David Nutter talks the Red Wedding
By Winter Is Coming on in Press.

David Nutter Michelle Fairley Red Wedding

A new interview with director David Nutter has been published over on the Directors Guild of America website. Nutter talks in detail about the filming of the pivotal Red Wedding scene. Here is an excerpt:

Q: I understand you shot the banquet massacre sequentially. Can you talk about how you built to that climatic moment, and made it feel as shocking as it was?

A: In some respects, I looked at it almost as an opera. It was all about how I set up the tables in the room, how I positioned who was going to sit where. It was important to shoot as much as possible in order so we didn’t have to go back and reshoot something really intense. It was important to focus on what areas of the sequence I would need wide shots for. It was sort of like dominos, where we could keep the tonality going so when we got to the really intense stuff, we were shooting it one after the other and building on top of the drama—building to a climax.

I rehearsed with the actors two or three days before, and then with all the stunt people. It was important for them so they didn’t have to worry about the small things and could focus on the drama of it. It was not unlike a football coach outlining his plays on a chalkboard. Basically, I told everybody, ‘You’re going to sit here, you’re going to sit there, and this is going to happen.’

Be sure to click through to the full interview for more on the Red Wedding, including Nutter’s thoughts on the reaction videos.

Winter Is Coming: A good read. Nutter did a great job with the Red Wedding. Hopefully he will be back for season 5.


107 Comments

  1. Rygar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Master Troll

  2. Hollyoak
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I can still hear Catelyn’s wail of LORD WALTER! as she held the knife to Walda or Waldra or Walden’s throat.

  3. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Hollyoak,

    Walder’s now-ex. wife was Joyeuse of House Erenford I believe. Why can’t he just get together with the Queen of Thorns so they can actually relate to one another? They’re both sharp-witted & frail with age (well, Olenna’s only faking the latter).

  4. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Good interview. He really respects D&D (and vice-versa).

    “Two years ago, I spent three and a half months in Belfast, Croatia, and Iceland. Last year I was gone for four months in Belfast, Morocco and Croatia, so it’s quite involved.”

    So, for two episodes each season, he was filming for 4 months? Wow.

  5. Khyle
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Hodor.

  6. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Sort of along the lines of the topic but further on, here’s my idea for what’ll hopefully become the on-screen resurrection of Lady Stoneheart. Picture the scene; the Brotherhood is riding (or walking, doesn’t really matter) through the Riverlands, reflecting on the tragedy that’s recently occurred. on a stony shore of the Green Fork, what should they find but Catelyn’s lifeless body, the skin grey and decaying. Beric steps forward, preparing to pass on his gift as Thoros begs him in words somewhere along the lines of: “I know what you’re thinking. I can’t let you do it.” Beric refuses to listen, as he knows what his ultimate fate will be. He kisses her, but as he pulls his lips away, all the air in his lungs is visibly sucked out and passed onto her. After collapsing on the rocks, Catelyn opens her eyes once more. Anybody thinking along those lines, or could you go one better? It’s just one of these moments the show can explore in a way the books could not.

  7. Rygar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    Or have Mel do it…

  8. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic:
    Sort of along the lines of the topic but further on, here’s my idea for what’ll hopefully become the on-screen resurrection of Lady Stoneheart. Picture the scene; the Brotherhood is riding (or walking, doesn’t really matter) through the Riverlands, reflecting on the tragedy that’s recently occurred. on a stony shore of the Green Fork, what should they find but Catelyn’s lifeless body, the skin grey and decaying. Beric steps forward, preparing to pass on his gift as Thoros begs him in words somewhere along the lines of: “I know what you’re thinking. I can’t let you do it.” Beric refuses to listen, as he knows what his ultimate fate will be. He kisses her, but as he pulls his lips away, all the air in his lungs is visibly sucked out and passed onto her. After collapsing on the rocks, Catelyn opens her eyes once more. Anybody thinking along those lines, or could you go one better? It’s just one of these moments the show can explore in a way the books could not.

    (Fingers-crossed)
    Last June/July/August we went through several threads discussing possibilities for this scene. Very cool. My only add to your scenario is that Nymeria is present or leads the BwB to Cat’s body.

  9. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I’m in favor of not showing the resurrection. If they do include LS, I want her first appearance to be through the eyes of a Frey as he is about to be hanged. They can show the Brotherhood finding the body and perhaps an argument between Thoros and Beric, but I really want the final scene of season 4 to be as shocking as the epilogue to ‘A Storm Of Swords’.

  10. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    The shows botched up big time with the RW. It sucked major balls, because it could have been great. Now it’s just meh.

  11. Nick_Scryer
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Valyrian Plastic,

    I’m in favor of not showing the resurrection. If they do include LS,I want her first appearance to be through the eyes of a Frey as he is about to be hanged.They can show the Brotherhood finding the body and perhaps an argument between Thoros and Beric, but I really want the final scene of season 4 to be as shocking as the epilogue to ‘A Storm Of Swords’.

    I agree, ending with her just being brought back to life = meh
    Ending with the shock of her being back alive and on a crazy Frey killing war path = Awesome

    Also, I like the idea I see a lot of people posting of moving the end of Brienne’s arc from AFFC up and ending her story for this year there. If they really needed to cut character slots for next year they could even kill Pod :O

  12. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer,

    My thought was for the resurrection to be the first (or at least an early scene) in Episode 10 (being the traditionally-extended clean-up features), with the last scene being the hanging scene from ASOS epilogue . All the recent discussion on the Best Season 3 Death page about Ros having no build-up to her own made me think that there should be at least some reminder of the situation. Otherwise someone may just watch and think: “wait a sec, didn’t she die last season & where’s Beric gone!?” Maybe the first can be left out, but early on in the season they should keep the moment where Arya discovers her body through a wolf dream and gives up any hope of ever seeing her again. That’s surely got to be a must-adapt moment.

  13. Jordan
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Not sure if serious.

  14. loco73
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Well props to David Nutter for having done such a wonderful job with such a terrible scene! Most shows have that “wow” moment, but “Game Of Thrones” gave us tv history. The Red Wedding is nothing short of pure Shakespearean bloody violent terrible fascinating beauty , as raw, vivid and explicit as possible. It is horror and sin unfiltered! The fact that the good folks at HBO and the entire GoT crew were able to to render such a masterful and riveting visual translation of a brilliant literary episode is nothing short of genius!

    Thanks to all parties involved!

  15. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Veltigar,

    Not sure if serious.

    serious

  16. Jordan
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Ok then. Could you please elaborate?…

  17. ATG
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Very much hoping that he returns for season 5.

  18. Rygar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    ATG:
    Very much hoping that he returns for season 5.

    Indeed.

  19. sunspear
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I too don’t want them to show the resurrection. I would like Arya to find the body in the river in the first episode though.

    People need to understand that the idea of zombie Catelyn does not sound interesting to the average viewer. No newbie thinks “Oh yeah, Catelyn, she’s going to be going on an epic Tarantino revenge quest!” unless her first scene is her hanging the Frey.

  20. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I don’t think he really needs to explain it. I’ve read his posts before, when he doesn’t like something he doesn’t use hyperbole. Not that I agree with him, but I just don’t think there’s much to say about it. I thought the Red Wedding was very well done in its TV incarnation. He did not. I thought Hannibal was this years best new series, he did not. Not much to discuss. I trust my opinion is learned just as well as he trusts his own. Nobody’s right and nobody’s wrong.

  21. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Jordan,

    I don’t think he really needs to explain it. I’ve read his posts before, when he doesn’t like something he doesn’t use hyperbole. Not that I agree with him, but I just don’t think there’s much to say about it. I thought the Red Wedding was very well done in its TV incarnation. He did not. I thought Hannibal was this years best new series, he did not. Not much to discuss. I trust my opinion is learned just as well as he trusts his own. Nobody’s right and nobody’s wrong.

    Thanks for the thoughtful post. Just for the record though, I think Hannibal was the best new series of this year (Of the ones I have watched obviously), but I did not find that it was that great.
    Mads Mikkelsen remains a towering giant (I dare say that I preferred his Hannibal over Anthony Hopkins Hannibal). Everytime he comes on he sucks the screen towards him. He’s mesmerizing (that’s why I want him to play Euron. Sadly, that’s never going to happen).
    The problem for Hannibal lies in the scenes without Mads, especially the procedural part and Will’s magic jump which I find trite and unimaginative. If those where on a par with the Hannibal scenes than I would worship the very ground on which the showrunners walked.

  22. The Dragon Demands
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    To be brutally honest I was mildly disappointed with the TV show’s Red Wedding, despite all of the non-book fans raving out it out of sheer shock.

    Specifically the whole sequence with Dacey Mormont was lost. Then again, KNOWING in advance that Dacey Mormont hadn’t been introduced in the TV series, wouldn’t plausibly be at the Red Wedding, eased this up to a large degree in my mind: one of the reasons the RW was so shocking is because so many *named* characters died, not just redshirts in the background of the feast. The TV series could not have hoped to introduce and kill so many characters, I understand that. But still….the “Rains of Castamere” parts were below expectations, though the “Mhysa” followup portions were better (I honestly never mentally pictured them outright *parading* Robb’s desecrated corpse around the Twins on a horse, which retroactively makes more sense and is a great idea).

    We actually didn’t get enough closeup shots of Freys literally cutting the throats of Stark-loyalists and slamming them down into the very food the Freys had served them.

    But yeah….the death-run of Dacey Mormont is this single specific moment seared into my mind: the “hope spot” that out of all the guards she is the one who manages to run all the way to the doors without being hit — this big slow motion run — and the doors open in front of her to reveal Bolton and his men in full armor and for a fraction of a second she thinks they’re here to help again the Freys….and then Roose Bolton drives an axe into her gut, wordlessly announcing that he is fully involved in the betrayal. It’s this layered “oh crap” moment because not only is Dacey’s “hope spot” crushed, it’s a second “oh god, not only are the Freys in on this, *the Boltons* have ALSO betrayed us!”*

    But because the TV version has Roose smirking at Catelyn, it’s a double betrayal of Bolton and Frey simultaneously, instead of the staggered effect in the books.

    I mean overall I was happy with it, the actual action surrounding Robb himself and Catelyn herself, all of that was fine.

    What I’m saying is that the other Northern lords were treated like redshirts in the TV series but had names in the book – I mean they bothered to cast Wendel Manderly but didn’t give him speaking lines nor even introduce him as “Wendel Manderly”?

  23. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Disagree with Will’s jumps being trite. But to each their own.

  24. Jordan
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    The Dragon Demands,

    I agree with what you are saying, but my point was that if someone is going to post that the scene “sucked balls”, they’d better provide specifics.

    I also think that the scene filmed can never be good as the scene in one’s head, and that while the show version differs from the show in some ways, that doesn’t make it bad.

    For instance, I think in its own way, having Greywind and the Stark host slaughtered like sitting ducks works just as well as the book version in which they get more of a “heroic last stand”.

    I find a cruel and appropriate “reality ensues” in the show’s version.

    Similarly, it is very popular in fan art for Robbwind to be shown on a throne (even an Iron Throne look alike) with a certain amount of dignity, and I like these very much. However, the show’s scene really works despite being very different.

  25. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: Mads Mikkelsen remains a towering giant (I dare say that I preferred his Hannibal over Anthony Hopkins Hannibal). Everytime he comes on he sucks the screen towards him. He’s mesmerizing (that’s why I want him to play Euron. Sadly, that’s never going to happen).
    The problem for Hannibal lies in the scenes without Mads, especially the procedural

    Agree with your perception of Mikkelsen, and the series ” Hannibal”, in general.
    Having this actor in a GoT role would definitely raise the bar, whether the role
    be Euron Greyjoy or Hizdahr zo Loraq ,or some other major character. Like my
    wish for Brendan Gleeson for the Randyll Tarly role, neither of these actors
    named, would likely appear.

  26. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Veltigar,
    Ok then.Could you please elaborate?…

    I’ll try to give you some of my main grieves (it’s been a while so I will not really go into specifics).

    1) No Stark bannermen. The carnage amongst Robbs friends and allies was one of those details that made the RW a great read. For this I give the show a pass though, since I get that it isn’t practical to devote screentime to those smaller characters.
    2) “The Lannisters send their regards.” I’m not going to bitch about the change in the actual line (don’t like it, but I get it). Just about the actual scene. The way Roose Bolton steps in, stabs Robb and then steps out of the picture is just so… staged. It lacks the Bond-villainesque quality of a real Roose Bolton betrayal.
    3) Talissa, she was a horrible character when she was still amongst the living, but boy did she annoy me when she died (Although props to D&D for naming the baby Ned, the only thing that could have beaten that is if they had named the baby Sean). It was just so obvious that they had her die there in that particular way for the sake of a cheap shock (and I’m not in any way squeamish, I like horror when it’s done right).
    4) Even more Idiot points for Robb (sure bring the girl that deeply offended this fickle old bastard into his lair) and Cat (Why the hell did you go for the Frey wife? Why? She could have gone for the Old bastard, but she chose that completely useless girl as a hostage).
    5) The inclusion of the BF. What was the point of having him there? Or having him escape because of a lucky bathroom break…
    6) Lack of build up. Walder Frey wasn’t nearly awful enough to them before the carnage. In the books it seemed like this petty man had decided to take revenge on Robb by bullying him and by throwing the worst wedding party ever and then it all went to all different kinds of crazy. Here it was just “cool party bro”, start music, killing, the end. Also, on a larger level the way their storyline was handled in season 2 and 3 was awful. They just did not have enough time to leave a proper mark.
    7) Cat taking Walders wife. Not only did it earn her idiot points I also hated the fact that they cut out Jingle bells. Cutting the throat of the mentally disabled son and jester of Walder was a much better close to the madness of the RW and it showed that Walder was really that kind of a monster (Let’s face it she was wife nr. 8 in a world were women aren’t really important to men like Frey. His son, his own flesh and blood though)
    8) The Roose dash at the beginning of the slaughter. ROOSE BOLTON DOES NOT RUN, he’s calm and in control.
    9) Personally, I didn’t like Catelyn just standing there at the end of the scene (even when her throat got cut!!!). She should have howled and kicked and ripped her own flesh to pieces. That way the Freys could have mercy killed her like in the books and not just kill her out of sheer stupidity (she was perfectly tranquil, just take her hostage you damn fools).
    10) No one trying to free Grey Wind and going down like a badass (the show get’s a pass here for the same reason as in 1).

    Things I did like:
    _Roose’s creepy smile
    _Walder’s dialogue
    _Robb giving up and falling on the ground
    _ the fact that one of the worst storylines of the show was finally rapped up.

  27. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t read through the entire interview, but I get the operatic perception to the
    wedding. No doubt there was a buildup to tragedy.

  28. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Okay after some thought I didn’t give you an answer really. I can’t really defend Will’s leaps of logic to you because your predisposed. My reaction was “this is different how the protagonist actually commits the murder in the opening scene”. I guess I found it more visceral and involving than another crime procedurals which simply go through the evidence. Thomas Harris’ novels don’t focus to much on these details either. They are more character centric and sometimes reach surreal heights. I think the procedural aspect is sacrificed for character development and Bryan Fuller it seems to me, is 100% behind that. Much of the great characterization of Hannibal, Will, Crawford, Freddie, Bela, Beverly et al would be compromised if more of the plot focused on the investigation. You can also see how the writers use Will’s ability as a plot point for his arc and how it affects the storyline of other characters as well. To me that “triteness” is integral. I wonder if we will see a more realistic presentation of forensic evidence in the series now that Will’s locked up? The only thing that can get Will out of his predicament is the detective skills of his former colleagues. The real investigation has begun. At least that’s what I hope they do. Bryan Fuller is not a trite show runner he’s up there with Vince Gilligan if you ask me, so I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.
    In the end it comes down to either accepting the preternatural abilities of Will or you don’t.

  29. Jordan
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Thanks for the response.

    Just wanted to comment on one thing quickly, since it was one of the things you noted.

    If I remember correctly, in the books, Jeyne Westerling speaks of wanting to name her sons Eddard and Brandon, so the idea of Robb’s wife naming a child Ned and “Ned Stark died twice” is actually not original to the show.

  30. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: Agree with your perception of Mikkelsen, and the series ” Hannibal”, in general.
    Having this actor in a GoT role would definitely raise the bar, whether the role
    be Euron Greyjoy or Hizdahr zo Loraq ,or some other major character. Like my
    wish for Brendan Gleeson for the Randyll Tarly role, neither of these actors
    named, would likely appear.

    Probably :( But then again you never know. I never thought that I’d see Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson on the small screen and here they are playing the leads in the first season of True Detectives (which will probably be a very strong contender for best new show of 2014).

  31. sunspear
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    I agree with what you are saying, but my point was that if someone is going to post that the scene “sucked balls”, they’d better provide specifics.

    Exactly. The Red Wedding was the most popular, buzzy, and critically acclaimed non-Breaking-Bad hour of television this year. You need something stronger than ‘it missed something I like in the books’ to critcize it.

    Veltigar,

    Well if we’re going to get into Hannibal, I do like the show. The acting is great and the cinematography is fantastic. I don’t really have you’re problem with Will’s trance state (although they went straight into fantasy when he figured out Abigail killed that guy).

    BUT

    I hate how terrible the police are at their jobs in that show.
    Police let that guy who Abigail killed sneak into the house?
    Two security guards get overpowerd by Eddie Izzard?
    Abigail leaves a psych ward to dig up a body halfway across the country?
    No security camera’s at the hospital?
    ANYONE believe’s Will intentionally led the police to a ton of body parts in his home?
    Crawford suspects Abigail worked with Hobbes but doesn’t check her alibi for ten episodes?

    Bryan Fuller needs to spend less time on food porn and more time on his plot.

  32. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Veltigar,

    Thanks for the response.

    Just wanted to comment on one thing quickly, since it was one of the things you noted.

    If I remember correctly, in the books, Jeyne Westerling speaks of wanting to name her sons Eddard and Brandon, so the idea of Robb’s wife naming a child Ned and “Ned Stark died twice” is actually not original to the show.

    Ha, priceless XD One of the only things I thought they added and liked turns out to come from the books. I should have known.

  33. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    True. I also viewed and impressed as well, with the promo for the Woody Harrelson pilot.

    Since John Noble has taken leave of ” Fringe “, I hope he does the honour of accepting
    the role of ” the Kindly Man “. Arya and he would make a distinctive pair to watch,
    interact with each other.

  34. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Hmmm I sense a lot of “book vs show” in your critique.

  35. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Veltigar,

    Snip

    We’ll have to wait for the second season. I’ll certainly watch it and even if it does exactly the same as season 1 I’ll still greatly enjoy it. However, I do hope they cut out even more of the procedural aspect (if you have those imo trite magic jumps than use them to delve into the good parts) and focus more on the relationships and the mindsets of the character. That’s where Hannibal’s main strength lies, if I want to watch a bullshit procedural I’ll just look at some CSI crap.

    sunspear:
    I hate how terrible the police are at their jobs in that show.
    Police let that guy who Abigail killed sneak into the house?
    Two security guards get overpowerd by Eddie Izzard?
    Abigail leaves a psych ward to dig up a body halfway across the country?
    No security camera’s at the hospital?
    ANYONE believe’s Will intentionally led the police to a ton of body parts in his home?
    Crawford suspects Abigail worked with Hobbes but doesn’t check her alibi for ten episodes?

    Bryan Fuller needs to spend less time on food porn and more time on his plot.

    It would be a shame to see the food porn go (but I’ve always defended the food porn in ASOIAF to, so perhaps I’m not a good judge here), but you are right about the sheer stupidity of the cops. However, it seems that that comes with the territory. I don’t think I have ever seen a show which such strong procedural elements in it that had cops with working brains.

  36. Jordan
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Huh. Edited my post but lost everything I added because I submitted too late.

    My additional thoughts were as follows:

    1. I don’t really understand/agree with the idea that it was stupid for Robb to bring his wife to the wedding, in that I can totally see Walder Frey being pissed off if he didn’t bring her (“What, she was too good to show up here?”), and it’s not like Robb survived in the book because he was more polite.

    I think from a narrative perspective, Jeyne Westerling simply couldn’t be at the wedding because her mother was plotting with Tywin and Jeyne was an unwitting pawn. Talisa on the other hand was free to attend the wedding, and when the early pictures of her there came out, that was the first thing that really disproved that “Lannister Honeypot” theory.

    2. I think the Blackfish was there for two reasons. First, to “fill in” for Robb’s missing bannermen. Second, to add some suspense to the proceedings for viewers who read the books.

    3. I think having Lady Frey substitute for Jinglebell was a good choice in that in both cases, Catelyn kills someone who she previously sympathized with.

    4. The fact that the wedding seems pleasant up until the slaughter is one of those things that is “different but not necessarily worse” than the book. I think the build up works in the book because it reads as fairly subtle, especially because Catelyn’s POV chapters are always pretty gloomy and pessimistic.

    If the show tried to do the same thing, it would probably seem like too obvious of a trap.

  37. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Veltigar,

    Hmmm I sense a lot of “book vs show” in your critique.

    Like you can see I gave the show a pass for things they couldn’t possibly do as well as the book could (e.g. the numerous Stark bannermen).
    However, the rest of my points are all about things the show could do as well or even better. The Talissa scene was horrible, the inclusion of the BF unnessecary and I don’t know why on earth they had Roose Bolton making a dash like a ballerina. Sometimes I did indeed make a comparison to the source material (e.g. the build up), but since this is an adaptation (and since I take the limits of the medium into account) that is fair game.

  38. sunspear
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    3. Talisa was a MUCH better character in the show. Here she had an actual personality.
    4. Cat couldn’t kill Walder because he was the only one who could call off the attack. Plus, he isn’t as frail as he is in the books, he could fight her off, especially since she has an arrow sticking out of her back.
    5. What does having him their detract from the story.
    8. So you think it would be better if he casually walked away from the raining arrows and flailing swords.
    9. Who would they be taking Cat hostage for? They have Edmure, the North is destroyed, and Frey probably thinks he has Edmure. Oh, and Lysa proved she doesn’t care.

    As far as Mikkelson goes, I don’t think he’s the right type of psychopath to play Euron. And his accent is kind of terrible. Maybe he could be Moqorro if they whitewash him?

  39. Enfield
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Why does everyone think Talisa’s death was done solely for a “cheap shock”? I think there was an eloquent post on this site about all the heavy symbolism and subtext behind that. On the in-story level it is the clearest message possible from the Freys to their enemies, about what they are, why they’re doing this, and how they plan on operating in the future. On another level, Robb and his wife were pretty much the only ones trying to create life from a place of love, out of all the dozens of characters. So when Robb is seeing her die, he’s seeing everything he has fought for (his own happy ending) die with her. The fact that she names the baby Ned reminds the viewer of the last generation, who won their rebellion and had a chance for a happy ending (more or less). To me that makes it more tragic, and makes up for the loss of some peripheral characters that were in the books (Dacey Mormont hit me hard for some reason).

    Also, because they changed how Catelyn met her end (the book version would have been too much btw), the dominant image of the Red Wedding changed. In the books you remember Catelyn tearing her face and losing her mind. In the show you remember Talisa getting stabbed.

    I understand if people preferred one or the other, but it seems like some who preferred the books write it off as a cheap shock. Of course it was shocking, but it definitely wasn’t cheap.

    Edit: Here’s the excellent analysis by Tyler Davis that I probably just butchered: http://winteriscoming.net/2013/06/episode-29-the-rains-of-castamere-analysis/

  40. Jordan
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Enfield,

    That’s very well put. I’ll also add that I “like” Catelyn’s death in the show- instead of going totally nuts like she does in the books (which works in its own way- maybe not on screen though), she kind of goes into a trance and is “dead” long before she actually is killed.

    sunspear,

    I don’t think that Talisa was necessarily a great character (I liked the “idea” of Talisa and think she worked well in the third season, but was not great when originally introduced) .

    However, even if her character was not well done, I don’t think that really has to do with whether her death scene was emotionally effective- which I think it was.

  41. Hounded
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    The best new show of the year is Masters of Sex. Much better than Hannibal IMO

  42. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    1.I don’t really understand/agree with the idea that it was stupid for Robb to bring his wife to the wedding, in that I can totally see Walder Frey being pissed off if he didn’t bring her (“What, she was too good to show up here?”), and it’s not like Robb survived in the book because he was more polite.

    Walder Frey would be offended either way, although I do feel he would be more offended by her being there, rubbing their happiness under his nose (you know what they say out of sight, out of mind).
    The thing is though that by taking his bride with him, Robb placed his bride and unborn child in a very dangerous situation (basically at Lords Walders mercy). Since Lord Frey would be pissed either way, he should have left them behind, instead of putting them in danger.

    Jordan:
    2.I think the Blackfish was there for two reasons.First, to “fill in” for Robb’s missing bannermen.Second, to add some suspense to the proceedings for viewers who read the books.

    He wasn’t really there as a substitute since he didn’t get killed or captured like the Stark bannermen. And I don’t really think that anyone even doubted that the BF would survive the RW (I know I didn’t, but then again I have a theory for which he’s still needed). But even if anyone doubted, he went to take a piss that early, of course from that point you knew they weren’t going to throw some random Blackfish-kills-Freys-will-taking-a-leak-scene in there.

    Jordan:
    3.I think having Lady Frey substitute for Jinglebell was a good choice in that in both cases, Catelyn kills someone who she previously sympathized with.

    Random wife number 8 vs. kindhearted, harmless jester son?
    One of the things I liked about the jester is that he was the only complete innocent in the entire Twins (the Rosby Freys were sent away without being informed).
    Random wife nr. 8 could have spoken out and warned the Starks (I know not very likely to happen but she could have done it), so I didn’t feel nearly as much regret for her being killed.
    The jester on the other hand was the only one who was not in on it, because he couldn’t grasp the concept of a RW. And that’s the guy Cat grabs and kills because her Tully honor demands it. The killing of the innocent jester was a very strong symbol for the final loss of innocence Merciless LS, something that was less apparent in wife number 8.

    But even if you just accepted wife number 8… Why didn’t she go for the old man himself on the show? The time she took to drag random wife number 8 from underneath the table she could have taken the old man hostage on the show.

    Jordan:
    4.The fact that the wedding seems pleasant up until the slaughter is one of those things that is “different but not necessarily worse” than the book.I think the build up works in the book because it reads as fairly subtle, especially because Catelyn’s POV chapters are always pretty gloomy and pessimistic.

    If the show tried to do the same thing, it would probably seem like too obvious of a trap.

    I think that the same approach could have worked for the show. I mean what did the Unsullied know of the Freys? Only two things: Walder is a perv and the Freys are dorks who wear stupid hats. You expect people like that to spit in your soop and to call you names when they know they can get away with it. You do not expect those weasles to massacre you. The fact that they didn’t take their petty revenge to me seemed more suspicious than them being a dick about the broken oath in the books.

  43. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Hounded:
    Veltigar,

    The best new show of the year is Masters of Sex. Much better than Hannibal IMO

    Haven’t seen that one yet. So, I can’t comment on that. From the new shows I have watched Hannibal is the best. But I’ll try and check MoS when I find the time.

  44. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    See I loved that moment. Bolton was almost like a serpent. When she slapped him he recoiled and sprang away to avoid the rain of arrows that was to come. He has these predator like reflexes. Sorry I disagree
    And Catelyn ripping her flesh would have been way too over the top. Some things work better on paper than they do on film.

  45. Rygar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Forgive me if I’m wrong, only watched the episode once and I don’t remember Bolton bolting so to speak, but wouldn’t that make sense? He just killed the KitN and was unarmed, even though armored. I would bolt too. What if a Northman grabbed a sword from a Frey and then went after him? Highly unlikely given the circumstance, but still a possibility.

  46. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Veltigar,
    3. Talisa was a MUCH better character in the show. Here she had an actual personality.

    The kindhearted noblewoman who leaves her country behind, because she can’t accept slavery, and decides she wants to nurse foreign soldiers (absolutely bonkers she should have been killed and raped before Robb ever laid eyes on her) personality? Because that’s just plain BS, unsuited for the world. The character is a horrible cliche.

    But my main beef with Talissa (except for stealing valuable screentime from Cat) is the fact that they used her to create some BS love story on the show. The book counterpart of their relationship was much more interesting, because Robb didn’t love her there. He deflowered her in a moment of weakness and then married her because he thought that was what his father would have done. He knew he fucked up and he didn’t even have the comfort of doing it for love (which is the generic excuse for such mistakes in fiction). He lost his kingdom because of his decency. A small but significant detail.

    sunspear:
    Veltigar,
    4. Cat couldn’t kill Walder because he was the only one who could call off the attack. Plus, he isn’t as frail as he is in the books, he could fight her off, especially since she has an arrow sticking out of her back.

    ? Don’t get your point. If she takes him hostage he has to call off the attack, while with random wife nr. 8 he could just go “Yolo, I’ll take a new one”. If he doesn’t call it off, well it’s a lot more satisfying to kill the perpatrator than just some random sidekick.

    And the arrow didn’t bother Cat when she dragged the girl from under the freaking table. With a knife at his throat/kidney/… Walder would have been at her mercy.

    sunspear:
    Veltigar,
    5. What does having him their detract from the story.

    It takes up valuable screentime, that could be used for people who actually do something during the RW.

    sunspear:
    Veltigar,
    8. So you think it would be better if he casually walked away from the raining arrows and flailing swords.

    Roose is a Bond Villain, that’s exactly how a good Bond villain would act (although I would settle for Roose removing himself before that ridiculous slap). Especially, in a fight that is as one sided as in the show (in the books you might have had a point, but in the show the Stark bannermen were dealt with almost immidiatley).

    sunspear:
    Veltigar,
    9. Who would they be taking Cat hostage for? They have Edmure, the North is destroyed, and Frey probably thinks he has Edmure. Oh, and Lysa proved she doesn’t care.

    Lord Walder has a shitload of creepy sons. Marry one of them to Cat and through him Lord Walder get’s an even better claim on Riverrun or he could even go for WF.

    On top of that why do you think the Freys take prisoners in the books? Because they know that some people would still be willing to fight after the RW to avenge their dead family and friends. By taking hostages like Cat they can use an extra threat to subdue these threats.

    sunspear: r

  47. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    I have a feeling D & D didn’t want to take a risk and have a mentally handicapped man killed by one of the good guys. It would have overshadowed Cat’s death for some viewers. The Frey wife makes sense because it reinforces the dread a thousand fold that there is no walking out of there since Lord Walder is willing to give up his own wife for his revenge. The mere fact Joyeuse was Walder’s wife automatically distances her to the audience. When Cat holds the knife to her throat were not concerned with the wife at all. But her holding a knife to a disabled man’s throat? It detracts from her trying to save Robb. Our culture is sensitive and D & D did
    not want to risk it. Hell , I can see some bigwig at HBO say “you’re going to do WHAT?”
    Choosing the wife over Jinglebell was a smart move.

  48. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Veltigar,
    As far as Mikkelsen goes, I don’t think he’s the right type of psychopath to play Euron. And his accent is kind of terrible. Maybe he could be Moqorro if they whitewash him?

    Mads as Euron 1: http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32500000/got-game-of-thrones-32555722-500-650.png

    Mads as Euron 2: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/324/6/a/mads_mikkelsen_as_euron_greyjoy_by_siriuscrane-d5lm5lr.jpg

  49. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Veltigar,
    See I loved that moment. Bolton was almost like a serpent. When she slapped him he recoiled and sprang away to avoid the rain of arrows that was to come. He has these predator like reflexes. Sorry I disagree

    Seriously, rewatch that scene. He didn’t even need to run, he could have just casually strolled away (which would incidently also be more in tune with the kind of villain Bolton is but whatever). Have you seen how long it takes them to start stabbing Talissa and only when there done with that they start shooting. Furthermore there is the seeting itself. Even Cat, the target that sits closest to him sits more than far enough away for a decent shooter to easily hit her without harming him. All the others are placed at a much greater distance.

    Joshua Atreides:
    Veltigar,
    And Catelyn ripping her flesh would have been way too over the top. Some things work better on paper than they do on film.

    Perhaps you are right, the ripping of the flesh part would be a little bit over the top. But she should have kicked and wailed and not stand there like a freaking tree I have a hard time reconciling Stoic-Cat with LS. If they cut LS, I’ll drop that point of criticism entirely

  50. Veltigar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Veltigar,
    I have a feeling D & D didn’t want to take a risk and have a mentally handicapped man killed by one of the good guys. It would have overshadowed Cat’s death for some viewers. The Frey wife makes sense because it reinforces the dread a thousand fold that there is no walking out of there since Lord Walder is willing to give up his own wife for his revenge. The mere fact Joyeuse was Walder’s wife automatically distances her to the audience. When Cat holds the knife to her throat were not concerned with the wife at all. But her holding a knife to a disabled man’s throat?It detracts from her trying to save Robb. Our culture is sensitive and D & D did
    not want to risk it. Hell , I can see some bigwig at HBO say “you’re going to do WHAT?”
    Choosing the wife over Jinglebell was a smart move.

    Some people found stabbing a pregnant woman multiple times in the belly a disturbing visual that detracted from the rest of the RW. But they went through with it anyways. I mean this is HBO, aren’t they there for pushing boundaries?

    I think that how this series looks into the atrocities of war is one of it’s very strong points. It has not shied away from killing children, pregnant woman, horses and direwolves. Why would they shy away from a disabled person dying? The reality of war is that they are also often the victim of mindless violence and random killings. So, why not show it.

  51. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Why? Woman sees her first born, her believed only son killed. All nobility, all humanity ends. She goes catatonic. In fact she is dead inside before her actual death. Perfect for Lady Stoneheart.

    I’ve watched that scene a million times. I’m not going to get some epiphany that makes me hate it. I thought the dash was a perfectly delivered telegraph to the audience indicating “oh boy what the fuck is about to happen”. They even filmed in a long shot from a higher angle to show the whole hall. Great staging. As soon as Bolton got to the other side, the signal is given and Lame Lothar stabs Talisa. I’ll grant you some angles and editing could have tightened the scene so the spatial relationships were more consistent but I think it added to the chaos of the moment. In the book we hear a grandiose staged massacre almost balletic in terms of how GRRM described the madness. But in the show we got sheer butchery in the content and in the visual aesthetic.

  52. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Forgive me if I’m wrong, only watched the episode once and I don’t remember Bolton bolting so to speak, but wouldn’t that make sense?He just killed the KitN and was unarmed, even though armored.I would bolt too.What if a Northman grabbed a sword from a Frey and then went after him?Highly unlikely given the circumstance, but still a possibility.

    I thought RB went running because he needed to retrieve a sword or dagger (remember they weren’t allowed to have weapons in the dining hall) then run back to gut his king.

    On another note, I found it odd that the post-bedding ceremony violence didn’t start until after BF returned from his potty break. Weren’t the hosts watching the BF (and the whole wedding party) closely? It wasn’t a random, sudden event…it was well planned. Surely, the signal (the hall doors closing) could have waited until the BF returned, right? Very odd. And the BF just disappeared.

  53. Joshua Atreides
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Because when killing off a main character you don’t take the risk of demeaning their death by having them kill a disabled person. People would be focusing on Cat killing a handicapped man instead of mourning her. If the Freys killed Jinglebell (even if they kind of did, indirectly) the audience would hate the Freys. While some might hate Cat for killing Joyeuse, others lumped her with the Freys. Therefore Cat killing her seems the reasonable thing to do. But Jinglebell is a different story altogether. It would have villainized Cat and from a writer’s perspective it makes perfect sense.

  54. Rygar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I thought RB went running because he needed to retrieve a sword or dagger (remember they weren’t allowed to have weapons in the dining hall) then run back to gut his king.

    And that concludes Rygars DUH moment for the evening.

  55. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: And the BF just disappeared.

    I believe Brynden Tully excused himself, to ” take a piss ” . I was quite relieved to
    have him exit. With the re-worked script of limited RiverRun footage, I watched
    to see if his presence at the wedding would spell an end. I would have preferred
    he remained at the Tully Keep, holding onto whatever or whomever remained.
    I suppose that was moot, since Jeyne and her mother were not there, at the keep/
    estate.

    I do recall Bolton having a word with Walder sr., on a rise
    overlooking the exterior fighting. There was a moment where
    I thought Roose commenting on his having to leave the hall
    for a moment, to fetch something. As he was already wearing
    his Mail and armed with a knife, I reasoned that he meant to
    find his sword. I was a bit disgusted with Walder at the moment,
    and did not focus much on all that was being done in the background.

  56. GeekFurious
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    Bolton bolted to avoid getting hit by the crossbow bolts.

  57. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: I believe Brynden Tully excused himself, to ” take a piss ” . I was quite relieved to
    have him exit. With the re-worked script of limited RiverRun footage, I watched
    to see if his presence at the wedding would spell an end. I would have preferred
    he remained at the Tully Keep, holding onto whatever or whomever remained.
    I suppose that was moot, since Jeyne and her mother were not there, at the keep/
    estate.

    Yes, but that is where I agree with Veltigar and others. Wtf was BF doing at the wedding if only to exit at just the right time? (Did he know something?) Once again, the showrunners introduced a major change but did nothing with it! Not that the episode was bad, but that storyline logic and character “exit” flaw was inexcusable.

  58. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious:
    Bolton bolted to avoid getting hit by the crossbow bolts.

    Bolton bolted twice. The first time (pre-kill) to retrieve a weapon, the second time (post-kill) to get the hell out of the storm of quivers & bolts.

  59. The Dragon Demands
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    1) No Stark bannermen. The carnage amongst Robbs friends and allies was one of those details that made the RW a great read. For this I give the show a pass though, since I get that it isn’t practical to devote screentime to those smaller characters.

    Yes. Again, my whole point is that Robb’s supporters were reduced to redshirts, but I ALSO give them a pass due to the time constraints of a TV adaptation: I miss Dacey Mormont, but it would have taken so much screentime to even introduce her, before this episode, that it wouldn’t have been pragmatic.

    2 – I didn’t have a problem with the way Roose stepped in to finish off Robb; the “staging” felt a bit rushed? Well he was rushing in to kill him – I didn’t *particularly* mind that. Also I have no problem with slightly altering his line: “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” is a famous line, but would only have confused the newbies that Jaime was somehow involved in it. As for Stoneheart, I simply don’t think that all of her hate for Jaime hinged upon the wording of a single line Roose Bolton said; after all Jaime is included in “the Lannisters” — small change just for clarity, I like them both, honestly don’t care. Plus Roose’s delivery of the line was fun.

    3 – Talisa was indeed annoying….not in the actual episode I guess…but I changed my mind when I heard Richard Madden explain in an interview that they wanted Talisa to die at the Red Wedding so fans wouldn’t harbor romantic illusions about her child growing up to avenge Robb and Ned….which book fans did for a long time about Jeyne Westerling. This is reality, not a romance. So on second thought, good to kill her now.

    Problem might be in the execution – STARTING the massacre with her put too much focus on Talisa, even today I seen noobs who focus on “stabbed pregnant woman”…MORE than “dear god they nailed the head of Robb’s wolf onto his body” (thought this is because it was spread across two episodes).

    At least they didn’t have her dramatically have a final cheesy line. Just died right away.

    So while mildly unusual, in retrospect it may have been the smarter move to just killer her now.

    4-….leading to the confusion of “why would you outright bring Talisa to the Twins, wouldn’t this insult the Freys MORE? Then again it’s not as if they tried to present it as the reason the entire betrayal happened: Frey had already made up his mind to betray him long before. I try not to fixate on that.

    5) The inclusion of the BF. What was the point of having him there? Or having him escape because of a lucky bathroom break…

    I’ve figured this out: the TV series wanted to present it as a “shock”, the entire Red Wedding as a shock. The books…have a growing sense of dread that something will go wrong, you just don’t anticipate the sheer scale of it. That, and the book does a good job of establishing, once they’re at the Twins, that NO ONE breaks Guest Right: Robb breathes a sigh of relief once Walder acknowledges Guest Right. So he was still shocked. Moreover, consider that the other….major royal death, was moved to be AFTER the Red Wedding.

    Also, by this point in the books they state, outright state, that Robb has functionally lost the war and has no hope of victory – his plan now is to retreat to the North, kick the ironborn out, rebuild his powerbase, and settle in for years of warfare in the hopes that through attrition they can convince the Lannisters that attacking them isn’t worth it.

    Why, then, would they instead present that Robb has a small chance of successfully attacking Casterly Rock? All to build up in the TV-first viewers the idea that they still might be able to fix this….in order to set them up for the shock of the RW, that no it won’t.

    Thus, in the books, the whole reason Robb left Blackfish at Riverrun is because he wasn’t sure if the Twins was safe. This action wouldn’t make sense in the TV series, which didn’t play up the growing dread, but instead wanted to lull people into thinking “all is well”. If Robb went ALONE to the Twins, the audience would suspect he could die. But the ENTIRE Stark-army group of characters? Robb-Catelyn-Edmure-Blackfish? That was meant to lull viewers into thinking it couldn’t happen.

    So they have Blackfish be present, then fortuitously escape….I don’t *particularly* mind so long as he’s instantly back in Riverrun at the start of Season 4. They wanted to preserve the shock? Fine.

    Also….books can do things that TV shows can’t. A book can build up the dread about Frey WITHOUT giving away that it’s a COMPLETE betrayal, not just slighting Robb. I wonder…if the TV show tried to do this, it might have come off as too OBVIOUS that it was a trap, so maybe it was better that they kept it as a complete shock.

    7 – Well, “Cat taking Walder’s wife and not Walder” — that’s really the same thing as the books “Taking Jinglebell and not Walder”…..there were crossbowmen covering the entire room from the balcony, and she grabbed whoever was closest to her. Running across the open space and table to get at Walder, the crossbowmen would have gunned her down; I suspect they had instructions to make sure to focus on the area around Walder himself. Not a problem to me.

    9 – Crazy Catelyn Death vs Immobilized In Utter Horror Catelyn – opinions vary. For all we know the Crazy Catelyn death scene might have come off as too silly in a TV version – the book version worked because it was narrated from Catelyn’s POV.

    10) Not freeing Grey Wind — I think they wanted to emphasize the animal cruelty, that even in the books, taking down a direwolf with a squad of crossbowmen and hunting dogs is ridiculously UNFAIR: and that Grey Wind managed to take a few out with him was a moment in badass for him. But if he HAD killed a few, wouldn’t that DEemphasize how unfair and lopsided the ambush that killed him was? So visually, this might not have worked in a TV series.

    I don’t think Robb “gave up” so much as the dagger through the heart instantly killed him, so he fell like a sack of flour.

  60. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I’m as clueless as you, lol ! Apparently the writers included him at the wedding,
    with ugly Frey maids batting their eyelashes at him. By his presence, I considered
    that the writers considered him fair game for the upcoming melee.

    So far Brynden’s onscreen role has been a disappointment, for me. He’s only
    been in place to chide Edmure , or raise an eyebrow. I’ve just decided to
    ignore him until he shows his true resolve. Also, as a viewer, I did not get to
    witness Edmure’s tenure at the Eyrie , or Catelyn’s candid talk as they
    traveled to Riverrun.
    Edmure’s character is as lacking as Mance’s, at
    the moment, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t more profound moments
    for him, in future episodes…. I hope.

  61. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    The Dragon Demands,

    Yes, this ! *>*

  62. After The Feast
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    I personally think the most disappointing aspects of the show’s version of the Red Wedding comes down to the music. There wasn’t the ominous doom boom doom boom throughout the scene. I understand that they used “The Lannisters Send Their Regards” piece from the soundtrack because you can’t have a scene like that without dramatic music in the background. But i felt that in the pause where Robb stands up and says “mother” all the way to the end of the scene should have had the deep (almost war-like) drums in the background. It would have added a lot I think. I was also disappointed in the fact that they casted Wendel Manderly but did not utilize his character. I was crossing my fingers hoping that he would replace the Small Jon and throw the table in front of Robb to shield him from the oncoming bolts being fired. This would have supplied a little bit more “epicness” into the scene. The last thing I’m not fond of is that Roose didn’t run his sword through Robb’s heart. That is so much more dramatic than slicing him open from the front.

    All-in-all I applaud the Dan and David’s adaptation to an almost unadaptable scene.

  63. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    I’m actually going to have to agree Veltigar, to an extent. I thought that the RW was good, but not great (let along brilliant). I thought they hit all of the key notes to perfection but for me it was a lot of the smaller details that detracted from the scene for me:
    - I thought more could have been done with the soundtrack.
    - The way in which the blood came out of Catelyn’s neck just didn’t seem right.
    - And above all: they way Roose jumps in from the side with a tiny dagger was sudden, and not in a good way. It would have been much more effective and horrifying if they kept that moment the same as the book: Roose casually strolling up with a longsword. Imagine: the camera changes to a high shot from the galleries with the crossbowmen. The music goes quiet and all you can hear is Roose’s footsteps as he strolls up to Robb, casually says “The Lannister’s send their regards” then stabs Robb with the longsword. I really feel like that moment wasn’t done justice.

    I’m not going to complain about the small changes from the books in the adaption process, because AN ADAPTION IS AN ADAPTION. If you want it to be the same as the books you should just read the books.

  64. ATG
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:

    On another note, I found it odd that the post-bedding ceremony violence didn’t start until after BF returned from his potty break.Weren’t the hosts watching the BF (and the whole wedding party) closely? It wasn’t a random, sudden event…it was well planned. Surely, the signal (the hall doors closing) could have waited until the BF returned, right? Very odd. And the BF just disappeared.

    From what I remember BF is the head scout of Robb right? I remember Robb saying something like “He is my eyes and ears” in the books. Anyway the way I try to make sense out of it is that he went outside to take a piss saw a bunch of his men celebrating and decided to hang around with them for a while. Thats all assuming he is popular amongst his men. And so when the Red Wedding began he was outside with a portion of his men and therefore was able to fight his way out of there or something.

    That is how I make sense out of it at least, until we are give a proper explanation as to how exactly he survived the RW.

  65. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: Some people found stabbing a pregnant woman multiple times in the belly a disturbing visual that detracted from the rest of the RW. But they went through with it anyways. I mean this is HBO, aren’t they there for pushing boundaries?

    I think that how this series looks into the atrocities of war is one of it’s very strong points. It has not shied away from killing children, pregnant woman, horses and direwolves. Why would they shy away from a disabled person dying? The reality of war is that they are also often the victim of mindless violence and random killings. So, why not show it.

    Don’t forget the show has got that MAA thing to consider. A brutal slaying of the disabled by the dying queen of the north would probably put a damper on the award…..

    [Just kidding....I agree...anything goes in the wild, wild, Westeros!]

  66. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    ATG:
    That is how I make sense out of it at least, until we are give a proper explanation as to how exactly he survived the RW.

    With muted support, I’ll take that. He probably was more comfortable around the warriors than the generals anyway.

  67. Chickenduck
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    OK – I’ll come out and say it. What I like least about the show is the Soundtrack (besides the highly iconic opening theme).

    It’s not “bad”… it’s just that overall I find it really generic.

    I know people love Ramin, but I’m not into it so much.

    Regarding the RW – it looked quite different in my head, but I dug it. Obviously every single fan has a different take on what they would have done, and none of us would be 100% in agreement with anyone else’s version… But at the end of the day, they created the most talked-about non-Breaking Bad TV moment of the year, so they can’t have gotten it too far wrong.

    Things I would have changed – I thought the musicians thing with them playing badly and having crossbow bolts down their horns and whatnot would’ve been cool. I might have had Robb or Catelyn namecheck Wendell Manderly, even just as fan service.

    But overall, I liked what they created.

    But wasn’t too excited about the soundtracking for the scene.

  68. Rygar
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    Thank you. I like the theme song, but the rest of the music is very bland IMO.

  69. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    After The Feast,

    I agree. I wanted more drums. I liked the episode and felt it worked for most unsullied, but it paled in comparison to the books, which wasn’t surprising. As others have said, the lack of established Northern Lords and Ladies hindered the show’s version. I will say that I liked the show’s decision to have Roose there from the start and for Catelyn to discover he was wearing chainmail. I also liked Catelyn’s frozen deadness before she was killed more than the eyes scratching and hysterical laughing/wailing from the book.

  70. Enfield
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    For the people who didn’t like the soundtrack, what did you think of the cello-opening Rains of Castamere being played? I thought that was perfect: the timing, the moment of silence before it starts playing, Catelyn’s slow turn and look before it cuts to Arya…

  71. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I find the soundtrack to be hit or miss. I personally loathe the Stark theme. It makes me roll my eyes when I hear it. But I enjoy the Lannister,Greyjoy, and Targaryen themes. I also think that they overuse all of the House themes. Do we really need to hear them every episode?

  72. ATG
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: With muted support, I’ll take that. He probably was more comfortable around the warriors than the generals anyway.

    I would definitely say that in the TV show they made BF appear more rough and thuggish even. So I think it is safe to assume that he felt more at home amongst the soldiers rather than the Lords and nobility.

  73. After The Feast
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Enfield,

    I don’t really have a problem with the soundtrack, it’s just the fact that there weren’t any deep doom boom doom booms in the scene like the book. But the cello playing “The Rains of Castamere” was great. I mean, that was how it happened in the book more or less. It’s just once it turns into the horror music from the soundtrack(The quick a sharp stabs with the violins and what not) that I don’t really like. I just wanted more drums, at least in the end.

  74. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    + 1, and I respect the adaptive process. However , fans, in retrospect should be able
    to reasonably debate what they liked or felt disappointed by. As a viewer, I’m non
    plussed about Brynden Tully, in general , and disappointed that I did not get to clearly
    identify what happened during or after the Starks were murdered. I got to easily dismiss
    his Bannermen, and reckoned Greywind’s murder when Arya overheard it. I took for
    a honourable mention, by the Frey supporters , at the campsite that Arya and Sandor
    rode by, that Robb’s head was replaced with his Direwolf. With the shock of all that
    transpired, listening carefully for these lightly muttered conversations wasn’t easy.
    As a reader I had foreknowledge, and assumed each stage of carnage.
    The overall impact was well paced and shock and awe, something of television
    milestone. Nothing will change that . Every nuance of the books
    cannot be reproduced, entirely, and there is much more story to tell. Bygones, and
    onto the next phase of production.

    I’m in total agreement with those that found the Frey Chamber Orchestra’s rendition
    of ” the Reynes of ……”, as a surprise and disappointment. When I heard that, I was
    a little deflated and wondered how anyone in the wedding party , unfamiliar and
    must knew what was coming next. The moment of clarity , at that point, did not begin
    with Talisa’s savage killing. I think by that first note, my dagger would have found
    it’s way into my waiting hand.

  75. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    ATG,

    Possible. That river would be a bitch to swim back to Riverrun, though .
    I’m none to worried though, next season all have it all spelled out.

  76. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    After The Feast,

    was it in the books ? I forgot then, must have blotted that out as I tossed my book
    to the other end of the room…….. ) :

  77. After The Feast
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    I think it was. But I could be misremembering. It may sound sick but there is definitely a sort of horrific beauty to that chapter and the way it is written that no show could ever hope to recreate for its viewers in a way to satisfy everyone.

  78. WildSeed
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    After The Feast,

    Of course, you’re right. The notes do have a very melancholy feel
    to it.

    Should have done the Re-Mix version , for the wedding ( :

  79. A Man Grown
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    If you read the interview with Nutter, how he talks about the blocking and the wide shots he wanted, it seems pretty obvious the reason for Roose’s dash is that Nutter wanted uninterrupted wide shots focused on Robb’s face pre-stab and post-stab. If Roose had casually strolled up it would’ve blocked the camera. Though I admit Roose’s dash was silly, the focus on Robb’s face was effective (it is Robb’s death scene, after all).

  80. Turncloak
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    A Man Grown,

    Roose dashed? Huh, learn something new everyday. It played out exactly like how u read it in the book. There’s no pages that state “Roose took 15 paced to Robb and then stabs him “

  81. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    It does happen pretty suddenly in the books too. I think it may have worked better in the show if Roose had approached from behind and stabbed Robb through the back.

    Also, while we are discussing Roose, I want to see this motherflayer in a pink cloak. At least give him a blood red one.

  82. ATG
    Posted October 30, 2013 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Turncloak,

    Also, while we are discussing Roose, I want to see this motherflayer in a pink cloak. At least give him a blood red one.

    THIS! And also give Ramsay his badass helmet/mask that he wore during the sacking of Winterfell.

  83. Starfish
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    THE SCENE WAS TERRIBLE!!!! CHEESY!! UNBELIEVABLE FOR ALL INVOLVED!!! OBVIOUSLY STAGED!! UNDERWHELMING!!! NO DRUMS! NO DOOM DOOM BOOM BOOM!!!!! ANGER!!! SRUTINY!! NO COMPROMISE, NO MERCY!!!!

  84. Jun Snuh
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    Hollyoak:
    I can still hear Catelyn’s wail of LORD WALTER! as she held the knife to Walda or Waldra or Walden’s throat.

    Her name is Joyeuse of House Erenford. A vassal house of the Freys.

  85. We do not Hodor
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    Personally I think this sound track would have been better,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWhcxf_axM

  86. GeekFurious
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 3:12 am | Permalink

    Starfish:
    THE SCENE WAS TERRIBLE!!!! CHEESY!! UNBELIEVABLE FOR ALL INVOLVED!!! OBVIOUSLY STAGED!! UNDERWHELMING!!! NO DRUMS! NO DOOM DOOM BOOM BOOM!!!!! ANGER!!! SRUTINY!! NO COMPROMISE, NO MERCY!!!!

    And everyone involved in the making of it should die.

  87. loki
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    The wedding scene was done pretty good for the most part, but everything else… ugh. My eyes still bleed when i remember the “battle” of Yunkai. David Nutter shouldn’t be a director.

    Starfish:
    THE SCENE WAS TERRIBLE!!!! CHEESY!! UNBELIEVABLE FOR ALL INVOLVED!!! OBVIOUSLY STAGED!! UNDERWHELMING!!! NO DRUMS! NO DOOM DOOM BOOM BOOM!!!!! ANGER!!! SRUTINY!! NO COMPROMISE, NO MERCY!!!!

    The worst thing is there were no bad jokes during the bedding. But thats mostly D&Ds fault. Seriously, fuck D&D. “Frey women have two gates in place of one!” was the best quote from SoS.

  88. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    I agree with some of the minor complaints of the show’s Red Wedding. To comment on larger debates…

    1. Jinglebells- Not sure if you can be too careful about presenting mentally handicapped characters. I think that, when not developed enough, mentally handicapped characters can come off as comic relief and very offensive. Frey wife is innocent enough for people to get the whole point of the throat slitting, is more recognizable to viewers, and leads up to a better Walder line. Preferences aside, the difference between the two is minimal.

    Blackfish- Contrary to what some have said, this is far from a major change. I think honestly they just like the actor, the character, and explaining why he doesn’t die wasn’t too difficult. He left to pee, and I think the Freys were confident they’d kill him outside the hall the same way they killed almost every other Stark/Frey soldier outside.

    Greywind- Think about that bear scene in Episode 7. With one of the most highly trained animals in cinema. Not really that great…doing a similar scene with the wolf would have been difficult for same reasons, and wouldn’t have done it justice.

  89. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 4:18 am | Permalink

    Wanted to write separately to discuss Talisa’s presence and death. I think a firm and final conclusion to the love story and killing the whole “will his son avenge him” open question is good, and justifies the unwise decision to bring her to the people who were so insulted by their marriage.

    The death itself isn’t a cheap shock. If we’re going to talk about GoT’s theme of war and its costs, it’s worth remembering that kids of political enemies were definitely killed. We didn’t have a show version of Tywin’s ordering the deaths of Rhaegar’s children. I think it was not only heart-breaking and disturbing seeing that, but important thematically, and a great way to show just how cruel these political wars were, and just how far Tywin’s pragmatism will go.

  90. King DBC
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Hounded,

    Oh please, Masters of Sex is terrible. A pathetic attempt at Mad Men.

  91. Greenjones
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckg8VKGNt38

    We’ve speculated on Season 4′s ep. 9 and here are some very vague allusions to it. To paraphrase he says, “there’s some drama and tragedy in it”. Do you all think this means that we’ll get “hands of gold” as well as the battle or maybe they’ve put off the attack from the south by the wildlings so that it would be a later rather than an early season gut punch?

  92. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Hounded,
    Is Masters of Sex good? Yes. Is it great, let alone the drama of the year? Definitely not.

    Here is how I would rank the new shows from this year that I have seen:

    1 – Vikings (That season 2 trailer…)
    2 – Rectify (If I was to look at it more objectively Rectify would definitely top the list. The only reason I have Vikings is on top is because Vikings are badass :P)
    3 – In the Flesh (I very original take on a very saturated genre)
    4 – Bates Motel
    5 – Hemlock Grove
    6 – Da Vinci’s Demons (Season 2 looks like it will be amazing. Overall Starz looks like the channel to watch next year)
    7 – Utopia
    8 – House of Cards (it was great, but I don’t think it quite lived up to the hype)
    9 – Ray Donovan
    10 – The Americans
    11 – Orphan Black (I am only half way through it, though)
    12 – The Bridge
    13 – Banshee
    14 – Graceland (it started out very slow but I really enjoyed it later on)
    15 – Masters of Sex
    16 – Sleepy Hollow
    17 – Defiance (I was expecting much more from it)
    18 – The Tomorrow People
    19 – The Fall (I wasn’t really giving it my full attention, though. I might give it another try to see if I like it more)
    20 – Atlantis (just silly, but in an amusing way)
    21 – Hannibal (way too trippy for my liking :P)
    22 – The Blacklist
    23 – Low Winter Sun
    24 – The White Queen (might be better upon rewatching it, though)
    25 – Agents of SHIELD (definitely doesn’t live up to the hype)
    26 – Dracula (the premiere didn’t particularly impress me, so it could fall down my list)
    27 – Under the Dome (I really enjoyed it at first, but then it just got weird)
    28 – The Following (the first few episodes were good, but after that it was like watching train very slowly derail)
    29 – What Remains (I just didn’t enjoy it)
    30 – Reign (the music alone is enough reason to hate it)
    31 – Once Upon a Time in Wonderland (I hate the original OUaT, so why I even bothered with the spinoff I don’t even know…)

    Stuff from this year that I am yet to see: Broadchurch, Shetland, Mr Selfridge and Orange is the New Black

    King DBC,
    As for Masters of Sex in particular: I am actually enjoying it a bit. I don’t love it by any means, but I do think it is worth my time. It actually has been a pleasant surprise, because I went in expecting to despise it (I am one of the people that often complains about the sex scenes in GoT). As for the Mad Men comparison, I wish I could comment more on that but I haven’t actually seen MM yet. Well, I haven’t finished it, I watched the first episode today.

    Greenjones:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckg8VKGNt38

    We’ve speculated on Season 4′s ep. 9 and here are some very vague allusions to it. To paraphrase he says, “there’s some drama and tragedy in it”. Do you all think this means that we’ll get “hands of gold” as well as the battle or maybe they’ve put off the attack from the south by the wildlings so that it would be a later rather than an early season gut punch?

    Since I despise the notion of Tyrion’s escape being in episode 9, I would lean towards the latter of the two. I also wouldn’t put it past them to change up the chronology so as to keep Rose Leslie around for a few more episodes, especially after what they did to Jon’s storyline in season 2. Another option would be that they could kill off someone who doesn’t die in the books. I have thrown about the theory that Grenn could replace Donal Noye.

  93. wherpon
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Hemlock Grove was utter shit.

  94. Nancy
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I 100% agree with this. I think the Red Wedding in the books is one of the best written sequences in almost any book I have read, no doubt. But I understand why the show did the Red Wedding the way they did and I felt like it worked better on TV, your non-book readers were surprised.
    I do wish we were introduced to more of Robb’s bannerman, I do think an element was lost there with that. But I have no complaints.

  95. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen:

    Think about that bear scene in Episode 7. With one of the most highly trained animals in cinema. Not really that great…doing a similar scene with the wolf would have been difficult for same reasons, and wouldn’t have done it justice….

    Poor Grey Wind….(feeling a little vaclempt…)

    Regarding the bear scene, I agree…how would one train a grizzly to simulate “attack and maul”? The final product really was just a smattering of creatively edited shots rather than an actual simulated fight. Maybe they could have put Andy Serkis in his blue sensor suit, spiced him up with fish and bambi scents, then have him jump into the pit and let the cameras roll…splice in Brienne and Jaime later….:-)

  96. Doug
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I agree completely with him. I didn’t like the scene at all and it was terribly disappointed.

  97. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Holy shit. You’ve watched all of those shows?

  98. Ser Tahu
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    wherpon,
    I put it in the same category as True Blood: Absolute crap but for some weird reason entertaining.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    Yeah, I may have wasted too much time on tv this year. From now on I am probably going to have a rule: “Unless it looks extremely interesting, don’t watch it unless it is from FX, AMC, Starz, Showtime or HBO.”

    My original reason for watching more dramas was actually to kill time in the GoT off-season :P.

  99. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted October 31, 2013 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    I’m extremely picky when it comes to new shows. If it’s not on HBO,FX,AMC, or Showtime then I don’t usually bother. The only new shows I’ve watched this year are ‘The Americans’ and ‘Masters Of Sex’, though I plan on eventually watching ‘Orange Is The New Black’ and ‘House Of Cards’. I’m busy trying to watch shows that I’ve missed that no longer air. I finished ‘The Wire’ a month ago and will start ‘Deadwood’ soon.

  100. Ser Tahu
    Posted November 1, 2013 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    Not Starz? As someone who lives outside of the US (Australia), from what I can tell they are similar to Showtime and HBO. Also, their 2014 lineup looks very strong:
    Black Sails (which looks like it could be a candidate for best new series next year)
    Da Vinci’s Demons Season 2
    Outlander (based on a huge sci-fi book series, and it looks like they want it to be their Game of Thrones)
    Power (gangster drama. From what I can tell it seems like a midpoint between Boardwalk Empire and Breaking Bad)
    Fortitude (arctic crime drama)
    And a possible season 2 of The White Queen.

    As for past series, I generally haven’t been watching anything that is already finished. My plan was to watch all of the ongoing drama series’ from FX, AMC, Starz, Showtime and HBO, in addition to ongoing dramas from other channels that look interesting. After I am up to date in the ongoing stuff and have several new episodes coming out every week I will start watching the completed stuff. The shows that I am currently in the process of watching are: Mad Men (which, two episodes in, is yet to hook me), Orphan Black and Justified.

  101. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted November 1, 2013 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    I’m still waiting for that one must see program on STARZ. I know plenty of people liked Spartacus, but I never liked ’300′ or the whole ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’/'Matrix’ style fight scenes, so I didn’t give the show much of a shot. Like I said, I’m very picky. If a new show doesn’t receive pretty much universal acclaim, then I don’t really bother. Snobbish, I know, but if a show really takes off then I can always catch on later.

  102. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 1, 2013 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Mad Men won’t hook you in two eps. Watch season 1 and make your decision after that.

  103. Greenjones
    Posted November 1, 2013 at 8:26 pm | Permalink
  104. Greenjones
    Posted November 1, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    Note the barrels in the pictures. Was it frozen gravel that they tumbled over the Wall?

  105. tweedie
    Posted November 2, 2013 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    The more I think about it the more I think they handled the death of greywind the only way they could. If he goes out all gums blazing as in the books then unless you give half your fx budget to weta then it will look cheesey. And even then it might not have fitted in with the one-sided aspect of it all that they obviously wanted to portray. Overall the red wedding was done well but I agree with the view that it could have been more chaotic. In the book it really was the mother of godawful weddings with a mounting sense of impending doom that I have seldom read in other books before. And the chaos of it all – nevermind Grey Wind, the Greatjon was biting faces off too. So as well as the red wedding was filmed it could never compare to how it was in the books.

  106. Skyofwelkup
    Posted November 2, 2013 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I was just wondering, do you ever plan on putting that stoneheart epilogue scene you made online?

  107. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Skyofwelkup:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    I was just wondering, do you ever plan on putting that stoneheart epilogue scene you made online?

    Oh, you are funny! This 2 minute ditty has become a bit of silliness within my neighborhood and family. I’ll try but there are others involved (including another regular alias on this site) and a manager/agent who are not in favor of it being released (for many reasons). It may see the light of day at some point though….(I’ll try). Thx for asking!


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