Ask a GoT Writer: Bryan Cogman on Stannis, the torturing of Theon and more
By Winter Is Coming on in Production.

Stannis

Ask a GoT Writer is back for round two! Once again, the indomitable Bryan Cogman is back to answer your questions. Bryan took a break from his busy schedule filming season 4 to provide answers to questions about the characterization of Stannis, the torturing of Theon, adapting future books, and about… indigo? Anyway, head past the jump for the answers!

Jonathan: As a fan of the show and books, I’ve noticed that the show really revels in having scenes that pair off certain characters and their relationships in ways that can’t be done in the books, especially with non-POV characters. The Robert and Cersei scene from season one, Arya and Tywin’s scenes, Varys and Olenna, all come to mind, along with many others. When making these scenes, do you just sort of think “what would happen if character A and character B had a conversation?” or is there more that goes into it? Also, are there any specific characters that you would personally be really interested in pairing off in one of these types of scenes, where you just set the two characters down in a scene together and sort of see what happens next (regardless of location, canon, and/or their respective states of being alive or dead)?

Bryan: It varies from scene to scene. In some cases, it’s “wouldn’t it be fun if these two got together?” and you get a scene like Bronn & The Hound in “Blackwater”. In Season One (as I’ve talked about before) it was more of out necessity — some of hte episodes were running short and we needed new scenes that could be relatively low cost and use our existing sets, so you got those two-handers like Robert/Cersei. But most of the time, from Season Two on, it has to do with new or adjusted story lines — for instance, the expanded King’s Landing marriage plot of Season Three which was adapted to heavily involve Varys, hence the scene he shared with Olenna. So it varies, but, yes, we do love doing it.

Bex: Was making Talisa’s intentions ambiguous (i.e. the Lannister honeypot theory) an intentional red herring, or merely a by-product of active fan imaginations?

Bryan: As far as I know: the latter. Though, watching it back, I totally see why people might have thought that.

Duncan: There has been criticism of Theon’s story arc this season, specifically the graphic torture scenes. As a book reader, I understand why this was done but, at the same time, found it difficult to watch. Can you give us insight into the thought-process that went into writing Theon’s scenes this season? Was it accepted that this arc would be uncomfortable (or perhaps a turn-off) for viewers?

Bryan: Yes, the idea behind the Theon subplot was to put the viewer in Theon’s POV — confusion, fear, disgust, horror… and yes, frustration, at the fact that he didn’t know where he was or who was torturing him. And, yes, the torture scenes were meant to provoke and make the viewer uncomfortable. But more importantly, they were meant to show how Theon is taken apart (physically and mentally) step by step. The subplot was also designed to introduce viewers to Ramsay Snow, who emerges as a major character. But, yeah, it’s rough to watch on purpose — we figured it wouldn’t be for everybody.

Cat of the Canals: The bath scene with Jaime and Brienne from Kissed by Fire was one of the best scenes of season 3, as the writer of the episode were you there during the shooting the scene and do you think that you got the desired result?

Bryan: Ah, thank you. Yes, I was there the night we shot and it’s probably the single best shoot day I’ve had on GAME OF THRONES thus far. It was a tricky scene to adapt — there’s a helluva lot going on and you want to keep the emotional thru-line clear while also conveying the exposition you need, so I was very gratified (though not at all surprised) to see it so well executed by Nikolaj, Gwen, and director Alex Graves. It was a very long night and a tough shoot (shooting in the water is technically quite challenging, etc) and I think everyone there was emotionally and physically spent by the end — Gwen and Nikolaj most of all, of course. But I couldn’t have been more thrilled with the result – I think it’s one of the landmark scenes of the show (as it is in the books).

Azad: Many speculated that the epilogue to ASoS would close out season 3, but that clearly wasn’t the case. Just curious to know if it was considered? Perhaps filmed and cut, saved for season 4?

Bryan: It wasn’t filmed. Afraid I can’t comment on storylines/characters that may or may not appear in future seasons.

Tim: Hey Bryan! In season 3, there seemed to be more episodes that focused on a smaller number of storylines, really developing those ones and giving them room to breathe – for example episodes 308 and 309. Was this a conscious decision and might this be a trend that could continue going forward?

Bryan: Yeah, it was a conscious choice and I think it’s safe to say you’ll see some more of those kinds of episodes going forward, but not necessarily every week. In the end, it’s dictated by the needs of the story. But I think there’s definitely less pressure than perhaps there was in Seasons One and Two to cram every major character and subplot into every episode.

Zish: Why has Daenerys STILL not named her dragons? Are they just going to stay unnamed?

Bryan: They’re named Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion on the show; that’s how they’re noted in the scripts. Hasn’t come up in dialogue yet, but they have their names.

TonyGen: How do you (and D&D) feel about the challenges of adapting AFFC/ADWD? While I love those books. It presents a lot of challenges as it introduces an assortment of new characters who take center stage in AFFC and some of the more established characters in the show are completely absent. In addition there are a lot less obvious plot climaxes. I feel it is must be a daunting and exciting challenge as it will really allow/force you guys to craft your own narrative in a way the first three books didn’t.

Bryan: Yes, it’s a tremendous challenge. Books four and five are much tougher to adapt for a variety of reasons, chief among them the staggering amount of new plot lines, characters and locations. There are dozens and dozens of major characters introduced in FfC and DwD; far too many for one TV series to contain. So a lot of hard choices will have to be made. The universe of the show will have to be different from the universe of the books in a lot of ways; it’s unavoidable. But it’ll be an exciting challenge going forward.

purplejilly: Is there anything you ever read in the comments from the fans here at WiC.net that actually made you reconsider or change anything in an episode?

Bryan: With all due respect, no. Not that I have the power to do that anyway, as it’s not my show. But decisions are made for a reason and we stand by them.

Colin: As a huge fan of the show and books, the character I feel has suffered the most in adaptation is Stannis. Stannis of the books doesn’t strike me as an actual believer of The Lord of Light, using Mel as more a means to an end, and he certainly isn’t in love/obssessed with her like he seems to be on the show. Stannis on the show comes across more as a villain, and it’s harder to understand why Davos would remain so loyal to him. I certainly don’t see Stannis of the books throwing Davos in the dungeons. Was there an active decision to remove Stannis’ more likeable qualities to make him seem more like a villain on the show?

Bryan: Hm… well, okay, I’ll tackle these one by one.

1) “Stannis of the books doesn’t strike me as an actual believer of The Lord of Light”

I think show Stannis’ faith in the Lord of Light is an evolving thing – not black or white . I frankly don’t think that makes the character “suffer” in comparison to the book version but gives Stephen Dillane an interesting arc to play.

2) “he certainly isn’t in love/obsessed with her like he seems to be on the show.”

I’m not sure how you define “in love” but I would never say our Stannis is ‘in love’ with her either. Obsessed — well, there are plenty of clues in the books that Melisandre has an unnatural hold on him, particularly after the events of the Blackwater. We drew on those clues when crafting his Season 3 “addicted to/ withdrawal from Melisandre” arc. In any case, if you think book Stannis ain’t sleeping with Melisandre… well, you’re wrong!

3) ” Stannis on the show comes across more as a villain, and it’s harder to understand why Davos would remain so loyal to him.”

The Stannis of the books does plenty of unsavory things that might make one question Davos’ loyalty… but putting that aside for a moment, history is full of examples of good men following flawed leaders. Davos sees the good in Stannis, owes him a huge debt, believes he’s being pulled down a dangerous path by Melisandre, and is working hard to help him. That seems consistent with the book version, even if some details are different.

4) “I certainly don’t see Stannis of the books throwing Davos in the dungeons.”

You mean the Stannis of the books that chops off Davos’ fingers for smuggling, sanctions the ritual sacrifice of several people (and nearly sacrifices a child) and threatens Davos with execution? You don’t see him throwing Davos in a dungeon? Sure, he doesn’t do it in the book, but that’s because Melisandre sees Davos planning to kill her in the flames and does it herself. On the show, Davos openly tries to kill Melisandre in front of Stannis — so I don’t think it’s a stretch to think he would throw him in prison. And let’s not forget that Stannis, feeling guilty, releases Davos later in the season…

5) “Was there an active decision to remove Stannis’ more likeable qualities to make him seem more like a villain on the show?”

I personally don’t view characters in terms of whether or not they’re “likable”. We put them into (hopefully) interesting and dramatic situations, force them to make hard choices, watch them fail, watch them succeed, watch them make terrible mistakes, watch them learn from those mistakes (or not, in some cases). That’s drama. And you have to watch characters stumble if you want their triumphs to have any weight (season 2 Dany vs. season 3 Dany comes to mind).

But, look, in the end you and I might just view Stannis differently. I don’t think he’s a “villain” but he is a decidedly “grey” character, in the books and in the show. He ain’t Ned Stark.

FaBio: I would like to know your stance on the color indigo, please.

Bryan: Indigo? Uh… I don’t have an opinion about indigo. It’s fine, I guess? I mean, I don’t think I’d paint my house that color…


219 Comments

  1. Grijnwaald
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Hodor

    I see the indigo debate has wormed it’s way in! It’s quite funny really.

  2. Mary
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    love the last sentence from Bryan Cogman

    And you have to watch characters stumble if you want their triumphs to have any weight

  3. azad injejikian
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Yay! Got my Q answered :)

  4. spacechampion
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Jennie McCathy says she’s an Indigo. And that’s responsible for her anti-vaccination nonsense. So FAB, your war against Indigo has a nobler but hidden purpose. I salute you!

  5. TonyGen
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Feels very cool to have my question answered and I liked the response. Very honest and direct.

  6. Yago
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    lmfao, indigo….

  7. Izzy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Great stuff. Don’t agree with the book-reader complaints about Stannis. He draws a sword on Davos in the books and burns folk left, right, and centre without any debate or pity.

    There weren’t any better questions in the bag than the last one about indigo?

  8. Selmy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Even Bryan Cogman can’t escape the great Stannis debate.

  9. Fire And Blood
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Complete bullshit. Cogman offering tepid support for the one color that clearly does not deserve to be part of the seven-color spectrum.

    Done with that man! Done!!

  10. gisizzlah
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    i love that Bryan…. he gets it…

    PS He needs a writing emmy nom…

  11. kroe
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    As a Stannis “fan” im embarrassed by the questions considering Stannis. Show Stannis is fine

  12. Fire And Blood
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    (Show Stannis is fantastic. ‘Nuff said.)

  13. Grijnwaald
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood:
    Complete bullshit. Cogman offering tepid support for the one color that clearly does not deserve to be part of the seven-color spectrum.

    Done with that man! Done!!

    Lol. Who else have you asked? Any cast members?

  14. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    With all due respect, I think the tv series interpretation of Stannis has been somewhat off the mark. Not because it introduces new bad qualities but because it forgets his good qualities.

    For example, take Stannis’s motivation for heading to the Wall in the book. He does it because he knows that he has been pushing his rights as King where he should really be looking after his responsibilities as King. That is a pivotal moment of honor from Stannis and it was taken away from him in the final episode ‘Mhysa’. Instead it is Melisandre who is running the show and it is Stannis who is made to look selfish. He is seen as a desperate man aiming for self preservation, rather than as an honorable man defending the realm. The reality of the situation in the books was that both these aspects were in play. But in the tv show the former has been emphasized and the latter completely forgotten.

    That said, ‘Kissed by Fire’ was an excellent episode for Stannis and Dillane’s portrayal of the character is also excellent in my opinion. Season 3 was great but I felt that Mhysa was a weak episode to end on, not just for Stannis but also because I would have enjoyed a different epilogue.

    Anyway, thanks Bryan for taking the time to answer.

  15. TonyGen
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    I respect everyone has their opinion but I never got all the complaints about Show-Stannis either. To be completely honest I am more invested in Stannis in the show than I was at this point in the books. He didn’t really grow on me til later books.

  16. Selmy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    Fire And Blood,

    I read all of ASOIAF through and didn’t care much for Stannis. After watching season 2 and seeing show Stannis (and particularly Dillane’s brilliant performance) I began to see him in a different light. I have since re-read all of the books and Stannis became one of my favorite characters.
    Show Stannis is brilliant.

  17. Kyrion
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    AFFC/ADWD storylines cut-

    Aeron Greyjoy(already seen someone like him in season 2, but doubt well see him again)
    Jon Connington(well see him, but he wont have a storyline)
    Victarion Greyjoy(we might get Euron combined with him, and have him show up in Mereen only, no storyline)
    Quentyn Martell(well see his beggining/end only if atall)
    Aero Hotah(Darkstar storyline might be shown if it is REALLY improtant and revovles around Lightbringer, but otherwise cut)

    It sucks but yeah, we gain too many characters and lost only like 4 major characters so some have to get cut :(

  18. Duncan
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Hurrah – my question was answered. Thanks for your response, Bryan, and for participating in this Q&A.

    Interesting comment:

    There are dozens and dozens of major characters introduced in FfC and DwD; far too many for one TV series to contain. So a lot of hard choices will have to be made.The universe of the show will have to be different from the universe of the books in a lot of ways; it’s unavoidable.

    Let the speculation begin…

  19. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    Stannis is shifting his pursuit of the Iron Throne by leaving to go and fight the true looming danger. How is he not fulfilling his duty as “Protector of the Realm”? The great quote you mention doesn’t happen until a conversation with Jon at the top of the Wall. It is still entirely possible that this conversation will still happen.

  20. Lollius Palicanus
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Kyrion,

    I agree, though I do hope Victarion won’t be cut. I’m especially interested in how they will pull off introducing ‘young Griff’, without it being a major ass pull. But that’s still some time in the future.

  21. WompWomp
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    I try not to have an inner backseat director, but man, not having Beric’s kiss of life end S3 still hits me as a HUGE missed opportunity. The timing would have been right by the books and that would have been a helluva cliffhanger for everyone. By many accounts, Dany’s finale scene dampened some of the well-earned high from the Red Wedding.

  22. Lex
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Show Stannis is one of my favourite characters. I never understood all the complaints. While he may do things a bit differently at times, IMO he is absolutely NOT acting out of character. The claims that Cogman “ruined Stannis” are ridiculous.

    I also enjoyed the Theon story arc, although the scenes could have been a bit shorter. Maybe there was one too many, I don’t know. But I’m a big Theon fan, and have grown to really enjoy Iwan Rheon’s portrayal of Ramsay. I hate to say it, but he brings some dark humor to the role and actually makes Ramsay kind of funny in a sick, twisted, completely insane way.

  23. queenofthorns
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    HAhaha I’m a Stannis fan but the rest of his fans just make me cringe. This man loves him some Red Woman action! He just doesn’t talk about it! He is ambitious for personal reasons (jealousy and ambition), not only because “the throne is his by rights”. He totally is starting to believe he is AA and that the LoL is real (let’s be honest he thought that the LoL’s power was real since aCoK). He listens to Melisandre and Davos because they are both useful to him, and he has affection for them both (and enough of this “I love Stannis except Melisandre” BS. Stannis isn’t Stannis without both of their influence). He’s sometimes a bit hypocritical, like all humans.

    Bottom line. Stannis is NOT A JUSTICE ROBOT! He’s a HUMAN like all the other characters. With emotions. And flaws. Thanks to Bryan for sticking by that instead of the ridiculous whitewashed boring fanboy interpretation.

    P.S. <3<3<3 Stephen Dillane, OMG.

  24. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    I concur with Bryan on Stannis and disagree fiercely on the color indigo. Ergo as an internet dweller I must now commence with disliking him as an individual.

    This whole arrangement’s bollocks.

  25. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    I, uh… I actually really enjoy the final scene of Season Three. I am slowly coming to realize I may be in the minority on that one though.

  26. Redqueen
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm, never thought much about Stannis, didn’t like him in the books and don’t like him on the show but his character is portrayed brilliantly.

  27. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    But Stannis tells Jon that he headed towards the Wall because he realized that he was responsible for protecting the realm (or words to that effect). If he does the same thing in Season 4 we will know he is a liar because we know it is actually Melisandre who made him choose that decision.

    The problem with the scene in ‘Mhysa’ is that it undermines Stannis’s motivations, as explained to Jon at the end of book 3. Instead of being an honorable man he is now a mendacious manipulator.

  28. charles
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    I’m not liking what he had to said about adapting AFFC/ADDWD. Difficult choices indeed.

  29. Lex
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Jeff O’Connor:
    I, uh… I actually really enjoy the final scene of Season Three. I am slowly coming to realize I may be in the minority on that one though.

    I’m with you. It wasn’t especially shocking, epic, or mindblowing… but it was uplifting and kind of awesome. Especially the aerial shot of Dany’s dragons, freed followers, and giant army. People were too hard on the finale, IMO.

  30. Stannis
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    As a huge Stannis fan the thing that gets to me most is his lack dry humour and how he seems to follow Melisandre. Most people say Stannis is manipulated by Melisandre but I see it as Stannis uses Melisandre to get what he needs. Stannis in the show also lacks warmth for Davos and seemingly follows Melisandre blindly I’m pretty sure Stannis in the books is convinced by Davos to go to the wall and not Melisandre. He even says something along the lines of I should’ve been winning the Kingdom by saving which is something I doubt show Stannis will say.

  31. Ragman's Harbor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Have been waiting a long time for that post and I agree with Izzy, I’m sure there were other great questions other than indigo, we have so many rare occasions to get direct answers from Bryan. We shouldn’t waste them. And thank you Bryan for answering. If by any chance you see my comment could you answer this: what episodes are you writing????? Its not really a spoiler, is it? Pretty please?

  32. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Stannis:
    As a huge Stannis fan the thing that gets to me most is his lack dry humour and how he seems to follow Melisandre. Most people say Stannis is manipulated by Melisandre but I see it as Stannis uses Melisandre to get what he needs. Stannis in the show also lacks warmth for Davos and seemingly follows Melisandre blindly I’m pretty sure Stannis in the books is convinced by Davos to go to the wall and not Melisandre. He even says something along the lines of I should’ve been winning the Kingdom by saving which is something I doubt show Stannis will say.

    This. As I’ve been saying, they have taken away Stannis’s agency for one of his most pivotal and honorable acts and given it over to Melisandre.

    He’s now acting based on prophecy instead of honor.

  33. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    I am a reader, but to be frank, I skipped a majority of material in the books that dealt with characters that weren’t really part of the overall narrative. I am enjoying the show and it’s changes, just as long as the long term narrative is similar.

    Thanks Bryan!!!

  34. Butterbumps
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    I’m certainly over any negativity towards the last scene of S3 a long time ago. In fact, I don’t even remember how I felt back then. That scene was fine. The people who’ll marathon-watch the whole series 20 years from now, they won’t even flinch.

  35. Winter Is Coming
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Izzy:
    There weren’t any better questions in the bag than the last one about indigo?

    It’s a running joke on the site to ask about indigo. We’ve asked Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Kit Harington and others, so it’s only fair Bryan gets a chance to weigh in on the indigo debate!

  36. Brian
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    No one asked him about them turning Brienne into a misogynist? (“You sound like a bloody woman.”)

  37. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    Brian,

    I liked that comment. It had a nice sense of irony to it, which I’m sure Brienne was quite aware of.

  38. queenofthorns
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Stannis
    I’m pretty sure Stannis in the books is convinced by Davos to go to the wall and not Melisandre. He even says something along the lines of I should’ve been winning the Kingdom by saving which is something I doubt show Stannis will say.

    Family, Duty, Hodor: This. As I’ve been saying, they have taken away Stannis’s agency for one of his most pivotal and honorable acts and given it over to Melisandre.

    He’s now acting based on prophecy instead of honor.

    Stannis fans have this bizarre tendency to believe that when Stannis follows Melisandre’s advice he is her “puppet” but when he follows Davos’ advice, he’s acting of his own free will when in reality, he listens to them both and then decides what to do in each situation. Sometimes he follows Mel and sometimes Davos.

    In this case, Davos and Melisandre AGREE on what Stannis’ next move would be. Davos says Stannis needs to listen because the watch needs his help. Melisandre concurs that the LoL would have it be so. His two advisers AGREE and he does what they say. I’m having a really hard time understanding how this is “removing his agency”. He’s still in charge, he’s just showing he’s not an idiot and can listen to council. Sheesh.

  39. Matt
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    They’ll definitely cut the Iron Islands subplot (Yara and Stannis are both already heading North). No Victarion and no Aeron. Euron can be mentioned as having seized the Seastone Chair following Balon’s death, but that’d be it.
    The Battle of Meereen can be influenced by PLENTY other outside factors. The concept of Yara being at the Wall as Stannis’ hostage sounds pretty cool to me too. Maybe he initiates a marriage pact there between her and one of his bannermen.

    I can see them cutting Brienne’s journey too and instead just continuing to keep her as a recurring character – a plot device for Jaime. The two of them can encounter Lady Stoneheart together.

  40. GeekFurious
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    I am fine with the TV version of Stannis. As I’ve said before, they are writing a TV show for the masses not books for a specific type of reader.

  41. queenofthorns
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor: we know it is actually Melisandre who made him choose that decision.

    LOL “made him”? Listening to Melisandre’s advice (IN ADDITION TO DAVOS’) = SHE MADE HIM DO IT WAHH WAHHH

    You guys are just too much…

  42. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    No matter who convinced him, he still agreed to do the right thing. What I don’t get is everyone’s lack of understanding Melisandre’s influence on Stannis in the books. She is his main adviser, not Davos. Do you really think she disagreed with the decision to head North to the Wall? I guess I feel that some people failed to read between the lines regarding Stannis and Mel’s relationship. She’s a much bigger influence on him then some believe. She isn’t even with him on his trek to Winterfell and yet he is still ordering people burned as sacrifices left and right.

  43. Rafael
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    Spoilers

  44. queenofthorns
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: Do you really think she disagreed with the decision to head North to the Wall?

    Exactly! It’s pretty clear she was on board. The chapter just cut it off before we could see anyone’s reaction, including Stannis’. Actually, I think we even know from melisandre’s PoV that she agreed with the decision at least in hindsight, do we not?

  45. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns,

    No. In ‘Mhysa’, Stannis keeps on changing his mind to whatever Melisandre says. He doesn’t really listen to Davos about protecting the realm until Melisandre uses the letter to prophecy that he MUST go up North. And he was just about to kill Davos until Melisandre tells him he can’t kill Davos, And again he listens to her yet again!

    He’s Melisandres bitch in the tv show and follows everything based on her prophecies. In the books however, Stannis tells Jon that he made the decision himself, essentially for honorable reasons. So either Stannis is a huge liar in the books or he’s been changed significantly in the tv series.

  46. Cary Storm
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Lex: I’m with you. It wasn’t especially shocking, epic, or mindblowing… but it was uplifting and kind of awesome. Especially the aerial shot of Dany’s dragons, freed followers, and giant army. People were too hard on the finale, IMO.

    People complained about the stark contrast. Primarily about the difference in the race of the savior vs. the saved. I found the contrast to be suitably discomforting. It was quite off-putting to see the contrast between the clean-light skinned Dany savior and the dusty, dirty, darker skinned slaves. And the discomfort worked for me. Because it said, “oh how wonderful this must be” while offering an undercurrent of “wait a second, this is kind of creepy actually” and set me up for the problems that are inevitably going to come.

  47. Maxwell James
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    I just want to hear that we’ll get Stannis the Grammar Nazi back again.

  48. ACatLover
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Brian:
    No one asked him about them turning Brienne into a misogynist?(“You sound like a bloody woman.”)

    You’re taking the word “misogynist” way out of context. Her line is somewhat sexist according to modern understanding of gender, but it’s not “misogyny” by any stretch of the imagination. It’s barely even objectionable. People thought like that before the Enlightenment, you know.

  49. Arkash
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Hope you’ll make a round two of questions with some others that has been suggested when you called for them ! =D

  50. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Not at all. I just think that they have portrayed Stannis in a rather unfair way. Sure, Melisandre wanted him to go North, but I believe Stannis too believed that going North was his duty and responsibility. The evidence is there in the text and this dutiful side to Stannis is an important part of his character.

    Btw, I am certainly no Stannis fanboy. I think he would make a poor King. (Although given the other appalling options he could be the best of the lot!)

  51. mariamb
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    So a lot of hard choices will have to be made.

    Duncan:
    Let the speculation begin…

    My initial thoughts: Aeron is gone. Perhaps Euron and Victarion can be combined. Quentyn can probably be cut although his BBQ scene would make great TV. Hotah is a background character and the Sand Snakes are reduced from 8 to 2 or 3. Young Griff and Jon Connington remain but not the group of support staff on the pole boat. Tyrion and Sam’s long boring travels can be significantly reduced. There are lots of less important characters in KL (Taena for example), the Iron Islands (Rodrik Harlaw) and Meereen that can disappear without the story suffering.

  52. Phil
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t even realize Dany hadn’t named her dragons on the show!!!!

  53. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    azad injejikian,
    Just wanted to point out that I am glad the Cogman responded that the S3 “ending” desired by many book fans was never considered by the showrunners. Fine, I’ll accept that. However, I would like to point out that you asked the question incorrectly regarding our S3 ending speculation. What many of the book fans wanted/speculated was not the epilogue of ASoS but the actual resurrection of Lady SH via Nymeria’s discovery and the R’hllor magic of BwB’s Thoros and Beric, which is only passively addressed in the books via a dream sequence and via subsequent POV discussion.. That “desired” scene is not the epilogue of ASoS (which deals with post-resurrection Lady SH hanging some Freys).

  54. h34
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    I don’t understand why the Theon scenes were so hard to watch. Are they worse than the Tickler’s scenes? Are they worse than Joffrey’s torture scenes? If you think so, make the argument. The show’s error was to let the viewers think the torture was just more gratuitous violence, when in fact the torture was a deliberate attempt by Ramsey to destroy Theon and turn him into Reek.

  55. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I am a Stannis fanboy. Definately one of my 5 favorite characters. I support his claim to the throne and feel he is much more suited for the role than Daenerys,Tommen, and “Aegon”. The only other possibility that would make me switch allegiance is Jon, but there is no reason to consider him a contender at this point..

  56. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    He would have never answered that question either. He says so in his response. He will not comment on future characters that may or may not appear in the show.

  57. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    As I stated, I accepted his answer. I am still hoping for the LSH resurrection to kick off S4 though! I believe it is a topic that the show could improve upon from the books (as yet written). The look of Cat at the end of the Red Wedding as she got her throat slit is just begging for a vengeful follow-up .

  58. kurozukin
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    queenofthorns,

    No. In ‘Mhysa’, Stannis keeps on changing his mind to whatever Melisandre says. He doesn’t really listen to Davos about protecting the realm until Melisandre uses the letter to prophecy that he MUST go up North.

    What are you basing that on? Stannis was the one who stopped the guards from taking Davos away and asked him what he meant. Stannis was interested in reading the letter even as Mel was protesting.

    And he was just about to kill Davos until Melisandre tells him he can’t kill Davos, And again he listens to her yet again!

    So… he should have ignored Melisandre and killed Davos anyway? Yeah that’ll show all those TV viewers what an admirable guy Stannis is!

    He’s Melisandres bitch in the tv show and follows everything based on her prophecies.

    Why? Because he does not immediately leap to a huge game-changing decision without consulting one of his main advisors who happens to be standing right there and happens to be able to see the freaking future?

    In the books however, Stannis tells Jon that he made the decision himself, essentially for honorable reasons.

    No, in the books he tells Jon that he would never have come to the Wall if it wasn’t for Davos. Is he Davos’s bitch then? And people can have both honorable and self-serving reasons; it’s not mutually exclusive. Stannis wants to save the kingdom AND win the throne. He saves the Night’s Watch AND makes demands of them and expects them to support him.

  59. Stannis
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Yes but the thing is Stannis is sort of like “oh ok the flames say thats the right thing I will do it.” He needed Melisandres blessing to do it instead of thinking that Davos was right in what he needed to do. As family duty honor pointed out, he is doing it out of prophecy as opposed to doing it for the realm, which really isn’t how Stannis went about it in the book. I think regardless of what Melisandre had to say on the situation I think he would’ve gone anyway. Had Stannis read the letter first who knows what he would’ve done. I like to think he would make the decision himself but who knows.
    The greatest thing about Stannis is his willingness to listen to everyone regardless of where they came from. Show Stannis seems to only listen to the flames. I just don’t feel as if show Stannis has all the same complexities he has in the book, most non-readers I know say he comes off as a straight up villain. More scenes like his ones with Shireen and Selyse would help

  60. moophasa
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Of all the characters to complain about, why Stannis? The show captures the abrasive nature of the character well IMO. To be honest there’s nothing wrong with any of the characters – just that some of the plots have had to be reduced. And that’s a practical issue that can’t be helped. I’d rather have a brilliant, popular TV series that differs from the books in places than have a cumbersome show that gets cancelled because it sticks too dogmatically to parts of the book that are excellent on paper but make bad TV.

  61. Izzy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: It’s a running joke on the site to ask about indigo. We’ve asked Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Kit Harington and others, so it’s only fair Bryan gets a chance to weigh in on the indigo debate!

    Ah, I see. I missed it. Well, let it continue :P Any plans for more Cogman Q&A’s? Love the guy’s insight.

  62. queenofthorns
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Stannis: He needed Melisandres blessing to do it instead of thinking that Davos was right in what he needed to do.

    Family, Duty, Hodor: No. In ‘Mhysa’, Stannis keeps on changing his mind to whatever Melisandre says. He doesn’t really listen to Davos about protecting the realm until Melisandre uses the letter to prophecy that he MUST go up North. And he was just about to kill Davos until Melisandre tells him he can’t kill Davos, And again he listens to her yet again!

    I still don’t understand what is so awful and character destroying about Stannis seeking the advice of both of his advisers on an important tactical and military decision? Both Davos and Melisandre are trying to convince Stannis, and he listens to them both.

    He does this all the time in the books. Practically every damn scene in the books is Stannis on the tipping point between the two of them. What’s the difference that you guys are so worked up about (hint: there isn’t any)?

    I’ll also remind you both that in this particular case we do not know how Stannis reacts in this scene in t he books because we aren’t shown it. It could have happened the same bloody way for all we know.

    Maybe you just think he is weak for listening to a (powerful and intelligent) woman from time to time.

  63. the other guy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Show Stannis is awesome.

    WompWomp:
    I try not to have an inner backseat director, but man, not having Beric’s kiss of life end S3 still hits me as a HUGE missed opportunity. The timing would have been right by the books and that would have been a helluva cliffhanger for everyone. By many accounts, Dany’s finale scene dampened some of the well-earned high from the Red Wedding.

    100% agree on this. GoT writers, I’m begging you : don’t cut LS !

  64. Veltigar
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    TonyGen:
    I respect everyone has their opinion but I never got all the complaints about Show-Stannis either.To be completely honest I am more invested in Stannis in the show than I was at this point in the books.He didn’t really grow on me til later books.

    I 100% agree. Stannis is probably my favorite or second favorite character in the series, but at this point in the novels I didn’t really care for him. At this point in the narrative I care more about show Stannis thanks to “Kissed by Fire” (best episode of the season imo).
    Sure, Mhysa’s Stannis scenes weren’t perfect but I guess that, just like they chose to prospone Arya’s first kill, we’ll see that side of Stannis later on.

  65. Garlan the Gallant
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Lol at all the people saying entire major characters/plotlines will be cut. Euron will be both Euron and Victarion???? And Quentyn is also going to the block???? And those who are still in are going to only show up at the Battle of Meereen??? Do people *want* D&D to get to TWOW by mid Season 5? All the speculation is already getting ridiculous, and people seem so SURE about their predictions. Especially when these “destined to be cut” characters and events are going to be so critical to TWOW

  66. Nightswatchman nr122
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    I just think that we give to much credit to tv writers. Bryan Cogman’s only job is to cut the books of George Martin into manageable pieces for tv adaptation. Asking him about character developmnet it’s like asking any one of us, we don’t have a say in it, neither does he. Also, it always makes me smile when I watch the shows producers trying to take credit for “everything”. Let’s be honest guys, HBO probably has many producers, who could replace Benioff and Weiss any time, but the books were written by George Martin!!!

  67. Clara
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Ok guys just think how AMAZING and out of the blue Stoneheart will be now (hopefully last scene of next series). When I read that scene I was shocked, partly because I didn’t see it coming at all. I think that having at the end of 3x1o would have not been quite as shocking. I mean its not that long since Beric came back from the dead.

    Well ok it still would have been shocking, but I’m really really looking froward to it now!

  68. Matt
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    COG-MAN! COG-MAN! COG-MAN!
    MOAR EPISODES FOR COG-MAN!!!

  69. Selmy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I love how Stannis is pretty much the most discussed characters of show and books. In book 1/ series 1 we’re told ‘Oh he’s boring, there’s not much to him, he’s a grumpy lobster’. Now look.

  70. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Great job Ser Cogman! Cog-man! Cog-man!

  71. Stannis
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns,

    The point is Stannis on the show seemed convinced by Melisandre not Davos. We will never know but that’s how it comes across. Mel had to look into the flames for him to be convinced.

  72. Colty
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Ok in regards to Lady Stoneheart…while I think it would have been cool to have S3 end with her, think about this possible scenario for S4: Mysterious reports of Freys and Lannisters being hanged throughout the season, talk of Beric’s death and a mysterious new leader known as Lady Stoneheart, etc. Then at the end the reveal of LS…ya know, the way it happened in the books. Way better set up and payoff rather than ‘oh shit robb and catelyn are dead…wait wtf?’ in such short succession. Gives the unsullied time to really think she’s dead before the reveal.

  73. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Very glad the debate of Stannis Baratheon’s principles and values are finally
    taking place, from the head writer’s perspective, even if the replies from
    questions 2, 3, & 5 leave me disappointed. Mr Cogman makes valid
    points during his reply, but narrowly focuses on ” likable vs unlikable ”
    qualities. The truth is, none of that is truly relevant. I respect Stannis,
    for all his dictates at being a harsh taskmaster, a brooding ex- high official.
    He and I would never be friends. I admire certain aspects of his reasoning
    his judge of character ( ie. Davos ), his tenacity and sense of obligation
    that propels him , and stoic strengths which often avoid a deranged emotional
    response. He is a cold fish, sure. He lacks the Alpha Male characteristics of
    Tywin Lannister, however Stannis remains chastised for his goals while Tywin
    is applauded . BTW, I give props to Tywin -the- CEO, for running a successful
    campaign so far, but it sort of feels like shaking hands with the devil himself.

    While book Stannis presents himself as principled and understand well the
    value of reason, he could easily be empathized towards, for his childhood
    upbringing and the steadfastness to duty for his family.

    GRRM’s characters are not one dimensional, and often reflect the layers that
    make up the human existence. Whatever attributes or virtues this spells out
    in the end, I am thus far disappointed in the lack of dynamic for several onscreen
    main characters. The present time has still only come into being a short time ago,
    so I’ll not dawdle on these details forever, there is plenty of time ( episodes ) left
    to balance things out ( if the production chooses to ).

  74. The Dragon Demands
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    I asked a lot of specific questions which would be useful for updating the Game of Thrones Wiki.

    Will there be another round of Q&A or do I have to wait another few weeks and submit them from scratch all over again?

  75. Colty
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Nightswatchman nr122: Bryan Cogman’s only job is to cut the books of George Martin into manageable pieces for tv adaptation.

    Yeah I mean it’s super easy right? Because adapting a huge complex novel for an entirely different medium should theoretically be a piece of cake. I mean, WTF Bryan and D&D? Don’t you know that an adaptation is only good if you literally just copy & paste from novel to script? They definitely don’t deserve credit for anything we’ve seen, cause George R.R. Martin already wrote it.

    http://s4.hubimg.com/u/4394263_f520.jpg

  76. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Really enjoyed Collin and Purple Jilly’s question to Bryan. Of all the likely hundreds
    of questions to submit to Bryan Cogman, why would WiC allow one that asks
    ” why haven’t the dragons been named by Danerys’ (?) Duh……. even after
    Danerys refers to Drogon by name ? I don’t remember her saying the other
    dragons names during scenes though.

  77. ShadowStalker
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    As far as what characters might get cut out of AFFC/ADWD…

    I never understood why everyone immediately assumes Quentyn will be cut. I understand that a LARGE portion of his story can be. Everything leading up to his meeting with Dany is definitely on the chopping block… but couldn’t the TV show just have him arrive and meet her? I mean if they keep the Arianne/Doran arc in, there is no reason to completely cut Quentyn out of the story. He plays a pretty good role in the aftermath of Dany’s absense from Meereen… one that fits in really well.

  78. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    kurozukin,

    No, in the books, Stannis didn’t decide not to kill Davos because Melisandre told him not to. He made the decision himself. It baffles me how some of you guys don’t see this as a big difference.

    And in reply to him listening to his advisers etc: my point is that in Mhysa, as soon as Melisandre tells him what to do, he changes his mind instantly! So naturally most people will say that his justification for his action was Melisandre’s prophecy, not his sense of honor (which is almost non-existent in the tv series).

  79. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    With all due respect, I think the tv series interpretation of Stannis has been somewhat off the mark. Not because it introduces new bad qualities but because it forgets his good qualities.

    For example, take Stannis’s motivation for heading to the Wall in the book. He does it because he knows that he has been pushing his rights as King where he should really be looking after his responsibilities as King. That is a pivotal moment of honor from Stannis and it was taken away from him in the final episode ‘Mhysa’. Instead it is Melisandre who is running the show and it is Stannis who is made to look selfish. He is seen as a desperate man aiming for self preservation, rather than as an honorable man defending the realm. The reality of the situation in the books was that both these aspects were in play. But in the tv show the former has been emphasized and the latter completely forgotten.

    That said, ‘Kissed by Fire’ was an excellent episode for Stannis and Dillane’s portrayal of the character is also excellent in my opinion. Season 3 was great but I felt that Mhysa was a weak episode to end on, not just for Stannis but also because I would have enjoyed a different epilogue.

    Anyway, thanks Bryan for taking the time to answer.

    Weel stated ser !

  80. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    Stannis is shifting his pursuit of the Iron Throne by leaving to go and fight the true looming danger. How is he notfulfilling his duty as “Protector of the Realm”? The great quote you mention doesn’t happen until a conversation with Jon at the top of the Wall. It is still entirely possible that this conversation will still happen.

    This is my hope too.

  81. Noga
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Can someone kindly explain the indigo thing to me? I run across it a lot, but have no idea what it’s about.

  82. ShadowStalker
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Noga,

    It is stated what it is all about multiple times in the comments here…. scroll up and find out.

  83. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    An astute answer, this scene left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

  84. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I love Stannis, but his sense of honor is not one of his main characteristics, IMO. He has a sense of duty and justice, but I don’t think he is driven at all by honor.

  85. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Izzy,

    I missed that one too, actually I’m still unclear of the concept ( I’m guessing it
    has nothing to do with Ghiscari custom or Daario’s hair or beard ).
    Anyways, having Mr Cogman share his insights on various queries is pretty
    awesome.

  86. Thompsjt1
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Bryan is just incredible writer and I really appreciate him taking the time out of his day to answer these. Thanks so much Bryan!!

  87. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Fair point; duty and justice would have been better words to use (and I should know, given my name!) . But the meanings often overlap and so my general point remains the same.

    Explaining Stannis is complicated though. People who are disappointed with tv stannis in general are more disappointed with the motivation behind his actions as opposed to his actions themselves. And so it can be challenging showing why such subtle differences are actually fundamentally important to us.

    @Wildseed: Thanks.

  88. CT Wahoo
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    They may be able to get by with combining Euron and Victarion, but the arrival of the Iron Fleet at Meereen is too important, IMHO, to do away with both of them. I’m fairly certain that it’s Victarion’s ships that will transport Dany and her brood to Westeros.

  89. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    The Dragon Demands,

    Good point, although the next round of queries is likely a TBA for the future, with
    no specific date. Apparently previously submitted questions are not kept, no matter
    how good or truly relevant they were. It’s all about luck, it seems…………

  90. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    I still don’t get why people think they shouldn’t have shown the Theon torture. It wasn’t even much of a deviation from the books. The difference is we experienced it in real time instead of in Theon’s memories. Did people really think he was just going to pop up as “Reek” with no explanation? Did anybody think this show wasn’t going to be disturbing? The very first episode ended with twincest and Bran being tossed out of a window.

    It amuses me that anybody thought D&D were lurking in here to get suggestions from us. Especially since there is never a consensus about anything.

    Even though I completely understand that many things from ADWD/AFFC have to be cut it’s still going to be very sad.

    Stannis is a great character but he isn’t going to be king. He will play a role in Jon (who is not dead) becoming King in the North!

  91. Easteros bunny
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    So you put in a question about the colour indigo but not my question about cheese.

    Mine was far more entertaining.

  92. Al Swearengen
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Show Stannis is fine but his physical relationship with Melisandre is way out of character.

  93. Selmy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Robb was King in the North. Jon will be the King of Winter.
    I don’t think Stannis will be King either (well not the King on the iron throne at least). I think Stannis’ purpose will be to rid the North of the Boltons and Freys and reclaim it for the Starks.

  94. Selmy
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Al Swearengen,

    No its not. This is like Renly not being made explicitly gay in the books but it was obviously hinted at. Trust me, book Stannis is boning Mel. And he loves it.

  95. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Al Swearengen,

    Stannis is fucking Mel in the books. Why else do you think Mel says in her own POV that she has no use for her bed now that Stannis has left? Did you also not think that Renly was gay in the books?

  96. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I love Stannis, but his sense of honor is not one of his main characteristics, IMO. He has a sense of duty and justice, but I don’t think he is driven at all by honor.

    Duty is defined by legal And moral obligation. One may easily argue that these
    terms could be used synonymously , depending on the self motivation ( belief /
    value ) which dictates this action. I used to trip over this as well, with the Tully
    House words ; ” Family, Duty , Honour ” . A just action, thus inspired by one’s
    perception of honour, or societal concept.

  97. sunspear
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    I want to get in on the Stannis debate.

    I definitely feel that Stannis has been hurt in the adaptation, and a bit more than other characters have been.

    I agree with what Stannis said above, and I would also like to add that my major complaint is that they made Stannis way too eager to kill Gendry. In the books, he clearly doesn’t want to, and is willing to write of Robb’s and Balon’s deaths as coincidence until Joffrey dies as well. Plus he gets in his line about torturing and killiing Mel if she’s wrong. And he’s the one who demanded a demonstration of her power, not Davos. ShowStannis was willing to do it after one death.

    Plus, they cut all of his best lines, like “If I showed him the contents of my privy, doubtless he would call that admirable as well”.

  98. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’m fine with Theon’s scenes as well, however I have to chuckle about your
    present beliefs about book Stannis’s end point. I would admit that I have no
    clue, only a few logical assumptions here and there, but no failsafe way to
    predict accurately. We have Mr George RR Martin to thank for that predicament,
    as he repeatedly insists upon yanking the carpet out from under our feet. LMAO.
    Sometimes I laugh, sometimes I weep, sometimes I’m scratching my head.

  99. Al Swearengen
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    I don’t deny there was intercourse I just don’t believe it was a pleasure for Stannis. I have a hard time picturing Stannis from the books passionately shagging Melisandre on top of a table.

  100. sunspear
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    As far as characters to cut from AFFC/ADWD

    Taena and Orton Merrywheater, Tristifer Botley, The Waif, Duck, Haldon, Septa Lemore, Gyles Rosby, the Mad Mouse, Pia, Jaime’s squire, and Areo Hotah all come to mind.

  101. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I’m often wrong but it’s still fun to predict. How else to pass the time before TWOW comes out?

  102. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Color me naive, or in denial, but I preferred that Stannis remained unknowing
    of explicit detail for Renley and Gendry’s execution. The devised plan and
    engineering was solely Melissandre’s doing. However, I am without doubt
    that Stannis suspected or implied knowledge of the plan to carry out the
    dark arts. Full knowledge of these deeds puts him in the irredeemable category.
    Another thing, Mel is seductive and has her reasons for relationship with Stannis,
    but sex was not the primary reason for her conjuring. It was only employed as it
    necessitates . Stannis the -cold fish- Baratheon, would rather grind his teeth and
    brood, than take on a full time mistress. Too soap opera. Fortunately, the inclusion
    of Davos and Shireen onscreen, have added needed distraction from this.
    So too are the exterior creation of a superbly appearing set environment. Sometimes
    I just focus on that, with swelling pride of what the production staff has accomplished.

  103. kurozukin
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    kurozukin,

    No, in the books, Stannis didn’t decide not to kill Davos because Melisandre told him not to. He made the decision himself.

    And how exactly do we know this? The scene where he decides not to kill Davos was never shown in the books.

    And in reply to him listening to his advisers etc: my point is that in Mhysa, as soon as Melisandre tells him what to do, he changes his mind instantly!

    If he changes his mind instantly based on whatever Mel tells him, then why didn’t he just let Gendry be killed the moment they arrived on Dragonstone? Why did he act conflicted? Why did he follow Davos’s advice to put off the sacrifice until they could demonstrate the effect of king’s blood?

    I actually never saw it as him “changing his mind instantly”. More like he already felt inclined to decide a certain way, and Mel’s advice just happened to correspond with his feelings. In the case of killing Davos, he probably didn’t particularly want to go through with it, but felt obligated to, because treason = death and a good act does not wash out the bad etc. etc. Mel’s advice just gave him a good excuse to break his own rules. Maybe you didn’t see it that way; but the point is, I don’t think you can say with any certainty that the TV viewers won’t be able to perceive Stannis’s sense of honor or positive qualities.

  104. jentario
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    charles:
    I’m not liking what he had to said about adapting AFFC/ADDWD. Difficult choices indeed.

    That ship has sailed years ago man. Those books are quite literally unadaptable. We will likely see a lot less characters doing their own thing and a lot less new characters too (such as combining Euron and Victarion and completely removing the Damphair and cutting a bunch of unnecessary Dorne characters and also maybe changing the way some other stories- mainly Sam’s and Brienne’s- work out). It has to be done, and I think that it will actually be better for the show (in an objective point of view) since it will likely fix a lot of the things presented in these books that fans deemed lacking.

  105. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Someone convinced me, a few months back, that Donal Noye and Dalla were
    likely eliminated also.

  106. Dogmayor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Disappointed in the Stannis question. The person didn’t really hold Cogman’s feet to the coals regarding what they’ve done to that character.

  107. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    WildSeed,

    I’m often wrong but it’s still fun to predict.How else to pass the time before TWOW comes out?

    I know, I know, and this may be the first time in my life that I’m willingly
    having a go with speculating. Crack Pot Theories, on the other hand, give
    me a migraine. I don’t believe it BigFoot stories either.

  108. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I saw a theory that Sansa is Littlefinger’s daughter because he somehow drugged and raped her. WTF, WTF, WTF? Just, no!

    I fear that Doanl Noye will be replaced with Grenn and that he will die. He probably isn’t a vital character and he’s big and beefy enough to credibly fight a giant.

  109. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Al Swearengen,

    Stannis is fucking Mel in the books. Why else do you think Mel says in her own POV that she has no use for her bed now that Stannis has left? Did you also not think that Renly was gay in the books?

    Haha, yeah… I remember when some noob asked GRRM at a panel if he was “upset that the TV series had made Renly gay”. To which GRRM said “I thought I made it pretty obvious in the books that he WAS gay.”

    Likewise, even if not explicitly stated, it is heavily implied in Mel’s POV chapter in ADWD that she’s sleeping with Stannis, from the above reference given. It’s also suggested that she might be undead, or possibly a Fire Wight a la Beric, given that she seemingly doesn’t eat or sleep.

    If we’re being totally honest, a lot of the angst among Stannisites is caused by that they have read his stuff in ADWD when he saves Jon and Night’s Watch in the battle, saves Mance from execution, goes in to bat against Ramsay etc. Show Stannis hasn’t had any of that character development yet. But he will.

    Like seriously, did anyone really “root” for Stannis against Tyrion when they read ACoK? It’s not until he starts up north that he becomes a character that we “root” for.

    *(As an Australian, I have a chuckle when Americans use the verb “root” that way. It means something different here. In Australia, you could say that only really Melisandre roots for Stannis, except maybe his wife very occasionally).

  110. outdoorcats
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    SMH at people who think the Iron Islands storyline will be cut, or that Victarion will be merged with Euron. Even Areo Hotah being cut is something I doubt, as the Arianne sample chapter from TWOW suggests he’s going to have his own storyline separate from Doran which should be A) quite exciting and B) probably hugely important to the series.

  111. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    Disappointed in the Stannis question. The person didn’t really hold Cogman’s feet to the coals regarding what they’ve done to that character.

    Because the question was “Can you explain X?” instead of “OMG YOU HATE STANNIS, WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU, YOU MORON???&!!3″?

    They would have received heaps of Stannis questions, all saying essentially the same thing, then picked the most coherent one.

    Later, the incoherent ones can be used to build a shed out back for storing arguments about the RV casting and other such arguments.

  112. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    SMH at people who think the Iron Islands storyline will be cut, or that Victarion will be merged with Euron. Even Areo Hotah being cut is something I doubt, as the Arianne sample chapter from TWOW suggests he’s going to have his own storyline separate from Doran which should be A) quite exciting and B) probably hugely important to the series.

    Not sure I agree about Areo, I think he’s just there as an expository device for Doran.

    Regards the Iron Islands though, I think you’re right. They matter too much to the Meereenese Knot.

    Also, Cogman said in an interview somewhere that he loves the character of either Euron or Victartion (can’t remember which…) and was looking forward to writing for him.

  113. Joshua Taylor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor,

    Cogman was pretty harsh in the response if you ask me. He doesn’t see Stannis in the way some people do.

  114. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Al Swearengen,

    Stannis the fornicator, carrying on with carnal pleasures and lust with a redhead
    mistress………. I can’t. Time to cue in the Who’s ” You better, you bet “, in the
    background.

  115. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    LMAO, about crack pot theories in the universe.
    I’m not lamenting Donal Noye’s absence, but his one armed courageousness, and
    pragmatic talks with Jon. I enjoyed his banter in the same way I afforded
    Delorous Edd’s humor, it was fitting and a good balance, if only in written form.
    Someone else may pick up those attributes, as you pointed out. Edd gets drowned
    out onscreen, amid the frightful happenings closely in the background. Televised
    events can easily distract with much going on.

  116. Kris
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    I do not understand the florid hatred some book fans have of show Stannis. Do I agree with all the characterization? No. As a Mel fan I don’t like the whole ‘addiction” angle…but I understand the reasoning. Show Stannis is far more human than the figure (to this point we get in the books) simply because we see things from his pov. I don’t find show and book Stannis that terribly different.

    Stannis is flesh-and-blood, a human being. If I want a robot I’ll watch Futurama for Bender. If I want to see robots fight monsters I’ll watch Pacific Rim. If I want to watch/read about a man struggling with contradictions and flaws and human qualities fight monsters….I’ll read about and watch and cheer for Stannis Baratheon.

  117. Dogmayor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    You must have broken your knee with that jerk. I like how you automatically project idiocy onto people just because you don’t happen to agree with them. You do this even when you don’t know what their actual feelings on the subject are. Your over the top caricature is more suited to the question that was posed to Cogman than what I would have said. You just have to look at this thread to see all the points that could have been made which really challenge what they’ve done with the character on the show. If all you see is “OMG YOU HATE STANNIS, WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU, YOU MORON???&!!3″, you might want to keep your comments to yourself in the future. You’ll just embarrass yourself.

  118. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Al Swearengen,

    Stannis the fornicator, carrying on with carnal pleasures and lust with a redhead
    mistress……….I can’t. Time to cue in the Who’s ” You better, you bet “, in the
    background.

    Who said anything about lust? It is possible to fornicate out of a feeling of duty… Even if you don’t actually have any real enjoyment in it! Just ask any royals in an arranged marriage to some tactically-valuable-but-unattractive consort… Or Selyse ;)

  119. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Dogmayor:
    Chickenduck,

    You must have broken your knee with that jerk. I like how you automatically project idiocy onto people just because you don’t happen to agree with them. You do this even when you don’t know what their actual feelings on the subject are. Your over the top caricature is more suited to the question that was posed to Cogman than what I would have said. You just have to look at this thread to see all the points that could have been made which really challenge what they’ve done with the character on the show. If all you see is “OMG YOU HATE STANNIS, WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU, YOU MORON???&!!3″, you might want to keep your comments to yourself in the future. You’ll just embarrass yourself.

    How about you attack what Cogman actually said then?

    Seriously, there is some intelligent debate about Stannis, but there is a lot of just whining.

    I posted my thoughts, in detail, above.

    You did not – you just said the question was soft.

  120. Endless Giraffe
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    How about this: (my entry in the most crackpot theory ever contest)

    Robb Stark is the bastard son of Roose Bolton.

    1. At the same time as Robert’s Rebellion Began, Eddard Stark married Catelyn Tully. Surrounded by bannermen at Riverrun, he wedded and bedded her before marching off to war. Among this host of bannermen South with him was Roose Bolton. After the wedding Ned immediately left to begin fighting.
    2. Roose Bolton is a known rapist, who practiced the custom of the “First Night” in the past. First Night dictates a Lord has access to his subject’s wife, and many past Boltons believed they should be the lords of the north, held over the Starks. As his actions later in the series suggest, Roose holds strongly to the belief. He is also shown to have a sick sense of humor at times.
    3. I am suggesting that just after Ned Stark left to fight in Robert’s Rebellion, Roose Bolton, as a sick joke, decided to show is dominance over the Starks by forcibly bedding Catelyn. Making Robb his son.

    Now, allow us to skip forward to when Robb Calls his Banners and Catelyn Meets him at Moat Cailin:

    Catelyn is terrified of Roose Bolton.

    1. When she first arrives, Roose Bolton is with Robb, but she insists he should leave in order to be alone with her son. Her real reason is fear.
    2. Again, initially Robb doesn’t want to send Bolton away (indication of a father/son connection? I think so) but an urgent cat convinced him he must do so, sending him into a dangerous attack against Tywin Lannister. She hopes Roose Bolton will die.
    3. For the rest of the war he is kept at a distance by cat, until the Red Wedding.

    The Red Wedding Itself:

    Roose Bolton Knows the war is lost (for now).

    1. With a heavy heart, Roose realizes his war to make his son, Robb Bolton the King in the North, is lost. He begins plotting to take down the houses loyal to the Starks with Tywin Lannister. Taking after his father, who is largely controlled by love (Roose leaches himself to control these feelings), Robb has married outside of his betrothal. Frey is ready to exact vengeance, but Roose won’t allow another of his Children (after Domeric) to die so easily.
    2. He asks Tywin to legitimize his bastard. How do we know which bastard? We Don’t.
    3. Robb is in on the plot. He tells his Father and Mother they are about to go home. His mother may not come, but this was no lie.
    4. Just before the wedding, Roose switches Robb out with an imposter.
    Then it hits the fan.

    1. During the Wedding Cat is seated away from her son. This is so she cannot see that the boy at the wedding isn’t her son.
    2. Roose sits next to her to make sure she doesn’t notice.
    3. Lord Bolton must kill Fake Robb himself. This is so no one can tell Robb is a fake. He wouldn’t kill his own kin, as he proved with Ramsay. So rather than kill his son, Roose changes history.
    4. Grey Wind dies. This represents the Stark side of the real Robb dying with his mother.

    The North:

    Theon at Moat Cailin.

    1. When Roose shows up, a man is wearing the Bolton armor. That man isn’t him. The newly legitimized Robb Bolton wears the armor.
    2. As is shown with Theon’s transformation, Boltons know how to change how someone looks. Robb was changed like this.
    3. Ramsay, who Roose has no love for, is replaced by Robb when Theon isn’t there.
    4. If you notice Theon is never tortured more after Robb takes over, it is both because Robb is more kind, and because he know not of flaying and Bolton customs.
    5. Taking a line from the show here, Robb Roose’s council at every turn. Ramsay never did, but after Robb is in control a conflict arises. A vengeance hungry Robb is much too aggressive (anger at the RW explains his Bolton like behavior) and needs to be fought by Roose. “Rue the day I raped your mother” is about Cat, not Ramsay’s mother.
    6. Motivation for Roose getting rid of Ramsay is explained in his talk with Theon. Ramsay would kill his other heirs, including the beloved Robb.

    Roose’s Endgame and Winterfell.

    1. Roose will have a Bolton as King of the north, one way another. This is his backup plan.
    2. Robb obviously wants to be more like his father. This explains all the interesting he has in skinning at Winterfell.
    3. The Pink Letter was written by Robb in a friendly attempted to reunite with his friend Jon, and inform him he wasn’t truly his brother.
    There it is, the truth. Ramsay is really Robb Bolton, who was legitimized by King Tommen, and will rule the north.

  121. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    While I am a big fan of book Stannis, on paper he is drawn a bit one dimensional primarily because he is not a POV character and our only perspectives of him come from Davos, Jon and Samwell….and a wee bit in Mel & Asha’s chapters in ADwD. While I did feel that I understood him as an incomplete and willful man, I wish he was a POV (especially in ADwD). The show Stannis is just as compelling and has been developed very well, imho, with many kudos to Mr. Dillane. The show should have many opportunities to continue to make his story better and more robust as he faces his many enemies in the North.

  122. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Endless Giraffe,

    That wins the Most Crackpot Theory contest :)

  123. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    kurozukin,

    I’m not saying they’re portraying Stannis completely black and white. But they are making him more obviously controlled by Melisandre than was ever made clear in the books, and personally I feel that his character development has suffered as a consequence.

    Sure, he did have some turmoil in season 3, but it was very quickly ironed out in favor of whatever Melisandre said. For example, he didn’t wait for proof that the leeches worked but instead believed in Melisandre straight away. What happened to the talk about how ‘even a smuggler knows two onions from three’? Another classic line left out.

    For me, Stannis’s actions in Mhysa were out of character.

  124. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Then why is Stannis still sleeping with Mel even when they are no longer making shadow babies? Because he likes it, that’s why. And who can blame him? Melisandre is smoking hot.

  125. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I’m kidding (: Of course he would hit it, he’s a man, yeah (?)

  126. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Endless Giraffe,

    LMAO, my sides are hurting and I’m * gasping * ! help … for air !! Robb,
    is that you ?

    The worst I heard was a theory about Tyrion and Penny being related . I
    suppose Tywin or * Arys * slept around more often than what’s written ,
    somewhere in the ASOIAF universe of documents.

    That headache lurks somewhere in the distance, I feel it coming on after
    considering all of your posted Crackpot Theory entry. You……..Win !

  127. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    From the book perspective, I actually lost sight of when he last slept with her,
    there were so more crucial events taking place that seemed more compelling.

    Carice van Houton is very sultry with her Dutch accent, in a mistress o’ leather
    kind of way. She’s domineering and soft , in a way that many men find alluring.

    I really appreciated her character , with reference to intellect , in later books,
    especially ADWD. I wonder what GRRM has in store for her ?

  128. outdoorcats
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    Cogman actually said that Aeron was his favorite character at some point…right?? Did I totally dream that up or can someone confirm it.

    We haven’t read the last two books yet, so who knows. BUT I have a little more faith in GRRM than obviously some others do here. I have a funny feeling he didn’t make all these new viewpoint characters – some of whom are clustered in the same space – just to fill us in on the action. He’s had no problem leaving action off-screen before. The reason we have four Grejoy POVs is that the Greyjoys will have a big role to play in the shaping of the future of Westeros. As for Areo…my personal guess is that not only will he outlive Prince Doran, but he’s going to be forced to become his own man in the aftermath, start making his own decisions, and will himself be an important catalyst of events to come. At the very least we’ll almost certainly see Darkstar again from his POV and presumably learn more about him and his mysterious self, so I’d hardly call his POVs a waste like some. Not to mention that while Areo’s thoughts aren’t always the most interesting to read, he would come off 100% cooler on screen when we can’t hear any of that, and he would just seem like a badass silent type, with just a touch of intelligence, wit, and genuine concern for others. Honestly, with the right casting decision (many would say Mem Ferda, but my favorite for him is Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje) he could become a fan favorite with the Unsullied.

    Anyway…’In Defense of Hotah’ rant over.

  129. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Chickenduck,

    I’m kidding (:Of course he would hit it, he’s a man, yeah (?)

    Oui, bien sûr! Elle est vraiment superbe. Et j’adore son accent aussi…

  130. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I’ll add the choking scene to that too, IMO. Stannis would never lose his cool
    like that, neither would Tywin-the -ice cube-Lannister.

  131. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    Chickenduck,

    Cogman actually said that Aeron was his favorite character at some point…right?? Did I totally dream that up or can someone confirm it.

    You didn’t dream it. Like I said, I’m pretty vague on which one, but was definitely one of the Uncles.

  132. outdoorcats
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    But I think it was actually Aeron, of all of them. So far, even I would say Aeron is the most boring of them, and I suspect a lot of his role in the last two books will be to show us what Euron is up to, and maybe be the one to kill him. But I am kind of wondering what’s going on with that rusty hinge and all.

  133. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    GRRM said that an Aeron chapter in TWOW would be very twisted.

  134. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    According to GRRM, Melisandre is the most misunderstood character by the fans. I agree with him. Another interesting thing is that Carice has said that Melisandre is over 100 years old, which I assume she was told by one of the producers. After reading Mel’s POV chapter I think she was brought back to life at one point.

  135. spacechampion
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Off-topic, but Bobby Cannavale should be cast as the Dark Star in Game of Thrones. You know I’m right.

  136. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    spacechampion,

    Only if he forfeits his Emmy nom and passes it off to NCW.

  137. Aegon the Conqueror
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    I enjoyed this! Is there any doubt that this man has the coolest job in the world?
    What are the chances of seeing a Tormund Donal Noye verbal confrontation? I personally would love that soooo much!

  138. Endless Giraffe
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Thankyou. I have two others written and am thinking I will post them at westeros.org soon.

    Every considered Walder Frey might be the most powerful warg ever? Or that Jon Connington and Tywin Lannister are the same person? you will soon…

  139. purplejilly
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    My question didn’t come out right – I must not have been thinking properly when I phrased it – what I meant more was, was there discussion about something going on, when the writers were considering a future episode, and it was something we had Gatehouse’d to death here – like “The Targaryens HAVE to have purple eyes or it won’t be authentic”, where we went on and on, and Bryan had been skimming the boards, and therefore would say to DD, we REALLY have to try and give the Targs prurple eyes. This is really big with the fans. Or as we watched S2, we started threads saying ‘We HAVE to have the Blackfish. and the Reeds. They CAN’T cut the Blackfish and the Reeds next year.” — so what I was wondering was our speculation and endless, passionate arguments about the future seasons ever influence what did or did not hppen in those future seasons.

    Like I know, obviously, they aren’t going to go back and change any existing episode around – but was there pressure and influence felt here, that made him push for certain characters, traits, situations in future episodes. As in life, we all pick all our battles, and so I was wondering if WiC was in the back of Bryan’s head when he was picking battles on set, when, say, some HBO genius would suggest speech therapy for Hodor, so he could learn more words, and BC woudl say “nooooooo! It will cause a fan revolt if you give Hodor a vocabulary. (Or put Roz on the Iron Throne)

    One thing I think did change, was that in the original Loras/Renly se scene, there were some loud and obvious sucking sounds that were widely panned as inappropriate here at WiC. And this year, with Loras’ sex scenes, the sounds were entirely appropriate, and much more in line with a normal sex scene. I’d be happy if the gratuitous gay post-production added sucking sounds are gone now, because of WiC.

  140. outdoorcats
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    Well, as for the Tullys, the creators have said they originally wrote them into the first season, but decided to postpone their introduction to Season 2 when they saw the cast (and the cost) ballooning. Then when season 2 came around they decided to postpone them another year. So I don’t think they ever really considered cutting them.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I laughed out loud.

  141. Calamardo
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Greatest series ever. I found this awesome quiz here

  142. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    spacechampion,

    Only if he forfeits his Emmy nom and passes it off to NCW.

    Amen. And let’s keep as few hammy overactors off this show as possible, pls?

  143. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Interesting points, I reasoned at some point, that she and a few others
    mystic / greenseer/ warg links, were magically ancient in some way.
    However this would not be the first time such theories have been implied.

    As I recollect, GRRM introduced Melisandre to readers, in a less than admirable
    manner, she threatened the status quo, and Stannis’s long supporting maester.
    I wanted to dislike her, but found myself cautiously intrigued. Unlike her onscreen
    persona, where she remains two natured. In the books, she’s a multifaceted talent
    and person, with limits of power, true, but proving herself as the demands as the
    changes. At times I consider her weak , where Bran or the COTF is concerned, but
    rationalized her as a different representation of spiritual power, of Rh’llor.

    I really wished maester Aemon would not have died before giving us a
    another clue or 2 about Danerys , possibly Azhor Ahai as well
    . Well, that’s
    another installment of TWOW. GRRM would surely explain all to us, no ?

  144. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Aegon the Conqueror:
    I enjoyed this! Is there any doubt that this man has the coolest job in the world?
    What are the chances of seeing a Tormund Donal Noye verbal confrontation? I personally would love that soooo much!

    I really wanted this , badly. However there have been several discussions in previous
    threads to convince me that Noye will likely be excluded from the cast of characters.
    I suppose, as someone mentioned above, that Grenn may have some overlap in
    his onscreen character, absorbing Donal Noye’s brave efforts. Such it is , for
    the sake of adaptation and practicality , there was too much boiling over in the
    scripts, to add him as early as late S1, with expanding him a bit in later seasons.
    With Mormont gone, only Aemon appears likely to enlighten and mentor Jon,
    at Castle Black. I really don’t see Kit Harrington pulling off the ” I’m my own man,
    now ” role, all of a sudden. Glad he has some camaraderie through Pyp , Grenn,
    and Samwell, though.

  145. Zack
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    “They killed Ros to shut you all up”

    Pshaw, guys. Pshaw. I guess this smacks that one down.

    Thanks Mr Cogman, for taking the time. I especially enjoyed your comments on the greatness of “Kissed by Fire” as well as the great news that you guys view the occasional more narrowly focused episodes as being as important as I do. You can’t (and shouldn’t) do it for each episode but whenever they do happen I always seem to be really happy with the result.

  146. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    Oui, superbe !

    Ainsi, de’clarons-nous detent’e , pour maintenant ?

  147. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    What does Pshaw mean ? Is that like laughing ?

  148. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Books four and five are much tougher to adapt for a variety of reasons, chief among them the staggering amount of new plot lines, characters and locations. There are dozens and dozens of major characters introduced in FfC and DwD; far too many for one TV series to contain. So a lot of hard choices will have to be made. The universe of the show will have to be different from the universe of the books in a lot of ways; it’s unavoidable. But it’ll be an exciting challenge going forward.

    When I think of truncation and paring characters, I see it more or less like this: Any secondary or tertiary character from here on in that fills out scenes, will be gone or reduced to a walk-on. So I see it like this:

    Iron Islands — Euron and Victarion kept. Aeron Damphair is a close call. Tristofer Botley, Rodrik Harlaw, and everyone else cut. Kingsmoot might even go – and they just make Euron King, and that’s it.

    King’s Landing — Cersei’s advisors limited to Qyburn, and Pycelle, and they make Mace Tyrell the hand of the king immediately, and dump Harys Swyft, Gyles Rosby, Garland the Gross, the Stokeworths, and perhaps even jettison Taena Merryweather, too. Lose the Kettleblacks too, use Meryn Trant. She makes for a good foil for Cersei, but Season 5, once Jaime is gone, may focus on her isolation, with only Tommen and Qyburn to speak to.

    Tyrion — Keep the Rhoyne boat trip and Jon and Young Griff, but the rest of the characters mostly as background. Dump the subplot with Yezzan and Nurse; potentially eliminate Penny entirely. Keep his encounter with Jorah, and find a way to maintain Moqorro, who is awesome. Find a way to send Varys down the river for part of it, if only to result in more Varys/Tyrion conversations. Hell, maybe send Bronn with him too, for no reason other than it’s Bronn.


    Lose the entire Oldtown interludes and work around that.

    Arya – Dump the Kindly Man of Braavos and replace with Jaqen.

    Meereen — Good lord. Almost every other character not already introduced gets junked. Keep Hizdhar, but dump Reznak, the Shavepate, and every other advisor not named Missandei or Barristan Selmy. Keep Brown Ben Plumm, if only for his role later as someone Tyrion tries to influence.

    The Vale — truncate the lords of the Vale to 2-3 people. It won’t really matter, though, as this is one scene, more or less.

    Dorne — Introduce the Sand Snakes this year by having 2 of them – Obara and Nymeria – travel with Ellaria and the Viper to King’s Landing. This way we’re at least familiar. Junk the Darkstar plot, though perhaps keep Myrcella’s maiming. Areo Hotah mostly as “guy who stands next to Doran.” Keep Doran and Arianne. Lose the entire Quentyn plot (pointless dead end; felt like padding even when I was reading it.)


    Brienne — Severe truncation. Send her out with Podrick from the get-go. Lose Shadrach and all the other idiots she meets early on. Dump the Dick Crabbe journey to nowhere. Take Septon Meribald and combine him with Elder Brother (in effect, Elder Brother occasionally leaves the Quiet Isle to minister through the villages, and he takes them back to Quiet Isle); this preserves the poignant “When were you sent off to war?” bit they have. Keep Randyll Tarly simply because he’s Sam’s father. Keep the Rorge/Biter stuff of course. Most of the rest of it can go.


    Jaime – Lose the Bracken/Blackwood nonsense. Keep his meetings with Lancel and the Blackfish, and later, Brienne. Most of his Season 5 will be him in conflict with Cersei anyway before he leaves, and there’s an arc with a beginning and end for that season as a result – some will be larger than others.

  149. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Chickenduck,

    Oui, superbe !

    Ainsi, de’clarons-nous detent’e , pour maintenant ?

    I didn’t know we were at war? I always like your posts on here.

    Maybe my tone comes out wrong sometimes… I apologise if it sounded like I was arguing with you.

  150. Zack
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Zack,

    What does Pshaw mean ? Is that like laughing ?

    Basically yeah. it’s a vocalization of stifled laughing/disagreement in text form :)

  151. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Nightswatchman nr122: Cogman

    That’s a pretty seriously unfair way of diminishing the great work they’re doing of adaptation; they have to keep character very much in mind, and it’s not the equivalent of just re-writing at all.

  152. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    The Loras/ Renly scene revision sounds of interest. To be true, there were some
    very good questions omitted, and some very bad ones too. Still, I don’t believe
    enough were sampled/ chosen. Maybe there will be a part two, at a later date,
    and contain yours and others. If not a part II, the Ask the Editor feature will
    return at WiC’s choosing ( if it returns at all ).

  153. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    I understand. I read that in a book once, had no clue what it meant, as the
    passage did not describe it. I guessed correct .Thanks for the reply.

  154. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Nightswatchman nr122,

    Ummm…… No.

  155. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    My question didn’t come out right – I must not have been thinking properly when I phrased it – what I meant more was, was there discussion about something going on, when the writers were considering a future episode, and it was something we had Gatehouse’d to death here – like “The Targaryens HAVE to have purple eyes or it won’t be authentic”, where we went on and on, and Bryan had been skimming the boards, and therefore would say to DD, we REALLY have to try and give the Targs prurple eyes. This is really big with the fans.Or as we watched S2, we started threads saying ‘We HAVE to have the Blackfish. and the Reeds.They CAN’T cut the Blackfish and the Reeds next year.” — so what I was wondering was our speculation and endless, passionate arguments about the future seasons ever influence what did or did not hppen in those future seasons.

    They do take fan service into account to some degree. But from what they’ve said in interviews, I don’t think aspects e.g. the introduction of the Reeds were made due to fan pressure. For some of the details, here’s what I remember:

    – the Targaryens originally DID have purple eyes. It had to be dropped for technical reasons, both because Harry and Emilia found them really hard to act with, and also because they didn’t work for the cinematography.

    – the Blackfish originally was written into S1, as gatekeeper for the Vale. However, as the cast was getting too big to be practical, he was pushed back. I don’t think they ever planned to cut him entirely, they just wanted to delay him.

    – ditto for the Reeds, they were in early drafts of S2, but they pushed their entry back due to size of cast and ease of storytelling in 10 hours of screentime.

    – not on your list, but Patchface was in early drafts of Bryan Cogman’s scripts for Dragonstone. He decided it just seemed too ridiculous on screen… But parts of his songs were given to Shireen. Cue speculation as to which parts of Patchface’s ramblings will later become important.

    I highly recommend Bryan Cogman’s interview on GOO. I think part of what makes him a fan faouvrite among the writers is his openness will fans and the willingness to discuss fan questions publicly. Even if he did quit Twitter after getting frustrated with some of the nastier angry fan rants :)

  156. Chickenduck
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Nightswatchman nr122:
    I just think that we give to much credit to tv writers. Bryan Cogman’s only job is to cut the books of GeorgeMartin into manageable pieces for tv adaptation.Asking him about character developmnet it’s like askingany one of us, we don’t have a say in it, neither does he. Also, it always makes me smile when I watch theshows producers trying to take credit for “everything”. Let’s be honest guys, HBO probably has many producers, who could replace Benioff and Weiss any time, but the books were written by George Martin!!!

    It’s a tough job. Need to try it sometime.

    Maybe what’d be fun is for some of the regular posters on her to collaborate on scripting a fan adaptation?

    Ser Tahu’s predictions etc and some of the other speculations out there are interesting to read, I’d be interested to see how it’d translate when you sit down and try to break it into episode form.

  157. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck: I didn’t know we were at war?I always like your posts on here.

    Maybe my tone comes out wrong sometimes…I apologise if it sounded like I was arguing with you.

    Cest je qui ai mal compris ):

    Endless Giraffe gave me a tension headache with his Crackpot Theory List *>*.
    Perhaps I should listen to the tract ” Blame it on the Alcohol “, by Jaime Foxx (:

  158. Chris
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Got to tighten things up?
    Eliminate every single one of the Sand Snakes and give us Quentyn in Dorne before he leaves.
    The whole Dornish soap opera could be reduced to some nameless relatives attempting a coup, wounding Myrcella and killing Arys. Most of that plotline was just pointless doodling while GRRM pondered over the Mereneese knot. It could be dropped and the whole series made better for it.

  159. WildSeed
    Posted July 18, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Endless Giraffe:
    WildSeed,

    Thankyou. I have two others written and am thinking I will post them at westeros.org soon.

    Every considered Walder Frey might be the most powerful warg ever? Or that Jon Connington and Tywin Lannister are the same person? you will soon…

    Suicidal ……… brave ? *>*

    MacBook battery dying, must take a break…………

  160. Dorian
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    The part about difficult choices had me licking my lips in anticipation for the ruthless chopping of the Dorne storyline. Yum yum.

  161. Kris
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    My problem with your reasoning is that it implies some knowledge about Stannis’ thoughts and state of mind that we don’t get in the books. They are assumptions you are making. Stannis obviously doesn’t mind having a “mistress” in Mel because it was made obvious in book and show canon they spend a lot of time together and Mel’s bed “Saw little use” since he left the Wall. Your assumption appears to be directly contradicted by the material.

    This is my issue with some of the more strident book Stannis people. They confuse their own head canon and interpretation as what Stannis actually thinks of various things. We don’t know in the books because Stannis isn’t a POV character. We see things we wouldn’t normally see in the show because we do have Stannis’ pov.

  162. kurozukin
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    Sure, he did have some turmoil in season 3, but it was very quickly ironed out in favor of whatever Melisandre said. For example, he didn’t wait for proof that the leeches worked but instead believed in Melisandre straight away. What happened to the talk about how ‘even a smuggler knows two onions from three’? Another classic line left out.

    As book readers, we know that in the books Stannis wrestled with the Edric Storm issue for many chapters, that he didn’t make his decision until the three deaths were confirmed, etc. etc. That’s why two episodes of Gendry debate and making up his mind right after Robb’s death feels too rushed to us. But TV-only viewers don’t have that frame of reference. Pacing issues aside, they’re still presented with a Stannis who
    – feels compelled to defeat the enemies who “made his kingdom bleed”
    – is presented with an apparent route to victory by making a terrible sacrifice
    – feels conflicted but ultimately decides there is no other way
    – is willing to drop everything once he finds out there’s a much more urgent war to be fought up north
    I too am a bit disappointed that they had to cram most of the Dragonstone sacrifice plotline into the last two episodes of the season. But I don’t feel that Stannis’s characterization has “suffered” that much in comparison to other characters. I think that TV viewers are still presented with what they need to get the gist of the character.

  163. Astonished
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Nightswatchman nr122:
    I just think that we give to much credit to tv writers. Bryan Cogman’s only job is to cut the books of GeorgeMartin into manageable pieces for tv adaptation.Asking him about character developmnet it’s like askingany one of us, we don’t have a say in it, neither does he. Also, it always makes me smile when I watch theshows producers trying to take credit for “everything”. Let’s be honest guys, HBO probably has many producers, who could replace Benioff and Weiss any time, but the books were written by George Martin!!!

    Such a sobering thought. In TV writing it is known there’s not much creativity left in place by the time the final script is printed. In the case of GoT it’s evidently always been about making the original material accessible to a casual audience. It is degrading for all parties involved IMO.

    The cool thing about Brian C is that he has the time to answer WiC fan questions. He has a whole lot of time to draw out many internet responses Brian C. was connected to Benioff and subsequently to GoT through his wife who babysat for Benioff’s children. It’s like the American dream, you know? Congrats C Man for being a benign member of the GoT staff.

  164. argilac's antler
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    exactly. i personally saw it as a callback to when Jaime told Brienne he thanked the gods he wasn’t a woman (after they got captured by Locke). Brienne was throwing it back in his face as a means to motivate him.

    Garlan the Gallant,

    Yep. Speculations about the future of the show/storylines are always ridiculously over-the-top. I don’t even bother reading them.

  165. Evi
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    Someone should have asked Bryan why two of Sansa’s most important scenes this season were both given to Tyrion (including finding out about the death of her mother and brother). Is it because Sophie is too young or are the writers just catering to the fanboys who worship Tyrion and despise Sansa? I would have loved to see her reactions and I’m sure Sophie would have delivered. And Sansa’s not going to get any fans if they keep cutting the scenes that could make her more sympathetic and interesting to the viewers.

  166. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    Astonished: Such a sobering thought. In TV writing it is known there’s not much creativity left in place by the time the final script is printed. In the case of GoT it’s evidently always been about making the original material accessible to a casual audience. It is degrading for all parties involved IMO.

    What a load of shit.

  167. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:20 am | Permalink

    Kris,

    I disagree with you, about an “openly” romantic or sexual relationship with Melisandre.
    There were some passages, where this was implied, however obvious to some readers.
    Stannis was discreet, if secretive. As some described him, a bit paranoid of others
    dissing him, for any minor thing. He’d not have it so everyone knew his business.
    And really, I’m rather indifferent about the relationship. The larger debate lies with
    ” whose in charge “. There were many references to him weighing decisions And
    accounting for his faith in prophesy. Besides, whatever his virtues, or hindrances,
    my interest in his campaign nearly unravelled , until he headed north.

    It’s generally perceived by most here, that Stannis is a ” cold fish “, albeit stoic and
    brooding. His childhood maester related all essential points about young Stannis,
    in relation to his brothers, and the impact that the loss of their parents had on
    them. GRRM did not, as I recollect, give us pillow talk shared between Mel and Stan.
    To that, I would have fast forwarded to something less soap opera-ish. There were
    other characters that gave us the occasional needed distraction for that. I believe
    we were spared that of Tywin also. Everyone knew, of course, that he must have had
    his sexual appetites met…….. discreetly.

  168. AngryGoTFan
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:29 am | Permalink

    WHEN WILL JON SNOW SAY NO ONE UNDERSTAAANDS IN S4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  169. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:38 am | Permalink

    Astonished: In TV writing it is known there’s not much creativity left in place by the time the final script is printed. In the case of GoT it’s evident

    I admit to being cranky at times, after the show airs ( I love what I get to envision
    onscreen ), but I never considered the point you made here, as the reason.

    Your generalisations are a bit heavy handed, with respect to the scope of the
    show, and the work that’s entailed. One may speak as a novice, that appreciates
    the complexities at writing for such a production, really from a fan POV. To
    speak with such certainty, opens the door for ridicule. What I try to aim for , is
    discussion on certain points, without belittling, or assuming I know more than
    the experts about their jobs. That’s my attempt anyway, others here may see what
    I wrote as babblings of a Nerd. Just sayin’

  170. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    kurozukin,

    You make good points here.

  171. kurozukin
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Kris,

    I disagree with you, about an “openly” romantic or sexual relationship with Melisandre.
    There were some passages, where this was implied, however obvious to some readers.
    Stannis was discreet, if secretive. As some described him, a bit paranoid of others
    dissing him, for any minor thing. He’d not have it so everyone knew his business.

    He certainly knew that there were rumors flying about him and Melisandre when he complained to Davos in ACoK that his lords “whisper that it is sinful to keep her in my tent of a night… they whisper, while she serves.” I always took that to mean that he’s less interested in quelling gossip than in getting practical results, which Mel gives him. He told Davos that he was asleep in bed when Renly died, and later told
    Davos that Mel was with him at the time — presumably, with him in bed. So he didn’t care if Davos knew. He also said that Davos’s son Devan could confirm both of their whereabouts at the time, which means that Devan also knew. According to Jon Snow, every man at Castle Black knew that Melisandre was Stannis’s “true queen”. Stannis may not have been as flagrant as big brother Robert, but he wasn’t exactly secretive either.

  172. Javi Marcos
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    Stannis answer is simply insulting.

  173. Pepi
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    Javi Marcos,

    To whom? To fans who think they know better than keeper of the mythos? :D

  174. Red Hound
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Pepi:
    Javi Marcos,

    To whom? To fans who think they know better than keeper of the mythos? :D

    To fans not forgetting that the creators of the show admitted to not like Stannis.

  175. easterling
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    I was hoping to see Cogman address how and why Loras was written so out of character in S3.

  176. boze
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    They said Stannis would make a terrible king. Hard to argue with that.

  177. Selmy
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    boze,

    I think Stannis would be a good king. Maybe a bit harsh but he’s not mental like Joffrey and he would actually put in the effort to rule unlike Robert. And unlike Tommen he’s not a small child.

  178. outdoorcats
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    erm, clearly you’ve forgotten something, because the creators of the show never said anything of the sort. One of them did say, circa Season 2, that Stannis would make a bad king, but that’s different than saying they dislike him. Ned Stark would have made a bad king too.

  179. Pau
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    Javi Marcos:
    Stannis answer is simply insulting.

    Insulting because he didn’t say what you wanted to hear? Yeah I see a patern ;)

    Red Hound: To fans not forgetting that the creators of the show admitted to not like Stannis.

    First, that doesn’t have anything to do with the answer, wich was in itself very good, and second you have to remember that D&D like to troll a lot on the interviews, so you can’t take all they say seriously.

    And certainly is absurd to think that they’re fucking up Stannis “because they don’t like him”. They’re not teenagers. They’re professionals that have put a lot of thought in it, and yeah, maybe they fucked up (wich I don’t agree btw…I like what they doing with show Stannis….slow but steady development, thinking on the long run) but certainly they didn’t do it “on purpose”.

    Anyway, thanks a lot Bryan!! As I said the bests posts this year, fabulous insight, done with a selflessness wich is rare in this world…gona re-read it yet once again ;)

  180. John
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    I had hoped for some more answered questions than 10+indigo. :(

  181. Pau
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    TonyGen:
    Feels very cool to have my question answered and I liked the response.Very honest and direct.

    Actually yours was the best question of the Q&A as you got Bryan to talk about the future in a very subtle way. Well done!!

  182. Pepi
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    The inside the episode videos are not writers’ thoughts in a strict sense. They’re about what’s going on in the scene(s). D&D obviously can’t tell us what an awesome a king would Stannis make, if the scene itself is basically telling us how the whole realm thinks he’s terrible. They’re just reflecting on the relevant scenes, that’s all (despite them often using the words “I think”). And besides … what about this? Folks claiming D&D hate the character on the basis of the S2 inside the episode video, often forget this fresher S3 inside the episode video. :P

  183. Ser Tahu
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    Bryan’s comments on AFfC + ADwD very much worry me. Unless they plan to severely depart from the books here is my take on how they might approach it:

    Firstly, it goes without saying that every character’s arc will have to be streamlined greatly. However, assuming that all of the plotlines make it into the show in broad strokes, here is my list of which characters must be included to make it work, and which prominent characters will be cut (for characters that make it in I put the season I expect to see them in brackets):

    Iron Islands: IN: Euron (4), Victarion (5).
    UNKNOWN: Aeron (if we see him it will be in 4. It all depends on whether he has a major role to play later on, but I suspect that he could be combined into Victarion). Tristifer Botley (as a companion for YarAsha, Qarl combined into him)
    OUT: Qarl.

    Dorne: IN: Doran(5), Arianne (5), Arys Oakheart (5), Myrcella (5 with Aimee returning for the role), Trystane (5, in a very minor background role), Ellaria Sand (4).
    UNKNOWN: Areo (he could make it with a complete unknown playing him, but I have my doubts that we will see him. It seems to me that the main reason he exists in the books is to be a POV for Doran without Doran being his own POV), the Sand Snakes (I think we will get Nymeria, who will be combined with Obara. We could also get Tyene), the Darkstar (I would like to see him and he isn’t a major role as far as the acting range required)
    OUT: most of the Sand Snakes, Arianne’s co-conspirators aside from Arys and possibly the Darkstar)

    Slaver’s Bay and Essos: IN: Hizdahr zo Loraq (5, possibly 4), Tattered Prince (5 or 6 depending on how long AFfC+ADwD last), Griff/JonCon (5), Young Griff/Aegon (5), Septa Lemore OR Haldon Halfmaester (5. We won’t see both. I would prefer Haldon but they will likely go for Lemore because nudity), Harry Strickland (5 or 6), The Kindly Man (5), Brusco (5), Xhondo (5), Moqorro (5 or 6), Khal Jhaqo (6), Mago (6).
    UNKNOWN: Skahaz mo Kandaq, Brown Ben Plumm (if he does make it in it will be in season 4), Sallor the Bald (we might get him in season 4 and then he gets killed off)
    OUT: Reznak mo Reznak, Green Grace, Tyrion’s owners (me might see the Yunkish Slaver from season 3 return instead), The Widow, Rolly Duckfield, Septa Lemore or Haldon Halfmaester, The Waif, Brusco’s Daughters.

    The North: IN: Bowen Marsh (4 or 5), Cotter Pyke (5), Styr Magnar of Thenn (4), Val (4), Tycho Nestoris (5, even if he isn’t needed in the North until season 6 I think he will visit King’s Landing in season 5 first), Bloodraven (4 or 5), Leaf (4 or 5), Coldhands (4), Hother Umber (4 or 6), Alys Karstark (5 or 6), Cregan Karstark (5 or 6), Wyman Manderly (5 or 6)
    UNKNOWN: Donal Noye, Denys Mallister (could be an unspeaking extra)
    OUT: Satin, Dalla (combined into Val)

    The Riverlands: IN: Ronnet Connington (5), Randyll Tarly (5), Wylis Manderly (5)
    UNKNOWN: Hyle Hunt
    OUT: Nimble Dick, Lord Bracken, Lord Blackwood, all of the Freys and Genna in the siege camps (with their roles replaced by either Black Walder or Lame Lothar)

    King’s Landing and others: IN: Mace Tyrell (4), High Sparrow (5), Septa Unella (5 or 6), Lyn Corbray (5), Nestor Royce (5), Yohn Royce (5), Alleras (5 or 6, really Sarella Sand), Pate (5 or 6, because Jaqen H’Ghar), Archmaester Marwyn (5).
    UNKNOWN: Harys Swift, the Lords Declarant (aside from Yohn)
    OUT: Aurane Waters, Speta Scolera, Septa Moelle, the Kettleblacks, the Merryweathers, the Stokeworths, Myranda Royce, Mya Stone, Alleras’ friends (aside from Pate)

    AND ABOVE ALL:
    Keep Quentyn. He is an incredibly relatable character and his actions are set to have a huge impact on the saga. As for those around him: If we see his journey we might get both of them, with one dying in the stepstones. If not, I think we might only see one of them or possibly none)

    My full predictions can be found here (it is kind of obvious, but THERE ARE MAJOR SPOILERS):
    http://tahu909.livejournal.com/1089.html

  184. zambi76
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    They said Stannis would make a terrible king.

    And they’re right. He would make a terrible king. Maybe better than all the other fucktards hopping around Westeros/Essos at the moment (if you’re a fan of authoritarianism) but still a terrible one. Stannis is a fantastic soilder and commander. Nobody is disputing this. “Do you still think that good soldiers make for good kings?” The fanboys say yes. I say no.

  185. Dorian
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Really enjoyed Collin and Purple Jilly’s question to Bryan. Of all the likely hundreds
    of questions to submit to Bryan Cogman, why would WiC allow one that asks
    ” why haven’t the dragons been named by Danerys’ (?) Duh……. even after
    Danerys refers to Drogon by name ? I don’t remember her saying the other
    dragons names during scenes though.

    Dany has never said any of the dragon names AFAIK. Are you sure you didn’t imagine it? What episode?

    I find Bryan’s answer in this regard really lazy, btw. She’s had them for two seasons straight now. That their names have not come up once is an oversight that will result in the audience not knowing who the hell she’s even talking about unless its made really obvious – which should’ve been done ages ago.

  186. FictionIsntReal
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    I would have thought that Stannis would be the best king, but I never read the books. I then watched a video from Elio & Linda arguing he would behave in a tyrannical manner, which even Tywin wouldn’t do. But I had gotten a different impression of Tywin from the show.

    I didn’t perceive Stannis as being “controlled” by Melisandre, although of course she is an important adviser. He isn’t shown making a decision upon receiving the ravengram, so we don’t know that he’s “changing his mind”. As for sticking by his decision to execute Davos, to do otherwise would seem out of character! Davos had already been warned after his previous attempt to kill Melisandre, and Stannis thinks people should be punished for their crimes even if they are otherwise good.

    The problem with the Theon arc this season was the amount of screen time it took up without really adding much new. His arc the previous season was fantastic though.

  187. zambi76
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    I was hoping to see Cogman address how and why Loras was written so out of character in S3.

    He kind of did. Pretty much saying “the storytelling demanded it”. At least he somewhat conceded that it was way out of book Loras’s characterization.

    I think Loras role has been degraded from secondary/tertiary character to glorified extra (he had what, six lines this season?), because of the focus on Margaery and QoT. He’s pretty much a male Ros now. A blanket composite character (Loras, Randyl, Willas, Garlan) for story directing purposes. Sucks to be the Kinght of Flowers, I guess.

  188. SonofFire
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Dorian,

    They could have changed the names to Bert, William and Tom and the casual audience wouldn’t have given a damn because it’s OMG KHALEESI AND HER DRAGONS FTW!!!!

  189. Nightswatchman nr122
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I’m sorry, but he’s not writing Star Trek or Homeland or SNL, or any other show which is not based on a book, where he would have to write the actual story, invent characters, develop them and so on. He’s simply the guy who chops the books into pieces, he’s more an accountant than a writer.

  190. Jentario
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    SPOILERS FOR ALL BOOKS INCLUDED.
    Here’s how I would handle it (without being too close or too far away from the books):


    DANY (5)- She will not be a major character this season, and would appear in around 7 episodes. It would take her story from the shadow war and the burned child and up until her marriage with Hizdahar as the Yunkaii threat rises.
    Characters in: the Green Grace, Hizdahar, one supporting Meereen character, Brown Ben Plumm depending on his relevance (because his role can easily be replaced with some random mercenary that never betrays Dany or anything).

    JON- His arc will meaningfully deviate from the book. It will highly expand the battle of Hardhome, Jon’s relationship with Stannis and Melisandre and (to an extent) Davos. All his interactions with the Wildlings would be delayed to season 6, which will culminate in his stabbing (probably the only arc that won’t bleed into TWOW in that season, except for Winterfell).
    Characters in: Bowen Marsh (recast or returned), Alys Karstark and her uncle (for season 6), Wildling extras

    ARYA- The season will follow her journey to become no one, to lose her identity. Her big moment will be throwing her stuff into the water and hiding Needle. Throughout the season Arya will get wolf dreams, and she will meet Sam and she will become Cat of the Canals and she will kill Daerion the singer (after Sam leaves). Season 6 will then be about Arya gaining new identities, putting on new faces and doing whatever she is going to do in her first few chapters in TWOW.
    Characters in: the kindly man, the guy she kills
    Possible: the Waif

    SANSA- All of her AFFC story will be in season 5. Season 6 will be based on early TWOW material, and probably a lot of deviations to keep stuff for season 7.
    Characters in: Lord Royce

    TYRION(5)- His story will focus on leading up to and revealing Aegon, and will end around the time he is captured by Jorah. Aegon will then set for Westeros early in season 6 and get there around the mid-season, and there his plot would intersect with Dorne and Arianne. In season 6, Tyrion will begin in Volantis and become a slave. By the end of the season, he will have taken over the Second Sons (or was it the Stormcrows?) and gained himself a name.
    Characters in: Aegon, JonCon, one companion for them, the slaver and a slave, Moccoro, Voggaro’s Whore

    DORNE- Quentyn would only appear in season 6, and Season 5 would cover all the AFFC material. Quentyn would become a crisp around episode 7 of season 6 and Arianne’s first few chapters would be used as well. I would also cut Darkstar unless he has something important to do in the future.
    Characters in: Doran, Arianne, Quentyn and one companion, Arys, Darkstar, one or two Sandsnakes

    THE IRON ISLANDS(5)- season 5 will cover whatever’s left of their AFFC plot. It really depends on how much this story will be used in season 4. By the end of the season Vic will be on his way to Meereen and Asha/Yara will lose the battle to Stannis at deepwood. Season 6 would have Victarion reaching Meereen and the march to Winterfell.
    Characters in: Victarion, Euron, a companion for Yara
    Possible: those to get combined

    THE NORTH- Theon would be taken on a trip by Ramsay as one of his dogs. The Moat Cailin scenario will happen and by the mid-season Ramsay and Roose will have met. The rest of the season will occupy the fake Arya story and the Boltons settling in Winterfell. Mirroring Dany, the horrible wedding will take place at the end of the season. Stannis will reach Winterfell by the middle of season 6 and will begin a long siege. By episode 8, Theon will make his escape with fArya, and the scene will cut just before a giant battle in the snow (leaving Stannis’ fate in question) at the season 6 finale, followed by the pink letter. The episode (and season) will end revealing what truly happened (probably a trick of Stannis and Manderly faking Stannis’ death) and set up the beginning of season 7- the battle of Winterfell.
    Characters in: fArya, Manderly, Lady Dustin, the Karstark betrayer, Frey extras (some ending up in pies and others dead in Winterfell) and Northern Lords/their men as extras

    SAM- All his AFFC plot will make it into season 5. None of the Journey scenes will make it in, and Sam would disappear after leaving the Watch and until reaching Braavos- where all his major scenes will be shifted. He will reach Oldtown by the end of the season, and none of the Jaquen-Pate stuff will happen until season 6 which would also get heavy support from TWOW (at least two chapters out of probably 5 or less).
    Characters in: Pate, Jaquen’s new face, Sarella, Marwyn (as the good Archmaester) and another Archmaester (as the bad/annoying one), Daerion (or maybe Pyp instead?).
    Most of these can be one-off extras, depending on their future roles

    KING’S LANDING- All of AFFC for season 5 (the Kettleblacks will be replaced with an already existing Kingsgard) with a focus on the Tyrells and all of ADWD and a little of TWOW (the trial, maybe?) in season 6 which will be Qyburn heavy.
    Characters in: Lady Merryweather, the High Sparrow, a Septa, Robert Strong (which may well not need to be cast, if he is the Mountain)

    BRIENNE- Most of her journey will be cut. She will set out with Podrick and Gendry and would reach Stoneheart at the end of season 5, where she will shout “sword”. Her arc will give plenty of hints at Stoneheart and her background before the actuall confrontation and she will meet and kill (instead of the Brave Companions) Locke from season 3. Season 6 will first show some scenes between her, Stoneheart and the BWB and she will disappear until the mid-season, where she will take Jaime on a false quest.
    Characters in: no major new names

    JAIME- He’ll spend the first half of season 5 in King’s Landing, and then he’ll go to lift the siege at Riverrun. What will we do without Illin Payne (since the actor has fatal cancer)? Jaime may take Bron on his journey instead, or the role will be recast. Jaime will end the season in Riverrun. In season 6, he would settle a dispute between the two lords only to go on a wild quest with Brienne. His arc for the season will end as the BWB overtakes him, and he figures out of Brienne’s betrayal (assuming Brienne is taking him to the BWB, otherwise… who the hell knows).
    Characters in: a few one-offs for Riverland lords but no major new roles

    DAVOS- He will leave the Wall before Stannis, and will head for White Harbor. The North Remembers will happen around the end of the season, and season 6 will not have much of him at all. Maybe it will end with him meeting Rickon.
    Characters in: already spoken of- Manderly and some Frey extras

    MEEREEN(6)- The battle of Meereen will happen in episode 9 of season 6. Everything before it will make it in. Tyrion and Quentyn (whose story will be reduced a lot)- their journeys will begin in Volantis, which will also be part of the map in the opening sequence. Vic- he’ll only come back into our screens a few episodes before the battle (similar to ADWD). Barry- just like ADWD. The post-battle stuff would be largely reserved to season 7.
    Characters in: already spoken of

    DANY(6)- It really depends on where her story is going, but I would have the Daznak pit at the middle of the season. She will then disappear (“dead”) until a couple of episodes and who knows what will happen then. The Dothraki story will be given a good ending, however one can be found.
    Characters in: Khal Jaqo, a Mago replacement, extras and the rest depends on TWOW

    BRAN- This is my favorite one. Bran will have at most three episodes in season 5 and likely something similar in 6. He would have a couple of scenes (at the beginning and the end of the season) and one major episode (more on that later) in season 5 but would appear in many major scenes in an implied manner through Weirwoods and Ravens. Season 6 depends on what Bran does in TWOW, but if he stays a tree I assume he won’t do much.
    Characters in: Leaf and Bloodraven, but it’s likely they’ll be in season 4 so it doesn’t count).

    That leaves 30 new roles for season 5
    and 20 for season 6- most of which will be small roles. Out of these 50 there are around 12 necessary and major (or rather not so minor) castings. Doable? Not so much. That said, I do believe D&D will follow a similar structure to most stories while changing others altogether. For instance, it’s very possible that Sam’s whole story will be cut, too. Some of these roles may also be cast into season 4 to help out seasons 5 and 6, so this huge number may drop to the 30s- with 10 for season 6 and 20 for season 5 (which is still a lot for a show that already has a ton of characters).

    So unless they intend to completely deviate in most stories, they’ll HAVE to fall into the 20-30 new characters, which means around 15 for season 5 and 10 for season 6. That is a bit more manageable.

    What is certain is that the show will change from being 80-85% true to the books to 60-70% true, depending on the decisions the writers make. Now back to the story, here are some expanded ideas:

    THE BRAN EPISODE:

    A season 5 episode (maybe episode 6) written by GRRM which focuses almost exclusively on Bran’s story in the cave. There he will hear prophecies, see many flashbacks that will detail Robert’s Revellion and will see a glimpse into the future and the Other threat. During the episode, Bloodraven will teach Bran how to get in touch with the Weirnet and how to open his third eye, as well as how to warg ravens. Other characters who will have scenes in this episode will always be near a raven or a weirwood tree, and there would be intense shots that will show that Bran is watching them (which will then continue throughout the season).

    Roberts Rebellion- will consist of four short scenes and clips that tie them together. Bloodraven would narrate. The scenes- the tourney at Harrenhall, the killing of Rickard and Brandon, Robert vs Rhaegar on the Trident and the Tower of Joy.

    Prophecies- up to GRRM. He knows what’s coming up, and this episode will be just as relevant to us book readers as it is to show watchers. It would end with the Others at Hardhome, which would set up this season’s episode 9.

    HARDHOME:

    It is still unclear whether GRRM intends to take us there, but this is the only thought I could come up with for an episode 9 in season 5. It also splits Jon’s story very nicely between two seasons and it would remind viewers of the White Walker threat which would otherwise have been forgotten till season 7 (which is not good!).

    So Jon will hear about the Wildlings in Hardhome (Tormund and his men included) fighting the Others and will rush to save them with his men. This will be the battle that should have opened season 3. Huge, terrifying, tons of extras- real Walking Dead level stuff. It will give Jon a (mental) scar which will motivate him to do all he does in season 6, which is basically letting the Wildlings through the Wall.

  191. J
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    The final scene of S3 was so lame that I thought I’d accidentally changed the channel and was watching Gandhi. It was almost enough to make one spew all over the screen.

  192. Bex
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Thanks so much for including my question! I’m thrilled!

  193. Boojam
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Dorian: Dany has never said any of the dragon names AFAIK. Are you sure you didn’t imagine it? What episode?

    I find Bryan’s answer in this regard really lazy, btw. She’s had them for two seasons straight now. That their names have not come up once is an oversight that will result in the audience not knowing who the hell she’s even talking about unless its made really obvious – which should’ve been done ages ago.

    I agree , if she said Drogon sometime I would like know what episode.
    I have not heard it.
    Same question was asked last year, he gave the same answer.
    It’s only brief moment of dialog and not time for it?

    I wish someone had of asked why season 3 was shorter than season 1 (tho longer than season 2). Before the season started there was a statement that the episodes would be , at least 5 min. longer, maybe more, maybe one was, but in total nothing that added up to say 50 more min. for the season total.
    ?

  194. Barristan
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Bex,

    congrats ;)

  195. ace
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Interesting about the dragons not being named yet in the show. On some sites with non-readers episode recaps, they think one of the dragon’s name is Dracarys

  196. DH87
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Astonished: In TV writing it is known there’s not much creativity left in place by the time the final script is printed.

    In most cases, this is true. Historically in broadcast TV, scripts have undergone rewrites and been subject to idiotic changes required by not only network bigwigs who fancy themselves creatives but also advertisers, who latch on to a successful show then do everything they can to ruin it. That’s one thing MAD MEN has made clear to many viewers. (To be fair, a lot of network notes have to do with risque language and innuendo that would be problematic to a general TV audience.)

    One reason why MAD MEN has been innovative and game-changing is that Matthew Weiner, receives no “notes” (changes) from the network, a hardwon contractual protection that makes Weiner the envy of the script writing community. AMC, as a basic cable channel, can give him that freedom (Weiner wanted HBO as the home for MAD MEN, no doubt due to the greater freedom the pay channels provide on L-N-S-V) .

    The big-three U.S. pay channels have learned their lessons and realized that creative, ground-breaking TV is their bailiwick. They leave their shows alone to a very great extent. The only “note” I’ve heard rumored on True Blood, for example, is that the HBO execs didn’t want the heroine, Sookie, to “sleep around.” If true, it’s laughable not only because “it’s HBO” but also because Sookie has had a new love every season, unlike her book counterpart, who remained faithful to her vampire husband, Eric Northman, until he divorced her.

  197. Ashara D
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    B-Cog! Thank you SO MUCH for answering any question for which you have the time! Love your reverence for the material.

    Stannis: It is true that bookStannis and showStannis are different. In the books, he seems to be more his own man and Mel seems to be a little less sure of her position with him. We see little glimmers of that (the much-maligned choking scene), but since we get to see inside Mel’s head in the books, it is more in-your-face. Time and likely viewer confusion conspire to make this situation more black and white, but I have faith that we will see more of Mel’s frailty and more of showStan’s independence as the show goes on. Only so much can be shown in 10 hours of tv!

    Predictions of who to cut from future arcs: C’mon people! Am I the only one that has fallen for the “Septa Lemore is more than she seems” idea? I refuse to believe that this is one of GRRM’s red herrings. Ashara Lives! Please, no hate for the believers…

  198. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    kurozukin: whisper,

    Whispers do happen. Not exactly flaunting a mistress, is it. This reminds me also of
    experiencing every sexual tryst that Loras Tyrell had. Some of what we have learned
    onscreen has been clever elaboration. Some of us find it entertaining, some of us
    want time spent on meatier stuff. There are several others in roles that allow for
    needed emotional entanglements. In fact, I’m looking forward to those, in mind.

  199. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    easterling:
    I was hoping to see Cogman address how and why Loras was written so out of character in S3.

    He did get to demonstrate his ” fashion sense ” , with Sansa. He must have more
    designer potential in him than I realised. Don’t despair though, he’s going to
    return for braver roles , yet .

  200. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Nice.

  201. Nanuk
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    WildSeed,

    Then why is Stannis still sleeping with Mel even when they are no longer making shadow babies? Because he likes it, that’s why.And who can blame him? Melisandre is smoking hot.

    And glamors make for great role-playing in bed.

  202. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Dorian,

    The more I think about it, I’m not so sure if I heard Danerys utter the dragons
    names onscreen. I’m even less sure if ser Mormont or Selmy does either. I
    may be only reading it here at WiC, and other reference. At the end of the day,
    the head writer for the show corrects any answer for that.

  203. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Nanuk,

    You mean, glamour, as in a Vampire Bill hypnotizing Sookie ?

    Truth be known, if a seductive woman disrobes to reveal a gorgeous body,
    most men would find a way to shut off one of their brains. My recollection
    of Stannis is that he grinds his teeth too much, worrying about his performance,
    LMAO. I don’t know this stuff, ask GRRM for the deleted scenes. If Mel looked
    like actress Carice van Houton, she wouldn’t have to glamour….. Anyone !

  204. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    This, is better said .

  205. WildSeed
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    SonofFire,

    LMAO.

  206. Nezzer
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    FictionIsntReal:
    I would have thought that Stannis would be the best king, but I never read the books. I then watched a video from Elio & Linda arguing he would behave in a tyrannical manner, which even Tywin wouldn’t do. But I had gotten a different impression of Tywin from the show.

    I didn’t perceive Stannis as being “controlled” by Melisandre, although of course she is an important adviser. He isn’t shown making a decision upon receiving the ravengram, so we don’t know that he’s “changing his mind”. As for sticking by his decision to execute Davos, to do otherwise would seem out of character! Davos had already been warned after his previous attempt to kill Melisandre, and Stannis thinks people should be punished for their crimes even if they are otherwise good.

    The problem with the Theon arc this season was the amount of screen time it took up without really adding much new. His arc the previous season was fantastic though.

    Nice to see that some Unsullied like Stannis. I remember reading your posts at TWOP and people there aren’t big fans of him. For the CHUD Unsullied, though, he will forever be Stannis the Mannis, the One True King. The Reddit and the NeoGAF Unsullied are split. It’s pretty funny how different each Unsullied community is from another. It’s so much fun to read the posts you guys make. Sometimes I even regret having read the books so I could join your spitballing =D

  207. TywinLannister_X0X69
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    I know everyone was disappointed by Season 3 closer with Dany, but I have a feeling it will be juxtaposed with her Season 4 arc. Now at her all time high as a liberator, I think we will see all her work slowly unravel. If the show portrays her anything like what we have read, ultimately Season 4 will close with Dany facing the brink civil war… wherever she ends up.

  208. easterling
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    zambi76,

    To me it felt more like lazy writing than “the storyline demanded it.” For example Loras revealing the marriage plot to the squire. There’s no reason why it had to be Loras–why not Sansa, as it is in the book, but instead she could have told Shae who would then tell Tyrion, and so on. The Loras of season three didn’t resemble the Loras in the books, or even the Loras in S1 and S2. I see what you’re saying and I guess Cogman did address it in a way, but I’d like a more in depth answer than just “the storyline demanded it” because it didn’t. And even if it did, that’s crap writing. A character should not lose his entire personality and all previous development just to push along a storyline.

  209. easterling
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Ha, yeah, the famous fringed sleeves. I hope they’ll show those braver things onscreen, but I’ve lost a lot of faith in the writers ability to write him after S3.

  210. Cash Metzger
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Can somebody explain the indigo argument to me please? I think I missed something

  211. Jen@House Stark
    Posted July 19, 2013 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Silly me! I saw the word indigo and immediately thought of Daario not having the blue hair/beard. :giggle:

  212. Uther Greenshirt
    Posted July 20, 2013 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    What makes Stannis great is that he contrasts vs all the other throne claimants

    STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS…even tho i am from the NW :P

  213. WildSeed
    Posted July 20, 2013 at 3:57 am | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark:
    Silly me! I saw the word indigo and immediately thought of Daario not having the blue hair/beard. :giggle:

    In the “deep South” of the coastal Southeastern US, there are many grandmoms with
    blue hair aplenty. My relatives steamed large batches of natural Indigo dye , in
    vats over open fires, to dye clothes blue. Pretty commonplace in parts of Haiti.

    If the word “indigo ” is being used in some newly appropriated fashion, then I have
    no clue to what it means now. That is, if not indicating from ASOIAF reference of
    Ghiscari culture, or mine own.

    “Turbulent Indigo” just happens to be one of my favourite Joni Mitchell recordings, also.

  214. Red Hound
    Posted July 20, 2013 at 4:44 am | Permalink

    @Many on the Stannis matter

    I’m just on the boat of not liking how Stannis is portrayed, however, I’m NOT on the boat of “Stannis is perfect and makes no mistakes, there’s always a reason”.

    However, we can bet on two things about Season 4 and 5.

    1) Stannis’ good choices will be downplayed, removed, etc.
    2) Daenerys’ poor choices will be downplayed, removed, etc.

    I hope I lose.

  215. COTC
    Posted July 20, 2013 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Whooo my question!!!!!
    I love and appreciate Bryan Cogman so much

  216. Queenofthorns
    Posted July 20, 2013 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    Lol not sure why you say that when season two was completely rewritten at danaerys expense. Instead of her choices seeming reasonable and level headed as in CoK she was totally out of her depth and hotheaded in S2. Bryan even hinted that changed it specifically so she had somewhere to go character arc wise in S3. Can you explain what makes you think that in general the show runners have a tendency to downplay her “poor” decisions? Seems like they even added some in S2.

    I got over it, though, and over the things I didn’t like about Stannis s2 portrayal (Mel choking) because S3 was just so perfectly done. For both characters.

  217. Red Hound
    Posted July 21, 2013 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    Queenofthorns:
    Red Hound,

    Lol not sure why you say that when season two was completely rewritten at danaerys expense.Instead of her choices seeming reasonable and level headed as in CoK she was totally out of her depth and hotheaded in S2.Bryan even hinted that changed it specifically so she had somewhere to go character arc wisein S3. Can you explain what makes you think that in general the show runners have a tendency to downplay her “poor” decisions?Seems like they even added some in S2.

    I got over it, though, and over the things I didn’t like about Stannis s2 portrayal (Mel choking) because S3 was just so perfectly done.For both characters.

    I was looking more to the future, to what is coming in season 4 and 5. Daenerys is (one of) the most popular character for Unsullied for what I’ve seen, so I fear that this is going to happen. She’s going to be the Mary Sue of the TV show, because her mistakes of the book and other insights (Daario), will be gone.

  218. Chickenduck
    Posted July 21, 2013 at 3:05 am | Permalink

    Red Hound:
    @Many on the Stannis matter

    However, we can bet on two things about Season 4 and 5.

    1) Stannis’ good choices will be downplayed, removed, etc.
    2) Daenerys’ poor choices will be downplayed, removed, etc.

    I hope I lose.

    I’m fairly certain it’ll be the opposite.

    The writers are planning to give Stannis a development arc where he rises from S2 failure in Blackwater to S4-5 success in the battle(s) in the snow.

    Same as Daenerys, they set her S3 up as being full of triumph so that S4-5 can juxtapose it with it all falling apart.

    That’s how TV writers usually work, anyway… Characters don’t stay static – their storylines have to go somewhere. Same thing with Cersei, they toned her down a bit in S1-3 so it’ll have better contrast when she goes nuts after Joffrey’s death.

  219. queenofthorns
    Posted July 22, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    Again this doesn’t really follow from what the show runners have done with Dany’s character so far. They have not shied from showing her fail and I see no reason why they will change that trajectory. S3 was very close to the book, if anything they made her look a bit dumber since her plan to take Yunkai was much more straightforward and relied a lot more heavily on Daario, plus she was trusting of Barristan very quickly. If they were all about catering to supposed TV Dany fans like you think they wouldn’t have made her such a screw up in S2.

    For the life of me I’ll never understand why most Stannis fans are so defensive about Dany. It’s possible to enjoy both characters believe it or not.


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