People’s Choice Awards 2014 nominations
By Hear Me Roar on in Awards.

This year brings the 40th edition of People’s Choice Awards, and Game of Thrones has three nominations to its name:

  • GoT for Favorite Premium Cable TV show.
  • Emilia Clarke for Favorite Sci-Fi/Fantasy TV Acress
  • Jaime Lannister for Favorite TV Anti-Hero

You can vote on these and the other categories right here. The winners will be announced on January 8th, 2014, on CBS.

Hear Me Roar: The first two seasons of GoT were nominated for best TV show, but ended up empty handed. With a couple more nominations this year, can the show win its first PCA?


103 Comments

  1. MVD
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Jamie!

  2. GeekFurious
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    There’s an award show where fans vote for shit on the Internet and people get excited about it?

    Isn’t that just the WiC awards?

  3. Turncloak
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:49 am | Permalink
  4. Ozymandias
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    You guys should not care about this crap.
    It will almost be a shame to win…

  5. Milly
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Ozymandias,

    There can be a lot of worth to awards like the PCAs because these are awards where the fans determine who is even nominated out of the list of submissions and then the fans determine the winner. The people voting for these awards are the people who watch these shows/movies for enjoyment. The awards are the fans’ gifts to the actors and showrunners. And that’s why I prefer the PCAs/TCAs/etc over the Academy Awards, because I have a hand in saying thank you to actors I like.

  6. zzz
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Emilia clark for favorite acress…must be a new one.lol

  7. roko195411
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Emilia Clarke for fattest actress!

  8. Skipjack
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Anyone who thinks Emilia is fat has a lifetime of disappointment with all women ahead of them.

    We used to get very worked up about these awards to raise the profile of the show, but now that we know HBO is happy to keep Game of Thrones going until the end, and also that it isn’t likely to grow viewers as quickly as it had been when it was new, I think I’m not interested in what other people think anymore about the show. I wish them luck, but sometimes I wonder if it gets to be a drag being nominated for so much stuff. Parties and dress up is great and all, but it seems like more work at this point.

  9. Lux
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    roko195411:
    Emilia Clarke for fattest actress!

    roko for stupidest guy ever pfff; incredible; she’s fat??

    anyhoo.. yeah Jaime deserves a win – well NCW does

  10. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    What the fuck is with the Trolls lately?

  11. The Dragon Demands
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    This is crazy – the bad “Beauty and the Beast” remake is nominated for “Best Scifi/Fantasy series” but Game of Thrones is not? Well…it was nominated for the (more important) “Best Drama Series”, so maybe there’s a rule that a series can’t be in more than one category.

  12. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Lux: roko for stupidest guy ever pfff; incredible; she’s fat??

    I think he/she meant “phat”.
    :)

  13. Abyss
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    I really don’t understand why some people look down on the People’s Choice Awards. They will create buzz for the show and buzz is always a good think, at least when it is a positive one (and to some degree even when it is negative). – How could it be a bad thing if a bunch of people state that they like Game of Thrones?

  14. OldeCrone
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    The trolls are best ignored – after all if people react they are doing what the trolls want.

    Award shows where the Hollywood glitterati [or British glitterati] pat each other on the back seem rather remote to me.

  15. Abyss
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,
    *thing…

  16. prom000
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    OldeCrone,

    That too. But have you ever seen what happens during commericals?
    EverybodY jumps up and talks to somebody.
    These Events are for networking.

  17. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Is jamie really an Anti-Hero at this point. I dont look at him like that. As a matter of fact I dont really look at to many of the characters in this show as heros or anti heros. but for his actions towards Mad King Arys alone I would call Jamie a Hero

  18. roze
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    I hope that the talented young actors in the show like Isaac H W and Jack Gleeson will get more recognition out there. : )

  19. Andrew
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for keeping the magic alive between seasons and between books releases! It’s nice to at least have some new content or things to think about while I’m waiting. If you are a huge fan, which I assume you are since you’re here, you should check out the GoT shirts at
    http://sunfrogshirts.com

    I love the ones that I got and I hope you’ll love yours too.
    Again, thanks for the all the great work.

  20. Duck
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    I think, in regards to the whole award show debate, it’s really all subjective, and depends on personal taste. I would say the PCA’s are more for the casual fans (who are “big” fans of a few things) The best award show for “nerds” ( which I presume is the category most of us fall into) is probably like the Saturn Awards. The Oscars and Emmys are probably the most rewarding awards for the winners, since that’s where they’re recognized by their peers (I mean, I’m sure they appreciate the fan’s praise too, but they get a lot if that during the year outside of Awards, so it’s not necessarily that big a moment for them when they get an award for that.
    Really, for most people, the only award show that would leave them truly satisfied is one where they pick all the winners and all the nominees, which isn’t likely to happen in most of our cases.

  21. Duck
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre: Is jamie really an Anti-Hero at this point. I dont look at him like that. As a matter of fact I dont really look at to many of the characters in this show as heros or anti heros. but for his actions towards Mad King Arys alone I would call Jamie a Hero

    An anti-hero is someone who’s a protagonist, but has qualities that aren’t traditionally heroic. I would say fucking your sister, attempting to kill children, and in general being seen as an antagonist to many of the other characters fits the definition

  22. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Duck: An anti-hero is someone who’s a protagonist, but has qualities that aren’t traditionally heroic. I would say fucking your sister, attempting to kill children, and in general being seen as an antagonist to many of the other characters fits the definition

    Using that logic, I would call most every major “protagonist” in ASoI&F an anti-hero. Everyone, even Sansa, has a past and has blood on their hands, directly or indirectly.

  23. Skipjack
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    I would probably call Jaime Lannister an anti-villain at this point in the (TV) story. He is clearly with the bad guy family but has some redeeming features. As opposed to Tyrion who is a good guy in the bad guy family, Jaime hasn’t been heroic vis-a-vis the story. Sure in the past he murdered the Mad King, but all we’ve seen him do has been to go back for Brienne when he didn’t have to. Otherwise he’s been perfectly horrible. And even killing the Mad King broke his oath as a Kingsguard, and helped his family in the bargain while saving King’s Landing. But he’s still very much in the Lannister camp, furthering Lannister ends- which are boo hiss level bad.

  24. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Duck,

    Well as for the sister fucking. That really wasn’t looked down upon too much around that time. I think there’s an arguement that there love is more then any other character in the story. But sister fucking aside, what would you of done if Brann caught you screwing the kings wife. Wait for him to go to the king so you can get beheaded. No you push his ass out the window. I say bold move jamie.

  25. Greenjones
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Off topic. To those who hope for a Shireen and Rickon union to cement the Baratheons and Starks, here’s some fuel to the fire.https://twitter.com/ArtRickonrockon https://twitter.com/Kerry_Ingram

  26. Hodor
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Lol at Emilia being fat. Get the fuck out of here you little virgin.

    Hodor

  27. Jentario
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Still, if anyone deserves that title it’s Jamie. His transformation throughout the season is what really made him a hero, and the fact only really cemented when he jumped into the bear pit. Until that scene, he was definitely an anti-hero, and now things may be bound to change.

    EDIT: The major point being that Jaime began as a villain and ended as a hero, while other characters began as heroes and started making questionable decisions.

  28. Jentario
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfyre,

    I wouldn’t fuck the King’s wife in the first place. That’s a first class crime right there, sister or no sister. And doing that to a King you’re sworn to serve under oath just makes it worse. Saving your own ass from well deserved punishment by throwing a completely innocent boy out of the window just because you were so horny you HAD to bang under potential enemy noses is not acceptable. An honorable man would turn himself in, instead but, then, an honorable man wouldn’t be fucking his married Queen sister in the first place.

    As for sister-fucking not being looked down upon “at the time”, a simple look at the given material proves you wrong. Incest between close family members is considered a sin, only incest between cousins is accepted.

    Jaime ends up as a hero, but he clearly doesn’t begin as one.

  29. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfyre:
    Duck,
    Well as for the sister fucking. That really wasn’t looked down upon too much around that time. I think there’s an argument that their love is more then any other character in the story. But sister fucking aside, what would you of done if Brann caught you screwing the kings wife. Wait for him to go to the king so you can get beheaded. No you push his ass out the window. I say bold move jamie.

    I had to chuckle a bit when I read your response. Indeed, self-preservation is key on ASoI&F….and GRRM does take “morality” and “depravity” to unique “acceptable” levels when considering self-preservation. Arya’s storyline will take self-preservation to new tolerance levels as well. Even LS takes family preservation, moral codes and revenge to new levels in the “afterlife”.

    When you mentioned “around that time”, were you referencing our time or Westeros time? Certainly, even in “our current time,” some cultures and class systems tolerate “intimate relations” among relatives. But in GRRM’s world, I do believe he is using incestuous relations as “cautionary tales”. From the “mad king” Targaryens to Joff, the product of these relations has led to disaster and failure….and definitely not met with public approval. Imho, it is part of the “Power & Corruption/Dysfunction” motif in ASoI&F.

    Even Jaime can’t get beyond his self-inflicted curse…I doubt his emotional disclosure to Brienne in the tub about his Sack of KL activities would have been as effective if he had also included the Bran, Cersei and royal children facts. The reader’s perspective (not Brienne’s) is key. Indeed, the challenge that GRRM has given his readers is presented in so many ways (directly and indirectly) in ASoI&F: how much can we forgive and tolerate of our presumed “protagonists/anti-heros”? Similar curses/tolerance levels linger around many major characters…which ones will survive their curses, and which ones are doomed?

  30. MRR
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Here’s a link, for those who care to vote:

    http://www.peopleschoice.com/pca/vote/

    Not sure why this wasn’t posted with the article…

  31. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Jentario:
    Jon Blackfyre,
    “sin”

    Do you really believe that “sin” is a concept in the ASoI&F world? I don’t believe the characters in GRRM’s world live in fear of the concept of “sin”.

  32. MRR
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is up against Walter White? He’s going to need all the help he can get… : /
    I wasn’t a huge fan of Breaking Bad, but it has a very strong following.

  33. Rygar
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    I need a hero. I’m holding out for a hero ’till the end of the night. He’s gotta be strong, he’s gotta be fast, and he’s gotta be fresh from the fight.

    Kevin Bacon in a fat suit as Wyman Manderly.

  34. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    So if Cersei and Jaime decided to not push Bran because he’s just a kid after all, are they then supposed to trust Bran to not tell his father or the King? If caught Jaime, Cersei and probably their children would be executed. We may not like it, but Jaime made the right decision.

  35. Easteros bunny
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    But people’s choice actually means something.

  36. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    What the fuck is with the Trolls lately?

    Unfortunately, without an accountable login system and an increasing fan base, the trolling will continue, if not increase. At least the Hand of God has come down from on high and removed some of the evil trollish comments from last night. It is my opinion that many of the true trolls are actually adhoc aliases of known entities on this site. Oh well, I used to be disgusted, now I’m just amused.

  37. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    I need a hero.I’m holding out for a hero ’till the end of the night.He’s gotta be strong, he’s gotta be fast, and he’s gotta be fresh from the fight.

    Kevin Bacon in a fat suit as Wyman Manderly.

    I think Wyman needs a hero….sandwich, that is.

  38. Jentario
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    True, but it does have taboo. The guy said banging sisters was acceptable at the time (which by the way is a dumb sentence since there was no such time, it’s complete fiction). The reactions of most characters to the Jaime-Cersei relationship prove that this is true.

  39. Rygar
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yeah. Someone had the gall to say my posts were annoying. Some nerve!

  40. Jentario
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    “Right” is not true. The opposite eventuality could have been much worse, but it still doesn’t make it right. Pushing Bran off the window was the easy thing to do.

    And again, that wasn’t Jaime’s first or last questionable act: sister fucking, oath breaking, vain, cruel (see his confrontation with Ned) and a general Lannister to top it off. He was a villain up until the moment his hand got chopped, even if killing Aerys and Bran seemed like the most logical things to do (which they were, in a way).

  41. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Yeah. Someone had the gall to say my posts were annoying.Some nerve!

    As a species, we would be nothing without dicks, breasts and vaginas. Carry on, ser….you serve valiantly as a metaphor for the human condition.

  42. RedViper
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Oh please – if there is one award show we should not give a crap about, it the PCAs …
    They should be renamed the “Tween-aged Girls Awards” … these are questionnaires that are sent to people’s homes, and then given to the only people in the household who care about filing out filling out these questionnaires – the teenaged girls.

  43. Markus
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Emilia <3

  44. Samwell
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Like the nominees very much. Good choices and best of luck to everyone.

  45. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Joshua Atreides,

    What i meant “at the time” was westeros. Yeah you can gather that sister fucking is thought somewhat disgusting by some people like stanis. But it was also going on for centuries with the Targs. So obviously not a crime. But also if you want to compare this to times around the “War if Roses” then it was still somewhat exceptable to be fucking family. Maybe not sisters but family. As for oathbreaking. I think everyone would agree there pretty glad he “broke his oath” if you can call it that. Dont you remember Jamies speech about all the different oaths and how your will break one if you uphold the other. I think he can be called a hero for that. as for having sex with his kings queen. Well im pretty sure everyone thanks of lancelot as a hero. in a lot of stories he was having an affair with his kings queen. or you can even look at Tristan and Isolde another similar story. As for attacking Ned. He was standing up for his Families honor and his little brother. If it had been Jamie who imprissonded Cat or even Benjin, and Ned attacked him, would we think of Ned like we think of Jamie. As for pushing a kid out of the window I admit, yeah. Not very virtuous. im just saying, what is he going to do? what would a lot of people do in that situation? they might not say it but they would push him straight out the window.

    I like how people think of Ned being way more honorable then Jamie because hes the kingslayer. Ned rose up and revolted against his king. so there hes and oathbreaker. He then tried to impross King Joffery so once againd oathbreaker. He apparently fathered a bastard. i know we dont believe this but his wife sure as shit did.

    One more thing about people being evil in this series. I dont think to many people are evil. Mostly I dont think the Lannisters are evil. Only Cersie cuz shes “crazy and a shit house rat” But I dont consider Tywin Jamie or Tyrion evil. Tywin maybe mean but not evil.

  46. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    So he and his sister and his children die because of modern thinking? Pushing a kid out a window is wrong but if the lives of my family is at stake yet I should just face the consequences?
    Yes, true does not equal right but one could argue that it was a wise move to protect the family.

  47. Ashara D
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    Not that I agree with all you say, but thought I’d also throw in that, if R+L=J, then Ned willfully concealed a legitimate heir to the throne to put/keep his buddy Robert on it. Not so honorable…

  48. sunspear
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    Incest was never a widespread accepted practice in Westeros. The only family that ever formally engaged in it were the Targaryens, and they only got away with it because dragons. Cercei and Jaime are the only two characters who truly consider incest ok.

    Joshua Atreides,

    If he wanted to protect his family, he shouldn’t he shouldn’t have been nailing his sister to begin with. Whoever upthread said that the only honorable thing to do in that situation was to confess and beg for mercy was right.

    Ashara D,

    If R+L=J is true, then Jon is still a bastard and has no right to the throne.

  49. Ser Tahu
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I find it hard to take these awards seriously when Breaking Bad isn’t even nominated for best cable drama…

  50. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Again. It wasn’t just his life at stake. Right and honourable have nothing to do with it.

  51. sunspear
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Don’t worry, nobody takes these awards seriously.

  52. sunspear
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    They have everything to do with it. Doing terrible, criminal things does not give you the right to keep doing terrible, criminal things so you can continue to do terrible, criminal things. Bran’s right to have functioning legs trumps the right to live of every Lannister in that situation.

  53. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Jon Blackfiyre,
    If he wanted to protect his family, he shouldn’t he shouldn’t have been nailing his sister to begin with. Whoever upthread said that the only honorable thing to do in that situation was to confess and beg for mercy was right.

    Siblings J & C were going at it long before any royals or arranged marriages were involved. Although not acceptable in most any context, their relationship was/is pretty deep.

    “We don’t get to choose who we love.”
    - JL

  54. Tereeza 777
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Voted – lots of Miley, Katy, Jaime, Dany, Johnny-D and Breaking Bad!!!!!!! Yeah – Mr. White – Fantasy – Bitch!

  55. Lux
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I think he/she meant “phat”.
    :)

    that’d be more accurate! otherwise.. geez I’m an actress myself and we’re not anorexic models, just normal women to embody most types!

  56. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Lux: that’d be more accurate! otherwise.. geez I’m an actress myself and we’re not anorexic models, just normal women to embody most types!

    Damn straight! I was just trying to turn a trollish comment around to fit the context. Break a leg!

  57. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Similar topic:
    Huffington Post came out with an interesting list yesterday. Most devastating episodes in recent TV history. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/11/devastating-episodes_n_4239854.html?utm_hp_ref=entertainment

    RW #1 and Ozymandias #2. No doubt.

  58. That Stark boy
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    zzz:
    Emilia clark for favorite acress…must be a new one.lol

    I really find it difficult to understand why they are nominating Emilia for favorite once we made clear with that whinefest of ours that Michelle should have been nominated to the Emmys.

    Jon Blackfiyre:
    Is jamie really an Anti-Hero at this point. I dont look at him like that. As a matter of fact I dont really look at to many of the characters in this show as heros or anti heros. but for his actions towards Mad King Arys alone I would call Jamie a Hero

    I read Jaime and immediately thought NCW was nominated as Best… uh… FAVORITE actor. No… his character is being nominated – WTF?.
    So, it brought a smile to my lips. It really did. I would vote for Nikolaj from sunrise to sunset. And then to sunrise again. It’s a pity Jaime was nominated in a category I never liked and that I don’t think suits him much. Too clichéd and I feel like a kid voting in something like that.
    Like, “My favorite character is that guy. Because of his hair. And he’s the hero. And I am him on the show. Who you are on the show?”

    roko195411:
    Emilia Clarke for fattest actress!

    Seven hells, can you believe I actually read something like”fattest” there? I think is because of the amount of letters that forms “fattest” in “Favorite Sci-Fi/Fantasy TV Acress”. Yes, Acress. Look that up.
    I begin to read it and gave it up. I was like, “Aaaargh… she was nominated for favorite actress… that’s all”. I hope Jaime doesn’t try to read it.
    It may be because I just woke up. In the middle of the night.

    sunspear:
    Jon Blackfiyre,
    Ashara D,

    If R+L=J is true, then Jon is still a bastard and has no right to the throne.

    He still has some claim. Some people would rather fight for a bastard son than for a sister of the prince. Some would fight because they really believe his son deserves the throne because he is his son, while other people would use the same reason to justify and fight for the bastard but only because the cause suits them.

  59. That Stark boy
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Similar topic:
    Huffington Post came out with an interesting list yesterday. Most devastating episodes in recent TV history. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/11/devastating-episodes_n_4239854.html?utm_hp_ref=entertainment

    RW #1 and Ozymandias #2.No doubt.

    Who dies on Ozymandias? His kid? I only watched until S1E4. That’s Breaking Bad, right?

  60. WildSeed
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: As a species, we would be nothing without dicks, breasts and vaginas. Carry on, ser….you serve valiantly as a metaphor for the human condition.

    LMAO. I’d much prefer a limerick or two, but there’s no denying your statement, lol.
    The ” human condition ” remains an enigma…. to be handled gently .

  61. WildSeed
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I looked up ” phat “, and it appears to be complimentary in meaning. The word, ” fattest “, wouldn’t imply the same. Anyhow, the comment was probably meant as a joke, not to be taken seriously.

  62. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    That Stark boy: Who dies on Ozymandias? His kid? I only watched until S1E4. That’s Breaking Bad, right?

    Stop what you are doing right now….and watch BB S1 thru S4….Don’t pass go, don’t stop for donuts…just watch that series now and join the rest of us disturbed fans.

    The complete BB S5 comes out Nov 25. No work shall be done that day.

    I won’t spoil tHis episode for AnyoNe… just fucKing watch it. :)

  63. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Jaime definitely counts as an anti-hero for this season. Just because you end uo siding with him on every action he’s taken doesn’t mean he’s not. His decisions have been morally murky but sometimes justifiable, and he was unquestionably a protagonist this season. The fact that we’re debating the ethics of his pushing a kid out a window only confirms his anti-hero status.

    And there’s a big difference between “anti-hero” and “hero that makes mistakes,” or “villains that have moments of humanity” for that matter. A lot of it has to do with how the audience is supposed to perceive them, rather than what their intentions and personalities actually are. Jaime was supposed to look like a villain in the first season (though a complicated one), and Ned, despite his own flaws, was supposed to be seen as the hero. We can do moral calculus all we want, but that’s how the storywas structured and those are the categories that they fit into, not so much because of their actions but because of the role they played in the story and how the audience was meant to perceive them. His current anti-hero status is what makes him a fascinating character, and is the natural consequence of GRRM’s, D&D’s, and NCW’s impressive flipping of the tables on the audience’s perceptions of this character.

  64. That Stark boy
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Stop what you are doing right now….and watch BB S1 thru S4….Don’t pass go, don’t stop for donuts…just watch that series now and join the rest of us disturbed fans.

    The complete BB S5 comes out Nov 25.No work shall be done that day.

    I won’t spoil tHis episode for AnyoNe… just fucKing watch it. :)

    I’m a bit afraid. I think that’s why I don’t want to continue. I still cry for the Red Wedding late at night and swear vengeance, you know. I’m not emotionally prepared. Btw, is that the last last? The last Breaking Bad episode?

    And anyway I didn’t fell much urge to go on after four episodes. And for Game of Thrones that was mid-second episode on season three, not even one of the best of the series.

  65. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Okay I’ll compromise. Jaime/Cersei and even Joffrey are executed. Fine. But Myrcella and Tommen are innocents. Fuck even Jaime knows that. Now they face death because of their actions? Sorry child not of my blood but that’s two lives over a singular crippled boy. It’s an awful situation but when it’s your family at stake that kind of rational, Starkian thinking just doesn’t work.
    I won’t deny it’s a morally ambiguous situation but one can see why Jaime did what he did.

  66. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    That Stark boy: I’m a bit afraid. I think that’s why I don’t want to continue. I still cry for the Red Wedding late at night and swear vengeance, you know. I’m not emotionally prepared. Btw, is that the last last? The last Breaking Bad episode?

    I absolutely respect that you have your hesitations regarding BB. It ain’t light. Ozy is ep 14 out of 16 for S5 but it is the episode that will probably give BB every acting award at the Emmys next year.

  67. Darkstar
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D:
    Jon Blackfiyre,

    Not that I agree with all you say, but thought I’d also throw in that, if R+L=J, then Ned willfully concealed a legitimate heir to the throne to put/keep his buddy Robert on it. Not so honorable…

    No, he did it to protect Jon from Robert, who was of a mind to eliminate all Targaryans.

  68. WildSeed
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    word !

  69. ATG
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Unfortunately, without an accountable login system and an increasing fan base, the trolling will continue, if not increase.At least the Hand of God has come down from on high and removed some of the evil trollish comments from last night. It is my opinion that many of the true trolls are actually adhoc aliases of known entities on this site. Oh well, I used to be disgusted, now I’m just amused.

    We do need an accountable login system on this website.

  70. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    I tend to justify Jaime’s child-pushing in this way as well. It’s an awful situation, as you say. But…HE’S the one continually putting himself in that awful situation! If he cared so much for the lives of his kids, so much that he would kill another child, well, he should probably not be constantly risking discovery of his secret and therefore risking the deaths of his children every chance he gets. Willingness to keep it in your pants should come before willingness to kill a child.

    And Jaime comes off badly in that scene not only because of what he did, but for how little he cares that he did it. His glib “The things I do for love” gives his attempted murder an irreverence that is not appropriate, even if the moral calculus ends up justifying what he did.

  71. sunspear
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    Sorry, but no. Defending innocents doesn’t put you in the right when YOU are the one who put them in danger. The possible death of Tommen and Myrcella is on Jaime and Cersei’s shoulder’s, not Bran’s. There is no moral way to avoid giving Jaime a massive moral black mark for what he did.

  72. That Stark boy
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    ATG,

    You trust me, right, guys? I have proven my worth. Right?

  73. That Stark boy
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    I think Jaime thinks himself as a real hero. “There are no men like me. There’s only me” ¬¬. He killed Aerys, who is one of the most cruel SOBs ever. He takes no credit for it. He is the unknown savior, the one who everyone despises but who is the more deserving of praise. Even the families of the guys he avenged despise him. The fact that no songs are sung about him makes him superior. He thinks himself one thousand times better than all the other knights, which puts him very close to the Hound. That’s one of the reasons he doesn’t want to tell anyone what Aerys told him. He likes being that kind of hero.

  74. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted November 12, 2013 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    To play devil’s advocate…what’s so wrong about sleeping with his married sister? And let’s keep away from Westerosi norms, which are messed up. Yes, he’s endangering his kids, bit surely that’s more an indictment on Robert than Jaime? And if it’s not so wrong to sleep with his sister, then maybe it is not so seriously wrong to kill one kid to save three (depending on how utilitarian you are).

  75. Jentario
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    And they should have stopped the second one of them got married. Hell, taking the Targs as role models was never a good choice anyway (considering crazy children). But I agree with Sunspear: pushing Bran may have been the only logical thing to do in the moment, but they would never have reached that moment if they were actual good people (or gray or whatever). The point is that you shouldn’t look just at that decision but at all that led to it, with Jon Arryn and all. J&C didn’t even try to be more careful, and they were willing to do the deed and end a kid’s life more quickly than I give them credit for, and with absolutely no hesitation.

  76. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    sunspear,

    I think the difference is you see it in black and white whereas I see the moral ambiguity of the situation. We will just have to agree to disagree.

    Here’s a Fun speculation though: let’s say if Jaime did nothing. Bran might have agreed to stay quiet but eventually the secret would get out. Given Robert’s hatred for the Targaryens, imagine how he would react to evidence of Cersei being guilty of adultery/incest/treason. Jaime and Cersei would lose their heads but given the historical era of which Martin has attempted to emulate, it would be a sure thing that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella would soon join their parents on the chopping block. I wonder if Ned Stark would object? Or would he do his duty just as he did with poor Gared/Will? Granted Will was technically a deserter.

    Come to think of it, would Tywin have declared war on Robert if he had executed Jaime and Cersei?

    Hmmmm…

  77. Crisss
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    I hope everyone who is nominated wins, they all deserve it :)

  78. sunspear
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    That Stark boy,

    Yes, killing Aerys was a good hero moment, but you completely ignored the whole ‘shoving an 8-year-old out the window’ part of this discussion.
    Hodor Targaryen,

    what’s so wrong about sleeping with his married sister?

    So many things. Incest. Adultery. Endangering the line of succession. Oathbreaking. Treason.

    And let’s keep away from Westerosi norms

    Why? What Jaime is doing is frowned upon in every society, and for a good reason.

    bit surely that’s more an indictment on Robert than Jaime?

    No, it’s an indictment of Jaime, the guy that is putting them in danger.

    Joshua Atreides,

    We’ve been over this three times. All of those consequences are 100% Jaime’s fault for getting his sister pregnant. If he wanted to prevent all those consequences, the ONLY morally right thing to do is stop screwing his sister entirely, or after he got caught to confess. That’s it.

    Breaking Bad is considered the best show on TV right because of how villainous they made their central character. If we want to follow your line of thinking, Walter White is no more morally complex a character than Andy Griffith.

  79. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    sunspear:
    That Stark boy,

    Hodor Targaryen,

    So many things. Incest. Adultery. Endangering the line of succession. Oathbreaking. Treason.

    Well, let’s take those one at a time.

    Why is incest bad? Given more scientific knowledge, we know it can make messed up babies. But is there a reason why people who can’t be realistically expected to know that shouldn’t do it? Incest bugs these Westeros guys in the same way homosexual sex does, it just doesn’t feel right to them. Cersei bringing up the Targaryen double standard, to me, puts to rest the idea that their having sex with each other was such an objectively evil thing for them to do.

    Adultery I don’t think is as bad in a time when people didn’t marry for love, and when clearly Cersei and Robert don’t love each other. Cersei is just as entitled to have someone on the side as Robert or Dany.

    Line of succession is one of those BS Westerosi norms that I don’t take seriously as a moral objection against what they do. There is nothing fundamentally moral about making a dead king’s firstborn son the next king as opposed to, say, anyone else, especially if that “else” is a person who would make a much better king. Renly’s whole thesis behind why he made a claim to the throne, basically. (Granted, Joffrey doesn’t quite fit the description of “better king” than Robert’s legitimate heir, but that’s not due to his being a bastard).

    Oathbreaking: Which oaths are we talking about? Cersei’s oath to Robert, which he and so many other husbands in Westeros break frequently? Jaime’s oath not to sleep with anyone? Is Jon Snow just as bad a guy as Jaime, then, since he broke his vows in the same way? Or is it that Jaime is sleeping with his King’s wife? Would it be better if Jaime slept with another lord’s wife, someone he hadn’t sworn an oath to?

    Treason is another symptom of the double standard where Robert can sleep around as much as he likes but Cersei loses her head if she sleeps with anyone, so I’m not going to consider that a serious moral objection to what she and Jaime do either.

    Basically, if you can get behind a queen having a love affair outside of marriage, and put aside the genetic crap that happens when kids are born of incest (which they didn’t know), then their having sex every once in a while doesn’t seem like the worst thing they can do…except they know they’re endangering their kids, which is why I can’t really forgive Jaime for trying to kill Bran. But Robert is just as guilty, if not more so, for creating the circumstances under which Jaime and Cersei’s kids are in danger, and therefore the murder of a child might avoid more harm than it inflicts.

  80. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Jentario:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    And they should have stopped the second one of them got married. Hell, taking the Targs as role models was never a good choice anyway (considering crazy children). But I agree with Sunspear: pushing Bran may have been the only logical thing to do in the moment, but they would never have reached that moment if they were actual good people (or gray or whatever). The point is that you shouldn’t look just at that decision but at all that led to it, with Jon Arryn and all. J&C didn’t even try to be more careful, and they were willing to do the deed and end a kid’s life more quickly than I give them credit for, and with absolutely no hesitation.

    “Should have stopped” is one thing…”Could have stopped” is another. I believe Jaime and Cersei’s situation, like many adulterous/nefarious lustfests that happen daily in this world (and in the fictional Westeros), can’t just be “stopped.” As a result, as GRRM has so eloquently described, shit happens. The complete unraveling of this decades-old taboo tryst between Jamie and Cersei is what we get to witness in the books.

    As fate would dictate, all the elements of their taboo tryst are being handled in their own way and a sort of omnicient punishment is definitely in progress:
    1) Jaime loses his sword hand
    2) Cersei is going mad
    3) Joff dies
    4) Poor Tommen…he just wants to play with his kittens
    5) What will become of Myrcella in Dorne if it is proven she has no Baratheon blood? Probably not good. The Martells will be pissed.
    6) Bran is becoming a Weirwood God
    7) The Lannister name is slowly being removed from power
    8) Jamie and Cersei’s brewing hate for each other in AFfC is as strong as their previous passion

    There are most-definitely consequences for their actions. I enjoy the various perspectives here. There is the staunch conservative “wrong is wrong and should have dire consequences”. There is the abuse of power and prevalent narcissism. There is the self-preservationist viewpoint that is omni-present in Westeros, everyone is affected and most every adult hand has dirt on it. There is the implied conspiracy attitude (and 3rd-party perspective) that comes with aristocracy. There is the obvious moral ambiguity throughout Westeros (as JA summarized). Is anything of this magnitude truly forgivable?

    Will any of this matter in the final outcome of Westeros? Consequences….? Personally, I think Cersei will be shredded mentally while Jaime will be shredded physically as the books progress. GRRM will systematically destroy these cursed characters.

    Damn good topic to explore though.

  81. SourPuss
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    roko195411:
    Emilia Clarke for fattest actress!

    That’s what a perfect 10 looks like you tosser. Incidentally, you will always be a tosser because you are clearly less well hung than Gollum and with that attitude will be a virgin for eternity. <3

  82. Aryastark
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    That’s the proof no one should give a shit about the pca: emilia has been nominated.

  83. Lord Davos
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Aryastark,

    Don’t give a shit about the emmys either, do you?

  84. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Joshua Atreides,

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    That Stark boy,

    Hodor Targaryen,

    Darkstar,

    Jentario,

    Sorry its been a minute since ive been on the site. I wanted to keep up with the Convo.
    As for the incest. Targs were getting away from it even when there were no dragons so saying thats why they could do it is not true. I believe it is somewhat exceptable.
    That being said. I could care less about the debate or morality when it come to incest because in my mind LOVE trumps it. The only other love that might come somehwat close to JC is many Jon Igritte. or maybe Tyrion Tysha. Theyve been in love since they were kids. so them having an affair is not morally wrong ‘to me’ when it comes to Cersie and Roberts marriage. He is unfaithful ALL the time and not for love. So no, I will say there love is something they can not deny and it is NOT morally wrong. As for the Oathbreaking, like i said before he already explained it. You have to break one oath to uphold another. So doing the right thing trumps that. He killed the mad king making it the moral and right thing to do.
    Now for the brann bit. Im pretty sure i stated he did what most people would of done.
    A lot of you have been saying its his fault for sleeping with his sister and being careless so he could get caught. He wasnt being careless. He was in a freaking tower that was never used. He was caught by a boy who was not supposed to be there. Brann was told not to climb not to go up there. But he did and he peeped and saw them. Now Jamie has a choice.

    Dont push Brann and turn you and your sister in. Get you, your sister, and your kids killed for the crime of loving someone your whole life and not being able to be without them, causing Tywin to march and start a war.
    Dont push Brann and try to talk to him and make him one way or another keep his mouth shut. This would obviosly be the most desirable outcome for everyone but i think we can agree Brann would of said something if not to Ned then to Jon and Rob. and in the end you again would be killing yourself your sister your kids and tywin would march starting a war killing thousands.
    Last option. Push Brann. one dead kid thousands of lifes spaired.

    Jamie did the right thing. Hes not a ‘villain’ ‘anit hero’ hes a ‘hero’
    As for Jon not being legitimate there for he cant hold the throne. Well that remains to be seen. As we know Targs married more then one bride at a time. Dorne is okay with this concept. so its possible that Raygar was married to Ellia and Lyanna. Making Jon ligitimate. or he could even possible be legitimized because he would of been the last Targ. making it still a crime to keep him from Robert no mater the reasons.

  85. sunspear
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    1. I do not need to explain why incest is bad. And as far as ‘genetically messed up kids’ goes: JOFFREY. And they did know about incest leading to madness, that’s what everyone blames the Targaryen’s antics on.

    2.Just because something else is doing it doesn’t make it right.

    3. If you want to throw out all social norms fine. Just remember you’re encouraging a civil war.

    4. Jon slept with Ygritte to keep his cover. Jaime does it for fun. Do not even pretend the two are the same thing.

    5.It isn’t the double standard. It’s a crime to sleep with the Queen because to prevent questions about who the heir to the throne is. You might notice there is some disagreement on that.

    And to wrap it up, Robert is not more morally culpable than Jaime. He made all the BS decisions that led to this turn of events.

  86. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Hodor Targaryen,

    1. I do not need to explain why incest is bad. And as far as ‘genetically messed up kids’ goes: JOFFREY. And they did know about incest leading to madness, that’s what everyone blames the Targaryen’s antics on.

    2.Just because something else is doing it doesn’t make it right.

    3. If you want to throw out all social norms fine. Just remember you’re encouraging a civil war.

    4. Jon slept with Ygritte to keep his cover. Jaime does it for fun. Do not even pretend the two are the same thing.

    5.It isn’t the double standard. It’s a crime to sleep with the Queen because to prevent questions about who the heir to the throne is. You might notice there is some disagreement on that.

    And to wrap it up, Robert is not more morally culpable than Jaime. He made all the BS decisions that led to this turn of events.

    Well if you wanna get into genetics it been proven that genetically problems wont start to come until the 3rd gen at the earliest. Actual fact. As for martinetics it was centuries of cross breading until the Targs start showing the signs. Joff is a product of his upbringing not a mad king.
    You are right. just because someone else is doing it doesnt make it right. Unless everyone is doing it then that does make it standard whichs makes it norm which makes it right. and from what ive read most people are not being true to there marriage partners so thats what the norm is. That being said I wouldnt say its right because everyone else is doing it id say its right because they were in love and theyve been in love and it was Jon Aryn and Tywin that set up the marriage not Robert and Cersie.
    Jon doing it to NOT blow his cover? I read that as he tells himself that to make him feel better about it, you cant actually believe he had sex with Igritte hundreds of times to NOT blow his cover, no he did it for love. Jamie doing it for fun? no i doubt hes fucking his sister for fun. same thing as Jon its for love.
    It may be a crime to sleep with the queen but in jamies case I feel it was right.
    But i do agree with you that Robert is more morally culpable. :)

  87. Kaldor
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    the name is misleading.

    how is it a people’s choice award when the industry restricts it to 5 nominations?

  88. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Dude, why the condescending dismissals? :(

    Whatevs.

  89. sunspear
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    No, Jaime is 100% not a hero, and ESPECIALLY not for pushing Bran out of a window. Bran’s family had long since given up on telling him not to climb. Trying to make getting shoved out a window Bran’s fault is the most ridiculous thing.

    Repeat after me:

    Jaime decided to have sex with his sister, violating his sacred oaths for no reason other than selfishness.

    Jaime put Tommen and Myrcella in danger by continuing to do something he knew full well would get them killed.

    Jaime shoved an innocent child off of a tower to save his own sorry skin.

    Let’s put this into context. Let’s say that someone sells crack for a living. His kids accidently get a hold of some, not knowing what it is, and a cop is going to arrest them for it. So the father shoots the cop in cold blood to protect them.

    Does that make the father a hero. Hell no it doesn’t! It makes him a murderer, just like Jaime Lannister.

  90. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    I like your viewpoint friend. Very open minded.

  91. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    Having your loved ones arrested is a world of difference than allowing you, your sister and your three children to be executed for a mistake you committed. If you put aside the fact of the incest of which what is done is done, Jaime pushed Bran to protect his loved ones from death. No one knows what they would do if the choice between saving your family or taking the life of a single boy to prevent bloodshed is placed before them. Of course as we know from Martin’s brilliant writing that this was not the end result. It’s why I love ASOIAF, where morality is questionable and our perceptions of what is, is challenged. I just don’t see it in a Judaeo-Christian conception of right and wrong. This world to me just doesn’t reflect that modern way of thinking. What’s interesting about GRRM’s world is that the only aspect of the Middle Ages we see is the notion of chivalry sans Christianity. The society is feudal but more cutthroat/pagan like that of Classical Greece and Rome.

    Also I thought Jaime had sex with Cersei because he loved her? It was in the end she who did not reciprocate once he was no longer the man that he had been.

  92. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    First bad analogy. selling crack wont get you the death sentence so the context is not the same. But yes he would be a murderer. I dont think i ever disputed that. but if we are going to go into analogys lets say that that same father, one time in his life, comes accross a man that had taken control of a bomb with the power to wipe out the most populated city in the country and his finger is on the button. So this father shoots this man right before he pushed the button.
    That makes him a fuckin Hero

  93. sunspear
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    It doesn’t matter who Jaime is trying to protect. He was the one who put them in harms way. Trying to protect your family does not excuse cold-blooded murder. There are acts so heinous that no amount of good intentions will make you a good a person.

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    Really? My analogy is bad because selling crack won’t get you a death sentence, but comparing Bran catching Jaime to committing a giant terrorist attack is OK?

    How’s this? A father’s son’s liver stops working because the father didn’t give him the medicine he needs. So he goes out and murders a guy so they’ll have a new organ donor.

    That doesn’t make him a hero. It makes him evil.

  94. Joshua Atreides
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    So Jaime is just evil? Not a morally grey complex character? George deserves more credit than that. We clearly are reading a different book/watching another show.

    Peace.

  95. WildSeed
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre: if you wanna get into genetics it been proven that genetically problems wont start to come until the 3rd gen at the earliest. Actual fact.

    This is indeed not fact. It’s well documented in all basic human
    Genetics texts, that Inbreeding produces far higher phenotypic expression of Lethal
    alleles and deleterious recessive genes in the first generation.
    Physical and health defects may not be easily discerned except by fetal or embryonal
    testing. There is an expansive list, I urge you to review it, for insight. Fact is, many
    individuals in the 1st generation, never live to reproduce. I was shocked myself, in
    learning this, even though I minored in Genetics. There are always factors which
    influence the coefficients, or probability factors, however most are deleterious, if not
    fatal. In GRRM’s world, Craster and Frey could produce as many offspring as the author would intend, but up close physically, and under a microscope, the results were none
    too pretty. I’ll accept that this discussion is abstract, so no real harm done.

    For some light reading, there’s a recent article in JoScience, that references breeding out
    of necessity, and Iceland in particular ( dated 2013 ). My recollection is that for isolated
    populations, or small migrating tribes exiting Africa to parts unknown, such inbreeding
    produced reduced genetic diversity ( formation of race or speciation ). In doing so, as
    reproduced from many genetic studies, those that survived produced a population that
    were in turn adapted to that ecosystem. Although this has been well known for more
    than half a century, it’s always interesting when new data rolls in. I wonder what
    the individuals of this particular document, would think of GRR Martin’s ” Targaryeon”
    family ( not counting the Blackfyre clan). As depicted, most Thenns appeared identical to each other in physical appearance, if not similar to old world Nordic countrymen ad women.

    Hodor Targaryen,

    I’m eager as ever, to discover the GoT based story arc, that Jaime Lannister portrays.
    As author GRRM continued his story, for Jaime’s moral progression, the insights
    and self discovery compelled me to appreciate him. Now his story, among others, I
    look forward to resuming, once TWoW begins. The onscreen writing is very annoying,
    if frustrating, because it appears that he’s reached this ” redemption “ phase
    too soon. On the other hand ( not Jaime’s.. hehe ), I probably should let go and enjoy
    the ride. I’m about to blow a fuse for Jon’s slower pace, but that’s a horse of a different
    colour ” . Your foray into political platform of sex in culture, is …….. brave *U*

    sunspear,

    You debate these points well, I follow your train of thought.

    Hodor Targaryen,

    Yup.

    Hodor’s Bastard: When you mentioned “around that time”, were you referencing our time or Westeros time? Certainly, even in “our current time,” some cultures and class systems tolerate “intimate relations” among relatives. But in GRRM’s world, I do believe he is using incestuous relations as “cautionary tales”. From the “mad king” Targaryens to Joff, the product of these relations has led to disaster and failure….and definitely not met with public approval. Imho, it is part of the “Power & Corruption/Dysfunction” motif in ASoI&F.

    Too bad GRRM hadn’t read historical chronicles of Jean V of Armagnac or reports of
    Hapsburger Lippe, during his spare time ( : Wait, he has no spare time, lol !
    Extinctions of dynasties is no laughing joke, though ) :

  96. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 13, 2013 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    …I’ll accept that this discussion is abstract, so no real harm done.

    I was wondering when you would weigh in on the topic, WS.

    There are so many elements and storylines within ASoI&F that are morally ambiguous and occupy grey areas of tolerance. I believe GRRM wants every reader to analyze these difficult situations and judge for themselves…none of his characters are above reproach, vilification or forgiveness. As we often grossly witness, drastic actions have extreme physical, mental, moral and emotional consequences.

    Even the concept of heroes and villains is ambiguous in ASoI&F. Character reconstruction/deconstruction is continuous and quite interesting in this crazy fictional world.

  97. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    You pretty much already responded the way I would have, I would just make a couple comments.

    1. On genetics, I bring it up not because I know anything at all about it (Wildseed might have minored in Genetics…I am minoring in English…) I just bring it up because our society is constantly reevaluating sexual taboos that earlier just didn’t feel right (gay sex, interracial sex, premarital sex, etc). Incest usually is distinguished from other sexual taboos because, unlike the examples I gave, it actually does harm (arguably). My challenge to sunspear still stands: if our basis for criticizing incest cannot realistically have been known by Cersei and Jaime, how can we criticize them?

    2. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that if it becomes a norm it is okay. I guess I’m not that much of a relativist. Societies have been perfectly okay with terrible practices in the past, doesn’t make those practices okay. I would agree, though, that Cersei has no obligation to only have sex with Robert, since she doesn’t love him and there’s no way to divorce him.

  98. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Haha I’m not sure how to take that “brave” comment. Oh well, I shall choose to feel flattered.

    Joshua Atreides,

    “It’s why I love ASOIAF, where morality is questionable and our perceptions of what is, is challenged.” Completely agree. What I love about ASoIaF is that we view people like the Starks attempting to be moral people in a world where the moral norms are such shit. We can continue to look at the world through Ned Stark’s eyes and just take the norms for what they are, and be willing to start a war over who should be king after Robert, for example. Or we can see the experiences of people like Jaime, who had to choose between social norms (not killing the man he swore to protect) and saving lives (killing a madman before he burned down the city). I find comments that so easily criticize people like Jaime so frustrating, since the major theme of the book series is about not taking these norms at face value.

  99. lord snow
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,
    i just loved what u said :)

  100. young wolf
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    i just loved what u said :)

    Jon Blackfiyre,

  101. WildSeed
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    True, so true, and more accurately put, we as readers gain some insights from GRRM’s
    perspective, his collage of geopolitical influences. None is immune from that. I like
    the way he weaves the full context of detail and intrigue , within those parameters.

    I cautioned myself , reading through book one, to not judge the characters or the story
    according to what I’d read so far. Each story segment evolved or decreased, in later
    chapters, as did my interest in a sole individual. Ned’s execution and the Tully-Frey
    wedding really ripped my emotion, but I understood that there is a larger plan, that
    makes sense to the author. So I allowed the merits of each volume speak for itself, with
    all the incessant details of great interest down to the the red herrings embedded within.
    I’d admit I favored the Starks, in book one, but the spiritual-mystical aspects intrigue
    me more.

    I believe this why I found some tolerance with those ” Sword of Truth” book series,
    with the messianic Richard Rahl, in part because I’m witnessing the author’s
    preconceived influences, shape a broad spectrum of human frailty .

    Good and Bad, may be necessary boundaries that societies need to govern their behaviours ,
    but these are useless in concept, if society forget the reason why or challenge in principle
    based on sound reasoning. In everything there is a balance. It’s nature’s law, not ours.
    We just have to gain knowledge to figure it out, and accept what remains necessary to
    sustain life. Everything else is negotiable, which includes more than we know, as well.
    I’m all for having fun and challenging belief of that which is unstable or fluctuating.
    Life is too sweet and short, to try to change the ( Earth ) moon’s libration. I’d rather
    observe take pretty pictures to ponder, the real fun is arguing Doctor Who trivia or
    rites of religion ( you would if you grew up in a Zoroastrian household in the Caribbean ).
    I’d prefer reading about Tolkien’s Elves, any day ( :

  102. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Good and Bad, may be necessary boundaries that societies need to govern their behaviours, but these are useless in concept, if society forget the reason why or challenge in principle based on sound reasoning.

    When I first read the Covenant books as a teenager last century, I was met with a huge reader challenge in the early chapters of the first book, Lord Foul’s Bane. The “protagonist”, Thomas Covenant, was a handicapped, anti-social, insecure leper in the real world who suddenly gets transferred to “The Land” after an accident. In this fantasy land of giants, magic and evil, he suddenly has all this questionable power and all his physical functions returned to him. What is the first thing he does with all this crazy virulent energy? He rapes a young girl. Damn…I spent the next six books fucking hating him and rooting for him within each subsequent chapter. Talk about moral ambiguity!

    Covenant is the ultimate anti-hero…he is cursed, miserable, invaluable, inconsolable…yet he is the key to the salvation of the Land….and his initial rape haunts him forever. He has ultimate power yet he can’t handle it. He is a walking anomaly, a hypocrite, an enigma. I see a similar vicious balance in Jaime, the Hound, in Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Ned, and others in ASoI&F. And that is where I find ASoI&F the most interesting.

  103. WildSeed
    Posted November 14, 2013 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    This series is new to me. I did a quick search engine check , and found the plot rather
    interesting, I may just order it ! I was hoping you weren’t referring to the Covenant
    series, written by J. Armentrout ( I read an excerpt in a magazine, and found in lacking ).

    Fantasy or no, many creative minds attempt to marry incongruent subjects, hoping to
    challenge reader imaginations, if not present day situations. Many are not up to the
    task, as careful research is essential to render a plausible and detailed story. I believe
    this is why I enjoy Octavia E. Butler’s small body of work, she weaves scientific fact
    with ( which is in itself, never final and evolving ) supernatural phenomena. Many have
    benefitted from her groundbreaking concepts, to move on to even greater chronicles.
    “Lilith’s Brood” will always remain high ( merit ) on my list . Wildseed embodies
    an idea of geo-political / historical and scientific / genetic influences, and weaving it
    into a fantasy. Nothing new, now,of course, but Xenogenesis remains an intriguing
    concept of interest, for me.

    Enough brain farts, I think I’d better eat some lunch. LOL.

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