GRRM talks season 4 & beyond
By Ours is the Fury on in Events, Filming.

Today at his Capclave 2013 “Not A Panel,” George R.R. Martin talked up Game of Thrones and hinted at what we will and won’t be seeing in the future. The author spoke frankly about the ramifications of changes in the adaptation, and also chatted about what he might have done differently in his own writing.

According to the reports from Capclave:

  • There is “a week or so left of filming,” and Martin confirmed the fourth season does pull from the novels beyond A Storm of Swords.  (It seems he may have received some bad info – our sources are saying there is still a month left to go in shooting.)
  • The  problem of the “butterfly effect” in the show’s adaptation was brought up, and he cited the specific example of the show deleting the two older Tyrell sons, Willas and Garlan. Martin stated that they will become important in the books, and that they have “parts to play.”
  •  A change that has repercussions for season 4 is Marillion’s tongue removal from the first season. Martin said that the change was made (from an anonymous singer being the victim of a de-tonguing) because they wanted Joffrey to maim someone the audience would recognize. He believes this is an issue because of the part the singer plays in Sansa’s storyline, how he affects her interactions with others in the book, and he doesn’t believe another character will be fulfilling that role on Game of Thrones.
  • Martin said that at this point, he considers his books to be his, and the show to be Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff]‘s.
  • There will be no prequels written but we will learn more about Robert’s Rebellion in upcoming books.
  • The behind-the-scenes material has done well on HBO, and they’ll be doing more “Making of” content and similar productions on top of what they already do.
  •  He does have anxiety about the TV series passing the point where he is in the writing. The metaphor he used was feeling like he was “bound to train tracks and could see smoke wafting,” though he can’t yet see the train. Martin mentioned that the Tyrion book doesn’t take away from his other writing, because it was mostly his publishers selecting the quotes, so people had no basis for their complaints about it pulling him away from his work on TWOW.
  • When it comes to point-of-view characters, if he had it to do over again, Martin says he may have changed it up, mentioning Robb as a character who might have been “sensible” to have as a POV.

 Ours is the Fury:  I think they’ve had a few years to figure out how to work around Marillion’s absence on the show, but I’m intrigued by the other Tyrells. It’ll be interesting to find out more in the books what is happening with them, and how GoT will work around that.


421 Comments

  1. Crimson33
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Can this be my first first?

    Edit:
    Yep, it was!

  2. growingstrong
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Willas and Garlan FTW

  3. Laura
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Couldn’t they just introduce Willas and Garlan later on? I don’t really see why that would be a problem.

  4. Azad Injejikian
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    They can create another pervy singer for the storyline if need be. It doesn’t matter IMHO

  5. Urban Bran
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Hmm I don’t think I agree with GRRM about making Robb a POV if he could rewrite. It’s not really necessary, is it?

  6. A-Gone
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    I want to see a SEASON 4 COUNTDOWN CLOCK RIGHT NOW !!!

  7. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Willas and Garlan and Robert’s rebellion and maybe just maybe HOWLAND REED AND TOWER OF JOY
    …excuse me this is a show site right

    had the show even mentioned the ToJ and Howland?

  8. D'Arcy
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Why didn’t D&D ask if the Willas / Garlan switch might become an issue? Or did they ask and the answer showed that they could already pave around it?

    It’s an interesting thing. It reminds me of Rowling ensuring that the producers of the HP film include Kreacher because of his future importance.

  9. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Laura:
    Couldn’t they just introduce Willas and Garlan later on? I don’t really see why that would be a problem.

    Because Loras is played up as the only highgarden heir?
    I dunno. Marillion’s role could be played by some other singer, and maybe the Tyrell boys’ roles could be done by some other Reach lords. Maybe not

  10. Ours is the Fury
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Laura,

    Because they’ve already established that Loras is the heir to Highgarden on the show- him suddenly having two older brothers would be a little weird.

    Azad Injejikian,
    What George was saying was that, he doesn’t believe they did that- they did not create another singer to fill that role. I don’t think it’s as much a problem as GRRM does though, but he expressed concern to the panel about it affecting the Sansa/Lysa dynamic.

  11. SomeoneWhoReadsStuff
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    I really don’t know why D&D, probably knowing that garlan and willas would play a bigger part in the future, didn’t simply mention the Tyrell guys and add them later on when they become important, it would have costed a few seconds of screen time and would make the story flow a lot beter with the books… I predict that when we get to season 6 the books and the series will be quite divergent.

  12. LadySnark
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Laura:
    Couldn’t they just introduce Willas and Garlan later on? I don’t really see why that would be a problem.

    The wiki for show still lists Garlan and Willas on the Tyrell family tree but as younger brothers of Loras. It quotes the source as HBO. Im not to sure though how that would work on a practical level though since Loras isnt that old to fit 2 younger brothers in and still have them old enough to function in a future storyline but there is I guess a foothold to bring them in if needed. Leaving them out has always been a source of frustration to me. Big mistake from the start.

  13. mariamb
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Interesting comment about the importance of Willas and Garlan Tyrell.

    As a book reader, I am glad to hear that they will have “parts to play” in the story going forward. Willas, especially, has always intrigued me – smart, well-read, held in high regard by Olenna. Willas struck me as the Tyrell to be wary of. As far as the show goes, how will their story lines be represented? Will their actions be transferred to Loras who – so far – has not yet joined the KG? Will we see him leave KL and head back to Highgarden?

    I don’t care much about Marillion and whether or not they bring him back into the story.

  14. siberia82
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Couldn’t they just introduce Willas and Garlan later on? I don’t really see why that would be a problem.

    Loras has been established as the only Tyrell son on the TV series. When Tywin threatens Olenna by telling her that he would force Loras to join the KG, he makes it clear that Highgarden would then be passed down to Margaery & Joffrey’s children, so Willas and Garlan don’t exist in the show’s universe.

  15. Ragman's Harbor
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Crimson33:
    Can this be my first first?

    Edit:
    Yep, it was!

    Well Congrats! Who Cares?

    The Tyrell brothers will definetly play a part in the Greyjoy storyline, since Euron and Victarion have taken the Shield Islands and are raiding all the ships near Highgarden, The Harbor, and Oldtown. A war easily forgotten in the midst of all the chaos in Westeros.

  16. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Nothing really new here, except for the news about Willas and Garlan. I think that a workaround they can do for that is have them as cousins of Loras. Unless it is important that they, specifically, are the heirs, I don’t think it will cause much of a problem.

  17. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Really, Willas and Garlan? They matter….really?

    Nothing original but I bet Dontos is the patsy instead of Marillion.

    A Robb POV…hah! Authors always have 20-20 hindsight. That was 15 years ago, George!

  18. Sean C.
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard
    Nothing original but I bet Dontos is the patsy instead of Marillion.

    Per Martin, nobody will be, as he understands it.

  19. Laura
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    I forgot about Tywin and Olenna’s conversation about Loras. I just remembered Margaery saying something to Sansa about her potentially being the Lady of Highgarden. But I don’t know that there has been so much emphasis on Loras being the heir that it would make things that confusing. I would imagine when most people think of Loras they would think of the fact that he’s pretty and a good knight and his relationship with Renly. But who knows, hopefully the writers have it covered.

  20. Jordan
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    I suppose if/when Loras joins the Kingsguard in the show, Willas or Garlan could be introduced as cousins, who would inherit in lieu of him.

    I doubt that the show would have not included Willas and Garlan if Martin had given specifics on their roles in the future. From some of the interviews from both Martin and D&D, I get the impression that he gave surprisingly vague specifics of the ending of the story.

    Also, I suppose because I’m a show defender I really dislike how Martin makes these comments which seem to be clearly aimed to make purists hate the show and I kind of wonder if Martin himself hates it, but is too polite/was paid to much to say so.

    From his comments, it seems that Martin feels the show will be fine and not surpass the books, so long as it keeps every single detail from the books- basically, he encourages the show to be blamed for delays in writing.

    In terms of Marillon, that is less forgivable, since his role in the books was already known when the show came out, but he does seem more easy to replace.

  21. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.: Per Martin, nobody will be, as he understands it.

    Is it that cut and dry, or is it that no singer will play that role? I think GRRM is playing with words here.

  22. Sean C.
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    I suppose if/when Loras joins the Kingsguard in the show, Willas or Garlan could be introduced as cousins, who would inherit in lieu of him.

    Margaery inherits after Loras. The show made that clear.

    Hodor’s Bastard: Is it that cut and dry, or is it that no singer will play that role? I think GRRM is playing with words here.

    Martin isn’t “playing with words”. The article isn’t direct quotes, it’s a summary.

  23. Jordan
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    I’m confused. I thought that under Westerosi inheritance laws (which I thought were translated into the show) women didn’t inherit?

    Could you remind me of what dialogue you are thinking of?

  24. Sean C.
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Sean C.,
    I’m confused.I thought that under Westerosi inheritance laws (which I thought were translated into the show) women didn’t inherit?

    Could you remind me of what dialogue you are thinking of?

    No, that’s incorrect. Female children inherit after male children. There’s a rather large plot around how Sansa has inherited Winterfell, remember?

    When Tywin confronts Olenna, he threatens to name Loras to the Kingsguard, which will make Margaery the heir to Highgarden, and thus Joffrey and Margaery’s children will inherit it, thus leading to the Tyrell name passing from the lordship.

  25. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    By the time we get to that point, if the show needs them, they could be added as cousins, one would imagine.

    As for Marillion, I could really care less. And hell, maybe they included him as it was, just as the guy who plays a guitar and doesn’t sing. Or something. Either way, it fulfills one of the rules D&D seem to be abiding by – eliminate or reduce the role of tertiary characters when their appearance only complicates things.

  26. Arkash
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    The Marillion stuff reminds me of Mago and George’s rage that he was killed in the show !

    Come on, they’ll just use random Dothraki-looking actor to play Mago when he reappears in the show !

    As for Marillion, any singer at the Eyrie could do the trick !

    The most interesting stuff there is that Willas and Garlan still have a role to play !

  27. Jordan
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Thanks for the info. My understanding was that women only inherit if there are no other male heirs- like Sansa would inherit because all of the other Stark males either are dead or are believed dead (not addressing Jon’s possible claims).

    They’d have to retcon that line, but if Margaery had male cousins or if hypothetically, Sansa did, I think they would inherit first (or at least could be believably made heirs).

  28. Ross
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber: As for Marillion, I could really care less

    Please could I direct you to the following link? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

    :-)

  29. Sean C.
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Sean C.,
    They’d have to retcon that line, but if Margaery had male cousins or if hypothetically, Sansa did, I think they would inherit first (or at least could be believably made heirs).

    No, they wouldn’t. Not in the books, anyway.

    The Iron Throne succession works differently than the lordships, though; it operates by placing all men before all women.

  30. siberia82
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the info.My understanding was that women only inherit if there are no other male heirs- like Sansa would inherit because all of the other Stark males either are dead or are believed dead (not addressing Jon’s possible claims).

    This is only true for the Iron Throne itself (which is why Stannis and Renly are ahead of Myrcella in the line of succession). Everywhere else in Westeros (except for Dorne), daughters are ahead of uncles and male cousins when there are no sons. This is the same system used in the English monarchy (e.g. Queen Elizabeth II had no brothers, so as the eldest daughter of King George VI, she inherited the throne).

    They’d have to retcon that line, but if Margaery had male cousins or if hypothetically, Sansa did, I think they would inherit first (or at least could be believably made heirs).

    As someone else already mentioned, if Loras becomes a KG member on the show, then Margaery becomes the heiress to Highgarden, regardless if Willas and Garlan are her cousins.

  31. GG
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    I’m really confused now. If they’re so important, why didn’t he tell D&D that when they were over at his house last Summer to discuss the future of the series. Surely, if they’re that important, they would have included them in the show.

    TBH, we don’t know that they don’t exist in the show. We just know that they’re no longer older than Loras. Garlan & Willas can still exist, but as his younger brothers instead. And if they go ahead and actually kill Loras off, due to the injuries he received while attacking Dragonstone, Willas can be the second born son and become heir to HG, like he was in the books

  32. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Ross: Please could I direct you to the following link?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

    :-)

    thanks, ya cheeky bastard. ;)

  33. Nancy
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    I got the impression from the show that Loras and Margaery are the only Tyrell children. Because why have Cersei marry Loras then? Obviously not the case in the books.
    Martin saying that Willas and Garlan will be important in the future makes me wonder if Loras will be confirmed as dead eventually and Margaery meets her maker. The Tyrell’s really have not taken hits like the Greyjoys, Starks, Lannisters and Martells—so I think their time is coming. And Mace is the Hand of the King, which we all know is like being the Defense of the Dark Arts teacher in Harry Potter-a very unlucky position.
    It would have been awesome to have a Robb POV in the books. I think GRRM mentioned this before.

  34. Sean C.
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    GG:
    TBH, we don’t know that they don’t exist in the show. We just know that they’re no longer older than Loras. Garlan & Willas can still exist, but as his younger brothers instead.

    No, they can’t be, because if they were, they would be the heirs to Loras, not Margaery, and we know that Margaery is Loras’ heir.

  35. siberia82
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    TBH, we don’t know that they don’t exist in the show. We just know that they’re no longer older than Loras. Garlan & Willas can still exist, but as his younger brothers instead.

    Nope, Tywin made it crystal clear on the show that Margaery is next in line to inherit Highgarden after Loras, so both Willas and Garlan can’t exist as sons within the main branch of House Tyrell.

  36. Rose Papillon
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    WiC: Do you guys have any Australian staff members? GRRM is doing a huge tour of Australia next month, and I was wondering if you had anyone who would be covering it?

  37. Easteros bunny
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    That’s great George…but finish the book! Maybe call the folks from hell on wheels to come help you out with laying the tracks!

  38. House Snow
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    The only time this butterfly effect stuff matters is if it becomes an issue of who is the heir. So if they are important because of something they do then it wont be hard to work around. Also you can appreciate the bind D&D are in. People talk about that the time left beofre GRRM needs to put material out but I would argue we are actually well past the period of no return where the show will have no choice but to make big changes b/c the material hasn’t been written.

  39. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    It’s been 5 books and we still haven’t heard from Willas. If any character was absolutely necessary I’d hope that he would have informed D&D. Unless they wind up on the throne or are a key person aiding one of the contenders, then they really aren’t necessary. If we are only going to hear about their exploits secondhand, then they aren’t absolutely necessary. IMO.

  40. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    I really like Garlan and Willas. It’s good to see that the characters are actually going to matter in the books’ future. Garlan seems like a good, kind man. Even though Willas has never appeared directly, Olenna’s description of him is very favourable. To be honest, I think I like him even more than Garlan (or, rather, the idea of him) because I associate him so strongly with Sansa’s last naive dreams of a genuinely happy ending.

  41. Garlan the Gallant
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney,

    As you can tell by my name, I love Garlan too. But the dude’s not that nice. If you reread the Purple Wedding chapter, you see that Garlan was the one best positioned to drop the poison in the chalice. There was way too much attention on Queen Margaery, Olenna is far too short, the Tyrells would never entrust the task to a mere servant, and Olenna talked about how she trusts Garlan. He also happened to be right next to the chalice, as he was sitting with Tyrion. He had ample opportunity to drop it in while the pie/Joff/Tyrion chaos was happening. This also means that while he was being all “gallant” to Sansa/Tyrion, the fucker was plotting to frame them for kingslaying and serve them to Ser Ilyn’s block!

  42. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    There’s still room for Willas and Garlan in the show technically, seeing as Loras is described as ‘the heir to highgarden’ although that would imply to many he is the only son in the tyrell household, it could also mean that willas and/or garlan in the show are younger brothers, not older, shouldnt matter to much to the plot if D&D feel like putting them in somewhere down the line especially if loras doesnt survive his current predicament in the books, he being the heir to highgarden instead of willas would likely become irrelevant

  43. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant:
    Siobhán Mooney,

    As you can tell by my name, I love Garlan too. But the dude’s not that nice. If youreread the Purple Wedding chapter, you see that Garlan was the one best positioned to drop the poison in the chalice. … This also means that while he was being all “gallant” to Sansa/Tyrion, the fucker was plotting to frame them for kingslaying and serve them to Ser Ilyn’s block!

    Hadn’t heard that particular perspective on the PW before. Thx!

    Lady Snark The wiki for show still lists Garlan and Willas on the Tyrell family tree but as younger brothers of Loras.

    What “wiki” are you talking about? “Younger” brothers, really?

  44. LadySnark
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    Ive heard that theory but I really cant find it my heart to be mad at anyone who poisons Joffrey. And my own thoughts are if it is the case that Garlan slipped the poison into the chalice, I dont think it was intended that Tyrion be blamed. Don’t forget there is bad feelings between Oberyn and the Martells, he is a known poisoner and present at the wedding. Even Oberyn himself expressed surprise he wasn’t blamed for it

  45. Garlan the Gallant
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    LadySnark,

    The Tyrells and LF planned this out a long time before the wedding, the seeds were planted before Blackwater even. You’re forgetting that Olenna used Sansa as a drug mule; she knew full well that Sansa would be blamed. Sansa was wearing a full hairnet of the amethyst that would be found in Joffrey’s corpse. Garlan encouraged and backed up the drunken Tyrion in his known antagonism towards Joffrey, resulting in a ton of hostility and tension between the latter two. Then LF brought out the jousting dwarfs which caused an even more terrible public scene between Tyrion/Joff, right before Joff choked. Sansa was not only wedded to Tyrion but also happens to belong to a family that was slaughtered thanks to the Lannisters. And like her husband, she had the best of reasons to want Joff dead.

    With all this evidence I think it’s a given that the savvy Tyrells would know exactly who’d be blamed for the murder. “Tyrells are Lannisters with roses.”

  46. WheelofIceandFire
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    Off topic but everyone here should vote for Maisie Williams to win Best British Actor for BBC Radio 1′s Teen Awards
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/teenawards/2013/vote/?

    (you have to register but all you need to do is make up a username and password and it lets you vote)

  47. Rygar
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I dislike him.

    The books are his and the show is D&D’s? Wow. Brilliant. Anxious that the show will pass where he is with the published story? Yes it will. D&D have a commitment to honor.

    Fuck, I think I may have to join ‘Is Winter Coming’ now.

  48. Huge Floppy Gut
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Having Robb as a POV would of definetly made the red wedding scene that more dramatic because he would of been established as more of a main character.

    Urban Bran:
    Hmm I don’t think I agree with GRRM about making Robb a POV if he could rewrite. It’s not really necessary, is it?

  49. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I dislike him.
    Fuck, I think I may have to join ‘Is Winter Coming’ now.

    Don’t do it, man! Don’t do it! It’s ugly and dire over there.
    Actually, I rather enjoyed the threads where the members discussed what they did for the 5-6 years between books 3 & 4 and 4 & 5………NOT!

  50. King Tommen
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Of all things to get worked up over, it’s weird that Martin fixates on really trivial stuff like Mago and Marillion. First of all, the “butterfly effect” doesn’t really come into play for these types of characters when they get killed off in the show because it’s very easy to write in a different character to carry through whatever minor plot point they contribute to later on. It’s not like the show can’t suddenly portray that aspect of the books, they’ll just do it with a different character in a slightly different way.

    Secondly, having a television background, he should know better than most that the way he writes many characters and plot developments make it very, very difficult to maintain so many of these really minor characters. He has this awful habit of introducing a random character, have them do next to nothing, tuck them away off-screen for 3-4 books and then say “oh, they’re important, they’ve got a part to play, just wait”. I very much question how much the Tyrell brothers really have a part to play in the series endgame. If he means that we’ll see them again, then ok. But are they absolutely essential to the series? I highly doubt it.

  51. LadySnark
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    Yes I suppose what you say makes sense and you are likely right. I think I’ll go find a comfy corner in one of the Seven Hells though because I still can’t find it in my heart to think ill of him.

  52. King DBC
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    GG,

    I don’t think Loras was injured, that’s what they told Cersei so she couldn’t name him her champion in her trial. I know it’s way before, but I’m a believer of the Great Tyrell Conspiracy…

  53. LadySnark
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    And one more thought or perhaps question for you. What are your thoughts then on the Tyrells plan for Sansa. If they set her up as well as Tyrion to be blamed for the death by making her the mule, what is their end game plan for her since its likely they are involved in seeing to her being transported away with LF

  54. GeekFurious
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Fuck, I think I may have to join ‘Is Winter Coming’ now.

    Oh no… what… ever… will.. we… do.. without… y…

    Anyway, Willas and Garlan are an easy fix for the show. Either make them younger or make them openly homosexual, or invent something that means they were thought dead and returned. Blahblahblah.

    In a few seasons the show is going to have to invent a whole lot of stuff anyway so, time to get creative!

    You know, like Jon Snow lives!

  55. Sean
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    LadySnark,

    I think slipping Sansa out was a move that Littlefinger made on his own. He is prone to do that. It would work better for the Tyrells to have both Sansa and Tyrion killed for Joff, thus no more louse ends. They were never going to get her married into their family and thus have Winterfell.

  56. The Dragon Demands
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    For god’s sake they need to put at least one other Tyrell son back into the show.

    They didn’t know if Shireen would be in the show during Season 2 but later changed their minds.

    This isn’t just “butterfly effect” anymore but “drastically changing the plotline” – if there are only two Tyrell children, what about *the future of House Tyrell* based on who their children might be?

    This isn’t over.

  57. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen:
    Of all things to get worked up over, it’s weird that Martin fixates on really trivial stuff like Mago and Marillion.First of all, the “butterfly effect” doesn’t really come into play for these types of characters when they get killed off in the show because it’s very easy to write in a different character to carry through whatever minor plot point they contribute to later on.It’s not like the show can’t suddenly portray that aspect of the books, they’ll just do it with a different character in a slightly different way.

    Secondly, having a television background, he should know better than most that the way he writes many characters and plot developments make it very, very difficult to maintain so many of these really minor characters.He has this awful habit of introducing a random character, have them do next to nothing, tuck them away off-screen for 3-4 books and then say “oh, they’re important, they’ve got a part to play, just wait”.I very much question how much the Tyrell brothers really have a part to play in the series endgame.If he means that we’ll see them again, then ok. But are they absolutely essential to the series? I highly doubt it.

    Well said. I think (given the photos we’ve seen of filming) people are going to really have a hard time remembering Dontos at all – what with his 3 minutes of screentime in Season 2 Episode 1 – and if D&D made the effort to include that character and bring him back for what one imagines is a brief appearance – then it’s silly to say we really needed Willas and Garland. Of course they could have just written around that somehow and not mentioned them, but it’s an unnecessary complication. Such as it was with Jacelyn Bywater or the whole Jeyne Westerling thing.

  58. The Dragon Demands
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    LadySnark: The wiki for show still lists Garlan and Willas on the Tyrell family tree but as younger brothers of Loras. It quotes the source as HBO. Im not to sure though how that would work on a practical level though since Loras isnt that old to fit 2 younger brothers in and still have them old enough to function in a future storyline but there is I guess a foothold to bring them in if needed. Leaving them out has always been a source of frustration to me. Big mistake from the start.

    I’m an Administrator from the Game of Thrones Wiki. Basically, we weren’t too enthusiastic about such drastic changes, so we refused to acknowledge them for the longest time – now, we’re dragged into it grudgingly, kicking and screaming. Note that at every possible point I’ve written, “consider that they didn’t even think Shireen would be cast in Season 2″

    “oh but they already hyped Loras as the “heir of Highgarden’”

    Bullplop.

    Change it. It’s only a mild retcon. They already moved it around to make Margaery older than Loras (to match the actress’s age) — just state…no, ADMIT, that there are other Tyrell brothers. Maybe even only one as a condensation.

  59. Sean C.
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    NomadicDirewolf:
    There’s still room for Willas and Garlan in the show technically, seeing as Loras is described as ‘the heir to highgarden’ although that would imply to many he is the only son in the tyrell household, it could also mean that willas and/or garlan in the show are younger brothers, not older,

    No, there isn’t, because, as has been pointed out repeatedly, we are told that Margaery comes after Loras in the line of succession to Highgarden, so there are no other male Tyrell children of Mace Tyrell.

    Garlan the Gallant:
    LadySnark,

    The Tyrells and LF planned this out a long time before the wedding, the seeds were planted before Blackwater even.You’re forgetting that Olenna used Sansa as a drug mule; she knew full well that Sansa would be blamed. Sansa was wearing a full hairnet of the amethyst that would be found in Joffrey’s corpse. Garlan encouraged and backed up the drunken Tyrion in his known antagonism towards Joffrey, resulting in a ton of hostility and tension between the latter two. Then LF brought out the jousting dwarfs which caused an even more terrible public scene between Tyrion/Joff, right before Joff choked. Sansa was not only wedded to Tyrion but also happens to belong to a family that was slaughtered thanks to the Lannisters. And like her husband, she had the best of reasons to want Joff dead.

    With all this evidence I think it’s a given that the savvy Tyrells would know exactly who’d be blamed for the murder. “Tyrells are Lannisters with roses.”


    Not quite. Sansa wouldn’t have been implicated if the Tyrells’ original plan had worked. It was only Littlefinger’s counter-moves to their attempts to wed Sansa into House Tyrell that set her up as collateral damage to Tyrion being taken down.

    The Dragon Demands:
    Note that at every possible point I’ve written, “consider that they didn’t even think Shireen would be cast in Season 2.

    No, they were uncertain, so they set up that perceived as ambiguous language. They did nothing of the sort with the Tyrell brothers.

  60. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Huge Floppy Gut:
    Having Robb as a POV would of definetly made the red wedding scene that more dramatic because he would of been established as more of a main character.

    The RW needed to be more dramatic? I doubt that is possible.

  61. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber: Well said. I think (given the photos we’ve seen of filming) people are going to really have a hard time remembering Dontos at all

    Although it may be disappointing to some purists, Dontos only really needs to meet Sansa in the garden once, slip her a note from LF, then help her escape when the time is right during the PW. Who cares if he is remembered as the bumbling drunk from S2? Once he serves that purpose, he is entirely expendable….or could LF use him for nefarious purposes in the Vale?

    Regarding Willas and Garlan, perhaps they are to play a role in the Greyjoy invasion or the upcoming Dorne/Connington conflict. How the heck can we know?

  62. BrianAu
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Folks,
    I want D & D to really start making changes this season and beyond. Let’s be honest book 4 was fair and 5 was only marginally better. Neither will adapt well to TV where unsullied already complain of Danerys slow plot transformations. How many of us book readers HONESTLY thought books 4 and 5 were great and did not require major editing? To keep the show at an excellent level will require many changes starting at tail end of the season to come…

  63. Dani
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    Nothing really new here, except for the news about Willas and Garlan. I think that a workaround they can do for that is have them as cousins of Loras. Unless it is important that they, specifically, are the heirs, I don’t think it will cause much of a problem.

    I was thinking the same thing about making them Loras & Margeary’s cousins. They could still be heir’s to Highgarden just like Prince Harry is still Pince William’s heir after the new baby prince (George right?) and weren’t Fergies daughters heirs after Will & Harry? Willas could still be older and be the Castellan of Highgarden in his Uncle’s abscence. Garlan could still be the other great warrior in the family they can just say Margeary wanted her cousin as her personal guard. Boom! You’ve got a reason to introduce a new set of Tyrells. All of which I am totally on board for!

  64. LadySnark
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    See the problem with not casting at least one more Tyrell brother is it makes the story arc for Loras considerably more difficult to fill all their roles.

    Loras is made a Kingsguard (removes from being Highgarden heir but Ok there marg..bleh)
    He leads the assault on Dragonstone, is horrifically burned (allegedly). Thats going to make it interesting when the Ironborn start invading the reach. Who rallies the forces then since its the Tyrell brothers that are behind that, Mace? Considering whats ahead for Marg I cant see him leaving KL. They have backed themselves into a wall unless they make some huge deviations from the canon. This is without knowing what their future roles in the next books are even going to be and hints are they will have at least some role. And while it can be argued that any one Tyrell is expendable, I don’t think all 3 can be.

  65. Bard
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Dani: I was thinking the same thing about making them Loras & Margeary’s cousins. They could still be heir’s to Highgarden just like Prince Harry is still Pince William’s heir after the new baby prince (George right?) and weren’t Fergies daughters heirs after Will & Harry? Willas could still be older and be the Castellan of Highgarden in his Uncle’s abscence. Garlan could still be the other great warrior in the family they can just say Margeary wanted her cousin as her personal guard. Boom! You’ve got a reason to introduce a new set of Tyrells. All of which I am totally on board for!

    Sounds good to me! Best solution I can think of.

  66. The Red River Viper
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    TheBerylfly,

    Agreed! The revelation as to what occurred at the TOJ and why HR has not left in so many years while taking into account the abilities that the Reed’s have…..I am not sure if it’s something everyone had figured out already or for the sake of not revealing too much I think it’s time we heard the jaws drop when they find out why …..very exciting

  67. Jordan
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Bard,

    Although that would seem to make a lot of sense, Sean C. has been arguing that this wouldn’t work because I guess the rules of inheritance are such that Margaery would inherit before cousins if Loras didn’t.

    I suppose I’d argue that it isn’t so clear that this is the rule in the series that they couldn’t make it so “Cousin Willas” is the heir.

    I wonder if this means the show won’t mention Oberyn having maimed Willas in a tourney.

  68. DH87
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: Also, I suppose because I’m a show defender I really dislike how Martin makes these comments which seem to be clearly aimed to make purists hate the show and I kind of wonder if Martin himself hates it, but is too polite/was paid to much to say so.

    GRRM probably doesn’t hate the show but “His books [are] his, and the show [is] Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff]‘s” is accepted author-speak for “They’ve changed things up so much I no longer recognize my own work. You fans are on your own” in the post-Anne Rice world.

    Charlaine Harris started out saying “Alan Ball is a genius” in TB Season One and ended up saying “I write Sookie Stackhouse, not Anna Paquin” to wash her hands of the ream job done by the show on her heroine. Lee Child barely survived the roasting he got from fans when he approved the laughably miscast Tom Cruise to play Jack Reacher—neither Child nor the planned “franchise” have been heard from since.

    I’ve paraphrased TV veteran/bestselling author Nora Roberts’s comment here before: showrunners will tell you anything when they are trying to buy the rights but they always do what they want in the end.

    The GRRM/D&D honeymoon may be over but, as I predicted here a couple of years ago, it seems to be unavoidable for a successful show.

  69. Jordan
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    And to that, I kind of say bullshit (to GRRM, not you). The series has definitely made some changes but it still follows the books very closely, and I think its very clear (maybe not to purists) that D&D love the books, and both try to bring to life the great set pieces, but also to closely adapt the books as a whole.

    Do you think that Game of Thrones is/will be comparable to True Blood or those other adaptations?

    I do have a feeling that Martin does feel that way, seeing that he made a point of not saying anything complimentary about the show, but instead brought up that “butterfly effect thing” as well as the usual “show moving fast and overtaking the books line” (which as I noted, basically shifts blame toward him for not writing the books fast enough onto the show runners for (supposedly) going too quickly).

  70. Khal Frodo
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen:
    Of all things to get worked up over, it’s weird that Martin fixates on really trivial stuff like Mago and Marillion.First of all, the “butterfly effect” doesn’t really come into play for these types of characters when they get killed off in the show because it’s very easy to write in a different character to carry through whatever minor plot point they contribute to later on.It’s not like the show can’t suddenly portray that aspect of the books, they’ll just do it with a different character in a slightly different way.

    Secondly, having a television background, he should know better than most that the way he writes many characters and plot developments make it very, very difficult to maintain so many of these really minor characters.He has this awful habit of introducing a random character, have them do next to nothing, tuck them away off-screen for 3-4 books and then say “oh, they’re important, they’ve got a part to play, just wait”.I very much question how much the Tyrell brothers really have a part to play in the series endgame.If he means that we’ll see them again, then ok. But are they absolutely essential to the series? I highly doubt it.

    Exactly this. I have the utmost respect for George and his work, but I really don’t understand some of the nitpicking he does about the show. I highly doubt Willas is going to be uncovered as AAR, or Garlan sits the Iron Throne. People aren’t going to remember Marillion (or care, really). Hell, I didn’t even realise it was him that got his tongue cut out in Season 1 until now!

  71. Jentario
    Posted October 13, 2013 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Makes sense. But wouldn’t GRRM know of these changes?

  72. GeekFurious
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    BrianAu:
    How many of us book readers HONESTLY thought books 4 and 5 were great and did not require major editing?

    Both books were fantastic as one read. Which they were kind of intended to be anyway. I don’t know why some people have to belittle the quality of those books just because they weren’t as good as the previous.

    So I can HONESTLY say I loved them. I loved all five books.

  73. That Stark boy
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    D’Arcy:
    Why didn’t D&D ask if the Willas / Garlan switch might become an issue? Or did they ask and the answer showed that they could already pave around it?

    It’s an interesting thing. It reminds me of Rowling ensuring that the producers of the HP film include Kreacher because of his future importance.

    Kreacher’s monologue was one of the most heartbreaking moments in the entire series, along with the Mirror of Erised. They should have put it all on the film, not only that “No matter how hard Kreacher tried, Kreacher couldn’t destroy it” BS. I hope we see the Tyrell brothers right away in Winds, along with Harry the Heir, I just want to know how they are. And about Marillion, I think they could just add another singer. It would do no harm.

  74. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    The mindset of showrunners seems to change from (1)worshipful adherence to the original material, to (2) giving lip-service to the “spirit” of the original material, to (3) significantly re-directing (adding new characters and plot lines), to (4) out and out shark-jumping. Showrunners always use book fans in the early days to drum up buzz on sites like these, where they know they have to promise faithfulness to the original material. Then as the show takes off, they begin to think it’s because of them and they lose that devotion; eventually total amnesia sets in, and you have stars like one on TB last season saying the showrunners had “run out of material” in Seasons Four and Five, apparently not even aware of the fact that they had 13 original books to draw from!

    Then, when book fans start to drift away…..cancellation.

    Just this weekend at NY Comicon, the showrunner for 2014′s Outlander promised total adherence to the immensely popular series of books. He said Starz wants Outlander to be filmed entirely for the book fans, which is very unusual, and let others come along as they will, so we’ll see if there is finally an exception to the rule.

    That said, D&D will have an interesting time trying to spin GRRM’s “his is his, and theirs is theirs” comment. And personally, I think D&D would like nothing better than outstripping GRRM and creating their own Seasons 6 and 7 or 7 and 8 out of whole cloth.

  75. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Jentario:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Makes sense. But wouldn’t GRRM know of these changes?

    I’m sorry, but I’ve lost the context of the question. I’m surprised something I’ve written makes sense to someone. :)

  76. House Farwynd
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    The only thing that bugs me about Loras’ older brothers (which are significantly older as far as I can tell) is that the show spent time making clear they don’t exist.
    They could have just not mentioned the fact that Margaery and Loras have older siblings and then later on (4th, 5th or 6th season) introduced those brothers if they wanted. Or not.
    So asserting that Loras was the heir and these guys don’t exist was unnecessary, silly and only complicates things for the show writers.
    And us I guess, can you see all the debate in this thread?

  77. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    My impression of George’s comments: I am pissed off that I have to write the next two books ASAP otherwise the show will continue where I Ieft off. I’m tired and slightly bitter so I’m going to make some passive aggressive digs.

  78. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Rygar: The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I dislike him.

    I interpret his remarks as code for “I’ve argued against these changes—randomly turning Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Whatever, torturing Theon for eight episodes so Alfie can get a paycheck, shuffling the Tyrell family like a pack of cards—for three years and am pretty much over the whole thing. What’s mine is mine and what’s theirs is theirs.”

  79. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Dani: They could still be heir’s to Highgarden just like Prince Harry is still Pince William’s heir after the new baby prince (George right?) and weren’t Fergies daughters heirs after Will & Harry?

    Even though there is no direct parallel in GRRM’s world with the British line of succession, the latter did not change with the birth of HRH Prince George. Everyone previously ranked just dropped down a slot. Currently it is, in order, Charles, William, George, Harry, Andrew, Beatrice, Eugenie, Edward, James, Louise, and Anne, the Princess Royal (followed by her children, who, as children of a female royal married to a commoner, carry no royal titles of their own).

  80. Skipjack
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    I think GRRM is hinting at bigger differences. When he mentions relative non-entities like Mago or Garlan then I think he must know that this makes no nevermind. So perhaps there may be some real departures down the line. I know the show wants to stop bringing in new characters as often as the books. Maybe George should be the one to take the hint.

    For instance, I can see Jaime getting all of Kevan’s dialogue from here on out, minus the part about being murdered by Varys. I’d be surprised to see Kevan return to the show in fact, so poor Pycelle is going to have get murdered all alone. There will be greater and greater departures and I think GRRM is both preparing the audience and disowning the changes.

    The biggest problem I have with what he said is the idea that Robb could have been a POV character in retrospect. That makes me doubt his grip on his plan. I’m glad he was disciplined enough earlier to have no POV chapters of kings and concentrate on those close to power- and I had thought his including Daenerys as a POV character meant that she would likely never become queen but rather something else, like savior/messiah

  81. Phil
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    I’m just glad the show is for the most part following the books, minus a few changes for budget and time (and others for neither of those which just make me go WTF to D&D). Most of the changes have worked, and so far not TOO much butterfly effect. (again minus a few changes that have been terrible). It’s not like The Walking Dead (or any of Stephen King’s books that have been made into TV or film) which are basically just using the characters and loose plot. (Seriously, It and The Stand are terrible movies).

  82. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Ah, the purist reveals himself (partly joking here). The reason why they showed Theon’s torture (besides the fact that Alfie Alan, unlike Theon, works for a salary) is so that it would be believable for him to show up next season as the pathetic “Reek” who no longer identifies himself as Theon.

    All of this torture happened to Theon off-screen in the books. The books didn’t need to show it because a) in a book, unlike a show, you can shuffle characters off-screen for as long as you like and b)Theon’s POV could convey the change (for the record, I don’t like the sexualized nature given to some of the torture in the show).

    And for the record, I don’t agree with your argument that departing from the source material is what sinks shows (and it seems quite clear to me that D&D genuinely do love the source material- it isn’t (as you seem to be characterizing it) a lie that they used to sucker Martin).

    Game Of Thrones likely has far more fans than the books did (at least prior to the adaptation).

    If True Blood lost fans after departing from the books, that’s because the changes made were bad, not because it was unfaithful to the books- I would bet good money that the far majority of the viewers have probably never read any of the initial books.

    The same of course will be true for Game of Thrones, but again, I don’t see the changes so far as either that big or that bad.

  83. Sean C.
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Bard,
    I suppose I’d argue that it isn’t so clear that this is the rule in the series that they couldn’t make it so “Cousin Willas” is the heir.

    It is clear, because Tywin and Olenna explicitly said that Margaery was Loras’ heir. There’s no ambiguity there.

  84. siberia82
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    I was thinking the same thing about making them Loras & Margeary’s cousins. They could still be heir’s to Highgarden just like Prince Harry is still Pince William’s heir after the new baby prince (George right?) and weren’t Fergies daughters heirs after Will & Harry?

    The line of succession for the British monarchy—Westeros follows the same rules, other than Dorne and the Iron Throne—is as follows:

    1. Prince Charles
    2. Prince William
    3. Prince George (William’s son)
    4. Prince Harry
    5. Prince Andrew (Charles’ next oldest brother)
    6. Princess Beatrice (Andrew’s eldest daughter)
    7. Princess Eugenie (Andrew’s youngest daughter)
    etc.

    If Prince William had a daughter, she would be 4th in line, behind her brother, but ahead of her uncle Prince Harry (as I’ve mentioned in a previous post, daughters inherit ahead of uncles and male cousins). On GoT, it’s firmly established by Tywin’s comment to Olenna in “The Climb” that Willas and Garlan cannot be the younger brothers of Loras and Margaery, so the line of succession for Highgarden would be:

    1. Loras
    2. Margaery
    3. Hypothetical brother of Mace (I know Mace only has two sisters in the novels, but the showrunners could invent a Tyrell uncle)
    4. Eldest son of above (Willas would be here if he were introduced as a cousin)
    5. Next oldest son of #3 (Garlan’s position if he were a cousin)
    6. The eldest son of Garlan, or if he has no sons, then his eldest daughter (I’m just adding this as a bonus, as his wife Leonette is pregnant in ASoIaF)
    etc.

    So TV!Margaery still inherits Highgarden above her male cousins.

  85. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    That doesn’t make sense (not sure why that comment was made I mean).

    If the Tyrell family was in the show as it is in the books, there’s no way that would work because the younger brothers would inherit before Margaery, right? Something Loras wrote identifying her as his heir wouldn’t mean much I wouldn’t think.

    Its kind of like Robb’s will (not sure why not included in the show; maybe it will be). Robb identifies Jon as his heir, but it doesn’t necessarily mean much in a context in which Bran and Rickon are revealed to be alive. And if all of the Starks were together and alive and well, even if Robb declared Sansa his heir, Bran would still inherit before her.

    Also, one other point RE Martin’s complaints is that it doesn’t make much sense to complain about the fourth season of the show containing material from the fourth and fifth books in that things that happen in ”AFFC” and “ADWD” sometimes happen at the same time (or at least the lead up happened during the same time).

    So for example, besides the case of Theon, even though Hizidar or (for example) some Iron Bank stuff didn’t really come up in the books until after ”ASOS”, those things still existed during that time (its just Martin hadn’t thought of them yet).

  86. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    siberia82,
    In ASoIaF brothers come before daughters, so it would actually be:
    1. Loras
    2. Hypothetical brother of Mace (I know Mace only has two sisters in the novels, but the showrunners could invent a Tyrell uncle)
    3. Margaery
    4. Eldest son of above (Willas would be here if he were introduced as a cousin)
    5. Next oldest son of #3 (Garlan’s position if he were a cousin)
    6. The eldest son of Garlan, or if he has no sons, then his eldest daughter (I’m just adding this as a bonus, as his wife Leonette is pregnant in ASoIaF)

    I’m not sure whether Margaery would come before or after the sons of the hypothetical brother, but she would definitely come after the hypothetical brother. In season 1 Renly clearly states “I’m fourth in line”, meaning that the line of succession for Robert was:
    1) Joffrey
    2) Tommen
    3) Stannis
    4) Renly
    5) Myrcella
    6) Shireen

  87. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    DH87:
    The GRRM/D&D honeymoon may be over but, as I predicted here a couple of years ago, it seems to be unavoidable for a successful show.

    Maybe GRRM could consult a political dialogue coach, but I’m sure he is feeling that inevitable train bearing down upon him. Hopefully that stress isn’t stifling his creative juices. Plus, I read his trip to DC wasn’t that great (bad plane ride, muddy mood). He read pieces at CapClave that were over a year old, maybe two years old….his TWoW reading was a reedited Tyrion/Selmy chapter that he had previewed before (probably to be included in the upcoming ADwD paperback…again…marketing, not passion).

    What we are perceiving is probably correct. His career and responsibilities have expanded exponentially, money is flowing, his schedule is chaotic, he is distracted and living a very full life, I assume….he writes new TWoW stuff only when he can. He is damn successful…anyone’s dream, right?

    From our perspective, we’re seeing all these sidebar projects (supplemental stories, GRRMarillions, etc) being touted, which in all logical prudence should only be produced if the series were complete, right? He has decided to expand and profit from his created world before the tale is complete. [I fear there are still many knots yet to unravel]

    The only way GRRM can take the wheel away from the diverging GoT juggarnaut is to produce a huge TWoW within the next year that answers questions, moves the story forward in leaps and bounds, creatively streamlines threads, and is a compelling vision for our time. That is a tall order for any author, especially one that is as immensely successful, professionally distracted and parentally defensive as GRRM has become.

    (fingers crossed)

  88. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Jordan: I don’t see the changes so far as either that big or that bad.

    The same was said by 9.5 out of l0 True Blood fans, bookies or otherwise, after Season Three of TB as well.

    Jordan: If True Blood lost fans after departing from the books, that’s because the changes made were bad, not because it was unfaithful to the books-

    It lost fans because the changes were not only bad but unnecessary, since a clearly successful plot path had been laid out in the books and was the show’s for the taking. This is what is uniquely maddening about adaptations. You are much more satisfied with a Happy Meal when you think the chef can do no better than if you see a gourmet meal laid out on the table next to you, hot and tempting, while you are forced to eat your pre-warmed burger and fries.

    Book fans and show fans begin all excited together, then book fans become increasingly unhappy and show fans increasingly defensive until the two groups no longer interact. Slowly as the show worsens, show apologists begin to slip away rather than admit the bookies were right, both groups find other things to read/watch, critics do the same, and the show folds up and dies.

    I have begun to believe the book fans, though much smaller in numbers than the show-only fans, are the ones who keep the buzz/momentum going between seasons and attend events and are the life blood for long-running shows. Chris Albrecht of Starz must, too, if he told Ron Moore pretty much the same thing about Outlander.

  89. siberia82
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    In ASoIaF brothers come before daughters, so it would actually be:
    1. Loras
    2. Hypothetical brother of Mace (I know Mace only has two sisters in the novels, but the showrunners could invent a Tyrell uncle)

    A brother of Mace is an uncle, not a brother. The daughter of a lord is ahead of her paternal uncles. Even TV!Tywin acknowledges that Margaery is Loras’ heir, not their paternal uncle.

    I’m not sure whether Margaery would come before or after the sons of the hypothetical brother, but she would definitely come after the hypothetical brother. In season 1 Renly clearly states “I’m fourth in line”, meaning that the line of succession for Robert was:
    1) Joffrey
    2) Tommen
    3) Stannis
    4) Renly
    5) Myrcella
    6) Shireen

    You didn’t read my previous post properly. I said that the rules of the British monarchy apply to most of Westeros EXCEPT for Dorne and the Iron Throne. What Renly and Loras discussed in Season 1 was specifically the line of succession for the Iron Throne. Highgarden and the other non-Dornish Westerosi regions follow the same system as the British monarchy.

  90. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    siberia82,

    siberia82:
    A brother of Mace is an uncle, not a brother. The daughter of a lord is ahead of her paternal uncles. Even TV!Tywin acknowledges that Margaery is Loras’ heir, not their paternal uncle.

    Margaery is Loras’ heir IF he becomes Lord. But we aren’t talking about the line of succession from Loras, but from Mace, because he, not Loras, is Lord.

    siberia82:
    You didn’t read my previous post properly. I said that the rules of the British monarchy apply to most of Westeros EXCEPT for Dorne and the Iron Throne. What Renly and Loras discussed in Season 1 was the line of succession for the Iron Throne.

    Where is that written? From what I can tell the only exception is Dorne. The Iron throne came in line with Andal traditions after the Dance of the Dragons. Andal tradition (ie what everyone except the Dornish follow) has all male descendants, as well as brothers and their male descendants, before female heirs (including daughters).

    So, Mace’s line of succession would be:
    Loras
    Hypothetical brother and his sons
    Margaery

    Sorry about the 50 million edits :P

  91. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Never watched it, but from what I understand, True Blood was by the end a “random events plot” (with porn).

    I don’t believe this is what Game of Thrones will end up as (I suspect you do, but for some reason refuse to say so outright).

    It was just really bad from what I hear. Similarly to Dexter (which again, haven’t watched). Yes, I know Dexter was also based on a book, but like True Blood, I think the shows problem is that they suck, not that they department from the source material in part because I also understand that the source material for both isn’t necessarily that good.

  92. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: That is a tall order for any author, especially one that is as immensely successful, professionally distracted and parentally defensive as GRRM has become.

    I don’t follow GRRM religiously so I can’t argue your points or their accuracy. I can say that Charlaine Harris, who’s of the same era as GRRM, seemed equally burdened by her vastly simpler and shorter books post-TB. The last four, which coincided with the most recent four seasons of TB, received the poorest critical reception of the series. The very last was so roundly condemned that some fans suspected it had been written by someone else, and its sales have been disappointing compared with those of the previous books, if best-seller status is taken into account.

  93. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    And I’m guessing your theory is that the show caused her to become a bad/worse writer, right?

    Just like it will be D&D’s fault if the remaining books in the series (should they exist) are not as good as previous ones, right?

  94. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    DH87: I don’t follow GRRM religiously so I can’t argue your points or their accuracy….

    If you want to depress yourself regarding TWoW’s progress, just visit GRRM’s Not a Blog site. You get absolutely nuthin’ but distraction….not even teasers. :(

  95. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    Jordan:

    Do you think that Game of Thrones is/will be comparable to True Blood or those other adaptations?

    True Blood was quite different from the Sookie Stackhouse Mysteries from the beginning, actually. The first season was reasonably faithful, but not nearly as much as GoT Season 1 (or 2, even), and the book fans were complaining even back then. The show lost continually in quality after S3, but if you ask me, it’s getting cancelled because next year Alexander Skarsgard’s contract runs out, and he is the show’s money horse.

    GoT is pretty successful on its own. I’m not sure that will keep for 8 or 9 Seasons, because that’s a really long time, especially if Dany spends 3 of those seasons sitting on her butt in Meereen, while Tyrion mopes drunkenly somewhere in Essos. But on the whole, it’s much more enjoyable than True Blood at the same stage, whether you’ve read the books or not.

    Where GRRM is concerned – it’s his world. He guards it jealously. I suspect he’s grumpy about the little changes, because he doesn’t want different spins on his characters (though I personally don’t think Marillion being gone affects the Sansa/Lysa relationship at all – Lysa will probably still be first condescending, then ragingly jealous, without some dude first trying to assault Sansa and then plinging merrily in the background, while aunty tries to kick her through the moon door), but especially because he really feels that train approaching. I actually like him a lot, but he should probably let this one go.

  96. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Jordan: I don’t believe this is what Game of Thrones will end up as (I suspect you do, but for some reason refuse to say so outright).

    I don’t say so outright because we’ve been cautioned by moderators that this site is basically pro-GOT and, for good reason, want to keep it an upbeat and positive place for those who are excited and enthusiastic about the show. That’s the main reason I post very rarely here anymore, except on a couple of topics.

    That doesn’t mean I don’t hope for the best for the show. I just wish I saw fewer of the same warning signs I saw four years ago with a show that was winning awards, racking up ratings, and acclaimed as the hottest thing on TV.

  97. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    Good points. I think Marillon in the book may be a further continuation of that theme/lesson for Sansa (as if she hadn’t learned it already) is that men who seem handsome and courtly are often really jerks.

    And thinking about, Lysa on the show does seem subtly different than her book counterpart such that I wouldn’t necessarily expect her to be obsessed with handsome flatterers.

    On the show, Lysa’s stand out trait is being crazy rather than being an ugly woman who still thinks herself beautiful (and yes, is crazy). You don’t even need Marillon for her to have a dysfunctional relationship with Sansa.

  98. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:43 am | Permalink

    Jordan:
    DH87,

    Never watched it, but from what I understand, True Blood was by the end a “random events plot” (with porn).

    I don’t believe this is what Game of Thrones will end up as (I suspect you do, but for some reason refuse to say so outright).

    It was just really bad from what I hear.Similarly to Dexter (which again, haven’t watched).Yes, I know Dexter was also based on a book, but like True Blood, I think the shows problem is that they suck, not that they department from the source material in part because I also understand that the source material for both isn’t necessarily that good.

    Dexter was quite successful still in the end, though, wasn’t it? I remember that they had a very messy showrunner switch somewhere around Season 4, but the ways they changed the books actually worked quite well at first. (Haven’t watched beyond S4, but the people I know disliked the show after that for specific reasons that had nothing to do with the books). I don’t think you can necessarily argue that adaptations just get bad over time if they don’t follow the books.

    As for Charlaine Harris, she wrote what, thirteen to fourteen Sookie novels? I had the feeling she was pretty much done with the topic by the end, so I don’t know if you can really blame TB for her writing style decreasing. And People have strongly complained about the writing changes in AFFC way before GoT was even a twinkle in D&D’s eyes, that can’t really be their fault, either.

  99. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Jordan:
    The Blue Grace,

    Good points.I think Marillon in the book may be a further continuation of that theme/lesson for Sansa (as if she hadn’t learned it already) is that men who seem handsome and courtly are often really jerks.

    And thinking about, Lysa on the show does seem subtly different than her book counterpart such that I wouldn’t necessarily expect her to be obsessed with handsome flatterers.

    On the show, Lysa’s stand out trait is being crazy rather than being an ugly woman who still thinks herself beautiful (and yes, is crazy).You don’t even need Marillon for her to have a dysfunctional relationship with Sansa.

    Yes, and she learns, again, that homely men can be brave and kind (re: Lothor Brune, whom she even thinks is the Hound for a moment). And you’re right in regards to Lysa. I mean, the point here is that Lysa is obsessed enough with Littlefinger to try to kill her niece and gets murdered for it, not that she’s fond of manipulative weasels.

  100. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    Jordan: And I’m guessing your theory is that the show caused her to become a bad/worse writer, right?

    Just like it will be D&D’s fault if the remaining books in the series (should they exist) are not as good as previous ones, right?

    I don’t want to belabor this point further, but CH acknowledged that she extended the Southern Vampire Mysteries from the original l0 to 13 books because her publishers wanted to take advantage of the TB buzz, which was at its height at the time. This has been seen as the cause of stretching and padding of plot points to the detriment of the final books. She also acknowledged being pressured by her publisher not to kill off a minor character who was being turned into the male lead on TB, more or less to preserve a romantic triangle that never existed in the books. More recently, she has taken an epilogue to the final book and had it packaged as a “gift book,” per her publisher, in what is seen as a money grab tied to TB’s last hurrah by some of her long-time fans (you can read Ms. Harris’s published remarks on her website and interviews as well as the many thousands of aggrieved posts on amazon.com if you want proof for these conclusions).

    I have no theory on D&D’s influence on GRRM. I’m just saying fame can burden a lot of writers who don’t have one of the top TV shows in the world so we shouldn’t be surprised if it does the same to those who do.

  101. siberia82
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Margaery is Loras’ heir IF he becomes Lord. But we aren’t talking about the line of succession from Loras, but from Mace, because he, not Loras, is Lord.

    It’s 1:50 AM for me, so I may not be wording things correctly at this very early hour, but it doesn’t really matter if Loras isn’t currently the Lord of Highgarden; Margaery is still directly behind him in the line of succession. The order will not change until Loras has a child.

    Where is that written? From what I can tell the only exception is Dorne. The Iron throne came in line with Andal traditions after the Dance of the Dragons. Andal tradition (ie what everyone except the Dornish follow) has all male descendants, as well as brothers and their male descendants, before female heirs (including daughters).

    From http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs
    Ideally, “…by law a daughter should inherit before her uncle or cousin…”

    I can’t remember exactly where I read the info in the novels (especially not in my sleepy state—and I’m definitely going to bed after this post), but it was mentioned somewhere that daughters inherit before uncles (and the passage was not referring to Dorne). I recall being surprised by the revelation, as I had only started reading the books after I had finished Season 2 of GoT, so I initially assumed that the line of succession that Renly and Loras had talked about on the show applied to every Westerosi region outside of Dorne. But when I stumbled upon that specific comment, I then realized that the Iron Throne followed a different system.

  102. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,
    Dexter was still successful in viewership numbers, but critically it went down the drain after season 4. And even then, I think a lot of viewers just hung around because they had already invested ~48 hours into the characters and story. There was a definite decline in quality after season 4.

    Also, re the Daenerys-Meereen comment: assuming that the ADwD Meereen plot is spread over two seasons Daenerys would only be in the city from late season 4 – mid season 6, in other words 1.5-2 seasons, so I don’t see where people keep pulling three seasons from as an argument against faithfully adapting ADwD. Also, those two seasons in the city would have her executing slavers, immediately into a shadow war in season 5, a siege in the second half of the season and the Meereenese knot and fighting pits in the first half of season 6, so I don’t see how people think that wouldn’t translate well to screen.

  103. Elia
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    Laura,

    Because in the show now, Loras is heir to Highgarden, which makes him the oldest son of House Tyrell; he’s something like a few years older than Sansa, who’s fourteen, and if they’re following the book for him as well then he’s only eighteen this season. Margaery is sixteen, so they’ve presumably got to be younger than her as well, which doesn’t really work given their roles in AFFC.

  104. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    The Blue Grace,
    Dexter was still successful in viewership numbers, but critically it went down the drain after season 4. And even then, I think a lot of viewers just hung around because they had already invested ~48 hours into the characters and story. There was a definite decline in quality after season 4.

    Makes sense, Ser Tahu. I don’t think this specific case was ever really linked to the books, though, was it? I mean, they are really quite different from what I hear, and especially Dexter’s first season is just a whole different level of quality.

    As for the rest, peace! That was my exaggeration, not what I’ve heard or read people say. I may have been a bit bored through these chapters. But I’m hardly a fan of said characters -in the books, for Tyrion. I like him on the show. Speaking of whom, I wonder if GRRM is on some level pissed that he’s less… colourfully flawed on the show than in the books. By now they are really two different characters, and since that’s his favourite….

  105. boze
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Here’s the reason: nobody cares about Essos. What people want is to see her invade Westeros ASAP.

  106. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    siberia82,
    Ok, I concede defeat in this topic. I just assumed that the rules that the Baratheons go by after gaining the throne were the same as everyone else, because it doesn’t make to much sense for them to change their houses traditions just because they gain the throne. I was also making assumptions based on this quote from the AWOIAF article on the Dance of the Dragons:

    “Upon Viserys’ death in 129AL, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Ser Criston Cole, later called “the Kingmaker”, defied the king’s will, and crowned Prince Aegon as Aegon II. Ser Criston’s motivations for doing so are unclear, but it was reputed that he and Rhaenyra were lovers, and their affair ended badly, adding a personal dimension to the conflict. He may simply have wished to uphold Andal tradition.”

    So I just assumed that in Andal tradition males come first, unless it involves going up on the family tree from the current Lord.

  107. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    Elia,

    they’ve said Margaery is older on the show. I’d figure she’s maybe meant to be early 20s?

    It might get difficult with younger Garlan and Willas, but as long as we don’t know what their “role” is even supposed to be, we can’t know for sure if it will. And if they make them 16 and 17 – why not. Richard III commanded the whole of Northern England when he was 17.

  108. Kyrion
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    George has said the shows is D/D’s baby and the books are his baby since season 1, but back then it was seen as positive, now, its all of a sudden negative?

    Why are people just now making conclusions that he dislikes the changes? He has said repeatedly that he understands the changes made

  109. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Rygar:
    The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I dislike him.

    The books are his and the show is D&D’s?Wow.Brilliant. Anxious that the show will pass where he is with the published story? Yes it will.D&D have a commitment to honor.

    Fuck, I think I may have to join ‘Is Winter Coming’ now.

    Come to the dark side, we have cookies, as they say.

    Martin said that at this point, he considers his books to be his, and the show to be Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff]‘s.

    Since we are unlikely to see the ending of this story on paper any time soon, I’m OK with seeing David and Dan’s version of events and considering it canon. I don’t think TWOW will be released before 2016-2017 and the last book in this decade and the previous two books were mediocre at best, and D&D did a pretty good job until now, so this whole thing is in good hands. It’s not like True Blood at all, where Alan Ball pretty much threw out the books entirely by mid-2nd season.

    The problem of the “butterfly effect” in the show’s adaptation was brought up, and he cited the specific example of the show deleting the two older Tyrell sons, Willas and Garlan. Martin stated that they will become important in the books, and that they have “parts to play.”

    Meaning more POVs, more pointless filler and even more characters in the books that are already overloaded with pointless filler and characters, when the story really needs to start to come to the close?

    He does have anxiety about the TV series passing the point where he is in the writing. The metaphor he used was feeling like he was “bound to train tracks and could see smoke wafting,” though he can’t yet see the train.

    Then he should just sit and write. There is no other way, the books won’t write themselves. Maybe he should ask people like Steven Erikson or Bernard Cornwell about how to release books more or less every year (and in Erikson’s case – huge books).
    IMO, the show will pass him in some storylines (Bran, for example) in 5th season (or maybe even this season, since all of his ASOS material was finished by the end of the 3rd season and he has 3 or so chapters in ADWD) and there will be huge changes to the material from AFFC and ADWD. I welcome it.

  110. Turncloak
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Dino and Byron have a new GOT video up! They discuss how their season 3 predictions went.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVWTX0AAnOk

  111. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    boze,
    People wanted Robb to avenge Ned, and for Joffrey to die ASAP. Did that happen? No. Does that not happening make it a bad show? No.

    I would argue that although people don’t care about Essos, they don’t really care about Westeros either. They care about the characters, and as long as the characters are doing interesting things (and I would consider shadow wars, sieges and the Meereenese knot to be in that category) people will watch. Also, Daenerys and Tyrion are the two most popular characters among viewers. People will be kept watching because for the whole of season 5 Tyrion is heading for Daenerys. People will be drawn by the prospect of two most popular characters meeting.

    Also, book readers often act like Daenerys is the only character on the show, and that if her storyline is boring (which it won’t be) people will stop watching. There are many other characters with interesting storylines that will keep people watching.

  112. Turncloak
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    A possible explanation is that GRRM did not know himself that Willas and Garlan would be relevant a year ago when D&D were creating the scripts. I suppose they can make Willas and Garlan Loras’ younger brother but they already implied that Loras is the only heir

  113. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: f you want to depress yourself regarding TWoW’s progress, just visit GRRM’s Not a Blog site. You get absolutely nuthin’ but distraction….not even teasers. :(

    The great problem—one shared by GRRM, CH, and Diana Gabaldon (author of the Outlander series)— is that TV fame came relatively late in life (all three are in their 60s) while their book series were unfinished. They literally don’t have the time to say to Alan Ball, or D&D, or Ron Moore, “Come back in five years when I’ve finished the books so I can devote my attention to consulting on your show.” Who can blame them, after twenty years, if they jump at the chance? On the other hand, revisiting material they wrote twenty years ago has to have an impact on their current work (both GRRM and DG write 1,00-page books) in terms of the concentration and intensity they can bring to it on a daily basis.

    Even without the TV show coming his way, it’s very possible that GRRM’s best work is behind him. There would be no shame in that. He’s caught in a dilemma of his own making, but his ambition to tackle the project has to be applauded and supported.

    Edit to add: that said, I am surprised by the number of CH and GRRM fans who have said that they will never again begin a series that hasn’t been completed, based on how these series have gone.

  114. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy: It’s not like True Blood at all, where Alan Ball pretty much threw out the books entirely by mid-2nd season.

    Agreed: it’s now clear AB never planned to follow the books on TB, despite BS to the contrary, and didn’t do so after Season One. Once he’d had his “say” and his “vision” dried up, he bailed.

  115. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    DH87: Agreed: it’s now clear AB never planned to follow the books on TB, despite BS to the contrary, and didn’t do so after Season One. Once he’d had his “say” and his “vision” dried up, he bailed.

    Yeah, TB is a good example of adaptation gone wrong on all possible levels.

  116. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy: eah, TB is a good example of adaptation gone wrong on all possible levels.

    Well, at the time, I lost track of how many times AB was called a “genius” who could do no wrong. I was literally asked to leave one forum when I expressed an opposing view, particularly when I termed him the Wizard of Oz. It took five years for most of the AB defenders to eventually recognize that there was no there there in his interpretation. The pseudo Buddhist/Jungean theorist laid it on thick, though. I give him credit for that.

  117. boze
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: People wanted Robb to avenge Ned, and for Joffrey to die ASAP. Did that happen? No. Does that not happening make it a bad show? No.

    Very stupid comparison.

    Dany’s storyline up to this point has had zero influence on the other storylines, unlike Robb’s and Joffrey’s. And that’s the very reason why people will start losing patience. Burning unknown slavers is fun and all, but when you don’t see what the point is in the big picture, it just tends to feel like filler at some point. And filler isn’t that much entertaining.

    Ser Tahu: Also, Daenerys and Tyrion are the two most popular characters among viewers.

    Daenerys and Tyrion were the two most popular characters among book readers as well pre-ADWD.. And look at how much vitriol those two “storylines” received in ADWD.

    Ser Tahu: People will be drawn by the prospect of two most popular characters meeting.

    If we’re following your planning, they won’t meet until S7 (and even then, we’re not sure). Again, don’t you think that the TV viewers will start losing patience at some point (I know a lot of book readers did)?

    Ser Tahu: There are many other characters with interesting storylines that will keep people watching.

    Which characters have interesting storylines (from a non-reader point of view) in AFFC/ADWD?

  118. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:05 am | Permalink

    The Red River Viper:
    TheBerylfly,

    Agreed! The revelation as to what occurred at the TOJ and why HR has not left in so many years while taking into account the abilities that the Reed’s have…..I am not sure if it’s something everyone had figured out already or for the sake of not revealing too much I think it’s time we heard the jaws drop when they find out why …..very exciting

    No, but seriously, I would have been very thankful if someone reminded me whether there were some sort of ToJ references in the show or they were axed like most of the prophecies?

  119. Will Slots
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:20 am | Permalink

    About the Tyrell succesion.

    Garlen and Willias could still be Loras heir as cousins. It would be like the hundred years war between England (Lannister) and France (Tyrell), when the French king (Mace) died without a direct male heir, as Loras Tyrell would be in the Kingsguard.

    The English King (Joffrey’s child) claimed the crown of France as he was the son of Issabella of France (Margary).
    The French however claimed that by Salic Law, which disqualified the succession of males descended through female lines, Phillip VI (Willias) was king as his claim was by the male line, leading to the hundred years war.

    Tywin could be threatening with war to claim Highgarden if Olenna would not give in to let Lorass marry Cercei.

  120. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:31 am | Permalink

    TheBerylfly: No, but seriously, I would have been very thankful if someone reminded me whether there were some sort of ToJ references in the show or they were axed like most of the prophecies?

    There were no references to the ToJ on the show. We only know that Robert couldn’t save Lyanna – and that he thought Rhaegar raped her, blahblah. I’m not completely sure it was made clear Ned found her, but we know that he was the one who buried her, so it was at least implied, maybe.

  121. Bex
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:33 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I read his trip to DC wasn’t that great (bad plane ride, muddy mood).

    I was there and though he was gracious to all of the fans he seemed totally exhausted as the con wore on…

  122. vlad
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:35 am | Permalink

    Wow, this is great news for us readers, to have more of Willas and Garlan. First of all, Garlan is one of the best swordsmen in Westeros, nobody knows how good, but he is a lot better then Loras. Second, Willas is Olenna’s favorite son, that should say something about him. He was left behind in Highgarden when the rest of the family came to King’s Landing, and that resembles a lot the saying: “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell” :). Willas will have his own war or wars to fight in the next book :). Looking forward to it.

  123. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:41 am | Permalink

    boze: Which characters have interesting storylines (from a non-reader point of view) in AFFC/ADWD?

    Well, I liked AFFC and thought ADWD would have been alright if it had had more time to be edited thoroughly, so I might be the wrong person to ask, but I did enjoy Jaime, Brienne, Davos, Sam, Sansa, Arya, Asha, Bran and even Jon quite a bit. Cersei’s chapters I liked in the way you’re drawn to a trainwreck; Victarion’s chapters in ADWD are a great farce and Reek’s chapters are very tragic. I even enjoyed Quentyn, though that may have been because I already knew he was doomed. Dorne fell a bit flat to me, and some of the other, more minor narrators get on my nerves, and while I’m neither bothered by nor overly interested in Dany I don’t care much about Essos and wish she would get to Westeros already. And yes, I think all of these stories are worth telling. You can shorten them down, obviously, streamline, change stuff around. Non-readers thankfully won’t remember the hours spend on inspecting winter rations with the Night’s Watch, so I don’t know why they would be bothered by the way the books are written.

  124. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    Bex: I was there and though he was gracious to all of the fans he seemed totally exhausted as the con wore on…the panel was today (the last day) and I think his mood affected what he said, to be honest

    Poor guy. He’s also just not the youngest anymore, maybe the stress is just getting to him at the moment.

  125. Davy
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    Garlan & Willas are easy to fix. There cousins or uncles

  126. PattonFiend
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    I find it absolutely hilarious and very disturbing that the author of this article claims to know more about Martin’s story, books and schedule then the author of the actual books…
    Someone needs to go grab a HUGE sewing needle and pop your head before you float off into space…

  127. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 5:01 am | Permalink

    AFFC and ADWD have three majorly lamented storylines: Tyrion’s, Brienne’s and Daenerys’. As soon as those are trimmed, we get pretty amazing books: yes, not action-heavy, but full of intrigue and character development and important plot developments and fascinating moments
    Tyrion’s and Brienne’s could be just cut down in voulme\length\whatever cutting Penny altogether might also be benificial. The same should be done to Quentyn, btw
    Daenerys’ Meerenese storyline has a potential to be AMAZING. Show should just cut down on “Dany angsting” and “Dany wanting Daario’s D” aspects and instead move the focus to shadow war, Harpy mystery, etc
    Don’t forget that those are the books that gave as Jaime in Riverrun, Cersei’s descent, Cersei’s walk, Reek chapters, Theon coming back, Dany taming Drogon, the revelation of lord Wyman Manderly being the biggest badass of the serioes, the chapter of Quentyn’s death, etc
    Oh and Aegon

  128. LadySnark
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 5:03 am | Permalink

    As long as GRRm sticks to his ideas, whatever they are, for the way the story is meant to progress and not feel pressured or swayed by however the TV story unfolds I’ll be happy because the books are superior to the show, as enjoyable as the show may be. I guess anything else in the show as far as deviations I will work with. The only exception will be if they drop Euron and Victarion. Thats when I stop watching

  129. pntrlqst
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    I never understood what the problem was with Marillion losing his tongue. Now he can’t speak, which means he can’t defend himself when Littlefinger accuses him of killing Lysa. He still has his fingers. He’s still a musician.

  130. Jane
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    I don’t see Marillion being a problem at all. They could easily have a employee of Lysa hit on Sansa and then get framed for her murder. As long as she dies, does it really matter who takes the blame for it? For all we know, they could have the guards watch Sansa and Lysa struggle and Lysa trip and fall or Sansa accidentally push her and there would be no need for cover-ups. We have enough proof of LF loving Cat based on his obsession with Sansa, there’s no need for the “Only Cat” scene. That would just look cheesy and overly dramatic on screen IMO. Or, based on their added scenes of LF and Sansa, maybe they want to have LF actually fall in love with Sansa on the show and mentioning Cat would invalidate his “love”.

    I respect GRRM as an author, but he often likes to complain and blame others for his errors. He’s acting as if it’s D&D’s fault he can’t finish writing a damn book. If he knew Willas and Garlan would become crucial to the story line, why didn’t he just tell them to not make Loras the only male child of the family? D&D might have an idea about the ending, but I don’t think they know the details, so if it’s anyone’s fault, it’s GRRM’s. It’s easy to have a character appear and disappear in the books, but on a TV show it will confuse the audience. The cast is crowded as it is, adding more minor characters that add very little to the plot would just be a waste of money and time. D&D not only write, but also produce one of the biggest and most difficult shows to make, while GRRM only has to stay in front of a laptop and write and yet they still manage to be more productive than him. It might be simple for GRRM to write lines for 1000 characters, but on a TV show those lines have to be delivered by an actor and they don’t come cheap.

    We’ll just have to treat the books and the show as 2 separate entities from now on. There’s only so much you can invent before the audience asks for answers, and with them already taking material from the last 2 books there will be no story line left for some POV characters in S5. So I fully expect to see the story line moving forward on the show without GRRM’s books as a source. Or maybe he’s just messing with us and he’ll publish the 6th book right before the 5th season starts so he could benefit from an increase in sales. Based on his attitude, it’s a thing he’d do.

  131. JP Dayne
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:00 am | Permalink

    the cut of the tyrell brothers is just another thoughtless unreasonable change D&D have made.
    I’m not surprised.

  132. King DBC
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    Bottom line: GRRM shouldn’t be defending anything, he should be writing.

  133. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    Jane:
    while GRRM only has to stay in front of a laptop and write and yet they still manage to be more productive than him.

    I just love how people seem to believe that there are real jobs and then there is writing which obviously doesn’t count as work, doesn’t get you tired, can be done easily as soon as you start… lol doubtless GRRM churns out his masterpieces easily, he just needs to sit in front of the damn laptop and write!
    I agree that Martin is on a lazier side, but this is just ridiculous

    “Only Cat” too cheesy? Like stabbing a pregnant woman in a belly too in-your-face? It’s a wonderful, very cinematic dramatic moment which is many people’s favorite

    Willas and Garlan being important is kinda obvious in hindsight. If Mace and Marge go down and they seem to be heading in that direction and with Loras already out of comission, Willas and Garlan will be the leaders of the Reach for whatever plot-related events we are in

  134. Kael of the Lake
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    So, GrrM is annoyed because Garlan and Willas was left out while they were important. My first thought was “How does he know they were left out”? Why he’s not asking/telling D&D to put them back in? He is the man who invented Aegon 2 books before the end, can’t they invent some Tyrell brothers as well?

    It could also be a nice surprise having lady Olenna using it against Tywin’s argument. “We have a old rule in Highgarden…” or “In Tyrell family, uncles and cousins…” and rub it in Tywin’s face “Go on, have Loras”.

    Martin’s is not only more-than-a-councilor in this show, he also has writing and producing for TV experience, he should know better.

  135. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    Kael of the Lake:
    So, GrrM is annoyed because Garlan and Willas was left out while they were important. My first thought was “How does he know they were left out”? Why he’s not asking/telling D&D to put them back in? He is the man who invented Aegon 2 books before the end, can’t they invent some Tyrell brothers as well?

    It could also be a nice surprise having lady Olenna using it against Tywin’s argument. “We have a old rule in Highgarden…” or “In Tyrell family, uncles and cousins…” and rub it in Tywin’s face “Go on, have Loras”.

    Martin’s is not only more-than-a-councilor in this show, he also has writing and producing for TV experience, he should know better.

    Ultimately, D&D will do what they do. He might have told them, they thought they could play around it like they did with Marillion or Mago or Irri or whoever else (and maybe they can, who knows)
    They had already established that Margaery comes as a heir after Loras. That’s how Tywin won over Olenna in a very memorable scene. Maybe they can come up with some excuse later, maybe they will change the storyline around, who knows

  136. Kael of the Lake
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    Rygar: Fuck, I think I may have to join ‘Is Winter Coming’ now.

    No don’t. Anything but this.
    Not only they lack the military discipline of Westeros, rumors has it they discuss the books using …humor! Ultimate sacrilege, I know.
    I’ve also heard that most of them lurk in here, so if you hear a sinister laugh coming from around a dark corner of the site, it’s probably one of them.

    We better communicate through pms. (imagine that)

  137. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    DH87: I interpret his remarks as code for “I’ve argued against these changes—randomly turning Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Whatever, torturing Theon for eight episodes soAlfie can get a paycheck, shuffling the Tyrell family like a pack of cards—for three years and am pretty much over the whole thing. What’s mine is mine and what’s theirs is theirs.”

    which may be the case. But at the same time, we all know that the adaptation is going to be different from his books so why make a statement by saying that it’s different from his books if not to rant out the bitter taste?

  138. Clara
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Good call for cousins, I’d never considered that.
    I mean I don’t like it, I’d prefer if they had just included them but it’s too late for that.

    That might work, with a bit of story twisting as to how they could possibly inherit/ be important etc.

  139. sunspear
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    See, I’ve never really gotten that. Why would Olenna give the poison to someone sitting so far away from Joffrey? She couldn’t have counted on Joff walking over to confront Tyrion. No, I’ve always thought it was Margaery herself that poisoned Joff.

  140. David
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    My take on the Marillion thing is that maybe, like Mogo for Dany, he will eventually play a part in the Sansa/Vale future storyline. since he knows a lot about them he could be an ally for Sansa to take down Littlefinger or an ally to LF himself. We don’t know what GRRM is planning, decrease the role of a minor character could be nothing or it could be anything.

  141. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Garlan the Gallant,

    See, I’ve never really gotten that. Why would Olenna give the poison to someone sitting so far away from Joffrey? She couldn’t have counted on Joff walking over to confront Tyrion. No, I’ve always thought it was Margaery herself that poisoned Joff.

    I am just about to hit a PW on reread. I seem to remember that there are a few moments when Olenna/Margaery are in vicinity of the chalice, and one of those especially stood out – I have mentally gone “AH!” on my previous reread (yes, I am that hopeless). Time to check that!

  142. Veltigar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Easy way to work around the Willas Garlan thing: Just make them Bastard brothers to Loras and Margaery (or cousins as mentioned before). That way they can be older and have quite a good connection with their siblings (liberal Highgarden and shit like that), but they don’t inherit.

  143. TheBerylfly
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    I am more curious as to what would be used as a reason for Tyrells’ hatred of Martells, since Willas’ crippling is no longer present in the storyline. I thought they might just change it a bit to make his fall fatal (maybe his wounds festered afterwards or whatever), but if he is to show up afterwards…

  144. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    David:
    My take on the Marillion thing is that maybe, like Mogo for Dany, he will eventually play a part in the Sansa/Vale future storyline.since he knows a lot about them he could be an ally for Sansa to take down Littlefinger or an ally to LF himself. We don’t know what GRRM is planning, decrease the role of a minor character could be nothing or it could be anything.

    That still doesn’t mean he couldn’t be simply substituted with a new character. Same as Mago. I doubt anyone except us even remembers these guys showed up in Season 1 and had names.

  145. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    Kael of the Lake: No don’t. Anything but this.
    Not only they lack the military discipline of Westeros, rumors has it they discuss the books using …humor! Ultimate sacrilege, I know.
    I’ve also heard that most of them lurk in here, so if you hear a sinister laugh coming from around a dark corner of the site, it’s probably one of them.

    We better communicate through pms. (imagine that)

    I meant it with all seriousness while your response is dripping with sarcasm. Well maybe I rolled in some sarcasm and now have an odor about me. I have nothing against IWC or its supporters. Not sure why you state making fun of the books is sacrilege. Do you receive a lot of negative retorts to your jests?

  146. Kael of the Lake
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    No, not at all, on the contrary.
    But, for one, you refer to IWC like there’s something sinful or forbidden about it (maybe there is, who knows) and then you bring all seriousness about it. If you’re in for it, just do it. You really don’t have to reach a level when your only alternative is to go there. Jesus! What do you think it is?

    Most of all, I wasn’t answering to you post, I only used it to point something out. I do enjoy your criticism as it is and I usually agree with what you have to say, with sarcasm or not. Sarcasm helps in most cases especially when logic is absent or based in some sort of wiki.

    It wasn’t my intention to make you feel threatened by sarcasm. Sorry for that. And now I need a drink.

  147. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    Kael of the Lake,

    My only hesitation from joining IWC is the amount of personal info required to become a member. I am a pillar of my community and need to make sure that no one knows (apart from you fine people) of my fascination with schlongs.

  148. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    On topic. Who the fuck is Willas and Garlan again? Older brothers I get that but what is their significance other than just more cluster in GURMs fuck?

    He states that they will have a part to play later in the books but since he also states that this is now D&D’s story then why would it matter if they are part of the show in the future?

  149. Lady of Highgarden
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Huge Floppy Gut:
    Having Robb as a POV would of definetly made the red wedding scene that more dramatic because he would of been established as more of a main character.

    Catelyn was a main character. And she died, too! It’s not all about Robb.

    Sigh! No one appreciates Catelyn =(

  150. David
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    new characters? maybe but why Martin would be upset about it?

  151. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    To touch a upon the True Blood comparison. Alan Ball did not fail by deviating from the books after season one. Those books are vile and any deviation would be an improvement. Ball failed by making a mockery of his own story and reducing each episode to insubstantial filler with atrocious writing.

    Anyone who has seen Six Feet Under should know what Ball is capable of.

  152. Mallister65
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Laura,

    Because in the show, they’ve already said multiple times that Loras is the and heir to Highgarden; Willas and Garlan definitely aren’t younger than him.

  153. King Tommen
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Just as clarification since I’ve seen this mentioned a couple times erroneously, D&D and Cogman had their infamous sit down with Martin this past winter prior to Season 3 coming to air.

    This is where they grilled Martin on more intimate and detailed developments that were going to take place in future books which Martin had only provided them with outlines of in the past. They were well aware of the end game and major moments but they needed Martin to fill in the blanks on what happened with a number of plotlines and characters so they could incorporate this into future seasons.

    At that point, Season 3 was already in the can and in post-production. So anything we saw this past Season on TV was not made with any of this new knowledge. They specifically went to talk with him when they did because they were starting the outlines and writing for Season 4. So anything appearing on the show that would have to adjust or lead us down the proper path of the books would not be seen until Season 4.

    I imagine that the show will continue to make deviations, especially when it comes to combining characters and assigning some actions to different characters in order to simplify the story. And they will continue to try and find ways to keep characters in the story as opposed to sidelining them for long periods of time. But if the showrunners had any intention of branching out in totally new directions, they would never have even bothered to grill Martin so thoroughly on all of his plans for the story so they could ensure the writing for the 2nd half of ASoS and AFFC/ADwD stuff in S4 led organically into George’s unreleased future books.

    In terms of Martin characterizing that the books are his and the show is D&D’s, that has always been the case and is very consistent with what he has said since the start. I believe he says this to head off questions of canon since fans ask him a lot about whether a change in the show means that something specifically happens in the books.

    I honestly think that Martin has an unrealistic view of how he intends to incorporate all of his characters major and minor in the endgame of his series. I have no idea (unless he’s got a lot more than 2 books left to write) how he would ever bring back all of the numerous characters he has indicated “play a role” in the future. He seems to have a very hard time letting go of some of them which is why he gets irritated when the show kills the inconsequential ones off. He might take a little lesson from the show and streamline things a little bit in preparation of reaching his conclusion by cutting the fat a bit on many of these characters. We’re 5 books into a supposedly 7 book story. The world-building should be done with, let’s get everyone in position to end this thing.

  154. Garlan the Gallant
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    sunspear,

    But it was planned for Tyrion to be the scapegoat for the poisoning. Hence the dwarfs and Garlan encouraging Tyrion in his fight with Joffrey. It was very meticulously done. And Marge would never have done it, she was a centre of attention on the night

  155. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    Tyrion would have been suspect regardless.

  156. Ghost
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Maybe I missed something but where is it stated that GRRM never told D&D about Garlan amd Willas? There are a lot of people jumping on him saying that hree should have told them. How do we know that he didnt and that this wasnt their idea? Just by reading the books you kinda get the hint that Willas may come into play later, since hes talked up so much and with the big deal that Loras and Margaery make about the Iron Born about to attack the Reach.

  157. tysnow
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    I cannot fathom why posters keep bringing up that D&D can bring in Willis and Garlan in season 5 or as cousins. There are trying to reduce the number of roles, and altering the story to be more fluid as an adaption. There are fans that want every character from the books on screen and refuse to acknowledge changes are made and roles cut. Instead of harping how Willis and Garlan can somehow magically appear after the show states they don’t exist, focus instead on how this adaption might take the story with Loras and Marg.

  158. Rygar
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    In the wise words of Jack Gleeson, “I find the books difficult. There are way too many characters”. Less is more. Unless we are talking inches.

  159. Sor Duncan, the Tall
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    what if marillion plays ser Illin payne????

    jk XD

  160. Lina
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    The most exciting bit about this post, for me, is that we’ll learn more about Robert’s Rebellion. That backstory is so crucial to ASOIAF, but I also think it’s one of the most exciting and dramatic aspects of the world Martin has created.

    The Tyrell brothers having “roles to play” is interesting. After Sansa went with Littlefinger and the Tyrells shifted control in King’s Landing, I expected Willas to fall by the wayside and Garland to essentially be a generic knight at court. He’ll be Margaery’s champion?

    In any event, I think GRRM’s comment really hits the nail on the head: the books are his, the show belongs to D&D. I’m sure they’ll figure out how to adapt whatever has been affected by their changes. As long as they stay true to the hearts of the characters, I’m okay with it.

  161. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    boze:
    Dany’s storyline up to this point has had zero influence on the other storylines…. And that’s the very reason why people will start losing patience…

    I hope after the Meereen Battle, the story picks up the pace and escorts the surviving characters back to Westeros efficiently. However, given that scenario, I wonder how GRRM realistically plans to get Dany to Westeros? With or without her army? Victarion kidnapping or escorting/courting her? Dragons in the air or locked in a hold (that would be pathetic)? Regarding her Unsullied army, that voyage is daunting to ponder. Victarion lost half of his fleet just getting to Slaver’s Bay. We can only assume more will be lost on the way back (if there is a fleet left).

    As much as I love to ponder (and read theories regarding) the logistics of her Westeros return, as of this point, I am assuming that only a small portion of Dany’s assembled army will make it to Westeros. Many will be lost in the Meereen battle. The big question is…will she return as a defined leader of a huge invasion (probably not), as part of a Greyjoy or Martell campaign, as a trojan horse or as a captive?

    By default, when Dany (hopefully) gets to Westeros, storylines will mesh and momentum will build. The flurry of activity in the south and the craziness in the north will approach each other and that will be fun. I doubt the iron throne, as we know it presently, will survive.

    Come on, GRRM…focus on the prize…(please)…

  162. We do not Hodor
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Ghost: Just by reading the books you kinda get the hint that Willas may come into play later, since hes talked up so much and with the big deal that Loras and Margaery make about the Iron Born about to attack the Reach.

    A storyline which will most likely be cut and thertefore Garlan and Willas are not needed.

  163. Sean C.
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Will Slots:
    Tywin could be threatening with war to claim Highgarden if Olenna would not give in to let Lorass marry Cercei.

    That was clearly not what he was saying, and clearly not what Olenna heard.

    We have canonical examples of a man’s daughters coming before his brothers in the south (Lady Waynwood and Cersei).

  164. Al Swearengen
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Instead of Willas and Garlan we got Ros……….

  165. Chandler
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    a woman can only inherit their home if they are married hence why tywin wanted to marry tyrion and sansa so fast unless your from dorne they got differnt rules

  166. Nick Larter
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Buoyed by his success with Ser Robert Strong, Qyburnmakes a business proposition to Olenna and Mace to start regular production of these sorts of ‘human replicas’ and Garlan and Willas are the result. Delighted with the commercial prospects, the Tyrell elders found a corporation and change the family motto to ‘More Human Than Human’ and the rest, as they say, is history.

  167. utherwolf
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    If there is “a week or so left of filming”, why there are not any signs of new Greyjoy characters. They surely can’t film all the Iron Islands scenes in just a week. Where is Euron Crow’s Eye; where is Victarion, where is Aeron Damphair. HELLO!!!

  168. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    utherwolf,

    Well, first, it seems likely there is actually a month left of filming, not a week.

    RE the Greyjoys, at this point, I’m guessing they may not appear til next season.

  169. Cosca
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Does GRRM seriously think that the Marillion thing is a problem?

    LF: Guards, seize that man! He pushed my wife to her death!
    Extra No. 8346193: Who, me?
    LF: Yes you!
    Extra No. 8346193: Nooooooooooooooooooooo

    problem solved

  170. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Cosca,

    Lol! And so true.

  171. Jordan
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Cosca,

    LOL. That would be hilarious and would work pretty well.

    As I mentioned above, Marillon does have this role of sexually harassing Sansa as well as a relationship with Lysa, so I guess Martin’s point is that it doesn’t serve the story not to have those aspects.

  172. Anyss
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Off-Topic:
    Julian Glover hints more stuff about season 4 and talks about his deleted scene in season 3 in an interview with flicksandthecity.

  173. DH87
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Anyone who has seen Six Feet Under should know what Ball is capable of.

    AB should be glad his fans have such good memories. He’s been trading on Six Feet Under and American Beauty for seven years. Add in TB, the rejected All Signs of Death, the dead-before-birth Wichita, and the not-so-brilliant Banshee and you have a typical two for six batting average (among critics at least) for average successful showrunners.

    Then there’s AB’s upcoming feature film on Chippendales . . . Magic Mike, anyone?

  174. Sean C.
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Chandler:
    a woman can only inherit their home if they are married

    Um, no. Nowhere has that been stated, and the reverse has been shown. Tywin wants to marry Tyrion to Sansa so that they will be able to exercise control through her. Her claim exists independently of that event.

  175. Bethany
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    BrianAu,

    I am a book reader and I thought 4 & 5 were great. Some of Jaime and Brienne’s chapters in 4 could have stood some trimming, but I wouldn’t have cut anything major.

    However, I agree that most of 4 wouldn’t translate well to screen, and D&D are going to have to make Dany’s plotline way less subtle than it is in the books or else viewers are going to think nothing is happening.

  176. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    David:
    The Blue Grace,

    new characters? maybe but why Martin would be upset about it?

    GRRM is very protective of the world and the characters he created, and it seems to me he sometimes looses sight of the different challenges that a TV show faces. He had enough time to build up a specific character in the first book, and can afford to bring him back in a later novel as an antagonist to Dany or Sansa, or whoever, but the showrunners do not only have to deal with viewers possibly not remembering a minor role which turned up in the early run of the series, they also risk not getting the actor back when they need him again two to five years later. But to GRRM, it probably hurts the sense of unity he created, by having bit characters pop up again, and possibly do one very specific thing. Who knows, maybe Willas is needed to heroically defy the Ironborn and get his head caved in by Victarion, while Tyrion/Dany/Moqorro/whoever escapes, or something.

  177. patchface
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Add me to the list of people that loved AFFC and ADWD. I loved Brienne’s journey. I felt that the heart of a Song of ice and fire is in these little stories and chance encounters. Plus Brienne is the last true hero. How can you not love her?

    ADWD was a truly epic book. Dany’s story may have dragged a bit but the ending more than made up for it. Jon’s growth was brilliant. And lets not even start with Theon, the most brilliant of GRRM’s creations

  178. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Although it may be disappointing to some purists, Dontos only really needs to meet Sansa in the garden once, slip her a note from LF, then help her escape when the time is right during the PW. Who cares if he is remembered as the bumbling drunk from S2? Once he serves that purpose, he is entirely expendable….or could LF use him for nefarious purposes in the Vale?

    I agree with you as well. My point is that it’s going to take a shot of Dontos getting choked with wine to recall who the hell he is, and from that perspective, it makes sense that they’d eliminate 2 characters who have only appeared once in a while in the books, or in the case of Garlan Tyrell, not at all.

  179. Macharius
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Laura:
    Couldn’t they just introduce Willas and Garlan later on? I don’t really see why that would be a problem.

    They’ve already established that Loras is the sole heir to Highgarden.

  180. patchface
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Another thing I have to say: Any Game of Thrones fans that attack GRRM need to get a clue. Without GRRM, this tv show wouldn’t exist. All the wonderful quotes, all the amazing twists were written by GRRM, not by D&D or whatever they’re called.

  181. Eren
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    boze: Very stupid comparison.

    Dany’s storyline up to this point has had zero influence on the other storylines, unlike Robb’s and Joffrey’s. And that’s the very reason why people will start losing patience. Burning unknown slavers is fun and all, but when you don’t see what the point is in the big picture, it just tends to feel like filler at some point. And filler isn’t that much entertaining.

    Daenerys and Tyrion were the two most popular characters among book readers as well pre-ADWD.. And look at how much vitriol those two “storylines” received in ADWD.

    If we’re following your planning, they won’t meet until S7 (and even then, we’re not sure). Again, don’t you think that the TV viewers will start losing patience at some point (I know a lot of book readers did)?

    Which characters have interesting storylines (from a non-reader point of view) in AFFC/ADWD?

    Well I liked the greyjoy and the Martel were okay. It his opinion respect it.

  182. Paprikacrocante
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    I might be wrong, but I think that the whole Sansa thing that GRRM is talking about, is just him voicing his disappointment over how the show is portraying her. IMO.

  183. Kael of the Lake
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    You kiddin’? That’s your ticket there.

    On another note, I have a strong feeling that the rest of the Tyrrel family (or Greyjoys or Martells or Baratheons) are probably insignificant to the story of Ice and Fire. They mainly have their own intriguing side stories and adventures that comprise some seasoning for the main dish.
    Having red the books so far, I understand that the story could be the same (or better) without the 9/10 of characters that usually crowd the last pages. So Donal Noye, strong Belvas, Lem, Balon Swan and many many more are great characters but, not surprisingly, unimportant for the story to move forward.

    Or, as GrrM states, they become important. I can’t help but wonder how much important that important is when there’s an army with dragons close to your east gate and a horde of undead (and undead makers) coming down from the north.

    The problem is that they’re important just because they’re GrrM’s toys/children/creations and somebody else is messing with them. And I can understand that. Honestly. The only way though he can protect them is finishing the book. That way, if somebody else leave out all those important characters then it would be clearly their fault and people can recognize that. As for now it’s just “Let’s blame HBO for something”.

  184. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    boze: Which characters have interesting storylines (from a non-reader point of view) in AFFC/ADWD?

    wow, that’s a loaded question. I find the Cersei stuff fascinating, seeing her downfall. I think it’s out of this world, I can’t wait to see Lena Headey portray it, and given the enhanced role for Dormer, it’s going to be a joy, methinks. If they get a great actor for the High Septon? It’ll be fab.

    The Greyjoy stuff is awesome, honestly. Moqorro’s an absolute badass. I love that storyline.

    Dorne is really interesting though that, I suspect, will get downplayed a bit.

    Brienne is somewhat less interesting, but if it is consolidated, it’ll work fine. Just dump Nimble Dick and that pointless excursion to Cracklaw Point.

    And of course, everything Tyrion does is cool.

  185. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter:
    Buoyed by his success with Ser Robert Strong, Qyburnmakes a business proposition to Olenna and Mace to start regular production of these sorts of‘human replicas’ and Garlan and Willas are the result.Delighted with the commercial prospects,the Tyrell elders found a corporation and change the family motto to ‘More Human Than Human’ and the rest, as they say, is history.

    Bowing to you.

  186. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Paprikacrocante,

    I don’t see that at all. Are you sure that’s not what you hope he is saying? Since supposedly D&D have ruined Sansa, or at least that’s what I’ve read. If they only had the benefit of inner dialogue on the TV show then maybe it wouldn’t be so hard to portray such introverted characters as Sansa and Jon.

  187. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Paprikacrocante:
    I might be wrong, but I think that the whole Sansa thing that GRRM is talking about, is just him voicing his disappointment over how the show is portraying her. IMO.

    That seems to be putting words into his mouth; he was, apparently, talking specifically about the relationship between Lysa and Sansa (and technically, Marillion), nothing else.

  188. Adam Whitehead
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    From our perspective, we’re seeing all these sidebar projects (supplemental stories, GRRMarillions, etc) being touted, which in all logical prudence should only be produced if the series were complete, right?

    Unless he announced something different at Capclave, the GRRMarillion is specifically being left until after the books are done (now that he’s dumped that first off-cut from the world book in it, anyway).

    He is the man who invented Aegon 2 books before the end, can’t they invent some Tyrell brothers as well?

    Interesting.

    People were discussing Aegon’s arrival (fake or real) after A CLASH OF KINGS came out in 1998, since Dany’s dream sequence in the House of the Undying was pretty clear-cut. There was some resistance until ASoS and AFFC mentioned baby Aegon’s head being smashed in about fifty times each, in what appeared to be GRRM laying on the foreshadowing rather over-thickly. Given the number of people who think GRRM pulled Aegon out of thin air whilst writing ADWD, apparently it wasn’t thickly enough.

    Maybe I missed something but where is it stated that GRRM never told D&D about Garlan amd Willas?

    Nowhere, and I’m pretty certain he did. If he complained to them about Marillion and even Mago’s importance (even though Mago can be replaced by another random Dothraki without any problem whatsoever), I’m pretty sure he complained about Willas and Garlan.

  189. franbatista123
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Kael of the Lake,

    What? He did not invent Aegon , him appearing was set up since the first book. I agree that the Tyrells problem can be easily solved, though.

  190. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    franbatista123,

    Was it? In book 1 it appeared that Illyrio and Varys were helping Viserys and Dany. I never believed that Aegon was still alive(and still don’t) and I had no reason to believe there could be a fake posing as the real Aegon. Looking back at the HOTU visions, the mummer’s dragon now makes more sense, but I can’t recall anything in the first book that hinted at it.

  191. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    the only thing I can think of is Arya observing that Illyrio moves like a water dancer in the dungeons, and Tyrion seeing the statue of young Illyrio as a lithe and handsome light-haired bravo in his garden. And that only works if we speculate that Young Griff is really Illyrio’s son.

  192. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Aegon was probably referenced in Clash of Kings:

    “A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd…mother of dragons, slayer of lies”

  193. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    He’s likely the Mummer’s Dragon, but was he referenced in the first book, too?

  194. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    Not that I remember but I’m due a reread. At any rate, Clash of Kings was released in 1998 so Aegon has been foreshadowed for a very long time.

  195. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I re-read ‘A Clash Of Kings’ earlier this year for the first time post-ADWD and was amazed at some of the foreshadowing in that book. My favorite was Bran as a tree teaching Jon to warg. I never thought anything of it until reading ADWD.

  196. sunspear
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    But they couldn’t have counted on Joffrey walking over to Tyrion like that. It just makes more sense to have Marg drop the poison, to minimize the risk that she’ll drink the poison by accident.

  197. House Mormont
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Okay any problems arrising from this could potentially be solved by:

    Margaery persuading Tommen to name Willas (who could just be from a lesser branch of Tyrell or anything really) to be heir to highgarden with Loras in the KG. It would show her influence over Tommen and House Tyrell’s lust for power

    Also, in the case of the Greyjoys, I thought that Euron would be introduced through Asha’s quest around Westeros which obviously can’t lead to Theon/The Dreadfort because he doesn’t escape till after Ramsay’s wedding and she needs to be back before the Kingsmoot. And if he captured her he could take her back to the Iron Islands in time for Balon’s death. And this would stop the Iron Islands plot from being new to the viewer in Season 5 and Euron is always depicted as hot and charmingly evil so the casuals might like him

  198. House Mormont
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Also in response to aFfC/aDwD being boring (sorry I just finished reading them combined last month I haven’t had a chance to talk about it here) you should take into consideration that the show will only be 8 seasons and the material in the 7th book will probably all be important storylines coming together that will take up more than a season, so aDwD should be wrapped up in season 5.

    So from the middle of Season 4 to the end of Season 5 you’ll have:
    in every episode:
    Cersei in King’s Landing being eventful and crazy, Jon at the wall with his amazing story arc, and Dany in Meereen which when compressed into a season and ending in Daznak’s Pit will actually have lots of potential
    then:
    Tyrion’s story with Illyrio and then Aegon and then Jorah is great, it’s just until Penny comes in that in becomes incredibly dull
    Plus Arya’s storyline which is really enjoyable if not dramatic
    After most of Brienne’s storyline is cut you have Meribald’s Speech and then the big Stoneheart reveal
    Bran and Sansa will have great storylines after D&D flesh them out
    The Greyjoys have the Kingsmoot which is great then the Shield’s and then Victarion’s quest with Moqorro
    Sam has Aemon’s death and meeting Jaqen and Marwyn
    Davos has the Wyman Manderly (plus his Frey pie)
    Dorne will be dull at first but the Queenmaker plot will be good TV and the Fire and Blood speech makes the Martell’s as likable as the Starks

    there’s a lot of potential when it’s compressed into 1.5 seasons

  199. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Wow, I didn’t know that. Do you have the quote?

  200. BrianAu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,
    I respect your opinion. Do you think they also will make good television too? Would like to hear you thoughts on that too.

  201. BrianAu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Bethany,

    Agree with your spoiler plot points. I do wonder how Tyrion’s journey will work too… do you think that will be problematic as well?

  202. SmallSaul
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Watching Dino and Byrons new video now. My favorites recappers.

  203. BrianAu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Books 4 and 5:

    Problem Areas:
    1. Danerys Danerys Danerys…. just way too slow IMO for a TV audience.
    2. Tyrion also slow.
    3. Varys??? curious to see what they will do with him….

    No problems:
    1. John Snow
    2. Stannis
    3. Arya
    4. Cersei

  204. BrianAu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Like the points! Agree for most part as long as done in 1 1/2 seasons.

  205. House Mormont
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    BrianAu,

    Oh I forgot about Stannis! I hope they show him raising the mountain clans because those scenes could be as uplifting as Robb’s crowning/Dracarys
    And with Daenerys, her story drags because of all the internal struggle (which was the entire purpose of this book for her), especially when she has 3 chapters leading up to marrying Hizdahr… that really don’t matter plot wise
    But I think after the end of season 4 (where she decides to stay in Meereen and be a ruler) The shadow war ft. the murder of Stalwart Shield, introducing the Green Grace & the Shavepate, Quaithe’s prophecy, Hazzea’s murder and the chaining of her dragons, Yunkai, New Ghis and Quarthe marching on her, sex scenes with Daario, Quentyn’s proposal, marrying Hizdahr, successful peace, the poison attempt and Daznak’s pit, and Qwentyn’s death and the burning of Meereen can fill season 5 pretty well…

  206. House Mormont
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    And with Tyrion… I think I’m biased because I think after the way he thanked Jaime for saving his life at the end of aSoS… and then moaning about how he’s the victim all through aDwD, Tyrion’s character really soured for me, especially after a few more escapes of certain death and a plot line that goes nowhere

    but the dialogue/stay with Illyrio is good and if they keep Tyrion with Aegon and JonCon till he declares himself king to the Golden Company and decides to sale to Westoros… before meeting Moqorro in Volantis and being captured by slavers… where he meets Jorah his arc would seem a lot more streamlined.
    Aslong as they cut out Penny and his travelogue and most of his life as a slave I’m fine with it

  207. Jens
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    If anyone remembers, they did have Garlan and Willas biographies on the website for season 1, but later ignored them. All they have to do is reintroduce them in a non-canonical fashion. ie. Willas and Garlan couldboth be younger, OR they could be cousins (sons of Garth Tyrell) instead, which would explain that whole conversation about the “line dying out” that Tywin was babbling on about.

  208. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:

    You’re on a roll! Go, go, go! Keep it up! Although I must admit that I am disappointed that you didn’t explore the Stannis storyline more. Shame! :)

  209. Pussy Licker JonSnow
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    Also in response to aFfC/aDwD being boring (sorry I just finished reading them combined last month I haven’t had a chance to talk about it here) you should take into consideration that the show will only be 8 seasons and the material in the 7th book will probably all be important storylines coming together that will take up more than a season, so aDwD should be wrapped up in season 5.

    So from the middle of Season 4 to the end of Season 5 you’ll have:
    in every episode:
    Cersei in King’s Landing being eventful and crazy, Jon at the wall with his amazing story arc, and Dany in Meereen which when compressed into a season and ending in Daznak’s Pit will actually have lots of potential
    then:
    Tyrion’s story with Illyrio and then Aegon and then Jorah is great, it’s just until Penny comes in that in becomes incredibly dull
    Plus Arya’s storyline which is really enjoyable if not dramatic
    After most of Brienne’s storyline is cut you have Meribald’s Speech and then the big Stoneheart reveal
    Bran and Sansa will have great storylines after D&D flesh them out
    The Greyjoys have the Kingsmoot which is great then the Shield’s and then Victarion’s quest with Moqorro
    Sam has Aemon’s death and meeting Jaqen and Marwyn
    Davos has the Wyman Manderly (plus his Frey pie)
    Dorne will be dull at first but the Queenmaker plot will be good TV and the Fire and Blood speech makes the Martell’s as likable as the Starks

    there’s a lot of potential when it’s compressed into 1.5 seasons

    This. I don’t understand why so many people think AFFC/ADWD won’t translate well to TV

  210. BrianAu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Pussy Licker JonSnow,

    Key here is to do it as stated by the post in only one and half seasons. There is some great stuff in the two books so if you do condense it down to this it will be great. But if it is kept to something like two seasons per book viewers will leave IMO.

  211. BrianAu
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink
  212. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    BrianAu:
    PLJS,
    Key here is to do it as stated by the post in only one and half seasons. There is some great stuff in the two books so if you do condense it down to this it will be great.But if it is kept to something like two seasons per book viewers will leave IMO.

    Sounds about right. Given that the various storylines in books 4&5 are chronologically parallel and S4 will start to delve into those threads, many assume that by the middle of S6 (2016) GoT will be completely immersed in the TWoW spectrum, if not before. It is daunting to think that the S6 scriptwriters will be foraging into unknown territory if TWoW has not been published by Dec 2014, which is about when detailed S6 script work will start if the scripts are due by Mar 2015. Time is tight, folks!

  213. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 14, 2013 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    I would agree generally that books 4 & 5, while flawed and filled with long and boring sections separately, could make for good television when combined and condensed.

    However, there is the issue of number of storylines that are being crammed into one and a half seasons. Season One only had 3 or 4 major storylines headed by three main characters (Ned, Jon, Dany) with some characters taking a backseat (Theon, Robb) or sharing a storyline with other characters (Tyrion, Catelyn). Season 2 has like six separate storylines (Jon & Sam, Catelyn/Robb, Stannis, Dany, Theon/Bran, King’s Landing). Stays about the same for season 3. Books four and five split up a bunch of the characters that used to share plotlines (Tyrion and Cersei, Jaime and Brienne, Stannis and Davos, Jon and Sam), and then adds more characters that are either new or didn’t take up as much time as before (Yara, Victarion, Quentyn, Arianne) leading their own stories. Then there’s adding meat to characters that viewers (and readers) want to see that barely show up in the two books (I’m thinking mostly of Arya, but Sansa and Bran will probably require D&D to imagine whole new stories for them). A lot of different stories in this 1 1/2 of a season, starring many characters that viewers don’t care as much about. Think about the criticisms that people have had of 1, catching up with too many characters/plots in one episode and not really accomplishing anything in any of the stories, and 2, of Dany’s story 2nd season where D&D pretty much made up a story for someone who didn’t do much of anything in the 2nd book.

  214. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen:
    However, there is the issue of number of storylines that are being crammed into one and a half seasons.

    Intense and crazy. Although S4 should be stellar, I am actually looking forward to the challenging screen translation and (hopefully) well-calculated differences for books 4&5. Some of each of the many threads will need to be included/merged but not all (what to keep and toss has been discussed to death…it never gets old!). Hopefully, they will have the approval/budget to produce 59 min per episode (not including credits) instead of the average 53-54 min.

  215. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    Also in response to aFfC/aDwD being boring (sorry I just finished reading them combined last month I haven’t had a chance to talk about it here) you should take into consideration that the show will only be 8 seasons and the material in the 7th book will probably all be important storylines coming together that will take up more than a season, so aDwD should be wrapped up in season 5.

    there’s a lot of potential when it’s compressed into 1.5 seasons

    I’ve said it before, and I will say it again; the 8 season figure isn’t something set in stone. It is what they are aiming for, yes, but it is not a maximum. Also, ALL we know about ADoS is that it will be as long as ASoS/ADwD, we don’t know anything about the content. People often assume that it will be action packed like ASoS, but it could just as easily be like ADwD (which, don’t get me wrong, I very much enjoyed reading, but it does not have enough to support 2 seasons by itself).

    There is also no indication that any substantial amount of AFfC/ADwD will be covered in season 4 (aside from Brienne and possibly Bran). In fact it is looking increasingly likely that some elements (such as the Night’s Watch election) will be held back to season 5.

    D&D have also always said that, for the most part, each book will be one season. Following that rule, if AFfC/ADwD end mid way through season 6 we get: AFfC = 0.5 seasons AGoT, ACoK, ADoS, ADwD = 1 season, TWoW = 1.5 seasons, ASoS = 2 seasons.

    If, however, AFfC/ADwD are finished in season 5, we get: AFfC = 0.33 seasons, ADwD = 0.66 seasons, AGoT, ACoK = 1 season, TWoW, ADoS = 1.5 seasons, ASoS = 2 seasons. Finishing AFfC/ADwD in season 5 is far less consistent with the 1 book 1 season thing than finishing them part way through season 6 is.

    Overall, I agree with the idea of AFfC/ADwD taking 1.5 seasons, I just believe that it will be from season 5 to halfway through 6, with 5 ending at the same place as AFfC, not halfway through 4 to the end of 5. Ending it there provides natural conclusions for a lot of storylines, while ending at the same place as ADwD just leaves us with a bunch of cliffhangers. GRRM has said that the start of TWoW will provide the natural conclusions that should have ended ADwD, so having season 6 made up of the rest of ADwD and the start of TWoW makes more sense. That then leaves the entirety of season 7 for the rest of TWoW, and season 8 (and season 9, if needed) for ADoS.

  216. Pussy Licker JonSnow
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    BrianAu,

    Agreed 100%. Stretching out Feast and Dance into two full seasons would be a bad idea

  217. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Starting in 5, ending halfway through 6? Interesting. When would you start getting into Arya’s “Feast” stuff? At the beginning of season 5? Do you think her time with the Hound should take up all of fourth season? And even if it did, do you think that her Feast substance (and I guess her one or two chapters in Dance) would take 1.5 seasons? Dany is the other character I worry about. When do you have her start ruling her slave city? Should season 4 really be a repeat of season 3, continuing her campaign against slavery? My estimations are similar to yours, but I think I would start a year earlier, especially for Arya.

    What makes Feast/Dance such a quagmire to adapt is not so much that they are both long, or they have some boring sections (that I trust D&D to cut), or that they are two books that cover the same time period. It’s that some characters don’t have much material in between where Season 3 left them and where TWoW starts. It’s that some of those same characters are major ones, and fan-favorites. It’s the number of storylines, which I commented on earlier.

    Most importantly, it’s slow, uneventful buildup to climaxes and conclusions that haven’t been published yet. I quote Benioff: “Season 5 gives me nightmares.”

  218. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Also, I think 8 seasons is more established than you think. How many shows have lasted that long, or longer? And what do you imagine they’ll do about the younger actors?

    When are the actors contracts up? Dinklege will ask for (and deserves) a lot of money, and so will others. They may want to avoid that as well.

  219. Arya Dunyett
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    Frankly, I don’t believe any of us knows what we’re talking about. This forum thrives on fruitless speculation. But what else is there to do between books and seasons?

    Among other mysteries, I can hardly wait to find out how Dany trains her dragons. That will be EPIC! on the page or the small screen.

  220. boze
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    My question was “Which characters have interesting storylines (from a non-reader point of view) in AFFC/ADWD?”.. and you answer this by listing all the chapters that you enjoyed reading?

    I’m sorry, but I seriously don’t care about that. What I care about is how well those storylines are going to translate to screen.

    Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed AFFC/ADWD.. but most of the fun came from the possibility to follow the inner thoughts of the characters (Jaime, Cersei, Jon, Tyrion..)… and you can’t really have that on TV, can you?

  221. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:07 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,
    The other quote that I didn’t bother mentioning is when D&D said that “from now on there won’t be a clear cutoff point between books”. In AFfC/ADwD some storylines just end halfway-two thirds of the way through Dance (eg Bran, Davos, Sansa), so when I say “half way through season 6″, what I really mean is “half way through season 6 on average”. Some storylines (Davos, Bran, Sansa) would almost certainly finish their AFfC/ADwD storylines in season 5, while others have enough material to last them until the end of season 6 (Meereen (the city, not Daenerys) and Jon (assuming the election is pushed back to season 5, and the Janos scheming is expanded on, both of which look very likely)).

    Arya is a weird one because she is so isolated from everyone else. Also, as presented into the books. she only has enough material to last to the end of season 5 or early season 6, but GRRM said that he could write a whole spinoff book of her adventures in Braavos, so they could also easily add filler material supplied GRRM to make her storyline more interesting and stop it from getting too far ahead. As for season 4, we know from leaks from the set that Arya and the Hound get all the way to the Gates of the Moon, so it seems that extra stuff will be added to her storyline with Sandor. I can see her storyline ending with her on the ship seeing Braavos in the distance.

    When it comes to Daenerys, I think the way they will spin it is to have a situation that starts off initially looking similar to Yunkai, but that quickly becomes very different (ie where the Yunkish treated with her looking for peace, the Meereenese will go in expecting it to come to the battle), and just make Meereen more of a challenge for her in general to start shattering the ‘golden girl’ image that a lot of viewers have of her. They also have the tensions with Jorah to introduce and build up throughout the season. Also, as I’ve said many times, I believe that Daenerys’ pre-Meereenese knot stuff could translate brilliant to the tv, and even be greatly superior to the books, if they simply shift the focus away from Daario and onto the shadow war, the dragons and the siege.

    Overall, Feast and Dance could translate brilliantly to screen and even be better than the books. All they need to do, for characters such as Daenerys, Cersei and Brienne is to shift the focus of the stories from the people to the events. Also, by shifting the focus, they can get the climaxes and conclusions around the same time the Feast ends, which would conclude season 5.

    As for contracts; unless I am much mistaken 6 year contracts are the industry standard. So as far as that concerns it wouldn’t matter whether they want to do 7, 8 or 9 seasons as a lot of the core actors would need contract renewals. It is a problem they will have to face regardless of the content of the last two books or how they choose to adapt Feast and Dance. And from what I can tell, the vast majority of the actors (Dinklege included) seem to be very dedicated to the show. If they are that far through it I don’t see them dropping out suddenly. And the children aren’t too much of a problem, all they need to do is be vague about the passage of time or have time pass faster than it does in the books. I doubt that they are ever going to dump Maisie, Sophie or Isaac just because they have gotten older.

    As for the length, it isn’t unheard of for a subscription drama to pass 6 seasons (True Blood and Dexter), and a HBO executive came out and said (in response to the 7/8 season stuff, I believe), that they will continue funding the show as long as there is story to tell. Just because HBO hasn’t made a 7 or 8 season show before doesn’t mean they never will. There is a first for everything.

  222. Bard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen:
    Ser Tahu,

    Also, I think 8 seasons is more established than you think. How many shows have lasted that long, or longer? And what do you imagine they’ll do about the younger actors?

    When are the actors contracts up? Dinklege will ask for (and deserves) a lot of money, and so will others. They may want to avoid that as well.

    The contracts end after season 6 (2016). Which is probably also the minimum running time of the show. Season 4 will be most certainly a huge success, which means we will definetely get a fifth season. Season 5 could be a disappointment to many casual viewers, because the source material is so hard to adapt (“Season 5 gives me nightmares”). But I don’t doubt that the show will be renewed for a sixth season after that, if GRRM has published TWoW until late 2015/early 2016 (which he probably will, otherwise they could go alone from that point on).

    Should season 6 also disappoint and result in a declining viewership , well…the show isn’t getting any cheaper, because they have to renew the contracts and besides that it’s rather unlikely that GRRM is able to finish ADOS until early 2017 (because that’s the year they have to write and film season 8). HBO could cancel the show in 2016, if things go very wrong.

    Let’s hope season 5 and 6 can somehow live up to their predecessors. But I somehow doubt it if they stretch ADFFC/ADWD over a too long period of time. At least some storylines have to culminate at the end of Season 5, the others maybe at halftime during season 6, as Ser Tahu wrote.

  223. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    boze:
    The Blue Grace,

    My question was “Which characters have interesting storylines (from a non-reader point of view) in AFFC/ADWD?”.. and you answer this by listing all the chapters that you enjoyed reading?

    I’m sorry, but I seriously don’t care about that. What I care about is how well those storylines are going to translate to screen.

    Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed AFFC/ADWD.. but most of the fun came from the possibility to follow the inner thoughts of the characters (Jaime, Cersei, Jon, Tyrion..)… and you can’t really have that on TV, can you?

    boze, I read what you said, don’t worry. It amused me a bit, because how could a non-reader say how the story would translate to the screen? But my answer was sincere – I think it is possible to translate the stories to the screen, if you streamline, edit and expand some stuff. A lot of the stories might even do better on screen – if they emphasize the intrigue in Dany’s and Jon’s storylines, if they focus Brienne’s search by having her and Pod almost get to Sansa, only to be sidetracked by the conflicts between the BWB, the Lannisters and the rampaging remains of the Mountain’s Men, all this stuff can be pretty rivetting to watch, I’d imagine. What you mostly have to create is interaction for most of the more introspective characters. People like Brienne, Jon and Sansa need counterparts, that way they cannot be quiet.

  224. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    Arya Dunyett:
    Frankly, I don’t believe any of us knows what we’re talking about. This forum thrives on fruitless speculation. But what else is there to do between books and seasons?

    Among other mysteries, I can hardly wait to find out how Dany trains her dragons. That will be EPIC! on the page or the small screen.

    lol, Arya – you just described the main fuel for the internet. But yes. Fruitless speculation is one of the staples of the geeky fan existence. It makes us all armchair detectives in a way, no?

    The main objective is not to take anything too seriously. And to always bring a towel.

  225. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:43 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Okay. Well, let’s hope they give them their money then. I think I largely agree with you, and I am almost positive show version of Feast/Dance would be better than the book version, particularly concerning Dany. I’m still probably more concerned about the longevity of the show, since after season 4 their best days will be behind them. I think it’s partly a natural thing that, when the novelty of a show wears off, or when there’s filler when conclusion would be more satisfying, viewers drop. I think that is very relevant to ASoIF.

    I’m curious, what do you think would be the climax of Season 5? I’m somewhat stumped, mostly because of my criticism of the last two books generally that I noted above, that they are filled with buildup to climaxes that haven’t occurred.

  226. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    I have to say that I think AFFC and ADWD will be problematic on screen, even if condensed into 1.5 seasons (which I think is the best option). And my reason for saying that is because the big majority of my show-only friends really don’t know or care about some of the more minor characters, and yet it is these characters that form a key part of those books.

    The solution has to be to condense minor character roles where possible, skipping them when non-essential and transferring more essential roles to major characters where possible. Furthermore, they’ve got to cut down on the switching between various locations to ensure forward momentum.

    Example of characters, locations and plotlines that can be cut include Quentyn, Dorne, and the bulk of Brienne’s adventures. And that’s not to say I didn’t find these stories interesting in the book but tv is a very different medium from books and I am way more invested in the characters of A Song of Ice and Fire than my friends are.

    In terms of ending Season 5, it really depends on how much is covered in Season 4. If possible, having one battle from tWoW would be great but is probably unlikely. Instead, I think Dany riding Drogon and Jon Snow getting betrayed will have to do. Game of Thrones the tv series, which will have had 4 great seasons of tv, can probably take one mediocre / merely ‘good’ season of television if it sets up for a great Season 6. But making it two mediocre seasons would be very bad – and a lot depends on what GRRM has in store for us in (tWoW) Season 6.

    (It’s going to be really weird when the tv series overtakes the books…)

  227. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Do you reckon they could split the final season of Game of Thrones in two, like Breaking Bad? So instead of having Seasons 7 and 8 they could have Season 7 part 1 and Season 7 part 2.

    Also, as far as I remember, Peter Dinklage has a seven year contract. So that could work out nicely.

  228. Roekest
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    “There will be no prequels written but we will learn more about Robert’s Rebellion in upcoming books.”

    Of course we will! We have to see that Jon Snow is really Lyanna and Rhaegar’s kid.

  229. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,
    I wouldn’t say that their best days will be behind them, necessarily. I just think that season 5 won’t be as good as 4. Season 6, assuming it has the second half of ADwD and the first section of TWoW, should be brilliant enough to match season 3.

    As for the climax of season 5: I have thought a lot about this, and I think that overall the episode won’t be centred around a single climactic moment, but around several smaller climactic moments. Just because it doesn’t have an epic scene to match the Red Wedding or Blackwater doesn’t mean it can’t be a great episode. As for what those smaller climaxes would be, I would say the climaxes of AFfC would work quite well: Brienne vs Rorge and Cersei being arrested by the faith. Some ADwD events that could also work well in the episode would be Jon beheading Janos if they decide to expand upon their scheming on the show (which seems like a real possibility) and the Davos-Skagos reveal.

    The reason I think that ending season 5 roughly where AFfC ends would work so well is because it would provide a nice balance between conclusions and set up for the next season. Aside from the final season, finales have to have a balance of conclusions to satisfy the viewer and cliffhangers/set up to keep the watching in the next season. Ending it with AFfC gives all of the conclusions that the book had, while the ADwD storylines would provide the set ups and cliffhangers to keep people watching. By ending season 5 where ADwD ends you are left with nothing but cliffhangers, which would not satisfy the viewer and weaken season 5 as a whole.

  230. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,
    I am very strongly of the opinion that, despite the fact he is a new character, Quentyn’s storyline would make extremely compelling television: The awkward yet dedicated guy trying to win the pretty girl and please his father, yet at the same time fearing that he isn’t good enough for either. He is extremely relatable and pretty much made for television :P.

    Also, I honestly believe that although season 5 would admittedly be a mediocre season, if the second half of ADwD is in season 6 as well as the start of TWoW season 6 would be a brilliant season of television, on par with 1 and 3 (but not 4). We would have Winterfell, Stannis vs the Boltons, Hardhome and Jon’s betrayal in the North as well as the likely return of Rickon. Cersei’s walk, the return of Varys, and likely the trials of Cersei and Margaery in King’s Landing. Aegon landing and his initial conquests in the Stormlands, as well as his taking of Storm’s End. The Meereenese knot and the fighting pit, then Daenerys among the Dothraki (see note below) and the Barristan/Quentyn plots in Essos (and possibly the Battle of Meereen, but I think it likely that it would be held back to the start of season 7, simply because they don’thave the budget for two huge battles in one season). And that’s just the major storylines.

    Note about Daenerys: My theory is that her last ADwD chapters and first few TWoW chapters happen, chronologically, at the same time as Barristan’s ADwD chapters, and that she will return towards the end of, or just after, the battle, and that she will be on her way to Westeros not long after that. And even if my theory is wrong, if there was any part of Daenerys’ storyline that would be easy to bring forward it would be that: have all of her Daenerys stuff happen while the Barristan and Quentyn plots unfold instead of having her disappear for a few episodes.

    Regarding contracts: You may be right about Peter Dinklage, but I was under the impression that splitting a season to extend an actors contract by a technicality is considered to be a bit of a dick move in the television industry, so that situation wouldn’t be ideal.

    On the topic of the books: Assuming that ADoS doesn’t feature in season 7 (ie season 7 is only TWoW, with ADoS being covered in season 8 (and the possible season 9)), I believe it is still entirely possible for GRRM to finish the books first. The delays with AFfC were because he spent 2 years writing the 5 year gap, realised it wouldn’t work then had to start again from scratch. As for ADwD it was because he had to rewrite a lot of the stuff he had already written, then he had a lot of problems working out the Meereenese knot. It does not seem likely that similar problems would occur with TWoW, and now that he has all of his side projects off of his plate I think that it is reasonable to expect that book to be completed in the last third of 2014, and released either in the lead up to Christmas 2014 or to coincide with season 5 in 2015. While writing he generally writes one character at a time, and he has said that he has been writing some storylines so far that he has already done ADoS material for them, so after TWoW is done he should already have a decent amount finished for the final book. If he doesn’t go on a massive book tour after TWoW I think he should then be able to complete ADoS by mid-late 2017. In that case it could be released between season 7 (TWoW) and 8 (ADoS). If he ends up needing a book 8 we are completely screwed though :P.

  231. Sami
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    I have to ask the question, and I slap me please someone if I am blind…. but so far I have seen no mention of a confirmed season 5! There surely be one right?!

  232. Cosca
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    I’m still hoping D&D go the brutal route with FfC + DwD. Cut as much as possible and stuff it into one season I say, get one solid season out of all that filler.

    Cut Quentyn, or have him just turn up in Mereen to die in a couple of scenes.
    Cut Brienne’s travels down to a few scenes (NO NIMBLE DICK)
    Cut Dorne, they can be introduced when they become relevant.
    Dany flies away on Drogon in Episode 7. Battle of Mereen episode 9.
    Tyrion meets Illyrio in Episode 1, hangs around then leaves episode 2. Travels with Aegon until Episode 5. Cut Penny. Have him arrive with Jorah in Mereen in Episode 7.
    Jon’s arc compressed, get’s stabbed episode 9 or 10.
    Theon, Stannis stay the same. Cliffhanger of Roose vs Stannis to be resolved next season.
    Arya much the same.
    Maybe push some WoW forward for Sansa to give her a few more scenes, maybe that big “controversial chapter” I’ve heard things about, to act as an end to her arc for the season.
    Davos doesn’t go to Sisters. Goes straight to Merman’s court.
    Greyjoy’s basically stay the same. Cut Aeron if possible.
    Bran can become a tree at the same pace as in DwD I guess.

  233. Alvis
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Sami,
    Well, they confirmed s4 near the airing of s3 (can’t remeber if it was before or after) so…

  234. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    Family, Duty, Hodor,
    I am very strongly of the opinion that, despite the fact he is a new character, Quentyn’s storyline would make extremely compelling television: The awkward yet dedicated guy trying to win the pretty girl and please his father, yet at the same time fearing that he isn’t good enough for either. He is extremely relatable and pretty much made for television :P.

    I’ve often thought that Quentyn’s ADwD/S5 storyline could be handled much like the RV’s storyline in ASoS/S4. He’s a tragic one-season character. He has a decent background and buildup, has several interesting “expositional” interactions with other major characters, then suffers a shocking and sudden demise. I agree…that would be very good television!

  235. Rygar
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I’ve often thought that Quentyn’s ADwD/S5 storyline could be handled much like the RV’s storyline in ASoS/S4. He’s a tragic one-season character. He has a decent background and buildup, has several interesting “expositional” interactions with other major characters, then suffers a shocking and sudden demise. I agree…that would be very good television!

    I am concerned with a formula if they go that route. Similar to what the Sopranos did with Richie, Ralph, and Cousin Tony’s (Steve Buscemi)characters. New blood to be used as fodder.

    Can’t write more for fear of spoilers.

  236. JAM
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    TheBerylfly,

    Jojen Reed: “When I told my father about your father, for the first time in my life, I saw him cry.”

    Bran Stark: “Your father is Howland Reed. He saved my father’s life during the rebellion.”

    S3:E2 (Dark Wings, Dark Words)

    Jojen Reed: “Your father told you about the rebellion? Mine never did.”

    — Jojen Reed and Bran Stark talk about their fathers.

  237. boze
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    Cosca,

    Nice. :)

  238. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: I am concerned with a formula if they go that route. Similar to what the Sopranos did with Richie, Ralph, and Cousin Tony’s (Steve Buscemi)characters. New blood to be used as fodder.

    Can’t write more for fear of spoilers.

    Yeah, I can’t disagree there. Quentyn’s only real purpose would be for exposition and Dorne-building. After the RV’s “fodder” season, folks may be wary of the formula. But in a way, GRRM employs that tactic often in the books…certain passive characters come into focus for a while before being violently cast back into the darkness…like so many other supporting 1-2 season characters in GoT. If Willas & Garlan are to serve more prominent roles, I bet they will have a similar fate. Furthermore, what will become of Victarion, Aeron, fAegon, Connington, Arienne, Doran, Hotah, etc.? Their fate could reside in darkness as well.

    But Quentyn’s tale is one of blind pride and should be told. That final barbeque scene with a dragon other than Drogon would be a great “Fuck you!” statement to make and demonstrate the true chaos awaiting those that think they are in control.

  239. Nezzer
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Just saw this picture on my Facebook: https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/946389_457251891060672_1207502730_n.jpg

    The poster claims it’s from season 4. Does anyone know if that’s true? Yara/Asha apparently returns to Pyke (the place looks a lot like the Ironborn docks), which might hint at the possibility of the Kingsmoot happening next season already if the pic is legit.

  240. Pau
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Bard: The contracts end after season 6 (2016). Which is probably also the minimum running time of the show. Season 4 will be most certainly a huge success, which means we will definetely get a fifth season. Season 5 could be a disappointment to many casual viewers, because the source material is so hard to adapt (“Season 5 gives me nightmares”). But I don’t doubt that the show will be renewed for a sixth season after that, if GRRM has published TWoW until late 2015/early 2016 (which he probably will, otherwise they could go alone from that point on).

    Should season 6 also disappoint and result in a declining viewership , well…the show isn’t getting any cheaper, because they have to renew the contracts and besides that it’s rather unlikely that GRRM is able to finish ADOS until early 2017 (because that’s the year they have to write and film season 8). HBO could cancel the show in 2016, if things go very wrong.

    Let’s hope season 5 and 6 can somehow live up to their predecessors. But I somehow doubt it if they stretch ADFFC/ADWD over a too long period of time. At least some storylines have to culminate at the end of Season 5, the others maybe at halftime during season 6, as Ser Tahu wrote.

    Boarwald Empire is getting 1.9 (0.7 demo’s) and getting renewed, and is not a cheap show..

    So stop crying already all of you naysayers(” books 4 and 5 are bad, season 5 of the show is gonna suck, buaaaahhh”) , there’s NO FUCKING WAY GoT is getting cancelled before it reaches it’s end, wich will be 8/9 seasons, and I’m pretty sure HBO would try and do 10 if they could!

    GoT is HBO’s Walking Dead…have you seen how AMC is fucking dominating sunday nights?? AMC won every hour on cable on Sunday between 1 pm and midnight!! And mostly thanks to TWD!!

    You guys think HBO is making us a favour by renewing GoT?? Fuck that, GoT is making HBO a favour, so stop thinking as beggars and start thinking as kings…

  241. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    JAM,

    Would the story of the tournament at Harrenhal during the year of the false Spring be considered part of the rebellion? Because I want to see a version of that told in the show at some point. Surely they can find 2 or 3 minutes at some point to tell it.

  242. Pau Soriano
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Nezzer:
    Just saw this picture on my Facebook: https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/946389_457251891060672_1207502730_n.jpg

    The poster claims it’s from season 4. Does anyone know if that’s true? Yara/Asha apparently returns to Pyke (the place looks a lot like the Ironborn docks), which might hint at the possibility of the Kingsmoot happening next season already if the pic is legit.

    What a horrible, horrible miscast Yara was…so this chick is supposed to be a fearsome warrior?? My mum looks fitter than her and she’s 66….(Doesn’t look legit btw but I’m no expert)

  243. David Jones
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    pntrlqst,

    I agree LF cuts his tounge off in the books anyway.

  244. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Roekest:
    “There will be no prequels written but we will learn more about Robert’s Rebellion in upcoming books.”
    Of course we will! We have to see that Jon Snow is really Lyanna and Rhaegar’s kid.

    Although it’s been speculated and argued to death, the details/questions behind R+L=J and ToJ truly fascinate me, such as:
    1) Did NS & HR help L give birth? Or had she given given birth already?
    2) Did L die during childbirth? Did she bleed out as a result of childbirth or was she bleeding as a result of prior violence? Did NS & HR perform a Caesarean after her death?
    3) Was L caring for an infant (not hers) because another had died?
    4) What injury or disease did HR suffer or contract during that journey? How did his affliction lead to his children’s talents (if related)?
    5) Will we ever get a scene with a dying HR to reveal these secrets?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah….go to Westeros and contribute to the madness…but it is easy to get lost in the mystery…and GRRM brought it up again.

  245. Bittersteel
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    The cutting of Garlan never made sense to me, they could have went the route of Beric in S1 and cast an extra till the role was expanded. Things like this make me a little wary of background characters that we know play large roles moving forward that haven’t been mentioned at all.

  246. House Mormont
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    I think your idea of the end of aDwD and the “during the dance” section of tWoW being the start of season 6 is great, I never considered that

    Especially since that definitely includes The Battle of Ice, as that happens chronologically before the Pink Letter, and possibly Dany’s Dothraki chapters if she’s to return at the end of the Battle of Meereen. And probably Davos (ft Skagos), Bran and Sansa as they weren’t in the second half of Dance.

    Also could I have a link/quote of where he said he’s wrote aDoS material for some characters? That’s really exciting

    Cosca,

    Agree 100% with all of that, that’s what I thought when I was reading the books

  247. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Cosca,
    Doing so would guarantee that they overtake GRRM. And I disagree with a lot of your points. The only reason that some book readers view Quentyn and the Dornish plots to be irrelevant is because we know that the plots fails. Viewers won’t know that. If you don’t know how it ends, a plot to marry Daenerys, bring her to Westeros AND give her an army/support in Westeros will seem very relevant. Similarly , a plot to crown Myrcella and oppose the iron throne and Tommen/Cersei will seem very relevant. And most importantly, they ADD DRAMA, which is what really matters. I’m actually hoping that they start Quentyn’s journey earlier and show him getting his mission from Doran in Dorne. They could also make his mission vague so viewers believe Arianne and think he is trying to usurp her, making his arrival in Meereen a big reveal to coincide with the “Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood.” speech.

    I do agree with cutting Penny, Nimble Dick and the Three Sisters though.

    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Rygar,
    I think the difference between Quentyn and Oberyn, though, is that if ADwD is finished in S6 he would live through S5, making viewers think he could be around to stay.

    Pau,
    ALL OF THIS. Even IF Game of Thrones suffers a decline in ratings between season 5 and 6, it would still be HBO’s highest rated show. AND HBO doesn’t care about ratings, they care about subscriptions and DVD sales, in which Game of Thrones is by far their best show. HBO has already said they will keep making the show as long as there is story to tell, and I am fairly sure they are aware of AFfC/ADwD. We have nothing to fear, except the show overtaking GRRM :P.

    Also, a bad season has never killed a good show. Sons of Anarchy had one. Breaking Bad had one. True Blood had three. Boardwalk Empire had 3. Dexter had four. And if Treme can get 4 seasons, GoT will never be cancelled.

    House Mormont,
    I admittedly don’t have a quote for that. A few people said it on Westeros.org, so I just took their word for it :P.

  248. Hat Girl!
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    OMG! The Butterfly effect and Marillion rant and ‘the books are his and the show’s are theirs’ were the answers to the question I ASKED when I was there! Woohoo!

    Also, he called me Hat Girl when I raised my hand to ask the question!

  249. House Mormont
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    I hope it’s true! But at the Con the article talks about, someone in the audience asked “What about the Wall?” and he replied that it still required lots of work, along with many others… or something along those lines

    That must either mean that he hasn’t written the start for a lot of characters’ chapters yet, or that he just needs to edit it a lot, which is plausible as the chapters he read were edited from their previous versions. So depending on which one you believe, he’s either very far from finishing or making good progress.

  250. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: Also, a bad season has never killed a good show. Sons of Anarchy had one. Breaking Bad had one. True Blood had three. Boardwalk Empire had 3. Dexter had four. And if Treme can get 4 seasons, GoT will never be cancelled.

    Never say never when you’re talking HBO. HBO said True Blood wouldn’t be cancelled as long as there was a story to tell on July 15, 2013 and cancelled it September 3. Scuttlebutt was that there were contract disputes, but a highly negative reaction to the Season 6 finale —a single episode—put the nail in the coffin.

    Treme was renewed for two reasons: HBO’s expressed commitment to what it considers under-represented segments of U.S. society and its low, low cost. To my knowledge, HBO has no commitment to under-represented White Walkers/wargs/kings of fantasy realms, and GOT costs a king’s ransom to produce.

    I just cancelled Showtime on DirecTV last week and the customer service rep asked me four questions just on what I didn’t like (show by specific show) on Showtime and another four questions on why I was keeping Starz (show by specific show). I doubt he did so because he liked the sound of my voice: that’s the kind of data mining that is funneled back to the premium channels.

    The primary reason for cancelling a premium channel in the U.S. is cost, but I believe the second is the quality of the programming. GOT will be “renewed” so long as when DirecTV asks why you’re cancelling HBO you don’t answer the way I did about Homeland—that I don’t care enough about the show any more to keep Showtime.

  251. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Arya Dunyett: Frankly, I don’t believe any of us knows what we’re talking about. This forum thrives on fruitless speculation.

    It isn’t fruitless speculation to see a link between the fact that SAG contracts for U.S. TV series’ leads are seven years long and that most successful series end at seven seasons.

  252. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    DH87,
    But True Blood was never particularly good in the first place. Game of Thrones is universally acclaimed and a cultural phenomenon. I can’t picture abandoning HBO because of it in great numbers. Also even though it is cancelled TB is still being given a 7th season to reach a natural conclusion. I am 100% certain that GoT will reach its natural conclusion.

  253. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    the problem about Quentyn and Arianne is not that their plots suck. The problem is that they will be introduced in Season 5 at the earliest, and people won’t care about them taking screentime from characters they already know and like. It was the same in the books. And that will only get worse once people realize investing in Quentyn is pointless. Which they will realize early, since it’s a trick that GRRM/the show will have played three times by that point.

    As for Penny: You cannot really cut her, since she’s basically Tyrion’s redemption personified. Not to mention another potential at showing a positive, complex character who is also a little person.

  254. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I’m pretty sure HBO would have been significantly less willing to cancel True Blood if Alan Ball was still helming it, and the show had turned pretty much to schlock while he was still on board.

  255. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor: Also, as far as I remember, Peter Dinklage has a seven year contract. So that could work out nicely.

    There may be no actual difference between a “seven year contract” and “six seasons,” since the first term is calendar-related and the second is episode-related. You can be under contract for months—for costuming, fitness training, dialogue coaching, skill acquisition, etc.—prior to filming, and it can take several months after filming is completed for all episodes to air. Your actors can be long gone contractually once filming is completed, months before the season finale airs.

  256. Rygar
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Boardwalk gets better each season. Not sure which season you think was the best, buy so far S1 was the weakest IMO. The amount of subtle historical accuracy in this show is enough to keep my appetite wet. And that’s in addition to great acting and Richard Harrow as the second greatest HBO character after Al Swearengen.

  257. mariamb
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    DH87:
    The primary reason for cancelling a premium channel in the U.S. is cost, but I believe the second is the quality of the programming. GOT will be “renewed” so long as when DirecTV asks why you’re cancelling HBO you don’t answer the way I did about Homeland—that I don’t care enough about the show any more to keep Showtime.

    Agree with above statement.

    Overall, I think (hope?) that D&D can make AFFC and ADWD interesting enough to sustain viewership. It will need a lot of adaption – as well as elimination of some story lines – but I think that it can be done.

    Nonetheless, Homeland is a cautionary tale of how a great show can go to hell in a short period of time. I suspect that more will be canceling Showtime subscriptions because of it.

  258. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    Ser Tahu,

    As for Penny: You cannot really cut her, since she’s basically Tyrion’s redemption personified. Not to mention another potential at showing a positive, complex character who is also a little person.

    I’m a Penny fan as well. Will they really go as far as killing/beheading her dwarf brother, Oppo, in Cersei’s mad search for Tyrion…then have Penny actually meeting and adventuring with Tyrion from Volantis? Who knows, but that would be damn fun, imho!

    Don’t blink! Hopefully, Penny and her bro will be performing at the PW. Then we must wait until S5 before we see her again! She’s one of those “see me now, I make a difference later” characters.

  259. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yeah, I’m surprised that she seems to be disliked? It’s not her that makes me eyeroll through Tyrion’s ADWD chapters, let’s put it that way. I remember that there was a talent agency for little people who congratulated five of their actors for a gig on GoT, I’m assuming they’ll be at the wedding. I wonder if Penny will be a recognizable member of their troupe, or will be recast later, like Beric, Jaqen, Selyse, etc.

    I hear you on the beheadings, but I’m wondering if it would come across as offensive rather than darkly humorous.

  260. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,
    You say that it has been done 3 times already. I can only count two; Eddard and Oberyn. Who is the third?

    Also, as I mentioned above, Quentyn is different. He would survive to see the end of season 5, so viewers would think “Hey, this guy isn’t just a one season character. He’s going to be around fora while”.

    As for Penny: that may be true, but will Tyrion need redemption on the show? He isn’t nearly as vindictive on the show, and they will likely spin it in a way that makes his killing of Tywin and Shae is much more justifiable.

  261. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    mariamb,

    Homeland made the mistake of keeping Brody alive beyond season 1. The original plan was for the vest to explode. I can’t help but think the series could have turned out better if Brody’s family was not a focal point beyond the first season.

  262. House Mormont
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    I agree that being kind to Penny acts as Tyrion’s redemption… but will the show paint Tyrion so bad that he’ll need it?
    They’ve already white-washed him, the murders of Tywin and Shae are pretty understandable, and I doubt they’ll show him aggressively raping a whore in Selhoris twice so really he only needs to redeem himself for his parting gift to Jaime, which could be achieved without Penny when he saves Jorah twice/thrice?

  263. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Yeah, I don’t get the comparisons to True Blood. TB was never anything more than a campy show that didn’t aspire to be anything more. Paquin got the obligatory new comer Golden Globe win, but other than that the show was not really an awards show darling.

  264. House Mormont
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    ah man you beat me to the point :p

    also, Quentyn will probably be introduced after Doran’s true intentions are revealed if his travelogue is cut off, so the audience will be rooting for him so he can bring Dany to Westeros

  265. mariamb
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Agree. Whether you like the character or not, Brody should not still be a part of the show. And his family is killing all momentum. I understand keeping the family thru S2 but no longer. I don’t know how the showrunners turn it around at this point.

    Again, a cautionary tale of how quickly things can go bad…

  266. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: But True Blood was never particularly good in the first place.

    How quickly they forget! Although the Metacritics scores differ (TB’s, 64, 74; GOT’s, 79, 88), look at the ratings and the critical acclaim TB received in its first few years, then tell me there is no parallel with GOT!

    Anna Paquin won a Golden Globe for best actress; TB won an AFI Top Ten Show award in 2009, three BMI awards (2009/10), Best One Hour Series from the American Cinema Editors (2009), two Emmys in 2009 (one for Best Breakthrough Performance), Outstanding Drama Series (2009) GLAAD Media Awards,multiple SCREAM awards, a Screen Actors Guild award for best ensemble……oh, too many more to list. Suffice it to say it holds up well against the first two years of GOT and, of course, was the HBO ratings giant for several years running.

  267. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Number three: Robb. Maybe more on the show, but GRRM mentioned a while back in an interview that it was important for him to kill Robb because readers would think he is the hero who avenges his father and he wanted to subvert that, so I feel you can count him.

    That kid: still, it will be similar to Ned, and Oberyn, who each stayed/will stay around just one season. That said, I don’t think they’ll cut him entirely, because the Dornish trying to reach out to Dany seems like an important plot point, but I believe that his storyline will be shortened, rather than expanded upon, making him a guest/supporting character to Dany as opposed to a major character in his own regard.

    That girl: Hmmm. On the one hand, I think you’re totally right. On the other, I expect Show!Tyrion to embarrassingly sadsack it up with drinking and whoring and generally living the low life in Essos, so meeting Penny might give him the kick he needs to get back in the saddle.

  268. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I remember the critical reaction to TB being really bad even in the beginning, so this astonishes me. Huh.

    I’m actually more optimistic about GoT not tanking that much, mostly because the source material is a lot more solid, and TPTB aren’t nearly as embarrassed to be doing genre than the producers of TB often seemed to be (not to mention the cast).

  269. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Metacritic scores:

    Season 1 -

    True Blood:

    Critic score – 64
    User Score – 8.1

    Game Of Thrones:

    Critic score – 79
    User Score – 9.1

    Season 2:

    True Blood:

    critic score – 74
    user score – 8.1

    Game Of Thrones:

    Critic score – 88
    User score – 9.1

    Season 3:

    True Blood:

    Critic score – 79
    User score – 7.4

    Game Of Thrones:

    Critic score – 90
    User score – 9.1

    The fan ratings are particularly telling, as they take in the season as a whole, not just the first 4 episodes that the critics rate. True Blood has never had the combined success that GOT has.

  270. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    About Tyrion and Penny, see above, third point. I do think killing Tywin and Shae coming to her death however – I still don’t see him murdering her on the show – will bring him so low that he’ll need to get some boost again. And that probably won’t be saving fellow sad sack Jorah (whom I imagine in dirty clothes and a really embarrassing red beard sitting around staring droopily into his Very Strong Alcohol).

  271. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: I’m pretty sure HBO would have been significantly less willing to cancel True Blood if Alan Ball was still helming it, and the show had turned pretty much to schlock while he was still on board.

    The show was hemorrhaging viewers under Alan Ball’s watch in Season Five—down 750,000 viewers from its series high in Season Four— and AB knew viewers had had enough of his “take.” He bailed before the show was cancelled to avoid going down with the ship. Why else would he cite “exhaustion” as his reason for leaving after Season Five and immediately begin work on TWO new shows, Banshee and Wichita? Is that the new cure for exhaustion these days?

  272. House Mormont
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    on a related note I would love to watch a show where Jorah and Tyrion are sad but witty drinking companions

  273. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    Ser Tahu,
    Number three: Robb

    #4: Drogo?

    I agree that Tyrion has been bleached on the show, but wouldn’t it be fun to see him really transform to the dark side (not just more dark humor) at the end of S4? Have him escape KL in an absolute “madness” state…then to see him again in S5, depressed, lost, fucked-up…then chancing upon Jorah/Penny? Hell yeah! Team Dinklage…another Emmy!

  274. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Are you seriously citing Scream awards? GLAAD awards? Game Of Thrones has 40 Emmy nominations and 10 wins in it’s first 3 seasons, compared to True Blood’s 13 nominations and 2 wins in it’s first 3 seasons. True Blood has not recieved a single Emmy nomination in the last 3 years.

  275. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: The original plan was for the vest to explode. I can’t help but think the series could have turned out better if Brody’s family was not a focal point beyond the first season.

    This is a classic case of BigWig interference that the premium channels say they don’t practice. The Showtime folks didn’t want to ax the great Damian Lewis, fresh off his Emmy win, when it was clear the sizzle between Carrie and Brody was the center of the show and insisted that Brody be kept alive. They were rewarded with Emmys for Lewis (repeating) and Danes for Season Two, but the show seems to have lost its way since then.

  276. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Drogo is more like Robert in my opinion: someone who needs to die to kick off the plot, or in Drogo’s case, a character story (that of Dany).

    As for your suggestion, I personally wouldn’t need it, and the show has been playing him rather more balanced than the books where he does have his dubious moments before , so I’d be surprised if they go very dark with him. But who knows.

    Hmm, not the spinoff I would want, but I’m notoriously not a fan of Jorah, so…

  277. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Another one of those in the books is Ser Aerys, which I think is one reason why Qunentyn’s story has a “here we go again” kind of feel to it.

    I’m not sure what could be done to improve the first one if adapted, but with Quentyyn, I’d emphasize he and his companions being sympathetic characters, and then after his death have them swear bloody revenge from Dorne (I’m not positive this is where the story is going, but I have a feeling that Dorne (or at least Arrianne) is going to support Aegon, not Dany.

  278. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’m not saying TB and GOT are equal in quality over three-plus years. I specifically compared them for the first two years of life, to counter the claim that TB was “never any good.”

    I added in the SCREAM awards, which are viewer-voted, to counter any claim that only pointy-heads liked TB in its early days. As far as the GLAAD awards are concerned, they are viewed as achievement in certain segments of the Hollywood community. I didn’t want to disrespect them, but you, of course, are free to do so.

    Edit to acknowledge: I see I did say “in its first few years”–not the first “two,” although I provided examples only from the first two years by means of comparison. Sorry if that was confusing.

  279. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Just imagine Ned surviving and being sent to the Wall on Game Of Thrones the TV show. I’m sure some executives pitched that idea to George while trying to acquire the rights to his series.

  280. Cosca
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Breaking Bad had a bad season??? Which one? And Boardwalk Empire had 3? Dem’s fighting words son. I wouldn’t even say it’s had a single bad season! And have you already written off Season 4?

    Also Tahu, I think it’s time to accept that GRRM is going to be overtaken. It’s inevitable at this point. There’s been practically no indication that his writing speed has increased, he STILL spends so much of his time going to cons, doing side projects (many of which he seems not to finish either, just look at the Poul Anderson tribute), and now he’s curating a damn cinema. And seeing how it took him six years last time, when he already had half the book written, I see practically no reason to be optimistic. What’s that, no more Meereenese Knot you say? Well what about the Wintefell Knot? For that matter, what about the Westerosi Knot? At this point, I’m predicting a 2016 release for WoW, but maybe I’m being too optimistic there.

    And let’s say that by some miracle sent down from heaven on a chariot of fire by sweet Jesus GRRM releases the book next year. He’s already dedicated a huge chunk of WoW to the Battles of Mereen and Winterfell, to Arianne’s two travel chapters, not to mention that he’ll have to dedicate tons of space to the fallout of those battles to Dany with the Dothraki horde, to Jon’s ressurection etc. This isn’t even taking into account all the bloat that has become part of his M.O. At this point it wouldn’t be at all surprising if he had to have 8 books to finish.

    Even in this extremely positive scenario, and with Feast and WoW taking up 4 seasons, GRRM would have to finish aDoS faster than he did DwD, which isn’t all that likely, particularly since he has to wrap so many loose ends and plot lines.

    D&D can extend it to 10 seasons and it won’t matter. They’re still going to overtake George.

  281. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    And the “Tyrion and Jorah, drinking buddies” idea came from House Mormont (one of my favourite houses!), not Hodor’s Bastard. Sorry for the confusion!

    Jordan: I think that’s where the story will be going, too.

    Tyrion Pimpslap: I saw a video from the London Comic Con recently, where fans were asking Lena Headey, Joe Dempsie and Jason Momoa (he’s everywhere!) questions, and someone actually asked if they thought Ned could be brought back, now that the show was changing things from the books. You should have seen their faces. The moderator was great – he just moved on, after calling it a “daft question.”

  282. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    after his death have them swear bloody revenge from Dorne (I’m not positive this is where the story is going, but I have a feeling that Dorne (or at least Arrianne) is going to support Aegon, not Dany.

    Damn, that’s a huge discussion in-and-of itself! If the Aegon storyline has an ounce of genuine truth to it, then Dorne will have to choose sides (assuming Dany gets to Westeros). Could there be another “Dance with Dragons” (Targaryen vs Targaryen) in our future?

  283. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Much as I would want some tango between those two, I’m not sure poor Aegon will survive that long. Definitely see him sitting on the throne for a while, though.

  284. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Cosca,
    Season 2 of Breaking Bad was absolutely boring. As for BE, the pacing in the first three seasons was terrible. 9 episodes of nothingness followed by 3 where things move so quickly that it is hard to follow. Also, when I first started watching it the accents were almost impenetrable. Season 4 has been great, though :P.

    For my rant on how it is still possible for GRRM to finish first, see the last paragraph in this post:
    Ser Tahu,
    I don’t deny that there is strong likelihood of him being overtaken, but I don’t think we can completely rule out GRRM finishing first just yet. Also, the Meereenese knot was because he had to show events with no PoV’s present for them, not because he had so many PoV’s there. Also, he had problems working out the order of arrival for the various groups heading to Meereen. I think people greatly exaggerate the problem, and are too quick to rule out a 3-3.5 year gap between books (as opposed to a 6 year gap). I do agree, though, that 8 books would rule out any chance he has of finishing first. However, I don’t think he will need an 8th book. Do you really expect an entire book of nothing but them fighting the White Walkers? that would be extremely repetitive. He really only needs, maybe, 400-600 pages (ie half a book) for the final battle against them.

  285. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Cosca: Even in this extremely positive scenario, and with Feast and WoW taking up 4 seasons,GRRM would have to finish aDoS faster than he did both WoW and DwD, which isn’t all that likely, particularly since he ahs to wrap so many loose ends and plot lines.

    I’ve entertained the possibility that GRRM’s publisher might extend his manuscript deadlines (which they’ve done many times before) in order to allow him to flesh out the last books in script form first for D&D and keep the huge money engine that is GOT puffing down the line for the books already in print. That would solve two problems—the obvious one for D&D (even if they throw in their usual GS and GN and other filler on the GRRM scripts) and the less obvious one: to tie up the plot threads book fans have been demanding for years. In the unfortunate, not to be spoken of, remote, possibility that the last books, say, remain unfinished because GRRM decides to retire, at least the fans would be well-served and the series allowed to live merrily ever after for future book fans.

    This wouldn’t be remotely possible for any other best-selling author living but GRRM has decades of screen-writing under his belt (and said the hardest part of the scripts he’d written was mastering the Scriptwriting software. He’s done that now).

  286. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    GS and GN?

  287. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    DH87,
    GS and GN?

    The naughty bits…

  288. House Mormont
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Cosca,

    Apparently in the same interview that Liam Cunningham said he had a meeting with George where he was told a major secret about his character, George also said he was about halfway through tWoW (mind I never saw this interview but I’ve seen it discussed a lot), so there’s a sign that George is back to being quick

    And while I view the 7th book more as the home straight at the end of a circuit where it all comes together and is simpler and faster, he will probably have to release it in two parts to stay ahead of D&D

  289. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    Gratuitous Sex and Nudity. It’s what turned DH off from the show. Ever since Neil Marshall gave the interview saying a producer pressured him to include nudity she has really been down on the show, or at least more so than she used to be. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back, or at least that’s my read on it.

  290. Rygar
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    This would be a good time for a plug,

    Charlie Cox as Arys Oakheart.

  291. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    I think I’m missing something here, who is DH?

    I keep forgetting to comment on this:
    Regarding the YarAsha photo – if it is a legitimate photo then I don’t think that it is too late for us to see some of the Greyjoy uncles cast (or Tristifer Botley and Qarl, or a hybrid of the two, for that matter). A few weeks ago I speculated that the Greyjoy stuff might just be scheduled to be filmed late in the shooting period, which would explain the lack of casting news from that storyline. It seems that I may have been correct in that :D.

  292. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: I’m sure some executives pitched that idea to George while trying to acquire the rights to his series.

    Ironically, the “GRRM effect” is being felt on, of all things, True Blood. One of the current TB writers was recently quoted as saying that she pitched killing off the heroine, Sookie Stackhouse, in the writers’ room last season to show that “no one was safe” on that show. Shades of the Ned Stark discussion round the net.

  293. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: It’s what turned DH off from the show. Ever since Neil Marshall gave the interview saying a producer pressured him to include nudity she has really been down on the show, or at least more so than she used to be. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back, or at least that’s my read on it.

    Yes, absolutely correct. It shook my faith in D&D entirely and made me feel like a fool for defending them as creative and conscientious writers deserving of our trust. Other women critics/bloggers seem to agree, even those who never read the Marshall interview. GS and GN has become a pretty widespread complaint in the midst of the tsunami of praise the show has received.

    Edit to add for commenters above and below this post: I am “DH”—- “DH87.” However, I am no one’s “Dear Husband,” the usual “DH” definition.

  294. mariamb
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    I think I’m missing something here, who is DH?

    I second that question. Can’t figure out who that would be.

  295. Chickenduck
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    DH is DH87 in these comments, I assume?

  296. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I wasn’t sure what those abbreviations meant. I think this came up in another thread (can’t remember which one), but why do you assume they are the (primary) ones to blame for the gratuitous sex and nudity since not only do a number of other HBO shows have the same thing, but its pretty much de rigeur on cable shows in general.

    I also think you are off-base with your implication that D&D just want to change things for the lulz/because they hate the books, given that so many changes (some of which have been good) are due to budgetary issues.

    Dare I say you are buying into the typical purist viewpoint that sees D&D as “The Devil”?

    Edit- In particular, the idea of Game of Thrones having “brothel scenes” seems to derive from Rome and Deadwood, and is fairly common on Boardwalk Empire as well.

  297. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Cosca:
    Ser Tahu,
    I think it’s time to accept that GRRM is going to be overtaken. It’s inevitable at this point. There’s been practically no indication that his writing speed has increased…

    …And let’s say that by some miracle sent down from heaven on a chariot of fire by sweet Jesus GRRM releases the book next year.

    D&D can extend it to 10 seasons and it won’t matter. They’re still going to overtake George.

    Well put…I had a decent chuckle.
    I don’t think “poor” George has the heart to see his baby adopted and re-parented, even if he did provide a high level script. There would be much civil unrest amongst the sullied masses, I predict, and chaos will reign throughout the ether.

    (chanting softly in my cubicle…..”books before film, books before film…”)

    DH?: Come on folks, it’s David Hasselhoff.

  298. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    DH87,

    Edit- In particular, the idea of Game of Thrones having “brothel scenes” seems to derive from Rome and Deadwood, and is fairly common on Boardwalk Empire as well.

    Not to mention the books themselves!

    But yeah, I mostly put the random nude lady quotient down to this being HBO. At least the men are prettier than they were on The Sopranos (there were a couple of actors on that show whom I never ever need to see in a sex scene again).

    ETA: from what I remember the producer Neil Marshall described was neither of the D’s, but really someone from HBO directly. I’m also still not entirely sure he wasn’t being somewhat facetious in that claim; not least because the books actually have quite a bit of nudity and sex. It’s not like they’ve been spicing up a victorian novel for young ladies here.

  299. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: I think this came up in another thread (can’t remember which one), but why do you assume they are the (primary) ones to blame for the gratuitous sex and nudity since not only do a number of other HBO shows have the same thing, but its pretty much de rigeur on cable shows in general.

    This has been discussed here ad nauseam but I’ll provide the link once again to what I perceive as the smoking gun on this issue. http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

    The pertinent quote from the director of the Black Water episode:

    “The weirdest part [of directing Game of Thrones] was when you have ONE OF THE EXEC PRODUCERS leaning over your shoulder, going, ‘You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it!’ So I was like, ‘Okay, well, you’re the boss,’” he explained. “This particular exec took me to one side and said, ‘Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side, [but] I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.’ So you go ahead and do it.”

    No one but D or D would have the authority to give a direct order to an award-winning director on a specific scene such as this. If HBO had “required” nudity be included in that scene via a “note” (i.e., a network directive), Marshall would have recounted the exchange very differently. He’s no neophyte on how things work, at HBO or elsewhere.

    Edit to add: CAPS ADDED IN QUOTE. D&D have never acknowledged this conversation or offered an alternative view of this anecdote. Marshall has been rehired for next season. I’d assume if he were making things up out of whole cloth, given how much play this comment has received, D&D would have either denied it, or modified it, or put it in some kind of “context.” To my knowledge that hasn’t happened.

  300. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    while I’m still a bit sceptical about that interview/situation in particular, I’ve read some astonishing (and depressing) declarations by producers over the sexual content of their shows or female characters and castmembers over the years. I’ve taken to strictly ignoring what they have to say. Death Of The Author, and all.

  301. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    DH87: I’d assume if he were making things up out of whole cloth, given how much play this comment has received, D&D would have either denied it, or modified it, or put it in some kind of “context.” To my knowledge that hasn’t happened.

    The whole thing got enough attention that SNL made a great parody skit out of it last year.

  302. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,
    Off-topic, but I’ve been wondering; is your name a Minecraft reference?

  303. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Death Of The Author, and all.

    LOL. Anyone who drags Death of the Author into the discussion is OK by me! I’m old enough to have been in college when Roland Barthes published that essay and, as an author myself, I’d love to let my work speak for itself and direct everyone to disregard anything else I’ve ever said or done. Alas, I won’t give D&D (or Charlaine Harris, who has done her own work such a disservice that I hear some folks are calling such gaffs “pulling a Harris”) that pass.

    If that makes me a purist, I’m a purist. I would give D&D great leeway in combining, mixing, and matching timelines from book to book for continuity purposes or pruning dialogue but inflicting their taste on the viewers opens them to criticism. I’m pretty much over them and, as a result, over the show, although I plan to watch next season and still consider myself a fan. Just not a fervid one anymore.

  304. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    Well, I’m not going to deny that at least some of the gratuitous nudity is their idea (i.e. the Podrick scenes this season), but to play Devil’s Advocate, they aren’t the only executive producers of the show (and Marshall only mentioned a single executive producer).

    I suppose you could probably rule out Martin himself (although…), but besides D&D, the other executive producers are a Frank Doelger, Bernadette Caulfield, and Carolyn Strauss.

    Now it is probably more than likely that either Benioff or Weiss was the one who spoke with Marshall (I don’t know enough about each separately to judge which), but it could have been that Doegler (I’m ruling out the two women), since he did previously produce Rome.

    Also, to further play Devil’s Advocate, I would note that Marshall’s comment doesn’t rule out the possibility that D&D themselves were advised.

    And (which I think is a stronger point), Marshall’s quote itself indicates that the Executive Producer in question was motivated in part by precedent in cable shows/appealing to a (admittedly low brow) section of the audience.

    Its not like D&D are two pervs who are adding sexual content unusual on the network and at odds with the source material (probably the biggest change there is that unlike the books, the show has some sexual content that appears to a gay or female audience).

  305. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I concede you’re right about the interview. I remembered that wrong. My bad.
    It… doesn’t change my views on the show to be honest? *shrugs* I mean, I’m not here to ponder what TPTB think about parts of their audience. Creators commonly don’t give two cents about my demographics, and I’m returning the favour.

  306. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    mariamb,

    Homeland made the mistake of keeping Brody alive beyond season 1. The original plan was for the vest to explode. I can’t help but think the series could have turned out better if Brody’s family was not a focal point beyond the first season.

    Brody and Carrie are the show’s main characters and the whole thing is Brody’s story. The problem with this show is the very limited premise of someone returning home after 8 years in captivity and being suspected of turning. Even two seasons of 12 episodes is too much for it, and I suspect this show will be dragged the way Dexter was dragged for about 3 seasons after its expiration date. It’s already started to go to the “villain of the year” territory.
    Ser Tahu,

    The second season of Breaking Bad had such a great episodes as Grilled, Peekaboo, 4 Days Out, Better Call Saul, Phoenix. I rewatched it recently, it is an amazing season.

    DH87,

    Wikipedia lists 6 people as the executive producers _ Benioff, Weiss, Frank Doelger, Bernadette Caulfield, Carolyn Strauss and GRRM. AFAIK, GRRM wasn’t present during the shooting of that episode. Benioff and Weiss really seem like the “serious drama side” people, since they are the showrunners and the main writers. I really doubt it was one of them who told Neil Marshall to get that lady naked, but I guess we’ll never know unless Marshall specifically names the “perv”, which he will never do if he wants to work on American TV again.

  307. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    DH87: LOL. Anyone who drags Death of the Author into the discussion is OK by me! I’m old enough to have been in college when Roland Barthes published that essay and, as an author myself, I’d love to let my work speak for itself and direct everyone to disregard anything else I’ve ever said or done. Alas, I won’t give D&D (or Charlaine Harris, who has done her own work such a disservice that I hear some folks are calling such gaffs “pulling a Harris”) that pass.

    If that makes me a purist, I’m a purist. I would give D&D great leeway in combining, mixing, and matching timelines from book to book for continuity purposes or pruning dialogue but inflicting their taste on the viewers opens them to criticism. I’m pretty much over them and, as a result, over the show, although I plan to watch next season and still consider myself a fan. Just not a fervid one anymore.

    DH87,

    totally fine by me, seriously, even if I don’t have the same reservations. But I certainly don’t think everything the show producers do should go unchallenged (same goes for GRRM, obviously). So maybe only a severely incapacitated author. *g*

  308. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy,

    Yeah, maybe I’m being naive, but given their statements on their interest in the story (i.e. t he fairly recent interview on The Writers Room), that doesn’t sound like the kind of thing they would say.

    Not because I don’t think they don’t like gratuitous nudity themselves, but because they are clearly also/primarily interested in the drama side and that kind of statement makes a lot more sense coming from a nonreader exec than one or both of the people who created the show because of their love of the books.

  309. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: but it could have been that Doegler (I’m ruling out the two women), since he did previously produce Rome.

    Another Devil’s Advocate here: It’s not like Doegler was some HBO bigwig—despite his work on Rome, he was only a producer during the first season before being promoted to an executive producer. If he came up with something that D&D didn’t like but didn’t overrule—something Marshall hadn’t come up with on his own— then D&D have more problems than simply GS/GN.

  310. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    Nail Marshall, D&D and basically everyone involved in the Blackwater filming said that it was a month of very difficult night shoots, with rain, mud and everything. I really doubt getting more nudity would be on D&D’s minds in the midst of all that.

    In short, let’s blame Frank Doelger.

  311. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Not quite sure why my post above is credited to “undefined,” but it was mine.

    And to bring this discussion back to the original point of this post, Doelger predicts four more seasons for GOT.

    http://www.hypable.com/2013/05/17/game-of-thrones-7-seasons/

  312. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy: In short, let’s blame Frank Doelger.

    Bottom line, though, is—-if D&D didn’t like the scene set up, they would have said so.

  313. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy,
    It may be good upon rewatching it, but when I first watched Breaking Bad back in February my thoughts were:
    S1 – good, but doesn’t live up to the hype
    S2 – I’m bored (at the same time I was rewatching The Walking Dead, and I was watching Dexter (and was still in the first two seasons), so it kind of got overshadowed)
    S3 first half – still bored, and the episode ‘Fly’ is one of the most boring things I have ever seen.
    S3 second half – ok, this is starting to get good
    S4 – this is incredible
    S5A – it’s great but not as good as S4.

    And then S5B came out and blew everything else out of the water.

  314. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    DH87,
    I always took that quote to mean “we expect to get to at least 7 seasons”, not “we expect to get to at most 7 seasons”, because both before and after that quote came out D&D have said 8 seasons.

  315. Atreyu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I dislike him.

    *The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I want to tell him to suck it.

    See? It’s not so hard. Come to us. We will show you The Way.

  316. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: I always took that quote to mean “we expect to get to at least 7 seasons”, not “we expect to get to at most 7 seasons”, because both before and after that quote came out D&D have said 8 seasons.

    See my comment up thread comment re: seven season SAG contracts and series longevity.

  317. Rygar
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Atreyu: *The more Gurm opens his mouth, the more I want to tell him to suck it.

    See? It’s not so hard. Come to us. We will show you The Way.

    He told me enough. He told me you killed my father.

  318. Atreyu
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: He told me enough.He told me you killed my father.

    There, on the rocks. A lost sycophant. Come to me, my child. That is strength, boy! That is power! What are fanboys compared to those with reading comprehension? Look at the doubt in your mind, the desire in your heart, we gave you this! Such a waste. Contemplate this on the tree of woe.

  319. WildSeed
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    True, true.

  320. WildSeed
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Holy Moses !

  321. WildSeed
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: Dare I say you are buying into the typical purist viewpoint that sees D&D as “The Devil”?

    Don’t….. take that dare ! There is an ongoing and relevant discussion regarding
    this ( myself excluded ), from the show execs to a multitude of fandom. Lighten
    up, and do a web search, to at least gain some insights. The topic is not inspired
    or asserted to, by a singular person.

    Respect the right to form a different opinion.

  322. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I’m honestly not clear on what you mean by an ongoing discussion. What are you referring to specifically (I mean what are you recommending I websearch?)

    I’m mainly speaking of/criticizing this understanding (which I’ve frequently seen expressed) to the effect that D&D want to change things without reason out of some combination of simply wanting to leave their on mark on the work (perhaps true to an extent) or because they hate Martin/the books/all that is good in the world and want to ruin things.

    And while not at issue here, the latter seems to come up a lot in instances where people will criticize D&D the show for book-accurate things on the show (i.e. Renly’s sexuality, Theon’s gelding), ESPECIALLY when reacting to set photos.

    For instance, this post regarding those set pictures of Stannis burning people:

    “Oh great, D&D are going to make Stannis look more like an evil villain, they wont even go into detail on what these prisoners did, just burn them like that I bet.

    I bet they wont even show Stannis gelding the 3 soldiers that raped.

    useless they are”

    Note that in the books, Stannis oversees the burning of several people, some of which for relatively decent reasons (i.e. that Florent ) some of which not (the lord and his sons who were burned for protesting the destruction of the Seven).

    So, not only is this person jumping the gun and criticizing D&D for something that hasn’t happened yet, but if the burning is based on the second one I mentioned, they won’t be “demonizing” Stannis- they will be showing the same behavior he did in the books.

    (Incidentally, I don’t recall him gelding rapists “onscreen”. Did that happen in ADWD?)

  323. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Sorry to double post, but last one turned out longer than I intended.

    WildSeed, I”m not sure if this was what you were referring to, but I am familiar with various blogs/tumblrs discussing race and gender in the books/shows.

    Personally, I’d say that both books and shows have moments that make me cringe and although there’s both moments where the show comes across to me as improving on the books in those aspects, and ones where the books handled it better and the show made it worse.

  324. Chickenduck
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Haha, no… I’ve never played Minecraft and didn’t actually know Chickenduck “could” be a Minecraft reference! Coincidence.

    It was originally from a drunk joke about our cat having a twitter account that was mostly swearing.

  325. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    DH87,

    Well, I’m not going to deny that at least some of the gratuitous nudity is their idea (i.e. the Podrick scenes this season), but to play Devil’s Advocate, they aren’t the only executive producers of the show (and Marshall only mentioned a single executive producer).

    I suppose you could probably rule out Martin himself (although…), but besides D&D, the other executive producers are a Frank Doelger, Bernadette Caulfield, and Carolyn Strauss.

    Now it is probably more than likely that either Benioff or Weiss was the one who spoke with Marshall (I don’t know enough about each separately to judge which), but it could have been that Doegler (I’m ruling out the two women), since he did previously produce Rome.

    Also, to further play Devil’s Advocate, I would note that Marshall’s comment doesn’t rule out the possibility that D&D themselves were advised.

    And (which I think is a stronger point), Marshall’s quote itself indicates that the Executive Producer in question was motivated in part by precedent in cable shows/appealing to a (admittedly low brow) section of the audience.

    Its not like D&D are two pervs who are adding sexual content unusual on the network and at odds with the source material (probably the biggest change there is that unlike the books, the show has some sexual content that appears to a gay or female audience).

    I would agree with most of this. And the details of the story (didn’t he ask Marshall to go full frontal?) seem to indicate that they decided not to do that? Blackwater had the nude prostitute, but I don’t remember any full frontal shots of said prostitute.

    My problem with nudity is similar to my problem with violence. Sometimes it’s too much, and makes the individual scene worse. But it’s not prevalent enough/pointless enough times to bring down the show for me. Particularly for the most recent season.

    And while I respect people’s tastes on nudity (and violence) and not liking the show for that reason, I think a “purist” approach to criticizing the GN/GS is a curious one. You can be critical of nudity on the show, but it is not D&D shoehorning their own tastes in to replace Martin’s. The nudity and sex is consistent with the books. If anything, I am mire disturbed and more offended by the graphic sex scenes in the book, often with underage characters, than even the ridicUlous brothel scenes in the show.

  326. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    DH87,

    Well, I’m not going to deny that at least some of the gratuitous nudity is their idea (i.e. the Podrick scenes this season), but to play Devil’s Advocate, they aren’t the only executive producers of the show (and Marshall only mentioned a single executive producer).

    I suppose you could probably rule out Martin himself (although…), but besides D&D, the other executive producers are a Frank Doelger, Bernadette Caulfield, and Carolyn Strauss.

    Now it is probably more than likely that either Benioff or Weiss was the one who spoke with Marshall (I don’t know enough about each separately to judge which), but it could have been that Doegler (I’m ruling out the two women), since he did previously produce Rome.

    Also, to further play Devil’s Advocate, I would note that Marshall’s comment doesn’t rule out the possibility that D&D themselves were advised.

    And (which I think is a stronger point), Marshall’s quote itself indicates that the Executive Producer in question was motivated in part by precedent in cable shows/appealing to a (admittedly low brow) section of the audience.

    Its not like D&D are two pervs who are adding sexual content unusual on the network and at odds with the source material (probably the biggest change there is that unlike the books, the show has some sexual content that appears to a gay or female audience).

    I would agree with most of this. And the details of the story (didn’t he ask Marshall to go full frontal?) seem to indicate that they decided not to do that? Blackwater had the nude prostitute, but I don’t remember any full frontal shots of said prostitute.

    My problem with nudity is similar to my problem with violence. Sometimes it’s too much, and makes the individual scene worse. But it’s not prevalent enough/pointless enough times to bring down the show for me. Particularly for the most recent season.

    And while I respect people’s tastes on nudity (and violence) and not liking the show for that reason, I think a “purist” approach to criticizing the GN/GS is a curious one. You can be critical of nudity on the show, but it is not D&D shoehorning their own tastes in to replace Martin’s. The nudity and sex is consistent with the books. If anything, I am mire disturbed and more offended by the graphic sex scenes in the book, often with underage characters, than even the ridiculous brothel scenes in the show.

  327. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen: I would agree with most of this. And the details of the story (didn’t he ask Marshall to go full frontal?) seem to indicate that they decided not to do that? Blackwater had the nude prostitute, but I don’t remember any full frontal shots of said prostitute.

    I just rewatched the scene. Very full frontal as she sits on Bronn’s lap. You can even tell that she is completely shaved, which was very popular back in the Westerosian Middle Ages, I hear.

    By the way, the scene is a great non-book scene, but her being in the scene was completely unnecessary. (!)

  328. Cosca
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    I suppose you could probably rule out Martin himself (although…),

    I’d say that we can rule out GRRM. If he had his way with GoT nudity, there would be unwavering focus on nipples.

  329. Jordan
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    That reminded me of Natalia Tena commenting on Osha being anachronistically shaved. That was rather a goof, seeing as the character doesn’t seem to bathe all that frequently or place a huge amount of importance on hygiene. She’s not the kind of person that would take the time to have a Brazilian.

  330. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    That reminded me of Natalia Tena commenting on Osha being anachronistically shaved.That was rather a goof, seeing as the character doesn’t seem to bathe all that frequently or place a huge amount of importance on hygiene.She’s not the kind of person that would take the time to have a Brazilian.

    :-))
    I always wondered if Brienne groomed herself with Oathkeeper.

  331. DH87
    Posted October 15, 2013 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen: If anything, I am mire disturbed and more offended by the graphic sex scenes in the book, often with underage characters, than even the ridiculous brothel scenes in the show.

    I see your point. I am more tolerant of the underage sex in the books since it accurately reflects the mores of Plantagenet/Tudor England of the 1400s. For example, many English queens were extremely young, both when married and when they gave birth. Queen Mother Margaret Beaufort gave birth to the future Henry VII at age 13, after marrying Edmund Tudor.

    In GOT, the actors are obviously older—of legal age, most certainly—some scenes have a lasciviousness that is borderline offensive to many (not to all, or even most, necessarily). They have been heavy-handed and distracting, on occasion, IMO. That there were fewer of these scenes in Season 3 (with the arguable exception of the Theon scenes) I consider a favorable turn of events.

    (By comparison, The White Queen, on Starz, of Spartacus fame, has dealt with nudity in a much briefer, softer-edged, more natural way, perhaps because the series is based on a series of novels by a woman, and was produced and written by women.)

  332. Jordan
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    “Lascivious” is a quite good description. I definitely agree that it went a bit too far in the second season and the third season was an improvement.

    In terms of your first paragraph, I have issues with the “historical realism” argument. Those kind of marriages were rarer in reality than they are in the books (and where they occurred, were often not consummated immediately.

    Also, I get the feeling when reading Dany’s wedding night as well as Sansa’s “wedding night” with Tyrion (and some other scenes with Sansa) that outside of the historical realism, the reader is also supposed to find them attractive/understand why male characters do in-universe.

    I think part of what makes it squicky for me (especially where the Sansa scenes are concerned) is that while chronologically, the male characters aren’t a huge amount older, they read as a lot older than she does.

    And also, as alluded to above, there are some pretty trashy sex scenes in the books (thinking especially of Arrianne’s, Cersei and the “Myrrish Swamp”, and Asha’s scene in ADWD), although I admit they are rarer than the more pervasive nudity on the show.

    Edit- Incidentally, I think the show with the most gratuitous sex scenes that I’ve encountered was Boss, on Stars.

  333. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    DH87,
    Completely unrelated:
    Regarding your “DH87″ moniker, just wondering…in between authoring tasks, are you a small plane pilot or are you a fan of Ken Follet’s works?

  334. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Jordan:
    DH87,

    “Lascivious” is a quite good description.I definitely agree that it went a bit too far in the second season and the third season was an improvement.

    In terms of your first paragraph, I have issues with the “historical realism” argument. Those kind of marriages were rarer in reality than they are in the books (and where they occurred, were often not consummated immediately.

    Also, I get the feeling when reading Dany’s wedding night as well as Sansa’s “wedding night” with Tyrion (and some other scenes with Sansa) that outside of the historical realism, the reader is also supposed to find them attractive/understand why male characters do in-universe.

    I think part of what makes it squicky for me (especially where the Sansa scenes are concerned) is that while chronologically, the male characters aren’t a huge amount older, they read as a lot older than she does.

    And also, as alluded to above, there are some pretty trashy sex scenes in the books (thinking especially of Arrianne’s, Cersei and the “Myrrish Swamp”, and Asha’s scene in ADWD), although I admit they are rarer than the more pervasive nudity on the show.

    Agree. The male perspective is dominant in the books, particularly in the matter of sex and titillation. I don’t think that’s in dispute here, even among the most disputatious among us.

  335. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Regarding your “DH87″ moniker, just wondering…in between authoring tasks, are you a small plane pilot or are you a fan of Ken Follet’s works?

    Ha, ha. Nope. My initials are “DH” and I was assigned the random screen name “DH87″ by the HBO Talk forums, where I began posting about TB and GOT in 2009. Since many of those fans frequented other boards I frequented, it seemed easiest to be DH87 wherever I post on film adaptations/novels/series.

    I think Wild Seed and I posted on one of them, if I’m not mistaken.

  336. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Jordan: ongoing discussion

    Previous Comment Threads, here and the World Wide Web. Executive producers
    Benioff & Weiss have taken time to comment at length , and countless jokes
    offered. There have been those that appreciate the historic references vs equally
    relevant POV that assert to the gratuitous nature of certain scenes ( i.e. S2 Brothel
    scene with Bronn & Sandor ; Joffrey’s sadomasochism scene with the two
    prostitutes ). I didn’t care for those two scenes in particular, especially the
    non essential aspect to the episodes. The debate isn’t over for many fans ,
    that’s clear, and I respect reasonable discussion from all camps. Just cautioning
    not leveling insult at those whom consider differently than the other. This is
    the internet, it’s difficult to ascertain what or why fans get passionate about
    various issues. Best to reserve judgement, yet I understand
    your overall POV, others have expressed some of the same
    sentiment as you have, above.

    I’m for equal opportunity nudity, where it helps to develop the scene or an essential
    aspect to a particular character. In S1, I expected the sexual prowess of Tyrion,
    Theon, and Roz. We’re watching Game of Thrones, not Game of Thongs. More
    content, less gimmick. The viewing audience appreciates this, and a little T & A
    goes a long way onscreen than is needed for written description within a book text.

  337. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Yup, SVB alum and proud of it. My first and most revered , sad to lose the Forum
    and such lovely intelligent regulars. *>*

  338. Jordan
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Oh, I see I totally misunderstood you then. I thought you were referencing ongoing discussion in terms of the viewpoint I noted that D&D are ruining the books or even outright hate them.

    I am definitely familiar with the various discussions of sex scenes in the show and the problems therein.

    I do apologize though for being impolite in how I expressed that post.

  339. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I believed your name to be something akin to what those in the US refer to as
    Thanksgiving Holiday main dish. At least you’re not ” Tofurky “, that’s
    Tofu shaped as a roasted turkey, I think.

  340. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Yes, it was a fun place for a long time and much better than the show—and even the books, as it turned out—deserved.

  341. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    No worries. And anyone who insist on Benioff & Weiss as ” ruining ” the
    ASOIAF story, are few in number, on this site. These folk rant on at other
    fan sites, but find little or no solace here. There’s been a learning curve
    for the production, a whole, and adaptation of any text in general. It
    remains essential to appreciate the both book and screen versions as
    separate and special. I anticipated author GRRM to express his recent
    thoughts much earlier than the interview put forth. It was inevitable.

    DH87: GRRM probably doesn’t hate the show but “His books [are] his, and the show [is] Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff]‘s” is accepted author-speak for “They’ve changed things up so much I no longer recognize my own work. You fans are on your own” in the post-Anne Rice world.

    Sums it up nicely.

  342. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    ( : so true, mon ami

  343. Jordan
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    A big part of why I reacted negatively is that I’m familiar with the commentary of that Linda over at Westeros and I’ve come to have some antipathy toward Martin to the extent that I believe/fear she represents his views on various subjects- specifically race and gender issues as well as thoughts on the show.

    So, when Martin commented about seeing the book and show as separate (which DH87 correctly identified as a polite way of saying he no longer recognized his own creation- which incidentally, I think is an unfair characterization of the show vis a vis the books), I was reminded of Linda’s definite hatred of the show (particularly a comment that the show is nothing but “fanfic”).

  344. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I’m only vaguely aware of specific sites because I visit here, primarily, or GRRM’s
    Blog ( a few times per year ). However it’s reasonable to expect fans or naysayers
    of either extreme to extend their point of view, herds come and go too.

    If one has had the opportunity to read the ASOIAF books, or any for that matter,
    and appreciate the imagery, the likelihood of a screen adaption creates a different
    mindset. Because of a fresh face, some may now find themselves drawn to a character
    they believe they hated or disliked. Because of a tweaked storyline, such was Ygritte
    or Melisandre, the book impression now seems flat or incomplete. In the case for
    Ygritte, whom I dismissed in the books , except for her popular phrase, actually
    rose slightly in respect, from my POV. On the other hand, as talented as Carice
    van Houton is, not to mention Stephen Dillaine as Stannis, their onscreen
    characters are slightly stymied by the script and/ or scripted events. Don’t get me
    started on the Rob / Catelyn storyline, or Qhorin….. bygones, sadly, but much
    more left in play, to continue a well thought out story for the remaining and
    soon to be introduced characters and stories. We just have to keep a balanced
    perspective….. a little rant here, a little praise there…..but mainly, appreciate
    the different mediums to tell the story, and the incredible work it takes to put on
    a production of this size. And who knows, maybe Ghost might make a reappearance.

  345. Enfield
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I agree. It’s nice to see there’s still some intelligent debate that is more than “the show ruined the books and here’s why”. At risk of overloading this conversation with opinions, here are my thoughts.
    People seem to have a hard time separating the books and show in their heads, and it’s a shame because they’re both masterpieces in their respective mediums. I can’t imagine being D&D and creating this show that (in my opinion) equals the books as far as emotional and dramatic connection, and having an entire portion of the audience hate you because they changed things to fit their own vision. ASOIAF is not a screenplay. It’s a different medium and there are different rules when it comes to scenes, characters, etc.

  346. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,
    The chickens in Minecraft are often said to resemble ducks more than chickens :P.

    Off-topic: I was rereading the chapter where Oberyn arrives at King’s Landing, and there are so many great lines thought, but not said, by Tyrion:
    How many Dornishmen does it take to start a war? Only one.“,
    This will mean blood in the gutters” and
    Did Prince Doran mean to provoke a quarrel” being some of the standouts. Do you think there is any way that those lines, despite being thought in the books, could end up making in to the show? My thought was that perhaps they could give Oberyn his own personal sigil, and have it flying below the banner of House Martell. During the scene where they are naming the Houses from a distance based on the banners they could have Tyrion realise it is Oberyn and not Doran, and then say some of those lines. But unfortunately that is highly unlikely.

  347. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    In terms of your first paragraph, I have issues with the “historical realism” argument. Those kind of marriages were rarer in reality than they are in the books (and where they occurred, were often not consummated immediately.

    I had this argument here a couple of weeks ago – another issue with “historical realism” is that ASOAIF is not a historical fiction, it’s a fantasy set in an imaginary world. GRRM is free to invent whatever rules he wants. Underage sex scenes in the books are really REALLY unnecessary.

  348. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Enfield,

    hear, hear. One of the things I appreciate most about GoT is that it gives fantasy on TV the chance to get out of the silly trash corner it gets stached in far too easily.

    Alex Greyjoy,

    agreed. It’s one thing that annoys me the most – each time something is criticized in the books as too exaggerated in the name of grittiness, you’ll get the “but that’s how it was back then” argument. Martin isn’t writing a documentary on medieval living, he’s writing a fantasy set in a dark world that makes use of elements and clichés being used in historical fantasy and historical fiction. It’s not “realistic” so much as a heightened version of a possible medieval Europe. Like hardboiled fiction or film noir aren’t really about Los Angeles in the 1930s/40s, but images of that place at that time.

  349. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    DH87:
    (By comparison, The White Queen, on Starz, of Spartacus fame, has dealt with nudity in a much briefer, softer-edged, more natural way, perhaps because the series is based on a series of novels by a woman, and was produced and written by women.)

    As far as I understood, the BBC version (or was it Channel 4?) of The White Queen actually had a lot more sex and nudity, and Starz cut quite a bit of stuff, so it’s nothing to do with female creators…

  350. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    It’s the opposite.

    I watched the BBC version and it had perhaps 3-4 scenes of very brief nudity (boobs for split second, mostly). I understand that the Starz version is whatever was on BBC plus random nudity to “spice” things up.

  351. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy:
    The Blue Grace,

    It’s the opposite.

    I watched the BBC version and it had perhaps 3-4 scenes of very brief nudity (boobs for split second, mostly). I understand that the Starz version is whatever was on BBC plus random nudity to “spice” things up.

    Ohh, okay. Bad sources, then.

    I have to admit that the idea of something being less gratuitous because of a female creator, like DH87 speculated, is strange to me, given the number of cringeworthy, awkward or horrible sex scenes I’ve read in fantasy or historical fiction written by women. It’s often a different way of cringeworthy – in GRRM’s case, a lot of his word choices are unfortunate to the point of parody for instance – but nonetheless, not tasteful or interesting.

  352. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Here’s an example of how to write about two 13-year olds having a relationship “back then”:

    I was with Brida and we had become more than friends.

    Then there are couple of lines telling that the girl had a miscarriage, without going into the unnecessary detail.

    This is from Bernard Cornwell’s The Last Kingdom, a first book in the series about Viking invasion of England in the late 9th century.

  353. Adam Whitehead
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    the 8 season figure isn’t something set in stone. It is what they are aiming for, yes, but it is not a maximum.

    Based on the realities of TV production, each season beyond the 7th will see a significant increase in actor salaries and the cost of production (as the Season 1 actors will exhaust their original contracts in Season 6, and then their original extension option – if any – in Season 7). Shows have gone for 9+ seasons before – Cheers, Friends, Frasier, The X-Files – but only by either not being very expensive to produce in first place or by replacing lead characters and so on. For a show of GoT’s scope and scale, just getting to 8 seasons will be a major achievement. Beyond that I think we are getting into highly speculative territory.

    I think that 8 seasons being a season too far and the show ending after 7 is a far more realistic eventuality than the show ever making it to 9.

    Peter Dinklage has a seven year contract

    I don’t think he can. Under the De Havilland precedent/law from the 1960s, all TV and film contracts have to be six years or less. They can have a one-year extension clause (i.e. six seasons and then a further season under improved terms) but not a seven year contract outright. After the six seasons you can certainly sign a new multi-year contact, but agents will usually bargain year-by-year instead as they can react better to the show being a huge success. Eventually the show will end up being too expensive to produce, like FRIENDS, which in its final season had a budget of about $7 million per episode: $1 million per episode per each castmember, and then $1 million to actually make the episode and pay everyone else (guest cast, crew, sets, location filming etc). That was unsustainable, even given the immense amount of money the show made in foreign sales, advertising and so on.

    Why else would he cite “exhaustion” as his reason for leaving after Season Five and immediately begin work on TWO new shows, Banshee and Wichita? Is that the new cure for exhaustion these days?

    I actually agree with your take on Ball, but he may have meant creative exhaustion related to TB specifically (i.e. he didn’t know how to take the show forwards, having long since abandoned following the books). For some writers, throwing off the baggage and continuity of a show you’ve been working on for 5-6 years to start fresh with something new can be as re-energising as a long holiday.

    A big part of why I reacted negatively is that I’m familiar with the commentary of that Linda over at Westeros and I’ve come to have some antipathy toward Martin to the extent that I believe/fear she represents his views on various subjects- specifically race and gender issues as well as thoughts on the show.

    I’m not sure why. They’re two different people living six thousand miles apart. Linda and Ran are working on the world book with GRRM, but certainly aren’t mouthpieces for GRRM. GRRM has his blog and other means to say the things he wants, and Ran and Linda are normally very careful to make it clear that their views are their own. In fact, they seemed to be taken by surprise a little while back when GRRM said something about the world book they assumed was off-limits until publication, and then they could talk about it (it was pretty minor, relayed to Queen Rhaenyra’s children and who fathered them and how many dragons they had, but still new information).

  354. Josh
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Laura:
    Couldn’t they just introduce Willas and Garlan later on? I don’t really see why that would be a problem.

    Yeah, I think they said Loras was the heir of HighGarden but there is no reason they can’t just be a year younger, especially if Loras joins the KnightsGuard which would mean that Willas will become heir to High Garden. This will work even better if Sansa does end up with Willas, as the closer in age, the better it will be on screen. And in the book IMO. I’ve never been a fan of some of the creeper ships . . It’s definitely an easy fix.

  355. Rygar
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Interesting

  356. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    GRRM is an amazing writer and the people posting here to criticize him are losers…

    DH87 makes some great points.

    Alex Greyjoy obsesses about underage sex once again.

    Great thread, interesting stuff!

  357. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Ser Endrew Tarth,

    Did you try to actually read the thread before responding?

    Here are few tips on how to discuss stuff:
    1. Hear someone out/read whatever he wrote.
    2. State your opinion.
    3. Go to 1.

    Or:
    1. State your opinion.
    2. Wait for response.
    3. Address the response if necessary.
    4. Go to 2.

    P.S. My English is getting better, isn’t it?

  358. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Ser Endrew Tarth,
    GRRM is an amazing writer.

    DH87, Alex Greyjoy, Blue Grace, WildSeed, Ser Tahu, Rygar, Jordan, Alex Whitehead, boze, chickenduck, bard, Jentario, Sean C., the Berylfly, Pau, King Tommen, mariamb, azad, Cosca, Tyrion PimpleSplat, Turncloak, Greatjon of Slumber, Arkash, Dragon Demands, OiTF, WiC, Oz, FaB, HMR, Family-Duty-Hodor, Hodor Targaryen, Garlan, siberia82, Lady Snark, Lady of Highgarden, KG, GG, J Atreides, Attreyu, among many, many other great fans of good fiction on this site, make great points and encourage more passionate discussion.

    Humans obsess about sex.

    Unfortunately, inflection is absent when chatting in the ether, which sometimes causes confusion and untoward reactions.

    Really great thread, interesting stuff!

  359. House Mormont
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    yes you’re right it’s a great chapter/scene

    In my head when I read the book (I always think about how things translate on screen when I read) I thought Tyrion could realise it was the Red Viper by his horse and make Podrick recite the tale of how he became the Red Viper (the poisoning story) in the same Septa Mordane way he made Pod repeat the houses and sigils.
    Then Tyrion could finish and talk about the show alternative of what he did to Willas and then how he left Westeros and went to Asshai
    And Bronn can wonder if Doran wanted to provoke King’s Landing because it’s something only a dangerous sellsword can say outloud

  360. House Mormont
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    And when it comes to the show’s nudity, GRRM once said about the books that people are ok when he explicitly describes a battleaxe going through someone’s skull but when he explicitly describes a sex scene everyone freaks out when really they’re both the same. I think that should apply to the show too.

    It doesn’t really add anything for the show for me but it keeps a lot of casuals watching and that’ll get us more seasons :).
    And atleast it’s more aesthetically pleasing compared to Sam’s fat pink mast and Taena’s swamp, and better than the frequent “a few thrusts and it was done”…

  361. Ozymandias
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    “MEDIEVAL LAND FUN-TIME WORLD” EXTENDED TRAILER
    Type this on Youtube.
    Best thing ever.

  362. Adam Whitehead
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    People get that the ‘Myrish swamp’ scene wasn’t remotely meant to be erotic or titilating though, right?

    It’s basically someone who has zero sexual interest in the other person (Cersei) using it to exert power over the other person in a very cynical kind of way, and the implication that the other person (Taena), though she might have been a bit more into it, was still primarily doing it to gain power and influence for herself and her family. It’s actually one of the most cynical scenes in the entire series. It was clunkily and wince-inducingly-written, no doubt, but that was clearly deliberate. The reader is not supposed to be getting off on it or enjoying it, any more than they were the early Drogo/Dany scenes.

    There are other scenes which are meant to be more emotional which misfire due to clunky writing, sure, but that’s not one of them.

  363. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu: That then leaves the entirety of season 7 for the rest of TWoW, and season 8 (and season 9, if needed) for ADoS.

    If we are looking that far down the road, which is fun to do, keep in mind that HBO gave the current showrunner of True Blood only six weeks’ notice before he had to begin work on the new season that it would be its last. (And that was only after the showrunner publicly asked for a decision from the channel.) That would not be a lot of time to wrap up a show as complicated as is GOT. (And if you think HBO would give GOT more notice than that, you don’t understand that once a show is cancelled, ad and promotion dollars are allocated to the up-and-coming shows and cancelled shows are dead men walking, as a result). Again, to use TB as an example: the last season is eight months away from airing and already major forums have closed up shop, existing forums are ghosts of their former selves, FB presence is all but gone, and stars are already talking up their next projects and lining up work.

    As the show ages, D&D will have to streamline/resolve as much as they can, in defense mode, because they will not be in charge of the show’s lifespan. I’m fully prepared for the last season of the show, whether it’s season 5 or season l0, to be a full-out run to the finish, with some amount of “cheating” to resolve storylines and wrap things up as best they can. The alternative would be an Internet of fury over what was left out, cobbled together, or made to happen outside the GRRM or show world rules. (The terrible endings of Sopranos and Lost still haunt their showrunners.)

  364. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    It’s the phrasing of the scene that made it one of the prime examples of weird and awkward book sex scenes. I get what he was trying to say, but once I read the words “Myrish swamp”, I start to wonder whether I’m reading a fantasy novel or a bad porn story.

  365. Rygar
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Ozymandias:
    “MEDIEVAL LAND FUN-TIME WORLD” EXTENDED TRAILER
    Type this on Youtube.
    Best thing ever.

    He is a Capricorn!

    The voice over for Dany and Tyrion are so perfect.

  366. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead:
    People get that the ‘Myrish swamp’ scene wasn’t remotely meant to be erotic or titilating though, right?

    Yes, although I saw it as more… sad (yet fucked up) than cynical, in a way? Cersei has all these thoughts about her relationship with Robert before, and the idea that someone is so warped by her experience with sex that she thinks only effectively raping someone will give her pleasure and then realizes that it doesn’t work for her, but doesn’t realize that she only found pleasure with Jaime because Jaime cared for her – I felt sorry for her. In fact, that was one of the few times where I found Cersei emotionally engaging in the books instead of just a flat cartoon villainness.

  367. The Blue Grace
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy: I get what he was trying to say, but once I read the words “Myrish swamp”, I start to wonder whether I’m reading a fantasy novel or a bad porn story.

    It’s not extremely well written, although these words bothered me more because it’s yet another way that Cersei is EVIL – she doesn’t just hate other women, she has to be a racist on top of it.

    House Mormont,

    I feel I have to defend GRRM a bit here, since I think he didn’t say they were the same but that sex was more positive than getting killed with an axe. Other than that I agree with you.

  368. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy,

    I agree completely, but I never had any expectations that such an approach was in GRRM’s arsenal of storytelling weapons. Look at Beauty and the Beast, which was at its heart a horror story told within the romantic genre: you see a beloved heroine kept alive only until her half-beast child is born then is killed moments after delivery. That was shocking on broadcast TV in the l980s. The entire final season was a dark exploration of sadistic evil that proved even then “no one was safe” in the GRRM world. (Granted, Linda Hamilton wanted out.)

    I was a fan of B&B during its original run—it was way ahead of its time. So many associated with that show went on to have pretty spectacular careers. Linda Hamilton and GRRM, obviously. Ron Baker is now a seven-time Oscar winner for make-up. Ron Perlman has had a long career, with some great work to his credit. Costume designer Judy Evans went on to work for 177 episodes of Golden Girls, Designing Women, etc.

  369. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    I should have included Alex Gansa, another B&B alumnus, who now runs Homeland (and appears on the list I cite, below).

    …..and D&D were just named to the Top Twenty-Five Showrunners in Hollywood (Drama) list by the Hollywood Reporter. (List seems to be alphabetical, therefore appear at the end).

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/hollywood-reporter-names-50-power-648546/group/Drama

    Edit to add: I thought I corrected “Ron” to “Rick” Baker in my post above. I was thinking of Ron Koslow, the B& B showrunner.

  370. Alice
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Lol people, George said they have parts to play not they’re extremely important or sit on the iron throne or whatever.

  371. Alvis
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Ozymandias,

    This is perfect.

  372. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    Well stated, ser .

  373. WildSeed
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Enfield,

    There are many whom comment here, that state more eloquently than I mention
    above, the merits of both mediums are a challenge , both. Enjoy them for what
    these present, or fancy yourself fulfilling the role, quite daunting…… *>*

  374. DH87
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Whenever I come across a comment from a showrunner about pressure from the premium channel bigwigs to add sex or nudity “because it’s HBO (or Showtime or Starz),” I think of our discussions here. I just came across this Q&A with Ron Moore on Vulture.com:

    The Outlander books have some pretty graphic sex scenes. Will the show try to rival Game of Thrones in that department? And is sexposition a technique you would ever use?
    What?

    Sexposition — pairing up sex scenes with necessary exposition.
    While sex is going on in the background? Oh, that’s funny. I thought you were saying “sex position.” We’ll have those, too. [Laughs.] I’m not sure what I would use sexposition for. We’ll have a lot of sex scenes, but they’ll all seem to have a purpose. And there’s no pressure from on high to sex up Outlander.

    So there’s another showrunner, albeit it for Starz, saying he isn’t getting pressured, a la the HBO/Neil Marshall/conspiracy theorists here.

  375. Chickenduck
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    So anyway, this thread’s getting a bit too serious, so I think you should all go watch this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Krz-dyD-UQ

    Littlefinger’s Kittenburgers.

  376. Atreyu
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,
    You misspelled my name. Fill your hand you sonofabitch!

  377. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 16, 2013 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Atreyu:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    You misspelled my name. Fill your hand you sonofabitch!

    That there’s bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!

  378. WildSeed
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 12:52 am | Permalink
  379. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    So there’s another showrunner, albeit it for Starz, saying he isn’t getting pressured, a la the HBO/Neil Marshall/conspiracy theorists here.

    It’s better to ask him after his show will be done. Maybe he’ll tell the same tale the Party Down people told in the link I’ve put here a couple of weeks ago.

    Bottom line is that we dedicate too much time to discussing a non-issue. Are all the nudity/sex scenes absolutely necessary? Probably not. Do they actually harm the show? No, at least according to the ratings and DVD sales. The books have more sex scenes and they are much weirder and more unnecessary. If you don’t have a problem will all the weirdness in the books, everything the show has shown so far shouldn’t be a problem.

    And if we are talking about other HBO shows – I’m still pretty sure Boardwalk Empire has more nudity than GoT.

  380. Adam Whitehead
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    The books have more sex scenes

    No, they don’t. Unless you mean all five books so far versus the three seasons, in which case maybe.

    But like-for-like (Seasons 1-3, Books 1-3.5), the TV series has way more scenes featuring sex and nudity. I even started making a comparative list and gave up because the TV show had rocketed far ahead before Season 2 was even a few episodes old.

  381. Willowflower
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Though that was only after they thought Bran and Rickon were dead. Bran was named as heir, even though he’s younger than Sansa. Iirc, it’s in Dorne that inheritance goes to the oldest child regardless of gender.

  382. Jordan
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    I think you’re right. I was considering that popular rebuttal about the books also having a lot of sex scenes, but thinking about it, the show definitely outstrips the books.

    Now I do think to some degree the books come across “worse” because of the greater amount of squicky sexual content, and I also think its possible that the show lines up pretty well with the books if you are only talking about sex “scenes” (which are pretty much the same as in the books with maybe a few extra) as opposed to “scenes with nude extras” (which there are a lot).

    Also, I wonder how one would account for something like the Melisandre and Stannis scene, as its not something we see onscreen in the book (because Stannis doesn’t have a POV and Melisandre didn’t have one yet), but it presumably happened (it takes two to make a shadowbaby).

    Or similarly, there’s some dialogue between Jeyne and Catelyn in the book that indicates Jeyne and Robb have sex a lot. Does showing a sex scene between Robb and Talisa really count as atextual?

  383. jaek
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Urban Bran,

    I would have liked that. It would have given us true insight into his actions, as opposed to observations of his actions (breaking Frey promise, Karstark, etc).

  384. Michael Ashcraft
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Azad Injejikian,

    I believe they said that Loras and Margarey were the only Tyrell children in the show.

  385. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy: Bottom line is that we dedicate too much time to discussing a non-issue.

    You may be right. But for good or ill, D&D have made GOT the gold standard for “sexposition,” as the Moore quote above indicates. For the foreseeable future, GOT = GN/GS. No doubt that makes the “perv element” advocate, whoever he is, very proud.

    And, who knows? Sexposition may even be another reason for GRRM’s “What’s mine is mine, what’s theirs is theirs” stance.

    Adam Whitehead, thanks for comparing the books and the show long enough to verify what almost everyone suspected—the sex scenes in the show greatly outnumber those in the books. (And, I suspect if you actually compared the ratio of all book scenes to all show scenes, the disparity would be even more pronounced.)

  386. Jordan
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    A couple of thoughts:

    First, did it occur to you that perhaps Outlander wouldn’t “need” sexposition because as the link you posted noted, the work already has a lot of graphic sex scenes?

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, sexposition is not the same thing as gratuitous sex and nudity- the neologism specifically refers to that combination of exposition and nudity, which has become distinctive.

    I’ll note again that in terms of gratuitous sex and nudity, Game of Thrones is far from unique on cable channels (as noted by many, myself included, Boardwalk Empire for example is identical or possibly worse, which argues against your “D&D are pervs theory”)

    Game of Thrones has a lot of Exposition in general wherein characters will talk about their thoughts as well as to provide the kind of background information that readers would get from reading the character pages in the back of the books, and I think such scenes have as a norm been very well done.

    Because of the show’s (not at all unique) among of gratuitious nudity, it isn’t too surprising that scenes of Exposition and scenes of sex combined to create Sexposition.

    Come to think of it, not sure if I’m forgetting others, but the original novels have an instance of Sexposition- the scene with Theon and the Captain’s Daughter.

  387. Jordan
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    Double-posting again, but what I find funny is that while there have been some pretty cringeworthy sex scenes/gratuitous nudity on Game Of Thrones (thinking of that season 2 Littlefinger scene), the one Marshall commented about is not one of them.

    The idea of soldiers drinking and whoring before battle is something that is mentioned or shown in lots and lots of media, including the original books (there’s a couple of similar scenes I recall when Jaime interacts with other military commanders).

    Also, in the scene itself, we got information on Bronn’s character (to the effect that he is somewhat uncomfortable with being a ruthless killer and wants to put on a pleasanter front), and we got hear and learn a bit about “The Rains of Castamere”- I think the show did a great job making the audience familiar with it leading up to the Red Wedding.

    Now of course, they could have done these things without any of the gratuitous nudity, but I think its rather shortsighted to just dismiss the scene as simply gratuitous nudity.

  388. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: First, did it occur to you that perhaps Outlander wouldn’t “need” sexposition because as the link you posted noted, the work already has a lot of graphic sex scenes?

    It did not. I am quite familiar with all eight books in the Outlander series, having read each a number of times and participated in forums where the author actively discusses all aspect of her work. The vast majority of “graphic sex scenes” in the Outlander saga take place between the happily married hero and heroine and their happily married offspring and their spouses. They may be “graphic” because they feature FFMN, but they otherwise are quite tame, by modern-day standards (no brothel sex, dungeon sex, etc.) The one exception appears in the first book; it’s comparable to the Theon scene last season. If it extends over eight episodes, I’ll certainly have a bone to pick with Mr. Moore.

    I’d be disingenuous if I didn’t acknowledge that my confidence comes from Moore’s acknowledgment that Outlander, which is written by a woman, has built its popularity on “women of a certain age,” unlike ASOIAF, which was written by a man for a primarily male fandom.

    (Again, I spoiler tag for Outlander content since no one expects to come here to stumble upon it.)

  389. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: Now of course, they could have done these things without any of the gratuitous nudity, but I think its rather shortsighted to just dismiss the scene as simply gratuitous nudity.

    I respect your viewpoint, of course, but in saying the Bronn brothel scene was GFFFN (gratuitous full-frontal female nudity), I’m simply echoing the opinion of the director, Mr. Marshall. That’s what makes the comment so damning, regardless of which executive producer ordered it. All the other blathering, my own included, is just that without Marshall’s anecdote. It wasn’t “taste” or “dramatic necessity” or “character development” driving the decision, it was the perv audience. There’s no escaping that. Either you embrace it, tolerate it, or condemn it. I’ve chosen the last.

    Edit to add: It was Ron Moore who equated sexposition with “graphic sex scenes” in his response, not me. It shows that the terms are considered synonymous even though you are correct in terms of the definitions.

  390. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    There probably are, numerically, more sex scenes on the show. I still maintain, though, that arguing against gratuitous nudity, sexposition, double standard nudity from a purist perspective is odd. Not because GoT has the same number of sex scenes as the book (because it probably doesn’t), but because the graphic and sometimes overhanded nature of the sex scenes is consistent with how the book is written. I agree with Jordan that the number might be different, not because D&D’s philosophy on nudity and sex is fundamentally different from GRRM’s, but because there are non-POV like Stannis & Melisandre, Robb & Talisa who would have had sex scenes in the book…but it would have been awkward if Davos or Robb’s mom would have been there for those scenes. I don’t think that pointing to the higher number of sex scenes on the show is principally against GN/GS in the show, but doesn’t have the same stand towards the books.

    On the flip side of that, I don’t think that a legitimate defense of the nudity and sex on the show is “Oh come on, have you read the books? Sex is happening there all the time!” I don’t really care if it’s in the books too. If a criticism of the show’s sex and nudity is, at the same time, a criticism against GRRM’s sex scenes…oh well. Doesn’t change their pointlessness and sometimes bad taste. Which includes the presence of the nude prostitute in that scene with Bronn and Sandor. I was confused as to whether there was full frontal, but I remember thinking her being undressed was silly and unnecessary.

  391. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    1. Do you think all, or most, of the nudity and sex on the show is aimed at “perv audiences?” I condemn the presence of the nude prostitute in the Bronn/Sandor scene. I think the brothel scenes, in most cases, have typically been silly and perhaps justified by producers like the one Marshal talked to as aiming for the “perv audience.” But I find that many of the cases of nudity and sex are not meant to be enjoyed by pervs (the sort of rapey scenes between Drogo and Dany, for example), or are justified as character development (I think Theon with the captain’s daughter was pretty revealing about his character…that he’s kind of an ass). As a fan of the show, I guess it just hurts a little to read about someone dropping the show due to GN/GS, when I don’t think there’s been A TON of that, necessarily.

    2. How do you respond to the comparison between sex and violence? I enjoy an action scene every once in a while. Including in Game of Thrones. Is it so wrong to enjoy a sex scene for the sake of enjoying the sex scene? Is that any more “perverted” than enjoying violence on TV is “sadistic?”

    3. What is the principled difference between a graphic sex scene between a husband and wife in Outlander, and graphic sex in Game of Thrones? Aren’t the same issues of female exploitation, appealing to perv audiences, still there? Are you worried that GoT promoting prostitution with scenes between Theon and Ros? Or is the sexually charged scene with Theon pre-castration more wrong because it has an S&M vibe to it? I’m not sure I understand the distinction.

  392. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    1. Any nudity is heavy handed if it draws attention to itself. The ludicrous Littlefinger brothel scene is the most extreme example, but if you don’t write any scene well enough that the nudity seems organic and understandable, with at least a modicum of restraint (much of this has to do with camera angles and length of time a camera stays focused on the body), you have committed a sin of both taste and construction. In the White Queen, the nudity is mostly female (no surprise) but much of it is one breast, in the bed of a married couple, rather than buck-naked frolics in a brothel. The one “frolic ” is very brief and clearly focuses on the disenchantment of others forced to watch the king’s debauchery in his later years. In the one scene of a Queen in the superior position on her husband, she is in her gown. A similar scene in GOT would be of a naked queen bronco-busting on top (and would have been without the nudity clauses of the big name actors, which I see as a defensive act on their part indicating lack of trust in their showrunners).

    2. There’s probably no time/need here to get into a discussion of the difference between sex and violence as depicted in film. One brings one’s own sensibility to the discussion. One salient point is that the violence in film is known always to be make believe (the abhorrent and illegal snuff films excepted) while nudity is very real—those actors are actually naked, even if they are simulating sex acts. The best evidence that sex on screen is damaging, at least to the actors involved, is the very existence of no-nudity contracts. At the very least, actors requiring them feel such scenes are damaging.

    I know of no “no violence” clauses in any contract, SAG or otherwise. That’s probably enough for me.

    Sex workers (including adult film actors) have different standards and practices.That’s why GOT has hired so many of them (compared to other series). I am perhaps in the minority here in that I don’t watch pornography. Watching sex workers in “legitimate dramas” is not one of my personal viewing choices.

    3. This is another difficult question to answer, particularly when talking with folks who haven’t read the material. A “graphic sex scene” that is a passionate, loving, mutually-satisfying scene of a wedding night that is “graphic” only because it features MFFN is in no way comparable to simulated sex between two naked whores while the fully clothed whore master lectures them. The issue of female exploitation is definitely there. The camera lingers much too long, the scene itself is much too long, the acts are much too clearly portrayed…..the entire scene has been crafted for the male gaze.

    I could go on and on, but anyone who continues to believe nudity on film is no big deal should read the hundreds of column inches devoted to Michael Fassbender’s “bravery” in being fully nude for much of his film Shame, including the discussion of how that nudity deprived him of an Oscar nomination.

  393. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    I realize that I didn’t answer your first question. Do I think all the sex scenes in GOT are aimed at the “perv audience”? I think that D&D feel the solution to complicated problems of plot and character is to “reward” the audience with some good ole’ sex thrown in. That it’s done with a heavy-handed male sensibility is, IMO, the major failing of the show.

  394. Jordan
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    I wondered your thoughts on the Robb and Talisa scene and that between Stannis and Melisandre.

    I wonder because the former (a rare “love scene”) seems like exactly the kind of thing you’d have no problem with in Outlander, and with both scenes, these are things which happened, but are off-screen because a POV character didn’t see them.

    Edit- Also, this is going to sound kind of wrong, but I disagree with your speculation of how the White Queen sex scene would play out in that when you’re talking about sex scenes between main characters in Game of Thrones as opposed to your random prostitute appearances (which I think most people would agree are too many), they’ve generally been fairly tasteful.

    One other thought- I think they go to far (and as you noted, have too much “laciviousness”), but some of the show’s worst sexual content- the two Littlefinger scenes and the scene with Joffrey and the prostitutes- they are quite deliberately repellent in the way a lot of book sex scenes are.

    I mean if the book scenes can be defended as being as they are for artistic reasons, why not the show?

  395. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    The Robb/Talisa scene and the “Look at me” Dany/Khal scene were closest to what I’d term a “successful” sex scene. Is it coincidence that they both feature consensual, loving relationships rather than exploitative sex-for-sale, sex-for-demon baby, sex-for-domination, sex-for-subjugation, sex-for-titillation, sex-for-exposition?

    Don’t think so.

    And, in the interest of full disclosure, I more or less write such scenes for a living. This no doubt influences my judgments and opinions on the subject.

  396. Jordan
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    DH87,

    No argument there. Following up on the edit I added though, the Stannis/Melisandre one isn’t sexy, but it really isn’t supposed to be and doesn’t seem to have been done for titillation either.

    I think it does a good job of illustrating Stannis’ character and relationship with Melisandre- he’s someone who feels that he’s long been unacknowledged, and besides physical attraction, I think he has a desperation that makes me want to believe the prophesies she’s selling.

    And I also thought it was kind of a funny “sequel” in the third season where it is suggested that although she considers him the messiah, Melisandre doesn’t consider Stannis much of a lover.

    Edit- Off of the specific sex topic, while I know a lot of people think otherwise, I’m a fan of Stannis and Melisandre and am very happy with the show’s portrayal of his character, and felt that if anyone was being demonized in the show, it was Melisandre- and my concerns there were somewhat addressed by the third season.

  397. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    That’s an interesting take. I find S. and M. two of the least successful characters, both in the book and in the show. I haven’t spent much time figuring out why, other than, in such a crowded field, you have to be a pretty compelling King (I don’t doubt Stannis’s claim to the Iron Throne) and a pretty spectacular Light-Channeling Priestess to stand out. I felt GRRM had to devote time to Stannis, for reasons of the succession, so matched a pretty uninteresting guy with a strange voodoo lady to keep him company. That wasn’t much for D&D to work with, and the actors haven’t been able to rise above the material they’ve been given. (It doesn’t help that they both look too old to me.)

    If you want to see a truly tormented king, check out the White Queen’s Richard III. He slowly disintegrates after he’s “lost” the two York nephews he placed in the Tower, going from enemy to enemy playing Where’s Waldo, trying to figure out what has happened to them, even though he benefits most from their demise.

  398. Thomas
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Personally I think GRRM has completely misunderstood how inheritance works in Britain, and I gather this from a panel he was in with the young woman who plays Ygritte, Rose Leslie, she is the daughter of an aristocrat, and GRRM joked that she would only get to inherit if she murdered her brothers, but according to the laws of Britain she has no right to inheritance even if she murdered her brothers, then an uncle or a cousin would inherit.

    There are many reasons for this system, which are to many to recount. It’s true though that in royal families today women get to inherit if there are no male heirs left, we have to remember that Queen Victoria inherited after her fathers 3 older brothers left no heirs.

    So some countries had the system that daughters got to inherit if there were no sons in late medieval times.

    And I’m saying GRRM misunderstood it because he based his system on the british system of aristocracy. I’ve never encountered GRRMs system in real life =p.

  399. DH87
    Posted October 17, 2013 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Thomas: Rose Leslie, she is the daughter of an aristocrat, and GRRM joked that she would only get to inherit if she murdered her brothers, but according to the laws of Britain she has no right to inheritance even if she murdered her brothers, then an uncle or a cousin would inherit.

    By and large you are quite correct. Estates that were entailed were subject to the rules of primogeniture (any male inheriting before any female, no matter how distant the relationship). There did exist estates that were not entailed (not titles, but property), as anyone who has read Pride and Prejudice (1813) would know full well. The plot hinges on the fact that Longbourn, the Bennet estate, is entailed away from the five Bennet daughters, while the grand Rosings Park, owned by the aunt of Lizzie Bennet’s suitor, Mr. Darcy, will be inherited by the only daughter, making her a much-sought-after match.

    A real-life example was Margaret Beaufort, the only daughter in the Beaufort family and mother of Henry VII. She was one of the wealthiest women in England in and of her own right and remained not only powerful as a king maker but also as an independent woman, despite four marriages.

  400. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    1. Would agree with a lot of what you say here, especially the criticism of GoT doing sex scenes with a male sensibility. I am very critical of the fact that women lay bare a lot more often than men do, not only on GoT but in shows generally. But gratuitous MALE nudity would solve that problem, and then my biggest complaint about nudity would be resolved. And while I’m not anti-pornography, I don’t want to see it in the middle of GoT.

    I guess I just see it happening a lot less than you do. Your criticism that D&D put in nudity and sex to reward viewers watching exposition is a fine criticism of several scenes. Viserys in the bathtub, Theon and Ros talking about Theon’s backstory, the infamous Littlefinger monologue. But I don’t think it is a good criticism of scenes that just don’t titillate, and I don’t think are supposed to. I don’t think any of Dany’s nudity in the beginning of season 1 was meant to titillate, it instead exposed how vulnerable she was and felt (notice there’s less nudity when she becomes a full-on khaleesi). Joffrey’s scene with the prostitutes is hated on a lot, but I found that to be purposefully unsexy. I was not titillated during the Theon pre-castration scene. I don’t think those scenes were “awards” for the audience, but done for dramatic purposes.

  401. DH87
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    Agreed about the Dany scenes you mention. Nothing involving Joffrey and Theon is anything but repellant.

    D&D don’t do everything wrong—far from it. They do sex wrong some of the time and the show has become the poster child for it. Things have improved (see: the clothed Ros death scene—though other posters disagree with me on that). D&D are capable of learning, and as the show has cemented its position with awards and ratings, perhaps they will feel more confident that it doesn’t need heavy-handed GN to provide visual interest anymore.

    Certainly any suspicion that HBO is micromanaging the show by asking for more sex can be laid to rest. The show is a huge hit and I can’t imagine HBO second-guessing D&D if they do tone things down.

  402. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Some points on violence and nudity…
    -Just because our society is more okay with violence in media, doesn’t mean it actually is more okay. And just because the violence we enjoy is fake, doesn’t mean that glorification of it doesn’t have real world consequences.
    -And the lack of “no-violence” clauses is more a difference in practicality, not principle. People have to agree to get naked, they don’t agree to get shot, as you note. If an actor is against violence in a movie, they probably won’t take up the role (or protest about it later, as Jim Carrey did with Kickass 2).
    -Actors having no-nudity contracts doesn’t prove it’s damaging to them. Even if it is, we can’t generalize that it is therefore damaging for other female actors.Do you think that Oona Chaplin, Esme Bianco, Emilia Clarke or Carice van Houten have been damaged by their nude scenes? People have different comfort levels concerning getting naked in front of a camera, but are not necessarily, on principle, against people getting naked on a show. If I got a job on GoT, I’d sign a no-nudity clause, but that’s a very personal decision, and has no bearing on what I think of Kit Harington or someone else deciding to get nude for the camera.
    -Is your argument against scenes in GoT primarily based on damage to the actors that are nude? Why isn’t it damaging to actors on White Queen or Outlander?
    -Any agreement that someone makes with their employer should be in a contract. It doesn’t show that they are distrustful of D&D specifically. They also signed contracts as to how much they got paid, is that evidence that HBO secretly wants to scam them out of their money?
    -Let’s not assume that, because the actors hired are sex workers, that the scenes they’ll be in will be pornographic. I don’t see scenes of rape at Craster’s Keep, perhaps coming up, as being pornographic. But it probably requires extras who are comfortable being nude. Since acting ability isn’t really required, then it makes sense to hire sex workers. Let’s judge scene by scene, instead of making generalizations about the show.

    The reason I bring up violence is because the comparison is made often, and I think it’s valid. We get into a big fit over D&D or others doing something wrong when they have too much nudity and too much sex in a show. But we seem more okay when they go a bit overboard with violence, even though glorification of violence might be worse than a scene within a drama going into pornographic territory. It was a point someone made earlier, but it didn’t get much traction so I decided to bring it up again.

  403. Thomas
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    True, but we have to remember that Lady Catherine de Bourgh is only nobility by being the daughter on an Earl. So there is no title involved.

    Property is property though, always has been, always will be. In the old days in Britain I am sure property laws were in favour of men. We have to remember that Lizzies family isn’t nobility either (from what I remember). But she has a male cousin, so he inherits.

    When it came to titles though, and the property tied to them. Males always inherited.
    (So in that sense Margaery would have no claim based on Britains system). So either GRRM changed it or he doesn’t understand it. The latter from what I have seen in debates.

  404. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    You might not like the Joffrey and Theon scenes…but why are they repellant? Is it because they are sexy awards for viewers? I don’t think so. I’m not really bringing them up because I like those scenes and think others should too. I just think the criticisms against them and the criticisms against scenes like the Bronn/Sandor scene, the brothel scenes, etc. are dramatically different.

  405. DH87
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen: -Is your argument against scenes in GoT primarily based on damage to the actors that are nude? Why isn’t it damaging to actors on White Queen or Outlander?

    That wasn’t my objection, no. My objection remains that the inclusion of GS and GN in GOT was not a decision of artistic integrity, taste, or loyalty to original material but a calculated move to attract the “perv segment of the audience,” per a director on the show. If The White Queen or Outlander showrunners said the same thing, I’d be disappointed and disenchanted, whether their scenes featuring GS/GN had been done well or poorly. The one simulated nude sex scene in Queen was a brief view of a tired prostitute servicing a wounded soldier in the dirt of a blood-soaked post-battle hospital, amidst wild dogs tearing at the bodies of dead soldiers. It was shocking, but there was nothing titillating, gratuitous—or offensive— about it, I assure you.

    I cited the actors’ contractual restrictions in response to your observation that nudity in film is less of an issue (or should be ) in society when compared to violence. There has been a lot of discussion vis a vis violence in American media and I think one reason such discussion didn’t get much traction here is that it is so widely explored elsewhere.

    And re: the GOT actresses. At least one has said she will not do nudity again (both Bianco and Clarke have been suspected). Even actresses without artistic qualms don’t want to be “overexposed” literally; neither do they want to be typecast for every “slut” role, anymore than they want to be “the fat girl,” “the black girl,” or anything else. Contract restrictions protect against being coerced later, on set, as many actresses have said has happened early in their careers.

    I agree we can’t judge Season Four until we see the scenes, but as I’ve said, I strongly suspect Nina Gold did not want to approach “legitimate” actresses with the role of Shae or Ros, knowing full well that most would be insulted if asked to simulate anal sex play while nude. I suspect she’s made the same decision for Season Four content. Spartacus showrunner Steven DeKnight said he hired soft-porn film stars as extras for the orgy-style sex scenes in that show (and there were many). Doing so prevents many problems with such scenes on set.

  406. DH87
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 2:32 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen: You might not like the Joffrey and Theon scenes…but why are they repellant?

    No. I meant, they were meant to be repellant due to the nature of the characters and the action within the scenes. They were. It wasn’t due to any “treatment” by D&D.

  407. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    DH87: No. I meant, they were meant to be repellant due to the nature of the characters and the action within the scenes. They were. It wasn’t due to any “treatment” by D&D.

    Ah. That seems obvious now. Sorry

  408. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    Sorry I keep commenting. I’m procrastinating on an essay.

    On the contract obligations and violence: I know you brought it up to distinguish violence from sex. I asked the question because that seemed inconsistent with your argument against GoT (not so much THAT there’s nudity, but HOW it executes the nude scenes). If nudity’s practical effects on the actors in the show is the reason why violence is more okay, then that doesn’t really protect White Queen. But if the difference between White Queen and Game of Thrones is the way the nudity is handled (and I do believe you when you say that it is more tame in White Queen), then we’re back to the question of why violence, when handled in the same way GoT handles sex and nudity, is not criticized as much by fans.

    And while the world outside might talk about violence in the media, I don’t think GoT-watchers or people who are into sci-fi/fantasy are as concerned about that issue. That is reflected in GRRM’s comments about his fan complaints about nudity, instead of violence. It reflects the attitudes of people I talk to who decide not to watch the show. If I’m honest with myself, I am far more comfortable with quite a bit of violence on TV and film, but not with nudity and sex. Not sure why that is, or why that is more okay.

  409. Graotron.com.pl
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    The show is getting more and more distant from the books…

  410. Alex Greyjoy
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    DH87,

    I agree we can’t judge Season Four until we see the scenes, but as I’ve said, I strongly suspect Nina Gold did not want to approach “legitimate” actresses with the role of Shae or Ros, knowing full well that most would be insulted if asked to simulate anal sex play while nude.

    Both Sibel Kekilli and Esme Bianco are legitimate actresses. Sibel did some porn when she was young, but she moved from it long ago and actually has awards for acting. Esme Bianco did nude scenes before GoT (she was in a terrible horror movie called Chemical Wedding).

    If you want to see a truly tormented king, check out the White Queen’s Richard III. He slowly disintegrates after he’s “lost” the two York nephews he placed in the Tower, going from enemy to enemy playing Where’s Waldo, trying to figure out what has happened to them, even though he benefits most from their demise.

    The guy who played Richard III was probably the best thing about this show, not including James Frain and David Oakes (who played basically the same character as in Pillars Of The Earth and The Borgias). Everyone else ranged from meh to terrible, and the only reason Max Irons gets work is because he’s Jeremy Irons’ son. I fast forwarded Margaret Beaufort’s scenes because she’s the most annoying and insufferable character in any TV series I’ve ever seen (I’m not sure if it’s the actress or the writing), her hysteria act got old approximately after the first 30 seconds.

    The show also had little to do with the actual history. I mean, how lazy the writers were in order to put the battle of Bosworth FIELD, which took place in August, in the forest and in the snow.

    I also found funny how the Princes in the Tower thing was handled. It were the evil women all along! The evil women also convinced Richard of Gloucester to claim the crown! I don’t think Richard was as evil as Shakespeare’s propaganda piece portraits him, but he wasn’t a saint, by all accounts.

    And the worst thing about The White Queen are the witchcraft scenes. I don’t think that the writers were stupid enough to imply that Elizabeth Woodville and her mom were real witches, but when you put a scene where they are “summoning” the storm together with a scene of a sudden terrible storm that hits Nevilles’ ship, you are trying to imply that there is a connection between those two things. In short, this show started decent but got terrible pretty fast. I wouldn’t take it as an example of anything good, not even the dealing with nudity.
    Hodor Targaryen,

    Actors having no-nudity contracts doesn’t prove it’s damaging to them. Even if it is, we can’t generalize that it is therefore damaging for other female actors.Do you think that Oona Chaplin, Esme Bianco, Emilia Clarke or Carice van Houten have been damaged by their nude scenes?

    Carice van Houten is a successful actress and she also released an album recently. GoT is not the first time she did nudity. Emilia Clarke does Broadway play. Esme Bianco acted, modeled and danced long before GoT. Oona Chaplin is a relative unknown, but I see no reason for her nude scenes on GoT to harm her career.

    I would say that being a terrible actress would harm your career more than being a good actress who occasionally does nude scenes.

  411. DH87
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy: In short, this show started decent but got terrible pretty fast.

    You have a right to your opinions but you can no more criticize The White Queen for its historical accuracy than you can criticize ASOIF for its historical accuracy. It is based directly on three historical novels by Phillipa Gregory, not on any historical narrative. As Ms. Gregory said, They bought her version of the story, not a historical version.

  412. DH87
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Alex Greyjoy,

    As I said before, we can’t know how nudity harms careers because we don’t know what parts an actress tries out, for or expresses interest in, but is not cast. Only she and her manager know that. All we know for sure is that many actresses have no-nudity, no-frontal-nudity, stunt double, and other similar clauses in their contracts and that some actors do, too (NCW and PD, for two). Logic would dictate that there is a reason for those clauses—either vanity (the actress doesn’t think her body is film-worthy) or concern that nudity limits one’s options re: desirable parts.

    Look at a similar situation. Many historical productions now require actresses with natural physical attributes for “accuracy.” This obviously may limit an actress’s marketability for some roles but it may enhance her chances to be cast in other roles. We can think of the nudity thing in the same way: some actresses choose not to have plastic surgery if they think their future lies in historical roles and some choose not to do nudity if they think it will limit their ability to land “serious” roles.

  413. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Thanks for your reply, it was interesting. Unfortunately I’m too busy to keep up with the conversations though. Gone for a few days and there’s a hundred more posts in this thread alone!

    GRRM has created a wonderful Universe.

  414. ervey
    Posted October 18, 2013 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    willas is the heir from the tyrells, while garlan is a knight very similar to loras but broad, in the books is him wearing Renly’s green armor who came along with tywin and the entire tyrell and lannister armies to aid kings landing during the stannis siege. i have read dance with dragons so far and theyre not as important as marillion. marillion only does only one important thing on feast for crows but i dont believe he is that important anyway..

  415. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 19, 2013 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Oddball thought on a Saturday night…

    I don’t know if I have read this previously or not, but does anyone think that D&D have re-introduced Jaime early in KL not only to have more telling scenes with other major/minor players and more intrigue at the PW but to have him specifically try to bond with Joff before the PW? Maybe even attempting to give him some “fatherly” advice? The PW will now be even more disturbing (maybe) in that both of King J’s parents will witness his death.

    Just wondering…

  416. Kevan
    Posted October 27, 2013 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    House Snow,

    im in australia – what book tour?

  1. […] GRRM talks season 4 & beyond: Today at his Capclave 2013 “Not A Panel,” George R.R. Martin talked up Game of Thrones and hinted at what we will and won’t be seeing in the future. The author spoke frankly about the ramifications of changes in the adaptation, and also chatted about what he might have done differently in his own writing. According to the reports from Capclave: There is “a week or so left of filming,” and Martin confirmed the fourth season does pull from the novels beyond A Storm of Swords.  (It seems he may have received some bad info- our sources are saying there is still a month left to go in shooting.) The  problem of the “butterfly effect” in the show’s adaptation was brought up, and he cited the specific example of the show deleting the two older Tyrell sons.. […] […]

  2. […] que contou com George R. R. Martin como principal autor convidado do ano para palestrar. O site Winter is Coming fez um resumão com as principais informações dos fãs que passaram por lá no painel de George. […]

  3. […] Ontem na Capclave 2013, em Washington, o autor George R. R. Martin conversou abertamente sobre sua série de livros e as adaptações feitas pela HBO em Game of Thrones. Aqui vai algumas das coisas mais importantes mencionadas por ele, segundo o site Winter is Coming: […]

  4. […] singer for Littlefinger to blame. A Song of Ice and Fire author George R. R. Martin discussed some of the show’s changes from his books at Capclave 2013, and one character we shouldn’t expect to see next season is the […]


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