New casting for Theon’s storyline
By Ours is the Fury on in Casting, Speculation.

grahame-foxIt looks as though Game of Thrones will be dipping further into A Dance with Dragons territory for Theon Greyjoy this year. This will come as little surprise to fans, since fourth season casting for other storylines (such as Dany and Bran’s) included characters not encountered until the fifth book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

According to the CV of British actor Grahame Fox, he’ll be playing the role of Kenning in an upcoming episode directed by Alex Graves. In the novel, Ralf Kenning is an Ironborn captain stationed at Moat Cailin, in a very tense situation. Whether the same stronghold will figure in the show, or if Theon will encounter the captain and his men somewhere else is yet to be determined.

Fox has appeared on programs such as Casualty, Atlantis, Midsomer Murders, and Merlin.

Ours is the Fury: It’s no shock they need to take material from ADWD for Theon, more than anyone else, since he disappears from the books for quite a while and they’ve already spent an entire season filling in the blanks of what happened in that time. It does bring up the question, though, will there be enough material for Theon for next year, if The Winds of Winter isn’t released?


415 Comments

  1. nomisum
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    hodor..

  2. Summer is Coming
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    the question is how much will they take from ADwD… the storylines are beginning to diverge very much from the one timeline. Things that should happen at the same time, happen earlier or later…

  3. Tenesmus
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Hodor!

  4. Michel
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    I wonder if Moat Cailin storyline will occupy the hole season or we will get to Winterfell yet on Season 4

  5. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Ho-mofo-dor!

    We’re getting closer to Victarion!

  6. Rygar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    As long as they keep the torture porn new and exciting.

  7. AA
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    He could also just be interacting with Yara instead of Theon this season

  8. Michel
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    The show is gonna be very unbalanced in the future, while in season 6 some characters like Bran and Theon will be probably having material from Winds or even the last book, some character like Jon and KL plot will still be in Feast/Dance

  9. UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Interesting!

  10. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    What it appears like to me is that they’re dipping into Theon’s first 2 chapters of ADwD. He gets cleaned up and sent by Ramsay to Moat Cailin (after I’m guessing some shenanigans at the Dreadfort in the 1st half of the season), secures the Ironborn surrender and then he and Ramsay meet up with Roose as he marches North.

    While they might discuss the ultimate destination to be Winterfell, I highly doubt they actually get to Winterfell this season which is really where the bulk of Theon’s ADwD stuff is. They’ll leave that for S5.

    This is pretty consistent with what we know of a few other storylines like Bran’s, Dany’s and Brienne’s where material after ASoS is covered but probably not much more than a chapter or two.

  11. Michel
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Off topic: Does anyone knows if Gendry will appears these season, and if so, wtf will he be doing?

  12. Rygar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Hmmm another Brit playing an Ironborn?

    *Smiles at Velty* sorry but I really tried to hold back. :)

  13. WE DO NOT SOW
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Ironborn culture is very interesting one, all I can say is I hope they will show it in 5th season in its full spectre.

  14. Bowl of Brown
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Theon’s arc has a lot of potential. In the absence of a POV character in the North (excluding Jon and Bran, since they are at the Wall right now), most of what we know about the new Warden of the North bringing the rest of the North to heel prior to ADWD has been secondhand information. I’d be very interested to see how Ramsay/Roose deal with the other noble houses of the North, particularly one very large lord from White Harbor. At the very least, it gives Theon (and Ramsay) more to do than spend more lazy Sundays in Ramsay’s Dungeon of Hugs and Snuggles.

    Plus, it’s hard to argue against having more Roose on the Loose!

  15. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    I’m glad they’re not cutting it out.

  16. ATG
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    For a moment there I misread the title as ‘New Casting for Theon Greyjoy” and I almost had a heart attack thinking they might have recast Alfie Allen.

  17. Blunted
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Now give us Barbrey Dustin!!

  18. Jacarb
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    I’m sure Theon will have loads of season 5 material. As King Tommen pointed out, Theon still has plenty to do at Winterfell. Also, any chance to hear more about Crannogmen!

    I like the “added” storylines being expanded bits from the books. Not only will it preserve the overall story more soundly, but it makes the extra material from the show more bonus than filler.

    Michel,

    I think there had been some guessing that he might end up traveling with Brienne and Pod? It could make sense, as her whole quest needs a huge revision, and last we saw them all in the books they were in the same place.

  19. Turri
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Summer is Coming,
    It’s not that big a divergence. The show is still more chronological than the books.

    S4 start dates:
    Dany 10/299
    Balon 11/299
    Tyrion, Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, Stannis, LF 12/299
    Bran, Jon, Sam, Arya, Reek, Stoneheart 1/300

    Likely end dates:
    KL (Tywin’s funeral) 1/300
    Bran (3EC) 3/300
    Sansa, LF (Only Cat) 3/300
    Dany (Drogon kills) 3/300
    Jon, Sam, Stannis (elected LC) 3/300
    Reek (Moat Caitlin) 3/300
    Brienne (too droll to die) 3/300
    Arya (Bravos) 3/300
    (Kingsmoot 12/299)
    (Davos in White Harbour 2/300)

  20. Michel
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Turri,

    Wtf are that numbers?

  21. GeekFurious
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    While some of these things seem very accelerated, I am betting that seasons 5 and 6 will become big departures or extensions from the books and focus more on invented story-lines that lead us to events from the books. I could see them focusing on a much bigger arc for Mance, and a ton more about Jon leading the Night’s Watch into a formidable force, along with lots of Margaery manipulating the kingdom to her will and Tyrion struggling to get to a dragon or two. These would all be settings from the books but with more obstacles and perhaps more “fun” along the way. After all, so much of the struggles the characters go through in books 4 and 5 make for interesting reading but depressing viewing.

  22. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Jacarb:
    Also, any chance to hear more about Crannogmen!

    Howland Reed has to make an appearance at some point in the future, don’t you agree? Bran can’t uncover ToJ secrets all by himself, can he?

  23. Carlos
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink


    Michel,

    We haven’t heard anything from Joe Dempsie (as far as I know) and he hasn’t been spotted in any set pictures, so I’m leaning towards No, but if he did, the popular theories are

    -He gets picked up by Yara and joins her on her northern quest
    -He meets and befriends Sansa in the Vale, taking the role of the female Baratheon bastard
    -He ends up befriending Jamie in KL, takes on the Ilyn Payne Role/the squires who are with Jamie on his AFFC journey
    -He teems up with Brienne of her quest, and leads her to the BWB, thinking Arya is still with them (I’d say “sorta taking Pod’s role” if we didn’t already know Pod is keeping it
    - dies because he didn’t know shit about rowing, Tyrion comes across his Skeleton in his little boat during his escape from KL , and makes a witty comment about it

    The Brienne thing makes the most sense in terms off getting back to where he is in the books, but you never know

  24. Carlos
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Clearly I failed at using the spoiler tag, and I don’t know how to fix it

  25. Veltigar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Great, I hope it plays out like in the books bloated corpses, broken promises and Crannogmen guerilla

    People don’t need to worry about Season 5 imo They’ll probably bring the battle for WF forward anyway. And even if they don’t, Theon’s storyline in WF was wonderfull and there a lot of room for expansion. Someone like Lady Dustin could easily be given more lines on the show. And then there’s Ciarian Hinds, whoever plays Manderley and Roose and Ramsay to keep us entertained

    And my Cato reference:

    Furthermore, I believe that Mads Mikkelsen is the only actor who can do justice to Euron Greyjoy. Cast him ASAP whatever the cost!

  26. Abyss
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Michel,

    I think he/she is using the calendar of Westeros. That means month/year (after Aegons landing at the shore of Westeros).

  27. DeadAntelope
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    AA,

    This seems to make the most sense.

  28. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Who si Theon? That is not his name, you have to remember his name winteriscoming.net

  29. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    DeadAntelope:
    AA,

    This seems to make the most sense.

    The shots in the trailer of Theon arriving at Moat Cailin would suggest otherwise.

  30. TheBerylfly
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Goddammit
    For a second, just for a second there, I’d let myself believe it was Victarion

  31. Bowl of Brown
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen,

    Maybe it’s a little of both? What if NotAsha makes a stop at Moat Cailin on her way to search for Theon, when Kenning informs her that Balon has died? A raven would get to Moat Cailin faster than NotAsha’s ship, so it makes some sense chronologically. It would be one way to get her back to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot, if in fact that’s the direction D&D decide to take her character.

  32. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Bowl of Brown:
    King Tommen,

    Maybe it’s a little of both? What if NotAsha makes a stop at Moat Cailin on her way to search for Theon, when Kenning informs her that Balon has died? A raven would get to Moat Cailin faster than NotAsha’s ship, so it makes some sense chronologically. It would be one way to get her back to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot, if in fact that’s the direction D&D decide to take her character.

    This has been discussed previously but Yara specifically laid out her travel route in the S3 finale. She’s taking their fastest longship all the way around Westeros, coming up the Narrow Sea and then taking a smaller boat up the Weeping Water (which runs from the Narrow Sea to the banks of the Dreadfort) so that she can presumably take the Dreadfort from behind and from the water as opposed to travelling on land where they would be less comfortable and more exposed.

    In the shots of the trailer, you can see that she’s paddling in the smaller boat with her men on a river with a big leafy environment which bears a striking similarity to the look of the land around the Dreadfort that we saw Theon and Ramsay running around in last season.

    She’s not going to another Northern post, she’s going to the Dreadfort. I know there are so many fans trying to get her to Pyke for the Kingsmoot and twisting around the logic of what we’ve seen and heard in order to work backwards from this hope. But it’s not happening, let’s all deal with it now.

    She went on the mission for a reason, not to just turn around and go back to where she came from after a few episodes. If they wanted her in Deepwood Motte, they would have left her there instead of having her come to Pyke for the S3 finale. If they wanted her in Pyke, they would have left her with Balon in the finale instead of her forsaking Balon and swearing that she would bring Theon back and rescue him from the Dreadfort.

    There is no reason to even send her on that mission unless she’s going to end up there. Let’s all accept it now so we can sleep better at night.

  33. Turncloak
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    OMG! This probably means we will get Roose meeting Ramsay!!! “Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother.” – Roose

  34. Bard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen: The shots in the trailer of Theon arriving at Moat Cailin would suggest otherwise.

    If that’s really Moat Cailin. The place, it’s strategic importance and the fact that it has been taken by Ironborn were never mentioned in the show. I’m sure Theon will betray bis countrymen, but will it happen there?

  35. Andrew
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    I’m totally cool with the fact that David & Dan seem to have a “forward momentum only” focus, even if the books’ timelines become completely shuffled. They could have made up stuff for folks like Theon, Bran, Yara, Stannis, etc to do this season while pushing their Book 4/5 plots to season 5 and beyond, but nope: they’re dipping full bore into Feast and Dance material, and I think this is a good thing.

    I will hazard a guess, though, that whatever happens in the battle between Stannis and Ramsay in the beginning of Book 6 will probably happen at the end of Season 5. We’ll get Theon at Moat Cailin this year, Season 4 will likely end with the Boltons claiming Winterfell (I think there was a shot of that in the trailer), and next year will be all the intrigue at Winterfell (possibly/hopefully with fake Arya, Manderley, and Frey Pie!).

    I’m fairly certain at this point we’ll see Book 6 material at the end of season 5. Based on the rate of storytelling and HBO budget/contract logistics, I’m becoming increasingly sure that Season 7 will be the last. This is going to be one of the more fascinating book-to-screen adaptations, to say the least.

  36. cosca
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Moat Cailin was probably my favorite chapter in ADWD, can’t wait.

    I’d say there’s more than enough going on at Winterfell in ADWD for Theon to have a great arc in Season 5. They can always include his confrontation with Stannis in the tWoW preview chapter as well. No way in hell could his DWD material go on into Season 6 though.

  37. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Bard: If that’s really Moat Cailin. The place, it’s strategic importance and the fact that it has been taken by Ironborne were never mentioned in the show. I’m sure Theon will betray bis countrymen, but will it happen there?


    Moat Cailin has been mentioned on the show in previous seasons (although more in passing). There are also shots in the trailer of Roose and Ramsay meeting each other so it stands to reason that Ralf Kenning is there because we’re going to follow the book narrative of Theon arriving there (as we see him do in the trailer) so that he can have them surrender.

    Not sure why people are questioning this so much. The pieces are all there. And now we’re at the point where people would rather reject storylines taken directly from the book of which we see clear evidence of so that they can concoct a way for Yara to not go to the Dreadfort. Brilliant.

  38. ebevan91
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    This was kind of a random-ass casting lol.

    Wasn’t expecting this guy at all.

  39. CT Wahoo
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    Considering that they’ll be starting on the Season 5 storyboards and scripts in another month or two, I wouldn’t be so sure about the inclusion of any TWOW material in Season 5. Already too late for that unless the book all of a sudden gets released before the end of March.

    I think they can make it through one more season without TWOW, but no more than that. Must have it for Season 6.

  40. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    Michel: Off topic: Does anyone knows if Gendry will appears these season, and if so, wtf will he be doing?

    He likely will, but nobody knows how much or where. My guess would be that he gets picked up by either Littlefinger (to substitute for Mya in the Vale) or by Yara (to tell her that Balon is in danger and give her an excuse to hike back to the Iron Islands to try and save Daddy). Or who knows, we’ll might get footage of him rowing a little further each episode, until he finally reaches Maidenpool in the finale, just when Arya’s ship goes off in direction of Braavos.

    Casting: this would seem to fit with the person with the white flag in the trailer. That made me wonder if they’d do more of Theon’s ADWD stuff this season.

  41. JD
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Im not worried about Theons storyline next season at all, his chapters in ADWD have more than enough material for 2 seasons, i would imagine he will have 6 episodes again this season, and 7 or possibly even 8 episodes in season 5. Though i do wish they would focus on other Ironborn instead of Kenning who i dont even remember to be honest. & Last year they should have replaced Theons episode 6,7 & 10 storyline and replaced it with Kyra which was an important part of Theons memories.

    I just wish they would stop casting these nobodies to the story (Yohn Roce, Anya Waynwood, Knight at the Gate? Lord Blackmount? Morag Craster? All of those could have been Brown Ben Plumm or the Kettlebacks, or Victarion, or the Crows Eye, or COLDHANDS, Varamyr, or some more of the NW.. Unfortunately i doubt we will be seeing many if ANY of the characters i just named :(

    REGARDLESS COME ON APRIL 6TH I CANT WAIT ANY LONGER!!!

  42. JD
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    Well we do know that he filmed with Brienne & Podrick this year, my guess is he will meet up with them in Episode 8.

  43. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    JD:

    Well we do know that he filmed with Brienne & Podrick this year, my guess is he will meet up with them in Episode 8.

    We do? I thought that was just people speculating he would end up in their storyline. The actors were actually seen together?

  44. Andrew
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    CT Wahoo,

    I really would like to think that D&D would push Book 6 material as far as possible, so that the book can come out before the show reaches that point, but the material we’re seeing in trailers and news posts like this one suggests they’re plunging full steam ahead.

    Right now, I’m only suggesting this for the Theon/Bolton/Stannis plot (that S5 will end with the as-yet-unknown battle between Stannis and Ramsay). But D&D have to keep certain characters in play, and I’m not sure how they do that without inventing plots wholesale. So far it just looks like they’re choosing not to delay, but to pull from future books. I would guess we get some Book 6 material for Bran and Sansa in season 5, too, based on how fast those plots seem to be playing out.

  45. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Yara telling the audience how she’s getting to the Dreadfort:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wO-HdyLkgo

    Yara getting to the Dreadfort:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZY43QSx3Fk

  46. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Mads Mikkelson is the perfect Euron, but I also really liked his brother (Lars Mikkelson) as Charles Agustus Magnussen in Sherlock… Possibly another Ironborn? Either Aeron or Rodrik Harlaw (Asha’s uncle on mother’s side) in my opinion…

  47. Jason Isaacs
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    I disagree with you.

  48. Rygar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    Ha. Well said, Mr. Crows Eye!

  49. Zack
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    CT Wahoo,

    The book doesn’t just go from 0% finished to 100% finished the instant it hits shelves…

    I’m guessing GRRM will provide them early access to finished material from the manuscript for seasons 5/6 scriptwriting purposes at least. How much they might get of course depends how far along Winds of Winter is. It’s likely pretty far along now.

  50. koopa_coffee
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    JD,

    Kyra is being replaced by Miranda this season and we know they’ll include a hunt (remember the tweet of Ramsay’s bitches?)

    Yes, minor characters are being casted but that doesn’t mean major characters for upcoming seasons won’t be. The Kettleblacks will probably be cut because their role can be taken on by other characters (Meryn Trant for example) but I can almost guarantee that BBP, Victarion, and Euron will be cast in Season 5 when their stories become relevant.

    Coldhands is an interesting one, if he has been cast it’s been kept secret for obvious reasons. I’m hoping that he shows up at the aftermath of the mutiny at Craster’s keep to kill Rast and the other mutineers and save Bran and company.

  51. House Mormont
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Michel: The show is gonna be very unbalanced in the future

    no, the show will be balanced, Feast and Dance are unbalanced.It’s better than following the books and having 20 Tyrion travelling scenes and 2 Sansa scenes. I also get the impression that D&D are hurrying along certain storylines so they can be finished and they’ll have screentime for other plots like Aegon and Dorne. Alfie did possibly hint that he may die in the future in an interview

  52. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    OMG! This probably means we will get Roose meeting Ramsay!!! “Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother.” – Roose

    This. Michael McElhatton will make this sound awesome.

  53. House Mormont
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    koopa_coffee,

    The trailer shows Jon killing the mutineers at Craster’s, there’s no proof that Bran ends up there, especially since his storyline doesn’t need filler at the pace it’s going ahead at

  54. OldeCrone
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Hmmm another Brit playing an Ironborn?

    Now, Rygar, I know you like to pull our collective legs …..

    …but being serious a moment, going from memory from something I read in a historical context during my dim and distant childhood said that the Phoenicians used to refer to what is now Britain as “the tin island”. The British tin miles, which are largely “mined out” now are mostly, if not all, in the county of Cornwall, but when I first heard people in the show talking about “The Iron Islands” I did wonder if George RR Martin had Britain as the “tin island” in mind when he dreamed up the Iron Islands. Of course I have no psychic gift to enter into GRRM’s mind to know if that was his inspiration.

  55. kdenn1020
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Jacarb,

    I’m thinking they cut out that whole storyline. It’s useless for television

  56. Macharius
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    I thought it was quite clear in the trailer that you see Theon riding with a peace banner

  57. Macharius
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    You see that happening in the trailer

  58. zerowolf
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Mmm…This all points to the fact that HBO have no intention of waiting for the books to appear. They are going to wrap this thing up after six seasons.
    My reasons for thinking this?
    1.Frank Doelger ( Executive Producer ) is on record as saying he expects the series to last six seasons.
    2.True Blood is the first time that HBO have taken anything to seven seasons and most people think that has probably outstayed it’s welcome – I wouldn’t like that to happen to GoT.
    3.We know that D & D spent two weeks with GRRM in Sante Fe last year quizzing the author on his perceived ending for the novels. Why so early?
    4.Does anyone on here seriously believe that Martin will finish this tale? All the evidence would suggest otherwise. He’s obviously painted himself into a corner here. The Others / White Walkers only appear every thousand years when there is an extremely LONG winter, yet it only arrived at the end of ADWD. The timing is off. How can he square that circle?
    5.His work is heavily influenced by The War Of The Roses. Did British history cease when Henry came to the throne? No. In effect there can be no ‘end’ to this tale. What D & D can do is bring several of the story arcs to a satisfactory conclusion.That seems to be the route they are taking.
    I love the books and I hope I’m wrong but I now see the show as a very enjoyable but separate entity.

  59. Veltigar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth:
    Mads Mikkelson is the perfect Euron, but I also really liked his brother (Lars Mikkelson) as Charles Agustus Magnussen in Sherlock… Possibly another Ironborn? Either Aeron or Rodrik Harlaw (Asha’s uncle on mother’s side) in my opinion…

    An interesting fact about the Mikkelsen brothers. Mads is 183 cm and Lars is 192 cm. Now which two brothers, in their age category, do we know in the books were one is distinctivly taller than the other…

    Furthermore I believe that Mads is the only actor who can do justice to Euron Greyjoy

  60. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    zerowolf,

    1.Frank Doelger ( Executive Producer ) is on record as saying he expects the series to last six seasons.

    Seven. He said seven seasons.

    And the difference between True Blood and Game Of Thrones is relatively simple – GoT has an overarcing plot that people will want to follow to the end. True Blood has Which Hunk Will Sookie Choose Next? Far easier to jump off.

    5.His work is heavily influenced by The War Of The Roses. Did British history cease when Henry came to the throne? No.

    Of course not, but it’s relatively easy to tell a story about the War of the Roses and end it with Richard III.’s death, or Henry ascending the throne. The same way Westerosi history won’t stop at the end of this story – unless they can’t avoid the Otherpocalypse I guess – but the Song of Ice and Fire will have ended.

  61. koopa_coffee
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    kdenn1020,

    Nope. Leaked filming shots have shown Brienne and Pod travelling together.

    House Mormont,

    Apparently extras have mentioned that Craster’s Keep will involve both Jon & Bran’s storylines this season.

  62. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Are you referring to Victarion? If that’s the case I do not think Lars could play Victarion (btw I’m basing my opinion entirely on Sherlock because that’s the only performance of Lars I can remember) I really liked his calm performance of CAM in Sherlock, while Victarion needs to almost be constantly angry to portray him how I imagined him. In my opinion he would be a perfect Rodrick Harlaw (if they include him) because I can picture the performance to almost be the exact same as CAM

  63. TimeforTravel
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Enough material? Well, the show is an adaption up until ADOD, but after that? With the recent mention of grrm’s UK published that WOW is certainly years away, D&D will have to create their own storylines at some point. And that’s very unfortunate. I don’t really blame grrm for his writing, but D&D should’ve seen it coming back in 2011. They should have started season 1 right now instead of three years ago.

  64. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Dude, you’re killing me with this XD

    On topic: we kind of guessed this already. But this definitely brings up the question: what the hell are they doing with Yara?! We see in the trailer that she’s on a boat in a river (which means she’s just off of the Dreadfort, if we’re going by what she said in season 3). That means that she will most certainly GET to the Dreadfort and if she’ll get intercepted by Stannis, it will be later in the season. So she gets there and then what? Nobody’s home?? It is possible that Yara vs Ramsay will happen very early in the season, to pave way for the Moat Cailin buisness but at this point the Unsullied can guess just as well as us :/

    I always assumed the Yara story was meant to replace this early ADWD stuff, but apparently not. The Stannis interception option is also looking less and less likely, considering his trip to Braavos and the fact that Carice stressed Team Dragonstone only has a few scenes (but long ones!).

    I guess this could just be a bit of original D&D spice for early in the season, but TBH this season doesn’t really need much spice. I’m waiting to see how this pays off, and I hope we’ll understand why this whole detour/divergence/TBD was necessary and logical. Either way, seeing Yara on a row boat was awesome.

    I wonder what Moat Cailin (or its replacement) will look like…

  65. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Ray Stevenson is Victarion. It is known.

  66. Ours is the Fury
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    Satin: We do? I thought that was just people speculating he would end up in their storyline. The actors were actually seen together?

    No they weren’t. That was just speculation.

  67. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    thanks for clearing that up, Fury.

  68. mariamb
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Ahh…I love casting news. Just what I needed on a gloomy Monday.

    I am all for anything that moves Theon’s story arc forward and lessens the reliance on the torture scenes. Theon’s chapters in ADWD are amazing – some of the best in the entire story – so I am happy that we are getting some of it now rather next season.

  69. Greenjones
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    So, Alex Graves on his CV. So we either get an early season Moat Caillin in ep 2 or 3 or a late season one in ep. 8 or 10. I had thought that sort of thing was more mid-season material. So if this is something entirely separate from the Yara thing, I guess it would take place before or after that.

    What do you all think about when it will play out?

  70. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    What do you all think about when it will play out?

    Eps 3-7 will be interesting Theon/Reek/Yara/Ramsay development time between the Dreadfort & Moat Cailin, with some sort of battle at MC in ep 8 or 10, imho. The show needs time for Yara to get in the vicinity via her magic longship (travelling at least 6000-8000 leagues around Dorne!), then the inevitable should work itself out. I rather enjoy the combo of book lore and show lore with this storyline. I’m looking forward to it.

  71. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    But we do know Gendry’s coming back, and that he will appear in his own scene/s this season. Check out Flicks and the City’s interview with Joe Dempsie in YouTube.
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I agree. But where does this leave Yara?

  72. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    I think Roose and Ramsay meeting up after Moat Cailin has fallen would be near the end of the season to set up the Winterfell stuff for S5. So I imagine that Theon goes to Moat Cailin in E8. All of the Theon/Ramsay and probably Yara stuff in the season prior to that would take place at the Dreadfort.

  73. Greenjones
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen,

    If that is the case I hope to Christ we get a bit of Roose before that. He was one of the highlights of the past two seasons.

  74. Reza
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    I am guessing or at least what makes sense is that the show runners have already had discussions with George and kind of know the big picture of things happening to Theon going forward. In that case the show becomes spoilery for book readers? Interesting!

  75. Kilgore Tully
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    zerowolf:
    Mmm…This all points to the fact that HBO have no intention of waiting for the books to appear. They are going to wrap this thing up after six seasons.
    My reasons for thinking this?
    1.Frank Doelger ( Executive Producer ) is on record as saying he expects the series to last six seasons.
    2.True Blood is the first time that HBO have taken anything to seven seasons and most people think that has probably outstayed it’s welcome – I wouldn’t like that to happen to GoT.
    3.We know that D & D spent two weeks with GRRM in Sante Fe last year quizzing the author on his perceived ending for the novels. Why so early?
    4.Does anyone on here seriously believe that Martin will finish this tale? All the evidence would suggest otherwise. He’s obviously painted himself into a corner here. The Others / White Walkers only appear every thousand years when there is an extremely LONG winter, yet it only arrived at the end of ADWD. The timing is off. How can he square that circle?
    5.His work is heavily influenced by The War Of The Roses. Did British history cease when Henry came to the throne? No. In effect there can be no ‘end’ to this tale. What D & D can do is bring several of the story arcs to a satisfactory conclusion.That seems to be the route they are taking.
    I love the books and I hope I’m wrong but I now see the show as a very enjoyable but separate entity.

    1. “George RR Martin has written books four and five; six and seven are pending. I would hope that, if we all survive, and if the audience stays with us we’ll probably get through to seven seasons.” Is what he said. Sounds more like an expected minimum than a hard maximum, to some.
    2. Season 4 of True Blood was the time-jump/witch season. It was already being ridiculed. Hardly a fair comparison.
    3. They wanted to make sure the changes they were about to make, even early on, wouldn’t cause problems in the end.
    4&5 aren’t really arguments over how long the show will last, just if the overall story will end well. This is just a matter of faith.

  76. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    I agree. But where does this leave Yara?

    I’m glad you caught that. :) I punted and placed her future in the hands of the showrunners. Who knows what will happen?

    Seriously (I think we pontificated this a few weeks ago), I think Yara loses her army at Dreadfort or Moat Cailin but is not captured by Ramsay. She ends up following/tracking Theon/Reek from a distance (via her own new set of adventures) and eventually finds her way to Barrowton/Winterfell. How’s that for a half-witted hasty response?

    Sadly, no Kingsmoot for Yara..as King Tommen predicts…

  77. SM4e
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    I do think she’ll be in for the Kingsmoot. Kenning is one of her men (maybe the secind in command) that she brings to the Dreadfort. Somehow they end up in Moat Cailin and YarAsha receives the message that Balon has died from uncle Aeron. She then leaves to get back to Pyke.
    So actually she just takes Vication’s role and there is no stupid ‘being catched by Stannis’.

  78. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Satin,

    But we do know Gendry’s coming back, and that he will appear in his own scene/s this season. Check out Flicks and the City’s interview with Joe Dempsie in YouTube.

    I agree, I always interpreted the interview as him coming back, and read all the interviews he has given since then that I’ve seen the same way; but I interpreted the part of him being on his own as this being the first time he’s seen without being either Arya’s sidekick or Melisandre’s prisoner. He’s being very vague as to what Gendry might be doing or where he might be going, so I don’t think we can say for sure that he’ll be in a storyline without crossing anyone else’s. (I could be wrong of course, but that’s how I read it.)

  79. Greg
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    I imagine the first half of the season will use Theon sparingly, maybe about as much as Jaime was in Season 2. He might be featured a bit more if the Asha/Ramsay battle does happen. I imagine Theon will be released around episode 7 and go to Moat Cailin in episode 7 or 8. He won’t be in episode 9, as it’s going to focus on NW and the Battle of Castle Black, and episode 10 could be the Jeyne Poole reveal.

  80. House Mormont
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    As an unsullied when I viewed Season 3, I was excited at the end for the Boltons v Ironborn battle for the North that would have to happen in Season 4, so it makes sense to have their conflict ft Moat Cailin this season, and then Stannis v Boltons in Season 5, the North just doesn’t get a break

  81. King Tommen
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    SM4e:
    I do think she’ll be in for the Kingsmoot. Kenning is one of her men (maybe the secind in command) that she brings to the Dreadfort. Somehow they end up in Moat Cailin and YarAsha receives the message that Balon has died from uncle Aeron. She then leaves to get back to Pyke.
    So actually she just takes Vication’s role and there is no stupid ‘being catched by Stannis’.


    Yet another example of ignoring a plotline that is straight from the novels of which we have evidence to clearly confirm (cleaned up Theon taking white peace banner through decimated Moat Cailin in trailer, Ralf Kenning being the Ironborn in novels to have the control of Moat Cailin who then cedes it to Theon, Ramsay and Roose meeting up as Roose marches North presumably after Moat Cailin surrenders).

    So let’s ignore all this so we can find a convoluted way to get Yara back for the Kingsmoot because that’s what you want to see.

  82. Veltigar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth:
    Veltigar,

    Are you referring to Victarion? If that’s the case I do not think Lars could play Victarion (btw I’m basing my opinion entirely on Sherlock because that’s the only performance of Lars I can remember) I really liked his calm performance of CAM in Sherlock, while Victarion needs to almost be constantly angry to portray him how I imagined him. In my opinion he would be a perfect Rodrick Harlaw (if they include him) because I can picture the performance to almost be the exact same as CAM

    CAM was to much of sleezebag to compare with Victarion. But like his brother Mads, Lars is a very versatile actor. He can play brooding and angry just as easy as he can play composed.

    Anyway, I’m thinking more of Ray Stevenson as Victarion but I think that Lars could play him just as well.

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    Veltigar,

    Ray Stevenson is Victarion. It is known.

    You can have the Rayman if I can get Mads for Euron :p

    My Cato impression:

    Furthermore I believe that Mads is the only actor who can do justice to Euron Greyjoy

  83. SM4e
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen,

    Sorry, I think I didn’t make myself clear enough.
    I do think that YarAsha’s crew will end up in Moat Cailin after a battle with the Boltons. YarAsha then receives the message that a Kingsmoot will be held and she will leave Moat Cailin behind and giving the leadership to Kenning. After YarAsha has left, Theon will be sent in order to ‘negotiate’ with the Ironborn and everything will run the way it does in the books.

    So basically they just turned Vicatrion and YarAsha around because otherwise, they would have had to introduce in Season 3/4, which they didn’t want to.

    Well, but tell me what your guess is because I find mine not that stupid. ;-)

    Edit: And I do think they need a familiar face when all the new Ironborn are introduced. Dorne will be hard for casual viewers anyway and the Iroborn have so similar sounding names.

  84. Tenesmus
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    SM4e,

    They could blend Theon and Yara to into some semblence of the Victarion arc. I’m not convinced that Theon and Yara hooking up with Stannis is crucial to the end game.

    Additionally, once Jon is “killed” and perhaps brought back, I don’t think he will be leading the NW any longer. NW vows are probably null and void once you die, right? (Like Verin in WOT) He prolly becomes a leader in the North and takes all those Wildlings with him to Winterfell.

  85. Jordan S.
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    re: Coldhands… Unless GRRM has some major plans for him in TWoW or aDoS (including a dramatic reveal on his identity which would have to be a character non readers know–so Benjen), I don’t see them putting him in the show–Unfortunately– for 2 reasons.

    First, it would open an intriguing story arc that is not likely to be sufficiently closed to the casual viewer. He is a cool character, and one that book readers like because we like the overarching history and mythology, which play a lesser part in the show for obvious reasons. CH would draw alot of interest when he initially appears, but just leave non-readers saying “Who the hell was that guy anyways?!”.

    Second, he doesn’t REALLY play a necessary role. They used the crows scene with Sam/Gilly, and could easily replace CH in a similar way whenever they want to show a character receiving some sort of assistance with the Others/wights.

    I love CH as much as the next reader… but I just don’t think its going to happen (unless CH is Benjen…and I don’t think he is)

    Also, I have never posted anything with spoiler tags, so if it doesn’t work I apologize.

  86. Bard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen:
    Moat Cailin has been mentioned on the show in previous seasons (although more in passing).There are also shots in the trailer of Roose and Ramsay meeting each other so it stands to reason that Ralf Kenning is there because we’re going to follow the book narrative of Theon arriving there (as we see him do in the trailer) so that he can have them surrender.


    Not sure why people are questioning this so much. The pieces are all there. And now we’re at the point where people would rather reject storylines taken directly from the book of which we see clear evidence of so that they can concoct a way for Yara to not go to the Dreadfort. Brilliant.

    Ok. At which point exactly? Certainly not last season and I can’t remember hearing anything about the place in season 1 when Robb marched south. Just curious, because that’s the reason I was unsure MC would be used as a location in season 4 (nothing to do with Yara).


    I agree though that the meeting of the Boltons makes it pretty likely that we’re going to see Moat Cailin, with Theon as a tool to pave the way for Roose and his men on their way north.

  87. Veltigar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    There are only two real possibilities for Gendry:

    1. As a companion to Brienne and Pod. I think that’s unlikely, because he doesn’t really add anything in that storyline. He would just take lines away from Pod imo.

    2. To replace yet another bastard of Bobby B namely Mya Stone in the Vale. I have speculated before that after LS trial of Jaime in tWoW, the surviving members of the BwB (including Gendry) will be pardoned by Jaime if they swear fealthy to Brienne and escort her to the Vale (an escort she’ll need with the Clans on the war path).

    They could easily skip Gendry’s stint with the BwB and sent him to the Vale already. That would save them the expense of adding yet another bastard, give Gendry something to do and have him exchange some lines with another main character

    They could also built up Gendry’s chivalry through this (something which is hard when Brienne and TriPod are stealing the limelight) and contrast him nicely to Harry the Heir when that douche is finally included.

    They could also built up something of a budding romance between the two of them. Gendry could believe that the new humble Alayne could give him something that Milady Arya could never give him. And Sansa would like his strong protective presence

    And D&D can really throw a plot bomb if they decide to include Jaime’s line in the books when he sends Brienne away to search for Sansa. IIRC Jaime remarks that he hopes that Sansa has hid herself away somewhere, forgot who she was and married a blacksmith

    After that line cut to a scene (preferably their first meaningful encounter) between Gendry and Sansa. Imagine the Twitter storm that would start! Plus a Gendry-Sansa pairing might also be in the works in the books, so they might be tipping us of oh so subtely

    Now my impression of Cato the Elder

    Furthermore I believe that Mads is the only actor who can do justice to Euron Greyjoy

  88. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    King Tommen,

    I don’t think we can rule out Yara in the Kingsmoot just yet, and we certainly can’t rule out Yara settling in Deepwood Motte or a replacement considering this info suggests that the Yara vs Ramsay buisness will happen and be overwith somewhere between episode 1 and 6- which leaves Yara the second half of the season and maybe some of season 4 to get back to Pyke. It’s possible technically, even though it would make the whole affair seem a bit pointless. One other thing I would like to point out is that Yara can return to Pyke from the west rather than the east if shit really hits the fan for her, and she can deffinately run off to Deepwood which is already established in the show as one of Yara’s outposts (in season 2).

    The only thing that is 100% certain is that Yara won’t just turn back mid way, and anyone who theorized that was kidding himself anyway. The question of why is interesting. My guess is that they wanted an action scene early in the season as well as something other than torture porn for Theon, and that they wanted to develop Yara ahead of the expansion of the Iron Islands. Am I positive she’ll end up where she was in AFFC? Not at all, but your rational points won’t prevent me from hoping.

    If we rule out Yara being abducted by Stannis we are left with Yara retreating to Deepwood or a replacement after the Ramsay business (possible IMO), Yara dying (pointless), Yara arriving at an empty Dreadfort (fairly pointless, but some users suggested the Dreadfort can replace Deepwood Motte), Yara being abducted by Ramsay (improbable and very, very different from the books), Yara runs a covert spy mission on Ramsay and Theon at Moat Cailin (maybe? Hodor’s Bastard suggests something like that) and finally Yara returns to Pyke.

    I can’t think of any other option…

  89. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    SM4e,

    I like that. So basically Yara attacks the Dreadfort but is defeated and retreats to Moat Cailin which Victarion’s men are holding. Theon and Ramsay pursue in attempt to push the Ironborn out of the North. Ramsay meets Roose at Harrenhall, and they then set out for Moat Cailin (at which point Yara might already be heading for Pyke, or not) and the Moat Cailin stuff happens like in the book. It does a good job of setting up Moat Cailin and essentially expanding one-two chapters into a seasonal arc that actually makes a lot of sense.

    How do we introduce the Moat Cailin conflict to the viewer? By getting an already existing Ironborn character to initiate a battle with the Boltons. Clean, simple and logical. I adopt this theory, whether or not Yara gets home.

  90. Tenesmus
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    She leads Ramsay on a Merry Chase from the Dreadfort to Deepwood Motte, snatches Theon when he comes with the flag and then escapes to Pike where they find Balon dead.

  91. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    JD: I just wish they would stop casting these nobodies to the story (Yohn Roce, Anya Waynwood, Knight at the Gate? Lord Blackmount? Morag Craster? All of those could have been Brown Ben Plumm or the Kettlebacks, or Victarion, or the Crows Eye, or COLDHANDS, Varamyr, or some more of the NW.. Unfortunately i doubt we will be seeing many if ANY of the characters i just named :(

    No, I disagree. Most of these characters you mention are indeed going to mostly be background for other characters, and it reflects intelligence on their part in going forward with these storylines by deepening the experience early on so they don’t feel “ret-conned” into the story. So the Lords Declarant, Tycho Nestoris, et al, are all smart moves. And if the bulk of Theon’s story this year involves some of this plus watching Ramsey torture people, it would seem to make sense, and most of his ADwD story gets into Season 5, lending more credence to the theory that the 5th Season will handle a good chunk of AFfC and ADwD, saving just the latter portion of that book for Season 6. Makes the most sense, puts it still on track for 8 seasons.

  92. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Tenesmus,

    Nonono. Theon needs to be at Winterfell. That was the highlight of ADWD, I doubt they’d remove it.

  93. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: No they weren’t. That was just speculation.

    More to the point, it was speculation based on photos that made Pod look a LOT like Joe Dempsie, haircut and all.

  94. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    if that happens – and I think it’s good speculation! – it won’t only be twitter that explodes. I know two sets of shippers that would be very unhappy with that development. I will have to remember to get the popcorn in case you turn out to be right.

  95. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    zerowolf:
    Mmm…This all points to the fact that HBO have no intention of waiting for the books to appear. They are going to wrap this thing up after six seasons.
    My reasons for thinking this?
    1.Frank Doelger ( Executive Producer ) is on record as saying he expects the series to last six seasons.
    2.True Blood is the first time that HBO have taken anything to seven seasons and most people think that has probably outstayed it’s welcome – I wouldn’t like that to happen to GoT.
    3.We know that D & D spent two weeks with GRRM in Sante Fe last year quizzing the author on his perceived ending for the novels. Why so early?
    4.Does anyone on here seriously believe that Martin will finish this tale? All the evidence would suggest otherwise. He’s obviously painted himself into a corner here. The Others / White Walkers only appear every thousand years when there is an extremely LONG winter, yet it only arrived at the end of ADWD. The timing is off. How can he square that circle?
    5.His work is heavily influenced by The War Of The Roses. Did British history cease when Henry came to the throne? No. In effect there can be no ‘end’ to this tale. What D & D can do is bring several of the story arcs to a satisfactory conclusion.That seems to be the route they are taking.
    I love the books and I hope I’m wrong but I now see the show as a very enjoyable but separate entity.

    1. Another HBO top exec has said it will go on “as long as there are stories to tell.” No, it’s not going to be six.

    2. Making an assumption about the length of one show based on the length of another show isn’t really founded on anything.

    3. Why wouldn’t he? Evidence of nothing.

    4. I’m not sure what this assertion has to do with anything. We’re well into winter here by the end of ADwD.

    5. Well, but history doesn’t end, and books do…

  96. Turri
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:24 pm | Permalink
  97. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: More to the point, it was speculation based on photos that made Pod look a LOT like Joe Dempsie, haircut and all.

    But these two look nothing alike? Daniel Portman, bless him, is twice Joe Dempsie’s size and looks like he hasn’t seen his 18th nameday yet.

  98. Andrew
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Am I crazy to predict that they’ll end up eliminating Euron and Damphair and just keep Balon alive? Then when Yara presumably gets herself captured, he can send Victarion and his fleet to Daenerys? Streamlines the plot AND keeps a great actor like Patrick Malahide in play. I’m actually expecting something like this until proven otherwise.

  99. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    You weren’t here in the PB/GB phase. It was pretty hilarious how much people bended reality to try and fit it around their theories. It was clearly Pod in that photo, but he was pulling off a Gendrish face and had similar hair. It took a long time to convince people of the truth.

  100. Valyrian Eyes
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Is anyone else worried about the fact that Theon looks healthy and not-unhinged-as-in-trying-desperately-not-to-make-mistakes in those brief seconds of him in the trailer? If that’s really him at Moat Caillin it’s completely off, because even if they don’t go for that whole change of appearance thing (ie hair, teeth, whatever), he shouldn’t look his usual arrogant, scowl-ish self, he should have the vacant eyes, paranoid, weak-minded manners of Reek.

  101. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    The issue is that they definitely did not omit old Balon from the leach scene, and they easily could have. This tells me that Balon is going to die either in season 4 or early in season 5, so he can’t replace Euron. Maybe they’ll combine Euron and Victarion, though. And Aeron is a very likely cut.

  102. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Michel:
    The show is gonna be very unbalanced in the future, while in season 6 some characters like Bran and Theon will be probably having material from Winds or even the last book, some character like Jon and KL plot will still be in Feast/Dance

    I think they are going to embelish alot on Brans story lines and a few other. I dont think they will jump ahead in the books that much for his story while being a year behind on Jons.

    Hodor’s Bastard: Howland Reed has to make an appearance at some point in the future, don’t you agree? Bran can’t uncover ToJ secrets all by himself, can he?

    I never understood why Howland has to make an apperance. Im not saying i dont want this, but not sure we need it. I always point to Varys. We never find out if Ned wrote a note but if he did it could of been to Jon or someone else about his parentage. and even if he didnt Varys has birds everywhere he could of already known. They have Dany and Aegon/Fakegon it wouldnt be unimaginable if Jon was the third head and he knows about it. Or maybe its just 0ne of those things that we never find out for sure. I know GRRM said we would but you never know. All in all if not Howland I hope we hear it from Jojen or Meera if there not dead or see it through Brans eyes.

  103. Jen@House Stark
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Fine, I agree on him. But where the Seven Hells is Crow’s Eye? I can wait for him until next season, as long as he is in there, that they will still do the Kingsmoot.

  104. Jen@House Stark
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Howland Reed has to make an appearance at some point in the future, don’t you agree? Bran can’t uncover ToJ secrets all by himself, can he?

    Agreed Howland is the only living person who was at the TOJ, he needs to show up sometime.

  105. Atomix
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    I think this season is the opportunity for D&B to flesh out the Reeds and the Crannogmen with material from the first three books. Beyond the Wall Jojen and Meera Reed have the opportunity to talk about where they come from, their father Howland and his service to Ned, and maybe FINALLY tell Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Meanwhile at the same time see what the Bog Devils have done to the Iron Borne at Moat Calin. How terrified they are. We could even get some scenes before that of Roose Bolton and his Friends of Frey being scared of the Frog Eaters as they travel north. That’s the best way to start it out. It can be practically seamless – and the juxtaposition of those tales and Moat Calin’s present would leave an indelible mark on the viewing Audience. The Neck is a Dangerous place populated by Guerrilla Fighters fiercely loyal to the Starks. Maybe the last true friends the Starks have left.

  106. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfyre,

    People always forget about Wylla. She is an established, existing character who definitely knows more about Jon’s parentage than anyone else in Westeros, considering she claims to be his mother. Edric Dayne has already spoken to Arya about her. She’s still alive, as far as we know, and she knows SOMETHING, surely. GRRM wouldn’t just create a character for no purpose at all, Wylla is bound to pop up somewhere and it’s safe to assume she will be directly related to the official revelation of Jon’s parentage- with or without Howland Reed.

  107. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    that sounds… really exciting. Was that during a time with little news?

    And wow, I thought I was the only one remembering Wylla! I’m sure she’ll at least show up to make clear that neither she nor Ashara Dayne are Jon’s mother.

  108. DeadAntelope
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Or maybe he could somehow get to Skagos and meet up with Osha, Rickon and later Davos? :P

  109. Andrew
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    People clamoring for the Kingsmoot should rewatch Pirates of the Caribbean 3 to see how inherently silly a mass gathering of seadogs and swashbucklers plays onscreen, especially in comparison to the world the HBO show has established. I’m not optimistic that sequence makes the cut.

  110. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Eyes:
    Is anyone else worried about the fact that Theon looks healthy and not-unhinged-as-in-trying-desperately-not-to-make-mistakes in those brief seconds of him in the trailer? If that’s really him at Moat Caillin it’s completely off, because even if they don’t go for that whole change of appearance thing (ie hair, teeth, whatever), he shouldn’t look his usual arrogant, scowl-ish self, he should have the vacant eyes, paranoid, weak-minded manners of Reek.

    No.

    1. I do not get “worried” by things I see in trailers. It’s a waste of time. Leads people to start making assumptions about the story that have not been addressed based on a couple of casting rumors and their own obsessiveness, and then extracting from these assumptions their worst fears to then get riled up about.

    2. We’ve got a 2-millisecond shot of Theon and not enough to really judge anything on.

    3. They could have shaved Theon’s head, but to make him grey-haired? Would look sort of ridiculous in retrospect. His eyes look reddish and watery, and Alfie Allen’s a fine actor, who will pull this off.

  111. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Andrew:
    People clamoring for the Kingsmoot should rewatch Pirates of the Caribbean 3 to see how inherently silly a mass gathering of seadogs and swashbucklers plays onscreen, especially in comparison to the world the HBO show has established. I’m not optimistic that sequence makes the cut.

    If it gets cut, it’s not going to be cut because of the third lame-ass goddamned Pirates of the Caribbean movie.

  112. Hounded
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    I’m thinking that season 4 will have Ramsay taking Theon out on a hunt with his bitches (perhaps hunting for Bran and Rickon.) They will be unsuccessful but could perhaps come into some kind of contact with Rickon and Osha. Perhaps Theon finds them and tells them to flee as far as they can because Ramsay is after them (which would explain why they go to Skagos). Then they return to the Dreadfort where Ramsay is given a letter that has arrived from his Father telling his that he is to return to the North. Ramsay then has the idea of using Theon to organize the surrender of the Iron Born holding Moat Cailin. They head South and Theon gets the Iron Born to surrender and Ramsay executes them all. They then meet Roose who arrives with Jeyne Poole and tells them that they are to be married at Winterfell.

    Then season 5 has all the juicy Winterfell stuff.

  113. Veltigar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    Jon Blackfyre,

    People always forget about Wylla. She is an established, existing character who definitely knows more about Jon’s parentage than anyone else in Westeros, considering she claims to be his mother. Edric Dayne has already spoken to Arya about her. She’s still alive, as far as we know, and she knows SOMETHING, surely. GRRM wouldn’t just create a character for no purpose at all, Wylla is bound to pop up somewhere and it’s safe to assume she will be directly related to the official revelation of Jon’s parentage- with or without Howland Reed.

    Ah, the mysterious wetnurse Do we even know she exists? I’m a firm believer in the AD+HR=MR+JR. For all we know the other person present at the ToJ was Ashara Dayne(if we’re not going into the crackpot that Arthur is still alive), which would make sense since she’s Arthur’s sister, knows Lyanna and is a Lady-in-waiting as a profession.

    The whole character of Wylla on the other hand doesn’t make sense. Here is someone who literally has 0,00% of being a positive factor in the scenario where she’s present at the ToJ (she’s just a common wench with no tie to Ned Stark, so not a credible witness that could confirm Jon’s parentage and bring him forth as a claimant. Not to Jon nor anyone else). She’s in fact a liability, because the only thing she could do is give away the game.

    Imo the actual phrasing of Ned’s dream was such that we don’t know what actually took place there. Ashara and Arthur could both be strong candidates for the ones who found Ned with Lyanna’s body in this scenario

    Wylla might have fed Jon after Ned took him to Starfall, but she sure as hell wasn’t present as a staffer at the ToJ imo..

    Now my impression of Cato the Elder:

    Furthermore I believe that Mads is the only actor who can do justice to Euron Greyjoy

  114. Satin
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Andrew: People clamoring for the Kingsmoot should rewatch Pirates of the Caribbean 3 to see how inherently silly a mass gathering of seadogs and swashbucklers plays onscreen, especially in comparison to the world the HBO show has established. I’m not optimistic that sequence makes the cut.

    I think we need at least some version of it, though. Right now, Yara’s standing on the Iron Islands is unusual for a woman, but very secure: an uncle who comes back to steal her throne and turns her into a fugitive is a good way to destroy that security, and if she never has an initial confrontation with Euron, that conflict will seem bloodless. And I think they’ll cast Euron at the very least because he shapes up to be a very important antagonist in ADWD. Victarion, too, if they want the Ironborn in Meereen.

    Veltigar,

    Ned Dayne – the kid who is Beric’s squire in the books – remembers her, though, so I think she exists. And the name, which is Northern, and these rumours Davos hears about a fisherman’s daughter being the mother of Ned Stark’s bastard – I think the simplest explanation is that the Daynes had a Northern wetnurse, probably someone Ned introduced to Ashara when she was pregnant out of wedlock. That would explain why she was there when Ned arrived to tell Ashara about Arthur and give her the sword – and fairly likely had a baby with him, who happened to need a nurse.

    Of course, in that version she doesn’t know precisely who the mother is, but she definitely knows who isn’t.

  115. Veltigar
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Satin:
    Veltigar,

    if that happens – and I think it’s good speculation! – it won’t only be twitter that explodes. I know two sets of shippers that would be very unhappy with that development. I will have to remember to get the popcorn in case you turn out to be right.

    Thanks ;D I’ll be eating popcorn right there with you :D the Sansan shippers should probably give up anyway. Even if Sansan is a thing in the books it will never happen on the show.

    DeadAntelope:
    Veltigar,

    Or maybe he could somehow get to Skagos and meet up with Osha, Rickon and later Davos? :P

    Possible, but very unlikely. Osha is going to Umber lands in the show, not to Skagos. Even if Skagos isn’t cut, Osha would probably not go there for at least a season and they don’t have much to do anyway. So, I don’t think Gendry’s presence is as valuable there as it would be in the Vale

    Now my impression of Cato the Elder:

    Furthermore I believe that Mads is the only actor who can do justice to Euron Greyjoy

  116. Arkash
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Andrew:
    People clamoring for the Kingsmoot should rewatch Pirates of the Caribbean 3 to see how inherently silly a mass gathering of seadogs and swashbucklers plays onscreen, especially in comparison to the world the HBO show has established. I’m not optimistic that sequence makes the cut.

    I know I’m of a minority but I really liked that scene in PotC. Doesnt ring Kingsmoot at all imo (Kingsmoot should be more grandiloquent and massive) but it was an interesting scene.

  117. Valyrian Eyes
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: No.

    1. I do not get “worried” by things I see in trailers. It’s a waste of time. Leads people to start making assumptions about the story that have not been addressed based on a couple of casting rumors and their own obsessiveness, and then extracting from these assumptions their worst fears to then get riled up about.

    2. We’ve got a 2-millisecond shot of Theon and not enough to really judge anything on.

    3. They could have shaved Theon’s head, but to make him grey-haired? Would look sort of ridiculous in retrospect. His eyes look reddish and watery, and Alfie Allen’s a fine actor, who will pull this off.

    Thanks for answering :) I agree with you on all points, but I’m still worried nonetheless. Just want to clarify that I don’t expect them to dye his hair grey, nor do I care about it; it’s irrelevant.

  118. Polish
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    this makes sense, because the white flag ride scene from the trailer was pretty clearly Theon going to Moat Cailin

  119. Emperor Cronos
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Winds of Winter is almost certainly years away according to the British publisher, and the show’s not going beyond 8 seasons, so my guess is it passes the books next year.
    http://whiteharbour.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/game-of-thrones-uk-publisher-the-winds-of-winter-release-is-almost-certainly-years-away/

  120. tysnow
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    yoo-hoo! Winter is Coming to North Florida Tuesday and Wednesday, Ice and Snow, unfortunately no Dany or Mel though. To quote former President GW Bush, “Bring it on.”

    Glad to hear Moat Callin has made it in, whether in book form or D&D alternate adaption.
    Those here on WiC who stated that perhaps Yara/Asha gets to the Dreadfort only to find Theon gone, just may be correct.
    Concerning Theon, Ramsay and his bride, the casual viewers know show Arya is 13, therefore will HBO be daring enough to show Ramsay’s wedding rape of a 13 y.o. fake Arya?

  121. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Jordan S.:
    re: Coldhands…

    I appreciate the CH response.

    I guess the main reason that propels me in pursuing the appearance of CH is the murder of crows that we saw. We have seen a few White Walker scenes (Ep101 prologue, Craster baby, Fist of the First Hand approach, etc) , but only one had massive amount of crows surrounding it. That scene (Sam the bad-ass slayer) happened to be the scene where we expected CH. So…did the showrunners use the crows as insider foreshadowing of a “lurker” nearby or was it a cinematic fluke for cool effect that a WW and crows were related for that scene only? I prefer to think that the crows’ appearance wasn’t random and that there is a plan to tie them with an undead presence that is a more intriguing source that an evil WW.

    I believe it is inevitable and crucial that BR, CotFs and CH are interrelated…but we’ll see. If that is not the case and Bran figures how to get to the cave all by himself and avoid wights and NW mutineers and feed the group without CH, then I’ll live with it……but it’s one of those scenes that you hope for…

  122. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark: Agreed Howland is the only living person who was at the TOJ, he needs to show up sometime.

    Atomix:
    I think this season is the opportunity for D&B to flesh out the Reeds and the Crannogmen. Beyond the Wall Jojen and Meera Reed have the opportunity to talk about where they come from, their father Howland and his service to Ned, and maybe FINALLY tell Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree….

    If only…..
    I think the Reeds, Bran and BR have to start getting this info out in the show. Obviously, this is where TWoW would be helpful. Howland Reed is one of those characters that could significantly change things. Will GoT reduce ToJ and other Reed secrets to simple weirnet discovery or does he have a role to play on the Stark/Targ future?

  123. Kyle
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    yoo-hoo! Winter is Coming to North Florida Tuesday and Wednesday, Ice and Snow, unfortunately no Dany or Mel though. To quote former President GW Bush, “Bring it on.”

    Haha, I’m in north Florida, as well! I’m looking forward to it!

  124. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    As much as I like the Reeds, the show did a pretty poor job of introducing them, they randomly dumped into Bran, namedropped Howland Reed and that was it. So I hope we’ll get more in the future.

    And I can’t wait for BR’s introduction. One of my absolute favourite moments in the books. D&D have mostly toned down the fantasy elements, so I’m curious how they will portray him. I’d love to get a reference to his D&E backstory, but probably he’ll just be “the old mentor living in a cave, a bit like Yoda, except he’s a tree”.
    I guess I’ll be satisfied as long as he says “a thousand eyes and one.” :)

  125. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    I guess I’ll be satisfied as long as he says “a thousand eyes and one.” :)

    I was initially taken aback at how the Reed superkids were introduced as well but I kept my reservations in check since Mother Osha was in the mix. Beyond the wall is a different story though…

    In D&E, BR was presented as the original enforcer/ultra-spy (Varys & LF had nothin’ on him) and his “1000 & 1″ motto and Great Bastard backstory was heavy and cool. His transformation to Treebeard is one of the great mysteries of Westeros and now his “1000 & 1″ motto has monumental meaning and implied manipulation. This mysterious rootman is a crazy and troubling force and I’m fascinated at how GoT will depict how something of this eerie and stupendous nature works with children (albeit very mature youth)! I’m confident in the effects necessary for BR’s visual impression but I think Bran’s reaction to this being (probably in ep 10) will be the true test of this storyline. Also, I think every word that BR states will need to consider story elements from D&E, ADwD and TWoW. Expect mysteries, prophesies and supposed secrets to fall like leaves in autumn when BR & the CotF take the stage!

  126. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Props for your Mid Roman Republic History reference. Cato the Elder was a character. In the unlikelihood of Mikkelsen not being cast are prepared to fall on your sword like his Caesar hating descendant?

  127. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yeah. No wonder Bran has got only 3 chapters in ADWD. GRRM doesn’t want to reveal too much.

  128. Emperor Cronos
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned, thank god D&D don’t feel that way. They’ll give us all of the information and resolution required by 2018 at the latest. In D&D I trust.

  129. Ashara D
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Thanks for the shout out! Background about my family is what I REALLY want from tWoW.
    Love this theory as well. One of many possible journeys I could have taken.
    Stay warm, all!

  130. WildSeed
    Posted January 27, 2014 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    ah, okay, thanks for that .

  131. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I think Bran will be our vehicle to a number of prophecies and stylized flashbacks in season 5, courtesy of Bloodraven and the Weirnet. The Prince that was promised, Azor Ahai, the three headed dragon… All of them could pop up there. At some point these things WILL become important, and considering Bran will be working on one chapter (albeit, one filled with details), there is definitely room for that in Bran’s season 5 arc.

  132. Chickenduck
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Write Like The Wind(s of Winter), George!!

    Unless TWoW comes out this year, he’s getting overtaken.

    And seeing as they write the scripts anything up to a year ahead… There may already be TWoW scenes getting worked out in the writers’ room.

    GRRM is not our bitch (thanks Neil), but he is definitely HBO’s bitch now.

  133. Chickenduck
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    TimeforTravel:
    Enough material? Well, the show is an adaption up until ADOD, but after that? With the recent mention of grrm’s UK published that WOW is certainly years away, D&D will have to create their own storylines at some point. And that’s very unfortunate. I don’t really blame grrm for his writing, but D&D should’ve seen it coming back in 2011. They should have started season 1 right now instead of three years ago.

    You do know that GRRM already told D&D the general plot outlines of TWoW and ADoS, right?

  134. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    Hand waving and high level plotlines are one thing, but the devil’s beauty is in the details. Magic like “Jaime Lannister send his regards” or “Tywin does not shit gold” or “Wherever whores go” or Sam the Slayer or the building of the massive KL chain, or antler men or the “Rains of Castamere” or “You murdered her children” or “For the watch” or honey-locusts or snow castles or “Sound the attack!” does not come out in a two hour session with the author. Although I enjoy the HBO series immensely, these details are what concern me and what make the books/show brilliant. Minor chars, brooding thoughts, non PoV events, character dysfunctions and brilliance, and subtle twists are all part of the endearing magic and can only be put down on the page first by the creator (supposedly after years and years of analysis, fretting and rework, as authors are apt to do).

    Although it would be just like GRRM to fuck with fans like he does the storylines, anything other than “books before film” is simply fan fic (which may indeed be good, but it is still fan fic). :

    Long live Willas and Garlan and Strong Belwas!

  135. Eleanor
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Ho-mofo-dor!

    We’re getting closer to Victarion!

    Can somebody please explain to me why this particular Iron Islander is interesting? I groan every time I see a dull, dull chapter including him. I don’t find his brother interesting either but at least I see why other people might.

  136. Greenjones
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    Despite all that talk from him about having to write faster now with the show and all, that tidbit from his publisher would seem to prove otherwise. Goldarnit.

  137. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    Eleanor,

    You are probably confusing Vic with Aeron. Aeron is the intensely dull, boring POV while Vic is the “dumb as a stump”, badass brute which gets a number of cool action scenes. And his thoughts are hilarious in general, IIRC.

  138. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    Eleanor: Can somebody please explain to me why this particular Iron Islander is interesting? I groan every time I see a dull, dull chapter including him. I don’t find his brother interesting either but at least I see why other people might.

    I read him as a parody on typical fantasy vikings. He’s so horrible, it’s hilarious, something like that.

    I’m not sure he was planned like that, because his AFFC chapters appear a lot more seriously, but in ADWD, with the monkeys and sacrificing people to two gods just to be sure and all that? Definitely satire.

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    I feel kind of sorry for Aeron, in a way? I mean, yeah, he’s nuts, and lives in some hovel on the beach and braids his hair with seaweed, but I think first his brother dying because of that dumb knife game and then the imprisonment/near drowning (or actual drowning? Who knows! *dun, dun*) really did a few numbers on him.

  139. Eleanor
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:32 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    Eleanor,

    You are probably confusing Vic with Aeron. Aeron is the intensely dull, boring POV while Vic is the “dumb as a stump”, badass brute which gets a number of cool action scenes. And his thoughts are hilarious in general, IIRC.

    Uh, no. No I’m not.

  140. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    We shall see. I think the publisher is being a tad pessimistic considering he had to go through GRRM’s ADWD craziness. Other comments from the likes of Liam Cunningham and Roy Dotrice suggest that GRRM thinks he can do it, which means something for sure. I don’t think a 2015 release date is completely out of the picture.

  141. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    *fingers crossed*

    By now it would be a relief for everyone, GRRM most of all.

  142. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    Eleanor,

    Then we’ll agree to disagree. Vic wasn’t the most interesting character, but I never found him boring.

  143. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    Yes, this is GRRM’s life work, he won’t give up without a fight.

  144. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:53 am | Permalink

    Ned Dayne – the kid who is Beric’s squire in the books – remembers her, though, so I think she exists. And the name, which is Northern, and these rumours Davos hears about a fisherman’s daughter being the mother of Ned Stark’s bastard – I think the simplest explanation is that the Daynes had a Northern wetnurse, probably someone Ned introduced to Ashara when she was pregnant out of wedlock. That would explain why she was there when Ned arrived to tell Ashara about Arthur and give her the sword – and fairly likely had a baby with him, who happened to need a nurse.


    Of course, in that version she doesn’t know precisely who the mother is, but she definitely knows who isn’t.

    I don’t think that Wylla as a name is distinctivly Northern. I think it’s more likely one of the old names that are used across Westeros. Ned Dayne could have lied about her existence, you know give a shoot-out to Arya and she if she get’s the truth. IIRC when she says she never heared of it, Gendry comes barging in and Edric takes the chance at taking a hike. It wouldn’t surprise me if Edric knew the truth and is currently chilling with uncle Howland and aunt Ashara at Greywater Watch (they were last seen going into the Neck so that tells you something)

    As always here’s my inner Cato:

    Furthermore I believe that only Mads Mikkelsen can give us both the Euron we deserve and the one we need!

  145. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:03 am | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Veltigar,

    Props for your Mid Roman Republic History reference. Cato the Elder was a character. In the unlikelihood of Mikkelsen not being cast are you prepared to fall on your sword like his Caesar hating descendant?

    My sword is made out of premium plastic so yes, I’m prepared to do the unthinkable in case Mads doesn’t get cast :p

    Ashara D:
    Veltigar,

    Thanks for the shout out! Background about my family is what I REALLY want from tWoW.
    Love this theory as well. One of many possible journeys I could have taken.
    Stay warm, all!

    I’m much obliged my Lady. This Ashara Dayne theorie answers so many questions, therefor I’ll do my utmost to support it. Give my regards to you hubbie Godot, I mean Howland (sorry, I always mix them up).

    And of course Cato:

    Furthermore, what we do in life echoes throughout eternity. Thus to make an impression in the afterlive D&D must cast Mads Mikkelsen for Euron.

  146. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:17 am | Permalink

    Victarion is one of my favorite characters (3th actually). For starters he’s the kind of voice you normally never get to hear in these stories, so it’s pretty great that GRRM gave him a distinct voice.

    Secondly, he’s a very simple character. Don’t get me wrong I love deep, moody and complex characters as well (Jon and Stannis are 1 and 2. And Jaime is 4), but from time to time I need a break and a Victarion chapter gives me just that. It’s like Sail, fight, kill, sacrifice and then repeat.

    Thirdly, his chapters are hilariously funny. Everything from his anger to the monkeys to I’ll sail the Dothraki Sea get’s me every single time. His chapters are the funniest in the books (although Cersei does her best to surpass him).

    On top of that, Vic is an absolute beast. Badass with a capital B. It’s nice to see a character actually doing shit instead of plotting and sitting behind a table.

    And finally, GRRM has written Victarion very sympathetically and he hasn’t made a monster out of him. Quite the opposite actually, Victarion is all about doing the right thing, sadly he’s been brought up in Ironborn culture which is very violent and hostile. If Victarion had been born in the Stark household he would have been one different man. I also sympathise with the fact that he’s not particularly bright and has had the misfortune to grow up in such a dysfunctional family (I like Euron well enough, but I would be half-way to Mexico in less than 5 seconds if they told me he was to be my brother).

    Also Cato:

    Do or do not D&D, there is no try. Cast Mads Mikkelsen you must, save the universe you will. Bad grammar I have

  147. OldeCrone
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    The BBC wrote the end bit for the 1990s show “Wives and Daughters” – they had to because the author Mrs Gaskell died before finishing the source novel, but she had told a friend how it was to end. Chaucer never finished the Canterbury Tales – originally each pilgrim was to tell two tales. Zola I believe wrote less Rougon-Macart novels than he intended. I sincerely hope GRRM does finish the book series but as I said on another thread he is not a struggling writer and so does not have financial pressure on him to do so. I would accept D&D finishing the show story if push comes to shove but as a very reluctant second choice. I want the books to be finished in a timely manner (though GRRM time seems to be a different time to the one I live in – and I don’t just mean the difference between New Mexico time and Greenwich Mean Time).

  148. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: And finally, GRRM has written Victarion very sympathetically and he hasn’t made a monster out of him. Quite the opposite actually, Victarion is all about doing the right thing, sadly he’s been brought up in Ironborn culture which is very violent and hostile. If Victarion had been born in the Stark household he would have been one different man.

    I’m not sure he writes him sympathetically, but we might just get different signals from the text. As for being a monster or not – yes, I think he is one, due to his culture, and due to the fact that he is not clever enough to question or even reject its more problematic sides (i.e. if I’m so sad about having killed my wife, maybe I shouldn’t have in the first place). He’s made by Ironborn culture like Cersei, Walder Frey and the Mountain are made by Westerosi culture, and like in their case, that’s an explanation for his behaviour, but ultimately, not an excuse.

    I really think GRRM is making a point with this character, and it’s not that he is badass; it’s that his society will turn a badass warrior like Victarion into a monster, because it encourages only his brutality, and views anything that tempers or balances his violent urges as weakness.

  149. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    OldeCrone,

    it’s maybe an unusual comparison, but Japanese animation does this all the time, actually. Anime and Manga often have different storylines and endings, because the shows are usually finished earlier than the comics. And GoT the show can’t wait forever, because they won’t be able to keep the actors and crew that long without working. It’s much too expensive.

  150. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Satin:
    OldeCrone,

    it’s maybe an unusual comparison, but Japanese animation does this all the time, actually. Anime and Manga often have different storylines and endings, because the shows are usually finished earlier than the comics. And GoT the show can’t wait forever, because they won’t be able to keep the actors and crew that long without working.It’s much too expensive.

    But there’s a problem in doing a different ending for the show. It automatically proves what won’t happen in the books considering D&D know in detail about how many storylines end up. Also, there’s the issue that the story is being set up and it leads to a very particular place, especially by the end of season 5, and it will be very hard to completely disregard the book material. As it is now, I doubt the show will ever branch off from the books to do its own thing, at least not until the very last season (they can create their own ending I guess, but it really doesn’t matter at that point). If the show overtakes the books, it’s going to be based on what GRRM told DD&B.

  151. TimeforTravel
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck: You do know that GRRM already told D&D the general plot outlines of TWoW and ADoS, right?

    Yeah, general plotlines, I know. But there’s a huge difference in general plotlines and a full book with dialogue, atmosphere and details.

  152. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    hmm, you’re right, I hadn’t thought of that.

    I guess there’s still difference in the details… I mean, first time readers will be a bit astonished at Arya’s storyline in the books, for instance. It’s quite a bit different after all.

    I don’t know, it just doesn’t bother me that much I guess? I’ll still read the books when they come out, whether I know the ending or not. If only to see what happens to the book versions of the characters.

  153. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    Same. Watching the first two seasons of the show didn’t make the books less enjoyable to me.

  154. Shmofo
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    A bit of off-topic, but,

    does anyone know when the writing team starts to work on the next season (season 5 now). Did they already start, or they start in spring, I knew this, but forgot.

  155. jentario
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Shmofo,

    They probably have it all mapped out by now. They already know what they’re going to do with season 5, roughly at least. We can assume that they’ll start working on the scripts soon enough, maybe they already have.

  156. Greenjones
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Game-of-Thrones-The-Complete-Third-Season-Blu-ray/69994/#Review

    There’ll be a Roose Bolton history and lore segment. Enough said.

  157. Shmofo
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    Shmofo,

    They probably have it all mapped out by now. They already know what they’re going to do with season 5, roughly at least. We can assume that they’ll start working on the scripts soon enough, maybe they already have.

    Yeah, thank you. I assumed the same, but I remember I learned a more detailed explanation of the (script) writing process, maybe an interview with Bryan Cogman?, and there it was explained how they work and when they start different “phases” of writing, if I remember correctly they start with meetings already in November (?), finishing the scripts by February (?), or something like this. Somebody, somewhere knows/remembers this details…

    Obviously, I’m interested in these details due to the writers (soon) delving into uncharted territory, better put: into unwritten story.

  158. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Game-of-Thrones-The-Complete-Third-Season-Blu-ray/69994/#Review

    There’ll be a Roose Bolton history and lore segment. Enough said.

    Holly shit the line-up for the History and Lore looks awesome :D

    Old Ghis & Slaver’s Bay (Jorah Mormont )
    House Reed (Meera Reed)
    House Bolton (Roose Bolton)
    House Frey (Catelyn Stark)
    House Tully (The Blackfish)
    The Lord of Light (Thoros of Myr)
    Wargs and the Sight (Bran Stark)
    The Red Keep (King Joffrey)
    Robert’s Rebellion (Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys)
    The North (Jon Snow)
    The Reach (Margaery Tyrell)
    The Riverlands (The Blackfish)
    The Stormlands (Brienne of Tarth)
    The Westerlands (Tywin Lannister)
    The Vale (Petyr Baelish)

    Now, all they have to do is cast Mads as Euron and this is a very good day

  159. jentario
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    All of it looks good. Damnit, I want the first two GoT DVDs now :(

  160. jentario
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    What if I tell you that Mads would be a terrible casting choice for Euron? What would you say then? Huh?!

  161. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    Awesome review, and that whole History and Lore feature sounds like it’ll be as good as the previous two. I’m just surprised that they put only the finale and the extras on disc 5, when Blu-rays market themselves as having much greater capacity than DVDs (which can hold at least 3 hours of footage). I bought the DVDs because the house I lived at didn’t have a Blu-ray, so that’s why it was surprising. And now thanks to the blu-ray at the new house, they still look pretty cool.

    I’ll buy the Blu-rays when the complete seasons 1-8 or 1-9 or whatever it is in the end comes out in Spring 2019/20.

  162. Greenjones
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I just get the DVDs. The other stuff leaks online anyway.

    But a Roose Bolton voiceover. That. Is. Gold.

  163. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    Same, I guess. It will be one longass binge.

  164. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Great list, but they just need one for Guest Right and First Night and other customs old and current in the timeline.

    Edit: Oh, and Giants and Free Folk, but given that they’d used Ygritte or Mance as narrator, that may be a blessing. Tormund would be better though, provided his voice doesn’t turn it into a Coors Light ad.

  165. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    I heard Mads tried out for Patchface and he got the part. Then there was a scheduling conflict and the character was scrapped.

    Bring back Mads as Patchface! Jason Isaacs is the one true Euron. ;)

  166. Lollius Palicanus
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Veltigar
    The North (Jon Snow)
    The Reach (Margaery Tyrell)
    The Riverlands (The Blackfish)
    The Stormlands (Brienne of Tarth)
    The Westerlands (Tywin Lannister)
    The Vale (Petyr Baelish)

    Already looking forward to

    Dorne (Oberyn Martell)

  167. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Lollius Palicanus: Already looking forward to

    Dorne (Oberyn Martell)

    I’m looking forward to “The Sack of King’s Landing”, told by Gregor Clegane.

    “I killed her screaming whelp, then I crushed his f***ing skull in, like this!” etc. etc.

    Dorne is definitely one for Season 4, with features on Martell and the region’s ability to avoid conquest by the Targaryens for decades because of their harsh, rugged terrain. Styr for a Thenns piece too please, Bryan.

  168. loki
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    “Jon Meets Mance,” “Edmure, Robb and The Blackfish,” “Tywin and Pycelle,” “Small Council Discusses Wildling Threat” and “Jon Thinks About Escaping.”

    “jon meets mance” is the ‘kingdom of the dead’ one, i presume. so, no “tormund reports to mance” and “petyr in the eyrie” scenes then. hmmm. season 4, maybe? please?

  169. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Satin: I’m not sure he was planned like that, because his AFFC chapters appear a lot more seriously, but in ADWD, with the monkeys and sacrificing people to two gods just to be sure and all that? Definitely satire.

    For some reason, I like him and don’t find him dull. He’s clearly a brutish moron, but who cares. The monkeys to me come across like an homage to the end of Aguirre, the Wrath of God, with this insane conquerer’s last followers being a bunch of feral monkeys, and I LOVE Moqorro, who is one of the better bad-asses of the latter book, and a character I hope we see in coming seasons. The way they’ve decided to include this minor Iron Islander Ralf Kenning – even if it’s one episode – makes me think that we will get Victarion and Euron next year; Aeron’s a longshot, but one never knows.

  170. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    loki,

    They definitely mentioned Kate Dickie filmed scenes for season 3 at some point (my guess is it was for Lysa’s reaction to the Red Wedding), so yes, maybe they held it back deliberately for season 4. No mention of Lino (Sweetrobin) though anywhere, but I hope he comes back because he was annoying and funny at once. If he does return though, they should amp up his condition to include seizures, because so far all we know of his condition is he’s slightly pale and gets out of breath just from shouting.

  171. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Hand waving and high level plotlines are one thing, but the devil’s beauty is in the details. Magic like “Jaime Lannister send his regards” or “Tywin does not shit gold” or “Wherever whores go” or Sam the Slayer or the building of the massive KL chain, or antler men or the “Rains of Castamere” or“You murdered her children” or “For the watch” or honey-locusts or snow castles or “Sound the attack!” does not come out in a two hour session with the author.

    This much is true; it’s why I hope we get TWoW before Season 6. The showrunners are doing a great job, but they’d be inventing a lot rather than inventing “some” things. Either way, D&D have all the material they need for Season 5 and part of Season 6, and WoW will probably be more or less ready by then. I hope…

  172. Shmofo
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: This much is true; it’s why I hope we get TWoW before Season 6. The showrunners are doing a great job, but they’d be inventing a lot rather than inventing “some” things. Either way, D&D have all the material they need for Season 5 and part of Season 6, and WoW will probably be more or less ready by then. I hope…

    It won’t be ready, and if writing of the season 6 starts already in winter 2014, we need GRRM in the writing team (not just doing one episode, but much more involved). That would be the best case scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

  173. OldeCrone
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I’d love to see a part for Jason Isaac’s onscreen daughter (Millie Innes) from “Case Histories” – don’t know if you get that show in the States. I was trying to think of a stroppy teenager she could play – I thought of Lady Lance but she is too pale to pass for Pedro Pascal’s daughter.

    Just editing this to say I put spoilers around a couple of pieces here and I was a good girl or a good person of “mature” years and didn’t leave a gap after clicking the spoiler markers but though they show up in the comment before submission they haven’t shown up after I posted the comment. I am flummoxed as to why this is happening.

  174. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Agreed. Isaacs will be perfect as Euron. No way we’re getting Mads Mikkelssen for that role or even a bit role like Victarion. Especially when they film Hannibal and GoT so close to each other.

  175. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Rygar,

    Agreed. Isaacs will be perfect as Euron. No way we’re getting Mads Mikkelssen for that role or even a bit role like Victarion. Especially when they film Hannibal and GoT so close to each other.

    He’s 50 – Malahide is 69, but he’s a younger brother, so they can ugly him up a bit. He would be perfect, and I agree with those who don’t see Mads because he’s starting to take off as an actor and busy with the success of Hannibal.

  176. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Eleanor: Can somebody please explain to me why this particular Iron Islander is interesting? I groan every time I see a dull, dull chapter including him. I don’t find his brother interesting either but at least I see why other people might.

    Believe me, I often feel the same way….I don’t adore Vic but he is a fairly interesting POV for the plight of the Ironborn. Somewhat dull but bold (as is/was Theon, I guess). Veltigar & GjS said it best…sort of a unique Viking leader perspective.

    For some reason, GRRM chose 3 different Ironborn PoVs (an overreaching and fallen son, an ambitious daughter and a proven, weathered battle commander) to supplement this story. He obviously has a plan for them. Hopefully, Vic will fare better than Quentyn, who was a discarded PoV (we are given to believe)….but the way he took the Shield islands, the way he is handling Moqorro, the way GRRM seems to be enabling him as the pathway for Dany to attack Westeros, and his dragon horn connundrum…all that is more than mildly interesting, imho.

    I can only guess how he comes across from a female perspective, given his past “treatment” of his wife after Euron had his way with her. That is tough…and I won’t defend him on that regard. But as I’ve stated before, no character in these books is truly innocent, not even Sansa.

  177. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Jason Isaacs is also a great if underused actor. I was one of the few people who followed Awake and his work in Brotherhood is superlative.

  178. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: But as I’ve stated before, no character in these books is truly innocent, not even Sansa.

    Hodor.

  179. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Jason Isaacs is also a great if underused actor. I was one of the few poe who followed Awake and his work in Brotherhood is superlative.

    He’s even good in Friends with Money, too. But he seems to be best utilized as a complete jerkwad.

  180. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: Hodor.

    Ahhh! I’ve slighted my own father!

    Just wait until we discover what “Hodor” really means…. :)
    (GRRM has indeed implied that is coming…)

  181. Boojam
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer: Yara

    Yeah for the nth time where does this leave YaraAsha?
    Note : from the HBO teaser (one shot of Theon) have a sequence from ADWD been brought forward to season 4?
    Passing odd for the YaraAsha story.

  182. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Boojam,

    Are you catching up? Because I think we have come up with a solid and logical theory for that a bit later in the thread.

  183. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I bet it’s some secret door in Winterfell called the Ho’ Door, that leads to a hidden room where the hookers of Winterfell are secretly plotting to take the Iron Throne.

    Hodor walked in on them when he was small, so they used their T&A to render him dumb and sent him running off. He’s been trying to warn everyone ever since.

  184. Annara Snow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Veltigar:
    There are only two real possibilities for Gendry:

    1. As a companion to Brienne and Pod. I think that’s unlikely, because he doesn’t really add anything in that storyline. He would just take lines away from Pod imo.

    2. To replace yet another bastard of Bobby B namely Mya Stone in the Vale. I have speculated before that after LS trial of Jaime in tWoW, the surviving members of the BwB (including Gendry) will be pardoned by Jaime if they swear fealthy to Brienne and escort her to the Vale (an escort she’ll need with the Clans on the war path).

    They could easily skip Gendry’s stint with the BwB and sent him to the Vale already. That would save them the expense of adding yet another bastard, give Gendry something to do and have him exchange some lines with another main character

    They could also built up Gendry’s chivalry through this (something which is hard when Brienne and TriPod are stealing the limelight) and contrast him nicely to Harry the Heir when that douche is finally included.

    They could also built up something of a budding romance between the two of them. Gendry could believe that the new humble Alayne could give him something that Milady Arya could never give him. And Sansa would like his strong protective presence

    And D&D can really throw a plot bomb if they decide to include Jaime’s line in the books when he sends Brienne away to search for Sansa. IIRC Jaime remarks that he hopes that Sansa has hid herself away somewhere, forgot who she was and married a blacksmith

    After that line cut to a scene (preferably their first meaningful encounter) between Gendry and Sansa. Imagine the Twitter storm that would start!Plus a Gendry-Sansa pairing might also be in the works in the books, so they might be tipping us of oh so subtely

    Now my impression of Cato the Elder


    How the heck would Gendry get to the Vale, save with Brienne or Jaime, who won’t be there for a long time yet, certainly not until Sansa’s storyline comes to its next stage? You came up with that entire unlikely plotline just to justify your crackship, didn’t you?

    As for the Sansa/Gendry shipping, all I have to say is: *facepalm*
    That “pairing” is nothing but a fanfic crackship and is definitely not “in the works in the books”. Anyone who’s read the books knows that it’s Arya/Gendry that’s in the works, and has been since book 2, as well as Sansa/Sandor, which has been ‘in the works’ since book 1, while Sansa and Gendry have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Sansa/Gendry is going to remain the stuff of fanfic for those who want to see some ridiculous love triangle with Sansa and Arya fighting over the same boy. (Really? Really?) *double facepalm* I know that the show can deviate from the books, but anyone who hopes for that kind of deviation should just forget it, IMO.

    “IIRC Jaime remarks that he hopes that Sansa has hid herself away somewhere, forgot who she was and married a blacksmith”
    Oh right, that’s the only justification that the fans of this crackship can come up with. Sorry, but that’s really weak. If GRRM was tipping the readers off to something, he was playing with the irony of Jaime saying that one of Cat’s daughters “has just been wed” and the other one should better forget who she is and marry a blacksmith or a fat inkeep; meaning Arya and Sansa, respectively; but in fact, Arya has not been wed, so one can read it as “one (Sansa) has just been wed, and the other one (Arya) should better forget who she is and marry a sturdy blacksmith and a fat inkeep”. And Arya, who is currently supposed to forget who she is and be no-one, happens to be the one who knows a sturdy blacksmith boy and a fat boy who’s currently working at an inn.

    But hey, if that’s the reason for a projected Sansa/Gendry ship, maybe you should start speculating on Sansa/Hot Pie, too…

    Satin:
    Veltigar,

    if that happens – and I think it’s good speculation! – it won’t only be twitter that explodes. I know two sets of shippers that would be very unhappy with that development. I will have to remember to get the popcorn in case you turn out to be right.

    As well as anyone who likes good storytelling. Don’t worry, you’ll save money intended for that popcorn.

    It’s a “good” speculation if by “good” you mean “utterly ridiculous and based on nothing but wishful thinking”.

  185. Jordan
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    My theory is that since being named Walder means you are probably evil, since Hodor is not evil, it makes sense (both in-universe and out) that he doesn’t go by the name Walder.

  186. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Jordan,

    Alternatively, Hodor is the opposite of Rodoh which means absolutely nothing :)

  187. Annara Snow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Thanks ;D I’ll be eating popcorn right there with you :D the Sansan shippers should probably give up anyway. Even if Sansan is a thing in the books it will never happen on the show.

    Yes, and Talisa and Ros will take the place of fake!Arya. Probably at the same time.

  188. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow: As well as anyone who likes good storytelling. Don’t worry, you’ll save money intended for that popcorn.

    It’s a “good” speculation if by “good” you mean “utterly ridiculous and based on nothing but wishful thinking”.

    lol. Fine by me, too. I mainly care that people stay alive until the epilogue (*fingers crossed*), not who dates whom.

  189. Annara Snow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    tysnow:
    yoo-hoo! Winter is Coming to North Florida Tuesday and Wednesday, Ice and Snow, unfortunately no Dany or Mel though. To quote former President GW Bush, “Bring it on.”

    Glad to hear Moat Callin has made it in, whether in book form or D&D alternate adaption.
    Those here on WiC who stated that perhaps Yara/Asha gets to the Dreadfort only to find Theon gone, just may be correct.
    Concerning Theon, Ramsay and his bride, the casual viewers know show Arya is 13, therefore will HBO be daring enough to show Ramsay’s wedding rape of a 13 y.o. fake Arya?

    Jeyne is Sansa’s age, therefore she’d be 15 in the show.

  190. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Sansan shippers should probably give up anyway. Even if Sansan is a thing in the books it will never happen on the show.

    Annara Snow

    (*raises hand*) I’ll take SanSan for the win….Beauty & the Beast all the way, baby!

  191. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Except for Brotherhood where he is a complete badass gangster.

  192. JD
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    For anyone who cares, blu-ray.com just posted the review for the Game of Thrones Season 3 Blu Ray, and just like last year, and the year before, they are naming it one of the best blu rays ever!

    http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Game-of-Thrones-The-Complete-Third-Season-Blu-ray/69994/#Review

    Also on there, the deleted scenes have been revealed, Five scenes are available: “Jon Meets Mance,” “Edmure, Robb and The Blackfish,” “Tywin and Pycelle,” “Small Council Discusses Wildling Threat” and “Jon Thinks About Escaping.”

    No sign of the Lysa scenes Kat Dickie filmed last year but hopefully that means they will make there way into S4 and werent entirely scrapped.

  193. Annara Snow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Satin: lol. Fine by me, too. I mainly care that people stay alive until the epilogue (*fingers crossed*), not who dates whom.

    Who “dates” whom (that word is weird in the ASOAIF context!) is a big part of the story and characterization. The show has changed some things like the personality and background of Robb’s wife or Shae, but they were never going to do things like, say, decide that Catelyn is going to have a passionate affair with Littlefinger, or, for instance, decide “Hey, you know, maybe this relationship between Jon and Ygritte we have been setting up throughout season 2 is not such a good idea, let’s drop it and have Jon decide that Ygritte is too bitchy and hook up with Gilly instead. Gilly is going to decide she wants someone slimmer and manlier. A love triangle! That’s what we need! Imagine the kids wearing the Team Jon and Team Sam T-shirts!”

  194. Jen@House Stark
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer: n

    :rofl: You are killin’ me, Hand

  195. Jen@House Stark
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Jason Isaacs = Crow’s Eye ftw, please

  196. Pau
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    zerowolf:
    Mmm…This all points to the fact that HBO have no intention of waiting for the books to appear. They are going to wrap this thing up after six seasons.
    My reasons for thinking this?
    1.Frank Doelger ( Executive Producer ) is on record as saying he expects the series to last six seasons.
    2.True Blood is the first time that HBO have taken anything to seven seasons and most people think that has probably outstayed it’s welcome – I wouldn’t like that to happen to GoT.
    3.We know that D & D spent two weeks with GRRM in Sante Fe last year quizzing the author on his perceived ending for the novels. Why so early?
    4.Does anyone on here seriously believe that Martin will finish this tale? All the evidence would suggest otherwise. He’s obviously painted himself into a corner here. The Others / White Walkers only appear every thousand years when there is an extremely LONG winter, yet it only arrived at the end of ADWD. The timing is off. How can he square that circle?
    5.His work is heavily influenced by The War Of The Roses. Did British history cease when Henry came to the throne? No. In effect there can be no ‘end’ to this tale. What D & D can do is bring several of the story arcs to a satisfactory conclusion.That seems to be the route they are taking.
    I love the books and I hope I’m wrong but I now see the show as a very enjoyable but separate entity.

    There’s no way they’re wrapping up this in 6 seasons. I’m willing to bet money on it

    Ours is the Fury: No they weren’t. That was just speculation.

    Wasn’t there a video shot from a car of a passerby in Iceland showing Brienne and someone else? I recall people thinking it was Gendry, when it clearly wasn’t, or the other way around…can’t remember. But if it wasn’t Gendry that’s probably where the confussion comes from.

    GreatJon of Slumber: More to the point, it was speculation based on photos that made Pod look a LOT like Joe Dempsie, haircut and all.

    Ok that was it

    Emperor Cronos:
    Winds of Winter is almost certainly years away according to the British publisher, and the show’s not going beyond 8 seasons, so my guess is it passes the books next year.
    http://whiteharbour.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/game-of-thrones-uk-publisher-the-winds-of-winter-release-is-almost-certainly-years-away/

    “26 January 2014 Update:

    George R.R. Martin’s UK editor, Jane Johnson, has confirmed that The Winds of Winter will not be published in 2014, but that late 2015 remains a possibility.”

  197. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Who “dates” whom (that word is weird in the ASOAIF context!) is a big part of the story and characterization.

    Oh yes, no doubt about that – think only about all the secret mooning over each other that went on in the past – Robert who loves Lyanna who loves Rhaegar who loves his harp etc. It’s obviously important, but it’s possible to read it without being a shipper, and I honestly don’t care if Gendry ends up with Arya or Sansa or Jon or whoever. I like the character, but I’m more interested in his family relations and his social background – and I’d like him to get a storyline where he’s not just a sidekick. Buuut to each their own, and I don’t want to start a debate about this, so please let’s just not. Ship or not ship at your heart’s desire, is my motto.

  198. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    Pau: Wasn’t there a video shot from a car of a passerby in Iceland showing Brienne and someone else? I recall people thinking it was Gendry, when it clearly wasn’t, or the other way around…can’t remember. But if it wasn’t Gendry that’s probably where the confussion comes from.

    That must have been what Hand of the Kingslayer was talking about somewhere above… apparently people thought Daniel Portman looked like Joe Dempsie (still a mystery to me how).

  199. Sean C.
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic:
    No mention of Lino (Sweetrobin) though anywhere, but I hope he comes back because he was annoying and funny at once.

    He and Sophie Turner exchanged tweets about meeting soon during filming, so he’s back.

    I wouldn’t expect to see the Lysa stuff that was cut from this season in the next season. Scenes generally can’t be moved around like that, and particularly not from season to season.

  200. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    That’s good news I guess, given how much the of Vale story is being moved forward into season 4. I’m looking forward to his reaction to “Sansa the Giant-Slayer”.

    But if the scenes aren’t being moved, then I wonder why they’d leave them out of the DVD extras? If it was the Blu-ray they were reviewing then it must be the complete package.

  201. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    Yeah, it is. In their defense, it was at a time where everyone was overanalyzing every bit of news, and Pod was definitely pulling a Gendric face.

  202. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Pau: “26 January 2014 Update:

    George R.R. Martin’s UK editor, Jane Johnson, has confirmed that The Winds of Winter will not be published in 2014, but that late 2015 remains a possibility.”

    Translated from GRRM-speak, that means March 2017.

  203. mariamb
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Pau:
    “26 January 2014 Update:

    George R.R. Martin’s UK editor, Jane Johnson, has confirmed that The Winds of Winter will not be published in 2014, but that late 2015 remains a possibility.”

    Seriously? Ugh! So the show will pass the books…

  204. Blind Beth
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone think this would work for the Yara/Ironborn/Ramsay plotline?

    - Yara and company make it to the Dreadfort and lay siege, demand Ramsey release Theon or be starved out.
    - Ramsey and Yara meet under a white flag and talk smack for a whole scene. (This is more of a hope than a prediction.)
    - Balon dies; news of this and impending Kingsmoot reaches Yara, she feels she must go home and handle it, tells Ramsey “this isn’t over” and leaves many of her men behind to keep up the siege.
    - Ramsey lets a little time pass, then uses Theon/Reek to do exactly what happens in the books at this point. Flaying ensues.
    - Other possibility: Ramsey tells Theon/Reek to pretend he has escaped and opened the gates for the Ironborn to sack the Dreadfort, but in reality Reek is leading them straight into Ramsey’s trap. Flaying ensues.

    I think this would be a neat way of keeping the basic events in the book (Theon’s betrayal of his own people, Ramsey being scheme-y and flay-ey, immediate Ironborn threat to the Boltons removed) without having to bring Victarion in yet and without having to drag anyone to Moat Cailin/The Neck.

    Admittedly, it is REALLY far from the Iron Islands to the Dreadfort. The main reason I think Yara will actually return home for the Kingsmoot is because past seasons have not been super realistic about travel times, and I think this trend will continue. Also, I really want the Kingsmoot scene in S5, fully intact. Pinecones!

  205. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    You will have to explain the AD+HR=MR&JR. Ive never heard that before and I can not see how that is very likely. But im interested.

  206. Dutch maester
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink
  207. Arkash
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth,

    Very interesting idea ! Could work.

    Anyway, anything to get a really great Kingsmoot is great ! And this could make interesting TV !

  208. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    Dutch maester,

    From the little I remember of Portugueze, it seems like this interview confirms (or at least implies) that Mord will be back this season. Which is interesting.

  209. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Believe me, I often feel the same way….I don’t adore Vic but he is a fairly interesting POV for the plight of the Ironborn. Somewhat dull but bold (as is/was Theon, I guess).Veltigar & GjS said it best…sort of a unique Viking leader perspective.

    For some reason, GRRM chose 3 different Ironborn PoVs (an overreaching and fallen son, an ambitious daughter and a proven, weathered battle commander) to supplement this story.He obviously has a plan for them. Hopefully, Vic will fare better than Quentyn, who was a discarded PoV (we are given to believe)….but the way he took the Shield islands, the way he is handling Moqorro, the way GRRM seems to be enabling him as the pathway for Dany to attack Westeros, and his dragon horn connundrum…all that is more than mildly interesting, imho.

    Wasn’t there a POV from the Damphair in the prologue, maybe to AFFC? The drowned priest or something??

    I like Victarion. I don’t really understand what all the raving is about Crow’s Eye (and I’m not stepping into the pile of casting speculation poo)… just sayin. Crow’s Eye, while surely ruthless, and likely has something up his sleeve, is really just a mystery at this point. Maybe that’s the allure. With Vic, however, we have his story… we have insight into his past, his motivations, his internal battles with both subservience to his brother and leadership of his fleet. And jumping onto the deck running his axe thru that young knight in the shield islands looking for glory…. pure badass.

    I have a feeling he may end up saving Meereen, but also may end up enslaving a dragon or two with that bloody burning horn of his…. I don’t, however, see him making the trip back to westeros with Dany. SHE may make the trip, with his fleet. We shall see.

    Stoked for the histories and lore! Wonder if we’ll get more details on Howland and perhaps a quick rundown of the TOJ in the Reed one…

  210. bufkus
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    I think i’m going to have to avoid watching next season, since it’s clear they are going to start including TWoW storylines for Theon.

  211. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: He’s 50 – Malahide is 69, but he’s a younger brother, so they can ugly him up a bit. He would be perfect, and I agree with those who don’t see Mads because he’s starting to take off as an actor and busy with the success of Hannibal.

    And he has an icy cold hotness to him that fits the character. Couple that with great acting and we have a winner. And he’s a Brit.

    Ooh. The Isaacs army is taking over!

  212. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Maybe he’ll get strutting around the Eyrie in fine silks and sporting gold dentures, just to remind the readers/viewers that Tyrion gave him all the gold on his person. Ciaran was the perfect Mord, so it’s nice to know he could be back too.

    Now we only need is Mya and ‘Randa to show up, but I doubt we’ll be seeing either, given that we already have a Myranda at the Dreadfort.

  213. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister: Wasn’t there a POV from the Damphair in the prologue, maybe to AFFC?The drowned priest or something??

    Yes! How the heck could I forget? Not 2, not 3, but 4 ironborn POVs!

    Reminds me of something:
    “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise. Fear and surprise…two chief weapons! Fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Three chief weapons….er….among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope! ……Um, I’ll come in again…”

  214. Wolverine
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    King Tommen,

    I agree, as I also believe that it is Yara that Mel is speaking to in the new teaser (about how the only real hell is the one they are presently in). I have read many who believe that Mel is speaking to Gilly (base solely on the blond hair).

    Gilly has the mentality of a ten year old, so I cannot imagine Mel speaking in these terms to her (she would be speaking down, like talking to a child). Besides, Gilly does not wear her bangs back in a braid, Yara does. The person Mel is talking to certainly has her blond hair pulled back in a braid.

    If I’m right, Yara will encounter Stannis in the fourth season (possibly be captured). I’m not sure how she will return to Pyke (Kingsmoot) between going to rescue Theon and somehow ending up with Stannis and Mel? It may happen, but it will be a quick Kingsmoot. That’s why I believe that your assessment is correct.

  215. Annara Snow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Dutch maester:
    Valyrian Plastic,

    His return for season 4 has actually been confirmed recently! (Google translate:P)

    http://www.gameofthronesbr.com/2014/01/entrevistamos-lino-facioli-ator-que-interpreta-robin-arryn-em-game-of-thrones.html

    Holy cow, the actor playing Sweetrobin is now the same age as book!Sansa!

    We’re definitely not going to see him grope her the way he does in the book, it wouldn’t look harmless!

  216. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth,

    Well, we do know that Theon and Ramsay will meat Roose. It seems like the meeting will happen in the Riverlands considering we saw the Bolton sigil at Harrenhall and considering Roose is supposedly going to be a Wedding guest. There is a shot of Ramsay and Roose meeting up which looks similar to me like the Riverlands rather than the North. Also, the fact that what’s his face is a Moat Cailin charachter in the books and was only cast for one episode (very likely episode 8) makes it seem that he isn’t a constant companion of Yara’s, but a man of Moat Cailin. All in all, I expect the Yara-at-the-Dreadfort buisness to be done around the mid-season.

    One thing that could happen, though, is that Ramsay defeats Yara at the Dreadfort and forces her to retreat as far as Moat Cailin, where she will meet Victarion’s men. Maybe Balon already died. Maybe Victarion went home to claim the Seastone Chair. Either way, like the book, we don’t need anything more than a mention of Vic and it would also be a nice tie in to season 5. Maybe then, around episode 7/8 and after the whole Dreadfort buisness is over, Yara can get back to Pyke in time for season 5 to meet with Vic and the newly arrived Euron (meanwhile, Moat Cailin proceeds like the book). The travel time from Moat Cailin to Pyke is significantly shorter than another trip around the world, and the whole thing makes more sense than letting Yara dip her feet in the Dreadfort only to go back all the way back (which is rather pointless from a story standpoint).

    What I suggest is very logical and simple:
    - we know the Boltons will meet at the Riverlands, which means Moat Cailin will happen alongside the Yara buisness.
    - the arc would be a bit messy if it’s first about Yara vs Ramsay and then about random extra vs Ramsay. This unifies Moat Cailin and Yara’s attack into a season long arc
    - it makes Yara’s trek seem like a logical decision on the part of D&D, as what it does is tell an expanded version of the Moat Cailin story but with familiar faces (Yara) as opposed to random Ironborn. This helps the casual viewers connect the dots.
    - this fleshes out Yara alongside Theon and the Boltons, and will make the viewers root for her in the potential Kingsmoot
    - it sets up the Kingsmoot very well. Victarion is off to Pyke after Balon’s death (which may very well happen in episode 1/2 if D&D stick to the order of the leaches). We might even get a mention of Euron. Either way, we see a number of players heading to Pyke, setting up season 5′s arc

    This is the most sensible theory I can come up with. I know some people believe that Yara’s journey entirely rules out her being at the Kingsmoot but I don’t think that’s a fair thing to say. Her journey will be something that develops her as a character, and as long as it doesn’t consist of her turning around mid way or only just getting to the Dreadfort before going back… I think it’s possible. Giving her a whole season to spend in the North/Riverlands before returning home doesn’t seem insensible to me…

    The only other understandable alternative IMO is that Yara runs off to Deepwood Motte, now that evidence seems to negate the possibility of her being captured by Stannis. And thank god for that, Yara vs Stannis will be a fun action scene that season 5 will desperately need IMO (due to the lack of action that season).

  217. Boojam
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer: Boojam

    I read those, and so far have not seen a reasonable extrapolation for YaraAsha’s story… but maybe that’s just as well leaves something to find out from the show.
    As for Theon , that part of the story , if it’s from ADWD is kind of zero sum disjoint anyway so that’s all a wash.

  218. mariamb
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: And he has an icy cold hotness to him that fits the character. Couple that with great acting and we have a winner.And he’s a Brit.

    Ooh. The Isaacs army is taking over!

    Consider me part of Isaacs Army. Would love to see him as Euron. Maybe then I would be somewhat interested in him. Don’t care much for Euron or Victarion in the books. (Let’s not even discuss Aeron.) I’m hoping that whomever is cast in these roles can bring some nuance and depth to the characters.

  219. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I can roll with that.

  220. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    bufkus,

    What now? If anything, season 5 is the one you should consider not watching.

  221. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Yes! How the heck could I forget? Not 2, not 3, but 4 ironborn POVs!

    Reminds me of something:
    “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise. Fear and surprise…two chief weapons! Fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Three chief weapons….er….among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope! ……Um, I’ll come in again…”

    I’m not getting the reference :/ …Near fanatical devotion to the ….. drowned GOD? Is there a parallel between the Ironborn and the Spanish Inquisition that I have not heard?
    Over my head….

  222. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    - this fleshes out Yara alongside Theon and the Boltons, and will make the viewers root for her in the potential Kingsmoot…

    Interesting…and accolades to all who’ve attempted to wade through this new storyline.

    I feel that any Dreadfort or Moat Cailin battle is going to decimate the ironborn, regardless of Yara’s presence or not. She will need to escape from either the skirmish at the Dreadfort or the one at Moat Cailin, but to go back to Pyke with her tail between her legs will be absolute foolishness. She embarked on her adhoc adventure with a significant ironborn force and will fail…no one will respect her at Pyke, with or without a Kingsmoot. Her only option, given this new storyline, is to follow Theon/Reek to Barrowton/Winterfell (in the shadows, not as a captive, I hope). In any case, I doubt she will ever see Pyke again, sadly.

  223. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    mariamb,

    One thing is for certain, if they cast either one, then we will surely get the Dusky Woman. HBO needs to keep its T&A quota.

  224. Kyle
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: http://www.gameofthronesbr.com/2014/01/entrevistamos-lino-facioli-ator-que-interpreta-robin-arryn-em-game-of-thrones.html

    I’m hoping their scenes are included on the blu-ray, or used in S4.

    Hand of the Kingslayer: Mord

    Using Google Translate, I didn’t see that, just that he enjoyed the performance of Mord. It would be good to see him again, though.

  225. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,
    Just a Monty Python joke from the early 70s….I’m dating myself, I guess. Hopefully someone got it. :)

  226. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    They will cast the dusky woman even if Victarion and Euron are cut.

  227. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Aaah I see. Sounds like Monty Python, but really…. tho I respect the humor, I have not watched any Monty Python for 20 years?? Now I’m dating myself… which sounds, kinda weird actually.

    Blue! No red! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  228. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    That’s an interesting thing to note… But I will say that Yara will probably want to attend her father’s funeral, regardless of her ego. And if what I suggested will happen, she will have technically left her men behind in a VERY stable position considering the only reason Moat Cailin got taken was because of Theon duping her men. Otherwise, Moat Cailin is a solid place to sit down and destroy incoming enemies.

    I guess we’ll see though. I will be sad if she doesn’t make it to the Kingsmoot but I’ve already prepares myself for that. Hopefully they’ll at least have the Stannis vs Yara scene in season 5.

  229. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Kyle,

    To be honest, my Portuguese is probably even worse than Google Translate at this point, so I probably read it wrong.

  230. Andrew
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    If that article is accurate and Mord is returning for Season 4, I will bet you almost anything that he takes Marillon’s place in the Vale storyline. Positive. I was hoping he would be back in any case; that actor was hilarious.

  231. Blind Beth
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    I think he was just referring to how someone keeps thinking of more things (chief weapons, Ironborn POV’s).

  232. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    Agreed, and that scar was brutal, they really picked the right guy for the role. It’s odd how both he and Hodor have the same type of scar, even though Kristian’s is only there to cover up a tatoo of stars. I really hope they keep him around though, it would be interesting to see how Petyr reacts to his new-found taste for gold.

  233. Kyle
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Andrew:
    If that article is accurate and Mord is returning for Season 4, I will bet you almost anything that he takes Marillon’s place in the Vale storyline. Positive. I was hoping he would be back in any case; that actor was hilarious.

    That’s one of the best theories I’ve heard in a while. It makes perfect sense. And, Mord is practically a halfwit, so he can’t exactly defend himself. I would feel bad for him in that case, though! :(

  234. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    That makes sense. And… divine justice? He gets a taste of his own medicine.

    I don’t think we can confirm Mord for season 4 just yet, though. I only assumed that because Robin’s actor said that he liked Mord’s actor (and the list also included Lysa and Littlefinger), and I didn’t remember them having scenes together in the first season. It’s far from a confirmation, but we should keep an eye out for Mord.

    EDIT: I think I meant Poetic Justice and not Divine Justice… I should go to sleep :p

  235. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Though I’d love to see Mord return, if I can trust Google Translate Lino just said that he liked Ciaram’s performance, no mention of him in season 4.

    Anyway, great interview. I didn’t know he had auditioned for Bran the first time. And good that he’s so relaxed about the breastfeeding scene, I guess a lot of people were overreacting back then.

  236. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth,
    Sister Wrister,
    Lol! Yes…it’s hard to make a point when you forget all the contributing factors!
    For laughs…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

  237. Blind Beth
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    That makes sense. I was thinking Yara would basically borrow Little Finger’s Magic Carpet ™ to get back and forth from Pyke/Dreadfort, thus spending most of her screen time engaging Ramsay and reacting to her father’s death/impending Kingsmoot. Definitely don’t need a video travelog, lol. But it does make more geographic sense for her to attack, have to retreat to Moat Cailin, THEN hear about Balon, tell Ramsay “this isn’t over” and return overland to Pyke. Though in that case I’m not sure what happens to all her ships. Maybe the cabin boys valet them back to Pyke to meet her? Lol.

  238. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned,

    Do you think we can milk, I mean make, a new topic up from this information?

    We’ve had “Lora will flirt” and “Stannis hates sex”, so why not “Robin says breast is best” as well?

  239. Andrew
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Kyle,

    Thanks! It’s an idea I’ve been considering for a while. Glad to **maybe** get confirmation on it. It’s why I was never too bothered with what happened to Marillion on the show, as Mord could so very easily fill that function ( or anyone for that matter). GRRM’s complaints about the Butterfly Effect are so often overstated, as there are so many characters in the universe who could take over for people like Marillion and Mago when the time comes.

  240. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Mord was one of my favorite minor characters from Season 1. “NO GOLD! NO GOLD!”

    “Well, possession…is an abstract concept at times…”

  241. Annara Snow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Kyle: That’s one of the best theories I’ve heard in a while. It makes perfect sense. And, Mord is practically a halfwit, so he can’t exactly defend himself. I would feel bad for him in that case, though! :(

    If Mord takes Marillion’s place (i.e. is the guy LF will frame for Lysa’s murder), maybe Lysa, instead of trying to push Sansa through the moon door, orders Mord to do it, per a theory that has been brought up on the Forum of Ice and Fire (although the theory was not that Mord is that someone, but that Lysa orders someone to do it). The theory was an attempt to solve another problem – in the book, Lysa was stronger than Sansa because she was much heavier, but show!Lysa isn’t heavy, and show!Sansa looks stronger than her.

  242. Dolorous Ned
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    Sure! Once a fake boob’s been milked there’s no squirting the cream back up.

    Any people here who actually speak Portugese?

  243. Don't care
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Its kinda crazy but the house and lore stuff is maybe my favorite aspect of the show. Its usually the first stuff I watch when I get the Blu Rays. I loved it back in the first season before I read the books. Clarified so much stuff. The voice acting is always amazing and the illustrations are wonderful. Always get goosepimples.

  244. DeadAntelope
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I think that LF’s spy from S3 will replace Marillion as Marillion got his tongue cut off in S1 and it’s been said that the spy will get more scenes.

  245. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Eleanor: Can somebody please explain to me why this particular Iron Islander is interesting?

    Well 1) he has crazy rage issues (similar to Collum West in the First Law trilogy imo) and punched his last wife to death… and is planning to marry Daenerys
    2) Quaithe warned Dany about him and Darkflame in the prophecy and he happens to have a magical dragon-binding horn that Moqorro taught him to use
    3) He bound himself to the Lord of Light and has a fucking arm made of fire and smoke and burned flesh that is stronger than human… which mirrors the wights and their stronger than human ice-flesh

    and imo the most interesting thing is that everyone thinks Euron is some crazy tyrant? The only thing he’s done wrong is sleep with Victarion’s wife, who was quite consenting, it was Victarion who MURDERED her. Euron then spent years gathering money and magical items to deliver his people the entirety of Westeros, and when they went off with him, he decided to stay and work on his relationship with his people… which is more than you could ever say for Stannis or Cersei or Jon

    Veltigar: 2. To replace yet another bastard of Bobby B namely Mya Stone in the Vale.

    How does that make sense? It made sense that he could replace Edric Storm because he was only important to Stannis because he was Robert’s bastard. Mya Stone can’t be replaced by Gendry because her bastardity has nothing to do with her character, except the fact that it made Catelyn hate her… but that was already cut. It was more of an added easter egg in the same way as in aSoS where the whore in the Peach that comes onto Gendry is also a Bobby B bastard. Oh and, he could row to Gulltown, but he has no way to get to the Eyrie, nevermind through the Bloody Gate.

  246. Auren
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned,

    I speak Portuguese and I didn’t find any new information about season 4 in this interview.
    Lino hasn’t confirmed Mord’s return, he just said he liked Ciaram Bermingham’s acting.

  247. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Pau: “26 January 2014 Update:

    George R.R. Martin’s UK editor, Jane Johnson, has confirmed that The Winds of Winter will not be published in 2014, but that late 2015 remains a possibility.”

    Ah, the media, mixing things up again. Adam Whitehead (who is he btw? I get that she’s his UK publisher, but who is he) replied to a tweet saying it was silly to think it was coming in July and she replied saying that it would be years. They both deleted these tweets, which makes me think it was a joke that got taken far too seriously by thirsty fans. Also, Adam Whitehead replied to a comment asking if Winter 2015 is possible, and he said something along the lines of he didn’t have the information from GRRM to comment, which contradicts the first thing again.

    I wouldn’t lose hope just yet.

  248. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Adam (Wert) is a mod at Westeros and also admin at a GoT wiki. He stated he’s optimistic Winds will be out Oct- Dec 2015. Right when we should get a trailer for Season 6.

    He is also GRRMs white knight who defends everything he does with tenacity using his banhammer skills.

  249. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    So his guesses are based off what that makes him more educated than us? Inside info from Elio and Linda?

  250. Bard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Tje comment by Jane Johnson was not meant as a joke and as GRRMs publisher in the UK she has some insight in the progress of TWOW. We won’t see a release of the book this year and probably not in early 2015 either.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_I45AID4JDU/UuQiKnO_tTI/AAAAAAAABo4/2cFSYj_tEcs/s1600/capture.png

  251. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Ahhh yes, i remember now. Thanks for that… Good for a laugh :)

  252. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Bard,

    “it’s almost certainly years away” sounds pretty jokey to me, she then retweeted something like “everytime you ask when The Winds of Winter is coming GRRM kills a kitten” (which is still there)

    Considering “years” indicates a 5year writing time minimum, i’d expect some excuses from GRRM about why it’s taking so long… instead we’ve heard him answering the question by saying he has to write fast

  253. Bard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    She tweeted that kitten stuff before the other comment, if you look closely. She retweeted that TWOW will “certainly not [be published] this year.” So 2015 seems to be a possibility, 2014…better forget it.

    https://twitter.com/JaneJohnsonBakr/status/426815126818127872

  254. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Bard,

    well that second one leaves 4 years writing time open as a possibility, which is the same as a Feast for Crows, and completely disgusting. Maybe we’ll be hearing excuses soon then.

  255. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont

    About Euron: Well, there is having his brother killed to get his throne, and marrying off his niece against her will, but that’s obviously fairly harmless by Westerosi standards. However, letting one of your men rape one of your female prisoners while you’re at the table talking to your brother seems kind of a sure sign that you’re kind of a huge asshole, even by Ironborn standards.

    About Mya: her being Robert’s bastard is important for two reasons I think: 1. If Littlefinger needs living proof that Tommen and/or Myrcella aren’t likely to be Robert’s children he has one, and 2. Sansa has seen her, knows who she is and recognized the likeness to her father, which means she would likely recognize any other of Robert’s bastards (i.e. Edric or Gendry). At least reason 1 would make it possible that Gendry replaces her, and if Littlefinger picks him up in the bay, he doesn’t need to row to Gulltown. *shrugs* Just speculation, obviously.

  256. tysnow
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    That’s awesome news Winds won’t be published until winter of 2015, which means Dream will hit the shelves in 2019-20; just in time for GoT’s 10th season. I hoped this series was heading for a nice round 100 episodes, now it will become reality. Unless HBO places the show on a year or two hiatus, filling its time slot with another series set in Westeros. If that becomes the case, my vote is for Dunk & Egg, which is during the Targ Dynasties Golden Age.

  257. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    Hmmm yes there isn’t anything confirmed in the text that makes him evil, but when it’s confirmed that he sent the faceless man to kill Balon, and if the “creaking door” that haunts Aeron is revealed to be childhood abuse then I’ll change my mind. At the moment I wouldn’t call him more morally corrupt than say… Tyrion

    I don’t really see Tommen and Myrcella’s appearance being a big storyline factor seeing as they’re both confirmed to die, and die soon (before Cersei)

    OT: I’m on Joe Abercrombie’s blog… he’s wrote six big fantasy novels in seven years, and is planning to release a whole new trilogy before 2017… if only GRRM could learn

  258. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    who wants pizza?

  259. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    I don’t really see Tommen and Myrcella’s appearance being a big storyline factor seeing as they’re both confirmed to die, and die soon (before Cersei)

    Hey, say it isn’t so! I was hoping for an all-out kerfuffle between the armies of King Tommen, King Rickon and Queen Shireen, with surprise attacks led by Princess Myrcella and Prince SweetRobin! Anything else and I’m done with this series.

  260. WildSeed
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont: Considering “years” indicates a 5year writing time minimum, i’d expect some excuses from GRRM about why it’s taking so long… instead we’ve heard him answering the question by saying he has to write fast

    Interesting perspective. I’m not invested in the twitter world, to validate the comments,
    but the subject of TWOW’s ETA has been a much discussed topic in 2013. There have
    been great topic posts here, with 600 + comments and certainly discussed in other
    external forums. Coupled with very thoughtful interviews with GRRM, also in 2013,
    the insights have been reasonable for a timely publish date. I’m sure some of these
    would resolve some questions of conflict, it did for me. Just check the WiC Archives.

    I think Rygar, posted enough reference here with respect to the Wertzone, but similar topics were presented here by Adam, as well as Ser John of Slumber. The credible sources of information is always prefaced by as an opinion and generally optimistic or non optimistic, given the insights. I like visiting GRRM’s blog, on occasion too, to see if someone has asked a timely question that hasn’t been answered already.

  261. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    Satin,

    I don’t really see Tommen and Myrcella’s appearance being a big storyline factor seeing as they’re both confirmed to die, and die soon (before Cersei)

    Wow. There is confirmation of this? I missed that one.

  262. WildSeed
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Oh ye of little faith. Littlefinger will rescue you from such despair *>*

  263. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    i’m all for Shireen having an army of greyscaley stone men and Rickon having an army of unicorn riding cannibals and maybe Robin… having extra violent seizures

  264. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I say, totally evil. I mean he’s a pirate with an eye patch, of course he’s evil. ;)

    As for the kids: fair enough, but so far, they are the Lannisters and Tyrells’ sole reason for keeping the throne. If you can prove they are illegitimate – you have to keep in mind, Littlefinger doesn’t know that they are prophecied to die.

  265. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont: Well 1) he has crazy rage issues (similar to Collum West in the First Law trilogy imo) and punched his last wife to death… and is planning to marry Daenerys
    2) Quaithe warned Dany about him and Darkflame in the prophecy and he happens to have a magical dragon-binding horn that Moqorro taught him to use
    3) He bound himself to the Lord of Light and has a fucking arm made of fire and smoke and burned flesh that is stronger than human… which mirrors the wights and their stronger than human ice-flesh


    and imo the most interesting thing is that everyone thinks Euron is some crazy tyrant? The only thing he’s done wrong is sleep with Victarion’s wife, who was quite consenting, it was Victarion who MURDERED her. Euron then spent years gathering money and magical items to deliver his people the entirety of Westeros, and when they went off with him, he decided to stay and work on his relationship with his people… which is more than you could ever say for Stannis or Cersei or Jon

    Your thoughts on Vic, I’m all onboard with. Euron, however…. I think the idea that he’s “working on his relationship with his people” is a bit generous, and delusional.

  266. Satin
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister: Wow.There is confirmation of this?I missed that one.

    Nope, but prophecies have a way to be self-fulfilling in these books, and Cersei seems to be doing everything in her power to make this one come true, even if she likely doesn’t even notice.

  267. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    I really don’t care who finishes first as long as Edd Tollett climbs the Iron Throne in the final scene/paragraph and then pulls out Ned Stark’s skull and takes a dump on it.

  268. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    “Will the king and I have children?” she asked.
    “Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”

    “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

    I wouldn’t normally call a prophecy confirmation… because they can normally be interpreted in different ways. For instance the valonqar could be so many people it hurts. But there isn’t really an alternative meaning for the rest, her children will all be crowned and die before her, and then she will be murdered

  269. WildSeed
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    tysnow: Dunk & Egg,

    That’s the ticket ! Although I don’t see predicting publish dates solely based on previous books. The pattern may be distinguishable due to content , among other things. Besides,when some chapters need better pacing and held for future installments, this gives a head start on the next. That’s my guess anyway. Book seven may or not be here in 5 years time, it depends on the whole of book six. In any case, I’m not ruling out anything, including your points.

    I’m really missing Dunk & Egg, and I need a new installment. have you read the novella from ” Dangerous Women”, yet ?

  270. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    I’m really missing Dunk & Egg, and I need a new installment.

    Hey…no more TWoW distractions!

    But yes…D&E is needed to better understand BR and his 1000 & 1. :)

    Such success with the Blackfyre pretenders but such “bitterness” with his own brother.

  271. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Maybe I’m interpreting it wrong… I’ve only read a Feast and Dance once and I read them combined and all at once… but Euron was going to lead his people to Meereen to take the dragons… but they turn on him and say they just want to take the Arbor. Then he says something like “I’m offering them all dragons… but they just want grapes” and he decides to stay with them and instead sends Vic to Meereen? I might be reading between the lines in the complete wrong way but after reading that chapter I empathised a lot more with Euron… he seemed human.

  272. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Thank you! I think upon reread I need to tag prophesies (and other hints/looks into the future. It’s tough to remember all the details….. And I agree, that seems a pretty unambiguous prophetic remark.
    I do remember the valanqar… isn’t this supposed to be her brother?? I always took this to mean Jaime, even though she suspects “her other brother”.

    And does this mean Myrcella will indeed get crowned in Dorne?? Her crown will surely have that gangsta lean… (sorry, couldn’t help it.)

  273. WildSeed
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Truer than than snow in Savannah. Oh how one laments a perpetual spring in
    San Francisco. Without a change of season, one bores fast of the sameness.
    Even the west coast birds decided to stay put instead of migrating . Plentiful
    seed stock in the northwest proves good tidings and less stress from travel. Oh my,
    was I complaining because of spring… ? That’s cray cray , lmao.

  274. House Mormont
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Gangsta lean haha! Yes it will… I guess she has to be recrowned… since she was never officially got there on first attempt… so there is still a while before she dies

    The valonqar doesn’t have to be her brother specifically either… It could be anyone’s… it could be the brother of the younger more beautiful queen… it could be a brother of night’s watch or a one of the faith militant… I still hope for Jaime though

  275. WildSeed
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister: Your thoughts on Vic, I’m all onboard with. Euron, however…. I think the idea that he’s “working on his relationship with his people” is a bit generous, and delusional.

    That’s the way I interpreted Euron. Stay tuned for a bumpy ride in TWOW or later *>*

  276. Marillion
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    He doesn’t last long in ADWD. The bog devils shoot him and Theon(Reek) gives him the gift of mercy
    I love perfrieral characters. There are so many in the books that it’s nice to see a few in the show.

    hey-nonny, hey-nonny, hey-nonny-hey..

  277. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    Veltigar,

    What if I tell you that Mads would be a terrible casting choice for Euron? What would you say then? Huh?!

    That you have probably never seen any of Mads movies or have not read the books. Probably both :p

    Because as Cato the Elder would put it: There can be only one Euron. And that’s Mads Mikkelsen.

  278. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Jon Blackfyre:
    Veltigar,

    You will have to explain the AD+HR=MR&JR. Ive never heard that before and I can not see how that is very likely. But im interested.

    It’s far to big for me to explain this way but I’ll link you the original thread were the OP made her observations. Read the first post Ignore the part about Arthur Dayne. Most posters have come to the conclusion that that part is probably untrue and that the valuable take is the Ashara angle

    The next 21 pages of the thread are also usefull to read though not essential.

    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

    Oh, and of course Mads should play Euron.

  279. Blind Beth
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Nothing against Joe Abercrombie, but from what I’ve read of his work I would say that the intricacy of his plots is not quite on the same level as GRRM. That’s really the part that takes so much time, based on GRRM interviews.

  280. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Sorry… this device died whilst sending that last reply.

    That’s an interesting take on it, and may well be true. I’ll take back the delusional comment, but I still think it’s a generous interpretation of what he’s up to. I don’t recall his fleet turning on him, I thought he just decided to hole up on the shield islands, get in some serious raiding, and send Vic off to do the dangerous work. Crow’s Eye needs to build his “relationship” with his people, yes. But isn’t it really just securing his own newfound position of power? (and I have a feeling he has more than a passing interest in Oldtown, personally.) Asha’s out of the running and Vic is also now not a threat to his power…

  281. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont: Well 1) he has crazy rage issues (similar to Collum West in the First Law trilogy imo) and punched his last wife to death… and is planning to marry Daenerys

    Common misconception about Victarion His rage issues are no where near comparable with Collum West in that case. Collum loses control over himself when he decides to whack someone. When Victarion beat his wife to death he was in full controll of himself at the time of the beating. Euron most likely raped her and eventhough he loved her according to Ironborn custom he had no choice but to kill her. Just shows us that Vic is a slave to Ironborn culture. The act still haunts him, but instead of, like Collum, hate himself he blames Euron because from his PoV Euron forced him to do it.

    House Mormont: Well
    2) Quaithe warned Dany about him and Darkflame in the prophecy and he happens to have a magical dragon-binding horn that Moqorro taught him to use

    Well, there are two big ifs here. For starters we don’t know what Quaithe agenda is. She seems to be pretty warry of people helping Dany. I get that she thinks that there is something of about Vic, JonCon and Faegon. But Quentyn who came to lay Dorne at her feet? Tyrion who has nowhere else to turn to? Moqorro who’s boss believes she’s AA come again? Seems like they have no sinister intentions towards Dany.

    Secondly, we don’t know if Moqorro truly learned Vic anything. And then there is of course the Dusky Woman (A FM if you ask me), who’s prawling around that ship. Things will be interesting

    House Mormont:
    3) He bound himself to the Lord of Light and has a fucking arm made of fire and smoke and burned flesh that is stronger than human… which mirrors the wights and their stronger than human ice-flesh

    Wights are just re-animated corpses. The only reason why they seem stronger is that they don’t tire or feel pain. There flesh isn’t inherently tougher since teeth, claw and steel still damage it in the same way as it would damage the flesh of the living.

    House Mormont:
    and imo the most interesting thing is that everyone thinks Euron is some crazy tyrant? The only thing he’s done wrong is sleep with Victarion’s wife, who was quite consenting, it was Victarion who MURDERED her. Euron then spent years gathering money and magical items to deliver his people the entirety of Westeros, and when they went off with him, he decided to stay and work on his relationship with his people… which is more than you could ever say for Stannis or Cersei or Jon

    You must be joking? I think Euron is an interesting character but he’s one of the biggest villains in the books. For starters we don’t know if Victarion wife came willing. It’s more likely that Euron raped her. Secondly, there are the hints that Euron sexually abused Aeron. Thirdly, he ordered the hit on Balon (kinslaying). He murdered that Botley guy who spoke against him, allowed the gangrape of that nobleman’s daughters at his victory party, he’s selling survivors as slave (clear violation of Ironborn custom), he cuts the tongue from his crewmembers out (several of which are his bastards I might add), he made that one guy blow the horn until he died, raped and pillaged all over the world, forced the Qartheen warlocks to eat one of their own, etc.

    And that’s just what we know from the very limited page time he has had so far. The Crowseye has a reputation for enjoying other’s pain and playing twisted mind games. Then there is all the foreshadowing that builds up his importance. Euron is as cruel as Ramsay, as ruthless as Tywin (even more so) and as accomplished as a strategist like Stannis. Very, very dangerous.

    House Mormont:
    How does that make sense? It made sense that he could replace Edric Storm because he was only important to Stannis because he was Robert’s bastard. Mya Stone can’t be replaced by Gendry because her bastardity has nothing to do with her character, except the fact that it made Catelyn hate her… but that was already cut. It was more of an added easter egg in the same way as in aSoS where the whore in the Peach that comes onto Gendry is also a Bobby B bastard. Oh and, he could row to Gulltown, but he has no way to get to the Eyrie, nevermind through the Bloody Gate.

    The idea is that Gendry would take Mya places as a servant. The character has done nothing so far that could not be done by Gendry.
    As for the location “problem”. You’re not seriously suggesting that the show that features LF’s jetpack adventures (and Mellisandre’s) would care about that do you? They could easily work around that. Hell, we don’t even know how Gulltown is connected with the rest of the Vale. They might have there one pass or a they might go in from the seaside. After all Bronze Yohn must have brought his army in from somewhere. It seems unlikely that they all came in through the Bloody Gate

    Oh, and as always: 60% of the time, Mads Mikkelsen should play Euron all the time.

  282. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    (*raises hand*) I’ll take SanSan for the win….Beauty & the Beast all the way, baby!

    It’s never going to happen on the show. She’s 14 and the Hound is like 40 in the show. They aren’t even allowed to do it by British law. And even if they were, showbies would probably revolt. Sansan is never going to happen on screen. Not as a full on romantic thing anyway.

    Euron= Mads

  283. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Team Isaacs!

  284. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Yes, and Talisa and Ros will take the place of fake!Arya. Probably at the same time.

    Haha, it’s funny to see your outrage. It’s never going to happen on the show. See my previous post (right above Rygar)

    Euron = Mads

  285. Veltigar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow:
    How the heck would Gendry get to theVale, save with Brienne or Jaime, who won’t be there for a long time yet, certainly not until Sansa’s storyline comes to its next stage? You came up with that entire unlikely plotline just to justify your crackship, didn’t you?

    Lol, I don’t ship anyone. The only one who’s taking this seriously is you. If you had read my post you’d clearly see “might”. Even if it’s never going to happen that line from the book would be a great inclusion since it would throw out a Red Herring and create buzz and controversy. Both are well liked by the creators of the show.

    Although I might chance my mind about the Sansa/Hot Pie Ship. That seems like one with real dramatic potential XD

    Mads = Euron

  286. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    I’m going to have to play Scipio Aemillianus to your Cato the Elder:

    Jason Isaacs must play Euron “Crows” Eye.

    Come on Rygar, join me! We need to form a Quorum!

  287. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: It’s never going to happen on the show. She’s 14 and the Hound is like 40 in the show. They aren’t even allowed to do it by British law. And even if they were, showbies would probably revolt. Sansan is never going to happen on screen. Not as a full on romantic thing anyway.

    Hey, V, I’m not advocating anything. The Hound is 90 and Sansa is 5…(in the books Hound is 29 and Sansa is 13-14)….who cares. I simply enjoy the concept of Beauty and the Beast from a pure characterization perspective and how GRRM wrote their interactions and her dreams and inner thoughts. It’s not likely but it’s also not a stretch to imagine a possible realignment. In her storyline, she is surrounded by older, strange, lascivious men….and this is ASoI&F and it ain’t kind. In a crazy way, Sandor may have helped her handle LF and the other nutjobs. We’ll see….but we haven’t had a single word about Sansa since 2005…..too fucking long…and I’m pissed. :\

  288. Rygar
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    I am curious as to what Velti thinks of the of Jason Isaacs as Euron.

    I honestly would not care if Mads was cast, I just know its a distant possibility so I am going with someone with better odds. Always bet on black.

  289. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: If Mord takes Marillion’s place (i.e. is the guy LF will frame for Lysa’s murder), maybe Lysa, instead of trying to push Sansa through the moon door, orders Mord to do it, per a theory that has been brought up on the Forum of Ice and Fire (although the theory was not that Mord is that someone, but that Lysa orders someone to do it). The theory was an attempt to solve another problem – in the book, Lysa was stronger than Sansa because she was much heavier, but show!Lysa isn’t heavy, and show!Sansa looks stronger than her.

    I don’t think the weight thing is an issue. Lysa is insane, and so I can see she’d be able to drag Sansa, who would be a somewhat surprised participant in the proceedings.

  290. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Randomly, anyone here rooting to see Laura Pradelska again as Quaithe? I don’t know if they’ll need her, but she’s a great peripheral character I would love to have show up once in a while, similar to Lucian Msimati’s Salladhor Saan.

  291. Kyle
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber:
    Randomly, anyone here rooting to see Laura Pradelska again as Quaithe? I don’t know if they’ll need her, but she’s a great peripheral character I would love to have show up once in a while, similar to Lucian Msimati’s Salladhor Saan.

    Agreed. I read that Quaithe was returning, though never saw a source for that. I’ve heard nothing about Salladhor Saan.

  292. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 28, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: That’s the way I interpreted Euron.Stay tuned for a bumpy ride in TWOW or later *>*

    Never trust a Greyjoy.

  293. WildSeed
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Mads Mikkelsen should play Euron

    This would be a home run for GoT, should fans be so lucky of his making an appearance.
    Aside from a full season of television psychiatrist in ” Hannibal ” or starring in an award
    winning film, we’d be fortunate if he’d consent. However minimal the GoT production
    perceives this character (Euron ), Mikkelsen would certainly raise the bar in featured scenes.

    Ever since viewing Mikkelsen in ” Clash of the Titans “, he’d become a natural for Euron.

    Sister Wrister: Never trust a Greyjoy.

    I could find interest in an onscreen rendition to watch, but yeah, never trust a Greyjoy.
    Not further than I could throw my shoe. ( :

  294. WildSeed
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    In past months several had raised the question of her reappearance, but other discussions quickly overtook that. There’s no consensus, or ability to speculate in any sensible way until more insights are known about the direction of the show. Season 4 will likely demonstrate many revised arcs, and offer more for speculation. Ser Tahu and a few others have shared reasonable outlines, generating awesome discussion, yet many gaps persist. We really need more insights without going the route of crackpot theories. S4 will unleash new perspectives. Here’s hoping that Quaithe and the Direwolves return to GoT in a thoughtful way.

  295. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Kyle,

    Never heard about Quathie returning.
    Cato bullshit:
    Mads Mickelsen is Penny. Only Jason Isaacs can play Euron.

  296. Sister Wrister
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: It’s far to big for me to explain this way but I’ll link you the original thread were the OP made her observations. Read the first post Ignore the part about Arthur Dayne. Most posters have come to the conclusion that that part is probably untrue and that the valuable take is the Ashara angle

    The next 21 pages of the thread are also usefull to read though not essential.

    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

    Oh, and of course Mads should play Euron.

    This is pretty awesome. Also got me thinking. Could a blade forged from a “fallen star” and kept near the Summer Sea have a role to play in a coming war with darkness?

  297. Uther Greenshirt
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    Reahger played in Bran vision by Benedict Cumberbatch? what do you think? I think he could pull off the arrogant, prideful and authority of the part, plus would love to see him in court/that black armour!

  298. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Hey, V, I’m not advocating anything. The Hound is 90 and Sansa is 5…(in the books Hound is 29 and Sansa is 13-14)….who cares.I simply enjoy the concept of Beauty and the Beast from a pure characterization perspective and how GRRM wrote their interactions and her dreams and inner thoughts. It’s not likely but it’s also not a stretch to imagine a possible realignment. In her storyline, she is surrounded by older, strange, lascivious men….and this is ASoI&F and it ain’t kind. In a crazy way, Sandor may have helped her handle LF and the other nutjobs. We’ll see….but we haven’t had a single word about Sansa since 2005…..too fucking long…and I’m pissed.:\

    I’m not saying anything about the bookseries ;-) Sansan could happen there. But in GoT there is no chance in hell that it will ever happen :)

    Yippy ka cast Mads as Euron yeah

  299. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister: This is pretty awesome.Also got me thinking.Could a blade forged from a “fallen star” and kept near the Summer Sea have a role to play in a coming war with darkness?

    Perhaps ;-) the tricky thing would be to get it up North though. I believe GRRM confirmed in an SSM that the blade is currently at Starfall. So, I guess it should be introduced in tWoW to play any part at all

    May the odds ever be in favor of casting Mads Mikkelsen as Euron

  300. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    BTW, I am only just watching Rome’s season 2 and Simon Woods would be a PERFECT Young Griff. He’s got the Targ looks, with an added white hair wig of course and he’s a good actor. The roles for Octavian and Griff are also similar in that it’s a young guy who’s a king and is a bit arrogant.

    I think that would be a perfect casting.

  301. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:22 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    I’m hesitant about Mads for Euron, since I’m partial to him being Hannibal Lecter – of course if he could do both, bring it on – but I think you’ve convinced me on Sansa/Hot Pie… Great ship. I’d suggest Gendry/Pod as a companion ship.

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Simon Woods is great, but isn’t he a bit old for the role by now?

    Uther Greenshirt,

    Noooo…. lol. j/k Honestly, I think that should be Harry Lloyd. He was great as Viserys, and he makes a great Targaryen. And I miss him. Okay, last one isn’t an impartial argument…

  302. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    He’s supposed to look a year older than Kit, and he’s six years older… It really depends on how young he looks, and I’ve only ever seen him in Rome so I don’t know how he looks now. He’s supposed to look 19-20…

  303. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    Satin: I’m not sure he writes him sympathetically, but we might just get different signals from the text. As for being a monster or not – yes, I think he is one, due to his culture, and due to the fact that he is not clever enough to question or even reject its more problematic sides (i.e. if I’m so sad about having killed my wife, maybe I shouldn’t have in the first place). He’s made by Ironborn culture like Cersei, Walder Frey and the Mountain are made by Westerosi culture, and like in their case, that’s an explanation for his behaviour, but ultimately, not an excuse.

    I really think GRRM is making a point with this character, and it’s not that he is badass; it’s that his society will turn a badass warrior like Victarion into a monster, because it encourages only his brutality, and views anything that tempers or balances his violent urges as weakness.

    I don’t like Victarion’s chapters at all or him as a character, but I don’t think he’s a monster. By his culture standards he’s quite a nice chap actually. Too nice even

    Satin:
    OldeCrone,

    it’s maybe an unusual comparison, but Japanese animation does this all the time, actually. Anime and Manga often have different storylines and endings, because the shows are usually finished earlier than the comics. And GoT the show can’t wait forever, because they won’t be able to keep the actors and crew that long without working.It’s much too expensive.

    Yes, I remember the first case of this that I experienced was with Akira, when the ending of the film we saw in the theater in ’91 and the ending of the manga that came out years later was totally different. We didn’t understand any of the 2 though haha . No wonder ’cause Otomo didn’t know how to finish it, so the movie one sucked and the Manga one was later inspired by Jodorowski, who is a genius, but too deep for a teenager. But I digress.

    The difference with the Manga/Anime example with GoT/ASoIaF is that in the first case both adaptations are made by the same guy, the creator, and it’s often a way to offer 2 endings to the same story, both of wich are valid. I don’t think that would be the case with GoT/ASoIaF. If GoT finishes first, for me would be a disaster because it would spoil the ending of the books, but without the nuances of it. I’d much rather read it first, for the full experience, but how am I gonna be able to do that if the show finishes first? Even if I have the willpower to not watch it, I’d get spoiled for sure by my non-reader friends, wich would be even worse

  304. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: It’s never going to happen on the show. She’s 14 and the Hound is like 40 in the show. They aren’t even allowed to do it by British law. And even if they were, showbies would probably revolt. Sansan is never going to happen on screen. Not as a full on romantic thing anyway.

    Euron= Mads

    The Hound is not “like 40″, Rory McCann is. Ned wasn’t supposed to be 50, Catelyn was not supposed to be in her late 40s, and Dany is not supposed to be in her mid 20s, even though the actors are. The Hound is more likely in his 30s.[/b]

    Using the same yardstick, Sophie Turner is turning 18 in February. Sansa, the character, is 15 this season and will be 16 by the time her AFFC material is finished. And 16 is the age of consent in Britain. Nothing in the British law could prevent her from having romantic scenes from there on, even if it were preventing her now (and I don’t think it does – actresses younger than her were filming kissing scenes with adult actors in mainstream film and TV… She’s going to be having scenes where she’s molested by LF in any case, and she’s already had a gang rape attempt scene 2 years ago).

    Even if the law were preventing a 16-year old character (or older) played by a 18+ actress of having a romantic plot (as opposed to being molested) with an adult, you are aware that your Sansa/Gendry crackpot would hypothetically be affected just the same? Joe Dempsie is an adult, he’s in his late 20s.

    “Showbies revolting” is something only you believe in, the reviews and articles (not to mention Youtube videos etc.) about the first 2 seasons showed that the Unsullied saw “something” there and were quite into the idea of SanSan. By the look of it, Showbies would be overjoyed.

    Heck, some entertainment articles even shipped Sansa/Tyrion on the show, and not only is Peter Dinklage also ‘like 40′, but Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion when she was 14.

  305. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Rygar,

    Agreed. Isaacs will be perfect as Euron. No way we’re getting Mads Mikkelssen for that role or even a bit role like Victarion. Especially when they film Hannibal and GoT so close to each other.

    Hannibal will probably be canceled this year though

    Satin: Oh yes, no doubt about that – think only about all the secret mooning over each other that went on in the past – Robert who loves Lyanna who loves Rhaegar who loves his harp etc. It’s obviously important, but it’s possible to read it without being a shipper, and I honestly don’t care if Gendry ends up with Arya or Sansa or Jon or whoever. I like the character, but I’m more interested in his family relations and his social background – and I’d like him to get a storyline where he’s not just a sidekick. Buuut to each their own, and I don’t want to start a debate about this, so please let’s just not. Ship or not ship at your heart’s desire, is my motto.

    This. I find SanSan, Arya/Gendry and Bran/Meera shippers as ridiculous (or not ridiculous) as the Sansa/Gendry ones, though. At least the last ones are outside the murky area of fantasizing with possible statutory rape.

  306. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Haha, it’s funny to see your outrage. It’s never going to happen on the show. See my previous post (right above Rygar)

    You just keep telling yourself that.

    Pau: Hannibal will probably be canceled this year though

    This. I find SanSan, Arya/Gendry and Bran/Meera shippers as ridiculous (or not ridiculous) as the Sansa/Gendry ones, though.At least the last ones are outside the murky area of fantasizing with possible statutory rape.

    Well, it’s good to know that you consider GRRM more ridiculous than the fanficcers. :) That dude is the one who came up with those ships and put them in his books.

    And, speaking of actual statutory rape… Dany/Drogo *cough cough*

    Why would Hannibal be cancelled?

  307. Gondor
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    @ Annara Snow,

    You are the one of the most annoying posters on ASoIaF forums must you ruin this site, too? I stopped posting on that forum due to annoying people like you.

    On topic, this guy looks quite the type of Iron Born.

  308. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Gondor:
    @ Annara Snow,

    You are the one of the most annoying posters on ASoIaF forums must you ruin this site, too? I stopped posting on that forum due to annoying people like you.

    On topic, this guy looks quite the type of Iron Born.

    It’s satisfying to know that I have contributed to making the Forum of Ice and Fire a better place. Thank you. :)

  309. Joshua Atreides
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Pau: Hannibal will probably be canceled this year though

    ‘S’plainy?

    -Already has a strong fanbase
    -cheap to make
    -On the majority of critics top 10 Lists
    -strong DVD sales for a cult hit

    ???

  310. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Satin:
    Veltigar,

    I’m hesitant about Mads for Euron, since I’m partial to him being Hannibal Lecter – of course if he could do both, bring it on – but I think you’ve convinced me on Sansa/Hot Pie… Great ship. I’d suggest Gendry/Pod as a companion ship

    Does Gendry have to give up his relationship with Thormund’s member in this scenario? Because if he has I can’t support this ship :p

    WildSeed: This would be a home run for GoT, should fans be so lucky of his making an appearance.
    Aside from a full season of television psychiatrist in ” Hannibal ” or starring in an award
    winning film, we’d be fortunate if he’d consent. However minimal the GoT production
    perceives this character (Euron ), Mikkelsen would certainly raise the bar in featured scenes.
    Ever since viewing Mikkelsen in ” Clash of the Titans “, he’d become a natural for Euron.

    It’s probably impossible to get him, but I sure hope they at least tried. At the off chance he says yes the show would have a brilliant actor on it’s hand to play the small yet very demanding character that Euron is (so far).

    Rygar:
    I am curious as to what Velti thinks of the of Jason Isaacs as Euron.
    I honestly would not care if Mads was cast, I just know its a distant possibility so I am going with someone with better odds.Always bet on black.

    Well, Mads is clearly the better actor (by miles) and his look would fit the aesthetics of this show more imo, certainly as a Greyjoy. Isaacs would feel out of place.

    But my concerns run deeper. Isaacs has frequently played bad guys, but it was always the same kind of bad guy (at least in the ones I see), only in different degrees and that bad guy is not Euron material.

    Isaacs signature villains like Lucius Malfoy and Colonel Tavington were both cruel and devious but they lack a certain… air of competence. There always at the brink of losing control. The best way of putting it is that his bad guys always feel unhinched.

    Euron on the other hand is mad as a hatter, but he’s also highly competent and very much in control. I don’t think he would ever lose control of his cruelty or make random mistakes.

    IMO Jason Isaacs would be a very good Jon Connington His looks are of course wrong but the Griffon gives the same impression as many of Isaacs bad guys, only he’s more of a good guy. We’ll probably see JC lose control over himself, some of his thoughts were already pretty unhinched in ADWD. Isaacs could really bring it to that mindset.

    Red Rover Red Rover let Mads come over! And cast him as Euron.

  311. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Pau: Hannibal will probably be canceled this year though

    Shush, don’t say things like that. Every time you do, Hannibal eats another socialite.

    Veltigar,

    Er, I guess that can be arranged. I’m sure the Member is polyamorous.

  312. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer: “Showbies revolting” is something only you believe in, the reviews and articles (not to mention Youtube videos etc.) about the first 2 seasons showed that the Unsullied saw “something” there and were quite into the idea of SanSan. By the look of it, Showbies would be overjoyed.

    Heck, some entertainment articles even shipped Sansa/Tyrion on the show, and not only is Peter Dinklage also ‘like 40′, but Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion when she was 14.

    I mostly remember him from Pride and Prejudice, which was … 2007? 08? He played Bingley and looked mid-twenties. Problem is, people often start looking different when they are over 30, and I think you’d see the age difference too much. They’ll probably go for someone whose a bit younger instead.

    Since we’re putting up casting ideas: Richard Armitage for Jon Connington! Wrong hair colour again, but the guy can brood.

  313. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Kyle: Agreed. I read that Quaithe was returning, though never saw a source for that. I’ve heard nothing about Salladhor Saan.

    Yeah, if it happens, it’ll just be one of those nice surprises. The tertiary – or even quartenary (?) characters are some of the nicest surprises when they show up (i.e., Maester Aemon in Mhysa, Balon in Mhysa, Salla in Valar Dohaeris). I just want one Salla appearance a year because he and Davos are so great together, and more Quaithe is great too. I re-watched “A Man Without Honor” last night, and it’s great when she shows up: “Will you betray her again, Jorah the Andal?”

  314. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Gondor:
    @ Annara Snow,

    You are the one of the most annoying posters on ASoIaF forums must you ruin this site, too? I stopped posting on that forum due to annoying people like you.

    On topic, this guy looks quite the type of Iron Born.

    Let it go dude. People like that aren’t worth the trouble. And don’t let those silly keyboard warriors bully you into staying away from Westeros. There are still enough good posters left to fight those douches back if we unite together ;-)

    No, we go in. We cast Mads Mikkelsen as Euron and I forgot the rest of this quote

  315. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    Not sure about Armitage anymore since The Hobbit. But his lousy performance in PJs CGIfuck has to be due to the terrible writing (he is amazing in everything else I’ve seen) which concerns me if he is cast in GoT, especially if they continue with their scripted mediocrity. He does have the sullen grump down, but so does the Grumpy Cat. Maybe cast him/her instead? ;)

  316. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    Satin: Shush, don’t say things like that. Every time you do, Hannibal eats another socialite.

    Veltigar,

    Er, I guess that can be arranged. I’m sure the Member is polyamorous.

    Alright, that’s a relief because Thormunds member runs deep with Gendry :p If you catch my drift :p

    No Mads as Euron makes Jack a dull boy.

  317. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    oh, dear, I disagree on almost everything you just said, except that Armitage is a good actor.

    Veltigar,

    …I see we’re keeping up the quality in this thread! :D

  318. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Fair enough. Its difficult to discuss the subjectivity of ones acting ability without a nanny nanny poo poo thrown in for good measure.

  319. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    Why oh dear? Its OK to disagree. It’ll be all right. Just breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out.

  320. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    *stops hyperventilating* polite disagreement with someone else’s opinions, on the internet? I must be in a parallel universe.

  321. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    Yes. Its called a discussion. On a public forum.

    I happen to feel that PJ, whether from pressure by his studio or by his zealousness, overplayed his hand and created three visually enhanced movies that could have been one or two tops. RAs performance is laughable and the writing worse. As Josh A stated, all the good acting and writing for the dwarves went into Balin. There are so many rehashed bits of dialogue from LoTR that I lost count.

    And I have never shied away from saying that the writing for GoT is a step above True Blood territory and far below of that of other HBO series.

    However, the acting in GoT is superb and they deal with shit given to them with amazing results.

  322. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    It’s actually rarer than one would like to think.

    I agree that blowing up the movie version of the Hobbit to almost 9 hours was ridiculous. A lot of both Unexpected Journey and Smaug was filler and could have been cut down or done away with. The tone is very uneven – I fear for most adults, the movies are too silly, and for most kids, they are too long.

    I don’t agree that Armitage is horrible or Thorin badly written. He’s given far more motivation and development than the original character, and he’s far less of a dick (yes, that’s possible). And I think Armitage does a good portrait of someone who wants to be a heroic leader, but ultimately is too flawed to achieve it.

    The dwarves are mostly moving set pieces, but at least in the first movie, Bofur and Dwalin got some character beats as well.

    Aside from all of that, I just liked the first movie. The second was okay, but the first – I like PJ’s take on Middle Earth. I don’t love everything, but I fight less with his ideas than with the Professors. Of course, I’m not a Tolkien disciple, and while I appreciate his place in shaping fantasy, I also often wish people – readers, authors and publishers – wouldn’t worship him quite as thoroughly and step out of the paths he created.

    The writing on GoT is not even close to being as bad as the True Blood writing, which oozes condescension for its genre and its projected audience out of every pore, and is infuriatingly lazy (I only watched until the end of S4, but from what I’ve seen it didn’t get better). I’m not necessarily an Alan Ball fan, but he really can do so much better. Speaking of which, the GoT writers did get better over the seasons. I don’t think they are always stellar, but mostly alright, both regarded within the frame of what is common for fantasy, and among current dramas (no, it’s not Mad Men, but I doubt it’s trying to be).

  323. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Satin,

    Yes.Its called a discussion. On a public forum.

    I happen to feel that PJ, whether from pressure by his studio or by his zealousness, overplayed his hand and created three visually enhanced movies that could have been one or two tops.RAs performance is laughable and the writing worse.As Josh A stated, all the good acting and writing for the dwarves went into Balin.There are so many rehashed bits of dialogue from LoTR that I lost count.

    And I have never shied away from saying that the writing for GoT is a step above True Blood territory and far below of that of other HBO series.

    However, the acting in GoT is superb and they deal with shit given to them with amazing results.

    I”ll have to give it to Rygar here. The Hobbit movies are atrocious, not that there plain bad. I still like to go see them once in the theater (to get the awesome visuals right) but I have yet to watch the Hobbit a second time which says a lot.

    Thorin was butchered in the first installment. He was marginally beter in the second one. Visually, they are stunning but storywise they suck balls.

    I also agree about GoT. If the writing was on a par with the acting, costumes, VFX, etc. than GoT would be the best show on earth. People wouldn’t even talk about Breaking Bad anymore.

  324. Tenesmus
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    The more I thnk about it, the more I like the symmetry of Gendry ending up at the Vale with Sansa. Could easily see LF picking him up either out of KL or literally out of his dinghy sailing to the Vale. I remember Robert and Ned discussing how their kids were going to be married, so it fits.

    I also don’t think that we will get anymore Greyjoys. Balon dies, Theon and Yara make it back to Pyke, Yara replaces Victaion and Theon replaces Euron. Stannis then conquers the Iron Islands and captures Theon on his way to Winterfell.

  325. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    I found the first one utterly charming with its whimsical child-like feel. Very reminiscent of the themes of the book. Brought me back.

  326. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: I also agree about GoT. If the writing was on a par with the acting, costumes, VFX, etc. than GoT would be the best show on earth. People wouldn’t even talk about Breaking Bad anymore.

    I don’t know about that, actually. Fantasy as a genre is so much a red-headed stepchild (or a black-haired bastard?), the writing could be Shakespearean, and it wouldn’t be recognized.

    Admittedly, I often wish the writers were a little braver in their character writing especially, but a lot of the script really isn’t that horrible. For instance, say about the sex scenes what you will, in Season 3 they were connected to a broader narrative about the physical and sexual exploitation of anyone who doesn’t belong to a very small group of noble old guys, who are able to run the show in both Westeros and Essos almost completely unchecked. And yes, that’s in the text, obviously, but they manage to translate it to the screen, too. You only have to look.

  327. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Satin,

    I found the first one utterly charming with its whimsical child-like feel. Very reminiscent of the themes of the book.Brought me back.

    I love the book, but I thought they were pretty different. And I could kick PJ for the troll snott jokes etc, but that’s just me.

  328. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Tenesmus:
    The more I thnk about it, the more I like the symmetry of Gendry ending up at the Vale with Sansa.Could easily see LF picking him up either out of KL or literally out of his dinghy sailing to the Vale.I remember Robert and Ned discussing how their kids were going to be married, so it fits.

    I also don’t think that we will get anymore Greyjoys.Balon dies, Theon and Yara make it back to Pyke, Yara replaces Victaion and Theon replaces Euron.Stannis then conquers the Iron Islands and captures Theon on his way to Winterfell.

    Gendry and Sansa: lol, Tenesmus, where angels fear to tread… I promise to keep some popcorn for you, too, if it comes to that. /somewhat cryptic, read thread above for clarification.

    But yeah, the Hound and Gendry switching Starks would be kind of fun in a way.

    Greyjoy Bros: I think they’ll at the very least cast Euron. Theon does have his own storyline, and he really isn’t the same type of character. And emancipated as Yara may be I can’t see her sailing to Meereen to try and win Dany’s hand for herself. Although that would be an interesting twist for sure.

  329. Lord Davos
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Still i am confused, why does the show keep getting nods from the industry and critics?
    I havent met anyone but you that told me the show has been badly written, only little trolls without any wits.
    If 39th place on the writers guild of america top 100 is mediocre, are the guild up to ass-licking or high?
    In acting, well-written characters are a necessity.
    The 2013 Boardwalk empire supporting acting emmy win was an exception,
    due to the actor outjousting the bad writing.
    I dont see this in GoT, i feel the show is perfect for any actor, since they have such good basis to draw upon.
    A prime example of bad writing, is Daryl Dixon from the walking dead.
    Norman Reedus is an indie star badass, which is perfect for playing a southern redneck. His acting and writing was the most grounded on the show, since he was not based from a comic. In season three and four, they butchered him.
    They gave up, and decided to make him center of many conflicts in the show, which he had to deal with using lot of action and violence. At this point he is just a zombie killing superhero. Last episode he took out a tank with a grenade while using a zombie for shield against machine guns.
    Seriously compare the acting between season 1 and 4, even the horrible andrew lincoln was better in season 1. And back then, he even had his “nolan batman” style atlanta accent.

    D&D are saying they are going bolder with their character writing this year,
    i have no fears whatsoever.

    end of rant

  330. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    If the Greyjoy Expansion Pack from AFFC is cut altogether, I think Yara WILL be intercepted by Stannis. That is the only way Yara+Stannis in season 4 makes sense to me.

    Either way, I don’t think any major plotlines will get cut. Except for Quentyn’s pre Meereen stuff (and possibly all of Quentyn), and whatever Aeron and Areo will be doing in TWOW. Unless it’s insanely important somehow.

  331. Lord Davos
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Lord Davos,

    Writers guild of america 101 best shows.
    Never seen a more legit list myself.

    1. The Sopranos
    2. Seinfeld
    3. The Twilight Zone
    4. All in the Family
    5. M*A*S*H
    6. The Mary Tyler Moore Show
    7. Mad Men
    8. Cheers
    9. The Wire
    10. The West Wing
    11. The Simpsons
    12. I Love Lucy
    13. Breaking Bad
    14. The Dick Van Dyke Show
    15. Hill Street Blues
    16. Arrested Development
    17. The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
    18. Six Feet Under
    19. Taxi
    20. The Larry Sanders Show
    21. 30 Rock
    22. Friday Night Lights
    23. Frasier
    24. Friends
    25. Saturday Night Live
    26. The X-Files
    27. Lost
    28. ER
    29. The Cosby Show
    30. Curb Your Enthusiasm
    31. The Honeymooners
    32. Deadwood
    33. Star Trek
    34. Modern Family
    35. Twin Peaks
    36. NYPD Blue
    37. The Carol Burnett Show
    38. Battlestar Galactica (2005)
    39. Sex & The City
    40. Game of Thrones
    41. The Bob Newhart Show and Your Show of Shows (tie)
    43. Downton Abbey, Law & Order and Thirtysomething (tie)
    46. Homicide: Life on the Street and St. Elsewhere (tie)
    48. Homeland
    49. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
    50. The Colbert Report, The Good Wife and the UK Office (tie)
    53. Northern Exposure
    54. The Wonder Years
    55. L.A. Law
    56. Sesame Street
    57. Columbo
    58. Fawlty Towers and The Rockford Files (tie)
    60. Freaks and Geeks and Moonlighting (tie)
    62. Roots
    63. Everybody Loves Raymond and South Park (tie)
    65. Playhouse 90
    66. Dexter and the US Office (tie)
    68. My So-Called Life
    69. Golden Girls
    70. The Andy Griffith Show
    71. 24, Roseanne and The Shield
    74. House and Murphy Brown (tie)
    76. Barney Miller and I, Claudius (tie)
    78. The Odd Couple
    79. Alfred Hitchcock Presents, Monty Python’s Flying Circus, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Upstairs, Downstairs (tie)
    83. Get Smart
    84. The Defenders and Gunsmoke (tie)
    86. Justified, Sgt. Bilko/The Phil Silvers Show (tie)
    88. Band of Brothers
    89. Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In
    90. The Prisoner
    91. Absolutely Fabulous and The Muppet Show (tie)
    93. Boardwalk Empire
    94. Will & Grace
    95. Family Ties
    96. Lonesome Dove and Soap
    98. The Fugitive, Late Night with David Letterman and Louie
    101. Oz

  332. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Funny thing about that list is, I agree with several of the shows I’ve seen if it comes to single seasons, but not the whole shows.

    (And randomly, I don’t get why Downton Abbey is a) so high, and b) on that list at all. I mean, acting is great, yes, and amazing production design, but that’s in no way a good series. It’s ridiculous soap masquerading as drama, and when we’re putting soaps on the list, at least Dynasty should be much higher.)

  333. jentario
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Lord Davos,

    Why the fuck is Homeland on that list?!

  334. Lord Davos
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    It came before season 3.

  335. Lord Davos
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    I forgot, the list is based on writing, whatever genre.

  336. jentario
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Lord Davos,

    Nope. Still doesn’t justify the fact that Homeland is just a couple of spots below GoT. It’s hilarious how huge the quality gap is between those shows.

  337. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Satin:

    Lord Davos:
    Lord Davos,

    Writers guild of america 101 best shows.
    Never seen a more legit list myself.

    1. The Sopranos
    2. Seinfeld
    3. The Twilight Zone
    4. All in the Family
    5. M*A*S*H
    6. The Mary Tyler Moore Show
    7. Mad Men
    8. Cheers
    9. The Wire
    10. The West Wing
    11. The Simpsons
    12. I Love Lucy
    13. Breaking Bad
    14. The Dick Van Dyke Show
    15. Hill Street Blues
    16. Arrested Development
    17. The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
    18. Six Feet Under
    19. Taxi
    20. The Larry Sanders Show
    21. 30 Rock
    22. Friday Night Lights
    23. Frasier
    24. Friends
    25. Saturday Night Live
    26. The X-Files
    27. Lost
    28. ER
    29. The Cosby Show
    30. Curb Your Enthusiasm
    31. The Honeymooners
    32. Deadwood
    33. Star Trek
    34. Modern Family
    35. Twin Peaks
    36. NYPD Blue
    37. The Carol Burnett Show
    38. Battlestar Galactica (2005)
    39. Sex & The City
    40. Game of Thrones
    41. The Bob Newhart Show and Your Show of Shows (tie)
    43. Downton Abbey, Law & Order and Thirtysomething (tie)
    46. Homicide: Life on the Street and St. Elsewhere (tie)
    48. Homeland
    49. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
    50. The Colbert Report, The Good Wife and the UK Office (tie)
    53. Northern Exposure
    54. The Wonder Years
    55. L.A. Law
    56. Sesame Street
    57. Columbo
    58. Fawlty Towers and The Rockford Files (tie)
    60. Freaks and Geeks and Moonlighting (tie)
    62. Roots
    63. Everybody Loves Raymond and South Park (tie)
    65. Playhouse 90
    66. Dexter and the US Office (tie)
    68. My So-Called Life
    69. Golden Girls
    70. The Andy Griffith Show
    71. 24, Roseanne and The Shield
    74. House and Murphy Brown (tie)
    76. Barney Miller and I, Claudius (tie)
    78. The Odd Couple
    79. Alfred Hitchcock Presents, Monty Python’s Flying Circus, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Upstairs, Downstairs (tie)
    83. Get Smart
    84. The Defenders and Gunsmoke (tie)
    86. Justified, Sgt. Bilko/The Phil Silvers Show (tie)
    88. Band of Brothers
    89. Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In
    90. The Prisoner
    91. Absolutely Fabulous and The Muppet Show (tie)
    93. Boardwalk Empire
    94. Will & Grace
    95. Family Ties
    96. Lonesome Dove and Soap
    98. The Fugitive, Late Night with David Letterman and Louie
    101. Oz

    Well, overall it’s not a bad a list, however… Why are Friends and Sex and the City so high? (Or on the list at all, for that matter?) Why are they higher than Buffy or Homicide:LOTS?

    But yeah, the Hound and Gendry switching Starks would be kind of fun in a way.

    Prepare for the spinoff series: Game of Thrones: The Swingin’ Seventies.

  338. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar: I’m not saying anything about the bookseries ;-) Sansan could happen there. But in GoT there is no chance in hell that it will ever happen :)

    I’m not so sure about that. So far the show has depicted desensitized/sanitized versions of Tyrion/Sansa, Cersei/Jaime, Drogo/Dany, Ros/Joff/Bolt and other non-traditional behavior. I don’t believe the show will hesitate for a moment depicting another desensitized/sanitized SanSan encounter (with unexpected results). It’s all in the same ballpark, man. We’ll see how far they take things in S4, won’t we?

  339. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Prepare for the spinoff series: Game of Thrones: The Swingin’ Seventies.

    Jaime with sideburns and in bell-bottoms…

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I have to agree with Veltigar. I can see some sort of chivalrous crush existing between Show!Sandor and Show!Sansa, but that’s about it. (I mean, they’ve drawn parallels between Sandor and Ned. On the show, the Hound is a sort of parental substitute for both Stark girls. In the books, that’s obviously different.)

  340. cosca
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Lord Davos,

    43. Downton Abbey
    88. Band of brothers

    Appalling. Well, at least they got number 1 right

  341. Lord Davos
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    About the writing remember.

  342. Lord Davos
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Well, any list including
    GoT
    I, Claudius
    Friends
    Oz
    South Park
    Sesame anything
    is legit for me
    and these just for impressing
    Wire
    BB
    Sopranos
    Boardwalk
    Twilight zone

  343. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: You just keep telling yourself that.

    Well, it’s good to know that you consider GRRM more ridiculous than the fanficcers. :) That dude is the one who came up with those ships and put them in his books.

    And, speaking of actual statutory rape… Dany/Drogo *cough cough*

    Why would Hannibal be cancelled?

    Don’t get me wrong, I love Hannibal, I think it’s along with The Good Wife the best non-comedy show in a non-cable network. But maybe because of that the ratings were really not that good, and it was a miracle it didn’t get cancelled the first season. I’m convinced that the ratings will fall even further this second season, rendering into an innevitable cancellation. I’m hope I’m wrong though.

    And I don’t think Martin was “shipping” those relationships. We can talk about them though, if you want., but I really haven’t been convinced just yet :)

  344. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Anytime ;)

  345. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Satin:
    I have to agree with Veltigar. I can see some sort of chivalrous crush existing between Show!Sandor and Show!Sansa, but that’s about it. (I mean, they’ve drawn parallels between Sandor and Ned. On the show, the Hound is a sort of parental substitute for both Stark girls. In the books, that’s obviously different.)

    Yes…I can’t really disagree with that, although I would say SanSan & SanArya is more mentorish than parental. Let’s see how far they take SanFinger in S4/S5 and I hope Sansa’s prev encounter with Sandor gives her some inner strength to react appropriately. However, I have my fears…because during S3, they turned Sansa into naive idiot. Shame!

    Famous Sansa book quotes (thoughts from the real Sansa!) worth thinking about:

    “There are no heroes. . . In life, the monsters win.”
    “The Hound is right . . . I am only a little bird, repeating the words they taught me.”
    “My skin has gone from porcelain, to ivory, to steel.”
    “No one will ever marry me for love.”

  346. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Kyle: I’m hoping their scenes are included on the blu-ray, or used in S4.

    Using Google Translate, I didn’t see that, just that he enjoyed the performance of Mord. It would be good to see him again, though.

    Yes, he just says that he enjoyed his performance

    Andrew:
    If that article is accurate and Mord is returning for Season 4, I will bet you almost anything that he takes Marillon’s place in the Vale storyline. Positive. I was hoping he would be back in any case; that actor was hilarious.

    The article is accurate, but not the translation. Mord mb coming back but he doesn’t mention it.

    Lord Davos:
    Well, any list including
    GoT
    I, Claudius
    Friends
    Oz
    South Park
    Sesame anything
    is legit for me
    and these just for impressing
    Wire
    BB
    Sopranos
    Boardwalk
    Twilight zone

    Any list missing Blackadder is wrong :P

    Anyway, I think it would put it more into perspective if it had the shows separated in decades maybe, but some of those positions are way way off imo.

  347. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Yes…I can’t really disagree with that, although I would say SanSan & SanArya is more mentorish than parental. Let’s see how far they take SanFinger in S4/S5 and I hope Sansa’s prev encounter with Sandor gives her some inner strength to react appropriately. However, I have my fears…because during S3, they turned Sansa into naive idiot. Shame!

    Famous Sansa book quotes (thoughts from the real Sansa!) worth thinking about:

    “There are no heroes. . . In life, the monsters win.”
    “The Hound is right . . . I am only a little bird, repeating the words they taught me.”
    “My skin has gone from porcelain, to ivory, to steel.”
    “No one will ever marry me for love.”

    I think The Hound loves Sansa, but for Sansa he’s just a dark fantasy, but that she’ll never go through with it. And thank god ’cause I like him much more than I like her.

    Sansa will become one of the most evil characters in the books, mark my words :)

  348. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Pau:
    Sansa will become one of the most evil characters in the books, mark my words :)

    I think she is destined to be more….assertive. I’m a big fan of the spontaneous combustion going on over at Westeros regarding Sansa’s upcoming “controversial chapter.” Who knows what will happen….but the speculation is fun in lieu of GRRM’s lethargy!

    Ms. Snow…I do believe you know what I’m referring to….(and your passion does add to the conversation, imho! Keep it up! Fight the good fight!….just don’t hurt me…)

  349. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Lord Davos,

    Compared to other HBO series, the writing pales. Namely, The Wire, Deadwood, the Sopranos, True Detective, Carnivale, Six Feet Under, Curb, Girls (yes even Girls, the humor is clever and dark), Veep, Hung, Band of Brothers, S1 of Flight of the Conchords…..

  350. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I think she is destined to be more….assertive.

    That was a brilliant bit of character development for her, I completely missed it on my first read-through, but then it seemed so obvious just how much the Hound’s sharp lessons have impacted on her view of the world. On paper, she is a character you can really understand and indeed sympathise with at times, because George constantly makes it apparent how terrified she is at the possibility of saying anything that’ll put her on a spike next to her father.

    I’m looking forward to seeing her reaction to Sweetrobin’s behaviour, it’s one thing to be an actor, quite another to be acting out a character who is herself acting like she takes pity when all she feels is disgust :)

  351. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Lord Davos:
    Annara Snow,

    About the writing remember.

    I did. I don’t think that the writing on Friends or Sex and the City was that good, especially if one thinks, as I do, that writing isn’t just about one-liners, but about believable characterization with some depth and character development. And Friends stopped being funny after a few seasons, let alone making sense in terms of relationships or characters, who increasingly turned into caricatures of themselves.

    Satin: Jaime with sideburns and in bell-bottoms…

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I have to agree with Veltigar. I can see some sort of chivalrous crush existing between Show!Sandor and Show!Sansa, but that’s about it. (I mean, they’ve drawn parallels between Sandor and Ned. On the show, the Hound is a sort of parental substitute for both Stark girls. In the books, that’s obviously different.)

    Jon drew a parallel between Ygritte and Arya in his head, but that didn’t stop him hooking up with her and falling in love with her.

    And: “Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile.” AGOT, Sansa I (page 145 in the US paperback edition)

    And I don’t think Martin was “shipping” those relationships. We can talk about them though, if you want., but I really haven’t been convinced just yet :)

    According to our friend Wikipedia:

    “Ship- The idea of a relationship between two or more characters”
    “Shipping, derived from the word relationship, is the belief that two people, fictional or non-fictional, would be interesting or believable (or are, or will be, or should be) in a romantic relationship.”

    GRRM is the one who came up with the ‘idea’ for those pairings, not the fans – and he apparently thought that they would be interesting, and wrote those characters having lots and lots of interaction, with ambiguous or less ambiguous romantic overtones. He’s the one who wrote all the “Beauty and the Beast” interractions between Sansa and Sandor Clegane, including her UnKiss mismemory and everything; he wrote Bran having a crush on Meera, and a friendship between Arya and Gendry which may not have explicit romantic undertones, but sure looks like it could be a setup for something like that in the future. In a word, he is the one who’s responsible for those “ships”, just like he is responsible for Jaime/Cersei, Jaime/Brienne, Robb/Jeyne, Dany/Drogo, Dany/Daario etc. That doesn’t mean that those characters will marry one day, have babies and live happily ever after (I doubt that anyone will in this series), or even that they will one day have a night of passion or a hot kiss, but it certainly does mean that Martin wanted to explore certain relationships extensively over multiple books and play with the possibility of romance… so yes, I would say he “ships” them. Many of the people who are labelled as “shippers” of this or that pairing simply enjoy following the storyline, find the romantic possibilities interesting and want to see where the author is taking it. GRRM could have opted for [insert any two random characters who have nothing to do with each other in the books] instead, but he didn’t.

    What I find really amusing about the ASOAIF fandom is that it’s probably the only fandom where you can find people who will look down their nose on fans who enjoy canon storylines GRRM has been exploring , and then attempt to “fix” the writing by coming up with random non-canon pairings of people who haven’t even met and have nothing to do with each other.
    “Stupid shippers! Bah! And anyway, Sansa and Gendry/Jon and Asha/Stannis and Arianne would be so much better!” :)

  352. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Pau: I think The Hound loves Sansa, but for Sansa he’s just a dark fantasy, but that she’ll never go through with it. And thank god ’cause I like him much more than I like her.

    Sansa will become one of the most evil characters in the books, mark my words :)

    Can’t say I have that feeling.

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I actually have a pretty good idea what might be “controversial” about that chapter, and I don’t think it’s what people think at all. It was simply a feeling I had while reading Sansa’s last chapter in AFFC. But we’ll see.

    Annara Snow, I was talking about the show, and that’s just my impression right now. That can totally change in the future. And as I said, in the books it’s different, anyway. (And at least for me, you don’t have to quote anything to prove there is shipping material in the books, I know that. It’s simply a topic that really doesn’t interest me. Unless it’s about the sea- or spacefaring kind of ship, and even then, my enthusiasm is limited.)

  353. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I think she is destined to be more….assertive. I’m a big fan of the spontaneous combustion going on over at Westeros regarding Sansa’s upcoming “controversial chapter.”Who knows what will happen….but the speculation is fun in lieu of GRRM’s lethargy!

    Regarding that… I doubt that any combustion is going to happen. Elio Garcia originally said that he read a chapter that “may be controversial in some corners of the fandom”. That interview was misquoted, overblown and hyped by Vulture in an article where they claimed that he said there was a Sansa chapter which was “sure to be controversial” and started coming up with all sorts of catastrophic and shocking scenarios, from Sansa getting raped to Sansa murdering SR. Elio has since given another interview or two where he clarified that it was a Sansa chapter which has “some stuff in it” that “may be controversial in some corners of the fandom”, but that it’s not necessarily even something that Sansa does or something to do with her.
    (ETA: In one of these interviews, he also seemed to hint that it’s about a “new” character, who may be controversial – but I’m not sure about that; sadly, I’ve only seen a badly Google-translated version of that radio interview, which was given in Spanish, and someone’s attempt to explain what they heard in the original Spanish.)
    “May be” and “in certain corners of the fandom” doesn’t sound like some sort of major outrage. It sounds pretty mild. For comparison, Elio also used that phrase – “may be controversial in some corners of the fandom” – in one of his GoT reviews, referring to Brienne’s line ‘You sound like a bloody woman’.

    ETA: ugh, something went really wrong with the quote function in my previous post…

  354. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    Say it.

  355. Rygar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Book talk book talk book talk.

  356. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Lord Davos,

    Compared to other HBO series, the writing pales.Namely, The Wire, Deadwood, the Sopranos, True Detective, Carnivale, Six Feet Under, Curb, Girls (yes even Girls, the humor is clever and dark), Veep, Hung, Band of Brothers, S1 of Flight of the Conchords…..

    Anything that was brilliant in Season 1 of Carnivale was really undone by the subpar second season. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone praise the writing on Hung. The rest I mostly can’t judge, except for Deadwood, and I think there is little that compares to first and second season of Deadwood. Maybe the first season of Friday Night Lights.

    Pau,

    about Hannibal: LA LA LA, I can’t hear you….

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Mentorish works, absolutely, but the scene in Blackwater explicitly positions Hound as a Ned substitute for Sansa, in the dialogue (“Your father was a killer…” – “You won’t hurt me.” – “No, I won’t hurt you, little bird.”), because he offers to take her to safety, and in the doll, which she holds in her hand (but doesn’t drop, as some reviewers claimed).

    OMG, SanFinger sounds about as icky as it is. But I think she’ll prevail over his, er, urges. Brrr.

  357. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    How are you doing? Getting your torture porn fix? Watching some dragons poo? Casting not-Mads Mickelsen for Euron? Something with a penis?

  358. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Book talk book talk book talk.

    Sorry… here come the spoiler bars…

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    Satin,

    Say it.

    I think she will decide she needs to save Sweetrobin from LF’s clutches, grab the kid and try to make a run for it. With that bounty hunter guy on her heels probably. This would be controversial since all the buildup about Myranda and Harry and whatnot would basically only be good for one chapter, and people seem all hyped up to see her get married to Harry and rule the Vale or something.

  359. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    But where would she go? Wouldn’t it just be wiser to have a nice little talk with Nestor Royce about Littlefinger and letting the rest play off? She has zero chance of surviving in the Vale on her own, let alone with a “sickly” kid to take care of… Her being stolen away by Mad Mouse is possible, though.

  360. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Satin: Anything that was brilliant in Season 1 ofCarnivale was really undone by the subpar second season. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone praise the writing on Hung. The rest I mostly can’t judge, except for Deadwood, and I think there is little that compares to first and second season of Deadwood. Maybe the first season of Friday Night Lights.

    Pau,

    about Hannibal: LA LA LA, I can’t hear you….

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Mentorish works, absolutely, but the scene in Blackwater explicitly positions Hound as a Ned substitute for Sansa, in the dialogue (“Your father was a killer…” – “You won’t hurt me.” – “No, I won’t hurt you, little bird.”), because he offers to take her to safety, and in the doll, which she holds in her hand (but doesn’t drop, as some reviewers claimed).

    OMG, SanFinger sounds about as icky as it is. But I think she’ll prevail over his, er, urges. Brrr.

    I’m not sure if you read my previous post, since I screwed up the quote function pretty badly (that’s what can happen when you try to quote multiple posts…), but characters drawing parallels between someone and their parents/family members doesn’t have to mean that the relationship must be non-romantic.

    Jon drew a parallel between Ygritte and Arya in his head (one of the first favorable things he says about her is that something about her reminds him of Arya), but that didn’t stop him hooking up with her and falling in love with her.

    And then there’s also Jaime… well, Jaime/Cersei is incest to begin with, but GRRM also has Jaime mistake dream!Johanna for Cersei, before realizing who she is. Apparently, they look quite alike, but his sister looking like his mom was not a boner-killer. ;)

    Now, the book quote: “Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile.” AGOT, Sansa I (page 145 in the US paperback edition)
    I quoted this because there’s a Ned/Sandor parallel in the very first mention of Sandor in a Sansa chapter in the books.

    The line about her father being a killer was also in the book, in a previous scene – and he only compared himself to Ned in the book, not to Ned, Robb, Stannis and Sansa’s hypothetical sons, as he does in the show.

    So, the book/show differences when it comes to that aspect aren’t really that big as you suggest.

  361. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    Satin,

    But where would she go? Wouldn’t it just be wiser to have a nice little talk with Nestor Royce about Littlefinger and letting the rest play off? She has zero chance of surviving in the Vale on her own, let alone with a “sickly” kid to take care of… Her being stolen away by Mad Mouse is possible, though.

    Yohn Royce would be a better bet, Nestor Royce is too chummy with LF.

    But maybe those guys will be merged in the show (i.e. no Nestor, Yohn becomes Myranda’s dad?), so the audiences wouldn’t get confused about all those Royces ? That is, if they don’t cut Myranda. The fact that they called another character “Myranda” doesn’t bode well, knowing how afraid they are of having characters with similar names.

  362. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    let’s agree to disagree, then. Different interpretations of scenes can exist next to each other without the universe collapsing. It’s what makes fiction fun!

  363. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Regarding that… I doubt that any combustion is going to happen.

    Yes…I do jest…but whether Elio’s quote was intentional or not, it did stir up a major debate…one totally worth exploring since we don’t know what the fuck Sansa has been up to since 2005!!!!!

  364. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Yohn Royce would be a better bet, Nestor Royce is too chummy with LF.

    But maybe those guys will be merged in the show (i.e. no Nestor, Yohn becomes Myranda’s dad?), so the audiences wouldn’t get confused about all those Royces ? That is, if they don’t cut Myranda. The fact that they called another character “Myranda” doesn’t bode well, knowing how afraid they are of having characters with similar names.

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    Satin,

    But where would she go? Wouldn’t it just be wiser to have a nice little talk with Nestor Royce about Littlefinger and letting the rest play off? She has zero chance of surviving in the Vale on her own, let alone with a “sickly” kid to take care of… Her being stolen away by Mad Mouse is possible, though.

    Good question. I don’t know, but I guess she could try to get out of the Vale? Maybe she can get the Hill Tribes to protect her, she’s the wife of the boss, after all, and she can always say LF kidnapped her or something.

    Mad Mouse it was, thank you.

    About whichever Royce it is: can she really trust them? I had my thoughts about Myranda, too, and I think she may have been questioning her because she suspects that “Alayne” isn’t LF’s daughter but his lover, and that they killed Lysa together – and if Sansa tries to tell someone who she really is and what LF was planning, they’ll believe she’s just trying to remove the blame from herself. Or they could even believe her, but decide she was in on the murder/was complicit in killing Joffrey and hand her over to the Lannisters.

  365. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    But where would she go? Wouldn’t it just be wiser to have a nice little talk with Nestor Royce about Littlefinger and letting the rest play off? She has zero chance of surviving in the Vale on her own, let alone with a “sickly” kid to take care of… Her being stolen away by Mad Mouse is possible, though.

    Poor, poor SweetRobin…I honestly don’t think he has much of chance in TWoW.

    Oh, Sansa, what to do, what to do?
    Oh, Blackfish, where are you?
    Oh, Stranger, shall we pray for you?

    Worlds will collide….or align, my friend.

  366. Veltigar
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Satin: Sorry… here come the spoiler bars…

    I think she will decide she needs to save Sweetrobin from LF’s clutches, grab the kid and try to make a run for it. With that bounty hunter guy on her heels probably. This would be controversial since all the buildup about Myranda and Harry and whatnot would basically only be good for one chapter, and people seem all hyped up to see her get married to Harry and rule the Vale or something.

    Nah, that’s not the controversial part. I think it’s more or less what is going to happen but it will take more than one chapter imo. I think we need to see Sansa being well loved and popular by the people at the Vale Court, building up some friendship and then being introduced to HtH. At first HtH will think “yes, another girl to put a bastard in” but she’ll rebuke him and he’ll become gradually more obsessed by her.

    My preferred scenario: HtH – Sansa will evolve along the lines of Robert – Lyanna (I think painting HtH as a not so perfect young knight would be controversial with some part of the fandom who think HtH is finally there to be her prince. The other thing that I can think of is that they might make Lynn Corbray’s tendencies a bit more explicit). As the story progresses she’ll be less and less willing to marry him I guess. That would give an opportunity to show LF as a bad guy, since he’ll use SR as leverage (e.g. Sansa dear you should really accept HtH’s proposal, because if you do not, I’ll be sick and have no choice but to call up Lynn Corbray to babysit SR) over her

    That will prompt Sansa to engage in some machinations of her own. She’ll start testing her friends to see who she can trust and start a small fellowship. At that moment, Brienne will probably come into the Vale with her surviving men. She’ll go to the Gates of the Moon to seek for Sansa and question LF about any possible leads. This will prompt LF to even up the pressure for a quick marriage.

    Sansa will then make the gamble to reveal herself to Brienne. Both their companies will then try to escape. However, I think someone (Shadrich, Hunt if he still lives or Myranda) to sell out to LF.

    He blocks of all escape routes from the Gates and tries to arrest the company. Cornered the company has no way to go but up, on a daring climb back to the eyrie. Once they arrive there they settle down and prepare to defend themselves. At the bottom of the mountain LF and HtH make a deal. HtH will storm up the Mountain (the valiant young prince), to save his cousin and LF bastards daughter, but a sad accident shall befall SR during fighting, leaving HtH as sole heir to the Vale and free to force Sansa in pretty much every way he wants. Brienne will be made out to be the bad guy, send out by the Lannisters to capture SR.

    That situation will of course soon turn desperate. The Eyrie is a great hold-out and their is food, but they don’t have enough wood to warm them and fighters to man defensive positions.

    When all seems lost they prepare for their last stand. They fall back to the courtyard (cue awesome duel possibilities like Gendry/Brienne vs. Lynn Corbray/HtH) and when all seems lost a dragon falls from the sky. Daenerys has landed in the Vale and just like Visenya she’s come to collect the Vale’s allegiance on dragonback.

    An expansion to this theory is the Burned Men extra. Depending on whether or not Pod survives LS trial, he might serve at an intermediary between Timett and Brienne. Timett and his men can either replace Daenerys as saviours (like Pod escaped and went back to the road) or they can actually get trapped in the Eyrie with them if some sort of contact is astiblished early on (this part will only come into play when there is any truth to the theory that Timett is actually SR heir, because his mother was the elder sister of HtH mother)

    Mads = Euron

  367. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I think she is destined to be more….assertive. I’m a big fan of the spontaneous combustion going on over at Westeros regarding Sansa’s upcoming “controversial chapter.”Who knows what will happen….but the speculation is fun in lieu of GRRM’s lethargy!

    Ms. Snow…I do believe you know what I’m referring to….(and your passion does add to the conversation, imho! Keep it up! Fight the good fight!….just don’t hurt me…)

    I have no idea what you’re talking about :P

    Edit: Reading more comments I guess I do now, just not that interested.

    PS: Regarding the shipping thing, I guess I’m getting old but I find the word appalling and childish. Just because you put 2 characters toguether doesn’t mean you’re “shipping” (yikes) them. Only pairing is worth discussing imo is SanSan, and I already said that I think it will never happen in the books.

  368. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    wow, that sounds pretty awesome. I think I prefer the Burned Men as Surprising Saviours, though, since I don’t think Dany will do a lot of politics in Westeros, but go straight to the Wall with Drogon to stop the Others, maybe even believing she’s Azor Ahai by then.

    Pau: PS: Regarding the shipping thing, I guess I’m getting old but I find the word appalling and childish. Just because you put 2 characters toguether doesn’t mean you’re “shipping” (yikes) them.

    Every subculture has their own kind of slang, and fandom is definitely a subculture (with different variations, even). And the term is really old, I think the X-Philes were the ones who first invented it (or the Trekkies, even?). My point being, it’s really too established to change by now.

    And whether pairings are worth discussing or not: eh, whatever rocks your boat, I think. It’s the fighting I hate. Well, and anything containing Ramsay creeps me out, I really don’t want any part of that.

  369. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Pau: I have no idea what you’re talking about :P

    Arribarà un moment en què els que són bons es fotre al proïsme i els que estan mal donarà ajuda als innocents.

  370. Pau
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    What I mean is that SanSan cannot be further than a “romantic relationship”. For me it’s very, very dark. And tragic. I could go into more detail but I’m afraid it would be censored

  371. Satin
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Pau,

    I suppose for some people that’s the drawing point? I don’t know that there can be many optimists among GoT/ASoIaF shippers, most of the possible or actual couples will likely end in tragedy because GRITTY REALISM.

  372. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar,
    Lots of stuff to chew on, ser. Appreciate the effort.

    I enjoy the bit about Sansa being divisive, rebuffing or playing a few bold men and causing the LD to rebuke and turn on LF, and SR will definitely meet with an “accident” sooner than later. But I would take the escape west, out of the Vale, rather than back to the Eyrie. Give the mountain clans a choice of which group, the escapees or the followers, to decimate.

    MyaS has to play a key role as well, I would assume. And (rhetorically) where the heck is Blackfish? His Vale adventures are not yet done!

  373. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Pau:
    What I mean is that SanSan cannot be further than a “romantic relationship”. For me it’s very, very dark. And tragic. I could go into more detail but I’m afraid it would be censored

    “Romantic” doesn’t have to mean kittens and rainbows and candlelight dinners, you know!

    “Very dark”, “tragic”… You’ve just listed reasons why it’s likely to happen. Remember, it’s ASAOIF we’re talking about. ;)

  374. WompWomp
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Stranger things have happened, right? I found myself wishing Tyrion-Sansa would work out on the show, even though I knew it couldn’t/wouldn’t. Their post-Red Wedding walk together started off so well before the RW news hit. Their union is a product of such awful circumstances, but even then there was the potential for something warming. Romance has little to do with it. I’m not a SanSan shipper myself, but it’s not so far off the mark to hope for something beautiful between two people even in the darkest of arrangements, and I don’t just mean that in a sexual sense.

  375. Kelly
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    so, like others, I’m thinking this season ends with baby Bolton & papa Bolton together and arriving at Winterfell. Jon’s story will most likely end with him being named Lord Comander. So, season 5 will probably cover most of the North storyline from book 5, maybe. I guess they could have the wedding and escape at the end of season 5 and then have them prepare for the battle during season 6 and have the battle happens at the end of 6? Or maybe switch things up and have the battle happen in the middle of season 6? I do not think that book 6 will be out by then so we will see what happens.

    I am very excited to see how the adapt books 4. & 5.

  376. Annara Snow
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    OMG, SanFinger sounds about as icky as it is. But I think she’ll prevail over his, er, urges. Brrr.

    For an alternative ‘ship’ name, how about SaTyr? Sounds appropriate, it can describe Littlefinger when he’s around Sansa. He’s got the goatee, the smirk, the lasciviousness and the overall sexual creepiness. I guess there was a point to the unusual spelling of Petyr, after all…

  377. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 29, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Yeah, I got my names confused. I meant Yohn Royce :)

  378. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 2:12 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow: For an alternative ‘ship’ name, how about SaTyr? Sounds appropriate, it candescribe Littlefinger when he’s around Sansa. He’s got the goatee, the smirk, the lasciviousness and the overall sexual creepiness. I guess there was a point to the unusual spelling of Petyr, after all…

    So…who will kiss who, however inappropriately or not, in order, in GoT S4/S5?

    Dany – Jorah?
    Dany – Daario?
    Sansa – LF?
    Sam – Gilly?
    Joff – Marg?
    RV – Ellaria|Loras?
    Tywin – Shae?
    Arya – HotPie?
    Cersei – Jaime?
    Cersei – MyrishSwamp?
    Ramsay – Yara?
    Arienne – Arys?
    Tommen – Kitten #3?
    Myrcella – Darkstar?
    LS – CH?

  379. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Gilly and the Fat Pink Mast.

  380. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    SaTyr is perfect. It could double for Tyrion in his more lecherous moments with Sansa, too. That poor girl is getting the ugliest view of bad male behaviour at far too young an age.

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Maybe there will finally be a snuggly bear for Tormund? Has anybody heard if Bart the Bear II will reprise his role?

  381. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 4:49 am | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    Satin,

    Hmmm yes there isn’t anything confirmed in the text that makes him evil, but when it’s confirmed that he sent the faceless man to kill Balon, and if the “creaking door” that haunts Aeron is revealed to be childhood abuse then I’ll change my mind. At the moment I wouldn’t call him more morally corrupt than say… Tyrion

    I don’t really see Tommen and Myrcella’s appearance being a big storyline factor seeing as they’re both confirmed to die, and die soon (before Cersei)

    OT: I’m on Joe Abercrombie’s blog… he’s wrote six big fantasy novels in seven years, and is planning to release a whole new trilogy before 2017… if only GRRM could learn

    Aha I’m also there, I love his entries on whiskies (big fan here) and tv series/movies/videogames. The new YA series about vikings sure as hell looks promising. Every book that he’s written has been better than the predecessor.

    Although to be fair his books are not as intrincate as ASOIAF.

  382. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    If you say “beer can” in an English accent it sounds like “bacon” in a Jamaican accent.

  383. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Satin:

    My point being, it’s really too established to change by now.

    It is? ugh…anyway, people can ship whomever they want, I’m just saying that Martin is not….

    Was Nabokov “shipping” Lolita and Humbert Humbert??? Ridiculous!!!! He hated the guy!! “A most hateful name for a most hateful person” he said. He would never advocate (ship, yikes) that relationship in real life.

    Hodor’s Bastard: Arribarà un moment en què els que són bons es fotre al proïsme i els que estan mal donarà ajuda als innocents.

    Gotcha!

    Annara Snow: “Romantic” doesn’t have to mean kittens and rainbows and candlelight dinners, you know!

    “Very dark”, “tragic”… You’ve just listed reasons why it’s likely to happen. Remember, it’s ASAOIF we’re talking about. ;)

    I’m not saying it won’t happen…I’m saying that even if it happens, doesn’t mean that Martin is “shipping” (yikes) the relationship. On the contrary, just like Nabokov I’m sure he doesn’t think very highly of him, and would NEVER put her daughter near that pedophile murderer.

    Regarding Sansa ‘s attraction with the Hound I think Martin is playing with the same concept as to why serial killers get tons of fan letters and marriage proposals…and the fact that most SanSan “shippers” (yikes) are females (as Martin said) touches on that same idea.

    Or maybe she got totally fucked inside by getting brutallized by Joffrey and almost getting gang raped and developed a paraphilia.

  384. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: Regarding Sansa ‘s attraction with the Hound I think Martin is playing with the same concept as to why serial killers get tons of fan letters and marriage proposals…

    I don’t think so, in that case she would have stuck with Joffrey. The Hound did give her very mixed messages, but from the K-L crowd, he was the only one who was basically kind to her, in between the creepiness. And he was the only one who was honest. It’s no wonder she would develop somewhat of a crush from that, and the kiss thing – sexuality is a complicated thing. Just because she believes he kissed her, doesn’t mean she secretly wants to be abused. Sansa was always very imaginative, and she’s using her imagination to navigate the complicated territory of early adolescence. Knowing that even a man as scary as the Hound possesses kindness will help her protect herself against someone like Littlefinger (and presumably some one like HtH, because that guy sounds like a douche.).

    (In addition, fantasizing about someone like the Hound instead of Loras or even Harry the Hair, I mean, Heir makes her a tad rebellious even, since the Hound is neither “appropriate” for a young lady, nor someone LF would want her to think about.)

    That said, I agree with you that GRRM isn’t “shipping” them. He is, however, playing a beauty and the beast variety, and on a basic level, that story is about the necessity of getting to know people beyond the outside. Whatever else Sansa takes from this relationship, she knows that it is worthwhile – and vital! – to look beyond an unappealing exterior – be that looks, status or unusual behaviour – but also to examine carefully what lies below a beautiful surface. And whatever else the Hound gets from it, Sansa showed him that even he was worthy of kindness. I doubt that happened to him all that often.

    (I’m sorry if this interpretation isn’t dark enough for you guys, but I’m not exactly a romantic.)

  385. Veltigar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    Satin:
    Veltigar,

    wow, that sounds pretty awesome. I think I prefer the Burned Men as Surprising Saviours, though, since I don’t think Dany will do a lot of politics in Westeros, but go straight to the Wall with Drogon to stop the Others, maybe even believing she’s Azor Ahai by then.

    Well, you can throw that idea out of the window. GRRM has confirmed that there’s going to be a second Dance of Dragons. So, Faegon vs. Dany is pretty much a given thing

    And in that scenario it’s of course the best thing from a story pov to let Dany land in the Vale

  386. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Well, you can throw that idea out of the window. GRRM has confirmed that there’s going to be a second Dance of Dragons. So, Faegon vs. Dany is pretty much a given thing

    And in that scenario it’s of course the best thing from a story pov to let Dany land in the Vale

    Ugh.

    Sometimes I wonder if there will be a point where the Others cross the Wall all “Hello, guys? We’d like to start the Snowpocalypse now.” but everyone is way too busy squabbling to pay attention to them.

    lol.Maybe that’s Dany’s ultimate role? The saviour who failed. She was to be Azor Ahai, but then she was too busy getting caught up in politics to save the world.

  387. Veltigar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Veltigar,
    Lots of stuff to chew on, ser. Appreciate the effort.

    I enjoy the bit about Sansa being divisive, rebuffing or playing a few bold men and causing the LD to rebuke and turn on LF, and SR will definitely meet with an “accident” sooner than later. But I would take the escape west, out of the Vale, rather than back to the Eyrie. Give the mountain clans a choice of which group, the escapees or the followers, to decimate.

    MyaS has to play a key role as well, I would assume. And (rhetorically) where the heck is Blackfish? His Vale adventures are not yet done!

    I must say that I think SR is going to survive this series ;-) Of course only because Sansa, Brienne, Gendry, etc. saved his ass but he’ll live.

    The Mountain Clans inclusion is a tricky one. For starters we can only rely on the Burned Men (who are the most interesting because of Timet’s mother) and the Black Ears. All the other Clans would still be enemies

    Furthermore, there have been no hints whatsoever about Clan strongholds or fortresses, so they don’t have anything cool to go to. Finally, I think it would be hard to reconnect Sansa and Company to other storylines from there. And to close of the existing ones (I think Varys and LF need to die in the penultimate installment, so that their death can symbolize the end of the game and the real kick-off of the song part of ASOIAF)

    On the other hand, there is the Eyrie scenario. The important thing to note first is that they aren’t planning to go up there. It’s just that their other escape routes have been cut-off (because someone betrayed them) and that’s the only thing to go.

    This Eyrie scenario would give Mya Stone her significance. Since she’s the one who knows the trail the best so she could lead them up there in their flight. Furthermore the Eyrie provides us with a cool location. Everytime it’s featured in both the books and the show someone remarks on how impregnable it really is. I say let’s put that to the test, and the only way to do that is a desperate flight to the top (since it has been evacuated already), because then there is some staffing to fight off attackers

    The move would of course be totally desperate, although they would be able to hold out for a while. There is flesh from the butchered oxen and wheat in the grannary. There’s furniture to burn and clothes to wear.

    A fight over the Eyrie could give us a cool last stand type of moment. This is something that hasn’t been done yet imo (Theon was betrayed before the real fight could kick-off and Jon & Co had a 700 feet wall left between them and the enemy).

    There would be lot’s of kick-ass moments to see down in such a fight. Brienne and Gendry vs. HtH and Lynn Corbray would be two matches I’m rather looking forward to.

    The eyrie would also be a great way to reconnect Sansa and Brienne back with the other storylines. Dany is going to land in Westeros sooner or later. The most likely place to do that, both from a military PoV (the Vale’s port Gulltown was loyal to the Targaryens, the Vale itself is still unpledged and has loads of supplies left. And from the Vale you have a great base to attack KL and the surrounding regions with the added bonus that it’s hard to drive you out again thanks to the Mountains) as from a symbolic PoV (the Vale was where the Andals first landed, it was also the first place Aegon and his sisters succesfully added to their realm)

    From there I could see Dany doing a Visenya and flying over the Vale to the Eyrie in a bold strategy to get them on their side. And so she could serve as the final savior to put an end to the fighting. LF, HtH and Lynn Corbray (if they are still alive) could than be arrested and hanged (Sansa’s testimony would be rather helpful there).

    That way Dany would get the Vale behind her, she would also gain a Stark claimant and more interestingly a highborn maiden. Something that has been sorly lacking from Dany’s storyline is a girl who’s much closer to her in rank whom she could treat as almost an equal (Missandei in the books invokes her feeling as a mother more). Sansa would give that. From there on the story could kick in and lead right to the second Dance of Dragons.

    There’s even a little SR bonus possible. Visenya got the first Arryn on her hand because she offered him a ride. It would be totally hilarious to see Dany offer SR a ride and he pissing himself out of fear (of course GRRM could go the Aenys route but that seems unlikely).

    Of course that doesn’t mean that the Mountain Clans can’t come into play of course. If Pod survives, Brienne could send him out to get Timet and help their escape. In that scenario, they would escape towards the nearest big mountain range. Timet and a couple of his men would come down and guide them into the Mountains and then LF could spring his trap. They flee and see no choice but to go up to the Eyrie (another cool fighter included for the show down)

    As to the BF. He’s nowhere near the Vale. He’s currently chilling in the Neck with HR, MM and GG. Planning a raid on the Twins to get the prisoners out.

    Mads = Euron

  388. Veltigar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Satin: Ugh.

    Sometimes I wonder if there will be a point where the Others cross the Wall all “Hello, guys? We’d like to start the Snowpocalypse now.” but everyone is way too busy squabbling to pay attention to them.

    lol.Maybe that’s Dany’s ultimate role? The saviour who failed. She was to be Azor Ahai, but then she was too busy getting caught up in politics to save the world.

    Who knows. I think we’ll see them start in tWoW probably in one of the last Bran chapters but only the final volume is really going to deal with them.

    Euron = Mads

  389. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Who knows. I think we’ll see them start in tWoW probably in one of the last Bran chapters but only the final volume is really going to deal with them.

    Hmm, I could see that happening. Concerning this conflict, something that stuck with me from one of the earlier books was a dream Dany had. She dreamt she was Rhaegar, but on a dragon, and she was fighting “the usurper and his army” at the trident. Her adversaries were armoured in ice. Now, Jon also had this dream of himself armoured in ice and carrying a sword that glows like Lightbringer is supposed to do, which makes me wonder if “armoured in ice” means “undead.” And continuing from that, if this “usurper” Dany is fighting isn’t Robert, but Aegon, and if it wasn’t a dream but a sort of premonition.

  390. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Veltigar: Well, you can throw that idea out of the window. GRRM has confirmed that there’s going to be a second Dance of Dragons. So, Faegon vs. Dany is pretty much a given thing

    Yes! I can’t believe he confirmed that but I am giddy! The first one turned out so well too! Probably on a smaller scale than the first though. But still, Westeros will burn and the iron throne will melt. The winter will overcome and the survivors will meet in……Winterfell, where we started.

  391. Rygar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Yes but will the show go that route? That’s what y’all should be pondering.

  392. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Yes and No. And Maybe.

  393. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: Was Nabokov “shipping” Lolita and Humbert Humbert??? Ridiculous!!!! He hated the guy!! “A most hateful name for a most hateful person” he said. He would never advocate (ship, yikes) that relationship in real life.

    Really? I read that book and had the impression of an equal, loving relationship.

    I’ll show myself out.

  394. Rygar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Honestly, whatever GRRM has in mind for the last books will differ greatly from D&D more so than the first 5 books did and will.

    Since the show will finish first, “the books are his, the show is theirs”. So I think we need to stray from the source material and start thinking of where D&D are headed and the route they will take to get to, hopefully, the same ending destination. Ain’t that right Georgie Boy?

  395. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    GRRMpkins and snarks. GRRM will finish first.

  396. Rygar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    You, Ser, live life dangerously. I am canceling our trip to Vegas.

  397. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    You wouldn’t DARE. :,(

  398. Annara Snow
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Satin: I don’t think so, in that case she would have stuck with Joffrey. The Hound did give her very mixed messages, but from the K-L crowd, he was the only one who was basically kind to her, in between the creepiness. And he was the only one who was honest. It’s no wonder she would develop somewhat of a crush from that, and the kiss thing – sexuality is a complicated thing. Just because she believes he kissed her, doesn’t mean she secretly wants to be abused. Sansa was always very imaginative, and she’s using her imagination to navigate the complicated territory of early adolescence. Knowing that even a man as scary as the Hound possesses kindness will help her protect herself against someone like Littlefinger (and presumably some one like HtH, because that guy sounds like a douche.).

    (In addition, fantasizing about someone like the Hound instead of Loras or even Harry the Hair, I mean, Heir makes her a tad rebellious even, since the Hound is neither “appropriate” for a young lady, nor someone LF would want her to think about.)

    That said, I agree with you that GRRM isn’t “shipping” them. He is, however, playing a beauty and the beast variety, and on a basic level, that story is about the necessity of getting to know people beyond the outside. Whatever else Sansa takes from this relationship, she knows that it is worthwhile – and vital! – to look beyond an unappealing exterior – be that looks, status or unusual behaviour – but also to examine carefully what lies below a beautiful surface. And whatever else the Hound gets from it, Sansa showed him that even he was worthy of kindness. I doubt that happened to him all that often.

    (I’m sorry if this interpretation isn’t dark enough for you guys, but I’m not exactly a romantic.)

    That’s a pretty good summary.

    I don’t know where people get this idea that Sansa’s attraction to the Hound is a sign of a Stockhome Syndrome or Sansa enjoying abuse or whatever. If that was what was going on with her, she would have remained infatuated with Joffrey, as you point out. Instead, she started hating his guts, right down to being physically disgusted by him, when she finally saw his true colors. She doesn’t like being physically abused or sexually molested, and definitely didn’t enjoy the unwanted “attentions” of Marillion or Littlefinger.

    Her relationship with Sandor, although she was frightened by his constant anger and confused by the unpleasant things he would say, started developing early on when he told her the story of his scars. She initially thought of him as a “monster” (frightening appearance = monstrous) in her first chapter in AGOT (when she thinks that Joffrey, like a knight in the songs, “saved her from the monsters” – i.e. Ilyn Payne and Sandor; very ironic, considering the way Joffrey and Sandor would eventually reverse the roles in her mind, and Joffrey would be the one she would think of as a monster), but her reactions to the story of his horrific and traumatic burning at the age of 6 at the hands of his brother were: compassion (she went from “being afraid of him to being afraid for him”), an attempt to comfort him touching his shoulder and telling him that Gregor was “no true knight”), and, even though he ended the conversation by threatening to kill her if she tells anyone (he had to add that one, after having showed such vulnerability in front of her), the next time we see her, she is rooting for the Hound to win against Jaime at the tournament in her father’s honor. After he saves Loras from Gregor, she immediately asks Ned if the Hound is the champion now – she thought that is what should happen, even before Loras made it happen.

    He sends her very mixed messages indeed, and there is a contrast between his sneering and unpleasant words, and the way he helps her several times and the kindness that she notices in his actions. Pay attention to the way she describes his touch in her internal thoughts, in situations such as when Joffrey orders him to bring her to him, or when he stops her from falling down the stairs, or any other – it’s always some variation of “his strong arms” that are “surprisingly gentle”. Her thoughts about him in A Storm of Swords after he’s gone are very positive, she wishes he were there and thinks she would feel safer with him, keeps his cloak, and wonders where he is. He was one of the few people in KL who were more or less kind to her, and probably the only one who didn’t have an agenda to use her for her name and claim or to get gold, as it turns out Dontos was paid by LF, and the more she feels she is surrounded by liars and that everyone is out to use her for her claim, the more she comes to appreciate his brutal honesty. Especially since she’s stuck with LF – it’s an interesting contrast and conflict to set up in Sansa’s head, since Sandor is the polar opposite of LF, who is all about lies. I also see their relationship in KL as an equal one – he is one of the few people she feels free to talk openly to, instead of hiding behind courtesies (as when they argue and, after he gives her his nihilistic world view, she tells him he is awful and asks him if he’s afraid of going to hell); he is very emotionally unstable, and she is able to comfort him and calm him down at least two times; she understands that some of his worst and most violent behavior was caused by trauma (as when she looks back on his behavior in the night of the Blackwater and realizes it was because of his fire phobia), and she cares about him, even when she’s frustrated by his rage and unpleasantness: she prayed for the Mother to “gentle the rage inside him”. There was also that time she compared him in her mind to an aggressive dog who bites any hand that tries to stroke him, but will die for his masters. Maybe I have a different perspective than most since I am a dog lover (as is Sansa – she likes dogs and bonds with the old blind dog in ASOS), but I think George wrote Sandor as a man with a personality of a dog (just like the Starks are compared to wolves with a reason). Dogs are aggressive either because they were trained to be by their masters, or because they’re afraid themselves, especially if they have been traumatized and badly treated, so they bark and growl to assert themselves and show that you can’t mess with them. I think Sansa was, after a while, not so afraid of Sandor’s barking and growling. ;)

    I think you’re right about the rebelliousness of fantasizing about the Hound – even though Sansa wouldn’t consciously see it as such. There’s that paragraph in ASOS where she first imagines he kissed her and feels that it makes her different from Margaery’s cousins, who she sees as silly little girls that she once used to be. This suggests there’s some unconscious rebellion as well as a desire to feel like an adult – she feels that it’s something that makes her more mature. (But at that point, she was conflicted as she also wished she could still be as naive as them; and, lo and behold, right after that Loras arrives and she starts crushing on him, although it doesn’t last long.) Whatever happens, her feelings for Sandor are tied up to her maturing process in general as well as her developing sexuality. It’s a sign of her learning to look beyond the surface appearances (looks, unpleasant behavior, social status) and also of developing different desires in life; we also see that in the way she is disillusioned with arranged political marriages that everyone is trying to force onto her (unlike the 11-year old Sansa, who wanted to believe that her betrothed was her prince charming) and starts thinking differently about bastards, people of lower birth, or women having socially unconventional relationships (i.e. without being married) such as Ellaria Sand, or Mya Stone; she’s also never shocked by the idea of her mother having slept with LF before her marriage (a lie , of course, but she didn’t know that). We also see that in her appreciation for Lothor Brune, someone she would have looked down her nose on a couple of years before, but now she thinks his honesty, courage and strength are appealing despite his low birth and lack of conventional good looks, and “ships” him hard with Mya.

    I also subscribe to the theory that Sansa’s UnKiss memory is also an unconscious attempt to have a degree of control over her sexuality. She’s in that stage in puberty when kids are developing sexuality and erotic fantasies, and her relationship with Sandor was the closest she ever got to having something like a romance (she pretty much stopped fantasizing about Loras after she realized he wasn’t interested). After Sandor is not around, her mind invents her first kiss, as something sexy and darkly romantic (seriously, that paragraph in AFFC sounds like a teenage girl’s fanfic or a romance novel), and rebellious in its social inappropriateness; while in reality, she’s only being kissed by men who are forced upon her and that she’s not attracted to, and she has very little say in it. It’s particularly interesting that, while she invents a kiss that never happened, she keeps pushing LF’s kisses out of her mind. It’s as if she refuses to see him in a sexual light – even though she’s seen him naked (during the bedding), heard him having sex (with Lysa) and he keeps kissing her against her will. Some other fans have described her Sandor fantasies as an “internal shield” against LF’s attempts to groom her (as well as all the attempts to force her into unwanted marriages), so I expect them to only get more intense.

    Wow, this turned out pretty long…

  399. Pau
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: Really? I read that book and had the impression of an equal, loving relationship.

    I’ll show myself out.

    Yeah…searched for the exact quote:

    Nabokov once said of the name: “The double rumble is, I think, very nasty, very suggestive. It is a hateful name for a hateful person.” The name evokes the Spanish hombre, “man,” and the French ombre, “shadow”. It also suggests a portmanteau of the English words humbug and pervert. Furthermore, the double name hints at the novel’s doppelganger motif.

    Regarding the equal loving relationship part, Humbert refers to himself as a “maniac” who “deprived” Dolores “of her childhood”, and he shortly thereafter states “the most miserable of family lives was better than the parody of incest” in which they were involved.

    Edit: Nevermind, I just realized you were probably kidding

  400. Pau Soriano
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: That’s a pretty good summary.

    I don’t know where people get this idea that Sansa’s attraction to the Hound is a sign of a Stockhome Syndrome or Sansa enjoying abuse or whatever. If that was what was going on with her, she would have remained infatuated with Joffrey, as you point out. Instead, she started hating his guts, right down to being physically disgusted by him, when she finally saw his true colors. She doesn’t like being physically abused or sexually molested, and definitely didn’t enjoy the unwanted “attentions”of Marillion or Littlefinger.

    Her relationship with Sandor, although she was frightened by his constant anger and confused by the unpleasant things he would say, started developing early on when he told her the story of his scars. She initially thought of him as a “monster” (frightening appearance = monstrous) in her first chapter in AGOT (when she thinks that Joffrey, like a knight in the songs, “saved her from the monsters”– i.e. Ilyn Payne and Sandor; very ironic, considering the way Joffrey and Sandor would eventually reverse the roles in her mind, and Joffrey would be the one she would think of as a monster), but her reactions to the story of his horrific and traumatic burning at the age of 6 at the hands of his brother were: compassion (she went from “being afraid of him to being afraid for him”), an attempt to comfort him touching his shoulder and telling him that Gregor was “no true knight”), and, even though he ended the conversation by threatening to kill her if she tells anyone (he had to add that one, after having showed such vulnerability in front of her), the next time we see her, she is rooting for the Hound to win against Jaime at the tournament in her father’s honor. After he saves Loras from Gregor, she immediately asks Ned if the Hound is the champion now – she thought that is what should happen, even before Loras made it happen.

    He sends her very mixed messages indeed, and there is a contrast between his sneering and unpleasant words, and the way he helps her several times and the kindness that she notices in his actions. Pay attention to the way she describes his touch in her internal thoughts, in situations such as when Joffrey orders him to bring her to him, or when he stops her from falling down the stairs, or any other –it’s always some variation of “his strong arms” that are “surprisingly gentle”. Her thoughts about him in A Storm of Swords after he’s gone are very positive, she wishes he were there and thinks she would feel safer with him, keeps his cloak, and wonders where he is. He was one of the few people in KL who were more or less kind to her, and probably the only one who didn’t have an agenda to use her for her name and claim or to get gold, as it turns out Dontos was paid by LF, and the more she feels she is surrounded by liars and that everyone is out to use her for her claim, the more she comes to appreciate his brutal honesty. Especially since she’s stuck with LF – it’s an interesting contrast and conflict to set up in Sansa’s head, since Sandor is the polar opposite of LF, who is all about lies. I also see their relationship in KL as an equal one – he is one of the few people she feels free to talk openly to, instead of hiding behind courtesies (as when they argue and, after he gives her his nihilistic world view, she tells him he is awful and asks him if he’s afraid of going to hell); he is very emotionally unstable, and she is able to comfort him and calm him down at least two times; she understands that some of his worst and most violent behavior was caused by trauma (as when she looks back on his behavior in the night of the Blackwater and realizes it was because of his fire phobia), and she cares about him, even when she’s frustrated by his rage and unpleasantness: she prayed for the Mother to “gentle the rage inside him”. There was also that time she compared him in her mind to an aggressive dog who bites any hand that tries to stroke him, but will die for his masters. Maybe I have a different perspective than most since I am a dog lover (as is Sansa – she likes dogs and bonds with the old blind dog in ASOS), but I think George wrote Sandor as a man with a personality of a dog (just like the Starks are compared to wolves with a reason). Dogs are aggressive either because they were trained to be by their masters, or because they’re afraid themselves, especially if they have been traumatized and badly treated, so they bark and growl to assert themselves and show that you can’t mess with them. I think Sansa was, after a while, not so afraid of Sandor’s barking and growling. ;)

    I think you’re right about the rebelliousness of fantasizing about the Hound – even though Sansa wouldn’t consciously see it as such. There’s that paragraph in ASOS where she first imagines he kissed her and feels that it makes her different from Margaery’s cousins, who she sees as silly little girls that she once used to be. This suggests there’s some unconscious rebellion as well as a desire to feel like an adult – she feels that it’s something that makes her more mature. (But at that point, she was conflicted as she also wished she could still be as naive as them; and, lo and behold, right after that Loras arrives and she starts crushing on him, although it doesn’t last long.) Whatever happens, her feelings for Sandor are tied up to her maturing process in general as well as her developing sexuality. It’s a sign of her learning to look beyond the surface appearances (looks, unpleasant behavior, social status) and also of developing different desires in life; we also see that in the way she is disillusioned with arranged political marriages that everyone is trying to force onto her (unlike the 11-year old Sansa, who wanted to believe that her betrothed was her prince charming) and starts thinking differently about bastards, people of lower birth, or women having socially unconventional relationships (i.e. without being married) such as Ellaria Sand, or Mya Stone; she’s also never shocked by the idea of her mother having slept with LF before her marriage (a lie , of course, but she didn’t know that). We also see that in her appreciation for Lothor Brune, someone she would have looked down her nose on a couple of years before, but now she thinks his honesty, courage and strength are appealing despite his low birth and lack of conventional good looks, and “ships” him hard with Mya.

    I also subscribe to the theory that Sansa’s UnKiss memory is also an unconscious attempt to have a degree of control over her sexuality. She’s in that stage in puberty when kids are developing sexuality and erotic fantasies, and her relationship with Sandor was the closest she ever got to having something like a romance (she pretty much stopped fantasizing about Loras after she realized he wasn’t interested). After Sandor is not around, her mind invents her first kiss, as something sexy and darkly romantic (seriously, that paragraph in AFFC sounds like a teenage girl’s fanfic or a romance novel), and rebellious in its social inappropriateness; while in reality, she’s only being kissed by men who are forced upon her and that she’s not attracted to, and she has very little say in it. It’s particularly interesting that, while she invents a kiss that never happened, she keeps pushing LF’s kisses out of her mind. It’s as if she refuses to see him in a sexual light – even though she’s seen him naked (during the bedding), heard him having sex (with Lysa) and he keeps kissing her against her will. Some other fans have described her Sandor fantasies as an “internal shield” against LF’s attempts to groom her (as well as all the attempts to force her into unwanted marriages), so I expect them to only get more intense.

    Wow, this turned out pretty long…

    You’ve clearly giving this a lot of though, and I may even change my mind and agree 100% with this, but even if it’s al true, why would you want to see those 2 toguether when it can’t be good for either of them? Sadism? :P

    And it still doesn’t mean that Martin is “shipping” (yikes) them.

  401. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    very good points. I totally agree. It’s an important point you make about her taking charge of her own sexuality in her fantasy about the kiss. And I like the idea of thoughts of the Hound being a shield for her. I also remember the part where she keeps the old dog for company – is that in Littlefinger’s own house, or later in the Eyrie? It seemed pretty obvious that he was sort of similar not only to Lady, but to the Hound as well.

  402. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,
    Holy mutha-fuckin’ shit, Ms Snow!

    Brevity. I will leave it at that.

  403. Rygar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Question. With the very few scenes we have with the Hound and Sansa, when did they kiss?

  404. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Pau: Yeah…searched for the exact quote:

    Nabokov once said of the name: “The double rumble is, I think, very nasty, very suggestive. It is a hateful name for a hateful person.”The name evokes the Spanish hombre, “man,” and the French ombre, “shadow”. It also suggests a portmanteau of the English words humbug and pervert. Furthermore, the double name hints at the novel’s doppelganger motif.

    Regarding the equal loving relationship part, Humbert refers to himself as a “maniac” who “deprived” Dolores “of her childhood”, and he shortly thereafter states “the most miserable of family lives was better than the parody of incest” in which they were involved.

    Edit: Nevermind, I just realized you were probably kidding

    I was, yeah. I tend to dead-pan these things, rather than attach #sarcasm to everything. Gets me in trouble at times. I was also trying to perhaps parody Neil Patrick Harris’s womanizing character on “How I Met Your Mother,” who identifies with antagonists, not protagonists, and who at one point, when considering a relationship with a distant relation, “Well, King Joffrey’s parents were brother and sister, and he is a just and fair ruler.”

  405. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Question.With the very few scenes we have with the Hound and Sansa, when did they kiss?

    They didn’t. Sansa edited a kiss into her memory of the scene in her bedroom during Stannis’ attack on King’s Landing. (Hound actually remembers it wrong, too, I think? )

    The point is mostly that this is not about Sansa finally losing it, she’s making sense of a stressful situation and her developing sexuality by using her imagination.

  406. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    This is really, really nicely stated. I do agree with others who do not see GRRM as “shipping” the two or even implying that there could be a relationship, but the way you’ve broken down how perceptions change, both as people get older and mature, and then more directly when you contrast the appearances of Joffrey (who is described as very beautiful, in a way) and Sandor Clegane (not).

  407. Annara Snow
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    Satin:
    Annara Snow,

    very good points. I totally agree. It’s an important point you make about her taking charge of her own sexuality in her fantasy about the kiss. And I like the idea of thoughts of the Hound being a shield for her. I also remember the part where she keeps the old dog for company – is that in Littlefinger’s own house, or later in the Eyrie? It seemed pretty obvious that he was sort of similar not only to Lady, but to the Hound as well.

    It’s in LF’s home. She even calls him “you sad old hound” at one point. Not very subtle, George…

    Satin:

    No, he doesn't remember a kiss – he tells Arya that Sansa sang for him, but later when he’s “dying”, he admits he forced her to sing: “I took the song from her, she never gave it”. <There's no mention of any kiss.

  408. Rygar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Satin: They didn’t. Sansa edited a kiss into her memory of the scene in her bedroom during Stannis’ attack on King’s Landing. (Hound actually remembers it wrong, too, I think? )

    The point is mostly that this is not about Sansa finally losing it, she’s making sense of a stressful situation and her developing sexuality by using her imagination.

    Oh OK. So you are basing these assumptions off the show or the books? Because it seems to be a stretch from the three scenes we had with them.

  409. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I’m talking about Book!Sansa, totally. And not to be nitpicky, but these aren’t assumptions, they are interpretations of the text as I read it.

    (The scene during Blackwater is completely different on the show, i believe largely because the book version is very ambivalent, and really difficult to translate without making the Hound come across as rapey.)

    On the show, they’ve basically left out most of the Hound’s inappropriate creepiness towards Sansa – aside from one or two scenes in Season One where he leers at her – and only have him be rough to her on occasion. What remains is his honesty towards her, and his protectiveness – when he supports her against Joffrey during the situation with Dontos for instance, and during the riot of course.

    As for the development of her sexuality, that works different on the show, certainly. We’ve seen her crushes so far, and we know that she’s far less worldly and thus more naive than Margaery or Shae, but at the same time obviously educated enough that she knows what is expected of her in her wedding night (and it’s to Catelyn’s credit I think that she doesn’t actually seem to be overly afraid of that part, just unwilling because she isn’t attracted to or in love with Tyrion.)

  410. Rygar
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Thanks. Got confused being that this is a site about the show and I definitely didn’t get a love vibe from either party toward each other. More like the Hound is protective of Sansa torment by Joffery, probably due to his own self being bullied by his much stronger and older brother.

    I think they have other sites where you can discuss GRRMs ambiguous text in all glorified dorky detail. :)

  411. Satin
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I get your meaning, sir or madam. Sometimes the excitement runs away with me when I meet people who actually want to discuss the books instead of stating over and over how much better they are than the show. ;)

    And Hound being a bullying victim who helps a fellow sufferer on the show makes a lot of sense I think. Although I believe there is affection there, too, in his odd, cranky way. Similarly I think Sansa at least respects him, and likely appreciates that he is not a snake like so many others. I wonder if she’ll find out that Shae has been Tyrion’s lover for quite a while on the show? Because I believe that might sour her trust in Shae really quickly.

  412. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted January 30, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    OMG casting news!

    Jason Isaacs is Euron and…
    Mads Mickelsen is fake Arya!!!!

    Bold move, HBO, but I like it!

  413. Randa
    Posted February 1, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic,

    I better be there! It of course depends on my contribution to the story in future books, which I think has potential. Why go through all the trouble explaining my awesomeness in detail and how I give Petyr pause only to not use said awesomeness to help out my new bestie Sansa?

  1. […] will there be enough material for Theon for next year, if The Winds of Winter isn’t released?Source.They are going to burn through material so fast and GRRM has no one to blame but himself when the […]

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