Season 4 Casting Notes Roundup
By Ours is the Fury on in Casting.

It might be a sleepy time of year but Game of Thrones casting updates are trickling in nonetheless! Here’s a roundup of the latest news:

  • The Nolan Muldoon Agency confirms that Andy Kellegher will be reprising the role of Polliver in this upcoming season. The menacing Lannister soldier who stole Arya’s Needle and killed Lommy Greenhands was last seen in season 2.
  • It looks like we’ll be seeing Littlefinger’s spy Olyvar return in season 4 as well. Actor Will Tudor‘s agency CV now includes both seasons 3 and 4. Last year, we saw him dallying with Loras and then reporting back to his employer soon after. Will he be playing up to the Knight of Flowers again or will Littlefinger have Olyvar targeting someone new?
  • According to his CV, Gary Oliver will be playing a Braavosi Captain on an episode directed by Alex Graves. As we know, Graves is directing episodes 2, 3, 8 and 10 in season 4. Fans who have read A Storm of Swords can guess with whom the captain will be interacting. His appearance would presumably be in episode 8 or 10, depending on how long the show is able to stretch out key characters’ storylines this season.

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  • English actor Darren Kent will be playing a goatherd on an Alex Graves-directed episode in season 4, according to his CV. In an interview with the Southend Standard, Kent chats about meeting Nathalie Emmanuel and shared this photo of him in costume. He also hints at a storyline for the upcoming season with a few specifics. We’ve posted these *spoilers comments below the cut.*

  • Kent says of his part on the show, “My character is in a very important episode in the series – the dragons are completely out of control and it comes to a head in that episode.” He adds, “It’s not a massive role, but it is a very important one.” He also told the Southend Standard that it was “really harrowing. I didn’t stop crying for 25 minutes after we’d finished filming, I think most of the crew was crying too.”

Ours is the Fury:  It’s good to have Polliver’s return confirmed. I’m curious to see if Olyvar will be chatting up Loras, or someone else – like the Red Viper. The appearance of the Braavosi captain points toward a certain storyline ending in season 4 as many book-reading fans speculated it might, for that main character. And based on Kent’s remarks, it looks like we’ll be into Dany’s A Dance with Dragons material by the end of the season.


224 Comments

  1. Cary Storm
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Yes, happy to see we’re getting into some ADWD material at the end. Probably will be some AFFC too.

  2. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    This is the last bit of casting news :(

  3. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Cary Storm,

    We are getting into AFFC a bit too. Brienne and Pod have some scenes in the Riverlands.

  4. Sword of the Morning
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Seems like Dany’s ADwD storyline will begin this season? I’m guessing the goat herder scene will be in episode 10.

  5. ebevan91
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    The more I hear about this season the more I can’t wait!

  6. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    Regarding Will Tudor…”Last year, we saw him dallying with Loras and then reporting back to his employer soon after.”

    I guess that is one way to put it. Ridiculous scenes like that don’t help GoT’s cause when competing with other quality dramas.

  7. cubicz
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Olyvar is back but Where is CHEEEEESEBOOOOY???

  8. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    It’s even more ridiculous that Littlefinger would even need to employ a spy to go far as to bed Loras to obtain vital information. Why doesn’t he just have his own spies hide out in the garden where the conversation first arose? There’s tree’s, bushes, convenient posts and derelict stone walls to hide in, under or behind respectively, why go to all that bother of him showing off the spies in his service to Lord Eddard if you don’t follow up on that little bit of info, even one that’s a little dated now?

    I said this somewhere else, surely that’s not how he operates.

    Edit: on a similar note, I have a feeling Olyvar’s being brought back to take the place of Oswell Kettleblack or Lothor Brune, I’m sure D&D would go as far as to not formally cast either of them, so just roll them up into one single character, basically, they are like cookie dough to them; that came out wrong.

  9. Sunny
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Regarding Will Tudor…”Last year, we saw him dallying with Loras and then reporting back to his employer soon after.”

    I guess that is one way to put it. Ridiculous scenes like that don’t help GoT’s cause when competing with other quality dramas.

    Yeah I know. They need to straighten up so they could be nominated for some best drama awards at the emmys and maybe crack the top 5 in IMDB’s top Television shows of all time. Terrible show. Just awful.

  10. The Spider
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Wow I thought season 4 was just going to be the end of book 3 but they are going to actually show some book 4 and. 5 stuff. At this rate they will absolutely 100% catch up to the books since GRRM is writing slower than he ever has. It would be a shame if the series finished before the books were completed

  11. Ours is the Fury
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Well I don’t see the difference between the scene with Olyvar and the scenes with Littlefinger’s other prostitutes. The scene with Pod was far more ridiculous. (Not that it wasn’t entertaining at all. Just saying.)

  12. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    FINALLY some of my show only friends will maybe understand why I don’t like Daenerys. Up until now the sun has kinda been shining out of her ass.

  13. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    The girl’s death was completely unpredictable to Dany, who till that point did not know how animalistic her dragons are. You can’t blame her for that. You can say she should have been more careful, but hating her for that scene is wrong IMO.

  14. Sunny
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Dany is so evil. She is the only person in Westeros/Essos responsible for innocent people dying.

  15. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    Sunny,

    half-a-dozen bastards might disagree with you there.

  16. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Sunny,
    Ours is the Fury,

    Uh-oh…touched a nerve there. Fortunately, the classic, endearing moments of GoT far outweigh the silly filler moments that are there to equalize the HBO-mandated ratio of male/female full frontal shots.

  17. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I’m pretty sure that was sarcasm, dude.

  18. Abyss
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Well I don’t see the difference between the scene with Olyvar and the scenes with Littlefinger’s other prostitutes.

    I agree. I saw the scene as evidence that LF understands Doreah’s teachings. “Men like to talk when they’re happy.” ;-)

    Btw, has there been a post about this casting of the girl that meets Arya? The name of the actress has escaped me…

  19. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    Yeah…it’s the little character “spying” dynamics like you mention regarding LF, Varys, and Cersei that matter (to me) in this tale. Not only did that scene insult Loras, it insulted LF as well. I know I am in the minority here, but given the way the show has handled Loras thus far, I’d rather see him discarded by Cersei or Jaime outright rather than invade Dragonstone….(but is Loras really injured severely during the sack? Or is that just another theoretical Tyrell mummery?).

  20. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    I think it was Trixiebelle Harrowell. I saw her in a Christmas episode of Not Going Out (the British studio sitcom) recently, though her’s was a very minor role.

  21. serum
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    great news all around! Im hoping we get some kind of teaser preview this weekend before the premier of True Detective!

  22. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I don’t think it insults LF, but it definitely shows that show Loras is nothing like the book version. On top of him being much less of a badass (if at all), they made him into a gay stereotype (suddenly he likes shopping and pretty clothes and ponies and rainbows). I don’t really care much for the character in the books, but it’s still blatantly obvious to me that D&D made a mistake on this one.

    Still love ‘em though. I forgive!

  23. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    serum,

    That’s the general consensus. By this time last year, we already had a BTS video and a teaser that showed the release date. It’s about time we get something, and that’s the best place to do it. Before a hyped series premier.

  24. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    [Truth, ser. All is forgiven]

    However, I secretly hope that Brienne and Loras get to have a rematch, with an outcome that will linger in our souls forever.

    :)

  25. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    Didn’t say I hate her for that scene. Nor did I say I hate her at all. I said I don’t like her. I was referring to the fact that they’re getting into DwD territory, where she makes the majority of her bad decisions. IMO she isn’t much better than her brother or any other delusions of grandeur Targaryen. She is better, but only slightly. However, my dislike for her is probably partially because I got tired of waiting for her to become relevant to the rest of the characters. But I do have reasons for disliking her apart from that. Don’t really feel like writing it all out here though…so nah.

  26. Abyss
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    Yes, thanks, that was the name and as it turns out there was a post about it.

  27. mariamb
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Jentario:
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I don’t think it insults LF, but it definitely shows that show Loras is nothing like the book version. On top of him being much less of a badass (if at all), they made him into a gay stereotype (suddenly he likes shopping and pretty clothes and ponies and rainbows). I don’t really care much for the character in the books, but it’s still blatantly obvious to me that D&D made a mistake on this one.

    Still love ‘em though. I forgive!

    Agree. I hated the scene between Loras and Olyvar and the subsequent one with LF. I’m not sure why certain decisions were made with Show Loras but he is quite different from Book Loras.

    I’m curious to see how his story line goes forward: will he become part of the KG? will they try to retcon Willas and/or Garlan into the show?

  28. Patchy Face
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Haha – I first read your statement that “Loras is severely injured in the sack”

  29. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Patchy Face,

    LMAO! Totally unintentional….but maybe a Freudian slip. Thx, PF!

    mariamb:
    I’m curious to see how his story line goes forward: will he become part of the KG? will they try to retcon Willas and/or Garlan into the show?

    With Jaime & Brienne in the picture and the Cersei-Loras Tywinization, things may not look so good for Loras.

  30. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    Misunderstanding then. But I think comparing her to Viserys doesn’t do Dany justice. She’s much better than him. She actually has morals, even if she sometimes goes overboard with her revenge.

  31. Patchy Face
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,
    Just have to face that everyone has there love/hate relationships with these characters (says good things about GRRM character development). I, for one, like Dany more than others in the books as well as the show and dislike the Greyjoys – find their story not to my taste. But others out there feel quite the opposite. So it really is just personal preference.

  32. KG
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I thought the Pod scene was ludicrously overdone. It was like the Scary Movie folks decided to do a Game of Thrones segment.

  33. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I think it makes total sense that LF would hire a spy to sleep with someone. People are more likely to tell someone something in a night of passion than they are going to mention details of a super secret plan near a bush that just so happens to be hiding an LF spy, which would be far too convenient for LF.

    I actually appreciated how the scene showed HOW Littlefinger got the information, as opposed to referring to his vague ability to get information.

  34. Pau
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    That we have to argue about such absurd details show how great this show is.

    I just saw Deadwood first season back to back in 2 days and I wasn’t so dissapointed by a tv series since the finale of lost. I was expecting a 10 and got a 6.5. There are so much better westerns out there…for example Justified, wich just returned yeterday.

    Why do people like Deadwood so much? Does it get better after season 1?

    While I watched it I couldn’t help to continously wonder that if we disected the show scene by scene as we do with GoT it’d get completely butchered…

    PS: Sorry for the typos

  35. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    Read TP&tQ and you will lose any faith you might have in the Targaryen destiny and prophesy. It takes place about 169 years before ASoI&F. The Targs were awful strategists, narcissistic, reactive and immature, headed toward self-destruction. After their Dance of Dragons, their sole hope was Aegon (from the D&E tales)…at least he brought back some dignity to their reign. Hopefully, GRRM brings some of their prophesy and dignity forward with Dany’s tale in future books…but she has some major heredity issues to overcome (which caused Viserys’s undoing).

  36. Walter Harrow
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Any news on a teaser/trailer?

  37. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    I guess I was just being a book purist (albeit one who read the books after 3 seasons of the show) hoping they’d actually make use of the Dontos casting. Not too late some of you may say, but certainly they didn’t need to bring in a TV only character if they already had the other guy. Dontos was even meant to spar with Lothor at the tourney, the very guy who could tip off Littlefinger! Now they bring him back after a long break (couldn’t even get him for Tyrion’s leg-up moment either) and expect people to remember he was juggling in Maegor’s Holdfast during Blackwater.

  38. Hodoreo
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t the goat herder the guy who confronts Dany when Drogon killed his daughter?

  39. ACatLover
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Walter Harrow:
    Any news on a teaser/trailer?

    Don’t you think it would be posted if there was? Also, there’s always Google.

    We probably won’t get anything for at least a few more weeks, if not a month-plus.

  40. asdf
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    are victarion and euron cut?

  41. Pau
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    asdf:
    are victarion and euron cut?

    Not yet

  42. Pau
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Hodoreo:
    Isn’t the goat herder the guy who confronts Dany when Drogon killed his daughter?

    Yes

  43. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,
    Valyrian Plastic:
    Dontos, oh Dontos, where art thou? Joff’s wedding is nigh and you are nary to be seen in my prayer garden or heard as a whisper in the wind. My predicament after Joff’s wedding, as Tyrion’s false wife, is unclear and I have no word. Littlefinger once said “wait for my signal” but he has gone far away and now I fear for my life. Hast thou forsaken me, oh Dontos?

  44. Balerion
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Euron and Victarion skipped to season five??

  45. Patchy Face
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    ACatLover,

    We are hoping for SOMETHING this weekend with premier of True Detective – maybe a date for GoT debut or a Behind the Scenes – don’t really expect a trailer though

  46. Jordan
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Balerion,

    Seems plausible/likely. In a recent “Flicks and the City” interview (those have been really good about asking GOT cast members clever/on point questions), the interviewer commented on Yara’s cool cameo last season and whether there would be a repeat this season, and from the way Gemma Whelan answered, I think that is a “yes”.

    I’m not sure how much she will appear this season, but I imagine her last scene will involve a raven announcing Balon’s death and/or Euron’s return.

  47. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Pau:
    That we have to argue about such absurd details show how great this show is.

    I just saw Deadwood first season back to back in 2 days and I wasn’t so dissapointed by a tv series since the finale of lost. I was expecting a 10 and got a 6.5. There are so much better westerns out there…for example Justified, wich just returned yeterday.

    Why do people like Deadwood so much? Does it get better after season 1?

    While I watched it I couldn’t help to continously wonder that if we disected the show scene by scene as we do with GoT it’d get completely butchered…

    PS: Sorry for the typos

    I love Game of Thrones, but Deadwood is easily my favorite show of all-time. It can be a bit obtuse and difficult to follow, sure, considering I’ve been through the series in its entirety four times now and almost always find something new to enjoy or help in my understanding of the plot and the characters.

    For first-time viewers, I almost always recommend that they follow along with the retrospective review series from The A.V. Club, as they can be very helpful in sussing out the who, what, why, etc. of the show – without spoiling anything, of course. As long as you were to avoid the comments sections, at most you’d get some very minor spoilers.

    There’s no accounting for taste, but for my money, there’s never been a better written show than Deadwood. The performances, the production values, the music – everything about it is top-notch.

    I would definitely recommend that you keep watching, as the second season is easily the best of the three, but I would also recommend that you read through the reviews for the season one episodes first here:

    http://www.avclub.com/review/deadwood-deadwooddeep-waterreconnoitering-the-rim-28732

    Then do the same when you’ve finished the second and third season.

  48. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Have not read TPATQ yet, and I may actually wait for the full version in the GRRMarillion, but I have to say that dead 200 year old Targs aren’t likely to change my opinions on Dany.

  49. Rob wind resurrected
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    Dany’s and Jon Snow’s Dance of Dragons stuff. Oh Fuck! Ratings will drop. They are the two great faces of the show. Imagine to the audience dismay as nothing happens for two seasons with their favorite characters. Unbeknownst to the poor viewer, Dany will discusses Mereen politics and finger herself thinking of home and Dario while getting married…boring. Unbeknownst to the poor viewer, Jon Snow will count food store inventory inside the wall and go to mole town for recruits…insipid.
    In contrast, In D&D we trust. I know they relize what a bore snore these two popular characters are in Dance. They will spice them up greatly. With Dave and Dave the rating will be fine.

  50. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I dont understand whats so bad about the Loras Olyvar scene. Loras isnt a player in the game and would give up this kind of info farely easily. This is that exact way LF would use his spies. They wouldnt keep spies hidden behind the bushes in fear of getting caught I would think. The only character assassination that is done is that some people dont believe that Loras would sleep with someone else so soon after Renely and as for Loras overly flambouent steriotype. Yes its a little overly done but honestly not much. They way I read Loras was a

    Jentario:

    (suddenly he likes shopping and pretty clothes and ponies and rainbows).

    type of guy

  51. Jentario
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    Nah, that was Renly. He fills almost every part of that list, come to think of it.

  52. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    Maybe, but after discovering Renly’s corpse he killed 2 of the Rainbow Guard in his rage. In the show he’s just like: “Oh, I’m so pissed, and I don’t think it was Brienne who killed him” {shudder} (I’m shit at dialogue ‘case you couldn’t tell). That botched a moment that could’ve made for a more interesting cliffhanger for J&B’s arc than Jaime saying “Cersei” and her turning to see her lover down a hand and up a beard.

  53. Harry Lime
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    I’m so glad that they’re getting into the “dragons out of control” storyline this season. That should make for a much better end to Dany’s storyline than her just taking over yet another city and deciding to stay.

  54. John
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Rob wind resurrected:
    Dany’s and Jon Snow’s Dance of Dragons stuff.Oh Fuck! Ratings will drop. They are the two great faces of the show. Imagine to the audience dismay as nothing happens for two seasons with their favorite characters. Unbeknownst to the poor viewer, Dany willdiscusses Mereen politics and finger herselfthinking of home and Dario while getting married…boring.

    First: Spoilers!

    Second: You totally should read this: Untangling the Meereenese Knot :-)

    Cited from there:
    “Meereen. The mere word probably makes you groan. It’s considered to be the weakest, most frustrating plotline in ADWD, and perhaps in in the whole series. [...]
    I used to agree with all of those criticisms — but I’ve come to believe that they’re all actually quite wrong. In these essays I’ll debunk them. After a reread (or several), and much productive discussion on various forums, I now firmly believe that ADWD is the smartest, most complex, and most thought-provoking book in the series.”

    Enjoy!

  55. Roarshac
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Sullied people that want to have their minds blown with a razor sharp analysis of the characters, should really read this blog:

    http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/
    Especially the 5 parts about Dany, that might give some people new perspective on her actions.

    I’m not worried about Dany’s and Jon’s part being boring, in D&D I trust.

  56. Lef
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    John,

    Thanks for that link, it looks like an interesting read.. and I’m craving for anything ASOIAF related right now. ;)

  57. Roarshac
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    John,

    Lol, John. Great minds.. :)

  58. Clob
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Pau: I just saw Deadwood first season back to back in 2 days and I wasn’t so dissapointed by a tv series since the finale of lost. I was expecting a 10 and got a 6.5. Why do people like Deadwood so much?

    I’ve seen all of Deadwood and while I enjoyed it enough I wouldn’t put in my top 10 shows ever. I’ve seen many comments from people over the years that put it somewhere top three. There’s nothing wrong with feeling that way since people like different types of shows. Personally though the show overall wasn’t done in a way that appeals the best way to me and I felt they didn’t do several things that I would have liked. One major issue I had is that it was too “claustrophopic” for me, like a soap opera, being nearly all in a handful of rooms and the street between. That’s just me though. *shrug*

  59. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre:
    I dont understand whats so bad about the Loras-Olyvar scene. Loras isnt a player in the game and would give up this kind of info fairly easily. This is that exact way LF would use his spies.

    I believe Loras is a “player in the game” but his scenes with Olyvar, Sansa, and Cersei in S3 completely repulsed me. It’s as if you have to find an excuse to like him. He fucks and tells easily, he engages in silliness with Sansa that is entirely beneath him, he can’t even joust with Cersei, he lingers near / clings to Margaery, even his relatives disrespect and joke about him (see our awards results)….he is just a weak personality. Was that intentional by the showrunners? Of course it is…they are getting ready to discard him, imo.

    Valyrian Plastic:
    Jon Blackfiyre,
    Maybe, but after discovering Renly’s corpse he killed 2 of the Rainbow Guard in his rage. In the show he’s just like: “Oh, I’m so pissed, and I don’t think it was Brienne who killed him” {shudder} (I’m shit at dialogue ‘case you couldn’t tell). That botched a moment that could’ve made for a more interesting cliffhanger for J&B’s arc than Jaime saying “Cersei” and her turning to see her lover down a hand and up a beard.

    I’ll never understand that shit. No reason was given for that statement he made to Margaery. Brienne should be on his hate list since the tourney joust and Renly murder. Wtf, Loras? Get some balls, dude!

  60. Jim
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Deadwood is pretty easily a top three show of all time.

    It’s a good measuring stick of how much I’ll like a person.

  61. Zeus
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    I’ve read the mereneese website and still don’t care about Danys storyline. It’s boring as all hell. At least this season people will start to realize she’s an impulsive targaeryan brat like the rest of them. And that her kewl pets are actually vicious monsters.

  62. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    John,
    Roarshac,
    Totally agree. Been visiting that site since it started in Sept 2013. Mr. Feldman’s insights are valuable in any ADwD discussion, especially discussions regarding Slaver’s Bay events and adaptation to the screen.

  63. Jordan
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I have to note that Loras in the book is basically characterized as an arrogant jerk, and not necessarily too bright (depending on how much stock you place in Oleanna calling people stupid).

    So, I kind of think that the show actually gave him more characterization than the books- it just wasn’t really good characterization.

    In retrospect, maybe the show should have had him kill Renly’s knights (as in the book) rather than having Brienne do so.

    Loras’ other salient trait is of course his love for Renly, but I don’t think his actions so far really contradict that and I can still see them giving him his candle speech this season and otherwise filling out his character- maybe in conversation with Jaime

  64. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Rob wind resurrected,
    You censored the rest of your alias? Have you gone all PG-13 on us? :)

  65. Taena
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    GRRM has said (here) that Littlefinger is the character that has changed the most for the show, so I think using Olyvar for spying is about showing how insidious ‘show’ Littlefinger is. They have given Littlefinger a lot of air time but I think that’s because they have changed him so much.

    Don’t care much about Loras in the book or on the show tbh. Although now you mention it, I do agree with ‘Hodor’s Bastard’ and others that they have made him a gay stereotype, which is pretty uncool.

    And is it just me, or have we not seen him do any of the awesome fighting/jousting he is famed for? (With the exception of looking smug unhorsing the Mountain in series one)

  66. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    I have to note that Loras in the book is basically characterized as an arrogant jerk, and not necessarily too bright…

    ….maybe in conversation with Jaime

    I very much look forward to a scene with Loras-Jaime, as well as Loras-Brienne…maybe all three, and maybe with Cersei in the mix! God, what an awkward horrorshow!

  67. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Taena:
    And is it just me, or have we not seen him do any of the awesome fighting/jousting he is famed for? (With the exception of looking smug unhorsing the Mountain in series one)

    I, for one, miss those displays….especially since he assisted in Blackwater (and his brother wore Renly’s armor!)…but sadly, that was not shown.

    Please also note that he jousted with Brienne at the Bitterbridge tourney in S2 and got his ass handed to him. [Yearning for Brienne v Loras, Round 2!]

  68. Tom
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who is extremely disturbed by that picture in the bottom right? Please, kill it with fire.

  69. Jordan
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I’m not sure how much you are criticizing this from a faithfulness to the books standard, but we do see Loras wearing Renly’s armor and coming in during the Blackwater in the show- it’s pretty much identical to the book except for Loras wearing the armor rather than Garlan.

    And Brienne defeats Loras at that joust in the book too.

    I’m not clear, are you arguing for a Loras/Brienne fight this season in which he curbstomps her? (Oddly, I got the impression from another post that you think the show will have the two fight and Brienne will kill Loras)

  70. Taena
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I, for one, miss those displays….especially since he assisted in Blackwater (and his brother wore Renly’s armor!)…but sadly, that was not shown.

    Please also note that he jousted with Brienne at the Bitterbridge tourney in S2 and got his ass handed to him. [Yearning for Brienne v Loras, Round 2!]

    OMG yeah! I’d forgotten. Obviously made a real impression on me lol!

    It is an interesting choice that the showrunners haven’t shown us any scenes of him being awesome. In the book he’s supposed to be this legendary swordsman as well and you just don’t get that from the show. Perhaps he will befriend Tommen at some point and we’ll get to see him teaching it.

  71. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I really was just responding to Taena’s question regarding “have we seen Loras fighting anywhere else?” Thx for pointing out the brief scene from Blackwater that showed him fighting in Renly’s armor. Go, Loras!

    For some reason, Loras has been on my radar since S2. I didn’t like his reaction to Renly’s murder and I always wanted to have a Brienne v Loras, rnd 2….and I want Brienne to kill him outright, then Jaime helps her escape to seek Arya/Sansa.. If I have ever stated otherwise, please slap me silly.

  72. Pau Captain Soriano
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga: I love Game of Thrones, but Deadwood is easily my favorite show of all-time. It can be a bit obtuse and difficult to follow, sure, considering I’ve been through the series in its entirety four times now and almost always find something new to enjoy or help in my understanding of the plot and the characters.

    For first-time viewers, I almost always recommend that they follow along with the retrospective review series from The A.V. Club, as they can be very helpful in sussing out the who, what, why, etc. of the show – without spoiling anything, of course. As long as you were to avoid the comments sections, at most you’d get some very minor spoilers.

    There’s no accounting for taste, but for my money, there’s never been a better written show than Deadwood. The performances, the production values, the music – everything about it is top-notch.

    I would definitely recommend that you keep watching, as the second season is easily the best of the three, but I would also recommend that you read through the reviews for the season one episodes first here:

    http://www.avclub.com/review/deadwood-deadwooddeep-waterreconnoitering-the-rim-28732

    Then do the same when you’ve finished the second and third season.

    Thanks. But I don’t feel the show has earn it yet ;) I’ll keep on watching though.

    But I have no problem following the plot, really. Actors are good but I still don’t see anything special about it. You didn’t tell me why is it so good , either. I just saw a moment of what it could be during episode seven (the relationship between Cy and Joanie) but that’s about it (plus I really hate actors with cosmetic surgery done to them star in period pieces)

    Maybe my biggest issue is that as a western, it’s a really bad one. As I said Justified is much better, and Olyphant is also much better in it too, imo. So is Pale rider, or Unforgiven, or Red Country by Joe Abercrombie, or True Grit, just to mention modern ones. I thought Deadwood was the show that captured the essence of the old westerns and gave it new life. Is not a good western.

    Also, theres no Greek or Shakespearean tragedy to be found, except on the only interesting characters (for me), Al and Trixie, and very, very remotely so. As if it was a sin.

    I really want to like it though.

    Jim:
    Deadwood is pretty easily a top three show of all time.

    It’s a good measuring stick of how much I’ll like a person.

    Then you would not like me very much, and you’d be missing out ;)

  73. Lucy
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Sunny,

    By the end of book 5 she realises that by hanging around in Meereen for so long like an idiot she’s lost her way, ‘turning her back’ on her dragons and who she is. I was starting to hate her up until that point, but it’s an understandable character diversion (and way for GRRM to bide time building other storylines…)

  74. Pau
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Ok so I was curious and I read some of that AV article and after doing it I stand convinced: Deadwood is not a western.

    Seems to be a nice essay about the building of a community, though. Albeit a bit predictable one :P

  75. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Taena,

    Per Jordan’s comment, I went back and reviewed the final Blackwater battle (after Tyrion gets betrayed and slashed) and the brief scenes with Loras swinging his sword on a horse are impressive. Worth a rewatch. Loras should be in his armor and helm at all times, imo.

  76. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Taena,

    Well, we’ve had him lose to Brienne and sparring with another fellow before hooking up with the Olyvar in question.

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    They’ve shown him to be more of a lightweight that is true, but I think this may be them tailoring the character toward Finn Jones strengths or lack thereof. In Season 3 they used him mainly for comic relief, which I take it some people (particularly on a Forum of Ice and Fire) were irritated by.

    If people want to see more arrogance and standoffishness from him though we have this from the leaked call sheet. http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/41638612315945528407547705682000213020n.jpg If people care about that aspect of his characters being highlighted again (which I don’t), that would be a sign of it.

  77. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    BTW. Thank you Ours is the Fury, for making this thread. Some of us begged for it the other day and we are happy to have a nice scrap thrown to us!

  78. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    In Season 3 they used him mainly for comic relief, which I take it some people (particularly on a Forum of Ice and Fire) were irritated by.

    Oh, the irritation.

    Yes, that call sheet is indeed a curiosity.

    In ASoS, it is Loras’s outburst toward Brienne that gets her jailed. There should be nothing but antagonism between her and Loras. I just can’t get past that flaw in the show. As I mentioned with Jordan, these meetings at the PW should prove most interesting….hopefully there are more than what we have read! Imho, it can’t be good for Loras, for many reasons.

  79. Jordan
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I kind of wonder why you think that Loras is so unsalvagable that having Brienne kill him is the only/best thing the show can do with his character.

  80. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    It’s true that in show canon Loras doesn’t believe Brienne killed Renly, but they could still have him resent her for being granted a place in his kingsguard and defeating him.

    Personally, I think that Brienne may be arrested at the wedding, as we know she’ll approach the King and Queen from that callsheet. I think the Tyrells will play her false and make promises to her when she meets Margaery and the QoT in the garden (from that Croatia shoot, a scene supposedly in ep. 1) and turn on her.

  81. House Mormont
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    *ignores Loras comments because I’ve gotten angry over his character-assassination and diversion many times*

    1) So will Polliver be with the mountain’s gang in the early season? I can’t even remember what he looks like so I’ll need some needle close ups to reaffirm.

    2) Why does Dany coming into problems make you hate the character? In fact the only reason she makes no progress is because she wants to be a GOOD person by not letting the millions in Meereen die and not have her dragons murder innocents. If she wanted to be dick she could have just sacked Meereen and spent their money on ships for the Unsullied to make the trip to Westeros. Personally, I find the political knot fascinating (mostly after reading meereeneseblot) and considering the show has had a backbone of political knots in King’s Landing, I’m sure it’ll be fine

  82. House Mormont
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Besides, it’ll translate a lot better on TV, especially if her Season 4 arc ends with the chaining of the dragons, which will be more tragic and dramatic. The loss of her dragons will mirror Robb losing Winterfell at the end of Season 2, and when Yunkai close in for war in the middle of season 5 it’ll look like the end for her, the audience will probably be relieved when she signs for peace. And then after all that horror and all that self-sacrifice she’s been through, Daznak’s pit will happen and she can end of a high again

  83. UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Any confirmation that the brotherhood without banners are returning? Havent seen anything about the actors re-appearing

  84. Kyle
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Is it customary to reach out and ask an agency if an actor belonging to their company is working on a film/show? Or is this announced only if the agency so chooses?

    I ask this because I know of Ian Gelder’s agency, but I’ve been too afraid to contact and ask if he’s returning as Kevan Lannister.

  85. Valakarr
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Those essays totally altered my perspective on that while segment of the story. Thanks for the link. He raises a lot of good points, and is right about the reread, and subtleties.
    John,

  86. House Mormont
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Kyle,

    please do it, I don’t see why they’d be secretive about it, unless it was a big name

  87. Rickard Greyjoy
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Add me to those who consider ‘Deadwood’ to be one of the greatest shows of all time. However, if you were expecting an action packed, shoot em up type western with duels and gun battles in the streets on a daily basis then you were expecting the wrong kind of show. I think it’s strengths more lie in the dialogue, character development and interaction between characters. There is also some great humor packed in there too.
    Don’t get me wrong, there is some action. Just not a lot. I think where it succeeds where other westerns fail is that it actually gets you to relate to the characters and what pioneer life would really be like back then. Rather than paint the characters as action/super hero types who are invincible hard asses who can’t be killed.
    For what it’s worth I like Justified as well but for entirely different reasons. I especially like the villians in the series. I’d place it easily in my top ten to fifteen shows but for me, Deadwood is easily top 3 if not number 1. It won’t be everyone’s cup of tea though and that’s fine.

  88. dsfaegal
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor:
    Any confirmation that the brotherhood without banners are returning? Havent seen anything about the actors re-appearing

    Apparently, only Berric Dondarion is confirmed.
    http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Season_4

  89. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    dsfaegal,

    Well, Paul Kaye was spotted in Belfast a couple times (from twitterers over the summer) but he was also shooting that same Dracula movie that Art Parkinson was…so it could be one or the other, though my bet’s on both.

    For Beric, they cite a flicksandthecity interview but I wouldn’t say that’s proper confirmation. He never once says clearly in that video that he’s actually back for season 4. One would think that he probably will be, given what’s coming up… but I wouldn’t consider that link as a proper source.

  90. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    I kind of wonder why you think that Loras is so unsalvagable that having Brienne kill him is the only/best thing the show can do with his character.

    Interesting question…and I’ll put forth my rationale for all to shoot down and dismember. Please note that my #1 reason has already been stated: Loras should think that Brienne killed his Renly (un-fucking-forgiveable, imho). But I won’t use that again due to show canon.

    1) Tywin has set up Loras to marry Cersei…yeah right, he’ll be dead or compromised soon. Cersei’s dire madness is just beginning…
    2) If Loras has any of the arrogance that was present in the books, his chiding by Cersei would lead to much more serious confrontations or betrayal
    3) Jaime/Cersei could easily redirect their grief for Joff’s death at Loras, further complicating the Lannister-Tyrell relations…finger-pointing at Tyrion and the Tyrells will be obvious, especially given Sansa’s convos with Margaery and QoT.
    4) Maybe Loras witnesses Jaime and Cersei fucking over Joff’s corpse?
    5) Per book canon, if Loras is indeed dying after the sack of Dragonstone, why not kill him earlier? How much does he matter in GRRM’s TWoW vision?
    6) S3 established him as weak and compromisable….why not take it further?
    7) See GreenJones response above: Brienne v Loras (do what the books should have done). Brienne would win.

    House Mormont,
    In no way is this char assassination (unless you mean a literal assassination). I respected Loras in the books but GRRM even seemed to discard him after ASoS. Unless his dying is truly a mummery and he is really prepping the Redwyne navy for KL overthrow, then what harm is it if he perishes early?. It will only add to the KL drama.

  91. Zack
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Jim:
    Deadwood is pretty easily a top three show of all time.

    It’s a good measuring stick of how much I’ll like a person.

    We could be best pals.

  92. cosca
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    Wow, never knew anyone actually cared about Loras.

  93. Ours is the Fury
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    dsfaegal: Apparently, only Berric Dondarion is confirmed.
    http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Season_4

    yeah I’ve seen that interview they’re citing. He beautifully sidesteps actually confirming his return for season 4. Paul Kaye was in Belfast, but like someone else said, but it’s impossible to tell if he was there for GoT or Dracula that week. It used to be GoT was the only game in town, but with so many shows/movies filming there- well, it’s gotten complicated. Someone saw Philip McGinley (Anguy) tweet that he would be filming for season 4 but then he deleted the tweet.

    So back to square one, which is…it seems likely we’ll see them at least once, but no official confirmation.

  94. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    *ignores Loras comments because I’ve gotten angry over his character-assassination and diversion many times*

    1) So will Polliver be with the mountain’s gang in the early season? I can’t even remember what he looks like so I’ll need some needle close ups to reaffirm.

    2) Why does Dany coming into problems make you hate the character? In fact the only reason she makes no progress is because she wants to be a GOOD person by not letting the millions in Meereen die and not have her dragons murder innocents. If she wanted to be dick she could have just sacked Meereen and spent their money on ships for the Unsullied to make the trip to Westeros. Personally, I find the political knot fascinating (mostly after reading meereeneseblot) and considering the show has had a backbone of political knots in King’s Landing, I’m sure it’ll be fine

    People get annoyed at the prospect of Jon and Dany being too perfect fantasy heroes. Then they get annoyed that they made some mistakes in their first cracks at ruling. It’s a little contradictory. I like that they haven’t been perfect and think their will be lots of interesting character development for both of them in TWOW.

  95. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    I’m cool with them bringing Olyvar back. In general the show could do with a bit less sexposition and sex/nudity that isn’t actually necessary (no problem when it serves a purpose). If they are going to do lots of sexposition, I’m glad there will be a little gender parity. Bring him on.

    I still haven’t seen Deadwood. Is it something that people who don’t usually like westerns would enjoy? I like Firefly and Blazing Saddles, but other than that typical westerns aren’t my cup of tea.

  96. Jordan
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    A couple of thoughts:

    Although it seems in retrospect to have been a poor change, I honestly think that the show didn’t have Loras kill his fellow knights/didn’t have him suspect Brienne in a misguided attempt at making him sympathetic. In terms of the latter, Loras’ logic is pretty much “I know she loved Renly and would never do anything to hurt him”- It shows him in a positive light that while he was sort of “jealous” of her, his love for Renly sort of lead him in the show to empathize and so not suspect her.

    And as for killing his fellow knights, it’s not so much bad ass as a typical example of an ASOIF character doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

    Basically, I feel like with this act and having him suspect Brienne, that they do tie into his later meeting with her, but there’s no reason that Loras can’t be an interesting character and not do these things.

    I’m not quite sure what developments will allow it, but I definitely see Loras joining the Kingsguard and developing as a foil to Jaime in the same way he was in the books. Come to think of it, it is interesting that in the show, Brienne is now aware of the Loras/Renly relationship “thanks” to Jaime.

    As for Loras’ current situation in the books, the blogger Nobody Suspects the Butterfly posted something very interesting, citing precedent in an earlier Martin book (I think “The Dying of the Light”): So, apparently the forerunner of Sandor Clegane is a character who started out as this Loras-like pretty boy (not sure how similar in personality, but similar in looks) before getting horribly burned. Martin loves disfiguring characters, so that is quite likely what happened to Loras- he lost his good looks in some horrible fashion, but is probably not too badly injured otherwise

    Pau Captain Soriano,

    Off-topic, but I love Joe Abercrombie’s books, especially Red Country. Kind of strange to see it offered as a better Western though in that it borrows elements from like every Western out there, especially The Searchers, Unforgiven, and Deadwood itself.

  97. Arthur
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    THIS!!!

    http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Season_4

    Just reading this was like as good as a trailer… Thanks to whoever linked this on this thread… Wow, season 4 is going to kick ass! This article really brings back from memory all that we get to see in a few months…

    Just reading this paragraph gave me chills!

    “House Martell of Dorne has loathed the Lannisters ever since Robert’s Rebellion, when Ser Gregor Clegane raped and killed Elia Martell (sister of the current ruling Prince of Dorne) during the Sack of King’s Landing, and Lord Tywin did nothing to punish him. The Lannisters managed to secure the neutrality of Dorne in the current war by offering an exchange: Cersei’s only daughter Princess Myrcella sent off to Dorne as part of her betrothal to Trystane Martell, and in return, the Martells were promised a seat on the Small Council. To the consternation of the Lannisters, a large Dornish embassy arrives in King’s Landing to claim their due – but instead of the elderly Prince Doran Martell, his brash younger brother Oberyn Martell has come to claim the council seat. Oberyn loves the ladies, he loves the boys, but most of all he loved his sister Elia, and he has come to King’s Landing to demand a brother’s vengeance.”

  98. Staunch
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Where’d they get that synopsis on the wiki? There were some things in there about Varys and Oberyn that I’m pretty sure we’re not in the book
    dsfaegal,

  99. Troublesome Birdsong
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    I’ll be really annoyed if Brienne doesn’t end up in jail at some point like she is meant to. We know how much they like to have certain characters cross paths and given Tyrion will be locked up for most of season that is the perfect opportunity for the show to have a brief Tyrion/Brienne meeting that would not have happened otherwise. They have a lot in common after all.

  100. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,
    Staunch,

    I’m pretty sure it’s fan-updated. There’s a guy who posts on these boards who’s involved with it, IIRC.

  101. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I love how every clip on Polliver’s agency website is GoT related. Obviously he has his GoT clips but he also has a clip from Ripper Street with Bronn and one from an Irish movie alongside Roose. Small world.

  102. Rygar
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Y’all had me at Deadwood.

  103. Zack
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    ITA. There was a South Park episode recently that made it seem like dicks are all up in your face when you watch this show, and it was the stupidest thing. To act as though the show doesn’t pander to the straight male viewer in terms of its nudity content is to ignore reality.

  104. Joe Bowers
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if all the Dany haters will start to like her when she succumbs to the Targaryen madness and takes her dragons on a murderous rampage through Westeros.

  105. Giantsbabe
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    I’ve always seen Jon and Dany’s storylines in aDwD as two people grappling with the challenges and politics of leadership. Sure, the pace of the books could have been much quicker, but the subtleties are boundless. In any case a whole chapter of Jon going down to the food stores under CB might become extremely important later on.

    It’s great to hear Polliver’s coming back, because, hopefully we’ll see Arya get needle back in an epic way.

    I believe in the dragons scene we will see the Drogon maybe catching sheep, with the possible death of a human.

  106. Greenjones
    Posted January 8, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I can envision a few different possibilities for Olyvar’s reappearance. Firstly he could just be in just a scene or two to reinforce either Oberyn’s pansexual antics or Loras’s continued gayness or both, as would be their wont. Or they could do something a little more interesting…

    One option would be to have him on the boat and then in the Vale with Littlefinger, as a servant of his. The two seemed to be more cordial with one another than LF is with his female whores so maybe Olyvar is a more loyal servant to him and could fill the roles of his various Vale underlings, maybe even pulling the trigger on poor Dontos.

    Or they could have him a-linger in King’s Landing but still in LF’s employ as his resident spy who could send him info by raven about the things he finds out about. This way LF’s influence would still be felt in King’s Landing despite his absence.

    Who the heck knows though.

  107. Giantsbabe
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    And in response to the link given to the Mereneese plotline, here’s a great discussion on Jon Snow’s character development, just be warned, SPOILERS:

  108. Cary Storm
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Giantsbabe,

    Here, as in…

  109. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Zack:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    ITA. There was a South Park episode recently that made it seem like dicks are all up in your face when you watch this show, and it was the stupidest thing. To act as though the show doesn’t pander to the straight male viewer in terms of its nudity content is to ignore reality.

    I’m pretty sure True Blood has more dick.

    Speaking of dick fixations, where’s Rygar?

  110. Mariya Martell
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Giantsbabe,

    Oh, you’re just teasing us now!

  111. Kyle
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Okay, I have emailed Ian Gelder’s agent regarding his involvement, if any, in Season 4. I will report what I learn from her!

  112. WildSeed
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    Cary Storm,

    it could be that if a link was given, it did not post alongside Giantsbabe’s comment
    It’s happened to me, occasionally .

  113. Watson
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Just a heads up: the Television Critics Association is starting and HBO is first this year. I think there is going to be a GoT panel tomorrow. It’s just for critics but some of will surely livetweet or recap. I would expect a premiere date to come out of it.

  114. Kelly
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’m guessing Oz had the most dick of any HBO show.

  115. WildSeed
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    Jordan: Although it seems in retrospect to have been a poor change, I honestly think that the show didn’t have Loras kill his fellow knights/didn’t have him suspect Brienne in a misguided attempt at making him sympathetic. In terms of the latter, Loras’ logic is pretty much “I know she loved Renly and would never do anything to hurt him”- It shows him in a positive light that while he was sort of “jealous” of her, his love for Renly sort of lead him in the show to empathize and so not suspect her.

    Both you and HB make good valid points about Loras’ depiction on Game of Thrones. What you mentioned, however, reflects on mine own consideration for this, in the early seasons. I was hoping for some clever adaptation that still holds interest in S3…… but……. I got nothing beyond the tent scenes. Sadly disappointed watching him skip along in KL, and fawn over frocks and such. Right now, all I can think of is Doctor Suess Cat in the Hat rhythm ” I will not /cannot see him in a ( white ) cloak, I can not see him wielding a sword to save his own life less likely to hold a siege outside of Dragonstone “. At this point I find him comical and useless, much like portrayed Lancel. At least Lancel has taken an hiatus from the set ( as did ser Kevan ). Should he return and resembling any connection to the pious character he became in the books… then Jaime’s journey towards Riverrun may take on an interesting twist due to Lancel’s confession. I’m not holding out for any of this to be included in the show, really. Jaime’s role is undergoing several modifications to fluff up new perceptions of his role at Kings Landing.

  116. WildSeed
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Kelly,

    implied much, but no.

  117. WildSeed
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    Greenjones: They’ve shown him to be more of a lightweight that is true, but I think this may be them tailoring the character toward Finn Jones strengths or lack thereof. In Season 3 they used him mainly for comic relief, which I take it some people (particularly on a Forum of Ice and Fire) were irritated by.

    Amusing and true, on both counts.

  118. WildSeed
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    I’m very interested in this Gary Oliver portraying the Braavosi captain. He may sail with
    Tycho Nestoris or Arya, for all we know. Secrets abound…….

  119. m3shwerks
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    John,

    I’m in the group who loved ADWD after a second read. I’ll go check that link out.

    Dany’s court is so rich with political intrigue: her new councilors, the mistrust, the double crossing, the anticipation of war, etc. It should be good material for the show. I would like to see if D&D can get Ernest Dickerson to direct some Season 5 episodes (specific to Dany’s plot line). He directed a few episodes of “The Wire”, “Treme”, and “The Walking Dead”.

  120. Cielo Snow
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic:
    Sunny,

    half-a-dozen bastards might disagree with you there.

    Totally agreed. The difference IMHO is that Cersei intentionally plans every murder, while Danny’s victims are the product of carelessness and ignorance.

  121. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    m3shwerks,

    I’m in the group that always loved ADWD. For the life of me, I couldn’t understand why people hated Dany’s arc so much (at first). The main issue with ADWD is the lack of an ending.

  122. Taena
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 3:46 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard
    if Loras is indeed dying after the sack of Dragonstone, why not kill him earlier? How much does he matter in GRRM’s TWoW vision?

    This is the main reason I would rather they didn’t kill off Loras early – it would be an inadvertent TWoW spoiler – it would be obvious that D+D know he dies on Dragonstone and they’re skipping it because it’s not important. Book spoiler right there.

  123. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Rickard Greyjoy:
    Add me to those who consider ‘Deadwood’ to be one of the greatest shows of all time.However, if you were expecting an action packed, shoot em up type western with duels and gun battles in the streets on a daily basis then you were expecting the wrong kind of show. I think it’s strengths more lie in the dialogue, character development and interaction between characters.There is also some great humor packed in there too. Don’t get me wrong, there is some action. Just not a lot. I think where it succeeds where other westerns fail is that it actually gets you to relate to the characters and what pioneer life would really be like back then. Rather than paint the characters as action/super hero types who are invincible hard asses who can’t be killed.

    But I don’t like action packed shows/movies either. Because 99% of the fights done out there are totally unrealistic. I think were Deadwood fails is precisely on the characters, and their development (at least during season 1). Not really interesting.

    As how it would be the life of a pioneer back then, it’s probably pretty accurate (although I guess it would probably be much worse) But I understand it’s merits as a depiction of a frontier society. I like it’s language, too. I just don’t see it groudbreaking at all, or as a good western.

    Good story, great characters…that’s all you need

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Pau Captain Soriano,

    Off-topic, but I love Joe Abercrombie’s books, especially Red Country.Kind of strange to see it offered as a better Western though in that it borrows elements from like every Western out there, especially The Searchers, Unforgiven, and Deadwood itself.

    Yes, I know, it was actually reading Abercrombie’s blog that convinced me to finally watch Deadwood (I hadn’t until know because it was cancelled prematurely). Hence the dissapointment. It’s not strange though, all the authors borrow from previous ones. After watching Deadwood it’s clear what he borrowed from it.

    Maybe the creator of Deadwood should have studied Ford’s, Peckinpack and Eastwood more…I think more than a western he wanted to do a show about a small community of people and the interaction between them, as the AV article says. (The article even mentions he wanted to set the action in Rome) Wich is fine. Maybe if you approach the show as that, instead of as a western…

  124. Pau
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    Aha!! I’m not the only one!!!! I knew it!! (Happy dance)

    http://www.thewesternonline.com/BookReviews/deadwood.html

    Let me just quote the first line:

    “Deadwood has superb writing, excellent characterization, exacting historical research and atmosphere. But it is not a western, and was never intended by its creator, David Milch, to be a western. ”

    He goes on to praise the series highly.

  125. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    Jentario: court is so rich with political intrigue: her new councilors, the mistrust, the double crossing, the anticipation of war, etc. It should be good material for the show. I would like to see if D&D can get Ernest Dickerson to direct some Season 5 episodes (specific to Dany

    People still hate Dany’s ADWD arc. Just go and check pretty much every thread on Westeros. I personally liked the ideas presented in her arc (e.g. gorgeous dragon queen with good intentions fighting black and white villains and… she fails. That was a great idea) but the actual writing was substandard for a GRRM novel.

    Her first and last two chapters were alright, but the problem were those inbetween. This are the chapters generally referred to as ’50 shades of Daario’ . The writing there was really subpar and pretty drawn out. The biggest problem was the way Daario was written.

    The idea of a character like him the bad boy who is no good to her was a good one, but the execution was unbelievably bad. GRRM just overdid himself I mean come on: blue hair, golden teeth, naked ladies sword handles, arrogance and a general douchebag attitude, the fact that he was clearly only interested in her for power, etc. and that tainted Dany’s entire arc. It was especially problematic since his Essos is already problematic and cartoonish I still can’t fathom that the guy who gave us Westeros was able to write something as bad as the Dothraki and the cities of Slaversbay.

    It’s not the only time he made that mistake in ADWD to Penny was another ridiculous character that made Tyrion’s arc drag beyond reason. But GRRM had to force a mirror to Tyrion in front of us and so he overdid it again. I hope D&D cut her out.

    All in all ADWD should have been the best book in the series but it had four problems 1) Lack of an ending as you said (especially because there were so many cheap cliffhangers) 2) Daario 3) Penny 4) Essosi worldbuilding is bad If those four had been fixed than nobody would be talking about how bad it was and I believe the current wave of Dany and Tyrion hatred would be less potent

  126. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    Sorry that you couldn’t see what others see in Deadwood. It’s hard to quantify why a show is acclaimed and popular when you have a “Meh” reaction to it. We all take our own criterion, expectations and personal experiences with us into our watching the series. For those that love it it appears all our needs we’re met. I could argue that Deadwood does have fantastic characterization within the Dickensian/Shakespearean plotting of a camp’s gradual transformation into a community and how corporate greed becomes far more ruthless than any two bit saloon whoremonger. But what’s the point? I don’t want to say you don’t get it, as that’s terribly condescending but the truth is you don’t, and that’s okay :)

  127. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    Since the show already got rid of Marillion they might want to use Olyvar to take the blame for Lysa’s murder. It’s either him or Ser Dontos

  128. cosca
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    or just some random extra…does it really matter who LF frames?

  129. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Well, that’s fucking weird. I did not write your quote…

  130. Steve
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:
    Maybe the creator of Deadwood should have studied Ford’s, Peckinpack and Eastwood more…I think more than a western he wanted to do a show about a small community of people and the interaction between them, as the AV article says. (The article even mentions he wanted to set the action in Rome) Wich is fine. Maybe if you approach the show as that, instead of as a western…

    What exactly makes you an authority on what constitutes a good western, you insufferable idiot? Ford, Peckinpah, Eastwood – such obscure choices. I bet David Milch has never heard of them!

  131. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Jentario:
    Veltigar,

    Well, that’s fucking weird. I did not write your quote…

    ? Huh, that’s bizar. But I see what happened. I replied to you but it posted part of the post to which you were responding. That’s indeed weird.

    cosca:
    Veltigar,

    or just some random extra…does it really matter who LF frames?

    I don’t know, wouldn’t it be more compelling to see LF frame someone we know a little?

  132. Ser Sleez
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    I’m just tired of her saying “I will take what’s mine with fire and blood” every episode she’s in. We heard her the first time.

  133. queenofthorns
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    regarding the goatherder and his daughter:

    There’s a theory that the goatherder with this bag of bones actually was either lying or was mistaken about his daughter being eaten by Drogon, and it’s all part of a Harpy led conspiracy to get Dany to lock up her dragons. Personally I don’t buy it because the way he was acting was too subdued and genuine. In any case, the way that this actor describes the scene as “harrowing”, and the fact that they’ve actually cast a young actress to play the daughter, implies it’s going to be a bit different than in the book. After all in the book, he just has a bag of bones which are recognizably human, don’t relaly need an actress for that. Maybe they actually will show unequivically that Drogon has eaten the child, hence putting this theory to rest, at least in the show-verse?

  134. Ser Habakuk
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    What, if I may ask, is your definition of a Western then? As far as I am aware, the Western is a genre which by and large is defined by its setting. In which case Deadwood certainly would be more of a Western than Justified – of which I’ve only seen two episodes, and which might qualify as a Neo-Western.

    Also, the theme of community building, of the transition from anarchic society to “orderly” society, and of the tension between individualism and community, has been a central theme of Western literature and movies ever since Owen Wister’s “The Virginian”.

    Ford dealt with those topics, and Peckinpah’s movies in particular touch upon very much the same themes as Deadwood does – although, in your defense, this will become much more distinct in later seasons.

    Personally, what I found most unique about Deadwood were the moments of humanity in between violence and cruelty. These would often be short scenes, or even mere cutaways, between minor characters – and to me they made Deadwood a much more interesting, yes, even desirable, place than all the idealized small communities of the classic Western period. All the more criminal the cancelation of the series on a very crucial moment which put into question the very nature of this paradoxical community built by outcasts, outlaws, gamblers, whores, and drunks. Which – apart from the fact that the first few episodes seem to follow somewhat of a different direction than the rest of the series – would be my only major quarrel with Deadwood.

  135. Valaquen
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    queenofthorns:
    regarding the goatherder and his daughter:

    There’s a theory that thegoatherder with this bag of bones actually was either lying or was mistaken about his daughter being eaten by Drogon, and it’s all part of a Harpy led conspiracy to get Dany to lock up her dragons.Personally I don’t buy it because the way he was acting was too subdued and genuine. In any case, the way that this actor describes the scene as “harrowing”, and the fact that they’ve actually cast a young actress to play the daughter, implies it’s going to be a bit different than in the book.After all in the book, he just has a bag of bones which are recognizably human, don’t relaly need an actress for that. Maybe they actually will show unequivically that Drogon has eaten the child, hence putting this theory to rest, at least in the show-verse?

    Sounds to me like we’ll be getting to see the dragon(s) going on a rampage throughout Essos. Dany’s tact of letting her dragons fly around unhindered, like the very last shot of season 3, is going to kick her on the butt. I think most of the complaints, especially those ‘white saviour’ ones, will be addressed in the season to come. Everything will crumble for our Dragon Queen.

  136. queenofthorns
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Valaquen: I think most of the complaints, especially those ‘white saviour’ ones, will be addressed in the season to come. Everything will crumble for our Dragon Queen.

    Yeah, as a Daenerys fan, I’m actually excited at the prospect of her season finally ending on a down note. It will be quite a shock for the viewer, as it was for me as a reader. The reader/viewer is led to believe that Dany’s bond with the dragons is sufficient to control them, then all of a sudden, it isn’t, to the surprise of both us and Dany. I agree that Dany struggling will help with the creepy white savior stuff, but so will filming not being in Morocco.

    What I always find interesting about reader’s perceptions of aDwD is that hindsight appears to be 20-20. People say she was an idiot for raising them the way she did, but I literally never heard anyone complain about that issue prior to aDwD.

  137. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Pau Soriano,

    Sorry that you couldn’t see what others see in Deadwood. It’s hard to quantify why a show is acclaimed and popular when you have a “Meh” reaction to it. We all take our own criterion, expectations and personal experiences with us into our watching the series. For those that love it it appears all our needs we’re met. I could argue that Deadwood does have fantastic characterization withinthe Dickensian/Shakespearean plotting of a camp’s gradual transformation into a community and how corporate greed becomes far more ruthless than any two bit saloon whoremonger. But what’s the point? I don’t want to say you don’t get it, as that’s terribly condescending but the truth is you don’t, and that’s okay :)

    Dickensian maybe, but Shakespearean no way!

    I found some link in the web that also argues my point that Deadwood is not a western and it wasn’t meant to be but somehow when I try to post it my posts don’t appear

    Steve: What exactly makes you an authority on what constitutes a good western, you insufferable idiot? Ford, Peckinpah, Eastwood – such obscure choices.I bet David Milch has never heard of them!

    Lol! Actually Milch himself said he doesn’t believe in genres and that he didn’t wanna do a western so there’s that too ;)

    And at what point an idiot becomes an insufferable one? I’d like to know that! Was after the first post, or maybe after the third? please tell me!

  138. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Steve: What exactly makes you an authority on what constitutes a good western, you insufferable idiot? Ford, Peckinpah, Eastwood – such obscure choices.I bet David Milch has never heard of them!

    You clearly don’t know anything about Westerns otherwise you would not peg Ford, Peckinpah and Eastwood down as obscure choices. If you’re going to start trolling, than please make it less obvious that that’s your intent.

  139. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: ? Huh, that’s bizar. But I see what happened. I replied to you but it posted part of the post to which you were responding. That’s indeed weird.

    Yeah, it seems to be a WordPress bug with complex convos…it happens at least once on each extended thread. I’ve been falsely quoted as well! :) It’s annoying but I try to verify the link before I respond.

    I don’t know, wouldn’t it be more compelling to see LF frame someone we know a little?

    I’d like to see a little continuity from KL with the Moon Door incident as well. Anytime you invest some time in a character, then see him/her wasted, it is more intriguing; plus it would add to the devious character aspects of LF!

  140. Pau
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: You clearly don’t know anything about Westerns otherwise you would not peg Ford, Peckinpah and Eastwood down as obscure choices. If you’re going to start trolling, than please make it less obvious that that’s your intent.

    I think he’s being irònic, implying that of course Milch studied their work. Funny thing is that Milch obviously knew them, but didn’t study their work specifically to do Deadwood, because he didn’t wanna do a western. I found this online:

    When discussing the genesis of Deadwood, David Milch has often declared, “I did want to do a show on the American West, but I didn’t want to do a Western. I’ve never really understood or cared for the conventions of the Western”

    And also:

    “Deadwood has superb writing, excellent characterization, exacting historical research and atmosphere. But it is not a western, and was never intended by its creator, David Milch, to be a western.

    Milch originally approached HBO pitching the story of lawless people struggling to create social stability and civilization out of chaos. He wanted to set the series in ancient Rome, but HBO already had that idea in production. So Milch chose the Old West as his background, setting the story in Deadwood. The setting was incidental to the story arc Milch wanted to tell. Therefore, since the Old West is nothing more than background stage furniture, and plays no integral part to the overall storyline, Deadwood does not, and was never meant from the outset of its creation, to be a western.

    However, despite the method by which it was created, Deadwood is today believed by many viewers and writers of the genre to be a western. So in this light I will consider the series, its impact on our genre, and how it helped shape, and ultimately challenge, the collective consciousness of American culture.”

    PS: I don’t post the links because several of my posts have been lost. Not sure why, maybe an antispam protection?

  141. Pau
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    It’s hard to stablish a discussion when half of my posts don’t appear :)

  142. Peter
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    I totally agree with you.

  143. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:
    Lol! Actually Milch himself said he doesn’t believe in genres and that he didn’t wanna do a western so there’s that too ;)

    And at what point an idiot becomes an insufferable one? I’d like to know that! Was after the first post, or maybe after the third? please tell me!

    Wow, you handled that attack well, ser! Mucho respeto, Pau! Plus, the production of many spaghetti westerns have always been tied to Spain!

  144. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Yeah, it seems to be a WordPress bug with complex convos…it happens at least once on each extended thread. I’ve been falsely quoted as well! :)It’s annoying but I try to verify the link before I respond.

    I’d like to see a little continuity from KL with the Moon Door incident as well. Anytime you invest some time in a character, then see him/her wasted, it is more intriguing; plus it would add to the devious character aspects of LF!

    I’ll certainly check it in the future. And I agree on the continuity as well :)

  145. OldeCrone
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    I’ve never seen “Deadwood” – to be honest I haven’t seen a lot of HBO shows unless they make it on to mainstream TV here in the UK. A few months ago I saw something – sort of a documentary but with live actors and a narrator -about the Earp brothers [of Gunfight at the OK Coral (sp???) fame]. Liam Cunningham (Ser Davos) played Wyatt Earp. His pseudo-American accent sounded alright to me – but I suppose it would need an American citizen to judge really. The point I was going to make was I would not be surprised if that programme had been shot in Spain to get the desert terrain (though I guess North Africa is also a possibility). Don’t let the “trolls” get to you – some people just hate it if you have a different opinion to them. I upset some ladies I know quite unintentionally by saying I was not really a fan of a certain female author who writes historical fiction!!!!

  146. tysnow
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    If the goat herder is in this season, then Battle of Mereen will be the season 5 ep. 9 event.
    Which to me is a good thing, and shows D&D are giving us a condensed AFFC/DwD. But, this means GRRM needs to finish WoW by early next year, so he can start writing DoS.
    I can see some stuff from AFfC/DwD in the first couple of episodes of season 6, but the vast majority of material will be from Winds. I believe I read several years ago that Dream will be the conclusion, with Winds the climax and therefore conclusions are usually shorter than climatic chapters. So don’t be surprised if Dream is the size of GoT. Therefore it may take only one season to adapt.

  147. Ser Habakuk
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: Dickensian maybe, but Shakespearean no way!

    Why not Shakespearean? I thought that was a rather obvious influence. What with all the soliloquies and comic characters such as E.B. Farnum that seem to have jumped right out of a Shakespearean play.

    Also still waiting for a definition of the Western genre that does exlude Deadwood. After all, while there is no need for us to agree on what is “good” or not, “Western” is a definable term. My suggestion for the defining attribute of this particular genre is its setting. What is yours? Genuinely interested in your answer.

  148. Pau
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    OldeCrone:
    Pau Soriano,

    I’ve never seen “Deadwood” – to be honest I haven’t seen a lot of HBO shows unless they make it on to mainstream TV here in the UK.A few months ago I saw something – sort of a documentary but with live actorsand a narrator -about the Earp brothers [of Gunfight at the OK Coral (sp???) fame].Liam Cunningham (Ser Davos) played Wyatt Earp.His pseudo-American accent sounded alright to me – but I suppose it would need an American citizen to judge really.The point I was going to make was I would not be surprised if that programme had been shot in Spain to get the desert terrain (though I guess North Africa is also a possibility).Don’t let the “trolls” get to you – some people just hate it if you have a different opinion to them.I upset some ladies I know quite unintentionally by saying I was not really a fan of a certain female authorwho writes historical fiction!!!!

    Haha well it’s hard to say why some series/books get to you and why not. Just now I’m going over the “Best of 2013″ fantasy books lists and in all of them are books that I loved and authors that I hate. So there’s no guarantee you’ll like a book even if you like similar “authors”, because what you like about those “similar” autors may not be in that particular one, or he may have some particular treat that really annoys you.

    All you can do is make a list of those everybody seem to agree that are good, and try one. And if you like it try another etc. At the end of the day of that list of 20 authors everybody loves you’ll love 10, hate 5 and meh the other 5…

    Another thing I do is try to find a crític that hates the books I hate…it’s much easier to spot what books you’ll like that way. Like reading the 1star reviews on goodreads, much more useful than the 5 star ones ;)

    PS: Regarding that I just finished Blood Song by Anthony Ryan, and King of Thorns by Mark Lawrence, both of wich I can’t recommend enough

  149. Rygar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    tysnow,

    The show will finish before the books do.

  150. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    tysnow: If the goat herder is in this season, then Battle of Mereen will be the season 5 ep. 9 event.

    It’ll be interesting to bring it forward, but it could compromise the events of AFFC around the Iron Islands. One thing’s for certain, no matter how much money HBO can offer D&D, they can’t fit the Battle for the North (Ice) and the Battle of Meereen (Fire) into the same season, even if they were to run in parallel or certainly within days of each other. Maybe Neil Marshall will be called back twice in the space of one season? I would hope they’d have the faith in him to give him more than the big action set pieces, focused purely on one location.

    Developing the new arcs for Davos and Stannis should be enough to keep momentum going though into Season 6, before that we have White Harbour, Yara, the Karstarks and the Umbers to deal with and then there are moments to come up in TWOW that can be interesting too, a fight on a frozen lake, the Bolton and Frey ambushes and more that remains uncertain.

  151. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    OldeCrone:
    Pau Soriano,

    I’ve never seen “Deadwood” – to be honest I haven’t seen a lot of HBO shows unless they make it on to mainstream TV here in the UK.A few months ago I saw something – sort of a documentary but with live actorsand a narrator -about the Earp brothers [of Gunfight at the OK Coral (sp???) fame].Liam Cunningham (Ser Davos) played Wyatt Earp.His pseudo-American accent sounded alright to me – but I suppose it would need an American citizen to judge really.The point I was going to make was I would not be surprised if that programme had been shot in Spain to get the desert terrain (though I guess North Africa is also a possibility).Don’t let the “trolls” get to you – some people just hate it if you have a different opinion to them.I upset some ladies I know quite unintentionally by saying I was not really a fan of a certain female authorwho writes historical fiction!!!!

    Haha well it’s hard to say why some series/books get to you and why not. Just now I’m going over the “Best of 2013″ fantasy books lists and in all of them are books that I loved and authors that I hate. So there’s no guarantee you’ll like a book even if you like similar “authors”, because what you like about those “similar” autors may not be in that particular one, or he may have some particular treat that really annoys you.

    All you can do is make a list of those everybody seem to agree that are good, and try one. And if you like it try another etc. At the end of the day of that list of 20 authors everybody loves you’ll love 10, hate 5 and meh the other 5…

    Another thing I do is try to find a crític that hates the books I hate…it’s much easier to spot what books you’ll like that way. Like reading the 1star reviews on goodreads, much more useful than the 5 star ones ;)

    PS: Regarding that I just finished Blood Song by Anthony Ryan, and King of Thorns by Mark Lawrence, both of wich I can’t recommend enough

    PPS: Regarding being shot in spain as HB said that was quite common in the 60′s and 70′s with the Spaghetti westerns, but since the sets in Almeria have been shut down, so I don’t think it was ;)

  152. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Rygar:
    tysnow,

    The show will finish before the books do.

    Nah…too much money at stake. They’ll finish at the same time in 2018/19.

    And AFFC/ADWD won’t be adapted in just 1 season…1,5-2, most likely

  153. Steve H
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    “Have not read TPATQ yet, and I may actually wait for the full version in the GRRMarillion,
    but I have to say that dead 200 year old Targs aren’t likely to change my opinions on Dany.”

    English? What is TPATQ or GRRMarrillion?

  154. Adam Whitehead
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    I really enjoyed the first season of DEADWOOD but found the second vastly inferior. The first couple of episodes and the last couple of the season were good, but inbetween was a whole, vast load of nothing. Several episodes of Al Swearengen pissing blood and not a lot more.

    Of the HBO shows I’ve seen, it’s one of the weaker ones (which is to say it’s still good). GoT, ROME and my personal favourite, THE WIRE, I all enjoyed a lot more. I still need to watch Season 3 of DEADWOOD, but everyone seems to agree that it’s the weakest one.

  155. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Steve H,

    TP&tQ: The Princess and the Queen. A short 80pg historical account from the perspective of an Oldtown maester regarding the Dance of Dragons, a particularly nasty event about 169 years before Game of Thrones that pitted Targs against Targs and caused a huge war in Westeros. Many, many casualties for the commonfolk, Targ lineages and their dragons. It was released by Mr. Martin (GRRM) in Dec 2013 as part of an anthology, Dangerous Women.

    GRRMarillion: Like Tolkien’s Silmarillion, it is a huge historical work in progress that details every single fact, storyline and anecdote about Westeros and Essos. Mr. Martin is not expected to have it ready until well after the Song of Ice and Fire series is complete. However, there will be an interim “World of Ice and Fire” (TWoI&F) compendium that will detail many of the house lineages and background stories that many love to pontificate and obsess over. TWoI&F is expected to be released in Oct 2014.

    Hopefully that helps.

  156. Cary Storm
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Steve H,

    GRRMarillion is apparently shorthand for George R. R. Martin’s version of Marillion (as opposed to show version). I haven’t figured out what TPATQ stands for but I’m sure it’s an AWOIAF story that probably goes something like “The P_____ and the Q_____” which doesn’t really make sense because “and” should always be “&” in acronyms.

  157. Cary Storm
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Well, I got most of that wrong.

  158. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead:
    I really enjoyed the first season of DEADWOOD but found the second vastly inferior. The first couple of episodes and the last couple of the season were good, but inbetween was a whole, vast load of nothing. Several episodes of Al Swearengen pissing blood and not a lot more.

    Of the HBO shows I’ve seen, it’s one of the weaker ones (which is to say it’s still good). GoT, ROME and my personal favourite, THE WIRE, I all enjoyed a lot more. I still need to watch Season 3 of DEADWOOD, but everyone seems to agree that it’s the weakest one.

    I would also throw The Sopranos in there.

  159. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Cary Storm,

    We’ll forgive you. By the way, your graphical illustrations and GIF work over at wicgeeks.com is simply phenomenal. You have a gift, ser. Wish WiC allowed for some emotes here!

  160. Skyofwelkup
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad to see that Andy Kellegher is reprising his role. Arya getting Needle back in the show may still be eventful even with the loss of “Is there gold in the village?” On the subject, I’m glad that Carter and Teale are reprising their roles. I always get a little nervous that actors won’t be available when the plot needs them again resulting in subpar deviations. I’m crossing my fingers that Roger Allam will reprise his role in season 5.

  161. House Mormont
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    The other problems with aDwD are that Davos and Bran are only in the first half… and I agree about the lack of ending it really hurts the book

    Also what gave you the impression that Daario only wanted her for her power? When he came back from his mission to the lamb people she was at the massive low where all was hopeless before she married Hizdahr and signed for peace. If he was in it for power he would have left when Ben Plumm left, when it was clear that she was doomed. And he still fucks her when she’s married Hizdahr and the opportunity for him to be her king is gone, although I doubt he ever thought that’d happen

    I agree on Penny… and just Tyrion is general in aDwD drags

  162. House Mormont
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Also, since I woke up at 4am this morning and I was confused why people thought Jon’s aDwD material was slow, I constructed a lil season in my head for him
    5×01 Adjusting to Lord Commander and not being able to be friendly to his friends, brushing off Melisandre’s advances, trying to satisfy Stannis and giving him the Nightfort
    5×02 Stannis lets the wildings through the Wall, Rattleshirt is burned (with extra Melisandre perspective)
    5×03 Telling Stannis to raise the mountain clans, “kill the boy”, baby swap and Sam leaves
    5×04 Meet Selyse & Shireen, Jon&Mel II: Ghost & Warging, Meeting with Thorne (as a replacement of the Old Pommegranate?) where he complains
    5×05 Finding Wun Wun, “Edd, fetch me a block”
    5×06 Announces Hardhome to Thorne, Selyse’s men want Val, sends Val to get Tormund, Jon&Melisandre III: Mance mission
    5×07 Meets Tormund, Lets his wildings through the wall, Jon&Melisandre IV: Prophecy
    5×08 “dead things in the water”, deal with Tormund to save Hardhome, Selyse does not approve and Val freaks out about Shireen
    5×09 – nothing
    5×10 “look to the skies”, Pink Letter, Wun Wun is attacked, Stab stab

    it sounds like it’d be pretty amazing to me, I’d love a season with The Wall, Meereen and KL as the backbone

  163. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    I liked Deadwood. I wouldn’t say I loved it. My favorite aspect of the show was the humor. I found myself enjoying Richardson,EB Farnum, and Steve the Drunk much more than 2 of the 3 top billed characters(Bullock and Mrs. Garrett). I did not like Timothy Olyphant at all in this show. As far as HBO shows go, I personally enjoyed The Sopranos,The Wire,Game Of Thrones,Rome, and Carnivale more.

  164. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    I liked season 3 the best.

  165. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    allthat stuff would be good but ADOD wont be in one season only. They going to start going into this season and all next season and probably season 6 partially

  166. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    That’s a nice way to cut the crap bits. As I said, I don’t have a problem with the arc as a whole, just with a few unbelievably boring chapters in the middle, which will obviously get cut in the show.

    I will offer my alternative to your season, though (and this lasts two seasons, for the 1.5 ADWD/AFFC season model):

    Season 5:
    1- The burning of Mance + the NW needs a LC
    2- Stannis, Jon and Mel scenes + Jon is elected
    3- Jon becomes the LC, and changes a lot very quickly, “kill the boy”, Jon decides to send away Gilly and Sam with Aemon (I wonder what’ll happen if Mance doesn’t get a baby)
    4- Sam and Gilly leave, Jon gets into some buisness with Thorne and Slynt and Mance=Rattleshirt is revealed
    5- Jon gives Slynt an ultimatum and asks Edd for a block
    6- Jon gives Stannis good advice, Hardhome gets set up, through Bran or Melisandre or whatever
    7- Jon decides to go to Melisandre to save Tormund and his Wildlings
    8- no Wall
    9- the battle of Hardhome, expanded and in Jon POV. This is necessary because the Others will have absolutely no presence in these next couple of seasons, and because we were robbed of a true White Walker battle scene in season 3. It would also spice up a pretty actionless season. This episode won’t be just in Hardhome, though (we will still have Cersei’s downfall, Brienne at the inn and a few more big scenes)
    10- Jon marching back to the Wall with Tormund after losing tons of people to the Others, Melisandre seeing the vision of Jon’s stabbing in the fires (but very vague, implying it is Stannis maybe)

    Season 6:
    1- Jon and Tormund make final negotiations, the Wildlings cross the Wall
    2- establishing scenes between the Wildlings and the NW, Shireen and Selyse arriving (but that could fit in season 5 if necessary)
    3- Melisandre tells Jon about Arya, he sends Mance after her
    4- Jon checks winter supplies and gives food to hungry Wildlings against Bowen’s suggestions (a very short 2 minute scene) as well as Melisandre telling him of the stabbing
    5- no Wall
    6- Wun Wun, maybe? If not I think it will be a good place to stuff a scene where Wildlings and NW get into a fight and Jon breaks it up
    7- Alys Karstark, all in one episode
    8- Jon plans a massive attack on Hardhome to deal with the Others before they reach Eastwarch (as Melisandre predicts)
    9- the battle of Meereen, no Wall
    10- the Pink a Letter, the stabbing

    Jon would be the only character whose story lasts throughout two seasons. Most other storylines will cap at a season to a season and a half (the storylines in Meereen and Winterfell will last 7-8 episodes, though). That’s my ideal season 5 & 6.

  167. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    I hope you’re right. Rushing books 4 & 5 into one season will be messy and will require a lot more cuts than I would like (possibly cutting whole story arcs). I would prefer a season and a half of ADWD+AFFC.

  168. cubicz
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: It’s not the only time he made that mistake in ADWD to Penny was another ridiculous character that made Tyrion’s arc drag beyond reason. But GRRM had to force a mirror to Tyrion in front of us and so he overdid it again. I hope D&D cut her out.

    Not bloody likely to get cut considering theres strong evidence that she’s his daughter from Tysha… http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/13977627833/the-dwarfs-penny

  169. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    I hated the sudden disappearance of Bran and Davos! They were probably the best parts of the book until that point :(

  170. loco73
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Here is a not so new interview with the cast of GoT and GRRM as well as D&D just to pass the winter blues. You might have already seen this but what the hell! There are some questions about the action and character arches in Season Four. There is nothing new revealed but the interview is kind of spoilerish…. SO PROCEED WITH CARE!!!!!

    SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=g-high-rec&v=Gs6mGrsYZxI

  171. Turncloak
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    cubicz: Not bloody likely to get cut considering theres strong evidence that she’s his daughter from Tysha… http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/13977627833/the-dwarfs-penny

    That’s a piss poor theory of I’ve ever scene one. Wouldn’t call it evidence. I too am in favor of cutting Penny.

  172. Turncloak
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    The show will definitely finish before the books. GRRM has written the last two books at a snails pace. If TWOW doesn’t come out this year or early next year than GRRM has missed his window to keep the show from catching up. Hell we have already reached Dance material in season 4!

  173. House Mormont
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfiyre,

    I hope it won’t be in 1 season, but with what they said about the “golden goose” and the way they’re treating Bran/Brienne/Sansa’s material in a “make it and fast paced as it can be, we might get axed later” kind of way, makes me think they might rush it

  174. House Mormont
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    i’d still like it over 2 seasons just because I find Jon and Mel interactions are great, I also wish there was more Aemon Targaryen and Stannis/Mel interaction, that was amazing. I really hope the Karstarks are cut though

  175. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    loco73,

    loco73,

    That was amazing, thanks! Can’t believe I haven’t seen it yet…

  176. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    cubicz: Not bloody likely to get cut considering theres strong evidence that she’s his daughter from Tysha… http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/13977627833/the-dwarfs-penny

    That’s one of the worst theories that I have ever seen I’ll rank it up there with Jojenpaste, A+J = Tyrion and Euron is the dusky woman

  177. Zack
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    Same. Hopefully season 6 has a substantial amount (40-60% or so) of book 6 in it. I’m hoping the show is wrapped in eight seasons total.

  178. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    Veltigar,

    The other problems with aDwD are that Davos and Bran are only in the first half… and I agree about the lack of ending it really hurts the book

    Don’t forget the fact that there is no Sansa, Samwell and Brienne chapters. It’s a flaw of course, but I tend to rank it lower because you can only get that many pages in a book. It’s also worth pointing out that none of the characters you and I mentioned here had a cheap cliffhanger to end their arc. Jon and Dany’s arc ended with such cheap cliffhangers that it was really annoying.

    House Mormont:
    Veltigar,
    Also what gave you the impression that Daario only wanted her for her power? When he came back from his mission to the lamb people she was at the massive low where all was hopeless before she married Hizdahr and signed for peace. If he was in it for power he would have left when Ben Plumm left, when it was clear that she was doomed. And he still fucks her when she’s married Hizdahr and the opportunity for him to be her king is gone, although I doubt he ever thought that’d happen

    Well, all seemed hopeless to her but it really wasn’t. If she had really set out to do it than she could have crushed the sons and the Yunkish. But that would have cost her a large chunk of her strength and she would have had to release her dragons. In the end she wasn’t ruthless enough and therefore she was stupid enough to marry Hizzie.

    Funnily enough her inability to take decisive action will probably work in her advantage in tWoW. Because by not taking action she was able to preserve her strength while the Yunkai’i basically defeated themselves. She’ll also gain the allegiance of Ironborn, Volantinians and probably a Dothraki khalesar.

    That was a little detour. But Daario, scumbag Steve he might be, did see that. That’s why he proposed to Dany to organize her own version of the RW after he heared of her plan to marry Hizzie.

    He stayed around instead of baling like BBP because if he had succeeded in convincing Dany he would have become the unofficial King of Meereen. And Dany was basically eating out of his hand up untill that point. In the long run that would have made him one of the most powerful men in the world.

    But she turned him down. And that imo was the real turning point. I believe that Daario is Dany’s betrayal for gold. The big clue for that is the fact that he wasn’t executed at the end of ADWD. They executed Groleo instead of him, which is odd because they wanted to retaliate for the death of their supreme commander and Daario was by far the most important prisoner they had. I think he made a deal with the Yunkishmen, and that Tyrion is going to unmask him.

  179. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    I agree 100%

  180. cubicz
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Jojenpaste is pretty transparent to me. Almost all magic is blood powered in ASOIAF. If Jojen’snot dead, Bran is at least drinking his blood – “your blood makes you a greenseer”

  181. KG
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    My whole problem with ADWD is that it needed tighter editing. It could have lost 400 pages and no one would have noticed.

  182. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Maybe not that many. Just take out any moments where a character empties their bowels, put fewer courses on the tables, remove any mentions of “Nipples on a breastplate” and “Words are wind”, and a few other niggles, then you’ll get a good 20 pages out, along with a more palatable read.

    Bring the number of Jon & Tyrion chapters down to 9 or 10 a piece, give Dany 6 or 7, plus cut that first Davos chapter maybe (‘much as I love him and his chapters) and you’ll have another 100 out at least.

    Edit: AFFC could also lose a few Brienne’s and Cersei’s, Arys Oakheart and one Iron Islands POV.

  183. Ed
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    I know, right?

    Sigh… Okay, we get it HBO, move along.

    KG:
    Ours is the Fury,

    I thought the Pod scene was ludicrously overdone. It was like the Scary Movie folks decided to do a Game of Thrones segment.

  184. queenofthorns
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: Funnily enough her inability to take decisive action will probably work in her advantage in tWoW. Because by not taking action she was able to preserve her strength while the Yunkai’i basically defeated themselves.

    Hmm I think you’re being uncharitable. The way I read it, this was her intention to begin with. She closed the gates in the full knowledge that it would weaken the Yunkai’i (mostly by virtue of the plague they carried) while keeping her own strength. It’s not really “funnily enough” – when it was a conscious decision to let them all rot outside the gates.

    Veltigar: And Dany was basically eating out of his hand up untill that point. In the long run that would have made him one of the most powerful men in the world.

    I’m not sure what you mean by eating out of his hand. She never did anything on Daario’s suggestion as pointed out by others. It seems to me Daario was perfectly happy in his role as paramour, though understandably he would have preferred she not marry someone else (and showed it publickly by that kiss in court) wouldn’t any man?

    Veltigar: I believe that Daario is Dany’s betrayal for gold.

    I must admit that I used to loathe Daario and think he was gross and untrustworthy, because that’s what Dany herself thinks all throughout ADWD, because he looks like a clown, and because he’s a dick to people other than Dany. But what I think GRRM is trying to do here is make us mistrust Daario, but then have him be trustworthy all along.

    I think the text bears this out – when you look at the objective facts he has done nothing other than serve (and service) her loyally! One of my favorite theories is that Dany is the one to betray Daario, to his death. Would be interesting, no?

  185. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns: ….But what I think GRRM is trying to do here is make us mistrust Daario, but then have him be trustworthy all along.

    I think the text bears this out – when you look at the objective facts he has done nothing other than serve (and service) her loyally!One of my favorite theories is that Dany is the one to betray Daario, to his death.Would be interesting, no?

    I find your Dany-Daario thoughts quite interesting….but do you think Daario will even matter once Dany comes flying back to the chaos in Meereen with Jhaqo’s khalasar in tow and Victarion offering her the world?

  186. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Jentario,

    My whole problem with ADWD is that it needed tighter editing. It could have lost 400 pages and no one would have noticed.

    I mostly loved the book, but the intricacies of Volentene politics? Snooze.

  187. Jon Blackfiyre
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Rygar,

    The show will definitely finish before the books. GRRM has written the last two books at a snails pace. If TWOW doesn’t come out this year or early next year than GRRM has missed his window to keep the show from catching up. Hell we have already reached Dance material in season 4!

    Im still not so sure. He has said many times that AFFC\ADWD took along time because he split it in to and got stuck on plotlines and how to get characters to places they needed to be. Plus he was working on other things as well during the process. The bulk of AGOT took 2 years then 2 more years for ACOK and only 1 year later for ASOS and that with the Hedge knight being written inbetween. Most people believe that TWOW and ADOS will be more along the pacing lines of ACOK\ASOS with plots moving along faster. Less world building more plot building. So if he gets into it like he did with the first three I can see him done in 3-4 years. However I think hell need an 8th novel to finish it up. And it depends on how much he works on his other projects during this time period. Hes got a lot on his plate but he should have plenty of motivation to finish his story.

  188. Rygar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Adam Whitehead,

    Yeah, OK.

    Shakes head. Rattles fist.

  189. Rygar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    HBO is putting out a season a year. 7-8 seasons total I would think they would need to complete their story (based on the material covered already) and we are already halfway there with S4 almost upon us. You think George RR Martin is going to finish two books within 3-4 years?

    Unless HBO ceases to put out a season every March/April or they decide to stall by dedicating a season to mindless whore searching . then I have to put my money on HBO winning the race.

  190. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Maybe the trick is to order the pizza for him? He takes too long deciding on the toppings.

  191. Steve H
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard. Thanks!

  192. Rygar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    For the record it is only two episodes where Al pisses blood, and a lot of other shit is going on. S2 of DW is the “Empire Strikes Back” season.

  193. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I a actually think it’s possible to get it done in 4 years. He just needs to put his head into it. It took him less than 3 years to write ASOS, so surely it can’t take him 6/7 years to finish the last couple of books. Also, D&D can decide to delay the last season to give him more time to finish ADOS (if he is anywhere near finished) by doing a Breaking Bad/Supranoa season split for the last season and delaying the final half-season till winter or something. It would also mean we’d get a proper, extended final season for GOT, which is obviously good.

    In the end, it really depends on GRRM. I think it’s unfair to compare ADWD and AFFC to TWOW in terms of how long it will take since GRRM did not have the show biting at his ass at the time. However much we wish for the books to finish first, GRRM wishes it tenfold since it’s his baby after all. With some serious will power (which I’m sure GRRM has), it’s hard to think the task is impossible.

    If we won’t hear anything by the end of the year, I’ll begin feeling worried but I’ll stay optimistic for now.

  194. Watson
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Premiere: April 6 at 9 p.m. First trailer for GOT season four airs Sunday.

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/

  195. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns: Hmm I think you’re being uncharitable.The way I read it, this was her intention to begin with.She closed the gates in the full knowledge that it would weaken the Yunkai’i (mostly by virtue of the plague they carried) while keeping her own strength.It’s not really “funnily enough” – when it was a conscious decision to let them all rot outside the gates.

    Sadly, I think you are mistaken. She closed the gates in fear of the disease, that much is true. But throughout ADWD she has a very grim outlook on the conflict with the Yunkai’i. She doesn’t think that she can beat them, that’s why she goes for peace and accepts Hizdahr’s proposal for marriage.

    If closing the gates was a conscious, long-term decision to weaken the Yunkai’i by not meeting them on the field of battle right away, then she would not have gone for peace with the Sons and the Yunkishmen. If that were the case, she would have concentrated her efforts in destroying the sons, while preparing her troops to attack the weakened enemy in front of her gates. She did neither of those things.

    They (the Sons and the Yunkai’i) sensed her insecurity and simply overbluffed her. if she had called it, it would have been bloody but she would have won. But there is hope, her last chapter in ADWD tells me that she’s ready to leave those insecurities and fears on the sea of Dothrak and become the leader she is bound to be.

    I’m not sure what you mean by eating out of his hand.She never did anything on Daario’s suggestion as pointed out by others.It seems to me Daario was perfectly happy in his role as paramour, though understandably he would have preferred she not marry someone else (and showed it publickly by that kiss in court) wouldn’t any man?

    The simple fact that she allowed him into her bed should tell you more then enough about his influence over her. The way he acts towards her, without being punished for it is another clue. Of course she fights it, Dany knows he’s no good. But she can’t stay away from him. That is until she thinks that she can save her people by marrying Hizdahr. Up until that moment everything was going swell for Daario and if he hadn’t proposed to organize a Meereenese RW, she would not have broken away completely (leaving a chance to regain his influence over her)

    I must admit that I used to loathe Daario and think he was gross and untrustworthy, because that’s what Dany herself thinks all throughout ADWD, because he looks like a clown, and because he’s a dick to people other than Dany.But what I think GRRM is trying to do here is make us mistrust Daario, but then have him be trustworthy all along.

    He is gross and untrustworthy. After all he killed his fellow captains after only once talking to Dany. He’s also a dick towards Dany herself btw, he pretty much objectifies her. That’s all part of his stereotypical bad boy attitude which she seems to dig in ADWD. She thinks he’s untrustworthy (although the majority of those thoughts spring up after he proposes to throw the Meereenese RW) that’s right, but there is a difference between that and outright betraying her. Which I don’t think he did up until the moment he spurned her (although he probably stole some of the jewls for the Lamb people. After all he is a sellsword)

    The best way to understand Daario’s character is to compare him to BBP. Think about the mercenaries motto ‘There are bold sellswords and there are old sellswords. But no sellswords that are old and bold’.

    BBP is the old sellsword, who is unwilling to take any risks and weasels out when the going gets tough. Daario on the other hand is a bold sellsword. He was the one who took the initiative to betray his fellow-captains and go over to Dany (very bold), in stark contrast with BBP.

    He reminds me a bit of LF (and not just in his attraction to way to young girls) in the fact that he’s a gambler. He came over to Daenerys and gambled that he could rise to unseen prominence in her ranks. And for a time everything went smoothly, until he found out that he couldn’t corrupt her. She would not marry him and she would not have him organize the Meereenese RW. He was pissed of for a reason because Dany sacrifizing herself for her people was not what he had planned. So, naturally he hatched another bold move and that was to go over to the Meereenese.

    In the end that will blow up in his face. There are no bold, old sellswords. But you have to hand it to him, for a while his plan was doing well. It was messed up by things like the Ironborn landing, Drogon returning (and killing the Yunkish general), Quentyn releasing the dragons and Barristan finding his nerve all things he could not have planned for.


    I think the text bears this out – when you look at the objective facts he has done nothing other than serve (and service) her loyally! One of my favorite theories is that Dany is the one to betray Daario, to his death. Would be interesting, no?

      

    We haven’t actually seen him do much. He went over to her side and served her loyally for a good time yes. But that was when she was winning on all fronts. Even BBP served her loyally when things were going great (he was even more valuable than Daario douche since he gave them the idea of using the sewers to take Meereen).

    She then sent him out there on a mission to the Lhazareen. He returns and says they accepted her friendship and the gifts she send them. But do we actually have proof of that? There was no lamb ambassador with him, no signed document, the Lhazareen didn’t send food or soldiers or whatever. For all we know, Daario took his men on a camping trip away from battle, pocketed the goods and returned to the city.

    After that he pretty much does nothing (except reporting that BBP has gone over and bringing in the Windblown who pretend to be defecting). After that he becomes a hostage. In itself that should already ring the alarmbells. Because it appears to be a moronic decision on all sides. Dany is stupid for sending a man who once betrayed his fellow captains as a hostage, the Yunkai’i are stupid for accepting a sellsword since outside of the GC sellswords don’t have any problems with fucking each other over and Daario himself is an idiot for trusting his men.

    The only people who have an excuse are the Yunkishmen, since they are probably aware of the Queen’s affection for Daario. But if they are aware of Dany’s feeling than why don’t they kill him after the death of their general? They want revenge on the bitch queen. What would be better than to kill her lover? Especially since that lover is also the most important prisoner from a military PoV. Groleo is an admiral without ships and the Unsullied captain is not the leader of his part of Dany’s armed forces, nor would the death of the Unsullied captain make his units change their mind about their loyalty to Dany.

    And still they did not kill him even though he was the prime target from every PoV. That’s fishy and smells of treason me thinks.

    As to Dany betraying Daario to his death. I support every theory that has Daario killed. However, from a dramatic PoV it isn’t as good as Daario turning out to be a turncloak. That would help Dany harden her resolve, it would be an interesting sideplot for someone like Tyrion to discover the truth, a betrayal by Daario would also be a good way to usher an emotionally devastating death in. For example when Daario get’s unmasked he takes Missandei hostage and kills her when he sees there is no escape possible. Or he tries to cut his way out and kills Ser Jorah or Grey Worm or… (a duel between Daario and Vic/Barry/Jorah/Grey Worm/ Strong Belwas/etc. would also be really cool)

  196. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Watson,

    Where does this come from? Please give us the sauce (=source).

    EDIT: thanks, sweet!

  197. Veltigar
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Watson:
    Premiere: April 6 at 9 p.m. First trailer for GOT season four airs Sunday.

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/01/09/game-of-thrones-season-4-date/

    PRAISE THE LORD :D

  198. Watson
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    Added.

    Link says part of the trailer will be released before Sunday.

  199. mariamb
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: PRAISE THE LORD :D

    I will second that!

  200. oierem
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    If he needs 8 books to finish the story the TV series will catch him for sure -the TV series is not going to be longer becase there are more books to adapt. The story will be told in 8 seasons, that’s the plan.

    It’s very unlikely that the 7th book will be released before spring 2018 (let’s face the dates clearly). It’s not true that AFFC and ADWD were exceptions that required more time to write: they took 5 and 6 years. Winds has already taken 3 and is nowhere in sight, it’ll be closer to the 5/6 years of AFFC/ADWD than the 2 years between the first three books.

    And finally, if publishing the 7th book by 2018 is unlikely, it’s literally impossible to finish it before the fall of 2016 – and that’s the moment when the final season will be scripted. That means that the show WILL overpass the books, even if we get the book before the series is aired.

  201. Jentario
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    oierem,

    TWOW has only been written for two and a half years. For all we know, GRRM might come out and surprise us by releasing the book next fall/winter. There is evidence that he is further along than he suggests to the fans, too: in an interview with the guy that voices the audio books, he says that GRRM has told him he “has another one almost ready” (paraphrasing a bit, but something like that). If TWOW comes out in late 2014, that leaves GRRM three and a half years before the show enters ADOS material- and we have to keep in mind that GRRM always comes into a new book with delayed material from the last book (as much as 200 pages for TWOW) which means it should take a shorter time to write.

    So in a sense, unless he runs into another Meereenese Knot or stumbles around undoing a 5 year gap, there’s no reason to entirely abandon hope.

  202. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    I’d like to be optimistic, but I think a 2014 release date is wishful thinking.
    GRRM has said pretty openly on his Not a Blog that he took on way too many side projects after he finished Dance, so I don’t think he’s wriiten as much of TWOW as we hope. I’ve seen the Dotrice interview, but “another book almost done” could mean anything.
    But I think now TWOW the only thing on his table. The Princess and the Queen and (I think so) his work for the World of Ice and Fire are done. He’s delayed Dunk & Egg 4, he’s finished all the anthologies and whatnot. Looking at his website he doesn’t have any appearences listed until the end of May. So now is the time when he could get up to speed. Fingers crossed.

  203. BlackBloc
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    There are people who think Jojenpaste is a far-fetched, unlikely theory? Oh my dear, sweet summer child…

  204. Iron Bank of Wit
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    I wonder ifOlyver will become Satin up at the wall? I wondered that when they first introduced him in season 3.

  205. Greenjones
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Kyle,

    Did you heard back BTW?

  206. queenofthorns
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: If closing the gates was a conscious, long-term decision to weaken the Yunkai’i by not meeting them on the field of battle right away, then she would not have gone for peace with the Sons and the Yunkishmen.

    She had two wars going on. One was the army outside her gates. The other was the civil war inside. Her goal was to stop both wars. She addressed them each separately. She made peace with the war inside through the bargain with Hizdar. Meanwhile, she used the plague to weaken the army outside in order to be in a better position to negotiate peace with them, which she also ultimately succeeded at.

    Veltigar: The simple fact that she allowed him into her bed should tell you more then enough about his influence over her.

    What’s that supposed to mean? Why does Dany choosing to sleep with a guy she’s attracted to means that he must be controlling her, necessarily? That’s just weird gender role nonsense (the woman “gives in” the woman doesn’t “choose”). Dany was the one with the power in that situation.

    Also what way he acts towards her do you find objectionable? He sees that they are both attracted to each other, and he comes on to her. She never tells him to stop and indeed flirts back. What should he be punished for? (other than maybe a spanking…) ;)

    Veltigar: He’s also a dick towards Dany herself btw, he pretty much objectifies her.

    I like being objectified by my lovers and by those who I might want to take as lovers – who doesn’t? It’s fun to know you have that kind of sexual power others, as long as everything is consensual, which it is here. In fact it could be argued that objectification is nothing more than a component of attraction. It’s only bad when it’s nonconsensual.

    Overall you just really seem to hate the guy and are trying to create a conspiracy theory that will prove he’s the bad guy you believe he must be. But there is precisely no proof whatsoever to your theory. Daario might already be dead (we actually don’t know the fate of any of the hostages), or he might be kept alive as a bargaining chip. The Yunkaii might keep him alive specifically because they know he’s Dany’s favorite pet and could be used as leverage.

  207. queenofthorns
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Daario will even matter once Dany comes flying back to the chaos in Meereen with Jhaqo’s khalasar in tow and Victarion offering her the world?

    Hm I suppose not when you put it that way. But, I’m not sure what the order of events will be. But anyway I think it would be interesting due to the dramatic potential. I’m also a fan of Barristan betraying Dany for love… Oh man that would hurt. Apparently I like my favorite characters to suffer.

  208. Jen@House Stark
    Posted January 9, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Cary Storm,

    We’ll forgive you. By the way, your graphical illustrations and GIF work over at wicgeeks.com is simply phenomenal. You have a gift, ser. Wish WiC allowed for some emotes here!

    Lord Storm is the Lord is the Smilies, it is known :biggrin:

  209. Kael of the Lake
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    I think he’s already finished book 6 but we’re not worthy enough to acquire it before the 5th season of the show (when it has covered every book information that’s out there).
    GRRM is a known prankster and that’s why I believe he’s waiting for every possible theory to be told so he can come up with something unexpected/original and rub it in our faces. Oh, it’ll be amazing.

  210. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I find your Dany-Daario thoughts quite interesting….but do you think Daario will even matter once Dany comes flying back to the chaos in Meereen with Jhaqo’s khalasar in tow and Victarion offering her the world?

    I trusted and really liked Daario from the start. I think he will have something to say before the end. I hope Queenofthorns theory is not true but now that I read it seems almost a given :S

  211. Veltigar
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    queenofthorns: She had two wars going on.One was the army outside her gates.The other was the civil war inside.Her goal was to stop both wars.She addressed them each separately.She made peace with the war inside through the bargain with Hizdar.Meanwhile, she used the plague to weaken the army outside in order to be in a better position to negotiate peace with them, which she also ultimately succeeded at.

    There is no evidence what so ever that she thought the plague would make her foes meak and ready for peace. The whole point about her arcs in ADWD is that they overbluffed her. She was alone and scared, thinking that she was way in over her head and she made decisions motivated by fear. And all her decisions ended up enabling her enemies to take up dominant positions. Or do you think it’s a coincidence that they tried to poison her after they had installed one of their own as her husband and heir with a sizeable chunk of the enemy army inside the wall. That smells like a classic coup attempt. Dany dies, Hizdahr takes control and invites the Yunkishmen inside the wall to help restore order and bring her killers to justice. That’s a classic move and happened countless times in history.

    All in all I find it really annoying that you try to make Dany the typical stereotype saviour-princess. It does a disservice to her character. It’s as bad as the Dany-haters on Westeros who pretend that she’s an insane female version of Aerys II.

    queenofthorns:
    What’s that supposed to mean?Why does Dany choosing to sleep with a guy she’s attracted to means that he must be controlling her, necessarily?That’s just weird gender role nonsense (the woman “gives in” the woman doesn’t “choose”).Dany was the one with the power in that situation.

    Oh, sure try to make the poster you’ are arguing against look like a mysogenic. A real cheap debating trick. All your retoric bullshit tricks don’t change the fact that she should not have slept with him as openly as she did. He was an unreliable sellsword (and not even a particularly powerful one) who had nothing to offer her. And who’s indiscretions embarresed her and lowered her standing. Even King Bobby B, vile pig he might have been, understood that you keep your whores locked away in a brothel and don’t flaunt them at court.

    queenofthorns: being objectified by my lovers and by those who I might want to take as lovers – who doesn’t? It’s fun to know you have that kind of sexual power others, as long as everything is consensual, which it is here. In fact it could be argued that objectification is nothing more than a component of attraction. It’s only bad when it’s nonconsensual.

    Overall you just really seem to hate the guy and are trying to create a conspiracy theory that will prove he’syou believe he must be. But there is precisely no proof whatsoever to your theory. Daario might already be dead (we actually don’t know the fate of any of the hostages), or he might be kept alive as a bargaining chip. The Yunkaii might keep him alive specifically because they know he’s Dany’s favorite pet and could be used as leverage.

    What, I can’t even… I’m not an object, my lovers are not an object. And I violently oppose being treated as such by anyone. I’m a person. Objectification is always bad since it lowers the bar. An object does not have to be treated with the same kind of care, responsibility and respect as a person. I’ll not argue with you about your personal life, but know that the majority of persons likes being treated as persons. Because you know that has been like the driving struggle in human history so far (fight against slavery and servedom, democracy, etc.)

    And please stop with the condescending tone. I don’t hate the guy, since he’s a fictional character. He’s just a badly constructed mess. As to the mather of proof, there is absolutely no proof to my theory correct, but there is also 0% proof for your theory. What there are is clues and up until the point where he becomes a hostage they can be interpreted both ways (although the Lhazareen campaign alone should send of a giant red flag). The fact that he isn’t killed immediatly after the death of the Yunkish general on the other hand should set all the alarmbells off. It makes no sense that they would not execute him right away. They don’t want to use him as a bargaining chip, since they think Dany’s is dead. And even if she wasn’t the Yunkish have made it quite clear they want her dead. They will not sue for peace.

    Also, take into consideration that there are only two books left. Dany’s betrayal for gold needs to come swiftly, because her betrayal for love needs to be set up. The only character that makes sense from a dramatic PoV is Daario.

    All in all I’d say you are misinterpreting Dany’s arc, refusing to acknowledge her times of uncertainty and fear, and therefore throwing valuable character development out of the window. And in the case of Daario you are suffering from a huge case of Draco-with-leatherpants (and that’s just about his position in the story, you are also unwilling to admit that Daario’s appearance is one giant fail when it comes to worldbuilding)

  212. Turncloak
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Gauntlet thrown! Good job. For some reason there seem to be two extremes, Dany worshipers and Dany haters. I can’t believe that the Dany worshipers a can’t see the many bad decisions that Dany has made. That is the point of her arc! Governing is not easy! Sleeping with a sellsword is stupid!(Bronn himself would tell u that) Dany is a political rookie at this point. The Dany haters who think Dany is the second coming of the mad king are also not seeing the whole picture. For one, Cersei is the front runner in that category :).

  213. Veltigar
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Turncloak: c! Governing is not easy! Sleeping with a sellsword is stupid!(Bronn himself would tell u that) Dany is a political rookie at this point. The Dany haters who think Dany is the second coming of the mad king are also not seeing the whole picture. For one, Cersei is the front runner in that category :).

    In spirit Cersei is indeed much closer to Aerys II (although, I’m confident she’s Tywin’s daughter ;-) ). I do feel that Dany will live up to her potential in tWoW. At the end of ADWD she finally seemed ready to face her troubled past and get shit going. I believe that tWoW will bring us a Dany who finally understands that you can’t have an omelet without breaking eggs and that self-sacrifice does not always equate to the best solution. All in all, I think she’ll be kicking some ass =D

    I’m glad that there are others who share my vision and see reason. It’s strange how many people on both sides have such a seriously skewed perception of a great character.

  214. queenofthorns
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: you are also unwilling to admit that Daario’s appearance is one giant fail when it comes to worldbuilding)

    Not really, I actually brought this up above – I used to think he was a total douche because of how he was described. I think either GRRM dropped the ball on his description (bad worldbuilding), or made him look like a clown purposefully to make us mistrust him. I’m actually torn which one is true.

    We seem to have different definitions of “objectify” and that’s causing some confusion. In my view, it’s totally possible to objectify someone and yet also treat them as a human being. Objectify means “see as something which is sexually arousing”. You can see your lover as sexually arousing while also seeing them as a person with agency. Daario and Dany both objectify each other, but Daario obviously still sees Dany as a person with sexual agency – he waits for her to make her choice, and follows her orders. I think it’s a little less clear whether Dany treats Daario as a person or just a sex toy. She’s kind of a jerk towards him, to be honest, what with all the ordering him to leave, then come back, then fuck her, etc. It seems like she has a fear of intimacy and won’t let him get too close, because she’s afraid of becoming vulnerable (a very human thing). What do you mean by objectify? And what does Daario do, specifically, which you find objectionable?

    I don’t think I’m being condescending. I just find it to be unfair when you say that Dany sleeping with Daario means that he’s controlling her without any evidence showing that to be the case since she doesn’t actually do anything he really wants. You literally said that the fact she slept with him alone should be enough to show he’s controlling her. That’s circular logic.

    I don’t see any harm in the Daario relationship. None has come of it, and I doubt that any harm will come from it. It’s not Draco in leather pants at all, since Draco had done cruel things to the protagonists from the very beginning whereas Daario has literally done nothing wrong when it comes to Dany. I don’t particularly like Daario, even now, but I think his role in the story is actually to complicate “bad boy” narratives, not to play them straight. GRRM rarely plays a trope straight.

    Regarding Dany’s decision making in general, your characterization that I think she can do no wrong is completely off base. I think Dany makes a lot of on the fly decisions she doens’t think through, and is extremely insecure and uncertain throughout the book. Mostly this is because she’s in a really terrible situation since she has no choice which would not be extremely risky and/or actually harmful. However I think a few things are clear. From the beginning, she wants peace. She doens’t want to fight back because she wants to prove to herself that she can rule over a peaceful kingdom. There are forces resisting that from inside and out, namely a rich and powerful minority. IMO her biggest mistake was letting the rich and powerful minority maintain power in her court. She should have had more advisers from the lower and middle classes, former slaves and every day people. In the case of closing the gates, she clearly was reacting to the situation at hand. There was a plague outside, and she wanted it to stay outside. In addition to preventing her people from catching plague, she also wanted to maintain peace so she didn’t send her army out to fight the plague ridden army. Both times her intention was to maintain peace and she picked the peaceful option that would acheive these means. You’er right that she wasn’t thinking in particular of her enemies becoming weaker but it just seems like an obvious consequence. I think marrying Hizdar was a mistake, and especially allowing him to make a peace with the Yunkish without insisting that slavery would not be allowed. She massively sacrificed her principles here.

  215. Turri
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    With “hide spoilers” on, the comment section now looks like an official government document on the Roswell-JFK connection.

  216. Jacarb
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Oh Mereen, look what you do to the boards.

    Whether the book’s Mereen is a convolution of intrigue that will sort itself out or a hot editing mess (and it can be both), D&D are going to clean/simplify it. And they will have to do so so much that anyone’s prediction is as good as the next. At least that’s my non-opinion.

    And how well they do so will be a preview of how things go if the show passes the books. I remain optimistic.

    I am very happy for Polliver’s return. I was bothered at first by the Tickler dying, but with Arya going all stabwise on that Frey soldier, while still having reason to go ballistic on Polliver, we’ll get double the vengeance!

    I’m guessing we’ll see the goatherd’s daughter get killed. It’ll remove any ambiguity for viewers, and makes sense with the scene being so tearful.

    Regarding Loras’s portrayal, I don’t think it’s far from the book. He’s a noted tourney knight. His skills transfer to real battle, for sure, but compared to Garlan–the true Tyrell beast–he’s all about putting on a show. And anyone who thinks a teenager would stay true to the whole, “I’ll never love again!” bit…

    Oh, an edit: he’ll be on the Kingsguard. Remember that Cersei claims to have a way out of the wedding. My guess for the lack of older brothers is that the Tyrell’s will simply prefer a controllable cousin inheriting Highgarden over Cersei’s son.

    Olyvar and Oberyn makes so much sense to me. Though after reading this whole thread on my phone, I don’t remember who to credit. Well thought, friend!

  217. Jacarb
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    OR…Tywin manages to change things so that Jaime can inherit, opening the door for Loras. I really just think that after Jaime’s Lannister disillusionings show him what he doesn’t want to be, his interactions with Loras show him what he wants to be; he sees a young version of himself in Loras, and when he scolds Loras he then holds himself to the same standard. Drawing further parallels would only makes that stronger.

  218. Veltigar
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns:
    We seem to have different definitions of “objectify” and that’s causing some confusion.In my view, it’s totally possible to objectify someone and yet also treat them as a human being.Objectify means “see as something which is sexually arousing”.You can see your lover as sexually arousing while also seeing them as a person with agency.Daario and Dany both objectify each other, but Daario obviously still sees Dany as a person with sexual agency – he waits for her to make her choice, and follows her orders. I think it’s a little less clear whether Dany treats Daario as a person or just a sex toy.She’s kind of a jerk towards him, to be honest, what with all the ordering him to leave, then come back, then fuck her, etc.It seems like she has a fear of intimacy and won’t let him get too close, because she’s afraid of becoming vulnerable (a very human thing). What do you mean by objectify?And what does Daario do, specifically, which you find objectionable?

    … You can’t just make meanings up as you go along.

    ob·jec·ti·fy (b-jkt-f) tr.v. ob·jec·ti·fied, ob·jec·ti·fy·ing, ob·jec·ti·fies:
    To present or regard as an object: “Because we have objectified animals, we are able to treat them impersonally” (Barry Lopez).

    queenofthorns:
    I don’t think I’m being condescending.I just find it to be unfair when you say that Dany sleeping with Daario means thathe’s controlling her without any evidence showing that to be the case since she doesn’t actually do anything he really wants.You literally said that the fact she slept with him alone should be enough to show he’s controlling her. That’s circular logic.

    This is a textbook strawman. I didn’t say that he controlled her, I said he influenced her. There is a huge difference. And that influence is very real. Firstly he’s able to bed her pretty much openly. Which damages her reputation and standing. Secondly, the fact that she keeps on giving him easy choirs (like the Lhazareen mission) to keep him as far away from harms way as possible. Even the fact that she’s constantly mooning over him instead of keeping her distance, like she know she should, shows that Daario had influence over her. Sadly, the douche overplayed his hand with the Meereenese RW.

    queenofthorns: ogic.

    I don’t see any harm in the Daario relationship. None has come of it, and I doubt that any harm will come from it. It’s not Draco in leather pants at all, since Draco had done cruel things to the protagonists from the very beginning whereas Daario has literally done nothing wrong when it comes to Dany. I don’t particularly like Daario, even now, but I think his role in the story is actually to complicate “bad boy” narratives, not to play them straight. GRRM rarely plays a trope straight.

    It has damaged her standing and reputation amongst her followers and enemies alike. And again there is no proof whatsoever that Daario did anything right when it comes to Dany either, at least in the sense that he did anything that wasn’t directly in his own interest as wel. A fact that you conveniently forget.

    Add to that that he has shown that he’s a blackhearted traitor who killed his fellow captains and the fact that he wasn’t executed by the Yunkai’i and that’s all the clues you need to conclude that he’s been set up as her betrayal for gold. And there is also the foreshadowing in te line about old and bold sellswords (explained in one of the previous posts) and the fact that the betrayal for gold needs to happen soon, and nobody besides Daario fits all the requirements to make a dramatically compelling reveal

    And you are being delusional if you really think that GRRM never plays a fantasy trope straight. That statement doesn’t make any sense because if GRRM always comes from the left field, he would again become predictable. GRRM is such a great writer because some things he plays out straight while others get a twist. And what counts as a spin is also pretty subjective. For example some people consider Ned Stark’s execution as a spin, but it clearly was not. People like Ned die at the beginning of pretty much every fantasy story, the only reason why Ned’s death differs is that we spend more time in his head. I call that inventive storytelling, but it isn’t a spin/twist in the same way as the Jaime reveal was or Dany’s failure in Meereen.

    queenofthorns: Regarding Dany’s decision making in general, your characterization that I think she can do no wrong is completely off base. I think Dany makes a lot of on the fly decisions she doens’t think through, and is extremely insecure and uncertain throughout the book. Mostly this is because she’s in a really terrible situation since she has no choice which would not be extremely risky and/or actually harmful. However I think a few things are clear. From the beginning, she wants peace. She doens’t want to fight back because she wants to prove to herself that she can rule over a peaceful kingdom. There are forces resisting that from inside and out, namely a rich and powerful minority. IMO her biggest mistake was letting the rich and powerful minority maintain power in her court. She should have had more advisers from the lower and middle classes, former slaves and every day people. In the case of closing the gates, she clearly was reacting to the situation at hand. There was a plague outside, and she wanted it to stay outside. In addition to preventing her people from catching plague, she also wanted to maintain peace so she didn’t send her army out to fight the plague ridden army. Both times her intention was to maintain peace and she picked the peaceful option that would acheive these means. You’er right that she wasn’t thinking in particular of her enemies becoming weaker but it just seems like an obvious consequence. I think marrying Hizdar was a mistake, and especially allowing him to make a peace with the Yunkish without insisting that slavery would not be allowed. She massively sacrificed her principles here.  
    Quote

    Nope, you’re wrong again. To Dany peace is no final goal. What she wants is prosperity for her people, freedom for all and even further along the route the IT in Westeros. During ADWD she doesn’t just make on the fly decisions, she actively avoids ruling and working towards her goals. Her sueing for peace was one big misguided screw-up, motivated by fear. It’s true that she faced some pretty harsh decisions, but instead of digging her heels in the sand and tackling the hardships to work towards the goal of prosperity, freedom and the IT she bailed and sued for peace. With that she did not just throw her principles out of the windows she also unwillingly gave up on her goals. If it weren’t for Drogon’s return, Dany’s queste for the IT and a better life for her people would have died an untimely death. Because the peace she went for preserved slavers wealth, power and influence (it actually augmented it because they knew they could get away with pretty much everything now), tied her down to that shithole city Meereen (her marrying with Hizzie) and would cause longterm suffering for her subjects. Luckily, she seems to have seen the light on the Sea of Dothrak and her return will herald a time of great prosperity for the (freed) slaves. After all a dragon plants no trees, a fact which her enemies will find out for themselves in twow

  219. Eljuma
    Posted January 10, 2014 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic: It’s even more ridiculous that Littlefinger would even need to employ a spy to go far as to bed Loras to obtain vital information. Why doesn’t he just have his own spies hide out in the garden where the conversation first arose?

    Because Varys has his own spies spying on Littlefinger’s spies and they both know it.

  220. maia
    Posted January 11, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    after reading all the comments, it looks like S4 will end with another “Dany moment”….non bookreaders will lose interest sooner or later if they keep ending each season with a “Dany moment”…..why the hell will I keep on watching when it’s so obvious Dany will take the “Iron Throne” back.

  221. WildSeed
    Posted January 11, 2014 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    queenofthorns,

    I’m really enjoying the direction this conversation is going, including your well made points.
    While there is little argument that Danerys finds herself between a rock and a hard place, her instincts have allowed for pragmatic decisions in ADWD. For a while I thought the Green Grace might step in as a more astute advisor, even substituting for Quaithe, but Danerys ended up acting on need and instinct. For the moment, these may appear as poor choices, however arguable that these could be only temporary. It doesn’t help that the author left so many open ended chapters, though these will prove thoroughly engrossing once TWOW is published. Danerys actions could be perceived as immature or contemptuous as any ASOIAF character, from GRRM method of demonstrating flaws in those he write about. For the most part, I’ve had to balance each personas in order to perceive the larger premise, something that’s particularly frustrating as a reader.

    Daario ‘s future is as uncertain as any non pivotal character, but I wonder too if Danerys fails him, not the other way around. Who knows. I can recall those last meandering chapters , with Danerys and Drogon, following the Thunderdome theatrics. What matters now is the next move that she and her probable new Khalasaar will take. I don’t share Hodor’s Bastard’s concern for Victarrion being any great influence. No one likes a boaster like this dude.

  222. WildSeed
    Posted January 11, 2014 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    maia,

    There’s the books and then there’s the show. The onscreen production will continue to make changes where permissible, but overall follow the dizzying path that ASOIAF takes us. It’s anyone’s guest what the last scenes may end up becoming, but it won’t be straightforward. The getting there will be interesting enough to watch for. I’m guessing that we won’t have a repeat of a tired premise.

  1. […] Estamos a três meses da estreia da quarta temporada de Game of Thrones e alguns pequenos e importantes papeis foram descobertos pelo site Winter is Coming. […]


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