Finn Jones teases season 4 flirtation
By Ours is the Fury on in Press, Speculation.

Loras Tyrell
It looks like the Knight of the Flowers may be searching for a new sparring partner in season 4 of Game of Thrones. Finn Jones, who plays Loras Tyrell, chatted recently with Access Hollywood about the exciting new episodes and the future of his character’s love life.

“It’s been a fantastic season. Everyone’s worked really hard and the show is just going from strength to strength to strength to strength,” Finn told Access Hollywood at HBO’s post-Golden Globes soiree at the Beverly Hilton Hotel on Sunday.

“It feels like it’s really finding it’s ground now and it’s about to explode so I’m really excited,” he added.

Jones also reportedly said, “There’s not enough hot gay sex for Loras this season. I’m afraid there’s just not enough,” and that this year, he has “a slight flirtation with one of the new characters.”

Some potentially spoilery speculation about what these quotes may be alluding to, after the break.

Ours is the Fury: A flirtation with “one of the new characters” most likely refers to Oberyn Martell, known to be bisexual. It’s interesting to see that there presumably won’t be a love scene for Loras, based on his remarks. We know that Olyvar, Littlefinger’s spy and Loras’s lover last season, is coming back this year, but apparently not in connection with Tyrell. I’m wondering if Olyvar will flirt with and spy on Oberyn instead, or if Littlefinger will find another use for him, possibly filling a role similar to the one played by Marillion in A Storm of Swords.


195 Comments

  1. anguy
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Hodor

  2. Benoit
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    So nobody comments on gay sex basically? I do!

    HODOR!

  3. Randa
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    …oooooor a Kettleblack.

  4. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    He’s supposed to be in perpetual celibate mourning after Renly’s death cause that was his one love, but no, we need hamfisted gay sex cause they’re desperate for the scandal.

    I freaking hate what they’ve done with this character in the show.

  5. Al Swearengen
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Don’t the Martell’s and Tyrell’s hate each other?

  6. Randa
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Agreed.

  7. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Yes, because everything that characters in GoT/aSoIaF proclaim is obviously true.
    I for one, find it hard to believe that Loras would never have sex again. That said, it was probably a bit soon on the show.

  8. Chysko Ikana
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Al Swearengen,

    Oberyn even cripled his oldest brother in the books.

  9. Oberyn Wan Kenobi
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, the tyrells and the martells hate eachother so if Loras gets past that I’m hoping all he’s referring to in the season will be Loras being flirty with Oberyn and then he comes up with some great line and shuts it down.

  10. Ter
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Shame he won’t be getting any D this season. I always thought that the Oberyn-Loras pairing would be interesting because they’re supposed to hate each other because of the Martell-Tyrell animosity.
    Anyways, looking forward to that flirtation whatever it might be.

  11. realitytripz
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t Loras supposed to be in the kingsguard??? What’s going on?

  12. House Mormont
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    I hope the RV is all flirty and seductive and powerful and Loras is putty in his hands and then he just leaves like he doesn’t even care, that’d be very Oberyn. I also can’t wait to see his and Ellaria’s love life since we didn’t see it in the book

  13. Watson
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Yes, let’s take this statement that the show isn’t inventing a gay sex scene as evidence of the show’s constant need to invent gay sex scenes.

  14. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    He’s supposed to be in the Kingsguard — he’s not supposed to be having sex with ANYONE, and he doesn’t. In the books he was in genuine love and grieving for Renly. Jaime and Tyrion both note this. In the show he’s another promiscuous whore having sex every which way just because he can.

    They’ve ruined this character, period.

  15. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    We need the candle speech….but I guess that was overcome by S3 LF bedroom spygate. :(

    Since there was no show Willas for the RV to cripple, I guess there is no reason for the festering hate in the show, but the Martells and Tyrells should not be that close for several other political reasons.

    A flirtation though? God, they really are belittling show Loras. Hopefully, Oberyn puts him in his place, like Cersei did, and moves on to perplex and fluster Cersei and Jaime often.

  16. James
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Saying “there’s not enough hot gay sex for Loras” doesn’t mean there isn’t any…

  17. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Cue to flood of “no homo!” comments.

    How is Loras being interested in men, as gay men are belittling to him?

  18. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    I agree they have ruined this character. Irresponsible gay representation – promiscuous (Olyvar) and materialistic (talking about weddings to Sansa). Could forgive if this was in the books but it’s not.

    Perhaps Littlefinger uses Olyvar to get to RV then?

  19. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Of course he isn’t meant to have sex, but when has that stopped people? Yes he loved Renly and was still grieving, but it’s not exactly a stretch to imagine him having sex in secret.

    Also, a “promiscuous whore”? Really? Having sex with one man makes him a promiscuous whore? Slut shaming isn’t cool man.

  20. Turncloak
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    NO! Loras should hate the Red Viper and the Tyrells should hate the Martells! Please don’t screw this up!

  21. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Cue to flood of “no homo!” comments.

    How is Loras being interested in men, as gay men are belittling to him?

    Because in the book, he isn’t interested in gay men, he is in love with Renly and when he dies, he remains devoted and joins the Kingsguard, who are celibate. And in the book he stays that way. It’s not belittling to be interested in men, it’s belittling to portray a gay character as ONLY interested in men.

  22. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Do we have confirmation that Loras hated the Martells? Because Willas and Oberyn were pen pals, and I didn’t see much hate from anyone except Mace.

  23. sjwenings
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Hope they’re not set on making Loras “that gay guy in GoT” I’m hoping for just a little flirt, and for him to have fair bit of non-gay things to do for the rest of the season

  24. Greenjones
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    I imagine Oberyn will get some hate from Mace and maybe Olenna will insult Ms. Sand as she does, but there’s no reason for Loras to bother with any of that. Anyways, at this point in the show Loras has Pycelle-level importance so if they use him to help us to get to know the much-more-important-this-season Oberyn that would help us avoid exposition (as in “say, I heard that Oberyn like boys too!).

  25. TonyGen
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    [quote]it’s belittling to portray a gay character as ONLY interested in men.[/quote]

    How is Loras only interested in men? You are pretending like every scene has him checking out dudes and trying to hook up which is blatantly not true.

    We have no idea if Loras has had sex again book wise. He talks about not wanting to get married and never falling in love again…but people do realize love and sex aren’t the same thing?

    I wasn’t a huge fan of the way that scene is done but I think people freaked out a little too much, and part of me can’t help but wonder if it is because many people are for some reason uncomfortable with sex and intimacy between two dudes.

  26. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    sjwenings:
    Hope they’re not set on making Loras “that gay guy in GoT” I’m hoping for just a little flirt, and for him to have fair bit of non-gay things to do for the rest of the season

    Me too. But don’t get your hopes up.

  27. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Taena: Because in the book, he isn’t interested in gay men, he is in love with Renly and when he dies, he remains devoted and joins the Kingsguard, who are celibate. And in the book he stays that way. It’s not belittling to be interested in men, it’s belittling to portray a gay character as ONLY interested in men.

    In love with a man would suggest either gay or bi. Interested in men, no?
    I agree that there were a couple of cheesy gay jokes in season 3, but just because he’ll be flirting with someone in season 4, doesn’t mean that’s all he’ll do.

    Loras didn’t have much of any material in ASOS until Jaime arrives. I suspect they were just looking for filler.

  28. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    TonyGen:
    [quote]it’s belittling to portray a gay character as ONLY interested in men.[/quote]

    How is Loras only interested in men?You are pretending like every scene has him checking out dudes and trying to hook up which is blatantly not true.

    We have no idea if Loras has had sex again book wise.He talks about not wanting to get married and never falling in love again…but people do realize love and sex aren’t the same thing?

    I wasn’t a huge fan of the way that scene is done but I think people freaked out a little too much, and part of me can’t help but wonder if it is becausemany people are for some reason uncomfortable with sex and intimacy between two dudes.

    Bingo. All the other characters besides the kids have sex and NBD, but a gay scene with a penis in it causes a huge freakout.
    It’s like those people who say “I don’t mind gay people. Just don’t shove it in my face.”

  29. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    TonyGen:
    [quote]it’s belittling to portray a gay character as ONLY interested in men.[/quote]

    How is Loras only interested in men?You are pretending like every scene has him checking out dudes and trying to hook up which is blatantly not true.

    True, I just thought there should have been more of it – love book Loras – wanted more of his fight stuff in the series is all :) I don’t see him as only wanting to hook up but I worry the way their going, that’s all that unsullied viewers will take away.

    I wasn’t a huge fan of the way that scene is done but I think people freaked out a little too much, and part of me can’t help but wonder if it is becausemany people are for some reason uncomfortable with sex and intimacy between two dudes.

    Well you might be right but I’d like to hope attitudes are changing. I certainly wasn’t uncomfortable. In fact I remember thinking ‘is that it?’ Yet more evidence of inequality in the media – quite graphic sex scenes for hetero couples, even incestuous couples ffs, but gay couples kiss a bit and that’s a ‘gay sex scene.’

  30. Darkstar
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Taena: Because in the book, he isn’t interested in gay men, he is in love with Renly and when he dies, he remains devoted and joins the Kingsguard, who are celibate. And in the book he stays that way. It’s not belittling to be interested in men, it’s belittling to portray a gay character as ONLY interested in men.

    WTF????????

  31. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: just because he’ll be flirting with someone in season 4, doesn’t mean that’s all he’ll do.

    You’re right and I hope the showrunners see the potential in this character. I’m just saying based on S3, I’m not getting my hopes up too much. They’ve changed so much with him being engaged to Cersei and Jamie arriving back in KL early, this season is obviously going to stray from the books. Hope it affects Loras positively.

  32. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    Yes he loved Renly and was still grieving, but it’s not exactly a stretch to imagine him having sex in secret.

    Except it is a stretch. A gigantic one.
    He went on a rampage killing people after Renly died. He told Tyrion he would never love anyone else. He specifically joined an order because they’re not allowed to love anyone else. Why the hell would this all imply he’s having sex with random squires?

    And you better be joking with that whole slut shaming bullshit. That’s what his character is, a gigantic whore and the token gay boy in the entire series. Which means he needs to have gay sex as much as possible.

  33. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Darkstar: WTF????????

    Wtf what? D:

    I’m really worried people are miss-reading my post now. I’m NOT saying it is belittling to be interested in men.

    I think this character has a lot of depth in the book, and they’ve made him appear a bit shallow in the show, that’s all I’m saying.

    Yes he does some cool fighting in the show, just not as much as he does in the book.

  34. Darkstar
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Taena:
    I agree they have ruined this character. Irresponsible gay representation – promiscuous (Olyvar) and materialistic (talking about weddings to Sansa). Could forgive if this was in the books but it’s not.

    Perhaps Littlefinger uses Olyvar to get to RV then?

    Are you fucking kidding me? Olyvar seduced him, and he was hurting and grieving so therefore an easy target. As far as the wedding talk, that showed his feminine side, it didn’t make him “materialistic”. And, and how is does one sex act make him promiscuous?

    Get a grip people!

  35. Myk
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Gross. Butters won’t like this.

  36. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    How is Loras being interested in men, as gay men are belittling to him?

    I can’t speak for others, but you and I both know that “show Loras” is a weak tool that the showrunners are seriously manipulating for their own purposes. It’s not about being gay at all…..he’s just a strangely-written, disrespected, illogical character that only slightly resembles the book Loras.

  37. Darkstar
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    cosca,

    Except it is a stretch. A gigantic one.
    He went on a rampage killing people after Renly died. He told Tyrion he would never love anyone else. Why the hell would this all imply he’s having sex with random squires?

    And you better be joking with that whole slut shaming bullshit. That’s what his character is, a gigantic whore and the token gay boy in the entire series. Which means he needs to have gay sex as much as possible.

    Absolutely ridiculous.

  38. Greenjones
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Loras’s line “How did you know that I wanted to” I think indicates that this was first time at it again. I imagine its hard for him to find a partner with the stigma of it and whatnot.

    When people say its unrealistic that people know he’s gay, remember that the courts of medieval kings were rife with homosexuality and despite gossip about which noble did what, they were not punished. After all the nobles were in charge.

  39. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Darkstar,

    I’d expect nothing more from somebody named Darkstar. Very apt.

  40. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Darkstar: Are you fucking kidding me?Olyvar seduced him, and he was hurting and grieving so therefore an easy target. As far as the wedding talk, that showed his feminine side, it didn’t make him “materialistic”. And, and how is does one sex act make him promiscuous?

    Get a grip people!

    Ok alright, it’s midnight, I may have phrased it badly.

    I just don’t like the way they have changed him from the books. I never imagined that the book Loras I read would be an ‘easy target’ for anyone, at any point, about anything.

  41. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Yes, he was justifiably very upset when Renly died. That doesn’t negate the fact that sexual desire is a natural urge, and that he’s young and impulsive. Also, as GRRM is so fond of reminding us, words are wind. It isn’t a gigantic stretch.

    “Gigantic whore”? He had casual sex with one guy. Sounds like slut shaming to me.

  42. Benjamin Wakefield
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Stop this horrible prudishness you guys! It’s perfectly normal and cool to have sex with other people soon after a loving relationship ends. What’s not particularly realistic or normal is sticking to a vow of chastity!

    Having said that, Loras’s lines about dresses and flowers at the wedding etc were some pretty crass gay stereotyping.

  43. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Weak and strangely written I can understand. How is he illogical though?

  44. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I can’t speak for others, but you and I both know that “show Loras” is a weak tool that the showrunners are seriously manipulating for their own purposes. It’s not about being gay at all…..he’s just a strangely-written, disrespected, illogical character that only slightly resembles the book Loras.

    Thank-you, that’s what I meant.

  45. Benoit
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Darkstar: Absolutely ridiculous.

    I second that!

  46. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    Is being a slut.. not a bad thing now? You’re very far away from Tumblr, friend.

    You can defend this character until your lungs collapse, but that is never gonna change the fact he’s a piss-poor adaptation from his book counterpart. This isn’t even Loras, as far as I can tell. Just Bob Tyrell the token gay stereotype.

  47. Enfield
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    As much as I liked his character in the books, it fit better for the show to have him rebound like he did. Not to mention it’s a bit more realistic. Not everything has to be a grand gesture. Sometimes people just enjoy life’s simpler pleasures.

    Edit: Another thought. Just because he has stereotypical qualities doesn’t make him an empty shell of a character. I thought his interactions with Cersei, Sansa, and the others were well done outside of the other scene.

  48. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    cosca:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Weak and strangely written I can understand. How is he illogical though?

    Based on my highly-opinionated input on this topic (which you might have missed in prev threads) the huge logical misstep surrounding Loras is based on his reaction to Renly’s murder and not continuing to blame Brienne….but I guess you can tack that on to a flaw in the show writing.

  49. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    1. He doesn’t even fit the general description of a “slut”. He slept with one man.

    2. The term “slut” itself is problematic, but yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex with multiple partners. Shaming people for enjoying sex is wrong.

    I never said that Loras is perfect in the show. He’s inconsistent, he’s weak, he’s too often the butt of gay jokes. However, I don’t agree with this particular criticism.

  50. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    It doesn’t seem a such a huge stretch to me, but I may be wrong.

    Loras’s logic seems to be:
    Stannis wants Renly’s troops, he has a motive to kill Renly, Brienne seemed utterly devoted, therefore Stannis had Renly killed, not Brienne.

  51. Josla
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    I’m with Taena and Renly’s Peach regarding the fact that Loras is a much more interesting character in the books than he is in the show. While reading him I was impressed by his skills and his nature as well as how deep his story seemed to be. I honestly thought about him as one of the good guys that I was rooting for. His grieving of Renly should have been more prominent in the show and he should have being shown like the capable and respectable warrior he is and not just as the gay character that’s been transformed into a joke for the series.

    Darkstar: Are you fucking kidding me? Olyvar seduced him, and he was hurting and grieving so therefore an easy target. As far as the wedding talk, that showed his feminine side, it didn’t make him “materialistic”. And, and how is does one sex act make him promiscuous?

    Get a grip people!

  52. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    Still a shitty adaptation of his character. You have not shed any new light on the subject.. Other than Tumblr logic being based out of the Moon.

    But I already knew that, so.

  53. Don't care
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Obviously Loras should hate Oberyn for wounding his non-existent brother. Get the fuck over it book tards. The book to TV adaptation has made changes to certain characters, don’t like it? Stop watching the show and poisoning every discussion with your incessant whining.

  54. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    cosca:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Loras’s logic seems to be:
    Stannis wants Renly’s troops, he has a motive to kill Renly, Brienne seemed utterly devoted, therefore Stannis had Renly killed, not Brienne.

    Yes….but you and others had to deduce/assume that logic…it wasn’t deduced properly onscreen, which pissed many off. You don’t have to be a purist to be frustrated with that. I’m trying to move into an acceptance phase on this topic, but these articles cause me to step backwards, not forwards. Arrgghhh!

  55. Taena
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Enfield:
    I thought his interactions with Cersei, Sansa, and the others were well done outside of the other scene.

    I agree that his scenes are well acted. (Personally, and probably controversially, I hated his interaction with Cersei because Loras came across as weak, Cersei came across as petulant but that was the writing not the acting).

    If you take them as two different characters, book Loras and show Loras, then fine, they are different and they work in their own contexts. But I prefer book Loras and I guess my issue is WHY have they changed him? Why is this new character they have created better for the show? Because I’m pretty sure he would have worked as he was.

    Coming back to the original discussion point, there is no way of knowing, from this tiny hint of information, what they will do with Loras in S4, but I hope they do something interesting with him.

  56. Don't care
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Yes….but you and others had to deduce/assume that logic…it wasn’t deduced properly onscreen, which pissed many off. You don’t have to be a purist to be frustrated with that.I’m trying to move into an acceptance phase on this topic, but these articles cause me to step backwards, not forwards.Arrgghhh!

    “Who had the most to gain from Renly’s death? I’m going to stick a sword through his righteous heart” That seems pretty clear that Loras thought Stannis had the most to gain from Renly’s death. I’m pretty sure Jinglebell’s could have deduced that. Or maybe you need it spelled out a little more clearer. Although, in that case, you would probably complain the show isn’t subtle enough.

  57. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    It’s definitely not clearly explained. I can’t deny that it could have been handled better, but it doesn’t take much effort to fill in the gaps from what Loras said.. It’s not really an illogical conclusion for Loras to come to

  58. Jordan
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard

    , cosca,

    I’d also add to that, that part of Loras’ analysis in the show (as I understand it) is that he knows that Brienne loved Renly as much as he did, and since he would never harm Renly, she wouldn’t either.

    Hodor’s Bastard- I”m not sure if I”m misunderstanding you here, but I sense that in part, you object to Loras believing Brienne because you think it shows a lack of love on his part for Renly that he didn’t swear bloody revenge on her.

    So, I would counter and say that his believing her in the show is a manifestation of his love for Renly.

    Also, it strikes me that since Brienne didn’t kill Renly, it doesn’t make much sense to condemn show!Loras from believing her innocent.

  59. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Don’t care,

    Sure, I’ll accept that for “show Loras”. Thx, but the rest wasn’t really necessary.

  60. Don't care
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Apparently my “easy opinions” are not as nuanced as your subtle retorts to differing opinions.

    Anyways, I recommend you continue spending countless hours discussing a show with “terrible writing” that you so much despise and yet for whatever reason can’t stop talking about.

    I truly enjoy reading the essays of an armchair writer such as yourself on how he could improve the show as it currently stands.

  61. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Don’t care,

    Holy strawman! Don’t strain yourself trying to shove so many words into his mouth.

  62. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Book Loras is better. I didn’t have a problem with him screwing another guy after Renly. I did have a problem with his discussion with Sansa. They stereotyped him, and it hurt the character. My hope is that Loras is convinced by Jaime to join the Kings Guard in season 4 and moving forward we get the Loras who teaches Tommen how to joust and not the guy who dreams about fringed sleeves and beautiful weddings.

  63. Jordan
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    No argument there.

  64. The Dragon Demands
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    My running guess is, and always has been, that they’re going to “explain” that Oberyn and Ellaria are both bisexual and both sexually adventurous by having Varys pass through Littlefinger’s upscale brothel to deliver a message….

    ….and while we’re at it, Loras is “drowning his sorrows” over Renly’s death again by fooling around with that Olyvar fellow, at the brothel.

    As ships passing in the night, as it were, Loras chances upon Oberyn there, sees that Oberyn is making out with a man, and half-serious but mostly joking flirty remarks are made, ending with Loras making a joke about “if only Ellaria knew you’re here”….at which point Ellaria pulls back the curtain to an alcove, fooling around with a woman, and interjects that she does.

    They ask if Loras wants to join them but he gets embarrassed and leaves.

    I suspect that this is how things will go down because 1 – they want to quickly establish that Oberyn and Ellaria are both bisexual, both sexually adventurous, have sort of an “open” relationship but are still deeply in love, but at the same time 2 – this is god-damned HBO. They wouldn’t pass up this opportunity.

  65. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    While we’re on the subject of writing, my opinion on the matter is that the demands of the shooting schedule, coupled with the budget and time constraints have hurt the show’s writing. It’s why I generally don’t lose my shit and proclaim D&D as hacks.

  66. Deekan
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I would like to chime in here by saying, first off, they have shown a scene where Littlefinger points out to Loras that Stannis had the most to gain from Renly’s death in Season 2 Episode 5. And, secondly, we don’t know if he doesn’t still blame Brienne; just because he believes Stannis was ultimately behind it does not mean he doesn’t still think Brienne was in some way responsible for Renly’s death. We won’t know until Season 4.

    Could it have been explained better? Maybe. But it would take precious show time to do so and is ultimately unimportant to the overall story. Some characters and side-stories are inevitably going to be nerfed in a 10 hr. show based on books of this scope.

  67. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    While I’m sure that does make their job harder, I thought the writing for Season 3 was the best so far. I know Season 1 get’s a lot of love, but I found the first half of Season 1 to be awkward and clunky. It felt lifeless to me. Of course they picked it up in the second half, but it still had an impact on my overall view of the season.

  68. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Don’t care,

    How do my posts imply that I despise the show? How are my thoughts regarding show Loras and other topics belittling other poster’s opinions? I rather enjoy the difference in well-thought opinions displayed here and I try to have fun during the few cumulative hours per week that I read this site.

    Geez, for someone with a “Don’t Care” moniker, you don’t seem to have a problem tossing insults to the wind when you surface every few weeks or so. However, given your moniker, I can’t take you seriously and I doubt many others do either.

  69. Drfunk
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Martells and Tyrells have hated each other for centuries because they share a border. They’re like the relationship between France/England, Japan/Korea. Within the last 10 years of the current GoT story, Mace’s eldest son and heir has been made a cripple (perhaps accidentally) through the Red Viper.

    So if Finn Jones is saying “not enough” as in there should be more, I’m sure it’ll be a random new character that’s being introduced and NOT the Viper. Not because we don’t want to see Viper bang some dude to literally reinforce his bi status, but because Loras is technically still not over Renly (which is how he still shows hostility towards Brienne and her sob story). I do fear though that it would be “easier” for them to introduce the whole Bi arc via a known face like Loras. HBO suits are probably nodding their head to appease the gay community…

    This is the essence of character assassination. It’s not a budget constraint, it’s to put in a shock value scene and essentially changing the character. An earlier commenter said “Just because the source material says he’s abstaining doesn’t mean we have to etc…” What they need to realize is that the Viper is there for the wrongs done against his family. The man is driven by hate, the whole Bi reveal is just a small aspect to his story. Yet I wouldn’t put it past HBO to put in a graphic scene on him going down on a dude with the suction sound once again just to put tabloid headlines the next day.

  70. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    Deekan,

    Will they even attempt to explain it though? I hope so. I like how you, cosca, DC and others explain it, but what was so problematic for the showrunners to digest about Loras’s presumptive and passionate implication of Brienne, which led to her being jailed in KL? Based on the responses here, it does sound like the showrunners are using that Stannis rationale to possibly enable Loras’s role in the Dragonstone attack in S5, which would bolster his character greatly, and possibly even take a heroic/tragic turn.

  71. cosca
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Drfunk:
    This is the essence of character assassination. It’s not a budget constraint, it’s to put in a shock value scene and essentially changing the character. An earlier commenter said “Just because the source material says he’s abstaining doesn’tmean we have to etc…” What they need to realize is that the Viper is there for the wrongs done against his family. The man is driven by hate, the whole Bi reveal is just a small aspect to his story. Yet I wouldn’t put it past HBO to put in a graphic scene on him going down on a dude with the suction sound once again just to put tabloid headlines the next day.

    It isn’t the essence of character assassination. Expanding on a clearly defined character trait s not character assassination. You can argue it’s gratuitous, but it’s not character assassination where the RV is concerned.

    Also, gay sex scenes are more and more normalised. The likelihood of such a scene making headlines is practically non-existent.

  72. TonyGen
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    What exactly is so scandalous and headline grabbing about about two dudes going at in 2014 DrFunk? I don’t know, maybe I am naive about other people but it boggles my mind that so many people seem to think it is a big deal. I have no doubt we will see a sex scene with Red Viper and a woman, is it really that crazy if there shot of him with a guy ? I agree it is only a small part of what makes the Red Viper the Red Viper, but on top of everything else he is a very randy guy who sleeps around a lot.

    Though I do agree having him and Loras hook up would be wrong and goes against the hatred that exists between the Martells/Tyrells, but I don’t think the show would go there. Finn seems to directly indicate there isn’t a sex scene involving Loras.

  73. Drfunk
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    TonyGen,

    Showing something graphic isn’t scandalous. This is GoT after all. Did they need to reinforce that particular scene with the sound effects? Casual viewers wouldn’t remember the deep affection between Renly and Loras, they’d remember that HBO showed a BJ with sound effects. My argument had nothing to do with graphic male or female nudity. I just pointed out that even though it has nothing to do with the budget, they may take their artistic license to focus on a part of the story that frankly is irrelevant in the big picture.

    I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s part of their “quota” (with some early articles stating HBO suits demanded they make the show raunchier), but you have to figure if it isn’t to make it into a tabloid buzzpoint then why focus on it at all? Maybe I’m being cynical but it seems to be pandering to as many demographics as possible and by extension not serving the story for the sake of “Oh no they didn’t”.

  74. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    TonyGen:
    I agree it is only a small part of what makes the Red Viper the Red Viper, but on top of everything else he is a very randy guy who sleeps around a lot.

    Do you ever get the feeling that GRRM wrote the RV as a wild, intensely passionate personal fantasy and alter ego of his, exploring the nuances and implied freedom of bi-sexuality, then quickly killed him off after feeling guilty about it? Just wondering… :) I would love to explore GRRM’s mind via the “Being John Malkovich” technique.

  75. WildSeed
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    I agree somewhat, with the travesty that is onscreen Loras’ characterization. I do not agree that he should be a ” widow in mourning ” type, either. What we’ve experienced onscreen revises our perception of the written character, yet hardly in the very sexual context that you describe. Oddly enough, it’s the male prostitute/ spy, Olyvar that raises my ire, as he will do just about anything for money. Far more deadly than just bedding him and a giggle afterward. That would be socially acceptable . At the moment, Lancel has demonstrated more daring than Loras, in scenes with Tyrion. That’s another one that may have his role altered, with respect to future story lines. It could a good thing if the adaptation proves interesting , or mucking up a thoroughly interesting twist that GRRM embedded with Jaime and ser Kevan’sfamily connection. I’m on the fence about keeping all that, but looking forward to what gets developed by Cogman and company.

    Where I agree with Loras’ mischaracterization , onscreen, is his very unimaginative and cowardly nature. He is at best weak, and impulsive. I would be hard pressed to perceive him as courageous or leading a battle at Dragonstone. There was a small attempt at KL, when he rode in wearing Renley’s amour , however heavily flanked by true warriors. Other than the familiar battle-wear, I doubt he wielded a sword through the swarm of Stannis’ men. If Loras does anything from hereon that involves bravery, I will be pleasantly surprised, although hopeful for future meaningful scenes. Either way , the level for success of this show will never hinge on a single character. From that I’ve accepted for the measure of success is that GoT continues to challenge and bring us something worth the watch.

  76. The Instrumentalist
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Finn said that Loras has a “slight flirtation” in the upcoming season. I honestly don’t understand why people are flipping, but I just wanna know if we can call it Fabulousgate…

  77. AngryRosFan
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    cosca:
    Renly’s Peach,

    Of course he isn’t meant to have sex, but when has that stopped people? Yes he loved Renly and was still grieving, but it’s not exactly a stretch to imagine him having sex in secret.

    Also, a “promiscuous whore”? Really? Having sex with one man makes him a promiscuous whore? Slut shaming isn’t cool man.

    Renly’s Peach:
    cosca,

    He’s supposed to be in the Kingsguard — he’s not supposed to be having sex with ANYONE, and he doesn’t. In the books he was in genuine love and grieving for Renly.Jaime and Tyrion both note this. In the show he’s another promiscuous whore having sex every which way just because he can.

    They’ve ruined this character, period.

    I agree with cosca. Bereaved people certainly can fall in love – or in lust – again after the loss of a loved one. Sometimes fairly soon after the death. Loneliness and loss are hard to take and it’s pretty common. There are plenty of supposed-to-be celibate people who… aren’t. Loras was not being celibate when he was in Renly’s Kings Guard, it doesn’t make him him promiscuous just because he’s trying to move on with his life.

    If Loras spends all next season in one of Littlefinger’s brothals, I will amend my opinion, but I don’t think they ruined the character by making him human.

  78. WildSeed
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Despite Loras’ earlier remarks, that pointed out a very unlikely consideration ( or illogic) for Brienne acting as an assassin , he may be coerced to lay blame…. perhaps offer doubt into the equation . After all, he cannot truly act as a witness. I wouldn’t rule out here or agree that this may likely be the outcome for Loras, but there is no doubt that “lady sapphires” represented an enemy and Stannis’ name will be thrown in the make the accusation even murkier. As Rh’llor is his witness,the usurper that is Stannis will be blamed for a myriad of ills.

  79. WildSeed
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    actor Finn Jones does bring some insights to the show, I especially like his natural sense of humor. He’s quite amusing during interviews.

  80. Chickenduck
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    About a year ago I wrote on here that I thought the RV would make a pass at Loras (maybe sleep with him, but he did only say flirtation) as a calculated insult to his betrothed Cersei’s honour, and the honour of the whole of House Lannister by extension.

    I still suspect that is the likely outcome.

    So… Maybe it will actually be manlove with a narrative purpose.

  81. loki
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    If there’s no gay sex, it truly might be the best season yet.

  82. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    He’s supposed to be in perpetual celibate mourning after Renly’s death cause that was his one love, but no, we need hamfisted gay sex cause they’re desperate for the scandal.

    I freaking hate what they’ve done with this character in the show.

    A man has needs. Seriously though. You can’t pretend to know if Loras was bangin anybody in the book. We don’t have a POV from him. Just cuz we see what Jamie and Tyrion think doesn’t mean they know if he’s fucked anybody. I don’t think show Loras has Been a. Character assassination for book Loras. He’s bad ass warrior, gay, seriously bad at the “game of thrones”, young, brash and quick to act not without thought. That pretty much is how I read the Knight of Flowers in the book

  83. Bannerless Bro
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    I was more pissed by the way they managed that scene with Sansa where he behaved like a stereotypical TV gay than the sex scene. Yeah, it killed my idea of Loras having a pure and ultra-dedicated love with Renly so great it made him join the Kingsguard, but I still could live with that. On the other hand, making him be interested in girly things do not fit his character at all: he is a skilled and yet romantic warrior, not a stereotypical sissy boy.

    Anyway, straight people in charge of what gay people should be.

  84. Chickenduck
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Bannerless Bro:

    Anyway, straight people in charge of what gay people should be.

    Haha. Pretty much.

  85. Cary Storm
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Bannerless Bro,

    You hit the nail on the head.

  86. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Wow this is getting outta control…. Fucking bananas! ( stick one of them in your pie hole, Dont Care- you sound like a fuckin troll.)

    I am in agreement that show Loras is not as…. Badass. I think this season will reign that in. If we get Jaime (via Tywin?) to get him into the kingsguard… And thru Jaime we get some faith that he is a decent, honest young man with a “flair” for glory…. And he admits this to Cersei/brienne/Tyrion? … We can still hope for some development in his character’s…. badassness….
    Which relates to many future plot lines…. The boy king and his paranoid mother, for instance.

  87. Ionuts
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    the show is just going from strength to strength to strength to strength“…. he should have said that the show is “growing stronger”…. since he’s a Tyrell (or at least his role) :P

  88. Dogmayor
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Don’t care,

    That’s fine…except that thought process makes absolutely zero fucking sense from the perspective of the characters. The way it was done in the show makes it even more likely for the characters to believe that Brienne had killed Renly. Renly was stabbed through the heart, and several members of his kingsguard were killed. Brienne was known to have been in the tent and she fled the scene…and yet Loras thinks Stannis killed Renly? My fucking ass. Lazy and stupid, also uninteresting.

  89. Felt Pelt
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    Kind of on topic, Stephen Dillane gave an interview about the show (he rarely does) where he said the nudity is “like German porn from the 1970s”:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/14/game-of-thrones-stephen-dillane-the-tunnel_n_4595628.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

    There’s not much more to it than that, but it’s a funny quote.

  90. kurozukin
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:13 am | Permalink

    Where I agree with Loras’ mischaracterization , onscreen, is his very unimaginative and cowardly nature. He is at best weak, and impulsive. I would be hard pressed to perceive him as courageous or leading a battle at Dragonstone. There was a small attempt at KL, when he rode in wearing Renley’s amour , however heavily flanked by true warriors. Other than the familiar battle-wear, I doubt he wielded a sword through the swarm of Stannis’ men.

    Except that he did wield a sword. We clearly see him, wearing Renly’s armor and helmet, charging his horse through the thick of Stannis’s men and fighting a bunch of soldiers. You might want to watch that scene again. Why is his being “heavily flanked by true warriors” supposed to be a mark against his courage? No one seems to think that Stannis, Tywin, or Robb are less badass because they happen to have a bunch of guys in armor behind them.

    I can’t help but wonder if, in decrying “gay stereotypes,” some people aren’t perpetuating stereotypes further. “Oh, he talked about wedding gowns in ONE SCENE where he was trying to charm a young girl with romantic dreams… therefore, he’s a cowardly sissy-boy who would never show up for a real battle, despite all visual evidence to the contrary!”

  91. Chickenduck
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    Felt Pelt:
    “like German porn from the 1970s”:

    Except in the 70s they had pubic hair!

    Obvious other gag… “For some reason, Shae’s scenes remind me of German porn in the 2000s…”

  92. Chickenduck
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    kurozukin: Except that he did wield a sword. We clearly see him, wearing Renly’s armor and helmet, charging his horse through the thick of Stannis’s men and fighting a bunch of soldiers. You might want to watch that scene again. Why is his being “heavily flanked by true warriors” supposed to be a mark against his courage? No one seems to think that Stannis, Tywin, or Robb are less badass because they happen to have a bunch of guys in armor behind them.

    I can’t help but wonder if, in decrying “gay stereotypes,” some people aren’t perpetuating stereotypes further. “Oh, he talked about wedding gowns in ONE SCENE where he was trying to charm a young girl with romantic dreams… therefore, he’s a cowardly sissy-boy who would never show up for a real battle, despite all visual evidence to the contrary!”

    I’d agree with this too.

  93. Felt Pelt
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    You’re right. I think what he was going for was “an overwhelming sense of perviness on the part of the creators not shared by the audience.”

  94. Cody Junier
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    Al Swearengen,

    Yes they do Swangin’! Atleast in the books… everything is slowly becoming a different story.

  95. Melisandre
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:29 am | Permalink

    Chysko Ikana,

    Yet Willas became good friends with Oberyn. No hate. Just love, baby. Sweet, sandy love.

  96. Renly's Peach
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    loki,

    I wouldn’t say that until ALL needless sex scenes are omitted. So I agree with Stephen Dillaine on this one.

  97. John
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    I think it’s somehow funny that many people get upset by the (in this case gay) nudity scenes, but no one is complaining about unnecessary violent scenes.
    Since when is a naked, not really ugly looking body (compared to modern standards) worse than a body that misses certain parts and is splattered with blood?

    I bet there are more violent scenes in GOT than sex scenes.

    (For the record: I don’t mind both of them, both fit into the GOT universe)

  98. Iridium
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    cosca,

    He’s supposed to be in the Kingsguard — he’s not supposed to be having sex with ANYONE, and he doesn’t. In the books he was in genuine love and grieving for Renly.Jaime and Tyrion both note this. In the show he’s another promiscuous whore having sex every which way just because he can.

    They’ve ruined this character, period.

    Hmm. Most of your posts on this topic sound trolly. But just in case you actually do hold these strange opinions, I’m going to wade in and offer a rebuttal:

    a) Being in the Kingsguard didn’t stop Jaime from sleeping with his sister. Didn’t stop the Kettlebacks either. So Loras would hardly be a trailblazer in that department.

    b) Sleeping with one guy – ONE! – after the traumatic loss of a previous longterm partner doesn’t make Loras a whore. It wouldn’t make anyone a “whore”. Or a slut, or whatever pejorative term you wish to sling around. Everyone handles grief differently, and just because you think someone should condemn themselves to the monastery (or in my case, the convent) after such a loss, doesn’t mean that it’s right for everyone.

    TV Loras is different from book Loras (not hugely, in my opinion, but I won’t argue that point here). But that’s all I’ll grant you. The remainder of your statements are just projections of your own puritan prejudice. Admit it and move along, comrade.

  99. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:09 am | Permalink

    I think one of the reasons he doesn’t come off as much of a badass in the show is because…well, he doesn’t really do a lot that merits being called a badass, including in the books. However, he does have a reputation as being a skilled warrior, a reputation discussed in both the book and the show, but with television you need to be shown something before you really believe it, so GRRM has an easier time making Loras seem like a badass. So far we saw him win one joust, immediately followed by almost being killed by Clegane, and really nothing else for the rest of season 1. Then he loses in a fight to Brienne. He comes in charging, wearing Renly’s armor, but of course the whole point is that we don’t know it’s him until later. And he doesn’t really have an opportunity to do anything badass later. I suppose they could have added another scene, but of all the characters that need screentime he’s pretty low on the list.

    His blaming Stannis was pretty darn clear to me, and made enough sense that I went along with it. Having sex with Olyvar didn’t offend me at all, in fact it was one of the only chances that GoT had to try to balance the scales of male and female nudity. However, his becoming a gay stereotype, for the sake of a cheap joke no less, offended me. I don’t say that as a Loras lover (I’m not…really don’t see much of the appeal except for how it reflects on Jaime), but as someone who cares about how homosexuals are portrayed in the media.

  100. Taena
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    Bannerless Bro:

    Anyway, straight people in charge of what gay people should be.

    Straight people can write gay characters however they like! Gay people are just PEOPLE – writers can’t appropriately represent the whole of the LGBT community with one character, certainly not in a fucking medieval fantasy! My problem is not how gay or stereotyped the character is, it is how they have changed him out of all recognition from the books.

  101. Summer is Coming
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:26 am | Permalink

    I don’t know about you but many things would have been different about showLoras, if Willas was brought into the equation. It could have been easily done.

    The Varys/Olena scene where in the end he suggests that the heir of Highgarden could marry the heir of Winterfell. ->immediately
    Make a Sansa/Marg/Loras scene in the godswood where the siblings try to convince Sansa to marry the heir of Highgarden. Sansa thinks is Loras and she is excited. Loras kindly reminds her he is entering the Kingsguard. Is their older brother Willas. Marg says how kind and gentle and good he is, etc etc. And then they mention he is crippled. Sansa then says she had a brother who was crippled and that she loved him nonetheless; she is sure that she will love Willas. Marg is excited about the prospect of them being sisters. Then show a spy hiding in the garden who tells LF about their plan. Or maybe Dontos, if they would have developed that storyline.

    The scene between Tywin and Olenna could have been done as well. the changes: Make Tywin threaten Olenna he will put Willas in the KG and not Loras. He mentions about Loras’s “affliction” and how that threatens the Tyrell future. Olenna asks if Tywin will let a cripple protect his grandson, and not one of the best knights in the kingdoms, for Willas is no knight. He says he will and Olenna consents to marry Willas to Cersei.

    The Tywin/Cersei/Tyrion epsiode 5 ending. Cersei is angry about marrying a cripple.

    Olenna/Loras/Marg scene at the Tyrion/Sansa wedding about their family tree, except Loras, not being involved, will be a bit amused. Loras dances with Sansa and says that they most likely wouldn’t have been happy together, and that Tyrion is a good man. (practically takes Garlan’s part; and compensates for that scene in the show between those two and the fringed sleeves-> less stereotype, more kindness for Loras). Loras then goes to Cersei and says: “You don’t have to worry Your Grace, my brother Willas…” / “I don’t care about your brother!” Cersei leaves; “Bitch!” whispers Loras disgusted. -> Loras doesn’t look like a fool, and says what everyone is thinking about Cersei, and he looks cool now. And he will still enter the KG, albeit a bit later.

    Oh I had to do this. I had to say it. Sorry. I know that some things had to be cut, but the story would have been cleaner imo; and people would not have been confounded by a name. He could have been known as the Highgarden heir, Loras/Marg’s brother. Oh well..

  102. Taena
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:27 am | Permalink

    Having said what I’ve said, I still think there’s a lot of potential for show Loras. He isn’t in the Kingsguard yet, Tywin was threatening it, so it will be interesting to see how he ends up there – will he chose it as a way to get to Stannis somehow? Will he jump at the chance to invade Dragonstone? Will we get to see some awesome Loras action there or is it too soon? Since there is no Willas and Loras is clearly a totally different character, I’ve got no issue with him flirting with Oberyn, just hope they give him more to do.

  103. Taena
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:34 am | Permalink

    Don’t care:
    Get the fuck over it book tards. The book to TV adaptation has made changes to certain characters, don’t like it? Stop watching the show and poisoning every discussion with your incessant whining.

    Erm I was under the impression that this forum was for discussion and debate. You can’t have that if everyone just loves everything the showrunners do. Would be a pretty boring forum.

  104. Red Hound
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    cosca:
    Renly’s Peach,

    1. He doesn’t even fit the general description of a “slut”. He slept with one man.

    2. The term “slut” itself is problematic, but yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex with multiple partners. Shaming people for enjoying sex is wrong.

    I never said that Loras is perfect in the show. He’s inconsistent, he’s weak, he’s too often the butt of gay jokes. However, I don’t agree with this particular criticism.

    “Wrong”, “problematic”. Who crowned you King (or Queen) of Morality that you get to decide what is right or wrong, what is problematic or not?

    People have different values and morals, that’s why concepts like right or wrong are totally subjective. The term “problematic” is used way too much in an attempt of turning a personal opinion into some sort of fact.

  105. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    Joining the Kingsguard means nothing…do you guys think any of the members of the Kingsguard in the books is celibate?? Not even Jaime!!

    Plus Loras doesn’t join the Kingsguard in the show…

    It’s one think to promise eternal love when your loved one dies, and much different to stay celibate forever…specially when you are 16

    Plus sex=/love

  106. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 5:08 am | Permalink

    Bannerless Bro:
    . On the other hand, making him be interested in girly things do not fit his character at all: he is a skilled and yet romantic warrior, not a stereotypical sissy boy.

    And yet he calls himself “The Knight of the Flowers” and wore a rainbow cloak :P

    Really, someone can be a skilled, badass warrior with “girly” interests…it just doesn’t fit the stereotype but that’s exactly what GRRM was aiming for, to show us that stereotypes are just that, a verys small part of reality

    PS: And to be honest it also bothered me a lot the first time I watched it

  107. kurozukin
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    Red Hound: “Wrong”, “problematic”. Who crowned you King (or Queen) of Morality that you get to decide what is right or wrong, what is problematic or not?

    People have different values and morals, that’s why concepts like right or wrong are totally subjective. The term “problematic” is used way too much in an attempt of turning a personal opinion into some sort of fact.

    “No one should impose their personal standards of morality on others; therefore, it’s fine to call someone a slut for having sex!” Sorry, what? I think there’s some error in logic here.

  108. GG
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    If Loras Tyrell had sex with the Red Viper, Westeros.org would explode. They’d rage-quit the internet.

  109. Satin
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Go Loras, go!

    To those that think the show version of Loras “ruined” the character, just so I get it right: a gay character who has stereotypical aspects, but is also still the best tourney fighter, is completely and utterly accepted by his family for what he is, and has make out and sex scenes with men on top of it is worse in your view than a character whose homosexuality is subtextual at best – do recall how many missed that he and Renly were a couple in the books – and who is conveniently celibate, while his partner is dead? I don’t know, I’m not handing the show an inclusion price for Loras or Renly yet, but I wouldn’t dream of giving it to GRRM. His gay characters are really, really playing it on the safe side – and if you want to claim that this was 15 years ago Jon Connington is even worse, since he’s only ever been pining for Rhaegar, and ADWD is from 2011.

  110. Lef
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    cosca: 2. The term “slut” itself is problematic, but yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex with multiple partners. Shaming people for enjoying sex is wrong.

    If you want to enjoy sex with multiple partners, then go ahead. We live in free countries, and that is certainly your right… But that same freedom will also give me the right to think whatever I want about your attitude.

    If I enjoy covering myself with my own feces.. I have every right to do so as well.. But that doesn’t mean that you need to approve what I do.

  111. TheBerylfly
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    *sigh*
    I would have been completely fine with Loras being more sexual and grounded in the show if they had shown SOME grieving for Renly after the first sad scene. They had many opportunities to do that, subtle or otherwise
    But noooo, let’s shove in some more gay jokes amd erase some of the best Loras book scenes for doing that

  112. Abyss
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    kurozukin,

    Very well put. And I would at that Loras made it to the very last round in the duels in season 2 and was only defeated by Brienne. He clearly is a skilled warrior, even Tywin admits this in season 3.

  113. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Lef,

    Sure you can think what you want, but you can do it without using insulting terms like slut or whore. That was the problem in this thread.

  114. Lef
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned,

    Slut: A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.

    What other term should we use?

  115. cosca
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Lef,

    Just because you have the right to be an asshole, doesn’t mean you need to be. Having the right to be racist, homophobic a slut shamer or whatever, doesn’t justify that point of view in anyway. If you have some kind of argument as to why slut shaming is fine, then go ahead, I’m all ears.

    Also, I find it incredibly strange that you would equate covering yourself with your own feces to having sex with different partners. One is natural, the other is deranged.

  116. Abyss
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    Lef,

    How about this one?

    Just to be clear, I am a man and while this definition might not be absolutely accurate, mainly because it’s way to short (and no, not all men are “sluts”), it hits the core of the problem. ;-)

  117. The Nose
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Plot twist: Loras is the Tyrell Oberyn will make a cripple.

    The older Tyrell brother is cut in the series, so this is a way to establish hate between the two families.

    Who knows – B&B have stated that there are bigger and bigger differences between the show and the books.

  118. Satin
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    TheBerylfly,

    as far as I understand, there were dialogue parts having Loras talk about Renly in the first drafts of the ep were he meets Olyvar, but they were cut for time, same as the scene with him and Renly’s armour.

    It would be nice if those things stayed in of course, but Loras is kind of a second or third-tier supporting character, it’s not surprising he’s one of the first to lose characterization lines or scenes. Here’s hoping he’ll get some kind of talk with Brienne about Renly next season, that would go a long way to re-establish his grief.

    P.S. For something slightly different, I like the suggestion of Olyvar not being Littlefinger’s spy this season, but ending up as a substitute Marillion. It definitely fits LF’s MO regarding his employees.

  119. GG
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    That’s not the point. The point is that they’ve totally underplayed the most important gay relationship in the books and they’ve turned him into a bumbling idiot who would blurt out to the first guy he shags that he’s going to marry Sansa Stark. The problem isn’t that he’s having sex(for me, at least). The problem is that the show makes it look like Renly mattered less than he actually did.

  120. GG
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    The Nose,

    The hate between the 2 families has been there for generations due to their wars in the Marshes. Willas’ crippling only caused it to flare up again. And, if they cripple him now, then they can’t cripple him, as part of Cersei’s plans, in the Battle of Dragonstone

  121. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    I’m with Taena and Renly’s Peach regarding the fact that Loras is a much more interesting character in the books than he is in the show.

    And I’m with you there, but it should be noted that the show makers are not necessarily concerned with a tertiary character being interesting. They want them to be entertaining (see Podrick for example).

    Loras is hands down my favorite male ASIOAF character (besides Jaime, sensing a theme?). I love him to pieces but he is not even a sympathetic character in the books. This might also pose a problem for the show.

    tl;dr I’m too very unhappy how inconsistent (from slightly sleazy schemer in season 1 to stammering idiot that seems to be terrified of women in season 3?) he is presented on the show, but I still have some hope for season 4. If only because Mace can now take over the stammering idiot part. A “slight flirtation” with Oberyn I can live with, him being heir of Highgarden is still rather problematic for me though.

  122. Greenjones
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    I love how Dillane can’t help but be honest about the show. A lot like Stannis really. I just hope there’s no blowback for his making that remark.

  123. House Mormont
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    First of all, WiC… there’s been so many good mature discussions on Loras and the show’s deviations to his character in recent threads… making a thread just about it where people will be ignorant and just focus on being gay and gay sex was the worst idea..

    Second of all, I’ve never mentioned this, and I doubt I will again because why should it fucking matter, but I actually am gay and I feel like I can offer insight and perspective into this matter

    But away from the Loras thing for a while:

    Hodor’s Bastard: Do you ever get the feeling that GRRM wrote the RV as a wild, intensely passionate personal fantasy and alter ego of his, exploring the nuances and implied freedom of bi-sexuality, then quickly killed him off after feeling guilty about it? Just wondering… :) I would love to explore GRRM’s mind via the “Being John Malkovich” technique.

    Holy shit yes, I’ve never thought of that!

    Also, I think it would be good for the RV to participate in a brothel scene with Ellaria and a man, not just to establish that this dangerous fighter and talker is also sexually dangerous, but to establish the freedom and difference of Dorne.
    A high born male arrives, he brings his 1) paramour not wife 2) who is a bastard 3) who he loves and has a beautiful relationship with 4) treats her equally to a man in power terms 5) they have sex with men and women to demonstrate sexual freedom

    Okay back to Loras. The character of Loras is hot headed, brash, proud, arrogant, overly-passionate and because of these he has a complete armour fou with Renly – all consuming, passionate love. They took this away when they made him be a whiney bitch for most of their relationship scenes, they took this away when his reaction to Renly dying was crying instead of killing people, they took this away by being a weak stepping stone for other KL characters.
    Instead D&D actively made the change, as in they discussed in a boardroom why this would be such a good idea, to his character to make him into the gay stereotype of 90s/00s media. They took a person made by GRRM, and made him into a none person who is just a stereotype. They made him obsessed with fashion and gowns and balls(hah, not like that), when in reality he was pretty absent minded to things that weren’t love and fighting. They made him have sex with a stranger just to satisfy the HBO execs need for gay sex when someone depressed from coming out of an armour fou would never. it’s not the fact that someone wouldn’t have sex after a break up, it’s the fact that they had armour fou and Loras was 400% in-over-his-head passionate. The gay jokes are okay, keep them they’re funny, but he needs content to balance it out.

    Unlike other people I agree with on the subject like Hodor’s Bastard who have hope that they’ll restore his character in future, I have no hope. They could have went any direction after Season 2, but Season 3 showed the direction they’re going with his character. I see no way his character could be motivated to take Dragonstone.

    However saying that I look forward to:
    How Cersei will get out of her marriage to him
    Hopefully confronting Brienne – he still has some motivation “you left! you loved him and you ran away!?!?!”
    Him being Tommen’s idol

    The Nose: Plot twist: Loras is the Tyrell Oberyn will make a cripple.

    I found this funnier than I should have.

  124. House Mormont
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    *winces and cringes at ignorance*

    PattonFiend: PattonFiend
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 9:02 am | Permalink
    Disgusting… The only issue with this show…

    I hate having to fast-forward through GoT because of f@gg0ts “making love.”

    loki: loki
    Posted January 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink
    If there’s no gay sex, it truly might be the best season yet.

    1) If I have to look at 18 vaginas a season and 1 close up of a contortionist vagina I’m sure you can cope with men kissing, the only bad scene was the gratuitous suck-job of Season 1 which was pretty sickening imo

    2) If you’re completely okay with sex-torture-castration scenes and not okay with this then damn u fucked up

  125. House Mormont
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    I don’t think GRRM played them safe. Look at Lyn Corbray, Littlefinger bought his alliance with men and money. Jon Con also wasn’t really around someone else to love after Rhaegar, he was looking after Aegon on the pole boat.

  126. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    @ PattonFiend

    I hate having to fast-forward through GoT because of f@gg0ts “making love.”

    I feel for you. You poor oppressed soul.
    I usually just do this with the violent scenes but to each their own, right?

    @ Satin


    Jon Connington is even worse, since he’s only ever been pining for Rhaegar, and ADWD is from 2011.

    JonCon is indeed horrible. He sounds like a 12 year old girl not like a gay dude in his forties. Makes me feel not so bad anymore that GRRM seems piss-pants afraid of actually writing m/m stuff into his books.

    @ Greenjones

    I just hope there’s no blowback for his making that remark.

    There totally should be. That was really insulting towards German 70s porn! *tongue firmly in cheek*

  127. Drfunk
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Why are we even debating about Loras’s sexuality? It’s something that’s hinted in the books that was shoved in people’s faces in the show. How is that even relevant to WHY his “flirtations” could be the RV? Book Loras was way more vain and arrogant but at least he believed about the ideals of the knighthood. In that regard he was just as naive if not more so than Ned. Show Loras on the other hand inherited this political sass that Renly possessed and on top of that gave him the ambition to play politics. Is it a terrible change? Not really. As long as there’s plausible explanation to the narrative changes, everything is ok (even if purists don’t like them).

    That said:

    1. It is established that Loras’s brother was crippled as per the book.
    2. Mace and RV will bump heads in KL.
    3. The hostility Mace shows towards RV will be explained by #1
    4. Loras shouldn’t be flirting with the Viper not because he’s a kingsguard that values his vow of celibacy. Loras shouldn’t be hanging with the Viper because he should HATE the Martells for his brother’s incident. Or at the least have initial prejudice that would prevent him from banging the RV with his eyes.

    This is why I’m saying from a logical standpoint, w/e random gay sex scene they include or not for Loras should be anyone BUT the RV. However, from the showrunner standpoints it seems they’d rather toss subtlety out the window and make it as plain as possible. So if the RV is bi, the best way for them to introduce that aspect would be for him to bang Loras. At least from the RV’s perspective he believes the leg incident was accidental, and he likes to bang pretty things. Doesn’t mean it works the other way around.

    Also, the BI aspect is a very small part of his story that frankly has nothing to do with the character. That’s not why he was brought to the narrative and certainly not why he’s introduced as one of the key characters of S4. It’s not being prudish about hetero/gay sex, it’s getting annoyed at seeing content that serves no purpose to the story and taking valuable minutes out of the episode.

  128. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Instead D&D actively made the change, as in they discussed in a boardroom why this would be such a good idea, to his character to make him into the gay stereotype of 90s/00s media.

    Eh, I think, you give their thought process way too much credit here. I think it went like this.

    “We need the Lannisters to find out about the Loras/Sansa plot.”
    “In the book Sansa blabs but we can’t do this, we’d never hear the end from the Sansa fans.”
    “Hey, so why not let Loras blab, I mean nobody cares about that character, right?”
    “Brilliant. And lets make a m/m scene out of this too, while we’re at it.

    Well, that’s it for the Olyvar stuff. What went through D&D’s head when they wrote that Sansa-Loras abomination, I’m afraid, I have no idea.

    However saying that I look forward to:
    How Cersei will get out of her marriage to him
    Hopefully confronting Brienne – he still has some motivation “you left! you loved him and you ran away!?!?!”
    Him being Tommen’s idol

    I think the betrothal will just fall apart after Joff’s death.
    Sorry, but from the few season 4 leaks it seems very likely that this confrontation will be between Brienne and Margaery on the show (and Olenna, can you imagine? “Gods, another dumbass in love with Renly? I’ll go get my figs.”).
    If there is no Tommen-Loras worship I’ll riot!

  129. Abyss
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    I don’t know, I always find such comments a bit unnecessary. Everybody should be free to say what ever he wants, that goes without saying, but let’s not forget that the show is paying him money to do his job and part of this job is to promote it, not to speak ill of it.

  130. Jordan
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Drfunk,

    Regarding your post, I’m thinking/hoping that this is how it goes down:

    I think it is important to give indication of Oberyn and Ellaria’s bisexuality/open relationship, and while I’m not big on gratuitous nudity, revealing that in a brothel scene is kind of a scene that writes itself, especially because Oberyn does speak of visiting a high class brothel in the books.

    However, even with Willas being cut (at least as Loras’ brother), I would not be pleased with the idea of Loras flirting with Oberyn/the two having a friendly relationship- the two families have hated each other for centuries, and Loras is still a somewhat prickly character on the show and I expect Oberyn to be likewise.

    So, I tend to think/hope that the flirtation Finn is talking about is something along the lines of Oberyn messing with Loras. I do not expect and do not want to see the two as buddies.

    Incidentally, I wondered if perhaps we are all offbase and the new character being flirted with is that Lord Blackmont- and the character is a composite with Daemon Sand (which would actually make a lot of sense given the parallels between Loras/Renly and Daemon/Oberyn).

  131. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Drfunk:
    Book Loras was way more vain and arrogant but at least he believed about the ideals of the knighthood. In that regard he was just as naive if not more so than Ned. Show Loras on the other hand inherited this political sass that Renly possessed and on top of that gave him the ambition to play politics.

    I don’t quite get the “show Loras” comment. Political sass? Playing politics? Maybe it will come forth in S4 but other than his knightly tourney and Blackwater battle activities, I haven’t detected any political savviness or political sassiness in “show Loras”. He seems to be the one being manipulated, imo.

    1. It is established that Loras’s brother was crippled as per the book.

    Did you mean to say “will be established”? This past fall, GRRM pointed out that the lack of Willas in the show will cause problems down the line.

  132. Jordan
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    That reminded me of something I wanted to comment. I certainly think book!Loras believed in the ideals of knighthood, but I have no reason to think show!Loras doesn’t.

    However, I don’t really see book!Loras’ decision to join the kingsguard as a totally pure gesture (which is part of why I wouldn’t see it as a stretch for show!Loras to either). Yes, ideals of knighthood had something to do with it as did love for Renly, but so to did the fact that if you are gay in a society that’s taboo, and you don’t want to get married, the best thing to do is to join a (supposedly) celibate order of knights.

    Edit- OT, but why is Mark Gatiss’ role still identified on the Poll at the botom of the screen?

  133. House Mormont
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    zambi76,

    Why would the betrothal fall apart with Tywin still around? He didn’t think it was the Tyrells? And it’ll just reinstate his urgency to marry the entire realm into a new Lannister rule before he dies right

    But oh god a scene with Brienne and the Queen of Thorns would be amazing, wait is that why there were set pictures of the two of them together? I can’t wait for the disdain and puns

  134. Drfunk
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    The problem with this medium as highlighted with Robb in S2, is that these actors need screen time. So for Loras to have screen time there needs to be a purpose. I’m hoping that his whole arc involves with his encounter with Brienne and the betrothal shenanigans.

    You’re also correct that a classic brothel scene could be the best way to introduce his bi inclination. I’d bet on a Tyrion paying visit to RV in a brothel scene, just so D&D can troll us further with more “sexposition” on RV’s background.

  135. House Mormont
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Slightly OT: Do you think the show will keep Lady Olenna in KL to spice things up in Season 5 rather have her go back to Highgarden? Or maybe it’s important that Mace and Margaery are on their own without her guidance

  136. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Why would the betrothal fall apart with Tywin still around? He didn’t think it was the Tyrells? And it’ll just reinstate his urgency to marry the entire realm into a new Lannister rule before he dies right

    Well, how does Tyrion put it in the trailer: “Things are a bit tense right now.”

    I think Tywin will be plenty busy with other stuff, than that particulary stand-off with a mourning Cersei. Another possibility that came to my mind is that Mace will want the betrothal called off in exchange for letting Tyrion take the Black.

    ETA: Olenna should be in a good part of season 5 anyway. Dancing Throwing shade at Tywin’s funeral and Marg’s third wedding.

  137. Drfunk
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Book Renly was Jaime with a better fashion sense. He oozed confidence and that’s how he won people over with his charisma. Show Renly was being shown to not being that way until Loras gave him the confidence to act the part. Book Loras was never obsessed at “playing the game”, he was just an arrogant kid that knew he was a prodigy. He was also very naive about the ideals of the knighthood.. Sansa’s fantasy knight in shining armor except the orientation.

    Show Loras, seemed to be a lot more calculative with the pursuit of power almost like his sister. Though these scenes were very limited they are a vast contrast to the source material. So yeah he might not be smart enough to play the game, but at least he knows the game and isn’t ignoring it.

    As for establishing it, Sansa thought it was Loras until they told her about Willas.

  138. House Mormont
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    zambi76,

    I don’t think “things are a bit tense right now” was to do with the political relations of King’s Landing nobles… I think it was to do with being on trial for regicide and kinslaying, he was in a cell in the trailer
    And won’t Mace have to be the one that suggests death from the beginning? Oberyn wants him alive and Tywin might need a tiny pinch of persuading (not much)

    A Tywin, Mace, and Oberyn arguing over the case scene would be amazing though

  139. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Drfunk:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    As for establishing it, Sansa thought it was Loras until they told her about Willas.

    Yes, but that comment can only apply to book Loras/Sansa, not show Loras/Sansa. In your original list, it implied you were mixing things up. If you were just pointing out things in the books that needed to be translated to the screen, then I understand it better.

  140. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Edit- OT, but why is Mark Gatiss’ role still not identified on the Poll at the bottom of the screen?

    Yeah…every few weeks I ask WinterPhil that same question, but with no response.

  141. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    That would be amazing, she is the coolest grandmother ever, so of course she should look out for her grandchildren (which it seems have been established as just Loras and Margaery) so there’s no reason why she shouldn’t leave for Highgarden. Mace will probably go back to Storm’s End regardless of what she says, its’ not like he really pays much attention to her anyway.

    But Diana Rigg probably doesn’t come cheap though, so I only expect to see her in maybe 3 or 4 episodes this season, mostly in the first half.

    It’s odd though, every season a new Tyrell is introduced, but just one. So could Garlan or Willas find their way into later seasons (not necessarily 5 or 6)? We’ve yet to get a Highgarden viewpoint character in the books after all.

  142. Winter Is Coming
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Yeah…every few weeks I ask WinterPhil that same question, but with no response.

    Just for you, I’ve added a new poll question.

  143. Mursk
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    If they add a flirtatious scene between Oberyn and Loras it’ll be the worst additional scene yet. The Martells entering the game in King’s Landing is supposed to be disruptive. The Lannisters and Tyrells can get alone well enough, especially with a marriage joining their houses. But the Martells are supposed to be a pain in both of their asses. On the list of who should Loras flirt with, I’d put Oberyn at the bottom.

    That means I’d rather see Loras flirt with Gregor than see him make eyes at Oberyn. I’d rather see Loras flirt with Mace than see him give a nod to Oberyn. I’d rather see…well you get the idea.

    It would be worse than all of the Ros scenes combined. That bad. Get in your fallout shelter and eat your canned peaches bad.

    What’s next? Sam receives a letter from his father:

    “Hope you’re doing well at the Wall. Your mom and me are really proud of you, son. Love, Papa.”

  144. Jentario
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Taena,

    To be fair, the only really graphic sex scene in season 3 was between Melisandre and Gendry. Also, I personally would rather get ALL the graphic sex scenes to a minimum, gay or not gay. Season 3 did a much better job in that respect than seasons 1 & 2 which often felt like porn (that whorehouse scene in season 2, for instance).

  145. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    Hah! You have evaded answering the question again! :)

  146. Turri
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Ah, so many ways to play out all those KL characters against each other, it will be lots of fun. Let’s do a quick count:
    Sansa, Joffrey, Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Bronn, Varys, Shae, Margaery, Loras, Olenna, Pycelle, Qyburn, Tommen, Ellaria, Meryn, Oberyn, Gregor, Blackmont, Dontos, Mace, Brienne, Podrick make for 24 confirmed roles, plus several male and female whores, singers, cheese boys etc.
    And we can possibly add: Tycho, Roose, Walda, Kevan, Ilyn, Lancel, Gendry, Littlefinger.

    Let’s get the drama started.

  147. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming,

    I miss “I pirate it and buy the DVDs later” as an option.

  148. Zeus
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Loras is such a minor character. He has what ten lines in the books? Relax

  149. cosca
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Mursk,

    What ridiculous hyperbole. The only Tyrell that has shown any significant dislike of the Martells in the books is Mace. Willas and Oberyn are pretty friendly. I think the rivalry is overstated, despite historical context.
    In no way is it even close to your example.

  150. Jen@House Stark
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    I think the sexual aspect in GOT goes deeper (no pun intended!!) than porn. It’s power, control, love, hate, fear. Yes, there is some gratuitous sex in the HBO version. However, what good show/program out there now does not have some? IMHO, it takes nothing away from the show or books.

  151. Red Hound
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    kurozukin: “No one should impose their personal standards of morality on others; therefore, it’s fine to call someone a slut for having sex!” Sorry, what? I think there’s some error in logic here.

    Of course there’s an error in the logic, as you used a straw man argument, by putting words in my mouth.

    I never said that it was “fine”, or if you want it, “not fine”, to call someone a slut or not. I just expressed that things like right and wrong are subjective and that the word problematic attempts to turn an opinion into a fact.

  152. cosca
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    Well duh it’s my opinion, It’s pretty damn implicit that anything I say is an opinion. What purpose does pointing this out serve, other than to derail discussion? Do I need to put “IMO” in everything?

  153. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Loras is such a minor character. He has what ten lines in the books? Relax

    I’ll never get the folks who post stuff like this (i.e. “Who the fuck cares?”"Loras who?”) after people already have more than shown in a discussion that they care and know perfectly well who Loras (or whoever) is. Ten lines (what’s the opposite of hyperbole?) or not.

    I also fear for the health of the folks that count on some big Tyrell-Martell enemity on the show as I don’t think it’s gonna happen. Even in the books it’s mostly Mace being bitchy and Olenna insulting Ellaria (and who doesn’t she insult).

  154. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    What if it is the Red Viper who jokingly flirts with Loras and Loras rebuffs him? That seems like something that could happen.

  155. Jordan
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    That’s basically what I expect/hope happens (which is also not to rule out a brothel scene where Oberyn talks with Tyrion).

    One slight worry I have is the show has taken some flack because of the presentation that everyone (except Sansa) knows Loras is gay. So, if Oberyn does flirt with Loras, it would probably be better if he did so unaware of Loras’ sexuality (or else, there should be a good reason why he would know of Loras’ sexuality).

  156. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    …everyone (except Sansa) knows Loras is gay.

    Ugh! ….don’t get me started…. :)

  157. Ed
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Jeeesssssuussss CCCChhhrrrrrriiiiiissssstttt….

    You guys never fail to amaze.

  158. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    So, if Oberyn does flirt with Loras, it would probably be better if he did so unaware of Loras’ sexuality

    To be fair Oberyn is one of the (not quite so many) people who knows about Loras and Renly in the books too (“Renly’s little rose?”). Jaime and Cersei know, Varys and Littlefinger know, word of God says all Tyrells know, Stannis knows. Only important people who know in the show but not in the books are Shae and Tyrion I think. Oh, and Tywin now because Olenna told him. And Joff because Marg told him. And Brienne because Jaime told her. Godsdamn gossipping courtiers. :o) The last ones are a bit strange, I’ll give you that.

  159. Red Hound
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    cosca:
    Red Hound,

    Well duh it’s my opinion, It’s pretty damn implicit that anything I say is an opinion. What purpose does pointing this out serve, other than to derail discussion? Do I need to put “IMO” in everything?

    If it was so implicit, it wouldn’t have sounded like it did :

    1. He doesn’t even fit the general description of a “slut”. He slept with one man.

    2. The term “slut” itself is problematic, but yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex with multiple partners. Shaming people for enjoying sex is wrong.

    The way you expressed it, you are defining things and deciding what’s right or wrong, presenting opinions as facts. Using the world “problematic” was just icing on the cake.

  160. cosca
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    That’s because it’s less wishy washy sounding, and shows conviction. It’s obviously an opinion, regardless of tone. It’s just a waste of time. Obviously right and wrong is subjective, that’s basic shit that doesn’t even need pointing out.

    “2. I believe he term “slut” itself is problematic, but yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex with multiple partners in my honest opinion. I also believe shaming people for enjoying sex is wrong.”

    What the hell has changed by me saying this, other than tone? Nothing, making it a pointless criticism to make. I’ve still put forward the same argument.

  161. Mursk
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    What ridiculous hyperbole. The only Tyrell that has shown any significant dislike of the Martells in the books is Mace. Willas and Oberyn are pretty friendly. I think the rivalry is overstated, despite historical context.
    In no way is it even close to your example.

    So let me get this straight, those of us who are under the impression that there is some bad blood between the Tyrells and Martells are overstating it but you feel that Oberyn commenting about writing Willas letters or some such means that there is plenty of evidence that the two families have no rivalry or beef with each other?

    I have to be honest, I don’t see where your evidence is any more substantial than our evidence. It’s not like there is chapter after chapter of Oberyn and Willas hanging out. If we came to the conclusion that the Tyrells and Martells have a problem with each other, we came to that conclusion for a reason. Right?

    Nevermind, your stance is already boring me. “Hey everyone, King’s Landing is perfectly fine. The Lannisters, Tyrells, and Martells are all friends. Willas doesn’t even exist so how could there be any hard feelings? Let’s all cuddle.” Action packed.

  162. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    TheBerylfly,

    What scenes are we missing out on that were in the book. he didnt really every have that much and they were mostly at the end of Storm and in Feast. And I dont recall all that many scenes of him grieving. Most of them wouldnt even be in the show til this or next season

  163. cosca
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Mursk,

    All I’m saying is that there’s not a hell of a lot of evidence that they hate each other at this time in the books either, and certainly none to suggest that Loras bears any animosity towards the Martells. If GRRM wanted to show us the bad blood, he could have shown a hell of a lot more than just Mace (who happens to be a complete buffoon) showing his hatred, and Lady Olenna making a comment. We’ve had nothing from Margaery, Loras, Garlan and the various cousins.

    Never said that Oberyn and Willas were best buds as you seem to be saying I did, just that they’re on friendly terms. Yes, there is evidence to suggest animosity between the families, but you make it sound like Loras would rather die than even talk with Oberyn in the book, which there is no evidence for.

    “Nevermind, your stance is already boring me”
    Sorry for wasting your valuable time, you’re so clearly busy.

    Hey everyone, King’s Landing is perfectly fine. The Lannisters, Tyrells, and Martells are all friends. Willas doesn’t even exist so how could there be any hard feelings? Let’s all cuddle

    What the hell is this garbage? Where have I even mentioned the Lannisters? I never said the Tyrells and Martells were friends, just that most of the Tyrell family members don’t seem all that into this historic feud. People get over feuds, particularly when there’s no recent reminder (as there won’t be in the show because no Willas).

  164. Satin
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    Satin,

    I don’t think GRRM played them safe. Look at Lyn Corbray, Littlefinger bought his alliance with men and money. Jon Con also wasn’t really around someone else to love after Rhaegar, he was looking after Aegon on the pole boat.

    But how is that not playing them safe? Lyn Corbray is a tiny minor character (and I’ve seen the suspicion that he has pedophile leanings since Sweetrobin is afraid of him which, if true, would be a very negative stereotype). And Jon Connington, whom GRRM has talked about as a gay character, is basically celibate. That’s one dead gay guy, two celibate gay guys, one very minor character with dubious leanings, whatever the hell the Blackfish is, and Oberyn, who is fun, but a raging cliche of a bisexual character.

    For a series that isn’t very shy about showing sexuality as part of people’s lives, the queer characters are predominantly shown as oddly sexless. Add to that the male rapes we are told about, and it becomes an ugly bias that all gay sex is somehow bad. Not that I think GRRM means it that way – Loras, Jon Connington and the Blackfish are definitely more positive than negative, and even Renly isn’t that horrible for his family. But they are not exactly treated as equal to the other male characters in their sexuality, either.

  165. Red Hound
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    cosca:
    Red Hound,

    That’s because it’s less wishy washy sounding, and shows conviction. It’s obviously an opinion, regardless of tone. It’s just a waste of time. Obviously right and wrong is subjective, that’s basic shit that doesn’t even need pointing out.

    “2. I believe he term “slut” itself is problematic, but yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex with multiple partners in my honest opinion. I also believe shaming people for enjoying sex is wrong.”

    What the hell has changed by me saying this, other than tone? Nothing, making it a pointless criticism to make. I’ve still put forward the same argument.

    It changes a lot, as you are speaking exclusively about what you feel and think, instead of trying to paint opinions as facts. It really sounds much better, I hope you can also see it.

  166. Satin
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    GG: Satin
    That’s not the point. The point is that they’ve totally underplayed the most important gay relationship in the books and they’ve turned him into a bumbling idiot who would blurt out to the first guy he shags that he’s going to marry Sansa Stark. The problem isn’t that he’s having sex(for me, at least). The problem is that the show makes it look like Renly mattered less than he actually did.

    I don’t think they underplayed it if the show was the first time some readers even noticed these two were a couple. It’s kind of what I mean – I don’t think the show does great with their queer representation, but the books virtually have none in the first place.

    Giving Loras a couple of sentences that show he still misses Renly would go a long way, I agree.

  167. Azzy Mahmood
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    He’s supposed to be in perpetual celibate mourning after Renly’s death cause that was his one love, but no, we need hamfisted gay sex cause they’re desperate for the scandal.

    I freaking hate what they’ve done with this character in the show.

    Same here, book Loras was one of my favourite characters, on the show he’s a juvenile + immature wrecking ball of emotion. Played very well, but very poorly written compared to how he could have been dramatised. A real lost opportunity for our Knight of Flowers.

  168. zambi76
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    a juvenile + immature wrecking ball of emotion.

    Sounds like Loras to me alright. I don’t even mind the whiny and bitchy parts with Renly. The problem is there is no real explanation for him being all this on the show plus nothing to positively contrast with like in the books.

    I too found it hilarious when Cogman said their Loras was more mature and less naive because older and stuff: Whut? (Oh, he was probably still talking about season 1.) The Loras (in his twenties?) on the show acts more like a seventeen year old than the one who actually is that age in the books. When he asks Olyvar “how he knew?” it gives me the creeps because he sounds about 12 to me there. But maybe that was the point (being taken advantage of by Petyr’s whore).

  169. cosca
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Azzy Mahmood,

    I don’t see how he’s wrecking ball of emotion. He’s only really been emotional in Season 2, for maybe two scenes. Most of the time he’s been fairly flat. Immature yes, he does come off as petulant.

  170. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Wow. This thread…

  171. Cary Storm
    Posted January 16, 2014 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga,

    I know, it’s a lively and wonderful discussion!

  172. Uther Greenshirt
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    I love Finn Jones and cant wait to see more of him, I like the balance of elegant rage/passion he displays so well. A scene between Him and RV will/would be filled with different level and type of tension almost love/hate. Brilliant. Finn you are awesome!

  173. zambi76
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Talking about “wrecking balls”, Finn is totally a wrecking ball of energy, he makes me dizzy just by following stuff about him on the internet. I’m a hermit very introverted person and he seems to be the exact opposite, still I’m loving it. Somewhat embarrassing though to have a celeb crush on someone who could almost be your son (thought it was just yesterday that all my celeb crushes were old enough to be my father *sigh*).

  174. Annara Snow
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Satin: But how is that not playing them safe? Lyn Corbray is a tiny minor character (and I’ve seen the suspicion that he has pedophile leanings since Sweetrobin is afraid of him which, if true, would be a very negative stereotype). And Jon Connington, whom GRRM has talked about as a gay character, is basically celibate. That’s one dead gay guy, two celibate gay guys, one very minor character with dubious leanings, whatever the hell the Blackfish is, and Oberyn, who is fun, but a raging cliche of a bisexual character.

    For a series that isn’t very shy about showing sexuality as part of people’s lives, the queer characters are predominantly shown as oddly sexless. Add to that the male rapes we are told about, and it becomes an ugly bias that all gay sex is somehow bad. Not that I think GRRM means it that way – Loras, Jon Connington and the Blackfish are definitely more positive than negative, and even Renly isn’t that horrible for his family. But they are not exactly treated as equal to the other male characters in their sexuality, either.

    How is Lyn Corbrey being a pedophile a “negative stereotype”? A stereotype of what? Pedophiles? Some pedophiles have a preference for boys, and i’s not like there are only pedophiles who like boys in the books. Rorge is pretty openly a pedophile rapist who likes to rape little girls.

    Lyn Corbrey being gay is just an interpretation of some readers; in the books, there is no indication that he likes men. Littlefinger says he likes boys. Now, that is perhaps ambiguous, since the word “boys” could be used for older teenagers,Robb’s or Jon Snow’s age, but it can also be used for male children. But judging by the hint of Sweetrobin being afraid of him, and other sinister impressions about him (Sansa immediately finds something creepy and untrustworthy about him) I think it’s strongly hinted that he’s a pedophile. It also confirms the levels of LF’s immorality and creepiness, that he is regularly pimping out children, but we know what he did to Jeyne Poole, so that’s no surprise and is in character.

  175. tysnow
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Turri,

    This is what makes D&D’s adaption so entertaining, they concentrate on KL more than the other arcs, they know what the casual viewer wants.
    I’d like D&D to freak out book fans and show a three way between Loras, Oberyn and Ellia, sorta of the RV giving Loras tips on how to please Cersei, getting him prepped for his upcoming bedding.

  176. What would Sansa do
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    I actually think Loras very much could be interested in clothes and wedding stuff. Loras seem to put more thought into the design of his armor and sword than others, I actually do think he would like to have a beautiful wedding. However, it doesn’t mean he can’t be interested in being a knight and jousting or whatever. He can do both, I just hope they show more of the “passionated about knighthood”-Loras now, and him being more cranky and acting like a child haha.

    Though it is pointed out that there’s some tension between Oberyn and the Tyrells, nothing is at it seems when it comes to asoiaf so it could be possible for them to have some sort of flirtation.
    And it would be so cool if they were plotting with the Martells against the Lannisters or helping the Targaryens to the throne…or basically anything

  177. monsieurxander
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Podrick had an entire sexual subplot added into the show. Bronn speaks into a woman’s vagina. Ramsay gets two prostitute sidekicks, who give Theon a handy before the violence happens. Missandei, a child in the books, wears her tits out constantly, while we see Osha sleep around, full frontal. Plenty of changes regarding sex.

    But a gay man enjoying sex, once, briefly? SCANDAL!

  178. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: How is Lyn Corbrey being a pedophile a “negative stereotype”? A stereotype of what? Pedophiles? Some pedophiles have a preference for boys, and i’s not like there are only pedophiles who like boys in the books. Rorge is pretty openly a pedophile rapist who likes to rape little girls.

    Lyn Corbrey being gay is just an interpretation of some readers; in the books, there is no indication that he likes men. Littlefinger says he likes boys. Now, that is perhaps ambiguous, since the word “boys” could be used for older teenagers,Robb’s orJon Snow’s age, but it can also be used for male children. But judging by the hint of Sweetrobin beingafraid of him, and other sinister impressions about him (Sansa immediately finds something creepy and untrustworthy about him) I think it’s strongly hinted that he’s a pedophile. It also confirms the levels of LF’s immorality and creepiness, that he is regularly pimping out children, but we know what he did to Jeyne Poole, so that’s no surprise and is in character.

    One could argue that there is a bit of a problem with pedophilia and statutory rape throughout Westeros. The whole populace of the 7 kingdoms needs therapy, imho. However, back in context, I’m with “show Ros”…I don’t trust a single thing that LF says to Sansa regarding any character in the Vale. It’s all about manipulation for his benefit. We’ll see in TWoW what actual vileness Sansa is exposed to (and how she handles it)….maybe even taking matters into her own hands for once.

  179. Rygar
    Posted January 17, 2014 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Wait a gosh tarn minute! Loras is gay? I just thought he was a wingman and shaved Renlys chest for him Because that’s what best friends do?

  180. Randa
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    The shade of it all!

    Summer is Coming is spot on how they coulda/shoulda wrote in Willis instead of making Loras heir. But, maybe there’s a younger Tyrell sibling waiting to be introduced? Because I’m pretty sure after a certain crossbow strum, Cersei will take care of that whole engagement business by putting Loras in the KG.

    And if not replacing Marillion, I could see Olyvar taking on the role of the Kettleblacks ala Ros taking on the role of the KL Madames. He could be a bi spy.

  181. zambi76
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    But, maybe there’s a younger Tyrell sibling waiting to be introduced?

    Would have to be a pretty young, as in not born yet male Tyrell, since Tywin said Marg is next in line after Loras. Not sure if they can get away with a (forty-something?) Allerie giving birth again. IMHO if they need another male Tyrell later, they’ll have to make him Mace’s younger brother now (something he doesn’t have in the books but whatever) since that’s the only way Tywin wasn’t just talking nonsense in the scene with Olenna. (Even then it’s still strange that he said the Tyrell name will die out without Loras because that kinda implies they have no males anywhere.)

  182. Randa
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    I must have missed where they established Marg was next…ah well.

  183. Hodoreo
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    My god, the showrunners absolutely fucking suck. ”When the sun has set, no candle can replace it”. They should just let me run the damn thing. They have absolutely butchered Loras’ character.

  184. LordNoga1981
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Chysko Ikana,

    Thats not true at all. He has gout. Look it up. Oberyn used poison in a duel when he was younger and killed some lord. Hence his name the Red Viper of Dorne

  185. House Mormont
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    LordNoga1981,

    He meant Oberyn crippled Loras’ older brother, not his own.

    Annara Snow,

    oh my god what I never even picked up the whole paedophile thing when I read aFfC, this blew my mind. I guess I needa re-read

  186. Satin
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    How is Lyn Corbrey being a pedophile a “negative stereotype”? A stereotype of what?

    There’s a homophobic stereotype connecting (mostly male) homosexuality and pedophilia. I think Corbray was brought up against my claim that GRRM plays it very safe regarding gay characters – by which I mean, if you want to, you can safely ignore that they’re gay, or – heavens! – have sex with other men. I found that argument troubling because it is a very negative stereotype that exists both in literature and in real life, and it was definitely not the connotation to “playing it safe” that I was talking about.

  187. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Satin:
    Annara Snow,
    There’s a homophobic stereotype connecting (mostly male) homosexuality and pedophilia….

    Funny….Russian President Putin said a similar thing this past week regarding “gays” atttending the Olympics. The news paraphrased him as stating that “gays are welcome at Sochi as long as they stay away from the children.” WTF? Complete psycho-babble bullshit, heavy on an ultra-conservative agenda. Sounds like something LF would whisper to the Vale folk, to his own benefit.

    But, yes, GRRM does let the reader draw their own conclusions regarding both homosexuality and predatorial behavior within the kingdoms. I assume we’ll find out more about Mr. Corbray in TWoW.

  188. B
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think they are talking about Martell at all. They are probably referring to the blond he messed around with briefly last season. He is most likely going to continue being a spy for LF even though LF is going away. That’s just my thought.

  189. Elenar
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    I don’t like that they took out the element of Loras’s devotion to Renly after his death, because I always felt that that’s what made Loras unique in the series. I would have preferred it if they had built up that relationship and dealt with Loras’s grief. Without that, Loras just sort of comes across as hanging around for no reason.

    I get the desire to have more screen time and sex scenes for gay characters, (which sort of begs the question as to why they decided to make Xaro Xhoan Daxos straight and then kill him) but I just feel like it makes Loras less interesting.

    But I guess I can also see how they would consider it a waste to go the vast majority of the series with Finn Jones being celibate, haha.

  190. Patchy Face
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Has anyone else seen the new On the Set S4 – it’s over on HBO.com if you want to take a look – some great new scene shots and actor interviews

  191. Dogs
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Patchy Face,

    Whoah whoah whoah. There’s one shot that looks like STANNIS and DAVOS will be going to Braavos to meet with the Iron Bank. At 1:24, on the HBO website.

  192. Greenjones
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    As I had hoped, this season we will see Tywin sit the Iron Throne. http://postimg.org/image/v3pyf6iqx/full/

  193. Greenjones
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Dogs,

    HERE! http://postimg.org/image/btpw3slnj/full/ Such an awesome book deviation!

  194. Elenar
    Posted January 18, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I think book!Loras joined the Kingsguard to protect Marg, since they had gotten Sansa to confirm that Joffrey was a cruel psycho. It didn’t bother him to give up everything because he only wanted Renly anyway.

  195. Marillion
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Two men sat a-kissing upon a mount of hey
    hey-nonny, hey-nonny, hey-nonny-hey..


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