end the episode. Then for the rest of season 4 have their be rumours of the “Stark Curse” and have characters come upon hung Frey and Lannister men, and only bring Stoneheart back maybe at the end of Season 4 or in Season 5.

  131. Alex Dubrovsky
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Something I wrote for another forum:

    Bran has already crossed the Wall, meaning whatever scenes he will have in S4 will be from ADWD or invented.
    Arya is almost at the end of her Westerosi journey, so she will move to Braavos very early in S4.
    Jaime and Brienne are already in Kings Landing, so Brienne might go on her pointless travel in the Riverlands.
    Dany has conquered Yunkai, and I don’t see the showrunners stretching the conquering of Mereen for entire season, so she will have part of ADWD scenes (Gods save us from those scenes).
    Stannis has already decided to move to the North, so the battle of Castle Black won’t probably be the big scene of episode 9, but will take place much earlier.
    I’d be very surprised to see Joffrey surviving past the second episode, so the bulk of Tyrion’s stuff for the next season will probably be his trial. The episode 9 shocking event will probably be Tywin’s murder and episode 10 will end with Tyrion arriving in Pentos.
    Depending on when Stannis arrives at the Wall, Jon’s stuff for S4 will probably end with him becoming Lord Commander or with him letting the remnants of the wildling army cross the Wall. Depending on that, Sam will either spend the entire season in Castle Black or will start his boat trip in the final episode.
    If PW takes place early in the season, some of Sansa’s stuff will come from AFFC.
    Since Theon became Reek in the season finale and we finally found out what every book reader already knew about the “mysterious boy”, his entire story in S4 will be from ADWD. Not sure where will it end, but probably before just before Ramsay’s wedding to fake Arya.
    Hopefully no Dorne. Ever.

  132. Turri
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    King’s Landing, the Wall and the Eyrie have powerful stories and strong structures in the rest of ASOS. I think pretty much every other plot will have to end up in the later books and find a nice ending point that isn’t too far ahead chronologically. If you count up chapters by timeline, I would assume something like 25 left in ASOS, plus 10 AFFC (Greyjoys, Brienne, maybe Arya) and 10 ADWD (Bran, Dany, Theon, maybe Davos).

    However, having a lot of characters still living that might become important again later is something of a wildcard, if they decide to invent some stuff for Rickon, Blackfish, Stoneheart, Gendry, Roose etc., they can flesh out ASOS out quite a bit. So a lot depends on the long-term plan, which in turn depends on GRRM’s final plans, and we can’t really discuss this without the information the showrunners hopefully have.

  133. Summer Is Coming
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    There is a lot a talk about Bran and his story in S4, S5 and onwards.
    First of all, he only needs to appear in 4, 5 max 6 ep per season.

    S4: Coldhands plot momentum; meeting him in the first episode of the season Bran appears in. With his flocks of ravens. He tells them he wants to help them to reach the 3 eyed crow.
    Meera distrust in him, Jojen and Bran more power info from them, Coldhands reveal as wight with a conscience and a soul. More about him than in the books maybe, some foreshadowing. More stories, like the one with the Harrenhall tourney. Plus a couple more scenes in their journey, with them starving, freezing -> a lot of sympathy for them.
    Their part in the season ends with them arriving at the cave, the attack of the weights ( and one or two WW?) and the revelation of the Children of the Forest! Awesome!

    S5: could deal from then on to meeting Bloodraven, and that whole story. Bran learning to enter the trees. (Sean Bean cameo, pls?) His association with the Old Gods.

    Now, if S5 and 6 are to be made from affc/adwd -> then is nothing more for Bran for S6. But I propose this. Have Bran in this season visit the other parties, like Stannis, Jon, Reek, Davos, Melisandre (this one will be thrill; imagine Mel’s horror as she will see his face in the tree and believe he is the Great Other) within the trees. Also make him go into the history, an excellent form of flashback to see about Lyanna and stuff. By this season things must take a shape, not a clear one (like Jon’s parents), but allusions about it. Bran can pretty much become in this season (6) the glue that binds most of the stories.

  134. Lars
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Seanachie:
    Lars,

    I’m not even really worried about him aging or anything like that, although I know that’s a concern for others.I’m more worried about what you do with him for the actor to earn his paycheck over the next two or three years.I like you’re ideas, but you’re making several big jumps from what has actually occurred in the released saga to date.Maybe D&D have pages from GRRM with info about what happens to Bran going forward, but if you use that next year your run into the problem of major plot points playing out on screen before people are able to read them from the source.

    That ship will sail soon anyway. They *are* going to pass the books. The question is not IF, but WHEN.

    And as far as Bran goes, where he ends in ADWD is probably a decent pause point for that story. Let it rest for two seasons, while hearing whispers of Bran’s voice in the trees. If the actor cannot come back, recast him.

  135. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who thinks Tywin’s death will happen in episode 10, has not been paying attention. Climactic stuff happens in episode 9, with episode 10 as more of a reaction episode that both concludes arcs and prepares you for the next season.

    There will only be one Greyjoy uncle introduced, otherwise they would have introduced or talked about one of them by now.

    I would not be surprised if they combine the Red Viper and his brother. The simple way to do this, is to not kill off the Red Viper after the fight, but instead leave him crippled or in ill health.

  136. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    I want to see Sansa take a bigger role in assassinating Joffrey. I want her to know what she’s doing — maybe not right away, but by the time she gets to the feast. The Tyrells can still give her the poison, but I want her to put it in the glass herself.

    They could do it. She’s older and smarter on the show. She’s angrier. She’s more active. She’s already tried to get him killed at least once. And it would be awesome.

  137. Lars
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Magnar of Thenn:
    Anyone who thinks Tywin’s death will happen in episode 10, has not been paying attention.Climactic stuff happens in episode 9, with episode 10 as more of a reaction episode that both concludes arcs and prepares you for the next season.

    We (if I may be so presumptuous) have been paying attention. We just hope that D&D keep things fresh by shifting around the major events – so they won’t just fall in episode 9. It is becoming very predictable.

    Besides, big stuff HAS happened in episode 10. Drogo’s death. Birth of dragons. It is only the finales of season 2 and 3 that have drifted towards less momentous events.

  138. Seanachie
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Lars,

    I’m holding out hope that they don’t pass the books until the ship actually goes down. If S4 is 90% material from ASoS, then I think S5 & S6 are the huge combined FeastDance story. If that happens, then GRRM has until the end of 2016 to finish TWoW so that it’s available for D&D to start plotting S7. That’s a long time.

    My hope is he’s able to finish TWoW by the end of 2014, and then even if it takes him until the end of 2017 to finish the draft of ADoS, D&D can write and shoot whatever season we’re on at that point, and it can sit in the can until after the last book comes out.

    This is what I want to happen, and you can’t kill my dream :)

  139. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    I could also see Tyrion and Jorah both ending up in Bravos, instead of Pentos. It would mean less jumping around.

  140. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Lars: We (if I may be so presumptuous) have been paying attention. We just hope that D&D keep things fresh by shifting around the major events – so they won’t just fall in episode 9. It is becoming very predictable.

    I disagree. Episode 9 has become must see tv, and HBO likes it that way.

  141. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Ser Bro,

    I never cared at all for Victarion and his story about killing his own wife because Euron most probably raped her. Victarionis my least favorite POV character in the books. At least Euron is interesting and has a personality. That is why I would be okay if the show just had Euron and cut Victarion.

    If Yara gets back in time, she could take Victarion’s place. We need *someone* who’s a powerful Ironborn figure to oppose Euron, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be Victarion.

  142. dizzy
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    I’m thinking that Quaithe and the Warlocks will come back into play with Dany in Mereen to keep things interesting. They could expand more on the prophecy stuff that was omitted from HoTU.
    I hope they keep Euron and Victarion as separate characters. You can probably get by with omitting Aaron Greyjoy. I guess only George can answer if that would screw things up too much if they did that.

  143. VARGOAT
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Why does everybody think D&D ned to save screentime now? I agree it was necesary the first two seasons but since the 3rd book was divided in to seasons and since george rr martin is going to need about a trillion decades to finish his books there are no reasons to cut important events like the kingsmoot. I guess D&D are about to change everything a lot like they always do but skip a major plottwist that would do great on television would be more than unlikely. These two bloggers may be experts on GRRM but it seems to me that they do not know much about producing TV-shows…

  144. Easteros bunny
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I just want to see the midget pig jousting at joffs wedding!!!!

  145. Vikestad
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Magnar of Thenn,

    Both greyjoy brothers will be cast. Damphair is the only axed character. They have been mentioned. Season 1 with Theon and Tyrion, and in the history and lore extras.

  146. VARGOAT
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Seanachie,

    you really touched me! i´ll dream with you

  147. Lars
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Magnar of Thenn: I disagree.Episode 9 has become must see tv, and HBO likes it that way.

    Episode 9 does not get the highest rating. HBO cares about making the *entire show* must-see TV. And GOT has built up a reputation for shocking plot-twists. Putting them all in episode 9 makes it… less shocking.

    Nobody objects to episode 9 being the dramatic peak of the season. All that most of us want is that there will be smaller shocks and significant twists in other episodes.

  148. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    SerCountryFriedSteak:
    Since I think D&D are 50% genius / 50% flubbing; here’s what I’d do:

    JAIME / BRIENNE – Brienne opens season in cell (Loras’ demands) After the wedding, Jaime gets her out. They leave King’s Landing together (with Pod) to go hunt for Sansa.Sad that Jaime doesn’t talk to Tyrion in the secret tunnels, but he’ll tell Tyrion about Tysha earlier in season.

    Jaime actually does have stuff to do in AFFC, though. He’s presiding over the mop-up in the Riverlands and rescuing Edmure and getting Riverrun to surrender and figuring out the truth about Cersei and Lancel and… basically doing all of this important stuff that you couldn’t skip, unless you were planning to skip half the book.

    Also, there wouldn’t really be much need for LS to get Brienne to betray Jaime if Jaime was with her at the time. And I’m sorry, but Jaime would have gotten Brienne killed about twice on her trip, unless he’s a lot better with his left hand than I think he is.

  149. KG
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Minor-ish characters I hope they don’t cut, but I’m not going to freak out if they do:

    Rodrik Harlaw
    Hyle Hunt

  150. Vikestad
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    VARGOAT,

    Pretty silly honestly. If book purists had their say the show would be a flop. I think it’s them who have no idea on how a TV show is made. There are people who have said that they would rather have two seasons identical to the books even if it would result in cancellation. Opinions like that are worthless basically.

  151. Sean C.
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    VARGOAT: but since the 3rd book was divided in to seasons and since george rr martin is going to need about a trillion decades to finish his books

    That’s not a consideration. They are not pacing the show to give Martin time to finish. At the pace Martin is going, it’s impossible for him to ever outpace the show at this point. The show will be wrapping up circa 2017 or 2018.

  152. Bowl of Brown
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    My best guess at the official synopses:

    Episode 1: Jon recovers from his wounds; Jaime adjusts to life in King’s Landing; Arya and the Hound cross the Trident; Tyrion receives new guests.

    Episode 2: Bran learns about a famous knight; Mance prepares for war; Daenerys receives a proposal from an unlikely suitor; Stannis rallies his supporters.

    Episode 3: Tyrion and Sansa give Joffrey a gift; Ramsay and Reek go on a hunt; the Night’s Watch regroups; Loras confronts Brienne.

    Episode 4: King’s Landing celebrates the wedding of Joffrey Baratheon and Margaery Tyrell; Sansa and the Queen of Thorns reconnect; Tyrion entertains the court.

    Episode 5: Jon is tested; Stannis sends Davos on a mission; Bran journeys further North; Daenerys learns of a betrayal; Jaime and Brienne honor their oaths.

    Episode 6: Tyrion witnesses the limits of loyalty and love; Arya and the Hound take refuge; the Prince of the Iron Islands returns to Moat Cailin; Sansa begins a new life.

    Episode 7: Daenerys deals with new threats; Jon and Sam fortify the Wall in preparation for Mance’s attack; Bran encounters a mysterious rider; Davos makes a deal; Tyrion gains an unlikely ally.

    Episode 8: Tyrion is judged before gods and men; the Night’s Watch receives reinforcements; Ramsay meets his bride; the King of the Iron Islands sets sail to pay the iron price; Arya negotiates in Saltpans; Sansa learns a secret.

    Episode 9: Jon proves his loyalty; Varys takes a gamble; Brienne makes a decision; Tyrion pays his debts.

    Episode 10: Daenerys receives a petition; the Night’s Watch elects a new Lord Commander; Arya meets an old man; Bran and his friends fight for survival; Tyrion discusses his future with his host.

  153. Frost Nocturne
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    The Wall and Beyond:

    Episode 1 – Jon recovers, and warns Maester Aemon of Mance’s plans. Donal Noye questions why Jon was wearing the sheepskin clothes of the Wildlings, Jon informs them of Quorin’s command, but also tells them about Ygritte.

    Episode 2: Mance sends the Magnar and his Thenns over the Wall to meet up with Tormund and crew; Bran and Co. explore an abandoned village and tell stories(Tourney at Harrenhal, please!);The NW prepares Castle Black for Battle.

    Episode 4: The Wildlings attack from the South; Jon and the NW defend Castle Black; Jon discovers Ygritte in the aftermath.

    Episode 5: Bran and Co. are attacked by a group of wights, but are saved by Coldhands; Mance is told that the Thenns were defeated South of the Wall and prepares to attack the Wall even though he lost the element of surprise.

    Episode 6: The NW recovers from the Battle at Castle Black, only to discover Mance’s army is amassed right outside the Wall; Coldhands discusses Bran’s journey and where he is headed.

    Episode 7: Mance’s army attacks the Wall; Jon leads the defense and is able to hold off Mance’s army; Janos Slynt and Ser Aliser arrive and arrest Jon.

    Episode 8: Jon is interrogated and is told he must kill Mance Rayder to prove his loyalty to the NW.

    Episode 9: Jon is sent to treat with Mance and kill him; Stannis and his men arrive just in time to save Jon and crush Mance’s army.

    Episode 10: Bran and Co. are surrounded by Wights and White Walkers, they barely manage to escape, with the help of the Children of the Forest;Stannis offers to legitimize Jon as a Stark and name him Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North; Jon is elected as Lord Commander and refuses Stannis’ offer, the Wall is now his.

    This is perfect. Though two episodes to cover the NW election is probably necessary if we’re going to see Sam speaking with Cotter Pyke and Dennis Mallister along with at least two Stannis scenes, considering the finale is usually two scenes max per storyline.

  154. KG
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Vikestad,

    I want Tom Baker as Aeron :/

  155. Butterbumps
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    Yes. Yes. Yes!!!!!

  156. lady
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    I just don’t want them to put off the Battle at Castle Black till episode 9 just because they are so locked into episode 9 being a huge went (I mean what is their plan for season 5.9?)
    I woul prefer it at episode 7ish. And give us 3 episodes with Stannis/Jon interactions.

  157. Mormegil
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    JoshT:
    I really really hope they cut Mereen. Does Dany really need to take ANOTHER slave city and decide to stay? She could just decide to stay in Yunkai and have her go to war with Astapor. Would save a lot of screentime and progress her storyline further while cutting out a lot of fat.

    But we’ve already seen her tell the Yunkai that if they let their slaves go free she’ll leave the city alone.

    It’s not going to look too good if she then turns around and says she’s changed her mind and takes over the city anyway.

  158. mead
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    How can Stannis at the Wall be a deux ex machina? It’s been pretty heavily telegraphed so far.

  159. WompWomp
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.: That’s not a consideration.They are not pacing the show to give Martin time to finish.At the pace Martin is going, it’s impossible for him to ever outpace the show at this point.The show will be wrapping up circa 2017 or 2018.

    All the better for it. I’m of the opinion the extra years have done nothing for his writing judging by the last two books. No matter how passionately their apologists defend them, AFFC/ADWD were awfully thumb-twiddling as a whole. I didn’t expect ASOS 2, but I certainly didn’t expect the unadventures of everybody. The few great moments could not make up for the lagging whole.

  160. WompWomp
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    mead:
    pntrlqst,

    How can Stannis at the Wall be a deux ex machina? It’s been pretty heavily telegraphed so far.

    Unlike Theon, he should probably disappear until the late season in the show.

  161. WompWomp
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    mead:
    pntrlqst,

    How can Stannis at the Wall be a deux ex machina? It’s been pretty heavily telegraphed so far.

    Unlike Theon, he should probably disappear until the late season in the show. Half the impact of his appearance is the sheer shock of the deus ex machina effect.

  162. Ser Justin
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown,

    Very well thought out and written.

  163. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Mormegil: But we’ve already seen her tell the Yunkai that if they let their slaves go free she’ll leave the city alone.

    It’s not going to look too good if she then turns around and says she’s changed her mind and takes over the city anyway.

    The Yunkish said no, actually. That’s why Jorah and Grey Worm and Daario had to sneak in. They opened the city gates, Trojan Horse style, and the rest of Dany’s army came in and took over by force.

    It’s confusing, though, because they couldn’t show the battle itself. Out of cash, I guess.

  164. Mike Chair
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    The Season 4 KL arc pretty much will track the plot of Moonstruck.

    Jamie arrives at KL and finds Cersie engaged to Loras. There is bad blood between Jamie and Joffrey because Jamie blames Joffrey for his maiming and Cersie’s betrothal. Thus, Jamie refuses to attend Joffery’s wedding. Margaery visits Jamie to convince him otherwise. “I LOST MY HAND! I LOST MY BRIDE! JOFFREY HAS HIS HAND! JOFFREY HAS HIS BRIDE!” Jamie explains to Margaery, who is enraptured by his masculinity. Then, Jamie has sex with Margaery and she falls in love with him, but Joffrey has no clue because he’s at the deathbed Cersei who soon miraculously recovers.

    Later, Jamie and Margaery plan to spill the beans to Joffrey. In a shocking plot twist, Joffery beats them to the punch, “I can’t marry you,” Joffrey says to Margaery. “If I marry you, my mother will die!”

    Jamie says to Joffrey, “You’re the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms and she’s still running your life!” Then, Jamie proposes to Margaery in front of them all. Joffrey is not offended, finally surrendering to his Oedipus complex.

    Grand Master Pycelle says, “I’m so confused” and convinces Tywin that he must pay for the wedding. “You break your house through pride,” Pycelle says. Everyone lives happily ever after.

    Would that it were. But alas, KL ain’t Brooklyn Heights. Ti Amo. Che bella luna!

  165. We do not Hodor
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    I don’t have much more to add to the links posted. I think they are pretty close. I’ll just post rough time tables for the various “arcs”.

    King’s Landing: Purple Wedding early. Episode 2 seems too soon, but they do need time to focus on Tyrion’s imprisonment, trial and escape as well as Sansa’s escape. Episode 9 is always a “big one” so I think we get Tyrion shooting Tywin, or Littlefinger offing Lysa at the end of 9. Maybe even a certain Lady Stoneheart…

    Brienne will probably be sent off with Pod around mid season. I expect they will add tension between her and Cersei and her and Loras, then the events of the PW causing Jaime to see the benefit of sending her away for her own safety and we can start the “have you seen my sister? A maid of 3 and ten” quotes. :)

    I am admittedly stumped on most of the Riverlands and Winterfel plotlines. These could and likely will all be invented to fit the show.

    At the wall, we should get Jon’s recovery, Mance’s arrival, Stannis’s arrival and I fully expect the season finale to be Jon being elected Lord Commander. I think Yggritte is alone on the south side of the wall while Tormund went back over to report to Mance. We still have her fate to fit in as well.

    Bran will travel North and North and meet Coldhands.

    I don’t know where they go with Arya and the Hound. No Braavos would be disappointing as would no scene with her leaving the Hound and I am hoping we still get a needle reunion. I really enjoy their journey, so I am ok with the show keeping them together a while longer.

    I thought they could pull the Kings Moot forward into this season. It cuts the amount of content needed for books four and five into about two seasons worth of material (if that). I kind of like the idea of Yara’s fleet being taken by Stannis’s fleet. That resolves a variant plotline into something that closely resembles the net effect from the book. Plus, gets Yara (and the actress that plays her) more opportunity a la Gendry from this season.

    That brings us to Gendry. No mention of him. Maybe Brienne and Pod bump into him during their travels and he plays the part of Ser Hyle? If he can take the Edric Storm role, why not?

    Just my two cents. I can’t get here fast enough. Unless book 6 releases. Then I am ok with waiting. :)

    I just realized I forgot Dany…

    I think her story will be somewhat uneventful in season 4, especially when compared to season 3. I hope for a Barristan the Bold defeating the champion of Meereen since we have been robbed of Strong Belwas. Then we probably get the reveal of Jorah’s betrayal and his dismissal plus some naked time with Daario. Would be nice if they could slip Hizdeah or however you spell it in at the end of the season. What a great point to leave her hanging on.

  166. boned
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    superdeluxe,

    Hopefully we get to see her revived on 1st episode or 2. The finale happened 1 day after the red wedding, when you see davos smuggling gendry it’s like 1 day after it. Hopefully they introduce people’s family when she hangs em

  167. sunspear
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    I think they will need to dip into the beginnings of AFFC and ADWD to fill out the season. I want the whole show to last 8 seasons, so they shouldn’t go to far. My favored endpoints would be:

    The Wall: Jon is elected lord commander
    KL: Cersei discovers Tywins body. Also, Varys should go to Pentos with Tyrion to give Conleth Hill something to do.
    Arya: In Braavos, meeting the Kindly man.
    Sansa: Lysa gets shoved out the Moondoor.
    Daenerys:Introduce the major players in Meereen, end on her locking up her dragons.
    Ironborn: The Kingsmoot
    Theon: End with Roose Bolton taking Moat Cailin. They should also expand the role of fake Arya to give Roose something to due.
    Bran:End it with him meeting Blood Raven. They should basically cover his first two ADWD chapters and spend most of his plot arc setting up the Children of the Forest.

  168. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    i definitely think that in a lot of storylines there is enough to carry onto the end of asos
    tyrion’s story arc, if they push the PW to episode 3 or 4, can definitely last an entire season, in the first couple of episodes you’ve got a lot of sub plot going on for him, with oberyn, shae, sansa, and also maybe with tywin and joffrey, and he’ll probably share a scene or two with jaime before the wedding anyway. Then you can have him in a cell for a couple of episodes, as arrangements for his trial are made and he tries to come up with witnesses, you could leave him out for one episode, as we’ve seen this season, not everyone needs to be in all 10 episodes then you can have the trial for a couple of episodes, perhaps episode 7 being a couple of irrelevant KL characters (Pycelle, etc) testifying against him, then in episode 8 shae and varys, ending with tyrion announcing oberyn will be his champion in a trial by combat. Episode 9 Oberyn vs The Mountain, Episode 10 Killing Tywin and Shae and his escape. Thats a storyline that will have plenty in it, it doesnt need to add bits of Dance into it.
    Jon also has more than enough to do, they can stretch out the battle at the wall over 2 0r 3 episodes (just around 5 minute clips to not be too harsh on the budget) as well as the attack from the south being the end of episode 3 or 4. You can leave him out in the PW episode, that gives you nine episodes. Add in Stannis offer episode 8 or 9 then the election of the LC episode 10, like Tyrion this arc has a lot to it.
    Danaerys has little bit less, but they could probably stretch it out long enough so that the attack on Meereen, as well as the banishing of ser jorah (since barristan wont tell dany like he does in the books presumably, they could find a new way to do this that adds more stuff to this storyline) and also a subplot with Daario would take a lot of the time of the story too. Between all that you could probably come up will a seasons worth, perhaps ending it with her having sex with daario or deciding to stay in Meereen or both
    Jaime doesnt have that much going on either but again he should have enough sub plot with him to get him through the season. He has a growing rift between him and cersei and with tywin too to deal with, his work as LC of the Kingsguard, the Brienne subplot and fake arya, and i also think that they could add in locke being sent to KL by Roose Bolton under the pretext of collecting fake arya, but really so that Tywin can capture him and get what happened to vargo hoat in the books at harrenhal to happen in KL so the viewers are able to see him dying. He could also have a scene with jaime too at some point. I’ll be interested to see if they have jaime not present at the PW for whatever reason, because the fact that he wasnt there when joffrey died is integral to the bits he has with the KG in aSoS
    Other plotlines like Sansa and Arya may have to be slowed down a bit mid season, particularly with arya (i believe bryan cogman even said that Arya’s plotline next season will be slowed down a bit, but everything from the books will be still there, so this leads me to believe that Arya catches a ship episode 10) but the writers could just add in a couple of scene to build character and to estabilish arya’s warging, and re-estabilishing what happened to needle, it would also serve as a good oppurtunity to inform viewers of the political situation in the riverlands.
    I think a few might dip into aDwD and aFfC slightly, perhaps the second half of the Yara plotline being the Kingsmoot, after for whatever reason her attack on the dreadfort fails. Theon’s plotline could also do that, it could revolve around either ramsay having a hunt for bran and rickon, or him winning the lords of the north to his fathers side, as he seems to be doing in the first theon chapter in aDwD. Really thats only think that that chapter should be used in season 4, perhaps with the season ending with Ramsay announcing to theon that he will need him to come with him to moat cailin, or perhaps ending with the capture of moat cailin and roose’s host coming through the neck.
    The only one i think should go entirely into aDwD territory should be Brans story arc, and even then it should be building a new storyline with bran around the couple of chapters we get between him going through the wall to arriving at bloodravens cave. Season should end for him with him arriving there, although bloodraven not revealed properly yet so they dont need to bother paying an actor for him until season 5

  169. outdoorcats
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Damn, I can’t WAIT for the first casting leaks. Last year if I remember correctly we got lucky and got Shireen before the season had even finished. Hopefully we’ll get one or two by the time Comic-Con rolls around, or if not, they do something like last year and do a bunch of official casting announcements at Comic-Con. Who is being cast next year will, of course, give us very big clues as to what storylines they’ll be incorporating–and what characters they will cut. Will they cast a Val, a Dalla, a Coldhands?

    Like WinterisComing.net, I predict Season 4 will be almost exclusively ASOS – particularly at the Wall and King’s Landing. Those storylines have obvious climaxes at the end of Book 3, but virtually nothing climactic at the beginning of Book 4 and 5. Jon’s Election and the Death of Tywin make perfect season finale storylines, though perhaps they’ll put them in Episode 9 and do another somewhat anticlimactic finale which slowly sets up next season’s storylines (this year, I don’t think they’ll do that, though – Stannis’ wall rescue and the big duel at King’s Landing make perfect Episode 9ers, and the subsequent events in the finale will turn the ‘epic’ up to a whole new level).

    However, they also need to start some Book 4 and 5 material, or they’ll have too much to work with next year. They can shuffle some storylines around if they aren’t too connected to the Wall and King’s Landing storylines, and move them ahead. In particular I’m thinking we can get the Kingsmoot and perhaps the taking of the Shields towards the end of the season (I’m holding out hope Yara’s rescue attempt fails and she returns for the Kingsmoot–she is the BEST part of the Kingsmoot). Also Dany’s story can start working its way through her ADWD story, as she has only one city left to conquer/banish Jorah from Book 3 and hopefully it won’t take a whole season to do it. True, this doesn’t leave many ‘climactic’ options for the end of Season 4, but perhaps A) they’re not worried about this as at that point all the other storylines will be incredible, or B) they’ll push her marriage forward and make that a season-ender. The latter I would have said would be too rushed before, but I also would have said there’s no way Gendry would have been already freed and the scroll been shown to Stannis by the end of Season 3. They may be worried as well with viewers losing patience with her the way book readers do.

    Theon as well, I think we will get some of his early chapters in ADWD this season–I’m thinking his ‘undercover’ job to get the Ironborn to surrender at Moat Caitlin, ending the season with Roose and Ramsay reuniting and Roose moving his force north. Before that I guess we’ll see more of Ramsay doing horrible stuff to Theon, since I doubt we’re meant to think he’s completely broken yet. I’m guessing it will involve versions of the characters Kyra or Lady Hornwood – in any case, someone for Alfie Allen to play against who’s not just torturing him.

    Stannis…who knows? I’m almost sure they’re saving his arrival at the Wall for late in the season, but what will they show until then? Will Dillane, Cunningham, Van Houten and Msamati vanish for a whole season only to shockingly appear to save the day? It’s possible. However, Davos said he would need to rally houses and pirates behind Stannis in this year’s finale. I’m guessing that in between that and the fact we haven’t seen any evidence of any other nobles or noble houses hanging around Dragonstone, we’re going to see scenes not from the books in which Davos rebuilds a small army for Stannis. He’ll have to reconvince Salla to join the cause again (they’ve developed Sallador too much to drop him), and perhaps he’ll be forced to work with his nemesis Selyse to bring the Florents around. Otherwise everyone will be asking, ‘where the heck did Stannis get an army?’

    Finally, Bran and Arya. Obviously Bran has to go into his ADWD storyline because we’ve already finished his Book 3 one (though we haven’t met Coldhands). I’m guessing Bran’s story next year will be as unfortunately sparse as it was this year, and he’ll only appear every other episode. However I’m hoping Jojen will start teaching Bran about ‘the sight’ and they’ll start seeing important events from Westeros’ past through Branjen’s eyes: The Tourney at Harrenhal, The Tower of Joy, etc. And finally we can delve into all that.

    Arya’s storyline is so thin in Books 4 and 5 that it seems counterintuitive to rush her to Braavos. And yet her storyline is incredibly thin in the last third of Book 3 as well. Viewers like seeing her with the Hound so far but would grow frustrated if she didn’t abandon him until the last two episodes, with them aimless wandering around for an entire season, looking for someone to ransom Arya to. I’m guessing they’ll add some action setpieces that aren’t in the books to spice up their storyline, Arya reclaims needle (and kills Polliver) in episode 5/6 or so, abandons the Hound for dead in 6/7 or so, then vanishes for the last few episodes until the finale, for a scene where she uses the coin to depart from Braavos at Saltpans. Like Bran there’s no way she and The Hound will appear every episode.

  170. Sareeta
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    I think we can all predict what the major plot points of season 4 will be. I am more curious/excited about the following plot lines:

    1. Myrcella – after she was shipped off to Dorne, we didn’t hear about her until Cersei mentioned her in the finale. I can see her being used as the POV in Dorne, because a) she ties back to characters we know well (Lannisters in Kings Landing and b) it might be easier to start with a familiar face than introduce a whole bunch of new main characters;

    2. Rickon and Osha’s journey – they essentially disappear from the book and are only mentioned in book 5. I’m dying to know the true story of what they’ve been up to, since we book readers don’t know for sure.

    3. What they’re going to about the Greyjoys. I didn’t see the point of introducing Victarion and Euron until I remembered the plot of season 5. I guess it depends on how important they are to the remaining story after book 5.

    4. Bran/Hodor/Reeds – how far into book 5 are we going to get? I hope they make significant progress and he meets the Three Eyed Crow in season 4. I think we’ve had enough of him journeying

    5. I really think they need to remind us of the threat the White Walkers pose. Besides seeing them a couple times in season 1, gathering at the end of season 2, and briefly in season 3, it’s hard to believe the danger they pose. I think we need to see some on screen White Walker action involving characters we care about.

  171. El Beto
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    I love you guys speculating about the show… 3 years and you don’t learn they do what they fucking whant.
    They delete characters and scenes and add new ones.

  172. El Beto
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    I think you fucking want to cover the rest of book 3 and ALL of 4 and 5… slow down, Sunspear!!!

    8 seasons for 7 books?
    Suppose book 6 will be finished in the late 2014 at best.
    Book 7 is going to be in like 2018.
    The show CAN NOT pass the books. We readers don’t deserve it.

  173. Lord Of The Waters
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    I know this may not necessarily be used for season 4 but does anyone think it is possible that they could have Bronn replace Ilyn Payne as the guy who helps Jaime train to fight left handed? With Wilko Johnsons illness I wouldn’t think the show would recast the role and Jerome Flynn (a fan favourite) would be leaving the show at the end of next season if they follow the books. So how about instead of the silence of Ilyn Payne, Jaime has the one liners and sarcasm of Bronn to motivate him? It would be a shame to lose Jerome Flynn and I think there could be some golden dialogue between him and NCW especially as you have the Bronn/Tyrion connection that they could play on. It might never work but its just something that came into my mind as Im sat here on my break at work.

  174. Chickenduck
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    El Beto:

    The show CAN NOT pass the books. We readers don’t deserve it.

    What’s this “we” you’re talking about? I’ve also read the books and am happy for them to pass.

    I’d probably enjoy the show more if I didn’t know mostly already know what was going to happen.

  175. Chickenduck
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of The Waters:
    I know this may not necessarily be used for season 4 but does anyone think it is possible that they could have Bronn replace Ilyn Payne as the guy who helps Jaime train to fight left handed?

    Yep, I’ve thought about that too. Definitely possible.

  176. Chickenduck
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    boned:
    superdeluxe,

    Hopefully we get to see her revived on 1st episode or 2. The finale happened 1 day after the red wedding, when you see davos smuggling gendry it’s like 1 day after it. Hopefully they introduce people’s family when she hangs em

    Maybe we won’t see the actual resurrection? We could just get the hanging scene, or something like it, come out of nowhere. Probably Black Walder or Lame Lothar, as the audience are already introduced to them.

  177. Ser Hound
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    I really want the PW early in the season: episode 1 or 2. I feel like it will serve to set up KL plot for the whole season as well as reignite interest for all the Unsullied viewers that are getting weary of the constant depressing deaths. I’m really surprised that so many people are predicting that it will be episodes 5 or 6 when many were sure it would be the final episode of season 3! There’s really no reason for it to not be early in the season. It would especially make more since for Jaime/Brienne’s storylines.

    I’m calling it. PW in episode 2 written by GRRM.

  178. Ser Hound
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of The Waters:
    I know this may not necessarily be used for season 4 but does anyone think it is possible that they could have Bronn replace Ilyn Payne as the guy who helps Jaime train to fight left handed? With Wilko Johnsons illness I wouldn’t think the show would recast the role and Jerome Flynn (a fan favourite) would be leaving the show at the end of next season if they follow the books. So how about instead of the silence of Ilyn Payne, Jaime has the one liners and sarcasm of Bronn to motivate him? It would be a shame to lose Jerome Flynn and I think there could be some golden dialogue between him and NCW especially as you have the Bronn/Tyrion connection that they could play on. It might never work but its just something that came into my mind as Im sat here on my break at work.

    Wow. I LOVE this idea.

  179. Cadeyrn
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    Don’t forget they must cater to potential new viewers with the new season. I’d expect Ep1 to be intro, rehash: Jon laid up, probably some fever-dreams to remind people how he got shot. Nights Watch trying to prepare, maybe some skirmishes to get the wildlings / white walkers in the running. More on the reunion in King’s Landing, hustle and bustle for setup of the royal wedding, probably some character arrivals and intros, possibly a lot of that as the various backgrounds are explained. Spider, Sansa, Loras, Cersei need to establish their schticks and relationships, and most of all Joffrey has to have some more evil time just to be sure that hook is set. Bran’s journey has to be re-explained and set for the season. Is that enough? Remember, we haven’t seen Littlefinger for a long while. Will he appear, and, if so, will they take liberties with when and where? I think they may have to just so everyone’s situation is made clear. That leaves Stannis, Davos and the Red-Wench.

    I don’t see any time for LS, Theon, Arya, any of the chaos in the North. In fact, I think D&D are going to have to make some hard decisions or risk turning S4 into as much chaotic jumping around as the books themselves. They came darn close in S3 Ep10 and ran long just to cover all of the ground – even if they didn’t have to *grumble* – but this raises a new thought. Did they have to move up Jamie because of the sheer mass of things necessary to get S4 up off the ground? I think that is definitely possible.

    Count me with the others above and elsewhere who think HBO needs to revamp their proposed 7-season arc into something more. Also, it would be awesome to do spin-offs, prequels etc. while the actors are still close to their current selves. That opportunity is fading fast…

  180. tysnow
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Ser Hound,

    I second it, kudos to Lord Waters for great speculation, throw him a Tully.

  181. outdoorcats
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Alright, here are my totally left-field predictions for major events episode by episode.

    Episode 1: King’s Landing prepares for Joffrey’s wedding, and welcomes Mace Tyrell and the Red Viper. Oberyn tells Tyrion how they first met. Tywin tells Jaime to abandon the Kingsguard. Jaime refuses. Tywin disowns him. Jon recovers from his wounds and news of the Red Wedding, and Grenn and Pyp and some Night’s Watchmen arrive back at the wall. Euron’s ship is seen sailing into Pyke and Balon suffers an ‘accident.’ Dontos summons Sansa and tells her he has an escape plan for Joffrey’s wedding night. Dany comes upon some ugly signposts pointing the way to her next destination. Tywin tells The Red Viper that justice is already his – the man who raped and murdered Elia Martell is Armory Lorch, who was assassinated at Harrenhal. Oberyn is not pleased. Tywin tells Tyrion of his plan to make Janos Slynt Lord Commander of the Wall.

    Episode 2: The Purple Wedding. An all-King’s Landing episode like Blackwater. Tensions between Tyrion and Joffrey reach an all-time high as Tyrion figures out who attempted to assassinate Bran Stark in his sleep years ago at Winterfell. Brienne runs into Loras and Jaime has to prevent bloodshed. Thousands gather to watch Joffrey marry Margaery, but there’s a slight hitch in the wedding plans. Sansa escapes King’s Landing. Tyrion stands accused of kingslaying.

    Episode 3: In the immediate aftermath, Ser Dontos takes Sansa to a boat where she has an unwelcome surprise. Tommen is crowned King of Westeros. Bran is re-introduced, and there might be a little cuteness between him and Meera. Arya is reintroduced – as she and The Hound head toward the Vale, the Hound tells her the backstory of the extent of his older brother’s evil, and his plan to kill him one day. A motley crew from Mole’s Town arrives to reinforce Castle Black, before it is attacked by the Wildings (including Ygritte and Tormund) from the South and a large battle ensues. Theon has another prisoner introduced into his cell–Ramsay’s wife. Dany arrives outside the walls of Meeren and finds scorched earth. Tyrion scrounges for witnesses and receives counsel from his uncle Kevan. The Tyrells quickly press Tywin to engage Margaery and Tommen, and Roose Bolton arrives to demand an Arya Stark. Bran and Company meet a tall dark stranger. Jon finds Ygritte dying amidst the aftermath. (Tormund escapes to climb back over the wall).

    Episode 4: We are introduced to Aeron and Victarion Greyjoy. Victarion tells of Balon’s death and Euron’s return, and Aeron calls a Kingsmoot. The Hound and Arya are forced to turn back. Davos tries to convince his old friend Salladhor Saan to rejoin the cause for Stannis. Theon and Lady Hornwood set in motion their escape attempt. Loras joins the Kingsguard (with Cersei and Tommen’s help), igniting the furor of the Tyrells and Tywin Lannister both. While considering battle-plan options, Daenerys is surprised by a forcefully romantic Jorah – and Ser Barristan sees the aftermath and guesses the rest. Yara’s forces are horrifically ambushed by Ramsay’s men and as she and the survivors recuperate she learns the news of her father’s death and the Kingsmoot. Ser Barristan tells Dany the truth about Jorah now that he feels Jorah does not know his place. Dany banishes him. At the wall, Jon and the Night’s Watch brace for Mance Rayder’s attack. Tyrion tries to find out the truth behind the Purple Wedding to no avail.

    Episode 5: Grey Worm suggests an idea to get behind Meeren’s walls, which gives Ser Barristan an opportunity to prove himself (it isn’t pretty), and they open the gates to her army. Tyrion summons Bronn, but Bronn refuses to fight in trial by combat, and pragmatically explains why. Jojen uses The Sight to show Bran a tourney long ago at Harrenhal with mysterious implications. Yara avoids her mother but seeks support at the Kingsmoot from her uncle Rodrik. Jon and a tiny force of Night’s Watchmen fight off thousands of Mance Rayder’s wildings.

    Episode 6: Arya and The Hound run into some old enemies, and Arya gets her sword back. At the wall, the temporary Lord Commander (Donal Noye) is found dead and Aemon names Jon to lead. Littlefinger shows Sansa where he grew up and they’re reunited with Lysa at the Fingers. Melisandre wins the Florents over to the Red God–and she does more than bat her eyelashes. The Kingsmoot, and the introduction of Euron Greyjoy, who crowns himself King of Westeros. Yara flees and Aeron vanishes. Still on the run, Theon and Lady Hornwood find they’ve been hunted the whole time, and Theon watches her raped and murdered before his eyes. Ramsay tells him that it’s his fault, just like everything else that’s happened. Daenerys is told of the fate of Astapor and makes the decision to rule Meeren.

    Episode 7: Tyrion’s trial begins, and witness after witness seem to have nothing but incriminating evidence against him. The Sons of the Harpy begin their campaign of terror in Meeren. The Hound begs Arya for mercy, but she gives him none. The Battle at the Wall continues. Jaime looks over the White Book, and has a moment with a disdainful Loras, seeing his younger self in him. Sansa arrives at the Eyrie. Brienne meets Gendry and the two of them bond (I’m guessing Gendry will be added to her Season 5 quest with Pod, and possibly Hyle Hunt assuming they cast him). Euron demonstrates the extent of his cruelty towards those who defy him, and ‘marries’ Yara to one of his men using a seal as a stand-in. Shae is captured by the Lannisters and given an offer she can’t refuse – she’s told the only way to spare Tyrion’s life is break him at the trial and make him confess (and thus join the Night’s Watch). The Mountain arrives at Harrenhal to dispense Lannister justice to Locke. Jon’s leadership is interrupted when Janos Slynt arrives with Alliser Thorne to assume command, and promptly arrest Jon for oathbreaking and treason. Dany concludes her first day of rule when a bereft man dumps a bag of charred children’s bones at her feet.

    Episode 8: Tyrion receives a mysterious visitor to his cell, on the morning the last day of his trial is to begin, not shown directly. Dany cages her dragons, and considers a proposal from the smooth talking merchant Hizdahr no Loraq regarding the Sons of the Harpy. Sansa babysits Robin Arryn as she pretends to be Littlefinger’s bastard daughter. Tywin gives Jaime a sword. Jojen uses the Sight to show Bran a confrontation at the Tower of Joy, with yet more mysterious implications. There’s a hitch of some kind in Osha and Rickon’s plan to go to the Umbers and find themselves hunted by the Boltons and Ramsay’s men. Osha, driven by desperation, forms a new plan to go to the one place they know they’ll never be followed. Coldhands finds some Night’s Watch deserters–and dispatches them. Slynt and Thorne tell Jon the one way he can prove his loyalty. At Tryion’s trial, Varys testifies against him–and then so does Shae. She goes for the jugular and causes the crowd to laugh at Tyrion’s tears. At his lowest point ever, instead of confessing Tyrion gives a stirring speech, then calls for trial by combat and names The Red Viper as his champion. To the shock of everyone in the room The Red Viper stands up and accepts with a twisted grin and nod to Tyrion, who nods back, looking a little darker than he ever has before. Badass music. CREDITS.

    Episode 9: King’s Landing prepares for an unforgettable duel. Tyrion and Ellaria try to warn Oberyn not to be overconfident. Euron, with the help of Victarion, quickly captures the Shield Islands, and Tywin Lannister tries to stem the Tyrell’s panic. Jaime gives Brienne a sword and a mission. Faced with rising victims of the Sons of the Harpy, Dany makes a morally dangerous decision to try and create peace. Jon goes on a suicide mission to treat with the wildings, and Mance tells him that they have the Horn of Joramund, which will destroy the wall if blown. At the last minute, they have surprise visitors. King’s Landing looks on as The Red Viper publicly accuses Gregor Clegane of abominations and starts the crowd cheering against him–but then Game of Thrones happens.

    Episode 10: The Freys learn that one of their own is hostage to the Brotherhood Without Banners, and they send Lame Lothar Frey to ransom him. Tyrion awaits execution, as does Mance Rayder. Stannis sets up camp at Castle Black and tells Jon that as King he will legitimize him as Jon Stark and absolve him of his Night’s Watch vows. Sam and his friends begin election campaigning. The Sons of the Harpy continue to strike more brutally than before, Dany can’t go through with her threats, and she seriously considers Hizdahr’s proposal. She sends Daario on a mission to raise armies from nearby lands as bleak news arrives of armies and ships from all over Essos slowly converging on Meereen. Theon appears to the Ironborn left holding Moat Caitlin, apparently himself again, trying to convince them to surrender to Lord Ramsay so they can receive mercy. They surrender, are slaughtered instead, and Theon, now revealed to be completely insane, is allowed to sleep with Ramsay’s dogs as a reward. Roose and Ramsay reunite, but Roose has some stinging words for his bastard son. They begin north towards the ruins of Winterfell. Bran and company barely escape death into a dark tunnel, which leads to a populated underground cavern. Jojen is looking extremely ill. Arya finds a Braavosi sailor at the Saltpans and gives him Jaqen’s coin, with effective results. Stannis sends Davos on a secret mission. Yara licks her wounds at Deepwood Motte. Euron runs into resistance from his own men and sends Victarion on a mission. Brienne and Gendry leave King’s Landing in search of Sansa or Arya Stark. To Stannis’ furor, Jon is elected Lord Commander of the Wall. Jaime frees Tyrion from prison, but not before telling him a long-buried secret, with murderous results. Shae isn’t given a chance to defend her actions – Tywin refuses to defend his. Varys reveals to Tyrion where he plans to send him. Snow falls on the Vale and Sansa builds a model replica of Winterfell in the snow. Robin Arryn destroys it and LF tries to cheer her up with a french kiss. Lysa sees them and confronts Littlefinger angrily…near the moon door. “Only Cat.” Meanwhile, Lame Lothar arrives with a ransom only to find that guest right isn’t what it used to be, and horror waiting for him in the woods.

  182. tysnow
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Sareeta,

    I really think they need to remind us of the threat the White Walkers pose. Besides seeing them a couple times in season 1, gathering at the end of season 2, and briefly in season 3, it’s hard to believe the danger they pose. I think we need to see some on screen White Walker action involving characters we care about

    This is good thought processing, after Sam killed that WW, everyone is thinking the WW are not that big a threat anymore, if a little Dragonglass can kill them that easy, just use DG arrowheads and rain down on them. Therefore they need to show how freaking frightening these WW and their army of undead are, perhaps show the WW wearing some cool new armor impervious to DG, since this is how they were beat before. If I was one and knew about my weakness to DG I would find or invent a way to protect myself.

  183. brian
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Episode 9 was the best of the season.If people don’t like violence then don’t watch it!Expessing intense hatred through realistic violence is an art.I love non censored creations.If I wanted censorship I’d watch the disney channel.
    Vikestad:
    Oh, with Jaime arriving early we’ll get more scenes with him and Tyrion probably.They only had two scenes together in the books right?

  184. outdoorcats
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Cadeyrn,

    Only Frank Doelger said 7 seasons, and I think he just said that because there were 7 books and, with all due respect, Doelger doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Not that he was trying to make a definitive statement to fans, he just made a casual comment that got blown way out of proportion and taken as gospel for the series’ end date. D&D, on the other hand, have thrown around ’8-9′ seasons in regards to their estimate for this show’s length many times. This is HBO’s most successful show–which do you think THEY’D prefer? To rush the series to a quick ending, or to make as much money off it as they can?

  185. outdoorcats
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    I’m hoping we’ll see significant (and very scary) scenes of the White Walkers slowly picking away at Mance’s army to convey his desperation, even as he’s attacking the wall he’s trying to protect his ranks. I’m also hoping for a Val and a Dalla but I’m trying not to get my hopes up. :)

  186. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Magnar of Thenn: paying attention

    Let’s ease off a bit there. Big stuff has happened in last ep of the season before. Others mentioned Drogo’s death; also, we had the House of the Undying, Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand, and Sam and the White Walkers. The death of Tywin may very well be one of those catharsis-type moments that belongs in a last episode rather than an Episode 9, whereas the more surprising and horrific things — Oberyn vs the Mountain, Lysa being pushed out the Moon Door, the Battle at the Wall — feel more like Episode 9. (On the latter, though, it would sideline Stannis for the whole season, which is why I don’t see it happening then.)

    I do agree with the folks on io9 who said that they think most of AFfC and ADwD are going to end up being pushed into Season 5. Brienne’s wanderings likely start in Season 4; and those who think there’s not much left for Arya to do before Braavos, I disagree with – her and the Hound form one of those great oddball pairings (a la Jaime and Brienne) that can sustain several episodes of travel before the big fight, the rediscovering of Needle, and then boarding a ship.

    There’s lots of great political intrigue that will come in this season and in Season 5 as Cersei assumes power, but that, and her ongoing battles with Madge, are going to probably take up the bulk of that season.

  187. Jose 2nd son of bravos
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    I hope there is more sword play.. That’s the most disappointing part of G.O.T there is some great swordplay and in the series it falls short.. But hopefully they will be rectify that in season 4.. The fights at the wall. Red viper and the mountain..not to mention Next season fans of this genre will have “vikings”and “300 Rise of an Empire” to see and get some updated fight scene standards.. To feast on.. So cmon guys..get with it..lol..!!

  188. WildSeed
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Most intriguing responses throughout the comments about the the upcoming
    4th season. I would wager that the S4 highlight exclusively from ASOS
    as a premise but Bran and Jon ‘s stories have foreshadowed into to later
    books territory. The source material is quite rich but I hope some tweaking
    of Asha and other Iron Island activity prove enticing with a delay and
    tightening up in certain distracting if meandering aspects of internal politics
    and pirating voyages. Bran and Jon would fare better in delaying Bran’s
    descent into the Northern territories and Jon’s immediate rise in position.

    There are any combinations the producers would foray into a making
    a cohesive set of stories framed in season 4. I just hope the pace remains
    reasonable to allow definition , as demonstrated in S3. Much could be
    segway ed into S5 or later, since there have already been an acceleration
    effort by mixing in ADWD elements for the North .

    I wonder if Mace Tyrell will contribute much onscreen and Oberyn not
    more than a sideshow for the benefit of Kings Landing. The significant
    wealth of detail may be lost to fully comprehend the importance of some
    characters, but enough presence to impact viewers of roles that deserve
    to be inserted. many may be satisfied with familiarity or edits where
    necessary.I wonder how much though, of Shae’s scorn will make
    it into any projected dealings with Tyrion. Right now looking forward
    to Joffrey’s wedding seems enough.

    I’m interested especially in developing issues in Kings Landing, naturally,
    but the return of Mance in the North, and concerted efforts to make
    worthwhile the Wildling presence in a way to merit their story to consist
    of more than raid or 2. Perhaps Val may make her debut , or Mance
    share more insights with Jon to later affect his later decisions as a leader
    when it comes to managing the Wildling vs Other/Wight threats.
    I’m curious too if the Magnar of Thenn just gets mention or in it
    for thee long haul too.

    The lands surrounding Winterfell may shed a few scenes on further developments
    of the Dreadfort and escaped Karstark men. However Littlefinger’s
    absence may speak volumes for his ventures at the Eyrie. Perhaps he’ll
    teleport back to Kings Landing to rescue Sansa ?
    Not likely, that’s a
    good enough starting point or addition for S5.

  189. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Seanachie:
    GreatJon of Slumber,

    First, remember that Davos isn’t with Stannis when he goes North.Second, no one says Stannis has to leave in Ep1.In fact, Davos explicitly suggests that he needs to recruit new people to help Stannis at the Wall.My guess is that some combination of the Dragonstone trio spends the first half of the season recruiting spurned lords from the Vale and North on their slow trek to the Wall.

    I think you’re half-right, and half-wrong. I think Davos may well end up doing more shuttle diplomacy to win a few more hands to his side, as you said. But again, this show has shown that it wants to try to keep interesting characters together and develop 1-on-1 dynamics that make for good conversation and character-building, at the expense of – more than anything else – logical amounts of necessary time passage for traveling.

    So just as we saw Littlefinger bounce all over the place in Season 2 (Look, it’s the Stormlands! Look, he’s in Harrenhall! Look, he’s back in Kings Landing!) and Melisandre don the jet pack in Season 3 (Episode 6, somewhere in the Riverlands…Episode 7, sailing through Blackwater Bay!), well, if it ratchets up the tension, we’ll see Davos and Stannis at the Wall for most of Season 4, after which Davos can leave to go to White Harbor. Why? Because more Davos is a good thing. More Davos/Melisandre/Stannis tension, with Jon Snow in the mix, is an even better thing.

  190. johnnytata
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    why would they not have shae betray tyrion. they have set this up as potentially occurring as she feels like a lover scorned to me. a scorned lover could easily betray the person who has scorned her. this would then set up tyrion killing her in anguish over her betrayal, and i don’t see why they couldn’t pull this off with people sympathizing with tyrion. after all, i don’t see this as being that different from the book, where tyrion loves shae but kills her and no one hates him or thinks he is a monster. i am pretty sure that if shae betrays many people’s favorite character, they will be pissed at her.

    finally, people are always concerned that the show is gonna pull its punches or not provide a twist. the evidence suggests that this is categorically false. furthermore, in some cases, ie red wedding, not only did they not pull their punches, they actually escalated the brutality.

  191. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    If you give one more piece of my food to those dogs, I’m gonna kick you till you’re dead!

  192. WildSeed
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    Yes, you make a good point, I’d completely forgotten at the moment, about Arya
    and Brienne. An appropriate pace is what will impact the series as a whole and
    in any given season.

  193. WildSeed
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown,

    Nice *>* !

  194. johnnytata
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    while i appreciate the effort, my eyes kind of glaze over when i see these novel-sized comments.

  195. Josla
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    For Bran they should spice up the storyline a bit more. Last season he was really boring. I say meet colhands and focus in his travels. The difficulties of traveling further and further north and a couple of nasty and suspenful encounters with wights. They should use this season to develop a bit more Jojen and Meera. I’d finish with him meeting Leaf and entering the cave.

    Season five should be his meeting bloodraven and a fleshed out storyline of his training and some misterious happenings inside the cave. Some added stuff. Although what to do with him in season six… only the gods know.

  196. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    King’s Landing: The first couple episodes devoted to the awkward return of Jaime and the strained relationships of the Lannisters. Also the introduction of Oberyn, Ellaria and possibly Arianne will be with them. Then the PW and Tyrion’s imprisonment and trial. Tywins death in episode 9 or 10. In the books I was relieved that Tywin got his, but I’ll hate to see Charles Dance leave. Because Tyrion gave Shae a gold chain, I think he will choke her with that. It would be too big a shock to cut out. It would change Tyrion’s arc too much to not include his killing Shae.

    Nightswatch: First episodes introduce Bowen Marsh, Jon defends against accusations of oath breaking. Then the Wildlings attack Castle Black. They will probably not show Eastwatch and will show either Denys Mallister or Cotter Pyke, one of them will be cut. Since the final made it clear Stannis is going north he will arrive earlier than in the books and will inject himself in the LC choosing. Before they can decide between Denys/Cotter and Bowen, the Battle at the Wall will happen. This will be the big event in episode 9. In the finale Sam gets Jon elected as LC. I don’t know how this will happen without Mormont’s raven in the mix. Davos will stick around for the battle so he’ll have something to do. Maybe he will take the place of Donal Noye and kill Mag. Except he will survive and be sent to Manderly the finale.

    Arya/Hound: They will probably stretch this out so she won’t have to head for Braavos until the end of the season. Maybe Arya will finally warg. Maybe she will kill more Freys. She will get needle back. They might kill off the Hound if he doesn’t have a part in the as of yet unpublished books. I don’t agree that Braavos will be cut out. It seems to be becoming more important.

    Sansa: Jaime and Brienne will have at least one interaction with her. That way the oath to protect her will have additional weight. QOT or Margaery will give her the hairnet. Lysa will fly in the finale.

    Theon/Ramsay/Yara: This will probably be mostly scenes invented to give them something to do. Yara looks for Theon. Ramsay looks for Stark boys. I hope to also see some interactions etween Roose and Ramsay as there is a lot of unexplored potential with their relationship.

    Dany: The love triangle with Jorah and Daario will be dramatized. Hopefully Barristan will be developed more. The acquisition of Meereen will be more dramatic than the books. In the final Dany finds out Jorah was spying and he gets exiled. At some point she and Daario will have sex.

    Bran: They will give some of the Sam stuff they left out in season 3. The group will be attacked by wights. Meera tries to kill them with dragonglass and can’t. Coldhands rescues them. I don’t think they would have shown that flock of ravens in the scene where Sam kill the WW if they were going to cut coldhands. He has probably been lurking and watching all this time.

    Totally out of left field guess: In order to keep Gendry in and cut out the number of new characters, he eventually takes over the role of Aurane Waters. Aurane is a supposed to be hot, so why not?

  197. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of The Waters:
    I know this may not necessarily be used for season 4 but does anyone think it is possible that they could have Bronn replace Ilyn Payne as the guy who helps Jaime train to fight left handed? With Wilko Johnsons illness I wouldn’t think the show would recast the role and Jerome Flynn (a fan favourite) would be leaving the show at the end of next season if they follow the books. So how about instead of the silence of Ilyn Payne, Jaime has the one liners and sarcasm of Bronn to motivate him? It would be a shame to lose Jerome Flynn and I think there could be some golden dialogue between him and NCW especially as you have the Bronn/Tyrion connection that they could play on. It might never work but its just something that came into my mind as Im sat here on my break at work.

    I had earlier speculated that perhaps they send Bronn to Dorne, but this is an even better idea. It satisfies a couple of GoT truisms that we’ve seen in the adaptations:

    –Replaces a non-interesting tertiary character with a more awesome secondary character (i.e., Arya & Tywin vs Arya & bunch of kitchen losers, Gendry vs. Edric Storm)
    –Puts two disparate personalities in a room together to have fun with (Arya/Hound, Arya/Tywin, Jaime/Brienne, Tyrion/Bronn, Varys/Everybody)
    –Keeps a cool actor employed.

    Also, I forgot about Locke! For those speculating about him, I think his more appropriate end is at the end of Brienne’s sword. She’s going to be doing a lot of wandering as it is – there’s no telling how many creeps, shitballs and cutthroats she’s going to run into. We also could easily get her introduced to the High Sparrow at a time when he’s still wandering the Riverlands with his followers, and help illuminate how the war has impoverished so many. Then we come back to him in Season 5 when Cersei has the crown’s debt to the church forgiven in exchange for re-establishing the military order of the Septon.

    We’ve seen a lot in the way of religion so far, and the unswerving faith people can have and how it drives them, particularly followers of the red god, but the organizational havoc religion can play, which is one of the more interesting aspects of AFfC, is something I’d love to see played out, especially in Season 5. To me if they do this right and trim judiciously, we could have the shocking end of Season 5 be Cersei’s long walk through King’s Landing, shorn of hair, completely naked, for penance.

  198. Bittersteel
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    The need to establish more about the Targs, Blackfyres and the cause of Robert’s Rebellion. It could easily be pushed back to later seasons but they’ve skipped so much of that story already I don’t know if they can.

    Obviously the Viper can tell the viewers about Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. They could also use him to explain the why the rebellion happened specifically Rhaegar and Lyanna. Sansa’s presence would be an easy catalyst for this conversation. I could see Bran and the Reeds being another source . The KOLT story alongside one about the tourney at Harrenhal. Again Lyanna and Rhaegar are crucial moving forward.

    The Blackfyre’s are a little trickier. Aemon would be the likely candidate but that would be one hell of an info dump. Have him set up the Bloodraven reveal and tie into the election of a new lord commander makes more sense. Then use Bloodraven as a source of Targ history and lore while teaching Bran.

  199. GeekFurious
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    ANiceChianti:
    Calling it now… PW in Episode 4.

    Calling it now:

    PW in episode 3.

  200. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    tysnow,

    I’m hoping we’ll see significant (and very scary) scenes of the White Walkers slowly picking away at Mance’s army to convey his desperation, even as he’s attacking the wall he’s trying to protect his ranks. I’m also hoping for a Val and a Dalla but I’m trying not to get my hopes up. :)

    Agreed. Tormund’s son dies of hypothermia and rises as a wight. It would be cool to actually see this. I think Dalla will be cut and Val will take over her character. GoT caters to he male gaze a lot so they won’t miss the chance to include a character who is a kick-ass hot blonde!

  201. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    I thought maybe Brienne would train Jaime. I don’t see Jaime showing vulnerability to some random sellsword.

  202. Zack
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Whoa, there you go. That’s being economically minded. Great idea.

  203. Josla
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    They skipped the kiss scenes between Dany and Jorah so I’m hoping there was a purpose. My 2cents is that they’ll use it somehow to show rivalry between Jorah and Daario and Dany’s confusion with Jorah’s kiss and several other advances afterwards. Taking of Meeren, treason plot and Jorah exiled at the end. The sex and romance with Daario should be pushed for season 5.

  204. outdoorcats
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Zack,
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I too thought Brienne would train with Jaime before he sends her off, that seems like the necessary change now that Wilko Johnson is dying. :( Although the idea of him training with Bronn is funny, I’d give the preference edge to Brienne as I’m not sure even Tyrion would trust Bronn to keep a secret, Marillion isn’t a good enough fighter, and Brienne is loyal enough to never tell anyone just how poor Jaime is. It also gives them something to do in Season 4 before Jaime sends her off.

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’ve heard this theory about a ‘Davalla’ combo before but I hope it’s not true. Especially if reJon later has a romance with Val. That would just be…weird. I’d also like to see the show explore the relationship between the two sisters (and them talking about something other than men at some point).

  205. Walter_Eagle
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    If Season 4 is pretty much just the rest of ASOS then A) there will be a lot of filler as 65% of it is done and B) episodes 5×01 and 5×02 will have to introduce about 40 characters for the next step in each character’s storyline. They definitely have to bring in a significant few earlier, and Season 4 is an opportune time to do so with only Oberyn and Coldhands and Styr really left to introduce out of ASOS events. Some Greyjoys are a given with Yara’s storyline, and on top of that maybe Doran, Arianne, Kettleblack. etc.

  206. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    If Wilko Johnson dies soon there should be a special curtain call/memorial for him. Even with no line he did such a great job and it’s very sad he’s so ill.

  207. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    outdoorcats,

    I would like to see both Dalla and Val too. I’m not holding my breath for it though.

  208. Jeff
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Like & Share Don’t Hassle The Joff to win a FREE “Don’t Hassle The Joff” T-shirt must enter by 9:00 PM EST TOMORROW (June 14th, 2013)

  209. Arthur
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    All I know is I want The Red Viper to bring some huge, edge of your seat, type tension to KL. I want a badass, middleaged, on the edge of his prime warrior with attitude and wits. I want The Red Viper to feel like a snake in a rats nest, literally. I look forward of seeing an epic duel…

    D&D got to bring in high level stunt people to do this right. This duel better be epic and beautiful and at the sametime tragic and at the end devistating. I want to see some Achilles vs Hector type epicness in this battle.

    They should hire that guy who played Darth Maul and GI Joe’s Snake-Eye to create the fight scene… Always loved that guys work, his name is Ray Park…

    Please bring back Conan Stevens or someone big, not just tall and skinny…

    I still think this is the perfect song for The Red Viper and I really hope they make his storyline to reflect his dedicated and yearning need to a get revenge for his beloved sisters brutal and repulsive murder…

    http://youtu.be/Lhv_yFMuwxs

    Lyrics;
    Before I die alone
    Let me have vengeance
    Before I die alone
    I will have vengeance
    (2x)

    Before I die alone
    Before my time has gone
    There’s just one thing I have to do

    Before the fire and stone
    Before your world is gone
    Have you some patience
    ‘Cuz I will have my vengeance

    Before I die alone
    Let me have vengeance
    Before my time has gone
    I will have vengeance
    (2x)

    Before I die alone
    Let me have vengeance
    I will, I will have my vengeance

    Before your world is gone
    Before the fire and stone
    Have you some patience
    ‘Cuz I will have my vengeance

    Before I die alone
    Before my time has gone
    Let me have vengeance
    I will, I will
    I will have vengeance
    I will have vengeance

  210. Josla
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    I’d like to see Shae survive and sent to Essos by Tywin or go there herself after thinking about it more. That way she and Tyrion could meet in the final season and be happy for ever after :b eespecially if the sailors wife is indeed Tysha as many especulate.

    however I’m sure that’s just a dream with this show being so gored. They will probably have Tywin hang her as he warned Tyrion he would. This will be like a most understandable and strong reason for him to murder his own father.

  211. Jillybean
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of The Waters,

    Love. This. What a great idea. Can someone get it to Cogman?

  212. Dogmayor
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    I’m confident that they’ll have Tyrion kill Shae in the show just as he did in the books. Lets not forget that he gave her a golden chain this season. The camera focused right on it, I’m positive this was a nod to book readers that this is the chain Tyrion will choke her with.

    D&D love the shock and gore. Some people were afraid that they’d have Talisa live through the Red Wedding, but she was delivered a brutal death. Tyrion killing Shae is right up their alley, I think. Not to mention it’s incredibly important for Tyrion’s character development.

  213. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    I’m confident that they’ll have Tyrion kill Shae in the show just as he did in the books. Lets not forget that he gave her a golden chain this season. The camera focused right on it, I’m positive this was a nod to book readers that this is the chain Tyrion will choke her with.

    Yes, yes, yes. Chekov’s necklace! They make a lot of small changes, but they don’t mess with the big stuff. It would be so stupid to get rid of the darkening of Tyrion. They might cut out that singer he gets killed, but not the killing of Shae. Plus, it’s essential to see what a hypocrite Tywin was.

  214. Arkash
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Wall : From a full attack on the Wall to Jon’s election and Sam’s departure.

    Arya: From the Hound to her arrival in Braavos.

    Sansa : From the PW to Lysa’s fall.

    King’s Landing : From the PW to Oberyn and Tywin’s deaths.

    Daenerys: From the conquest of Meereen to the rise of the Harpy.

    Yara: From crossing paths with Rickon and Osha to the death of Balon and arrival of Euron.

    Dreadfort: From the hunt of the Stark’s boys to the arrival of FakeArya and Roose.

    Brienne: From her arrival at KL to her meeting with Lady Stoneheart.

    Riverrun: From the return of the Blackfish to the start of the siege (two or three scenes for the season no more).

  215. Dogmayor
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of The Waters,

    Yep, someone brought this up a while ago and It’s a brilliant idea. It will keep Bronn in the show and we will have the two characters interacting a great deal. It sets up a myriad of possibilities that will all make for good television.

  216. Jillybean
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of Cogman, I sincerely hope he writes the episode with Tyrion riding out to meet the RV. There are some wonderful lines in that exchange, and Bryan is so good at taking great lines from the book and combining them with his own equally good inventions. I hope he writes at least two next season.

  217. Butterbumps
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Nah, Cersei was going all genocide on Robert’s bastards in season 2, so she knows there’s a “Gendry” at large there, and will kill him the moment she finds out who he is. Plus, why would Gendry work for Cersei anyway?

    If Gendry is supposed to replace someone, I would nominate Pod or Ser Hyle in Brienne’s arc like many has suggested. Their storylines converge in the book anyway.

  218. Eor!
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Theorizing on some plot points:

    Bran – first ep. will end with Coldhands. We’ll follow Coldhands for most of the season, ending with the reveal of Leaf/the Children

    Arya – Season will end with her leaving the hound to go to Braavos. Will probably include scenes of them wandering around the ruins of the riverlands.

    Tyrion – the one change in Jaimie’s storyline I don’t like is that now Jaimie/Tyrion will meet up earlier, while in the book they don’t meet up until Tyrion is about to be executed. Either way, I’ll assume that the first stuff with him will be meeting the Red Viper, and around episode 3-4 will be the PW, ep 9 will include him murdering Tywin, and episode 10 will end with Illyrio talking about “A dragon with three heads”.

    Theon/Yara – Honestly I have no idea. I noticed that Yara was going to sail all the way around Dorne, so honestly (though I doubt it) she might not appear at all next season. If she does (likely), then the best guess I can make is that she’ll stumble across Stannis’s fleet and get captured early. Or her father dies so she returns to stake her claim, but since they include the part of her leaving, I doubt they’d turn around and scrape all of it a few episodes in.

    Reek – hopefully he won’t be the focus of the scenes. I can see the next season having a lot of Ramsey, with Reek following him like a dog.

    Dany – start with the crucified slaves, have her conquer it, her season ends with the reveal of the girl Drogon ate. If they continue the fire/ice/fire then the next season can have it’s ending at the Wall

    What I think they’ll include that they haven’t so far:

    -The Horn of Winter
    -Azor Ahai (meeting with the Watch could easily require this conversation)
    -Lightbringer (more of a person hope, can see Melisandre finally bring this out so Stannis can fight the ‘Great Other”)
    Knight of the Laughing Tree – the least likely, but since this could take five or so minutes it could cover a Bran episode. Plus I can imagine hearing about the Knight of the Laughing tree while Bran nervously glances over at a smiling weirwood.

  219. Abyss
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Jillybean,

    You don’t need to hope anymore, it has been confirmed a while ago. ;-)

  220. Brock Russell
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I really hope they bring back Dontos. I thought they would for the season 3 finale, but I hope they bring him back. Establishing him on season 2 to not bring him back would be foolish. I have faith.

  221. Shan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    I thought maybe Brienne would train Jaime.I don’t see Jaime showing vulnerability to some random sellsword.

    Yeah, I’m with you on this. Jaime basically spends AFFC getting by entirely on bluff (“You can’t go up on those gallows!” “This sword says I can. Will I need to step over your corpse on the way?”) I don’t think he’d risk blowing that bluff on an ambitious sellsword. (At least, I *hope* he’s not that stupid. He and his brother are both sometimes dumb, but they’re not usually dumb about the same things).

    It’s a shame, though, because Jaime/Bronn scenes would be awesome festivals of snark. Maybe they can get drunk together sometime instead?

  222. Deekan
    Posted June 13, 2013 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    I don’t really like going to Westeros.org any more they kind of cheesed me off with “The Rains of Castamere” review… just didn’t strike me as an unbiased review… but maybe that is just me…

  223. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Regarding season 4′s new characters, I have a suggestion for Oberyn Martell, though it might be considered blasphemous since many think the Red Viper should be played by a Mediterranean or Spanish actor. I was thinking Benedict Cumberbatch: I’ve been watching Sherlock and the guy is tall, with long limbs and he looks like a damn viper: high cheekbones, slit-eyed stare, a mouth that can look cruel. Yet also highly charismatic. I’d throw his name into the ring for sure. Many will probably disagree because he’s a white Englishman, (hey, Pyat Pree was a milk-bottle-white Scotsman!)

  224. Amberica
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    HoundsLady,

    I actually think they will keep it the same, because this season we saw Tyrion give her the gold chain. They could switch and have Tywin do it though.

  225. Phil
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    I’ve only read through book 3, but I wonder if they have enough set up to do Joffrey’s wedding in episode 2, since that’s the one GRRM is writing. There’s a lot left to deal with at the Wall and King’s Landing with Tyrion after the wedding, but not a lot for other characters unless they start adding in books 4& 5. And if this season has proved anything, its that the kids are growing up fast, so they can’t leave them out for too long, they’re already much older than their book counterparts (even though Sansa said she’s only 14 this season, she doesn’t look it).

    I’m thinking the Balon thing might happen off screen like in the books and we’ll see Yara going to rescue Theon in epsiode 1 and she’ll get a raven or something during her trip.

    I do wonder if Jamie is going to be present for the wedding, I kinda hope they find something for him to do that requires him to leave and return after. (I really don’t think they should have had him return in the finale, yet another change for no reason).

    I think there’s enough KL and the wall storyline for 10 episodes without it getting boring, but I don’t know what they’ll do with the other characters. I guess Arya can get back needle and then head off, that might be enough for an episode or two.

    They’re gonna need to do the wedding early so as not to rush Tyrion and Sansa’s post-wedding stuff. Again, I haven’t read books 4 and 5 yet, so I don’t know if they can do some characters stories while sticking to KL and the Wall stuff from ASOS, but I’m sorta hoping the final scene of episode 9 or 10 is Lysa and Littlefinger followed by a cut to the epilogue from ASOS

  226. Chickenduck
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Deekan:
    I don’t really like going to Westeros.org any more they kind of cheesed me off with “The Rains of Castamere” review… just didn’t strike me as an unbiased review… but maybe that is just me…

    Nah, lots of people feel that way on here.

  227. Bowl of Brown
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    Probably a long shot, but I think there’s a case to be made for combining Arianne (if she comes to KL with Oberyn, as many have speculated) with Taena of Myr. For one thing, their descriptions and mannerisms are strikingly similar. It reduces character/story bloat (I can hear the Darkstar fans crying out in terror), and it helps fill a major power void in KL for season 5.

    Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer are killing it, but I don’t think they’re enough to carry KL alone. Yes, I am well aware that the Martells despise the Lannisters as much as the Tyrells, but having Arianne act as a double agent of sorts could open up a lot of interesting possibilities.

    It works out well for continuity’s sake, too. Arianne can slip away during Cersei’s arrest, like Taena does, and head south to rendezvous with Griff & Son.

  228. Lyanna_Targaryen
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Phil,

    In RE: to your wish that Jaime leaves and is going for Joff’s wedding, I think this departure from the novel might be a smart move. It would be an interesting twist to have Jaime present for the royal wedding and J’s death. It would drive an even bigger wedge between Cersei and Jaime, since Cersei will almost certainly blame Jaime for not protecting Joffrey, adding another layer of conflict between them.

    Just my two coppers.

  229. Suzaku
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    These are my own thoughts regarding Season 4, along with some general speculation for Seasons 5 and 6.

    Wall of text incoming:

    Promoting cutting anything from the books is absolutely insane to me. Do people actually want them to run out of material to adapt and diverge from the books?

    There’s enough stuff left in Storm of Swords that they can have a big dramatic moment in pretty much every episode this season: Balon’s death, Joff’s death, the battle at the wall, Arya and the Hound killing the Mountain’s freeriders, Sansa escaping King’s Landing, Jon being chosen as Lord Commander of the of the Night’s Watch, Jaime becoming Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the Red Viper’s duel, Dany sacking Meereen, Arya departing for Braavos, Littlefinger killing Lysa, Tyrion killing Tywin, Dany exiling Jorah, Jaime sending Brienne on her mission, Lady Stoneheart reveal.

    On top of that, I actually suggest they expand the House Martell and Greyjoy storylines and extend them into next season, slowly, to more gradually introduce the two families into the greater narrative. This can be accomplished in part through Yara and Oberyn’s roles. I would also suggest they cast the High Septon and play up the brewing political/religious battle between the Lannisters and Martells.

    While it’s true that not much in Feast/Dance compares to the Red Wedding or Blackwater, there are several key moments that I think can have major dramatic impact, especially if they’re played up effectively. The Kingsmoot is certainly a major dramatic moment in the series (and the books clearly set Euron up as Dany’s most dangerous enemy) and at the very least could cap a season finale. Cersei’s walk of shame, the Manderly pie scene, the mass-hanging of Freys by Lady Stoneheart, etc., can feel like a good revenge against the Freys, as an anti-Red Wedding penultimate episode. Bran meeting the Last Greenseer, Quentyn’s death, Jon’s stabbing, the supposed hanging of Davos, and Vary’s murder of Kevan and reveal about Aegon are all pretty huge.

    Those are all moments that could play out in the season 5 and season 6 penultimate/season finale range and feel compelling, especially if, for example, the Dorne story is expanded and Quentyn is introduced earlier.

    Dany’s story does become a bit weak in the books, but can easily be improved in the show by downplaying her sexual desires and poor leadership (the removal of internal monologues handles much of this automatically) and actually shifting the focus to the difficulties of rule and the skirmishes with the other slavers, as well as featuring some of the unseen exploits of Dany’s soldiers and Queensguard.

    Bran’s storyline can be tricked out by introducing Varamyr and Haggon as more fully fleshed out characters (I can imagine a whole story arc being developed from this, with Varamyr killing Haggon and trying to warg into Bran, only to be stopped by, surprise, Coldhands), which not only would make his storyline more interesting, but could fill a lot of time. His training and visions could also be used to bring to life several dreams and flashbacks from the books that were passed over in the show, such as Ned’s dream about the Tower of Joy and some of Dany’s visions in the tower.

    If none of that is dramatic enough for a penultimate episode for season 6, they can move the massive battle that begins the sixth book (the massive battle for Meereen, told from both Victarion and Barristan’s perspectives) forward and use that.

    That will get them through the 2016, allowing them to start filming The Winds of Winter that summer, and through 2018 when they need to start A Dream of Spring.

  230. Turncloak
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Bran: will meet Coldhands in episode 2, will reach Bloodraven by episode 10
    Arya: will reach Braavos by mid season
    Yara: will be captured by Stannis mid season
    Theon: will trick the Ironborn into abondoning deepwood motte by mid season. Will meet Roose Bolton. Will meet fake Arya
    Sansa: will meet Lysa by episode 3. Will witness Lysa’ death by episode 5
    Tyrion: kill Tywin and Shae in episode 9 or finale. Will get imprisonned in episode 2 or 3.
    Jamie: will assume command of kingsguard, will serve as Tyrion’s counsel (instead of kevan)
    Jon, Sam, Aemon: nights watch defense, hopefully skirmish with Ygrittes death in episode 4. Battle at wall in episode 9. Sent on Suicidie mission at end of episode but is rescued by Stannis.
    Brotherhood: absent until finale/stoneheart reveal as she hangs Freys
    Brienne: given OathKeeper by Jaime in episode 3. Sent on quest to find Sansa. Maybe runs into Stoneheart in finale
    Red Viper; awesomeness ensues throughout season culminating in duel with Ser Gregor in episode 9 or 10
    Dany: Ser Barristan duel wins her Mereen early in the season. Aweful Dany Mereen arc begins culminating in awful marriage with Hizdar

  231. Vikestad
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    Deekan,

    Honestly, comparing the books and the adaption, concluding that the more they deviate the worse the episode is silly. Furthermore, it’s not really a review either.

  232. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Yes, yes, yes.Chekov’s necklace!They make a lot of small changes, but they don’t mess with the big stuff.It would be so stupid to get rid of the darkening of Tyrion.They might cut out that singer he gets killed, but not the killing of Shae.Plus, it’s essential to see what a hypocrite Tywin was.

    Right. People talk about the “whitewashing” of his character, but that singer, honestly, is a minor part, and would have been cut anyway because it’s non-essential. This is.

  233. Jim Cross
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    Great post and comments!!!
    I keep seeing the words “battle of fire”
    I’ve read every book several times but have no idea what this “battle of fire” is, or even where it’s been alluded to…

  234. Chickenduck
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    That “game of owns” episode with Bryan Cogman listed above is brilliant. Great insights in terms of the adaptation process, some pertinent points:

    1. The Blackfish was originally to be in S1, but was cut due to too big a cast.
    2. Patchface was included in early drafts of the S3 episode with Selyse and Shireen, but the scene didn’t work and his ramblings were given to Shireen.

    And most importantly, the only book purist whose opinion ultimately matters to them is GRRM, and he’s happy so far. They do discuss changes with him for his input, and he’s been understanding of the realities of making TV.

  235. WinterRose
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    Arya – Wander around with the Hound, get needle, go to Braavos (all this meeting with Jaqen in Westeros is pure nonsense).

    Tyrion – all season in jail, trial by combat, escape and killing Tywin ep 9, arriving in Pentos ep 10.

    Brienne – hiking in the woods, meets BwB in ep 10, Stoneheart reveal, hanging (FINAL SCENE!)

    Sansa – Lysa death ep. 8

    Stannis – Battle at the wall ep. 8, Jon elected ep. 10 (rule no happy stuff on ep. 9)

    Bran – Tree warging in Ep. 10 (seriously, I’d love if they did this. It’d be the supernatural ending we were deprived of this season. Lady Stoneheart in the sequence would be the icing on the cake.

    Daenarys, Theon, Dorne – NO CLUE. But I’d bet Jorah’s treason will have something to do with Daario.

  236. A Storm of S-Words
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    John: Note about ShowShae:
    Maybe we will see her accuse Tyrion of everything in episode 7?
    That will give him the ultimate reason for killing her in episode 10, although I doubt it. More likely that Tywin will get rid of Shae while Tyrion sits in a cell. Being asked about her Tywin can tell Tyrion she is ‘wherever whores go’ (would be a good TV change imho)

    Maybe. But I’m hoping Shae just follows Sansa to the Eyrie instead of betraying Tyrion. Maybe Shae and Tyrion will have a final falling out and she abandons him. I certainly don’t believe Tyrion will strangle her. If anything, Tyrion is betraying her, not the other way around (by giving into his father and marrying Sansa and by refusing to leave Westeros for Shae). I think Shae loves Tyrion too much to betray him, but will just end up leaving him.

    But maybe equally likely is that Tywin has Shae killed (after Littlefinger figures out who she is) and that’s why Tyrion kills his father.

  237. Selmy
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:12 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    Good points. Perhaps Selyse and Shireen will come straight to Castle Black aswell. (Do away with their stay at Eastwatch-by-the-sea) ?

  238. Jentario
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    ebevan91: I think as long as we see Thoros with Stoneheart, the audience will know what happened. They’ll put 2 and 2 together.

    It still needs to be established how the BWB came to find her. I think the premiere should show that Arya-Nymeria scene with one or two mid-season dream sequences featuring Cat (through Bran maybe, and definitely similar dreams to the one from season 3) with rumors going all around the Riverlands of this Lady Stoneheart killing Freys. Then, end the season with the epilogue, right after “only Cat”. People will surely not forget of her, and it WILL be awesome.

  239. Paul
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Canadian actor Kyle Borges has BEEN CAST AS SATIN – the new recruit under the Nights Watch!

  240. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    Paul: Kyle Borges

    Link? I tried Google to no avail.

  241. Lou Reed
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    I hope to see Arya as a Warg in season 4. They will be looking for cool stuff for Arya later in the story, and the story with blind Arya is too cool to skip.

    Expect to see Coldhands in s4. Brans arc needs something.

    Maybe we will se some Arianne, Arys Oakheart and Mycella scenes from Dorne.

    Other than that, full steam on all the Kings Landing stuff. It will be awesome.

  242. Jentario
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    Seanachie:
    Lars,

    I’m holding out hope that they don’t pass the books until the ship actually goes down.If S4 is 90% material from ASoS, then I think S5 & S6 are the huge combined FeastDance story.If that happens, then GRRM has until the end of 2016 to finish TWoW so that it’s available for D&D to start plotting S7.That’s a long time.

    My hope is he’s able to finish TWoW by the end of 2014, and then even if it takes him until the end of 2017 to finish the draft of ADoS, D&D can write and shoot whatever season we’re on at that point, and it can sit in the can until after the last book comes out.

    This is what I want to happen, and you can’t kill my dream :)

    Very smart. They could probably get a giant boost in the budget for the final season and work long and hard on CGI and post-production. Maybe they can even get an extra two episodes from HBO. Everything would already be filmed so there won’t be the risk of losing actors and the end product could be mouthwateringly amazing. Obviously D&D will need a lot of insight from GRRM and the season will be delayed by a year and maybe a year and a half to coincide with the release of the book. That would surely solve some problems. Maybe in the in between period we could get a Robert’s Rebellion season produced by others (but with some recurring overhauled sets) or at the very least Dunk and Egg which is already being discussed.

    GRRM still needs to finish TWOW by the beginning of 2015 if he wants to have enough time to write ADOS, though.

  243. Trearu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:45 am | Permalink

    I would really hate it if they change the killing of Shae. Especially since the setup of the show is so much superior to the book.

    Tyrion’s whitewashing just makes the scene more dramatic.

    They set the foundation of their drifting apart with the diamond misunderstanding.
    Unaware of that her betrayal will hit Tyrion just much harder, so her appearance in Tywin’s chamber will push him far enough over the edge.

  244. Arian
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:03 am | Permalink

    i am pretty sure were gonna see royal wedding and greyjoy’s kingsmoot + wildlings march on the wall . and im pretty sure red viper’s fight with mountain will take place in episode 9 :)

  245. Joan Català
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    Ep.1
    General recap.
    Coldhands.
    Ep.2
    Battle at Castle Black (if it isn’t merged with Mance’s siege).
    Red Viper arrives in King’s Landing.
    Ep.3
    Balon dies. Asha recalled home.
    Dany reaches Mereen.
    Ep.4
    Purple Wedding.
    Mance starts his siege.
    Ep.5
    Dany reaches Mereen.
    Ep.6
    Tyrion’s trial starts.
    Sansa arrives in the Vale.
    Ep.7
    Dany takes Mereen.
    Kingsmoot.
    Ep.8
    Stannis defeats the Wildlings.
    Ep.9
    LF kills Lysa. Audience learns that it was Lysa who killed Jon Arryn.
    Tyrion asks for trial by combat.
    Red Viper vs The Mountain.
    Ep.10
    Jon is elected.
    Tyrion kills Tywin (and Shae)
    Lady Stoneheart.

  246. Jentario
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    Ah what the hell, here’s how I would do it:

    1. Oathkeeper- Jaime is given his sword, Tywin disowns him and he has a conversation with Sansa about getting her home, Brienne is imprisoned under Loras’ request. Wedding arrivals at King’s Landing include Overyn and Mace. Jon recovers from his wounds and confesses his crimes against his oaths and his oath to Qhorin. Arya dreams of her mother in the river, but the dream is interrupted by some very familiar BWBs, she then wakes up and has a scene with the Hound about her list of names, Dany is mocked by the Slavers of Meereen and sets on a new path.

    2. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken- the Red Viper makes his intentions clear to Tyrion, Bran is told the story of the Knight of the Laughing tree, Stavossandre leave Dragonstone and pack some dragonglass for the voyage, the Thenns plan an assault on Castle Black after meating with the remnants of Tormund’s group. Balon gets pushed off a bridge. Reek- bowed, bent and broken- is taken for a trip to Moat Cailin as one of Randay’s dogs.

    3. Love is Death to Duty- The assault on Catle Black would frame the episode, along with a conversation between Loras and Jaime where he convinces Loras to free Brienne- stating she didn’t kill Renly “You can’t kill who you love”. Ygritte dies because of Jon’s decisions. Melisandre makes it super clear that Joffrey will die (after Balon’s death) and team Dragonstone disappears for half a season. New Iron Islanders get introduced and Yara returns for her father’s funeral, only to suspect Euron. Dany arrives at Meereen and Jorah makes himself too comfortable.

    4. Till Death do us Part (lol, not really)- mostly the Purple Wedding but a few other scenes. Jaime’s plan to send Sansa off with Brienne after the wedding gets screwed when someone else beet him to the punch. Dany sends Barristan to fight the Hero of Meereen.

    5. It Rhymes with Freak- Yara calls a Kingsmoot and Euron complies, Theon betrays his men at Moat Cailin, Ramsay meets with Roose and fArya is sent out of KL while real Arya and the Hound are taken captive by the Mountain’s men, Tyrion is locked up and undergoes his first trial. Jon sees the huge battalion of wildlings amassed behind the Wall, which he must defend. Joffrey’s funeral, in which Oberyn will make sure to show how happy he is. A three way with Oberyn and some sexposition about his relationship with the dead Elia.

    6. Coldhands- Bran and company are saved by a mysterious man with an elk, Jon and Sam defend the Wall from the siege with no hope in sight (ice barrels included). Dany has a war council and finds out the only way to take Meereen is from the sewers. At Kingslanding, Shae speaks with Cersei and Oberyn requests vengeance from Tywin. Jaime speaks with Tyrion at his cell and fucks Cersei on Joffrey’s cask. Arya and the Hound hear rumors of the new BWB leader- Lady Stoneheart, in captivity.

    7. Crossroads- Arya and the Hound escape from their captors at the inn, Jon and Tyrion are given trials and both make a choice (Tyrion wants a trial by battle and Jon decides to kill Mance, Brienne searches for evidence of Sansa’s whereabouts in Kings Landing, the Kingsmoot (the last ten minutes of the episode). Dany learns of Jorah’s betrayal and sends him and Barry on a mission to take Meereen through the sewers. Oberyn supports Tyrion.

    8. All Men Must Die- Arya abandons the Hound and sets sail for Braavos, Bran and co are outnumbered by wights but are saved by the CotF, Jon is freed from the ice cells and prepares to face a daunting task, Tyrion’s trial by battle. Meereen is taken by Dany and she has a scene with Daario.

    9. The Giant and the Snow Castle- the final Battle at the Wall being the center of this episode, with other “catching-up” scenes. Jon is sent to barter with Mance and the battle begins around them, Stannis saves the day (includes the scene if the giant fighting Donal Noye). In the mean time we get Tyrion sent to the black cells, and most importantly Sansa builds her snow castle (which gets toppled by Robin) and gets kissed by LF (which Lysa sees).

    10. Only A Cat of a Different Cloak- Arya gets to the House of Black and White and meets the kindly man, Bran meets the three-eyed crow, Jon is given a decision by Stannisbut decides to stay at the Wall- where he is elected Lord Comnander. Ramsay, Roose and Reek make it to Winterfell where they wait for Ramsay’s bride. Brienne is sent on her Journey and Dany exiles Jorah after deciding to stay in Meereen. Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae and escapes, Sansa is summoned to speak with Lysa- “Only Cat”. Lady Stoneheart executes a Frey.

    Wow. So much awesomeness awaits next season…

    EDIT: fixed some issues!

  247. Trearu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:14 am | Permalink

    What I really love about the show is the removement of filler … unneeded plotlines, characters, places,… which seems to give what is left more depth.

    Shireen and Davos, Genry, Arya and Tywin, the mountain (somehow), …

    So the introduction of Moat Cailin seems a little out of character for D. & D..
    Theon betraying some faceless ironborn would be really inconvenient is he could just betray Yaras, which are conveniently just on the way to the Dreadfort. Betraying the ones that came to save you …

  248. Jentario
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    Trearu:
    What I really love about the show is the removement of filler … unneeded plotlines, characters, places,… which seems to give what is left more depth.

    Shireen and Davos, Genry, Arya and Tywin, the mountain (somehow), …

    So the introduction of Moat Cailin seems a little out of character for D. & D..
    Theon betrayingsome faceless ironborn would be really inconvenient is he could just betray Yaras, which are conveniently just on the way to the Dreadfort. Betraying the ones that came to save you …

    Nice catch. I can really see that happening.

  249. Nic
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown:
    Probably a long shot, but I think there’s a case to be made for combining Arianne (if she comes to KL with Oberyn, as many have speculated) with Taena of Myr. For one thing, their descriptions and mannerisms are strikingly similar. It reduces character/story bloat (I can hear the Darkstar fans crying out in terror), and it helps fill a major power void in KL for season 5.

    Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer are killing it, but I don’t think they’re enough to carry KL alone. Yes, I am well aware that the Martells despise the Lannisters as much as the Tyrells, but having Arianne act as a double agent of sorts could open up a lot of interesting possibilities.

    It works out well for continuity’s sake, too. Arianne can slip away during Cersei’s arrest, like Taena does, and head south to rendezvous with Griff & Son.

    That’s actually an interesting suggestion.

  250. Rain
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    I think they’ll have a lot more time to spend on smaller scenes or implied scenes which’ll be awesome. I hope they spent them on the right people instead of stupid things, and write them better. I want Sansa to be used as a POV character like she is meant to be. I want more Jaime and Cersei and the altar scene, I want maybe some Jaime and Joffrey and more Tommen!

    I don’t really care about Bran or Dany. And she treats Jorah like dirt, so it’s not going to be a huge shocker that she exiles him. They should spend some time making them really close again.

    Anddddddddd…. Arya, Bran, yeah. There’s lots of people who have not a lot left to. do. D:

    BUT I CAN’T WAIT FOR OBERYN! Bring on the Martells!

  251. Summer Is Coming
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    Dany’s Story:
    ep 31: They could start by talking about Meereen and if it is worth it (the same question many viewers have), and the end it with the crucified children, wich will make Dany and the viewers vow to end slavery in Slaver’s Bay.

    The bulk of the other episodes will be the siege of Meereen, maybe a fight scene between their champion and Jorah/Barristan, the Jorah and Dany kissing scene, the awkward love triangle between them and Daario. the reveal of Jorah’s deception. taking Meereen, Jorah’s exile, and Dany deciding to learn to rule as a queen.

    This final decision could be fueled by more Dany & Barrsitan scenes where they talk about her brother, and especially about her father’s madness. This may make Dany reconsider if in fact she is able to rule, and cast some fears in her and her abilities (especially after her conquests, which will deff make her feel quite invincible)

    This season 4, will make a good opportunity for Dany go backwards with the help of Barristan. S3 was all about show! Dracarys, Mhysa, but not so many deep, emotional, contemplative scenes. I think in ep 8 we had that bath scene, when she was talking to Missandei. but just that.

    S5 could deal with the mystery of the harpy, the locking of the dragons, she doubting more and more about her, relationship with Daario, more problems in Meereen, killings of the unsullied, introduction of the court in Meereen, and the season could end with her deciding to marry Hizdar so that there could be peace.

    S6 more focus on barristan as he tries to resolve things in Meereen; the yunkay and quarth alliance against Dany, the arrival of the armies, Danny marries Hizdar, the pits, Tyrion in the pits, sees Dany; Drogon comes back, awesome scene when Dany first mounts Drogon, them leaving; dany back in the Dothraky sea; her sickness; possible visions (cameos?) with Drogo and Viserys; she meeting the Dothraky hoard.

  252. Nic
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:43 am | Permalink

    Jentario,

    Wow indeed. That is an impressive summary.

  253. King DBC
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Check out my predictions for the next two seasons…
    http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1f8fpo/spoilers_all_seasons_4_5_outline/
    I tried to keep minimal books 4&5 in Season 4 and tried to keep Dany interesting in Meereen, getting her ass out of there ASAP!

  254. King DBC
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:00 am | Permalink

    Some of my thoughts have been thrown off course by the S3 finale…

  255. Kissed by Glasgow
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    I’ve got a few stray observations/queries about where things might be going, nothing as in depth as some of the really interesting ideas about season 4 on this thread though.

    With all the talk of the streamlining of the Greyjoys, can I ask this question: does Balon definitely have to die now? Is there any reason why he couldn’t take over Euron’s role in the book? Other than Melissandra’s burning of the leeches I’m struggling to think of any reason why he has to die. Of course there’s character points which people could argue about in terms of him effectively taking over from Euron but in terms of story I’m not sure there’s a great difference. Balon starts a rebellion then dies, then Euron becomes king and starts another one. Could Euron’s rebellion not just be a continuation of Balon’s? Victarion could still be introduced but in opposition to his brother Balon instead? Or am I forgetting something completely obvious from the books which would make this impossible? Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have it the way it is in the books with Euron and Victarion but keeping Balon would save them having to introduce new a new character and actor, and I get the impression that things are going to start deviating a lot more from the books in certain places from now on in.

    Do we think that Brienne will get to meet Sansa in kings landing seeing as she has arrived or would that be another impossibility? Seems that as soon as Brienne arrives she’s going to seek out Sansa, so she must either get detained for a period up until the immediate aftermath of the wedding or she will surely come into contact with Sansa.

    Finally, in terms of Braavos, I’ve always wondered how they will do this in terms of the TV show. With it’s canals and lagoon it sounds very like Venice. Does anyone think we’ll a new location shoot with this (in season 5 rather than 4)? Perhaps not actually Venice (although that would be amazing) but another European city with canals? If they did have another location to shoot it surely couldn’t be justified only for two characters (Sam and Arya)? Perhaps Tyrion will go to Braavos instead of Pentos so that they can get their money’s worth from a new location?

    Just hypothesizing obviously!! I’m quite excited to see where things go from here. In the books, the narrative is pretty tight up until the Red Wedding, then the stories and characters seem to disperse much more. It’s going to be interesting to see how they deal with it. I expect season 5 and 6 will have some major surprises even for us book readers.

  256. Kissed by Glasgow
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Also, where do people think Bronn’s story is going now? He leaves the books around this point (I think?). I always thought his departure was disappointingly low-key for such a good character. How could he fit into the later seasons? He didn’t really do much this season, but it’d be surprised if they just fade him out like Martin does in the books. Any chance he could become one of Cersei’s lovers? Or would that be too over the top? If they do keep him on they’ve definitely need to get him more involved in a storyline next season. It would be pointless to have him just hanging around drinking and shagging like in the last one.

  257. Red Hound
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Give us the Greyjoys or give us death.

  258. Jentario
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    Nic:
    Jentario,

    Wow indeed. That is an impressive summary.

    Thanks. I think it will really keep things interesting and make each episode a big step forward in the story, unlike season 3 which was mostly filler.

  259. Ser Tahu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    WARNING: THIS IS GOING TO BE A INCREDIBLY LONG POST.

    Let me preface this post with the following:
    1) To all of those who are saying “it is confirmed that Game of Thrones will be 7 seasons, 8 max.” – One of those statements was implied to mean AT LEAST 7, and the other was an offhanded estimate. Neither were definitive statements set in stone. As long as the series continues to make money, and as long as there is story to tell, it will continue. D&D will do whatever is necessary to make a great ASoIaF adaptation. As for HBO, as long as the show is making money they will never turn around and say “Hey, even though you are making money and the story requires 2-3 more seasons to tell it properly, you have hit 7 seasons so you have to end it.”

    2) concerning Daenerys: I believe that, chronologically speaking, her last ADwD chapter and her first few TWoW chapters happen at the same time as the Quentyn-dragon/Barristan-Hizdahr schemes, as well as the battle for Meereen, so this post is assuming that this theory is true.

    3) As far as Dorne is concerned: I believe that the only characters who will be cut are the four youngest sand snakes, and some of the minor characters. I believe that all of the Martells + the four oldest sand snakes + Areo, Arys and Darkstar will make it in. Also, I believe that all of Quentyn’s companions will be combined into one.

    Anyway, in this post I will try and predict what will happen in each episode of season 4 (or roughly what episode some events will happen in), and then in vague terms put forward the way that I think they should tackle AFfC and ADwD/seasons 5-7.

    Firstly, for the less featured storylines:
    (note, these ones will probably only appear a few times throughout the season)
    first few episodes: A scene or two with Bran and co, and we get some backstory (possibly the knight of the laughing tree). We might get a scene with Rickon and Osha as well. Arya and the Hound travel towards the Vale to get to Lysa. In the Vale, we may see Lysa wed Petyr, then Petyr will leave saying that he has to report back to Kings Landing, but he will return. We may get a scene or two of the Dragonstone crew preparing to leave for the Wall. We get another scene or two of Theon torture, and he is further broken. We get a scene of YarAsha approaching the Dreadfort.

    middle few episodes: Walder Frey sends Lame Lothar and/or Black Walder in search of the Blackfish. We may also see Roose got to Kings Landing to set up the fake Arya storyline. Bran’s group stay in an abandoned Wildling village. Wight’s attack them and they are saved by Coldhands (similar to how Coldhands saves Sam in the book). Rickon and Osha reach the Last Hearth, but someone raises the alarm and alerts the Bolton’s. We may get a scene of Stannis and co on the way to the Wall. Arya and the Hound find out that the Vale has declared for Joffrey, so they have to turn back. They later come across Polliver in the inn, and after the fight Arya regains needle and leaves Sandor for dead. She boards a ship with her coin. We see YarAsha lay siege to the Dreadfort, but she is eventually repelled. Ramsay punishes Theon for it, but then they get word of Rickon’s whereabouts and Ramsay decides to go on a hunt. YarAsha heads back to the Iron Islands, defeated.

    last few episodes: A scene or two with Bran, Coldhands and co, Coldhands reveals that he was sent by the three eyed raven. Ramsay and Theon hunt Rickon and Osha, they either fail or Theon saves them. Osha realises that Rickon won’t even be safe in the North. Arya has a scene on the ship where they are nearing Braavos, and her season ends with her looking at the Titan which she can see in the distance. Defeated, YarAsha returns to the Iron Islands, but either just before or just after she returns, Balon is killed and we see the Silence in the background, setting up the Kingsmoot for next season (why would they want to have it sooner?). Brienne comes across Gendry after leaving Kings Landing, and they travel together.

    Now, for the main storylines:
    1: Jon alerts the Night’s Watch of the attack. Mance is alerted of the failing effort of Tormund’s group and Jon’s betrayal. Small council scene, Tywin informs them he has offered small council seats to the Reach and Dorne and that Tyrion is to welcome to Dornish. Brienne is imprisoned for her allegiance to Renly then Catelyn, which Jaime protests Daenerys decides to head to Meereen. Episode ends with the Brotherhood finding the corpse of Catelyn, and possibly shows her revival.

    2: The Watch prepares for battle. Mance sends Styr to reinforce Tormund. Oberyn and Mance arrive, and we get some backstory on the tensions between their houses. Wedding preparations begin. Daenerys finds the children pointing the way to Meereen at the end of the episode.

    3: The battle at Castle Black happens, Tormund escapes beyond the Wall. Oberyn and Tyrion become friends, and there are some pre-wedding scenes. Brienne and Loras talk about Renly, and it results in Loras joining the Kingsguard. The episode ends with Jon finding the dying Ygritte.
    3 or 4: There is a scene on the road to Meereen.
    4: Tormund reports to Mance, but they decide to go ahead with the siege anyway. There is some aftermath of the battle at Castle Black. The Royal Wedding takes a decent amount of the episode. The episode ends with Joffrey dying, Dontos helping Sansa escape in the panic (D&D said we will see him again), and Tyrion being arrested for the murder.

    5: The episode starts with Dontos taking Sansa to Littlefinger’s ship, and it is revealed the Dontos was in his service. There is aftermath of the wedding, and the city is searched for Sansa (without success), Tyrion is thrown in one of the black cells. Daenerys reaches Meereen, and it is defended by the Stormcrows.

    6: The siege of the Wall begins. Jon fights from the top of the Wall. The first part of Tyrion’s trial happens. Sansa has her hair dyed on the boat. Brienne is released by Jaime and told to find Sansa. In an attempt to win over the Stormcrows, Daenerys gives them gold and wine (the Stormcrows being represented by Sallor the Bald as the captain, and Brown Ben Plumm as second in charge).

    7: While the Stormcrows are drunk Daenerys’ forces attack them. The battle does not go on for long before the Stormcrows surrender. Sallor is dead, leaving Brown Ben as their captain. Janos and Alliser arrive at the Wall and arrest/interrogate Jon, and order him to treat with Mance. Sansa and Petyr arrive in the Vale Tyrion’s trial part 2, Shae testifies against him (assuming that the suggestions that Tywin will hang her are wrong), and Tyrion demands a trial by combat only to be informed that his champion will be facing Gregor Clegane.

    8: Bronn refuses to champion Tyrion but Oberyn offers to instead. Sansa and Petyr arrive at the Eyrie. Jon treats with Mance, but they are interrupted by horns and an army crushes the Wildlings. The episode ends with chants of ‘Stannis!’
    8 or 9: Daenerys enters Meereen. The truth about Jorah is revealed and he is banished.
    9: The aftermath of the siege, Stannis is hailed as a hero. The courtyard scene in the Eyrie. The episode ends with Oberyn vs Gregor and Tyrion being sentenced to death.

    10: Stannis orders the Watch to elect a new Lord Commander, setting up the storyline for next season. Lysa goes insane and Petyr kills her. Daenerys gets revenge for the children on the road to Meereen, and decides she has to stay in Meereen to protect her children. Jaime and Varys free Tyrion. Tyrion kills Shae (assuming Tywin doesn’t hang her) and Tywin. He and Varys then board a ship (I believe Varys will join Tyrion on the trip to Pentos so that he has something to do). Lothar Frey and/or Black Walder are found and hung my Catelyn.

    CONTINUES ON THE NEXT POST

  260. Ser Tahu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    PART 2: SEASON 5+

    And now a summary of how I want them to do seasons 5-7:
    season 5: Daenerys’ storyline is focused on two things; the shadow war/her trying to stabilised Meereen, and her losing control of her dragons (All of the ‘I want to fuck Daario’ stuff is minimised). Her season ends with her locking up the dragons, and the news that Yunkai/Qarth/Volantis have declared war on her. Dorne has the Queenmaker plot, climaxing with its failure. Doran sends Quentyn on ‘a mission’. Quentyn’s storline ends with him signing on with the sellsword company in Volantis (the viewer assumes that he is trying to usurp Arianne). Tyrion and Varys meet with Illyrio, and Tyrion goes on to meet Young Griff. Their story climaxes with the Stone men, and ends with Jorah capturing Tyrion. The Iron Islands – The kingsmoot takes place, and it ends with YarAsha fleeing back to Deepwood Motte and Euron sending Victarion to Meereen. The Night’s Watch has it’s election in the first few episodes, and then it is about Jon establishing himself, manning the castles, and dealing with the scheming Alliser and Janos, ends with his beheading of Janos. Stannis and Davos remain at the Wall all season. Kings Landing is all about Cersei screwing everything up everything, and we might see Bronn replace the Kettleblacks. Jaime leaves the capital fairly early and climaxes with the siege of Riverrun. Brienne and co end with Lady Stoneheart. Bran and co reach the cave by the end of this season. Rickon and Osha reach Skagos, but we see little of them. The situation in the Vale is expanded on, and the Petyr vs Lords of the Vale storyline is shown in more detail. We get Arya’s AFfC chapters + invented stuff. We may also get the Dragonstone siege. We may get a bit more Theon torture, and then the removal of the Ironborn from Moat Cailin. Due to my predicted delay in the Night’s Watch election, I don’t believe Sam will be sent off to Oldtown until about half way through the season, and it will end with their arrival in Braavos. They may kill of Maester Aemon early, though, due to the age of his actor and the increasing risk of him dying of old age.

    season 6:: Daenerys’ storyline has three main focuses; her marital situation (with Quentyn getting into the city about half way through the season), the plague, and the enemies that have besieged the city. The season ends with the Daenerys flying off on Drogon in the fighting pits, after she has married Hizdahr. Dorne – Quentyn gets told to infiltrate Meereen, while Doran explains his mission to Arianne. In the end, two of the three sandsnakes is sent to Kings Landing, and the third sent after the Darkstar (with the fourth, Sarella, in Oldtown). Aegon wins over the Golden Company, and we see his voyage to Westeros and the start of his conquest. Tyrion’s storyline goes from Volantis to him being in the fighting pit. The Ironborn – we see some of Euron’s conquest, and most of Victarion’s voyage. Jon spends most of his season treating with the Wildlings while dealing with increasing discontent among his men, and we may get to see the Hardhome catastrophe. Stannis conquers Deepwood Motte and heads towards Winterfell. Kings Landing has the whole Cersei vs the High Septon storyline, ending with her downfall. Jaime’s season ends with Lady Stoneheart (this seems to be becoming a recurring theme :P). Bran’s storyline is barely seen, but it rounds off his Dance material and starts his TWoW stuff. Davos is sent to win over northern Lords by Stannis early in the season, and this season ends with the Rickon reveal. We may get a Rickon in Skagos scene. Sansa and co leave the Eyrie due to the coming winter, and the Harry the Heir storyline starts, so Sansa will start to go into TWoW stuff. We get Arya’s ADwD chapters + invented stuff. Theon, Ramsay and Roose may go towards Winterfell for the wedding, and we will get a lot of Theon’s ADwD stuff, ending with him saving fake Arya. As for Samwell, we will likely get the rest of his AFfC chapters in this season.

    season 7: Meereen: first half of the season is the Quentyn-dragons plot and the usurp Hizdahr plot, and the second half climaxes with the battle. Daenerys returns to the city with her khalasar either near the end or just after the battle, and with her enemies defeated she declares that it is time to go to Westeros. Jon starts meddling in the affairs of the realm with Karstarks and Boltons, and he gets killed about half way through. Stannis vs the Bolton’s may be the episode 4 climax. Both storylines then head into TWoW material. In Kings Landing we see more of Kevan ruling the capital, but it heads into TWoW territory fairly early so we will see the return of Varys about half way through. Theon will be found by Stannis’ camp early on, and then it will go into TWoW stuff. The following storylines use TWoW material essentially from the start: Jaime/Brienne, Arianne/Aegon, the Ironborn, Davos/Rickon, Sansa/Petyr, Arya, Bran and Dorne.

    Then, depending on how meaty TWoW is, it could be either:
    season 7: TWoW part 1 (and the remaining loose ends from ADwD)
    season 8: TWoW part 2 + ADoS part 1
    season 9: finale.
    OR
    season 7: TWoW part 1 (and the remaining loose ends from ADwD)
    season 8: TWoW part 2
    season 9: ADoS part 1 (and any remaining loose ends from TWoW)
    season 10: finale

  261. Adam
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    Jentario,

    I like that a lot! Very nicely done. I think next season will be broadly similar to that. My one real nitpick is Arya’s story – I think(/hope) her arc will end in episode 10 with “valar morghulis” and her boarding the boat. That sets up a great cliffhanger for the next season, the force of which would really be taken away if she arrived at Braavos in the finale. Plus I’m not sure they would construct a whole big Braavos set – possibly filmed in an entirely new location – just for one episode, especially when they already have so much on their plate next season.

    Also you might be right about Bran meeting the CoF already, but jeez, his story is going to be moving along quickly compared to the books, ain’t it? He could very well be out of material by the end of Season 5, and if TWoW isn’t out by then… well, let’s hope it will be :)

  262. Adam
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    WARNING: THIS IS GOING TO BE A INCREDIBLY LONG POST.

    Let me preface this post with the following:
    1) To all of those who are saying “it is confirmed that Game of Thrones will be 7 seasons, 8 max.” – One of those statements was implied to mean AT LEAST 7, and the other was an offhanded estimate. Neither were definitive statements set in stone. As long as the series continues to make money, and as long as there is story to tell, it will continue. D&D will do whatever is necessary to make a great ASoIaF adaptation. As for HBO, as long as the show is making money they will never turn around and say “Hey, even though you are making money and the story requires 2-3 more seasons to tell it properly, you have hit 7 seasons so you have to end it.”

    HEAR HEAR!

  263. Wolfman27
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    typis:
    So both of the essays believe season 5 is going to include 2 books or did i get something wrong.I mean yeah, compared to ASoS AFfC and ADwD are not as dramatical and exciting but there are still some major events to happen that most certainly could mark the end of an season, so there would absolutely be no reason to show winds of winter material in season 5 already:
    >Jons death (end of season 6)
    > Aegon is still alive (season 5)
    >Daenerys wedding (season 5)
    >Beheading of Mance Rayder (season 5)
    > Danys first Dragonflight (Season 6)
    > Cersei being imprisoned (season 5)
    >Cerseis walk of shame (season 6)
    >Return of Euron Greyjoy + Kingsmoot (season 5)
    >Death of Quentyn (season 6)

    Maybe some of them are not as bad ass as neds beheading or the red wedding but they would still do as a season 9.I believe season 4 will deal with the rest of ASoS´plot that didn´t happen so far and seasons 5 and 6 will show book 4 and 5 only without the geographical split.And since GRRM will most likely need another 2 years to finish Winds of Winter D&D will most likely do their best to stretch storylines, add some extra material that wasn´t seen in the book, add another lovestory that annoyes everyone (since Robb and Talisa are gone) until mr Martin is done with his books.

    Mance Rayder was never beheaded. Rattleshirt was made to look like Mance with Melisandre’s power and then put in a cage, shot with arrows, and burned.

  264. jentario
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    Adam:
    Jentario,

    I like that a lot! Very nicely done. I think next season will be broadly similar to that. My one real nitpick is Arya’s story – I think(/hope) her arc will end in episode 10 with “valar morghulis” and her boarding the boat. That sets up a great cliffhanger for the next season, the force of which would really be taken away if she arrived at Braavos in the finale. Plus I’m not sure they would construct a whole big Braavos set – possibly filmed in an entirely new location – just for one episode, especially when they already have so much on their plate next season.

    Also you might be right about Bran meeting the CoF already, but jeez, his story is going to be moving along quickly compared to the books, ain’t it? He could very well be out of material by the end of Season 5, and if TWoW isn’t out by then… well, let’s hope it will be :)

    I agree about both points. I think D&D did confirm they are heading deep into ADWD territory with Bran next season (which is problematic).

  265. mags giantsbabe
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Speculation: to what extent they will be throwing in references to prophecy (Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised and its supposed importance to the story line); allusions to or suggestions of the Great Other, etc.

    Hoping for: the Red Viper or other characters talking about Lyanna, Rhaegar, Elia, more Howland Reed (also via Bran’s dreams); a cameo later by Sean Bean, praying under a Weirwood; Val (at least).

  266. Courtjezter
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    I see things happening a little differently to other people, i am not going to give an episode by episode breakdown as i need to re-read ASOS to properly get the order of events in my head. I see though that episodes eight and nine are going to be big ones. I believe that ep8 will have the Viper vs Mountain fight and all of episode nine will cover the attack on Castle Black, with intervention from Stannis. Prior to this you will get some minor skirmishes at the Castle, to keep interest level high there.
    I think we need to look less and less at the order of events in the source material and view them in a more fluid fashion from now on.

  267. babar
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: 1) To all of those who are saying “it is confirmed that Game of Thrones will be 7 seasons, 8 max.” – One of those statements was implied to mean AT LEAST 7, and the other was an offhanded estimate. Neither were definitive statements set in stone. As long as the series continues to make money, and as long as there is story to tell, it will continue. D&D will do whatever is necessary to make a great ASoIaF adaptation. As for HBO, as long as the show is making money they will never turn around and say “Hey, even though you are making money and the story requires 2-3 more seasons to tell it properly, you have hit 7 seasons so you have to end it.”

    Here’s what D&D said in their most recent interview:

    “We can’t wait too long because of the kids,” Benioff says. “Issac’s [Hempsted Wright] voice is changing. Everyone is getting bigger. We have this wonderful cast, but we don’t have an infinite amount of time … We don’t want to become a show that outstays its welcome and tries to turn each book into three seasons. Part of what we love about these books and the show is this sense of momentum and building toward something. If we tried to turn this into a 10-season show we’d strangle the golden goose.

  268. Ser Tahu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    babar,

    Well, that is quite the worrying interview :/. I can understand the problem of renewing all of the contracts, however their point about the kids getting older is a bit of a non-issue. The thing that worries me the most, though, is that if they do rush things then they will catch up to Martin, and that is a horrible situation for everyone. I like to think that they are being modest, and trying to put pressure on Martin, but that interview does have me worried.

  269. sunspear
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Some thoughts on the theories presented here:

    -The Battle of the Wall isn’t one fight, it’s a long drawn out siege. It won’t all be concentrated into one episode, and especially not episode 9. Stannis’s arrival/Jon failing to kill Mance will likely happen in episode 7 so they have time for the LC election story.

    -I do like the idea that Brienne trains Jaime to give her something to do until she departs KL, but I don’t see Bronn replacing Ilyn Payne. Jaime isn’t stupid enough to trust some random sellsword with the knowledge of his fighting skill or about him and Cersei.

    -Asha will most likely receive the news that Balon has died at some point in her journey and the show will make a big deal about her decision to turn back. They’ll do the Kingsmoot this season.

    No way the show chickens out on Tyrion killing Shae.

  270. Unbowd UnbentUnHodor
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    Personally id rather it finish on its 7th season on a high note. People arent going to wait around forever while dany fucks around in Essos. My brothers already asking when she gets to westeros :/ everyone should stop saying 9 or 10 seasons..its ridiculous. Combining aFfC and DwD into one/one and a half seasons is for the best and I personally dont care if the show finishes first because the show is what got me into the books.

  271. Sami
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Last season they announced that Season 4 would have a battle that would be bigger then Blackwater… My prediction is that episode 9 is always the biggest episode in the season…. Nedd starks death… Blackwater…. The red wedding…

    My thoughts is that in Season 4 episode 9 we will see…. The battle on the wall… and much like blackwater we will have a mirror in the snow when Stannis army comes to save the nightswatch. … I think Episode 10 will be Tyrion killing Tywin and getting out of Kingslanding which would be perfect for season 5 to start with Tyrion on a boat in the sea which to me means that the death of Joffrey will happen possibly in episode 5 or 6. Also from the look of Theons story now as Reek…. and Asha travelling across the sea… one will wonder are they going to bring that storyline in now instead of later in the books? or maybe balons death happens when she is on her way by sea and she has to go back to postpone it a bit?… I mean personally I think Season 5 could be when Mance saves Ramsey? … I think the introduction of a few good characters would be great… and I am looking forward to some events to occur! Valar Morgulis… and the night is dark anf full of terror.

  272. Sami
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    Sami,

    I forgotten to say that I think on episode 9 the whole episode will be about the battle

  273. mariamb18
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Agree – Tyrion has to kill Shae. It is a critical part of his story.

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Yes, yes, yes.Chekov’s necklace!They make a lot of small changes, but they don’t mess with the big stuff.It would be so stupid to get rid of the darkening of Tyrion.They might cut out that singer he gets killed, but not the killing of Shae.Plus, it’s essential to see what a hypocrite Tywin was.

    Chekov’s necklace is what convinces me that he will kill her. Agree that evidence of Tywin’s hypocrisy is important.

  274. voiceareason
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown,

    Absolutely Perfect!

  275. JoshT
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Mormegil,

    Yeah, they’re no longer slaves. Doesn’t mean she won’t stay and rule over a slave free city.

  276. voiceareason
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    The show is definitely going to catch up with Martin. He’s only written 400 pages for WoW so far, and it took him 6 years to finish DwD when he had already written half of it. DwD and FfC don’t have nearly enough decent material for more than a season and a half. HBO has also announced that they aren’t going to go on hiatus.

    It’s happening, whether you’re comfortable with it or not.

  277. Incredulous
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Three seasons of Dany in Mereen??? The show would be cancelled! Get her out of there as quickly as possible!

  278. Ser Tahu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    Incredulous,

    Who ever said anything about 3 seasons?

  279. babar
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    I think they’re right, though. Trying to stretch out things too long would be a huge mistake. And I’m not too worried about that, they proved once again this year that they’re very capable writers.

    See the bright side of things: no matter what happens with the books, the show will probably offer us a true ending.

  280. Incredulous
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Two seasons is still too much!

  281. Ser Tahu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    babar,

    You mean the books will offer a true ending?

    And the reason I am worried about the show is that, although cuts are necessary, excessive cuts would turn it into a jumbled mess and cause them to catch up to the books, which would make the show even more of a jumbled mess. In the short term, yes, there are risks to spending two seasons in AFfC + ADwD (and a half of a third season for some North/Night’s Watch/post-Daenerys Meereen stuff), but there are far, far greater long term risks for excessively cutting and rushing things.

  282. Eleanor
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    The NW election is complicated (Stannis threatening to step in, the impasse between two OK candidates letting an awful one through) and ends with Sam half-lying to both of them. Season finales check in with EVERYBODY. This means the NW election can’t be final episode. Probably the penultimate. And maybe Sam can be sent off with Aemon and Gilly’s baby (assuming they keep the Oldtown storyline) in episode 10.

  283. Door
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Sean C.:
    John,

    Loras is not going to have Brienne arrested in the show.He’s already said he doesn’t believe she had anything to do with Renly’s death.

    Thank you! Finally someone who remembers that. I’m not fond of every choice the showrunners make, but I want to believe they won’t start retconning their own changes. If Brienne is arrested it must be for another reason. My personal favourite is that she’s arrested either trying to protect Sansa, take her away or because she calls the Lannisters out on their bollocks.

  284. Ser Tahu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Door,

    They wouldn’t arrest her because they think she killed Renly, they would arrest her because she supported Renly (and Cat)…

  285. babar
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: You mean the books will offer a true ending?

    Nope, I mean the show. I’ve lost faith in GRRM’s ability to conclude his story.

    Ser Tahu: excessive cuts would turn it into a jumbled mess

    Hmm.. not really, it will just tighten the storyline.. which is a good thing. Not cutting enough stuff would turn the TV show into a “jumbled mess”.

    Ser Tahu: but there are far, far greater long term risks for excessively cutting and rushing things.

    The story barely moves in AFFC and the first half of ADWD. Turning those 2 books into 1.5 seasons on screen isn’t what I would call “rushing things”.

  286. fotodevil
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    I will give my thought on how the season will open.

    We see an overhead close-up shot of rippling water, a river running dark with mud and blood. Slowly, a body drifts into the shot, feet first and face down. The body appears to be a female, as a torn and barely recognizable dress clings to it.

    We hear splashing coming from the riverbank, and 2 pairs of hands reach out to pull the body to the shore. We never see the face of the men pulling the body from the river, but as they set the body on the shore and turn it on its back, we learn it is Catelyn Stark, her face bloated and disfigured, barely recognizable. A large gash runs across her throat.

    We hear a voice off screen, “It’s her”.

    /Scene

    We see no more of Cat/Lady Stoneheart until the season finale.

  287. Incredulous
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    FfC and DwD are jumbled messes, that’s the whole problem. That’s the reason why they need to make massive cuts and get through that material as quickly as possible.

  288. Rhys
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    I think the first scene of the season could be Jaqen killing Balon.

  289. Trearu
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    It is really strange how many think next season would just contain the second half of Storm of Swords, when so many storylines are almost at the ending of this book. If you remove all the filler from a Feast of Crows (especially Brians) almost nothing is left. So I am quiet convinced in the end they will make 3 seasons out of 3 books.

    My predictions:

    New characters:
    Tyr
    Mance wife
    Mace
    the Viper
    some female companion for him (remaining Martells remain faceless until the next season)
    some companion for Yara, maybe Aeron
    (maybe) her other two uncles (are actually shown)
    Kevan
    Coldhands
    (maybe) faceless man
    (maybe) someone for bravos
    There should also be someone, that represents the still loyal northerners

    I have no idea what Arya should do all season. There is not enough to keep her in Westeros for long, if they don’t create some bigger “The girl and the hound”-spin off. So she might reach the faceless men early.

    Ygritte might become a pov-character

    With all the tightening of the story D & D do, we might get only one REAL battle at the wall.
    They also cant keep Stannis out of the picture for to long. So the battle might not be far away.

    A hunt for the lost Stark boys might be added or an assault on the Dreadfort. Something for Bolten to do, to avoid the Winterfell storyline from starting to soon.

    The birth of Lady Stoneheart would have been a great moment for the previous season final scene. But now I think it would be better to reveal her like in the book. (and later) It is just such a great reveal. (although I would really like to see more of her)

    The season begins likely with Cerceis reunion with her lover, and how others react to him, Johns recovery and mentioning of Mace and the Viper.

    They will reach Landing in the next episode.
    We get some scenes of Stanis travelling, something with Davos and Shireen, a glance of how their relationship with Selyce looks like, …
    Davos stays likely a little longer with them, since travelling takes in the show little time and, there is not much left for him to do.
    The preparation for Theons rescue.

    Bran’s group will likely give some explanation about the past while travelling

    The misinformation from the diamond scene destroys slowly Tyrion and Shae relationship

    We will see the purple wedding likely quiet soon. (I guess episode 4)

    Brian sets of with Genry (he has to get somehow back, where he belongs) and maybe already Pod for her boring quest.

    Theon will properly mistake real rescue for another torture (it is just to perfectly set up, to not be used) and so betrays the ironborn.

    Bran’s group gets attacked twice, the second time they are saved by Coldhands.

    Tywin AND SHAES die (I don’t get why you would think they remove her murder) – especially through the whitewashing of Tyrion it is dramatic enough for a episode 9 event.
    I hope they mention the possibility that Shae was initially a spy for Tywin.

    The final episode will be once again setup:
    Jamie goes off to deal with Riverrun.
    (maybe) the first sighs of madness on Cecrei.
    We find out Tyrion is on the way to Dany.

    The final scene would be ether
    Bran meets the children or
    Jon becomes lord commander.

    Anyway I am optimistic. D & D did such great work. They kept pretty much every good part of the books and fixed the bad ones, made the story tighter, the characters more unique, …
    Even when they catch up with Martin’s snail pace, the final season will be great, maybe even better then the books. Two good authors that work well together are better then a great one.

  290. Seanachie
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    I love Davos, I’m not saying they’ll sideline him for most of the season, but I think they may separate him from Stannis. What the D&D really seem to revel in is the new combinations of characters they can throw together. Stannis is more interesting (to me) if he’s interacting with Jon and Sam and Aemon alone, rather than with Davos at his side.

  291. Bard
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Adam: Jentario,

    Also you might be right about Bran meeting the CoF already, but jeez, his story is going to be moving along quickly compared to the books, ain’t it? He could very well be out of material by the end of Season 5, and if TWoW isn’t out by then… well, let’s hope it will be :)

    Maybe GRRM could give the writers some exclusive Bran material before TWOW is published (although we would have parts of the books adapted in the show before people could read the original chapters on which they are based on…). The writers would need the material until next year.

    There are just a few chapters for Sansa either. And the Battle in the Ice OR the Battle of Slaver’s Bay at the beginning of TWOW could serve as a decent end for Season 5.

  292. Eor!
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown:
    Probably a long shot, but I think there’s a case to be made for combining Arianne (if she comes to KL with Oberyn, as many have speculated) with Taena of Myr. For one thing, their descriptions and mannerisms are strikingly similar. It reduces character/story bloat (I can hear the Darkstar fans crying out in terror), and it helps fill a major power void in KL for season 5.

    Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer are killing it, but I don’t think they’re enough to carry KL alone. Yes, I am well aware that the Martells despise the Lannisters as much as the Tyrells, but having Arianne act as a double agent of sorts could open up a lot of interesting possibilities.

    It works out well for continuity’s sake, too. Arianne can slip away during Cersei’s arrest, like Taena does, and head south to rendezvous with Griff & Son.

    People have been trying to suggest who will replace Taena literally from the first season. If they need to cut her they’ll just remove the character, Ariana has her own stuff to do.

    Also, I find it hard to understand how there are people out there who still think that the entire Dorne/Iron Islands plot can just be skipped or barely mentioned without any consequences. I’m guessing these are the same people who believe they’re pointless and that victarion/euron/arianna will all die in the opening chapters of WoW, but this is just stupid. He didn’t spend a book building up these two locations to just abandon them.

  293. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown: Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer are killing it, but I don’t think they’re enough to carry KL alone.

    Actually to be honest? I think these two COULD carry KL alone. It’s been really interesting to watch the tenor of this show change as it has. The first season has a very iron-jawed approach, and that’s in part b/c of the way it revolves around the great, stalwart Sean Bean performance.

    Season 2 is more slippery, again playing with expectations, and again related to the way in which Peter Dinklage commands the screen. And then near the end his sincerity really drives the Blackwater scenes.

    Season 3 is a bit disparate – many characters take the stage, including Jon, Danys, and probably most important Tywin.

    To me, Season 4 is going to once again revolve around Tyrion, and the relationship with his father and sister. So you’re going to get an ongoing feeling of tension from that.

    Then I think Season 5 really blows things up in a way — you have a contrast between A) the increasing threat from outside (The Wall, Iron Islands, Dany dragons, Dorne, Tyrion traveling across the Narrow Sea) and B) the way in which Kings Landing, devoid of a central, easy conflict (Stark v Lannister) and the steadying presence of Tyrion or the dictatorial presence of Tywin, just basically blows the fuck up.

    And much of that gets channeled in the Marge-Cersei fight, and then we really ratchet up the characterization of some people who are completely out of their depth, people who are not on the level of their predecessors – such as Qyburn v Varys, the new Master of Coin v Littlefinger (ok, he was borrowing it, but still), the pompous and useless Mace Tyrell, and that opens the power vacuum for many but especially (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE The High Sparrow).

    To me there’s so much compelling stuff in the MUCK that KL becomes with Cersei at the helm, and I think it’ll be bloody goddamned brilliant. Again – if D&D can think of it, they should have Brienne run into the High Sparrow early on, and start getting that character established. Because he’s AWFUL. He SUUUUUCKS. And it’s great stuff – the Cersei stuff really drove AFfC and we need that disaster to come through.

  294. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Suzaku,

    Nice post. Great thoughts.

  295. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Kissed by Glasgow,

    I don’t see Bronn becoming a lover of Cersei. Some have suggested either A) sending him on the road with Jaime (great for personalities, not so much as a companion to Jaime given he’s a sellsword), and I think he should become friends with Ellaria Sand, and go to Dorne in Season 5 where he replaces the Areo Hotah character.

  296. Adam 2nd of his name
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    There is some “character softening” ie Lannisters send their regards instead of Jaimie does, even though smart viewers could have figured out Jaimie knew nothing about the RW, but to avoid confusion. And Catelyn never having the chance to dig Jon a little more when Robb talks to her about naming him his heir. And Sansa not kneeling being more of a flighty thing than outright defiance.

    So i actually am thinking they may not have Tyrion admit to murdering Joffrey to Jaimie, as they won’t want anyone to get confused and think he actually did it. but I hope they still have Jaimie tell Tyrion about Tyrions first wife, although maybe they skip that conversation all together. Things are different with Jaimie likely present for the PW.

  297. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Great post! I don’t completely agree…but great post. (I think the sweet spot is 8 seasons, and *maybe* 9. They’ve already said 10 would be killing the goose.)

    I think it’s more like 8 seasons:

    Season 4: ASoS (80%), AFfC (15%), ADwD (5%)
    Season 5: AFfC (55%), ADwD (45%)
    Season 6 is a bit of DwD and mostly WoW
    Season 7 finishes WoW and DoS
    Season 8 is the end.

  298. Hard Truths
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    From everything I have read 8 seasons seems like the max. So I got to think AFFC and ADWD will be finished by season 5, leaving 2-3 seasons for TWOW and ADOS (with one of the battles from TWOW being the climax for season 5).

    For season 4, I think that the Kings Landing and Wall plot from ASOS will take up the entire season, but pretty much every other character will be into AFFC and ADWD material. We will probably get Joffrey’s wedding in episode 4 or 5, with episode 9 having the trial by combat and Tyrion’s escape.

  299. Door
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    Door,

    They wouldn’t arrest her because they think she killed Renly, they would arrest her because she supported Renly (and Cat)…

    It makes no sense. The Tyrells supported Renly as well, and they’re not arrested. In the book she’s arrested on Jaime’s orders only because he’s trying to get her away from a confrontational Loras. She could be arrested for supporting Cat, but only if she was openly hostile to the Lannisters, or if she tried to take Sansa away. Let’s be logical here, they have no reasons to arrest her atm, unless she gives them a reason.

    Re Bronn: At some point Bronn will leave Tyrion’s side because Cersei offers him a better deal. I can easily see Bronn becoming the show answer to the Kettleblacks.

  300. DeGree
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    I think there are clues that we will see an invented story line involving theon/ramsay, yara, and Osha/rickon.

    We know that Ramsay took interest in Theon’s knowledge that Bran and Rickon are headed north, and currently Osha and Rickon are on a path to Castle Black. We also know that the showrunners made a big deal out of Yara heading out to free her brother, similar to the end of Season 1 when the Night’s watch rode out from the wall. Some have suggested that this is a “feint” by the writers, but I think it would be viewed as more of a cop-out by nonreaders.

    Here’s a guess: Ramsay heads north to track Bran and Rickon with Theon in tow. Yara arrives at and attacks the Dreadfort, but learns that Ramsay has taken Theon north. Ramsay intercepts and captures Osha and Rickon, or at least forces them to change course and head East instead of going to Castle Black. Yara catches up to Ramsay, and a fight ensues. Yara’s intervention allows Osha and Rickon to escape (perhaps they are at a coast and escape by boat, providing reason for them to go to Skagos). However, Ramsay escapes with Theon. Before Yara can pursue Ramsay, she receives word of Balon’s death and the Kingsmoot, and is forced to return to the Iron Islands (perhaps she sees what Theon has become and decides the kingsmoot is more important than saving him, or maybe he even resists rescue (Stockholm Syndrome). News of Balon’s death and Yara’s decision ends Season 4 , paving the way for Season 5 to include the kingsmoot and all its new cast members.

    This scenario would get all the key characters to their “right” places by season’s end, and would provide several great opportunities for action and drama (Yara taking the Dreadfort (early in the season), Ramsay finding Osha and Rickon
    (mid season), Yara catching up and fighting Ramsey and his men, Osha and Rickon’s escape (episode 8 or 9), and Yara’s difficult decision to abandon Theon and return to the kingsmoot (finale)). Just a thought.

  301. Arkash
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Warning : quite a long post ahead.

    King’s Landing :
    Brienne and Jaime return. Interactions (Tywin – Jaime, Loras – Brienne, Jaime – Brienne – Sansa, Jaime – Cersei, Jaime – Tyrion)…
    Meeting between Roose and Tywin. Tywin gives FakeArya to Roose and they leave North.
    Arrival of Mace Tyrell and Oberyn Martell, Arianne Martell and Ellaria Sand for the Royal Wedding.
    Oberyn – Tywin, Oberyn – Tyrion.
    Mace – Oberyn. Olenna – Oberyn. Olenna – Mace.
    Margaery – Joffrey.
    Purple Wedding : Tyrion guesses Joffrey was behind the attempt on Bran’s life, Sansa’s escape, Tyrion’s arrest.
    Jaime sends Brienne recover Sansa and protect her.
    Tommen and Margaery’s wedding.
    Tyrion’s trial. Oberyn’s visits to Tyrion.
    Trial by combat, the Viper and the Mountain.
    Arianne, furious leaves King’s Landing, swearing the Martell will not forget and avenge Oberyn’s death. Ellaria stays behind.
    Jaime frees Tyrion.
    Tywin and Shae’s death. Tyrion’s escape, meets with Illyrio Mopatis, decides to go after Daenerys.

    Brienne :
    After leaving King’s Landing with Pod, disgraced after Tyrion’s demise, she stumbles upon Locke.
    Fight and she kills him.
    Maybe crossing paths with Gendry.
    Finally getting captured by the Brotherhood (Anguy and his men find her), she is brought before Lady Stoneheart. Trial and hanging : final scene of the season.

    Arya :
    Heading for the Vale with the Hound.
    Come across Polliver and other guys in the Inn.
    They learn the Vale has declared for Joffrey.
    Fight, Sandor injured. Arya recovers Needle.
    Arya abandon the Hound, dying and head for the coast. She gets in a ship and her arc ends with the Titan on the horizon.

    Bran and co :
    Attacked by wights.
    Coldhands shows up and save the day. He announces he is send by the Three-Eyed-Raven and they follow him.
    During the journey, Bran talks about Robert’s Rebellion, the Night King, the Long Night…
    Meera tells the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
    Season ends with the arrival at the cave, barely escaping a Walker. Meeting with the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven.

    Yara :
    Tries to assault the Dreadfort but fails and head back.
    Crosses paths with Rickon and Osha and finds out they are heading for Skagos after hearing of the Red Wedding and being hunt by Ramsay.
    One of Yara’s men (Wex) is being captured by Manderly men as Yara and the rest of her crew escapes and head back for the Iron Islands.
    Wex is brought before Wyman Manderly and tells him about Rickon and Osha.
    Yara arrives at Pyke only to learn of her father’s death and the return of Euron.
    She calls for a Kingsmoot, end of the season.

    Reek and Ramsay :
    Hunt for the Stark boys.
    Reek follows Ramsay like a dog.
    They barely catch Rickon but he escapes (that would be before Rickon meets Yara).
    Ramsay is angry at it, punishes Reek and they head south to Moat Cailin.
    Reek betrays his fellow Iron-Born. Roose and FakeArya meet with Ramsay and they head out to Winterfell for the wedding.
    Season ends with the first sight of Winterfell in ruins.

    Sansa :
    In the Eyrie, at the beginning of the season, we see Littlefinger and Lysa wed before Littlefinger has to leave for the Royal Wedding.
    After the Purple Wedding she is taken to Littlefinger’s ship by Dontos (?).
    Dontos is killed and they head for the Vale.
    During the journey onboard, Sansa dies her hair and becomes Alayne Stone, the bastard daughter of Littlefinger.
    Arrival at the Eyrie. Alayne meets Lysa and Robin.
    Snowcastle. Stolen kiss. Lysa goes nuts.
    Reveal that her and Petyr killed Jon Arryn.
    “Only Cat”. Littlefinger blames an unknown bard there and end of the season.

    The Wall:
    Jon is healed. He reveals he broke his vow and that the Wildling are soon to attack en masse.
    Return of Dolorous Edd, Grenn and Ghost (and some other survivors of the mutiny).
    Mance sends a first and quiet nocturnal group lead by Styr open the gates in secrecy but they are caught.
    Ygritte was among them and dies in the arms of Jon.
    Preparation for the full assault.
    Battle of the Wall, lead by Jon, Grenn, Pyp, Edd and others.
    Arrival of Thorne and Slynt. They condemn Jon and stuff him in an ice-cell while the battle continues.
    Slynt offers Jon a choice : death for treason or killing Mance Rayder.
    Jon accepts to kill Mance and go talk to him. Meets Tormund again and first encounter of Val and Dalla.
    Stannis arrival as Jon will be about to kill Mance.
    Big battle. Wildlings defeated. Tormund rassembles as many men as he can and fly away.
    Dalla dies in childbirth. Val, baby and Mance captured.
    Stannis dismiss Thorne and Slynt offers Jon to become Lord of Winterfell and asks the Night’s Watch to elect a new Lord Commander.
    After many discussions, Sam and Pyp manage to get Jon elected (throw some Dolorous Edd lines in there). Season ends with Jon telling Sam and Aemon they have to go to Oldtown.

    Daenerys :
    Heading for Meereen, following the road of crucified slaves.
    Jorah becomes more and more warrant of Daario and tension grow between him and Barristan.
    Arrival at Meereen. Barristan defeats their champion but Meereen wont open its gates.
    Jorah’s past betrayal is revealed by Barristan after Jorah tried to kill Daario.
    Dany orders Jorah to crawl through the sewers and to open the gates. He does it and return persuaded to have won her love. He declares himself, tries to kiss her but, in a fury, she exiles him.
    Dany enters Meereen and crucify the slave-masters.
    She decides to stay there for the time being.
    She has sex with Daario and the season ends as we learn Drogon has eaten Izzeah.

  302. DeGree
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Also, I wanted to note that I really hope they ignore Davos and Stannis for most of the season, to make it more of a surprise when they arrive at the Wall in Jon’s moment of desperation. I don’t know about other readers, but I was completely surprised by this, and only later did I remember Davos reading the letter from the Night’s Watch. I was a little upset that the show seemed to spoil this a little by making it clear that Stannis and Mel are resolved to take their fight north, but this could be mitigated by keeping them out of the reader’s mind until their big moment.

  303. Bowl of Brown
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Eor!:
    Also, I find it hard to understand how there are people out there who still think that the entire Dorne/Iron Islands plot can just be skipped or barely mentioned without any consequences. I’m guessing these are the same people who believe they’re pointless and that victarion/euron/arianna will all die in the opening chapters of WoW, but this is just stupid. He didn’t spend a book building up these two locations to just abandon them.

    I like Dorne, but what exactly did the Arianne/Myrcella plot do from a narrative perspective? It literally travels in a circle! This is what we have learned, thus far, from the combined POVs of Areo, Arianne, and Arys:

    1) The Martells still want revenge against the Lannisters over Elia’s murder; and
    2) Doran made secret marriage alliances to restore the Targaryens and Martells to power.

    When you consider the cost of adding the full Dornish cast (Doran, Areo, Arys, Darkstar, Trystane, a handful of Sand Snakes, a new Myrcella?), plus set design, costumes, and so forth, doing BookDorne is an awfully expensive way to accomplish what ShowDorne needs to accomplish. Capably casting Oberyn and Arianne, and introducing Arianne next season, tells us what we need to know about how Dorne fits into the overall equation.

    At this point, I can’t see the show adding costly subplots (Myrcella, Quentyn) that don’t advance the overall story in any material way. Just because GRRM devoted a few hundred pages to Dorne between AFFC and ADWD doesn’t mean D&D need to spend an equivalent amount of time there. They’ve repeatedly said that the show is their interpretation of ASOIAF, and we need to be comfortable with that.

  304. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Seanachie,
    I think many of us are having that same dream.

  305. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown,

    Excellent! The only thing I might quibble with is “Ramsay meets his bride”. I think the ‘fake Arya’ story line isn’t going to happen mainly because I can’t think of anyone who could get stuck playing the role of ‘fake Arya’. Wouldn’t they need to introduce someone or re-introduce someone from the first season or two to play that role?

  306. shywalker
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    I don’t know if it’s crucial we recognize who the fake-Arya actually is. The only important thing for the storyline is that Theon (and the audience) knows it is NOT Arya.

    I think they could just say they picked up an orphan in Flea Bottom and just rely on the fact that Theon is so broken that there’s no choice for him but to tow the line.

    It would also make his arc a little more redemptive. Not only is he going to rescue the girl from Ramsay, but he also is rescuing a poor, pissant with no noble birth (the very same people he used to use/lose without a care in the world).

  307. dizzy
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    They can still pull it off somehow. Besides Theon knowing it’s not Arya, I don’t see how it’s important that it has to be Jayne Poole. (Unless it comes into play later on when/if she gets to the wall). I can see them just pulling some random girl off the streets to explain that. The fake Arya story had some of the most disturbing stuff in ADWD I can’t imagine they’d miss the opportunity to shock the audience some more with that. Who knows, maybe that story crosses the line with D & D but I doubt it. They stabbed a pregnant woman in the belly after all.

  308. Bowl of Brown
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    shywalker,

    Also, fArya is the reason Jon decides to march on Winterfell, which leads to the mess he’s currently in. It wouldn’t be impossible to give him another reason, but what’s more compelling than rescuing his half-sister? (Remember he also believes Stannis and Mance have both failed.)

    Without fArya, Roose has a much more tenuous hold on the North. As far as anyone knows (or is willing to admit), she is the only “legitimate” Stark left alive who’s not currently wanted for high treason, so her existence is part of what keeps Manderly, et. al. at bay.

  309. Rafael
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of The Waters:
    I know this may not necessarily be used for season 4 but does anyone think it is possible that they could have Bronn replace Ilyn Payne as the guy who helps Jaime train to fight left handed? With Wilko Johnsons illness I wouldn’t think the show would recast the role and Jerome Flynn (a fan favourite) would be leaving the show at the end of next season if they follow the books. So how about instead of the silence of Ilyn Payne, Jaime has the one liners and sarcasm of Bronn to motivate him? It would be a shame to lose Jerome Flynn and I think there could be some golden dialogue between him and NCW especially as you have the Bronn/Tyrion connection that they could play on. It might never work but its just something that came into my mind as Im sat here on my break at work.

    That would be awesome.

  310. Lollius Palicanus
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know if this has been established already, but cutting Victarion in favour of Euron would go against continuity within the show. In season 1 Tyrion clearly states Theon’s uncleS were responsible for the burning of the Lannister fleet. Aerion could be cut without problems.

  311. Chuchulf
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    My guess is that in season 4 the deaths of the kings will go in the order Stannis cast the leeches into the fire; first episode: Balon Greyjoy dies, second episode: PW. I think we’ll hopefully get a lot of material from the Iron Islands, and in that case I am certain that Theon won’t have only one unlce in the series, as Garcia predicted. And there WILL be a Kingsmoot!

    Another thing that I am certain of, is that if they completly leave out Braavos from the whole series, I will be pissed.

  312. Dornishman
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    It’s been a while, so I have a very spotty memory of events. I think substituting Ellaria for Arriane makes most sense to me. Just off the top of my head:

    Episode 1:
    Balon Greyjoy dies. Victarian Greyjoy introduced
    Wedding preparations in KL. Littlefinger returns
    Mace Tyrell, Oberyn Martell and Arriane Martell (replacing Ellaria) introduced
    Dany arrives at the outskirts of Meereen. Greeted by Meereenese champion
    Preparation for skirmish at the Wall
    Loras confronts Brienne

    Episode 2:
    Purple Wedding, Joffery dies
    Jorah’s betrayal revealed
    Ary/hound wander the Riverlands
    Euron Greyjoy introduced, takes Seastone chair

    Episode 3:
    Post-PW chaos in KL, Tyrion imprisoned
    Sansa escapes KL with Littlefinger’s help
    Cercei and Jaime do it in front of Joff’s corpse
    Dany sends Jorah/unsullied into sewers of Meereen
    Skirmish at the wall, Ygritte dies

    Episode 4:
    Trial held in KL by Tywin, Mace and Oberyn
    Yara informed of fathers death, heads back to Pyke
    Sansa on boat en-route to Eeyrie
    Arya/Hound make for the Eeyrie
    Tyrion and Oberyn talk in dungeon
    Dany takes Meereen

    Episode 5:
    Oberyn offers to champion Tyrion. Oberyn explains Martell history
    Oberyn vs Mountain, Oberyn dies. Arrianne flees back to Dorne to inform father
    Arya/Hound turn back from the Eeyrie and settle at theCrossroads Inn. Arya regains needle.
    Thorne and Slynt arrive at the Wall

    Episode 6:
    Yara arrives back at Pyke. Confronts Euron and Victarion. Kingsmoot is called.
    Tyrion set free by Jaime, murders Tywin and Shae
    Sansa arrives at the Eeyrie, meets Lysa
    Dany sits atop the great pyramid, decides her next move
    Battle at the Wall. Stannis arrives, defeats Wildlings and captures Mance

    Episode 7:
    Tyrion ushered into a boat
    Cercei reacts to Tywins death
    Sansa becomes Alaine
    Arya arrives at Salt Pans. Hound left to die by tree.
    Castle Black elections

    Episode 8:
    Tywin’s funeral is held. Jaime stands guard
    Yara prepares for Kingsmoot
    Sansa bemoans Robin Arryn
    Arya sails for Braavos
    Jaime sends Brienne/Pod off on quest
    Jon made Commander

    Episode 9:
    Tommen is crowned King
    Obara informs Doran Martell of Oberyn’s death and Arrianes return to Dorne.
    Doran imprisons Sand snakes
    Kingmoot is held and won by Euron
    Tyrion still in transit across narrow-sea
    Dany discovers dragons are killing babies

    Epsiode 10:
    Tommen’s wedding to Margery. Tower of Hand burnt. Queen of Thorns exits
    Arriane sleeps with Arys. Informs him of her plans to crown Myrcella
    Euron reveals plans to sail east to Victarion. Fleet sets out.
    Arya see’s Trident of Braavos over the horizon.
    Tyrion sails into Pentos
    Littlefinger pushes Lysa out the moon door
    Dany chains her dragons
    Jon sends Sam/Aemon/Gilly to Old Town
    Davos revealed to be in White Harbor

  313. Chuchulf
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    DeGree:
    Also, I wanted to note that I really hope they ignore Davos and Stannis for most of the season, to make it more of a surprise when they arrive at the Wall in Jon’s moment of desperation. I don’t know about other readers, but I was completely surprised by this, and only later did I remember Davos reading the letter from the Night’s Watch. I was a little upset that the show seemed to spoil this a little by making it clear that Stannis and Mel are resolved to take their fight north, but this could be mitigated by keeping them out of the reader’s mind until their big moment.

    I was surprised too reading about Stannis arriving at the Wall, but I wouldn’t be too upset if we could see what was Davos doing during the second half of ASoS :)

  314. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    mead,

    It’s been pretty heavily telegraphed so far.

    Well, yes and no. I think it’s still not clear if Melisandre’s visions are accurate or not so even if she says, ‘you must go to the wall and save everyone’ that doesn’t mean it will happen. As book readers we know that Stannis will do that but the Unsullied have no idea if he’ll even make it to the wall. So as someone else suggested, leaving Stannis out of a few eps with his sudden appearance at the wall to save Castle Black will seem out of the blue, ala deus ex machina….

  315. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Bravisimo! :)


    “Love don’t make things nice – it ruins everything. It breaks your heart. It makes things a mess. We aren’t here to make things perfect. The snowflakes are perfect. The stars are perfect. Not us. Not us! We are here to ruin ourselves and to break our hearts and love the wrong people and *die*. The storybooks are *bullshit*. Now I want you to come upstairs with me and *get* in my bed!”

  316. LilJonUmber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    DeGree:
    Also, I wanted to note that I really hope they ignore Davos and Stannis for most of the season, to make it more of a surprise when they arrive at the Wall in Jon’s moment of desperation. I don’t know about other readers, but I was completely surprised by this, and only later did I remember Davos reading the letter from the Night’s Watch. I was a little upset that the show seemed to spoil this a little by making it clear that Stannis and Mel are resolved to take their fight north, but this could be mitigated by keeping them out of the reader’s mind until their big moment.

    Same here. And I too was a little disappointed with the way they handled the final scene with the letter this past episode.

    Stannis saving the day was one of my favorite parts of ASOS — or any of ASOIAF, for that matter. If they ignore his voyage up the Narrow Sea, focusing on Davos trying to rally lords to his cause, then his arrival at the Wall should still take most by surprise.

  317. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    To pad Daenerys’ Meereen story she could finally get that 3 treasons prediction she was supposed to get at the HOTU. She either gets a visit from Quaithe or possibly a blue-lipped warlock. This prophecy effects her actions in ASOS & ADWD, she becomes increasingly paranoid. I thinl it’s important that we get it.

    I don’t like the idea of Brienne doing her AFFC stuff in season 4. There are plenty of things she can do. She meets Sansa but can’t get her of KL so has to settle for watching from afar. QOT and Margaery try to befriend her and pump her for information about the Lannisters since she spent so much time with Jaime. Brienne feels insecure around Margaery.

    The season 3 finale made it clear that team Dragonstone is headed north. There is no need for the assist at the wall to be a surprise. I stand by my prediction that Stannis will arrive just after the attack on Castle Black. They will have the politics around the LC and Stannis trying to order them around in mid season. Since D&D hinted that the battle will be huge, they can have it be the entirety of episode 9.

    Episode 8 has the Oberyn/Mountain duel. Skipping KL in episode 9 means that episode 10 will give us the sense that Tyrion has been in imprisoned and waiting for his execution date to arrive. Tywin and Shae dying as well as Lysa flying will be great dramatic finale moments.

  318. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Sareeta,
    tysnow,

    I agree about the WW’s and emphasizing their threat. I think that Sam giving Bran and Co those dragonglass weapons provides a good opportunity to show the fact that they work on the WW but not the wights. It also should give them some opportunities to show just how many wights there are. And all that will make it very clear to the audience that not only are they legion, but facing them isn’t going to be easy pickings.

    Sareeta, on your point about the Greyjoy’s story arc….I think how important they are after book 5 is crucial to whether we get the Kingsmoot or not. I didn’t enjoy that part of the books at all, don’t know why. But they could easily leave it out as far as I’m concerned so long as it doesn’t affect the end of the whole story (except for their ships being sent to Dany, of course).

  319. shyone274
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Kissed by Glasgow,

    That’s a really interesting suggestion! I could totally see him replacing all three Kettleblacks. Tyrion doesn’t care about who Cersei sleeps with enough to stop him, and it would be a great thing to throw in Jaime’s face come season’s end. Plus it is perfectly in character for Bronn to switch sides if he gets a better offer. And Cersei would have the influence/money to get Bronn to not defend Tyrion in trial by combat.

  320. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    outdoorcats,

    Yes! Having the WW’s and Wights harrying Mance’s army from behind as he attacks Castle Black would be excellent drama and emphasize again, just how much of a threat they are.

  321. NukeDorne
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    I really want the PW episode to be all in King’s Landing. I think the various confrontations would be incredibly, as well as Sansa’s escape.

  322. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,
    Shan,

    Brienne training Jaime to fight left handed would be another wedge between him and Cersei. Cersei (book and show version) have spent a lot of time showing resentment for the disparity in how men and women get treated and how she feels if she was born a man, that she would be treated better or at least free to make her own decisions….we’ve discussed it before, how she doesn’t love Jaime so much as she needs him and wants to be him.

    So her seeing Brienne, a woman who managed to do what she couldn’t, which is to stay a woman yet engage in exclusively male behaviors AND interact with Jaime on a level that Cersei can’t…..It’s too good an opportunity to pass up. Countdown to seeing Cersei seething with jealousy……3….2…. /rubbing hands together ala Mr. Burns

  323. The Loon
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    the lack of a curtain call for Michelle Fairley is deafening…you guys should probably get on that…not doing one is a major spoiler

  324. KG
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Butterbumps,

    What show were you watching? It was Joffrey.

  325. KG
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    The Loon,

    No kidding haha

  326. Boojam
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    The Loon:
    the lack of a curtain call for Michelle Fairley is deafening…you guys should probably get on that…not doing one is a major spoiler

    The Loon:
    the lack of a curtain call for Michelle Fairley is deafening…you guys should probably get on that…not doing one is a major spoiler

    She may be due for cameo appearances for seasons to come, but yeah I was looking for that too.

  327. The Loon
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Boojam,

    you don’t sound like a book reader…but even if she is shown in Bran’s visions nobody outside of the show runners would know that, the only reason not to include a curtain call for her is if you’ve read the books…so not doing one is giving a pretty big plot point away

  328. Delta1212
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    I really hope that they dedicate episode 9 entirely to the battle at the Wall, and I hope this for one reason and one reason only:

    Season 1 episode 9: Main good guy dies
    Season 2 episode 9: Climactic battle
    Season 3 episode 9: Main good guy faction dies
    Season 4 episode 9: Even bigger climactic battle
    Season 5 episode 9: Unsullied terrified

  329. iam76
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Can we stop assuming Euron and Victarion will be joined. It makes no sense for the show… Instead they introduce these characters next season.. Just like this year we get magnar….

  330. Daniellica
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    El Beto:
    sunspear,

    The show CAN NOT pass the books. We readers don’t deserve it.

    I think it might actually be kind of awesome if the final season of the show renders ALL viewers Unsullied–then we’ll have shared the experience with everyone. Not to mention that the show is increasingly becoming its own particular brand of monster, with enough difference from the books to make each a unique experience.

    All that readers actually “deserve” is for GRRM to finish the series, which he fully intends to do. The show catching up to the books is utterly irrelevant when discussing fan appreciation. Book readers fell in love with the books, and books we will receive. If any book reader doesn’t wish to be “spoiled” by the show, all book readers are free to refrain from watching the show as it leaps past the books, but good luck with that! :D

  331. kp
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Since Jaime is around pre PW, why not just have Joffrey be the one to arrest Brienne? That’ll establish some antagonism in their relationship and give a reason why Jaime & Brienne don’t just immediately rescue Sansa.

  332. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I’ll chime in to this fun thread as well. I have enjoyed the contributions thus far. S4 is destined for greatness and the series has so much fan/writing passion surrounding it. Hear us roar!

    Many of the S4 highlights (key deaths, reveals, etc) have been covered already and are expected by most but I am looking to track some key deviations from the books (some of which have been implied by others as well). Of course, I’m always hoping for more direwolf sightings throughout S4.

    1) Get the LS reveal/resurrection with Nymeria/Beric/Thoros over with already! There’s only so much torture a reader can take!

    2) Brienne: She and Loras have a violent confrontation in KL; she injures (or even kills) Loras and gets put into protective custody; Jaime defends her, causing increased tension between Tyrells and Lannisters; She hears about Cat’s “death”, escapes (maybe with Jaime’s help) and goes on her own quest to find revenge and maybe Arya, learning more about the RW on the way. After several vigilante killings, she stumbles across LS and her BwB…and she continues her pledge to Cat and continues the crusade….killing Locke, Freys and many others in the process. Maybe even meeting up and aligning with Nymeria.

    3) Hound and Arya: They tear it up in the riverlands…finding Needle, killing Freys and
    Lannister supporters, and maybe even meeting the Mountain. A brother vs brother fight. Hound is severely wounded and Arya has a choice to make (kill him or help him)…before leaving him to travel east.

    4) Mance: What is this “biggest fire the North has ever seen?” Does he have access to some
    untold magic, more giants…children of the forest? Does he intend to try to melt a part of the wall? More on his strategy is needed….other than wildlings running to the wall and shooting arrows at targets 700ft above them. What does he know of the WW & wight threat? Or the Children of the forest?

    5) Stannis and Melisandre: Give Davos a mission in the North. Follow their daunting sea voyage to EastWatch. Once near the wall, Melisandre’s fire sight starts to go wild….so much magic! As they travel along the wall westward, they meet up with wights and WWs and Stannis get a real taste of what Westeros is up against. Also, Melisandre can sense/see Bran is nearby and is also wary of Coldhands’ ravens. Maybe Bran and company watch the Stannis army pass by from the forest.

    6) Bran: Bran and Jogen’s power attract evil/magical creatures as they travel (wights, WWs, children of the forest, giants). Bran uses Summer and Hodor (and giants?) to scout and warn and fight the evil. Bran and Melisandre know of each other’s presence. Bran senses even more evil to the far North as they seek BR. After a terrible wight attack (with injuries), Coldhands appears to guide and protect them further.

    7) Bank of Braavos: Their role in Westerosi leadership is more than simply funding the war. Perhaps they are linked with Varys (and the Wizard in a Box) or LF and have a few more abilities than simply writing checks? Maybe a few more shady Braavosi characters in the mix?

    8) Tyrion: He descends into family disillusionment and hatred, especially after Tywin’s drowning reveal in ep 10 and when he hears of the truth about Tysha. Jaime confides more family truths to him. He uses others to search for Tysha in Westeros. Culminates in PW and maybe his knowledge of the LF/Tyrell plot….and he does nothing to prevent it….Maybe he even stumbles across an Olenna/RV conversation about “Aegon” still being alive. He becomes the Shae slayer and kinslayer and escapes directly to Volantis, not Pentos, where he meets with Covington/Griff (and the beautiful and mysterious Septa Lemore (!)) and the Golden Company.

    9) Nymeria: Develop her “mother of wolves” story and how she and her pack are causing chaos in the riverlands…maybe associated with LS and BwB. Could tie into Arya’s dreams (even if Arya doesn’t realize she is semi-warging).

    10) Yara: She and Gendry meet up along the coast of the Narrow Sea? Yara learns of magic and Stannis actions. She is in stealth mode.

    11) Rickon and Osha: Rickon develops into a skillful fighter and uses Shaggydog to his advantage in escape from enemies (Ramsay?) and revenge. He does not leave Westeros for Skaagos and he and Osha might have a destiny with Davos soon.

    12) Summer and Ghost connecting, with Bran in the mix. Bran learning to warg over long-
    distances to discover terrifying truths and activities, past and present.

    13) Shae: She is connected to Talisa’s family in Volantis and the Bank of Braavos…or she is a spy for LF…or she is a wacko jealous whore who wants to be in the upper echelon and sleeps her way to the top before getting whacked. She is a major factor in Tyrion’s snap an pays the brutal price.

    14) Balon: More development here and a family betrayal, learn about the mystical drowning ritual and Euron’s adventures/mysteries…maybe an appearance of a Nameless Man…Balon will discover/reveal a dark secret before his death. How are the Greyjoys really relevant?

    15) Dorne activity: Via RV, Doran and Arianne, give us a compelling taste of the Targaryen
    connection and secrets being kept. Myrcella learning of her fate and family history.

    16) Winter: Need signs in Westeros that Winter is indeed coming….snow starting to fall. Also the appearance of dragons in the world should be causing some of the magical elements to shift (like in Oldtown in ADwD). The maesters should be buzzing.

    17) Dany: the chaos of her quickly-growing dragons becomes apparent (what is the dragon year to human year ration…12-1?)…growing spite from the population and enemies from other cities…who to trust…betrayal…her “winning” is over and she faces real world fuckery.

    …to identify a few…..

    So many storylines and opportunities for greatness in S4. Hopefully, D&D figures out a way to present/align the many disparate threads without compromising the story arc. Looking forward to a compelling S4.

  333. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Delta1212:
    I really hope that they dedicate episode 9 entirely to the battle at the Wall, and I hope this for one reason and one reason only:

    Season 1 episode 9: Main good guy dies
    Season 2 episode 9: Climactic battle
    Season 3 episode 9: Main good guy faction dies
    Season 4 episode 9: Even bigger climactic battle
    Season 5 episode 9: Unsullied terrified

    The Battle at the Wall happens a few chapters after Jon’s return. No way they’ll spin out his recovery and delirium for 8 episodes. His entire story would just die, and Stannis would be doing nothing again for most of a season.Half of the tension of the Wall battle comes from the fact that Jon’s exhausted and injured and still has some of the Watch doubting him. I imagine it’ll be the GRRM episode, numero 2. Get the season started with a bang and shake up the formula. A quicker beginning is a natural result of season 3 ending at an abrupt point of book 3.

  334. Joey
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    I think the major plot lines will be the Wall, KL, and Sansa. Dany and Bran dont have much left in the third book and i hope they dont go to far into the fourth book.
    the Battles at the wall might turn into on big battle so the they done use up budget on three battles. I hope episode nine is the battle al la Blackwater.
    I thnk Arianne will show up in kings landing to introduce her early.
    Since we wont get much Bran i think they will give Osha and Rickon a made up story line that hopefully GRRM gives them some insight on.
    Asha/Yarra will raid the north and be given an extra story line. I hope Kingsmoot isnt till season 5.
    I heard that they cut a littlefinger lysa scene and im thinking maybe that scene was lysa getting pushed out the moon door. I think maybe we might see this scene next season before Sansa gets there. This way they can use the actress they paid for last season without paying her to be in this season.
    I can not figure out what they will do with Blackfish and Edmure. But I cant see them being cut out this season so they have to be added somewhere just cant figure out where. Maybe Blackfish finds Stoneheart with BWB????
    How will they introduce Val. The way GRRM writes her i think shes important.
    I hope we see Trio of Brienne/Pod/Gendry
    Scenes I cant wait for. PW, RV vs MNT, Battle at Wall, Stoneheart, Coldhands, Tyrions excape, Arya needle reunion, Barristan vs the Champion, Reek it rhymes with weak.
    Knew characters i want. Red Viper, Arianne, Mace, Val, Coldhands, Stoneheart, Theres more but i doubt we get that many. Id like to see some sandsnakes and Kettleblacks and brown ben.

  335. vampiredoctor
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Battle at the Wall should be no later than episode 6.

  336. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    I would imagine Joffrey’s death will take place fairly early in the season, maybe even the 2nd or 3rd episode. And the Battle of Castle Black will end it. It’s the perfect scene for a finale — i.e. just when it looks like Jon Snow & the Watch will break in the face of the Wildling onslaught, a mysterious lady in red suddenly appears in the white snow. Orell’s eagle, which is circling the Watch like a vulture in the sky above, bursts into flames, just as Stannis’ professional legion of well-trained killers barrels into Mance’s haphazard host. Or, at least, that’s how I imagine it going down — panning out from a massive battle scene (similar to the end of the Mhysa episode — except it will be carnage instead of fanfare).

    Season 5 will then pick up at the beginning of ADwD, and show the aftermath (because, if you recall, AFfC & ADwD run concurrently, with ADwD focusing on the Wall, and AFfC focusing on KL).

    Or, at least, that’s how I’d do it. I’m guessing we’ll either see Stoneheart in E1 through the eyes of Arya/Nymeria, or her re-introduction into the story will be kept “secret”. I imagine D&D will go for the former, rather than the latter, because quite a bit of time had passed between Catelyn’s death & resurrection (which is why she looks so messed up, as opposed to Beric).

    I’d suspect we’ll meet Coldhands in E1 as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s waiting there for Bran when he gets out of the tunnel — which would be pretty creepy — or, they’ll stage something similar to the scene with Sam & Gilly in the books — in which Coldhands shows up on his elk to save them from wights.

    But I wonder if they’ll move up Young Griff’s introduction to the end of s4. If Joffrey dies in the beginning, and Oberyn/Tywin die in the middle, then Tyrion should arrive in Essos around that time. I suppose they’ll probably hold off on that until s5, but it’s possible they’ll try to ease him into the story, rather than introduce him so suddenly as GRRM does in ADwD. Because, from a purely practical standpoint, that may not play out so well on screen. At the very least, they may need to show Varys mention him, or something like that.

  337. NukeDorne
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Delta1212,

    Hmm, speaking of Season 5, what event are they going to use? Battle of Mereen? The Ides of Snow?

  338. Seonaidh Ceanneidigh
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Varamyr Fourskins: Or, at least, that’s how I’d do it. I’m guessing we’ll either see Stoneheart in E1 through the eyes of Arya/Nymeria, or her re-introduction into the story will be kept “secret”. I imagine D&D will go for the former, rather than the latter, because quite a bit of time had passed between Catelyn’s death & resurrection (which is why she looks so messed up, as opposed to Beric).

    I think it’d be great not to show her, but have Arya and the Hound run into Freys hanging from a series of trees like Xmas decorations. It could ominous. Later, we get the Merret or Lothar/Black Walder hanging scene to make sense of it.

  339. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Seonaidh Ceanneidigh,

    I think that’s a distinct possibility, given how many people were banking on seeing her in the finale (not to mention the fact that the cast and crew are acting as if Michelle Fairley is off the show for good — which I suppose they have to — but it does set up the option for a “surprise” reentrance, if that’s how they choose to play it).

  340. Rafael
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Unbowd UnbentUnHodor:
    Personally id rather it finish on its 7th season on a high note. People arent going to wait around forever while dany fucks around in Essos. My brothers already asking when she gets to westeros :/ everyone should stop saying 9 or 10 seasons..its ridiculous. Combining aFfC and DwD into one/one and ahalf seasons is for the best and I personally dont care if the show finishes first because the show is what got me into the books.

    I agree. The situation seems very problematic and I think that the show will end before we see the ending but I enjoy it as long as it lasts :)

  341. Adam Whitehead
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    So both of the essays believe season 5 is going to include 2 books or did i get something wrong.

    It seems to be the default assumption that AFFC/ADWD will be adapted as either 1 or 1.5 seasons, stretched across Season 5 and maybe a bit of 6 (if you believe S4 will just be ASoS Part 2), or maybe starting at the end of Season 4 and continuing to the end of Season 5 (if you believe S4 can include some AFFC/ADWD material as well).

    You can’t extend them any more than that as you start squeezing time for the last two books, and since the general consensus/frantic hoping (delete as appropriate) is that TWoW/ADoS will be much more packed with important climaxes than AFFC/ADWD, it doesn’t make sense to spend too much time on the latter at the expense of the former.

    And since GRRM will most likely need another 2 years to finish Winds of Winter D&D will most likely do their best to stretch storylines, add some extra material that wasn´t seen in the book, add another lovestory that annoyes everyone (since Robb and Talisa are gone) until mr Martin is done with his books.

    Nope, this hope is pretty much completely gone. TWoW may get out ahead of the TV show, but ADoS coming out first is almost impossible.

    His interview of GRRM at Olympus a year or two back was sooooo bad. Three or four times during the course of it GRRM tried to digress from the unimaginative straitjacket that was being imposed upon him, so as to give the audience something more interesting to ponder and each time he was dragged back into the mire as the interviewer ploughed on obliviously.

    That’d be the interview GRRM – and many others – congratulated me on afterwards for not constantly interrupting him with BS questions (which a lot of other interviews do) and just letting him get on talking about his work?

    Read an article somewhere in which the writer speculated the Battle for Castle Black would take place in ep 39 lol…

    There’s two battles at Castle Black: the initial raid (in which Ygritte dies) and the later massive assault (in which Stannis shows up). I think all incidents of discussing the battle at Castle Black are talking about the latter. The initial raid will either happen very early on in S4 or simply fall by the wayside, with Ygritte dying in the main battle at the Wall. Given budgetary considerations (we’re likely to see some scaling back of events so they can spend more on the battle, as with S2 and the Blackwater) I think it’s more likely we won’t have the initial raid, just the main assault.

    Why does everybody think D&D ned to save screentime now? I agree it was necesary the first two seasons but since the 3rd book was divided in to seasons and since george rr martin is going to need about a trillion decades to finish his books there are no reasons to cut important events like the kingsmoot. I guess D&D are about to change everything a lot like they always do but skip a major plottwist that would do great on television would be more than unlikely. These two bloggers may be experts on GRRM but it seems to me that they do not know much about producing TV-shows…

    On the contrary, I know quite a lot :) And that feeds into this: S4 has the Battle of the Wall, which the producers have said they think will be more expensive and bigger than the Blackwater. That means they will be looking to save money elsewhere. Joffrey’s wedding is another big setpiece and a critical moment, so they won’t cut that, but the Kingsmoot is ripe for trimming: it introduces a bunch of new characters (expensive) who don’t do anything for the rest of the season (expendable), it features tons of extras (expensive) and needs to be filmed either on a new location (expensive) or a new set (expensive). Or you can skip the whole thing, have Yara hear about it second-hand and hold back on casting Victarion and/or Euron until Season 5 (cheap, but effective).

    The first rule of TV production is ‘pick your battles’. What do you NEED, what can you skip and what is important? The Kingsmoot is a good scene in the books, but its contribution to the overall plot is “Euron becomes King, Yara has to go off to rescue Theon.” Given they’ve already got Yara off to rescue Theon, it’s questionable if you need a big and expensive scene like that to establish Euron as king rather than a couple of lines of dialogue.

    I know this may not necessarily be used for season 4 but does anyone think it is possible that they could have Bronn replace Ilyn Payne as the guy who helps Jaime train to fight left handed?

    This is one of the best ideas I’ve ever heard about the adaptation.

    I really hope they bring back Dontos. I thought they would for the season 3 finale, but I hope they bring him back. Establishing him on season 2 to not bring him back would be foolish. I have faith.

    I think D&D might have originally thought of following the book by bringing in Dontos and then changed their minds (hence why he hasn’t shown up in S3 at all). They could still use him, of course, but I’m wondering if they are thinking of doing something different. I could see them even looking at Brienne rescuing Sansa after the PW and taking her to the Eyrie (on the grounds there’s nowhere else to take her) on her own volition, maybe with Pod’s help. It means changing the Stoneheart storyline a bit (Brienne going from totally failing to find both kids to being 50% successful) but they might be able to get around it.

    I think there are clues that we will see an invented story line involving theon/ramsay, yara, and Osha/rickon.

    That’s an interesting idea. The only problem I see is that in the show Stannis named the dead kings in the order Robb-Balon-Joffrey, which to me suggests that Balon will die before Joffrey. It’s still doable though; maybe the news takes a while to get to Yara? Though by that time the Kingsmoot would be done, and it might be redundant for Yara to hear about the Kingsmoot, abandon Theon to attend it, realise she needs Theon, and go all the way back again to grab him. It feels like there should be a more straightforward approach to this story.

    One thing I’d note is that Osha and Rickon are going to Last Hearth, not Castle Black. I’m hoping this means we might get Clive Mantle back as the Greatjon (since he wasn’t at the Red Wedding, and hopefully HBO’s sour grapes over his double-booking will have eased by then).

  342. Dany's 4th dragon
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    someone posted( cant remember who it was and there are to many comments to look through to try and find it ) that they thought that the writers would maybe have Tywin hang Shea instead of have Tyrion kill her on his way to killing Tywin, which i dearly hope that they dont change I really want to see papa Lannister get a crossbow to the gut while hes on the shitter.
    Before i lose my train if thought there was a scene during season 3, i think it was after |Tyion told Sansa that they were to be married that he gave Shea a heave gold chain as a peace offering. Anyways my point is that they would not have bothered to show that if the chain was not relevant later.
    i watch the show with my wife who is a non book reader and a big fan of Tyrion/Shea
    as a couple cant wait to see her face when he offs her. Cant wait till season 4!!!

  343. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    There is no way they do the battle for the wall before 9. If they do it like the books you have to have the first strike from the south. Then the major battle later with jon leading. Then him put in jail taken out to meet with mance then the third battle with stannis. If this happens they will have to skip over the first battle and third battle all la tyrion in the vanguard and battle on the fist because of budget. They will and should put all three battles in one and do them later so its epic like it should be just like blacwater

  344. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Dany’s 4th dragon,

    I think since the show Shae is so much different from the book character (in that she truly loves Tyrion) I don’t think they can get away with having Tywin sleep with her and then have Tyrion kill her. UNLESS D&D can invent a reason for Shae to be so disgusted and angry with Tyrion that she would stoop to such a level. But I just don’t see it. So the most obvious solution would be to have Tywin discover Shae, kill her and that motivates Tyrion to kill is father. And I too can’t wait to see Papa Tywin buy it in the can.

  345. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,
    I’m curious as to what you think D&D will do with the bit about Wyman Manderly serving “pie” to Bolton and some Freys? Will they leave it out? I’m hoping they keep it in and use Walder Frey instead of some other low-level characters. Plus it would tie in nicely with the Rat King story we heard Bran tell in the S3 finale and it will provide viewers with an outlet for all that pent up frustration and need for revenge after the RW.

  346. Harry The Heir
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    For me, episode 9 has to be the key I would have all of the build up to episode nine being the Purple Wedding and the accusations against Tyrion. Episode 9 revolving around The Oberyn / Gregor battle followed by Tyrion killing Tywin. I would also have the election of Jon Snow in this episode :3 Sorry about this being poorly written, I’m ill tired and I won’t make it through the long night :(

  347. Shan
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Harry The Heir,

    I’d like Ep 8 to be the “My Name is Inigo Montoya” duel. That way, we can build up a lot of fear that the huge Ep 9 event will be TYRION GETTING EXECUTED OMGOMG!!1!1!

    The actual huge Ep 9 event, then (someone *else* getting executed, you know who I mean) will then be shockingly great instead of terrible.

  348. Joey
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    I really think people have this timeline completely wrong. the 4th season will be the rest of book 3 maybe a little of dany’s story of book 4. For the most part the king landing and wall plots will carry the season. Now for the part the people have wrong. There is no way they can do books four and five in 1 or 1.5 seasons. No way. I know the fans think that the two books are boring and plots dont go anywhere, but they are mostly wrong. Even if there not much plot advancement there is so much that happend in these to Long books that it will take at least 2.5 probably 3 seasons to finish the two books. Seriously a lot of storyline. The thing that pisses most people off is the lack of battle. GRRM has already said his greatest fear is the show catching up and that hes working fast and hard. He wrote ASOS in like 2 years. and that is a book that advances plot at a fast rate after having a book like ACOK that didnt advance a whole lot of Plot. So i would think after AFFC and ADOD that TWOW will be done and released next year or early 2015. expectially with the story starting to pick up at the end of ADOD. So if D and D want they can put in one of the battles either Ice or Fire. So this would mean that we Get
    Season 4-book 3: 2014
    Season 5 book 4/5: 2015
    Season 6 book 4/5 2016
    seson 7 book 4/5 and begining of 6 2017
    Season 8 book 6 2018
    This gives him tell 2019 to finish ADOS. He already know the end and i think that the last season and book will come out simultaniouly.
    Then maybe we can look forward to some Dunk and Egg spinoff mini series.
    (also i have my doubts he actually gets the story done in two more books like he wants)

  349. sunspear
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    You are wildly overestimating the number of people who want AFFC & ADWD massively shortened. And given how long they are together, they would be able to get 2 compelling seasons out of them easily.

    NukeDorne:
    Delta1212,

    Hmm, speaking of Season 5, what event are they going to use? Battle of Mereen? The Ides of Snow?

    My guess:

    Cersei arrested by the High Sparrow
    Brienne vs. Rorge
    Jaime threatens Edmure
    Tyrion captured by slavers.
    Sam gets laid.

  350. Stannis Baratheon
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    HoundsLady,

    While this sounds very logical and I am inclined to agree with your theory, there is one thing that stands out against it – this season’s finale. Shae was definitely pissed off at Varys and (according to her) – Tyrion for trying to convince her to leave King’s Landing. They might still play it out like in the books but you could be right as well. Excellent point in any case.

  351. Shmurb
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Joey,

    Thing is though, they’ve said they don’t really want the series to run that long. Lots of different sources including the creators have guestimated either 7 or 8 Seasons for the whole thing so it doesn’t wear out it’s welcome, among many other reasons. So, it’s not just a fans wanting the books trimmed thing (I mean, I love both, but there’s definitely tons of stuff that wouldn’t make for good TV), but a fact of the producers pretty much saying they will do some trimming.

  352. Darquemode
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    This.
    So many people either miss, dismiss, or do not appreciate everything in AFFC and ADWD, but there is a lot going on. Arcs can be tweaked of course, but some mirror one another and need to be kept intact.

    Foremost being Dany and Jon learning to rule at the same time.. meaning Dany will not advance nearly as far into her ADWD arc as many want or suspect. She will not be inside Meereen ruling until Jon is Lord Commander. D&D have paralleled Dany and Jon most of the series and I do not expect them to stop now. Especially after the mirroring of Jon being lifted up by the NW and Dany being lifted up by her new followers.

    Another arc I cannot comprehend the dislike for is Brienne’s quest and travels. It mirrors many of Duncan the Tall’s adventures and I found that aspect delightful! Being that Dunk & Egg are not a part of the series (please mini-series!) I can however see them changing her adventures somewhat. Though not nearly as much as some people may desire.

    Journeys in ASOIAF are often both literal and figurative… about self-discovery. Traveling from Point A to Point B geographically as well as the needed evolution of the character traveling. Tyrion’s traveling is another example of this. The actual journey can play out differently without massive amounts of new locations and sets etc, but the time spent traveling is important. It needs to be expressed in some manner.

  353. WildSeed
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe:
    Speculation: to what extent they will be throwing in references to prophecy (Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised and its supposed importance to the story line); allusions to or suggestions of the Great Other, etc.

    Hoping for: the Red Viper or other characters talking about Lyanna, Rhaegar, Elia, more Howland Reed (also via Bran’s dreams); a cameo later by Sean Bean, praying under a Weirwood; Val (at least).

    I wish you hadn’t mentioned this, now my expectations are beginning to rise again.
    Alas, I believed my anticipation for the series was under control. Your wonderful
    ideas, along with the brilliant insights from other commenters, have me
    obsessing again. I’m off to make up mine own ” wish list ” for the future seasons (:

  354. WildSeed
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Yep.

  355. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    This satirical article about Glen Beck contains the real truth about the future of GoT (no it doesn’t)!

  356. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    For some reason I can’t get if too link
    Here it is in text form
    http://www.salon.com/2013/06/14/lets_try_and_guess_what_glenn_becks_big_news_is/

  357. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    Other periphery, some episode management things I hope will be considered in S4/S5:

    1) Bigger budget: Due to the fan #s increasing, maybe a wee bit more for SFX and directing opportunities? Maybe a billionaire fan could step in and donate an episode or two…come on Mr. Buffett, get hip!

    2) Direction: Bring back Alan Taylor! Also, more Alex Graves and Neil Marshall please. D&D, please don’t direct…just focus on show running. Would (Braveheart) Mel Gibson do one? How about Ang Lee or Kathryn Bigelow? Too expensive? Probably. Would Tarantino be a ridiculous guest director?

    3) Bryan Cogman gets to screenwrite/adapt more than one episode!

    4) A better, meaner, bigger Mountain!

    5) Longer first and last episodes (80-90 mins)

    6) More eel pie!

    7) Except for the Yunkai post-fight scene in ep 9, Jorah, Daario, Grey Worm and Barristan are the most well-groomed people in the world. They’re in the middle of a desert for weeks on end. They should have the sweat and filth of desert travel more apparent. Even Dany and Missandei are too gussied up (but no one will ever complain about that). Show Dany in the background bonding in the sand with her dragons (training them for battle/ target practice, etc). Same with Bran, Rickon and company…have they ever washed up since S1? The harshness of the environment really isn’t done appropriately (although they did Jaime/Brienne and Arya/Hound well).

  358. Stacia
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Here are my ideas:

    The breakdown of what book is in which is season is less relevant. The process of each characters’ plotline is what’s relevant and some may move ahead into the other books.

    - Osha and Rickon will appear. In GRRM’s commentary on the DVD in Season 1, he mentions that Natalia Tena’s performance changed how he thought of Osha and implied he was going to write more with her. Like with Theon being tortured, what happens with Osha and Rickon off-page could be touched on. Since Ramsay knows the boys are alive, perhaps he goes after Rickon since Bran’s unlikely to be found. Ramsay might hide that the boys are alive from Roose, so when Ramsay marries FakeArya, he has to go after Bran and Rickon to protect his position.

    - FakeArya – this is too easy of a storyline for them to do and put earlier as long as Sansa is out of the picture. FakeArya was set-up well beforehand, so it’s not something completely out of place. It could also changed to be tied into the RW, with Jeyne never traveling to King’s Landing, but being captured after the Starks’ supporters are rounded up and executed by the Boltons. But I would rather Littlefinger be behind it.

    - Arya & The Hound – While it seems like many expects Arya to head to Braavos by mid-season, one of the other considerations is new sets and locations. Filming Ayra and the Hound riding around Northern Ireland is far cheaper than creating completely new sets for what truly is a secondary plotline. It also keeps Rory around. I expect Arya heading to Braavos is in the season finale.

    - Greyjoys & Martells – their stories may get minimized and the introductions can’t all be in the first two episodes. Part of the problem in Season 3 was it felt like too much of set-up and chess pieces being moved in the early episodes.

    For the structure, it might work better if the first 4 episodes flow right out of the Season 3 finale and then starting with episode 5, there’s a few new elements/characters added in so viewers aren’t overwhelmed with having to understand what’s going on right away. There also needs to be more small arcs in consecutive episodes, rather than a few minutes in each episode throughout the whole season.

  359. Jose 2nd son of bravos
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Jose 2nd son of bravos,

    I wanted to add that shows like Spartacus even tho it was from a different era the sword play looked authentic.. GOT needs more of this.. It doesn’t need to be gory and pointless.. But more skill and realism.. And why the hell haven’t we seen sir barestine go off..??!! We’ve only heard stories.. But I love the series.. I know its a tough balance between drama..intrigue.. And action.. But please more sword play..GOOD SKILLED SWORD PLAY.. not jus hacking away.. But more like Serio Ferrel..!!! PLEASE..!!! LOL

  360. Dornishman
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    S4- 2/3rds ASoS + 1/3rd AFfC/ADwD
    S5- AFfC + ADwD
    S6- 1/4th ADwD + TWoW
    S7-1/2 TWoW + 1/2 ADoS
    S8- ADoS

    No more than 8 seasons please. That would be excessive and I’m sure the majority of people would of moved on from this story/show.

  361. Who'sinabunker?
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    3) Bryan Cogman gets to screenwrite/adapt more than one episode!

    Dude, Cogman is already confirmed as having two episodes next season. Wish granted.

  362. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead: Or you can skip the whole thing, have Yara hear about it second-hand and hold back on casting Victarion and/or Euron until Season 5 (cheap, but effective).

    The first rule of TV production is ‘pick your battles’. What do you NEED, what can you skip and what is important? The Kingsmoot is a good scene in the books, but its contribution to the overall plot is “Euron becomes King, Yara has to go off to rescue Theon.” Given they’ve already got Yara off to rescue Theon, it’s questionable if you need a big and expensive scene like that to establish Euron as king rather than a couple of lines of dialogue.

    You raise a good point. The other way, of course, is to ignore the order, and have Balon die late in the season, and have the Kingsmoot in early Season 5. Either way, you’re correct that it can be cut in favor of one or two scenes of Euron ordering Victarion to go after Daenerys. You can even argue for eliminating the Damphair, honestly. The way it looks right now, I think we might not see the Kingsmoot till season 5, which should work.

    I think D&D might have originally thought of following the book by bringing in Dontos and then changed their minds (hence why he hasn’t shown up in S3 at all). They could still use him, of course, but I’m wondering if they are thinking of doing something different. I could see them even looking at Brienne rescuing Sansa after the PW and taking her to the Eyrie (on the grounds there’s nowhere else to take her) on her own volition, maybe with Pod’s help. It means changing the Stoneheart storyline a bit (Brienne going from totally failing to find both kids to being 50% successful) but they might be able to get around it.

    This one sounds a bit too far-fetched given the futility of Brienne’s search and the characters she runs into.

  363. BrostavoFring
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    “Instead, “she’ll run into Jaqen in Westeros and basically become his padawan learner. This cuts the need of a new exotic foreign location, and they could have her interacting with familiar characters who don’t know she’s Arya.”

    What the fuck is this? Yeah, no. I’m sure I’m not the only looking forward to seeing Braavos. If they’re running low on cash I hear The Venetian in Vegas is free.

  364. Sylar
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    shouldnt be hard to do david benioff wrote the screenplay for that movie

  365. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode: Another arc I cannot comprehend the dislike for is Brienne’s quest and travels. It mirrors many of Duncan the Tall’s adventures and I found that aspect delightful! Being that Dunk & Egg are not a part of the series (please mini-series!) I can however see them changing her adventures somewhat. Though not nearly as much as some people may desire.

    I haven’t read the Duncan stuff, so I’m at a loss on that. I liked *some* of Brienne’s stuff. The High Sparrow stuff is really important and integral to the story down the line. Her relationship with Pod. Killing Rorge and Biter (and the show may have her kill Locke, too, I mean, why the hell not?), and of course most importantly her voyage to the Quiet Isle. That’s all great stuff.

    Some of the boring conversations, and the detour to Cracklaw Point with Nimble Dick Crabbe I found pointless. Nimble Dick is introduced and then dies without anyone having really discovered anything substantial or significant, so therefore it’s a dead end that’s easily cropped out. Whereas the Quiet Isle is really important and one of those great meditative moments that (sort of) ties some loose ends. The High Sparrow is one of foreshadowing.

  366. Eleanor
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    NukeDorne:
    Delta1212,

    Hmm, speaking of Season 5, what event are they going to use? Battle of Mereen? The Ides of Snow?

    Love Ides of Snow!

  367. KG
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Jose 2nd son of bravos:
    Jose 2nd son of bravos,

    I wanted to add that shows like Spartacus even tho it was from a different era the sword play looked authentic.. GOT needs more of this.. It doesn’t need to be gory and pointless.. But more skill and realism.. And why the hell haven’t we seen sir barestine go off..??!!We’ve only heard stories.. But I love the series.. I know its a tough balance between drama..intrigue.. And action.. But please more sword play..GOOD SKILLED SWORD PLAY.. not jus hacking away.. But more like Serio Ferrel..!!!PLEASE..!!! LOL

    Beee… cause he’s not really Barristan the Bold, he’s an older actor who has assuredly not been fighting with a sword since he was 4 years old?

  368. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    While we’re at this, here’s a quick rundown of every douchebag, cutthroat, freakazoid and erstwhile jerkoff (and a few decent folk, too) who qualifies as a tertiary character, and what their status is and where I think we could see them, too:

    Alliser Thorne — Sent on a recruitment mission in late Season 1 to get him away from Jon. He’ll be back. We hadn’t seen Castle Black for most of the last 2 seasons, so it makes sense.

    Janos Slynt — Sent to the Wall in Season 2/Ep 2. Probably arrived late in Season 2 unless he had a pair of Littlefinger’s jet skis. We’ll see him, too.

    Rast and the scary mofo played by Burn Gorman — Out somewhere north of the Wall, perhaps? If we get Coldhands, these 2 could get taken out by him.

    Edd, Grenn, et al — Gotta figure these guys get back to The Wall.

    Salladhor Saan — Somewhere out pirating. I love Lucian Msamati, and it’s a shame he’s not used more. He’s just not integral enough. But I look forward (hopefully) to a few more appearances by him as Davos tries in vain for more ships.

    Locke — Gotta admit, Noah Taylor rocked it out in this one, and so I’ll be glad, hopefully, if we come across him again. The class resentment was personified perfectly by this character.

    Rorge and Biter — Ok, they might not even be tertiary, but quaternary characters. But Rorge used the “I’ll shove that up your bunghole” line twice, I believe. We could see them again if only as cannon fodder for Brienne. I hope so.

    Hot Pie — One of the few nice people on this list. A certain scene involving a certain Hound and a couple other bastards could take place at the Crossroads, so we might be lucky for a quick Ben Hawkey appearance, which would be nice.

    Polliver – They did enough to establish that this shitbird took Needle. The Tickler may be dead, but Polliver isn’t.

    Dagmer Cleftjaw — Assuming Ramsey Snow is not an unreliable narrator, and what he said in his letter to Balon is the truth, well, then Dagmer is dead. If not, maybe we’ll see him again. But he’s probably just fucking dead.

    Black Walder and Lame Lothar — There are so many damned Freys. But they got the look of these guys right – stupid “schmuck with earflaps” hats and weak chins. Will they be hung in the forest? End up as Frey Pie? I think one way or another, they’ll show up.

    Dontos Hollard — If he shows up at PW to pull Sansa out of there, it’ll seem weird. Maybe, maybe if they give him one more appearance one episode before that saying he’s been sent to help her. It’s not as if he’s important. I think I remember D&D saying they could use him again.

    Qyburn — Caught a glimpse of him making his way into KL just after Jaime and Brienne. So he’ll be in position to become more interesting as time goes by, of course.

  369. Hodor's Heroes
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    How about Davos to the wall with Stanis. Then they can have him transporting Sam, Aemon & Gilly south. He can join in on their adventures in Bravos (possibly meating Arya) before eventually splitting up, with him heading to White Harbor, and the other to Old Town.

  370. Chickenduck
    Posted June 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber:

    Locke — Gotta admit, Noah Taylor rocked it out in this one, and so I’ll be glad, hopefully, if we come across him again. The class resentment was personified perfectly by this character.

    Noah Taylor was awesome, as a fellow Australian I salute him. The best indication of his performance was that I didn’t see even the most hard-edged purist complain about a lack of Vargo (I’m sure someone out there did, but compared to the noise around Jeyne vs Talisa, Locke seemed a pretty popular change).

    Black Walder and Lame Lothar — There are so many damned Freys. But they got the look of these guys right – stupid “schmuck with earflaps” hats and weak chins. Will they be hung in the forest? End up as Frey Pie? I think one way or another, they’ll show up.

    Will return in some form… As they’re the only recognisable TV Freys besides Walder Snr. Either they’ll get hung by Stoneheart, or baked in a Titus Andronicus reference.

    Dontos Hollard — If he shows up at PW to pull Sansa out of there, it’ll seem weird. Maybe, maybe if they give him one more appearance one episode before that saying he’s been sent to help her. It’s not as if he’s important. I think I remember D&D saying they could use him again.

    I felt a bit sorry for him having his scenes in S2 cut at first, but it might just mean that D&D decided to keep the storyline after all, but delay it.

    Which makes sense in hindsight… Two and a half seasons of him hanging about in the shadows with Sansa without getting caught seems a bit much. Maybe show LF doesn’t decide on the Dontos-plot until after getting settled into the Eyrie…

  371. Always Winter
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Shae dies next season, no two ways about it. The question is by whose hand-my gut tells me that if ever there were a change it would be Tywin offing her instead of Tyrion, thus providing the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back for Tyrion. I know, I know, the whitewashing of The Imp and so on, but Tyrion is not as he is in the books, nor is Shae, and it just seems too brutal. That being said, the seeds of her displeasure with Tyrion have been planted, and all it would take would be one scene where Tyrion reluctantly casts her off/sends her away to give her the necessary wound to testify against him. I think Show Tywin is also a different creature, and that vein of hypocrisy from the books would feel extra out of sorts for his television incarnation. It makes more sense that he identifies Shae by her golden necklace, much like Cersei found Ros, and does her in. Shae will swing by the neck from a pretty set of chains, and I’m excited to see who dunnit!

    Could it be that Bran and Co get into a fight with a white walker and kill it using dragon glass just as Grenn and Dolorous Ed happen to be passing by? They aren’t back at the wall yet, and this way they could still witness the effects of the obsidian weaponry as a means of vouching for Sam when they do return to Castle Black.

    While I think the King’s Moot is at least postponed, there’s no reason Yard couldn’t bump into her uncles en route to rescue Theon. I’m certain Euron and Victarion are in, and either or both could be pillaging/about to pillage The Reach when they meet up with her. That way we’d have a little Shield Island nod going on without needing to flesh out that very tertiary plot point at a later date.

    With my hopes of Ros as a fake-Sansa sub crushed, my next bet is that Ramsay successfully tracks down Osha and Rickon and takes them captive. I’m not sure how that’ll help to legitimize the Bolton claim on the North (it probably serves to weaken it, actually), but the Osha-Theon connection would substitute for the Jeyne Poole one, and we know that she’s adept at escaping fortified castles. If Jon catches wind that Rickon is alive and at the Dreadfort, he’d certainly march. I just can’t see a Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya plot line coming in at this point.

    I’m interested to see if Kevan and Lancel return, or if they’ve been casually dumped. I’m expecting a slightly expanded role for Mace Tyrell, though I know everyone is quick to point out that the Lord Oaf’s story in the books is barely worth including at all.

    Dany will spend a portion of Season 4 gettin’ sexy with Daario, then she’ll be off to conquer Mereen. I thought they’d cut Yunkai if they were going to cut any of the slave cities, but they didn’t and I’m certain Mereen will be in. It’d be nice if they moved some of the difficulties of ruling into Yunkai at the beginning, just to balance things out.

    Anywho, those are some of my thoughts for now. People have posted a lot of very feasible outlines on here, and I’ve enjoyed reading them all! Speculation will keep us warm during the long winter, until April 2014 is upon us.

  372. Trearu
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    I don’t get what speaks against Shae being killed by Tyrion and the fake Arya storyline.
    Why should they have to use a previously introduced character?
    And considering, that Shae thinks Tyrion was behind the diamond bribe, her betrayal seems quiet possible.

  373. Bard
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    sunspear: Adam Whitehead,

    You are wildly overestimating the number of people who want AFFC & ADWD massively shortened. And given how long they are together, they would be able to get 2 compelling seasons out of them easily.

    Well, if they stretch AFFC/ADWD over 2 complete seasons, we won’t have to worry about Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring. The show will be canceled after season 6, I promise you that.

  374. Lollius Palicanus
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    There is room for more characters next season.
    D&D said their would be negative population growth from now on, and in season 3 we see 22 new characters (Edmure, Blackfish, Jojen, Meera, Ramsay, Olenna, Beric, Thoros, Anguy, Locke, Qyburn, Selyse, Shireen, Mance, Tormund, Orell, Missandei, Kraznys, Mero, Prendahl, Daario, Grey Worm) and 12 characters ‘disappear’ (Robb, Catelyn*, Karstark, Talisa, Ros, Hot Pie*, Orell, Old Bear, Craster, Kraznys, Mero, Prendahl) with another couple of maybes (Osha, Rickon). This means, as everyone knows, we have overall more characters this season.

    Next season there will be a lot more important ‘disappearances’, I count 14 (Joffrey, Tywin, Shae, Oberyn, Gregor*, Sandor*, Beric, Locke, Ygritte, Rattleshirt, Styr, Lysa, Balon, Polliver) and perhaps some more. So far, we have confirmation for 3 new characters (Mace, Styr, Oberyn), but Dany’s storyline will need some more characters (perhaps 3?). In any case this means there will be some room for Greyjoys and other characters in season 4, even with the negative population growth.

  375. Red Helm
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    Tyrion – mostly has problems with both Sansa and Shea, deals with Dornishmen. Gets accused of murdering Joffrey probably around episode 4, spends rest of the season in cell and on trials. Escapes and kills Tywin in episode 10.

    Arya – travles with the Hound. A lot (at least I hope so, Rory McCann doesn’t get enough screentime). They meet Polliver in episode 7 or 8, maybe Rorge and Biter are with him. Gets on a ship to Braavos in episode 10.

    Daenerys – stays to rule Yunkai or goes on a war with Meereen, hard to tell. Her romance with Daario develops, much to Jorah’s and Barristan’s concern. Either marries Hizdahr, chains dragons or banishes Jorah (maybe on some Daario-related stuff) in episode 10. Maybe does all three things.

    Jon – has hard time proving he is not a traitor, especially when Thorne comes back and Slynt arrives making more trouble. Commands the Wall during battle with wildling forces. Has to deal with Stannis by the end of the season and gets elected as new Lord Commander in episode 10.

    Bran – travels beyond the Wall, not much to do here. His crush on Meera might start to develop, has to meet Coldhands sooner or later. Rast and Karl may pose as a threat. In episode 10 he either gets saved from deserters by Coldhands or meets Children of the Forest.

    Jaime – has to learn how to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, hopefully we are introduced to more knights, not just Meryn Trant. Names Loras to Kingsguard to prevent him from marrying Cersei, maybe leading to conflict with Mace Tyrell. Gets Locke outlawed. Frees Tyrion in episode 10.

    Theon & Ramsay – go Rickon-hunting, have lots of fun (not really), have to come back when Yara invades North. Some Wex-substitute (someone, who tells Manderly, that Rickon is alive) needs to be introduced. Probably retake Moat Cailin. Welcome Roose Bolton in episode 10.

    Sansa – is sad, really wants to escape. Someone helps her – maybe Littlefinger, maybe Olenna, hopefully Dontos, one of the most wasted (no pun intended) characters in the show – after Purple Wedding. Hides in the Vale as Alayne Stone. Witnesses Lysa Arryn’s murder in episode 10.

    Brienne – goes on a mission to find escaped Sansa, has some adventures. Maybe confronts Locke instead of Shagwell/Rorge. Gets caught by Brotherhood without Banners in episode 10.

    Cersei – tries to rule, fails. Maybe takes part in fake Arya plot. Gets crazier after Joffrey’s death.

    Stannis & Davos – hard to tell. Want to travel to the Wall, don’t have much to do in meantime. Probably gather forces.

    Yara – wrecks havoc in the North. Has to come back to Iron Islands, when she learns about Balon’s death. Takes part in Kingsmoot.

    Ygritte & the Wildlings – prepare to attack the Wall from both sides now. Ygritte gets killed, Tormund somehow gets on the other side, maybe killing Donal Noye as he goes.

    Blackfish – comes back to Riverrun, starts a small rebellion with some Riverlands lords.

    Shea – is still mad at Tyrion, testifies against him. Tywin probably hangs her nevertelles or sends her “wherever whores go”.

    Gendry – I have no idea. Coming back to King’s Landing seems dumb, re-joining Brotherhood without Banners seems unreasonable. Maybe gets “put on a bus”.

  376. Adam Whitehead
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    I’m curious as to what you think D&D will do with the bit about Wyman Manderly serving “pie” to Bolton and some Freys? Will they leave it out? I’m hoping they keep it in and use Walder Frey instead of some other low-level characters. Plus it would tie in nicely with the Rat King story we heard Bran tell in the S3 finale and it will provide viewers with an outlet for all that pent up frustration and need for revenge after the RW.

    Well, they showed the Manderly guy standing behind Robb at the Red Wedding, which is the first time I think a Manderly has been shown on the show. That might be an indication the the Wyman Manderly storyline and the pies will be in. Bran relating the story of the Rat Cook suggests they are foreshadowing it as well. Plus of course they do seem to be following Theon’s story from the books and even doing more. Whether it’ll be the same as in the books remains to be seen, but I think of the AFFC/ADWD storylines this is one that’ll likely be in and reasonably close to the books.

    There is no way they can do books four and five in 1 or 1.5 seasons. No way. I know the fans think that the two books are boring and plots dont go anywhere, but they are mostly wrong. Even if there not much plot advancement there is so much that happend in these to Long books that it will take at least 2.5 probably 3 seasons to finish the two books. Seriously a lot of storyline.

    I like AFFC and ADWD a great deal, but as I said earlier we are getting into ‘pick your battles’ territory and there are a lot of new characters and subplots in AFFC/ADWD that are interesting and enjoyable, but their essential contribution to the plot is questionable. They’ve taken four seasons to cover three books, with most optimistic projections suggesting there are four seasons left to cover at least four books (assuming GRRM can still finish in seven), but some of those books may be too large to contain within one season (especially TWoW and ADoS). So the producers have to ask themselves if they want to cover everything from AFFC/ADWD, which would indeed take 2-3 seasons, at the risk of running out of time later on, or take a different approach in identifying the most essential plot points and the most interesting characters and dramatic situations and focusing on those and dropping material that can be streamlined.

    There is also the question of budget: adapting those books faithfully would require an extensive number of new sets and locations: Harlaw, Oldtown, Volantis, Braavos, Sunspear, White Harbor, Barrowton and Moat Cailin. I think time and budget considerations, combined with Benioff and Weiss’s claim that the show will not get any bigger than it is in Season 3 (and we’ve only lost three regulars from the Red Wedding, and one of them may be back, so there isn’t a lot of slack to pick up with new characters; though a post above does show there is some more room for recurring characters) and the ticking clock all heavily indicate that AFFC/ADWD will be somewhat compressed to focus on existing characters and storylines rather than new ones. I think the new storylines, particularly Dorne and the Iron Islands, will be featured, but not to the same extent as in the books.

    You are wildly overestimating the number of people who want AFFC & ADWD massively shortened. And given how long they are together, they would be able to get 2 compelling seasons out of them easily.

    I agree. If we could get GoT to nine seasons somehow, I’d prefer AFFC and ADWD to be two seasons (or one per book, but split chronologically) and still have a lot of extra space for the final two (or three) books. However, I don’t think it’s very realistic to assume we’re going to get nine seasons. In particular, with Benioff saying “We don’t want this to be a ten season show which strangles the golden goose,” it’d be weird if it then turned out that nine seasons was okay. Even eight seems to be stretching it a lot due to the cast renegotiations that would be required.

  377. Selmy
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    Eleanor,

    I think they should have Daznak’s pit in 5.9 ending with Dany mounting Drogon and flying away. Then in 5.10 we follow Barristan as he sorts out what to do next and arrests Hizdahr Zo Loraq. Then Dany only appears right near the end revealing her alive in Drogon’s cave. Then the last scene of the season will be The Ides of Snow. That would be a formula-busting shock as most people will be expecting an epic final shot and it turns out to be Jon suddenly being knifed.

    I’m also thinking that they might bring Stannis vs Roose forward into season 5 even though thats TWOW stuff. I think that in season 4 Yara will get captured by Stannis, meaning they can cut out the whole Deepwood Motte part of the story. So Stannis will spend the first few eps of season 5 at castle black (stuff like burning “Mance”, Jon executing Janos and Jon giving Stannis the advice of recruiting the Hill Tribes) then by the mid-point he’s ready to march to Winterfell for the battle (however that transpires) to happen in 5.9

    Daznak’s Pit and the battle for Winterfell should make for a suitably epic Ep 9

  378. Adam
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead: I agree. If we could get GoT to nine seasons somehow, I’d prefer AFFC and ADWD to be two seasons (or one per book, but split chronologically) and still have a lot of extra space for the final two (or three) books. However, I don’t think it’s very realistic to assume we’re going to get nine seasons. In particular, with Benioff saying “We don’t want this to be a ten season show which strangles the golden goose,” it’d be weird if it then turned out that nine seasons was okay. Even eight seems to be stretching it a lot due to the cast renegotiations that would be required.

    You’re a very knowledgeable author, no doubt (and nice first name), but I can’t help but think you’re too dead set on there being a firm season limit. Let’s say AFfC/ADwD made 2-3 seasons of compelling TV, seasons that kept people watching and engaged in GoT. Why not do it? If people are still watching and the show is reaching a climax by the end of Season 8, do you really think HBO is going to say “hey guys, you’ve reached the limit, you’re off the air now?”

    (The caveat is that around this point actors do start getting more expensive as their contracts need to be renewed, but I’m not convinced that kills the show.)

    Same with this “ten seasons, golden goose” comment. That sounds to me like an off-the-cuff remark about the philosophy behind the adaptation, not suggesting that 10 (or 9) is somehow a magical cut-off number. I see it more as a comment on not dragging the show out so long that people start to get tired of it and want to move on to something else. That could be 10 seasons, it could be 3 (on a particularly terrible show), or it could be 15. It all depends on the story.

    This story is clearly one that merits a longer run. Is that 8 seasons? 10? Well, that depends on the last two books, and we haven’t seen those yet. All the writers have to go by for now are the books that are already out.

    Which is why I’d imagine their strategy is going to be to adapt AFfC and ADwD in whatever manner keeps the show compelling, without compressing them in order to “leave room for” the next few books due to some largely artificial time limit.

  379. VARGOAT
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Vikestad,

    I think you didn´t get what i was trying to say. Im not a book purist I only believe that since D&D have no time pressure they are not forced to omit things from the books like the kingsmoot which as i said would be a great scene on television. Both of them are fans of the books and of course they like to change things every now and then but they´ve only made reasonable changes so far mostly because you just can´t keep a tv show as complex as a series of books. But omitting the kingsmoot or Bravoos would not only make the book purists go mad but would also destroy oportunities to give the show another wow effects that are going to be needed when you´re planning to put a book like AFFC on screen. And i also hope that D&D spice the whole plot of the books 5 and 6 a little bit up

  380. mariamb18
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    Agree about # seasons: this show will not go more than 7 or 8 seasons. Whatever story we have (or don’t have) will have to be managed within this time period.

    Going forward, S4 and beyond…
    I also believe that the Kingsmoot will be cut for budgetary reasons (new location, extras). Too bad – it would undoubtedly be a great scene knowing their interpretation of the Iron Islanders. At this point, I am now convinced that “negative population growth” may give us only one Greyjoy brother rather than three…Euron, I imagine.

    And if storylines at Pyke are cut then so must some in Sunspear. Arianne’s attempt to crown Myrcella and her relationship with Arys Oakheart are probably gone.

    Manderly and his pies are in, especially now that we’ve heard the story of the Rat Cook. I think that his role may be expanded. Perhaps Osha and Rickon end up in White Harbor (under his protection) rather than the Last Hearth or Skaagos.

    Greatjon of Slumber: Black Walder and Lame Lothar — There are so many damned Freys. But they got the look of these guys right – stupid “schmuck with earflaps” hats and weak chins. Will they be hung in the forest? End up as Frey Pie? I think one way or another, they’ll show up.

    Yeah – Frey Pie for those two. Love that idea! And those hats are just too funny.

    Some of Brienne’s wanderings can be cut – Nimble Dick as someone above said. I enjoyed her encounter with Septon Meribald and her visit to the Quiet Isle but they could be cut as well. I agree with those that suggest that Gendry will join up with Brienne.

    As far as Arya, there seem to be lots of suggestions that she will not go to Braavos but will receive her Faceless Man training in Westeros. Will Oldtown substitute since Jaqen/dark-haired man/Pate are already there? I actually think that this makes sense but it will be a shame to lose Braavos.

    Sam and Gilly’s very long, boring journey to Oldtown has to be compressed. The books went to great lengths to get him there, so there must be some purpose, right?

  381. PatD
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    The #1 reason they can’t follow the books explicitly anymore isn’t because of budget, or contracts, or anything like that. It’s because of the kids. They grow. And are growing. And growing. In 3 more seasons, Isaac will be 17, Maisie will be 18, Sophie will be 21, Art will be 15, and I’m not sure how old Aimee is, but she already looks about 18. I think we’re going to see some major story juggling from now on.

    So get ready for Westeros.org to implode.

  382. Adam
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    PatD:
    The #1 reason they can’t follow the books explicitly anymore isn’t because of budget, or contracts, or anything like that. It’s because of the kids. They grow. And are growing. And growing. In 3 more seasons, Isaac will be 17, Maisie will be 18, Sophie will be 21, Art will be 15, and I’m not sure how old Aimee is, but she already looks about 18. I think we’re going to see some major story juggling from now on.

    So get ready for Westeros.org to implode.

    Definitely a problem. But older actors playing younger characters isn’t unheard of, and there’s no reason (AFAIK) that the internal timeline can’t be stretched a bit so that at least Arya and Bran are in their mid-teens, for example, a few seasons down the line.

  383. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck: Noah Taylor was awesome, as a fellow Australian I salute him.The best indication of his performance was that I didn’t see even the most hard-edged purist complain about a lack of Vargo (I’m sure someone out there did, but compared to the noise around Jeyne vs Talisa, Locke seemed a pretty popular change).

    Definitely. He really impressed me. I still laugh at his line when we see the bear pit: “Well, this is one shameful fucking performance.”

  384. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    PatD:
    The #1 reason they can’t follow the books explicitly anymore isn’t because of budget, or contracts, or anything like that. It’s because of the kids. They grow. And are growing. And growing. In 3 more seasons, Isaac will be 17, Maisie will be 18, Sophie will be 21, Art will be 15, and I’m not sure how old Aimee is, but she already looks about 18. I think we’re going to see some major story juggling from now on.

    So get ready for Westeros.org to implode.

    Ralph Macchio was playing the Karate Kid when he was in his late 20s. (Admittedly, he’s a freak – he’s in his 50s now and still looks like he’s 32.) Unless Art Parkinson turns into a beanpole, I don’t see this as a problem. Sophie Turner, Maisie Williams and Isaac Hempstead-Wright are all too strong as actors to replace them. Kids play young all the time. We went through this in the Harry Potter movies and it never became a problem, and none of the 3 are especially “old” looking. They’ll be fine, and the show will be fine.

  385. Selmy
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    I see no problem with them looking older. I like the fact that the kids are older in the series. I could never imagine a ten-year-old doing stuff that Arya does. Or a 14-year old king being able to win battles or a 16-year old being an effective lord commander. I think watching the kids grow up as it goes along will be cool.

  386. NukeDorne
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    It’s a shame that Yara isn’t going to Deepwood Motte, because the chapter where the Mountain Clans attack is one of my favorite chapters in DwD. The image of those camouflaged warriors would have looked great onscreen. Though I suppose that if it makes the rest of the story easier to adapt it will be worth it.

  387. mags giantsbabe
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Wildseed

    I don’t want to get my own hopes up either. But any references to prophecy is probably best done by way of suggestion too, not giving too much away at once. This whole thread has gotten my hopes up, especially for Jon’s story. If they give him more screen time than usual, they will be able to fit in all the nb elements of his story in aSoS. It will possibly improve Kit’s acting too if he has more to work with. But with that said, the second part of aSoS has arguably the best Jon moments in itself in the Series. And with the absence of Robb there should be a sort of protagonist people can identify with.

  388. Bard
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Adam: You’re a very knowledgeable author, no doubt (and nice first name), but I can’t help but think you’re too dead set on there being a firm season limit. Let’s say AFfC/ADwD made 2-3 seasons of compelling TV, seasons that kept people watching and engaged in GoT. Why not do it? If people are still watching and the show is reaching a climax by the end of Season 8, do you really think HBO is going to say “hey guys, you’ve reached the limit, you’re off the air now?” [...]

    Which is why I’d imagine their strategy is going to be to adapt AFfC and ADwD in whatever manner keeps the show compelling, without compressing them in order to “leave room for” the next few books due to some largely artificial time limit.

    I really don’t see that happening. Season 4 will be a once again a great success, but season 5 probably a disappointment compared to that. If you stretch the whole thing over two complete seasons, the show will loose a large part of its audience during and after season 6 and, as I said before, will probably be cancelled.

    And where shall be the transition between season 5 and 6, if you only use stuff from AFFC/ADWD? There are no compelling cliffhangers. Dany would spend 3 seasons in Meereen (4,5 and 6)! There would be 2 seasons with Jon, Stannis and Melisandre hanging around at the wall, doing (almost) nothing. Tyrion would travel to Meereen over the course of 2 seasons and won’t even meet Daenerys at the end of it. 2 seasons with a Cersei and Margaery bitchfest in King’s Landing. Etc. etc. It’s simply not a good idea IMHO.

    (Sorry if I should have made any grammatical errors, I’m not a native speaker).

  389. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe,

    Elio has a theory that Iceland negatively affects the acting in Game of Thrones. I just happen to think that Kit is not a great actor. Season 4 will be his make or break year as he will have a ton of material

  390. sdccgotgirl
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Wanted to post this on the Michelle Fairley Curtain Call page…but I know that page is mainly for Actor(tress) appreciation so I will post this here….NOOOOOOOOO!!!! I’m really hoping that the curtain call is because that was the end of that character and not the actress! Still holding out hope to see Lady Stoneheart! And hoping that you guys don’t have “Insider” information! Been awhile since I’ve read SOS…can someone please refresh my memory on exactly how early or late in the book Lady Stoneheart shows up? Was it at the end, before or after the Purple Wedding?

  391. Nic
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    sdccgotgirl:
    Wanted to post this on the Michelle Fairley Curtain Call page…but I know that page is mainly for Actor(tress) appreciation so I will post this here….NOOOOOOOOO!!!!I’m really hoping that the curtain call is because that was the end of that character and not the actress!Still holding out hope to see Lady Stoneheart!And hoping that you guys don’t have “Insider” information! Been awhile since I’ve read SOS…can someone please refresh my memory on exactly how early or late in the book Lady Stoneheart shows up?Was it at the end, before or after the Purple Wedding?

    LS shows up at the end of A Storm of Swords.

    I too hope they bring Michelle back.

  392. Nic
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Bard,

    Agree. All of my unsullied friends are asking me when Dany gets to Westeros. If I tell them she is still in Slaver’s Bay after 3 more books they will all laugh in disbelief.

    Dany needs to get the hell out of Meereen by early season 6 at the absolute latest IMO.

  393. mags giantsbabe
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak

    I doubt if the weather affected the acting (maybe it affected the amount of takes they could do). He had, from what I could remember, about two standout moments in S2 (the one with Sam and the freedom dialogue with Ygritte). I agree with you that S4 could be his make or break (and for Jon’s storyline, for that matter). I’m just waiting to see other projects to see if he is, in fact, average, good or great.

    Irrelevant to the thread but it still beats me as to how someone like Natalie Dormer can get in with great dialogue in S3 after her arc in S2, and then Kit had an awesome S1 arc with a poor follow-up arc in S2 (little screentime, mostly poor dialogue). The only reason I can think of is D&D looove their women. Same reason Emilia also gets ample amounts of screentime. Am I wrong?

  394. Alexandre Boivin
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    I wonder how they will manage to introduce the brienne part in the future season because when she come to kingslanding, sansa is already gone, now they are at the same place at the same time, and how jaime will react at the wedding.

  395. Alexandre Boivin
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    What would you do if GRRM is not able to finish the books before the show. Like if book 6 is on par with the first 3 books and we are left with hope that book 7 will be amazing, would you be able to wait for the final book to be publish or will you watch the end of the serie on tv. I understand that the show is amazing but to be able to read it before watching it, i don’t know.

  396. Alexandre Boivin
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Alexandre Boivin:
    What would you do if GRRM is not able to finish the books before the show. Like if book 6 is on par with the first 3 books and we are left with hope that book 7 will be amazing, would you be able to wait for the final book to be publish or will you watch the end of the serie on tv. I understand that the show is amazing but to be able to read it before watching it, i don’t know.

    Also is it really impossible to make the season a little longer, like 12-15, i think 12 is possible and 15 a dream, i mean with all the succes they have it could be possible.

  397. Darquemode
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Alexandre Boivin,

    It is a tough choice, but thankfully we have time to consider our options!

    I think if we look at books 1-3 as the Act I of ASOIAF and books 4-5 as Act II, we are just hitting Act III with the upcoming book and I expect great things. We have read the personal journeys that have changed our characters (typical of a second act) …and now it is time for the pieces to fall into the endgame!

    I for one am excited!

  398. Alexandre Boivin
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Do you think that back in 2004 if GRRM had published the book 4 as he wanted it would have been a better decision. I think of yes because he would not have to care about the thing that were happening at the same time for the other caracters and have the pressure to have a book as big as the other one. Now splitting the books he had to had more stuff to make the book 4 longer, as for book 5. Now i think he can write more freely, but in the same time he is under pressure because he want to finish the books before the show, but pressure can be good too, so that might help him.

    These of course are all speculation.

  399. Darquemode
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Alexandre Boivin,

    A few people have commented that GRRM has stated it was a mistake to split the books like he did, but I have not seen those articles personally. I’m not sure of his reasons, but maybe he did extend the two books to fill out each book like you suggest.

    I think Book 4 had to have those kind of slowed down arcs that really showed character evolution more than plot movement…. (Maybe book 5 did too honestly). I think if he used a more traditional format (with all characters in each book) more readers would have liked it a bit more, but many would still have disliked it because they expected huge plot movement. That is just not going to happen in a second act normally.

    Maybe I’m biased though since I liked Books 4 and 5. XD

  400. Alexandre Boivin
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    I like those 2 books too, but as you said, act 1 was over and maybe the fouth book was suppose to be a set up book for the last 2 book, new caracter, putting the pieces together, in those books he deal with the consequense of act 1 and set up the events of act 3, because in those 2 books we have way more questions than answer, we have 0 answer, Dany, Sam, Jon, Tyrion, Davos, Sansa, Brienne, Jaime and so on, maybe he will put more caracter together so we have less different pov chapter.

  401. Stacia
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    PatD:
    The #1 reason they can’t follow the books explicitly anymore isn’t because of budget, or contracts, or anything like that. It’s because of the kids. They grow. And are growing. And growing. In 3 more seasons, Isaac will be 17, Maisie will be 18, Sophie will be 21, Art will be 15, and I’m not sure how old Aimee is, but she already looks about 18. I think we’re going to see some major story juggling from now on.

    The kids getting older isn’t entirely a bad thing. There are restrictions on the hours underage actors can work.

    Most actors in their early 20s still play teens, so the Stark kids aging isn’t that big of a deal. Both Bran and Maisie can play younger. Girls rarely have late growth spurts, so Maisie is going to stay very short, while Isaac won’t be standing.

    Also, there is the possibility of Rickon, Tommen and Marcella being recast with younger actors. Or actors better capable of playing the roles. They perhaps were cast primarily based on looks since they were minor roles. Fans may know who the actors are, but the typical viewer doesn’t. After growth spurts and growing up casual viewers may not even recognize them.

    Callum Wharry wasn’t seen in Season 3 but Tommen should be having a very large role in the future. In Blackwater, he was a little big when sitting on Cersei’s lap. However, if they recast Tommen with an 8 year old, then there’s even fewer hours for that actor on the set and it becomes even creepier with Tommen and Margaery.

  402. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    Book 4-5 supposed to be one book so I would look at or like 1-2 are act 1. 3-4-5 act 2. 6-7 act 3.
    But honestly I look at these books like that and I don’t believe he will finish it in 2 more books

  403. Alexandre Boivin
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfyre,

    What do you mean, you think he gonna take more than 7 books to finish, if that’s the case i’m ok with it, as long as he finish it, i don’t want unfinished book like the wheel of time and dune.

  404. WildSeed
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    mags giantsbabe,

    Elio has a theory that Iceland negatively affects the acting in Game of Thrones. I just happen to think that Kit is not a great actor. Season 4 will be his make or break year as he will have a ton of material

    I concur.

  405. WildSeed
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe:
    Wildseed

    I don’t want to get my own hopes up either. But any references to prophecy is probably best done by way of suggestion too, not giving too much away at once. This whole thread has gotten my hopes up, especially for Jon’s story. If they give him more screen time than usual, they will be able to fit in all the nb elements of his story in aSoS. It will possibly improve Kit’s acting too if he has more to work with. But with that said, the second part of aSoS has arguably the best Jon moments in itself in the Series. And with the absence of Robb there should be a sort of protagonist people can identify with.

    Good point. Kit Harington definitely has an exterior fan base , not owing to his acting
    ability but ” hotness quotient “. With an evolving story the audience whom remain
    eager for substance in the script may have their due , eventually.

  406. WildSeed
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead: Well, they showed the Manderly guy standing behind Robb at the Red Wedding, which is the first time I think a Manderly has been shown on the show. That might be an indication the the Wyman Manderly storyline and the pies will be in. Bran relating the

    Ah.. wish I’d noticed the small scene. I’ll look forward to an expansion of
    televised plot then, if future episodes or seasons.

  407. Chickenduck
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    mags giantsbabe,

    Elio has a theory that Iceland negatively affects the acting in Game of Thrones. I just happen to think that Kit is not a great actor. Season 4 will be his make or break year as he will have a ton of material

    Elio says a lot of things…

    I agree with you and WildSeed, the primary issue with Jon Snow is Kit’s acting ability. Not all of Jon’s scenes were even in Iceland… the cave, the tent with Mance etc were all shot indoors in Northern Ireland.

    And before people say “I blame the writers”, there are plenty of other actors who did a great job with hardly any lines, or with lines that were quite unremarkable on paper.

    Sansa broke my heart last week looking out a window and not saying anything. Kit does not have the acting chops to do that.

    (P.S. I’m not saying Kit’s terrible, he’s just not in the same league as most of the other leads).

  408. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2013 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Maybe Kit’s foot has healed so that he can engage in a few more active scenes in S4. Many of his S3 running and dashing scenes (even his naked posterior scene) were done by stand-ins. I’m sure his injury complicated filming and the development of his character. I hope they up the ante with his character (and Ghost) in S4.

  409. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe,

    I don’t think it has anything to do with the writing. The actors playing Stannis and Cersei and many others deliver excellent performances without getting to much to work with. However, I do believe great writing can make up for average acting. This is why I think season 4 is crucial to Kit. I would even suggest not casting Donal Noye and using Grenn instead to take his place. The reaction of Jon Snow to his sacrifice would make for great tv

  410. WildSeed
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I really enjoyed Kit’s scenes in S1, really. I also get a sense that when more
    seasoned actors are balanced with any particular scene, he shines as well.
    An example of that was in S3 with Hinds and Hivju. Season two was a joke.
    Sometimes even a veteran actor may prove weak in a challenging scene
    that stretches their limits, others with fresh talent might excel with the
    first offer. Emilia Clark is a fine example of that. She won’t be the first
    or last, for that matter. Brodie-Sangster exhibited such pure performances
    as a much younger boy in ” Nanny Mc Phee ” that he seemed down right
    precocious. We’ll have to wait until his GoT character receives enough
    to prove his brilliance. And you’re so right about Sophie, her despair or
    joy is well expressed, even without words.

    ASOIAF is a challenge in of itself, a quickly changing locale and anticipation.

    As for Kit Harrington’s ankle, that wasn’t an issue during S2 early scenes.
    It was the driven plot debacle, ask Qhorin Halfhand.

    Mercifully , we the viewer with high demands or reasonable expectation, may
    have our due , as seasons continue to pace themselves well. We’ve already
    experienced a solid season just recently. Jon is in it for the long haul
    and I’m happy to wait.

  411. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Regarding Quorin, do you feel the writers could have handled his scenes better? I feel if they handled his scenes the way the book did it would have called for serious suspension of disbelief from the viewers part. Ex: Quorin sends Jon to behead Ygritte knowing he won’t do it and will run to her wildlings friends which defeats the purpose of a scouting mission

  412. WildSeed
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Benioff and Weiss have stressed often, that along with tweaks they’d instructed
    writers to convey, the script is punctuated to the strength of the actor in those scenes.
    They have to own those roles.

    I am in awe of most of Dillane’s work. I am disappointed in the scripted portrayal
    of Stannis , with respect to Melisandre taking credit for everything. I’m biased, but
    he effectively emotes that character , enough to satisfy. For that matter, so does
    Ms Houton. Headley is another story, she embodies Cersei in appearance, as
    coiffure and apparel require, but she lacks book Cersei’s vileness. She’s absolutely
    fabulous in small doses though, to that I say ” very good indeed “.

  413. WildSeed
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    No, a verbatim exercise would have been drawn out ad infinitum. It would be
    like watching an entire episode unfold onscreen. Streamlining was essential.
    Time was wasted on perfecting Ygritte while she starred alongside Jon.
    Initially, I believed this was the audience’s only time to get acquainted with
    her, so I observed in earnest as everyone else did. I had no idea that her
    character would receive extra scenes as she did , in following episodes
    or season. As a result, I kinda like onscreen Ygritte a tad more, however at an
    expense of cheating Qhorin efficient time to establish a better plan to Jon.
    Perhaps it was perceived that onscreen Jon could make a case for Qhorin’s
    plan and hold his honour as a Night’s Watch brother ( I’d hoped ). Yet it
    proved a misstep.

  414. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I also don’t like the portrayal of Stannis at all. To me it goes back to one of the season 2 “inside episodes” in which either David Beinoff or Dan Weiss state that “Stannis would make a terrible king”. I believe D&D have a bias against Stannis which is shaping their portrayal of him. They’ve purposely excluded Stannis great humanizing line “I tried to save the kingdoms by winning the throne…when I should have tried to win the throne by saving the kingdoms”. They are doing a great injustice to his character even though Dilane’s acting is still superb.

  415. Matt Chung
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    GUYS I DON’T KNOW WHERE ELSE TO PUT THIS BUT I CAME UP WITH THIS CRAZY FAN THEORY

    What if TV show Grey Worm or Daario is actually Quentyn Martell? I’ve been trying to figure out why D&D decided to include both of them, seeing as they both are kind of cuttable characters. It would cut out a very costly introduction of a PoV character and streamline the story significantly and allow them include Quentyn without making the viewers go “now who the hell is THIS guy?” I guess Grey Worm would have the stronger case since he is of a more Dornish appearance than Daario. It’d be a nice twist for book readers too since, well, there’s not an awful lot else than D&D can surprise us with.

    Well, how about it, guys? Am I crazy for thinking this?

  416. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    A

    Matt Chung:
    GUYS I DON’T KNOW WHERE ELSE TO PUT THIS BUT I CAME UP WITH THIS CRAZY FAN THEORY

    What if TV show Grey Worm or Daario is actually Quentyn Martell? I’ve been trying to figure out why D&D decided to include both of them, seeing as they both are kind of cuttable characters. It would cut out a very costly introduction of a PoV character and streamline the story significantly and allow them include Quentyn without making the viewers go “now who the hell is THIS guy?” I guess Grey Worm would have the stronger case since he is of a more Dornish appearance than Daario. It’d be a nice twist for book readers too since, well, there’s not an awful lot else than D&D can surprise us with.

    Well, how about it, guys? Am I crazy for thinking this?

    Yes

  417. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    Adam: You’re a very knowledgeable author, no doubt (and nice first name), but I can’t help but think you’re too dead set on there being a firm season limit. Let’s say AFfC/ADwD made 2-3 seasons of compelling TV, seasons that kept people watching and engaged in GoT. Why not do it? If people are still watching and the show is reaching a climax by the end of Season 8, do you really think HBO is going to say “hey guys, you’ve reached the limit, you’re off the air now?”

    (The caveat is that around this point actors do start getting more expensive as their contracts need to be renewed, but I’m not convinced that kills the show.)

    Same with this “ten seasons, golden goose” comment. That sounds to me like an off-the-cuff remark about the philosophy behind the adaptation, not suggesting that 10 (or 9) is somehow a magical cut-off number. I see it more as a comment on not dragging the show out so long that people start to get tired of it and want to move on to something else. That could be 10 seasons, it could be 3 (on a particularly terrible show), or it could be 15. It all depends on the story.

    This story is clearly one that merits a longer run. Is that 8 seasons? 10? Well, that depends on the last two books, and we haven’t seen those yet. All the writers have to go by for now are the books that are already out.

    Which is why I’d imagine their strategy is going to be to adapt AFfC and ADwD in whatever manner keeps the show compelling, without compressing them in order to “leave room for” the next few books due to some largely artificial time limit.

    This

  418. Yvonne of Tarth
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    Fraq,

    I agree on most of the things you mentioned.
    Kings Landing:
    episode 1 – meet the Martells; Loras confronts Bryanne
    episode 2 – Tyrion befriends Red Viper; Loras decides to join the Kings Guard
    episode 3 – last preparations for the PW; interactions between Lannisters, Martells and Tyrells
    episode 4 – PW
    episode 5 – preparations for the trial
    episode 6 – Tyrion’s trial begins
    episode 7 – Mountain vs. Red Viper
    episode 8 – ends with Tyrion being released from his cell
    episode 9 – Tywin doesn’t shit gold
    episode 10 – Tyrion on his way to Braavos. It would be great to have Aria on the same boat with him and have two different PoV of Braavos.

    Lady Stoneheart – I believe she will appear in episode 10 if ever

    The Wall – I think they will end the season with Jon Snow becoming LC in episode 10. Sam’s lobbying will probably happen in episode 9

    Bran – I think the season will end with Bran reaching the cave, probably in episode 8 or 10. If they don’t cast anyone new for playing Coldhands, it would be quite safe to assume it is Benjin Stark as speculated by many.

    Rickon – I do think we will see Ramsey hunt Rickon, probably as early as episodes 3 and 4.

    Arya – I think they will prolong Arya/Hound storyline as much as they can, probably as far as episode 8 or 9

    Sansa – I do not think we will see Littlefinger killing Lysa Arryn in season 4.

    Daenerys – I think the emphasis of season 4 are KL and the Wall. DT will probably show off her dragons and fall in love. Oh, and she will banish Jorah in episode 9 and start ruling alone.

  419. taim
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    mags giantsbabe,

    its obvious that the favourite characters of the writers are dany and tyrion, and maybe jaime too. They always get great stuff to do. Especially Dany gets so much screen time, she is obviously their favourite, also of course the last scene of the season was once again a dany scene, it becomes kind of annoying… other characters suffer from that, I think that the writers don’t do jon justice for example, also Stannis doesn’t get the good scenes/ writing…

  420. Adam
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Yvonne of Tarth,

    Interesting thought on Tyrion going to Braavos rather than Pentos. Presumably that would be to save money on the set? Maybe, but even in the pilot they didn’t mind shooting a few scenes for one character in “Pentos” and Tyrion won’t be there for long. Not to mention, they’ve already established Pentos as Magister Illyrio’s city, and Braavos as the city where the Faceless Men train. So I’m not saying it’s impossible they’ll send Tyrion and Arya to the same place, but they would have to do some acrobatics to make it happen.

  421. Paul Blackfyre
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    It’s impossible to know how many seasons the show will have. It depends on too many things (Martin’s two final books; the actors’ contrats; ratings; etc)…

  422. Sean C.
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of SlumberWe went through this in the Harry Potter movies and it never became a problem

    Not really a comparison, since the kids in HP aged year to year, whereas Sansa (for instance) is still 13 in the books (14, in the show).

  423. WildSeed
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    WildSeed,

    I also don’t like the portrayal of Stannis at all. To me it goes back to one of the season 2 “inside episodes” in which either David Beinoff or Dan Weiss state that “Stannis would make a terrible king”. I believe D&D have a bias against Stannis which is shaping their portrayal of him. They’ve purposely excluded Stannis great humanizing line “I tried to save the kingdoms by winning the throne…when I should have tried to win the throne by saving the kingdoms”. They are doing a great injustice to his character even though Dilane’s acting is still superb.

    GoT Stannis had shown some resolve at the Blackwater Battle scenes, and a tidbit
    here and there. But , as you say, his character has been dealt a bad hand of cards
    to play the role with aplomb. By contrast, book Stannis was not only stoic and
    forever conceiving a plan to move forward, you’d easily forget he was brooding
    or grinding his teeth for a moment. He was decisive and unwavering. His
    determination to achieve his means went to the expense of ignoring Mel & others
    whom may have offered a different POV. Not to discount Melisandre’s influence
    on him, he believed in his new faith, the Fire god. Others may disagree but I found
    Mel an annoying character until she followed Stannis to Castle Black.
    From there, GRRM’s writing shifted, her purpose and strengths exacted a bit more.
    We learned her limitations and what she too were up against. The heavy hand in
    writing her significant in S3 was a misstep, IMO.

    One scene that bothers me to this day , aside for Mel taking credit in Stannis’s
    decision to pay heed to maester Aemon’s letter
    , was that choking scene ( S2 ).
    Stannis , no doubt rolled in the hay with the Red lady, but he would never lose
    his cool like that. The scene was unnecessarily violent and construed an
    impulsive man. Emotional Stannis is just…… inconceivable. The man is
    eerily detached or aloof, to the observer.

    Earlier GoT scenes confirmed his foreknowledge that he openly advocated the
    murder of Renley. I’ve only read the books once, but I perceived that as
    ambiguous . I would not rule out that he later perceived Mel’s machinations,
    but he did not seem that detached or cruel. He will always argue he is just,
    but not vile in intent.

    That threat posed to Davos’s son, before the Blackwater, was another implication
    that she heavily influenced the failed outcome, and his death by fire. Did I
    miss any rational for that in my reasoning , was that in the book ? Why would
    she undermine Azor Ahai reborn (?), LOL.

    Finally, I have learned to accept the screen version or ignore poorly made
    dramatics as I di with Robb and Catelyn Stark’s one dimensional portrayals.
    At some point, a scene or episode may produce a stellar performance.
    There are too many other scenes that prove worthy of the writers efforts
    in those. To round it out, it’s been a helluva effort at adapting for the screen.
    Stannis and the Starks withstanding, I am really in awe of what the
    production has accomplished.

  424. Yvonne of Tarth
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Adam,

    You are right, but they did pair Arya and Tywin and it worked well, so it might be interesting to see her sharing the same space with Tyrion, especially since it would be highly symbolic – both of them are starting from scratch and facing uncertain futures in exile while coming from high-power houses on demise.

  425. Yvonne of Tarth
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Can’t agree more. Dillane is just amazing. He makes you care for Stannis despite of the script.

  426. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    As an aside for this “speculation” thread (aren’t they all?), is anyone wondering how the “dwarf show” will be handled at the PW, if at all? Given the race and cultural sensitivities that on full display in the Dorne thread, how will the vertically-challenged react to this obvious stereotype (to humor Joffrey at Tyrion’s expense). I wonder if it will be used as foreshadowing of Tyrion’s destiny in Essos…maybe he will even escape KL with Penny and Groat in tow?

  427. xbastaki
    Posted June 16, 2013 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    TastesLikeTheSea,

    Amen!!!!!!

  428. Adam Whitehead
    Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    You’re a very knowledgeable author, no doubt (and nice first name), but I can’t help but think you’re too dead set on there being a firm season limit. Let’s say AFfC/ADwD made 2-3 seasons of compelling TV, seasons that kept people watching and engaged in GoT. Why not do it? If people are still watching and the show is reaching a climax by the end of Season 8, do you really think HBO is going to say “hey guys, you’ve reached the limit, you’re off the air now?”

    I think you need to plan with an end in mind. LOST, after losing the plot in the second half of Season 2 and the first half of Season 3, got a lot better once they set an end date. Although the ending was divisive (to be charitable), the show did seem to benefit once they knew what they were doing. Same with BABYLON 5 and DEEP SPACE NINE: knowing there was a five and seven-year limit on each show really helped them focus. THE X-FILES, on the other hand, just kind of sprawled directionlessly and kept having to introduce filler to get to the end and it just killed the show dead for the last few seasons.

    I think with THRONES knowing when the end is and working towards it is something that can only benefit the show and focus the writing and characterisation. I’m sure there is a show somewhere that can generate ten really compelling seasons with no filler or repetition, but if there is I’ve never encountered it. The longer the show goes on, sadly the more likely it is to start sucking hard at some point, either due to plot wheel-spinning (whether their own or inherited from the books), lack of movement towards a discernible ending or due to the cast or crew starting to want to move on and delivering subpar work, or indeed actually quitting before their roles are done.

  429. Adam
    Posted June 17, 2013 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    I agree 100% on the merits of setting an end date.

    But none of these shows had source material guiding them. The question here isn’t where the story is going and what the end game is, as it was on shows like Lost and the X-Files which were largely making it up as they went along. The question with Thrones is how much of an already-established (and presumably decently-planned) story they want to show.

    So I say: go ahead and show whichever bits make for compelling TV. However many seasons you get, that’s how the cookie crumbles. That seems more sensible to me than setting an arbitrary end date and then potentially cramming later on in order to stay within those bounds.

  430. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted June 18, 2013 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    As an aside for this “speculation” thread (aren’t they all?), is anyone wondering how the “dwarf show” will be handled at the PW, if at all? Given the race and cultural sensitivities that on full display in the Dorne thread, how will the vertically-challenged react to this obvious stereotype (to humor Joffrey at Tyrion’s expense).I wonder if it will be used as foreshadowing of Tyrion’s destiny in Essos…maybe he will even escape KL with Penny and Groat in tow?

    –I don’t think the cultural sensitivities will come into play simply because it will be made clear (if they do this) that it is seen as a further humiliation of Tyrion (and Penny), and won’t be seen as the show making fun of him, but Joffrey making fun of him. If they do it. If not, who cares…Joffrey’s feelings for his uncle are pretty clear by now.

    –If they *DO* go ahead with this mummer’s farce, I doubt the others would escape KL with Tyrion. Wouldn’t make sense given the focus on the character in question who is more important.

  431. Adam Whitehead
    Posted June 18, 2013 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Adam:
    Adam Whitehead,

    I agree 100% on the merits of setting an end date.

    But none of these shows had source material guiding them. The question here isn’t where the story is going and what the end game is, as it was on shows like Lost and the X-Files which were largely making it up as they went along. The question with Thrones is how much of an already-established (and presumably decently-planned) story they want to show.

    So I say: go ahead and show whichever bits make for compelling TV. However many seasons you get, that’s how the cookie crumbles. That seems more sensible to me than setting an arbitrary end date and then potentially cramming later on in order to stay within those bounds.

    True and that is a benefit. However, having a plan for the overall storyline – which is what effectively the novels and the outlines of post-ADWD material in essence are – is not much good if you don’t know how long it will take to execute that plan. You may have to cram all of that material into three seasons (and feel too rushed) or you could let it breathe over six but risk feeling too slow and maybe having to introduce yet more non-book stuff to fill the gaps.

  432. Adam
    Posted June 18, 2013 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    That’s all reasonable. My thought is, since they’re scripting out a season at a time, as long as they make each season seem neither rushed nor filler-y, given that they have an idea where they’re going (which is why they won’t make LOST Season 3), then they’ll end up at a number of seasons that feels right. But they don’t have to get a number of seasons in advance – all they can/should do is take it a season at a time.

  433. Steve H
    Posted June 20, 2013 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    I just don’t think that they will go only 7 seasons. It’s got to go 8. To give GRRM time, and, more importantly, to milk it for all the money they can. This show is making HBO money, making D&D money, I can’t imagine that they’re in a huge hurry to end it.

    In that vein, I think this season will be mostly Storm of Swords, with maybe a tiny bit of books 4 and 5 filtering into Episode 10.

    I think Arya’s story line will be expanded by having either Jaqen Hagar or Syrio Forel show up (possibly the same person…) again after she leaves the Hound.

    Bran’s storyline could be expanded by meeting Coldhands, finding out Coldhands is Benjen, and then Bran him “falling into the past” which would help show us some of the backstory we’ve never seen. Especially with Bran being with the Reeds. We could see Benjen and the Reeds telling Bran stories, and then Bran having visions of the past, learn about the Reed’s father and his relationship with Ned. Possibly with someone else cast as a young Ned. Maybe we could see some of that awesome backstory we’ve never seen. Rhaegar, Ser Arthur Dayne, etc. etc. Also the past of Bloodraven, which would set us up for Bran actually meeting him in Season 5. I doubt we’d see the flashbacks, but I’d sure love to see them!

    Theon’s storyline, as others have mentioned, could be expanded by having Ramsey and Reek go hunting for Rickon and then meeting Yara. Yara ends up being marginalized in the Kingsmoot, anyway. Maybe they kill her off. I am not a fan of the casting, anyway. And she doesn’t seem to do much after the Kingsmoot.

    I sure hopee Arya goes to Braavos and I sure hope Sam goes there and then to Oldtown. They could introduce Oldtown a little bit in this season, too.

    There is a ton of material, the question is, what is their schedule….

  434. Brock Russell
    Posted June 20, 2013 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    Steve H,

    Yes! That would be amazing if we got some flashbacks through Bran. Tower of Joy stuff, maybe some Bloodraven. Assuming Coldhands is Benjen (I believe he is) I don’t think they should spill the beans just yet. We could see the flashbacks through Bran’s dreams, I believe.

    As far as Theon, I’ve said it on another thread here before, I think those two ladies who seduced him will play a bigger part. I think the blonde will try to escape with him, only for them to get caught. She will die, and the audience will be led to believe Theon is dead (Like at the end of aCoK) Possibly halfway through season 4? So we won’t get any Theon/Reek for the rest of season 4 until he shows up as full-blown Reek halfway through season 5. I also believe the seductive brunette will be fake Arya. Hold me on that…

  435. Adam
    Posted June 20, 2013 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    I also believe the seductive brunette will be fake Arya. Hold me on that…

    Ha. You just want to see more of her, don’t you? (And so do I, oh boy so do I!)

  436. Unbowd UnbentUnHodor
    Posted June 24, 2013 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    Brock Russell,

    i like your ideas about those to girls and theon. I do hope thats true! such a good idea

  437. Garlan NAITS
    Posted June 25, 2013 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Random thought – the scene of dwarf jousting on the pig and dog at the PW. Surprisingly, this small portion of the PW sets the stage for a significant portion of Tyrion’s storyline in DoD. I’m not sure that it makes sense to include it, in part because I’m not sure it could be effectively filmed, in part because I wouldn’t be the one to ask Peter Dinklage to do that in a couple of seasons. But that would probably mean the excision of Penny and a lot of that interaction from DoD. Thoughts?

  438. Garlan NAITS
    Posted June 25, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Steve H,

    I thought DnD said at some point that they wouldn’t do flashbacks. Which is a shame, since I’ve been tormented about the Tower of Joy since I first read the books. It seems like at some point it will have to be addressed unless GRRM basically included it without it having future importance. Not sure how you do it without a flashback (Ned Stark sighting!) other than someone saying what happened, which seems less impactful somehow.

  439. edward
    Posted June 27, 2013 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    Yosde,

    tyrion is gonna kill tywin in episode 9 and then episode 10 cersei dsimisses kevan and rules the 7 kingdoms by herself

  440. Starkfell91
    Posted July 4, 2013 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    It’s going to be weird with Jamie being back at KL before Joffery’s wedding. I’m not sure how they will spin that. Episode 9 will be Tyrion’s trial.(PLEASE BRING BACK CONAN STEVENS!!!!!) I don’t think were going to see Lady Stoneheart until the last episode.


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